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If you are going to cruise the If you are going to cruise the information superighway like 30 million information superighway like 30 million information superighway like 30 million Americans are doing right now, you'd Americans are doing right now, you'd Americans are doing right now, you'd better be aware that cruising alongside better be aware that cruising alongside better be aware that cruising alongside you are intruders, hackers who can break you are intruders, hackers who can break you are intruders, hackers who can break into your computer and far it out your into your computer and far it out your into your computer and far it out your credit records, your medical records, credit records, your medical records, credit records, your medical records, just about everything private that you just about everything private that you just about everything private that you wouldn't want to share with a stranger. wouldn't want to share with a stranger. wouldn't want to share with a stranger. Well, beyond that, they can also break Well, beyond that, they can also break Well, beyond that, they can also break into just about any corporation's into just about any corporation's into just about any corporation's computers and find out their most computers and find out their most computers and find out their most closely guarded business strategies and closely guarded business strategies and closely guarded business strategies and secrets. The busiest road on the secrets. The busiest road on the secrets. The busiest road on the information superighway is called the information superighway is called the information superighway is called the internet. A worldwide linkup of internet. A worldwide linkup of internet. A worldwide linkup of computers that belong to corporations, computers that belong to corporations, computers that belong to corporations, government agencies, universities, and government agencies, universities, and government agencies, universities, and folks like you and me. And just like us, folks like you and me. And just like us, folks like you and me. And just like us, their computers, too, are being ripped their computers, too, are being ripped their computers, too, are being ripped off by the hackers. either off by the hackers. either off by the hackers. either >> Alan Bril heads up the worldwide >> Alan Bril heads up the worldwide >> Alan Bril heads up the worldwide high-tech security endeavors of Croll high-tech security endeavors of Croll high-tech security endeavors of Croll Associates in New York. Associates in New York. Associates in New York. >> Everybody's telling you how great it is >> Everybody's telling you how great it is >> Everybody's telling you how great it is to get your company on the information to get your company on the information to get your company on the information superighway, superighway, superighway, >> but they don't tell you that on this >> but they don't tell you that on this >> but they don't tell you that on this super highway there carjackings, there's super highway there carjackings, there's super highway there carjackings, there's driveby shootings, and some of the rest driveby shootings, and some of the rest driveby shootings, and some of the rest stops are pretty dangerous places to stops are pretty dangerous places to stops are pretty dangerous places to hang around.

hang around. hang around. Until companies understand that, they're Until companies understand that, they're Until companies understand that, they're putting themselves at risk. Over the putting themselves at risk. Over the putting themselves at risk. Over the past few months, using the internet, past few months, using the internet, past few months, using the internet, hackers have managed to penetrate the hackers have managed to penetrate the hackers have managed to penetrate the computer files of scores of top US computer files of scores of top US computer files of scores of top US corporations, reading all kinds of corporations, reading all kinds of corporations, reading all kinds of sensitive, strategic, highly sensitive, strategic, highly sensitive, strategic, highly confidential information. They've even confidential information. They've even confidential information. They've even managed to penetrate the US National managed to penetrate the US National managed to penetrate the US National Weather Service. And if it weren't for Weather Service. And if it weren't for Weather Service. And if it weren't for the service's backup system, the results the service's backup system, the results the service's backup system, the results of that penetration could have been of that penetration could have been of that penetration could have been disastrous. disastrous. disastrous. >> They were very close to the point where >> They were very close to the point where >> They were very close to the point where they could have shut down or damaged the they could have shut down or damaged the they could have shut down or damaged the computer systems. computer systems. computer systems. If that had happened, no pilot would be If that had happened, no pilot would be If that had happened, no pilot would be able to get a weather forecast for his able to get a weather forecast for his able to get a weather forecast for his airplane. Commercial aviation probably airplane. Commercial aviation probably airplane. Commercial aviation probably would have ground to a halt. Who are would have ground to a halt. Who are would have ground to a halt. Who are these hackers surfing the internet? Most these hackers surfing the internet? Most these hackers surfing the internet? Most of them are children of the computer of them are children of the computer of them are children of the computer age, obsessed by the mysteries of age, obsessed by the mysteries of age, obsessed by the mysteries of cyberspace. like these young people, cyberspace. like these young people, cyberspace. like these young people, most of them hackers, who gather once a most of them hackers, who gather once a most of them hackers, who gather once a month in a mall of the City Corp month in a mall of the City Corp month in a mall of the City Corp building in New York, to exchange news building in New York, to exchange news building in New York, to exchange news of such things as the internet, their of such things as the internet, their of such things as the internet, their latest penetrations, or the best latest penetrations, or the best latest penetrations, or the best techniques for future breakins.

techniques for future breakins. techniques for future breakins. The hackers even have their own The hackers even have their own The hackers even have their own magazine, its publisher, Emanuel magazine, its publisher, Emanuel magazine, its publisher, Emanuel Goldstein. He insists that what the Goldstein. He insists that what the Goldstein. He insists that what the hackers do is harmless. In fact, he even hackers do is harmless. In fact, he even hackers do is harmless. In fact, he even uses his magazine to put out the word on uses his magazine to put out the word on uses his magazine to put out the word on future tempting computer targets. future tempting computer targets. future tempting computer targets. >> If we learn a secret, we spread it >> If we learn a secret, we spread it >> If we learn a secret, we spread it around. What do you mean by a secret? around. What do you mean by a secret? around. What do you mean by a secret? >> Um, say there's some sort of a a wide >> Um, say there's some sort of a a wide >> Um, say there's some sort of a a wide open hole in a particular computer open hole in a particular computer open hole in a particular computer operating system. We'll tell people what operating system. We'll tell people what operating system. We'll tell people what it is. Well, we find that 99.9% of it is. Well, we find that 99.9% of it is. Well, we find that 99.9% of hackers are not destructive in any way. hackers are not destructive in any way. hackers are not destructive in any way. They're curious. They want to find out They're curious. They want to find out They're curious. They want to find out things. They things. They things. They >> curious about what? Give me an example. >> curious about what? Give me an example. >> curious about what? Give me an example. >> Okay. Curious about how a huge computer >> Okay. Curious about how a huge computer >> Okay. Curious about how a huge computer system operates. They want to go in and system operates. They want to go in and system operates. They want to go in and get their hands dirty and see what get their hands dirty and see what get their hands dirty and see what exactly is going on. But they do it in exactly is going on. But they do it in exactly is going on. But they do it in such a way that they don't hurt things. such a way that they don't hurt things. such a way that they don't hurt things. But it's none of your business. But it's none of your business. But it's none of your business. >> Well, that's that's easy to say, but >> Well, that's that's easy to say, but >> Well, that's that's easy to say, but it's very hard to quell curiosity. it's very hard to quell curiosity. it's very hard to quell curiosity. >> How do the hackers break into a computer >> How do the hackers break into a computer >> How do the hackers break into a computer on the internet? One of the easiest ways on the internet? One of the easiest ways on the internet? One of the easiest ways is by getting hold of the passwords that is by getting hold of the passwords that is by getting hold of the passwords that companies use, ostensibly to protect companies use, ostensibly to protect companies use, ostensibly to protect their computer files. But to demonstrate their computer files. But to demonstrate their computer files. But to demonstrate just how easy it is to uncover a just how easy it is to uncover a just how easy it is to uncover a password and break in, Alan Brill writes password and break in, Alan Brill writes password and break in, Alan Brill writes a brief message of his own. This is a a brief message of his own. This is a a brief message of his own. This is a corporate secret corporate secret corporate secret >> and I don't want anybody to see that >> and I don't want anybody to see that >> and I don't want anybody to see that message. right message. right message. right >> now. If I try to get that document >> now. If I try to get that document >> now. If I try to get that document >> and if I don't know your password, >> and if I don't know your password, >> and if I don't know your password, file is locked. Not very good.

file is locked. Not very good. file is locked. Not very good. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> There are programs that were developed >> There are programs that were developed >> There are programs that were developed for law enforcement for law enforcement for law enforcement >> that unfortunately have kind of gotten >> that unfortunately have kind of gotten >> that unfortunately have kind of gotten out there. Guess where? On the internet. out there. Guess where? On the internet. out there. Guess where? On the internet. >> That program can pick out secret >> That program can pick out secret >> That program can pick out secret passwords because when analyzed passwords because when analyzed passwords because when analyzed electronically, they stand out from the electronically, they stand out from the electronically, they stand out from the rest of the words in a file. Alan Bril rest of the words in a file. Alan Bril rest of the words in a file. Alan Bril was able to find my secret password was able to find my secret password was able to find my secret password within just seconds. within just seconds. within just seconds. >> The machine believes that your password >> The machine believes that your password >> The machine believes that your password was Zena. was Zena. was Zena. >> There it is. With that password, I can >> There it is. With that password, I can >> There it is. With that password, I can get in and I can be you. get in and I can be you. get in and I can be you. >> Which means he'd have access to all the >> Which means he'd have access to all the >> Which means he'd have access to all the files in my computer. That's the kind of files in my computer. That's the kind of files in my computer. That's the kind of technique employed by this young man. technique employed by this young man. technique employed by this young man. John Lee began running with a street John Lee began running with a street John Lee began running with a street gang in Brooklyn's Bedford Styverson gang in Brooklyn's Bedford Styverson gang in Brooklyn's Bedford Styverson section. But when he was just about 12 section. But when he was just about 12 section. But when he was just about 12 years old, his mother gave him a years old, his mother gave him a years old, his mother gave him a computer and he was hooked. By the time computer and he was hooked. By the time computer and he was hooked. By the time he was 16, he was head of a notorious he was 16, he was head of a notorious he was 16, he was head of a notorious gang of telephone and internet hackers gang of telephone and internet hackers gang of telephone and internet hackers called the Masters of Deception. Today, called the Masters of Deception. Today, called the Masters of Deception. Today, at 22, he's considered one of the best at 22, he's considered one of the best at 22, he's considered one of the best hackers in the nation. For that reason, hackers in the nation. For that reason, hackers in the nation. For that reason, we hired him as a consultant for this we hired him as a consultant for this we hired him as a consultant for this report.

report. report. >> You have said that you could, I quote >> You have said that you could, I quote >> You have said that you could, I quote you, type five keys that would commit a you, type five keys that would commit a you, type five keys that would commit a crime that could put you in prison for crime that could put you in prison for crime that could put you in prison for five years. How? five years. How? five years. How? Oh, well I I Well, that's a trade Oh, well I I Well, that's a trade Oh, well I I Well, that's a trade secret. I can't tell you those five secret. I can't tell you those five secret. I can't tell you those five keystrokes, but yeah. I mean, it's not a keystrokes, but yeah. I mean, it's not a keystrokes, but yeah. I mean, it's not a violent crime. violent crime. violent crime. >> It's breaking and entering, >> It's breaking and entering, >> It's breaking and entering, >> but it is a crime. >> but it is a crime. >> but it is a crime. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's what the judge said when he put >> That's what the judge said when he put >> That's what the judge said when he put John Lee and the other masters of John Lee and the other masters of John Lee and the other masters of deception away for a year for breaking deception away for a year for breaking deception away for a year for breaking into the computers of several blue chip into the computers of several blue chip into the computers of several blue chip corporations, corporations, corporations, >> which is, I guess, what you did with >> which is, I guess, what you did with >> which is, I guess, what you did with TRW, Bank of America, Martin Marietta. H TRW, Bank of America, Martin Marietta. H TRW, Bank of America, Martin Marietta. H these names are familiar to me. these names are familiar to me. these names are familiar to me. >> What could you have done, John, if you >> What could you have done, John, if you >> What could you have done, John, if you had wanted to honest? had wanted to honest? had wanted to honest? Let's go down to the list. Let's go down to the list. Let's go down to the list. >> Number one says Lee, he was not only >> Number one says Lee, he was not only >> Number one says Lee, he was not only able to use the internet to obtain and able to use the internet to obtain and able to use the internet to obtain and sell the personal credit records of sell the personal credit records of sell the personal credit records of anyone he wanted, which he did, but anyone he wanted, which he did, but anyone he wanted, which he did, but actually he could have changed their actually he could have changed their actually he could have changed their credit ratings.

credit ratings. credit ratings. >> Yeah. Well, changing credit is like >> Yeah. Well, changing credit is like >> Yeah. Well, changing credit is like pretty easy, actually. pretty easy, actually. pretty easy, actually. >> Is it? Um, >> Is it? Um, >> Is it? Um, >> what else? >> what else? >> what else? >> If someone was so inclined, they could >> If someone was so inclined, they could >> If someone was so inclined, they could make reservations, make reservations, make reservations, rent limos, rent limos, rent limos, take airplane flights, take airplane flights, take airplane flights, >> all on somebody else's credit card. >> all on somebody else's credit card. >> all on somebody else's credit card. >> Well, actually, they could make it so it >> Well, actually, they could make it so it >> Well, actually, they could make it so it really was just free and wasn't built to really was just free and wasn't built to really was just free and wasn't built to anybody. anybody. anybody. >> How do you do that? >> How do you do that? >> How do you do that? >> Well, if you break into the computer >> Well, if you break into the computer >> Well, if you break into the computer system, you don't really have to charge system, you don't really have to charge system, you don't really have to charge it to anybody. it to anybody. it to anybody. >> Most businessmen who've been hit by >> Most businessmen who've been hit by >> Most businessmen who've been hit by hackers are too embarrassed to admit the hackers are too embarrassed to admit the hackers are too embarrassed to admit the loss of valuable corporate secrets. But loss of valuable corporate secrets. But loss of valuable corporate secrets. But one victim, James Lenain, who develops one victim, James Lenain, who develops one victim, James Lenain, who develops computer software, told us he had just computer software, told us he had just computer software, told us he had just started to market a new word processing started to market a new word processing started to market a new word processing program called Describe when a customer program called Describe when a customer program called Describe when a customer phoned him to say that it was suddenly phoned him to say that it was suddenly phoned him to say that it was suddenly available worldwide on the internet free available worldwide on the internet free available worldwide on the internet free of charge to anyone who wanted it. The of charge to anyone who wanted it. The of charge to anyone who wanted it. The hackers had struck again hackers had struck again hackers had struck again >> and now it's all over the world. It can >> and now it's all over the world. It can >> and now it's all over the world. It can never be recovered. So it's out there never be recovered. So it's out there never be recovered. So it's out there basically you can get described for basically you can get described for basically you can get described for nothing. So that's happened. Fact is, if nothing. So that's happened. Fact is, if nothing. So that's happened. Fact is, if you know where to go and how to do it on you know where to go and how to do it on you know where to go and how to do it on this new superighway, you can find just this new superighway, you can find just this new superighway, you can find just about every single computer software about every single computer software about every single computer software program there is, either for free or for program there is, either for free or for program there is, either for free or for sale, way below normal cost. How much sale, way below normal cost. How much sale, way below normal cost. How much did you have invested in this software?

did you have invested in this software? did you have invested in this software? >> I've personally invested $10 million in >> I've personally invested $10 million in >> I've personally invested $10 million in it and it's yet to turn 1 cent of it and it's yet to turn 1 cent of it and it's yet to turn 1 cent of profit. profit. profit. >> This technology is different than any >> This technology is different than any >> This technology is different than any technology we've had before. Scott technology we've had before. Scott technology we've had before. Scott Charnie heads the computer crime unit of Charnie heads the computer crime unit of Charnie heads the computer crime unit of the US Department of Justice in the US Department of Justice in the US Department of Justice in Washington. Washington. Washington. >> Think about the automobile. Adults drove >> Think about the automobile. Adults drove >> Think about the automobile. Adults drove and then they taught their kids how to and then they taught their kids how to and then they taught their kids how to drive. Here we have a technology in the drive. Here we have a technology in the drive. Here we have a technology in the hands of the children hands of the children hands of the children >> that the adults don't know anything >> that the adults don't know anything >> that the adults don't know anything about. about. about. >> Nope. And their school teachers may not >> Nope. And their school teachers may not >> Nope. And their school teachers may not know anything about it and no one's know anything about it and no one's know anything about it and no one's teaching them how to use it teaching them how to use it teaching them how to use it >> and it's a powerful technology >> and it's a powerful technology >> and it's a powerful technology >> and no one knows better than John Lee >> and no one knows better than John Lee >> and no one knows better than John Lee what you can do with that technology. what you can do with that technology. what you can do with that technology. obviously change bank balances. You can obviously change bank balances. You can obviously change bank balances. You can get um inside of trading information. get um inside of trading information. get um inside of trading information. You can instantly You can instantly You can instantly um take out the phone service in a whole um take out the phone service in a whole um take out the phone service in a whole area. I mean, you even could control area. I mean, you even could control area. I mean, you even could control things like gas and light, electricity. things like gas and light, electricity. things like gas and light, electricity. I mean, you could even tap lines if you I mean, you could even tap lines if you I mean, you could even tap lines if you want to. And I must admit that those want to. And I must admit that those want to. And I must admit that those type of powers can go to your head type of powers can go to your head type of powers can go to your head really fast. really fast. really fast. 12 years ago, the film War Games told 12 years ago, the film War Games told 12 years ago, the film War Games told the story of an all-American teenage the story of an all-American teenage the story of an all-American teenage hacker who managed to break into hacker who managed to break into hacker who managed to break into Pentagon computers and almost trigger a Pentagon computers and almost trigger a Pentagon computers and almost trigger a nuclear war. Well, that is no longer nuclear war. Well, that is no longer nuclear war. Well, that is no longer completely science fiction. Some of our completely science fiction. Some of our completely science fiction. Some of our military computers here in the United military computers here in the United military computers here in the United States have been successfully hacked States have been successfully hacked States have been successfully hacked into recently. No.

