The A.I. Revolt Is Here | The Ezra Klein Show

What is big, ugly, and has united What is big, ugly, and has united Republicans and Democrats at a time when Republicans and Democrats at a time when Republicans and Democrats at a time when it has felt like nothing else could? AI it has felt like nothing else could? AI it has felt like nothing else could? AI data centers. Last August, a heat map data centers. Last August, a heat map data centers. Last August, a heat map news poll found that about 4 in 10 news poll found that about 4 in 10 news poll found that about 4 in 10 voters would oppose a data center being voters would oppose a data center being voters would oppose a data center being built where they live. By May of this built where they live. By May of this built where they live. By May of this year, opposition grew to 7 in 10. year, opposition grew to 7 in 10. year, opposition grew to 7 in 10. Florida Governor Ronda Santis, a Florida Governor Ronda Santis, a Florida Governor Ronda Santis, a Republican of course, has proposed a new Republican of course, has proposed a new Republican of course, has proposed a new citizens bill of rights for AI. The citizens bill of rights for AI. The citizens bill of rights for AI. The incentives [music] of big tech are not incentives [music] of big tech are not incentives [music] of big tech are not the same as what's in the interest of the same as what's in the interest of the same as what's in the interest of the people and the public. the people and the public. the people and the public. >> Senator Bernie Sanders called for a >> Senator Bernie Sanders called for a >> Senator Bernie Sanders called for a national data center moratorum. national data center moratorum. national data center moratorum. >> This moratorum will give democracy a >> This moratorum will give democracy a >> This moratorum will give democracy a [music] chance to catch up with the [music] chance to catch up with the [music] chance to catch up with the transformative changes that we are transformative changes that we are transformative changes that we are witnessing and make sure that the witnessing and make sure that the witnessing and make sure that the benefits of [music] these technologies benefits of [music] these technologies benefits of [music] these technologies work for all of us, not just the work for all of us, not just the work for all of us, not just the wealthiest [music] people on earth. wealthiest [music] people on earth. wealthiest [music] people on earth. There are over a hundred local or There are over a hundred local or There are over a hundred local or statewide moratorium proposals across statewide moratorium proposals across statewide moratorium proposals across the country. And here in New York, the country. And here in New York, the country. And here in New York, Governor Kathy Hokll, not usually Governor Kathy Hokll, not usually Governor Kathy Hokll, not usually thought of as a hardcore populist, just thought of as a hardcore populist, just thought of as a hardcore populist, just imposed a one-year moratorum on [music] imposed a one-year moratorum on [music] imposed a one-year moratorum on [music] data center construction.

data center construction. data center construction. >> These hypers scale AI data centers >> These hypers scale AI data centers >> These hypers scale AI data centers consume enormous amounts of power. Truly consume enormous amounts of power. Truly consume enormous amounts of power. Truly threatening to outpace our grid's threatening to outpace our grid's threatening to outpace our grid's capacity capacity capacity and they drive up costs for local and they drive up costs for local and they drive up costs for local rateayers. rateayers. rateayers. and I refuse to let those costs be and I refuse to let those costs be and I refuse to let those costs be passed on to New Yorkers who already pay passed on to New Yorkers who already pay passed on to New Yorkers who already pay too much for their utility bills. too much for their utility bills. too much for their utility bills. >> So, I wanted to get into the fight over >> So, I wanted to get into the fight over >> So, I wanted to get into the fight over data centers. How much of this is really data centers. How much of this is really data centers. How much of this is really about water or electricity or aesthetics about water or electricity or aesthetics about water or electricity or aesthetics and how much is about AI itself and the and how much is about AI itself and the and how much is about AI itself and the companies that are behind it? My guest companies that are behind it? My guest companies that are behind it? My guest today is Jasmine [music] Sun. Jasmine today is Jasmine [music] Sun. Jasmine today is Jasmine [music] Sun. Jasmine has been doing excellent coverage of has been doing excellent coverage of has been doing excellent coverage of both the culture inside the AI both the culture inside the AI both the culture inside the AI companies, [music] unusual culture, and companies, [music] unusual culture, and companies, [music] unusual culture, and the anger that is building against them the anger that is building against them the anger that is building against them in the rest of the country. I highly in the rest of the country. I highly in the rest of the country. I highly recommend following her Substack, but recommend following her Substack, but recommend following her Substack, but right now she just finished a reporting right now she just finished a reporting right now she just finished a reporting trip in the Midwest talking to the trip in the Midwest talking to the trip in the Midwest talking to the people organizing against these data people organizing against these data people organizing against these data centers and I wanted to hear what she'd centers and I wanted to hear what she'd centers and I wanted to hear what she'd learned.

>> Jasmine Sun, welcome to the show. >> Jasmine Sun, welcome to the show. >> I'm so excited to be here. So, you just >> I'm so excited to be here. So, you just >> I'm so excited to be here. So, you just got back from a reporting trip in got back from a reporting trip in got back from a reporting trip in Wisconsin and Michigan covering the Wisconsin and Michigan covering the Wisconsin and Michigan covering the fight over data centers. Let's just fight over data centers. Let's just fight over data centers. Let's just start with what you see when you're near start with what you see when you're near start with what you see when you're near a data center. What does it look like? a data center. What does it look like? a data center. What does it look like? >> I think one of the most important things >> I think one of the most important things >> I think one of the most important things about rural Wisconsin and rural Michigan about rural Wisconsin and rural Michigan about rural Wisconsin and rural Michigan is how beautiful it is. Um, I felt like is how beautiful it is. Um, I felt like is how beautiful it is. Um, I felt like I was in Eden. I felt like I was in I was in Eden. I felt like I was in I was in Eden. I felt like I was in paradise. It's incredibly lush, paradise. It's incredibly lush, paradise. It's incredibly lush, incredibly green. And as you get closer incredibly green. And as you get closer incredibly green. And as you get closer to a data center, you start to see more to a data center, you start to see more to a data center, you start to see more power lines. You start to see more power lines. You start to see more power lines. You start to see more towers. And eventually you just see what towers. And eventually you just see what towers. And eventually you just see what looks like an extremely looks like an extremely looks like an extremely large flat warehouse, but you just see large flat warehouse, but you just see large flat warehouse, but you just see this sort of like verdant landscape give this sort of like verdant landscape give this sort of like verdant landscape give way to what is a windowless industrial way to what is a windowless industrial way to what is a windowless industrial park. Data centers are very ugly. Um, I park. Data centers are very ugly. Um, I park. Data centers are very ugly. Um, I think I didn't appreciate this until I think I didn't appreciate this until I think I didn't appreciate this until I started standing in front of them, started standing in front of them, started standing in front of them, getting near them, listening to them. getting near them, listening to them. getting near them, listening to them. People will time how long it takes to People will time how long it takes to People will time how long it takes to drive past a data center on the highway drive past a data center on the highway drive past a data center on the highway going 70 miles per hour in Port going 70 miles per hour in Port going 70 miles per hour in Port Washington. I think it's like a minute Washington. I think it's like a minute Washington. I think it's like a minute and 42 seconds. The size of these and 42 seconds. The size of these and 42 seconds. The size of these things, things, things, >> that's a long on a highway.

>> that's a long on a highway. >> that's a long on a highway. >> It is a long, long ride. Like these >> It is a long, long ride. Like these >> It is a long, long ride. Like these hypers scale data centers are huge. They hypers scale data centers are huge. They hypers scale data centers are huge. They are massive. And so I think that the are massive. And so I think that the are massive. And so I think that the aesthetic questions right around is this aesthetic questions right around is this aesthetic questions right around is this what I want my state, my community to what I want my state, my community to what I want my state, my community to look like, these are really salient to look like, these are really salient to look like, these are really salient to people. You mentioned hearing them. Yes. people. You mentioned hearing them. Yes. people. You mentioned hearing them. Yes. What do they sound like? What do they sound like? What do they sound like? >> Oh my gosh. I mean, they sound like >> Oh my gosh. I mean, they sound like >> Oh my gosh. I mean, they sound like humming, buzzing, warring. Every once in humming, buzzing, warring. Every once in humming, buzzing, warring. Every once in a while, you'll hear a rattling. a while, you'll hear a rattling. a while, you'll hear a rattling. >> Residents who live next door to some of >> Residents who live next door to some of >> Residents who live next door to some of them say they're producing noise that's them say they're producing noise that's them say they're producing noise that's not only annoying, but debilitating, not only annoying, but debilitating, not only annoying, but debilitating, like this right here. >> But again, they're windowless. There are >> But again, they're windowless. There are not that many workers inside. Um, so not that many workers inside. Um, so not that many workers inside. Um, so they're very mechanical sounds. They are they're very mechanical sounds. They are they're very mechanical sounds. They are inhuman as a lot of folks would say. inhuman as a lot of folks would say. inhuman as a lot of folks would say. >> So you spent a lot of time with people >> So you spent a lot of time with people >> So you spent a lot of time with people organizing against data centers. Uh who organizing against data centers. Uh who organizing against data centers. Uh who were they? were they? were they? >> Um you had stay-at-home moms, you had >> Um you had stay-at-home moms, you had >> Um you had stay-at-home moms, you had retired executives, you had um farmers retired executives, you had um farmers retired executives, you had um farmers who didn't like the impacts on their who didn't like the impacts on their who didn't like the impacts on their land. Uh you had activists, professional land. Uh you had activists, professional land. Uh you had activists, professional activists with environmental groups in activists with environmental groups in activists with environmental groups in the state. Um, it was an interesting mix the state. Um, it was an interesting mix the state. Um, it was an interesting mix of people, but a lot of women relatively of people, but a lot of women relatively of people, but a lot of women relatively more left-leaning, though definitely more left-leaning, though definitely more left-leaning, though definitely some right-leaning folks as well.

some right-leaning folks as well. some right-leaning folks as well. >> So, one question I've heard people ask >> So, one question I've heard people ask >> So, one question I've heard people ask is, how much is this different than is, how much is this different than is, how much is this different than other kinds of industrial installations? other kinds of industrial installations? other kinds of industrial installations? I mean, there are a lot of things that I mean, there are a lot of things that I mean, there are a lot of things that are built all over the country that you are built all over the country that you are built all over the country that you wouldn't necessarily want to be right wouldn't necessarily want to be right wouldn't necessarily want to be right next to. Are data centers unusual in next to. Are data centers unusual in next to. Are data centers unusual in this or are they, you know, from this or are they, you know, from this or are they, you know, from fracking to industrial agriculture just fracking to industrial agriculture just fracking to industrial agriculture just like the latest version of it? like the latest version of it? like the latest version of it? >> It's a good question. It's one I had and >> It's a good question. It's one I had and >> It's a good question. It's one I had and thought a lot about before I went. Um, thought a lot about before I went. Um, thought a lot about before I went. Um, and I've talked to city officials who and I've talked to city officials who and I've talked to city officials who are confused by this question of we had are confused by this question of we had are confused by this question of we had a chip fab here, we had an auto plant a chip fab here, we had an auto plant a chip fab here, we had an auto plant here, we had a fulfillment center here, here, we had a fulfillment center here, here, we had a fulfillment center here, and nobody cared as much. Why are data and nobody cared as much. Why are data and nobody cared as much. Why are data centers so much more unpopular than say centers so much more unpopular than say centers so much more unpopular than say solar farms which also faced local solar farms which also faced local solar farms which also faced local opposition in places like Michigan? And opposition in places like Michigan? And opposition in places like Michigan? And so I think while the quality of life so I think while the quality of life so I think while the quality of life concerns around this thing is loud and concerns around this thing is loud and concerns around this thing is loud and annoying and ugly and consumes resources annoying and ugly and consumes resources annoying and ugly and consumes resources are very similar to other industrial are very similar to other industrial are very similar to other industrial projects um there must be some reason projects um there must be some reason projects um there must be some reason that opposition is so much more severe that opposition is so much more severe that opposition is so much more severe and widespread even beyond the and widespread even beyond the and widespread even beyond the communities where the data centers are communities where the data centers are communities where the data centers are literally being built. And I think that literally being built. And I think that literally being built. And I think that question has a lot to do with the AI question has a lot to do with the AI question has a lot to do with the AI with the AI industry and sort of the way with the AI industry and sort of the way with the AI industry and sort of the way that people feel about these companies that people feel about these companies that people feel about these companies and these projects.

and these projects. and these projects. >> When I read your reporting on this, when >> When I read your reporting on this, when >> When I read your reporting on this, when I've talked to people involved in this, I've talked to people involved in this, I've talked to people involved in this, it always feels to me there are sort of it always feels to me there are sort of it always feels to me there are sort of three layers of concerns that are three layers of concerns that are three layers of concerns that are converging converging converging >> into what we call the data center >> into what we call the data center >> into what we call the data center backlash. There's process, backlash. There's process, backlash. There's process, >> then there's direct impacts, >> then there's direct impacts, >> then there's direct impacts, you know, the environment, water, you know, the environment, water, you know, the environment, water, electricity, electricity, electricity, >> and then there's AI itself. And maybe >> and then there's AI itself. And maybe >> and then there's AI itself. And maybe let's go through them sort of one by let's go through them sort of one by let's go through them sort of one by one. One thing that I have been hearing one. One thing that I have been hearing one. One thing that I have been hearing a lot of and and I've seen in your a lot of and and I've seen in your a lot of and and I've seen in your reporting as well reporting as well reporting as well >> is the anger over how these processes >> is the anger over how these processes >> is the anger over how these processes are going and in particular the use of are going and in particular the use of are going and in particular the use of NDAs which is not that common. Right. NDAs which is not that common. Right. NDAs which is not that common. Right. I've covered a lot of I've covered a lot of I've covered a lot of >> what does it take to build a housing >> what does it take to build a housing >> what does it take to build a housing development and you don't tend to hear a development and you don't tend to hear a development and you don't tend to hear a lot of the city councilmen got put under lot of the city councilmen got put under lot of the city councilmen got put under an NDA, an NDA, an NDA, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So what is happening with these NDAs? >> So what is happening with these NDAs? >> So what is happening with these NDAs? Yeah, I mean this is also something that Yeah, I mean this is also something that Yeah, I mean this is also something that really surprised me and um I think the really surprised me and um I think the really surprised me and um I think the NDAs that I NDAs that I NDAs that I >> should say non-disclosure agreements, >> should say non-disclosure agreements, >> should say non-disclosure agreements, >> right? The non-disclosure agreements, >> right? The non-disclosure agreements, >> right? The non-disclosure agreements, this has really inflamed the amount of this has really inflamed the amount of this has really inflamed the amount of local opposition that you see. And so local opposition that you see. And so local opposition that you see. And so basically what would happen oftentimes basically what would happen oftentimes basically what would happen oftentimes is there would be some sense starting in is there would be some sense starting in is there would be some sense starting in city council that maybe a big city council that maybe a big city council that maybe a big development project was going to show up development project was going to show up development project was going to show up but because of the NDAs the council but because of the NDAs the council but because of the NDAs the council members would not be able to disclose um members would not be able to disclose um members would not be able to disclose um that necessarily it was a data center that necessarily it was a data center that necessarily it was a data center necessarily who the customers were going necessarily who the customers were going necessarily who the customers were going to be a company like OpenAI or a company to be a company like OpenAI or a company to be a company like OpenAI or a company like Anthropic or whoever um or even the like Anthropic or whoever um or even the like Anthropic or whoever um or even the size of the project like how much size of the project like how much size of the project like how much electricity is this actually going to electricity is this actually going to electricity is this actually going to consume but whispers would start to get consume but whispers would start to get consume but whispers would start to get around. I was talking to um a VP of a around. I was talking to um a VP of a around. I was talking to um a VP of a construction union and he was saying,

construction union and he was saying, construction union and he was saying, you know, there's an old Irish saying you know, there's an old Irish saying you know, there's an old Irish saying that the only way to keep a secret that the only way to keep a secret that the only way to keep a secret between three people is to kill two of between three people is to kill two of between three people is to kill two of them, which I thought was hilarious. And them, which I thought was hilarious. And them, which I thought was hilarious. And so he's saying when these developers so he's saying when these developers so he's saying when these developers show up, they talk to the general show up, they talk to the general show up, they talk to the general contractor. The general contractor talks contractor. The general contractor talks contractor. The general contractor talks to all their subcontractors, the to all their subcontractors, the to all their subcontractors, the subcontractors talk to all their subcontractors talk to all their subcontractors talk to all their workers. Yes, maybe everyone is signing workers. Yes, maybe everyone is signing workers. Yes, maybe everyone is signing NDAs at every part of that process, but NDAs at every part of that process, but NDAs at every part of that process, but whispers get around. And as soon as whispers get around. And as soon as whispers get around. And as soon as whisperers get around, you start to get whisperers get around, you start to get whisperers get around, you start to get social media posts. You start to get social media posts. You start to get social media posts. You start to get rumors and the city council because they rumors and the city council because they rumors and the city council because they are beholden to these NDAs, they lose are beholden to these NDAs, they lose are beholden to these NDAs, they lose the ability to get ahead of the social the ability to get ahead of the social the ability to get ahead of the social media narrative. That was something I media narrative. That was something I media narrative. That was something I repeatedly heard from these local repeatedly heard from these local repeatedly heard from these local government officials was we could not government officials was we could not government officials was we could not get ahead of social media because we had get ahead of social media because we had get ahead of social media because we had signed an NDA and rumors started getting signed an NDA and rumors started getting signed an NDA and rumors started getting around. around. around. >> But why do the companies want these NDAs >> But why do the companies want these NDAs >> But why do the companies want these NDAs signed? signed? signed? >> I mean, I think they didn't think about >> I mean, I think they didn't think about >> I mean, I think they didn't think about it. They didn't realize there would be a it. They didn't realize there would be a it. They didn't realize there would be a backlash. They just thought it would be backlash. They just thought it would be backlash. They just thought it would be easier in case they change their mind. easier in case they change their mind. easier in case they change their mind. These companies sign lots of NDAs with These companies sign lots of NDAs with These companies sign lots of NDAs with their own workers, with anyone who works their own workers, with anyone who works their own workers, with anyone who works with them. I don't think there's a good with them. I don't think there's a good with them. I don't think there's a good reason. Microsoft has actually decided reason. Microsoft has actually decided reason. Microsoft has actually decided to stop using NDAs because of the level to stop using NDAs because of the level to stop using NDAs because of the level of backlash. I've heard from uh people of backlash. I've heard from uh people of backlash. I've heard from uh people managing compute at some of the other AI managing compute at some of the other AI managing compute at some of the other AI labs that they are thinking of making labs that they are thinking of making labs that they are thinking of making the same decision. One thing that the same decision. One thing that the same decision. One thing that surprised me is all of the pro data surprised me is all of the pro data surprised me is all of the pro data center, probuild people who I spoke to, center, probuild people who I spoke to, center, probuild people who I spoke to, whether workers or AI developers, they whether workers or AI developers, they whether workers or AI developers, they all regret the NDAs. They all think that all regret the NDAs. They all think that all regret the NDAs. They all think that they made the situation much worse.

they made the situation much worse. they made the situation much worse. >> What is the impact of a new data center >> What is the impact of a new data center >> What is the impact of a new data center on water usage, water availability in a on water usage, water availability in a on water usage, water availability in a town? town? town? >> They do require some of it obviously >> They do require some of it obviously >> They do require some of it obviously primarily for cooling the data centers primarily for cooling the data centers primarily for cooling the data centers because these chips and servers run because these chips and servers run because these chips and servers run really hot and they need AC. Um the really hot and they need AC. Um the really hot and they need AC. Um the thing that's gone a bit wrong in the thing that's gone a bit wrong in the thing that's gone a bit wrong in the water debate I think is that today's new water debate I think is that today's new water debate I think is that today's new data centers are almost all closed loop data centers are almost all closed loop data centers are almost all closed loop systems. closed loop in the same way systems. closed loop in the same way systems. closed loop in the same way that air conditioning is closed loop that air conditioning is closed loop that air conditioning is closed loop which means they're recycling the water which means they're recycling the water which means they're recycling the water within the system and they use a within the system and they use a within the system and they use a fraction of the water that you know golf fraction of the water that you know golf fraction of the water that you know golf courses use and in fact in places like courses use and in fact in places like courses use and in fact in places like Jainsville Wisconsin we would often see Jainsville Wisconsin we would often see Jainsville Wisconsin we would often see a literal golf course right next to the a literal golf course right next to the a literal golf course right next to the data center site but they do use some data center site but they do use some data center site but they do use some and it has sort of become uh a very and it has sort of become uh a very and it has sort of become uh a very sticky icon of like these things sticky icon of like these things sticky icon of like these things resource consumption a lot of folks I resource consumption a lot of folks I resource consumption a lot of folks I talked to in Wisconsin and Michigan they talked to in Wisconsin and Michigan they talked to in Wisconsin and Michigan they would say things like you know they're would say things like you know they're would say things like you know they're building right by the great lakes why building right by the great lakes why building right by the great lakes why would they do that if they weren't would they do that if they weren't would they do that if they weren't trying to drain the lakes Why would they trying to drain the lakes Why would they trying to drain the lakes Why would they do that if they didn't need all this do that if they didn't need all this do that if they didn't need all this fresh water? fresh water? fresh water? >> And so your your view is at this point >> And so your your view is at this point >> And so your your view is at this point the technology has changed such that the technology has changed such that the technology has changed such that water is not as big of a deal as maybe water is not as big of a deal as maybe water is not as big of a deal as maybe it actually was a couple of years ago.

