Scientists still identifying 9/11 victims' remains | 60 Minutes Archives

>> It seems hard to remember when America >> It seems hard to remember when America was united. But recently we were was united. But recently we were was united. But recently we were reminded of such a time. The morning of reminded of such a time. The morning of reminded of such a time. The morning of September 11th, 2001 September 11th, 2001 September 11th, 2001 when all Americans pledged to persevere when all Americans pledged to persevere when all Americans pledged to persevere together. together. together. Nearly a quarter century ago, the New Nearly a quarter century ago, the New Nearly a quarter century ago, the New York City Office of the Chief Medical York City Office of the Chief Medical York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner made a promise to identify the Examiner made a promise to identify the Examiner made a promise to identify the remains of the lost souls of 9/11. remains of the lost souls of 9/11. remains of the lost souls of 9/11. Not many are aware, but that work has Not many are aware, but that work has Not many are aware, but that work has never stopped. never stopped. never stopped. Today, more than 1,000 families still Today, more than 1,000 families still Today, more than 1,000 families still wait for word. And you're about to meet wait for word. And you're about to meet wait for word. And you're about to meet two for whom the promise was kept. two for whom the promise was kept. two for whom the promise was kept. The most recent identification came this The most recent identification came this The most recent identification came this past December when Ellen Niven was past December when Ellen Niven was past December when Ellen Niven was decorating her Christmas tree. decorating her Christmas tree. decorating her Christmas tree. Two police officers came to her door Two police officers came to her door Two police officers came to her door with news of her husband, John, who had with news of her husband, John, who had with news of her husband, John, who had been missing been missing been missing 22 years. 22 years. 22 years. >> John was my husband. I met him when I >> John was my husband. I met him when I >> John was my husband. I met him when I was 24 years old and had moved to New was 24 years old and had moved to New was 24 years old and had moved to New York.

York. York. Incredible person, described by people Incredible person, described by people Incredible person, described by people who knew him as a real gentleman. who knew him as a real gentleman. who knew him as a real gentleman. Very old school, old soul. Very old school, old soul. Very old school, old soul. Wonderful father. Wonderful father. Wonderful father. Um Um Um very happy when we had our our young son very happy when we had our our young son very happy when we had our our young son and spent a lot of time with him. and spent a lot of time with him. and spent a lot of time with him. Uh Uh Uh great friend to a lot of a lot of great friend to a lot of a lot of great friend to a lot of a lot of people. people. people. >> John Niven was a 44-year-old insurance >> John Niven was a 44-year-old insurance >> John Niven was a 44-year-old insurance executive bound for his office on the executive bound for his office on the executive bound for his office on the 105th floor of the South Tower 105th floor of the South Tower 105th floor of the South Tower as the terrorist attack began. >> The first building was hit. >> The first building was hit. John was in the second building. John was in the second building. John was in the second building. >> The South Tower, yes. >> The South Tower, yes. >> The South Tower, yes. >> And he had an opportunity to call you. >> And he had an opportunity to call you. >> And he had an opportunity to call you. >> Yes, he said, >> Yes, he said, >> Yes, he said, "Hi, honey. It's me. "Hi, honey. It's me. "Hi, honey. It's me. Uh Uh Uh if you hear anything on the news, don't if you hear anything on the news, don't if you hear anything on the news, don't worry. I'm okay. It was the other worry. I'm okay. It was the other worry. I'm okay. It was the other building."

>> In the other building, a different >> In the other building, a different family tragedy was unfolding. family tragedy was unfolding. family tragedy was unfolding. 25-year-old Haberman, Andrea L, had just 25-year-old Haberman, Andrea L, had just 25-year-old Haberman, Andrea L, had just received a visitor pass on her first received a visitor pass on her first received a visitor pass on her first trip to her company's headquarters on trip to her company's headquarters on trip to her company's headquarters on the 92nd floor. the 92nd floor. the 92nd floor. Back home in Chicago, Andy, as her Back home in Chicago, Andy, as her Back home in Chicago, Andy, as her family called her, had just been fitted family called her, had just been fitted family called her, had just been fitted for her wedding dress. for her wedding dress. for her wedding dress. In Wisconsin, her mother, Kathy, was In Wisconsin, her mother, Kathy, was In Wisconsin, her mother, Kathy, was watching the news. watching the news. watching the news. >> I was shocked, and I ran upstairs to >> I was shocked, and I ran upstairs to >> I was shocked, and I ran upstairs to wake up Gordie to tell him. And then I wake up Gordie to tell him. And then I wake up Gordie to tell him. And then I came back downstairs just in time to see the second plane hit. to see the second plane hit. >> That was United Flight 175 >> That was United Flight 175 >> That was United Flight 175 as Gordon Haberman joined his wife. as Gordon Haberman joined his wife. as Gordon Haberman joined his wife. >> I threw a couple of ants on walls. I >> I threw a couple of ants on walls. I >> I threw a couple of ants on walls. I remember that. remember that. remember that. Thing is, we didn't know what tower she Thing is, we didn't know what tower she Thing is, we didn't know what tower she was in. was in. was in. We didn't know where she worked. We didn't know where she worked. We didn't know where she worked. >> The search for Andrea Haberman, John >> The search for Andrea Haberman, John >> The search for Andrea Haberman, John Niven, and nearly 3,000 others would Niven, and nearly 3,000 others would Niven, and nearly 3,000 others would become the passion of Dr. Charles become the passion of Dr. Charles become the passion of Dr. Charles Hirsch, the city's chief medical Hirsch, the city's chief medical Hirsch, the city's chief medical examiner.

