Is Trump Running Out of Steam? | The Ezra Klein Show

He is playing for history. Capital G, He is playing for history. Capital G, great man of history. To be remembered, great man of history. To be remembered, great man of history. To be remembered, to be remembered by one name, to have to be remembered by one name, to have to be remembered by one name, to have left a mark uh on the world that is just left a mark uh on the world that is just left a mark uh on the world that is just different [music] than a typical different [music] than a typical different [music] than a typical president or what he would say is a president or what he would say is a president or what he would say is a normal president. Maggie Haberman is a normal president. Maggie Haberman is a normal president. Maggie Haberman is a White House correspondent at [music] the White House correspondent at [music] the White House correspondent at [music] the New York Times, a pulit surprise winner, New York Times, a pulit surprise winner, New York Times, a pulit surprise winner, and the co-author alongside Jonathan and the co-author alongside Jonathan and the co-author alongside Jonathan Swan of regime change. I would say the Swan of regime change. I would say the Swan of regime change. I would say the single best book [music] single best book [music] single best book [music] on the first 14 months of Donald Trump's on the first 14 months of Donald Trump's on the first 14 months of Donald Trump's second term. She joins me [music] now. Maggie Haberman, welcome back to the Maggie Haberman, welcome back to the show. show. show. >> Ezra, thank you for having me. >> Ezra, thank you for having me. >> Ezra, thank you for having me. >> So, I want to talk about the experience >> So, I want to talk about the experience >> So, I want to talk about the experience I had reading the book, which is I had reading the book, which is I had reading the book, which is remembering how much energy and ferocity remembering how much energy and ferocity remembering how much energy and ferocity there was in the first 6 to 8 months there was in the first 6 to 8 months there was in the first 6 to 8 months >> of the Trump administration, >> of the Trump administration, >> of the Trump administration, >> right? >> right? >> right? And then knowing how many of the things And then knowing how many of the things And then knowing how many of the things that you all were tracking here from the that you all were tracking here from the that you all were tracking here from the terrorists to Doge to terrorists to Doge to terrorists to Doge to um parts of society bending the knee to um parts of society bending the knee to um parts of society bending the knee to Trump to the Iran war Trump to the Iran war Trump to the Iran war >> by now feel like they have like deeply >> by now feel like they have like deeply >> by now feel like they have like deeply run out of some kind of steam or they've run out of some kind of steam or they've run out of some kind of steam or they've ended up trapping the Trump ended up trapping the Trump ended up trapping the Trump administration in its own decisions. So administration in its own decisions. So administration in its own decisions. So sort of want to start with the big sort of want to start with the big sort of want to start with the big picture. Um this book is really about picture. Um this book is really about picture. Um this book is really about Trump's year one mostly. What does year Trump's year one mostly. What does year Trump's year one mostly. What does year two feel like to you?

two feel like to you? two feel like to you? First of all, thank you for having me First of all, thank you for having me First of all, thank you for having me and I wish Jonathan were here, but uh and I wish Jonathan were here, but uh and I wish Jonathan were here, but uh his wife is having a baby soon. So, and his wife is having a baby soon. So, and his wife is having a baby soon. So, and I have permission to say that. So, uh I have permission to say that. So, uh I have permission to say that. So, uh there's a reason that the first section there's a reason that the first section there's a reason that the first section of the book is called Whirlwind. And I of the book is called Whirlwind. And I of the book is called Whirlwind. And I was thinking as you were talking about was thinking as you were talking about was thinking as you were talking about the running out of steam piece. I would the running out of steam piece. I would the running out of steam piece. I would put it a little differently. I think put it a little differently. I think put it a little differently. I think it's a little it's not black and white. it's a little it's not black and white. it's a little it's not black and white. Um and Elon Musk is obviously not Um and Elon Musk is obviously not Um and Elon Musk is obviously not working for the government anymore. I do working for the government anymore. I do working for the government anymore. I do think it's remarkable how much of Doge's think it's remarkable how much of Doge's think it's remarkable how much of Doge's memory hold. um he came in, he was memory hold. um he came in, he was memory hold. um he came in, he was supposed to uh change the way government supposed to uh change the way government supposed to uh change the way government was going to work. In reality, Doge was going to work. In reality, Doge was going to work. In reality, Doge didn't do anything close to what it was didn't do anything close to what it was didn't do anything close to what it was supposed to do. But it did do things supposed to do. But it did do things supposed to do. But it did do things like show how Trump was going to govern like show how Trump was going to govern like show how Trump was going to govern um by fiat in large measure. Elon Musk um by fiat in large measure. Elon Musk um by fiat in large measure. Elon Musk shut down USAD. Just shut it down. Shut shut down USAD. Just shut it down. Shut shut down USAD. Just shut it down. Shut down an entire congressionally created down an entire congressionally created down an entire congressionally created agency. One of Trump's first unilateral agency. One of Trump's first unilateral agency. One of Trump's first unilateral actions was firing a bunch of inspectors actions was firing a bunch of inspectors actions was firing a bunch of inspectors general. uh did not notify Congress, general. uh did not notify Congress, general. uh did not notify Congress, which he was supposed to do, about why, which he was supposed to do, about why, which he was supposed to do, about why, and he was supposed to give Congress a and he was supposed to give Congress a and he was supposed to give Congress a 30-day notice. None of that happened.

30-day notice. None of that happened. 30-day notice. None of that happened. Steven Miller, in particular, rolled out Steven Miller, in particular, rolled out Steven Miller, in particular, rolled out with a bunch of executive actions that I with a bunch of executive actions that I with a bunch of executive actions that I would say some of them didn't run out of would say some of them didn't run out of would say some of them didn't run out of steam. The ones focused on DEI in steam. The ones focused on DEI in steam. The ones focused on DEI in particular, the one about trans women in particular, the one about trans women in particular, the one about trans women in sports in particular. Um, and certainly sports in particular. Um, and certainly sports in particular. Um, and certainly a lot of their activities at the border a lot of their activities at the border a lot of their activities at the border have not. If you were a Trump supporter have not. If you were a Trump supporter have not. If you were a Trump supporter and you voted for him for those reasons, and you voted for him for those reasons, and you voted for him for those reasons, which were things he did talk about on which were things he did talk about on which were things he did talk about on the campaign trail, just those three, the campaign trail, just those three, the campaign trail, just those three, you would be happy. They didn't vote for you would be happy. They didn't vote for you would be happy. They didn't vote for most of his base. Um, another potential most of his base. Um, another potential most of his base. Um, another potential forever war in the Middle East. So, that forever war in the Middle East. So, that forever war in the Middle East. So, that is, I think, not just running out of is, I think, not just running out of is, I think, not just running out of steam, that is, um, injecting fresh steam, that is, um, injecting fresh steam, that is, um, injecting fresh chaos. He has now just launched a fresh chaos. He has now just launched a fresh chaos. He has now just launched a fresh trade war. And so there's the trade war. And so there's the trade war. And so there's the combination of uh new tariffs plus combination of uh new tariffs plus combination of uh new tariffs plus escalation back to uh engaged combat escalation back to uh engaged combat escalation back to uh engaged combat with Iran. Um could be really with Iran. Um could be really with Iran. Um could be really interesting for the economy. And so I interesting for the economy. And so I interesting for the economy. And so I don't know that I think it's that it's don't know that I think it's that it's don't know that I think it's that it's run out of steam, run out of steam, run out of steam, but things tend to end one way with but things tend to end one way with but things tend to end one way with Trump. Um and it's usually in some form Trump. Um and it's usually in some form Trump. Um and it's usually in some form of uh the lack of strategy being of uh the lack of strategy being of uh the lack of strategy being apparent. And I would say that's what apparent. And I would say that's what apparent. And I would say that's what you're seeing right now. So I don't know you're seeing right now. So I don't know you're seeing right now. So I don't know that it's running out of steam. it's that it's running out of steam. it's that it's running out of steam. it's running into Trump reality.

running into Trump reality. running into Trump reality. >> I think often of something that uh the >> I think often of something that uh the >> I think often of something that uh the conservative analyst Yvall Leven said to conservative analyst Yvall Leven said to conservative analyst Yvall Leven said to me early in the term. He said that me early in the term. He said that me early in the term. He said that >> administrations have a rhythm. At first >> administrations have a rhythm. At first >> administrations have a rhythm. At first they are the master of events. Everybody they are the master of events. Everybody they are the master of events. Everybody is responding to them. is responding to them. is responding to them. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> And then they are responding to events. >> And then they are responding to events. >> And then they are responding to events. >> And in Trump's case, he's often even now >> And in Trump's case, he's often even now >> And in Trump's case, he's often even now responding to events he created. responding to events he created. responding to events he created. >> Correct. which is what I was thinking >> Correct. which is what I was thinking >> Correct. which is what I was thinking when you were saying that when you were saying that when you were saying that >> there's been a lot of reporting for >> there's been a lot of reporting for >> there's been a lot of reporting for instance on Iran right now that Trump instance on Iran right now that Trump instance on Iran right now that Trump he's in the mood for revenge and I he's in the mood for revenge and I he's in the mood for revenge and I thought it was such a strange word that thought it was such a strange word that thought it was such a strange word that was being chosen like he attacked was being chosen like he attacked was being chosen like he attacked >> Iran decapitated the leadership >> Iran decapitated the leadership >> Iran decapitated the leadership threatened to end the civilization Iran threatened to end the civilization Iran threatened to end the civilization Iran has not completely capitulated to him so has not completely capitulated to him so has not completely capitulated to him so he's like he needs reven like is revenge he's like he needs reven like is revenge he's like he needs reven like is revenge the right word there I'm sure he feels the right word there I'm sure he feels the right word there I'm sure he feels it is it is it is >> I saw that reporting and I actually >> I saw that reporting and I actually >> I saw that reporting and I actually wondered um whether it was just about wondered um whether it was just about wondered um whether it was just about what you're describing which is some what you're describing which is some what you're describing which is some kind of retribution for a military kind of retribution for a military kind of retribution for a military intervention that he began or whether it intervention that he began or whether it intervention that he began or whether it was was was part of this ongoing part of this ongoing part of this ongoing anger at Iran that really is quite real anger at Iran that really is quite real anger at Iran that really is quite real with him about the threats against his with him about the threats against his with him about the threats against his life.

life. life. >> Do you want to talk through that because >> Do you want to talk through that because >> Do you want to talk through that because I think that's an important thread of I think that's an important thread of I think that's an important thread of the book. the book. the book. >> Sure. It's very much an important thread >> Sure. It's very much an important thread >> Sure. It's very much an important thread of the book and I think it was of the book and I think it was of the book and I think it was incredibly I don't think I know I mean incredibly I don't think I know I mean incredibly I don't think I know I mean Jonathan and my reporting really did Jonathan and my reporting really did Jonathan and my reporting really did show us how how radicalizing those four show us how how radicalizing those four show us how how radicalizing those four years out of power were not just for the years out of power were not just for the years out of power were not just for the investigations that he was facing and investigations that he was facing and investigations that he was facing and that a lot of his advisers got swept up that a lot of his advisers got swept up that a lot of his advisers got swept up in. But what also happened in 2024, in. But what also happened in 2024, in. But what also happened in 2024, right after he was convicted in a state right after he was convicted in a state right after he was convicted in a state court on uh falsifying documents in court on uh falsifying documents in court on uh falsifying documents in connection with a hush money payment to connection with a hush money payment to connection with a hush money payment to a porn star who said he had an affair a porn star who said he had an affair a porn star who said he had an affair with her was um it was a Pakistani man with her was um it was a Pakistani man with her was um it was a Pakistani man who was indicted in connection with the who was indicted in connection with the who was indicted in connection with the murder for hire plot that was supposed murder for hire plot that was supposed murder for hire plot that was supposed to be allegedly to be allegedly to be allegedly engaged in by Iran. This was a proxy. engaged in by Iran. This was a proxy. engaged in by Iran. This was a proxy. >> The allegation is Iran was had a proxy >> The allegation is Iran was had a proxy >> The allegation is Iran was had a proxy who was trying to hire a murderer to who was trying to hire a murderer to who was trying to hire a murderer to kill Donald Trump. kill Donald Trump. kill Donald Trump. >> Correct. and was indicted, by the way, >> Correct. and was indicted, by the way, >> Correct. and was indicted, by the way, you know, under the Biden Justice you know, under the Biden Justice you know, under the Biden Justice Department was indicted. Department was indicted. Department was indicted. >> But the assassination attempt in Butler >> But the assassination attempt in Butler >> But the assassination attempt in Butler happens right after that where he was happens right after that where he was happens right after that where he was shot and shot and shot and >> it was a galvanizing moment for the >> it was a galvanizing moment for the >> it was a galvanizing moment for the campaign. It was a galvanizing moment campaign. It was a galvanizing moment campaign. It was a galvanizing moment for him. Um, all of that in his mind for him. Um, all of that in his mind for him. Um, all of that in his mind becomes one big blur. And around that becomes one big blur. And around that becomes one big blur. And around that time is when, and I don't remember it time is when, and I don't remember it time is when, and I don't remember it was right before, right after, but Iran was right before, right after, but Iran was right before, right after, but Iran had successfully hacked the campaign had successfully hacked the campaign had successfully hacked the campaign manager's emails, Susie Wilds. accord manager's emails, Susie Wilds. accord manager's emails, Susie Wilds. accord Iran according to officials was behind Iran according to officials was behind Iran according to officials was behind it and they start releasing them and it and they start releasing them and it and they start releasing them and that was hugely embarrassing to the that was hugely embarrassing to the that was hugely embarrassing to the entire campaign. It also added to this entire campaign. It also added to this entire campaign. It also added to this sense of siege that they all have and sense of siege that they all have and sense of siege that they all have and they all went back into the White House

they all went back into the White House they all went back into the White House this way for different reasons in some this way for different reasons in some this way for different reasons in some cases but for that core group and for cases but for that core group and for cases but for that core group and for Trump himself Iran and this feeling of Trump himself Iran and this feeling of Trump himself Iran and this feeling of being under threat is constant. You being under threat is constant. You being under threat is constant. You heard it when he spoke to John Carl heard it when he spoke to John Carl heard it when he spoke to John Carl after the Ayatollah was killed at the after the Ayatollah was killed at the after the Ayatollah was killed at the beginning of this war and Trump said beginning of this war and Trump said beginning of this war and Trump said something to John Carl that I don't something to John Carl that I don't something to John Carl that I don't think I've heard him say since as a think I've heard him say since as a think I've heard him say since as a repeat but it was they tried to get me repeat but it was they tried to get me repeat but it was they tried to get me twice. I you some I'm paraphrasing but twice. I you some I'm paraphrasing but twice. I you some I'm paraphrasing but it was I got them once they tried to get it was I got them once they tried to get it was I got them once they tried to get me twice. Um whatever he's referring to me twice. Um whatever he's referring to me twice. Um whatever he's referring to I don't exactly know in terms of the I don't exactly know in terms of the I don't exactly know in terms of the twice but it tells you what his mindset twice but it tells you what his mindset twice but it tells you what his mindset is. is. is. One story that we've heard a lot is that One story that we've heard a lot is that One story that we've heard a lot is that Netanyahu talked Donald Trump into this Netanyahu talked Donald Trump into this Netanyahu talked Donald Trump into this war. Um, you know, there's war. Um, you know, there's war. Um, you know, there's [clears throat] another story that Trump [clears throat] another story that Trump [clears throat] another story that Trump himself had distinctive views on Iran, himself had distinctive views on Iran, himself had distinctive views on Iran, has for some time, has always said they has for some time, has always said they has for some time, has always said they cannot have a nuclear weapon, tore up cannot have a nuclear weapon, tore up cannot have a nuclear weapon, tore up the Obama nuclear deal, over the the Obama nuclear deal, over the the Obama nuclear deal, over the objections of his own advisers, has objections of his own advisers, has objections of his own advisers, has always had a very hard line on Iran. always had a very hard line on Iran. always had a very hard line on Iran. >> Going back years, I mean, you can find >> Going back years, I mean, you can find >> Going back years, I mean, you can find old interviews way before the presidency old interviews way before the presidency old interviews way before the presidency where he talks about Iran humiliating where he talks about Iran humiliating where he talks about Iran humiliating us. When you get the respect of the us. When you get the respect of the us. When you get the respect of the other countries, then the other other countries, then the other other countries, then the other countries tend to do a little bit as you countries tend to do a little bit as you countries tend to do a little bit as you do and you can create the right do and you can create the right do and you can create the right attitudes. The the Iranian situation is attitudes. The the Iranian situation is attitudes. The the Iranian situation is a case in point that they hold our a case in point that they hold our a case in point that they hold our hostages is just absolutely and totally hostages is just absolutely and totally hostages is just absolutely and totally ridiculous. That this country sits back ridiculous. That this country sits back ridiculous. That this country sits back and allows a country such as Iran to and allows a country such as Iran to and allows a country such as Iran to hold our hostages to my way of thinking hold our hostages to my way of thinking hold our hostages to my way of thinking is a horror. And I don't think they'd do is a horror. And I don't think they'd do is a horror. And I don't think they'd do it with other countries. I honestly

