What Has Chris Rufo Wrought? | The Ezra Klein Show

You could really make a case that Chris You could really make a case that Chris Rufo is the most successful activist Rufo is the most successful activist Rufo is the most successful activist certainly on the right of this era. He certainly on the right of this era. He certainly on the right of this era. He initially rose in prominence as the initially rose in prominence as the initially rose in prominence as the central strategist in the rights central strategist in the rights central strategist in the rights counterattack on DEI initiatives. He's counterattack on DEI initiatives. He's counterattack on DEI initiatives. He's very much behind a lot of the very much behind a lot of the very much behind a lot of the demonization of critical race theory. demonization of critical race theory. demonization of critical race theory. >> Critical race theory has become in >> Critical race theory has become in >> Critical race theory has become in essence the default ideology of the essence the default ideology of the essence the default ideology of the federal bureaucracy and is now being federal bureaucracy and is now being federal bureaucracy and is now being weaponized against the American people. weaponized against the American people. weaponized against the American people. He claims CRT is actually a He claims CRT is actually a He claims CRT is actually a revolutionary program that would revolutionary program that would revolutionary program that would overturn the principles of the overturn the principles of the overturn the principles of the declaration and destroy the remaining declaration and destroy the remaining declaration and destroy the remaining structure of the constitution structure of the constitution structure of the constitution >> and he built that into a series of >> and he built that into a series of >> and he built that into a series of campaigns. They've actually changed campaigns. They've actually changed campaigns. They've actually changed policy. It's very influential in Ronda policy. It's very influential in Ronda policy. It's very influential in Ronda Santis' governorhip and kind of running Santis' governorhip and kind of running Santis' governorhip and kind of running Claudine Gay out of Harvard. Pushing out Claudine Gay out of Harvard. Pushing out Claudine Gay out of Harvard. Pushing out Claudine Gay, toppling the president of Claudine Gay, toppling the president of Claudine Gay, toppling the president of Harvard for a journalist like me is a Harvard for a journalist like me is a Harvard for a journalist like me is a big win. Then in Donald Trump's second big win. Then in Donald Trump's second big win. Then in Donald Trump's second term, quite a lot has come out of Rufo's term, quite a lot has come out of Rufo's term, quite a lot has come out of Rufo's work. For better and from my work. For better and from my work. For better and from my perspective, for worse, from a lot of perspective, for worse, from a lot of perspective, for worse, from a lot of Trump's early executive orders, Trump's early executive orders, Trump's early executive orders, >> we've ended the tyranny of so-called >> we've ended the tyranny of so-called >> we've ended the tyranny of so-called diversity, equity, and inclusion diversity, equity, and inclusion diversity, equity, and inclusion policies all across the entire federal policies all across the entire federal policies all across the entire federal government and indeed the private sector government and indeed the private sector government and indeed the private sector and our military and our military and our military >> to some of the work that led to the ICE >> to some of the work that led to the ICE >> to some of the work that led to the ICE and CBP deployments to Minnesota. This and CBP deployments to Minnesota. This and CBP deployments to Minnesota. This week, I published an exclusive story week, I published an exclusive story week, I published an exclusive story exposing the Somali fraud rings in exposing the Somali fraud rings in exposing the Somali fraud rings in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which are Minneapolis, Minnesota, which are Minneapolis, Minnesota, which are stealing billions of dollars from stealing billions of dollars from stealing billions of dollars from American taxpayers. Whatever else you American taxpayers. Whatever else you American taxpayers. Whatever else you want to say about him, Rufo has quite want to say about him, Rufo has quite want to say about him, Rufo has quite significantly affected the world we live

significantly affected the world we live significantly affected the world we live in. He's also, if you listen to him, and in. He's also, if you listen to him, and in. He's also, if you listen to him, and he's a very, very smart and often quite he's a very, very smart and often quite he's a very, very smart and often quite honest analyst of his own side. One honest analyst of his own side. One honest analyst of his own side. One thing I appreciate about Rufo is he thing I appreciate about Rufo is he thing I appreciate about Rufo is he always says what he is doing clearly and always says what he is doing clearly and always says what he is doing clearly and in public. He seems uneasy. Gone are the in public. He seems uneasy. Gone are the in public. He seems uneasy. Gone are the days when Tucker Carlson's nightly days when Tucker Carlson's nightly days when Tucker Carlson's nightly monologue set the agenda for the entire monologue set the agenda for the entire monologue set the agenda for the entire right. You can feel a sort of disqu, a right. You can feel a sort of disqu, a right. You can feel a sort of disqu, a sense that maybe the right, this right, sense that maybe the right, this right, sense that maybe the right, this right, is not becoming what he hoped it would is not becoming what he hoped it would is not becoming what he hoped it would be. Now we find ourselves in an be. Now we find ourselves in an be. Now we find ourselves in an escalating war of influencers trading escalating war of influencers trading escalating war of influencers trading conspiracies and counterconspiracies conspiracies and counterconspiracies conspiracies and counterconspiracies that its attentional andformational that its attentional andformational that its attentional andformational sphere is polluted. Driving the right sphere is polluted. Driving the right sphere is polluted. Driving the right into all different kinds of rabbit holes into all different kinds of rabbit holes into all different kinds of rabbit holes and dead ends that the administration is and dead ends that the administration is and dead ends that the administration is not getting as much done as he had hoped not getting as much done as he had hoped not getting as much done as he had hoped intended intended intended tried to help it do. And so I wanted to tried to help it do. And so I wanted to tried to help it do. And so I wanted to have Rufo on not because we agree on have Rufo on not because we agree on have Rufo on not because we agree on things. We obviously don't. You'll hear things. We obviously don't. You'll hear things. We obviously don't. You'll hear that. Not because I'm trying to talk him that. Not because I'm trying to talk him that. Not because I'm trying to talk him into my way of seeing things. I'm not into my way of seeing things. I'm not into my way of seeing things. I'm not going to do that. But both to understand going to do that. But both to understand going to do that. But both to understand how he understands what he is doing and how he understands what he is doing and how he understands what he is doing and also to interrogate it. To ask if the also to interrogate it. To ask if the also to interrogate it. To ask if the tactics he is using are actually working tactics he is using are actually working tactics he is using are actually working or if he's scoring short-term victories or if he's scoring short-term victories or if he's scoring short-term victories at the cost of helping to seed profound at the cost of helping to seed profound at the cost of helping to seed profound long-term problems. Rufo is a senior long-term problems. Rufo is a senior long-term problems. Rufo is a senior fellow and director of the initiative on fellow and director of the initiative on fellow and director of the initiative on critical race theory at the Manhattan critical race theory at the Manhattan critical race theory at the Manhattan Institute. He's a contributing editor of Institute. He's a contributing editor of Institute. He's a contributing editor of City Journal. He is the co-host of the City Journal. He is the co-host of the City Journal. He is the co-host of the podcast Rufo and Lomez. And he's the podcast Rufo and Lomez. And he's the podcast Rufo and Lomez. And he's the author of America's Cultural Revolution:

author of America's Cultural Revolution: author of America's Cultural Revolution: How the Radical Left Conquered How the Radical Left Conquered How the Radical Left Conquered Everything. As always, my email, Ezra Everything. As always, my email, Ezra Everything. As always, my email, Ezra Kleinshow Times.com. Chris Rufo, welcome to the show. Good to Chris Rufo, welcome to the show. Good to be with you. So, I want to begin with a be with you. So, I want to begin with a be with you. So, I want to begin with a piece you wrote in early 2024 titled The piece you wrote in early 2024 titled The piece you wrote in early 2024 titled The New Right Activism, a manifesto for the New Right Activism, a manifesto for the New Right Activism, a manifesto for the counterrevolution. counterrevolution. counterrevolution. And there are a lot of interesting And there are a lot of interesting And there are a lot of interesting things in there, but the one I wanted to things in there, but the one I wanted to things in there, but the one I wanted to begin with is you write no institution begin with is you write no institution begin with is you write no institution can be neutral. So, tell me why. Yeah, I can be neutral. So, tell me why. Yeah, I can be neutral. So, tell me why. Yeah, I mean that that's a an obvious reality if mean that that's a an obvious reality if mean that that's a an obvious reality if you think about it for longer than a you think about it for longer than a you think about it for longer than a minute. And I think it it's important to minute. And I think it it's important to minute. And I think it it's important to say because there's this mythology that say because there's this mythology that say because there's this mythology that we have in the United States and it's a we have in the United States and it's a we have in the United States and it's a small Liberal mythology that small Liberal mythology that small Liberal mythology that institutions can be kind of neutral institutions can be kind of neutral institutions can be kind of neutral orbiters that they could be uh valueless orbiters that they could be uh valueless orbiters that they could be uh valueless vessels vessels vessels um that achieve some kind of pragmatic um that achieve some kind of pragmatic um that achieve some kind of pragmatic or instrumental ends. And my point is or instrumental ends. And my point is or instrumental ends. And my point is that no in practice institutions always that no in practice institutions always that no in practice institutions always have values whether they're implicit uh have values whether they're implicit uh have values whether they're implicit uh or explicit. Uh and for those of us who or explicit. Uh and for those of us who or explicit. Uh and for those of us who are on the outside of many powerful are on the outside of many powerful are on the outside of many powerful institutions, it's there's a lot of institutions, it's there's a lot of institutions, it's there's a lot of value in simply revealing the underlying value in simply revealing the underlying value in simply revealing the underlying reality. And in fact, political fights reality. And in fact, political fights reality. And in fact, political fights are at heart the fight for who are at heart the fight for who are at heart the fight for who determines the values, what values are determines the values, what values are determines the values, what values are are are installed in an institution. Um are are installed in an institution. Um are are installed in an institution. Um and then therefore what kind of and then therefore what kind of and then therefore what kind of decisions get made.

decisions get made. decisions get made. >> So I take a lot of the arguments about >> So I take a lot of the arguments about >> So I take a lot of the arguments about institutions particularly within like institutions particularly within like institutions particularly within like the broad philosophical tradition of the broad philosophical tradition of the broad philosophical tradition of liberalism argue that they can have liberalism argue that they can have liberalism argue that they can have neutral treatment. They can have neutral neutral treatment. They can have neutral neutral treatment. They can have neutral rules and a lot of for better and worse rules and a lot of for better and worse rules and a lot of for better and worse procedure in these institutions. procedure in these institutions. procedure in these institutions. Everything from notice and comment Everything from notice and comment Everything from notice and comment periods to different ways that they have periods to different ways that they have periods to different ways that they have to create transparency are about trying to create transparency are about trying to create transparency are about trying to create that capacity for people to be to create that capacity for people to be to create that capacity for people to be neutrally treated. Do you think that's neutrally treated. Do you think that's neutrally treated. Do you think that's possible? possible? possible? >> No. I I think neutral is the wrong word. >> No. I I think neutral is the wrong word. >> No. I I think neutral is the wrong word. I think what we're looking for is I think what we're looking for is I think what we're looking for is impartial. And I would agree with that. impartial. And I would agree with that. impartial. And I would agree with that. Everyone should be treated equally as an Everyone should be treated equally as an Everyone should be treated equally as an individual under law, but that's individual under law, but that's individual under law, but that's impartiality, not neutrality. So in a impartiality, not neutrality. So in a impartiality, not neutrality. So in a criminal case, um if you sentence criminal case, um if you sentence criminal case, um if you sentence somebody to the death penalty, you're somebody to the death penalty, you're somebody to the death penalty, you're not treating them neutally. You're not treating them neutally. You're not treating them neutally. You're actually taking their life because the actually taking their life because the actually taking their life because the underlying law is a kind of moral code. underlying law is a kind of moral code. underlying law is a kind of moral code. Uh and so I I think neutral and Uh and so I I think neutral and Uh and so I I think neutral and impartial are similar but in this case impartial are similar but in this case impartial are similar but in this case uh kind of critically different. So uh kind of critically different. So uh kind of critically different. So another argument you make in that piece another argument you make in that piece another argument you make in that piece is you say the popular slogan that facts is you say the popular slogan that facts is you say the popular slogan that facts don't care about your feelings betrays don't care about your feelings betrays don't care about your feelings betrays similar problems. slogan being Ben similar problems. slogan being Ben similar problems. slogan being Ben Shapiro's slogan. In reality, feelings Shapiro's slogan. In reality, feelings Shapiro's slogan. In reality, feelings almost always overpower facts. Reason is almost always overpower facts. Reason is almost always overpower facts. Reason is a slave of the passions.

a slave of the passions. a slave of the passions. >> Yeah, that that's true. And uh we we'll >> Yeah, that that's true. And uh we we'll >> Yeah, that that's true. And uh we we'll caveat. We love Ben Shapiro. We're we're caveat. We love Ben Shapiro. We're we're caveat. We love Ben Shapiro. We're we're Ben Shapiro fans, of course. Um but I Ben Shapiro fans, of course. Um but I Ben Shapiro fans, of course. Um but I think that that he's he's very wrong on think that that he's he's very wrong on think that that he's he's very wrong on that. And I think conservatives have that. And I think conservatives have that. And I think conservatives have made a fundamental error in latching on made a fundamental error in latching on made a fundamental error in latching on to that. And really what it is, it's to that. And really what it is, it's to that. And really what it is, it's it's a rationalization for uh losing. it's a rationalization for uh losing. it's a rationalization for uh losing. It's like uh yes we may have lost the It's like uh yes we may have lost the It's like uh yes we may have lost the great political question which operates great political question which operates great political question which operates on emotions or passions um but you know on emotions or passions um but you know on emotions or passions um but you know we have the facts on our side and if we have the facts on our side and if we have the facts on our side and if only people would read our you know only people would read our you know only people would read our you know white paper our kind of regression white paper our kind of regression white paper our kind of regression analysis our rigorous logical analysis our rigorous logical analysis our rigorous logical argumentation argumentation argumentation uh then we would be we would be uh then we would be we would be uh then we would be we would be vindicated. Um but look while we should vindicated. Um but look while we should vindicated. Um but look while we should have the facts on our side while we have the facts on our side while we have the facts on our side while we should use logic by itself it's should use logic by itself it's should use logic by itself it's insufficient and in fact politics insufficient and in fact politics insufficient and in fact politics operates on a deeper level an emotional operates on a deeper level an emotional operates on a deeper level an emotional level and politics occurs on the on the level and politics occurs on the on the level and politics occurs on the on the field of sentiment and public opinion field of sentiment and public opinion field of sentiment and public opinion much more on the field of you know uh much more on the field of you know uh much more on the field of you know uh kind of abstract argumentation at the kind of abstract argumentation at the kind of abstract argumentation at the top.

top. top. >> So and then you go on in the same piece >> So and then you go on in the same piece >> So and then you go on in the same piece to make an argument for agaprop. So to make an argument for agaprop. So to make an argument for agaprop. So aprop old Soviet Union term for aprop old Soviet Union term for aprop old Soviet Union term for agitation and propaganda. Yeah. Mashed agitation and propaganda. Yeah. Mashed agitation and propaganda. Yeah. Mashed up together. up together. up together. >> And it doesn't have a great reputation. >> And it doesn't have a great reputation. >> And it doesn't have a great reputation. Agyprop is usually not a term of Agyprop is usually not a term of Agyprop is usually not a term of endearment. But you say agyprop doesn't endearment. But you say agyprop doesn't endearment. But you say agyprop doesn't mean sacrificing the truth, but rather mean sacrificing the truth, but rather mean sacrificing the truth, but rather channeling the truth toward victory. So channeling the truth toward victory. So channeling the truth toward victory. So how do you define what agit prop is? And how do you define what agit prop is? And how do you define what agit prop is? And and what are you trying to explain to and what are you trying to explain to and what are you trying to explain to your fellow conservatives about how to your fellow conservatives about how to your fellow conservatives about how to use it? So, right, I mean, if you're use it? So, right, I mean, if you're use it? So, right, I mean, if you're obviously if you're conducting say obviously if you're conducting say obviously if you're conducting say propaganda on behalf of a falsehood or propaganda on behalf of a falsehood or propaganda on behalf of a falsehood or evil or an unjust cause, it's bad. My evil or an unjust cause, it's bad. My evil or an unjust cause, it's bad. My point is that that's not always point is that that's not always point is that that's not always necessarily true. If you are pursuing a necessarily true. If you are pursuing a necessarily true. If you are pursuing a cause that is good and true and cause that is good and true and cause that is good and true and beautiful. If you look at the word beautiful. If you look at the word beautiful. If you look at the word propaganda, um the original meaning it propaganda, um the original meaning it propaganda, um the original meaning it comes from the Catholic Church. Uh and comes from the Catholic Church. Uh and comes from the Catholic Church. Uh and it was the propagation of the the it was the propagation of the the it was the propagation of the the gospels, the propagation of the the gospels, the propagation of the the gospels, the propagation of the the truth. And so these are concepts that we truth. And so these are concepts that we truth. And so these are concepts that we can recover because the reality is that can recover because the reality is that can recover because the reality is that all politics and the age of the printing all politics and the age of the printing all politics and the age of the printing press and onward depends on propaganda.

press and onward depends on propaganda. press and onward depends on propaganda. And how do you define what propaganda And how do you define what propaganda And how do you define what propaganda itself is? Propaganda is is is simply itself is? Propaganda is is is simply itself is? Propaganda is is is simply the the method of uh communicating a the the method of uh communicating a the the method of uh communicating a political narrative. Again, we're using political narrative. Again, we're using political narrative. Again, we're using neutral, I'm going to say a true neutral, I'm going to say a true neutral, I'm going to say a true narrative um uh to a mass audience narrative um uh to a mass audience narrative um uh to a mass audience through the means of modern media. It's through the means of modern media. It's through the means of modern media. It's a rhetorical argument a rhetorical argument a rhetorical argument intended to persuade the majority of intended to persuade the majority of intended to persuade the majority of people to cobble together a majority of people to cobble together a majority of people to cobble together a majority of public opinion. And look, this is again public opinion. And look, this is again public opinion. And look, this is again for conservatives especially not new. Uh for conservatives especially not new. Uh for conservatives especially not new. Uh you know the the founding fathers of you know the the founding fathers of you know the the founding fathers of this country wrote to each other about this country wrote to each other about this country wrote to each other about this. They wrote in public about this. this. They wrote in public about this. this. They wrote in public about this. Um we seem to have forgotten some of Um we seem to have forgotten some of Um we seem to have forgotten some of these lessons uh of how politics these lessons uh of how politics these lessons uh of how politics actually works. You have to persuade actually works. You have to persuade actually works. You have to persuade people. What is persuasion? It's people. What is persuasion? It's people. What is persuasion? It's rhetoric. What is rhetoric at an rhetoric. What is rhetoric at an rhetoric. What is rhetoric at an industrial scale? It's propaganda. industrial scale? It's propaganda. industrial scale? It's propaganda. >> You've been connecting the question of >> You've been connecting the question of >> You've been connecting the question of propaganda to whether or not the end it propaganda to whether or not the end it propaganda to whether or not the end it is aimed at is true. How do you think is aimed at is true. How do you think is aimed at is true. How do you think about when you have untrue propaganda about when you have untrue propaganda about when you have untrue propaganda unleashing intense passions that's bad unleashing intense passions that's bad unleashing intense passions that's bad >> towards a true aim?

>> towards a true aim? >> towards a true aim? >> Yeah. Look, I I don't think that that's >> Yeah. Look, I I don't think that that's >> Yeah. Look, I I don't think that that's good. I I think that um good. I I think that um good. I I think that um Aristotle has a great line in his book Aristotle has a great line in his book Aristotle has a great line in his book on rhetoric where he says the truth has on rhetoric where he says the truth has on rhetoric where he says the truth has a tendency to prevail. I love that. I a tendency to prevail. I love that. I a tendency to prevail. I love that. I love that because it's like love that because it's like love that because it's like >> the truth doesn't always prevail. We can >> the truth doesn't always prevail. We can >> the truth doesn't always prevail. We can look through history. We can look at look through history. We can look at look through history. We can look at history uh you know history uh you know history uh you know >> and sometimes lies prevail. >> and sometimes lies prevail. >> and sometimes lies prevail. >> Uh I think in 2020 uh to 2024 during the >> Uh I think in 2020 uh to 2024 during the >> Uh I think in 2020 uh to 2024 during the woke era many lies prevailed. But what woke era many lies prevailed. But what woke era many lies prevailed. But what is so interesting about that line is the is so interesting about that line is the is so interesting about that line is the truth has a tendency to prevail. What I truth has a tendency to prevail. What I truth has a tendency to prevail. What I take from it is that therefore you take from it is that therefore you take from it is that therefore you always want to be on the side of the always want to be on the side of the always want to be on the side of the truth. Even for your own pragmatic truth. Even for your own pragmatic truth. Even for your own pragmatic political ends you always want to be on political ends you always want to be on political ends you always want to be on the side of the truth. And so look, the side of the truth. And so look, the side of the truth. And so look, certainly there are untrue elements uh certainly there are untrue elements uh certainly there are untrue elements uh or narratives on the right and on the or narratives on the right and on the or narratives on the right and on the left. I I I think a political movement left. I I I think a political movement left. I I I think a political movement to succeed has to have the discipline to succeed has to have the discipline to succeed has to have the discipline and integrity um to to go after it um and integrity um to to go after it um and integrity um to to go after it um but always to remember that if the truth but always to remember that if the truth but always to remember that if the truth has a tendency to prevail, that's where has a tendency to prevail, that's where has a tendency to prevail, that's where you want to be. And then your piece you want to be. And then your piece you want to be. And then your piece builds to this idea that quote in order builds to this idea that quote in order builds to this idea that quote in order to realize the ultimate promise of the to realize the ultimate promise of the to realize the ultimate promise of the political, there also must be something political, there also must be something political, there also must be something higher, a tilos, which is the Greek word higher, a tilos, which is the Greek word higher, a tilos, which is the Greek word for something like an ultimate end, for something like an ultimate end, for something like an ultimate end, >> a final cause.

>> a final cause. >> a final cause. >> A final clause. >> A final clause. >> A final clause. >> So one reason I've been focusing on this >> So one reason I've been focusing on this >> So one reason I've been focusing on this piece is to understand the way you do piece is to understand the way you do piece is to understand the way you do your work and what your work is. So what your work and what your work is. So what your work and what your work is. So what is your tilos? is your tilos? is your tilos? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, politically speaking, let's say, let's politically speaking, let's say, let's politically speaking, let's say, let's leave it at that. leave it at that. leave it at that. >> Yeah. I don't mean your family and >> Yeah. I don't mean your family and >> Yeah. I don't mean your family and >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think I want to >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think I want to >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think I want to have a restoration of the principles of have a restoration of the principles of have a restoration of the principles of our republic. And so, if you're thinking our republic. And so, if you're thinking our republic. And so, if you're thinking about our republic, you're thinking about our republic, you're thinking about our republic, you're thinking about those guiding principles where about those guiding principles where about those guiding principles where they have strayed over the last 250 they have strayed over the last 250 they have strayed over the last 250 years. Um, uh, I want to have a years. Um, uh, I want to have a years. Um, uh, I want to have a restoration of that. And so, I I'm restoration of that. And so, I I'm restoration of that. And so, I I'm constantly looking backward at the constantly looking backward at the constantly looking backward at the founding and trying to understand it founding and trying to understand it founding and trying to understand it better and understand how to bring those better and understand how to bring those better and understand how to bring those principles forward. And so, you want to principles forward. And so, you want to principles forward. And so, you want to have the principles of liberty and have the principles of liberty and have the principles of liberty and equality. You want to have a a equality. You want to have a a equality. You want to have a a functioning healthy republic. Uh and you functioning healthy republic. Uh and you functioning healthy republic. Uh and you want to have a culture that is organized want to have a culture that is organized want to have a culture that is organized according to virtue. Um and in according to virtue. Um and in according to virtue. Um and in particular, you know, the virtues of our particular, you know, the virtues of our particular, you know, the virtues of our western Anglo-American civilization. western Anglo-American civilization. western Anglo-American civilization. And through my personal observations And through my personal observations And through my personal observations around the world as well as my study of around the world as well as my study of around the world as well as my study of the past, I think the Anglo-American the past, I think the Anglo-American the past, I think the Anglo-American civilization, the principles that have civilization, the principles that have civilization, the principles that have animated our republic for the last 250 animated our republic for the last 250 animated our republic for the last 250 years are still uh the best that we years are still uh the best that we years are still uh the best that we could hope for. So from that could hope for. So from that could hope for. So from that perspective, we're 17 months into Donald perspective, we're 17 months into Donald perspective, we're 17 months into Donald Trump's second term. Is is that all Trump's second term. Is is that all Trump's second term. Is is that all >> it feels like longer.

>> it feels like longer. >> it feels like longer. >> Tell me about it. >> Tell me about it. >> Tell me about it. >> It feels like longer for you guys >> It feels like longer for you guys >> It feels like longer for you guys probably. probably. probably. >> Is this administration building the kind >> Is this administration building the kind >> Is this administration building the kind of country you want to see? of country you want to see? of country you want to see? >> Yeah, I think so. And here's how I would >> Yeah, I think so. And here's how I would >> Yeah, I think so. And here's how I would here's how I would assess it here's how I would assess it here's how I would assess it on the elements within article 2. So the on the elements within article 2. So the on the elements within article 2. So the executive power I think Donald Trump has executive power I think Donald Trump has executive power I think Donald Trump has done almost everything he could do. done almost everything he could do. done almost everything he could do. great people with the administration great people with the administration great people with the administration have done almost everything they could have done almost everything they could have done almost everything they could do uh to advance this kind of vision of do uh to advance this kind of vision of do uh to advance this kind of vision of the country. Um and the country. Um and the country. Um and >> liberty, equality, virtue. >> liberty, equality, virtue. >> liberty, equality, virtue. >> Yes. And uh and I think that the >> Yes. And uh and I think that the >> Yes. And uh and I think that the momentum was strong year one. I think momentum was strong year one. I think momentum was strong year one. I think it's trailed off in year two. And you it's trailed off in year two. And you it's trailed off in year two. And you know, could that be the executive has know, could that be the executive has know, could that be the executive has lost some of its energy? Yes. Uh could lost some of its energy? Yes. Uh could lost some of its energy? Yes. Uh could it be that you know, public opinion has it be that you know, public opinion has it be that you know, public opinion has has has has softened? Yes. Could it be has has has softened? Yes. Could it be has has has softened? Yes. Could it be some of the foreign adventures or some of the foreign adventures or some of the foreign adventures or misadventures depending on who you talk misadventures depending on who you talk misadventures depending on who you talk to have distracted focus? I think yes. to have distracted focus? I think yes. to have distracted focus? I think yes. But ultimately the problem is that the But ultimately the problem is that the But ultimately the problem is that the president has a majority in Congress but president has a majority in Congress but president has a majority in Congress but not 60 votes in the Senate. And so not 60 votes in the Senate. And so not 60 votes in the Senate. And so fundamental transformative legislation fundamental transformative legislation fundamental transformative legislation that I would like to see is impossible.

that I would like to see is impossible. that I would like to see is impossible. >> Make the case to me that Donald Trump is >> Make the case to me that Donald Trump is >> Make the case to me that Donald Trump is restoring virtue. restoring virtue. restoring virtue. This is a hard case because what you're This is a hard case because what you're This is a hard case because what you're going to say is that Trump does not going to say is that Trump does not going to say is that Trump does not exhibit the kind of Christian virtues in exhibit the kind of Christian virtues in exhibit the kind of Christian virtues in his personal life, right? Uh I his personal life, right? Uh I his personal life, right? Uh I >> I'm not even thinking about his personal >> I'm not even thinking about his personal >> I'm not even thinking about his personal life. I'm thinking about his public life. I'm thinking about his public life. I'm thinking about his public life. life. life. >> Okay. Well, you you you tell me. Uh uh >> Okay. Well, you you you tell me. Uh uh >> Okay. Well, you you you tell me. Uh uh >> I I didn't claim he exhibits virtue. So >> I I didn't claim he exhibits virtue. So >> I I didn't claim he exhibits virtue. So you you said you said that they are you you said you said that they are you you said you said that they are doing a pretty good job bringing back uh doing a pretty good job bringing back uh doing a pretty good job bringing back uh liberty, equality, and virtue. liberty, equality, and virtue. liberty, equality, and virtue. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Make the case to me. >> Make the case to me. >> Make the case to me. >> Sure. I'll make you the case and I'll >> Sure. I'll make you the case and I'll >> Sure. I'll make you the case and I'll I'll I'll make it through the the I'll I'll make it through the the I'll I'll make it through the the particular example that I'm most particular example that I'm most particular example that I'm most familiar with. So, one of my big familiar with. So, one of my big familiar with. So, one of my big campaigns the last couple years was the campaigns the last couple years was the campaigns the last couple years was the fight to abolish DEI. fight to abolish DEI. fight to abolish DEI. And so, DEI was this idea that had been And so, DEI was this idea that had been And so, DEI was this idea that had been kind of germinating in the in the in in kind of germinating in the in the in in kind of germinating in the in the in in the '9s, in the 2000s, but really the '9s, in the 2000s, but really the '9s, in the 2000s, but really exploded into public life with universal exploded into public life with universal exploded into public life with universal adoption by most large institutions adoption by most large institutions adoption by most large institutions after 2020. And it was this idea that after 2020. And it was this idea that after 2020. And it was this idea that was very simple um that there are was very simple um that there are was very simple um that there are oppressor groups and oppressed groups in oppressor groups and oppressed groups in oppressor groups and oppressed groups in the United States because of the the United States because of the the United States because of the historical realities of our country. And historical realities of our country. And historical realities of our country. And therefore to achieve uh to to move therefore to achieve uh to to move therefore to achieve uh to to move towards equal outcomes, you have to towards equal outcomes, you have to towards equal outcomes, you have to treat individuals uh unequally according treat individuals uh unequally according treat individuals uh unequally according to their group identity. And the to their group identity. And the to their group identity. And the president on day one uh issued an president on day one uh issued an president on day one uh issued an executive order that was very much in executive order that was very much in executive order that was very much in line with the work that we have been line with the work that we have been line with the work that we have been doing um to to go and kind of wipe out doing um to to go and kind of wipe out doing um to to go and kind of wipe out the DEI bureaucracy throughout the the DEI bureaucracy throughout the the DEI bureaucracy throughout the federal government. And so in that case, federal government. And so in that case, federal government. And so in that case, I think that you could argue that the I think that you could argue that the I think that you could argue that the principle of equality and impartiality

principle of equality and impartiality principle of equality and impartiality as we were discussing earlier um had as we were discussing earlier um had as we were discussing earlier um had been restored. Not not totally. We still been restored. Not not totally. We still been restored. Not not totally. We still have some problems with the underlying have some problems with the underlying have some problems with the underlying statutory law. Uh just recently in the statutory law. Uh just recently in the statutory law. Uh just recently in the in the last couple of weeks, the in the last couple of weeks, the in the last couple of weeks, the Department of Justice has taken a Department of Justice has taken a Department of Justice has taken a buzzsaw to so-called disperate impact buzzsaw to so-called disperate impact buzzsaw to so-called disperate impact doctrine. Same idea. If there are doctrine. Same idea. If there are doctrine. Same idea. If there are unequal outcomes, it must therefore by unequal outcomes, it must therefore by unequal outcomes, it must therefore by definition be because of discrimination. definition be because of discrimination. definition be because of discrimination. Therefore, you have to remedy it by Therefore, you have to remedy it by Therefore, you have to remedy it by treating people unequally. And so in treating people unequally. And so in treating people unequally. And so in this case, I think, you know, and this case, I think, you know, and this case, I think, you know, and because this is the issue I've worked on because this is the issue I've worked on because this is the issue I've worked on and uh and have been passionate about, I and uh and have been passionate about, I and uh and have been passionate about, I think that you can make an argument that think that you can make an argument that think that you can make an argument that liberty, equality, virtue uh have been liberty, equality, virtue uh have been liberty, equality, virtue uh have been restored. Are there other problems? Of restored. Are there other problems? Of restored. Are there other problems? Of course. Are we all the way there? No. course. Are we all the way there? No. course. Are we all the way there? No. Um, but on the issues that I personally Um, but on the issues that I personally Um, but on the issues that I personally care about, that I personally have care about, that I personally have care about, that I personally have worked on, uh, I think the country is in worked on, uh, I think the country is in worked on, uh, I think the country is in a much better place than it was, uh, two a much better place than it was, uh, two a much better place than it was, uh, two years ago. years ago. years ago. >> I guess one thing I think about when I >> I guess one thing I think about when I >> I guess one thing I think about when I think about Donald Trump and virtue is think about Donald Trump and virtue is think about Donald Trump and virtue is corruption. So I see Trump taking corruption. So I see Trump taking corruption. So I see Trump taking uh, luxury aircraft from cutter. I see uh, luxury aircraft from cutter. I see uh, luxury aircraft from cutter. I see his family getting involved in all kinds his family getting involved in all kinds his family getting involved in all kinds of crypto schemes where the investors in of crypto schemes where the investors in of crypto schemes where the investors in their crypto schemes in many cases seem their crypto schemes in many cases seem their crypto schemes in many cases seem to be people who have business before to be people who have business before to be people who have business before the family, business before the country.