examiner. examiner. He raced to the base of the burning He raced to the base of the burning He raced to the base of the burning towers with a team that included a young towers with a team that included a young towers with a team that included a young scientist named Mark Desire. scientist named Mark Desire. scientist named Mark Desire. >> Both towers were standing. They were on >> Both towers were standing. They were on >> Both towers were standing. They were on fire. fire. fire. Uh we parked our truck. We were to set Uh we parked our truck. We were to set Uh we parked our truck. We were to set up a temporary morgue and began to up a temporary morgue and began to up a temporary morgue and began to preserve the evidence. preserve the evidence. preserve the evidence. Wasn't down there very long. I had just Wasn't down there very long. I had just Wasn't down there very long. I had just received my orders from uh from Dr. received my orders from uh from Dr. received my orders from uh from Dr. Hirsch. I picked up our gearbox, and the Hirsch. I picked up our gearbox, and the Hirsch. I picked up our gearbox, and the South Tower cracked. It was It was right South Tower cracked. It was It was right South Tower cracked. It was It was right over us. That plume. over us. That plume. over us. That plume. I could see the steel and the fire I could see the steel and the fire I could see the steel and the fire coming down and I thought this is it. coming down and I thought this is it. coming down and I thought this is it. This is how I die. >> The South Tower with John Niven inside >> The South Tower with John Niven inside foundered after 56 minutes. As you're running away from the As you're running away from the collapsing South Tower, you were heading collapsing South Tower, you were heading collapsing South Tower, you were heading for a door in an adjacent building and for a door in an adjacent building and for a door in an adjacent building and then you got blasted off your feet. then you got blasted off your feet. then you got blasted off your feet. >> Yeah, just knocked me right out of my >> Yeah, just knocked me right out of my >> Yeah, just knocked me right out of my shoes. shoes. shoes. Never made it to the door, but it was Never made it to the door, but it was Never made it to the door, but it was enough to get me through through the enough to get me through through the enough to get me through through the partially through the window which partially through the window which partially through the window which really would save my life. If I was on really would save my life. If I was on really would save my life. If I was on the outside, everything that came down the outside, everything that came down the outside, everything that came down across my legs would have across my legs would have across my legs would have would taken me out.

would taken me out. would taken me out. >> The medical examiner's team survived. >> The medical examiner's team survived. >> The medical examiner's team survived. That's Mark Desire in the middle in the That's Mark Desire in the middle in the That's Mark Desire in the middle in the green shirt. green shirt. green shirt. The North Tower in the distance is The North Tower in the distance is The North Tower in the distance is minutes from collapse. Andrea Haberman minutes from collapse. Andrea Haberman minutes from collapse. Andrea Haberman is inside. is inside. is inside. Her parents, her sister Julie and fiance Her parents, her sister Julie and fiance Her parents, her sister Julie and fiance Al drove 16 hours to Manhattan Al drove 16 hours to Manhattan Al drove 16 hours to Manhattan where they picked up a list of where they picked up a list of where they picked up a list of hospitals. hospitals. hospitals. >> But with those lists of medical centers, >> But with those lists of medical centers, >> But with those lists of medical centers, Kathy and I split up Kathy and I split up Kathy and I split up and Julie and Al took the and Julie and Al took the and Julie and Al took the West side of Broadway and we took the West side of Broadway and we took the West side of Broadway and we took the East side. East side. East side. 32 different medical centers working our 32 different medical centers working our 32 different medical centers working our way down way down way down towards tip Manhattan and ground zero. towards tip Manhattan and ground zero. towards tip Manhattan and ground zero. Of course, the answers were Of course, the answers were Of course, the answers were >> No. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> No. No. For Andrea Haberman and thousands of No. For Andrea Haberman and thousands of No. For Andrea Haberman and thousands of others, others, others, Manhattan was papered in pleas for the Manhattan was papered in pleas for the Manhattan was papered in pleas for the missing missing missing and longing remained and longing remained and longing remained after hope had washed away.

after hope had washed away. after hope had washed away. >> Everybody has a flyer. Everybody >> Everybody has a flyer. Everybody >> Everybody has a flyer. Everybody is looking for their is looking for their is looking for their people. people. people. >> Families lined up at a National Guard >> Families lined up at a National Guard >> Families lined up at a National Guard Armory and waited hours to give DNA Armory and waited hours to give DNA Armory and waited hours to give DNA samples to the medical examiner. samples to the medical examiner. samples to the medical examiner. >> 17,000 17,000 reference samples, >> 17,000 17,000 reference samples, >> 17,000 17,000 reference samples, toothbrushes, razors, toothbrushes, razors, toothbrushes, razors, hairbrushes, anything that the hairbrushes, anything that the hairbrushes, anything that the the person touched when they were alive. the person touched when they were alive. the person touched when they were alive. If we couldn't get one of those samples, If we couldn't get one of those samples, If we couldn't get one of those samples, what living relatives do we have? Moms what living relatives do we have? Moms what living relatives do we have? Moms and dads, kids. and dads, kids. and dads, kids. >> There was DNA swab done of my young son >> There was DNA swab done of my young son >> There was DNA swab done of my young son Jack's cheek. You filled out Jack's cheek. You filled out Jack's cheek. You filled out descriptions. You gave photographs. descriptions. You gave photographs. descriptions. You gave photographs. Um you filled out many, many forms. Um you filled out many, many forms. Um you filled out many, many forms. >> They swabbed your son's cheek for DNA. >> They swabbed your son's cheek for DNA. >> They swabbed your son's cheek for DNA. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> How old was he? >> How old was he? >> How old was he? >> 18 months. >> His father was among those entombed in a >> His father was among those entombed in a mountain of misery.

