Hidden Camera Investigations | 60 Minutes Full Episodes

Throughout its history, 60 Minutes has Throughout its history, 60 Minutes has reported on stories that have sometimes reported on stories that have sometimes reported on stories that have sometimes led to hidden camera exposees and led to hidden camera exposees and led to hidden camera exposees and correspondence going undercover. In the correspondence going undercover. In the correspondence going undercover. In the next hour, we'll take a look back at next hour, we'll take a look back at next hour, we'll take a look back at some of these investigations, some of these investigations, some of these investigations, starting with this Scott P report from starting with this Scott P report from starting with this Scott P report from 2012 that found conmen offering fake 2012 that found conmen offering fake 2012 that found conmen offering fake stem cell cures for incurable illnesses. stem cell cures for incurable illnesses. stem cell cures for incurable illnesses. There's no greater desperation than to There's no greater desperation than to There's no greater desperation than to be told that you or your child has a be told that you or your child has a be told that you or your child has a disease for which there is no hope. Many disease for which there is no hope. Many disease for which there is no hope. Many people with incurable illness look people with incurable illness look people with incurable illness look forward to the promise of stem cells. forward to the promise of stem cells. forward to the promise of stem cells. Stem cells have the potential to turn Stem cells have the potential to turn Stem cells have the potential to turn into any kind of cell and in theory they into any kind of cell and in theory they into any kind of cell and in theory they could repair damaged cells. Though could repair damaged cells. Though could repair damaged cells. Though scientists tell us that we're years away scientists tell us that we're years away scientists tell us that we're years away from realizing that dream, there's no from realizing that dream, there's no from realizing that dream, there's no stem cell miracle today. So conmen have stem cell miracle today. So conmen have stem cell miracle today. So conmen have moved in to offer the hope that science moved in to offer the hope that science moved in to offer the hope that science cannot. Just look online and you will cannot. Just look online and you will cannot. Just look online and you will find hundreds of credible looking find hundreds of credible looking find hundreds of credible looking websites offering stem cell cures in websites offering stem cell cures in websites offering stem cell cures in overseas clinics. Two years ago, we overseas clinics. Two years ago, we overseas clinics. Two years ago, we began investigating stem cell began investigating stem cell began investigating stem cell charlatans. We worked with patients charlatans. We worked with patients charlatans. We worked with patients suffering from incurable diseases and we suffering from incurable diseases and we suffering from incurable diseases and we discovered conmen posing as doctors discovered conmen posing as doctors discovered conmen posing as doctors conducting dangerous medical conducting dangerous medical conducting dangerous medical experiments.

experiments. experiments. >> You know, Mr. So, the trouble is that >> You know, Mr. So, the trouble is that >> You know, Mr. So, the trouble is that you're a con man. you're a con man. you're a con man. >> Our report started a federal >> Our report started a federal >> Our report started a federal investigation. investigation. investigation. Since that story, we've been digging Since that story, we've been digging Since that story, we've been digging into the rapidly growing trade in fake into the rapidly growing trade in fake into the rapidly growing trade in fake stem cell cures. And we found something stem cell cures. And we found something stem cell cures. And we found something even more alarming. Illegal stem cell even more alarming. Illegal stem cell even more alarming. Illegal stem cell transplants that are dangerous and transplants that are dangerous and transplants that are dangerous and delivered to your doorstep. They're delivered to your doorstep. They're delivered to your doorstep. They're scams that often built the desperate out scams that often built the desperate out scams that often built the desperate out of their last dollar of savings and of their last dollar of savings and of their last dollar of savings and their last ounce of hope. their last ounce of hope. their last ounce of hope. I know you're tired. I know you're tired. I know you're tired. >> Adam and Brandon Susser are 11-year-old >> Adam and Brandon Susser are 11-year-old >> Adam and Brandon Susser are 11-year-old twins. Adam has cable palsy. His brain twins. Adam has cable palsy. His brain twins. Adam has cable palsy. His brain was damaged by a lack of oxygen before was damaged by a lack of oxygen before was damaged by a lack of oxygen before he and his brother were born. he and his brother were born. he and his brother were born. >> He's confined to a wheelchair. He needs >> He's confined to a wheelchair. He needs >> He's confined to a wheelchair. He needs assistance with all his daily living assistance with all his daily living assistance with all his daily living activities from uh cleanliness to activities from uh cleanliness to activities from uh cleanliness to feeding to clothing. feeding to clothing. feeding to clothing. >> Gary and Judy Susser have searched for >> Gary and Judy Susser have searched for >> Gary and Judy Susser have searched for anything that might improve on the anything that might improve on the anything that might improve on the judgment handed down by Adam's doctors. judgment handed down by Adam's doctors. judgment handed down by Adam's doctors. The sentence of being a quadriplegic, The sentence of being a quadriplegic, The sentence of being a quadriplegic, the sentence of being totally blind, the the sentence of being totally blind, the the sentence of being totally blind, the pronouncement by physicians that we pronouncement by physicians that we pronouncement by physicians that we should put him away.

should put him away. should put him away. >> Those were the things that his regular >> Those were the things that his regular >> Those were the things that his regular doctors were telling you. doctors were telling you. doctors were telling you. >> Correct. We we were being advised >> Correct. We we were being advised >> Correct. We we were being advised literally to put him away. He's going to literally to put him away. He's going to literally to put him away. He's going to destroy your life. destroy your life. destroy your life. >> So back in 2003, the Sussers took a >> So back in 2003, the Sussers took a >> So back in 2003, the Sussers took a chance on the theory of stem cells. Adam chance on the theory of stem cells. Adam chance on the theory of stem cells. Adam was three. They brought him to a doctor was three. They brought him to a doctor was three. They brought him to a doctor in Mexico who injected stem cells with in Mexico who injected stem cells with in Mexico who injected stem cells with no idea whether they would work. no idea whether they would work. no idea whether they would work. >> We both decided that in the severity of >> We both decided that in the severity of >> We both decided that in the severity of his condition that um we'd have to try his condition that um we'd have to try his condition that um we'd have to try it. it. it. >> Apparently, there was no harm and no >> Apparently, there was no harm and no >> Apparently, there was no harm and no miracle. miracle. miracle. >> The progress that he made after that was >> The progress that he made after that was >> The progress that he made after that was minimal at best and therefore we didn't minimal at best and therefore we didn't minimal at best and therefore we didn't see any good coming out of it. Today, see any good coming out of it. Today, see any good coming out of it. Today, people like the Sussers can find people like the Sussers can find people like the Sussers can find hundreds of sophisticated websites hundreds of sophisticated websites hundreds of sophisticated websites offering stem cell treatments for every offering stem cell treatments for every offering stem cell treatments for every hopeless disease. hopeless disease. hopeless disease. >> I see how people are prayed upon by >> I see how people are prayed upon by >> I see how people are prayed upon by huers and charlatans. And people who huers and charlatans. And people who huers and charlatans. And people who have a special child, don't need any have a special child, don't need any have a special child, don't need any more expense, don't need any more more expense, don't need any more more expense, don't need any more heartache, and don't need any more false heartache, and don't need any more false heartache, and don't need any more false promises. They need the truth, and they promises. They need the truth, and they promises. They need the truth, and they need hope. had a boy.

need hope. had a boy. need hope. had a boy. >> To help us learn the truth about the >> To help us learn the truth about the >> To help us learn the truth about the elicit stem cell industry, the Sussers elicit stem cell industry, the Sussers elicit stem cell industry, the Sussers agreed to work with us in an agreed to work with us in an agreed to work with us in an investigation of one stem cell investigation of one stem cell investigation of one stem cell laboratory. We focused on steech labs of laboratory. We focused on steech labs of laboratory. We focused on steech labs of Ecuador because it offers cures for Ecuador because it offers cures for Ecuador because it offers cures for cereable palsy and a long list of 70 cereable palsy and a long list of 70 cereable palsy and a long list of 70 incurable diseases. The website claims a incurable diseases. The website claims a incurable diseases. The website claims a modern-day medical miracle and says, "We modern-day medical miracle and says, "We modern-day medical miracle and says, "We are FDA registered, apparent approval are FDA registered, apparent approval are FDA registered, apparent approval from the Food and Drug Administration." from the Food and Drug Administration." from the Food and Drug Administration." The founder and director of Steech Labs The founder and director of Steech Labs The founder and director of Steech Labs is an Alabama doctor named Dan Ecklund. is an Alabama doctor named Dan Ecklund. is an Alabama doctor named Dan Ecklund. We've been tracking Dr. Ecklund for We've been tracking Dr. Ecklund for We've been tracking Dr. Ecklund for months. months. months. >> Hello. Is Dan Ecklund there, please? >> Hello. Is Dan Ecklund there, please? >> Hello. Is Dan Ecklund there, please? >> In October, we asked the Sussers to >> In October, we asked the Sussers to >> In October, we asked the Sussers to contact Dr. Ecklund. Ecklund sent them a contact Dr. Ecklund. Ecklund sent them a contact Dr. Ecklund. Ecklund sent them a letter which offered the blind and letter which offered the blind and letter which offered the blind and paralyzed Adam the possibility of an paralyzed Adam the possibility of an paralyzed Adam the possibility of an improved level of consciousness, improved level of consciousness, improved level of consciousness, improved ability to see, to speak, to improved ability to see, to speak, to improved ability to see, to speak, to stand, and walk.

stand, and walk. stand, and walk. >> What can stem cells really do today? We >> What can stem cells really do today? We >> What can stem cells really do today? We asked a scientist who's doing some of asked a scientist who's doing some of asked a scientist who's doing some of the world's most advanced studies in the world's most advanced studies in the world's most advanced studies in stem cells, Dr. Joanne Kurts. I believe stem cells, Dr. Joanne Kurts. I believe stem cells, Dr. Joanne Kurts. I believe stem cells have a lot of promise, but we stem cells have a lot of promise, but we stem cells have a lot of promise, but we are way at the infancy because real stem are way at the infancy because real stem are way at the infancy because real stem cells are very difficult to control as cells are very difficult to control as cells are very difficult to control as therapy. I personally think we're 10 therapy. I personally think we're 10 therapy. I personally think we're 10 years away from seeing real cell years away from seeing real cell years away from seeing real cell therapies that are working and are safe, therapies that are working and are safe, therapies that are working and are safe, but I do believe it will come. but I do believe it will come. but I do believe it will come. >> Dr. Kurtzburg is a physician and the >> Dr. Kurtzburg is a physician and the >> Dr. Kurtzburg is a physician and the chief scientific officer of a stem cell chief scientific officer of a stem cell chief scientific officer of a stem cell research program at Duke University. She research program at Duke University. She research program at Duke University. She advises the federal government and is advises the federal government and is advises the federal government and is the co-director of this multi-million the co-director of this multi-million the co-director of this multi-million dollar laboratory which works with stem dollar laboratory which works with stem dollar laboratory which works with stem cells harvested from umbilical cord cells harvested from umbilical cord cells harvested from umbilical cord blood. Dr. Kurtsburg told us there is no blood. Dr. Kurtsburg told us there is no blood. Dr. Kurtsburg told us there is no evidence yet that stem cells can treat evidence yet that stem cells can treat evidence yet that stem cells can treat cereble pulsy. cereble pulsy. cereble pulsy. >> Some of the diseases that we see stem >> Some of the diseases that we see stem >> Some of the diseases that we see stem cell cures offered for on the internet cell cures offered for on the internet cell cures offered for on the internet include multiple sclerosis. There are no include multiple sclerosis. There are no include multiple sclerosis. There are no stem cell cures yet for multiple stem cell cures yet for multiple stem cell cures yet for multiple sclerosis.

sclerosis. sclerosis. >> Lou Garri's disease. >> Lou Garri's disease. >> Lou Garri's disease. >> I wish there were, but there are not. >> I wish there were, but there are not. >> I wish there were, but there are not. >> You know, I wonder how often it happens >> You know, I wonder how often it happens >> You know, I wonder how often it happens that you have to tell a patient, "I'm that you have to tell a patient, "I'm that you have to tell a patient, "I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do." And sorry, there's nothing we can do." And sorry, there's nothing we can do." And then they come back to you two days then they come back to you two days then they come back to you two days later and say, "Well, I see all these later and say, "Well, I see all these later and say, "Well, I see all these cures on the internet." cures on the internet." cures on the internet." >> I get many of those calls and emails and >> I get many of those calls and emails and >> I get many of those calls and emails and see many of those patients. But it's see many of those patients. But it's see many of those patients. But it's very dishonest to mislead people when very dishonest to mislead people when very dishonest to mislead people when there's nothing you can do. But there's there's nothing you can do. But there's there's nothing you can do. But there's a lot that can be done for Adam Susser. a lot that can be done for Adam Susser. a lot that can be done for Adam Susser. At least according to Dr. Ecklund, who At least according to Dr. Ecklund, who At least according to Dr. Ecklund, who spoke to the Sussers from his lab in spoke to the Sussers from his lab in spoke to the Sussers from his lab in Ecuador. Ecuador. Ecuador. >> Say hello to Dr. Dan. >> Say hello to Dr. Dan. >> Say hello to Dr. Dan. Adam, Adam, Adam, >> can you see him, Doc? >> can you see him, Doc? >> can you see him, Doc? >> Dr. Ecklund's only examination of Adam >> Dr. Ecklund's only examination of Adam >> Dr. Ecklund's only examination of Adam came by teleconference. Ecklund didn't came by teleconference. Ecklund didn't came by teleconference. Ecklund didn't know. We were watching. know. We were watching. know. We were watching. >> You think it would help him, you know, >> You think it would help him, you know, >> You think it would help him, you know, make him improve? make him improve? make him improve? >> I think it's likely to help him. Yes. I >> I think it's likely to help him. Yes. I >> I think it's likely to help him. Yes. I would say 75% chance that it that he would have a 75% chance that it that he would have a noticeable improvement.

noticeable improvement. noticeable improvement. >> Eklan proposed four treatments costing a >> Eklan proposed four treatments costing a >> Eklan proposed four treatments costing a total of $20,000. total of $20,000. total of $20,000. The Sussers asked Ekan to treat Adam The Sussers asked Ekan to treat Adam The Sussers asked Ekan to treat Adam near their Florida home. near their Florida home. near their Florida home. >> Again, my concern would be the >> Again, my concern would be the >> Again, my concern would be the legalities of it. He's right to be legalities of it. He's right to be legalities of it. He's right to be concerned it would be a felony to use concerned it would be a felony to use concerned it would be a felony to use stem cells in an unapproved therapy or stem cells in an unapproved therapy or stem cells in an unapproved therapy or to sell them for export to the US. to sell them for export to the US. to sell them for export to the US. That's why we were surprised to see this That's why we were surprised to see this That's why we were surprised to see this on many websites, a shopping cart. We on many websites, a shopping cart. We on many websites, a shopping cart. We clicked on Eklund Stem Tech Labs cart clicked on Eklund Stem Tech Labs cart clicked on Eklund Stem Tech Labs cart and with no medical or scientific and with no medical or scientific and with no medical or scientific credentials, we bought 20 million credentials, we bought 20 million credentials, we bought 20 million umbilical cord stem cells for $5,000. umbilical cord stem cells for $5,000. umbilical cord stem cells for $5,000. shipped to America. shipped to America. shipped to America. We had the cells sent by the highest We had the cells sent by the highest We had the cells sent by the highest medical standard. Duke University medical standard. Duke University medical standard. Duke University suggested we use something called a dry suggested we use something called a dry suggested we use something called a dry shipper cooled with liquid nitrogen. We shipper cooled with liquid nitrogen. We shipper cooled with liquid nitrogen. We sent the dry shipper to Stimch. Stech sent the dry shipper to Stimch. Stech sent the dry shipper to Stimch. Stech sent the frozen cells to us and we sent the frozen cells to us and we sent the frozen cells to us and we forwarded them to Joanne Kurtsburg. A forwarded them to Joanne Kurtsburg. A forwarded them to Joanne Kurtsburg. A computer chip inside our package computer chip inside our package computer chip inside our package verified that the cells were properly verified that the cells were properly verified that the cells were properly frozen all the way. Dr. Dr. Kurtsburg frozen all the way. Dr. Dr. Kurtsburg frozen all the way. Dr. Dr. Kurtsburg analyzed the cells. For comparison, look analyzed the cells. For comparison, look analyzed the cells. For comparison, look under the microscope. Healthy umbilical under the microscope. Healthy umbilical under the microscope. Healthy umbilical cord stem cells look like this. The cord stem cells look like this. The cord stem cells look like this. The cells we got from STEM had cells we got from STEM had cells we got from STEM had disintegrated.

disintegrated. disintegrated. >> So these are the cells you purchased and >> So these are the cells you purchased and >> So these are the cells you purchased and they are dying or dead. they are dying or dead. they are dying or dead. >> We see all of these dead and >> We see all of these dead and >> We see all of these dead and disintegrating cells and essentially disintegrating cells and essentially disintegrating cells and essentially cellular debris. cellular debris. cellular debris. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Are there dangers of injecting that into >> Are there dangers of injecting that into >> Are there dangers of injecting that into someone? There are huge dangers if you someone? There are huge dangers if you someone? There are huge dangers if you injected that into someone's blood or injected that into someone's blood or injected that into someone's blood or spinal fluid because all these little spinal fluid because all these little spinal fluid because all these little fragments and debris would get trapped fragments and debris would get trapped fragments and debris would get trapped somewhere in the bloodstream and could somewhere in the bloodstream and could somewhere in the bloodstream and could cause a stroke or in the brain could cause a stroke or in the brain could cause a stroke or in the brain could cause an inflammatory reaction. cause an inflammatory reaction. cause an inflammatory reaction. >> This could actually do harm. >> This could actually do harm. >> This could actually do harm. >> Yes, this could do a great deal of harm. >> Yes, this could do a great deal of harm. >> Yes, this could do a great deal of harm. >> Remember the Sussers asked Dr. for Eklan >> Remember the Sussers asked Dr. for Eklan >> Remember the Sussers asked Dr. for Eklan to treat Adam in the US. And last month, to treat Adam in the US. And last month, to treat Adam in the US. And last month, he got out of a van to meet Gary Susser he got out of a van to meet Gary Susser he got out of a van to meet Gary Susser at a Florida hotel where Eklan planned at a Florida hotel where Eklan planned at a Florida hotel where Eklan planned to do the transplant. We dug into Dr. to do the transplant. We dug into Dr. to do the transplant. We dug into Dr. Ecklan's background, and we found things Ecklan's background, and we found things Ecklan's background, and we found things that he hadn't told the Sussers. This is that he hadn't told the Sussers. This is that he hadn't told the Sussers. This is the document in which the state of the document in which the state of the document in which the state of Alabama revoked his medical license in Alabama revoked his medical license in Alabama revoked his medical license in 2005. The state medical commission said 2005. The state medical commission said 2005. The state medical commission said Dr. Ecklund admitted that he prescribed Dr. Ecklund admitted that he prescribed Dr. Ecklund admitted that he prescribed controlled substances to a patient with controlled substances to a patient with controlled substances to a patient with whom he was having sex, prescribed whom he was having sex, prescribed whom he was having sex, prescribed controlled substances to a patient who controlled substances to a patient who controlled substances to a patient who he knew was a drug addict, and had he knew was a drug addict, and had he knew was a drug addict, and had sexual experiences with young female sexual experiences with young female sexual experiences with young female children. We also tracked down his children. We also tracked down his children. We also tracked down his laboratory in Ecuador, not exactly the laboratory in Ecuador, not exactly the laboratory in Ecuador, not exactly the state-of-the-art facility claimed in his state-of-the-art facility claimed in his state-of-the-art facility claimed in his website.