it with other countries. I honestly it with other countries. I honestly don't think they'd do it with other don't think they'd do it with other don't think they'd do it with other countries. countries. countries. >> Obviously, you're advocating that we >> Obviously, you're advocating that we >> Obviously, you're advocating that we should have gone in there with troops, should have gone in there with troops, should have gone in there with troops, etc., and brought our boys out. etc., and brought our boys out. etc., and brought our boys out. >> I absolutely feel that. Yes. >> I absolutely feel that. Yes. >> I absolutely feel that. Yes. >> I mean, you you're right about this, but >> I mean, you you're right about this, but >> I mean, you you're right about this, but a lot of Trump's politics seem very a lot of Trump's politics seem very a lot of Trump's politics seem very rooted in the 80s and things that rooted in the 80s and things that rooted in the 80s and things that happened to America in the, you know, happened to America in the, you know, happened to America in the, you know, the 70s and the 80s. But what at this the 70s and the 80s. But what at this the 70s and the 80s. But what at this point is your view of why Donald Trump point is your view of why Donald Trump point is your view of why Donald Trump decides decides decides to actually do a regime changeoriented to actually do a regime changeoriented to actually do a regime changeoriented war in Iran? war in Iran? war in Iran? >> The final piece of reporting that we did >> The final piece of reporting that we did >> The final piece of reporting that we did in regime change was about the leadup to in regime change was about the leadup to in regime change was about the leadup to the Iran war. And it was not there there the Iran war. And it was not there there the Iran war. And it was not there there were there were things that happened were there were things that happened were there were things that happened that you know I'm sure will be either that you know I'm sure will be either that you know I'm sure will be either unearthed or could fill out a fuller unearthed or could fill out a fuller unearthed or could fill out a fuller picture, but we were really just focused picture, but we were really just focused picture, but we were really just focused on a few discreet meetings and on a few discreet meetings and on a few discreet meetings and conversations. And these were situation conversations. And these were situation conversations. And these were situation room meetings. One of which included I I room meetings. One of which included I I room meetings. One of which included I I have to say that I went and I tried to have to say that I went and I tried to have to say that I went and I tried to find some other example that was an find some other example that was an find some other example that was an analog and I couldn't of a foreign analog and I couldn't of a foreign analog and I couldn't of a foreign leader coming to the situation room to leader coming to the situation room to leader coming to the situation room to have a very sensitive intelligence have a very sensitive intelligence have a very sensitive intelligence conversation with the US president. And conversation with the US president. And conversation with the US president. And so Netanyahu comes on February 11th and so Netanyahu comes on February 11th and so Netanyahu comes on February 11th and Netanyahu paints this pretty compelling Netanyahu paints this pretty compelling Netanyahu paints this pretty compelling to Trump's ears story about why now is to Trump's ears story about why now is to Trump's ears story about why now is ripe for regime change. And Trump is ripe for regime change. And Trump is ripe for regime change. And Trump is always very receptive to you could be always very receptive to you could be always very receptive to you could be the person to do XYZ. And so Trump says the person to do XYZ. And so Trump says the person to do XYZ. And so Trump says some version of sounds good to me. his some version of sounds good to me. his some version of sounds good to me. his own CIA director, his own secretary of own CIA director, his own secretary of own CIA director, his own secretary of state the next day, they have run these state the next day, they have run these state the next day, they have run these scenarios. They say some of what scenarios. They say some of what scenarios. They say some of what Netanyahu is proposing and in what the Netanyahu is proposing and in what the Netanyahu is proposing and in what the Israelis would call their decapitation Israelis would call their decapitation Israelis would call their decapitation scenario of take out certain leadership scenario of take out certain leadership scenario of take out certain leadership and then some of it could be done. They and then some of it could be done. They and then some of it could be done. They could degrade the ballistics missile could degrade the ballistics missile could degrade the ballistics missile program at Iran for instance, but that

program at Iran for instance, but that program at Iran for instance, but that the regime change scenarios that the regime change scenarios that the regime change scenarios that Netanyahu had presented, including a Netanyahu had presented, including a Netanyahu had presented, including a video of like who could take over and video of like who could take over and video of like who could take over and most of the Americans found it to be most of the Americans found it to be most of the Americans found it to be silly. John Radcliffe, the CIA director, silly. John Radcliffe, the CIA director, silly. John Radcliffe, the CIA director, called it farsle. Marco Rubio was much called it farsle. Marco Rubio was much called it farsle. Marco Rubio was much more explicit says bull in other words more explicit says bull in other words more explicit says bull in other words it's and Trump said regime it's and Trump said regime it's and Trump said regime change will be their problem. It wasn't change will be their problem. It wasn't change will be their problem. It wasn't quite clear whether he meant Iran or quite clear whether he meant Iran or quite clear whether he meant Iran or Israel but he still thought it was worth Israel but he still thought it was worth Israel but he still thought it was worth a try to accomplish the other a try to accomplish the other a try to accomplish the other objectives. So objectives. So objectives. So that yes was definitely Netanyahu making that yes was definitely Netanyahu making that yes was definitely Netanyahu making a case. But number one, Netanyahu in our a case. But number one, Netanyahu in our a case. But number one, Netanyahu in our reporting in 2024 has this meeting with reporting in 2024 has this meeting with reporting in 2024 has this meeting with Trump to essentially go kiss the ring Trump to essentially go kiss the ring Trump to essentially go kiss the ring and make nice after a break in their and make nice after a break in their and make nice after a break in their relationship. relationship. relationship. And Trump says to him privately, I'm And Trump says to him privately, I'm And Trump says to him privately, I'm going to be much more aggressive on Iran going to be much more aggressive on Iran going to be much more aggressive on Iran this time. This is right after Butler. this time. This is right after Butler. this time. This is right after Butler. Uh remember that as you said he was Uh remember that as you said he was Uh remember that as you said he was Trump was doing things against the Trump was doing things against the Trump was doing things against the objections of his own advisers on the objections of his own advisers on the objections of his own advisers on the nuclear deal. Certainly the Obama nuclear deal. Certainly the Obama nuclear deal. Certainly the Obama nuclear deal. Taking out General nuclear deal. Taking out General nuclear deal. Taking out General Sulammani at the beginning of 2020 was Sulammani at the beginning of 2020 was Sulammani at the beginning of 2020 was also against what some of his advisers also against what some of his advisers also against what some of his advisers wanted. Um it is part of what has made wanted. Um it is part of what has made wanted. Um it is part of what has made him such a target for Iran. Um but he is him such a target for Iran. Um but he is him such a target for Iran. Um but he is more hawkish on Iran than he is about more hawkish on Iran than he is about more hawkish on Iran than he is about other parts of the Middle East to a other parts of the Middle East to a other parts of the Middle East to a degree that has always surprised some of degree that has always surprised some of degree that has always surprised some of his own aids and that his current aids his own aids and that his current aids his own aids and that his current aids have really misread. I would say um you have really misread. I would say um you have really misread. I would say um you know they will continue to insist that know they will continue to insist that know they will continue to insist that he doesn't he doesn't like Netanyahu, he he doesn't he doesn't like Netanyahu, he he doesn't he doesn't like Netanyahu, he doesn't like this, he doesn't like that doesn't like this, he doesn't like that doesn't like this, he doesn't like that and he definitely says different things and he definitely says different things and he definitely says different things to different people depending on who to different people depending on who to different people depending on who he's talking to but it's always been

he's talking to but it's always been he's talking to but it's always been pretty clear that he has a firm view pretty clear that he has a firm view pretty clear that he has a firm view here and Trump believed Iran was a paper here and Trump believed Iran was a paper here and Trump believed Iran was a paper tiger after the 12-day war of last year tiger after the 12-day war of last year tiger after the 12-day war of last year cuz their response was pretty tepid to cuz their response was pretty tepid to cuz their response was pretty tepid to the strikes that the US engaged in. It the strikes that the US engaged in. It the strikes that the US engaged in. It was sort of some choreographed strikes was sort of some choreographed strikes was sort of some choreographed strikes toward allies. Okay, US allies. uh Trump toward allies. Okay, US allies. uh Trump toward allies. Okay, US allies. uh Trump believed that was going to be the extent believed that was going to be the extent believed that was going to be the extent of it. It it was just a massive of it. It it was just a massive of it. It it was just a massive miscalculation on his part and a and and miscalculation on his part and a and and miscalculation on his part and a and and a lack of understanding what was a lack of understanding what was a lack of understanding what was happening. And he was also fresh off of happening. And he was also fresh off of happening. And he was also fresh off of this Venezuela this Venezuela this Venezuela effort to capture Maduro earlier this effort to capture Maduro earlier this effort to capture Maduro earlier this year. That also made him believe we can year. That also made him believe we can year. That also made him believe we can do these things. I'm not saying that's a do these things. I'm not saying that's a do these things. I'm not saying that's a rational belief. I am saying that was rational belief. I am saying that was rational belief. I am saying that was his belief and he believes things will his belief and he believes things will his belief and he believes things will work out for him always. And he said work out for him always. And he said work out for him always. And he said that to Tucker Carlson which was in the that to Tucker Carlson which was in the that to Tucker Carlson which was in the book as well. It it gets to something book as well. It it gets to something book as well. It it gets to something that I think comes through in the book that I think comes through in the book that I think comes through in the book and I think about a lot from our and I think about a lot from our and I think about a lot from our coverage from the first year even just coverage from the first year even just coverage from the first year even just on this show. on this show. on this show. >> There's really in my view no Trumpism >> There's really in my view no Trumpism >> There's really in my view no Trumpism there's only Trump. there's only Trump. there's only Trump. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Which is to say that the amount of >> Which is to say that the amount of >> Which is to say that the amount of energy that gets wasted chasing down energy that gets wasted chasing down energy that gets wasted chasing down purported doctrines um the Mara Lago purported doctrines um the Mara Lago purported doctrines um the Mara Lago accords that were getting floated at one accords that were getting floated at one accords that were getting floated at one point to do a massive you know currency point to do a massive you know currency point to do a massive you know currency rebalancing all across the world. the rebalancing all across the world. the rebalancing all across the world. the Donro doctrine, right? We'd be focusing Donro doctrine, right? We'd be focusing Donro doctrine, right? We'd be focusing on the Western Hemisphere. We wouldn't on the Western Hemisphere. We wouldn't on the Western Hemisphere. We wouldn't be entangled in all this be entangled in all this be entangled in all this >> war and conflict in the Middle East.

>> war and conflict in the Middle East. >> war and conflict in the Middle East. >> Trump just weaves in and out of >> Trump just weaves in and out of >> Trump just weaves in and out of theories. I mean, there are things he theories. I mean, there are things he theories. I mean, there are things he holds to, right? He is hawkish on holds to, right? He is hawkish on holds to, right? He is hawkish on immigration, has been for a very long immigration, has been for a very long immigration, has been for a very long time. That is sustained. He has his time. That is sustained. He has his time. That is sustained. He has his views on trade, but even trade, right? views on trade, but even trade, right? views on trade, but even trade, right? The objectives have flitted back and The objectives have flitted back and The objectives have flitted back and forth on that. And everybody who says, forth on that. And everybody who says, forth on that. And everybody who says, "I know what MAGA is. I know what "I know what MAGA is. I know what "I know what MAGA is. I know what Trumpism is." Right? If it is anything, Trumpism is." Right? If it is anything, Trumpism is." Right? If it is anything, as you know, JD Vance would put it, it's as you know, JD Vance would put it, it's as you know, JD Vance would put it, it's no new wars, they end up wrong because no new wars, they end up wrong because no new wars, they end up wrong because Trump is right. I think he it's possibly Trump is right. I think he it's possibly Trump is right. I think he it's possibly you he said it to. you he said it to. you he said it to. >> Michael Sher at the Atlantic. He said it >> Michael Sher at the Atlantic. He said it >> Michael Sher at the Atlantic. He said it to. to. to. >> He's the one who decides >> He's the one who decides >> He's the one who decides >> right >> right >> right >> what it is. >> what it is. >> what it is. >> Ma is whatever I say it is is what he >> Ma is whatever I say it is is what he >> Ma is whatever I say it is is what he said. Now I think that's true. Now I said. Now I think that's true. Now I said. Now I think that's true. Now I guess that I I I have a slightly guess that I I I have a slightly guess that I I I have a slightly different take on it though. generally different take on it though. generally different take on it though. generally agree with you that trying to pin him to agree with you that trying to pin him to agree with you that trying to pin him to some ideology is just an absolute fool's some ideology is just an absolute fool's some ideology is just an absolute fool's errand and has always been a fool's errand and has always been a fool's errand and has always been a fool's errand. He does have these idlike errand. He does have these idlike errand. He does have these idlike impulses that he is very interested in, impulses that he is very interested in, impulses that he is very interested in, but it doesn't mean they can't be but it doesn't mean they can't be but it doesn't mean they can't be supplimated if the occasion calls for supplimated if the occasion calls for supplimated if the occasion calls for it. I think MAGA is is a movement. I do it. I think MAGA is is a movement. I do it. I think MAGA is is a movement. I do I don't think MAGA is the entire I don't think MAGA is the entire I don't think MAGA is the entire Republican party. I think MACA is a Republican party. I think MACA is a Republican party. I think MACA is a movement within the Rep Republican party movement within the Rep Republican party movement within the Rep Republican party and the coalition that exists around and the coalition that exists around and the coalition that exists around Trump in that framework has always been Trump in that framework has always been Trump in that framework has always been very uncomfortable and strange because very uncomfortable and strange because very uncomfortable and strange because he will say different things to he will say different things to he will say different things to different parts of it and I think that different parts of it and I think that different parts of it and I think that they would only be willing to ignore the they would only be willing to ignore the they would only be willing to ignore the parts that don't match their own view parts that don't match their own view parts that don't match their own view for him. I cannot think of another for him. I cannot think of another for him. I cannot think of another figure who can unite these different figure who can unite these different figure who can unite these different facets of this movement. But I do think

facets of this movement. But I do think facets of this movement. But I do think that this movement is is sinking. Not that this movement is is sinking. Not that this movement is is sinking. Not just I shouldn't say sinking. I think just I shouldn't say sinking. I think just I shouldn't say sinking. I think that it's it's having fissures not just that it's it's having fissures not just that it's it's having fissures not just because of Iran and Israel. It started because of Iran and Israel. It started because of Iran and Israel. It started with Epstein last year. We get into that with Epstein last year. We get into that with Epstein last year. We get into that extensively in the book. Um right after extensively in the book. Um right after extensively in the book. Um right after the 12-day war is when the Epstein the 12-day war is when the Epstein the 12-day war is when the Epstein crisis, and I'm calling it a crisis, crisis, and I'm calling it a crisis, crisis, and I'm calling it a crisis, what it actually is is a what it actually is is a what it actually is is a multi-administration failure to deal multi-administration failure to deal multi-administration failure to deal with a pedophile. Um who people of both with a pedophile. Um who people of both with a pedophile. Um who people of both parties found entertaining or useful or parties found entertaining or useful or parties found entertaining or useful or whatever. Um, but it was the MAGA whatever. Um, but it was the MAGA whatever. Um, but it was the MAGA movement leaders who had been talking movement leaders who had been talking movement leaders who had been talking about a need for transparency over many about a need for transparency over many about a need for transparency over many years leading up to Trump's election in years leading up to Trump's election in years leading up to Trump's election in 2024. And they then get caught up in 2024. And they then get caught up in 2024. And they then get caught up in that because Trump wants nothing to do that because Trump wants nothing to do that because Trump wants nothing to do with this. He doesn't want anything with this. He doesn't want anything with this. He doesn't want anything released. Uh, so it becomes a crisis released. Uh, so it becomes a crisis released. Uh, so it becomes a crisis because there is growing anger by because there is growing anger by because there is growing anger by Trump's own base about what's happening. Trump's own base about what's happening. Trump's own base about what's happening. There's growing anger by victims about There's growing anger by victims about There's growing anger by victims about why have these files not been released? why have these files not been released? why have these files not been released? Why is nothing being looked at? So you Why is nothing being looked at? So you Why is nothing being looked at? So you end up in this remarkable series, and we end up in this remarkable series, and we end up in this remarkable series, and we write about these in the book, these write about these in the book, these write about these in the book, these situation room meetings, the same place situation room meetings, the same place situation room meetings, the same place where Trump decided to take the country where Trump decided to take the country where Trump decided to take the country to war in Iran was what they were using to war in Iran was what they were using to war in Iran was what they were using for crisis comms on how do we get for crisis comms on how do we get for crisis comms on how do we get ourselves out of this mess. But if you ourselves out of this mess. But if you ourselves out of this mess. But if you want to track a moment that Trump want to track a moment that Trump want to track a moment that Trump started losing his own base, it was started losing his own base, it was started losing his own base, it was then.