the family, business before the country. the family, business before the country. Uh the New Yorker sort of did a I think Uh the New Yorker sort of did a I think Uh the New Yorker sort of did a I think a quite conservative tallying up of how a quite conservative tallying up of how a quite conservative tallying up of how much money the Trump family and Trump much money the Trump family and Trump much money the Trump family and Trump have made or how much their net worth have made or how much their net worth have made or how much their net worth has increased that has been connected to has increased that has been connected to has increased that has been connected to the presidency. The number was about $4 the presidency. The number was about $4 the presidency. The number was about $4 billion in this term. billion in this term. billion in this term. It doesn't when I look at it look It doesn't when I look at it look It doesn't when I look at it look virtuous. virtuous. virtuous. >> Yeah. Look, um here's here's my general >> Yeah. Look, um here's here's my general >> Yeah. Look, um here's here's my general perspective and and I'll lay it out to perspective and and I'll lay it out to perspective and and I'll lay it out to you as honestly as I can. Um there are you as honestly as I can. Um there are you as honestly as I can. Um there are the issues that I work on that I'm the issues that I work on that I'm the issues that I work on that I'm passionate about that I feel like I have passionate about that I feel like I have passionate about that I feel like I have some control over or influence over and some control over or influence over and some control over or influence over and there are the issues that I don't. And I there are the issues that I don't. And I there are the issues that I don't. And I think I've been very straightforward in think I've been very straightforward in think I've been very straightforward in the areas where I think the the areas where I think the the areas where I think the administration has fallen short. And administration has fallen short. And administration has fallen short. And certainly the perception and we'll see certainly the perception and we'll see certainly the perception and we'll see over time I'm sure that there will be uh over time I'm sure that there will be uh over time I'm sure that there will be uh you know inquiries, investigations, etc. you know inquiries, investigations, etc. you know inquiries, investigations, etc. into these business enterprises um is into these business enterprises um is into these business enterprises um is bad. You're not going to get me to bad. You're not going to get me to bad. You're not going to get me to defend it. I'm perfectly happy calling defend it. I'm perfectly happy calling defend it. I'm perfectly happy calling out uh the administration where I think out uh the administration where I think out uh the administration where I think it's strayed or aired. Um and this is it's strayed or aired. Um and this is it's strayed or aired. Um and this is one of those places. I mean I remember one of those places. I mean I remember one of those places. I mean I remember the the crypto launch. It was during the the the crypto launch. It was during the the the crypto launch. It was during the transition I think where they launched transition I think where they launched transition I think where they launched the Trumpcoin, right? And it's like, I the Trumpcoin, right? And it's like, I the Trumpcoin, right? And it's like, I don't like this. I don't want to see don't like this. I don't want to see don't like this. I don't want to see this. They shouldn't be doing that. Um, this. They shouldn't be doing that. Um, this. They shouldn't be doing that. Um, and yeah, you're not going to get me to and yeah, you're not going to get me to and yeah, you're not going to get me to defend it.

defend it. defend it. >> Well, one of the things I'm I'm touching >> Well, one of the things I'm I'm touching >> Well, one of the things I'm I'm touching into here is I've been watching your into here is I've been watching your into here is I've been watching your show and I see a growing vein of show and I see a growing vein of show and I see a growing vein of discomfort from you on at least what discomfort from you on at least what discomfort from you on at least what parts of the right are becoming. parts of the right are becoming. parts of the right are becoming. >> Sure. So in December he tweeted, "The >> Sure. So in December he tweeted, "The >> Sure. So in December he tweeted, "The right's media apparatus is how the right right's media apparatus is how the right right's media apparatus is how the right teaches its followers how to think, and teaches its followers how to think, and teaches its followers how to think, and it's currently getting consumed by it's currently getting consumed by it's currently getting consumed by conspiracy, psychodrama, and tabloid conspiracy, psychodrama, and tabloid conspiracy, psychodrama, and tabloid conflicts. If left unchecked, it will conflicts. If left unchecked, it will conflicts. If left unchecked, it will turn the audience into the equivalent of turn the audience into the equivalent of turn the audience into the equivalent of a third world click farm. So what's Tell a third world click farm. So what's Tell a third world click farm. So what's Tell me about that. What's been alarming me about that. What's been alarming me about that. What's been alarming you?" Yeah. Yeah. That Yeah. Sometimes, you?" Yeah. Yeah. That Yeah. Sometimes, you?" Yeah. Yeah. That Yeah. Sometimes, man, you hear your quotes back, you're man, you hear your quotes back, you're man, you hear your quotes back, you're like, "Oh, that's kind of uh Yeah. Very like, "Oh, that's kind of uh Yeah. Very like, "Oh, that's kind of uh Yeah. Very very very lively language." Yeah. This very very lively language." Yeah. This very very lively language." Yeah. This is a huge problem. And um I don't Okay, is a huge problem. And um I don't Okay, is a huge problem. And um I don't Okay, so I I'll put it this way. There's a so I I'll put it this way. There's a so I I'll put it this way. There's a growing split between the institutional growing split between the institutional growing split between the institutional right and the online right. The right and the online right. The right and the online right. The institutional right I think actually institutional right I think actually institutional right I think actually deserves credit for gatekeeping some of deserves credit for gatekeeping some of deserves credit for gatekeeping some of these um kind of bad tendencies out of these um kind of bad tendencies out of these um kind of bad tendencies out of our institutions and uh and I think our institutions and uh and I think our institutions and uh and I think that's good. However, the online that's good. However, the online that's good. However, the online >> right being like Fox News and >> right being like Fox News and >> right being like Fox News and >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> conservative think tanks, uh, you know, >> conservative think tanks, uh, you know, >> conservative think tanks, uh, you know, the Manhattan Institute, all all of the the Manhattan Institute, all all of the the Manhattan Institute, all all of the kind of the institutional layer of the kind of the institutional layer of the kind of the institutional layer of the professional right, let's say, I think professional right, let's say, I think professional right, let's say, I think has done a very good job at gatekeeping has done a very good job at gatekeeping has done a very good job at gatekeeping some of these bad psychological and some of these bad psychological and some of these bad psychological and political tendencies out of our political tendencies out of our political tendencies out of our institutions.

institutions. institutions. The problem that we're grappling with The problem that we're grappling with The problem that we're grappling with though is that the traditional way of though is that the traditional way of though is that the traditional way of thinking about political media is always thinking about political media is always thinking about political media is always as an outgrowth of institutions. So as an outgrowth of institutions. So as an outgrowth of institutions. So you'd have your uh your magazines, your you'd have your uh your magazines, your you'd have your uh your magazines, your newsletters, your think tank, you know, newsletters, your think tank, you know, newsletters, your think tank, you know, policy papers. The internet has created, policy papers. The internet has created, policy papers. The internet has created, you know, kind of benefits, costs and you know, kind of benefits, costs and you know, kind of benefits, costs and benefits. One of the benefits is the benefits. One of the benefits is the benefits. One of the benefits is the kind of ease of communication with a kind of ease of communication with a kind of ease of communication with a large audience. But one of the negatives large audience. But one of the negatives large audience. But one of the negatives is that um you have the proliferation of is that um you have the proliferation of is that um you have the proliferation of insanity, madness, uh psychopathology. insanity, madness, uh psychopathology. insanity, madness, uh psychopathology. And on the right, I think this went into And on the right, I think this went into And on the right, I think this went into hyperdrive after the assassination of hyperdrive after the assassination of hyperdrive after the assassination of Charlie Kirk was bubbling up before Charlie Kirk was bubbling up before Charlie Kirk was bubbling up before then, but really then took a turn. And then, but really then took a turn. And then, but really then took a turn. And so you have this tendency on the right so you have this tendency on the right so you have this tendency on the right historically. historically. historically. You have like a a kind of bircher You have like a a kind of bircher You have like a a kind of bircher tendency uh in the post-war era and then tendency uh in the post-war era and then tendency uh in the post-war era and then it kind of waxes and waines over time. it kind of waxes and waines over time. it kind of waxes and waines over time. And right now you have um in the online And right now you have um in the online And right now you have um in the online right someone like Candace Owens who has right someone like Candace Owens who has right someone like Candace Owens who has like departed so far from reality and like departed so far from reality and like departed so far from reality and yet has a massive audience. Um, and I yet has a massive audience. Um, and I yet has a massive audience. Um, and I think that it's doing a disservice to think that it's doing a disservice to think that it's doing a disservice to the public and even more say kind of the public and even more say kind of the public and even more say kind of self-interestedly doing a very grave self-interestedly doing a very grave self-interestedly doing a very grave disservice to the right because if you disservice to the right because if you disservice to the right because if you can't teach the your audience, your can't teach the your audience, your can't teach the your audience, your followers, your political base how to followers, your political base how to followers, your political base how to think properly, they're not going to think properly, they're not going to think properly, they're not going to behave properly and you're not going to behave properly and you're not going to behave properly and you're not going to have proper outcomes. And so I think have proper outcomes. And so I think have proper outcomes. And so I think it's important for us on the right to it's important for us on the right to it's important for us on the right to have this internal fight, which is to

have this internal fight, which is to have this internal fight, which is to say if you think that, you know, Israel say if you think that, you know, Israel say if you think that, you know, Israel assassinated Charlie Kirk or, you know, assassinated Charlie Kirk or, you know, assassinated Charlie Kirk or, you know, whatever kind of handful of conspiracies whatever kind of handful of conspiracies whatever kind of handful of conspiracies you have, you know, you're you're you're you have, you know, you're you're you're you have, you know, you're you're you're on the outside. You're not within the on the outside. You're not within the on the outside. You're not within the movement. And uh and this is a fight movement. And uh and this is a fight movement. And uh and this is a fight that is happening now. And I think uh that is happening now. And I think uh that is happening now. And I think uh given sufficient amount of time, I think given sufficient amount of time, I think given sufficient amount of time, I think we'll win. we'll win. we'll win. >> Why do you think you'll win? Because I >> Why do you think you'll win? Because I >> Why do you think you'll win? Because I look at at the right and I see Tucker look at at the right and I see Tucker look at at the right and I see Tucker Carlson and his current guys, which is a Carlson and his current guys, which is a Carlson and his current guys, which is a much more conspiratorial guys than he's much more conspiratorial guys than he's much more conspiratorial guys than he's had before, uh has become more and more had before, uh has become more and more had before, uh has become more and more dominant figure. As you note, Candace dominant figure. As you note, Candace dominant figure. As you note, Candace Owen success has been startling. Owen success has been startling. Owen success has been startling. Uh I guess I'd ask this question in two Uh I guess I'd ask this question in two Uh I guess I'd ask this question in two two dimensions. What is the audience two dimensions. What is the audience two dimensions. What is the audience demand that they are meeting? Right? demand that they are meeting? Right? demand that they are meeting? Right? What what what is it that they are What what what is it that they are What what what is it that they are providing that people want? And then I providing that people want? And then I providing that people want? And then I guess the second question is why do you guess the second question is why do you guess the second question is why do you think you'll win? think you'll win? think you'll win? >> Yeah, great question. So, first of all, >> Yeah, great question. So, first of all, >> Yeah, great question. So, first of all, the audience for conspiracy theories is the audience for conspiracy theories is the audience for conspiracy theories is enormous. Um, before his kind of legal enormous. Um, before his kind of legal enormous. Um, before his kind of legal uh troubles, someone like Alex Jones was uh troubles, someone like Alex Jones was uh troubles, someone like Alex Jones was making apparently millions of dollars making apparently millions of dollars making apparently millions of dollars selling vitamins and survival supplies selling vitamins and survival supplies selling vitamins and survival supplies and and uh if you think about it, to and and uh if you think about it, to and and uh if you think about it, to generate that kind of revenue requires a generate that kind of revenue requires a generate that kind of revenue requires a massive, if kind of quiet, under the massive, if kind of quiet, under the massive, if kind of quiet, under the surface audience. And so I I I think surface audience. And so I I I think surface audience. And so I I I think they're really tapping into that side of they're really tapping into that side of they're really tapping into that side of the audience. It's right-wing, but not the audience. It's right-wing, but not the audience. It's right-wing, but not exclusively right-wing. And in fact, a exclusively right-wing. And in fact, a exclusively right-wing. And in fact, a lot of the people who have come over to lot of the people who have come over to lot of the people who have come over to these conspiracy theories are in that these conspiracy theories are in that these conspiracy theories are in that part of the horseshoe where their part of the horseshoe where their part of the horseshoe where their politics are, you know, um let's say sub

politics are, you know, um let's say sub politics are, you know, um let's say sub ideological. They're more of a a ideological. They're more of a a ideological. They're more of a a feeling, a perception, um a a set of feeling, a perception, um a a set of feeling, a perception, um a a set of resentments. Second, how do conspiracy resentments. Second, how do conspiracy resentments. Second, how do conspiracy theories work? Conspiracy theories work theories work? Conspiracy theories work theories work? Conspiracy theories work um for people who want to forfeit um for people who want to forfeit um for people who want to forfeit agency, for people who do not see the agency, for people who do not see the agency, for people who do not see the possibility of constructive action in possibility of constructive action in possibility of constructive action in their personal lives or in public life. their personal lives or in public life. their personal lives or in public life. And therefore, the conspiracy theory And therefore, the conspiracy theory And therefore, the conspiracy theory gives them the rationalization and gives them the rationalization and gives them the rationalization and justification for their nihilism. justification for their nihilism. justification for their nihilism. It's, you know, insert here, right? It's It's, you know, insert here, right? It's It's, you know, insert here, right? It's this group, it's that group, it's it's this group, it's that group, it's it's this group, it's that group, it's it's this other group that is that is this other group that is that is this other group that is that is controlling the world, making everything controlling the world, making everything controlling the world, making everything impossible, assassinating our our our impossible, assassinating our our our impossible, assassinating our our our heroes. And this gives them a heroes. And this gives them a heroes. And this gives them a psychological key, right? That is psychological key, right? That is psychological key, right? That is self-reinforcing because a conspiracy self-reinforcing because a conspiracy self-reinforcing because a conspiracy theory for conspiracy theorists can theory for conspiracy theorists can theory for conspiracy theorists can never be debunked, right? It's just one never be debunked, right? It's just one never be debunked, right? It's just one layer of the onion that gets peeled. And layer of the onion that gets peeled. And layer of the onion that gets peeled. And I'll tell you why I think we're going to I'll tell you why I think we're going to I'll tell you why I think we're going to win because I've noticed this um even win because I've noticed this um even win because I've noticed this um even for people, let's say, um in my kind of for people, let's say, um in my kind of for people, let's say, um in my kind of one degree of separation, conspiracy one degree of separation, conspiracy one degree of separation, conspiracy theories, and I think in particular theories, and I think in particular theories, and I think in particular anti-semitic conspiracy theories anti-semitic conspiracy theories anti-semitic conspiracy theories eventually fry your brain. And so I eventually fry your brain. And so I eventually fry your brain. And so I think that we'll see a lot of these think that we'll see a lot of these think that we'll see a lot of these personalities, a lot of these personalities, a lot of these personalities, a lot of these psychological tendencies kind of burn psychological tendencies kind of burn psychological tendencies kind of burn out on their own. Um, and on top of that out on their own. Um, and on top of that out on their own. Um, and on top of that as a kind of extra layer of as a kind of extra layer of as a kind of extra layer of >> an optimistic view on the history of >> an optimistic view on the history of >> an optimistic view on the history of anti-semitism right there.

anti-semitism right there. anti-semitism right there. >> Yeah. Well, okay, I'm saying in in the >> Yeah. Well, okay, I'm saying in in the >> Yeah. Well, okay, I'm saying in in the near term these things kind of wax and near term these things kind of wax and near term these things kind of wax and wayne, but I think what I've seen in the wayne, but I think what I've seen in the wayne, but I think what I've seen in the United States is a greater set of United States is a greater set of United States is a greater set of antibodies than you might find antibodies than you might find antibodies than you might find elsewhere. And then institutionally for elsewhere. And then institutionally for elsewhere. And then institutionally for our side on the right, um I I I think our side on the right, um I I I think our side on the right, um I I I think that look, the people who run that look, the people who run that look, the people who run institutions are aware of the problem. institutions are aware of the problem. institutions are aware of the problem. They're confronting the problem. We're They're confronting the problem. We're They're confronting the problem. We're dealing with it. And to me, this is dealing with it. And to me, this is dealing with it. And to me, this is inevitable. Political coalitions are inevitable. Political coalitions are inevitable. Political coalitions are going to have some kind of mixture of of going to have some kind of mixture of of going to have some kind of mixture of of the good and the bad. And the question the good and the bad. And the question the good and the bad. And the question is who's in a position of leadership? is who's in a position of leadership? is who's in a position of leadership? What kind of courage and integrity they What kind of courage and integrity they What kind of courage and integrity they have and can they succeed? And so I I I have and can they succeed? And so I I I have and can they succeed? And so I I I think that when I look at the field uh think that when I look at the field uh think that when I look at the field uh as it is, I think the I think this say as it is, I think the I think this say as it is, I think the I think this say faction is less powerful than it was 6 faction is less powerful than it was 6 faction is less powerful than it was 6 months ago, a year ago and I hope that months ago, a year ago and I hope that months ago, a year ago and I hope that trend continues. I think there's an trend continues. I think there's an trend continues. I think there's an interesting question on institutions in interesting question on institutions in interesting question on institutions in the right here. You I forget if it's a the right here. You I forget if it's a the right here. You I forget if it's a Chesterton quote or a CS Lewis quote, Chesterton quote or a CS Lewis quote, Chesterton quote or a CS Lewis quote, but he says one of them says that when but he says one of them says that when but he says one of them says that when men stop believing in God, they don't men stop believing in God, they don't men stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing. when men stop believe in nothing. when men stop believe in nothing. when men stop believing in God, they believe in believing in God, they believe in believing in God, they believe in everything. And I do think there's a everything. And I do think there's a everything. And I do think there's a dimension of that around institutions dimension of that around institutions dimension of that around institutions where the right has become much more where the right has become much more where the right has become much more anti-institutional. I think the view anti-institutional. I think the view anti-institutional. I think the view that institutions cannot be neutral and that institutions cannot be neutral and that institutions cannot be neutral and largely cannot even be impartial is much largely cannot even be impartial is much largely cannot even be impartial is much more widely held and there's been a sort more widely held and there's been a sort more widely held and there's been a sort of coordinated attack on many of the of coordinated attack on many of the of coordinated attack on many of the institutions in American life. But but institutions in American life. But but institutions in American life. But but sort of new ones haven't emerged, right?

sort of new ones haven't emerged, right? sort of new ones haven't emerged, right? You could imagine the right and the left You could imagine the right and the left You could imagine the right and the left having parallel institutions that have having parallel institutions that have having parallel institutions that have different core values because I do agree different core values because I do agree different core values because I do agree with you actually that institutions with you actually that institutions with you actually that institutions almost they do always have values at almost they do always have values at almost they do always have values at their heart and when you don't think their heart and when you don't think their heart and when you don't think they do it just means you don't know they do it just means you don't know they do it just means you don't know what they are what they are what they are >> correct >> correct >> correct >> um but I think a lot >> um but I think a lot >> um but I think a lot >> or they're being deliberately obscured >> or they're being deliberately obscured >> or they're being deliberately obscured right but I think sometimes about I right but I think sometimes about I right but I think sometimes about I think Tucker Carlson is an interesting think Tucker Carlson is an interesting think Tucker Carlson is an interesting figure here somebody who came up figure here somebody who came up figure here somebody who came up institutionally I think sometimes about institutionally I think sometimes about institutionally I think sometimes about this speech he gave at the 2009 this speech he gave at the 2009 this speech he gave at the 2009 conservative political action conference conservative political action conference conservative political action conference >> and I saw conservatives create many of >> and I saw conservatives create many of >> and I saw conservatives create many of their own media organizations and I saw their own media organizations and I saw their own media organizations and I saw many of those organizations prosper and many of those organizations prosper and many of those organizations prosper and I saw some of them fail and here's the I saw some of them fail and here's the I saw some of them fail and here's the difference. The ones that failed refused difference. The ones that failed refused difference. The ones that failed refused to put accuracy first. This is the hard to put accuracy first. This is the hard to put accuracy first. This is the hard truth and conservatives need to deal truth and conservatives need to deal truth and conservatives need to deal with this. I I believe this. I'm as with this. I I believe this. I'm as with this. I I believe this. I'm as conservative as any person in this room. conservative as any person in this room. conservative as any person in this room. I am literally in the process of I am literally in the process of I am literally in the process of stockpiling weapons and food and moving stockpiling weapons and food and moving stockpiling weapons and food and moving to Idaho. So I'm not in any way going to to Idaho. So I'm not in any way going to to Idaho. So I'm not in any way going to take a second seat to anybody in this take a second seat to anybody in this take a second seat to anybody in this room ideologically. But I will say room ideologically. But I will say room ideologically. But I will say honestly, if you create a news honestly, if you create a news honestly, if you create a news organization whose primary objective is organization whose primary objective is organization whose primary objective is not to deliver accurate news, you will not to deliver accurate news, you will not to deliver accurate news, you will fail. You will fail. The New York Times fail. You will fail. The New York Times fail. You will fail. The New York Times is a liberal paper, but it's also, and is a liberal paper, but it's also, and is a liberal paper, but it's also, and it is to its core a liberal paper. It's it is to its core a liberal paper. It's it is to its core a liberal paper. It's also a paper that cares about whether also a paper that cares about whether also a paper that cares about whether they spell people's names right. By and they spell people's names right. By and they spell people's names right. By and large, it's a paper that actually cares large, it's a paper that actually cares large, it's a paper that actually cares about accuracy. Conservatives need to about accuracy. Conservatives need to about accuracy. Conservatives need to build institutions that mirror those build institutions that mirror those build institutions that mirror those institutions that are that's the truth.

institutions that are that's the truth. institutions that are that's the truth. You don't believe me? You don't believe me? You don't believe me? So, put aside put put aside the the So, put aside put put aside the the So, put aside put put aside the the special pleading from the New York Times special pleading from the New York Times special pleading from the New York Times here. here. here. >> Carlson tried to build his own media >> Carlson tried to build his own media >> Carlson tried to build his own media institution, the Daily Caller. Sure. institution, the Daily Caller. Sure. institution, the Daily Caller. Sure. >> Um, I would say it did not, my >> Um, I would say it did not, my >> Um, I would say it did not, my impression of it is that it did not impression of it is that it did not impression of it is that it did not become a place to put accuracy first and become a place to put accuracy first and become a place to put accuracy first and became a kind of conservative New York became a kind of conservative New York became a kind of conservative New York Times. Times. Times. >> It did not become a conservative. >> It did not become a conservative. >> It did not become a conservative. >> It did not become a conservative New >> It did not become a conservative New >> It did not become a conservative New York Times. uh over time he went in I York Times. uh over time he went in I York Times. uh over time he went in I think darker and darker directions uh as think darker and darker directions uh as think darker and darker directions uh as he chased the audience and now he's he chased the audience and now he's he chased the audience and now he's fully without institution fully without institution fully without institution and has I think emerged I'll put it this and has I think emerged I'll put it this and has I think emerged I'll put it this way into a form I think when I listen to way into a form I think when I listen to way into a form I think when I listen to you you find more concerning and you you find more concerning and you you find more concerning and problematic. So what do you think went problematic. So what do you think went problematic. So what do you think went wrong there? wrong there? wrong there? >> Yeah. Well it look this is a a long-term >> Yeah. Well it look this is a a long-term >> Yeah. Well it look this is a a long-term trend. This didn't emerge in 2009 or or trend. This didn't emerge in 2009 or or trend. This didn't emerge in 2009 or or 2020. I think of it this way. Um, the 2020. I think of it this way. Um, the 2020. I think of it this way. Um, the left is over institutionalized and the left is over institutionalized and the left is over institutionalized and the right is under institutionalized. right is under institutionalized. right is under institutionalized. >> I say this all the time, man. Left is >> I say this all the time, man. Left is >> I say this all the time, man. Left is over formed by institutions. The right over formed by institutions. The right over formed by institutions. The right is underformed.

is underformed. is underformed. >> Correct. And so we have kind of opposite >> Correct. And so we have kind of opposite >> Correct. And so we have kind of opposite uh opposite problems. And I think of it uh opposite problems. And I think of it uh opposite problems. And I think of it also in in this way. I wrote a piece also in in this way. I wrote a piece also in in this way. I wrote a piece about this I don't know a long time ago about this I don't know a long time ago about this I don't know a long time ago and I think it really it really holds and I think it really it really holds and I think it really it really holds up. The left is organized as a capital P up. The left is organized as a capital P up. The left is organized as a capital P party and the right is organized under a party and the right is organized under a party and the right is organized under a capital P prince. So you have Donald capital P prince. So you have Donald capital P prince. So you have Donald Trump essentially sets the direction of Trump essentially sets the direction of Trump essentially sets the direction of the right for better for worse um the right for better for worse um the right for better for worse um through personal charismatic power and through personal charismatic power and through personal charismatic power and his relationship with the conservative his relationship with the conservative his relationship with the conservative base. There's really no mediating base. There's really no mediating base. There's really no mediating institutions uh in the kind of way that institutions uh in the kind of way that institutions uh in the kind of way that you would see elsewhere. That's where you would see elsewhere. That's where you would see elsewhere. That's where conservatives have figured out this conservatives have figured out this conservatives have figured out this formula for at least the time being to formula for at least the time being to formula for at least the time being to achieve political victory. It has achieve political victory. It has achieve political victory. It has benefits. It has it has problems. The benefits. It has it has problems. The benefits. It has it has problems. The left has the opposite problem. Um, the left has the opposite problem. Um, the left has the opposite problem. Um, the reason why I think you get like reason why I think you get like reason why I think you get like presidential candidates on the left that presidential candidates on the left that presidential candidates on the left that seem to be like devoid of traditional seem to be like devoid of traditional seem to be like devoid of traditional charisma is because it's organized uh as charisma is because it's organized uh as charisma is because it's organized uh as an institutional apparatus or a capital an institutional apparatus or a capital an institutional apparatus or a capital P party. And so conservatives have a P party. And so conservatives have a P party. And so conservatives have a problem with institutions. Conservatives problem with institutions. Conservatives problem with institutions. Conservatives have a problem building institutions.

have a problem building institutions. have a problem building institutions. And and this is the deepest irony, And and this is the deepest irony, And and this is the deepest irony, right? is that conservatives in a right? is that conservatives in a right? is that conservatives in a healthy republic would be the ones that healthy republic would be the ones that healthy republic would be the ones that are um preserving the institutions um are um preserving the institutions um are um preserving the institutions um restoring the institutions, maintaining restoring the institutions, maintaining restoring the institutions, maintaining the institutions. But conservatives have the institutions. But conservatives have the institutions. But conservatives have found themselves on the outside of found themselves on the outside of found themselves on the outside of institutions. And so when we're talking institutions. And so when we're talking institutions. And so when we're talking about this concept of counterrevolution, about this concept of counterrevolution, about this concept of counterrevolution, it's a paradox, right? Because a it's a paradox, right? Because a it's a paradox, right? Because a counterrevolution is not necessarily counterrevolution is not necessarily counterrevolution is not necessarily um a conservative impulse on the top. um a conservative impulse on the top. um a conservative impulse on the top. You can have a conservative mission or You can have a conservative mission or You can have a conservative mission or goal that drives it. That's why it's a goal that drives it. That's why it's a goal that drives it. That's why it's a counterrevolution rather than a counterrevolution rather than a counterrevolution rather than a revolution. Um, but conservatives are in revolution. Um, but conservatives are in revolution. Um, but conservatives are in this really interesting position where this really interesting position where this really interesting position where you have a lot of people on the you have a lot of people on the you have a lot of people on the intellectual right. They attend the intellectual right. They attend the intellectual right. They attend the black tai gallas. They attend the events black tai gallas. They attend the events black tai gallas. They attend the events at the country club. They eat the, you at the country club. They eat the, you at the country club. They eat the, you know, salmon dinner at the whatever know, salmon dinner at the whatever know, salmon dinner at the whatever Hilton, you know, ballroom. Hilton, you know, ballroom. Hilton, you know, ballroom. And I'm always looking around at these. And I'm always looking around at these. And I'm always looking around at these. I I you know don't like these events cuz I I you know don't like these events cuz I I you know don't like these events cuz I'm always looking around and saying you I'm always looking around and saying you I'm always looking around and saying you guys are out of your minds. You guys are guys are out of your minds. You guys are guys are out of your minds. You guys are operating as if um you know the Elks operating as if um you know the Elks operating as if um you know the Elks lodge was still the formative lodge was still the formative lodge was still the formative institution of the United States. You're institution of the United States. You're institution of the United States. You're living in a fantasy. You're living in a living in a fantasy. You're living in a living in a fantasy. You're living in a nostalgia that isn't actually grappling nostalgia that isn't actually grappling nostalgia that isn't actually grappling with the fundamental problems in the with the fundamental problems in the with the fundamental problems in the country and is totally out of step with country and is totally out of step with country and is totally out of step with the very voters that you claim to the very voters that you claim to the very voters that you claim to represent. And so look, this is a this represent. And so look, this is a this represent. And so look, this is a this is a problem. I I I don't I can't say is a problem. I I I don't I can't say is a problem. I I I don't I can't say that there's a snap your finger that there's a snap your finger that there's a snap your finger solution. Um and so you have to start solution. Um and so you have to start solution. Um and so you have to start where you start. You know, I work for an

where you start. You know, I work for an where you start. You know, I work for an institution that I think is, you know, institution that I think is, you know, institution that I think is, you know, the best in in in the business, the the best in in in the business, the the best in in in the business, the Manhattan Institute. I think we do good Manhattan Institute. I think we do good Manhattan Institute. I think we do good work that has a high degree of accuracy work that has a high degree of accuracy work that has a high degree of accuracy and rigor and intelligence. Uh and I and rigor and intelligence. Uh and I and rigor and intelligence. Uh and I think that we've put up uh practical think that we've put up uh practical think that we've put up uh practical political victories uh in a way that few political victories uh in a way that few political victories uh in a way that few others have. Another version of this is others have. Another version of this is others have. Another version of this is uh a line I like is that the personality uh a line I like is that the personality uh a line I like is that the personality type of the left is bureaucratic and the type of the left is bureaucratic and the type of the left is bureaucratic and the personality type of the right is personality type of the right is personality type of the right is autocratic. autocratic. autocratic. And I don't think that was always true. And I don't think that was always true. And I don't think that was always true. You let me give you a response. You let me give you a response. You let me give you a response. >> Well, I don't think so. >> Well, I don't think so. >> Well, I don't think so. >> I think in the Trump era it is. >> I think in the Trump era it is. >> I think in the Trump era it is. >> Okay. Well, it make the case. Make the >> Okay. Well, it make the case. Make the >> Okay. Well, it make the case. Make the case. case. case. >> There is a falling in line behind Donald >> There is a falling in line behind Donald >> There is a falling in line behind Donald Trump. So, here is my view of the two Trump. So, here is my view of the two Trump. So, here is my view of the two coalitions right now. The genius of coalitions right now. The genius of coalitions right now. The genius of Donald Trump in the 2024 election was he Donald Trump in the 2024 election was he Donald Trump in the 2024 election was he collapsed the multi-dimensional test of collapsed the multi-dimensional test of collapsed the multi-dimensional test of party loyalty that existed in the party loyalty that existed in the party loyalty that existed in the previous Republican party. Were you previous Republican party. Were you previous Republican party. Were you pro-life? Did you believe in low taxes? pro-life? Did you believe in low taxes? pro-life? Did you believe in low taxes? You know, what was your foreign policy? You know, what was your foreign policy? You know, what was your foreign policy? Etc. And certainly the multi-dimensional Etc. And certainly the multi-dimensional Etc. And certainly the multi-dimensional agenda test you see on the left down to agenda test you see on the left down to agenda test you see on the left down to a single point of loyalty. Did you a single point of loyalty. Did you a single point of loyalty. Did you support him personally?

