Ross Douthat: The Exit Interview | The Ezra Klein Show

I've known Ross D outfit a long time. We I've known Ross D outfit a long time. We were bloggers back when the earth was were bloggers back when the earth was were bloggers back when the earth was young. Uh, young. Uh, young. Uh, >> hey Ross, how are you? >> hey Ross, how are you? >> hey Ross, how are you? >> Good. I'm fine, Ezra. How are you? >> Good. I'm fine, Ezra. How are you? >> Good. I'm fine, Ezra. How are you? >> And then I watched him become a >> And then I watched him become a >> And then I watched him become a columnist here at the New York Times columnist here at the New York Times columnist here at the New York Times Opinion in 2009, the youngest ever New Opinion in 2009, the youngest ever New Opinion in 2009, the youngest ever New York Times opinion columnist. About a York Times opinion columnist. About a York Times opinion columnist. About a year ago, he launched Interesting Times, year ago, he launched Interesting Times, year ago, he launched Interesting Times, which has been a great fellow podcast which has been a great fellow podcast which has been a great fellow podcast here in the section. here in the section. here in the section. >> What is the Antichrist? >> What is the Antichrist? >> What is the Antichrist? >> How much time do we have? We've got uh >> How much time do we have? We've got uh >> How much time do we have? We've got uh as long as much time as you have to talk as long as much time as you have to talk as long as much time as you have to talk about the Antichrist. about the Antichrist. about the Antichrist. >> And then breaking all of our hearts, he >> And then breaking all of our hearts, he >> And then breaking all of our hearts, he announced he's going to 60 Minutes where announced he's going to 60 Minutes where announced he's going to 60 Minutes where he's going to be a correspondent. So I he's going to be a correspondent. So I he's going to be a correspondent. So I want to talk to Ross on his way out here want to talk to Ross on his way out here want to talk to Ross on his way out here about how he has seen media change, how about how he has seen media change, how about how he has seen media change, how he has seen politics change, and how he has seen politics change, and how he has seen politics change, and how maybe he believes it is changing again. maybe he believes it is changing again. maybe he believes it is changing again. Ross Dit joins me now. Ross Dela, welcome back to the show. Ross Dela, welcome back to the show. >> Thanks for having me, Ezra. It's a >> Thanks for having me, Ezra. It's a >> Thanks for having me, Ezra. It's a pleasure. pleasure. pleasure. >> What the hell, man? >> What the hell, man? >> What the hell, man? >> What? What do you mean? >> What? What do you mean? >> What? What do you mean? >> Going to 60 Minutes. You're leaving us? >> Going to 60 Minutes. You're leaving us? >> Going to 60 Minutes. You're leaving us? I I I >> I mean, in spiritually, >> I mean, in spiritually, >> I mean, in spiritually, I You never leave any place that that I You never leave any place that that I You never leave any place that that you love and all things are gathered in you love and all things are gathered in you love and all things are gathered in by God for his But yeah, I'm I'm going by God for his But yeah, I'm I'm going by God for his But yeah, I'm I'm going to 60 minutes.

to 60 minutes. to 60 minutes. >> All right, we're we're going to we're >> All right, we're we're going to we're >> All right, we're we're going to we're going to get to going to 60 minutes. going to get to going to 60 minutes. going to get to going to 60 minutes. We're going to uh start with where you We're going to uh start with where you We're going to uh start with where you came from and get to where you're going. came from and get to where you're going. came from and get to where you're going. Where do you locate your own spiritual Where do you locate your own spiritual Where do you locate your own spiritual origins as a journalist, as a origins as a journalist, as a origins as a journalist, as a commentator, a pundit? I I was going commentator, a pundit? I I was going commentator, a pundit? I I was going back. I had always thought you were like back. I had always thought you were like back. I had always thought you were like me, like an original blogger who gets me, like an original blogger who gets me, like an original blogger who gets absorbed by a media borg. absorbed by a media borg. absorbed by a media borg. >> Oh, yeah. No, it was the opposite. >> Oh, yeah. No, it was the opposite. >> Oh, yeah. No, it was the opposite. >> Yeah, you're the opposite. You start at >> Yeah, you're the opposite. You start at >> Yeah, you're the opposite. You start at the Atlantic and become a blogger. the Atlantic and become a blogger. the Atlantic and become a blogger. >> I, you know, I was a a junior junior >> I, you know, I was a a junior junior >> I, you know, I was a a junior junior junior editor. I edited the letter junior editor. I edited the letter junior editor. I edited the letter section at The Atlantic for a while and section at The Atlantic for a while and section at The Atlantic for a while and I did blogging on the side. Um, I think I did blogging on the side. Um, I think I did blogging on the side. Um, I think of myself as someone who was sort of of myself as someone who was sort of of myself as someone who was sort of present for present for present for both the end of an old dispensation and both the end of an old dispensation and both the end of an old dispensation and the beginning of a new one. So, I had the beginning of a new one. So, I had the beginning of a new one. So, I had sort of parallel careers in my early sort of parallel careers in my early sort of parallel careers in my early 20s. I had the career inside the 20s. I had the career inside the 20s. I had the career inside the Atlantic where I was doing junior editor Atlantic where I was doing junior editor Atlantic where I was doing junior editor work and sort of trying to work my way work and sort of trying to work my way work and sort of trying to work my way up the mast head at an institution up the mast head at an institution up the mast head at an institution where, you know, you were still doing where, you know, you were still doing where, you know, you were still doing fact-checking and copy editing on these fact-checking and copy editing on these fact-checking and copy editing on these huge sheets of paper that would be huge sheets of paper that would be huge sheets of paper that would be printed out and circulate around the printed out and circulate around the printed out and circulate around the office and 17 people would have red pen office and 17 people would have red pen office and 17 people would have red pen on them and it was very much a pre-in on them and it was very much a pre-in on them and it was very much a pre-in magazine and a pre- internet magazine and a pre- internet magazine and a pre- internet journalistic experience. And then then journalistic experience. And then then journalistic experience. And then then at the same time sort of as a side at the same time sort of as a side at the same time sort of as a side hustle I was blogging doing freelance hustle I was blogging doing freelance hustle I was blogging doing freelance writing and sort of participating in writing and sort of participating in writing and sort of participating in yeah the kind of the world of the early

yeah the kind of the world of the early yeah the kind of the world of the early 2000s internet. Those two things sort of 2000s internet. Those two things sort of 2000s internet. Those two things sort of converged because what then happened as converged because what then happened as converged because what then happened as you know was that many many traditional you know was that many many traditional you know was that many many traditional publications looked at that landscape publications looked at that landscape publications looked at that landscape and said ah this is the future and we and said ah this is the future and we and said ah this is the future and we need to co-opt it. Right. So, at the need to co-opt it. Right. So, at the need to co-opt it. Right. So, at the Atlantic, that meant basically creating Atlantic, that meant basically creating Atlantic, that meant basically creating a mini uh editorial page or opinion page a mini uh editorial page or opinion page a mini uh editorial page or opinion page that consisted of prominent bloggers that consisted of prominent bloggers that consisted of prominent bloggers that The Atlantic had hired. So there that The Atlantic had hired. So there that The Atlantic had hired. So there was a period when they brought in Andrew was a period when they brought in Andrew was a period when they brought in Andrew Sullivan who was then the biggest deal Sullivan who was then the biggest deal Sullivan who was then the biggest deal in blogging but they also had Eglacius in blogging but they also had Eglacius in blogging but they also had Eglacius Megan Mardle Tanahasi Coats um and and Megan Mardle Tanahasi Coats um and and Megan Mardle Tanahasi Coats um and and then me because I was already on staff then me because I was already on staff then me because I was already on staff and I can tell you that my own traffic and I can tell you that my own traffic and I can tell you that my own traffic numbers were were somewhat lower than numbers were were somewhat lower than numbers were were somewhat lower than than the others. Um but that that was than the others. Um but that that was than the others. Um but that that was sort of the the path as you know in that sort of the the path as you know in that sort of the the path as you know in that era because you followed it too was to era because you followed it too was to era because you followed it too was to sort of be a kind of outsider blogger sort of be a kind of outsider blogger sort of be a kind of outsider blogger critic of the establishment and then an critic of the establishment and then an critic of the establishment and then an establishment institution might hire you establishment institution might hire you establishment institution might hire you or buy your blog or or bring you on or buy your blog or or bring you on or buy your blog or or bring you on board and it was just that in my case I board and it was just that in my case I board and it was just that in my case I was sort of already on board when that was sort of already on board when that was sort of already on board when that happened. So, how would you describe to happened. So, how would you describe to happened. So, how would you describe to somebody who was not around for that, somebody who was not around for that, somebody who was not around for that, you know, a young journalism student you know, a young journalism student you know, a young journalism student today, what blogging was? What made it today, what blogging was? What made it today, what blogging was? What made it different? What made places like The different? What made places like The different? What made places like The Atlantic, eventually the the New York Atlantic, eventually the the New York Atlantic, eventually the the New York Times think they needed part of it, too?

Times think they needed part of it, too? Times think they needed part of it, too? Well, so there were a couple phases, Well, so there were a couple phases, Well, so there were a couple phases, right, where um there were a couple right, where um there were a couple right, where um there were a couple cohorts of bloggers who became a big cohorts of bloggers who became a big cohorts of bloggers who became a big deal. And the first wave was uh deal. And the first wave was uh deal. And the first wave was uh immediately after September 11th and immediately after September 11th and immediately after September 11th and then in the run-up to the Iraq war where then in the run-up to the Iraq war where then in the run-up to the Iraq war where you had a set of people who were some of you had a set of people who were some of you had a set of people who were some of them were former liberals who had moved them were former liberals who had moved them were former liberals who had moved right uh some of them were just right uh some of them were just right uh some of them were just right-wingers but they got called the right-wingers but they got called the right-wingers but they got called the war bloggers right and these these were war bloggers right and these these were war bloggers right and these these were people who were I would say the simplest people who were I would say the simplest people who were I would say the simplest way to put it is that something crazy way to put it is that something crazy way to put it is that something crazy had happened something worldaltering had had happened something worldaltering had had happened something worldaltering had happened right and we at the exact time happened right and we at the exact time happened right and we at the exact time that the internet was emerging as a that the internet was emerging as a that the internet was emerging as a force and so there was a huge market force and so there was a huge market force and so there was a huge market suddenly of people who were you know on suddenly of people who were you know on suddenly of people who were you know on their web browsers looking at a screen their web browsers looking at a screen their web browsers looking at a screen all day um and wanted to hear people all day um and wanted to hear people all day um and wanted to hear people talking about terrorism September 11th talking about terrorism September 11th talking about terrorism September 11th Islam in the Middle East and then you Islam in the Middle East and then you Islam in the Middle East and then you know Afghanistan and Iraq and so on and know Afghanistan and Iraq and so on and know Afghanistan and Iraq and so on and it's not surprising that the people who it's not surprising that the people who it's not surprising that the people who filled that niche were mostly people who filled that niche were mostly people who filled that niche were mostly people who were in favor of the war on terror and were in favor of the war on terror and were in favor of the war on terror and then in favor of the war in Iraq. But I then in favor of the war in Iraq. But I then in favor of the war in Iraq. But I I think it really was that the event and I think it really was that the event and I think it really was that the event and the demand or the event and the the demand or the event and the the demand or the event and the technology sort of intersected to create technology sort of intersected to create technology sort of intersected to create this opening. Like I remember being an this opening. Like I remember being an this opening. Like I remember being an intern at National Review in the summer intern at National Review in the summer intern at National Review in the summer before September 11th, so summer of before September 11th, so summer of before September 11th, so summer of 2001, right? And so I think Sullivan was 2001, right? And so I think Sullivan was 2001, right? And so I think Sullivan was blogging. There were like two or three blogging. There were like two or three blogging. There were like two or three people who were When did you start

people who were When did you start people who were When did you start blogging? blogging? blogging? >> 03. >> 03. >> 03. >> 03. >> 03. >> 03. >> I was a freshman at UC Santa Cruz, >> I was a freshman at UC Santa Cruz, >> I was a freshman at UC Santa Cruz, >> right? Um, so in 2001, you had the >> right? Um, so in 2001, you had the >> right? Um, so in 2001, you had the internet and you had a few bloggers and internet and you had a few bloggers and internet and you had a few bloggers and I remember just sitting in, you know, I remember just sitting in, you know, I remember just sitting in, you know, the offices of again this like 50, the offices of again this like 50, the offices of again this like 50, 60-year-old magazine. I'm an intern. I 60-year-old magazine. I'm an intern. I 60-year-old magazine. I'm an intern. I have very little to do and you just sort have very little to do and you just sort have very little to do and you just sort of hit refresh, right? You hit refresh of hit refresh, right? You hit refresh of hit refresh, right? You hit refresh on Andrew Sullivan's blog and you see on Andrew Sullivan's blog and you see on Andrew Sullivan's blog and you see what you know, you see you see if he's what you know, you see you see if he's what you know, you see you see if he's posted something new. Mickey Couse, posted something new. Mickey Couse, posted something new. Mickey Couse, right? Cow Files was also probably one right? Cow Files was also probably one right? Cow Files was also probably one of the initial blogs at that point. But of the initial blogs at that point. But of the initial blogs at that point. But then September 11th happens and suddenly then September 11th happens and suddenly then September 11th happens and suddenly you just have a lot more people hitting you just have a lot more people hitting you just have a lot more people hitting refresh and having having this kind of refresh and having having this kind of refresh and having having this kind of demand. Well, I want to go before that. demand. Well, I want to go before that. demand. Well, I want to go before that. So, one of the things that I find So, one of the things that I find So, one of the things that I find interesting about this period is that interesting about this period is that interesting about this period is that this is one of these places where I this is one of these places where I this is one of these places where I think media has changed more than people think media has changed more than people think media has changed more than people really realize. There just wasn't a lot really realize. There just wasn't a lot really realize. There just wasn't a lot of political opinion accessible to most of political opinion accessible to most of political opinion accessible to most people. So it's like I grew up in Orange people. So it's like I grew up in Orange people. So it's like I grew up in Orange County, California. My family subscribed County, California. My family subscribed County, California. My family subscribed to the LA Times. Uh so we, you know, to the LA Times. Uh so we, you know, to the LA Times. Uh so we, you know, there's a op-ed page in the LA Times there's a op-ed page in the LA Times there's a op-ed page in the LA Times which I would read sometimes. We were which I would read sometimes. We were which I would read sometimes. We were not a family that got you know small not a family that got you know small not a family that got you know small circulation DC political circulation DC political circulation DC political >> the inflight magazine of Air Force One, >> the inflight magazine of Air Force One, >> the inflight magazine of Air Force One, the American Prospect, the National the American Prospect, the National the American Prospect, the National Review, which is a conservative um Review, which is a conservative um Review, which is a conservative um magazine that you've written a lot for magazine that you've written a lot for magazine that you've written a lot for um the Atlantic.

um the Atlantic. um the Atlantic. There was talk radio by that time, There was talk radio by that time, There was talk radio by that time, >> the Laura Ingram show, >> the Laura Ingram show, >> the Laura Ingram show, Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck. >> And now, America's most exciting radio >> And now, America's most exciting radio >> And now, America's most exciting radio talk show, The Savage Nation. talk show, The Savage Nation. talk show, The Savage Nation. >> But even that had only been on the scene >> But even that had only been on the scene >> But even that had only been on the scene for uh so long in it sort of like post for uh so long in it sort of like post for uh so long in it sort of like post Rush Limba form, Rush Limba form, Rush Limba form, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You know, when I was growing up there, >> You know, when I was growing up there, >> You know, when I was growing up there, Fox News was beginning to roll out, but Fox News was beginning to roll out, but Fox News was beginning to roll out, but it wasn't what it would eventually it wasn't what it would eventually it wasn't what it would eventually become. I remember MSNBC beginning. become. I remember MSNBC beginning. become. I remember MSNBC beginning. >> You had Crossfire. you had Crossfire as >> You had Crossfire. you had Crossfire as >> You had Crossfire. you had Crossfire as sort of a like that was what you watch sort of a like that was what you watch sort of a like that was what you watch if you were if you were if you were >> into MSNBC originally is Microsoft NBC. >> into MSNBC originally is Microsoft NBC. >> into MSNBC originally is Microsoft NBC. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I remember there being a it was >> And I remember there being a it was >> And I remember there being a it was about tech primarily and I remember about tech primarily and I remember about tech primarily and I remember watching a show with Solad O'Brien where watching a show with Solad O'Brien where watching a show with Solad O'Brien where she like had an animated co-host like a she like had an animated co-host like a she like had an animated co-host like a clip art co-host. clip art co-host. clip art co-host. >> WOW. WELCOME BACK TO THE show my friends >> WOW. WELCOME BACK TO THE show my friends >> WOW. WELCOME BACK TO THE show my friends and the SITE WITH SOLIDAD O'BRIEN. I'm and the SITE WITH SOLIDAD O'BRIEN. I'm and the SITE WITH SOLIDAD O'BRIEN. I'm her co-host. Can I May I call myself her co-host. Can I May I call myself her co-host. Can I May I call myself that? that? that? >> Sure. call yourself whatever you want. >> Sure. call yourself whatever you want. >> Sure. call yourself whatever you want. There may not be, but hey, what the There may not be, but hey, what the There may not be, but hey, what the heck, you know, heck, you know, heck, you know, >> and what I always saw blogging is doing >> and what I always saw blogging is doing >> and what I always saw blogging is doing is like there was an unmet demand for is like there was an unmet demand for is like there was an unmet demand for political opinion and particularly after political opinion and particularly after political opinion and particularly after 911 when people were really really 911 when people were really really 911 when people were really really interested in politics, really upset interested in politics, really upset interested in politics, really upset about what was happening, really about what was happening, really about what was happening, really uncertain about what was happening. And uncertain about what was happening. And uncertain about what was happening. And all of a sudden you can get a flood of all of a sudden you can get a flood of all of a sudden you can get a flood of it. Like now there is so much more it. Like now there is so much more it. Like now there is so much more opinion between X and Instagram and you

