Platner’s Top Strategist on What Went Wrong | The Ezra Klein Show

The Democratic party's in a tense moment The Democratic party's in a tense moment right now and the implosion of Graham right now and the implosion of Graham right now and the implosion of Graham Platner Senate campaign in Maine has Platner Senate campaign in Maine has Platner Senate campaign in Maine has become a focal point for those tensions. become a focal point for those tensions. become a focal point for those tensions. >> Democrat Grant Platner said he is >> Democrat Grant Platner said he is >> Democrat Grant Platner said he is dropping out of his state senate race. dropping out of his state senate race. dropping out of his state senate race. It follows allegations of rape and It follows allegations of rape and It follows allegations of rape and physical abuse, which he denies. physical abuse, which he denies. physical abuse, which he denies. >> I just want to make it clear this is all >> I just want to make it clear this is all >> I just want to make it clear this is all false. false. false. >> After months of debating what the >> After months of debating what the >> After months of debating what the lessons of Platner's sudden rise were, lessons of Platner's sudden rise were, lessons of Platner's sudden rise were, now it's all about the lessons of his now it's all about the lessons of his now it's all about the lessons of his even more sudden [music] fall. And every even more sudden [music] fall. And every even more sudden [music] fall. And every faction has a lesson and wants the other faction has a lesson and wants the other faction has a lesson and wants the other faction to learn. To the Democratic faction to learn. To the Democratic faction to learn. To the Democratic establishment, it shows the failures of establishment, it shows the failures of establishment, it shows the failures of the populace to vet their candidates. the populace to vet their candidates. the populace to vet their candidates. You can't trust them. Look at how You can't trust them. Look at how You can't trust them. Look at how Platner fell apart under scrutiny. What Platner fell apart under scrutiny. What Platner fell apart under scrutiny. What if that had happened after the date when if that had happened after the date when if that had happened after the date when Maine's Democratic party could still Maine's Democratic party could still Maine's Democratic party could still choose a new candidate? The populace choose a new candidate? The populace choose a new candidate? The populace want to protect what Platner seemed to want to protect what Platner seemed to want to protect what Platner seemed to be proving [music] before his implosion. be proving [music] before his implosion. be proving [music] before his implosion. That the Democratic establishment is That the Democratic establishment is That the Democratic establishment is intensely vulnerable, that it's out of intensely vulnerable, that it's out of intensely vulnerable, that it's out of touch with [music] the electorate. touch with [music] the electorate. touch with [music] the electorate. Platner did after all beat Janet Mills, Platner did after all beat Janet Mills, Platner did after all beat Janet Mills, the sitting governor of Maine, Chuck the sitting governor of Maine, Chuck the sitting governor of Maine, Chuck Schumer's handpicked candidate before Schumer's handpicked candidate before Schumer's handpicked candidate before his campaign [music] collapsed. And a his campaign [music] collapsed. And a his campaign [music] collapsed. And a lot of the anger has focused on Morris lot of the anger has focused on Morris lot of the anger has focused on Morris Katz, a strategist at the political Katz, a strategist at the political Katz, a strategist at the political consulting firm Fight Agency. You may consulting firm Fight Agency. You may consulting firm Fight Agency. You may not have heard of Morris Katz, but he is not have heard of Morris Katz, but he is not have heard of Morris Katz, but he is a consultant in his late 20s, so he's a consultant in his late 20s, so he's a consultant in his late 20s, so he's young. And he sort of burst onto the young. And he sort of burst onto the young. And he sort of burst onto the scene as Zoran Mdani's key political scene as Zoran Mdani's key political scene as Zoran Mdani's key political adviser and then as Platner's adviser and then as Platner's adviser and then as Platner's strategist. But before that, Katz was strategist. But before that, Katz was strategist. But before that, Katz was the admaker for John Federman's [music] the admaker for John Federman's [music] the admaker for John Federman's [music] 2022 campaign. He was one of the key 2022 campaign. He was one of the key 2022 campaign. He was one of the key strategists on Dan Osborne's independent strategists on Dan Osborne's independent strategists on Dan Osborne's independent run for Senate in Nebraska in 2024.

run for Senate in Nebraska in 2024. run for Senate in Nebraska in 2024. [music] So, there's been a certain kind [music] So, there's been a certain kind [music] So, there's been a certain kind of working class coded populist campaign of working class coded populist campaign of working class coded populist campaign [music] that cats has really become [music] that cats has really become [music] that cats has really become central and defining. So, here was this central and defining. So, here was this central and defining. So, here was this guy who people really hadn't heard of guy who people really hadn't heard of guy who people really hadn't heard of before and it [music] was the right-hand before and it [music] was the right-hand before and it [music] was the right-hand man of the two Democratic politicians man of the two Democratic politicians man of the two Democratic politicians probably getting the most press this probably getting the most press this probably getting the most press this year. And now among both the left and year. And now among both the left and year. And now among both the left and the center, the knives are out for him. the center, the knives are out for him. the center, the knives are out for him. You [music] have all these stories about You [music] have all these stories about You [music] have all these stories about the slipshot way he was running the the slipshot way he was running the the slipshot way he was running the campaign. He had a DSA letter being campaign. He had a DSA letter being campaign. He had a DSA letter being circulated trying to argue that the DSA circulated trying to argue that the DSA circulated trying to argue that the DSA shouldn't work with him any longer. And shouldn't work with him any longer. And shouldn't work with him any longer. And I think you can really see this one both I think you can really see this one both I think you can really see this one both ways. Catz made genuinely huge mistakes. ways. Catz made genuinely huge mistakes. ways. Catz made genuinely huge mistakes. It is very possible that the failure to It is very possible that the failure to It is very possible that the failure to effectively vet Platner could have cost effectively vet Platner could have cost effectively vet Platner could have cost Democrats the Senate this year. Katz has Democrats the Senate this year. Katz has Democrats the Senate this year. Katz has also clearly figured something out about also clearly figured something out about also clearly figured something out about this political moment that strategists this political moment that strategists this political moment that strategists many years a senior have not. So I many years a senior have not. So I many years a senior have not. So I wanted to have him on the show. Ask him wanted to have him on the show. Ask him wanted to have him on the show. Ask him both about what he clearly has gotten both about what he clearly has gotten both about what he clearly has gotten right and what he just as [music] right and what he just as [music] right and what he just as [music] clearly got wrong. As always my email clearly got wrong. As always my email clearly got wrong. As always my email esroclow@ny esroclow@ny esroclow@ny times.com. [music] >> Morris Katz, welcome to the show.

>> Morris Katz, welcome to the show. >> Thanks for having me. It's good to be >> Thanks for having me. It's good to be >> Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. So, we're talking in the aftermath here. So, we're talking in the aftermath here. So, we're talking in the aftermath of Graham Platner's campaign imploding of Graham Platner's campaign imploding of Graham Platner's campaign imploding after a credible accusation of rape. after a credible accusation of rape. after a credible accusation of rape. There's a lot of people angry at you, There's a lot of people angry at you, There's a lot of people angry at you, some of the people you worked with for some of the people you worked with for some of the people you worked with for poorly vetting Platner, but also, I poorly vetting Platner, but also, I poorly vetting Platner, but also, I think, for attacking people who are think, for attacking people who are think, for attacking people who are trying to raise the alarm on him. So, trying to raise the alarm on him. So, trying to raise the alarm on him. So, now that you've had some time to digest now that you've had some time to digest now that you've had some time to digest what's happened, what do you think went what's happened, what do you think went what's happened, what do you think went wrong? wrong? wrong? I think a lot of the critiques and and I think a lot of the critiques and and I think a lot of the critiques and and anger anger anger are are fully valid, you know, like I are are fully valid, you know, like I are are fully valid, you know, like I think I've been very critical of the think I've been very critical of the think I've been very critical of the democratic establishment frequently. And democratic establishment frequently. And democratic establishment frequently. And where those critiques come from is not where those critiques come from is not where those critiques come from is not that they make mistakes. It's that they that they make mistakes. It's that they that they make mistakes. It's that they make the same mistakes over and over make the same mistakes over and over make the same mistakes over and over again because learning from those again because learning from those again because learning from those lessons would pose a threat to their lessons would pose a threat to their lessons would pose a threat to their kind of power. Um, and I don't want to kind of power. Um, and I don't want to kind of power. Um, and I don't want to do that. And I think there are like do that. And I think there are like do that. And I think there are like things here, many of the critiques that things here, many of the critiques that things here, many of the critiques that have been made that are incredibly valid have been made that are incredibly valid have been made that are incredibly valid and things to learn from. You know, I and things to learn from. You know, I and things to learn from. You know, I think the conversation around the think the conversation around the think the conversation around the vetting, uh, there is no standard vetting, uh, there is no standard vetting, uh, there is no standard vetting process that would have found vetting process that would have found vetting process that would have found the credible allegation that ended the the credible allegation that ended the the credible allegation that ended the campaign. You know, Eric Swallwell campaign. You know, Eric Swallwell campaign. You know, Eric Swallwell served on the House Intelligence served on the House Intelligence served on the House Intelligence Committee for a decade and then saw Committee for a decade and then saw Committee for a decade and then saw similar allegations end his campaign.

similar allegations end his campaign. similar allegations end his campaign. That being said, I think in in That being said, I think in in That being said, I think in in hindsight, knowing what we know now, hindsight, knowing what we know now, hindsight, knowing what we know now, the Reddit posts alone probably should the Reddit posts alone probably should the Reddit posts alone probably should have been enough or should have been have been enough or should have been have been enough or should have been enough. Um, the tattoo should have been enough. Um, the tattoo should have been enough. Um, the tattoo should have been enough. The initial New York Times story enough. The initial New York Times story enough. The initial New York Times story on troubling behavior should have been on troubling behavior should have been on troubling behavior should have been enough. And I think both things can be enough. And I think both things can be enough. And I think both things can be true that we need different kinds of true that we need different kinds of true that we need different kinds of candidates running outside of the candidates running outside of the candidates running outside of the political arena and that it's the United political arena and that it's the United political arena and that it's the United States Senate and candies should be held States Senate and candies should be held States Senate and candies should be held to an incredibly high standard. And to an incredibly high standard. And to an incredibly high standard. And there are a lot of incredible people who there are a lot of incredible people who there are a lot of incredible people who are not part of the political arena, a are not part of the political arena, a are not part of the political arena, a lot of incredible working-class lot of incredible working-class lot of incredible working-class Americans across the country who don't Americans across the country who don't Americans across the country who don't have those problematic Reddit posts or have those problematic Reddit posts or have those problematic Reddit posts or who don't have a problematic tattoo or who don't have a problematic tattoo or who don't have a problematic tattoo or don't have quite the level of um don't have quite the level of um don't have quite the level of um controversy in their past. controversy in their past. controversy in their past. >> You described the Reddit post for him at >> You described the Reddit post for him at >> You described the Reddit post for him at one point as an asset. one point as an asset. one point as an asset. I think that there was a belief that I I I think that there was a belief that I I I think that there was a belief that I I am still kind of wrestling with of I am still kind of wrestling with of I am still kind of wrestling with of I think over the course of the campaign, think over the course of the campaign, think over the course of the campaign, one of the things that was really one of the things that was really one of the things that was really frankly inspiring to see I think we have frankly inspiring to see I think we have frankly inspiring to see I think we have so little grace in our politics and so so little grace in our politics and so so little grace in our politics and so little room for nuance and it felt like little room for nuance and it felt like little room for nuance and it felt like this opened up a lot of those this opened up a lot of those this opened up a lot of those conversations. You know, you saw people conversations. You know, you saw people conversations. You know, you saw people just extend such grace and open up their just extend such grace and open up their just extend such grace and open up their hearts and be willing to hope and hearts and be willing to hope and hearts and be willing to hope and believe in not just that we could change believe in not just that we could change believe in not just that we could change our politics, but that people could our politics, but that people could our politics, but that people could change. And I think like that was change. And I think like that was change. And I think like that was something we needed and I don't want to something we needed and I don't want to something we needed and I don't want to to lose that. I don't want people's to lose that. I don't want people's to lose that. I don't want people's lesson from this to be that there should lesson from this to be that there should lesson from this to be that there should never be room for grace. And I think never be room for grace. And I think never be room for grace. And I think that there are a lot of there are a lot that there are a lot of there are a lot that there are a lot of there are a lot of people who've made mistakes or said

of people who've made mistakes or said of people who've made mistakes or said controversial things who we want to win controversial things who we want to win controversial things who we want to win the support of, who we need to earn the the support of, who we need to earn the the support of, who we need to earn the trust of. But I also think I was wrong. trust of. But I also think I was wrong. trust of. But I also think I was wrong. And And And not it's not to say that everyone who not it's not to say that everyone who not it's not to say that everyone who has said controversial things on Reddit has said controversial things on Reddit has said controversial things on Reddit would then have things like this come would then have things like this come would then have things like this come out. Like that's I don't think that's out. Like that's I don't think that's out. Like that's I don't think that's the case. But it's to say that there's a the case. But it's to say that there's a the case. But it's to say that there's a higher risk there of it happening when higher risk there of it happening when higher risk there of it happening when there are things like that and there's there are things like that and there's there are things like that and there's too much at stake and there are so many too much at stake and there are so many too much at stake and there are so many people who don't have that potential people who don't have that potential people who don't have that potential liability and you know it's the United liability and you know it's the United liability and you know it's the United States Senate. I States Senate. I States Senate. I >> I want to go back to the the beginning >> I want to go back to the the beginning >> I want to go back to the the beginning of it. The story has been somewhat told of it. The story has been somewhat told of it. The story has been somewhat told by by Dan Morov but I haven't really by by Dan Morov but I haven't really by by Dan Morov but I haven't really heard you tell it in public. So how did heard you tell it in public. So how did heard you tell it in public. So how did you meet Graham Platner? How did you you meet Graham Platner? How did you you meet Graham Platner? How did you find him? What was the process that led find him? What was the process that led find him? What was the process that led you to him? you to him? you to him? >> The initial kind of factor that led to >> The initial kind of factor that led to >> The initial kind of factor that led to the broader efforts of recruitment in the broader efforts of recruitment in the broader efforts of recruitment in Maine was uh a lot of angst around Janet Maine was uh a lot of angst around Janet Maine was uh a lot of angst around Janet Mills being the presumptive nominee. You Mills being the presumptive nominee. You Mills being the presumptive nominee. You know, this was someone who was polling know, this was someone who was polling know, this was someone who was polling as one of the least popular governors in as one of the least popular governors in as one of the least popular governors in the country, who would have been the the country, who would have been the the country, who would have been the oldest freshman member of the United oldest freshman member of the United oldest freshman member of the United States Senate in Senate history. Um, and States Senate in Senate history. Um, and States Senate in Senate history. Um, and who had made a lot of enemies out of key who had made a lot of enemies out of key who had made a lot of enemies out of key components of Maine labor unions. uh components of Maine labor unions. uh components of Maine labor unions. uh tribes tribes tribes and you know a network of us kind of and you know a network of us kind of and you know a network of us kind of connected with different local folks, connected with different local folks, connected with different local folks, labor leaders, organization leaders with labor leaders, organization leaders with labor leaders, organization leaders with a vision of recruitment. Um and I think a vision of recruitment. Um and I think a vision of recruitment. Um and I think one of the important factors in that is one of the important factors in that is one of the important factors in that is you know there's been a lot of criticism you know there's been a lot of criticism you know there's been a lot of criticism obviously around it but many of the obviously around it but many of the obviously around it but many of the people and I still believe this who are people and I still believe this who are people and I still believe this who are best equipped to serve are not people

best equipped to serve are not people best equipped to serve are not people who are going to raise their hand and who are going to raise their hand and who are going to raise their hand and sign up for it. And so there was a you sign up for it. And so there was a you sign up for it. And so there was a you know a lot of conversation thought know a lot of conversation thought know a lot of conversation thought around you know the kind of candidate around you know the kind of candidate around you know the kind of candidate who could win Maine would be a veteran who could win Maine would be a veteran who could win Maine would be a veteran would be someone from outside of the would be someone from outside of the would be someone from outside of the Portland area IDE you know a community Portland area IDE you know a community Portland area IDE you know a community in which Trump won and someone tied to in which Trump won and someone tied to in which Trump won and someone tied to an industry that has a specific an industry that has a specific an industry that has a specific resonance in Maine. You know the kind of resonance in Maine. You know the kind of resonance in Maine. You know the kind of waterfront industry was a leading factor waterfront industry was a leading factor waterfront industry was a leading factor there and that was then a a broader there and that was then a a broader there and that was then a a broader process and a series of meetings that process and a series of meetings that process and a series of meetings that led folks to Graham. So you're you're led folks to Graham. So you're you're led folks to Graham. So you're you're looking in a way for someone in who's looking in a way for someone in who's looking in a way for someone in who's doing lobstering, who's an oyster farm, doing lobstering, who's an oyster farm, doing lobstering, who's an oyster farm, who's a fisherman, right? You're you're who's a fisherman, right? You're you're who's a fisherman, right? You're you're you're looking for you're almost casting you're looking for you're almost casting you're looking for you're almost casting a candidate. I think it's listening to a candidate. I think it's listening to a candidate. I think it's listening to the kind of specificities of an area and the kind of specificities of an area and the kind of specificities of an area and the specificities specificities of the the specificities specificities of the the specificities specificities of the problems facing that area and seeing problems facing that area and seeing problems facing that area and seeing like who's the voice that should be like who's the voice that should be like who's the voice that should be representing these people in Washington. representing these people in Washington. representing these people in Washington. Who should be fighting for them in Who should be fighting for them in Who should be fighting for them in Washington? Who's most in touch? I think Washington? Who's most in touch? I think Washington? Who's most in touch? I think there we have a problem of like the there we have a problem of like the there we have a problem of like the lived realities of so many of the people lived realities of so many of the people lived realities of so many of the people who run for office are so disconnected who run for office are so disconnected who run for office are so disconnected from the lived realities of the people from the lived realities of the people from the lived realities of the people they're running to represent. there is a they're running to represent. there is a they're running to represent. there is a friction there that is impossible to friction there that is impossible to friction there that is impossible to reconcile. And so how do you overcome reconcile. And so how do you overcome reconcile. And so how do you overcome that?

that? that? You need people who don't have that same You need people who don't have that same You need people who don't have that same gap. So why not somebody like Troy gap. So why not somebody like Troy gap. So why not somebody like Troy Jackson, right? Who's now going to be it Jackson, right? Who's now going to be it Jackson, right? Who's now going to be it looks to be the the nominee. And I I looks to be the the nominee. And I I looks to be the the nominee. And I I find this interesting because Jackson is find this interesting because Jackson is find this interesting because Jackson is somebody who, you know, I think fifth somebody who, you know, I think fifth somebody who, you know, I think fifth generation logger if I'm not wrong. Uh generation logger if I'm not wrong. Uh generation logger if I'm not wrong. Uh very very populist politics. very very populist politics. very very populist politics. Doesn't have platinum charisma. just a Doesn't have platinum charisma. just a Doesn't have platinum charisma. just a like I think it is fair to say that has like I think it is fair to say that has like I think it is fair to say that has been a state senate president there has been a state senate president there has been a state senate president there has this kind of mix of like the right this kind of mix of like the right this kind of mix of like the right politics but also you know an insider a politics but also you know an insider a politics but also you know an insider a person who's been in politics for a person who's been in politics for a person who's been in politics for a while was that why he was not the sort while was that why he was not the sort while was that why he was not the sort of exciting figure for you guys of exciting figure for you guys of exciting figure for you guys >> Troy was really committed to running for >> Troy was really committed to running for >> Troy was really committed to running for governor at the time I think if Troy governor at the time I think if Troy governor at the time I think if Troy Jackson was running for Senate there Jackson was running for Senate there Jackson was running for Senate there would not have been a process would not have been a process would not have been a process >> what did you see in plat when you first >> what did you see in plat when you first >> what did you see in plat when you first met him what was that conversation like met him what was that conversation like met him what was that conversation like >> I saw someone who lived on the same road >> I saw someone who lived on the same road >> I saw someone who lived on the same road he grew up on who clearly loved Maine a he grew up on who clearly loved Maine a he grew up on who clearly loved Maine a lot um and who I thought really lot um and who I thought really lot um and who I thought really articulated in a powerful way both a articulated in a powerful way both a articulated in a powerful way both a story that could capture the anger and story that could capture the anger and story that could capture the anger and angst um that so many people feel over angst um that so many people feel over angst um that so many people feel over the status quo but also had like an the status quo but also had like an the status quo but also had like an affirmative vision of what government affirmative vision of what government affirmative vision of what government could do about it. How many people did could do about it. How many people did could do about it. How many people did you and Morph and and Leanne you and Morph and and Leanne you and Morph and and Leanne collectively meet with before settling collectively meet with before settling collectively meet with before settling on Platner?

