The Miracles (and Maddening Politics) of the Clean Energy Revolution | The Ezra Klein Show

Here's the good news. Green energy is Here's the good news. Green energy is getting better and cheaper faster than getting better and cheaper faster than getting better and cheaper faster than we had ever dared hope. This next we had ever dared hope. This next we had ever dared hope. This next sentence was unimaginable even a few sentence was unimaginable even a few sentence was unimaginable even a few years ago. The energy think tank Ember years ago. The energy think tank Ember years ago. The energy think tank Ember found in April that all all of the new found in April that all all of the new found in April that all all of the new electricity demand around the world in electricity demand around the world in electricity demand around the world in 2025 was met with green power. That is 2025 was met with green power. That is 2025 was met with green power. That is wild. But here is the bad news. Climate wild. But here is the bad news. Climate wild. But here is the bad news. Climate change is accelerating. We're change is accelerating. We're change is accelerating. We're discovering new ways the climate system discovering new ways the climate system discovering new ways the climate system is more fragile, more sensitive to is more fragile, more sensitive to is more fragile, more sensitive to emissions than we previously thought. emissions than we previously thought. emissions than we previously thought. Europe is in the midst of an Europe is in the midst of an Europe is in the midst of an extraordinary heat wave. The world is extraordinary heat wave. The world is extraordinary heat wave. The world is staring down the barrel of a powerful El staring down the barrel of a powerful El staring down the barrel of a powerful El Nino. Nino. Nino. >> Scientists say it could intensify to a >> Scientists say it could intensify to a >> Scientists say it could intensify to a super El Nino causing extreme super El Nino causing extreme super El Nino causing extreme temperatures and dramatically shifting temperatures and dramatically shifting temperatures and dramatically shifting global weather patterns. global weather patterns. global weather patterns. >> We are not talking that much about >> We are not talking that much about >> We are not talking that much about climate change lately. That doesn't mean climate change lately. That doesn't mean climate change lately. That doesn't mean it has stopped happening. And climate it has stopped happening. And climate it has stopped happening. And climate politics is in almost total disarray. politics is in almost total disarray. politics is in almost total disarray. Trump has gutted the Inflation Reduction Trump has gutted the Inflation Reduction Trump has gutted the Inflation Reduction Act. His administration is accelerating Act. His administration is accelerating Act. His administration is accelerating fossil fuel production, kneecapping fossil fuel production, kneecapping fossil fuel production, kneecapping green energy, green energy, green energy, >> wind, it doesn't work, we'll tell you.

>> wind, it doesn't work, we'll tell you. >> wind, it doesn't work, we'll tell you. Aside from ruining our fields and our Aside from ruining our fields and our Aside from ruining our fields and our valleys and killing all the birds, valleys and killing all the birds, valleys and killing all the birds, having very being very weak and very having very being very weak and very having very being very weak and very expensive. expensive. expensive. >> But here's the the possibility. Here's >> But here's the the possibility. Here's >> But here's the the possibility. Here's my bit of optimism. The advances in my bit of optimism. The advances in my bit of optimism. The advances in green technology make a new climate green technology make a new climate green technology make a new climate politics possible. one that doesn't just politics possible. one that doesn't just politics possible. one that doesn't just talk about sacrifice and disaster talk about sacrifice and disaster talk about sacrifice and disaster prevention, but presents decarbonization prevention, but presents decarbonization prevention, but presents decarbonization and green energy as a way station on the and green energy as a way station on the and green energy as a way station on the path to somewhere that is better. Clean path to somewhere that is better. Clean path to somewhere that is better. Clean energy abundance, a new form of energy abundance, a new form of energy abundance, a new form of energetic wealth, of the possibility of energetic wealth, of the possibility of energetic wealth, of the possibility of the left actually offering a future of the left actually offering a future of the left actually offering a future of more and better, not less and worse. more and better, not less and worse. more and better, not less and worse. This was a hard case to make even a few This was a hard case to make even a few This was a hard case to make even a few years ago. But now we can not just years ago. But now we can not just years ago. But now we can not just imagine it, we can see it, touch it, imagine it, we can see it, touch it, imagine it, we can see it, touch it, live in it. It is here. live in it. It is here. live in it. It is here. So, how do we talk about it? How do we So, how do we talk about it? How do we So, how do we talk about it? How do we make it happen? Bill McKibben is a make it happen? Bill McKibben is a make it happen? Bill McKibben is a Schuman distinguished scholar of Schuman distinguished scholar of Schuman distinguished scholar of environmental studies at Mbury College, environmental studies at Mbury College, environmental studies at Mbury College, founder of 350.org, a climate action founder of 350.org, a climate action founder of 350.org, a climate action group, as well as third act, which is group, as well as third act, which is group, as well as third act, which is organizing people over 60 on climate organizing people over 60 on climate organizing people over 60 on climate change. He is a contributing writer at change. He is a contributing writer at change. He is a contributing writer at the New Yorker. He writes the substack, the New Yorker. He writes the substack, the New Yorker. He writes the substack, the crucial years, and his most recent the crucial years, and his most recent the crucial years, and his most recent book is Here Comes the Sun, a Last book is Here Comes the Sun, a Last book is Here Comes the Sun, a Last Chance for the Climate and a Fresh Chance for the Climate and a Fresh Chance for the Climate and a Fresh Chance for Civilization. As always, my Chance for Civilization. As always, my Chance for Civilization. As always, my email esrainshow@ny times.com.

>> Bill McKibben, welcome back to the show. >> Bill McKibben, welcome back to the show. >> Very good to be back with you. >> Very good to be back with you. >> Very good to be back with you. >> So, you have a line that people think of >> So, you have a line that people think of >> So, you have a line that people think of clean energy still like Whole Foods clean energy still like Whole Foods clean energy still like Whole Foods energy. It's virtuous, pricey, a bit of energy. It's virtuous, pricey, a bit of energy. It's virtuous, pricey, a bit of a flex when in fact you say it's become a flex when in fact you say it's become a flex when in fact you say it's become the Costco of energy. Tell me about the Costco of energy. Tell me about the Costco of energy. Tell me about that. cheap, available on the shelf in that. cheap, available on the shelf in that. cheap, available on the shelf in bulk, ready to go. Uh the stuff that we bulk, ready to go. Uh the stuff that we bulk, ready to go. Uh the stuff that we spent my whole lifetime calling spent my whole lifetime calling spent my whole lifetime calling alternative energy from the sun and the alternative energy from the sun and the alternative energy from the sun and the wind is now the obvious common sense wind is now the obvious common sense wind is now the obvious common sense straightforward way to produce power. straightforward way to produce power. straightforward way to produce power. Sometime earlier this decade, we passed Sometime earlier this decade, we passed Sometime earlier this decade, we passed some invisible line where it became some invisible line where it became some invisible line where it became cheaper to produce energy from the sun cheaper to produce energy from the sun cheaper to produce energy from the sun and the wind than from setting stuff on and the wind than from setting stuff on and the wind than from setting stuff on fire. That's a big line by the way. I fire. That's a big line by the way. I fire. That's a big line by the way. I mean Darwin said fire and language were mean Darwin said fire and language were mean Darwin said fire and language were the two things that marked our species. the two things that marked our species. the two things that marked our species. Uh but now we live on a planet where the Uh but now we live on a planet where the Uh but now we live on a planet where the cheapest way to make energy is to point cheapest way to make energy is to point cheapest way to make energy is to point a sheet of glass at the sun. a sheet of glass at the sun. a sheet of glass at the sun. >> So I want to create a distinction here >> So I want to create a distinction here >> So I want to create a distinction here because sometimes the numbers we use can because sometimes the numbers we use can because sometimes the numbers we use can shift back and forth. There are a lot of shift back and forth. There are a lot of shift back and forth. There are a lot of things we use energy for. M things we use energy for. M things we use energy for. M >> uh solar energy >> uh solar energy >> uh solar energy generally speaking becomes electricity generally speaking becomes electricity generally speaking becomes electricity which can also be stored in batteries.

which can also be stored in batteries. which can also be stored in batteries. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I mean we make ammonia, we have fuels, >> I mean we make ammonia, we have fuels, >> I mean we make ammonia, we have fuels, we have jet fuel, cement, etc. we have jet fuel, cement, etc. we have jet fuel, cement, etc. >> And those things you cannot for the most >> And those things you cannot for the most >> And those things you cannot for the most part use of the sun and the wind for part use of the sun and the wind for part use of the sun and the wind for those are the things we know how to fix those are the things we know how to fix those are the things we know how to fix and the things we don't. I see you and the things we don't. I see you and the things we don't. I see you getting getting getting >> we're very quickly very quickly moving >> we're very quickly very quickly moving >> we're very quickly very quickly moving in all those directions too. I mean, the in all those directions too. I mean, the in all those directions too. I mean, the things that are easiest are uh are is things that are easiest are uh are is things that are easiest are uh are is electric power, but electric power is electric power, but electric power is electric power, but electric power is quickly going to have to supplant, you quickly going to have to supplant, you quickly going to have to supplant, you know, liquid fuel for driving cars. know, liquid fuel for driving cars. know, liquid fuel for driving cars. That's the biggest thing we use liquid That's the biggest thing we use liquid That's the biggest thing we use liquid fuel for and for running furnace in your fuel for and for running furnace in your fuel for and for running furnace in your basement. You don't need it anymore basement. You don't need it anymore basement. You don't need it anymore because you can stick in a heat pump and because you can stick in a heat pump and because you can stick in a heat pump and it's cheaper, more efficient, uh, and it's cheaper, more efficient, uh, and it's cheaper, more efficient, uh, and really a bit of a miracle. It's able to really a bit of a miracle. It's able to really a bit of a miracle. It's able to use electricity to take latent heat out use electricity to take latent heat out use electricity to take latent heat out of the air and turn it either to the of the air and turn it either to the of the air and turn it either to the heating or the cooling that you'd like heating or the cooling that you'd like heating or the cooling that you'd like in your house. Mark Jacobson at in your house. Mark Jacobson at in your house. Mark Jacobson at Stanford, who's kind of the been the Stanford, who's kind of the been the Stanford, who's kind of the been the authority on this, authority on this, authority on this, >> the most optimistic on renewables of the >> the most optimistic on renewables of the >> the most optimistic on renewables of the major modelers, major modelers, major modelers, >> the most optimistic of the major >> the most optimistic of the major >> the most optimistic of the major modelers and the one whose predictions modelers and the one whose predictions modelers and the one whose predictions have come by far the closest to reality have come by far the closest to reality have come by far the closest to reality over the last two decades. He's very over the last two decades. He's very over the last two decades. He's very clear. He's modeled the data for I think clear. He's modeled the data for I think clear. He's modeled the data for I think now 150 countries showing how you can now 150 countries showing how you can now 150 countries showing how you can provide all the power you need from sun provide all the power you need from sun provide all the power you need from sun and wind and water.

and wind and water. and wind and water. >> Yeah. For electricity and then you have >> Yeah. For electricity and then you have >> Yeah. For electricity and then you have to use the other suite of new to use the other suite of new to use the other suite of new technologies. If sun and wind and technologies. If sun and wind and technologies. If sun and wind and batteries are the trinity of sort of batteries are the trinity of sort of batteries are the trinity of sort of generating generating generating capacity, the trinity of consumption for capacity, the trinity of consumption for capacity, the trinity of consumption for Americans anyway are the EV/ the ebike, Americans anyway are the EV/ the ebike, Americans anyway are the EV/ the ebike, the heat pump and the induction cooktop the heat pump and the induction cooktop the heat pump and the induction cooktop to replace the open campfire in your to replace the open campfire in your to replace the open campfire in your kitchen. We used to have this whole set kitchen. We used to have this whole set kitchen. We used to have this whole set of things we called hard to abate of things we called hard to abate of things we called hard to abate sectors. Uh things like steel making. sectors. Uh things like steel making. sectors. Uh things like steel making. The last couple of years, people have The last couple of years, people have The last couple of years, people have started figuring out how to do this with started figuring out how to do this with started figuring out how to do this with electricity. electricity. electricity. The one thing that seems hard to imagine The one thing that seems hard to imagine The one thing that seems hard to imagine is transcontinental jet travel. is transcontinental jet travel. is transcontinental jet travel. Although the Chinese are now quickly Although the Chinese are now quickly Although the Chinese are now quickly playing around with uh mediumh hall playing around with uh mediumh hall playing around with uh mediumh hall battery powered jets. Up in Vermont battery powered jets. Up in Vermont battery powered jets. Up in Vermont where I live, one of our big new where I live, one of our big new where I live, one of our big new companies, Beta Technologies, is doing companies, Beta Technologies, is doing companies, Beta Technologies, is doing short hall aircraft that run on short hall aircraft that run on short hall aircraft that run on electricity. All of a sudden, there electricity. All of a sudden, there electricity. All of a sudden, there really is an abundance of energy. So, really is an abundance of energy. So, really is an abundance of energy. So, we're not short of energy, you know, but we're not short of energy, you know, but we're not short of energy, you know, but we are short of time. uh because if we are short of time. uh because if we are short of time. uh because if we're going to make any real difference we're going to make any real difference we're going to make any real difference in the single most critical question in the single most critical question in the single most critical question that humans face which is the rapid that humans face which is the rapid that humans face which is the rapid heating of the earth then we have to do heating of the earth then we have to do heating of the earth then we have to do this very fast faster than economic

this very fast faster than economic this very fast faster than economic forces and things by themselves would forces and things by themselves would forces and things by themselves would produce. produce. produce. So, one of the the amazing places I So, one of the the amazing places I So, one of the the amazing places I think you see something happening that think you see something happening that think you see something happening that feels almost unimaginable in America feels almost unimaginable in America feels almost unimaginable in America right now is in Australia where the right now is in Australia where the right now is in Australia where the solar revolution has moved into solar revolution has moved into solar revolution has moved into something that almost sounds like something that almost sounds like something that almost sounds like utopic. What's happening in Australia? utopic. What's happening in Australia? utopic. What's happening in Australia? Australia is now producing so much solar Australia is now producing so much solar Australia is now producing so much solar power uh and wind power that in the power uh and wind power that in the power uh and wind power that in the middle of the day they have more than middle of the day they have more than middle of the day they have more than they need. So, they're trying to get they need. So, they're trying to get they need. So, they're trying to get people to uh switch some of their demand people to uh switch some of their demand people to uh switch some of their demand to the middle of the day. And the way to the middle of the day. And the way to the middle of the day. And the way that they're doing it is saying to that they're doing it is saying to that they're doing it is saying to Australians, uh, you get free Australians, uh, you get free Australians, uh, you get free electricity between noon and 3. So, you electricity between noon and 3. So, you electricity between noon and 3. So, you can imagine Australians are busy digging can imagine Australians are busy digging can imagine Australians are busy digging out the owner's manual for their out the owner's manual for their out the owner's manual for their dishwasher because it turns out that dishwasher because it turns out that dishwasher because it turns out that there's a way to make it run at a there's a way to make it run at a there's a way to make it run at a particular time, which none of us have particular time, which none of us have particular time, which none of us have ever investigated because we haven't ever investigated because we haven't ever investigated because we haven't needed to. the same thing with the EV, needed to. the same thing with the EV, needed to. the same thing with the EV, but they're also out there buying but they're also out there buying but they're also out there buying storage batteries, which are now cheap, storage batteries, which are now cheap, storage batteries, which are now cheap, so they can fill them up in the so they can fill them up in the so they can fill them up in the afternoon and run the household at afternoon and run the household at afternoon and run the household at night. That's a miracle. I mean, the night. That's a miracle. I mean, the night. That's a miracle. I mean, the first solar cell was invented at Bell first solar cell was invented at Bell first solar cell was invented at Bell Labs in 1954.

Labs in 1954. Labs in 1954. There are people listening to this There are people listening to this There are people listening to this program who were old enough in the 1950s program who were old enough in the 1950s program who were old enough in the 1950s to be putting dimes in payoneses. And if to be putting dimes in payoneses. And if to be putting dimes in payoneses. And if they did, they helped fund the they did, they helped fund the they did, they helped fund the development of the first solar cell. development of the first solar cell. development of the first solar cell. Now, when we built the first one, which Now, when we built the first one, which Now, when we built the first one, which by the way, since we're sitting here in by the way, since we're sitting here in by the way, since we're sitting here in the Times building next to the story of the Times building next to the story of the Times building next to the story of the first solar cell on the front page the first solar cell on the front page the first solar cell on the front page of the Times, directly next to it, it of the Times, directly next to it, it of the Times, directly next to it, it butts into a story uh about the first butts into a story uh about the first butts into a story uh about the first field trials of the polio vaccine. So field trials of the polio vaccine. So field trials of the polio vaccine. So that gives you some idea of the kind of that gives you some idea of the kind of that gives you some idea of the kind of strange twists of history that we're, strange twists of history that we're, strange twists of history that we're, you know, since we're currently living you know, since we're currently living you know, since we're currently living in America that's trying not only to get in America that's trying not only to get in America that's trying not only to get rid of the wonders of clean energy but rid of the wonders of clean energy but rid of the wonders of clean energy but also the wonders of vaccines, you know, also the wonders of vaccines, you know, also the wonders of vaccines, you know, but at the time this was the most but at the time this was the most but at the time this was the most expensive power in the world. The only expensive power in the world. The only expensive power in the world. The only thing you could use it for was thing you could use it for was thing you could use it for was satellites. satellites. satellites. But iteratively we've gotten better and But iteratively we've gotten better and But iteratively we've gotten better and better in a kind of dance between better in a kind of dance between better in a kind of dance between activism and engineering that finally by activism and engineering that finally by activism and engineering that finally by now has produced this thing that well now has produced this thing that well now has produced this thing that well has literally become for parts of the has literally become for parts of the has literally become for parts of the day on one of our continents too cheap day on one of our continents too cheap day on one of our continents too cheap to meter to meter to meter >> activism engineering and and I know >> activism engineering and and I know >> activism engineering and and I know you're sort of including this in there you're sort of including this in there you're sort of including this in there but state policy a number of governments but state policy a number of governments but state policy a number of governments around the world Germany was a key mover around the world Germany was a key mover around the world Germany was a key mover here America has been on and off but you here America has been on and off but you here America has been on and off but you know until now pretty on a key mover know until now pretty on a key mover know until now pretty on a key mover here and China of course

here and China of course here and China of course pumped money into creating a market for pumped money into creating a market for pumped money into creating a market for something that was not yet economically something that was not yet economically something that was not yet economically feasible just on its own cost and in feasible just on its own cost and in feasible just on its own cost and in doing that they pulled forward all this doing that they pulled forward all this doing that they pulled forward all this technology so now it is increasingly technology so now it is increasingly technology so now it is increasingly economically feasible on its own it's economically feasible on its own it's economically feasible on its own it's you know she as we're talking about is you know she as we're talking about is you know she as we're talking about is Costco of energy but but I do think Costco of energy but but I do think Costco of energy but but I do think there's an interesting underlying um there's an interesting underlying um there's an interesting underlying um thing worth thinking about there which thing worth thinking about there which thing worth thinking about there which is that we often treat technology and is that we often treat technology and is that we often treat technology and policy as separate spheres from each policy as separate spheres from each policy as separate spheres from each other but they're not policy can create other but they're not policy can create other but they're not policy can create technology so let's go back to the great technology so let's go back to the great technology so let's go back to the great missed opportunity which was the 1970s missed opportunity which was the 1970s missed opportunity which was the 1970s Jimmy Carter facing an oil crisis and Jimmy Carter facing an oil crisis and Jimmy Carter facing an oil crisis and with the first intimations of some of with the first intimations of some of with the first intimations of some of the climate effects of fossil fuel uh the climate effects of fossil fuel uh the climate effects of fossil fuel uh decides that solar is the way out uh he decides that solar is the way out uh he decides that solar is the way out uh he puts solar panels famously on the White puts solar panels famously on the White puts solar panels famously on the White House, but he goes to give a speech House, but he goes to give a speech House, but he goes to give a speech where he says uh prophetically, sadly, where he says uh prophetically, sadly, where he says uh prophetically, sadly, as it turns out, a generation from now, as it turns out, a generation from now, as it turns out, a generation from now, this solar heater can either be a this solar heater can either be a this solar heater can either be a curiosity, curiosity, curiosity, a museum piece, a museum piece, a museum piece, an example of a road an example of a road an example of a road not taken, not taken, not taken, or it can be just a small part of one of or it can be just a small part of one of or it can be just a small part of one of the greatest and most exciting the greatest and most exciting the greatest and most exciting adventures.