opinion between X and Instagram and you opinion between X and Instagram and you know Subseek and everything else that know Subseek and everything else that know Subseek and everything else that it's like the news that has been it's like the news that has been it's like the news that has been somewhat drowned out. somewhat drowned out. somewhat drowned out. >> But but then it was somewhat >> But but then it was somewhat >> But but then it was somewhat revolutionary that all of a sudden you revolutionary that all of a sudden you revolutionary that all of a sudden you could be you know refreshing and getting could be you know refreshing and getting could be you know refreshing and getting just throughout the day more and more just throughout the day more and more just throughout the day more and more and more commentary on what was going and more commentary on what was going and more commentary on what was going on. But the other thing that was on. But the other thing that was on. But the other thing that was revolutionary was that it was opinion, revolutionary was that it was opinion, revolutionary was that it was opinion, but it was also just a very different but it was also just a very different but it was also just a very different kind of argument from what you would get kind of argument from what you would get kind of argument from what you would get reading oped pages and even like small reading oped pages and even like small reading oped pages and even like small circulation journals. Early blogging was circulation journals. Early blogging was circulation journals. Early blogging was all about this kind of ongoing rolling all about this kind of ongoing rolling all about this kind of ongoing rolling debate where you'd write 4,000 words and debate where you'd write 4,000 words and debate where you'd write 4,000 words and someone else would come along and block someone else would come along and block someone else would come along and block quote, right? quote, right? quote, right? >> Very few people would write 4,000 words >> Very few people would write 4,000 words >> Very few people would write 4,000 words on a blog. That might have been your on a blog. That might have been your on a blog. That might have been your thing. thing. thing. >> I mean I Yeah. All right. Someone would >> I mean I Yeah. All right. Someone would >> I mean I Yeah. All right. Someone would write write write >> 300 words. >> 300 words. >> 300 words. >> I No, I mean I But this was also it >> I No, I mean I But this was also it >> I No, I mean I But this was also it right. You had more length. I mean there right. You had more length. I mean there right. You had more length. I mean there were people there were people early on were people there were people early on were people there were people early on es maybe I'm thinking too much of the es maybe I'm thinking too much of the es maybe I'm thinking too much of the war bloggers and not like the war war bloggers and not like the war war bloggers and not like the war bloggers were all about like let me give bloggers were all about like let me give bloggers were all about like let me give you 2500 words on how you know this you 2500 words on how you know this you 2500 words on how you know this event in ancient Greek history totally event in ancient Greek history totally event in ancient Greek history totally explains George W. Bush's brilliant plan explains George W. Bush's brilliant plan explains George W. Bush's brilliant plan to remake the Middle East. I mean, there to remake the Middle East. I mean, there to remake the Middle East. I mean, there was there was a lot of prolicks content, was there was a lot of prolicks content, was there was a lot of prolicks content, but maybe some of it was just created by but maybe some of it was just created by but maybe some of it was just created by this kind of you quote someone and you this kind of you quote someone and you this kind of you quote someone and you say why they're wrong, but people did say why they're wrong, but people did say why they're wrong, but people did this back and forth to each other this back and forth to each other this back and forth to each other constantly. It was hostile, but it was constantly. It was hostile, but it was constantly. It was hostile, but it was also, I think, at its best sort of also, I think, at its best sort of also, I think, at its best sort of really interestingly respectful because

really interestingly respectful because really interestingly respectful because you were you were putting the other you were you were putting the other you were you were putting the other side's words on your site. Like even if side's words on your site. Like even if side's words on your site. Like even if you even if you were doing it just to you even if you were doing it just to you even if you were doing it just to show what a total idiot they were and show what a total idiot they were and show what a total idiot they were and you know how terrible they were, you you know how terrible they were, you you know how terrible they were, you were still you were sort of like all were still you were sort of like all were still you were sort of like all right here's 200 words I'm quoting and right here's 200 words I'm quoting and right here's 200 words I'm quoting and I'm going to go line by line and I'm I'm going to go line by line and I'm I'm going to go line by line and I'm going to respond to every single line. going to respond to every single line. going to respond to every single line. That was I think a really distinctive That was I think a really distinctive That was I think a really distinctive part of it at least at least for the part of it at least at least for the part of it at least at least for the first few years. It was I thought a lot first few years. It was I thought a lot first few years. It was I thought a lot about why I think the blogosphere was about why I think the blogosphere was about why I think the blogosphere was healthier than what came after it and healthier than what came after it and healthier than what came after it and whether or not that was just I was in my whether or not that was just I was in my whether or not that was just I was in my 20s and people like what was happening 20s and people like what was happening 20s and people like what was happening when they were in their 20s, right? The when they were in their 20s, right? The when they were in their 20s, right? The music was better. The But but I do think music was better. The But but I do think music was better. The But but I do think this was to me the the reality of it. It this was to me the the reality of it. It this was to me the the reality of it. It was fundamentally conversational. You was fundamentally conversational. You was fundamentally conversational. You wrote things in the expectation that the wrote things in the expectation that the wrote things in the expectation that the people you were writing about would read people you were writing about would read people you were writing about would read them and they would answer you. And I them and they would answer you. And I them and they would answer you. And I don't think that is how a lot of media don't think that is how a lot of media don't think that is how a lot of media works now. Instead of talking to the works now. Instead of talking to the works now. Instead of talking to the people you're talking about, you talk people you're talking about, you talk people you're talking about, you talk about them, right? X or Twitter, you about them, right? X or Twitter, you about them, right? X or Twitter, you know, you quote tweet and know, you quote tweet and know, you quote tweet and >> and say, >> and say, >> and say, >> "Yeah, and you, you know, and and and >> "Yeah, and you, you know, and and and >> "Yeah, and you, you know, and and and dunk on them and then, you know, you dunk on them and then, you know, you dunk on them and then, you know, you look for the hearts and the retweets.

look for the hearts and the retweets. look for the hearts and the retweets. >> It it has really changed what the >> It it has really changed what the >> It it has really changed what the currency was. I mean, I remember so I currency was. I mean, I remember so I currency was. I mean, I remember so I began my blog in 2003 and the only way began my blog in 2003 and the only way began my blog in 2003 and the only way you could get readership, I mean, there you could get readership, I mean, there you could get readership, I mean, there were not algorithms. you were not were not algorithms. you were not were not algorithms. you were not winning Google search results, winning Google search results, winning Google search results, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> The way you got readership was through >> The way you got readership was through >> The way you got readership was through these links back and forth. And so, you these links back and forth. And so, you these links back and forth. And so, you know, if right now what happens is the know, if right now what happens is the know, if right now what happens is the reward and the way that audience is reward and the way that audience is reward and the way that audience is secured is, you know, you get people who secured is, you know, you get people who secured is, you know, you get people who agree with you to retweet it, to, you agree with you to retweet it, to, you agree with you to retweet it, to, you know, restack it, whatever it might be. know, restack it, whatever it might be. know, restack it, whatever it might be. Then, you know, I actually wanted I Then, you know, I actually wanted I Then, you know, I actually wanted I disagreed with Andrew Sullivan on all disagreed with Andrew Sullivan on all disagreed with Andrew Sullivan on all kinds of things. It was good for me if kinds of things. It was good for me if kinds of things. It was good for me if Andrew Sullivan like block quoted me and Andrew Sullivan like block quoted me and Andrew Sullivan like block quoted me and then argued and then you know I would then argued and then you know I would then argued and then you know I would block quote him and argue back and we block quote him and argue back and we block quote him and argue back and we would go back and forth and it wasn't would go back and forth and it wasn't would go back and forth and it wasn't that it can never be disrespectful. It that it can never be disrespectful. It that it can never be disrespectful. It was often heated was often heated was often heated >> but there was still a sense that you >> but there was still a sense that you >> but there was still a sense that you were in relationship. People talked were in relationship. People talked were in relationship. People talked about the blogersphere, right? about the blogersphere, right? about the blogersphere, right? >> You had a blog you had a blog role you >> You had a blog you had a blog role you >> You had a blog you had a blog role you put on your blog ecosystem. Yep. Well, put on your blog ecosystem. Yep. Well, put on your blog ecosystem. Yep. Well, so we we've had a lot of arguments over so we we've had a lot of arguments over so we we've had a lot of arguments over the years in our in our days as the years in our in our days as the years in our in our days as bloggers, but I thought it'd be fun to bloggers, but I thought it'd be fun to bloggers, but I thought it'd be fun to to go back to to one of them in to go back to to one of them in to go back to to one of them in particular on what I think it's fair to particular on what I think it's fair to particular on what I think it's fair to say is a forerunner to podcasting, which say is a forerunner to podcasting, which say is a forerunner to podcasting, which is Blogging Heads, the uh I knew I knew is Blogging Heads, the uh I knew I knew is Blogging Heads, the uh I knew I knew I was Robert. Yes. Robert Wright, who is I was Robert. Yes. Robert Wright, who is I was Robert. Yes. Robert Wright, who is >> older than us, a brilliant writer, and >> older than us, a brilliant writer, and >> older than us, a brilliant writer, and who basically invented podcasting who basically invented podcasting who basically invented podcasting without getting credit for it because without getting credit for it because without getting credit for it because the world was not quite ready. story of the world was not quite ready. story of the world was not quite ready. story of the moment is um John McCain's um

the moment is um John McCain's um the moment is um John McCain's um running the most disgraceful campaign in running the most disgraceful campaign in running the most disgraceful campaign in American history possibly um maybe in American history possibly um maybe in American history possibly um maybe in world history world history world history >> global planetary universal um universal >> global planetary universal um universal >> global planetary universal um universal history I think is is where we're at history I think is is where we're at history I think is is where we're at basically basically basically >> right so it's so it's been pretty >> right so it's so it's been pretty >> right so it's so it's been pretty disgraceful so basically McCain has um disgraceful so basically McCain has um disgraceful so basically McCain has um there's been sort of a flurry of ads there's been sort of a flurry of ads there's been sort of a flurry of ads statements um sort of back and forths statements um sort of back and forths statements um sort of back and forths that have in different ways that have in different ways that have in different ways you know, from from the McCain campaign you know, from from the McCain campaign you know, from from the McCain campaign sort of shaded the truth um or not sort of shaded the truth um or not sort of shaded the truth um or not shaded the truth, you know, have been shaded the truth, you know, have been shaded the truth, you know, have been outright lies, outright lies, outright lies, >> redacted it is, I think, the word you're >> redacted it is, I think, the word you're >> redacted it is, I think, the word you're looking for, right? looking for, right? looking for, right? >> Enacted the truth, >> Enacted the truth, >> Enacted the truth, >> right? And so there's been and so, you >> right? And so there's been and so, you >> right? And so there's been and so, you know, all of the all the great and good know, all of the all the great and good know, all of the all the great and good observers, the sort of Joe Klein and um observers, the sort of Joe Klein and um observers, the sort of Joe Klein and um EJ Deion and so on have have weighed in EJ Deion and so on have have weighed in EJ Deion and so on have have weighed in with um with remarks on I think I think with um with remarks on I think I think with um with remarks on I think I think Richard Cohen is the latest today. He Richard Cohen is the latest today. He Richard Cohen is the latest today. He has a column. I think it basically says, has a column. I think it basically says, has a column. I think it basically says, you know, I used to be in the tank for you know, I used to be in the tank for you know, I used to be in the tank for McCain. Um, but uh now he's sold his McCain. Um, but uh now he's sold his McCain. Um, but uh now he's sold his soul to Satan and um, you know, I'm no soul to Satan and um, you know, I'm no soul to Satan and um, you know, I'm no I'm no longer in the tank and so on. So, I'm no longer in the tank and so on. So, I'm no longer in the tank and so on. So, it's basically the final the final it's basically the final the final it's basically the final the final divorce between John McCain and the divorce between John McCain and the divorce between John McCain and the reporters who used to love him.

reporters who used to love him. reporters who used to love him. >> So, I I want I want to I want to say on >> So, I I want I want to I want to say on >> So, I I want I want to I want to say on behalf of myself, right, that for those behalf of myself, right, that for those behalf of myself, right, that for those >> for like I I'm being ironical in that >> for like I I'm being ironical in that >> for like I I'm being ironical in that commentary. And it is it is a simpler commentary. And it is it is a simpler commentary. And it is it is a simpler time where you as Ezra Klein were part time where you as Ezra Klein were part time where you as Ezra Klein were part of a vast liberal conspiracy bent on of a vast liberal conspiracy bent on of a vast liberal conspiracy bent on portraying the war hero John McCain as portraying the war hero John McCain as portraying the war hero John McCain as the most dangerous politician in the most dangerous politician in the most dangerous politician in American history. American history. American history. >> I think we're both being pretty >> I think we're both being pretty >> I think we're both being pretty skeptical by a champion. No, I I don't skeptical by a champion. No, I I don't skeptical by a champion. No, I I don't remember whether you were part of it or remember whether you were part of it or remember whether you were part of it or not, but yeah. not, but yeah. not, but yeah. >> But it it >> But it it >> But it it >> it's kind of amazing how different that >> it's kind of amazing how different that >> it's kind of amazing how different that moment is when you can imagine that moment is when you can imagine that moment is when you can imagine that there were like huge eruptions over the there were like huge eruptions over the there were like huge eruptions over the level of negative campaigning from level of negative campaigning from level of negative campaigning from McCain to Obama. I always feel this way McCain to Obama. I always feel this way McCain to Obama. I always feel this way when people talk about the Obama Romney when people talk about the Obama Romney when people talk about the Obama Romney campaigning where it all just seems so campaigning where it all just seems so campaigning where it all just seems so compared to where we eventually went. compared to where we eventually went. compared to where we eventually went. >> Right. But this is, you know, part of >> Right. But this is, you know, part of >> Right. But this is, you know, part of part of the argument of many of Donald part of the argument of many of Donald part of the argument of many of Donald Trump's supporters is that it was Trump's supporters is that it was Trump's supporters is that it was precisely because precisely because precisely because um liberals insisted that first McCain um liberals insisted that first McCain um liberals insisted that first McCain and then Mitt Romney were history's and then Mitt Romney were history's and then Mitt Romney were history's greatest monsters that you know that's greatest monsters that you know that's greatest monsters that you know that's how you got Trump.

how you got Trump. how you got Trump. >> But the right it was so kind. >> But the right it was so kind. >> But the right it was so kind. >> We don't need we don't need to argue we >> We don't need we don't need to argue we >> We don't need we don't need to argue we don't need to argue about this. This is don't need to argue about this. This is don't need to argue about this. This is this is yeah this is my office at the this is yeah this is my office at the this is yeah this is my office at the Atlantic. I think that's his copy of Atlantic. I think that's his copy of Atlantic. I think that's his copy of Grand New Party back there. But in in Grand New Party back there. But in in Grand New Party back there. But in in but again with the sense that like the but again with the sense that like the but again with the sense that like the point was to the point was that this was point was to the point was that this was point was to the point was that this was somewhat extracurricular and it was sort somewhat extracurricular and it was sort somewhat extracurricular and it was sort of you know to be Norman Moresesque, of you know to be Norman Moresesque, of you know to be Norman Moresesque, right? It's sort of an advertisement for right? It's sort of an advertisement for right? It's sort of an advertisement for yourself, right? that then in theory is yourself, right? that then in theory is yourself, right? that then in theory is supposed to cash out in promotions and supposed to cash out in promotions and supposed to cash out in promotions and new jobs at the existing institutions new jobs at the existing institutions new jobs at the existing institutions which is what happened again to that which is what happened again to that which is what happened again to that cohort which is why I ended up here at cohort which is why I ended up here at cohort which is why I ended up here at the New York Times and you ended up at the New York Times and you ended up at the New York Times and you ended up at the Washington Post. the Washington Post. the Washington Post. >> So you are hired as the youngest ever >> So you are hired as the youngest ever >> So you are hired as the youngest ever opinion columnist at the New York Times. opinion columnist at the New York Times. opinion columnist at the New York Times. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> I believe this is 2009. >> I believe this is 2009. >> I believe this is 2009. >> Yes, this is 2009. Yes. >> Yes, this is 2009. Yes. >> Yes, this is 2009. Yes. >> But but you're also in a in a funny part >> But but you're also in a in a funny part >> But but you're also in a in a funny part of this. So throughout your career, I of this. So throughout your career, I of this. So throughout your career, I think it'll continue to be the case, you think it'll continue to be the case, you think it'll continue to be the case, you are the more conservative voice at are the more conservative voice at are the more conservative voice at institutions institutions institutions that are understood as broadly more that are understood as broadly more that are understood as broadly more liberal, right? I think that's true for liberal, right? I think that's true for liberal, right? I think that's true for the Atlantic. I think it's true for the the Atlantic. I think it's true for the the Atlantic. I think it's true for the New York Times opinion page. People New York Times opinion page. People New York Times opinion page. People would say, would say, would say, >> I wrote I wrote the conservative column >> I wrote I wrote the conservative column >> I wrote I wrote the conservative column for the Harvard Crimson. It goes all the for the Harvard Crimson. It goes all the for the Harvard Crimson. It goes all the way back.

way back. way back. >> I'm curious about that experience. Tell >> I'm curious about that experience. Tell >> I'm curious about that experience. Tell me what doing that for as many years as me what doing that for as many years as me what doing that for as many years as writing for liberal audiences as a writing for liberal audiences as a writing for liberal audiences as a conservative, you know, a pro-life conservative, you know, a pro-life conservative, you know, a pro-life Catholic conservative. Let's start here. Catholic conservative. Let's start here. Catholic conservative. Let's start here. What did it teach you about liberals? What did it teach you about liberals? What did it teach you about liberals? So, I like liberals. So, I like liberals. So, I like liberals. >> That was a long pause after that. >> That was a long pause after that. >> That was a long pause after that. >> No, I Well, it's >> No, I Well, it's >> No, I Well, it's I spend I mean, the first thing to to be I spend I mean, the first thing to to be I spend I mean, the first thing to to be said is that I always regarded this kind said is that I always regarded this kind said is that I always regarded this kind of role as just an incredible of role as just an incredible of role as just an incredible opportunity like as a baseline, right? opportunity like as a baseline, right? opportunity like as a baseline, right? where you write where you write where you write you write opinions in order to argue and you write opinions in order to argue and you write opinions in order to argue and persuade. That that's what opinion persuade. That that's what opinion persuade. That that's what opinion journalism as far as I can see is journalism as far as I can see is journalism as far as I can see is supposed to do. And you know it's an supposed to do. And you know it's an supposed to do. And you know it's an illusion to imagine that anyone has illusion to imagine that anyone has illusion to imagine that anyone has their whole worldview altered by an their whole worldview altered by an their whole worldview altered by an 800word column or anything remotely like 800word column or anything remotely like 800word column or anything remotely like that. But but still on the margins at that. But but still on the margins at that. But but still on the margins at the very least, right? You're trying to the very least, right? You're trying to the very least, right? You're trying to pull readers closer to your perspective.

