Brokers are offering felons a path to Trump pardons — at a steep price with no guarantees

Presidents have been pardoning criminals Presidents have been pardoning criminals since George Washington. It's a since George Washington. It's a since George Washington. It's a constitutional power, no explanation constitutional power, no explanation constitutional power, no explanation needed. needed. needed. The Department of Justice does screen The Department of Justice does screen The Department of Justice does screen applicants and typically only recommends applicants and typically only recommends applicants and typically only recommends those who remorsefully seek mercy. those who remorsefully seek mercy. those who remorsefully seek mercy. But that's not always been the process. But that's not always been the process. But that's not always been the process. President Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. President Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. President Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. President Clinton, Marc Rich after President Clinton, Marc Rich after President Clinton, Marc Rich after donations. donations. donations. President Biden, his son Hunter and President Biden, his son Hunter and President Biden, his son Hunter and Anthony Fauci. Anthony Fauci. Anthony Fauci. President Trump? He's developed his own President Trump? He's developed his own President Trump? He's developed his own vetting system, pardoning political vetting system, pardoning political vetting system, pardoning political allies including all of the January 6th allies including all of the January 6th allies including all of the January 6th rioters, rioters, rioters, as well as a string of unrepentant as well as a string of unrepentant as well as a string of unrepentant financial con men who argued just like financial con men who argued just like financial con men who argued just like him that they were wrongly prosecuted. him that they were wrongly prosecuted. him that they were wrongly prosecuted. How do these people get their grievances How do these people get their grievances How do these people get their grievances in the president's ear? in the president's ear? in the president's ear? Donations appear to help. And those who Donations appear to help. And those who Donations appear to help. And those who can pay higher pardon brokers, lawyers can pay higher pardon brokers, lawyers can pay higher pardon brokers, lawyers and lobbyists who sell their ties to the and lobbyists who sell their ties to the and lobbyists who sell their ties to the president for exorbitant fees.

president for exorbitant fees. president for exorbitant fees. It's a marketplace of money and mercy. It's a marketplace of money and mercy. It's a marketplace of money and mercy. Ammon Covino was seeking a pardon. Ammon Covino was seeking a pardon. Ammon Covino was seeking a pardon. Seated is his wife Crystal and joining Seated is his wife Crystal and joining Seated is his wife Crystal and joining them at this Virginia hotel lounge are them at this Virginia hotel lounge are them at this Virginia hotel lounge are lobbyists Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman lobbyists Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman lobbyists Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman who don't know they're being recorded as who don't know they're being recorded as who don't know they're being recorded as they pitch their services as pardon they pitch their services as pardon they pitch their services as pardon brokers. brokers. brokers. >> Look, you you can't you can't just >> Look, you you can't you can't just >> Look, you you can't you can't just submit a pardon application. It doesn't submit a pardon application. It doesn't submit a pardon application. It doesn't It doesn't work that way because It doesn't work that way because It doesn't work that way because >> Ammon is a felon. >> Ammon is a felon. >> Ammon is a felon. >> Whole body tense at once. >> Whole body tense at once. >> Whole body tense at once. >> The Covinos run several zoos and >> The Covinos run several zoos and >> The Covinos run several zoos and aquariums. A decade ago he was convicted aquariums. A decade ago he was convicted aquariums. A decade ago he was convicted of illegal wildlife trafficking and of illegal wildlife trafficking and of illegal wildlife trafficking and served 23 months in prison. served 23 months in prison. served 23 months in prison. He applied for a pardon taking the He applied for a pardon taking the He applied for a pardon taking the regular route through the Justice regular route through the Justice regular route through the Justice Department. Department. Department. >> We just filled out the form. a >> We just filled out the form. a >> We just filled out the form. a >> form. >> form. >> form. >> And what happened? >> And what happened? >> And what happened? >> When the pardons came out, we were on >> When the pardons came out, we were on >> When the pardons came out, we were on the list of rejections. the list of rejections. the list of rejections. >> So, we asked him to try again the new >> So, we asked him to try again the new >> So, we asked him to try again the new way. way. way. Why? Why? Why? We had wanted to interview brokers who We had wanted to interview brokers who We had wanted to interview brokers who promised pardon seekers they can promised pardon seekers they can promised pardon seekers they can circumvent the Justice Department for a circumvent the Justice Department for a circumvent the Justice Department for a hefty fee.