adventures. adventures. ever undertaken by the American people. ever undertaken by the American people. ever undertaken by the American people. >> He actually says that >> He actually says that >> He actually says that >> he puts money sufficient people thought >> he puts money sufficient people thought >> he puts money sufficient people thought to power the R&D such that America would to power the R&D such that America would to power the R&D such that America would have have have >> 20% >> 20% >> 20% of all the energy we use of all the energy we use of all the energy we use from the sun. from the sun. from the sun. >> Had that happened, we would live on a >> Had that happened, we would live on a >> Had that happened, we would live on a different planet, a cooler one. Uh different planet, a cooler one. Uh different planet, a cooler one. Uh instead, of course, Ronald Reagan ripped instead, of course, Ronald Reagan ripped instead, of course, Ronald Reagan ripped the solar panels off the White House. the solar panels off the White House. the solar panels off the White House. More importantly, he ripped that money More importantly, he ripped that money More importantly, he ripped that money out of the federal budget and committed out of the federal budget and committed out of the federal budget and committed us to the project of evermore drilling, us to the project of evermore drilling, us to the project of evermore drilling, which is what's landed us where we are which is what's landed us where we are which is what's landed us where we are now. now. now. >> So, let's talk through some of the >> So, let's talk through some of the >> So, let's talk through some of the objections or concerns people have here. objections or concerns people have here. objections or concerns people have here. >> Australia, lot of sun, >> Australia, lot of sun, >> Australia, lot of sun, very warm. very warm. very warm. >> Half of America, 180 million people live >> Half of America, 180 million people live >> Half of America, 180 million people live close to the same latitude as Australia. close to the same latitude as Australia. close to the same latitude as Australia. But here's something that will at least But here's something that will at least But here's something that will at least give you some sense of possibility.

give you some sense of possibility. give you some sense of possibility. California is the place in the US that California is the place in the US that California is the place in the US that committed most thoroughly to building committed most thoroughly to building committed most thoroughly to building out renewable energy. Sometime in the out renewable energy. Sometime in the out renewable energy. Sometime in the last 2 years, they've passed a real last 2 years, they've passed a real last 2 years, they've passed a real tipping point. Most days now in tipping point. Most days now in tipping point. Most days now in California, they produce more than 100% California, they produce more than 100% California, they produce more than 100% of their electricity for long stretches of their electricity for long stretches of their electricity for long stretches of the day from clean energy. When night of the day from clean energy. When night of the day from clean energy. When night falls on the Golden State, uh, often now falls on the Golden State, uh, often now falls on the Golden State, uh, often now the biggest source of supply to the grid the biggest source of supply to the grid the biggest source of supply to the grid are batteries that have spent the are batteries that have spent the are batteries that have spent the afternoon soaking up excess sunshine. afternoon soaking up excess sunshine. afternoon soaking up excess sunshine. The bottom line is that California, The bottom line is that California, The bottom line is that California, fourth largest economy in the world, is fourth largest economy in the world, is fourth largest economy in the world, is using 60% less natural gas to produce using 60% less natural gas to produce using 60% less natural gas to produce electricity than they were 3 years ago. electricity than they were 3 years ago. electricity than they were 3 years ago. That's a very big shift. a number here That's a very big shift. a number here That's a very big shift. a number here that I or a comparison here I thought that I or a comparison here I thought that I or a comparison here I thought was very vivid which is that the amount was very vivid which is that the amount was very vivid which is that the amount of battery power and storage California of battery power and storage California of battery power and storage California has added in the past I think it was has added in the past I think it was has added in the past I think it was three years is equivalent to having three years is equivalent to having three years is equivalent to having built 12 new nuclear power plants and if built 12 new nuclear power plants and if built 12 new nuclear power plants and if California built 12 nuclear power plants California built 12 nuclear power plants California built 12 nuclear power plants we would talk about it we would talk about it we would talk about it >> all the time >> all the time >> all the time >> it would be a big political topic >> it would be a big political topic >> it would be a big political topic >> yes indeed batteries are like large >> yes indeed batteries are like large >> yes indeed batteries are like large beige boxes you know so they're not as beige boxes you know so they're not as beige boxes you know so they're not as interesting um but yes batteries interesting um but yes batteries interesting um but yes batteries are quickly turning are quickly turning are quickly turning night into day. Um, and sun is not the night into day. Um, and sun is not the night into day. Um, and sun is not the only thing we have going for us. Wind only thing we have going for us. Wind only thing we have going for us. Wind power is now essentially as cheap as power is now essentially as cheap as power is now essentially as cheap as solar power. And wind power is beautiful

solar power. And wind power is beautiful solar power. And wind power is beautiful in that it complements the sun in that it complements the sun in that it complements the sun perfectly. It complements it uh perfectly. It complements it uh perfectly. It complements it uh geographically. Higher latitudes with geographically. Higher latitudes with geographically. Higher latitudes with less sun tend to have more wind. It less sun tend to have more wind. It less sun tend to have more wind. It complements it temporarily. uh in the complements it temporarily. uh in the complements it temporarily. uh in the winter when the sun is lower in the sky, winter when the sun is lower in the sky, winter when the sun is lower in the sky, we tend to get more wind. If we build we tend to get more wind. If we build we tend to get more wind. If we build these things in tandem and then we put these things in tandem and then we put these things in tandem and then we put batteries next to them, we're talking batteries next to them, we're talking batteries next to them, we're talking 24/7 power. 24/7 power. 24/7 power. >> So the concern you hear about that is >> So the concern you hear about that is >> So the concern you hear about that is that is 24/7 power. Sometimes um in some that is 24/7 power. Sometimes um in some that is 24/7 power. Sometimes um in some places, not everywhere, not in all places, not everywhere, not in all places, not everywhere, not in all places. The batteries that we have at places. The batteries that we have at places. The batteries that we have at scale do not hold power forever. So you scale do not hold power forever. So you scale do not hold power forever. So you still have significant intermittency still have significant intermittency still have significant intermittency issues. issues. issues. >> The batteries >> The batteries >> The batteries >> when I when I talk to climate models, >> when I when I talk to climate models, >> when I when I talk to climate models, they're they worry about this. They they they're they worry about this. They they they're they worry about this. They they don't dis they don't don't dis they don't don't dis they don't >> sure but let's be clear batteries are >> sure but let's be clear batteries are >> sure but let's be clear batteries are now if the last 5 years was about sun now if the last 5 years was about sun now if the last 5 years was about sun and wind. The next five are about and wind. The next five are about and wind. The next five are about batteries and this technology is now batteries and this technology is now batteries and this technology is now moving at extraordinary pace. So all of moving at extraordinary pace. So all of moving at extraordinary pace. So all of a sudden we're assembling battery packs a sudden we're assembling battery packs a sudden we're assembling battery packs that last easily 8 hours. So we're going that last easily 8 hours. So we're going that last easily 8 hours. So we're going overnight. But people are putting up overnight. But people are putting up overnight. But people are putting up increasingly batteries that can hold increasingly batteries that can hold increasingly batteries that can hold power much longer than that. And the power much longer than that. And the power much longer than that. And the technologies that accomplish them get technologies that accomplish them get technologies that accomplish them get more remarkable with each passing month.

more remarkable with each passing month. more remarkable with each passing month. The big one of the big new batteries The big one of the big new batteries The big one of the big new batteries going in for a big data center in the going in for a big data center in the going in for a big data center in the Midwest uses Midwest uses Midwest uses the oxidation of iron, essentially rust the oxidation of iron, essentially rust the oxidation of iron, essentially rust as the storage mechanism for electric as the storage mechanism for electric as the storage mechanism for electric power. The Chinese have now moved not power. The Chinese have now moved not power. The Chinese have now moved not entirely but increasingly from lithium entirely but increasingly from lithium entirely but increasingly from lithium to sodium as sodium is the fifth most to sodium as sodium is the fifth most to sodium as sodium is the fifth most common element in the earth's crust I common element in the earth's crust I common element in the earth's crust I think. Um so so technology is think. Um so so technology is think. Um so so technology is increasingly making this much much much increasingly making this much much much increasingly making this much much much easier to imagine. easier to imagine. easier to imagine. >> So let's talk a bit about the the global >> So let's talk a bit about the the global >> So let's talk a bit about the the global energy picture that's been built on energy picture that's been built on energy picture that's been built on these technologies. So in April 2026, these technologies. So in April 2026, these technologies. So in April 2026, the global energy think tank Ember, they the global energy think tank Ember, they the global energy think tank Ember, they released their global electricity review released their global electricity review released their global electricity review is, you know better than me, a big is, you know better than me, a big is, you know better than me, a big moment every year for energy monks. It moment every year for energy monks. It moment every year for energy monks. It found that 75% of global electricity found that 75% of global electricity found that 75% of global electricity growth in 2025 was met by solar alone, growth in 2025 was met by solar alone, growth in 2025 was met by solar alone, which is amazing. which is amazing. which is amazing. >> Renewables were over a third of power >> Renewables were over a third of power >> Renewables were over a third of power generation for the first time, generation for the first time, generation for the first time, overtaking coal. And I found this kind overtaking coal. And I found this kind overtaking coal. And I found this kind of wild. I think it defies a lot of of wild. I think it defies a lot of of wild. I think it defies a lot of people's expectations. In 2025 in China people's expectations. In 2025 in China people's expectations. In 2025 in China and India, fossil fuel generation fell and India, fossil fuel generation fell and India, fossil fuel generation fell for the first time.

for the first time. for the first time. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I often hear when you start talking >> I often hear when you start talking >> I often hear when you start talking about energy and climate politics in about energy and climate politics in about energy and climate politics in America, people say, "Well, China and America, people say, "Well, China and America, people say, "Well, China and Indian aren't going to do it, and so it Indian aren't going to do it, and so it Indian aren't going to do it, and so it doesn't matter what we do." But China's doesn't matter what we do." But China's doesn't matter what we do." But China's been probably the world's most important been probably the world's most important been probably the world's most important driver of electrote. driver of electrote. driver of electrote. >> China is, let's let's be clear about >> China is, let's let's be clear about >> China is, let's let's be clear about this. Not only are they the biggest this. Not only are they the biggest this. Not only are they the biggest driver of electric, they're using it to driver of electric, they're using it to driver of electric, they're using it to assume a position of technological and assume a position of technological and assume a position of technological and economic primacy on this planet that economic primacy on this planet that economic primacy on this planet that will probably come with a kind of will probably come with a kind of will probably come with a kind of political primacy, too. political primacy, too. political primacy, too. >> And they're doing it with things that if >> And they're doing it with things that if >> And they're doing it with things that if you're an American patriot, we should you're an American patriot, we should you're an American patriot, we should own. I mean, we talked about the first own. I mean, we talked about the first own. I mean, we talked about the first solar cell in 1954. first world's first solar cell in 1954. first world's first solar cell in 1954. first world's first industrial wind turbine was 20 miles industrial wind turbine was 20 miles industrial wind turbine was 20 miles south of my house in Castleton, Vermont south of my house in Castleton, Vermont south of my house in Castleton, Vermont on Grandpa's Knob. Watching the Trump on Grandpa's Knob. Watching the Trump on Grandpa's Knob. Watching the Trump administration over the last 18 months, administration over the last 18 months, administration over the last 18 months, I don't think there's ever been an act I don't think there's ever been an act I don't think there's ever been an act of national economic self-sabotage that of national economic self-sabotage that of national economic self-sabotage that quite compares with our decision to quite compares with our decision to quite compares with our decision to deliver lock, stock, and barrel the deliver lock, stock, and barrel the deliver lock, stock, and barrel the future to our theoretical main future to our theoretical main future to our theoretical main adversary. And now the Chinese, by the adversary. And now the Chinese, by the adversary. And now the Chinese, by the way, have a huge supply of cheap, clean way, have a huge supply of cheap, clean way, have a huge supply of cheap, clean energy that they can use for anything energy that they can use for anything energy that they can use for anything that they want.

that they want. that they want. You're you're more um hooked into the You're you're more um hooked into the You're you're more um hooked into the world of AI than I am, but you know that world of AI than I am, but you know that world of AI than I am, but you know that electricity is the sinoquinon of getting electricity is the sinoquinon of getting electricity is the sinoquinon of getting this done. this done. this done. They have endless amounts of cheap They have endless amounts of cheap They have endless amounts of cheap electricity. electricity. electricity. I mean, this pace at which the Chinese I mean, this pace at which the Chinese I mean, this pace at which the Chinese have worked is astonishing. This time have worked is astonishing. This time have worked is astonishing. This time last year, the Chinese were putting up 3 last year, the Chinese were putting up 3 last year, the Chinese were putting up 3 gawatts of solar power a day. Now, a gawatts of solar power a day. Now, a gawatts of solar power a day. Now, a gigawatt is the rough equivalent of a gigawatt is the rough equivalent of a gigawatt is the rough equivalent of a large coal fired power plant. So, they large coal fired power plant. So, they large coal fired power plant. So, they were putting up one of those made out of were putting up one of those made out of were putting up one of those made out of solar panels every 8 hours. Okay? solar panels every 8 hours. Okay? solar panels every 8 hours. Okay? People, I think, can barely grasp the People, I think, can barely grasp the People, I think, can barely grasp the speed at which this has been happening. speed at which this has been happening. speed at which this has been happening. And now, the good news is that it's And now, the good news is that it's And now, the good news is that it's leaking out in all kinds of places. leaking out in all kinds of places. leaking out in all kinds of places. Pakistan across the border is arguably Pakistan across the border is arguably Pakistan across the border is arguably the place hit hardest by climate change the place hit hardest by climate change the place hit hardest by climate change on this planet. But geography played on this planet. But geography played on this planet. But geography played them one good trick. Gave them a border them one good trick. Gave them a border them one good trick. Gave them a border with China across which have come over with China across which have come over with China across which have come over the last 18 months an astonishing number the last 18 months an astonishing number the last 18 months an astonishing number of solar panels. If you go look at of solar panels. If you go look at of solar panels. If you go look at Google Earth images of the rooftops of Google Earth images of the rooftops of Google Earth images of the rooftops of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, they're just Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, they're just Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, they're just a sea of solar panels. This wasn't a a sea of solar panels. This wasn't a a sea of solar panels. This wasn't a government program. This was people fed government program. This was people fed government program. This was people fed up with expensive and unreliable up with expensive and unreliable up with expensive and unreliable electricity who bought cheap Chinese electricity who bought cheap Chinese electricity who bought cheap Chinese solar panels and went on YouTube and Tik solar panels and went on YouTube and Tik solar panels and went on YouTube and Tik Tok to learn how to put them together.

Tok to learn how to put them together. Tok to learn how to put them together. We often talk about this energy We often talk about this energy We often talk about this energy transition transition transition only in terms of climate change but only in terms of climate change but only in terms of climate change but pollution is part of it too. I was in pollution is part of it too. I was in pollution is part of it too. I was in Lahore in I want to say it was 2019 Lahore in I want to say it was 2019 Lahore in I want to say it was 2019 probably probably probably and and and breathing scorched your throat. Yeah, breathing scorched your throat. Yeah, breathing scorched your throat. Yeah, >> it it it was acurid. I mean, and I >> it it it was acurid. I mean, and I >> it it it was acurid. I mean, and I thought one of the things that was thought one of the things that was thought one of the things that was actually hard about being there was just actually hard about being there was just actually hard about being there was just thinking about all the kids I was seeing thinking about all the kids I was seeing thinking about all the kids I was seeing on, you know, the back of the motorbikes on, you know, the back of the motorbikes on, you know, the back of the motorbikes with their parents and thinking about with their parents and thinking about with their parents and thinking about them breathing this in all of the time. them breathing this in all of the time. them breathing this in all of the time. >> But you saw this in China not long ago. >> But you saw this in China not long ago. >> But you saw this in China not long ago. I mean, we used to talk constantly about I mean, we used to talk constantly about I mean, we used to talk constantly about pollution in China. And now we're making pollution in China. And now we're making pollution in China. And now we're making in many places such fast progress on in many places such fast progress on in many places such fast progress on pollution that it is actually somewhat pollution that it is actually somewhat pollution that it is actually somewhat accelerated warming is my understanding accelerated warming is my understanding accelerated warming is my understanding because because because well I mean let's do the good part of well I mean let's do the good part of well I mean let's do the good part of this first. You know I remember being in this first. You know I remember being in this first. You know I remember being in Beijing on days when you literally Beijing on days when you literally Beijing on days when you literally couldn't see across the street. Uh in 10 couldn't see across the street. Uh in 10 couldn't see across the street. Uh in 10 years they've gotten marketkedly years they've gotten marketkedly years they've gotten marketkedly cleaner. 60% of the cars sold in China cleaner. 60% of the cars sold in China cleaner. 60% of the cars sold in China last month came with a plug. you know, last month came with a plug. you know, last month came with a plug. you know, they're driving EVs. So, not only are they're driving EVs. So, not only are they're driving EVs. So, not only are they is the air much cleaner, I I I they is the air much cleaner, I I I they is the air much cleaner, I I I haven't been to China this year, but haven't been to China this year, but haven't been to China this year, but I've talked to friends recently in I've talked to friends recently in I've talked to friends recently in Shanghai who were saying the biggest Shanghai who were saying the biggest Shanghai who were saying the biggest change is it's way quieter than it used change is it's way quieter than it used change is it's way quieter than it used to be because so much of the traffic is to be because so much of the traffic is to be because so much of the traffic is electric. And does this make a big electric. And does this make a big electric. And does this make a big difference?

