A Radical Vision for Israelis and Palestinians | The Ezra Klein Show

So, I've been reluctant on the show to So, I've been reluctant on the show to talk too much about imagined solutions talk too much about imagined solutions talk too much about imagined solutions for the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I for the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I for the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I don't think any of the underlying don't think any of the underlying don't think any of the underlying conditions for political solution are conditions for political solution are conditions for political solution are present. present. present. >> 19 new settlements in the occupied West >> 19 new settlements in the occupied West >> 19 new settlements in the occupied West Bank. Bank. Bank. >> More than 81% of Gaza's buildings are at >> More than 81% of Gaza's buildings are at >> More than 81% of Gaza's buildings are at least partially damaged. least partially damaged. least partially damaged. >> So many other Palestinian families are >> So many other Palestinian families are >> So many other Palestinian families are living [music] with the threat of living [music] with the threat of living [music] with the threat of demolition. demolition. demolition. >> We're in a pre-olutionary space. And I >> We're in a pre-olutionary space. And I >> We're in a pre-olutionary space. And I worry about it as a form of escapism. worry about it as a form of escapism. worry about it as a form of escapism. [music] It's more comfortable to debate [music] It's more comfortable to debate [music] It's more comfortable to debate two-state models or one-state imaginings two-state models or one-state imaginings two-state models or one-state imaginings rather than confront the realities of rather than confront the realities of rather than confront the realities of what is happening right now. But the what is happening right now. But the what is happening right now. But the other problem, the other reason I I have other problem, the other reason I I have other problem, the other reason I I have kind of backed off of these kind of backed off of these kind of backed off of these conversations is that the old solutions conversations is that the old solutions conversations is that the old solutions don't fit the present reality. I don't don't fit the present reality. I don't don't fit the present reality. I don't see how a two-state solution is still see how a two-state solution is still see how a two-state solution is still possible [music] given the number and possible [music] given the number and possible [music] given the number and size of Jewish settlements in the West size of Jewish settlements in the West size of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. They're not going away. [music] or Bank. They're not going away. [music] or Bank. They're not going away. [music] or the insistence on a right of return for the insistence on a right of return for the insistence on a right of return for Palestinians. I don't think a one-state Palestinians. I don't think a one-state Palestinians. I don't think a one-state solution is plausible or likely. The solution is plausible or likely. The solution is plausible or likely. The Jewish people in Israel and around it, Jewish people in Israel and around it, Jewish people in Israel and around it, they want self-determination and they want self-determination and they want self-determination and sovereignty. So too do the Palestinians.

sovereignty. So too do the Palestinians. sovereignty. So too do the Palestinians. Neither side, given their history, is Neither side, given their history, is Neither side, given their history, is going to give the other willingly that going to give the other willingly that going to give the other willingly that kind of power. But a number of people, kind of power. But a number of people, kind of power. But a number of people, people I trust, have written to me people I trust, have written to me people I trust, have written to me saying, I should look at the Landforall saying, I should look at the Landforall saying, I should look at the Landforall plan. Land for All was founded in 2012 plan. Land for All was founded in 2012 plan. Land for All was founded in 2012 by a group of Israelis and Palestinians. by a group of Israelis and Palestinians. by a group of Israelis and Palestinians. And it's attempting something different, And it's attempting something different, And it's attempting something different, something I find in some ways beautiful. something I find in some ways beautiful. something I find in some ways beautiful. Not a two-state model of separation, not Not a two-state model of separation, not Not a two-state model of separation, not a one-state model of unification, but a one-state model of unification, but a one-state model of unification, but this confederation model that centers this confederation model that centers this confederation model that centers both people's connections to the land both people's connections to the land both people's connections to the land and tries to combine the free movement and tries to combine the free movement and tries to combine the free movement of people with separated political of people with separated political of people with separated political entities. In this model, you would have entities. In this model, you would have entities. In this model, you would have an Israel and a Palestine. [music] There an Israel and a Palestine. [music] There an Israel and a Palestine. [music] There would be free movement, but political would be free movement, but political would be free movement, but political separation. The borders would be open, separation. The borders would be open, separation. The borders would be open, but [music] they say hopefully secure. but [music] they say hopefully secure. but [music] they say hopefully secure. There's a lot to unpack about all this. There's a lot to unpack about all this. There's a lot to unpack about all this. I have a lot of questions about it. I I have a lot of questions about it. I I have a lot of questions about it. I would describe my own thinking [music] would describe my own thinking [music] would describe my own thinking [music] here as intrigued, not convinced. But I here as intrigued, not convinced. But I here as intrigued, not convinced. But I do think it is worth considering a new do think it is worth considering a new do think it is worth considering a new political vision, even I think we're far political vision, even I think we're far political vision, even I think we're far from the conditions that might make one from the conditions that might make one from the conditions that might make one possible. I mean, if you don't have any possible. I mean, if you don't have any possible. I mean, if you don't have any [music] idea of where you're going, how [music] idea of where you're going, how [music] idea of where you're going, how do you get there? Ruah Hardal is a do you get there? Ruah Hardal is a do you get there? Ruah Hardal is a Palestinian citizen of Israel who Palestinian citizen of Israel who Palestinian citizen of Israel who received her doctorate in political received her doctorate in political received her doctorate in political science from the University of Hanover science from the University of Hanover science from the University of Hanover in Germany. My Pundak is an Israeli in Germany. My Pundak is an Israeli in Germany. My Pundak is an Israeli lawyer, activist, and social lawyer, activist, and social lawyer, activist, and social entrepreneur. Her father Ron Pundock was entrepreneur. Her father Ron Pundock was entrepreneur. Her father Ron Pundock was an Israeli historian who played an an Israeli historian who played an an Israeli historian who played an important role in the Oso peace process important role in the Oso peace process important role in the Oso peace process in the 1990s. They're [music] the in the 1990s. They're [music] the in the 1990s. They're [music] the co-directors of land for all. And so I co-directors of land for all. And so I co-directors of land for all. And so I wanted to ask them both about the plan wanted to ask them both about the plan wanted to ask them both about the plan but also about the politics and [music] but also about the politics and [music] but also about the politics and [music] questions and social forces that have questions and social forces that have questions and social forces that have undermined every other plan. As always,

undermined every other plan. As always, undermined every other plan. As always, my email esraclans show my times.com. Rua hardall my pundock, welcome to the Rua hardall my pundock, welcome to the show. show. show. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> So, I think that people listening are >> So, I think that people listening are >> So, I think that people listening are familiar with the two-state solution familiar with the two-state solution familiar with the two-state solution concept uh an Israel and a Palestine concept uh an Israel and a Palestine concept uh an Israel and a Palestine separated and side by side. People have separated and side by side. People have separated and side by side. People have heard ideas for a single state where you heard ideas for a single state where you heard ideas for a single state where you would have uh people throughout the would have uh people throughout the would have uh people throughout the territory, throughout the land all territory, throughout the land all territory, throughout the land all voting within the same political system. voting within the same political system. voting within the same political system. I don't think that they tend to be as I don't think that they tend to be as I don't think that they tend to be as familiar with what you're offering this familiar with what you're offering this familiar with what you're offering this confederation model. So Mai, let me confederation model. So Mai, let me confederation model. So Mai, let me begin with you. How does this differ begin with you. How does this differ begin with you. How does this differ from the two-state solution that has from the two-state solution that has from the two-state solution that has been pursued for so long? So first of been pursued for so long? So first of been pursued for so long? So first of all let me say we are offering what we all let me say we are offering what we all let me say we are offering what we call a new vision but in that new vision call a new vision but in that new vision call a new vision but in that new vision it is still based on two sovereign it is still based on two sovereign it is still based on two sovereign independent states right Israel and independent states right Israel and independent states right Israel and Palestine [sighs and gasps] Palestine [sighs and gasps] Palestine [sighs and gasps] the two-state solution the classic the two-state solution the classic the two-state solution the classic version of it was based on a paradigm of version of it was based on a paradigm of version of it was based on a paradigm of segregation and separation segregation and separation segregation and separation and we are moving away from that and and we are moving away from that and and we are moving away from that and offering a model that is based not on offering a model that is based not on offering a model that is based not on the zero sum game but rather on the zero sum game but rather on the zero sum game but rather on acknowledging two very important acknowledging two very important acknowledging two very important components of the conflict. Number one, components of the conflict. Number one, components of the conflict. Number one, both Israelis and Palestinians have an both Israelis and Palestinians have an both Israelis and Palestinians have an immense psychological, social connection

immense psychological, social connection immense psychological, social connection and sense of belonging to the entire and sense of belonging to the entire and sense of belonging to the entire homeland from the river to the sea. homeland from the river to the sea. homeland from the river to the sea. That's a fact. That's a fact. That's a fact. Number two, the intertwined reality on Number two, the intertwined reality on Number two, the intertwined reality on the ground. Meaning that today Israel the ground. Meaning that today Israel the ground. Meaning that today Israel Palestine in a way is already shared. Palestine in a way is already shared. Palestine in a way is already shared. The intertwined reality is everywhere we The intertwined reality is everywhere we The intertwined reality is everywhere we look. And so the model says yes look. And so the model says yes look. And so the model says yes sovereignity yes nation states yes sovereignity yes nation states yes sovereignity yes nation states yes identity yes borders and there's another identity yes borders and there's another identity yes borders and there's another layer to that of a shared mechanism of layer to that of a shared mechanism of layer to that of a shared mechanism of shared institutions that take care of shared institutions that take care of shared institutions that take care of things that have to be taken care of things that have to be taken care of things that have to be taken care of jointly. So there's a human rights court jointly. So there's a human rights court jointly. So there's a human rights court and there are cooperation around economy and there are cooperation around economy and there are cooperation around economy and there is you know climate challenges and there is you know climate challenges and there is you know climate challenges are dealt with together because you are dealt with together because you are dealt with together because you can't deal with these things separately can't deal with these things separately can't deal with these things separately but also because it's a mechanism to but also because it's a mechanism to but also because it's a mechanism to ensure a sustainable peace. So that that ensure a sustainable peace. So that that ensure a sustainable peace. So that that word shared is important in your vision word shared is important in your vision word shared is important in your vision and your father was one of the and your father was one of the and your father was one of the negotiators at Oslo, spent his life negotiators at Oslo, spent his life negotiators at Oslo, spent his life working on the two-state solution working on the two-state solution working on the two-state solution paradigm. And that paradigm is built on paradigm. And that paradigm is built on paradigm. And that paradigm is built on the idea of security through separation, the idea of security through separation, the idea of security through separation, at least on the Jewish side, that if we at least on the Jewish side, that if we at least on the Jewish side, that if we can just separate, everybody can live in can just separate, everybody can live in can just separate, everybody can live in peace, everybody can leave each other peace, everybody can leave each other peace, everybody can leave each other alone.

alone. alone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What led you to move away from that What led you to move away from that What led you to move away from that vision and and towards this idea that vision and and towards this idea that vision and and towards this idea that peace doesn't come through separation. peace doesn't come through separation. peace doesn't come through separation. It comes through a shared set of It comes through a shared set of It comes through a shared set of institutions and interests. institutions and interests. institutions and interests. >> Yeah. [sighs and gasps] >> Yeah. [sighs and gasps] >> Yeah. [sighs and gasps] Well, Well, Well, I would say two main things. The first I would say two main things. The first I would say two main things. The first one was that I found myself um one was that I found myself um one was that I found myself um advocating for the two-state solution advocating for the two-state solution advocating for the two-state solution for many many years. I was um doing much for many many years. I was um doing much for many many years. I was um doing much more anti-occupation work. I wasn't more anti-occupation work. I wasn't more anti-occupation work. I wasn't really interested in solutions. I kind really interested in solutions. I kind really interested in solutions. I kind of we kept that separate um from each of we kept that separate um from each of we kept that separate um from each other. But other. But other. But at a certain point and this was um after at a certain point and this was um after at a certain point and this was um after my father passed away and I think that I my father passed away and I think that I my father passed away and I think that I you know that was part of my reckoning you know that was part of my reckoning you know that was part of my reckoning process of of grief you know of just process of of grief you know of just process of of grief you know of just coming to terms with the fact that I've coming to terms with the fact that I've coming to terms with the fact that I've been fighting for the two-state solution been fighting for the two-state solution been fighting for the two-state solution but at a certain point I started feeling but at a certain point I started feeling but at a certain point I started feeling that this model is crumbling beneath my that this model is crumbling beneath my that this model is crumbling beneath my between my fingers and I can't gra I between my fingers and I can't gra I between my fingers and I can't gra I don't believe in it anymore. The reality don't believe in it anymore. The reality don't believe in it anymore. The reality is telling me something else. Meeting is telling me something else. Meeting is telling me something else. Meeting Palestinian friends are telling me Palestinian friends are telling me Palestinian friends are telling me something else. Meeting the something else. Meeting the something else. Meeting the international community, I'm learning international community, I'm learning international community, I'm learning something else. Be living in Israel, I'm something else. Be living in Israel, I'm something else. Be living in Israel, I'm learning something else. And so I'm, you learning something else. And so I'm, you learning something else. And so I'm, you know, there advocating for the two-state know, there advocating for the two-state know, there advocating for the two-state solutions as an activist, but everywhere solutions as an activist, but everywhere solutions as an activist, but everywhere I'm hearing the two-state solutions I'm hearing the two-state solutions I'm hearing the two-state solutions dead. It's impossible.

dead. It's impossible. dead. It's impossible. And at the same time in Israel, this And at the same time in Israel, this And at the same time in Israel, this idea of peace, of negotiations, of idea of peace, of negotiations, of idea of peace, of negotiations, of two-state solution is becoming not two-state solution is becoming not two-state solution is becoming not relevant in the public discourse. Like relevant in the public discourse. Like relevant in the public discourse. Like there is no conversation about this. And there is no conversation about this. And there is no conversation about this. And so in 2018, I had my first son and we so in 2018, I had my first son and we so in 2018, I had my first son and we were living a couple of years in the were living a couple of years in the were living a couple of years in the states and coming back to Israel. Um, no states and coming back to Israel. Um, no states and coming back to Israel. Um, no one was talking about a future for my one was talking about a future for my one was talking about a future for my child, about security, about safety, child, about security, about safety, child, about security, about safety, about vision, about horizon, about hope. about vision, about horizon, about hope. about vision, about horizon, about hope. No one was telling me what we're No one was telling me what we're No one was telling me what we're fighting for. And that two-state fighting for. And that two-state fighting for. And that two-state solution has become an empty shell for solution has become an empty shell for solution has become an empty shell for people to talk about something, but not people to talk about something, but not people to talk about something, but not take any action. And by any action, take any action. And by any action, take any action. And by any action, we've been led to October 7th. by not we've been led to October 7th. by not we've been led to October 7th. by not presenting a viable vision and not presenting a viable vision and not presenting a viable vision and not organizing ourselves around that, we've organizing ourselves around that, we've organizing ourselves around that, we've been we've succumbed to this managing been we've succumbed to this managing been we've succumbed to this managing the conflict. Right? So, we'll talk the conflict. Right? So, we'll talk the conflict. Right? So, we'll talk about the two-state solution, but about the two-state solution, but about the two-state solution, but everyone knows it's not going to work.

everyone knows it's not going to work. everyone knows it's not going to work. And we find ourselves in international And we find ourselves in international And we find ourselves in international very very important forums with serious very very important forums with serious very very important forums with serious decision makers who say two-state decision makers who say two-state decision makers who say two-state solution, we know it's never going to solution, we know it's never going to solution, we know it's never going to happen. happen. happen. So in a way for me I was I was taking So in a way for me I was I was taking So in a way for me I was I was taking the life of my children into my own the life of my children into my own the life of my children into my own hands. I was like okay that's just not hands. I was like okay that's just not hands. I was like okay that's just not good enough. We have to reimagine good enough. We have to reimagine good enough. We have to reimagine a two-state solution that can work or a a two-state solution that can work or a a two-state solution that can work or a new vision that will actually new vision that will actually new vision that will actually be able to be able to be able to be pragmatic and practical work but also be pragmatic and practical work but also be pragmatic and practical work but also organize and excite Palestinians and organize and excite Palestinians and organize and excite Palestinians and Israelis. And I'll just say one more Israelis. And I'll just say one more Israelis. And I'll just say one more thing about that kind of transformation. thing about that kind of transformation. thing about that kind of transformation. For me, coming from a human rights For me, coming from a human rights For me, coming from a human rights background, I wanted to be a human background, I wanted to be a human background, I wanted to be a human rights lawyer to end the occupation. Um, rights lawyer to end the occupation. Um, rights lawyer to end the occupation. Um, and I understand that sounds a little and I understand that sounds a little and I understand that sounds a little naive today. Uh, and I still think that naive today. Uh, and I still think that naive today. Uh, and I still think that Israelis who are doing that work are Israelis who are doing that work are Israelis who are doing that work are saints and and and this is the most saints and and and this is the most saints and and and this is the most important work to be done. But at the important work to be done. But at the important work to be done. But at the same time, we haven't politically seen same time, we haven't politically seen same time, we haven't politically seen Palestinians as equal politically.