hefty fee. hefty fee. What they do is not illegal, yet none What they do is not illegal, yet none What they do is not illegal, yet none would talk to us. would talk to us. would talk to us. So, we asked Ammon to engage with these So, we asked Ammon to engage with these So, we asked Ammon to engage with these access merchants as if he's reapplying access merchants as if he's reapplying access merchants as if he's reapplying for a pardon and let our cameras follow for a pardon and let our cameras follow for a pardon and let our cameras follow him. him. him. First, he emailed a dozen of these First, he emailed a dozen of these First, he emailed a dozen of these brokers. brokers. brokers. How fast did they get back to you? How fast did they get back to you? How fast did they get back to you? >> Some got right away and some within a >> Some got right away and some within a >> Some got right away and some within a day. Right away, yes, {exclamation day. Right away, yes, {exclamation day. Right away, yes, {exclamation point} {exclamation point}. We are the point} {exclamation point}. We are the point} {exclamation point}. We are the people that can help you do that. And I people that can help you do that. And I people that can help you do that. And I kept saying, this feels illegal. I I'd kept saying, this feels illegal. I I'd kept saying, this feels illegal. I I'd get on my get on my get on my AI and say, is this illegal? No, this is AI and say, is this illegal? No, this is AI and say, is this illegal? No, this is how it's done. how it's done. how it's done. But thanks for taking my call. But thanks for taking my call. But thanks for taking my call. >> Looking at our case, do you think >> Looking at our case, do you think >> Looking at our case, do you think >> In a series of phone calls, one broker >> In a series of phone calls, one broker >> In a series of phone calls, one broker after another bragged about their close after another bragged about their close after another bragged about their close relationships to President Trump's inner relationships to President Trump's inner relationships to President Trump's inner circle. circle. circle. >> Okay, thanks, guys. >> Okay, thanks, guys. >> Okay, thanks, guys. >> We are about to >> We are about to >> We are about to >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within >> This duo replied to Ammon's email within 7 minutes. 7 minutes. 7 minutes. >> We encourage everyone to act with the >> We encourage everyone to act with the >> We encourage everyone to act with the highest professionalism. highest professionalism. highest professionalism. >> Jack Burkman and Jacob Wohl are Trump >> Jack Burkman and Jacob Wohl are Trump >> Jack Burkman and Jacob Wohl are Trump loyalists with a long resume of loyalists with a long resume of loyalists with a long resume of political stunts.

political stunts. political stunts. >> Who's Who's next? Who's next? We got >> Who's Who's next? Who's next? We got >> Who's Who's next? Who's next? We got that one. Be cool. that one. Be cool. that one. Be cool. >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black >> Their robocall scheme to suppress black voting in 2020 led to a criminal voting in 2020 led to a criminal voting in 2020 led to a criminal conviction. conviction. conviction. Now in the pardons game, they claim they Now in the pardons game, they claim they Now in the pardons game, they claim they got one for this owner of a nursing home got one for this owner of a nursing home got one for this owner of a nursing home chain convicted of massive tax fraud. He chain convicted of massive tax fraud. He chain convicted of massive tax fraud. He paid them nearly a million dollars for paid them nearly a million dollars for paid them nearly a million dollars for their promise to reach the president. We their promise to reach the president. We their promise to reach the president. We found that some brokers charge as much found that some brokers charge as much found that some brokers charge as much as 3 million. as 3 million. as 3 million. So, we decided to use hidden cameras and So, we decided to use hidden cameras and So, we decided to use hidden cameras and sent the Cavinos to meet Burkman and sent the Cavinos to meet Burkman and sent the Cavinos to meet Burkman and Wohl. Wohl. Wohl. >> I don't think your pardon I don't think >> I don't think your pardon I don't think >> I don't think your pardon I don't think it'll be too difficult. it'll be too difficult. it'll be too difficult. >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon >> They said they would put Ammon's pardon plea in the hands of the president and plea in the hands of the president and plea in the hands of the president and push. push. push. >> With this particular one, you actually >> With this particular one, you actually >> With this particular one, you actually have to put pressure on the president have to put pressure on the president have to put pressure on the president from all directions in a consistent way from all directions in a consistent way from all directions in a consistent way to to to force his hand. We literally want to put force his hand. We literally want to put force his hand. We literally want to put the pen in his hand and get him to sign the pen in his hand and get him to sign the pen in his hand and get him to sign it because he's tired of hearing about it because he's tired of hearing about it because he's tired of hearing about it. it. it. >> So, when you went the regular route, how >> So, when you went the regular route, how >> So, when you went the regular route, how much did it cost you? much did it cost you? much did it cost you? >> A postage stamp.