it actually was a couple of years ago. it actually was a couple of years ago. >> I think the next thing people have heard >> I think the next thing people have heard >> I think the next thing people have heard a lot about is energy usage. a lot about is energy usage. a lot about is energy usage. >> So walk me through that. >> So walk me through that. >> So walk me through that. >> Uh the electricity consumption issue is >> Uh the electricity consumption issue is >> Uh the electricity consumption issue is real. So um data centers do in fact use real. So um data centers do in fact use real. So um data centers do in fact use an incredible amount of electricity. Um an incredible amount of electricity. Um an incredible amount of electricity. Um these uh these chips and these servers these uh these chips and these servers these uh these chips and these servers that are processing gigantic that are processing gigantic that are processing gigantic mathematical calculations to make AI mathematical calculations to make AI mathematical calculations to make AI work require tons of energy. All these work require tons of energy. All these work require tons of energy. All these chips and clusters are talking to each chips and clusters are talking to each chips and clusters are talking to each other. You need the interconnections to other. You need the interconnections to other. You need the interconnections to be really fast in order to get like a be really fast in order to get like a be really fast in order to get like a chatbt answer really quickly with low chatbt answer really quickly with low chatbt answer really quickly with low latency. You need these super fast latency. You need these super fast latency. You need these super fast connections. All of that's powered by connections. All of that's powered by connections. All of that's powered by electricity. So we are talking about a electricity. So we are talking about a electricity. So we are talking about a really really significant amount of new really really significant amount of new really really significant amount of new electricity that is going to require new electricity that is going to require new electricity that is going to require new generators, new power plants. It's generators, new power plants. It's generators, new power plants. It's probably going to be natural gas in the probably going to be natural gas in the probably going to be natural gas in the near future. Once the data center is near future. Once the data center is near future. Once the data center is fully operational, there is not a ton of fully operational, there is not a ton of fully operational, there is not a ton of air and water pollution, assuming that air and water pollution, assuming that air and water pollution, assuming that everything's working correctly. They are everything's working correctly. They are everything's working correctly. They are relatively clean facilities, but you relatively clean facilities, but you relatively clean facilities, but you know, like a lot of folks are concerned know, like a lot of folks are concerned know, like a lot of folks are concerned about the electricity use. They're about the electricity use. They're about the electricity use. They're saying, "Yeah, maybe the data center saying, "Yeah, maybe the data center saying, "Yeah, maybe the data center doesn't use that much water. Maybe the doesn't use that much water. Maybe the doesn't use that much water. Maybe the data center doesn't pollute that much, data center doesn't pollute that much, data center doesn't pollute that much, but what about all of these, you know, but what about all of these, you know, but what about all of these, you know, new power plants that they're going to new power plants that they're going to new power plants that they're going to build in order to power it?" When the build in order to power it?" When the build in order to power it?" When the tech companies come into these towns and tech companies come into these towns and tech companies come into these towns and begin talking to the city council begin talking to the city council begin talking to the city council members, when they begin talking to the members, when they begin talking to the members, when they begin talking to the community, what are they sort of community, what are they sort of community, what are they sort of promising on the one hand, right? This promising on the one hand, right? This promising on the one hand, right? This this is why this will be good for you.

this is why this will be good for you. this is why this will be good for you. And what are they asking for on the And what are they asking for on the And what are they asking for on the other? other? other? >> Yeah. I mean, so these things do provide >> Yeah. I mean, so these things do provide >> Yeah. I mean, so these things do provide an incredible amount of tax revenue, an incredible amount of tax revenue, an incredible amount of tax revenue, right? And so, um, in Mount Pleasant, right? And so, um, in Mount Pleasant, right? And so, um, in Mount Pleasant, the on the old Foxcon site, which ended the on the old Foxcon site, which ended the on the old Foxcon site, which ended up being bought out by Microsoft, they up being bought out by Microsoft, they up being bought out by Microsoft, they saw, oh, there's all this infrastructure saw, oh, there's all this infrastructure saw, oh, there's all this infrastructure already here. Why don't we build a already here. Why don't we build a already here. Why don't we build a hypers scale data center on this unused hypers scale data center on this unused hypers scale data center on this unused industrially zoned land? Uh Microsoft is industrially zoned land? Uh Microsoft is industrially zoned land? Uh Microsoft is on track to pay $19.6 million in on track to pay $19.6 million in on track to pay $19.6 million in property taxes in 2026. This is expected property taxes in 2026. This is expected property taxes in 2026. This is expected to continue for many years. Again, this to continue for many years. Again, this to continue for many years. Again, this is a small village of 28,000 people. Um, is a small village of 28,000 people. Um, is a small village of 28,000 people. Um, and so there are really meaningful and so there are really meaningful and so there are really meaningful property tax benefits. And I do think it property tax benefits. And I do think it property tax benefits. And I do think it I find it frustrating personally when I find it frustrating personally when I find it frustrating personally when anti-data center organizers say that the anti-data center organizers say that the anti-data center organizers say that the job creation is a myth because I think job creation is a myth because I think job creation is a myth because I think that 500, you know, maybe six figure that 500, you know, maybe six figure that 500, you know, maybe six figure jobs for folks who go through jobs for folks who go through jobs for folks who go through apprenticeships, but maybe don't need apprenticeships, but maybe don't need apprenticeships, but maybe don't need college degrees that last two to six college degrees that last two to six college degrees that last two to six years. That's enough time to build a years. That's enough time to build a years. That's enough time to build a family. That's enough time to buy a family. That's enough time to buy a family. That's enough time to buy a home. I think it's super meaningful. And home. I think it's super meaningful. And home. I think it's super meaningful. And when I talk to technicians, when I talk when I talk to technicians, when I talk when I talk to technicians, when I talk to workers, clearly it was extremely to workers, clearly it was extremely to workers, clearly it was extremely meaningful work. Um, I think what one of meaningful work. Um, I think what one of meaningful work. Um, I think what one of the things that was the most surprising the things that was the most surprising the things that was the most surprising to me when I talked to data center to me when I talked to data center to me when I talked to data center activists was that they they responded activists was that they they responded activists was that they they responded to so many of the proarguments with I to so many of the proarguments with I to so many of the proarguments with I don't believe them. So like this company don't believe them. So like this company don't believe them. So like this company says that they are going to treat the says that they are going to treat the says that they are going to treat the water with chemicals in it so that it water with chemicals in it so that it water with chemicals in it so that it doesn't flow into the lakes. People doesn't flow into the lakes. People doesn't flow into the lakes. People would say I don't believe them. I don't would say I don't believe them. I don't would say I don't believe them. I don't think they can do it. people would say think they can do it. people would say think they can do it. people would say uh the companies would say we are going uh the companies would say we are going uh the companies would say we are going to cover uh the cost of our own to cover uh the cost of our own to cover uh the cost of our own electricity grid buildout. We are going

electricity grid buildout. We are going electricity grid buildout. We are going to ensure that rates do not go up for to ensure that rates do not go up for to ensure that rates do not go up for all Michiganders. Um a lot of folks all Michiganders. Um a lot of folks all Michiganders. Um a lot of folks would say I don't believe them. DTE has would say I don't believe them. DTE has would say I don't believe them. DTE has raised our electricity rates basically raised our electricity rates basically raised our electricity rates basically every year since 2022. Why would this be every year since 2022. Why would this be every year since 2022. Why would this be the year that they decide not to do it? the year that they decide not to do it? the year that they decide not to do it? I do not believe them. They are going I do not believe them. They are going I do not believe them. They are going the we are going to create 500 jobs and the we are going to create 500 jobs and the we are going to create 500 jobs and some of these will stick around after some of these will stick around after some of these will stick around after the data center is built. people just the data center is built. people just the data center is built. people just said I don't believe them. It was really said I don't believe them. It was really said I don't believe them. It was really clear to me that data centers are clear to me that data centers are clear to me that data centers are showing up in an environment of showing up in an environment of showing up in an environment of extremely low trust in both governments extremely low trust in both governments extremely low trust in both governments and in corporations to the extent where and in corporations to the extent where and in corporations to the extent where the proarguments almost do not land the proarguments almost do not land the proarguments almost do not land because people just aren't interested in because people just aren't interested in because people just aren't interested in anything an outside tech company is anything an outside tech company is anything an outside tech company is going to tell them. They say they have going to tell them. They say they have going to tell them. They say they have big PR teams. They can say whatever they big PR teams. They can say whatever they big PR teams. They can say whatever they want. One thing that became really want. One thing that became really want. One thing that became really obvious to me when I talked to both obvious to me when I talked to both obvious to me when I talked to both people at the AI companies and local people at the AI companies and local people at the AI companies and local officials is that two years ago, no one officials is that two years ago, no one officials is that two years ago, no one thought that data center backlash was thought that data center backlash was thought that data center backlash was going to be like this. And so these going to be like this. And so these going to be like this. And so these companies were in fact looking for companies were in fact looking for companies were in fact looking for things like um does this state have a things like um does this state have a things like um does this state have a sales tax exemption as Wisconsin does to sales tax exemption as Wisconsin does to sales tax exemption as Wisconsin does to ensure that they don't have to pay sales ensure that they don't have to pay sales ensure that they don't have to pay sales taxes on their very expensive chips on taxes on their very expensive chips on taxes on their very expensive chips on their very expensive GPUs. Um they were their very expensive GPUs. Um they were their very expensive GPUs. Um they were often looking to build in places that often looking to build in places that often looking to build in places that might even offer local subsidies to the might even offer local subsidies to the might even offer local subsidies to the companies for building in that area. I companies for building in that area. I companies for building in that area. I think that a lot of the balance of power think that a lot of the balance of power think that a lot of the balance of power has shifted as local opposition has has shifted as local opposition has has shifted as local opposition has ramped up. Um, now it's the case that ramped up. Um, now it's the case that ramped up. Um, now it's the case that I'm hearing from some local officials if I'm hearing from some local officials if I'm hearing from some local officials if we did this again today, we wouldn't we did this again today, we wouldn't we did this again today, we wouldn't have to offer any subsidies because in have to offer any subsidies because in have to offer any subsidies because in fact now there is so much local fact now there is so much local fact now there is so much local opposition that the developers are opposition that the developers are opposition that the developers are really looking where is there going to

really looking where is there going to really looking where is there going to be a comm a local community and a be a comm a local community and a be a comm a local community and a government that is friendly to our government that is friendly to our government that is friendly to our project. How can we, you know, have a project. How can we, you know, have a project. How can we, you know, have a Christmas tree ornaments worth of Christmas tree ornaments worth of Christmas tree ornaments worth of community benefits agreements? And so community benefits agreements? And so community benefits agreements? And so just the nature of these deals and how just the nature of these deals and how just the nature of these deals and how much they are skewed towards communities much they are skewed towards communities much they are skewed towards communities versus the AI developers has really versus the AI developers has really versus the AI developers has really changed. One of the things that came up changed. One of the things that came up changed. One of the things that came up a lot in your reporting and that I a lot in your reporting and that I a lot in your reporting and that I thought was interesting was the fear thought was interesting was the fear thought was interesting was the fear that this is a bubble that this is a bubble that this is a bubble >> for sure. >> for sure. >> for sure. >> And what's going to happen is your >> And what's going to happen is your >> And what's going to happen is your community will agree to something and community will agree to something and community will agree to something and then in the middle the bubble is going then in the middle the bubble is going then in the middle the bubble is going to pop and you're going to end up with a to pop and you're going to end up with a to pop and you're going to end up with a halffinish data center or one that is halffinish data center or one that is halffinish data center or one that is not being kept up correctly or something not being kept up correctly or something not being kept up correctly or something where the where the where the >> you know promised benefits don't emerge. >> you know promised benefits don't emerge. >> you know promised benefits don't emerge. I mean you were in Wisconsin which had a I mean you were in Wisconsin which had a I mean you were in Wisconsin which had a very very bad experience with Foxcon very very bad experience with Foxcon very very bad experience with Foxcon which seems to be structuring the way which seems to be structuring the way which seems to be structuring the way people are thinking about at least some people are thinking about at least some people are thinking about at least some of this. of this. of this. >> So talk to me a bit about that uh set of >> So talk to me a bit about that uh set of >> So talk to me a bit about that uh set of concerns. concerns. concerns. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I think in terms of >> Absolutely. Yeah. I think in terms of >> Absolutely. Yeah. I think in terms of what people in these communities with what people in these communities with what people in these communities with these data centers feel when they see these data centers feel when they see these data centers feel when they see the projects come in with their gigantic the projects come in with their gigantic the projects come in with their gigantic like $2 billion of investment like these like $2 billion of investment like these like $2 billion of investment like these gigantic numbers that are being dangled.

gigantic numbers that are being dangled. gigantic numbers that are being dangled. It feels like a bubble to them. One, It feels like a bubble to them. One, It feels like a bubble to them. One, they're seeing news articles saying they're seeing news articles saying they're seeing news articles saying maybe a AI is a bubble. We don't know maybe a AI is a bubble. We don't know maybe a AI is a bubble. We don't know it's a bubble, but it could be. Two, you it's a bubble, but it could be. Two, you it's a bubble, but it could be. Two, you do have exper experiences like Fox Con do have exper experiences like Fox Con do have exper experiences like Fox Con where you have an big tech company show where you have an big tech company show where you have an big tech company show up in a very small community, in this up in a very small community, in this up in a very small community, in this case, Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin, a city case, Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin, a city case, Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin, a city of like 28,000 people. It's not very of like 28,000 people. It's not very of like 28,000 people. It's not very big. Get, you know, hundreds of millions big. Get, you know, hundreds of millions big. Get, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure investment of dollars in infrastructure investment of dollars in infrastructure investment and tax subsidy from the from the town. and tax subsidy from the from the town. and tax subsidy from the from the town. Promise 13,000 highpaying manufacturing Promise 13,000 highpaying manufacturing Promise 13,000 highpaying manufacturing jobs and then pull out because the jobs and then pull out because the jobs and then pull out because the contract wasn't set up correctly. they contract wasn't set up correctly. they contract wasn't set up correctly. they decided they didn't actually want to decided they didn't actually want to decided they didn't actually want to build a bunch of flat screen TVs in build a bunch of flat screen TVs in build a bunch of flat screen TVs in Wisconsin and the you know the town is Wisconsin and the you know the town is Wisconsin and the you know the town is left on the hook having invested all of left on the hook having invested all of left on the hook having invested all of this money in the grid and in roads they this money in the grid and in roads they this money in the grid and in roads they got I think a thousand jobs in the end got I think a thousand jobs in the end got I think a thousand jobs in the end Foxcon is still paying back all of this Foxcon is still paying back all of this Foxcon is still paying back all of this debt that has been accumulated and so debt that has been accumulated and so debt that has been accumulated and so experiences like that have really really experiences like that have really really experiences like that have really really soured people on the question of when an soured people on the question of when an soured people on the question of when an outside big tech company comes in and outside big tech company comes in and outside big tech company comes in and you know promises these gigantic numbers you know promises these gigantic numbers you know promises these gigantic numbers and all of these jobs and all this tax and all of these jobs and all this tax and all of these jobs and all this tax revenue and it's for this technology revenue and it's for this technology revenue and it's for this technology that like you can't a lot of people they that like you can't a lot of people they that like you can't a lot of people they don't see, they don't feel, they don't don't see, they don't feel, they don't don't see, they don't feel, they don't find personally extremely extremely find personally extremely extremely find personally extremely extremely useful, not at the levels of these useful, not at the levels of these useful, not at the levels of these valuations. They have a lot of questions valuations. They have a lot of questions valuations. They have a lot of questions about if the bubble pops, are we going about if the bubble pops, are we going about if the bubble pops, are we going to be the ones left with a stranded to be the ones left with a stranded to be the ones left with a stranded asset in our community? I mean, in asset in our community? I mean, in asset in our community? I mean, in Jainsville, Wisconsin, um it was Jainsville, Wisconsin, um it was Jainsville, Wisconsin, um it was famously the site of this 100-year-old famously the site of this 100-year-old famously the site of this 100-year-old GM plant um that was the centerpiece of GM plant um that was the centerpiece of GM plant um that was the centerpiece of the community that employed a ton of the community that employed a ton of the community that employed a ton of people. when they left during the people. when they left during the people. when they left during the financial crash in 2008 and the plant financial crash in 2008 and the plant financial crash in 2008 and the plant closed down. Not only did it sort of closed down. Not only did it sort of closed down. Not only did it sort of devastate the community from a work devastate the community from a work devastate the community from a work perspective, um but they also left $30

perspective, um but they also left $30 perspective, um but they also left $30 million of contamination and hazardous million of contamination and hazardous million of contamination and hazardous waste in the middle of the city that has waste in the middle of the city that has waste in the middle of the city that has never been cleaned up. There's forever never been cleaned up. There's forever never been cleaned up. There's forever chemicals in there. This is why chemicals in there. This is why chemicals in there. This is why developers have not been able to sell developers have not been able to sell developers have not been able to sell this brownfield is because there's so this brownfield is because there's so this brownfield is because there's so much waste that GM never cleaned up. And much waste that GM never cleaned up. And much waste that GM never cleaned up. And so I think that people worry about what so I think that people worry about what so I think that people worry about what happens if the AI bubble pops. If maybe happens if the AI bubble pops. If maybe happens if the AI bubble pops. If maybe it doesn't pop and the data center it doesn't pop and the data center it doesn't pop and the data center developers just decide, never mind, we developers just decide, never mind, we developers just decide, never mind, we want to build elsewhere. Never mind, want to build elsewhere. Never mind, want to build elsewhere. Never mind, this data center isn't good enough. We this data center isn't good enough. We this data center isn't good enough. We have newer, better technology. And who's have newer, better technology. And who's have newer, better technology. And who's going to be left holding the bag? That going to be left holding the bag? That going to be left holding the bag? That was the question I heard over and over was the question I heard over and over was the question I heard over and over again. again. again. >> But this is something that I do think is >> But this is something that I do think is >> But this is something that I do think is in people's minds, right? You you bring in people's minds, right? You you bring in people's minds, right? You you bring this in and right now you're at this this in and right now you're at this this in and right now you're at this time of very very high valuations, time of very very high valuations, time of very very high valuations, >> right? And if AI demand isn't quite what >> right? And if AI demand isn't quite what >> right? And if AI demand isn't quite what you think or even just the company that you think or even just the company that you think or even just the company that was behind this particular data center was behind this particular data center was behind this particular data center is not part of the winner's circle is not part of the winner's circle is not part of the winner's circle >> that in a couple years what you got is >> that in a couple years what you got is >> that in a couple years what you got is this like giant this like giant this like giant >> box. >> box. >> box. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's not going to continue being >> That's not going to continue being >> That's not going to continue being valuable. And so whatever the promised valuable. And so whatever the promised valuable. And so whatever the promised benefits are from it, you know, tax benefits are from it, you know, tax benefits are from it, you know, tax revenue, etc. Yeah. Maybe they show up revenue, etc. Yeah. Maybe they show up revenue, etc. Yeah. Maybe they show up for a while.

for a while. for a while. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But then what if in 5 years they're >> But then what if in 5 years they're >> But then what if in 5 years they're gone, but you are left with this gone, but you are left with this gone, but you are left with this infrastructure. It's like they can leave infrastructure. It's like they can leave infrastructure. It's like they can leave Jainsville, right, Jainsville, right, Jainsville, right, >> with no real concern. They're not there. >> with no real concern. They're not there. >> with no real concern. They're not there. Their people don't live there, right? Their people don't live there, right? Their people don't live there, right? But if you're in Jainsville, you do live But if you're in Jainsville, you do live But if you're in Jainsville, you do live there. there. there. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. A real concern. >> Yeah. A real concern. >> Yeah. A real concern. >> You see the You see things like this >> You see the You see things like this >> You see the You see things like this with Elon's giant Colossus data centers, with Elon's giant Colossus data centers, with Elon's giant Colossus data centers, right, that he built out in Memphis? right, that he built out in Memphis? right, that he built out in Memphis? >> And what makes people feel better about >> And what makes people feel better about >> And what makes people feel better about a new construction project in their town a new construction project in their town a new construction project in their town than calling it Colossus? than calling it Colossus? than calling it Colossus? >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I mean, these things Yeah. I mean, these things Yeah. I mean, these things >> unairring touch for the people. >> unairring touch for the people. >> unairring touch for the people. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I mean, so usually the thing that I mean, so usually the thing that I mean, so usually the thing that happens is they give them very cutesy happens is they give them very cutesy happens is they give them very cutesy names like Project Canoli and the barn names like Project Canoli and the barn names like Project Canoli and the barn and they try to make them sound as and they try to make them sound as and they try to make them sound as friendly as possible. But yeah, I mean friendly as possible. But yeah, I mean friendly as possible. But yeah, I mean with Colossus, XAI never really took with Colossus, XAI never really took with Colossus, XAI never really took off. People were not in fact using Grock off. People were not in fact using Grock off. People were not in fact using Grock as much as Elon thought he they were as much as Elon thought he they were as much as Elon thought he they were going to be using it. And in that case, going to be using it. And in that case, going to be using it. And in that case, he was able to get a really good deal he was able to get a really good deal he was able to get a really good deal selling the compute capacity to selling the compute capacity to selling the compute capacity to Anthropic, which was growing like crazy Anthropic, which was growing like crazy Anthropic, which was growing like crazy and had not built enough data centers on and had not built enough data centers on and had not built enough data centers on their side. But you could totally their side. But you could totally their side. But you could totally imagine a world as you say where in fact imagine a world as you say where in fact imagine a world as you say where in fact you know XAI decides we are going to you know XAI decides we are going to you know XAI decides we are going to focus on space. We don't care about AI focus on space. We don't care about AI focus on space. We don't care about AI anymore. Maybe there's non-anthropic to anymore. Maybe there's non-anthropic to anymore. Maybe there's non-anthropic to pick up the bill because anthropic has pick up the bill because anthropic has pick up the bill because anthropic has maybe built enough of their own compute maybe built enough of their own compute maybe built enough of their own compute capacity. There is an open question capacity. There is an open question capacity. There is an open question about what happens in that world. So uh about what happens in that world. So uh about what happens in that world. So uh I wrote abundance uh last year with I wrote abundance uh last year with I wrote abundance uh last year with Derek Thompson who published it Derek Thompson who published it Derek Thompson who published it >> and one thing I've heard been asked by a >> and one thing I've heard been asked by a >> and one thing I've heard been asked by a lot of people is like what is the lot of people is like what is the lot of people is like what is the abundance take on a data center abundance take on a data center abundance take on a data center >> and the like the beginning of that book >> and the like the beginning of that book >> and the like the beginning of that book has this line that uh you know the has this line that uh you know the has this line that uh you know the question is what do we need more of and question is what do we need more of and question is what do we need more of and how do we get it

how do we get it how do we get it >> and I think the question here that has >> and I think the question here that has >> and I think the question here that has been so [snorts] hard for the AI been so [snorts] hard for the AI been so [snorts] hard for the AI companies for the people trying to build companies for the people trying to build companies for the people trying to build data centers is data centers is data centers is actually getting people to believe they actually getting people to believe they actually getting people to believe they need more of them. Right? When you're need more of them. Right? When you're need more of them. Right? When you're talking about building affordable talking about building affordable talking about building affordable housing, when you're talking about, you housing, when you're talking about, you housing, when you're talking about, you know, building an array of solar panels know, building an array of solar panels know, building an array of solar panels or wind turbines, or wind turbines, or wind turbines, >> there's a pretty legible argument. >> there's a pretty legible argument. >> there's a pretty legible argument. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> For why you need that, right? People >> For why you need that, right? People >> For why you need that, right? People still may not like it, but we need homes still may not like it, but we need homes still may not like it, but we need homes because we need places for people to because we need places for people to because we need places for people to live. live. live. >> We need solar panels because we need >> We need solar panels because we need >> We need solar panels because we need clean, renewable energy. clean, renewable energy. clean, renewable energy. How much is this like a normal kind of I How much is this like a normal kind of I How much is this like a normal kind of I don't even exactly want to call it don't even exactly want to call it don't even exactly want to call it nimism but uh but a normal kind of I nimism but uh but a normal kind of I nimism but uh but a normal kind of I don't want the industrial infrastructure don't want the industrial infrastructure don't want the industrial infrastructure built in my backyard because like you built in my backyard because like you built in my backyard because like you know what am I going to get out of that know what am I going to get out of that know what am I going to get out of that >> and how much of it is actually something >> and how much of it is actually something >> and how much of it is actually something that is more related to people's that is more related to people's that is more related to people's feelings about AI which is I don't want feelings about AI which is I don't want feelings about AI which is I don't want this built here because why would I want this built here because why would I want this built here because why would I want to pay the cost for a thing that I don't to pay the cost for a thing that I don't to pay the cost for a thing that I don't want there to even be more of in the want there to even be more of in the want there to even be more of in the first device.