on Platner? on Platner? >> There were a number of meetings of which >> There were a number of meetings of which >> There were a number of meetings of which I was not a part of, but the kind of I was not a part of, but the kind of I was not a part of, but the kind of entire process was not limited. You entire process was not limited. You entire process was not limited. You know, it was an extended process that know, it was an extended process that know, it was an extended process that landed on Graham landed on Graham landed on Graham >> and it was a an effort to convince him, >> and it was a an effort to convince him, >> and it was a an effort to convince him, right? I I've read like there were like right? I I've read like there were like right? I I've read like there were like 30ome efforts to get off his lawn. 30ome efforts to get off his lawn. 30ome efforts to get off his lawn. >> Yes. Yeah. Um he he had been I think the >> Yes. Yeah. Um he he had been I think the >> Yes. Yeah. Um he he had been I think the state senate tried to recruit him in state senate tried to recruit him in state senate tried to recruit him in 2020. He had been I think a number of 2020. He had been I think a number of 2020. He had been I think a number of people had reached out over the years of people had reached out over the years of people had reached out over the years of you should run for office, you should you should run for office, you should you should run for office, you should run for office and he had a kind of you run for office and he had a kind of you run for office and he had a kind of you know he liked what his life was and know he liked what his life was and know he liked what his life was and articulated a skepticism of of uh it articulated a skepticism of of uh it articulated a skepticism of of uh it being possible to defeat Janet Mills and being possible to defeat Janet Mills and being possible to defeat Janet Mills and um so it was a running process. um so it was a running process. um so it was a running process. >> So I know when you did settle on him >> So I know when you did settle on him >> So I know when you did settle on him there was a vetting document created. there was a vetting document created. there was a vetting document created. What did that document find? What did that document find? What did that document find? >> The document found a a Reddit account. >> The document found a a Reddit account. >> The document found a a Reddit account. Essentially, there was uh the Essentially, there was uh the Essentially, there was uh the inclination that there were problematic inclination that there were problematic inclination that there were problematic posts on Reddit, not the full degree of posts on Reddit, not the full degree of posts on Reddit, not the full degree of what later came out, but that was the what later came out, but that was the what later came out, but that was the extent of what that document found. And extent of what that document found. And extent of what that document found. And I think like an even more robust process I think like an even more robust process I think like an even more robust process would have found more of the specific would have found more of the specific would have found more of the specific Reddit comments and potentially the Reddit comments and potentially the Reddit comments and potentially the tattoo. Um, but again, like a standard tattoo. Um, but again, like a standard tattoo. Um, but again, like a standard vetting process probably doesn't uncover vetting process probably doesn't uncover vetting process probably doesn't uncover most of the things that came after. So, most of the things that came after. So, most of the things that came after. So, one of Platiner's old Reddit posts one of Platiner's old Reddit posts one of Platiner's old Reddit posts regarding victims of sexual assault regarding victims of sexual assault regarding victims of sexual assault stated, "Holy how about people stated, "Holy how about people stated, "Holy how about people just take some responsibility for just take some responsibility for just take some responsibility for themselves and not get so up they themselves and not get so up they themselves and not get so up they wind up having sex they don't mean to?"

wind up having sex they don't mean to?" wind up having sex they don't mean to?" So, that's from 2013. What do you think So, that's from 2013. What do you think So, that's from 2013. What do you think when you hear it now? I think it should when you hear it now? I think it should when you hear it now? I think it should have been a red line. have been a red line. have been a red line. I think, you know, we I think, you know, we I think, you know, we he talked about it being like one of the he talked about it being like one of the he talked about it being like one of the things he regretted saying the most that things he regretted saying the most that things he regretted saying the most that it was indicative of a time of Finn's it was indicative of a time of Finn's it was indicative of a time of Finn's life when he was lost, when he was life when he was lost, when he was life when he was lost, when he was angry. um and that it was in no way angry. um and that it was in no way angry. um and that it was in no way reflective of who he was. And I think reflective of who he was. And I think reflective of who he was. And I think when I, you know, when I talk about the when I, you know, when I talk about the when I, you know, when I talk about the need for a different kind of standard need for a different kind of standard need for a different kind of standard for public office, I think we can both for public office, I think we can both for public office, I think we can both have a standard of which a normal person have a standard of which a normal person have a standard of which a normal person can say something deeply hurtful and can say something deeply hurtful and can say something deeply hurtful and harmful online and not be exiled from harmful online and not be exiled from harmful online and not be exiled from society in day-to-day life if they're if society in day-to-day life if they're if society in day-to-day life if they're if they've changed, if they're putting the they've changed, if they're putting the they've changed, if they're putting the work to change. But also, that doesn't work to change. But also, that doesn't work to change. But also, that doesn't mean that they're entitled to a role in mean that they're entitled to a role in mean that they're entitled to a role in elected office. elected office. elected office. So I'm a big believer in grace in So I'm a big believer in grace in So I'm a big believer in grace in politics and I think that we need to politics and I think that we need to politics and I think that we need to create a lot of space for people to create a lot of space for people to create a lot of space for people to change everybody from politicians to to change everybody from politicians to to change everybody from politicians to to voters. voters. voters. One of the things that really shifted my One of the things that really shifted my One of the things that really shifted my thinking on plat though was something thinking on plat though was something thinking on plat though was something that that you did know early on which is that that you did know early on which is that that you did know early on which is about him sexing as many as a dozen about him sexing as many as a dozen about him sexing as many as a dozen women in the early days of his marriage.

women in the early days of his marriage. women in the early days of his marriage. So there was this narrative that I So there was this narrative that I So there was this narrative that I found, you know, at least I was very found, you know, at least I was very found, you know, at least I was very open to it, which is this is a guy with open to it, which is this is a guy with open to it, which is this is a guy with a dark past, with a tough past who'd put a dark past, with a tough past who'd put a dark past, with a tough past who'd put in a lot of work and and changed and he in a lot of work and and changed and he in a lot of work and and changed and he asked to be judged on his present. asked to be judged on his present. asked to be judged on his present. So when that came out, it made me wonder So when that came out, it made me wonder So when that came out, it made me wonder about his present. And particularly what about his present. And particularly what about his present. And particularly what it made me wonder about fundamentally it made me wonder about fundamentally it made me wonder about fundamentally was his honesty. was his honesty. was his honesty. But you know, we sort of publicly didn't But you know, we sort of publicly didn't But you know, we sort of publicly didn't know that for quite some time. it was know that for quite some time. it was know that for quite some time. it was brought to the campaign early on through brought to the campaign early on through brought to the campaign early on through his wife Amy. his wife Amy. his wife Amy. What did you think when you learned What did you think when you learned What did you think when you learned about that and and why sort of combined about that and and why sort of combined about that and and why sort of combined with some of these other things, the with some of these other things, the with some of these other things, the Toten Coff, the Reddit posts, Toten Coff, the Reddit posts, Toten Coff, the Reddit posts, why did that not begin to worry you more why did that not begin to worry you more why did that not begin to worry you more about whether or not he could actually about whether or not he could actually about whether or not he could actually be trusted in what he was saying? I I be trusted in what he was saying? I I be trusted in what he was saying? I I think it both did worry me more and some think it both did worry me more and some think it both did worry me more and some of those concerns at the time were eased of those concerns at the time were eased of those concerns at the time were eased by the communication from Amy herself by the communication from Amy herself by the communication from Amy herself and from Graham of that this was and from Graham of that this was and from Graham of that this was something that they worked through something that they worked through something that they worked through extensively in their marriage that extensively in their marriage that extensively in their marriage that seemed like a kind of good faith seemed like a kind of good faith seemed like a kind of good faith engagement of two married people working engagement of two married people working engagement of two married people working through a difficult thing and working through a difficult thing and working through a difficult thing and working through it together and handling it in through it together and handling it in through it together and handling it in all the ways that you know that one all the ways that you know that one all the ways that you know that one would handle something like that once it would handle something like that once it would handle something like that once it came up. Um, and I wanted to, I think, came up. Um, and I wanted to, I think, came up. Um, and I wanted to, I think, respect both the privacy of their respect both the privacy of their respect both the privacy of their marriage and that and also even like I marriage and that and also even like I marriage and that and also even like I think there's, you know, there's a think there's, you know, there's a think there's, you know, there's a difference between consensual sexing, difference between consensual sexing, difference between consensual sexing, uh, and the allegations that ended the uh, and the allegations that ended the uh, and the allegations that ended the campaign. And I think that there was I campaign. And I think that there was I campaign. And I think that there was I was trying to kind of hold room for all

was trying to kind of hold room for all was trying to kind of hold room for all of those different things at once. And I of those different things at once. And I of those different things at once. And I think it does kind of I think the think it does kind of I think the think it does kind of I think the challenge of all of this was like as challenge of all of this was like as challenge of all of this was like as someone who does deeply believe in in someone who does deeply believe in in someone who does deeply believe in in grace and in nuance and the fact that grace and in nuance and the fact that grace and in nuance and the fact that people are complicated and life is people are complicated and life is people are complicated and life is complicated and maybe politics should complicated and maybe politics should complicated and maybe politics should reflect a little bit more of that. There reflect a little bit more of that. There reflect a little bit more of that. There was a constant weighing of like how much was a constant weighing of like how much was a constant weighing of like how much is too much is too much is too much >> and you know what's what is the red line >> and you know what's what is the red line >> and you know what's what is the red line and I think obviously I did not see it and I think obviously I did not see it and I think obviously I did not see it soon enough. soon enough. soon enough. >> Other people who were involved did see a >> Other people who were involved did see a >> Other people who were involved did see a red line sooner. So Jenny V. McDonald red line sooner. So Jenny V. McDonald red line sooner. So Jenny V. McDonald was campaign's political director. She was campaign's political director. She was campaign's political director. She resigned back in October 2025 resigned back in October 2025 resigned back in October 2025 around a lot of she she knew about the around a lot of she she knew about the around a lot of she she knew about the sexing. She knew about the Red Posts, sexing. She knew about the Red Posts, sexing. She knew about the Red Posts, the toten cop tattoo. And so it's been the toten cop tattoo. And so it's been the toten cop tattoo. And so it's been reported that when you heard she was reported that when you heard she was reported that when you heard she was speaking to the Wall Street Journal speaking to the Wall Street Journal speaking to the Wall Street Journal about Platner's cheating, you demanded about Platner's cheating, you demanded about Platner's cheating, you demanded you retract her comments that she send you retract her comments that she send you retract her comments that she send you a recording of her talking to the you a recording of her talking to the you a recording of her talking to the reporters retracting her comments and if reporters retracting her comments and if reporters retracting her comments and if not sort of you would uh like attack her not sort of you would uh like attack her not sort of you would uh like attack her for sabotaging the campaign.

for sabotaging the campaign. for sabotaging the campaign. Do you owe her an apology? Have you Do you owe her an apology? Have you Do you owe her an apology? Have you apologized to her? apologized to her? apologized to her? >> So there are parts of that description >> So there are parts of that description >> So there are parts of that description that I would uh that I would uh that I would uh take some issue with. I think the thing take some issue with. I think the thing take some issue with. I think the thing on that specific issue that I was on that specific issue that I was on that specific issue that I was articulating was I believe that it was a articulating was I believe that it was a articulating was I believe that it was a violation of Amy's privacy and of you violation of Amy's privacy and of you violation of Amy's privacy and of you know part of the for all the know part of the for all the know part of the for all the conversation about vetting part of what conversation about vetting part of what conversation about vetting part of what the vetting process requires is a lot of the vetting process requires is a lot of the vetting process requires is a lot of honesty and transparency from candidates honesty and transparency from candidates honesty and transparency from candidates and when as a team you go to them and and when as a team you go to them and and when as a team you go to them and say hey we need you to tell us say hey we need you to tell us say hey we need you to tell us everything part of what didn't work in everything part of what didn't work in everything part of what didn't work in this instance is when there was not full this instance is when there was not full this instance is when there was not full transparency and in that specific transparency and in that specific transparency and in that specific instance you instance you instance you Amy came to her and was fully honest. Amy came to her and was fully honest. Amy came to her and was fully honest. And to see Amy's trust violated like And to see Amy's trust violated like And to see Amy's trust violated like that. Um, and to see that kind of that. Um, and to see that kind of that. Um, and to see that kind of practice that allows campaigns to practice that allows campaigns to practice that allows campaigns to operate and us to get to a place of operate and us to get to a place of operate and us to get to a place of honesty violated like that was I think honesty violated like that was I think honesty violated like that was I think frustrating. frustrating. frustrating. >> I think I can understand that. And on >> I think I can understand that. And on >> I think I can understand that. And on the other hand, I think one of the the other hand, I think one of the the other hand, I think one of the questions is what is the responsibility questions is what is the responsibility questions is what is the responsibility of a campaign to the public, right? the of a campaign to the public, right? the of a campaign to the public, right? the people around a candidate who maybe know people around a candidate who maybe know people around a candidate who maybe know more than the public knows more than the public knows more than the public knows or frankly to the party or to the larger or frankly to the party or to the larger or frankly to the party or to the larger project of the politics. I mean what project of the politics. I mean what project of the politics. I mean what seems to me to have happened I mean seems to me to have happened I mean seems to me to have happened I mean there are a number of people who there are a number of people who there are a number of people who resigned from the campaign over time. I resigned from the campaign over time. I resigned from the campaign over time. I sort of had this impression on the sort of had this impression on the sort of had this impression on the outside. No one thing until the final outside. No one thing until the final outside. No one thing until the final revelation revelation revelation was to me disqualifying for platiner.

was to me disqualifying for platiner. was to me disqualifying for platiner. But, you know, I said this on a podcast But, you know, I said this on a podcast But, you know, I said this on a podcast a bit ago. It seemed like a lot of a bit ago. It seemed like a lot of a bit ago. It seemed like a lot of smoke, like a lot of decisions that smoke, like a lot of decisions that smoke, like a lot of decisions that didn't look right. And you just wondered didn't look right. And you just wondered didn't look right. And you just wondered like what is there that you don't know? like what is there that you don't know? like what is there that you don't know? And also, is this a person who should be And also, is this a person who should be And also, is this a person who should be in the Senate? And so I think I can both in the Senate? And so I think I can both in the Senate? And so I think I can both really understand the frustration you really understand the frustration you really understand the frustration you must have had at people sort of must have had at people sort of must have had at people sort of revealing things that were in the revealing things that were in the revealing things that were in the campaign or confirming things and have campaign or confirming things and have campaign or confirming things and have been coming out in internal vetting. been coming out in internal vetting. been coming out in internal vetting. And on the other hand, there is this And on the other hand, there is this And on the other hand, there is this complicated question of what happens complicated question of what happens complicated question of what happens when the campaign consultants know when the campaign consultants know when the campaign consultants know things that maybe the public should things that maybe the public should things that maybe the public should know. know. know. >> I think and just to like be clear on one >> I think and just to like be clear on one >> I think and just to like be clear on one of the points, you know, we did not know of the points, you know, we did not know of the points, you know, we did not know there there was there's been like there there was there's been like there there was there's been like speculation of what we knew. Mhm. speculation of what we knew. Mhm. speculation of what we knew. Mhm. >> around some of the more serious later >> around some of the more serious later >> around some of the more serious later allegations and when and we did not know allegations and when and we did not know allegations and when and we did not know until the day or two prior to that story until the day or two prior to that story until the day or two prior to that story coming out that there was a credible and coming out that there was a credible and coming out that there was a credible and serious allegation of rape. And so the serious allegation of rape. And so the serious allegation of rape. And so the kind of area we were in of the things we kind of area we were in of the things we kind of area we were in of the things we knew were sexing, Reddit, Tattoo Land.

knew were sexing, Reddit, Tattoo Land. knew were sexing, Reddit, Tattoo Land. And I think to your point, none of those And I think to your point, none of those And I think to your point, none of those things alone in a vacuum was necessarily things alone in a vacuum was necessarily things alone in a vacuum was necessarily disqualifying. And also there was so disqualifying. And also there was so disqualifying. And also there was so much momentum and energy from the voters much momentum and energy from the voters much momentum and energy from the voters in Maine who you know Graham was in Maine who you know Graham was in Maine who you know Graham was traveling across the state. The campaign traveling across the state. The campaign traveling across the state. The campaign was building a movement of thousands and was building a movement of thousands and was building a movement of thousands and thousands of volunteers bringing people thousands of volunteers bringing people thousands of volunteers bringing people off the sidelines. off the sidelines. off the sidelines. And I think that friction of like of And I think that friction of like of And I think that friction of like of really wanting to believe and I say to really wanting to believe and I say to really wanting to believe and I say to my candidates a lot like I think a lot my candidates a lot like I think a lot my candidates a lot like I think a lot of candidates greatest strengths are of candidates greatest strengths are of candidates greatest strengths are their greatest weaknesses. um you know, their greatest weaknesses. um you know, their greatest weaknesses. um you know, you're an outsider but you're you're an outsider but you're you're an outsider but you're inexperienced or you're experienced but inexperienced or you're experienced but inexperienced or you're experienced but you're part of the establishment. Um you you're part of the establishment. Um you you're part of the establishment. Um you know, you're a policy wonk but then know, you're a policy wonk but then know, you're a policy wonk but then you're overly in the weeds or and I you're overly in the weeds or and I you're overly in the weeds or and I think one of my I think it's true for think one of my I think it's true for think one of my I think it's true for people in general. I think one of it is people in general. I think one of it is people in general. I think one of it is like I take the work that I do I think like I take the work that I do I think like I take the work that I do I think very personally and am maybe very personally and am maybe very personally and am maybe naive at times in the sense of wanting a naive at times in the sense of wanting a naive at times in the sense of wanting a different kind of politics to be different kind of politics to be different kind of politics to be possible and feeling that friction of possible and feeling that friction of possible and feeling that friction of sensing yes this is a lot of smoke and sensing yes this is a lot of smoke and sensing yes this is a lot of smoke and kind of being almost disoriented by that kind of being almost disoriented by that kind of being almost disoriented by that but then also the euphoria of seeing a but then also the euphoria of seeing a but then also the euphoria of seeing a politics of what could be possible of politics of what could be possible of politics of what could be possible of town halls of hundreds and hundreds of town halls of hundreds and hundreds of town halls of hundreds and hundreds of people in areas Trump won talking about people in areas Trump won talking about people in areas Trump won talking about the New Deal and a different kind of the New Deal and a different kind of the New Deal and a different kind of populist politics and taking on populist politics and taking on populist politics and taking on corruption and Republicans saying that corruption and Republicans saying that corruption and Republicans saying that they'd have enough and independents they'd have enough and independents they'd have enough and independents saying they hadn't voted for cycles but saying they hadn't voted for cycles but saying they hadn't voted for cycles but this campaign was bringing them up and this campaign was bringing them up and this campaign was bringing them up and the friction of all of those things um I

the friction of all of those things um I the friction of all of those things um I think was was a lot and if I was doing think was was a lot and if I was doing think was was a lot and if I was doing it over again I would do a lot of it it over again I would do a lot of it it over again I would do a lot of it differently. Um but that was kind of differently. Um but that was kind of differently. Um but that was kind of what was happening. what was happening. what was happening. One of the things that McDonald has said One of the things that McDonald has said One of the things that McDonald has said is that she did come to you and she is that she did come to you and she is that she did come to you and she started trying to vet platinum more started trying to vet platinum more started trying to vet platinum more herself. um we we reached out to her we herself. um we we reached out to her we herself. um we we reached out to her we weren't able to talk to her but that weren't able to talk to her but that weren't able to talk to her but that fight consultancy you all were not fight consultancy you all were not fight consultancy you all were not interested in going further down the interested in going further down the interested in going further down the vetting pathway and she's expressed a vetting pathway and she's expressed a vetting pathway and she's expressed a lot of anger about that and I mean the lot of anger about that and I mean the lot of anger about that and I mean the finance director resigned like there finance director resigned like there finance director resigned like there were people who felt something was going were people who felt something was going were people who felt something was going wrong and I wonder just in the sense of wrong and I wonder just in the sense of wrong and I wonder just in the sense of what you are trying to learn from this what you are trying to learn from this what you are trying to learn from this if you look back on those conversations if you look back on those conversations if you look back on those conversations if you look back on people sensing that if you look back on people sensing that if you look back on people sensing that something was up here something was up here something was up here what were these other members of the what were these other members of the what were these other members of the campaign beginning to that eventually campaign beginning to that eventually campaign beginning to that eventually proved out true even if they didn't know proved out true even if they didn't know proved out true even if they didn't know exactly what would prove out true exactly what would prove out true exactly what would prove out true eventually that sort of you and Fight eventually that sort of you and Fight eventually that sort of you and Fight didn't. didn't. didn't. >> Well, so I think like you know Fight's >> Well, so I think like you know Fight's >> Well, so I think like you know Fight's not a vetting agency like that's not a not a vetting agency like that's not a not a vetting agency like that's not a service we offer. Um we work with service we offer. Um we work with service we offer. Um we work with campaigns and campaigns work with campaigns and campaigns work with campaigns and campaigns work with vetting professionals. I think there's a vetting professionals. I think there's a vetting professionals. I think there's a fair critique of you know fight putting fair critique of you know fight putting fair critique of you know fight putting more pressure me putting more pressure more pressure me putting more pressure more pressure me putting more pressure on people to ensure that their vetting on people to ensure that their vetting on people to ensure that their vetting process taking place is responsible and process taking place is responsible and process taking place is responsible and robust and I don't recall that robust and I don't recall that robust and I don't recall that conversation that Genevieve is conversation that Genevieve is conversation that Genevieve is outlining. I think I think there was a outlining. I think I think there was a outlining. I think I think there was a mix of different kind of personal mix of different kind of personal mix of different kind of personal dynamics in some of those decisions but dynamics in some of those decisions but dynamics in some of those decisions but I also think you know they were they I also think you know they were they I also think you know they were they were right to feel that something was a were right to feel that something was a were right to feel that something was a miss earlier.

