Sen. Tillis warns that without checks and balances, U.S. democracy is at risk | 60 Minutes

Is it possible to be an effective Is it possible to be an effective Republican senator in the age of Donald Republican senator in the age of Donald Republican senator in the age of Donald Trump? Someone who makes deals and Trump? Someone who makes deals and Trump? Someone who makes deals and checks the White House without becoming checks the White House without becoming checks the White House without becoming a political martyr or an ex Republican. a political martyr or an ex Republican. a political martyr or an ex Republican. This is the tightroppe that Tom Tillis, This is the tightroppe that Tom Tillis, This is the tightroppe that Tom Tillis, the senior senator from North Carolina, the senior senator from North Carolina, the senior senator from North Carolina, has been walking for the last two years. has been walking for the last two years. has been walking for the last two years. He votes like a reliable Republican He votes like a reliable Republican He votes like a reliable Republican while talking and maneuvering like a while talking and maneuvering like a while talking and maneuvering like a maverick. He's a costic critic of many maverick. He's a costic critic of many maverick. He's a costic critic of many administration officials, all while administration officials, all while administration officials, all while insisting he just wants to help the insisting he just wants to help the insisting he just wants to help the president succeed. It's been a president succeed. It's been a president succeed. It's been a fascinating performance. But now, Tillis fascinating performance. But now, Tillis fascinating performance. But now, Tillis is heading for the exits at the spritly is heading for the exits at the spritly is heading for the exits at the spritly for a senator age of 66 after crossing for a senator age of 66 after crossing for a senator age of 66 after crossing the White House one too many times. As the White House one too many times. As the White House one too many times. As his party faces a potential midterm his party faces a potential midterm his party faces a potential midterm wipeout, we talked to him about his wipeout, we talked to him about his wipeout, we talked to him about his highwire act, his relationship with highwire act, his relationship with highwire act, his relationship with President Trump, and whether it's President Trump, and whether it's President Trump, and whether it's possible to make the Senate great again. possible to make the Senate great again. possible to make the Senate great again. Around here, if you're in motion, you're Around here, if you're in motion, you're Around here, if you're in motion, you're generally ahead. And if you're not, then generally ahead. And if you're not, then generally ahead. And if you're not, then you're behind. you're behind. you're behind. >> The key here, >> The key here, >> The key here, >> keeping up with Tom Tillis on Capitol >> keeping up with Tom Tillis on Capitol >> keeping up with Tom Tillis on Capitol Hill is not for the faint of heart.

Hill is not for the faint of heart. Hill is not for the faint of heart. >> He knows the US capital inside out. the >> He knows the US capital inside out. the >> He knows the US capital inside out. the passageways, passageways, passageways, staircases, staircases, staircases, the capital subway system, and miles of the capital subway system, and miles of the capital subway system, and miles of underground corridors that connect underground corridors that connect underground corridors that connect senators offices to the capital itself. senators offices to the capital itself. senators offices to the capital itself. When reporters manage to interpose When reporters manage to interpose When reporters manage to interpose themselves, they know they can rely on themselves, they know they can rely on themselves, they know they can rely on Tillis for a sound bite. Tillis for a sound bite. Tillis for a sound bite. >> Do you think that senators even >> Do you think that senators even >> Do you think that senators even understand AI? understand AI? understand AI? >> No, a lot of them can't spell it. They >> No, a lot of them can't spell it. They >> No, a lot of them can't spell it. They uh they just don't have the experience. uh they just don't have the experience. uh they just don't have the experience. Sometimes those sound bites reflect his Sometimes those sound bites reflect his Sometimes those sound bites reflect his beefs with the White House. An beefs with the White House. An beefs with the White House. An escalating series of fights that escalating series of fights that escalating series of fights that culminated when Tillis announced he was culminated when Tillis announced he was culminated when Tillis announced he was voting no on the one big beautiful bill. voting no on the one big beautiful bill. voting no on the one big beautiful bill. >> So what do I tell >> So what do I tell >> So what do I tell >> arguing it would push too many lowincome >> arguing it would push too many lowincome >> arguing it would push too many lowincome North Carolinians off Medicaid. In North Carolinians off Medicaid. In North Carolinians off Medicaid. In response, the president called Tillis a response, the president called Tillis a response, the president called Tillis a talker and complainer, not a doer. talker and complainer, not a doer. talker and complainer, not a doer. >> I respect the president. I still feel >> I respect the president. I still feel >> I respect the president. I still feel like we have an odd relationship where like we have an odd relationship where like we have an odd relationship where I've clearly made him angry. But it took I've clearly made him angry. But it took I've clearly made him angry. But it took years before he even made the first years before he even made the first years before he even made the first negative comment about me. But I react negative comment about me. But I react negative comment about me. But I react to anybody on this earth the same way.