support him personally? support him personally? If you did, there was actually room for If you did, there was actually room for If you did, there was actually room for a wide variety of other opinions. You a wide variety of other opinions. You a wide variety of other opinions. You could be a technofuturist. could be a technofuturist. could be a technofuturist. >> You could be a Christian traditionalist. >> You could be a Christian traditionalist. >> You could be a Christian traditionalist. You could be RFK Jr. who'd been running You could be RFK Jr. who'd been running You could be RFK Jr. who'd been running as a Democrat just a year or two before. as a Democrat just a year or two before. as a Democrat just a year or two before. Um, but also you could be Ted Cruz. And Um, but also you could be Ted Cruz. And Um, but also you could be Ted Cruz. And what held that together is that the line what held that together is that the line what held that together is that the line that you could not cross was Trump that you could not cross was Trump that you could not cross was Trump himself. But as long as you were useful himself. But as long as you were useful himself. But as long as you were useful to him, you could be on the team. Now to him, you could be on the team. Now to him, you could be on the team. Now that has obvious issues when you move that has obvious issues when you move that has obvious issues when you move into governance and I think some of them into governance and I think some of them into governance and I think some of them have have emerged but it gave him and have have emerged but it gave him and have have emerged but it gave him and them a freedom of movement across other them a freedom of movement across other them a freedom of movement across other issues where you know a comma Harris a issues where you know a comma Harris a issues where you know a comma Harris a Tim Walls uh Joe Biden were much more Tim Walls uh Joe Biden were much more Tim Walls uh Joe Biden were much more boxchecking right this sort of boxchecking right this sort of boxchecking right this sort of multi-dimensional loyalty test that the multi-dimensional loyalty test that the multi-dimensional loyalty test that the left uses and so on the left you end up left uses and so on the left you end up left uses and so on the left you end up with uh and I mean here the left not with uh and I mean here the left not with uh and I mean here the left not like the democratic social stuff but the like the democratic social stuff but the like the democratic social stuff but the left coalition in this country, the left coalition in this country, the left coalition in this country, the broad democratic party, broad democratic party, broad democratic party, >> you end up with people who have sort of >> you end up with people who have sort of >> you end up with people who have sort of all of the right views all of the right views all of the right views >> and have an institutional personality, >> and have an institutional personality, >> and have an institutional personality, right? Are somewhat riskaverse, are right? Are somewhat riskaverse, are right? Are somewhat riskaverse, are worried about getting in trouble at a worried about getting in trouble at a worried about getting in trouble at a meeting. And on the right, you have meeting. And on the right, you have meeting. And on the right, you have people who people who people who >> they'll go crazy in a meeting. You can >> they'll go crazy in a meeting. You can >> they'll go crazy in a meeting. You can be Bill Py, but as long as the boss be Bill Py, but as long as the boss be Bill Py, but as long as the boss likes you, you're safe. Okay. Yeah. I I likes you, you're safe. Okay. Yeah. I I likes you, you're safe. Okay. Yeah. I I think that there are elements of that think that there are elements of that think that there are elements of that that are true. prince versus party. It's

that are true. prince versus party. It's that are true. prince versus party. It's a method of political organization, a method of political organization, a method of political organization, psychological organization. Certainly, psychological organization. Certainly, psychological organization. Certainly, one of Trump's kind of the great litmus one of Trump's kind of the great litmus one of Trump's kind of the great litmus test for him is personal loyalty. Like test for him is personal loyalty. Like test for him is personal loyalty. Like we we've seen that you're with Trump, we we've seen that you're with Trump, we we've seen that you're with Trump, he's he's with you, you're you're you he's he's with you, you're you're you he's he's with you, you're you're you cross him um and he'll he'll he'll cross him um and he'll he'll he'll cross him um and he'll he'll he'll attack you. attack you. attack you. >> You could be Kim Jong-un and be >> You could be Kim Jong-un and be >> You could be Kim Jong-un and be >> buddy. It was like a nice buddy comedy. >> buddy. It was like a nice buddy comedy. >> buddy. It was like a nice buddy comedy. I feel like there'd be a buddy comedy. I feel like there'd be a buddy comedy. I feel like there'd be a buddy comedy. >> He likes Kim Jong-un more than he likes >> He likes Kim Jong-un more than he likes >> He likes Kim Jong-un more than he likes Mark Carney. Mark Carney. Mark Carney. >> Yeah. Well, you know, um, fair fair >> Yeah. Well, you know, um, fair fair >> Yeah. Well, you know, um, fair fair enough. And as personal chemistry goes, enough. And as personal chemistry goes, enough. And as personal chemistry goes, uh, but yeah, I think there's some truth uh, but yeah, I think there's some truth uh, but yeah, I think there's some truth to that, but I wouldn't therefore I to that, but I wouldn't therefore I to that, but I wouldn't therefore I think your conclusion is is overdrawn. I think your conclusion is is overdrawn. I think your conclusion is is overdrawn. I don't think you could say the right has don't think you could say the right has don't think you could say the right has autocratic personalities. I mean, I deal autocratic personalities. I mean, I deal autocratic personalities. I mean, I deal with conservatives all the time. I I with conservatives all the time. I I with conservatives all the time. I I don't see that as a psychological don't see that as a psychological don't see that as a psychological tendency, but the people I work with, tendency, but the people I work with, tendency, but the people I work with, the people I talk to, my friends and the people I talk to, my friends and the people I talk to, my friends and neighbors. Um, uh, but so yeah, I think neighbors. Um, uh, but so yeah, I think neighbors. Um, uh, but so yeah, I think it's over overdrawn. on I think this is it's over overdrawn. on I think this is it's over overdrawn. on I think this is just a question of political just a question of political just a question of political organization uh from the top and I don't organization uh from the top and I don't organization uh from the top and I don't think it's total just loyalty personal think it's total just loyalty personal think it's total just loyalty personal loyalty I mean Trump wants uh loyalty I mean Trump wants uh loyalty I mean Trump wants uh immigration restrictions strong national immigration restrictions strong national immigration restrictions strong national borders build a wall he wants uh kind of borders build a wall he wants uh kind of borders build a wall he wants uh kind of uh uh American national interestbased uh uh American national interestbased uh uh American national interestbased foreign policy although that is kind of foreign policy although that is kind of foreign policy although that is kind of uh a little bit on the outs and then he uh a little bit on the outs and then he uh a little bit on the outs and then he represents uh or at least championed a represents uh or at least championed a represents uh or at least championed a lot of the causes that that that that I lot of the causes that that that that I lot of the causes that that that that I cared about care about um you know on cared about care about um you know on cared about care about um you know on DEI I on higher education, on cultural DEI I on higher education, on cultural DEI I on higher education, on cultural institutions, institutions, institutions, um you know, and a and a whole host of um you know, and a and a whole host of um you know, and a and a whole host of other sub issues that he really grabbed

other sub issues that he really grabbed other sub issues that he really grabbed on to. And and look, this is good. You on to. And and look, this is good. You on to. And and look, this is good. You you you you kind of have to work with you you you kind of have to work with you you you kind of have to work with what what is there. You want to you what what is there. You want to you what what is there. You want to you always want to plan for the future, always want to plan for the future, always want to plan for the future, build for the future, but ultimately build for the future, but ultimately build for the future, but ultimately you're faced with decisions in the you're faced with decisions in the you're faced with decisions in the moment. And uh look on the whole I think moment. And uh look on the whole I think moment. And uh look on the whole I think in those areas uh where we have had more in those areas uh where we have had more in those areas uh where we have had more freedom of movement more ability to to freedom of movement more ability to to freedom of movement more ability to to execute policy I think things have been execute policy I think things have been execute policy I think things have been going quite well. going quite well. going quite well. >> I want to go back to Tucker. So uh I've >> I want to go back to Tucker. So uh I've >> I want to go back to Tucker. So uh I've seen you talk about your take on his seen you talk about your take on his seen you talk about your take on his evolution and something you said is that evolution and something you said is that evolution and something you said is that the Tucker Carlson of the Fox News era the Tucker Carlson of the Fox News era the Tucker Carlson of the Fox News era when he was given his 8mm monologues when he was given his 8mm monologues when he was given his 8mm monologues that in that era they were a unifying that in that era they were a unifying that in that era they were a unifying script for the right. that Fox News was script for the right. that Fox News was script for the right. that Fox News was this institutional structure around him this institutional structure around him this institutional structure around him that maybe contained him to a certain that maybe contained him to a certain that maybe contained him to a certain point and that created a point and that created a point and that created a unity a coherence unity a coherence unity a coherence that has now dissolved not just around that has now dissolved not just around that has now dissolved not just around him specifically but uh around the right him specifically but uh around the right him specifically but uh around the right more broadly. Now, the liberal take on more broadly. Now, the liberal take on more broadly. Now, the liberal take on Tucker uh in the Fox News era is that he Tucker uh in the Fox News era is that he Tucker uh in the Fox News era is that he was beginning to bring a white national was beginning to bring a white national was beginning to bring a white national strain into centrality in the Republican strain into centrality in the Republican strain into centrality in the Republican party that, you know, there were all party that, you know, there were all party that, you know, there were all these Daily Stormer articles about how these Daily Stormer articles about how these Daily Stormer articles about how much uh he was saying exactly what they much uh he was saying exactly what they much uh he was saying exactly what they thought. He was talking about great thought. He was talking about great thought. He was talking about great replacement theory. And you've got to replacement theory. And you've got to replacement theory. And you've got to ask yourself as you watch the historic ask yourself as you watch the historic ask yourself as you watch the historic tragedy that is Joe Biden's immigration tragedy that is Joe Biden's immigration tragedy that is Joe Biden's immigration policy. What's the point of this? They policy. What's the point of this? They policy. What's the point of this? They are flooding this country with are flooding this country with are flooding this country with immigrants in order to change the immigrants in order to change the immigrants in order to change the demography to maintain political power

demography to maintain political power demography to maintain political power for themselves to change the racial mix for themselves to change the racial mix for themselves to change the racial mix of the country. That's the reason to of the country. That's the reason to of the country. That's the reason to reduce the political power of people reduce the political power of people reduce the political power of people whose ancestors lived here and whose ancestors lived here and whose ancestors lived here and dramatically increase the proportion of dramatically increase the proportion of dramatically increase the proportion of Americans newly arrived from the third Americans newly arrived from the third Americans newly arrived from the third world. Now I know that the left and all world. Now I know that the left and all world. Now I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become the little gatekeepers on Twitter become the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term literally hysterical if you use the term literally hysterical if you use the term replacement, but they become hysterical replacement, but they become hysterical replacement, but they become hysterical because that's that's what's happening because that's that's what's happening because that's that's what's happening actually. Let's just say it. That's actually. Let's just say it. That's actually. Let's just say it. That's true. He had already in our view become true. He had already in our view become true. He had already in our view become quite conspiratorial and that what he is quite conspiratorial and that what he is quite conspiratorial and that what he is now and what he is then are a straight now and what he is then are a straight now and what he is then are a straight line from each other and that the the line from each other and that the the line from each other and that the the sort of passions he was unleashing. sort of passions he was unleashing. sort of passions he was unleashing. Right. Reason of course being a slave of Right. Reason of course being a slave of Right. Reason of course being a slave of such passions that it was always going such passions that it was always going such passions that it was always going to go in one direction and that to go in one direction and that to go in one direction and that celebrating what he was at that moment celebrating what he was at that moment celebrating what he was at that moment and then being confused by what he is at and then being confused by what he is at and then being confused by what he is at this moment is a kind of like a like a this moment is a kind of like a like a this moment is a kind of like a like a strange unwillingness to either grapple strange unwillingness to either grapple strange unwillingness to either grapple with one or the other. So, tell me how with one or the other. So, tell me how with one or the other. So, tell me how you see it. you see it. you see it. >> Yeah, I I don't I don't see it that way. >> Yeah, I I don't I don't see it that way. >> Yeah, I I don't I don't see it that way. I mean, when Tucker was on Fox at that I mean, when Tucker was on Fox at that I mean, when Tucker was on Fox at that 8:00 PM Eastern time, 5:00 PM uh Western 8:00 PM Eastern time, 5:00 PM uh Western 8:00 PM Eastern time, 5:00 PM uh Western time for me, um it really did feel like time for me, um it really did feel like time for me, um it really did feel like a shelling point for the right. It was a shelling point for the right. It was a shelling point for the right. It was like a quarterback um calling the plays like a quarterback um calling the plays like a quarterback um calling the plays every night at 8:00 in that first, you every night at 8:00 in that first, you every night at 8:00 in that first, you know, 5 to 10 minutes where Tucker kind know, 5 to 10 minutes where Tucker kind know, 5 to 10 minutes where Tucker kind of condensed the opinion, represented of condensed the opinion, represented of condensed the opinion, represented the opinion, reflected back the opinion, the opinion, reflected back the opinion, the opinion, reflected back the opinion, uh and then everyone had uh a central uh and then everyone had uh a central uh and then everyone had uh a central point, a central coherent point to to point, a central coherent point to to point, a central coherent point to to think about, to talk about, to to to think about, to talk about, to to to think about, to talk about, to to to mobilize on and it was very effective.

mobilize on and it was very effective. mobilize on and it was very effective. So even in my own experience when I So even in my own experience when I So even in my own experience when I first started reporting on critical race first started reporting on critical race first started reporting on critical race theory in the institutions theory in the institutions theory in the institutions went on Tucker gave a kind of opening went on Tucker gave a kind of opening went on Tucker gave a kind of opening monologue with Tucker President Trump monologue with Tucker President Trump monologue with Tucker President Trump was watching it got a call from the was watching it got a call from the was watching it got a call from the White House the next morning hey the White House the next morning hey the White House the next morning hey the president saw you on TV he wants to take president saw you on TV he wants to take president saw you on TV he wants to take action on critical race theory come to action on critical race theory come to action on critical race theory come to the White House let's get this thing the White House let's get this thing the White House let's get this thing done and so that mechanism that even in done and so that mechanism that even in done and so that mechanism that even in my personal experience the loop on that my personal experience the loop on that my personal experience the loop on that was like less than 12 hours was like less than 12 hours was like less than 12 hours >> very tight loop >> very tight loop >> very tight loop in the White House. in the White House. in the White House. >> And I think also what I've learned about >> And I think also what I've learned about >> And I think also what I've learned about Fox News is that uh Fox News uh has and Fox News is that uh Fox News uh has and Fox News is that uh Fox News uh has and this is to to to its great credit, Fox this is to to to its great credit, Fox this is to to to its great credit, Fox News has a kind of disciplinary News has a kind of disciplinary News has a kind of disciplinary function. And I think especially after function. And I think especially after function. And I think especially after 2020 has become even more cognizant of 2020 has become even more cognizant of 2020 has become even more cognizant of okay, message discipline is important. okay, message discipline is important. okay, message discipline is important. Uh moving the message forward is Uh moving the message forward is Uh moving the message forward is important. Here's the kind of guard important. Here's the kind of guard important. Here's the kind of guard rails for for the narrative. And this is rails for for the narrative. And this is rails for for the narrative. And this is a function of of institutions, a a function of of institutions, a a function of of institutions, a function of technology.

function of technology. function of technology. >> Yes. But what I'm talking about is what >> Yes. But what I'm talking about is what >> Yes. But what I'm talking about is what the narrative itself is. I agree with the narrative itself is. I agree with the narrative itself is. I agree with you that Tucker played this role when he you that Tucker played this role when he you that Tucker played this role when he was on Fox News. But the thing that many was on Fox News. But the thing that many was on Fox News. But the thing that many of us who I mean I knew Tucker before of us who I mean I knew Tucker before of us who I mean I knew Tucker before many of us who had watched him for a many of us who had watched him for a many of us who had watched him for a long time from uh good time libertarian, long time from uh good time libertarian, long time from uh good time libertarian, >> but what what spec you you I can't >> but what what spec you you I can't >> but what what spec you you I can't you're invoking like the daily it's like you're invoking like the daily it's like you're invoking like the daily it's like I don't know anything about the Daily I don't know anything about the Daily I don't know anything about the Daily Stormer beyond beyond. Stormer beyond beyond. Stormer beyond beyond. >> He talked a bunch about great >> He talked a bunch about great >> He talked a bunch about great replacement. I mean this has been exa replacement. I mean this has been exa replacement. I mean this has been exa hold on this has been exhaustingly hold on this has been exhaustingly hold on this has been exhaustingly documented. I mean there are biographies documented. I mean there are biographies documented. I mean there are biographies of the guy. The times did a bunch of of the guy. The times did a bunch of of the guy. The times did a bunch of work on this. The bringing in of a macro work on this. The bringing in of a macro work on this. The bringing in of a macro narrative that there was a function I narrative that there was a function I narrative that there was a function I would call it a cabal of elites would call it a cabal of elites would call it a cabal of elites importing brown voters to replace you. importing brown voters to replace you. importing brown voters to replace you. Um that you were being betrayed by Um that you were being betrayed by Um that you were being betrayed by elites representing foreign interests elites representing foreign interests elites representing foreign interests and foreign people to sort of alter the and foreign people to sort of alter the and foreign people to sort of alter the culture of this country to their culture of this country to their culture of this country to their benefit. benefit. benefit. was something he hammered all the time. was something he hammered all the time. was something he hammered all the time. >> Fox News is reporting tonight that the >> Fox News is reporting tonight that the >> Fox News is reporting tonight that the administration awarded a $172 million administration awarded a $172 million administration awarded a $172 million grant to a George Soros linked grant to a George Soros linked grant to a George Soros linked organization which exists to quote help organization which exists to quote help organization which exists to quote help young border crossers avoid deportation.

young border crossers avoid deportation. young border crossers avoid deportation. Now, why is some foreignb born Now, why is some foreignb born Now, why is some foreignb born billionaire allowed to change our billionaire allowed to change our billionaire allowed to change our country fundamentally? That's the big country fundamentally? That's the big country fundamentally? That's the big question, right? A relentless focus on question, right? A relentless focus on question, right? A relentless focus on crime from immigrants, a relentless crime from immigrants, a relentless crime from immigrants, a relentless focus on George Soros. And so to me, I focus on George Soros. And so to me, I focus on George Soros. And so to me, I see Tucker now and I see Tucker then. see Tucker now and I see Tucker then. see Tucker now and I see Tucker then. And I agree the shackles are off a And I agree the shackles are off a And I agree the shackles are off a little bit, but I see him calling the little bit, but I see him calling the little bit, but I see him calling the same play. He's just had to turn up the same play. He's just had to turn up the same play. He's just had to turn up the dial a little bit because he doesn't dial a little bit because he doesn't dial a little bit because he doesn't have Fox News. have Fox News. have Fox News. >> I don't I don't think that's right. And >> I don't I don't think that's right. And >> I don't I don't think that's right. And I think it Let's take the I think it Let's take the I think it Let's take the >> You're presenting it in a way that is >> You're presenting it in a way that is >> You're presenting it in a way that is very charged. Um I I don't think quite very charged. Um I I don't think quite very charged. Um I I don't think quite fair, but let's take the charge, but fair, but let's take the charge, but fair, but let's take the charge, but let's take the but but the narrative let's take the but but the narrative let's take the but but the narrative that you're that you're portraying. I I that you're that you're portraying. I I that you're that you're portraying. I I don't think that that's exactly uh you don't think that that's exactly uh you don't think that that's exactly uh you know, how I would put it. certainly, but know, how I would put it. certainly, but know, how I would put it. certainly, but the underlying facts are either true or the underlying facts are either true or the underlying facts are either true or not true. And in this case, um, not true. And in this case, um, not true. And in this case, um, demographic ch mass demographic change demographic ch mass demographic change demographic ch mass demographic change has been and is a reality in the United has been and is a reality in the United has been and is a reality in the United States. And I think it's fair to talk States. And I think it's fair to talk States. And I think it's fair to talk about that politically. We've been about that politically. We've been about that politically. We've been talking about it politically for for 10 talking about it politically for for 10 talking about it politically for for 10 years. And you could do it in a way that years. And you could do it in a way that years. And you could do it in a way that is exemplifies bigotry or is exemplifies bigotry or is exemplifies bigotry or discrimination, of course, but you can discrimination, of course, but you can discrimination, of course, but you can also do it in a way that isn't isn't an also do it in a way that isn't isn't an also do it in a way that isn't isn't an expression of bigotry or discrimination.

expression of bigotry or discrimination. expression of bigotry or discrimination. Um, but in fact is just a basic Um, but in fact is just a basic Um, but in fact is just a basic question. Um, a question that the that question. Um, a question that the that question. Um, a question that the that people in the United States have been people in the United States have been people in the United States have been asking since uh since the 1770s. Who are asking since uh since the 1770s. Who are asking since uh since the 1770s. Who are we? What is an American? Um, and if we we? What is an American? Um, and if we we? What is an American? Um, and if we are a sovereign nation, we have the not are a sovereign nation, we have the not are a sovereign nation, we have the not just the right, but really the just the right, but really the just the right, but really the obligation to determine these great obligation to determine these great obligation to determine these great questions of who comes in, who doesn't questions of who comes in, who doesn't questions of who comes in, who doesn't come in. And and so I I don't think that come in. And and so I I don't think that come in. And and so I I don't think that it is it is right to say that someone it is it is right to say that someone it is it is right to say that someone who is concerned about rapid and large who is concerned about rapid and large who is concerned about rapid and large scale demographic change is is is kind scale demographic change is is is kind scale demographic change is is is kind of a white nationalist. Um, that that of a white nationalist. Um, that that of a white nationalist. Um, that that seems like a kind of the kind of seems like a kind of the kind of seems like a kind of the kind of >> No, I'm saying that the reason I think >> No, I'm saying that the reason I think >> No, I'm saying that the reason I think Tucker is a white nationalist is due to Tucker is a white nationalist is due to Tucker is a white nationalist is due to all the white nationalism. Well, let me all the white nationalism. Well, let me all the white nationalism. Well, let me ask let me let me ask a question. Let me ask let me let me ask a question. Let me ask let me let me ask a question. Let me ask a question. No, no, because that ask a question. No, no, because that ask a question. No, no, because that that I mean that is a huge charge. Um, that I mean that is a huge charge. Um, that I mean that is a huge charge. Um, and and and I I just again like what is and and and I I just again like what is and and and I I just again like what is the evidence of that? You could be the evidence of that? You could be the evidence of that? You could be concerned can you be concerned about concerned can you be concerned about concerned can you be concerned about mass demographic change without being mass demographic change without being mass demographic change without being racist? I I think the answer is yes.

racist? I I think the answer is yes. racist? I I think the answer is yes. >> How do you define a white nationalist? >> How do you define a white nationalist? >> How do you define a white nationalist? >> Well, you you make the charge. you >> Well, you you make the charge. you >> Well, you you make the charge. you define it and and substantiate your your define it and and substantiate your your define it and and substantiate your your point. point. point. >> So I think that Tucker's view is that >> So I think that Tucker's view is that >> So I think that Tucker's view is that the the the >> take Tucker out of it just make an in >> take Tucker out of it just make an in >> take Tucker out of it just make an in general argument of what of what you can general argument of what of what you can general argument of what of what you can kind of layer in Tucker. kind of layer in Tucker. kind of layer in Tucker. >> So I think that there is a >> So I think that there is a >> So I think that there is a straightforward view in white straightforward view in white straightforward view in white nationalism that there is such a thing nationalism that there is such a thing nationalism that there is such a thing as a white race. That race is as a white race. That race is as a white race. That race is fundamentally European came here and fundamentally European came here and fundamentally European came here and founded this country. that race has founded this country. that race has founded this country. that race has depending on the variant of white depending on the variant of white depending on the variant of white nationalism we're talking about uh nationalism we're talking about uh nationalism we're talking about uh genetic advantages or cultural genetic advantages or cultural genetic advantages or cultural advantages and that that race deserves advantages and that that race deserves advantages and that that race deserves to have should have dominance to have should have dominance to have should have dominance particularly over this country there are particularly over this country there are particularly over this country there are harder and softer versions of this right harder and softer versions of this right harder and softer versions of this right in some versions Jews are included in in some versions Jews are included in in some versions Jews are included in that white race that white race that white race >> sure in some versions they're not >> sure in some versions they're not >> sure in some versions they're not included in that white race in some included in that white race in some included in that white race in some versions we are talking about something versions we are talking about something versions we are talking about something I would describe primarily as a kind of I would describe primarily as a kind of I would describe primarily as a kind of nationalism right the you know If you nationalism right the you know If you nationalism right the you know If you have too much of a country not sharing a have too much of a country not sharing a have too much of a country not sharing a common heritage, you lose solidarity. In common heritage, you lose solidarity. In common heritage, you lose solidarity. In some cases, we're talking about some cases, we're talking about some cases, we're talking about something much darker than that. Right.

something much darker than that. Right. something much darker than that. Right. There are people who just don't like the There are people who just don't like the There are people who just don't like the way their community is changing. And way their community is changing. And way their community is changing. And there's the KKK, right? Everything there's the KKK, right? Everything there's the KKK, right? Everything exists on a spectrum. But but would you exists on a spectrum. But but would you exists on a spectrum. But but would you say someone who is like, for example, say someone who is like, for example, say someone who is like, for example, hesitant about rapid largecale hesitant about rapid largecale hesitant about rapid largecale demographic change is just a kind of 1% demographic change is just a kind of 1% demographic change is just a kind of 1% white nationalist. Yeah. because that white nationalist. Yeah. because that white nationalist. Yeah. because that would be like the majority of the would be like the majority of the would be like the majority of the country. country. country. >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or >> Yes. I don't think it is a problem or unfair or even wrong to worry about unfair or even wrong to worry about unfair or even wrong to worry about large scale rapid demographic change. So large scale rapid demographic change. So large scale rapid demographic change. So to maybe to be more specific about to maybe to be more specific about to maybe to be more specific about Tucker, so you just had on um the Tucker, so you just had on um the Tucker, so you just had on um the right-wing writer Scott Greer. Um he's right-wing writer Scott Greer. Um he's right-wing writer Scott Greer. Um he's got a book coming out on the online got a book coming out on the online got a book coming out on the online right called White Pill. So Greer was a right called White Pill. So Greer was a right called White Pill. So Greer was a former deputy editor at the Daily former deputy editor at the Daily former deputy editor at the Daily Caller. He left in 2018 after past Caller. He left in 2018 after past Caller. He left in 2018 after past writings for white national site were writings for white national site were writings for white national site were dug up. And he once said of Tucker, so dug up. And he once said of Tucker, so dug up. And he once said of Tucker, so this is Greer speaking, Tucker is this is Greer speaking, Tucker is this is Greer speaking, Tucker is ultimately on our side. He can get ultimately on our side. He can get ultimately on our side. He can get millions and millions of boomers to nod millions and millions of boomers to nod millions and millions of boomers to nod along with talking points that would along with talking points that would along with talking points that would have only been seen on Vair or American have only been seen on Vair or American have only been seen on Vair or American Renaissance a few years ago. These are Renaissance a few years ago. These are Renaissance a few years ago. These are both white national sites. So I guess both white national sites. So I guess both white national sites. So I guess what do you make of that?

what do you make of that? what do you make of that? >> Yeah. So I'll tell you what I make of >> Yeah. So I'll tell you what I make of >> Yeah. So I'll tell you what I make of it. And here's what I think is really it. And here's what I think is really it. And here's what I think is really interesting about some of these figures interesting about some of these figures interesting about some of these figures who were on the once kind of fringe who were on the once kind of fringe who were on the once kind of fringe elements of the right who have in some elements of the right who have in some elements of the right who have in some ways seen the errors of that way of ways seen the errors of that way of ways seen the errors of that way of ideological thinking. And to me, you ideological thinking. And to me, you ideological thinking. And to me, you always want to leave people room to to always want to leave people room to to always want to leave people room to to grow up, room to leave bad ideas behind, grow up, room to leave bad ideas behind, grow up, room to leave bad ideas behind, room for um kind of critical room for um kind of critical room for um kind of critical self-reflection, and then to integrate self-reflection, and then to integrate self-reflection, and then to integrate back into the kind of mainstream back into the kind of mainstream back into the kind of mainstream thinking. And I think you know Scott thinking. And I think you know Scott thinking. And I think you know Scott Greer is interesting and one of the Greer is interesting and one of the Greer is interesting and one of the reasons why we interviewed him was to reasons why we interviewed him was to reasons why we interviewed him was to kind of chart out this trajectory which kind of chart out this trajectory which kind of chart out this trajectory which there's a lot of people that had more there's a lot of people that had more there's a lot of people that had more radical politics and then they moderate radical politics and then they moderate radical politics and then they moderate over time. And so I was very interested over time. And so I was very interested over time. And so I was very interested in understanding that process of kind of in understanding that process of kind of in understanding that process of kind of ideological development and growth and ideological development and growth and ideological development and growth and then and then really scrutinizing you then and then really scrutinizing you then and then really scrutinizing you want to actually try to figure out all want to actually try to figure out all want to actually try to figure out all right well what's the way out of that? right well what's the way out of that? right well what's the way out of that? What's the way to to demystify to defang What's the way to to demystify to defang What's the way to to demystify to defang to to kind of delegitimize to to kind of delegitimize to to kind of delegitimize that way of thinking? And I think it's that way of thinking? And I think it's that way of thinking? And I think it's interesting to talk to people who once interesting to talk to people who once interesting to talk to people who once had those ideas.

had those ideas. had those ideas. >> So, I'm not against you talking to him >> So, I'm not against you talking to him >> So, I'm not against you talking to him at all. Right. What I'm saying is not at all. Right. What I'm saying is not at all. Right. What I'm saying is not that you shouldn't interview Scott that you shouldn't interview Scott that you shouldn't interview Scott Greer. Greer. Greer. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> I think many people change their >> I think many people change their >> I think many people change their politics dramatically. And one of the politics dramatically. And one of the politics dramatically. And one of the big problems the left actually has is big problems the left actually has is big problems the left actually has is not giving people space to change. not giving people space to change. not giving people space to change. >> Sure. and putting people into a a box >> Sure. and putting people into a a box >> Sure. and putting people into a a box where they're held in who they were as where they're held in who they were as where they're held in who they were as opposed to who they may become. My opposed to who they may become. My opposed to who they may become. My problem is not with you. problem is not with you. problem is not with you. >> I'm saying that I looked at Tucker in >> I'm saying that I looked at Tucker in >> I'm saying that I looked at Tucker in that period and thought, "Huh, he's that period and thought, "Huh, he's that period and thought, "Huh, he's going in this direction that I going in this direction that I going in this direction that I understand this to be the argument of, understand this to be the argument of, understand this to be the argument of, you know, a vair of a" and they all you know, a vair of a" and they all you know, a vair of a" and they all celebrated him. But I guess the question celebrated him. But I guess the question celebrated him. But I guess the question is whether to to phrase a question is whether to to phrase a question is whether to to phrase a question precisely which maybe I haven't yet precisely which maybe I haven't yet precisely which maybe I haven't yet whether whether whether one of the lessons of where he has gone one of the lessons of where he has gone one of the lessons of where he has gone and where some of the right has gone is and where some of the right has gone is and where some of the right has gone is that people like you on the right were a that people like you on the right were a that people like you on the right were a little insensitive to when something little insensitive to when something little insensitive to when something wasn't just a breaking of a liberal wasn't just a breaking of a liberal wasn't just a breaking of a liberal taboo but was a movement towards a taboo but was a movement towards a taboo but was a movement towards a politics that was much more let's call politics that was much more let's call politics that was much more let's call it white identity focused.