first device. first device. >> This I think was one of my big >> This I think was one of my big >> This I think was one of my big motivating questions going into this motivating questions going into this motivating questions going into this trip is is it quote unquote normal trip is is it quote unquote normal trip is is it quote unquote normal nimiism? Is it about AI? Is it about nimiism? Is it about AI? Is it about nimiism? Is it about AI? Is it about something else? And so I spent time both something else? And so I spent time both something else? And so I spent time both looking at polls and trying to talk to looking at polls and trying to talk to looking at polls and trying to talk to people about would you be excited if people about would you be excited if people about would you be excited if this was a chip factory which would use this was a chip factory which would use this was a chip factory which would use a lot more water and pollute a lot more. a lot more water and pollute a lot more. a lot more water and pollute a lot more. Would you be excited if it was a solar Would you be excited if it was a solar Would you be excited if it was a solar farm? Also maybe acquiring agricultural farm? Also maybe acquiring agricultural farm? Also maybe acquiring agricultural land and turning it into industrial use. land and turning it into industrial use. land and turning it into industrial use. Would you be excited if it was a million Would you be excited if it was a million Would you be excited if it was a million other things? And um I talked to Nick other things? And um I talked to Nick other things? And um I talked to Nick Bagley who you've had on your show about Bagley who you've had on your show about Bagley who you've had on your show about is this just proceduralism and we talked is this just proceduralism and we talked is this just proceduralism and we talked about the solar farms example where about the solar farms example where about the solar farms example where solar farms uh the opposition use very solar farms uh the opposition use very solar farms uh the opposition use very similar tactics to the data center similar tactics to the data center similar tactics to the data center opposition. They were organizing in opposition. They were organizing in opposition. They were organizing in Facebook groups. They were packing town Facebook groups. They were packing town Facebook groups. They were packing town halls. They were talking about the local halls. They were talking about the local halls. They were talking about the local impacts and the importance of farmland impacts and the importance of farmland impacts and the importance of farmland and the visions for their communities. and the visions for their communities. and the visions for their communities. Um there were zoning fights of course. Um there were zoning fights of course. Um there were zoning fights of course. Um, but like you say with the solar Um, but like you say with the solar Um, but like you say with the solar farms, you do have a very clear procase. farms, you do have a very clear procase. farms, you do have a very clear procase. You have a faction. You have a group of You have a faction. You have a group of You have a faction. You have a group of people, a constituency, people who care people, a constituency, people who care people, a constituency, people who care about the environment, who want about the environment, who want about the environment, who want renewable energy, who understand that renewable energy, who understand that renewable energy, who understand that that's a thing that, yeah, maybe it that's a thing that, yeah, maybe it that's a thing that, yeah, maybe it sucks to have in your backyard, but you sucks to have in your backyard, but you sucks to have in your backyard, but you can take one for the team because this can take one for the team because this can take one for the team because this is important for our planet. Um, you is important for our planet. Um, you is important for our planet. Um, you don't really have a pro- faction with don't really have a pro- faction with don't really have a pro- faction with AI. Same with like the auto plant, AI. Same with like the auto plant, AI. Same with like the auto plant, right? You have one, you have maybe right? You have one, you have maybe right? You have one, you have maybe 7,000 workers in the old GM plant in 7,000 workers in the old GM plant in 7,000 workers in the old GM plant in Jainsville who all have families who Jainsville who all have families who Jainsville who all have families who really care about them, who see that as really care about them, who see that as really care about them, who see that as a constituency. Everyone drives a car.

a constituency. Everyone drives a car. a constituency. Everyone drives a car. They see their car as essential. I think They see their car as essential. I think They see their car as essential. I think the fact that it's creating these the fact that it's creating these the fact that it's creating these tangible outputs really, really matter. tangible outputs really, really matter. tangible outputs really, really matter. Um, I don't think that data centers have Um, I don't think that data centers have Um, I don't think that data centers have a compelling a compelling a compelling proconstituency besides the utility proconstituency besides the utility proconstituency besides the utility companies and the AI companies which are companies and the AI companies which are companies and the AI companies which are already incredibly incredibly unpopular. already incredibly incredibly unpopular. already incredibly incredibly unpopular. And I went in and asked these And I went in and asked these And I went in and asked these organizers, do you guys use AI? I do organizers, do you guys use AI? I do organizers, do you guys use AI? I do find it useful. This was one of the top find it useful. This was one of the top find it useful. This was one of the top questions that my friends in San questions that my friends in San questions that my friends in San Francisco wanted me to ask is, "Are Francisco wanted me to ask is, "Are Francisco wanted me to ask is, "Are these people like using Chat GBT?" And these people like using Chat GBT?" And these people like using Chat GBT?" And they don't even realize that the data they don't even realize that the data they don't even realize that the data centers are how they can use it. And centers are how they can use it. And centers are how they can use it. And what I found there was a lot of these what I found there was a lot of these what I found there was a lot of these folks did say, "Yeah, I've used it to folks did say, "Yeah, I've used it to folks did say, "Yeah, I've used it to draft an email or make a meme." They're draft an email or make a meme." They're draft an email or make a meme." They're not denying that AI might have any not denying that AI might have any not denying that AI might have any possible utility at all. Um, but they possible utility at all. Um, but they possible utility at all. Um, but they clearly didn't see it as essential in clearly didn't see it as essential in clearly didn't see it as essential in the way that cars, energy, and housing the way that cars, energy, and housing the way that cars, energy, and housing are essential. They clearly saw it as are essential. They clearly saw it as are essential. They clearly saw it as kind of like a widget, a toy. Um, and kind of like a widget, a toy. Um, and kind of like a widget, a toy. Um, and maybe there are these risks, maybe maybe there are these risks, maybe maybe there are these risks, maybe there's the job stuff, but fundamentally there's the job stuff, but fundamentally there's the job stuff, but fundamentally they were like, "This thing is not that they were like, "This thing is not that they were like, "This thing is not that useful. I don't really see in my useful. I don't really see in my useful. I don't really see in my personal life how this could justify personal life how this could justify personal life how this could justify these gigantic valuations." And so I was these gigantic valuations." And so I was these gigantic valuations." And so I was talking to for example um Charles talking to for example um Charles talking to for example um Charles Franklin who runs Marquette Law Polls in Franklin who runs Marquette Law Polls in Franklin who runs Marquette Law Polls in Wisconsin and he was explaining that Wisconsin and he was explaining that Wisconsin and he was explaining that usually you see 50/50 polling on issues usually you see 50/50 polling on issues usually you see 50/50 polling on issues where you have a strong anti-case and a where you have a strong anti-case and a where you have a strong anti-case and a strong proase and the only reason you're strong proase and the only reason you're strong proase and the only reason you're kind of seeing this 7030 bipartisan kind of seeing this 7030 bipartisan kind of seeing this 7030 bipartisan opposition to data centers no matter opposition to data centers no matter opposition to data centers no matter whether you live near a data center or whether you live near a data center or whether you live near a data center or you don't which means it's not just you don't which means it's not just you don't which means it's not just nimism it's you don't want a data center nimism it's you don't want a data center nimism it's you don't want a data center in anyone's backyard um is because he in anyone's backyard um is because he in anyone's backyard um is because he was like there is no strong proargument was like there is no strong proargument was like there is no strong proargument for it. There is not even a fight that's for it. There is not even a fight that's for it. There is not even a fight that's really going on. Nobody wants it was a

really going on. Nobody wants it was a really going on. Nobody wants it was a phrase I heard over and over. phrase I heard over and over. phrase I heard over and over. >> You have a very influential definition >> You have a very influential definition >> You have a very influential definition of AI populism where you call it a of AI populism where you call it a of AI populism where you call it a worldview in which AI is viewed not only worldview in which AI is viewed not only worldview in which AI is viewed not only as a normal technology but as an elite as a normal technology but as an elite as a normal technology but as an elite political project to be resisted. political project to be resisted. political project to be resisted. Unpack that for me. Unpack that for me. Unpack that for me. >> The phrase that you hear a lot from AI >> The phrase that you hear a lot from AI >> The phrase that you hear a lot from AI critics is why is this being shoved down critics is why is this being shoved down critics is why is this being shoved down our throats? um or with you know chatbt our throats? um or with you know chatbt our throats? um or with you know chatbt it's not that people are saying there is it's not that people are saying there is it's not that people are saying there is literally no use for chatbt it's people literally no use for chatbt it's people literally no use for chatbt it's people are saying why are you forcing me at my are saying why are you forcing me at my are saying why are you forcing me at my job to use AI to do something worse when job to use AI to do something worse when job to use AI to do something worse when I could do it better and so I think that I could do it better and so I think that I could do it better and so I think that a lot of the public backlash to AI that a lot of the public backlash to AI that a lot of the public backlash to AI that has risen over the past six months is has risen over the past six months is has risen over the past six months is not explained by people thinking that not explained by people thinking that not explained by people thinking that the technology has no use at all um it's the technology has no use at all um it's the technology has no use at all um it's not explained by them being worried not explained by them being worried not explained by them being worried about specific technical property about specific technical property about specific technical property properties of LLMs that might lead to properties of LLMs that might lead to properties of LLMs that might lead to rogue AI or misalignment or whatever, rogue AI or misalignment or whatever, rogue AI or misalignment or whatever, which are the sort of safetiest which are the sort of safetiest which are the sort of safetiest arguments. It's AI as sort of an avatar arguments. It's AI as sort of an avatar arguments. It's AI as sort of an avatar for a small group of Silicon Valley for a small group of Silicon Valley for a small group of Silicon Valley billionaires ability to impose their billionaires ability to impose their billionaires ability to impose their vision of the world onto everybody else vision of the world onto everybody else vision of the world onto everybody else without their consent. And I think without their consent. And I think without their consent. And I think that's also what I hear echoed in these that's also what I hear echoed in these that's also what I hear echoed in these data center debates. It's not just uh data center debates. It's not just uh data center debates. It's not just uh it's going to use this much water or it's going to use this much water or it's going to use this much water or that much water. I frankly think that that much water. I frankly think that that much water. I frankly think that even if there was no misinformation even if there was no misinformation even if there was no misinformation about water use, people would be just as about water use, people would be just as about water use, people would be just as angry about the data centers.

angry about the data centers. angry about the data centers. >> Yeah. I consider the water I don't want >> Yeah. I consider the water I don't want >> Yeah. I consider the water I don't want to say the water issue is fake. Um what to say the water issue is fake. Um what to say the water issue is fake. Um what I will say is like there was a debate I will say is like there was a debate I will say is like there was a debate >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> uh online a while back about how much um >> uh online a while back about how much um >> uh online a while back about how much um water like a chachbd query water like a chachbd query water like a chachbd query >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> consumed. And somebody was like if you >> consumed. And somebody was like if you >> consumed. And somebody was like if you really care about water are you are you really care about water are you are you really care about water are you are you eating beef? eating beef? eating beef? >> Yes. As someone who doesn't eat meat, I >> Yes. As someone who doesn't eat meat, I >> Yes. As someone who doesn't eat meat, I thought this was a quite good like you thought this was a quite good like you thought this was a quite good like you could really save a lot of water by could really save a lot of water by could really save a lot of water by going vegetarian. going vegetarian. going vegetarian. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and relatively much much more than >> Um and relatively much much more than >> Um and relatively much much more than not using cha and relatively few people not using cha and relatively few people not using cha and relatively few people in that conversation were giving up meat in that conversation were giving up meat in that conversation were giving up meat >> or giving up YouTube videos >> or giving up YouTube videos >> or giving up YouTube videos like use more water than a chachi query. like use more water than a chachi query. like use more water than a chachi query. >> Which is to say that I think sometimes >> Which is to say that I think sometimes >> Which is to say that I think sometimes people don't like a thing and they're people don't like a thing and they're people don't like a thing and they're looking for reasons to justify that looking for reasons to justify that looking for reasons to justify that dislike. dislike. dislike. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But what's actually happening at the >> But what's actually happening at the >> But what's actually happening at the base is they don't like the thing. base is they don't like the thing. base is they don't like the thing. >> Right. and the data centers like as >> Right. and the data centers like as >> Right. and the data centers like as you're saying I think speak to this AI you're saying I think speak to this AI you're saying I think speak to this AI populism question like even more populism question like even more populism question like even more precisely because the issue with AI precisely because the issue with AI precisely because the issue with AI itself is that I think people's itself is that I think people's itself is that I think people's relationship to it is very complicated relationship to it is very complicated relationship to it is very complicated right I have myself a very complicated right I have myself a very complicated right I have myself a very complicated relationship to AI like I use it a fair relationship to AI like I use it a fair relationship to AI like I use it a fair amount amount amount >> I'm not sure I think it's a good thing >> I'm not sure I think it's a good thing >> I'm not sure I think it's a good thing for society the way it is going I don't for society the way it is going I don't for society the way it is going I don't want my kids using it I know they'll be want my kids using it I know they'll be want my kids using it I know they'll be using it like maybe it'll make things using it like maybe it'll make things using it like maybe it'll make things better but I really don't know like I better but I really don't know like I better but I really don't know like I think that the costs are going to be think that the costs are going to be think that the costs are going to be very very high for us relationally and very very high for us relationally and very very high for us relationally and economically and you know and so I just economically and you know and so I just economically and you know and so I just I'm very conflicted I'm very conflicted I'm very conflicted >> but do I want to live next to a data >> but do I want to live next to a data >> but do I want to live next to a data center? Yeah. No.

center? Yeah. No. center? Yeah. No. >> Yeah. [laughter] It's totally different. >> Yeah. [laughter] It's totally different. >> Yeah. [laughter] It's totally different. >> Like that's easier. >> Like that's easier. >> Like that's easier. >> I mean one of the most >> I mean one of the most >> I mean one of the most >> somebody is just making you do that. >> somebody is just making you do that. >> somebody is just making you do that. >> Yes. of like going to this um I back >> Yes. of like going to this um I back >> Yes. of like going to this um I back toback I went to this Abdul Bernie AOC toback I went to this Abdul Bernie AOC toback I went to this Abdul Bernie AOC rally in Lancing, Michigan and then I rally in Lancing, Michigan and then I rally in Lancing, Michigan and then I went and saw the Seline activist the went and saw the Seline activist the went and saw the Seline activist the next day and I was researching how the next day and I was researching how the next day and I was researching how the Seline Stargate project happened and it Seline Stargate project happened and it Seline Stargate project happened and it was really interesting to see these was really interesting to see these was really interesting to see these echoes of the populist message sort of echoes of the populist message sort of echoes of the populist message sort of manifest in this specific project. Like manifest in this specific project. Like manifest in this specific project. Like when I'm at this rally, people are when I'm at this rally, people are when I'm at this rally, people are talking about the oligarchy. talking talking about the oligarchy. talking talking about the oligarchy. talking about uh corporate billionaires, whether about uh corporate billionaires, whether about uh corporate billionaires, whether it's big tech or big pharma or DT, the it's big tech or big pharma or DT, the it's big tech or big pharma or DT, the utility companies, um paying off utility companies, um paying off utility companies, um paying off politicians in order to, you know, screw politicians in order to, you know, screw politicians in order to, you know, screw the people over. And that's why you need the people over. And that's why you need the people over. And that's why you need the people to come together and to get the people to come together and to get the people to come together and to get money out of politics to prevent DT from money out of politics to prevent DT from money out of politics to prevent DT from donating to these super PACs and paying donating to these super PACs and paying donating to these super PACs and paying off Gretchen Whitmer or whatever. And um off Gretchen Whitmer or whatever. And um off Gretchen Whitmer or whatever. And um then when I learned how the Selen data then when I learned how the Selen data then when I learned how the Selen data center saga played out, what happened center saga played out, what happened center saga played out, what happened was the Selen Township City Council, was the Selen Township City Council, was the Selen Township City Council, unlike a lot of city councils actually unlike a lot of city councils actually unlike a lot of city councils actually voted 41 against reszoning their land voted 41 against reszoning their land voted 41 against reszoning their land for the data center. So this was a case for the data center. So this was a case for the data center. So this was a case where local government said, "This is where local government said, "This is where local government said, "This is not our vision for our community. It's not our vision for our community. It's not our vision for our community. It's not worth it to us." And what happened?

not worth it to us." And what happened? not worth it to us." And what happened? The data center developers sued Selene The data center developers sued Selene The data center developers sued Selene Township, a town of like again a few Township, a town of like again a few Township, a town of like again a few thousand people, um into saying, "Wait, thousand people, um into saying, "Wait, thousand people, um into saying, "Wait, no, this is exclusionary zoning. you no, this is exclusionary zoning. you no, this is exclusionary zoning. you can't have no industrial use in your can't have no industrial use in your can't have no industrial use in your entire township. And when a town of that entire township. And when a town of that entire township. And when a town of that size is getting sued by a giant AI data size is getting sued by a giant AI data size is getting sued by a giant AI data center developer, they just settled. center developer, they just settled. center developer, they just settled. They were just like, fine, give us a few They were just like, fine, give us a few They were just like, fine, give us a few million for the fire department and for million for the fire department and for million for the fire department and for some schools. And this fight is not some schools. And this fight is not some schools. And this fight is not worth it to us. But that to people felt worth it to us. But that to people felt worth it to us. But that to people felt like a profound a profound violation of like a profound a profound violation of like a profound a profound violation of little democracy. It felt like the dark little democracy. It felt like the dark little democracy. It felt like the dark money and politics story, which is, you money and politics story, which is, you money and politics story, which is, you know, you have some very rich companies know, you have some very rich companies know, you have some very rich companies show up with the bag of money to your show up with the bag of money to your show up with the bag of money to your politicians. They don't tell anybody politicians. They don't tell anybody politicians. They don't tell anybody else what's happening. the politicians else what's happening. the politicians else what's happening. the politicians aren't allowed to tell their citizens aren't allowed to tell their citizens aren't allowed to tell their citizens and involve them in the decision-making and involve them in the decision-making and involve them in the decision-making process and they themselves work out a process and they themselves work out a process and they themselves work out a deal, a deal that is fundamentally deal, a deal that is fundamentally deal, a deal that is fundamentally asymmetric because of the amount of asymmetric because of the amount of asymmetric because of the amount of money on one side that will then money on one side that will then money on one side that will then transform the image of your community, transform the image of your community, transform the image of your community, your lived reality into the world that your lived reality into the world that your lived reality into the world that these tech companies have decided for these tech companies have decided for these tech companies have decided for you. And so I think that the data you. And so I think that the data you. And so I think that the data centers in that sense are a very centers in that sense are a very centers in that sense are a very visceral uh microcosm of the way that a visceral uh microcosm of the way that a visceral uh microcosm of the way that a lot of people feel that AI is showing up lot of people feel that AI is showing up lot of people feel that AI is showing up in their lives. I in their lives. I in their lives. I >> I would also maybe even take that a >> I would also maybe even take that a >> I would also maybe even take that a little bit further. I think that the way little bit further. I think that the way little bit further. I think that the way that not all of the egg companies and I that not all of the egg companies and I that not all of the egg companies and I think Anthropic has largely been a a think Anthropic has largely been a a think Anthropic has largely been a a good actor here, but many of them have good actor here, but many of them have good actor here, but many of them have acted has opened up such a chasm between acted has opened up such a chasm between acted has opened up such a chasm between what they say and then how they act what they say and then how they act what they say and then how they act under pressure that one should be under pressure that one should be under pressure that one should be incredibly incredibly skeptical of them.