miss earlier. miss earlier. One of Platner's accusers was Lindseay One of Platner's accusers was Lindseay One of Platner's accusers was Lindseay Fifield who had been in partnership with Fifield who had been in partnership with Fifield who had been in partnership with him and accused him, it came out in the him and accused him, it came out in the him and accused him, it came out in the Times story, of being physically abusive Times story, of being physically abusive Times story, of being physically abusive when they were together. She's worked in when they were together. She's worked in when they were together. She's worked in conservative politics. And so there was conservative politics. And so there was conservative politics. And so there was a a real rush to say that this was just a a real rush to say that this was just a a real rush to say that this was just politically motivated. She was just a politically motivated. She was just a politically motivated. She was just a Republican trying to destroy his Republican trying to destroy his Republican trying to destroy his campaign. [gasps] campaign. [gasps] campaign. [gasps] Her story really bothered me for for two Her story really bothered me for for two Her story really bothered me for for two reasons. one obviously the the abuse, reasons. one obviously the the abuse, reasons. one obviously the the abuse, but the other was a contemporaneous um but the other was a contemporaneous um but the other was a contemporaneous um her telling other people like, "Look, her telling other people like, "Look, her telling other people like, "Look, this guy told me his tattoo was a toteen this guy told me his tattoo was a toteen this guy told me his tattoo was a toteen cop." I had always been pretty skeptical cop." I had always been pretty skeptical cop." I had always been pretty skeptical of the tattoo story. I didn't think of the tattoo story. I didn't think of the tattoo story. I didn't think Platinum was in any way an anti-semite Platinum was in any way an anti-semite Platinum was in any way an anti-semite or a Nazi, but I wasn't really sure he or a Nazi, but I wasn't really sure he or a Nazi, but I wasn't really sure he didn't know what his tattoo was. Do you didn't know what his tattoo was. Do you didn't know what his tattoo was. Do you see her story differently now and wish see her story differently now and wish see her story differently now and wish you' reacted to that story differently? you' reacted to that story differently? you' reacted to that story differently? Yes, I think uh knowing what we know Yes, I think uh knowing what we know Yes, I think uh knowing what we know now, there should have been more now, there should have been more now, there should have been more credibility given immediately to that credibility given immediately to that credibility given immediately to that story when it came forward. story when it came forward. story when it came forward. So, this I think begins to get to the So, this I think begins to get to the So, this I think begins to get to the broader topic because a lot went wrong broader topic because a lot went wrong broader topic because a lot went wrong here. Also, some things went really here. Also, some things went really here. Also, some things went really right. I mean, until the last moment, right. I mean, until the last moment, right. I mean, until the last moment, Platner was had, you know, wrecked the Platner was had, you know, wrecked the Platner was had, you know, wrecked the sitting governor of Maine in the sitting governor of Maine in the sitting governor of Maine in the primary.

primary. primary. You know, throughout the campaign, you You know, throughout the campaign, you You know, throughout the campaign, you and many of your allies were arguing the and many of your allies were arguing the and many of your allies were arguing the Democratic Party sort of only wants to Democratic Party sort of only wants to Democratic Party sort of only wants to run uh your word was losers. run uh your word was losers. run uh your word was losers. Um who have wanted to be president since Um who have wanted to be president since Um who have wanted to be president since they were in fifth grade and that what they were in fifth grade and that what they were in fifth grade and that what the party needs is like normal real the party needs is like normal real the party needs is like normal real people and real people have checkered people and real people have checkered people and real people have checkered pasts and that that just needs to be pasts and that that just needs to be pasts and that that just needs to be accepted to have a more authentic accepted to have a more authentic accepted to have a more authentic politics. politics. politics. Platinum is such an unusual case because Platinum is such an unusual case because Platinum is such an unusual case because the strategy both worked and failed at the strategy both worked and failed at the strategy both worked and failed at the same time. the same time. the same time. So how now do you see that same theory? So how now do you see that same theory? So how now do you see that same theory? I think real people have checkered past I think real people have checkered past I think real people have checkered past and also there are and also there are and also there are many many many real people who do not many many many real people who do not many many many real people who do not have that kind of checkered past. have that kind of checkered past. have that kind of checkered past. >> It often seem [clears throat] to be a >> It often seem [clears throat] to be a >> It often seem [clears throat] to be a little insulting to like what gets little insulting to like what gets little insulting to like what gets called real people. called real people. called real people. >> Exactly. I think it's a it's a Yes. like >> Exactly. I think it's a it's a Yes. like >> Exactly. I think it's a it's a Yes. like and I think the online stuff is fair of and I think the online stuff is fair of and I think the online stuff is fair of like a lot of people have posted online like a lot of people have posted online like a lot of people have posted online so I think the content of those goes so I think the content of those goes so I think the content of those goes probably a step beyond what most people probably a step beyond what most people probably a step beyond what most people have said um and I think there can there have said um and I think there can there have said um and I think there can there can both be room for some level of can both be room for some level of can both be room for some level of nuanced conversations about people who nuanced conversations about people who nuanced conversations about people who live lives not tailor made for politics live lives not tailor made for politics live lives not tailor made for politics and also more strict standards on it but and also more strict standards on it but and also more strict standards on it but like like even after the two days after like like even after the two days after like like even after the two days after the political story came out um there the political story came out um there the political story came out um there was a poll that had Graham down to Susan was a poll that had Graham down to Susan was a poll that had Graham down to Susan Collins, but had Janet Mills running Collins, but had Janet Mills running Collins, but had Janet Mills running five points behind Graham Platner even five points behind Graham Platner even five points behind Graham Platner even after the story, the day he suspended

after the story, the day he suspended after the story, the day he suspended his campaign. his campaign. his campaign. We have a Republican majority in the We have a Republican majority in the We have a Republican majority in the House. We have a Republican majority in House. We have a Republican majority in House. We have a Republican majority in the Senate. We have a Republican in the the Senate. We have a Republican in the the Senate. We have a Republican in the White House. And we have no functional White House. And we have no functional White House. And we have no functional path to a clear governing Democratic path to a clear governing Democratic path to a clear governing Democratic majority. And I think if there were majority. And I think if there were majority. And I think if there were mistakes made here and they need to not mistakes made here and they need to not mistakes made here and they need to not be made again, be made again, be made again, but to go entirely in the other but to go entirely in the other but to go entirely in the other direction and decide, okay, well, we're direction and decide, okay, well, we're direction and decide, okay, well, we're not going to we're going to totally not going to we're going to totally not going to we're going to totally write off trying a different approach. write off trying a different approach. write off trying a different approach. We're going to totally write off We're going to totally write off We're going to totally write off bringing outsiders in to run for office bringing outsiders in to run for office bringing outsiders in to run for office at a moment in which the party at a moment in which the party at a moment in which the party establishment, any kind of establishment, any kind of establishment, any kind of establishment, institutions of power establishment, institutions of power establishment, institutions of power deeply unpopular. Does not feel like a deeply unpopular. Does not feel like a deeply unpopular. Does not feel like a good faith effort to me to get to the good faith effort to me to get to the good faith effort to me to get to the place we need to get to. And if we're place we need to get to. And if we're place we need to get to. And if we're all serious about [snorts] a powerful all serious about [snorts] a powerful all serious about [snorts] a powerful governing majority, then that is going governing majority, then that is going governing majority, then that is going to require a different approach. It's to require a different approach. It's to require a different approach. It's going to have to tap into the level of going to have to tap into the level of going to have to tap into the level of anger and angst that people are feeling anger and angst that people are feeling anger and angst that people are feeling and also this deep deep desire for hope and also this deep deep desire for hope and also this deep deep desire for hope that I think this campaign tapped into. that I think this campaign tapped into. that I think this campaign tapped into. What is an outsider to you? My What is an outsider to you? My What is an outsider to you? My understanding of this sort of list of understanding of this sort of list of understanding of this sort of list of campaigns you've been centrally involved campaigns you've been centrally involved campaigns you've been centrally involved in in the past couple years is John in in the past couple years is John in in the past couple years is John Federman um where you were uh I think Federman um where you were uh I think Federman um where you were uh I think pretty centrally responsible for the ad pretty centrally responsible for the ad pretty centrally responsible for the ad strategy and after his stroke he was strategy and after his stroke he was strategy and after his stroke he was really reliant on that strategy. Is Dan really reliant on that strategy. Is Dan really reliant on that strategy. Is Dan Osborne the independent who um ran Osborne the independent who um ran Osborne the independent who um ran before and is running again in Nebraska before and is running again in Nebraska before and is running again in Nebraska and wildly overperformed Democrats in and wildly overperformed Democrats in and wildly overperformed Democrats in that state. Sort of a union guy. Um is that state. Sort of a union guy. Um is that state. Sort of a union guy. Um is of course Zoran Mdani who people have of course Zoran Mdani who people have of course Zoran Mdani who people have now heard of and needs no introduction.

now heard of and needs no introduction. now heard of and needs no introduction. is Grant Platner is Nathan Sage who was is Grant Platner is Nathan Sage who was is Grant Platner is Nathan Sage who was running in Iowa uh for Senate. Some of running in Iowa uh for Senate. Some of running in Iowa uh for Senate. Some of these candidates are what you might call these candidates are what you might call these candidates are what you might call an outsider, right? Platner did not have an outsider, right? Platner did not have an outsider, right? Platner did not have political experience. Nathan Sage, I political experience. Nathan Sage, I political experience. Nathan Sage, I think, you know, did not have a lot of think, you know, did not have a lot of think, you know, did not have a lot of political experience. political experience. political experience. Federman was a lieutenant governor of Federman was a lieutenant governor of Federman was a lieutenant governor of his state. You know, Osborne was a his state. You know, Osborne was a his state. You know, Osborne was a little bit better known as a sort of little bit better known as a sort of little bit better known as a sort of major union leader. When you talk about major union leader. When you talk about major union leader. When you talk about this strategy, right, what is an this strategy, right, what is an this strategy, right, what is an outsider? I think inherent in part of outsider? I think inherent in part of outsider? I think inherent in part of the problem is that the people who are the problem is that the people who are the problem is that the people who are insiders right now in positions of power insiders right now in positions of power insiders right now in positions of power are incredibly narrow definition. You are incredibly narrow definition. You are incredibly narrow definition. You know, it's an incredibly small group of know, it's an incredibly small group of know, it's an incredibly small group of people who have power and influence and people who have power and influence and people who have power and influence and resources in our politics in our country resources in our politics in our country resources in our politics in our country right now and anyone who's outside of right now and anyone who's outside of right now and anyone who's outside of that orbit I think is an outsider. And I that orbit I think is an outsider. And I that orbit I think is an outsider. And I think it's similar to like you get you think it's similar to like you get you think it's similar to like you get you know the discourse around class right know the discourse around class right know the discourse around class right now. It's like majority of people are now. It's like majority of people are now. It's like majority of people are working and do not feel like they have working and do not feel like they have working and do not feel like they have enough to live the lives that they enough to live the lives that they enough to live the lives that they should be able to. And there is such a should be able to. And there is such a should be able to. And there is such a profound profound profound exclusion of the American people from exclusion of the American people from exclusion of the American people from access to resources, from access to access to resources, from access to access to resources, from access to power, from access to the lives they power, from access to the lives they power, from access to the lives they want to be able to live. And the people want to be able to live. And the people want to be able to live. And the people who are in that category, I think need who are in that category, I think need who are in that category, I think need to be running for office. And that to be running for office. And that to be running for office. And that should look different in a lot of should look different in a lot of should look different in a lot of places. That has a lot of different places. That has a lot of different places. That has a lot of different faces, a lot of different backgrounds.

faces, a lot of different backgrounds. faces, a lot of different backgrounds. But that I think is the is the goal that But that I think is the is the goal that But that I think is the is the goal that we should be coming to. we should be coming to. we should be coming to. >> The thing that I really notice about >> The thing that I really notice about >> The thing that I really notice about that list of candidates is that's not that list of candidates is that's not that list of candidates is that's not far from a list of candidates who have far from a list of candidates who have far from a list of candidates who have gotten the most attention in their gotten the most attention in their gotten the most attention in their cycles. The thing that even your critics cycles. The thing that even your critics cycles. The thing that even your critics who I talk to say about you is that you who I talk to say about you is that you who I talk to say about you is that you as an admaker, as a storyteller, as as an admaker, as a storyteller, as as an admaker, as a storyteller, as somebody sort of both helping to recruit somebody sort of both helping to recruit somebody sort of both helping to recruit candidates or choosing candidates to candidates or choosing candidates to candidates or choosing candidates to work with work with work with have figured out a way to break through have figured out a way to break through have figured out a way to break through intentionally intentionally intentionally at a time when it's very very very hard at a time when it's very very very hard at a time when it's very very very hard to do so. So there are a lot of people to do so. So there are a lot of people to do so. So there are a lot of people who are outsiders, who are outsiders, who are outsiders, but not everybody who is an outsider is but not everybody who is an outsider is but not everybody who is an outsider is going to be a good candidate. Um, not going to be a good candidate. Um, not going to be a good candidate. Um, not everybody who is an outsider is going to everybody who is an outsider is going to everybody who is an outsider is going to be somebody who goes viral on social or be somebody who goes viral on social or be somebody who goes viral on social or algorithmic media. One of the things algorithmic media. One of the things algorithmic media. One of the things when I was asking about where you found when I was asking about where you found when I was asking about where you found Platiner that I I feel from the stories Platiner that I I feel from the stories Platiner that I I feel from the stories I know that you sort of underplayed is I know that you sort of underplayed is I know that you sort of underplayed is the casting dimension of him, like the casting dimension of him, like the casting dimension of him, like actually looking for a charismatic actually looking for a charismatic actually looking for a charismatic candidate with a kind of bio. Now, like candidate with a kind of bio. Now, like candidate with a kind of bio. Now, like you didn't invent looking for bios. Um, you didn't invent looking for bios. Um, you didn't invent looking for bios. Um, the DC has been doing that forever. The the DC has been doing that forever. The the DC has been doing that forever. The Republicans have been doing that Republicans have been doing that Republicans have been doing that forever.

forever. forever. It does feel to me you look for people It does feel to me you look for people It does feel to me you look for people who feel like their bios, which is a who feel like their bios, which is a who feel like their bios, which is a little bit different. Um, I've watched a little bit different. Um, I've watched a little bit different. Um, I've watched a lot of veterans run in politics and they lot of veterans run in politics and they lot of veterans run in politics and they just feel like normal candidates. John just feel like normal candidates. John just feel like normal candidates. John Fetterman, you know, sort of an insider, Fetterman, you know, sort of an insider, Fetterman, you know, sort of an insider, I would say, a lieutenant governor, like I would say, a lieutenant governor, like I would say, a lieutenant governor, like a known political quantity, but a known political quantity, but a known political quantity, but certainly in that campaign, you know, certainly in that campaign, you know, certainly in that campaign, you know, with his, you know, shorts and his with his, you know, shorts and his with his, you know, shorts and his tattoos, like there was a a an aesthetic tattoos, like there was a a an aesthetic tattoos, like there was a a an aesthetic to him that felt different from other to him that felt different from other to him that felt different from other candidates. candidates. candidates. So, when you're finding these people, So, when you're finding these people, So, when you're finding these people, when you're looking for them, when when you're looking for them, when when you're looking for them, when you're framing their stories with them, you're framing their stories with them, you're framing their stories with them, what is it beyond that sort of simple what is it beyond that sort of simple what is it beyond that sort of simple outsider insider thing are you looking outsider insider thing are you looking outsider insider thing are you looking for? What do you feel like breaks for? What do you feel like breaks for? What do you feel like breaks through and what doesn't? through and what doesn't? through and what doesn't? >> You know, there's a misconception >> You know, there's a misconception >> You know, there's a misconception sometimes in politics that to win an sometimes in politics that to win an sometimes in politics that to win an election, you're sitting down in a job election, you're sitting down in a job election, you're sitting down in a job interview. And I think right now where interview. And I think right now where interview. And I think right now where voters are, they believe that every voters are, they believe that every voters are, they believe that every single thing you're saying at a job single thing you're saying at a job single thing you're saying at a job interview is a lie. Like they're just interview is a lie. Like they're just interview is a lie. Like they're just not going to believe it. They be, oh, not going to believe it. They be, oh, not going to believe it. They be, oh, because you got some bill through the because you got some bill through the because you got some bill through the state legislator. Well, you're never state legislator. Well, you're never state legislator. Well, you're never going to get it done in Washington. Oh, going to get it done in Washington. Oh, going to get it done in Washington. Oh, you say you're gonna lower prescription you say you're gonna lower prescription you say you're gonna lower prescription drug costs. How come nothing's happened?

drug costs. How come nothing's happened? drug costs. How come nothing's happened? you know, maybe you'll get it done in 15 you know, maybe you'll get it done in 15 you know, maybe you'll get it done in 15 years. And we're actually not engaging years. And we're actually not engaging years. And we're actually not engaging the job interview. We're engaging in the job interview. We're engaging in the job interview. We're engaging in something of a dating process with something of a dating process with something of a dating process with people who've been on, you know, a people who've been on, you know, a people who've been on, you know, a hundred bad dates in a row and are hundred bad dates in a row and are hundred bad dates in a row and are holding out a little bit of hope that holding out a little bit of hope that holding out a little bit of hope that maybe tonight's going to be different. maybe tonight's going to be different. maybe tonight's going to be different. And how can you make people who've been And how can you make people who've been And how can you make people who've been given every reason to give up on love given every reason to give up on love given every reason to give up on love fall in love again? And I think that fall in love again? And I think that fall in love again? And I think that that's much much like love. There's that's much much like love. There's that's much much like love. There's something not random, but there's something not random, but there's something not random, but there's something magnetic to it. And to shake something magnetic to it. And to shake something magnetic to it. And to shake that loose, that loose, that loose, I think you need a candidate and a I think you need a candidate and a I think you need a candidate and a campaign that is telling a story that campaign that is telling a story that campaign that is telling a story that can bring people who have every reason can bring people who have every reason can bring people who have every reason to be out back in. Um, John Federman was to be out back in. Um, John Federman was to be out back in. Um, John Federman was it was a story about Bradock as much as it was a story about Bradock as much as it was a story about Bradock as much as it was a story about him. A forgotten it was a story about him. A forgotten it was a story about him. A forgotten steel town that believed its best days steel town that believed its best days steel town that believed its best days were generations ago that still deserves were generations ago that still deserves were generations ago that still deserves to be fought for that doesn't deserve to to be fought for that doesn't deserve to to be fought for that doesn't deserve to be left behind. A bio isn't just bullet be left behind. A bio isn't just bullet be left behind. A bio isn't just bullet points but a story to tell. And I think points but a story to tell. And I think points but a story to tell. And I think people talk about hope as kind of a people talk about hope as kind of a people talk about hope as kind of a political tool or like an abstract political tool or like an abstract political tool or like an abstract thing, not a tangible thing in of thing, not a tangible thing in of thing, not a tangible thing in of itself. And I believe that there's a itself. And I believe that there's a itself. And I believe that there's a power in hope even just as a thing that power in hope even just as a thing that power in hope even just as a thing that people are feeling like everyone's people are feeling like everyone's people are feeling like everyone's having such a hard time. I also think having such a hard time. I also think having such a hard time. I also think there's there is an X factor in our there's there is an X factor in our there's there is an X factor in our politics, right? Like you know, you politics, right? Like you know, you politics, right? Like you know, you could run someone could run for could run someone could run for could run someone could run for president any if have the exact same president any if have the exact same president any if have the exact same policy positions as Barack Obama, but policy positions as Barack Obama, but policy positions as Barack Obama, but Barack Obama had an X factor that made Barack Obama had an X factor that made Barack Obama had an X factor that made him unique. So did Bill Clinton, so does him unique. So did Bill Clinton, so does him unique. So did Bill Clinton, so does Donald Trump, so did George Bush. The Donald Trump, so did George Bush. The Donald Trump, so did George Bush. The people who kind of rise to the highest people who kind of rise to the highest people who kind of rise to the highest ranks of political power in this country

ranks of political power in this country ranks of political power in this country do have an X factor and we can't ignore do have an X factor and we can't ignore do have an X factor and we can't ignore that. And I think you uniquely can't that. And I think you uniquely can't that. And I think you uniquely can't ignore that in the modern media ignore that in the modern media ignore that in the modern media environment where you can't just run a environment where you can't just run a environment where you can't just run a campaign on 30 secondond television ads. campaign on 30 secondond television ads. campaign on 30 secondond television ads. So this is what I I want to zone in on So this is what I I want to zone in on So this is what I I want to zone in on because I think fight as a consultancy, because I think fight as a consultancy, because I think fight as a consultancy, you as a consultant are good at finding you as a consultant are good at finding you as a consultant are good at finding people the X factor. And one place where people the X factor. And one place where people the X factor. And one place where I think Democrats have the strategy of I think Democrats have the strategy of I think Democrats have the strategy of the broad coalition of the Democratic the broad coalition of the Democratic the broad coalition of the Democratic party has fallen apart is party has fallen apart is party has fallen apart is I think they were looking for the I think they were looking for the I think they were looking for the ability to raise money not the X factor. ability to raise money not the X factor. ability to raise money not the X factor. >> I mean I think there's a deep lack of >> I mean I think there's a deep lack of >> I mean I think there's a deep lack of updating in the strategy, right? Like updating in the strategy, right? Like updating in the strategy, right? Like the traditional to kind of break down the traditional to kind of break down the traditional to kind of break down the way that this traditionally works is the way that this traditionally works is the way that this traditionally works is there's a district or a state where there's a district or a state where there's a district or a state where there's a competitive election and the there's a competitive election and the there's a competitive election and the institutional approach to recruitment institutional approach to recruitment institutional approach to recruitment there is who can raise the most money in there is who can raise the most money in there is who can raise the most money in the first 48 hours and that is literally the first 48 hours and that is literally the first 48 hours and that is literally the driving determining factor in who the driving determining factor in who the driving determining factor in who the Democratic establishment wants to the Democratic establishment wants to the Democratic establishment wants to recruit. inherent in that when when recruit. inherent in that when when recruit. inherent in that when when you're the question you're asking is who you're the question you're asking is who you're the question you're asking is who knows the most wealthy people that is knows the most wealthy people that is knows the most wealthy people that is probably someone illquipped to make a probably someone illquipped to make a probably someone illquipped to make a credible case as an outsider running credible case as an outsider running credible case as an outsider running against a rigged economy and I think against a rigged economy and I think against a rigged economy and I think it's the job of the consulting class one it's the job of the consulting class one it's the job of the consulting class one of the reasons I do what I do now one of of the reasons I do what I do now one of of the reasons I do what I do now one of my first jobs was in North Carolina um my first jobs was in North Carolina um my first jobs was in North Carolina um working for a candidate there Erica working for a candidate there Erica working for a candidate there Erica Smith who had an incredible story to Smith who had an incredible story to Smith who had an incredible story to tell you she she also had some like tell you she she also had some like tell you she she also had some like issues of her own but had a really issues of her own but had a really issues of her own but had a really power, you know, a pastor was from a

