I Answer Your Questions on Peter Thiel, Chris Rufo and the D.S.A. | The Ezra Klein Show

Welcome to one of our Ask Me Anything Welcome to one of our Ask Me Anything episodes. I am here joined by our episodes. I am here joined by our episodes. I am here joined by our fantastic executive producer Claire fantastic executive producer Claire fantastic executive producer Claire Gordon who has sharpened all of your Gordon who has sharpened all of your Gordon who has sharpened all of your questions into like darts she will throw questions into like darts she will throw questions into like darts she will throw at me for answer. [laughter] Um but we at me for answer. [laughter] Um but we at me for answer. [laughter] Um but we appreciate everything you all sent in. appreciate everything you all sent in. appreciate everything you all sent in. We have tried to look at the questions We have tried to look at the questions We have tried to look at the questions to see which ones were the most common, to see which ones were the most common, to see which ones were the most common, which seem to have the most interest. which seem to have the most interest. which seem to have the most interest. And we're going to get started. Claire, And we're going to get started. Claire, And we're going to get started. Claire, welcome to the other side of the show. welcome to the other side of the show. welcome to the other side of the show. >> Uh thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Uh thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Uh thank you. Thank you for having me. Um it's uncomfortable to be here. Um it's uncomfortable to be here. Um it's uncomfortable to be here. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um, we will be getting to the question Um, we will be getting to the question Um, we will be getting to the question on everyone's mind, which is the secret on everyone's mind, which is the secret on everyone's mind, which is the secret society you're a member of dialogue. society you're a member of dialogue. society you're a member of dialogue. >> When have when have I spoken to Peter >> When have when have I spoken to Peter >> When have when have I spoken to Peter Teal and what did we say Teal and what did we say Teal and what did we say >> exactly? [laughter] >> exactly? [laughter] >> exactly? [laughter] Um, but first, [snorts] this is from Um, but first, [snorts] this is from Um, but first, [snorts] this is from Scott K who's noticed that you seem to Scott K who's noticed that you seem to Scott K who's noticed that you seem to have a very intense relationship with have a very intense relationship with have a very intense relationship with electronic music as we all have. Quote, electronic music as we all have. Quote, electronic music as we all have. Quote, "Is musicianship something you've ever "Is musicianship something you've ever "Is musicianship something you've ever been drawn to? You are clearly not a been drawn to? You are clearly not a been drawn to? You are clearly not a passive listener. What does music do to passive listener. What does music do to passive listener. What does music do to your craft and why do you think you feel your craft and why do you think you feel your craft and why do you think you feel so at home in such a specific genre of so at home in such a specific genre of so at home in such a specific genre of music?

music? music? >> Um, musicianship is not something I've >> Um, musicianship is not something I've >> Um, musicianship is not something I've been heavily drawn to, but I did for the been heavily drawn to, but I did for the been heavily drawn to, but I did for the first time ever recently take a singing first time ever recently take a singing first time ever recently take a singing lesson lesson lesson >> really. >> really. >> really. >> And it was such a beautiful experience >> And it was such a beautiful experience >> And it was such a beautiful experience because I've never felt I can sing at because I've never felt I can sing at because I've never felt I can sing at all. And it's been the fact that I make all. And it's been the fact that I make all. And it's been the fact that I make my living apart now on my voice is my living apart now on my voice is my living apart now on my voice is surprising because it was always the way surprising because it was always the way surprising because it was always the way I speak and how I sound has always been I speak and how I sound has always been I speak and how I sound has always been like a point of real insecurity for me like a point of real insecurity for me like a point of real insecurity for me when I was growing up particularly. when I was growing up particularly. when I was growing up particularly. >> But like how you thought you sounded >> But like how you thought you sounded >> But like how you thought you sounded like what about it? like what about it? like what about it? >> A lot about it. Um without letting >> A lot about it. Um without letting >> A lot about it. Um without letting people into my private insecurities. Uh people into my private insecurities. Uh people into my private insecurities. Uh but um but it's really amazing to take a but um but it's really amazing to take a but um but it's really amazing to take a singing lesson and I'd always thought I singing lesson and I'd always thought I singing lesson and I'd always thought I could not ever find a like a tune or a could not ever find a like a tune or a could not ever find a like a tune or a note and it turned out I could I was note and it turned out I could I was note and it turned out I could I was just wrong about that about myself which just wrong about that about myself which just wrong about that about myself which was a cool thing to learn. Uh I played was a cool thing to learn. Uh I played was a cool thing to learn. Uh I played the flute a bit when I was young but you the flute a bit when I was young but you the flute a bit when I was young but you know as a kid. I tried to learn the know as a kid. I tried to learn the know as a kid. I tried to learn the guitar uh when I lived in DC as an adult guitar uh when I lived in DC as an adult guitar uh when I lived in DC as an adult and I loved doing that. I loved it. I and I loved doing that. I loved it. I and I loved doing that. I loved it. I should really pick it back up should really pick it back up should really pick it back up >> like pulling it out at parties. >> like pulling it out at parties. >> like pulling it out at parties. >> Playing crash into me for women. Um, no.

>> Playing crash into me for women. Um, no. >> Playing crash into me for women. Um, no. Uh, I did not play in front of other Uh, I did not play in front of other Uh, I did not play in front of other people, people, people, >> but the guy who's teaching me was just >> but the guy who's teaching me was just >> but the guy who's teaching me was just hung over too often to come and so it hung over too often to come and so it hung over too often to come and so it kind of like just filtered out. Uh, I'd kind of like just filtered out. Uh, I'd kind of like just filtered out. Uh, I'd like to learn something. I wouldn't try like to learn something. I wouldn't try like to learn something. I wouldn't try to learn how to do electronic music. Uh, to learn how to do electronic music. Uh, to learn how to do electronic music. Uh, I it is if this show in particular can I it is if this show in particular can I it is if this show in particular can colonize like everything I love. You colonize like everything I love. You colonize like everything I love. You know, I can read a great novel and then know, I can read a great novel and then know, I can read a great novel and then it's like, well, we should have the it's like, well, we should have the it's like, well, we should have the novelist on the show. And I think it's novelist on the show. And I think it's novelist on the show. And I think it's good to be an appreciator of some things good to be an appreciator of some things good to be an appreciator of some things and not try to make them another thing and not try to make them another thing and not try to make them another thing you are learning how to do. I have in my you are learning how to do. I have in my you are learning how to do. I have in my life like an excess of energy that is life like an excess of energy that is life like an excess of energy that is oriented towards productivity, oriented towards productivity, oriented towards productivity, accomplishment, doing accomplishment, doing accomplishment, doing being angry at myself for not doing being angry at myself for not doing being angry at myself for not doing things well enough or not doing enough things well enough or not doing enough things well enough or not doing enough of them. And so having spaces where I am of them. And so having spaces where I am of them. And so having spaces where I am an experiencer, not a creator, is an experiencer, not a creator, is an experiencer, not a creator, is important for me. important for me. important for me. I don't really know how to answer why I I don't really know how to answer why I I don't really know how to answer why I feel at home in it. Uh feel at home in it. Uh feel at home in it. Uh it just is the music. I mean, I've been it just is the music. I mean, I've been it just is the music. I mean, I've been listening to Oh my god, it's so good.

listening to Oh my god, it's so good. listening to Oh my god, it's so good. But it's so such an even hard album to But it's so such an even hard album to But it's so such an even hard album to tell people how to find. So Fortet, tell people how to find. So Fortet, tell people how to find. So Fortet, who's an amazing producer, who's an amazing producer, who's an amazing producer, has an alias has an alias has an alias that is entirely composed out of that is entirely composed out of that is entirely composed out of wingings. wingings. wingings. Like I I recognize how this sounds. So, Like I I recognize how this sounds. So, Like I I recognize how this sounds. So, he's got this new album out, but both he's got this new album out, but both he's got this new album out, but both the artist on the album and every song the artist on the album and every song the artist on the album and every song on the album cannot be pronounced or on the album cannot be pronounced or on the album cannot be pronounced or even searched, but you can find it on even searched, but you can find it on even searched, but you can find it on platforms by searching Foret, platforms by searching Foret, platforms by searching Foret, >> but it means 911 was an inside job. >> but it means 911 was an inside job. >> but it means 911 was an inside job. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> It means Ezra Klein and Peter Taylor and >> It means Ezra Klein and Peter Taylor and >> It means Ezra Klein and Peter Taylor and the Secret Society. Um, and I just love the Secret Society. Um, and I just love the Secret Society. Um, and I just love the album. I've actually had two the album. I've actually had two the album. I've actually had two experiences like this on the show. One experiences like this on the show. One experiences like this on the show. One with um Jeff Tweety of Wo, another with with um Jeff Tweety of Wo, another with with um Jeff Tweety of Wo, another with Brian Eno talking to them about Brian Eno talking to them about Brian Eno talking to them about individually a song they had done. um individually a song they had done. um individually a song they had done. um for Tweety. Impossible Germany I think for Tweety. Impossible Germany I think for Tweety. Impossible Germany I think it's called. it's called. it's called. Impossible [music] Impossible [music] Impossible [music] [singing] Germany [music] [music] [singing] >> and for you know come on with Fred again >> and for you know come on with Fred again [music] >> and learning that the incredibly like >> and learning that the incredibly like intense experience I had with that music intense experience I had with that music intense experience I had with that music was totally different than the way they was totally different than the way they was totally different than the way they understood that music. And I find that understood that music. And I find that understood that music. And I find that really beautiful. And so really beautiful. And so really beautiful. And so whatever my experience is with music I whatever my experience is with music I whatever my experience is with music I like here, it's just mine. It's not, I like here, it's just mine. It's not, I like here, it's just mine. It's not, I think, legible. Other people don't have think, legible. Other people don't have think, legible. Other people don't have the same one, but why these songs do the

the same one, but why these songs do the the same one, but why these songs do the this set of things to me, the ones that this set of things to me, the ones that this set of things to me, the ones that I like, which is not all of them. I I like, which is not all of them. I I like, which is not all of them. I mean, there's a lot of there's both a mean, there's a lot of there's both a mean, there's a lot of there's both a lot of bad electronic music, but also a lot of bad electronic music, but also a lot of bad electronic music, but also a lot of electronic music that just lot of electronic music that just lot of electronic music that just doesn't do it for me. Uh, and but I doesn't do it for me. Uh, and but I doesn't do it for me. Uh, and but I think it is a thing best left illeible think it is a thing best left illeible think it is a thing best left illeible even to the self. Like there's a lot of even to the self. Like there's a lot of even to the self. Like there's a lot of art that what you want to do is just art that what you want to do is just art that what you want to do is just allow yourself to feel differently and allow yourself to feel differently and allow yourself to feel differently and not not try to pin the different feeling not not try to pin the different feeling not not try to pin the different feeling like a butterfly to a board. But yeah, I like a butterfly to a board. But yeah, I like a butterfly to a board. But yeah, I I feel at home in this music because it I feel at home in this music because it I feel at home in this music because it makes me feel things I don't feel makes me feel things I don't feel makes me feel things I don't feel elsewhere. elsewhere. elsewhere. >> Happy? [laughter] >> Happy? [laughter] >> Happy? [laughter] >> No, often not. I don't actually go for >> No, often not. I don't actually go for >> No, often not. I don't actually go for that much music that primarily makes me that much music that primarily makes me that much music that primarily makes me feel happy. feel happy. feel happy. >> In some ways, I think I use the music to >> In some ways, I think I use the music to >> In some ways, I think I use the music to feel things I have more trouble feeling. feel things I have more trouble feeling. feel things I have more trouble feeling. >> A lot of the music I like is a little >> A lot of the music I like is a little >> A lot of the music I like is a little bit bit bit >> discordant and difficult for me. Um, you >> discordant and difficult for me. Um, you >> discordant and difficult for me. Um, you know, other people can experience it how know, other people can experience it how know, other people can experience it how they experience. they experience. they experience. >> I've noticed when you took out your >> I've noticed when you took out your >> I've noticed when you took out your headphones or I accidentally hear it headphones or I accidentally hear it headphones or I accidentally hear it blasting from your laptop, I'm like, blasting from your laptop, I'm like, blasting from your laptop, I'm like, that's a choice. That's a that's a that's a choice. That's a that's a that's a choice. That's a that's a [laughter] choice of vibe for your [laughter] choice of vibe for your [laughter] choice of vibe for your Tuesday afternoon.

Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday afternoon. And I think the music holding very And I think the music holding very And I think the music holding very contrasting emotions actually is contrasting emotions actually is contrasting emotions actually is important for me because the work I do important for me because the work I do important for me because the work I do often has to hold very contrasting often has to hold very contrasting often has to hold very contrasting emotions. There can be beauty and fear emotions. There can be beauty and fear emotions. There can be beauty and fear and anxiety and hope and all these and anxiety and hope and all these and anxiety and hope and all these things at the same time. And so a lot of things at the same time. And so a lot of things at the same time. And so a lot of the music I go for, I mean some of it I the music I go for, I mean some of it I the music I go for, I mean some of it I just use to calm down my nervous system. just use to calm down my nervous system. just use to calm down my nervous system. I love Oliver Arnold's work and most of I love Oliver Arnold's work and most of I love Oliver Arnold's work and most of it for me is very soothing. There's a it for me is very soothing. There's a it for me is very soothing. There's a lot of music I do listen to that's lot of music I do listen to that's lot of music I do listen to that's soothing. Um my wife is always like soothing. Um my wife is always like soothing. Um my wife is always like that's really sad, really like I don't that's really sad, really like I don't that's really sad, really like I don't find it sad. I find it like sometimes a find it sad. I find it like sometimes a find it sad. I find it like sometimes a little bit melancholy but in a way I little bit melancholy but in a way I little bit melancholy but in a way I enjoy and then oftentimes really really enjoy and then oftentimes really really enjoy and then oftentimes really really calming and really beautiful. calming and really beautiful. calming and really beautiful. [music] [music] [music] But then a lot of the music is actually But then a lot of the music is actually But then a lot of the music is actually helping me hold things that are hard to helping me hold things that are hard to helping me hold things that are hard to feel at the same time so that I can feel at the same time so that I can feel at the same time so that I can infuse the work I'm doing with the kind infuse the work I'm doing with the kind infuse the work I'm doing with the kind of contradictory emotions that it of contradictory emotions that it of contradictory emotions that it sometimes needs to have.