difference? difference? You know, you talked about L'ore, New You know, you talked about L'ore, New You know, you talked about L'ore, New Delhi has 5 million school children. Two Delhi has 5 million school children. Two Delhi has 5 million school children. Two and a half million of them have and a half million of them have and a half million of them have irreversible lung damage from breathing irreversible lung damage from breathing irreversible lung damage from breathing the air. Okay. And we don't need that the air. Okay. And we don't need that the air. Okay. And we don't need that anymore. We can deal with this and deal anymore. We can deal with this and deal anymore. We can deal with this and deal with it quickly. And as you say, China with it quickly. And as you say, China with it quickly. And as you say, China and India are figuring that out. Pretty and India are figuring that out. Pretty and India are figuring that out. Pretty much every place is starting to figure much every place is starting to figure much every place is starting to figure it out. I mean, as of last month, the it out. I mean, as of last month, the it out. I mean, as of last month, the country that uh looks like it's the new country that uh looks like it's the new country that uh looks like it's the new Pakistan in terms of the speed of its Pakistan in terms of the speed of its Pakistan in terms of the speed of its deployment of renewables is the deployment of renewables is the deployment of renewables is the Philippines. Philippines. Philippines. They were hard hit by the shutdown of They were hard hit by the shutdown of They were hard hit by the shutdown of the straight of Hormuse. This became the the straight of Hormuse. This became the the straight of Hormuse. This became the clear obvious way out. Everybody is clear obvious way out. Everybody is clear obvious way out. Everybody is figuring out a that they don't want to figuring out a that they don't want to figuring out a that they don't want to rely on something that can be bottled up rely on something that can be bottled up rely on something that can be bottled up behind a waterway no one had ever behind a waterway no one had ever behind a waterway no one had ever thought about, you know, before this. thought about, you know, before this. thought about, you know, before this. And B, they don't want to depend for And B, they don't want to depend for And B, they don't want to depend for energy on a country as erratic and energy on a country as erratic and energy on a country as erratic and unreliable as the United States. So I unreliable as the United States. So I unreliable as the United States. So I want to take this in some pieces but I want to take this in some pieces but I want to take this in some pieces but I want to stay for a minute on want to stay for a minute on want to stay for a minute on the differences in living in a clean the differences in living in a clean the differences in living in a clean energy electrified world. And one reason energy electrified world. And one reason energy electrified world. And one reason I want to spend time on it is I think I want to spend time on it is I think I want to spend time on it is I think for a very long time the ask has been a for a very long time the ask has been a for a very long time the ask has been a kind of sacrifice kind of sacrifice kind of sacrifice >> and we have not talked very much about >> and we have not talked very much about >> and we have not talked very much about what could be better if we get this what could be better if we get this what could be better if we get this right.

right. right. >> I mean let's just talk about it for a >> I mean let's just talk about it for a >> I mean let's just talk about it for a minute. We live in a country built by minute. We live in a country built by minute. We live in a country built by the automobile, the defining feature of the automobile, the defining feature of the automobile, the defining feature of America in the 20th century. Um, for America in the 20th century. Um, for America in the 20th century. Um, for people who like cars, once you've been people who like cars, once you've been people who like cars, once you've been in an EV, in an EV, in an EV, you're not going back to a gas car. you're not going back to a gas car. you're not going back to a gas car. They're quiet. They have almost no They're quiet. They have almost no They're quiet. They have almost no moving parts, so they don't need to be moving parts, so they don't need to be moving parts, so they don't need to be repaired. repaired. repaired. Even better than the EV is the ebike, Even better than the EV is the ebike, Even better than the EV is the ebike, which I think may turn out to be the which I think may turn out to be the which I think may turn out to be the transformative invention of our time on transformative invention of our time on transformative invention of our time on Earth, you know. Um, Earth, you know. Um, Earth, you know. Um, >> that's a big statement right there. >> that's a big statement right there. >> that's a big statement right there. >> Well, you remember, it's funny because >> Well, you remember, it's funny because >> Well, you remember, it's funny because you remember, you may be too young to you remember, you may be too young to you remember, you may be too young to remember this, uh, 20 years ago or remember this, uh, 20 years ago or remember this, uh, 20 years ago or something, everybody was saying, something, everybody was saying, something, everybody was saying, "There's a fancy new invention coming "There's a fancy new invention coming "There's a fancy new invention coming that's going to change everything." And that's going to change everything." And that's going to change everything." And it turned out to be the Segway. it turned out to be the Segway. it turned out to be the Segway. >> The Segway. I do remember that. >> The Segway. I do remember that. >> The Segway. I do remember that. >> That was the most disappointing. Well, >> That was the most disappointing. Well, >> That was the most disappointing. Well, the ebike's different than that. the ebike's different than that. the ebike's different than that. >> Kids, look up a Segway if you want to >> Kids, look up a Segway if you want to >> Kids, look up a Segway if you want to see if you want to see what we're see if you want to see what we're see if you want to see what we're talking about. It's an it's a talking about. It's an it's a talking about. It's an it's a interesting visual interesting visual interesting visual >> everywhere around the world. You can for >> everywhere around the world. You can for >> everywhere around the world. You can for a few pennies worth of electricity go a few pennies worth of electricity go a few pennies worth of electricity go miles and miles and miles on a bike.

miles and miles and miles on a bike. miles and miles and miles on a bike. It's pretty remarkable technology. Um, I It's pretty remarkable technology. Um, I It's pretty remarkable technology. Um, I often don't get the ebike. I do a lot of often don't get the ebike. I do a lot of often don't get the ebike. I do a lot of city biking around New York and it's a city biking around New York and it's a city biking around New York and it's a testament to the technology of the the testament to the technology of the the testament to the technology of the the ebike that I often don't choose it ebike that I often don't choose it ebike that I often don't choose it because it is too fast. too capable. It because it is too fast. too capable. It because it is too fast. too capable. It takes away also the fun of writing. takes away also the fun of writing. takes away also the fun of writing. >> And you're and you're a Puritan, so you >> And you're and you're a Puritan, so you >> And you're and you're a Puritan, so you know. know. know. >> No, I actually mean I find it a little >> No, I actually mean I find it a little >> No, I actually mean I find it a little bit unnerving to move that fast on New bit unnerving to move that fast on New bit unnerving to move that fast on New York City streets. York City streets. York City streets. I I don't fully trust myself in my I I don't fully trust myself in my I I don't fully trust myself in my reflexes. I want to move to maybe I reflexes. I want to move to maybe I reflexes. I want to move to maybe I don't want to call this technological don't want to call this technological don't want to call this technological utopianism. I feel like every time you utopianism. I feel like every time you utopianism. I feel like every time you talk about a way technology can make talk about a way technology can make talk about a way technology can make people's lives better, it's like, are people's lives better, it's like, are people's lives better, it's like, are you a technological utopian? Are you now you a technological utopian? Are you now you a technological utopian? Are you now or have you ever been a technological or have you ever been a technological or have you ever been a technological utopian? utopian? utopian? But a lot of what we can't do that we But a lot of what we can't do that we But a lot of what we can't do that we would like to do is because the energy would like to do is because the energy would like to do is because the energy to do it is too expensive. to do it is too expensive. to do it is too expensive. So a lot of the world lives underwater So a lot of the world lives underwater So a lot of the world lives underwater scarcity. scarcity. scarcity. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The cost of deselination >> The cost of deselination >> The cost of deselination is very heavily the cost of energy that is very heavily the cost of energy that is very heavily the cost of energy that goes into deselination.

goes into deselination. goes into deselination. >> A lot of the world lives under food >> A lot of the world lives under food >> A lot of the world lives under food scarcity. scarcity. scarcity. The cost of vertical farming is very The cost of vertical farming is very The cost of vertical farming is very heavily influenced by the cost of energy heavily influenced by the cost of energy heavily influenced by the cost of energy because a huge amount of the um price of because a huge amount of the um price of because a huge amount of the um price of it is light. it is light. it is light. There are a series of you know climate There are a series of you know climate There are a series of you know climate change which we talk about change which we talk about change which we talk about given the path we are on there is a given the path we are on there is a given the path we are on there is a world in the future where we need to world in the future where we need to world in the future where we need to begin doing capture of carbon in the begin doing capture of carbon in the begin doing capture of carbon in the atmosphere. That is not economical to atmosphere. That is not economical to atmosphere. That is not economical to do. It has other problems but is not do. It has other problems but is not do. It has other problems but is not economical to do if you do not have economical to do if you do not have economical to do if you do not have cheap and abundant clean energy. cheap and abundant clean energy. cheap and abundant clean energy. I picked these three because I think I picked these three because I think I picked these three because I think they're interesting in a very particular they're interesting in a very particular they're interesting in a very particular way. They one could really improve the way. They one could really improve the way. They one could really improve the lives of people, right? Having enough lives of people, right? Having enough lives of people, right? Having enough water, having enough food, not living in water, having enough food, not living in water, having enough food, not living in a heat trap. But the other is that there a heat trap. But the other is that there a heat trap. But the other is that there ways where technology and a more ways where technology and a more ways where technology and a more harmonious relationship with the earth harmonious relationship with the earth harmonious relationship with the earth can actually connect to each other. that can actually connect to each other. that can actually connect to each other. that there for instance farming is a good there for instance farming is a good there for instance farming is a good example where if we were able to do more example where if we were able to do more example where if we were able to do more farming vertically we would not have to farming vertically we would not have to farming vertically we would not have to use as much land for agriculture as we use as much land for agriculture as we use as much land for agriculture as we currently do. There are things that currently do. There are things that currently do. There are things that would become possible that are not now would become possible that are not now would become possible that are not now possible that are really profound.

possible that are really profound. possible that are really profound. >> Even now you can see small miracles and >> Even now you can see small miracles and >> Even now you can see small miracles and this book of mine I describe being in a this book of mine I describe being in a this book of mine I describe being in a warehouse. This would have been 18 warehouse. This would have been 18 warehouse. This would have been 18 months ago in Oakland. Um, and in sort months ago in Oakland. Um, and in sort months ago in Oakland. Um, and in sort of beat up industrial district of of beat up industrial district of of beat up industrial district of Oakland and behind one door there were Oakland and behind one door there were Oakland and behind one door there were these two guys, one of whom had come these two guys, one of whom had come these two guys, one of whom had come from Tesla. Uh, who were pioneering how from Tesla. Uh, who were pioneering how from Tesla. Uh, who were pioneering how to make magnesium. Um, magnesium is a to make magnesium. Um, magnesium is a to make magnesium. Um, magnesium is a structural metal. It's works as well as structural metal. It's works as well as structural metal. It's works as well as steel or aluminum, but it's been there's steel or aluminum, but it's been there's steel or aluminum, but it's been there's been a high energy cost associated with been a high energy cost associated with been a high energy cost associated with making it. But it had other making it. But it had other making it. But it had other technological advantages. So for technological advantages. So for technological advantages. So for instance, unlike aluminum, you can instance, unlike aluminum, you can instance, unlike aluminum, you can interrupt the smelting process. It interrupt the smelting process. It interrupt the smelting process. It doesn't freeze into a crystallin state doesn't freeze into a crystallin state doesn't freeze into a crystallin state if the temperature deviates a few if the temperature deviates a few if the temperature deviates a few degrees. So what these guys had figured degrees. So what these guys had figured degrees. So what these guys had figured out was that in a place like California, out was that in a place like California, out was that in a place like California, which now has a big surplus of which now has a big surplus of which now has a big surplus of electricity in the afternoon, and hence electricity in the afternoon, and hence electricity in the afternoon, and hence it's very cheap, they could run their it's very cheap, they could run their it's very cheap, they could run their smelter during the afternoon, turn it smelter during the afternoon, turn it smelter during the afternoon, turn it off at night, come back the next day and off at night, come back the next day and off at night, come back the next day and run it again. They were making metal out run it again. They were making metal out run it again. They were making metal out of sunlight and seawater. That gives you of sunlight and seawater. That gives you of sunlight and seawater. That gives you some sense of the possibilities. Uh uh some sense of the possibilities. Uh uh some sense of the possibilities. Uh uh and there are 10,000 stories like that and there are 10,000 stories like that and there are 10,000 stories like that around the world. So what widen that out around the world. So what widen that out around the world. So what widen that out for me. What do you think becomes for me. What do you think becomes for me. What do you think becomes possible here or in other countries possible here or in other countries possible here or in other countries right in a world where there is more

right in a world where there is more right in a world where there is more accessible energy? accessible energy? accessible energy? more accessible energy is at, you know, more accessible energy is at, you know, more accessible energy is at, you know, the the synagoguan known for getting the the synagoguan known for getting the the synagoguan known for getting anywhere near what we've called the anywhere near what we've called the anywhere near what we've called the sustainable development goals around the sustainable development goals around the sustainable development goals around the world. And you really get a sense of world. And you really get a sense of world. And you really get a sense of this when you get to Africa where this when you get to Africa where this when you get to Africa where there's still 6 or 700 million people there's still 6 or 700 million people there's still 6 or 700 million people with no real electricity. with no real electricity. with no real electricity. I remember being in a village in uh I remember being in a village in uh I remember being in a village in uh Ghana uh far away from Acra where there Ghana uh far away from Acra where there Ghana uh far away from Acra where there would never had power uh and they'd put would never had power uh and they'd put would never had power uh and they'd put up one of these community micro grids up one of these community micro grids up one of these community micro grids the day before with rudimentary wire 50 the day before with rudimentary wire 50 the day before with rudimentary wire 50 panels and rudimentary wiring out to panels and rudimentary wiring out to panels and rudimentary wiring out to each of the very small homes in this each of the very small homes in this each of the very small homes in this village. village. village. And I was sitting the next day with the And I was sitting the next day with the And I was sitting the next day with the village elders uh talking. They kept village elders uh talking. They kept village elders uh talking. They kept handing me bottles of cold water to handing me bottles of cold water to handing me bottles of cold water to drink, which I was grateful for. I'm a drink, which I was grateful for. I'm a drink, which I was grateful for. I'm a verter. The equatorial sun is not my verter. The equatorial sun is not my verter. The equatorial sun is not my thing. But it took me in my clueless thing. But it took me in my clueless thing. But it took me in my clueless western way 15 minutes to figure out why western way 15 minutes to figure out why western way 15 minutes to figure out why they were so proud to be handing me they were so proud to be handing me they were so proud to be handing me bottles of cold water until the day bottles of cold water until the day bottles of cold water until the day before. There really hadn't been before. There really hadn't been before. There really hadn't been anything cold in that place. No one had anything cold in that place. No one had anything cold in that place. No one had ever had a refrigerator. Now the most ever had a refrigerator. Now the most ever had a refrigerator. Now the most important use for that refrigerator was important use for that refrigerator was important use for that refrigerator was going to be storing vaccines but uh the going to be storing vaccines but uh the going to be storing vaccines but uh the the other use was going to be providing the other use was going to be providing the other use was going to be providing cold water some of the time and in fact cold water some of the time and in fact cold water some of the time and in fact ice cream because there were kids having

ice cream because there were kids having ice cream because there were kids having their first taste of it that day too. their first taste of it that day too. their first taste of it that day too. You really get a sense of what a miracle You really get a sense of what a miracle You really get a sense of what a miracle this is. One of the other dimensions of this is. One of the other dimensions of this is. One of the other dimensions of that is it makes it possible for a that is it makes it possible for a that is it makes it possible for a village with a little bit of money to do village with a little bit of money to do village with a little bit of money to do it on their own. It does not need to be it on their own. It does not need to be it on their own. It does not need to be granted to them by a centralized granted to them by a centralized granted to them by a centralized authority. And there are many many many authority. And there are many many many authority. And there are many many many places in the world where the reason places in the world where the reason places in the world where the reason they don't have power and another place they don't have power and another place they don't have power and another place does even in that same country is does even in that same country is does even in that same country is they're part of the disfavored ethnic they're part of the disfavored ethnic they're part of the disfavored ethnic minority or just there weren't enough of minority or just there weren't enough of minority or just there weren't enough of them there to put them up in the them there to put them up in the them there to put them up in the priority list of where gets the the priority list of where gets the the priority list of where gets the the infrastructure. So when you don't have infrastructure. So when you don't have infrastructure. So when you don't have large capital investments large capital investments large capital investments as what you need in order to have steady as what you need in order to have steady as what you need in order to have steady energy energy energy really remarkable things become really remarkable things become really remarkable things become possible. And some of those things are possible. And some of those things are possible. And some of those things are very um you wouldn't think of right very um you wouldn't think of right very um you wouldn't think of right away. So I was at another village that away. So I was at another village that away. So I was at another village that had had uh electricity for 6 months and had had uh electricity for 6 months and had had uh electricity for 6 months and I asked the some of the older people in I asked the some of the older people in I asked the some of the older people in the village what had changed. And one of the village what had changed. And one of the village what had changed. And one of the things they said was our families the things they said was our families the things they said was our families that moved to the city will come out and that moved to the city will come out and that moved to the city will come out and visit us now. Um uh because it doesn't visit us now. Um uh because it doesn't visit us now. Um uh because it doesn't get dark the minute the sun goes down get dark the minute the sun goes down get dark the minute the sun goes down because we have a fan. you know those because we have a fan. you know those because we have a fan. you know those sort of things those are enormous sort of things those are enormous sort of things those are enormous differences for people. I I do want to differences for people. I I do want to differences for people. I I do want to spend some time in the space of spend some time in the space of spend some time in the space of possibility

possibility possibility and in the space not of the technologies and in the space not of the technologies and in the space not of the technologies that clean energy make possible now or that clean energy make possible now or that clean energy make possible now or in the next year or two but if you in the next year or two but if you in the next year or two but if you imagine something we don't imagine that imagine something we don't imagine that imagine something we don't imagine that often which is the wealth of clean often which is the wealth of clean often which is the wealth of clean energy clean energy abundance every energy clean energy abundance every energy clean energy abundance every person in the world but let's for now person in the world but let's for now person in the world but let's for now talk about Americans every American talk about Americans every American talk about Americans every American having access to much more energy per having access to much more energy per having access to much more energy per American than than we do Now American than than we do Now American than than we do Now it it's easier for people to imagine it it's easier for people to imagine it it's easier for people to imagine cheap energy, right, where we're talking cheap energy, right, where we're talking cheap energy, right, where we're talking about Australia, then what that kind of about Australia, then what that kind of about Australia, then what that kind of clean energy abundance makes possible clean energy abundance makes possible clean energy abundance makes possible that is not now possible. But so when that is not now possible. But so when that is not now possible. But so when you think of that world, what is in it you think of that world, what is in it you think of that world, what is in it that is not in our world. So look, I that is not in our world. So look, I that is not in our world. So look, I I'll say truthfully, I don't think I'll say truthfully, I don't think I'll say truthfully, I don't think Americans in our personal lives need Americans in our personal lives need Americans in our personal lives need access to much more energy than we have access to much more energy than we have access to much more energy than we have now. We already use huge quantities of now. We already use huge quantities of now. We already use huge quantities of it and we use it for my money strangely. it and we use it for my money strangely. it and we use it for my money strangely. We build enormous houses that are turn We build enormous houses that are turn We build enormous houses that are turn out not even to make us very happy out not even to make us very happy out not even to make us very happy because our families are all off in because our families are all off in because our families are all off in separate ends of them and so on and so separate ends of them and so on and so separate ends of them and so on and so forth. So for me the pleasure is not forth. So for me the pleasure is not forth. So for me the pleasure is not imagining imagining imagining >> now who's a puritan >> now who's a puritan >> now who's a puritan >> all of this the pleasure comes in uh uh >> all of this the pleasure comes in uh uh >> all of this the pleasure comes in uh uh imagining by contrast what it how it imagining by contrast what it how it imagining by contrast what it how it allows us to imagine a kind of different allows us to imagine a kind of different allows us to imagine a kind of different political world. If you depend on a political world. If you depend on a political world. If you depend on a resource that's only available in a few resource that's only available in a few resource that's only available in a few places then the people who control those

places then the people who control those places then the people who control those few places end up with way too much few places end up with way too much few places end up with way too much power. Our biggest uh oil and gas barons power. Our biggest uh oil and gas barons power. Our biggest uh oil and gas barons in this country were the Koch brothers. in this country were the Koch brothers. in this country were the Koch brothers. They used their winnings, I think, to They used their winnings, I think, to They used their winnings, I think, to erode the foundations of our democracy erode the foundations of our democracy erode the foundations of our democracy over the last three decades. If you over the last three decades. If you over the last three decades. If you wonder why it was so easy for Donald wonder why it was so easy for Donald wonder why it was so easy for Donald Trump to kick them over, it's because Trump to kick them over, it's because Trump to kick them over, it's because they were kind of rotten to start with. they were kind of rotten to start with. they were kind of rotten to start with. Vladimir Putin, uh, you know, his Vladimir Putin, uh, you know, his Vladimir Putin, uh, you know, his winnings in the hydrocarbon casino have winnings in the hydrocarbon casino have winnings in the hydrocarbon casino have funded a land war in Europe in the 21st funded a land war in Europe in the 21st funded a land war in Europe in the 21st century. the king of Saudi Arabia. And century. the king of Saudi Arabia. And century. the king of Saudi Arabia. And so one of the abundances that comes, I so one of the abundances that comes, I so one of the abundances that comes, I think, with clean energy is a uh is a think, with clean energy is a uh is a think, with clean energy is a uh is a kind of liberation from the kind of liberation from the kind of liberation from the concentrations of power that we've grown concentrations of power that we've grown concentrations of power that we've grown accustomed to with dirty energy. accustomed to with dirty energy. accustomed to with dirty energy. >> I have to be honest, I'm pretty >> I have to be honest, I'm pretty >> I have to be honest, I'm pretty skeptical of this vision. I want to skeptical of this vision. I want to skeptical of this vision. I want to believe it, right? I want to believe it. believe it, right? I want to believe it. believe it, right? I want to believe it. But I look around and it's of course But I look around and it's of course But I look around and it's of course true that oligarchs and authoritarians true that oligarchs and authoritarians true that oligarchs and authoritarians in the world we live in, many of them in the world we live in, many of them in the world we live in, many of them have derived their power and their have derived their power and their have derived their power and their wealth from fossil fuels, right? That's wealth from fossil fuels, right? That's wealth from fossil fuels, right? That's inarguable.