pull readers closer to your perspective. pull readers closer to your perspective. um move people to some degree, expose um move people to some degree, expose um move people to some degree, expose people to ideas they wouldn't otherwise people to ideas they wouldn't otherwise people to ideas they wouldn't otherwise cover. And in that sense, there's just cover. And in that sense, there's just cover. And in that sense, there's just no better way to do it than to be the no better way to do it than to be the no better way to do it than to be the person at a given publication who has person at a given publication who has person at a given publication who has heterodox views relative to their heterodox views relative to their heterodox views relative to their audience. And look, obviously there's audience. And look, obviously there's audience. And look, obviously there's lots of conservatives who read The lots of conservatives who read The lots of conservatives who read The Atlantic when I was there. There's lots Atlantic when I was there. There's lots Atlantic when I was there. There's lots and lots of conservatives who read the and lots of conservatives who read the and lots of conservatives who read the New York Times. So if you're if you're New York Times. So if you're if you're New York Times. So if you're if you're working for a big publication, you're working for a big publication, you're working for a big publication, you're never exclusively speaking to people who never exclusively speaking to people who never exclusively speaking to people who disagree with you. But yeah, clearly disagree with you. But yeah, clearly disagree with you. But yeah, clearly clearly I'm speaking to a lot of people clearly I'm speaking to a lot of people clearly I'm speaking to a lot of people who do disagree with me. And that's a who do disagree with me. And that's a who do disagree with me. And that's a gift. And then you have to remember that gift. And then you have to remember that gift. And then you have to remember that it's a gift because it's also a very it's a gift because it's also a very it's a gift because it's also a very stressful stressful stressful situation, right? the claims you make situation, right? the claims you make situation, right? the claims you make are going to be exactingly are going to be exactingly are going to be exactingly scrutinized in a way that is maybe less scrutinized in a way that is maybe less scrutinized in a way that is maybe less true of people who sort of assume that true of people who sort of assume that true of people who sort of assume that the audience is going to be on their the audience is going to be on their the audience is going to be on their side. side. side. >> Well, what have you learned about >> Well, what have you learned about >> Well, what have you learned about writing persuasively?

writing persuasively? writing persuasively? >> I mean, this is benal advice, but it's >> I mean, this is benal advice, but it's >> I mean, this is benal advice, but it's still the fundamental thing. It is to still the fundamental thing. It is to still the fundamental thing. It is to argue effectively, you need to argue effectively, you need to argue effectively, you need to understand why people you disagree with understand why people you disagree with understand why people you disagree with hold the views that they do. And you hold the views that they do. And you hold the views that they do. And you need to start from a version of their need to start from a version of their need to start from a version of their argument that is high-minded rather than argument that is high-minded rather than argument that is high-minded rather than low-minded. And that is sort of the best low-minded. And that is sort of the best low-minded. And that is sort of the best version of the perspective that they version of the perspective that they version of the perspective that they hold. And that doesn't mean that you hold. And that doesn't mean that you hold. And that doesn't mean that you can't think that like secretly or can't think that like secretly or can't think that like secretly or subconsciously subconsciously subconsciously they hold their opinion for bad or they hold their opinion for bad or they hold their opinion for bad or wicked reasons or because they want to, wicked reasons or because they want to, wicked reasons or because they want to, you know, just destroy their enemies and you know, just destroy their enemies and you know, just destroy their enemies and salt the earth. Like you can believe salt the earth. Like you can believe salt the earth. Like you can believe that that exists somewhere in their that that exists somewhere in their that that exists somewhere in their mind. But to argue with them, you have mind. But to argue with them, you have mind. But to argue with them, you have to actually engage with the version of to actually engage with the version of to actually engage with the version of the argument that they themselves would the argument that they themselves would the argument that they themselves would put forward as their own best defense. put forward as their own best defense. put forward as their own best defense. Right? So like the obvious examples, Right? So like the obvious examples, Right? So like the obvious examples, I'll pick one from the right and one I'll pick one from the right and one I'll pick one from the right and one from the left. Right? So, if you are from the left. Right? So, if you are from the left. Right? So, if you are pro-choice and you want to argue with pro-choice and you want to argue with pro-choice and you want to argue with prolifers, like actually argue with prolifers, like actually argue with prolifers, like actually argue with them, you cannot start from a them, you cannot start from a them, you cannot start from a description of the pro-life position description of the pro-life position description of the pro-life position that says the point of pro-life politics that says the point of pro-life politics that says the point of pro-life politics is to subjugate women and punish them is to subjugate women and punish them is to subjugate women and punish them for sexual immorality. You're allowed to for sexual immorality. You're allowed to for sexual immorality. You're allowed to think that that's out there and like is think that that's out there and like is think that that's out there and like is part of, you know, the socially part of, you know, the socially part of, you know, the socially conservative psyche. You're allowed to conservative psyche. You're allowed to conservative psyche. You're allowed to think whatever you want, but you're not think whatever you want, but you're not think whatever you want, but you're not going to get anywhere arguing unless you going to get anywhere arguing unless you going to get anywhere arguing unless you start with the fact that like pro-life start with the fact that like pro-life start with the fact that like pro-life people think uh unborn human lives are people think uh unborn human lives are people think uh unborn human lives are human and worthy of legal protection in

human and worthy of legal protection in human and worthy of legal protection in terms of being human. That's just where terms of being human. That's just where terms of being human. That's just where you have to start, right? And then to you have to start, right? And then to you have to start, right? And then to take to take an issue from the other take to take an issue from the other take to take an issue from the other direction, if you are a um conservative direction, if you are a um conservative direction, if you are a um conservative opponent of liberal views on opponent of liberal views on opponent of liberal views on immigration, you're allowed to think immigration, you're allowed to think immigration, you're allowed to think that liberals are politically that liberals are politically that liberals are politically machavelian cynics who are, you know, machavelian cynics who are, you know, machavelian cynics who are, you know, bringing in lots of illegal immigrants bringing in lots of illegal immigrants bringing in lots of illegal immigrants to vote Democratic. But you're never to vote Democratic. But you're never to vote Democratic. But you're never going to get anywhere arguing unless you going to get anywhere arguing unless you going to get anywhere arguing unless you start with start with start with what liberals themselves would say, what liberals themselves would say, what liberals themselves would say, which is that, you know, immigration is which is that, you know, immigration is which is that, you know, immigration is a humanitarian and economic benefit to a humanitarian and economic benefit to a humanitarian and economic benefit to immigrants and to the country that immigrants and to the country that immigrants and to the country that receives them. That, you know, that's receives them. That, you know, that's receives them. That, you know, that's that's like where you have to start. that's like where you have to start. that's like where you have to start. That's it. That's the the whole the That's it. That's the the whole the That's it. That's the the whole the whole secret. And again, how effective whole secret. And again, how effective whole secret. And again, how effective the arguments are that you end up making the arguments are that you end up making the arguments are that you end up making from that starting point, I don't know. from that starting point, I don't know. from that starting point, I don't know. But I I do think generally that But I I do think generally that But I I do think generally that the act of sort of sustained attempted the act of sort of sustained attempted the act of sort of sustained attempted good faith interaction good faith interaction good faith interaction does even in totally polarized does even in totally polarized does even in totally polarized environments environments environments yield a kind of you know reasonably yield a kind of you know reasonably yield a kind of you know reasonably favorable response. Like it's not the favorable response. Like it's not the favorable response. Like it's not the case that it that you can't talk across case that it that you can't talk across case that it that you can't talk across partisan divides. It's it's challenging partisan divides. It's it's challenging partisan divides. It's it's challenging and difficult and sometimes exhausting.

and difficult and sometimes exhausting. and difficult and sometimes exhausting. Um, but people are open to it. Um, but people are open to it. Um, but people are open to it. >> I think relatively few opinion writers >> I think relatively few opinion writers >> I think relatively few opinion writers are actually engaged in ongoing efforts are actually engaged in ongoing efforts are actually engaged in ongoing efforts at persuasion. I think typically people at persuasion. I think typically people at persuasion. I think typically people who think they're doing that are engaged who think they're doing that are engaged who think they're doing that are engaged in ongoing efforts at affirmation. And in ongoing efforts at affirmation. And in ongoing efforts at affirmation. And there are things around the edges where there are things around the edges where there are things around the edges where they're sort of putting their spin on they're sort of putting their spin on they're sort of putting their spin on it. But it it starts from a a kind of it. But it it starts from a a kind of it. But it it starts from a a kind of locust of major agreement and then locust of major agreement and then locust of major agreement and then you're sort of like shifting in one you're sort of like shifting in one you're sort of like shifting in one direction or another. What I think has direction or another. What I think has direction or another. What I think has been interesting to watch across your been interesting to watch across your been interesting to watch across your career is that you actually have been career is that you actually have been career is that you actually have been engaged in a very very long effort at engaged in a very very long effort at engaged in a very very long effort at persuasion. You are almost always in persuasion. You are almost always in persuasion. You are almost always in relationship with an audience that relationship with an audience that relationship with an audience that mostly doesn't mostly doesn't mostly doesn't >> a profoundly a profoundly successful >> a profoundly a profoundly successful >> a profoundly a profoundly successful exercise. say you've been most exercise. say you've been most exercise. say you've been most successful. What What would you say you successful. What What would you say you successful. What What would you say you feel you have been most persuasive feel you have been most persuasive feel you have been most persuasive about? about? about? >> I I don't honestly know exactly how to >> I I don't honestly know exactly how to >> I I don't honestly know exactly how to judge that. I mean, I I think that the judge that. I mean, I I think that the judge that. I mean, I I think that the So, all right. On the one hand, there's So, all right. On the one hand, there's So, all right. On the one hand, there's a bunch of things that have happened a bunch of things that have happened a bunch of things that have happened since I took the Times job that sort of since I took the Times job that sort of since I took the Times job that sort of fulfilled my expectations to some degree fulfilled my expectations to some degree fulfilled my expectations to some degree about like what was going to happen in about like what was going to happen in about like what was going to happen in American politics and where certain American politics and where certain American politics and where certain things would go.

things would go. things would go. uh above all the sort of populist uh above all the sort of populist uh above all the sort of populist nationalist transformation of the nationalist transformation of the nationalist transformation of the Republican party. Republican party. Republican party. >> It's worth noting here for people who >> It's worth noting here for people who >> It's worth noting here for people who don't know, you and your former don't know, you and your former don't know, you and your former co-blogger Ryhan had written a book co-blogger Ryhan had written a book co-blogger Ryhan had written a book called Grand New Party. called Grand New Party. called Grand New Party. >> We we were we wrote a book, but beyond >> We we were we wrote a book, but beyond >> We we were we wrote a book, but beyond the book, we were just sort of involved. the book, we were just sort of involved. the book, we were just sort of involved. So this this wasn't persuasion directed So this this wasn't persuasion directed So this this wasn't persuasion directed at liberals, honestly. This was at liberals, honestly. This was at liberals, honestly. This was persuasion directed more at our fellow persuasion directed more at our fellow persuasion directed more at our fellow conservatives and saying, "Look, the conservatives and saying, "Look, the conservatives and saying, "Look, the tectonic plates under the Republican tectonic plates under the Republican tectonic plates under the Republican party are are shifting. The party has to party are are shifting. The party has to party are are shifting. The party has to deal with the fact that it has a more deal with the fact that it has a more deal with the fact that it has a more working-class coalition. It has to adapt working-class coalition. It has to adapt working-class coalition. It has to adapt its policy and rhetoric, all these kind its policy and rhetoric, all these kind its policy and rhetoric, all these kind of things. of things. of things. But in fact, that vision was fulfilled But in fact, that vision was fulfilled But in fact, that vision was fulfilled in a way that had absolutely nothing to in a way that had absolutely nothing to in a way that had absolutely nothing to do with us. It was not the case that we do with us. It was not the case that we do with us. It was not the case that we wrote a bunch of columns, persuaded a wrote a bunch of columns, persuaded a wrote a bunch of columns, persuaded a bunch of Republicans to become more bunch of Republicans to become more bunch of Republicans to become more populist, and lo and behold, you know, a populist, and lo and behold, you know, a populist, and lo and behold, you know, a populist version of Marco Rubio was populist version of Marco Rubio was populist version of Marco Rubio was elected president in 2016. No, obviously elected president in 2016. No, obviously elected president in 2016. No, obviously our prophecies were fulfilled by Donald our prophecies were fulfilled by Donald our prophecies were fulfilled by Donald Trump and the whole Trump phenomenon was Trump and the whole Trump phenomenon was Trump and the whole Trump phenomenon was just was and for the most part remains just was and for the most part remains just was and for the most part remains pretty disconnected from the work of um pretty disconnected from the work of um pretty disconnected from the work of um you know opinion mongers and wouldbe you know opinion mongers and wouldbe you know opinion mongers and wouldbe intellectuals. So there's that. I that's intellectuals. So there's that. I that's intellectuals. So there's that. I that's that's sort of one that's sort of one that's sort of one one area of one area of one area of um success of a kind, but not the um success of a kind, but not the um success of a kind, but not the success that that I looked for. I think success that that I looked for. I think success that that I looked for. I think that that that >> Well, stop there for a second. In what >> Well, stop there for a second. In what >> Well, stop there for a second. In what way was it not right? You put some flesh

way was it not right? You put some flesh way was it not right? You put some flesh on that. So you wrote this book. You on that. So you wrote this book. You on that. So you wrote this book. You you're sort of involved in an effort to you're sort of involved in an effort to you're sort of involved in an effort to say the Republican party should not be say the Republican party should not be say the Republican party should not be as doctrinally libertarian. It shouldn't as doctrinally libertarian. It shouldn't as doctrinally libertarian. It shouldn't be all about cutting Medicare and be all about cutting Medicare and be all about cutting Medicare and cutting social security. That it had cutting social security. That it had cutting social security. That it had this opportunity at a time when it did this opportunity at a time when it did this opportunity at a time when it did not win majorities of workingass voters not win majorities of workingass voters not win majorities of workingass voters to shift its policies in a way that to shift its policies in a way that to shift its policies in a way that would make it more appealing to them. would make it more appealing to them. would make it more appealing to them. And the kinds of shifts that you and And the kinds of shifts that you and And the kinds of shifts that you and Ryhan advocated had to do with things Ryhan advocated had to do with things Ryhan advocated had to do with things like immigration, had to do with things like immigration, had to do with things like immigration, had to do with things like tax credits for kids, had to do like tax credits for kids, had to do like tax credits for kids, had to do with sort of shifting it to a more pro-f with sort of shifting it to a more pro-f with sort of shifting it to a more pro-f family um more concerned with the family um more concerned with the family um more concerned with the problems of working-class families from problems of working-class families from problems of working-class families from I would say a more traditionalist I would say a more traditionalist I would say a more traditionalist perspective maybe than the left is. So, perspective maybe than the left is. So, perspective maybe than the left is. So, how would you describe what happened of how would you describe what happened of how would you describe what happened of that and then what happened that created that and then what happened that created that and then what happened that created the the working class shift? because the the working class shift? because the the working class shift? because Republicans do now win majorities of Republicans do now win majorities of Republicans do now win majorities of working- class voters or Trump at least working- class voters or Trump at least working- class voters or Trump at least does. Um does. Um does. Um what drove that that maybe was not in what drove that that maybe was not in what drove that that maybe was not in your prescription? Well, so one part of your prescription? Well, so one part of your prescription? Well, so one part of what drove it was just that what drove it was just that what drove it was just that Trump picked or intuited a different set Trump picked or intuited a different set Trump picked or intuited a different set of issues to focus on than Ryhan and I of issues to focus on than Ryhan and I of issues to focus on than Ryhan and I would have would have favored. But but would have would have favored. But but would have would have favored. But but generally we were focused on sort of generally we were focused on sort of generally we were focused on sort of family policy, wage subsidies, these family policy, wage subsidies, these family policy, wage subsidies, these kind of things. And Trump was just kind of things. And Trump was just kind of things. And Trump was just focused on obviously like trade tariffs focused on obviously like trade tariffs focused on obviously like trade tariffs and re-industrialization

and re-industrialization and re-industrialization um in a way that I don't think we we I um in a way that I don't think we we I um in a way that I don't think we we I don't think we fully anticipated how don't think we fully anticipated how don't think we fully anticipated how much some of those arguments would much some of those arguments would much some of those arguments would resonate in 2016. I don't know how much resonate in 2016. I don't know how much resonate in 2016. I don't know how much they resonate now, but in 2016, I think they resonate now, but in 2016, I think they resonate now, but in 2016, I think big part of the country was still big part of the country was still big part of the country was still getting over the shock of the opening to getting over the shock of the opening to getting over the shock of the opening to China. And there was just a real China. And there was just a real China. And there was just a real percentage for Trump in flying around percentage for Trump in flying around percentage for Trump in flying around the Midwest, going to places that had the Midwest, going to places that had the Midwest, going to places that had been hammered and saying, "I'm just been hammered and saying, "I'm just been hammered and saying, "I'm just going to bring back your jobs." Right? going to bring back your jobs." Right? going to bring back your jobs." Right? >> We're going to stop businesses from >> We're going to stop businesses from >> We're going to stop businesses from leaving our country. And we are they are leaving our country. And we are they are leaving our country. And we are they are being being being and they are being drained out of our and they are being drained out of our and they are being drained out of our country. our jobs, our money, our base, country. our jobs, our money, our base, country. our jobs, our money, our base, and our factories. We are we're going to and our factories. We are we're going to and our factories. We are we're going to stop it. stop it. stop it. >> And that was again a different message >> And that was again a different message >> And that was again a different message from saying we need to use government from saying we need to use government from saying we need to use government policy to help people form families. policy to help people form families. policy to help people form families. >> And I'm genuinely angry at the people >> And I'm genuinely angry at the people >> And I'm genuinely angry at the people who took who took who took >> and I'm right. Well, that too, right? So >> and I'm right. Well, that too, right? So >> and I'm right. Well, that too, right? So then there's there's a more substantial then there's there's a more substantial then there's there's a more substantial anger. There's more substantial anger. There's more substantial anger. There's more substantial scapegoating. scapegoating. scapegoating. >> They're moving to other places. A lot of >> They're moving to other places. A lot of >> They're moving to other places. A lot of them are moving to Mexico. Don't them are moving to Mexico. Don't them are moving to Mexico. Don't underestimate. It's like the new China underestimate. It's like the new China underestimate. It's like the new China uh on a smaller level, but like the new uh on a smaller level, but like the new uh on a smaller level, but like the new China.