then. then. >> But did he lose his B? I mean, I had >> But did he lose his B? I mean, I had >> But did he lose his B? I mean, I had people I've had people on the right on people I've had people on the right on people I've had people on the right on to talk about Trumpism cracking up and to talk about Trumpism cracking up and to talk about Trumpism cracking up and him losing his base. him losing his base. him losing his base. >> And then, you know, you look at the >> And then, you know, you look at the >> And then, you know, you look at the polls and the base is almost entirely polls and the base is almost entirely polls and the base is almost entirely with him. He's able to intervene in any with him. He's able to intervene in any with him. He's able to intervene in any primary he wants. He primary he wants. He primary he wants. He >> has not actually seemed to lose >> has not actually seemed to lose >> has not actually seemed to lose influence in this way. Tucker Carlson influence in this way. Tucker Carlson influence in this way. Tucker Carlson kind of breaking with him at least on kind of breaking with him at least on kind of breaking with him at least on some issues. These things really some issues. These things really some issues. These things really happened. happened. happened. >> And yet his influence with Republicans >> And yet his influence with Republicans >> And yet his influence with Republicans seems pretty undim. The people who seems pretty undim. The people who seems pretty undim. The people who challenged him like Massie, like challenged him like Massie, like challenged him like Massie, like Marjorie Taylor Green, Marjorie Taylor Green, Marjorie Taylor Green, >> they lost. They lost. They're gone. >> they lost. They lost. They're gone. >> they lost. They lost. They're gone. >> They're gone. There is I think two >> They're gone. There is I think two >> They're gone. There is I think two things can exist at once, though. A things can exist at once, though. A things can exist at once, though. A there was polling last year showing that there was polling last year showing that there was polling last year showing that even with his own base private mostly even with his own base private mostly even with his own base private mostly private polling his numbers were ticking private polling his numbers were ticking private polling his numbers were ticking down. Now there is no question that down. Now there is no question that down. Now there is no question that people who have opposed him because the people who have opposed him because the people who have opposed him because the Republican base is so Trump dependent Republican base is so Trump dependent Republican base is so Trump dependent will find themselves out of a job. That will find themselves out of a job. That will find themselves out of a job. That is absolutely true. At the same time, I is absolutely true. At the same time, I is absolutely true. At the same time, I never thought that I would see enough never thought that I would see enough never thought that I would see enough Republicans cross over and vote for the Republicans cross over and vote for the Republicans cross over and vote for the Epstein Transparency Act when Donald Epstein Transparency Act when Donald Epstein Transparency Act when Donald Trump was openly telling them, "Don't do Trump was openly telling them, "Don't do Trump was openly telling them, "Don't do this." It's the only time I can think this." It's the only time I can think this." It's the only time I can think of, Ezra, where he would say, "Believe of, Ezra, where he would say, "Believe of, Ezra, where he would say, "Believe me, not what you're hearing over there."

me, not what you're hearing over there." me, not what you're hearing over there." And there were people who didn't, And there were people who didn't, And there were people who didn't, including in his own base. Now, what including in his own base. Now, what including in his own base. Now, what they what their voter preference ends up they what their voter preference ends up they what their voter preference ends up being in the midterms or in a primary, being in the midterms or in a primary, being in the midterms or in a primary, it doesn't necessarily correlate to it doesn't necessarily correlate to it doesn't necessarily correlate to that. And I realize it sounds like I'm that. And I realize it sounds like I'm that. And I realize it sounds like I'm saying two things that are saying two things that are saying two things that are contradictory. Um I think these are two contradictory. Um I think these are two contradictory. Um I think these are two facts that exist at the same time. facts that exist at the same time. facts that exist at the same time. >> A very real thread of the book is this >> A very real thread of the book is this >> A very real thread of the book is this what does Trump know anymore and when or what does Trump know anymore and when or what does Trump know anymore and when or how does he know it? I mean, you have how does he know it? I mean, you have how does he know it? I mean, you have this I wasn't really familiar with this I wasn't really familiar with this I wasn't really familiar with Natalie Harp before uh you I I I read Natalie Harp before uh you I I I read Natalie Harp before uh you I I I read the book, but this person who kind of the book, but this person who kind of the book, but this person who kind of follows him around, gives some printouts follows him around, gives some printouts follows him around, gives some printouts of adoring fan mail and positive news of adoring fan mail and positive news of adoring fan mail and positive news stories from right-wing media, stories from right-wing media, stories from right-wing media, >> but you know, he's on True Social. He's >> but you know, he's on True Social. He's >> but you know, he's on True Social. He's not really on other platforms. not really on other platforms. not really on other platforms. >> He clearly has some contact, you know, >> He clearly has some contact, you know, >> He clearly has some contact, you know, with people like Carlson and and others with people like Carlson and and others with people like Carlson and and others and, you know, so he gets some and, you know, so he gets some and, you know, so he gets some information. But how would you describe information. But how would you describe information. But how would you describe the difference in Trump's second term the difference in Trump's second term the difference in Trump's second term from his first in terms of what he knows from his first in terms of what he knows from his first in terms of what he knows of the world outside the White House? of the world outside the White House? of the world outside the White House? >> You know, I can't stress enough how >> You know, I can't stress enough how >> You know, I can't stress enough how radically different Trump 2.0 is from radically different Trump 2.0 is from radically different Trump 2.0 is from term [clears throat] one. So, this term [clears throat] one. So, this term [clears throat] one. So, this government is run basically by a half government is run basically by a half government is run basically by a half dozen people who are in the room with dozen people who are in the room with dozen people who are in the room with him. And if you are a senior official in him. And if you are a senior official in him. And if you are a senior official in this government somewhere else, major this government somewhere else, major this government somewhere else, major decisions can get made. And if you're decisions can get made. And if you're decisions can get made. And if you're not in the room, like you literally have not in the room, like you literally have not in the room, like you literally have no idea. The inter agency process in no idea. The inter agency process in no idea. The inter agency process in particular at the National Security particular at the National Security particular at the National Security Council just really doesn't exist the Council just really doesn't exist the Council just really doesn't exist the way it used to. And that was often how way it used to. And that was often how way it used to. And that was often how other agencies would be brought in.

other agencies would be brought in. other agencies would be brought in. That's just not happening now. The That's just not happening now. The That's just not happening now. The comm's process is not quite what it was. comm's process is not quite what it was. comm's process is not quite what it was. It was now it's just sort of pure It was now it's just sort of pure It was now it's just sort of pure trolling. Um and he gets his information trolling. Um and he gets his information trolling. Um and he gets his information as you said from Truth Social. It used as you said from Truth Social. It used as you said from Truth Social. It used to be that he would get on what was to be that he would get on what was to be that he would get on what was known as Twitter and he when he was known as Twitter and he when he was known as Twitter and he when he was president last time and he would look at president last time and he would look at president last time and he would look at the replies and he would look at the the replies and he would look at the the replies and he would look at the trending topics. Uh he would talk to trending topics. Uh he would talk to trending topics. Uh he would talk to more people. He does watch other cable more people. He does watch other cable more people. He does watch other cable channels besides Fox. Um we we learned channels besides Fox. Um we we learned channels besides Fox. Um we we learned recently that he watches um Ms. Now a recently that he watches um Ms. Now a recently that he watches um Ms. Now a lot on the weekends. We Jonathan and I lot on the weekends. We Jonathan and I lot on the weekends. We Jonathan and I learned that as after he appeared to learned that as after he appeared to learned that as after he appeared to have watched one of our appearances have watched one of our appearances have watched one of our appearances talking about the book. Um, so it's a talking about the book. Um, so it's a talking about the book. Um, so it's a little more variegated than it seems, little more variegated than it seems, little more variegated than it seems, but most of the information is coming but most of the information is coming but most of the information is coming from from from Natalie Harp, who's known as the human Natalie Harp, who's known as the human Natalie Harp, who's known as the human printer, from people who know that he printer, from people who know that he printer, from people who know that he wants a constant supply of positive wants a constant supply of positive wants a constant supply of positive reinforcement, and his aids are afraid reinforcement, and his aids are afraid reinforcement, and his aids are afraid of giving him bad news. And I just want of giving him bad news. And I just want of giving him bad news. And I just want to make one other point, Fox is so much to make one other point, Fox is so much to make one other point, Fox is so much less critical of him this term than they less critical of him this term than they less critical of him this term than they were last term. Um, even on the the news were last term. Um, even on the the news were last term. Um, even on the the news shows, it is all shows, it is all shows, it is all pretty positive and especially about the pretty positive and especially about the pretty positive and especially about the war. They are like the last in anything war. They are like the last in anything war. They are like the last in anything that would be considered the MAGA media that would be considered the MAGA media that would be considered the MAGA media ecosystem that is really championing ecosystem that is really championing ecosystem that is really championing this war.

this war. this war. >> We stop the fighting in the ceasefire in >> We stop the fighting in the ceasefire in >> We stop the fighting in the ceasefire in the 20 yard line. We take it into the the 20 yard line. We take it into the the 20 yard line. We take it into the end zone. end zone. end zone. >> Once you start this, there needs to be a >> Once you start this, there needs to be a >> Once you start this, there needs to be a finish. And the only finish is complete finish. And the only finish is complete finish. And the only finish is complete surrender by the Iranians. I hate to say surrender by the Iranians. I hate to say surrender by the Iranians. I hate to say it, but complete annihilation. The it, but complete annihilation. The it, but complete annihilation. The reason this president will go down in reason this president will go down in reason this president will go down in history for a thousand years, the reason history for a thousand years, the reason history for a thousand years, the reason the prime minister of Israel will go the prime minister of Israel will go the prime minister of Israel will go down in history for a thousand years is down in history for a thousand years is down in history for a thousand years is because they saw the danger and they because they saw the danger and they because they saw the danger and they stood up to the danger and they're stood up to the danger and they're stood up to the danger and they're fighting the danger. fighting the danger. fighting the danger. >> So, how much do you think the decisions >> So, how much do you think the decisions >> So, how much do you think the decisions being made reflect an altered being made reflect an altered being made reflect an altered informationational environment for him? informationational environment for him? informationational environment for him? >> Well, it's a it's a great question that >> Well, it's a it's a great question that >> Well, it's a it's a great question that I don't think that we have the full I don't think that we have the full I don't think that we have the full answer to. I mean, one question that answer to. I mean, one question that answer to. I mean, one question that keeps coming up is does he understand keeps coming up is does he understand keeps coming up is does he understand how depleted the US um munitions are how depleted the US um munitions are how depleted the US um munitions are from this war? Now, that's not an from this war? Now, that's not an from this war? Now, that's not an unknowable thing for his own Pentagon unknowable thing for his own Pentagon unknowable thing for his own Pentagon leaders, but I don't know how much leaders, but I don't know how much leaders, but I don't know how much they're telling him. Uh we have a scene they're telling him. Uh we have a scene they're telling him. Uh we have a scene in the book where his advisers, his in the book where his advisers, his in the book where his advisers, his economic adviserss, particularly Howard economic adviserss, particularly Howard economic adviserss, particularly Howard Lutneck are trying to uh uh commerce Lutneck are trying to uh uh commerce Lutneck are trying to uh uh commerce secretary are talking about numbers secretary are talking about numbers secretary are talking about numbers about uh economic numbers and Trump this about uh economic numbers and Trump this about uh economic numbers and Trump this is ahead of the trade war liberation day is ahead of the trade war liberation day is ahead of the trade war liberation day last year and Trump says those are those last year and Trump says those are those last year and Trump says those are those numbers are Natalie get me the numbers are Natalie get me the numbers are Natalie get me the real numbers and so she's googling to real numbers and so she's googling to real numbers and so she's googling to find these numbers. Um there was push find these numbers. Um there was push find these numbers. Um there was push back in this meeting but his willingness back in this meeting but his willingness back in this meeting but his willingness to operate on his own gut and on what he to operate on his own gut and on what he to operate on his own gut and on what he thinks is reality I would say is much

thinks is reality I would say is much thinks is reality I would say is much sharper um this term. sharper um this term. sharper um this term. >> There there's something also tucked in >> There there's something also tucked in >> There there's something also tucked in there which is you describe his meetings there which is you describe his meetings there which is you describe his meetings as having this borderless quality as having this borderless quality as having this borderless quality >> that people are flowing in and out of >> that people are flowing in and out of >> that people are flowing in and out of the White House. It's not necessarily. the White House. It's not necessarily. the White House. It's not necessarily. I'm sure it is sometimes, but you know, I'm sure it is sometimes, but you know, I'm sure it is sometimes, but you know, from 10:15 to 10:45, we're meeting with from 10:15 to 10:45, we're meeting with from 10:15 to 10:45, we're meeting with the joint chiefs. From 10, you know, the joint chiefs. From 10, you know, the joint chiefs. From 10, you know, that ends, they all leave 10:45. that ends, they all leave 10:45. that ends, they all leave 10:45. >> So, can you talk just a bit about that >> So, can you talk just a bit about that >> So, can you talk just a bit about that kind of that free flowing nature because kind of that free flowing nature because kind of that free flowing nature because I think the way he ends up getting I think the way he ends up getting I think the way he ends up getting information, making decisions actually information, making decisions actually information, making decisions actually reflects that, the slightly random reflects that, the slightly random reflects that, the slightly random assemblage of people who might be around assemblage of people who might be around assemblage of people who might be around on a certain issue at a certain time. on a certain issue at a certain time. on a certain issue at a certain time. >> There's no question about that. But it's >> There's no question about that. But it's >> There's no question about that. But it's also um yes that is by his design. Uh also um yes that is by his design. Uh also um yes that is by his design. Uh this White House group of staffers uh is this White House group of staffers uh is this White House group of staffers uh is much more willing to work with that as much more willing to work with that as much more willing to work with that as his preferred state than term one. You his preferred state than term one. You his preferred state than term one. You had Ryan Priebus come in as the first had Ryan Priebus come in as the first had Ryan Priebus come in as the first White House chief of staff in 2017. He White House chief of staff in 2017. He White House chief of staff in 2017. He kept trying to put things on Trump's kept trying to put things on Trump's kept trying to put things on Trump's schedule. First it was we're going to schedule. First it was we're going to schedule. First it was we're going to schedule early meetings to try to get schedule early meetings to try to get schedule early meetings to try to get him to stop tweeting in the morning.

him to stop tweeting in the morning. him to stop tweeting in the morning. Then the meeting started sliding back Then the meeting started sliding back Then the meeting started sliding back and that wasn't working. They tried and that wasn't working. They tried and that wasn't working. They tried monitoring his phone calls. That didn't monitoring his phone calls. That didn't monitoring his phone calls. That didn't work either. Um this has always been a work either. Um this has always been a work either. Um this has always been a facet of Trump is just there's a big facet of Trump is just there's a big facet of Trump is just there's a big long kind of day and sometimes he has long kind of day and sometimes he has long kind of day and sometimes he has all the time in the world but there is all the time in the world but there is all the time in the world but there is no sort of this person cannot come in no sort of this person cannot come in no sort of this person cannot come in there might be certain moments like that there might be certain moments like that there might be certain moments like that or specific meetings but in general he or specific meetings but in general he or specific meetings but in general he does have an open door policy everything does have an open door policy everything does have an open door policy everything becomes this rolling ball session and so becomes this rolling ball session and so becomes this rolling ball session and so I'll give you another for instance in I'll give you another for instance in I'll give you another for instance in the book Laura Loomer comes into this the book Laura Loomer comes into this the book Laura Loomer comes into this meeting in in April um I think it was meeting in in April um I think it was meeting in in April um I think it was liberation day actually and she hands liberation day actually and she hands liberation day actually and she hands him this list of and she had negotiated him this list of and she had negotiated him this list of and she had negotiated this meeting with him directly um of of this meeting with him directly um of of this meeting with him directly um of of uh national security staffers who who uh national security staffers who who uh national security staffers who who she believed were being disloyal to him she believed were being disloyal to him she believed were being disloyal to him and that should be fired and he's and that should be fired and he's and that should be fired and he's listening and you know he acts on it but listening and you know he acts on it but listening and you know he acts on it but in the middle of that meeting um in the middle of that meeting um in the middle of that meeting um Congressman Scott Perry comes in to join Congressman Scott Perry comes in to join Congressman Scott Perry comes in to join with his own list of things that he has with his own list of things that he has with his own list of things that he has an issue with and Trump just has them an issue with and Trump just has them an issue with and Trump just has them there and so yes the focus is whatever there and so yes the focus is whatever there and so yes the focus is whatever is in front of him is in front of him is in front of him >> and he just barks in order at some aid >> and he just barks in order at some aid >> and he just barks in order at some aid and they go off and do it and they go off and do it and they go off and do it >> yes it's just get it done I want it fast >> yes it's just get it done I want it fast >> yes it's just get it done I want it fast fine what'sever in front of his fine what'sever in front of his fine what'sever in front of his Uh you are correct that it does have to Uh you are correct that it does have to Uh you are correct that it does have to do with the attent the the information do with the attent the the information do with the attent the the information he's getting but trying to stop that is he's getting but trying to stop that is he's getting but trying to stop that is also useless because many have tried.

also useless because many have tried. also useless because many have tried. >> This maybe goes back to the the question >> This maybe goes back to the the question >> This maybe goes back to the the question I was circling at the beginning and and I was circling at the beginning and and I was circling at the beginning and and maybe out of steam is not the right way maybe out of steam is not the right way maybe out of steam is not the right way to put it. But I always wonder with him to put it. But I always wonder with him to put it. But I always wonder with him and particularly around reporting like and particularly around reporting like and particularly around reporting like this what picture he has of the way this what picture he has of the way this what picture he has of the way things are going things are going things are going because you know from where I sit his because you know from where I sit his because you know from where I sit his trade war has been a disaster. It is trade war has been a disaster. It is trade war has been a disaster. It is wildly unpopular. It has been shredded wildly unpopular. It has been shredded wildly unpopular. It has been shredded by the Supreme Court. Has made people by the Supreme Court. Has made people by the Supreme Court. Has made people very angry at him and it has very angry at him and it has very angry at him and it has accomplished nothing. We're not seeing a accomplished nothing. We're not seeing a accomplished nothing. We're not seeing a huge resurgence in manufacturing jobs. huge resurgence in manufacturing jobs. huge resurgence in manufacturing jobs. China's not weaker now. I think the China's not weaker now. I think the China's not weaker now. I think the broad and correct view is China's in a broad and correct view is China's in a broad and correct view is China's in a much stronger position today than when much stronger position today than when much stronger position today than when Trump stepped back into the White House. Trump stepped back into the White House. Trump stepped back into the White House. So sort of everything they promised on So sort of everything they promised on So sort of everything they promised on the trade war has not happened and the the trade war has not happened and the the trade war has not happened and the politics of it have been bad. Doge politics of it have been bad. Doge politics of it have been bad. Doge completely collapsed after a couple completely collapsed after a couple completely collapsed after a couple months. It did terrible damage. It did months. It did terrible damage. It did months. It did terrible damage. It did terrible damage. USAD is gutted and terrible damage. USAD is gutted and terrible damage. USAD is gutted and gone. People have died, gone. People have died, gone. People have died, >> but >> but >> but >> it did not then cohhere into what many I >> it did not then cohhere into what many I >> it did not then cohhere into what many I think people thought you might get, think people thought you might get, think people thought you might get, which is like a Doge 2.0 where you know which is like a Doge 2.0 where you know which is like a Doge 2.0 where you know Russ vote and others like actually Russ vote and others like actually Russ vote and others like actually create something institutionalized.