inarguable. inarguable. But you look around and has Xi Jinping But you look around and has Xi Jinping But you look around and has Xi Jinping lost power as China has become more of lost power as China has become more of lost power as China has become more of an electrotte state. The richest man in an electrotte state. The richest man in an electrotte state. The richest man in the world, Elon Musk, is one of the the world, Elon Musk, is one of the the world, Elon Musk, is one of the great clean vehicle entrepreneurs. Oh, great clean vehicle entrepreneurs. Oh, great clean vehicle entrepreneurs. Oh, come on, Bill. That's ridiculous. You come on, Bill. That's ridiculous. You come on, Bill. That's ridiculous. You don't got to You don't have to like the don't got to You don't have to like the don't got to You don't have to like the guy, but if you're not going to give guy, but if you're not going to give guy, but if you're not going to give Tesla, it's due on the EV transition. Tesla, it's due on the EV transition. Tesla, it's due on the EV transition. You know, You know, You know, >> Tesla now is like the uh >> Tesla now is like the uh >> Tesla now is like the uh 75th best EV you could ever purchase, 75th best EV you could ever purchase, 75th best EV you could ever purchase, you know, you know, you know, >> but the only one in America that makes >> but the only one in America that makes >> but the only one in America that makes money. money. money. >> The only one in America that makes money >> The only one in America that makes money >> The only one in America that makes money because we don't let many competitors because we don't let many competitors because we don't let many competitors from the rest of the world. Uh from the rest of the world. Uh from the rest of the world. Uh >> Well, I agree. Listen, we can talk about >> Well, I agree. Listen, we can talk about >> Well, I agree. Listen, we can talk about whether or not we should bring in the whether or not we should bring in the whether or not we should bring in the China EV, but what I am saying China EV, but what I am saying China EV, but what I am saying >> I I take your point. What what I'm >> I I take your point. What what I'm >> I I take your point. What what I'm saying is China is concentrations of saying is China is concentrations of saying is China is concentrations of money. money. money. >> Yes, but there won't be concentrations >> Yes, but there won't be concentrations >> Yes, but there won't be concentrations of wealth in the same way. of wealth in the same way. of wealth in the same way. >> You know, one of the questions that >> You know, one of the questions that >> You know, one of the questions that people always ask is why doesn't Exxon people always ask is why doesn't Exxon people always ask is why doesn't Exxon just go into the solar panel business.

just go into the solar panel business. just go into the solar panel business. Uh especially now that we know that Uh especially now that we know that Uh especially now that we know that Exxon knew all about climate change back Exxon knew all about climate change back Exxon knew all about climate change back in the 1980s. They had their own good in the 1980s. They had their own good in the 1980s. They had their own good internal research that let them know internal research that let them know internal research that let them know what was coming and would have given what was coming and would have given what was coming and would have given them a hefty lead in them a hefty lead in them a hefty lead in getting ahead of this curve. The CEO of getting ahead of this curve. The CEO of getting ahead of this curve. The CEO of Exxon explained the answer to that year Exxon explained the answer to that year Exxon explained the answer to that year before last. He said essentially, "We're before last. He said essentially, "We're before last. He said essentially, "We're never going to do this because it never going to do this because it never going to do this because it doesn't offer above average returns for doesn't offer above average returns for doesn't offer above average returns for our investors." And he was right because our investors." And he was right because our investors." And he was right because once you've got the solar panel up, when once you've got the solar panel up, when once you've got the solar panel up, when the sun rises in the morning, it the sun rises in the morning, it the sun rises in the morning, it delivers your energy for free. And from delivers your energy for free. And from delivers your energy for free. And from Exxon's point of view, that's the Exxon's point of view, that's the Exxon's point of view, that's the stupidest business model, you know, of stupidest business model, you know, of stupidest business model, you know, of all time. all time. all time. >> So, I want to I'm going to hold my >> So, I want to I'm going to hold my >> So, I want to I'm going to hold my skepticism at least some of that. But skepticism at least some of that. But skepticism at least some of that. But one thing, you know, hear people talking one thing, you know, hear people talking one thing, you know, hear people talking about, I'm curious to know to what about, I'm curious to know to what about, I'm curious to know to what degree you buy this, is that degree you buy this, is that degree you buy this, is that >> for a long time the topic was climate >> for a long time the topic was climate >> for a long time the topic was climate politics and now it's climate economics. politics and now it's climate economics. politics and now it's climate economics. So obviously Donald Trump came into So obviously Donald Trump came into So obviously Donald Trump came into office the second time gutted much of office the second time gutted much of office the second time gutted much of the key wind and solar subsidies in the the key wind and solar subsidies in the the key wind and solar subsidies in the inflation reduction act and when I talk inflation reduction act and when I talk inflation reduction act and when I talk to people around these industries to people around these industries to people around these industries they're upset about that but it has not they're upset about that but it has not they're upset about that but it has not wrecked the industry or the transition wrecked the industry or the transition wrecked the industry or the transition >> in the way it might have been another >> in the way it might have been another >> in the way it might have been another time or do you do you feel that that's time or do you do you feel that that's time or do you do you feel that that's the hopeful vision there's a lot there's the hopeful vision there's a lot there's the hopeful vision there's a lot there's been some data even in the last couple been some data even in the last couple been some data even in the last couple of weeks looking at the number of of weeks looking at the number of of weeks looking at the number of projects that have been cancelled projects that have been cancelled projects that have been cancelled And I think what we're seeing for the

And I think what we're seeing for the And I think what we're seeing for the moment still is the momentum that was moment still is the momentum that was moment still is the momentum that was built up in the Biden years. And I think built up in the Biden years. And I think built up in the Biden years. And I think what we're going to see pretty quickly what we're going to see pretty quickly what we're going to see pretty quickly is just how effectively the Trump is just how effectively the Trump is just how effectively the Trump administration has quashed a lot of that administration has quashed a lot of that administration has quashed a lot of that momentum. Um it's I mean the And why momentum. Um it's I mean the And why momentum. Um it's I mean the And why would that be true if the economics are would that be true if the economics are would that be true if the economics are as good as you say they are? Because as good as you say they are? Because as good as you say they are? Because there's a tension there between saying there's a tension there between saying there's a tension there between saying this is a Costco of energy, it's cheaper this is a Costco of energy, it's cheaper this is a Costco of energy, it's cheaper than anything else and also taking away than anything else and also taking away than anything else and also taking away government subsidies can destroy it. government subsidies can destroy it. government subsidies can destroy it. because those well it's not even just because those well it's not even just because those well it's not even just taking away government subsidies. Um I taking away government subsidies. Um I taking away government subsidies. Um I mean so first let's talk about the mean so first let's talk about the mean so first let's talk about the economic part. I mean the economics of economic part. I mean the economics of economic part. I mean the economics of renewable energy are different than the renewable energy are different than the renewable energy are different than the economics of fossil energy. All the cost economics of fossil energy. All the cost economics of fossil energy. All the cost comes up front. Solar panel uh once comes up front. Solar panel uh once comes up front. Solar panel uh once you've got it up the electricity is you've got it up the electricity is you've got it up the electricity is free. So getting people enough money to free. So getting people enough money to free. So getting people enough money to they can finance that solar panel and they can finance that solar panel and they can finance that solar panel and get it up one thing. It's important, but get it up one thing. It's important, but get it up one thing. It's important, but taking away those subsidies wouldn't taking away those subsidies wouldn't taking away those subsidies wouldn't have been completely fatal. What's been have been completely fatal. What's been have been completely fatal. What's been fatal is the full-on absolute onslaught fatal is the full-on absolute onslaught fatal is the full-on absolute onslaught of the federal government against of the federal government against of the federal government against renewable energy. In fact, the US renewable energy. In fact, the US renewable energy. In fact, the US taxpayers have written checks for taxpayers have written checks for taxpayers have written checks for billions of dollars to buy back the wind billions of dollars to buy back the wind billions of dollars to buy back the wind leasing rights that companies had paid leasing rights that companies had paid leasing rights that companies had paid for in the Biden administration for in the Biden administration for in the Biden administration completely in an effort to make sure completely in an effort to make sure completely in an effort to make sure that wind industry never expands that wind industry never expands that wind industry never expands offshore. Federal lands have been offshore. Federal lands have been offshore. Federal lands have been essentially put off limits to solar essentially put off limits to solar essentially put off limits to solar panels off federal lands. the federal

panels off federal lands. the federal panels off federal lands. the federal government on looking at onshore wind uh government on looking at onshore wind uh government on looking at onshore wind uh which powers much of the Midwest. Uh uh which powers much of the Midwest. Uh uh which powers much of the Midwest. Uh uh they've in the last year stopped giving they've in the last year stopped giving they've in the last year stopped giving out any new permits on completely absurd out any new permits on completely absurd out any new permits on completely absurd and speurious grounds about that it and speurious grounds about that it and speurious grounds about that it might I don't know what uh do something might I don't know what uh do something might I don't know what uh do something to radar. None of this is true. It's all to radar. None of this is true. It's all to radar. None of this is true. It's all just carrying water for the fossil fuel just carrying water for the fossil fuel just carrying water for the fossil fuel industry. As you'll recall, fairly industry. As you'll recall, fairly industry. As you'll recall, fairly publicly, candidate Trump declared to publicly, candidate Trump declared to publicly, candidate Trump declared to the fossil fuel industry, "If you give the fossil fuel industry, "If you give the fossil fuel industry, "If you give me a billion dollars for my campaign, me a billion dollars for my campaign, me a billion dollars for my campaign, I'll give you anything you want." I'll give you anything you want." I'll give you anything you want." >> So, this is a good transition into where >> So, this is a good transition into where >> So, this is a good transition into where climate politics stands. the ferocity climate politics stands. the ferocity climate politics stands. the ferocity of the movement between where climate of the movement between where climate of the movement between where climate politics stood in the Biden years politics stood in the Biden years politics stood in the Biden years uh not just the inflation reduction act uh not just the inflation reduction act uh not just the inflation reduction act but the way it existed as a constant but the way it existed as a constant but the way it existed as a constant concern as a lens through which much of concern as a lens through which much of concern as a lens through which much of the world was seen the world was seen the world was seen >> all the Fortune 500 companies were happy >> all the Fortune 500 companies were happy >> all the Fortune 500 companies were happy to at least talk a good game here to at least talk a good game here to at least talk a good game here >> to what has happened since it's not just >> to what has happened since it's not just >> to what has happened since it's not just the demolition of those subsidies not the demolition of those subsidies not the demolition of those subsidies not just the closing of federal lands to just the closing of federal lands to just the closing of federal lands to solar panels.

solar panels. solar panels. >> But what I've heard people describe as >> But what I've heard people describe as >> But what I've heard people describe as climate hushing. climate hushing. climate hushing. >> So you don't hear Democratic politicians >> So you don't hear Democratic politicians >> So you don't hear Democratic politicians talk about climate nearly as much as he talk about climate nearly as much as he talk about climate nearly as much as he did before. did before. did before. >> You do not hear the Fortune 500 >> You do not hear the Fortune 500 >> You do not hear the Fortune 500 companies doing this. And this is true companies doing this. And this is true companies doing this. And this is true not just for, you know, centristy or not just for, you know, centristy or not just for, you know, centristy or moderate Dems, but but on the left, moderate Dems, but but on the left, moderate Dems, but but on the left, right? If you Oh, it's completely like I right? If you Oh, it's completely like I right? If you Oh, it's completely like I I I I >> the the real I mean the perfect example >> the the real I mean the perfect example >> the the real I mean the perfect example is close to home is Kathy Hokll the is close to home is Kathy Hokll the is close to home is Kathy Hokll the governor of New York who's essentially governor of New York who's essentially governor of New York who's essentially gutted the state's climate policy over gutted the state's climate policy over gutted the state's climate policy over the last few months. Uh again out of the last few months. Uh again out of the last few months. Uh again out of some combination of feelalty to donors some combination of feelalty to donors some combination of feelalty to donors and uh worries about affordability as and uh worries about affordability as and uh worries about affordability as the new mantra. Well, so you did a kind the new mantra. Well, so you did a kind the new mantra. Well, so you did a kind of air quotes around affordability, but of air quotes around affordability, but of air quotes around affordability, but I think actually Democratic politicians I think actually Democratic politicians I think actually Democratic politicians do have worries about do have worries about do have worries about >> Oh, I agree. >> Oh, I agree. >> Oh, I agree. >> And not just about affordability, but a >> And not just about affordability, but a >> And not just about affordability, but a generalized sense that climate was generalized sense that climate was generalized sense that climate was something that was putting them out of something that was putting them out of something that was putting them out of step with voters. Not because voters step with voters. Not because voters step with voters. Not because voters don't care about it in a poll, but don't care about it in a poll, but don't care about it in a poll, but because the versions of this I've heard because the versions of this I've heard because the versions of this I've heard from from Democrats or one that it from from Democrats or one that it from from Democrats or one that it seemed that they got a lot of survey seemed that they got a lot of survey seemed that they got a lot of survey data and they were persuaded by people data and they were persuaded by people data and they were persuaded by people that the picture the electorate had of that the picture the electorate had of that the picture the electorate had of them was that they care about climate them was that they care about climate them was that they care about climate and not the day-to-day struggle, right, and not the day-to-day struggle, right, and not the day-to-day struggle, right, of of people working on the pocketbook.

of of people working on the pocketbook. of of people working on the pocketbook. And the second the second dimension of And the second the second dimension of And the second the second dimension of it was simply a seeing something which it was simply a seeing something which it was simply a seeing something which was that when oil prices went up when was that when oil prices went up when was that when oil prices went up when prices in general went up that that prices in general went up that that prices in general went up that that really dissolved really dissolved really dissolved >> right >> right >> right >> the willingness people had for >> the willingness people had for >> the willingness people had for >> so >> so >> so >> sacrifice or limitations >> sacrifice or limitations >> sacrifice or limitations >> and there are other factors here too >> and there are other factors here too >> and there are other factors here too like the politics sort of movement like the politics sort of movement like the politics sort of movement politics around climate you know politics around climate you know politics around climate you know achieved most of what it had set out to achieved most of what it had set out to achieved most of what it had set out to do with the inflation reduction act that do with the inflation reduction act that do with the inflation reduction act that was the kind of natural endpoint of a was the kind of natural endpoint of a was the kind of natural endpoint of a lot of the work that people had been lot of the work that people had been lot of the work that people had been engaged in for decades. And so a lot of engaged in for decades. And so a lot of engaged in for decades. And so a lot of people sort of disarmed, you know, put people sort of disarmed, you know, put people sort of disarmed, you know, put down their rifles and went off to do the down their rifles and went off to do the down their rifles and went off to do the work of building out this new future. work of building out this new future. work of building out this new future. Um, I've one of the one of the few Um, I've one of the one of the few Um, I've one of the one of the few advantages of being an old person and advantages of being an old person and advantages of being an old person and having been around this story for a very having been around this story for a very having been around this story for a very long time. I wrote what's often called long time. I wrote what's often called long time. I wrote what's often called the first book about what we then called the first book about what we then called the first book about what we then called the greenhouse effect back in the 1980s.

the greenhouse effect back in the 1980s. the greenhouse effect back in the 1980s. Uh is that I've seen these cycles Uh is that I've seen these cycles Uh is that I've seen these cycles >> come and go. We've had, you know, we had >> come and go. We've had, you know, we had >> come and go. We've had, you know, we had intense interest in 1988 intense interest in 1988 intense interest in 1988 and 89. My book ended up in 24 and 89. My book ended up in 24 and 89. My book ended up in 24 languages. Uh then that you know dipped languages. Uh then that you know dipped languages. Uh then that you know dipped uh as the oil industry geared up for the uh as the oil industry geared up for the uh as the oil industry geared up for the coyoto talks and went into a real lull coyoto talks and went into a real lull coyoto talks and went into a real lull as Bush and Cheney took over American as Bush and Cheney took over American as Bush and Cheney took over American policy. Al Gore managed to jin it up policy. Al Gore managed to jin it up policy. Al Gore managed to jin it up again. Uh but then it subsided after the again. Uh but then it subsided after the again. Uh but then it subsided after the failure at Copenhagen. We built a big failure at Copenhagen. We built a big failure at Copenhagen. We built a big movement that made climate change movement that made climate change movement that made climate change important and helped yield the Paris important and helped yield the Paris important and helped yield the Paris Accords. when that momentum began to Accords. when that momentum began to Accords. when that momentum began to flag Greta Tunberg and her movement flag Greta Tunberg and her movement flag Greta Tunberg and her movement emerged and that scared the hell out of emerged and that scared the hell out of emerged and that scared the hell out of Fortune 500 companies and they got on Fortune 500 companies and they got on Fortune 500 companies and they got on board. Now the fossil fuel industry is board. Now the fossil fuel industry is board. Now the fossil fuel industry is fighting has fought successfully back in fighting has fought successfully back in fighting has fought successfully back in this country. Let's be clear, pretty this country. Let's be clear, pretty this country. Let's be clear, pretty much the rest of the world remains much the rest of the world remains much the rest of the world remains committed to working on climate and on a committed to working on climate and on a committed to working on climate and on a >> there's been a fair amount of regression >> there's been a fair amount of regression >> there's been a fair amount of regression in Europe.

in Europe. in Europe. >> We'll see. I mean, the Brits are about >> We'll see. I mean, the Brits are about >> We'll see. I mean, the Brits are about to name a new chancellor. My money's on to name a new chancellor. My money's on to name a new chancellor. My money's on Ed Miband, who's been the uh most Ed Miband, who's been the uh most Ed Miband, who's been the uh most effective energy and climate guy in the effective energy and climate guy in the effective energy and climate guy in the UK, but we'll see. Um, at any rate, I UK, but we'll see. Um, at any rate, I UK, but we'll see. Um, at any rate, I think that this particular cycle of think that this particular cycle of think that this particular cycle of climate hushing is coming quickly to an climate hushing is coming quickly to an climate hushing is coming quickly to an end. Uh in Europe, we've just gone end. Uh in Europe, we've just gone end. Uh in Europe, we've just gone through a heat wave so epic that it's through a heat wave so epic that it's through a heat wave so epic that it's rewriting the politics as it happens. rewriting the politics as it happens. rewriting the politics as it happens. You know, I mean, lots and lots and lots You know, I mean, lots and lots and lots You know, I mean, lots and lots and lots of people dead. Um the earth is about to of people dead. Um the earth is about to of people dead. Um the earth is about to enter a 12 or 18month period unlike any enter a 12 or 18month period unlike any enter a 12 or 18month period unlike any in its history. The El Nino that's in its history. The El Nino that's in its history. The El Nino that's gathering force in the Pacific as we sit gathering force in the Pacific as we sit gathering force in the Pacific as we sit here today looks like it's going to be here today looks like it's going to be here today looks like it's going to be the strongest thing of its kind in a the strongest thing of its kind in a the strongest thing of its kind in a very long time. That means that the very long time. That means that the very long time. That means that the Earth in 2026 and definitely in 2027 is Earth in 2026 and definitely in 2027 is Earth in 2026 and definitely in 2027 is going to see temperatures higher than going to see temperatures higher than going to see temperatures higher than it's ever humans.