to anybody on this earth the same way. to anybody on this earth the same way. If you come at me with If you come at me with If you come at me with with what I think is unfair or incorrect with what I think is unfair or incorrect with what I think is unfair or incorrect data, I'm going to come back after you. data, I'm going to come back after you. data, I'm going to come back after you. >> The president threatened to find a >> The president threatened to find a >> The president threatened to find a primary challenger to run against primary challenger to run against primary challenger to run against Tillis. The senator announced that he Tillis. The senator announced that he Tillis. The senator announced that he would be retiring. Instead of fighting would be retiring. Instead of fighting would be retiring. Instead of fighting for his seat, Tillis has written an for his seat, Tillis has written an for his seat, Tillis has written an unfiltered profanity laced book. The unfiltered profanity laced book. The unfiltered profanity laced book. The title sounds like it's taking aim at title sounds like it's taking aim at title sounds like it's taking aim at President Trump. President Trump. President Trump. >> It's a little take on Dale Carnegie, but >> It's a little take on Dale Carnegie, but >> It's a little take on Dale Carnegie, but it's How to Lose Friends and Antagonize it's How to Lose Friends and Antagonize it's How to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents. Presidents. Presidents. >> Any presidents in particular? >> Any presidents in particular? >> Any presidents in particular? >> Well, I mean, the more recent one, but I >> Well, I mean, the more recent one, but I >> Well, I mean, the more recent one, but I did a good job of antagonizing Biden and did a good job of antagonizing Biden and did a good job of antagonizing Biden and a little bit with Obama back in the day. a little bit with Obama back in the day. a little bit with Obama back in the day. >> But the cover doesn't feature President >> But the cover doesn't feature President >> But the cover doesn't feature President Trump. Instead, it features unflattering Trump. Instead, it features unflattering Trump. Instead, it features unflattering photos of some of Tillis' least favorite photos of some of Tillis' least favorite photos of some of Tillis' least favorite administration officials. It should be administration officials. It should be administration officials. It should be noted that he voted to confirm all of noted that he voted to confirm all of noted that he voted to confirm all of Trump's cabinet nominees, including Trump's cabinet nominees, including Trump's cabinet nominees, including Secretary of Defense Pete Hgsathth, a Secretary of Defense Pete Hgsathth, a Secretary of Defense Pete Hgsathth, a vote he now calls his biggest regret. vote he now calls his biggest regret. vote he now calls his biggest regret. >> Do you hold him responsible for the >> Do you hold him responsible for the >> Do you hold him responsible for the struggle in the Iran war?