into recently. No. into recently. No. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Serious? >> Serious? >> Serious? >> Yes. It's actually funny because um the >> Yes. It's actually funny because um the >> Yes. It's actually funny because um the truth be known, military sites are truth be known, military sites are truth be known, military sites are actually less secure than like actually less secure than like actually less secure than like universities or corporations. universities or corporations. universities or corporations. >> During Operation Desert Storm, for >> During Operation Desert Storm, for >> During Operation Desert Storm, for example, industry insiders say that some example, industry insiders say that some example, industry insiders say that some Dutch hackers broke into US military Dutch hackers broke into US military Dutch hackers broke into US military computers to get information on troop computers to get information on troop computers to get information on troop and personnel movements. The Pentagon and personnel movements. The Pentagon and personnel movements. The Pentagon denies that, but they don't deny that denies that, but they don't deny that denies that, but they don't deny that other hackers have managed to access other hackers have managed to access other hackers have managed to access data on everything from ballistic data on everything from ballistic data on everything from ballistic missiles to advanced aircraft design. missiles to advanced aircraft design. missiles to advanced aircraft design. And yet another hacker used the internet And yet another hacker used the internet And yet another hacker used the internet to break into the computers at Griffith to break into the computers at Griffith to break into the computers at Griffith Air Force Base in New York State. Air Force Base in New York State. Air Force Base in New York State. >> And that was tracked back to a >> And that was tracked back to a >> And that was tracked back to a 16-year-old in Great Britain. 16-year-old in Great Britain. 16-year-old in Great Britain. >> The US Air Force has a group that tests >> The US Air Force has a group that tests >> The US Air Force has a group that tests the security of their installations. the security of their installations. the security of their installations. They break in to their own computers. They break in to their own computers. They break in to their own computers. They're inside hackers, if you will. They're inside hackers, if you will. They're inside hackers, if you will. >> And I've read reports that say that only >> And I've read reports that say that only >> And I've read reports that say that only 3 to 5% of the places that they attack 3 to 5% of the places that they attack 3 to 5% of the places that they attack ever notice that they've been attacked.

ever notice that they've been attacked. ever notice that they've been attacked. >> But so far, most of the hackers have >> But so far, most of the hackers have >> But so far, most of the hackers have been roaming the internet, as we said, been roaming the internet, as we said, been roaming the internet, as we said, largely out of nosiness and a desire to largely out of nosiness and a desire to largely out of nosiness and a desire to beat the system. When I used to break beat the system. When I used to break beat the system. When I used to break into computers, it was a challenge to into computers, it was a challenge to into computers, it was a challenge to see how good they were versus how good I see how good they were versus how good I see how good they were versus how good I was. was. was. >> Well, as this government film sees it, >> Well, as this government film sees it, >> Well, as this government film sees it, that attitude's changing. that attitude's changing. that attitude's changing. >> As money mixes with ego, the cyber punks >> As money mixes with ego, the cyber punks >> As money mixes with ego, the cyber punks are becoming better organized. Rarely are becoming better organized. Rarely are becoming better organized. Rarely working alone, they've now developed the working alone, they've now developed the working alone, they've now developed the power to intercept government and power to intercept government and power to intercept government and corporate databases, steal secrets, and corporate databases, steal secrets, and corporate databases, steal secrets, and destroy communications. destroy communications. destroy communications. Law enforcement officials are training Law enforcement officials are training Law enforcement officials are training to go after hackers who increasingly are to go after hackers who increasingly are to go after hackers who increasingly are turning their talents to criminal turning their talents to criminal turning their talents to criminal activity. activity. activity. >> There's a percentage of the US >> There's a percentage of the US >> There's a percentage of the US population that's up to no good. So, population that's up to no good. So, population that's up to no good. So, they're going to look at this technology they're going to look at this technology they're going to look at this technology and say, "How can I commit fraud using and say, "How can I commit fraud using and say, "How can I commit fraud using this technology? How can I steal this technology? How can I steal this technology? How can I steal property using this technology? How can property using this technology? How can property using this technology? How can I injure people if they're so inclined I injure people if they're so inclined I injure people if they're so inclined using this technology?" So the John using this technology?" So the John using this technology?" So the John Gottis of the future will be uh hackers Gottis of the future will be uh hackers Gottis of the future will be uh hackers or the grandsons of hackers.

or the grandsons of hackers. or the grandsons of hackers. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> The US government also worries that the >> The US government also worries that the >> The US government also worries that the James Bonds, the master spies and the James Bonds, the master spies and the James Bonds, the master spies and the terrorists of the future will be terrorists of the future will be terrorists of the future will be hackers. hackers. hackers. >> What we're seeing is that corporate >> What we're seeing is that corporate >> What we're seeing is that corporate espionage and government espionage has espionage and government espionage has espionage and government espionage has gone into the computer age. Foreign gone into the computer age. Foreign gone into the computer age. Foreign intelligence services have discovered intelligence services have discovered intelligence services have discovered that they have to help their national that they have to help their national that they have to help their national economies. And in many cases, the way to economies. And in many cases, the way to economies. And in many cases, the way to do that is with industrial espionage, do that is with industrial espionage, do that is with industrial espionage, steal the secrets, jumpstart your steal the secrets, jumpstart your steal the secrets, jumpstart your industries without ever having to leave industries without ever having to leave industries without ever having to leave home. home. home. >> You mean somebody can sit, I suppose, >> You mean somebody can sit, I suppose, >> You mean somebody can sit, I suppose, from here. You could sit if were you of from here. You could sit if were you of from here. You could sit if were you of a mind to a mind to a mind to >> and enter somebody else's anywhere in >> and enter somebody else's anywhere in >> and enter somebody else's anywhere in the world and that's the internet. One the world and that's the internet. One the world and that's the internet. One outfit that is supposed to help deal outfit that is supposed to help deal outfit that is supposed to help deal with these risks is the computer with these risks is the computer with these risks is the computer emergency response team at Carnegie emergency response team at Carnegie emergency response team at Carnegie Melon University in Pittsburgh. Funded Melon University in Pittsburgh. Funded Melon University in Pittsburgh. Funded by the US government, its task is to by the US government, its task is to by the US government, its task is to help prevent breakins on the internet by help prevent breakins on the internet by help prevent breakins on the internet by advising how to block them. And it's a advising how to block them. And it's a advising how to block them. And it's a tough job for the internet, as we said, tough job for the internet, as we said, tough job for the internet, as we said, is a web of tens of thousands of is a web of tens of thousands of is a web of tens of thousands of different companies and universities, different companies and universities, different companies and universities, government institutions, and private government institutions, and private government institutions, and private individuals. Until just recently, Dane individuals. Until just recently, Dane individuals. Until just recently, Dane Garry managed CERT.

Garry managed CERT. Garry managed CERT. >> Who's in charge of internet? >> Who's in charge of internet? >> Who's in charge of internet? >> Uh, Mike, there's no one in charge of >> Uh, Mike, there's no one in charge of >> Uh, Mike, there's no one in charge of the internet. There is no network the internet. There is no network the internet. There is no network manager. There's no network manager. There's no network manager. There's no network administration at the internet level. administration at the internet level. administration at the internet level. >> The US is now doing its best to make >> The US is now doing its best to make >> The US is now doing its best to make computer crime a crime worldwide. computer crime a crime worldwide. computer crime a crime worldwide. Because as it stands right now though Because as it stands right now though Because as it stands right now though hackers in the United States who break hackers in the United States who break hackers in the United States who break in over the internet can be prosecuted in over the internet can be prosecuted in over the internet can be prosecuted under US law that is not necessarily so under US law that is not necessarily so under US law that is not necessarily so with hackers overseas. with hackers overseas. with hackers overseas. >> That individual could well be a foreign >> That individual could well be a foreign >> That individual could well be a foreign government. That individual could be a government. That individual could be a government. That individual could be a foreign competitor that is paying for foreign competitor that is paying for foreign competitor that is paying for that information. that information. that information. >> That's breaking, entering, and selling. >> That's breaking, entering, and selling. >> That's breaking, entering, and selling. >> It's breaking and entering by your >> It's breaking and entering by your >> It's breaking and entering by your definition. But let's suppose he was not definition. But let's suppose he was not definition. But let's suppose he was not in this country. Let's suppose he used in this country. Let's suppose he used in this country. Let's suppose he used the internet and was somewhere overseas the internet and was somewhere overseas the internet and was somewhere overseas to to exercise this particular attack to to exercise this particular attack to to exercise this particular attack and the country from which he is and the country from which he is and the country from which he is operating it may not be illegal. operating it may not be illegal. operating it may not be illegal. The internet knows no jurisdiction. The internet knows no jurisdiction. The internet knows no jurisdiction. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> This this cyberspace that we're >> This this cyberspace that we're >> This this cyberspace that we're describing is not bounded and there are describing is not bounded and there are describing is not bounded and there are places on the planet that don't know places on the planet that don't know places on the planet that don't know technologies that have never had to technologies that have never had to technologies that have never had to address the issues of computer crime and address the issues of computer crime and address the issues of computer crime and therefore it's not been determined that therefore it's not been determined that therefore it's not been determined that that activity is illegal. Nobody that activity is illegal. Nobody that activity is illegal. Nobody realized what the risks were when we realized what the risks were when we realized what the risks were when we first started out. We had no idea what first started out. We had no idea what first started out. We had no idea what it would what it would become.

it would what it would become. it would what it would become. >> Young John Lee again, he says, "A hacker >> Young John Lee again, he says, "A hacker >> Young John Lee again, he says, "A hacker can always keep ahead of security. can always keep ahead of security. can always keep ahead of security. Always has new ways to beat the cops, so Always has new ways to beat the cops, so Always has new ways to beat the cops, so to speak. to speak. to speak. >> You cannot make a computer secure. You >> You cannot make a computer secure. You >> You cannot make a computer secure. You can reduce the risk, but but you can't can reduce the risk, but but you can't can reduce the risk, but but you can't guarantee security. It just isn't going guarantee security. It just isn't going guarantee security. It just isn't going to happen." to happen." to happen." >> Going to jail was a very painful >> Going to jail was a very painful >> Going to jail was a very painful experience. But out of all the stuff experience. But out of all the stuff experience. But out of all the stuff that I've seen from hacking that I've seen from hacking that I've seen from hacking >> and doing stuff all over the world and >> and doing stuff all over the world and >> and doing stuff all over the world and stuff, I must admit um if someone said, stuff, I must admit um if someone said, stuff, I must admit um if someone said, "Would you do it all over again?" I "Would you do it all over again?" I "Would you do it all over again?" I think I say, "Yeah." Have you heard that Microsoft is buying Have you heard that Microsoft is buying the Catholic Church? Have you heard the Catholic Church? Have you heard the Catholic Church? Have you heard about the organ thieves who kidnap about the organ thieves who kidnap about the organ thieves who kidnap travelers and then steal their kidneys? travelers and then steal their kidneys? travelers and then steal their kidneys? You haven't? then you are not on the You haven't? then you are not on the You haven't? then you are not on the internet. Those are just a couple of the internet. Those are just a couple of the internet. Those are just a couple of the hoaxes that have been put out all around hoaxes that have been put out all around hoaxes that have been put out all around the world on the internet and believe by the world on the internet and believe by the world on the internet and believe by people who you would think would know people who you would think would know people who you would think would know better. Now, of course, the internet is better. Now, of course, the internet is better. Now, of course, the internet is a wonderful communications tool full of a wonderful communications tool full of a wonderful communications tool full of valuable information. But it has also valuable information. But it has also valuable information. But it has also turned out to be the most powerful turned out to be the most powerful turned out to be the most powerful system for spouting off and for system for spouting off and for system for spouting off and for spreading rumors and scams. And good spreading rumors and scams. And good spreading rumors and scams. And good luck trying to tell the truth from the luck trying to tell the truth from the luck trying to tell the truth from the lies.

lies. lies. >> Wasn't there a rumor spread around? Yes, >> Wasn't there a rumor spread around? Yes, >> Wasn't there a rumor spread around? Yes, whatever it was. whatever it was. whatever it was. >> Whatever it was, just say yes. Our guide >> Whatever it was, just say yes. Our guide >> Whatever it was, just say yes. Our guide to online nonsense is Andrew Caner, to online nonsense is Andrew Caner, to online nonsense is Andrew Caner, senior editor of Internet World senior editor of Internet World senior editor of Internet World magazine. Name a topic and he'll find magazine. Name a topic and he'll find magazine. Name a topic and he'll find some kind of mischief. Say investments. some kind of mischief. Say investments. some kind of mischief. Say investments. >> Fast cash, instant cash, easy money. >> Fast cash, instant cash, easy money. >> Fast cash, instant cash, easy money. >> Just scroll down. Let's see how many. >> Just scroll down. Let's see how many. >> Just scroll down. Let's see how many. >> There are about 2,000. We can tell from >> There are about 2,000. We can tell from >> There are about 2,000. We can tell from about 2,000. about 2,000. about 2,000. >> Or what about health information? >> Or what about health information? >> Or what about health information? There's lots of good stuff. So, someone There's lots of good stuff. So, someone There's lots of good stuff. So, someone wrote in, "I've heard about an arthritis wrote in, "I've heard about an arthritis wrote in, "I've heard about an arthritis cure using raisins and gin." cure using raisins and gin." cure using raisins and gin." Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Saying whatever you want, goofy or >> Saying whatever you want, goofy or >> Saying whatever you want, goofy or genuine, asinine or accurate, and no genuine, asinine or accurate, and no genuine, asinine or accurate, and no editor to tell you no. That's the whole editor to tell you no. That's the whole editor to tell you no. That's the whole point of the internet. What if I just point of the internet. What if I just point of the internet. What if I just wanted to vent my rage at whatever? Or I wanted to vent my rage at whatever? Or I wanted to vent my rage at whatever? Or I heard a great story that I wanted heard a great story that I wanted heard a great story that I wanted everybody to know. Can I just get out everybody to know. Can I just get out everybody to know. Can I just get out there? there? there? >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. >> Piece of cake. In about 30 seconds, >> Piece of cake. In about 30 seconds, >> Piece of cake. In about 30 seconds, Caner turned me into an instant Caner turned me into an instant Caner turned me into an instant publisher on the worldwide web.

publisher on the worldwide web. publisher on the worldwide web. >> I use a little tag here to make it big. >> I use a little tag here to make it big. >> I use a little tag here to make it big. And I'm going to save the file And I'm going to save the file And I'm going to save the file >> that I have my page. >> that I have my page. >> that I have my page. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> I can go out there and say anything I >> I can go out there and say anything I >> I can go out there and say anything I want. want. want. >> Take me about 10 seconds to make this >> Take me about 10 seconds to make this >> Take me about 10 seconds to make this live on the internet. live on the internet. live on the internet. >> Live on the internet. That's where >> Live on the internet. That's where >> Live on the internet. That's where everyone wants to be. And a whole everyone wants to be. And a whole everyone wants to be. And a whole industry has grown up to help them get industry has grown up to help them get industry has grown up to help them get there. From the biggest company to a guy there. From the biggest company to a guy there. From the biggest company to a guy in his basement, anyone can have a site in his basement, anyone can have a site in his basement, anyone can have a site on the worldwide web and a whole lot on the worldwide web and a whole lot on the worldwide web and a whole lot better looking than mine. Fancy layout better looking than mine. Fancy layout better looking than mine. Fancy layout full of photos and graphics. And they're full of photos and graphics. And they're full of photos and graphics. And they're all competing to pop up on your computer all competing to pop up on your computer all competing to pop up on your computer screen. screen. screen. >> The internet's huge. A lot of ways to >> The internet's huge. A lot of ways to >> The internet's huge. A lot of ways to find your way around it. There are find your way around it. There are find your way around it. There are things called search engines. Type in a things called search engines. Type in a things called search engines. Type in a word, type in a phrase, and it finds the word, type in a phrase, and it finds the word, type in a phrase, and it finds the information out on the internet. Gives information out on the internet. Gives information out on the internet. Gives you a list. For instance, if you want you a list. For instance, if you want you a list. For instance, if you want information on last summer's jumbo jet information on last summer's jumbo jet information on last summer's jumbo jet crash, type in TWWA800. crash, type in TWWA800. crash, type in TWWA800. >> Whoa. The first link, TWWA 800 coverup. >> Whoa. The first link, TWWA 800 coverup. >> Whoa. The first link, TWWA 800 coverup. >> Oo, there we go.