Palestinians as equal politically. Palestinians as equal politically. we can maybe save them, we can control we can maybe save them, we can control we can maybe save them, we can control them. There's there's a dynamic of that them. There's there's a dynamic of that them. There's there's a dynamic of that power dynamic always underneath. power dynamic always underneath. power dynamic always underneath. And for me, the positionality of And for me, the positionality of And for me, the positionality of realizing realizing realizing on my my in my skin that until Rola and on my my in my skin that until Rola and on my my in my skin that until Rola and the Palestinian people are safe and the Palestinian people are safe and the Palestinian people are safe and free, we will never be free and free, we will never be free and free, we will never be free and liberated and safe either. Our security liberated and safe either. Our security liberated and safe either. Our security is dependent on each other. Rua, I know is dependent on each other. Rua, I know is dependent on each other. Rua, I know that you previously were a supporter of that you previously were a supporter of that you previously were a supporter of a one-state solution. Tell me about how a one-state solution. Tell me about how a one-state solution. Tell me about how you came to this idea and how your you came to this idea and how your you came to this idea and how your thinking evolved. thinking evolved. thinking evolved. >> I came to this idea because I started >> I came to this idea because I started >> I came to this idea because I started realizing two things. First of all, we realizing two things. First of all, we realizing two things. First of all, we have already a one-state reality or one have already a one-state reality or one have already a one-state reality or one state construction on the ground between state construction on the ground between state construction on the ground between the Jordan and the Sea. But you know the Jordan and the Sea. But you know the Jordan and the Sea. But you know under one regime and one power which is under one regime and one power which is under one regime and one power which is the Israeli one and the Palestinians the Israeli one and the Palestinians the Israeli one and the Palestinians live under daily domination and live under daily domination and live under daily domination and occupation and military control and occupation and military control and occupation and military control and apartheide. Needless to say in the last apartheide. Needless to say in the last apartheide. Needless to say in the last two and a half years ethnic cleansing two and a half years ethnic cleansing two and a half years ethnic cleansing and genocide um um and annexation of and genocide um um and annexation of and genocide um um and annexation of their tiny small part of of the land. I their tiny small part of of the land. I their tiny small part of of the land. I mean uh the Gaza Strip and uh and the mean uh the Gaza Strip and uh and the mean uh the Gaza Strip and uh and the West Bank. [gasps] West Bank. [gasps] West Bank. [gasps] I'm I'm not sure that even I'm I'm not sure that even I'm I'm not sure that even you [clears throat] the audience is you [clears throat] the audience is you [clears throat] the audience is understanding what's happening in the understanding what's happening in the understanding what's happening in the West Bank. People hear about you know West Bank. People hear about you know West Bank. People hear about you know having checkpoints. There is military

having checkpoints. There is military having checkpoints. There is military control control control [clears throat] uh terrorism and [clears throat] uh terrorism and [clears throat] uh terrorism and violence of of the settlers but violence of of the settlers but violence of of the settlers but the reality on the ground is is way the reality on the ground is is way the reality on the ground is is way worse. um the the immense of daily worse. um the the immense of daily worse. um the the immense of daily domination domination domination um and control of people's life in in um and control of people's life in in um and control of people's life in in the West Bank is just immense. I don't the West Bank is just immense. I don't the West Bank is just immense. I don't know if there is something know if there is something know if there is something similar or has been in in other places similar or has been in in other places similar or has been in in other places under other conflicts and because we are under other conflicts and because we are under other conflicts and because we are not speaking about you know uh very not speaking about you know uh very not speaking about you know uh very direct war. It's an ongoing longterm direct war. It's an ongoing longterm direct war. It's an ongoing longterm daily um atrocities and restrictions and daily um atrocities and restrictions and daily um atrocities and restrictions and humiliation of [snorts] of of people. humiliation of [snorts] of of people. humiliation of [snorts] of of people. So to start from this fact and reality So to start from this fact and reality So to start from this fact and reality on the ground, it will be hard [snorts] on the ground, it will be hard [snorts] on the ground, it will be hard [snorts] um for us to move especially now after um for us to move especially now after um for us to move especially now after what happened in the last 2 and a half what happened in the last 2 and a half what happened in the last 2 and a half years to to move immediately for uh um years to to move immediately for uh um years to to move immediately for uh um an equal one state reality where an equal one state reality where an equal one state reality where actually all Palestinians and all actually all Palestinians and all actually all Palestinians and all Israelis are equal uh in the same uh one Israelis are equal uh in the same uh one Israelis are equal uh in the same uh one state. The second point I claim from my state. The second point I claim from my state. The second point I claim from my research and observations that the research and observations that the research and observations that the majority of the Palestinians and the majority of the Palestinians and the majority of the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews on the ground in Israel Israeli Jews on the ground in Israel Israeli Jews on the ground in Israel Palestine are not in a postnational Palestine are not in a postnational Palestine are not in a postnational mindset the way I thought mindset the way I thought mindset the way I thought uh and the way that a lot of people here

uh and the way that a lot of people here uh and the way that a lot of people here think. the the sense of ethnational think. the the sense of ethnational think. the the sense of ethnational belonging and interests and national belonging and interests and national belonging and interests and national symbols and um the desire to have for symbols and um the desire to have for symbols and um the desire to have for each group its own political national each group its own political national each group its own political national entity is still very strong and we need entity is still very strong and we need entity is still very strong and we need to to acknowledge that and to respect to to acknowledge that and to respect to to acknowledge that and to respect that. that. that. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh the last few years have been staggering the last few years have been staggering the last few years have been staggering in their violence. You've used the word in their violence. You've used the word in their violence. You've used the word genocide here and domination genocide here and domination genocide here and domination and here you are also advocating for a and here you are also advocating for a and here you are also advocating for a plan that at its core would require plan that at its core would require plan that at its core would require people to treat each other with trust as people to treat each other with trust as people to treat each other with trust as equals um in a shared enterprise. It equals um in a shared enterprise. It equals um in a shared enterprise. It feels hard to not just imagine the plan feels hard to not just imagine the plan feels hard to not just imagine the plan but imagine the people who would engage but imagine the people who would engage but imagine the people who would engage in this plan. in this plan. in this plan. >> Yeah. So, this may seem like a simple >> Yeah. So, this may seem like a simple >> Yeah. So, this may seem like a simple question, but I think it's a it's an question, but I think it's a it's an question, but I think it's a it's an important one to to try to feel. Why are important one to to try to feel. Why are important one to to try to feel. Why are you not held back by the belief that you not held back by the belief that you not held back by the belief that this is impossible to solve?

this is impossible to solve? this is impossible to solve? >> Well, I think it's um >> Well, I think it's um >> Well, I think it's um it's very hard. It's very complicated. it's very hard. It's very complicated. it's very hard. It's very complicated. We are facing now a very We are facing now a very We are facing now a very um or maybe the ugliest phase of the um or maybe the ugliest phase of the um or maybe the ugliest phase of the history of of both people since October history of of both people since October history of of both people since October 7th. We are not ignoring all of that. 7th. We are not ignoring all of that. 7th. We are not ignoring all of that. I'm not ignoring that. We've been I'm not ignoring that. We've been I'm not ignoring that. We've been speaking a couple of days ago with uh speaking a couple of days ago with uh speaking a couple of days ago with uh some friends and and policy experts in some friends and and policy experts in some friends and and policy experts in in DC and one of them who is uh Egyptian in DC and one of them who is uh Egyptian in DC and one of them who is uh Egyptian Egyptian American. We've been speaking Egyptian American. We've been speaking Egyptian American. We've been speaking about Gaza and and he brought actually about Gaza and and he brought actually about Gaza and and he brought actually an Arabic word to describe what all of an Arabic word to describe what all of an Arabic word to describe what all of us feel and felt while watching the um the second Nakba, the genocide uh um the second Nakba, the genocide uh 24/7 on our screens, the word that 24/7 on our screens, the word that 24/7 on our screens, the word that doesn't exist um in in in the English doesn't exist um in in in the English doesn't exist um in in in the English language.

It's a combination of being angry and It's a combination of being angry and humiliation of your humanity and humiliation of your humanity and humiliation of your humanity and existence and who you are existence and who you are existence and who you are and and and with helpless that you you you cannot with helpless that you you you cannot with helpless that you you you cannot you you don't have any anything to do you you don't have any anything to do you you don't have any anything to do and um yeah um yeah um that's why Um, I'm I'm doing what I'm doing because if I'm I'm doing what I'm doing because if there is something to save there is something to save there is something to save in our souls as as Palestinians and if in our souls as as Palestinians and if in our souls as as Palestinians and if there is something to save in terms of there is something to save in terms of there is something to save in terms of dreaming about Palestine even in in part dreaming about Palestine even in in part dreaming about Palestine even in in part of historic Palestine, of historic Palestine, of historic Palestine, this is something that I'm committed to this is something that I'm committed to this is something that I'm committed to do after what happened in in Gaza. Gaza do after what happened in in Gaza. Gaza do after what happened in in Gaza. Gaza is gone is gone is gone and we are involved with a lot of people and we are involved with a lot of people and we are involved with a lot of people who are involved with what's going on in who are involved with what's going on in who are involved with what's going on in Gaza, the board of peace, the executive Gaza, the board of peace, the executive Gaza, the board of peace, the executive committee and so on and the many actors committee and so on and the many actors committee and so on and the many actors in the international community. [snorts] in the international community. [snorts] in the international community. [snorts] The amount of The amount of The amount of helpless helpless helpless and lack of orientation lack of orientation and ability to make decisions and to do and ability to make decisions and to do and ability to make decisions and to do things on the ground is just insane. And things on the ground is just insane. And things on the ground is just insane. And I don't want to see that

I don't want to see that I don't want to see that in the coming years when it comes to the in the coming years when it comes to the in the coming years when it comes to the whole Palestinian situation because what whole Palestinian situation because what whole Palestinian situation because what is threatened now since in in a very is threatened now since in in a very is threatened now since in in a very direct intensive way uh since October direct intensive way uh since October direct intensive way uh since October 7th is the collective political national 7th is the collective political national 7th is the collective political national being of the Palestinians in Palestine. being of the Palestinians in Palestine. being of the Palestinians in Palestine. And I'm doing this work in order to just And I'm doing this work in order to just And I'm doing this work in order to just maybe save what is to save there. If we maybe save what is to save there. If we maybe save what is to save there. If we don't offer um new arrangements, new don't offer um new arrangements, new don't offer um new arrangements, new political vision, if we don't see this political vision, if we don't see this political vision, if we don't see this uh very bad situation as an opportunity uh very bad situation as an opportunity uh very bad situation as an opportunity to start, I don't have any illusion. I to start, I don't have any illusion. I to start, I don't have any illusion. I cannot promise anybody that this cannot promise anybody that this cannot promise anybody that this solution or any other solution similar solution or any other solution similar solution or any other solution similar or different is going to be implemented or different is going to be implemented or different is going to be implemented tomorrow or next year or I don't know tomorrow or next year or I don't know tomorrow or next year or I don't know where when where when where when but history is not um static but history is not um static but history is not um static and we cannot know now when this opening and we cannot know now when this opening and we cannot know now when this opening is going to come. We Palestinians are is going to come. We Palestinians are is going to come. We Palestinians are not going to give up.

not going to give up. not going to give up. We are there and we insist to be there. We are there and we insist to be there. We are there and we insist to be there. This is our place and we are going to This is our place and we are going to This is our place and we are going to continue to struggle. continue to struggle. continue to struggle. >> Can I say something about the trust? I I >> Can I say something about the trust? I I >> Can I say something about the trust? I I think that's a very think that's a very think that's a very >> as an Israeli I think that's a an >> as an Israeli I think that's a an >> as an Israeli I think that's a an important question for important question for important question for for us to to deal with. for us to to deal with. for us to to deal with. What is the alternative? The alternative What is the alternative? The alternative What is the alternative? The alternative right now is either continuing in the right now is either continuing in the right now is either continuing in the footsteps of this government, which is footsteps of this government, which is footsteps of this government, which is to destroy the Palestinian peoplehood, to destroy the Palestinian peoplehood, to destroy the Palestinian peoplehood, or a fake status quo. I don't know if or a fake status quo. I don't know if or a fake status quo. I don't know if that would be the right term, but this that would be the right term, but this that would be the right term, but this belief that we can just not solve this belief that we can just not solve this belief that we can just not solve this conflict. conflict. conflict. And so, the first thing that we need to And so, the first thing that we need to And so, the first thing that we need to commit ourselves to is realizing that if commit ourselves to is realizing that if commit ourselves to is realizing that if we're not going to solve this conflict, we're not going to solve this conflict, we're not going to solve this conflict, it will solve us, right? That is what it will solve us, right? That is what it will solve us, right? That is what led us. led us. led us. >> What What does that mean? Because I >> What What does that mean? Because I >> What What does that mean? Because I mean, as you know better than me that mean, as you know better than me that mean, as you know better than me that most Israelis, the center of Israeli most Israelis, the center of Israeli most Israelis, the center of Israeli political opinion actually does not political opinion actually does not political opinion actually does not think there is no alternative. Like the think there is no alternative. Like the think there is no alternative. Like the alternative the alternative is the path alternative the alternative is the path alternative the alternative is the path they're on. The opposition party even in they're on. The opposition party even in they're on. The opposition party even in this election is not hugely different this election is not hugely different this election is not hugely different than Netanyahu on this. That the idea I than Netanyahu on this. That the idea I than Netanyahu on this. That the idea I think the idea as best I understand it think the idea as best I understand it think the idea as best I understand it is basically the alternative is is basically the alternative is is basically the alternative is >> there is Jewish Israeli security >> there is Jewish Israeli security >> there is Jewish Israeli security supremacy over the land.

supremacy over the land. supremacy over the land. >> Mh. and uh the conflict, so to speak, >> Mh. and uh the conflict, so to speak, >> Mh. and uh the conflict, so to speak, can be controlled and managed. They're can be controlled and managed. They're can be controlled and managed. They're not going to let their guard down the not going to let their guard down the not going to let their guard down the way they did uh before October 7th. way they did uh before October 7th. way they did uh before October 7th. There's going to be more settlement There's going to be more settlement There's going to be more settlement building. There's going to be more building. There's going to be more building. There's going to be more control. Israel controls 65% of Gaza control. Israel controls 65% of Gaza control. Israel controls 65% of Gaza now. now. now. >> Absolutely. This is absolutely true. >> Absolutely. This is absolutely true. >> Absolutely. This is absolutely true. >> To some people, this is not just an >> To some people, this is not just an >> To some people, this is not just an alternative. This is a pathway to alternative. This is a pathway to alternative. This is a pathway to realize, you know, quite ancient hopes. realize, you know, quite ancient hopes. realize, you know, quite ancient hopes. >> So when you're in conversation with >> So when you're in conversation with >> So when you're in conversation with that, that, that, >> Yeah. So that is all true and that we >> Yeah. So that is all true and that we >> Yeah. So that is all true and that we are seeing play out right now in Israel are seeing play out right now in Israel are seeing play out right now in Israel Palestine. This is this is the reality Palestine. This is this is the reality Palestine. This is this is the reality right this is [gasps and sighs] and my right this is [gasps and sighs] and my right this is [gasps and sighs] and my question to to you or to us to us question to to you or to us to us question to to you or to us to us Israelis is like has this ensured your Israelis is like has this ensured your Israelis is like has this ensured your safety and security? The answer is no. safety and security? The answer is no. safety and security? The answer is no. If you are messianic and you have dreams If you are messianic and you have dreams If you are messianic and you have dreams that are beyond life right that are that are beyond life right that are that are beyond life right that are about eternity that's a different about eternity that's a different about eternity that's a different timeline. But for people who are timeline. But for people who are timeline. But for people who are actually concerned with safety and actually concerned with safety and actually concerned with safety and security for their children and a better security for their children and a better security for their children and a better future and life, future and life, future and life, the current paradigm has not ensured our the current paradigm has not ensured our the current paradigm has not ensured our safety and security until this day, safety and security until this day, safety and security until this day, right? Like it's not only October 7th.

right? Like it's not only October 7th. right? Like it's not only October 7th. What about what's happening now with What about what's happening now with What about what's happening now with Israel re-entering Lebanon? What's Israel re-entering Lebanon? What's Israel re-entering Lebanon? What's happening with Iran? What's happening in happening with Iran? What's happening in happening with Iran? What's happening in the south? I mean, what what's happening the south? I mean, what what's happening the south? I mean, what what's happening in the West? There's no place that we in the West? There's no place that we in the West? There's no place that we actually feel safe right now. And I actually feel safe right now. And I actually feel safe right now. And I think that that's an important um think that that's an important um think that that's an important um realization that we have to say out loud realization that we have to say out loud realization that we have to say out loud and confront. We're not safe now. This and confront. We're not safe now. This and confront. We're not safe now. This has not given us safety. I'll give you a has not given us safety. I'll give you a has not given us safety. I'll give you a more concrete example in the place where more concrete example in the place where more concrete example in the place where we have seen the utmost um um commitment we have seen the utmost um um commitment we have seen the utmost um um commitment to segregation and separation, right? to segregation and separation, right? to segregation and separation, right? and the billiond dollar wall and and and the billiond dollar wall and and and the billiond dollar wall and and these mechanisms and all the IDF you these mechanisms and all the IDF you these mechanisms and all the IDF you know security measures and technology know security measures and technology know security measures and technology that is where all hell broke loose that is where all hell broke loose that is where all hell broke loose that's Gaza that's Gaza that's Gaza so when people say that big walls will so when people say that big walls will so when people say that big walls will ensure my safety I say no it won't ensure my safety I say no it won't ensure my safety I say no it won't my I live in Jaffa and there's a lot to my I live in Jaffa and there's a lot to my I live in Jaffa and there's a lot to say about the inequality of Palestinian say about the inequality of Palestinian say about the inequality of Palestinian citizens of Israel but the truth of the citizens of Israel but the truth of the citizens of Israel but the truth of the matter is that Palestinians who are matter is that Palestinians who are matter is that Palestinians who are living within Israel and have more living within Israel and have more living within Israel and have more rights, not equal rights at all.