struggle in the Iran war? struggle in the Iran war? >> Because you've said that you supported >> Because you've said that you supported >> Because you've said that you supported the initial decision. the initial decision. the initial decision. >> I'm glad the president went out. You >> I'm glad the president went out. You >> I'm glad the president went out. You know, I think that they got so caught up know, I think that they got so caught up know, I think that they got so caught up after the immense success of the first after the immense success of the first after the immense success of the first strike that Heg Seth probably didn't strike that Heg Seth probably didn't strike that Heg Seth probably didn't listen to his best military advice and listen to his best military advice and listen to his best military advice and say, "Now we should probably move to a say, "Now we should probably move to a say, "Now we should probably move to a different posture." different posture." different posture." >> He's calling for Hegsth to resign. It's >> He's calling for Hegsth to resign. It's >> He's calling for Hegsth to resign. It's not the first time he's gone after big not the first time he's gone after big not the first time he's gone after big game in Trump's cabinet. game in Trump's cabinet. game in Trump's cabinet. >> That is stonewalling. Earlier this year, >> That is stonewalling. Earlier this year, >> That is stonewalling. Earlier this year, he helped speed Christy Gnome's he helped speed Christy Gnome's he helped speed Christy Gnome's departure when the deportation campaign departure when the deportation campaign departure when the deportation campaign in Minneapolis led to the deaths of two in Minneapolis led to the deaths of two in Minneapolis led to the deaths of two American citizens, Renee Good and Alex American citizens, Renee Good and Alex American citizens, Renee Good and Alex Prey, at the hands of federal agents. Prey, at the hands of federal agents. Prey, at the hands of federal agents. >> The fact that you can't admit to a >> The fact that you can't admit to a >> The fact that you can't admit to a mistake, which looks like under mistake, which looks like under mistake, which looks like under investigation, is going to prove that investigation, is going to prove that investigation, is going to prove that Miss Good and Mr. Prey probably should Miss Good and Mr. Prey probably should Miss Good and Mr. Prey probably should not have been shot in the face and in not have been shot in the face and in not have been shot in the face and in the back. the back. the back. >> I'm not very often that angry, but when >> I'm not very often that angry, but when >> I'm not very often that angry, but when I'm angry, I believe there's a reason I'm angry, I believe there's a reason I'm angry, I believe there's a reason behind it and people should listen. What behind it and people should listen. What behind it and people should listen. What were you thinking then? What had gone were you thinking then? What had gone were you thinking then? What had gone wrong with her tenure? wrong with her tenure? wrong with her tenure? >> I was thinking about the $200 million >> I was thinking about the $200 million >> I was thinking about the $200 million that the Department of Homeland Security that the Department of Homeland Security that the Department of Homeland Security was spending on an ad campaign with her was spending on an ad campaign with her was spending on an ad campaign with her riding a horse. I was thinking about her riding a horse. I was thinking about her riding a horse. I was thinking about her calling people that were shot calling people that were shot calling people that were shot potentially domestic terrorists. That's potentially domestic terrorists. That's potentially domestic terrorists. That's proven not to be true.

proven not to be true. proven not to be true. >> Why do you think the president picked >> Why do you think the president picked >> Why do you think the president picked her? her? her? >> I think there are some people that are >> I think there are some people that are >> I think there are some people that are in the cabinet because to use the in the cabinet because to use the in the cabinet because to use the president's term, they're right out of president's term, they're right out of president's term, they're right out of central casting. I think Nome and Hexath central casting. I think Nome and Hexath central casting. I think Nome and Hexath are probably the poster children for men are probably the poster children for men are probably the poster children for men and women who should never have the and women who should never have the and women who should never have the authority they've been granted. authority they've been granted. authority they've been granted. >> This is the Tillis tightroppe walk. Talk >> This is the Tillis tightroppe walk. Talk >> This is the Tillis tightroppe walk. Talk about how much you want President Trump about how much you want President Trump about how much you want President Trump to succeed while heaping blame on his to succeed while heaping blame on his to succeed while heaping blame on his advisers and subordinates. advisers and subordinates. advisers and subordinates. >> The problem I have with some of the >> The problem I have with some of the >> The problem I have with some of the people on the front page of that book people on the front page of that book people on the front page of that book and a few others is that they're not and a few others is that they're not and a few others is that they're not looking around corners for him. Most of looking around corners for him. Most of looking around corners for him. Most of the issues that we're dealing with here the issues that we're dealing with here the issues that we're dealing with here have less to do with what he wanted to have less to do with what he wanted to have less to do with what he wanted to accomplish, but how he went about it. accomplish, but how he went about it. accomplish, but how he went about it. >> The president and the senator were >> The president and the senator were >> The president and the senator were reared in very different circumstances. reared in very different circumstances. reared in very different circumstances. Born in 1960 in Jacksonville, Florida, Born in 1960 in Jacksonville, Florida, Born in 1960 in Jacksonville, Florida, Tillis was one of six kids. He grew up Tillis was one of six kids. He grew up Tillis was one of six kids. He grew up all over the South, moving nearly every all over the South, moving nearly every all over the South, moving nearly every year. His father's itinerant life kept year. His father's itinerant life kept year. His father's itinerant life kept the family, in his words, on the the family, in his words, on the the family, in his words, on the economic bubble.

