Gary Shteyngart Warned Us | The Ezra Klein Show

Over the past 6 months, I keep telling Over the past 6 months, I keep telling people, people, people, "We are living in Super Sad True Love "We are living in Super Sad True Love "We are living in Super Sad True Love Story." Story." Story." And sometimes they'll say to me, "What And sometimes they'll say to me, "What And sometimes they'll say to me, "What was Super Sad True Love Story? What do was Super Sad True Love Story? What do was Super Sad True Love Story? What do you mean?" you mean?" you mean?" Super Sad True Love Story, if for some Super Sad True Love Story, if for some Super Sad True Love Story, if for some terrible reason you don't know, terrible reason you don't know, terrible reason you don't know, is a 2010 book by Gary Shteyngart. And is a 2010 book by Gary Shteyngart. And is a 2010 book by Gary Shteyngart. And [music] I think more than any other [music] I think more than any other [music] I think more than any other book, book, book, it predicted the strangeness of the it predicted the strangeness of the it predicted the strangeness of the world we live in today. world we live in today. world we live in today. And also, a lot of what it feels like to And also, a lot of what it feels like to And also, a lot of what it feels like to live in it. live in it. live in it. All of the constant staring at screens, All of the constant staring at screens, All of the constant staring at screens, the hyper-visual nature of modern life, the hyper-visual nature of modern life, the hyper-visual nature of modern life, the obsession with wellness the obsession with wellness the obsession with wellness >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> and longevity, >> and longevity, >> and longevity, and looksmaxing, and looksmaxing, and looksmaxing, amidst a backdrop of a country that amidst a backdrop of a country that amidst a backdrop of a country that often feels like it's falling apart. often feels like it's falling apart. often feels like it's falling apart. >> We are living in a time of profound >> We are living in a time of profound >> We are living in a time of profound corruption. corruption. corruption. >> Inflation is hitting its highest point >> Inflation is hitting its highest point >> Inflation is hitting its highest point in 3 years. in 3 years. in 3 years. >> A world where >> A world where >> A world where everybody is upset, everybody is upset, everybody is upset, and they're grabbing at the wrong things and they're grabbing at the wrong things and they're grabbing at the wrong things to try to fix it.

to try to fix it. to try to fix it. I wanted to understand how the author of I wanted to understand how the author of I wanted to understand how the author of this book, Gary Shteyngart, this book, Gary Shteyngart, this book, Gary Shteyngart, had predicted all this, how he had known had predicted all this, how he had known had predicted all this, how he had known what it was going to feel like well into what it was going to feel like well into what it was going to feel like well into the future of when he was writing. the future of when he was writing. the future of when he was writing. Gary Shteyngart, of course, has written Gary Shteyngart, of course, has written Gary Shteyngart, of course, has written a number of wonderful novels, including a number of wonderful novels, including a number of wonderful novels, including The Russian Debutante's Handbook, The Russian Debutante's Handbook, The Russian Debutante's Handbook, Absurdistan, and his most recent, Vera Absurdistan, and his most recent, Vera Absurdistan, and his most recent, Vera or Faith. or Faith. or Faith. He's also written all these amazing He's also written all these amazing He's also written all these amazing essays [music] on travel and cruise essays [music] on travel and cruise essays [music] on travel and cruise ships and martinis and his love of suits ships and martinis and his love of suits ships and martinis and his love of suits and watches. Many of those essays will and watches. Many of those essays will and watches. Many of those essays will be collected in a new book coming out in be collected in a new book coming out in be collected in a new book coming out in November called The Sensualist. November called The Sensualist. November called The Sensualist. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> That name, The Sensualist, I think tells >> That name, The Sensualist, I think tells >> That name, The Sensualist, I think tells you something about what his project is, you something about what his project is, you something about what his project is, what he [music] believes is necessary to what he [music] believes is necessary to what he [music] believes is necessary to live well in a moment like this one. live well in a moment like this one. live well in a moment like this one. But I wanted to talk to him about all of But I wanted to talk to him about all of But I wanted to talk to him about all of it. As always, my email [music] is it. As always, my email [music] is it. As always, my email [music] is [email protected]. >> [music] >> [music] >> Before we begin today's show, we're >> Before we begin today's show, we're >> Before we begin today's show, we're going to be doing an ask me anything going to be doing an ask me anything going to be doing an ask me anything episode quite soon. So, if you have episode quite soon. So, if you have episode quite soon. So, if you have [music] any questions, email us at [music] any questions, email us at [music] any questions, email us at [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] with the headline AMA.

with the headline AMA. with the headline AMA. Gary Shteyngart, [music] welcome to the Gary Shteyngart, [music] welcome to the Gary Shteyngart, [music] welcome to the show. show. show. >> Great to be here. Longtime listener. >> Great to be here. Longtime listener. >> Great to be here. Longtime listener. >> So, I've said to many people in my life >> So, I've said to many people in my life >> So, I've said to many people in my life that when I look around right now, I that when I look around right now, I that when I look around right now, I feel like I'm living in the world of feel like I'm living in the world of feel like I'm living in the world of Super Sad True Love Story. Super Sad True Love Story. Super Sad True Love Story. So, for those who haven't read it, can So, for those who haven't read it, can So, for those who haven't read it, can you just describe the world you create you just describe the world you create you just describe the world you create in that book? in that book? in that book? >> So, everyone carries a device called the >> So, everyone carries a device called the >> So, everyone carries a device called the apparet, which wherever they go it apparet, which wherever they go it apparet, which wherever they go it constantly ranks them. But, you know, constantly ranks them. But, you know, constantly ranks them. But, you know, the sort of the germ of Super Sad True the sort of the germ of Super Sad True the sort of the germ of Super Sad True Love Story is that the main character Love Story is that the main character Love Story is that the main character Lenny Abramov Lenny Abramov Lenny Abramov will walk into a bar or restaurant and will walk into a bar or restaurant and will walk into a bar or restaurant and immediately he is ranked as say the 23rd immediately he is ranked as say the 23rd immediately he is ranked as say the 23rd ugliest man in the room, right? That's ugliest man in the room, right? That's ugliest man in the room, right? That's that's his thing. Uh at one point he that's his thing. Uh at one point he that's his thing. Uh at one point he walks in and he's the second ugliest man walks in and he's the second ugliest man walks in and he's the second ugliest man in the room and the ugliest man can't in the room and the ugliest man can't in the room and the ugliest man can't take it and he leaves so that Lenny take it and he leaves so that Lenny take it and he leaves so that Lenny becomes the ugliest man in the room. becomes the ugliest man in the room. becomes the ugliest man in the room. Uh you're constantly being ranked Uh you're constantly being ranked Uh you're constantly being ranked everywhere. You're being ranked even as everywhere. You're being ranked even as everywhere. You're being ranked even as you walk down the street. There's giant you walk down the street. There's giant you walk down the street. There's giant credit poles that showcase your credit credit poles that showcase your credit credit poles that showcase your credit for, you know, you can tell for, you know, you can tell for, you know, you can tell Gary has 600 out of 800 points in Gary has 600 out of 800 points in Gary has 600 out of 800 points in credit. He needs to save more. So, even credit. He needs to save more. So, even credit. He needs to save more. So, even on that level the society is so on that level the society is so on that level the society is so intrusive that it tells you you needs to intrusive that it tells you you needs to intrusive that it tells you you needs to save more. Some people need to spend save more. Some people need to spend save more. Some people need to spend more. It just constantly wants to keep more. It just constantly wants to keep more. It just constantly wants to keep people in equilibrium.

people in equilibrium. people in equilibrium. Um Um Um women are very sexualized even more so women are very sexualized even more so women are very sexualized even more so than in our world. than in our world. than in our world. America's run by a kind of, well, America's run by a kind of, well, America's run by a kind of, well, fascist leader who has started a war in fascist leader who has started a war in fascist leader who has started a war in Venezuela, etc. So, a lot of familiar Venezuela, etc. So, a lot of familiar Venezuela, etc. So, a lot of familiar stuff is happening. stuff is happening. stuff is happening. Um there's two main characters. Lenny is Um there's two main characters. Lenny is Um there's two main characters. Lenny is kind of like me, a sort of neo-nebbish kind of like me, a sort of neo-nebbish kind of like me, a sort of neo-nebbish who's who's who's uh Gen X, uh Gen X, uh Gen X, which is this interesting generation which is this interesting generation which is this interesting generation that's kind of a bridge between the that's kind of a bridge between the that's kind of a bridge between the analog and the digital worlds. And analog and the digital worlds. And analog and the digital worlds. And Eunice is 10-15 years younger than him, Eunice is 10-15 years younger than him, Eunice is 10-15 years younger than him, but she's already a full digital native. but she's already a full digital native. but she's already a full digital native. So, probably, you know, if you think So, probably, you know, if you think So, probably, you know, if you think millennial or something like that. And millennial or something like that. And millennial or something like that. And so, this is a very unlikely love affair so, this is a very unlikely love affair so, this is a very unlikely love affair between two people. And I think the between two people. And I think the between two people. And I think the biggest thing biggest thing biggest thing that holds them back is the fact that that holds them back is the fact that that holds them back is the fact that they live they live in two different they live they live in two different they live they live in two different worlds. worlds. worlds. >> So, the thing that made me start >> So, the thing that made me start >> So, the thing that made me start thinking a lot about Super Sad True Love thinking a lot about Super Sad True Love thinking a lot about Super Sad True Love Story has been the omnipresence of Brian Story has been the omnipresence of Brian Story has been the omnipresence of Brian Johnson, the longevity influencer, Johnson, the longevity influencer, Johnson, the longevity influencer, clavicular, the looksmaxer. clavicular, the looksmaxer. clavicular, the looksmaxer. And the way that streaming culture and And the way that streaming culture and And the way that streaming culture and looks and ratings and everything, hyper looks and ratings and everything, hyper looks and ratings and everything, hyper visual culture, all seem to be now visual culture, all seem to be now visual culture, all seem to be now holding our attention in a way I don't holding our attention in a way I don't holding our attention in a way I don't remember happening before.

remember happening before. remember happening before. So, as a guy who wrote a book about all So, as a guy who wrote a book about all So, as a guy who wrote a book about all this as the future at one point, how this as the future at one point, how this as the future at one point, how does this look to you? does this look to you? does this look to you? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um you know, the book was written about >> Um you know, the book was written about >> Um you know, the book was written about mid-aughts, I would say. It came out in mid-aughts, I would say. It came out in mid-aughts, I would say. It came out in 2010. 2010. 2010. As I was writing I was thinking, yeah, As I was writing I was thinking, yeah, As I was writing I was thinking, yeah, this future might be possible in I don't this future might be possible in I don't this future might be possible in I don't know, 30 years. Usually when people are know, 30 years. Usually when people are know, 30 years. Usually when people are writing speculative fiction, they give writing speculative fiction, they give writing speculative fiction, they give themselves that 30-year corridor, but it themselves that 30-year corridor, but it themselves that 30-year corridor, but it happened to I don't know, 10 years happened to I don't know, 10 years happened to I don't know, 10 years later, 14, 15 years later. Um later, 14, 15 years later. Um later, 14, 15 years later. Um there's an invasion of Venezuela in this there's an invasion of Venezuela in this there's an invasion of Venezuela in this book. book. book. >> Oh yeah, there is an invasion of >> Oh yeah, there is an invasion of >> Oh yeah, there is an invasion of Venezuela in the book, yeah. Venezuela in the book, yeah. Venezuela in the book, yeah. >> Israel is controlled by a Smotrich-like >> Israel is controlled by a Smotrich-like >> Israel is controlled by a Smotrich-like party. It's called Security State party. It's called Security State party. It's called Security State Israel. It's this kind of Israel. It's this kind of Israel. It's this kind of Jewish Iran, if you will, which I think Jewish Iran, if you will, which I think Jewish Iran, if you will, which I think is where we're headed. But the main is where we're headed. But the main is where we're headed. But the main thing I was kind of thinking was, well, thing I was kind of thinking was, well, thing I was kind of thinking was, well, one of the main things was the way young one of the main things was the way young one of the main things was the way young people, including myself when I got people, including myself when I got people, including myself when I got into, you know, social media, was the into, you know, social media, was the into, you know, social media, was the way we were into being ranked. way we were into being ranked. way we were into being ranked. Uh this was something very new to me. I Uh this was something very new to me. I Uh this was something very new to me. I mean, I guess it's always been a thing, mean, I guess it's always been a thing, mean, I guess it's always been a thing, you know, people apply to college and you know, people apply to college and you know, people apply to college and then they're ranked to get in or then they're ranked to get in or then they're ranked to get in or you know, athletes are ranked, blah blah you know, athletes are ranked, blah blah you know, athletes are ranked, blah blah blah. We're in a very competitive blah. We're in a very competitive blah. We're in a very competitive society.

society. society. And in this book there's a thing called And in this book there's a thing called And in this book there's a thing called Rate Me Plus technology, which Rate Me Plus technology, which Rate Me Plus technology, which constantly ranks people over and over, constantly ranks people over and over, constantly ranks people over and over, not just on their looks, but also on not just on their looks, but also on not just on their looks, but also on their finances, all every single aspect their finances, all every single aspect their finances, all every single aspect of their being. of their being. of their being. And at one point the internet of the And at one point the internet of the And at one point the internet of the future goes out and future goes out and future goes out and the Rate Me Plus technology disappears the Rate Me Plus technology disappears the Rate Me Plus technology disappears and young people start killing and young people start killing and young people start killing themselves because they just can't themselves because they just can't themselves because they just can't understand how they can live without understand how they can live without understand how they can live without knowing where they fit into the grander knowing where they fit into the grander knowing where they fit into the grander scheme of things. Yeah, I thought that scheme of things. Yeah, I thought that scheme of things. Yeah, I thought that was a very I actually had that quote was a very I actually had that quote was a very I actually had that quote here. I found it very moving. You talk here. I found it very moving. You talk here. I found it very moving. You talk about these young people who committed about these young people who committed about these young people who committed suicide um in the building complex and suicide um in the building complex and suicide um in the building complex and you write, "One wrote quite eloquently you write, "One wrote quite eloquently you write, "One wrote quite eloquently about how he reached out to life but about how he reached out to life but about how he reached out to life but found there only walls and thoughts and found there only walls and thoughts and found there only walls and thoughts and faces which weren't enough. faces which weren't enough. faces which weren't enough. He needed to be ranked to know his place He needed to be ranked to know his place He needed to be ranked to know his place in this world." in this world." in this world." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh Yeah. Uh Yeah. Uh >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> I mean, when I wrote that, I remember >> I mean, when I wrote that, I remember >> I mean, when I wrote that, I remember feeling a little chilled myself because feeling a little chilled myself because feeling a little chilled myself because I wondered if that's I wondered if that's I wondered if that's if that's what the new technology that I if that's what the new technology that I if that's what the new technology that I was being exposed to, the Zuckerberg was being exposed to, the Zuckerberg was being exposed to, the Zuckerberg technology, was doing to me a little technology, was doing to me a little technology, was doing to me a little bit, you know, because I would um bit, you know, because I would um bit, you know, because I would um I travel a lot and there were times when I travel a lot and there were times when I travel a lot and there were times when I would go to, I don't know, some kind I would go to, I don't know, some kind I would go to, I don't know, some kind of Uzbekistan-like country and where of Uzbekistan-like country and where of Uzbekistan-like country and where there at that point you just didn't have there at that point you just didn't have there at that point you just didn't have constant contact with the internet. And constant contact with the internet. And constant contact with the internet. And I would find myself going through I would find myself going through I would find myself going through withdrawal, you know, if I went for 2 3 withdrawal, you know, if I went for 2 3 withdrawal, you know, if I went for 2 3 weeks and I was like, "But who who am I weeks and I was like, "But who who am I weeks and I was like, "But who who am I now?" You know, I'm just Gary in the now?" You know, I'm just Gary in the now?" You know, I'm just Gary in the block on the block. I I don't have um block on the block. I I don't have um block on the block. I I don't have um you know, that other I I fell into that you know, that other I I fell into that you know, that other I I fell into that trap so quickly. I have friends, trap so quickly. I have friends, trap so quickly. I have friends, relatives who relatives who relatives who uh work in Silicon Valley that they uh work in Silicon Valley that they uh work in Silicon Valley that they really create barriers between their really create barriers between their really create barriers between their kids and this technology. They know kids and this technology. They know kids and this technology. They know exactly what they're making and they

exactly what they're making and they exactly what they're making and they want their kids as far away from it as want their kids as far away from it as want their kids as far away from it as possible. possible. possible. And and look, none of this is 100% new. And and look, none of this is 100% new. And and look, none of this is 100% new. Ever since civilization began, there Ever since civilization began, there Ever since civilization began, there was, you know, the the head caveman and was, you know, the the head caveman and was, you know, the the head caveman and the lower caveman and the lower caveman and the lower caveman and blah blah blah. So, we we we know that blah blah blah. So, we we we know that blah blah blah. So, we we we know that there's always been a hierarchy, but the there's always been a hierarchy, but the there's always been a hierarchy, but the need to know to the infinitesimal need to know to the infinitesimal need to know to the infinitesimal decimal point. It was funny. Uh my decimal point. It was funny. Uh my decimal point. It was funny. Uh my preparation for some of this was going preparation for some of this was going preparation for some of this was going to a super competitive high school in to a super competitive high school in to a super competitive high school in New York, uh Stuyvesant High School, New York, uh Stuyvesant High School, New York, uh Stuyvesant High School, which was all full of immigrant kids which was all full of immigrant kids which was all full of immigrant kids like myself. I'm from the Soviet Union. like myself. I'm from the Soviet Union. like myself. I'm from the Soviet Union. Kids were from Soviet Union, East Asia, Kids were from Soviet Union, East Asia, Kids were from Soviet Union, East Asia, South Asia, etc. And I to this day, South Asia, etc. And I to this day, South Asia, etc. And I to this day, 86.894 86.894 86.894 was my average uh at Stuyvesant and I was my average uh at Stuyvesant and I was my average uh at Stuyvesant and I remember it. You know, this is a remember it. You know, this is a remember it. You know, this is a shocking thing to the thousandth decimal shocking thing to the thousandth decimal shocking thing to the thousandth decimal point. And that I think prepared me in point. And that I think prepared me in point. And that I think prepared me in some ways. Stuyvesant prepared me for some ways. Stuyvesant prepared me for some ways. Stuyvesant prepared me for this world in which every single metric this world in which every single metric this world in which every single metric is constantly deployed against you, I is constantly deployed against you, I is constantly deployed against you, I would say, because none of these people would say, because none of these people would say, because none of these people are enjoying life, you know, when you are enjoying life, you know, when you are enjoying life, you know, when you look at all these men who are, you know, look at all these men who are, you know, look at all these men who are, you know, measuring their cheekbone to the nth measuring their cheekbone to the nth measuring their cheekbone to the nth millimeter. This isn't a good way to millimeter. This isn't a good way to millimeter. This isn't a good way to live. [laughter] live. [laughter] live. [laughter] >> So, this to me, it's it's The other >> So, this to me, it's it's The other >> So, this to me, it's it's The other interesting thing about the book, and it interesting thing about the book, and it interesting thing about the book, and it also comes up in your your book of also comes up in your your book of also comes up in your your book of essays, but it is this simultaneous essays, but it is this simultaneous essays, but it is this simultaneous obsession with living forever without obsession with living forever without obsession with living forever without enjoying life.

enjoying life. enjoying life. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And what I was find so fascinating about >> And what I was find so fascinating about >> And what I was find so fascinating about when I watch Bryan Johnson I don't mean when I watch Bryan Johnson I don't mean when I watch Bryan Johnson I don't mean to be to be to be uh insulting everybody's life decisions uh insulting everybody's life decisions uh insulting everybody's life decisions here. here. here. But I don't know, if I was I I don't But I don't know, if I was I I don't But I don't know, if I was I I don't want to live like that. want to live like that. want to live like that. >> Your life goal is to drive down your >> Your life goal is to drive down your >> Your life goal is to drive down your heart rate, okay? The reason is because heart rate, okay? The reason is because heart rate, okay? The reason is because the lower heart your heart rate goes, the lower heart your heart rate goes, the lower heart your heart rate goes, the better your sleep, the better your the better your sleep, the better your the better your sleep, the better your sleep, the better willpower. More sleep, the better willpower. More sleep, the better willpower. More willpower, better exercise, better food. willpower, better exercise, better food. willpower, better exercise, better food. When your heart rate is high, When your heart rate is high, When your heart rate is high, bad sleep, bad willpower, no exercise, bad sleep, bad willpower, no exercise, bad sleep, bad willpower, no exercise, and bad food. So, resting heart rate is and bad food. So, resting heart rate is and bad food. So, resting heart rate is the most important marker of your entire the most important marker of your entire the most important marker of your entire life. life. life. >> I think the reason he is so fascinating >> I think the reason he is so fascinating >> I think the reason he is so fascinating people in part is that to constantly people in part is that to constantly people in part is that to constantly have a self-level self-examination, the have a self-level self-examination, the have a self-level self-examination, the self-level of self-diagnostics. self-level of self-diagnostics. self-level of self-diagnostics. I mean, you you have a partner now, and I mean, you you have a partner now, and I mean, you you have a partner now, and so the first thing you do is you go so the first thing you do is you go so the first thing you do is you go online and talk about her vaginal biome. online and talk about her vaginal biome. online and talk about her vaginal biome. >> Good relationships are really rare, and >> Good relationships are really rare, and >> Good relationships are really rare, and Kate is important to me because she Kate is important to me because she Kate is important to me because she really does feel like my other half.