website. website. The hotel room Gary Susser and Dan The hotel room Gary Susser and Dan The hotel room Gary Susser and Dan Ecklund headed for was set up with a Ecklund headed for was set up with a Ecklund headed for was set up with a number of cameras that were tucked out number of cameras that were tucked out number of cameras that were tucked out of sight. Susser excused himself. of sight. Susser excused himself. of sight. Susser excused himself. Ecklund was expecting to meet Judy and Ecklund was expecting to meet Judy and Ecklund was expecting to meet Judy and Adam, the blind and paralyzed Adam, the blind and paralyzed Adam, the blind and paralyzed 11-year-old in whom he intended to 11-year-old in whom he intended to 11-year-old in whom he intended to transplant stem cells, cells from his transplant stem cells, cells from his transplant stem cells, cells from his lab that sold us the dangerous biomed lab that sold us the dangerous biomed lab that sold us the dangerous biomed junk. Instead, we came in. junk. Instead, we came in. junk. Instead, we came in. >> Dr. >> Dr. >> Dr. I'm Scott P with 60 Minutes. I'm Scott P with 60 Minutes. I'm Scott P with 60 Minutes. >> Well, great. >> Well, great. >> Well, great. >> How are you today? >> How are you today? >> How are you today? >> I am uh >> we've been working with the Sussers on a >> we've been working with the Sussers on a story and and I want you to know that story and and I want you to know that story and and I want you to know that we're being recorded and I wanted to ask we're being recorded and I wanted to ask we're being recorded and I wanted to ask you about the treatment that you you about the treatment that you you about the treatment that you proposed for Adam. What would that be? proposed for Adam. What would that be? proposed for Adam. What would that be? >> The treatment that he asked about >> The treatment that he asked about >> The treatment that he asked about was for stem cells, human stem cells. was for stem cells, human stem cells. was for stem cells, human stem cells. And you think they're applicable for And you think they're applicable for And you think they're applicable for cereble palsy? cereble palsy? cereble palsy? >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in cases of cable palsy.

cases of cable palsy. cases of cable palsy. >> How does that work exactly? uh excuse me here. uh excuse me here. No one knows exactly. Okay. But stem No one knows exactly. Okay. But stem No one knows exactly. Okay. But stem stem cells do contain and give off stem cells do contain and give off stem cells do contain and give off chemicals which cause other cells to chemicals which cause other cells to chemicals which cause other cells to repair themselves. repair themselves. repair themselves. >> In the letter that you sent to Sussers, >> In the letter that you sent to Sussers, >> In the letter that you sent to Sussers, you described possible effects for Adam you described possible effects for Adam you described possible effects for Adam which could include improved ability to which could include improved ability to which could include improved ability to see, improved ability to speak, improved see, improved ability to speak, improved see, improved ability to speak, improved ability to move arms and legs. You ability to move arms and legs. You ability to move arms and legs. You believe those things are possible? believe those things are possible? believe those things are possible? >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. What is your training in stem cells? What is your training in stem cells? What is your training in stem cells? >> My training in stem cells was I studied >> My training in stem cells was I studied >> My training in stem cells was I studied for about six years going over the for about six years going over the for about six years going over the literature literature literature and then I started producing stems stem and then I started producing stems stem and then I started producing stems stem cells in my lab.

cells in my lab. cells in my lab. >> You're self-educated, self-taught. >> You're self-educated, self-taught. >> You're self-educated, self-taught. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Have you published any research? >> Have you published any research? >> Have you published any research? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Frankly, Dr. Eglund, you have nothing to >> Frankly, Dr. Eglund, you have nothing to >> Frankly, Dr. Eglund, you have nothing to base your results on. There's no base your results on. There's no base your results on. There's no clinical trial. There's no there's no clinical trial. There's no there's no clinical trial. There's no there's no blind study. There are no medical papers blind study. There are no medical papers blind study. There are no medical papers published. published. published. >> That doesn't make any difference. >> That doesn't make any difference. >> That doesn't make any difference. >> You know, you say it doesn't make any >> You know, you say it doesn't make any >> You know, you say it doesn't make any difference that you haven't done these difference that you haven't done these difference that you haven't done these studies. I would imagine studies. I would imagine studies. I would imagine >> studies have been done in other >> studies have been done in other >> studies have been done in other countries. countries. countries. >> I would imagine it would make a big >> I would imagine it would make a big >> I would imagine it would make a big difference to the sessors. difference to the sessors. difference to the sessors. >> The studies have been done in other >> The studies have been done in other >> The studies have been done in other countries. These are not published in countries. These are not published in countries. These are not published in the United States because they cannot be the United States because they cannot be the United States because they cannot be published in the United States. published in the United States. published in the United States. >> Where is this seen in the medical >> Where is this seen in the medical >> Where is this seen in the medical literature anywhere in the world? If you literature anywhere in the world? If you literature anywhere in the world? If you did the things that you describe in this did the things that you describe in this did the things that you describe in this paper, you would win the Nobel Prize. paper, you would win the Nobel Prize. paper, you would win the Nobel Prize. >> No. If I did the things that are >> No. If I did the things that are >> No. If I did the things that are described in that paper, it would not be described in that paper, it would not be described in that paper, it would not be published. It would be suppressed published. It would be suppressed published. It would be suppressed >> and you wouldn't see you wouldn't hear >> and you wouldn't see you wouldn't hear >> and you wouldn't see you wouldn't hear about it. about it. about it. >> Eklan told us breakthroughs with stem >> Eklan told us breakthroughs with stem >> Eklan told us breakthroughs with stem cells aren't published in scientific cells aren't published in scientific cells aren't published in scientific journals because of a conspiracy of drug journals because of a conspiracy of drug journals because of a conspiracy of drug companies and governments that he had companies and governments that he had companies and governments that he had trouble defining. That's when we told trouble defining. That's when we told trouble defining. That's when we told him we bought cells from his lab. When him we bought cells from his lab. When him we bought cells from his lab. When your cells are delivered, they're your cells are delivered, they're your cells are delivered, they're functioning living stem cells.

functioning living stem cells. functioning living stem cells. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> We purchased some stem cells from steech >> We purchased some stem cells from steech >> We purchased some stem cells from steech labs 6 months or so ago labs 6 months or so ago labs 6 months or so ago >> and had them delivered to uh Duke >> and had them delivered to uh Duke >> and had them delivered to uh Duke University which did tests on the stem University which did tests on the stem University which did tests on the stem cells and they determined that the stem cells and they determined that the stem cells and they determined that the stem cells were dead. cells were dead. cells were dead. >> Well, they must not have handled them >> Well, they must not have handled them >> Well, they must not have handled them appropriately. appropriately. appropriately. You're thinking that you handled them You're thinking that you handled them You're thinking that you handled them appropriately, but the stem cell appropriately, but the stem cell appropriately, but the stem cell laboratories at Duke University did not. laboratories at Duke University did not. laboratories at Duke University did not. >> That would be my assumption. Yeah. >> That would be my assumption. Yeah. >> That would be my assumption. Yeah. >> I don't think that there's any chance >> I don't think that there's any chance >> I don't think that there's any chance they were um damaged in chipment. they were um damaged in chipment. they were um damaged in chipment. >> We asked Dr. Kurtsburg to listen to >> We asked Dr. Kurtsburg to listen to >> We asked Dr. Kurtsburg to listen to Eklan's theories. Eklan's theories. Eklan's theories. >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in >> Uh yes, I have seen them be effective in cases of cerebopal paly. This is pretty cases of cerebopal paly. This is pretty cases of cerebopal paly. This is pretty scary actually that he would be saying scary actually that he would be saying scary actually that he would be saying these things that he would be leading these things that he would be leading these things that he would be leading them on this way because what he's them on this way because what he's them on this way because what he's talking about is very dangerous. talking about is very dangerous. talking about is very dangerous. >> Is this a con, Dr. Eglund? >> Is this a con, Dr. Eglund? >> Is this a con, Dr. Eglund? >> No, it's not a con.

I have taken the stem cells myself. I have taken the stem cells myself. Would I take the stem cells if I thought Would I take the stem cells if I thought Would I take the stem cells if I thought that they were a con? that they were a con? that they were a con? No. No. No. putting them in an 11-year-old boy is an putting them in an 11-year-old boy is an putting them in an 11-year-old boy is an entirely a different matter. entirely a different matter. entirely a different matter. >> That's why I >> That's why I >> That's why I uh took care to explain uh took care to explain uh took care to explain the remotest possible difficulties the remotest possible difficulties the remotest possible difficulties which have never been reported which have never been reported which have never been reported >> without >> without >> without any medical studies that have been any medical studies that have been any medical studies that have been published in major major journals that published in major major journals that published in major major journals that have suggested that stem cells have any have suggested that stem cells have any have suggested that stem cells have any efficacy. You keep going back to this efficacy. You keep going back to this efficacy. You keep going back to this point point point >> that they are not published in in major >> that they are not published in in major >> that they are not published in in major ethic in major medical journals. I'm ethic in major medical journals. I'm ethic in major medical journals. I'm telling you telling you telling you >> it is the standard of the world. I do >> it is the standard of the world. I do >> it is the standard of the world. I do keep going to that point. keep going to that point. keep going to that point. >> I'm telling you that they are not going >> I'm telling you that they are not going >> I'm telling you that they are not going to be published in this country because to be published in this country because to be published in this country because when someone does try to do it then they when someone does try to do it then they when someone does try to do it then they have 60 minutes come and visit them. have 60 minutes come and visit them. have 60 minutes come and visit them. And I think that's enough for me. Thank And I think that's enough for me. Thank And I think that's enough for me. Thank you.

We don't know where Dan Ecklund went, We don't know where Dan Ecklund went, but we do know the whereabouts of the but we do know the whereabouts of the but we do know the whereabouts of the two conmen who were the subjects of our two conmen who were the subjects of our two conmen who were the subjects of our first stem cell story two years ago. In first stem cell story two years ago. In first stem cell story two years ago. In that investigation, we worked with that investigation, we worked with that investigation, we worked with patients Steven Waters and Michael patients Steven Waters and Michael patients Steven Waters and Michael Martin, who suffered with ALS, also Martin, who suffered with ALS, also Martin, who suffered with ALS, also known as Lou Garri's disease. They were known as Lou Garri's disease. They were known as Lou Garri's disease. They were promised miracles from Lawrence Stowe promised miracles from Lawrence Stowe promised miracles from Lawrence Stowe and Frank Morales who offered a $125,000 stem cell therapy. stem cell therapy. >> What? Keep me out of a wheelchair. >> What? Keep me out of a wheelchair. >> What? Keep me out of a wheelchair. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. >> Our story launched a federal >> Our story launched a federal >> Our story launched a federal investigation and last week, Morales and investigation and last week, Morales and investigation and last week, Morales and Stowe were indicted. The indictment Stowe were indicted. The indictment Stowe were indicted. The indictment alleges they made $1.5 million with stem alleges they made $1.5 million with stem alleges they made $1.5 million with stem cell fraud. If convicted, they could cell fraud. If convicted, they could cell fraud. If convicted, they could face 20 years in prison. The patients face 20 years in prison. The patients face 20 years in prison. The patients who helped us, Steven Waters and Michael who helped us, Steven Waters and Michael who helped us, Steven Waters and Michael Martin, lost their lives to ALS last Martin, lost their lives to ALS last Martin, lost their lives to ALS last spring. We will continue our reporting spring. We will continue our reporting spring. We will continue our reporting on the stem cell fraud tomorrow on our on the stem cell fraud tomorrow on our on the stem cell fraud tomorrow on our brand new morning broadcast, CBS This brand new morning broadcast, CBS This brand new morning broadcast, CBS This Morning.

In 1991, Steve Croft went undercover to In 1991, Steve Croft went undercover to investigate a group of youth. used car investigate a group of youth. used car investigate a group of youth. used car wholesalers who were rolling back wholesalers who were rolling back wholesalers who were rolling back odometers and selling them off to odometers and selling them off to odometers and selling them off to unsuspected buyers. When Croft told the unsuspected buyers. When Croft told the unsuspected buyers. When Croft told the con artists they were on camera, he con artists they were on camera, he con artists they were on camera, he said, "The good news is we're not cops. said, "The good news is we're not cops. said, "The good news is we're not cops. The bad news is we're 60 Minutes." The bad news is we're 60 Minutes." The bad news is we're 60 Minutes." When a used car dealer tells you that a When a used car dealer tells you that a When a used car dealer tells you that a car is a real cream puff, almost like car is a real cream puff, almost like car is a real cream puff, almost like new with low mileage, hang on to your new with low mileage, hang on to your new with low mileage, hang on to your wallet. The car may have been around the wallet. The car may have been around the wallet. The car may have been around the block a lot more times than the block a lot more times than the block a lot more times than the odometer, the mileage meter shows. odometer, the mileage meter shows. odometer, the mileage meter shows. Sellers turned back that clock to make Sellers turned back that clock to make Sellers turned back that clock to make buyers think the car is in better shape buyers think the car is in better shape buyers think the car is in better shape than it really is. And in Houston 9 than it really is. And in Houston 9 than it really is. And in Houston 9 months ago, we saw how easily it's done. months ago, we saw how easily it's done. months ago, we saw how easily it's done. >> There are two ways to do this. I'm going >> There are two ways to do this. I'm going >> There are two ways to do this. I'm going to do it the easy way. to do it the easy way. to do it the easy way. >> This is not a demonstration for our >> This is not a demonstration for our >> This is not a demonstration for our television camera. What you're watching television camera. What you're watching television camera. What you're watching is a crime in progress. This man is is a crime in progress. This man is is a crime in progress. This man is adding about $2,000 to the value of this adding about $2,000 to the value of this adding about $2,000 to the value of this 1985 Buick by losing 50,000 miles off 1985 Buick by losing 50,000 miles off 1985 Buick by losing 50,000 miles off the odometer. In the used car business, the odometer. In the used car business, the odometer. In the used car business, it's called busting miles or whipping it's called busting miles or whipping it's called busting miles or whipping miles.

miles. miles. >> Where you grab them has a whole lot to >> Where you grab them has a whole lot to >> Where you grab them has a whole lot to do with how they turn up. do with how they turn up. do with how they turn up. >> He doesn't know we're taping him. We set >> He doesn't know we're taping him. We set >> He doesn't know we're taping him. We set up a hidden camera in a nearby van up a hidden camera in a nearby van up a hidden camera in a nearby van before he arrived. He charges $50 a car before he arrived. He charges $50 a car before he arrived. He charges $50 a car and expects to make $400 today tax-free. and expects to make $400 today tax-free. and expects to make $400 today tax-free. And he didn't even start until after And he didn't even start until after And he didn't even start until after lunch. These are the men who hired him, lunch. These are the men who hired him, lunch. These are the men who hired him, John Hazes and Charles Vance, two former John Hazes and Charles Vance, two former John Hazes and Charles Vance, two former used car dealers who invited us down to used car dealers who invited us down to used car dealers who invited us down to Houston to help expose the crooks. Houston to help expose the crooks. Houston to help expose the crooks. >> As far as odometer rollback men >> As far as odometer rollback men >> As far as odometer rollback men themselves, the person that does the themselves, the person that does the themselves, the person that does the mechanics of it, there's uh I would say mechanics of it, there's uh I would say mechanics of it, there's uh I would say 50 in town. 50 in town. 50 in town. >> Find them in the yellow pages. No, but >> Find them in the yellow pages. No, but >> Find them in the yellow pages. No, but you can pick up the phone and do it. We you can pick up the phone and do it. We you can pick up the phone and do it. We did it. did it. did it. >> We had them waiting in line to do it. >> We had them waiting in line to do it. >> We had them waiting in line to do it. >> The reason Charles Vance and John Hazlet >> The reason Charles Vance and John Hazlet >> The reason Charles Vance and John Hazlet know so much about the used car business know so much about the used car business know so much about the used car business is they were in it for 20 years until is they were in it for 20 years until is they were in it for 20 years until they got fed up and quit. They told us they got fed up and quit. They told us they got fed up and quit. They told us so many of their competitors were so many of their competitors were so many of their competitors were rolling back miles. There was no way to rolling back miles. There was no way to rolling back miles. There was no way to survive in the business without doing survive in the business without doing survive in the business without doing the same thing. Houston police told us the same thing. Houston police told us the same thing. Houston police told us they were trustworthy and reliable. The they were trustworthy and reliable. The they were trustworthy and reliable. The way the business is right now is way the business is right now is way the business is right now is completely dominated and controlled by completely dominated and controlled by completely dominated and controlled by milebusters, which has inflated the car milebusters, which has inflated the car milebusters, which has inflated the car prices to a certain level that a prices to a certain level that a prices to a certain level that a legitimate wholesaler cannot operate in legitimate wholesaler cannot operate in legitimate wholesaler cannot operate in it. One of the first people Charles and it. One of the first people Charles and it. One of the first people Charles and John introduced us to was Bill Whitlo, John introduced us to was Bill Whitlo, John introduced us to was Bill Whitlo, the heavy set fellow and the boss hog the heavy set fellow and the boss hog the heavy set fellow and the boss hog hat. He's been a used car wholesaler for hat. He's been a used car wholesaler for hat. He's been a used car wholesaler for 40 years and is called the granddaddy of 40 years and is called the granddaddy of 40 years and is called the granddaddy of the Houston Milebusters.