>> A postage stamp. >> A postage stamp. >> Postage stamp. That's it. >> Postage stamp. That's it. >> Postage stamp. That's it. >> And this would cost you >> And this would cost you >> And this would cost you >> $300,000. >> $300,000. >> $300,000. >> Wha- What did you say? >> Wha- What did you say? >> Wha- What did you say? >> What's it for? And they said, "Well, we >> What's it for? And they said, "Well, we >> What's it for? And they said, "Well, we have to buy tickets have to buy tickets have to buy tickets >> go to Mar-a-Lago. We have to attend >> go to Mar-a-Lago. We have to attend >> go to Mar-a-Lago. We have to attend events that the president's at. We have events that the president's at. We have events that the president's at. We have to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a to possibly buy a $10,000 ticket to a fundraiser that the president is fundraiser that the president is fundraiser that the president is attending. attending. attending. >> They said we have to hire contractors to >> They said we have to hire contractors to >> They said we have to hire contractors to do certain things. Well, do certain things. Well, do certain things. Well, >> Influencers. >> Influencers. >> Influencers. >> Influencers that know other people that >> Influencers that know other people that >> Influencers that know other people that can put us in the vicinity of the people can put us in the vicinity of the people can put us in the vicinity of the people that can make a difference. that can make a difference. that can make a difference. >> What we do is we mobilize members of >> What we do is we mobilize members of >> What we do is we mobilize members of Congress to call here. We use certain Congress to call here. We use certain Congress to call here. We use certain influencers who have regular meetings to influencers who have regular meetings to influencers who have regular meetings to call here. And we put him in a pincer call here. And we put him in a pincer call here. And we put him in a pincer movement. [music] movement. [music] movement. [music] >> Berkman [snorts] and Woll made a similar >> Berkman [snorts] and Woll made a similar >> Berkman [snorts] and Woll made a similar pitch to Boosie Badazz, a rapper with a lengthy criminal record a rapper with a lengthy criminal record after he was convicted on a gun charge. after he was convicted on a gun charge. after he was convicted on a gun charge. >> This what I was led to believe. If you >> This what I was led to believe. If you >> This what I was led to believe. If you come with this money, come with this money, come with this money, you will get a pardon.