really does feel like my other half. really does feel like my other half. >> Biohacker Bryan Johnson recently boasted >> Biohacker Bryan Johnson recently boasted >> Biohacker Bryan Johnson recently boasted about his girlfriend's top 1% vagina, about his girlfriend's top 1% vagina, about his girlfriend's top 1% vagina, sparking interest in at-home vaginal sparking interest in at-home vaginal sparking interest in at-home vaginal microbiome tests. microbiome tests. microbiome tests. >> Yes, got to get that vaginal biome. >> Yes, got to get that vaginal biome. >> Yes, got to get that vaginal biome. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Clavicular, who it's like you've >> Clavicular, who it's like you've >> Clavicular, who it's like you've divorced getting hot from the point of divorced getting hot from the point of divorced getting hot from the point of getting hot, right? He talks about how getting hot, right? He talks about how getting hot, right? He talks about how he can't have a girlfriend given the he can't have a girlfriend given the he can't have a girlfriend given the life he leads. He is not fertile. life he leads. He is not fertile. life he leads. He is not fertile. >> Wait, why are you infertile right now? >> Wait, why are you infertile right now? >> Wait, why are you infertile right now? >> Uh so, there is just like a negative >> Uh so, there is just like a negative >> Uh so, there is just like a negative feedback loop when you're uh you know, feedback loop when you're uh you know, feedback loop when you're uh you know, not needing to produce testosterone not needing to produce testosterone not needing to produce testosterone anymore cuz your body realizes, okay, anymore cuz your body realizes, okay, anymore cuz your body realizes, okay, we're getting it from an external we're getting it from an external we're getting it from an external >> are not producing any testosterone >> are not producing any testosterone >> are not producing any testosterone naturally? naturally? naturally? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> None? >> None? >> None? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Oh, I'm going to take a TRT, bro. >> Oh, I'm going to take a TRT, bro. >> Oh, I'm going to take a TRT, bro. >> We want to live because we want to >> We want to live because we want to >> We want to live because we want to enjoy. We want to be hot because we want enjoy. We want to be hot because we want enjoy. We want to be hot because we want love and children. And this severing of love and children. And this severing of love and children. And this severing of all of these urges from the things the all of these urges from the things the all of these urges from the things the urges are supposed to do, the severing urges are supposed to do, the severing urges are supposed to do, the severing of the pursuit of desire from the thing of the pursuit of desire from the thing of the pursuit of desire from the thing the desire is supposed to It's the desire is supposed to It's the desire is supposed to It's incredible. incredible. incredible. Um taking testosterone to look good, to Um taking testosterone to look good, to Um taking testosterone to look good, to attract a mate, but at the same time, attract a mate, but at the same time, attract a mate, but at the same time, you know, taking all this testosterone you know, taking all this testosterone you know, taking all this testosterone causes shrunken testicles, which causes shrunken testicles, which causes shrunken testicles, which probably will not allow you to probably will not allow you to probably will not allow you to propagate. So, you know, these things propagate. So, you know, these things propagate. So, you know, these things are completely at odds and at the same are completely at odds and at the same are completely at odds and at the same time it's almost like a perversion of time it's almost like a perversion of time it's almost like a perversion of whatever strange biological instincts we whatever strange biological instincts we whatever strange biological instincts we had. Clavicular is one of my favorites had. Clavicular is one of my favorites had. Clavicular is one of my favorites when it comes to this cuz he's just when it comes to this cuz he's just when it comes to this cuz he's just really funny unintentionally so.

really funny unintentionally so. really funny unintentionally so. >> How important is it to you to also make >> How important is it to you to also make >> How important is it to you to also make the girl have an orgasm? the girl have an orgasm? the girl have an orgasm? >> Not important. >> How come? >> How come? >> Well, because, you know, >> Well, because, you know, >> Well, because, you know, the amount of extra effort that's the amount of extra effort that's the amount of extra effort that's required to do that is just not going to required to do that is just not going to required to do that is just not going to really have much ROI. So, really have much ROI. So, really have much ROI. So, >> [laughter] I don't I don't >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, it's true. I mean, really. >> Well, it's true. I mean, really. >> Well, it's true. I mean, really. >> That means return on investment. >> That means return on investment. >> That means return on investment. >> Um you know, he'll talk about how um >> Um you know, he'll talk about how um >> Um you know, he'll talk about how um knowing that he can have sex with a knowing that he can have sex with a knowing that he can have sex with a woman, a given woman, is way more woman, a given woman, is way more woman, a given woman, is way more important for him than actually having important for him than actually having important for him than actually having sex with the woman. sex with the woman. sex with the woman. >> What's the ranking about? Mogging the >> What's the ranking about? Mogging the >> What's the ranking about? Mogging the >> mogging, the ranking. But, you know, and >> mogging, the ranking. But, you know, and >> mogging, the ranking. But, you know, and and so it's like, but wasn't sex and so it's like, but wasn't sex and so it's like, but wasn't sex supposed to be enjoyable? Especially supposed to be enjoyable? Especially supposed to be enjoyable? Especially when you're 21? I I I remember, you when you're 21? I I I remember, you when you're 21? I I I remember, you know, it took me a while until I started know, it took me a while until I started know, it took me a while until I started having sex, but when I did I was like, having sex, but when I did I was like, having sex, but when I did I was like, this is the most incredible thing that's this is the most incredible thing that's this is the most incredible thing that's ever happened to me. I don't care if I ever happened to me. I don't care if I ever happened to me. I don't care if I die tomorrow if I keep having this, you die tomorrow if I keep having this, you die tomorrow if I keep having this, you know, for the next 24 hours. This is know, for the next 24 hours. This is know, for the next 24 hours. This is this is kind of it. You know, I'll give this is kind of it. You know, I'll give this is kind of it. You know, I'll give you another example, which is a little you another example, which is a little you another example, which is a little strange, but so I've been teaching strange, but so I've been teaching strange, but so I've been teaching creative writing at Columbia for about creative writing at Columbia for about creative writing at Columbia for about 20 years now. Um 20 years now. Um 20 years now. Um and I've noticed the way and my students and I've noticed the way and my students and I've noticed the way and my students are wonderful, they write wonderfully.

are wonderful, they write wonderfully. are wonderful, they write wonderfully. The craftsmanship keeps getting better The craftsmanship keeps getting better The craftsmanship keeps getting better and better. But the things they write and better. But the things they write and better. But the things they write about have changed so drastically, you about have changed so drastically, you about have changed so drastically, you know. Um, 20 years ago in the odds, know. Um, 20 years ago in the odds, know. Um, 20 years ago in the odds, there was this kind of there was this kind of there was this kind of John Cheever bisexual energy going on John Cheever bisexual energy going on John Cheever bisexual energy going on where where where >> Explain what a John Cheever bisexual >> Explain what a John Cheever bisexual >> Explain what a John Cheever bisexual energy is. You can't You can't move that energy is. You can't You can't move that energy is. You can't You can't move that fast. fast. fast. >> Sorry. Well, >> Sorry. Well, >> Sorry. Well, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> you know, the Cheever Updike Roth era >> you know, the Cheever Updike Roth era >> you know, the Cheever Updike Roth era and I know that skews very masculine, and I know that skews very masculine, and I know that skews very masculine, right? There right? There right? There >> was you know, people wrote about sex >> was you know, people wrote about sex >> was you know, people wrote about sex now. now. now. >> Stop. I mentioned Cheever because at >> Stop. I mentioned Cheever because at >> Stop. I mentioned Cheever because at least he had a lot of you know, he was least he had a lot of you know, he was least he had a lot of you know, he was bisexual himself and there was an bisexual himself and there was an bisexual himself and there was an appreciation of appreciation of appreciation of both hetero and homosexuality. So, both hetero and homosexuality. So, both hetero and homosexuality. So, but what I'm trying to say in general is but what I'm trying to say in general is but what I'm trying to say in general is that sex was appreciated as a major life that sex was appreciated as a major life that sex was appreciated as a major life force. force. force. When I read the wonderful things that my When I read the wonderful things that my When I read the wonderful things that my students submit now, there almost is no students submit now, there almost is no students submit now, there almost is no sex and love, no love and almost no sex and love, no love and almost no sex and love, no love and almost no pleasure. You know, I have a collection pleasure. You know, I have a collection pleasure. You know, I have a collection of essays coming out in November called of essays coming out in November called of essays coming out in November called The Sensualist which is all about my The Sensualist which is all about my The Sensualist which is all about my love of love of love of pleasure but in millions of contexts. pleasure but in millions of contexts. pleasure but in millions of contexts. There's sex in there, there's food, There's sex in there, there's food, There's sex in there, there's food, there's I mean, you know, life is a there's I mean, you know, life is a there's I mean, you know, life is a endless buffet of pleasure. And this endless buffet of pleasure. And this endless buffet of pleasure. And this clavicular generation just says, "Nah, clavicular generation just says, "Nah, clavicular generation just says, "Nah, we don't want that, you know. You might we don't want that, you know. You might we don't want that, you know. You might as well be an algorithm. We just want to as well be an algorithm. We just want to as well be an algorithm. We just want to match up to all these metrics and say match up to all these metrics and say match up to all these metrics and say done, done, done, check, check, check.

done, done, done, check, check, check. done, done, done, check, check, check. We are the best. We won." We are the best. We won." We are the best. We won." And that's that. Uh, so so there And that's that. Uh, so so there And that's that. Uh, so so there >> view of where that came from? >> view of where that came from? >> view of where that came from? >> I mean, I think it's When I look at my >> I mean, I think it's When I look at my >> I mean, I think it's When I look at my students, we're talking about our place students, we're talking about our place students, we're talking about our place in the world earlier. They're unsure of in the world earlier. They're unsure of in the world earlier. They're unsure of the world's place in the world. They the world's place in the world. They the world's place in the world. They don't know what's going to happen next. don't know what's going to happen next. don't know what's going to happen next. Everything is a source of anxiety. Everything is a source of anxiety. Everything is a source of anxiety. Half of what my students write, if not Half of what my students write, if not Half of what my students write, if not more, is speculative fiction of one sort more, is speculative fiction of one sort more, is speculative fiction of one sort or another, right? or another, right? or another, right? And and the speculation isn't that, you And and the speculation isn't that, you And and the speculation isn't that, you know, we're going to be living in a know, we're going to be living in a know, we're going to be living in a utopia in 20 years. It's it's The The utopia in 20 years. It's it's The The utopia in 20 years. It's it's The The mood is The vibes, as they say, are you mood is The vibes, as they say, are you mood is The vibes, as they say, are you know, they're low-key horrible. know, they're low-key horrible. know, they're low-key horrible. It's like we've separated ourselves so It's like we've separated ourselves so It's like we've separated ourselves so much from the possibility of joy that to much from the possibility of joy that to much from the possibility of joy that to make it the subject of a book or of a make it the subject of a book or of a make it the subject of a book or of a story story story seems almost privileged. Like you don't seems almost privileged. Like you don't seems almost privileged. Like you don't want to touch that anymore. And I'm not want to touch that anymore. And I'm not want to touch that anymore. And I'm not saying that, you know, the Cheever saying that, you know, the Cheever saying that, you know, the Cheever Updike crew Updike crew Updike crew didn't write in a solipsistic way about didn't write in a solipsistic way about didn't write in a solipsistic way about whatever, you know, their own identity whatever, you know, their own identity whatever, you know, their own identity as as as wealthy white people in Scarsdale or wealthy white people in Scarsdale or wealthy white people in Scarsdale or whatever, you know, obviously there was whatever, you know, obviously there was whatever, you know, obviously there was a lot of that kind of stuff as well, but a lot of that kind of stuff as well, but a lot of that kind of stuff as well, but there was a sense that life wasn't there was a sense that life wasn't there was a sense that life wasn't entirely hopeless.

entirely hopeless. entirely hopeless. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> When I read a lot of modern literary >> When I read a lot of modern literary >> When I read a lot of modern literary fiction, the driving force to me is fiction, the driving force to me is fiction, the driving force to me is neurosis. neurosis. neurosis. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> People being anxious, being unsure, >> People being anxious, being unsure, >> People being anxious, being unsure, being self-loathing. being self-loathing. being self-loathing. I find it very, very, very depressing. I find it very, very, very depressing. I find it very, very, very depressing. Like when you describe that, right, it Like when you describe that, right, it Like when you describe that, right, it does like mid late mid-20th century male does like mid late mid-20th century male does like mid late mid-20th century male writing was very horny. writing was very horny. writing was very horny. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And like 2020s writing is very nervous. >> And like 2020s writing is very nervous. >> And like 2020s writing is very nervous. >> Yeah. Yeah, my students call this the >> Yeah. Yeah, my students call this the >> Yeah. Yeah, my students call this the sad girl novel. sad girl novel. sad girl novel. And there've been some amazing sad girl And there've been some amazing sad girl And there've been some amazing sad girl novel. The Year of Rest and Relaxation novel. The Year of Rest and Relaxation novel. The Year of Rest and Relaxation is probably is probably is probably to me it reads like a really cool, to me it reads like a really cool, to me it reads like a really cool, smart, and funny version of that. I smart, and funny version of that. I smart, and funny version of that. I think sometimes what I lack, and it not think sometimes what I lack, and it not think sometimes what I lack, and it not always, but what I kind of look for in always, but what I kind of look for in always, but what I kind of look for in the neurosis novel is a sense of the neurosis novel is a sense of the neurosis novel is a sense of is a sense of humor that almost leads is a sense of humor that almost leads is a sense of humor that almost leads you into a path of joy. You know, I you into a path of joy. You know, I you into a path of joy. You know, I teach a class called So You Want to teach a class called So You Want to teach a class called So You Want to Write Funny at Columbia. And for Write Funny at Columbia. And for Write Funny at Columbia. And for example, you know, we teach talk about example, you know, we teach talk about example, you know, we teach talk about neurosis. Like we we teach I teach neurosis. Like we we teach I teach neurosis. Like we we teach I teach Portnoy's Complaint, you know. And that Portnoy's Complaint, you know. And that Portnoy's Complaint, you know. And that is obviously it's all it's all set in a is obviously it's all it's all set in a is obviously it's all it's all set in a psychiatrist's office. It's this psychiatrist's office. It's this psychiatrist's office. It's this neurotic horny Jew. Like they don't make neurotic horny Jew. Like they don't make neurotic horny Jew. Like they don't make them anymore, right? And he's just them anymore, right? And he's just them anymore, right? And he's just you know, chomping at the bit to get out you know, chomping at the bit to get out you know, chomping at the bit to get out of his particular identity and just to of his particular identity and just to of his particular identity and just to have sex with every non-Jewish woman he have sex with every non-Jewish woman he have sex with every non-Jewish woman he can find. And that is I mean, wrong in can find. And that is I mean, wrong in can find. And that is I mean, wrong in many ways, but also really, really many ways, but also really, really many ways, but also really, really funny. The the the pursuit of it is funny. The the the pursuit of it is funny. The the the pursuit of it is very, very funny. Look, super sad is the very, very funny. Look, super sad is the very, very funny. Look, super sad is the word sad is the second part of the word sad is the second part of the word sad is the second part of the second word in the title, but I hope second word in the title, but I hope second word in the title, but I hope that that that Lenny, you know, when he that that that Lenny, you know, when he that that that Lenny, you know, when he finds the love of his life Eunice, when finds the love of his life Eunice, when finds the love of his life Eunice, when he uh out with his friends, that there's

he uh out with his friends, that there's he uh out with his friends, that there's still an avenue toward a kind of still an avenue toward a kind of still an avenue toward a kind of overwhelming feeling of contentment. overwhelming feeling of contentment. overwhelming feeling of contentment. That may go away by the next day or when That may go away by the next day or when That may go away by the next day or when the hangover uh sets in, but that is the hangover uh sets in, but that is the hangover uh sets in, but that is there at least for a while. there at least for a while. there at least for a while. >> There's a a character in Super Sad True >> There's a a character in Super Sad True >> There's a a character in Super Sad True Love Story who I think is interesting um Love Story who I think is interesting um Love Story who I think is interesting um for this conversation, which is Joshy, for this conversation, which is Joshy, for this conversation, which is Joshy, Lenny's boss. Tell me a bit about Joshy. Lenny's boss. Tell me a bit about Joshy. Lenny's boss. Tell me a bit about Joshy. >> So, Joshy is Let's see how old is Joshy. >> So, Joshy is Let's see how old is Joshy. >> So, Joshy is Let's see how old is Joshy. Well, we don't even know how old Joshy Well, we don't even know how old Joshy Well, we don't even know how old Joshy is. He could be in his 80s, but it is. He could be in his 80s, but it is. He could be in his 80s, but it doesn't matter because he is using every doesn't matter because he is using every doesn't matter because he is using every kind of um anti-aging technique kind of um anti-aging technique kind of um anti-aging technique possible. possible. possible. Joshy does not want to die. He feels And Joshy does not want to die. He feels And Joshy does not want to die. He feels And this is interesting because I think this this is interesting because I think this this is interesting because I think this is true of so many of the people that is true of so many of the people that is true of so many of the people that use this kind of technology. He feels use this kind of technology. He feels use this kind of technology. He feels that he hasn't really lived, that he that he hasn't really lived, that he that he hasn't really lived, that he hasn't really had a good life. I A lot hasn't really had a good life. I A lot hasn't really had a good life. I A lot of people I And I of people I And I of people I And I I knew I know a lot of people in, for I knew I know a lot of people in, for I knew I know a lot of people in, for example, finance because I wrote a book example, finance because I wrote a book example, finance because I wrote a book uh Lake Success that was set in the uh Lake Success that was set in the uh Lake Success that was set in the world of hedge funders, so I had to world of hedge funders, so I had to world of hedge funders, so I had to spend 4 years hanging out with them. Um spend 4 years hanging out with them. Um spend 4 years hanging out with them. Um I think s- not 100%, but so many of the I think s- not 100%, but so many of the I think s- not 100%, but so many of the ones I've met have had really ones I've met have had really ones I've met have had really unremarkably awful childhoods. And unremarkably awful childhoods. And unremarkably awful childhoods. And there's a need to somehow create the there's a need to somehow create the there's a need to somehow create the perfect life and live that life. And perfect life and live that life. And perfect life and live that life. And that life is always i- that life is always i- that life is always i- the opposite of the rearview mirror, I the opposite of the rearview mirror, I the opposite of the rearview mirror, I don't know, always in the windshield.

don't know, always in the windshield. don't know, always in the windshield. You're always looking forward to it. It You're always looking forward to it. It You're always looking forward to it. It never quite comes, but in order to reach never quite comes, but in order to reach never quite comes, but in order to reach it one day, one has to extend life it one day, one has to extend life it one day, one has to extend life almost indefinitely. I remember one of almost indefinitely. I remember one of almost indefinitely. I remember one of the first things when we emigrated to the first things when we emigrated to the first things when we emigrated to America, my parents would say about America, my parents would say about America, my parents would say about Americans, who always seemed so unhappy Americans, who always seemed so unhappy Americans, who always seemed so unhappy despite the fact that they were so much despite the fact that they were so much despite the fact that they were so much richer than us. We were living on richer than us. We were living on richer than us. We were living on government cheese for a time, you know. government cheese for a time, you know. government cheese for a time, you know. And my parents and other Russians would And my parents and other Russians would And my parents and other Russians would say, "Oni uzh s zhiru besitsya." Which say, "Oni uzh s zhiru besitsya." Which say, "Oni uzh s zhiru besitsya." Which translates very vaguely as, "They're translates very vaguely as, "They're translates very vaguely as, "They're wild with their own fats." wild with their own fats." wild with their own fats." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> They're so juicy and fat, and yet they >> They're so juicy and fat, and yet they >> They're so juicy and fat, and yet they don't know what to do with it. Just don't know what to do with it. Just don't know what to do with it. Just enjoy the fat, you know. But sometimes enjoy the fat, you know. But sometimes enjoy the fat, you know. But sometimes this greater meaning combines with this this greater meaning combines with this this greater meaning combines with this egotistical impulse to have more and egotistical impulse to have more and egotistical impulse to have more and more and more into And to not die is one more and more into And to not die is one more and more into And to not die is one of those almost Protestant kind of of those almost Protestant kind of of those almost Protestant kind of extension of everything and striving. extension of everything and striving. extension of everything and striving. Why should the striving ever end? Why should the striving ever end? Why should the striving ever end? >> Well, there's the the search for greater >> Well, there's the the search for greater >> Well, there's the the search for greater meaning, and there's where you're meaning, and there's where you're meaning, and there's where you're searching for it. I mean, one of the searching for it. I mean, one of the searching for it. I mean, one of the fundamental things about Super Sad fundamental things about Super Sad fundamental things about Super Sad and that feels like a fundamental thing and that feels like a fundamental thing and that feels like a fundamental thing of modern life is everybody's looking of modern life is everybody's looking of modern life is everybody's looking for it in a screen. for it in a screen. for it in a screen. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And you have one of the fun Phillips of >> And you have one of the fun Phillips of >> And you have one of the fun Phillips of the book is that talking to other the book is that talking to other the book is that talking to other people's called verbaling.

people's called verbaling. people's called verbaling. >> Verbaling. >> Verbaling. >> Verbaling. >> Right? You've needed to create a >> Right? You've needed to create a >> Right? You've needed to create a different linguistic category for what different linguistic category for what different linguistic category for what it is we're doing when we have it is we're doing when we have it is we're doing when we have a conversation. a conversation. a conversation. And you know, screens are made by And you know, screens are made by And you know, screens are made by corporations. corporations. corporations. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Corporations have their own incentives >> Corporations have their own incentives >> Corporations have their own incentives and their own things they're trying to and their own things they're trying to and their own things they're trying to do. do. do. And what they're trying to do is not And what they're trying to do is not And what they're trying to do is not make you happy. make you happy. make you happy. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> They're trying to make you keep coming >> They're trying to make you keep coming >> They're trying to make you keep coming back. And nothing keeps you coming back back. And nothing keeps you coming back back. And nothing keeps you coming back like a ranking. There was a funny tweet like a ranking. There was a funny tweet like a ranking. There was a funny tweet I saw today I saw today I saw today and it said, you know, Sisyphus's life and it said, you know, Sisyphus's life and it said, you know, Sisyphus's life would have been much better if every would have been much better if every would have been much better if every time he got the rock to the top, he got time he got the rock to the top, he got time he got the rock to the top, he got some points. some points. some points. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And if he could then like exchange those >> And if he could then like exchange those >> And if he could then like exchange those points for stickers. points for stickers. points for stickers. >> Yeah, stickers that you can put on the >> Yeah, stickers that you can put on the >> Yeah, stickers that you can put on the rock, right? Yeah, that'd be great. Oh rock, right? Yeah, that'd be great. Oh rock, right? Yeah, that'd be great. Oh my god, now that is that is really, my god, now that is that is really, my god, now that is that is really, really smart. really smart. really smart. >> But but so there is this real I mean, >> But but so there is this real I mean, >> But but so there is this real I mean, the way you talk about eating a bowl of the way you talk about eating a bowl of the way you talk about eating a bowl of pasta, it's it's fundamentally erotic. pasta, it's it's fundamentally erotic. pasta, it's it's fundamentally erotic. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> So often I will see like people who are >> So often I will see like people who are >> So often I will see like people who are together, they're like on some kind of a together, they're like on some kind of a together, they're like on some kind of a date, a married couple or a non-married date, a married couple or a non-married date, a married couple or a non-married couple, I don't know, and they're both couple, I don't know, and they're both couple, I don't know, and they're both looking at their phones. looking at their phones. looking at their phones. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And there is something about a very there is something about a very there is something about a very unfulfilling unfulfilling unfulfilling but very compulsive world but very compulsive world but very compulsive world >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> like beckoning >> like beckoning >> like beckoning >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> that I think is a >> that I think is a >> that I think is a an enemy of enjoyment. an enemy of enjoyment. an enemy of enjoyment. >> There's a lot in there. So, verbaling is >> There's a lot in there. So, verbaling is >> There's a lot in there. So, verbaling is very hard for members of younger very hard for members of younger very hard for members of younger generations. I know COVID messed them up generations. I know COVID messed them up generations. I know COVID messed them up as well. Obviously, people in Generation as well. Obviously, people in Generation as well. Obviously, people in Generation Alpha, my son's generation, um Alpha, my son's generation, um Alpha, my son's generation, um that didn't help, obviously, but I think that didn't help, obviously, but I think that didn't help, obviously, but I think verbaling verbaling verbaling is just well, it's it's it's it is what is just well, it's it's it's it is what is just well, it's it's it's it is what it is. Letting sounds come out of your it is. Letting sounds come out of your it is. Letting sounds come out of your mouth as communication is very hard for mouth as communication is very hard for mouth as communication is very hard for people to do, much harder than obviously people to do, much harder than obviously people to do, much harder than obviously sending emojis or shortens, you know, sending emojis or shortens, you know, sending emojis or shortens, you know, shortened text messages, etc., stuff shortened text messages, etc., stuff shortened text messages, etc., stuff like that. like that. like that. And I think it's interesting when you And I think it's interesting when you And I think it's interesting when you look at someone who is, for example, look at someone who is, for example, look at someone who is, for example, doing looksmaxing. Uh doing looksmaxing. Uh doing looksmaxing. Uh who is using a hammer, talk about the who is using a hammer, talk about the who is using a hammer, talk about the opposite of joy. This anti-enjoyment. opposite of joy. This anti-enjoyment. opposite of joy. This anti-enjoyment. You're hammering your cheekbone in to You're hammering your cheekbone in to You're hammering your cheekbone in to make it a certain metric. make it a certain metric. make it a certain metric. >> Describe what bone smashing is. >> Describe what bone smashing is. >> Describe what bone smashing is. >> Um, yeah, so bone smashing is based off >> Um, yeah, so bone smashing is based off >> Um, yeah, so bone smashing is based off uh, of Wolf's law that, you know, when uh, of Wolf's law that, you know, when uh, of Wolf's law that, you know, when you break down a a bone it grows back you break down a a bone it grows back you break down a a bone it grows back stronger.