create something institutionalized. create something institutionalized. >> He's not popular. The Iran war I think >> He's not popular. The Iran war I think >> He's not popular. The Iran war I think is not going well. is not going well. is not going well. >> They [snorts] have no legislative agenda >> They [snorts] have no legislative agenda >> They [snorts] have no legislative agenda that I can tell. that I can tell. that I can tell. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> They don't have a affordability agenda >> They don't have a affordability agenda >> They don't have a affordability agenda that makes any sense. But if you're him that makes any sense. But if you're him that makes any sense. But if you're him and you got somebody following you and you got somebody following you and you got somebody following you around all day telling you you're around all day telling you you're around all day telling you you're wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You think the media that is mad at you >> You think the media that is mad at you >> You think the media that is mad at you just has Trump derangement syndrome. just has Trump derangement syndrome. just has Trump derangement syndrome. you're getting presented with uh peace you're getting presented with uh peace you're getting presented with uh peace awards by the head of FIFA. awards by the head of FIFA. awards by the head of FIFA. >> Different CEOs are coming in and >> Different CEOs are coming in and >> Different CEOs are coming in and constantly kissing your ass and telling constantly kissing your ass and telling constantly kissing your ass and telling you how great you are. you how great you are. you how great you are. >> Maybe you don't buy any of it. You have >> Maybe you don't buy any of it. You have >> Maybe you don't buy any of it. You have defied the polls many times. defied the polls many times. defied the polls many times. >> You you just hit on what it is. You've >> You you just hit on what it is. You've >> You you just hit on what it is. You've you're suddenly we've left out one piece you're suddenly we've left out one piece you're suddenly we've left out one piece that we haven't discussed at all that I that we haven't discussed at all that I that we haven't discussed at all that I think we will all be talking about after think we will all be talking about after think we will all be talking about after the midterms a lot, which is the the midterms a lot, which is the the midterms a lot, which is the incredible incredible incredible massive self-deing. uh you are richer if massive self-deing. uh you are richer if massive self-deing. uh you are richer if you are Donald Trump and you spent your you are Donald Trump and you spent your you are Donald Trump and you spent your whole life talking about wealth and whole life talking about wealth and whole life talking about wealth and measuring success through wealth uh and measuring success through wealth uh and measuring success through wealth uh and you are now wealthier liquidwise assets you are now wealthier liquidwise assets you are now wealthier liquidwise assets than you have ever been from an industry than you have ever been from an industry than you have ever been from an industry that you regulate from a company that that you regulate from a company that that you regulate from a company that was created during your campaign that was created during your campaign that was created during your campaign that your sons are running with the sons of your sons are running with the sons of your sons are running with the sons of your special envoy. Um your special envoy. Um your special envoy. Um it's a sentence that it's really was it's a sentence that it's really was it's a sentence that it's really was would have been unimaginable not that would have been unimaginable not that would have been unimaginable not that long ago. Um and you're you're doing it long ago. Um and you're you're doing it long ago. Um and you're you're doing it in Republicans in Congress say nothing in Republicans in Congress say nothing in Republicans in Congress say nothing and the Senate say almost nothing and

and the Senate say almost nothing and and the Senate say almost nothing and voters have only started to care about voters have only started to care about voters have only started to care about some of it in polling I'm seeing and I some of it in polling I'm seeing and I some of it in polling I'm seeing and I honestly think the main reason is less honestly think the main reason is less honestly think the main reason is less the money made although I do think that the money made although I do think that the money made although I do think that that is a factor. It's that they can see that is a factor. It's that they can see that is a factor. It's that they can see visual signs with all of the monuments visual signs with all of the monuments visual signs with all of the monuments and all of the, you know, bla literally and all of the, you know, bla literally and all of the, you know, bla literally blasting through uh longstanding blasting through uh longstanding blasting through uh longstanding um buildings or structures like the east um buildings or structures like the east um buildings or structures like the east wing, planning to build an arch, um wing, planning to build an arch, um wing, planning to build an arch, um putting down drapes so people can't see putting down drapes so people can't see putting down drapes so people can't see your construction projects and so forth. your construction projects and so forth. your construction projects and so forth. Symbols are a lot easier for v voters to Symbols are a lot easier for v voters to Symbols are a lot easier for v voters to understand. Um, and voters tend to think understand. Um, and voters tend to think understand. Um, and voters tend to think all politicians are corrupt, but this is all politicians are corrupt, but this is all politicians are corrupt, but this is different than anything we have ever different than anything we have ever different than anything we have ever seen in the US system. But if you're seen in the US system. But if you're seen in the US system. But if you're him, you have been this kind of walking him, you have been this kind of walking him, you have been this kind of walking moral hazard. Your company almost sank moral hazard. Your company almost sank moral hazard. Your company almost sank in 1991. in 1991. in 1991. And I think people don't understand And I think people don't understand And I think people don't understand how close to ruin he was when his how close to ruin he was when his how close to ruin he was when his casinos were uh [snorts] overleveraged.

casinos were uh [snorts] overleveraged. casinos were uh [snorts] overleveraged. It was across his properties. It wasn't It was across his properties. It wasn't It was across his properties. It wasn't just there. You come back through a just there. You come back through a just there. You come back through a variety of reasons, but partly because variety of reasons, but partly because variety of reasons, but partly because the banks decided it was worth staying the banks decided it was worth staying the banks decided it was worth staying with you and your father helped you. You with you and your father helped you. You with you and your father helped you. You become a reality TV star. You win the become a reality TV star. You win the become a reality TV star. You win the presidency after never having run for presidency after never having run for presidency after never having run for city council before. You are indicted city council before. You are indicted city council before. You are indicted four times. Your opponents keep doing four times. Your opponents keep doing four times. Your opponents keep doing things that are pretty selfharmful. Uh things that are pretty selfharmful. Uh things that are pretty selfharmful. Uh Joe Biden has a pretty non-spectacular Joe Biden has a pretty non-spectacular Joe Biden has a pretty non-spectacular last two years at minimum of his term. last two years at minimum of his term. last two years at minimum of his term. uh you are shot at, you survive. You uh you are shot at, you survive. You uh you are shot at, you survive. You have take on this mystical quality with have take on this mystical quality with have take on this mystical quality with your f not just your followers but with your f not just your followers but with your f not just your followers but with your adviserss who refer to him or then your adviserss who refer to him or then your adviserss who refer to him or then anyway would refer to him as the chosen anyway would refer to him as the chosen anyway would refer to him as the chosen one. Um only semi- joking in some cases one. Um only semi- joking in some cases one. Um only semi- joking in some cases and you believe everything works out for and you believe everything works out for and you believe everything works out for you which is literally what he said to you which is literally what he said to you which is literally what he said to Tucker Carlson. You know why the Iran Tucker Carlson. You know why the Iran Tucker Carlson. You know why the Iran war is going to work out? Things are war is going to work out? Things are war is going to work out? Things are going to work out because they always going to work out because they always going to work out because they always do. And so you believe that your reality do. And so you believe that your reality do. And so you believe that your reality is better than what experts have been is better than what experts have been is better than what experts have been telling you. He thinks the economy is telling you. He thinks the economy is telling you. He thinks the economy is boring. He literally will tell advisers boring. He literally will tell advisers boring. He literally will tell advisers he finds this boring to talk about. He he finds this boring to talk about. He he finds this boring to talk about. He wants to talk about immigrants, you wants to talk about immigrants, you wants to talk about immigrants, you know, committing rapes or murdering know, committing rapes or murdering know, committing rapes or murdering people or committing crimes. Um, and people or committing crimes. Um, and people or committing crimes. Um, and he's going to do what he wants to do.

he's going to do what he wants to do. he's going to do what he wants to do. And he is, look, he obviously doesn't And he is, look, he obviously doesn't And he is, look, he obviously doesn't want to be impeached again. But when you want to be impeached again. But when you want to be impeached again. But when you have to say again unimpeached, it have to say again unimpeached, it have to say again unimpeached, it stuff's mattering as much sort of I stuff's mattering as much sort of I stuff's mattering as much sort of I think to some extent in his head. It's think to some extent in his head. It's think to some extent in his head. It's also not even the first again. also not even the first again. also not even the first again. >> Well, that's exactly correct. It would >> Well, that's exactly correct. It would >> Well, that's exactly correct. It would be again three. Um, and so again, well, be again three. Um, and so again, well, be again three. Um, and so again, well, again, two, I guess. Um, he's already again, two, I guess. Um, he's already again, two, I guess. Um, he's already told people that he's going to pardon told people that he's going to pardon told people that he's going to pardon everyone who walks in. You know, we everyone who walks in. You know, we everyone who walks in. You know, we write about this in the book, who's come write about this in the book, who's come write about this in the book, who's come within a certain radius of the Oval within a certain radius of the Oval within a certain radius of the Oval Office, and he has an immunity ruling Office, and he has an immunity ruling Office, and he has an immunity ruling from the Supreme Court that it's from the Supreme Court that it's from the Supreme Court that it's [snorts] still not entirely clear what [snorts] still not entirely clear what [snorts] still not entirely clear what would qualify as a presidential act would qualify as a presidential act would qualify as a presidential act where he has no criminal uh exposure, where he has no criminal uh exposure, where he has no criminal uh exposure, but I suspect it would be most of them but I suspect it would be most of them but I suspect it would be most of them if it was pressed. So if you were him, if it was pressed. So if you were him, if it was pressed. So if you were him, yes, it this moment could be very bad yes, it this moment could be very bad yes, it this moment could be very bad for other Republicans, but he's not that for other Republicans, but he's not that for other Republicans, but he's not that worried for himself. worried for himself. worried for himself. >> Let me ask you about the corruption >> Let me ask you about the corruption >> Let me ask you about the corruption dimension of this. So when you talk to dimension of this. So when you talk to dimension of this. So when you talk to Republicans off the record, Republicans off the record, Republicans off the record, often they will admit they know that we often they will admit they know that we often they will admit they know that we are dealing with a level of corruption are dealing with a level of corruption are dealing with a level of corruption that is majestic in its grandeur that is majestic in its grandeur that is majestic in its grandeur >> that is like nothing we've really seen >> that is like nothing we've really seen >> that is like nothing we've really seen before. It's not it's not even a before. It's not it's not even a before. It's not it's not even a debatable point when you debatable point when you debatable point when you >> not debatable point.

>> not debatable point. >> not debatable point. >> One thing I hear people say all the time >> One thing I hear people say all the time >> One thing I hear people say all the time um in the media elsewhere just voters, um in the media elsewhere just voters, um in the media elsewhere just voters, Democrats, is any one of these stories Democrats, is any one of these stories Democrats, is any one of these stories would have consumed Washington at would have consumed Washington at would have consumed Washington at another time. another time. another time. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Would have sunk another presidency. >> Would have sunk another presidency. >> Would have sunk another presidency. >> You think of, you know, travel gate and >> You think of, you know, travel gate and >> You think of, you know, travel gate and pig futures in the Clinton pig futures in the Clinton pig futures in the Clinton administration. You think of the, you administration. You think of the, you administration. You think of the, you know, the Trump um cabinet member who know, the Trump um cabinet member who know, the Trump um cabinet member who had to resign. I think it was Andy had to resign. I think it was Andy had to resign. I think it was Andy Price. Price. Price. >> Yeah. Tom Price, I think. >> Yeah. Tom Price, I think. >> Yeah. Tom Price, I think. >> Tom Price for what was it? Taken charter >> Tom Price for what was it? Taken charter >> Tom Price for what was it? Taken charter jets. jets. jets. >> He was using jets. Yes. And we we have >> He was using jets. Yes. And we we have >> He was using jets. Yes. And we we have referenced that in the book actually. referenced that in the book actually. referenced that in the book actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Why is it >> Why is it >> Why is it that stories that would have consumed that stories that would have consumed that stories that would have consumed Washington even would have been a Washington even would have been a Washington even would have been a problem for, you know, members of the problem for, you know, members of the problem for, you know, members of the Trump administration another time seem Trump administration another time seem Trump administration another time seem to slide off of him. Right? There's to slide off of him. Right? There's to slide off of him. Right? There's great reporting being done at the New great reporting being done at the New great reporting being done at the New York Times, at the New Yorker, at other York Times, at the New Yorker, at other York Times, at the New Yorker, at other places. You know, we know a lot, right? places. You know, we know a lot, right? places. You know, we know a lot, right? >> We have numbers now that we didn't used >> We have numbers now that we didn't used >> We have numbers now that we didn't used to have. to have. to have. >> But why has he been able to flood the >> But why has he been able to flood the >> But why has he been able to flood the zone on corruption and then escape the zone on corruption and then escape the zone on corruption and then escape the consequences it would have attached to consequences it would have attached to consequences it would have attached to another administration?

another administration? another administration? >> Well, there I would break that down a >> Well, there I would break that down a >> Well, there I would break that down a little bit. So what you're describing in little bit. So what you're describing in little bit. So what you're describing in terms of consequences from what you just terms of consequences from what you just terms of consequences from what you just ticked through was primarily the ticked through was primarily the ticked through was primarily the consequences of a news cycle, the consequences of a news cycle, the consequences of a news cycle, the consequences of public information. And consequences of public information. And consequences of public information. And number one, I think that at this point, number one, I think that at this point, number one, I think that at this point, if you are a journalist and you get into if you are a journalist and you get into if you are a journalist and you get into journalism journalism journalism in the hopes that or the or I shouldn't in the hopes that or the or I shouldn't in the hopes that or the or I shouldn't say hopes, in the expectation that what say hopes, in the expectation that what say hopes, in the expectation that what you write is going to force an outcome you write is going to force an outcome you write is going to force an outcome and that that is your that is your end, and that that is your that is your end, and that that is your that is your end, you're going to be disappointed very you're going to be disappointed very you're going to be disappointed very very often because it is a totally very often because it is a totally very often because it is a totally different media landscape because there different media landscape because there different media landscape because there this choose your own adventure this choose your own adventure this choose your own adventure partisanship really actually allows partisanship really actually allows partisanship really actually allows people to just hear what they want to people to just hear what they want to people to just hear what they want to hear. Number one. Number two, um, you hear. Number one. Number two, um, you hear. Number one. Number two, um, you know, we don't have we don't have know, we don't have we don't have know, we don't have we don't have subpoena powers, right? We can only subpoena powers, right? We can only subpoena powers, right? We can only write up to what we know. In the past, write up to what we know. In the past, write up to what we know. In the past, investigations would have been done by investigations would have been done by investigations would have been done by the inspector's general. He's fired the inspector's general. He's fired the inspector's general. He's fired inspectors general at the start of his inspectors general at the start of his inspectors general at the start of his term. They would have been done by term. They would have been done by term. They would have been done by Congress on a bipartisan level uh basis.