rights, not equal rights at all. rights, not equal rights at all. That is where we're not slaughtering That is where we're not slaughtering That is where we're not slaughtering each other, right? That those are the each other, right? That those are the each other, right? That those are the kindergarten teachers of my baby. kindergarten teachers of my baby. kindergarten teachers of my baby. So, no one will convince me that So, no one will convince me that So, no one will convince me that security will be given to me or insured security will be given to me or insured security will be given to me or insured to me by bigger, more walls and more to me by bigger, more walls and more to me by bigger, more walls and more separation. That's number one. The other separation. That's number one. The other separation. That's number one. The other thing that I want to say about is is thing that I want to say about is is thing that I want to say about is is history. History shows us also in history. History shows us also in history. History shows us also in Israel. I think that Egypt is probably Israel. I think that Egypt is probably Israel. I think that Egypt is probably the big the the best example. Egypt the big the the best example. Egypt the big the the best example. Egypt after 1973 was considered Hitler. Saddat after 1973 was considered Hitler. Saddat after 1973 was considered Hitler. Saddat was considered Hitler and Egypt was was considered Hitler and Egypt was was considered Hitler and Egypt was considered the next biggest threat to considered the next biggest threat to considered the next biggest threat to Israel. And then 79 h you know we got to Israel. And then 79 h you know we got to Israel. And then 79 h you know we got to 79. There's a peace agreement and that 79. There's a peace agreement and that 79. There's a peace agreement and that today ensures my safety. Israelis go to, today ensures my safety. Israelis go to, today ensures my safety. Israelis go to, you know, take vacations in Sinai. And you know, take vacations in Sinai. And you know, take vacations in Sinai. And that's the safest uh uh border that I that's the safest uh uh border that I that's the safest uh uh border that I have as an Israeli. have as an Israeli. have as an Israeli. So, we have to flip the narrative So, we have to flip the narrative So, we have to flip the narrative based on history. The last thing that based on history. The last thing that based on history. The last thing that I'll say about this is that when you I'll say about this is that when you I'll say about this is that when you look at other conflicts around the world look at other conflicts around the world look at other conflicts around the world but also um in Israel Palestine but also um in Israel Palestine but also um in Israel Palestine before before before negotiations there's negotiations there's negotiations there's no belief that this can be solved. Once no belief that this can be solved. Once no belief that this can be solved. Once negotiations start suddenly the belief negotiations start suddenly the belief negotiations start suddenly the belief in public opinion rises. A month before in public opinion rises. A month before in public opinion rises. A month before the Berlin Wall fell people said it will the Berlin Wall fell people said it will the Berlin Wall fell people said it will never fall. A month before the Good never fall. A month before the Good never fall. A month before the Good Friday Agreement was signed people say Friday Agreement was signed people say Friday Agreement was signed people say it will never be solved. Well, guess it will never be solved. Well, guess it will never be solved. Well, guess what it was?

what it was? what it was? And when we need to get to that tipping And when we need to get to that tipping And when we need to get to that tipping point and we're doing the work on the point and we're doing the work on the point and we're doing the work on the ground, but once we get there and that ground, but once we get there and that ground, but once we get there and that moment will come, are we ready with a moment will come, are we ready with a moment will come, are we ready with a good pragmatic relevant solution? That good pragmatic relevant solution? That good pragmatic relevant solution? That is what we're here to do. is what we're here to do. is what we're here to do. >> One of the things I've been curious >> One of the things I've been curious >> One of the things I've been curious about how both of you see on in your about how both of you see on in your about how both of you see on in your respective parts of these societies respective parts of these societies respective parts of these societies is the role of the religious factions. is the role of the religious factions. is the role of the religious factions. Something that many people involved in Something that many people involved in Something that many people involved in previous negotiations have said to me is previous negotiations have said to me is previous negotiations have said to me is they feel that what they never knew how they feel that what they never knew how they feel that what they never knew how to approach was the people who were not to approach was the people who were not to approach was the people who were not just working off of the interests of just working off of the interests of just working off of the interests of today but to use the term you used uh on today but to use the term you used uh on today but to use the term you used uh on a more eternal timeline. a more eternal timeline. a more eternal timeline. And I mean these are significant And I mean these are significant And I mean these are significant factions in both societies. I mean right factions in both societies. I mean right factions in both societies. I mean right now the Netanyahu coalition is uh in a now the Netanyahu coalition is uh in a now the Netanyahu coalition is uh in a state of instability and fracture state of instability and fracture state of instability and fracture because it might lose ultraorththodox because it might lose ultraorththodox because it might lose ultraorththodox support. support. support. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How in this vision do you balance >> How in this vision do you balance >> How in this vision do you balance people whose people whose people whose belief is that there is a a divine right belief is that there is a a divine right belief is that there is a a divine right and rit to a certain outcome.

and rit to a certain outcome. and rit to a certain outcome. I think I think I think both national movements if we consider both national movements if we consider both national movements if we consider now for this uh 2 minutes Zionism to be now for this uh 2 minutes Zionism to be now for this uh 2 minutes Zionism to be a national movement and it is but not a national movement and it is but not a national movement and it is but not only only only >> you see how difficult partnership is >> you see how difficult partnership is >> you see how difficult partnership is right I mean this is a good example of right I mean this is a good example of right I mean this is a good example of just emphasizing how difficult this work just emphasizing how difficult this work just emphasizing how difficult this work is is is >> just by yeah I mean saying Zionism is is >> just by yeah I mean saying Zionism is is >> just by yeah I mean saying Zionism is is a national movement. I mean yes it is a national movement. I mean yes it is a national movement. I mean yes it is also also also >> yeah but also it Zionism has developed >> yeah but also it Zionism has developed >> yeah but also it Zionism has developed also to be to have another component also to be to have another component also to be to have another component which is actually uh constitute the which is actually uh constitute the which is actually uh constitute the major problem in Israel Palestine and major problem in Israel Palestine and major problem in Israel Palestine and for the Palestinian people which is the for the Palestinian people which is the for the Palestinian people which is the settler colonial uh aspects of of settler colonial uh aspects of of settler colonial uh aspects of of Zionism. So to to go back to the Zionism. So to to go back to the Zionism. So to to go back to the national aspects of Zionism, I think um national aspects of Zionism, I think um national aspects of Zionism, I think um that all of us Palestinians, Israeli that all of us Palestinians, Israeli that all of us Palestinians, Israeli Jews changed Jews changed Jews changed and that both societies uh developed to be much more uh developed to be much more conservative and religious. I think conservative and religious. I think conservative and religious. I think there is a tendency among Israelis, even there is a tendency among Israelis, even there is a tendency among Israelis, even secular um liberal [gasps] secular um liberal [gasps] secular um liberal [gasps] to use religion and to uh emphasize the to use religion and to uh emphasize the to use religion and to uh emphasize the role of religion and conservatism uh role of religion and conservatism uh role of religion and conservatism uh when it comes to imagining the future when it comes to imagining the future when it comes to imagining the future and speaking about Israel Palestine and speaking about Israel Palestine and speaking about Israel Palestine while on the Palestinian context less

while on the Palestinian context less while on the Palestinian context less um it's it's more about um the the um it's it's more about um the the um it's it's more about um the the importance. importance. importance. >> Can you defend that statement for me? I >> Can you defend that statement for me? I >> Can you defend that statement for me? I mean kamas is a very religious mean kamas is a very religious mean kamas is a very religious organization. Yeah. organization. Yeah. organization. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's part of Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's part of Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's part of an Islamic political Islamic uh an Islamic political Islamic uh an Islamic political Islamic uh >> Right. I understand that. But >> Right. I understand that. But >> Right. I understand that. But >> movement. Yeah. >> movement. Yeah. >> movement. Yeah. >> But what may maybe I can better >> But what may maybe I can better >> But what may maybe I can better understand what what what you're saying understand what what what you're saying understand what what what you're saying here. here. here. >> You're saying that there's a tendency >> You're saying that there's a tendency >> You're saying that there's a tendency for secular Israelis to overstate the for secular Israelis to overstate the for secular Israelis to overstate the role of religion as a barrier on either role of religion as a barrier on either role of religion as a barrier on either side. But it feels like it's quite real side. But it feels like it's quite real side. But it feels like it's quite real >> on both sides and and the Hamas is >> on both sides and and the Hamas is >> on both sides and and the Hamas is religiously informed religiously informed religiously informed >> that much of Israeli society is quite >> that much of Israeli society is quite >> that much of Israeli society is quite religiously informed. religiously informed. religiously informed. >> And you know to take these views >> And you know to take these views >> And you know to take these views sincerely sincerely sincerely they are not just based on a horse they are not just based on a horse they are not just based on a horse trading of interests around trading of interests around trading of interests around security and security and security and >> um prosperity in the moment. they're >> um prosperity in the moment. they're >> um prosperity in the moment. they're connected to connected to connected to questions that have uh that that are questions that have uh that that are questions that have uh that that are less vulnerable to transactional less vulnerable to transactional less vulnerable to transactional solutions.

solutions. solutions. >> Absolutely. I I agree with you. But I I >> Absolutely. I I agree with you. But I I >> Absolutely. I I agree with you. But I I was trying to um um to describe the was trying to um um to describe the was trying to um um to describe the development that we that that actually development that we that that actually development that we that that actually brought both of us Palestinians and brought both of us Palestinians and brought both of us Palestinians and Israelis to this uh situation. We we do Israelis to this uh situation. We we do Israelis to this uh situation. We we do not skip in our political vision all of not skip in our political vision all of not skip in our political vision all of these aspects and developments and we these aspects and developments and we these aspects and developments and we start from acknowledging not only start from acknowledging not only start from acknowledging not only international law and rights and you international law and rights and you international law and rights and you know all of these liberal approaches uh know all of these liberal approaches uh know all of these liberal approaches uh um and universal approaches but we start um and universal approaches but we start um and universal approaches but we start from the connection of both people to from the connection of both people to from the connection of both people to Israel Palestine as as part of their Israel Palestine as as part of their Israel Palestine as as part of their religious historical cultural and also religious historical cultural and also religious historical cultural and also political identity. So we we we we we political identity. So we we we we we political identity. So we we we we we know that it's important and that we the know that it's important and that we the know that it's important and that we the way we cannot avoid other lessons way we cannot avoid other lessons way we cannot avoid other lessons learned from um our history and history learned from um our history and history learned from um our history and history of negotiations and peace efforts. We of negotiations and peace efforts. We of negotiations and peace efforts. We cannot ignore also this very important cannot ignore also this very important cannot ignore also this very important component that describes our societies.

component that describes our societies. component that describes our societies. >> Yeah, I I absolutely agree. I I think >> Yeah, I I absolutely agree. I I think >> Yeah, I I absolutely agree. I I think that one of the lessons learned from that one of the lessons learned from that one of the lessons learned from Oslo as you said is to this is cannot be Oslo as you said is to this is cannot be Oslo as you said is to this is cannot be a liberal elite um intellectual secular a liberal elite um intellectual secular a liberal elite um intellectual secular solution. Israel and Palestine today are solution. Israel and Palestine today are solution. Israel and Palestine today are becoming more and more religious if becoming more and more religious if becoming more and more religious if anything more and more traditional less anything more and more traditional less anything more and more traditional less and less liberal both societies. So this and less liberal both societies. So this and less liberal both societies. So this is a very important question is a very important question is a very important question for me. One of the reasons why I joined for me. One of the reasons why I joined for me. One of the reasons why I joined a land for all was because I had to come a land for all was because I had to come a land for all was because I had to come to terms with my blind spot around this to terms with my blind spot around this to terms with my blind spot around this exact exact reality and looking within exact exact reality and looking within exact exact reality and looking within that and I think that said it so that and I think that said it so that and I think that said it so beautifully. beautifully. beautifully. We the the beginning the beginning of We the the beginning the beginning of We the the beginning the beginning of this solution is emotions. this solution is emotions. this solution is emotions. The very strong emotions that have also The very strong emotions that have also The very strong emotions that have also a religious connection right to the a religious connection right to the a religious connection right to the entire homeland. We all love this place entire homeland. We all love this place entire homeland. We all love this place literally to death, right? We love it so literally to death, right? We love it so literally to death, right? We love it so much. It's making us crazy. So I I would much. It's making us crazy. So I I would much. It's making us crazy. So I I would say that that's a really strong part of say that that's a really strong part of say that that's a really strong part of our work. And I would even say that one our work. And I would even say that one our work. And I would even say that one of the most beautiful moments in our of the most beautiful moments in our of the most beautiful moments in our events in Israel um is that when we have events in Israel um is that when we have events in Israel um is that when we have events, events, events, religious people come to our events and religious people come to our events and religious people come to our events and they say this is the first time we feel they say this is the first time we feel they say this is the first time we feel part of the peace camp. We don't feel part of the peace camp. We don't feel part of the peace camp. We don't feel that you've excluded us. We feel that we that you've excluded us. We feel that we that you've excluded us. We feel that we can be part of this. We can support can be part of this. We can support can be part of this. We can support this. And that's very reassuring right this. And that's very reassuring right this. And that's very reassuring right now.

now. now. >> So let's talk about what this vision >> So let's talk about what this vision >> So let's talk about what this vision actually calls for. I want to talk actually calls for. I want to talk actually calls for. I want to talk through the the dimensions of the plan through the the dimensions of the plan through the the dimensions of the plan and then also of course through some of and then also of course through some of and then also of course through some of the challenges or questions it it opens. the challenges or questions it it opens. the challenges or questions it it opens. But the first tenant in your paper is But the first tenant in your paper is But the first tenant in your paper is open borders. open borders. open borders. What do open borders mean in this What do open borders mean in this What do open borders mean in this context? Rula. context? Rula. context? Rula. >> Yeah. First of all, I I do want to see >> Yeah. First of all, I I do want to see >> Yeah. First of all, I I do want to see the day that Israel is going to define the day that Israel is going to define the day that Israel is going to define its uh its borders because you know we its uh its borders because you know we its uh its borders because you know we we we are not there now. uh even to we we are not there now. uh even to we we are not there now. uh even to speak about borders between Israel and speak about borders between Israel and speak about borders between Israel and Palestine it's Palestine it's Palestine it's sound imaginary now because sound imaginary now because sound imaginary now because Israel is still in the in the ideology Israel is still in the in the ideology Israel is still in the in the ideology of expansion in the whole Middle East of expansion in the whole Middle East of expansion in the whole Middle East and this is one of the problems by by and this is one of the problems by by and this is one of the problems by by the way with the Zionist ideology the way with the Zionist ideology the way with the Zionist ideology >> but your but your plan does go for >> but your but your plan does go for >> but your but your plan does go for >> we are speaking about gradually opening >> we are speaking about gradually opening >> we are speaking about gradually opening the borders between uh Israel and the borders between uh Israel and the borders between uh Israel and Palestine as two states we will have Palestine as two states we will have Palestine as two states we will have borders ers. But we want to be to have borders ers. But we want to be to have borders ers. But we want to be to have these borders open these borders open these borders open in order um first of all to implement in order um first of all to implement in order um first of all to implement and give the people um the the ability and give the people um the the ability and give the people um the the ability to practice what we started uh uh our to practice what we started uh uh our to practice what we started uh uh our conversation speaking about the conversation speaking about the conversation speaking about the connection to the entire homeland. For connection to the entire homeland. For connection to the entire homeland. For me, the whole space is going to be me, the whole space is going to be me, the whole space is going to be Palestine. It's been Palestine and it's Palestine. It's been Palestine and it's Palestine. It's been Palestine and it's going to continue to be Palestine going to continue to be Palestine going to continue to be Palestine despite the definitions of two despite the definitions of two despite the definitions of two territories and [snorts] the territories and [snorts] the territories and [snorts] the acknowledgement of the state of Israel

acknowledgement of the state of Israel acknowledgement of the state of Israel and the state of Palestine. Um it will and the state of Palestine. Um it will and the state of Palestine. Um it will be in my in my blood in my soul be in my in my blood in my soul be in my in my blood in my soul Palestine. Palestine. Palestine. So and and for for the Jews they they So and and for for the Jews they they So and and for for the Jews they they can consider also the whole entire can consider also the whole entire can consider also the whole entire homeland if if they would like to as uh homeland if if they would like to as uh homeland if if they would like to as uh Israel or you know Israel. Um so opening Israel or you know Israel. Um so opening Israel or you know Israel. Um so opening the borders uh will give both people the the borders uh will give both people the the borders uh will give both people the opportunity to practice this sense of opportunity to practice this sense of opportunity to practice this sense of belonging and connection but also to belonging and connection but also to belonging and connection but also to reside from one place to another. reside from one place to another. reside from one place to another. For example, For example, For example, if you are if you are if you are an Israeli Jewish citizen an Israeli Jewish citizen an Israeli Jewish citizen and you are practiced as a software and you are practiced as a software and you are practiced as a software engineer and you want to work for a engineer and you want to work for a engineer and you want to work for a company in Raabi in the West Bank, there company in Raabi in the West Bank, there company in Raabi in the West Bank, there is a tech park in Raabi in Ber near near is a tech park in Raabi in Ber near near is a tech park in Raabi in Ber near near Ramla. You will be able to work there.

Ramla. You will be able to work there. Ramla. You will be able to work there. you will apply for a work permission you will apply for a work permission you will apply for a work permission [snorts] and if you would like to you [snorts] and if you would like to you [snorts] and if you would like to you can also take your family with you and can also take your family with you and can also take your family with you and have an apartment there. It's like in in have an apartment there. It's like in in have an apartment there. It's like in in any other place in the world. uh uh even any other place in the world. uh uh even any other place in the world. uh uh even here you live in New York but you work here you live in New York but you work here you live in New York but you work in I don't know LA or you you was born in I don't know LA or you you was born in I don't know LA or you you was born here and this ability for people to to here and this ability for people to to here and this ability for people to to move between the two spaces and we are move between the two spaces and we are move between the two spaces and we are speaking about a very tiny small of of speaking about a very tiny small of of speaking about a very tiny small of of place Israel Palestine it's uh it's like place Israel Palestine it's uh it's like place Israel Palestine it's uh it's like New Jersey I think New Jersey I think New Jersey I think so it's very natural for people to move so it's very natural for people to move so it's very natural for people to move also between the two spaces because of also between the two spaces because of also between the two spaces because of their circumstances their circumstances their circumstances life uh um conditions and because of life uh um conditions and because of life uh um conditions and because of their connection. I'm going to interrupt their connection. I'm going to interrupt their connection. I'm going to interrupt for one second just to draw out for one second just to draw out for one second just to draw out something that you mentioned that I just something that you mentioned that I just something that you mentioned that I just want to have you explain which is that want to have you explain which is that want to have you explain which is that in in that scenario you just laid out in in that scenario you just laid out in in that scenario you just laid out the software engineer who wants to work the software engineer who wants to work the software engineer who wants to work uh outside Ramala uh outside Ramala uh outside Ramala >> it that person even if they moved there >> it that person even if they moved there >> it that person even if they moved there >> and this seems to me to be one way this >> and this seems to me to be one way this >> and this seems to me to be one way this vision differs from from one state vision differs from from one state vision differs from from one state visions visions visions >> they would still vote for the prime >> they would still vote for the prime >> they would still vote for the prime minister minister minister >> exactly >> exactly >> exactly >> of Israel and similarly somebody from >> of Israel and similarly somebody from >> of Israel and similarly somebody from Ramala who maybe moves to work near a Ramala who maybe moves to work near a Ramala who maybe moves to work near a hospital in Tel Aviv they can live in hospital in Tel Aviv they can live in hospital in Tel Aviv they can live in Tel Aviv, but they would still vote for Tel Aviv, but they would still vote for Tel Aviv, but they would still vote for the prime minister the prime minister the prime minister >> or leader of Palestine.