sometimes needs to have. sometimes needs to have. >> Whoa. [laughter] >> Whoa. [laughter] >> Whoa. [laughter] Um, let's talk about the the feedback to Um, let's talk about the the feedback to Um, let's talk about the the feedback to the Chris Rufo episode, which um of our the Chris Rufo episode, which um of our the Chris Rufo episode, which um of our recent episodes like got a lot got the recent episodes like got a lot got the recent episodes like got a lot got the most questions um the most comments. most questions um the most comments. most questions um the most comments. >> Bifrocated feedback. >> Bifrocated feedback. >> Bifrocated feedback. >> Bifrocated feedback. Um, so this >> Bifrocated feedback. Um, so this >> Bifrocated feedback. Um, so this question is from Jason and it requires a question is from Jason and it requires a question is from Jason and it requires a little bit of setup. I listened to your little bit of setup. I listened to your little bit of setup. I listened to your recent episode with Chris Rufo. Then out recent episode with Chris Rufo. Then out recent episode with Chris Rufo. Then out of curiosity, I went and listened to a of curiosity, I went and listened to a of curiosity, I went and listened to a few episodes of his podcast, Rufo and few episodes of his podcast, Rufo and few episodes of his podcast, Rufo and Lomez. In one of the episodes, Rufo Lomez. In one of the episodes, Rufo Lomez. In one of the episodes, Rufo reflected on his conversation with you. reflected on his conversation with you. reflected on his conversation with you. I found his interpretation of the I found his interpretation of the I found his interpretation of the conversation wildly different from mine. conversation wildly different from mine. conversation wildly different from mine. So, I'm going to play two clips here. So, I'm going to play two clips here. So, I'm going to play two clips here. Um, and so the first clip, this is from Um, and so the first clip, this is from Um, and so the first clip, this is from our episode with Chris Rufo. And, uh, our episode with Chris Rufo. And, uh, our episode with Chris Rufo. And, uh, you describe Tucker Carlson as a white you describe Tucker Carlson as a white you describe Tucker Carlson as a white nationalist. nationalist. nationalist. Rufa then asked you to define white Rufa then asked you to define white Rufa then asked you to define white nationalism and this is what you said.

nationalism and this is what you said. nationalism and this is what you said. >> In some versions Jews are included in >> In some versions Jews are included in >> In some versions Jews are included in that white race. that white race. that white race. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> In some versions they are not included >> In some versions they are not included >> In some versions they are not included in that white race. In some versions we in that white race. In some versions we in that white race. In some versions we are talking about something I would are talking about something I would are talking about something I would describe primarily as a kind of describe primarily as a kind of describe primarily as a kind of nationalism. Right. The you know if you nationalism. Right. The you know if you nationalism. Right. The you know if you have too much of a country not sharing a have too much of a country not sharing a have too much of a country not sharing a common heritage you lose solidarity. In common heritage you lose solidarity. In common heritage you lose solidarity. In some cases we're talking about something some cases we're talking about something some cases we're talking about something much darker than that. Right? There are much darker than that. Right? There are much darker than that. Right? There are people who just don't like the way their people who just don't like the way their people who just don't like the way their community is changing and there's the community is changing and there's the community is changing and there's the KKK, right? Everything exists on a KKK, right? Everything exists on a KKK, right? Everything exists on a spectrum. spectrum. spectrum. >> But but would you say someone who is >> But but would you say someone who is >> But but would you say someone who is like for example hesitant about rapid like for example hesitant about rapid like for example hesitant about rapid large scale demographic change is just a large scale demographic change is just a large scale demographic change is just a kind of 1% white nationalist? Yeah. kind of 1% white nationalist? Yeah. kind of 1% white nationalist? Yeah. Because that would be like the majority Because that would be like the majority Because that would be like the majority of the country. of the country. of the country. >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or unfair or even wrong to worry about unfair or even wrong to worry about unfair or even wrong to worry about large scale rapid demographic change. large scale rapid demographic change. large scale rapid demographic change. >> And then here's Rufo's response. A >> And then here's Rufo's response. A >> And then here's Rufo's response. A couple years ago, you would not hear a couple years ago, you would not hear a couple years ago, you would not hear a prominent New York Times voice saying prominent New York Times voice saying prominent New York Times voice saying that it is totally legitimate, that it is totally legitimate, that it is totally legitimate, reasonable, and understandable to be reasonable, and understandable to be reasonable, and understandable to be concerned about large-scale rapid concerned about large-scale rapid concerned about large-scale rapid demographic change. I mean, demographic change. I mean, demographic change. I mean, >> you know, that was a right-wing talking >> you know, that was a right-wing talking >> you know, that was a right-wing talking point for many years. And the left-wing point for many years. And the left-wing point for many years. And the left-wing uh criticism was that was the great uh criticism was that was the great uh criticism was that was the great replacement theory, that was white replacement theory, that was white replacement theory, that was white nationalism, that was KKK style uh white nationalism, that was KKK style uh white nationalism, that was KKK style uh white supremacy. And so, is this a concession?

supremacy. And so, is this a concession? supremacy. And so, is this a concession? Is this going to be the left's uh kind Is this going to be the left's uh kind Is this going to be the left's uh kind of moderate lefts or the establishment of moderate lefts or the establishment of moderate lefts or the establishment left's new position moving forward? left's new position moving forward? left's new position moving forward? >> I'll also add that that episode of Rufo >> I'll also add that that episode of Rufo >> I'll also add that that episode of Rufo and Lomez was called Ezra Klein admits and Lomez was called Ezra Klein admits and Lomez was called Ezra Klein admits the New York Times was wrong on woke and the New York Times was wrong on woke and the New York Times was wrong on woke and the first two chapters on on YouTube the first two chapters on on YouTube the first two chapters on on YouTube were called Ezra Klein's great were called Ezra Klein's great were called Ezra Klein's great replacement moment and what Ezra now replacement moment and what Ezra now replacement moment and what Ezra now admits was once branded white admits was once branded white admits was once branded white nationalism. nationalism. nationalism. So with all that setup, Jason's question So with all that setup, Jason's question So with all that setup, Jason's question is, "It seemed that Rufo and Lomez is, "It seemed that Rufo and Lomez is, "It seemed that Rufo and Lomez equated your statement with a full equated your statement with a full equated your statement with a full endorsement of the great replacement endorsement of the great replacement endorsement of the great replacement theory. To me, this is a ridiculous theory. To me, this is a ridiculous theory. To me, this is a ridiculous misinterpretation of your point. Uh, misinterpretation of your point. Uh, misinterpretation of your point. Uh, when you have guests with broad when you have guests with broad when you have guests with broad platforms like Rufo, do you engage with platforms like Rufo, do you engage with platforms like Rufo, do you engage with them after an interview? And if so, how them after an interview? And if so, how them after an interview? And if so, how at all do you respond if you feel that at all do you respond if you feel that at all do you respond if you feel that someone is misrepresenting your someone is misrepresenting your someone is misrepresenting your position?" position?" position?" >> I don't for the most part. Um, I'll say >> I don't for the most part. Um, I'll say >> I don't for the most part. Um, I'll say a couple things here. One is that a a couple things here. One is that a a couple things here. One is that a major thread of my interview with Chris major thread of my interview with Chris major thread of my interview with Chris Rufo is that Rufo is a propagandist. We Rufo is that Rufo is a propagandist. We Rufo is that Rufo is a propagandist. We begin with this discussion of agitrop begin with this discussion of agitrop begin with this discussion of agitrop and then a lot of the conversation is me and then a lot of the conversation is me and then a lot of the conversation is me unspooling with him the way he does that unspooling with him the way he does that unspooling with him the way he does that and the consequences I think it has and and the consequences I think it has and and the consequences I think it has and the way it often misrepresents and then the way it often misrepresents and then the way it often misrepresents and then um worsens reality and has worsened the um worsens reality and has worsened the um worsens reality and has worsened the political party that he's part of.

political party that he's part of. political party that he's part of. But I'm not then going to like sit here But I'm not then going to like sit here But I'm not then going to like sit here and be surprised that a person who is and be surprised that a person who is and be surprised that a person who is like a proud propagandist. Um maybe the like a proud propagandist. Um maybe the like a proud propagandist. Um maybe the way he responds to that interview is by way he responds to that interview is by way he responds to that interview is by focusing on the parts he thinks he can focusing on the parts he thinks he can focusing on the parts he thinks he can turn into propaganda. turn into propaganda. turn into propaganda. I I did find that particular take which I I did find that particular take which I I did find that particular take which I actually saw from other people too I actually saw from other people too I actually saw from other people too very surprising. I have for many many very surprising. I have for many many very surprising. I have for many many many years and in fact it's part of my many years and in fact it's part of my many years and in fact it's part of my first book why we're polarized first book why we're polarized first book why we're polarized not just believed but talked a lot about not just believed but talked a lot about not just believed but talked a lot about how how how the immigration issue gets sanitized as the immigration issue gets sanitized as the immigration issue gets sanitized as about economics but it is actually about about economics but it is actually about about economics but it is actually about people's discomfort with demographic people's discomfort with demographic people's discomfort with demographic change. I wrote a big piece for Vox change. I wrote a big piece for Vox change. I wrote a big piece for Vox called white threat in a browning called white threat in a browning called white threat in a browning America. I think I've been very America. I think I've been very America. I think I've been very attentive for a long time to the fact attentive for a long time to the fact attentive for a long time to the fact that it is very politically that it is very politically that it is very politically destabilizing destabilizing destabilizing for the nature of a place for who lives for the nature of a place for who lives for the nature of a place for who lives in it to change fairly rapidly. And it in it to change fairly rapidly. And it in it to change fairly rapidly. And it has changed on a kind of generational has changed on a kind of generational has changed on a kind of generational level fairly rapidly. So in the 1970s level fairly rapidly. So in the 1970s level fairly rapidly. So in the 1970s 4%ish 4.5% of America was foreign born.

4%ish 4.5% of America was foreign born. 4%ish 4.5% of America was foreign born. Now it's around 15%. So it's went from Now it's around 15%. So it's went from Now it's around 15%. So it's went from you know sort of a low to either it is you know sort of a low to either it is you know sort of a low to either it is or it is near a high. [gasps] or it is near a high. [gasps] or it is near a high. [gasps] I have written a lot over the years I have written a lot over the years I have written a lot over the years about how that is a major driver of what about how that is a major driver of what about how that is a major driver of what Donald Trump is. I do not believe and I Donald Trump is. I do not believe and I Donald Trump is. I do not believe and I just like I cannot say this more flatly. just like I cannot say this more flatly. just like I cannot say this more flatly. Um that it is a normal constant and Um that it is a normal constant and Um that it is a normal constant and legitimate dimension of politics in a legitimate dimension of politics in a legitimate dimension of politics in a nation for people to have views on who nation for people to have views on who nation for people to have views on who lives in their community and how it's lives in their community and how it's lives in their community and how it's changing. I think great replacement changing. I think great replacement changing. I think great replacement theory is a white nationalist theory. theory is a white nationalist theory. theory is a white nationalist theory. The thing that I'm critiquing Rufo for The thing that I'm critiquing Rufo for The thing that I'm critiquing Rufo for in that section is footsying with Tucker in that section is footsying with Tucker in that section is footsying with Tucker Carlson at the time when Tucker Carlson Carlson at the time when Tucker Carlson Carlson at the time when Tucker Carlson is offering all these theories and then is offering all these theories and then is offering all these theories and then later on being shocked that Tucker later on being shocked that Tucker later on being shocked that Tucker Carlson has gone as far as he has. I'm Carlson has gone as far as he has. I'm Carlson has gone as far as he has. I'm saying this was all happening and you saying this was all happening and you saying this was all happening and you seem perfectly happy with the trend that seem perfectly happy with the trend that seem perfectly happy with the trend that it was on and now you're like, "Oh my it was on and now you're like, "Oh my it was on and now you're like, "Oh my god, like how did we end up with this god, like how did we end up with this god, like how did we end up with this conspiratorial racialist right?" And I'm conspiratorial racialist right?" And I'm conspiratorial racialist right?" And I'm saying it was right there in front of saying it was right there in front of saying it was right there in front of you. To follow up on that, I disagreed you. To follow up on that, I disagreed you. To follow up on that, I disagreed with Jason in his question of saying with Jason in his question of saying with Jason in his question of saying that Rufo was suggesting that you were that Rufo was suggesting that you were that Rufo was suggesting that you were fully endorsing the great replacement fully endorsing the great replacement fully endorsing the great replacement theory. He's saying that what you said theory. He's saying that what you said theory. He's saying that what you said you believe is what people on the right you believe is what people on the right you believe is what people on the right like him have been saying for years and like him have been saying for years and like him have been saying for years and they have been branded white they have been branded white they have been branded white nationalists for it.

nationalists for it. nationalists for it. It's hard for me to know like which It's hard for me to know like which It's hard for me to know like which position Rufo is trying to ascribe to me position Rufo is trying to ascribe to me position Rufo is trying to ascribe to me or even to the broader left here. But I or even to the broader left here. But I or even to the broader left here. But I guess like the only thing I can say is I guess like the only thing I can say is I guess like the only thing I can say is I think you can have normal concerns and think you can have normal concerns and think you can have normal concerns and it's just a normal part of politics that it's just a normal part of politics that it's just a normal part of politics that people notice and have views on when people notice and have views on when people notice and have views on when their communities change. I think you their communities change. I think you their communities change. I think you can do that without it being understood can do that without it being understood can do that without it being understood as white nationalism. I think if you as white nationalism. I think if you as white nationalism. I think if you brand that white nationalism or any kind brand that white nationalism or any kind brand that white nationalism or any kind of um you know racialist view then you of um you know racialist view then you of um you know racialist view then you have basically taken a huge amount of have basically taken a huge amount of have basically taken a huge amount of contestation in every nation we know of contestation in every nation we know of contestation in every nation we know of and tried to make it you know and tried to make it you know and tried to make it you know politically unsayable. I have personally politically unsayable. I have personally politically unsayable. I have personally never done that and have never believed never done that and have never believed never done that and have never believed that's like a usable way to think about that's like a usable way to think about that's like a usable way to think about politics. Of course you can then take politics. Of course you can then take politics. Of course you can then take that and turn it into a white that and turn it into a white that and turn it into a white nationalist version. And the white nationalist version. And the white nationalist version. And the white nationalist's version is there are white nationalist's version is there are white nationalist's version is there are white people. They are the true builders and people. They are the true builders and people. They are the true builders and inheritors of our society. The people inheritors of our society. The people inheritors of our society. The people coming in are genetically or culturally coming in are genetically or culturally coming in are genetically or culturally inferior inferior inferior and that it is a threat to the and that it is a threat to the and that it is a threat to the fundamental fundamental fundamental success of our society to have it not success of our society to have it not success of our society to have it not dominated by a certain percentage of dominated by a certain percentage of dominated by a certain percentage of ethnically, you know, northern European ethnically, you know, northern European ethnically, you know, northern European or something um descendants. That to me or something um descendants. That to me or something um descendants. That to me is white nationalism. I think it is very is white nationalism. I think it is very is white nationalism. I think it is very important to be able to delineate these important to be able to delineate these important to be able to delineate these things. I think it's important for the things. I think it's important for the things. I think it's important for the left. I think it's important for the left. I think it's important for the left. I think it's important for the right. If the right can't see the right. If the right can't see the right. If the right can't see the difference that I'm talking about, then

