Graham Platner, Jon Ossoff, and the New Rules of Political Attention | The Ezra Klein Show

How did Graham Platner, a political How did Graham Platner, a political unknown a year ago, unknown a year ago, unknown a year ago, come from nowhere come from nowhere come from nowhere to so thoroughly dominate the primary to so thoroughly dominate the primary to so thoroughly dominate the primary that Janet Mills, the sitting governor that Janet Mills, the sitting governor that Janet Mills, the sitting governor of Maine, of Maine, of Maine, dropped out, dropped out, dropped out, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> or suspended her campaign, I should say, >> or suspended her campaign, I should say, >> or suspended her campaign, I should say, and didn't even come back in and didn't even come back in and didn't even come back in as Platner was rocked by even more as Platner was rocked by even more as Platner was rocked by even more scandals? scandals? scandals? >> Now, the national pundits, the political >> Now, the national pundits, the political >> Now, the national pundits, the political establishment, they keep looking for establishment, they keep looking for establishment, they keep looking for that one story, that one headline, that that one story, that one headline, that that one story, that one headline, that one moment in my life that they can one moment in my life that they can one moment in my life that they can define the campaign by. But in trying so define the campaign by. But in trying so define the campaign by. But in trying so hard to understand me, they failed to hard to understand me, they failed to hard to understand me, they failed to understand that this is not about me at understand that this is not about me at understand that this is not about me at all. This is a movement about us. >> The answer is that he had >> The answer is that he had >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> the most important political resource >> the most important political resource >> the most important political resource right now, right now, right now, and she was not able to grab any of it. and she was not able to grab any of it. and she was not able to grab any of it. That resource is attention. It's a That resource is attention. It's a That resource is attention. It's a constant theme now for me on the show, constant theme now for me on the show, constant theme now for me on the show, that you need to see attention as its that you need to see attention as its that you need to see attention as its own sub- straight of American politics. own sub- straight of American politics. own sub- straight of American politics. And attention is working in really And attention is working in really And attention is working in really unusual ways this year. In the Michigan unusual ways this year. In the Michigan unusual ways this year. In the Michigan Democratic primary for Senate, where Democratic primary for Senate, where Democratic primary for Senate, where Abdul El-Sayed is now in the lead.

Abdul El-Sayed is now in the lead. Abdul El-Sayed is now in the lead. >> Who here believes in Medicare for all? >> Who here believes in Medicare for all? >> Who here believes in Medicare for all? >> [cheering] >> And who believes it's time to abolish >> And who believes it's time to abolish ICE? ICE? ICE? >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> And who believes WE GOT TO GET MONEY OUT >> And who believes WE GOT TO GET MONEY OUT >> And who believes WE GOT TO GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS AND INTO YOUR POCKET? OF POLITICS AND INTO YOUR POCKET? OF POLITICS AND INTO YOUR POCKET? >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> In Texas, where James Talarico, another >> In Texas, where James Talarico, another >> In Texas, where James Talarico, another person people hadn't really heard of a person people hadn't really heard of a person people hadn't really heard of a couple years ago, is now the Democratic couple years ago, is now the Democratic couple years ago, is now the Democratic nominee for Senate. nominee for Senate. nominee for Senate. >> One thing is clear today. We're about to >> One thing is clear today. We're about to >> One thing is clear today. We're about to take back Texas. take back Texas. take back Texas. >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> [cheering] >> In Los Angeles, where we actually saw it >> In Los Angeles, where we actually saw it >> In Los Angeles, where we actually saw it fail in the mayoral candidacy of Spencer fail in the mayoral candidacy of Spencer fail in the mayoral candidacy of Spencer Pratt. Pratt. Pratt. >> Reality TV star Spencer Pratt's >> Reality TV star Spencer Pratt's >> Reality TV star Spencer Pratt's insurgent campaign for LA mayor has insurgent campaign for LA mayor has insurgent campaign for LA mayor has officially run its course. officially run its course. officially run its course. >> These corrupt crooks really do look out >> These corrupt crooks really do look out >> These corrupt crooks really do look out for each other, don't they? for each other, don't they? for each other, don't they? >> What's happening with Jon Ossoff and the >> What's happening with Jon Ossoff and the >> What's happening with Jon Ossoff and the sudden rise in interest in what he's sudden rise in interest in what he's sudden rise in interest in what he's doing? He's a failed president and a doing? He's a failed president and a doing? He's a failed president and a national disgrace. national disgrace. national disgrace. All of it has a lot of lessons, I think, All of it has a lot of lessons, I think, All of it has a lot of lessons, I think, for how attention is working right now for how attention is working right now for how attention is working right now in American politics. in American politics. in American politics. To help me unpack them, I want to have To help me unpack them, I want to have To help me unpack them, I want to have on my favorite person to talk about this on my favorite person to talk about this on my favorite person to talk about this particular topic with, my friend Chris particular topic with, my friend Chris particular topic with, my friend Chris Hayes.