>> Oo, there we go. >> Oo, there we go. >> Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. >> Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. >> Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. >> What the media is hiding. What the media >> What the media is hiding. What the media >> What the media is hiding. What the media knows and isn't telling us. knows and isn't telling us. knows and isn't telling us. >> More of what the media is hiding. Ah, >> More of what the media is hiding. Ah, >> More of what the media is hiding. Ah, here. TWW800. The facts from a different here. TWW800. The facts from a different here. TWW800. The facts from a different place. Oh, the streak of light reported place. Oh, the streak of light reported place. Oh, the streak of light reported to hit the plane followed the course to hit the plane followed the course to hit the plane followed the course like the outline of a parabola. Not like the outline of a parabola. Not like the outline of a parabola. Not unlike a guided missile. I like that. unlike a guided missile. I like that. unlike a guided missile. I like that. Not Not Not >> there. It is. Boy. And doesn't that look >> there. It is. Boy. And doesn't that look >> there. It is. Boy. And doesn't that look authentic to you? authentic to you? authentic to you? >> Yes. Fact one. >> Yes. Fact one. >> Yes. Fact one. >> There are thousands of wild theories on >> There are thousands of wild theories on >> There are thousands of wild theories on thousands of authentic looking websites. thousands of authentic looking websites. thousands of authentic looking websites. Take this site. Hundreds of pages of Take this site. Hundreds of pages of Take this site. Hundreds of pages of conjecture and hearsay masquerading as conjecture and hearsay masquerading as conjecture and hearsay masquerading as fact. And this is the man behind the fact. And this is the man behind the fact. And this is the man behind the site, J. Orland of Reno, Nevada. site, J. Orland of Reno, Nevada. site, J. Orland of Reno, Nevada. He has a Harvard PhD, but now he's He has a Harvard PhD, but now he's He has a Harvard PhD, but now he's spouting conspiracy theories in spouting conspiracy theories in spouting conspiracy theories in cyberspace. cyberspace. cyberspace. He says that commerce secretary Ron He says that commerce secretary Ron He says that commerce secretary Ron Brown was murdered and that the Israeli Brown was murdered and that the Israeli Brown was murdered and that the Israeli Mossad was involved in Vince Foster's Mossad was involved in Vince Foster's Mossad was involved in Vince Foster's death. Grabby insisted on meeting us at death. Grabby insisted on meeting us at death. Grabby insisted on meeting us at a Reno bar named Area 51 after the a Reno bar named Area 51 after the a Reno bar named Area 51 after the secret air force base in the Nevada secret air force base in the Nevada secret air force base in the Nevada desert.

desert. desert. >> You have a platform around the world. >> You have a platform around the world. >> You have a platform around the world. >> Yes. I like to think that in those small >> Yes. I like to think that in those small >> Yes. I like to think that in those small uh narrow subjects in which I'm actually uh narrow subjects in which I'm actually uh narrow subjects in which I'm actually writing about, I'm competing with the writing about, I'm competing with the writing about, I'm competing with the New York Times. New York Times. New York Times. >> I mean, when you say you compete with >> I mean, when you say you compete with >> I mean, when you say you compete with the New York Times, you it's actually the New York Times, you it's actually the New York Times, you it's actually true. If you plunked in TWWA800, true. If you plunked in TWWA800, true. If you plunked in TWWA800, you might get a couple of articles from you might get a couple of articles from you might get a couple of articles from the New York Times and you'd get a the New York Times and you'd get a the New York Times and you'd get a couple of articles from you couple of articles from you couple of articles from you >> and an unsophisticated person really >> and an unsophisticated person really >> and an unsophisticated person really wouldn't be able to to distinguish in wouldn't be able to to distinguish in wouldn't be able to to distinguish in terms of accuracy, validity, checking terms of accuracy, validity, checking terms of accuracy, validity, checking journalism. journalism. journalism. >> Well, that's true. That is uh there's >> Well, that's true. That is uh there's >> Well, that's true. That is uh there's the good side of this is that everyone the good side of this is that everyone the good side of this is that everyone can become a source. The bad side is can become a source. The bad side is can become a source. The bad side is that everyone can become a source. Now, that everyone can become a source. Now, that everyone can become a source. Now, you say flat out the TWWA 800 was shot you say flat out the TWWA 800 was shot you say flat out the TWWA 800 was shot down by a phosphorus headed missile. You down by a phosphorus headed missile. You down by a phosphorus headed missile. You don't say it's a theory. don't say it's a theory. don't say it's a theory. >> You don't say maybe. You don't say there >> You don't say maybe. You don't say there >> You don't say maybe. You don't say there are indications that you just say it. are indications that you just say it. are indications that you just say it. >> Yeah. And uh and you don't have to say >> Yeah. And uh and you don't have to say >> Yeah. And uh and you don't have to say Yeah. But you don't have any proof of Yeah. But you don't have any proof of Yeah. But you don't have any proof of that. Oh, that. Oh, that. Oh, >> well, >> well, >> well, >> so >> so >> so >> so if you're getting your information >> so if you're getting your information >> so if you're getting your information from the internet, be prepared to from the internet, be prepared to from the internet, be prepared to encounter the likes of Jay Orland Gravy.

encounter the likes of Jay Orland Gravy. encounter the likes of Jay Orland Gravy. But at least he puts his real name on But at least he puts his real name on But at least he puts his real name on his nutty ideas. On the internet, anyone his nutty ideas. On the internet, anyone his nutty ideas. On the internet, anyone can pretend to be anyone else. Remember can pretend to be anyone else. Remember can pretend to be anyone else. Remember that site it took Caner about 10 seconds that site it took Caner about 10 seconds that site it took Caner about 10 seconds to make for me? I could have that say to make for me? I could have that say to make for me? I could have that say Mike Wallace's page and I could go out. Mike Wallace's page and I could go out. Mike Wallace's page and I could go out. Wouldn't be nice, but I could go out and Wouldn't be nice, but I could go out and Wouldn't be nice, but I could go out and say whatever I want and it would be say whatever I want and it would be say whatever I want and it would be under his name, but I wouldn't be doing under his name, but I wouldn't be doing under his name, but I wouldn't be doing it. it. it. >> Changes from Leslie Stall's page to Mike Wallace's page, to Mike Wallace's page, >> but it's still my page. >> but it's still my page. >> but it's still my page. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> The same anyone can pretend to be anyone >> The same anyone can pretend to be anyone >> The same anyone can pretend to be anyone principle applies to basic email. When principle applies to basic email. When principle applies to basic email. When you get an email, it's supposed to have you get an email, it's supposed to have you get an email, it's supposed to have a return address so you can tell who a return address so you can tell who a return address so you can tell who sent it and from where. sent it and from where. sent it and from where. >> Not that I'd ever want to do this, but >> Not that I'd ever want to do this, but >> Not that I'd ever want to do this, but could somebody send a an email message could somebody send a an email message could somebody send a an email message um and make it look like it was coming um and make it look like it was coming um and make it look like it was coming from somebody else? from somebody else? from somebody else? >> Oh, easily. Want to show you? >> Oh, easily. Want to show you? >> Oh, easily. Want to show you? >> Yeah, show me. >> Yeah, show me. >> Yeah, show me. >> All right. What I'm going to do is tell >> All right. What I'm going to do is tell >> All right. What I'm going to do is tell it that I am you.

it that I am you. it that I am you. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> you're going to be me. You're going to >> you're going to be me. You're going to >> you're going to be me. You're going to send a message and sign my name and send a message and sign my name and send a message and sign my name and everybody's going to believe it came everybody's going to believe it came everybody's going to believe it came from me. from me. from me. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> The way he made the fake Leslie Stall >> The way he made the fake Leslie Stall >> The way he made the fake Leslie Stall email believable was by somehow rrooting email believable was by somehow rrooting email believable was by somehow rrooting it through the CBS News computer. it through the CBS News computer. it through the CBS News computer. >> So, it has a not a stamp of approval, >> So, it has a not a stamp of approval, >> So, it has a not a stamp of approval, but to someone who does a little bit of but to someone who does a little bit of but to someone who does a little bit of extra checking, they'll see, well, it extra checking, they'll see, well, it extra checking, they'll see, well, it did come from CBS. It did not come from did come from CBS. It did not come from did come from CBS. It did not come from internet world magazine. Oh, there we internet world magazine. Oh, there we internet world magazine. Oh, there we go. A message from Leslie Stall. go. A message from Leslie Stall. go. A message from Leslie Stall. >> Leslie at CBS. >> Leslie at CBS. >> Leslie at CBS. >> Thank you for a great interview. Let me >> Thank you for a great interview. Let me >> Thank you for a great interview. Let me ask you something ask you something ask you something >> and it's from Leslie Stall. >> and it's from Leslie Stall. >> and it's from Leslie Stall. >> Could you do something as wild and >> Could you do something as wild and >> Could you do something as wild and probably inappropriate as you sending me probably inappropriate as you sending me probably inappropriate as you sending me a message from the president that was a message from the president that was a message from the president that was routed through the White House computer? routed through the White House computer? routed through the White House computer? >> Piece of cake. Exactly what I did now, >> Piece of cake. Exactly what I did now, >> Piece of cake. Exactly what I did now, except instead of Leslie at CBS News, except instead of Leslie at CBS News, except instead of Leslie at CBS News, president at whitehouse.gov. president at whitehouse.gov. president at whitehouse.gov. Send it through the White House Send it through the White House Send it through the White House computer. Not a problem. computer. Not a problem. computer. Not a problem. >> That is astonishing to me. And when I >> That is astonishing to me. And when I >> That is astonishing to me. And when I discovered I could do that, as I did, I discovered I could do that, as I did, I discovered I could do that, as I did, I wrote a letter to the White House people wrote a letter to the White House people wrote a letter to the White House people saying, "I can do this. You should make saying, "I can do this. You should make saying, "I can do this. You should make it inaccessible." And that was months it inaccessible." And that was months it inaccessible." And that was months ago. And I bet they haven't done ago. And I bet they haven't done ago. And I bet they haven't done anything about it.

anything about it. anything about it. >> Is this forgery? >> Is this forgery? >> Is this forgery? >> Um, I guess yeah, I suppose it is >> Um, I guess yeah, I suppose it is >> Um, I guess yeah, I suppose it is >> in a way. >> in a way. >> in a way. >> In a way, because I'm fooling someone. I >> In a way, because I'm fooling someone. I >> In a way, because I'm fooling someone. I could send this to someone and I could could send this to someone and I could could send this to someone and I could fool them. fool them. fool them. >> Forgery, fakery, falsehoods. They're >> Forgery, fakery, falsehoods. They're >> Forgery, fakery, falsehoods. They're everywhere on the internet. And rumors everywhere on the internet. And rumors everywhere on the internet. And rumors are so rampant that cyerspace is are so rampant that cyerspace is are so rampant that cyerspace is becoming a dangerous place, especially becoming a dangerous place, especially becoming a dangerous place, especially for corporate America. That's where it's for corporate America. That's where it's for corporate America. That's where it's important for a company to really be important for a company to really be important for a company to really be prepared. prepared. prepared. >> James Alexander is in the business of >> James Alexander is in the business of >> James Alexander is in the business of listening to the internet. His service, listening to the internet. His service, listening to the internet. His service, EWatch, electronically monitors hundreds EWatch, electronically monitors hundreds EWatch, electronically monitors hundreds of thousands of new internet messages of thousands of new internet messages of thousands of new internet messages every day. More than 200 big every day. More than 200 big every day. More than 200 big corporations pay for daily reports corporations pay for daily reports corporations pay for daily reports telling them everything that's being telling them everything that's being telling them everything that's being said about them online. Everything. The said about them online. Everything. The said about them online. Everything. The good, the bad, the lies, and the rumors. good, the bad, the lies, and the rumors. good, the bad, the lies, and the rumors. There have always been rumors about big There have always been rumors about big There have always been rumors about big companies. companies. companies. >> Um Proctor and Gamble was called satanic >> Um Proctor and Gamble was called satanic >> Um Proctor and Gamble was called satanic at one point. Uh is this is this that at one point. Uh is this is this that at one point. Uh is this is this that different? different? different? >> The problem now is that people are out >> The problem now is that people are out >> The problem now is that people are out on the internet instead of telling 20 on the internet instead of telling 20 on the internet instead of telling 20 people, they're telling 20 million people, they're telling 20 million people, they're telling 20 million people. And that's the issue.

people. And that's the issue. people. And that's the issue. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> And they're doing it instantly. >> Alexander's company watches not just >> Alexander's company watches not just >> Alexander's company watches not just websites, but another huge part of the websites, but another huge part of the websites, but another huge part of the internet, news groups. Those are internet, news groups. Those are internet, news groups. Those are thousands of online conversation groups thousands of online conversation groups thousands of online conversation groups covering topics from UFOs to gardening. covering topics from UFOs to gardening. covering topics from UFOs to gardening. It's in the news groups that rumors It's in the news groups that rumors It's in the news groups that rumors often start. Like one false report on often start. Like one false report on often start. Like one false report on the day that OJ Simpson was acquitted, the day that OJ Simpson was acquitted, the day that OJ Simpson was acquitted, that Mrs. Fields cookies, one of that Mrs. Fields cookies, one of that Mrs. Fields cookies, one of Alexander's clients, had donated free Alexander's clients, had donated free Alexander's clients, had donated free sweets to OJ's victory party. Instantly, sweets to OJ's victory party. Instantly, sweets to OJ's victory party. Instantly, an effort to boycott Mrs. Fields was an effort to boycott Mrs. Fields was an effort to boycott Mrs. Fields was underway online. Now, over the next two underway online. Now, over the next two underway online. Now, over the next two days, which happened to be a weekend, days, which happened to be a weekend, days, which happened to be a weekend, that rumor migrated to eight major that rumor migrated to eight major that rumor migrated to eight major high-profile news groups. By Monday, high-profile news groups. By Monday, high-profile news groups. By Monday, they had seen a single-digit drop in they had seen a single-digit drop in they had seen a single-digit drop in sales that was inexplicable, and they sales that was inexplicable, and they sales that was inexplicable, and they decided at that point that they had to decided at that point that they had to decided at that point that they had to respond. We didn't do it. It's not true. respond. We didn't do it. It's not true. respond. We didn't do it. It's not true. >> End of rumor. But you can't kill a rumor >> End of rumor. But you can't kill a rumor >> End of rumor. But you can't kill a rumor you don't know is there, and most you don't know is there, and most you don't know is there, and most companies still don't. To illustrate, we companies still don't. To illustrate, we companies still don't. To illustrate, we signed 60 Minutes up for the EWatch signed 60 Minutes up for the EWatch signed 60 Minutes up for the EWatch service to see what's being said online service to see what's being said online service to see what's being said online about us.

about us. about us. >> And the subject line is Mac Horn 60 >> And the subject line is Mac Horn 60 >> And the subject line is Mac Horn 60 Minutes. Minutes. Minutes. >> M. Horn was interviewed in a recent Ed >> M. Horn was interviewed in a recent Ed >> M. Horn was interviewed in a recent Ed Bradley story. Horn publishes a guide to Bradley story. Horn publishes a guide to Bradley story. Horn publishes a guide to sex tours of Asia. sex tours of Asia. sex tours of Asia. >> And basically, he's saying, "How much do >> And basically, he's saying, "How much do >> And basically, he's saying, "How much do you think they paid Mr. Horn for his you think they paid Mr. Horn for his you think they paid Mr. Horn for his interview?" interview?" interview?" And so it looks like M. Horn is And so it looks like M. Horn is And so it looks like M. Horn is responding and he's saying $50,000 plus responding and he's saying $50,000 plus responding and he's saying $50,000 plus first class airfare to New York hotel first class airfare to New York hotel first class airfare to New York hotel for my entire company with limo service, for my entire company with limo service, for my entire company with limo service, first class hotel accommodations. first class hotel accommodations. first class hotel accommodations. >> I know that's not true. That is not >> I know that's not true. That is not >> I know that's not true. That is not true. true. true. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I am denying that. >> I am denying that. >> I am denying that. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> this is a rumor. >> this is a rumor. >> this is a rumor. >> This is a rumor and it's now on the web. >> This is a rumor and it's now on the web. >> This is a rumor and it's now on the web. >> This is on the internet right now as we >> This is on the internet right now as we >> This is on the internet right now as we speak. speak. speak. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And before you know it, you may have >> And before you know it, you may have >> And before you know it, you may have this rumor now appearing all over the this rumor now appearing all over the this rumor now appearing all over the internet for various reasons. But I mean internet for various reasons. But I mean internet for various reasons. But I mean someone else or he himself could you're someone else or he himself could you're someone else or he himself could you're saying could fling it in every saying could fling it in every saying could fling it in every direction. direction. direction. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> In a flash. >> In a flash. >> In a flash. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Whether it's a malicious lie about 60 >> Whether it's a malicious lie about 60 >> Whether it's a malicious lie about 60 Minutes or a conspiracy theory about Minutes or a conspiracy theory about Minutes or a conspiracy theory about TWWA800 TWWA800 TWWA800 rumors never die on the internet.

rumors never die on the internet. rumors never die on the internet. >> Now I know that you are a great advocate >> Now I know that you are a great advocate >> Now I know that you are a great advocate of the whole web the way it is. It of the whole web the way it is. It of the whole web the way it is. It shouldn't be regulated. Shouldn't be shouldn't be regulated. Shouldn't be shouldn't be regulated. Shouldn't be touched. touched. touched. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Shouldn't this be expuned? >> Shouldn't this be expuned? >> Shouldn't this be expuned? >> On what grounds? >> On what grounds? >> On what grounds? >> That it's wrong. It's inaccurate. It's >> That it's wrong. It's inaccurate. It's >> That it's wrong. It's inaccurate. It's irresponsible. irresponsible. irresponsible. It is spreading fear and suspicion of It is spreading fear and suspicion of It is spreading fear and suspicion of the government. I mean, 10,000 reasons. the government. I mean, 10,000 reasons. the government. I mean, 10,000 reasons. >> Sedition. I see. So, it's >> Sedition. I see. So, it's >> Sedition. I see. So, it's anti-government. So, it spreads fear. anti-government. So, it spreads fear. anti-government. So, it spreads fear. Who should do it first of all? Who Who should do it first of all? Who Who should do it first of all? Who should be in charge of of regulating should be in charge of of regulating should be in charge of of regulating this? Should the government do it? this? Should the government do it? this? Should the government do it? >> So, you think it's better just to leave >> So, you think it's better just to leave >> So, you think it's better just to leave all this junk out there? all this junk out there? all this junk out there? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Than the alternative, which would be >> Than the alternative, which would be >> Than the alternative, which would be some force that you don't trust making some force that you don't trust making some force that you don't trust making decisions about what stays and doesn't decisions about what stays and doesn't decisions about what stays and doesn't stay. some force that no one should stay. some force that no one should stay. some force that no one should trust. trust. trust. >> The truth is that even if there was a >> The truth is that even if there was a >> The truth is that even if there was a force that we did trust, the technology force that we did trust, the technology force that we did trust, the technology is so advanced that an online policeman is so advanced that an online policeman is so advanced that an online policeman would be impossible. would be impossible. would be impossible. >> How is a kid supposed to discern what's >> How is a kid supposed to discern what's >> How is a kid supposed to discern what's true and not true? Everything looks the true and not true? Everything looks the true and not true? Everything looks the same and he's writing a paper or he's same and he's writing a paper or he's same and he's writing a paper or he's learning. learning. learning. >> Well, what if a kid goes to the library >> Well, what if a kid goes to the library >> Well, what if a kid goes to the library and gets a whole bunch of magazines on a and gets a whole bunch of magazines on a and gets a whole bunch of magazines on a subject? Whitewater, there's a political subject? Whitewater, there's a political subject? Whitewater, there's a political subject. Well, they some conservative subject. Well, they some conservative subject. Well, they some conservative magazines, some liberal magazines. Who magazines, some liberal magazines. Who magazines, some liberal magazines. Who do you believe? I think the it forces do you believe? I think the it forces do you believe? I think the it forces the consumer, whether it's a ninth grade the consumer, whether it's a ninth grade the consumer, whether it's a ninth grade student, student, student, >> you you don't have very many magazines >> you you don't have very many magazines >> you you don't have very many magazines filled with filled with filled with people who are just spouting off.