you will get a pardon. you will get a pardon. >> How much did you give them up front? >> How much did you give them up front? >> How much did you give them up front? >> 600K. >> 600K. >> 600K. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> We have some texts that they sent to >> We have some texts that they sent to >> We have some texts that they sent to your lawyer. This text listed the your lawyer. This text listed the your lawyer. This text listed the influential people they supposedly influential people they supposedly influential people they supposedly recruited. Laura Loomer, recruited. Laura Loomer, recruited. Laura Loomer, Erica Kirk, Erica Kirk, Erica Kirk, Mike Johnson, he's the speaker of the Mike Johnson, he's the speaker of the Mike Johnson, he's the speaker of the house. house. house. Another text, the broker mentions Another text, the broker mentions Another text, the broker mentions Natalie Harp. She's the executive Natalie Harp. She's the executive Natalie Harp. She's the executive assistant that's very close to the assistant that's very close to the assistant that's very close to the president and suggests that she's going president and suggests that she's going president and suggests that she's going to personally hand your application to to personally hand your application to to personally hand your application to the president. the president. the president. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just thought, I mean, I just thought, I mean, I just thought, I mean, this is the way it's done. I'm paying this is the way it's done. I'm paying this is the way it's done. I'm paying these guys, you know, these guys, you know, these guys, you know, and they're going to make it happen. and they're going to make it happen. and they're going to make it happen. >> They didn't make it happen. Boosie >> They didn't make it happen. Boosie >> They didn't make it happen. Boosie didn't get his pardon. As for the four didn't get his pardon. As for the four didn't get his pardon. As for the four people they claimed to know, people they claimed to know, people they claimed to know, they denied any involvement in the case. they denied any involvement in the case. they denied any involvement in the case. Boosie's contract with the brokers Boosie's contract with the brokers Boosie's contract with the brokers stipulated that if he wasn't pardoned, stipulated that if he wasn't pardoned, stipulated that if he wasn't pardoned, he'd get half his money back.

he'd get half his money back. he'd get half his money back. But they won't pay, claiming the But they won't pay, claiming the But they won't pay, claiming the contract is invalid, and denying they contract is invalid, and denying they contract is invalid, and denying they sent the text. The rapper is suing. sent the text. The rapper is suing. sent the text. The rapper is suing. >> I said, "Just return it. You didn't get >> I said, "Just return it. You didn't get >> I said, "Just return it. You didn't get my pardon. It's all It's a bunch of BS." my pardon. It's all It's a bunch of BS." my pardon. It's all It's a bunch of BS." And they were so cocky. And they were so cocky. And they were so cocky. >> There's definitely a lot of money >> There's definitely a lot of money >> There's definitely a lot of money flowing around, and that makes a flowing around, and that makes a flowing around, and that makes a uh petri dish for corruption. uh petri dish for corruption. uh petri dish for corruption. >> Law professor Mark Osler of the >> Law professor Mark Osler of the >> Law professor Mark Osler of the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota University of St. Thomas in Minnesota University of St. Thomas in Minnesota has spent the past 15 years helping has spent the past 15 years helping has spent the past 15 years helping indigent felons apply for pardons. Now, indigent felons apply for pardons. Now, indigent felons apply for pardons. Now, he says they're locked out of the he says they're locked out of the he says they're locked out of the system. system. system. >> People think, well, if I can get to this >> People think, well, if I can get to this >> People think, well, if I can get to this person who can find the president at person who can find the president at person who can find the president at Mar-a-Lago, if I can pay a million Mar-a-Lago, if I can pay a million Mar-a-Lago, if I can pay a million dollars to this friend of a White House dollars to this friend of a White House dollars to this friend of a White House counsel, then I will have a shot. And counsel, then I will have a shot. And counsel, then I will have a shot. And that is not a system. that is not a system. that is not a system. That's something different entirely. That's something different entirely. That's something different entirely. It's anarchy. It's anarchy. It's anarchy. >> And the new system, >> And the new system, >> And the new system, no expression of remorse that you know no expression of remorse that you know no expression of remorse that you know of? of? of? >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a >> Well, in fact, what seems to have been a winning tactic for some people is winning tactic for some people is winning tactic for some people is exactly the opposite. Saying, the people exactly the opposite. Saying, the people exactly the opposite. Saying, the people who were wrong were the people who who were wrong were the people who who were wrong were the people who accused me. That I have been a a victim accused me. That I have been a a victim accused me. That I have been a a victim of a weaponized uh Department of of a weaponized uh Department of of a weaponized uh Department of Justice.