>> or leader of Palestine. >> or leader of Palestine. >> They will continue having their >> They will continue having their >> They will continue having their citizenship rights in their national citizenship rights in their national citizenship rights in their national state. Palestinians vote for the state. Palestinians vote for the state. Palestinians vote for the Palestinian uh government. Okay. Palestinian uh government. Okay. Palestinian uh government. Okay. Um but they can have residency in Israel Um but they can have residency in Israel Um but they can have residency in Israel and accordingly all the civil rights uh and accordingly all the civil rights uh and accordingly all the civil rights uh and and local rights that comes with the and and local rights that comes with the and and local rights that comes with the uh residency uh status and vice versa. uh residency uh status and vice versa. uh residency uh status and vice versa. But the whole concept is to start with But the whole concept is to start with But the whole concept is to start with freedom of movement and freedom of freedom of movement and freedom of freedom of movement and freedom of residency. residency. residency. Um this concept actually gives us a Um this concept actually gives us a Um this concept actually gives us a space to think about arrangements when space to think about arrangements when space to think about arrangements when it comes for example it comes for example it comes for example for um solving the very important issue for um solving the very important issue for um solving the very important issue one of the core Palestinian issues which one of the core Palestinian issues which one of the core Palestinian issues which is the right of return and the is the right of return and the is the right of return and the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian refugees. Palestinian refugees. these refugees these refugees these refugees they will get um uh citizenship in the they will get um uh citizenship in the they will get um uh citizenship in the state of Palestine but they will be able state of Palestine but they will be able state of Palestine but they will be able also to apply for residency in Israel also to apply for residency in Israel also to apply for residency in Israel the way that the the place that they the way that the the place that they the way that the the place that they will were expelled from originally in in will were expelled from originally in in will were expelled from originally in in 48. So, I'm going to come back to right 48. So, I'm going to come back to right 48. So, I'm going to come back to right of return in a moment because I do want of return in a moment because I do want of return in a moment because I do want us to talk about it. But, but my I want us to talk about it. But, but my I want us to talk about it. But, but my I want to to to >> ask the question that I think many >> ask the question that I think many >> ask the question that I think many Israeli Jews would have hearing this, Israeli Jews would have hearing this, Israeli Jews would have hearing this, which is which is which is how can you possibly have open borders how can you possibly have open borders how can you possibly have open borders and be safe? How can you have open

and be safe? How can you have open and be safe? How can you have open borders and not have, you know, someone borders and not have, you know, someone borders and not have, you know, someone from Islamic jihad in the West Bank from Islamic jihad in the West Bank from Islamic jihad in the West Bank coming through with explosives strapped coming through with explosives strapped coming through with explosives strapped to them and then blowing up a bus in Tel to them and then blowing up a bus in Tel to them and then blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv, as happened many, many times, is, Aviv, as happened many, many times, is, Aviv, as happened many, many times, is, you know, much better than me. Even here you know, much better than me. Even here you know, much better than me. Even here uh in America with much more peaceful uh in America with much more peaceful uh in America with much more peaceful relations with Mexico and Canada, the relations with Mexico and Canada, the relations with Mexico and Canada, the idea of open borders is politically idea of open borders is politically idea of open borders is politically lethal lethal lethal >> and the concerns are primarily security >> and the concerns are primarily security >> and the concerns are primarily security and overwhelm. So how do you answer and overwhelm. So how do you answer and overwhelm. So how do you answer those concerns? those concerns? those concerns? >> So >> So >> So there there's a practical answer to that there there's a practical answer to that there there's a practical answer to that which is we're not talking about no which is we're not talking about no which is we're not talking about no borders. The question is not if there's borders. The question is not if there's borders. The question is not if there's going to be a border. It's what kind of going to be a border. It's what kind of going to be a border. It's what kind of a border there will be and in order to a border there will be and in order to a border there will be and in order to achieve what achieve what achieve what we are committed we are committed we are committed first and foremost for the security of first and foremost for the security of first and foremost for the security of both people. That is why we do what we both people. That is why we do what we both people. That is why we do what we do for the security of Israel and for do for the security of Israel and for do for the security of Israel and for the security of Palestine. That's number the security of Palestine. That's number the security of Palestine. That's number one. what we're offering here is moving one. what we're offering here is moving one. what we're offering here is moving gradually gradually with all the gradually gradually with all the gradually gradually with all the mechanisms needed and we can look at mechanisms needed and we can look at mechanisms needed and we can look at places like the European Union. So it's places like the European Union. So it's places like the European Union. So it's important to to keep in mind that the important to to keep in mind that the important to to keep in mind that the European Union is one good example. Um European Union is one good example. Um European Union is one good example. Um but there's no exact example for Israel but there's no exact example for Israel but there's no exact example for Israel Palestine, right? And and I want to say Palestine, right? And and I want to say Palestine, right? And and I want to say that because a lot of the time people that because a lot of the time people that because a lot of the time people get stuck and say, "Oh, it's not exactly get stuck and say, "Oh, it's not exactly get stuck and say, "Oh, it's not exactly the same and it's impossible, right? I the same and it's impossible, right? I the same and it's impossible, right? I mean, you know, here's Jews and Arabs.

mean, you know, here's Jews and Arabs. mean, you know, here's Jews and Arabs. This is the Middle East. it's a This is the Middle East. it's a This is the Middle East. it's a different time and because there is no different time and because there is no different time and because there is no other exact example of this than it's other exact example of this than it's other exact example of this than it's never going to work and that never going never going to work and that never going never going to work and that never going to work mentality is part of what got us to work mentality is part of what got us to work mentality is part of what got us to this awful situation we're in. Um to this awful situation we're in. Um to this awful situation we're in. Um there is no unique perfect example and there is no unique perfect example and there is no unique perfect example and it's good to talk about Northern Ireland it's good to talk about Northern Ireland it's good to talk about Northern Ireland as another example of power sharing and as another example of power sharing and as another example of power sharing and transitioning from you know a zero sum transitioning from you know a zero sum transitioning from you know a zero sum game into freedom of movement, freedom game into freedom of movement, freedom game into freedom of movement, freedom of residency. I mean decoupling that of residency. I mean decoupling that of residency. I mean decoupling that nationality from a geographic space and nationality from a geographic space and nationality from a geographic space and into sustainable peace. So there are you into sustainable peace. So there are you into sustainable peace. So there are you know other examples out there. know other examples out there. know other examples out there. What I have been admiring about the What I have been admiring about the What I have been admiring about the European Union and what has helped me is European Union and what has helped me is European Union and what has helped me is number one the political imagination of number one the political imagination of number one the political imagination of it. If you would be 80 years ago in it. If you would be 80 years ago in it. If you would be 80 years ago in Europe and someone would tell you that Europe and someone would tell you that Europe and someone would tell you that in 75 years you would be able to move in 75 years you would be able to move in 75 years you would be able to move freely between France and Germany and freely between France and Germany and freely between France and Germany and your grandchildren will be able to your grandchildren will be able to your grandchildren will be able to reside in Berlin as French hipsters. You reside in Berlin as French hipsters. You reside in Berlin as French hipsters. You would say there's no way lock her up.

would say there's no way lock her up. would say there's no way lock her up. But that's the reality today. And the But that's the reality today. And the But that's the reality today. And the reality of that came from a place of reality of that came from a place of reality of that came from a place of interest. And that's very important to interest. And that's very important to interest. And that's very important to say as well. This was not you know that say as well. This was not you know that say as well. This was not you know that French and Germans were starting to love French and Germans were starting to love French and Germans were starting to love each other and to say let's how can we each other and to say let's how can we each other and to say let's how can we live together happily. It was after live together happily. It was after live together happily. It was after hundreds of years of bloodshed and the hundreds of years of bloodshed and the hundreds of years of bloodshed and the realization that their shared interests realization that their shared interests realization that their shared interests can actually ensure their safety. It can actually ensure their safety. It can actually ensure their safety. It took 70 years, 60 years, 50 years to get took 70 years, 60 years, 50 years to get took 70 years, 60 years, 50 years to get to an arrangement of freedom of to an arrangement of freedom of to an arrangement of freedom of movement. That's okay. I have 50 years movement. That's okay. I have 50 years movement. That's okay. I have 50 years to wait for peace. I don't have 50 years to wait for peace. I don't have 50 years to wait for peace. I don't have 50 years waiting for what's going on right now to waiting for what's going on right now to waiting for what's going on right now to continue. continue. continue. >> But how do you ensure that security at >> But how do you ensure that security at >> But how do you ensure that security at this border? When people hear open this border? When people hear open this border? When people hear open border, they hear border, they hear border, they hear >> easeful freedom of movement through a >> easeful freedom of movement through a >> easeful freedom of movement through a line that barely exists. What are you line that barely exists. What are you line that barely exists. What are you actually actually actually >> So we are talking about borders for >> So we are talking about borders for >> So we are talking about borders for sure, right? What we're suggesting is sure, right? What we're suggesting is sure, right? What we're suggesting is not not to have security arrangements. not not to have security arrangements. not not to have security arrangements. It's of course to have very It's of course to have very It's of course to have very sophisticated security arrangements. And sophisticated security arrangements. And sophisticated security arrangements. And again, I mean, I I think that the again, I mean, I I think that the again, I mean, I I think that the European is a great way or Northern European is a great way or Northern European is a great way or Northern Ireland and Ireland and the UK are a Ireland and Ireland and the UK are a Ireland and Ireland and the UK are a great place to see how that works great place to see how that works great place to see how that works without without compromising on security without without compromising on security without without compromising on security on on the contrary, but basing it on an on on the contrary, but basing it on an on on the contrary, but basing it on an individual question rather than a individual question rather than a individual question rather than a collective question. It will have to be collective question. It will have to be collective question. It will have to be a process, right? So we start with a process, right? So we start with a process, right? So we start with borders and then we start in these borders and then we start in these borders and then we start in these borders creating the ability to move borders creating the ability to move borders creating the ability to move freely between the two states based on

freely between the two states based on freely between the two states based on your individual security your individual security your individual security I don't know what to say file rather I don't know what to say file rather I don't know what to say file rather than a collective ethnic religious than a collective ethnic religious than a collective ethnic religious question right right now if you're a question right right now if you're a question right right now if you're a Palestinian you can't cross the border Palestinian you can't cross the border Palestinian you can't cross the border although there's a lot to say about that although there's a lot to say about that although there's a lot to say about that for sure right with the amount of for sure right with the amount of for sure right with the amount of Palestinian workers entering Israel Palestinian workers entering Israel Palestinian workers entering Israel every day and no one even you every day and no one even you every day and no one even you talking about that when it comes to talking about that when it comes to talking about that when it comes to security because we depend on it. The security because we depend on it. The security because we depend on it. The other thing that I'll say is that what I other thing that I'll say is that what I other thing that I'll say is that what I think is exceptionally meaningful with think is exceptionally meaningful with think is exceptionally meaningful with the land for all's proposition is that the land for all's proposition is that the land for all's proposition is that it tackles the motivations of the it tackles the motivations of the it tackles the motivations of the conflict. Now this does not mean that conflict. Now this does not mean that conflict. Now this does not mean that we're going to sign an agreement and we're going to sign an agreement and we're going to sign an agreement and everything will be perfect. But if you everything will be perfect. But if you everything will be perfect. But if you have that endgame clear and if you have have that endgame clear and if you have have that endgame clear and if you have answered the collective needs of both answered the collective needs of both answered the collective needs of both people, you take away the justification, people, you take away the justification, people, you take away the justification, the normalization of conflict and the normalization of conflict and the normalization of conflict and violence. I think that is the the violence. I think that is the the violence. I think that is the the biggest new thing that we offer.

biggest new thing that we offer. biggest new thing that we offer. >> I I have a shorter answer for this >> I I have a shorter answer for this >> I I have a shorter answer for this question actually. Ezra, [laughter] question actually. Ezra, [laughter] question actually. Ezra, [laughter] let's let's remember how things started. let's let's remember how things started. let's let's remember how things started. If everything started 48. Okay. Um If everything started 48. Okay. Um If everything started 48. Okay. Um >> even earlier >> even earlier >> even earlier >> of course earlier but the you know the >> of course earlier but the you know the >> of course earlier but the you know the the important point that everything the important point that everything the important point that everything started uh um started uh um started uh um um is actually 48 uh the the Palestinian um is actually 48 uh the the Palestinian um is actually 48 uh the the Palestinian Nagbah first Nagbah we have now the Nagbah first Nagbah we have now the Nagbah first Nagbah we have now the second Nagba. [gasps] So in this case if second Nagba. [gasps] So in this case if second Nagba. [gasps] So in this case if we are going to have a political we are going to have a political we are going to have a political settlement and peace and reconciliation settlement and peace and reconciliation settlement and peace and reconciliation and recognition and I'm speaking about and recognition and I'm speaking about and recognition and I'm speaking about you know big concepts but we believe you know big concepts but we believe you know big concepts but we believe that it's doable um there will be no that it's doable um there will be no that it's doable um there will be no need to speak about need to speak about need to speak about this even question how can we ensure the this even question how can we ensure the this even question how can we ensure the security of the of the Israeli Jews. I security of the of the Israeli Jews. I security of the of the Israeli Jews. I do want to ensure uh their security. But do want to ensure uh their security. But do want to ensure uh their security. But you know what? Um I think who is more you know what? Um I think who is more you know what? Um I think who is more threatened threatened threatened and has been threatened equally at least and has been threatened equally at least and has been threatened equally at least equally equally equally like the Jewish Israelis if not more in like the Jewish Israelis if not more in like the Jewish Israelis if not more in the last two and a half years are also the last two and a half years are also the last two and a half years are also the are also the the Palestinians. So we the are also the the Palestinians. So we the are also the the Palestinians. So we need to to mutually need to to mutually need to to mutually revision what happened over the past I revision what happened over the past I revision what happened over the past I don't know eight decades and start from don't know eight decades and start from don't know eight decades and start from that.

that. that. >> I don't disagree with that but I think >> I don't disagree with that but I think >> I don't disagree with that but I think that creates this chicken and egg that creates this chicken and egg that creates this chicken and egg question with the plan you're offering question with the plan you're offering question with the plan you're offering >> and to say that if there is no need for >> and to say that if there is no need for >> and to say that if there is no need for violence there will be no violence. violence there will be no violence. violence there will be no violence. >> Uh I mean that's true right but it's >> Uh I mean that's true right but it's >> Uh I mean that's true right but it's somewhat tautologically true. somewhat tautologically true. somewhat tautologically true. Some people might say, "Look, this is a Some people might say, "Look, this is a Some people might say, "Look, this is a huge step forward. I'm willing to to to huge step forward. I'm willing to to to huge step forward. I'm willing to to to approach this peacefully." approach this peacefully." approach this peacefully." >> But every day in the West Bank, radical >> But every day in the West Bank, radical >> But every day in the West Bank, radical settlers are committing tremendous acts settlers are committing tremendous acts settlers are committing tremendous acts of violence. Um, in the second inifat, of violence. Um, in the second inifat, of violence. Um, in the second inifat, there was constant suicide bombing. The there was constant suicide bombing. The there was constant suicide bombing. The one of the histories of this uh region, one of the histories of this uh region, one of the histories of this uh region, as you both know better than I do, is as you both know better than I do, is as you both know better than I do, is violent spoilers making uh peace violent spoilers making uh peace violent spoilers making uh peace projects or settlement projects projects or settlement projects projects or settlement projects impossible. impossible. impossible. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so it is true that if you could get >> And so it is true that if you could get >> And so it is true that if you could get to a point where there was no more to a point where there was no more to a point where there was no more violence, then a lot of the ideas on violence, then a lot of the ideas on violence, then a lot of the ideas on this become much easier. I mean, it's this become much easier. I mean, it's this become much easier. I mean, it's not I'm not worried about the absence of not I'm not worried about the absence of not I'm not worried about the absence of aggressive security on the California uh aggressive security on the California uh aggressive security on the California uh you know, Arizona border. Um, but that's you know, Arizona border. Um, but that's you know, Arizona border. Um, but that's not not not >> but that's exactly the opposite. It's >> but that's exactly the opposite. It's >> but that's exactly the opposite. It's exactly the opposite. I mean, exactly the opposite. I mean, exactly the opposite. I mean, >> so we're not going to sign an agreement >> so we're not going to sign an agreement >> so we're not going to sign an agreement and open the borders. That is not the and open the borders. That is not the and open the borders. That is not the plan. We will absolutely have to go plan. We will absolutely have to go plan. We will absolutely have to go through a long process. A long process.