China. China. >> So our our view wasn't that you should >> So our our view wasn't that you should >> So our our view wasn't that you should never cut Medicare and Social Security. never cut Medicare and Social Security. never cut Medicare and Social Security. It was more that if you're going to cut It was more that if you're going to cut It was more that if you're going to cut Medicare or reform Medicare, you should Medicare or reform Medicare, you should Medicare or reform Medicare, you should be doing it not to just pass a new upper be doing it not to just pass a new upper be doing it not to just pass a new upper bracket tax cut, but to free up more bracket tax cut, but to free up more bracket tax cut, but to free up more money to help working families, right, money to help working families, right, money to help working families, right, would be would be how the argument would would be would be how the argument would would be would be how the argument would go. And Trump just said, "No, you know, go. And Trump just said, "No, you know, go. And Trump just said, "No, you know, we're never cutting these things, we're never cutting these things, we're never cutting these things, right?" And so he outflanked all of his right?" And so he outflanked all of his right?" And so he outflanked all of his Republican primary opponents by Republican primary opponents by Republican primary opponents by realizing that a big part of the realizing that a big part of the realizing that a big part of the Republican base wasn't on board with Republican base wasn't on board with Republican base wasn't on board with Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. But what that Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. But what that Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. But what that did was basically create a kind of a did was basically create a kind of a did was basically create a kind of a more popular but much more fiscally more popular but much more fiscally more popular but much more fiscally unsustainable and in the end I think unsustainable and in the end I think unsustainable and in the end I think sort of unproductive policy mix on the sort of unproductive policy mix on the sort of unproductive policy mix on the right where the right sort of defines right where the right sort of defines right where the right sort of defines itself as defenders of old people's itself as defenders of old people's itself as defenders of old people's entitlements rather than people who are entitlements rather than people who are entitlements rather than people who are eager to cut it and then has no space eager to cut it and then has no space eager to cut it and then has no space left for for a lot of the policy ideas left for for a lot of the policy ideas left for for a lot of the policy ideas that that we would have favored. So that that we would have favored. So that that we would have favored. So that's part of part of what happened.

that's part of part of what happened. that's part of part of what happened. The other thing that happens, right, is The other thing that happens, right, is The other thing that happens, right, is that we were trying to sort of craft, that we were trying to sort of craft, that we were trying to sort of craft, you know, I think you use the word you know, I think you use the word you know, I think you use the word traditional, I would have said sort of traditional, I would have said sort of traditional, I would have said sort of like a kind of moderate social like a kind of moderate social like a kind of moderate social conservatism conservatism conservatism that um was compatible with the that um was compatible with the that um was compatible with the Republican party's sort of religious Republican party's sort of religious Republican party's sort of religious religious base and pro-life commitments religious base and pro-life commitments religious base and pro-life commitments and so on, but tried to start from there and so on, but tried to start from there and so on, but tried to start from there and broaden into, you know, broader and broaden into, you know, broader and broaden into, you know, broader support for two parent families and support for two parent families and support for two parent families and marriage and these these kind of things. marriage and these these kind of things. marriage and these these kind of things. What actually happened was that for What actually happened was that for What actually happened was that for about 10 years social conservatism was about 10 years social conservatism was about 10 years social conservatism was just routed in the US. It lost I mean it just routed in the US. It lost I mean it just routed in the US. It lost I mean it lost the argument over samesex marriage lost the argument over samesex marriage lost the argument over samesex marriage most prominently but it lost a lot of most prominently but it lost a lot of most prominently but it lost a lot of different arguments. Like if you just different arguments. Like if you just different arguments. Like if you just look at the trends in the 2010s on you look at the trends in the 2010s on you look at the trends in the 2010s on you know all kinds of questions from you know all kinds of questions from you know all kinds of questions from you know drug use all the way to like know drug use all the way to like know drug use all the way to like polyamory you know not that the country polyamory you know not that the country polyamory you know not that the country is universally pro polyamory but you can is universally pro polyamory but you can is universally pro polyamory but you can you can see that leftward shift all over you can see that leftward shift all over you can see that leftward shift all over it ends up showing up on abortion too it ends up showing up on abortion too it ends up showing up on abortion too right comes in on the one hand as a kind right comes in on the one hand as a kind right comes in on the one hand as a kind of someone who speaks to that who says of someone who speaks to that who says of someone who speaks to that who says to embattled social conservatives and to embattled social conservatives and to embattled social conservatives and religious conservatives you're losing religious conservatives you're losing religious conservatives you're losing the culture and you need to live with the culture and you need to live with the culture and you need to live with that and just have me as like the tough that and just have me as like the tough that and just have me as like the tough guy who will defend you. Um but then guy who will defend you. Um but then guy who will defend you. Um but then that the the other thing that happens is that the the other thing that happens is that the the other thing that happens is that uh liberalism and progressivism that uh liberalism and progressivism that uh liberalism and progressivism having won those victories then having won those victories then having won those victories then radicalize further and say well you know radicalize further and say well you know radicalize further and say well you know what happened on same-sex marriage where what happened on same-sex marriage where what happened on same-sex marriage where we sort of shift the country completely we sort of shift the country completely we sort of shift the country completely in our direction in an incredible amount

in our direction in an incredible amount in our direction in an incredible amount of time and then declare that you know of time and then declare that you know of time and then declare that you know the other side are bigots and we don't the other side are bigots and we don't the other side are bigots and we don't need to talk to them anymore. We can do need to talk to them anymore. We can do need to talk to them anymore. We can do that with a lot of other issues too. And that with a lot of other issues too. And that with a lot of other issues too. And that gets you the woke era and then it that gets you the woke era and then it that gets you the woke era and then it gets you the backlash against the woke gets you the backlash against the woke gets you the backlash against the woke era. But like the backlash against the era. But like the backlash against the era. But like the backlash against the woke era is very far removed from a kind woke era is very far removed from a kind woke era is very far removed from a kind of stable social conservatism of stable social conservatism of stable social conservatism like sort of building building like sort of building building like sort of building building something. I mean the backlash against something. I mean the backlash against something. I mean the backlash against the woke era is then you know everybody the woke era is then you know everybody the woke era is then you know everybody from Catholic traditionalists to pot from Catholic traditionalists to pot from Catholic traditionalists to pot smoking libertarians right who don't who smoking libertarians right who don't who smoking libertarians right who don't who don't like the woke but it's not a I don't like the woke but it's not a I don't like the woke but it's not a I don't know it it's not sort of a don't know it it's not sort of a don't know it it's not sort of a coherent basis for governing the country coherent basis for governing the country coherent basis for governing the country in ways that I think have become totally in ways that I think have become totally in ways that I think have become totally apparent in the second Trump term. apparent in the second Trump term. apparent in the second Trump term. >> Well, you have this famous 2016 tweet. >> Well, you have this famous 2016 tweet. >> Well, you have this famous 2016 tweet. You write a thought sent back in time to You write a thought sent back in time to You write a thought sent back in time to the theocracy panic of 2005. You seem the theocracy panic of 2005. You seem the theocracy panic of 2005. You seem like you're enjoying this interview. If like you're enjoying this interview. If like you're enjoying this interview. If you dislike the religious right, wait you dislike the religious right, wait you dislike the religious right, wait till you meet the post-religious right.

till you meet the post-religious right. till you meet the post-religious right. >> Unpack both sides of that. I mean, for >> Unpack both sides of that. I mean, for >> Unpack both sides of that. I mean, for people maybe who don't really remember people maybe who don't really remember people maybe who don't really remember what you're calling the theocracy panic what you're calling the theocracy panic what you're calling the theocracy panic of05. What was that? Um, but then the of05. What was that? Um, but then the of05. What was that? Um, but then the religious right versus the religious right versus the religious right versus the post-religious right I think is actually post-religious right I think is actually post-religious right I think is actually a quite significant thing. I just did a quite significant thing. I just did a quite significant thing. I just did this big Odyssey essay which I would say this big Odyssey essay which I would say this big Odyssey essay which I would say is very much about that question in a is very much about that question in a is very much about that question in a way. So, you know, so the theocracy the way. So, you know, so the theocracy the way. So, you know, so the theocracy the theocracy pan the theocracy panic was theocracy pan the theocracy panic was theocracy pan the theocracy panic was just that George W. Bush won re-election just that George W. Bush won re-election just that George W. Bush won re-election in 2004 with the support of lots and in 2004 with the support of lots and in 2004 with the support of lots and lots of white evangelicals. Liberals lots of white evangelicals. Liberals lots of white evangelicals. Liberals were not expecting Bush to win, a bunch were not expecting Bush to win, a bunch were not expecting Bush to win, a bunch of liberals became obsessed with the of liberals became obsessed with the of liberals became obsessed with the idea that evangelicalism was taking over idea that evangelicalism was taking over idea that evangelicalism was taking over America and was going to build a kind of America and was going to build a kind of America and was going to build a kind of Gileadesque evangelical theocracy. I Gileadesque evangelical theocracy. I Gileadesque evangelical theocracy. I thought that was ludicrous at the time thought that was ludicrous at the time thought that was ludicrous at the time and wrote a bunch of essays about it. and wrote a bunch of essays about it. and wrote a bunch of essays about it. Um, and Um, and Um, and then by the time you get to the mid2010s then by the time you get to the mid2010s then by the time you get to the mid2010s and Trump is winning while being and Trump is winning while being and Trump is winning while being conspicuously conspicuously conspicuously non-eangelical, conspicuously non-eangelical, conspicuously non-eangelical, conspicuously non-Christian, it seems like you're in a non-Christian, it seems like you're in a non-Christian, it seems like you're in a world where everything that liberals world where everything that liberals world where everything that liberals hated and feared about George W. Bush hated and feared about George W. Bush hated and feared about George W. Bush becomes something they're they're becomes something they're they're becomes something they're they're nostalgic for, right? and that they see nostalgic for, right? and that they see nostalgic for, right? and that they see sort of and that as you kind of sort of and that as you kind of sort of and that as you kind of dechristianize dechristianize dechristianize conservatism, you get more bigotry, conservatism, you get more bigotry, conservatism, you get more bigotry, xenophobia, these kind of things. You xenophobia, these kind of things. You xenophobia, these kind of things. You know, that was 10 years ago. There's a know, that was 10 years ago. There's a know, that was 10 years ago. There's a lot of different forms like a lot of different forms like a lot of different forms like a post-religious right could be and you post-religious right could be and you post-religious right could be and you see versions of this not a kind of you see versions of this not a kind of you see versions of this not a kind of you know terrifying fascist formation but know terrifying fascist formation but know terrifying fascist formation but just a kind of right-wing politics of um

just a kind of right-wing politics of um just a kind of right-wing politics of um you know sort of libertine indifference you know sort of libertine indifference you know sort of libertine indifference and sort of proud amoralism right and and sort of proud amoralism right and and sort of proud amoralism right and again this is part of part of Trump's again this is part of part of Trump's again this is part of part of Trump's coalition right is people who just hate coalition right is people who just hate coalition right is people who just hate moralistic arguments and want to do moralistic arguments and want to do moralistic arguments and want to do whatever they want to do and saw and whatever they want to do and saw and whatever they want to do and saw and ended up seeing Trump as an avatar for ended up seeing Trump as an avatar for ended up seeing Trump as an avatar for that which is I think quite different that which is I think quite different that which is I think quite different from the part of the post-religious from the part of the post-religious from the part of the post-religious right that is literally people trying to right that is literally people trying to right that is literally people trying to revive kind of a pagan non-Christian revive kind of a pagan non-Christian revive kind of a pagan non-Christian fascist politics but both of those fascist politics but both of those fascist politics but both of those things sort of exist as phenomena in the things sort of exist as phenomena in the things sort of exist as phenomena in the last 10 years tell me what you think last 10 years tell me what you think last 10 years tell me what you think leads to the phenomena of the more pagan leads to the phenomena of the more pagan leads to the phenomena of the more pagan formation so so the first time I heard formation so so the first time I heard formation so so the first time I heard this uh description of it was actually this uh description of it was actually this uh description of it was actually in an interview that Luis Perry, the in an interview that Luis Perry, the in an interview that Luis Perry, the sort of British conservative kind of sort of British conservative kind of sort of British conservative kind of critic of modern feminism did with your critic of modern feminism did with your critic of modern feminism did with your new boss Barry Weiss and she was making new boss Barry Weiss and she was making new boss Barry Weiss and she was making this distinction between Jordan Peterson this distinction between Jordan Peterson this distinction between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. So, you know, the and Andrew Tate. So, you know, the and Andrew Tate. So, you know, the really crucial difference between Jordan really crucial difference between Jordan really crucial difference between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. There are Peterson and Andrew Tate. There are Peterson and Andrew Tate. There are obviously lots of differences, but the obviously lots of differences, but the obviously lots of differences, but the the one that I think is most salient to the one that I think is most salient to the one that I think is most salient to this issue is um Jordan Peterson is this issue is um Jordan Peterson is this issue is um Jordan Peterson is basically um preaching a Christian basically um preaching a Christian basically um preaching a Christian message and Andrew Tate is not. I the message and Andrew Tate is not. I the message and Andrew Tate is not. I the more I think about it, the more I think more I think about it, the more I think more I think about it, the more I think that actually that's really the key that actually that's really the key that actually that's really the key dividing line if you're thinking about dividing line if you're thinking about dividing line if you're thinking about um American culture in particular um American culture in particular um American culture in particular >> and that a lot of the fights on the >> and that a lot of the fights on the >> and that a lot of the fights on the right she sort of made this argument are right she sort of made this argument are right she sort of made this argument are going to begin to come down to this you

going to begin to come down to this you going to begin to come down to this you know are you sort of pushing towards a know are you sort of pushing towards a know are you sort of pushing towards a you know what can be called here at you know what can be called here at you know what can be called here at least in certain forms of Christian least in certain forms of Christian least in certain forms of Christian ethic or is it about strength about ethic or is it about strength about ethic or is it about strength about dominance about hierarchy obviously dominance about hierarchy obviously dominance about hierarchy obviously Christianity is a big phenomena and you Christianity is a big phenomena and you Christianity is a big phenomena and you all as is Islam and Judaism and all all as is Islam and Judaism and all all as is Islam and Judaism and all these religions have many many different these religions have many many different these religions have many many different >> it's a complicated world >> it's a complicated world >> it's a complicated world >> political manifestations so I don't want >> political manifestations so I don't want >> political manifestations so I don't want to I don't want to overly probably to I don't want to overly probably to I don't want to overly probably pagans too pagans too pagans too >> but I do think there's something to that >> but I do think there's something to that >> but I do think there's something to that >> well the issue there though is that >> well the issue there though is that >> well the issue there though is that Jordan Peterson is not a Christian Jordan Peterson is not a Christian Jordan Peterson is not a Christian Tate is a that that is a right-wing Tate is a that that is a right-wing Tate is a that that is a right-wing politics that formally rejects politics that formally rejects politics that formally rejects Christianity Jordan Peterson is a Christianity Jordan Peterson is a Christianity Jordan Peterson is a post-Christian right-wing politics that post-Christian right-wing politics that post-Christian right-wing politics that is sort of trying I mean he's been ill is sort of trying I mean he's been ill is sort of trying I mean he's been ill for a while and I I don't want to like for a while and I I don't want to like for a while and I I don't want to like sort of sort of sort of >> characterize where he is right now, but >> characterize where he is right now, but >> characterize where he is right now, but generally he's engaged in this sort of generally he's engaged in this sort of generally he's engaged in this sort of constant like wrestling with the texts constant like wrestling with the texts constant like wrestling with the texts of the Old Testament and the Christian of the Old Testament and the Christian of the Old Testament and the Christian story and so on and saying, you know, story and so on and saying, you know, story and so on and saying, you know, these are incredibly important and we these are incredibly important and we these are incredibly important and we need to, you know, preserve them without need to, you know, preserve them without need to, you know, preserve them without ever actually committing to to Christian ever actually committing to to Christian ever actually committing to to Christian belief. And conservatism generally, I belief. And conservatism generally, I belief. And conservatism generally, I think, as Christianity has declined, has think, as Christianity has declined, has think, as Christianity has declined, has ended up in this weird place where it's ended up in this weird place where it's ended up in this weird place where it's trying to find some kind of category trying to find some kind of category trying to find some kind of category that includes Christianity, includes that includes Christianity, includes that includes Christianity, includes traditional religion, but isn't traditional religion, but isn't traditional religion, but isn't reducible to it. So, it's like, well, reducible to it. So, it's like, well, reducible to it. So, it's like, well, we're defending Western civilization, we're defending Western civilization, we're defending Western civilization, right? You you'll hear that a lot from right? You you'll hear that a lot from right? You you'll hear that a lot from people on the right and and often like people on the right and and often like people on the right and and often like that language is associated with people

that language is associated with people that language is associated with people on the right who are not themselves on the right who are not themselves on the right who are not themselves formally committed to Christianity. Um formally committed to Christianity. Um formally committed to Christianity. Um but so Tate Tate is an extreme but so Tate Tate is an extreme but so Tate Tate is an extreme but even Peterson himself is sort of but even Peterson himself is sort of but even Peterson himself is sort of navigating in the kind of post-Christian navigating in the kind of post-Christian navigating in the kind of post-Christian landscape in his own way. landscape in his own way. landscape in his own way. >> So tell me a bit of how you understand >> So tell me a bit of how you understand >> So tell me a bit of how you understand the story. How do we go from the the story. How do we go from the the story. How do we go from the front-facing Christianity of front-facing Christianity of front-facing Christianity of conservatism in the Bush era to this conservatism in the Bush era to this conservatism in the Bush era to this much more postChristian assemblage that much more postChristian assemblage that much more postChristian assemblage that includes Christians as you're as you're includes Christians as you're as you're includes Christians as you're as you're saying. But I would I would say it's saying. But I would I would say it's saying. But I would I would say it's fair to say Christian ethics and virtue fair to say Christian ethics and virtue fair to say Christian ethics and virtue are not demanded as a um are not demanded as a um are not demanded as a um >> right. So two two things happen. One is >> right. So two two things happen. One is >> right. So two two things happen. One is um at the mass level Christianity just um at the mass level Christianity just um at the mass level Christianity just declines. It declines sharply between declines. It declines sharply between declines. It declines sharply between the late 1990s and 2020. the late 1990s and 2020. the late 1990s and 2020. And that means that just inevitably And that means that just inevitably And that means that just inevitably the kinds of appeals and rhetoric and the kinds of appeals and rhetoric and the kinds of appeals and rhetoric and argument that are sort of normative on argument that are sort of normative on argument that are sort of normative on the right when lots of people are going the right when lots of people are going the right when lots of people are going to church uh are less normative when to church uh are less normative when to church uh are less normative when fewer people are going to church. And fewer people are going to church. And fewer people are going to church. And that's a very simple story, but I think that's a very simple story, but I think that's a very simple story, but I think it, you know, it does a lot of it, you know, it does a lot of it, you know, it does a lot of explanatory work. As a culture gets less explanatory work. As a culture gets less explanatory work. As a culture gets less formally Christian, it's not surprising formally Christian, it's not surprising formally Christian, it's not surprising that its leadership would get less that its leadership would get less that its leadership would get less formally Christian. Trump is again an formally Christian. Trump is again an formally Christian. Trump is again an extreme case. he takes he takes a trend extreme case. he takes he takes a trend extreme case. he takes he takes a trend to an extreme right where he is just to an extreme right where he is just to an extreme right where he is just sort of nakedly transactional in his sort of nakedly transactional in his sort of nakedly transactional in his relationship to Christianity and doesn't relationship to Christianity and doesn't relationship to Christianity and doesn't even sort of necessarily mouth the even sort of necessarily mouth the even sort of necessarily mouth the pieties but then at the intellectual