economic bubble. economic bubble. Depending upon the circumstances, we Depending upon the circumstances, we Depending upon the circumstances, we were either in a house that we rented, were either in a house that we rented, were either in a house that we rented, sometimes we owned it, and when things sometimes we owned it, and when things sometimes we owned it, and when things got really spicy, we uh were in a got really spicy, we uh were in a got really spicy, we uh were in a trailer park. trailer park. trailer park. >> Do you think that your background I >> Do you think that your background I >> Do you think that your background I don't know, does it make you different don't know, does it make you different don't know, does it make you different from your colleagues? from your colleagues? from your colleagues? >> You know what? I tell you what, it's why >> You know what? I tell you what, it's why >> You know what? I tell you what, it's why I probably react so quickly to this I probably react so quickly to this I probably react so quickly to this concept of we don't have an concept of we don't have an concept of we don't have an affordability problem. You always have affordability problem. You always have affordability problem. You always have an affordability problem. There's some an affordability problem. There's some an affordability problem. There's some segment of our society that always does. segment of our society that always does. segment of our society that always does. But denying it by definition means you But denying it by definition means you But denying it by definition means you don't recognize the problem. If you don't recognize the problem. If you don't recognize the problem. If you don't recognize it, you're not solving don't recognize it, you're not solving don't recognize it, you're not solving it. it. it. >> Constitutionally, >> Constitutionally, >> Constitutionally, >> it's those breadandbut issues that now >> it's those breadandbut issues that now >> it's those breadandbut issues that now threaten Republicans with, in his words, threaten Republicans with, in his words, threaten Republicans with, in his words, an electoral bloodbath in the midterms. an electoral bloodbath in the midterms. an electoral bloodbath in the midterms. But many of his colleagues are still But many of his colleagues are still But many of his colleagues are still afraid to break with the White House. afraid to break with the White House. afraid to break with the White House. You say in the book that at least 30 of You say in the book that at least 30 of You say in the book that at least 30 of your Republican colleagues in the Senate your Republican colleagues in the Senate your Republican colleagues in the Senate expressed reservations about many of the expressed reservations about many of the expressed reservations about many of the president's actions in private. Why president's actions in private. Why president's actions in private. Why can't in cases like Hegath those 30 turn can't in cases like Hegath those 30 turn can't in cases like Hegath those 30 turn into five votes against confirmation into five votes against confirmation into five votes against confirmation that gets you a different secretary of that gets you a different secretary of that gets you a different secretary of defense?

defense? defense? >> Okay, there are some that just really do >> Okay, there are some that just really do >> Okay, there are some that just really do not want to not want to not want to >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to bear the weight of >> they don't want to bear the weight of >> they don't want to bear the weight of the president. I get that. You're up for the president. I get that. You're up for the president. I get that. You're up for reelection. He'll target you in a reelection. He'll target you in a reelection. He'll target you in a primary. Um and so look, you know what primary. Um and so look, you know what primary. Um and so look, you know what all martyrs have in common? They're all martyrs have in common? They're all martyrs have in common? They're dead. There were probably a few dead. There were probably a few dead. There were probably a few instances where if we kind of ripped the instances where if we kind of ripped the instances where if we kind of ripped the band-aid off early, then I think we'd band-aid off early, then I think we'd band-aid off early, then I think we'd have had a lot better midterm have had a lot better midterm have had a lot better midterm environment than we're confronted with environment than we're confronted with environment than we're confronted with now. now. now. >> Tillis was first elected to the Senate >> Tillis was first elected to the Senate >> Tillis was first elected to the Senate in the 2014 midterms, just before Trump in the 2014 midterms, just before Trump in the 2014 midterms, just before Trump and MAGA took over the GOP. and MAGA took over the GOP. and MAGA took over the GOP. >> What kind of conservative were you at >> What kind of conservative were you at >> What kind of conservative were you at that moment? that moment? that moment? >> The same conservative I am today. Uh >> The same conservative I am today. Uh >> The same conservative I am today. Uh pro- second amendment, pro-life, limited pro- second amendment, pro-life, limited pro- second amendment, pro-life, limited government, uh fiscal restraint. Uh, the government, uh fiscal restraint. Uh, the government, uh fiscal restraint. Uh, the only difference between me and a lot of only difference between me and a lot of only difference between me and a lot of people that call themselves true people that call themselves true people that call themselves true conservatives is I got a long list of conservatives is I got a long list of conservatives is I got a long list of things that were ratified and they things that were ratified and they things that were ratified and they don't. don't. don't. >> Tillis's mentor in the Senate was Mitch >> Tillis's mentor in the Senate was Mitch >> Tillis's mentor in the Senate was Mitch McConnell. He even named his dog Little McConnell. He even named his dog Little McConnell. He even named his dog Little Mitch. He was a quick study of Mitch. He was a quick study of Mitch. He was a quick study of parliamentary procedure, vote counting, parliamentary procedure, vote counting, parliamentary procedure, vote counting, and calculated risk-taking.