through a long process. A long process. through a long process. A long process. And again, that has been done in other And again, that has been done in other And again, that has been done in other places with bloodier conflicts. So, so places with bloodier conflicts. So, so places with bloodier conflicts. So, so we have to, you know, let go of the fact we have to, you know, let go of the fact we have to, you know, let go of the fact that it's impossible because but the that it's impossible because but the that it's impossible because but the truth is that we have left room for truth is that we have left room for truth is that we have left room for spoilers and we have experienced the spoilers and we have experienced the spoilers and we have experienced the fallout of previous negotiations because fallout of previous negotiations because fallout of previous negotiations because there has never been a commitment to a there has never been a commitment to a there has never been a commitment to a clear endgame. clear endgame. clear endgame. So during the OS accords there was steps So during the OS accords there was steps So during the OS accords there was steps there was uh a process but at no point there was uh a process but at no point there was uh a process but at no point did Israel say there will be at the end did Israel say there will be at the end did Israel say there will be at the end of this process a Palestinian sovereign of this process a Palestinian sovereign of this process a Palestinian sovereign independent state. Never. And if you independent state. Never. And if you independent state. Never. And if you don't have that commitment to the don't have that commitment to the don't have that commitment to the endgame then [clears throat] you leave endgame then [clears throat] you leave endgame then [clears throat] you leave room for spoilers. Palestinians are room for spoilers. Palestinians are room for spoilers. Palestinians are never going to buy that anymore. Ever. never going to buy that anymore. Ever. never going to buy that anymore. Ever. We've we've failed too many times to We've we've failed too many times to We've we've failed too many times to say, "Oh, yeah, eventually there's going say, "Oh, yeah, eventually there's going say, "Oh, yeah, eventually there's going to be kind of a two-state solution to be kind of a two-state solution to be kind of a two-state solution without doing that." And so what we are without doing that." And so what we are without doing that." And so what we are saying is that we need to exactly flip saying is that we need to exactly flip saying is that we need to exactly flip that on its head. I think that the that on its head. I think that the that on its head. I think that the recent moves of several states to recent moves of several states to recent moves of several states to recognize Palestine first was a step in recognize Palestine first was a step in recognize Palestine first was a step in that direction, right? Not to say that that direction, right? Not to say that that direction, right? Not to say that the two-state solution is the end of the the two-state solution is the end of the the two-state solution is the end of the process, but a Palestinian state has to process, but a Palestinian state has to process, but a Palestinian state has to be the beginning of the process in order be the beginning of the process in order be the beginning of the process in order to get to a reality where we could to get to a reality where we could to get to a reality where we could actually make peace.

actually make peace. actually make peace. >> But I guess the the the reason I'm >> But I guess the the the reason I'm >> But I guess the the the reason I'm pushing on this is that the politics of pushing on this is that the politics of pushing on this is that the politics of Israel could not be farther from that. Israel could not be farther from that. Israel could not be farther from that. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> In any possible way. >> In any possible way. >> In any possible way. >> Yeah. And so to say that the only way to >> Yeah. And so to say that the only way to >> Yeah. And so to say that the only way to think about this plan or the only way to think about this plan or the only way to think about this plan or the only way to think about this approach is that there think about this approach is that there think about this approach is that there needs to be first and foremost an needs to be first and foremost an needs to be first and foremost an ironclad commitment from let's say a ironclad commitment from let's say a ironclad commitment from let's say a supermaajority of Israeli Jews to go not supermaajority of Israeli Jews to go not supermaajority of Israeli Jews to go not just to a two-state solution but to a just to a two-state solution but to a just to a two-state solution but to a confederacy with shared sovereignty over confederacy with shared sovereignty over confederacy with shared sovereignty over Jerusalem which is one of the tenants of Jerusalem which is one of the tenants of Jerusalem which is one of the tenants of the plan with a form of right of return the plan with a form of right of return the plan with a form of right of return throughout the entire uh land. And to throughout the entire uh land. And to throughout the entire uh land. And to say that you know the promise is that say that you know the promise is that say that you know the promise is that security will follow that. I talk to security will follow that. I talk to security will follow that. I talk to people there and they'll say well look people there and they'll say well look people there and they'll say well look we tried a peace process. We tried also we tried a peace process. We tried also we tried a peace process. We tried also and what we got was a second inifato. We and what we got was a second inifato. We and what we got was a second inifato. We were we are not going to make that were we are not going to make that were we are not going to make that mistake mistake mistake >> again. So when you are trying to pitch >> again. So when you are trying to pitch >> again. So when you are trying to pitch it to the audience it to the audience it to the audience that you need to get to agree to it.

that you need to get to agree to it. that you need to get to agree to it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which are the people who live near you. >> Which are the people who live near you. >> Which are the people who live near you. What do you say to them? What do you say to them? What do you say to them? Things are changing in the Middle East Things are changing in the Middle East Things are changing in the Middle East and in Israel Palestine in a way that and in Israel Palestine in a way that and in Israel Palestine in a way that they haven't in a very very long time. they haven't in a very very long time. they haven't in a very very long time. For the past 20 years, we have been For the past 20 years, we have been For the past 20 years, we have been under this false um assumption that we under this false um assumption that we under this false um assumption that we can again not solve this conflict. can again not solve this conflict. can again not solve this conflict. October 7th is not was not a security October 7th is not was not a security October 7th is not was not a security problem. It's a political problem. It's problem. It's a political problem. It's problem. It's a political problem. It's an outcome of not solving the conflict. an outcome of not solving the conflict. an outcome of not solving the conflict. Do we have all the answers? Absolutely Do we have all the answers? Absolutely Do we have all the answers? Absolutely not. We have invested 30 years in not. We have invested 30 years in not. We have invested 30 years in thinking about the paradigm of thinking about the paradigm of thinking about the paradigm of separation for peace, which I think separation for peace, which I think separation for peace, which I think today is impossible to achieve and also today is impossible to achieve and also today is impossible to achieve and also not desirable if we learn from other not desirable if we learn from other not desirable if we learn from other conflicts. We haven't invested nearly conflicts. We haven't invested nearly conflicts. We haven't invested nearly anything in trying to elaborate a vision anything in trying to elaborate a vision anything in trying to elaborate a vision like this that learns from mistakes of like this that learns from mistakes of like this that learns from mistakes of the past and learns from other conflicts the past and learns from other conflicts the past and learns from other conflicts that have been solved sustainably. That that have been solved sustainably. That that have been solved sustainably. That is what we need to do today. This is not is what we need to do today. This is not is what we need to do today. This is not to say that security is not our number to say that security is not our number to say that security is not our number one concern. As will said, security for one concern. As will said, security for one concern. As will said, security for both people, right? Because a lot of the both people, right? Because a lot of the both people, right? Because a lot of the time we say security, we mean security time we say security, we mean security time we say security, we mean security for Israeli Jews. That has been part of for Israeli Jews. That has been part of for Israeli Jews. That has been part of the I would say problem with the the I would say problem with the the I would say problem with the international discourse around this. But international discourse around this. But international discourse around this. But I um as an Israeli trust and know that I um as an Israeli trust and know that I um as an Israeli trust and know that we have the technical capacity in Israel we have the technical capacity in Israel we have the technical capacity in Israel to deal with this challenge. There's no to deal with this challenge. There's no to deal with this challenge. There's no doubt that we have the technical doubt that we have the technical doubt that we have the technical capacity. But the question is where are

capacity. But the question is where are capacity. But the question is where are you going? Right? What is the vision? you going? Right? What is the vision? you going? Right? What is the vision? What is the endgame? Because if the What is the endgame? Because if the What is the endgame? Because if the endgame is what we had 30 years ago that endgame is what we had 30 years ago that endgame is what we had 30 years ago that hasn't been relevantly updated, that hasn't been relevantly updated, that hasn't been relevantly updated, that doesn't tackle the core deadlocks of the doesn't tackle the core deadlocks of the doesn't tackle the core deadlocks of the two-state solution that we all know, two-state solution that we all know, two-state solution that we all know, refugees, water, Jerusalem, borders, refugees, water, Jerusalem, borders, refugees, water, Jerusalem, borders, right? Settlements. If we don't have right? Settlements. If we don't have right? Settlements. If we don't have good answers to these questions and and good answers to these questions and and good answers to these questions and and that's what we're doing, we will never that's what we're doing, we will never that's what we're doing, we will never get to a place that we can actually move get to a place that we can actually move get to a place that we can actually move forward. forward. forward. >> Tell tell me a bit more about the way >> Tell tell me a bit more about the way >> Tell tell me a bit more about the way that the vision approaches the that the vision approaches the that the vision approaches the settlements. Um I was thinking about settlements. Um I was thinking about settlements. Um I was thinking about some conversations I had when I was some conversations I had when I was some conversations I had when I was there where you said to me, "These lines there where you said to me, "These lines there where you said to me, "These lines you all draw are ridiculous." that the you all draw are ridiculous." that the you all draw are ridiculous." that the idea that there is a deeper if there is idea that there is a deeper if there is idea that there is a deeper if there is any Jewish connection to the land, it is any Jewish connection to the land, it is any Jewish connection to the land, it is deeper to Hebrron than to Tel Aviv. deeper to Hebrron than to Tel Aviv. deeper to Hebrron than to Tel Aviv. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That if there's any religious grounding >> That if there's any religious grounding >> That if there's any religious grounding for why we are here, it does not follow for why we are here, it does not follow for why we are here, it does not follow the boundaries of the 67 borders. And the boundaries of the 67 borders. And the boundaries of the 67 borders. And and I also remember realizing just like and I also remember realizing just like and I also remember realizing just like when I was driving around the West Bank, when I was driving around the West Bank, when I was driving around the West Bank, these are not going away. that uh the these are not going away. that uh the these are not going away. that uh the is really Jews sort of from the old is really Jews sort of from the old is really Jews sort of from the old peace camp who tell me oh maybe we can peace camp who tell me oh maybe we can peace camp who tell me oh maybe we can still that it's too many people it's too still that it's too many people it's too still that it's too many people it's too big it's too entrenched they're building big it's too entrenched they're building big it's too entrenched they're building more every day more every day more every day >> one thing that I find very interesting >> one thing that I find very interesting >> one thing that I find very interesting in in in in this project is that you in in in in this project is that you in in in in this project is that you you can frame it different ways but in a

you can frame it different ways but in a you can frame it different ways but in a way that is different from I think the way that is different from I think the way that is different from I think the two-state solutions with all of its land two-state solutions with all of its land two-state solutions with all of its land swaps and everything you're able much swaps and everything you're able much swaps and everything you're able much more directly to simultaneously accept more directly to simultaneously accept more directly to simultaneously accept the presence of the presence of the presence of >> Jewish people in the West Bank, in East >> Jewish people in the West Bank, in East >> Jewish people in the West Bank, in East Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, and accept Palestinian right of return and accept Palestinian right of return and accept Palestinian right of return sort of at the same time. When I read sort of at the same time. When I read sort of at the same time. When I read it, and I I doubt this is how you all it, and I I doubt this is how you all it, and I I doubt this is how you all would frame it, though maybe you do, it would frame it, though maybe you do, it would frame it, though maybe you do, it almost feels like a trade. almost feels like a trade. almost feels like a trade. Well, first of all, Well, first of all, Well, first of all, we are very careful not to make that we are very careful not to make that we are very careful not to make that symmetry between refugees and settlers. symmetry between refugees and settlers. symmetry between refugees and settlers. >> It's very important for us not to make >> It's very important for us not to make >> It's very important for us not to make that symmetry that symmetry that symmetry for all the reasons. But what I would for all the reasons. But what I would for all the reasons. But what I would say that there say that there say that there >> because refugees have a right >> because refugees have a right >> because refugees have a right to be part of their homeland. They have to be part of their homeland. They have to be part of their homeland. They have been um subjected to terror and to been um subjected to terror and to been um subjected to terror and to expulsion from their homes.

expulsion from their homes. expulsion from their homes. Settlers right now the settlement Settlers right now the settlement Settlers right now the settlement enterprise is an illegal and immoral enterprise is an illegal and immoral enterprise is an illegal and immoral enterprise. It is against international enterprise. It is against international enterprise. It is against international law. A lot of it is against Israeli law law. A lot of it is against Israeli law law. A lot of it is against Israeli law and it is based on a system of and it is based on a system of and it is based on a system of supremacy. supremacy. supremacy. That's there's no question about that That's there's no question about that That's there's no question about that and we are all in agreement with that. and we are all in agreement with that. and we are all in agreement with that. But what we also see is that Jews have a But what we also see is that Jews have a But what we also see is that Jews have a strong sense of attachment and that's strong sense of attachment and that's strong sense of attachment and that's not going to change, right? We that has not going to change, right? We that has not going to change, right? We that has been going on forever. Jews have forever been going on forever. Jews have forever been going on forever. Jews have forever lived in that piece of land and they lived in that piece of land and they lived in that piece of land and they will probably forever will because will probably forever will because will probably forever will because [clears throat] because that attachment [clears throat] because that attachment [clears throat] because that attachment is greater than anything else than you is greater than anything else than you is greater than anything else than you know the sovereign. It's greater than know the sovereign. It's greater than know the sovereign. It's greater than that. And what we are offering around that. And what we are offering around that. And what we are offering around that is not to approve the settlements that is not to approve the settlements that is not to approve the settlements and normalize them and say that that's I and normalize them and say that that's I and normalize them and say that that's I mean they're there so whatever they can mean they're there so whatever they can mean they're there so whatever they can stay not at all but it is to say that we stay not at all but it is to say that we stay not at all but it is to say that we understand that there needs to be a understand that there needs to be a understand that there needs to be a mechanism to deal with Jews who have a mechanism to deal with Jews who have a mechanism to deal with Jews who have a very strong sense of attachment to their very strong sense of attachment to their very strong sense of attachment to their homeland and for them to be able to live homeland and for them to be able to live homeland and for them to be able to live there safely but with no no privileges there safely but with no no privileges there safely but with no no privileges control you know terror to Palestinians.

control you know terror to Palestinians. control you know terror to Palestinians. And so the I don't want to it's And so the I don't want to it's And so the I don't want to it's important for me not to make that important for me not to make that important for me not to make that symmetry, but it is important for me to symmetry, but it is important for me to symmetry, but it is important for me to say that land for all has this elegance say that land for all has this elegance say that land for all has this elegance to it that it is a holistic approach. to it that it is a holistic approach. to it that it is a holistic approach. >> Well, I what I talk about as a trade, >> Well, I what I talk about as a trade, >> Well, I what I talk about as a trade, the way I read the plan and again this the way I read the plan and again this the way I read the plan and again this might be wrong. I'm reading it as a might be wrong. I'm reading it as a might be wrong. I'm reading it as a person who lives in the United States is person who lives in the United States is person who lives in the United States is that I was thinking about in terms of that I was thinking about in terms of that I was thinking about in terms of interests and one of the things that interests and one of the things that interests and one of the things that feels different to me about a land for feels different to me about a land for feels different to me about a land for all is that there are certain interests all is that there are certain interests all is that there are certain interests that both societies hold very dear. that both societies hold very dear. that both societies hold very dear. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That have typically been >> That have typically been >> That have typically been excluded or pushed to the side. excluded or pushed to the side. excluded or pushed to the side. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As too difficult or too extreme for the >> As too difficult or too extreme for the >> As too difficult or too extreme for the main negotiations. main negotiations. main negotiations. >> Exactly. And the the main ones I think >> Exactly. And the the main ones I think >> Exactly. And the the main ones I think of there are right of return which the of there are right of return which the of there are right of return which the Israeli governments have functionally Israeli governments have functionally Israeli governments have functionally not been willing to discuss at any not been willing to discuss at any not been willing to discuss at any serious level. Settlements which people serious level. Settlements which people serious level. Settlements which people have not known what to do with and that have not known what to do with and that have not known what to do with and that the more they have been built the more the more they have been built the more the more they have been built the more unlikely their unwinding has become. And unlikely their unwinding has become. And unlikely their unwinding has become. And the fact that people still talk about it the fact that people still talk about it the fact that people still talk about it just to me is evidence of a dead just to me is evidence of a dead just to me is evidence of a dead paradigm they've not figured out an paradigm they've not figured out an paradigm they've not figured out an answer to.

answer to. answer to. >> Yeah. Exactly. um and Jerusalem, which >> Yeah. Exactly. um and Jerusalem, which >> Yeah. Exactly. um and Jerusalem, which is another complex conversation, but but is another complex conversation, but but is another complex conversation, but but those two specifically have uh I guess those two specifically have uh I guess those two specifically have uh I guess you you would describe it as an as an you you would describe it as an as an you you would describe it as an as an elegance, but to me, what it looks like elegance, but to me, what it looks like elegance, but to me, what it looks like is a bringing into the conversation of is a bringing into the conversation of is a bringing into the conversation of two quite profound interests that have two quite profound interests that have two quite profound interests that have been pushed to its margins with arguably been pushed to its margins with arguably been pushed to its margins with arguably somewhat disastrous results. somewhat disastrous results. somewhat disastrous results. >> Yeah. you know, the the right of return >> Yeah. you know, the the right of return >> Yeah. you know, the the right of return of the Palestinian refugees is one of of the Palestinian refugees is one of of the Palestinian refugees is one of the the the core issues, core issues, core issues, political, moral, um, um, political, moral, um, um, political, moral, um, um, emotional emotional emotional issues of the Palestinian question. And issues of the Palestinian question. And issues of the Palestinian question. And any solution that any solution that any solution that tries to avoid tries to avoid tries to avoid referring to this uh uh issue is going referring to this uh uh issue is going referring to this uh uh issue is going to fail. And we we are speaking about to fail. And we we are speaking about to fail. And we we are speaking about half of the Palestinian people. We start half of the Palestinian people. We start half of the Palestinian people. We start from we didn't spoke much about the from we didn't spoke much about the from we didn't spoke much about the aspects of recognition and historic rec aspects of recognition and historic rec aspects of recognition and historic rec reconciliation between the two people reconciliation between the two people reconciliation between the two people that are two important principles uh that are two important principles uh that are two important principles uh that our paradigm and political platform that our paradigm and political platform that our paradigm and political platform is based on this political vision needs is based on this political vision needs is based on this political vision needs before saying more about the right of before saying more about the right of before saying more about the right of return of the Palestinian people needs return of the Palestinian people needs return of the Palestinian people needs needs actually transformative needs actually transformative needs actually transformative national narratives of both people.