pieties but then at the intellectual pieties but then at the intellectual level right so let's say you are a level right so let's say you are a level right so let's say you are a writer or thinker or wouldbe elite on writer or thinker or wouldbe elite on writer or thinker or wouldbe elite on the right looking at this landscape the right looking at this landscape the right looking at this landscape looking at not just the decline of looking at not just the decline of looking at not just the decline of Christianity but this sort of sweeping Christianity but this sort of sweeping Christianity but this sort of sweeping victory for social liberalism that I victory for social liberalism that I victory for social liberalism that I just described just described just described Well, you're going to look at that and Well, you're going to look at that and Well, you're going to look at that and say, "Okay, we had an evangelical say, "Okay, we had an evangelical say, "Okay, we had an evangelical president in George W. Bush. We had sort president in George W. Bush. We had sort president in George W. Bush. We had sort of a Catholic evangelical alliance sort of a Catholic evangelical alliance sort of a Catholic evangelical alliance sort of defining Republican politics. And of defining Republican politics. And of defining Republican politics. And what did we get from it? We got what did we get from it? We got what did we get from it? We got secularization and the triumph of social secularization and the triumph of social secularization and the triumph of social liberalism." So, something went wrong liberalism." So, something went wrong liberalism." So, something went wrong here. And a lot of the sort of here. And a lot of the sort of here. And a lot of the sort of controversy and argument and debate controversy and argument and debate controversy and argument and debate among younger conservatives especially, among younger conservatives especially, among younger conservatives especially, but all over the place is this kind of but all over the place is this kind of but all over the place is this kind of wrestling with like, well, why did why wrestling with like, well, why did why wrestling with like, well, why did why did we fail, right? And there's just a did we fail, right? And there's just a did we fail, right? And there's just a lot of different impulses at work there. lot of different impulses at work there. lot of different impulses at work there. You have, you know, you have people who You have, you know, you have people who You have, you know, you have people who sort of want to leave Christianity sort of want to leave Christianity sort of want to leave Christianity behind entirely and say the problem, you behind entirely and say the problem, you behind entirely and say the problem, you know, the problem is just like, you know, the problem is just like, you know, the problem is just like, you know, this this religion is sort of weak know, this this religion is sort of weak know, this this religion is sort of weak and and its leaders are hapless and and and its leaders are hapless and and and its leaders are hapless and defeat and soft and you need, you know, defeat and soft and you need, you know, defeat and soft and you need, you know, a harsh a harsh masculine force and so a harsh a harsh masculine force and so a harsh a harsh masculine force and so on. That that's that's a pretty narrow on. That that's that's a pretty narrow on. That that's that's a pretty narrow group. I think what what's more common group. I think what what's more common group. I think what what's more common is a desire among people who are is a desire among people who are is a desire among people who are connected to Christianity, who are connected to Christianity, who are connected to Christianity, who are Christian and so on to like say, well,

Christian and so on to like say, well, Christian and so on to like say, well, where can we find greater strength? where can we find greater strength? where can we find greater strength? Where can we find, you know, greater Where can we find, you know, greater Where can we find, you know, greater toughness? How can we be more effective toughness? How can we be more effective toughness? How can we be more effective political actors? How can we defeat our political actors? How can we defeat our political actors? How can we defeat our enemies instead of having them vanquish enemies instead of having them vanquish enemies instead of having them vanquish us? You could call it a reaching for us? You could call it a reaching for us? You could call it a reaching for pagan energy that doesn't go all the way pagan energy that doesn't go all the way pagan energy that doesn't go all the way to actually becoming pagan, right? And to actually becoming pagan, right? And to actually becoming pagan, right? And look, the truth is that, you know, if look, the truth is that, you know, if look, the truth is that, you know, if you go back and look, you go back and look, you go back and look, >> I'm not Steven Miller's not a Wiccan. >> I'm not Steven Miller's not a Wiccan. >> I'm not Steven Miller's not a Wiccan. >> Steven Miller is not a Wiccan, right? >> Steven Miller is not a Wiccan, right? >> Steven Miller is not a Wiccan, right? But there, yeah, there's a I mean, there But there, yeah, there's a I mean, there But there, yeah, there's a I mean, there it's like the desire is for strength and it's like the desire is for strength and it's like the desire is for strength and toughness and a politics of enmity. toughness and a politics of enmity. toughness and a politics of enmity. There's various versions of this that um There's various versions of this that um There's various versions of this that um that show up and they're connected also that show up and they're connected also that show up and they're connected also to the reality that you know if you look to the reality that you know if you look to the reality that you know if you look obviously historically at the obviously historically at the obviously historically at the expressions of political Christianity in expressions of political Christianity in expressions of political Christianity in the western world they are you know I the western world they are you know I the western world they are you know I mean very comfortable with fighting wars mean very comfortable with fighting wars mean very comfortable with fighting wars and um you know conquering enemies and and um you know conquering enemies and and um you know conquering enemies and all of these kind of things. people, all of these kind of things. people, all of these kind of things. people, Christians, conservative Christians Christians, conservative Christians Christians, conservative Christians today who are like, you know, what today who are like, you know, what today who are like, you know, what happened to the crusading spirit or happened to the crusading spirit or happened to the crusading spirit or something like that are are not wrong something like that are are not wrong something like that are are not wrong that like that that has been part of that like that that has been part of that like that that has been part of Christian culture in the west for a long Christian culture in the west for a long Christian culture in the west for a long time. But you know, you see this in the time. But you know, you see this in the time. But you know, you see this in the debate about like the Odyssey for debate about like the Odyssey for debate about like the Odyssey for instance, right? Where Christopher Nolan takes the Odyssey Christopher Nolan takes the Odyssey and some people have said he

and some people have said he and some people have said he Christianizes it, right? This is sort of Christianizes it, right? This is sort of Christianizes it, right? This is sort of debatable, but he he certainly makes the debatable, but he he certainly makes the debatable, but he he certainly makes the moral vision of the story moral vision of the story moral vision of the story more compatible with Christianity where more compatible with Christianity where more compatible with Christianity where it's like, okay, you know, Odysius has it's like, okay, you know, Odysius has it's like, okay, you know, Odysius has committed sins and feels guilt and he committed sins and feels guilt and he committed sins and feels guilt and he doesn't glory in war. Um, he doesn't doesn't glory in war. Um, he doesn't doesn't glory in war. Um, he doesn't sleep with Calypso uh and Cersei and so sleep with Calypso uh and Cersei and so sleep with Calypso uh and Cersei and so on. But then there's clearly a group not on. But then there's clearly a group not on. But then there's clearly a group not just of would be neopagans but sort of just of would be neopagans but sort of just of would be neopagans but sort of conservative Christians on the internet conservative Christians on the internet conservative Christians on the internet who don't like that and are like where's who don't like that and are like where's who don't like that and are like where's the you know where's the war right the you know where's the war right the you know where's the war right where's the you know we we this is sort where's the you know we we this is sort where's the you know we we this is sort of this is like losing losing the the of this is like losing losing the the of this is like losing losing the the the core the core of the story and the core the core of the story and the core the core of the story and that's an that's I think that that that's an that's I think that that that's an that's I think that that partially reflects this desire to partially reflects this desire to partially reflects this desire to find something that doesn't seem present find something that doesn't seem present find something that doesn't seem present in like late 20th century in like late 20th century in like late 20th century sort of public Christianity, the sort of public Christianity, the sort of public Christianity, the compassionate conservatism of George W.

compassionate conservatism of George W. compassionate conservatism of George W. Bush, find some kind of fighting spirit Bush, find some kind of fighting spirit Bush, find some kind of fighting spirit in the theory that that's what you need in the theory that that's what you need in the theory that that's what you need to overcome to overcome to overcome liberalism. It liberalism. It liberalism. It >> it's funny. It's an odd take on George >> it's funny. It's an odd take on George >> it's funny. It's an odd take on George W. Bush in a way that what he lacked was W. Bush in a way that what he lacked was W. Bush in a way that what he lacked was a fighting spirit. Bush, who won two a fighting spirit. Bush, who won two a fighting spirit. Bush, who won two elections in a row against the elections in a row against the elections in a row against the Democrats, Democrats, Democrats, >> uh but also launched a large number of >> uh but also launched a large number of >> uh but also launched a large number of wars. wars. wars. >> Yes, there were some wars. Well, yes. >> Yes, there were some wars. Well, yes. >> Yes, there were some wars. Well, yes. And there is no part there's also some And there is no part there's also some And there is no part there's also some of this is like a creative mis or a of this is like a creative mis or a of this is like a creative mis or a convenient misremembering by the right convenient misremembering by the right convenient misremembering by the right where you have like young nationalists where you have like young nationalists where you have like young nationalists on the right young wouldbe nationalists on the right young wouldbe nationalists on the right young wouldbe nationalists who will say you know the one thing we who will say you know the one thing we who will say you know the one thing we can't do is go back to you know the can't do is go back to you know the can't do is go back to you know the feckless liberal internationalism of feckless liberal internationalism of feckless liberal internationalism of George W Bush. Um, but if you look at George W Bush. Um, but if you look at George W Bush. Um, but if you look at the things written in the run-up to the the things written in the run-up to the the things written in the run-up to the Iraq war, and this is maybe where my war Iraq war, and this is maybe where my war Iraq war, and this is maybe where my war blogger reference at the start is blogger reference at the start is blogger reference at the start is actually relevant, they had a lot in actually relevant, they had a lot in actually relevant, they had a lot in common with populist nationalist common with populist nationalist common with populist nationalist arguments today. There's this sort of arguments today. There's this sort of arguments today. There's this sort of recurring. They were like, the West has recurring. They were like, the West has recurring. They were like, the West has gotten soft, right? Radical Islam has gotten soft, right? Radical Islam has gotten soft, right? Radical Islam has taken advantage of our liberal weakness.

taken advantage of our liberal weakness. taken advantage of our liberal weakness. we need to show strength and make a we need to show strength and make a we need to show strength and make a friend enemy distinction in the battle friend enemy distinction in the battle friend enemy distinction in the battle for the Middle East, right? Um the the for the Middle East, right? Um the the for the Middle East, right? Um the the whole like national greatness whole like national greatness whole like national greatness conservatism and this runs conservatism and this runs conservatism and this runs history is filled with these like fun history is filled with these like fun history is filled with these like fun ironies, right? So there were a bunch of ironies, right? So there were a bunch of ironies, right? So there were a bunch of people who were associated with what got people who were associated with what got people who were associated with what got called national greatness conservatism called national greatness conservatism called national greatness conservatism which was basically a kind of you know which was basically a kind of you know which was basically a kind of you know pretty hawkish pretty hawkish pretty hawkish um form of Republican politics um who um form of Republican politics um who um form of Republican politics um who then like Bill Crystal right um who then then like Bill Crystal right um who then then like Bill Crystal right um who then end up as like the great critics of end up as like the great critics of end up as like the great critics of Trumpism. our former colleague our Trumpism. our former colleague our Trumpism. our former colleague our former colleague our right our former former colleague our right our former former colleague our right our former colleague David Brooks he's a less he's colleague David Brooks he's a less he's colleague David Brooks he's a less he's a less extreme example it's just really a less extreme example it's just really a less extreme example it's just really striking if you go back striking if you go back striking if you go back >> like nobody hates Bill Crystal more than >> like nobody hates Bill Crystal more than >> like nobody hates Bill Crystal more than Trumpists and Bill Crystal hates Trumpists and Bill Crystal hates Trumpists and Bill Crystal hates Trumpists but if you go back and read Trumpists but if you go back and read Trumpists but if you go back and read like the way Crystal wrote about like the way Crystal wrote about like the way Crystal wrote about politics and war and all these things in politics and war and all these things in politics and war and all these things in the late 90s and early 2000s he has a the late 90s and early 2000s he has a the late 90s and early 2000s he has a lot in common with the way sort of the lot in common with the way sort of the lot in common with the way sort of the young nationalists spoiling for a fight young nationalists spoiling for a fight young nationalists spoiling for a fight write about politics today it's just the write about politics today it's just the write about politics today it's just the focus the focus is is different.

focus the focus is is different. focus the focus is is different. >> So why do you think that ended up being >> So why do you think that ended up being >> So why do you think that ended up being such a major split? Because I agree that such a major split? Because I agree that such a major split? Because I agree that that is one of the places where you tend that is one of the places where you tend that is one of the places where you tend to see a lot of split between Trumpist to see a lot of split between Trumpist to see a lot of split between Trumpist and never Trumpers, people associated and never Trumpers, people associated and never Trumpers, people associated with national greatness conservatism. with national greatness conservatism. with national greatness conservatism. >> That was an aggressive muscular >> That was an aggressive muscular >> That was an aggressive muscular conservatism. Y conservatism. Y conservatism. Y >> that was a we need to defend Western >> that was a we need to defend Western >> that was a we need to defend Western civilization version of conservatism. civilization version of conservatism. civilization version of conservatism. And you know, for all the talk about not And you know, for all the talk about not And you know, for all the talk about not launching new wars, it does not turn out launching new wars, it does not turn out launching new wars, it does not turn out to be the case that that is so central to be the case that that is so central to be the case that that is so central to Donald Trump's conception apparently to Donald Trump's conception apparently to Donald Trump's conception apparently not of how MAGA works. Yep. not of how MAGA works. Yep. not of how MAGA works. Yep. >> So why do you think that became such a >> So why do you think that became such a >> So why do you think that became such a cut in the Republican coalition? cut in the Republican coalition? cut in the Republican coalition? >> I think it was well it was partially a >> I think it was well it was partially a >> I think it was well it was partially a cut because even though Trump has ended cut because even though Trump has ended cut because even though Trump has ended up starting a new war in the Middle up starting a new war in the Middle up starting a new war in the Middle East, he really did pretty strongly East, he really did pretty strongly East, he really did pretty strongly repudiate elements of neoonservative and repudiate elements of neoonservative and repudiate elements of neoonservative and hawkish foreign policy. And to the hawkish foreign policy. And to the hawkish foreign policy. And to the extent that like if you were committed extent that like if you were committed extent that like if you were committed to the idea that the Iraq war had been a to the idea that the Iraq war had been a to the idea that the Iraq war had been a good idea then Trump in 2016 was not good idea then Trump in 2016 was not good idea then Trump in 2016 was not your guy. Right? So there was that as a your guy. Right? So there was that as a your guy. Right? So there was that as a kind of specific breaking point. Then kind of specific breaking point. Then kind of specific breaking point. Then there was al there also was you know to there was al there also was you know to there was al there also was you know to make the case for the never Trump side a make the case for the never Trump side a make the case for the never Trump side a kind of clear characterological kind of clear characterological kind of clear characterological argument where you could say you know in argument where you could say you know in argument where you could say you know in in the early 2000s that a n a politics in the early 2000s that a n a politics in the early 2000s that a n a politics of national greatness only made sense if of national greatness only made sense if of national greatness only made sense if it was founded on it was founded on it was founded on character and virtue in your leaders and character and virtue in your leaders and character and virtue in your leaders and I don't think George Bush was like a I don't think George Bush was like a I don't think George Bush was like a paragon of every single virtue but it's

paragon of every single virtue but it's paragon of every single virtue but it's fair to say that he was a more fair to say that he was a more fair to say that he was a more personally virtuous in various ways than personally virtuous in various ways than personally virtuous in various ways than Trump. Right? So there were people who Trump. Right? So there were people who Trump. Right? So there were people who had committed to that idea for good had committed to that idea for good had committed to that idea for good reasons for whom it was just like okay I reasons for whom it was just like okay I reasons for whom it was just like okay I don't care how muscular Trump is or how don't care how muscular Trump is or how don't care how muscular Trump is or how international greatness he is. He's just international greatness he is. He's just international greatness he is. He's just a bad guy and I'm not I'm not going to a bad guy and I'm not I'm not going to a bad guy and I'm not I'm not going to support him. And then for younger people support him. And then for younger people support him. And then for younger people like especially after 2016 like once you like especially after 2016 like once you like especially after 2016 like once you know once Trump wins then he just sort know once Trump wins then he just sort know once Trump wins then he just sort of resets the landscape right and you of resets the landscape right and you of resets the landscape right and you sort of sort of sort of it's it's just like you sort of I I feel it's it's just like you sort of I I feel it's it's just like you sort of I I feel like with younger people on both the like with younger people on both the like with younger people on both the left and the right the world where we left and the right the world where we left and the right the world where we had arguments about the character of had arguments about the character of had arguments about the character of American politicians the world where you American politicians the world where you American politicians the world where you know Bill Clinton's adultery was know Bill Clinton's adultery was know Bill Clinton's adultery was something to be litigated all all of something to be litigated all all of something to be litigated all all of these is just kind of a lost world these is just kind of a lost world these is just kind of a lost world and so it's sort of and so it's sort of and so it's sort of >> I think it might be rediscovered soon. >> I think it might be rediscovered soon. >> I think it might be rediscovered soon. >> It might be. >> It might be. >> It might be. >> I think in the turning of the wheel on >> I think in the turning of the wheel on >> I think in the turning of the wheel on >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. No, >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. No, >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. No, the next cohort I mean yeah we're old the next cohort I mean yeah we're old the next cohort I mean yeah we're old now so you know you can you can see that now so you know you can you can see that now so you know you can you can see that each cohort will have a different each cohort will have a different each cohort will have a different perspective and there may be a renewed perspective and there may be a renewed perspective and there may be a renewed interest in character. There's another interest in character. There's another interest in character. There's another fascinating at least to me shift that fascinating at least to me shift that fascinating at least to me shift that has taken place which is you know we've has taken place which is you know we've has taken place which is you know we've described a couple times here the described a couple times here the described a couple times here the centrality of evangelical Christianity centrality of evangelical Christianity centrality of evangelical Christianity to politics in say 2005 to politics in say 2005 to politics in say 2005 and now Catholics seem much more central and now Catholics seem much more central and now Catholics seem much more central to politics right Catholic thinkers you to politics right Catholic thinkers you to politics right Catholic thinkers you have a lot of Catholic converts at the have a lot of Catholic converts at the have a lot of Catholic converts at the top of Republican party politics