difference that I'm talking about, then difference that I'm talking about, then of course it's not able to police white of course it's not able to police white of course it's not able to police white nationalism because it wants to say nationalism because it wants to say nationalism because it wants to say there's no difference in anything, which there's no difference in anything, which there's no difference in anything, which means you cannot like see the thing means you cannot like see the thing means you cannot like see the thing you're trying to look for. The point you're trying to look for. The point you're trying to look for. The point that you said about it's, you know, that you said about it's, you know, that you said about it's, you know, reasonable to be worried about large reasonable to be worried about large reasonable to be worried about large scale rapid demographic change. scale rapid demographic change. scale rapid demographic change. Why do you, and you've said that several Why do you, and you've said that several Why do you, and you've said that several times before in the past, going back times before in the past, going back times before in the past, going back years, why do you think Rufo years, why do you think Rufo years, why do you think Rufo expressed surprise at you saying it? expressed surprise at you saying it? expressed surprise at you saying it? >> I I mean, I don't want to speculate on >> I I mean, I don't want to speculate on >> I I mean, I don't want to speculate on why Rufo is pretending to be surprised why Rufo is pretending to be surprised why Rufo is pretending to be surprised >> about I think on that one he >> about I think on that one he >> about I think on that one he again, I don't want to interpret him for again, I don't want to interpret him for again, I don't want to interpret him for him. Um, I really try not to argue with him. Um, I really try not to argue with him. Um, I really try not to argue with guests after they've left the the room. guests after they've left the the room. guests after they've left the the room. Um, I actually don't even think my views Um, I actually don't even think my views Um, I actually don't even think my views on immigration are that different than on immigration are that different than on immigration are that different than they've ever been. they've ever been. they've ever been. The Democratic party has definitely The Democratic party has definitely The Democratic party has definitely moved on immigration. It shot really far moved on immigration. It shot really far moved on immigration. It shot really far left in 2020, you know, with Julian left in 2020, you know, with Julian left in 2020, you know, with Julian Castro pushing the primary field to Castro pushing the primary field to Castro pushing the primary field to raise their hands or or the, you know, raise their hands or or the, you know, raise their hands or or the, you know, the debate moderators pushing them to the debate moderators pushing them to the debate moderators pushing them to raise their hands around Julio Castro's raise their hands around Julio Castro's raise their hands around Julio Castro's argument that illegal immigration should argument that illegal immigration should argument that illegal immigration should be um decriminalized, that the movement be um decriminalized, that the movement be um decriminalized, that the movement across the border should be across the border should be across the border should be decriminalized. And I think even many of decriminalized. And I think even many of decriminalized. And I think even many of the people on that stage would agree the people on that stage would agree the people on that stage would agree with the way I am talking about with the way I am talking about with the way I am talking about immigration, but at that point they were immigration, but at that point they were immigration, but at that point they were not willing to stand up to parts of not willing to stand up to parts of not willing to stand up to parts of their party that were one very very their party that were one very very their party that were one very very appropriately angry at the cruelty Trump appropriately angry at the cruelty Trump appropriately angry at the cruelty Trump showed towards immigrants, showed towards immigrants, showed towards immigrants, but also were trying to make an argument

but also were trying to make an argument but also were trying to make an argument that pretty normal views on immigration that pretty normal views on immigration that pretty normal views on immigration that most Americans held were on some that most Americans held were on some that most Americans held were on some level racist. level racist. level racist. I just think that happened before, I just think that happened before, I just think that happened before, right? And I don't think it's about I right? And I don't think it's about I right? And I don't think it's about I don't think that the concession there don't think that the concession there don't think that the concession there actually had to do with whether or not actually had to do with whether or not actually had to do with whether or not it's legitimate to worry about or have it's legitimate to worry about or have it's legitimate to worry about or have feelings about change inside of feelings about change inside of feelings about change inside of community. I think the concession there community. I think the concession there community. I think the concession there from the left which in general was a from the left which in general was a from the left which in general was a mistake it was making in 2020 and we mistake it was making in 2020 and we mistake it was making in 2020 and we certainly did episodes on this like you certainly did episodes on this like you certainly did episodes on this like you know going into the next election is know going into the next election is know going into the next election is that order is very very important to that order is very very important to that order is very very important to people and if what they feel is that people and if what they feel is that people and if what they feel is that when you are in power the world is when you are in power the world is when you are in power the world is disordered disordered disordered that prices are out of control that all that prices are out of control that all that prices are out of control that all of a sudden there are migrants of a sudden there are migrants of a sudden there are migrants everywhere you know on the subways in everywhere you know on the subways in everywhere you know on the subways in New York selling candy and like putting New York selling candy and like putting New York selling candy and like putting aside how much immigration there is is aside how much immigration there is is aside how much immigration there is is it orderly? Is the border like it orderly? Is the border like it orderly? Is the border like controlled? controlled? controlled? >> So Jason in that question, I mean, he >> So Jason in that question, I mean, he >> So Jason in that question, I mean, he was he was defending you against um what was he was defending you against um what was he was defending you against um what he thought was Rufo uh sort of like he thought was Rufo uh sort of like he thought was Rufo uh sort of like twisting what you said. We did get some twisting what you said. We did get some twisting what you said. We did get some feedback that was critical of you and feedback that was critical of you and feedback that was critical of you and Rufo and specifically people feeling Rufo and specifically people feeling Rufo and specifically people feeling like you didn't push back enough. Uh like you didn't push back enough. Uh like you didn't push back enough. Uh this is Matthew W. How do you decide, this is Matthew W. How do you decide, this is Matthew W. How do you decide, especially in the moment, when to push especially in the moment, when to push especially in the moment, when to push back on a guest versus let a claim go?

back on a guest versus let a claim go? back on a guest versus let a claim go? >> I come into episodes typically with a >> I come into episodes typically with a >> I come into episodes typically with a broad structure I want to be able to to broad structure I want to be able to to broad structure I want to be able to to tease out. And I try to let people talk. tease out. And I try to let people talk. tease out. And I try to let people talk. I'm having people on so you can hear I'm having people on so you can hear I'm having people on so you can hear what they think and you can come to your what they think and you can come to your what they think and you can come to your own judgments. Again, I push back on own judgments. Again, I push back on own judgments. Again, I push back on people when I think it serves the people when I think it serves the people when I think it serves the episode. when I think you don't know episode. when I think you don't know episode. when I think you don't know what they think yet, when I think what what they think yet, when I think what what they think yet, when I think what they think is not clear, when I think they think is not clear, when I think they think is not clear, when I think what they think has not been tested, but what they think has not been tested, but what they think has not been tested, but if it begins to fail some set of that if it begins to fail some set of that if it begins to fail some set of that tests, right? And and sometimes I can't tests, right? And and sometimes I can't tests, right? And and sometimes I can't test it in the moment because I'm trying test it in the moment because I'm trying test it in the moment because I'm trying to go somewhere else and that's going to to go somewhere else and that's going to to go somewhere else and that's going to take us down a a path for 25 minutes and take us down a a path for 25 minutes and take us down a a path for 25 minutes and we don't have that 25 minutes. we don't have that 25 minutes. we don't have that 25 minutes. >> Yeah. I mean, the episode was already >> Yeah. I mean, the episode was already >> Yeah. I mean, the episode was already two hours. So I just two hours. So I just two hours. So I just >> and and I think and if people like uh >> and and I think and if people like uh >> and and I think and if people like uh didn't listen to it or didn't make it to didn't listen to it or didn't make it to didn't listen to it or didn't make it to the end, I would recommend making it to the end, I would recommend making it to the end, I would recommend making it to the end because it it's very revealing. the end because it it's very revealing. the end because it it's very revealing. >> We we were saying at the beginning we >> We we were saying at the beginning we >> We we were saying at the beginning we got very bifrocated feedback on Rufo and got very bifrocated feedback on Rufo and got very bifrocated feedback on Rufo and you know from my perspective there was you know from my perspective there was you know from my perspective there was feedback that like really saw like what feedback that like really saw like what feedback that like really saw like what the structure of that episode was and the structure of that episode was and the structure of that episode was and the way things were playing against each the way things were playing against each the way things were playing against each other and people who other and people who other and people who their interpretation of it was different their interpretation of it was different their interpretation of it was different from mine. But that's also I think okay from mine. But that's also I think okay from mine. But that's also I think okay like I try to keep the episodes from like I try to keep the episodes from like I try to keep the episodes from becoming so legible that there is not becoming so legible that there is not becoming so legible that there is not room for independent thought. I have a room for independent thought. I have a room for independent thought. I have a lot of faith and trust in the audience.

lot of faith and trust in the audience. lot of faith and trust in the audience. And And And even where I understand there's going to even where I understand there's going to even where I understand there's going to be like a contested interpretation of be like a contested interpretation of be like a contested interpretation of something. I'm trying to create something. I'm trying to create something. I'm trying to create something here where you can have something here where you can have something here where you can have contested interpretations of it because contested interpretations of it because contested interpretations of it because it's supposed to be a space for you to it's supposed to be a space for you to it's supposed to be a space for you to think in, not for me to tell you what to think in, not for me to tell you what to think in, not for me to tell you what to think. I write columns. I write books. I think. I write columns. I write books. I think. I write columns. I write books. I occasionally do like essays on the show. occasionally do like essays on the show. occasionally do like essays on the show. When I want to tell you what to think or When I want to tell you what to think or When I want to tell you what to think or try to persuade you of what I think, I try to persuade you of what I think, I try to persuade you of what I think, I do that. I don't want this show to be do that. I don't want this show to be do that. I don't want this show to be that. Like I think that there is a that. Like I think that there is a that. Like I think that there is a tremendous amount of very didactic tremendous amount of very didactic tremendous amount of very didactic work out there. And I think Twitter and work out there. And I think Twitter and work out there. And I think Twitter and social media in general has made it much social media in general has made it much social media in general has made it much worse where it's like people worse where it's like people worse where it's like people they've gotten used to every time they've gotten used to every time they've gotten used to every time something is bad or somebody coming and something is bad or somebody coming and something is bad or somebody coming and telling them and just to be clear what telling them and just to be clear what telling them and just to be clear what you just heard is bad and you should be you just heard is bad and you should be you just heard is bad and you should be a bit like I don't I don't think that a bit like I don't I don't think that a bit like I don't I don't think that makes people smarter richer. And also makes people smarter richer. And also makes people smarter richer. And also one thing I I try to leave room for is one thing I I try to leave room for is one thing I I try to leave room for is that people legitimately come to things that people legitimately come to things that people legitimately come to things with different values and different with different values and different with different values and different interpretations and they should be able interpretations and they should be able interpretations and they should be able to see different things in the same to see different things in the same to see different things in the same episode.

episode. episode. I think that episode I think that episode I think that episode is really good. And I think that if you is really good. And I think that if you is really good. And I think that if you follow it through its entire arc around follow it through its entire arc around follow it through its entire arc around corruption corruption corruption around what is turning the right into around what is turning the right into around what is turning the right into this racialist right that he seems this racialist right that he seems this racialist right that he seems concerned about on his own show. concerned about on his own show. concerned about on his own show. I think there is both like an argument I think there is both like an argument I think there is both like an argument being made there and a thing being being made there and a thing being being made there and a thing being revealed there that to me worked really revealed there that to me worked really revealed there that to me worked really well. well. well. But I'm not going to tell you if it But I'm not going to tell you if it But I'm not going to tell you if it worked for you. Right? If you don't like worked for you. Right? If you don't like worked for you. Right? If you don't like the episode, you don't like the episode. the episode, you don't like the episode. the episode, you don't like the episode. You know, Tyler Cowan has a line. I You know, Tyler Cowan has a line. I You know, Tyler Cowan has a line. I don't know if he still says it before don't know if he still says it before don't know if he still says it before his episodes, but he often says before his episodes, but he often says before his episodes, but he often says before them, "This is a conversation I want to them, "This is a conversation I want to them, "This is a conversation I want to have with this person, not necessarily have with this person, not necessarily have with this person, not necessarily the conversation you want me to have the conversation you want me to have the conversation you want me to have with this person." with this person." with this person." And I think there's a truth to that. Um, And I think there's a truth to that. Um, And I think there's a truth to that. Um, there are episodes that, from my there are episodes that, from my there are episodes that, from my perspective, go totally off the rails or perspective, go totally off the rails or perspective, go totally off the rails or they end up as something totally they end up as something totally they end up as something totally different than what I thought they were different than what I thought they were different than what I thought they were going to be. That's not the case for going to be. That's not the case for going to be. That's not the case for that one. that one. that one. So again, I don't want to break my own So again, I don't want to break my own So again, I don't want to break my own rules here and go like point by point rules here and go like point by point rules here and go like point by point and tell you what I think you should and tell you what I think you should and tell you what I think you should think of it, but I can tell you that think of it, but I can tell you that think of it, but I can tell you that if you're not a subscriber to the New if you're not a subscriber to the New if you're not a subscriber to the New York Times, we have some news for you.