power, you know, a pastor was from a power, you know, a pastor was from a rural part of the state that was rapidly rural part of the state that was rapidly rural part of the state that was rapidly falling behind and had been kind of left falling behind and had been kind of left falling behind and had been kind of left behind by the political establishment behind by the political establishment behind by the political establishment where Democrats were collapsing. She had where Democrats were collapsing. She had where Democrats were collapsing. She had a decent electoral record even as a a decent electoral record even as a a decent electoral record even as a state senator. She grew up on the same state senator. She grew up on the same state senator. She grew up on the same family farm that her family was enslaved family farm that her family was enslaved family farm that her family was enslaved on. Like a really profound story about on. Like a really profound story about on. Like a really profound story about North Carolina and overcoming hardship North Carolina and overcoming hardship North Carolina and overcoming hardship and a vision. And we did a 100 county and a vision. And we did a 100 county and a vision. And we did a 100 county tour in 100 days across all of North tour in 100 days across all of North tour in 100 days across all of North Carolina. Carolina. Carolina. In that campaign, in that tour, I saw In that campaign, in that tour, I saw In that campaign, in that tour, I saw kind of two things. One was the kind of two things. One was the kind of two things. One was the political establishment did not exist in political establishment did not exist in political establishment did not exist in a way to see there's a candidate here a way to see there's a candidate here a way to see there's a candidate here with a really compelling story and some with a really compelling story and some with a really compelling story and some really good talent. How do we build how really good talent. How do we build how really good talent. How do we build how do we wrap around her and protect her do we wrap around her and protect her do we wrap around her and protect her and lift her up and fill in the blind and lift her up and fill in the blind and lift her up and fill in the blind spots here and support it? It was she spots here and support it? It was she spots here and support it? It was she can't raise the money. It's unserious or can't raise the money. It's unserious or can't raise the money. It's unserious or someone from there can never rise into someone from there can never rise into someone from there can never rise into political power. political power. political power. >> Is the issue that it did work >> Is the issue that it did work >> Is the issue that it did work differently before? I mean, I always differently before? I mean, I always differently before? I mean, I always understand money as having been able to understand money as having been able to understand money as having been able to buy two things. Money could buy a buy two things. Money could buy a buy two things. Money could buy a certain amount of attention by buying certain amount of attention by buying certain amount of attention by buying mailers, by buying TV spots, that kind mailers, by buying TV spots, that kind mailers, by buying TV spots, that kind of thing. And money could buy a certain of thing. And money could buy a certain of thing. And money could buy a certain amount of organizing by, you know, amount of organizing by, you know, amount of organizing by, you know, paying for yard signs, by sending out paying for yard signs, by sending out paying for yard signs, by sending out people into the field. And that both of people into the field. And that both of people into the field. And that both of those things have gotten in a way harder those things have gotten in a way harder those things have gotten in a way harder to buy. People don't watch TV spots to buy. People don't watch TV spots to buy. People don't watch TV spots anymore in the same way they used to. um anymore in the same way they used to. um anymore in the same way they used to. um any easier or more straightforward to any easier or more straightforward to any easier or more straightforward to earn. Like if you have enthusiasm, if earn. Like if you have enthusiasm, if earn. Like if you have enthusiasm, if you're somebody compelling, all of a you're somebody compelling, all of a you're somebody compelling, all of a sudden your videos can go viral and sudden your videos can go viral and sudden your videos can go viral and people scrolling through TikTok in your people scrolling through TikTok in your people scrolling through TikTok in your area will see you that that that it

area will see you that that that it area will see you that that that it actually was optimized for something actually was optimized for something actually was optimized for something that made sense at one time and that now that made sense at one time and that now that made sense at one time and that now that's no longer true or or is it just that's no longer true or or is it just that's no longer true or or is it just that you just get the money a different that you just get the money a different that you just get the money a different way? The money still matters just as way? The money still matters just as way? The money still matters just as much, but you get it differently. much, but you get it differently. much, but you get it differently. >> I think money still matters profoundly >> I think money still matters profoundly >> I think money still matters profoundly and you get it differently. But I do and you get it differently. But I do and you get it differently. But I do think the main thing is you can't hide think the main thing is you can't hide think the main thing is you can't hide behind 30 secondond ads anymore. You behind 30 secondond ads anymore. You behind 30 secondond ads anymore. You know, like you can't just run a campaign know, like you can't just run a campaign know, like you can't just run a campaign predicated on paid media. You are predicated on paid media. You are predicated on paid media. You are constantly expected to be communicating. constantly expected to be communicating. constantly expected to be communicating. And I think people's standards for And I think people's standards for And I think people's standards for transparency has risen in the social transparency has risen in the social transparency has risen in the social media age. Like we now know everything media age. Like we now know everything media age. Like we now know everything about our celebrities. The standard for about our celebrities. The standard for about our celebrities. The standard for the ways in which LeBron James has to the ways in which LeBron James has to the ways in which LeBron James has to interact with the public are interact with the public are interact with the public are fundamentally different than the fundamentally different than the fundamentally different than the standards for the way Michael Jordan had standards for the way Michael Jordan had standards for the way Michael Jordan had to interact with the public. Like if to interact with the public. Like if to interact with the public. Like if LeBron James was at casinos till 5:00 LeBron James was at casinos till 5:00 LeBron James was at casinos till 5:00 a.m. every day, we'd be telling a very a.m. every day, we'd be telling a very a.m. every day, we'd be telling a very different story about LeBron. And I different story about LeBron. And I different story about LeBron. And I think there's a similar thing in think there's a similar thing in think there's a similar thing in politics of everything's under a politics of everything's under a politics of everything's under a microscope. You're being recorded at any microscope. You're being recorded at any microscope. You're being recorded at any given moment. You can't put on a 30-cond given moment. You can't put on a 30-cond given moment. You can't put on a 30-cond facade and hope that that's enough. You facade and hope that that's enough. You facade and hope that that's enough. You need every part of a campaign working need every part of a campaign working need every part of a campaign working together to tell a complete story that together to tell a complete story that together to tell a complete story that can't be artificially constructed and can't be artificially constructed and can't be artificially constructed and you can't cover up for a lack of talent you can't cover up for a lack of talent you can't cover up for a lack of talent candidate. You [snorts] know, there candidate. You [snorts] know, there candidate. You [snorts] know, there still I think the most compelling still I think the most compelling still I think the most compelling indicator of candidate overperformance indicator of candidate overperformance indicator of candidate overperformance is candidate quality. And we can have is candidate quality. And we can have is candidate quality. And we can have all these different debates, but that all these different debates, but that all these different debates, but that just I think remains fundamentally true.

just I think remains fundamentally true. just I think remains fundamentally true. The candidates on that list have a an The candidates on that list have a an The candidates on that list have a an ideological range to them. Um, Fedman ideological range to them. Um, Fedman ideological range to them. Um, Fedman sort of changed a lot after the sort of changed a lot after the sort of changed a lot after the campaign, so he's a little bit of an campaign, so he's a little bit of an campaign, so he's a little bit of an unusual case here after the stroke, but unusual case here after the stroke, but unusual case here after the stroke, but Dan Osborne running as an independent Dan Osborne running as an independent Dan Osborne running as an independent was very populist candidate, but um very was very populist candidate, but um very was very populist candidate, but um very moderate on other issues. did a ad, moderate on other issues. did a ad, moderate on other issues. did a ad, maybe you made the ad about wanting to maybe you made the ad about wanting to maybe you made the ad about wanting to help build the wall on the border with help build the wall on the border with help build the wall on the border with his own hands. You have platin who's his own hands. You have platin who's his own hands. You have platin who's much more progressive, Zoran Mamani much more progressive, Zoran Mamani much more progressive, Zoran Mamani who's a democratic socialist, Nathan who's a democratic socialist, Nathan who's a democratic socialist, Nathan Sage who was sort of in between that. Sage who was sort of in between that. Sage who was sort of in between that. You said before that for you the You said before that for you the You said before that for you the candidates don't need to be progressive, candidates don't need to be progressive, candidates don't need to be progressive, they need to be populist. What's the they need to be populist. What's the they need to be populist. What's the difference? I think frankly a lot of the difference? I think frankly a lot of the difference? I think frankly a lot of the difference is in the labels the general difference is in the labels the general difference is in the labels the general public assigns to it. Um, but what I public assigns to it. Um, but what I public assigns to it. Um, but what I think frustrates me about the current think frustrates me about the current think frustrates me about the current state of the Democratic party is we have state of the Democratic party is we have state of the Democratic party is we have a big tent party a big tent party a big tent party that is constantly kind of shifting and that is constantly kind of shifting and that is constantly kind of shifting and rearranging to exclude people who rearranging to exclude people who rearranging to exclude people who challenge the powers at the heart of it challenge the powers at the heart of it challenge the powers at the heart of it [snorts] and a lot of [snorts] and a lot of [snorts] and a lot of >> be specific. What do you mean by that? I >> be specific. What do you mean by that? I >> be specific. What do you mean by that? I mean, I think, you know, watching people mean, I think, you know, watching people mean, I think, you know, watching people who are like the big, you know, like a who are like the big, you know, like a who are like the big, you know, like a Josh Godheimr of the world, for example, Josh Godheimr of the world, for example, Josh Godheimr of the world, for example, who's someone who's very like, we need a who's someone who's very like, we need a who's someone who's very like, we need a big tent party, big tent party, big tent party, >> member of Congress, >> member of Congress, >> member of Congress, >> member of Congress, but but no one in >> member of Congress, but but no one in >> member of Congress, but but no one in DSA should be allowed in that party.

DSA should be allowed in that party. DSA should be allowed in that party. It's like, well, that's not a big tent It's like, well, that's not a big tent It's like, well, that's not a big tent party, then. Or you see, you know, party, then. Or you see, you know, party, then. Or you see, you know, people who anytime anyone's critical of people who anytime anyone's critical of people who anytime anyone's critical of Israel, well, that's that's not who the Israel, well, that's that's not who the Israel, well, that's that's not who the Democratic party should be. And I'm Democratic party should be. And I'm Democratic party should be. And I'm interested in a big 10 party that kind interested in a big 10 party that kind interested in a big 10 party that kind of flips that a little bit where we're of flips that a little bit where we're of flips that a little bit where we're allowed to disagree on, you know, people allowed to disagree on, you know, people allowed to disagree on, you know, people have different politics on the border or have different politics on the border or have different politics on the border or slightly different approaches on a slightly different approaches on a slightly different approaches on a variety of issues across the country and variety of issues across the country and variety of issues across the country and candidates and campaigns can reflect candidates and campaigns can reflect candidates and campaigns can reflect those. But we are united in a belief those. But we are united in a belief those. But we are united in a belief that we are not even having a good faith that we are not even having a good faith that we are not even having a good faith conversation until we've done serious conversation until we've done serious conversation until we've done serious things about corruption at the heart of things about corruption at the heart of things about corruption at the heart of our politics and until we're working to our politics and until we're working to our politics and until we're working to address an economy that's broken. And to address an economy that's broken. And to address an economy that's broken. And to me, like that's the kind of baseline of me, like that's the kind of baseline of me, like that's the kind of baseline of where people are. And the more we're the where people are. And the more we're the where people are. And the more we're the longer it takes us to get to that place longer it takes us to get to that place longer it takes us to get to that place of kind of being a party that's of kind of being a party that's of kind of being a party that's embodying a challenge to the status quo embodying a challenge to the status quo embodying a challenge to the status quo rather than embodying a protectionist rather than embodying a protectionist rather than embodying a protectionist status quo, the longer we're going to be status quo, the longer we're going to be status quo, the longer we're going to be in the wilderness. in the wilderness. in the wilderness. >> You sort of dodged my progressivism >> You sort of dodged my progressivism >> You sort of dodged my progressivism versus populism question, so let me versus populism question, so let me versus populism question, so let me sharpen it. What is populism? sharpen it. What is populism? sharpen it. What is populism? I think it is a belief that the people I think it is a belief that the people I think it is a belief that the people should have more power should have more power should have more power is kind of how I think about it and is kind of how I think about it and is kind of how I think about it and that's a very my specific interpretation that's a very my specific interpretation that's a very my specific interpretation but I think there's this I think a lot but I think there's this I think a lot but I think there's this I think a lot about the nature of power in terms of about the nature of power in terms of about the nature of power in terms of how people like how much people feel how people like how much people feel how people like how much people feel like they have it in their lives and I like they have it in their lives and I like they have it in their lives and I think a lot of the issues we have stem think a lot of the issues we have stem think a lot of the issues we have stem from the fact that we're at a moment in from the fact that we're at a moment in from the fact that we're at a moment in history that I think people feel more history that I think people feel more history that I think people feel more powerless than ever before.

powerless than ever before. powerless than ever before. >> Was Obama a populist? >> Was Obama a populist? >> Was Obama a populist? >> I believe so. Yes. I I think his entire >> I believe so. Yes. I I think his entire >> I believe so. Yes. I I think his entire theory of the case is deeply populist. theory of the case is deeply populist. theory of the case is deeply populist. Um you he told the story of the country Um you he told the story of the country Um you he told the story of the country belonging to everyone and that that belonging to everyone and that that belonging to everyone and that that being at the heart of things and he told being at the heart of things and he told being at the heart of things and he told and particularly his re-election and particularly his re-election and particularly his re-election campaign I don't think gets talked about campaign I don't think gets talked about campaign I don't think gets talked about enough for just quite how populist the enough for just quite how populist the enough for just quite how populist the approach was. Mitt Romney was a Wall approach was. Mitt Romney was a Wall approach was. Mitt Romney was a Wall Street villain who had shipped our jobs Street villain who had shipped our jobs Street villain who had shipped our jobs away, who wanted more money for himself away, who wanted more money for himself away, who wanted more money for himself and his Wall Street friends, while Obama and his Wall Street friends, while Obama and his Wall Street friends, while Obama was a president who took them on, who was a president who took them on, who was a president who took them on, who brought the economy back, who stared brought the economy back, who stared brought the economy back, who stared down those same villains. Um, I think down those same villains. Um, I think down those same villains. Um, I think that's, you know, example where populism that's, you know, example where populism that's, you know, example where populism allows for a big tent. Uh, and the allows for a big tent. Uh, and the allows for a big tent. Uh, and the people who critique it are just upset people who critique it are just upset people who critique it are just upset because they don't it's against their because they don't it's against their because they don't it's against their own interests. fight and I think this own interests. fight and I think this own interests. fight and I think this was not as much specifically you but was not as much specifically you but was not as much specifically you but worked on Tommy Styer's campaign for worked on Tommy Styer's campaign for worked on Tommy Styer's campaign for governor of California. Tommy Styer is a governor of California. Tommy Styer is a governor of California. Tommy Styer is a billionaire. Can a billionaire be a billionaire. Can a billionaire be a billionaire. Can a billionaire be a populist populist populist >> if you're a class traitor? I I I think >> if you're a class traitor? I I I think >> if you're a class traitor? I I I think Pritskar is another example of like Pritskar is another example of like Pritskar is another example of like >> I think they are they act in a way their >> I think they are they act in a way their >> I think they are they act in a way their policies in a way are in conflict with policies in a way are in conflict with policies in a way are in conflict with the interest of the billionaire class. I the interest of the billionaire class. I the interest of the billionaire class. I I think one of the things I'm trying to I think one of the things I'm trying to I think one of the things I'm trying to get at is in your theory of where the get at is in your theory of where the get at is in your theory of where the Democratic Party has gone wrong, in your Democratic Party has gone wrong, in your Democratic Party has gone wrong, in your theory of where politics is going, what theory of where politics is going, what theory of where politics is going, what separates the candidates able to make separates the candidates able to make separates the candidates able to make the kind of appeal that you think works the kind of appeal that you think works the kind of appeal that you think works um from the candidates who can't look, um from the candidates who can't look, um from the candidates who can't look, if I had I don't know Janet Mills

if I had I don't know Janet Mills if I had I don't know Janet Mills myself, but I am certain if we had Janet myself, but I am certain if we had Janet myself, but I am certain if we had Janet Mills in this studio, she would say she Mills in this studio, she would say she Mills in this studio, she would say she also believes more power should go to also believes more power should go to also believes more power should go to the people. She also believes that the people. She also believes that the people. She also believes that politics is corrupt and has certainly politics is corrupt and has certainly politics is corrupt and has certainly had to like make compromises as any had to like make compromises as any had to like make compromises as any governor has as Zoran Mdani has to make governor has as Zoran Mdani has to make governor has as Zoran Mdani has to make compromises as people in power do. But compromises as people in power do. But compromises as people in power do. But she would probably see herself within she would probably see herself within she would probably see herself within that definition as fitting within it. So that definition as fitting within it. So that definition as fitting within it. So would many of the people would many of the people would many of the people most probably in the establishment most probably in the establishment most probably in the establishment Democratic party that comes in for Democratic party that comes in for Democratic party that comes in for pretty regular tongue lashings from you pretty regular tongue lashings from you pretty regular tongue lashings from you and some of the people around you. So So and some of the people around you. So So and some of the people around you. So So what is the line here? the ability to what is the line here? the ability to what is the line here? the ability to name villains. name villains. name villains. >> Like it it drives me insane about that. >> Like it it drives me insane about that. >> Like it it drives me insane about that. You have these, you know, even uh all You have these, you know, even uh all You have these, you know, even uh all the people who've kind of taken on the people who've kind of taken on the people who've kind of taken on affordability. It's like, and you hear affordability. It's like, and you hear affordability. It's like, and you hear these politicians talk about it and these politicians talk about it and these politicians talk about it and they're like, you know, we have an they're like, you know, we have an they're like, you know, we have an affordability crisis, which is why I'm affordability crisis, which is why I'm affordability crisis, which is why I'm here talking about affordability because here talking about affordability because here talking about affordability because what Democrats need to do is we need to what Democrats need to do is we need to what Democrats need to do is we need to talk about affordability. It's like, talk about affordability. It's like, talk about affordability. It's like, you're not saying anything. Everyone is you're not saying anything. Everyone is you're not saying anything. Everyone is dealing with some version of an dealing with some version of an dealing with some version of an affordability crisis across the country.

affordability crisis across the country. affordability crisis across the country. The villains of it are specific in The villains of it are specific in The villains of it are specific in specific places. In some places it's specific places. In some places it's specific places. In some places it's broken right to repair laws. In some broken right to repair laws. In some broken right to repair laws. In some places it's bad landlords. In some places it's bad landlords. In some places it's bad landlords. In some places it's electric monopolies. In places it's electric monopolies. In places it's electric monopolies. In other places it's specific billionaires other places it's specific billionaires other places it's specific billionaires or corporations. or corporations. or corporations. I don't think that like I don't think I don't think that like I don't think I don't think that like I don't think Janet Mills would name the people who Janet Mills would name the people who Janet Mills would name the people who are taking the power and using it to are taking the power and using it to are taking the power and using it to hurt working people. hurt working people. hurt working people. >> So So that's the point of populism. And >> So So that's the point of populism. And >> So So that's the point of populism. And it's not just believing the people it's not just believing the people it's not just believing the people should have more power, but it's should have more power, but it's should have more power, but it's believing that there is a small group of believing that there is a small group of believing that there is a small group of people or corporations or something that people or corporations or something that people or corporations or something that has collected the power and that's what has collected the power and that's what has collected the power and that's what needs to be broken and and and needs to be broken and and and needs to be broken and and and articulating that conflict clearly. I articulating that conflict clearly. I articulating that conflict clearly. I mean, I think there's a case to be made mean, I think there's a case to be made mean, I think there's a case to be made that's like basically populism is a that's like basically populism is a that's like basically populism is a politics that points politics that points politics that points >> and what we have in the rising in the >> and what we have in the rising in the >> and what we have in the rising in the Republican party is a populism that Republican party is a populism that Republican party is a populism that points the finger down or to the side. points the finger down or to the side. points the finger down or to the side. uh targeting trans communities, uh targeting trans communities, uh targeting trans communities, targeting immigrant communities. And targeting immigrant communities. And targeting immigrant communities. And what we are advocating for is a populism what we are advocating for is a populism what we are advocating for is a populism that points the finger up. And I think that points the finger up. And I think that points the finger up. And I think the friction and the fight right now the friction and the fight right now the friction and the fight right now with a lot of the democratic with a lot of the democratic with a lot of the democratic establishment is there is a belief that establishment is there is a belief that establishment is there is a belief that we are not in this populist moment or we are not in this populist moment or we are not in this populist moment or that we can just kind of get through that we can just kind of get through that we can just kind of get through this moment and things will collapse.