top of Republican party politics top of Republican party politics including JD Vance who is just on your including JD Vance who is just on your including JD Vance who is just on your show the vice president who just show the vice president who just show the vice president who just released a book about his Catholic released a book about his Catholic released a book about his Catholic conversion conversion conversion >> albeit one with a Protestant church on >> albeit one with a Protestant church on >> albeit one with a Protestant church on cover. cover. cover. >> It is an odd design choice. I agree. >> It is an odd design choice. I agree. >> It is an odd design choice. I agree. >> Sort of. I mean, it it actually is a >> Sort of. I mean, it it actually is a >> Sort of. I mean, it it actually is a design choice that makes a lot of sense, design choice that makes a lot of sense, design choice that makes a lot of sense, but we can we can get into that. Go on. but we can we can get into that. Go on. but we can we can get into that. Go on. >> What have you made of that? What what >> What have you made of that? What what >> What have you made of that? What what what does that move from like the form what does that move from like the form what does that move from like the form of Christianity that seems to be driving of Christianity that seems to be driving of Christianity that seems to be driving right-wing politics? Was evangelical right-wing politics? Was evangelical right-wing politics? Was evangelical Christianity to Catholic thinking? What Christianity to Catholic thinking? What Christianity to Catholic thinking? What is that? is that? is that? >> I don't know. So, one, I don't know how >> I don't know. So, one, I don't know how >> I don't know. So, one, I don't know how much Catholic thinking can be said to be much Catholic thinking can be said to be much Catholic thinking can be said to be driving Republican politics. I I would driving Republican politics. I I would driving Republican politics. I I would not look at the second Trump not look at the second Trump not look at the second Trump intellectual trends. intellectual trends. intellectual trends. >> Yeah, I think it's I think it's I think >> Yeah, I think it's I think it's I think >> Yeah, I think it's I think it's I think it's very important in sort of it's very important in sort of it's very important in sort of right-wing intellectual culture. In the right-wing intellectual culture. In the right-wing intellectual culture. In the last 5 years generally after a long last 5 years generally after a long last 5 years generally after a long period of secularization, there is a period of secularization, there is a period of secularization, there is a renewed interest in arguments about renewed interest in arguments about renewed interest in arguments about religion, religious ideas, um that religion, religious ideas, um that religion, religious ideas, um that extends beyond conservatism, maybe even extends beyond conservatism, maybe even extends beyond conservatism, maybe even extends to you, right, Ezra? We've we've extends to you, right, Ezra? We've we've extends to you, right, Ezra? We've we've talked about this on this show before.

talked about this on this show before. talked about this on this show before. Um, and I think in my own my own work Um, and I think in my own my own work Um, and I think in my own my own work has been in this period kind of well has been in this period kind of well has been in this period kind of well suited to that moment. I felt sort of suited to that moment. I felt sort of suited to that moment. I felt sort of more in tune with the times than I more in tune with the times than I more in tune with the times than I usually do in in that sense. But the way usually do in in that sense. But the way usually do in in that sense. But the way that's manifested in kind of right-wing that's manifested in kind of right-wing that's manifested in kind of right-wing intellectual culture is that intellectual culture is that intellectual culture is that Catholicism, Catholicism, Catholicism, which has, I think it's fair to say, a which has, I think it's fair to say, a which has, I think it's fair to say, a stronger and deeper intellectual stronger and deeper intellectual stronger and deeper intellectual tradition than evangelical Christianity tradition than evangelical Christianity tradition than evangelical Christianity in the US, has just become like a kind in the US, has just become like a kind in the US, has just become like a kind of natural attractor for a lot of people of natural attractor for a lot of people of natural attractor for a lot of people who are like looking for looking for a who are like looking for looking for a who are like looking for looking for a harbor, looking for a place to land, harbor, looking for a place to land, harbor, looking for a place to land, looking to convert or revert or anything looking to convert or revert or anything looking to convert or revert or anything else. But then the other thing is that else. But then the other thing is that else. But then the other thing is that you know Catholicism is still struggling you know Catholicism is still struggling you know Catholicism is still struggling as a mass institutional religion right as a mass institutional religion right as a mass institutional religion right and evangelicalism and evangelicalism and evangelicalism is still thriving relative to is still thriving relative to is still thriving relative to Catholicism. I mean, one argument you Catholicism. I mean, one argument you Catholicism. I mean, one argument you could make is that under sort of digital could make is that under sort of digital could make is that under sort of digital conditions, under sort of internet conditions, under sort of internet conditions, under sort of internet conditions, which are hard on they're conditions, which are hard on they're conditions, which are hard on they're hard on things that don't have a clear hard on things that don't have a clear hard on things that don't have a clear definition that are sort of just based definition that are sort of just based definition that are sort of just based on kind of loose ancestral loyalties.

on kind of loose ancestral loyalties. on kind of loose ancestral loyalties. So, they've been really hard on like So, they've been really hard on like So, they've been really hard on like denominational Protestantism, on people denominational Protestantism, on people denominational Protestantism, on people who are like, well, I'm a Methodist cuz who are like, well, I'm a Methodist cuz who are like, well, I'm a Methodist cuz my parents were a Methodist, or I'm a my parents were a Methodist, or I'm a my parents were a Methodist, or I'm a Presbyterian cuz I like the pastor, and Presbyterian cuz I like the pastor, and Presbyterian cuz I like the pastor, and so on. and they've been good for in so on. and they've been good for in so on. and they've been good for in different ways sort of stronger brands different ways sort of stronger brands different ways sort of stronger brands and in a way Christianity sort of and in a way Christianity sort of and in a way Christianity sort of polarizes into the strong brand of like polarizes into the strong brand of like polarizes into the strong brand of like lurggical religion of which Catholicism lurggical religion of which Catholicism lurggical religion of which Catholicism is the strongest expression and then is the strongest expression and then is the strongest expression and then kind of the strong brand of mass market kind of the strong brand of mass market kind of the strong brand of mass market seeker sensitive you know come for our seeker sensitive you know come for our seeker sensitive you know come for our amazing our amazing praise music concert amazing our amazing praise music concert amazing our amazing praise music concert and th those are the two strongest forms and th those are the two strongest forms and th those are the two strongest forms but the Catholic form is stronger at the but the Catholic form is stronger at the but the Catholic form is stronger at the elite level and the evangelical form elite level and the evangelical form elite level and the evangelical form seems stronger at the mass level. That seems stronger at the mass level. That seems stronger at the mass level. That was a very long comment, but it's it's was a very long comment, but it's it's was a very long comment, but it's it's something obviously that I think about a something obviously that I think about a something obviously that I think about a lot, but it's a very Yeah, I I don't lot, but it's a very Yeah, I I don't lot, but it's a very Yeah, I I don't know where it goes from from there. know where it goes from from there. know where it goes from from there. Like, do we just have a world where like Like, do we just have a world where like Like, do we just have a world where like it's sort of natural if you're in the it's sort of natural if you're in the it's sort of natural if you're in the elite to be Catholic the way it would elite to be Catholic the way it would elite to be Catholic the way it would have once been natural to be an have once been natural to be an have once been natural to be an Episcopalian?

Episcopalian? Episcopalian? But that's somehow separate from like But that's somehow separate from like But that's somehow separate from like what's happening in mass trends in what's happening in mass trends in what's happening in mass trends in religion? Does an elite turn to religion? Does an elite turn to religion? Does an elite turn to Catholicism eventually sort of trickle Catholicism eventually sort of trickle Catholicism eventually sort of trickle down and sort of revitalize down and sort of revitalize down and sort of revitalize the wider Catholic institutions? I have the wider Catholic institutions? I have the wider Catholic institutions? I have no idea. no idea. no idea. >> Do you think the relationship between >> Do you think the relationship between >> Do you think the relationship between the left and religion has changed? the left and religion has changed? the left and religion has changed? >> Yes. Uh, I think that again I'm not sure >> Yes. Uh, I think that again I'm not sure >> Yes. Uh, I think that again I'm not sure where this goes, but I feel like the where this goes, but I feel like the where this goes, but I feel like the kind of post-Christian left is having kind of post-Christian left is having kind of post-Christian left is having its own kind of existential its own kind of existential its own kind of existential crisis of like pessimism. But I feel crisis of like pessimism. But I feel crisis of like pessimism. But I feel like there was a period when it when on like there was a period when it when on like there was a period when it when on the left it was like we are leaving the left it was like we are leaving the left it was like we are leaving traditional patriarchal traditional patriarchal traditional patriarchal ciseteronormative ciseteronormative ciseteronormative Christianity behind and we're going to Christianity behind and we're going to Christianity behind and we're going to be great. we're gonna, you know, we're be great. we're gonna, you know, we're be great. we're gonna, you know, we're gonna enter the broad sunlit uplands of gonna enter the broad sunlit uplands of gonna enter the broad sunlit uplands of science. We're going to trust the science. We're going to trust the science. We're going to trust the science in this house and so on. And science in this house and so on. And science in this house and so on. And then somewhere between COVID and Trump then somewhere between COVID and Trump then somewhere between COVID and Trump returning and, you know, the rise of AI returning and, you know, the rise of AI returning and, you know, the rise of AI and various other unsettling things, um, and various other unsettling things, um, and various other unsettling things, um, I think the left started to feel like I think the left started to feel like I think the left started to feel like they were missing something. Um, you they were missing something. Um, you they were missing something. Um, you know, if you watch, did you watch the la know, if you watch, did you watch the la know, if you watch, did you watch the la the last Knives Out movie?

the last Knives Out movie? the last Knives Out movie? >> I did. >> I did. >> I did. >> Right. So in the in the latest kn So the >> Right. So in the in the latest kn So the >> Right. So in the in the latest kn So the prior Knives Out movie was a movie about prior Knives Out movie was a movie about prior Knives Out movie was a movie about how Elon Musk and billionaires are bad how Elon Musk and billionaires are bad how Elon Musk and billionaires are bad and evil and this the latest Knives Out and evil and this the latest Knives Out and evil and this the latest Knives Out movie um was a movie about how uh there movie um was a movie about how uh there movie um was a movie about how uh there are really awful forms of religion and are really awful forms of religion and are really awful forms of religion and there's also really good forms of there's also really good forms of there's also really good forms of religion and we should want the really religion and we should want the really religion and we should want the really good forms to survive and you know it's good forms to survive and you know it's good forms to survive and you know it's just just one movie but I thought it was just just one movie but I thought it was just just one movie but I thought it was an interesting sort of an interesting sort of an interesting sort of >> sense of like a a kind of a kind of like >> sense of like a a kind of a kind of like >> sense of like a a kind of a kind of like groping around in liberal culture for groping around in liberal culture for groping around in liberal culture for sort of some kind of religious or sort of some kind of religious or sort of some kind of religious or spiritual point of connection that again spiritual point of connection that again spiritual point of connection that again I think also shows up in just kind of I think also shows up in just kind of I think also shows up in just kind of post-Christian spirituality interest in post-Christian spirituality interest in post-Christian spirituality interest in sort of new age pagan stuff all that sort of new age pagan stuff all that sort of new age pagan stuff all that stuff too there's just a lot of there's stuff too there's just a lot of there's stuff too there's just a lot of there's a lot of groping a lot of groping a lot of groping >> well I think you can see a couple things >> well I think you can see a couple things >> well I think you can see a couple things happening that are least interesting so happening that are least interesting so happening that are least interesting so I agree knives out is is one of them we I agree knives out is is one of them we I agree knives out is is one of them we were talking about the Odyssey But you were talking about the Odyssey But you were talking about the Odyssey But you have James Terico who became a kind of have James Terico who became a kind of have James Terico who became a kind of phenom candidate, sort of one of the phenom candidate, sort of one of the phenom candidate, sort of one of the only like mainstream liberal candidates only like mainstream liberal candidates only like mainstream liberal candidates who's been like a big attentional phenom who's been like a big attentional phenom who's been like a big attentional phenom of the moment and does it by wrapping a of the moment and does it by wrapping a of the moment and does it by wrapping a pretty straightforward progressive pretty straightforward progressive pretty straightforward progressive politics politics politics >> in a very very moralistically Christian >> in a very very moralistically Christian >> in a very very moralistically Christian y framework.

y framework. y framework. >> What would Jesus do about a justice >> What would Jesus do about a justice >> What would Jesus do about a justice system that incarcerates more people system that incarcerates more people system that incarcerates more people than any other country on the face of than any other country on the face of than any other country on the face of the earth? the earth? the earth? And what would Jesus do about an And what would Jesus do about an And what would Jesus do about an economic system that prioritizes profits economic system that prioritizes profits economic system that prioritizes profits over the health of our planet? over the health of our planet? over the health of our planet? Would he stay in his room and pray or Would he stay in his room and pray or Would he stay in his room and pray or would he walk into the seat of power and would he walk into the seat of power and would he walk into the seat of power and flip over the tables of injustice? flip over the tables of injustice? flip over the tables of injustice? >> And I think people have found that >> And I think people have found that >> And I think people have found that exciting. It has given them a way to exciting. It has given them a way to exciting. It has given them a way to talk about the moment that I think feels talk about the moment that I think feels talk about the moment that I think feels deeper and deeper and deeper and uh uh uh it has tapped into something very real. it has tapped into something very real. it has tapped into something very real. I think if you're watching some of the I think if you're watching some of the I think if you're watching some of the other people coming up, this would other people coming up, this would other people coming up, this would include not just Ralph Waro, but but include not just Ralph Waro, but but include not just Ralph Waro, but but John Of in Georgia, they're much more John Of in Georgia, they're much more John Of in Georgia, they're much more comfortable in that grammar as well. comfortable in that grammar as well. comfortable in that grammar as well. They They They got together, the speaker of the house, got together, the speaker of the house, got together, the speaker of the house, held hands with other legislators, held hands with other legislators, held hands with other legislators, prayed a prayer, and then they went and prayed a prayer, and then they went and prayed a prayer, and then they went and cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. 15 million people, right, 15 million people, right, 15 million people, right, >> off of their healthcare. They they >> off of their healthcare. They they >> off of their healthcare. They they kicked veterans and seniors and children kicked veterans and seniors and children kicked veterans and seniors and children off of SNAP. And I I don't understand off of SNAP. And I I don't understand off of SNAP. And I I don't understand how you read the book that I read.

how you read the book that I read. how you read the book that I read. >> I'm a Matthew 25 Christian. A government >> I'm a Matthew 25 Christian. A government >> I'm a Matthew 25 Christian. A government transformed into a tool of one man's transformed into a tool of one man's transformed into a tool of one man's vengeance vengeance vengeance >> and enrichment. >> and enrichment. >> and enrichment. >> A spiritually broken president. >> Who digs the moral pit deeper and >> Who digs the moral pit deeper and deeper. deeper. deeper. But pastor Proverbs says, "Whoever digs But pastor Proverbs says, "Whoever digs But pastor Proverbs says, "Whoever digs a pit, >> whoever digs a pit >> whoever digs a pit will fall into it." will fall into it." will fall into it." >> And scripture is full of kings brought >> And scripture is full of kings brought >> And scripture is full of kings brought low by their own arrogance. low by their own arrogance. low by their own arrogance. >> Uh so in my view, something is >> Uh so in my view, something is >> Uh so in my view, something is happening. It's not necessarily the left happening. It's not necessarily the left happening. It's not necessarily the left is becoming believers in a in a in a new is becoming believers in a in a in a new is becoming believers in a in a in a new way, but there is a desire to sort of way, but there is a desire to sort of way, but there is a desire to sort of reconnect, I think, to traditions. Well, reconnect, I think, to traditions. Well, reconnect, I think, to traditions. Well, I mean, there was a way in which from I mean, there was a way in which from I mean, there was a way in which from from my perspective as a skeptical from my perspective as a skeptical from my perspective as a skeptical outsider, the whole great awakening was outsider, the whole great awakening was outsider, the whole great awakening was this fascinating attempt to do religious this fascinating attempt to do religious this fascinating attempt to do religious energy without metaphysical commitment.