Congress on a bipartisan level uh basis. Congress on a bipartisan level uh basis. Everything is tribal now, like beyond Everything is tribal now, like beyond Everything is tribal now, like beyond anything we have seen in the past. It anything we have seen in the past. It anything we have seen in the past. It was pretty bad before in terms of was pretty bad before in terms of was pretty bad before in terms of partisanship. Um partisanship. Um partisanship. Um uh the House GOP acts like an arm of the uh the House GOP acts like an arm of the uh the House GOP acts like an arm of the the Trump administration. the Trump administration. the Trump administration. The Republican House members uh and some The Republican House members uh and some The Republican House members uh and some senators, they still look at him as a senators, they still look at him as a senators, they still look at him as a celebrity. Yes, there is obviously a celebrity. Yes, there is obviously a celebrity. Yes, there is obviously a fear factor. He has shown he is willing fear factor. He has shown he is willing fear factor. He has shown he is willing to destroy their careers and really to destroy their careers and really to destroy their careers and really humiliate them. humiliate them. humiliate them. But the way that they grown men, you But the way that they grown men, you But the way that they grown men, you know, he'll take chocolate bars out of know, he'll take chocolate bars out of know, he'll take chocolate bars out of the what they call the chum closet that the what they call the chum closet that the what they call the chum closet that has the presidential merch or whatever. has the presidential merch or whatever. has the presidential merch or whatever. Um and he'll like throw them. them. It's Um and he'll like throw them. them. It's Um and he'll like throw them. them. It's like Hershey bars. And these are house like Hershey bars. And these are house like Hershey bars. And these are house members who are like, "Ooh, me." They, members who are like, "Ooh, me." They, members who are like, "Ooh, me." They, you know, they love being on Air Force you know, they love being on Air Force you know, they love being on Air Force One with him. And One with him. And One with him. And >> the House member gushing that he knew >> the House member gushing that he knew >> the House member gushing that he knew his first name. his first name. his first name. >> Yes. Correct. It's this celebrity is >> Yes. Correct. It's this celebrity is >> Yes. Correct. It's this celebrity is talking to me. Not this president. This talking to me. Not this president. This talking to me. Not this president. This celebrity. I watched The Apprentice. I celebrity. I watched The Apprentice. I celebrity. I watched The Apprentice. I knew Donald Trump. So that's one reason knew Donald Trump. So that's one reason knew Donald Trump. So that's one reason why. The other is he has been why. The other is he has been why. The other is he has been investigated since almost the second he investigated since almost the second he investigated since almost the second he stepped actually literally the second he stepped actually literally the second he stepped actually literally the second he stepped into office in 2017. So I think stepped into office in 2017. So I think stepped into office in 2017. So I think there is a flattening effect with the there is a flattening effect with the there is a flattening effect with the public in terms of their expectation.

public in terms of their expectation. public in terms of their expectation. At a certain point it all becomes one, At a certain point it all becomes one, At a certain point it all becomes one, you know, Trump would smear it that way. you know, Trump would smear it that way. you know, Trump would smear it that way. Witch hunt. Explaining to people that Witch hunt. Explaining to people that Witch hunt. Explaining to people that there is new information is I think a there is new information is I think a there is new information is I think a challenge for journalists across the challenge for journalists across the challenge for journalists across the board. All of that are in his favor. board. All of that are in his favor. board. All of that are in his favor. There is not one single reason why. And There is not one single reason why. And There is not one single reason why. And I don't think there will ever be another I don't think there will ever be another I don't think there will ever be another politician who will have this same politician who will have this same politician who will have this same experience as he does, but we'll see. experience as he does, but we'll see. experience as he does, but we'll see. >> Do you think that changes if Democrats >> Do you think that changes if Democrats >> Do you think that changes if Democrats get subpoena power? get subpoena power? get subpoena power? Uh, no I don't because I think that if Uh, no I don't because I think that if Uh, no I don't because I think that if you are Donald Trump and you can pardon you are Donald Trump and you can pardon you are Donald Trump and you can pardon everyone around you and you can instruct everyone around you and you can instruct everyone around you and you can instruct your entire government not to respond to your entire government not to respond to your entire government not to respond to subpoenas with anything timely and only subpoenas with anything timely and only subpoenas with anything timely and only do it once the final stop in a court do it once the final stop in a court do it once the final stop in a court challenge makes you I mean look Trump's challenge makes you I mean look Trump's challenge makes you I mean look Trump's whole thing is waiting people out and we whole thing is waiting people out and we whole thing is waiting people out and we have seen this over and over and over have seen this over and over and over have seen this over and over and over again. So there are um a number of again. So there are um a number of again. So there are um a number of members of his government and I talked members of his government and I talked members of his government and I talked about how radicalized they all are who about how radicalized they all are who about how radicalized they all are who do believe that they are going to be not do believe that they are going to be not do believe that they are going to be not just subpoenaed but prosecuted. And I'm just subpoenaed but prosecuted. And I'm just subpoenaed but prosecuted. And I'm not just talking about when the house not just talking about when the house not just talking about when the house flips. I'm talking about under a flips. I'm talking about under a flips. I'm talking about under a Democratic presidency.

Democratic presidency. Democratic presidency. They genuinely believe and I'm not They genuinely believe and I'm not They genuinely believe and I'm not endorsing this view. I'm just saying endorsing this view. I'm just saying endorsing this view. I'm just saying this is their perspective. um you know this is their perspective. um you know this is their perspective. um you know we are going to be indicted by um you we are going to be indicted by um you we are going to be indicted by um you know an an an illegitimate hunter of the know an an an illegitimate hunter of the know an an an illegitimate hunter of the Democrats at some point they are going Democrats at some point they are going Democrats at some point they are going to come after us when we are out of to come after us when we are out of to come after us when we are out of power you know so we are going to do power you know so we are going to do power you know so we are going to do everything we can that is entirely the everything we can that is entirely the everything we can that is entirely the mindset they have the same hunted mindset they have the same hunted mindset they have the same hunted mentality that he does um I don't think mentality that he does um I don't think mentality that he does um I don't think it's I just think that people who think it's I just think that people who think it's I just think that people who think that the house is going to flip and this that the house is going to flip and this that the house is going to flip and this is going to look like it did in 2019 is going to look like it did in 2019 is going to look like it did in 2019 I'm struggling to see that I I could be I'm struggling to see that I I could be I'm struggling to see that I I could be wrong, but what happens when they issue wrong, but what happens when they issue wrong, but what happens when they issue contempt of Congress subpoenas and they contempt of Congress subpoenas and they contempt of Congress subpoenas and they send [snorts] them to Attorney General send [snorts] them to Attorney General send [snorts] them to Attorney General Todd Blanch? Does he rush to start an Todd Blanch? Does he rush to start an Todd Blanch? Does he rush to start an investigation? Like, I I just don't know investigation? Like, I I just don't know investigation? Like, I I just don't know what this looks like. Um, but I don't what this looks like. Um, but I don't what this looks like. Um, but I don't see it looking like anything we've seen see it looking like anything we've seen see it looking like anything we've seen before. A Democratic strategist said to before. A Democratic strategist said to before. A Democratic strategist said to me in 2016, right after Trump won, that me in 2016, right after Trump won, that me in 2016, right after Trump won, that the entire country was about to finally the entire country was about to finally the entire country was about to finally understand how much of our system is understand how much of our system is understand how much of our system is norms and not laws. norms and not laws. norms and not laws. >> And fundamentally, I still come back to >> And fundamentally, I still come back to >> And fundamentally, I still come back to that every time. If you have somebody that every time. If you have somebody that every time. If you have somebody who is willing to violate every norm by who is willing to violate every norm by who is willing to violate every norm by I mean I'm really every norm. I don't I mean I'm really every norm. I don't I mean I'm really every norm. I don't think I can think of one that he I'm think I can think of one that he I'm think I can think of one that he I'm sure there's something but it's hard not sure there's something but it's hard not sure there's something but it's hard not it's hard to go down the list and find it's hard to go down the list and find it's hard to go down the list and find something that is still firmly in place.

something that is still firmly in place. something that is still firmly in place. We have a president who cheered when We have a president who cheered when We have a president who cheered when Robert Mueller died. Um he he cheered Robert Mueller died. Um he he cheered Robert Mueller died. Um he he cheered when Rob Reiner was killed by his own when Rob Reiner was killed by his own when Rob Reiner was killed by his own son according to prosecutors. um he is son according to prosecutors. um he is son according to prosecutors. um he is making a ton of money and they're almost making a ton of money and they're almost making a ton of money and they're almost they're very blasze about it. Um you they're very blasze about it. Um you they're very blasze about it. Um you know they will say this is there's no know they will say this is there's no know they will say this is there's no corruption here as they continue doing corruption here as they continue doing corruption here as they continue doing what they're doing. They're about to what they're doing. They're about to what they're doing. They're about to start trying to monetize his truth start trying to monetize his truth start trying to monetize his truth social posts for advanced notice. It's a social posts for advanced notice. It's a social posts for advanced notice. It's a it's a recipe. Can you talk through that it's a recipe. Can you talk through that it's a recipe. Can you talk through that for a minute cuz that that the truth for a minute cuz that that the truth for a minute cuz that that the truth social uh the social uh the social uh the >> I know [clears throat] it's like it's >> I know [clears throat] it's like it's >> I know [clears throat] it's like it's hard to describe because I remember hard to describe because I remember hard to describe because I remember >> trying to monetize they're trying to >> trying to monetize they're trying to >> trying to monetize they're trying to monetize um rapid trading monetize um rapid trading monetize um rapid trading >> correct >> correct >> correct >> on True Social, but but can you explain >> on True Social, but but can you explain >> on True Social, but but can you explain how how how >> Yes. What they're trying to do is sell >> Yes. What they're trying to do is sell >> Yes. What they're trying to do is sell for very very high dollar amounts. I for very very high dollar amounts. I for very very high dollar amounts. I think it's like $100,000 think it's like $100,000 think it's like $100,000 >> advanced notification of Trump's truth >> advanced notification of Trump's truth >> advanced notification of Trump's truth posts because they can move markets and posts because they can move markets and posts because they can move markets and do move markets. do move markets. do move markets. It seems It seems It seems ripe for even if even if it's not ripe for even if even if it's not ripe for even if even if it's not violating a law for Trump because violating a law for Trump because violating a law for Trump because presidents are actually not held to the presidents are actually not held to the presidents are actually not held to the same ethical standards and laws um uh same ethical standards and laws um uh same ethical standards and laws um uh and regulations as their staff. I mean, and regulations as their staff. I mean, and regulations as their staff. I mean, how does this not become something else?

how does this not become something else? how does this not become something else? So anyway, So anyway, So anyway, >> well, it it goes to something I think in >> well, it it goes to something I think in >> well, it it goes to something I think in what you were just talking about, which what you were just talking about, which what you were just talking about, which is I think the deep answer to the is I think the deep answer to the is I think the deep answer to the question we were just discussing is question we were just discussing is question we were just discussing is Republicans. Republicans. Republicans. >> It's it's the it's the fundamental >> It's it's the it's the fundamental >> It's it's the it's the fundamental answer answer answer >> on some level, right? Like in other >> on some level, right? Like in other >> on some level, right? Like in other administrations, administrations, administrations, >> even your co-partisans on something like >> even your co-partisans on something like >> even your co-partisans on something like this would say no. Now, arguably this would say no. Now, arguably this would say no. Now, arguably Republicans did that a bit on the IRS Republicans did that a bit on the IRS Republicans did that a bit on the IRS slushf fund. slushf fund. slushf fund. >> It was I mean that was so brazen that it >> It was I mean that was so brazen that it >> It was I mean that was so brazen that it was a little hard um not to have was a little hard um not to have was a little hard um not to have problems with it. And I actually I don't problems with it. And I actually I don't problems with it. And I actually I don't even remember if had the judge already even remember if had the judge already even remember if had the judge already raised questions about that once they raised questions about that once they raised questions about that once they did. Did that give them cover? I don't did. Did that give them cover? I don't did. Did that give them cover? I don't even remember. But but yes, I mean this even remember. But but yes, I mean this even remember. But but yes, I mean this was this was you're taking taxpayer was this was you're taking taxpayer was this was you're taking taxpayer money and doing this. It's the taxpayer money and doing this. It's the taxpayer money and doing this. It's the taxpayer money. a lot of how not just money. a lot of how not just money. a lot of how not just accountability but investigation worked accountability but investigation worked accountability but investigation worked in Washington in Washington in Washington >> was it I mean either the other side was >> was it I mean either the other side was >> was it I mean either the other side was in power so they were able to structure in power so they were able to structure in power so they were able to structure investigation and that the agencies are investigation and that the agencies are investigation and that the agencies are run more professionally the department run more professionally the department run more professionally the department of justice run more independently and so of justice run more independently and so of justice run more independently and so they responded to investigation and they responded to investigation and they responded to investigation and responded to subpoenas responded to subpoenas responded to subpoenas >> and that creates a >> and that creates a >> and that creates a >> structure of and a sequencing of >> structure of and a sequencing of >> structure of and a sequencing of information coming out and you know information coming out and you know information coming out and you know possible consequences and people being possible consequences and people being possible consequences and people being hauled before Congress and Each one is a hauled before Congress and Each one is a hauled before Congress and Each one is a new news story new news story new news story >> and that's how you get the connection of >> and that's how you get the connection of >> and that's how you get the connection of like a congressional like a congressional like a congressional >> operation and like media coverage that >> operation and like media coverage that >> operation and like media coverage that people understand is a scandal.

people understand is a scandal. people understand is a scandal. >> Yes. Well, that is true. I mean, >> Yes. Well, that is true. I mean, >> Yes. Well, that is true. I mean, >> that's how it works. And right, >> that's how it works. And right, >> that's how it works. And right, Republicans just are not going to do Republicans just are not going to do Republicans just are not going to do that. that. that. >> No, they're not. Um, you know, the >> No, they're not. Um, you know, the >> No, they're not. Um, you know, the closest that they have come would have closest that they have come would have closest that they have come would have been, and I am really stretching the been, and I am really stretching the been, and I am really stretching the word closest here, so just roll with me word closest here, so just roll with me word closest here, so just roll with me for a second. But before you say this is for a second. But before you say this is for a second. But before you say this is absolutely not at all parallel, cuz I'm absolutely not at all parallel, cuz I'm absolutely not at all parallel, cuz I'm not saying it is, but the closest would not saying it is, but the closest would not saying it is, but the closest would have been have been have been some of what they were doing around some of what they were doing around some of what they were doing around Epstein, but of course that took a Epstein, but of course that took a Epstein, but of course that took a detour to the Clintons and all kinds of detour to the Clintons and all kinds of detour to the Clintons and all kinds of other stuff. Um, and by that I just mean other stuff. Um, and by that I just mean other stuff. Um, and by that I just mean James Comr's committee initially, uh, James Comr's committee initially, uh, James Comr's committee initially, uh, which was filing a subpoena to Pam Bondi which was filing a subpoena to Pam Bondi which was filing a subpoena to Pam Bondi that the administration [clears throat] that the administration [clears throat] that the administration [clears throat] was not happy with. And then they slow was not happy with. And then they slow was not happy with. And then they slow rolled that. But no, there's no there's rolled that. But no, there's no there's rolled that. But no, there's no there's no analog. I mean, if you look back at no analog. I mean, if you look back at no analog. I mean, if you look back at the last real effort that attempted to the last real effort that attempted to the last real effort that attempted to be moderately bipartisan, it would have be moderately bipartisan, it would have be moderately bipartisan, it would have been the J6 committee and uh the select been the J6 committee and uh the select been the J6 committee and uh the select committee that was investigating what committee that was investigating what committee that was investigating what happened uh in the leadup to the January happened uh in the leadup to the January happened uh in the leadup to the January 6th riot at the capital and Trump's 6th riot at the capital and Trump's 6th riot at the capital and Trump's efforts to overturn the election. But efforts to overturn the election. But efforts to overturn the election. But even that devolved into partisan even that devolved into partisan even that devolved into partisan politics and so there you have it.

politics and so there you have it. politics and so there you have it. >> It was striking to me how small of a >> It was striking to me how small of a >> It was striking to me how small of a role Congress played in this book. role Congress played in this book. role Congress played in this book. Uh, well, there's a couple of reasons. Uh, well, there's a couple of reasons. Uh, well, there's a couple of reasons. It's a good it's a it's a it's a point, It's a good it's a it's a it's a point, It's a good it's a it's a it's a point, but the reality is that Congress plays a but the reality is that Congress plays a but the reality is that Congress plays a supplicant role. We did talk about that. supplicant role. We did talk about that. supplicant role. We did talk about that. We talked about Mike Johnson's role with We talked about Mike Johnson's role with We talked about Mike Johnson's role with Trump and how incredibly unusual it is Trump and how incredibly unusual it is Trump and how incredibly unusual it is historically. There's just there has not historically. There's just there has not historically. There's just there has not been a relationship like this between a been a relationship like this between a been a relationship like this between a house speaker and a president that I can house speaker and a president that I can house speaker and a president that I can think of where it's literally give me my think of where it's literally give me my think of where it's literally give me my marching orders this way. That is not marching orders this way. That is not marching orders this way. That is not about policy. It's about just whatever about policy. It's about just whatever about policy. It's about just whatever you want it to be. But the reality is you want it to be. But the reality is you want it to be. But the reality is there is no legislative agenda. As you there is no legislative agenda. As you there is no legislative agenda. As you said, there was the one big beautiful said, there was the one big beautiful said, there was the one big beautiful bill and we did talk about that and we bill and we did talk about that and we bill and we did talk about that and we do get into what went into that, but do get into what went into that, but do get into what went into that, but this administration knew that it was this administration knew that it was this administration knew that it was never going to be able to do much never going to be able to do much never going to be able to do much legislatively. legislatively. legislatively. Um, but this again goes to me to to this Um, but this again goes to me to to this Um, but this again goes to me to to this question of what is actually being built question of what is actually being built question of what is actually being built here versus what is just kind of here versus what is just kind of here versus what is just kind of >> collapsing or being like left alone >> collapsing or being like left alone >> collapsing or being like left alone >> on even a lot of these issues. Okay, so >> on even a lot of these issues. Okay, so >> on even a lot of these issues. Okay, so the big beautiful bill did pass. It's a the big beautiful bill did pass. It's a the big beautiful bill did pass. It's a big change and you know as the actual big change and you know as the actual big change and you know as the actual changes to Medicaid and food stamps and changes to Medicaid and food stamps and changes to Medicaid and food stamps and other things were a lot of things that other things were a lot of things that other things were a lot of things that have a lot of have a lot of have a lot of >> um political upheaval around that.