people who are just spouting off. people who are just spouting off. >> Very true. But there's a lot of bad >> Very true. But there's a lot of bad >> Very true. But there's a lot of bad information in the world in general. information in the world in general. information in the world in general. This lets everyone have voice. Yes. This lets everyone have voice. Yes. This lets everyone have voice. Yes. >> And this forces people, that nth grade >> And this forces people, that nth grade >> And this forces people, that nth grade student, to look and say, who is saying student, to look and say, who is saying student, to look and say, who is saying this? Is this a real organization saying this? Is this a real organization saying this? Is this a real organization saying something? It forces them to not just something? It forces them to not just something? It forces them to not just take what's handed to them and accept it take what's handed to them and accept it take what's handed to them and accept it as true, but to think about it. as true, but to think about it. as true, but to think about it. >> Think about this the next time your >> Think about this the next time your >> Think about this the next time your ninth grader goes online. Think about ninth grader goes online. Think about ninth grader goes online. Think about Jay Orland Graby. I think that people Jay Orland Graby. I think that people Jay Orland Graby. I think that people reading your page would say you make reading your page would say you make reading your page would say you make this stuff up. this stuff up. this stuff up. >> Oh, well then >> Oh, well then >> Oh, well then >> just out of your head, >> just out of your head, >> just out of your head, >> then fine. They can ignore it. >> then fine. They can ignore it. >> then fine. They can ignore it. >> You don't believe all this stuff, do >> You don't believe all this stuff, do >> You don't believe all this stuff, do you? you? you? >> Oh, I don't know. I don't believe much >> Oh, I don't know. I don't believe much >> Oh, I don't know. I don't believe much of anything. Since we first broadcast our report Since we first broadcast our report about online privacy late last year, about online privacy late last year, about online privacy late last year, countless other stories and a couple of countless other stories and a couple of countless other stories and a couple of government investigations have confirmed government investigations have confirmed government investigations have confirmed what we first discovered, that the what we first discovered, that the what we first discovered, that the internet is proving to be about the internet is proving to be about the internet is proving to be about the least private place on Earth.

least private place on Earth. least private place on Earth. Suppose that every time you walked Suppose that every time you walked Suppose that every time you walked around the mall, somebody uh put a around the mall, somebody uh put a around the mall, somebody uh put a barcode on your shoulder. barcode on your shoulder. barcode on your shoulder. >> Jason Catlet, an internet entrepreneur, >> Jason Catlet, an internet entrepreneur, >> Jason Catlet, an internet entrepreneur, has a passion for online privacy. has a passion for online privacy. has a passion for online privacy. >> And as you walked into the shops uh in >> And as you walked into the shops uh in >> And as you walked into the shops uh in the mall, someone came up and scanned the mall, someone came up and scanned the mall, someone came up and scanned your shoulder and got the number and your shoulder and got the number and your shoulder and got the number and that went to a database saying, "Ah, that went to a database saying, "Ah, that went to a database saying, "Ah, yes, that's Leslie who uh visited the yes, that's Leslie who uh visited the yes, that's Leslie who uh visited the shop next door 15 minutes ago." That's shop next door 15 minutes ago." That's shop next door 15 minutes ago." That's the level of surveillance that's going the level of surveillance that's going the level of surveillance that's going on on the internet. on on the internet. on on the internet. >> Catlet says that surveillance is being >> Catlet says that surveillance is being >> Catlet says that surveillance is being conducted by so-called advertising conducted by so-called advertising conducted by so-called advertising networks, companies that produce those networks, companies that produce those networks, companies that produce those banner ads you see on almost every banner ads you see on almost every banner ads you see on almost every website. website. website. >> Advertising networks are watching where >> Advertising networks are watching where >> Advertising networks are watching where you go on the internet at thousands of you go on the internet at thousands of you go on the internet at thousands of sites and they are putting into their sites and they are putting into their sites and they are putting into their databases records of what kind of things databases records of what kind of things databases records of what kind of things that you look at. that you look at. that you look at. >> It's spooky, but how do they do it? How >> It's spooky, but how do they do it? How >> It's spooky, but how do they do it? How can a company follow you all over the can a company follow you all over the can a company follow you all over the internet without your knowledge? By internet without your knowledge? By internet without your knowledge? By placing a tracking device called a placing a tracking device called a placing a tracking device called a cookie inside your computer while you're cookie inside your computer while you're cookie inside your computer while you're online.

online. online. >> Austin Hill, president of a software >> Austin Hill, president of a software >> Austin Hill, president of a software company called Zero Knowledge Systems, company called Zero Knowledge Systems, company called Zero Knowledge Systems, explains. explains. explains. >> It's actually a little file that's >> It's actually a little file that's >> It's actually a little file that's created on your operating system. created on your operating system. created on your operating system. >> You don't create it. >> You don't create it. >> You don't create it. >> That's right. When you >> That's right. When you >> That's right. When you >> you don't even know it's being created >> you don't even know it's being created >> you don't even know it's being created >> generally not. It's kind of a digital >> generally not. It's kind of a digital >> generally not. It's kind of a digital tattoo so they can remember you and tattoo so they can remember you and tattoo so they can remember you and recognize you when you come back. recognize you when you come back. recognize you when you come back. >> All I do is click on and and I'm >> All I do is click on and and I'm >> All I do is click on and and I'm announcing it's me. I'm here. Come announcing it's me. I'm here. Come announcing it's me. I'm here. Come follow me. follow me. follow me. >> I'm back. >> I'm back. >> I'm back. >> The ad networks are using cookies not >> The ad networks are using cookies not >> The ad networks are using cookies not just to track your Christmas shopping, just to track your Christmas shopping, just to track your Christmas shopping, but to build an elaborate profile of but to build an elaborate profile of but to build an elaborate profile of what news you read, even your health what news you read, even your health what news you read, even your health concerns, all in order to decide which concerns, all in order to decide which concerns, all in order to decide which ads to show you. Each ad is targeted ads to show you. Each ad is targeted ads to show you. Each ad is targeted based on your browsing history and the based on your browsing history and the based on your browsing history and the profile that they've built up about you. profile that they've built up about you. profile that they've built up about you. >> So if I go on to cbs.com on a computer >> So if I go on to cbs.com on a computer >> So if I go on to cbs.com on a computer and you go on to cbs.com, and you go on to cbs.com, and you go on to cbs.com, are you saying that we'll see different are you saying that we'll see different are you saying that we'll see different ads? ads? ads? >> Yes, you can read the same story, you >> Yes, you can read the same story, you >> Yes, you can read the same story, you will see different ads. will see different ads. will see different ads. >> My ad is just for me and your because >> My ad is just for me and your because >> My ad is just for me and your because they know what I like to buy and what they know what I like to buy and what they know what I like to buy and what I'm interested in, what I'm most likely I'm interested in, what I'm most likely I'm interested in, what I'm most likely to spend my money on.

to spend my money on. to spend my money on. >> That's right. Those little cookie files >> That's right. Those little cookie files >> That's right. Those little cookie files on your computer don't include your on your computer don't include your on your computer don't include your name, just a serial number. But with 90% name, just a serial number. But with 90% name, just a serial number. But with 90% of the top websites now asking for of the top websites now asking for of the top websites now asking for personal information, Catlet says ad personal information, Catlet says ad personal information, Catlet says ad networks have an easy way to make the networks have an easy way to make the networks have an easy way to make the match. match. match. >> This site, for example, says, >> This site, for example, says, >> This site, for example, says, >> "Look at this. Win a million dollars >> "Look at this. Win a million dollars >> "Look at this. Win a million dollars instantly. Click here." instantly. Click here." instantly. Click here." >> So we scroll down. Just fill out this >> So we scroll down. Just fill out this >> So we scroll down. Just fill out this form. your name, your initial address, form. your name, your initial address, form. your name, your initial address, your postcode, your email address, your your postcode, your email address, your your postcode, your email address, your birthday. birthday. birthday. >> Okay, so they're offering you a sweep >> Okay, so they're offering you a sweep >> Okay, so they're offering you a sweep stakes really in exchange for stakes really in exchange for stakes really in exchange for >> your personal >> your personal >> your personal >> curriculum. Vai, >> curriculum. Vai, >> curriculum. Vai, >> what you don't learn unless you weighed >> what you don't learn unless you weighed >> what you don't learn unless you weighed 18 lines deep into the fine print is 18 lines deep into the fine print is 18 lines deep into the fine print is that this site is owned by the biggest that this site is owned by the biggest that this site is owned by the biggest of the internet ad networks, a company of the internet ad networks, a company of the internet ad networks, a company called Doubleclick. So this is where called Doubleclick. So this is where called Doubleclick. So this is where DoubleClick is getting the information DoubleClick is getting the information DoubleClick is getting the information that you provided here so that they can that you provided here so that they can that you provided here so that they can identify you by your name, address, and identify you by your name, address, and identify you by your name, address, and any other information they've put any other information they've put any other information they've put together in your profile as you move together in your profile as you move together in your profile as you move around those thousands of sites.

around those thousands of sites. around those thousands of sites. >> Doubleclick and some of the other >> Doubleclick and some of the other >> Doubleclick and some of the other companies building profiles do offer companies building profiles do offer companies building profiles do offer consumers the opportunity to go to a consumers the opportunity to go to a consumers the opportunity to go to a website and say in effect, "Don't do website and say in effect, "Don't do website and say in effect, "Don't do this to me anymore." But this to me anymore." But this to me anymore." But >> the average internet user has no idea >> the average internet user has no idea >> the average internet user has no idea who DoubleClick is. They don't even know who DoubleClick is. They don't even know who DoubleClick is. They don't even know that they're dealing with this company. that they're dealing with this company. that they're dealing with this company. >> The average surfer has no idea that >> The average surfer has no idea that >> The average surfer has no idea that there's this company out there following there's this company out there following there's this company out there following them around. them around. them around. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Truth is, all kinds of non-in companies >> Truth is, all kinds of non-in companies >> Truth is, all kinds of non-in companies have been following us around for years, have been following us around for years, have been following us around for years, gathering information on us. Mail order gathering information on us. Mail order gathering information on us. Mail order firms, credit bureaus, banks, and more firms, credit bureaus, banks, and more firms, credit bureaus, banks, and more and more they're combining their and more they're combining their and more they're combining their databases with these online companies. databases with these online companies. databases with these online companies. That worries Lori Fina, who heads That worries Lori Fina, who heads That worries Lori Fina, who heads Trustee, a nonprofit watchdog group Trustee, a nonprofit watchdog group Trustee, a nonprofit watchdog group created three years ago to promote created three years ago to promote created three years ago to promote online privacy. online privacy. online privacy. >> So, a very complete set of profiles from >> So, a very complete set of profiles from >> So, a very complete set of profiles from everything to your grocery shopping everything to your grocery shopping everything to your grocery shopping practices to what kind of news that you practices to what kind of news that you practices to what kind of news that you read and your health condition and some read and your health condition and some read and your health condition and some of your thought processes and all your of your thought processes and all your of your thought processes and all your tastes are all compiled on one network.

tastes are all compiled on one network. tastes are all compiled on one network. You might go to a newspaper site and You might go to a newspaper site and You might go to a newspaper site and read an article about um investments and read an article about um investments and read an article about um investments and 10 seconds later the telephone rings and 10 seconds later the telephone rings and 10 seconds later the telephone rings and it's an insurance salesman pitching it's an insurance salesman pitching it's an insurance salesman pitching insurance at you. And that can be done insurance at you. And that can be done insurance at you. And that can be done through the linking of the online and through the linking of the online and through the linking of the online and the offline databases. the offline databases. the offline databases. >> Well, you know, some people will hear >> Well, you know, some people will hear >> Well, you know, some people will hear what you're saying and say, you know, what you're saying and say, you know, what you're saying and say, you know, that is simply too intrusive. It's that is simply too intrusive. It's that is simply too intrusive. It's scary. it's big brother and someone else scary. it's big brother and someone else scary. it's big brother and someone else would say, "Wow, that's cool. That that would say, "Wow, that's cool. That that would say, "Wow, that's cool. That that I like that." I like that." I like that." >> The question is whether the people who >> The question is whether the people who >> The question is whether the people who don't think that's a good idea should be don't think that's a good idea should be don't think that's a good idea should be have that forced upon them. have that forced upon them. have that forced upon them. >> No one's forced to go online, of course, >> No one's forced to go online, of course, >> No one's forced to go online, of course, but people who don't sure miss out on a but people who don't sure miss out on a but people who don't sure miss out on a lot. In exchange for your personal lot. In exchange for your personal lot. In exchange for your personal information, companies are offering not information, companies are offering not information, companies are offering not just the convenience of at home just the convenience of at home just the convenience of at home shopping, but an entire array of shopping, but an entire array of shopping, but an entire array of services tailored just for you. We're services tailored just for you. We're services tailored just for you. We're getting these customized sites that I getting these customized sites that I getting these customized sites that I think are wonderful. You get the weather think are wonderful. You get the weather think are wonderful. You get the weather right where you are. They'll send you right where you are. They'll send you right where you are. They'll send you news you want to hear, travel news you want to hear, travel news you want to hear, travel information you want to know. And so information you want to know. And so information you want to know. And so you're willing to give them what they're you're willing to give them what they're you're willing to give them what they're asking for in the way of information. So asking for in the way of information. So asking for in the way of information. So the more they know about you, the better the more they know about you, the better the more they know about you, the better they can serve you. And that's one of they can serve you. And that's one of they can serve you. And that's one of the great benefits of this information the great benefits of this information the great benefits of this information age. It um works extremely well if you age. It um works extremely well if you age. It um works extremely well if you can trust the company you're sharing the can trust the company you're sharing the can trust the company you're sharing the information with. In the 21st century, information with. In the 21st century, information with. In the 21st century, information is currency. Information is

information is currency. Information is information is currency. Information is money. money. money. >> Michael Sailor is CEO of Micro Strategy, >> Michael Sailor is CEO of Micro Strategy, >> Michael Sailor is CEO of Micro Strategy, which creates so-called data mining which creates so-called data mining which creates so-called data mining software. As the name implies, it digs software. As the name implies, it digs software. As the name implies, it digs through mountains of raw information, through mountains of raw information, through mountains of raw information, searching for valuable nuggets. searching for valuable nuggets. searching for valuable nuggets. >> So, what we've done is made it possible >> So, what we've done is made it possible >> So, what we've done is made it possible for the computer to look out for your for the computer to look out for your for the computer to look out for your interest. So, here goes. interest. So, here goes. interest. So, here goes. >> So, in a product being tested now, give >> So, in a product being tested now, give >> So, in a product being tested now, give Micro Strategy your travel plans. Get an Micro Strategy your travel plans. Get an Micro Strategy your travel plans. Get an automatic alert on your computer or even automatic alert on your computer or even automatic alert on your computer or even your cell phone if something goes wrong. your cell phone if something goes wrong. your cell phone if something goes wrong. >> Your flight 225 from DC to Boston has >> Your flight 225 from DC to Boston has >> Your flight 225 from DC to Boston has been cancelled. To change your been cancelled. To change your been cancelled. To change your reservation, press one. reservation, press one. reservation, press one. >> Micro Strategy stock has soared to a >> Micro Strategy stock has soared to a >> Micro Strategy stock has soared to a market value of more than $3 billion market value of more than $3 billion market value of more than $3 billion because such personalized services are because such personalized services are because such personalized services are seen as the wave of the future and seen as the wave of the future and seen as the wave of the future and because of Michael Sailor's almost because of Michael Sailor's almost because of Michael Sailor's almost evangelical zeal. If you give me your evangelical zeal. If you give me your evangelical zeal. If you give me your medical history, I can give you more medical history, I can give you more medical history, I can give you more life. If you tell me what books you life. If you tell me what books you life. If you tell me what books you read, I can guarantee you you will never read, I can guarantee you you will never read, I can guarantee you you will never read the wrong book. And if you tell me read the wrong book. And if you tell me read the wrong book. And if you tell me what plan you're booked on, I can what plan you're booked on, I can what plan you're booked on, I can guarantee you you won't show up 2 hours guarantee you you won't show up 2 hours guarantee you you won't show up 2 hours early to the airport. It's a trade. You early to the airport. It's a trade. You early to the airport. It's a trade. You give, you get.

give, you get. give, you get. >> Problem is, right now, millions of >> Problem is, right now, millions of >> Problem is, right now, millions of consumers are giving huge amounts of consumers are giving huge amounts of consumers are giving huge amounts of information on the internet without information on the internet without information on the internet without knowing exactly who's getting it or how knowing exactly who's getting it or how knowing exactly who's getting it or how it'll be used. you show us. it'll be used. you show us. it'll be used. you show us. >> That's especially true if they frequent >> That's especially true if they frequent >> That's especially true if they frequent chat rooms or the open forums called chat rooms or the open forums called chat rooms or the open forums called newsgroups. newsgroups. newsgroups. >> This is a service called deja.com >> This is a service called deja.com >> This is a service called deja.com >> and they keep track of uh and build >> and they keep track of uh and build >> and they keep track of uh and build archives of all the news group archives of all the news group archives of all the news group discussions. Including in these discussions. Including in these discussions. Including in these discussions are people who are talking discussions are people who are talking discussions are people who are talking about health, emotional problems, about health, emotional problems, about health, emotional problems, everything else out there. everything else out there. everything else out there. >> And they just keep a file and by person >> And they just keep a file and by person >> And they just keep a file and by person >> they build something called posting >> they build something called posting >> they build something called posting histories. So here's an example. Here's histories. So here's an example. Here's histories. So here's an example. Here's someone who is writing about teenage someone who is writing about teenage someone who is writing about teenage depression. So for the rest of this depression. So for the rest of this depression. So for the rest of this person's life, this post is now there person's life, this post is now there person's life, this post is now there >> and I can read everything they said on >> and I can read everything they said on >> and I can read everything they said on the subject. the subject. the subject. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Even if it's a confession of their own >> Even if it's a confession of their own >> Even if it's a confession of their own problems. problems. problems. >> Exactly. Um do you think I should tell >> Exactly. Um do you think I should tell >> Exactly. Um do you think I should tell my mom I need to go to the doctor for my mom I need to go to the doctor for my mom I need to go to the doctor for medication? I've been feeling This is medication? I've been feeling This is medication? I've been feeling This is the discussion. the discussion. the discussion. >> However, without revealing the name I'm >> However, without revealing the name I'm >> However, without revealing the name I'm reading, it looks like a handle to me.