it white identity focused. it white identity focused. Look, I Okay, hu huge point. I I would Look, I Okay, hu huge point. I I would Look, I Okay, hu huge point. I I would break it down in a couple ways. One, I I break it down in a couple ways. One, I I break it down in a couple ways. One, I I I don't think that's that's quite I don't think that's that's quite I don't think that's that's quite accurate. I actually think that the the accurate. I actually think that the the accurate. I actually think that the the the statement you're you're reading, and the statement you're you're reading, and the statement you're you're reading, and you could probably read it from a number you could probably read it from a number you could probably read it from a number of other people, right? If you remember of other people, right? If you remember of other people, right? If you remember in 2016, in 2016, in 2016, uh Richard Spencer famously held like uh Richard Spencer famously held like uh Richard Spencer famously held like some sort of uh conference or or or some sort of uh conference or or or some sort of uh conference or or or group and he said, "Oh, yes, Trump has group and he said, "Oh, yes, Trump has group and he said, "Oh, yes, Trump has um has adopted, you know, Trump is a um has adopted, you know, Trump is a um has adopted, you know, Trump is a creation of the alt-right. We willed creation of the alt-right. We willed creation of the alt-right. We willed Donald Trump into office. We made this Donald Trump into office. We made this Donald Trump into office. We made this dream our reality. And if we will it, it is no dream. A And if we will it, it is no dream. A quote I'm sure our friends at the quote I'm sure our friends at the quote I'm sure our friends at the Anti-Defamation League know very well. Anti-Defamation League know very well. Anti-Defamation League know very well. >> It was completely delusional. um totally >> It was completely delusional. um totally >> It was completely delusional. um totally self-s serving and and uh uh a product self-s serving and and uh uh a product self-s serving and and uh uh a product of narcissism that I wouldn't take uh at of narcissism that I wouldn't take uh at of narcissism that I wouldn't take uh at face value. And so I think a lot of the face value. And so I think a lot of the face value. And so I think a lot of the radical elements you're talking about radical elements you're talking about radical elements you're talking about overstate overstate overstate um uh overstate this relationship um uh overstate this relationship um uh overstate this relationship because they desperately want to believe because they desperately want to believe because they desperately want to believe it. And I think that um you know someone it. And I think that um you know someone it. And I think that um you know someone like Tucker I I I don't I don't think like Tucker I I I don't I don't think like Tucker I I I don't I don't think it's accurate to say that Tucker uh on it's accurate to say that Tucker uh on it's accurate to say that Tucker uh on Fox in in you know 2021 was laundering Fox in in you know 2021 was laundering Fox in in you know 2021 was laundering in you know talking points from you know in you know talking points from you know in you know talking points from you know American Renaissance. I just I I I don't American Renaissance. I just I I I don't American Renaissance. I just I I I don't think that's true. I think it's think that's true. I think it's think that's true. I think it's conflating a kind of maybe superficial

conflating a kind of maybe superficial conflating a kind of maybe superficial opposition to immigration. opposition to immigration. opposition to immigration. um and and the the conflation game is is um and and the the conflation game is is um and and the the conflation game is is is really really really I think is really really really I think is really really really I think dishonest and unfortunately for a lot of dishonest and unfortunately for a lot of dishonest and unfortunately for a lot of time it worked and so I think that in time it worked and so I think that in time it worked and so I think that in fact we're in a much better place than fact we're in a much better place than fact we're in a much better place than in the past and I remember some of these in the past and I remember some of these in the past and I remember some of these groups like ADL SPLC groups like ADL SPLC groups like ADL SPLC um media matters you know they came um media matters you know they came um media matters you know they came after me with many many smears trying to after me with many many smears trying to after me with many many smears trying to destroy my reputation trying to get me destroy my reputation trying to get me destroy my reputation trying to get me deplatformed from social media trying to deplatformed from social media trying to deplatformed from social media trying to to kind of eliminate me from the public to kind of eliminate me from the public to kind of eliminate me from the public sphere none of it worked Thankfully, the sphere none of it worked Thankfully, the sphere none of it worked Thankfully, the ACLU, I would also add, um, and in fact, ACLU, I would also add, um, and in fact, ACLU, I would also add, um, and in fact, as I look back, the arguments that they as I look back, the arguments that they as I look back, the arguments that they were making were were were preposterous, were making were were were preposterous, were making were were were preposterous, and they only succeeded because people and they only succeeded because people and they only succeeded because people felt fear. And so, I I'm glad that we felt fear. And so, I I'm glad that we felt fear. And so, I I'm glad that we don't live in that condition of fear don't live in that condition of fear don't live in that condition of fear anymore. And today, we can talk very anymore. And today, we can talk very anymore. And today, we can talk very reasonably across a table, which I think reasonably across a table, which I think reasonably across a table, which I think is good. Um, but I'm certainly not going is good. Um, but I'm certainly not going is good. Um, but I'm certainly not going to forget the emotional tone and the to forget the emotional tone and the to forget the emotional tone and the political um, uh, vulnerabilities of political um, uh, vulnerabilities of political um, uh, vulnerabilities of that era. And again, the SPLC that was that era. And again, the SPLC that was that era. And again, the SPLC that was coming after me because of God knows coming after me because of God knows coming after me because of God knows what what what was at the same time giving money to was at the same time giving money to was at the same time giving money to neo-Nazis and white nationalists to keep neo-Nazis and white nationalists to keep neo-Nazis and white nationalists to keep them afloat. And what that shows me is them afloat. And what that shows me is them afloat. And what that shows me is that the supply of racism in the United that the supply of racism in the United that the supply of racism in the United States uh and including racism on the States uh and including racism on the States uh and including racism on the right in the United States has dwindled right in the United States has dwindled right in the United States has dwindled to such a small degree in real life that to such a small degree in real life that to such a small degree in real life that it took the SPLC to actually inject cash

it took the SPLC to actually inject cash it took the SPLC to actually inject cash into that ecosystem merely to keep it into that ecosystem merely to keep it into that ecosystem merely to keep it alive. And so I I just I just I I just alive. And so I I just I just I I just alive. And so I I just I just I I just don't Yeah. don't Yeah. don't Yeah. >> persuasive one way of thinking about >> persuasive one way of thinking about >> persuasive one way of thinking about that period that I think is how I think that period that I think is how I think that period that I think is how I think about it is that two things were sort of about it is that two things were sort of about it is that two things were sort of true at the same time. true at the same time. true at the same time. So one, there was way too much speech So one, there was way too much speech So one, there was way too much speech policing. There was too much policing. There was too much policing. There was too much cancellation. There was too much that cancellation. There was too much that cancellation. There was too much that instead of being willing to have instead of being willing to have instead of being willing to have arguments, people just tried to make the arguments, people just tried to make the arguments, people just tried to make the arguments unhavable. That all happened, arguments unhavable. That all happened, arguments unhavable. That all happened, right? I don't deny any of it. right? I don't deny any of it. right? I don't deny any of it. And on the other hand, a lot of what And on the other hand, a lot of what And on the other hand, a lot of what people more on the left in that moment people more on the left in that moment people more on the left in that moment were afraid of or what they predicted were afraid of or what they predicted were afraid of or what they predicted also happened. The alt-right moved much also happened. The alt-right moved much also happened. The alt-right moved much more from the fringe to the center. I more from the fringe to the center. I more from the fringe to the center. I always think about um always think about um always think about um >> the alt-right was totally destroyed >> the alt-right was totally destroyed >> the alt-right was totally destroyed after Charlottesville. after Charlottesville. after Charlottesville. >> I I I >> I I I >> I I I >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I think maybe we have a different view >> I think maybe we have a different view >> I think maybe we have a different view of what the alt-right represented. of what the alt-right represented. of what the alt-right represented. >> Um which is fair enough, but I think a >> Um which is fair enough, but I think a >> Um which is fair enough, but I think a lot of ideas lot of ideas lot of ideas >> that were very very very far from the >> that were very very very far from the >> that were very very very far from the center. I think about Elon Musk and him center. I think about Elon Musk and him center. I think about Elon Musk and him writing and I mean later he had to like writing and I mean later he had to like writing and I mean later he had to like try to figure out how to apologize for try to figure out how to apologize for try to figure out how to apologize for this and but when somebody basically this and but when somebody basically this and but when somebody basically said like the Jews have been funding the said like the Jews have been funding the said like the Jews have been funding the grace replacement.

grace replacement. grace replacement. >> Did Elon say that? >> Did Elon say that? >> Did Elon say that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, Elon didn't say that. What he said >> No, Elon didn't say that. What he said >> No, Elon didn't say that. What he said was underneath that he said to whoever was underneath that he said to whoever was underneath that he said to whoever had tweeted that you have spoken the had tweeted that you have spoken the had tweeted that you have spoken the truth and then he had to go to Ashwitz truth and then he had to go to Ashwitz truth and then he had to go to Ashwitz and things like that. and things like that. and things like that. >> Okay. The Ashwitz. Yeah. >> Okay. The Ashwitz. Yeah. >> Okay. The Ashwitz. Yeah. >> The Ashwitz apology tour. So, >> The Ashwitz apology tour. So, >> The Ashwitz apology tour. So, >> but you know, even now Musk is very >> but you know, even now Musk is very >> but you know, even now Musk is very conspiratorial and where he is in 2026 conspiratorial and where he is in 2026 conspiratorial and where he is in 2026 now the world's first trillionaire now the world's first trillionaire now the world's first trillionaire owning, you know, what used to be owning, you know, what used to be owning, you know, what used to be Twitter. Twitter. Twitter. >> Um, and the things he like kind of pumps >> Um, and the things he like kind of pumps >> Um, and the things he like kind of pumps into the attentional stream would have into the attentional stream would have into the attentional stream would have been considered incredibly marginal even been considered incredibly marginal even been considered incredibly marginal even in Trump's first term. So, two things I in Trump's first term. So, two things I in Trump's first term. So, two things I think were true, right? I think there think were true, right? I think there think were true, right? I think there are many ways which the left went too are many ways which the left went too are many ways which the left went too far and the thing the forces the left far and the thing the forces the left far and the thing the forces the left were was worried were there are much were was worried were there are much were was worried were there are much closer to the center. Yes, there are closer to the center. Yes, there are closer to the center. Yes, there are parts of the alt-right that are not parts of the alt-right that are not parts of the alt-right that are not significant today. Richard Spencer is significant today. Richard Spencer is significant today. Richard Spencer is not a significant figure. Nick Fuentes not a significant figure. Nick Fuentes not a significant figure. Nick Fuentes has a bigger audience than Richard has a bigger audience than Richard has a bigger audience than Richard Spencer ever did. Spencer ever did. Spencer ever did. >> Sure. And there is I mean when I'm on X >> Sure. And there is I mean when I'm on X >> Sure. And there is I mean when I'm on X and other places, the amount of just and other places, the amount of just and other places, the amount of just constant anti-semitism and anti-Indian constant anti-semitism and anti-Indian constant anti-semitism and anti-Indian racism I see just happening in people's racism I see just happening in people's racism I see just happening in people's mentions is wild to me. And I mean I mentions is wild to me. And I mean I mentions is wild to me. And I mean I don't think he'll win, but you look at don't think he'll win, but you look at don't think he'll win, but you look at Fishbach who's running for governor in Fishbach who's running for governor in Fishbach who's running for governor in Florida, it's sort of almost Florida, it's sort of almost Florida, it's sort of almost unimaginable to think of somebody like unimaginable to think of somebody like unimaginable to think of somebody like him being a figure in Republican party him being a figure in Republican party him being a figure in Republican party politics who would be commanding the politics who would be commanding the politics who would be commanding the support of practically anybody. And I support of practically anybody. And I support of practically anybody. And I think the reason that people worry about think the reason that people worry about think the reason that people worry about him is they don't think he's going to

him is they don't think he's going to him is they don't think he's going to win, but he seems to be doing very well win, but he seems to be doing very well win, but he seems to be doing very well among the young right. among the young right. among the young right. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And so I think you can hold your view, >> And so I think you can hold your view, >> And so I think you can hold your view, which I at least partially share, that which I at least partially share, that which I at least partially share, that there are many ways in which the left there are many ways in which the left there are many ways in which the left and the speech policing and the um you and the speech policing and the um you and the speech policing and the um you know boundaries went too far. And also a know boundaries went too far. And also a know boundaries went too far. And also a lot of the people who were most hair on lot of the people who were most hair on lot of the people who were most hair on fire in that period had a point and some fire in that period had a point and some fire in that period had a point and some of their more kind of wild predictions. of their more kind of wild predictions. of their more kind of wild predictions. I was thinking about like if you had I was thinking about like if you had I was thinking about like if you had told me that Trump was going to make RFK told me that Trump was going to make RFK told me that Trump was going to make RFK Jr. HHS secretary and Tulsi Gabber DNI Jr. HHS secretary and Tulsi Gabber DNI Jr. HHS secretary and Tulsi Gabber DNI um and try um and try um and try >> the triumph of bipartisanship >> the triumph of bipartisanship >> the triumph of bipartisanship >> and try and try to make Matt Gates >> and try and try to make Matt Gates >> and try and try to make Matt Gates attorney general. I would have thought attorney general. I would have thought attorney general. I would have thought that was like an unhinged like that was like an unhinged like that was like an unhinged like resistance Substack take and then it all resistance Substack take and then it all resistance Substack take and then it all happened. So it's like the fact you can happened. So it's like the fact you can happened. So it's like the fact you can have these things be true at the same have these things be true at the same have these things be true at the same time. time. time. >> Yes. I I I think I think I think you're >> Yes. I I I think I think I think you're >> Yes. I I I think I think I think you're you're kind of understating uh uh kind you're kind of understating uh uh kind you're kind of understating uh uh kind of understating the dynamic on on one of understating the dynamic on on one of understating the dynamic on on one side. I mean, it wasn't just about side. I mean, it wasn't just about side. I mean, it wasn't just about speech policing. Um the after 2020, the speech policing. Um the after 2020, the speech policing. Um the after 2020, the left maintained uh kind of apparatus of left maintained uh kind of apparatus of left maintained uh kind of apparatus of social annihilation, and I went through social annihilation, and I went through social annihilation, and I went through it myself. I had the ACLU subpoena me it myself. I had the ACLU subpoena me it myself. I had the ACLU subpoena me and harass me with a lawfare campaign and harass me with a lawfare campaign and harass me with a lawfare campaign that cost me a lot of money. I had the that cost me a lot of money. I had the that cost me a lot of money. I had the SPLC and the ADL put me on some sort of SPLC and the ADL put me on some sort of SPLC and the ADL put me on some sort of hate list that was totally bogus trying hate list that was totally bogus trying hate list that was totally bogus trying to destroy my reputation. And so I had to destroy my reputation. And so I had to destroy my reputation. And so I had people, you know, uh uh you know, people, you know, uh uh you know, people, you know, uh uh you know, threats of violence against me that were threats of violence against me that were threats of violence against me that were very credible at the time. Uh and so, very credible at the time. Uh and so, very credible at the time. Uh and so, you know, people trying to get uh uh you

you know, people trying to get uh uh you you know, people trying to get uh uh you know, going after my family, my kids. I know, going after my family, my kids. I know, going after my family, my kids. I mean, we shouldn't forget just how awful mean, we shouldn't forget just how awful mean, we shouldn't forget just how awful that period was and how insane that that period was and how insane that that period was and how insane that period was. And unfortunately, while I period was. And unfortunately, while I period was. And unfortunately, while I think that many of the institutions on think that many of the institutions on think that many of the institutions on the left have learned after having the left have learned after having the left have learned after having suffered some consequences for enabling suffered some consequences for enabling suffered some consequences for enabling that, um, the movements that they have that, um, the movements that they have that, um, the movements that they have sparked, um, are in fact alive and well. sparked, um, are in fact alive and well. sparked, um, are in fact alive and well. And look, I I I think the difference And look, I I I think the difference And look, I I I think the difference that maybe you're not seeing is that the that maybe you're not seeing is that the that maybe you're not seeing is that the radical, nihilistic, and violent radical, nihilistic, and violent radical, nihilistic, and violent left-wing movements left-wing movements left-wing movements have the full support of the left's have the full support of the left's have the full support of the left's institutions. institutions. institutions. And what we're talking about is a And what we're talking about is a And what we're talking about is a radical, nihilistic movements on the radical, nihilistic movements on the radical, nihilistic movements on the right do not have any institutional right do not have any institutional right do not have any institutional support. and are bubble up in your support. and are bubble up in your support. and are bubble up in your Twitter comments which again don't agree Twitter comments which again don't agree Twitter comments which again don't agree um but is is different uh in kind not um but is is different uh in kind not um but is is different uh in kind not just in quantity and in the case of just in quantity and in the case of just in quantity and in the case of someone like James Fishbach I think it's someone like James Fishbach I think it's someone like James Fishbach I think it's a great test fishbach is very a great test fishbach is very a great test fishbach is very charismatic I think we would all agree charismatic I think we would all agree charismatic I think we would all agree on that I talked with your colleague on that I talked with your colleague on that I talked with your colleague Michelle Goldberg about this um but even Michelle Goldberg about this um but even Michelle Goldberg about this um but even with a kind of individual charisma if with a kind of individual charisma if with a kind of individual charisma if he's like the groper candidate for he's like the groper candidate for he's like the groper candidate for governor of Florida which is again like governor of Florida which is again like governor of Florida which is again like kind of a crazy thing that that is kind of a crazy thing that that is kind of a crazy thing that that is happening thing. I want to see the happening thing. I want to see the happening thing. I want to see the actual vote tally because that's going actual vote tally because that's going actual vote tally because that's going to show me where he is um where he to show me where he is um where he to show me where he is um where he stands with the actual conservative uh stands with the actual conservative uh stands with the actual conservative uh population, the conservative voter, the population, the conservative voter, the population, the conservative voter, the conservative movement as a whole. I

conservative movement as a whole. I conservative movement as a whole. I suspect that he's going to get suspect that he's going to get suspect that he's going to get absolutely trounced. It happened with absolutely trounced. It happened with absolutely trounced. It happened with Vivc running against a guy Casey Push uh Vivc running against a guy Casey Push uh Vivc running against a guy Casey Push uh in Ohio. He got blown out by I don't in Ohio. He got blown out by I don't in Ohio. He got blown out by I don't know 60 70 points. And so, um, by know 60 70 points. And so, um, by know 60 70 points. And so, um, by contrast, you look at something like the contrast, you look at something like the contrast, you look at something like the the the kind of trans ideological the the kind of trans ideological the the kind of trans ideological movement, um, that I think is both kind movement, um, that I think is both kind movement, um, that I think is both kind of a lie. It's it's grounded in in a of a lie. It's it's grounded in in a of a lie. It's it's grounded in in a series of falsehoods, maintained this, series of falsehoods, maintained this, series of falsehoods, maintained this, um, suppressive, threatening, sensorious um, suppressive, threatening, sensorious um, suppressive, threatening, sensorious power in the kind of prelon Twitter days power in the kind of prelon Twitter days power in the kind of prelon Twitter days and in the general kind of woke years. and in the general kind of woke years. and in the general kind of woke years. And then look another uncomfortable fact And then look another uncomfortable fact And then look another uncomfortable fact uh per capita has committed more mass uh per capita has committed more mass uh per capita has committed more mass violence than any other group. And so I violence than any other group. And so I violence than any other group. And so I I am willing to indulge in uh and and I am willing to indulge in uh and and I am willing to indulge in uh and and think it's important to to have a kind think it's important to to have a kind think it's important to to have a kind of criticism of let's say you know of criticism of let's say you know of criticism of let's say you know elements of my own side. But I also elements of my own side. But I also elements of my own side. But I also think that if we were to just measure it think that if we were to just measure it think that if we were to just measure it out to put it on a scale, you know, it out to put it on a scale, you know, it out to put it on a scale, you know, it it's it's looking a lot more like this it's it's looking a lot more like this it's it's looking a lot more like this assassination's attempt against assassination's attempt against assassination's attempt against President Trump, the assassination of President Trump, the assassination of President Trump, the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the kind of security Charlie Kirk, the kind of security Charlie Kirk, the kind of security posture that's required for posture that's required for posture that's required for conservatives just to go on a college conservatives just to go on a college conservatives just to go on a college campus. That's how I measure it. It's campus. That's how I measure it. It's campus. That's how I measure it. It's like I'm looking at it. I'm feeling it.

like I'm looking at it. I'm feeling it. like I'm looking at it. I'm feeling it. I'm seeing it with my colleagues. After I'm seeing it with my colleagues. After I'm seeing it with my colleagues. After Charlie Kirk was killed, I called all Charlie Kirk was killed, I called all Charlie Kirk was killed, I called all the people, friends and colleagues in the people, friends and colleagues in the people, friends and colleagues in the business. And I just like was the business. And I just like was the business. And I just like was completely distraught for for for weeks. completely distraught for for for weeks. completely distraught for for for weeks. And uh again, like while I don't support And uh again, like while I don't support And uh again, like while I don't support uh you know, James Fishbach for uh you know, James Fishbach for uh you know, James Fishbach for governor, again, I think that that's governor, again, I think that that's governor, again, I think that that's kind of an empty symbolism. Whereas on kind of an empty symbolism. Whereas on kind of an empty symbolism. Whereas on the other side, it feels like these the other side, it feels like these the other side, it feels like these ideologies have the support of the ideologies have the support of the ideologies have the support of the institutions. They wielded power institutions. They wielded power institutions. They wielded power irresponsibly in the past and still have irresponsibly in the past and still have irresponsibly in the past and still have the kind of ultimate political threat, the kind of ultimate political threat, the kind of ultimate political threat, the threat of violence that I know the threat of violence that I know the threat of violence that I know everybody in my world um um you know has everybody in my world um um you know has everybody in my world um um you know has seen, has experienced, has has feared. seen, has experienced, has has feared. seen, has experienced, has has feared. >> Um and so >> Um and so >> Um and so >> I mean that grounds me do you not see >> I mean that grounds me do you not see >> I mean that grounds me do you not see that? is that I don't have the same view that? is that I don't have the same view that? is that I don't have the same view of it but let me hold as saying that of it but let me hold as saying that of it but let me hold as saying that your experience of it I understand right your experience of it I understand right your experience of it I understand right >> and as somebody who also you know >> and as somebody who also you know >> and as somebody who also you know >> sometimes deals with threats of violence >> sometimes deals with threats of violence >> sometimes deals with threats of violence and other things of that nature and other things of that nature and other things of that nature >> I think the way this often looks to >> I think the way this often looks to >> I think the way this often looks to people on the left particularly looks people on the left particularly looks people on the left particularly looks right now right now right now >> is that >> is that >> is that when you say when you say when you say these nihilistic I think you call them these nihilistic I think you call them these nihilistic I think you call them ideals ideas are not held at high levels ideals ideas are not held at high levels ideals ideas are not held at high levels of the right they're only supported of the right they're only supported of the right they're only supported institution usually on the left. I see institution usually on the left. I see institution usually on the left. I see it the opposite way.

it the opposite way. it the opposite way. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Right. I see it the opposite way. And >> Right. I see it the opposite way. And >> Right. I see it the opposite way. And I'll I'll explain why. I'll I'll explain why. I'll I'll explain why. >> I don't see the SPLC, the Southern >> I don't see the SPLC, the Southern >> I don't see the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center, as like a powerful, Poverty Law Center, as like a powerful, Poverty Law Center, as like a powerful, potent left-wing actor. They're not potent left-wing actor. They're not potent left-wing actor. They're not >> really They could 10 years ago, they >> really They could 10 years ago, they >> really They could 10 years ago, they could nuke you like I'll go through I'll could nuke you like I'll go through I'll could nuke you like I'll go through I'll go through my thing. go through my thing. go through my thing. >> Um ADL I don't even see as on the left, >> Um ADL I don't even see as on the left, >> Um ADL I don't even see as on the left, which is a different question. I which is a different question. I which is a different question. I understand. But I see the Trump understand. But I see the Trump understand. But I see the Trump administration as powerfully and administration as powerfully and administration as powerfully and potently extreme and willing to use the potently extreme and willing to use the potently extreme and willing to use the power of the federal government from, power of the federal government from, power of the federal government from, you know, deploying ICE and CBP agents you know, deploying ICE and CBP agents you know, deploying ICE and CBP agents to different cities to directing the DOJ to different cities to directing the DOJ to different cities to directing the DOJ who to investigate and go after to after who to investigate and go after to after who to investigate and go after to after Charlie Kirk's murder trying to get Charlie Kirk's murder trying to get Charlie Kirk's murder trying to get people fired who are just sort of random people fired who are just sort of random people fired who are just sort of random people who had done shitty tweets. I do people who had done shitty tweets. I do people who had done shitty tweets. I do not see a world in which there is this not see a world in which there is this not see a world in which there is this huge separation between the extreme huge separation between the extreme huge separation between the extreme elements of the right and this elements of the right and this elements of the right and this administration. I keep hearing from administration. I keep hearing from administration. I keep hearing from people like you, right, who I think has people like you, right, who I think has people like you, right, who I think has talked about this, that there's a huge talked about this, that there's a huge talked about this, that there's a huge number of gripers working in uh House number of gripers working in uh House number of gripers working in uh House and Senate offices in Congress that, you and Senate offices in Congress that, you and Senate offices in Congress that, you know, Bronze Age pervert is one of the know, Bronze Age pervert is one of the know, Bronze Age pervert is one of the most uh popular people to read if you're most uh popular people to read if you're most uh popular people to read if you're a Trump staffer. And I see those things a Trump staffer. And I see those things a Trump staffer. And I see those things actually moving into things like actually moving into things like actually moving into things like national security strategies, you know, national security strategies, you know, national security strategies, you know, about the civilizational suicide of of about the civilizational suicide of of about the civilizational suicide of of Europe. Now, I recognize we're not going Europe. Now, I recognize we're not going Europe. Now, I recognize we're not going to agree on all this, right? This this to agree on all this, right? This this to agree on all this, right? This this part I'm not going to try to like bridge part I'm not going to try to like bridge part I'm not going to try to like bridge the gap. What I will say is that the the the gap. What I will say is that the the the gap. What I will say is that the the other thing I think people on the left

other thing I think people on the left other thing I think people on the left see has been a a sort of movement from, see has been a a sort of movement from, see has been a a sort of movement from, you know, 2016 to 2024 where it's almost you know, 2016 to 2024 where it's almost you know, 2016 to 2024 where it's almost unbelievable how far things have gone, unbelievable how far things have gone, unbelievable how far things have gone, right? Even Trump one to Trump 2 are right? Even Trump one to Trump 2 are right? Even Trump one to Trump 2 are very very different beasts. And so all very very different beasts. And so all very very different beasts. And so all of a sudden it doesn't look impossible of a sudden it doesn't look impossible of a sudden it doesn't look impossible to imagine that Fuentes St. Carlson and to imagine that Fuentes St. Carlson and to imagine that Fuentes St. Carlson and Fishbach Fishbach Fishbach are the future not the fringe. I think a are the future not the fringe. I think a are the future not the fringe. I think a lesson that has been burned into many of lesson that has been burned into many of lesson that has been burned into many of us is that it is dangerous to dismiss us is that it is dangerous to dismiss us is that it is dangerous to dismiss something that seems to have a lot of something that seems to have a lot of something that seems to have a lot of energy around it as a fringe because energy around it as a fringe because energy around it as a fringe because what is today's fringe is tomorrow's what is today's fringe is tomorrow's what is today's fringe is tomorrow's maybe not center but much more live and maybe not center but much more live and maybe not center but much more live and potent political force potent political force potent political force >> and would you say that you saw that that >> and would you say that you saw that that >> and would you say that you saw that that happen on the left between you know 2014 happen on the left between you know 2014 happen on the left between you know 2014 and and 2024 and and 2024 and and 2024 >> absolutely >> absolutely >> absolutely >> yeah in part I think you guys are about >> yeah in part I think you guys are about >> yeah in part I think you guys are about to learn some lessons we learned. to learn some lessons we learned. to learn some lessons we learned. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe so, but I >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe so, but I >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe so, but I would argue that actually the right has would argue that actually the right has would argue that actually the right has done a better job at managing it. And I done a better job at managing it. And I done a better job at managing it. And I think we'll see, and I I hope I'm right think we'll see, and I I hope I'm right think we'll see, and I I hope I'm right that with something like the fishback that with something like the fishback that with something like the fishback campaign, you know, I think of James campaign, you know, I think of James campaign, you know, I think of James Fishbach as a human meme, it's like Fishbach as a human meme, it's like Fishbach as a human meme, it's like amazing. He's like, if you take the amazing. He's like, if you take the amazing. He's like, if you take the mimemetic energy from that corner of the mimemetic energy from that corner of the mimemetic energy from that corner of the online discourse and turned it into a online discourse and turned it into a online discourse and turned it into a human being, it's like it would look and human being, it's like it would look and human being, it's like it would look and sound like James Fishbach. But the sound like James Fishbach. But the sound like James Fishbach. But the reality is that once those ideas gain reality is that once those ideas gain reality is that once those ideas gain contact with the the the people, the contact with the the the people, the contact with the the the people, the culture, the institutions on the right,

culture, the institutions on the right, culture, the institutions on the right, they're not going anywhere. they're not going anywhere. they're not going anywhere. >> Let me try to frame this more in terms >> Let me try to frame this more in terms >> Let me try to frame this more in terms of of of >> Let me try to frame this more in terms >> Let me try to frame this more in terms >> Let me try to frame this more in terms of arguments I've seen you making. of arguments I've seen you making. of arguments I've seen you making. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And tell me if I get a chain in this >> And tell me if I get a chain in this >> And tell me if I get a chain in this wrong, you tell me where I will. Right. wrong, you tell me where I will. Right. wrong, you tell me where I will. Right. >> I think you think you now have a problem >> I think you think you now have a problem >> I think you think you now have a problem with a racialist right. with a racialist right. with a racialist right. I think watching the takeover of I think watching the takeover of I think watching the takeover of conspiracies after Kirk's murder has conspiracies after Kirk's murder has conspiracies after Kirk's murder has been been been sobering or scary for a lot of people on sobering or scary for a lot of people on sobering or scary for a lot of people on the right. To watch people accusing the right. To watch people accusing the right. To watch people accusing Israel of it, to eventually see people Israel of it, to eventually see people Israel of it, to eventually see people accusing Turning Points USA of it or accusing Turning Points USA of it or accusing Turning Points USA of it or some kind of plot from the people around some kind of plot from the people around some kind of plot from the people around him, I think has been for major major him, I think has been for major major him, I think has been for major major figures on the right to be making those figures on the right to be making those figures on the right to be making those arguments has seemed to me to be a kind arguments has seemed to me to be a kind arguments has seemed to me to be a kind of shocking moment for a lot of you. of shocking moment for a lot of you. of shocking moment for a lot of you. And then I've watched you and others, And then I've watched you and others, And then I've watched you and others, you know, on X and elsewhere like look you know, on X and elsewhere like look you know, on X and elsewhere like look in your mentions and be like, "Oh [ __ ] in your mentions and be like, "Oh [ __ ] in your mentions and be like, "Oh [ __ ] there's a lot of racism here. there's a lot of racism here. there's a lot of racism here. Something's happening." So you tell me Something's happening." So you tell me Something's happening." So you tell me which part of this you don't agree with. which part of this you don't agree with. which part of this you don't agree with. >> Yeah. Well, I I mean, here's how I see >> Yeah. Well, I I mean, here's how I see >> Yeah. Well, I I mean, here's how I see it. And and your your general analysis it. And and your your general analysis it. And and your your general analysis is correct. So there is a racialist uh is correct. So there is a racialist uh is correct. So there is a racialist uh right, let's say. I've been writing right, let's say. I've been writing right, let's say. I've been writing about this for a number of years, but I about this for a number of years, but I about this for a number of years, but I think a lot of it is something of an think a lot of it is something of an think a lot of it is something of an optical illusion where um and you see optical illusion where um and you see optical illusion where um and you see this on the on on let's say on the left this on the on on let's say on the left this on the on on let's say on the left where a small group of people that is where a small group of people that is where a small group of people that is very loud online uh appears to represent very loud online uh appears to represent very loud online uh appears to represent a larger share of a political coalition a larger share of a political coalition a larger share of a political coalition or the general population uh than it or the general population uh than it or the general population uh than it really does. And so, look, I don't want

really does. And so, look, I don't want really does. And so, look, I don't want a racialist right. That is that is like a racialist right. That is that is like a racialist right. That is that is like a clear a clear position on my part. Um, a clear a clear position on my part. Um, a clear a clear position on my part. Um, and I think to the extent that we have and I think to the extent that we have and I think to the extent that we have like anti-semitic conspiracy theories uh like anti-semitic conspiracy theories uh like anti-semitic conspiracy theories uh bubbling up from the the digital sphere, bubbling up from the the digital sphere, bubbling up from the the digital sphere, it's a problem that we have to deal with it's a problem that we have to deal with it's a problem that we have to deal with that and of untruth or a falsehood that that and of untruth or a falsehood that that and of untruth or a falsehood that should be called out for what it is. And should be called out for what it is. And should be called out for what it is. And and what I think it is at at heart is and what I think it is at at heart is and what I think it is at at heart is that and I've talked to a lot of young that and I've talked to a lot of young that and I've talked to a lot of young right-wing guys. So I sometimes I'll right-wing guys. So I sometimes I'll right-wing guys. So I sometimes I'll I'll have lunch or dinner when I'm in DC I'll have lunch or dinner when I'm in DC I'll have lunch or dinner when I'm in DC or elsewhere with younger guys and just or elsewhere with younger guys and just or elsewhere with younger guys and just say, "Hey, you know, kind of walk me say, "Hey, you know, kind of walk me say, "Hey, you know, kind of walk me through like what's happening for people through like what's happening for people through like what's happening for people like we're older now. You and I you and like we're older now. You and I you and like we're older now. You and I you and I are are are are middle-aged now. So I are are are are middle-aged now. So I are are are are middle-aged now. So say, "Hey, walk me through this thinking say, "Hey, walk me through this thinking say, "Hey, walk me through this thinking and not kind of non-judgmental, just and not kind of non-judgmental, just and not kind of non-judgmental, just kind of help me understand what's kind of help me understand what's kind of help me understand what's happening with some of the more kind of happening with some of the more kind of happening with some of the more kind of radical or racialist uh young men." And radical or racialist uh young men." And radical or racialist uh young men." And this is the the description that they this is the the description that they this is the the description that they give. Um they say, you know, these are give. Um they say, you know, these are give. Um they say, you know, these are guys who hit high school during COVID. guys who hit high school during COVID. guys who hit high school during COVID. They they kind of transitioned into an They they kind of transitioned into an They they kind of transitioned into an almost a purely digital life with all of almost a purely digital life with all of almost a purely digital life with all of the various rabbit holes you could get the various rabbit holes you could get the various rabbit holes you could get into. They came of age as a as a into. They came of age as a as a into. They came of age as a as a function of your kind of entering function of your kind of entering function of your kind of entering adulthood during the kind of George adulthood during the kind of George adulthood during the kind of George Floyd hysteria where their teachers at Floyd hysteria where their teachers at Floyd hysteria where their teachers at school, their media uh you know school, their media uh you know school, their media uh you know institutions, the government, everyone institutions, the government, everyone institutions, the government, everyone was saying, you know, you're a young was saying, you know, you're a young was saying, you know, you're a young white man, you're the problem, you're white man, you're the problem, you're white man, you're the problem, you're the oppressor, you're evil, you should the oppressor, you're evil, you should the oppressor, you're evil, you should be denied opportunities because of your be denied opportunities because of your be denied opportunities because of your uh biology, because of your your your uh biology, because of your your your uh biology, because of your your your your ancestry.