this moment and things will collapse. this moment and things will collapse. The reason that frustrates me so The reason that frustrates me so The reason that frustrates me so intensely is I don't think there is any intensely is I don't think there is any intensely is I don't think there is any electoral indication that that is true. electoral indication that that is true. electoral indication that that is true. And I think there is going to be a And I think there is going to be a And I think there is going to be a populist future in this country. It is a populist future in this country. It is a populist future in this country. It is a question of who's going to control it. question of who's going to control it. question of who's going to control it. And if it is not the Democratic party, And if it is not the Democratic party, And if it is not the Democratic party, then it is going to be the it is only then it is going to be the it is only then it is going to be the it is only going to get worse on the other side. going to get worse on the other side. going to get worse on the other side. And so we need to start pointing up And so we need to start pointing up And so we need to start pointing up before there's no one left around. Uh before there's no one left around. Uh before there's no one left around. Uh you mentioned Obama's 2012 campaign you mentioned Obama's 2012 campaign you mentioned Obama's 2012 campaign before. Obama has these two campaigns before. Obama has these two campaigns before. Obama has these two campaigns that are different. You have the '08 that are different. You have the '08 that are different. You have the '08 campaign which is very hope and change campaign which is very hope and change campaign which is very hope and change and we can all come together and the 12 and we can all come together and the 12 and we can all come together and the 12 campaign which is hardered um you know campaign which is hardered um you know campaign which is hardered um you know more about bureaucrats and billionaires more about bureaucrats and billionaires more about bureaucrats and billionaires and Bane capital etc. And I still see and Bane capital etc. And I still see and Bane capital etc. And I still see the Democratic party sort of vibrating the Democratic party sort of vibrating the Democratic party sort of vibrating between those two approaches, right? You between those two approaches, right? You between those two approaches, right? You know, and you can see reasons to think know, and you can see reasons to think know, and you can see reasons to think about both in polls. People are very about both in polls. People are very about both in polls. People are very upset about political division. They upset about political division. They upset about political division. They want politics to feel differently than want politics to feel differently than want politics to feel differently than it does, right? It is a big 10 party it does, right? It is a big 10 party it does, right? It is a big 10 party that needs to have many kinds of people that needs to have many kinds of people that needs to have many kinds of people inside of it. And on the other hand, you inside of it. And on the other hand, you inside of it. And on the other hand, you know, you ask people like, "Do you think know, you ask people like, "Do you think know, you ask people like, "Do you think the political system basically needs to the political system basically needs to the political system basically needs to be burnt down?" And they tell you yes.

be burnt down?" And they tell you yes. be burnt down?" And they tell you yes. So, how do you think about the balance So, how do you think about the balance So, how do you think about the balance of there's simultaneously a desire in of there's simultaneously a desire in of there's simultaneously a desire in the public for a politics that points the public for a politics that points the public for a politics that points and a politics that and a politics that and a politics that unites and has a kind of fellowship to unites and has a kind of fellowship to unites and has a kind of fellowship to it. It's interesting question. I think it. It's interesting question. I think it. It's interesting question. I think and this is a slightly different answer and this is a slightly different answer and this is a slightly different answer to the question you posed but like I to the question you posed but like I to the question you posed but like I think the other component think the other component think the other component I think there's a sustainability I think there's a sustainability I think there's a sustainability question question question with it like there's this kind of with it like there's this kind of with it like there's this kind of friction of you know how quickly friction of you know how quickly friction of you know how quickly incumbents not just America all over the incumbents not just America all over the incumbents not just America all over the world are turning over because you can world are turning over because you can world are turning over because you can ride this populist wave but then then ride this populist wave but then then ride this populist wave but then then what I think we need a populism that's what I think we need a populism that's what I think we need a populism that's actually I guess to to play to the crowd actually I guess to to play to the crowd actually I guess to to play to the crowd like married to a bit of an abundance like married to a bit of an abundance like married to a bit of an abundance [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and I think you simultaneously need to and I think you simultaneously need to and I think you simultaneously need to restore another word for the kind of restore another word for the kind of restore another word for the kind of unity I think is a restoration of faith unity I think is a restoration of faith unity I think is a restoration of faith in government. in government. in government. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh cuz I think that contributes to a >> Uh cuz I think that contributes to a >> Uh cuz I think that contributes to a dividing factor and kind of this baked dividing factor and kind of this baked dividing factor and kind of this baked in cynicism that's divisive. And I think in cynicism that's divisive. And I think in cynicism that's divisive. And I think populism can be hopeful if you marry it populism can be hopeful if you marry it populism can be hopeful if you marry it with with an abundance-esque approach of with with an abundance-esque approach of with with an abundance-esque approach of the deep belief that government needs to the deep belief that government needs to the deep belief that government needs to work.

work. work. >> The sort of the Zoran Mani approach. >> The sort of the Zoran Mani approach. >> The sort of the Zoran Mani approach. >> Yes. Um, and you can't, you know, I >> Yes. Um, and you can't, you know, I >> Yes. Um, and you can't, you know, I don't think it's a credible claim that don't think it's a credible claim that don't think it's a credible claim that we're going to take back all this power we're going to take back all this power we're going to take back all this power and all this fortune from the and all this fortune from the and all this fortune from the billionaire class or from the oligarchy billionaire class or from the oligarchy billionaire class or from the oligarchy if we can't even build a 100 homes. And if we can't even build a 100 homes. And if we can't even build a 100 homes. And marrying those things together, I think marrying those things together, I think marrying those things together, I think begins to tell a story of a populism begins to tell a story of a populism begins to tell a story of a populism that's hopeful because it's like you can that's hopeful because it's like you can that's hopeful because it's like you can believe in it. It's tangible in your believe in it. It's tangible in your believe in it. It's tangible in your life and it's a reorientation life and it's a reorientation life and it's a reorientation of power and it's all of those things of power and it's all of those things of power and it's all of those things combined. And I think we need more of combined. And I think we need more of combined. And I think we need more of that. Like it it it frustrates me when that. Like it it it frustrates me when that. Like it it it frustrates me when we get into these we get into these we get into these debates over like, you know, you can debates over like, you know, you can debates over like, you know, you can believe in antitrust policy or you can believe in antitrust policy or you can believe in antitrust policy or you can believe in abundance. Like I believe in abundance. Like I believe in abundance. Like I >> I've also found those debates >> I've also found those debates >> I've also found those debates frustrating. [laughter] frustrating. [laughter] frustrating. [laughter] >> Like I I think we can massively cut red >> Like I I think we can massively cut red >> Like I I think we can massively cut red tape that makes people's lives more tape that makes people's lives more tape that makes people's lives more difficult and we can impose new difficult and we can impose new difficult and we can impose new regulations that protect people from regulations that protect people from regulations that protect people from predatory actions. Also, I do I think predatory actions. Also, I do I think predatory actions. Also, I do I think there are a lot of people who are doing there are a lot of people who are doing there are a lot of people who are doing a compelling job of this in raising the a compelling job of this in raising the a compelling job of this in raising the finger from pointing to your neighbor to finger from pointing to your neighbor to finger from pointing to your neighbor to pointing towards the powerful.

pointing towards the powerful. pointing towards the powerful. there can be a story of unity and of there can be a story of unity and of there can be a story of unity and of hope and of love. Like I think about, hope and of love. Like I think about, hope and of love. Like I think about, you know, I can't I did not come up with you know, I can't I did not come up with you know, I can't I did not come up with this. I can't remember who came up with this. I can't remember who came up with this. I can't remember who came up with it and so I apologize to whoever it is. it and so I apologize to whoever it is. it and so I apologize to whoever it is. Um the idea that like it's Obama's wei Um the idea that like it's Obama's wei Um the idea that like it's Obama's wei and it's Bernie's them. Like it's this and it's Bernie's them. Like it's this and it's Bernie's them. Like it's this Obama-esque coalition that's inclusive Obama-esque coalition that's inclusive Obama-esque coalition that's inclusive and that we're all a part of and we're and that we're all a part of and we're and that we're all a part of and we're stronger when we're all in it together stronger when we're all in it together stronger when we're all in it together and we're taking on the Bernie Sanders and we're taking on the Bernie Sanders and we're taking on the Bernie Sanders version of the the villains who are version of the the villains who are version of the the villains who are opposing us. opposing us. opposing us. I I want to come back to some of the I I want to come back to some of the I I want to come back to some of the synthesis questions, but but I want to synthesis questions, but but I want to synthesis questions, but but I want to stay in in populism for a minute. One stay in in populism for a minute. One stay in in populism for a minute. One thing that uh connects the candidates thing that uh connects the candidates thing that uh connects the candidates we've been talking about is they're all we've been talking about is they're all we've been talking about is they're all men. Um is there a connection for you men. Um is there a connection for you men. Um is there a connection for you between populism and gender and between between populism and gender and between between populism and gender and between what you think the public reads as what you think the public reads as what you think the public reads as populist and working class and gender? populist and working class and gender? populist and working class and gender? >> I think there's a I think the public >> I think there's a I think the public >> I think there's a I think the public tends to more loosely assign that term tends to more loosely assign that term tends to more loosely assign that term to men. Um and I don't think it's to men. Um and I don't think it's to men. Um and I don't think it's particularly accurate. I think there's, particularly accurate. I think there's, particularly accurate. I think there's, you know, a lot of candidates like I you know, a lot of candidates like I you know, a lot of candidates like I think about, you know, Rebecca Cook think about, you know, Rebecca Cook think about, you know, Rebecca Cook running in Wisconsin who meets all of running in Wisconsin who meets all of running in Wisconsin who meets all of those same criteria. Um, I think about those same criteria. Um, I think about those same criteria. Um, I think about even like Governor Cheryl across in New even like Governor Cheryl across in New even like Governor Cheryl across in New Jersey who I think is example not like Jersey who I think is example not like Jersey who I think is example not like necessarily the traditional populist is necessarily the traditional populist is necessarily the traditional populist is probably something of a kind of probably something of a kind of probably something of a kind of technocratic populist hybrid. Um, but technocratic populist hybrid. Um, but technocratic populist hybrid. Um, but has campaigned in that way and has has campaigned in that way and has has campaigned in that way and has governed in that way. Um, I know AOC as governed in that way. Um, I know AOC as governed in that way. Um, I know AOC as an example of this. And I think I the an example of this. And I think I the an example of this. And I think I the way people use the term populist way people use the term populist way people use the term populist oftentimes is uh they're kind of code oftentimes is uh they're kind of code oftentimes is uh they're kind of code switching. Uh, if something's switching. Uh, if something's switching. Uh, if something's progressive, it's unelectable and

progressive, it's unelectable and progressive, it's unelectable and populist becomes the populist becomes the populist becomes the electable electable version of electable electable version of electable electable version of progressive. That's not my progressive. That's not my progressive. That's not my interpretation of it. But I think that interpretation of it. But I think that interpretation of it. But I think that that then contributes to like where that then contributes to like where that then contributes to like where people I think people are afraid if they people I think people are afraid if they people I think people are afraid if they start saying AOC is a populist then it start saying AOC is a populist then it start saying AOC is a populist then it undercuts their arguments to keep her undercuts their arguments to keep her undercuts their arguments to keep her from running for president or to keep from running for president or to keep from running for president or to keep her from being president. Um, and then her from being president. Um, and then her from being president. Um, and then there's a kind of component of that. there's a kind of component of that. there's a kind of component of that. >> But is there an outdated idea of what >> But is there an outdated idea of what >> But is there an outdated idea of what the working class looks like here? the working class looks like here? the working class looks like here? >> Yes. because there not all these >> Yes. because there not all these >> Yes. because there not all these candidates. It doesn't fit Mondani or or candidates. It doesn't fit Mondani or or candidates. It doesn't fit Mondani or or some of the others. But if you look at some of the others. But if you look at some of the others. But if you look at Nathan Sage or Federman or Platner, um Nathan Sage or Federman or Platner, um Nathan Sage or Federman or Platner, um Dan Osborne, Dan Osborne, Dan Osborne, it it has this kind of guy who could be it it has this kind of guy who could be it it has this kind of guy who could be a, you know, work on a on an oyster a, you know, work on a on an oyster a, you know, work on a on an oyster farm, on a lobster boat, in a factory farm, on a lobster boat, in a factory farm, on a lobster boat, in a factory when, you know, the working class today when, you know, the working class today when, you know, the working class today is, you know, almost like in a more is, you know, almost like in a more is, you know, almost like in a more modal sense, modal sense, modal sense, uh, uh, uh, immigrant working, an immigrant woman immigrant working, an immigrant woman immigrant working, an immigrant woman working as a home healthcare aid, right? working as a home healthcare aid, right? working as a home healthcare aid, right? that that there is this our politics that that there is this our politics that that there is this our politics treats the working class as if it goes treats the working class as if it goes treats the working class as if it goes to work in a hard hat and it has been a to work in a hard hat and it has been a to work in a hard hat and it has been a critique of you but it's broadly critique of you but it's broadly critique of you but it's broadly speaking been a critique I think of speaking been a critique I think of speaking been a critique I think of Donald Trump of Bernie Sanders of a lot Donald Trump of Bernie Sanders of a lot Donald Trump of Bernie Sanders of a lot of um people in modern politics that of um people in modern politics that of um people in modern politics that they have not tried or managed to come they have not tried or managed to come they have not tried or managed to come up with a more modern way of thinking up with a more modern way of thinking up with a more modern way of thinking about and presenting about and presenting about and presenting what it means to be working class what it means to be working class what it means to be working class I I certainly can't speak for Donald I I certainly can't speak for Donald I I certainly can't speak for Donald Trump and I can't speak for Senator Trump and I can't speak for Senator Trump and I can't speak for Senator Sanders either, but I I think there's I

Sanders either, but I I think there's I Sanders either, but I I think there's I think there is an element of it's the think there is an element of it's the think there is an element of it's the ways in which these things are written ways in which these things are written ways in which these things are written about and grouped and covered and the about and grouped and covered and the about and grouped and covered and the perception. Someone like Jamal Bowman is perception. Someone like Jamal Bowman is perception. Someone like Jamal Bowman is a working-class candidate a working-class candidate a working-class candidate >> who the stories written about him were >> who the stories written about him were >> who the stories written about him were oftentimes tended to leave out the fact oftentimes tended to leave out the fact oftentimes tended to leave out the fact that this is a working-class outsider that this is a working-class outsider that this is a working-class outsider because it was more convenient to lean because it was more convenient to lean because it was more convenient to lean into other critical narratives than to into other critical narratives than to into other critical narratives than to embrace that or you know Cy Bush and you embrace that or you know Cy Bush and you embrace that or you know Cy Bush and you know two members primar last cycle and know two members primar last cycle and know two members primar last cycle and because they don't meet the traditional because they don't meet the traditional because they don't meet the traditional definition then that tag is not applied definition then that tag is not applied definition then that tag is not applied to them which then perpetuates the to them which then perpetuates the to them which then perpetuates the cycle. Well, another way of putting this cycle. Well, another way of putting this cycle. Well, another way of putting this and and a different direction from it is and and a different direction from it is and and a different direction from it is even in polls toward before Platner even in polls toward before Platner even in polls toward before Platner dropped out, Susan Collins was winning dropped out, Susan Collins was winning dropped out, Susan Collins was winning by quite a lot among um white men in by quite a lot among um white men in by quite a lot among um white men in Maine without a college degree. And one Maine without a college degree. And one Maine without a college degree. And one of there's sort of like two dimensions of there's sort of like two dimensions of there's sort of like two dimensions of this. There's been a like well of this. There's been a like well of this. There's been a like well doumented shift where the Democratic doumented shift where the Democratic doumented shift where the Democratic party has become the party of the party has become the party of the party has become the party of the college educated. Um the more left you college educated. Um the more left you college educated. Um the more left you go in the party in some ways like the go in the party in some ways like the go in the party in some ways like the more true that often is. So the DSA is more true that often is. So the DSA is more true that often is. So the DSA is doing incredibly well among doing incredibly well among doing incredibly well among post people with post-graduate degrees post people with post-graduate degrees post people with post-graduate degrees who have like struggled in the economy who have like struggled in the economy who have like struggled in the economy for instance and the the critique has for instance and the the critique has for instance and the the critique has been as I have heard it that the been as I have heard it that the been as I have heard it that the Democratic party's theory of how to win Democratic party's theory of how to win Democratic party's theory of how to win back the working class has been to sort back the working class has been to sort back the working class has been to sort of cosplay the working class and that of cosplay the working class and that of cosplay the working class and that one of the reasons that's not working is one of the reasons that's not working is one of the reasons that's not working is that one it's not what those actual

that one it's not what those actual that one it's not what those actual voters want. Um, again, Platiner did voters want. Um, again, Platiner did voters want. Um, again, Platiner did very well with people who had postgrad very well with people who had postgrad very well with people who had postgrad degrees that there's some sort of weird degrees that there's some sort of weird degrees that there's some sort of weird conflict here between the Democratic conflict here between the Democratic conflict here between the Democratic Party's image of itself and whether you Party's image of itself and whether you Party's image of itself and whether you call the Democratic Party or the DSA, call the Democratic Party or the DSA, call the Democratic Party or the DSA, who's actually in it. How do you see who's actually in it. How do you see who's actually in it. How do you see that? that? that? >> I think it is not a problem that we're >> I think it is not a problem that we're >> I think it is not a problem that we're going to solve in one election or with going to solve in one election or with going to solve in one election or with one campaign. I think is indicative of a one campaign. I think is indicative of a one campaign. I think is indicative of a massive brand problem um that now comes massive brand problem um that now comes massive brand problem um that now comes when you have a D next to your name or when you have a D next to your name or when you have a D next to your name or even frankly don't have an R next to even frankly don't have an R next to even frankly don't have an R next to your name. I mean, it's kind of your name. I mean, it's kind of your name. I mean, it's kind of foundational to it sounds like a bad foundational to it sounds like a bad foundational to it sounds like a bad political speech riff, but it's like it political speech riff, but it's like it political speech riff, but it's like it is fundamentally true that a worker in is fundamentally true that a worker in is fundamentally true that a worker in Michigan who's factory closed has more Michigan who's factory closed has more Michigan who's factory closed has more in common with a waitress in Texas who's in common with a waitress in Texas who's in common with a waitress in Texas who's working at the starvation wage as a working at the starvation wage as a working at the starvation wage as a minimum wage in Texas, regardless of minimum wage in Texas, regardless of minimum wage in Texas, regardless of their races and genders and ages, then their races and genders and ages, then their races and genders and ages, then at any point probably in kind of at any point probably in kind of at any point probably in kind of American history in terms of the degree American history in terms of the degree American history in terms of the degree that there's just this kind of broad that there's just this kind of broad that there's just this kind of broad class erosion. And I think to change it, class erosion. And I think to change it, class erosion. And I think to change it, we need all of the we need so many of we need all of the we need so many of we need all of the we need so many of these people stepping up and running.

these people stepping up and running. these people stepping up and running. You know, there are people who would say You know, there are people who would say You know, there are people who would say that we need more than just an economic that we need more than just an economic that we need more than just an economic argument to win back these people. I argument to win back these people. I argument to win back these people. I don't think that that's untrue. I would don't think that that's untrue. I would don't think that that's untrue. I would argue that like I think there argue that like I think there argue that like I think there alternatives to mass moderation. I think alternatives to mass moderation. I think alternatives to mass moderation. I think like you know localized moderations for like you know localized moderations for like you know localized moderations for things is is appropriate. But I think we things is is appropriate. But I think we things is is appropriate. But I think we need to be telling a story as part of need to be telling a story as part of need to be telling a story as part of this populism that does extend beyond this populism that does extend beyond this populism that does extend beyond just economics. How much is the kind of just economics. How much is the kind of just economics. How much is the kind of candidate you look for somebody who candidate you look for somebody who candidate you look for somebody who actually has to feel themselves failed actually has to feel themselves failed actually has to feel themselves failed by the institutions? by the institutions? by the institutions? I think the credibility thing is I think the credibility thing is I think the credibility thing is absolutely a component of what needs to absolutely a component of what needs to absolutely a component of what needs to be factored in. Like what gives you the be factored in. Like what gives you the be factored in. Like what gives you the credibility to make this argument and to credibility to make this argument and to credibility to make this argument and to have voters believe you? But I also have voters believe you? But I also have voters believe you? But I also think there are a lot of people who are think there are a lot of people who are think there are a lot of people who are not trying that hard to make this not trying that hard to make this not trying that hard to make this critique. Look, I I think that there's a critique. Look, I I think that there's a critique. Look, I I think that there's a whole segment of the Democratic party whole segment of the Democratic party whole segment of the Democratic party that still believes like the end- all that still believes like the end- all that still believes like the end- all beall problem is Donald Trump. The beall problem is Donald Trump. The beall problem is Donald Trump. The entire critique is one of Donald Trump. entire critique is one of Donald Trump. entire critique is one of Donald Trump. every problem we're facing is the result every problem we're facing is the result every problem we're facing is the result of Donald Trump. And I think our heads of Donald Trump. And I think our heads of Donald Trump. And I think our heads are in the sand if we can't acknowledge are in the sand if we can't acknowledge are in the sand if we can't acknowledge that for 12 last 17 years, Democrats that for 12 last 17 years, Democrats that for 12 last 17 years, Democrats have had the White House. Over those have had the White House. Over those have had the White House. Over those periods of time, we had control of both periods of time, we had control of both periods of time, we had control of both chambers multiple times and people's chambers multiple times and people's chambers multiple times and people's lives have gotten worse. And so, we lives have gotten worse. And so, we lives have gotten worse. And so, we can't just go and tell people Donald can't just go and tell people Donald can't just go and tell people Donald Trump is the reason everything's bad Trump is the reason everything's bad Trump is the reason everything's bad when they've been alive this whole time when they've been alive this whole time when they've been alive this whole time and experienced it. Clearly, there's a and experienced it. Clearly, there's a and experienced it. Clearly, there's a systemic issue here that extends beyond systemic issue here that extends beyond systemic issue here that extends beyond any one president or any one office.

any one president or any one office. any one president or any one office. Yet a lot of our party or at least the Yet a lot of our party or at least the Yet a lot of our party or at least the people in positions of power in the people in positions of power in the people in positions of power in the party aren't levying that critique. party aren't levying that critique. party aren't levying that critique. >> To what degree does this demand in the >> To what degree does this demand in the >> To what degree does this demand in the Democratic party these candidates who Democratic party these candidates who Democratic party these candidates who can code switch? So one of the can code switch? So one of the can code switch? So one of the interesting uh arguments is made in the interesting uh arguments is made in the interesting uh arguments is made in the party going way back right Norman Mer party going way back right Norman Mer party going way back right Norman Mer wrote about this. There's a famous Ron wrote about this. There's a famous Ron wrote about this. There's a famous Ron Brownstein piece on Barack Obama about Brownstein piece on Barack Obama about Brownstein piece on Barack Obama about the sort of wine track and the beer the sort of wine track and the beer the sort of wine track and the beer track in the Democratic party. But track in the Democratic party. But track in the Democratic party. But Platner, an attack people launched at Platner, an attack people launched at Platner, an attack people launched at him, which I thought was sort of wrong. him, which I thought was sort of wrong. him, which I thought was sort of wrong. Um was, you know, he came from a family Um was, you know, he came from a family Um was, you know, he came from a family that had been well off. You know, his that had been well off. You know, his that had been well off. You know, his dad helped buy his home. He went to an dad helped buy his home. He went to an dad helped buy his home. He went to an elite um private school. But you see elite um private school. But you see elite um private school. But you see something like this with Mandani who something like this with Mandani who something like this with Mandani who comes from a a sort of family where his comes from a a sort of family where his comes from a a sort of family where his mother's a celebrated director, his mother's a celebrated director, his mother's a celebrated director, his father's an academic that you know father's an academic that you know father's an academic that you know Donald Trump himself is a billionaire Donald Trump himself is a billionaire Donald Trump himself is a billionaire that often times what you end up seeing that often times what you end up seeing that often times what you end up seeing in candidates who sort of succeed is in candidates who sort of succeed is in candidates who sort of succeed is this ability to operate across different this ability to operate across different this ability to operate across different worlds. [snorts] worlds. [snorts] worlds. [snorts] And so is that something you look for?