reading, it looks like a handle to me. reading, it looks like a handle to me. >> Well, the handle is used, but if you >> Well, the handle is used, but if you >> Well, the handle is used, but if you look at the actual email address, the look at the actual email address, the look at the actual email address, the email address is the name. I see. Okay. email address is the name. I see. Okay. email address is the name. I see. Okay. >> And it turns out to be very easy to >> And it turns out to be very easy to >> And it turns out to be very easy to associate that associate that associate that >> something like 30 million people have >> something like 30 million people have >> something like 30 million people have participated and have therefore left participated and have therefore left participated and have therefore left permanent records in internet forums permanent records in internet forums permanent records in internet forums like these. like these. like these. >> And so here is someone who's talking >> And so here is someone who's talking >> And so here is someone who's talking about cancer and menopause about cancer and menopause about cancer and menopause >> and her name's right there. >> and her name's right there. >> and her name's right there. >> Let's say this woman applies for a job. >> Let's say this woman applies for a job. >> Let's say this woman applies for a job. Can that employer do a check right now Can that employer do a check right now Can that employer do a check right now today and get the information that you today and get the information that you today and get the information that you and I just read? and I just read? and I just read? >> Yes, it is being done today. >> Yes, it is being done today. >> Yes, it is being done today. >> In fact, employers doing background >> In fact, employers doing background >> In fact, employers doing background checks can go to any of a number of checks can go to any of a number of checks can go to any of a number of online data supermarkets and with just a online data supermarkets and with just a online data supermarkets and with just a few clicks of the mouse get all sorts of few clicks of the mouse get all sorts of few clicks of the mouse get all sorts of information about your physical and information about your physical and information about your physical and financial condition. financial condition. financial condition. >> The fact that we have no barriers or no >> The fact that we have no barriers or no >> The fact that we have no barriers or no rules on who gets access to this data rules on who gets access to this data rules on who gets access to this data leads to some of the privacy problems. leads to some of the privacy problems. leads to some of the privacy problems. There really aren't any rules other than There really aren't any rules other than There really aren't any rules other than a new law protecting children's privacy a new law protecting children's privacy a new law protecting children's privacy online. It's a freeforall out there online. It's a freeforall out there online. It's a freeforall out there because internet companies have fiercely because internet companies have fiercely because internet companies have fiercely opposed government regulation. Instead, opposed government regulation. Instead, opposed government regulation. Instead, they've embraced voluntary programs like they've embraced voluntary programs like they've embraced voluntary programs like Trustee, which is a kind of Good Trustee, which is a kind of Good Trustee, which is a kind of Good Housekeeping seal of approval for Housekeeping seal of approval for Housekeeping seal of approval for internet privacy. But all it really does internet privacy. But all it really does internet privacy. But all it really does is tell consumers that a website has a is tell consumers that a website has a is tell consumers that a website has a privacy policy and how to find it. When privacy policy and how to find it. When privacy policy and how to find it. When you see that trustee seal, that alone you see that trustee seal, that alone you see that trustee seal, that alone does not guarantee that your privacy

does not guarantee that your privacy does not guarantee that your privacy will be protected. Is that correct? will be protected. Is that correct? will be protected. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> That seal does not mean that that >> That seal does not mean that that >> That seal does not mean that that company is not sharing or selling the company is not sharing or selling the company is not sharing or selling the information to someone else. information to someone else. information to someone else. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> The internet companies that underwrite >> The internet companies that underwrite >> The internet companies that underwrite her program are not going to be happy to her program are not going to be happy to her program are not going to be happy to hear this, but Lorie Fina is ready to hear this, but Lorie Fina is ready to hear this, but Lorie Fina is ready to admit that self-regulation like Trustee admit that self-regulation like Trustee admit that self-regulation like Trustee E just isn't enough. We don't have E just isn't enough. We don't have E just isn't enough. We don't have systems in place beyond the voluntary systems in place beyond the voluntary systems in place beyond the voluntary system. So what happens for all of the system. So what happens for all of the system. So what happens for all of the companies that don't choose to volunteer companies that don't choose to volunteer companies that don't choose to volunteer to give notice, consent, access, and to give notice, consent, access, and to give notice, consent, access, and redress? redress? redress? There is no safety net there. There is no safety net there. There is no safety net there. >> Michael Sailor, whose company stands to >> Michael Sailor, whose company stands to >> Michael Sailor, whose company stands to make billions from personal information make billions from personal information make billions from personal information about all of us, says even he's ready about all of us, says even he's ready about all of us, says even he's ready for the government to step in. for the government to step in. for the government to step in. >> If I was Henry Ford and you were to say >> If I was Henry Ford and you were to say >> If I was Henry Ford and you were to say to me, Henry, what do you think about to me, Henry, what do you think about to me, Henry, what do you think about government regulation of the automobile government regulation of the automobile government regulation of the automobile business? I would say I'm the I'm in business? I would say I'm the I'm in business? I would say I'm the I'm in totally in favor of speed limits, uh, totally in favor of speed limits, uh, totally in favor of speed limits, uh, stop signs. These things are going to stop signs. These things are going to stop signs. These things are going to make people more comfortable on the make people more comfortable on the make people more comfortable on the highway. And if they like driving on the highway. And if they like driving on the highway. And if they like driving on the highway, they're going to buy more of my highway, they're going to buy more of my highway, they're going to buy more of my cars. So, I'm I'm not against cars. So, I'm I'm not against cars. So, I'm I'm not against enlightened government regulation. I enlightened government regulation. I enlightened government regulation. I think that the government needs to get think that the government needs to get think that the government needs to get very very educated on what's going on in very very educated on what's going on in very very educated on what's going on in the internet, and they need to make the the internet, and they need to make the the internet, and they need to make the internet a safe place for people to go.

internet a safe place for people to go. internet a safe place for people to go. >> Meanwhile, in this unsafe cyber world, >> Meanwhile, in this unsafe cyber world, >> Meanwhile, in this unsafe cyber world, new privacy technology may be a wary new privacy technology may be a wary new privacy technology may be a wary consumer's best protection. Austin Hills consumer's best protection. Austin Hills consumer's best protection. Austin Hills company has a product called Freedom company has a product called Freedom company has a product called Freedom that lets consumers create up to five that lets consumers create up to five that lets consumers create up to five different aliases, all untraceable. different aliases, all untraceable. different aliases, all untraceable. >> So let's say I wanted to um create an >> So let's say I wanted to um create an >> So let's say I wanted to um create an identity just to find out health identity just to find out health identity just to find out health information. information. information. >> So one of the identities you would >> So one of the identities you would >> So one of the identities you would create would be let's pick a name. create would be let's pick a name. create would be let's pick a name. >> All right. Uh Carol Cardio. >> All right. Uh Carol Cardio. >> All right. Uh Carol Cardio. >> Okay. Carol Cardio is your handle. Would >> Okay. Carol Cardio is your handle. Would >> Okay. Carol Cardio is your handle. Would your company know that Carol Cardio is your company know that Carol Cardio is your company know that Carol Cardio is really Leslie Stall? really Leslie Stall? really Leslie Stall? >> No. That's part of the concept. >> No. That's part of the concept. >> No. That's part of the concept. >> You wouldn't know the handles that I'm >> You wouldn't know the handles that I'm >> You wouldn't know the handles that I'm choosing either? choosing either? choosing either? >> No. And we don't want to be in a >> No. And we don't want to be in a >> No. And we don't want to be in a position where people are forced to position where people are forced to position where people are forced to trust us. trust us. trust us. >> Michael Sailor believes that e companies >> Michael Sailor believes that e companies >> Michael Sailor believes that e companies must earn people's trust by stopping all must earn people's trust by stopping all must earn people's trust by stopping all the snooping and tracking, starting to the snooping and tracking, starting to the snooping and tracking, starting to ask for permission to gather information ask for permission to gather information ask for permission to gather information and explaining how they plan to use it.

and explaining how they plan to use it. and explaining how they plan to use it. We need to offer people a reason for We need to offer people a reason for We need to offer people a reason for them to give that personal information. them to give that personal information. them to give that personal information. Like if I promise to call you if your Like if I promise to call you if your Like if I promise to call you if your daughter checks in the emergency room at daughter checks in the emergency room at daughter checks in the emergency room at midnight, you might give me your midnight, you might give me your midnight, you might give me your daughter's social security number. daughter's social security number. daughter's social security number. >> Yes. But here's the fear. You don't tell >> Yes. But here's the fear. You don't tell >> Yes. But here's the fear. You don't tell me that you're then going to sell that me that you're then going to sell that me that you're then going to sell that information to someone else and and even information to someone else and and even information to someone else and and even you don't know what they're going to use you don't know what they're going to use you don't know what they're going to use it for. Now there is the problem. it for. Now there is the problem. it for. Now there is the problem. >> In time, these internet data collectors >> In time, these internet data collectors >> In time, these internet data collectors will realize they are just like banks. A will realize they are just like banks. A will realize they are just like banks. A bank only exists because its deposiitos, bank only exists because its deposiitos, bank only exists because its deposiitos, the people with the money, with the the people with the money, with the the people with the money, with the data, they trust the bank. But if the data, they trust the bank. But if the data, they trust the bank. But if the bank violates the trust of the bank violates the trust of the bank violates the trust of the deposiitos, there's going to be a run on deposiitos, there's going to be a run on deposiitos, there's going to be a run on that bank and it's going to collapse. that bank and it's going to collapse. that bank and it's going to collapse. >> Data bankers beware. Today, when >> Data bankers beware. Today, when >> Data bankers beware. Today, when internet surfers come across one of internet surfers come across one of internet surfers come across one of these tell me everything registration these tell me everything registration these tell me everything registration forms, 50% just turn around and leave. forms, 50% just turn around and leave. forms, 50% just turn around and leave. Another 25% fill out the form, but lie Another 25% fill out the form, but lie Another 25% fill out the form, but lie about who they are. about who they are. about who they are. Early this summer, the Federal Trade Early this summer, the Federal Trade Early this summer, the Federal Trade Commission reversed course and proposed Commission reversed course and proposed Commission reversed course and proposed tough new laws to protect privacy tough new laws to protect privacy tough new laws to protect privacy online. Internet companies are now online. Internet companies are now online. Internet companies are now trying to head off that legislation by trying to head off that legislation by trying to head off that legislation by proposing yet another self-p policing proposing yet another self-p policing proposing yet another self-p policing initiative. It's unclear when or whether initiative. It's unclear when or whether initiative. It's unclear when or whether Congress will act. At the same time, the Congress will act. At the same time, the Congress will act. At the same time, the FTC and at least two states have FTC and at least two states have FTC and at least two states have launched investigations into the launched investigations into the launched investigations into the information gathering practices of information gathering practices of information gathering practices of Doubleclick.

Once upon a time, not too long ago, a Once upon a time, not too long ago, a kingdom called cyberspace was men's kingdom called cyberspace was men's kingdom called cyberspace was men's country. Men searching and surfing, boys country. Men searching and surfing, boys country. Men searching and surfing, boys of all ages playing games. And no wonder of all ages playing games. And no wonder of all ages playing games. And no wonder it was created by men for men. But then it was created by men for men. But then it was created by men for men. But then women began to get interested. women began to get interested. women began to get interested. What women began to get interested in What women began to get interested in What women began to get interested in was shopping online. So much so that now was shopping online. So much so that now was shopping online. So much so that now we're seeing a feminizing of the we're seeing a feminizing of the we're seeing a feminizing of the internet. Not just with online stores, internet. Not just with online stores, internet. Not just with online stores, but with new.com websites designed but with new.com websites designed but with new.com websites designed specifically for women. The most specifically for women. The most specifically for women. The most successful of these is ivillage.com successful of these is ivillage.com successful of these is ivillage.com founded four years ago by Nancy Evans founded four years ago by Nancy Evans founded four years ago by Nancy Evans and Candace Carpenter. and Candace Carpenter. and Candace Carpenter. >> When did you first realize that women >> When did you first realize that women >> When did you first realize that women were really beginning to flood onto the were really beginning to flood onto the were really beginning to flood onto the internet? Candace, internet? Candace, internet? Candace, >> actually it was about a year ago that >> actually it was about a year ago that >> actually it was about a year ago that you really could feel the critical mass. you really could feel the critical mass. you really could feel the critical mass. I think that's when it got over 40% of I think that's when it got over 40% of I think that's when it got over 40% of the audience became women. And when we the audience became women. And when we the audience became women. And when we started, it was 8%. So that was a huge started, it was 8%. So that was a huge started, it was 8%. So that was a huge difference. difference. difference. >> Now, it's estimated that as many as 50 >> Now, it's estimated that as many as 50 >> Now, it's estimated that as many as 50 million more women will come online in million more women will come online in million more women will come online in the next year. In fact, they're already the next year. In fact, they're already the next year. In fact, they're already driving ecommerce, shopping online at driving ecommerce, shopping online at driving ecommerce, shopping online at twice the rate of men.

twice the rate of men. twice the rate of men. >> I think the thing that we're so excited >> I think the thing that we're so excited >> I think the thing that we're so excited about is we have the most valuable about is we have the most valuable about is we have the most valuable audience. Women do 80% of all the audience. Women do 80% of all the audience. Women do 80% of all the spending. One thing we do very well and spending. One thing we do very well and spending. One thing we do very well and 70% of all advertising is directed to 70% of all advertising is directed to 70% of all advertising is directed to women. women. women. >> Every time you click on a website, >> Every time you click on a website, >> Every time you click on a website, you're providing valuable information on you're providing valuable information on you're providing valuable information on your tastes. Information which is your tastes. Information which is your tastes. Information which is tabulated because millions of women tabulated because millions of women tabulated because millions of women click onto I village. Other companies click onto I village. Other companies click onto I village. Other companies are coming to them for that tabulated are coming to them for that tabulated are coming to them for that tabulated information and to have access to the information and to have access to the information and to have access to the women themselves. It's a whole new way women themselves. It's a whole new way women themselves. It's a whole new way of doing market research. of doing market research. of doing market research. >> What companies are are coming to you and >> What companies are are coming to you and >> What companies are are coming to you and doing it? doing it? doing it? >> Well, Ford Motor Company found out that >> Well, Ford Motor Company found out that >> Well, Ford Motor Company found out that 60% of their cars were being bought by 60% of their cars were being bought by 60% of their cars were being bought by women. So, they decided, we'll go to I women. So, they decided, we'll go to I women. So, they decided, we'll go to I Village. That's where, you know, there's Village. That's where, you know, there's Village. That's where, you know, there's more than 7 million women aggregated more than 7 million women aggregated more than 7 million women aggregated there. And we're going to go there, not there. And we're going to go there, not there. And we're going to go there, not to sell them cars. We're going to go to to sell them cars. We're going to go to to sell them cars. We're going to go to I Village to ask women, what do you want I Village to ask women, what do you want I Village to ask women, what do you want in a car? Are you sick and tired of seat in a car? Are you sick and tired of seat in a car? Are you sick and tired of seat belts that strangle you because they've belts that strangle you because they've belts that strangle you because they've been made for men? Are you sick and been made for men? Are you sick and been made for men? Are you sick and tired of not having, you know, cup tired of not having, you know, cup tired of not having, you know, cup dispensers that don't fit things? And dispensers that don't fit things? And dispensers that don't fit things? And women, thousands of them have come in to women, thousands of them have come in to women, thousands of them have come in to answer that question for Ford.

answer that question for Ford. answer that question for Ford. >> Everything we do with our sponsors >> Everything we do with our sponsors >> Everything we do with our sponsors really is a chance to listen to women really is a chance to listen to women really is a chance to listen to women and a chance to have an interaction. We and a chance to have an interaction. We and a chance to have an interaction. We do overnight polls that are as do overnight polls that are as do overnight polls that are as significant as research that costs significant as research that costs significant as research that costs millions of dollars. Uh, our membership millions of dollars. Uh, our membership millions of dollars. Uh, our membership is so used to talking to us, talking is so used to talking to us, talking is so used to talking to us, talking back, that they will answer all kinds of back, that they will answer all kinds of back, that they will answer all kinds of questions. questions like, "How should a questions. questions like, "How should a questions. questions like, "How should a website for women be designed?" That's website for women be designed?" That's website for women be designed?" That's how Carpenter and Evans discovered that how Carpenter and Evans discovered that how Carpenter and Evans discovered that unlike men, women do not like to surf unlike men, women do not like to surf unlike men, women do not like to surf and search. They don't like to play and search. They don't like to play and search. They don't like to play around. For them, the computer is an around. For them, the computer is an around. For them, the computer is an appliance, a timesaver. appliance, a timesaver. appliance, a timesaver. >> Women do not like any of those whizzy >> Women do not like any of those whizzy >> Women do not like any of those whizzy bang things that you see on the bang things that you see on the bang things that you see on the internet, things that are blinking, internet, things that are blinking, internet, things that are blinking, flashing. Ask any woman. She goes, "Get flashing. Ask any woman. She goes, "Get flashing. Ask any woman. She goes, "Get that out of my face. I do not want that out of my face. I do not want that out of my face. I do not want that." Anything that takes too long to that." Anything that takes too long to that." Anything that takes too long to download, a woman will be tapping her download, a woman will be tapping her download, a woman will be tapping her foot and be out of there. She wants to foot and be out of there. She wants to foot and be out of there. She wants to get something done and get out. get something done and get out. get something done and get out. >> When I Village asked, "What do you want >> When I Village asked, "What do you want >> When I Village asked, "What do you want us to offer you?" us to offer you?" us to offer you?" >> The answer came back, "Help us >> The answer came back, "Help us >> The answer came back, "Help us communicate with each other." communicate with each other." communicate with each other." >> I Villages 1500 message boards and 800 >> I Villages 1500 message boards and 800 >> I Villages 1500 message boards and 800 chats a month have become the heart of chats a month have become the heart of chats a month have become the heart of the business.