Nearly 2 million tons of debris were Nearly 2 million tons of debris were searched by hand for human remains. After a year, they thought they had After a year, they thought they had found everything. found everything. found everything. But then, in 2006, But then, in 2006, But then, in 2006, there was a shocking revelation. there was a shocking revelation. there was a shocking revelation. Bone fragments on the roof of a building Bone fragments on the roof of a building Bone fragments on the roof of a building across the street from ground zero. across the street from ground zero. across the street from ground zero. The medical examiner sent anthropologist The medical examiner sent anthropologist The medical examiner sent anthropologist Bradley Adams. Bradley Adams. Bradley Adams. >> We ended up going through the whole >> We ended up going through the whole >> We ended up going through the whole rooftop and we found over 700 small bone rooftop and we found over 700 small bone rooftop and we found over 700 small bone fragments on that rooftop. And then we fragments on that rooftop. And then we fragments on that rooftop. And then we ended up, you know, obviously if there's ended up, you know, obviously if there's ended up, you know, obviously if there's remains there, we need to search other remains there, we need to search other remains there, we need to search other areas. So, we went through every floor areas. So, we went through every floor areas. So, we went through every floor of that building. of that building. of that building. Even to the point of having vacuum Even to the point of having vacuum Even to the point of having vacuum cleaners and vacuuming up dust and cleaners and vacuuming up dust and cleaners and vacuuming up dust and debris. debris. debris. >> The remains on the Deutsche Bank >> The remains on the Deutsche Bank >> The remains on the Deutsche Bank building were from American Airlines building were from American Airlines building were from American Airlines Flight 11. The discovery prompted a new Flight 11. The discovery prompted a new Flight 11. The discovery prompted a new search for clues at ground zero. search for clues at ground zero. search for clues at ground zero. >> computer floppy disks or golf balls or >> computer floppy disks or golf balls or >> computer floppy disks or golf balls or parts of office furniture that would be parts of office furniture that would be parts of office furniture that would be buried there. And if you're seeing that, buried there. And if you're seeing that, buried there. And if you're seeing that, then you know there's a potential there then you know there's a potential there then you know there's a potential there could be human remains mixed in with could be human remains mixed in with could be human remains mixed in with this World Trade Center debris.

this World Trade Center debris. this World Trade Center debris. >> Five years after the attack, >> Five years after the attack, >> Five years after the attack, Brad Adams began collecting 18,000 tons Brad Adams began collecting 18,000 tons Brad Adams began collecting 18,000 tons of excavation material of excavation material of excavation material over the course of a year. over the course of a year. over the course of a year. 75 75 75 anthropologists washed it through anthropologists washed it through anthropologists washed it through screens. screens. screens. >> How many human remains did you find in >> How many human remains did you find in >> How many human remains did you find in that project? that project? that project? >> There was the 700 on Deutsche Bank and >> There was the 700 on Deutsche Bank and >> There was the 700 on Deutsche Bank and then then then over a thousand more were found during over a thousand more were found during over a thousand more were found during the during the sifting operations. the during the sifting operations. the during the sifting operations. >> Altogether, the total World Trade Center >> Altogether, the total World Trade Center >> Altogether, the total World Trade Center remains came to 21,905. >> The recovery efforts have been >> The recovery efforts have been monumental and this was an unprecedented monumental and this was an unprecedented monumental and this was an unprecedented event, as you know, this is the greatest event, as you know, this is the greatest event, as you know, this is the greatest mass murder in the history of the United mass murder in the history of the United mass murder in the history of the United States. States. States. >> Today, Dr. Jason Graham is New York >> Today, Dr. Jason Graham is New York >> Today, Dr. Jason Graham is New York City's chief medical examiner. He City's chief medical examiner. He City's chief medical examiner. He inherited this promise made by his late inherited this promise made by his late inherited this promise made by his late predecessor, Charles Hirsch. predecessor, Charles Hirsch. predecessor, Charles Hirsch. >> As long as there are families who are >> As long as there are families who are >> As long as there are families who are continuing to seek answers, continuing to seek answers, continuing to seek answers, this work will continue.