it's ever humans. it's ever humans. >> Can you describe I think people have >> Can you describe I think people have >> Can you describe I think people have heard the term but can you describe what heard the term but can you describe what heard the term but can you describe what an El Nino is? El Nino is the uh the an El Nino is? El Nino is the uh the an El Nino is? El Nino is the uh the periodic phenomenon where heat is periodic phenomenon where heat is periodic phenomenon where heat is released in large quantities from the released in large quantities from the released in large quantities from the Pacific and that heat then expresses Pacific and that heat then expresses Pacific and that heat then expresses itself all over the planet and it comes itself all over the planet and it comes itself all over the planet and it comes at a time when say in this country we're at a time when say in this country we're at a time when say in this country we're already vulnerable. Uh we just had the already vulnerable. Uh we just had the already vulnerable. Uh we just had the hottest winter in the western United hottest winter in the western United hottest winter in the western United States by a large margin. And I was in States by a large margin. And I was in States by a large margin. And I was in Colorado yesterday, uh, where there was Colorado yesterday, uh, where there was Colorado yesterday, uh, where there was no snowpack this winter to speak of. And no snowpack this winter to speak of. And no snowpack this winter to speak of. And where yesterday, day before, three where yesterday, day before, three where yesterday, day before, three firefighters died on the Colorado Utah firefighters died on the Colorado Utah firefighters died on the Colorado Utah border fighting what I think is going to border fighting what I think is going to border fighting what I think is going to be one of the earlier fires of the year. be one of the earlier fires of the year. be one of the earlier fires of the year. I think we're going to see, I'm afraid, I think we're going to see, I'm afraid, I think we're going to see, I'm afraid, an extraordinary plague of flame. an extraordinary plague of flame. an extraordinary plague of flame. >> California, I I when I grew up in >> California, I I when I grew up in >> California, I I when I grew up in California, fires happened. California, fires happened. California, fires happened. They were not the They were not the They were not the constant frightening fact of life. They constant frightening fact of life. They constant frightening fact of life. They I mean I had family lose their homes in I mean I had family lose their homes in I mean I had family lose their homes in the LA and and Aladena fires the the LA and and Aladena fires the the LA and and Aladena fires the >> and it has made California into a >> and it has made California into a >> and it has made California into a fundamentally different place to live.

fundamentally different place to live. fundamentally different place to live. >> Look, let's talk about climate in two >> Look, let's talk about climate in two >> Look, let's talk about climate in two dimensions. dimensions. dimensions. The first is um The first is um The first is um the stuff that we can see every day. the stuff that we can see every day. the stuff that we can see every day. Warm air holds more water vapor than Warm air holds more water vapor than Warm air holds more water vapor than cold. That means that in aid areas, cold. That means that in aid areas, cold. That means that in aid areas, we're now seeing lots more evaporation we're now seeing lots more evaporation we're now seeing lots more evaporation and drought and with it fire. And those and drought and with it fire. And those and drought and with it fire. And those fires are now in places that we just fires are now in places that we just fires are now in places that we just would never have thought be even would never have thought be even would never have thought be even possible to catch on fire. Uh once that possible to catch on fire. Uh once that possible to catch on fire. Uh once that water's up in the air, it comes down and water's up in the air, it comes down and water's up in the air, it comes down and it comes down in deluge in wet parts of it comes down in deluge in wet parts of it comes down in deluge in wet parts of the world. my town in Vermont. You know, the world. my town in Vermont. You know, the world. my town in Vermont. You know, we've had two of the worst floods in our we've had two of the worst floods in our we've had two of the worst floods in our history in the course of this decade. history in the course of this decade. history in the course of this decade. The last one isolated our town for days, The last one isolated our town for days, The last one isolated our town for days, weeks. The road both east and west of weeks. The road both east and west of weeks. The road both east and west of town was destroyed by the river. town was destroyed by the river. town was destroyed by the river. Um um so there's that kind of damage Um um so there's that kind of damage Um um so there's that kind of damage that we can see and it is enormous and that we can see and it is enormous and that we can see and it is enormous and it's much worse in the poorest parts of it's much worse in the poorest parts of it's much worse in the poorest parts of the world that have done nothing to the world that have done nothing to the world that have done nothing to cause the problem. Then there's now an cause the problem. Then there's now an cause the problem. Then there's now an emerging emerging emerging uh understanding of the damage we're uh understanding of the damage we're uh understanding of the damage we're starting to do to the most fundamental starting to do to the most fundamental starting to do to the most fundamental physical systems on the planet. The physical systems on the planet. The physical systems on the planet. The jetream draws its power from the jetream draws its power from the jetream draws its power from the temperature differential between the temperature differential between the temperature differential between the equator and the pole.

equator and the pole. equator and the pole. >> Can you describe what the jetream is? >> Can you describe what the jetream is? >> Can you describe what the jetream is? >> The high altitude movement of air and >> The high altitude movement of air and >> The high altitude movement of air and hence weather and whatever around the hence weather and whatever around the hence weather and whatever around the planet. Uh because we've now raised the planet. Uh because we've now raised the planet. Uh because we've now raised the temperature of the poles so temperature of the poles so temperature of the poles so dramatically, the jetream is gone wonky. dramatically, the jetream is gone wonky. dramatically, the jetream is gone wonky. It gets stuck in weird high amplitude It gets stuck in weird high amplitude It gets stuck in weird high amplitude positions. that allows among other positions. that allows among other positions. that allows among other things for these uh extraordinary heat things for these uh extraordinary heat things for these uh extraordinary heat domes like the one that just settled domes like the one that just settled domes like the one that just settled over Europe, the ones we've seen in the over Europe, the ones we've seen in the over Europe, the ones we've seen in the US in recent years. US in recent years. US in recent years. Probably even more remarkable are the Probably even more remarkable are the Probably even more remarkable are the series of currents including the Gulf series of currents including the Gulf series of currents including the Gulf Stream that we call the Atlantic meridal Stream that we call the Atlantic meridal Stream that we call the Atlantic meridal overturning currents AOCH. Together they overturning currents AOCH. Together they overturning currents AOCH. Together they are 100 times the flow of the Amazon are 100 times the flow of the Amazon are 100 times the flow of the Amazon River. They're the biggest heat River. They're the biggest heat River. They're the biggest heat distribution engine on planet Earth. distribution engine on planet Earth. distribution engine on planet Earth. We've always known that there was danger We've always known that there was danger We've always known that there was danger here. As here. As here. As melting, as water, fresh water pours off melting, as water, fresh water pours off melting, as water, fresh water pours off a melting Greenland, it changes the a melting Greenland, it changes the a melting Greenland, it changes the salenity and hence the density of salenity and hence the density of salenity and hence the density of seawater in the North Atlantic. And it's seawater in the North Atlantic. And it's seawater in the North Atlantic. And it's that density differences that drive this that density differences that drive this that density differences that drive this giant gire. We used to think that this giant gire. We used to think that this giant gire. We used to think that this was a problem for the next century. The was a problem for the next century. The was a problem for the next century. The most recent science, the scientist who's most recent science, the scientist who's most recent science, the scientist who's maybe the leading authority in all this maybe the leading authority in all this maybe the leading authority in all this said a few weeks ago in response to the said a few weeks ago in response to the said a few weeks ago in response to the latest series of papers that he thought latest series of papers that he thought latest series of papers that he thought there was a 50% chance of the there was a 50% chance of the there was a 50% chance of the large scale damage beginning collapse of

large scale damage beginning collapse of large scale damage beginning collapse of those currents in the decades ahead. If those currents in the decades ahead. If those currents in the decades ahead. If that happens, it'll be the biggest that happens, it'll be the biggest that happens, it'll be the biggest civilizational event in human history. civilizational event in human history. civilizational event in human history. >> What happens if that happens? Well, I >> What happens if that happens? Well, I >> What happens if that happens? Well, I mean, the first thing is that, you know, mean, the first thing is that, you know, mean, the first thing is that, you know, Western Europe suddenly gets Western Europe suddenly gets Western Europe suddenly gets paradoxically very cold. If you look at paradoxically very cold. If you look at paradoxically very cold. If you look at a map, Milan is on a latitude line with a map, Milan is on a latitude line with a map, Milan is on a latitude line with Montreal. Um, but it's kept artificially Montreal. Um, but it's kept artificially Montreal. Um, but it's kept artificially warm by the flow of heat coming up warm by the flow of heat coming up warm by the flow of heat coming up through these currents. But more through these currents. But more through these currents. But more fundamentally, you begin just a profound fundamentally, you begin just a profound fundamentally, you begin just a profound um that contrast between then the um that contrast between then the um that contrast between then the southern hemisphere and the northern southern hemisphere and the northern southern hemisphere and the northern hemisphere starts to produce the hemisphere starts to produce the hemisphere starts to produce the capacity for storms of a violence we capacity for storms of a violence we capacity for storms of a violence we only imagine in only imagine in only imagine in movies. Um uh everything changes. movies. Um uh everything changes. movies. Um uh everything changes. >> So I think we've now set up that there >> So I think we've now set up that there >> So I think we've now set up that there are three forces happening are three forces happening are three forces happening simultaneously. simultaneously. simultaneously. So we are on a worse track on warming So we are on a worse track on warming So we are on a worse track on warming than we had even believed ourselves to than we had even believed ourselves to than we had even believed ourselves to be. So that's one piece. At the same be. So that's one piece. At the same be. So that's one piece. At the same time, climate tech, energy tech, time, climate tech, energy tech, time, climate tech, energy tech, whatever you want to call it, has also whatever you want to call it, has also whatever you want to call it, has also accelerated faster than anybody had accelerated faster than anybody had accelerated faster than anybody had dared hope. But then there is this kind dared hope. But then there is this kind dared hope. But then there is this kind of intermediary force which is climate of intermediary force which is climate of intermediary force which is climate politics or energy politics for lack of politics or energy politics for lack of politics or energy politics for lack of a better term. And that is where I think a better term. And that is where I think a better term. And that is where I think there is a lot of there is a lot of there is a lot of dispiritedness. I get this feeling that dispiritedness. I get this feeling that dispiritedness. I get this feeling that a lot of people in the climate movement a lot of people in the climate movement a lot of people in the climate movement don't quite know where to go next

don't quite know where to go next don't quite know where to go next because something that I think is quite because something that I think is quite because something that I think is quite tough for movements, I think it happened tough for movements, I think it happened tough for movements, I think it happened to liberalism in general after Obama and to liberalism in general after Obama and to liberalism in general after Obama and when it then hit Trump is finding a very when it then hit Trump is finding a very when it then hit Trump is finding a very high level of success, right, the IRA in high level of success, right, the IRA in high level of success, right, the IRA in this case, this case, this case, >> only to then almost immediately see that >> only to then almost immediately see that >> only to then almost immediately see that undone in a kind of backlash politics, undone in a kind of backlash politics, undone in a kind of backlash politics, all of that traction kind of pulled all of that traction kind of pulled all of that traction kind of pulled back. back. back. it can leave movements a little bit it can leave movements a little bit it can leave movements a little bit shattered. So I I guess I'd ask the shattered. So I I guess I'd ask the shattered. So I I guess I'd ask the question this way. question this way. question this way. What lessons are there to learn if if What lessons are there to learn if if What lessons are there to learn if if what you're saying is comes true in its what you're saying is comes true in its what you're saying is comes true in its own kind of horrible way, the kind of own kind of horrible way, the kind of own kind of horrible way, the kind of politics is going to come back, politics is going to come back, politics is going to come back, >> but having just lived through this, you >> but having just lived through this, you >> but having just lived through this, you know, the the rise and the fall, what know, the the rise and the fall, what know, the the rise and the fall, what has been learned? If you think about the has been learned? If you think about the has been learned? If you think about the climate story, the first 35 years of it climate story, the first 35 years of it climate story, the first 35 years of it post Jim Hansen's testimony in Congress post Jim Hansen's testimony in Congress post Jim Hansen's testimony in Congress in 1988, in 1988, in 1988, those 35 years are spent in a world those 35 years are spent in a world those 35 years are spent in a world where fossil energy is relatively cheap where fossil energy is relatively cheap where fossil energy is relatively cheap and renewable energy is relatively and renewable energy is relatively and renewable energy is relatively expensive. So most of the work of much expensive. So most of the work of much expensive. So most of the work of much of the work of climate movements and of the work of climate movements and of the work of climate movements and things has to be devoted to in essence things has to be devoted to in essence things has to be devoted to in essence making fossil fuel more expensive.

making fossil fuel more expensive. making fossil fuel more expensive. That's what carbon taxes and prices and That's what carbon taxes and prices and That's what carbon taxes and prices and things were. That's why we ran this things were. That's why we ran this things were. That's why we ran this giant divestment campaign that's reached giant divestment campaign that's reached giant divestment campaign that's reached $40 trillion in endowments and $40 trillion in endowments and $40 trillion in endowments and portfolios that began to get out of coal portfolios that began to get out of coal portfolios that began to get out of coal and gas and oil. We wanted to raise the and gas and oil. We wanted to raise the and gas and oil. We wanted to raise the cost of capital. Those things are remain cost of capital. Those things are remain cost of capital. Those things are remain important work, you know, but important work, you know, but important work, you know, but now we live in a world where clean now we live in a world where clean now we live in a world where clean energy is cheaper. That means that the energy is cheaper. That means that the energy is cheaper. That means that the forces of economic gravity are working forces of economic gravity are working forces of economic gravity are working in more or less the right direction now. in more or less the right direction now. in more or less the right direction now. And that explains, I think, why there's And that explains, I think, why there's And that explains, I think, why there's been the extraordinary political been the extraordinary political been the extraordinary political reaction from the fossil fuel industry reaction from the fossil fuel industry reaction from the fossil fuel industry that there's been. That's why they were that there's been. That's why they were that there's been. That's why they were suddenly so in bed with Trump and with suddenly so in bed with Trump and with suddenly so in bed with Trump and with the I mean because remember prior to the I mean because remember prior to the I mean because remember prior to this even the Exxons of the world had this even the Exxons of the world had this even the Exxons of the world had been talking about climate change as a been talking about climate change as a been talking about climate change as a real challenge and we will do what we real challenge and we will do what we real challenge and we will do what we they've now seen the future BP beyond they've now seen the future BP beyond they've now seen the future BP beyond petroleum.

petroleum. petroleum. >> The future is we actually can go beyond >> The future is we actually can go beyond >> The future is we actually can go beyond petroleum. We don't need it anymore and petroleum. We don't need it anymore and petroleum. We don't need it anymore and and we're beginning to dispense with it. and we're beginning to dispense with it. and we're beginning to dispense with it. One of the most interesting parts of the One of the most interesting parts of the One of the most interesting parts of the Iran war has been that oil prices didn't Iran war has been that oil prices didn't Iran war has been that oil prices didn't get any higher than they did. Uh you get any higher than they did. Uh you get any higher than they did. Uh you know that the price of oil topped out at know that the price of oil topped out at know that the price of oil topped out at $130 a barrel. That's largely because $130 a barrel. That's largely because $130 a barrel. That's largely because the Chinese are using something like 5 the Chinese are using something like 5 the Chinese are using something like 5 million barrels a day less than we million barrels a day less than we million barrels a day less than we thought than they were projected to be thought than they were projected to be thought than they were projected to be using. So anyway, using. So anyway, using. So anyway, some clever Democratic politician at a some clever Democratic politician at a some clever Democratic politician at a certain point is going to say to people, certain point is going to say to people, certain point is going to say to people, "Look at Australia. "Look at Australia. "Look at Australia. They're getting free electricity. They're getting free electricity. They're getting free electricity. They don't have more sun and wind than They don't have more sun and wind than They don't have more sun and wind than we have. They live on the same planet we have. They live on the same planet we have. They live on the same planet that we do. we could be doing the same that we do. we could be doing the same that we do. we could be doing the same thing if we had a sensible energy policy thing if we had a sensible energy policy thing if we had a sensible energy policy and I think that that's going to become and I think that that's going to become and I think that that's going to become a ever more enticing argument because a ever more enticing argument because a ever more enticing argument because the rest of the world is not waiting the rest of the world is not waiting the rest of the world is not waiting around uh they are moving especially around uh they are moving especially around uh they are moving especially Asia and you know Asia and you know Asia and you know Asia more or less defines humanity It's Asia more or less defines humanity It's Asia more or less defines humanity It's 60% of the world are moving very very 60% of the world are moving very very 60% of the world are moving very very quickly in this direction.

quickly in this direction. quickly in this direction. >> Some of the parts of climate politics >> Some of the parts of climate politics >> Some of the parts of climate politics that have ended up proving the most that have ended up proving the most that have ended up proving the most politically difficult are the places politically difficult are the places politically difficult are the places where people feel their autonomy is where people feel their autonomy is where people feel their autonomy is being taken away. So in California where being taken away. So in California where being taken away. So in California where it looks likely that Javier Bera is it looks likely that Javier Bera is it looks likely that Javier Bera is going to be the next governor, I think going to be the next governor, I think going to be the next governor, I think it is unlikely given things he has said it is unlikely given things he has said it is unlikely given things he has said and given where the politics have gone and given where the politics have gone and given where the politics have gone that the um the aggression on phasing that the um the aggression on phasing that the um the aggression on phasing out internal combustion engine cars that out internal combustion engine cars that out internal combustion engine cars that you saw under Gavin Newsome is going to you saw under Gavin Newsome is going to you saw under Gavin Newsome is going to move forward. We've talked about Kathy move forward. We've talked about Kathy move forward. We've talked about Kathy Hokll here in New York who's been Hokll here in New York who's been Hokll here in New York who's been shifting out of some of the sort of shifting out of some of the sort of shifting out of some of the sort of major climate projects and targets. Um major climate projects and targets. Um major climate projects and targets. Um the thing that I have heard from many the thing that I have heard from many the thing that I have heard from many politicians who who actually are good on politicians who who actually are good on politicians who who actually are good on this issue and do care about this issue, this issue and do care about this issue, this issue and do care about this issue, but is what they are trying to figure but is what they are trying to figure but is what they are trying to figure out and this is I think some of what the out and this is I think some of what the out and this is I think some of what the inflation reduction act the balance it inflation reduction act the balance it inflation reduction act the balance it was trying to strike was can you move was trying to strike was can you move was trying to strike was can you move the transition fast enough by giving the transition fast enough by giving the transition fast enough by giving people things that they want right people things that they want right people things that they want right subsidies for heat pumps and solar and subsidies for heat pumps and solar and subsidies for heat pumps and solar and so on so on so on without doing the things that I think without doing the things that I think without doing the things that I think they've people have often found are more they've people have often found are more they've people have often found are more politically dangerous which is people's politically dangerous which is people's politically dangerous which is people's feeling you're taking something from feeling you're taking something from feeling you're taking something from them. You're taking their autonomy.