and calculated risk-taking. and calculated risk-taking. >> If they leave, >> If they leave, >> If they leave, >> at 66, he seems as fit as anyone on the >> at 66, he seems as fit as anyone on the >> at 66, he seems as fit as anyone on the hill and as competitive, as we found hill and as competitive, as we found hill and as competitive, as we found out, waiting by the Senate subway out, waiting by the Senate subway out, waiting by the Senate subway tracks. You think you can jump and tracks. You think you can jump and tracks. You think you can jump and clear? clear? clear? >> I think so. I think I could. >> I think so. I think I could. >> I think so. I think I could. >> You want to do it? >> You want to do it? >> You want to do it? >> I'm not in your kind of sh I mean, look >> I'm not in your kind of sh I mean, look >> I'm not in your kind of sh I mean, look at look at at look at at look at >> if you could make it. >> if you could make it. >> if you could make it. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> Uh, if you can't >> Uh, if you can't >> Uh, if you can't Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> There was no way he could resist. >> 66. >> 66. >> In the second Trump administration, >> In the second Trump administration, >> In the second Trump administration, though, there's been too little though, there's been too little though, there's been too little legislative work for an energetic legislative work for an energetic legislative work for an energetic senator. Every recent White House, senator. Every recent White House, senator. Every recent White House, Tillis complains, has been eager to Tillis complains, has been eager to Tillis complains, has been eager to govern by executive order, but Trump 2.0 govern by executive order, but Trump 2.0 govern by executive order, but Trump 2.0 has been especially imperial. What don't has been especially imperial. What don't has been especially imperial. What don't they understand about the Senate and they understand about the Senate and they understand about the Senate and Congress? Congress? Congress? >> That we're a co-equal branch and they're >> That we're a co-equal branch and they're >> That we're a co-equal branch and they're at our best when they treat us like a at our best when they treat us like a at our best when they treat us like a peer. peer. peer. >> But this runs both ways, right? That >> But this runs both ways, right? That >> But this runs both ways, right? That they're more likely to treat you as a they're more likely to treat you as a they're more likely to treat you as a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch. Do you think the co-equal branch. Do you think the co-equal branch. Do you think the Republican Senate in Trump 2.0 0 has Republican Senate in Trump 2.0 0 has Republican Senate in Trump 2.0 0 has acted like a co-equal branch.