And so is that something you look for? And so is that something you look for? Is that something you think is Is that something you think is Is that something you think is important? Like how do you rate that? I important? Like how do you rate that? I important? Like how do you rate that? I don't think it's something that should don't think it's something that should don't think it's something that should be important. There needs to be a way be important. There needs to be a way be important. There needs to be a way for people to get elected without having for people to get elected without having for people to get elected without having kind of coastal communities getting all kind of coastal communities getting all kind of coastal communities getting all on board with them. And even still, like on board with them. And even still, like on board with them. And even still, like there are ways to challenge SSE, there there are ways to challenge SSE, there there are ways to challenge SSE, there are ways to overcome it. There's are ways to overcome it. There's are ways to overcome it. There's grassroots money, but you would to some grassroots money, but you would to some grassroots money, but you would to some degree need buyin from coastal degree need buyin from coastal degree need buyin from coastal communities to be able to really launch communities to be able to really launch communities to be able to really launch to the degree you traditionally have to. to the degree you traditionally have to. to the degree you traditionally have to. >> That's because you need to raise money >> That's because you need to raise money >> That's because you need to raise money from them. from them. from them. >> Money and media. I think the mix of >> Money and media. I think the mix of >> Money and media. I think the mix of money and media attention. Um, and it's money and media attention. Um, and it's money and media attention. Um, and it's just a lot harder. Um, and I think just a lot harder. Um, and I think just a lot harder. Um, and I think there's there's something to be said for there's there's something to be said for there's there's something to be said for the like political utility in being able the like political utility in being able the like political utility in being able to talk to a variety of your to talk to a variety of your to talk to a variety of your constituents and that should be constituents and that should be constituents and that should be important. Um, but I think once you kind important. Um, but I think once you kind important. Um, but I think once you kind of extend into, oh, how comfortable do of extend into, oh, how comfortable do of extend into, oh, how comfortable do they make a donor feel? We're not in a they make a donor feel? We're not in a they make a donor feel? We're not in a place anymore that's serving an place anymore that's serving an place anymore that's serving an electability goal. electability goal. electability goal. >> The campaign here that you worked on >> The campaign here that you worked on >> The campaign here that you worked on that didn't take off was Nathan Sage in that didn't take off was Nathan Sage in that didn't take off was Nathan Sage in Iowa. What went wrong? So I mean he was Iowa. What went wrong? So I mean he was Iowa. What went wrong? So I mean he was one of the people I had in mind when I one of the people I had in mind when I one of the people I had in mind when I was saying this. So I think like Nathan was saying this. So I think like Nathan was saying this. So I think like Nathan is an incredible was an incredible is an incredible was an incredible is an incredible was an incredible candidate who I think would have won the candidate who I think would have won the candidate who I think would have won the Iowa US Senate seat who had an Iowa US Senate seat who had an Iowa US Senate seat who had an incredible story. Um he served three incredible story. Um he served three incredible story. Um he served three tours I believe. He was uh grew up in a tours I believe. He was uh grew up in a tours I believe. He was uh grew up in a trailer park in Mason City, worked his trailer park in Mason City, worked his trailer park in Mason City, worked his way through high school, went to serve way through high school, went to serve way through high school, went to serve um came back then served his small town um came back then served his small town um came back then served his small town chamber of commerce and brought small chamber of commerce and brought small chamber of commerce and brought small businesses back. And his like anger and

businesses back. And his like anger and businesses back. And his like anger and disdain for the people who had sold out disdain for the people who had sold out disdain for the people who had sold out families like his was profound and real. families like his was profound and real. families like his was profound and real. And he also connected deeply with voters And he also connected deeply with voters And he also connected deeply with voters when he was in the room with them at when he was in the room with them at when he was in the room with them at town halls, at campaign events, but it town halls, at campaign events, but it town halls, at campaign events, but it was a little it like I think to the kind was a little it like I think to the kind was a little it like I think to the kind of donor class, it felt abstract or they of donor class, it felt abstract or they of donor class, it felt abstract or they didn't quite see it because they weren't didn't quite see it because they weren't didn't quite see it because they weren't living the lives of other families living the lives of other families living the lives of other families struggling in Iowa. And so it didn't struggling in Iowa. And so it didn't struggling in Iowa. And so it didn't quite break through in the same way. Um, quite break through in the same way. Um, quite break through in the same way. Um, and it's a different skill to pitch and it's a different skill to pitch and it's a different skill to pitch donors and to pitch press than it is to donors and to pitch press than it is to donors and to pitch press than it is to pitch voters. The collapse of local pitch voters. The collapse of local pitch voters. The collapse of local media, I think, has made a this problem media, I think, has made a this problem media, I think, has made a this problem a lot worse. You know, 20 years ago, a lot worse. You know, 20 years ago, a lot worse. You know, 20 years ago, there's profound local media circuits there's profound local media circuits there's profound local media circuits that exist that can that are actually in that exist that can that are actually in that exist that can that are actually in the weeds. If you have really strong the weeds. If you have really strong the weeds. If you have really strong feelings about a factory that's giving feelings about a factory that's giving feelings about a factory that's giving workers cancer in Iowa, you can go and workers cancer in Iowa, you can go and workers cancer in Iowa, you can go and do five interviews about that and show do five interviews about that and show do five interviews about that and show your knowledge of local issues and show your knowledge of local issues and show your knowledge of local issues and show your passion in a way that's going to your passion in a way that's going to your passion in a way that's going to make people's lives better. It's not a make people's lives better. It's not a make people's lives better. It's not a particularly sexy pitch to national particularly sexy pitch to national particularly sexy pitch to national reporters of, hey, are we going to, you reporters of, hey, are we going to, you reporters of, hey, are we going to, you know, do you want to write four know, do you want to write four know, do you want to write four different articles about a factory different articles about a factory different articles about a factory giving workers cancer in Iowa and a giving workers cancer in Iowa and a giving workers cancer in Iowa and a candidate who's incredibly angry about candidate who's incredibly angry about candidate who's incredibly angry about it?

it? it? >> It it also, I think, speaks to >> It it also, I think, speaks to >> It it also, I think, speaks to one to one of the pathologies of a lot one to one of the pathologies of a lot one to one of the pathologies of a lot of Democratic candidates in the of Democratic candidates in the of Democratic candidates in the Democratic party to me right now is that Democratic party to me right now is that Democratic party to me right now is that it is a party of people who love it is a party of people who love it is a party of people who love institutions at a time when institutions institutions at a time when institutions institutions at a time when institutions are failing. And one of the places where are failing. And one of the places where are failing. And one of the places where I'm sympathetic to that is that I'm sympathetic to that is that I'm sympathetic to that is that institutions were actually one of the institutions were actually one of the institutions were actually one of the ways you got attention. I mean, there's ways you got attention. I mean, there's ways you got attention. I mean, there's a huge amount of Democratic party just a huge amount of Democratic party just a huge amount of Democratic party just optimized for a period when you went to optimized for a period when you went to optimized for a period when you went to the newspaper editorial boards and you the newspaper editorial boards and you the newspaper editorial boards and you had to win them over. And so, it wasn't had to win them over. And so, it wasn't had to win them over. And so, it wasn't just could you get attention, it's could just could you get attention, it's could just could you get attention, it's could you impress the editors, could you get you impress the editors, could you get you impress the editors, could you get the endorsement of the local civic the endorsement of the local civic the endorsement of the local civic groups? And now all these layers are groups? And now all these layers are groups? And now all these layers are weaker across much more of the country. weaker across much more of the country. weaker across much more of the country. There's less union density. There are There's less union density. There are There's less union density. There are fewer civic groups that have real fewer civic groups that have real fewer civic groups that have real memberships. There's fewer local memberships. There's fewer local memberships. There's fewer local newspapers and their uh editorial boards newspapers and their uh editorial boards newspapers and their uh editorial boards carry less weight. And so it means carry less weight. And so it means carry less weight. And so it means skills that were once really important skills that were once really important skills that were once really important are less important. And skills that once are less important. And skills that once are less important. And skills that once like couldn't get you anywhere, right? like couldn't get you anywhere, right? like couldn't get you anywhere, right? The newspaper would not cover someone The newspaper would not cover someone The newspaper would not cover someone who both did not have any support and who both did not have any support and who both did not have any support and was just making people mad by saying was just making people mad by saying was just making people mad by saying sort of outlandish things. But now, you sort of outlandish things. But now, you sort of outlandish things. But now, you know, you could be Spencer Pratt in Los know, you could be Spencer Pratt in Los know, you could be Spencer Pratt in Los Angeles and like rock it forward in Angeles and like rock it forward in Angeles and like rock it forward in attention at the very least from being a attention at the very least from being a attention at the very least from being a a candidate like that.

a candidate like that. a candidate like that. >> I think the the gap between, you know, >> I think the the gap between, you know, >> I think the the gap between, you know, editorial rooms and editorial rooms and editorial rooms and corporate boardrooms and what is driving corporate boardrooms and what is driving corporate boardrooms and what is driving voters has never been more profound. And voters has never been more profound. And voters has never been more profound. And I think that's been exacerbated, I I think that's been exacerbated, I I think that's been exacerbated, I think, in the Democratic party by what I think, in the Democratic party by what I think, in the Democratic party by what I think was kind of a problematic shift think was kind of a problematic shift think was kind of a problematic shift after you had in 2012 the kind of after you had in 2012 the kind of after you had in 2012 the kind of moderate to Republican elites moderate to Republican elites moderate to Republican elites essentially handpick Mitt Romney and get essentially handpick Mitt Romney and get essentially handpick Mitt Romney and get him and he receives the nomination and him and he receives the nomination and him and he receives the nomination and Obama wins a daunting re-election on the Obama wins a daunting re-election on the Obama wins a daunting re-election on the populist campaign against him. And then populist campaign against him. And then populist campaign against him. And then you see Donald Trump rise up against you see Donald Trump rise up against you see Donald Trump rise up against that Republican establishment. that Republican establishment. that Republican establishment. And then I think you see this kind of And then I think you see this kind of And then I think you see this kind of misleading exodus from the Republican misleading exodus from the Republican misleading exodus from the Republican party of donors of institutional figures party of donors of institutional figures party of donors of institutional figures to the Democratic party saying I can't to the Democratic party saying I can't to the Democratic party saying I can't be a part of this. And of course they're be a part of this. And of course they're be a part of this. And of course they're welcomed into the tent because they come welcomed into the tent because they come welcomed into the tent because they come with resources and they come with with resources and they come with with resources and they come with platforms that have historically been of platforms that have historically been of platforms that have historically been of electoral significance. We suddenly at a electoral significance. We suddenly at a electoral significance. We suddenly at a moment in which there is a massive moment in which there is a massive moment in which there is a massive uprising against institutions because of uprising against institutions because of uprising against institutions because of think that we're building a new think that we're building a new think that we're building a new coalition that is pro-institution coalition that is pro-institution coalition that is pro-institution and it's we took all the people who made and it's we took all the people who made and it's we took all the people who made the Republican party unelectable folded the Republican party unelectable folded the Republican party unelectable folded them into our tent and let them them into our tent and let them them into our tent and let them influence our approach and I think it's influence our approach and I think it's influence our approach and I think it's fundamentally wrong and broken. And I fundamentally wrong and broken. And I fundamentally wrong and broken. And I think there is a interesting friction think there is a interesting friction think there is a interesting friction that's going to have to play out here that's going to have to play out here that's going to have to play out here [snorts] of what is the traditional [snorts] of what is the traditional [snorts] of what is the traditional media's role in politics which I think media's role in politics which I think media's role in politics which I think is fundamentally different than what it is fundamentally different than what it is fundamentally different than what it has been before. You know like it would

has been before. You know like it would has been before. You know like it would have been unimaginable 20 years ago if I have been unimaginable 20 years ago if I have been unimaginable 20 years ago if I told you the New York Times editorial told you the New York Times editorial told you the New York Times editorial board is going to write a piece board is going to write a piece board is going to write a piece essentially telling voters do not vote essentially telling voters do not vote essentially telling voters do not vote for Zoran Mani and then that person was for Zoran Mani and then that person was for Zoran Mani and then that person was going to win the Democratic primary by going to win the Democratic primary by going to win the Democratic primary by 12 points. 12 points. 12 points. But that's what we saw happen. And I But that's what we saw happen. And I But that's what we saw happen. And I think there's just this this disconnect. think there's just this this disconnect. think there's just this this disconnect. And I think there's a problem like And I think there's a problem like And I think there's a problem like there's a curiosity problem. I think there's a curiosity problem. I think there's a curiosity problem. I think often times we're not asking the right often times we're not asking the right often times we're not asking the right questions about what is driving this. questions about what is driving this. questions about what is driving this. You know, there's a to now compliment um You know, there's a to now compliment um You know, there's a to now compliment um the New York Times. Uh Emma Goldberg did the New York Times. Uh Emma Goldberg did the New York Times. Uh Emma Goldberg did a good piece on this after the election a good piece on this after the election a good piece on this after the election talking about the affordability angle of talking about the affordability angle of talking about the affordability angle of the New York City slate that won. And the New York City slate that won. And the New York City slate that won. And but that was the only piece really but that was the only piece really but that was the only piece really written in a traditional media with that written in a traditional media with that written in a traditional media with that as the center point and those were the as the center point and those were the as the center point and those were the main things those campaigns focused on main things those campaigns focused on main things those campaigns focused on the main things those campaigns focused the main things those campaigns focused the main things those campaigns focused about but all of the kind of dialogue about but all of the kind of dialogue about but all of the kind of dialogue was around unrelated components of it was around unrelated components of it was around unrelated components of it and there's just this disconnect that I and there's just this disconnect that I and there's just this disconnect that I think is a there's a real real friction think is a there's a real real friction think is a there's a real real friction there. there. there. >> When you met Donnie the first time what >> When you met Donnie the first time what >> When you met Donnie the first time what what made you think there was some magic what made you think there was some magic what made you think there was some magic there? I think his profound and earnest there? I think his profound and earnest there? I think his profound and earnest belief that it was government's job to belief that it was government's job to belief that it was government's job to be making things better and like the be making things better and like the be making things better and like the marriage of that with a vision is just marriage of that with a vision is just marriage of that with a vision is just frankly incredibly rare and it shouldn't frankly incredibly rare and it shouldn't frankly incredibly rare and it shouldn't be but it is like the number of people be but it is like the number of people be but it is like the number of people who sit down and say you're thinking who sit down and say you're thinking who sit down and say you're thinking about running for an office and whose about running for an office and whose about running for an office and whose initial answer is we have this crisis I initial answer is we have this crisis I initial answer is we have this crisis I think this office can address this think this office can address this think this office can address this crisis if we just decided we wanted to.

crisis if we just decided we wanted to. crisis if we just decided we wanted to. Yeah, I'm a big believer in I think Yeah, I'm a big believer in I think Yeah, I'm a big believer in I think campaigns aren't won in the content of campaigns aren't won in the content of campaigns aren't won in the content of the battle. They're one in the context the battle. They're one in the context the battle. They're one in the context in which they're taking place. And if in which they're taking place. And if in which they're taking place. And if we're taking campaigns in a context in we're taking campaigns in a context in we're taking campaigns in a context in which we are ashamed of government, in which we are ashamed of government, in which we are ashamed of government, in which we don't believe government can do which we don't believe government can do which we don't believe government can do anything, in which we're apologetic anything, in which we're apologetic anything, in which we're apologetic about government, then it's going to be about government, then it's going to be about government, then it's going to be really hard to convince people to vote really hard to convince people to vote really hard to convince people to vote for the party that is the bigger for the party that is the bigger for the party that is the bigger government party. And if we can't prove government party. And if we can't prove government party. And if we can't prove that government is one of the greatest that government is one of the greatest that government is one of the greatest tools for good known to human history, tools for good known to human history, tools for good known to human history, then how are we going to do anything? then how are we going to do anything? then how are we going to do anything? The first time Mam Donni started coming The first time Mam Donni started coming The first time Mam Donni started coming on my radar I think was a halalflation on my radar I think was a halalflation on my radar I think was a halalflation video video video >> where he was going around with the halal >> where he was going around with the halal >> where he was going around with the halal carts and just I think you're involved carts and just I think you're involved carts and just I think you're involved in this but just noting how much more in this but just noting how much more in this but just noting how much more expensive it had gotten and it wasn't expensive it had gotten and it wasn't expensive it had gotten and it wasn't like this grand socialist vision for like this grand socialist vision for like this grand socialist vision for what government could be. It was very what government could be. It was very what government could be. It was very specific. It was the the whole thing in specific. It was the the whole thing in specific. It was the the whole thing in miniature like repeatedly miniature like repeatedly miniature like repeatedly and like every Democrat now wants to and like every Democrat now wants to and like every Democrat now wants to copy the Mum Donnie visual language and copy the Mum Donnie visual language and copy the Mum Donnie visual language and the Mumani dominance of a vertical the Mumani dominance of a vertical the Mumani dominance of a vertical video. Very few are able to do it. You video. Very few are able to do it. You video. Very few are able to do it. You guys sort of built that together.