the Houston Milebusters. the Houston Milebusters. Whit Low will buy a trade in from a used Whit Low will buy a trade in from a used Whit Low will buy a trade in from a used car dealer, roll back the miles, then car dealer, roll back the miles, then car dealer, roll back the miles, then sell it to a different dealer. Our sell it to a different dealer. Our sell it to a different dealer. Our camera was hidden across the street when camera was hidden across the street when camera was hidden across the street when Whitlo began bragging about the tens of Whitlo began bragging about the tens of Whitlo began bragging about the tens of thousands of miles he's rolled off these thousands of miles he's rolled off these thousands of miles he's rolled off these cars. cars. cars. >> That one was 65. >> That one was 65. >> That one was 65. >> 65. What's on it now? >> 65. What's on it now? >> 65. What's on it now? >> And that one was 70. I know what they >> And that one was 70. I know what they >> And that one was 70. I know what they were. were. were. >> And they're 40 and 40 now. >> And they're 40 and 40 now. >> And they're 40 and 40 now. >> Let's see what they got. >> Let's see what they got. >> Let's see what they got. >> This got 39 >> This got 39 >> This got 39 >> 39,000. and then got 42. >> 39,000. and then got 42. >> 39,000. and then got 42. >> But rolling back the miles is only half >> But rolling back the miles is only half >> But rolling back the miles is only half the trick. The title has to be forged to the trick. The title has to be forged to the trick. The title has to be forged to match the new odometer reading. Charles match the new odometer reading. Charles match the new odometer reading. Charles and John told Whitlo that they already and John told Whitlo that they already and John told Whitlo that they already had somebody who could forge the titles. had somebody who could forge the titles. had somebody who could forge the titles. Whit Low said he could do it better and Whit Low said he could do it better and Whit Low said he could do it better and probably cheaper. probably cheaper. probably cheaper. >> What they've been charging? >> What they've been charging? >> What they've been charging? >> 200 a cop. >> 200 a cop. >> 200 a cop. >> Oh, damn. >> Oh, damn. >> Oh, damn. >> I ain't going to tell you who's doing >> I ain't going to tell you who's doing >> I ain't going to tell you who's doing mine. mine. mine. >> Well, how much will you charge me? I >> Well, how much will you charge me? I >> Well, how much will you charge me? I don't want to know who's doing it. don't want to know who's doing it. don't want to know who's doing it. >> $100 a cop. >> $100 a cop. >> $100 a cop. >> Damn. We'll go for that. What about >> Damn. We'll go for that. What about >> Damn. We'll go for that. What about immedately? immedately? immedately? >> What about if John gives you like 30 of >> What about if John gives you like 30 of >> What about if John gives you like 30 of them a week? Any cheaper?

them a week? Any cheaper? them a week? Any cheaper? >> We'll make a deal. Okay. Well, you'll >> We'll make a deal. Okay. Well, you'll >> We'll make a deal. Okay. Well, you'll handle them all. handle them all. handle them all. >> So, Charles gave Whit Low a title and >> So, Charles gave Whit Low a title and >> So, Charles gave Whit Low a title and asked him to forge it, lowering the asked him to forge it, lowering the asked him to forge it, lowering the odometer reading by 60,000 m. odometer reading by 60,000 m. odometer reading by 60,000 m. >> When Whit Low brought the finished >> When Whit Low brought the finished >> When Whit Low brought the finished product by the next day, we had the product by the next day, we had the product by the next day, we had the camera concealed behind a wall in camera concealed behind a wall in camera concealed behind a wall in Charles and John's office. I put on Charles and John's office. I put on Charles and John's office. I put on sunglasses and posed as a friend of sunglasses and posed as a friend of sunglasses and posed as a friend of theirs who might want to invest $100,000 theirs who might want to invest $100,000 theirs who might want to invest $100,000 in Whit Low's roll back operation. in Whit Low's roll back operation. in Whit Low's roll back operation. >> He's already changed the miles and you >> He's already changed the miles and you >> He's already changed the miles and you can virtually not detect it either. can virtually not detect it either. can virtually not detect it either. >> I ain't never had a one kick back on. I >> I ain't never had a one kick back on. I >> I ain't never had a one kick back on. I guess I've been lucky, but I guess I guess I've been lucky, but I guess I guess I've been lucky, but I guess I ain't ain't ain't >> either. Good. Just good work. >> either. Good. Just good work. >> either. Good. Just good work. >> Yeah, good work. >> Yeah, good work. >> Yeah, good work. >> Good work and plenty of it. Plenty of >> Good work and plenty of it. Plenty of >> Good work and plenty of it. Plenty of titles, plenty of cars. titles, plenty of cars. titles, plenty of cars. >> How many of these you do a month? >> How many of these you do a month? >> How many of these you do a month? >> Good month. I'll do 75 myself. >> Good month. I'll do 75 myself. >> Good month. I'll do 75 myself. >> Whitlo claims he makes less than $1,000 >> Whitlo claims he makes less than $1,000 >> Whitlo claims he makes less than $1,000 a car, but that's still pretty good a car, but that's still pretty good a car, but that's still pretty good money. How much money does he make a money. How much money does he make a money. How much money does he make a month? month? month? >> I say an average month you'll make >> I say an average month you'll make >> I say an average month you'll make 50 grand. 50 grand. 50 grand. >> 50 grand?

>> 50 grand? >> 50 grand? >> Yeah. See, I'm not as fast as I used to >> Yeah. See, I'm not as fast as I used to >> Yeah. See, I'm not as fast as I used to be. I know. be. I know. be. I know. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> The best part of it for Whit Low is he >> The best part of it for Whit Low is he >> The best part of it for Whit Low is he says the $50,000 a month is all says the $50,000 a month is all says the $50,000 a month is all tax-free. where I ain't filed income tax tax-free. where I ain't filed income tax tax-free. where I ain't filed income tax myself in 13 years or [clears throat] 15 myself in 13 years or [clears throat] 15 myself in 13 years or [clears throat] 15 years. [laughter] >> But there's no wholesaler stand in this >> But there's no wholesaler stand in this town that's making money. It's not town that's making money. It's not town that's making money. It's not whipping miles. Is that true? [snorts] whipping miles. Is that true? [snorts] whipping miles. Is that true? [snorts] >> I don't know. None. >> I don't know. None. >> I don't know. None. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> This is not exactly legal, right? >> This is not exactly legal, right? >> This is not exactly legal, right? >> What? >> What? >> What? >> This is not exactly legal, right? What's >> This is not exactly legal, right? What's >> This is not exactly legal, right? What's the downside? I want to know what the the downside? I want to know what the the downside? I want to know what the downside is. downside is. downside is. >> It's not exactly legal. No, it's not. >> It's not exactly legal. No, it's not. >> It's not exactly legal. No, it's not. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] We found this Bill Whit low special on We found this Bill Whit low special on We found this Bill Whit low special on the used car lot of Russell and Smith the used car lot of Russell and Smith the used car lot of Russell and Smith Ford, a 1987 Aerostar van, a real cream Ford, a 1987 Aerostar van, a real cream Ford, a 1987 Aerostar van, a real cream puff and only 52,000 miles according to puff and only 52,000 miles according to puff and only 52,000 miles according to the odometer. But Charles Vance and John the odometer. But Charles Vance and John the odometer. But Charles Vance and John Hazlet have been tracking this van. When Hazlet have been tracking this van. When Hazlet have been tracking this van. When Bill Whitlo bought it from another Bill Whitlo bought it from another Bill Whitlo bought it from another Houston dealer, it had 131,000 miles on Houston dealer, it had 131,000 miles on Houston dealer, it had 131,000 miles on it. When he resold it to Russell and it. When he resold it to Russell and it. When he resold it to Russell and Smith Ford, 80,000 miles had vanished.

Smith Ford, 80,000 miles had vanished. Smith Ford, 80,000 miles had vanished. With our cameras hidden, we asked the With our cameras hidden, we asked the With our cameras hidden, we asked the salesman about the van. salesman about the van. salesman about the van. >> 52,000 miles? Yes, sir. >> You know, I just figured out who this >> You know, I just figured out who this man looks like. man looks like. man looks like. You look like that guy that does that 60 You look like that guy that does that 60 You look like that guy that does that 60 Minutes thing on TV. Minutes thing on TV. Minutes thing on TV. >> You do. You look like that guy. >> You do. You look like that guy. >> You do. You look like that guy. >> Steve Croft. >> Steve Croft. >> Steve Croft. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> How you doing? >> How you doing? >> How you doing? >> Your name is >> Your name is >> Your name is >> Braymond Mesa. >> Braymond Mesa. >> Braymond Mesa. >> Raymond. Nice to meet you. >> Raymond. Nice to meet you. >> Raymond. Nice to meet you. >> Not Steve Croft. >> Not Steve Croft. >> Not Steve Croft. >> I am. No, you're not. I am. >> I am. No, you're not. I am. >> I am. No, you're not. I am. >> What would you say, Raymond, if I told >> What would you say, Raymond, if I told >> What would you say, Raymond, if I told you that this car had 131,000 miles on you that this car had 131,000 miles on you that this car had 131,000 miles on it? it? it? >> I'd say you could show me. >> I'd say you could show me. >> I'd say you could show me. >> So, we showed him an odometer statement >> So, we showed him an odometer statement >> So, we showed him an odometer statement proving that when the van was sold to proving that when the van was sold to proving that when the van was sold to Bill Whitlo, it had 80,000 more miles on Bill Whitlo, it had 80,000 more miles on Bill Whitlo, it had 80,000 more miles on it. That surprised me. it. That surprised me. it. That surprised me. >> And so did our camera. >> And so did our camera. >> And so did our camera. >> That's amazing. >> General sales manager Vincent Alfano and >> General sales manager Vincent Alfano and used car manager Tom Delissi agreed that used car manager Tom Delissi agreed that used car manager Tom Delissi agreed that the van had been rolled back. Okay, we the van had been rolled back. Okay, we the van had been rolled back. Okay, we uh of course we probably took it on a uh of course we probably took it on a uh of course we probably took it on a trade in and people trade them in sign trade in and people trade them in sign trade in and people trade them in sign an odometer statement stating the actual an odometer statement stating the actual an odometer statement stating the actual miles that you know on the car.

miles that you know on the car. miles that you know on the car. >> We don't follow the people around for >> We don't follow the people around for >> We don't follow the people around for years. We just take part on trade and years. We just take part on trade and years. We just take part on trade and >> have you ever heard of a gentleman by >> have you ever heard of a gentleman by >> have you ever heard of a gentleman by the name of Bill Whitlo? the name of Bill Whitlo? the name of Bill Whitlo? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Yes, I do. Yeah. >> Yes, I do. Yeah. >> Yes, I do. Yeah. >> You you know Bill Whitllo? >> You you know Bill Whitllo? >> You you know Bill Whitllo? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think you bought this vehicle from >> Uh I think you bought this vehicle from >> Uh I think you bought this vehicle from Bill Whitllo Bill Whitllo Bill Whitllo >> 73 number. It's possible. Suppose I told >> 73 number. It's possible. Suppose I told >> 73 number. It's possible. Suppose I told you that Bill Whitlo told us just about you that Bill Whitlo told us just about you that Bill Whitlo told us just about an hour ago that u the only cars the an hour ago that u the only cars the an hour ago that u the only cars the only cars he ever sells are all had only cars he ever sells are all had only cars he ever sells are all had their odometers turned back. their odometers turned back. their odometers turned back. >> Would that surprise you? >> Would that surprise you? >> Would that surprise you? >> Yes, it would. >> Yes, it would. >> Yes, it would. >> Maybe he really was surprised, but Bill >> Maybe he really was surprised, but Bill >> Maybe he really was surprised, but Bill Whitlo had told us earlier that most Whitlo had told us earlier that most Whitlo had told us earlier that most dealers suspect his cars have been dealers suspect his cars have been dealers suspect his cars have been rolled back. rolled back. rolled back. >> Well, they have an idea. They don't want >> Well, they have an idea. They don't want >> Well, they have an idea. They don't want to know it. You know, they they got an to know it. You know, they they got an to know it. You know, they they got an idea. Yeah. idea. Yeah. idea. Yeah. >> No, that's not true cuz I do not know >> No, that's not true cuz I do not know >> No, that's not true cuz I do not know that. He's the only one in town that that. He's the only one in town that that. He's the only one in town that wouldn't know if he didn't. wouldn't know if he didn't. wouldn't know if he didn't. >> I mean, it's just common knowledge. You >> I mean, it's just common knowledge. You >> I mean, it's just common knowledge. You know, flies gather on horses. Bill Whit know, flies gather on horses. Bill Whit know, flies gather on horses. Bill Whit low hit miles. low hit miles. low hit miles. >> Vance and Hazlet say it's not that >> Vance and Hazlet say it's not that >> Vance and Hazlet say it's not that difficult for a dealer to find out if a difficult for a dealer to find out if a difficult for a dealer to find out if a car has been rolled back. The dealer can car has been rolled back. The dealer can car has been rolled back. The dealer can check its title history, even its check its title history, even its check its title history, even its service record.

service record. service record. >> You could have taken five more minutes. >> You could have taken five more minutes. >> You could have taken five more minutes. You could have taken the serial number You could have taken the serial number You could have taken the serial number from this car, punched it into your from this car, punched it into your from this car, punched it into your computer, found out the last time this computer, found out the last time this computer, found out the last time this car was serviced, who owned the car, and car was serviced, who owned the car, and car was serviced, who owned the car, and what the mileage was, right? what the mileage was, right? what the mileage was, right? I don't know. I imagine that's possible. I don't know. I imagine that's possible. I don't know. I imagine that's possible. >> But authorities say few dealers make the >> But authorities say few dealers make the >> But authorities say few dealers make the effort. effort. effort. >> They bring it in. It looks like it's got >> They bring it in. It looks like it's got >> They bring it in. It looks like it's got 52,000 miles on it. Looks pretty clean. 52,000 miles on it. Looks pretty clean. 52,000 miles on it. Looks pretty clean. >> You don't see any reason to check. >> You don't see any reason to check. >> You don't see any reason to check. >> You don't want to know if it's more. >> You don't want to know if it's more. >> You don't want to know if it's more. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> In my opinion, it's his obligation and >> In my opinion, it's his obligation and >> In my opinion, it's his obligation and his job to check that car. And if a man his job to check that car. And if a man his job to check that car. And if a man has been in the car business for 20 has been in the car business for 20 has been in the car business for 20 years like he said he had, and he can't years like he said he had, and he can't years like he said he had, and he can't tell the difference between 131,000 mi tell the difference between 131,000 mi tell the difference between 131,000 mi and 52,000 mi, he needs to get another and 52,000 mi, he needs to get another and 52,000 mi, he needs to get another job. job. job. What percentage of the cars sitting on What percentage of the cars sitting on What percentage of the cars sitting on used car lots used car lots used car lots have had their odometers rolled back? have had their odometers rolled back? have had their odometers rolled back? >> I'd say 40% of the cars. >> I'd say 40% of the cars. >> I'd say 40% of the cars. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> I was going to say 50 out of 200 >> I was going to say 50 out of 200 >> I was going to say 50 out of 200 definitely in cases that I've definitely in cases that I've definitely in cases that I've investigated myself. investigated myself. investigated myself. >> How many Bill Whitlos are there in >> How many Bill Whitlos are there in >> How many Bill Whitlos are there in Houston? Houston? Houston? >> Only one Bill Whitlo. If you ask me how >> Only one Bill Whitlo. If you ask me how >> Only one Bill Whitlo. If you ask me how many mile busters there are in Houston, many mile busters there are in Houston, many mile busters there are in Houston, let's say there's probably uh uh 15 let's say there's probably uh uh 15 let's say there's probably uh uh 15 large ones and a lot of small ones. a large ones and a lot of small ones. a large ones and a lot of small ones. a lot of small ones.

lot of small ones. lot of small ones. >> At Greens Point Dodge, we found a red >> At Greens Point Dodge, we found a red >> At Greens Point Dodge, we found a red Toronto that had been whipped by another Toronto that had been whipped by another Toronto that had been whipped by another wholesaler. We showed the salesman proof wholesaler. We showed the salesman proof wholesaler. We showed the salesman proof that the car had gone at least 78,000 that the car had gone at least 78,000 that the car had gone at least 78,000 mi, even though the odometer showed only mi, even though the odometer showed only mi, even though the odometer showed only 49,000. 49,000. 49,000. This time, the sales manager didn't seem This time, the sales manager didn't seem This time, the sales manager didn't seem all that grateful for the information. all that grateful for the information. all that grateful for the information. >> I don't have to talk to you. >> I don't have to talk to you. >> I don't have to talk to you. >> You don't talk to me. Come on. >> You don't talk to me. Come on. >> You don't talk to me. Come on. >> But what's what's >> But what's what's >> But what's what's >> We just had a question. Hi, my name is >> We just had a question. Hi, my name is >> We just had a question. Hi, my name is Steve Croft. Steve Croft. Steve Croft. >> I'm Jim Willis. How you doing? for 60 >> I'm Jim Willis. How you doing? for 60 >> I'm Jim Willis. How you doing? for 60 minutes. We're here looking at this car minutes. We're here looking at this car minutes. We're here looking at this car and we just wanted to know and we just wanted to know and we just wanted to know where did those 30,000 miles go and how where did those 30,000 miles go and how where did those 30,000 miles go and how did this happen? did this happen? did this happen? >> I have no idea. >> I have no idea. >> I have no idea. >> But you've looked at the piece of paper. >> But you've looked at the piece of paper. >> But you've looked at the piece of paper. >> Yeah, I've looked at it. I'm going to >> Yeah, I've looked at it. I'm going to >> Yeah, I've looked at it. I'm going to call the guy that could have sold me the call the guy that could have sold me the call the guy that could have sold me the car and make him buy it back. car and make him buy it back. car and make him buy it back. >> But first, he gave us one last chance. >> But first, he gave us one last chance. >> But first, he gave us one last chance. >> Do you want to buy the car? >> Do you want to buy the car? >> Do you want to buy the car? >> I don't think we want to buy it at the >> I don't think we want to buy it at the >> I don't think we want to buy it at the price you're asking. Then price you're asking. Then price you're asking. Then >> what are you worried about it for? >> what are you worried about it for? >> what are you worried about it for? >> Clearly, someplace along the line, this >> Clearly, someplace along the line, this >> Clearly, someplace along the line, this car has lost 30,000 miles. And I just car has lost 30,000 miles. And I just car has lost 30,000 miles. And I just want to find out if you knew about it. want to find out if you knew about it. want to find out if you knew about it. >> No, I don't know about it.