this work will continue. this work will continue. >> What's the scope of what's left to be >> What's the scope of what's left to be >> What's the scope of what's left to be done? done? done? >> There were 2,753 >> There were 2,753 >> There were 2,753 victims, victims, victims, homicide victims. 60% of those homicide victims. 60% of those homicide victims. 60% of those individuals have been identified. 40% individuals have been identified. 40% individuals have been identified. 40% are left to be identified. are left to be identified. are left to be identified. >> 40% comes to 1,103 >> 40% comes to 1,103 >> 40% comes to 1,103 victims with no identified remains. victims with no identified remains. victims with no identified remains. >> So, these are the steps from once >> So, these are the steps from once >> So, these are the steps from once remains are received. remains are received. remains are received. >> Putting a name to those remains is the >> Putting a name to those remains is the >> Putting a name to those remains is the job of the last original member of the job of the last original member of the job of the last original member of the medical examiner's 9/11 team, Mark medical examiner's 9/11 team, Mark medical examiner's 9/11 team, Mark Desire, now assistant director of Desire, now assistant director of Desire, now assistant director of forensic biology. forensic biology. forensic biology. >> These remains went through every >> These remains went through every >> These remains went through every possible thing that could destroy DNA. possible thing that could destroy DNA. possible thing that could destroy DNA. From jet fuel to diesel fuel, mold, From jet fuel to diesel fuel, mold, From jet fuel to diesel fuel, mold, bacteria, sunlight, all kinds of bacteria, sunlight, all kinds of bacteria, sunlight, all kinds of chemicals that were in the building, chemicals that were in the building, chemicals that were in the building, insects, heat, fire. All these things insects, heat, fire. All these things insects, heat, fire. All these things destroy DNA. Everything was present at destroy DNA. Everything was present at destroy DNA. Everything was present at ground zero, making this not only the ground zero, making this not only the ground zero, making this not only the largest forensic investigation in largest forensic investigation in largest forensic investigation in history of the United States, but the history of the United States, but the history of the United States, but the most difficult.

most difficult. most difficult. >> Some of these World Trade Center remains >> Some of these World Trade Center remains >> Some of these World Trade Center remains have been tested how many times? have been tested how many times? have been tested how many times? >> 10, 15 times, yeah. >> 10, 15 times, yeah. >> 10, 15 times, yeah. >> Without a result? >> Without a result? >> Without a result? >> Without a result. But if there's DNA, >> Without a result. But if there's DNA, >> Without a result. But if there's DNA, we're going to find it. We're going to we're going to find it. We're going to we're going to find it. We're going to find it. We're going to generate a find it. We're going to generate a find it. We're going to generate a profile. May take us a while. >> All remains today are bone. >> All remains today are bone. In a demonstration with animal bone, In a demonstration with animal bone, In a demonstration with animal bone, Desire showed us new technologies that Desire showed us new technologies that Desire showed us new technologies that make breakthroughs possible. They make breakthroughs possible. They make breakthroughs possible. They include this cryogenic grinder, include this cryogenic grinder, include this cryogenic grinder, filled with liquid nitrogen at 320° filled with liquid nitrogen at 320° filled with liquid nitrogen at 320° below zero. below zero. below zero. >> The early days of 9/11, 2001, we were >> The early days of 9/11, 2001, we were >> The early days of 9/11, 2001, we were doing this all by hand with a mortar and doing this all by hand with a mortar and doing this all by hand with a mortar and pestle. pestle. pestle. >> With high-speed vibration, individual >> With high-speed vibration, individual >> With high-speed vibration, individual cells in the deeply frozen bone shatter. cells in the deeply frozen bone shatter. cells in the deeply frozen bone shatter. A chemical process releases their DNA. A chemical process releases their DNA. A chemical process releases their DNA. >> Equipment like this has taken it to the >> Equipment like this has taken it to the >> Equipment like this has taken it to the next level, giving us so much more next level, giving us so much more next level, giving us so much more access to cell. We need as much DNA as access to cell. We need as much DNA as access to cell. We need as much DNA as possible because these samples have possible because these samples have possible because these samples have hardly any.

hardly any. hardly any. >> Other innovations chemically amplify >> Other innovations chemically amplify >> Other innovations chemically amplify DNA, revealing more information from the DNA, revealing more information from the DNA, revealing more information from the smallest fragment. smallest fragment. smallest fragment. >> Uh some as small as the size of a Tic >> Uh some as small as the size of a Tic >> Uh some as small as the size of a Tic Tac, we've been able to get DNA from Tac, we've been able to get DNA from Tac, we've been able to get DNA from those and generate a a DNA profile. those and generate a a DNA profile. those and generate a a DNA profile. >> Samples are tested every week with >> Samples are tested every week with >> Samples are tested every week with advanced technology. advanced technology. advanced technology. John Nivens bone fragments, 15 in all, John Nivens bone fragments, 15 in all, John Nivens bone fragments, 15 in all, had been tested for years. Then, last had been tested for years. Then, last had been tested for years. Then, last year, the lab made a perfect match to year, the lab made a perfect match to year, the lab made a perfect match to the swab of the cheek of his infant son the swab of the cheek of his infant son the swab of the cheek of his infant son taken 22 years before. taken 22 years before. taken 22 years before. First notifications First notifications First notifications are made in person. are made in person. are made in person. >> And the police came to the door, and my >> And the police came to the door, and my >> And the police came to the door, and my first reaction was I said, "Is Is it my first reaction was I said, "Is Is it my first reaction was I said, "Is Is it my son?" And they said, "No, everything's son?" And they said, "No, everything's son?" And they said, "No, everything's okay." [clears throat] okay." [clears throat] okay." [clears throat] And these two And these two And these two wonderful, really kind policemen said, wonderful, really kind policemen said, wonderful, really kind policemen said, "We're here to deliver you the news." "We're here to deliver you the news." "We're here to deliver you the news." And they had a letter that um And they had a letter that um And they had a letter that um "Your husband's DNA has been "Your husband's DNA has been "Your husband's DNA has been discovered."