Justice. Justice. >> This is a vicious group of people that >> This is a vicious group of people that >> This is a vicious group of people that were in this office before us. were in this office before us. were in this office before us. >> Berkman and Woll the Covinos to tap into >> Berkman and Woll the Covinos to tap into >> Berkman and Woll the Covinos to tap into the president's grievances and say that the president's grievances and say that the president's grievances and say that Ammon was a victim of a weaponized Ammon was a victim of a weaponized Ammon was a victim of a weaponized prosecution. prosecution. prosecution. >> It's a question of reminding the >> It's a question of reminding the >> It's a question of reminding the president this is an Obama prosecution president this is an Obama prosecution president this is an Obama prosecution that never should have happened. that never should have happened. that never should have happened. >> He told them this White House vets cases >> He told them this White House vets cases >> He told them this White House vets cases differently. differently. differently. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. >> So like Trump makes his own decisions. He relies very little on DOJ. So with He relies very little on DOJ. So with He relies very little on DOJ. So with Trump DOJ is Trump DOJ is Trump DOJ is >> It's an afterthought. >> It's an afterthought. >> It's an afterthought. >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump >> Until 9 days ago, Ed Martin, a Trump appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ appointee, ran the pardon office at DOJ where 16,000 applications are awaiting a where 16,000 applications are awaiting a where 16,000 applications are awaiting a decision. decision. decision. People pay People pay People pay $300,000, $300,000, $300,000, a million dollars, 3 million dollars to a million dollars, 3 million dollars to a million dollars, 3 million dollars to these brokers to get the application these brokers to get the application these brokers to get the application before the president. Meanwhile, all before the president. Meanwhile, all before the president. Meanwhile, all these other people that you look at at these other people that you look at at these other people that you look at at the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice, they are not getting their pardons. And they are not getting their pardons. And they are not getting their pardons. And is that a fair system?

is that a fair system? is that a fair system? >> I'm not saying I I reject your >> I'm not saying I I reject your >> I'm not saying I I reject your characterization of the system. I've not characterization of the system. I've not characterization of the system. I've not seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat seen it. I've not heard it. And I sat with a thousand people over in the last with a thousand people over in the last with a thousand people over in the last year in my office and I listened to them year in my office and I listened to them year in my office and I listened to them tell and some of them were ended up with tell and some of them were ended up with tell and some of them were ended up with clemency, some of them were pardoned. clemency, some of them were pardoned. clemency, some of them were pardoned. >> We checked about 70% of President >> We checked about 70% of President >> We checked about 70% of President Trump's clemencies in his second term Trump's clemencies in his second term Trump's clemencies in his second term have not gone through DOJ. If you have not gone through DOJ. If you have not gone through DOJ. If you include the January 6th rioters, that include the January 6th rioters, that include the January 6th rioters, that goes up to 92%. goes up to 92%. goes up to 92%. And we noticed that some pardons came And we noticed that some pardons came And we noticed that some pardons came after well-timed donations or a business after well-timed donations or a business after well-timed donations or a business deal. deal. deal. Take for example this businessman who Take for example this businessman who Take for example this businessman who was sent to prison for fraud. was sent to prison for fraud. was sent to prison for fraud. He conned investors with this video of He conned investors with this video of He conned investors with this video of the first zero emission truck driving the first zero emission truck driving the first zero emission truck driving along. It was actually a fake rolling along. It was actually a fake rolling along. It was actually a fake rolling down a hill. down a hill. down a hill. After he and his wife donated almost 2 After he and his wife donated almost 2 After he and his wife donated almost 2 million dollars to support Trump's million dollars to support Trump's million dollars to support Trump's re-election, he was pardoned. re-election, he was pardoned. re-election, he was pardoned. This This This failed to prevent money laundering on failed to prevent money laundering on failed to prevent money laundering on his crypto exchange. He was pardoned his crypto exchange. He was pardoned his crypto exchange. He was pardoned after his company Binance boosted a after his company Binance boosted a after his company Binance boosted a Trump family crypto venture, though both Trump family crypto venture, though both Trump family crypto venture, though both sides deny any connection to the pardon.