>> No, I don't know about it. >> No, I don't know about it. >> And >> And >> And >> we do not do anything like that. >> we do not do anything like that. >> we do not do anything like that. >> Apparently, Greens Point Dodge did not >> Apparently, Greens Point Dodge did not >> Apparently, Greens Point Dodge did not have anything to do with the roll back. have anything to do with the roll back. have anything to do with the roll back. The odometer was whipped by the The odometer was whipped by the The odometer was whipped by the wholesaler who had bought the car at an wholesaler who had bought the car at an wholesaler who had bought the car at an auction. auction. auction. >> What do you say right here? What I'm >> What do you say right here? What I'm >> What do you say right here? What I'm going to do? going to do? going to do? >> 170,000 cars get auctioned every week. >> 170,000 cars get auctioned every week. >> 170,000 cars get auctioned every week. Many are high mileage, late model cars, Many are high mileage, late model cars, Many are high mileage, late model cars, perfect for wholesalers who can roll up perfect for wholesalers who can roll up perfect for wholesalers who can roll up profits by rolling back miles. profits by rolling back miles. profits by rolling back miles. Anglo-American Auctions, headquartered Anglo-American Auctions, headquartered Anglo-American Auctions, headquartered in Nashville, Tennessee, says it spent in Nashville, Tennessee, says it spent in Nashville, Tennessee, says it spent $2 million on a computer system to try $2 million on a computer system to try $2 million on a computer system to try and keep rollback cars out of its and keep rollback cars out of its and keep rollback cars out of its auctions. But security chief Gary auctions. But security chief Gary auctions. But security chief Gary Dickinson admits that he can't prevent Dickinson admits that he can't prevent Dickinson admits that he can't prevent buyers from busting the miles later. buyers from busting the miles later. buyers from busting the miles later. >> We see where the problem is and we're >> We see where the problem is and we're >> We see where the problem is and we're helpless to do anything about it. helpless to do anything about it. helpless to do anything about it. >> Dickinson says the problem is every >> Dickinson says the problem is every >> Dickinson says the problem is every state has a different kind of title and state has a different kind of title and state has a different kind of title and all but a few are too easy to forge. all but a few are too easy to forge. all but a few are too easy to forge. >> What's the answer? >> What's the answer? >> What's the answer? >> Uh, a uniform title. So, you're talking >> Uh, a uniform title. So, you're talking >> Uh, a uniform title. So, you're talking about standardized title forms about standardized title forms about standardized title forms throughout the country. throughout the country. throughout the country. >> Absolutely. Would that wipe it out? It >> Absolutely. Would that wipe it out? It >> Absolutely. Would that wipe it out? It would go a long way to start.

would go a long way to start. would go a long way to start. >> I'll tell you what, if I had to quit it, >> I'll tell you what, if I had to quit it, >> I'll tell you what, if I had to quit it, I'd get out of the car. >> Couldn't make any money if you didn't do >> Couldn't make any money if you didn't do it. it. it. >> I don't believe there's enough money for >> I don't believe there's enough money for >> I don't believe there's enough money for me out there if I do it. A gentleman. me out there if I do it. A gentleman. me out there if I do it. A gentleman. >> I want to show you I want to show you >> I want to show you I want to show you >> I want to show you I want to show you one thing. All right. one thing. All right. one thing. All right. >> You know what's back there? >> You know what's back there? >> You know what's back there? >> What's back there? >> What's back there? >> What's back there? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> There's a TV camera back there. >> There's a TV camera back there. >> There's a TV camera back there. is. [laughter] is. [laughter] is. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> We've been uh we've been taping this >> We've been uh we've been taping this >> We've been uh we've been taping this whole thing. whole thing. whole thing. >> Well, all right. >> Well, all right. >> Well, all right. >> The good news is we're not cops. >> The good news is we're not cops. >> The good news is we're not cops. >> Well, [laughter] >> Well, [laughter] >> Well, [laughter] I didn't think so. I didn't think so. I didn't think so. >> The bad news is is we're 60 Minutes and >> The bad news is is we're 60 Minutes and >> The bad news is is we're 60 Minutes and you're not worried about the cops? you're not worried about the cops? you're not worried about the cops? >> Not really. >> Not really. >> Not really. And by the way, according to Charles And by the way, according to Charles And by the way, according to Charles Vance, the truck Bill Whitlo rode off in Vance, the truck Bill Whitlo rode off in Vance, the truck Bill Whitlo rode off in had been rolled back 70,000 miles. After had been rolled back 70,000 miles. After had been rolled back 70,000 miles. After we left, Vance and Hazlet got we left, Vance and Hazlet got we left, Vance and Hazlet got threatening phone calls and a more threatening phone calls and a more threatening phone calls and a more serious warning. Someone fired two serious warning. Someone fired two serious warning. Someone fired two bullets through their office wall. bullets through their office wall. bullets through their office wall. >> The gunshots were actually about less >> The gunshots were actually about less >> The gunshots were actually about less than 100 yards from where I live. So, I than 100 yards from where I live. So, I than 100 yards from where I live. So, I have a a major concern for my family at have a a major concern for my family at have a a major concern for my family at this time.

this time. this time. Vance and Hazlet say because we came to Vance and Hazlet say because we came to Vance and Hazlet say because we came to Houston, police are now taking a closer Houston, police are now taking a closer Houston, police are now taking a closer look at odometers and dealers are taking look at odometers and dealers are taking look at odometers and dealers are taking a closer look at cars they buy from a closer look at cars they buy from a closer look at cars they buy from wholesalers. But the threatening phone wholesalers. But the threatening phone wholesalers. But the threatening phone calls keep coming. calls keep coming. calls keep coming. >> Is this Charles Vance? >> Is this Charles Vance? >> Is this Charles Vance? >> This is he. >> This is he. >> This is he. >> Bull hoes you found your building are >> Bull hoes you found your building are >> Bull hoes you found your building are nothing compared to the drill holes you nothing compared to the drill holes you nothing compared to the drill holes you going to find in your body. You and John going to find in your body. You and John going to find in your body. You and John don't stop this 60 minutes. don't stop this 60 minutes. don't stop this 60 minutes. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh do you understand what I'm saying? >> Uh do you understand what I'm saying? >> Uh do you understand what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is your last warning. I'm telling >> This is your last warning. I'm telling >> This is your last warning. I'm telling you this right now. In response to our you this right now. In response to our you this right now. In response to our story, federal investigators indicted story, federal investigators indicted story, federal investigators indicted Bill Whitlo and four others for odometer Bill Whitlo and four others for odometer Bill Whitlo and four others for odometer tampering. Two of them have already tampering. Two of them have already tampering. Two of them have already pleaded guilty. And three weeks ago, a pleaded guilty. And three weeks ago, a pleaded guilty. And three weeks ago, a man who confessed to shooting those man who confessed to shooting those man who confessed to shooting those bullets into Charles Vance's office said bullets into Charles Vance's office said bullets into Charles Vance's office said he did it for Bill Whitlo in retaliation he did it for Bill Whitlo in retaliation he did it for Bill Whitlo in retaliation for the 60-minute story. In 2016, Steve Croft reported on corrupt In 2016, Steve Croft reported on corrupt foreigners laundering dirty money in foreigners laundering dirty money in foreigners laundering dirty money in anonymous US shell companies. The story anonymous US shell companies. The story anonymous US shell companies. The story showed how a watchdog group had taken showed how a watchdog group had taken showed how a watchdog group had taken hidden cameras into 16 different New hidden cameras into 16 different New hidden cameras into 16 different New York City law firms to see if they would York City law firms to see if they would York City law firms to see if they would be willing to help conceal suspicious be willing to help conceal suspicious be willing to help conceal suspicious funds.

funds. funds. If you like crime dramas and movies with If you like crime dramas and movies with If you like crime dramas and movies with international intrigue, then you international intrigue, then you international intrigue, then you probably have a basic understanding of probably have a basic understanding of probably have a basic understanding of money laundering. It's how dictators, money laundering. It's how dictators, money laundering. It's how dictators, drug dealers, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers, corrupt politicians, and other crooks avoid getting caught by other crooks avoid getting caught by other crooks avoid getting caught by transforming their illotten gains into transforming their illotten gains into transforming their illotten gains into assets that appear to be legitimate. assets that appear to be legitimate. assets that appear to be legitimate. They do it by moving the dirty money They do it by moving the dirty money They do it by moving the dirty money through a maze of dummy corporations and through a maze of dummy corporations and through a maze of dummy corporations and offshore bank accounts that conceal offshore bank accounts that conceal offshore bank accounts that conceal their identity and the source of the their identity and the source of the their identity and the source of the funds. And most of it would never happen funds. And most of it would never happen funds. And most of it would never happen without the help, witting or unwitting without the help, witting or unwitting without the help, witting or unwitting of lawyers, accountants, and of lawyers, accountants, and of lawyers, accountants, and incorporators. The people who actually incorporators. The people who actually incorporators. The people who actually create these anonymous shell companies create these anonymous shell companies create these anonymous shell companies and help move the money. In fact, the US and help move the money. In fact, the US and help move the money. In fact, the US has become one of the most popular has become one of the most popular has become one of the most popular places in the world to do it. Tonight, places in the world to do it. Tonight, places in the world to do it. Tonight, with the help of hidden camera footage, with the help of hidden camera footage, with the help of hidden camera footage, we're going to show you how easy it we're going to show you how easy it we're going to show you how easy it seems to have become to conceal seems to have become to conceal seems to have become to conceal questionable funds from law enforcement questionable funds from law enforcement questionable funds from law enforcement and the public. and the public. and the public. You need to look no further for evidence You need to look no further for evidence You need to look no further for evidence than the changing skyline of New York than the changing skyline of New York than the changing skyline of New York City, where much of the priciest City, where much of the priciest City, where much of the priciest residential real estate is being snapped residential real estate is being snapped residential real estate is being snapped up not by individuals, but by anonymous up not by individuals, but by anonymous up not by individuals, but by anonymous shell companies with secret owners.

shell companies with secret owners. shell companies with secret owners. There's nothing illegal about it as long There's nothing illegal about it as long There's nothing illegal about it as long as the money is legitimate. But there's as the money is legitimate. But there's as the money is legitimate. But there's no way to tell if you don't know who the no way to tell if you don't know who the no way to tell if you don't know who the real buyers are. It's one of the reasons real buyers are. It's one of the reasons real buyers are. It's one of the reasons Global Witness, a London-based nonprofit Global Witness, a London-based nonprofit Global Witness, a London-based nonprofit organization that exposes international organization that exposes international organization that exposes international corruption, came to New York City 19 corruption, came to New York City 19 corruption, came to New York City 19 months ago. months ago. months ago. It wanted to see how helpful US lawyers It wanted to see how helpful US lawyers It wanted to see how helpful US lawyers would be in concealing questionable would be in concealing questionable would be in concealing questionable funds. This hidden camera footage was funds. This hidden camera footage was funds. This hidden camera footage was shot in law firms across Manhattan shot in law firms across Manhattan shot in law firms across Manhattan without the lawyer's knowledge. By the without the lawyer's knowledge. By the without the lawyer's knowledge. By the man in the gray coat with a German man in the gray coat with a German man in the gray coat with a German accent. accent. accent. >> So, it's Ralph. >> So, it's Ralph. >> So, it's Ralph. >> Ralph Kaiser. Ralph Kaiser is not his >> Ralph Kaiser. Ralph Kaiser is not his >> Ralph Kaiser. Ralph Kaiser is not his real name. He's an investigator for real name. He's an investigator for real name. He's an investigator for Global Witness, posing here as the Global Witness, posing here as the Global Witness, posing here as the representative of a government official representative of a government official representative of a government official from a poor West African country who from a poor West African country who from a poor West African country who wants to move millions of dollars in wants to move millions of dollars in wants to move millions of dollars in suspicious funds into the United States suspicious funds into the United States suspicious funds into the United States and he needs the lawyer's help. and he needs the lawyer's help. and he needs the lawyer's help. >> Can I tell you what country, what >> Can I tell you what country, what >> Can I tell you what country, what minister this is? minister this is? minister this is? >> I can't tell you. It's one of those uh >> I can't tell you. It's one of those uh >> I can't tell you. It's one of those uh mineralrich countries in West Africa.

mineralrich countries in West Africa. mineralrich countries in West Africa. There are not so many. Attorney Gerald There are not so many. Attorney Gerald There are not so many. Attorney Gerald Ross and the other lawyers were told Ross and the other lawyers were told Ross and the other lawyers were told secrecy was essential because the secrecy was essential because the secrecy was essential because the African minister had amassed his fortune African minister had amassed his fortune African minister had amassed his fortune collecting special payments from foreign collecting special payments from foreign collecting special payments from foreign companies that he'd helped obtain companies that he'd helped obtain companies that he'd helped obtain valuable mineral rights. valuable mineral rights. valuable mineral rights. >> So companies are eager to get hold of >> So companies are eager to get hold of >> So companies are eager to get hold of rails or other minerals. rails or other minerals. rails or other minerals. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so they pay some special money for >> And so they pay some special money for >> And so they pay some special money for it. I wouldn't name it bribe. I would it. I wouldn't name it bribe. I would it. I wouldn't name it bribe. I would say facilitation money. say facilitation money. say facilitation money. >> Kaiser said it was all legal. He told >> Kaiser said it was all legal. He told >> Kaiser said it was all legal. He told attorney James Silkenod and other attorney James Silkenod and other attorney James Silkenod and other lawyers that the minister was shopping lawyers that the minister was shopping lawyers that the minister was shopping for a townhouse, a jet, and a yacht, but for a townhouse, a jet, and a yacht, but for a townhouse, a jet, and a yacht, but his name must not be connected to the his name must not be connected to the his name must not be connected to the purchases. purchases. purchases. >> If his name now would appear in >> If his name now would appear in >> If his name now would appear in connection with buying some real estate connection with buying some real estate connection with buying some real estate here and other items, it would look at here and other items, it would look at here and other items, it would look at least very very embarrassing, least very very embarrassing, least very very embarrassing, >> right? cuz his presumably his salary in >> right? cuz his presumably his salary in >> right? cuz his presumably his salary in wherever it is would not cover the kinds wherever it is would not cover the kinds wherever it is would not cover the kinds of acquisitions he's of acquisitions he's of acquisitions he's >> for sure that's the salary of a teacher >> for sure that's the salary of a teacher >> for sure that's the salary of a teacher here and so how can we make sure that he here and so how can we make sure that he here and so how can we make sure that he is being able to to buy property here is being able to to buy property here is being able to to buy property here and to live a nice life and to live a nice life and to live a nice life >> but his name being out >> but his name being out >> but his name being out >> right um any guesses as to how much >> right um any guesses as to how much >> right um any guesses as to how much money we're talking about for the money we're talking about for the money we're talking about for the brownstone and the other items brownstone and the other items brownstone and the other items >> I mean for the brownstone talking about >> I mean for the brownstone talking about >> I mean for the brownstone talking about 10 million M 10 million M 10 million M >> for a secondhand Gulf Stream I could >> for a secondhand Gulf Stream I could >> for a secondhand Gulf Stream I could imagine 10 20 million a yacht would be imagine 10 20 million a yacht would be imagine 10 20 million a yacht would be at least 200300 million.

at least 200300 million. at least 200300 million. >> The fictitious story of the African >> The fictitious story of the African >> The fictitious story of the African minister was cooked up in Global minister was cooked up in Global minister was cooked up in Global Witness's London office based on an Witness's London office based on an Witness's London office based on an actual moneyaundering case. The actual moneyaundering case. The actual moneyaundering case. The investigator phoned 50 New York law investigator phoned 50 New York law investigator phoned 50 New York law firms with experience in private asset firms with experience in private asset firms with experience in private asset protection and managed to get protection and managed to get protection and managed to get face-to-face meetings with 16 different face-to-face meetings with 16 different face-to-face meetings with 16 different lawyers in 13 firms. lawyers in 13 firms. lawyers in 13 firms. >> I'm very frank. It's uh I would say gray >> I'm very frank. It's uh I would say gray >> I'm very frank. It's uh I would say gray money. I think somebody told me, you money. I think somebody told me, you money. I think somebody told me, you name it, black money. name it, black money. name it, black money. >> Global witness says the pitch was >> Global witness says the pitch was >> Global witness says the pitch was intentionally designed to raise red intentionally designed to raise red intentionally designed to raise red flags and to give the lawyers good flags and to give the lawyers good flags and to give the lawyers good reason to suspect that the minister's reason to suspect that the minister's reason to suspect that the minister's millions came from official corruption. millions came from official corruption. millions came from official corruption. And they all did. It's only that the And they all did. It's only that the And they all did. It's only that the money is a bit um let's see money is a bit um let's see money is a bit um let's see >> tainted. >> tainted. >> tainted. >> Tainted. Thank you very much. >> Tainted. Thank you very much. >> Tainted. Thank you very much. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Or you gave another expression. >> Or you gave another expression. >> Or you gave another expression. >> Honest graph. >> Honest graph. >> Honest graph. >> An honest graph. So okay fine. So I have >> An honest graph. So okay fine. So I have >> An honest graph. So okay fine. So I have to be frank. It's honest graph. to be frank. It's honest graph. to be frank. It's honest graph. >> How would you name it? >> How would you name it? >> How would you name it? >> Some people call it bribe. Some people >> Some people call it bribe. Some people >> Some people call it bribe. Some people call it call it call it >> you name it bribe. >> you name it bribe. >> you name it bribe. >> Never right. [snorts and clears throat] >> Never right. [snorts and clears throat] >> Never right. [snorts and clears throat] Not Not Not >> a business deal. So okay bribe. It's >> a business deal. So okay bribe. It's >> a business deal. So okay bribe. It's actually bribe. You know, the story of actually bribe. You know, the story of actually bribe. You know, the story of the fictitious African minister would the fictitious African minister would the fictitious African minister would probably have raised eyebrows for the probably have raised eyebrows for the probably have raised eyebrows for the average person on the street.

average person on the street. average person on the street. >> Charmian Guch is the co-founder of >> Charmian Guch is the co-founder of >> Charmian Guch is the co-founder of Global Witness, a public advocacy group Global Witness, a public advocacy group Global Witness, a public advocacy group that exposes corruption in the that exposes corruption in the that exposes corruption in the developing world. Previous undercover developing world. Previous undercover developing world. Previous undercover investigations exposed the global trade investigations exposed the global trade investigations exposed the global trade in African blood diamonds. This in African blood diamonds. This in African blood diamonds. This investigation, Gu says, exposes serious investigation, Gu says, exposes serious investigation, Gu says, exposes serious flaws in the US legal system that have flaws in the US legal system that have flaws in the US legal system that have made it a hub for international made it a hub for international made it a hub for international moneyaundering. What the lawyers laid moneyaundering. What the lawyers laid moneyaundering. What the lawyers laid out for us in some detail was all the out for us in some detail was all the out for us in some detail was all the different possibilities and ways in different possibilities and ways in different possibilities and ways in which it could be done. which it could be done. which it could be done. >> What you're saying is if you want to get >> What you're saying is if you want to get >> What you're saying is if you want to get dirty money into the United States, it's dirty money into the United States, it's dirty money into the United States, it's not that hard to do. What not that hard to do. What not that hard to do. What >> I'm saying is there is an open door and >> I'm saying is there is an open door and >> I'm saying is there is an open door and it's pretty shocking and pretty it's pretty shocking and pretty it's pretty shocking and pretty concerning um because that money could concerning um because that money could concerning um because that money could be coming from anywhere. Of the 16 be coming from anywhere. Of the 16 be coming from anywhere. Of the 16 lawyers that Global Witness recorded in lawyers that Global Witness recorded in lawyers that Global Witness recorded in these preliminary meetings, only these preliminary meetings, only these preliminary meetings, only attorney Jeffrey Herman flatly declined attorney Jeffrey Herman flatly declined attorney Jeffrey Herman flatly declined to participate and showed Ralph Kaiser to participate and showed Ralph Kaiser to participate and showed Ralph Kaiser the door. the door. the door. >> I have some real questions about that. >> I have some real questions about that. >> I have some real questions about that. Um, Um, Um, under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, >> under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, >> under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, >> under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, bribing foreign officials is illegal bribing foreign officials is illegal bribing foreign officials is illegal >> by Americans >> by Americans >> by Americans >> by Americans.