discovered." discovered." >> When the police officer said, "We found >> When the police officer said, "We found >> When the police officer said, "We found your husband's DNA," I mean, that must your husband's DNA," I mean, that must your husband's DNA," I mean, that must have hit you as quite a shock. have hit you as quite a shock. have hit you as quite a shock. >> It was a shock that they'd been looking >> It was a shock that they'd been looking >> It was a shock that they'd been looking all these all these 22 years. I thought all these all these 22 years. I thought all these all these 22 years. I thought that that that that that that door had long been closed. door had long been closed. door had long been closed. >> About half of 9/11 families had told the >> About half of 9/11 families had told the >> About half of 9/11 families had told the medical examiner that if their loved one medical examiner that if their loved one medical examiner that if their loved one is identified today, is identified today, is identified today, they don't want to know. they don't want to know. they don't want to know. Time has lightened their burden of Time has lightened their burden of Time has lightened their burden of grief. grief. grief. But the other half still hope for word. But the other half still hope for word. But the other half still hope for word. Few understand this mix of emotions like Few understand this mix of emotions like Few understand this mix of emotions like Dr. Jennifer Odien. She's the medical Dr. Jennifer Odien. She's the medical Dr. Jennifer Odien. She's the medical examiner's World Trade Center examiner's World Trade Center examiner's World Trade Center anthropologist, a scientist, and anthropologist, a scientist, and anthropologist, a scientist, and something of a counselor to those still something of a counselor to those still something of a counselor to those still hoping for the promise. hoping for the promise. hoping for the promise. >> Shock, I would say is the first response >> Shock, I would say is the first response >> Shock, I would say is the first response uh typically, just because of how many uh typically, just because of how many uh typically, just because of how many years have gone by. They weren't years have gone by. They weren't years have gone by. They weren't necessarily expecting to get that that necessarily expecting to get that that necessarily expecting to get that that new identification, any identification new identification, any identification new identification, any identification for some families. They They weren't for some families. They They weren't for some families. They They weren't expecting it. And then after that, it expecting it. And then after that, it expecting it. And then after that, it tends to be tends to be tends to be emotional, you know, some grief because emotional, you know, some grief because emotional, you know, some grief because all now all the memories, everything is all now all the memories, everything is all now all the memories, everything is coming up coming up coming up um about that.

um about that. um about that. >> Can you give me a sense of how many >> Can you give me a sense of how many >> Can you give me a sense of how many families you're in touch with? families you're in touch with? families you're in touch with? >> Hundreds. >> Hundreds. >> Hundreds. >> Hundreds? >> Hundreds? >> Hundreds? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What memories >> What memories >> What memories have some of these families shared with have some of these families shared with have some of these families shared with you? you? you? >> Some of the memories are, >> Some of the memories are, >> Some of the memories are, that last phone call that they received, that last phone call that they received, that last phone call that they received, or the last birthday they had, or, you or the last birthday they had, or, you or the last birthday they had, or, you know, a vacation, but a lot of it has to know, a vacation, but a lot of it has to know, a vacation, but a lot of it has to do with that that last contact, whether do with that that last contact, whether do with that that last contact, whether it was in the morning before they went it was in the morning before they went it was in the morning before they went off to work, or if they had called while off to work, or if they had called while off to work, or if they had called while they were in towers. they were in towers. they were in towers. >> A vital part of your job >> A vital part of your job >> A vital part of your job is to listen. is to listen. is to listen. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And I will listen as long as they would And I will listen as long as they would And I will listen as long as they would like me to. Um, we have phone calls like me to. Um, we have phone calls like me to. Um, we have phone calls sometimes, and it'll last an hour, and I sometimes, and it'll last an hour, and I sometimes, and it'll last an hour, and I will stay on and listen and talk uh to will stay on and listen and talk uh to will stay on and listen and talk uh to them. When they have a question, I'll them. When they have a question, I'll them. When they have a question, I'll answer it, but a lot of times they just answer it, but a lot of times they just answer it, but a lot of times they just want to want to speak to someone. want to want to speak to someone. want to want to speak to someone. >> I talked to Dr. Odian, Jen, who was >> I talked to Dr. Odian, Jen, who was >> I talked to Dr. Odian, Jen, who was wonderful and so kind and so nice. wonderful and so kind and so nice. wonderful and so kind and so nice. >> Ellen Niven spoke to Jennifer Odian this >> Ellen Niven spoke to Jennifer Odian this >> Ellen Niven spoke to Jennifer Odian this past December, when the remains of her past December, when the remains of her past December, when the remains of her husband, John, were identified for the husband, John, were identified for the husband, John, were identified for the first time.

first time. first time. >> So, I heard nothing about John's remains >> So, I heard nothing about John's remains >> So, I heard nothing about John's remains for 22 years. for 22 years. for 22 years. So, we just assumed that, um, So, we just assumed that, um, So, we just assumed that, um, there was nothing. there was nothing. there was nothing. We We We buried a box of mementos, buried a box of mementos, buried a box of mementos, photographs and a letter uh that I photographs and a letter uh that I photographs and a letter uh that I wrote, and a wrote, and a wrote, and a drawing my son had done, and and then drawing my son had done, and and then drawing my son had done, and and then nothing. nothing. nothing. >> She remarried and had two more boys. >> She remarried and had two more boys. >> She remarried and had two more boys. Her son, Jack, was 18 months old when Her son, Jack, was 18 months old when Her son, Jack, was 18 months old when his father died. Now, aged 24, Jack let his father died. Now, aged 24, Jack let his father died. Now, aged 24, Jack let his mother tell the story of how his his mother tell the story of how his his mother tell the story of how his father's identification struck them father's identification struck them father's identification struck them differently. differently. differently. >> For me, it was very sad. For him, it was >> For me, it was very sad. For him, it was >> For me, it was very sad. For him, it was uplifting in a way to realize that uplifting in a way to realize that uplifting in a way to realize that people had been working all that time to people had been working all that time to people had been working all that time to find any piece of his dad, and that of find any piece of his dad, and that of find any piece of his dad, and that of all the people that all the people that all the people that were blessed by this breakthrough, that were blessed by this breakthrough, that were blessed by this breakthrough, that it was his dad. it was his dad. it was his dad. You know, and that meant so much to him.