incredibly incredibly skeptical of them. incredibly incredibly skeptical of them. And what I mean by this is that, And what I mean by this is that, And what I mean by this is that, you know, Sam Alolman and all these you know, Sam Alolman and all these you know, Sam Alolman and all these different people, you know, in front of different people, you know, in front of different people, you know, in front of congressional testimony and in congressional testimony and in congressional testimony and in interviews will say, you know, it should interviews will say, you know, it should interviews will say, you know, it should not just be us making these decisions. not just be us making these decisions. not just be us making these decisions. There should be a real deep small D There should be a real deep small D There should be a real deep small D democratic role here in how AI rolls out democratic role here in how AI rolls out democratic role here in how AI rolls out in um, you know, what effects it has on in um, you know, what effects it has on in um, you know, what effects it has on communities and how it is governed. communities and how it is governed. communities and how it is governed. And then when a community or a And then when a community or a And then when a community or a politician politician politician you know who is representing a community you know who is representing a community you know who is representing a community tries to say well we don't want the tries to say well we don't want the tries to say well we don't want the status here or we want to impose these status here or we want to impose these status here or we want to impose these regulations. regulations. regulations. >> We have watched repeatedly these >> We have watched repeatedly these >> We have watched repeatedly these companies companies companies >> turn tremendous amounts of financial >> turn tremendous amounts of financial >> turn tremendous amounts of financial artillery. artillery. artillery. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Against whoever is standing in their >> Against whoever is standing in their >> Against whoever is standing in their way. Right. and to to use this the way. Right. and to to use this the way. Right. and to to use this the expertise and the money and the power expertise and the money and the power expertise and the money and the power they are amassing to kind of they are amassing to kind of they are amassing to kind of shortcircuit that democratic voice. shortcircuit that democratic voice. shortcircuit that democratic voice. >> Yeah. I mean a couple things. One is >> Yeah. I mean a couple things. One is >> Yeah. I mean a couple things. One is like I think one big gap I noticed like I think one big gap I noticed like I think one big gap I noticed between Silicon Valley and the folks in between Silicon Valley and the folks in between Silicon Valley and the folks in these communities I was talking to is these communities I was talking to is these communities I was talking to is Silicon Valley does tend to think that Silicon Valley does tend to think that Silicon Valley does tend to think that money solves all problems. That if you money solves all problems. That if you money solves all problems. That if you just make the check bigger everything's just make the check bigger everything's just make the check bigger everything's going to be okay. And I think people going to be okay. And I think people going to be okay. And I think people have a sense for I'm being bribed. This have a sense for I'm being bribed. This have a sense for I'm being bribed. This corporation is not offering me a free corporation is not offering me a free corporation is not offering me a free lunch or whatever. there's going to be lunch or whatever. there's going to be lunch or whatever. there's going to be something that I'm losing here. And in something that I'm losing here. And in something that I'm losing here. And in fact, sometimes the fact that the data fact, sometimes the fact that the data fact, sometimes the fact that the data center deals were bigger or the amount center deals were bigger or the amount center deals were bigger or the amount of political spending was bigger.

of political spending was bigger. of political spending was bigger. Actually, it just makes people more Actually, it just makes people more Actually, it just makes people more suspicious. Like in the Abdul race, like suspicious. Like in the Abdul race, like suspicious. Like in the Abdul race, like his number one like hit on Haley Stevens his number one like hit on Haley Stevens his number one like hit on Haley Stevens is how much money she is getting from is how much money she is getting from is how much money she is getting from Apac, from DTE, from Pharma, whatever. Apac, from DTE, from Pharma, whatever. Apac, from DTE, from Pharma, whatever. And so, one is just that I think we're And so, one is just that I think we're And so, one is just that I think we're in a political environment where making in a political environment where making in a political environment where making the numbers bigger and the amounts of the numbers bigger and the amounts of the numbers bigger and the amounts of money bigger makes people more money bigger makes people more money bigger makes people more suspicious, not less. Another one I'll suspicious, not less. Another one I'll suspicious, not less. Another one I'll just quickly mention is I don't even just quickly mention is I don't even just quickly mention is I don't even think anthropic should be left off the think anthropic should be left off the think anthropic should be left off the hook for things like labor market hook for things like labor market hook for things like labor market impacts, right? They are the ones impacts, right? They are the ones impacts, right? They are the ones simultaneously warning that we might see simultaneously warning that we might see simultaneously warning that we might see a you know 50% of white collar jobs lost a you know 50% of white collar jobs lost a you know 50% of white collar jobs lost by 2030. This is really important to us. by 2030. This is really important to us. by 2030. This is really important to us. We're freaking out about it. Uh Daario We're freaking out about it. Uh Daario We're freaking out about it. Uh Daario has written in his essays um we might has written in his essays um we might has written in his essays um we might see an underclass of people of lower see an underclass of people of lower see an underclass of people of lower intellectual ability and they are intellectual ability and they are intellectual ability and they are building the agents. They are building building the agents. They are building building the agents. They are building the coding agents, the banking agents, the coding agents, the banking agents, the coding agents, the banking agents, the design agents that they know are the design agents that they know are the design agents that they know are going to displace jobs or they believe going to displace jobs or they believe going to displace jobs or they believe at least are going to displace jobs. And at least are going to displace jobs. And at least are going to displace jobs. And I think that people feel that hypocrisy I think that people feel that hypocrisy I think that people feel that hypocrisy as well, which is if you are so worried as well, which is if you are so worried as well, which is if you are so worried about the inequality, why are you about the inequality, why are you about the inequality, why are you building the agents to do it? And when I building the agents to do it? And when I building the agents to do it? And when I ask executives and researchers and ask executives and researchers and ask executives and researchers and whoever at anthropic this question, they whoever at anthropic this question, they whoever at anthropic this question, they don't really have a good answer because don't really have a good answer because don't really have a good answer because it is true that their business model is it is true that their business model is it is true that their business model is fundamentally premised on the disruption fundamentally premised on the disruption fundamentally premised on the disruption that they say they are causing. You did that they say they are causing. You did that they say they are causing. You did a big piece for the Times on the very a big piece for the Times on the very a big piece for the Times on the very widespread belief in Silicon Valley that widespread belief in Silicon Valley that widespread belief in Silicon Valley that they will create this underclass.

they will create this underclass. they will create this underclass. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What does the underclass mean to them? >> What does the underclass mean to them? >> What does the underclass mean to them? >> The idea of a permanent underclass >> The idea of a permanent underclass >> The idea of a permanent underclass caused by AI is basically a world where caused by AI is basically a world where caused by AI is basically a world where any job a person can do either AI or a any job a person can do either AI or a any job a person can do either AI or a robot can do for them. which means that robot can do for them. which means that robot can do for them. which means that workers lose all the economic leverage workers lose all the economic leverage workers lose all the economic leverage they have and capital owners, people they have and capital owners, people they have and capital owners, people with money, can simply pay machine labor with money, can simply pay machine labor with money, can simply pay machine labor to do all the work instead of paying to do all the work instead of paying to do all the work instead of paying workers. What that means is anyone who workers. What that means is anyone who workers. What that means is anyone who earned their living by working is no earned their living by working is no earned their living by working is no longer able to do that. You end up with longer able to do that. You end up with longer able to do that. You end up with a world of runaway inequality where the a world of runaway inequality where the a world of runaway inequality where the rich get richer and the working class rich get richer and the working class rich get richer and the working class gets poor. Maybe they get some welfare gets poor. Maybe they get some welfare gets poor. Maybe they get some welfare checks, but fundamentally it's a loss of checks, but fundamentally it's a loss of checks, but fundamentally it's a loss of economic mobility in a society. And when economic mobility in a society. And when economic mobility in a society. And when I ask folks in Silicon Valley, do you I ask folks in Silicon Valley, do you I ask folks in Silicon Valley, do you think by default AI is going to increase think by default AI is going to increase think by default AI is going to increase or decrease inequality? I have not yet or decrease inequality? I have not yet or decrease inequality? I have not yet heard anyone say it will decrease heard anyone say it will decrease heard anyone say it will decrease inequality or keep it the same. They inequality or keep it the same. They inequality or keep it the same. They might say the floor will get really might say the floor will get really might say the floor will get really high. They might say AI will bring the high. They might say AI will bring the high. They might say AI will bring the cost of consumer goods down and so cost of consumer goods down and so cost of consumer goods down and so people's lives are going to get cheaper people's lives are going to get cheaper people's lives are going to get cheaper and you know everyone will be super and you know everyone will be super and you know everyone will be super healthy so it's okay. But I have not healthy so it's okay. But I have not healthy so it's okay. But I have not heard a single person in the tech heard a single person in the tech heard a single person in the tech industry tell me that they believe that industry tell me that they believe that industry tell me that they believe that AI is going to decrease inequality. And AI is going to decrease inequality. And AI is going to decrease inequality. And in fact, many people are very worried in fact, many people are very worried in fact, many people are very worried that instead most workers will lose that instead most workers will lose that instead most workers will lose their leverage and be on a kind of their leverage and be on a kind of their leverage and be on a kind of permanent welfare in the faroff future.

permanent welfare in the faroff future. permanent welfare in the faroff future. >> I I'm pretty skeptical of this vision, >> I I'm pretty skeptical of this vision, >> I I'm pretty skeptical of this vision, although I don't rule it out, right? It although I don't rule it out, right? It although I don't rule it out, right? It might happen. Although, I just don't might happen. Although, I just don't might happen. Although, I just don't think AI is going to be quite as think AI is going to be quite as think AI is going to be quite as revolutionary as a lot of these people revolutionary as a lot of these people revolutionary as a lot of these people think and will not diffuse into the real think and will not diffuse into the real think and will not diffuse into the real world as easily. But, you know, the world as easily. But, you know, the world as easily. But, you know, the thing you're going to need to adjust to thing you're going to need to adjust to thing you're going to need to adjust to any major technological change is time. any major technological change is time. any major technological change is time. And then also it's like the AI industry And then also it's like the AI industry And then also it's like the AI industry is in like an allout war to make sure we is in like an allout war to make sure we is in like an allout war to make sure we have as little time for adjustment as have as little time for adjustment as have as little time for adjustment as possible. [laughter] possible. [laughter] possible. [laughter] >> I mean look at I just find it hard to >> I mean look at I just find it hard to >> I mean look at I just find it hard to like unnot that like unnot that like unnot that >> how many enterprise salespeople are open >> how many enterprise salespeople are open >> how many enterprise salespeople are open AI and anthropic hiring in order to AI and anthropic hiring in order to AI and anthropic hiring in order to convince companies that they can replace convince companies that they can replace convince companies that they can replace their workforce or not maybe not replace their workforce or not maybe not replace their workforce or not maybe not replace but expand their workforce with agents but expand their workforce with agents but expand their workforce with agents instead of humans. Right? They are instead of humans. Right? They are instead of humans. Right? They are having these sales conversations trying having these sales conversations trying having these sales conversations trying to persuade people of these questions. I to persuade people of these questions. I to persuade people of these questions. I don't think that a permanent underclass don't think that a permanent underclass don't think that a permanent underclass is the likeliest outcome economically is the likeliest outcome economically is the likeliest outcome economically that we're going to get. I think that AI that we're going to get. I think that AI that we're going to get. I think that AI is actually just really jagged and human is actually just really jagged and human is actually just really jagged and human jobs are super complex and super hard to jobs are super complex and super hard to jobs are super complex and super hard to automate. And most of the folks who are automate. And most of the folks who are automate. And most of the folks who are predicting economic apocalypse haven't predicting economic apocalypse haven't predicting economic apocalypse haven't actually worked enough real jobs to know actually worked enough real jobs to know actually worked enough real jobs to know how complicated and how multiaceted most how complicated and how multiaceted most how complicated and how multiaceted most jobs really are. But I definitely agree jobs really are. But I definitely agree jobs really are. But I definitely agree on the speed point. I think that like on the speed point. I think that like on the speed point. I think that like Alex economist has made this point very Alex economist has made this point very Alex economist has made this point very well. Um, one thing I think a lot about well. Um, one thing I think a lot about well. Um, one thing I think a lot about are people say, well, humans can adjust, are people say, well, humans can adjust, are people say, well, humans can adjust, humans can reskill, they can retrain, humans can reskill, they can retrain, humans can reskill, they can retrain, they can just do the new jobs that we're they can just do the new jobs that we're they can just do the new jobs that we're going to develop instead. But you look going to develop instead. But you look going to develop instead. But you look at things like software engineering at things like software engineering at things like software engineering where people will often say now, um, where people will often say now, um, where people will often say now, um, senior software engineers are doing senior software engineers are doing senior software engineers are doing great. They love cloud code. Um, junior great. They love cloud code. Um, junior great. They love cloud code. Um, junior software engineers have been mostly

software engineers have been mostly software engineers have been mostly replaced and you see hiring and job replaced and you see hiring and job replaced and you see hiring and job postings are down in that sector. Well, postings are down in that sector. Well, postings are down in that sector. Well, do we think that a human software do we think that a human software do we think that a human software engineer is going to rescale or upskill engineer is going to rescale or upskill engineer is going to rescale or upskill themselves faster than the next model is themselves faster than the next model is themselves faster than the next model is going to get better at software going to get better at software going to get better at software engineering? That's the question that I engineering? That's the question that I engineering? That's the question that I really wonder about is if AI progress really wonder about is if AI progress really wonder about is if AI progress outpaces humans ability to reskill, outpaces humans ability to reskill, outpaces humans ability to reskill, retrain, upskill, adapt, then I'm not retrain, upskill, adapt, then I'm not retrain, upskill, adapt, then I'm not really sure what there is going to be really sure what there is going to be really sure what there is going to be left there. There will be some jobs left there. There will be some jobs left there. There will be some jobs left, but it's going to be a really left, but it's going to be a really left, but it's going to be a really really painful adjustment. I have had so really painful adjustment. I have had so really painful adjustment. I have had so many people at the top of these many people at the top of these many people at the top of these companies, right, the very tippy top, companies, right, the very tippy top, companies, right, the very tippy top, tell me they wish all this would slow tell me they wish all this would slow tell me they wish all this would slow down. down. down. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I'm sure you have had them say this to >> I'm sure you have had them say this to >> I'm sure you have had them say this to you, right? But in this world where you, right? But in this world where you, right? But in this world where in their unguarded moments, they will in their unguarded moments, they will in their unguarded moments, they will say they wish all this was going slower. say they wish all this was going slower. say they wish all this was going slower. Well, one way to slow AI down is to Well, one way to slow AI down is to Well, one way to slow AI down is to constrict the number of data centers you constrict the number of data centers you constrict the number of data centers you can build. can build. can build. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. just like you've done, you know, as good just like you've done, you know, as good just like you've done, you know, as good a reporting as anybody on just how a reporting as anybody on just how a reporting as anybody on just how conflicted people even working for these conflicted people even working for these conflicted people even working for these companies seem to be about what they are companies seem to be about what they are companies seem to be about what they are building and yet that yet they're in building and yet that yet they're in building and yet that yet they're in this competitive race to build it as this competitive race to build it as this competitive race to build it as quickly as possible.

quickly as possible. quickly as possible. >> And so it makes them a pretty >> And so it makes them a pretty >> And so it makes them a pretty unconvincing unconvincing unconvincing >> pro faction. >> pro faction. >> pro faction. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> We're building the thing we're telling >> We're building the thing we're telling >> We're building the thing we're telling you to be afraid of and we need to build you to be afraid of and we need to build you to be afraid of and we need to build it as fast as possible even though we it as fast as possible even though we it as fast as possible even though we sort of admit that it would be better if sort of admit that it would be better if sort of admit that it would be better if the whole thing was slowed down. the whole thing was slowed down. the whole thing was slowed down. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. >> It's a weird argument. >> It's a weird argument. >> It's a weird argument. >> Yeah, it's so confusing. >> Yeah, it's so confusing. >> Yeah, it's so confusing. >> I remember when I sat down with Abdul >> I remember when I sat down with Abdul >> I remember when I sat down with Abdul Aliad, the Michigan Senate candidate, he Aliad, the Michigan Senate candidate, he Aliad, the Michigan Senate candidate, he cited Dario's 50% white collar job lost cited Dario's 50% white collar job lost cited Dario's 50% white collar job lost stat probably like five times in the stat probably like five times in the stat probably like five times in the 30-minute conversation. It's like he was 30-minute conversation. It's like he was 30-minute conversation. It's like he was like, they're saying that there's going like, they're saying that there's going like, they're saying that there's going to be recursive self-improvement and it to be recursive self-improvement and it to be recursive self-improvement and it might kill us all. Like, yeah, I get why might kill us all. Like, yeah, I get why might kill us all. Like, yeah, I get why you would not want to make this thing go you would not want to make this thing go you would not want to make this thing go faster. This is true for data centers, faster. This is true for data centers, faster. This is true for data centers, but it's true for any other reason way but it's true for any other reason way but it's true for any other reason way that you might slow AI down, which is that you might slow AI down, which is that you might slow AI down, which is that everyone only wants to be slowed that everyone only wants to be slowed that everyone only wants to be slowed down if they can guarantee that the down if they can guarantee that the down if they can guarantee that the other companies that the Chinese labs other companies that the Chinese labs other companies that the Chinese labs are going to slow down with them. So are going to slow down with them. So are going to slow down with them. So long as that's not true, they're going long as that's not true, they're going long as that's not true, they're going to keep racing. And I think for that to keep racing. And I think for that to keep racing. And I think for that reason, yeah, I mean, the thing that I reason, yeah, I mean, the thing that I reason, yeah, I mean, the thing that I hear when I talk to people at the hear when I talk to people at the hear when I talk to people at the companies, data center executives about companies, data center executives about companies, data center executives about the buildout is how much money do we the buildout is how much money do we the buildout is how much money do we need to give these cities to let us need to give these cities to let us need to give these cities to let us build a data center? tell us how to build a data center? tell us how to build a data center? tell us how to bribe them better. Tell us what we can bribe them better. Tell us what we can bribe them better. Tell us what we can do. And so when I talk to them about the do. And so when I talk to them about the do. And so when I talk to them about the buildup, I'm not hearing any sort of buildup, I'm not hearing any sort of buildup, I'm not hearing any sort of personal moral reckoning with slowing AI personal moral reckoning with slowing AI personal moral reckoning with slowing AI down. I'm hearing how do I make the down. I'm hearing how do I make the down. I'm hearing how do I make the bribes bigger? How big do they need to bribes bigger? How big do they need to bribes bigger? How big do they need to be?

be? be? >> So then how do you reconcile what >> So then how do you reconcile what >> So then how do you reconcile what many of these executives, many of these many of these executives, many of these many of these executives, many of these AI company workers are telling you about AI company workers are telling you about AI company workers are telling you about their fears of creating an underclass, their fears of creating an underclass, their fears of creating an underclass, about their fears of losing control. I about their fears of losing control. I about their fears of losing control. I mean we just saw the situation where uh mean we just saw the situation where uh mean we just saw the situation where uh open AI's model was breaking out of a open AI's model was breaking out of a open AI's model was breaking out of a sandbox in order to sort of cheat on its sandbox in order to sort of cheat on its sandbox in order to sort of cheat on its evaluation right so the AI safety people evaluation right so the AI safety people evaluation right so the AI safety people are very worried right the safety teams are very worried right the safety teams are very worried right the safety teams in here clearly don't have full control in here clearly don't have full control in here clearly don't have full control or even understanding of what they're or even understanding of what they're or even understanding of what they're building building building >> how do you reconcile if you reconcile >> how do you reconcile if you reconcile >> how do you reconcile if you reconcile the way the AI companies talk when they the way the AI companies talk when they the way the AI companies talk when they are giving voice to their fears or the are giving voice to their fears or the are giving voice to their fears or the people at them talk when they're giving people at them talk when they're giving people at them talk when they're giving voice to their fears voice to their fears voice to their fears and their like pretty profound hostility and their like pretty profound hostility and their like pretty profound hostility to anything that would slow down how to anything that would slow down how to anything that would slow down how fast we are building this thing whose fast we are building this thing whose fast we are building this thing whose consequences they freely admit they consequences they freely admit they consequences they freely admit they cannot predict. cannot predict. cannot predict. >> Yeah, it's fascinating because just on a >> Yeah, it's fascinating because just on a >> Yeah, it's fascinating because just on a very personal level when I talk to very personal level when I talk to very personal level when I talk to people at these companies I just think people at these companies I just think people at these companies I just think like man if I thought this thing might like man if I thought this thing might like man if I thought this thing might have a 10% chance of killing us all or have a 10% chance of killing us all or have a 10% chance of killing us all or taking taking everybody's job I wouldn't taking taking everybody's job I wouldn't taking taking everybody's job I wouldn't work on it. I would not build that. I work on it. I would not build that. I work on it. I would not build that. I personally [laughter] could not morally personally [laughter] could not morally personally [laughter] could not morally justify taking that chance. And and when justify taking that chance. And and when justify taking that chance. And and when I talk to people who are not in the San I talk to people who are not in the San I talk to people who are not in the San Francisco AI world, they feel like I do.