York Times, we have some news for you. York Times, we have some news for you. You can now explore the Times for free You can now explore the Times for free You can now explore the Times for free without any payw walls at all during without any payw walls at all during without any payw walls at all during your first month in the New York Times your first month in the New York Times your first month in the New York Times app. app. app. >> Uh, this is from Kevin T. I am a >> Uh, this is from Kevin T. I am a >> Uh, this is from Kevin T. I am a listener going back well into the Vox listener going back well into the Vox listener going back well into the Vox days. I love your show because while you days. I love your show because while you days. I love your show because while you are definitely to the left of me on some are definitely to the left of me on some are definitely to the left of me on some things, I think you're a solid guy. You things, I think you're a solid guy. You things, I think you're a solid guy. You operate in good faith. You're not a operate in good faith. You're not a operate in good faith. You're not a bullshitter. I'm wondering if over the bullshitter. I'm wondering if over the bullshitter. I'm wondering if over the years you've come to see any of your years you've come to see any of your years you've come to see any of your more woke positions as mistaken. Eg. more woke positions as mistaken. Eg. more woke positions as mistaken. Eg. Your infamous Vox article from the Me Your infamous Vox article from the Me Your infamous Vox article from the Me Too era where you suggested that it Too era where you suggested that it Too era where you suggested that it might not be so ultimately bad if some might not be so ultimately bad if some might not be so ultimately bad if some men were falsely accused of things if it men were falsely accused of things if it men were falsely accused of things if it led to progress. led to progress. led to progress. Feel free to quibble with this Feel free to quibble with this Feel free to quibble with this interpretation if you like. I'm sure you interpretation if you like. I'm sure you interpretation if you like. I'm sure you will. Uh or your conflict with Sam will. Uh or your conflict with Sam will. Uh or your conflict with Sam Harris, who I am closer to. Harris, who I am closer to. Harris, who I am closer to. ideologically um in this space in ideologically um in this space in ideologically um in this space in particular, identitarianism, wokeness, particular, identitarianism, wokeness, particular, identitarianism, wokeness, or whatever you want to call it. Are or whatever you want to call it. Are or whatever you want to call it. Are there any positions you've changed your there any positions you've changed your there any positions you've changed your mind on in the last 5 to 10 years? mind on in the last 5 to 10 years? mind on in the last 5 to 10 years? >> I would quibble with that description. >> I would quibble with that description. >> I would quibble with that description. There's a that's a piece about There's a that's a piece about There's a that's a piece about affirmative consent rules in colleges. affirmative consent rules in colleges. affirmative consent rules in colleges. Um and I would probably quibble with Um and I would probably quibble with Um and I would probably quibble with that view of it. Like it's not that I that view of it. Like it's not that I that view of it. Like it's not that I think it's good for people to be falsely think it's good for people to be falsely think it's good for people to be falsely accused of things. I guess like to the accused of things. I guess like to the accused of things. I guess like to the broad question being asked here. I often broad question being asked here. I often broad question being asked here. I often see people ascribing a lot of movement see people ascribing a lot of movement see people ascribing a lot of movement to me on all this and I actually to me on all this and I actually to me on all this and I actually >> yeah this has become a thing that people >> yeah this has become a thing that people >> yeah this has become a thing that people are saying about you.

are saying about you. are saying about you. >> I get it. But I my positions to me >> I get it. But I my positions to me >> I get it. But I my positions to me haven't changed that much. I think haven't changed that much. I think haven't changed that much. I think probably what gets emphasized has a probably what gets emphasized has a probably what gets emphasized has a little bit. Um but here's what I would little bit. Um but here's what I would little bit. Um but here's what I would say. I think that if I could go back say. I think that if I could go back say. I think that if I could go back there's probably two things that I was there's probably two things that I was there's probably two things that I was less alert to than I am now. One is that less alert to than I am now. One is that less alert to than I am now. One is that an argument you would often hear people an argument you would often hear people an argument you would often hear people make and that I probably made somewhat make and that I probably made somewhat make and that I probably made somewhat had to do with well there's no first had to do with well there's no first had to do with well there's no first amendment right to amplification on amendment right to amplification on amendment right to amplification on Twitter or Facebook or something like Twitter or Facebook or something like Twitter or Facebook or something like that, right? That if it's not something that, right? That if it's not something that, right? That if it's not something that is affecting like the actual legal that is affecting like the actual legal that is affecting like the actual legal system or government policy, system or government policy, system or government policy, uh you don't need to worry about it all uh you don't need to worry about it all uh you don't need to worry about it all that much. like the mob yelling you at that much. like the mob yelling you at that much. like the mob yelling you at Twitter or being shadowbanned because Twitter or being shadowbanned because Twitter or being shadowbanned because you said something that like was like you said something that like was like you said something that like was like hate hate speech. hate hate speech. hate hate speech. >> And I think cultural power like that is >> And I think cultural power like that is >> And I think cultural power like that is I didn't think it was totally unmeaning I didn't think it was totally unmeaning I didn't think it was totally unmeaning at the time. I mean, one thing you'll at the time. I mean, one thing you'll at the time. I mean, one thing you'll see in my tenure box, we never fired see in my tenure box, we never fired see in my tenure box, we never fired anybody for speech. Never happened, anybody for speech. Never happened, anybody for speech. Never happened, right? I like I wrote pieces in that era right? I like I wrote pieces in that era right? I like I wrote pieces in that era about about about like the difference between, in my view, like the difference between, in my view, like the difference between, in my view, cancel culture, which I always thought cancel culture, which I always thought cancel culture, which I always thought was like a poorly defined thing, and was like a poorly defined thing, and was like a poorly defined thing, and cancel behavior, which I thought was cancel behavior, which I thought was cancel behavior, which I thought was very real, which is people acting in a very real, which is people acting in a very real, which is people acting in a way that was going to lead to people way that was going to lead to people way that was going to lead to people losing their jobs. Now, they only lost losing their jobs. Now, they only lost losing their jobs. Now, they only lost their jobs when it combined with power.

their jobs when it combined with power. their jobs when it combined with power. And something that I tried to be alert And something that I tried to be alert And something that I tried to be alert to then and I still believe now is that to then and I still believe now is that to then and I still believe now is that a lot of things where people were saying a lot of things where people were saying a lot of things where people were saying what they cared about was free speech. what they cared about was free speech. what they cared about was free speech. What they cared about was power and What they cared about was power and What they cared about was power and losing power. And I think the Trump losing power. And I think the Trump losing power. And I think the Trump administration has proven me 100% right administration has proven me 100% right administration has proven me 100% right on that. on that. on that. 100%. That Donald Trump and all these 100%. That Donald Trump and all these 100%. That Donald Trump and all these people came in saying they were going to people came in saying they were going to people came in saying they were going to restore free speech and they did nothing restore free speech and they did nothing restore free speech and they did nothing of the kind. In fact, they've used state of the kind. In fact, they've used state of the kind. In fact, they've used state power more aggressively than Democrats power more aggressively than Democrats power more aggressively than Democrats ever did to chill speech, to punish ever did to chill speech, to punish ever did to chill speech, to punish people for speech, to scare people, to people for speech, to scare people, to people for speech, to scare people, to deport people. So, one thing that I just deport people. So, one thing that I just deport people. So, one thing that I just got into a lot of fights about and it got into a lot of fights about and it got into a lot of fights about and it put me like in the way people categorize put me like in the way people categorize put me like in the way people categorize my opinions like very much on the woke my opinions like very much on the woke my opinions like very much on the woke side. So, I was like there is a big side. So, I was like there is a big side. So, I was like there is a big fight over power here fight over power here fight over power here and and and >> but and there's a real threat to free >> but and there's a real threat to free >> but and there's a real threat to free speech here. But I do think that the speech here. But I do think that the speech here. But I do think that the people who are arguing that um the way people who are arguing that um the way people who are arguing that um the way that power is being deployed on that power is being deployed on that power is being deployed on platforms and you know in spaces like platforms and you know in spaces like platforms and you know in spaces like colleges that it was fundamentally colleges that it was fundamentally colleges that it was fundamentally illiberal and that it wasn't going to be illiberal and that it wasn't going to be illiberal and that it wasn't going to be contained there. It actually was going contained there. It actually was going contained there. It actually was going to leak into society.

to leak into society. to leak into society. They had more of a point than I thought They had more of a point than I thought They had more of a point than I thought then. Right? This is a point John height then. Right? This is a point John height then. Right? This is a point John height made and and we had a debate about it made and and we had a debate about it made and and we had a debate about it back in the Vox days and you know back in the Vox days and you know back in the Vox days and you know there's all these debates about college there's all these debates about college there's all these debates about college campuses and and a lot of my viewers campuses and and a lot of my viewers campuses and and a lot of my viewers like who cares? like I just don't want like who cares? like I just don't want like who cares? like I just don't want to hear that much about what happens at to hear that much about what happens at to hear that much about what happens at Yale. Um and the view of height and some Yale. Um and the view of height and some Yale. Um and the view of height and some other people was it's not going to stay other people was it's not going to stay other people was it's not going to stay at Yale like you're training the next at Yale like you're training the next at Yale like you're training the next generation of you know staffers and generation of you know staffers and generation of you know staffers and leaders and like this is going to come leaders and like this is going to come leaders and like this is going to come out of there. I think one that was out of there. I think one that was out of there. I think one that was basically true, right? That the um basically true, right? That the um basically true, right? That the um spillover effect was very real and two spillover effect was very real and two spillover effect was very real and two that uh that it also the the application that uh that it also the the application that uh that it also the the application of cultural power of cultural power of cultural power caused such backlash that it arguably caused such backlash that it arguably caused such backlash that it arguably more than wiped out the gains. more than wiped out the gains. more than wiped out the gains. the number of people who I've seen who I the number of people who I've seen who I the number of people who I've seen who I think were truly radicalized by just think were truly radicalized by just think were truly radicalized by just stuff that happened to them on Twitter, stuff that happened to them on Twitter, stuff that happened to them on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on places on Facebook, on Instagram, on places on Facebook, on Instagram, on places like that. like that. like that. In part because I always looked at those In part because I always looked at those In part because I always looked at those places as kind of cesspools [laughter] places as kind of cesspools [laughter] places as kind of cesspools [laughter] to just be blunt. Um to just be blunt. Um to just be blunt. Um I think I was like just less concerned I think I was like just less concerned I think I was like just less concerned about what was happening there.

about what was happening there. about what was happening there. >> So but but I al I always want to say >> So but but I al I always want to say >> So but but I al I always want to say this because I think this other side of this because I think this other side of this because I think this other side of is important. is important. is important. The reason I was sympathetic to what The reason I was sympathetic to what The reason I was sympathetic to what gets called wokeness, gets called wokeness, gets called wokeness, I actually still believe all that. I I actually still believe all that. I I actually still believe all that. I believe systemic racism is very real. I believe systemic racism is very real. I believe systemic racism is very real. I believe that our society is believe that our society is believe that our society is fundamentally unequal in very very very fundamentally unequal in very very very fundamentally unequal in very very very deep ways. I believe that we often have deep ways. I believe that we often have deep ways. I believe that we often have very difficult trade-offs between who very difficult trade-offs between who very difficult trade-offs between who gets justice and that as those as the gets justice and that as those as the gets justice and that as those as the power moves, right? I mean the the sort power moves, right? I mean the the sort power moves, right? I mean the the sort of piece about affirmative consent was of piece about affirmative consent was of piece about affirmative consent was trying to grapple with something that I trying to grapple with something that I trying to grapple with something that I still find is very hard to grapple with still find is very hard to grapple with still find is very hard to grapple with which is the equilibrium that existed which is the equilibrium that existed which is the equilibrium that existed you know that people were trying to you know that people were trying to you know that people were trying to alter in affirmative consent laws wasn't alter in affirmative consent laws wasn't alter in affirmative consent laws wasn't an equilibrium where there were no an equilibrium where there were no an equilibrium where there were no harms. It was one where there was harms. It was one where there was harms. It was one where there was rampant sexual assault that went rampant sexual assault that went rampant sexual assault that went unpunished and many many many women I unpunished and many many many women I unpunished and many many many women I know have been sexually assaulted and know have been sexually assaulted and know have been sexually assaulted and traumatized by it and harmed by it in traumatized by it and harmed by it in traumatized by it and harmed by it in spaces where there was not really a spaces where there was not really a spaces where there was not really a recourse. Did affirmative consent laws recourse. Did affirmative consent laws recourse. Did affirmative consent laws find like a great equilibrium? They find like a great equilibrium? They find like a great equilibrium? They didn't. So I think you could say like didn't. So I think you could say like didn't. So I think you could say like it's a hard problem. But I don't want to it's a hard problem. But I don't want to it's a hard problem. But I don't want to just say no, this was all wrong. One of just say no, this was all wrong. One of just say no, this was all wrong. One of the the things happening when you begin the the things happening when you begin the the things happening when you begin to sort of unearth the way we have to sort of unearth the way we have to sort of unearth the way we have settled into unjust structures in settled into unjust structures in settled into unjust structures in society is you don't always know how to society is you don't always know how to society is you don't always know how to change those structures in a way that change those structures in a way that change those structures in a way that will work. And I think a lot of things will work. And I think a lot of things will work. And I think a lot of things failed. I think a lot of things failed.

failed. I think a lot of things failed. failed. I think a lot of things failed. But the things people were trying to But the things people were trying to But the things people were trying to change were very real. I mean the level change were very real. I mean the level change were very real. I mean the level of just overwhelming workplace and of just overwhelming workplace and of just overwhelming workplace and social harassment that you know social harassment that you know social harassment that you know primarily women primarily women primarily women faced and face right it's not gone was faced and face right it's not gone was faced and face right it's not gone was real I think racism remains a problem we real I think racism remains a problem we real I think racism remains a problem we don't really know how to deal with I don't really know how to deal with I don't really know how to deal with I think that I actually have like mostly think that I actually have like mostly think that I actually have like mostly [laughter] the same views on what it is [laughter] the same views on what it is [laughter] the same views on what it is we're trying to fix in society but I we're trying to fix in society but I we're trying to fix in society but I think I take more seriously the people think I take more seriously the people think I take more seriously the people who said that using illiberalism to who said that using illiberalism to who said that using illiberalism to create something more liberal even if create something more liberal even if create something more liberal even if the illiberalism is not coming from the the illiberalism is not coming from the the illiberalism is not coming from the state state state is you are you are imperiling is you are you are imperiling is you are you are imperiling more than you realize you're imperiling. more than you realize you're imperiling. more than you realize you're imperiling. I mean, I also think it's like an I mean, I also think it's like an I mean, I also think it's like an emphasis thing that in 2014, like as emphasis thing that in 2014, like as emphasis thing that in 2014, like as we're like like ratcheting up into this we're like like ratcheting up into this we're like like ratcheting up into this like big woke moment, but it's also a like big woke moment, but it's also a like big woke moment, but it's also a moment of like progressive tailwinds and moment of like progressive tailwinds and moment of like progressive tailwinds and all these like uh issues feel like so all these like uh issues feel like so all these like uh issues feel like so alive and that like on the cusp of alive and that like on the cusp of alive and that like on the cusp of change and things are happening and change and things are happening and change and things are happening and you're weighing in all the time on like you're weighing in all the time on like you're weighing in all the time on like talking about the finer points of these talking about the finer points of these talking about the finer points of these issues. The political moment right now issues. The political moment right now issues. The political moment right now is is not that.

is is not that. is is not that. >> Yeah. Although I guess maybe the one >> Yeah. Although I guess maybe the one >> Yeah. Although I guess maybe the one thing I would say is that as I thing I would say is that as I thing I would say is that as I understand my own work over time, I understand my own work over time, I understand my own work over time, I understand myself as trying to figure understand myself as trying to figure understand myself as trying to figure out how to make progress on things that out how to make progress on things that out how to make progress on things that have remained pretty consistent. And if have remained pretty consistent. And if have remained pretty consistent. And if an approach fails, and I think a lot of an approach fails, and I think a lot of an approach fails, and I think a lot of those approaches failed and they those approaches failed and they those approaches failed and they particularly failed politically, I think particularly failed politically, I think particularly failed politically, I think it'd be crazy not to try to ask, well, it'd be crazy not to try to ask, well, it'd be crazy not to try to ask, well, why did this fail and what do we learn why did this fail and what do we learn why did this fail and what do we learn from it? And the thing you maybe hear me from it? And the thing you maybe hear me from it? And the thing you maybe hear me saying a lot about how do Democrats win saying a lot about how do Democrats win saying a lot about how do Democrats win in Iowa and Ohio and Nebraska and South in Iowa and Ohio and Nebraska and South in Iowa and Ohio and Nebraska and South Dakota and North Dakota and Arkansas and Dakota and North Dakota and Arkansas and Dakota and North Dakota and Arkansas and these places that used to win and these places that used to win and these places that used to win and thinking okay like what kind of a tent thinking okay like what kind of a tent thinking okay like what kind of a tent do you need to do that? What kind of a do you need to do that? What kind of a do you need to do that? What kind of a party brand do you need to do that? To party brand do you need to do that? To party brand do you need to do that? To me I'm trying to make progress on the me I'm trying to make progress on the me I'm trying to make progress on the same issues. I think one of the very same issues. I think one of the very same issues. I think one of the very very bad habits people pick up learning very bad habits people pick up learning very bad habits people pick up learning their politics in online discourse, their politics in online discourse, their politics in online discourse, online algorithmically structured like online algorithmically structured like online algorithmically structured like discourse holes is they begin to equate discourse holes is they begin to equate discourse holes is they begin to equate political change with political position political change with political position political change with political position taking and that your commitment to taking and that your commitment to taking and that your commitment to something is defined by how stridently something is defined by how stridently something is defined by how stridently you express your opposition to the thing you express your opposition to the thing you express your opposition to the thing you don't like, not how effectively you you don't like, not how effectively you you don't like, not how effectively you build power to fix it. And I understood build power to fix it. And I understood build power to fix it. And I understood like again what we call wokeness as a an like again what we call wokeness as a an like again what we call wokeness as a an effort to build power to fix something.