Hayes. Hayes. >> Good evening from New York. I'm Chris >> Good evening from New York. I'm Chris >> Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. Hayes. Hayes. >> Host of All In with [music] Chris Hayes, >> Host of All In with [music] Chris Hayes, >> Host of All In with [music] Chris Hayes, and author of the great book on and author of the great book on and author of the great book on attention in the modern moment, The attention in the modern moment, The attention in the modern moment, The Silence [music] Call: How Attention Silence [music] Call: How Attention Silence [music] Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Became the World's Most Endangered Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. Resource. Resource. As always, my email, if you need our As always, my email, if you need our As always, my email, if you need our attention, is our client show at attention, is our client show at attention, is our client show at nytimes.com. [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show. >> Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show. >> Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show. >> Always great to be back. >> Always great to be back. >> Always great to be back. >> So, I want to have you here for one of >> So, I want to have you here for one of >> So, I want to have you here for one of our every so often check-ins on how our every so often check-ins on how our every so often check-ins on how attention is working in American attention is working in American attention is working in American politics. And I want to start with the politics. And I want to start with the politics. And I want to start with the Wall Street Journal interview Wall Street Journal interview Wall Street Journal interview that was with the people who recruited that was with the people who recruited that was with the people who recruited Graham Platner. Graham Platner. Graham Platner. >> How did you >> How did you >> How did you find Graham Platner? find Graham Platner? find Graham Platner? >> Well, so, I mean, we went through >> Well, so, I mean, we went through >> Well, so, I mean, we went through thousands and thousands of prospects. thousands and thousands of prospects. thousands and thousands of prospects. Um, we, you know, through a number of Um, we, you know, through a number of Um, we, you know, through a number of means, you know, assessed just a huge means, you know, assessed just a huge means, you know, assessed just a huge amount of people. Then, you know, Leanne amount of people. Then, you know, Leanne amount of people. Then, you know, Leanne pulled up this video of this guy with an pulled up this video of this guy with an pulled up this video of this guy with an oyster farm. oyster farm. oyster farm. >> My name is Graham Platner, and I live in >> My name is Graham Platner, and I live in >> My name is Graham Platner, and I live in Sullivan, Maine. The owner of Frenchman Sullivan, Maine. The owner of Frenchman Sullivan, Maine. The owner of Frenchman Bay Oyster Company.

Bay Oyster Company. Bay Oyster Company. >> And then, she pulled up his FEC history >> And then, she pulled up his FEC history >> And then, she pulled up his FEC history and saw and saw and saw you know, the money he'd given to Bernie you know, the money he'd given to Bernie you know, the money he'd given to Bernie Sanders, and, you know, some other Sanders, and, you know, some other Sanders, and, you know, some other people. Um, and that was enough people. Um, and that was enough people. Um, and that was enough information to know that we had the best information to know that we had the best information to know that we had the best prospect that we'd maybe ever seen. prospect that we'd maybe ever seen. prospect that we'd maybe ever seen. >> Okay, I want to flush this out, cuz I've >> Okay, I want to flush this out, cuz I've >> Okay, I want to flush this out, cuz I've been told this story by multiple people been told this story by multiple people been told this story by multiple people how this played out. This group, like, how this played out. This group, like, how this played out. This group, like, they were like, who could run in Maine? they were like, who could run in Maine? they were like, who could run in Maine? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Like, lobster farmer, oyster farmer, >> Like, lobster farmer, oyster farmer, >> Like, lobster farmer, oyster farmer, some kind of fisherman. some kind of fisherman. some kind of fisherman. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, when he says we looked at >> And so, when he says we looked at >> And so, when he says we looked at thousands of people, like, the computer thousands of people, like, the computer thousands of people, like, the computer looked through occupational and other looked through occupational and other looked through occupational and other forms of records. forms of records. forms of records. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It was like, which >> It was like, which >> It was like, which lobster farmers was it? Like, who has lobster farmers was it? Like, who has lobster farmers was it? Like, who has donated to a populist candidate? Which donated to a populist candidate? Which donated to a populist candidate? Which is to say that you know we normally is to say that you know we normally is to say that you know we normally think of candidates think of candidates think of candidates as being you know recruited cuz they're as being you know recruited cuz they're as being you know recruited cuz they're important in their communities or a important in their communities or a important in their communities or a lawyer, they run a hospital, something lawyer, they run a hospital, something lawyer, they run a hospital, something like that. A lot of people grow up like that. A lot of people grow up like that. A lot of people grow up wanting to run for office. wanting to run for office. wanting to run for office. But Graham Platner was cast, right? It But Graham Platner was cast, right? It But Graham Platner was cast, right? It was like like Hollywood looking for was like like Hollywood looking for was like like Hollywood looking for somebody to fill a role.