sides deny any connection to the pardon. sides deny any connection to the pardon. And this healthcare executive convicted And this healthcare executive convicted And this healthcare executive convicted of tax crimes was pardoned after his of tax crimes was pardoned after his of tax crimes was pardoned after his mother paid a million dollars to attend mother paid a million dollars to attend mother paid a million dollars to attend a Mar-a-Lago fundraiser. A pardon seeker a Mar-a-Lago fundraiser. A pardon seeker a Mar-a-Lago fundraiser. A pardon seeker going to Mar-a-Lago and joining in a going to Mar-a-Lago and joining in a going to Mar-a-Lago and joining in a fundraising event where you had to pay fundraising event where you had to pay fundraising event where you had to pay money money money and then getting a pardon. and then getting a pardon. and then getting a pardon. Why isn't that a quid pro quo? Why isn't Why isn't that a quid pro quo? Why isn't Why isn't that a quid pro quo? Why isn't that pay-to-play? that pay-to-play? that pay-to-play? >> I don't I don't know about those >> I don't I don't know about those >> I don't I don't know about those examples, but I would just say the examples, but I would just say the examples, but I would just say the prerogative, again, the presidential prerogative, again, the presidential prerogative, again, the presidential prerogative, the it's in the prerogative, the it's in the prerogative, the it's in the Constitution, it's complete, it's Constitution, it's complete, it's Constitution, it's complete, it's plenary. When people say there's plenary. When people say there's plenary. When people say there's brokers, there's quid pro quo, I've brokers, there's quid pro quo, I've brokers, there's quid pro quo, I've never seen it. I haven't seen it, I never seen it. I haven't seen it, I never seen it. I haven't seen it, I haven't heard it. haven't heard it. haven't heard it. >> Ed, >> Ed, >> Ed, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the point is they're going around you. >> the point is they're going around you. >> the point is they're going around you. >> Well, I I I >> Well, I I I >> Well, I I I >> And the whole point, they're bragging >> And the whole point, they're bragging >> And the whole point, they're bragging about going around you. about going around you. about going around you. >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence >> I I just don't I don't see any evidence of some magical brokers. I think people of some magical brokers. I think people of some magical brokers. I think people are trying to make money. are trying to make money. are trying to make money. >> So, are you saying that these brokers, >> So, are you saying that these brokers, >> So, are you saying that these brokers, they're con men? they're con men? they're con men? >> They're snake oil salesmen, they're >> They're snake oil salesmen, they're >> They're snake oil salesmen, they're swamp salesmen. What do you want What swamp salesmen. What do you want What swamp salesmen. What do you want What word do you want?

word do you want? word do you want? >> If we want to do the >> If we want to do the >> If we want to do the I think we can help you. I think we can help you. I think we can help you. >> After we notified Jack Burkman and Jacob >> After we notified Jack Burkman and Jacob >> After we notified Jack Burkman and Jacob Wohl of our hidden camera operation, Wohl of our hidden camera operation, Wohl of our hidden camera operation, >> a sting operation client, a fake client. >> a sting operation client, a fake client. >> a sting operation client, a fake client. >> A sting written by you, right? >> A sting written by you, right? >> A sting written by you, right? >> They agreed to sit down with us to >> They agreed to sit down with us to >> They agreed to sit down with us to discuss the new pardon economy. discuss the new pardon economy. discuss the new pardon economy. >> There's nothing corrupt about it, >> There's nothing corrupt about it, >> There's nothing corrupt about it, there's nothing improper about it. there's nothing improper about it. there's nothing improper about it. >> It seems that you have to have money to >> It seems that you have to have money to >> It seems that you have to have money to get a pardon these days. get a pardon these days. get a pardon these days. >> We don't work for free any more than you >> We don't work for free any more than you >> We don't work for free any more than you do, right? You're well paid for what you do, right? You're well paid for what you do, right? You're well paid for what you do, we're well paid for what I do. do, we're well paid for what I do. do, we're well paid for what I do. Navigating Washington, as you well know, Navigating Washington, as you well know, Navigating Washington, as you well know, is not an easy thing. The average is not an easy thing. The average is not an easy thing. The average person, the average rich person, they person, the average rich person, they person, the average rich person, they need help doing that. How would the need help doing that. How would the need help doing that. How would the president become aware of these cases president become aware of these cases president become aware of these cases unless some unless some unless some >> way that presidents have done it for a >> way that presidents have done it for a >> way that presidents have done it for a hundred years or hundred years or hundred years or >> Well, lobbyists have been hired for two >> Well, lobbyists have been hired for two >> Well, lobbyists have been hired for two centuries to do just that. centuries to do just that. centuries to do just that. >> gone through a system that >> gone through a system that >> gone through a system that >> weren't lobbyists working on pardons in >> weren't lobbyists working on pardons in >> weren't lobbyists working on pardons in the Obama administration, in the Biden the Obama administration, in the Biden the Obama administration, in the Biden administration? administration? administration? >> There've always been lawyers who are >> There've always been lawyers who are >> There've always been lawyers who are willing to prepare a a clemency willing to prepare a a clemency willing to prepare a a clemency petition. Um you know, often for a petition. Um you know, often for a petition. Um you know, often for a couple thousand dollars. You know, couple thousand dollars. You know, couple thousand dollars. You know, what's changed is the amount of money what's changed is the amount of money what's changed is the amount of money that that people are charging.