>> by Americans. >> by Americans. Um Um Um >> but Americans are not involved. So it's money from other national So it's money from other national nationals, not American entities, not nationals, not American entities, not nationals, not American entities, not American nationals. American nationals. American nationals. >> Pard me. >> Pard me. >> Pard me. >> It's not something. >> It's not something. >> It's not something. Aside from that one exception, 12 out of Aside from that one exception, 12 out of Aside from that one exception, 12 out of the 13 law firms, including 15 out of the 13 law firms, including 15 out of the 13 law firms, including 15 out of the 16 lawyers, not only heard Ralph the 16 lawyers, not only heard Ralph the 16 lawyers, not only heard Ralph Kaiser out, they suggested ways that the Kaiser out, they suggested ways that the Kaiser out, they suggested ways that the suspicious funds could be moved into the suspicious funds could be moved into the suspicious funds could be moved into the US without compromising the minister's US without compromising the minister's US without compromising the minister's identity. Attorney James Silken was identity. Attorney James Silken was identity. Attorney James Silken was selected by Global Witness because at selected by Global Witness because at selected by Global Witness because at the time he was president of the the time he was president of the the time he was president of the American Bar Association. Yet he and his American Bar Association. Yet he and his American Bar Association. Yet he and his colleague Hugh Finnegan provided what colleague Hugh Finnegan provided what colleague Hugh Finnegan provided what former prosecutors told us was a road former prosecutors told us was a road former prosecutors told us was a road map of how to conceal the source of the map of how to conceal the source of the map of how to conceal the source of the funds using layers of anonymous funds using layers of anonymous funds using layers of anonymous interconnected shell companies in interconnected shell companies in interconnected shell companies in multiple jurisdictions. multiple jurisdictions. multiple jurisdictions. >> Presumably, we would set up a little bit >> Presumably, we would set up a little bit >> Presumably, we would set up a little bit of a series of owners to try and again of a series of owners to try and again of a series of owners to try and again protect privacy as much as anything protect privacy as much as anything protect privacy as much as anything else. Yeah.

else. Yeah. else. Yeah. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> so company A is owned by company B, >> so company A is owned by company B, >> so company A is owned by company B, which is owned jointly by companies C which is owned jointly by companies C which is owned jointly by companies C and D, and your party owns and D, and your party owns and D, and your party owns uh all of or the majority of the shares uh all of or the majority of the shares uh all of or the majority of the shares of C and D. of C and D. of C and D. >> So we we create several companies. >> So we we create several companies. >> So we we create several companies. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> All in New York or different? >> All in New York or different? >> All in New York or different? >> I said at some point that probably >> I said at some point that probably >> I said at some point that probably pretty quickly you go offshore. pretty quickly you go offshore. pretty quickly you go offshore. >> Attorney John Jenkoff and his partner >> Attorney John Jenkoff and his partner >> Attorney John Jenkoff and his partner Lawrence Gabe recommended variations of Lawrence Gabe recommended variations of Lawrence Gabe recommended variations of the same strategy. A lot of people in the same strategy. A lot of people in the same strategy. A lot of people in Africa use the aisle of man. Um, some of Africa use the aisle of man. Um, some of Africa use the aisle of man. Um, some of them use Likenstein. them use Likenstein. them use Likenstein. Um, so he would just take his millions Um, so he would just take his millions Um, so he would just take his millions of dollars, put it in aisle of of dollars, put it in aisle of of dollars, put it in aisle of >> he could put it into a a Swiss bank >> he could put it into a a Swiss bank >> he could put it into a a Swiss bank account. The Swiss will have it and and account. The Swiss will have it and and account. The Swiss will have it and and then um and then he comes to us and then then um and then he comes to us and then then um and then he comes to us and then he comes to us and says, "I want to buy he comes to us and says, "I want to buy he comes to us and says, "I want to buy a townhouse." Attorney Mark Copick also a townhouse." Attorney Mark Copick also a townhouse." Attorney Mark Copick also suggested that the minister could move suggested that the minister could move suggested that the minister could move his money out of West Africa to Europe his money out of West Africa to Europe his money out of West Africa to Europe where it could be scrubbed in an where it could be scrubbed in an where it could be scrubbed in an anonymous corporate entity that his firm anonymous corporate entity that his firm anonymous corporate entity that his firm would be happy to set up.

would be happy to set up. would be happy to set up. >> The money as it sits now is it in his >> The money as it sits now is it in his >> The money as it sits now is it in his name? name? name? >> It's a different names. >> It's a different names. >> It's a different names. >> Okay. So it will come as those different >> Okay. So it will come as those different >> Okay. So it will come as those different names names names >> including his name. Yes. >> including his name. Yes. >> including his name. Yes. >> Including. So we have to scrub it at the >> Including. So we have to scrub it at the >> Including. So we have to scrub it at the beginning if we can or scrub it at the beginning if we can or scrub it at the beginning if we can or scrub it at the intermediary location that I intermediary location that I intermediary location that I [clears throat] mentioned. [clears throat] mentioned. [clears throat] mentioned. >> So how to do this intermediate that >> So how to do this intermediate that >> So how to do this intermediate that means a bank in means a bank in means a bank in >> say Luxembourg >> say Luxembourg >> say Luxembourg >> uh Luxembourg >> uh Luxembourg >> uh Luxembourg >> will set up an appropriate entity call >> will set up an appropriate entity call >> will set up an appropriate entity call it client overseas.com or whatever it client overseas.com or whatever it client overseas.com or whatever >> and then that will send money into the >> and then that will send money into the >> and then that will send money into the United States. United States. United States. >> If that was a banker talking instead of >> If that was a banker talking instead of >> If that was a banker talking instead of a lawyer he could be in serious trouble. a lawyer he could be in serious trouble. a lawyer he could be in serious trouble. That's because under US law, bankers are That's because under US law, bankers are That's because under US law, bankers are required to report suspicious financial required to report suspicious financial required to report suspicious financial activity to the authorities. Lawyers are activity to the authorities. Lawyers are activity to the authorities. Lawyers are under no such legal obligation. under no such legal obligation. under no such legal obligation. >> Banks in America are required to know >> Banks in America are required to know >> Banks in America are required to know their customer, are required to be very their customer, are required to be very their customer, are required to be very cognizant of risk and to report on it if cognizant of risk and to report on it if cognizant of risk and to report on it if there if there is an issue there around there if there is an issue there around there if there is an issue there around money laundering. And yet absolutely money laundering. And yet absolutely money laundering. And yet absolutely bizarrely, American lawyers aren't. This bizarrely, American lawyers aren't. This bizarrely, American lawyers aren't. This is clearly an issue. And I think our is clearly an issue. And I think our is clearly an issue. And I think our investigation has shown the potential investigation has shown the potential investigation has shown the potential for what can happen because of that lack for what can happen because of that lack for what can happen because of that lack of regulation.

of regulation. of regulation. >> Global witness says that anomaly is just >> Global witness says that anomaly is just >> Global witness says that anomaly is just one of the flaws in the US legal system one of the flaws in the US legal system one of the flaws in the US legal system that helps facilitate money laundering. that helps facilitate money laundering. that helps facilitate money laundering. >> And we're going to call it here >> And we're going to call it here >> And we're going to call it here anonymous ink. anonymous ink. anonymous ink. >> Another is the ease with which anonymous >> Another is the ease with which anonymous >> Another is the ease with which anonymous shell companies can be set up here to shell companies can be set up here to shell companies can be set up here to conceal ownership of money and assets. conceal ownership of money and assets. conceal ownership of money and assets. Last year, two million new corporations Last year, two million new corporations Last year, two million new corporations were set up in the United States. Many were set up in the United States. Many were set up in the United States. Many with no offices, products, or employees, with no offices, products, or employees, with no offices, products, or employees, just an address, and perhaps a bank just an address, and perhaps a bank just an address, and perhaps a bank account. account. account. >> In many states across America, you need >> In many states across America, you need >> In many states across America, you need less identification to set up and open less identification to set up and open less identification to set up and open up an anonymous company than you do to up an anonymous company than you do to up an anonymous company than you do to get a library card. get a library card. get a library card. >> Gu says anonymous shell companies are >> Gu says anonymous shell companies are >> Gu says anonymous shell companies are like getaway cars for crooks, designed like getaway cars for crooks, designed like getaway cars for crooks, designed to put them as far away as possible from to put them as far away as possible from to put them as far away as possible from the scene of their crime. According to a the scene of their crime. According to a the scene of their crime. According to a World Bank study, the US was the World Bank study, the US was the World Bank study, the US was the favorite place for corrupt officials to favorite place for corrupt officials to favorite place for corrupt officials to set up anonymous shell companies. set up anonymous shell companies. set up anonymous shell companies. >> There was a very good academic study and >> There was a very good academic study and >> There was a very good academic study and America came up as the easiest place to America came up as the easiest place to America came up as the easiest place to set up an anonymous company after Kenya set up an anonymous company after Kenya set up an anonymous company after Kenya out of 180 countries out of 180 countries out of 180 countries >> after Kenya.

>> after Kenya. >> after Kenya. >> After Kenya. >> After Kenya. >> After Kenya. >> So, did that study have anything to do >> So, did that study have anything to do >> So, did that study have anything to do with your decision to go ahead and do with your decision to go ahead and do with your decision to go ahead and do these undercover investigations? these undercover investigations? these undercover investigations? >> It inspired us. I mean, we almost >> It inspired us. I mean, we almost >> It inspired us. I mean, we almost thought it can't be this bad, can it? thought it can't be this bad, can it? thought it can't be this bad, can it? And unfortunately what we found is it is And unfortunately what we found is it is And unfortunately what we found is it is >> all of the attorneys expressed some >> all of the attorneys expressed some >> all of the attorneys expressed some concerns like this one from Gerald Ross. concerns like this one from Gerald Ross. concerns like this one from Gerald Ross. >> I've got to be very careful myself. I >> I've got to be very careful myself. I >> I've got to be very careful myself. I don't want to This one looks like I'm don't want to This one looks like I'm don't want to This one looks like I'm laundering money. laundering money. laundering money. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And that could cost me my license. >> But later he suggested that the >> But later he suggested that the questionable money could be wired questionable money could be wired questionable money could be wired directly into his client escrow account, directly into his client escrow account, directly into his client escrow account, bypassing scrutiny from the banks. Now, bypassing scrutiny from the banks. Now, bypassing scrutiny from the banks. Now, when I get money from my other clients, when I get money from my other clients, when I get money from my other clients, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it always comes in with some strange >> it always comes in with some strange >> it always comes in with some strange name on it. name on it. name on it. >> I don't even ask. >> I don't even ask. >> I don't even ask. >> Nobody asked. >> Nobody asked. >> Nobody asked. >> It doesn't come from Minister Joe Jones. >> It doesn't come from Minister Joe Jones. >> It doesn't come from Minister Joe Jones. It comes from the XYZ It comes from the XYZ It comes from the XYZ account. account. account. >> John Jankov said they would need to get >> John Jankov said they would need to get >> John Jankov said they would need to get a legal opinion that the money was a legal opinion that the money was a legal opinion that the money was clean, then suggested that the minister clean, then suggested that the minister clean, then suggested that the minister use frontmen to open up overseas bank use frontmen to open up overseas bank use frontmen to open up overseas bank accounts.

accounts. accounts. >> If it's not in his name, >> If it's not in his name, >> If it's not in his name, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Then he needs what is known as a straw Then he needs what is known as a straw Then he needs what is known as a straw man. Practically speaking, man. Practically speaking, man. Practically speaking, >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> if the money leaves the country, his >> if the money leaves the country, his >> if the money leaves the country, his name should not be attached name should not be attached name should not be attached >> exactly >> exactly >> exactly >> to the wire. It should be other people's >> to the wire. It should be other people's >> to the wire. It should be other people's names. names. names. >> And we know this happens. We know this >> And we know this happens. We know this >> And we know this happens. We know this happens. This is how moneyaundering happens. This is how moneyaundering happens. This is how moneyaundering occurs all over the world. But that does occurs all over the world. But that does occurs all over the world. But that does not mitigate the power of seeing it up not mitigate the power of seeing it up not mitigate the power of seeing it up close. We showed the tapes to Chip Pony, close. We showed the tapes to Chip Pony, close. We showed the tapes to Chip Pony, a former top official at the Treasury a former top official at the Treasury a former top official at the Treasury Department, whose job was to stop Department, whose job was to stop Department, whose job was to stop financial crime, terrorist financing, financial crime, terrorist financing, financial crime, terrorist financing, and money laundering. He says there's and money laundering. He says there's and money laundering. He says there's nothing wrong with lawyers setting up nothing wrong with lawyers setting up nothing wrong with lawyers setting up anonymous shell companies to protect the anonymous shell companies to protect the anonymous shell companies to protect the client's privacy. But if it's done to client's privacy. But if it's done to client's privacy. But if it's done to conceal criminal activity, that's when conceal criminal activity, that's when conceal criminal activity, that's when it becomes a problem. There's a clear it becomes a problem. There's a clear it becomes a problem. There's a clear pitch consistently presented in every pitch consistently presented in every pitch consistently presented in every one of these tapes of what amounts to uh one of these tapes of what amounts to uh one of these tapes of what amounts to uh an incredible number of red flags that an incredible number of red flags that an incredible number of red flags that scream corruption. scream corruption. scream corruption. >> Dirty money. >> Dirty money. >> Dirty money. >> Dirty money. >> Dirty money. >> Dirty money. >> Bad actors. >> Bad actors. >> Bad actors. >> Bad actors. They don't want to be found.

>> Bad actors. They don't want to be found. >> Bad actors. They don't want to be found. And they have a need. They've got to And they have a need. They've got to And they have a need. They've got to move their money from a point where move their money from a point where move their money from a point where they've received corrupt proceeds in they've received corrupt proceeds in they've received corrupt proceeds in this case to a point where they can this case to a point where they can this case to a point where they can enjoy those proceeds. And to get them enjoy those proceeds. And to get them enjoy those proceeds. And to get them from to get this money from point A to from to get this money from point A to from to get this money from point A to point B, they need help in laundering it point B, they need help in laundering it point B, they need help in laundering it effectively. Pony says he was dismayed effectively. Pony says he was dismayed effectively. Pony says he was dismayed with the ease and the comfort with which with the ease and the comfort with which with the ease and the comfort with which attorneys seem to be willing to turn a attorneys seem to be willing to turn a attorneys seem to be willing to turn a blind eye and discuss a matter that was blind eye and discuss a matter that was blind eye and discuss a matter that was likely to be illegal. likely to be illegal. likely to be illegal. >> What's essential to recognize is that >> What's essential to recognize is that >> What's essential to recognize is that this is after it's been revealed that this is after it's been revealed that this is after it's been revealed that the potential client is representing an the potential client is representing an the potential client is representing an African minister with hundreds of African minister with hundreds of African minister with hundreds of millions of dollars of funds received millions of dollars of funds received millions of dollars of funds received through effectively bribes. through effectively bribes. through effectively bribes. >> This is more than legal advice. This is >> This is more than legal advice. This is >> This is more than legal advice. This is legal advice on how to evade controls um legal advice on how to evade controls um legal advice on how to evade controls um or at a minimum very clear global or at a minimum very clear global or at a minimum very clear global standards on financial transparency to standards on financial transparency to standards on financial transparency to allow um our countries to go after allow um our countries to go after allow um our countries to go after proceeds of crime. proceeds of crime. proceeds of crime. >> Attorney Mark Copick told the global >> Attorney Mark Copick told the global >> Attorney Mark Copick told the global witness investigator that he preferred witness investigator that he preferred witness investigator that he preferred using money managers and investment using money managers and investment using money managers and investment firms to move funds. He thought it was firms to move funds. He thought it was firms to move funds. He thought it was less risky than using banks. And I would less risky than using banks. And I would less risky than using banks. And I would suggest three or four suggest three or four suggest three or four to you. Some are bigger, some are to you. Some are bigger, some are to you. Some are bigger, some are smaller. The smaller ones are often more smaller. The smaller ones are often more smaller. The smaller ones are often more flexible and understanding flexible and understanding flexible and understanding and less concerned about their and less concerned about their and less concerned about their reputation because they fly to a greater reputation because they fly to a greater reputation because they fly to a greater extent below the radar screen.

extent below the radar screen. extent below the radar screen. >> Sometimes the advice took the form of >> Sometimes the advice took the form of >> Sometimes the advice took the form of suggesting banks in countries that might suggesting banks in countries that might suggesting banks in countries that might be less vigilant about money laundering. be less vigilant about money laundering. be less vigilant about money laundering. We would have to look into how far uh We would have to look into how far uh We would have to look into how far uh specific banks looked into, you know, specific banks looked into, you know, specific banks looked into, you know, the, you know, the know your customer the, you know, the know your customer the, you know, the know your customer laws and how far they would dig. laws and how far they would dig. laws and how far they would dig. >> In many ways, you'd probably be better >> In many ways, you'd probably be better >> In many ways, you'd probably be better off with a smaller bank off with a smaller bank off with a smaller bank >> because that would be a possibility >> because that would be a possibility >> because that would be a possibility >> because the bigger banks are much more >> because the bigger banks are much more >> because the bigger banks are much more um serious about working into that um serious about working into that um serious about working into that stuff. stuff. stuff. >> So, reputation, >> So, reputation, >> So, reputation, >> right? Yes. >> right? Yes. >> right? Yes. And there may be other And there may be other And there may be other banking systems um that are less banking systems um that are less banking systems um that are less rigorous rigorous rigorous >> on this than the US. >> on this than the US. >> on this than the US. >> What would it be? >> What would it be? >> What would it be? >> The usual banking havens I think would >> The usual banking havens I think would >> The usual banking havens I think would be ones you would want to consider. We be ones you would want to consider. We be ones you would want to consider. We could provide you the list of countries could provide you the list of countries could provide you the list of countries where the banking systems um require where the banking systems um require where the banking systems um require less less less uh detail on ownership or source of uh detail on ownership or source of uh detail on ownership or source of funds. While James Silkenot, the former funds. While James Silkenot, the former funds. While James Silkenot, the former president of the American Bar president of the American Bar president of the American Bar Association, and his partner Euinigan Association, and his partner Euinigan Association, and his partner Euinigan listened to the pitch and suggested ways listened to the pitch and suggested ways listened to the pitch and suggested ways in which they might be able to help, in which they might be able to help, in which they might be able to help, they were also the most suspicious of they were also the most suspicious of they were also the most suspicious of Ralph Kaiser and his African minister.