>> um political upheaval around that. >> um political upheaval around that. >> Yes. And there will be more focus and >> Yes. And there will be more focus and >> Yes. And there will be more focus and there will be more coverage and there will be more coverage and there will be more coverage and interest. I agree with that. interest. I agree with that. interest. I agree with that. >> Look, their trade agenda got gutted. >> Look, their trade agenda got gutted. >> Look, their trade agenda got gutted. >> They could have gone to Republicans in >> They could have gone to Republicans in >> They could have gone to Republicans in Congress to get more power on tariffs. Congress to get more power on tariffs. Congress to get more power on tariffs. They chose not to do that. Would They chose not to do that. Would They chose not to do that. Would Republicans Congress keep them from ever Republicans Congress keep them from ever Republicans Congress keep them from ever changing the filibuster? changing the filibuster? changing the filibuster? >> I don't know. like they've been kind of >> I don't know. like they've been kind of >> I don't know. like they've been kind of tough on that but they've also like tough on that but they've also like tough on that but they've also like nicked it around the edges a little nicked it around the edges a little nicked it around the edges a little >> a little >> a little >> a little >> immigration um they have done a >> immigration um they have done a >> immigration um they have done a tremendous amount immigration I think of tremendous amount immigration I think of tremendous amount immigration I think of everything you can look at they have everything you can look at they have everything you can look at they have done the most on immigration done the most on immigration done the most on immigration >> correct >> correct >> correct >> what they have not done is change the >> what they have not done is change the >> what they have not done is change the laws laws laws >> well because that takes time I mean this >> well because that takes time I mean this >> well because that takes time I mean this isn't complicated this is isn't complicated this is isn't complicated this is >> but it also means that another >> but it also means that another >> but it also means that another administration can administration can administration can >> I understand that but they also assume >> I understand that but they also assume >> I understand that but they also assume that's going to happen regardless I mean that's going to happen regardless I mean that's going to happen regardless I mean I think that just to try to explain the I think that just to try to explain the I think that just to try to explain the mindset here mindset here mindset here >> um the person who spent the most time >> um the person who spent the most time >> um the person who spent the most time and I'm glad you brought up immigration. and I'm glad you brought up immigration. and I'm glad you brought up immigration. The person who has spent the most time The person who has spent the most time The person who has spent the most time thinking about a Trump 2.0 know and not thinking about a Trump 2.0 know and not thinking about a Trump 2.0 know and not just from the perspective of of just from the perspective of of just from the perspective of of immigration but obviously that's his immigration but obviously that's his immigration but obviously that's his driving issue and defining issue is driving issue and defining issue is driving issue and defining issue is Steven Miller and he spent four years Steven Miller and he spent four years Steven Miller and he spent four years focused on focused on focused on not just what he wanted to do not just what he wanted to do not just what he wanted to do differently this time to be more of I differently this time to be more of I differently this time to be more of I mean you know the initial Muslim ban was mean you know the initial Muslim ban was mean you know the initial Muslim ban was a disaster um and a court challenged a disaster um and a court challenged a disaster um and a court challenged disaster and it was poorly written and disaster and it was poorly written and disaster and it was poorly written and so forth in 2017 and it it created mass so forth in 2017 and it it created mass so forth in 2017 and it it created mass chaos on flights and so forth. Steven chaos on flights and so forth. Steven chaos on flights and so forth. Steven Miller spent four years looking at how Miller spent four years looking at how Miller spent four years looking at how far the law could go on a number of far the law could go on a number of far the law could go on a number of things. What was in the executive things. What was in the executive things. What was in the executive branch's control, what could be claimed branch's control, what could be claimed branch's control, what could be claimed as an executive branch power, which as an executive branch power, which as an executive branch power, which they've done a lot. And they've gotten

they've done a lot. And they've gotten they've done a lot. And they've gotten caught in courts on this, as you know, caught in courts on this, as you know, caught in courts on this, as you know, and that's sort of part of what you're and that's sort of part of what you're and that's sort of part of what you're saying, I think, is if you don't want to saying, I think, is if you don't want to saying, I think, is if you don't want to have a big court fight, go work through have a big court fight, go work through have a big court fight, go work through the actual process. They would rather the actual process. They would rather the actual process. They would rather have a big court fight because if you go have a big court fight because if you go have a big court fight because if you go through the process, it's going to move through the process, it's going to move through the process, it's going to move slowly. and their gamble is that they slowly. and their gamble is that they slowly. and their gamble is that they can win much of the time. Not every can win much of the time. Not every can win much of the time. Not every time. The trade agenda was a calamity time. The trade agenda was a calamity time. The trade agenda was a calamity for a variety of reasons, but it wasn't for a variety of reasons, but it wasn't for a variety of reasons, but it wasn't just because they didn't go to Congress. just because they didn't go to Congress. just because they didn't go to Congress. It was because the formula made no It was because the formula made no It was because the formula made no goddamn sense. goddamn sense. goddamn sense. >> But Doge is another example where Doge >> But Doge is another example where Doge >> But Doge is another example where Doge is a great example. is a great example. is a great example. >> To do what they wanted to do, you >> To do what they wanted to do, you >> To do what they wanted to do, you actually need to do civil service actually need to do civil service actually need to do civil service reform. reform. reform. >> And they've done a little bit of that, >> And they've done a little bit of that, >> And they've done a little bit of that, but it's not civil service reform. but it's not civil service reform. but it's not civil service reform. Correct. Yes. Correct. Yes. Correct. Yes. >> But that's not again who this actually >> But that's not again who this actually >> But that's not again who this actually gets to a different problem. They don't gets to a different problem. They don't gets to a different problem. They don't all there's no there isn't a they all there's no there isn't a they all there's no there isn't a they actually they don't total they don't all actually they don't total they don't all actually they don't total they don't all work in harmony even though they work in harmony even though they work in harmony even though they collectively want the same thing which collectively want the same thing which collectively want the same thing which is crush the left expand our power focus is crush the left expand our power focus is crush the left expand our power focus on a a specific set of issues and we've on a a specific set of issues and we've on a a specific set of issues and we've gone over many of them on this show but gone over many of them on this show but gone over many of them on this show but Russ vote actually understands how Russ vote actually understands how Russ vote actually understands how government works Elon Musk did not he government works Elon Musk did not he government works Elon Musk did not he just came in and started punching just came in and started punching just came in and started punching through walls um in some cases literally through walls um in some cases literally through walls um in some cases literally you know physical aspects were impacted you know physical aspects were impacted you know physical aspects were impacted by by how he handles things. That is by by how he handles things. That is by by how he handles things. That is different also than how Steven Miller different also than how Steven Miller different also than how Steven Miller wants to handle certain things. And so wants to handle certain things. And so wants to handle certain things. And so that creates its own internal crash.

that creates its own internal crash. that creates its own internal crash. Then add Congress to that as a layer. Then add Congress to that as a layer. Then add Congress to that as a layer. It's hard to see. It's hard to see. It's hard to see. >> Has there been a shift in who holds >> Has there been a shift in who holds >> Has there been a shift in who holds power in the court in the last year? power in the court in the last year? power in the court in the last year? >> Yes, but it can change quite rapidly. >> Yes, but it can change quite rapidly. >> Yes, but it can change quite rapidly. Marco Rubio had a lot of capital with Marco Rubio had a lot of capital with Marco Rubio had a lot of capital with Trump um for a long time. I think still Trump um for a long time. I think still Trump um for a long time. I think still does, but he is really not that involved does, but he is really not that involved does, but he is really not that involved in the Iran issue. um he is in the Iran issue. um he is in the Iran issue. um he is >> because Trump doesn't want him or >> because Trump doesn't want him or >> because Trump doesn't want him or because he doesn't want to be near it. because he doesn't want to be near it. because he doesn't want to be near it. >> I I think it's more the latter. >> I I think it's more the latter. >> I I think it's more the latter. Honestly, I think that Trump would Honestly, I think that Trump would Honestly, I think that Trump would welcome his um involvement more, but and welcome his um involvement more, but and welcome his um involvement more, but and he may get more involved now, but uh we he may get more involved now, but uh we he may get more involved now, but uh we you know, he's been talking about it a you know, he's been talking about it a you know, he's been talking about it a little bit more, but uh I think that little bit more, but uh I think that little bit more, but uh I think that Rubio, if you strapped him to a Rubio, if you strapped him to a Rubio, if you strapped him to a polygraph, this is not where he wants polygraph, this is not where he wants polygraph, this is not where he wants things to be. Um Susie Wilds is still things to be. Um Susie Wilds is still things to be. Um Susie Wilds is still hugely influential. Steven Miller, hugely influential. Steven Miller, hugely influential. Steven Miller, despite these stories about how he was despite these stories about how he was despite these stories about how he was getting his wings clipped and whatever getting his wings clipped and whatever getting his wings clipped and whatever after Renee Good and Alex Freddy were after Renee Good and Alex Freddy were after Renee Good and Alex Freddy were killed in Minnesota, that was vastly killed in Minnesota, that was vastly killed in Minnesota, that was vastly overstated. The showy displays of, you overstated. The showy displays of, you overstated. The showy displays of, you know, repelling into a building in know, repelling into a building in know, repelling into a building in Chicago from a Blackhawk, which I still Chicago from a Blackhawk, which I still Chicago from a Blackhawk, which I still can't really believe happened last year, can't really believe happened last year, can't really believe happened last year, but they have stopped the the great but they have stopped the the great but they have stopped the the great displays of force. They are still using displays of force. They are still using displays of force. They are still using force and it but it's not, you know, force and it but it's not, you know, force and it but it's not, you know, these ice drives the same way. It's the these ice drives the same way. It's the these ice drives the same way. It's the traffic stops. That's what the latest traffic stops. That's what the latest traffic stops. That's what the latest shootings were about. Steven Miller has shootings were about. Steven Miller has shootings were about. Steven Miller has taken down his arrest number for taken down his arrest number for taken down his arrest number for undocumented immigrants from last year.

undocumented immigrants from last year. undocumented immigrants from last year. It was 3,000 a day last year. Now it's It was 3,000 a day last year. Now it's It was 3,000 a day last year. Now it's 2,000 a day. And he's back to pushing 2,000 a day. And he's back to pushing 2,000 a day. And he's back to pushing people. And he's very, very aggressive people. And he's very, very aggressive people. And he's very, very aggressive on these calls. So [snorts] Miller still on these calls. So [snorts] Miller still on these calls. So [snorts] Miller still has power because Miller can also tell has power because Miller can also tell has power because Miller can also tell Trump, I can get you what you want very Trump, I can get you what you want very Trump, I can get you what you want very quickly. Which is also again why they quickly. Which is also again why they quickly. Which is also again why they don't go to Congress. They want to act don't go to Congress. They want to act don't go to Congress. They want to act unilaterally. Trump wants to act unilaterally. Trump wants to act unilaterally. Trump wants to act unilaterally and he just wants to do unilaterally and he just wants to do unilaterally and he just wants to do what he wants. Um, Hexath is still what he wants. Um, Hexath is still what he wants. Um, Hexath is still actually pretty powerful with Trump. actually pretty powerful with Trump. actually pretty powerful with Trump. Radcliffe is on certain issues. But the Radcliffe is on certain issues. But the Radcliffe is on certain issues. But the person who is most powerful is Trump. person who is most powerful is Trump. person who is most powerful is Trump. Period. Period. Period. >> Hegath is powerful with Trump. Trump >> Hegath is powerful with Trump. Trump >> Hegath is powerful with Trump. Trump listens to him. listens to him. listens to him. >> He listens to him on certain issues. >> He listens to him on certain issues. >> He listens to him on certain issues. Hegs has figured out how to have Hegs has figured out how to have Hegs has figured out how to have conversations. Look, Hegsth, if there conversations. Look, Hegsth, if there conversations. Look, Hegsth, if there was anyone who was in favor of Iran, it was anyone who was in favor of Iran, it was anyone who was in favor of Iran, it was Hexath. Um, but I I don't think he was Hexath. Um, but I I don't think he was Hexath. Um, but I I don't think he fully envisioned it going this way fully envisioned it going this way fully envisioned it going this way either. Heath often shows up for these either. Heath often shows up for these either. Heath often shows up for these briefings with Trump with Dan Kaine. he briefings with Trump with Dan Kaine. he briefings with Trump with Dan Kaine. he has figured out how to handle these has figured out how to handle these has figured out how to handle these discussions so that he is turning to discussions so that he is turning to discussions so that he is turning to somebody who actually has better somebody who actually has better somebody who actually has better tactical understanding. Uh but Trump tactical understanding. Uh but Trump tactical understanding. Uh but Trump does listen to him and the former does listen to him and the former does listen to him and the former general who general who general who >> the former general who is now the >> the former general who is now the >> the former general who is now the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff chairman of the joint chiefs of staff chairman of the joint chiefs of staff but whose style is very different than but whose style is very different than but whose style is very different than Trump's last choice for chairman of the Trump's last choice for chairman of the Trump's last choice for chairman of the joint chiefs of staff which was Mark joint chiefs of staff which was Mark joint chiefs of staff which was Mark Millie who would get into these sort of Millie who would get into these sort of Millie who would get into these sort of grab Trump by the lapels arguments. He grab Trump by the lapels arguments. He grab Trump by the lapels arguments. He did see his job as telling Trump which did see his job as telling Trump which did see his job as telling Trump which way to go. Kaine has told people he way to go. Kaine has told people he way to go. Kaine has told people he doesn't see that as his job. Um, Hexath doesn't see that as his job. Um, Hexath doesn't see that as his job. Um, Hexath is a um a diehard Trumper, not MAGA is a um a diehard Trumper, not MAGA is a um a diehard Trumper, not MAGA Trumper. And so that buys you a lot of Trumper. And so that buys you a lot of Trumper. And so that buys you a lot of cash internally.

cash internally. cash internally. >> Yeah. So that that was my question with >> Yeah. So that that was my question with >> Yeah. So that that was my question with him. Is he somebody who Trump enjoys as him. Is he somebody who Trump enjoys as him. Is he somebody who Trump enjoys as a yes man or who Trump listens to for a yes man or who Trump listens to for a yes man or who Trump listens to for strategic advice? strategic advice? strategic advice? >> More the former than the latter, but the >> More the former than the latter, but the >> More the former than the latter, but the strategic advice is also channeled strategic advice is also channeled strategic advice is also channeled through these joint conversations with through these joint conversations with through these joint conversations with HGsith. Um, but he does listen to him HGsith. Um, but he does listen to him HGsith. Um, but he does listen to him and he likes him and, you know, he's and he likes him and, you know, he's and he likes him and, you know, he's good on TV. He's tough. He he doesn't he good on TV. He's tough. He he doesn't he good on TV. He's tough. He he doesn't he doesn't take crap, etc., etc. And he is doesn't take crap, etc., etc. And he is doesn't take crap, etc., etc. And he is a devote. a devote. a devote. >> What have the people uh in the inner >> What have the people uh in the inner >> What have the people uh in the inner circle learned about how to brief Trump? circle learned about how to brief Trump? circle learned about how to brief Trump? >> It's a good that's a good question. >> It's a good that's a good question. >> It's a good that's a good question. >> This is it. It sits around the edge of a >> This is it. It sits around the edge of a >> This is it. It sits around the edge of a lot of the stories in your book of lot of the stories in your book of lot of the stories in your book of people bringing in poster boards, right? people bringing in poster boards, right? people bringing in poster boards, right? >> Well, that's Phil Py. That's one person, >> Well, that's Phil Py. That's one person, >> Well, that's Phil Py. That's one person, but yes, I understand. but yes, I understand. but yes, I understand. >> But I've heard from other people around >> But I've heard from other people around >> But I've heard from other people around the briefing books that they're very the briefing books that they're very the briefing books that they're very visual. visual. visual. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> Tell me what people have learned about >> Tell me what people have learned about >> Tell me what people have learned about how you briefed Donald Trump. how you briefed Donald Trump. how you briefed Donald Trump. >> He Trump is very visual, as you said. >> He Trump is very visual, as you said. >> He Trump is very visual, as you said. Uh, and this was a a big facet of term Uh, and this was a a big facet of term Uh, and this was a a big facet of term one, too. Now they all submit to it. I one, too. Now they all submit to it. I one, too. Now they all submit to it. I think they resisted it, the government, think they resisted it, the government, think they resisted it, the government, because it was so unusual to them in because it was so unusual to them in because it was so unusual to them in term one, but he really doesn't like term one, but he really doesn't like term one, but he really doesn't like long briefing books. Um, he doesn't long briefing books. Um, he doesn't long briefing books. Um, he doesn't really read them. He wants to be shown really read them. He wants to be shown really read them. He wants to be shown how things look. That is how he absorbs how things look. That is how he absorbs how things look. That is how he absorbs them. This is people describe him, them. This is people describe him, them. This is people describe him, they'll say he's a TV guy, and they tend they'll say he's a TV guy, and they tend they'll say he's a TV guy, and they tend to think of it as him on the set of The to think of it as him on the set of The to think of it as him on the set of The Apprentice, but it's actually really how Apprentice, but it's actually really how Apprentice, but it's actually really how he absorbs the world is through TV. and he absorbs the world is through TV. and he absorbs the world is through TV. and so he likes to see how things look. Just so he likes to see how things look. Just so he likes to see how things look. Just having a dry recitation of facts and having a dry recitation of facts and having a dry recitation of facts and discussions with him doesn't work very discussions with him doesn't work very discussions with him doesn't work very well. But even when it was visuals in well. But even when it was visuals in well. But even when it was visuals in term one, the quality of the information

term one, the quality of the information term one, the quality of the information was fairly reliable. There's a much was fairly reliable. There's a much was fairly reliable. There's a much bigger fight now about the quality of bigger fight now about the quality of bigger fight now about the quality of the information. the information. the information. whether you include a like essentially whether you include a like essentially whether you include a like essentially raw intelligence, whether you tell him raw intelligence, whether you tell him raw intelligence, whether you tell him reports that are unverified, whether it reports that are unverified, whether it reports that are unverified, whether it is just a different type of discussion. is just a different type of discussion. is just a different type of discussion. >> The amount that he relies on >> The amount that he relies on >> The amount that he relies on a sense of how things are either playing a sense of how things are either playing a sense of how things are either playing visually, right? There are moments in visually, right? There are moments in visually, right? There are moments in the book where and that I've heard about the book where and that I've heard about the book where and that I've heard about too where he sees what it's looking like too where he sees what it's looking like too where he sees what it's looking like when the Israelis are doing something when the Israelis are doing something when the Israelis are doing something now. wants to be involved. Or the flip, now. wants to be involved. Or the flip, now. wants to be involved. Or the flip, right, where he is being shown possible right, where he is being shown possible right, where he is being shown possible cabinet appointees and they give him cabinet appointees and they give him cabinet appointees and they give him little little little montages of them on cable news. montages of them on cable news. montages of them on cable news. >> There is something very deep about >> There is something very deep about >> There is something very deep about Trump's he doesn't just apprehend the Trump's he doesn't just apprehend the Trump's he doesn't just apprehend the world visually. He is a somewhat a world visually. He is a somewhat a world visually. He is a somewhat a master of creating visuals for the master of creating visuals for the master of creating visuals for the world. world. world. >> 100%. Yes. He you know Hegsth uh is one >> 100%. Yes. He you know Hegsth uh is one >> 100%. Yes. He you know Hegsth uh is one of many people he sort of cast into his of many people he sort of cast into his of many people he sort of cast into his administration.