stronger. stronger. >> And you feel like this is how you make >> And you feel like this is how you make >> And you feel like this is how you make yourself attractive to women. But the yourself attractive to women. But the yourself attractive to women. But the real way to make And this I learned this real way to make And this I learned this real way to make And this I learned this as a small furry immigrant without a as a small furry immigrant without a as a small furry immigrant without a great deal of good looks, you know. You great deal of good looks, you know. You great deal of good looks, you know. You attract women by verbaling with them and attract women by verbaling with them and attract women by verbaling with them and and saying interesting things, being an and saying interesting things, being an and saying interesting things, being an interesting human being, listening to interesting human being, listening to interesting human being, listening to them, and then getting into them, and then getting into them, and then getting into conversations with them, having any kind conversations with them, having any kind conversations with them, having any kind of charisma that allows you to actually of charisma that allows you to actually of charisma that allows you to actually interact with somebody of the opposite interact with somebody of the opposite interact with somebody of the opposite of the same sex, whatever your of the same sex, whatever your of the same sex, whatever your preference is. And this is like, no, we preference is. And this is like, no, we preference is. And this is like, no, we can't do that. We can never achieve that can't do that. We can never achieve that can't do that. We can never achieve that level of being interested in another level of being interested in another level of being interested in another person or even being interested enough person or even being interested enough person or even being interested enough in our own interiority to access that in our own interiority to access that in our own interiority to access that kind of level of interaction. So, we're kind of level of interaction. So, we're kind of level of interaction. So, we're just going to It's hammer time. We're just going to It's hammer time. We're just going to It's hammer time. We're going to get that hammer and just chisel going to get that hammer and just chisel going to get that hammer and just chisel ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. >> There's been a fascinating recent trend >> There's been a fascinating recent trend >> There's been a fascinating recent trend among Silicon Valley types where they're among Silicon Valley types where they're among Silicon Valley types where they're on a tear against interiority. on a tear against interiority. on a tear against interiority. Um, you have Mark Andreessen talking Um, you have Mark Andreessen talking Um, you have Mark Andreessen talking about how he doesn't want to to to have about how he doesn't want to to to have about how he doesn't want to to to have interiority. He doesn't want to have interiority. He doesn't want to have interiority. He doesn't want to have introspection, which he described as introspection, which he described as introspection, which he described as looking backwards, which not quite what looking backwards, which not quite what looking backwards, which not quite what it is, but nevertheless. it is, but nevertheless. it is, but nevertheless. >> You said something that I love and I >> You said something that I love and I >> You said something that I love and I never hear other entrepreneurs think never hear other entrepreneurs think never hear other entrepreneurs think about talk about, but I think it's super about talk about, but I think it's super about talk about, but I think it's super important, that you don't have any important, that you don't have any important, that you don't have any levels of introspection.

levels of introspection. levels of introspection. >> Yes, zero. As little as possible. >> Yes, zero. As little as possible. >> Yes, zero. As little as possible. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> You move forward. Go. >> You move forward. Go. >> You move forward. Go. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I just have Yeah, I don't I don't know. I just have Yeah, I don't I don't know. I just have fun people who dwell on the past get fun people who dwell on the past get fun people who dwell on the past get stuck in the past. It's It's just It's a stuck in the past. It's It's just It's a stuck in the past. It's It's just It's a real problem and it's a It's a problem real problem and it's a It's a problem real problem and it's a It's a problem at work and it's a problem at home. at work and it's a problem at home. at work and it's a problem at home. >> And I've been trying to think on this >> And I've been trying to think on this >> And I've been trying to think on this because I I mean, these are smart because I I mean, these are smart because I I mean, these are smart people, right? And people, right? And people, right? And I do think it I do think it I do think it is in some ways a If I'm being maximally is in some ways a If I'm being maximally is in some ways a If I'm being maximally generous, it is in some ways a reaction generous, it is in some ways a reaction generous, it is in some ways a reaction to what I was talking about a minute to what I was talking about a minute to what I was talking about a minute ago, where a lot of modern intellectual ago, where a lot of modern intellectual ago, where a lot of modern intellectual culture is very neurotic and very culture is very neurotic and very culture is very neurotic and very anxious and is endlessly displaying how anxious and is endlessly displaying how anxious and is endlessly displaying how anxious it is. And anxious it is. And anxious it is. And but then you go all the way to the other but then you go all the way to the other but then you go all the way to the other side to where you're not thinking side to where you're not thinking side to where you're not thinking in a deep way about yourself at all and in a deep way about yourself at all and in a deep way about yourself at all and not trying to self-understand at all and not trying to self-understand at all and not trying to self-understand at all and that is the opposite that is the opposite that is the opposite problem and dysfunction. problem and dysfunction. problem and dysfunction. >> Right. Right. Yeah, that's a very >> Right. Right. Yeah, that's a very >> Right. Right. Yeah, that's a very interesting way and I think a a correct interesting way and I think a a correct interesting way and I think a a correct way to put it. There's a lot of way to put it. There's a lot of way to put it. There's a lot of interesting things about who these interesting things about who these interesting things about who these people are and this may seem a little people are and this may seem a little people are and this may seem a little out there but I would say that you can't out there but I would say that you can't out there but I would say that you can't look at people like Musk and not think look at people like Musk and not think look at people like Musk and not think of of of neurodivergence but also neurodivergence neurodivergence but also neurodivergence neurodivergence but also neurodivergence combined with terrible parenting.

combined with terrible parenting. combined with terrible parenting. Now you have somebody like Elon, right, Now you have somebody like Elon, right, Now you have somebody like Elon, right, who obviously is proclaims to be who obviously is proclaims to be who obviously is proclaims to be neurodivergent who was raised by neurodivergent who was raised by neurodivergent who was raised by possibly the worst father this side of possibly the worst father this side of possibly the worst father this side of Woody Allen. I mean, so you have someone Woody Allen. I mean, so you have someone Woody Allen. I mean, so you have someone who obviously cannot deal with somebody who obviously cannot deal with somebody who obviously cannot deal with somebody with special needs with special needs with special needs and at the same time somebody who and at the same time somebody who and at the same time somebody who possesses all of the gifts that those possesses all of the gifts that those possesses all of the gifts that those special needs special needs special needs in the case of neurodivergence give in the case of neurodivergence give in the case of neurodivergence give them. them. them. >> I think when I was I don't know, five or >> I think when I was I don't know, five or >> I think when I was I don't know, five or six or something, I thought I was six or something, I thought I was six or something, I thought I was insane. insane. insane. >> Why did you think you were insane? >> Why did you think you were insane? >> Why did you think you were insane? >> Because it was clear that other people >> Because it was clear that other people >> Because it was clear that other people did not did not did not what their mind wasn't exploding with what their mind wasn't exploding with what their mind wasn't exploding with ideas all the time. ideas all the time. ideas all the time. >> They weren't expressing it. They weren't >> They weren't expressing it. They weren't >> They weren't expressing it. They weren't talking about it all the time and you talking about it all the time and you talking about it all the time and you realized by the time you were five or realized by the time you were five or realized by the time you were five or six like, oh, they're probably not even six like, oh, they're probably not even six like, oh, they're probably not even getting this thing that I'm getting. >> No. >> No. It was just strange. It was just strange. It was just strange. It was like It was like It was like Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I'm strange. I'm strange. I'm strange. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That was my conclusion. I'm strange. >> That was my conclusion. I'm strange. >> That was my conclusion. I'm strange. >> So you have this strange combination >> So you have this strange combination >> So you have this strange combination where it's not it's somewhere in growing where it's not it's somewhere in growing where it's not it's somewhere in growing up these people were not given the up these people were not given the up these people were not given the opportunity by the school system, by opportunity by the school system, by opportunity by the school system, by their parents, by relatives to look their parents, by relatives to look their parents, by relatives to look inwards. Looking inwards was considered inwards. Looking inwards was considered inwards. Looking inwards was considered something so wrong that there was never something so wrong that there was never something so wrong that there was never a skill developed for it.

a skill developed for it. a skill developed for it. >> Let me go back to the the the Mark >> Let me go back to the the the Mark >> Let me go back to the the the Mark Andreessen to the world because I think Andreessen to the world because I think Andreessen to the world because I think what they might say on your riff on Elon what they might say on your riff on Elon what they might say on your riff on Elon Musk there Musk there Musk there is and Musk hates his father to to to is and Musk hates his father to to to is and Musk hates his father to to to note that here. But listen, it created note that here. But listen, it created note that here. But listen, it created the greatest industrialist of our age, the greatest industrialist of our age, the greatest industrialist of our age, the richest man in the world, the guy the richest man in the world, the guy the richest man in the world, the guy who is able to put reusable rockets in who is able to put reusable rockets in who is able to put reusable rockets in space. space. space. Isn't that success? Isn't that what Isn't that success? Isn't that what Isn't that success? Isn't that what humanity needs to go forward even if the humanity needs to go forward even if the humanity needs to go forward even if the New York writerly class literary class New York writerly class literary class New York writerly class literary class doesn't like it. doesn't like it. doesn't like it. >> Let me tell you this, I do think that >> Let me tell you this, I do think that >> Let me tell you this, I do think that space colonization really is not space colonization really is not space colonization really is not something I'm terribly interested in. I something I'm terribly interested in. I something I'm terribly interested in. I don't think going to Mars is going to don't think going to Mars is going to don't think going to Mars is going to answer any of our problems. I don't answer any of our problems. I don't answer any of our problems. I don't think we'll ever live on the kind of think we'll ever live on the kind of think we'll ever live on the kind of scale we live in. You know, we have a scale we live in. You know, we have a scale we live in. You know, we have a really nice planet here which we're really nice planet here which we're really nice planet here which we're destroying. We really don't need to destroying. We really don't need to destroying. We really don't need to discover, you know, the marvels of discover, you know, the marvels of discover, you know, the marvels of Mercury anytime soon, right? Mercury anytime soon, right? Mercury anytime soon, right? So a lot of this is complete [ __ ] as So a lot of this is complete [ __ ] as So a lot of this is complete [ __ ] as far as I'm concerned. That part of it, far as I'm concerned. That part of it, far as I'm concerned. That part of it, right? Now of course electric cars etc. right? Now of course electric cars etc. right? Now of course electric cars etc. all that stuff is very good and and if all that stuff is very good and and if all that stuff is very good and and if anything that Musk did that was good was anything that Musk did that was good was anything that Musk did that was good was Tesla which now will be probably brought Tesla which now will be probably brought Tesla which now will be probably brought to scale by Chinese automakers, right? to scale by Chinese automakers, right? to scale by Chinese automakers, right? That will make it cheaper and possibly That will make it cheaper and possibly That will make it cheaper and possibly better at some point. But when I look at better at some point. But when I look at better at some point. But when I look at what the great industrialists of the what the great industrialists of the what the great industrialists of the world have given us world have given us world have given us lately and lately and lately and is it that is it that is it that have the have the have the last 26 25 years 30 years have they been last 26 25 years 30 years have they been last 26 25 years 30 years have they been really that great in terms of just life?

really that great in terms of just life? really that great in terms of just life? Let me let me bring it down. I know that Let me let me bring it down. I know that Let me let me bring it down. I know that perhaps if you're living somewhere if perhaps if you're living somewhere if perhaps if you're living somewhere if you're living in Kenya far away from you're living in Kenya far away from you're living in Kenya far away from Nairobi and you have a cell phone a new Nairobi and you have a cell phone a new Nairobi and you have a cell phone a new technology, right? That's really helping technology, right? That's really helping technology, right? That's really helping you in a way that not having a cell you in a way that not having a cell you in a way that not having a cell phone would have hurt you 30 years ago. phone would have hurt you 30 years ago. phone would have hurt you 30 years ago. But at the same time But at the same time But at the same time this is not a happy life wrought by this is not a happy life wrought by this is not a happy life wrought by these wonderful industrialists who these wonderful industrialists who these wonderful industrialists who create screens and algorithms that make create screens and algorithms that make create screens and algorithms that make us you know us you know us you know that have destroyed my life to a very that have destroyed my life to a very that have destroyed my life to a very large extent. I write at a much slower large extent. I write at a much slower large extent. I write at a much slower clip. I don't write as introspectively clip. I don't write as introspectively clip. I don't write as introspectively as I used to. as I used to. as I used to. I am as addicted to and by the way I am as addicted to and by the way I am as addicted to and by the way please follow me at Steingart on Twitter please follow me at Steingart on Twitter please follow me at Steingart on Twitter Instagram Blue Sky Substack. I mean it Instagram Blue Sky Substack. I mean it Instagram Blue Sky Substack. I mean it never ends, right? This this never ends. never ends, right? This this never ends. never ends, right? This this never ends. So So So >> Why are you on them then? >> Why are you on them then? >> Why are you on them then? >> Well it's it's part of the marketing you >> Well it's it's part of the marketing you >> Well it's it's part of the marketing you know you know you know you absolutely it helps. You're a big deal absolutely it helps. You're a big deal absolutely it helps. You're a big deal man. Do you actually need to be there? man. Do you actually need to be there? man. Do you actually need to be there? I still need it. Everyone needs it. But I still need it. Everyone needs it. But I still need it. Everyone needs it. But the point and I do get that dopamine the point and I do get that dopamine the point and I do get that dopamine kick from it. Yeah, I think that's the kick from it. Yeah, I think that's the kick from it. Yeah, I think that's the more honest answer right there. Both more honest answer right there. Both more honest answer right there. Both both both profit and dopamine. Let me both both profit and dopamine. Let me both both profit and dopamine. Let me say this, when I started writing Super say this, when I started writing Super say this, when I started writing Super Sad Sad Sad the odds mid odds, I didn't know much the odds mid odds, I didn't know much the odds mid odds, I didn't know much about this technology. But I had this about this technology. But I had this about this technology. But I had this great intern and he got me into he was great intern and he got me into he was great intern and he got me into he was very young into Facebook and it was very young into Facebook and it was very young into Facebook and it was called called called MySpace I think was the thing, right?

MySpace I think was the thing, right? MySpace I think was the thing, right? And the moment I got on it I thought And the moment I got on it I thought And the moment I got on it I thought this is this was the germ of Super Sad. this is this was the germ of Super Sad. this is this was the germ of Super Sad. I thought this technology is going to I thought this technology is going to I thought this technology is going to destroy everything. Why did you think destroy everything. Why did you think destroy everything. Why did you think that? Because I knew look, when you're a that? Because I knew look, when you're a that? Because I knew look, when you're a writer or an artist you are a part of a writer or an artist you are a part of a writer or an artist you are a part of a narcissist, right? You are partly at narcissist, right? You are partly at narcissist, right? You are partly at least a narcissist because what do you least a narcissist because what do you least a narcissist because what do you do this for? You don't just do this do this for? You don't just do this do this for? You don't just do this There was a great way of putting in the There was a great way of putting in the There was a great way of putting in the Soviet Union when people were writing Soviet Union when people were writing Soviet Union when people were writing things that the system would hate so things that the system would hate so things that the system would hate so much that you knew you could never much that you knew you could never much that you knew you could never publish it. It was called pisat' v stol publish it. It was called pisat' v stol publish it. It was called pisat' v stol to write into your desk literally. That to write into your desk literally. That to write into your desk literally. That is the highest level of writing, right? is the highest level of writing, right? is the highest level of writing, right? Because nobody will see it. Because nobody will see it. Because nobody will see it. But I did not want to write into my But I did not want to write into my But I did not want to write into my desk. I wanted the world I was this like desk. I wanted the world I was this like desk. I wanted the world I was this like I said small furry immigrant strange I said small furry immigrant strange I said small furry immigrant strange sense of self. I wanted people to read sense of self. I wanted people to read sense of self. I wanted people to read my books and say, "Oh, look at this." my books and say, "Oh, look at this." my books and say, "Oh, look at this." Oh, these people exist too, you know. Oh, these people exist too, you know. Oh, these people exist too, you know. But when I saw MySpace and Facebook I But when I saw MySpace and Facebook I But when I saw MySpace and Facebook I thought everyone's a writer now. There thought everyone's a writer now. There thought everyone's a writer now. There are no barriers. Now, on the one hand are no barriers. Now, on the one hand are no barriers. Now, on the one hand that sounds great. Woo, more democracy that sounds great. Woo, more democracy that sounds great. Woo, more democracy than ever, right? Everyone's now is is than ever, right? Everyone's now is is than ever, right? Everyone's now is is is whatever is is Aristotle or is whatever is is Aristotle or is whatever is is Aristotle or everyone will express themselves. But everyone will express themselves. But everyone will express themselves. But then then then I lived for about half a year a year I lived for about half a year a year I lived for about half a year a year more on those platforms and I thought more on those platforms and I thought more on those platforms and I thought this is just garbage. We're on this all this is just garbage. We're on this all this is just garbage. We're on this all the time. Half of what I read are the time. Half of what I read are the time. Half of what I read are complete lies. Lies seem to get more complete lies. Lies seem to get more complete lies. Lies seem to get more clicks. I'm now addicted to this to the clicks. I'm now addicted to this to the clicks. I'm now addicted to this to the point where it's hard for me to start point where it's hard for me to start point where it's hard for me to start reading and finishing a book. What's the reading and finishing a book. What's the reading and finishing a book. What's the and books are the best way to get inside and books are the best way to get inside and books are the best way to get inside into interiority because what is a book?

into interiority because what is a book? into interiority because what is a book? It's a communication between one It's a communication between one It's a communication between one consciousness and and another. I love consciousness and and another. I love consciousness and and another. I love film and theater and TV and all this film and theater and TV and all this film and theater and TV and all this other stuff, but this is the fastest other stuff, but this is the fastest other stuff, but this is the fastest this is like a mind melding Vulcan this is like a mind melding Vulcan this is like a mind melding Vulcan technology you're in somebody else's technology you're in somebody else's technology you're in somebody else's head and somebody who's completely head and somebody who's completely head and somebody who's completely different from you hopefully. So, when I different from you hopefully. So, when I different from you hopefully. So, when I started using that I thought that this started using that I thought that this started using that I thought that this would be a problem for personalities would be a problem for personalities would be a problem for personalities especially personalities like mine and especially personalities like mine and especially personalities like mine and and for the rest of society. and for the rest of society. and for the rest of society. >> I I'm very influenced by this thing Ryan >> I I'm very influenced by this thing Ryan >> I I'm very influenced by this thing Ryan Broderick has said who's a internet Broderick has said who's a internet Broderick has said who's a internet writer. He talks about it as a porn writer. He talks about it as a porn writer. He talks about it as a porn theory of the internet theory of the internet theory of the internet >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that all content now at least all the >> that all content now at least all the >> that all content now at least all the content on places like Tik Tok and content on places like Tik Tok and content on places like Tik Tok and Instagram Instagram Instagram what it's doing is creating an instant what it's doing is creating an instant what it's doing is creating an instant surge of sensation. Right? I see this surge of sensation. Right? I see this surge of sensation. Right? I see this even when we're creating like clips from even when we're creating like clips from even when we're creating like clips from the show we needed to make you feel the show we needed to make you feel the show we needed to make you feel something immediately. something immediately. something immediately. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It's like the way like porn evolved on >> It's like the way like porn evolved on >> It's like the way like porn evolved on the internet but but now it's like you the internet but but now it's like you the internet but but now it's like you know, people like you know, pulling know, people like you know, pulling know, people like you know, pulling apart cheese sandwiches and apart cheese sandwiches and apart cheese sandwiches and >> Right? Like you got to feel angry or >> Right? Like you got to feel angry or >> Right? Like you got to feel angry or curious or hungry or something curious or hungry or something curious or hungry or something immediately. immediately. immediately. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm I mean you're again like writing >> And I'm I mean you're again like writing >> And I'm I mean you're again like writing this some time ago this some time ago this some time ago there's a section in the book where there's a section in the book where there's a section in the book where Lenny is reading it Lenny is reading it Lenny is reading it from a from a from a the unbearable lightness of being to to the unbearable lightness of being to to the unbearable lightness of being to to Eunice Eunice Eunice and book by Milan Kundera and you write and book by Milan Kundera and you write and book by Milan Kundera and you write or he he says he writes in the book I or he he says he writes in the book I or he he says he writes in the book I felt that Kundera had put too many words felt that Kundera had put too many words felt that Kundera had put too many words on the fetish for her to gain what her on the fetish for her to gain what her on the fetish for her to gain what her generation required from any form of generation required from any form of generation required from any form of content content content a ready surge of excitement a temporary a ready surge of excitement a temporary a ready surge of excitement a temporary lease on satisfaction.