Francisco AI world, they feel like I do. Francisco AI world, they feel like I do. They're just like, why would you do it? They're just like, why would you do it? They're just like, why would you do it? And I think there are basically three And I think there are basically three And I think there are basically three rough buckets of rationale that I hear rough buckets of rationale that I hear rough buckets of rationale that I hear from people um or that I hear between from people um or that I hear between from people um or that I hear between the lines from people. One is um this the lines from people. One is um this the lines from people. One is um this sort of sense of technetism. sort of sense of technetism. sort of sense of technetism. It's super intelligence is going to be It's super intelligence is going to be It's super intelligence is going to be built inevitably. there is no way it's built inevitably. there is no way it's built inevitably. there is no way it's not going to happen. If it happens, I not going to happen. If it happens, I not going to happen. If it happens, I want to be part of it. I want to make my want to be part of it. I want to make my want to be part of it. I want to make my money from it. I want to maybe make it money from it. I want to maybe make it money from it. I want to maybe make it happen in the least bad way. I think happen in the least bad way. I think happen in the least bad way. I think that's a super common answer. Another is that's a super common answer. Another is that's a super common answer. Another is um um um this technology might kill us all, but this technology might kill us all, but this technology might kill us all, but it also might be really amazing. It it also might be really amazing. It it also might be really amazing. It might produce super abundance for might produce super abundance for might produce super abundance for everybody. We might be immortal. everybody. We might be immortal. everybody. We might be immortal. um it might double everyone's lifespans, um it might double everyone's lifespans, um it might double everyone's lifespans, cure all diseases, bring the cost of cure all diseases, bring the cost of cure all diseases, bring the cost of every consumer good, housing, energy, every consumer good, housing, energy, every consumer good, housing, energy, whatever to near zero. And that would be whatever to near zero. And that would be whatever to near zero. And that would be utopia. And so I think all the time to utopia. And so I think all the time to utopia. And so I think all the time to that anecdote that I think SPF said on a that anecdote that I think SPF said on a that anecdote that I think SPF said on a podcast where it's podcast where it's podcast where it's >> Sam Bankman Freed. >> Sam Bankman Freed. >> Sam Bankman Freed. >> Yeah, Sam Bankman Freed sent out a >> Yeah, Sam Bankman Freed sent out a >> Yeah, Sam Bankman Freed sent out a podcast where it was like if you could podcast where it was like if you could podcast where it was like if you could flip a coin and it was 51% odds you flip a coin and it was 51% odds you flip a coin and it was 51% odds you would double the total amount of like would double the total amount of like would double the total amount of like human welfare and 49% chance everyone human welfare and 49% chance everyone human welfare and 49% chance everyone dies, would you flip the coin? He says dies, would you flip the coin? He says dies, would you flip the coin? He says yes. And again, I feel compelled to say yes. And again, I feel compelled to say yes. And again, I feel compelled to say like caveats here of like, you know, how like caveats here of like, you know, how like caveats here of like, you know, how do you really know that's what's do you really know that's what's do you really know that's what's happening? Blah blah blah, whatever. Put happening? Blah blah blah, whatever. Put happening? Blah blah blah, whatever. Put that aside. Take the hypothetical, the that aside. Take the hypothetical, the that aside. Take the hypothetical, the pure hypothetical. Um, uh, yeah. Yeah.

pure hypothetical. Um, uh, yeah. Yeah. pure hypothetical. Um, uh, yeah. Yeah. >> I think this is a hyperbolic example, >> I think this is a hyperbolic example, >> I think this is a hyperbolic example, but I think it's not actually that far but I think it's not actually that far but I think it's not actually that far off from what a lot of the people off from what a lot of the people off from what a lot of the people building super intelligence believe too, building super intelligence believe too, building super intelligence believe too, that they are basically willing to flip that they are basically willing to flip that they are basically willing to flip the coin. Maybe we all die, but maybe the coin. Maybe we all die, but maybe the coin. Maybe we all die, but maybe we're all immortal, and that expected we're all immortal, and that expected we're all immortal, and that expected valuewise cancels things out. Um, and valuewise cancels things out. Um, and valuewise cancels things out. Um, and then the final category is just I think then the final category is just I think then the final category is just I think folks who are so fascinated by the folks who are so fascinated by the folks who are so fascinated by the technical endeavor of whether we can technical endeavor of whether we can technical endeavor of whether we can build this thing and how to do it that build this thing and how to do it that build this thing and how to do it that they just aren't super worried about the they just aren't super worried about the they just aren't super worried about the consequences or what else might happen. consequences or what else might happen. consequences or what else might happen. Um, so people have all sorts of Um, so people have all sorts of Um, so people have all sorts of self-justifying narratives as to why self-justifying narratives as to why self-justifying narratives as to why it's worth it. Some I think are better it's worth it. Some I think are better it's worth it. Some I think are better than others. Um, but it makes sense to than others. Um, but it makes sense to than others. Um, but it makes sense to me why the public is not particularly me why the public is not particularly me why the public is not particularly sympathetic to any of these. sympathetic to any of these. sympathetic to any of these. >> I mean that middle narrative I I heard >> I mean that middle narrative I I heard >> I mean that middle narrative I I heard Sam Bankman Freed say that. I think it Sam Bankman Freed say that. I think it Sam Bankman Freed say that. I think it was on Tyler Cowan's podcast and was on Tyler Cowan's podcast and was on Tyler Cowan's podcast and >> I was like, "Oh, that's psych that's a >> I was like, "Oh, that's psych that's a >> I was like, "Oh, that's psych that's a psychopath, psychopath, psychopath, >> right?" To actually believe that, you >> right?" To actually believe that, you >> right?" To actually believe that, you would have to be a a psychopath, you would have to be a a psychopath, you would have to be a a psychopath, you would have to have a very very very low would have to have a very very very low would have to have a very very very low value value value >> on I think human life. Yes. >> on I think human life. Yes. >> on I think human life. Yes. >> Right. [snorts] Imagine being the person >> Right. [snorts] Imagine being the person >> Right. [snorts] Imagine being the person who flips that coin and it comes up who flips that coin and it comes up who flips that coin and it comes up wrong.

wrong. wrong. >> Oh Jesus. Yeah. >> Oh Jesus. Yeah. >> Oh Jesus. Yeah. >> Like I'm a parent. >> Like I'm a parent. >> Like I'm a parent. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That like the idea that you would do >> That like the idea that you would do >> That like the idea that you would do something that's like 5149 on like your something that's like 5149 on like your something that's like 5149 on like your kid is, you know, doubly happy or your kid is, you know, doubly happy or your kid is, you know, doubly happy or your kid is gone. like you would never you kid is gone. like you would never you kid is gone. like you would never you you like you don't even want to say that you like you don't even want to say that you like you don't even want to say that out loud. out loud. out loud. >> Of course, I think that's how almost >> Of course, I think that's how almost >> Of course, I think that's how almost everybody thinks about it. And again, I everybody thinks about it. And again, I everybody thinks about it. And again, I think 5149 is obviously the most think 5149 is obviously the most think 5149 is obviously the most egregious example you could think of. egregious example you could think of. egregious example you could think of. And so SBF is very unsympathetic. But And so SBF is very unsympathetic. But And so SBF is very unsympathetic. But when I think about the super when I think about the super when I think about the super intelligence bet, a lot of people will intelligence bet, a lot of people will intelligence bet, a lot of people will characterize it as a 9010 bet, as an characterize it as a 9010 bet, as an characterize it as a 9010 bet, as an 8020 bet. And this question of how much 8020 bet. And this question of how much 8020 bet. And this question of how much is an acceptable amount of either is an acceptable amount of either is an acceptable amount of either extinction risk or total disempowerment extinction risk or total disempowerment extinction risk or total disempowerment risk. Um, you know, I think people have risk. Um, you know, I think people have risk. Um, you know, I think people have very different risk appetites and very different risk appetites and very different risk appetites and Silicon Valley is a place that has Silicon Valley is a place that has Silicon Valley is a place that has always prized their high risk appetite. always prized their high risk appetite. always prized their high risk appetite. I think that makes a lot more sense when I think that makes a lot more sense when I think that makes a lot more sense when you're talking about maybe yourself or you're talking about maybe yourself or you're talking about maybe yourself or your company full of people who have your company full of people who have your company full of people who have opted into taking a very high-risisk opted into taking a very high-risisk opted into taking a very high-risisk endeavor. I think that's extremely endeavor. I think that's extremely endeavor. I think that's extremely different obviously when you're talking different obviously when you're talking different obviously when you're talking about the rest of the world. And one about the rest of the world. And one about the rest of the world. And one thing with the data center debates that thing with the data center debates that thing with the data center debates that I'd always hear is like, you know, I get I'd always hear is like, you know, I get I'd always hear is like, you know, I get that these people are making this crazy that these people are making this crazy that these people are making this crazy bet on this technology. They think it's bet on this technology. They think it's bet on this technology. They think it's going to change the world, but why do going to change the world, but why do going to change the world, but why do they have to do it in our backyard? Why they have to do it in our backyard? Why they have to do it in our backyard? Why is Mark Zuckerberg not building a data is Mark Zuckerberg not building a data is Mark Zuckerberg not building a data center in his backyard? And so this center in his backyard? And so this center in his backyard? And so this question of yeah, you guys are going to question of yeah, you guys are going to question of yeah, you guys are going to create like these very tangible impacts create like these very tangible impacts create like these very tangible impacts and to their view harms on specific and to their view harms on specific and to their view harms on specific communities that are not the communities communities that are not the communities communities that are not the communities benefiting from this technology. At benefiting from this technology. At benefiting from this technology. At least they don't see the benefits yet.

least they don't see the benefits yet. least they don't see the benefits yet. They don't see the cancer cures. They They don't see the cancer cures. They They don't see the cancer cures. They don't see themselves getting these don't see themselves getting these don't see themselves getting these million dollar million dollar salaries million dollar million dollar salaries million dollar million dollar salaries that the AI researchers are getting. It that the AI researchers are getting. It that the AI researchers are getting. It feels like I think it feels to a lot of feels like I think it feels to a lot of feels like I think it feels to a lot of these folks like they are pawns in some these folks like they are pawns in some these folks like they are pawns in some tech billionaires' game and they do not tech billionaires' game and they do not tech billionaires' game and they do not like to feel that way. like to feel that way. like to feel that way. >> Why aren't they building it in their own >> Why aren't they building it in their own >> Why aren't they building it in their own backyards? Why don't you see a bunch of backyards? Why don't you see a bunch of backyards? Why don't you see a bunch of data centers in, you know, data centers in, you know, data centers in, you know, >> I mean, I don't >> I mean, I don't >> I mean, I don't >> Northern California. [laughter] >> Northern California. [laughter] >> Northern California. [laughter] >> I don't think I need to tell you why >> I don't think I need to tell you why >> I don't think I need to tell you why it's so hard to build in Northern it's so hard to build in Northern it's so hard to build in Northern California. California. California. >> But I I both I both think that's true >> But I I both I both think that's true >> But I I both I both think that's true that it's hard to build in Northern that it's hard to build in Northern that it's hard to build in Northern California. But I also think there's California. But I also think there's California. But I also think there's like a truth to the other thing being like a truth to the other thing being like a truth to the other thing being said they don't want them there. No, said they don't want them there. No, said they don't want them there. No, >> I mean the land is expensive. It would >> I mean the land is expensive. It would >> I mean the land is expensive. It would be very hard like and expensive to build be very hard like and expensive to build be very hard like and expensive to build a data center like the places we're a data center like the places we're a data center like the places we're we're talking about. we're talking about. we're talking about. >> But it also gets at a core truth which >> But it also gets at a core truth which >> But it also gets at a core truth which is people don't actually want data is people don't actually want data is people don't actually want data centers around them. It is a cost. It is centers around them. It is a cost. It is centers around them. It is a cost. It is a concentrated cost for a diffuse a concentrated cost for a diffuse a concentrated cost for a diffuse benefit. benefit. benefit. >> Like if you believe in the benefit. >> Like if you believe in the benefit. >> Like if you believe in the benefit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I think that's part of it. >> So I think that's part of it. >> So I think that's part of it. >> I want to go back to the first bucket >> I want to go back to the first bucket >> I want to go back to the first bucket you were talking about which is like the you were talking about which is like the you were talking about which is like the race dynamics. race dynamics. race dynamics. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. So, at the most generous, the thing that So, at the most generous, the thing that So, at the most generous, the thing that I've heard repeatedly is sort of what I've heard repeatedly is sort of what I've heard repeatedly is sort of what you're describing, which is it would be you're describing, which is it would be you're describing, which is it would be better if this were going slower, better if this were going slower, better if this were going slower, but I can't control that because I but I can't control that because I but I can't control that because I whether I'm at, you know, Anthropic or whether I'm at, you know, Anthropic or whether I'm at, you know, Anthropic or Open AI or Google or Meta, Open AI or Google or Meta, Open AI or Google or Meta, >> you know, if we slow down, it just is >> you know, if we slow down, it just is >> you know, if we slow down, it just is our less ethical competitors over there our less ethical competitors over there our less ethical competitors over there who speed up. And even if you put down who speed up. And even if you put down who speed up. And even if you put down legislation slowing down all of America, legislation slowing down all of America, legislation slowing down all of America, then it's China,

then it's China, then it's China, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You know, the CCP >> You know, the CCP >> You know, the CCP which is going to to win the race. which is going to to win the race. which is going to to win the race. >> I guess one question is, do you buy this >> I guess one question is, do you buy this >> I guess one question is, do you buy this central metaphor of a race that has a central metaphor of a race that has a central metaphor of a race that has a like a ticker tape line where at some like a ticker tape line where at some like a ticker tape line where at some point somebody passes it and then they point somebody passes it and then they point somebody passes it and then they have the recursive super intelligence have the recursive super intelligence have the recursive super intelligence and like the race is over? Or do you see and like the race is over? Or do you see and like the race is over? Or do you see this more as like most technologies like this more as like most technologies like this more as like most technologies like a kind of like a linear a kind of like a linear a kind of like a linear set of gains? I mean can be fast, can be set of gains? I mean can be fast, can be set of gains? I mean can be fast, can be slow, but that doesn't have that slow, but that doesn't have that slow, but that doesn't have that somebody is going to win dynamic. somebody is going to win dynamic. somebody is going to win dynamic. >> Yeah, I find this really confusing. One >> Yeah, I find this really confusing. One >> Yeah, I find this really confusing. One of the first things that I um did when I of the first things that I um did when I of the first things that I um did when I started reporting more deeply on AI was started reporting more deeply on AI was started reporting more deeply on AI was try to figure out what AGI meant because try to figure out what AGI meant because try to figure out what AGI meant because a lot of the way that this race has been a lot of the way that this race has been a lot of the way that this race has been characterized is who will build AGI characterized is who will build AGI characterized is who will build AGI first? who build artificial artificial first? who build artificial artificial first? who build artificial artificial general intelligence first. Um thing general intelligence first. Um thing general intelligence first. Um thing first thing I found no one agrees on first thing I found no one agrees on first thing I found no one agrees on what that means. Uh AGI means everything what that means. Uh AGI means everything what that means. Uh AGI means everything from techn AI that can build itself to from techn AI that can build itself to from techn AI that can build itself to AI that can do all human jobs to AI that AI that can do all human jobs to AI that AI that can do all human jobs to AI that produces whatever number of economic produces whatever number of economic produces whatever number of economic value. Um and so everyone has these value. Um and so everyone has these value. Um and so everyone has these different milestones for what different milestones for what different milestones for what constitutes AGI to them. What that also constitutes AGI to them. What that also constitutes AGI to them. What that also means is that the race has different means is that the race has different means is that the race has different finish lines and moving finish lines.

finish lines and moving finish lines. finish lines and moving finish lines. And I think that like you see the way And I think that like you see the way And I think that like you see the way that these uh models perform differently that these uh models perform differently that these uh models perform differently on benchmarks. They are extremely on benchmarks. They are extremely on benchmarks. They are extremely jagged. They can be super good at math jagged. They can be super good at math jagged. They can be super good at math and they can be super bad at poker at and they can be super bad at poker at and they can be super bad at poker at the same time. Um they can be yeah the same time. Um they can be yeah the same time. Um they can be yeah amazing at cracking cyber security amazing at cracking cyber security amazing at cracking cyber security problems but not able to build anything problems but not able to build anything problems but not able to build anything in the physical world. And because of in the physical world. And because of in the physical world. And because of that I don't think that technology is a that I don't think that technology is a that I don't think that technology is a as general as people suggest it is. I as general as people suggest it is. I as general as people suggest it is. I also think that means that it is much also think that means that it is much also think that means that it is much harder to define a finish line to the harder to define a finish line to the harder to define a finish line to the race and my sense is that the race race and my sense is that the race race and my sense is that the race because you cannot adjudicate it, because you cannot adjudicate it, because you cannot adjudicate it, everyone will always feel that they are everyone will always feel that they are everyone will always feel that they are falling behind on some dimension. I mean falling behind on some dimension. I mean falling behind on some dimension. I mean to then make the case for that these AI to then make the case for that these AI to then make the case for that these AI companies are making is they do believe companies are making is they do believe companies are making is they do believe in this recursive self-improvement. They in this recursive self-improvement. They in this recursive self-improvement. They think that you know OpenAI, Google, deep think that you know OpenAI, Google, deep think that you know OpenAI, Google, deep mind and anthropic are all extremely mind and anthropic are all extremely mind and anthropic are all extremely focused specifically on the question of focused specifically on the question of focused specifically on the question of can we build AI that builds itself? Can can we build AI that builds itself? Can can we build AI that builds itself? Can we build an AI that can train the next we build an AI that can train the next we build an AI that can train the next generation model completely from scratch generation model completely from scratch generation model completely from scratch on its own? And in that sense, you get on its own? And in that sense, you get on its own? And in that sense, you get an exponential pace of improvement for an exponential pace of improvement for an exponential pace of improvement for whoever can hit that recursive whoever can hit that recursive whoever can hit that recursive self-improvement curve first. And they self-improvement curve first. And they self-improvement curve first. And they think that this might lead to that think that this might lead to that think that this might lead to that company pulling ahead. Right now, folks company pulling ahead. Right now, folks company pulling ahead. Right now, folks think that it's anthropic, which has the think that it's anthropic, which has the think that it's anthropic, which has the best coding models, meaning they can best coding models, meaning they can best coding models, meaning they can code faster, meaning that their next code faster, meaning that their next code faster, meaning that their next models are even better.

models are even better. models are even better. I can see where that argument is, but I can see where that argument is, but I can see where that argument is, but I'm not sure when we look at, you know, I'm not sure when we look at, you know, I'm not sure when we look at, you know, the latest anthropic models versus the the latest anthropic models versus the the latest anthropic models versus the latest open AAI models versus the latest open AAI models versus the latest open AAI models versus the latest, you know, Chinese open weights latest, you know, Chinese open weights latest, you know, Chinese open weights models that we see a company pulling models that we see a company pulling models that we see a company pulling ahead that decisively in that way, ahead that decisively in that way, ahead that decisively in that way, especially when every single company in especially when every single company in especially when every single company in lab is using the same recursive lab is using the same recursive lab is using the same recursive self-improvement strategy. And so, self-improvement strategy. And so, self-improvement strategy. And so, basically, I don't know that the race basically, I don't know that the race basically, I don't know that the race has a finish line. And that's what has a finish line. And that's what has a finish line. And that's what worries me about it continuing. worries me about it continuing. worries me about it continuing. >> The reason I want to focus in on this >> The reason I want to focus in on this >> The reason I want to focus in on this race metaphor for a minute is I've come race metaphor for a minute is I've come race metaphor for a minute is I've come to think it is really one of the central to think it is really one of the central to think it is really one of the central dividing lines in how you think about dividing lines in how you think about dividing lines in how you think about different kinds of AI policy. different kinds of AI policy. different kinds of AI policy. >> Whether you think that we are in a race >> Whether you think that we are in a race >> Whether you think that we are in a race with China to get to the point where one with China to get to the point where one with China to get to the point where one side or the other is going to pull like side or the other is going to pull like side or the other is going to pull like endlessly and decisively ahead because endlessly and decisively ahead because endlessly and decisively ahead because they hit that, you know, recursive they hit that, you know, recursive they hit that, you know, recursive self-improving level. self-improving level. self-improving level. Well, then that means what you do in the Well, then that means what you do in the Well, then that means what you do in the next 1 to 3 years is incredibly next 1 to 3 years is incredibly next 1 to 3 years is incredibly incredibly definitionally important.

incredibly definitionally important. incredibly definitionally important. [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] >> But if you don't believe that, if you >> But if you don't believe that, if you >> But if you don't believe that, if you believe something more like yes, this is believe something more like yes, this is believe something more like yes, this is a powerful technology. It's a powerful a powerful technology. It's a powerful a powerful technology. It's a powerful technology that might have a lot of technology that might have a lot of technology that might have a lot of downsides, might come with a lot of downsides, might come with a lot of downsides, might come with a lot of social instability. social instability. social instability. Um, its effect on a society may not be Um, its effect on a society may not be Um, its effect on a society may not be good. then good. then good. then let's run faster to the bad place is not let's run faster to the bad place is not let's run faster to the bad place is not nearly as compelling an argument. And nearly as compelling an argument. And nearly as compelling an argument. And all of a sudden the idea that we should all of a sudden the idea that we should all of a sudden the idea that we should have policy in place that slows things have policy in place that slows things have policy in place that slows things down for more voice for more down for more voice for more down for more voice for more consideration. consideration. consideration. It's not crazy. And I guess one place It's not crazy. And I guess one place It's not crazy. And I guess one place this goes is that I have begun to notice this goes is that I have begun to notice this goes is that I have begun to notice like a really interesting convergence like a really interesting convergence like a really interesting convergence between the SFAI safety people between the SFAI safety people between the SFAI safety people >> in a way and like the AI populace like a >> in a way and like the AI populace like a >> in a way and like the AI populace like a Bernie Sanders or in a different way Bernie Sanders or in a different way Bernie Sanders or in a different way Abdul Alad Abdul Alad Abdul Alad >> who are getting to not that different >> who are getting to not that different >> who are getting to not that different places but through very very different places but through very very different places but through very very different mechanisms right they're like the AI mechanisms right they're like the AI mechanisms right they're like the AI safety people who actually believe we safety people who actually believe we safety people who actually believe we are in a race are in a race are in a race >> but they believe that winning that race >> but they believe that winning that race >> but they believe that winning that race might bring the end of humanity Right.