your ancestry. your ancestry. and essentially that they were and essentially that they were and essentially that they were programmed by the kind of George Floyd programmed by the kind of George Floyd programmed by the kind of George Floyd hysteria into thinking racially and hysteria into thinking racially and hysteria into thinking racially and instead of what I think is the the instead of what I think is the the instead of what I think is the the proper and the correct response, which proper and the correct response, which proper and the correct response, which is to say, we've got to move beyond is to say, we've got to move beyond is to say, we've got to move beyond this, we're going to fight this this, we're going to fight this this, we're going to fight this racialist thinking on the left, on the racialist thinking on the left, on the racialist thinking on the left, on the right, wherever it comes from, they right, wherever it comes from, they right, wherever it comes from, they essentially psychologically submitted to essentially psychologically submitted to essentially psychologically submitted to it, but then reverse the polarity. Um, I it, but then reverse the polarity. Um, I it, but then reverse the polarity. Um, I don't think that's a good way to to don't think that's a good way to to don't think that's a good way to to pursue it. I don't think on the kind of pursue it. I don't think on the kind of pursue it. I don't think on the kind of philosophical question it's it's it's philosophical question it's it's it's philosophical question it's it's it's it's right. I don't think that from the it's right. I don't think that from the it's right. I don't think that from the practical political uh conception it's practical political uh conception it's practical political uh conception it's it's it's fruitful. Um but in a certain it's it's fruitful. Um but in a certain it's it's fruitful. Um but in a certain way it's like I get it. I understand it. way it's like I get it. I understand it. way it's like I get it. I understand it. Young people are um you know kind of in Young people are um you know kind of in Young people are um you know kind of in a in a position of growing up and and a in a position of growing up and and a in a position of growing up and and having a chip on your shoulder. I think having a chip on your shoulder. I think having a chip on your shoulder. I think it's extremely destructive. And what I it's extremely destructive. And what I it's extremely destructive. And what I see as um the the antidote to this, at see as um the the antidote to this, at see as um the the antidote to this, at least within my political coalition, is least within my political coalition, is least within my political coalition, is to be, you know, an older brother figure to be, you know, an older brother figure to be, you know, an older brother figure to say, "Hey, I could get why you think to say, "Hey, I could get why you think to say, "Hey, I could get why you think that." However, the actual path to that." However, the actual path to that." However, the actual path to success is this other way. So, I I I success is this other way. So, I I I success is this other way. So, I I I don't think that um I don't think that don't think that um I don't think that don't think that um I don't think that this is like predetermined. I actually this is like predetermined. I actually this is like predetermined. I actually think that young people have have, you think that young people have have, you think that young people have have, you know, their their brain isn't still know, their their brain isn't still know, their their brain isn't still their brain isn't locked in in its ways.

their brain isn't locked in in its ways. their brain isn't locked in in its ways. And so I think you you you want to bring And so I think you you you want to bring And so I think you you you want to bring people who are frustrated um towards a people who are frustrated um towards a people who are frustrated um towards a better path and and I think that someone better path and and I think that someone better path and and I think that someone like Candace Owens who's just like like Candace Owens who's just like like Candace Owens who's just like driving people into a ditch um you have driving people into a ditch um you have driving people into a ditch um you have to kind of guide them away from that. to kind of guide them away from that. to kind of guide them away from that. >> So I think first there's truth to that >> So I think first there's truth to that >> So I think first there's truth to that narrative. I do think that one of the narrative. I do think that one of the narrative. I do think that one of the things that happened over the past things that happened over the past things that happened over the past decade or so and this is you know decade or so and this is you know decade or so and this is you know something I talk about in my first book something I talk about in my first book something I talk about in my first book why we're polarized is there's a huge why we're polarized is there's a huge why we're polarized is there's a huge upsurge in upsurge in upsurge in telling people that the right way to telling people that the right way to telling people that the right way to understand life America is all through understand life America is all through understand life America is all through the lens of identity groups. And when the lens of identity groups. And when the lens of identity groups. And when you tell people to look at identity you tell people to look at identity you tell people to look at identity groups, they will form a more coherent groups, they will form a more coherent groups, they will form a more coherent sense of their own. And a line I have in sense of their own. And a line I have in sense of their own. And a line I have in that book is identity activates under that book is identity activates under that book is identity activates under threat. threat. threat. >> Sure. And so the more you tell people >> Sure. And so the more you tell people >> Sure. And so the more you tell people that their identity is the problem, the that their identity is the problem, the that their identity is the problem, the more they're going to begin to defend more they're going to begin to defend more they're going to begin to defend that identity and feel that identity and that identity and feel that identity and that identity and feel that identity and begin to self-define around that begin to self-define around that begin to self-define around that identity. So I think all of that identity. So I think all of that identity. So I think all of that happened the and I think that you would happened the and I think that you would happened the and I think that you would also you would also agree perhaps that also you would also agree perhaps that also you would also agree perhaps that you know the institutions the legal you know the institutions the legal you know the institutions the legal system the prevailing narrative at system the prevailing narrative at system the prevailing narrative at universities corporations etc was universities corporations etc was universities corporations etc was explicitly anti-white for a number of explicitly anti-white for a number of explicitly anti-white for a number of years that for these young people were years that for these young people were years that for these young people were formative formative formative >> I think it's sometimes moved into being >> I think it's sometimes moved into being >> I think it's sometimes moved into being anti-white I would not say it was all anti-white I would not say it was all anti-white I would not say it was all explicit hundreds of reports on this explicit hundreds of reports on this explicit hundreds of reports on this from institutions from banks

from institutions from banks from institutions from banks corporations corporations corporations white man bad. If you wanted to just put white man bad. If you wanted to just put white man bad. If you wanted to just put it into kindergarten language, white man it into kindergarten language, white man it into kindergarten language, white man bad. That was the dominant position bad. That was the dominant position bad. That was the dominant position initution. I remember telling people initution. I remember telling people initution. I remember telling people around me that this thing where people around me that this thing where people around me that this thing where people are putting out like papers on what are are putting out like papers on what are are putting out like papers on what are the the the negative traits of whiteness negative traits of whiteness negative traits of whiteness was a disaster. Right. So I don't was a disaster. Right. So I don't was a disaster. Right. So I don't necessarily disagree with that. I think necessarily disagree with that. I think necessarily disagree with that. I think there's truth to it. and and legally there's truth to it. and and legally there's truth to it. and and legally affirmative action DEI was institutional affirmative action DEI was institutional affirmative action DEI was institutional governmentbacked discrimination against governmentbacked discrimination against governmentbacked discrimination against one racial group. one racial group. one racial group. >> So the thing that I am interested in >> So the thing that I am interested in >> So the thing that I am interested in though here is that you're now in power though here is that you're now in power though here is that you're now in power and a lot and a lot and a lot >> personally I live on a farm in >> personally I live on a farm in >> personally I live on a farm in Washington state. I'm personally not in Washington state. I'm personally not in Washington state. I'm personally not in your executive orders get passed the your executive orders get passed the your executive orders get passed the whole thing whole thing whole thing >> and these things can all go in better or >> and these things can all go in better or >> and these things can all go in better or worse directions. These are all worse directions. These are all worse directions. These are all longstanding energies in American life. longstanding energies in American life. longstanding energies in American life. the the sort of argument I'm going to the the sort of argument I'm going to the the sort of argument I'm going to make to to be you know cards on the make to to be you know cards on the make to to be you know cards on the table about what I'm doing please table about what I'm doing please table about what I'm doing please >> is that I think >> is that I think >> is that I think the um empirical and epistemological the um empirical and epistemological the um empirical and epistemological structures on the right and the the structures on the right and the the structures on the right and the the habits they took on in order to win habits they took on in order to win habits they took on in order to win are playing with passions that are very are playing with passions that are very are playing with passions that are very dangerous like I'll give a good example dangerous like I'll give a good example dangerous like I'll give a good example of this of this of this >> sure >> sure >> sure >> you can believe what you want about >> you can believe what you want about >> you can believe what you want about whether or not the immigration of whether or not the immigration of whether or not the immigration of Haitians into Springfield, Ohio was good Haitians into Springfield, Ohio was good Haitians into Springfield, Ohio was good or bad. The people of that city had or bad. The people of that city had or bad. The people of that city had mixed views on it. I mean, the the mayor

mixed views on it. I mean, the the mayor mixed views on it. I mean, the the mayor and others were very pro and it had been and others were very pro and it had been and others were very pro and it had been good for the economy and Springfield had good for the economy and Springfield had good for the economy and Springfield had been in a period of decline and then you been in a period of decline and then you been in a period of decline and then you had a large Haitian influx. had a large Haitian influx. had a large Haitian influx. And then you get into this thing that And then you get into this thing that And then you get into this thing that happened in 2024 about Haitians eating happened in 2024 about Haitians eating happened in 2024 about Haitians eating cats and dogs where there's a Facebook cats and dogs where there's a Facebook cats and dogs where there's a Facebook post and post and post and the right all the way up to Donald Trump the right all the way up to Donald Trump the right all the way up to Donald Trump in one of the debates begins adopting in one of the debates begins adopting in one of the debates begins adopting it. You sort of go on a quest to try to it. You sort of go on a quest to try to it. You sort of go on a quest to try to figure out if it's true. And you know to figure out if it's true. And you know to figure out if it's true. And you know to shorthand a long story maybe in Dayton, shorthand a long story maybe in Dayton, shorthand a long story maybe in Dayton, Ohio there was somebody who wasn't Ohio there was somebody who wasn't Ohio there was somebody who wasn't Haitian. Haitian. Haitian. >> Correct. who maybe somebody thought but >> Correct. who maybe somebody thought but >> Correct. who maybe somebody thought but other people didn't think had eaten a other people didn't think had eaten a other people didn't think had eaten a cat that cat that cat that somebody and other people is is quite is somebody and other people is is quite is somebody and other people is is quite is is quite quite important. is quite quite important. is quite quite important. >> People can read your piece. They can >> People can read your piece. They can >> People can read your piece. They can read the drop site news article. I'm not read the drop site news article. I'm not read the drop site news article. I'm not going to convince you, going to convince you, going to convince you, >> but the drop site news article they went >> but the drop site news article they went >> but the drop site news article they went out to debunk my story and they ended up out to debunk my story and they ended up out to debunk my story and they ended up finding another independent finding another independent finding another independent corroborating witness. So, corroborating witness. So, corroborating witness. So, >> it's not how I read it, not how they >> it's not how I read it, not how they >> it's not how I read it, not how they read it, but I on some level am not even read it, but I on some level am not even read it, but I on some level am not even focused on that. focused on that. focused on that. What I'm saying is that when you get What I'm saying is that when you get What I'm saying is that when you get very into very into very into moves like we are going to accuse broad moves like we are going to accuse broad moves like we are going to accuse broad communities of eating cats and dogs, communities of eating cats and dogs, communities of eating cats and dogs, which I think we can all agree um which I think we can all agree um which I think we can all agree um Haitians are not in general eating cats Haitians are not in general eating cats Haitians are not in general eating cats and dogs, you are going to unleash forms and dogs, you are going to unleash forms and dogs, you are going to unleash forms of anger and hatred and fear that are of anger and hatred and fear that are of anger and hatred and fear that are not controllable. And I think one of the not controllable. And I think one of the not controllable. And I think one of the mistakes the right has made and frankly mistakes the right has made and frankly mistakes the right has made and frankly people like you have made is thinking people like you have made is thinking people like you have made is thinking these passions can then be coralled these passions can then be coralled these passions can then be coralled again this idea that you can find these

again this idea that you can find these again this idea that you can find these really um really um really um uh high passion like mimemetic uh high passion like mimemetic uh high passion like mimemetic containers that then you say well the containers that then you say well the containers that then you say well the real issue here is just we want to have real issue here is just we want to have real issue here is just we want to have a conversation about how much is the a conversation about how much is the a conversation about how much is the appropriate level of Haitian immigration appropriate level of Haitian immigration appropriate level of Haitian immigration into Springfield Ohio but that the way into Springfield Ohio but that the way into Springfield Ohio but that the way you get people to care about it JD Vance you get people to care about it JD Vance you get people to care about it JD Vance said this very explicitly is that well said this very explicitly is that well said this very explicitly is that well people really care about the the cats people really care about the the cats people really care about the the cats and dogs. The American media totally and dogs. The American media totally and dogs. The American media totally ignored this stuff until Donald Trump ignored this stuff until Donald Trump ignored this stuff until Donald Trump and I started talking about cat memes. and I started talking about cat memes. and I started talking about cat memes. If I have tome If I have tome If I have tome create stories so that the American create stories so that the American create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the media actually pays attention to the media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people then suffering of the American people then suffering of the American people then that's what I'm going to do Dana because that's what I'm going to do Dana because that's what I'm going to do Dana because you guys are completely letting Kla you guys are completely letting Kla you guys are completely letting Kla Harris coast. Um, which again I think my Harris coast. Um, which again I think my Harris coast. Um, which again I think my view is that there's never been any hard view is that there's never been any hard view is that there's never been any hard evidence of that happening in the evidence of that happening in the evidence of that happening in the Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio. Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio. Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio. Like nobody has substantiated that and Like nobody has substantiated that and Like nobody has substantiated that and nor have you. nor have you. nor have you. >> Correct. Yeah. I haven't made that. And >> Correct. Yeah. I haven't made that. And >> Correct. Yeah. I haven't made that. And in fact, I've said look, there's no in fact, I've said look, there's no in fact, I've said look, there's no evidence of this particular claim. We evidence of this particular claim. We evidence of this particular claim. We should be more careful.

should be more careful. should be more careful. >> And so there's been a a kind of >> And so there's been a a kind of >> And so there's been a a kind of consistent like consistent like consistent like >> the this idea that you could unleash >> the this idea that you could unleash >> the this idea that you could unleash like really I think quite terrible like really I think quite terrible like really I think quite terrible passions and then hold it to a level passions and then hold it to a level passions and then hold it to a level that that is controllable. And what that that is controllable. And what that that is controllable. And what you're seeing with Candace Owens, what you're seeing with Candace Owens, what you're seeing with Candace Owens, what you're seeing with the new Tucker you're seeing with the new Tucker you're seeing with the new Tucker Carlson or the old Tucker Carlson, Carlson or the old Tucker Carlson, Carlson or the old Tucker Carlson, however you want to call it, what you're however you want to call it, what you're however you want to call it, what you're seeing with Nick Fuentes and the rise of seeing with Nick Fuentes and the rise of seeing with Nick Fuentes and the rise of Nick Fuentes, who we've not really Nick Fuentes, who we've not really Nick Fuentes, who we've not really talked about, but I think is a a a talked about, but I think is a a a talked about, but I think is a a a necessary figure of thinking uh in the necessary figure of thinking uh in the necessary figure of thinking uh in the way we think about this, is that there way we think about this, is that there way we think about this, is that there wasn't a way to stop that move. like wasn't a way to stop that move. like wasn't a way to stop that move. like once people began to move in that once people began to move in that once people began to move in that direction and there weren't sort of direction and there weren't sort of direction and there weren't sort of institutions that were strong enough and institutions that were strong enough and institutions that were strong enough and respected enough to to stop it that the respected enough to to stop it that the respected enough to to stop it that the place it's going on the right when you place it's going on the right when you place it's going on the right when you talk about it becoming a third world to talk about it becoming a third world to talk about it becoming a third world to click farm is quite dangerous and quite click farm is quite dangerous and quite click farm is quite dangerous and quite grim and now I will let you say grim and now I will let you say grim and now I will let you say everything you think everything you think everything you think >> well oh man all right where do I start >> well oh man all right where do I start >> well oh man all right where do I start couple couple huge problems I gave you a couple couple huge problems I gave you a couple couple huge problems I gave you a lot a couple a couple huge problems I lot a couple a couple huge problems I lot a couple a couple huge problems I mean mean mean >> one is that you know and and I'm doing >> one is that you know and and I'm doing >> one is that you know and and I'm doing reporting in California right now that reporting in California right now that reporting in California right now that has uh that has stories that have a has uh that has stories that have a has uh that has stories that have a similar kind of let's say shock value.

similar kind of let's say shock value. similar kind of let's say shock value. For example, we did a story on um For example, we did a story on um For example, we did a story on um migrants from Mexico and Honduras who migrants from Mexico and Honduras who migrants from Mexico and Honduras who come to San Francisco and get free sex come to San Francisco and get free sex come to San Francisco and get free sex change surgeries from the California change surgeries from the California change surgeries from the California state uh medical system. This is a kind state uh medical system. This is a kind state uh medical system. This is a kind of explosive story that is true that of explosive story that is true that of explosive story that is true that represents I think a lot of these represents I think a lot of these represents I think a lot of these underlying questions about homelessness underlying questions about homelessness underlying questions about homelessness policy about immigration etc. policy about immigration etc. policy about immigration etc. Look, if it's true, it's fair game. And Look, if it's true, it's fair game. And Look, if it's true, it's fair game. And there's a way to handle these stories in there's a way to handle these stories in there's a way to handle these stories in a responsible way, that you ensure the a responsible way, that you ensure the a responsible way, that you ensure the facts, that you present it fairly, and facts, that you present it fairly, and facts, that you present it fairly, and that you uh use it as a method of that you uh use it as a method of that you uh use it as a method of changing public opinion. Like, that's changing public opinion. Like, that's changing public opinion. Like, that's how it's supposed to work. And and so I how it's supposed to work. And and so I how it's supposed to work. And and so I I I think that I I think that I I think that the idea that there are taboos uh uh the idea that there are taboos uh uh the idea that there are taboos uh uh that that cannot be crossed because they that that cannot be crossed because they that that cannot be crossed because they will unleash uh these these kind of will unleash uh these these kind of will unleash uh these these kind of unspecified or vague dangerous passions. unspecified or vague dangerous passions. unspecified or vague dangerous passions. I think it's pro is is a problem in in I think it's pro is is a problem in in I think it's pro is is a problem in in two regards. one is that two regards. one is that two regards. one is that if you're if you're going for truth if you're if you're going for truth if you're if you're going for truth seeeking, if you're going if you're seeeking, if you're going if you're seeeking, if you're going if you're playing a a kind of responsible playing a a kind of responsible playing a a kind of responsible rhetorical game, um no, I don't think rhetorical game, um no, I don't think rhetorical game, um no, I don't think that these questions are out of bounds that these questions are out of bounds that these questions are out of bounds at all. Um but second, the predictions at all. Um but second, the predictions at all. Um but second, the predictions have always been um you know that it's have always been um you know that it's have always been um you know that it's going to unleash some kind of horrible going to unleash some kind of horrible going to unleash some kind of horrible nivist violence sentiment, etc. And but nivist violence sentiment, etc. And but nivist violence sentiment, etc. And but the only example of of an the only example of of an the only example of of an ideologicaldriven assassination that ideologicaldriven assassination that ideologicaldriven assassination that we've talked about today is the we've talked about today is the we've talked about today is the assassination of Charlie Kirk. The this assassination of Charlie Kirk. The this assassination of Charlie Kirk. The this kind of prophecy of political violence

kind of prophecy of political violence kind of prophecy of political violence is is really comes uh from the is is really comes uh from the is is really comes uh from the institutional ideologies on the left, institutional ideologies on the left, institutional ideologies on the left, not the institutional ideologies on the not the institutional ideologies on the not the institutional ideologies on the right. Um and I think that I that that right. Um and I think that I that that right. Um and I think that I that that fact has been hammered home over and fact has been hammered home over and fact has been hammered home over and over and over these last few years. Um over and over these last few years. Um over and over these last few years. Um and and look like those of us on the and and look like those of us on the and and look like those of us on the right who who who are in this business. right who who who are in this business. right who who who are in this business. Um you know probably have to have like Um you know probably have to have like Um you know probably have to have like uh you know a little bit more firmness uh you know a little bit more firmness uh you know a little bit more firmness to say no the facts are not on this on to say no the facts are not on this on to say no the facts are not on this on your side in this argument. your side in this argument. your side in this argument. >> So let me be more specific about what >> So let me be more specific about what >> So let me be more specific about what I'm saying because I'm not making a I'm saying because I'm not making a I'm saying because I'm not making a vague prophecy of political violence. Um vague prophecy of political violence. Um vague prophecy of political violence. Um and I'm also not saying that there are and I'm also not saying that there are and I'm also not saying that there are these taboos you shouldn't touch. I these taboos you shouldn't touch. I these taboos you shouldn't touch. I think where I'm disagreeing is to say think where I'm disagreeing is to say think where I'm disagreeing is to say that there actually isn't truth seeeking that there actually isn't truth seeeking that there actually isn't truth seeeking here. There isn't enough truth in these here. There isn't enough truth in these here. There isn't enough truth in these arguments. There's too much of an arguments. There's too much of an arguments. There's too much of an attraction. attraction. attraction. >> Which arguments? >> Which arguments? >> Which arguments? >> So the and it I mean arguments like the >> So the and it I mean arguments like the >> So the and it I mean arguments like the Haitian cats and dogs. We'll talk we'll Haitian cats and dogs. We'll talk we'll Haitian cats and dogs. We'll talk we'll talk about others in a second. talk about others in a second. talk about others in a second. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> and that the thing I'm worried about has >> and that the thing I'm worried about has >> and that the thing I'm worried about has arrived, right? I'm not talking about an arrived, right? I'm not talking about an arrived, right? I'm not talking about an unspecified future in which I am unspecified future in which I am unspecified future in which I am concerned the right will increasingly be concerned the right will increasingly be concerned the right will increasingly be taken over by conspiratorial taken over by conspiratorial taken over by conspiratorial um racist misogynistic elements. I'm um racist misogynistic elements. I'm um racist misogynistic elements. I'm looking at a world where Nick Fuentes is looking at a world where Nick Fuentes is looking at a world where Nick Fuentes is a major figure on the American right.

a major figure on the American right. a major figure on the American right. >> Well, you guys are doing a great job at >> Well, you guys are doing a great job at >> Well, you guys are doing a great job at at at at raising his profile. at at at raising his profile. at at at raising his profile. >> Tucker Carlson is a guy who raised his >> Tucker Carlson is a guy who raised his >> Tucker Carlson is a guy who raised his profile, profile, profile, >> which I think was a mistake. I think it >> which I think was a mistake. I think it >> which I think was a mistake. I think it is legitimate to say Tucker is the is legitimate to say Tucker is the is legitimate to say Tucker is the biggest figure in right-wing media and biggest figure in right-wing media and biggest figure in right-wing media and he brought on Nick Fundes because and he brought on Nick Fundes because and he brought on Nick Fundes because and gave him such a gentle kind interview. gave him such a gentle kind interview. gave him such a gentle kind interview. And Tucker, here's one thing I don't And Tucker, here's one thing I don't And Tucker, here's one thing I don't underestimate with Tucker. He's [ __ ] underestimate with Tucker. He's [ __ ] underestimate with Tucker. He's [ __ ] good. He's a good interviewer. He is good. He's a good interviewer. He is good. He's a good interviewer. He is incredible talent as a media figure. If incredible talent as a media figure. If incredible talent as a media figure. If he wanted to cut that guy apart, he he wanted to cut that guy apart, he he wanted to cut that guy apart, he could have. As he did to Mike Huckabe could have. As he did to Mike Huckabe could have. As he did to Mike Huckabe when he wanted to do that or to Ted Cruz when he wanted to do that or to Ted Cruz when he wanted to do that or to Ted Cruz when he wanted to do that. Those who when he wanted to do that. Those who when he wanted to do that. Those who bless Israel will be blessed and those bless Israel will be blessed and those bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And who curse Israel will be cursed. And who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the from my perspective, I want to be on the from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things. blessing side of things. blessing side of things. >> Oh, the those who bless the government >> Oh, the those who bless the government >> Oh, the those who bless the government of Israel, of Israel, of Israel, >> those who bless Israel is what it says. >> those who bless Israel is what it says. >> those who bless Israel is what it says. Doesn't say the government of it says Doesn't say the government of it says Doesn't say the government of it says the nation of Israel. So that's in the the nation of Israel. So that's in the the nation of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. >> Where is that? >> Where is that? >> Where is that? >> I I can find it to you. I I don't have >> I I can find it to you. I I don't have >> I I can find it to you. I I don't have the the scripture off the tip of my You the the scripture off the tip of my You the the scripture off the tip of my You pull out the phone and use the pull out the phone and use the pull out the phone and use the >> It's in Genesis. But so you're quoting a >> It's in Genesis. But so you're quoting a >> It's in Genesis. But so you're quoting a a Bible phrase. You don't have context a Bible phrase. You don't have context a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it and you don't know where in the for it and you don't know where in the for it and you don't know where in the Bible it is, but that's like your Bible it is, but that's like your Bible it is, but that's like your theology. I'm confused.

theology. I'm confused. theology. I'm confused. >> And he didn't because I think Tucker >> And he didn't because I think Tucker >> And he didn't because I think Tucker understands quite well where the understands quite well where the understands quite well where the passions are and where the energy is. passions are and where the energy is. passions are and where the energy is. And I when I hear you sometimes I hear And I when I hear you sometimes I hear And I when I hear you sometimes I hear you being more concerned about this. you being more concerned about this. you being more concerned about this. You're a little chiller in in in this. You're a little chiller in in in this. You're a little chiller in in in this. And I recognize you're talking to, you And I recognize you're talking to, you And I recognize you're talking to, you know, in a New York Times podcast know, in a New York Times podcast know, in a New York Times podcast studio, but what I'm saying is I studio, but what I'm saying is I studio, but what I'm saying is I actually don't think the balance is actually don't think the balance is actually don't think the balance is right. That I think for some time people right. That I think for some time people right. That I think for some time people have been, you know, and Donald Trump have been, you know, and Donald Trump have been, you know, and Donald Trump himself is like the king of this. himself is like the king of this. himself is like the king of this. There's a view to, you know, it's the There's a view to, you know, it's the There's a view to, you know, it's the old take him seriously, not literally old take him seriously, not literally old take him seriously, not literally view that. Yeah. The thing that is being view that. Yeah. The thing that is being view that. Yeah. The thing that is being said maybe doesn't hold up. I'm hoping said maybe doesn't hold up. I'm hoping said maybe doesn't hold up. I'm hoping that you can give me a little bit more that you can give me a little bit more that you can give me a little bit more though because I'm I'm saying well what though because I'm I'm saying well what though because I'm I'm saying well what are you actually saying I'll give I'll are you actually saying I'll give I'll are you actually saying I'll give I'll give you a little bit give you a little bit give you a little bit >> was on a podcast I mean >> was on a podcast I mean >> was on a podcast I mean >> are you saying Nick Fuentes is not a big >> are you saying Nick Fuentes is not a big >> are you saying Nick Fuentes is not a big figure now and is not influential among figure now and is not influential among figure now and is not influential among young people on the right is that really young people on the right is that really young people on the right is that really would you really make that argument would you really make that argument would you really make that argument >> no I would make a slightly different >> no I would make a slightly different >> no I would make a slightly different argument I think that Nick Fuentes is argument I think that Nick Fuentes is argument I think that Nick Fuentes is not a fundamentally political figure not a fundamentally political figure not a fundamentally political figure he's a hyperreal figure of spectacle um he's a hyperreal figure of spectacle um he's a hyperreal figure of spectacle um that again is you can read my writing that again is you can read my writing that again is you can read my writing You can read my writings on on this on You can read my writings on on this on You can read my writings on on this on this exact question. I I think he's a I this exact question. I I think he's a I this exact question. I I think he's a I think he's a bad influence. What I've think he's a bad influence. What I've think he's a bad influence. What I've cautioned people on the right about that cautioned people on the right about that cautioned people on the right about that genre of personality is that when genre of personality is that when genre of personality is that when someone goes on a video and says, you someone goes on a video and says, you someone goes on a video and says, you know, I love Hitler. Obviously, we don't know, I love Hitler. Obviously, we don't know, I love Hitler. Obviously, we don't love Hitler. We're not neither of us are

love Hitler. We're not neither of us are love Hitler. We're not neither of us are are are are fans of Hitler, but you are are are fans of Hitler, but you are are are fans of Hitler, but you should resist the temptation to be uh should resist the temptation to be uh should resist the temptation to be uh scandalized and shocked and lose your scandalized and shocked and lose your scandalized and shocked and lose your capacity to reason and perceive it capacity to reason and perceive it capacity to reason and perceive it correctly because what this is, it is a correctly because what this is, it is a correctly because what this is, it is a hyperreal spectacle optimized for hyperreal spectacle optimized for hyperreal spectacle optimized for digital algorithms to harvest attention digital algorithms to harvest attention digital algorithms to harvest attention and to harvest clicks. It's not actually and to harvest clicks. It's not actually and to harvest clicks. It's not actually political in that sense. It's not political in that sense. It's not political in that sense. It's not optimized towards any political optimized towards any political optimized towards any political outcomes. I just reject this idea that, outcomes. I just reject this idea that, outcomes. I just reject this idea that, you know, some dumb kid that has uh, you you know, some dumb kid that has uh, you you know, some dumb kid that has uh, you know, hijacked the algorithm with um, know, hijacked the algorithm with um, know, hijacked the algorithm with um, like superficial ideological spectacle like superficial ideological spectacle like superficial ideological spectacle is somehow there therefore a symbolic of is somehow there therefore a symbolic of is somehow there therefore a symbolic of where people where the right is going as where people where the right is going as where people where the right is going as a whole. a whole. a whole. >> I think I think hyperreal is doing >> I think I think hyperreal is doing >> I think I think hyperreal is doing >> work in this argument that is not >> work in this argument that is not >> work in this argument that is not actually connected to what what actually connected to what what actually connected to what what hyperreal means. I can imagine somebody hyperreal means. I can imagine somebody hyperreal means. I can imagine somebody sitting in front of me, even sitting in sitting in front of me, even sitting in sitting in front of me, even sitting in front of me here in 2015 and us younger, front of me here in 2015 and us younger, front of me here in 2015 and us younger, handsomemer.