the business. the business. >> We are in a chat room right now. >> We are in a chat room right now. >> We are in a chat room right now. >> Leslie, hello. >> Leslie, hello. >> Leslie, hello. >> Oh my gosh. Leslie, this is you now. The >> Oh my gosh. Leslie, this is you now. The >> Oh my gosh. Leslie, this is you now. The chats are the reason I village has chats are the reason I village has chats are the reason I village has brought so many women into the tent. And brought so many women into the tent. And brought so many women into the tent. And once inside, of course, it can sell them once inside, of course, it can sell them once inside, of course, it can sell them things. things. things. >> At the site, you're bombarded with one >> At the site, you're bombarded with one >> At the site, you're bombarded with one ad after the next. ad after the next. ad after the next. >> Have you turned a profit? So many of >> Have you turned a profit? So many of >> Have you turned a profit? So many of these websites have not, these websites have not, these websites have not, >> right? You know, we haven't and we >> right? You know, we haven't and we >> right? You know, we haven't and we shouldn't have yet. And if you look, shouldn't have yet. And if you look, shouldn't have yet. And if you look, we're like a cable network, a magazine. we're like a cable network, a magazine. we're like a cable network, a magazine. It takes there are certain number of It takes there are certain number of It takes there are certain number of years and we're right on track. In five years and we're right on track. In five years and we're right on track. In five years, she says, i Village should be years, she says, i Village should be years, she says, i Village should be making money from market research, making money from market research, making money from market research, advertising, a percentage of every sale advertising, a percentage of every sale advertising, a percentage of every sale made on the site, and sales of their own made on the site, and sales of their own made on the site, and sales of their own products. Wall Street agreed. When I products. Wall Street agreed. When I products. Wall Street agreed. When I Village went public last March, it was Village went public last March, it was Village went public last March, it was instantly worth more than $2 billion. instantly worth more than $2 billion. instantly worth more than $2 billion. >> Oh, look, all these people saying hello >> Oh, look, all these people saying hello >> Oh, look, all these people saying hello to me. Chats range from politics to how to me. Chats range from politics to how to me. Chats range from politics to how to get stains out. From starting a new to get stains out. From starting a new to get stains out. From starting a new business to finding a good fertility business to finding a good fertility business to finding a good fertility doctor. Do you use the computer doctor. Do you use the computer doctor. Do you use the computer differently differently differently than your than your than your husband's?

husband's? husband's? Yes. I use it to make friends. My Yes. I use it to make friends. My Yes. I use it to make friends. My husband just checks the Yankee score. I husband just checks the Yankee score. I husband just checks the Yankee score. I mean that isn't isn't that one of the mean that isn't isn't that one of the mean that isn't isn't that one of the more remarkable things that this is this more remarkable things that this is this more remarkable things that this is this is all is all is all >> this was created by men and now women >> this was created by men and now women >> this was created by men and now women have have have come into it humanized this place and come into it humanized this place and come into it humanized this place and are using it for a completely different are using it for a completely different are using it for a completely different reason than than it was invented for. reason than than it was invented for. reason than than it was invented for. They've just made it their own. They've just made it their own. They've just made it their own. >> Women may be humanizing the web and I >> Women may be humanizing the web and I >> Women may be humanizing the web and I village may be run by women but only up village may be run by women but only up village may be run by women but only up to a point. In the back room the to a point. In the back room the to a point. In the back room the computer wizes are young men. This is computer wizes are young men. This is computer wizes are young men. This is typical, says Anita Borg, who heads the typical, says Anita Borg, who heads the typical, says Anita Borg, who heads the Institute for Women and Technology at Institute for Women and Technology at Institute for Women and Technology at Xerox. Xerox. Xerox. >> At this point, most of the people >> At this point, most of the people >> At this point, most of the people involved in the real technical careers involved in the real technical careers involved in the real technical careers come from a very narrow slice of the come from a very narrow slice of the come from a very narrow slice of the population. They tend to be male. They population. They tend to be male. They population. They tend to be male. They tend to be white. They tend to be tend to be white. They tend to be tend to be white. They tend to be relatively young. And when you think of relatively young. And when you think of relatively young. And when you think of that's a a narrow stripe for everybody, that's a a narrow stripe for everybody, that's a a narrow stripe for everybody, and they're really defining what our and they're really defining what our and they're really defining what our future is going to look like. future is going to look like. future is going to look like. >> Dr. Borg fears that if the high-tech >> Dr. Borg fears that if the high-tech >> Dr. Borg fears that if the high-tech workforce continues to look anything workforce continues to look anything workforce continues to look anything like the past, for example, like this like the past, for example, like this like the past, for example, like this Hall of Fame wall at the engineering Hall of Fame wall at the engineering Hall of Fame wall at the engineering department of Purdue University, women's department of Purdue University, women's department of Purdue University, women's needs will not be taken into account needs will not be taken into account needs will not be taken into account anytime soon.

anytime soon. anytime soon. >> A stunning statistic. The number of >> A stunning statistic. The number of >> A stunning statistic. The number of women in college majoring in computer women in college majoring in computer women in college majoring in computer science is actually going down. The peak science is actually going down. The peak science is actually going down. The peak of women getting degrees in computer of women getting degrees in computer of women getting degrees in computer science was in about 1984. In 84, about science was in about 1984. In 84, about science was in about 1984. In 84, about 37% of the undergraduate degrees in 37% of the undergraduate degrees in 37% of the undergraduate degrees in computer science and computer computer science and computer computer science and computer engineering were female. It's down below engineering were female. It's down below engineering were female. It's down below 20%. Now, the problem comes at a time 20%. Now, the problem comes at a time 20%. Now, the problem comes at a time when technology companies are facing when technology companies are facing when technology companies are facing such a severe shortage of computer such a severe shortage of computer such a severe shortage of computer scientists, they're recruiting in scientists, they're recruiting in scientists, they're recruiting in foreign countries. The Department of foreign countries. The Department of foreign countries. The Department of Commerce predicts the US will need over Commerce predicts the US will need over Commerce predicts the US will need over 1 million computer engineers, systems 1 million computer engineers, systems 1 million computer engineers, systems analysts, and programmers in the next 6 analysts, and programmers in the next 6 analysts, and programmers in the next 6 years. If women and minorities had years. If women and minorities had years. If women and minorities had studied computing at the same rate as studied computing at the same rate as studied computing at the same rate as men starting in about 1984, there would be no workforce shortage. there would be no workforce shortage. The numbers almost match perfectly.

The numbers almost match perfectly. The numbers almost match perfectly. >> Okay. So, what's happened >> Okay. So, what's happened >> Okay. So, what's happened >> these days? >> these days? >> these days? Young women decide very early on that Young women decide very early on that Young women decide very early on that that's not what they want to be like. that's not what they want to be like. that's not what they want to be like. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> the nerd thing. >> the nerd thing. >> the nerd thing. >> The nerd thing. But the nerd thing is >> The nerd thing. But the nerd thing is >> The nerd thing. But the nerd thing is just a stereotype. It's not reality. And just a stereotype. It's not reality. And just a stereotype. It's not reality. And that's what the that's what the problem that's what the that's what the problem that's what the that's what the problem is. is. is. >> You know what I can't figure out is why >> You know what I can't figure out is why >> You know what I can't figure out is why the nerd image hasn't become the most the nerd image hasn't become the most the nerd image hasn't become the most attractive image when kids read and find attractive image when kids read and find attractive image when kids read and find out that a nerd three years out of out that a nerd three years out of out that a nerd three years out of college can be worth $200 million. Well, college can be worth $200 million. Well, college can be worth $200 million. Well, you know, the what this study says is you know, the what this study says is you know, the what this study says is that young women are as interested in that young women are as interested in that young women are as interested in the impact of what they do as they are the impact of what they do as they are the impact of what they do as they are in how much money they make. in how much money they make. in how much money they make. >> To deal with the image problem, last >> To deal with the image problem, last >> To deal with the image problem, last summer, Douglas, the women's college at summer, Douglas, the women's college at summer, Douglas, the women's college at Ruters in New Jersey, invited 24 Girl Ruters in New Jersey, invited 24 Girl Ruters in New Jersey, invited 24 Girl Scouts from around the country to take a Scouts from around the country to take a Scouts from around the country to take a course designed to get them interested course designed to get them interested course designed to get them interested in technology as a career. Feel in technology as a career. Feel in technology as a career. Feel free to take anything apart that you free to take anything apart that you free to take anything apart that you want to. If you want to pull things out, want to. If you want to pull things out, want to. If you want to pull things out, the only thing I ask is if you pull the only thing I ask is if you pull the only thing I ask is if you pull something out, put it back in.

something out, put it back in. something out, put it back in. >> The girls took computers apart. >> The girls took computers apart. >> The girls took computers apart. >> The next thing I want you to find is the >> The next thing I want you to find is the >> The next thing I want you to find is the RAM. RAM. RAM. >> How do you expect us to put it back? >> And got them back together again. >> And got them back together again. >> We only have a couple extra pieces. >> We only have a couple extra pieces. >> We only have a couple extra pieces. >> Don't worry about it. >> Don't worry about it. >> Don't worry about it. >> And wires. >> And wires. >> And wires. >> We're going to work on a programming >> We're going to work on a programming >> We're going to work on a programming exercise. They learned about the exercise. They learned about the exercise. They learned about the pitfalls of bad programming when they pitfalls of bad programming when they pitfalls of bad programming when they had to write a program for making a had to write a program for making a had to write a program for making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. One peanut butter and jelly sandwich. One peanut butter and jelly sandwich. One slip up and you could end up with slip up and you could end up with slip up and you could end up with something really yucky like jelly on something really yucky like jelly on something really yucky like jelly on both sides of the bread. both sides of the bread. both sides of the bread. >> But a computer is completely stupid and >> But a computer is completely stupid and >> But a computer is completely stupid and it'll follow the instructions exactly. it'll follow the instructions exactly. it'll follow the instructions exactly. >> You had no clue. The purpose of the >> You had no clue. The purpose of the >> You had no clue. The purpose of the exercise was to show that in the right exercise was to show that in the right exercise was to show that in the right setting, girls can be just as setting, girls can be just as setting, girls can be just as enthusiastic about computers as boys and enthusiastic about computers as boys and enthusiastic about computers as boys and can learn to be just as technically can learn to be just as technically can learn to be just as technically proficient. From this work with the Girl proficient. From this work with the Girl proficient. From this work with the Girl Scouts, there seems to be an idea float Scouts, there seems to be an idea float Scouts, there seems to be an idea float that girls and boys should be educated that girls and boys should be educated that girls and boys should be educated separately when it comes to technology.

separately when it comes to technology. separately when it comes to technology. That when girls are in an environment That when girls are in an environment That when girls are in an environment where they're having fun and don't feel where they're having fun and don't feel where they're having fun and don't feel challenged and threatened by the boys, challenged and threatened by the boys, challenged and threatened by the boys, they do better. I don't know whether they do better. I don't know whether they do better. I don't know whether that's the right solution in the long that's the right solution in the long that's the right solution in the long run, but it seems to make a difference run, but it seems to make a difference run, but it seems to make a difference now. You know, there's an age at which now. You know, there's an age at which now. You know, there's an age at which which boys are elbowing girls off of which boys are elbowing girls off of which boys are elbowing girls off of things and the girls back off. Suddenly, things and the girls back off. Suddenly, things and the girls back off. Suddenly, when you set it up so that doesn't when you set it up so that doesn't when you set it up so that doesn't happen, girls participate at exactly the happen, girls participate at exactly the happen, girls participate at exactly the same rate that boys do. same rate that boys do. same rate that boys do. >> Just click here. >> Just click here. >> Just click here. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> To my surface. >> To my surface. >> To my surface. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But what if you set it up right from the >> But what if you set it up right from the >> But what if you set it up right from the beginning? Edith Harell, founder of beginning? Edith Harell, founder of beginning? Edith Harell, founder of mamdia.com, mamdia.com, mamdia.com, is trying to prove that you can create is trying to prove that you can create is trying to prove that you can create learning games that little girls will learning games that little girls will learning games that little girls will love. She's building an internet love. She's building an internet love. She's building an internet playground for the clicker. Kids growing playground for the clicker. Kids growing playground for the clicker. Kids growing up with the internet and our future up with the internet and our future up with the internet and our future workforce. workforce. workforce. >> Boys, we know they love to play with >> Boys, we know they love to play with >> Boys, we know they love to play with construction kits and take air construction kits and take air construction kits and take air conditions apart. But girls are not very conditions apart. But girls are not very conditions apart. But girls are not very attracted to air conditions. But we give attracted to air conditions. But we give attracted to air conditions. But we give them something really similar only them something really similar only them something really similar only digital here. So they can pick up digital here. So they can pick up digital here. So they can pick up different kinds of really funky gadgets different kinds of really funky gadgets different kinds of really funky gadgets and suddenly their imagination goes wild and suddenly their imagination goes wild and suddenly their imagination goes wild and they tell you stories for hours and and they tell you stories for hours and and they tell you stories for hours and then I think you'll find your then I think you'll find your then I think you'll find your >> every month a million children under the >> every month a million children under the >> every month a million children under the age of 12 are logging on to Mama Media.

age of 12 are logging on to Mama Media. age of 12 are logging on to Mama Media. Using the same technological polling Using the same technological polling Using the same technological polling that I Village does, Harell has the that I Village does, Harell has the that I Village does, Harell has the chance to find out exactly what kids chance to find out exactly what kids chance to find out exactly what kids like, boys and girls. Studies have shown like, boys and girls. Studies have shown like, boys and girls. Studies have shown that girls make up their minds about that girls make up their minds about that girls make up their minds about whether they like the computer by third whether they like the computer by third whether they like the computer by third grade. Harel says that if girls find grade. Harel says that if girls find grade. Harel says that if girls find their interaction with computers fun, their interaction with computers fun, their interaction with computers fun, they will be more inclined, as boys are, they will be more inclined, as boys are, they will be more inclined, as boys are, to think about technology as a career. to think about technology as a career. to think about technology as a career. One thing for sure is that if you give One thing for sure is that if you give One thing for sure is that if you give them equal access to technology from a them equal access to technology from a them equal access to technology from a very young age, you will see that very young age, you will see that very young age, you will see that they're passionate about learning and they're passionate about learning and they're passionate about learning and playing with technology in the same way. playing with technology in the same way. playing with technology in the same way. Both of them think that learning and Both of them think that learning and Both of them think that learning and playing with technology is cool. playing with technology is cool. playing with technology is cool. >> No one is more devoted to making >> No one is more devoted to making >> No one is more devoted to making technology cool for women than Anita technology cool for women than Anita technology cool for women than Anita Borg. when we're doing our brainstorming Borg. when we're doing our brainstorming Borg. when we're doing our brainstorming and thinking up ideas. and thinking up ideas. and thinking up ideas. >> She used to be a top computer scientist >> She used to be a top computer scientist >> She used to be a top computer scientist at Digital Equipment Corporation. Now at Digital Equipment Corporation. Now at Digital Equipment Corporation. Now she spends all her time at Xerox trying she spends all her time at Xerox trying she spends all her time at Xerox trying to bring more women into the field.

to bring more women into the field. to bring more women into the field. >> This is meant to be an a little bit of >> This is meant to be an a little bit of >> This is meant to be an a little bit of an exploration to expand thinking a an exploration to expand thinking a an exploration to expand thinking a little bit. What she's doing is holding little bit. What she's doing is holding little bit. What she's doing is holding workshops like this one where technical workshops like this one where technical workshops like this one where technical and non-technical women sit around in and non-technical women sit around in and non-technical women sit around in small circles and brainstorm about what small circles and brainstorm about what small circles and brainstorm about what they want future technology to do for they want future technology to do for they want future technology to do for them. them. them. >> Scanner kind of thing when you just scan >> Scanner kind of thing when you just scan >> Scanner kind of thing when you just scan the person's head or something like that the person's head or something like that the person's head or something like that and then you know what kind of symptom and then you know what kind of symptom and then you know what kind of symptom this person have. For example, I have this person have. For example, I have this person have. For example, I have like or allergy. like or allergy. like or allergy. >> I think I'd like also to have more voice >> I think I'd like also to have more voice >> I think I'd like also to have more voice activated activated activated um systems for the home for you to say um systems for the home for you to say um systems for the home for you to say than the lights. So you say turn on the than the lights. So you say turn on the than the lights. So you say turn on the oven. oven. oven. >> I'm going to have an implant. >> I'm going to have an implant. >> I'm going to have an implant. >> So that in the morning when I get up, >> So that in the morning when I get up, >> So that in the morning when I get up, it's going to say you've had too much it's going to say you've had too much it's going to say you've had too much cheesecake. You thought you thought cheesecake. You thought you thought cheesecake. You thought you thought three miles would be good. Keep going. three miles would be good. Keep going. three miles would be good. Keep going. >> It's going to hurt the field for us not >> It's going to hurt the field for us not >> It's going to hurt the field for us not to be there. It's going to hurt the to be there. It's going to hurt the to be there. It's going to hurt the output of what we create. Women bring output of what we create. Women bring output of what we create. Women bring richness and different perspectives and richness and different perspectives and richness and different perspectives and shifts in everything from priorities to shifts in everything from priorities to shifts in everything from priorities to the actual way they look at the thing the actual way they look at the thing the actual way they look at the thing they're going to create.

they're going to create. they're going to create. >> We had a woman say to us, "Now, do you >> We had a woman say to us, "Now, do you >> We had a woman say to us, "Now, do you think that a woman would have created think that a woman would have created think that a woman would have created the mammogram machine the way it is the mammogram machine the way it is the mammogram machine the way it is now?" now?" now?" >> You know, it just brings it right home. >> You know, it just brings it right home. >> You know, it just brings it right home. >> Absolutely. And >> Absolutely. And >> Absolutely. And >> that's the whole point. She says >> that's the whole point. She says >> that's the whole point. She says >> if companies have women designing those >> if companies have women designing those >> if companies have women designing those pro products, those technical products, pro products, those technical products, pro products, those technical products, then it's more likely that they're going then it's more likely that they're going then it's more likely that they're going to be able to appeal to that huge to be able to appeal to that huge to be able to appeal to that huge women's market. women's market. women's market. >> They're just figuring this out. >> They're just figuring this out. >> They're just figuring this out. >> Some of them are starting to figure it >> Some of them are starting to figure it >> Some of them are starting to figure it out. out. out. A small postcript, Evelyn Lee, who A small postcript, Evelyn Lee, who A small postcript, Evelyn Lee, who produced that story, now works for I produced that story, now works for I produced that story, now works for I Village. According to the National Security According to the National Security Agency, more than a 100 governments now Agency, more than a 100 governments now Agency, more than a 100 governments now have the ability to access, attack, and have the ability to access, attack, and have the ability to access, attack, and potentially disable America's computers. potentially disable America's computers. potentially disable America's computers. The White House National Security The White House National Security The White House National Security Adviser, Sandy Burger, says, "We're not Adviser, Sandy Burger, says, "We're not Adviser, Sandy Burger, says, "We're not talking about 17-year-old kids in their talking about 17-year-old kids in their talking about 17-year-old kids in their basement. We're talking about basement. We're talking about basement. We're talking about governments." Everything that makes this governments." Everything that makes this governments." Everything that makes this country run, electric power, oil country run, electric power, oil country run, electric power, oil refineries, the phone system, air refineries, the phone system, air refineries, the phone system, air traffic control, the stock market are traffic control, the stock market are traffic control, the stock market are all dependent upon computer systems.