might bring the end of humanity Right. might bring the end of humanity Right. >> And so like they don't they don't want >> And so like they don't they don't want >> And so like they don't they don't want to move that fast, right? If we began to to move that fast, right? If we began to to move that fast, right? If we began to slow down, we would have more slow down, we would have more slow down, we would have more credibility for negotiating with China credibility for negotiating with China credibility for negotiating with China and like trying to come up with like and like trying to come up with like and like trying to come up with like international treaties and all the rest international treaties and all the rest international treaties and all the rest of it, you know? And then you have like of it, you know? And then you have like of it, you know? And then you have like the kind of more AI populous side who the kind of more AI populous side who the kind of more AI populous side who just like doesn't want to give all these just like doesn't want to give all these just like doesn't want to give all these tech billionaires all this power, who tech billionaires all this power, who tech billionaires all this power, who doesn't believe this technology will be doesn't believe this technology will be doesn't believe this technology will be good for people, and they're starting to good for people, and they're starting to good for people, and they're starting to come up with like maybe not the policies come up with like maybe not the policies come up with like maybe not the policies AI safety people would, but you know, AI safety people would, but you know, AI safety people would, but you know, data center moratoriums and things like data center moratoriums and things like data center moratoriums and things like that. that. that. And so you have this sort of slightly And so you have this sort of slightly And so you have this sort of slightly strange strange strange like you would not have considered this like you would not have considered this like you would not have considered this coalition. coalition. coalition. >> It's super interesting. I mean you >> It's super interesting. I mean you >> It's super interesting. I mean you literally have Ronda Santis doing AI literally have Ronda Santis doing AI literally have Ronda Santis doing AI roundts with Max Tegmark who's been one roundts with Max Tegmark who's been one roundts with Max Tegmark who's been one of the leading advocates of pausing and of the leading advocates of pausing and of the leading advocates of pausing and slowing down AI, an MIT professor, and slowing down AI, an MIT professor, and slowing down AI, an MIT professor, and you have Bernie Sanders doing viral you have Bernie Sanders doing viral you have Bernie Sanders doing viral videos with Eleazar Yudkowski. Um the videos with Eleazar Yudkowski. Um the videos with Eleazar Yudkowski. Um the guy who's telling us that AI is probably guy who's telling us that AI is probably guy who's telling us that AI is probably going to kill us all if we build it. Um, going to kill us all if we build it. Um, going to kill us all if we build it. Um, I was talking I was talking I was talking >> just both in lines and doesn't and does >> just both in lines and doesn't and does >> just both in lines and doesn't and does kind of makes it, you know what I mean? kind of makes it, you know what I mean? kind of makes it, you know what I mean? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah, totally. I've been spending some >> Yeah, totally. I've been spending some >> Yeah, totally. I've been spending some time in DC this year to talk to some of time in DC this year to talk to some of time in DC this year to talk to some of these AI populists, some from the social these AI populists, some from the social these AI populists, some from the social conservative right, others from say the conservative right, others from say the conservative right, others from say the labor left. And um, this Bannon guy I labor left. And um, this Bannon guy I labor left. And um, this Bannon guy I was talking to told me he's like, you was talking to told me he's like, you was talking to told me he's like, you know, like I wouldn't send my kids over know, like I wouldn't send my kids over know, like I wouldn't send my kids over to a playday at the polycule, but I can to a playday at the polycule, but I can to a playday at the polycule, but I can do coalitions. And so I think it's been do coalitions. And so I think it's been do coalitions. And so I think it's been one of the most interesting uh, one of the most interesting uh, one of the most interesting uh, political stories going on right now is political stories going on right now is political stories going on right now is the sort of strange bedfellows that have the sort of strange bedfellows that have the sort of strange bedfellows that have emerged. I mean, even with the data emerged. I mean, even with the data emerged. I mean, even with the data center stuff, I was talking to an center stuff, I was talking to an center stuff, I was talking to an activist and they were saying these were activist and they were saying these were activist and they were saying these were liberal women who had gotten into liberal women who had gotten into liberal women who had gotten into politics after the 2016 election of politics after the 2016 election of politics after the 2016 election of Donald Trump. They said that data Donald Trump. They said that data Donald Trump. They said that data centers were the first thing that got centers were the first thing that got centers were the first thing that got them to talk productively with their

them to talk productively with their them to talk productively with their Trump voting neighbors about politics, Trump voting neighbors about politics, Trump voting neighbors about politics, the first thing in like 10 years almost, the first thing in like 10 years almost, the first thing in like 10 years almost, which is fascinating to me. And in this which is fascinating to me. And in this which is fascinating to me. And in this sense, they felt a really strong sense sense, they felt a really strong sense sense, they felt a really strong sense almost of uh political agency that almost of uh political agency that almost of uh political agency that almost came out of this fight. Um, so I, almost came out of this fight. Um, so I, almost came out of this fight. Um, so I, yeah, I think one of the big questions yeah, I think one of the big questions yeah, I think one of the big questions that folks in AI safety, for example, that folks in AI safety, for example, that folks in AI safety, for example, are thinking about is, do we want to are thinking about is, do we want to are thinking about is, do we want to build these alliances with the rising build these alliances with the rising build these alliances with the rising left and right populist waves in left and right populist waves in left and right populist waves in American culture in order to slow AI American culture in order to slow AI American culture in order to slow AI down? Maybe it's okay that we have down? Maybe it's okay that we have down? Maybe it's okay that we have different reasons and different theories different reasons and different theories different reasons and different theories for why AI is so dangerous. For one for why AI is so dangerous. For one for why AI is so dangerous. For one person, is big model bad. For another person, is big model bad. For another person, is big model bad. For another person, it's big billionaires bad, big person, it's big billionaires bad, big person, it's big billionaires bad, big tech bad. Um and those folks are sort of tech bad. Um and those folks are sort of tech bad. Um and those folks are sort of linking arms in a lot of ways against uh linking arms in a lot of ways against uh linking arms in a lot of ways against uh the AI accelerationists and sort of the the AI accelerationists and sort of the the AI accelerationists and sort of the folks pushing the race faster. So I folks pushing the race faster. So I folks pushing the race faster. So I think it listening to this we've been think it listening to this we've been think it listening to this we've been sort of living in the data center sort of living in the data center sort of living in the data center moratorum side of the politics. moratorum side of the politics. moratorum side of the politics. But what's the other side of it? What But what's the other side of it? What But what's the other side of it? What are the problems with just saying okay are the problems with just saying okay are the problems with just saying okay fine like let's not build any more data fine like let's not build any more data fine like let's not build any more data centers?

centers? centers? one like this is not actually the way one like this is not actually the way one like this is not actually the way that you would successfully slow down AI that you would successfully slow down AI that you would successfully slow down AI if that's what you really wanted. Um one if that's what you really wanted. Um one if that's what you really wanted. Um one if you if one locality or one state if you if one locality or one state if you if one locality or one state imposes a moratorum AI companies are imposes a moratorum AI companies are imposes a moratorum AI companies are very very happy to go to other states or very very happy to go to other states or very very happy to go to other states or other countries. They are already other countries. They are already other countries. They are already flooding into Texas for example because flooding into Texas for example because flooding into Texas for example because it's had such a pro data center it's had such a pro data center it's had such a pro data center environment. People are looking at environment. People are looking at environment. People are looking at Louisiana, the Dakotas, Australia. Um, Louisiana, the Dakotas, Australia. Um, Louisiana, the Dakotas, Australia. Um, space of course is a current big space of course is a current big space of course is a current big interest of Elon Musk's because people interest of Elon Musk's because people interest of Elon Musk's because people think that maybe not now but in five think that maybe not now but in five think that maybe not now but in five years we can just put all the data years we can just put all the data years we can just put all the data centers in space and solve the political centers in space and solve the political centers in space and solve the political problems that way. So one is I'm not problems that way. So one is I'm not problems that way. So one is I'm not really sure that this would stop AI really sure that this would stop AI really sure that this would stop AI progress that much. It would just shift progress that much. It would just shift progress that much. It would just shift the data centers to other places that do the data centers to other places that do the data centers to other places that do welcome them. Um the second thing is I welcome them. Um the second thing is I welcome them. Um the second thing is I actually do think that there are ways actually do think that there are ways actually do think that there are ways for these deals to be good. Not every for these deals to be good. Not every for these deals to be good. Not every community should want to data center. I community should want to data center. I community should want to data center. I think that many of them may discuss it think that many of them may discuss it think that many of them may discuss it and say this isn't what we want. We and say this isn't what we want. We and say this isn't what we want. We don't need the tax revenue that bad. But don't need the tax revenue that bad. But don't need the tax revenue that bad. But in a lot of the cases with these sites in a lot of the cases with these sites in a lot of the cases with these sites that I visited like you know in the old that I visited like you know in the old that I visited like you know in the old GM site in Jainsville, the Vidian GM site in Jainsville, the Vidian GM site in Jainsville, the Vidian Partners, the data center developer was Partners, the data center developer was Partners, the data center developer was going to clean that brownfield up. They going to clean that brownfield up. They going to clean that brownfield up. They were the only ones willing to do so. I were the only ones willing to do so. I were the only ones willing to do so. I talked to a real estate broker who had talked to a real estate broker who had talked to a real estate broker who had tried to sell the site for 5 years and tried to sell the site for 5 years and tried to sell the site for 5 years and he couldn't do it because not a single he couldn't do it because not a single he couldn't do it because not a single other commercial buyer wanted to clean other commercial buyer wanted to clean other commercial buyer wanted to clean up all of this hazardous waste. Only the up all of this hazardous waste. Only the up all of this hazardous waste. Only the data centers were willing to do that. Or data centers were willing to do that. Or data centers were willing to do that. Or with Mount Pleasanton, the Foxcon site, with Mount Pleasanton, the Foxcon site, with Mount Pleasanton, the Foxcon site, right? They had already cleared all this right? They had already cleared all this right? They had already cleared all this land. They had built all this land. They had built all this land. They had built all this infrastructure. Putting a data center infrastructure. Putting a data center infrastructure. Putting a data center there was a net improvement for the

there was a net improvement for the there was a net improvement for the community most in my opinion personally community most in my opinion personally community most in my opinion personally from an economic perspective, from the from an economic perspective, from the from an economic perspective, from the perspective of there was nothing going perspective of there was nothing going perspective of there was nothing going on there anyway. Um, so I think that on there anyway. Um, so I think that on there anyway. Um, so I think that there are ways to do these deals, right? there are ways to do these deals, right? there are ways to do these deals, right? There is enough money in this industry There is enough money in this industry There is enough money in this industry that a lot of communities will decide it that a lot of communities will decide it that a lot of communities will decide it is economically beneficial for them to is economically beneficial for them to is economically beneficial for them to bring in these jobs and bring in this bring in these jobs and bring in this bring in these jobs and bring in this investment. But I think that the way investment. But I think that the way investment. But I think that the way that the data center deals have been that the data center deals have been that the data center deals have been done nearly guarantee the amount of done nearly guarantee the amount of done nearly guarantee the amount of public backlash that there's been. And public backlash that there's been. And public backlash that there's been. And the thing that will probably fix it, I the thing that will probably fix it, I the thing that will probably fix it, I suspect, is probably um either like a suspect, is probably um either like a suspect, is probably um either like a state level streamlining where someone state level streamlining where someone state level streamlining where someone does the research probably at the state does the research probably at the state does the research probably at the state level, maybe at the federal level to level, maybe at the federal level to level, maybe at the federal level to figure out what is the fair way to do figure out what is the fair way to do figure out what is the fair way to do these deals. How do we ensure the these deals. How do we ensure the these deals. How do we ensure the communities get the most transparency, communities get the most transparency, communities get the most transparency, the most benefit out of data center the most benefit out of data center the most benefit out of data center deals when they happen? So it's not case deals when they happen? So it's not case deals when they happen? So it's not case by case and it's not so asymmetric with by case and it's not so asymmetric with by case and it's not so asymmetric with a town of 12,000 negotiating with an a town of 12,000 negotiating with an a town of 12,000 negotiating with an open AI or whatever. open AI or whatever. open AI or whatever. >> I would add two other things to that >> I would add two other things to that >> I would add two other things to that that I'd be curious to hear your take that I'd be curious to hear your take that I'd be curious to hear your take on. So one you mentioned data centers on. So one you mentioned data centers on. So one you mentioned data centers moving towards other localities and moving towards other localities and moving towards other localities and those localities are not randomly those localities are not randomly those localities are not randomly selected. They're localities that are selected. They're localities that are selected. They're localities that are going to impose fewer conditions. So going to impose fewer conditions. So going to impose fewer conditions. So maybe that is fewer environmental maybe that is fewer environmental maybe that is fewer environmental conditions but you know in the case of conditions but you know in the case of conditions but you know in the case of maybe a UAE or some of the Gulf states maybe a UAE or some of the Gulf states maybe a UAE or some of the Gulf states that are interested here you know you're that are interested here you know you're that are interested here you know you're looking at more authoritarian countries looking at more authoritarian countries looking at more authoritarian countries right so I've heard a lot of people right so I've heard a lot of people right so I've heard a lot of people worry about that or you know Elon Musk worry about that or you know Elon Musk worry about that or you know Elon Musk in space. Uh so in a sense if you make in space. Uh so in a sense if you make in space. Uh so in a sense if you make it so the data centers cannot go into it so the data centers cannot go into it so the data centers cannot go into places where there is more democratic places where there is more democratic places where there is more democratic control they might you might end up with control they might you might end up with control they might you might end up with less overall democratic control. The less overall democratic control. The less overall democratic control. The other thing and and I do think this is other thing and and I do think this is other thing and and I do think this is significant is that there is right now significant is that there is right now significant is that there is right now more demand

more demand more demand >> for compute than there is compute. >> for compute than there is compute. >> for compute than there is compute. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know people talk a lot about a >> You know people talk a lot about a >> You know people talk a lot about a bubble but we do not look to have excess bubble but we do not look to have excess bubble but we do not look to have excess AI supply at the moment. Mhm. AI supply at the moment. Mhm. AI supply at the moment. Mhm. >> And if demand keeps rising because you >> And if demand keeps rising because you >> And if demand keeps rising because you know the coding agents get better and know the coding agents get better and know the coding agents get better and all the rest of the things we know that all the rest of the things we know that all the rest of the things we know that are happening but you are constricting are happening but you are constricting are happening but you are constricting the supply of compute the supply of compute the supply of compute then you end up with more inequality and then you end up with more inequality and then you end up with more inequality and who can afford it. So you know a Goldman who can afford it. So you know a Goldman who can afford it. So you know a Goldman Sachs a JP Morgan right so you know a Sachs a JP Morgan right so you know a Sachs a JP Morgan right so you know a company with a lot of money to buy company with a lot of money to buy company with a lot of money to buy compute is going to have a lot of it and compute is going to have a lot of it and compute is going to have a lot of it and then you know ordinary users small then you know ordinary users small then you know ordinary users small businesses etc. If you believe AI is businesses etc. If you believe AI is businesses etc. If you believe AI is important and powerful and I believe it important and powerful and I believe it important and powerful and I believe it is important and powerful then you have is important and powerful then you have is important and powerful then you have a problem where you have created much a problem where you have created much a problem where you have created much more stratification and who can afford more stratification and who can afford more stratification and who can afford it. How do you think about those it. How do you think about those it. How do you think about those dimensions of it? dimensions of it? dimensions of it? I think with where you build the data I think with where you build the data I think with where you build the data centers, a lot of folks are starting to centers, a lot of folks are starting to centers, a lot of folks are starting to look at building AI infrastructure as a look at building AI infrastructure as a look at building AI infrastructure as a form of geopolitical leverage, right? form of geopolitical leverage, right? form of geopolitical leverage, right? And so some countries like places like And so some countries like places like And so some countries like places like Australia, Canada, um countries in Australia, Canada, um countries in Australia, Canada, um countries in Europe are thinking actually maybe the Europe are thinking actually maybe the Europe are thinking actually maybe the way for us to get a slice of Frontier way for us to get a slice of Frontier way for us to get a slice of Frontier AI, for us to negotiate with uh the AI, for us to negotiate with uh the AI, for us to negotiate with uh the countries where the best AI is being countries where the best AI is being countries where the best AI is being developed like the US for in cases like developed like the US for in cases like developed like the US for in cases like cyber security access um is to say, you cyber security access um is to say, you cyber security access um is to say, you know, we'll build your data centers know, we'll build your data centers know, we'll build your data centers here. will actually welcome you in and here. will actually welcome you in and here. will actually welcome you in and in return uh maybe you guarantee us in return uh maybe you guarantee us in return uh maybe you guarantee us access to the frontier models. Um so I access to the frontier models. Um so I access to the frontier models. Um so I think that one is that we should look at think that one is that we should look at think that one is that we should look at a AI infrastructure as a point of a AI infrastructure as a point of a AI infrastructure as a point of leverage um that both states and

leverage um that both states and leverage um that both states and countries have and as you mentioned if countries have and as you mentioned if countries have and as you mentioned if local moratoriums in the US if domestic local moratoriums in the US if domestic local moratoriums in the US if domestic moratoriums or something like that lead moratoriums or something like that lead moratoriums or something like that lead to giving that leverage and negotiating to giving that leverage and negotiating to giving that leverage and negotiating power to authoritarian states that's power to authoritarian states that's power to authoritarian states that's probably something the US should be probably something the US should be probably something the US should be really worried about. On the other hand, really worried about. On the other hand, really worried about. On the other hand, there are folks like um Anton light at there are folks like um Anton light at there are folks like um Anton light at Carnegie has done work on this where Carnegie has done work on this where Carnegie has done work on this where it's can we give our allies, can we give it's can we give our allies, can we give it's can we give our allies, can we give our democratic allies um negotiating our democratic allies um negotiating our democratic allies um negotiating leverage through them building out leverage through them building out leverage through them building out compute. The second thing that you compute. The second thing that you compute. The second thing that you mentioned about pricing is interesting mentioned about pricing is interesting mentioned about pricing is interesting because I do think one of the big macro because I do think one of the big macro because I do think one of the big macro trends in AI right now is the closing of trends in AI right now is the closing of trends in AI right now is the closing of the frontier. It's the fact that the the frontier. It's the fact that the the frontier. It's the fact that the very best models like mythos from very best models like mythos from very best models like mythos from anthropic are not being open to anthropic are not being open to anthropic are not being open to everybody. That is both a safety everybody. That is both a safety everybody. That is both a safety decision as in we don't want to give decision as in we don't want to give decision as in we don't want to give really powerful cyber weapons and really powerful cyber weapons and really powerful cyber weapons and bioweapons to a bunch of bad actors or bioweapons to a bunch of bad actors or bioweapons to a bunch of bad actors or just unknown actors. It is also a just unknown actors. It is also a just unknown actors. It is also a pricing question of the best models are pricing question of the best models are pricing question of the best models are really really expensive to run. They really really expensive to run. They really really expensive to run. They don't have enough compute to run them.

don't have enough compute to run them. don't have enough compute to run them. And so we're going to have to charge a And so we're going to have to charge a And so we're going to have to charge a lot of money or only give it to the lot of money or only give it to the lot of money or only give it to the biggest corporations. And I think that's biggest corporations. And I think that's biggest corporations. And I think that's a reason that startups are worried uh a reason that startups are worried uh a reason that startups are worried uh that countries outside of the US are that countries outside of the US are that countries outside of the US are worried that normal people are worried worried that normal people are worried worried that normal people are worried maybe we get super intelligence and I maybe we get super intelligence and I maybe we get super intelligence and I can achieve all these amazing things but can achieve all these amazing things but can achieve all these amazing things but I'm not going to get it. Maybe my boss I'm not going to get it. Maybe my boss I'm not going to get it. Maybe my boss is going to get the super intelligence is going to get the super intelligence is going to get the super intelligence and they're going to automate my job but and they're going to automate my job but and they're going to automate my job but as a worker as a consumer I'm not going as a worker as a consumer I'm not going as a worker as a consumer I'm not going to be able to do the same thing. So I to be able to do the same thing. So I to be able to do the same thing. So I think it's also a really good point that think it's also a really good point that think it's also a really good point that if we don't continue the compute if we don't continue the compute if we don't continue the compute buildout, we do see a world where it is buildout, we do see a world where it is buildout, we do see a world where it is the folks with existing capital and the folks with existing capital and the folks with existing capital and access probably big corporations in the access probably big corporations in the access probably big corporations in the US and the US government that are going US and the US government that are going US and the US government that are going to have access to Frontier AI and all to have access to Frontier AI and all to have access to Frontier AI and all the benefits that it confers. the benefits that it confers. the benefits that it confers. >> You were in China for a trip reporting >> You were in China for a trip reporting >> You were in China for a trip reporting on AI. Was there much political AI on AI. Was there much political AI on AI. Was there much political AI backlash and ferment there from what you backlash and ferment there from what you backlash and ferment there from what you could see? I was super interested in could see? I was super interested in could see? I was super interested in this question on this trip because I was this question on this trip because I was this question on this trip because I was finishing my times piece on the finishing my times piece on the finishing my times piece on the permanent underclass while in China. And permanent underclass while in China. And permanent underclass while in China. And so I was basically asking everyone I met so I was basically asking everyone I met so I was basically asking everyone I met there, whether it was engineers at the there, whether it was engineers at the there, whether it was engineers at the labs or just my family members or sort labs or just my family members or sort labs or just my family members or sort of normal middle- class people in of normal middle- class people in of normal middle- class people in Shanghai. Um, are people worried about Shanghai. Um, are people worried about Shanghai. Um, are people worried about AI and jobs? Um, are people worried AI and jobs? Um, are people worried AI and jobs? Um, are people worried about AI and social instability? Um, I about AI and social instability? Um, I about AI and social instability? Um, I think the answer is not as much. I think the answer is not as much. I think the answer is not as much. I caveat this of course with the fact that caveat this of course with the fact that caveat this of course with the fact that the information environment in China is the information environment in China is the information environment in China is obviously suppressed. you can't uh obviously suppressed. you can't uh obviously suppressed. you can't uh dissent um in public on social media dissent um in public on social media dissent um in public on social media nearly as much as you can in the US. You nearly as much as you can in the US. You nearly as much as you can in the US. You don't have good polling. So, it's kind don't have good polling. So, it's kind don't have good polling. So, it's kind of hard to understand the actual level of hard to understand the actual level of hard to understand the actual level of social discontent there is in China.