handsomemer. handsomemer. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. >> And you telling me this about Donald >> And you telling me this about Donald >> And you telling me this about Donald Trump. Trump. Trump. >> Tell me what Tell me what. >> Tell me what Tell me what. >> Tell me what Tell me what. >> That listen, you all are being easily >> That listen, you all are being easily >> That listen, you all are being easily provoked. You're looking at a hyperreal, provoked. You're looking at a hyperreal, provoked. You're looking at a hyperreal, algorithmically algorithmically algorithmically oriented, attentional spectacle and oriented, attentional spectacle and oriented, attentional spectacle and treating it like it's a serious treating it like it's a serious treating it like it's a serious political force. And then maybe if I had political force. And then maybe if I had political force. And then maybe if I had been wiser about what Donald Trump been wiser about what Donald Trump been wiser about what Donald Trump represented and the way in which the represented and the way in which the represented and the way in which the hyperreal and the real were going to hyperreal and the real were going to hyperreal and the real were going to converge in uh the life that we actually converge in uh the life that we actually converge in uh the life that we actually lead here, I would have said no. lead here, I would have said no. lead here, I would have said no. Attention is the fundamental currency of Attention is the fundamental currency of Attention is the fundamental currency of modern American politics. modern American politics. modern American politics. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Things that are we have actually fewer >> Things that are we have actually fewer >> Things that are we have actually fewer defenses against things that feel defenses against things that feel defenses against things that feel fundamentally ridiculous. Things that fundamentally ridiculous. Things that fundamentally ridiculous. Things that are this is an era of the trickster are this is an era of the trickster are this is an era of the trickster spirit, not the the the earnest uh spirit, not the the the earnest uh spirit, not the the the earnest uh energies. And many people like me, I energies. And many people like me, I energies. And many people like me, I mean, you may remember this Huffington mean, you may remember this Huffington mean, you may remember this Huffington Post initially would only cover Donald Post initially would only cover Donald Post initially would only cover Donald Trump's campaign in its celebrity and Trump's campaign in its celebrity and Trump's campaign in its celebrity and entertainment news section. entertainment news section. entertainment news section. >> Is that right? I don't remember that. >> Is that right? I don't remember that. >> Is that right? I don't remember that. >> A ridiculous hyperreal spectacle and to >> A ridiculous hyperreal spectacle and to >> A ridiculous hyperreal spectacle and to treat it as a serious thing would have treat it as a serious thing would have treat it as a serious thing would have been absurd. I think many of us were been absurd. I think many of us were been absurd. I think many of us were perfectly willing to say Nick Fuentes is perfectly willing to say Nick Fuentes is perfectly willing to say Nick Fuentes is a marginal uh absurdist figure. And then a marginal uh absurdist figure. And then a marginal uh absurdist figure. And then it became clear in the Tucker Carlson it became clear in the Tucker Carlson it became clear in the Tucker Carlson moment and given where Tucker has gone moment and given where Tucker has gone moment and given where Tucker has gone that there's like a conveyor belt of that there's like a conveyor belt of that there's like a conveyor belt of these ideas and they go from the fringe these ideas and they go from the fringe these ideas and they go from the fringe to the far right to the slightly less to the far right to the slightly less to the far right to the slightly less far right to Donald Trump. Okay. Well, far right to Donald Trump. Okay. Well, far right to Donald Trump. Okay. Well, here here's where I would here's where I here here's where I would here's where I here here's where I would here's where I would where I would where I would would where I would where I would would where I would where I would disagree. Um and you actually have a disagree. Um and you actually have a disagree. Um and you actually have a real world test, right? Um these kind of

real world test, right? Um these kind of real world test, right? Um these kind of ideological media figures are playing a ideological media figures are playing a ideological media figures are playing a very different game than Donald Trump very different game than Donald Trump very different game than Donald Trump was playing. And you know that because was playing. And you know that because was playing. And you know that because Donald Trump actually played the game. Donald Trump actually played the game. Donald Trump actually played the game. He announced for president and he He announced for president and he He announced for president and he against the odds against many of the against the odds against many of the against the odds against many of the institutions he won. And so you have to institutions he won. And so you have to institutions he won. And so you have to say yeah Trump also uses media but say yeah Trump also uses media but say yeah Trump also uses media but that's like you know that's a that's like you know that's a that's like you know that's a superficial comparison. You have to say superficial comparison. You have to say superficial comparison. You have to say what is the actual goal? And the goal what is the actual goal? And the goal what is the actual goal? And the goal for like the streamers um uh is not to for like the streamers um uh is not to for like the streamers um uh is not to pass legislation. It's not to win pass legislation. It's not to win pass legislation. It's not to win elections. uh it's not to cobble elections. uh it's not to cobble elections. uh it's not to cobble together a majority, but it's in fact uh together a majority, but it's in fact uh together a majority, but it's in fact uh to it's kind of a narcissistic endeavor to it's kind of a narcissistic endeavor to it's kind of a narcissistic endeavor to get personal attention. And so, but to get personal attention. And so, but to get personal attention. And so, but but that's the end point. There's no but that's the end point. There's no but that's the end point. There's no actual bridge that that can go over. And actual bridge that that can go over. And actual bridge that that can go over. And look, that's look, that's look, that's >> it minds. And can it change people's >> it minds. And can it change people's >> it minds. And can it change people's politics? It could change minds, but politics? It could change minds, but politics? It could change minds, but like, you know, not to the extent that like, you know, not to the extent that like, you know, not to the extent that you think because people look at it more you think because people look at it more you think because people look at it more as a form of uh entertainment, soap as a form of uh entertainment, soap as a form of uh entertainment, soap opera, um personality drama than an opera, um personality drama than an opera, um personality drama than an actual viable political move. And so, actual viable political move. And so, actual viable political move. And so, yeah, I I I think that you're kind of yeah, I I I think that you're kind of yeah, I I I think that you're kind of conflating the media spectacle with the conflating the media spectacle with the conflating the media spectacle with the the the fundamental political arena. And the the fundamental political arena. And the the fundamental political arena. And I think that boundary is not as I think that boundary is not as I think that boundary is not as permeable as you're suggesting. And in permeable as you're suggesting. And in permeable as you're suggesting. And in fact to make that boundary more explicit fact to make that boundary more explicit fact to make that boundary more explicit is better in my view for my own kind of is better in my view for my own kind of is better in my view for my own kind of political uh desire but also better for political uh desire but also better for political uh desire but also better for the country. And so when I see you know the country. And so when I see you know the country. And so when I see you know when I see the kind of online right and

when I see the kind of online right and when I see the kind of online right and the and the New York Times both doing the and the New York Times both doing the and the New York Times both doing like puff pieces on the latest kind of like puff pieces on the latest kind of like puff pieces on the latest kind of right-wing um figure, right? It was right-wing um figure, right? It was right-wing um figure, right? It was David Duke and then it was Richard David Duke and then it was Richard David Duke and then it was Richard Spencer and now it's Nick Fuentes. This Spencer and now it's Nick Fuentes. This Spencer and now it's Nick Fuentes. This is a stock character in American is a stock character in American is a stock character in American discourse and I just refuse to take the discourse and I just refuse to take the discourse and I just refuse to take the bait. bait. bait. >> I don't think David Duke is a marginal >> I don't think David Duke is a marginal >> I don't think David Duke is a marginal figure. I mean, I I I will say figure. I mean, I I I will say figure. I mean, I I I will say >> you don't think David Duke is a marginal >> you don't think David Duke is a marginal >> you don't think David Duke is a marginal figure. figure. figure. >> Here's what I mean. Um, I think John >> Here's what I mean. Um, I think John >> Here's what I mean. Um, I think John Gans, who's a a sort of he's a great Gans, who's a a sort of he's a great Gans, who's a a sort of he's a great Substack and is a a sort of interesting Substack and is a a sort of interesting Substack and is a a sort of interesting historybased theorist of American historybased theorist of American historybased theorist of American politics. He's got this book about the politics. He's got this book about the politics. He's got this book about the '9s um called uh When the Clock Broke, I '9s um called uh When the Clock Broke, I '9s um called uh When the Clock Broke, I believe. and I've had him on to talk believe. and I've had him on to talk believe. and I've had him on to talk about the book and the argument he would about the book and the argument he would about the book and the argument he would make about David Duke about a bunch of make about David Duke about a bunch of make about David Duke about a bunch of figures who arose in that period Patrick figures who arose in that period Patrick figures who arose in that period Patrick Buchanan um Sam Francis is that if you Buchanan um Sam Francis is that if you Buchanan um Sam Francis is that if you look at what they were figuring out look at what they were figuring out look at what they were figuring out about politics I mean David Duke by the about politics I mean David Duke by the about politics I mean David Duke by the way we should note ran for office he did way we should note ran for office he did way we should note ran for office he did not come that far from winning for not come that far from winning for not come that far from winning for Louisiana governor Louisiana governor Louisiana governor >> yeah in the 90s and >> yeah in the 90s and >> yeah in the 90s and >> you know there was a style of politics >> you know there was a style of politics >> you know there was a style of politics that they got kind of quite good at that they got kind of quite good at that they got kind of quite good at figuring out and Gans's view and I agree figuring out and Gans's view and I agree figuring out and Gans's view and I agree with his with his with his Is it much of what the populist right is Is it much of what the populist right is Is it much of what the populist right is today is built on that often quite today is built on that often quite today is built on that often quite explicitly with Samuel Francis and explicitly with Samuel Francis and explicitly with Samuel Francis and others? Okay, make your make your case.

others? Okay, make your make your case. others? Okay, make your make your case. >> Absolutely not. I mean, look, for for >> Absolutely not. I mean, look, for for >> Absolutely not. I mean, look, for for those of us who are look, I'm in the those of us who are look, I'm in the those of us who are look, I'm in the institutional right. I know the people, institutional right. I know the people, institutional right. I know the people, I know the personalities, I know the I know the personalities, I know the I know the personalities, I know the organizations, that figure organizations, that figure organizations, that figure um is is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants um is is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants um is is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants it. Nobody likes it. Nobody believes in it. Nobody likes it. Nobody believes in it. Nobody likes it. Nobody believes in it. And in fact, that figure, as we it. And in fact, that figure, as we it. And in fact, that figure, as we found out recently with the revelations found out recently with the revelations found out recently with the revelations about the Southern Poverty Law Center, about the Southern Poverty Law Center, about the Southern Poverty Law Center, um is not only a useful tool for um is not only a useful tool for um is not only a useful tool for institutions on the left, but in many institutions on the left, but in many institutions on the left, but in many cases was actually secretly funded by cases was actually secretly funded by cases was actually secretly funded by the kind of left-wing civil rights uh the kind of left-wing civil rights uh the kind of left-wing civil rights uh outfit, uh known as the SPLC, outfit, uh known as the SPLC, outfit, uh known as the SPLC, >> which we were talking about David Duke. >> which we were talking about David Duke. >> which we were talking about David Duke. >> Uh not not David Duke in particular. Who >> Uh not not David Duke in particular. Who >> Uh not not David Duke in particular. Who knows? Um but I'm saying that knows? Um but I'm saying that knows? Um but I'm saying that >> you're saying David Duke is maybe a >> you're saying David Duke is maybe a >> you're saying David Duke is maybe a left-wing plant. Yes, left-wing plant. Yes, left-wing plant. Yes, >> I think that's ridiculous. >> I think that's ridiculous. >> I think that's ridiculous. >> I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that >> I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that >> I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that in the sense of totally wholly created, in the sense of totally wholly created, in the sense of totally wholly created, but certainly used by, right? The whole but certainly used by, right? The whole but certainly used by, right? The whole idea was was this kind of uh smear idea was was this kind of uh smear idea was was this kind of uh smear effect where the media would go out and effect where the media would go out and effect where the media would go out and say this bad person, you know, supports say this bad person, you know, supports say this bad person, you know, supports your campaign and then you'd have to your campaign and then you'd have to your campaign and then you'd have to disavow and go through this whole this disavow and go through this whole this disavow and go through this whole this whole uh this whole kind of routine. But whole uh this whole kind of routine. But whole uh this whole kind of routine. But the point I'm kind of interested in here the point I'm kind of interested in here the point I'm kind of interested in here is I mean my view and I think this is a is I mean my view and I think this is a is I mean my view and I think this is a fairly wide held view is my worry is fairly wide held view is my worry is fairly wide held view is my worry is that the institutional right is getting that the institutional right is getting that the institutional right is getting steamrolled like steamrolled like steamrolled like >> boom. Yeah.

>> boom. Yeah. >> boom. Yeah. >> By well one to the in many cases in >> By well one to the in many cases in >> By well one to the in many cases in order to survive it is dramatically order to survive it is dramatically order to survive it is dramatically changing what it is like the Heritage changing what it is like the Heritage changing what it is like the Heritage Foundation. Foundation. Foundation. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um in other cases by Donald Trump Donald >> Um in other cases by Donald Trump Donald >> Um in other cases by Donald Trump Donald Trump was not the candidate of the Trump was not the candidate of the Trump was not the candidate of the institutional right. the institutional institutional right. the institutional institutional right. the institutional right had its way, Jeb Bush would have right had its way, Jeb Bush would have right had its way, Jeb Bush would have been the nominee. I mean, the idea that been the nominee. I mean, the idea that been the nominee. I mean, the idea that the institutional right has been racking the institutional right has been racking the institutional right has been racking up victory after victory is ridiculous. up victory after victory is ridiculous. up victory after victory is ridiculous. I mean, the Republicans all speaker I mean, the Republicans all speaker I mean, the Republicans all speaker after speaker after speaker till they after speaker after speaker till they after speaker after speaker till they got one who was more like properly got one who was more like properly got one who was more like properly compliant. compliant. compliant. >> Sure, >> Sure, >> Sure, >> the institutional right has not had a >> the institutional right has not had a >> the institutional right has not had a strong winning record. And again, part strong winning record. And again, part strong winning record. And again, part of my argument here is that I think this of my argument here is that I think this of my argument here is that I think this is because it it it keeps thinking it is because it it it keeps thinking it is because it it it keeps thinking it can maybe control these forces and it can maybe control these forces and it can maybe control these forces and it can't. You asked me earlier to to sort can't. You asked me earlier to to sort can't. You asked me earlier to to sort of be more specific on a story. So, I of be more specific on a story. So, I of be more specific on a story. So, I want to talk about a story you did in want to talk about a story you did in want to talk about a story you did in November. You wrote a piece with the November. You wrote a piece with the November. You wrote a piece with the title, The Largest Fund of Al-Shabaab is title, The Largest Fund of Al-Shabaab is title, The Largest Fund of Al-Shabaab is the Minnesota taxpayer. Tell me what the the Minnesota taxpayer. Tell me what the the Minnesota taxpayer. Tell me what the piece was about. piece was about. piece was about. >> Sure. So, uh, this was a a feature >> Sure. So, uh, this was a a feature >> Sure. So, uh, this was a a feature investigation that we did in, uh, investigation that we did in, uh, investigation that we did in, uh, Minnesota looking into organized Somali Minnesota looking into organized Somali Minnesota looking into organized Somali fraud. And so, we spent a number of fraud. And so, we spent a number of fraud. And so, we spent a number of month on a number of months on this month on a number of months on this month on a number of months on this piece. We went out to Minnesota. We piece. We went out to Minnesota. We piece. We went out to Minnesota. We reviewed court documents. since we reviewed court documents. since we reviewed court documents. since we interviewed law enforcement both uh uh interviewed law enforcement both uh uh interviewed law enforcement both uh uh uh you know on the record on background uh you know on the record on background uh you know on the record on background um and then our story and this had been um and then our story and this had been um and then our story and this had been kind of bubbling up in local press and kind of bubbling up in local press and kind of bubbling up in local press and bits and pieces was that in fact um bits and pieces was that in fact um bits and pieces was that in fact um Somali fraudsters were exploiting Somali fraudsters were exploiting Somali fraudsters were exploiting Minnesota and federal welfare programs, Minnesota and federal welfare programs, Minnesota and federal welfare programs, autism programs, daycare programs,

autism programs, daycare programs, autism programs, daycare programs, Medicaid programs and looting billions Medicaid programs and looting billions Medicaid programs and looting billions of dollars of dollars of dollars uh from American taxpayers. And this was uh from American taxpayers. And this was uh from American taxpayers. And this was the story that really blew open uh the the story that really blew open uh the the story that really blew open uh the Somali fraud story uh on the national Somali fraud story uh on the national Somali fraud story uh on the national stage. And then since then, as sometimes stage. And then since then, as sometimes stage. And then since then, as sometimes happens when you report on an explosive happens when you report on an explosive happens when you report on an explosive story, it kind of ricocheted into an story, it kind of ricocheted into an story, it kind of ricocheted into an entire movement really looking at uh entire movement really looking at uh entire movement really looking at uh large-scale fraud in American public large-scale fraud in American public large-scale fraud in American public institutions. institutions. institutions. >> So there's a couple pieces of this. So >> So there's a couple pieces of this. So >> So there's a couple pieces of this. So as you note the fraud had been you know as you note the fraud had been you know as you note the fraud had been you know reported elsewhere at the Star Tribune reported elsewhere at the Star Tribune reported elsewhere at the Star Tribune and it had been in national news. Yeah and it had been in national news. Yeah and it had been in national news. Yeah there bits and pieces. there bits and pieces. there bits and pieces. >> It there was prosecutions right which is >> It there was prosecutions right which is >> It there was prosecutions right which is where a lot of the information came from where a lot of the information came from where a lot of the information came from that began in in 2022 under the Biden that began in in 2022 under the Biden that began in in 2022 under the Biden administration. The big sort of move you administration. The big sort of move you administration. The big sort of move you made in this was to say this is made in this was to say this is made in this was to say this is financing foreign terrorism. What was financing foreign terrorism. What was financing foreign terrorism. What was what was that argument? what was that argument? what was that argument? >> Sure. I mean the argument is is is >> Sure. I mean the argument is is is >> Sure. I mean the argument is is is pretty simple and the mechanics of it pretty simple and the mechanics of it pretty simple and the mechanics of it are this. So we have billions of dollars are this. So we have billions of dollars are this. So we have billions of dollars being stolen by uh by Somali fraudsters being stolen by uh by Somali fraudsters being stolen by uh by Somali fraudsters in Minnesota. We then have um huge in Minnesota. We then have um huge in Minnesota. We then have um huge amounts of money being transported out amounts of money being transported out amounts of money being transported out of Minneapolis airport, Seattle airport of Minneapolis airport, Seattle airport of Minneapolis airport, Seattle airport uh in cash in actual physical currency uh in cash in actual physical currency uh in cash in actual physical currency in suitcases that goes to uh Moadishu in suitcases that goes to uh Moadishu in suitcases that goes to uh Moadishu and then when in Moadishu it is and then when in Moadishu it is and then when in Moadishu it is distributed through various parts of the distributed through various parts of the distributed through various parts of the country through what is called the Hala country through what is called the Hala country through what is called the Hala network. Hala Network is is the the the network. Hala Network is is the the the network. Hala Network is is the the the name for kind of informal cashbased name for kind of informal cashbased name for kind of informal cashbased clan-based financial institutions. They

clan-based financial institutions. They clan-based financial institutions. They don't have a strong formal banking don't have a strong formal banking don't have a strong formal banking system in Somalia. It's a it's a rough system in Somalia. It's a it's a rough system in Somalia. It's a it's a rough part of the world. And so they have part of the world. And so they have part of the world. And so they have these couriers that that that move money these couriers that that that move money these couriers that that that move money and cash and all kinds of think tanks, and cash and all kinds of think tanks, and cash and all kinds of think tanks, military uh US government, Department of military uh US government, Department of military uh US government, Department of Justice, Republicans and Democrats um Justice, Republicans and Democrats um Justice, Republicans and Democrats um have made uh uh have have essentially have made uh uh have have essentially have made uh uh have have essentially made the case that Elshaab is taking a made the case that Elshaab is taking a made the case that Elshaab is taking a cut of Hala financing. And so when we cut of Hala financing. And so when we cut of Hala financing. And so when we talked with federal law enforcement a talked with federal law enforcement a talked with federal law enforcement a agents and uh investigators who have agents and uh investigators who have agents and uh investigators who have been working on this case, they told us been working on this case, they told us been working on this case, they told us that the flow of funds was this from the that the flow of funds was this from the that the flow of funds was this from the taxpayer out of the airport and in taxpayer out of the airport and in taxpayer out of the airport and in suitcases to the uh hoala networks in suitcases to the uh hoala networks in suitcases to the uh hoala networks in Somalia and therefore uh uh to the Somalia and therefore uh uh to the Somalia and therefore uh uh to the al-Shabaab terror networks taking their al-Shabaab terror networks taking their al-Shabaab terror networks taking their their cut essentially like v we have their cut essentially like v we have their cut essentially like v we have visa that takes like 3% of your credit visa that takes like 3% of your credit visa that takes like 3% of your credit card transactions in in parts of card transactions in in parts of card transactions in in parts of Somalia. uh al-Shabaab takes a cut. Not Somalia. uh al-Shabaab takes a cut. Not Somalia. uh al-Shabaab takes a cut. Not exactly sure how much that is. And exactly sure how much that is. And exactly sure how much that is. And federal investigators say, "Hey, once it federal investigators say, "Hey, once it federal investigators say, "Hey, once it exits the country into the Hala system, exits the country into the Hala system, exits the country into the Hala system, you can't claw that money back. There you can't claw that money back. There you can't claw that money back. There are no there are no, you know, written are no there are no, you know, written are no there are no, you know, written receipts or banking transactions." Um, receipts or banking transactions." Um, receipts or banking transactions." Um, but the scale of that money that was but the scale of that money that was but the scale of that money that was that was remittances from fraud was so that was remittances from fraud was so that was remittances from fraud was so enormous that over time we're talking enormous that over time we're talking enormous that over time we're talking about huge sums of money.

about huge sums of money. about huge sums of money. >> So, I want to take a beat on whether or >> So, I want to take a beat on whether or >> So, I want to take a beat on whether or not this turned out to to be true. So not this turned out to to be true. So not this turned out to to be true. So the key named source in your story was a the key named source in your story was a the key named source in your story was a retired terrorism uh investigator named retired terrorism uh investigator named retired terrorism uh investigator named Glenn Karns. He later came out claimed Glenn Karns. He later came out claimed Glenn Karns. He later came out claimed that he was misqued. He said later the that he was misqued. He said later the that he was misqued. He said later the story was [ __ ] and that he did no on story was [ __ ] and that he did no on story was [ __ ] and that he did no on the ground investigating in Minnesota. the ground investigating in Minnesota. the ground investigating in Minnesota. The two top prosecutors of the fraud in The two top prosecutors of the fraud in The two top prosecutors of the fraud in Minnesota said the perpetrators are Minnesota said the perpetrators are Minnesota said the perpetrators are motivated by greed. There's no evidence motivated by greed. There's no evidence motivated by greed. There's no evidence of of terrorist financing. Do do you of of terrorist financing. Do do you of of terrorist financing. Do do you still stand by this? still stand by this? still stand by this? >> Of course I do. Yeah. And a couple >> Of course I do. Yeah. And a couple >> Of course I do. Yeah. And a couple things. So the Glenn Karns uh uh things. So the Glenn Karns uh uh things. So the Glenn Karns uh uh detective is very odd. We have him on detective is very odd. We have him on detective is very odd. We have him on the record. we have uh you know a the record. we have uh you know a the record. we have uh you know a transcript of his interview. I'm not transcript of his interview. I'm not transcript of his interview. I'm not sure what happened. My suspicion is that sure what happened. My suspicion is that sure what happened. My suspicion is that when this story blew up into a huge when this story blew up into a huge when this story blew up into a huge national story, he got spooked or or or national story, he got spooked or or or national story, he got spooked or or or scared or or or uh but you know the uh scared or or or uh but you know the uh scared or or or uh but you know the uh the paper in Minneapolis tried to go the paper in Minneapolis tried to go the paper in Minneapolis tried to go through our piece and and with a kind of through our piece and and with a kind of through our piece and and with a kind of criticism criticism criticism couldn't lay a glove on it. Didn't couldn't lay a glove on it. Didn't couldn't lay a glove on it. Didn't didn't debunk or even really contradict didn't debunk or even really contradict didn't debunk or even really contradict any of our points. Um you had you know any of our points. Um you had you know any of our points. Um you had you know one source who who knows don't know what one source who who knows don't know what one source who who knows don't know what don't know uh his personal don't know uh his personal don't know uh his personal circumstances. Um but you know circumstances. Um but you know circumstances. Um but you know >> he was the only named source.

>> he was the only named source. >> he was the only named source. >> He was I don't think he was the only >> He was I don't think he was the only >> He was I don't think he was the only named source in the piece. named source in the piece. named source in the piece. >> He was the only name source making this >> He was the only name source making this >> He was the only name source making this terrorism argument. terrorism argument. terrorism argument. >> Well incorrect. So so um we had multiple >> Well incorrect. So so um we had multiple >> Well incorrect. So so um we had multiple multiple highlevel multiple highlevel multiple highlevel um federal officials who confirmed to us um federal officials who confirmed to us um federal officials who confirmed to us the flow of funds. We substantiated it the flow of funds. We substantiated it the flow of funds. We substantiated it with contextual reporting from with contextual reporting from with contextual reporting from Foundation for Defense of Democracies, Foundation for Defense of Democracies, Foundation for Defense of Democracies, from the uh United States Military from the uh United States Military from the uh United States Military Academy, from the Department of Justice. Academy, from the Department of Justice. Academy, from the Department of Justice. We were saying simply, logically, if we We were saying simply, logically, if we We were saying simply, logically, if we know from a variety of sources that that know from a variety of sources that that know from a variety of sources that that al-Shabaab is skimming off the Hala al-Shabaab is skimming off the Hala al-Shabaab is skimming off the Hala network and we know from a variety of network and we know from a variety of network and we know from a variety of sources that money is moving through sources that money is moving through sources that money is moving through that network from fraud committed in the that network from fraud committed in the that network from fraud committed in the United States, it's a logical syllogism, United States, it's a logical syllogism, United States, it's a logical syllogism, right? A BC. And so, um, we know that right? A BC. And so, um, we know that right? A BC. And so, um, we know that this to be true. And I think that idea this to be true. And I think that idea this to be true. And I think that idea that because they weren't motivated by that because they weren't motivated by that because they weren't motivated by terrorism um is not something we alleged terrorism um is not something we alleged terrorism um is not something we alleged uh and is essentially irrelevant. The uh and is essentially irrelevant. The uh and is essentially irrelevant. The the facts as they played out um were the facts as they played out um were the facts as they played out um were that the al-Shabaab terror network that the al-Shabaab terror network that the al-Shabaab terror network benefits from fraud in the United States benefits from fraud in the United States benefits from fraud in the United States that has passed through their financial that has passed through their financial that has passed through their financial system. Your piece is actually quite system. Your piece is actually quite system. Your piece is actually quite careful, right? I've read the piece.

careful, right? I've read the piece. careful, right? I've read the piece. I've read it carefully. And you're I've read it carefully. And you're I've read it carefully. And you're right. You don't allege that the point right. You don't allege that the point right. You don't allege that the point of this is to fund terrorists. Then when of this is to fund terrorists. Then when of this is to fund terrorists. Then when you sort of promote the piece, your you sort of promote the piece, your you sort of promote the piece, your tweet is, "Somalies are stealing tweet is, "Somalies are stealing tweet is, "Somalies are stealing billions of dollars from American billions of dollars from American billions of dollars from American taxpayers and sending cash to terrorists taxpayers and sending cash to terrorists taxpayers and sending cash to terrorists back home. It's time for at real Donald back home. It's time for at real Donald back home. It's time for at real Donald Trump to revoke temper protected status Trump to revoke temper protected status Trump to revoke temper protected status for all Somali nationals in the United for all Somali nationals in the United for all Somali nationals in the United States. It's time for them to go home." States. It's time for them to go home." States. It's time for them to go home." And I have I think two or three issues And I have I think two or three issues And I have I think two or three issues here. here. here. >> Two or three. All right, let's go >> Two or three. All right, let's go >> Two or three. All right, let's go through them one by one. through them one by one. through them one by one. >> Yeah, we'll do them. We'll do them. I'll >> Yeah, we'll do them. We'll do them. I'll >> Yeah, we'll do them. We'll do them. I'll I'll give them to you all. Uh you have a I'll give them to you all. Uh you have a I'll give them to you all. Uh you have a limited number of people, right? limited number of people, right? limited number of people, right? committing crimes. They're being committing crimes. They're being committing crimes. They're being prosecuted, right? The prosecutions prosecuted, right? The prosecutions prosecuted, right? The prosecutions begin under Biden. This was not like a begin under Biden. This was not like a begin under Biden. This was not like a swept under the rug correct thing. You swept under the rug correct thing. You swept under the rug correct thing. You guys did not come up with this. You guys did not come up with this. You guys did not come up with this. You didn't find it yourself. And didn't find it yourself. And didn't find it yourself. And they are they were stealing a lot of they are they were stealing a lot of they are they were stealing a lot of money. I mean, that part is true. the money. I mean, that part is true. the money. I mean, that part is true. the sending cash tariffs back home. as you sending cash tariffs back home. as you sending cash tariffs back home. as you say, you have a more complicated say, you have a more complicated say, you have a more complicated >> to the peace and then you could like >> to the peace and then you could like >> to the peace and then you could like your your your rhetorical your your your rhetorical your your your rhetorical >> and then and then and then >> and then and then and then >> and then and then and then >> none of the people as far as I can tell >> none of the people as far as I can tell >> none of the people as far as I can tell were doing this were under temporary were doing this were under temporary were doing this were under temporary protected status which is only about 750 protected status which is only about 750 protected status which is only about 750 people right so there's this move to say people right so there's this move to say people right so there's this move to say it's not just like some criminals it's it's not just like some criminals it's it's not just like some criminals it's Somalis and it's not just some money is Somalis and it's not just some money is Somalis and it's not just some money is being scammed because of a weak banking being scammed because of a weak banking being scammed because of a weak banking sector it's they're funding terrorism sector it's they're funding terrorism sector it's they're funding terrorism and then it's to get Donald Trump to and then it's to get Donald Trump to and then it's to get Donald Trump to deport people who are unrelated ated to deport people who are unrelated ated to deport people who are unrelated ated to the crime.

the crime. the crime. >> Okay. So, a a couple points on on that >> Okay. So, a a couple points on on that >> Okay. So, a a couple points on on that on that particular argument. So on that particular argument. So on that particular argument. So the point of the the piece broadly it the point of the the piece broadly it the point of the the piece broadly it raises the question of immigration raises the question of immigration raises the question of immigration cultural compatibility and if you talk cultural compatibility and if you talk cultural compatibility and if you talk to people with an expert in Somali to people with an expert in Somali to people with an expert in Somali culture as we did and the history of culture as we did and the history of culture as we did and the history of Somalia as we did you get the clear Somalia as we did you get the clear Somalia as we did you get the clear sense that uh in Somalia there is a kind sense that uh in Somalia there is a kind sense that uh in Somalia there is a kind of kinship and clan-based culture that of kinship and clan-based culture that of kinship and clan-based culture that is prevalent for a variety of historical is prevalent for a variety of historical is prevalent for a variety of historical and and social reasons. and and social reasons. and and social reasons. And because there is a has been a weak And because there is a has been a weak And because there is a has been a weak central government, contested central central government, contested central central government, contested central government in Somalia in the modern government in Somalia in the modern government in Somalia in the modern period, there is a feeling that period, there is a feeling that period, there is a feeling that exploiting the central government um uh exploiting the central government um uh exploiting the central government um uh is uh is permissible. And I I think the is uh is permissible. And I I think the is uh is permissible. And I I think the the the underlying point which is very the the underlying point which is very the the underlying point which is very uncomfortable not just for people who uncomfortable not just for people who uncomfortable not just for people who are small L liberals but even for many are small L liberals but even for many are small L liberals but even for many conservatives is that actually all conservatives is that actually all conservatives is that actually all national culture all national cultures national culture all national cultures national culture all national cultures are not equal. And in fact, because are not equal. And in fact, because are not equal. And in fact, because immigration is a group-based or national immigration is a group-based or national immigration is a group-based or national uh border-based system, you have to be uh border-based system, you have to be uh border-based system, you have to be prudent in which nations of origin you prudent in which nations of origin you prudent in which nations of origin you prioritize in immigration. And so uh I prioritize in immigration. And so uh I prioritize in immigration. And so uh I think the the the record on Somali in think the the the record on Somali in think the the the record on Somali in the United States and elsewhere on many the United States and elsewhere on many the United States and elsewhere on many of those metrics is not good. You have of those metrics is not good. You have of those metrics is not good. You have low levels of education, high levels of low levels of education, high levels of low levels of education, high levels of welfare dependency, and you have these welfare dependency, and you have these welfare dependency, and you have these cultural incompatibilities. let's say.