lease on satisfaction. lease on satisfaction. I mean now you hear everybody talking I mean now you hear everybody talking I mean now you hear everybody talking about how like kids can't follow along about how like kids can't follow along about how like kids can't follow along book anymore everything is too long. I book anymore everything is too long. I book anymore everything is too long. I mean that's all really there in that mean that's all really there in that mean that's all really there in that book. So, as somebody writes books book. So, as somebody writes books book. So, as somebody writes books somebody who's clearly thought about somebody who's clearly thought about somebody who's clearly thought about this a lot how do you think about what this a lot how do you think about what this a lot how do you think about what it is doing to us as a country as a it is doing to us as a country as a it is doing to us as a country as a collective as a world collective as a world collective as a world when we get sort of when we get sort of when we get sort of trained to expect that the things we see trained to expect that the things we see trained to expect that the things we see will immediately create will immediately create will immediately create a reaction a sensation. a reaction a sensation. a reaction a sensation. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> As opposed to something we have to >> As opposed to something we have to >> As opposed to something we have to follow along and interpret ourselves. follow along and interpret ourselves. follow along and interpret ourselves. >> I have now started >> I have now started >> I have now started putting I putting I putting I realized that if I post something on realized that if I post something on realized that if I post something on Instagram at Stein Greg Instagram at Stein Greg Instagram at Stein Greg if I post something on Instagram, if I post something on Instagram, if I post something on Instagram, I and then I start reading something, I and then I start reading something, I and then I start reading something, it's impossible. it's impossible. it's impossible. Because I will every two pages, even if Because I will every two pages, even if Because I will every two pages, even if I'm reading the most incredible I was I'm reading the most incredible I was I'm reading the most incredible I was reading this incredible New York New reading this incredible New York New reading this incredible New York New Yorker article about Yorker article about Yorker article about Ukraine. Ukraine obviously is a subject Ukraine. Ukraine obviously is a subject Ukraine. Ukraine obviously is a subject that I'm I'm very involved with and that I'm I'm very involved with and that I'm I'm very involved with and I couldn't every three five minutes. I couldn't every three five minutes. I couldn't every three five minutes. Well, who liked that? Oh, oh look at Well, who liked that? Oh, oh look at Well, who liked that? Oh, oh look at that. I thought this person never liked that. I thought this person never liked that. I thought this person never liked me, but I guess they like me. Oh, me, but I guess they like me. Oh, me, but I guess they like me. Oh, someone recently liked this. Wow, life someone recently liked this. Wow, life someone recently liked this. Wow, life is really good. Uh I mean, do I think is really good. Uh I mean, do I think is really good. Uh I mean, do I think that there's a future in long-form that there's a future in long-form that there's a future in long-form fiction? I think it's going to be very fiction? I think it's going to be very fiction? I think it's going to be very much a much a much a speaking of fetish, like a very small speaking of fetish, like a very small speaking of fetish, like a very small tiny group of people that do this tiny group of people that do this tiny group of people that do this and most people simply will not have and most people simply will not have and most people simply will not have Even today, I think something like 47% Even today, I think something like 47% Even today, I think something like 47% of Americans have read a full-length of Americans have read a full-length of Americans have read a full-length book in the last year. So, this is book in the last year. So, this is book in the last year. So, this is obviously going to be a very minority obviously going to be a very minority obviously going to be a very minority position. But when I write myself, I position. But when I write myself, I position. But when I write myself, I What do people in California call it What do people in California call it What do people in California call it in Silicon Valley call it the end user

in Silicon Valley call it the end user in Silicon Valley call it the end user experience? Like I I experience? Like I I experience? Like I I For me, because I hope I write funny. I For me, because I hope I write funny. I For me, because I hope I write funny. I I think the humor is the thing that I think the humor is the thing that I think the humor is the thing that gives you that little hit. It keeps the gives you that little hit. It keeps the gives you that little hit. It keeps the reader hopefully somewhat attached to reader hopefully somewhat attached to reader hopefully somewhat attached to the page. the page. the page. So, this is this interesting thing, So, this is this interesting thing, So, this is this interesting thing, right? Like does does writing have to I right? Like does does writing have to I right? Like does does writing have to I don't know. Will we have books that don't know. Will we have books that don't know. Will we have books that explode while you read them in order to explode while you read them in order to explode while you read them in order to get your attention in the future? That get your attention in the future? That get your attention in the future? That could be a great technology or it could be a great technology or it could be a great technology or it releases a plume of releases a plume of releases a plume of smoke or something. So, like, oh yeah, smoke or something. So, like, oh yeah, smoke or something. So, like, oh yeah, right right. I got to get back to this. right right. I got to get back to this. right right. I got to get back to this. >> There's an interesting tension around >> There's an interesting tension around >> There's an interesting tension around that in the book because one of the that in the book because one of the that in the book because one of the other main characters is Eunice who is a other main characters is Eunice who is a other main characters is Eunice who is a much younger partner of Lenny. much younger partner of Lenny. much younger partner of Lenny. And And And Lenny is a a writer and a reader and he Lenny is a a writer and a reader and he Lenny is a a writer and a reader and he has actual physical books, which is a has actual physical books, which is a has actual physical books, which is a bit of a gauche thing to have in that bit of a gauche thing to have in that bit of a gauche thing to have in that world and they smell bad and they smell world and they smell bad and they smell world and they smell bad and they smell musty. musty. musty. >> And you know, not to spoil too much of >> And you know, not to spoil too much of >> And you know, not to spoil too much of any any of the book, but but at the end any any of the book, but but at the end any any of the book, but but at the end when some of their communication with when some of their communication with when some of their communication with each other has been discovered by each other has been discovered by each other has been discovered by others, others, others, it's Eunice who is considered like the it's Eunice who is considered like the it's Eunice who is considered like the great writer and she is internet adult.

great writer and she is internet adult. great writer and she is internet adult. Everybody is texting on a service called Everybody is texting on a service called Everybody is texting on a service called Global Teens, which is very funny. Global Teens, which is very funny. Global Teens, which is very funny. But I actually thought that too. When But I actually thought that too. When But I actually thought that too. When you're reading it, like her writing is you're reading it, like her writing is you're reading it, like her writing is much more, in a way, vivid because it is much more, in a way, vivid because it is much more, in a way, vivid because it is less self-conscious, right? You can you less self-conscious, right? You can you less self-conscious, right? You can you can read Lenny writing to be read. I can read Lenny writing to be read. I can read Lenny writing to be read. I mean, there's nothing worse than reading mean, there's nothing worse than reading mean, there's nothing worse than reading the journal entries of somebody who the journal entries of somebody who the journal entries of somebody who wrote a journal hoping somebody would wrote a journal hoping somebody would wrote a journal hoping somebody would want to read their journal entries. And want to read their journal entries. And want to read their journal entries. And you can I mean, those get released a you can I mean, those get released a you can I mean, those get released a lot, right? lot, right? lot, right? >> Oh yeah. Oh my god, that's half of >> Oh yeah. Oh my god, that's half of >> Oh yeah. Oh my god, that's half of literature. literature. literature. >> That's half of literature. And there's a >> That's half of literature. And there's a >> That's half of literature. And there's a lot of life in uh the the writing that lot of life in uh the the writing that lot of life in uh the the writing that comes without that self-consciousness. comes without that self-consciousness. comes without that self-consciousness. >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, this is Sorry, I keep talking about the this is Sorry, I keep talking about the this is Sorry, I keep talking about the craft of writing, but I I hopefully craft of writing, but I I hopefully craft of writing, but I I hopefully uh listeners won't mind, but it's this uh listeners won't mind, but it's this uh listeners won't mind, but it's this idea, you know, when we start teaching a idea, you know, when we start teaching a idea, you know, when we start teaching a workshop, what I'm looking for in the workshop, what I'm looking for in the workshop, what I'm looking for in the first paragraph, the first page, the first paragraph, the first page, the first paragraph, the first page, the first chapter, is a sense that there's a first chapter, is a sense that there's a first chapter, is a sense that there's a really active voice that's unlike any really active voice that's unlike any really active voice that's unlike any other voice I've read before, and that other voice I've read before, and that other voice I've read before, and that is has something to declare that's so is has something to declare that's so is has something to declare that's so desperate to declare.

desperate to declare. desperate to declare. Uh they need to do this or or they won't Uh they need to do this or or they won't Uh they need to do this or or they won't survive in some way. That's maybe survive in some way. That's maybe survive in some way. That's maybe overstating the case, but some sense of overstating the case, but some sense of overstating the case, but some sense of that kind of, you know, call me Ishmael. that kind of, you know, call me Ishmael. that kind of, you know, call me Ishmael. You know, you can't you can't look away You know, you can't you can't look away You know, you can't you can't look away from that. And yeah, Lenny's voice uh from that. And yeah, Lenny's voice uh from that. And yeah, Lenny's voice uh Lenny is almost in some ways a kind of Lenny is almost in some ways a kind of Lenny is almost in some ways a kind of uh he thinks of himself as being very uh he thinks of himself as being very uh he thinks of himself as being very literary. He's actually not a writer per literary. He's actually not a writer per literary. He's actually not a writer per se, you know, but he thinks of himself se, you know, but he thinks of himself se, you know, but he thinks of himself as journaling a lot, and so he, as journaling a lot, and so he, as journaling a lot, and so he, you know, a lot of what he writes is you know, a lot of what he writes is you know, a lot of what he writes is very much meant for a certain kind of very much meant for a certain kind of very much meant for a certain kind of it's meant for a certain kind of it's meant for a certain kind of it's meant for a certain kind of Brooklyn reader or Brookline mass Brooklyn reader or Brookline mass Brooklyn reader or Brookline mass reader, let's say. reader, let's say. reader, let's say. Uh whereas Eunice is What I loved about Uh whereas Eunice is What I loved about Uh whereas Eunice is What I loved about writing Eunice was that Eunice was She writing Eunice was that Eunice was She writing Eunice was that Eunice was She wrote in this completely Global Teens wrote in this completely Global Teens wrote in this completely Global Teens way. Everything she's buying this, she's way. Everything she's buying this, she's way. Everything she's buying this, she's buying that, she's buying clothes, she's buying that, she's buying clothes, she's buying that, she's buying clothes, she's she's looks maxing in her own way. she's looks maxing in her own way. she's looks maxing in her own way. And at the same time, And at the same time, And at the same time, she has an ability, especially as the she has an ability, especially as the she has an ability, especially as the novel continues, to look more inwards novel continues, to look more inwards novel continues, to look more inwards and to see and to see and to see the dichotomy between what the society the dichotomy between what the society the dichotomy between what the society wants from her and what she wants to be. wants from her and what she wants to be. wants from her and what she wants to be. >> One of the things, going back to the the >> One of the things, going back to the the >> One of the things, going back to the the subject of Clavicular, subject of Clavicular, subject of Clavicular, is I find him to be a very tragic is I find him to be a very tragic is I find him to be a very tragic figure. Doesn't seem happy to me.

figure. Doesn't seem happy to me. figure. Doesn't seem happy to me. Like I just saw pictures of him uh after Like I just saw pictures of him uh after Like I just saw pictures of him uh after getting a rhinoplasty, a nose getting a rhinoplasty, a nose getting a rhinoplasty, a nose job. His nose seemed fine to me before. job. His nose seemed fine to me before. job. His nose seemed fine to me before. And he just like is miserable in their And he just like is miserable in their And he just like is miserable in their wheelchair and has like, you know, kind wheelchair and has like, you know, kind wheelchair and has like, you know, kind of like small legs around him and people of like small legs around him and people of like small legs around him and people are making fun of them on the internet. are making fun of them on the internet. are making fun of them on the internet. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> And you just think like >> And you just think like >> And you just think like this guy has achieved a level of social this guy has achieved a level of social this guy has achieved a level of social notoriety that is remarkable. I mean, notoriety that is remarkable. I mean, notoriety that is remarkable. I mean, most successful streamer of the age. most successful streamer of the age. most successful streamer of the age. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And how much happier he would probably >> And how much happier he would probably >> And how much happier he would probably be if he had never touched it. And like be if he had never touched it. And like be if he had never touched it. And like look, I'm not in there, but but I like look, I'm not in there, but but I like look, I'm not in there, but but I like this is not good for people to be this is not good for people to be this is not good for people to be putting that much of their lives putting that much of their lives putting that much of their lives forward, to have so little backstage in forward, to have so little backstage in forward, to have so little backstage in their own mind. their own mind. their own mind. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And you're writing there about a world >> And you're writing there about a world >> And you're writing there about a world in which this has become very, very in which this has become very, very in which this has become very, very common. common. common. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And one of the things that I see in our >> And one of the things that I see in our >> And one of the things that I see in our world is that this has become very, very world is that this has become very, very world is that this has become very, very common. Everybody, you know, the number common. Everybody, you know, the number common. Everybody, you know, the number of people with a brand, everybody, you of people with a brand, everybody, you of people with a brand, everybody, you know, on TikTok. know, on TikTok. know, on TikTok. And I wonder what you think it And I wonder what you think it And I wonder what you think it does to people when they keep offering does to people when they keep offering does to people when they keep offering up things that are so cherished to them, up things that are so cherished to them, up things that are so cherished to them, right? Like and important and that right? Like and important and that right? Like and important and that they're insecure about, right? How do I they're insecure about, right? How do I they're insecure about, right? How do I look? Am I loved? Am I successful? Who look? Am I loved? Am I successful? Who look? Am I loved? Am I successful? Who am I? And they keep giving it am I? And they keep giving it am I? And they keep giving it >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> out to the public >> out to the public >> out to the public >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and saying, "What do you think? What do >> and saying, "What do you think? What do >> and saying, "What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think?" you think?" you think?" And then they're dependent on what the And then they're dependent on what the And then they're dependent on what the people around them think. people around them think. people around them think. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, since I'm mid-Gen >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, since I'm mid-Gen >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, since I'm mid-Gen X, we grew up sitting around bars X, we grew up sitting around bars X, we grew up sitting around bars talking to each other, counseling each talking to each other, counseling each talking to each other, counseling each other, helping each other. Everybody had other, helping each other. Everybody had other, helping each other. Everybody had different things they could do. You different things they could do. You different things they could do. You know, one friend could really write a know, one friend could really write a know, one friend could really write a great CV, another friend could do great CV, another friend could do great CV, another friend could do something else really well for you. You something else really well for you. You something else really well for you. You You We really were a small village onto You We really were a small village onto You We really were a small village onto ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. It was just It was just It was just wonderful. Did we get into fights? Yes, wonderful. Did we get into fights? Yes, wonderful. Did we get into fights? Yes, and breakups, etc. All this stuff, but and breakups, etc. All this stuff, but and breakups, etc. All this stuff, but we were still a wonderful unit. I don't we were still a wonderful unit. I don't we were still a wonderful unit. I don't think these people have that on that think these people have that on that think these people have that on that level. level. level. What our society has done, what these What our society has done, what these What our society has done, what these platforms have done have done is that platforms have done have done is that platforms have done have done is that they have made being mentally ill a very they have made being mentally ill a very they have made being mentally ill a very profitable thing, being openly mentally profitable thing, being openly mentally profitable thing, being openly mentally ill ill ill a profitable thing, and I think that a profitable thing, and I think that a profitable thing, and I think that reaches up to our commander-in-chief, reaches up to our commander-in-chief, reaches up to our commander-in-chief, you know, there is this sense that you know, there is this sense that you know, there is this sense that uh if you flaunt the fact that you are uh if you flaunt the fact that you are uh if you flaunt the fact that you are you don't know what you're doing, you're you don't know what you're doing, you're you don't know what you're doing, you're completely out of it, uh but you do it completely out of it, uh but you do it completely out of it, uh but you do it in this way that combines humor and in this way that combines humor and in this way that combines humor and trolling and all this kind of stuff. It trolling and all this kind of stuff. It trolling and all this kind of stuff. It you know, it's almost like a you know, it's almost like a you know, it's almost like a carnivalesque atmosphere. Look, I'm carnivalesque atmosphere. Look, I'm carnivalesque atmosphere. Look, I'm completely crazy. I'm beating myself up completely crazy. I'm beating myself up completely crazy. I'm beating myself up with a hammer, you know. And people will with a hammer, you know. And people will with a hammer, you know. And people will pay for that. They will pay for that. Uh pay for that. They will pay for that. Uh pay for that. They will pay for that. Uh but what happens to that person is but what happens to that person is but what happens to that person is nobody cares, right? If tomorrow he nobody cares, right? If tomorrow he nobody cares, right? If tomorrow he OD'd, you know, I don't think even his OD'd, you know, I don't think even his OD'd, you know, I don't think even his followers would care. They'd be like, followers would care. They'd be like, followers would care. They'd be like, "Okay, that that was interesting, you "Okay, that that was interesting, you "Okay, that that was interesting, you know. I'm going to I'm going to find know. I'm going to I'm going to find know. I'm going to I'm going to find someone else who beats his you know, his someone else who beats his you know, his someone else who beats his you know, his nose with a hammer or whatever."

nose with a hammer or whatever." nose with a hammer or whatever." >> That's interesting, and and a very grim >> That's interesting, and and a very grim >> That's interesting, and and a very grim way to put it. Like that these way to put it. Like that these way to put it. Like that these relationships that they feel real, but relationships that they feel real, but relationships that they feel real, but they're not they're not they're not >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> real. They're not real. >> real. They're not real. >> real. They're not real. They're not real. And again, people will They're not real. And again, people will They're not real. And again, people will say, "Well, Jerry, you know, say, "Well, Jerry, you know, say, "Well, Jerry, you know, or these the Horowitzes or these or these the Horowitzes or these or these the Horowitzes or these industrialists will say, 'But Jerry, industrialists will say, 'But Jerry, industrialists will say, 'But Jerry, you're living in the past, you know, you're living in the past, you know, you're living in the past, you know, society moves on.' And in fact, if you society moves on.' And in fact, if you society moves on.' And in fact, if you think social media did anything think social media did anything think social media did anything uh to destroy the sense of people uh to destroy the sense of people uh to destroy the sense of people hanging out in your in your bar, talking hanging out in your in your bar, talking hanging out in your in your bar, talking to each other, rubbing elbows, hitting to each other, rubbing elbows, hitting to each other, rubbing elbows, hitting on each other. If you Wait till AI on each other. If you Wait till AI on each other. If you Wait till AI enters the chat, and then you won't even enters the chat, and then you won't even enters the chat, and then you won't even need friends. You'll just have six or need friends. You'll just have six or need friends. You'll just have six or seven AIs hanging out with you, possibly seven AIs hanging out with you, possibly seven AIs hanging out with you, possibly helping you as you, you know, pleasure helping you as you, you know, pleasure helping you as you, you know, pleasure yourself, so you don't even have to yourself, so you don't even have to yourself, so you don't even have to Hey, save time, you know, just you can Hey, save time, you know, just you can Hey, save time, you know, just you can get it all without even leaving the get it all without even leaving the get it all without even leaving the comfort of your own bed. The concept of comfort of your own bed. The concept of comfort of your own bed. The concept of bed rotting, etc. So, I think they would bed rotting, etc. So, I think they would bed rotting, etc. So, I think they would say, "We're only getting started here." say, "We're only getting started here." say, "We're only getting started here." Uh now, this creates interesting Uh now, this creates interesting Uh now, this creates interesting challenges on a political level because challenges on a political level because challenges on a political level because uh nobody's having children uh in the uh nobody's having children uh in the uh nobody's having children uh in the developing I don't even know what you developing I don't even know what you developing I don't even know what you call it anymore.

call it anymore. call it anymore. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> The opposite of the global South, the >> The opposite of the global South, the >> The opposite of the global South, the global North, nobody's having children. global North, nobody's having children. global North, nobody's having children. The wealthier world I The wealthier world I The wealthier world I you know you know you know East Asia wonderfully leads the pack. I East Asia wonderfully leads the pack. I East Asia wonderfully leads the pack. I go to South Korea a lot because my go to South Korea a lot because my go to South Korea a lot because my wife's Korean-American. Nobody's having wife's Korean-American. Nobody's having wife's Korean-American. Nobody's having kids there. If they do it's one kid. I kids there. If they do it's one kid. I kids there. If they do it's one kid. I say this is also with someone with one say this is also with someone with one say this is also with someone with one kid but you know there nobody's kid but you know there nobody's kid but you know there nobody's replicating themselves in those replicating themselves in those replicating themselves in those societies. societies. societies. >> me what you see when you're there from >> me what you see when you're there from >> me what you see when you're there from that perspective because low fertility that perspective because low fertility that perspective because low fertility rate is happening in the background rate is happening in the background rate is happening in the background there of super sad. there of super sad. there of super sad. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's clearly been something you've >> And it's clearly been something you've >> And it's clearly been something you've thought about for a while. So when you thought about for a while. So when you thought about for a while. So when you go to South Korea which is a go to South Korea which is a go to South Korea which is a society that is now society that is now society that is now if trends continue it will shrink if trends continue it will shrink if trends continue it will shrink geometrically. geometrically. geometrically. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Shrink very very very fast. >> Shrink very very very fast. >> Shrink very very very fast. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What's it like? >> What's it like? >> What's it like? >> It's amazing because oh first of all if >> It's amazing because oh first of all if >> It's amazing because oh first of all if if you're uh if you're uh if you're uh >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> if you're into technology even if you >> if you're into technology even if you >> if you're into technology even if you like a dystopian um like a dystopian um like a dystopian um version of that there's it's all version of that there's it's all version of that there's it's all technology all the time, you know, technology all the time, you know, technology all the time, you know, there's a there's a there's a waste basket that says it's honored to waste basket that says it's honored to waste basket that says it's honored to accept your waste. I mean it just it accept your waste. I mean it just it accept your waste. I mean it just it never ends. Everything's the internet of never ends. Everything's the internet of never ends. Everything's the internet of things. I remember I did a piece for things. I remember I did a piece for things. I remember I did a piece for Smithsonian Smithsonian Smithsonian I went to visit um you know, Korea. One I went to visit um you know, Korea. One I went to visit um you know, Korea. One of the ways they advance is that the of the ways they advance is that the of the ways they advance is that the government uh decides oh now we're going government uh decides oh now we're going government uh decides oh now we're going to do this. Uh so oh now we're going to to do this. Uh so oh now we're going to to do this. Uh so oh now we're going to do um flat screen televisions. This is do um flat screen televisions. This is do um flat screen televisions. This is decades ago. So they became you know, LG decades ago. So they became you know, LG decades ago. So they became you know, LG Samsung took over the market in that.