You know, and that meant so much to him. You know, and that meant so much to him. So, it was really moving to see how So, it was really moving to see how So, it was really moving to see how moved he was. moved he was. moved he was. So many people who had met John, or had So many people who had met John, or had So many people who had met John, or had even not met John, even not met John, even not met John, reached out to us. Emails, letters, reached out to us. Emails, letters, reached out to us. Emails, letters, phone calls to me and to Jack. And I phone calls to me and to Jack. And I phone calls to me and to Jack. And I think that for Jack, it really brought think that for Jack, it really brought think that for Jack, it really brought to life so many descriptions of his to life so many descriptions of his to life so many descriptions of his father that as a young man, he could now father that as a young man, he could now father that as a young man, he could now really appreciate. really appreciate. really appreciate. So, it was a great remembrance of John So, it was a great remembrance of John So, it was a great remembrance of John being able to be back in a lot of being able to be back in a lot of being able to be back in a lot of people's minds. people's minds. people's minds. >> As remains are identified, the folders >> As remains are identified, the folders >> As remains are identified, the folders get bigger and bigger because we keep get bigger and bigger because we keep get bigger and bigger because we keep adding all the information for those adding all the information for those adding all the information for those remains. remains. remains. >> Jennifer Odien adds new identifications >> Jennifer Odien adds new identifications >> Jennifer Odien adds new identifications to the DM files. No one knew what to to the DM files. No one knew what to to the DM files. No one knew what to call 9/11 the day it happened, so the ME call 9/11 the day it happened, so the ME call 9/11 the day it happened, so the ME settled on Disaster Manhattan. settled on Disaster Manhattan. settled on Disaster Manhattan. There's one folder for each murder There's one folder for each murder There's one folder for each murder victim. victim. victim. 2,753.

This is an inventory of all of the This is an inventory of all of the remains found for this one person. remains found for this one person. remains found for this one person. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Such things here as rib, >> Such things here as rib, >> Such things here as rib, vertebra, vertebra, vertebra, sternum, found over months and years. sternum, found over months and years. sternum, found over months and years. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> This indicates that about 50% of this >> This indicates that about 50% of this >> This indicates that about 50% of this body was recovered. body was recovered. body was recovered. >> Roughly, yes. And it's a very rough >> Roughly, yes. And it's a very rough >> Roughly, yes. And it's a very rough estimate. We're trying to understand how estimate. We're trying to understand how estimate. We're trying to understand how many of the remains have been many of the remains have been many of the remains have been identified, how much of that individual identified, how much of that individual identified, how much of that individual is there. What are the chances that more is there. What are the chances that more is there. What are the chances that more remains will be identified? Uh cuz those remains will be identified? Uh cuz those remains will be identified? Uh cuz those are questions that families will ask. are questions that families will ask. are questions that families will ask. >> Families have a choice. They can ask a >> Families have a choice. They can ask a >> Families have a choice. They can ask a funeral home to pick up a remain, vacuum funeral home to pick up a remain, vacuum funeral home to pick up a remain, vacuum packed like this, labeled with an packed like this, labeled with an packed like this, labeled with an American flag, or they can leave the American flag, or they can leave the American flag, or they can leave the remain in the custody of the medical remain in the custody of the medical remain in the custody of the medical examiner. examiner. examiner. >> I tell them that they don't have to make >> I tell them that they don't have to make >> I tell them that they don't have to make that decision right now. They can call that decision right now. They can call that decision right now. They can call back in a month, a year, two years, 10 back in a month, a year, two years, 10 back in a month, a year, two years, 10 years, and we could then have those years, and we could then have those years, and we could then have those remains transferred over to the funeral remains transferred over to the funeral remains transferred over to the funeral home that they choose. home that they choose. home that they choose. >> You are keeping track of the remains >> You are keeping track of the remains >> You are keeping track of the remains that precisely. that precisely. that precisely. >> Oh, absolutely. We know where every >> Oh, absolutely. We know where every >> Oh, absolutely. We know where every single remain is.