of social discontent there is in China. of social discontent there is in China. But I would say that for the most part, But I would say that for the most part, But I would say that for the most part, people were not as terrified of AI as people were not as terrified of AI as people were not as terrified of AI as they are in the US. Um there's a few they are in the US. Um there's a few they are in the US. Um there's a few explanations for this. Some people say explanations for this. Some people say explanations for this. Some people say that China is more technoptimistic than that China is more technoptimistic than that China is more technoptimistic than the US is. I don't love this explanation the US is. I don't love this explanation the US is. I don't love this explanation mostly because the thing that I heard mostly because the thing that I heard mostly because the thing that I heard was not exactly optimism. It was not was not exactly optimism. It was not was not exactly optimism. It was not exactly, yeah, we're going to get the exactly, yeah, we're going to get the exactly, yeah, we're going to get the cancer cures and the super abundance. It cancer cures and the super abundance. It cancer cures and the super abundance. It was something a lot closer to was something a lot closer to was something a lot closer to technology is a force that cannot be technology is a force that cannot be technology is a force that cannot be stopped. It actually in some ways stopped. It actually in some ways stopped. It actually in some ways reminded me more of some of these reminded me more of some of these reminded me more of some of these Silicon Valley beliefs that the future Silicon Valley beliefs that the future Silicon Valley beliefs that the future is predetermined that when the state is predetermined that when the state is predetermined that when the state decides that something like AI is a decides that something like AI is a decides that something like AI is a national priority that is going to march national priority that is going to march national priority that is going to march forward and as an individual there's not forward and as an individual there's not forward and as an individual there's not much you can do to resist especially in much you can do to resist especially in much you can do to resist especially in a one party state in a authoritarian a one party state in a authoritarian a one party state in a authoritarian society there is no culture of society there is no culture of society there is no culture of resistance really and so rather than resistance really and so rather than resistance really and so rather than thinking about how do I prevent AI in my thinking about how do I prevent AI in my thinking about how do I prevent AI in my workplace or in the world that's not workplace or in the world that's not workplace or in the world that's not really a thing that a lot of people in really a thing that a lot of people in really a thing that a lot of people in China think about it's how can I use AI China think about it's how can I use AI China think about it's how can I use AI to make sure I don't fall behind. in an to make sure I don't fall behind. in an to make sure I don't fall behind. in an environment that already has crazy environment that already has crazy environment that already has crazy levels of white collar competition and levels of white collar competition and levels of white collar competition and white collar unemployment. If you're if white collar unemployment. If you're if white collar unemployment. If you're if you're not upskilling yourself with, you you're not upskilling yourself with, you you're not upskilling yourself with, you know, open claw or whatever, there's a know, open claw or whatever, there's a know, open claw or whatever, there's a million people in line behind you who million people in line behind you who million people in line behind you who are going to get on the bus. At the same are going to get on the bus. At the same are going to get on the bus. At the same time, I think that the Chinese state time, I think that the Chinese state time, I think that the Chinese state takes a pretty different approach to the takes a pretty different approach to the takes a pretty different approach to the US. Um, when it comes to AI regulation US. Um, when it comes to AI regulation US. Um, when it comes to AI regulation and also to technology regulation in and also to technology regulation in and also to technology regulation in general. And so, uh, China has passed general. And so, uh, China has passed general. And so, uh, China has passed laws sort of banning a lot of kinds of laws sort of banning a lot of kinds of laws sort of banning a lot of kinds of companion chat bots because they're companion chat bots because they're companion chat bots because they're worried about relationships. They're worried about relationships. They're worried about relationships. They're worried about fertility rates. um worried about fertility rates. um worried about fertility rates. um they're worried about addiction. Uh they're worried about addiction. Uh they're worried about addiction. Uh China has passed uh made court rulings China has passed uh made court rulings China has passed uh made court rulings that say that AI replaced this worker's

that say that AI replaced this worker's that say that AI replaced this worker's job. AI can do this worker's job is not job. AI can do this worker's job is not job. AI can do this worker's job is not a good enough reason to lay off a a good enough reason to lay off a a good enough reason to lay off a worker. Um you have regulations that worker. Um you have regulations that worker. Um you have regulations that require all AI generated images to be require all AI generated images to be require all AI generated images to be labeled and you'll see the made with AI labeled and you'll see the made with AI labeled and you'll see the made with AI sort of language on all of the AI made sort of language on all of the AI made sort of language on all of the AI made ads in China. And so there's also a ads in China. And so there's also a ads in China. And so there's also a sense that some people, some Chinese sense that some people, some Chinese sense that some people, some Chinese have that their government is more have that their government is more have that their government is more likely to look out for sort of the likely to look out for sort of the likely to look out for sort of the social downsides and the labor downsides social downsides and the labor downsides social downsides and the labor downsides relative to the US government which has relative to the US government which has relative to the US government which has thus far been pretty less a fair thus far been pretty less a fair thus far been pretty less a fair especially at the national level. Right. especially at the national level. Right. especially at the national level. Right. And that gives some people a bit of And that gives some people a bit of And that gives some people a bit of soulless as well. soulless as well. soulless as well. >> There's been some reporting that China >> There's been some reporting that China >> There's been some reporting that China and Russia are pushing sort of anti-data and Russia are pushing sort of anti-data and Russia are pushing sort of anti-data center oh yeah center oh yeah center oh yeah >> memes and you know social media bots. Uh >> memes and you know social media bots. Uh >> memes and you know social media bots. Uh it's hard for me to tell what scale that it's hard for me to tell what scale that it's hard for me to tell what scale that is, but it has been very much picked up is, but it has been very much picked up is, but it has been very much picked up on by like people like Kevin Olri the on by like people like Kevin Olri the on by like people like Kevin Olri the for the Shark Tank guy who's you know for the Shark Tank guy who's you know for the Shark Tank guy who's you know big data center project has faced a lot big data center project has faced a lot big data center project has faced a lot of backlash. of backlash. of backlash. >> Do you buy the the sort of growing view >> Do you buy the the sort of growing view >> Do you buy the the sort of growing view among like at least some tech elite that among like at least some tech elite that among like at least some tech elite that the data center backlash is like a the data center backlash is like a the data center backlash is like a Chinese scop?

Chinese scop? Chinese scop? >> I think this is ridiculous to be honest. >> I think this is ridiculous to be honest. >> I think this is ridiculous to be honest. I mean, so I read the OpenAI report that I mean, so I read the OpenAI report that I mean, so I read the OpenAI report that was saying like this is all a CCP plot was saying like this is all a CCP plot was saying like this is all a CCP plot and like it pastes in the accounts and and like it pastes in the accounts and and like it pastes in the accounts and the tweets that are doing the SCOP. the tweets that are doing the SCOP. the tweets that are doing the SCOP. These tweets have like no likes on them. These tweets have like no likes on them. These tweets have like no likes on them. They have two views per tweet. So I'm They have two views per tweet. So I'm They have two views per tweet. So I'm not doubting that. Like I'm sure some not doubting that. Like I'm sure some not doubting that. Like I'm sure some clever CCP propaganda person has clever CCP propaganda person has clever CCP propaganda person has attempted to inflame the anti-data attempted to inflame the anti-data attempted to inflame the anti-data center sentiment. I have not seen center sentiment. I have not seen center sentiment. I have not seen evidence that any of this is working. I evidence that any of this is working. I evidence that any of this is working. I think it feels very organic. I think I think it feels very organic. I think I think it feels very organic. I think I also tend to be personally a little also tend to be personally a little also tend to be personally a little suspicious when you just castle your suspicious when you just castle your suspicious when you just castle your political opponents as being political opponents as being political opponents as being misinformed. I think there's a way in misinformed. I think there's a way in misinformed. I think there's a way in which people use foreign influence to which people use foreign influence to which people use foreign influence to avoid thinking about the fact that there avoid thinking about the fact that there avoid thinking about the fact that there are people that they live with in are people that they live with in are people that they live with in society who do not agree with their society who do not agree with their society who do not agree with their vision of the world. And when I talk to vision of the world. And when I talk to vision of the world. And when I talk to these uh data center activists for these uh data center activists for these uh data center activists for example, they are actually much less Tik example, they are actually much less Tik example, they are actually much less Tik Tok adult and misinformed than I think Tok adult and misinformed than I think Tok adult and misinformed than I think people like to caricature. A lot of them people like to caricature. A lot of them people like to caricature. A lot of them understand sort of the basic facts of understand sort of the basic facts of understand sort of the basic facts of what's the difference between an AI data what's the difference between an AI data what's the difference between an AI data center and the old kind of data center. center and the old kind of data center. center and the old kind of data center. how much what's the difference between a how much what's the difference between a how much what's the difference between a closed loop system and an openloop closed loop system and an openloop closed loop system and an openloop system? Most of these people are not system? Most of these people are not system? Most of these people are not just misinformed. They have just just misinformed. They have just just misinformed. They have just personally decided I'm not that personally decided I'm not that personally decided I'm not that interested in having a data center in my interested in having a data center in my interested in having a data center in my community even if it pays some property community even if it pays some property community even if it pays some property taxes.

taxes. taxes. >> So when you talk to people in the AI >> So when you talk to people in the AI >> So when you talk to people in the AI companies and and sort of talk to them companies and and sort of talk to them companies and and sort of talk to them about this backlash, I know they're very about this backlash, I know they're very about this backlash, I know they're very worried about this, right? I've talked worried about this, right? I've talked worried about this, right? I've talked to them about this. to them about this. to them about this. >> What are they learning from it? I do >> What are they learning from it? I do >> What are they learning from it? I do think that this year in 2026, think that this year in 2026, think that this year in 2026, I've AI executives, AI researchers have I've AI executives, AI researchers have I've AI executives, AI researchers have started to take the public backlash a started to take the public backlash a started to take the public backlash a lot more seriously than they have in the lot more seriously than they have in the lot more seriously than they have in the past. Um, I've heard executives ask, past. Um, I've heard executives ask, past. Um, I've heard executives ask, "Can we do better marketing? I don't "Can we do better marketing? I don't "Can we do better marketing? I don't understand why it is that Whimos are so understand why it is that Whimos are so understand why it is that Whimos are so unpopular." Um, I've heard executives unpopular." Um, I've heard executives unpopular." Um, I've heard executives ask, "What do you think are the deals ask, "What do you think are the deals ask, "What do you think are the deals that we should be making? Do you think that we should be making? Do you think that we should be making? Do you think we should just be mailing checks to we should just be mailing checks to we should just be mailing checks to every house that lives near a data every house that lives near a data every house that lives near a data center project? Will that fix things? center project? Will that fix things? center project? Will that fix things? Um, like tell us how to make a better Um, like tell us how to make a better Um, like tell us how to make a better deal. Do we need to cut people's deal. Do we need to cut people's deal. Do we need to cut people's electricity prices in half? Would that electricity prices in half? Would that electricity prices in half? Would that work? Unfortunately, the word bribe gets work? Unfortunately, the word bribe gets work? Unfortunately, the word bribe gets used a lot more than I am personally used a lot more than I am personally used a lot more than I am personally comfortable with. I think that when you comfortable with. I think that when you comfortable with. I think that when you are framing the thing you're doing, even are framing the thing you're doing, even are framing the thing you're doing, even jokingly, as bribing communities into jokingly, as bribing communities into jokingly, as bribing communities into putting a data center there, I don't putting a data center there, I don't putting a data center there, I don't think you're starting off on the right think you're starting off on the right think you're starting off on the right foot. Um, I think that people can feel foot. Um, I think that people can feel foot. Um, I think that people can feel when they are being bribed. I've heard when they are being bribed. I've heard when they are being bribed. I've heard these people say these companies are these people say these companies are these people say these companies are biting us. Um, so there's a little bit biting us. Um, so there's a little bit biting us. Um, so there's a little bit of examination. The thing that I don't of examination. The thing that I don't of examination. The thing that I don't think is being examined as much as I think is being examined as much as I think is being examined as much as I want it to be though is are we building want it to be though is are we building want it to be though is are we building a technology? Are we building a product a technology? Are we building a product a technology? Are we building a product that is helping people?

that is helping people? that is helping people? >> Yeah. The version of this I have heard >> Yeah. The version of this I have heard >> Yeah. The version of this I have heard is we have a marketing problem. Maybe we is we have a marketing problem. Maybe we is we have a marketing problem. Maybe we should stop saying aloud so often. should stop saying aloud so often. should stop saying aloud so often. >> Yes. that our technology might take >> Yes. that our technology might take >> Yes. that our technology might take everybody's job and has a 10% chance of everybody's job and has a 10% chance of everybody's job and has a 10% chance of upending or destroying humanity upending or destroying humanity upending or destroying humanity altogether. What has not been clear to me even as What has not been clear to me even as they begin to like maybe move away from they begin to like maybe move away from they begin to like maybe move away from that messaging a little bit is whether that messaging a little bit is whether that messaging a little bit is whether or not they no longer believe that. or not they no longer believe that. or not they no longer believe that. Again, I am my personal view is like I Again, I am my personal view is like I Again, I am my personal view is like I don't think it's going to take don't think it's going to take don't think it's going to take everybody's job. But to the extent they everybody's job. But to the extent they everybody's job. But to the extent they do or at least they take that very very do or at least they take that very very do or at least they take that very very seriously, it's like I keep hearing them seriously, it's like I keep hearing them seriously, it's like I keep hearing them say that we have a marketing problem. say that we have a marketing problem. say that we have a marketing problem. And I keep saying when I talk to them And I keep saying when I talk to them And I keep saying when I talk to them about this about this about this >> that if you believe the things you have >> that if you believe the things you have >> that if you believe the things you have been saying and in fact the things you been saying and in fact the things you been saying and in fact the things you have told me personally, have told me personally, have told me personally, >> you don't have a marketing problem. >> you don't have a marketing problem. >> you don't have a marketing problem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You have a problematic technology like >> You have a problematic technology like >> You have a problematic technology like you have a product problem. you have a product problem. you have a product problem. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because people are not going to want >> Because people are not going to want >> Because people are not going to want that future. that future. that future. >> Yeah. I mean, I think I would make some >> Yeah. I mean, I think I would make some >> Yeah. I mean, I think I would make some distinctions between, of course, distinctions between, of course, distinctions between, of course, different companies, different different companies, different different companies, different executives, right? Like one thing that's executives, right? Like one thing that's executives, right? Like one thing that's like very interesting to me thinking like very interesting to me thinking like very interesting to me thinking about the comms in Silicon Valley is about the comms in Silicon Valley is about the comms in Silicon Valley is that for a very long time, these that for a very long time, these that for a very long time, these companies were only marketing to companies were only marketing to companies were only marketing to potential recruits and potential potential recruits and potential potential recruits and potential investors. Basically, they were trying investors. Basically, they were trying investors. Basically, they were trying to win the vibes on AI Twitter in San to win the vibes on AI Twitter in San to win the vibes on AI Twitter in San Francisco. And I kind of feel like they Francisco. And I kind of feel like they Francisco. And I kind of feel like they never realized everyone else could hear never realized everyone else could hear never realized everyone else could hear them, right? And so now they're trying them, right? And so now they're trying them, right? And so now they're trying to take it back. But like my sense is to take it back. But like my sense is to take it back. But like my sense is that Sam Alman for a long time part of that Sam Alman for a long time part of that Sam Alman for a long time part of the reason he was talking about like oh the reason he was talking about like oh the reason he was talking about like oh shifting the balance of power from labor shifting the balance of power from labor shifting the balance of power from labor to capital and like rogue AI and

to capital and like rogue AI and to capital and like rogue AI and whatever was also because he was winning whatever was also because he was winning whatever was also because he was winning points among people who he wanted to points among people who he wanted to points among people who he wanted to work at open AI and he had to work at open AI and he had to work at open AI and he had to communicate that he was as agi pill as communicate that he was as agi pill as communicate that he was as agi pill as them. He was as worried about the same them. He was as worried about the same them. He was as worried about the same safety things as them and now that his safety things as them and now that his safety things as them and now that his interest is more in political goodwill interest is more in political goodwill interest is more in political goodwill and IPOing and things like that he's and IPOing and things like that he's and IPOing and things like that he's sort of changed his tune. Um, I think sort of changed his tune. Um, I think sort of changed his tune. Um, I think that, yeah, I I'm I'm not sure to what that, yeah, I I'm I'm not sure to what that, yeah, I I'm I'm not sure to what extent every AI industry actor has extent every AI industry actor has extent every AI industry actor has always believed the things that they've always believed the things that they've always believed the things that they've warned about. warned about. warned about. >> I think people can believe things they >> I think people can believe things they >> I think people can believe things they don't feel, if that makes sense. don't feel, if that makes sense. don't feel, if that makes sense. >> And I think a lot of people in the eye >> And I think a lot of people in the eye >> And I think a lot of people in the eye industry are in a culture and inside industry are in a culture and inside industry are in a culture and inside arguments where arguments where arguments where this set of outcomes feels very real, this set of outcomes feels very real, this set of outcomes feels very real, right? Uh or or looks very real. And so right? Uh or or looks very real. And so right? Uh or or looks very real. And so I think they believe it. I think when I think they believe it. I think when I think they believe it. I think when they make these arguments, I don't think they make these arguments, I don't think they make these arguments, I don't think they're just doing it for, you know, they're just doing it for, you know, they're just doing it for, you know, publicity points. In fact, I think it's publicity points. In fact, I think it's publicity points. In fact, I think it's the opposite. I think when they're now the opposite. I think when they're now the opposite. I think when they're now trying to move away from some of these trying to move away from some of these trying to move away from some of these arguments, I think it's actually much arguments, I think it's actually much arguments, I think it's actually much more of like a cynical marketing ploy. more of like a cynical marketing ploy. more of like a cynical marketing ploy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think they often believe these >> But I think they often believe these >> But I think they often believe these things without actually like in their things without actually like in their things without actually like in their bones, bones, bones, >> feeling it.

>> feeling it. >> feeling it. >> Um, which is sort of why they act >> Um, which is sort of why they act >> Um, which is sort of why they act >> relatively heedlessly. >> relatively heedlessly. >> relatively heedlessly. >> Yeah. or at least like on the set of >> Yeah. or at least like on the set of >> Yeah. or at least like on the set of things they believe like this things they believe like this things they believe like this speculative notional set of beliefs speculative notional set of beliefs speculative notional set of beliefs about what might happen is way less about what might happen is way less about what might happen is way less close to their core. Yeah. close to their core. Yeah. close to their core. Yeah. >> Than their belief that if they don't >> Than their belief that if they don't >> Than their belief that if they don't build this data center or get this next build this data center or get this next build this data center or get this next model out like their competitors or model out like their competitors or model out like their competitors or China or somebody Yeah. China or somebody Yeah. China or somebody Yeah. >> is like going to get in front of them >> is like going to get in front of them >> is like going to get in front of them and they're much more motivated by by by and they're much more motivated by by by and they're much more motivated by by by the push forward. the push forward. the push forward. >> Yeah. I mean I think the technological >> Yeah. I mean I think the technological >> Yeah. I mean I think the technological determinism is just such a big part of determinism is just such a big part of determinism is just such a big part of it. I think that if I'm trying to think it. I think that if I'm trying to think it. I think that if I'm trying to think about how my friends in the AI industry about how my friends in the AI industry about how my friends in the AI industry would react to this conversation, that's would react to this conversation, that's would react to this conversation, that's the thing that they would say that we the thing that they would say that we the thing that they would say that we are not focusing on enough is they are are not focusing on enough is they are are not focusing on enough is they are so sure that there is no way that AGI or so sure that there is no way that AGI or so sure that there is no way that AGI or super intelligence or whatever it is super intelligence or whatever it is super intelligence or whatever it is does not get built and it is only a does not get built and it is only a does not get built and it is only a question of who builds it. I think that question of who builds it. I think that question of who builds it. I think that fundamental sort of underlying belief is fundamental sort of underlying belief is fundamental sort of underlying belief is what justifies everything else is we what justifies everything else is we what justifies everything else is we have to be the ones to do it. Us pulling have to be the ones to do it. Us pulling have to be the ones to do it. Us pulling back, us stopping is not going to back, us stopping is not going to back, us stopping is not going to prevent any of the bad stuff. Right. I I prevent any of the bad stuff. Right. I I prevent any of the bad stuff. Right. I I agree with that and I think that's why agree with that and I think that's why agree with that and I think that's why the China card in this has been such the China card in this has been such the China card in this has been such like a destructive part of the argument.

like a destructive part of the argument. like a destructive part of the argument. I'm not even sure it's totally untrue. I'm not even sure it's totally untrue. I'm not even sure it's totally untrue. Like I I am completely willing to Like I I am completely willing to Like I I am completely willing to believe that China and America are in a believe that China and America are in a believe that China and America are in a race for a economically and race for a economically and race for a economically and geopolitically important technology even geopolitically important technology even geopolitically important technology even if you don't buy like recursive super if you don't buy like recursive super if you don't buy like recursive super intelligence. Mhm. intelligence. Mhm. intelligence. Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um but the way that has then been used to but the way that has then been used to but the way that has then been used to not say well we should enter into not say well we should enter into not say well we should enter into international negotiations or something international negotiations or something international negotiations or something but instead just like we cannot slow but instead just like we cannot slow but instead just like we cannot slow down whatsoever no matter what else we down whatsoever no matter what else we down whatsoever no matter what else we worry about or or believe I think has worry about or or believe I think has worry about or or believe I think has been it is it is acted as a kind of of been it is it is acted as a kind of of been it is it is acted as a kind of of blackmail and the thing is that it's not blackmail and the thing is that it's not blackmail and the thing is that it's not bought by enough people no bought by enough people no bought by enough people no >> outside of the industry but I think the >> outside of the industry but I think the >> outside of the industry but I think the phase of the politics we're now in is phase of the politics we're now in is phase of the politics we're now in is out of their control And it is just not out of their control And it is just not out of their control And it is just not going to be the case that they have going to be the case that they have going to be the case that they have control over the AI narrative like next control over the AI narrative like next control over the AI narrative like next year that they had two years ago. And year that they had two years ago. And year that they had two years ago. And yeah, I don't really think they know yeah, I don't really think they know yeah, I don't really think they know what to what to do in that space. And so what to what to do in that space. And so what to what to do in that space. And so now it's like either going to have to now it's like either going to have to now it's like either going to have to start benefiting start benefiting start benefiting >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> people, right? You some of these like if >> people, right? You some of these like if >> people, right? You some of these like if people began seeing like drug cures come people began seeing like drug cures come people began seeing like drug cures come out, right? All these things we've out, right? All these things we've out, right? All these things we've actually been promised, right?