energy without metaphysical commitment. energy without metaphysical commitment. Like it was it really was the case that Like it was it really was the case that Like it was it really was the case that there was kind of the energy that you there was kind of the energy that you there was kind of the energy that you associate with a moralistic revival at associate with a moralistic revival at associate with a moralistic revival at work in anti-racism and you know work in anti-racism and you know work in anti-racism and you know everything associated with that. Like everything associated with that. Like everything associated with that. Like you have iconoclasm, you have you know you have iconoclasm, you have you know you have iconoclasm, you have you know people enforcing new moral norms. Like people enforcing new moral norms. Like people enforcing new moral norms. Like these are things that we associate with these are things that we associate with these are things that we associate with periods of spiritual ferment. Um but periods of spiritual ferment. Um but periods of spiritual ferment. Um but quite self-consciously like the quite self-consciously like the quite self-consciously like the anti-racist cause was detached from the anti-racist cause was detached from the anti-racist cause was detached from the black church in various ways, right? And black church in various ways, right? And black church in various ways, right? And you had like our again my former you had like our again my former you had like our again my former Atlantic colleague Tanahasi Coats, you Atlantic colleague Tanahasi Coats, you Atlantic colleague Tanahasi Coats, you know, as a kind of prophet who very know, as a kind of prophet who very know, as a kind of prophet who very explicitly rejected cosmic hope, right? explicitly rejected cosmic hope, right? explicitly rejected cosmic hope, right? If anything sort of carried a kind of If anything sort of carried a kind of If anything sort of carried a kind of cosmic despair around with him. I think cosmic despair around with him. I think cosmic despair around with him. I think that combination that combination that combination doesn't work well, right? you end up doesn't work well, right? you end up doesn't work well, right? you end up with a kind of a kind of politics of with a kind of a kind of politics of with a kind of a kind of politics of guilt without the possibility of guilt without the possibility of guilt without the possibility of redemption is a pretty dark perspective redemption is a pretty dark perspective redemption is a pretty dark perspective on the world and I think sort of on the world and I think sort of on the world and I think sort of wokeness for all its revolutionary zeal wokeness for all its revolutionary zeal wokeness for all its revolutionary zeal ends up itself just in some dark places ends up itself just in some dark places ends up itself just in some dark places again independent of what's happening again independent of what's happening again independent of what's happening with Trump or on the right or anything with Trump or on the right or anything with Trump or on the right or anything else. So some of it might be just a else. So some of it might be just a else. So some of it might be just a reaction to that too, right? a sense reaction to that too, right? a sense reaction to that too, right? a sense that like, okay, we can't moralize at that like, okay, we can't moralize at that like, okay, we can't moralize at people if we're also telling them that people if we're also telling them that people if we're also telling them that the universe is sort of empty and the universe is sort of empty and the universe is sort of empty and meaningless except for like the meaning meaningless except for like the meaning meaningless except for like the meaning we impose on it through ideological we impose on it through ideological we impose on it through ideological categories or something like you need if categories or something like you need if categories or something like you need if you're going to have progressive you're going to have progressive you're going to have progressive moralism, you need to be able to claim moralism, you need to be able to claim moralism, you need to be able to claim to that it corresponds to something like

to that it corresponds to something like to that it corresponds to something like out there in the cosmos that's real, out there in the cosmos that's real, out there in the cosmos that's real, right? right? right? >> I don't totally agree with that. Um >> I don't totally agree with that. Um >> I don't totally agree with that. Um maybe one one way to to to ground that maybe one one way to to to ground that maybe one one way to to to ground that disagreement is Pope Leo's AI and disagreement is Pope Leo's AI and disagreement is Pope Leo's AI and cyclical one of the things that struck cyclical one of the things that struck cyclical one of the things that struck me reading it was without agreeing with me reading it was without agreeing with me reading it was without agreeing with his metaphysics. Right? I am not a his metaphysics. Right? I am not a his metaphysics. Right? I am not a Catholic. My vision of the world and its Catholic. My vision of the world and its Catholic. My vision of the world and its cosmology is not Catholic. cosmology is not Catholic. cosmology is not Catholic. I found it to be a really I found it to be a really I found it to be a really beautiful and moving articulation beautiful and moving articulation beautiful and moving articulation of what I would otherwise describe as of what I would otherwise describe as of what I would otherwise describe as liberal values. um all the way down to liberal values. um all the way down to liberal values. um all the way down to ways of practicing politics uh you know ways of practicing politics uh you know ways of practicing politics uh you know approaches to pluralism, approaches to approaches to pluralism, approaches to approaches to pluralism, approaches to to to the human being. So now you could to to the human being. So now you could to to the human being. So now you could say and I think this would be true. I say and I think this would be true. I say and I think this would be true. I mean I come out of um Jewish tradition mean I come out of um Jewish tradition mean I come out of um Jewish tradition and I probably have a lot of that in the and I probably have a lot of that in the and I probably have a lot of that in the way I look at the world. But I do think way I look at the world. But I do think way I look at the world. But I do think there is something about the there is something about the there is something about the emphasis there on a certain kind of emphasis there on a certain kind of emphasis there on a certain kind of human dignity and a certain kind of human dignity and a certain kind of human dignity and a certain kind of treatment between people that Trump has treatment between people that Trump has treatment between people that Trump has thrown into a kind of relief. So maybe thrown into a kind of relief. So maybe thrown into a kind of relief. So maybe it looks more explicitly connected to a it looks more explicitly connected to a it looks more explicitly connected to a politics I am interested in in trying to politics I am interested in in trying to politics I am interested in in trying to create than it would have if he had create than it would have if he had create than it would have if he had written the same thing but Jeb Jeb Bush written the same thing but Jeb Jeb Bush written the same thing but Jeb Jeb Bush was president.

was president. was president. >> Yes. Maybe at this point we have sort of >> Yes. Maybe at this point we have sort of >> Yes. Maybe at this point we have sort of moved through the Trump era to a point moved through the Trump era to a point moved through the Trump era to a point where um liberals are saying like okay where um liberals are saying like okay where um liberals are saying like okay Trump is so corrupt and such a rotten Trump is so corrupt and such a rotten Trump is so corrupt and such a rotten person in all these ways and so what if person in all these ways and so what if person in all these ways and so what if we counterpose a kind of beautiful we counterpose a kind of beautiful we counterpose a kind of beautiful politics of human dignity against him politics of human dignity against him politics of human dignity against him but that's after trying for many years but that's after trying for many years but that's after trying for many years to say and and again not you personally to say and and again not you personally to say and and again not you personally maybe but some some people right saying maybe but some some people right saying maybe but some some people right saying Trump is rotten and corrupt and his Trump is rotten and corrupt and his Trump is rotten and corrupt and his rottness and corruption reveals the dark rottness and corruption reveals the dark rottness and corruption reveals the dark racist heart of America and the fact racist heart of America and the fact racist heart of America and the fact that we're all still enthralled to that we're all still enthralled to that we're all still enthralled to Confederate patriarchal values and what Confederate patriarchal values and what Confederate patriarchal values and what we need is, you know, a sort of total we need is, you know, a sort of total we need is, you know, a sort of total moral reckoning with all the deep moral reckoning with all the deep moral reckoning with all the deep profound evils of the United States. profound evils of the United States. profound evils of the United States. Like those are different messages. And I Like those are different messages. And I Like those are different messages. And I think the left kind of ran with the think the left kind of ran with the think the left kind of ran with the second message for a while and again I second message for a while and again I second message for a while and again I think ended up in some culde-sacs and think ended up in some culde-sacs and think ended up in some culde-sacs and dark places. And so now it's like, okay, dark places. And so now it's like, okay, dark places. And so now it's like, okay, now maybe we'll maybe we like that Pope now maybe we'll maybe we like that Pope now maybe we'll maybe we like that Pope Leo is linking his critique of AI to a Leo is linking his critique of AI to a Leo is linking his critique of AI to a vision of human dignity rather than a vision of human dignity rather than a vision of human dignity rather than a dark just a a purely dark vision where dark just a a purely dark vision where dark just a a purely dark vision where you're like AI is bad because it is you're like AI is bad because it is you're like AI is bad because it is controlled by, controlled by, controlled by, you know, you know, you know, um the evil evil ruthless tech bros or um the evil evil ruthless tech bros or um the evil evil ruthless tech bros or something. I I don't or you or or AI is something. I I don't or you or or AI is something. I I don't or you or or AI is bad because it's part of the horrifying

bad because it's part of the horrifying bad because it's part of the horrifying structures of capitalism which are a structures of capitalism which are a structures of capitalism which are a nightmare from which we're struggling to nightmare from which we're struggling to nightmare from which we're struggling to await. await. await. >> So I want to go back to to a question I >> So I want to go back to to a question I >> So I want to go back to to a question I asked you a bit ago. that asked you what asked you a bit ago. that asked you what asked you a bit ago. that asked you what being the the sort of conservative in being the the sort of conservative in being the the sort of conservative in many liberal institutions had taught you many liberal institutions had taught you many liberal institutions had taught you about liberals sort of answered that but about liberals sort of answered that but about liberals sort of answered that but I think over time I think over time I think over time >> I don't know yeah I don't know if I did >> I don't know yeah I don't know if I did >> I don't know yeah I don't know if I did answer that but answer that but answer that but >> what about the media right you you've >> what about the media right you you've >> what about the media right you you've been you know inside the media for a been you know inside the media for a been you know inside the media for a long time what has it made you think long time what has it made you think long time what has it made you think about what the media does well what it about what the media does well what it about what the media does well what it does poorly does poorly does poorly >> when I was coming up right the media had >> when I was coming up right the media had >> when I was coming up right the media had its kind of self-conception where it was its kind of self-conception where it was its kind of self-conception where it was like we're just telling you the truth like we're just telling you the truth like we're just telling you the truth about the world that's it we're just about the world that's it we're just about the world that's it we're just reporting the truth reporting the truth reporting the truth and we're not partisan and we won't even and we're not partisan and we won't even and we're not partisan and we won't even tell you if we voted for Republicans and tell you if we voted for Republicans and tell you if we voted for Republicans and Democrats. We're just in the truth Democrats. We're just in the truth Democrats. We're just in the truth business. And then people in our cohort business. And then people in our cohort business. And then people in our cohort came along and challenged that, right? came along and challenged that, right? came along and challenged that, right? And obviously the right had been And obviously the right had been And obviously the right had been challenging it for a long time. Parts of challenging it for a long time. Parts of challenging it for a long time. Parts of the far left, Nam Chosky and so on had the far left, Nam Chosky and so on had the far left, Nam Chosky and so on had always had this critique, but the always had this critique, but the always had this critique, but the internet helped make those critiques internet helped make those critiques internet helped make those critiques much more powerful. And there was just a much more powerful. And there was just a much more powerful. And there was just a sense that okay, we you know are moving sense that okay, we you know are moving sense that okay, we you know are moving into a landscape that is more opinion into a landscape that is more opinion into a landscape that is more opinion driven as as you said earlier where driven as as you said earlier where driven as as you said earlier where we're going to acknowledge biases. We're we're going to acknowledge biases. We're we're going to acknowledge biases. We're going to accept that the New York Times going to accept that the New York Times going to accept that the New York Times seems to have a pretty liberal audience, seems to have a pretty liberal audience, seems to have a pretty liberal audience, right? and a lot of liberals work for right? and a lot of liberals work for right? and a lot of liberals work for it. Like we're not, you know, it's not it. Like we're not, you know, it's not it. Like we're not, you know, it's not just a view from nowhere and Fox News is just a view from nowhere and Fox News is just a view from nowhere and Fox News is going to make, you know, it's going to going to make, you know, it's going to going to make, you know, it's going to be explicitly conservative and that like be explicitly conservative and that like be explicitly conservative and that like a future where the American media looks, a future where the American media looks, a future where the American media looks, you know, looks a bit more like the you know, looks a bit more like the you know, looks a bit more like the British newspaper business did where you British newspaper business did where you British newspaper business did where you have like, you know, you know that the

have like, you know, you know that the have like, you know, you know that the Guardian is the liberal newspaper and, Guardian is the liberal newspaper and, Guardian is the liberal newspaper and, you know, the Telegraph is a more you know, the Telegraph is a more you know, the Telegraph is a more conservative newspaper that like that conservative newspaper that like that conservative newspaper that like that was sort of where America was going to was sort of where America was going to was sort of where America was going to go and it was okay, right? right? It was go and it was okay, right? right? It was go and it was okay, right? right? It was it was okay to have sort of competing it was okay to have sort of competing it was okay to have sort of competing media institutions that sort of own media institutions that sort of own media institutions that sort of own their biases in various ways. Um their biases in various ways. Um their biases in various ways. Um but you know we've lived in that kind of but you know we've lived in that kind of but you know we've lived in that kind of world I think for a while now. I don't world I think for a while now. I don't world I think for a while now. I don't know the Trump era, the AI era, the know the Trump era, the AI era, the know the Trump era, the AI era, the COVID era and so on. They I I feel like COVID era and so on. They I I feel like COVID era and so on. They I I feel like they have really undermined they have really undermined they have really undermined my my own sense of sort of knowing who I my my own sense of sort of knowing who I my my own sense of sort of knowing who I think the good guys and bad guys are in think the good guys and bad guys are in think the good guys and bad guys are in any particular circumstance. And the any particular circumstance. And the any particular circumstance. And the less you feel like the less you feel less you feel like the less you feel less you feel like the less you feel certain about knowing who the good guys certain about knowing who the good guys certain about knowing who the good guys and bad guys are, the more you and bad guys are, the more you and bad guys are, the more you feel the benefit of just like setting feel the benefit of just like setting feel the benefit of just like setting out every day to just sort of try and out every day to just sort of try and out every day to just sort of try and describe the world like and maybe maybe describe the world like and maybe maybe describe the world like and maybe maybe become less of a persuader. I feel like become less of a persuader. I feel like become less of a persuader. I feel like I write maybe more columns like that I write maybe more columns like that I write maybe more columns like that these days. As the world gets weirder, these days. As the world gets weirder, these days. As the world gets weirder, journalism needs people and institutions journalism needs people and institutions journalism needs people and institutions that sort of that sort of that sort of refocus on just saying, "We're trying to refocus on just saying, "We're trying to refocus on just saying, "We're trying to we're trying to figure out what's we're trying to figure out what's we're trying to figure out what's happening here." Cuz I'm struggling to happening here." Cuz I'm struggling to happening here." Cuz I'm struggling to figure out exactly what's happening in a figure out exactly what's happening in a figure out exactly what's happening in a way that I don't think I was when Mitt way that I don't think I was when Mitt way that I don't think I was when Mitt Romney and Barack Obama were running Romney and Barack Obama were running Romney and Barack Obama were running against each other. Um, and maybe this

against each other. Um, and maybe this against each other. Um, and maybe this leads to like, you know, you wanted to leads to like, you know, you wanted to leads to like, you know, you wanted to ask me about ask me about ask me about >> you're going to 60 minutes, >> you're going to 60 minutes, >> you're going to 60 minutes, >> which is the first place you have worked >> which is the first place you have worked >> which is the first place you have worked in media that The Atlantic is a is a in media that The Atlantic is a is a in media that The Atlantic is a is a magazine that is opinionated at its at magazine that is opinionated at its at magazine that is opinionated at its at its core. It it's launched initially as its core. It it's launched initially as its core. It it's launched initially as an abolitionist magazine. You worked on an abolitionist magazine. You worked on an abolitionist magazine. You worked on the Times opinion page. 60 Minutes is the Times opinion page. 60 Minutes is the Times opinion page. 60 Minutes is different although it's under now Barry different although it's under now Barry different although it's under now Barry Weiss's management. Um, your former Weiss's management. Um, your former Weiss's management. Um, your former colleague here. I never over overlapped colleague here. I never over overlapped colleague here. I never over overlapped with Weiss here, with Weiss here, with Weiss here, >> but is that you know I'll ask the >> but is that you know I'll ask the >> but is that you know I'll ask the question straight. Is that part of why question straight. Is that part of why question straight. Is that part of why you're going to 60 Minutes? you're going to 60 Minutes? you're going to 60 Minutes? >> I think that so I have You have been >> I think that so I have You have been >> I think that so I have You have been doing interview podcast for a long time. doing interview podcast for a long time. doing interview podcast for a long time. >> Uh I've only been doing it for you know >> Uh I've only been doing it for you know >> Uh I've only been doing it for you know less less than two years. But presum less less than two years. But presum less less than two years. But presum presumably I'm going to be doing a lot presumably I'm going to be doing a lot presumably I'm going to be doing a lot of interviewing, right? That's my hope. of interviewing, right? That's my hope. of interviewing, right? That's my hope. And I I find interviewing I don't know And I I find interviewing I don't know And I I find interviewing I don't know how you find interviewing. I find it how you find interviewing. I find it how you find interviewing. I find it very difficult relative to writing. Um, very difficult relative to writing. Um, very difficult relative to writing. Um, writing just comes easier and more writing just comes easier and more writing just comes easier and more naturally to me than than interviewing naturally to me than than interviewing naturally to me than than interviewing does. Um, but I have found interviewing does. Um, but I have found interviewing does. Um, but I have found interviewing just very helpful at a moment when like just very helpful at a moment when like just very helpful at a moment when like what is actually going on in the world what is actually going on in the world what is actually going on in the world seems more opaque to me. And so, yeah, seems more opaque to me. And so, yeah, seems more opaque to me. And so, yeah, one one reason to take a job at 60 one one reason to take a job at 60 one one reason to take a job at 60 Minutes is just an opportunity to sort Minutes is just an opportunity to sort Minutes is just an opportunity to sort of do more of that for for a somewhat of do more of that for for a somewhat of do more of that for for a somewhat different audience than than the Times different audience than than the Times different audience than than the Times has, although of course there's overlap, has, although of course there's overlap, has, although of course there's overlap, but um yeah, this is sort of and this is but um yeah, this is sort of and this is but um yeah, this is sort of and this is yeah, this this seems like a good time a yeah, this this seems like a good time a yeah, this this seems like a good time a good time to to ask questions a little good time to to ask questions a little good time to to ask questions a little bit in an open-ended way. Um, and that's