Ralph Kaiser and his African minister. Ralph Kaiser and his African minister. Beginning just 5 minutes into the Beginning just 5 minutes into the Beginning just 5 minutes into the meeting, meeting, meeting, >> we need to talk about the risks >> we need to talk about the risks >> we need to talk about the risks or just concerns about where he got the or just concerns about where he got the or just concerns about where he got the money and how to explain that. There's money and how to explain that. There's money and how to explain that. There's there issues there. [clears throat] there issues there. [clears throat] there issues there. [clears throat] um um um the transactions in which he would be the transactions in which he would be the transactions in which he would be involved here wouldn't involved here wouldn't involved here wouldn't be part of facilitating payments. But if be part of facilitating payments. But if be part of facilitating payments. But if that's really where the money came from that's really where the money came from that's really where the money came from and if there were um you know quote unquote crimes committed you know quote unquote crimes committed someplace else that that starts to be an someplace else that that starts to be an someplace else that that starts to be an issue. issue. issue. >> They were also the most cautious about >> They were also the most cautious about >> They were also the most cautious about moving forward. Towards the end of the moving forward. Towards the end of the moving forward. Towards the end of the meeting, Hugh Finnegan, who is off meeting, Hugh Finnegan, who is off meeting, Hugh Finnegan, who is off camera here, said the firm would feel camera here, said the firm would feel camera here, said the firm would feel obligated to report anything it believed obligated to report anything it believed obligated to report anything it believed to be illegal. to be illegal. to be illegal. >> Again, bearing in mind what you said, no >> Again, bearing in mind what you said, no >> Again, bearing in mind what you said, no American law was violated, no local law American law was violated, no local law American law was violated, no local law was violated, but you know, if we're was violated, but you know, if we're was violated, but you know, if we're aware that a crime is being committed, aware that a crime is being committed, aware that a crime is being committed, we have an obligation to report that. we have an obligation to report that. we have an obligation to report that. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Mr. Sonat says we need to talk about the >> Mr. Sonat says we need to talk about the >> Mr. Sonat says we need to talk about the risks or just concerns uh about where he risks or just concerns uh about where he risks or just concerns uh about where he got the money and how to explain that.

got the money and how to explain that. got the money and how to explain that. that that and that's that's a wealth that that and that's that's a wealth that that and that's that's a wealth >> and he's already been told how where the >> and he's already been told how where the >> and he's already been told how where the money came from and how he got the money came from and how he got the money came from and how he got the money. money. money. >> Correct. So it it's it's it's a healthy >> Correct. So it it's it's it's a healthy >> Correct. So it it's it's it's a healthy recognition that there's an issue here. recognition that there's an issue here. recognition that there's an issue here. >> If you could ask him anything about this >> If you could ask him anything about this >> If you could ask him anything about this meeting, what would it be? meeting, what would it be? meeting, what would it be? >> What's going through your head? Why are >> What's going through your head? Why are >> What's going through your head? Why are you continuing this conversation? Why you continuing this conversation? Why you continuing this conversation? Why not just say no? Is the business that not just say no? Is the business that not just say no? Is the business that important? important? important? Neither Sukona nor Finnegan would agree Neither Sukona nor Finnegan would agree Neither Sukona nor Finnegan would agree to an on camera interview, but they sent to an on camera interview, but they sent to an on camera interview, but they sent us a statement saying they only us a statement saying they only us a statement saying they only discussed generic information that could discussed generic information that could discussed generic information that could be found on the internet and that their be found on the internet and that their be found on the internet and that their conduct was entirely appropriate. Had conduct was entirely appropriate. Had conduct was entirely appropriate. Had the camera followed us after the meeting the camera followed us after the meeting the camera followed us after the meeting they wrote, it would have shown us they wrote, it would have shown us they wrote, it would have shown us agreeing that Kaiser was disreputable agreeing that Kaiser was disreputable agreeing that Kaiser was disreputable and that we would not deal with him and that we would not deal with him and that we would not deal with him again. None of the other lawyers agreed again. None of the other lawyers agreed again. None of the other lawyers agreed to give us an on camera interview to give us an on camera interview to give us an on camera interview either. When we come back, we'll take a either. When we come back, we'll take a either. When we come back, we'll take a look at the legal and ethical look at the legal and ethical look at the legal and ethical implications of what you've just seen.

When a nonprofit organization called When a nonprofit organization called Global Witness came to New York 19 Global Witness came to New York 19 Global Witness came to New York 19 months ago, it secretly recorded hidden months ago, it secretly recorded hidden months ago, it secretly recorded hidden camera interviews with 16 Manhattan camera interviews with 16 Manhattan camera interviews with 16 Manhattan lawyers. Its investigator was posing as lawyers. Its investigator was posing as lawyers. Its investigator was posing as the representative of an African the representative of an African the representative of an African government minister trying to move government minister trying to move government minister trying to move millions of dollars of suspicious funds. millions of dollars of suspicious funds. millions of dollars of suspicious funds. Global Witness, which specializes in Global Witness, which specializes in Global Witness, which specializes in exposing international corruption, exposing international corruption, exposing international corruption, wanted to see how much help the lawyers wanted to see how much help the lawyers wanted to see how much help the lawyers would provide in setting up anonymous would provide in setting up anonymous would provide in setting up anonymous shell companies and offshore bank shell companies and offshore bank shell companies and offshore bank accounts to move the suspicious funds accounts to move the suspicious funds accounts to move the suspicious funds into the US and at the same time protect into the US and at the same time protect into the US and at the same time protect the identity of the fictitious African the identity of the fictitious African the identity of the fictitious African official. official. official. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. >> The undercover investigator, who called >> The undercover investigator, who called >> The undercover investigator, who called himself Ralph Kaiser, told the lawyers himself Ralph Kaiser, told the lawyers himself Ralph Kaiser, told the lawyers that the minister had used his official that the minister had used his official that the minister had used his official position to collect tens of millions of position to collect tens of millions of position to collect tens of millions of dollars in special payments from foreign dollars in special payments from foreign dollars in special payments from foreign companies to help them obtain valuable companies to help them obtain valuable companies to help them obtain valuable mineral rights. He wanted to move the mineral rights. He wanted to move the mineral rights. He wanted to move the money to the United States to buy a money to the United States to buy a money to the United States to buy a house, a jet, and a yacht.

house, a jet, and a yacht. house, a jet, and a yacht. >> So therefore, he wants to bring in the >> So therefore, he wants to bring in the >> So therefore, he wants to bring in the money into the US. So starting with a money into the US. So starting with a money into the US. So starting with a brownstone and then probably buying brownstone and then probably buying brownstone and then probably buying Gulfream jet. Uh he wants to commission Gulfream jet. Uh he wants to commission Gulfream jet. Uh he wants to commission the building of a yacht and buy probably the building of a yacht and buy probably the building of a yacht and buy probably more property. more property. more property. >> The story was intentionally devised to >> The story was intentionally devised to >> The story was intentionally devised to raise red flags and lead the lawyers to raise red flags and lead the lawyers to raise red flags and lead the lawyers to believe that the minister's money was believe that the minister's money was believe that the minister's money was dirty. During the meetings, only one of dirty. During the meetings, only one of dirty. During the meetings, only one of the 16 lawyers, Jeffrey Herman, told him the 16 lawyers, Jeffrey Herman, told him the 16 lawyers, Jeffrey Herman, told him no. no. no. >> This ain't for me. My standards are >> This ain't for me. My standards are >> This ain't for me. My standards are higher. higher. higher. >> Ready? The rest express varying degrees >> Ready? The rest express varying degrees >> Ready? The rest express varying degrees of interest with most of them offering of interest with most of them offering of interest with most of them offering advice on how it could be done. advice on how it could be done. advice on how it could be done. >> We do everything >> We do everything >> We do everything soup to nuts. So there's no limitation. soup to nuts. So there's no limitation. soup to nuts. So there's no limitation. We don't say, "Oh, we don't do windows We don't say, "Oh, we don't do windows We don't say, "Oh, we don't do windows or we don't deal with the financial or we don't deal with the financial or we don't deal with the financial money manager, whatever." No, we money manager, whatever." No, we money manager, whatever." No, we orchestrate and organize the entire orchestrate and organize the entire orchestrate and organize the entire thing. thing. thing. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> We're happy to take that responsibility. >> We're happy to take that responsibility. >> We're happy to take that responsibility. What's important to point out, and it What's important to point out, and it What's important to point out, and it cannot be overstated, is that none of cannot be overstated, is that none of cannot be overstated, is that none of the lawyers we've shown you broke any the lawyers we've shown you broke any the lawyers we've shown you broke any laws. In part, because the African laws. In part, because the African laws. In part, because the African minister didn't really exist, there were minister didn't really exist, there were minister didn't really exist, there were no hundreds of millions of dollars. And no hundreds of millions of dollars. And no hundreds of millions of dollars. And global witnesses Charie and Gu said no global witnesses Charie and Gu said no global witnesses Charie and Gu said no money ever changed hands. So, this is money ever changed hands. So, this is money ever changed hands. So, this is sort of a morality test.

sort of a morality test. sort of a morality test. >> It wasn't. It was a it was a test on the >> It wasn't. It was a it was a test on the >> It wasn't. It was a it was a test on the system. system. system. >> You know, people could make the >> You know, people could make the >> You know, people could make the argument, look, all these guys did argument, look, all these guys did argument, look, all these guys did really was just listen to this person really was just listen to this person really was just listen to this person that came into their office. that came into their office. that came into their office. um they didn't make a deal. They didn't um they didn't make a deal. They didn't um they didn't make a deal. They didn't sign up. They said, "We need to do some sign up. They said, "We need to do some sign up. They said, "We need to do some more research." more research." more research." >> And you know what? They'd be absolutely >> And you know what? They'd be absolutely >> And you know what? They'd be absolutely right to say that, but they need to say right to say that, but they need to say right to say that, but they need to say something else, too, which is that those something else, too, which is that those something else, too, which is that those lawyers laid out in often considerable lawyers laid out in often considerable lawyers laid out in often considerable detail a myriad of different ways to detail a myriad of different ways to detail a myriad of different ways to bring money into America. bring money into America. bring money into America. >> None of the lawyers agreed to take on >> None of the lawyers agreed to take on >> None of the lawyers agreed to take on the African minister as a client, nor the African minister as a client, nor the African minister as a client, nor were they asked to. It was a preliminary were they asked to. It was a preliminary were they asked to. It was a preliminary meeting that ended with most of the meeting that ended with most of the meeting that ended with most of the attorneys expressing interest in attorneys expressing interest in attorneys expressing interest in continuing the dialogue and some continuing the dialogue and some continuing the dialogue and some enthusiastic about landing the business. enthusiastic about landing the business. enthusiastic about landing the business. >> Happy to chat whenever it's possible to >> Happy to chat whenever it's possible to >> Happy to chat whenever it's possible to move the ball forward on this. move the ball forward on this. move the ball forward on this. >> Fantastic. Great. >> Fantastic. Great. >> Fantastic. Great. >> Good. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for coming >> Good. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for coming >> Good. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for coming in. in. in. >> Mark Copick and Albert Grant forsaw no >> Mark Copick and Albert Grant forsaw no >> Mark Copick and Albert Grant forsaw no problem as long as the money was clean problem as long as the money was clean problem as long as the money was clean and gave no indication they planned to and gave no indication they planned to and gave no indication they planned to do any checking themselves. They went so do any checking themselves. They went so do any checking themselves. They went so far as to discuss legal fees.

far as to discuss legal fees. far as to discuss legal fees. >> Legal fees will be substantial. Albert >> Legal fees will be substantial. Albert >> Legal fees will be substantial. Albert currently from around $50 to $100,000. currently from around $50 to $100,000. currently from around $50 to $100,000. >> Copic also suggested conducting a test >> Copic also suggested conducting a test >> Copic also suggested conducting a test in which a portion of the suspicious in which a portion of the suspicious in which a portion of the suspicious funds would be sent into the United funds would be sent into the United funds would be sent into the United States. States. States. >> A million dollar. >> A million dollar. >> A million dollar. >> A million dollar. So it's a test. >> A million dollar. So it's a test. >> A million dollar. So it's a test. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because I said probably would start with >> Because I said probably would start with >> Because I said probably would start with around 50 million probably. I could around 50 million probably. I could around 50 million probably. I could imagine. imagine. imagine. >> I would say a million. >> I would say a million. >> I would say a million. >> A million dollar. >> A million dollar. >> A million dollar. >> If anything goes wrong, it'll be >> If anything goes wrong, it'll be >> If anything goes wrong, it'll be painful, but it won't be painful, but it won't be painful, but it won't be lifethreatening. lifethreatening. lifethreatening. >> But Exactly. >> But Exactly. >> But Exactly. John Jankoff and his partner Lawrence John Jankoff and his partner Lawrence John Jankoff and his partner Lawrence Gabe, who is off camera here, also Gabe, who is off camera here, also Gabe, who is off camera here, also seemed willing to go forward. seemed willing to go forward. seemed willing to go forward. >> We would orchestrate it. One legal fee, >> We would orchestrate it. One legal fee, >> We would orchestrate it. One legal fee, cover everything. cover everything. cover everything. >> However, Gabe did express some concerns >> However, Gabe did express some concerns >> However, Gabe did express some concerns about the transactions. about the transactions. about the transactions. >> Uh, who can set up this structure? Could >> Uh, who can set up this structure? Could >> Uh, who can set up this structure? Could you do it? you do it? you do it? >> Yeah, I I your brother-in-law does it >> Yeah, I I your brother-in-law does it >> Yeah, I I your brother-in-law does it all the time. all the time. all the time. >> Well, okay. I I I don't think he does it >> Well, okay. I I I don't think he does it >> Well, okay. I I I don't think he does it with money. That may be questionable, with money. That may be questionable, with money. That may be questionable, and that we have to find out about. At and that we have to find out about. At and that we have to find out about. At the end of that meeting, they look the end of that meeting, they look the end of that meeting, they look forward to the next conversation on the forward to the next conversation on the forward to the next conversation on the telephone, not on email.

telephone, not on email. telephone, not on email. >> Okay. And give me a phone number where >> Okay. And give me a phone number where >> Okay. And give me a phone number where we can reach. So, they're not putting we can reach. So, they're not putting we can reach. So, they're not putting this in emails. this in emails. this in emails. >> Sending an email with just an outline >> Sending an email with just an outline >> Sending an email with just an outline would be fine as well. So, would be fine as well. So, would be fine as well. So, >> I don't like emails. >> I don't like emails. >> I don't like emails. >> You don't like emails. >> You don't like emails. >> You don't like emails. >> That's how you catch people. >> That's how you catch people. >> That's how you catch people. >> The hidden camera tapes raise all sorts >> The hidden camera tapes raise all sorts >> The hidden camera tapes raise all sorts of ethical questions, not just about the of ethical questions, not just about the of ethical questions, not just about the behavior of the lawyers, but about the behavior of the lawyers, but about the behavior of the lawyers, but about the methods used by Global Witness in making methods used by Global Witness in making methods used by Global Witness in making them. We showed the footage to Bill them. We showed the footage to Bill them. We showed the footage to Bill Simon, a law professor at Columbia Simon, a law professor at Columbia Simon, a law professor at Columbia University, who is one of the country's University, who is one of the country's University, who is one of the country's top legal ethicists. top legal ethicists. top legal ethicists. >> I think it's uh draws attention to the >> I think it's uh draws attention to the >> I think it's uh draws attention to the fact that lawyers may be playing an fact that lawyers may be playing an fact that lawyers may be playing an important role in moneyaundering that important role in moneyaundering that important role in moneyaundering that requires more scrutiny. requires more scrutiny. requires more scrutiny. >> Have you ever seen anything like this >> Have you ever seen anything like this >> Have you ever seen anything like this before? before? before? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> What's your overall impression of it? >> What's your overall impression of it? >> What's your overall impression of it? Any lawyer is going to be uncomfortable Any lawyer is going to be uncomfortable Any lawyer is going to be uncomfortable about the fact that this was a sting in about the fact that this was a sting in about the fact that this was a sting in which somebody lied his way into a which somebody lied his way into a which somebody lied his way into a lawyer's office and secretly recorded lawyer's office and secretly recorded lawyer's office and secretly recorded statements a lawyer was uh thought he statements a lawyer was uh thought he statements a lawyer was uh thought he was making to a client. That's kind of was making to a client. That's kind of was making to a client. That's kind of unprecedented and it's kind of unprecedented and it's kind of unprecedented and it's kind of inconsistent with the bar's norms about inconsistent with the bar's norms about inconsistent with the bar's norms about confidentiality. So, I'm a little uneasy confidentiality. So, I'm a little uneasy confidentiality. So, I'm a little uneasy about that. Uh on the other hand, um I about that. Uh on the other hand, um I about that. Uh on the other hand, um I think that the tapes expose conduct of think that the tapes expose conduct of think that the tapes expose conduct of great public consequence. You think it's great public consequence. You think it's great public consequence. You think it's valuable that the public sees it?