Samsung took over the market in that. Samsung took over the market in that. Um the last time I was there it was like Um the last time I was there it was like Um the last time I was there it was like oh we're going to take over robotics. oh we're going to take over robotics. oh we're going to take over robotics. Obviously robotics is a thing. So I went Obviously robotics is a thing. So I went Obviously robotics is a thing. So I went to this um to this um to this um way outside of Seoul in the way outside of Seoul in the way outside of Seoul in the I went to this I went to this I went to this >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> place where they were creating bull >> place where they were creating bull >> place where they were creating bull robots. Bull robots? Uh this bull you robots. Bull robots? Uh this bull you robots. Bull robots? Uh this bull you know, you know, you know, you you stood there with a red hanky and you stood there with a red hanky and you stood there with a red hanky and this bull would charge you and they're this bull would charge you and they're this bull would charge you and they're like yes, we're trying to corner the like yes, we're trying to corner the like yes, we're trying to corner the toreador market in Spain because people toreador market in Spain because people toreador market in Spain because people don't want real bulls to die anymore, don't want real bulls to die anymore, don't want real bulls to die anymore, you know, so we're developing these you know, so we're developing these you know, so we're developing these toreador bulls. And this bull looked toreador bulls. And this bull looked toreador bulls. And this bull looked pretty fierce, you know. pretty fierce, you know. pretty fierce, you know. Uh and I'm like Jesus Christ. It's like Uh and I'm like Jesus Christ. It's like Uh and I'm like Jesus Christ. It's like there's no end to it. Every single part there's no end to it. Every single part there's no end to it. Every single part of our lives is going to be replicated. of our lives is going to be replicated. of our lives is going to be replicated. But when you hang out with people in But when you hang out with people in But when you hang out with people in South Korea, they are exhausted. They're South Korea, they are exhausted. They're South Korea, they are exhausted. They're exhausted, you know, and they will drink exhausted, you know, and they will drink exhausted, you know, and they will drink as a Russian I can drink, but nobody as a Russian I can drink, but nobody as a Russian I can drink, but nobody drinks more than people I've met in drinks more than people I've met in drinks more than people I've met in Korea. They will drink themselves into a Korea. They will drink themselves into a Korea. They will drink themselves into a stupor and then talk about how, oh, at stupor and then talk about how, oh, at stupor and then talk about how, oh, at work I'm on the B team. I want to be on work I'm on the B team. I want to be on work I'm on the B team. I want to be on the A team. I'm glad I'm not on the C the A team. I'm glad I'm not on the C the A team. I'm glad I'm not on the C team, but being on the B team isn't team, but being on the B team isn't team, but being on the B team isn't great either, you know. great either, you know. great either, you know. Uh, the metrics are even more finely Uh, the metrics are even more finely Uh, the metrics are even more finely attuned than they are in America and attuned than they are in America and attuned than they are in America and then, you know, but when you're also then, you know, but when you're also then, you know, but when you're also working 80 hours a week and if you have working 80 hours a week and if you have working 80 hours a week and if you have kids, you have to put them through these kids, you have to put them through these kids, you have to put them through these schools to get into a university that schools to get into a university that schools to get into a university that will take up half your paycheck already.

will take up half your paycheck already. will take up half your paycheck already. So having one kid is already a gigantic So having one kid is already a gigantic So having one kid is already a gigantic undertaking. Having two is basically an undertaking. Having two is basically an undertaking. Having two is basically an impossibility for most Koreans. And I impossibility for most Koreans. And I impossibility for most Koreans. And I think that's where we're going to. think that's where we're going to. think that's where we're going to. >> I think there's a really interesting way >> I think there's a really interesting way >> I think there's a really interesting way this actually connects to rankings. this actually connects to rankings. this actually connects to rankings. One of the fascinating thing about One of the fascinating thing about One of the fascinating thing about fertility rates around the world is it fertility rates around the world is it fertility rates around the world is it people tend to have a lot of kids for people tend to have a lot of kids for people tend to have a lot of kids for some reason when they're very, very some reason when they're very, very some reason when they're very, very rich. rich. rich. But also when they're quite poor. But also when they're quite poor. But also when they're quite poor. And then in the middle here it's too And then in the middle here it's too And then in the middle here it's too expensive to have kids. expensive to have kids. expensive to have kids. And it's not that that's wrong, but it And it's not that that's wrong, but it And it's not that that's wrong, but it has to do with the positional has to do with the positional has to do with the positional competition of having kids competition of having kids competition of having kids when you are in richer countries in when you are in richer countries in when you are in richer countries in particular. particular. particular. And I mean obviously there's other And I mean obviously there's other And I mean obviously there's other things going on here, birth control and things going on here, birth control and things going on here, birth control and women's liberation and a million women's liberation and a million women's liberation and a million different things, but there is a reality different things, but there is a reality different things, but there is a reality that, you know, you go to much poorer that, you know, you go to much poorer that, you know, you go to much poorer places and they have a lot more places and they have a lot more places and they have a lot more children. children. children. And then you go to Brooklyn and And then you go to Brooklyn and And then you go to Brooklyn and everybody's like, it's too expensive to everybody's like, it's too expensive to everybody's like, it's too expensive to have kids. have kids. have kids. And it's not that that's fake, it's And it's not that that's fake, it's And it's not that that's fake, it's true. true. true. But it has to do with, But it has to do with, But it has to do with, you know, we have made having kids very, you know, we have made having kids very, you know, we have made having kids very, very expensive. very expensive. very expensive. >> We've made it having kids very, very >> We've made it having kids very, very >> We've made it having kids very, very expensive. We've also made it too expensive. We've also made it too expensive. We've also made it too competitive. Um, competitive. Um, competitive. Um, I was just in Palo Alto and then I flew I was just in Palo Alto and then I flew I was just in Palo Alto and then I flew back to downtown Manhattan back to downtown Manhattan back to downtown Manhattan [clears throat] where I live and and in [clears throat] where I live and and in [clears throat] where I live and and in both of these precincts there's this both of these precincts there's this both of these precincts there's this feeling that you're not just having a feeling that you're not just having a feeling that you're not just having a child, you're having a kind of child, you're having a kind of child, you're having a kind of I I don't know, you're having a I I don't know, you're having a I I don't know, you're having a corporation, a mini corporation that has corporation, a mini corporation that has corporation, a mini corporation that has to do really, really well. The to do really, really well. The to do really, really well. The competition among these kids because it competition among these kids because it competition among these kids because it almost feels like these parents and the almost feels like these parents and the almost feels like these parents and the kids recognize that the pie is so small kids recognize that the pie is so small kids recognize that the pie is so small that it's so easy to get kicked out of that it's so easy to get kicked out of that it's so easy to get kicked out of the whatever you want to call it, the the whatever you want to call it, the the whatever you want to call it, the upper middle class, the coastal elites,

upper middle class, the coastal elites, upper middle class, the coastal elites, whatever you want to call it. And so the whatever you want to call it. And so the whatever you want to call it. And so the competition is breathtaking for just a competition is breathtaking for just a competition is breathtaking for just a little smidgen of the pie, you know. God little smidgen of the pie, you know. God little smidgen of the pie, you know. God bless Clavicular as an economic agent. bless Clavicular as an economic agent. bless Clavicular as an economic agent. He's figured out his own path forward. He's figured out his own path forward. He's figured out his own path forward. He's making 1.2 million or something a He's making 1.2 million or something a He's making 1.2 million or something a year by, you know, doing this complete year by, you know, doing this complete year by, you know, doing this complete horse [ __ ] That's incredibly cool for horse [ __ ] That's incredibly cool for horse [ __ ] That's incredibly cool for him. Uh and that I think that is the him. Uh and that I think that is the him. Uh and that I think that is the model that so many Americans are looking model that so many Americans are looking model that so many Americans are looking at. It used to be, you know, oh, I'm at. It used to be, you know, oh, I'm at. It used to be, you know, oh, I'm going to be a basketball player, you going to be a basketball player, you going to be a basketball player, you know, I'm going to be in a cool rock and know, I'm going to be in a cool rock and know, I'm going to be in a cool rock and roll band. Now it is, I'm going to be roll band. Now it is, I'm going to be roll band. Now it is, I'm going to be mentally ill on TikTok and I'm going to mentally ill on TikTok and I'm going to mentally ill on TikTok and I'm going to make a lot of money off that. People are make a lot of money off that. People are make a lot of money off that. People are trying to and you were talking about trying to and you were talking about trying to and you were talking about this earlier, trying to sort of this earlier, trying to sort of this earlier, trying to sort of commodify their own sense of grief. commodify their own sense of grief. commodify their own sense of grief. There's like grief maxing now where There's like grief maxing now where There's like grief maxing now where people talk on, you know, about all the people talk on, you know, about all the people talk on, you know, about all the grief that they've suffered, which I grief that they've suffered, which I grief that they've suffered, which I guess is called a novel, but guess is called a novel, but guess is called a novel, but uh right, but now it's also a TikTok. uh right, but now it's also a TikTok. uh right, but now it's also a TikTok. So, So, So, um but again, these kids that I'm um but again, these kids that I'm um but again, these kids that I'm looking at, like, yeah, what happens to looking at, like, yeah, what happens to looking at, like, yeah, what happens to them? Um I know parents who are them? Um I know parents who are them? Um I know parents who are decamillionaires, centimillionaires, and decamillionaires, centimillionaires, and decamillionaires, centimillionaires, and they're still incredibly worried for they're still incredibly worried for they're still incredibly worried for what their kids will do. And so this what their kids will do. And so this what their kids will do. And so this isn't fun for the parents. It's not fun isn't fun for the parents. It's not fun isn't fun for the parents. It's not fun for the kids. It takes away It creates for the kids. It takes away It creates for the kids. It takes away It creates It recreates that sense of metrics that It recreates that sense of metrics that It recreates that sense of metrics that creates for Clavicular Claviculars down creates for Clavicular Claviculars down creates for Clavicular Claviculars down the line.

the line. the line. >> I find this very frightening. I have a >> I find this very frightening. I have a >> I find this very frightening. I have a first-grader and another one who'll be first-grader and another one who'll be first-grader and another one who'll be in kindergarten next year. in kindergarten next year. in kindergarten next year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I know it's coming for them. I know >> And I know it's coming for them. I know >> And I know it's coming for them. I know it's coming for them and for me. So it's coming for them and for me. So it's coming for them and for me. So there's a sadness to this for me. I I, there's a sadness to this for me. I I, there's a sadness to this for me. I I, you know, look at my son like studying you know, look at my son like studying you know, look at my son like studying his Pokémon card binder every morning. his Pokémon card binder every morning. his Pokémon card binder every morning. Which it's not for anything. Which it's not for anything. Which it's not for anything. >> It's not for anything. >> It's not for anything. >> It's not for anything. >> He just likes the cards cuz he likes the >> He just likes the cards cuz he likes the >> He just likes the cards cuz he likes the cards and I know homework is coming in a cards and I know homework is coming in a cards and I know homework is coming in a real way and I know the competitions are real way and I know the competitions are real way and I know the competitions are coming and I know it'll be important for coming and I know it'll be important for coming and I know it'll be important for him to at least do like well enough in him to at least do like well enough in him to at least do like well enough in them and and obviously for my younger them and and obviously for my younger them and and obviously for my younger one when it's his turn. one when it's his turn. one when it's his turn. And I just feel this dread And I just feel this dread And I just feel this dread of so much of the joy being drained out of so much of the joy being drained out of so much of the joy being drained out of their life. One thing I can suggest of their life. One thing I can suggest of their life. One thing I can suggest is is is mind when your kid develops a real love, mind when your kid develops a real love, mind when your kid develops a real love, especially a love of something creative. especially a love of something creative. especially a love of something creative. My son loves composition, musical My son loves composition, musical My son loves composition, musical composition. Loves it, and he's going to composition. Loves it, and he's going to composition. Loves it, and he's going to school next year, you know, during the school next year, you know, during the school next year, you know, during the weekend that will, you know, weekend that will, you know, weekend that will, you know, um, prep him for, if he wants a career um, prep him for, if he wants a career um, prep him for, if he wants a career as a composer someday. I don't know, as a composer someday. I don't know, as a composer someday. I don't know, maybe AI will do that, too.

maybe AI will do that, too. maybe AI will do that, too. Uh, but he loves it, and this, I think, Uh, but he loves it, and this, I think, Uh, but he loves it, and this, I think, you know, he's sitting there in a class. you know, he's sitting there in a class. you know, he's sitting there in a class. He may like the class, he may not like He may like the class, he may not like He may like the class, he may not like the class, but he's humming to himself. the class, but he's humming to himself. the class, but he's humming to himself. >> I think there's a, this is like an >> I think there's a, this is like an >> I think there's a, this is like an interesting bridge to this book of interesting bridge to this book of interesting bridge to this book of essays you have coming out called The essays you have coming out called The essays you have coming out called The Sensualist. Sensualist. Sensualist. And, you know, you could really see this And, you know, you could really see this And, you know, you could really see this in Lenny. You could see this in some of in Lenny. You could see this in some of in Lenny. You could see this in some of your characters over over the years. your characters over over the years. your characters over over the years. That it feels to me that one of the That it feels to me that one of the That it feels to me that one of the arguments you've quietly been making and arguments you've quietly been making and arguments you've quietly been making and then making more loudly in your then making more loudly in your then making more loudly in your non-fiction non-fiction non-fiction is that it is a radical act to in a is that it is a radical act to in a is that it is a radical act to in a bodily, physical way bodily, physical way bodily, physical way just enjoy this life. just enjoy this life. just enjoy this life. So, so first, like, what is sensualism So, so first, like, what is sensualism So, so first, like, what is sensualism to you? to you? to you? >> Well, first of all, it's not even just >> Well, first of all, it's not even just >> Well, first of all, it's not even just about the senses. It is in a more about the senses. It is in a more about the senses. It is in a more Buddhist or meditative way, if you want Buddhist or meditative way, if you want Buddhist or meditative way, if you want to take it that way, it is enjoying to take it that way, it is enjoying to take it that way, it is enjoying what's happening in the present moment. what's happening in the present moment. what's happening in the present moment. I am, I bet, right? I am, I bet, right? I am, I bet, right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Very nice pandering. But also, I know >> Very nice pandering. But also, I know >> Very nice pandering. But also, I know that there's some probably Buddhist, that there's some probably Buddhist, that there's some probably Buddhist, uh, listeners out there, and I love all uh, listeners out there, and I love all uh, listeners out there, and I love all of you. I do a little little headspace of you. I do a little little headspace of you. I do a little little headspace here and there, here and there, here and there, when when when life requires it. But, when when when life requires it. But, when when when life requires it. But, um, I do, um, I do, um, I do, you know, I was walking here today, and, you know, I was walking here today, and, you know, I was walking here today, and, uh, mostly I'm in the summer upstate, uh, mostly I'm in the summer upstate, uh, mostly I'm in the summer upstate, but I came down for for this interview, but I came down for for this interview, but I came down for for this interview, and I'm walking down Broadway, and I and I'm walking down Broadway, and I and I'm walking down Broadway, and I looked up, and I'm just noticing these looked up, and I'm just noticing these looked up, and I'm just noticing these beautiful mansard roofs of some of these beautiful mansard roofs of some of these beautiful mansard roofs of some of these buildings. Now, I spend half of my year buildings. Now, I spend half of my year buildings. Now, I spend half of my year in New York. I forgot all about these in New York. I forgot all about these in New York. I forgot all about these mansard roofs. I'm like, damn, somebody mansard roofs. I'm like, damn, somebody mansard roofs. I'm like, damn, somebody did something right architecturally. New did something right architecturally. New did something right architecturally. New York is such a hodgepodge of good and York is such a hodgepodge of good and York is such a hodgepodge of good and bad architecture. Maybe that's one of bad architecture. Maybe that's one of bad architecture. Maybe that's one of the things that makes it such a cool the things that makes it such a cool the things that makes it such a cool city is that it's not beautiful city is that it's not beautiful city is that it's not beautiful beautiful, it's just this Michael beautiful, it's just this Michael beautiful, it's just this Michael >> Michael Kimmelman, uh, when I moved >> Michael Kimmelman, uh, when I moved >> Michael Kimmelman, uh, when I moved here, which is only a couple years ago, here, which is only a couple years ago, here, which is only a couple years ago, I read Michael Kimmelman, uh, his book

I read Michael Kimmelman, uh, his book I read Michael Kimmelman, uh, his book called The Intimate City, and he says, called The Intimate City, and he says, called The Intimate City, and he says, "The beauty of New York is the "The beauty of New York is the "The beauty of New York is the juxtaposition of this with that." juxtaposition of this with that." juxtaposition of this with that." >> Yes, this with that. That's this with >> Yes, this with that. That's this with >> Yes, this with that. That's this with that. that. that. >> And that like allowed me to see the >> And that like allowed me to see the >> And that like allowed me to see the beauty of New York. It was like a single beauty of New York. It was like a single beauty of New York. It was like a single sentence that reshaped how I looked at a sentence that reshaped how I looked at a sentence that reshaped how I looked at a whole place. whole place. whole place. >> This with that. This with that. So, >> This with that. This with that. So, >> This with that. This with that. So, [snorts] look, [snorts] look, [snorts] look, I agree with that. Wonderful man. I agree with that. Wonderful man. I agree with that. Wonderful man. Wonderful lunch date. Um, Wonderful lunch date. Um, Wonderful lunch date. Um, this and that I'm I'm I'm I'm going down this and that I'm I'm I'm I'm going down this and that I'm I'm I'm I'm going down the street and this and that is creating the street and this and that is creating the street and this and that is creating a fear of great pleasure in me. a fear of great pleasure in me. a fear of great pleasure in me. Is it one of the senses? Yes, this is Is it one of the senses? Yes, this is Is it one of the senses? Yes, this is sight, which is probably the most boring sight, which is probably the most boring sight, which is probably the most boring sense. sense. sense. Uh, but I am, Uh, but I am, Uh, but I am, >> If you had to rank them. >> If you had to rank them. >> If you had to rank them. >> If I had to rank them. Well, it's the >> If I had to rank them. Well, it's the >> If I had to rank them. Well, it's the most obvious one. most obvious one. most obvious one. Uh, but you know, recently I got a Uh, but you know, recently I got a Uh, but you know, recently I got a dachshund, which is the world's best dachshund, which is the world's best dachshund, which is the world's best dog, clearly, and this giant sausage, dog, clearly, and this giant sausage, dog, clearly, and this giant sausage, uh, completely out of control. Bernie is uh, completely out of control. Bernie is uh, completely out of control. Bernie is his name. I dedicate The Sensualist to his name. I dedicate The Sensualist to his name. I dedicate The Sensualist to Bernie, my furry sensualist, because he Bernie, my furry sensualist, because he Bernie, my furry sensualist, because he is a very sensual dog. And his great is a very sensual dog. And his great is a very sensual dog. And his great sense is smell, obviously. So, he will sense is smell, obviously. So, he will sense is smell, obviously. So, he will walk down the street and there's a walk down the street and there's a walk down the street and there's a corner where every dog pees on, and he corner where every dog pees on, and he corner where every dog pees on, and he approaches it like a Talmudic scholar, approaches it like a Talmudic scholar, approaches it like a Talmudic scholar, you know, and he you know, and he you know, and he he sniffs here, he sniffs there. Yes, he sniffs here, he sniffs there. Yes, he sniffs here, he sniffs there. Yes, Rocco was here at 12:30. That's right.

Rocco was here at 12:30. That's right. Rocco was here at 12:30. That's right. That's right. Let's remember that, you That's right. Let's remember that, you That's right. Let's remember that, you know. He loves and his tail is wagging know. He loves and his tail is wagging know. He loves and his tail is wagging away. He's just enjoying the hell out of away. He's just enjoying the hell out of away. He's just enjoying the hell out of life. He enjoys this more than I mean, life. He enjoys this more than I mean, life. He enjoys this more than I mean, he loves food, obviously, but food is he loves food, obviously, but food is he loves food, obviously, but food is So, we all have this part in us that is So, we all have this part in us that is So, we all have this part in us that is able to enjoy things on this crazy able to enjoy things on this crazy able to enjoy things on this crazy level. It's most of it is free. Some of level. It's most of it is free. Some of level. It's most of it is free. Some of my hobbies are slightly expensive, but my hobbies are slightly expensive, but my hobbies are slightly expensive, but most of this stuff is wonderfully free. most of this stuff is wonderfully free. most of this stuff is wonderfully free. It's all around us, you know. So, the It's all around us, you know. So, the It's all around us, you know. So, the more and the more I live, also, I find more and the more I live, also, I find more and the more I live, also, I find in some ways in some ways in some ways that the sense of ambition that, you that the sense of ambition that, you that the sense of ambition that, you know, that younger people have know, that younger people have know, that younger people have diminishes in some good ways. As I sort diminishes in some good ways. As I sort diminishes in some good ways. As I sort of see what the rest of my life will of see what the rest of my life will of see what the rest of my life will look like, I'm fine with it. Maybe good look like, I'm fine with it. Maybe good look like, I'm fine with it. Maybe good things will happen. Maybe some terrible things will happen. Maybe some terrible things will happen. Maybe some terrible things will happen. But I'm more or less things will happen. But I'm more or less things will happen. But I'm more or less okay with it as long as that sense of okay with it as long as that sense of okay with it as long as that sense of enjoyment doesn't leave me. The other enjoyment doesn't leave me. The other enjoyment doesn't leave me. The other thing that I talk about in The thing that I talk about in The thing that I talk about in The Sensualist is that I recently two of my Sensualist is that I recently two of my Sensualist is that I recently two of my most sensual friends have died recently, most sensual friends have died recently, most sensual friends have died recently, and it was remarkably sad, obviously, to and it was remarkably sad, obviously, to and it was remarkably sad, obviously, to watch them die of cancer in their early watch them die of cancer in their early watch them die of cancer in their early 50s in my my generation. Incredibly sad. 50s in my my generation. Incredibly sad. 50s in my my generation. Incredibly sad. But to the last moment, you know, they But to the last moment, you know, they But to the last moment, you know, they found things to enjoy. Almost to the found things to enjoy. Almost to the found things to enjoy. Almost to the very last moment, there were things that very last moment, there were things that very last moment, there were things that they enjoyed. And I think the thing they they enjoyed. And I think the thing they they enjoyed. And I think the thing they enjoyed the most was talking, verbaling, enjoyed the most was talking, verbaling, enjoyed the most was talking, verbaling, if you will, with their friends. Either if you will, with their friends. Either if you will, with their friends. Either even at the, you know, nobody wants to even at the, you know, nobody wants to even at the, you know, nobody wants to verbal in Sloan Kettering. That's the verbal in Sloan Kettering. That's the verbal in Sloan Kettering. That's the worst place you want to do it. But if worst place you want to do it. But if worst place you want to do it. But if it's there, it still beats not verb- it it's there, it still beats not verb- it it's there, it still beats not verb- it still beats not having cancer, I think, still beats not having cancer, I think, still beats not having cancer, I think, and hitting yourself with a hammer to and hitting yourself with a hammer to and hitting yourself with a hammer to create the sense that you're meeting create the sense that you're meeting create the sense that you're meeting symmetric.

symmetric. symmetric. >> I think the >> I think the >> I think the the interesting thing you're doing in the interesting thing you're doing in the interesting thing you're doing in that in across these essays which are that in across these essays which are that in across these essays which are about martinis and suits and, you know, about martinis and suits and, you know, about martinis and suits and, you know, all all all kinds of things, capybaras. all all all kinds of things, capybaras. all all all kinds of things, capybaras. >> I love capybaras. >> I love capybaras. >> I love capybaras. >> Yeah, capybaras, is that how you say it? >> Yeah, capybaras, is that how you say it? >> Yeah, capybaras, is that how you say it? >> Well, I'm trying to be a little more >> Well, I'm trying to be a little more >> Well, I'm trying to be a little more Latin American given that they mostly Latin American given that they mostly Latin American given that they mostly live in a capybara in in Brazil. live in a capybara in in Brazil. live in a capybara in in Brazil. >> Oh, there you go. Capybara. >> Oh, there you go. Capybara. >> Oh, there you go. Capybara. There is something about the way There is something about the way There is something about the way elite culture elite culture elite culture flaunts the repression of enjoyment. flaunts the repression of enjoyment. flaunts the repression of enjoyment. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um I saw there was this clip that had >> Um I saw there was this clip that had >> Um I saw there was this clip that had gone viral the other day from uh the guy gone viral the other day from uh the guy gone viral the other day from uh the guy who hosts Diary of a CEO. who hosts Diary of a CEO. who hosts Diary of a CEO. >> I had a year of not drinking, decided to >> I had a year of not drinking, decided to >> I had a year of not drinking, decided to have a drink again. have a drink again. have a drink again. It ruined 3 days of my life. It ruined 3 days of my life. It ruined 3 days of my life. I had a couple of glasses of wine, I had a couple of glasses of wine, I had a couple of glasses of wine, didn't get drunk. It ruined 3 days of my didn't get drunk. It ruined 3 days of my didn't get drunk. It ruined 3 days of my life because of the the domino effect it life because of the the domino effect it life because of the the domino effect it caused. So which it meant that I got caused. So which it meant that I got caused. So which it meant that I got worse sleep that night. I ate more worse sleep that night. I ate more worse sleep that night. I ate more poorly the the next day because my poorly the the next day because my poorly the the next day because my dopamine system or whatever the cortisol dopamine system or whatever the cortisol dopamine system or whatever the cortisol system was all system was all system was all >> That's brilliant. >> That's brilliant. >> That's brilliant. >> And then I I podcasted worse. I didn't >> And then I I podcasted worse. I didn't >> And then I I podcasted worse. I didn't go to the gym the day after that that go to the gym the day after that that go to the gym the day after that that day or the day after because of that day or the day after because of that day or the day after because of that because I felt really bad. I then slept because I felt really bad. I then slept because I felt really bad. I then slept worse. And I was like, "Oh my god, that worse. And I was like, "Oh my god, that worse. And I was like, "Oh my god, that those three glasses of wine had this those three glasses of wine had this those three glasses of wine had this hidden domino effect that I must have hidden domino effect that I must have hidden domino effect that I must have been living with."