national narratives of both people. national narratives of both people. Um, Um, Um, >> can you say more about what that means >> can you say more about what that means >> can you say more about what that means and what those narratives would be? and what those narratives would be? and what those narratives would be? >> Yeah, I I I think that >> Yeah, I I I think that >> Yeah, I I I think that we Palestinian I will start from us we Palestinian I will start from us we Palestinian I will start from us Palestinians. Palestinians. Palestinians. I I think it's time for all of us to I I think it's time for all of us to I I think it's time for all of us to acknowledge the collective history and acknowledge the collective history and acknowledge the collective history and memory of memory of the Jewish people memory of memory of the Jewish people memory of memory of the Jewish people [snorts] that is shaping their fears uh [snorts] that is shaping their fears uh [snorts] that is shaping their fears uh insecurities and so on. It doesn't in insecurities and so on. It doesn't in insecurities and so on. It doesn't in any mean to give them any legitimacy for any mean to give them any legitimacy for any mean to give them any legitimacy for what's have been done for the what's have been done for the what's have been done for the Palestinian people in the last 80 years. Palestinian people in the last 80 years. Palestinian people in the last 80 years. But we we we need to understand these But we we we need to understand these But we we we need to understand these people and these are very deep people and these are very deep people and these are very deep psychological deep aspects of any psychological deep aspects of any psychological deep aspects of any conflict that we need to acknowledge. conflict that we need to acknowledge. conflict that we need to acknowledge. The same The same The same for the Israeli Jews. They need to also for the Israeli Jews. They need to also for the Israeli Jews. They need to also have this national have this national have this national uh uh narrative transformation of moving uh uh narrative transformation of moving uh uh narrative transformation of moving from denying the Nikkba from denying the Nikkba from denying the Nikkba and what happened there. Um and the and what happened there. Um and the and what happened there. Um and the injustices injustices injustices and to acknowledge this is something and to acknowledge this is something and to acknowledge this is something that that they did. Um and in order to that that they did. Um and in order to that that they did. Um and in order to move forward uh the the acknowledgement move forward uh the the acknowledgement move forward uh the the acknowledgement is very important and the reconciliation is very important and the reconciliation is very important and the reconciliation with our with our with our self histories and memories and with the self histories and memories and with the self histories and memories and with the others are very important.

others are very important. others are very important. >> I I think this question of how the >> I I think this question of how the >> I I think this question of how the people's stories people's stories people's stories both change and coexist is is really both change and coexist is is really both change and coexist is is really important worth spending time on because important worth spending time on because important worth spending time on because it's a hard one to address through it's a hard one to address through it's a hard one to address through policy. plans don't know what to do with policy. plans don't know what to do with policy. plans don't know what to do with stories and identities. stories and identities. stories and identities. >> But but it's also a place where for >> But but it's also a place where for >> But but it's also a place where for instance the European Union example instance the European Union example instance the European Union example begins to break down begins to break down begins to break down >> because one very I think important >> because one very I think important >> because one very I think important dimension of the European story was an dimension of the European story was an dimension of the European story was an agreed upon postw World War II agreed upon postw World War II agreed upon postw World War II narrative. Germany was wrong. narrative. Germany was wrong. narrative. Germany was wrong. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Germany had lost. Germany was defeated. >> Germany had lost. Germany was defeated. >> Germany had lost. Germany was defeated. Germany was Germany was Germany was >> correctly occupied. Germany was not >> correctly occupied. Germany was not >> correctly occupied. Germany was not allowed to have allowed to have allowed to have >> military well right now. uh but you know >> military well right now. uh but you know >> military well right now. uh but you know you got got a fair amount of peace out you got got a fair amount of peace out you got got a fair amount of peace out of it. So we'll you know we'll we'll see of it. So we'll you know we'll we'll see of it. So we'll you know we'll we'll see the the we'll see what happens with the the the we'll see what happens with the the the we'll see what happens with the AFD. But the the point I'm making about AFD. But the the point I'm making about AFD. But the the point I'm making about that is that one way that Europe as we that is that one way that Europe as we that is that one way that Europe as we now think of it was built was on you now think of it was built was on you now think of it was built was on you know a very bloodily agreed to know a very bloodily agreed to know a very bloodily agreed to description of what had happened and description of what had happened and description of what had happened and that's not going to be true here.

that's not going to be true here. that's not going to be true here. >> No. Yeah. >> No. Yeah. >> No. Yeah. >> And I think that's actually as you said >> And I think that's actually as you said >> And I think that's actually as you said I think that's also part of the weakness I think that's also part of the weakness I think that's also part of the weakness of these arrangements. I think that of these arrangements. I think that of these arrangements. I think that Rwanda is also a good example of that. Rwanda is also a good example of that. Rwanda is also a good example of that. The weakness of this winning history of The weakness of this winning history of The weakness of this winning history of winners. winners. winners. >> Um I think that what we are suggesting >> Um I think that what we are suggesting >> Um I think that what we are suggesting is something that is again like breaking is something that is again like breaking is something that is again like breaking away from the binary. This needs to be away from the binary. This needs to be away from the binary. This needs to be our work is to and and this is also the our work is to and and this is also the our work is to and and this is also the origin of land for all. It was a group origin of land for all. It was a group origin of land for all. It was a group of people who came to terms with the of people who came to terms with the of people who came to terms with the fact that the two-state solution as we fact that the two-state solution as we fact that the two-state solution as we know it is no longer know it is no longer know it is no longer viable. It can't physically happen. viable. It can't physically happen. viable. It can't physically happen. Learning from the mistakes and saying Learning from the mistakes and saying Learning from the mistakes and saying why why why has this failed or in the why why why has this failed or in the why why why has this failed or in the control that we have right? I'm not control that we have right? I'm not control that we have right? I'm not talking about the assessination of talking about the assessination of talking about the assessination of Rabin. I'm not talking about you know Rabin. I'm not talking about you know Rabin. I'm not talking about you know what is in our control to say to learn what is in our control to say to learn what is in our control to say to learn from the reasons why and the the the from the reasons why and the the the from the reasons why and the the the co-creation which I think is really the co-creation which I think is really the co-creation which I think is really the secret ingredient right I mean Israelis secret ingredient right I mean Israelis secret ingredient right I mean Israelis have been trying to negotiate with have been trying to negotiate with have been trying to negotiate with Americans over Palestine for a long time Americans over Palestine for a long time Americans over Palestine for a long time that hasn't been successful it has to be that hasn't been successful it has to be that hasn't been successful it has to be co-created in order for it to be co-created in order for it to be co-created in order for it to be acceptable right so another thing we acceptable right so another thing we acceptable right so another thing we learned from Oslo is that the conflict learned from Oslo is that the conflict learned from Oslo is that the conflict didn't start in 1967 didn't start in 1967 didn't start in 1967 right the occupation is a problem, but right the occupation is a problem, but right the occupation is a problem, but it it's not the problem. It needs to go it it's not the problem. It needs to go it it's not the problem. It needs to go backwards. It needs to address the backwards. It needs to address the backwards. It needs to address the motivations, the narratives. And so, if motivations, the narratives. And so, if motivations, the narratives. And so, if you do not come with a narrative that you do not come with a narrative that you do not come with a narrative that addresses religion, that addresses

addresses religion, that addresses addresses religion, that addresses belonging, that addresses the the the belonging, that addresses the the the belonging, that addresses the the the belonging to the entire homeland, to the belonging to the entire homeland, to the belonging to the entire homeland, to the refugees, the Nakba, the Holocaust, refugees, the Nakba, the Holocaust, refugees, the Nakba, the Holocaust, >> not going to work. And now in addition >> not going to work. And now in addition >> not going to work. And now in addition we have October 7th of course and the we have October 7th of course and the we have October 7th of course and the genocidal war in Gaza without again genocidal war in Gaza without again genocidal war in Gaza without again doing symmetry between both events. Part doing symmetry between both events. Part doing symmetry between both events. Part of this package need to be also to of this package need to be also to of this package need to be also to practice accountability for those who practice accountability for those who practice accountability for those who were involved in all of these atrocities were involved in all of these atrocities were involved in all of these atrocities and massacres and killing and so on. But and massacres and killing and so on. But and massacres and killing and so on. But so so I want to hold on this for a so so I want to hold on this for a so so I want to hold on this for a minute because I think two things you minute because I think two things you minute because I think two things you both have said here in the last couple both have said here in the last couple both have said here in the last couple of minutes they they open up questions of minutes they they open up questions of minutes they they open up questions and certainly in my reading of the plan and certainly in my reading of the plan and certainly in my reading of the plan and the documents are not answered. But and the documents are not answered. But and the documents are not answered. But one is this question of accountability one is this question of accountability one is this question of accountability that you brought up and if your belief that you brought up and if your belief that you brought up and if your belief is that there cannot be peaceful sharing is that there cannot be peaceful sharing is that there cannot be peaceful sharing and you know partnership and you know partnership and you know partnership absence some kind of accountability absence some kind of accountability absence some kind of accountability process. what you imagine that looking process. what you imagine that looking process. what you imagine that looking like and and why you imagine that like and and why you imagine that like and and why you imagine that players on either side would submit to players on either side would submit to players on either side would submit to it and and two [snorts] you both of you it and and two [snorts] you both of you it and and two [snorts] you both of you brought up quite a lot of brought up quite a lot of brought up quite a lot of the long historical stories both sides the long historical stories both sides the long historical stories both sides tell but I actually don't understand how tell but I actually don't understand how tell but I actually don't understand how this is able to address that right how this is able to address that right how this is able to address that right how does this address the completely does this address the completely does this address the completely incompatible narratives of what happened incompatible narratives of what happened incompatible narratives of what happened on October 7th and after it how does it on October 7th and after it how does it on October 7th and after it how does it address I can sort understand how to address I can sort understand how to address I can sort understand how to dress as an akba right like I I can read dress as an akba right like I I can read dress as an akba right like I I can read that in the um in in the plan and the

that in the um in in the plan and the that in the um in in the plan and the sort of focus on creating a space of sort of focus on creating a space of sort of focus on creating a space of right of return I can see that but right of return I can see that but right of return I can see that but there's a lot that has happened since it there's a lot that has happened since it there's a lot that has happened since it is not answered there from you know the is not answered there from you know the is not answered there from you know the peace processes to the second so there's peace processes to the second so there's peace processes to the second so there's a sort of a difference between saying a sort of a difference between saying a sort of a difference between saying there's a plan for now versus a plan to there's a plan for now versus a plan to there's a plan for now versus a plan to reconcile reconcile reconcile this shared history this shared history this shared history And And And which of those are we looking at? And if which of those are we looking at? And if which of those are we looking at? And if you believe we're looking at the second, you believe we're looking at the second, you believe we're looking at the second, a way to change the way Israelis see a way to change the way Israelis see a way to change the way Israelis see themselves, themselves, themselves, >> a way to change how Palestinians see >> a way to change how Palestinians see >> a way to change how Palestinians see themselves. themselves. themselves. >> I mean, that in some ways seems like an >> I mean, that in some ways seems like an >> I mean, that in some ways seems like an even harder even harder even harder >> challenge >> challenge >> challenge than trying to, you know, imagine new than trying to, you know, imagine new than trying to, you know, imagine new border policies. border policies. border policies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What is it? What is the mechanism the >> What is it? What is the mechanism the >> What is it? What is the mechanism the levers that you see doing that? levers that you see doing that? levers that you see doing that? So one of the research groups that we So one of the research groups that we So one of the research groups that we are organizing um is about transitional are organizing um is about transitional are organizing um is about transitional justice. justice. justice. We are committed to do the learning from We are committed to do the learning from We are committed to do the learning from other places to ensure that we other places to ensure that we other places to ensure that we incorporate those lessons in this incorporate those lessons in this incorporate those lessons in this program right in this solution. And so I program right in this solution. And so I program right in this solution. And so I I I'm humbled to say that we have I I'm humbled to say that we have I I'm humbled to say that we have amazing um experts international and amazing um experts international and amazing um experts international and Israeli and Palestinians who are doing Israeli and Palestinians who are doing Israeli and Palestinians who are doing that work with that. I think that this that work with that. I think that this that work with that. I think that this solution, the fact that it does talk solution, the fact that it does talk solution, the fact that it does talk about the past in a way that reconciles about the past in a way that reconciles about the past in a way that reconciles the main collective needs of both people

the main collective needs of both people the main collective needs of both people for freedom, for acknowledgement of for freedom, for acknowledgement of for freedom, for acknowledgement of their history, for self-determination, their history, for self-determination, their history, for self-determination, for the connection, as we said, to you for the connection, as we said, to you for the connection, as we said, to you know, to exercise that relationship with know, to exercise that relationship with know, to exercise that relationship with the entire homeland, to address the the entire homeland, to address the the entire homeland, to address the issue of the Nakba properly and envision issue of the Nakba properly and envision issue of the Nakba properly and envision a future that is better, right? That is a future that is better, right? That is a future that is better, right? That is better than what they have. And always better than what they have. And always better than what they have. And always says this when we talk to Palestinians, says this when we talk to Palestinians, says this when we talk to Palestinians, what we often hear is that, well, this what we often hear is that, well, this what we often hear is that, well, this is definitely much better than Oslo, is definitely much better than Oslo, is definitely much better than Oslo, right? Like, this is better. I mean, right? Like, this is better. I mean, right? Like, this is better. I mean, this is much better for Palestinians this is much better for Palestinians this is much better for Palestinians than what we've been given before. than what we've been given before. than what we've been given before. >> I do I do want to say a couple of words >> I do I do want to say a couple of words >> I do I do want to say a couple of words about about that. Um, about about that. Um, about about that. Um, [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] I don't want the Israeli Jews to love I don't want the Israeli Jews to love I don't want the Israeli Jews to love the Palestinians and vice versa. And we the Palestinians and vice versa. And we the Palestinians and vice versa. And we are going not going to love each other. are going not going to love each other. are going not going to love each other. Not at this moment and not in the coming Not at this moment and not in the coming Not at this moment and not in the coming years years years maybe and we don't need to forget and maybe and we don't need to forget and maybe and we don't need to forget and not to for forgive not to for forgive not to for forgive but we need to ensure having another but we need to ensure having another but we need to ensure having another situation that we can at least situation that we can at least situation that we can at least continue living continue living continue living and the other pro problems maybe won't and the other pro problems maybe won't and the other pro problems maybe won't be solved be solved be solved uh in our generation but in the other uh uh in our generation but in the other uh uh in our generation but in the other uh generations generations generations we have to have to to start implementing we have to have to to start implementing we have to have to to start implementing um the political vision itself gradually um the political vision itself gradually um the political vision itself gradually and changing the the reality in order to and changing the the reality in order to and changing the the reality in order to open the space for deeper

open the space for deeper open the space for deeper transformative conversations between the transformative conversations between the transformative conversations between the two people that will come one day. I two people that will come one day. I two people that will come one day. I >> I want to pick up on something you just >> I want to pick up on something you just >> I want to pick up on something you just said which is around said which is around said which is around gradualism. Right. There there's one gradualism. Right. There there's one gradualism. Right. There there's one dimension of looking at this which is dimension of looking at this which is dimension of looking at this which is like a like a big plan. It's a kind of like a like a big plan. It's a kind of like a like a big plan. It's a kind of final final final uh equilibrium uh equilibrium uh equilibrium >> that would be a radical transformation >> that would be a radical transformation >> that would be a radical transformation of these two societies and their of these two societies and their of these two societies and their relationships with each other. But to go relationships with each other. But to go relationships with each other. But to go back to something we were talking about back to something we were talking about back to something we were talking about earlier, you know, if you take the EU earlier, you know, if you take the EU earlier, you know, if you take the EU example, it begins with the steel and example, it begins with the steel and example, it begins with the steel and coal community. And so, you know, if you coal community. And so, you know, if you coal community. And so, you know, if you imagine a world that is six or seven imagine a world that is six or seven imagine a world that is six or seven years down the road, years down the road, years down the road, not a world of Netanyahu and Abbas or not a world of Netanyahu and Abbas or not a world of Netanyahu and Abbas or Bennett Lee and Abbas, um, but but Bennett Lee and Abbas, um, but but Bennett Lee and Abbas, um, but but there's been a sort of revolution or two there's been a sort of revolution or two there's been a sort of revolution or two in leadership. in leadership. in leadership. And it's not that And it's not that And it's not that who has come into power is who has come into power is who has come into power is transformationally transformationally transformationally different, but they're open to something different, but they're open to something different, but they're open to something new. And there's a feeling that this has new. And there's a feeling that this has new. And there's a feeling that this has gone the fighting that it has all become gone the fighting that it has all become gone the fighting that it has all become destructive, that it is going nowhere.

destructive, that it is going nowhere. destructive, that it is going nowhere. Um Um Um there's space for whatever reason. There there's space for whatever reason. There there's space for whatever reason. There is space, but there's not space for an is space, but there's not space for an is space, but there's not space for an end to all these issues. There's just end to all these issues. There's just end to all these issues. There's just space to try something new. What does space to try something new. What does space to try something new. What does gradualism look like? gradualism look like? gradualism look like? What is the steel and coal What is the steel and coal What is the steel and coal uh community? What is the things that uh community? What is the things that uh community? What is the things that could begin to build could begin to build could begin to build the sense of trust or belief because you the sense of trust or belief because you the sense of trust or belief because you saw it work on a small scale saw it work on a small scale saw it work on a small scale >> that then ladders up to larger >> that then ladders up to larger >> that then ladders up to larger uh possibilities. uh possibilities. uh possibilities. you know when we met with a very I would you know when we met with a very I would you know when we met with a very I would say um important regional player in the say um important regional player in the say um important regional player in the past few months the one the first thing past few months the one the first thing past few months the one the first thing that they said is like do not talk to us that they said is like do not talk to us that they said is like do not talk to us about a road map we never want to hear about a road map we never want to hear about a road map we never want to hear that word again ever like if you just that word again ever like if you just that word again ever like if you just don't even mention it don't even mention it don't even mention it our commitment is our commitment is our commitment is to present an endgame to present an endgame to present an endgame that can that can that can because we know that without that clear because we know that without that clear because we know that without that clear endgame, endgame, endgame, you just repeat mistakes of the past.