all dependent upon computer systems. all dependent upon computer systems. systems that more and more are interlin systems that more and more are interlin systems that more and more are interlin and vulnerable to intruders through the and vulnerable to intruders through the and vulnerable to intruders through the internet. Now, the nation's top military internet. Now, the nation's top military internet. Now, the nation's top military leaders are asking, "What happens if leaders are asking, "What happens if leaders are asking, "What happens if someone with a laptop in Afghanistan or someone with a laptop in Afghanistan or someone with a laptop in Afghanistan or Beijing uses it as a weapon in a cyber Beijing uses it as a weapon in a cyber Beijing uses it as a weapon in a cyber war, causing chaos and disruption war, causing chaos and disruption war, causing chaos and disruption without ever setting foot in the United without ever setting foot in the United without ever setting foot in the United States States States in a restricted zone inside the Sandia in a restricted zone inside the Sandia in a restricted zone inside the Sandia National Laboratory in California, National Laboratory in California, National Laboratory in California, attacking computers and figuring out how attacking computers and figuring out how attacking computers and figuring out how to defend against attacks is the work of to defend against attacks is the work of to defend against attacks is the work of an experimental cyber team. Average age, an experimental cyber team. Average age, an experimental cyber team. Average age, 19." There's 19." There's 19." There's >> Oh, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got >> Oh, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got >> Oh, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. it. it. >> A blank line in a password file. >> A blank line in a password file. >> A blank line in a password file. >> I got it. >> I got it. >> I got it. >> We asked them to show us what a computer >> We asked them to show us what a computer >> We asked them to show us what a computer attack looks like. The intruder has attack looks like. The intruder has attack looks like. The intruder has found the password, broken into the found the password, broken into the found the password, broken into the computer, and hijacked it to launch the computer, and hijacked it to launch the computer, and hijacked it to launch the same kind of an attack that crippled same kind of an attack that crippled same kind of an attack that crippled Yahoo and eBay earlier this year. Yahoo and eBay earlier this year. Yahoo and eBay earlier this year. >> I'm flooding the ports. >> I'm flooding the ports. >> I'm flooding the ports. >> From breakin to shutting down the system >> From breakin to shutting down the system >> From breakin to shutting down the system took less than one minute. Just imagine took less than one minute. Just imagine took less than one minute. Just imagine if everything electrical stopped in a if everything electrical stopped in a if everything electrical stopped in a large part of the United States.

large part of the United States. large part of the United States. >> Senator John Kyle from Arizona was one >> Senator John Kyle from Arizona was one >> Senator John Kyle from Arizona was one of the first on Capitol Hill to of the first on Capitol Hill to of the first on Capitol Hill to recognize that the more wired the United recognize that the more wired the United recognize that the more wired the United States becomes, the more vulnerable it States becomes, the more vulnerable it States becomes, the more vulnerable it becomes as a cyber war target. becomes as a cyber war target. becomes as a cyber war target. >> Our power grid now consists of a series >> Our power grid now consists of a series >> Our power grid now consists of a series of computerized switches that transfer of computerized switches that transfer of computerized switches that transfer power all over the country from the power all over the country from the power all over the country from the source of its generation to where it's source of its generation to where it's source of its generation to where it's needed. If those switches are interfered needed. If those switches are interfered needed. If those switches are interfered with, and they can be interfered with as with, and they can be interfered with as with, and they can be interfered with as a result of this kind of hacking into a result of this kind of hacking into a result of this kind of hacking into the computers that regulate them, then the computers that regulate them, then the computers that regulate them, then that power can be shut off or can be that power can be shut off or can be that power can be shut off or can be sent to the wrong place, resulting in sent to the wrong place, resulting in sent to the wrong place, resulting in blackouts. blackouts. blackouts. According to the President's Commission According to the President's Commission According to the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection, on Critical Infrastructure Protection, on Critical Infrastructure Protection, the right command sent to a power the right command sent to a power the right command sent to a power station control computer, could be just station control computer, could be just station control computer, could be just as devastating as a backpack full of as devastating as a backpack full of as devastating as a backpack full of explosives. explosives. explosives. >> What would that command be? In theory, >> What would that command be? In theory, >> What would that command be? In theory, if you could assume control of the if you could assume control of the if you could assume control of the network and pretend to be the systems network and pretend to be the systems network and pretend to be the systems administrator, you could have it do administrator, you could have it do administrator, you could have it do anything for you. anything for you. anything for you. >> Richard Clark is the White House >> Richard Clark is the White House >> Richard Clark is the White House coordinator for security, infrastructure coordinator for security, infrastructure coordinator for security, infrastructure protection, and counterterrorism.

protection, and counterterrorism. protection, and counterterrorism. >> Let me project a possibility in the >> Let me project a possibility in the >> Let me project a possibility in the future. What if one morning we're told future. What if one morning we're told future. What if one morning we're told by the drug cartel in Colombia, either by the drug cartel in Colombia, either by the drug cartel in Colombia, either the United States pulls out of Colombia, the United States pulls out of Colombia, the United States pulls out of Colombia, either the United States stops killing either the United States stops killing either the United States stops killing the cocaine plants the cocaine plants the cocaine plants or else there'll be an information or else there'll be an information or else there'll be an information warfare attack on Houston. warfare attack on Houston. warfare attack on Houston. >> Information warfare is just another way >> Information warfare is just another way >> Information warfare is just another way of saying cyber war. One weak spot is of saying cyber war. One weak spot is of saying cyber war. One weak spot is the increased reliance at refineries, the increased reliance at refineries, the increased reliance at refineries, power plants, and water systems on power plants, and water systems on power plants, and water systems on something called SCADA, supervisory something called SCADA, supervisory something called SCADA, supervisory control, and data acquisition systems. control, and data acquisition systems. control, and data acquisition systems. These centralized control systems make These centralized control systems make These centralized control systems make it easier to cause serious damage and it easier to cause serious damage and it easier to cause serious damage and disruption by shutting down water flow disruption by shutting down water flow disruption by shutting down water flow to New York City, for example, or to New York City, for example, or to New York City, for example, or starting refinery fires in Texas from a starting refinery fires in Texas from a starting refinery fires in Texas from a laptop halfway around the world. Instead laptop halfway around the world. Instead laptop halfway around the world. Instead of using cruise missiles and bombs as of using cruise missiles and bombs as of using cruise missiles and bombs as NATO did in Serbia in cyber war, you use NATO did in Serbia in cyber war, you use NATO did in Serbia in cyber war, you use cyber attack, but they could have the cyber attack, but they could have the cyber attack, but they could have the same effect. same effect. same effect. >> What are the advantages and what are the >> What are the advantages and what are the >> What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

disadvantages? disadvantages? >> I think people assume that one advantage >> I think people assume that one advantage >> I think people assume that one advantage could be anonymity could be anonymity could be anonymity that an attack might occur and you that an attack might occur and you that an attack might occur and you wouldn't know who did it. If you're wouldn't know who did it. If you're wouldn't know who did it. If you're going to do a cyber attack, you could do going to do a cyber attack, you could do going to do a cyber attack, you could do it from the other side of the earth. it from the other side of the earth. it from the other side of the earth. This is the Pentagon's Global Network This is the Pentagon's Global Network This is the Pentagon's Global Network Operations Center at the Defense Operations Center at the Defense Operations Center at the Defense Information Systems Agency. Information Systems Agency. Information Systems Agency. Here, US military personnel deliberately Here, US military personnel deliberately Here, US military personnel deliberately attack and penetrate defense computers attack and penetrate defense computers attack and penetrate defense computers to test the system, and they succeed to test the system, and they succeed to test the system, and they succeed more than half the time. They also track more than half the time. They also track more than half the time. They also track intruders probing Pentagon computers. intruders probing Pentagon computers. intruders probing Pentagon computers. General John Campbell runs the General John Campbell runs the General John Campbell runs the Pentagon's Joint Task Force on Computer Pentagon's Joint Task Force on Computer Pentagon's Joint Task Force on Computer Network Defense. Network Defense. Network Defense. >> How often do you see somebody trying to >> How often do you see somebody trying to >> How often do you see somebody trying to get in? Uh last year in u uh 1999 uh we get in? Uh last year in u uh 1999 uh we get in? Uh last year in u uh 1999 uh we saw about 22,000 incidents that were saw about 22,000 incidents that were saw about 22,000 incidents that were reported up to uh us to our level. reported up to uh us to our level. reported up to uh us to our level. That's up from about 5,000 in 1998. That's up from about 5,000 in 1998. That's up from about 5,000 in 1998. >> General Campbell told us that three >> General Campbell told us that three >> General Campbell told us that three years ago in a cyber war exercise called years ago in a cyber war exercise called years ago in a cyber war exercise called eligible receiver, the Pentagon's red eligible receiver, the Pentagon's red eligible receiver, the Pentagon's red team using what any hacker could find on team using what any hacker could find on team using what any hacker could find on the internet was able in theory to knock the internet was able in theory to knock the internet was able in theory to knock out power in Los Angeles, Chicago, out power in Los Angeles, Chicago, out power in Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, and New York. The team was Washington, and New York. The team was Washington, and New York. The team was authorized to probe 40,000 Pentagon authorized to probe 40,000 Pentagon authorized to probe 40,000 Pentagon systems. It broke into 4,000 of them, systems. It broke into 4,000 of them, systems. It broke into 4,000 of them, actually disrupting some military actually disrupting some military actually disrupting some military activities.

activities. activities. >> What kind of systems did they get into >> What kind of systems did they get into >> What kind of systems did they get into and what would have been the and what would have been the and what would have been the consequences? consequences? consequences? >> They uh uh were able to get into >> They uh uh were able to get into >> They uh uh were able to get into virtually the full range of the uh of virtually the full range of the uh of virtually the full range of the uh of the systems. Well, as an example, the the systems. Well, as an example, the the systems. Well, as an example, the systems we use to send email uh both are systems we use to send email uh both are systems we use to send email uh both are unclassified email and and with some unclassified email and and with some unclassified email and and with some with some simulations, even the systems with some simulations, even the systems with some simulations, even the systems that send that send classified email. In that send that send classified email. In that send that send classified email. In one case, the hackers uh or the red team one case, the hackers uh or the red team one case, the hackers uh or the red team uh actually change the content of a uh actually change the content of a uh actually change the content of a message from an order to execute an message from an order to execute an message from an order to execute an activity to an order to not to execute activity to an order to not to execute activity to an order to not to execute that activity. that activity. that activity. >> So, it's a pretty important >> So, it's a pretty important >> So, it's a pretty important communication. communication. communication. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. If the Russians >> Absolutely. Absolutely. If the Russians >> Absolutely. Absolutely. If the Russians or the Chinese or some other potential or the Chinese or some other potential or the Chinese or some other potential adversary were actually trying to get in adversary were actually trying to get in adversary were actually trying to get in and mount an attack, would you know and mount an attack, would you know and mount an attack, would you know about it? I I don't think we would about it? I I don't think we would about it? I I don't think we would necessarily know about it. necessarily know about it. necessarily know about it. >> Before the internet, this was the >> Before the internet, this was the >> Before the internet, this was the nation's ultimate sanctuary inside nation's ultimate sanctuary inside nation's ultimate sanctuary inside Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. 40 years Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. 40 years Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. 40 years ago, the Pentagon began blasting away ago, the Pentagon began blasting away ago, the Pentagon began blasting away 700,000 tons of granite in order to 700,000 tons of granite in order to 700,000 tons of granite in order to protect the military's top nuclear protect the military's top nuclear protect the military's top nuclear command from enemy attack.

command from enemy attack. command from enemy attack. These steel doors can withstand a 30 These steel doors can withstand a 30 These steel doors can withstand a 30 megaton blast, but in a cyber war, they megaton blast, but in a cyber war, they megaton blast, but in a cyber war, they won't protect the military's computers. won't protect the military's computers. won't protect the military's computers. Even the Pentagon's most secure Even the Pentagon's most secure Even the Pentagon's most secure classified computer system, which has no classified computer system, which has no classified computer system, which has no links to the internet, was invaded last links to the internet, was invaded last links to the internet, was invaded last year by a virus transferred into the year by a virus transferred into the year by a virus transferred into the system from a disc on a laptop. system from a disc on a laptop. system from a disc on a laptop. Admiral Herbert Brown, Deputy Commander Admiral Herbert Brown, Deputy Commander Admiral Herbert Brown, Deputy Commander of Space Command in charge of cyber of Space Command in charge of cyber of Space Command in charge of cyber warfare, says his job has been to warfare, says his job has been to warfare, says his job has been to prevent a cyberspace Pearl Harbor. prevent a cyberspace Pearl Harbor. prevent a cyberspace Pearl Harbor. >> How many countries have the capability, >> How many countries have the capability, >> How many countries have the capability, do you think, to wage cyber warfare do you think, to wage cyber warfare do you think, to wage cyber warfare against the United States? against the United States? against the United States? >> Virtually any country that has a >> Virtually any country that has a >> Virtually any country that has a computer has an opportunity to enter computer has an opportunity to enter computer has an opportunity to enter into into cyerspace and and be into into cyerspace and and be into into cyerspace and and be disruptive. You talk to any number of disruptive. You talk to any number of disruptive. You talk to any number of people who say it it it's possible to people who say it it it's possible to people who say it it it's possible to bring down a power grid with a computer. bring down a power grid with a computer. bring down a power grid with a computer. Do you think it's really possible to do Do you think it's really possible to do Do you think it's really possible to do some of these things? Do you believe some of these things? Do you believe some of these things? Do you believe that the vulnerabilities that they're that the vulnerabilities that they're that the vulnerabilities that they're exposing are real? exposing are real? exposing are real? >> It's absolutely real. Let me give you a >> It's absolutely real. Let me give you a >> It's absolutely real. Let me give you a quick example. I drive a 1961 Corvette.

quick example. I drive a 1961 Corvette. quick example. I drive a 1961 Corvette. I've never had a computer problem in I've never had a computer problem in I've never had a computer problem in that car. It always runs. My wife drives that car. It always runs. My wife drives that car. It always runs. My wife drives a new automobile that's got a computer a new automobile that's got a computer a new automobile that's got a computer system in it that's a big pain in the system in it that's a big pain in the system in it that's a big pain in the rear. And it's because a computer chip rear. And it's because a computer chip rear. And it's because a computer chip or something, one little chip brings or something, one little chip brings or something, one little chip brings that wonderful automobile to a complete that wonderful automobile to a complete that wonderful automobile to a complete standstill. So why would you think that standstill. So why would you think that standstill. So why would you think that this uh that a grid that's dependent this uh that a grid that's dependent this uh that a grid that's dependent upon computers wouldn't be like that upon computers wouldn't be like that upon computers wouldn't be like that automobile? I mean certainly it it is it automobile? I mean certainly it it is it automobile? I mean certainly it it is it is not this is not theory. This is very is not this is not theory. This is very is not this is not theory. This is very real. >> One country concentrating on cyber war >> One country concentrating on cyber war is China. It's already sparring in is China. It's already sparring in is China. It's already sparring in cyberspace with Taiwan. Just last month, cyberspace with Taiwan. Just last month, cyberspace with Taiwan. Just last month, the Chinese Army Daily warned perhaps the Chinese Army Daily warned perhaps the Chinese Army Daily warned perhaps one day people will wake up in the one day people will wake up in the one day people will wake up in the morning to find out all the phone morning to find out all the phone morning to find out all the phone systems are down, computers hacked by systems are down, computers hacked by systems are down, computers hacked by viruses, the state treasury being viruses, the state treasury being viruses, the state treasury being emptied. emptied. emptied. >> We think that the Chinese probably have >> We think that the Chinese probably have >> We think that the Chinese probably have the biggest program uh from the the biggest program uh from the the biggest program uh from the standpoint of being able to attack uh standpoint of being able to attack uh standpoint of being able to attack uh our uh infrastructure. our uh infrastructure. our uh infrastructure. >> Bill Triplet is a senior staffer on >> Bill Triplet is a senior staffer on >> Bill Triplet is a senior staffer on Capitol Hill monitoring cyber warfare Capitol Hill monitoring cyber warfare Capitol Hill monitoring cyber warfare and a specialist on the Chinese and a specialist on the Chinese and a specialist on the Chinese military. What makes you so sure that military. What makes you so sure that military. What makes you so sure that the Chinese are really interested in the Chinese are really interested in the Chinese are really interested in using cyber war as a or adding cyber war using cyber war as a or adding cyber war using cyber war as a or adding cyber war to their arsenal?

to their arsenal? to their arsenal? >> It's inexpensive and it's a way to to >> It's inexpensive and it's a way to to >> It's inexpensive and it's a way to to get serious bang for the buck. get serious bang for the buck. get serious bang for the buck. >> US forces which invented cyber warfare >> US forces which invented cyber warfare >> US forces which invented cyber warfare have already fought computer battles have already fought computer battles have already fought computer battles against the Serbs. The chairman of the against the Serbs. The chairman of the against the Serbs. The chairman of the joint chiefs says the US launched a joint chiefs says the US launched a joint chiefs says the US launched a successful information warfare attack to successful information warfare attack to successful information warfare attack to confuse and disable the Yugoslav air confuse and disable the Yugoslav air confuse and disable the Yugoslav air defense system. They inserted false defense system. They inserted false defense system. They inserted false messages in targets to protect NATO messages in targets to protect NATO messages in targets to protect NATO aircraft. One US official disclosed that aircraft. One US official disclosed that aircraft. One US official disclosed that President Mallosvich's friends were President Mallosvich's friends were President Mallosvich's friends were targeted for harassment. And after targeted for harassment. And after targeted for harassment. And after President Clinton issued a finding, the President Clinton issued a finding, the President Clinton issued a finding, the CIA was instructed to wage a cyber war CIA was instructed to wage a cyber war CIA was instructed to wage a cyber war against Mallosvich himself. against Mallosvich himself. against Mallosvich himself. There have been reports that the United There have been reports that the United There have been reports that the United States or NATO um States or NATO um States or NATO um got into Mallosvich's bank accounts. got into Mallosvich's bank accounts. got into Mallosvich's bank accounts. Neither move money or threaten to move Neither move money or threaten to move Neither move money or threaten to move money. money. money. >> I've heard this report. >> I've heard this report. >> I've heard this report. >> You can neither confirm nor deny. >> You can neither confirm nor deny. >> You can neither confirm nor deny. >> I neither confirm nor deny. >> I neither confirm nor deny. >> I neither confirm nor deny. >> That answer in the smile seems to be >> That answer in the smile seems to be >> That answer in the smile seems to be saying there's something here.