been living with." been living with." >> And I thought this is a little bit >> And I thought this is a little bit >> And I thought this is a little bit unfair to him how viral it went, but it unfair to him how viral it went, but it unfair to him how viral it went, but it it it it hit a nerve. it it it hit a nerve. it it it hit a nerve. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because it was hitting this culture, >> Because it was hitting this culture, >> Because it was hitting this culture, right? It was a good example of this right? It was a good example of this right? It was a good example of this culture in which there is a status culture in which there is a status culture in which there is a status in optimizing everything, the aura ring, in optimizing everything, the aura ring, in optimizing everything, the aura ring, right? You never have a drink. right? You never have a drink. right? You never have a drink. And and I do think people have this And and I do think people have this And and I do think people have this feeling of like feeling of like feeling of like well, what about enjoyment? Like, what's well, what about enjoyment? Like, what's well, what about enjoyment? Like, what's the point of all this? AI can already do the point of all this? AI can already do the point of all this? AI can already do a bunch of the things we can do. Like, a bunch of the things we can do. Like, a bunch of the things we can do. Like, if we're not going to be here and if we're not going to be here and if we're not going to be here and enjoy music, enjoy enjoy music, enjoy enjoy music, enjoy a drink, enjoy great food, right? If a drink, enjoy great food, right? If a drink, enjoy great food, right? If you're going to endlessly be having like you're going to endlessly be having like you're going to endlessly be having like a glucose monitor and you're not a a glucose monitor and you're not a a glucose monitor and you're not a diabetic. And then you're like, well, diabetic. And then you're like, well, diabetic. And then you're like, well, pasta really spikes my glucose. pasta really spikes my glucose. pasta really spikes my glucose. And and like this is what like the And and like this is what like the And and like this is what like the people I mean, you listen to some of the people I mean, you listen to some of the people I mean, you listen to some of the you know, top podcast will have like all you know, top podcast will have like all you know, top podcast will have like all kinds of health influencers on. kinds of health influencers on. kinds of health influencers on. And I'm not saying that necessarily even And I'm not saying that necessarily even And I'm not saying that necessarily even that they're wrong about what they're that they're wrong about what they're that they're wrong about what they're saying. Sometimes they are. saying. Sometimes they are. saying. Sometimes they are. But it just sounds so joyless. I was But it just sounds so joyless. I was But it just sounds so joyless. I was watching something go around the other watching something go around the other watching something go around the other day. There was like from this study and day. There was like from this study and day. There was like from this study and it was like it was like it was like >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> turns out that doing 12 air squats every >> turns out that doing 12 air squats every >> turns out that doing 12 air squats every 25 minutes is like better for you than 25 minutes is like better for you than 25 minutes is like better for you than like running to whatever it was. It's like running to whatever it was. It's like running to whatever it was. It's like like like I think I I don't want to say I'd rather I think I I don't want to say I'd rather I think I I don't want to say I'd rather die than do 12 air squats every 45 die than do 12 air squats every 45 die than do 12 air squats every 45 minutes.

minutes. minutes. >> so I'm I'm probably ahead of you. >> so I'm I'm probably ahead of you. >> so I'm I'm probably ahead of you. >> But it it didn't seem like a way to >> But it it didn't seem like a way to >> But it it didn't seem like a way to live. live. live. >> No, no. I think yeah, the other way I >> No, no. I think yeah, the other way I >> No, no. I think yeah, the other way I could title a book about current status could title a book about current status could title a book about current status no way to live. no way to live. no way to live. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> None of this is a way to live. You know, >> None of this is a way to live. You know, >> None of this is a way to live. You know, me I posit and I don't know, there could me I posit and I don't know, there could me I posit and I don't know, there could be some blowback or pushback on this, be some blowback or pushback on this, be some blowback or pushback on this, but that this is a problem for us as but that this is a problem for us as but that this is a problem for us as Democrats. Is that you know, because of Democrats. Is that you know, because of Democrats. Is that you know, because of so much of this is a part of what you so much of this is a part of what you so much of this is a part of what you hear and see in certain in elite hear and see in certain in elite hear and see in certain in elite democratic principle precincts. This democratic principle precincts. This democratic principle precincts. This isn't, you know, just I mean, Silicon isn't, you know, just I mean, Silicon isn't, you know, just I mean, Silicon Valley obviously has a Valley obviously has a Valley obviously has a a lovely fascist wing now, but there's a lovely fascist wing now, but there's a lovely fascist wing now, but there's still quite a few people who are still quite a few people who are still quite a few people who are democratic in some way or another. democratic in some way or another. democratic in some way or another. But the one thing about Trump, humor is But the one thing about Trump, humor is But the one thing about Trump, humor is always even when it's has this very always even when it's has this very always even when it's has this very nasty edge, it's seen as a kind of nasty edge, it's seen as a kind of nasty edge, it's seen as a kind of joyous thing. And he would belt things joyous thing. And he would belt things joyous thing. And he would belt things out and then he would out and then he would out and then he would you know, you know, and you know, you know, and you know, you know, and people people listened, you know. people people listened, you know. people people listened, you know. Speaking of Trump, Emily Nussbaum I Speaking of Trump, Emily Nussbaum I Speaking of Trump, Emily Nussbaum I think wrote the best piece ever on that think wrote the best piece ever on that think wrote the best piece ever on that when she wrote in the New Yorker about when she wrote in the New Yorker about when she wrote in the New Yorker about um um um Trump really Trump really Trump really stealing appropriating as they say the stealing appropriating as they say the stealing appropriating as they say the humor of sort of Jewish Borscht Belt humor of sort of Jewish Borscht Belt humor of sort of Jewish Borscht Belt comics of a certain period, right? And comics of a certain period, right? And comics of a certain period, right? And then using it for his own evil purposes.

then using it for his own evil purposes. then using it for his own evil purposes. So, I think a lot of the other Trump So, I think a lot of the other Trump So, I think a lot of the other Trump wannabes try to do this. Many of them wannabes try to do this. Many of them wannabes try to do this. Many of them failed, but there is that kind of failed, but there is that kind of failed, but there is that kind of motion. motion. motion. >> Trump is a sensualist. >> Trump is a sensualist. >> Trump is a sensualist. >> Trump is in some horrible >> Trump is in some horrible >> Trump is in some horrible >> He loves a pretty room. >> He loves a pretty room. >> He loves a pretty room. >> He loves a pretty room. >> He loves a pretty room. >> He loves a pretty room. >> Thinks a lot about interior design. He >> Thinks a lot about interior design. He >> Thinks a lot about interior design. He loves loves a good musical. loves loves a good musical. loves loves a good musical. >> That's right. Right, right, right. >> That's right. Right, right, right. >> That's right. Right, right, right. >> J.D. Vance is not a sensualist. Marco >> J.D. Vance is not a sensualist. Marco >> J.D. Vance is not a sensualist. Marco Rubio is not a sensualist. Trump is. Rubio is not a sensualist. Trump is. Rubio is not a sensualist. Trump is. >> I I think you're absolutely right. And >> I I think you're absolutely right. And >> I I think you're absolutely right. And and maybe that maybe there is in a and maybe that maybe there is in a and maybe that maybe there is in a horrible way something that we can take horrible way something that we can take horrible way something that we can take away from this. That the people that we away from this. That the people that we away from this. That the people that we nominate nominate nominate to be our leaders can't be I mean to be our leaders can't be I mean to be our leaders can't be I mean >> Kamala Harris >> Kamala Harris >> Kamala Harris >> She talked about joy so much that you >> She talked about joy so much that you >> She talked about joy so much that you knew that there wasn't that much joy knew that there wasn't that much joy knew that there wasn't that much joy going on, you know, it was this Look at going on, you know, it was this Look at going on, you know, it was this Look at the joy. It's a what we call in fiction the joy. It's a what we call in fiction the joy. It's a what we call in fiction telling not showing. telling not showing. telling not showing. Joy, joy, joy, you know, but we need Joy, joy, joy, you know, but we need Joy, joy, joy, you know, but we need leaders or or candidates who can evince leaders or or candidates who can evince leaders or or candidates who can evince not just the unhappiness of what not just the unhappiness of what not just the unhappiness of what everything we're confronting from, you everything we're confronting from, you everything we're confronting from, you know, climate change to inflation to the know, climate change to inflation to the know, climate change to inflation to the mess that's going to be left to us when mess that's going to be left to us when mess that's going to be left to us when the president leaves. And that's not the president leaves. And that's not the president leaves. And that's not easy to do because we so programmed this easy to do because we so programmed this easy to do because we so programmed this idea that we have to democracy max and idea that we have to democracy max and idea that we have to democracy max and we have to be constantly, you know, we have to be constantly, you know, we have to be constantly, you know, talking about all the terrible things talking about all the terrible things talking about all the terrible things instead of talking about the things that instead of talking about the things that instead of talking about the things that give us pleasure, the things that we give us pleasure, the things that we give us pleasure, the things that we love, the parts of community that make love, the parts of community that make love, the parts of community that make life livable.

life livable. life livable. >> There's a lot of honest answers to that. >> There's a lot of honest answers to that. >> There's a lot of honest answers to that. One is, One is, One is, you know, and this I think is fairly you know, and this I think is fairly you know, and this I think is fairly bipartisan transpartisan sort of elite bipartisan transpartisan sort of elite bipartisan transpartisan sort of elite display of discipline. display of discipline. display of discipline. It is a positional competition It is a positional competition It is a positional competition to show to show to show that you are like optimizing your body that you are like optimizing your body that you are like optimizing your body within an inch of your life and your within an inch of your life and your within an inch of your life and your mind and you're never you know, you're mind and you're never you know, you're mind and you're never you know, you're how much you're reading and you're you how much you're reading and you're you how much you're reading and you're you know, and and look I'm not saying by any know, and and look I'm not saying by any know, and and look I'm not saying by any means I'm free of this. means I'm free of this. means I'm free of this. The other side which I think is more The other side which I think is more The other side which I think is more specific on the left specific on the left specific on the left is that pleasure is problematic. is that pleasure is problematic. is that pleasure is problematic. >> Yeah. For all different kinds of >> Yeah. For all different kinds of >> Yeah. For all different kinds of reasons, right? You know, maybe the reasons, right? You know, maybe the reasons, right? You know, maybe the things you enjoy are not politically things you enjoy are not politically things you enjoy are not politically like a center, the the the jokes are too like a center, the the the jokes are too like a center, the the the jokes are too gauche, right? The There's like a gauche, right? The There's like a gauche, right? The There's like a million reasons, but I do not find that million reasons, but I do not find that million reasons, but I do not find that people are people are people are comfortable admitting to a lot of comfortable admitting to a lot of comfortable admitting to a lot of enjoyment. It's the the discourse is enjoyment. It's the the discourse is enjoyment. It's the the discourse is critical, not appreciative. critical, not appreciative. critical, not appreciative. >> Yeah, and I think look, I think >> Yeah, and I think look, I think >> Yeah, and I think look, I think uh this is a Protestant country. Uh uh this is a Protestant country. Uh uh this is a Protestant country. Uh there is this kind of there is this kind of there is this kind of uh Protestant background. And many of uh Protestant background. And many of uh Protestant background. And many of the immigrants that come here, including the immigrants that come here, including the immigrants that come here, including my own family, right? They are my own family, right? They are my own family, right? They are Protestant in a sense, too, in that they Protestant in a sense, too, in that they Protestant in a sense, too, in that they they, you know, they work to they live they, you know, they work to they live they, you know, they work to they live to work instead of working to live.

to work instead of working to live. to work instead of working to live. That's part of the the sort of the coda. That's part of the the sort of the coda. That's part of the the sort of the coda. So, it's very hard for people to So, it's very hard for people to So, it's very hard for people to appreciate things that are um appreciate things that are um appreciate things that are um that bring you joy, because joy itself that bring you joy, because joy itself that bring you joy, because joy itself is kind of suspect. Well, do that on is kind of suspect. Well, do that on is kind of suspect. Well, do that on your own time. Don't talk about that. your own time. Don't talk about that. your own time. Don't talk about that. Just leave the joy out of there, you Just leave the joy out of there, you Just leave the joy out of there, you know. know. know. I I think people miss the idea of being I I think people miss the idea of being I I think people miss the idea of being able to talk, in my case, write about able to talk, in my case, write about able to talk, in my case, write about that I love, you know? Um there's so that I love, you know? Um there's so that I love, you know? Um there's so much pleasure in The writing is almost a much pleasure in The writing is almost a much pleasure in The writing is almost a second pleasure I get when I try to second pleasure I get when I try to second pleasure I get when I try to think about what all these things mean think about what all these things mean think about what all these things mean to me, and I get to I get to sort of to me, and I get to I get to sort of to me, and I get to I get to sort of live in that world for a while. You live in that world for a while. You live in that world for a while. You know, I was just in Spain with my kid know, I was just in Spain with my kid know, I was just in Spain with my kid and my wife, and I was showing him and my wife, and I was showing him and my wife, and I was showing him Andalusia, you know, this Andalusia, you know, this Andalusia, you know, this which is considered the poorest region which is considered the poorest region which is considered the poorest region or one of the poorest regions of Spain. or one of the poorest regions of Spain. or one of the poorest regions of Spain. There's this wonderful I think I was There's this wonderful I think I was There's this wonderful I think I was listening to this on a former podcast of listening to this on a former podcast of listening to this on a former podcast of yours where we were talking about, you yours where we were talking about, you yours where we were talking about, you know, how Mississippi is um know, how Mississippi is um know, how Mississippi is um uh richer than almost every uh European uh richer than almost every uh European uh richer than almost every uh European state. state. state. Well, I have spent time in Mississippi. Well, I have spent time in Mississippi. Well, I have spent time in Mississippi. You know, Mississippi, if anything, You know, Mississippi, if anything, You know, Mississippi, if anything, reminds me of Russia, where there's a reminds me of Russia, where there's a reminds me of Russia, where there's a couple of super rich people with couple of super rich people with couple of super rich people with gigantic houses and pools, and then gigantic houses and pools, and then gigantic houses and pools, and then there are people living in conditions there are people living in conditions there are people living in conditions that, you know, almost anywhere in the that, you know, almost anywhere in the that, you know, almost anywhere in the world would be seen as very poor. And world would be seen as very poor. And world would be seen as very poor. And the medium of that becomes whatever that the medium of that becomes whatever that the medium of that becomes whatever that number is.

number is. number is. Uh I'm sorry, the average of that, not Uh I'm sorry, the average of that, not Uh I'm sorry, the average of that, not the median, becomes whatever that number the median, becomes whatever that number the median, becomes whatever that number is. You go to You go to the poorest is. You go to You go to the poorest is. You go to You go to the poorest region in Spain, life is beautiful. Um region in Spain, life is beautiful. Um region in Spain, life is beautiful. Um I'm not saying that there that it's I'm not saying that there that it's I'm not saying that there that it's completely free of poverty, but the completely free of poverty, but the completely free of poverty, but the communal connections are so strong. The communal connections are so strong. The communal connections are so strong. The things that bring people joy are so things that bring people joy are so things that bring people joy are so celebrated, whether it's wine or a large celebrated, whether it's wine or a large celebrated, whether it's wine or a large midday meal or or people, you know, midday meal or or people, you know, midday meal or or people, you know, having having having sex with each other, you know, and then sex with each other, you know, and then sex with each other, you know, and then talking about it and loving it, you talking about it and loving it, you talking about it and loving it, you know, they love their culture even know, they love their culture even know, they love their culture even though statistically they're making half though statistically they're making half though statistically they're making half of what Mississippi makes. It doesn't of what Mississippi makes. It doesn't of what Mississippi makes. It doesn't matter. They're three, four, five, six, matter. They're three, four, five, six, matter. They're three, four, five, six, eight times as rich as we are in almost eight times as rich as we are in almost eight times as rich as we are in almost every other context. every other context. every other context. >> Say say more on this. So, be because I >> Say say more on this. So, be because I >> Say say more on this. So, be because I mean these numbers are true, right? Like mean these numbers are true, right? Like mean these numbers are true, right? Like I've I've looked into this debate and I've I've looked into this debate and I've I've looked into this debate and it's not just averages, it's medians and it's not just averages, it's medians and it's not just averages, it's medians and you can cut this a lot of ways. Like you can cut this a lot of ways. Like you can cut this a lot of ways. Like we've gotten a lot richer than Europe in we've gotten a lot richer than Europe in we've gotten a lot richer than Europe in this country. this country. this country. But, But, But, you know, this is a thing we've actually you know, this is a thing we've actually you know, this is a thing we've actually been exploring on the show recently. been exploring on the show recently. been exploring on the show recently. We've just gotten a lot richer than we We've just gotten a lot richer than we We've just gotten a lot richer than we used to be. Um, you know, maybe not as used to be. Um, you know, maybe not as used to be. Um, you know, maybe not as much as we could have. much as we could have. much as we could have. And people hate the way the economy And people hate the way the economy And people hate the way the economy feels. They I mean, everything is feels. They I mean, everything is feels. They I mean, everything is incredibly expensive, the prices are incredibly expensive, the prices are incredibly expensive, the prices are going up, they feel nickel and dimed, going up, they feel nickel and dimed, going up, they feel nickel and dimed, they can't afford a home. So, there is they can't afford a home. So, there is they can't afford a home. So, there is this there's a lot that this there's a lot that this there's a lot that your wages, your income does not say your wages, your income does not say your wages, your income does not say about how life feels.

about how life feels. about how life feels. Some of this can all be like resolved Some of this can all be like resolved Some of this can all be like resolved down to economic, but some of it can't. down to economic, but some of it can't. down to economic, but some of it can't. When you say people are six and eight, When you say people are six and eight, When you say people are six and eight, nine times richer in these places than nine times richer in these places than nine times richer in these places than we are despite the we are despite the we are despite the wealth differential, why? wealth differential, why? wealth differential, why? >> Well, look, for example, if you're >> Well, look, for example, if you're >> Well, look, for example, if you're living in Southern Europe, you could be living in Southern Europe, you could be living in Southern Europe, you could be very content with uh 600 square foot very content with uh 600 square foot very content with uh 600 square foot apartments uh where you live. apartments uh where you live. apartments uh where you live. Uh, you know, could be two, three people Uh, you know, could be two, three people Uh, you know, could be two, three people are living in stuff that we in America are living in stuff that we in America are living in stuff that we in America would, especially outside the larger would, especially outside the larger would, especially outside the larger metros, consider horrible way to live. metros, consider horrible way to live. metros, consider horrible way to live. This is complete poverty. How can you This is complete poverty. How can you This is complete poverty. How can you live in such a small space, not have a live in such a small space, not have a live in such a small space, not have a backyard, often not have a car? I'm backyard, often not have a car? I'm backyard, often not have a car? I'm using Spain as an example, but that using Spain as an example, but that using Spain as an example, but that applies to others, but Spain is one of applies to others, but Spain is one of applies to others, but Spain is one of the most has one of the most wonderful the most has one of the most wonderful the most has one of the most wonderful transit systems both within cities and transit systems both within cities and transit systems both within cities and and interconnected uh transit systems. and interconnected uh transit systems. and interconnected uh transit systems. Everything you need costs a lot less, so Everything you need costs a lot less, so Everything you need costs a lot less, so you don't need to feel like you have In you don't need to feel like you have In you don't need to feel like you have In some ways, America and China have more some ways, America and China have more some ways, America and China have more in common because there's such a lack of in common because there's such a lack of in common because there's such a lack of a safety net uh that people need to save a safety net uh that people need to save a safety net uh that people need to save constantly in order to be able to make constantly in order to be able to make constantly in order to be able to make sure that if things do turn against them sure that if things do turn against them sure that if things do turn against them that they're not one paycheck away from that they're not one paycheck away from that they're not one paycheck away from complete bankruptcy if they don't have complete bankruptcy if they don't have complete bankruptcy if they don't have if they get a if they you know go over if they get a if they you know go over if they get a if they you know go over their deductible on a horrible medical their deductible on a horrible medical their deductible on a horrible medical bill that they're not completely bill that they're not completely bill that they're not completely bankrupt. All this stuff doesn't exist bankrupt. All this stuff doesn't exist bankrupt. All this stuff doesn't exist at a place like Spain. That's where the at a place like Spain. That's where the at a place like Spain. That's where the wealth is. The wealth is being taxed at wealth is. The wealth is being taxed at wealth is. The wealth is being taxed at a different rate, obviously a much a different rate, obviously a much a different rate, obviously a much higher rate than we are, but also higher rate than we are, but also higher rate than we are, but also knowing that these aren't real problems knowing that these aren't real problems knowing that these aren't real problems that you're going to face.

that you're going to face. that you're going to face. And Spain also figured out the fact that And Spain also figured out the fact that And Spain also figured out the fact that the Spanish are also not having any the Spanish are also not having any the Spanish are also not having any children children children that actually if they let in a certain that actually if they let in a certain that actually if they let in a certain amount of immigrants life is even amount of immigrants life is even amount of immigrants life is even better. Now there's people working for better. Now there's people working for better. Now there's people working for less doing more and the society keeps less doing more and the society keeps less doing more and the society keeps expanding despite the fact that they expanding despite the fact that they expanding despite the fact that they should be shrinking. should be shrinking. should be shrinking. It's not that It's not that It's not that crazy. You just have to be a little less crazy. You just have to be a little less crazy. You just have to be a little less xenophobic and you have to figure out xenophobic and you have to figure out xenophobic and you have to figure out the things that really mean something to the things that really mean something to the things that really mean something to you. Is it having a 4,000 square foot you. Is it having a 4,000 square foot you. Is it having a 4,000 square foot McMansion half of which you don't even McMansion half of which you don't even McMansion half of which you don't even see or is it you know sitting around see or is it you know sitting around see or is it you know sitting around with friends having a botellón and with friends having a botellón and with friends having a botellón and having a open bottle in a square and having a open bottle in a square and having a open bottle in a square and enjoying their company. So I think this enjoying their company. So I think this enjoying their company. So I think this is very is very is very >> important. It's important in the >> important. It's important in the >> important. It's important in the conversation we're having about kids, conversation we're having about kids, conversation we're having about kids, about rankings, about a lot. Which is about rankings, about a lot. Which is about rankings, about a lot. Which is the role that expectations and the role that expectations and the role that expectations and positional competition positional competition positional competition play in play in play in uh degrading quality of life or or uh degrading quality of life or or uh degrading quality of life or or making it feel so hard to enjoy life. making it feel so hard to enjoy life. making it feel so hard to enjoy life. Right? Because Right? Because Right? Because you know you know you know we do buy more. We have more air we do buy more. We have more air we do buy more. We have more air conditioning here. conditioning here. conditioning here. Um I mean a lot of people die in Europe Um I mean a lot of people die in Europe Um I mean a lot of people die in Europe every year because of heat. Right? That every year because of heat. Right? That every year because of heat. Right? That doesn't happen here nearly to the same doesn't happen here nearly to the same doesn't happen here nearly to the same degree.