administration. administration. >> He was an innovator in this. I mean I >> He was an innovator in this. I mean I >> He was an innovator in this. I mean I think you have to see Mdani as having think you have to see Mdani as having think you have to see Mdani as having like a different version of this a kind like a different version of this a kind like a different version of this a kind of visual mastery of the world. I just of visual mastery of the world. I just of visual mastery of the world. I just had Morris Cats on the show. They very had Morris Cats on the show. They very had Morris Cats on the show. They very much much much >> found Graham Platner and cast him in a >> found Graham Platner and cast him in a >> found Graham Platner and cast him in a very particular position. But again, very particular position. But again, very particular position. But again, this operates on the the the edges of this operates on the the the edges of this operates on the the the edges of the book, but I'd be curious to hear you the book, but I'd be curious to hear you the book, but I'd be curious to hear you bring it to the the center of the stage, bring it to the the center of the stage, bring it to the the center of the stage, which is which is which is >> what has it meant >> what has it meant >> what has it meant to have this uh administration that both to have this uh administration that both to have this uh administration that both makes internal decisions through makes internal decisions through makes internal decisions through spectacle? spectacle? spectacle? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then communicates >> And then communicates >> And then communicates through spectacle that that judges through spectacle that that judges through spectacle that that judges visually and acts visually. visually and acts visually. visually and acts visually. >> It becomes a self-reinforcing feedback >> It becomes a self-reinforcing feedback >> It becomes a self-reinforcing feedback loop sometimes, right? Right. I mean, so loop sometimes, right? Right. I mean, so loop sometimes, right? Right. I mean, so when you were talking about Hexath, we when you were talking about Hexath, we when you were talking about Hexath, we have a bit in the book about how he, you have a bit in the book about how he, you have a bit in the book about how he, you know, he got very into these these know, he got very into these these know, he got very into these these videos of the boat strikes and um they videos of the boat strikes and um they videos of the boat strikes and um they would be privately described as Hegsth's would be privately described as Hegsth's would be privately described as Hegsth's um snuff films, but you know, he would um snuff films, but you know, he would um snuff films, but you know, he would he would he would want to have some sent he would he would want to have some sent he would he would want to have some sent to Trump because he knew Trump would to Trump because he knew Trump would to Trump because he knew Trump would want to see them. Um, want to see them. Um, want to see them. Um, Trump is a Trump is a Trump is a master of the attention economy, which master of the attention economy, which master of the attention economy, which is what I was thinking about when you is what I was thinking about when you is what I was thinking about when you were talking about Mom Donnie. I think were talking about Mom Donnie. I think were talking about Mom Donnie. I think that that is part of the attention that that is part of the attention that that is part of the attention economy is creating a visual and is economy is creating a visual and is economy is creating a visual and is getting something that will grab people.

getting something that will grab people. getting something that will grab people. Mom Donnie was exceptionally good at Mom Donnie was exceptionally good at Mom Donnie was exceptionally good at that in his campaign. Um, and still is that in his campaign. Um, and still is that in his campaign. Um, and still is honestly. I mean, when I look at his honestly. I mean, when I look at his honestly. I mean, when I look at his social media, just as mayor, it is social media, just as mayor, it is social media, just as mayor, it is actually quite striking how much of it actually quite striking how much of it actually quite striking how much of it still comes into my feed. even if I'm still comes into my feed. even if I'm still comes into my feed. even if I'm not looking for it, even if I'm not not looking for it, even if I'm not not looking for it, even if I'm not looking at his thing. Um, but it becomes looking at his thing. Um, but it becomes looking at his thing. Um, but it becomes a way to tell yourself that your view of a way to tell yourself that your view of a way to tell yourself that your view of reality is what's happening. So, for reality is what's happening. So, for reality is what's happening. So, for instance, um, we have a scene in the instance, um, we have a scene in the instance, um, we have a scene in the book where Steven Miller comes into, it book where Steven Miller comes into, it book where Steven Miller comes into, it was really an important moment. He comes was really an important moment. He comes was really an important moment. He comes into the Oval Office and he's got these into the Oval Office and he's got these into the Oval Office and he's got these pictures of this kid from Doge whose pictures of this kid from Doge whose pictures of this kid from Doge whose name online was Big Balls. That's what name online was Big Balls. That's what name online was Big Balls. That's what he was known as. And his actual name is he was known as. And his actual name is he was known as. And his actual name is Ed something. But um he um he had been Ed something. But um he um he had been Ed something. But um he um he had been beaten up and he's got these photos that beaten up and he's got these photos that beaten up and he's got these photos that Stephen Miller had gotten from his wife Stephen Miller had gotten from his wife Stephen Miller had gotten from his wife who had been working with Musk at Doge. who had been working with Musk at Doge. who had been working with Musk at Doge. That then fires up something that That then fires up something that That then fires up something that Trump's been wanting to do forever, Trump's been wanting to do forever, Trump's been wanting to do forever, which is send National Guard in to DC. which is send National Guard in to DC. which is send National Guard in to DC. Um it becomes a way of Um it becomes a way of Um it becomes a way of it isn't just about seeing visuals that it isn't just about seeing visuals that it isn't just about seeing visuals that you know reaffirm your point. Um, it is you know reaffirm your point. Um, it is you know reaffirm your point. Um, it is basically that your world is no basically that your world is no basically that your world is no competing viewpoints and that everything competing viewpoints and that everything competing viewpoints and that everything is just going in through the eyes and it is just going in through the eyes and it is just going in through the eyes and it stops you from thinking the same way.

stops you from thinking the same way. stops you from thinking the same way. It's because part of I mean this is my It's because part of I mean this is my It's because part of I mean this is my this is my opinion now I'm getting a this is my opinion now I'm getting a this is my opinion now I'm getting a little inside his head which I try not little inside his head which I try not little inside his head which I try not to do cuz it's not a very worthwhile to do cuz it's not a very worthwhile to do cuz it's not a very worthwhile endeavor but endeavor but endeavor but >> I do think that when people are >> I do think that when people are >> I do think that when people are consuming their own content that way so consuming their own content that way so consuming their own content that way so much of consumption of visuals is is much of consumption of visuals is is much of consumption of visuals is is about you react you react and so it's about you react you react and so it's about you react you react and so it's just a constant reaction and that is just a constant reaction and that is just a constant reaction and that is what they try doing with these videos what they try doing with these videos what they try doing with these videos that um Steven Chung does when he's that um Steven Chung does when he's that um Steven Chung does when he's trolling you know they set the the White trolling you know they set the the White trolling you know they set the the White House communications director who was a House communications director who was a House communications director who was a [snorts] big UFC guy for instance, they [snorts] big UFC guy for instance, they [snorts] big UFC guy for instance, they set these videos of these strikes like set these videos of these strikes like set these videos of these strikes like to to like actual video game music to to like actual video game music to to like actual video game music [music] and dynamics >> or and I thought this was a fascinating >> or and I thought this was a fascinating detail in the book to the music of detail in the book to the music of detail in the book to the music of artists who are going to protest. artists who are going to protest. artists who are going to protest. >> Correct. That's true. going to say, "How >> Correct. That's true. going to say, "How >> Correct. That's true. going to say, "How dare you use my music in this way?" And dare you use my music in this way?" And dare you use my music in this way?" And then that's another news cycle for them.

then that's another news cycle for them. then that's another news cycle for them. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Um, one of the things that Kushner used >> Um, one of the things that Kushner used >> Um, one of the things that Kushner used to tell people in the White House last to tell people in the White House last to tell people in the White House last time was that he would describe what he time was that he would describe what he time was that he would describe what he called Trump rules. And one of them was called Trump rules. And one of them was called Trump rules. And one of them was controversy elevates message. And so controversy elevates message. And so controversy elevates message. And so there's no quicker way to do that. But there's no quicker way to do that. But there's no quicker way to do that. But it's also a way to say, "I'm not going it's also a way to say, "I'm not going it's also a way to say, "I'm not going to follow your rules." to follow your rules." to follow your rules." >> What did you make of the Trump MDI >> What did you make of the Trump MDI >> What did you make of the Trump MDI meetings? Uh, I was so not surprised and meetings? Uh, I was so not surprised and meetings? Uh, I was so not surprised and it went exactly as I thought it was it went exactly as I thought it was it went exactly as I thought it was going to in all seriousness. But Trump's going to in all seriousness. But Trump's going to in all seriousness. But Trump's uh own team is a little um uh own team is a little um uh own team is a little um uh jarred by uh how much he enjoys uh jarred by uh how much he enjoys uh jarred by uh how much he enjoys talking to momi and how as much as the talking to momi and how as much as the talking to momi and how as much as the Republicans are trying to talk about Republicans are trying to talk about Republicans are trying to talk about how, you know, socialists or communists how, you know, socialists or communists how, you know, socialists or communists and Trump is even doing that in his own and Trump is even doing that in his own and Trump is even doing that in his own speeches, but he seems to have a real speeches, but he seems to have a real speeches, but he seems to have a real carveout for one particular person. And carveout for one particular person. And carveout for one particular person. And I know he's attacked him a few times I know he's attacked him a few times I know he's attacked him a few times recently, Mom Donnie, but Manny is um recently, Mom Donnie, but Manny is um recently, Mom Donnie, but Manny is um he's very good. I mean, apparently in he's very good. I mean, apparently in he's very good. I mean, apparently in their first meeting, Monnie was their first meeting, Monnie was their first meeting, Monnie was referring to the crossover of voters referring to the crossover of voters referring to the crossover of voters that that were Trump voters at his own that that were Trump voters at his own that that were Trump voters at his own rallies. Money has been quite smart. the rallies. Money has been quite smart. the rallies. Money has been quite smart. the Trump mom Donnie meetings uh they Trump mom Donnie meetings uh they Trump mom Donnie meetings uh they reflect what I thought was the funniest reflect what I thought was the funniest reflect what I thought was the funniest part of your book, part of your book, part of your book, >> which is Trump's tendency to be >> which is Trump's tendency to be >> which is Trump's tendency to be incredibly consiliatory and friendly incredibly consiliatory and friendly incredibly consiliatory and friendly when he meets one-on-one with people when he meets one-on-one with people when he meets one-on-one with people >> who he has been >> who he has been >> who he has been slandering, who his administration might slandering, who his administration might slandering, who his administration might be entirely be entirely be entirely >> persecuting.

>> persecuting. >> persecuting. But for somebody who is so brash and But for somebody who is so brash and But for somebody who is so brash and aggressive, aggressive, aggressive, he's a bit of a pussycat one-on-one. he's a bit of a pussycat one-on-one. he's a bit of a pussycat one-on-one. >> Um, he does not like one-on-one >> Um, he does not like one-on-one >> Um, he does not like one-on-one interpersonal conf direct conflict. Uh, interpersonal conf direct conflict. Uh, interpersonal conf direct conflict. Uh, this has been a a constant in his life. this has been a a constant in his life. this has been a a constant in his life. Um, sometimes he does it intentionally Um, sometimes he does it intentionally Um, sometimes he does it intentionally just to sort of make the person be off just to sort of make the person be off just to sort of make the person be off guard. But with Manny, he seems to guard. But with Manny, he seems to guard. But with Manny, he seems to genuinely like him. So for whatever genuinely like him. So for whatever genuinely like him. So for whatever that's worth, that's worth, that's worth, >> do you feel Trump is changed with age or >> do you feel Trump is changed with age or >> do you feel Trump is changed with age or the age is sowing him in meaningful the age is sowing him in meaningful the age is sowing him in meaningful ways? ways? ways? >> I mean define meaningful I I >> I mean define meaningful I I >> I mean define meaningful I I when I watch him on television from even when I watch him on television from even when I watch him on television from even 10 years ago, I mean I was watching his 10 years ago, I mean I was watching his 10 years ago, I mean I was watching his RNC address in 2016 recently and it's a RNC address in 2016 recently and it's a RNC address in 2016 recently and it's a a pretty jarring uh comparison to just a pretty jarring uh comparison to just a pretty jarring uh comparison to just how his words flow now. Um he speaks how his words flow now. Um he speaks how his words flow now. Um he speaks much slower. Um he's telling the same much slower. Um he's telling the same much slower. Um he's telling the same stories a lot. the weave is getting wide stories a lot. the weave is getting wide stories a lot. the weave is getting wide as Joe Rogan Rogan would say. That's as Joe Rogan Rogan would say. That's as Joe Rogan Rogan would say. That's definitely true. I will say that definitely true. I will say that definitely true. I will say that Jonathan and I spent an hour with him in Jonathan and I spent an hour with him in Jonathan and I spent an hour with him in the Oval Office on March 16th of this the Oval Office on March 16th of this the Oval Office on March 16th of this year for a fact check interview for the year for a fact check interview for the year for a fact check interview for the book. We didn't notice anything book. We didn't notice anything book. We didn't notice anything meaningfully different. Um what we did meaningfully different. Um what we did meaningfully different. Um what we did notice is that he seemed like what Steve notice is that he seemed like what Steve notice is that he seemed like what Steve Bannon describes as pure Trump. There Bannon describes as pure Trump. There Bannon describes as pure Trump. There was just much more focus on payback, was just much more focus on payback, was just much more focus on payback, much more focus on what he wants to be much more focus on what he wants to be much more focus on what he wants to be focused on. Um very obsessed with the focused on. Um very obsessed with the focused on. Um very obsessed with the renovation projects. Very. And and you renovation projects. Very. And and you renovation projects. Very. And and you know, here's the models. It's day 17.

know, here's the models. It's day 17. know, here's the models. It's day 17. here's the models of the ballroom and so here's the models of the ballroom and so here's the models of the ballroom and so of the day 17 of the war here's my of the day 17 of the war here's my of the day 17 of the war here's my models of the ballroom and so forth that models of the ballroom and so forth that models of the ballroom and so forth that was it was like he didn't have a care in was it was like he didn't have a care in was it was like he didn't have a care in the world but I don't subscribe to this the world but I don't subscribe to this the world but I don't subscribe to this dementia conversation I don't think dementia conversation I don't think dementia conversation I don't think Trump is some fundamentally different Trump is some fundamentally different Trump is some fundamentally different human being I just don't um uh but I human being I just don't um uh but I human being I just don't um uh but I think he is much more himself um which think he is much more himself um which think he is much more himself um which is a product of age in general is a product of age in general is a product of age in general >> there was [clears throat] a sense >> there was [clears throat] a sense >> there was [clears throat] a sense maybe the better way to put it is that maybe the better way to put it is that maybe the better way to put it is that there was a thread on practically lefty there was a thread on practically lefty there was a thread on practically lefty social media six eight months ago around social media six eight months ago around social media six eight months ago around the sort strange bruising people were the sort strange bruising people were the sort strange bruising people were seeing. seeing. seeing. >> Oh, it is weird. I mean, yes, >> Oh, it is weird. I mean, yes, >> Oh, it is weird. I mean, yes, >> the sort of the ankle swelling that he >> the sort of the ankle swelling that he >> the sort of the ankle swelling that he was quite sick was quite sick was quite sick >> in terms of physical health. He has >> in terms of physical health. He has >> in terms of physical health. He has chronic venus insufficiency chronic venus insufficiency chronic venus insufficiency syndrome, disease, whatever it's called, syndrome, disease, whatever it's called, syndrome, disease, whatever it's called, that means that the blood is not going that means that the blood is not going that means that the blood is not going to his heart properly. So, that's not a to his heart properly. So, that's not a to his heart properly. So, that's not a good thing. Um, you know, on his first good thing. Um, you know, on his first good thing. Um, you know, on his first medical report in 2018, he had a calcium medical report in 2018, he had a calcium medical report in 2018, he had a calcium score of, I think, 133. That suggests score of, I think, 133. That suggests score of, I think, 133. That suggests some level of heart disease. They have some level of heart disease. They have some level of heart disease. They have not put out a calcium score since. Um he not put out a calcium score since. Um he not put out a calcium score since. Um he was very sick with COVID in 2020 and we was very sick with COVID in 2020 and we was very sick with COVID in 2020 and we still don't know the extent of that. I still don't know the extent of that. I still don't know the extent of that. I mean I reported some on that from mean I reported some on that from mean I reported some on that from information we got well after he was out information we got well after he was out information we got well after he was out of office but you know we don't we don't of office but you know we don't we don't of office but you know we don't we don't know what we don't know and his health know what we don't know and his health know what we don't know and his health notes read as if he's written part of notes read as if he's written part of notes read as if he's written part of them. So you know he goes to Walter Reed them. So you know he goes to Walter Reed them. So you know he goes to Walter Reed with more frequency and they release with more frequency and they release with more frequency and they release less information. Um he got imaging we less information. Um he got imaging we less information. Um he got imaging we don't even know what they were. Um he don't even know what they were. Um he don't even know what they were. Um he can't tell us. He says he was treated by can't tell us. He says he was treated by can't tell us. He says he was treated by 22 specialists. What? 22? I don't even 22 specialists. What? 22? I don't even 22 specialists. What? 22? I don't even know that could be. And the the bruising know that could be. And the the bruising know that could be. And the the bruising thing, the explanation has never made thing, the explanation has never made thing, the explanation has never made sense. It's always been hand shaking,