single remain is. single remain is. >> How do you do that? >> How do you do that? >> How do you do that? >> We have numbers associated with all >> We have numbers associated with all >> We have numbers associated with all remains. So, every remain that was remains. So, every remain that was remains. So, every remain that was recovered has a specific unique number recovered has a specific unique number recovered has a specific unique number associated with it. associated with it. associated with it. >> Number 18,756 is the most recent remain of Andrea is the most recent remain of Andrea Haberman. Haberman. Haberman. >> Oh, Andrea. >> Oh, Andrea. >> Oh, Andrea. >> The Habermans have asked to be told of >> The Habermans have asked to be told of >> The Habermans have asked to be told of all new identifications. all new identifications. all new identifications. For them, each reminder of their For them, each reminder of their For them, each reminder of their daughter is a stepping stone through a daughter is a stepping stone through a daughter is a stepping stone through a void void void >> Isn't that beautiful? >> Isn't that beautiful? >> Isn't that beautiful? >> that Gordon Haberman calls >> that Gordon Haberman calls >> that Gordon Haberman calls missing. missing. missing. >> It's hard to describe missing. >> It's hard to describe missing. >> It's hard to describe missing. They're people, but it's They're people, but it's They're people, but it's it's deep inside you. it's deep inside you. it's deep inside you. There isn't a day that I or we There isn't a day that I or we There isn't a day that I or we don't think of her. don't think of her. don't think of her. >> Help me understand what it means to you >> Help me understand what it means to you >> Help me understand what it means to you to have had Andrea's remains identified. to have had Andrea's remains identified. to have had Andrea's remains identified. >> If Andrea >> If Andrea >> If Andrea could face what she had to face, could face what she had to face, could face what she had to face, how could I not how could I not how could I not want to know what happened to her?

want to know what happened to her? want to know what happened to her? >> Today, he's 73. >> Today, he's 73. >> Today, he's 73. His relationship with the medical His relationship with the medical His relationship with the medical examiner has spanned 11 notifications, examiner has spanned 11 notifications, examiner has spanned 11 notifications, plus plus plus the amazing discovery of the relics of the amazing discovery of the relics of the amazing discovery of the relics of Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. >> When you went through these things for >> When you went through these things for >> When you went through these things for the first time, the first time, the first time, what did you see? What did you think? >> We met Gordon Haberman at the National >> We met Gordon Haberman at the National September 11th Memorial Museum at Ground September 11th Memorial Museum at Ground September 11th Memorial Museum at Ground Zero. Zero. Zero. With the help of the museum staff, we With the help of the museum staff, we With the help of the museum staff, we saw artifacts from Andrea's purse, which saw artifacts from Andrea's purse, which saw artifacts from Andrea's purse, which are archived, cataloged, and handled are archived, cataloged, and handled are archived, cataloged, and handled like antiquities. like antiquities. like antiquities. He received them in 2004 from the NYPD He received them in 2004 from the NYPD He received them in 2004 from the NYPD in a meeting with officers and a priest. in a meeting with officers and a priest. in a meeting with officers and a priest. >> They wanted to know if I needed any any >> They wanted to know if I needed any any >> They wanted to know if I needed any any help processing that and I was actually I was actually more concerned at that time how I was more concerned at that time how I was more concerned at that time how I was going to keep this from my wife.

going to keep this from my wife. going to keep this from my wife. >> He feared his wife's pain, so he locked >> He feared his wife's pain, so he locked >> He feared his wife's pain, so he locked the bag in a desk drawer, which he did the bag in a desk drawer, which he did the bag in a desk drawer, which he did not open for 7 years. not open for 7 years. not open for 7 years. In 2011, they donated to the museum the In 2011, they donated to the museum the In 2011, they donated to the museum the collection of a quarter century ago. collection of a quarter century ago. collection of a quarter century ago. >> This is the phone that we kept calling. >> This is the phone that we kept calling. >> This is the phone that we kept calling. >> Her flip phone. >> Her flip phone. >> Her flip phone. >> It didn't work. >> It didn't work. >> It didn't work. >> A pager, >> A pager, >> A pager, driver's license, driver's license, driver's license, and the last photo of her life. and the last photo of her life. and the last photo of her life. The visitor ID that captured Andrea's The visitor ID that captured Andrea's The visitor ID that captured Andrea's spirit spirit spirit minutes before she was gone. minutes before she was gone. minutes before she was gone. >> That's was our Andrea. >> That's was our Andrea. >> That's was our Andrea. And she was going to go on to do great And she was going to go on to do great And she was going to go on to do great things and she wanted grandchildren. Her things and she wanted grandchildren. Her things and she wanted grandchildren. Her house was such a pride. She loved her house was such a pride. She loved her house was such a pride. She loved her house so much. house so much. house so much. >> You can see it in her smile. >> You can see it in her smile. >> You can see it in her smile. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You can see it in her face. >> You can see it in her face. >> You can see it in her face. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> He brought Andrea's identified remains >> He brought Andrea's identified remains >> He brought Andrea's identified remains home to Wisconsin, but he believes her home to Wisconsin, but he believes her home to Wisconsin, but he believes her other remains, still unidentified, are other remains, still unidentified, are other remains, still unidentified, are in the museum behind this wall and a in the museum behind this wall and a in the museum behind this wall and a verse by the poet Virgil.