effort to build power to fix something. effort to build power to fix something. And it went in directions that even at And it went in directions that even at And it went in directions that even at the time like I was not on board of but the time like I was not on board of but the time like I was not on board of but I think you can't look around without I think you can't look around without I think you can't look around without saying that you were trying to do saying that you were trying to do saying that you were trying to do persuasion and the persuasion failed and persuasion and the persuasion failed and persuasion and the persuasion failed and now things are quite a bit worse than now things are quite a bit worse than now things are quite a bit worse than they were even I think then. And so you they were even I think then. And so you they were even I think then. And so you have to ask okay like what failed and have to ask okay like what failed and have to ask okay like what failed and what have you learned. I think if you what have you learned. I think if you what have you learned. I think if you have a politics over an extended period have a politics over an extended period have a politics over an extended period of time that is not learning things of time that is not learning things of time that is not learning things about the world about the world about the world something is wrong with it. You should something is wrong with it. You should something is wrong with it. You should be changing your emphasis. You should be changing your emphasis. You should be changing your emphasis. You should but you should also be changing your but you should also be changing your but you should also be changing your approach. And I guess the only other approach. And I guess the only other approach. And I guess the only other thing I'll say and this is a very thing I'll say and this is a very thing I'll say and this is a very consistent theme for me back then too. I consistent theme for me back then too. I consistent theme for me back then too. I just think a lot of what went wrong then just think a lot of what went wrong then just think a lot of what went wrong then and what is going wrong now has to do and what is going wrong now has to do and what is going wrong now has to do with these fights taking place in with these fights taking place in with these fights taking place in fundamentally fundamentally fundamentally deranging spaces. Spaces that have only deranging spaces. Spaces that have only deranging spaces. Spaces that have only become more deranged after Elon Musk become more deranged after Elon Musk become more deranged after Elon Musk bought Twitter become more deranged as bought Twitter become more deranged as bought Twitter become more deranged as they've all become much more algorithmic they've all become much more algorithmic they've all become much more algorithmic and less focused on your friends and the and less focused on your friends and the and less focused on your friends and the people you follow. And I think if you go people you follow. And I think if you go people you follow. And I think if you go back to my work then, if you go to it back to my work then, if you go to it back to my work then, if you go to it now, I have an extremely clear now, I have an extremely clear now, I have an extremely clear throughine of just somebody who has been throughine of just somebody who has been throughine of just somebody who has been very very very concerned that if that very very very concerned that if that very very very concerned that if that attention is the fundamental attention is the fundamental attention is the fundamental capacity we bring to politics, what we capacity we bring to politics, what we capacity we bring to politics, what we pay attention to shapes what we see. It pay attention to shapes what we see. It pay attention to shapes what we see. It shapes how we act. It shapes what we shapes how we act. It shapes what we shapes how we act. It shapes what we believe about other people. And if the believe about other people. And if the believe about other people. And if the way we pay attention, like the space way we pay attention, like the space way we pay attention, like the space that mediates our attention deranges it, that mediates our attention deranges it, that mediates our attention deranges it, focuses it on the wrong things in the focuses it on the wrong things in the focuses it on the wrong things in the wrong ways, then our politics is not wrong ways, then our politics is not wrong ways, then our politics is not going to be good.

going to be good. going to be good. And the reason I think both there were And the reason I think both there were And the reason I think both there were pretty bad excesses in a political pretty bad excesses in a political pretty bad excesses in a political movement I fundamentally agreed with and movement I fundamentally agreed with and movement I fundamentally agreed with and now there are really bad excesses in a now there are really bad excesses in a now there are really bad excesses in a political movement I fundamentally political movement I fundamentally political movement I fundamentally disagree with. I think the fact that disagree with. I think the fact that disagree with. I think the fact that both are sort of were taking place both are sort of were taking place both are sort of were taking place primarily first and foremost on then primarily first and foremost on then primarily first and foremost on then Twitter now X is inseparable from what Twitter now X is inseparable from what Twitter now X is inseparable from what has gone wrong. has gone wrong. has gone wrong. >> Just so we don't end on a entirely just >> Just so we don't end on a entirely just >> Just so we don't end on a entirely just down note about how woke went. I went down note about how woke went. I went down note about how woke went. I went back and and read your yes means yes. back and and read your yes means yes. back and and read your yes means yes. This is your affirm of consent article This is your affirm of consent article This is your affirm of consent article in Vox. Yes means yes is a terrible law in Vox. Yes means yes is a terrible law in Vox. Yes means yes is a terrible law and I completely support it is the and I completely support it is the and I completely support it is the article. article. article. >> I thought there wasn't anything that >> I thought there wasn't anything that >> I thought there wasn't anything that jumped out of me but your what you said jumped out of me but your what you said jumped out of me but your what you said about false accusations. about false accusations. about false accusations. >> What did I have not read this piece? I >> What did I have not read this piece? I >> What did I have not read this piece? I didn't even know we were going to talk didn't even know we were going to talk didn't even know we were going to talk about that. So I've not read this piece about that. So I've not read this piece about that. So I've not read this piece like in many many many many years. like in many many many many years. like in many many many many years. >> Also I don't think affirmative consent >> Also I don't think affirmative consent >> Also I don't think affirmative consent law makes false accusations more likely law makes false accusations more likely law makes false accusations more likely or more likely to to to lead to guys or more likely to to to lead to guys or more likely to to to lead to guys being like railroaded. There was being like railroaded. There was being like railroaded. There was something that did jump out at me as something that did jump out at me as something that did jump out at me as feeling like actually quite radical in feeling like actually quite radical in feeling like actually quite radical in what you said in that article. what you said in that article. what you said in that article. >> Well, can you say what I said [laughter] >> Well, can you say what I said [laughter] >> Well, can you say what I said [laughter] because I would like to know what I because I would like to know what I because I would like to know what I said.

said. said. >> So, what you said is that which is the >> So, what you said is that which is the >> So, what you said is that which is the the thrust of your argument is for one the thrust of your argument is for one the thrust of your argument is for one in five women to report an attempted or in five women to report an attempted or in five women to report an attempted or completed sexual assault means that completed sexual assault means that completed sexual assault means that everyday sexual practices on college everyday sexual practices on college everyday sexual practices on college campuses need to be upended and men need campuses need to be upended and men need campuses need to be upended and men need to feel a cold spike of fear when they to feel a cold spike of fear when they to feel a cold spike of fear when they begin a sexual encounter. begin a sexual encounter. begin a sexual encounter. >> Yeah, things get warped. I definitely >> Yeah, things get warped. I definitely >> Yeah, things get warped. I definitely don't remember myself as writing that don't remember myself as writing that don't remember myself as writing that false accusations are not a big deal. I false accusations are not a big deal. I false accusations are not a big deal. I mean, that's what I remember people mean, that's what I remember people mean, that's what I remember people being mad about, that cold spike of fear being mad about, that cold spike of fear being mad about, that cold spike of fear line. And I'm not sure I think I phrase line. And I'm not sure I think I phrase line. And I'm not sure I think I phrase that a little bit more vividly than I that a little bit more vividly than I that a little bit more vividly than I would. And it's not that I want anybody would. And it's not that I want anybody would. And it's not that I want anybody to feel fear when beginning a to feel fear when beginning a to feel fear when beginning a sex. [laughter] sex. [laughter] sex. [laughter] Um, there has been a cultural shift to a Um, there has been a cultural shift to a Um, there has been a cultural shift to a lot of anxiety around consent. Um, I lot of anxiety around consent. Um, I lot of anxiety around consent. Um, I recently saw Obsession, the blockbuster recently saw Obsession, the blockbuster recently saw Obsession, the blockbuster horror movie by this Jenzie director horror movie by this Jenzie director horror movie by this Jenzie director that is all about, at least my that is all about, at least my that is all about, at least my interpretation, turning that anxiety interpretation, turning that anxiety interpretation, turning that anxiety into supernatural horror. And there's into supernatural horror. And there's into supernatural horror. And there's also very little data about how sexual also very little data about how sexual also very little data about how sexual assault on college campuses has like assault on college campuses has like assault on college campuses has like actually shifted in the years since. But actually shifted in the years since. But actually shifted in the years since. But there is one study of 10 universities there is one study of 10 universities there is one study of 10 universities like elite like Harvard, Yale that does like elite like Harvard, Yale that does like elite like Harvard, Yale that does show that self-reporting sexual assault show that self-reporting sexual assault show that self-reporting sexual assault has gone down like significantly. But has gone down like significantly. But has gone down like significantly. But like what you argued for here like it like what you argued for here like it like what you argued for here like it kind of happened and it maybe worked kind of happened and it maybe worked kind of happened and it maybe worked >> maybe. I mean I'm not sure the >> maybe. I mean I'm not sure the >> maybe. I mean I'm not sure the affirmative consent laws were a good affirmative consent laws were a good affirmative consent laws were a good idea. I don't I don't know.

idea. I don't I don't know. idea. I don't I don't know. >> I don't know what a how much difference >> I don't know what a how much difference >> I don't know what a how much difference they they they >> Yeah. I don't know how much difference >> Yeah. I don't know how much difference >> Yeah. I don't know how much difference they made. So I think like what you they made. So I think like what you they made. So I think like what you could say about this was that I'm not could say about this was that I'm not could say about this was that I'm not sure what to think about what colleges sure what to think about what colleges sure what to think about what colleges should do and I thought they were worth should do and I thought they were worth should do and I thought they were worth trying and you know amidst this debate I trying and you know amidst this debate I trying and you know amidst this debate I made an argument for it and that made an argument for it and that made an argument for it and that argument is very informed by things argument is very informed by things argument is very informed by things people near me had gone through to just people near me had gone through to just people near me had gone through to just be very blunt about it and I still be very blunt about it and I still be very blunt about it and I still believe that the difficult thing here is believe that the difficult thing here is believe that the difficult thing here is that that that I mean sex itself is like a I mean sex itself is like a I mean sex itself is like a a very complicated interaction between a very complicated interaction between a very complicated interaction between human beings and a very vulnerable and a human beings and a very vulnerable and a human beings and a very vulnerable and a very intimate one. very intimate one. very intimate one. I think what I'd say after writing that I think what I'd say after writing that I think what I'd say after writing that piece in the years that followed amidst piece in the years that followed amidst piece in the years that followed amidst me too and everything else is like it me too and everything else is like it me too and everything else is like it all became much more sort of widespread all became much more sort of widespread all became much more sort of widespread and seen is that I do think the way this and seen is that I do think the way this and seen is that I do think the way this got seen and treated really changed. I got seen and treated really changed. I got seen and treated really changed. I think a lot of those changes were for think a lot of those changes were for think a lot of those changes were for the better. I also a lot of stories the better. I also a lot of stories the better. I also a lot of stories where ambiguous interactions um you know where ambiguous interactions um you know where ambiguous interactions um you know got interpreted as like the worst form got interpreted as like the worst form got interpreted as like the worst form of interaction and I don't like you need of interaction and I don't like you need of interaction and I don't like you need a way to protect against that too. And a way to protect against that too. And a way to protect against that too. And like I'll just I don't have an answer to like I'll just I don't have an answer to like I'll just I don't have an answer to all this, right? I don't know how to fix all this, right? I don't know how to fix all this, right? I don't know how to fix the like constant reality of sexual the like constant reality of sexual the like constant reality of sexual assault and also the reality that um if assault and also the reality that um if assault and also the reality that um if you like yeah I don't know how to fix you like yeah I don't know how to fix you like yeah I don't know how to fix the mix of the constant reality of the mix of the constant reality of the mix of the constant reality of sexual assault and like the ambiguous sexual assault and like the ambiguous sexual assault and like the ambiguous way in which two people might understand way in which two people might understand way in which two people might understand the same thing happening. Uh I think the same thing happening. Uh I think the same thing happening. Uh I think it's really hard. This is a question it's really hard. This is a question it's really hard. This is a question from uh Javan S. Uh with the Democratic

from uh Javan S. Uh with the Democratic from uh Javan S. Uh with the Democratic Party now splitting into center Dems and Party now splitting into center Dems and Party now splitting into center Dems and DSA. Is DSA just now becoming hip to DSA. Is DSA just now becoming hip to DSA. Is DSA just now becoming hip to anti-establishment uh politics in a way anti-establishment uh politics in a way anti-establishment uh politics in a way that MAGA did a decade ago? Are both that MAGA did a decade ago? Are both that MAGA did a decade ago? Are both movements just different flavors of movements just different flavors of movements just different flavors of populism where populism is the real populism where populism is the real populism where populism is the real current of politics dressed up in current of politics dressed up in current of politics dressed up in different outfits? I I wouldn't focus different outfits? I I wouldn't focus different outfits? I I wouldn't focus this question on the DSA because a lot this question on the DSA because a lot this question on the DSA because a lot of the candidates we are talking about of the candidates we are talking about of the candidates we are talking about in this populist moment are not to my in this populist moment are not to my in this populist moment are not to my knowledge DSA candidates. Graham knowledge DSA candidates. Graham knowledge DSA candidates. Graham Platner's out of the race but he was not Platner's out of the race but he was not Platner's out of the race but he was not a DSA candidate. Abdul Elsa to my a DSA candidate. Abdul Elsa to my a DSA candidate. Abdul Elsa to my knowledge is not a DSA candidate. A lot knowledge is not a DSA candidate. A lot knowledge is not a DSA candidate. A lot I mean there are some populists running I mean there are some populists running I mean there are some populists running who are DSA affiliated and some who who are DSA affiliated and some who who are DSA affiliated and some who aren't. Populism classically is a aren't. Populism classically is a aren't. Populism classically is a political perspective that uh is more political perspective that uh is more political perspective that uh is more about seeing a small group of elites about seeing a small group of elites about seeing a small group of elites hoarding power and believing that in hoarding power and believing that in hoarding power and believing that in order to have a better society, a better order to have a better society, a better order to have a better society, a better politics, you need to break the power politics, you need to break the power politics, you need to break the power they hoard. And so you can have, you they hoard. And so you can have, you they hoard. And so you can have, you know, your right-wing variants, your know, your right-wing variants, your know, your right-wing variants, your leftwing variants. I think it's sort of leftwing variants. I think it's sort of leftwing variants. I think it's sort of fairly widely believed that the most fairly widely believed that the most fairly widely believed that the most electable form of candidate you can run electable form of candidate you can run electable form of candidate you can run right now is economically populist and right now is economically populist and right now is economically populist and culturally moderate. Right? That's sort culturally moderate. Right? That's sort culturally moderate. Right? That's sort of the Dan Osborne formula in Nebraska.