you just repeat mistakes of the past. you just repeat mistakes of the past. >> Okay. But you have to start somewhere. >> Okay. But you have to start somewhere. >> Okay. But you have to start somewhere. >> Yes. Yes. But I'm I'm just important for >> Yes. Yes. But I'm I'm just important for >> Yes. Yes. But I'm I'm just important for me to say yes. Absolutely. But it's me to say yes. Absolutely. But it's me to say yes. Absolutely. But it's important for me to just reiterate how important for me to just reiterate how important for me to just reiterate how important that is. Um and how we have important that is. Um and how we have important that is. Um and how we have examples on the ground that show that. examples on the ground that show that. examples on the ground that show that. >> What I would say is except for that >> What I would say is except for that >> What I would say is except for that commitment to an endgame, right? like commitment to an endgame, right? like commitment to an endgame, right? like that clarity of where this is leading us that clarity of where this is leading us that clarity of where this is leading us and no questions about that is issues and no questions about that is issues and no questions about that is issues like public health. like public health. like public health. I think that public health and economy I think that public health and economy I think that public health and economy and climate are things that um impact and climate are things that um impact and climate are things that um impact our day-to-day life are a great example our day-to-day life are a great example our day-to-day life are a great example of places where we know we can't work of places where we know we can't work of places where we know we can't work separately. If you have COVID in Tel separately. If you have COVID in Tel separately. If you have COVID in Tel Aviv, you will have CO in Ramala. Aviv, you will have CO in Ramala. Aviv, you will have CO in Ramala. [snorts] Uh and so that's in my [snorts] Uh and so that's in my [snorts] Uh and so that's in my imagination of this um without imagination of this um without imagination of this um without developing the blueprint exactly yet of developing the blueprint exactly yet of developing the blueprint exactly yet of the how to get there and again we're the how to get there and again we're the how to get there and again we're working on it. Uh I would say that those working on it. Uh I would say that those working on it. Uh I would say that those are the places where I would imagine are the places where I would imagine are the places where I would imagine this starting from healthcare, economy, this starting from healthcare, economy, this starting from healthcare, economy, climate, water, Jerusalem, the places climate, water, Jerusalem, the places climate, water, Jerusalem, the places where it actually where it actually where it actually >> Do you want to say a word on what that >> Do you want to say a word on what that >> Do you want to say a word on what that would mean for Jerusalem? I would I I would mean for Jerusalem? I would I I would mean for Jerusalem? I would I I would add to that also security security would add to that also security security would add to that also security security cooperation not under a system of cooperation not under a system of cooperation not under a system of control and violence.

control and violence. control and violence. >> I I want to dig in on this a little bit >> I I want to dig in on this a little bit >> I I want to dig in on this a little bit because sort of that was a a list of I because sort of that was a a list of I because sort of that was a a list of I would say issues escalating in their would say issues escalating in their would say issues escalating in their scale, right? You can imagine modest scale, right? You can imagine modest scale, right? You can imagine modest levels of community of cooperation and levels of community of cooperation and levels of community of cooperation and public health all the way up to public health all the way up to public health all the way up to Jerusalem and security which are core. Jerusalem and security which are core. Jerusalem and security which are core. >> Yeah. So, I think the reason I'm asking >> Yeah. So, I think the reason I'm asking >> Yeah. So, I think the reason I'm asking this and the reason I I'm I'm pushing a this and the reason I I'm I'm pushing a this and the reason I I'm I'm pushing a little bit on on this question is that I little bit on on this question is that I little bit on on this question is that I don't think people will believe in your don't think people will believe in your don't think people will believe in your endgame until they see it work in endgame until they see it work in endgame until they see it work in miniature. miniature. miniature. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Your your view as I hear it is that >> Your your view as I hear it is that >> Your your view as I hear it is that people have to be committed to the people have to be committed to the people have to be committed to the endgame endgame endgame for this to even begin. for this to even begin. for this to even begin. >> But, you know, I can I can read the >> But, you know, I can I can read the >> But, you know, I can I can read the polling. You do not have the support for polling. You do not have the support for polling. You do not have the support for that right now. that right now. that right now. >> Right. So if >> Right. So if >> Right. So if >> but again you didn't have the support >> but again you didn't have the support >> but again you didn't have the support for Oslo before Oslo or for Oslo before Oslo or for Oslo before Oslo or >> but also didn't work. >> but also didn't work. >> but also didn't work. >> Sure. Absolutely. But and again that's >> Sure. Absolutely. But and again that's >> Sure. Absolutely. But and again that's because no work was also done on the because no work was also done on the because no work was also done on the ground to complement it. ground to complement it. ground to complement it. >> So so the the question I'm having is if >> So so the the question I'm having is if >> So so the the question I'm having is if there is a moment of opportunity and you there is a moment of opportunity and you there is a moment of opportunity and you could implement something. I mean you could implement something. I mean you could implement something. I mean you know security or trus are both good know security or trus are both good know security or trus are both good examples. I I am actually examples. I I am actually examples. I I am actually I find it to be one of the more I find it to be one of the more I find it to be one of the more depressing realities depressing realities depressing realities of of of the situation that the degree of the situation that the degree of the situation that the degree of cooperation and the effectiveness of the cooperation and the effectiveness of the cooperation and the effectiveness of the cooperation on security.

cooperation on security. cooperation on security. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Between the PA and the Israeli >> Between the PA and the Israeli >> Between the PA and the Israeli government has been sort of pocketed by government has been sort of pocketed by government has been sort of pocketed by the Israeli government as opposed to the Israeli government as opposed to the Israeli government as opposed to been the basis of something bigger. been the basis of something bigger. been the basis of something bigger. >> Yeah. But you know you were say so you >> Yeah. But you know you were say so you >> Yeah. But you know you were say so you you put that on the table as something you put that on the table as something you put that on the table as something that you know you can imagine that being that you know you can imagine that being that you know you can imagine that being a place where there could be a more a place where there could be a more a place where there could be a more transformation thing because it has also transformation thing because it has also transformation thing because it has also created a negative outcome where the created a negative outcome where the created a negative outcome where the PA's lost and eroded support and PA's lost and eroded support and PA's lost and eroded support and legitimacy. legitimacy. legitimacy. Now I would say that was sort of the way Now I would say that was sort of the way Now I would say that was sort of the way the Israeli government wanted it. the Israeli government wanted it. the Israeli government wanted it. Talk me through one place [snorts] that Talk me through one place [snorts] that Talk me through one place [snorts] that be it Jerusalem security something else be it Jerusalem security something else be it Jerusalem security something else where people would look at this and in where people would look at this and in where people would look at this and in your view they would see it and then your view they would see it and then your view they would see it and then they say oh maybe these land for all they say oh maybe these land for all they say oh maybe these land for all people are right. Maybe if we share as people are right. Maybe if we share as people are right. Maybe if we share as opposed to separate, maybe if we opposed to separate, maybe if we opposed to separate, maybe if we cooperate as opposed to um dominate, you cooperate as opposed to um dominate, you cooperate as opposed to um dominate, you get an outcome that is, you know, for in get an outcome that is, you know, for in get an outcome that is, you know, for in this case Jewish Israelis, safer and this case Jewish Israelis, safer and this case Jewish Israelis, safer and more stable more stable more stable and more just and more just and more just without having to be committed to the without having to be committed to the without having to be committed to the entire vision. there there are a lot of entire vision. there there are a lot of entire vision. there there are a lot of uh examples in the in the health um um uh examples in the in the health um um uh examples in the in the health um um field for for example but um I'm I'm I'm field for for example but um I'm I'm I'm field for for example but um I'm I'm I'm not sure that I do want to uh cooperate not sure that I do want to uh cooperate not sure that I do want to uh cooperate with you in this uh in this conversation with you in this uh in this conversation with you in this uh in this conversation on on this topic because I think it's um on on this topic because I think it's um on on this topic because I think it's um it it needs to be to be in a different it it needs to be to be in a different it it needs to be to be in a different way that the Palestinians are not going way that the Palestinians are not going way that the Palestinians are not going now to um now to um now to um you know uh accept or agree for actual

you know uh accept or agree for actual you know uh accept or agree for actual partial steps on the ground until partial steps on the ground until partial steps on the ground until I think there is a need for something uh I think there is a need for something uh I think there is a need for something uh dramatic and people from both sides need dramatic and people from both sides need dramatic and people from both sides need to see a plan with a timeline not again to see a plan with a timeline not again to see a plan with a timeline not again some steps here like what what is some steps here like what what is some steps here like what what is happening since the last fall with with happening since the last fall with with happening since the last fall with with Gaza people are in and believe me we are Gaza people are in and believe me we are Gaza people are in and believe me we are in these conversations in these conversations in these conversations um in in a lot of international uh um in in a lot of international uh um in in a lot of international uh context people are speaking about the context people are speaking about the context people are speaking about the reconstruction of Gaza and the human reconstruction of Gaza and the human reconstruction of Gaza and the human humanitarian situation of course without humanitarian situation of course without humanitarian situation of course without doing anything that this is for sure doing anything that this is for sure doing anything that this is for sure since September or October but nobody is since September or October but nobody is since September or October but nobody is speaking about uh um the rest of the the speaking about uh um the rest of the the speaking about uh um the rest of the the Israelis and the Palestinians and about Israelis and the Palestinians and about Israelis and the Palestinians and about where are we heading this time. So no, where are we heading this time. So no, where are we heading this time. So no, I'm I'm not going to accept all of these I'm I'm not going to accept all of these I'm I'm not going to accept all of these failures. We start first of all from failures. We start first of all from failures. We start first of all from acknowledging um in transformative acknowledgement and um in transformative acknowledgement and recognition the state of Palestine.

recognition the state of Palestine. recognition the state of Palestine. Countries and states need to start Countries and states need to start Countries and states need to start filling this filling this filling this >> recognition in actions diplomatic, >> recognition in actions diplomatic, >> recognition in actions diplomatic, political, legal, economic and so on. political, legal, economic and so on. political, legal, economic and so on. Okay to start with and presenting Okay to start with and presenting Okay to start with and presenting a platform for the political vision. I a platform for the political vision. I a platform for the political vision. I hope it's going to be our political hope it's going to be our political hope it's going to be our political vision and we are happy to to bring um vision and we are happy to to bring um vision and we are happy to to bring um much more insights and blueprints and much more insights and blueprints and much more insights and blueprints and content to the whole phases content to the whole phases content to the whole phases but we know all of us we know in I don't but we know all of us we know in I don't but we know all of us we know in I don't know 2050 we will be there and people know 2050 we will be there and people know 2050 we will be there and people will start also seeing will start also seeing will start also seeing the improvement of of the conditions of the improvement of of the conditions of the improvement of of the conditions of their lives. I think that's number one their lives. I think that's number one their lives. I think that's number one >> immediately >> immediately >> immediately [snorts] but we cannot do it the way it [snorts] but we cannot do it the way it [snorts] but we cannot do it the way it has been done before 30 years. It it for has been done before 30 years. It it for has been done before 30 years. It it for me it creates an interesting instability me it creates an interesting instability me it creates an interesting instability in how to think about what you all have in how to think about what you all have in how to think about what you all have released here and and the way I'd put it released here and and the way I'd put it released here and and the way I'd put it is this that I take the point that you is this that I take the point that you is this that I take the point that you need a vision you're working towards and need a vision you're working towards and need a vision you're working towards and I also take the point that I think I also take the point that I think I also take the point that I think you're making here which is that it you're making here which is that it you're making here which is that it would be folly right now to think that would be folly right now to think that would be folly right now to think that every sentence put down on a plan in every sentence put down on a plan in every sentence put down on a plan in 2026 even in a world where that plan 2026 even in a world where that plan 2026 even in a world where that plan became viable would be the final became viable would be the final became viable would be the final structure of the plan or would be how it structure of the plan or would be how it structure of the plan or would be how it would be implemented like that that's would be implemented like that that's would be implemented like that that's that requires a level of um policy that requires a level of um policy that requires a level of um policy literalism that that even I am not not

literalism that that even I am not not literalism that that even I am not not willing to do. But I guess what you're willing to do. But I guess what you're willing to do. But I guess what you're both getting at on some level and I both getting at on some level and I both getting at on some level and I agree with but is in some ways a harder agree with but is in some ways a harder agree with but is in some ways a harder question is not question is not question is not what kinds of answers you might imagine what kinds of answers you might imagine what kinds of answers you might imagine a constructive process with people a constructive process with people a constructive process with people committed to a just outcome committed to a just outcome committed to a just outcome might entertain. might entertain. might entertain. It's how do you get to the point where It's how do you get to the point where It's how do you get to the point where there's a room with a table with people there's a room with a table with people there's a room with a table with people >> who can begin debating the finer points >> who can begin debating the finer points >> who can begin debating the finer points of the plan. Israel is at this moment of the plan. Israel is at this moment of the plan. Israel is at this moment undoubtedly the stronger actor in this undoubtedly the stronger actor in this undoubtedly the stronger actor in this conflict and there is very very little conflict and there is very very little conflict and there is very very little room for much that is in this vision in room for much that is in this vision in room for much that is in this vision in Israeli politics. the coming election is Israeli politics. the coming election is Israeli politics. the coming election is going to pit Benjamin Netanyahu who's I going to pit Benjamin Netanyahu who's I going to pit Benjamin Netanyahu who's I think politics are well understood think politics are well understood think politics are well understood against Napali Bennett and Laid and and against Napali Bennett and Laid and and against Napali Bennett and Laid and and and Bennett is I think you know one of and Bennett is I think you know one of and Bennett is I think you know one of the leaders of that coalition I mean the leaders of that coalition I mean the leaders of that coalition I mean he's on he has traditionally on many of he's on he has traditionally on many of he's on he has traditionally on many of these issues been to Netanyahu's right these issues been to Netanyahu's right these issues been to Netanyahu's right >> correct >> correct >> correct >> and so you know I can read the polling >> and so you know I can read the polling >> and so you know I can read the polling there uh for the commitment to this kind there uh for the commitment to this kind there uh for the commitment to this kind of vision that you've described needing of vision that you've described needing of vision that you've described needing you would need a wholesale change a you would need a wholesale change a you would need a wholesale change a wholesale change in the structure of wholesale change in the structure of wholesale change in the structure of Israeli public opinion and leaders ship.

Israeli public opinion and leaders ship. Israeli public opinion and leaders ship. What is your theory of what creates that What is your theory of what creates that What is your theory of what creates that change that makes this possible? change that makes this possible? change that makes this possible? >> Well, yeah, that's kind of what we're >> Well, yeah, that's kind of what we're >> Well, yeah, that's kind of what we're doing, right? Like that is that's the doing, right? Like that is that's the doing, right? Like that is that's the work. I I I we've never said that it's work. I I I we've never said that it's work. I I I we've never said that it's easy work. And even more so, I mean, easy work. And even more so, I mean, easy work. And even more so, I mean, there are no shortcuts, right? There's there are no shortcuts, right? There's there are no shortcuts, right? There's there are no shortcuts. Um, when you there are no shortcuts. Um, when you there are no shortcuts. Um, when you think about Northern Ireland for think about Northern Ireland for think about Northern Ireland for example, as I said earlier, yes, a month example, as I said earlier, yes, a month example, as I said earlier, yes, a month before the Great Variety Agreement, no before the Great Variety Agreement, no before the Great Variety Agreement, no one believed it will ever end. But there one believed it will ever end. But there one believed it will ever end. But there were at least three, if not more, very were at least three, if not more, very were at least three, if not more, very intense years of working bottom up to intense years of working bottom up to intense years of working bottom up to make people start imagining that the make people start imagining that the make people start imagining that the Good Friday Agreement can and will Good Friday Agreement can and will Good Friday Agreement can and will happen with civil society, with happen with civil society, with happen with civil society, with journalists, with artists, with I mean journalists, with artists, with I mean journalists, with artists, with I mean There there is a there needs to be a There there is a there needs to be a There there is a there needs to be a whole mechanism of moving the society whole mechanism of moving the society whole mechanism of moving the society from where we are today which is from where we are today which is from where we are today which is annihilation of the Palestinian people.

annihilation of the Palestinian people. annihilation of the Palestinian people. >> But what moves it? I mean the young in >> But what moves it? I mean the young in >> But what moves it? I mean the young in Israel today are to the right of older Israel today are to the right of older Israel today are to the right of older generations. generations. generations. >> Yeah. Absolutely. That's that's one of >> Yeah. Absolutely. That's that's one of >> Yeah. Absolutely. That's that's one of the biggest problems. the biggest problems. the biggest problems. >> Society has moved and it is moving and >> Society has moved and it is moving and >> Society has moved and it is moving and it is changing but not in the direction it is changing but not in the direction it is changing but not in the direction of of this. So, of of this. So, of of this. So, >> no, no, and I would say >> no, no, and I would say >> no, no, and I would say >> I know I know there are no shortcuts, >> I know I know there are no shortcuts, >> I know I know there are no shortcuts, but but what what but but what what but but what what >> you know, even on a 10-year time frame, >> you know, even on a 10-year time frame, >> you know, even on a 10-year time frame, what do you believe will change what do you believe will change what do you believe will change attitudes sufficiently? attitudes sufficiently? attitudes sufficiently? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh that something like this becomes that something like this becomes that something like this becomes possible. possible. possible. >> We're not in a post war election. We're >> We're not in a post war election. We're >> We're not in a post war election. We're not not not >> um the there isn't even a ceasefire in >> um the there isn't even a ceasefire in >> um the there isn't even a ceasefire in Gaza right now. people are, you know, Gaza right now. people are, you know, Gaza right now. people are, you know, there's no ceasefire and the the war there's no ceasefire and the the war there's no ceasefire and the the war continues and people are very much still continues and people are very much still continues and people are very much still entrenched in the entrenched in the entrenched in the reality of October 7th. And so I am not reality of October 7th. And so I am not reality of October 7th. And so I am not counting on these elections to get us to counting on these elections to get us to counting on these elections to get us to that vision. Not at all. But these the that vision. Not at all. But these the that vision. Not at all. But these the right now within these elections, within right now within these elections, within right now within these elections, within the political framework in Israel, the the political framework in Israel, the the political framework in Israel, the conversation is so so limited. It's conversation is so so limited. It's conversation is so so limited. It's between really the political imagination between really the political imagination between really the political imagination which is becoming our reality of the which is becoming our reality of the which is becoming our reality of the reality in Gaza and the West Bank and reality in Gaza and the West Bank and reality in Gaza and the West Bank and eliminating Palestinian people and then eliminating Palestinian people and then eliminating Palestinian people and then delegitimizing Palestinian citizens of delegitimizing Palestinian citizens of delegitimizing Palestinian citizens of Israel. That's like the other part of Israel. That's like the other part of Israel. That's like the other part of that spectrum and it's basically all we that spectrum and it's basically all we that spectrum and it's basically all we have within the Jewish parties.