them. You're taking their autonomy. them. You're taking their autonomy. You're taking a technology they like. um You're taking a technology they like. um You're taking a technology they like. um you know people as good as EVs are you know people as good as EVs are you know people as good as EVs are people do people still have range people do people still have range people do people still have range anxiety or they worry about you know anxiety or they worry about you know anxiety or they worry about you know they just have attachment to cars they they just have attachment to cars they they just have attachment to cars they currently have that there's a lot of currently have that there's a lot of currently have that there's a lot of desire people have for options but they desire people have for options but they desire people have for options but they don't want to be told what to do and on don't want to be told what to do and on don't want to be told what to do and on the same time to get where we need to be the same time to get where we need to be the same time to get where we need to be as fast as we need to get there it is as fast as we need to get there it is as fast as we need to get there it is hard to say that that is all going to hard to say that that is all going to hard to say that that is all going to happen through carrots subsidies happen through carrots subsidies happen through carrots subsidies and stories that everybody can agree on. and stories that everybody can agree on. and stories that everybody can agree on. >> Look, let's first again stipulate that >> Look, let's first again stipulate that >> Look, let's first again stipulate that we're mostly just talking about the US we're mostly just talking about the US we're mostly just talking about the US here. here. here. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, which now is about 11% of the global >> Um, which now is about 11% of the global >> Um, which now is about 11% of the global emissions on the planet. So the other emissions on the planet. So the other emissions on the planet. So the other 89% people are to one degree or another 89% people are to one degree or another 89% people are to one degree or another really working at. And these are really working at. And these are really working at. And these are countries where policy seems in some countries where policy seems in some countries where policy seems in some cases to be a little easier to uh figure cases to be a little easier to uh figure cases to be a little easier to uh figure out either because like China you don't out either because like China you don't out either because like China you don't no one gets a say except Xiinping or no one gets a say except Xiinping or no one gets a say except Xiinping or because they're just working more because they're just working more because they're just working more robustly.

robustly. robustly. >> This is actually a question you would >> This is actually a question you would >> This is actually a question you would know the answer to that that I I didn't know the answer to that that I I didn't know the answer to that that I I didn't look at in prep for this. The US is not look at in prep for this. The US is not look at in prep for this. The US is not on its you know Paris pathway etc. Are on its you know Paris pathway etc. Are on its you know Paris pathway etc. Are other countries do you see a fidelity to other countries do you see a fidelity to other countries do you see a fidelity to climate promises there that you don't climate promises there that you don't climate promises there that you don't hear? cuz my understanding is they're hear? cuz my understanding is they're hear? cuz my understanding is they're not being great. not being great. not being great. >> Well, you see >> Well, you see >> Well, you see you see a lot of countries that are um you see a lot of countries that are um you see a lot of countries that are um setting up the conditions now that are setting up the conditions now that are setting up the conditions now that are going to allow them to change going to allow them to change going to allow them to change much more quickly. And in fact, there's much more quickly. And in fact, there's much more quickly. And in fact, there's new data today showing that the US is new data today showing that the US is new data today showing that the US is the main place in the world where the main place in the world where the main place in the world where emissions are increasing now. emissions are increasing now. emissions are increasing now. >> Um which is >> Um which is >> Um which is just unbelievable. I mean, let's be just unbelievable. I mean, let's be just unbelievable. I mean, let's be clear. The US has already put more clear. The US has already put more clear. The US has already put more carbon in the atmosphere than anybody carbon in the atmosphere than anybody carbon in the atmosphere than anybody else, and no one, including China, is else, and no one, including China, is else, and no one, including China, is ever going to match us. Um, uh, ever going to match us. Um, uh, ever going to match us. Um, uh, historically, and it's all still up historically, and it's all still up historically, and it's all still up there. I mean, the stuff that came out there. I mean, the stuff that came out there. I mean, the stuff that came out of the tailpipe of my family's Plymouth of the tailpipe of my family's Plymouth of the tailpipe of my family's Plymouth Fury when I was getting my learner's Fury when I was getting my learner's Fury when I was getting my learner's permit in the 1970s is still up there in permit in the 1970s is still up there in permit in the 1970s is still up there in the atmosphere trapping heat. Okay? So the atmosphere trapping heat. Okay? So the atmosphere trapping heat. Okay? So it's unbelievably shameful that we're it's unbelievably shameful that we're it's unbelievably shameful that we're that we are the outlier here. Uh that we are the outlier here. Uh that we are the outlier here. Uh especially given that we invented the especially given that we invented the especially given that we invented the necessary technology.

necessary technology. necessary technology. Um but I do think that it's not going to Um but I do think that it's not going to Um but I do think that it's not going to be a matter of much longer before be a matter of much longer before be a matter of much longer before politicians start emerging who politicians start emerging who politicians start emerging who understand the ways to talk about and understand the ways to talk about and understand the ways to talk about and act on this issue. And I think it is act on this issue. And I think it is act on this issue. And I think it is probably going to be more carrots than probably going to be more carrots than probably going to be more carrots than sticks. But I think the real thing that sticks. But I think the real thing that sticks. But I think the real thing that happens is that every time a solar panel happens is that every time a solar panel happens is that every time a solar panel goes up, every time an EV drives off the goes up, every time an EV drives off the goes up, every time an EV drives off the showroom, showroom, showroom, uh, every time someone switches to an uh, every time someone switches to an uh, every time someone switches to an ebike from a car because they figured ebike from a car because they figured ebike from a car because they figured out they don't need 3,000 pounds of out they don't need 3,000 pounds of out they don't need 3,000 pounds of sheet metal to get their kids to school. sheet metal to get their kids to school. sheet metal to get their kids to school. Um, every time that happens, the Um, every time that happens, the Um, every time that happens, the political power of the fossil fuel political power of the fossil fuel political power of the fossil fuel industry incrementally decreases. industry incrementally decreases. industry incrementally decreases. And we're going to come at some point to And we're going to come at some point to And we're going to come at some point to a place where their political power is a place where their political power is a place where their political power is broken. And when that happens, we will broken. And when that happens, we will broken. And when that happens, we will finally in this country be able to have finally in this country be able to have finally in this country be able to have a more rational discussion of what our a more rational discussion of what our a more rational discussion of what our choices are and how we move forward. I choices are and how we move forward. I choices are and how we move forward. I kind of take that as our work at Third kind of take that as our work at Third kind of take that as our work at Third Act and my work and whatever elsewhere Act and my work and whatever elsewhere Act and my work and whatever elsewhere is to figure out how to do the things is to figure out how to do the things is to figure out how to do the things that break that political power because that break that political power because that break that political power because it has been the golden thread of it has been the golden thread of it has been the golden thread of obstruction all the way along. So that obstruction all the way along. So that obstruction all the way along. So that so that is still the way you see it that so that is still the way you see it that so that is still the way you see it that the the core obstruction here is the the the core obstruction here is the the the core obstruction here is the political power of the fossil fuel

political power of the fossil fuel political power of the fossil fuel industry not the preferences or industry not the preferences or industry not the preferences or resistance of of just to finish the the resistance of of just to finish the the resistance of of just to finish the the argument argument argument >> of voters who may not want to do some of >> of voters who may not want to do some of >> of voters who may not want to do some of the things who don't want to replace the things who don't want to replace the things who don't want to replace their furnace who don't want to replace their furnace who don't want to replace their furnace who don't want to replace their car who don't want to be told you their car who don't want to be told you their car who don't want to be told you know that that the way they're doing know that that the way they're doing know that that the way they're doing energy has to change energy has to change energy has to change >> there's always going to be some of that >> there's always going to be some of that >> there's always going to be some of that but I don't think those are that hard. but I don't think those are that hard. but I don't think those are that hard. If you get people I because I've done If you get people I because I've done If you get people I because I've done this a hundred times. If I put my this a hundred times. If I put my this a hundred times. If I put my neighbors in an EV and let them drive neighbors in an EV and let them drive neighbors in an EV and let them drive it, they're like, "This is great." You it, they're like, "This is great." You it, they're like, "This is great." You know, if we have people over for dinner know, if we have people over for dinner know, if we have people over for dinner and show them the induction cooktop, and show them the induction cooktop, and show them the induction cooktop, which you can buy for 60 bucks online, which you can buy for 60 bucks online, which you can buy for 60 bucks online, you know, and which boils water faster you know, and which boils water faster you know, and which boils water faster than you can boil it on a gas stove. than you can boil it on a gas stove. than you can boil it on a gas stove. Very few people are like, I must have an Very few people are like, I must have an Very few people are like, I must have an open flame in my kitchen to make me open flame in my kitchen to make me open flame in my kitchen to make me happy. happy. happy. >> China's come up a lot in this >> China's come up a lot in this >> China's come up a lot in this conversation and there's a tension in conversation and there's a tension in conversation and there's a tension in the way I think the left sees and treats the way I think the left sees and treats the way I think the left sees and treats China particularly on renewable energy.

China particularly on renewable energy. China particularly on renewable energy. So you can imagine a world where what So you can imagine a world where what So you can imagine a world where what China has done is hailed as heroic and China has done is hailed as heroic and China has done is hailed as heroic and we embrace it. We import their cheap we embrace it. We import their cheap we embrace it. We import their cheap electric vehicles which work really well electric vehicles which work really well electric vehicles which work really well and are much cheaper than what we make. and are much cheaper than what we make. and are much cheaper than what we make. We embrace how rapidly they have pushed We embrace how rapidly they have pushed We embrace how rapidly they have pushed the world forward on solar energy and the world forward on solar energy and the world forward on solar energy and and other forms of uh green energy and other forms of uh green energy and other forms of uh green energy infrastructure and and and we adopt it. infrastructure and and and we adopt it. infrastructure and and and we adopt it. What we've actually done and this goes What we've actually done and this goes What we've actually done and this goes back to the Biden administration not back to the Biden administration not back to the Biden administration not just Trump is tariff a lot of that just Trump is tariff a lot of that just Trump is tariff a lot of that particularly the EVs. We've treated particularly the EVs. We've treated particularly the EVs. We've treated China's uh China's uh China's uh dominance or primacy over the solar dominance or primacy over the solar dominance or primacy over the solar supply chain as a threat that needs to supply chain as a threat that needs to supply chain as a threat that needs to be combed, not as a kind of global be combed, not as a kind of global be combed, not as a kind of global cooperation to be embraced. cooperation to be embraced. cooperation to be embraced. Is that a mistake? Is that a mistake? Is that a mistake? Look, I mean, it's understandable, for Look, I mean, it's understandable, for Look, I mean, it's understandable, for instance, why we tariff EVs from China instance, why we tariff EVs from China instance, why we tariff EVs from China because if we let them in right now, because if we let them in right now, because if we let them in right now, our car industry would be over our car industry would be over our car industry would be over overnight. You can get a great Chinese overnight. You can get a great Chinese overnight. You can get a great Chinese EV for 20 grand now. You know, as good EV for 20 grand now. You know, as good EV for 20 grand now. You know, as good as any car you've ever seen.

as any car you've ever seen. as any car you've ever seen. So, it made sense to erect a tariff wall So, it made sense to erect a tariff wall So, it made sense to erect a tariff wall to try and preserve our auto industry. to try and preserve our auto industry. to try and preserve our auto industry. What makes no sense is to erect the What makes no sense is to erect the What makes no sense is to erect the tariff wall and then behind it keep tariff wall and then behind it keep tariff wall and then behind it keep everything the same. The only rational everything the same. The only rational everything the same. The only rational reason for building the wall of tariffs reason for building the wall of tariffs reason for building the wall of tariffs would be to spend the next 3 years would be to spend the next 3 years would be to spend the next 3 years busily incentivizing and building an busily incentivizing and building an busily incentivizing and building an American EV industry that can compete. American EV industry that can compete. American EV industry that can compete. And there's no reason that it can't. I And there's no reason that it can't. I And there's no reason that it can't. I mean, in fact, these cars are actually mean, in fact, these cars are actually mean, in fact, these cars are actually relatively easy to figure out how to relatively easy to figure out how to relatively easy to figure out how to build because they have so few moving build because they have so few moving build because they have so few moving parts. Detroit's capable of this, but parts. Detroit's capable of this, but parts. Detroit's capable of this, but we're just we're just we're just >> losing a lot of money trying it right >> losing a lot of money trying it right >> losing a lot of money trying it right now. now. now. >> They lost a lot of money because we >> They lost a lot of money because we >> They lost a lot of money because we changed policy. There's no uh uh there's changed policy. There's no uh uh there's changed policy. There's no uh uh there's no technological no technological no technological um barrier to us doing. It's not like um barrier to us doing. It's not like um barrier to us doing. It's not like the Chinese have some, you know, the Chinese have some, you know, the Chinese have some, you know, incredible technological insight that we incredible technological insight that we incredible technological insight that we haven't come up with. haven't come up with. haven't come up with. >> No, they have manufacturing ecosystems >> No, they have manufacturing ecosystems >> No, they have manufacturing ecosystems that we don't have.

that we don't have. that we don't have. >> That's right. They've done that hard >> That's right. They've done that hard >> That's right. They've done that hard work to get that done. But we are work to get that done. But we are work to get that done. But we are completely capable of doing that. You completely capable of doing that. You completely capable of doing that. You know, that was really what the IRA know, that was really what the IRA know, that was really what the IRA envisioned. I mean, the IRA, envisioned. I mean, the IRA, envisioned. I mean, the IRA, among other things, one of the worst among other things, one of the worst among other things, one of the worst named pieces of legislation in American named pieces of legislation in American named pieces of legislation in American history, was really, you could have history, was really, you could have history, was really, you could have called it the, you know, trying to catch called it the, you know, trying to catch called it the, you know, trying to catch up to China Finally Act, and that would up to China Finally Act, and that would up to China Finally Act, and that would have been a much clearer name for it. have been a much clearer name for it. have been a much clearer name for it. >> But that doesn't quite answer the the >> But that doesn't quite answer the the >> But that doesn't quite answer the the question behind it, which is what should question behind it, which is what should question behind it, which is what should the relationship, what should the the relationship, what should the the relationship, what should the orientation towards China be? Look, in orientation towards China be? Look, in orientation towards China be? Look, in in Washington right now, not just under in Washington right now, not just under in Washington right now, not just under Trump, but this is true for Democrats, Trump, but this is true for Democrats, Trump, but this is true for Democrats, there's been a a real rising there's been a a real rising there's been a a real rising >> uh level of antagonism towards China, a >> uh level of antagonism towards China, a >> uh level of antagonism towards China, a sense that we are locked in in a sense that we are locked in in a sense that we are locked in in a profound competition profound competition profound competition >> and such that >> and such that >> and such that advances that come from China are not advances that come from China are not advances that come from China are not celebrated. Each one is a new kind of celebrated. Each one is a new kind of celebrated. Each one is a new kind of threat. If they've got embedded solar threat. If they've got embedded solar threat. If they've got embedded solar panels, instead of that being a boon for panels, instead of that being a boon for panels, instead of that being a boon for the global, the global, the global, >> you know, environmental ecosystem, we >> you know, environmental ecosystem, we >> you know, environmental ecosystem, we treat that as a danger to American, you treat that as a danger to American, you treat that as a danger to American, you know, supply chain capacities. I think know, supply chain capacities. I think know, supply chain capacities. I think that's a huge mistake. You know, China that's a huge mistake. You know, China that's a huge mistake. You know, China has extraordinary capacity to build, has extraordinary capacity to build, has extraordinary capacity to build, say, solar panels. They're now shutting say, solar panels. They're now shutting say, solar panels. They're now shutting in some of that capacity to try and in some of that capacity to try and in some of that capacity to try and drive the price up a little bit because drive the price up a little bit because drive the price up a little bit because this stuff got so cheap. But instead, this stuff got so cheap. But instead, this stuff got so cheap. But instead, imagine a world where we just decide imagine a world where we just decide imagine a world where we just decide this is going to be a priority and we this is going to be a priority and we this is going to be a priority and we work together to globalize those work together to globalize those work together to globalize those factories, run them 24/7, turn out solar

factories, run them 24/7, turn out solar factories, run them 24/7, turn out solar panels by the gazillion, stack them on panels by the gazillion, stack them on panels by the gazillion, stack them on every railroad sighting and warf on every railroad sighting and warf on every railroad sighting and warf on planet earth and tell people to come planet earth and tell people to come planet earth and tell people to come take them away and make their own take them away and make their own take them away and make their own Pakistans. you know, uh you have begun Pakistans. you know, uh you have begun Pakistans. you know, uh you have begun to diffuse some of the potentially very to diffuse some of the potentially very to diffuse some of the potentially very dangerous competition between these two dangerous competition between these two dangerous competition between these two countries. You've done it in a project countries. You've done it in a project countries. You've done it in a project that helps the rest of the planet in that helps the rest of the planet in that helps the rest of the planet in ways that you can figure out how to ways that you can figure out how to ways that you can figure out how to share the credit for. Um uh share the credit for. Um uh share the credit for. Um uh and the option the the other option is and the option the the other option is and the option the the other option is to inhabit a an earth where we continue to inhabit a an earth where we continue to inhabit a an earth where we continue in competition with these guys uh even in competition with these guys uh even in competition with these guys uh even as uh the sea level rises around us. Um as uh the sea level rises around us. Um as uh the sea level rises around us. Um I think it's a no-brainer. I got to say I think it's a no-brainer. I got to say I think it's a no-brainer. I got to say >> there is both the question of having the >> there is both the question of having the >> there is both the question of having the technology and this question of technology and this question of technology and this question of deploying the technology. So even before deploying the technology. So even before deploying the technology. So even before Trump, you have this problem is Trump, you have this problem is Trump, you have this problem is beginning to affect the roll out of the beginning to affect the roll out of the beginning to affect the roll out of the IRA, which is one, it is hard to build a IRA, which is one, it is hard to build a IRA, which is one, it is hard to build a lot of what needs to be built. So solar, lot of what needs to be built. So solar, lot of what needs to be built. So solar, the solar roll out was going really, the solar roll out was going really, the solar roll out was going really, really well. Wind turbines were tougher.

really well. Wind turbines were tougher. really well. Wind turbines were tougher. Um, a lot of wind was undershooting the Um, a lot of wind was undershooting the Um, a lot of wind was undershooting the expectations of modelers. Uh, and the expectations of modelers. Uh, and the expectations of modelers. Uh, and the other big problem we're facing is other big problem we're facing is other big problem we're facing is transmission lines. So you build a big, transmission lines. So you build a big, transmission lines. So you build a big, you know, solar array or wind farm, you know, solar array or wind farm, you know, solar array or wind farm, >> you've got to get that energy from where >> you've got to get that energy from where >> you've got to get that energy from where it's generated to where it's going. it's generated to where it's going. it's generated to where it's going. >> We've seen the construction of >> We've seen the construction of >> We've seen the construction of interstate transmission lines fall. interstate transmission lines fall. interstate transmission lines fall. There was an effort uh this was like the There was an effort uh this was like the There was an effort uh this was like the big mansion compromised side car that big mansion compromised side car that big mansion compromised side car that progressives fought and and helped kill. progressives fought and and helped kill. progressives fought and and helped kill. that it had both like the acceptance of that it had both like the acceptance of that it had both like the acceptance of a large natural gas pipeline but also a large natural gas pipeline but also a large natural gas pipeline but also would have had pretty big reforms on how would have had pretty big reforms on how would have had pretty big reforms on how you site interstate transmission lines you site interstate transmission lines you site interstate transmission lines that didn't pass. And so the that didn't pass. And so the that didn't pass. And so the transmission lines problem has just kind transmission lines problem has just kind transmission lines problem has just kind of festered. of festered. of festered. We have the technology but we have to We have the technology but we have to We have the technology but we have to build and move it build and move it build and move it >> in a way that is less sexy than >> in a way that is less sexy than >> in a way that is less sexy than sometimes just thinking about the solar sometimes just thinking about the solar sometimes just thinking about the solar panels can be. panels can be. panels can be. >> What do we need to do there? So, >> What do we need to do there? So, >> What do we need to do there? So, a few things.