cultural incompatibilities. let's say. cultural incompatibilities. let's say. And so again, And so again, And so again, in a prudent national interestbased in a prudent national interestbased in a prudent national interestbased immigration policy, I would put Somali's immigration policy, I would put Somali's immigration policy, I would put Somali's down uh lower on the list. And I think down uh lower on the list. And I think down uh lower on the list. And I think that's perfectly defensible. I don't that's perfectly defensible. I don't that's perfectly defensible. I don't have a problem saying that American have a problem saying that American have a problem saying that American immigration policy should solve our immigration policy should solve our immigration policy should solve our should serve our interests, should not should serve our interests, should not should serve our interests, should not just be omnidirectional. just be omnidirectional. just be omnidirectional. What I am saying is that to take a crime What I am saying is that to take a crime What I am saying is that to take a crime committed by a limited number of people committed by a limited number of people committed by a limited number of people then say this is something about an then say this is something about an then say this is something about an entire group of people and and you entire group of people and and you entire group of people and and you should deport these unrelated people. should deport these unrelated people. should deport these unrelated people. like that that is a bad thing to do and like that that is a bad thing to do and like that that is a bad thing to do and to yoke this sort of larger argument to yoke this sort of larger argument to yoke this sort of larger argument you're making to this much more kind of you're making to this much more kind of you're making to this much more kind of tendentious well some of the money that tendentious well some of the money that tendentious well some of the money that goes because of this [ __ ] up system goes because of this [ __ ] up system goes because of this [ __ ] up system back in Somalia can get taken by back in Somalia can get taken by back in Somalia can get taken by al-Shabaab to to finish the thought and al-Shabaab to to finish the thought and al-Shabaab to to finish the thought and then and I'll let you take it where you then and I'll let you take it where you then and I'll let you take it where you want to take it want to take it want to take it >> that that is and to to that's part of >> that that is and to to that's part of >> that that is and to to that's part of this larger point I'm trying to make to this larger point I'm trying to make to this larger point I'm trying to make to you which is that you are not putting you which is that you are not putting you which is that you are not putting like passion in service of reason you're like passion in service of reason you're like passion in service of reason you're you're unleashing things here that are you're unleashing things here that are you're unleashing things here that are like first going to really harm people like first going to really harm people like first going to really harm people who did nothing wrong right these Somali who did nothing wrong right these Somali who did nothing wrong right these Somali temporary protected stud I mean many as temporary protected stud I mean many as temporary protected stud I mean many as you say Somalia is a tough place many you say Somalia is a tough place many you say Somalia is a tough place many people flee it for completely reasonable people flee it for completely reasonable people flee it for completely reasonable reasons and we you know honor them for reasons and we you know honor them for reasons and we you know honor them for doing so and trying to make a better doing so and trying to make a better doing so and trying to make a better life for them and their families like life for them and their families like life for them and their families like they did nothing wrong I think you they did nothing wrong I think you they did nothing wrong I think you actually do believe from many things actually do believe from many things actually do believe from many things you've written in like the premisy of

you've written in like the premisy of you've written in like the premisy of thinking about the individual if you thinking about the individual if you thinking about the individual if you want to say that our immigration policy want to say that our immigration policy want to say that our immigration policy should not favor Somali. Fine, fair should not favor Somali. Fine, fair should not favor Somali. Fine, fair enough. enough. enough. >> But but our immigration, the temporary >> But but our immigration, the temporary >> But but our immigration, the temporary protected status is is based on group protected status is is based on group protected status is is based on group designations. And in fact, Somali, designations. And in fact, Somali, designations. And in fact, Somali, Haitians, Haitians, Haitians, >> but the people are going who did not do >> but the people are going who did not do >> but the people are going who did not do this crime, this crime, this crime, >> right? We agree on that part, right? >> right? We agree on that part, right? >> right? We agree on that part, right? >> Hold on. Well, let let me take it let me >> Hold on. Well, let let me take it let me >> Hold on. Well, let let me take it let me take it in pieces. So, a couple kind of take it in pieces. So, a couple kind of take it in pieces. So, a couple kind of factual problems here. You said a factual problems here. You said a factual problems here. You said a limited number of people committed these limited number of people committed these limited number of people committed these crimes. I'm actually not sure that crimes. I'm actually not sure that crimes. I'm actually not sure that that's true. And I'll and I and I'll that's true. And I'll and I and I'll that's true. And I'll and I and I'll explain it uh why I believe that. If you explain it uh why I believe that. If you explain it uh why I believe that. If you look at the actual schemes committed by look at the actual schemes committed by look at the actual schemes committed by Somali, for example, for autism Somali, for example, for autism Somali, for example, for autism services, you had members of the Somali services, you had members of the Somali services, you had members of the Somali community opening up fake clinics with community opening up fake clinics with community opening up fake clinics with fake patients that were receiving, you fake patients that were receiving, you fake patients that were receiving, you know, kind of fake treatment. And uh know, kind of fake treatment. And uh know, kind of fake treatment. And uh what we're looking at is actually a non what we're looking at is actually a non what we're looking at is actually a non insignificant number of people that were insignificant number of people that were insignificant number of people that were involved or had knowledge of these involved or had knowledge of these involved or had knowledge of these schemes as they were unfolding because schemes as they were unfolding because schemes as they were unfolding because you're talking about thousands of of you're talking about thousands of of you're talking about thousands of of patients h you know large larger family patients h you know large larger family patients h you know large larger family sizes and secondarily prosecutors told sizes and secondarily prosecutors told sizes and secondarily prosecutors told us over and over and over. We're just us over and over and over. We're just us over and over and over. We're just looking at the tip of the iceberg. We looking at the tip of the iceberg. We looking at the tip of the iceberg. We don't have the prosecutors. We don't don't have the prosecutors. We don't don't have the prosecutors. We don't have the investigators. we don't have have the investigators. we don't have have the investigators. we don't have the the the manpower to actually unravel the the the manpower to actually unravel the the the manpower to actually unravel all of these fraud schemes and so let's all of these fraud schemes and so let's all of these fraud schemes and so let's just say the median estimate kind of just say the median estimate kind of just say the median estimate kind of responsible estimate is $5 billion.

responsible estimate is $5 billion. responsible estimate is $5 billion. Well, they've only uncovered fraud Well, they've only uncovered fraud Well, they've only uncovered fraud schemes and maybe $300 million. And so schemes and maybe $300 million. And so schemes and maybe $300 million. And so that would indicate that actually the that would indicate that actually the that would indicate that actually the vast majority of the schemes were simply vast majority of the schemes were simply vast majority of the schemes were simply kind of vanishing through your fingers. kind of vanishing through your fingers. kind of vanishing through your fingers. And so you're actually getting what I And so you're actually getting what I And so you're actually getting what I believe is uh because also the Somali believe is uh because also the Somali believe is uh because also the Somali community is very concentrated in in ge community is very concentrated in in ge community is very concentrated in in ge geographically tightly integrated in geographically tightly integrated in geographically tightly integrated in kinship networks. I actually think kinship networks. I actually think kinship networks. I actually think you're getting the complicity or you're getting the complicity or you're getting the complicity or knowledge of actually a non knowledge of actually a non knowledge of actually a non insignificant part of this community. insignificant part of this community. insignificant part of this community. Are most Somali in of that? Uh I I think Are most Somali in of that? Uh I I think Are most Somali in of that? Uh I I think it's just it's just logical and I think it's just it's just logical and I think it's just it's just logical and I think that we can make this uh we can make that we can make this uh we can make that we can make this uh we can make this uh we can make the argument um with this uh we can make the argument um with this uh we can make the argument um with a high degree of certainty based on the a high degree of certainty based on the a high degree of certainty based on the court documents based on the total of court documents based on the total of court documents based on the total of fraud committed and based on how these fraud committed and based on how these fraud committed and based on how these things are structured. And then look things are structured. And then look things are structured. And then look this is uh mass fraud committed um in this is uh mass fraud committed um in this is uh mass fraud committed um in Minnesota committed now in other states Minnesota committed now in other states Minnesota committed now in other states that we're uncovering. And you know, one that we're uncovering. And you know, one that we're uncovering. And you know, one one West Coast police detective who has one West Coast police detective who has one West Coast police detective who has been looking into this said, you know, been looking into this said, you know, been looking into this said, you know, I've been I've been looking into this I've been I've been looking into this I've been I've been looking into this for 30 years, and organized fraud rings for 30 years, and organized fraud rings for 30 years, and organized fraud rings um in his experience are are committed um in his experience are are committed um in his experience are are committed um uh to a massively disproportionate um uh to a massively disproportionate um uh to a massively disproportionate amount um by foreign nationals and amount um by foreign nationals and amount um by foreign nationals and groups of uh you know, and groups of groups of uh you know, and groups of groups of uh you know, and groups of originating from uh migrant groups. So, originating from uh migrant groups. So, originating from uh migrant groups. So, >> this is a fact. It's uncomfortable. It's >> this is a fact. It's uncomfortable. It's >> this is a fact. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I didn't I didn't argue.

uncomfortable. I didn't I didn't argue. uncomfortable. I didn't I didn't argue. I didn't argue with that. Um, so I've I didn't argue with that. Um, so I've I didn't argue with that. Um, so I've not I've not done my own reporting on not I've not done my own reporting on not I've not done my own reporting on this, but this, but this, but >> but hold on. But the question then is >> but hold on. But the question then is >> but hold on. But the question then is how do we respond to that politically? how do we respond to that politically? how do we respond to that politically? And so I actually think And so I actually think And so I actually think >> Well, I want to talk about how it got >> Well, I want to talk about how it got >> Well, I want to talk about how it got responded to politically. So Donald responded to politically. So Donald responded to politically. So Donald Trump did what you wanted him to do. He Trump did what you wanted him to do. He Trump did what you wanted him to do. He um he put up a true social post on um he put up a true social post on um he put up a true social post on Thanksgiving Day, which you called Thanksgiving Day, which you called Thanksgiving Day, which you called iconic, iconic, iconic, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You you know this. You called it iconic. >> You you know this. You called it iconic. >> You you know this. You called it iconic. >> Um in which he says you sure did. >> Um in which he says you sure did. >> Um in which he says you sure did. >> All right. Let's hear it. in which he >> All right. Let's hear it. in which he >> All right. Let's hear it. in which he says refresh. says refresh. says refresh. >> Hundreds of thousands of refugees from >> Hundreds of thousands of refugees from >> Hundreds of thousands of refugees from Somalia are completely taking over the Somalia are completely taking over the Somalia are completely taking over the once great state of Minnesota. Somalian once great state of Minnesota. Somalian once great state of Minnesota. Somalian gangs are roving the streets looking for gangs are roving the streets looking for gangs are roving the streets looking for prey as our wonderful people stay locked prey as our wonderful people stay locked prey as our wonderful people stay locked in their apartments and houses hoping in their apartments and houses hoping in their apartments and houses hoping hope that they will be left alone. hope that they will be left alone. hope that they will be left alone. >> But but then it kind of moves on from >> But but then it kind of moves on from >> But but then it kind of moves on from there. So then Nick Shirley, a there. So then Nick Shirley, a there. So then Nick Shirley, a right-wing influencer, launches his own right-wing influencer, launches his own right-wing influencer, launches his own investigation of Somali fraud in in investigation of Somali fraud in in investigation of Somali fraud in in Minnesota. He starts going to daycarees Minnesota. He starts going to daycarees Minnesota. He starts going to daycarees and like knocking on them and being and like knocking on them and being and like knocking on them and being like, "Hey, is there are there kids like, "Hey, is there are there kids like, "Hey, is there are there kids here?" and these women come out and they here?" and these women come out and they here?" and these women come out and they don't speak English and they're like don't speak English and they're like don't speak English and they're like looking at him strangely. Um, this gets looking at him strangely. Um, this gets looking at him strangely. Um, this gets I think like 130 million views across I think like 130 million views across I think like 130 million views across platforms. It goes crazily viral. But I platforms. It goes crazily viral. But I platforms. It goes crazily viral. But I want to play a clip. You you did this want to play a clip. You you did this want to play a clip. You you did this podcast conversation with with Richard podcast conversation with with Richard podcast conversation with with Richard Hania where you guys were talking about Hania where you guys were talking about Hania where you guys were talking about this and I think I think what you say is this and I think I think what you say is this and I think I think what you say is interesting.

interesting. interesting. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> If you look at the Nick Shirley video >> If you look at the Nick Shirley video >> If you look at the Nick Shirley video and you really dig into it. Um, there and you really dig into it. Um, there and you really dig into it. Um, there are two things happening. Okay. On the are two things happening. Okay. On the are two things happening. Okay. On the surface, he is raising he's shining a surface, he is raising he's shining a surface, he is raising he's shining a spotlight on something that is very real spotlight on something that is very real spotlight on something that is very real that is a a kind of endemic form of that is a a kind of endemic form of that is a a kind of endemic form of corruption and he's bringing it to life corruption and he's bringing it to life corruption and he's bringing it to life through kind of Zoomer style YouTube through kind of Zoomer style YouTube through kind of Zoomer style YouTube kind of gonzo kind of gonzo kind of gonzo um uh video production. Okay. It draws um uh video production. Okay. It draws um uh video production. Okay. It draws attention to a real issue. it's driving attention to a real issue. it's driving attention to a real issue. it's driving politics in the right direction and and politics in the right direction and and politics in the right direction and and it's I think overall beneficial. it's I think overall beneficial. it's I think overall beneficial. Granted, your your critique of what's Granted, your your critique of what's Granted, your your critique of what's happening under the surface is also happening under the surface is also happening under the surface is also true. I mean, I couldn't publish uh the true. I mean, I couldn't publish uh the true. I mean, I couldn't publish uh the conclude, you know, Nick Shirley gets in conclude, you know, Nick Shirley gets in conclude, you know, Nick Shirley gets in there, sees a building as empty, and there, sees a building as empty, and there, sees a building as empty, and then assumes, oh, they're committing $70 then assumes, oh, they're committing $70 then assumes, oh, they're committing $70 million of fraud or whatever. as a million of fraud or whatever. as a million of fraud or whatever. as a journalist, as someone who has to go journalist, as someone who has to go journalist, as someone who has to go through factchecking, legal review, uh, through factchecking, legal review, uh, through factchecking, legal review, uh, kind of peer scrutiny, I kind of clam up kind of peer scrutiny, I kind of clam up kind of peer scrutiny, I kind of clam up and I'm like, "Oh, wow, man. You're and I'm like, "Oh, wow, man. You're and I'm like, "Oh, wow, man. You're gonna about to get sued because what gonna about to get sued because what gonna about to get sued because what you're saying is just not defensible as you're saying is just not defensible as you're saying is just not defensible as as a as a journalistic process." So, so as a as a journalistic process." So, so as a as a journalistic process." So, so the reason I found that to be such an the reason I found that to be such an the reason I found that to be such an interesting quote is it I feel like both interesting quote is it I feel like both interesting quote is it I feel like both sides of what we're talking about are in sides of what we're talking about are in sides of what we're talking about are in there. You know, this video is not there. You know, this video is not there. You know, this video is not strong. Let's put it that way. That strong. Let's put it that way. That strong. Let's put it that way. That there's a lot you you can't go and be there's a lot you you can't go and be there's a lot you you can't go and be like, "Show me your kids." So when they like, "Show me your kids." So when they like, "Show me your kids." So when they don't shave the kids be like this is a don't shave the kids be like this is a don't shave the kids be like this is a fraud you don't have any kids.

fraud you don't have any kids. fraud you don't have any kids. >> On the other hand the you have this like >> On the other hand the you have this like >> On the other hand the you have this like contrary feeling that well it may not be contrary feeling that well it may not be contrary feeling that well it may not be true but it it puts attention towards true but it it puts attention towards true but it it puts attention towards something real. It's like in line with something real. It's like in line with something real. It's like in line with where I want politics to go. It does where I want politics to go. It does where I want politics to go. It does become a huge issue. We'll talk about become a huge issue. We'll talk about become a huge issue. We'll talk about like what it what it leads to and and like what it what it leads to and and like what it what it leads to and and like I can feel this tension. So I mean like I can feel this tension. So I mean like I can feel this tension. So I mean how do you balance that? how do you balance that? how do you balance that? >> Yeah. I mean well first of all uh it's a >> Yeah. I mean well first of all uh it's a >> Yeah. I mean well first of all uh it's a free country. everyone has a first free country. everyone has a first free country. everyone has a first amendment right and so therefore uh you amendment right and so therefore uh you amendment right and so therefore uh you I you can't say I don't like this for I you can't say I don't like this for I you can't say I don't like this for these reasons therefore you shouldn't be these reasons therefore you shouldn't be these reasons therefore you shouldn't be able to do it but I think this is just able to do it but I think this is just able to do it but I think this is just another instance an example of the right another instance an example of the right another instance an example of the right being underinstitutionalized being underinstitutionalized being underinstitutionalized and so what I would say is that an ideal and so what I would say is that an ideal and so what I would say is that an ideal say uh outcome or method would be to say uh outcome or method would be to say uh outcome or method would be to take someone that has charisma that has take someone that has charisma that has take someone that has charisma that has courage that has curiosity someone like courage that has curiosity someone like courage that has curiosity someone like Nick Shirley and then integrate that Nick Shirley and then integrate that Nick Shirley and then integrate that into an institution to put up those uh into an institution to put up those uh into an institution to put up those uh guard rails uh to refine and and and guard rails uh to refine and and and guard rails uh to refine and and and really improve the the product itself uh really improve the the product itself uh really improve the the product itself uh and then to use that attention toward and then to use that attention toward and then to use that attention toward productive ends. And so um that would be productive ends. And so um that would be productive ends. And so um that would be like the ideal that's the kind of thing like the ideal that's the kind of thing like the ideal that's the kind of thing that I think would be good. But the that I think would be good. But the that I think would be good. But the reality is that on the right the media reality is that on the right the media reality is that on the right the media is so fragmented and the media is so fragmented and the media is so fragmented and the media institutions institutions institutions um are are are not that strong, not that um are are are not that strong, not that um are are are not that strong, not that well-developed well-developed well-developed um and in many cases uh you know highly um and in many cases uh you know highly um and in many cases uh you know highly riskaverse for obvious reasons and riskaverse for obvious reasons and riskaverse for obvious reasons and therefore there's an entire territory

therefore there's an entire territory therefore there's an entire territory that is seated to people. I don't even that is seated to people. I don't even that is seated to people. I don't even know if Nick Shirley is right-wing. I'm know if Nick Shirley is right-wing. I'm know if Nick Shirley is right-wing. I'm not sure I would even categorize him as not sure I would even categorize him as not sure I would even categorize him as as that. I think um the story landed in as that. I think um the story landed in as that. I think um the story landed in that particular manner. But you have that particular manner. But you have that particular manner. But you have people independent. people independent. people independent. >> She's not leftwing. >> She's not leftwing. >> She's not leftwing. >> Let's say citizen journalists. I think >> Let's say citizen journalists. I think >> Let's say citizen journalists. I think that was the phrase for a while. There that was the phrase for a while. There that was the phrase for a while. There was great hope in the citizen was great hope in the citizen was great hope in the citizen journalist. Um you know, journalist. Um you know, journalist. Um you know, love citizens, love journalists. Um love citizens, love journalists. Um love citizens, love journalists. Um citizen journalist is is one of those citizen journalist is is one of those citizen journalist is is one of those things like it sounds good in theory, things like it sounds good in theory, things like it sounds good in theory, but in practice there are some real but in practice there are some real but in practice there are some real limitations. And so it is what it is. limitations. And so it is what it is. limitations. And so it is what it is. What are you going to do about it? You What are you going to do about it? You What are you going to do about it? You know, this is the kind of thing where as know, this is the kind of thing where as know, this is the kind of thing where as an individual, my only reaction is to an individual, my only reaction is to an individual, my only reaction is to say you can put out a kind of remedy, say you can put out a kind of remedy, say you can put out a kind of remedy, suggestion for remedy, but it's not suggestion for remedy, but it's not suggestion for remedy, but it's not within my direction. within my direction. within my direction. >> That's the thing I'm asking, not as an >> That's the thing I'm asking, not as an >> That's the thing I'm asking, not as an individual, but as an an activist and an individual, but as an an activist and an individual, but as an an activist and an analyst and somebody influential in the analyst and somebody influential in the analyst and somebody influential in the administration that responds to these administration that responds to these administration that responds to these stories, yours, his, by stories, yours, his, by stories, yours, his, by uh deploying a giant ICE and Border uh deploying a giant ICE and Border uh deploying a giant ICE and Border Patrol deployment to Minnesota. That Patrol deployment to Minnesota. That Patrol deployment to Minnesota. That deployment ultimately and the fighting deployment ultimately and the fighting deployment ultimately and the fighting around it leaves Renee Good and Alex around it leaves Renee Good and Alex around it leaves Renee Good and Alex Prey dead. Minneapolis calculated the Prey dead. Minneapolis calculated the Prey dead. Minneapolis calculated the economic impact of the raids at at least economic impact of the raids at at least economic impact of the raids at at least around $700 million. Joe Thompson, the around $700 million. Joe Thompson, the around $700 million. Joe Thompson, the acting US attorney in Minnesota, who was acting US attorney in Minnesota, who was acting US attorney in Minnesota, who was leading the fraud investigations. He was leading the fraud investigations. He was leading the fraud investigations. He was quoted quite a bit in your original quoted quite a bit in your original quoted quite a bit in your original piece. He resigns in anger after Trump's piece. He resigns in anger after Trump's piece. He resigns in anger after Trump's Department of Justice demands his office Department of Justice demands his office Department of Justice demands his office investigate Renee Good's wife. So, I investigate Renee Good's wife. So, I investigate Renee Good's wife. So, I mean, to me, I look at all this and I mean, to me, I look at all this and I mean, to me, I look at all this and I say like that wasn't beneficial. This say like that wasn't beneficial. This say like that wasn't beneficial. This was catastrophic. I mean, it it harmed was catastrophic. I mean, it it harmed was catastrophic. I mean, it it harmed people's lives. It led to people dying.

people's lives. It led to people dying. people's lives. It led to people dying. It was bad for the Minnesota economy. It was bad for the Minnesota economy. It was bad for the Minnesota economy. Um, it led to the fraud stuff getting, Um, it led to the fraud stuff getting, Um, it led to the fraud stuff getting, you know, completely sidelined. Um, and you know, completely sidelined. Um, and you know, completely sidelined. Um, and the person who was pushing it resigning the person who was pushing it resigning the person who was pushing it resigning that that that that this did not go in a good direction that this did not go in a good direction that this did not go in a good direction in part because it wasn't based on good in part because it wasn't based on good in part because it wasn't based on good information. But like now, like looking information. But like now, like looking information. But like now, like looking back at the whole thing, do you disagree back at the whole thing, do you disagree back at the whole thing, do you disagree with that? with that? with that? >> Yeah, I would disagree. So, so, so, >> Yeah, I would disagree. So, so, so, >> Yeah, I would disagree. So, so, so, well, I would agree with certain points, well, I would agree with certain points, well, I would agree with certain points, but I I would refine them and disagree but I I would refine them and disagree but I I would refine them and disagree with others. So, with others. So, with others. So, uh, I mean, the fraud work is uh, I mean, the fraud work is uh, I mean, the fraud work is continuing. The vice president is now continuing. The vice president is now continuing. The vice president is now chairing an anti-fraud task force. chairing an anti-fraud task force. chairing an anti-fraud task force. They've significantly increased the They've significantly increased the They've significantly increased the manpower to look into fraud. Um that manpower to look into fraud. Um that manpower to look into fraud. Um that said, like it was a bad strategic said, like it was a bad strategic said, like it was a bad strategic decision to deploy force, Customs and decision to deploy force, Customs and decision to deploy force, Customs and Border Patrol, uh ICE agents, um with Border Patrol, uh ICE agents, um with Border Patrol, uh ICE agents, um with that kind of force posture. Um it's a that kind of force posture. Um it's a that kind of force posture. Um it's a no-win situation. Uh and I was advising no-win situation. Uh and I was advising no-win situation. Uh and I was advising against it from even the previous against it from even the previous against it from even the previous summer. Uh and so in in that particular summer. Uh and so in in that particular summer. Uh and so in in that particular case, I would say it was ill- advised.

case, I would say it was ill- advised. case, I would say it was ill- advised. And I think that finally the And I think that finally the And I think that finally the administration has learned that they administration has learned that they administration has learned that they reshuffled DHS, they reshuffled Customs reshuffled DHS, they reshuffled Customs reshuffled DHS, they reshuffled Customs and Border Patrol. And if you want to um and Border Patrol. And if you want to um and Border Patrol. And if you want to um if you want to um create deportations at if you want to um create deportations at if you want to um create deportations at scale of illegal immigrants, you have to scale of illegal immigrants, you have to scale of illegal immigrants, you have to do so um in what I've kind of called an do so um in what I've kind of called an do so um in what I've kind of called an invisible manner, an impersonal manner. invisible manner, an impersonal manner. invisible manner, an impersonal manner. You have to change banking regulations, You have to change banking regulations, You have to change banking regulations, financial transfers, remittance fees, financial transfers, remittance fees, financial transfers, remittance fees, um, uh, you know, employment, employment um, uh, you know, employment, employment um, uh, you know, employment, employment verification verification verification to, uh, incentivize self-deportation to, uh, incentivize self-deportation to, uh, incentivize self-deportation because the idea that you could deport, because the idea that you could deport, because the idea that you could deport, um, uh, people by simply like sending um, uh, people by simply like sending um, uh, people by simply like sending in, you know, armored cars with ICE in, you know, armored cars with ICE in, you know, armored cars with ICE agents on the side is is is delusional. agents on the side is is is delusional. agents on the side is is is delusional. It's it's never going to happen. I think It's it's never going to happen. I think It's it's never going to happen. I think there's part of the right that wants there's part of the right that wants there's part of the right that wants that kind of macho imagery, but if you that kind of macho imagery, but if you that kind of macho imagery, but if you look at the underlying substantive look at the underlying substantive look at the underlying substantive um policy that you want to enact, I um policy that you want to enact, I um policy that you want to enact, I think it's detrimental. And in fact, the think it's detrimental. And in fact, the think it's detrimental. And in fact, the the situation in Minneapolis the situation in Minneapolis the situation in Minneapolis um again, you know, um again, you know, um again, you know, in that sense was did not achieve the in that sense was did not achieve the in that sense was did not achieve the stated objective for reasons that that I stated objective for reasons that that I stated objective for reasons that that I I and others had had predicted. Let I and others had had predicted. Let I and others had had predicted. Let >> me pick up on the the front. And and to >> me pick up on the the front. And and to >> me pick up on the the front. And and to me it's also it it's annoying to me me it's also it it's annoying to me me it's also it it's annoying to me personally because we I I think fraud personally because we I I think fraud personally because we I I think fraud huge winning issue. No one wants fraud.

huge winning issue. No one wants fraud. huge winning issue. No one wants fraud. It's a huge problem in the country. If It's a huge problem in the country. If It's a huge problem in the country. If you had if you could just focus on that you had if you could just focus on that you had if you could just focus on that you could rally not only Republicans who you could rally not only Republicans who you could rally not only Republicans who are traditionally kind of you know uh are traditionally kind of you know uh are traditionally kind of you know uh small government but you could also small government but you could also small government but you could also bring into the coalition moderate bring into the coalition moderate bring into the coalition moderate Democrats who want good governance. And Democrats who want good governance. And Democrats who want good governance. And so to me personally, I found it very uh so to me personally, I found it very uh so to me personally, I found it very uh uh you know very uh very upsetting uh you know very uh very upsetting uh you know very uh very upsetting because it's like hey we have this because it's like hey we have this because it's like hey we have this winning issue, focus on the issue, winning issue, focus on the issue, winning issue, focus on the issue, execute the policy at scale, save the execute the policy at scale, save the execute the policy at scale, save the taxpayers money. Um you know you're taxpayers money. Um you know you're taxpayers money. Um you know you're you're giving someone a a g a nicely you're giving someone a a g a nicely you're giving someone a a g a nicely wrapped gift and you just wish that they wrapped gift and you just wish that they wrapped gift and you just wish that they would take it. Uh in this case it didn't would take it. Uh in this case it didn't would take it. Uh in this case it didn't happen that way. happen that way. happen that way. >> It feels to me like the fraud problem >> It feels to me like the fraud problem >> It feels to me like the fraud problem for you all is bigger than this. for you all is bigger than this. for you all is bigger than this. According to a Times analysis, across According to a Times analysis, across According to a Times analysis, across his two terms, Trump has granted his two terms, Trump has granted his two terms, Trump has granted clemency to more than 70 allies, donors, clemency to more than 70 allies, donors, clemency to more than 70 allies, donors, and others convicted in fraud cases, and others convicted in fraud cases, and others convicted in fraud cases, including Philip Esformis, who stole including Philip Esformis, who stole including Philip Esformis, who stole $1.3 billion from Medicare and Medicaid $1.3 billion from Medicare and Medicaid $1.3 billion from Medicare and Medicaid in a fraudulent billing scheme. It was in a fraudulent billing scheme. It was in a fraudulent billing scheme. It was the FBI's largest ever criminal the FBI's largest ever criminal the FBI's largest ever criminal healthcare fraud case against healthcare fraud case against healthcare fraud case against individuals. Trump commuted his 20-year individuals. Trump commuted his 20-year individuals. Trump commuted his 20-year prison term.

prison term. prison term. >> You're not going to get me to defend it. >> You're not going to get me to defend it. >> You're not going to get me to defend it. I I would in fact, I I would in fact, I I would in fact, >> but I don't see you really attacking it >> but I don't see you really attacking it >> but I don't see you really attacking it either. either. either. >> I'll attack it right now. >> I'll attack it right now. >> I'll attack it right now. >> Okay. shouldn't have done that. And in >> Okay. shouldn't have done that. And in >> Okay. shouldn't have done that. And in fact, you know, if if if these people fact, you know, if if if these people fact, you know, if if if these people were convicted of fraud at that scale, were convicted of fraud at that scale, were convicted of fraud at that scale, uh 20 years seems like a light prison uh 20 years seems like a light prison uh 20 years seems like a light prison sentence. I would double it personally. sentence. I would double it personally. sentence. I would double it personally. And so, yeah, this is the push I'm And so, yeah, this is the push I'm And so, yeah, this is the push I'm making, and I recognize you're not going making, and I recognize you're not going making, and I recognize you're not going to defend this, but there is this to defend this, but there is this to defend this, but there is this movement on the right right now to to movement on the right right now to to movement on the right right now to to focus on fraud. You've been very much focus on fraud. You've been very much focus on fraud. You've been very much leading this. Meanwhile, I look at Trump leading this. Meanwhile, I look at Trump leading this. Meanwhile, I look at Trump and he's gutted the machinery of and he's gutted the machinery of and he's gutted the machinery of anti-fraud enforcement all across the anti-fraud enforcement all across the anti-fraud enforcement all across the federal government. He gutted it at the federal government. He gutted it at the federal government. He gutted it at the IRS. There's a tremendous amount of IRS. There's a tremendous amount of IRS. There's a tremendous amount of fraud in tax returns. We all know that. fraud in tax returns. We all know that. fraud in tax returns. We all know that. And huge amounts of money are being And huge amounts of money are being And huge amounts of money are being stolen under those terms because now you stolen under those terms because now you stolen under those terms because now you the the audit capacity has gone way the the audit capacity has gone way the the audit capacity has gone way down. He gutted inspectors general down. He gutted inspectors general down. He gutted inspectors general across the federal government. People across the federal government. People across the federal government. People seeing what is happening inside these seeing what is happening inside these seeing what is happening inside these organizations. He destroyed the Consumer organizations. He destroyed the Consumer organizations. He destroyed the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau which did a Financial Protection Bureau which did a Financial Protection Bureau which did a lot of anti-fraud work. lot of anti-fraud work. lot of anti-fraud work. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> debatable. >> debatable. >> debatable. >> I recognize we would debate it. >> I recognize we would debate it. >> I recognize we would debate it. What I don't think is debatable is that What I don't think is debatable is that What I don't think is debatable is that Trump and this administration have sort Trump and this administration have sort Trump and this administration have sort of systematically gone across the of systematically gone across the of systematically gone across the federal government and taken apart federal government and taken apart federal government and taken apart um parts of the government that are um parts of the government that are um parts of the government that are supposed to watch if the government supposed to watch if the government supposed to watch if the government itself um is committing fraud and if you itself um is committing fraud and if you itself um is committing fraud and if you know taxpayers and and and others are. I know taxpayers and and and others are. I know taxpayers and and and others are. I just I look at the country right now and just I look at the country right now and just I look at the country right now and I see Donald Trump has like you like I see Donald Trump has like you like I see Donald Trump has like you like using piracy around the Somali. I think using piracy around the Somali. I think using piracy around the Somali. I think of the Trump and the Trump family as of the Trump and the Trump family as of the Trump and the Trump family as pirates. I think that they are looting pirates. I think that they are looting pirates. I think that they are looting the country for their benefit. I think

the country for their benefit. I think the country for their benefit. I think that that's what the Qatari plane is. I that that's what the Qatari plane is. I that that's what the Qatari plane is. I think that that's what the crypto think that that's what the crypto think that that's what the crypto investments are. I think that's how investments are. I think that's how investments are. I think that's how Trump and his family have increased Trump and his family have increased Trump and his family have increased their net worth by billions of dollars. their net worth by billions of dollars. their net worth by billions of dollars. And I'm not saying you support it, but I And I'm not saying you support it, but I And I'm not saying you support it, but I don't understand how you think you're don't understand how you think you're don't understand how you think you're going to have like a right that is doing going to have like a right that is doing going to have like a right that is doing good governance and that is taking these good governance and that is taking these good governance and that is taking these things institutionally seriously and things institutionally seriously and things institutionally seriously and have that be what is happening at the have that be what is happening at the have that be what is happening at the very top. very top. very top. >> Sure. And let's take let's take pardons >> Sure. And let's take let's take pardons >> Sure. And let's take let's take pardons as the most concrete example. Um yes, I as the most concrete example. Um yes, I as the most concrete example. Um yes, I agree. Uh I think you and I would agree agree. Uh I think you and I would agree agree. Uh I think you and I would agree and you know I I'm political but in a and you know I I'm political but in a and you know I I'm political but in a sense not partisan in that way. I'm not sense not partisan in that way. I'm not sense not partisan in that way. I'm not going to reflexively defend every going to reflexively defend every going to reflexively defend every decision by someone in my camp or the decision by someone in my camp or the decision by someone in my camp or the president of the United States. And in president of the United States. And in president of the United States. And in fact a lot of those pardons um ill fact a lot of those pardons um ill fact a lot of those pardons um ill advised shouldn't have done it. And advised shouldn't have done it. And advised shouldn't have done it. And because in the reporting that I've read, because in the reporting that I've read, because in the reporting that I've read, a number of those individuals had also a number of those individuals had also a number of those individuals had also been putting money into various lobbies been putting money into various lobbies been putting money into various lobbies and various uh attempts to influence and and various uh attempts to influence and and various uh attempts to influence and various, you know, campaign funds or various, you know, campaign funds or various, you know, campaign funds or committee funds or however the the committee funds or however the the committee funds or however the the finances work. um you create the the a finances work. um you create the the a finances work. um you create the the a perception of corruption uh that is not perception of corruption uh that is not perception of corruption uh that is not good and does in some ways uh undercut good and does in some ways uh undercut good and does in some ways uh undercut the uh the the good work of combating the uh the the good work of combating the uh the the good work of combating systematic social service fraud as a systematic social service fraud as a systematic social service fraud as a whole. But from my point of view and how whole. But from my point of view and how whole. But from my point of view and how I have to look at it is okay, you live I have to look at it is okay, you live I have to look at it is okay, you live in an imperfect world. Uh you don't have in an imperfect world. Uh you don't have in an imperfect world. Uh you don't have ultimate control. My influence is great

ultimate control. My influence is great ultimate control. My influence is great on the things I care about on DEI, on on the things I care about on DEI, on on the things I care about on DEI, on higher education, defunding NPR, higher education, defunding NPR, higher education, defunding NPR, whatever. Like go down the list of of of whatever. Like go down the list of of of whatever. Like go down the list of of of uh you've been very influential of but uh you've been very influential of but uh you've been very influential of but the the the the kind of the the the the kind of the the the the kind of >> the implicit premise of of your >> the implicit premise of of your >> the implicit premise of of your criticism, which again I I take criticism, which again I I take criticism, which again I I take seriously and I and I think it's a fair seriously and I and I think it's a fair seriously and I and I think it's a fair criticism, criticism, criticism, >> is oh therefore, you know, you you you >> is oh therefore, you know, you you you >> is oh therefore, you know, you you you should give up. You should turn against should give up. You should turn against should give up. You should turn against the good work that's being done. it's the good work that's being done. it's the good work that's being done. it's kind of canceled out or invalidated kind of canceled out or invalidated kind of canceled out or invalidated because of something that's happening because of something that's happening because of something that's happening over here. And my personal policy is over here. And my personal policy is over here. And my personal policy is where there's where there's necessary where there's where there's necessary where there's where there's necessary criticism, I'll create I'll give the criticism, I'll create I'll give the criticism, I'll create I'll give the criticism, but I'm not going to stop to criticism, but I'm not going to stop to criticism, but I'm not going to stop to work in that little sphere of influence work in that little sphere of influence work in that little sphere of influence that I have to do good. And so, you that I have to do good. And so, you that I have to do good. And so, you know, I'm kind of walking the line, know, I'm kind of walking the line, know, I'm kind of walking the line, right, where I will issue the criticism right, where I will issue the criticism right, where I will issue the criticism as necessary. And if that reduces my as necessary. And if that reduces my as necessary. And if that reduces my influence in a certain regard, I'm influence in a certain regard, I'm influence in a certain regard, I'm willing to accept it. And uh while I willing to accept it. And uh while I willing to accept it. And uh while I would certainly, you know, uh speak out would certainly, you know, uh speak out would certainly, you know, uh speak out against uh I think the crypto thing was against uh I think the crypto thing was against uh I think the crypto thing was was was just, you know, was was just, you know, was was just, you know, >> and it is ongoing.