guys sort of built that together. guys sort of built that together. When people come to you asking for When people come to you asking for When people come to you asking for lessons from it, what do you tell them lessons from it, what do you tell them lessons from it, what do you tell them to take from it and what you tell them to take from it and what you tell them to take from it and what you tell them to not take from it? to not take from it? to not take from it? I think there were a lot of incredibly I think there were a lot of incredibly I think there were a lot of incredibly talented people on that team from Mil talented people on that team from Mil talented people on that team from Mil Todd and Andrew and I don't think I Todd and Andrew and I don't think I Todd and Andrew and I don't think I think as good as I might be as good as think as good as I might be as good as think as good as I might be as good as they might be everyone looks really good they might be everyone looks really good they might be everyone looks really good riding a Cadillac and Zarani is a riding a Cadillac and Zarani is a riding a Cadillac and Zarani is a generational leader and it's [snorts] generational leader and it's [snorts] generational leader and it's [snorts] hard to take any credit for that. I hard to take any credit for that. I hard to take any credit for that. I think one of the roles um that there is think one of the roles um that there is think one of the roles um that there is to play is frankly like getting out of to play is frankly like getting out of to play is frankly like getting out of the way and we have an entire consultant the way and we have an entire consultant the way and we have an entire consultant industry and a party establishment that industry and a party establishment that industry and a party establishment that has kind of built its role of being like has kind of built its role of being like has kind of built its role of being like oh you have a big idea well don't do oh you have a big idea well don't do oh you have a big idea well don't do that you have something that's going to that you have something that's going to that you have something that's going to expose you to some risk don't do that expose you to some risk don't do that expose you to some risk don't do that you have a broad vision scale it down you have a broad vision scale it down you have a broad vision scale it down you have a new tactic you want to try you have a new tactic you want to try you have a new tactic you want to try well not on our watch and I think the well not on our watch and I think the well not on our watch and I think the reason it is a lot of that was very reason it is a lot of that was very reason it is a lot of that was very specific to the mayor and he, you know, specific to the mayor and he, you know, specific to the mayor and he, you know, had a vision. He had a specific way he had a vision. He had a specific way he had a vision. He had a specific way he was good at communicating and we all was good at communicating and we all was good at communicating and we all worked to build a system in which he was worked to build a system in which he was worked to build a system in which he was able to do that that could meet people able to do that that could meet people able to do that that could meet people where they were and it also could where they were and it also could where they were and it also could reimagine what an electorate would look reimagine what an electorate would look reimagine what an electorate would look like. And I think that's one of the like. And I think that's one of the like. And I think that's one of the issues we get into is we have these like issues we get into is we have these like issues we get into is we have these like imaginary visions of a bakedin imaginary visions of a bakedin imaginary visions of a bakedin electorate with no imagination of electorate with no imagination of electorate with no imagination of reshaping. I think this speaks to like reshaping. I think this speaks to like reshaping. I think this speaks to like the white working class issue too. how the white working class issue too. how the white working class issue too. how much of the issues we face there are the much of the issues we face there are the much of the issues we face there are the result of the fact that we have pulled result of the fact that we have pulled result of the fact that we have pulled resources from the places that are

resources from the places that are resources from the places that are predominantly predominantly predominantly rural white working-class areas and so rural white working-class areas and so rural white working-class areas and so there they are not hearing then you there they are not hearing then you there they are not hearing then you combine that with the rise of combine that with the rise of combine that with the rise of conservative media in those areas they conservative media in those areas they conservative media in those areas they are hearing a 365 day a year narrative are hearing a 365 day a year narrative are hearing a 365 day a year narrative that is going uncombed it is not enough that is going uncombed it is not enough that is going uncombed it is not enough in 8 weeks or 8 months to just fight in 8 weeks or 8 months to just fight in 8 weeks or 8 months to just fight back against that it takes a year round back against that it takes a year round back against that it takes a year round effort to reach those people what you effort to reach those people what you effort to reach those people what you saw at the mayor is a belief that no saw at the mayor is a belief that no saw at the mayor is a belief that no maybe actually if we talked to young maybe actually if we talked to young maybe actually if we talked to young people and gave them a vision for a city people and gave them a vision for a city people and gave them a vision for a city they can afford they will come out and they can afford they will come out and they can afford they will come out and show up for it. Maybe if you do not run show up for it. Maybe if you do not run show up for it. Maybe if you do not run away from Muslim identity but embraced away from Muslim identity but embraced away from Muslim identity but embraced it Muslim voters are going to come out it Muslim voters are going to come out it Muslim voters are going to come out in mass to support that vision. I think in mass to support that vision. I think in mass to support that vision. I think meeting people where they are and meeting people where they are and meeting people where they are and believing that people actually will want believing that people actually will want believing that people actually will want to take part in our politics if we to take part in our politics if we to take part in our politics if we extend a hand is something that can be extend a hand is something that can be extend a hand is something that can be taken to any campaign. One thing that taken to any campaign. One thing that taken to any campaign. One thing that was striking to me about you and mom was striking to me about you and mom was striking to me about you and mom Donnie and I always want when I'm Donnie and I always want when I'm Donnie and I always want when I'm talking about attention to not make it talking about attention to not make it talking about attention to not make it feel like I'm separating out political feel like I'm separating out political feel like I'm separating out political positions or right like the product positions or right like the product positions or right like the product you're selling is the most important you're selling is the most important you're selling is the most important part of selling it. But I think there's part of selling it. But I think there's part of selling it. But I think there's also something about having a touch for also something about having a touch for also something about having a touch for how stories and storytelling in this how stories and storytelling in this how stories and storytelling in this moment work. And mom Donniey's mother is moment work. And mom Donniey's mother is moment work. And mom Donniey's mother is a famed film director. Your godfather I a famed film director. Your godfather I a famed film director. Your godfather I learned was Philip Seymour Hoffman, learned was Philip Seymour Hoffman, learned was Philip Seymour Hoffman, right? that your father I think was a right? that your father I think was a right? that your father I think was a producer.

producer. producer. it. Is there something right now for you it. Is there something right now for you it. Is there something right now for you actually just about the centrality actually just about the centrality actually just about the centrality of being able to storytell in this of being able to storytell in this of being able to storytell in this moment, right? Is there something in moment, right? Is there something in moment, right? Is there something in that campaign between the two of you that campaign between the two of you that campaign between the two of you around that? It seems to me not around that? It seems to me not around that? It seems to me not accidental. accidental. accidental. I think you know like uh there's I think you know like uh there's I think you know like uh there's something to our politics that relating something to our politics that relating something to our politics that relating to some of the other things we've talked to some of the other things we've talked to some of the other things we've talked about like the requirement of a leap of about like the requirement of a leap of about like the requirement of a leap of faith and that that takes more than just faith and that that takes more than just faith and that that takes more than just an argument but it takes a story. an argument but it takes a story. an argument but it takes a story. >> A leap of faith from the voter >> A leap of faith from the voter >> A leap of faith from the voter >> from the voter. Mhm. [clears throat] >> from the voter. Mhm. [clears throat] >> from the voter. Mhm. [clears throat] >> I think a lot about um when when my >> I think a lot about um when when my >> I think a lot about um when when my godfather when Phil was doing Death of a godfather when Phil was doing Death of a godfather when Phil was doing Death of a Salesman uh early on when he was like Salesman uh early on when he was like Salesman uh early on when he was like first talking about doing it, he was first talking about doing it, he was first talking about doing it, he was describing like the best play ever describing like the best play ever describing like the best play ever written. written. written. And he talks about how it starts, you And he talks about how it starts, you And he talks about how it starts, you know, it's this incredible play, but know, it's this incredible play, but know, it's this incredible play, but barely anything happens. It starts with barely anything happens. It starts with barely anything happens. It starts with a sigh. It's the first stage direction a sigh. It's the first stage direction a sigh. It's the first stage direction or first audible stage direction is a or first audible stage direction is a or first audible stage direction is a sigh from Willie Lman. And in that sigh, sigh from Willie Lman. And in that sigh, sigh from Willie Lman. And in that sigh, you've met a man who's been defeated by you've met a man who's been defeated by you've met a man who's been defeated by feeling like no matter what he does, it feeling like no matter what he does, it feeling like no matter what he does, it is not enough. He has no path to hope, is not enough. He has no path to hope, is not enough. He has no path to hope, to prosperity. And over the course of to prosperity. And over the course of to prosperity. And over the course of the play, what we just see is someone the play, what we just see is someone the play, what we just see is someone who's already given up on life finally who's already given up on life finally who's already given up on life finally give up on life.

give up on life. give up on life. And I think we need to fundamentally, And I think we need to fundamentally, And I think we need to fundamentally, materially change people's lives in materially change people's lives in materially change people's lives in massive, massive ways. But we also need massive, massive ways. But we also need massive, massive ways. But we also need to find there's so many people right now to find there's so many people right now to find there's so many people right now who I think that is a version of the who I think that is a version of the who I think that is a version of the story they're living. Not not story they're living. Not not story they're living. Not not necessarily literally, but just this necessarily literally, but just this necessarily literally, but just this deep hopelessness. deep hopelessness. deep hopelessness. And if we can tell a story that things And if we can tell a story that things And if we can tell a story that things can be different, if we can tell a story can be different, if we can tell a story can be different, if we can tell a story that they have a role to play, if we can that they have a role to play, if we can that they have a role to play, if we can tell a story that they matter, tell a story that they matter, tell a story that they matter, then that is an act of radical change, then that is an act of radical change, then that is an act of radical change, too. I was genuinely skeptical that the too. I was genuinely skeptical that the too. I was genuinely skeptical that the the way the campaign the way the campaign the way the campaign was constantly present, the way mom was constantly present, the way mom was constantly present, the way mom Donnie was constantly present during the Donnie was constantly present during the Donnie was constantly present during the campaign could translate into governing. campaign could translate into governing. campaign could translate into governing. Trump has done that, but he does it by Trump has done that, but he does it by Trump has done that, but he does it by constantly pissing people off, right? constantly pissing people off, right? constantly pissing people off, right? Unlocking constant energy through Unlocking constant energy through Unlocking constant energy through outrage and conflict and anger. Mom outrage and conflict and anger. Mom outrage and conflict and anger. Mom Donnie has managed to maintain a Donnie has managed to maintain a Donnie has managed to maintain a constant presence if you're in New York. constant presence if you're in New York. constant presence if you're in New York. Probably if you're not in New York too, Probably if you're not in New York too, Probably if you're not in New York too, but certainly if you are in New York and but certainly if you are in New York and but certainly if you are in New York and just the, you know, almost separate from just the, you know, almost separate from just the, you know, almost separate from what he is doing, though there are real what he is doing, though there are real what he is doing, though there are real things he's doing, you just kind of see things he's doing, you just kind of see things he's doing, you just kind of see him doing things for New York all the him doing things for New York all the him doing things for New York all the time, right? You turn on your phone and time, right? You turn on your phone and time, right? You turn on your phone and there he is. It's genuinely felt new to there he is. It's genuinely felt new to there he is. It's genuinely felt new to me. Is is that something sort of only he me. Is is that something sort of only he me. Is is that something sort of only he can do? And New York is an unusual media can do? And New York is an unusual media can do? And New York is an unusual media market. It's giant. All the media, not market. It's giant. All the media, not market. It's giant. All the media, not all, but a lot of the media is centered all, but a lot of the media is centered all, but a lot of the media is centered here. So, he can sort of project outward here. So, he can sort of project outward here. So, he can sort of project outward from being here in a way that it is

from being here in a way that it is from being here in a way that it is harder if you're in Boston or to say harder if you're in Boston or to say harder if you're in Boston or to say nothing of a smaller town than that. Or nothing of a smaller town than that. Or nothing of a smaller town than that. Or is there a genuine lesson there? is there a genuine lesson there? is there a genuine lesson there? >> I think there's a genuine lesson. I >> I think there's a genuine lesson. I >> I think there's a genuine lesson. I think the the first lesson is to elect think the the first lesson is to elect think the the first lesson is to elect leaders who are serious about governing leaders who are serious about governing leaders who are serious about governing and who believe in a very proactive and who believe in a very proactive and who believe in a very proactive approach for governing. But I think in approach for governing. But I think in approach for governing. But I think in some ways to me it's like the some ways to me it's like the some ways to me it's like the second side. If you if you wrote a second side. If you if you wrote a second side. If you if you wrote a sequel to Abundance, I feel like it sequel to Abundance, I feel like it sequel to Abundance, I feel like it would be there's like the communication would be there's like the communication would be there's like the communication side of it. And if side of it. And if side of it. And if if we believe that there's a crisis of if we believe that there's a crisis of if we believe that there's a crisis of faith in government's ability to do faith in government's ability to do faith in government's ability to do things, I think there's an obligation to things, I think there's an obligation to things, I think there's an obligation to not just do things, to not just make it not just do things, to not just make it not just do things, to not just make it easier to do things, but to tell the easier to do things, but to tell the easier to do things, but to tell the story of doing things. In 2023, 2024, I story of doing things. In 2023, 2024, I story of doing things. In 2023, 2024, I was driving through Michigan and there was driving through Michigan and there was driving through Michigan and there was a sign somewhere that was like, was a sign somewhere that was like, was a sign somewhere that was like, "This road is being paved because of the "This road is being paved because of the "This road is being paved because of the bipartisan highway bill." And it's like bipartisan highway bill." And it's like bipartisan highway bill." And it's like barely any Republicans voted for that barely any Republicans voted for that barely any Republicans voted for that piece of legislation. And that is how we piece of legislation. And that is how we piece of legislation. And that is how we are marketing it. Why wouldn't we be are marketing it. Why wouldn't we be are marketing it. Why wouldn't we be leaning in like Democrats did leaning in like Democrats did leaning in like Democrats did this? Sorry, I don't know if I cursed this? Sorry, I don't know if I cursed this? Sorry, I don't know if I cursed that.

that. that. >> You I did. So, you're you're welcome to. >> You I did. So, you're you're welcome to. >> You I did. So, you're you're welcome to. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um, [snorts] >> Um, [snorts] >> Um, [snorts] >> we're trying to get attention here, man. >> we're trying to get attention here, man. >> we're trying to get attention here, man. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Attention economy. um leaning in. We >> Attention economy. um leaning in. We >> Attention economy. um leaning in. We need to campaign at the speed of the need to campaign at the speed of the need to campaign at the speed of the modern attention span and I think you modern attention span and I think you modern attention span and I think you need to govern at the speed of the need to govern at the speed of the need to govern at the speed of the modern attention span and there is such modern attention span and there is such modern attention span and there is such a laidback approach to you know in 8 a laidback approach to you know in 8 a laidback approach to you know in 8 years this is going to be phased in in a years this is going to be phased in in a years this is going to be phased in in a decade this is going to be built like decade this is going to be built like decade this is going to be built like that does not meet the urgency people that does not meet the urgency people that does not meet the urgency people are feeling and to restore the bond are feeling and to restore the bond are feeling and to restore the bond between the public and government there between the public and government there between the public and government there needs to be that urgency. needs to be that urgency. needs to be that urgency. What about at the level of affect? One What about at the level of affect? One What about at the level of affect? One way mom Donnie feels different to me way mom Donnie feels different to me way mom Donnie feels different to me than some of the other people who have than some of the other people who have than some of the other people who have been on your roster and and populism in been on your roster and and populism in been on your roster and and populism in general. Popism in general I think has general. Popism in general I think has general. Popism in general I think has reputation rightly or wrongly as being reputation rightly or wrongly as being reputation rightly or wrongly as being pretty pissed off and pretty pissed off and pretty pissed off and I'm not saying Mam Donnie isn't like I'm not saying Mam Donnie isn't like I'm not saying Mam Donnie isn't like there is genuine anger in him correctly there is genuine anger in him correctly there is genuine anger in him correctly so about the ways people are harmed and so about the ways people are harmed and so about the ways people are harmed and ripped off and how unaffordable it is to ripped off and how unaffordable it is to ripped off and how unaffordable it is to live in this city.

live in this city. live in this city. But one, he always looks like he's But one, he always looks like he's But one, he always looks like he's enjoying governing. Like he looks like enjoying governing. Like he looks like enjoying governing. Like he looks like he likes his job, which a lot of people, he likes his job, which a lot of people, he likes his job, which a lot of people, they get elected and then they seem kind they get elected and then they seem kind they get elected and then they seem kind of miserable from then on, which fair of miserable from then on, which fair of miserable from then on, which fair enough, it can be a pretty miserable enough, it can be a pretty miserable enough, it can be a pretty miserable job, but he looks like he enjoys it. job, but he looks like he enjoys it. job, but he looks like he enjoys it. >> Um, but there's also a like a like a >> Um, but there's also a like a like a >> Um, but there's also a like a like a positive affect from him, like a positive affect from him, like a positive affect from him, like a sunniness that I don't associate with sunniness that I don't associate with sunniness that I don't associate with Democrats in general. I don't associate Democrats in general. I don't associate Democrats in general. I don't associate with populist and specific, right? with populist and specific, right? with populist and specific, right? Bernie Sanders isn't known um for his Bernie Sanders isn't known um for his Bernie Sanders isn't known um for his sunniness. sunniness. sunniness. I I just don't see it from that many I I just don't see it from that many I I just don't see it from that many politicians. Like I I can politicians. Like I I can politicians. Like I I can most politicians and Trump is not like most politicians and Trump is not like most politicians and Trump is not like this, but most politicians it's like this, but most politicians it's like this, but most politicians it's like they they treat the work pretty grimly. they they treat the work pretty grimly. they they treat the work pretty grimly. >> I think there's you can't fake it. And I >> I think there's you can't fake it. And I >> I think there's you can't fake it. And I think that is one of the challenges. think that is one of the challenges. think that is one of the challenges. Like there are a lot of different things Like there are a lot of different things Like there are a lot of different things in politics you can fake. You can't fake in politics you can fake. You can't fake in politics you can fake. You can't fake a true love of the place and the people a true love of the place and the people a true love of the place and the people you're representing. you're representing. you're representing. And the mayor doesn't. The mayor loves I And the mayor doesn't. The mayor loves I And the mayor doesn't. The mayor loves I think the mayor truly loves every single think the mayor truly loves every single think the mayor truly loves every single New York City resident. Like regardless New York City resident. Like regardless New York City resident. Like regardless of what they may say about him, like he of what they may say about him, like he of what they may say about him, like he just loves this city and he lo and it just loves this city and he lo and it just loves this city and he lo and it comes through. And I think there's comes through. And I think there's comes through. And I think there's something I think there can be a better something I think there can be a better something I think there can be a better job done on the kind of at least on the job done on the kind of at least on the job done on the kind of at least on the left populist side of the spectrum of left populist side of the spectrum of left populist side of the spectrum of articulating that this is a labor of articulating that this is a labor of articulating that this is a labor of love. I think Trump supporters are love. I think Trump supporters are love. I think Trump supporters are having a very good time, you know, like having a very good time, you know, like having a very good time, you know, like they do. It's abstract to us, but there

they do. It's abstract to us, but there they do. It's abstract to us, but there was a joy to that to when he was was a joy to that to when he was was a joy to that to when he was campaigning. You know, people are it's campaigning. You know, people are it's campaigning. You know, people are it's like almost a cultural phenomenon of like almost a cultural phenomenon of like almost a cultural phenomenon of what it means. And you're wearing your what it means. And you're wearing your what it means. And you're wearing your Trump hat or your Trump sticker, like a Trump hat or your Trump sticker, like a Trump hat or your Trump sticker, like a badge of honor. And I think there's badge of honor. And I think there's badge of honor. And I think there's something to that of like something something to that of like something something to that of like something people can take pride in, something people can take pride in, something people can take pride in, something people can see themselves in where they people can see themselves in where they people can see themselves in where they belong. And to me it does relate to the belong. And to me it does relate to the belong. And to me it does relate to the like to the power component of people like to the power component of people like to the power component of people feel I think a mix of factors from like feel I think a mix of factors from like feel I think a mix of factors from like globalization economic factors to then globalization economic factors to then globalization economic factors to then like the influence of social media um like the influence of social media um like the influence of social media um people feel just so small and if you can people feel just so small and if you can people feel just so small and if you can bring them into something that makes bring them into something that makes bring them into something that makes them feel big which is what populism them feel big which is what populism them feel big which is what populism should be at its best should be at its best should be at its best there's joy in that process and it needs there's joy in that process and it needs there's joy in that process and it needs to be reflected. One of the more radical to be reflected. One of the more radical to be reflected. One of the more radical things I think Mdani has done has been things I think Mdani has done has been things I think Mdani has done has been to then use the kind of popularity as to then use the kind of popularity as to then use the kind of popularity as his mayor, the influences as mayor to his mayor, the influences as mayor to his mayor, the influences as mayor to launch a series of primary challenges of launch a series of primary challenges of launch a series of primary challenges of either incumbents like Dan Goldman um either incumbents like Dan Goldman um either incumbents like Dan Goldman um you know or sort of incumbentbacked you know or sort of incumbentbacked you know or sort of incumbentbacked establishmentbacked um politicians to to establishmentbacked um politicians to to establishmentbacked um politicians to to send allies like you know Brad Lander or send allies like you know Brad Lander or send allies like you know Brad Lander or Valdez to Congress.