actually been promised, right? actually been promised, right? >> And you could say like we're beginning >> And you could say like we're beginning >> And you could say like we're beginning to see the beginning of like to see the beginning of like to see the beginning of like mathematical conjectures. Like that's mathematical conjectures. Like that's mathematical conjectures. Like that's been pretty cool, but we're not really been pretty cool, but we're not really been pretty cool, but we're not really seeing the gains. And if you start seeing the gains. And if you start seeing the gains. And if you start getting the losses before the gains, getting the losses before the gains, getting the losses before the gains, right? You start getting the job loss, right? You start getting the job loss, right? You start getting the job loss, for instance, before the promised, you for instance, before the promised, you for instance, before the promised, you know, super abundance, know, super abundance, know, super abundance, >> politically, that's not going to be an >> politically, that's not going to be an >> politically, that's not going to be an equilibrium you can protect. equilibrium you can protect. equilibrium you can protect. >> That's one of the things I'm worried >> That's one of the things I'm worried >> That's one of the things I'm worried about is I do think that we are pretty about is I do think that we are pretty about is I do think that we are pretty likely to see we are seeing a lot of the likely to see we are seeing a lot of the likely to see we are seeing a lot of the social instability before we get the social instability before we get the social instability before we get the cancer cures, right? And so or even with cancer cures, right? And so or even with cancer cures, right? And so or even with the math stuff, it's like I think that the math stuff, it's like I think that the math stuff, it's like I think that one thing I notice more and more now is one thing I notice more and more now is one thing I notice more and more now is this deep cultural and values gap this deep cultural and values gap this deep cultural and values gap between Silicon Valley and the rest of between Silicon Valley and the rest of between Silicon Valley and the rest of America, the rest of the world. I'm not America, the rest of the world. I'm not America, the rest of the world. I'm not saying that Silicon Valley is wrong, saying that Silicon Valley is wrong, saying that Silicon Valley is wrong, that it's cool to like disprove the that it's cool to like disprove the that it's cool to like disprove the Jacobian conjecture, right? Like um it Jacobian conjecture, right? Like um it Jacobian conjecture, right? Like um it is cool, but like when you ask a lot of is cool, but like when you ask a lot of is cool, but like when you ask a lot of people in the tech industry what their people in the tech industry what their people in the tech industry what their utopia looks like, they'll say things utopia looks like, they'll say things utopia looks like, they'll say things like, "We have UBI, so no one has to like, "We have UBI, so no one has to like, "We have UBI, so no one has to work anymore. or we're all immortal and work anymore. or we're all immortal and work anymore. or we're all immortal and we've discovered all of math and we've discovered all of math and we've discovered all of math and physics. And if you do the polling on physics. And if you do the polling on physics. And if you do the polling on UBI and immortality, neither are UBI and immortality, neither are UBI and immortality, neither are especially popular with the American especially popular with the American especially popular with the American public. I think that public. I think that public. I think that >> we pulled immortality is a [laughter] >> we pulled immortality is a [laughter] >> we pulled immortality is a [laughter] funny funny funny >> I mean it's been pulled. You can look it >> I mean it's been pulled. You can look it >> I mean it's been pulled. You can look it up. Um if you ask people what like they up. Um if you ask people what like they up. Um if you ask people what like they want AI to do for them, it's not want AI to do for them, it's not want AI to do for them, it's not necessarily having you know parents tow necessarily having you know parents tow necessarily having you know parents tow in your pocket. It's not disproving in your pocket. It's not disproving in your pocket. It's not disproving math, right? Like they want things to be math, right? Like they want things to be math, right? Like they want things to be cheaper. They want to be healthier. They cheaper. They want to be healthier. They cheaper. They want to be healthier. They want to not do crappy work so they have want to not do crappy work so they have want to not do crappy work so they have more time for the stuff they like. But I more time for the stuff they like. But I more time for the stuff they like. But I think it is genuinely true that the think it is genuinely true that the think it is genuinely true that the stuff that is really cool and also that stuff that is really cool and also that stuff that is really cool and also that it's oftentimes technically easier to

it's oftentimes technically easier to it's oftentimes technically easier to solve like math um is not what most solve like math um is not what most solve like math um is not what most people want from this technology. Um and people want from this technology. Um and people want from this technology. Um and I think it's also true that it's just I think it's also true that it's just I think it's also true that it's just literally technically harder to cure literally technically harder to cure literally technically harder to cure cancer than it is it turns out to prove cancer than it is it turns out to prove cancer than it is it turns out to prove math theorems. And the other thing that math theorems. And the other thing that math theorems. And the other thing that I hear from the public when I talk about I hear from the public when I talk about I hear from the public when I talk about the cancer cures is, yeah, but are they the cancer cures is, yeah, but are they the cancer cures is, yeah, but are they going to just use it for themselves? Is going to just use it for themselves? Is going to just use it for themselves? Is Peter Teal or whoever just gonna buy Peter Teal or whoever just gonna buy Peter Teal or whoever just gonna buy himself immortality? Am I going to be himself immortality? Am I going to be himself immortality? Am I going to be able to afford immortality? able to afford immortality? able to afford immortality? >> My view for a very long time has been >> My view for a very long time has been >> My view for a very long time has been that a lot of people in these companies that a lot of people in these companies that a lot of people in these companies overrate how much of the bottleneck in overrate how much of the bottleneck in overrate how much of the bottleneck in scientific and human progress is raw scientific and human progress is raw scientific and human progress is raw intelligence. intelligence. intelligence. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And just I mean this is a point of >> And just I mean this is a point of >> And just I mean this is a point of abundance. just but the point of abundance. just but the point of abundance. just but the point of covering anything anywhere covering anything anywhere covering anything anywhere >> the world is full of friction. >> the world is full of friction. >> the world is full of friction. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know you want to do drug >> And you know you want to do drug >> And you know you want to do drug discovery and I think we should actually discovery and I think we should actually discovery and I think we should actually do a lot to make drug discovery easier, do a lot to make drug discovery easier, do a lot to make drug discovery easier, make drug testing easier, right? Like I make drug testing easier, right? Like I make drug testing easier, right? Like I have said this many times before, I have said this many times before, I have said this many times before, I would like to see us prepare like drug would like to see us prepare like drug would like to see us prepare like drug development for a world where AI is development for a world where AI is development for a world where AI is spitting out way more promising spitting out way more promising spitting out way more promising molecular candidates.

molecular candidates. molecular candidates. >> But that's still a world where you need >> But that's still a world where you need >> But that's still a world where you need enough monkeys to test things on, enough monkeys to test things on, enough monkeys to test things on, >> right? humans to test things on, rats to >> right? humans to test things on, rats to >> right? humans to test things on, rats to test things on, right? And you still test things on, right? And you still test things on, right? And you still need to do all the safety data and just need to do all the safety data and just need to do all the safety data and just the amount of the world that is slowed the amount of the world that is slowed the amount of the world that is slowed down by we don't have any good ideas down by we don't have any good ideas down by we don't have any good ideas like we are out of ideas versus like we are out of ideas versus like we are out of ideas versus it is hard to organize things uh amidst it is hard to organize things uh amidst it is hard to organize things uh amidst humans you know amidst you know with raw humans you know amidst you know with raw humans you know amidst you know with raw materials like in bureaucracies in materials like in bureaucracies in materials like in bureaucracies in organizations you get like intelligence organizations you get like intelligence organizations you get like intelligence is important um but it is not everything is important um but it is not everything is important um but it is not everything and I think anybody who's like been in and I think anybody who's like been in and I think anybody who's like been in organizations like knows It's actually organizations like knows It's actually organizations like knows It's actually less than you think it is. less than you think it is. less than you think it is. >> Yeah. Again, I think of a, you know, a >> Yeah. Again, I think of a, you know, a >> Yeah. Again, I think of a, you know, a lot of these people have been AI lot of these people have been AI lot of these people have been AI researchers for their entire careers. researchers for their entire careers. researchers for their entire careers. Maybe before that they were physics PhDs Maybe before that they were physics PhDs Maybe before that they were physics PhDs or they were uh doing quant trading or they were uh doing quant trading or they were uh doing quant trading which are all these kinds of jobs that which are all these kinds of jobs that which are all these kinds of jobs that are fairly they're IC jobs or individual are fairly they're IC jobs or individual are fairly they're IC jobs or individual contributors where you're not contributors where you're not contributors where you're not necessarily working in big teams. So necessarily working in big teams. So necessarily working in big teams. So there's not a lot of politicking and there's not a lot of politicking and there's not a lot of politicking and relational work where all of the relational work where all of the relational work where all of the relevant context lives inside a single relevant context lives inside a single relevant context lives inside a single codebase. And so for AI to sort of codebase. And so for AI to sort of codebase. And so for AI to sort of understand what's going on, it can kind understand what's going on, it can kind understand what's going on, it can kind of explore all this context that's of explore all this context that's of explore all this context that's already been written down. I'm not already been written down. I'm not already been written down. I'm not saying there's no tacet knowledge, but a saying there's no tacet knowledge, but a saying there's no tacet knowledge, but a lot more of the context is made lot more of the context is made lot more of the context is made explicit. And these are also places explicit. And these are also places explicit. And these are also places where simply applying more thinking and where simply applying more thinking and where simply applying more thinking and more intelligence just as an individual more intelligence just as an individual more intelligence just as an individual like as a person, a remote worker in a like as a person, a remote worker in a like as a person, a remote worker in a closet or whatever might actually find closet or whatever might actually find closet or whatever might actually find the more efficient algorithm, right?

the more efficient algorithm, right? the more efficient algorithm, right? Like you don't actually need to politic Like you don't actually need to politic Like you don't actually need to politic your way to a better algorithm. You your way to a better algorithm. You your way to a better algorithm. You don't need to do stuff in the physical don't need to do stuff in the physical don't need to do stuff in the physical world to get that. And so I think a lot world to get that. And so I think a lot world to get that. And so I think a lot of people at these companies don't of people at these companies don't of people at these companies don't really realize how hard that is. cuz I really realize how hard that is. cuz I really realize how hard that is. cuz I mean it's funny cuz people will say mean it's funny cuz people will say mean it's funny cuz people will say things like um yeah there's like things like um yeah there's like things like um yeah there's like electricity cost and energy cost to AI electricity cost and energy cost to AI electricity cost and energy cost to AI but like AI will maybe solve the climate but like AI will maybe solve the climate but like AI will maybe solve the climate and I ask how and to be clear I think and I ask how and to be clear I think and I ask how and to be clear I think there are a lot of ways that AI can there are a lot of ways that AI can there are a lot of ways that AI can improve you know climate science improve you know climate science improve you know climate science research help research help research help >> yeah building efficiency >> yeah building efficiency >> yeah building efficiency but like at the same time you ask people but like at the same time you ask people but like at the same time you ask people and it's just like oh I don't know it's and it's just like oh I don't know it's and it's just like oh I don't know it's just going to do it right or it's like just going to do it right or it's like just going to do it right or it's like oh how how is AI going to improve oh how how is AI going to improve oh how how is AI going to improve robotics like I don't know AI will robotics like I don't know AI will robotics like I don't know AI will figure it out you kind of do have this I figure it out you kind of do have this I figure it out you kind of do have this I I find it lazy actually like I one of I find it lazy actually like I one of I find it lazy actually like I one of the things that annoys me about this the things that annoys me about this the things that annoys me about this particular approach is it's not that I particular approach is it's not that I particular approach is it's not that I don't think that AI can contribute to don't think that AI can contribute to don't think that AI can contribute to all of these problems. I think it all of these problems. I think it all of these problems. I think it definitely can but what I often hear is definitely can but what I often hear is definitely can but what I often hear is a kind of laziness about how it's going a kind of laziness about how it's going a kind of laziness about how it's going to do that and it feels like a DSX mocka to do that and it feels like a DSX mocka to do that and it feels like a DSX mocka of it's super smart it'll just figure it of it's super smart it'll just figure it of it's super smart it'll just figure it out. out. out. >> I used to say that this was back when >> I used to say that this was back when >> I used to say that this was back when you know Silicon Valley was a more you know Silicon Valley was a more you know Silicon Valley was a more optimistic place than it has been in optimistic place than it has been in optimistic place than it has been in recent years. uh but that the difference recent years. uh but that the difference recent years. uh but that the difference between the culture of DC where I live between the culture of DC where I live between the culture of DC where I live for a long time and of Silicon Valley for a long time and of Silicon Valley for a long time and of Silicon Valley was that in Silicon Valley people's was that in Silicon Valley people's was that in Silicon Valley people's worldview is formed by seeing impossible worldview is formed by seeing impossible worldview is formed by seeing impossible problems prove possible to solve and in problems prove possible to solve and in problems prove possible to solve and in DC people's worldview is formed by DC people's worldview is formed by DC people's worldview is formed by seeing possible problems prove seeing possible problems prove seeing possible problems prove impossible to solve and I think that is impossible to solve and I think that is impossible to solve and I think that is now going to collapse for the AI now going to collapse for the AI now going to collapse for the AI industry into one worldview because you

industry into one worldview because you industry into one worldview because you know these are people who like give them know these are people who like give them know these are people who like give them their due their due their due They've invented artificial They've invented artificial They've invented artificial intelligence. Like they actually did it. intelligence. Like they actually did it. intelligence. Like they actually did it. >> You know, this is amazing. Like I cannot >> You know, this is amazing. Like I cannot >> You know, this is amazing. Like I cannot believe how good some of these systems believe how good some of these systems believe how good some of these systems are. I'm like shocked to be living are. I'm like shocked to be living are. I'm like shocked to be living through this. through this. through this. >> They were able to do that. That seemed >> They were able to do that. That seemed >> They were able to do that. That seemed impossible proved possible. And now impossible proved possible. And now impossible proved possible. And now they're going to now they're finding they're going to now they're finding they're going to now they're finding it's like impossible to build a data it's like impossible to build a data it's like impossible to build a data center. center. center. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And like that's what doing other kinds >> And like that's what doing other kinds >> And like that's what doing other kinds of things in the world teaches you. of things in the world teaches you. of things in the world teaches you. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That there are a lot of problems that >> That there are a lot of problems that >> That there are a lot of problems that are not possible to solve. Not because are not possible to solve. Not because are not possible to solve. Not because like you cannot come up with the idea like you cannot come up with the idea like you cannot come up with the idea for them for them for them >> but because you are dealing with like >> but because you are dealing with like >> but because you are dealing with like the messy realities of societies of the messy realities of societies of the messy realities of societies of politics of values of you know um politics of values of you know um politics of values of you know um logistics logistics logistics >> and um it'll demand a kind of it'll >> and um it'll demand a kind of it'll >> and um it'll demand a kind of it'll impose a kind of realism I think on the impose a kind of realism I think on the impose a kind of realism I think on the industries that it has not always had. industries that it has not always had. industries that it has not always had. >> Yeah. I was trying to think about what >> Yeah. I was trying to think about what >> Yeah. I was trying to think about what the difference was between how I would the difference was between how I would the difference was between how I would describe Silicon Valley and San describe Silicon Valley and San describe Silicon Valley and San Francisco culture a year ago. um let's Francisco culture a year ago. um let's Francisco culture a year ago. um let's say early 2025 versus now. And I think say early 2025 versus now. And I think say early 2025 versus now. And I think the number one thing is that Silicon the number one thing is that Silicon the number one thing is that Silicon Valley has really woken up to politics.

Valley has really woken up to politics. Valley has really woken up to politics. Um you know, in January 2025, Silicon Um you know, in January 2025, Silicon Um you know, in January 2025, Silicon Valley was feeling very triumphant about Valley was feeling very triumphant about Valley was feeling very triumphant about about Doge, about Elon Musk, about David about Doge, about Elon Musk, about David about Doge, about Elon Musk, about David Sax and Trurom and the White House. It Sax and Trurom and the White House. It Sax and Trurom and the White House. It kind of felt like they were all in kind of felt like they were all in kind of felt like they were all in control. And actually, if you just build control. And actually, if you just build control. And actually, if you just build the these genius technologies and you the these genius technologies and you the these genius technologies and you get super rich and you have good ideas, get super rich and you have good ideas, get super rich and you have good ideas, you'll just, you know, get the political you'll just, you know, get the political you'll just, you know, get the political power to enact your vision. And a year power to enact your vision. And a year power to enact your vision. And a year and a half later, a lot of those folks and a half later, a lot of those folks and a half later, a lot of those folks are out of the White House. They failed are out of the White House. They failed are out of the White House. They failed at reducing the national debt and at reducing the national debt and at reducing the national debt and achieving all these other goals that achieving all these other goals that achieving all these other goals that they thought they could just AI their they thought they could just AI their they thought they could just AI their way into solving. Um, Anthropic, for way into solving. Um, Anthropic, for way into solving. Um, Anthropic, for example, um, is has had a lot of example, um, is has had a lot of example, um, is has had a lot of problems in its dealings with the Trump problems in its dealings with the Trump problems in its dealings with the Trump administration, fundamentally very administration, fundamentally very administration, fundamentally very political and very relational problems. political and very relational problems. political and very relational problems. >> Daario's problem in dealing with the >> Daario's problem in dealing with the >> Daario's problem in dealing with the White House was not, I think, that he White House was not, I think, that he White House was not, I think, that he didn't have good arguments or that he's didn't have good arguments or that he's didn't have good arguments or that he's not very smart or not saying logical not very smart or not saying logical not very smart or not saying logical things. Um, I think that anyone from things. Um, I think that anyone from things. Um, I think that anyone from anthropic will admit that these are anthropic will admit that these are anthropic will admit that these are largely relational problems. And so largely relational problems. And so largely relational problems. And so there's a way where I think democracy there's a way where I think democracy there's a way where I think democracy and politics is a lot more powerful than and politics is a lot more powerful than and politics is a lot more powerful than these very rich and very smart tech these very rich and very smart tech these very rich and very smart tech people realize. Um, and there's some people realize. Um, and there's some people realize. Um, and there's some optimism to that, I think, and in in optimism to that, I think, and in in optimism to that, I think, and in in looking at it and saying it's actually looking at it and saying it's actually looking at it and saying it's actually really hard to buy an election. It's really hard to buy an election. It's really hard to buy an election. It's actually really hard to buy out the actually really hard to buy out the actually really hard to buy out the whole White House at once. Um, but it's whole White House at once. Um, but it's whole White House at once. Um, but it's an interesting moment I think for uh the an interesting moment I think for uh the an interesting moment I think for uh the tech industry to be realizing how tech industry to be realizing how tech industry to be realizing how important politics really is and how important politics really is and how important politics really is and how difficult it is.

difficult it is. difficult it is. >> I think that's a good place to end. >> I think that's a good place to end. >> I think that's a good place to end. Always a final question. What are three Always a final question. What are three Always a final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? books you'd recommend to the audience? books you'd recommend to the audience? >> Oo. Um, so I think the first one is >> Oo. Um, so I think the first one is >> Oo. Um, so I think the first one is really relevant to this conversation really relevant to this conversation really relevant to this conversation which is uh Benjamin Lobitudes the which is uh Benjamin Lobitudes the which is uh Benjamin Lobitudes the Maniac um which includes a sort of Maniac um which includes a sort of Maniac um which includes a sort of lightly fictionalized biography of John lightly fictionalized biography of John lightly fictionalized biography of John vonman the story of AlphaGo. I think vonman the story of AlphaGo. I think vonman the story of AlphaGo. I think it's very much a sort of halfway novel, it's very much a sort of halfway novel, it's very much a sort of halfway novel, halfway non-fiction book about how halfway non-fiction book about how halfway non-fiction book about how intelligence is incredibly all inspiring intelligence is incredibly all inspiring intelligence is incredibly all inspiring and something worth respecting and at and something worth respecting and at and something worth respecting and at the same time can lead people to some the same time can lead people to some the same time can lead people to some very dark realities. Um, my second book very dark realities. Um, my second book very dark realities. Um, my second book is The Technology Trap from Carl is The Technology Trap from Carl is The Technology Trap from Carl Benedict Trey, which I think is very Benedict Trey, which I think is very Benedict Trey, which I think is very much about how people's attitudes much about how people's attitudes much about how people's attitudes towards technology and automation depend towards technology and automation depend towards technology and automation depend on to what extent the benefits, the on to what extent the benefits, the on to what extent the benefits, the economic growth is shared, to what economic growth is shared, to what economic growth is shared, to what extent they feel like they're getting a extent they feel like they're getting a extent they feel like they're getting a piece of the pie. It goes through a lot piece of the pie. It goes through a lot piece of the pie. It goes through a lot of history, much more than just the of history, much more than just the of history, much more than just the industrial revolution. And so that's industrial revolution. And so that's industrial revolution. And so that's shaped a lot of my thinking on some of shaped a lot of my thinking on some of shaped a lot of my thinking on some of the economic questions and the populist the economic questions and the populist the economic questions and the populist questions. Um, and then finally, uh, questions. Um, and then finally, uh, questions. Um, and then finally, uh, Pria Parker's The Art of Gathering Pria Parker's The Art of Gathering Pria Parker's The Art of Gathering because I do think that the relational because I do think that the relational because I do think that the relational stuff is going to become a lot more stuff is going to become a lot more stuff is going to become a lot more important. It always was, and I do think important. It always was, and I do think important. It always was, and I do think that book has helped me become a better that book has helped me become a better that book has helped me become a better host.

host. host. >> She would be so happy to hear that. >> She would be so happy to hear that. >> She would be so happy to hear that. People should go check out our People should go check out our People should go check out our conversation with Pria Parker. Jasmine conversation with Pria Parker. Jasmine conversation with Pria Parker. Jasmine Sun, thank you so much. Sun, thank you so much. Sun, thank you so much. >> Thank you so much for having me. This is >> Thank you so much for having me. This is >> Thank you so much for having me. This is fun.