a few things. a few things. >> One, the Biden administration was deeply >> One, the Biden administration was deeply >> One, the Biden administration was deeply committed to building this stuff, and committed to building this stuff, and committed to building this stuff, and they were actually getting a lot of it they were actually getting a lot of it they were actually getting a lot of it done. They had in the White House a team done. They had in the White House a team done. They had in the White House a team of people who were shephering each one of people who were shephering each one of people who were shephering each one of these transmission projects through of these transmission projects through of these transmission projects through its various hoops and and that was its various hoops and and that was its various hoops and and that was important work. And it was sad that it's important work. And it was sad that it's important work. And it was sad that it's disappeared. disappeared. disappeared. Obviously, the Trump administration is Obviously, the Trump administration is Obviously, the Trump administration is not going to allow any of this. They've not going to allow any of this. They've not going to allow any of this. They've shut it down everywhere. But there are a shut it down everywhere. But there are a shut it down everywhere. But there are a few for the moment technological few for the moment technological few for the moment technological uh uh aids here. We've actually figured uh uh aids here. We've actually figured uh uh aids here. We've actually figured out how we can more or less double the out how we can more or less double the out how we can more or less double the flow of electricity across a lot of flow of electricity across a lot of flow of electricity across a lot of transmission lines just by changing the transmission lines just by changing the transmission lines just by changing the wire that hangs from those poles. And wire that hangs from those poles. And wire that hangs from those poles. And that presents very few permitting that presents very few permitting that presents very few permitting problems. And it's beginning to happen problems. And it's beginning to happen problems. And it's beginning to happen in lots of places. It's also true that in lots of places. It's also true that in lots of places. It's also true that people are starting to learn how to use people are starting to learn how to use people are starting to learn how to use batteries to island energy as it were batteries to island energy as it were batteries to island energy as it were and perhaps reduce some of it. But and perhaps reduce some of it. But and perhaps reduce some of it. But people are also coming up with uh other people are also coming up with uh other people are also coming up with uh other workarounds that are stranger. Uh there workarounds that are stranger. Uh there workarounds that are stranger. Uh there are parts of the country now where um are parts of the country now where um are parts of the country now where um people are near big uh uh solar people are near big uh uh solar people are near big uh uh solar installations filling batteries on the installations filling batteries on the installations filling batteries on the backs of train cars and then rolling backs of train cars and then rolling backs of train cars and then rolling them uh to the nearest metro area, you them uh to the nearest metro area, you them uh to the nearest metro area, you know, uh to back and forth, back and know, uh to back and forth, back and know, uh to back and forth, back and forth to provide power. In the end,

forth to provide power. In the end, forth to provide power. In the end, there's going to need to be when we have there's going to need to be when we have there's going to need to be when we have some kind of sane politics back in some kind of sane politics back in some kind of sane politics back in Washington, there's going to need to be Washington, there's going to need to be Washington, there's going to need to be some kind of some kind of some kind of way forward here where we figure out how way forward here where we figure out how way forward here where we figure out how to do this. And it, you know, how that to do this. And it, you know, how that to do this. And it, you know, how that deal gets structured will depend on the, deal gets structured will depend on the, deal gets structured will depend on the, as it always does, the strength of the as it always does, the strength of the as it always does, the strength of the competing political forces. competing political forces. competing political forces. >> Well, I want to ask you what that deal >> Well, I want to ask you what that deal >> Well, I want to ask you what that deal should be. Yeah. I mean, one of the should be. Yeah. I mean, one of the should be. Yeah. I mean, one of the reason I'm bringing up transmission reason I'm bringing up transmission reason I'm bringing up transmission lines is that lines is that lines is that >> this all gets sort of bucketed under >> this all gets sort of bucketed under >> this all gets sort of bucketed under this term permitting reform. this term permitting reform. this term permitting reform. >> Permitting reform is, I think, generally >> Permitting reform is, I think, generally >> Permitting reform is, I think, generally understood as first like a right of understood as first like a right of understood as first like a right of center thing and then sometimes it's center thing and then sometimes it's center thing and then sometimes it's like a bipartisan deal making space. like a bipartisan deal making space. like a bipartisan deal making space. What I've actually not seen that much of What I've actually not seen that much of What I've actually not seen that much of is people in the climate movement and is people in the climate movement and is people in the climate movement and the broader left saying this is what I the broader left saying this is what I the broader left saying this is what I think it should look like. Like this is think it should look like. Like this is think it should look like. Like this is my priority for permitting reform. So in my priority for permitting reform. So in my priority for permitting reform. So in a rational world, rational country, a rational world, rational country, a rational world, rational country, you'd have a permitting reform or you'd have a permitting reform or you'd have a permitting reform or permitting system that prioritized clean permitting system that prioritized clean permitting system that prioritized clean energy over dirty energy. There's no energy over dirty energy. There's no energy over dirty energy. There's no good reason to be building gas pipelines good reason to be building gas pipelines good reason to be building gas pipelines anymore in this country. In the anymore in this country. In the anymore in this country. In the political world in which we live, political world in which we live, political world in which we live, there's probably some compromise that there's probably some compromise that there's probably some compromise that has to be reached there uh between the has to be reached there uh between the has to be reached there uh between the oil industry and sanity. So, in the oil industry and sanity. So, in the oil industry and sanity. So, in the meantime, there's a lot that we can do.

meantime, there's a lot that we can do. meantime, there's a lot that we can do. Third act is this movement that I I and Third act is this movement that I I and Third act is this movement that I I and a few others started a few years ago to a few others started a few years ago to a few others started a few years ago to organize old people like me, people over organize old people like me, people over organize old people like me, people over the age of 60 for action on climate and the age of 60 for action on climate and the age of 60 for action on climate and democracy. And I'll tell you what we've democracy. And I'll tell you what we've democracy. And I'll tell you what we've been doing for the last uh 10 months or been doing for the last uh 10 months or been doing for the last uh 10 months or so. One, getting states to make it much so. One, getting states to make it much so. One, getting states to make it much easier for people to put solar panels on easier for people to put solar panels on easier for people to put solar panels on their roofs. Americans pay three to five their roofs. Americans pay three to five their roofs. Americans pay three to five times as much as Europeans or times as much as Europeans or times as much as Europeans or Australians for a home solar system. Not Australians for a home solar system. Not Australians for a home solar system. Not because of the cost of the panels. Even because of the cost of the panels. Even because of the cost of the panels. Even with tariffs, it's dimminimous. It's with tariffs, it's dimminimous. It's with tariffs, it's dimminimous. It's because we have way too much bureaucracy because we have way too much bureaucracy because we have way too much bureaucracy here. Uh every jurisdiction, and there here. Uh every jurisdiction, and there here. Uh every jurisdiction, and there are 15,000 of them in the United States, are 15,000 of them in the United States, are 15,000 of them in the United States, every town, every county has its own every town, every county has its own every town, every county has its own zoning code, uh its own team of zoning code, uh its own team of zoning code, uh its own team of inspectors. They want you to, you know, inspectors. They want you to, you know, inspectors. They want you to, you know, they want to climb up on the roof and they want to climb up on the roof and they want to climb up on the roof and they want you to send them diagrams. And they want you to send them diagrams. And they want you to send them diagrams. And this is not how it works in the rest of this is not how it works in the rest of this is not how it works in the rest of the world. In the rest of the world, the world. In the rest of the world, the world. In the rest of the world, buying a solar panel is like buying a buying a solar panel is like buying a buying a solar panel is like buying a refrigerator. You call up a guy Monday, refrigerator. You call up a guy Monday, refrigerator. You call up a guy Monday, by Wednesday, he's up on your roof by Wednesday, he's up on your roof by Wednesday, he's up on your roof hammering away. By Friday, you're hammering away. By Friday, you're hammering away. By Friday, you're connected to the grid. That's why 40% of connected to the grid. That's why 40% of connected to the grid. That's why 40% of homes in Australia have solar panels.

homes in Australia have solar panels. homes in Australia have solar panels. That makes it very cheap if you go fast That makes it very cheap if you go fast That makes it very cheap if you go fast like that. like that. like that. There's an app for this. The National There's an app for this. The National There's an app for this. The National Renewable Energy Lab before it was Renewable Energy Lab before it was Renewable Energy Lab before it was trashed by the administration produced trashed by the administration produced trashed by the administration produced uh what's called uh Solar App Plus. It's uh what's called uh Solar App Plus. It's uh what's called uh Solar App Plus. It's an instant permitting app. You type in an instant permitting app. You type in an instant permitting app. You type in the address of the house you want to put the address of the house you want to put the address of the house you want to put it on, the kind of equipment that you're it on, the kind of equipment that you're it on, the kind of equipment that you're going to put up there. If the computer going to put up there. If the computer going to put up there. If the computer likes it, it prints you out a permit. likes it, it prints you out a permit. likes it, it prints you out a permit. You're up on the roof ready to go to You're up on the roof ready to go to You're up on the roof ready to go to work. We've managed to get that work. We've managed to get that work. We've managed to get that legislation going in a bunch of places. legislation going in a bunch of places. legislation going in a bunch of places. Now, even more striking, though less Now, even more striking, though less Now, even more striking, though less numerically significant is what Third numerically significant is what Third numerically significant is what Third Act and a few others managed to do over Act and a few others managed to do over Act and a few others managed to do over that 8 months with what we're calling that 8 months with what we're calling that 8 months with what we're calling balcony solar or plug-in solar. If balcony solar or plug-in solar. If balcony solar or plug-in solar. If you've been to Europe in the last 5 you've been to Europe in the last 5 you've been to Europe in the last 5 years, you have maybe not even noticed, years, you have maybe not even noticed, years, you have maybe not even noticed, but 5 million Europeans have paid a few but 5 million Europeans have paid a few but 5 million Europeans have paid a few hundred and come home with a solar panel hundred and come home with a solar panel hundred and come home with a solar panel designed not to go on the roof, but to designed not to go on the roof, but to designed not to go on the roof, but to be zip tied to the railing of your be zip tied to the railing of your be zip tied to the railing of your apartment balcony. On the back is a apartment balcony. On the back is a apartment balcony. On the back is a plug, which you plug into the wall. No plug, which you plug into the wall. No plug, which you plug into the wall. No electrician required. Produces often 20% electrician required. Produces often 20% electrician required. Produces often 20% of the power an apartment uses. So, not of the power an apartment uses. So, not of the power an apartment uses. So, not everything, but not nothing either. Um, everything, but not nothing either. Um, everything, but not nothing either. Um, this was illegal in the US pretty much this was illegal in the US pretty much this was illegal in the US pretty much everywhere everywhere everywhere until this spring. And in the last until this spring. And in the last until this spring. And in the last 12 weeks or 14 weeks, we've managed to

12 weeks or 14 weeks, we've managed to 12 weeks or 14 weeks, we've managed to get now 10 states where we've authorized get now 10 states where we've authorized get now 10 states where we've authorized this. It's not going to change this. It's not going to change this. It's not going to change everything, but by next year, there'll everything, but by next year, there'll everything, but by next year, there'll be a big market for cheap solar panels be a big market for cheap solar panels be a big market for cheap solar panels that you can apartment renters can use. that you can apartment renters can use. that you can apartment renters can use. I don't think of Europe as a low I don't think of Europe as a low I don't think of Europe as a low regulation, low bureaucracy. regulation, low bureaucracy. regulation, low bureaucracy. >> Those Germans very loosey goosey with >> Those Germans very loosey goosey with >> Those Germans very loosey goosey with the rules. the rules. the rules. >> So why has it been easier to do solar >> So why has it been easier to do solar >> So why has it been easier to do solar panels there than here? What's behind panels there than here? What's behind panels there than here? What's behind that? that? that? >> I I think that they've had less power >> I I think that they've had less power >> I I think that they've had less power from the fossil fuel industry and the from the fossil fuel industry and the from the fossil fuel industry and the utility lobby. You know, there have been utility lobby. You know, there have been utility lobby. You know, there have been a couple of times in the last uh uh few a couple of times in the last uh uh few a couple of times in the last uh uh few months when I've been listening to the months when I've been listening to the months when I've been listening to the your podcast and I've been loving what your podcast and I've been loving what your podcast and I've been loving what I'm hearing, but I've also been wanting I'm hearing, but I've also been wanting I'm hearing, but I've also been wanting to like shout at the you know, no, you to like shout at the you know, no, you to like shout at the you know, no, you did this great interview with this woman did this great interview with this woman did this great interview with this woman who was talking about sort of the who was talking about sort of the who was talking about sort of the misogyny of the mega movement and misogyny of the mega movement and misogyny of the mega movement and things, but it evolved into a really things, but it evolved into a really things, but it evolved into a really interesting discussion of aesthetics and interesting discussion of aesthetics and interesting discussion of aesthetics and political aesthetics and what they look political aesthetics and what they look political aesthetics and what they look like. One of the things that a kind of like. One of the things that a kind of like. One of the things that a kind of progressive political aesthetic is going progressive political aesthetic is going progressive political aesthetic is going to look like in the years ahead is not to look like in the years ahead is not to look like in the years ahead is not going to be like Corinthian columns going to be like Corinthian columns going to be like Corinthian columns versus Dorian. What? I can't even versus Dorian. What? I can't even versus Dorian. What? I can't even remember what the It's going to be solar remember what the It's going to be solar remember what the It's going to be solar punk. It's going to be You've seen the punk. It's going to be You've seen the punk. It's going to be You've seen the cover of my book.

cover of my book. cover of my book. >> Solar panels everywhere. Exactly. Right. >> Solar panels everywhere. Exactly. Right. >> Solar panels everywhere. Exactly. Right. It's going to be beautiful. There's also It's going to be beautiful. There's also It's going to be beautiful. There's also >> Okay, hold on. I want to hold here >> Okay, hold on. I want to hold here >> Okay, hold on. I want to hold here because this is something that I have a because this is something that I have a because this is something that I have a lot of uh interest in. I agree. lot of uh interest in. I agree. lot of uh interest in. I agree. Aesthetics central to politics. Aesthetics central to politics. Aesthetics central to politics. I also agree that the natural aesthetic I also agree that the natural aesthetic I also agree that the natural aesthetic for the left to move to is solar punk. for the left to move to is solar punk. for the left to move to is solar punk. And I can tell you that a huge number of And I can tell you that a huge number of And I can tell you that a huge number of people on the left people on the left people on the left had a viscerally negative reaction had a viscerally negative reaction had a viscerally negative reaction to the techno to the techno to the techno solar punk aesthetic of the book that solar punk aesthetic of the book that solar punk aesthetic of the book that they don't like seeing the satellites they don't like seeing the satellites they don't like seeing the satellites there. They think solar panels are ugly. there. They think solar panels are ugly. there. They think solar panels are ugly. One of the sort of natural spaces I One of the sort of natural spaces I One of the sort of natural spaces I think that the left could find both think that the left could find both think that the left could find both optimism and aesthetics and a kind of optimism and aesthetics and a kind of optimism and aesthetics and a kind of appreciation for human excellence and appreciation for human excellence and appreciation for human excellence and ambition and ingenuity is is around this ambition and ingenuity is is around this ambition and ingenuity is is around this kind of basket of um you this basket of kind of basket of um you this basket of kind of basket of um you this basket of futurism futurism futurism but I think people associate it with but I think people associate it with but I think people associate it with Elon Musk.

Elon Musk. Elon Musk. >> They associate it with Silicon Valley. >> They associate it with Silicon Valley. >> They associate it with Silicon Valley. >> So we need to start some other >> So we need to start some other >> So we need to start some other associations. associations. associations. >> There's a complicated relationship >> There's a complicated relationship >> There's a complicated relationship between the left and technology. So between the left and technology. So between the left and technology. So here's a here's some ways to start here's a here's some ways to start here's a here's some ways to start thinking about that. thinking about that. thinking about that. >> As I say, I've lived my life in rural >> As I say, I've lived my life in rural >> As I say, I've lived my life in rural America. Um, so one of the things that America. Um, so one of the things that America. Um, so one of the things that people sometimes say in my we don't want people sometimes say in my we don't want people sometimes say in my we don't want to use farmland for this. Okay. Um, so to use farmland for this. Okay. Um, so to use farmland for this. Okay. Um, so first you start just by kind of talking first you start just by kind of talking first you start just by kind of talking about what that means. Um, at the moment about what that means. Um, at the moment about what that means. Um, at the moment we use a huge amount of our farmland for we use a huge amount of our farmland for we use a huge amount of our farmland for energy. Corn is the biggest crop in energy. Corn is the biggest crop in energy. Corn is the biggest crop in America. We grow something like 95 America. We grow something like 95 America. We grow something like 95 million acres of it. 30 million of those million acres of it. 30 million of those million acres of it. 30 million of those more or less we use for ethanol, more or less we use for ethanol, more or less we use for ethanol, which is incredibly stupid. That 30 which is incredibly stupid. That 30 which is incredibly stupid. That 30 million acres produces something like 3% million acres produces something like 3% million acres produces something like 3% of all the energy that America uses. If of all the energy that America uses. If of all the energy that America uses. If we covered that same 30 million acres we covered that same 30 million acres we covered that same 30 million acres with solar panels, we'd produce pretty with solar panels, we'd produce pretty with solar panels, we'd produce pretty close to a 100% of the energy we close to a 100% of the energy we close to a 100% of the energy we currently use. currently use. currently use. Photosynthesis is a miracle, but it's Photosynthesis is a miracle, but it's Photosynthesis is a miracle, but it's not as efficient as the photovoltaic not as efficient as the photovoltaic not as efficient as the photovoltaic system. Um, you don't want to cover system. Um, you don't want to cover system. Um, you don't want to cover Indiana and Iowa stem to stern in solar Indiana and Iowa stem to stern in solar Indiana and Iowa stem to stern in solar panels. We've got lots of rooftops and panels. We've got lots of rooftops and panels. We've got lots of rooftops and parking lots, but we can use some of our parking lots, but we can use some of our parking lots, but we can use some of our land for this. No one's talking about land for this. No one's talking about land for this. No one's talking about more than a percent or two of our land.