that that people are charging. that that people are charging. >> Professor Osler hopes the >> Professor Osler hopes the >> Professor Osler hopes the beyond repair. We have learned that the beyond repair. We have learned that the beyond repair. We have learned that the White House has become sensitive to the White House has become sensitive to the White House has become sensitive to the perception that the president is selling perception that the president is selling perception that the president is selling pardons. pardons. pardons. >> If you go that route, it's >> If you go that route, it's >> If you go that route, it's >> All the brokers warned the Cavinos to >> All the brokers warned the Cavinos to >> All the brokers warned the Cavinos to avoid donating. avoid donating. avoid donating. >> You can't blame people who want to get >> You can't blame people who want to get >> You can't blame people who want to get out of prison for doing what they're out of prison for doing what they're out of prison for doing what they're told works. told works. told works. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I can blame the people who are >> But I can blame the people who are >> But I can blame the people who are making that making that making that the system. the system. the system. >> So, it's the brokers >> So, it's the brokers >> So, it's the brokers and the lobbyists and the lawyers in and the lobbyists and the lawyers in and the lobbyists and the lawyers in this game? this game? this game? >> It's really, in the end, it falls on the >> It's really, in the end, it falls on the >> It's really, in the end, it falls on the administration. administration. administration. >> Ooh, look at that bite. >> Ooh, look at that bite. >> Ooh, look at that bite. >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy >> The Cavinos told us the pardon economy feels like cheating. feels like cheating. feels like cheating. >> It feels unfair. >> It feels unfair. >> It feels unfair. >> Feels unfair. >> Feels unfair. >> Feels unfair. >> Let's say the money was not an issue for >> Let's say the money was not an issue for >> Let's say the money was not an issue for you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you, that $300,000 was just fine. Would you do it? you do it? you do it? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. I don't like the fact that I don't like the fact that I don't like the fact that you have to pay for such an a huge you have to pay for such an a huge you have to pay for such an a huge amount of money because of who you know, amount of money because of who you know, amount of money because of who you know, but if it's if that's how the game's but if it's if that's how the game's but if it's if that's how the game's played, then played, then played, then that's how the game's played.

that's how the game's played. that's how the game's played. >> The White House told us, quote, "Anyone >> The White House told us, quote, "Anyone >> The White House told us, quote, "Anyone spending money to lobby for pardons is spending money to lobby for pardons is spending money to lobby for pardons is foolishly wasting their money." Adding, foolishly wasting their money." Adding, foolishly wasting their money." Adding, quote, "President Trump performs his quote, "President Trump performs his quote, "President Trump performs his constitutional duties in an ethically constitutional duties in an ethically constitutional duties in an ethically sound manner, and to suggest so sound manner, and to suggest so sound manner, and to suggest so otherwise is either ill-informed or otherwise is either ill-informed or otherwise is either ill-informed or malicious.