valuable that the public sees it? valuable that the public sees it? >> Yeah, I think it's very valuable. You >> Yeah, I think it's very valuable. You >> Yeah, I think it's very valuable. You know, confidentiality is for the benefit know, confidentiality is for the benefit know, confidentiality is for the benefit of the client, not the lawyer. But the of the client, not the lawyer. But the of the client, not the lawyer. But the lawyers benefit from it because conduct lawyers benefit from it because conduct lawyers benefit from it because conduct that goes on under the protection of that goes on under the protection of that goes on under the protection of confidentiality is never scrutinized by confidentiality is never scrutinized by confidentiality is never scrutinized by the public and lawyers are never the public and lawyers are never the public and lawyers are never accountable for it. So, the sting accountable for it. So, the sting accountable for it. So, the sting actually brings some accountability to actually brings some accountability to actually brings some accountability to conduct that ought to be accountable. In conduct that ought to be accountable. In conduct that ought to be accountable. In its own report, Global Witness includes its own report, Global Witness includes its own report, Global Witness includes an opinion from two legal ethicists, an opinion from two legal ethicists, an opinion from two legal ethicists, including Bill Simon of Colombia. It including Bill Simon of Colombia. It including Bill Simon of Colombia. It says that if attorneys Mark Copick, John says that if attorneys Mark Copick, John says that if attorneys Mark Copick, John Jankoff, and Gerald Ross had been Jankoff, and Gerald Ross had been Jankoff, and Gerald Ross had been responding to a real request, their responding to a real request, their responding to a real request, their conduct would not comply with the conduct would not comply with the conduct would not comply with the professional responsibilities of professional responsibilities of professional responsibilities of lawyers. It said the attorneys displayed lawyers. It said the attorneys displayed lawyers. It said the attorneys displayed a cynical and evasive attitude toward a cynical and evasive attitude toward a cynical and evasive attitude toward law. The ethsist also noted that the law. The ethsist also noted that the law. The ethsist also noted that the rules are vague and we do not expect rules are vague and we do not expect rules are vague and we do not expect that all lawyers will agree with us. that all lawyers will agree with us. that all lawyers will agree with us. Simon put then ABA President James Simon put then ABA President James Simon put then ABA President James Silkenaut and his partner Hugh Finnegan Silkenaut and his partner Hugh Finnegan Silkenaut and his partner Hugh Finnegan in a different category even though they in a different category even though they in a different category even though they provided advice on how to move provided advice on how to move provided advice on how to move questionable funds into the US.

questionable funds into the US. questionable funds into the US. >> What makes Silkenaut different from the >> What makes Silkenaut different from the >> What makes Silkenaut different from the other lawyers? Silken was quite clear other lawyers? Silken was quite clear other lawyers? Silken was quite clear that he would not assist illegal conduct that he would not assist illegal conduct that he would not assist illegal conduct and he he even indicated at one point and he he even indicated at one point and he he even indicated at one point that he would report the client if he that he would report the client if he that he would report the client if he found the client engaged in illegal found the client engaged in illegal found the client engaged in illegal conduct. And then also Silkenaut was conduct. And then also Silkenaut was conduct. And then also Silkenaut was fairly clear that uh he would need more fairly clear that uh he would need more fairly clear that uh he would need more information before he agreed to information before he agreed to information before he agreed to represent the client. represent the client. represent the client. >> On the other hand, he clearly seems >> On the other hand, he clearly seems >> On the other hand, he clearly seems interested in this. interested in this. interested in this. >> He clearly seems interested and even a >> He clearly seems interested and even a >> He clearly seems interested and even a little enthusiastic about it. little enthusiastic about it. little enthusiastic about it. >> Anything wrong with that? I find it >> Anything wrong with that? I find it >> Anything wrong with that? I find it regrettable, but I I'm not sure as a regrettable, but I I'm not sure as a regrettable, but I I'm not sure as a professional responsibility authority I professional responsibility authority I professional responsibility authority I could say it was inconsistent with his could say it was inconsistent with his could say it was inconsistent with his duties under the rules. duties under the rules. duties under the rules. >> Simon says the only lawyer who truly >> Simon says the only lawyer who truly >> Simon says the only lawyer who truly fulfilled the ideals of the legal fulfilled the ideals of the legal fulfilled the ideals of the legal profession was Jeffrey Herman, who profession was Jeffrey Herman, who profession was Jeffrey Herman, who listened to the pitch, decided it listened to the pitch, decided it listened to the pitch, decided it probably involved illegal activity, and probably involved illegal activity, and probably involved illegal activity, and ended the meeting. ended the meeting. ended the meeting. >> This ain't for me. My standards are >> This ain't for me. My standards are >> This ain't for me. My standards are higher. I'm not interested. Do you have higher. I'm not interested. Do you have higher. I'm not interested. Do you have do you know anybody who would be able to do you know anybody who would be able to do you know anybody who would be able to >> I don't think so and I wouldn't >> I don't think so and I wouldn't >> I don't think so and I wouldn't recommend either way.

recommend either way. recommend either way. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> because those persons would be insulted. >> because those persons would be insulted. >> because those persons would be insulted. >> Charmeian Gu says the point of Global >> Charmeian Gu says the point of Global >> Charmeian Gu says the point of Global Witness's hidden camera investigation Witness's hidden camera investigation Witness's hidden camera investigation was not to target or entrap lawyers for was not to target or entrap lawyers for was not to target or entrap lawyers for bad behavior. The problem, she says, are bad behavior. The problem, she says, are bad behavior. The problem, she says, are lax laws and toothless regulations that lax laws and toothless regulations that lax laws and toothless regulations that make it ridiculously easy for criminals make it ridiculously easy for criminals make it ridiculously easy for criminals to launder $300 billion dollars a year to launder $300 billion dollars a year to launder $300 billion dollars a year in the United States. in the United States. in the United States. >> This is real public interest >> This is real public interest >> This is real public interest information. How are you going to get information. How are you going to get information. How are you going to get that out to them if you can't show them that out to them if you can't show them that out to them if you can't show them what's happening behind closed doors? what's happening behind closed doors? what's happening behind closed doors? >> You couldn't have done this any other >> You couldn't have done this any other >> You couldn't have done this any other way. But I think unless the public and way. But I think unless the public and way. But I think unless the public and policy makers can really see for policy makers can really see for policy makers can really see for themselves what gets said across the themselves what gets said across the themselves what gets said across the desk, across the table in a meeting like desk, across the table in a meeting like desk, across the table in a meeting like this, it's kind of hard to really this, it's kind of hard to really this, it's kind of hard to really believe and take on board. believe and take on board. believe and take on board. >> Gu says there's a simple solution, but >> Gu says there's a simple solution, but >> Gu says there's a simple solution, but it's been politically impossible to it's been politically impossible to it's been politically impossible to achieve in the United States. Just ask achieve in the United States. Just ask achieve in the United States. Just ask Carl Lean, the longtime chairman of the Carl Lean, the longtime chairman of the Carl Lean, the longtime chairman of the Senate's permanent subcommittee on Senate's permanent subcommittee on Senate's permanent subcommittee on Investigation. Investigation. Investigation. until he retired last year. He spent until he retired last year. He spent until he retired last year. He spent years trying to pass a law that would years trying to pass a law that would years trying to pass a law that would require the states to collect one require the states to collect one require the states to collect one additional piece of information from additional piece of information from additional piece of information from people forming corporations.

people forming corporations. people forming corporations. >> One line, who's the real owner? Not >> One line, who's the real owner? Not >> One line, who's the real owner? Not who's the agent forming it, not who's who's the agent forming it, not who's who's the agent forming it, not who's the lawyer representing the owner, who the lawyer representing the owner, who the lawyer representing the owner, who is the beneficial owner, the real owner. is the beneficial owner, the real owner. is the beneficial owner, the real owner. And it's it's not at all complicated. And it's it's not at all complicated. And it's it's not at all complicated. But the bills never made it out of But the bills never made it out of But the bills never made it out of committee in part because of strong committee in part because of strong committee in part because of strong opposition from the American Bar opposition from the American Bar opposition from the American Bar Association. Association. Association. >> What's the American Bar Association's >> What's the American Bar Association's >> What's the American Bar Association's objection to this? objection to this? objection to this? >> The lawyers are helping form >> The lawyers are helping form >> The lawyers are helping form corporations. And they're afraid, I corporations. And they're afraid, I corporations. And they're afraid, I guess, that if you put a damper on the guess, that if you put a damper on the guess, that if you put a damper on the formation of corporations that you're formation of corporations that you're formation of corporations that you're putting some damper on legal business. putting some damper on legal business. putting some damper on legal business. The irony is that the White House, the The irony is that the White House, the The irony is that the White House, the Justice Department, and the US Treasury Justice Department, and the US Treasury Justice Department, and the US Treasury have been among the world's strongest have been among the world's strongest have been among the world's strongest proponents for cracking down on money proponents for cracking down on money proponents for cracking down on money laundering. Yet, the US is one of the laundering. Yet, the US is one of the laundering. Yet, the US is one of the easiest places in the world to set up easiest places in the world to set up easiest places in the world to set up the anonymous companies that facilitate the anonymous companies that facilitate the anonymous companies that facilitate it. it. it. >> It's a heck of a paradox, isn't it? And, >> It's a heck of a paradox, isn't it? And, >> It's a heck of a paradox, isn't it? And, you know, I think that the American Bar you know, I think that the American Bar you know, I think that the American Bar Association needs to get behind the need Association needs to get behind the need Association needs to get behind the need for regulation in the way that European for regulation in the way that European for regulation in the way that European lawyers um have had to do exactly the lawyers um have had to do exactly the lawyers um have had to do exactly the same. And I think that um you know it's same. And I think that um you know it's same. And I think that um you know it's I think the American government needs to I think the American government needs to I think the American government needs to answer that question.

answer that question. answer that question. >> Global witness may have inadvertently >> Global witness may have inadvertently >> Global witness may have inadvertently gotten a sassy answer to that question gotten a sassy answer to that question gotten a sassy answer to that question from attorney Mark Copick in its hidden from attorney Mark Copick in its hidden from attorney Mark Copick in its hidden camera video. Cpp explained to the camera video. Cpp explained to the camera video. Cpp explained to the representative of the phony African representative of the phony African representative of the phony African minister why he never worried about minister why he never worried about minister why he never worried about government subpoenas. government subpoenas. government subpoenas. >> They don't send the lawyers to jail >> They don't send the lawyers to jail >> They don't send the lawyers to jail because we run the country. because we run the country. because we run the country. >> Do you run the country? >> Do you run the country? >> Do you run the country? >> Still do. >> Still do. >> Still do. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> Still do. >> Still do. >> Still do. I should say some lawyers run the I should say some lawyers run the I should say some lawyers run the country. country. country. >> So you are you are some of them. Two of >> So you are you are some of them. Two of >> So you are you are some of them. Two of them. them. them. >> Yeah. A small amount. >> Yeah. A small amount. >> Yeah. A small amount. >> We're still members of of a privilege >> We're still members of of a privilege >> We're still members of of a privilege privileged class in this country. privileged class in this country. privileged class in this country. >> So how what does it mean you run the >> So how what does it mean you run the >> So how what does it mean you run the country? uh means you country? uh means you country? uh means you >> we make the laws and when we do so we >> we make the laws and when we do so we >> we make the laws and when we do so we make them in a way that is advantageous make them in a way that is advantageous make them in a way that is advantageous to the lawyers Presidents have been pardoning criminals Presidents have been pardoning criminals since George Washington. It's a since George Washington. It's a since George Washington. It's a constitutional power. No explanation constitutional power. No explanation constitutional power. No explanation needed. The Department of Justice does needed. The Department of Justice does needed. The Department of Justice does screen applicants and typically only screen applicants and typically only screen applicants and typically only recommends those who remorsefully seek recommends those who remorsefully seek recommends those who remorsefully seek mercy, but that's not always been the mercy, but that's not always been the mercy, but that's not always been the process. President Ford pardoned Richard process. President Ford pardoned Richard process. President Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. President Clinton, Mark Rich

Nixon. President Clinton, Mark Rich Nixon. President Clinton, Mark Rich after donations, President Biden, his after donations, President Biden, his after donations, President Biden, his son Hunter, and Anthony Fouchy. son Hunter, and Anthony Fouchy. son Hunter, and Anthony Fouchy. President Trump. He's developed his own President Trump. He's developed his own President Trump. He's developed his own vetting system, pardoning political vetting system, pardoning political vetting system, pardoning political allies, including all of the January 6 allies, including all of the January 6 allies, including all of the January 6 riers, as well as a string of riers, as well as a string of riers, as well as a string of unrepentant financial conmen who argued, unrepentant financial conmen who argued, unrepentant financial conmen who argued, just like him, that they were wrongly just like him, that they were wrongly just like him, that they were wrongly prosecuted. prosecuted. prosecuted. How did these people get their How did these people get their How did these people get their grievances in the president's ear? grievances in the president's ear? grievances in the president's ear? Donations appear to help and those who Donations appear to help and those who Donations appear to help and those who can pay hire pardon brokers, lawyers and can pay hire pardon brokers, lawyers and can pay hire pardon brokers, lawyers and lobbyists who sell their ties to the lobbyists who sell their ties to the lobbyists who sell their ties to the president for exorbitant fees. It's a president for exorbitant fees. It's a president for exorbitant fees. It's a marketplace of money and mercy. marketplace of money and mercy. marketplace of money and mercy. >> Ammon Cavino is seeking a pardon. Seated >> Ammon Cavino is seeking a pardon. Seated >> Ammon Cavino is seeking a pardon. Seated is his wife Crystal. And joining them at is his wife Crystal. And joining them at is his wife Crystal. And joining them at this Virginia hotel lounge are lobbyists this Virginia hotel lounge are lobbyists this Virginia hotel lounge are lobbyists Jacob Wool and Jack Burkeman who don't Jacob Wool and Jack Burkeman who don't Jacob Wool and Jack Burkeman who don't know they're being recorded as they know they're being recorded as they know they're being recorded as they pitch their services as pardon brokers.

pitch their services as pardon brokers. pitch their services as pardon brokers. >> Look, you you can't you can't just >> Look, you you can't you can't just >> Look, you you can't you can't just submit a pardon application. It doesn't submit a pardon application. It doesn't submit a pardon application. It doesn't it doesn't work that way. it doesn't work that way. it doesn't work that way. >> Ammon is a felon. His >> Ammon is a felon. His >> Ammon is a felon. His >> whole body tensed at once. >> whole body tensed at once. >> whole body tensed at once. >> The Cavinos run several zoos and >> The Cavinos run several zoos and >> The Cavinos run several zoos and aquariums. A decade ago, he was aquariums. A decade ago, he was aquariums. A decade ago, he was convicted of illegal wildlife convicted of illegal wildlife convicted of illegal wildlife trafficking and served 23 months in trafficking and served 23 months in trafficking and served 23 months in prison. He applied for a pardon, taking prison. He applied for a pardon, taking prison. He applied for a pardon, taking the regular route through the Justice the regular route through the Justice the regular route through the Justice Department. Department. Department. >> We just filled out the form. >> We just filled out the form. >> We just filled out the form. >> It's a three-page form. >> It's a three-page form. >> It's a three-page form. >> And what happened? >> And what happened? >> And what happened? >> When the pardons came out, we were on >> When the pardons came out, we were on >> When the pardons came out, we were on the list of rejections. the list of rejections. the list of rejections. >> So, we asked him to try again the new >> So, we asked him to try again the new >> So, we asked him to try again the new way. way. way. >> Why? We had wanted to interview brokers >> Why? We had wanted to interview brokers >> Why? We had wanted to interview brokers who promise pardon seekers they can who promise pardon seekers they can who promise pardon seekers they can circumvent the justice department for a circumvent the justice department for a circumvent the justice department for a hefty fee. What they do is not illegal, hefty fee. What they do is not illegal, hefty fee. What they do is not illegal, yet none would talk to us. So he asked yet none would talk to us. So he asked yet none would talk to us. So he asked Ammon to engage with these access Ammon to engage with these access Ammon to engage with these access merchants as if he's reapplying for a merchants as if he's reapplying for a merchants as if he's reapplying for a pardon and let our cameras follow him. pardon and let our cameras follow him. pardon and let our cameras follow him. First, he emailed a dozen of these First, he emailed a dozen of these First, he emailed a dozen of these brokers.

brokers. brokers. How fast did they get back to you? Some How fast did they get back to you? Some How fast did they get back to you? Some got right away and some within a day. got right away and some within a day. got right away and some within a day. Right away. Yes. Exclamation point. Right away. Yes. Exclamation point. Right away. Yes. Exclamation point. Exclamation point. We're the people that Exclamation point. We're the people that Exclamation point. We're the people that can help you do that. I kept saying, can help you do that. I kept saying, can help you do that. I kept saying, "This feels illegal." I get on my AI and "This feels illegal." I get on my AI and "This feels illegal." I get on my AI and say, "Is this illegal?" No, this is how say, "Is this illegal?" No, this is how say, "Is this illegal?" No, this is how it's done. it's done. it's done. >> But thanks for taking my call. >> But thanks for taking my call. >> But thanks for taking my call. >> Looking at our case, you think? >> Looking at our case, you think? >> Looking at our case, you think? >> In a series of phone calls, one broker >> In a series of phone calls, one broker >> In a series of phone calls, one broker after another bragged about their close after another bragged about their close after another bragged about their close relationships to President Trump's inner relationships to President Trump's inner relationships to President Trump's inner circle. circle. circle. >> Okay, thanks guys. We are about to >> Okay, thanks guys. We are about to >> Okay, thanks guys. We are about to >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within seven minutes. seven minutes. seven minutes. >> We encourage everyone to act with the >> We encourage everyone to act with the >> We encourage everyone to act with the highest professionalism. highest professionalism. highest professionalism. >> Jack Burkeman and Jacob Wool are Trump >> Jack Burkeman and Jacob Wool are Trump >> Jack Burkeman and Jacob Wool are Trump loyalists with a long resume of loyalists with a long resume of loyalists with a long resume of political stunts. political stunts. political stunts. >> Who's who's next? >> Who's who's next? >> Who's who's next? >> Who's next? We got that one. >> Who's next? We got that one. >> Who's next? We got that one. >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black voting in 2020 led to a criminal voting in 2020 led to a criminal voting in 2020 led to a criminal conviction. Now in the pardons game, conviction. Now in the pardons game, conviction. Now in the pardons game, they claim they got one for this owner they claim they got one for this owner they claim they got one for this owner of a nursing home chain. convicted of of a nursing home chain. convicted of of a nursing home chain. convicted of massive tax fraud. He paid them nearly a massive tax fraud. He paid them nearly a massive tax fraud. He paid them nearly a million dollars for their promise to million dollars for their promise to million dollars for their promise to reach the president. We found that some reach the president. We found that some reach the president. We found that some brokers charge as much as $3 million.

brokers charge as much as $3 million. brokers charge as much as $3 million. So, we decided to use hidden cameras and So, we decided to use hidden cameras and So, we decided to use hidden cameras and sent the cavinos to meet Burkeman and sent the cavinos to meet Burkeman and sent the cavinos to meet Burkeman and Mole. Mole. Mole. >> I don't think your pardon I don't think >> I don't think your pardon I don't think >> I don't think your pardon I don't think it'll be too difficult. it'll be too difficult. it'll be too difficult. >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon plea in the hands of the president and plea in the hands of the president and plea in the hands of the president and push push push >> with this particular White House. You >> with this particular White House. You >> with this particular White House. You have to put pressure on the president have to put pressure on the president have to put pressure on the president from all directions in [clears throat] a from all directions in [clears throat] a from all directions in [clears throat] a consistent way to force his hand. We consistent way to force his hand. We consistent way to force his hand. We literally want to put the pen in his literally want to put the pen in his literally want to put the pen in his hand and get him to sign it because he's hand and get him to sign it because he's hand and get him to sign it because he's tired of hearing about it. tired of hearing about it. tired of hearing about it. >> So when you went the regular route, how >> So when you went the regular route, how >> So when you went the regular route, how much did it cost you? much did it cost you? much did it cost you? >> A postage stamp. >> A postage stamp. >> A postage stamp. >> Postage stamp. That's it. And this would >> Postage stamp. That's it. And this would >> Postage stamp. That's it. And this would cost you $300,000. cost you $300,000. cost you $300,000. >> What What did you say? >> What What did you say? >> What What did you say? >> I said, "What's it for?" And they said, >> I said, "What's it for?" And they said, >> I said, "What's it for?" And they said, "Well, we have to buy tickets. We have "Well, we have to buy tickets. We have "Well, we have to buy tickets. We have to go to Marila Lago. We have to attend to go to Marila Lago. We have to attend to go to Marila Lago. We have to attend events that the president's at. We have events that the president's at. We have events that the president's at. We have to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a fundraiser that the president is fundraiser that the president is fundraiser that the president is attending. attending. attending. >> They said we have to hire contractors to >> They said we have to hire contractors to >> They said we have to hire contractors to do certain things. Well, do certain things. Well, do certain things. Well, >> influencers.