of the Dan Osborne formula in Nebraska. of the Dan Osborne formula in Nebraska. And Dan Osborne is a candidate who And Dan Osborne is a candidate who And Dan Osborne is a candidate who really did wildly overperform in a red really did wildly overperform in a red really did wildly overperform in a red straight. Now, he also ran as an straight. Now, he also ran as an straight. Now, he also ran as an independent, but that meant he wasn't independent, but that meant he wasn't independent, but that meant he wasn't dragged down by the Democratic party's dragged down by the Democratic party's dragged down by the Democratic party's baggage. baggage. baggage. >> Graham Platner wasn't culturally >> Graham Platner wasn't culturally >> Graham Platner wasn't culturally moderate. moderate. moderate. >> I'm not sure he was the most kind of >> I'm not sure he was the most kind of >> I'm not sure he was the most kind of electable form of candidate you could electable form of candidate you could electable form of candidate you could run. run. run. >> So, this is what I mean, right? I think >> So, this is what I mean, right? I think >> So, this is what I mean, right? I think the problem with seeing all this as the problem with seeing all this as the problem with seeing all this as populism is that it's more than that, populism is that it's more than that, populism is that it's more than that, too. I don't think populism necessarily too. I don't think populism necessarily too. I don't think populism necessarily has a lot to say about Israel Gaza. You has a lot to say about Israel Gaza. You has a lot to say about Israel Gaza. You can have, you know, populists who end up can have, you know, populists who end up can have, you know, populists who end up on both sides of that issue and in fact on both sides of that issue and in fact on both sides of that issue and in fact you do in current American politics. And you do in current American politics. And you do in current American politics. And I think at some deeper level, populism I think at some deeper level, populism I think at some deeper level, populism is about listening to whatever group you is about listening to whatever group you is about listening to whatever group you are saying it is that is the mass, are saying it is that is the mass, are saying it is that is the mass, right? Whatever group you believe right? Whatever group you believe right? Whatever group you believe represents like the real people. For the represents like the real people. For the represents like the real people. For the right, populism tends to be a more right, populism tends to be a more right, populism tends to be a more nativeorn phenomena, right? They're like nativeorn phenomena, right? They're like nativeorn phenomena, right? They're like the real Americans and then the kind of the real Americans and then the kind of the real Americans and then the kind of fake elites. On the left, it's often fake elites. On the left, it's often fake elites. On the left, it's often more economic. But a lot of these more economic. But a lot of these more economic. But a lot of these candidates have a bunch of other candidates have a bunch of other candidates have a bunch of other positions that are a kind of linked and positions that are a kind of linked and positions that are a kind of linked and more elite set of ideas, right? On more elite set of ideas, right? On more elite set of ideas, right? On climate, on other things that put them climate, on other things that put them climate, on other things that put them pretty out of step with working-class pretty out of step with working-class pretty out of step with working-class voters. And it's why when you look at voters. And it's why when you look at voters. And it's why when you look at who they went over, Aram Platner was not who they went over, Aram Platner was not who they went over, Aram Platner was not overperforming working-class voters.

overperforming working-class voters. overperforming working-class voters. Abdul sayed is not overperforming with Abdul sayed is not overperforming with Abdul sayed is not overperforming with nonol voters in Michigan. like his uh nonol voters in Michigan. like his uh nonol voters in Michigan. like his uh elector doesn't look like that. There's elector doesn't look like that. There's elector doesn't look like that. There's been a lot of people noting that the DSA been a lot of people noting that the DSA been a lot of people noting that the DSA sweet spot is downwardly mobile, highly sweet spot is downwardly mobile, highly sweet spot is downwardly mobile, highly educated voters. So, I think we're going educated voters. So, I think we're going educated voters. So, I think we're going to see a lot of people making the to see a lot of people making the to see a lot of people making the argument again like real populism has argument again like real populism has argument again like real populism has not been tried because what the DSA is not been tried because what the DSA is not been tried because what the DSA is is leftism and that's something is leftism and that's something is leftism and that's something different. different. different. Sarah V wrote in with the question, I'm Sarah V wrote in with the question, I'm Sarah V wrote in with the question, I'm a registered Democrat and I've been a registered Democrat and I've been a registered Democrat and I've been doing a deep dive into the DSA website doing a deep dive into the DSA website doing a deep dive into the DSA website and what democratic socialists believe. and what democratic socialists believe. and what democratic socialists believe. I consider myself a progressive but more I consider myself a progressive but more I consider myself a progressive but more Bernie Sanders type. What is your Bernie Sanders type. What is your Bernie Sanders type. What is your understanding of the clear disconnect understanding of the clear disconnect understanding of the clear disconnect between what is on that website, no more between what is on that website, no more between what is on that website, no more jails, defund police, open borders, and jails, defund police, open borders, and jails, defund police, open borders, and what Mumani and others actually do when what Mumani and others actually do when what Mumani and others actually do when they are in office? I've been really they are in office? I've been really they are in office? I've been really enjoying watching Mdani govern since he enjoying watching Mdani govern since he enjoying watching Mdani govern since he took office. It feels like a good path took office. It feels like a good path took office. It feels like a good path so far, but it definitely doesn't so far, but it definitely doesn't so far, but it definitely doesn't reflect the tenants of that organization reflect the tenants of that organization reflect the tenants of that organization of which he's a member. I find it hard of which he's a member. I find it hard of which he's a member. I find it hard to know how seriously to take the DSA to know how seriously to take the DSA to know how seriously to take the DSA website or platform uh without getting website or platform uh without getting website or platform uh without getting into like incredibly tedious detail that into like incredibly tedious detail that into like incredibly tedious detail that has become a a constant topic in our has become a a constant topic in our has become a a constant topic in our Slack trying to say who speaks for the Slack trying to say who speaks for the Slack trying to say who speaks for the DSA and who is speaking when you look at DSA and who is speaking when you look at DSA and who is speaking when you look at what the national DSA says or what a what the national DSA says or what a what the national DSA says or what a local chapter says. It's a very local chapter says. It's a very local chapter says. It's a very unusually structured organization.

unusually structured organization. unusually structured organization. I do think it is valuable to look at I do think it is valuable to look at I do think it is valuable to look at what somebody like Mandani does in what somebody like Mandani does in what somebody like Mandani does in power. Right. We we've had a number of power. Right. We we've had a number of power. Right. We we've had a number of um members of Congress who are DSA um members of Congress who are DSA um members of Congress who are DSA associated or you know people in state associated or you know people in state associated or you know people in state senates and assembly senates and assembly senates and assembly and when you're in power you are working and when you're in power you are working and when you're in power you are working coalitionally to pass legislation or coalitionally to pass legislation or coalitionally to pass legislation or executive orders or regulations whatever executive orders or regulations whatever executive orders or regulations whatever it might be through a system that does it might be through a system that does it might be through a system that does not have entire agreement with you. I not have entire agreement with you. I not have entire agreement with you. I don't know what Zoran Mani or anybody don't know what Zoran Mani or anybody don't know what Zoran Mani or anybody else would do if they had king-like else would do if they had king-like else would do if they had king-like power. But I would say Mdani in terms of power. But I would say Mdani in terms of power. But I would say Mdani in terms of if you knew nothing about what he has if you knew nothing about what he has if you knew nothing about what he has said or what he believes, if you just said or what he believes, if you just said or what he believes, if you just saw what he has done governing, saw what he has done governing, saw what he has done governing, this would not look very different if this would not look very different if this would not look very different if another liberal candidate in that another liberal candidate in that another liberal candidate in that primary had won. Yes, they have added a primary had won. Yes, they have added a primary had won. Yes, they have added a tax on uh pricey second homes and I tax on uh pricey second homes and I tax on uh pricey second homes and I think and I know he would like to add think and I know he would like to add think and I know he would like to add more taxes on on the rich than that. more taxes on on the rich than that. more taxes on on the rich than that. He's also being very very very careful He's also being very very very careful He's also being very very very careful and doing a lot of both private and and doing a lot of both private and and doing a lot of both private and semi-public outreach to people who run semi-public outreach to people who run semi-public outreach to people who run investment banks to the business elite investment banks to the business elite investment banks to the business elite of New York City because he actually of New York City because he actually of New York City because he actually does not want to like infuriate them and does not want to like infuriate them and does not want to like infuriate them and run them out of the city. If you begin run them out of the city. If you begin run them out of the city. If you begin to dry up the tax revenues, the rest of to dry up the tax revenues, the rest of to dry up the tax revenues, the rest of his agenda falls apart immediately. I his agenda falls apart immediately. I his agenda falls apart immediately. I don't see the MDI era as reflecting an don't see the MDI era as reflecting an don't see the MDI era as reflecting an incredibly sharp break from say Delasio.

incredibly sharp break from say Delasio. incredibly sharp break from say Delasio. And you can, I think, say that sometimes And you can, I think, say that sometimes And you can, I think, say that sometimes of Bernie Sanders, too. And that's not a of Bernie Sanders, too. And that's not a of Bernie Sanders, too. And that's not a hit on them. I think one of the valuable hit on them. I think one of the valuable hit on them. I think one of the valuable things about more leftist figures things about more leftist figures things about more leftist figures getting into powers of uh getting into getting into powers of uh getting into getting into powers of uh getting into offices where they have executive offices where they have executive offices where they have executive authority or legislative authority is authority or legislative authority is authority or legislative authority is you actually see the give and take you actually see the give and take you actually see the give and take between ideology and power. The one between ideology and power. The one between ideology and power. The one thing that I thing that I thing that I sometimes find frustrating is that sometimes find frustrating is that sometimes find frustrating is that people on the left don't recognize that people on the left don't recognize that people on the left don't recognize that that is happening everywhere else too. that is happening everywhere else too. that is happening everywhere else too. So liberals, you know, often want more So liberals, you know, often want more So liberals, you know, often want more ambitious and sweeping changes than they ambitious and sweeping changes than they ambitious and sweeping changes than they are able to get one in power too. But are able to get one in power too. But are able to get one in power too. But there's a tendency to look at what say there's a tendency to look at what say there's a tendency to look at what say an Obama is able to get done dealing an Obama is able to get done dealing an Obama is able to get done dealing with a Senate riven by the filibuster with a Senate riven by the filibuster with a Senate riven by the filibuster and say that's all Obamaism was or and say that's all Obamaism was or and say that's all Obamaism was or intended to be which it isn't. There is intended to be which it isn't. There is intended to be which it isn't. There is a lot that if Barack Obama were king he a lot that if Barack Obama were king he a lot that if Barack Obama were king he would have done that he was not able to would have done that he was not able to would have done that he was not able to do. And you know with M Donnie it's very do. And you know with M Donnie it's very do. And you know with M Donnie it's very similar with Bernie Sanders. We had similar with Bernie Sanders. We had similar with Bernie Sanders. We had Fasier, Bernie's former campaign manager Fasier, Bernie's former campaign manager Fasier, Bernie's former campaign manager on the show and he said on the show, on the show and he said on the show, on the show and he said on the show, look, we knew that if we got into power, look, we knew that if we got into power, look, we knew that if we got into power, we weren't going to be able to pass we weren't going to be able to pass we weren't going to be able to pass Medicare for all. There's a high degree Medicare for all. There's a high degree Medicare for all. There's a high degree of pragmatism there. So, while he's of pragmatism there. So, while he's of pragmatism there. So, while he's pushing, let's take Medicare for all.

pushing, let's take Medicare for all. pushing, let's take Medicare for all. And he gets into Congress and can we at And he gets into Congress and can we at And he gets into Congress and can we at least lower the age from 65 to 60? Can least lower the age from 65 to 60? Can least lower the age from 65 to 60? Can we talk about Medicare expansion so that we talk about Medicare expansion so that we talk about Medicare expansion so that it covers home care, dental, hearing, it covers home care, dental, hearing, it covers home care, dental, hearing, and vision even if you can't all move and vision even if you can't all move and vision even if you can't all move with me to Medicare for all? That with me to Medicare for all? That with me to Medicare for all? That actually is how President Bernie Sanders actually is how President Bernie Sanders actually is how President Bernie Sanders would have governed. we would have, you would have governed. we would have, you would have governed. we would have, you know, expanded Medicare, expanded what know, expanded Medicare, expanded what know, expanded Medicare, expanded what it covers, dropped down the age range. it covers, dropped down the age range. it covers, dropped down the age range. And so there is this constant uh And so there is this constant uh And so there is this constant uh compromise when you're governing. I compromise when you're governing. I compromise when you're governing. I think it is healthy to watch that think it is healthy to watch that think it is healthy to watch that playing out. [sighs and gasps] How much playing out. [sighs and gasps] How much playing out. [sighs and gasps] How much to take the DSA as a signal of where to take the DSA as a signal of where to take the DSA as a signal of where these candidates even want to go that these candidates even want to go that these candidates even want to go that I'm less sure-footed on. What do you I'm less sure-footed on. What do you I'm less sure-footed on. What do you think of the critique that just like think of the critique that just like think of the critique that just like this platform on their website is really this platform on their website is really this platform on their website is really politically damaging for other Democrats politically damaging for other Democrats politically damaging for other Democrats is going to be weaponized by is going to be weaponized by is going to be weaponized by Republicans? And if it's not actually Republicans? And if it's not actually Republicans? And if it's not actually meaningful for how DSA electeds govern, meaningful for how DSA electeds govern, meaningful for how DSA electeds govern, then what is the point? I think you then what is the point? I think you then what is the point? I think you would have to ask a member of the DSA would have to ask a member of the DSA would have to ask a member of the DSA that I I don't know to what degree that I I don't know to what degree that I I don't know to what degree Democrats broadly are going to be forced Democrats broadly are going to be forced Democrats broadly are going to be forced to answer for what the DSA believes. My to answer for what the DSA believes. My to answer for what the DSA believes. My suspicion is not that aggressively suspicion is not that aggressively suspicion is not that aggressively because I do think people understand the because I do think people understand the because I do think people understand the DSA is a distinctive thing. And so the DSA is a distinctive thing. And so the DSA is a distinctive thing. And so the idea that in North Carolina they're idea that in North Carolina they're idea that in North Carolina they're going to run a bunch of ads against Roy going to run a bunch of ads against Roy going to run a bunch of ads against Roy Cooper saying he believes in what like Cooper saying he believes in what like Cooper saying he believes in what like the DSA website, I don't think anybody the DSA website, I don't think anybody the DSA website, I don't think anybody buys that. I don't think it really buys that. I don't think it really buys that. I don't think it really works. Now they will matter what DSA works. Now they will matter what DSA works. Now they will matter what DSA candidates do when they come into