acted like a co-equal branch. acted like a co-equal branch. >> I think in some cases, yes, in most >> I think in some cases, yes, in most >> I think in some cases, yes, in most cases, no. And I would say the same cases, no. And I would say the same cases, no. And I would say the same thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate under Biden and Obama. under Biden and Obama. under Biden and Obama. >> Look, we always make the mistake when >> Look, we always make the mistake when >> Look, we always make the mistake when our guys in office of conveying power to our guys in office of conveying power to our guys in office of conveying power to the White House. And I've had a real the White House. And I've had a real the White House. And I've had a real problem with that because it almost problem with that because it almost problem with that because it almost always comes back to bite you. always comes back to bite you. always comes back to bite you. >> Another thing that's come back to bite >> Another thing that's come back to bite >> Another thing that's come back to bite Republican senators repeatedly is the Republican senators repeatedly is the Republican senators repeatedly is the president's own words. the same time. president's own words. the same time. president's own words. the same time. >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on Trump's advisers, he also acknowledges Trump's advisers, he also acknowledges Trump's advisers, he also acknowledges what he calls Trump's WTF moments, what he calls Trump's WTF moments, what he calls Trump's WTF moments, threatening to seize Greenland, casting threatening to seize Greenland, casting threatening to seize Greenland, casting himself as Jesus or Easter musings about himself as Jesus or Easter musings about himself as Jesus or Easter musings about annihilating Iran. annihilating Iran. annihilating Iran. >> I think he said, "Open the straight." >> I think he said, "Open the straight." >> I think he said, "Open the straight." >> Were you worried that we were going to >> Were you worried that we were going to >> Were you worried that we were going to start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? >> No. And I've told the president this >> No. And I've told the president this >> No. And I've told the president this before. I think you really need to before. I think you really need to before. I think you really need to understand the weight of your words and understand the weight of your words and understand the weight of your words and how literally people take you. how literally people take you. how literally people take you. >> But how do you tell the difference >> But how do you tell the difference >> But how do you tell the difference between what people are supposed to take between what people are supposed to take between what people are supposed to take literally and what they aren't?

literally and what they aren't? literally and what they aren't? >> You know, I I'd like to think that most >> You know, I I'd like to think that most >> You know, I I'd like to think that most of the time the president would be of the time the president would be of the time the president would be surrounded with people who would finally surrounded with people who would finally surrounded with people who would finally say, "Mr. President, if you do that, I'm say, "Mr. President, if you do that, I'm say, "Mr. President, if you do that, I'm walking out this door." There's a walking out this door." There's a walking out this door." There's a Russian expression, if only thesar knew, Russian expression, if only thesar knew, Russian expression, if only thesar knew, which means people don't want to blame which means people don't want to blame which means people don't want to blame the Zar when bad things happen. They the Zar when bad things happen. They the Zar when bad things happen. They want to blame his adviserss. But in this want to blame his adviserss. But in this want to blame his adviserss. But in this case with Trump, it's on him, right? In case with Trump, it's on him, right? In case with Trump, it's on him, right? In the end, whoever he has around him, he's the end, whoever he has around him, he's the end, whoever he has around him, he's thesar. thesar. thesar. >> Truman famously said that the buck stops >> Truman famously said that the buck stops >> Truman famously said that the buck stops here. Get here. Get here. Get >> a good line. >> a good line. >> a good line. >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great adviserss. The Tillis Balancing Act adviserss. The Tillis Balancing Act adviserss. The Tillis Balancing Act extends to the events of January 6, extends to the events of January 6, extends to the events of January 6, 2021. He's still angry in a way that 2021. He's still angry in a way that 2021. He's still angry in a way that stands out among his Republican stands out among his Republican stands out among his Republican colleagues. colleagues. colleagues. >> Look, this was the first time in the >> Look, this was the first time in the >> Look, this was the first time in the history of this country that we had not history of this country that we had not history of this country that we had not had a completely peaceful transfer of had a completely peaceful transfer of had a completely peaceful transfer of power on that day. And that was power on that day. And that was power on that day. And that was despicable. The people that led the despicable. The people that led the despicable. The people that led the charge, the people that assaulted police charge, the people that assaulted police charge, the people that assaulted police officers, I wish they were still in officers, I wish they were still in officers, I wish they were still in prison and serving a very long sentence.