degree. degree. Uh we have gotten you know we want Uh we have gotten you know we want Uh we have gotten you know we want bigger homes and much of the country we bigger homes and much of the country we bigger homes and much of the country we want cars, right? New York is like a want cars, right? New York is like a want cars, right? New York is like a little bit unusual in that, but the way little bit unusual in that, but the way little bit unusual in that, but the way in which like the treadmill of what it in which like the treadmill of what it in which like the treadmill of what it just what the trappings of a good life just what the trappings of a good life just what the trappings of a good life are. are. are. And then you look around and And then you look around and And then you look around and you're unhappy and you're atomized and you're unhappy and you're atomized and you're unhappy and you're atomized and you're you know far from family and you're you know far from family and you're you know far from family and you live in a place you didn't quite you live in a place you didn't quite you live in a place you didn't quite intend to live in and and and it is I intend to live in and and and it is I intend to live in and and and it is I think this feeling and I think it's think this feeling and I think it's think this feeling and I think it's quite poisonous quite poisonous quite poisonous that you did everything right and this that you did everything right and this that you did everything right and this wasn't you were told it would be or feel wasn't you were told it would be or feel wasn't you were told it would be or feel and like there's never a resting space. and like there's never a resting space. and like there's never a resting space. >> Right. I mean look at all the young >> Right. I mean look at all the young >> Right. I mean look at all the young people who voted for Mondani, you know, people who voted for Mondani, you know, people who voted for Mondani, you know, who who who used it I think in part also as a used it I think in part also as a used it I think in part also as a protest vote against the fact that here protest vote against the fact that here protest vote against the fact that here we are professionals in New York and we we are professionals in New York and we we are professionals in New York and we can't afford to live on what we're being can't afford to live on what we're being can't afford to live on what we're being paid, you know, this is a nightmare. I paid, you know, this is a nightmare. I paid, you know, this is a nightmare. I think it's the look since you know, think it's the look since you know, think it's the look since you know, since the Thatcher Reagan years there's since the Thatcher Reagan years there's since the Thatcher Reagan years there's been a very there's been a project to been a very there's been a project to been a very there's been a project to destroy as much of the middle class as destroy as much of the middle class as destroy as much of the middle class as possible and to create a small I mean possible and to create a small I mean possible and to create a small I mean obviously that's not how it was stated obviously that's not how it was stated obviously that's not how it was stated but that was the effect of that I think but that was the effect of that I think but that was the effect of that I think was creating an upper middle class and was creating an upper middle class and was creating an upper middle class and above that still has access to stuff and above that still has access to stuff and above that still has access to stuff and then obviously people who are living in then obviously people who are living in then obviously people who are living in some degree of precarity. That's that's some degree of precarity. That's that's some degree of precarity. That's that's that's what's been happening and I think that's what's been happening and I think that's what's been happening and I think that creates the need to find even that creates the need to find even that creates the need to find even better rankings.

better rankings. better rankings. Uh but there is still a sense that life Uh but there is still a sense that life Uh but there is still a sense that life can be slow and pleasurable and I think can be slow and pleasurable and I think can be slow and pleasurable and I think that's all I really want out of life. I that's all I really want out of life. I that's all I really want out of life. I think that's all I really wanted. think that's all I really wanted. think that's all I really wanted. Growing up I had very few friends. I Growing up I had very few friends. I Growing up I had very few friends. I didn't speak English. Once I started didn't speak English. Once I started didn't speak English. Once I started making friends and once I started making friends and once I started making friends and once I started enjoying my life with them enjoying my life with them enjoying my life with them and learning to create distances between and learning to create distances between and learning to create distances between me and my parents I am more and more me and my parents I am more and more me and my parents I am more and more ready to spend my life not just thinking ready to spend my life not just thinking ready to spend my life not just thinking about happiness but actually being happy about happiness but actually being happy about happiness but actually being happy because I know how to do it. I know how because I know how to do it. I know how because I know how to do it. I know how to do it walking down Broadway looking to do it walking down Broadway looking to do it walking down Broadway looking up at a man's up at a man's up at a man's >> advice on how to be happy? >> advice on how to be happy? >> advice on how to be happy? >> It's not even advice it's it's the >> It's not even advice it's it's the >> It's not even advice it's it's the advice is you know, I mean again, I'm advice is you know, I mean again, I'm advice is you know, I mean again, I'm not trying to you know, suck up with not trying to you know, suck up with not trying to you know, suck up with this Buddhism but the advice really is this Buddhism but the advice really is this Buddhism but the advice really is present moment living. It's it's that present moment living. It's it's that present moment living. It's it's that simple. But also not saying no to things simple. But also not saying no to things simple. But also not saying no to things that are against the the Protestant that are against the the Protestant that are against the the Protestant thrust of this country. So if you're if thrust of this country. So if you're if thrust of this country. So if you're if it's 4:30 p.m. and Negroni beckons, it's 4:30 p.m. and Negroni beckons, it's 4:30 p.m. and Negroni beckons, you're all you're all by yourself. Oh, you're all you're all by yourself. Oh, you're all you're all by yourself. Oh, one shouldn't drink alone obviously but one shouldn't drink alone obviously but one shouldn't drink alone obviously but the day is beautiful. There's sunshine.

the day is beautiful. There's sunshine. the day is beautiful. There's sunshine. There's people walking by and you sit There's people walking by and you sit There's people walking by and you sit down by yourself at the bar and you down by yourself at the bar and you down by yourself at the bar and you order that Negroni and you sip it. order that Negroni and you sip it. order that Negroni and you sip it. Somebody comes up and talks to you. You Somebody comes up and talks to you. You Somebody comes up and talks to you. You talk back. You verbal at them first talk back. You verbal at them first talk back. You verbal at them first maybe in a non-aggressive way. maybe in a non-aggressive way. maybe in a non-aggressive way. Uh you do all these these I can't Uh you do all these these I can't Uh you do all these these I can't believe I'm even giving this as advice. believe I'm even giving this as advice. believe I'm even giving this as advice. >> I think the thing you do is be in the >> I think the thing you do is be in the >> I think the thing you do is be in the present moment. Having read a number of present moment. Having read a number of present moment. Having read a number of your essays now and and and a number of your essays now and and and a number of your essays now and and and a number of your books, your books, your books, I think you search out beauty. I think you search out beauty. I think you search out beauty. And I mean I I take much of what you're And I mean I I take much of what you're And I mean I I take much of what you're writing in The Essentialist. I mean you writing in The Essentialist. I mean you writing in The Essentialist. I mean you have this beautiful uh piece about like have this beautiful uh piece about like have this beautiful uh piece about like the perfect suit and the perfect the perfect suit and the perfect the perfect suit and the perfect martini. I've told you this before we martini. I've told you this before we martini. I've told you this before we started, but I feel like I got a started, but I feel like I got a started, but I feel like I got a hangover just reading your piece about hangover just reading your piece about hangover just reading your piece about your your martini runs. Um some of us your your martini runs. Um some of us your your martini runs. Um some of us may not have the same constitutions. may not have the same constitutions. may not have the same constitutions. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Uh but >> Uh but >> Uh but I I think this is important. I mean I I I think this is important. I mean I I I think this is important. I mean I could say some politics where I think we could say some politics where I think we could say some politics where I think we have sacrificed beauty as a political have sacrificed beauty as a political have sacrificed beauty as a political virtue and as a social virtue and I virtue and as a social virtue and I virtue and as a social virtue and I think it has been a mistake. But I could think it has been a mistake. But I could think it has been a mistake. But I could just say it in in [clears throat] in just say it in in [clears throat] in just say it in in [clears throat] in life. I think that life. I think that life. I think that I think it requires a certain I think it requires a certain I think it requires a certain navigation to seek out beauty, a certain navigation to seek out beauty, a certain navigation to seek out beauty, a certain intention to seek out beauty. Look, intention to seek out beauty. Look, intention to seek out beauty. Look, to to counter to counter my own some of to to counter to counter my own some of to to counter to counter my own some of my own episodes here, my own episodes here, my own episodes here, I I do think some present moments are I I do think some present moments are I I do think some present moments are better than others.

better than others. better than others. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I think decisions you make are >> And I think decisions you make are >> And I think decisions you make are meaningful. meaningful. meaningful. Trying to find ways to be in beauty, Trying to find ways to be in beauty, Trying to find ways to be in beauty, which doesn't It can be expensive, but I which doesn't It can be expensive, but I which doesn't It can be expensive, but I find Prospect Park to be like a place of find Prospect Park to be like a place of find Prospect Park to be like a place of extraordinary beauty in the spring and extraordinary beauty in the spring and extraordinary beauty in the spring and in the summer. in the summer. in the summer. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> And but I don't know. I feel like you're >> And but I don't know. I feel like you're >> And but I don't know. I feel like you're making a real argument about this. I making a real argument about this. I making a real argument about this. I want to hear more about the search for want to hear more about the search for want to hear more about the search for beauty. beauty. beauty. >> Oh, well, look, first of all, I I don't >> Oh, well, look, first of all, I I don't >> Oh, well, look, first of all, I I don't know if the search needs to be as know if the search needs to be as know if the search needs to be as systematic as as that because one can systematic as as that because one can systematic as as that because one can also create a kind of martini maxing also create a kind of martini maxing also create a kind of martini maxing when one is Yeah, or suit maxing when when one is Yeah, or suit maxing when when one is Yeah, or suit maxing when one is definitely one is definitely one is definitely >> the intention to the orientation towards >> the intention to the orientation towards >> the intention to the orientation towards >> You know, this is stuff that look, a lot >> You know, this is stuff that look, a lot >> You know, this is stuff that look, a lot of this stuff also I would say that even of this stuff also I would say that even of this stuff also I would say that even some of these hobbies they I started some of these hobbies they I started some of these hobbies they I started collecting watches for example only in collecting watches for example only in collecting watches for example only in 2016 because I knew Trump was going to 2016 because I knew Trump was going to 2016 because I knew Trump was going to win the election and I knew that I win the election and I knew that I win the election and I knew that I needed something to take my mind off needed something to take my mind off needed something to take my mind off things. Now, many people find for things. Now, many people find for things. Now, many people find for example that sports allows them watching example that sports allows them watching example that sports allows them watching sports, if not participating in them, sports, if not participating in them, sports, if not participating in them, allows them to do that. I'm not a sports allows them to do that. I'm not a sports allows them to do that. I'm not a sports person, so it doesn't do that for me. person, so it doesn't do that for me. person, so it doesn't do that for me. But, finding even a relatively hilarious But, finding even a relatively hilarious But, finding even a relatively hilarious hobby like watch collecting, first of hobby like watch collecting, first of hobby like watch collecting, first of all, watch collecting allowed me to meet all, watch collecting allowed me to meet all, watch collecting allowed me to meet I had very few male friends. Most of my I had very few male friends. Most of my I had very few male friends. Most of my friends have always been women, but when friends have always been women, but when friends have always been women, but when you go into this very male space of you go into this very male space of you go into this very male space of watch collecting, there's all these men watch collecting, there's all these men watch collecting, there's all these men who come up and they're like, you know, who come up and they're like, you know, who come up and they're like, you know, they're talking about the they're talking about the they're talking about the X34 movement on the Rolex SFG3 X34 movement on the Rolex SFG3 X34 movement on the Rolex SFG3 reference. And what they're really reference. And what they're really reference. And what they're really saying is I'm lonely and I'm just so saying is I'm lonely and I'm just so saying is I'm lonely and I'm just so happy that I can hang out with seven or happy that I can hang out with seven or happy that I can hang out with seven or eight other men who share this eight other men who share this eight other men who share this affliction. It's not even This isn't affliction. It's not even This isn't affliction. It's not even This isn't even about money. Some people will bring even about money. Some people will bring even about money. Some people will bring their Casio G-Shock a $58 watch, but their Casio G-Shock a $58 watch, but their Casio G-Shock a $58 watch, but it's a very specific $58 watch. And it it's a very specific $58 watch. And it it's a very specific $58 watch. And it makes them so happy, and you're so happy makes them so happy, and you're so happy makes them so happy, and you're so happy that they're happy about that watch, that they're happy about that watch, that they're happy about that watch, right? So, curation may be a part of it,

right? So, curation may be a part of it, right? So, curation may be a part of it, but it's not even all of it, you know. but it's not even all of it, you know. but it's not even all of it, you know. >> I'm just going to stop you cuz I'm going >> I'm just going to stop you cuz I'm going >> I'm just going to stop you cuz I'm going to actually ask a question and and be to actually ask a question and and be to actually ask a question and and be dumb about this. I don't get the watch dumb about this. I don't get the watch dumb about this. I don't get the watch thing. Help me get it. thing. Help me get it. thing. Help me get it. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> Why and not that one? I'm sure your >> Why and not that one? I'm sure your >> Why and not that one? I'm sure your watch is very nice. The Casio G-Fit, watch is very nice. The Casio G-Fit, watch is very nice. The Casio G-Fit, like why that one? like why that one? like why that one? >> I I made up a I made up a I made >> I I made up a I made up a I made >> I I made up a I made up a I made >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I I made I made up >> I I made I made up >> I I made I made up >> Help me Help me with the watch thing. >> Help me Help me with the watch thing. >> Help me Help me with the watch thing. >> Well, look, the watch I'm wearing now >> Well, look, the watch I'm wearing now >> Well, look, the watch I'm wearing now was made in Germany in in Glashütte, was made in Germany in in Glashütte, was made in Germany in in Glashütte, Germany. It's called A. Lange & Söhne. Germany. It's called A. Lange & Söhne. Germany. It's called A. Lange & Söhne. It is made by hand. The back The It is made by hand. The back The It is made by hand. The back The movement and the and the markers of it movement and the and the markers of it movement and the and the markers of it were made by hand. So, there is a woman were made by hand. So, there is a woman were made by hand. So, there is a woman who I met in Germany. Her entire job is who I met in Germany. Her entire job is who I met in Germany. Her entire job is to create a floral motif around this. It to create a floral motif around this. It to create a floral motif around this. It is a work of art. She spends hours, days is a work of art. She spends hours, days is a work of art. She spends hours, days even, sitting there and freestyling this even, sitting there and freestyling this even, sitting there and freestyling this beautiful flower, right? And there's a beautiful flower, right? And there's a beautiful flower, right? And there's a number of workers there. number of workers there. number of workers there. >> it? >> it? >> it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why is Why you telling me about this >> Why is Why you telling me about this >> Why is Why you telling me about this flower? flower? flower? >> A number of workers there who make this. >> A number of workers there who make this. >> A number of workers there who make this. And there's a number of workers who And there's a number of workers who And there's a number of workers who create the striping, called Glashütte create the striping, called Glashütte create the striping, called Glashütte striping, that creates so that when you striping, that creates so that when you striping, that creates so that when you when you um bend the watch backwards and when you um bend the watch backwards and when you um bend the watch backwards and forwards, you see a different kind of forwards, you see a different kind of forwards, you see a different kind of shimmer across the across the dial.

shimmer across the across the dial. shimmer across the across the dial. >> The back is much more interesting than >> The back is much more interesting than >> The back is much more interesting than the front. the front. the front. >> Exactly. Well, that's part of the That's >> Exactly. Well, that's part of the That's >> Exactly. Well, that's part of the That's part of the You want to be very part of the You want to be very part of the You want to be very uh you don't want to show off in front. uh you don't want to show off in front. uh you don't want to show off in front. This is not a watch that anyone's going This is not a watch that anyone's going This is not a watch that anyone's going to rip off your wrist, you know. But in to rip off your wrist, you know. But in to rip off your wrist, you know. But in the back there's this secret there's the back there's this secret there's the back there's this secret there's almost a city going on here. A vibrating almost a city going on here. A vibrating almost a city going on here. A vibrating city. When you watch them put the escape city. When you watch them put the escape city. When you watch them put the escape wheel, which is this thing that is wheel, which is this thing that is wheel, which is this thing that is spinning, the balance onto it, and you spinning, the balance onto it, and you spinning, the balance onto it, and you see it spin, it's almost like it's been see it spin, it's almost like it's been see it spin, it's almost like it's been given a soul because all of a sudden given a soul because all of a sudden given a soul because all of a sudden this static static movement has come this static static movement has come this static static movement has come alive and it's spinning, different gears alive and it's spinning, different gears alive and it's spinning, different gears are turning. It's all mechanical. One of are turning. It's all mechanical. One of are turning. It's all mechanical. One of the other reasons I love watches is it the other reasons I love watches is it the other reasons I love watches is it keeps me from using my phone. Because keeps me from using my phone. Because keeps me from using my phone. Because one of the biggest things I would take one of the biggest things I would take one of the biggest things I would take out of my Oh, what time is it? I take out of my Oh, what time is it? I take out of my Oh, what time is it? I take out my phone and then I spend 7 hours on out my phone and then I spend 7 hours on out my phone and then I spend 7 hours on Twitter arguing with some fascist. And Twitter arguing with some fascist. And Twitter arguing with some fascist. And now I don't have to do that. Oh, it's now I don't have to do that. Oh, it's now I don't have to do that. Oh, it's 1:20. Done. 1:20. Done. 1:20. Done. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> How did you get into them? >> How did you get into them? >> How did you get into them? >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, it's funny cuz I went to a very horrible it's funny cuz I went to a very horrible it's funny cuz I went to a very horrible yeshiva when I was a kid and I was yeshiva when I was a kid and I was yeshiva when I was a kid and I was bullied all the time cuz I was the bullied all the time cuz I was the bullied all the time cuz I was the stinky Russian bear. I wore a giant stinky Russian bear. I wore a giant stinky Russian bear. I wore a giant shapka, the giant fur hat and stuff and shapka, the giant fur hat and stuff and shapka, the giant fur hat and stuff and nobody was friends with me but my nobody was friends with me but my nobody was friends with me but my somebody gets my grandma bought me a somebody gets my grandma bought me a somebody gets my grandma bought me a Casio melody alarm watch and it played Casio melody alarm watch and it played Casio melody alarm watch and it played uh all songs from around the world. This uh all songs from around the world. This uh all songs from around the world. This is on Japan was very ascendant and is on Japan was very ascendant and is on Japan was very ascendant and creative technology nobody else could.

creative technology nobody else could. creative technology nobody else could. And one of the songs was Kalinka And one of the songs was Kalinka And one of the songs was Kalinka Malinka, the Russian song. Kalinka Malinka, the Russian song. Kalinka Malinka, the Russian song. Kalinka Malinka Malinka Maya. So I would hide in Malinka Malinka Maya. So I would hide in Malinka Malinka Maya. So I would hide in the bathroom away from all the bullying the bathroom away from all the bullying the bathroom away from all the bullying Jewish queen's kids and listen to that Jewish queen's kids and listen to that Jewish queen's kids and listen to that song and it would take me back to a song and it would take me back to a song and it would take me back to a world which I understood. Not that I world which I understood. Not that I world which I understood. Not that I missed the politics of Soviet Union but missed the politics of Soviet Union but missed the politics of Soviet Union but I missed having a language and a culture I missed having a language and a culture I missed having a language and a culture that I understood. So this one watch had that I understood. So this one watch had that I understood. So this one watch had this in me and then, you know, and then this in me and then, you know, and then this in me and then, you know, and then of course a bully stole the watch and my of course a bully stole the watch and my of course a bully stole the watch and my grandmother who spoke three words of grandmother who spoke three words of grandmother who spoke three words of English had to go English had to go English had to go to the principal's office and say, to the principal's office and say, to the principal's office and say, "Boychik steal watch." She "Boychik steal watch." She "Boychik steal watch." She and the principal made the bully give it and the principal made the bully give it and the principal made the bully give it back. So back. So back. So also, this is one of the other things also, this is one of the other things also, this is one of the other things that happens this is bit of an aside but that happens this is bit of an aside but that happens this is bit of an aside but that happens when when you live life that happens when when you live life that happens when when you live life fully and amongst people instead of just fully and amongst people instead of just fully and amongst people instead of just staying working at home, socializing on staying working at home, socializing on staying working at home, socializing on the internet, you actually get stories. the internet, you actually get stories. the internet, you actually get stories. Stories happen. Interesting things Stories happen. Interesting things Stories happen. Interesting things happen. happen. happen. >> I I to go back to the the search for for >> I I to go back to the the search for for >> I I to go back to the the search for for beauty here, the orientation towards beauty here, the orientation towards beauty here, the orientation towards towards beauty here. Cuz one of the towards beauty here. Cuz one of the towards beauty here. Cuz one of the things that you're describing in your things that you're describing in your things that you're describing in your love of that watch, love of that watch, love of that watch, which which which I feel pulled towards. I found reading I feel pulled towards. I found reading I feel pulled towards. I found reading The Sentimentalist, again, the rest you The Sentimentalist, again, the rest you The Sentimentalist, again, the rest you can't buy yet, but you will be able to can't buy yet, but you will be able to can't buy yet, but you will be able to soon.

soon. soon. >> November. >> November. >> November. >> Uh I found it very inspiring. And what >> Uh I found it very inspiring. And what >> Uh I found it very inspiring. And what And what it pulled me towards was craft. And what it pulled me towards was craft. And what it pulled me towards was craft. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You have an adoration in that book >> You have an adoration in that book >> You have an adoration in that book >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> across the watch essay, the suits essay, >> across the watch essay, the suits essay, >> across the watch essay, the suits essay, the martinis essay, the martinis essay, the martinis essay, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> of craft. >> of craft. >> of craft. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're You are uh drawn to human beings >> You're You are uh drawn to human beings >> You're You are uh drawn to human beings >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> doing beautiful things that have taken >> doing beautiful things that have taken >> doing beautiful things that have taken them a lot of work to do at that level. them a lot of work to do at that level. them a lot of work to do at that level. >> And a lot of training to >> And a lot of training to >> And a lot of training to do that. do that. do that. >> Tell me about that. >> Tell me about that. >> Tell me about that. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, look, I Am I the greatest writer that look, I Am I the greatest writer that look, I Am I the greatest writer that ever lived? No. But, I have worked my ever lived? No. But, I have worked my ever lived? No. But, I have worked my butt off to craft sentences, and then to butt off to craft sentences, and then to butt off to craft sentences, and then to make sure that the sentences are crafted make sure that the sentences are crafted make sure that the sentences are crafted into paragraphs. This is into paragraphs. This is into paragraphs. This is you you know, there's the original fun you you know, there's the original fun you you know, there's the original fun of writing a sentence or paragraph. Oh, of writing a sentence or paragraph. Oh, of writing a sentence or paragraph. Oh, look at me, I got this great idea. And look at me, I got this great idea. And look at me, I got this great idea. And then you return to it like, what the then you return to it like, what the then you return to it like, what the hell, this is the ugliest sentence ever hell, this is the ugliest sentence ever hell, this is the ugliest sentence ever written. So, you craft it over and over, written. So, you craft it over and over, written. So, you craft it over and over, you chisel away here, you expand there, you chisel away here, you expand there, you chisel away here, you expand there, it's endless. it's endless. it's endless. I love people to do this. But, you don't I love people to do this. But, you don't I love people to do this. But, you don't have to be a writer or even an artist, have to be a writer or even an artist, have to be a writer or even an artist, you know, you [clears throat] can be you know, you [clears throat] can be you know, you [clears throat] can be somebody who crafts, who designs a somebody who crafts, who designs a somebody who crafts, who designs a beautiful part of a watch movement. You beautiful part of a watch movement. You beautiful part of a watch movement. You could be an incredible mixologist. Part could be an incredible mixologist. Part could be an incredible mixologist. Part of the my great great fun of writing of the my great great fun of writing of the my great great fun of writing that martini article is I hung out with that martini article is I hung out with that martini article is I hung out with people who make some of the best people who make some of the best people who make some of the best martinis ever. Uh And in the end, maybe martinis ever. Uh And in the end, maybe martinis ever. Uh And in the end, maybe the best martinis are made in Shibuya at the best martinis are made in Shibuya at the best martinis are made in Shibuya at something called the Zinc Bar in in something called the Zinc Bar in in something called the Zinc Bar in in Tokyo. But, um Tokyo. But, um Tokyo. But, um >> Why?