have within the Jewish parties. have within the Jewish parties. There is no vision. I I mean I come back There is no vision. I I mean I come back There is no vision. I I mean I come back to this point because I think and I know to this point because I think and I know to this point because I think and I know as an Israeli that young people are as an Israeli that young people are as an Israeli that young people are looking for hope and for alternative looking for hope and for alternative looking for hope and for alternative >> but sorry I I want to push us from a >> but sorry I I want to push us from a >> but sorry I I want to push us from a space of realism here. Young people move space of realism here. Young people move space of realism here. Young people move to the right in Israel. There are to the right in Israel. There are to the right in Israel. There are leftwing politicians in Israel like yeah leftwing politicians in Israel like yeah leftwing politicians in Israel like yeah your goal on they are not popular. your goal on they are not popular. your goal on they are not popular. >> No butan is also the not offering hope >> No butan is also the not offering hope >> No butan is also the not offering hope real hope to solve this conflict and for real hope to solve this conflict and for real hope to solve this conflict and for security. It is not you cannot I don't security. It is not you cannot I don't security. It is not you cannot I don't think and I think think and I think think and I think >> but are people lacking for vision or do >> but are people lacking for vision or do >> but are people lacking for vision or do they not want a vision like they not want a vision like they not want a vision like >> no I think that we have been I think >> no I think that we have been I think >> no I think that we have been I think that we have been trained trained and that we have been trained trained and that we have been trained trained and grown and normalized this thinking that grown and normalized this thinking that grown and normalized this thinking that we do not need to solve this conflict we do not need to solve this conflict we do not need to solve this conflict and I think that October 7th is the and I think that October 7th is the and I think that October 7th is the worst wakeup call that we could imagine. worst wakeup call that we could imagine. worst wakeup call that we could imagine. We said that this will blow in our face. We said that this will blow in our face. We said that this will blow in our face. we never imagined to be so bad. But this we never imagined to be so bad. But this we never imagined to be so bad. But this is and should be and I believe again is and should be and I believe again is and should be and I believe again that this is not the post election that this is not the post election that this is not the post election postwar election that we're waiting for.

postwar election that we're waiting for. postwar election that we're waiting for. But I do believe that this is the time But I do believe that this is the time But I do believe that this is the time to integrate into the Israeli public to integrate into the Israeli public to integrate into the Israeli public conversation discourse the fact that conversation discourse the fact that conversation discourse the fact that this conflict needs to end and that this conflict needs to end and that this conflict needs to end and that there is a solution. I will say and this there is a solution. I will say and this there is a solution. I will say and this is not to counter um the reality where is not to counter um the reality where is not to counter um the reality where Israelis are not at all interested in Israelis are not at all interested in Israelis are not at all interested in anything right now of this such but we anything right now of this such but we anything right now of this such but we have met in 2025 15,000 Israelis that is have met in 2025 15,000 Israelis that is have met in 2025 15,000 Israelis that is equivalent to half a million Americans equivalent to half a million Americans equivalent to half a million Americans who have been looking for vision and who have been looking for vision and who have been looking for vision and hope and alternatives and ways out and hope and alternatives and ways out and hope and alternatives and ways out and political imagination and we've been political imagination and we've been political imagination and we've been doing it I would say the majority of doing it I would say the majority of doing it I would say the majority of these with young people with political these with young people with political these with young people with political imagination workshops with soft entering imagination workshops with soft entering imagination workshops with soft entering points, right? Not immediately with say points, right? Not immediately with say points, right? Not immediately with say this is the vision, you know, vote for this is the vision, you know, vote for this is the vision, you know, vote for this vision. No, but to say guys, wake this vision. No, but to say guys, wake this vision. No, but to say guys, wake up. Your future is in your hands. up. Your future is in your hands. up. Your future is in your hands. The leaders are not giving us that. It The leaders are not giving us that. It The leaders are not giving us that. It has to come from us, from civil society, has to come from us, from civil society, has to come from us, from civil society, from artists, from journalists, from from artists, from journalists, from from artists, from journalists, from small politicians. And that is something small politicians. And that is something small politicians. And that is something that we are very committed to doing. And that we are very committed to doing. And that we are very committed to doing. And we see that our movement has been we see that our movement has been we see that our movement has been growing exponentially since October 7th.

growing exponentially since October 7th. growing exponentially since October 7th. People are looking. Are we there yet? People are looking. Are we there yet? People are looking. Are we there yet? No. But for example, our dear friends at No. But for example, our dear friends at No. But for example, our dear friends at Standing Together, who are the largest Standing Together, who are the largest Standing Together, who are the largest um um um bottomup ground Jewish Arabic movement bottomup ground Jewish Arabic movement bottomup ground Jewish Arabic movement on the ground today in Israel, Palestine on the ground today in Israel, Palestine on the ground today in Israel, Palestine in Israel I should say. um they a few in Israel I should say. um they a few in Israel I should say. um they a few months ago have announced that they for months ago have announced that they for months ago have announced that they for their 10th anniversary and around their 10th anniversary and around their 10th anniversary and around everything that's going on they're everything that's going on they're everything that's going on they're committed to presenting a political committed to presenting a political committed to presenting a political vision. vision. vision. That political vision is ours, right? That political vision is ours, right? That political vision is ours, right? And so you see that there's an emergence And so you see that there's an emergence And so you see that there's an emergence coming out of October 7th of people coming out of October 7th of people coming out of October 7th of people looking for a new big idea because looking for a new big idea because looking for a new big idea because everything has been shattered and and everything has been shattered and and everything has been shattered and and paradigms that we've been you know paradigms that we've been you know paradigms that we've been you know working around are crumbling. And so working around are crumbling. And so working around are crumbling. And so when you ask me about like where do I when you ask me about like where do I when you ask me about like where do I find hope when I read the polls when I find hope when I read the polls when I find hope when I read the polls when I see the young people voting for Beng see the young people voting for Beng see the young people voting for Beng more and more when I see the the the how more and more when I see the the the how more and more when I see the the the how saturated Israeli society today is with saturated Israeli society today is with saturated Israeli society today is with violence because the violence is getting violence because the violence is getting violence because the violence is getting from everywhere it is by these young from everywhere it is by these young from everywhere it is by these young people who are asking me how can I join people who are asking me how can I join people who are asking me how can I join a landfall and we've been getting these a landfall and we've been getting these a landfall and we've been getting these by the thousands.

by the thousands. by the thousands. So I'm not looking for shortcuts. We are So I'm not looking for shortcuts. We are So I'm not looking for shortcuts. We are here to do that work, but if we don't here to do that work, but if we don't here to do that work, but if we don't start now and present that authorative start now and present that authorative start now and present that authorative now, we're absolutely never going to get now, we're absolutely never going to get now, we're absolutely never going to get there. there. there. >> I agreeing with with my about all of >> I agreeing with with my about all of >> I agreeing with with my about all of that. I think we need uh we need uh a that. I think we need uh we need uh a that. I think we need uh we need uh a lot of pressure from outside in order to lot of pressure from outside in order to lot of pressure from outside in order to um um um to to to um to promote for this change to to to um to promote for this change to to to um to promote for this change inside inside Israel. I think it's not inside inside Israel. I think it's not inside inside Israel. I think it's not only the void of people and it's not only the void of people and it's not only the void of people and it's not only that people got used not to speak only that people got used not to speak only that people got used not to speak about the Israeli Palestinian conflict about the Israeli Palestinian conflict about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and not to even we've been seeing how and not to even we've been seeing how and not to even we've been seeing how they um they um they um speak speak speak um and treat uh Palestinians in Gaza and um and treat uh Palestinians in Gaza and um and treat uh Palestinians in Gaza and in the West Bank. So there is something in the West Bank. So there is something in the West Bank. So there is something and inside of Israel as well by the way. and inside of Israel as well by the way. and inside of Israel as well by the way. >> Yeah. and and against us Palestinian >> Yeah. and and against us Palestinian >> Yeah. and and against us Palestinian citizens uh in in Israel. the the citizens uh in in Israel. the the citizens uh in in Israel. the the degrees of the degrees of the degrees of the uh dehumanization of the Palestinian uh dehumanization of the Palestinian uh dehumanization of the Palestinian people in the Israeli uh public people in the Israeli uh public people in the Israeli uh public conversation and political conversation conversation and political conversation conversation and political conversation is just insane is just insane is just insane and and and um not surprising because this is um not surprising because this is um not surprising because this is actually the nature of settler colonial actually the nature of settler colonial actually the nature of settler colonial violent arrogant uh societies violent arrogant uh societies violent arrogant uh societies >> but also of separ also of separation >> but also of separ also of separation >> but also of separ also of separation >> of and also of separation and also of >> of and also of separation and also of >> of and also of separation and also of you know um uh

you know um uh you know um uh propaganda over propaganda in the media propaganda over propaganda in the media propaganda over propaganda in the media and in the whole political conversation and in the whole political conversation and in the whole political conversation and discourse in Israel over years. and discourse in Israel over years. and discourse in Israel over years. Um and that's why I think Um and that's why I think Um and that's why I think there is a place for there is a place for there is a place for um top-down change in Israel and for uh um top-down change in Israel and for uh um top-down change in Israel and for uh pressure from outside. I think I just pressure from outside. I think I just pressure from outside. I think I just want to say we have we are taking the want to say we have we are taking the want to say we have we are taking the agency of Israelis and Palestinians agency of Israelis and Palestinians agency of Israelis and Palestinians leading a vision but we can't do it leading a vision but we can't do it leading a vision but we can't do it alone. We can't at this point thinking alone. We can't at this point thinking alone. We can't at this point thinking that Israeli can ensure the safety or that Israeli can ensure the safety or that Israeli can ensure the safety or security of Israel or of Palestinians security of Israel or of Palestinians security of Israel or of Palestinians for sure is wrong. There is no way we for sure is wrong. There is no way we for sure is wrong. There is no way we can't do this with without serious can't do this with without serious can't do this with without serious pressure and without serious commitments pressure and without serious commitments pressure and without serious commitments of international actors. So this is of international actors. So this is of international actors. So this is absolutely yeah absolutely yeah absolutely yeah >> to say that this should be a wake-up >> to say that this should be a wake-up >> to say that this should be a wake-up call for the international community not call for the international community not call for the international community not to talk about the two-state solution but to talk about the two-state solution but to talk about the two-state solution but to end the atrocities on the ground to end the atrocities on the ground to end the atrocities on the ground first and foremost and by then securing first and foremost and by then securing first and foremost and by then securing and committing to a real solution.

and committing to a real solution. and committing to a real solution. >> I think that is a good place to end our >> I think that is a good place to end our >> I think that is a good place to end our final question. What are three books you final question. What are three books you final question. What are three books you recommend to the audience? And Rula, why recommend to the audience? And Rula, why recommend to the audience? And Rula, why don't we begin with you? I I I decided don't we begin with you? I I I decided don't we begin with you? I I I decided to choose three books that are related to choose three books that are related to choose three books that are related to the conversation that we that we are to the conversation that we that we are to the conversation that we that we are having today. Uh the first one is the having today. Uh the first one is the having today. Uh the first one is the Holocaust and the Nakba edited by Holocaust and the Nakba edited by Holocaust and the Nakba edited by um good colleagues and friends Bashir um good colleagues and friends Bashir um good colleagues and friends Bashir Bashir and and Amos Goldberg. It's very Bashir and and Amos Goldberg. It's very Bashir and and Amos Goldberg. It's very important to understand um um what's important to understand um um what's important to understand um um what's happening now. It was written before uh happening now. It was written before uh happening now. It was written before uh October 7th and the genocide in Gaza but October 7th and the genocide in Gaza but October 7th and the genocide in Gaza but it's still very important essential it's still very important essential it's still very important essential book. book. book. The second is um state of denials. Um, The second is um state of denials. Um, The second is um state of denials. Um, it's not about Israel Palestine, but I it's not about Israel Palestine, but I it's not about Israel Palestine, but I claim all the time that um the Israelis claim all the time that um the Israelis claim all the time that um the Israelis um are um are um are suffering from severe denial, collective suffering from severe denial, collective suffering from severe denial, collective denial and blindness.

denial and blindness. denial and blindness. And um I'm I'm I'm trying to understand And um I'm I'm I'm trying to understand And um I'm I'm I'm trying to understand that and I think a lot of people need that and I think a lot of people need that and I think a lot of people need want maybe to understand and this book want maybe to understand and this book want maybe to understand and this book states of denial um written by um states of denial um written by um states of denial um written by um Stanley Cohen Stanley Cohen Stanley Cohen is very important and helpful. The last is very important and helpful. The last is very important and helpful. The last book is our uh again colleague and book is our uh again colleague and book is our uh again colleague and friend Omar Bertov his uh very recent friend Omar Bertov his uh very recent friend Omar Bertov his uh very recent latest book Israel what went um wrong. latest book Israel what went um wrong. latest book Israel what went um wrong. my my my >> I'm also kind of where thinking about >> I'm also kind of where thinking about >> I'm also kind of where thinking about where I'm at today and so I was thinking where I'm at today and so I was thinking where I'm at today and so I was thinking of uh three books that are kind of one of uh three books that are kind of one of uh three books that are kind of one is is looking to the past and learning is is looking to the past and learning is is looking to the past and learning from it and that is um a Rob Mali's book from it and that is um a Rob Mali's book from it and that is um a Rob Mali's book tomorrow is Yesterday you know we're tomorrow is Yesterday you know we're tomorrow is Yesterday you know we're doing this as people on the ground who doing this as people on the ground who doing this as people on the ground who are committing to doing this bottom up are committing to doing this bottom up are committing to doing this bottom up work of building the movement and vision work of building the movement and vision work of building the movement and vision uh but they've been there in the uh but they've been there in the uh but they've been there in the negotiations learning from the mistakes negotiations learning from the mistakes negotiations learning from the mistakes and I think that That is a practice we and I think that That is a practice we and I think that That is a practice we overlook and we need to really do more overlook and we need to really do more overlook and we need to really do more often learning from our mistakes. So often learning from our mistakes. So often learning from our mistakes. So that's the past. Um the second is the that's the past. Um the second is the that's the past. Um the second is the psalm for the wild built. It's um a psalm for the wild built. It's um a psalm for the wild built. It's um a genre that I do you know this book?

genre that I do you know this book? genre that I do you know this book? >> Yeah. I I didn't expect it to pop up >> Yeah. I I didn't expect it to pop up >> Yeah. I I didn't expect it to pop up here. here. here. >> Yeah. It's it's from a different world. >> Yeah. It's it's from a different world. >> Yeah. It's it's from a different world. Um I Um I Um I which which is very kind of off genre which which is very kind of off genre which which is very kind of off genre for me, but I'm so grateful that I have for me, but I'm so grateful that I have for me, but I'm so grateful that I have read it. Um, we've been in the, you read it. Um, we've been in the, you read it. Um, we've been in the, you know, business of, uh, dystopias for a know, business of, uh, dystopias for a know, business of, uh, dystopias for a long time. Uh, as a Jew, I am committed long time. Uh, as a Jew, I am committed long time. Uh, as a Jew, I am committed to practice my political imagination. to practice my political imagination. to practice my political imagination. It's part of my heritage and we've It's part of my heritage and we've It's part of my heritage and we've neglected that. And so, this book by neglected that. And so, this book by neglected that. And so, this book by Becky Chambers has really allowed me to Becky Chambers has really allowed me to Becky Chambers has really allowed me to kind of sit with alternative futures and kind of sit with alternative futures and kind of sit with alternative futures and help me imagine beyond what I think is help me imagine beyond what I think is help me imagine beyond what I think is possible. I think that's so important. possible. I think that's so important. possible. I think that's so important. Um Um Um and the third is uh for me kind of book and the third is uh for me kind of book and the third is uh for me kind of book for the present which is a children's for the present which is a children's for the present which is a children's book. There are never enough good book. There are never enough good book. There are never enough good recommendations for a children's book. recommendations for a children's book. recommendations for a children's book. Uh it's a book um by Tove Yansen. It's Uh it's a book um by Tove Yansen. It's Uh it's a book um by Tove Yansen. It's the Mumin series. the Mumin series. the Mumin series. >> Um which allows me to first of all read >> Um which allows me to first of all read >> Um which allows me to first of all read a book to both my four and 8-year-old a book to both my four and 8-year-old a book to both my four and 8-year-old which is not so easy to find something which is not so easy to find something which is not so easy to find something that we all enjoy. um but also is like a that we all enjoy. um but also is like a that we all enjoy. um but also is like a profound um I want to say humanist but profound um I want to say humanist but profound um I want to say humanist but of course it's not only about humans uh of course it's not only about humans uh of course it's not only about humans uh but a very sensitive book that um allows but a very sensitive book that um allows but a very sensitive book that um allows for room for emotions and for tackling for room for emotions and for tackling for room for emotions and for tackling very serious philosophic questions and very serious philosophic questions and very serious philosophic questions and fears um in a way that helps me be fears um in a way that helps me be fears um in a way that helps me be present with my children and kind of present with my children and kind of present with my children and kind of remember why I'm doing what what I'm remember why I'm doing what what I'm remember why I'm doing what what I'm doing doing doing >> my pundock rule thank you very much

>> my pundock rule thank you very much >> my pundock rule thank you very much >> thank Yeah.