candidates do when they come into candidates do when they come into Congress. So, if you have, you know, uh, Congress. So, if you have, you know, uh, Congress. So, if you have, you know, uh, some of these newer members of of of some of these newer members of of of some of these newer members of of of Congress who are DSA affiliated Congress who are DSA affiliated Congress who are DSA affiliated putting forward a lot of bills to putting forward a lot of bills to putting forward a lot of bills to abolish police or abolish prisons, abolish police or abolish prisons, abolish police or abolish prisons, then and and demanding Democrats vote on then and and demanding Democrats vote on then and and demanding Democrats vote on them, uh, then you're going to start to them, uh, then you're going to start to them, uh, then you're going to start to see more effort to, you know, define the see more effort to, you know, define the see more effort to, you know, define the party by what it's kind of high party by what it's kind of high party by what it's kind of high attention left flank is doing. M Donnie attention left flank is doing. M Donnie attention left flank is doing. M Donnie coming out and giving that uh sort of coming out and giving that uh sort of coming out and giving that uh sort of direct to camera address on how he would direct to camera address on how he would direct to camera address on how he would like to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu and like to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu and like to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu and calls on the federal government to do calls on the federal government to do calls on the federal government to do that. that. that. >> It is clear that we do not have the >> It is clear that we do not have the >> It is clear that we do not have the independent legal authority to enforce independent legal authority to enforce independent legal authority to enforce this warrant. The federal government, this warrant. The federal government, this warrant. The federal government, however, does and I call on them to join however, does and I call on them to join however, does and I call on them to join the ICC and execute this warrant. And I the ICC and execute this warrant. And I the ICC and execute this warrant. And I want to be equally clear. Benjamin want to be equally clear. Benjamin want to be equally clear. Benjamin Netanyahu is not welcome in New York Netanyahu is not welcome in New York Netanyahu is not welcome in New York City, nor is any other war criminal at City, nor is any other war criminal at City, nor is any other war criminal at large. that is going to be an issue for large. that is going to be an issue for large. that is going to be an issue for that the Republican party will try to that the Republican party will try to that the Republican party will try to weaponize against voters who are maybe weaponize against voters who are maybe weaponize against voters who are maybe crossressured crossressured crossressured um and are maybe even critical of Israel um and are maybe even critical of Israel um and are maybe even critical of Israel but do not want to go where Mamani and but do not want to go where Mamani and but do not want to go where Mamani and the DSA want to go on Israel. Mamani the DSA want to go on Israel. Mamani the DSA want to go on Israel. Mamani being a central figure in the Democratic being a central figure in the Democratic being a central figure in the Democratic party and making that statement that is party and making that statement that is party and making that statement that is something other Democrats are going to something other Democrats are going to something other Democrats are going to have to deal with. The DSA having stuff have to deal with. The DSA having stuff have to deal with. The DSA having stuff on its website um I'm just skeptical on its website um I'm just skeptical on its website um I'm just skeptical that's going to become a major political that's going to become a major political that's going to become a major political issue. So, we got a bunch of questions issue. So, we got a bunch of questions issue. So, we got a bunch of questions that were all the same question. So, that were all the same question. So, that were all the same question. So, this one is Amy T. Is this true that you this one is Amy T. Is this true that you this one is Amy T. Is this true that you are part of the dialogue group sponsored are part of the dialogue group sponsored are part of the dialogue group sponsored by Peter Teal?

by Peter Teal? by Peter Teal? >> Okay, dialogue. Let me start here. What >> Okay, dialogue. Let me start here. What >> Okay, dialogue. Let me start here. What happens is that as best I understand it, happens is that as best I understand it, happens is that as best I understand it, um, some hacker goes on Blue Sky and is um, some hacker goes on Blue Sky and is um, some hacker goes on Blue Sky and is like, I got the membership roles of like, I got the membership roles of like, I got the membership roles of Peter Teal's Secret Society and includes Peter Teal's Secret Society and includes Peter Teal's Secret Society and includes all these people, Elon Musk and Peter all these people, Elon Musk and Peter all these people, Elon Musk and Peter Teal and Reed Hoffman and Joseph Gordon Teal and Reed Hoffman and Joseph Gordon Teal and Reed Hoffman and Joseph Gordon Levit and Josh Brolan and me and Julian Levit and Josh Brolan and me and Julian Levit and Josh Brolan and me and Julian Castro and Corey Booker and like just Castro and Corey Booker and like just Castro and Corey Booker and like just like tons of people with very very like tons of people with very very like tons of people with very very different roles in the world, different different roles in the world, different different roles in the world, different politics. politics. politics. >> Cool hang. >> Cool hang. >> Cool hang. >> Cool hang, right? Uh and then like this >> Cool hang, right? Uh and then like this >> Cool hang, right? Uh and then like this gets picked up like pretty credulously gets picked up like pretty credulously gets picked up like pretty credulously by Wired. This was surprising to live by Wired. This was surprising to live by Wired. This was surprising to live through. Uh dialogue is a pretty benal through. Uh dialogue is a pretty benal through. Uh dialogue is a pretty benal conference. It is not secret. Um just conference. It is not secret. Um just conference. It is not secret. Um just like flatly. It's not secret. Nobody like flatly. It's not secret. Nobody like flatly. It's not secret. Nobody ever asked me to keep my presence there ever asked me to keep my presence there ever asked me to keep my presence there a secret. I went twice I think. Now I'd a secret. I went twice I think. Now I'd a secret. I went twice I think. Now I'd have to remember the dates, but I think have to remember the dates, but I think have to remember the dates, but I think it was 2018 and 2022 or something like it was 2018 and 2022 or something like it was 2018 and 2022 or something like that. It was like one pre- pandemic, one that. It was like one pre- pandemic, one that. It was like one pre- pandemic, one kind of post pandemic. kind of post pandemic. kind of post pandemic. >> And why did you never speak about it?

>> And why did you never speak about it? >> And why did you never speak about it? because I why would I have spoken about because I why would I have spoken about because I why would I have spoken about it? I mean I don't speak about most it? I mean I don't speak about most it? I mean I don't speak about most conferences I go to. It is off the conferences I go to. It is off the conferences I go to. It is off the record in the way most conferences are. record in the way most conferences are. record in the way most conferences are. I mean you can quote somebody if they I mean you can quote somebody if they I mean you can quote somebody if they let you but so okay so dialogue it's a let you but so okay so dialogue it's a let you but so okay so dialogue it's a conference sort of like an unconference conference sort of like an unconference conference sort of like an unconference style. I went because um at that time I style. I went because um at that time I style. I went because um at that time I was trying to do more coverage of tech was trying to do more coverage of tech was trying to do more coverage of tech and and and >> what what is unconference style? >> what what is unconference style? >> what what is unconference style? >> Oh sorry unconference style there aren't >> Oh sorry unconference style there aren't >> Oh sorry unconference style there aren't panels like people kind of panels like people kind of panels like people kind of self-organize. is you like write up on a self-organize. is you like write up on a self-organize. is you like write up on a board like I would like to have a board like I would like to have a board like I would like to have a session on being a working parent or session on being a working parent or session on being a working parent or better sleep hygiene or are there any better sleep hygiene or are there any better sleep hygiene or are there any real uses of crypto or whatever it might real uses of crypto or whatever it might real uses of crypto or whatever it might be. Um so you don't go and like sit be. Um so you don't go and like sit be. Um so you don't go and like sit there and like listen to people talk at there and like listen to people talk at there and like listen to people talk at you. you. you. >> This this is like a genre and genre. You >> This this is like a genre and genre. You >> This this is like a genre and genre. You are deep in conference world my friend. are deep in conference world my friend. are deep in conference world my friend. I've done a lot of conferences. That is I've done a lot of conferences. That is I've done a lot of conferences. That is part of my job to go places and meet part of my job to go places and meet part of my job to go places and meet people and like listen to them and see people and like listen to them and see people and like listen to them and see if they'd be one day good guests on my if they'd be one day good guests on my if they'd be one day good guests on my show and like that is like as you know show and like that is like as you know show and like that is like as you know like part of what I do. But dialogue was like part of what I do. But dialogue was like part of what I do. But dialogue was a conference and the one I went to the a conference and the one I went to the a conference and the one I went to the first one was for like people under 40 I first one was for like people under 40 I first one was for like people under 40 I think it was and so it was sort of like think it was and so it was sort of like think it was and so it was sort of like young more up and cominging people like young more up and cominging people like young more up and cominging people like my favorite person I met there was an my favorite person I met there was an my favorite person I met there was an kind of lefty anarchist. Uh it wasn't kind of lefty anarchist. Uh it wasn't kind of lefty anarchist. Uh it wasn't like any of those bold-faced names who I like any of those bold-faced names who I like any of those bold-faced names who I then was told I was in a secret society then was told I was in a secret society then was told I was in a secret society with. like there was no Elon Musk. I've with. like there was no Elon Musk. I've with. like there was no Elon Musk. I've never heard of him as involved with it never heard of him as involved with it never heard of him as involved with it or Reed Hoffman or any of those people.

or Reed Hoffman or any of those people. or Reed Hoffman or any of those people. I went again a couple years later and I went again a couple years later and I went again a couple years later and just found it like the second one I went just found it like the second one I went just found it like the second one I went to kind of like to kind of like to kind of like lame and it was reflecting the curdling lame and it was reflecting the curdling lame and it was reflecting the curdling anger of the techright in that era and I anger of the techright in that era and I anger of the techright in that era and I just found the energy pretty unpleasant just found the energy pretty unpleasant just found the energy pretty unpleasant and I didn't go back. By the time I went and I didn't go back. By the time I went and I didn't go back. By the time I went my understanding is Peter Tiel was not my understanding is Peter Tiel was not my understanding is Peter Tiel was not involved. uh he was one of the multiple involved. uh he was one of the multiple involved. uh he was one of the multiple co-founders of dialogue. I never saw him co-founders of dialogue. I never saw him co-founders of dialogue. I never saw him at it or heard from him in respect to at it or heard from him in respect to at it or heard from him in respect to it. I do want to say because I think it. I do want to say because I think it. I do want to say because I think people could get the wrong idea. I'm not people could get the wrong idea. I'm not people could get the wrong idea. I'm not saying I think there would be a problem saying I think there would be a problem saying I think there would be a problem if Peter Teal was still involved. I've if Peter Teal was still involved. I've if Peter Teal was still involved. I've invited Peter Teal on this show. He has invited Peter Teal on this show. He has invited Peter Teal on this show. He has not come on. I have had reporting not come on. I have had reporting not come on. I have had reporting meetings with Peter Teal. That is my meetings with Peter Teal. That is my meetings with Peter Teal. That is my job. I do not see Peter Teal or anybody job. I do not see Peter Teal or anybody job. I do not see Peter Teal or anybody in our society as somebody I cannot or in our society as somebody I cannot or in our society as somebody I cannot or should not talk to. So dialogue when I should not talk to. So dialogue when I should not talk to. So dialogue when I went no Peter Teal not a society it was went no Peter Teal not a society it was went no Peter Teal not a society it was like a conference you went to also not a like a conference you went to also not a like a conference you went to also not a secret and so then to like continuously secret and so then to like continuously secret and so then to like continuously see this thing that you know is being see this thing that you know is being see this thing that you know is being believed by people that I'm in this believed by people that I'm in this believed by people that I'm in this secret society with Peter Teal and like secret society with Peter Teal and like secret society with Peter Teal and like what would that without anybody even what would that without anybody even what would that without anybody even being clear of like what that would mean being clear of like what that would mean being clear of like what that would mean like what would it mean for Julian like what would it mean for Julian like what would it mean for Julian Castro who again he came up earlier in Castro who again he came up earlier in Castro who again he came up earlier in our conversation like really push a our conversation like really push a our conversation like really push a Democratic party left on immigration Democratic party left on immigration Democratic party left on immigration and Peter supporting like why would you say that there's a way of looking at the say that there's a way of looking at the world that um I was really surprised how

world that um I was really surprised how world that um I was really surprised how many people seemed to buy into this and many people seemed to buy into this and many people seemed to buy into this and then I was particularly surprised to then I was particularly surprised to then I was particularly surprised to have it be around this conference have it be around this conference have it be around this conference dialogue because what I will say in dialogue because what I will say in dialogue because what I will say in dialogue's favor actually is that it was dialogue's favor actually is that it was dialogue's favor actually is that it was a conference that invited a wide variety a conference that invited a wide variety a conference that invited a wide variety of people from a very wide variety of of people from a very wide variety of of people from a very wide variety of industries and ideologies industries and ideologies industries and ideologies to do what it said on the tin to like go to do what it said on the tin to like go to do what it said on the tin to like go to a place and be in dialogue with each to a place and be in dialogue with each to a place and be in dialogue with each other for the weekend and or for a other for the weekend and or for a other for the weekend and or for a couple days or whenever it was held. And couple days or whenever it was held. And couple days or whenever it was held. And it did an okay job of that. Like on it did an okay job of that. Like on it did an okay job of that. Like on conferences I've gone to, it's not the conferences I've gone to, it's not the conferences I've gone to, it's not the best. It's definitely not the worst. And best. It's definitely not the worst. And best. It's definitely not the worst. And its fundamental nature was fractious. In its fundamental nature was fractious. In its fundamental nature was fractious. In part, its fractiousness is why I didn't part, its fractiousness is why I didn't part, its fractiousness is why I didn't really want to go back because I just really want to go back because I just really want to go back because I just found some of the conversations very found some of the conversations very found some of the conversations very unpleasant. there's like a big focus in unpleasant. there's like a big focus in unpleasant. there's like a big focus in that second one I was at about like your that second one I was at about like your that second one I was at about like your most unpopular opinion and it just felt most unpopular opinion and it just felt most unpopular opinion and it just felt very performative to me. Well, I think I very performative to me. Well, I think I very performative to me. Well, I think I think the thing that um bothers a lot of think the thing that um bothers a lot of think the thing that um bothers a lot of people about this or that it taps into people about this or that it taps into people about this or that it taps into on some level is this feeling of elites on some level is this feeling of elites on some level is this feeling of elites who um people understand as like having who um people understand as like having who um people understand as like having radically different politics and being radically different politics and being radically different politics and being from radically different worlds just from radically different worlds just from radically different worlds just like all hanging out in a chummy way.