prison and serving a very long sentence. prison and serving a very long sentence. >> But they were there for the president. >> But they were there for the president. >> But they were there for the president. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> But he wasn't disgusted enough to >> But he wasn't disgusted enough to >> But he wasn't disgusted enough to convict Trump in the impeachment trial. convict Trump in the impeachment trial. convict Trump in the impeachment trial. He says it was because the process was He says it was because the process was He says it was because the process was rushed and uncenatorial. rushed and uncenatorial. rushed and uncenatorial. >> I read your book and one of your themes >> I read your book and one of your themes >> I read your book and one of your themes was that senators need leverage. This was that senators need leverage. This was that senators need leverage. This was a moment when you as a Republican was a moment when you as a Republican was a moment when you as a Republican senator and your colleagues, you had all senator and your colleagues, you had all senator and your colleagues, you had all the leverage over him. You had the power the leverage over him. You had the power the leverage over him. You had the power to make sure he wasn't president again. to make sure he wasn't president again. to make sure he wasn't president again. >> What you're doing is a a means justifies >> What you're doing is a a means justifies >> What you're doing is a a means justifies the end rationalization. So cheapening the end rationalization. So cheapening the end rationalization. So cheapening the impeachment process to prevent the impeachment process to prevent the impeachment process to prevent somebody from running in the future, I somebody from running in the future, I somebody from running in the future, I just don't buy it. just don't buy it. just don't buy it. >> We're about to have a midterm election. >> We're about to have a midterm election. >> We're about to have a midterm election. Do you have any concerns about how this Do you have any concerns about how this Do you have any concerns about how this same president who you've been same president who you've been same president who you've been condemning for January 6 will react if condemning for January 6 will react if condemning for January 6 will react if Republicans have a bad night in the Republicans have a bad night in the Republicans have a bad night in the midterms? midterms? midterms? >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It would be another political unforced would be another political unforced would be another political unforced error if we do that. error if we do that. error if we do that. >> I found actually inspiration. Earlier >> I found actually inspiration. Earlier >> I found actually inspiration. Earlier this year, Tillis used his parliamentary this year, Tillis used his parliamentary this year, Tillis used his parliamentary skills to circumvent the speaker of the skills to circumvent the speaker of the skills to circumvent the speaker of the house and get a long promised plaque house and get a long promised plaque house and get a long promised plaque installed honoring the capital police installed honoring the capital police installed honoring the capital police and other officers for protecting and other officers for protecting and other officers for protecting Congress that day. It's mounted by the Congress that day. It's mounted by the Congress that day. It's mounted by the door that presidents take to deliver door that presidents take to deliver door that presidents take to deliver their inaugural addresses and hand over their inaugural addresses and hand over their inaugural addresses and hand over power. As we made our way out onto that power. As we made our way out onto that power. As we made our way out onto that terrace, Tillis told us he hopes the terrace, Tillis told us he hopes the terrace, Tillis told us he hopes the plaque will be a reminder and a warning, plaque will be a reminder and a warning, plaque will be a reminder and a warning, even if the current president seems even if the current president seems even if the current president seems unchased. You talk a lot in your book unchased. You talk a lot in your book unchased. You talk a lot in your book about the risks of authoritarianism.

about the risks of authoritarianism. about the risks of authoritarianism. What are you worried about? What are you worried about? What are you worried about? >> The executive branch with its outsized >> The executive branch with its outsized >> The executive branch with its outsized influence threatening people in influence threatening people in influence threatening people in primaries basically degrading their primaries basically degrading their primaries basically degrading their independence or eliminating it all independence or eliminating it all independence or eliminating it all together. Then we become a a one together. Then we become a a one together. Then we become a a one institution institution institution country which is exactly what we fought country which is exactly what we fought country which is exactly what we fought a revolutionary war over. I mean we will a revolutionary war over. I mean we will a revolutionary war over. I mean we will have a sort of dictator king if we're have a sort of dictator king if we're have a sort of dictator king if we're not careful. It seems like there's a not careful. It seems like there's a not careful. It seems like there's a step change where presidents just ignore step change where presidents just ignore step change where presidents just ignore Congress or don't even try and get Congress or don't even try and get Congress or don't even try and get things passed. things passed. things passed. >> And all we've seen over the the last >> And all we've seen over the the last >> And all we've seen over the the last four administrations is a constant four administrations is a constant four administrations is a constant escalation. I want checks and balances. escalation. I want checks and balances. escalation. I want checks and balances. I want all three branches to have their I want all three branches to have their I want all three branches to have their individual role and continue to check individual role and continue to check individual role and continue to check power as they have for 250 years. And I power as they have for 250 years. And I power as they have for 250 years. And I think because we've been such a think because we've been such a think because we've been such a successful democracy for so long, it's successful democracy for so long, it's successful democracy for so long, it's hard for the American people to hard for the American people to hard for the American people to understand how quickly we could lose it understand how quickly we could lose it understand how quickly we could lose it all.