saying there's something here. saying there's something here. >> Let's put it this way. Look at what >> Let's put it this way. Look at what >> Let's put it this way. Look at what happened that we went after his army and happened that we went after his army and happened that we went after his army and we got nowhere. I mean, at the end of we got nowhere. I mean, at the end of we got nowhere. I mean, at the end of the war, all of the tanks paraded out the war, all of the tanks paraded out the war, all of the tanks paraded out and we didn't hit the tanks. We then and we didn't hit the tanks. We then and we didn't hit the tanks. We then started going after quote civilian started going after quote civilian started going after quote civilian infrastructure, but you're dealing with infrastructure, but you're dealing with infrastructure, but you're dealing with a a dictator that who is very similar uh a a dictator that who is very similar uh a a dictator that who is very similar uh to Saddam Hussein in the sense that he to Saddam Hussein in the sense that he to Saddam Hussein in the sense that he doesn't care what happens to his own doesn't care what happens to his own doesn't care what happens to his own people. And then all of a sudden, people. And then all of a sudden, people. And then all of a sudden, somebody came to visit him and the next somebody came to visit him and the next somebody came to visit him and the next day he quit. Now, what is it that we day he quit. Now, what is it that we day he quit. Now, what is it that we could do to him as opposed to his could do to him as opposed to his could do to him as opposed to his people, which he doesn't care about, people, which he doesn't care about, people, which he doesn't care about, that in fact would make him think twice? that in fact would make him think twice? that in fact would make him think twice? >> Freeze his bank accounts. >> Freeze his bank accounts. >> Freeze his bank accounts. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Or take the money or threaten to. >> Or take the money or threaten to. >> Or take the money or threaten to. >> Did it happen? >> Did it happen? >> Did it happen? >> Can't tell you. >> Can't tell you. >> Can't tell you. >> Because you don't know or because you're >> Because you don't know or because you're >> Because you don't know or because you're not allowed to say. not allowed to say. not allowed to say. >> If I answered that question, then you >> If I answered that question, then you >> If I answered that question, then you would know. would know. would know. >> For a year now, the Pentagon has been >> For a year now, the Pentagon has been >> For a year now, the Pentagon has been picking up probes into sensitive defense picking up probes into sensitive defense picking up probes into sensitive defense computers coming from Russia. Code name computers coming from Russia. Code name computers coming from Russia. Code name Moonlight Maze. Some regard it as Moonlight Maze. Some regard it as Moonlight Maze. Some regard it as Russian espionage. Others say it's Russian espionage. Others say it's Russian espionage. Others say it's impossible to tell. Russia may just be impossible to tell. Russia may just be impossible to tell. Russia may just be the last stop in someone else's hacker the last stop in someone else's hacker the last stop in someone else's hacker trail. The White House is watching trail. The White House is watching trail. The White House is watching closely. I think what's going on right closely. I think what's going on right closely. I think what's going on right now uh throughout the world is cyber war now uh throughout the world is cyber war now uh throughout the world is cyber war reconnaissance reconnaissance reconnaissance where many nations half dozen at least where many nations half dozen at least where many nations half dozen at least are scanning each other's networks to are scanning each other's networks to are scanning each other's networks to get a good map of where the key things get a good map of where the key things get a good map of where the key things are and what the key vulnerabilities are

are and what the key vulnerabilities are are and what the key vulnerabilities are of those networks. So you might think of of those networks. So you might think of of those networks. So you might think of it as pre-war reconnaissance. it as pre-war reconnaissance. it as pre-war reconnaissance. >> Are there systems you can't get into or >> Are there systems you can't get into or >> Are there systems you can't get into or can you get into most? You can get into can you get into most? You can get into can you get into most? You can get into any system. There's always a way. any system. There's always a way. any system. There's always a way. >> Jeff Fay is a top hacker who now works >> Jeff Fay is a top hacker who now works >> Jeff Fay is a top hacker who now works for Infrastructure Defense, an adviser for Infrastructure Defense, an adviser for Infrastructure Defense, an adviser to the National Security Agency. He to the National Security Agency. He to the National Security Agency. He breaks into networks in order to protect breaks into networks in order to protect breaks into networks in order to protect them. them. them. >> Most systems I I can find a >> Most systems I I can find a >> Most systems I I can find a vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability 30 minutes tops. 30 minutes tops. 30 minutes tops. >> So if this is my office computer and you >> So if this is my office computer and you >> So if this is my office computer and you want to get into my office computer, want to get into my office computer, want to get into my office computer, you're already in. you're already in. you're already in. >> Exactly. And >> Exactly. And >> Exactly. And >> and you can move around the CBS network >> and you can move around the CBS network >> and you can move around the CBS network without me knowing about it. without me knowing about it. without me knowing about it. >> Exactly. this information alone. I can >> Exactly. this information alone. I can >> Exactly. this information alone. I can take this and I can start cracking the take this and I can start cracking the take this and I can start cracking the encrypted passwords and get your encrypted passwords and get your encrypted passwords and get your original password back. And I can original password back. And I can original password back. And I can usually do this within 24 hours. I'll usually do this within 24 hours. I'll usually do this within 24 hours. I'll have all of the passwords here. have all of the passwords here. have all of the passwords here. >> You do it yourself or you send it out >> You do it yourself or you send it out >> You do it yourself or you send it out someplace? someplace? someplace? >> I actually have another software tool >> I actually have another software tool >> I actually have another software tool that'll break it automatically. He says that'll break it automatically. He says that'll break it automatically. He says the Pentagon may be just as vulnerable the Pentagon may be just as vulnerable the Pentagon may be just as vulnerable now as it was three years ago when its now as it was three years ago when its now as it was three years ago when its red team hackers in exercise eligible red team hackers in exercise eligible red team hackers in exercise eligible receiver were so successful that they receiver were so successful that they receiver were so successful that they actually managed to disrupt operations actually managed to disrupt operations actually managed to disrupt operations of the Pacific Fleet.

of the Pacific Fleet. of the Pacific Fleet. >> In eligible receiver, the red team got >> In eligible receiver, the red team got >> In eligible receiver, the red team got into 4,000 into 4,000 into 4,000 sites out of 40,000. sites out of 40,000. sites out of 40,000. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> U possible to do better than that? >> U possible to do better than that? >> U possible to do better than that? >> Yes. Yes. Um >> Yes. Yes. Um >> Yes. Yes. Um >> even today, a few years later? >> even today, a few years later? >> even today, a few years later? >> Yes. uh probably more so today. I think >> Yes. uh probably more so today. I think >> Yes. uh probably more so today. I think that computers in computer networks in that computers in computer networks in that computers in computer networks in general are becoming less secure as general are becoming less secure as general are becoming less secure as opposed to more secure. opposed to more secure. opposed to more secure. >> Why do you say that? >> Why do you say that? >> Why do you say that? >> Uh you have so many different choices >> Uh you have so many different choices >> Uh you have so many different choices now of ways of breaking in. And so you now of ways of breaking in. And so you now of ways of breaking in. And so you scan a 100,000 machines. Well, you go scan a 100,000 machines. Well, you go scan a 100,000 machines. Well, you go off on vacation, you come back and you off on vacation, you come back and you off on vacation, you come back and you look and you have a nice graphical look and you have a nice graphical look and you have a nice graphical report of all the systems you broke into report of all the systems you broke into report of all the systems you broke into was completely automated. You didn't was completely automated. You didn't was completely automated. You didn't even have to sit there and do anything even have to sit there and do anything even have to sit there and do anything except click on the start button. except click on the start button. except click on the start button. >> Fay and others say the air traffic >> Fay and others say the air traffic >> Fay and others say the air traffic control system is also a problem. Radar control system is also a problem. Radar control system is also a problem. Radar images can be changed. Planes can be images can be changed. Planes can be images can be changed. Planes can be erased from the screens and false data erased from the screens and false data erased from the screens and false data inserted in the National Weather Service inserted in the National Weather Service inserted in the National Weather Service could confuse and misdirect pilots could confuse and misdirect pilots could confuse and misdirect pilots causing chaos in the air.

causing chaos in the air. causing chaos in the air. >> A lot of people do look on all of this >> A lot of people do look on all of this >> A lot of people do look on all of this as science fiction. Uh and it's very as science fiction. Uh and it's very as science fiction. Uh and it's very much reality today. Uh it is something much reality today. Uh it is something much reality today. Uh it is something that could happen in terms of a state that could happen in terms of a state that could happen in terms of a state attack. Uh that could happen today. attack. Uh that could happen today. attack. Uh that could happen today. >> And Clark and the White House say it's a >> And Clark and the White House say it's a >> And Clark and the White House say it's a threat the government can't defend threat the government can't defend threat the government can't defend against all by itself. against all by itself. against all by itself. >> The owners and operators of electric >> The owners and operators of electric >> The owners and operators of electric power grids and pipelines and banks and power grids and pipelines and banks and power grids and pipelines and banks and railroads. They're the ones who have to railroads. They're the ones who have to railroads. They're the ones who have to defend our infrastructure. The defend our infrastructure. The defend our infrastructure. The government doesn't own it. The government doesn't own it. The government doesn't own it. The government doesn't operate it. The government doesn't operate it. The government doesn't operate it. The government can't defend it. This is the government can't defend it. This is the government can't defend it. This is the first time where we've had a potential first time where we've had a potential first time where we've had a potential foreign threat to the United States foreign threat to the United States foreign threat to the United States where the military can't save us. When someone at 60 Minutes, not me, but When someone at 60 Minutes, not me, but one of the old-timers asked the other one of the old-timers asked the other one of the old-timers asked the other day, "Where is cyberspace?" Andy day, "Where is cyberspace?" Andy day, "Where is cyberspace?" Andy volunteered to go find out. volunteered to go find out. volunteered to go find out. I like to be in on what's going on in I like to be in on what's going on in I like to be in on what's going on in the world. So, I decided to get on the the world. So, I decided to get on the the world. So, I decided to get on the internet. Someone sent me this disc for internet. Someone sent me this disc for internet. Someone sent me this disc for my computer. Hook up to a world of fun my computer. Hook up to a world of fun my computer. Hook up to a world of fun and excitement. It says it's fast. Just and excitement. It says it's fast. Just and excitement. It says it's fast. Just three easy steps and you're online.

three easy steps and you're online. three easy steps and you're online. Well, I was suspicious. I didn't think Well, I was suspicious. I didn't think Well, I was suspicious. I didn't think it would be as easy as they said. So, I it would be as easy as they said. So, I it would be as easy as they said. So, I asked Joe Wilmont, one of our best asked Joe Wilmont, one of our best asked Joe Wilmont, one of our best computer experts here at CVS, to help me computer experts here at CVS, to help me computer experts here at CVS, to help me get online. Mhm. get online. Mhm. get online. Mhm. >> You load it up under Microsoft Windows >> You load it up under Microsoft Windows >> You load it up under Microsoft Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 3.1 or Windows 95 3.1 or Windows 95 and uh from there you would start and uh from there you would start and uh from there you would start setting up your account once you had setting up your account once you had setting up your account once you had your modem configured correctly and and your modem configured correctly and and your modem configured correctly and and telephone lines working. telephone lines working. telephone lines working. >> Well, what do you mean modem figured >> Well, what do you mean modem figured >> Well, what do you mean modem figured configured? configured? configured? >> Well, there's um >> Well, there's um >> Well, there's um >> how do you configure a modem? >> how do you configure a modem? >> how do you configure a modem? >> Well, in in the PC there are uh these >> Well, in in the PC there are uh these >> Well, in in the PC there are uh these comport comport comport >> personal computer. >> personal computer. >> personal computer. >> What's a compport? Uh comp port is a >> What's a compport? Uh comp port is a >> What's a compport? Uh comp port is a serial port that um you use to hook your serial port that um you use to hook your serial port that um you use to hook your mouse up to an external device like a mouse up to an external device like a mouse up to an external device like a mouse or um your modem. Uh a printer mouse or um your modem. Uh a printer mouse or um your modem. Uh a printer could be hooked up to it. Um and it has could be hooked up to it. Um and it has could be hooked up to it. Um and it has certain protocols in there that you use certain protocols in there that you use certain protocols in there that you use these comports to to do certain these comports to to do certain these comports to to do certain services. services. services. >> You realize you're making sense, Joe. I >> You realize you're making sense, Joe. I >> You realize you're making sense, Joe. I mean to me, mean to me, mean to me, >> right? Uh okay. >> right? Uh okay. >> right? Uh okay. >> Now, what sort of stuff would I get on >> Now, what sort of stuff would I get on >> Now, what sort of stuff would I get on the internet if I did get on it, which I the internet if I did get on it, which I the internet if I did get on it, which I doubt?

doubt? doubt? >> Oh, you can get enormous amount of >> Oh, you can get enormous amount of >> Oh, you can get enormous amount of information. I know. But like what? information. I know. But like what? information. I know. But like what? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> recipe for chicken soup. I >> recipe for chicken soup. I >> recipe for chicken soup. I >> You can get recipes. You can you can >> You can get recipes. You can you can >> You can get recipes. You can you can make friends. You can uh make friends. You can uh make friends. You can uh >> I have my friends. >> I have my friends. >> I have my friends. >> You can uh Yeah. Start up relationships. >> You can uh Yeah. Start up relationships. >> You can uh Yeah. Start up relationships. Uh electronic. Uh electronic. Uh electronic. >> Oh, I have my relationships. >> Oh, I have my relationships. >> Oh, I have my relationships. >> If you We can go downstairs. We have the >> If you We can go downstairs. We have the >> If you We can go downstairs. We have the uh internet in house. uh internet in house. uh internet in house. >> I don't want to go downstairs. I want it >> I don't want to go downstairs. I want it >> I don't want to go downstairs. I want it here in my office. Why don't I come here in my office. Why don't I come here in my office. Why don't I come downstairs? Well, downstairs? Well, downstairs? Well, >> how I thought any average person with a >> how I thought any average person with a >> how I thought any average person with a good computer could do this. good computer could do this. good computer could do this. >> We go downstairs. What if I'm home? >> We go downstairs. What if I'm home? >> We go downstairs. What if I'm home? >> Well, Andy, the internet is still a >> Well, Andy, the internet is still a >> Well, Andy, the internet is still a house under construction. house under construction. house under construction. >> Oh, Jesus. And we're in the basement. >> Oh, Jesus. And we're in the basement. >> Oh, Jesus. And we're in the basement. >> Obviously, there were several things we >> Obviously, there were several things we >> Obviously, there were several things we needed that we didn't have. So, we went needed that we didn't have. So, we went needed that we didn't have. So, we went to a good computer store, Compusa. They to a good computer store, Compusa. They to a good computer store, Compusa. They gave us their expert, Ken Morurell. gave us their expert, Ken Morurell. gave us their expert, Ken Morurell. >> Now, if I was home alone, would I be >> Now, if I was home alone, would I be >> Now, if I was home alone, would I be able to do this myself? Do you think? able to do this myself? Do you think? able to do this myself? Do you think? >> Yeah. If you had what you really need is >> Yeah. If you had what you really need is >> Yeah. If you had what you really need is uh to know what to look for in other uh to know what to look for in other uh to know what to look for in other words. And words. And words. And >> but I don't know what to look for.

>> but I don't know what to look for. >> but I don't know what to look for. >> Well, that's it. >> Well, that's it. >> Well, that's it. >> Bingo. >> Bingo. >> Bingo. >> Oh, you got it >> Oh, you got it >> Oh, you got it >> now. We're getting there. Okay. That's >> now. We're getting there. Okay. That's >> now. We're getting there. Okay. That's the startup routine. the startup routine. the startup routine. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What's called a batch file to begin the >> What's called a batch file to begin the >> What's called a batch file to begin the program. When you have the disc in and program. When you have the disc in and program. When you have the disc in and you begin the and you turn on the you begin the and you turn on the you begin the and you turn on the computer, it reads off here. computer, it reads off here. computer, it reads off here. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If that startup program is not on here, >> If that startup program is not on here, >> If that startup program is not on here, >> what is a web again? Web page. a web >> what is a web again? Web page. a web >> what is a web again? Web page. a web page. It's a site on the internet page. It's a site on the internet page. It's a site on the internet >> that you can create your own, for >> that you can create your own, for >> that you can create your own, for example. example. example. >> I could create my own website on the >> I could create my own website on the >> I could create my own website on the internet, but I can't get into the internet, but I can't get into the internet, but I can't get into the internet. That's my problem. internet. That's my problem. internet. That's my problem. >> We're getting you there. >> We're getting you there. >> We're getting you there. >> Now, what does it want? Welcome to >> Now, what does it want? Welcome to >> Now, what does it want? Welcome to America Online. I'm in I'm on the America Online. I'm in I'm on the America Online. I'm in I'm on the internet. internet. internet. >> Well, you're you're here to log. >> Well, you're you're here to log. >> Well, you're you're here to log. >> Not yet. Huh? >> Not yet. Huh? >> Not yet. Huh? >> You're here to log. >> You're here to log. >> You're here to log. >> But it's pretty easy to get into, is it? >> But it's pretty easy to get into, is it? >> But it's pretty easy to get into, is it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Once once you get once you get up and >> Once once you get once you get up and >> Once once you get once you get up and running, running, running, >> right? When I started, a lot of you >> right? When I started, a lot of you >> right? When I started, a lot of you probably thought the internet would be probably thought the internet would be probably thought the internet would be too complicated for you. I hope I've set too complicated for you. I hope I've set too complicated for you. I hope I've set your mind at ease. I'm Leslie Stall. your mind at ease. I'm Leslie Stall. your mind at ease. I'm Leslie Stall. We'll be back next week with another We'll be back next week with another We'll be back next week with another edition of 60 Minutes.