>> Why? >> Why? >> I I I have no idea what It It really >> I I I have no idea what It It really >> I I I have no idea what It It really This is one of those things where in the This is one of those things where in the This is one of those things where in the same way that I don't know quite how to same way that I don't know quite how to same way that I don't know quite how to fashion this uh this piece of this fashion this uh this piece of this fashion this uh this piece of this watch, I also don't know I make my own watch, I also don't know I make my own watch, I also don't know I make my own martinis, they're pretty good. Uh but, martinis, they're pretty good. Uh but, martinis, they're pretty good. Uh but, there's there's skills and proprietary there's there's skills and proprietary there's there's skills and proprietary formulas that just make for a a better formulas that just make for a a better formulas that just make for a a better martini in in both directions. For martini in in both directions. For martini in in both directions. For example, uh a very dry martini or a very example, uh a very dry martini or a very example, uh a very dry martini or a very wet martini. There's a great martini at wet martini. There's a great martini at wet martini. There's a great martini at the Eel Bar in New York. Um the Eel Bar in New York. Um the Eel Bar in New York. Um so, it's finding a place where the so, it's finding a place where the so, it's finding a place where the person has a history to what they're person has a history to what they're person has a history to what they're doing and has So, often it's been doing and has So, often it's been doing and has So, often it's been perfected over generations and then perfected over generations and then perfected over generations and then figuring out what they do really well. figuring out what they do really well. figuring out what they do really well. And that is beauty. And that is beauty. And that is beauty. >> I wonder how much you think beauty and >> I wonder how much you think beauty and >> I wonder how much you think beauty and efficiency are opposed. efficiency are opposed. efficiency are opposed. >> Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. >> Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. >> Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. >> Cuz what that is and the reason that I >> Cuz what that is and the reason that I >> Cuz what that is and the reason that I got to that in my head was that as you got to that in my head was that as you got to that in my head was that as you would expect with me, I went to Japan would expect with me, I went to Japan would expect with me, I went to Japan and was like, "How do all these things and was like, "How do all these things and was like, "How do all these things exist?" And it turns out they have um exist?" And it turns out they have um exist?" And it turns out they have um you know, in at least many parts and you know, in at least many parts and you know, in at least many parts and Tokyo is one of them. Tokyo is one of them. Tokyo is one of them. They have a public policy structure that They have a public policy structure that They have a public policy structure that just makes it quite affordable to have just makes it quite affordable to have just makes it quite affordable to have shops, shops, shops, restaurants that not that many people restaurants that not that many people restaurants that not that many people are going to shop or eat at, right? They are going to shop or eat at, right? They are going to shop or eat at, right? They have decided to not maximize the have decided to not maximize the have decided to not maximize the efficiency of retail space. They've efficiency of retail space. They've efficiency of retail space. They've decided to allow people to do a lot of decided to allow people to do a lot of decided to allow people to do a lot of very specific and unusual things. Tokyo very specific and unusual things. Tokyo very specific and unusual things. Tokyo also pulled a tremendous amount. It is also pulled a tremendous amount. It is also pulled a tremendous amount. It is It's an important part of it and and It's an important part of it and and It's an important part of it and and Chris Murphy, the senator just gave this Chris Murphy, the senator just gave this Chris Murphy, the senator just gave this uh interesting speech um at a uh interesting speech um at a uh interesting speech um at a commencement about you know, the problem commencement about you know, the problem commencement about you know, the problem with the American pursuit of efficiency.

with the American pursuit of efficiency. with the American pursuit of efficiency. >> You are about to step into a world that >> You are about to step into a world that >> You are about to step into a world that prizes efficiency and the annihilation prizes efficiency and the annihilation prizes efficiency and the annihilation of drift and friction above all else. of drift and friction above all else. of drift and friction above all else. Everyday technology companies are Everyday technology companies are Everyday technology companies are rolling out new products that cut the rolling out new products that cut the rolling out new products that cut the time it takes to do everything in your time it takes to do everything in your time it takes to do everything in your life from eating to shopping to dating life from eating to shopping to dating life from eating to shopping to dating from getting one place to another. These from getting one place to another. These from getting one place to another. These aren't products to make you happier. aren't products to make you happier. aren't products to make you happier. These are products designed to make you These are products designed to make you These are products designed to make you more efficient. more efficient. more efficient. >> And it's not that efficiency is never >> And it's not that efficiency is never >> And it's not that efficiency is never good. It's often great. But good. It's often great. But good. It's often great. But the most beautiful things are not going the most beautiful things are not going the most beautiful things are not going to be efficient. to be efficient. to be efficient. >> Yes, but look, this is funny. And I >> Yes, but look, this is funny. And I >> Yes, but look, this is funny. And I agree 100% that this is part of a policy agree 100% that this is part of a policy agree 100% that this is part of a policy thing. But look, we also suck at things thing. But look, we also suck at things thing. But look, we also suck at things that are super efficient that we should that are super efficient that we should that are super efficient that we should have. For example, uh rail. You know, have. For example, uh rail. You know, have. For example, uh rail. You know, talking about Japan but also talking talking about Japan but also talking talking about Japan but also talking about Spain, all the countries we talked about Spain, all the countries we talked about Spain, all the countries we talked about previously, Italy, which has, you about previously, Italy, which has, you about previously, Italy, which has, you know, technologically is not the most know, technologically is not the most know, technologically is not the most advanced country in the world. It has an advanced country in the world. It has an advanced country in the world. It has an excellent excellent excellent >> I'm trying to fix that, man. I'm working >> I'm trying to fix that, man. I'm working >> I'm trying to fix that, man. I'm working on it. [laughter] on it. [laughter] on it. [laughter] >> Okay. Please, please do, because I love >> Okay. Please, please do, because I love >> Okay. Please, please do, because I love high-speed rail. But, um my friends in high-speed rail. But, um my friends in high-speed rail. But, um my friends in Japan have told me several things. First Japan have told me several things. First Japan have told me several things. First of all, one is that in Japanese uh of all, one is that in Japanese uh of all, one is that in Japanese uh culture, craftsmanship and small store culture, craftsmanship and small store culture, craftsmanship and small store craftsmanship on a on a smaller scale craftsmanship on a on a smaller scale craftsmanship on a on a smaller scale has always been viewed as even higher has always been viewed as even higher has always been viewed as even higher than the merchant. In many other than the merchant. In many other than the merchant. In many other societies, the merchant class is is you societies, the merchant class is is you societies, the merchant class is is you know, is above the craftspeople. The know, is above the craftspeople. The know, is above the craftspeople. The craftspeople and artisans are seen as craftspeople and artisans are seen as craftspeople and artisans are seen as being below that. So, you want policies being below that. So, you want policies being below that. So, you want policies that sustain this kind of thing, right?

that sustain this kind of thing, right? that sustain this kind of thing, right? There's just this great sense of pride There's just this great sense of pride There's just this great sense of pride in in making very particular things as in in making very particular things as in in making very particular things as beautiful as possible. What efficiency beautiful as possible. What efficiency beautiful as possible. What efficiency does, I think, is it it's takes things does, I think, is it it's takes things does, I think, is it it's takes things it takes smaller things that are done it takes smaller things that are done it takes smaller things that are done well, and it says, "Well, we're going to well, and it says, "Well, we're going to well, and it says, "Well, we're going to do a 8 million examples of that." And do a 8 million examples of that." And do a 8 million examples of that." And then, of course, it's not going to it's then, of course, it's not going to it's then, of course, it's not going to it's not going to be that that good. not going to be that that good. not going to be that that good. >> There's another side to this, which can >> There's another side to this, which can >> There's another side to this, which can be a darker side, which is how much, be a darker side, which is how much, be a darker side, which is how much, when we are talking about things we when we are talking about things we when we are talking about things we make. make. make. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is beauty a function of scarcity, which >> Is beauty a function of scarcity, which >> Is beauty a function of scarcity, which also makes it a function of of cost, also makes it a function of of cost, also makes it a function of of cost, right? Things are are beautiful, we right? Things are are beautiful, we right? Things are are beautiful, we honor them. And probably because not honor them. And probably because not honor them. And probably because not that many people can have them. Uh if that many people can have them. Uh if that many people can have them. Uh if the watch you had was mass-produced and the watch you had was mass-produced and the watch you had was mass-produced and everywhere, you know, it might be no everywhere, you know, it might be no everywhere, you know, it might be no less beautiful in some way, but it would less beautiful in some way, but it would less beautiful in some way, but it would not be rare, right? Scarcity creates not be rare, right? Scarcity creates not be rare, right? Scarcity creates meaning in things, and we do compete meaning in things, and we do compete meaning in things, and we do compete with each other. So, how how do you with each other. So, how how do you with each other. So, how how do you think about this relationship between think about this relationship between think about this relationship between what we give this kind of honor to and what we give this kind of honor to and what we give this kind of honor to and admiration to, the the kinds of elite admiration to, the the kinds of elite admiration to, the the kinds of elite craftsmanship we're talking about? craftsmanship we're talking about? craftsmanship we're talking about? And its relationship is a positional And its relationship is a positional And its relationship is a positional good in some ways, where we we love it good in some ways, where we we love it good in some ways, where we we love it because there's not that many of it. And because there's not that many of it. And because there's not that many of it. And if there was more of it, we wouldn't if there was more of it, we wouldn't if there was more of it, we wouldn't love it as much.

love it as much. love it as much. >> A lot of the generations that should be >> A lot of the generations that should be >> A lot of the generations that should be making them are dying out. There's making them are dying out. There's making them are dying out. There's actually some of them may die out just actually some of them may die out just actually some of them may die out just because there won't be enough people to because there won't be enough people to because there won't be enough people to service these watches, to to make these service these watches, to to make these service these watches, to to make these suits, you know. Um but look, as much as suits, you know. Um but look, as much as suits, you know. Um but look, as much as I love watches, and as much as I love my I love watches, and as much as I love my I love watches, and as much as I love my crazy blue suit, I love eating more. And crazy blue suit, I love eating more. And crazy blue suit, I love eating more. And I also think that that is absolute I also think that that is absolute I also think that that is absolute artistry. You can walk around from artistry. You can walk around from artistry. You can walk around from Elmhurst to Astoria. I've done this Elmhurst to Astoria. I've done this Elmhurst to Astoria. I've done this exactly this. And go from Nepalese to exactly this. And go from Nepalese to exactly this. And go from Nepalese to Filipino to Filipino to Filipino to Egyptian to Greek cuisine in a day. You Egyptian to Greek cuisine in a day. You Egyptian to Greek cuisine in a day. You can wander around and you can see can wander around and you can see can wander around and you can see people, grandmothers, their people, grandmothers, their people, grandmothers, their granddaughters making art. granddaughters making art. granddaughters making art. There's no rarity to it. I mean, as long There's no rarity to it. I mean, as long There's no rarity to it. I mean, as long as there's papayas in the world, these as there's papayas in the world, these as there's papayas in the world, these cuisines will exist. But they do cuisines will exist. But they do cuisines will exist. But they do something so something so something so you so loving. You just you so loving. You just you so loving. You just you marvel at it. you marvel at it. you marvel at it. Last time I walked down Roosevelt Avenue Last time I walked down Roosevelt Avenue Last time I walked down Roosevelt Avenue on a weekend, it was half the people on a weekend, it was half the people on a weekend, it was half the people because this this was when ice was because this this was when ice was because this this was when ice was especially prevalent. So you could see especially prevalent. So you could see especially prevalent. So you could see how we're trying, you know, how we're trying, you know, how we're trying, you know, this administration is trying to destroy this administration is trying to destroy this administration is trying to destroy beauty. The beauty of the fact that so beauty. The beauty of the fact that so beauty. The beauty of the fact that so many of us are from different places and many of us are from different places and many of us are from different places and create things that are beautiful, but create things that are beautiful, but create things that are beautiful, but are not indigenous to to to America. But are not indigenous to to to America. But are not indigenous to to to America. But what I found is what I found is what I found is through my very long research with very through my very long research with very through my very long research with very very wealthy people, these are some of very wealthy people, these are some of very wealthy people, these are some of the least happy people I know, the least happy people I know, the least happy people I know, by far. Every aspect of their life is by far. Every aspect of their life is by far. Every aspect of their life is horrible. So when we talk about, you horrible. So when we talk about, you horrible. So when we talk about, you know, what you know, yes, having more know, what you know, yes, having more know, what you know, yes, having more money, better, I guess, but to a point.

money, better, I guess, but to a point. money, better, I guess, but to a point. And after a certain while, it's worse. And after a certain while, it's worse. And after a certain while, it's worse. It's much much worse. Cuz so many of the It's much much worse. Cuz so many of the It's much much worse. Cuz so many of the people I would meet, right, who are people I would meet, right, who are people I would meet, right, who are hedge fund managers and they spend their hedge fund managers and they spend their hedge fund managers and they spend their whole day competing with one another whole day competing with one another whole day competing with one another over different trades, different bets as over different trades, different bets as over different trades, different bets as they call them, right? And then what do they call them, right? And then what do they call them, right? And then what do they do when it's over? They go and play they do when it's over? They go and play they do when it's over? They go and play poker for $10 million stakes with each poker for $10 million stakes with each poker for $10 million stakes with each other, you know? The competition has to other, you know? The competition has to other, you know? The competition has to continue forever. And there's no continue forever. And there's no continue forever. And there's no appreciation of anything else. You sit appreciation of anything else. You sit appreciation of anything else. You sit in a horrible club, you eat garbage, and in a horrible club, you eat garbage, and in a horrible club, you eat garbage, and you compete with each other some more. you compete with each other some more. you compete with each other some more. That's what America thinks is the That's what America thinks is the That's what America thinks is the highest level of success possible. highest level of success possible. highest level of success possible. You're so successful if you can do that You're so successful if you can do that You're so successful if you can do that that you should probably run the whole that you should probably run the whole that you should probably run the whole country, right? country, right? country, right? >> I know The Sentients is not meant to be >> I know The Sentients is not meant to be >> I know The Sentients is not meant to be a self-help book. I know you I know a self-help book. I know you I know a self-help book. I know you I know you're not presenting yourself here as a you're not presenting yourself here as a you're not presenting yourself here as a guru. guru. guru. But let's say you're somebody who reads But let's say you're somebody who reads But let's say you're somebody who reads it or is listening to this and thinking, it or is listening to this and thinking, it or is listening to this and thinking, yeah, I don't actually yeah, I don't actually yeah, I don't actually seek out that much beauty in my life. I seek out that much beauty in my life. I seek out that much beauty in my life. I don't have a lot of money. You don't don't have a lot of money. You don't don't have a lot of money. You don't have like you're not you're not able to have like you're not you're not able to have like you're not you're not able to go traveling to the great capitals of go traveling to the great capitals of go traveling to the great capitals of the world. the world. the world. But what do you tell a student in one of But what do you tell a student in one of But what do you tell a student in one of your classes? It's like, "Where do I your classes? It's like, "Where do I your classes? It's like, "Where do I start?" start?" start?" >> You know, it's interesting. I think a >> You know, it's interesting. I think a >> You know, it's interesting. I think a lot of young people have already figured lot of young people have already figured lot of young people have already figured out that the life that is the out that the life that is the out that the life that is the corporations are asking them to live is corporations are asking them to live is corporations are asking them to live is not a good life.

not a good life. not a good life. And I think that's why, And I think that's why, And I think that's why, you know, you'd think that, for example, you know, you'd think that, for example, you know, you'd think that, for example, we talk about watches, you think this we talk about watches, you think this we talk about watches, you think this would be an old person, old man's hobby, would be an old person, old man's hobby, would be an old person, old man's hobby, right? But often when I go to these very right? But often when I go to these very right? But often when I go to these very secret meetings of watch enthusiasts secret meetings of watch enthusiasts secret meetings of watch enthusiasts that happen in New York, they have to be that happen in New York, they have to be that happen in New York, they have to be secret because, you know, we all get secret because, you know, we all get secret because, you know, we all get robbed, that's the end of the world. robbed, that's the end of the world. robbed, that's the end of the world. Um but so many of them are super young. Um but so many of them are super young. Um but so many of them are super young. And they also hate their phones. They And they also hate their phones. They And they also hate their phones. They don't want to look at those things. They don't want to look at those things. They don't want to look at those things. They want to look at their wrists and see want to look at their wrists and see want to look at their wrists and see something beautiful on them. Um if, you something beautiful on them. Um if, you something beautiful on them. Um if, you know, every American metro has know, every American metro has know, every American metro has incredible inexpensive food that will incredible inexpensive food that will incredible inexpensive food that will blow your mind. People complain about blow your mind. People complain about blow your mind. People complain about Houston to me. This is the best Houston to me. This is the best Houston to me. This is the best Vietnamese food outside of Vietnam. Any Vietnamese food outside of Vietnam. Any Vietnamese food outside of Vietnam. Any city, even those cities designed for the city, even those cities designed for the city, even those cities designed for the car and the parking lot, even those have car and the parking lot, even those have car and the parking lot, even those have incredible moments of beauty. I was just incredible moments of beauty. I was just incredible moments of beauty. I was just in Uzbekistan, one of the poorest in Uzbekistan, one of the poorest in Uzbekistan, one of the poorest countries in the world. countries in the world. countries in the world. I've never seen cities that beautiful. I I've never seen cities that beautiful. I I've never seen cities that beautiful. I I I Bukhara and I I Bukhara and I I Bukhara and Samarkand and Samarkand and Samarkand and Khiva, these are Khiva, these are Khiva, these are works of magnificence. Magnificence.

works of magnificence. Magnificence. works of magnificence. Magnificence. To pass through them, To pass through them, To pass through them, wow. wow. wow. What an honor it is to be alive in the What an honor it is to be alive in the What an honor it is to be alive in the world and see things like that. world and see things like that. world and see things like that. >> That's a good place to end. I also have >> That's a good place to end. I also have >> That's a good place to end. I also have a final question. What are a few books a final question. What are a few books a final question. What are a few books you recommend to the audience? you recommend to the audience? you recommend to the audience? >> So, I'm going to start with a book by >> So, I'm going to start with a book by >> So, I'm going to start with a book by one of my students. I love my students. one of my students. I love my students. one of my students. I love my students. Such good work. Such good work. Such good work. Columbia graduate a couple years ago. Columbia graduate a couple years ago. Columbia graduate a couple years ago. The book is called Men Like Hours. Her The book is called Men Like Hours. Her The book is called Men Like Hours. Her name is Bindu Bansinath. I hope I name is Bindu Bansinath. I hope I name is Bindu Bansinath. I hope I pronounce that correctly. pronounce that correctly. pronounce that correctly. Set in New Jersey. I love anything set Set in New Jersey. I love anything set Set in New Jersey. I love anything set in New Jersey. Talk about dystopia, in New Jersey. Talk about dystopia, in New Jersey. Talk about dystopia, right? That is the best. right? That is the best. right? That is the best. Really dark humor, but as dark as it is Really dark humor, but as dark as it is Really dark humor, but as dark as it is funny. I I can't say enough about it. funny. I I can't say enough about it. funny. I I can't say enough about it. Uh, second book was coming out I think Uh, second book was coming out I think Uh, second book was coming out I think in August and that's by my mentor, uh, in August and that's by my mentor, uh, in August and that's by my mentor, uh, Chang-rae Lee, the wonderful Chang-rae Lee, the wonderful Chang-rae Lee, the wonderful Korean-American writer. Uh, A Tender Age Korean-American writer. Uh, A Tender Age Korean-American writer. Uh, A Tender Age I think is the name of the book. There I think is the name of the book. There I think is the name of the book. There was an excerpt in The New Yorker. This I was an excerpt in The New Yorker. This I was an excerpt in The New Yorker. This I think is his most, um, think is his most, um, think is his most, um, memoiristic novel. I think a lot of his memoiristic novel. I think a lot of his memoiristic novel. I think a lot of his own background goes into this. He meant own background goes into this. He meant own background goes into this. He meant so much to me so much to me so much to me both as a teacher and as a friend and as both as a teacher and as a friend and as both as a teacher and as a friend and as a sensualist. He is as sensual as one a sensualist. He is as sensual as one a sensualist. He is as sensual as one gets living in Northern California. He's gets living in Northern California. He's gets living in Northern California. He's incredible. Uh, and the third book is incredible. Uh, and the third book is incredible. Uh, and the third book is Julia Ioffe's, uh, Motherland, which was Julia Ioffe's, uh, Motherland, which was Julia Ioffe's, uh, Motherland, which was a National Book Award finalist, an old a National Book Award finalist, an old a National Book Award finalist, an old friend of mine, also Soviet-born, friend of mine, also Soviet-born, friend of mine, also Soviet-born, uh, Moscow to My Leningrad and it's a uh, Moscow to My Leningrad and it's a uh, Moscow to My Leningrad and it's a book about book about book about uh, what the Soviet, you know, the uh, what the Soviet, you know, the uh, what the Soviet, you know, the Soviet Union was ostensibly this Soviet Union was ostensibly this Soviet Union was ostensibly this feminist progressive society, but guess feminist progressive society, but guess feminist progressive society, but guess what? It treated women like [ __ ] This what? It treated women like [ __ ] This what? It treated women like [ __ ] This book really helped me understand a lot book really helped me understand a lot book really helped me understand a lot of my own background and also about how,

of my own background and also about how, of my own background and also about how, uh, what the Soviet Union did to people uh, what the Soviet Union did to people uh, what the Soviet Union did to people on every level. Uh, here through the on every level. Uh, here through the on every level. Uh, here through the prism of women, but also through Jewish prism of women, but also through Jewish prism of women, but also through Jewish women. It is a remarkable book. women. It is a remarkable book. women. It is a remarkable book. >> Gary Shteyngart, thank you very much. >> Gary Shteyngart, thank you very much. >> Gary Shteyngart, thank you very much. >> Thank you.