>> influencers. >> influencers. >> Influencers that know other people that >> Influencers that know other people that >> Influencers that know other people that can put us in the vicinity of the people can put us in the vicinity of the people can put us in the vicinity of the people that can make a difference. that can make a difference. that can make a difference. >> What we do is we mobilize members of >> What we do is we mobilize members of >> What we do is we mobilize members of Congress to call here. We use certain Congress to call here. We use certain Congress to call here. We use certain influencers who have regular meetings to influencers who have regular meetings to influencers who have regular meetings to call him and we put him in a pinser call him and we put him in a pinser call him and we put him in a pinser movement. movement. movement. >> Burkeman and Wool made a similar pitch >> Burkeman and Wool made a similar pitch >> Burkeman and Wool made a similar pitch to Boozy Badass, to Boozy Badass, to Boozy Badass, >> a rapper with a lengthy criminal record >> a rapper with a lengthy criminal record >> a rapper with a lengthy criminal record after he was convicted on a gun charge. after he was convicted on a gun charge. after he was convicted on a gun charge. >> This is what I was led to believe. If >> This is what I was led to believe. If >> This is what I was led to believe. If you come with this money, you will get a you come with this money, you will get a you come with this money, you will get a pardon. pardon. pardon. >> How much did you give them up front? >> How much did you give them up front? >> How much did you give them up front? >> 600K. >> 600K. >> 600K. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> we have some texts that they sent to >> we have some texts that they sent to >> we have some texts that they sent to your lawyer. your lawyer. your lawyer. >> This text listed the influential people >> This text listed the influential people >> This text listed the influential people they supposedly recruited. they supposedly recruited. they supposedly recruited. >> Laura Loomer, Erica Kirk, Mike Johnson, >> Laura Loomer, Erica Kirk, Mike Johnson, >> Laura Loomer, Erica Kirk, Mike Johnson, he's the speaker of the house. Another he's the speaker of the house. Another he's the speaker of the house. Another text, the broker mentions Natalie Harp.

text, the broker mentions Natalie Harp. text, the broker mentions Natalie Harp. She's the executive assistant that's She's the executive assistant that's She's the executive assistant that's very close to the president and suggests very close to the president and suggests very close to the president and suggests that she's going to personally hand your that she's going to personally hand your that she's going to personally hand your application to the president. application to the president. application to the president. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just thought I mean this >> Yeah. Yeah. I just thought I mean this >> Yeah. Yeah. I just thought I mean this is the way it's done. I'm paying these is the way it's done. I'm paying these is the way it's done. I'm paying these guys, you know, and and they going to guys, you know, and and they going to guys, you know, and and they going to make it happen. make it happen. make it happen. >> They didn't make it happen. Boozy didn't >> They didn't make it happen. Boozy didn't >> They didn't make it happen. Boozy didn't get his pardon. As for the four people get his pardon. As for the four people get his pardon. As for the four people they claimed to know, they denied any they claimed to know, they denied any they claimed to know, they denied any involvement in the case. Boozy's involvement in the case. Boozy's involvement in the case. Boozy's contract with the broker stipulated that contract with the broker stipulated that contract with the broker stipulated that if he wasn't pardoned he'd get half his if he wasn't pardoned he'd get half his if he wasn't pardoned he'd get half his money back but they won't pay claiming money back but they won't pay claiming money back but they won't pay claiming the contract is invalid and denying they the contract is invalid and denying they the contract is invalid and denying they sent the text. The rapper is suing. sent the text. The rapper is suing. sent the text. The rapper is suing. >> I said just return it. You didn't get my >> I said just return it. You didn't get my >> I said just return it. You didn't get my pardon. It's it's a bunch of BS and they pardon. It's it's a bunch of BS and they pardon. It's it's a bunch of BS and they were so cocky. There's definitely a lot were so cocky. There's definitely a lot were so cocky. There's definitely a lot of money flowing around and that makes a of money flowing around and that makes a of money flowing around and that makes a uh petri dish for corruption. uh petri dish for corruption. uh petri dish for corruption. >> Law professor Mark Oler of the >> Law professor Mark Oler of the >> Law professor Mark Oler of the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota University of St. Thomas in Minnesota University of St. Thomas in Minnesota has spent the past 15 years helping has spent the past 15 years helping has spent the past 15 years helping indigent felons apply for pardons. Now indigent felons apply for pardons. Now indigent felons apply for pardons. Now he says they're locked out of the he says they're locked out of the he says they're locked out of the system. People think, well, if I can get system. People think, well, if I can get system. People think, well, if I can get to this person who can find the to this person who can find the to this person who can find the president of Mara Lago, if I can pay a president of Mara Lago, if I can pay a president of Mara Lago, if I can pay a million dollars to this friend of a million dollars to this friend of a million dollars to this friend of a White House council, then I will have a White House council, then I will have a White House council, then I will have a shot. And that is not a system. That's shot. And that is not a system. That's shot. And that is not a system. That's something different entirely. It's something different entirely. It's something different entirely. It's anarchy.

anarchy. anarchy. >> In the new system, no expression of >> In the new system, no expression of >> In the new system, no expression of remorse that you know of. remorse that you know of. remorse that you know of. >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a winning tactic for some people is winning tactic for some people is winning tactic for some people is exactly the opposite. saying the people exactly the opposite. saying the people exactly the opposite. saying the people who were wrong were the people who who were wrong were the people who who were wrong were the people who accused me that I have been a a victim accused me that I have been a a victim accused me that I have been a a victim of a weaponized uh Department of of a weaponized uh Department of of a weaponized uh Department of Justice. This is a vicious group of Justice. This is a vicious group of Justice. This is a vicious group of people that were in this office before people that were in this office before people that were in this office before us. us. us. >> Burkeman and Wool told the Cavinos to >> Burkeman and Wool told the Cavinos to >> Burkeman and Wool told the Cavinos to tap into the president's grievances and tap into the president's grievances and tap into the president's grievances and say that Ammon was a victim of a say that Ammon was a victim of a say that Ammon was a victim of a weaponized prosecution. weaponized prosecution. weaponized prosecution. >> It's a question of reminding the >> It's a question of reminding the >> It's a question of reminding the president this is an Obama prosecution president this is an Obama prosecution president this is an Obama prosecution that never should have happened. He told that never should have happened. He told that never should have happened. He told them this White House vets cases them this White House vets cases them this White House vets cases differently. differently. differently. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. He relies very little on DOJ. So with He relies very little on DOJ. So with He relies very little on DOJ. So with Trump, DOJ is Trump, DOJ is Trump, DOJ is >> it's an afterthought. >> it's an afterthought. >> it's an afterthought. >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ, appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ, appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ, where 16,000 applications are awaiting a where 16,000 applications are awaiting a where 16,000 applications are awaiting a decision. People pay $300,000, decision. People pay $300,000, decision. People pay $300,000, a million do $3 million to these brokers a million do $3 million to these brokers a million do $3 million to these brokers to get the application before the to get the application before the to get the application before the president. Meanwhile, all these other president. Meanwhile, all these other president. Meanwhile, all these other people that you look at at the people that you look at at the people that you look at at the Department of Justice, they are not Department of Justice, they are not Department of Justice, they are not getting their pardons.

getting their pardons. getting their pardons. >> And is that a fair system? >> And is that a fair system? >> And is that a fair system? >> I've not seen I I reject your >> I've not seen I I reject your >> I've not seen I I reject your characterization of the system. I've not characterization of the system. I've not characterization of the system. I've not seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat with a thousand people over in the last with a thousand people over in the last with a thousand people over in the last year in my office and I listened to them year in my office and I listened to them year in my office and I listened to them tell and some of them were ended up with tell and some of them were ended up with tell and some of them were ended up with clemency, some of them were pardoned. clemency, some of them were pardoned. clemency, some of them were pardoned. >> We checked about 70% of President >> We checked about 70% of President >> We checked about 70% of President Trump's clemencies in his second term Trump's clemencies in his second term Trump's clemencies in his second term have not gone through DOJ. If you have not gone through DOJ. If you have not gone through DOJ. If you include the January 6th riers, that goes include the January 6th riers, that goes include the January 6th riers, that goes up to 92%. up to 92%. up to 92%. And we notice that some pardons came And we notice that some pardons came And we notice that some pardons came after welltimed donations or a business after welltimed donations or a business after welltimed donations or a business deal. Take for example this businessman deal. Take for example this businessman deal. Take for example this businessman who was sent to prison for fraud. He who was sent to prison for fraud. He who was sent to prison for fraud. He conned investors with this video of the conned investors with this video of the conned investors with this video of the first zero emission truck driving along. first zero emission truck driving along. first zero emission truck driving along. It was actually a fake rolling down a It was actually a fake rolling down a It was actually a fake rolling down a hill. After he and his wife donated hill. After he and his wife donated hill. After he and his wife donated almost $2 million to support Trump's almost $2 million to support Trump's almost $2 million to support Trump's reelection, he was pardoned. reelection, he was pardoned. reelection, he was pardoned. This CEO failed to prevent money This CEO failed to prevent money This CEO failed to prevent money laundering on his crypto exchange. He laundering on his crypto exchange. He laundering on his crypto exchange. He was pardoned after his company Binance was pardoned after his company Binance was pardoned after his company Binance boosted a Trump family crypto venture, boosted a Trump family crypto venture, boosted a Trump family crypto venture, though both sides deny any connection to though both sides deny any connection to though both sides deny any connection to the pardon. And this healthc care the pardon. And this healthc care the pardon. And this healthc care executive convicted of tax crimes was executive convicted of tax crimes was executive convicted of tax crimes was pardoned after his mother paid a million pardoned after his mother paid a million pardoned after his mother paid a million dollars to attend a Mara Lago dollars to attend a Mara Lago dollars to attend a Mara Lago fundraiser. a pardon seeker going to fundraiser. a pardon seeker going to fundraiser. a pardon seeker going to Mara Lago and joining an a fundraising

Mara Lago and joining an a fundraising Mara Lago and joining an a fundraising event where you had to pay money and event where you had to pay money and event where you had to pay money and then getting a pardon. Why isn't that a then getting a pardon. Why isn't that a then getting a pardon. Why isn't that a quidd proquo? Why isn't that paytoplay? quidd proquo? Why isn't that paytoplay? quidd proquo? Why isn't that paytoplay? >> I I don't know about those examples, but >> I I don't know about those examples, but >> I I don't know about those examples, but I would just say the prerogative again, I would just say the prerogative again, I would just say the prerogative again, the presidential prerogative, the it's the presidential prerogative, the it's the presidential prerogative, the it's in the constitution. It's complete. It's in the constitution. It's complete. It's in the constitution. It's complete. It's plenary. When people say there's plenary. When people say there's plenary. When people say there's brokers, there's quid pro code. I've brokers, there's quid pro code. I've brokers, there's quid pro code. I've never seen it. I haven't seen it. I never seen it. I haven't seen it. I never seen it. I haven't seen it. I haven't heard it, haven't heard it, haven't heard it, >> Ed. >> Ed. >> Ed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The point is they're going around you. >> The point is they're going around you. >> The point is they're going around you. >> Well, I I >> Well, I I >> Well, I I >> And the whole point they're bragging >> And the whole point they're bragging >> And the whole point they're bragging about going around you. about going around you. about going around you. >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence of some magical brokers. I think people of some magical brokers. I think people of some magical brokers. I think people are trying to make money. are trying to make money. are trying to make money. >> So, are you saying that these brokers, >> So, are you saying that these brokers, >> So, are you saying that these brokers, they're conmen? they're conmen? they're conmen? >> They're snake oil salesmen. They're >> They're snake oil salesmen. They're >> They're snake oil salesmen. They're swamp salesmen. What do you want? What swamp salesmen. What do you want? What swamp salesmen. What do you want? What word do you want? word do you want? word do you want? >> We want to do this. I think we can help >> We want to do this. I think we can help >> We want to do this. I think we can help you. After we notified Jack Burkeman and you. After we notified Jack Burkeman and you. After we notified Jack Burkeman and Jacob Wool of our hidden camera Jacob Wool of our hidden camera Jacob Wool of our hidden camera operation, operation, operation, >> a sting operation client, a fake client, >> a sting operation client, a fake client, >> a sting operation client, a fake client, >> a sting run by you, right? >> a sting run by you, right? >> a sting run by you, right? >> They agreed to sit down with us to >> They agreed to sit down with us to >> They agreed to sit down with us to discuss the new pardon economy.

discuss the new pardon economy. discuss the new pardon economy. >> There's nothing corrupt about it. >> There's nothing corrupt about it. >> There's nothing corrupt about it. There's nothing improper about it. There's nothing improper about it. There's nothing improper about it. >> It seems that you have to have money to >> It seems that you have to have money to >> It seems that you have to have money to get a pardon these days. get a pardon these days. get a pardon these days. >> We don't work for free anymore than you >> We don't work for free anymore than you >> We don't work for free anymore than you do, right? You're well paid for what you do, right? You're well paid for what you do, right? You're well paid for what you do. We're well paid for what I do. do. We're well paid for what I do. do. We're well paid for what I do. Navigating Washington, as you well know, Navigating Washington, as you well know, Navigating Washington, as you well know, is not an easy thing. The average is not an easy thing. The average is not an easy thing. The average person, the average rich person, they person, the average rich person, they person, the average rich person, they need help doing that. How will the need help doing that. How will the need help doing that. How will the president become aware of these cases president become aware of these cases president become aware of these cases unless unless unless >> So the normal way that presidents have >> So the normal way that presidents have >> So the normal way that presidents have done it for a hundred years only? done it for a hundred years only? done it for a hundred years only? >> Lobbyists have been hired for two >> Lobbyists have been hired for two >> Lobbyists have been hired for two centuries to do just that. centuries to do just that. centuries to do just that. >> People have gone through a system. >> People have gone through a system. >> People have gone through a system. >> Do you think there weren't lobbyists >> Do you think there weren't lobbyists >> Do you think there weren't lobbyists working on pardons in the Obama working on pardons in the Obama working on pardons in the Obama administration or the Biden administration or the Biden administration or the Biden administration? There have always been administration? There have always been administration? There have always been lawyers who are willing to prepare a lawyers who are willing to prepare a lawyers who are willing to prepare a clemency petition um often for a couple clemency petition um often for a couple clemency petition um often for a couple thousand dollars. You know what's thousand dollars. You know what's thousand dollars. You know what's changed is the amount of money that that changed is the amount of money that that changed is the amount of money that that people are charging. people are charging. people are charging. >> Professor Osler hopes the pardon system >> Professor Osler hopes the pardon system >> Professor Osler hopes the pardon system isn't beyond repair. We have learned isn't beyond repair. We have learned isn't beyond repair. We have learned that the White House has become that the White House has become that the White House has become sensitive to the perception that the sensitive to the perception that the sensitive to the perception that the president is selling pardons. president is selling pardons. president is selling pardons. >> If you go that route, it's >> If you go that route, it's >> If you go that route, it's >> all the brokers warned the cavinos to >> all the brokers warned the cavinos to >> all the brokers warned the cavinos to avoid donating. You can't blame people avoid donating. You can't blame people avoid donating. You can't blame people who want to get out of prison for doing who want to get out of prison for doing who want to get out of prison for doing what they're told works, what they're told works, what they're told works, >> but I can blame the people who are >> but I can blame the people who are >> but I can blame the people who are making that the system.

making that the system. making that the system. >> So, it's the brokers >> So, it's the brokers >> So, it's the brokers and the lobbyists and the lawyers in and the lobbyists and the lawyers in and the lobbyists and the lawyers in this game. this game. this game. >> It's really in the end, it falls on the >> It's really in the end, it falls on the >> It's really in the end, it falls on the administration. administration. administration. >> Look at that bite. >> Look at that bite. >> Look at that bite. >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy feels like cheating. It feels unfair. It feels like cheating. It feels unfair. It feels like cheating. It feels unfair. It >> feels unfair. >> feels unfair. >> feels unfair. >> Let's say the money was not an issue for >> Let's say the money was not an issue for >> Let's say the money was not an issue for you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you do it? you do it? you do it? >> Yes. I don't like the fact that you have >> Yes. I don't like the fact that you have >> Yes. I don't like the fact that you have to pay for such an huge amount of money to pay for such an huge amount of money to pay for such an huge amount of money because of who you know. But if it's if because of who you know. But if it's if because of who you know. But if it's if that's how the games play, then that's that's how the games play, then that's that's how the games play, then that's how the game's played. how the game's played. how the game's played. The White House told us, quote, "Anyone The White House told us, quote, "Anyone The White House told us, quote, "Anyone spending money to lobby for pardons is spending money to lobby for pardons is spending money to lobby for pardons is foolishly wasting their money, adding, foolishly wasting their money, adding, foolishly wasting their money, adding, quote, President Trump performs his quote, President Trump performs his quote, President Trump performs his constitutional duties in an ethically constitutional duties in an ethically constitutional duties in an ethically sound manner, and to suggest so sound manner, and to suggest so sound manner, and to suggest so otherwise is either ill-informed or otherwise is either ill-informed or otherwise is either ill-informed or malicious.