like all hanging out in a chummy way. like all hanging out in a chummy way. Um, and it just feeling like then Um, and it just feeling like then Um, and it just feeling like then they're on the receiving end of this they're on the receiving end of this they're on the receiving end of this performance when actually like elites performance when actually like elites performance when actually like elites are all hanging out and have this kind are all hanging out and have this kind are all hanging out and have this kind of like class solidarity with each of like class solidarity with each of like class solidarity with each other. And it was a thing that like in other. And it was a thing that like in other. And it was a thing that like in the episode with uh Anan Gerodardos on the episode with uh Anan Gerodardos on the episode with uh Anan Gerodardos on Jeffrey Epstein and what it revealed Jeffrey Epstein and what it revealed Jeffrey Epstein and what it revealed about elite networks, he was kind of about elite networks, he was kind of about elite networks, he was kind of saying this and that there was like a saying this and that there was like a saying this and that there was like a kernel of truth to it about how elite kernel of truth to it about how elite kernel of truth to it about how elite networks work. networks work. networks work. >> Even if these people were on cable, >> Even if these people were on cable, >> Even if these people were on cable, you're sitting at home, you're watching you're sitting at home, you're watching you're sitting at home, you're watching cable at the end of the day and you're cable at the end of the day and you're cable at the end of the day and you're seeing these two talking heads fight. seeing these two talking heads fight. seeing these two talking heads fight. But that's for you. That's the spectacle But that's for you. That's the spectacle But that's for you. That's the spectacle for you at home to keep you entertained. for you at home to keep you entertained. for you at home to keep you entertained. What they're actually doing is revealed What they're actually doing is revealed What they're actually doing is revealed in these files, which is hanging out, in these files, which is hanging out, in these files, which is hanging out, breaking bread, colluding, sharing breaking bread, colluding, sharing breaking bread, colluding, sharing information, giving each other tips on information, giving each other tips on information, giving each other tips on deals, giving each other PR advice, deals, giving each other PR advice, deals, giving each other PR advice, making introductions to each other. making introductions to each other. making introductions to each other. >> That's the thing. I think this >> That's the thing. I think this >> That's the thing. I think this >> I don't really buy this to be honest. I >> I don't really buy this to be honest. I >> I don't really buy this to be honest. I mean, or let me put it this way. If mean, or let me put it this way. If mean, or let me put it this way. If somebody wants to make this critique of somebody wants to make this critique of somebody wants to make this critique of like functionally all conferences that like functionally all conferences that like functionally all conferences that they collect people from like within an they collect people from like within an they collect people from like within an industry or across industries and put industry or across industries and put industry or across industries and put them together and you think that's bad, them together and you think that's bad, them together and you think that's bad, that's fine, right? Like that's a that's fine, right? Like that's a that's fine, right? Like that's a totally legitimate view to hold about totally legitimate view to hold about totally legitimate view to hold about the world. I don't think that is bad. I the world. I don't think that is bad. I the world. I don't think that is bad. I do that work here in public. I try to do that work here in public. I try to do that work here in public. I try to have conversations with many different have conversations with many different have conversations with many different kinds of people across industries, kinds of people across industries, kinds of people across industries, across ideologies in a way that is

across ideologies in a way that is across ideologies in a way that is simultaneously honest and like simultaneously honest and like simultaneously honest and like fundamentally gracious. I believe that fundamentally gracious. I believe that fundamentally gracious. I believe that is not just not a bad thing. I believe is not just not a bad thing. I believe is not just not a bad thing. I believe it is a democratic habit that should be it is a democratic habit that should be it is a democratic habit that should be cultivated. cultivated. cultivated. I think civic friendship even across I think civic friendship even across I think civic friendship even across real difference is more than beautiful. real difference is more than beautiful. real difference is more than beautiful. It is necessary. It is necessary. It is necessary. And it's not that I think Dialogue is And it's not that I think Dialogue is And it's not that I think Dialogue is doing something like amazing for the doing something like amazing for the doing something like amazing for the world, but you are definitely not going world, but you are definitely not going world, but you are definitely not going to get me to sit here and say that the to get me to sit here and say that the to get me to sit here and say that the problem is that there might be a space problem is that there might be a space problem is that there might be a space where I don't know Ted Cruz and Joseph where I don't know Ted Cruz and Joseph where I don't know Ted Cruz and Joseph Gordon Levit and um somebody who works Gordon Levit and um somebody who works Gordon Levit and um somebody who works on cyber security risk at Microsoft on cyber security risk at Microsoft on cyber security risk at Microsoft might have a conversation with each might have a conversation with each might have a conversation with each other. I think that's helpful. Like I other. I think that's helpful. Like I other. I think that's helpful. Like I think that's good. think that's good. think that's good. Epstein, the problem was it was a Epstein, the problem was it was a Epstein, the problem was it was a transactional network built around transactional network built around transactional network built around protecting a pedophile. protecting a pedophile. protecting a pedophile. The output of the network is the The output of the network is the The output of the network is the problem. And my critique of people who problem. And my critique of people who problem. And my critique of people who are in the Epstein files late by the are in the Epstein files late by the are in the Epstein files late by the time that they had to know what he was time that they had to know what he was time that they had to know what he was doing or at least had information that doing or at least had information that doing or at least had information that they had to reject about what he had they had to reject about what he had they had to reject about what he had done is that they were protecting a done is that they were protecting a done is that they were protecting a pedophile. It is not that there's some pedophile. It is not that there's some pedophile. It is not that there's some world in which Nam Chomsky and Steve world in which Nam Chomsky and Steve world in which Nam Chomsky and Steve Bannon might have dinner. Like that Bannon might have dinner. Like that Bannon might have dinner. Like that seems interesting on some level to me or seems interesting on some level to me or seems interesting on some level to me or Peter Keel, Nam Chosky, whoever it might Peter Keel, Nam Chosky, whoever it might Peter Keel, Nam Chosky, whoever it might have been. I think people should talk to have been. I think people should talk to have been. I think people should talk to people they don't agree with. But if people they don't agree with. But if people they don't agree with. But if your belief is that these people should your belief is that these people should your belief is that these people should not get to know each other, then I just not get to know each other, then I just not get to know each other, then I just don't agree.

don't agree. don't agree. The reason dialogue became or this thing The reason dialogue became or this thing The reason dialogue became or this thing became a what it is is because it was became a what it is is because it was became a what it is is because it was called like a secret society. And so called like a secret society. And so called like a secret society. And so like spin was put on the ball to suggest like spin was put on the ball to suggest like spin was put on the ball to suggest that oh in public Ezra Klein and Peter that oh in public Ezra Klein and Peter that oh in public Ezra Klein and Peter Teal are pursuing different agendas in Teal are pursuing different agendas in Teal are pursuing different agendas in private they're dressing up in robes and private they're dressing up in robes and private they're dressing up in robes and sacrificing a goat and trying to do the sacrificing a goat and trying to do the sacrificing a goat and trying to do the same thing. And that's not true. same thing. And that's not true. same thing. And that's not true. It's just not true. Technocratic It's just not true. Technocratic It's just not true. Technocratic liberals, managerial professional class liberals, managerial professional class liberals, managerial professional class liberals, they can sometimes make the liberals, they can sometimes make the liberals, they can sometimes make the world too complicated to understand. world too complicated to understand. world too complicated to understand. Conspiratorial populism makes it too Conspiratorial populism makes it too Conspiratorial populism makes it too simple to understand. That is not how simple to understand. That is not how simple to understand. That is not how the world works. People are mostly doing the world works. People are mostly doing the world works. People are mostly doing in private what they're doing in public. in private what they're doing in public. in private what they're doing in public. There would not be safety among a bunch There would not be safety among a bunch There would not be safety among a bunch of people who disagree that much to like of people who disagree that much to like of people who disagree that much to like coordinate or like say what's really on coordinate or like say what's really on coordinate or like say what's really on their minds or or anything. Like I can their minds or or anything. Like I can their minds or or anything. Like I can even get Peter Teal to come on the show even get Peter Teal to come on the show even get Peter Teal to come on the show and I kind of understand why he doesn't and I kind of understand why he doesn't and I kind of understand why he doesn't want to come on the show. say one thing want to come on the show. say one thing want to come on the show. say one thing uh that you disagree with Peter Chiel uh that you disagree with Peter Chiel uh that you disagree with Peter Chiel about about about >> that democracy >> that democracy >> that democracy and freedom and capitalism are and freedom and capitalism are and freedom and capitalism are incompatible that Donald Trump should be incompatible that Donald Trump should be incompatible that Donald Trump should be president that um that Palunteer should president that um that Palunteer should president that um that Palunteer should exist in the way that it currently does exist in the way that it currently does exist in the way that it currently does like I find Peter Thiel's functionally like I find Peter Thiel's functionally like I find Peter Thiel's functionally his entire agenda reprehensible his entire agenda reprehensible his entire agenda reprehensible >> was a cool website >> was a cool website >> was a cool website >> uh Baker was a cool website that Blake >> uh Baker was a cool website that Blake >> uh Baker was a cool website that Blake Masters should be a senator that JD Masters should be a senator that JD Masters should be a senator that JD Vance is a good political actor like Vance is a good political actor like Vance is a good political actor like Greta um Thunderberg is like a correct Greta um Thunderberg is like a correct Greta um Thunderberg is like a correct model to think about the antichrist.

model to think about the antichrist. model to think about the antichrist. I disagree with Peter too. Like his I disagree with Peter too. Like his I disagree with Peter too. Like his whole agenda is functionally like the whole agenda is functionally like the whole agenda is functionally like the opposite of mine, but I will absolutely opposite of mine, but I will absolutely opposite of mine, but I will absolutely talk to Peter. And so the dialogue talk to Peter. And so the dialogue talk to Peter. And so the dialogue thing, the main thing it did for me, I thing, the main thing it did for me, I thing, the main thing it did for me, I mean, there's also like the reality like mean, there's also like the reality like mean, there's also like the reality like I can't go and like knock on the doors I can't go and like knock on the doors I can't go and like knock on the doors of everybody who believes something of everybody who believes something of everybody who believes something untrue now and like correct the belief. untrue now and like correct the belief. untrue now and like correct the belief. Then like a few days ago on the Then like a few days ago on the Then like a few days ago on the internet, I was accused of being like a internet, I was accused of being like a internet, I was accused of being like a Chinese communist agent or spy or Chinese communist agent or spy or Chinese communist agent or spy or something. Like the kind of constant something. Like the kind of constant something. Like the kind of constant um cycle now of um cycle now of um cycle now of that you have no real way to that you have no real way to that you have no real way to correct is a a challenging thing I find correct is a a challenging thing I find correct is a a challenging thing I find to deal with. But I think it reflects to deal with. But I think it reflects to deal with. But I think it reflects something pretty negative. I I don't something pretty negative. I I don't something pretty negative. I I don't think it said anything good about the think it said anything good about the think it said anything good about the way people a lot of people are absorbing way people a lot of people are absorbing way people a lot of people are absorbing information about the world at the information about the world at the information about the world at the moment. I think it would also violate moment. I think it would also violate moment. I think it would also violate the New York Times like employee the New York Times like employee the New York Times like employee handbook. handbook. handbook. >> Yeah, it would be I I think I'm not >> Yeah, it would be I I think I'm not >> Yeah, it would be I I think I'm not supposed to be in a secret societ in a supposed to be in a secret societ in a supposed to be in a secret societ in a secret society. But what even is a secret society. But what even is a secret society. But what even is a secret society? Like what makes it a secret society? Like what makes it a secret society? Like what makes it a society? What makes it a secret? That I society? What makes it a secret? That I society? What makes it a secret? That I find to be an intellectually interesting find to be an intellectually interesting find to be an intellectually interesting question, but I don't question, but I don't question, but I don't >> I mean there needs to be an initiation >> I mean there needs to be an initiation >> I mean there needs to be an initiation ritual.

ritual. ritual. >> Sure, >> Sure, >> Sure, >> you can't tell people you're in it. >> you can't tell people you're in it. >> you can't tell people you're in it. >> And I think besides that, you can do >> And I think besides that, you can do >> And I think besides that, you can do whatever. whatever. whatever. >> Anyway, I'm not in any of those. I can >> Anyway, I'm not in any of those. I can >> Anyway, I'm not in any of those. I can say right now to my knowledge I'm not in say right now to my knowledge I'm not in say right now to my knowledge I'm not in any secret societies. [laughter] any secret societies. [laughter] any secret societies. [laughter] >> And you have to stay on an email distro >> And you have to stay on an email distro >> And you have to stay on an email distro for the rest of your life. for the rest of your life. for the rest of your life. >> Yeah, sure. >> Yeah, sure. >> Yeah, sure. >> Last question. So, what are three >> Last question. So, what are three >> Last question. So, what are three musicians or songs or albums that you musicians or songs or albums that you musicians or songs or albums that you would recommend to the audience? would recommend to the audience? would recommend to the audience? >> Oo. So, the four the Fort Wing album you >> Oo. So, the four the Fort Wing album you >> Oo. So, the four the Fort Wing album you should go find. And then maybe um I should go find. And then maybe um I should go find. And then maybe um I really into and I find this like very really into and I find this like very really into and I find this like very hypnotic this particular album. Mass hypnotic this particular album. Mass hypnotic this particular album. Mass Amable, I think it's called Mass Amab by Amable, I think it's called Mass Amab by Amable, I think it's called Mass Amab by DJ Python. Really cool, very strange DJ Python. Really cool, very strange DJ Python. Really cool, very strange music. And then maybe to offer a a song music. And then maybe to offer a a song music. And then maybe to offer a a song rather than a whole album. There's a rather than a whole album. There's a rather than a whole album. There's a John Hopkins Image and Heap John Hopkins Image and Heap John Hopkins Image and Heap collaboration that just came out called collaboration that just came out called collaboration that just came out called Reckoning. Both of them are amazing on Reckoning. Both of them are amazing on Reckoning. Both of them are amazing on their own. Like Image and Heap, longtime their own. Like Image and Heap, longtime their own. Like Image and Heap, longtime one of my favorite artists, John one of my favorite artists, John one of my favorite artists, John Hopkins, like his stuff is really, Hopkins, like his stuff is really, Hopkins, like his stuff is really, really cool. But coming together was I really cool. But coming together was I really cool. But coming together was I was very excited when I saw it and I was very excited when I saw it and I was very excited when I saw it and I have listened to it a lot since it came have listened to it a lot since it came have listened to it a lot since it came out.

out. out. >> Like you and Chris Rufo. [laughter] >> Like you and Chris Rufo. [laughter] >> Like you and Chris Rufo. [laughter] >> Thank you Ezra. >> Thank you Ezra. >> Thank you Ezra. >> Claire Gordon. Thank you very much. >> Claire Gordon. Thank you very much. >> Claire Gordon. Thank you very much. [music]