verse by the poet Virgil. verse by the poet Virgil. No day shall erase you from the memory No day shall erase you from the memory No day shall erase you from the memory of time. of time. of time. Many museum visitors don't realize, but Many museum visitors don't realize, but Many museum visitors don't realize, but this is the outer wall of the medical this is the outer wall of the medical this is the outer wall of the medical examiner's repository for 9/11 remains. examiner's repository for 9/11 remains. examiner's repository for 9/11 remains. We're in what was the basement of the We're in what was the basement of the We're in what was the basement of the North Tower. North Tower. North Tower. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And this is completely out of the path >> And this is completely out of the path >> And this is completely out of the path of the museum. It's hidden around the of the museum. It's hidden around the of the museum. It's hidden around the corner. corner. corner. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Next to the repository, this is the >> Next to the repository, this is the >> Next to the repository, this is the entrance to the office of the chief entrance to the office of the chief entrance to the office of the chief medical examiner family reflection room. medical examiner family reflection room. medical examiner family reflection room. The room and repository have never been The room and repository have never been The room and repository have never been seen by the public. Families only can seen by the public. Families only can seen by the public. Families only can call a number on the door, which summons call a number on the door, which summons call a number on the door, which summons an escort, often Dr. Jennifer Odien. an escort, often Dr. Jennifer Odien. an escort, often Dr. Jennifer Odien. >> So, the visits are different every time. >> So, the visits are different every time. >> So, the visits are different every time. Some families are very emotional and Some families are very emotional and Some families are very emotional and I'll sit in with them for an hour and I'll sit in with them for an hour and I'll sit in with them for an hour and just hear stories. just hear stories. just hear stories. And I'll walk around with them And I'll walk around with them And I'll walk around with them until I know that they're okay and then until I know that they're okay and then until I know that they're okay and then I leave the room completely so they have I leave the room completely so they have I leave the room completely so they have the space to themselves.

the space to themselves. the space to themselves. >> This must be a burden to you. >> This must be a burden to you. >> This must be a burden to you. >> I don't consider it a burden. It's It's >> I don't consider it a burden. It's It's >> I don't consider it a burden. It's It's tough. tough. tough. I definitely have moments of, you know, I definitely have moments of, you know, I definitely have moments of, you know, feeling very emotional and needing to feeling very emotional and needing to feeling very emotional and needing to step back, but when I talk to a family step back, but when I talk to a family step back, but when I talk to a family and they say thank you, how grateful and they say thank you, how grateful and they say thank you, how grateful they are that we're with our continued they are that we're with our continued they are that we're with our continued work, that I a question I've answered work, that I a question I've answered work, that I a question I've answered helped them in some way, it makes it all helped them in some way, it makes it all helped them in some way, it makes it all worth it. worth it. worth it. >> Gordon Haberman invited us inside as his >> Gordon Haberman invited us inside as his >> Gordon Haberman invited us inside as his guest. No camera, but we were allowed to guest. No camera, but we were allowed to guest. No camera, but we were allowed to record the audio. record the audio. record the audio. We found a small sitting room and a We found a small sitting room and a We found a small sitting room and a window into the repository for human window into the repository for human window into the repository for human remains. remains. remains. The window we're looking through looks The window we're looking through looks The window we're looking through looks like it's about 5 ft wide and 3 ft or so like it's about 5 ft wide and 3 ft or so like it's about 5 ft wide and 3 ft or so tall. Just a single window and a single tall. Just a single window and a single tall. Just a single window and a single wooden bench in front of the window. wooden bench in front of the window. wooden bench in front of the window. >> With permission, we gave our notes to an >> With permission, we gave our notes to an >> With permission, we gave our notes to an artist who sketched the view through the artist who sketched the view through the artist who sketched the view through the window that joins the family room to the window that joins the family room to the window that joins the family room to the repository.

repository. repository. A loved one sitting on the bench sees a A loved one sitting on the bench sees a A loved one sitting on the bench sees a deep, austere, white room with rows of deep, austere, white room with rows of deep, austere, white room with rows of dark wooden cabinets 8-ft tall. dark wooden cabinets 8-ft tall. dark wooden cabinets 8-ft tall. They hold about 10,000 remains, both They hold about 10,000 remains, both They hold about 10,000 remains, both known and unknown. known and unknown. known and unknown. It is, in a sense, It is, in a sense, It is, in a sense, a private national shrine. a private national shrine. a private national shrine. >> After you. >> After you. >> After you. Why do you come here Why do you come here Why do you come here after all these years? after all these years? after all these years? >> I feel close to my daughter. >> I feel close to my daughter. >> I feel close to my daughter. She wasn't meant to be here, but she's She wasn't meant to be here, but she's She wasn't meant to be here, but she's here. >> The repository in the museum, which >> The repository in the museum, which stands between the reflecting pools, stands between the reflecting pools, stands between the reflecting pools, seems like the right place, Ellen Niven seems like the right place, Ellen Niven seems like the right place, Ellen Niven told us, told us, told us, for her husband, John. for her husband, John. for her husband, John. >> Have you been here often? >> Have you been here often? >> Have you been here often? >> I have been here often. >> I have been here often. >> I have been here often. >> She has visited the pools over the >> She has visited the pools over the >> She has visited the pools over the decades to run her fingertips over her decades to run her fingertips over her decades to run her fingertips over her lost husband's tribute. lost husband's tribute. lost husband's tribute. And yet, And yet, And yet, she is surprised she is surprised she is surprised how the endless effort to actually find how the endless effort to actually find how the endless effort to actually find him him him allowed her to feel once again allowed her to feel once again allowed her to feel once again the embrace of a nation's devotion.

the embrace of a nation's devotion. the embrace of a nation's devotion. >> My first reaction was to tell people, >> My first reaction was to tell people, >> My first reaction was to tell people, "Did you know that all this time "Did you know that all this time "Did you know that all this time they have been sifting through these they have been sifting through these they have been sifting through these remains and researching and researching remains and researching and researching remains and researching and researching for for over 20 years? for for over 20 years? for for over 20 years? What an incredible thing, What an incredible thing, What an incredible thing, you know, you know, you know, John had another moment John had another moment John had another moment in in all of our lives. in in all of our lives. in in all of our lives. So, that was something I'm incredibly So, that was something I'm incredibly So, that was something I'm incredibly grateful for.