more than a percent or two of our land. more than a percent or two of our land. And it's a very good crop to be growing. And it's a very good crop to be growing. And it's a very good crop to be growing. Clean electrons is way more useful than Clean electrons is way more useful than Clean electrons is way more useful than corn syrup. You know, we need more of corn syrup. You know, we need more of corn syrup. You know, we need more of it. And once you start this it. And once you start this it. And once you start this conversation, you can go on to say a conversation, you can go on to say a conversation, you can go on to say a couple of things. Uh, one of the virtues couple of things. Uh, one of the virtues couple of things. Uh, one of the virtues of this crop is you don't need to pour of this crop is you don't need to pour of this crop is you don't need to pour nitrogen and phosphorus on solar panels nitrogen and phosphorus on solar panels nitrogen and phosphorus on solar panels to make them work. The stuff that washes to make them work. The stuff that washes to make them work. The stuff that washes down the Mississippi River into the Gulf down the Mississippi River into the Gulf down the Mississippi River into the Gulf of Mexico and forms this giant uh anoxic of Mexico and forms this giant uh anoxic of Mexico and forms this giant uh anoxic dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Um, and dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Um, and dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Um, and you're left with half the field you're left with half the field you're left with half the field to do something else with. It's now to do something else with. It's now to do something else with. It's now traveling under the clunky name of traveling under the clunky name of traveling under the clunky name of agravaics. agravaics. agravaics. But this is actually the biggest new But this is actually the biggest new But this is actually the biggest new canvas for human ingenuity that we've canvas for human ingenuity that we've canvas for human ingenuity that we've had in a very long time on this planet. had in a very long time on this planet. had in a very long time on this planet. And people are doing fascinating things And people are doing fascinating things And people are doing fascinating things with it. Turns out that on an with it. Turns out that on an with it. Turns out that on an overheating world, there are a lot of overheating world, there are a lot of overheating world, there are a lot of things that would like some shade. One things that would like some shade. One things that would like some shade. One of those things are deserts where it's of those things are deserts where it's of those things are deserts where it's able to as you retain a little bit more able to as you retain a little bit more able to as you retain a little bit more moisture, it's possible for that crust moisture, it's possible for that crust moisture, it's possible for that crust and the biotic crust in the desert to and the biotic crust in the desert to and the biotic crust in the desert to reform and grow, holding sand in place.

reform and grow, holding sand in place. reform and grow, holding sand in place. This is the first place the Chinese are This is the first place the Chinese are This is the first place the Chinese are having some luck stopping the giant having some luck stopping the giant having some luck stopping the giant sandstorms that have plagued north sandstorms that have plagued north sandstorms that have plagued north northern China. But you can do lots of northern China. But you can do lots of northern China. But you can do lots of other things. In Vermont, where I live, other things. In Vermont, where I live, other things. In Vermont, where I live, one of the things that we've done with a one of the things that we've done with a one of the things that we've done with a lot of solar farms is interplant the lot of solar farms is interplant the lot of solar farms is interplant the rose with wild flowers and weeds that rose with wild flowers and weeds that rose with wild flowers and weeds that are attractive to native pollinators. are attractive to native pollinators. are attractive to native pollinators. And the numbers are astonishing. You And the numbers are astonishing. You And the numbers are astonishing. You find 10 times more of these insects than find 10 times more of these insects than find 10 times more of these insects than you did in the farm field that was there you did in the farm field that was there you did in the farm field that was there before. And what does that mean? It before. And what does that mean? It before. And what does that mean? It means that the surrounding farms and means that the surrounding farms and means that the surrounding farms and orchards see a big increase in orchards see a big increase in orchards see a big increase in pollination and in fruit set. uh human pollination and in fruit set. uh human pollination and in fruit set. uh human ingenuity can take these things and make ingenuity can take these things and make ingenuity can take these things and make them beautiful. That's when I talk about them beautiful. That's when I talk about them beautiful. That's when I talk about aesthetic. Uh we just need to start aesthetic. Uh we just need to start aesthetic. Uh we just need to start allowing people to picture this stuff in allowing people to picture this stuff in allowing people to picture this stuff in different ways. And part of that means, different ways. And part of that means, different ways. And part of that means, you know, allowing them to understand you know, allowing them to understand you know, allowing them to understand that it can be owned by communities, uh that it can be owned by communities, uh that it can be owned by communities, uh that it doesn't have to be owned by just that it doesn't have to be owned by just that it doesn't have to be owned by just utilities. We can have a real mix of utilities. We can have a real mix of utilities. We can have a real mix of this kind of stuff around the country.

this kind of stuff around the country. this kind of stuff around the country. One of the dimensions I find interesting One of the dimensions I find interesting One of the dimensions I find interesting in this conversation and in your work is in this conversation and in your work is in this conversation and in your work is this sort of news story that's emerging this sort of news story that's emerging this sort of news story that's emerging that yes like there is this that yes like there is this that yes like there is this terrible calamity building and currently terrible calamity building and currently terrible calamity building and currently unfolding and also there is this way to unfolding and also there is this way to unfolding and also there is this way to solve it that is moving through towards solve it that is moving through towards solve it that is moving through towards a future that is better not just because a future that is better not just because a future that is better not just because of the absence of catastrophe but of the absence of catastrophe but of the absence of catastrophe but because of the presence of new because of the presence of new because of the presence of new possibilities. possibilities. possibilities. >> Absolutely. Um, >> Absolutely. Um, >> Absolutely. Um, we don't know how prehistoric people we don't know how prehistoric people we don't know how prehistoric people thought about the world. Being thought about the world. Being thought about the world. Being prehistoric, they failed to write it prehistoric, they failed to write it prehistoric, they failed to write it down. But we know that every pile of down. But we know that every pile of down. But we know that every pile of rocks that they built, anything like rocks that they built, anything like rocks that they built, anything like Stonehenge, pointed to the equinox or Stonehenge, pointed to the equinox or Stonehenge, pointed to the equinox or the solstice. We know that the minute we the solstice. We know that the minute we the solstice. We know that the minute we started making myths on this planet uh started making myths on this planet uh started making myths on this planet uh culture after culture, the very first culture after culture, the very first culture after culture, the very first thing people had to explain was how does thing people had to explain was how does thing people had to explain was how does this thing rise over here in the this thing rise over here in the this thing rise over here in the morning, set over here in the evening morning, set over here in the evening morning, set over here in the evening and get back over here next morning. The and get back over here next morning. The and get back over here next morning. The sun is the most charismatic object in sun is the most charismatic object in sun is the most charismatic object in our corner of the universe.

our corner of the universe. our corner of the universe. >> The Bible, let there be light comes >> The Bible, let there be light comes >> The Bible, let there be light comes first. first. first. >> Exactly. Right. Actually, that's a good >> Exactly. Right. Actually, that's a good >> Exactly. Right. Actually, that's a good place to go with this story. I was in place to go with this story. I was in place to go with this story. I was in Rome last September. The new pope Rome last September. The new pope Rome last September. The new pope summoned over a bunch of people for a um summoned over a bunch of people for a um summoned over a bunch of people for a um a kind of conference to mark the 10th a kind of conference to mark the 10th a kind of conference to mark the 10th anniversary of Francis's great anniversary of Francis's great anniversary of Francis's great encyclical on climate change, leado. encyclical on climate change, leado. encyclical on climate change, leado. And when he gave his talk, he talked And when he gave his talk, he talked And when he gave his talk, he talked about how uh they were going to keep about how uh they were going to keep about how uh they were going to keep going with Francis's work on climate, a going with Francis's work on climate, a going with Francis's work on climate, a lot of good stuff about stewardship and lot of good stuff about stewardship and lot of good stuff about stewardship and creation. And almost in passing, he creation. And almost in passing, he creation. And almost in passing, he adds, uh, and you know, sometime this adds, uh, and you know, sometime this adds, uh, and you know, sometime this year, we're flipping the switch on our year, we're flipping the switch on our year, we're flipping the switch on our big new solar farm outside Rome, at big new solar farm outside Rome, at big new solar farm outside Rome, at which point apparently Vatican City will which point apparently Vatican City will which point apparently Vatican City will become the first fully solar powered become the first fully solar powered become the first fully solar powered nation on Earth. Um, so when I my turn nation on Earth. Um, so when I my turn nation on Earth. Um, so when I my turn to talk, I said, you know, uh, uh, uh, to talk, I said, you know, uh, uh, uh, to talk, I said, you know, uh, uh, uh, that was excellent, your holiness. Um that was excellent, your holiness. Um that was excellent, your holiness. Um and it provides us not only with a kind and it provides us not only with a kind and it provides us not only with a kind of technological hope. It's very nice.

of technological hope. It's very nice. of technological hope. It's very nice. But a a kind of mantra under which to But a a kind of mantra under which to But a a kind of mantra under which to operate henceforth uh you know let's operate henceforth uh you know let's operate henceforth uh you know let's just keep saying energy from heaven not just keep saying energy from heaven not just keep saying energy from heaven not from hell. I think this is an easy cell. from hell. I think this is an easy cell. from hell. I think this is an easy cell. Um, I I I think that people are going to Um, I I I think that people are going to Um, I I I think that people are going to get more and more and more intrigued get more and more and more intrigued get more and more and more intrigued with the possibility that we're going to with the possibility that we're going to with the possibility that we're going to be able to run the planet on new terms be able to run the planet on new terms be able to run the planet on new terms going forward. Um, um, going forward. Um, um, going forward. Um, um, >> I don't want to let you be quite this >> I don't want to let you be quite this >> I don't want to let you be quite this optimistic here. I don't I don't think I optimistic here. I don't I don't think I optimistic here. I don't I don't think I don't even think I don't think it's don't even think I don't think it's don't even think I don't think it's >> great pessimism, too. >> great pessimism, too. >> great pessimism, too. >> There you go. I don't think even you >> There you go. I don't think even you >> There you go. I don't think even you think it's as easy a cell as you're as think it's as easy a cell as you're as think it's as easy a cell as you're as you're describing there. you're describing there. you're describing there. So when you're out there doing your So when you're out there doing your So when you're out there doing your activism and you hear from someone who activism and you hear from someone who activism and you hear from someone who says, "Look, I believe in climate says, "Look, I believe in climate says, "Look, I believe in climate change. I don't like it. I don't want change. I don't like it. I don't want change. I don't like it. I don't want it. But energy is already too expensive it. But energy is already too expensive it. But energy is already too expensive and I've seen a lot of things fail and and I've seen a lot of things fail and and I've seen a lot of things fail and I'm worried Democrats are worried about I'm worried Democrats are worried about I'm worried Democrats are worried about the penguins and not about the penguins and not about the penguins and not about >> my life." What do you think? What do you >> my life." What do you think? What do you >> my life." What do you think? What do you say? What do you think a political say? What do you think a political say? What do you think a political leader should say?

leader should say? leader should say? >> Well, I mean, I'll tell you what I say, >> Well, I mean, I'll tell you what I say, >> Well, I mean, I'll tell you what I say, which is here. I'll show you my electric which is here. I'll show you my electric which is here. I'll show you my electric bills. Um, and you'll quickly figure out bills. Um, and you'll quickly figure out bills. Um, and you'll quickly figure out that I'm paying a lot less than you are that I'm paying a lot less than you are that I'm paying a lot less than you are for power cuz I've had solar panels on for power cuz I've had solar panels on for power cuz I've had solar panels on my roof for a long time. I I'll show you my roof for a long time. I I'll show you my roof for a long time. I I'll show you how my house or my car or whatever works how my house or my car or whatever works how my house or my car or whatever works and you'll see that there's nothing and you'll see that there's nothing and you'll see that there's nothing strange, foreign, weird about it. Um, I strange, foreign, weird about it. Um, I strange, foreign, weird about it. Um, I think that the politician who starts think that the politician who starts think that the politician who starts figuring out how to make that case will figuring out how to make that case will figuring out how to make that case will will find a kind of um will find a kind of um will find a kind of um motherload of political new political motherload of political new political motherload of political new political energy to uh uh uh mine because it moves energy to uh uh uh mine because it moves energy to uh uh uh mine because it moves us past some of the places where our us past some of the places where our us past some of the places where our politics has gotten so hung up and stuck politics has gotten so hung up and stuck politics has gotten so hung up and stuck in recent decades. The fact that in recent decades. The fact that in recent decades. The fact that Republicans find themselves hating clean Republicans find themselves hating clean Republicans find themselves hating clean energy is just a function of the fact energy is just a function of the fact energy is just a function of the fact that 20 years ago the oil industry that 20 years ago the oil industry that 20 years ago the oil industry decided to purchase the Republican decided to purchase the Republican decided to purchase the Republican party, you know, and did so successfully party, you know, and did so successfully party, you know, and did so successfully and that set up a whole series of and that set up a whole series of and that set up a whole series of things. But there's no intrinsic reason things. But there's no intrinsic reason things. But there's no intrinsic reason for that to happen. Just the opposite. I for that to happen. Just the opposite. I for that to happen. Just the opposite. I actually think that the next great actually think that the next great actually think that the next great leader in American politics is is going leader in American politics is is going leader in American politics is is going to be someone who starts figuring out to be someone who starts figuring out to be someone who starts figuring out how to appeal to our better angels. Not how to appeal to our better angels. Not how to appeal to our better angels. Not without an appeal to our own, you know, without an appeal to our own, you know, without an appeal to our own, you know, needs, uh, but in a different

needs, uh, but in a different needs, uh, but in a different register than we've heard before. That's register than we've heard before. That's register than we've heard before. That's what, for instance, interests me about what, for instance, interests me about what, for instance, interests me about the mayor of this city, Mr. Mumani. not the mayor of this city, Mr. Mumani. not the mayor of this city, Mr. Mumani. not so much his policies, but his ability to so much his policies, but his ability to so much his policies, but his ability to figure out how to start making people figure out how to start making people figure out how to start making people feel feel feel interested, excited going forward. So, I interested, excited going forward. So, I interested, excited going forward. So, I think that people will make the economic think that people will make the economic think that people will make the economic argument about where we can go and so argument about where we can go and so argument about where we can go and so on, but I also think that they're going on, but I also think that they're going on, but I also think that they're going to someone's going to start seizing on to someone's going to start seizing on to someone's going to start seizing on the idea the idea the idea that the planet now has a um for the that the planet now has a um for the that the planet now has a um for the first time in a long time a group first time in a long time a group first time in a long time a group project to work on. And that project is project to work on. And that project is project to work on. And that project is the rapid electrification of this planet the rapid electrification of this planet the rapid electrification of this planet which would have huge advantages for uh which would have huge advantages for uh which would have huge advantages for uh uh people around the world and for our uh people around the world and for our uh people around the world and for our climate future. And I don't think those climate future. And I don't think those climate future. And I don't think those things are impossible to imagine. I've things are impossible to imagine. I've things are impossible to imagine. I've always thought that of all the forces always thought that of all the forces always thought that of all the forces that animated the first Earth Day in that animated the first Earth Day in that animated the first Earth Day in 1970, which remains the biggest 1970, which remains the biggest 1970, which remains the biggest political demonstration in American political demonstration in American political demonstration in American history, 10% of the then population of history, 10% of the then population of history, 10% of the then population of the US in the streets.

the US in the streets. the US in the streets. The oil spill in Santa Barbara and the The oil spill in Santa Barbara and the The oil spill in Santa Barbara and the Kyhoga River and things catching on fire Kyhoga River and things catching on fire Kyhoga River and things catching on fire were key to that. But I think the most were key to that. But I think the most were key to that. But I think the most important thing were the pictures that important thing were the pictures that important thing were the pictures that had come back from Apollo 8 which showed had come back from Apollo 8 which showed had come back from Apollo 8 which showed our planet our planet our planet floating out there in space. floating out there in space. floating out there in space. I think someone's going to recapture I think someone's going to recapture I think someone's going to recapture some of that energy and some of that some of that energy and some of that some of that energy and some of that hope and do great things with it now hope and do great things with it now hope and do great things with it now that there's no longer any technological that there's no longer any technological that there's no longer any technological or economic obstacle in the way. or economic obstacle in the way. or economic obstacle in the way. >> It's a good place to end as a final >> It's a good place to end as a final >> It's a good place to end as a final question. What are a few books you question. What are a few books you question. What are a few books you recommend to the audience? recommend to the audience? recommend to the audience? >> There were two books this spring that I >> There were two books this spring that I >> There were two books this spring that I really enjoyed. Terry Tempest Williams, really enjoyed. Terry Tempest Williams, really enjoyed. Terry Tempest Williams, great nature essaist, a book called The great nature essaist, a book called The great nature essaist, a book called The Glorian, and Rebecca Soulnet, Glorian, and Rebecca Soulnet, Glorian, and Rebecca Soulnet, Poundforpound, maybe our best political Poundforpound, maybe our best political Poundforpound, maybe our best political essayist, and her book, The Beginning essayist, and her book, The Beginning essayist, and her book, The Beginning Comes After the End. But because, as Dr. Comes After the End. But because, as Dr. Comes After the End. But because, as Dr. Johnson, I think, once said, "The Johnson, I think, once said, "The Johnson, I think, once said, "The natural flight of the human mind is not natural flight of the human mind is not natural flight of the human mind is not from pleasure to pleasure, but from hope from pleasure to pleasure, but from hope from pleasure to pleasure, but from hope to hope." There are three books that are to hope." There are three books that are to hope." There are three books that are coming out this fall that I've gotten to coming out this fall that I've gotten to coming out this fall that I've gotten to read the galls of that I think are read the galls of that I think are read the galls of that I think are crucial. Leah Stokes, um, uh, maybe our crucial. Leah Stokes, um, uh, maybe our crucial. Leah Stokes, um, uh, maybe our leading expert on utilities, played a leading expert on utilities, played a leading expert on utilities, played a huge role in getting the IRA through, huge role in getting the IRA through, huge role in getting the IRA through, and she tells that story in a book and she tells that story in a book and she tells that story in a book called The Carbon Wave. Uh it's a great called The Carbon Wave. Uh it's a great called The Carbon Wave. Uh it's a great kind of insider political account and kind of insider political account and kind of insider political account and it's also a beautiful story because she it's also a beautiful story because she it's also a beautiful story because she was writing much of the IRA while she

was writing much of the IRA while she was writing much of the IRA while she was in the neonatal intensive care unit was in the neonatal intensive care unit was in the neonatal intensive care unit with her newborn twins. with her newborn twins. with her newborn twins. Amy Westervelt, tremendous uh freelance Amy Westervelt, tremendous uh freelance Amy Westervelt, tremendous uh freelance reporter on a lot of climate and energy reporter on a lot of climate and energy reporter on a lot of climate and energy issues and on larger things. a new book issues and on larger things. a new book issues and on larger things. a new book called Brought to You by How called Brought to You by How called Brought to You by How Corporations Have Warped the Truth that Corporations Have Warped the Truth that Corporations Have Warped the Truth that tells the story that we didn't really tells the story that we didn't really tells the story that we didn't really get in here to today, but just how the get in here to today, but just how the get in here to today, but just how the oil industry has spent the last 40 years oil industry has spent the last 40 years oil industry has spent the last 40 years doing its level best to destroy our doing its level best to destroy our doing its level best to destroy our information system. The first big lie information system. The first big lie information system. The first big lie and the one that really set the template and the one that really set the template and the one that really set the template for so many of the lies that mark our for so many of the lies that mark our for so many of the lies that mark our politics was the lie that physics wasn't politics was the lie that physics wasn't politics was the lie that physics wasn't real and we didn't have to pay attention real and we didn't have to pay attention real and we didn't have to pay attention to it. final book uh from Astra Taylor to it. final book uh from Astra Taylor to it. final book uh from Astra Taylor and Naomi Klene who you had on for a and Naomi Klene who you had on for a and Naomi Klene who you had on for a very memorable interview earlier this very memorable interview earlier this very memorable interview earlier this year and who I think is I think Naomi is year and who I think is I think Naomi is year and who I think is I think Naomi is the finest mind on the left in the the finest mind on the left in the the finest mind on the left in the world. Um they have together a new book world. Um they have together a new book world. Um they have together a new book called End Times Fascism and the Fight called End Times Fascism and the Fight called End Times Fascism and the Fight for a Living World. Uh that's coming out for a Living World. Uh that's coming out for a Living World. Uh that's coming out in the fall and that I think will be a in the fall and that I think will be a in the fall and that I think will be a kind of playbook for a lot of how kind of playbook for a lot of how kind of playbook for a lot of how progressives respond to the fix we find progressives respond to the fix we find progressives respond to the fix we find ourselves in.

ourselves in. ourselves in. >> Bill McKibben, thank you very much. >> Bill McKibben, thank you very much. >> Bill McKibben, thank you very much. >> Thank you, Ezra. Very much