bit in an open-ended way. Um, and that's bit in an open-ended way. Um, and that's I guess, you know, that's what we've I guess, you know, that's what we've I guess, you know, that's what we've both been doing with our shows, but both been doing with our shows, but both been doing with our shows, but that's sort of what I'm thinking I'll be that's sort of what I'm thinking I'll be that's sort of what I'm thinking I'll be doing there. doing there. doing there. >> Obviously, you're talking here in the >> Obviously, you're talking here in the >> Obviously, you're talking here in the way you often do to a audience that is way you often do to a audience that is way you often do to a audience that is more liberal than you. Um, and who is more liberal than you. Um, and who is more liberal than you. Um, and who is >> in spite of in spite of reading my >> in spite of in spite of reading my >> in spite of in spite of reading my columns all these years, Ezra, who columns all these years, Ezra, who columns all these years, Ezra, who workers concerned about what uh they workers concerned about what uh they workers concerned about what uh they they think Barry Weiss wants to do with they think Barry Weiss wants to do with they think Barry Weiss wants to do with 60 Minutes, what it means that that 60 Minutes, what it means that that 60 Minutes, what it means that that you're one of the the first bigname you're one of the the first bigname you're one of the the first bigname hires there. What did they say they hires there. What did they say they hires there. What did they say they wanted? like what what is your sense of wanted? like what what is your sense of wanted? like what what is your sense of what 60 Minutes um is trying to become, what 60 Minutes um is trying to become, what 60 Minutes um is trying to become, you know, with you launching with you as you know, with you launching with you as you know, with you launching with you as a marquee name? a marquee name? a marquee name? >> You would you would need to get Barry to >> You would you would need to get Barry to >> You would you would need to get Barry to come on your podcast, right? To get sort come on your podcast, right? To get sort come on your podcast, right? To get sort of her answer to that question. I again of her answer to that question. I again of her answer to that question. I again I see what what I want to do at 60 I see what what I want to do at 60 I see what what I want to do at 60 Minutes in the show itself I think is in Minutes in the show itself I think is in Minutes in the show itself I think is in keeping with what the show has always keeping with what the show has always keeping with what the show has always done incredibly well which is yeah help done incredibly well which is yeah help done incredibly well which is yeah help help people understand what's really help people understand what's really help people understand what's really happening in the world and get sort of happening in the world and get sort of happening in the world and get sort of an accurate sense of reality itself an accurate sense of reality itself an accurate sense of reality itself through interviews investigations and so through interviews investigations and so through interviews investigations and so on that that's sort of I I think if you on that that's sort of I I think if you on that that's sort of I I think if you had Barry here she would say that is her had Barry here she would say that is her had Barry here she would say that is her formal goal that lots and lots of media formal goal that lots and lots of media formal goal that lots and lots of media institutions have lost the trust of institutions have lost the trust of institutions have lost the trust of people um who aren't politically liberal people um who aren't politically liberal people um who aren't politically liberal or progressive. And so there's a way to or progressive. And so there's a way to or progressive. And so there's a way to sort of try and have a more balanced sort of try and have a more balanced sort of try and have a more balanced view of the world and try and get those view of the world and try and get those view of the world and try and get those people back. My own primary sense of people back. My own primary sense of people back. My own primary sense of what 60 Minutes can do is more just what 60 Minutes can do is more just what 60 Minutes can do is more just capture the full messy reality of the

capture the full messy reality of the capture the full messy reality of the world in 2026. And if you get that world in 2026. And if you get that world in 2026. And if you get that right, then exactly how many Republicans right, then exactly how many Republicans right, then exactly how many Republicans versus Democrats you're reaching is versus Democrats you're reaching is versus Democrats you're reaching is like, you know, that that will sort of like, you know, that that will sort of like, you know, that that will sort of follow from success at the basic project follow from success at the basic project follow from success at the basic project of describing the world. of describing the world. of describing the world. >> You mentioned a minute ago the other big >> You mentioned a minute ago the other big >> You mentioned a minute ago the other big change in this, which is you're moving change in this, which is you're moving change in this, which is you're moving from writing to on camera interviewing, from writing to on camera interviewing, from writing to on camera interviewing, which you've already done a bit with which you've already done a bit with which you've already done a bit with Interesting Times, your podcast. Interesting Times, your podcast. Interesting Times, your podcast. This is another big shift from when you This is another big shift from when you This is another big shift from when you and I started, which is there is a lot and I started, which is there is a lot and I started, which is there is a lot of movement now towards video. There's a of movement now towards video. There's a of movement now towards video. There's a lot of people who talk about uh a return lot of people who talk about uh a return lot of people who talk about uh a return to more orality and culture, but but is to more orality and culture, but but is to more orality and culture, but but is that part of it for you? I mean do you that part of it for you? I mean do you that part of it for you? I mean do you do you have the sense that the do you have the sense that the do you have the sense that the center of what journalism is the way center of what journalism is the way center of what journalism is the way people are understanding the world is people are understanding the world is people are understanding the world is moving away from the written word? Yes. moving away from the written word? Yes. moving away from the written word? Yes. I I I think there is some there's I I I think there is some there's I I I think there is some there's clearly some way in which internet clearly some way in which internet clearly some way in which internet conditions, digital conditions and conditions, digital conditions and conditions, digital conditions and whatever the hell is going to happen whatever the hell is going to happen whatever the hell is going to happen with AI are sort of weakening the hold with AI are sort of weakening the hold with AI are sort of weakening the hold of the written word. I've certainly kept of the written word. I've certainly kept of the written word. I've certainly kept writing while doing my show. uh at the writing while doing my show. uh at the writing while doing my show. uh at the times and I intend to find ways to keep times and I intend to find ways to keep times and I intend to find ways to keep writing um while I'm working for CBS. So writing um while I'm working for CBS. So writing um while I'm working for CBS. So I I that's that part of journalism is I I that's that part of journalism is I I that's that part of journalism is very important to me. But yeah people very important to me. But yeah people very important to me. But yeah people like it's not only podcast and audio like it's not only podcast and audio like it's not only podcast and audio right like in you know if you look at

right like in you know if you look at right like in you know if you look at like what people engage with at the New like what people engage with at the New like what people engage with at the New York Times they also engage with written York Times they also engage with written York Times they also engage with written dialogues like they loved the feature dialogues like they loved the feature dialogues like they loved the feature that our colleagues Brett Stevens and that our colleagues Brett Stevens and that our colleagues Brett Stevens and Gail Collins or David Brooks and Gail Gail Collins or David Brooks and Gail Gail Collins or David Brooks and Gail Collins did of sort of a conversation Collins did of sort of a conversation Collins did of sort of a conversation back and forth. They really like the back and forth. They really like the back and forth. They really like the features um that my longtime editor John features um that my longtime editor John features um that my longtime editor John Guida does where he'll sort of interview Guida does where he'll sort of interview Guida does where he'll sort of interview someone in a a written form where you're someone in a a written form where you're someone in a a written form where you're writing and people are writing writing writing and people are writing writing writing and people are writing writing in response. in response. in response. >> Yeah. The transcripts of our shows. >> Yeah. The transcripts of our shows. >> Yeah. The transcripts of our shows. >> Yeah. And and some of it I think is that >> Yeah. And and some of it I think is that >> Yeah. And and some of it I think is that people want to see the person underneath people want to see the person underneath people want to see the person underneath the writing. And maybe this becomes more the writing. And maybe this becomes more the writing. And maybe this becomes more the case in the age of AI. Tyler Cowan the case in the age of AI. Tyler Cowan the case in the age of AI. Tyler Cowan who you know you you know his work well. who you know you you know his work well. who you know you you know his work well. One of his arguments about AI is that it One of his arguments about AI is that it One of his arguments about AI is that it basically is just going to increase the basically is just going to increase the basically is just going to increase the premium for for instance live premium for for instance live premium for for instance live performance, right? For the the ability performance, right? For the the ability performance, right? For the the ability to to speak in public and engage with to to speak in public and engage with to to speak in public and engage with questions and all these kind of human questions and all these kind of human questions and all these kind of human things will go up as AI can generate things will go up as AI can generate things will go up as AI can generate more writing. And I think dialogue and more writing. And I think dialogue and more writing. And I think dialogue and conversation are sort of versions of conversation are sort of versions of conversation are sort of versions of that, places where sort of writers and that, places where sort of writers and that, places where sort of writers and thinkers sort of show their own thinkers sort of show their own thinkers sort of show their own humanities. maybe a little bit more than humanities. maybe a little bit more than humanities. maybe a little bit more than you do in a kind of voice from the you do in a kind of voice from the you do in a kind of voice from the mountaintop column. Um, and then again, mountaintop column. Um, and then again, mountaintop column. Um, and then again, maybe this is just me projecting my own maybe this is just me projecting my own maybe this is just me projecting my own perspective onto the world, but I also perspective onto the world, but I also perspective onto the world, but I also think people like these things because think people like these things because think people like these things because like like me, they're a little uncertain like like me, they're a little uncertain like like me, they're a little uncertain about what's what's happening in about what's what's happening in about what's what's happening in reality. And the kind of conversational reality. And the kind of conversational reality. And the kind of conversational form is a way into the news and what's

form is a way into the news and what's form is a way into the news and what's going on in the world that doesn't going on in the world that doesn't going on in the world that doesn't require you to sort of accept a single require you to sort of accept a single require you to sort of accept a single authoritative take and leaves room for authoritative take and leaves room for authoritative take and leaves room for uncertainty and ambiguity while also uncertainty and ambiguity while also uncertainty and ambiguity while also introducing you to perspectives that you introducing you to perspectives that you introducing you to perspectives that you might not have considered. That's that's might not have considered. That's that's might not have considered. That's that's the positive case for it. I can also the positive case for it. I can also the positive case for it. I can also make the negative case and say that you make the negative case and say that you make the negative case and say that you know a world yeah where people read less know a world yeah where people read less know a world yeah where people read less and are less literate um has various and are less literate um has various and are less literate um has various negative repercussions. I'm not I'm not negative repercussions. I'm not I'm not negative repercussions. I'm not I'm not trying to like sort of be too polyianish trying to like sort of be too polyianish trying to like sort of be too polyianish about this change at the very least is a about this change at the very least is a about this change at the very least is a real shift I think. real shift I think. real shift I think. >> Do you think with the reporting >> Do you think with the reporting >> Do you think with the reporting resources of 60 Minutes behind you resources of 60 Minutes behind you resources of 60 Minutes behind you you'll finally be able to crack you'll finally be able to crack you'll finally be able to crack >> what the UAPs are? Yeah, I I mean, look, >> what the UAPs are? Yeah, I I mean, look, >> what the UAPs are? Yeah, I I mean, look, this is obviously the number one goal this is obviously the number one goal this is obviously the number one goal and um you know, I I've said if I if I and um you know, I I've said if I if I and um you know, I I've said if I if I can't break the UFO story in I I don't can't break the UFO story in I I don't can't break the UFO story in I I don't want to make any promises, want to make any promises, want to make any promises, but yes, the subject of UFOs has has but yes, the subject of UFOs has has but yes, the subject of UFOs has has come up at once or twice, maybe only come up at once or twice, maybe only come up at once or twice, maybe only from my end in in conversations about from my end in in conversations about from my end in in conversations about stories that that uh the media should be stories that that uh the media should be stories that that uh the media should be interested in going forward.

interested in going forward. interested in going forward. you you talked here about the the sort you you talked here about the the sort you you talked here about the the sort of messy edges of reality and and and of messy edges of reality and and and of messy edges of reality and and and your sense of not knowing quite uh of your sense of not knowing quite uh of your sense of not knowing quite uh of being less certain than you've been at being less certain than you've been at being less certain than you've been at other times and I you know I bring up other times and I you know I bring up other times and I you know I bring up the UFO thing not totally ingested I the UFO thing not totally ingested I the UFO thing not totally ingested I think it actually has become an think it actually has become an think it actually has become an important part of of your work and to me important part of of your work and to me important part of of your work and to me that and sort of a a deeper skepticism that and sort of a a deeper skepticism that and sort of a a deeper skepticism of knowing who to trust of knowing what of knowing who to trust of knowing what of knowing who to trust of knowing what kind of information to trust has begun kind of information to trust has begun kind of information to trust has begun to characterize your work. So when you to characterize your work. So when you to characterize your work. So when you think about navigating the think about navigating the think about navigating the boundaries of a reality whose boundaries boundaries of a reality whose boundaries boundaries of a reality whose boundaries seem less certain to you, like how do seem less certain to you, like how do seem less certain to you, like how do you think about how do I think about you think about how do I think about you think about how do I think about journalism? How do I think I so when I journalism? How do I think I so when I journalism? How do I think I so when I thought of the UFO story as just a story thought of the UFO story as just a story thought of the UFO story as just a story about people who have weird experiences about people who have weird experiences about people who have weird experiences in the woods and come back and claim to in the woods and come back and claim to in the woods and come back and claim to have been abducted by UFOs, right? Like have been abducted by UFOs, right? Like have been abducted by UFOs, right? Like that story is interesting, but it's it's that story is interesting, but it's it's that story is interesting, but it's it's not it's not intensely interesting not it's not intensely interesting not it's not intensely interesting because it's so personalized. Like because it's so personalized. Like because it's so personalized. Like you're not going to get it's like sort you're not going to get it's like sort you're not going to get it's like sort of analyzing someone's religious of analyzing someone's religious of analyzing someone's religious experience. It's really interesting to experience. It's really interesting to experience. It's really interesting to do, but you're not going to get a sort do, but you're not going to get a sort do, but you're not going to get a sort of final decisive answer. Like if of final decisive answer. Like if of final decisive answer. Like if someone describes their religious someone describes their religious someone describes their religious experience, there's no journalistic experience, there's no journalistic experience, there's no journalistic trick that can tell you was that really trick that can tell you was that really trick that can tell you was that really God or not. But with UFOs, like there God or not. But with UFOs, like there God or not. But with UFOs, like there are concrete claims made about objects are concrete claims made about objects are concrete claims made about objects that operate in physical reality that that operate in physical reality that that operate in physical reality that are observed by let's say Navy aviators are observed by let's say Navy aviators are observed by let's say Navy aviators and there are other concrete claims and there are other concrete claims and there are other concrete claims about supposed secret programs that the about supposed secret programs that the about supposed secret programs that the federal government has. And those are

federal government has. And those are federal government has. And those are questions that journalists should be questions that journalists should be questions that journalists should be able to answer. So, I'm interested in able to answer. So, I'm interested in able to answer. So, I'm interested in the UFO story in particular, but also the UFO story in particular, but also the UFO story in particular, but also other questions like, you know, the other questions like, you know, the other questions like, you know, the debates that we're already having about debates that we're already having about debates that we're already having about AI consciousness, these kind of things. AI consciousness, these kind of things. AI consciousness, these kind of things. Not because I think they are unknowable, Not because I think they are unknowable, Not because I think they are unknowable, but because I think that they actually but because I think that they actually but because I think that they actually do presumably have answers, right? Like do presumably have answers, right? Like do presumably have answers, right? Like maybe the AI consciousness debate will maybe the AI consciousness debate will maybe the AI consciousness debate will never be resolved or something, but like never be resolved or something, but like never be resolved or something, but like the question of how dangerous AI is the question of how dangerous AI is the question of how dangerous AI is going to be, how transformative AI is going to be, how transformative AI is going to be, how transformative AI is going to be. Guess what? We're going to going to be. Guess what? We're going to going to be. Guess what? We're going to find out. Like I know people, smart find out. Like I know people, smart find out. Like I know people, smart people in Silicon Valley who talk about people in Silicon Valley who talk about people in Silicon Valley who talk about all human timelines now in terms of like all human timelines now in terms of like all human timelines now in terms of like three years, right? They're like, "Oh, three years, right? They're like, "Oh, three years, right? They're like, "Oh, if you don't do it in the next 3 years, if you don't do it in the next 3 years, if you don't do it in the next 3 years, you're not you're not going to do it you're not you're not going to do it you're not you're not going to do it because the singularity is coming." Now, because the singularity is coming." Now, because the singularity is coming." Now, I'm skeptical of that argument, but I'm skeptical of that argument, but I'm skeptical of that argument, but we're going to find out, right, over the we're going to find out, right, over the we're going to find out, right, over the next 3 years whether those kind of next 3 years whether those kind of next 3 years whether those kind of singularity believers are right or not.

singularity believers are right or not. singularity believers are right or not. So, yes, I'm interested in zones of So, yes, I'm interested in zones of So, yes, I'm interested in zones of uncertainty and questions that sort of uncertainty and questions that sort of uncertainty and questions that sort of don't have immediate and obvious answers don't have immediate and obvious answers don't have immediate and obvious answers and questions that touch on the and questions that touch on the and questions that touch on the supernatural or the metaphysical and so supernatural or the metaphysical and so supernatural or the metaphysical and so on. As a journalist, I'm only interested on. As a journalist, I'm only interested on. As a journalist, I'm only interested them in them in so far as you can figure them in them in so far as you can figure them in them in so far as you can figure out what the hell is going on. out what the hell is going on. out what the hell is going on. >> Well, I hope you do. Ross, it's been a >> Well, I hope you do. Ross, it's been a >> Well, I hope you do. Ross, it's been a pleasure working alongside you. pleasure working alongside you. pleasure working alongside you. >> It's been a pleasure for many, many, >> It's been a pleasure for many, many, >> It's been a pleasure for many, many, many years. I'll continue to watch. many years. I'll continue to watch. many years. I'll continue to watch. >> I imagine we will encounter one another >> I imagine we will encounter one another >> I imagine we will encounter one another again after this conversation again after this conversation again after this conversation >> in the singularity. And then always our >> in the singularity. And then always our >> in the singularity. And then always our final question. final question. final question. >> I hope not. >> I hope not. >> I hope not. >> Even in this postitate age, what are >> Even in this postitate age, what are >> Even in this postitate age, what are three books you'd recommend to the three books you'd recommend to the three books you'd recommend to the audience? audience? audience? >> Uh, I forgot about the three books >> Uh, I forgot about the three books >> Uh, I forgot about the three books question. Um, I have been reading uh, question. Um, I have been reading uh, question. Um, I have been reading uh, Speak Memory by Vladimir Nambacov, Speak Memory by Vladimir Nambacov, Speak Memory by Vladimir Nambacov, Nbachov, however you want to pronounce Nbachov, however you want to pronounce Nbachov, however you want to pronounce it, which is his sort of memoir uh, it, which is his sort of memoir uh, it, which is his sort of memoir uh, mostly of his boyhood as a Russian mostly of his boyhood as a Russian mostly of his boyhood as a Russian aristocrat before the Russian the aristocrat before the Russian the aristocrat before the Russian the Russian Revolution. Uh, I would I would Russian Revolution. Uh, I would I would Russian Revolution. Uh, I would I would recommend that to people who don't want recommend that to people who don't want recommend that to people who don't want to be post-literate, who want to be very to be post-literate, who want to be very to be post-literate, who want to be very very literate indeed.

very literate indeed. very literate indeed. Uh I will recommend uh Julian Jackson's Uh I will recommend uh Julian Jackson's Uh I will recommend uh Julian Jackson's biography of Charles de Gaulle on biography of Charles de Gaulle on biography of Charles de Gaulle on general principles. I haven't read it general principles. I haven't read it general principles. I haven't read it recently but just strong strong recently but just strong strong recently but just strong strong recommend there. And I will finally recommend there. And I will finally recommend there. And I will finally recommend the most recent book that I recommend the most recent book that I recommend the most recent book that I read to my children which is Robert read to my children which is Robert read to my children which is Robert Lewis Stevenson's Treasure Island. So Lewis Stevenson's Treasure Island. So Lewis Stevenson's Treasure Island. So those are three solid recommendations those are three solid recommendations those are three solid recommendations and I'm happy to leave you with them. and I'm happy to leave you with them. and I'm happy to leave you with them. Rosetta, thank you very much. Rosetta, thank you very much. Rosetta, thank you very much. >> As recline, thank you