Valdez to Congress. Valdez to Congress. Uh there's also been a DSA component of Uh there's also been a DSA component of Uh there's also been a DSA component of this. you worked on these campaigns, I this. you worked on these campaigns, I this. you worked on these campaigns, I think sort of working through Mandani think sort of working through Mandani think sort of working through Mandani and it led to a lot of debate and and it led to a lot of debate and and it led to a lot of debate and discussion about whether or not the discussion about whether or not the discussion about whether or not the Democratic part is in like the beginning Democratic part is in like the beginning Democratic part is in like the beginning of a schisming moment. of a schisming moment. of a schisming moment. So is that how you see it? Like how do So is that how you see it? Like how do So is that how you see it? Like how do you understand the power building you understand the power building you understand the power building efforts that Mandani that the DSA that efforts that Mandani that the DSA that efforts that Mandani that the DSA that some of the more um frankly that the some of the more um frankly that the some of the more um frankly that the Platiner campaign represented? like what Platiner campaign represented? like what Platiner campaign represented? like what is the relationship of the sort of is the relationship of the sort of is the relationship of the sort of populist push and the established populist push and the established populist push and the established Democratic party? Democratic party? Democratic party? >> I think >> I think >> I think like my perspective on it is, you know, like my perspective on it is, you know, like my perspective on it is, you know, either politicians can change or the either politicians can change or the either politicians can change or the voters for whom they represent are going voters for whom they represent are going voters for whom they represent are going to change who who's representing them. to change who who's representing them. to change who who's representing them. And it's not like the the idea that And it's not like the the idea that And it's not like the the idea that anyone gets to be a gatekeeper to the anyone gets to be a gatekeeper to the anyone gets to be a gatekeeper to the party I find kind of absurd. It is not party I find kind of absurd. It is not party I find kind of absurd. It is not our intent to define. Voters can define our intent to define. Voters can define our intent to define. Voters can define and we you know everyone can play their and we you know everyone can play their and we you know everyone can play their role in making the case to voters of role in making the case to voters of role in making the case to voters of what they believe it should be. And it's what they believe it should be. And it's what they believe it should be. And it's like why are we not asking the question like why are we not asking the question like why are we not asking the question what did Daria Lisa do right to energize what did Daria Lisa do right to energize what did Daria Lisa do right to energize all these new people and bring in all all these new people and bring in all all these new people and bring in all these young voters and you can hold room these young voters and you can hold room these young voters and you can hold room for I disagree with whatever respective for I disagree with whatever respective for I disagree with whatever respective comments but I'm also curious about comments but I'm also curious about comments but I'm also curious about maybe there's something here to offer.

maybe there's something here to offer. maybe there's something here to offer. Putting aside the moral component of it Putting aside the moral component of it Putting aside the moral component of it all that it is bad electoral math to all that it is bad electoral math to all that it is bad electoral math to believe in subtraction. The job is to believe in subtraction. The job is to believe in subtraction. The job is to bring more people in. We have primaries. bring more people in. We have primaries. bring more people in. We have primaries. We have elections. That's how this We have elections. That's how this We have elections. That's how this works. And the sore loser component of works. And the sore loser component of works. And the sore loser component of it, I don't think is like particularly it, I don't think is like particularly it, I don't think is like particularly productive. And I think there is. We productive. And I think there is. We productive. And I think there is. We should be excited by the fact there's so should be excited by the fact there's so should be excited by the fact there's so many new young people showing up to many new young people showing up to many new young people showing up to vote. We should be excited by the fact vote. We should be excited by the fact vote. We should be excited by the fact that people who haven't voted in decades that people who haven't voted in decades that people who haven't voted in decades are shown to vote. That people are early are shown to vote. That people are early are shown to vote. That people are early voting faster because they're more voting faster because they're more voting faster because they're more eager. Like there is [snorts] something eager. Like there is [snorts] something eager. Like there is [snorts] something good here that's happening. And I think good here that's happening. And I think good here that's happening. And I think the people who feel threatened by it the people who feel threatened by it the people who feel threatened by it could do themselves a favor by embracing could do themselves a favor by embracing could do themselves a favor by embracing it. The critique I hear from the sort of it. The critique I hear from the sort of it. The critique I hear from the sort of Democrats you're I think talking about Democrats you're I think talking about Democrats you're I think talking about there is that what's going on now is there is that what's going on now is there is that what's going on now is that in safe democratic areas the party that in safe democratic areas the party that in safe democratic areas the party is going left and that's they might have is going left and that's they might have is going left and that's they might have whatever view they have on that but whatever view they have on that but whatever view they have on that but their the their worry about it and their their the their worry about it and their their the their worry about it and their worry about the energy around it about worry about the energy around it about worry about the energy around it about the amount of media attention it gets the amount of media attention it gets the amount of media attention it gets from people like me is they feel that it from people like me is they feel that it from people like me is they feel that it makes the Democratic party's job in a makes the Democratic party's job in a makes the Democratic party's job in a place like North Carolina or Ohio harder place like North Carolina or Ohio harder place like North Carolina or Ohio harder that the the perception of the national that the the perception of the national that the the perception of the national party is that it's becoming more party is that it's becoming more party is that it's becoming more socialist. You know, you have people who socialist. You know, you have people who socialist. You know, you have people who made all kinds of comments about, you made all kinds of comments about, you made all kinds of comments about, you know, defunding the police or abolishing know, defunding the police or abolishing know, defunding the police or abolishing prisons. So, I think as somebody who prisons. So, I think as somebody who prisons. So, I think as somebody who does care about winning, not just in does care about winning, not just in does care about winning, not just in places like Maine, which is more blue, places like Maine, which is more blue, places like Maine, which is more blue, but in places like Ohio and Alaska, but in places like Ohio and Alaska, but in places like Ohio and Alaska, etc., how do you think about that

etc., how do you think about that etc., how do you think about that challenge? like how does this mass of challenge? like how does this mass of challenge? like how does this mass of Democratic parties become one thing that Democratic parties become one thing that Democratic parties become one thing that can can compete not just in New York can can compete not just in New York can can compete not just in New York City but you know in places Democrats City but you know in places Democrats City but you know in places Democrats used to win like Indiana and North used to win like Indiana and North used to win like Indiana and North Dakota. To me there two things are kind Dakota. To me there two things are kind Dakota. To me there two things are kind of true. One, there is a national brand of true. One, there is a national brand of true. One, there is a national brand problem that is undeniable. problem that is undeniable. problem that is undeniable. To me, that national brand problem does To me, that national brand problem does To me, that national brand problem does not come from more liberal social not come from more liberal social not come from more liberal social perspectives from representatives in perspectives from representatives in perspectives from representatives in deep blue places. It comes from a deep blue places. It comes from a deep blue places. It comes from a tangible feeling the Democratic party is tangible feeling the Democratic party is tangible feeling the Democratic party is out of touch with the things that voters out of touch with the things that voters out of touch with the things that voters care about. And if you, you know, look care about. And if you, you know, look care about. And if you, you know, look at polling, Bernie Sanders is more at polling, Bernie Sanders is more at polling, Bernie Sanders is more popular than Chuck Schumer. And there's popular than Chuck Schumer. And there's popular than Chuck Schumer. And there's it is a disdain of kind of the elites it is a disdain of kind of the elites it is a disdain of kind of the elites and the powerful that I think fuels the and the powerful that I think fuels the and the powerful that I think fuels the democratic brand issue and that is what democratic brand issue and that is what democratic brand issue and that is what we need to address to overcome that. Um we need to address to overcome that. Um we need to address to overcome that. Um I think the other component is Democrats I think the other component is Democrats I think the other component is Democrats have an eat their own component that have an eat their own component that have an eat their own component that fuels these flames. you know, so like fuels these flames. you know, so like fuels these flames. you know, so like you see some of these candidates win and you see some of these candidates win and you see some of these candidates win and instead of us wrapping our arms around instead of us wrapping our arms around instead of us wrapping our arms around them as a party, instead of it being them as a party, instead of it being them as a party, instead of it being like, look, we disagree with their like, look, we disagree with their like, look, we disagree with their positions on A, B, and C, but what we're positions on A, B, and C, but what we're positions on A, B, and C, but what we're all aligned on is that they're, you all aligned on is that they're, you all aligned on is that they're, you know, we should be spending our taxpayer know, we should be spending our taxpayer know, we should be spending our taxpayer dollars on babies, not bombs. We we all dollars on babies, not bombs. We we all dollars on babies, not bombs. We we all agree is that we need stronger unions to agree is that we need stronger unions to agree is that we need stronger unions to be able to lift up working people. We be able to lift up working people. We be able to lift up working people. We need There's like a, yeah, they're a need There's like a, yeah, they're a need There's like a, yeah, they're a radical. That's not my party.

radical. That's not my party. radical. That's not my party. And it's like, well, And it's like, well, And it's like, well, >> are you so friendly to the establishment >> are you so friendly to the establishment >> are you so friendly to the establishment Democrats in the way that you're asking Democrats in the way that you're asking Democrats in the way that you're asking they be friendly to you? they be friendly to you? they be friendly to you? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um, I think that they are not I think >> Um, I think that they are not I think >> Um, I think that they are not I think the people who I'm critical of often the people who I'm critical of often the people who I'm critical of often times are not engaging in good faith the times are not engaging in good faith the times are not engaging in good faith the way that they're critical of our like I way that they're critical of our like I way that they're critical of our like I don't think I think that when their don't think I think that when their don't think I think that when their positions are compromised because of the positions are compromised because of the positions are compromised because of the money they take and the people they're money they take and the people they're money they take and the people they're answering to and that that is what is answering to and that that is what is answering to and that that is what is hurting the brand and then they have the hurting the brand and then they have the hurting the brand and then they have the audacity to throw other people under the audacity to throw other people under the audacity to throw other people under the bus for it. It's bad faith and it's the bus for it. It's bad faith and it's the bus for it. It's bad faith and it's the problem. I problem. I problem. I >> I I'm just saying and I don't actually >> I I'm just saying and I don't actually >> I I'm just saying and I don't actually have I'm a big tent party guy. I've done have I'm a big tent party guy. I've done have I'm a big tent party guy. I've done a lot of work on this and and I think a lot of work on this and and I think a lot of work on this and and I think I've proven this out, but I am just I've proven this out, but I am just I've proven this out, but I am just saying that sometimes I I find that both saying that sometimes I I find that both saying that sometimes I I find that both sides feel the other one that that sides feel the other one that that sides feel the other one that that they're willing to play nice and the they're willing to play nice and the they're willing to play nice and the other one isn't. It's like you're the other one isn't. It's like you're the other one isn't. It's like you're the way I would describe what you are saying way I would describe what you are saying way I would describe what you are saying to me here is the Democratic like the to me here is the Democratic like the to me here is the Democratic like the Democratic party to the extent such a Democratic party to the extent such a Democratic party to the extent such a thing exists but the sort of elites of thing exists but the sort of elites of thing exists but the sort of elites of it should be more embracing of uh Clare it should be more embracing of uh Clare it should be more embracing of uh Clare Valdez Valdez Valdez um and should recognize that even if um and should recognize that even if um and should recognize that even if they have disagreements with her you they have disagreements with her you they have disagreements with her you know everybody's kind of on the same know everybody's kind of on the same know everybody's kind of on the same side um you know and you're like look side um you know and you're like look side um you know and you're like look the problem with them is that they're the problem with them is that they're the problem with them is that they're corrupt [laughter] corrupt [laughter] corrupt [laughter] and and I think they might you know not and and I think they might you know not and and I think they might you know not see that as such a friendly see that as such a friendly see that as such a friendly way to frame the the work they've been way to frame the the work they've been way to frame the the work they've been doing to say try to win a majority.

doing to say try to win a majority. doing to say try to win a majority. >> I I mean I >> I I mean I >> I I mean I >> I'm not even saying they're not corrupt, >> I'm not even saying they're not corrupt, >> I'm not even saying they're not corrupt, but but but >> yeah, I I think they're two different >> yeah, I I think they're two different >> yeah, I I think they're two different lanes lanes lanes >> and and and I'll just say that this is >> and and and I'll just say that this is >> and and and I'll just say that this is like actually one of the critiques I've like actually one of the critiques I've like actually one of the critiques I've heard um of you a fight of it's like heard um of you a fight of it's like heard um of you a fight of it's like you'll say they're corrupt and then it's you'll say they're corrupt and then it's you'll say they're corrupt and then it's like you know I actually like Tom Star like you know I actually like Tom Star like you know I actually like Tom Star quite a bit quite a bit quite a bit >> but you know then you have it's like as >> but you know then you have it's like as >> but you know then you have it's like as long as you're working with the right long as you're working with the right long as you're working with the right billionaires it's fine, right? as long billionaires it's fine, right? as long billionaires it's fine, right? as long as you are um working with the right as you are um working with the right as you are um working with the right more establishment candidates like more establishment candidates like more establishment candidates like Michael Asher in New York 12, which I Michael Asher in New York 12, which I Michael Asher in New York 12, which I think you were a little bit involved in think you were a little bit involved in think you were a little bit involved in that race, it's fine that that there's a that race, it's fine that that there's a that race, it's fine that that there's a as long that anybody's fine as long as as long that anybody's fine as long as as long that anybody's fine as long as they're on our side and that, you know, they're on our side and that, you know, they're on our side and that, you know, if they're on the other side, then if they're on the other side, then if they're on the other side, then they're, you know, possibly a corrupt they're, you know, possibly a corrupt they're, you know, possibly a corrupt traitor of the people. traitor of the people. traitor of the people. >> I mean, what I'd say about that spectrum >> I mean, what I'd say about that spectrum >> I mean, what I'd say about that spectrum of candidates, none of them take money of candidates, none of them take money of candidates, none of them take money from lobbyists. None of them from lobbyists. None of them from lobbyists. None of them >> Tom is a billionaire. He doesn't need >> Tom is a billionaire. He doesn't need >> Tom is a billionaire. He doesn't need to. to. to. >> None of them take money from corporate >> None of them take money from corporate >> None of them take money from corporate packs. All of them have a deep belief in packs. All of them have a deep belief in packs. All of them have a deep belief in government's role and what it should do. government's role and what it should do. government's role and what it should do. And like I I think we should give a ton And like I I think we should give a ton And like I I think we should give a ton of leeway for people running in Trump of leeway for people running in Trump of leeway for people running in Trump plus 20 places. What doesn't feel like plus 20 places. What doesn't feel like plus 20 places. What doesn't feel like it quite corresponds is a lot of the it quite corresponds is a lot of the it quite corresponds is a lot of the people who are like the harshest critics people who are like the harshest critics people who are like the harshest critics are actually not running in those Trump are actually not running in those Trump are actually not running in those Trump plus 20 places. Like you hear Roy Cooper plus 20 places. Like you hear Roy Cooper plus 20 places. Like you hear Roy Cooper and shared Brown punching left a whole and shared Brown punching left a whole and shared Brown punching left a whole lot less than you hear like you know the lot less than you hear like you know the lot less than you hear like you know the frequenters of certain cable news frequenters of certain cable news frequenters of certain cable news circuits who are just members of circuits who are just members of circuits who are just members of Congress and like D plus 10 seats or Congress and like D plus 10 seats or Congress and like D plus 10 seats or something you so it actually doesn't if something you so it actually doesn't if something you so it actually doesn't if you look at the people who really have you look at the people who really have you look at the people who really have proven records of overperformance it's proven records of overperformance it's proven records of overperformance it's not the tactic they're taking that's not

not the tactic they're taking that's not not the tactic they're taking that's not to say they're like in lock step with to say they're like in lock step with to say they're like in lock step with the party at large and everything but the party at large and everything but the party at large and everything but they're not reaching those they're not reaching those they're not reaching those overperformances overperformances overperformances by by by just piling on to the left. They're just just piling on to the left. They're just just piling on to the left. They're just carving out unique things to their carving out unique things to their carving out unique things to their places. places. places. >> So, I want to loop back to Platiner here >> So, I want to loop back to Platiner here >> So, I want to loop back to Platiner here at the end. One of the things I thought at the end. One of the things I thought at the end. One of the things I thought was just most interesting about the was just most interesting about the was just most interesting about the Platiner story was that he was recruited Platiner story was that he was recruited Platiner story was that he was recruited that that you all went out and found a that that you all went out and found a that that you all went out and found a candidate you thought would fit Maine. candidate you thought would fit Maine. candidate you thought would fit Maine. And to a large extent, you were right. And to a large extent, you were right. And to a large extent, you were right. Now, it fell apart at the end. [gasps] Now, it fell apart at the end. [gasps] Now, it fell apart at the end. [gasps] But that sense that there are different But that sense that there are different But that sense that there are different kinds of candidates out there who could kinds of candidates out there who could kinds of candidates out there who could work in this moment, I don't think work in this moment, I don't think work in this moment, I don't think that's something that people should that's something that people should that's something that people should throw overboard. And so, sort of my throw overboard. And so, sort of my throw overboard. And so, sort of my question for you and honestly for sort question for you and honestly for sort question for you and honestly for sort of like others who might want to learn of like others who might want to learn of like others who might want to learn from what you all at least were trying from what you all at least were trying from what you all at least were trying to do there is what have you learned to do there is what have you learned to do there is what have you learned both for good and bad about how to find both for good and bad about how to find both for good and bad about how to find candidates? Right? If if you want to say candidates? Right? If if you want to say candidates? Right? If if you want to say the Democratic party needs to recruit a the Democratic party needs to recruit a the Democratic party needs to recruit a different kind of person to run, but different kind of person to run, but different kind of person to run, but also you want to take seriously that also you want to take seriously that also you want to take seriously that that people who have not been in that people who have not been in that people who have not been in politics and have not been aggressively politics and have not been aggressively politics and have not been aggressively vetted in politics might come with more vetted in politics might come with more vetted in politics might come with more downside risk.

downside risk. downside risk. What would be your what would be your What would be your what would be your What would be your what would be your process next time? process next time? process next time? I think that there is a deep deep hunger I think that there is a deep deep hunger I think that there is a deep deep hunger for a different kind of politics. There for a different kind of politics. There for a different kind of politics. There is a deep deep frustration with the is a deep deep frustration with the is a deep deep frustration with the status quo and what we're seeing right status quo and what we're seeing right status quo and what we're seeing right now is not a democracy the way the now is not a democracy the way the now is not a democracy the way the founders intended it. You know, it was founders intended it. You know, it was founders intended it. You know, it was supposed to be something that looked supposed to be something that looked supposed to be something that looked more like a farmer going to serve their more like a farmer going to serve their more like a farmer going to serve their two terms than going home and a small two terms than going home and a small two terms than going home and a small business owner going to serve their two business owner going to serve their two business owner going to serve their two terms and coming home. And it was, you terms and coming home. And it was, you terms and coming home. And it was, you know, the idea of it being almost know, the idea of it being almost know, the idea of it being almost a cathedral representative of the fabric a cathedral representative of the fabric a cathedral representative of the fabric of America. And we are so far from that. of America. And we are so far from that. of America. And we are so far from that. And I think that is why we have so many And I think that is why we have so many And I think that is why we have so many of the problems we have. Only 2% of of the problems we have. Only 2% of of the problems we have. Only 2% of Congress is from the working class. I Congress is from the working class. I Congress is from the working class. I think there are many things that are think there are many things that are think there are many things that are devastating about all of this. But one devastating about all of this. But one devastating about all of this. But one of the many is the degree in which of the many is the degree in which of the many is the degree in which people have had so much put so much hope people have had so much put so much hope people have had so much put so much hope and faith into this and that it people and faith into this and that it people and faith into this and that it people who' kind of written politics all felt who' kind of written politics all felt who' kind of written politics all felt inspired again. And I think when we do inspired again. And I think when we do inspired again. And I think when we do that, we're asking for so much for that, we're asking for so much for that, we're asking for so much for people to believe that maybe their lives people to believe that maybe their lives people to believe that maybe their lives can actually get better. Maybe politics can actually get better. Maybe politics can actually get better. Maybe politics can actually be a tool for good.

can actually be a tool for good. can actually be a tool for good. We can't let them down. And that's going We can't let them down. And that's going We can't let them down. And that's going to mean different standards. That's to mean different standards. That's to mean different standards. That's going to mean a far more robust vetting going to mean a far more robust vetting going to mean a far more robust vetting process. That's going to mean, I think, process. That's going to mean, I think, process. That's going to mean, I think, bring in more partners and larger bring in more partners and larger bring in more partners and larger conversations. But I think there there's conversations. But I think there there's conversations. But I think there there's too much at stake to walk away. And too much at stake to walk away. And too much at stake to walk away. And things are so clearly not working the things are so clearly not working the things are so clearly not working the way they are right now. [snorts] Um way they are right now. [snorts] Um way they are right now. [snorts] Um we we we need to find a way to bring we we we need to find a way to bring we we we need to find a way to bring more people in. more people in. more people in. >> And then I'll ask our final question. >> And then I'll ask our final question. >> And then I'll ask our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to What are three books you'd recommend to What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? the audience? the audience? >> Three books. Um, I'll do uh Life and >> Three books. Um, I'll do uh Life and >> Three books. Um, I'll do uh Life and Fate by Vaseli Gman. A really, I think, Fate by Vaseli Gman. A really, I think, Fate by Vaseli Gman. A really, I think, stunning kind of human portrayal um of stunning kind of human portrayal um of stunning kind of human portrayal um of the ramifications of the Holocaust in the ramifications of the Holocaust in the ramifications of the Holocaust in that entire era. Um, Shame by McKenna that entire era. Um, Shame by McKenna that entire era. Um, Shame by McKenna Goodman, a really, I think, beautiful Goodman, a really, I think, beautiful Goodman, a really, I think, beautiful book of of book of of book of of uh kind of the friction of isolation and uh kind of the friction of isolation and uh kind of the friction of isolation and dreams and anxiety. And I think in some dreams and anxiety. And I think in some dreams and anxiety. And I think in some way it's not at all a political book but way it's not at all a political book but way it's not at all a political book but feels political in the way of the feels political in the way of the feels political in the way of the conversation we're having of I think the conversation we're having of I think the conversation we're having of I think the results of modern society on people. Um results of modern society on people. Um results of modern society on people. Um and then um I have not finished it yet and then um I have not finished it yet and then um I have not finished it yet but I'm currently reading uh the fourth but I'm currently reading uh the fourth but I'm currently reading uh the fourth branch by Daniel Squadron and very much branch by Daniel Squadron and very much branch by Daniel Squadron and very much enjoying that and I think it's a really enjoying that and I think it's a really enjoying that and I think it's a really astute um observation of where political astute um observation of where political astute um observation of where political power is and how we can kind of shape a power is and how we can kind of shape a power is and how we can kind of shape a government that's on a day-to-day basis government that's on a day-to-day basis government that's on a day-to-day basis improving people's lives.

improving people's lives. improving people's lives. >> Morris Gats, thank you very much. >> Morris Gats, thank you very much. >> Morris Gats, thank you very much. >> Thanks for having me. Heat. Heat. >> Thanks for having me. Heat. Heat. >> Thanks for having me. Heat. Heat. [music]