>> and it is ongoing. >> and it is ongoing. >> It's ongoing. Yeah. >> It's ongoing. Yeah. >> It's ongoing. Yeah. >> Their crypto plays are ongoing. World >> Their crypto plays are ongoing. World >> Their crypto plays are ongoing. World Liberty and all this stuff is ongoing. Liberty and all this stuff is ongoing. Liberty and all this stuff is ongoing. >> Sure. Yeah. and and uh and and at the >> Sure. Yeah. and and uh and and at the >> Sure. Yeah. and and uh and and at the end of the day when I you know when I end of the day when I you know when I end of the day when I you know when I sit down in my office uh you know at sit down in my office uh you know at sit down in my office uh you know at 7:30 a.m. every morning I'm like all 7:30 a.m. every morning I'm like all 7:30 a.m. every morning I'm like all right how can we win? How can we move right how can we win? How can we move right how can we win? How can we move the ball forward? How can we do good the ball forward? How can we do good the ball forward? How can we do good policy? And ultimately at the end of the policy? And ultimately at the end of the policy? And ultimately at the end of the day that's all that's within my control day that's all that's within my control day that's all that's within my control and and that's the that's the attitude and and that's the that's the attitude and and that's the that's the attitude that I bring to the fight. that I bring to the fight. that I bring to the fight. >> I think you underestimate yourself. The >> I think you underestimate yourself. The >> I think you underestimate yourself. The the point I'm making is I'll explain it the point I'm making is I'll explain it the point I'm making is I'll explain it to you. I will the point I'm making is to you. I will the point I'm making is to you. I will the point I'm making is actually a little bit even larger than actually a little bit even larger than actually a little bit even larger than you. Um, look, the one reason I have you you. Um, look, the one reason I have you you. Um, look, the one reason I have you here for this conversation is I think here for this conversation is I think here for this conversation is I think you're very very good at what you do. I you're very very good at what you do. I you're very very good at what you do. I think you're probably the most think you're probably the most think you're probably the most successful activist, certainly successful activist, certainly successful activist, certainly right-wing activist of this era, right-wing activist of this era, right-wing activist of this era, >> but maybe overall you're saying, >> but maybe overall you're saying, >> but maybe overall you're saying, >> huh? >> huh? >> huh? >> Maybe overall. Maybe left and right in >> Maybe overall. Maybe left and right in >> Maybe overall. Maybe left and right in general. general. general. >> Maybe. Maybe. Right. >> Maybe. Maybe. Right. >> Maybe. Maybe. Right. >> I'll take it. >> I'll take it. >> I'll take it. >> And look, you and I are not going to >> And look, you and I are not going to >> And look, you and I are not going to agree on a million things, right? My agree on a million things, right? My agree on a million things, right? My point is not to convert you to my point is not to convert you to my point is not to convert you to my politics. I'm not going to do that. politics. I'm not going to do that. politics. I'm not going to do that. >> You should try. I mean, why not? I'm >> You should try. I mean, why not? I'm >> You should try. I mean, why not? I'm trying to convert you. trying to convert you. trying to convert you. >> Listen, we we talk. Um, but >> Listen, we we talk. Um, but >> Listen, we we talk. Um, but I think that the rights I think that the rights I think that the rights inability to hold itself to certain inability to hold itself to certain inability to hold itself to certain epistemological or institutional epistemological or institutional epistemological or institutional standards, standards of, let's not call standards, standards of, let's not call standards, standards of, let's not call it neutrality, let's call it it neutrality, let's call it it neutrality, let's call it impartiality at the institutional level, impartiality at the institutional level, impartiality at the institutional level, at the federal government level. What at the federal government level. What at the federal government level. What the right is accepting that Donald Trump the right is accepting that Donald Trump the right is accepting that Donald Trump is doing is insane in my view.

is doing is insane in my view. is doing is insane in my view. >> Okay? and the epistemological standards >> Okay? and the epistemological standards >> Okay? and the epistemological standards and Nick Shirley stuff is and some of and Nick Shirley stuff is and some of and Nick Shirley stuff is and some of your things in my view which go again I your things in my view which go again I your things in my view which go again I think you're careful in like the the the think you're careful in like the the the think you're careful in like the the the body and then not always in the body and then not always in the body and then not always in the promotion and the weaponization of it promotion and the weaponization of it promotion and the weaponization of it >> it >> it >> it careful in the careful in the careful in the >> I think that are defensible but you >> I think that are defensible but you >> I think that are defensible but you think I take the rhetorical flourish too think I take the rhetorical flourish too think I take the rhetorical flourish too far as far as far as >> and then beyond you I think there's a >> and then beyond you I think there's a >> and then beyond you I think there's a generalized view that we need to unleash generalized view that we need to unleash generalized view that we need to unleash these passions there's been too much these passions there's been too much these passions there's been too much that has been unsayable that has been unsayable that has been unsayable And we need to make sure we can say it And we need to make sure we can say it And we need to make sure we can say it all again. And the result of this is all again. And the result of this is all again. And the result of this is like a like a hydraulic process, not like a like a hydraulic process, not like a like a hydraulic process, not like some future result, but a current like some future result, but a current like some future result, but a current result where when I look at the Spotify result where when I look at the Spotify result where when I look at the Spotify rankings, the um right of center figures rankings, the um right of center figures rankings, the um right of center figures on the top have become highly on the top have become highly on the top have become highly conspiratorial and you know there conspiratorial and you know there conspiratorial and you know there figures like Fuentes Rising and we need figures like Fuentes Rising and we need figures like Fuentes Rising and we need a strong right in this country. a strong right in this country. a strong right in this country. >> I would so I'd ask you a question then. >> I would so I'd ask you a question then. >> I would so I'd ask you a question then. Has the has the New York Times editorial Has the has the New York Times editorial Has the has the New York Times editorial line, right, the the editorial line, has line, right, the the editorial line, has line, right, the the editorial line, has it moved more in my direction since 2020 it moved more in my direction since 2020 it moved more in my direction since 2020 or have I moved more in its direction or have I moved more in its direction or have I moved more in its direction since 2020?

since 2020? since 2020? >> I'm not sure the way you have moved >> I'm not sure the way you have moved >> I'm not sure the way you have moved since 2020. since 2020. since 2020. >> I haven't moved at all. >> I haven't moved at all. >> I haven't moved at all. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, if I'm the baseline, >> So, if I'm the baseline, >> So, if I'm the baseline, >> so I think you're saying it's moved in >> so I think you're saying it's moved in >> so I think you're saying it's moved in your direction. your direction. your direction. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> You look at the the big piece on DEI, >> You look at the the big piece on DEI, >> You look at the the big piece on DEI, you know, you had editorialists saying you know, you had editorialists saying you know, you had editorialists saying that I was, you know, some sort of that I was, you know, some sort of that I was, you know, some sort of villain on DEI. villain on DEI. villain on DEI. >> Let's agree. Let's agree moves back. >> Let's agree. Let's agree moves back. >> Let's agree. Let's agree moves back. >> Let's agree you've won some fights. I am >> Let's agree you've won some fights. I am >> Let's agree you've won some fights. I am saying that they're like the right in my saying that they're like the right in my saying that they're like the right in my view right as somebody who I think view right as somebody who I think view right as somebody who I think actually has a good record of actually has a good record of actually has a good record of criticizing my own right I pushed Joe criticizing my own right I pushed Joe criticizing my own right I pushed Joe Biden to you know when that was like a Biden to you know when that was like a Biden to you know when that was like a much more dangerous thing for me to do much more dangerous thing for me to do much more dangerous thing for me to do >> agree >> agree >> agree >> uh I wrote abundance which is entirely >> uh I wrote abundance which is entirely >> uh I wrote abundance which is entirely critique of democratic governance critique of democratic governance critique of democratic governance >> and >> and >> and where the right has gone I think is not where the right has gone I think is not where the right has gone I think is not going to work and what's interesting to going to work and what's interesting to going to work and what's interesting to me about you right now is I'll watch me about you right now is I'll watch me about you right now is I'll watch your show and I can see you and your your show and I can see you and your your show and I can see you and your co-host co-host co-host wrestling with these questions. Sure. wrestling with these questions. Sure. wrestling with these questions. Sure. >> Right. I don't think you're comfortable. >> Right. I don't think you're comfortable. >> Right. I don't think you're comfortable. But ultimately, there's like two But ultimately, there's like two But ultimately, there's like two problems that I see the right having problems that I see the right having problems that I see the right having that it really does not know how to that it really does not know how to that it really does not know how to solve. One problem is its attentional solve. One problem is its attentional solve. One problem is its attentional sphere.

sphere. sphere. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Is pathological. >> Is pathological. >> Is pathological. >> Parts of it are >> Parts of it are >> Parts of it are >> parts of it are. And it doesn't have a >> parts of it are. And it doesn't have a >> parts of it are. And it doesn't have a lot of institutional strength there. Um, lot of institutional strength there. Um, lot of institutional strength there. Um, and the second is that and the second is that and the second is that you cannot challenge Donald Trump. You you cannot challenge Donald Trump. You you cannot challenge Donald Trump. You can sort of say some things he's doing can sort of say some things he's doing can sort of say some things he's doing you don't like, you know, maybe wouldn't you don't like, you know, maybe wouldn't you don't like, you know, maybe wouldn't fully support, but Donald Trump is the fully support, but Donald Trump is the fully support, but Donald Trump is the sun king and he has to be obeyed or you sun king and he has to be obeyed or you sun king and he has to be obeyed or you get if you go too hard and shown his get if you go too hard and shown his get if you go too hard and shown his ability to do it. ability to do it. ability to do it. >> If you go too hard, you get like pushed >> If you go too hard, you get like pushed >> If you go too hard, you get like pushed out in a way maybe you can't come back out in a way maybe you can't come back out in a way maybe you can't come back from. And those two things are allowing from. And those two things are allowing from. And those two things are allowing a tremendous amount of bad ideas of a tremendous amount of bad ideas of a tremendous amount of bad ideas of actual corruption of um actual corruption of um actual corruption of um just the institutional and just the institutional and just the institutional and non-institutional rot to occur and like non-institutional rot to occur and like non-institutional rot to occur and like we're all going to pay for it because we're all going to pay for it because we're all going to pay for it because right now we're all living under right now we're all living under right now we're all living under right-wing governance. So I have a I right-wing governance. So I have a I right-wing governance. So I have a I have a lot of worry about this, right? I have a lot of worry about this, right? I have a lot of worry about this, right? I I don't need just like my point is not I don't need just like my point is not I don't need just like my point is not you should become a liberal but the you should become a liberal but the you should become a liberal but the right right right >> has some real issues. I I would agree >> has some real issues. I I would agree >> has some real issues. I I would agree that the right has some real uh that the right has some real uh that the right has some real uh challenges and this is universal right challenges and this is universal right challenges and this is universal right there's no entirely virtuous effective there's no entirely virtuous effective there's no entirely virtuous effective discipline political movement uh every discipline political movement uh every discipline political movement uh every political movement has a certain political movement has a certain political movement has a certain fermentation a certain amount of fermentation a certain amount of fermentation a certain amount of internal conflict you have to figure out internal conflict you have to figure out internal conflict you have to figure out how to resolve disputes settle questions how to resolve disputes settle questions how to resolve disputes settle questions and what I've tried to do especially in and what I've tried to do especially in and what I've tried to do especially in the last say year and a half uh since the last say year and a half uh since the last say year and a half uh since Trump has become president again is Trump has become president again is Trump has become president again is bring a lot of those conversations into

bring a lot of those conversations into bring a lot of those conversations into the open. And I I I think that while the open. And I I I think that while the open. And I I I think that while there are these real challenges, the there are these real challenges, the there are these real challenges, the epistemological machine of the right um epistemological machine of the right um epistemological machine of the right um has some real uh weak spots, some real has some real uh weak spots, some real has some real uh weak spots, some real flaws, some real vulnerabilities. Um flaws, some real vulnerabilities. Um flaws, some real vulnerabilities. Um while Trump's um kind of kind of highly while Trump's um kind of kind of highly while Trump's um kind of kind of highly individualized, charismatic presidency individualized, charismatic presidency individualized, charismatic presidency that is charismatic rather than legal, that is charismatic rather than legal, that is charismatic rather than legal, rational or um or traditional. the Max rational or um or traditional. the Max rational or um or traditional. the Max Vber, you know, triangle of of of Vber, you know, triangle of of of Vber, you know, triangle of of of legitimacy and authority. Um, legitimacy and authority. Um, legitimacy and authority. Um, the reality is that, okay, then let's the reality is that, okay, then let's the reality is that, okay, then let's solve it. We this is the conversation we solve it. We this is the conversation we solve it. We this is the conversation we need to have. These are the problems we need to have. These are the problems we need to have. These are the problems we need to grapple with. The charismatic need to grapple with. The charismatic need to grapple with. The charismatic leadership has enormous benefits. It leadership has enormous benefits. It leadership has enormous benefits. It also has uh it also creates a series of also has uh it also creates a series of also has uh it also creates a series of underlying uh problems to solve. But I I underlying uh problems to solve. But I I underlying uh problems to solve. But I I I think that all of these can be I think that all of these can be I think that all of these can be resolved productively. I think the resolved productively. I think the resolved productively. I think the people in charge of the conservative people in charge of the conservative people in charge of the conservative institutions institutions institutions uh still in general have good uh still in general have good uh still in general have good epistemological judgment uh intuitions, epistemological judgment uh intuitions, epistemological judgment uh intuitions, attitudes um and I think that you know attitudes um and I think that you know attitudes um and I think that you know politics moves forward and I think politics moves forward and I think politics moves forward and I think actually after you know Trump is uh is actually after you know Trump is uh is actually after you know Trump is uh is is in his last term if depending on how is in his last term if depending on how is in his last term if depending on how things go with the house this might be things go with the house this might be things go with the house this might be the really last kind of truly effective the really last kind of truly effective the really last kind of truly effective moment for for for the Trump presidency.

moment for for for the Trump presidency. moment for for for the Trump presidency. And then we ask the next question. And And then we ask the next question. And And then we ask the next question. And so the reality is that you have to move so the reality is that you have to move so the reality is that you have to move forward. You have to work within forward. You have to work within forward. You have to work within imperfect conditions. One of my imperfect conditions. One of my imperfect conditions. One of my critiques of the right right now and I critiques of the right right now and I critiques of the right right now and I have my own of the left and I've talked have my own of the left and I've talked have my own of the left and I've talked about many of them. But I think the about many of them. But I think the about many of them. But I think the right likes to talk about virtue and right likes to talk about virtue and right likes to talk about virtue and doesn't insist on it and virtue to go doesn't insist on it and virtue to go doesn't insist on it and virtue to go back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about around uh tilos and your tilos is very around uh tilos and your tilos is very around uh tilos and your tilos is very much in part about restraining the much in part about restraining the much in part about restraining the passions and channeling them passions and channeling them passions and channeling them productively. There's a lot of talk productively. There's a lot of talk productively. There's a lot of talk about virtue, but the people who are about virtue, but the people who are about virtue, but the people who are leaders on the right, Donald Trump very leaders on the right, Donald Trump very leaders on the right, Donald Trump very much included, are not virtuous often. much included, are not virtuous often. much included, are not virtuous often. And if they have enough power, that is And if they have enough power, that is And if they have enough power, that is looked past. If they have enough looked past. If they have enough looked past. If they have enough strength to their passions, that is strength to their passions, that is strength to their passions, that is fine. Um and similarly in theformational fine. Um and similarly in theformational fine. Um and similarly in theformational sphere in the attentional sphere sphere in the attentional sphere sphere in the attentional sphere there is a lot of playing with stories there is a lot of playing with stories there is a lot of playing with stories that are that are that are designed like mimemetically constructed designed like mimemetically constructed designed like mimemetically constructed to arouse very very very base passions. to arouse very very very base passions. to arouse very very very base passions. Those stories are often much more Those stories are often much more Those stories are often much more complicated if they're true beneath complicated if they're true beneath complicated if they're true beneath them. Um and there's a a view that that them. Um and there's a a view that that them. Um and there's a a view that that can be channeled in the right direction.

can be channeled in the right direction. can be channeled in the right direction. And I think the opposite is happening And I think the opposite is happening And I think the opposite is happening that in fact the people who are that in fact the people who are that in fact the people who are restrained are really losing out in the restrained are really losing out in the restrained are really losing out in the right attentional sphere because it's right attentional sphere because it's right attentional sphere because it's this constant you like you can't get this constant you like you can't get this constant you like you can't get heard if you're not now playing this heard if you're not now playing this heard if you're not now playing this game of game of game of incredibly incredibly incredibly weaponized like explosive allegations weaponized like explosive allegations weaponized like explosive allegations which of course is going where that which of course is going where that which of course is going where that ultimately always goes which is toward ultimately always goes which is toward ultimately always goes which is toward towards anti-semitic conspiracy theories towards anti-semitic conspiracy theories towards anti-semitic conspiracy theories like the the oldest intentional move in like the the oldest intentional move in like the the oldest intentional move in the book. the book. the book. >> You're you're you're you're raising I >> You're you're you're you're raising I >> You're you're you're you're raising I think a really important uh think a really important uh think a really important uh philosophical question and the philosophical question and the philosophical question and the conservative tradition offers a lot of conservative tradition offers a lot of conservative tradition offers a lot of good debate discourse uh on this good debate discourse uh on this good debate discourse uh on this question. The question is this you have question. The question is this you have question. The question is this you have what we might say arisatilian virtue or what we might say arisatilian virtue or what we might say arisatilian virtue or Christian virtue and then Mcavelian vu Christian virtue and then Mcavelian vu Christian virtue and then Mcavelian vu which is a totally it's the same word which is a totally it's the same word which is a totally it's the same word but a totally different conception. And but a totally different conception. And but a totally different conception. And for Machaveli, virtue, the political for Machaveli, virtue, the political for Machaveli, virtue, the political virtue was uh the the virtue of how to virtue was uh the the virtue of how to virtue was uh the the virtue of how to win power, how to maintain stability, win power, how to maintain stability, win power, how to maintain stability, and in his his book on republics, how to and in his his book on republics, how to and in his his book on republics, how to have a flourishing republic, which often have a flourishing republic, which often have a flourishing republic, which often requires um cunning, ambition, design.

requires um cunning, ambition, design. requires um cunning, ambition, design. Um and so politics is always a Um and so politics is always a Um and so politics is always a conversation between virtue and vu. And conversation between virtue and vu. And conversation between virtue and vu. And you're you're essentially reconciling uh you're you're essentially reconciling uh you're you're essentially reconciling uh means and ends. And there are people who means and ends. And there are people who means and ends. And there are people who will argue, academics in particular, will argue, academics in particular, will argue, academics in particular, even those on the right, well, we need even those on the right, well, we need even those on the right, well, we need to have deonttological principles that to have deonttological principles that to have deonttological principles that you can make, you know, no that the you can make, you know, no that the you can make, you know, no that the ends, the means always have to be 100% ends, the means always have to be 100% ends, the means always have to be 100% pure towards 100% pure ends. Um, and and pure towards 100% pure ends. Um, and and pure towards 100% pure ends. Um, and and I I I laugh. It's like, well, only an I I I laugh. It's like, well, only an I I I laugh. It's like, well, only an academic could could really uh, you academic could could really uh, you academic could could really uh, you know, make such a make such a case know, make such a make such a case know, make such a make such a case because the reality is that in politics, because the reality is that in politics, because the reality is that in politics, it's an imperfect world and you're it's an imperfect world and you're it's an imperfect world and you're constantly balancing means and ends. constantly balancing means and ends. constantly balancing means and ends. You're constantly taking the measure of You're constantly taking the measure of You're constantly taking the measure of vu and virtue. And so you you you have vu and virtue. And so you you you have vu and virtue. And so you you you have to figure that out. You have to figure to figure that out. You have to figure to figure that out. You have to figure out where you're personally comfortable, out where you're personally comfortable, out where you're personally comfortable, where you personally can feel that your where you personally can feel that your where you personally can feel that your work is is justified. And then as a work is is justified. And then as a work is is justified. And then as a movement as a whole, this is a constant movement as a whole, this is a constant movement as a whole, this is a constant negotiation. And and look, in in my negotiation. And and look, in in my negotiation. And and look, in in my mind, um political leaders are not your mind, um political leaders are not your mind, um political leaders are not your friends. Um political leaders are not friends. Um political leaders are not friends. Um political leaders are not your your your your priest. Um, you your your your your priest. Um, you your your your your priest. Um, you know, political leaders are are kind of know, political leaders are are kind of know, political leaders are are kind of blunt instruments. Uh, political leaders blunt instruments. Uh, political leaders blunt instruments. Uh, political leaders are means to to an end. And there's no are means to to an end. And there's no are means to to an end. And there's no easy answer there. Uh, there's no easy answer there. Uh, there's no easy answer there. Uh, there's no immediate answer there. But but what I immediate answer there. But but what I immediate answer there. But but what I would say is that those are the people would say is that those are the people would say is that those are the people that are my compatriots, the people that that are my compatriots, the people that that are my compatriots, the people that I'm fighting every day alongside and I'm fighting every day alongside and I'm fighting every day alongside and along with um are high integrity people, along with um are high integrity people, along with um are high integrity people, very smart people, uh conservative

very smart people, uh conservative very smart people, uh conservative institutionalists who understand the institutionalists who understand the institutionalists who understand the moment, who understand that that we need moment, who understand that that we need moment, who understand that that we need to to kind of deliver tangible political to to kind of deliver tangible political to to kind of deliver tangible political victories. We can't retreat just to victories. We can't retreat just to victories. We can't retreat just to abstract speculation and and who you abstract speculation and and who you abstract speculation and and who you know look we're playing the game and in know look we're playing the game and in know look we're playing the game and in my view the game is simultaneously to my view the game is simultaneously to my view the game is simultaneously to improve our own capacities but also to improve our own capacities but also to improve our own capacities but also to to win in the arena and so I I I often to win in the arena and so I I I often to win in the arena and so I I I often times and and this this conversation is times and and this this conversation is times and and this this conversation is is interesting because is interesting because is interesting because you're often times you're moving forward you're often times you're moving forward you're often times you're moving forward all right what are we going to do how all right what are we going to do how all right what are we going to do how are we going to hit this where are we are we going to hit this where are we are we going to hit this where are we going to where are we going to push next going to where are we going to push next going to where are we going to push next what kind of what kind of victory is is what kind of what kind of victory is is what kind of what kind of victory is is is available is available is available Um, and you have to do that knowing that Um, and you have to do that knowing that Um, and you have to do that knowing that the the the system you're operating in the the the system you're operating in the the the system you're operating in is is littered with imperfections. Um, is is littered with imperfections. Um, is is littered with imperfections. Um, and again, at the end of the day, what I and again, at the end of the day, what I and again, at the end of the day, what I my calculation is I I'm I'm very mindful my calculation is I I'm I'm very mindful my calculation is I I'm I'm very mindful and even try to be some people wouldn't and even try to be some people wouldn't and even try to be some people wouldn't believe this, try to even be humble as believe this, try to even be humble as believe this, try to even be humble as to the the little part of the world that to the the little part of the world that to the the little part of the world that I can influence. And I think I've I can influence. And I think I've I can influence. And I think I've changed it for the better. Um, I think changed it for the better. Um, I think changed it for the better. Um, I think institutions that I'm working with are institutions that I'm working with are institutions that I'm working with are are improving over time and I think this are improving over time and I think this are improving over time and I think this epistemological question and the epistemological question and the epistemological question and the individual charismatic question are individual charismatic question are individual charismatic question are questions that can be and will be questions that can be and will be questions that can be and will be resolved in the say short to medium resolved in the say short to medium resolved in the say short to medium term.

term. term. >> I'll leave it there. I really appreciate >> I'll leave it there. I really appreciate >> I'll leave it there. I really appreciate you doing this conversation. Always our you doing this conversation. Always our you doing this conversation. Always our final question. What are a few books final question. What are a few books final question. What are a few books you'd recommend to the audience? you'd recommend to the audience? you'd recommend to the audience? >> Okay, so we're going to do three books >> Okay, so we're going to do three books >> Okay, so we're going to do three books uh from the Rufo's personal conservative uh from the Rufo's personal conservative uh from the Rufo's personal conservative cannon. The first I would recommend is a cannon. The first I would recommend is a cannon. The first I would recommend is a book by my mentor John Marini, Claremont book by my mentor John Marini, Claremont book by my mentor John Marini, Claremont Institute uh scholar uh called unmasking Institute uh scholar uh called unmasking Institute uh scholar uh called unmasking the administrative state which I think the administrative state which I think the administrative state which I think has helped me more than anything has helped me more than anything has helped me more than anything understand the deeper philosophical and understand the deeper philosophical and understand the deeper philosophical and political underpinnings of our modern political underpinnings of our modern political underpinnings of our modern dilemma. Uh, the second book that I dilemma. Uh, the second book that I dilemma. Uh, the second book that I think all conservatives should read and think all conservatives should read and think all conservatives should read and all liberals should read is a biography all liberals should read is a biography all liberals should read is a biography by Stacy Schiff called The by Stacy Schiff called The by Stacy Schiff called The Revolutionary, which is a biography of Revolutionary, which is a biography of Revolutionary, which is a biography of the American founder Samuel Adams. And the American founder Samuel Adams. And the American founder Samuel Adams. And Adams is the most political founder. Uh, Adams is the most political founder. Uh, Adams is the most political founder. Uh, I think he uh kind of kind of clarifies I think he uh kind of kind of clarifies I think he uh kind of kind of clarifies through example all the questions that through example all the questions that through example all the questions that we've been talking about about we've been talking about about we've been talking about about propaganda, about passion, about propaganda, about passion, about propaganda, about passion, about institutions, about political change. institutions, about political change. institutions, about political change. He's the kind of key and and the He's the kind of key and and the He's the kind of key and and the forgotten founder really. He's been forgotten founder really. He's been forgotten founder really. He's been downgraded for for centuries now, but I downgraded for for centuries now, but I downgraded for for centuries now, but I think he's actually the most important think he's actually the most important think he's actually the most important uh founder. And then um you know, third, uh founder. And then um you know, third, uh founder. And then um you know, third, I would recommend a number of books by I would recommend a number of books by I would recommend a number of books by the the kind of conservative the the kind of conservative the the kind of conservative journalist, former NYU professor James journalist, former NYU professor James journalist, former NYU professor James Burnham. Wrote a book called Managerial Burnham. Wrote a book called Managerial Burnham. Wrote a book called Managerial Revolution, another called the Revolution, another called the Revolution, another called the Machavelians, another called Suicide of Machavelians, another called Suicide of Machavelians, another called Suicide of the West. And for me, Burnham is someone the West. And for me, Burnham is someone the West. And for me, Burnham is someone who has the kind of sophisticated who has the kind of sophisticated who has the kind of sophisticated analysis that helps illuminate these analysis that helps illuminate these analysis that helps illuminate these questions. His his work is quite good

questions. His his work is quite good questions. His his work is quite good and might even be interesting for people and might even be interesting for people and might even be interesting for people who don't share, you know, my political. who don't share, you know, my political. who don't share, you know, my political. >> Which book of his would you start with? >> Which book of his would you start with? >> Which book of his would you start with? >> I would start with managerial revolution >> I would start with managerial revolution >> I would start with managerial revolution um again because it it just it kind of um again because it it just it kind of um again because it it just it kind of describe it's in in the 1940s. It's describe it's in in the 1940s. It's describe it's in in the 1940s. It's unbelievable. You read it now and um unbelievable. You read it now and um unbelievable. You read it now and um he's describing the world we live in. uh he's describing the world we live in. uh he's describing the world we live in. uh um but he's describing it from from a um but he's describing it from from a um but he's describing it from from a point of of kind of optimism, American point of of kind of optimism, American point of of kind of optimism, American optimism, but he already saw some of the optimism, but he already saw some of the optimism, but he already saw some of the problems that were starting to emerge. problems that were starting to emerge. problems that were starting to emerge. >> Chris Rufo, thank you very much. >> Chris Rufo, thank you very much. >> Chris Rufo, thank you very much. >> Thank you.