sense. It's always been hand shaking, sense. It's always been hand shaking, aspirin. I it could be that 80-year-olds aspirin. I it could be that 80-year-olds aspirin. I it could be that 80-year-olds have thinner skin, but I he's he's have thinner skin, but I he's he's have thinner skin, but I he's he's clearly not the the picture of great clearly not the the picture of great clearly not the the picture of great physical health, but I don't know what physical health, but I don't know what physical health, but I don't know what that means. You know, what I know what I that means. You know, what I know what I that means. You know, what I know what I generally know what it means is that um generally know what it means is that um generally know what it means is that um electing 80-year-olds is a bit of a electing 80-year-olds is a bit of a electing 80-year-olds is a bit of a gamble, right? I mean, electing anybody gamble, right? I mean, electing anybody gamble, right? I mean, electing anybody isn't a gamble. You don't know how isn't a gamble. You don't know how isn't a gamble. You don't know how somebody's health is going to be, but somebody's health is going to be, but somebody's health is going to be, but you can guess where it's going when you can guess where it's going when you can guess where it's going when they're older. they're older. they're older. >> How much of his time actually goes into >> How much of his time actually goes into >> How much of his time actually goes into the renovation now? the renovation now? the renovation now? >> A lot. if you looked at like like a >> A lot. if you looked at like like a >> A lot. if you looked at like like a chart of his mind share like this I will chart of his mind share like this I will chart of his mind share like this I will say about getting into his mind um like say about getting into his mind um like say about getting into his mind um like 70% of it would be on his renovations. 70% of it would be on his renovations. 70% of it would be on his renovations. It's it's it's a legacy thing but it's It's it's it's a legacy thing but it's It's it's it's a legacy thing but it's it's it's I always think of legacy with it's it's I always think of legacy with it's it's I always think of legacy with him different than the way we usually him different than the way we usually him different than the way we usually use the word legacy. It's it's use the word legacy. It's it's use the word legacy. It's it's um it's not what am I leaving behind for um it's not what am I leaving behind for um it's not what am I leaving behind for the world. It's what am I leaving behind the world. It's what am I leaving behind the world. It's what am I leaving behind so the world can't kick me off the world so the world can't kick me off the world so the world can't kick me off the world or deplatform me or take my name off or deplatform me or take my name off or deplatform me or take my name off buildings in Manhattan or take away my buildings in Manhattan or take away my buildings in Manhattan or take away my Bronx leased golf course, you know, or Bronx leased golf course, you know, or Bronx leased golf course, you know, or debank me? It's what can I do that debank me? It's what can I do that debank me? It's what can I do that cannot be taken away?

cannot be taken away? cannot be taken away? >> Yeah. How can I create monuments to >> Yeah. How can I create monuments to >> Yeah. How can I create monuments to myself? myself? myself? >> Correct. I mean literally I mean he >> Correct. I mean literally I mean he >> Correct. I mean literally I mean he literally said that when Ed O'Keefe from literally said that when Ed O'Keefe from literally said that when Ed O'Keefe from CBS asked him he noticed the arch um CBS asked him he noticed the arch um CBS asked him he noticed the arch um which he's calling the arc to Trump um which he's calling the arc to Trump um which he's calling the arc to Trump um design on the Resolute desk and he asked design on the Resolute desk and he asked design on the Resolute desk and he asked or on the desk I don't know if it was or on the desk I don't know if it was or on the desk I don't know if it was the Resolute I think it was back by then the Resolute I think it was back by then the Resolute I think it was back by then Ed said what is that and Trump's like Ed said what is that and Trump's like Ed said what is that and Trump's like it's an arch it's an arch it's an arch >> thank you all you come this way thank >> thank you all you come this way thank >> thank you all you come this way thank you you you >> for who? >> for who? >> for who? >> Thanks guys. >> Thanks guys. >> Thanks guys. >> Yeah know I know where it is but who's >> Yeah know I know where it is but who's >> Yeah know I know where it is but who's it for? it for? it for? >> Thank you guys. >> Thank you guys. >> Thank you guys. >> And he was quite quite clear about it. >> And he was quite quite clear about it. >> And he was quite quite clear about it. There was no further conversation. Um There was no further conversation. Um There was no further conversation. Um the Kennedy Center, um the ballroom, um the Kennedy Center, um the ballroom, um the Kennedy Center, um the ballroom, um you know, I mean, I can go on and on, you know, I mean, I can go on and on, you know, I mean, I can go on and on, but it is all monuments. but it is all monuments. but it is all monuments. >> Can you tell the Mcronone story with the >> Can you tell the Mcronone story with the >> Can you tell the Mcronone story with the arch? arch? arch? >> Going to f this up a little bit, but he >> Going to f this up a little bit, but he >> Going to f this up a little bit, but he in a in a meeting he um he calls So, one in a in a meeting he um he calls So, one in a in a meeting he um he calls So, one of the things he was musing about was um of the things he was musing about was um of the things he was musing about was um like what should go on top of the arch? like what should go on top of the arch? like what should go on top of the arch? And it was like should he put a version And it was like should he put a version And it was like should he put a version of a gold version like the fight fight of a gold version like the fight fight of a gold version like the fight fight fist from Butler up there? But he calls fist from Butler up there? But he calls fist from Butler up there? But he calls Mcronone in the middle of another Mcronone in the middle of another Mcronone in the middle of another meeting and starts asking him about the meeting and starts asking him about the meeting and starts asking him about the Arctic Triumph in uh in France and you Arctic Triumph in uh in France and you Arctic Triumph in uh in France and you know what's it like and and how many you know what's it like and and how many you know what's it like and and how many you know does it have a visitor's desk? Do know does it have a visitor's desk? Do know does it have a visitor's desk? Do people jump off of it? I mean this was people jump off of it? I mean this was people jump off of it? I mean this was the conversation that he was interested the conversation that he was interested the conversation that he was interested in and he's still talking about this in and he's still talking about this in and he's still talking about this kind of thing. Um but calls up a foreign kind of thing. Um but calls up a foreign kind of thing. Um but calls up a foreign leader to inquire about what his arch to leader to inquire about what his arch to leader to inquire about what his arch to himself should look like. Speaking of himself should look like. Speaking of himself should look like. Speaking of the other side of legacy, the more the other side of legacy, the more the other side of legacy, the more traditional way we would talk about traditional way we would talk about traditional way we would talk about legacy, does he have things he still legacy, does he have things he still legacy, does he have things he still wants to achieve politically?

wants to achieve politically? wants to achieve politically? >> It's a really good, it's a really good >> It's a really good, it's a really good >> It's a really good, it's a really good question. Um, I could answer that pretty question. Um, I could answer that pretty question. Um, I could answer that pretty clearly in 2019 and 2020, there were clearly in 2019 and 2020, there were clearly in 2019 and 2020, there were things that he still wanted to achieve. things that he still wanted to achieve. things that he still wanted to achieve. um uh um uh um uh if they are if there are things that he if they are if there are things that he if they are if there are things that he wants to achieve um beyond just sort of wants to achieve um beyond just sort of wants to achieve um beyond just sort of not being Herbert Hoover as he would not being Herbert Hoover as he would not being Herbert Hoover as he would say, meaning with a a giant global say, meaning with a a giant global say, meaning with a a giant global crisis. Um not really. I mean, he look crisis. Um not really. I mean, he look crisis. Um not really. I mean, he look he's resumed his trade war as you as you he's resumed his trade war as you as you he's resumed his trade war as you as you said. Uh I think he'd like to achieve said. Uh I think he'd like to achieve said. Uh I think he'd like to achieve getting out of Iran. I think he would getting out of Iran. I think he would getting out of Iran. I think he would like to figure out an end to that the like to figure out an end to that the like to figure out an end to that the war that he started. Um but that's not war that he started. Um but that's not war that he started. Um but that's not an achievement. That's a reaction to his an achievement. That's a reaction to his an achievement. That's a reaction to his own behavior as we started this episode own behavior as we started this episode own behavior as we started this episode with. There are people around whom him with. There are people around whom him with. There are people around whom him who would like to see some form of who would like to see some form of who would like to see some form of comprehensive immigration reform. To comprehensive immigration reform. To comprehensive immigration reform. To your question about legislation, that's your question about legislation, that's your question about legislation, that's something that we can work with something that we can work with something that we can work with Democrats on. I boy do I have a hard Democrats on. I boy do I have a hard Democrats on. I boy do I have a hard time seeing Democrats wanting to give time seeing Democrats wanting to give time seeing Democrats wanting to give him some kind of a political win that him some kind of a political win that him some kind of a political win that way, especially when it would be, I way, especially when it would be, I way, especially when it would be, I suspect, a bill they would find less suspect, a bill they would find less suspect, a bill they would find less than palatable, as they have almost than palatable, as they have almost than palatable, as they have almost every single other bill involving every single other bill involving every single other bill involving anything related to immigration with anything related to immigration with anything related to immigration with him. Maybe another way of of asking this him. Maybe another way of of asking this him. Maybe another way of of asking this is are there actual policy issues his is are there actual policy issues his is are there actual policy issues his mind is gravitating towards in the way mind is gravitating towards in the way mind is gravitating towards in the way it does towards the renovation. No, I it does towards the renovation. No, I it does towards the renovation. No, I know what you're asking. I mean the know what you're asking. I mean the know what you're asking. I mean the answer is no. Right. Yeah. I mean I I I answer is no. Right. Yeah. I mean I I I answer is no. Right. Yeah. I mean I I I would give I mean that could change.

would give I mean that could change. would give I mean that could change. They could be having conversations we're They could be having conversations we're They could be having conversations we're not aware of. Um not aware of. Um not aware of. Um >> but certainly not in anything that we >> but certainly not in anything that we >> but certainly not in anything that we have heard. I mean if anything what he have heard. I mean if anything what he have heard. I mean if anything what he spent the last year and a half focused spent the last year and a half focused spent the last year and a half focused on you know as issues top 1 2 and three on you know as issues top 1 2 and three on you know as issues top 1 2 and three were were were retribution were these bullying retribution were these bullying retribution were these bullying campaigns across various industries and campaigns across various industries and campaigns across various industries and aspects of civil society where he was aspects of civil society where he was aspects of civil society where he was pretty successful for a time the law pretty successful for a time the law pretty successful for a time the law firms won the courts caught up with him firms won the courts caught up with him firms won the courts caught up with him but media he's done pretty well I would but media he's done pretty well I would but media he's done pretty well I would say in terms of his attacks on the media say in terms of his attacks on the media say in terms of his attacks on the media not not not through the government not not not through the government not not not through the government levers but through lawsuits but levers but through lawsuits but levers but through lawsuits but renovations is really renovations is really renovations is really huge part of it. I mean it's the degree huge part of it. I mean it's the degree huge part of it. I mean it's the degree of mind share on these projects is is of mind share on these projects is is of mind share on these projects is is vast. Um he is vastly less interested in vast. Um he is vastly less interested in vast. Um he is vastly less interested in and reactive to domestic politics this and reactive to domestic politics this and reactive to domestic politics this time just just beyond. And one of the time just just beyond. And one of the time just just beyond. And one of the things that we started seeing in 2024 things that we started seeing in 2024 things that we started seeing in 2024 and we get into this this relates to in and we get into this this relates to in and we get into this this relates to in the book it relates to the mystical the book it relates to the mystical the book it relates to the mystical quality. He sees himself as big on a quality. He sees himself as big on a quality. He sees himself as big on a level that I think people really don't level that I think people really don't level that I think people really don't understand and and there it was quite understand and and there it was quite understand and and there it was quite clear when we were sitting with him and clear when we were sitting with him and clear when we were sitting with him and we write about that in the epilogue of we write about that in the epilogue of we write about that in the epilogue of the book but he is playing for history the book but he is playing for history the book but he is playing for history capital G great man of history um to be capital G great man of history um to be capital G great man of history um to be remembered to be remembered by one name remembered to be remembered by one name remembered to be remembered by one name to have left a mark uh on the world that to have left a mark uh on the world that to have left a mark uh on the world that is just different than a typical is just different than a typical is just different than a typical president or what he would say is a a president or what he would say is a a president or what he would say is a a normal president that doesn't involve normal president that doesn't involve normal president that doesn't involve the boring work of trying to pass a bill the boring work of trying to pass a bill the boring work of trying to pass a bill that doesn't involve the boring work of that doesn't involve the boring work of that doesn't involve the boring work of going to Iowa to talk about XYZ,

going to Iowa to talk about XYZ, going to Iowa to talk about XYZ, although his numbers are not great in although his numbers are not great in although his numbers are not great in Iowa now either. I mean, this is this is Iowa now either. I mean, this is this is Iowa now either. I mean, this is this is fundamentally less interesting to him. fundamentally less interesting to him. fundamentally less interesting to him. Immigration very interesting to him. I Immigration very interesting to him. I Immigration very interesting to him. I think that if he could find some way to think that if he could find some way to think that if he could find some way to even further change the immigration even further change the immigration even further change the immigration system and claim credit for that, he system and claim credit for that, he system and claim credit for that, he would. Um, that did not involve would. Um, that did not involve would. Um, that did not involve legislation, he may still end up trying legislation, he may still end up trying legislation, he may still end up trying to do something legislatively. It to do something legislatively. It to do something legislatively. It wouldn't surprise me at all. I just wouldn't surprise me at all. I just wouldn't surprise me at all. I just don't see it going very far. But, don't see it going very far. But, don't see it going very far. But, [snorts] but who knows? I'm willing to [snorts] but who knows? I'm willing to [snorts] but who knows? I'm willing to be surprised. But no, there is not room be surprised. But no, there is not room be surprised. But no, there is not room in the tank for here is how we are going in the tank for here is how we are going in the tank for here is how we are going to map out XYZ. They are in survival to map out XYZ. They are in survival to map out XYZ. They are in survival mode politically to a degree that I I mode politically to a degree that I I mode politically to a degree that I I kind of can't express. kind of can't express. kind of can't express. >> I think that's a good place to end. >> I think that's a good place to end. >> I think that's a good place to end. Always a final question. What are a few Always a final question. What are a few Always a final question. What are a few books you recommend to the audience? books you recommend to the audience? books you recommend to the audience? >> Okay. So, I'm reading Charlie Savage's >> Okay. So, I'm reading Charlie Savage's >> Okay. So, I'm reading Charlie Savage's Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency, which was a very, very good Presidency, which was a very, very good Presidency, which was a very, very good look at how particularly Dick Cheney look at how particularly Dick Cheney look at how particularly Dick Cheney expanded um executive power under W. expanded um executive power under W. expanded um executive power under W. Bush uh post 911. I am reading um Bill Bush uh post 911. I am reading um Bill Bush uh post 911. I am reading um Bill Burton's um strangers because a book Burton's um strangers because a book Burton's um strangers because a book that is that everywhere I sort of feel that is that everywhere I sort of feel that is that everywhere I sort of feel compelled to have some sense of um compelled to have some sense of um compelled to have some sense of um >> I haven't read it yet. Is it good?

>> I haven't read it yet. Is it good? >> I haven't read it yet. Is it good? >> It's interesting. Um it's interesting. >> It's interesting. Um it's interesting. >> It's interesting. Um it's interesting. It's well written. It's definitely It's well written. It's definitely It's well written. It's definitely propulsive. Um it's an interesting propulsive. Um it's an interesting propulsive. Um it's an interesting choice to write about such wealth uh in choice to write about such wealth uh in choice to write about such wealth uh in this moment. It was that was a little this moment. It was that was a little this moment. It was that was a little hard to to get through because there are hard to to get through because there are hard to to get through because there are many people who go through divorces who many people who go through divorces who many people who go through divorces who don't quite have the same resources. And don't quite have the same resources. And don't quite have the same resources. And then Keith McN's I Regret Everything. then Keith McN's I Regret Everything. then Keith McN's I Regret Everything. >> Oh, that book has been fun. >> Oh, that book has been fun. >> Oh, that book has been fun. >> It's actually fantastic. So, yeah, but >> It's actually fantastic. So, yeah, but >> It's actually fantastic. So, yeah, but I've had to cycle out of that one for uh I've had to cycle out of that one for uh I've had to cycle out of that one for uh for news and for other reasons. So, for news and for other reasons. So, for news and for other reasons. So, >> Maggie Haberman, thank you very much. >> Maggie Haberman, thank you very much. >> Maggie Haberman, thank you very much. >> That's right. Thanks for having me. >> That's right. Thanks for having me. >> That's right. Thanks for having me. >> [music]