somebody to fill a role. somebody to fill a role. >> There's a long history there. I mean the >> There's a long history there. I mean the >> There's a long history there. I mean the Democrats are running someone in a in in Democrats are running someone in a in in Democrats are running someone in a in in Tom Keen's district who's a like Tom Keen's district who's a like Tom Keen's district who's a like helicopter pilot. Mikey Sherrill was a helicopter pilot. Mikey Sherrill was a helicopter pilot. Mikey Sherrill was a helicopter pilot. They like you know helicopter pilot. They like you know helicopter pilot. They like you know that's that that's a bio that's that's that that's a bio that's that's that that's a bio that's >> Abigail Spanberger a former CIA officer. >> Abigail Spanberger a former CIA officer. >> Abigail Spanberger a former CIA officer. >> like that part of it is an interesting >> like that part of it is an interesting >> like that part of it is an interesting version of a sort of grassroots lefty version of a sort of grassroots lefty version of a sort of grassroots lefty populist group doing what the DCCC will populist group doing what the DCCC will populist group doing what the DCCC will do or the DSCC. do or the DSCC. do or the DSCC. But the reason this worked was because But the reason this worked was because But the reason this worked was because of the charisma. And charisma at one of the charisma. And charisma at one of the charisma. And charisma at one level it's like I do think there's a level it's like I do think there's a level it's like I do think there's a kind of full circle thing happening in kind of full circle thing happening in kind of full circle thing happening in politics which is like of course politics which is like of course politics which is like of course charisma is important in politics. charisma is important in politics. charisma is important in politics. But I think [snorts] particularly at the But I think [snorts] particularly at the But I think [snorts] particularly at the level of scale there was a period where level of scale there was a period where level of scale there was a period where the formula really didn't take into the formula really didn't take into the formula really didn't take into account charisma. account charisma. account charisma. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It was like bio-social capital, >> It was like bio-social capital, >> It was like bio-social capital, connections, ability to raise money, connections, ability to raise money, connections, ability to raise money, all that stuff and then like whatever all that stuff and then like whatever all that stuff and then like whatever we'll cut some ads for them, we'll get we'll cut some ads for them, we'll get we'll cut some ads for them, we'll get them a good team and they'll be fine. them a good team and they'll be fine. them a good team and they'll be fine. I think charisma matters much more now I think charisma matters much more now I think charisma matters much more now because attention matters more and because attention matters more and because attention matters more and charisma is the talent for grabbing and charisma is the talent for grabbing and charisma is the talent for grabbing and holding attention.

holding attention. holding attention. >> So I think I want to hold on what you >> So I think I want to hold on what you >> So I think I want to hold on what you just said about the DCCC because I think just said about the DCCC because I think just said about the DCCC because I think we both know a fair amount about the way we both know a fair amount about the way we both know a fair amount about the way they recruit. they recruit. they recruit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And one of the grim realities of how >> And one of the grim realities of how >> And one of the grim realities of how they recruit is they very heavily they recruit is they very heavily they recruit is they very heavily emphasize how much money you can raise. emphasize how much money you can raise. emphasize how much money you can raise. One, they will force you to sit on the One, they will force you to sit on the One, they will force you to sit on the phone phone phone >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> six hours a day. >> six hours a day. >> six hours a day. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Six hours a day. And and they will >> Six hours a day. And and they will >> Six hours a day. And and they will punish you if you don't, right? You want punish you if you don't, right? You want punish you if you don't, right? You want to be on things like their red to blue to be on things like their red to blue to be on things like their red to blue lists. lists. lists. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And so I know candidates who are just >> And so I know candidates who are just >> And so I know candidates who are just browbeaten into being on the phone browbeaten into being on the phone browbeaten into being on the phone raising money for hours and hours and raising money for hours and hours and raising money for hours and hours and hours a day hours a day hours a day and the DCCC and the DCCC and the DCCC which is the the sort of Democratic which is the the sort of Democratic which is the the sort of Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee isn't Congressional Campaign Committee isn't Congressional Campaign Committee isn't doing that because they're cynics. doing that because they're cynics. doing that because they're cynics. >> Right, or they have a fetish for it. >> Right, or they have a fetish for it. >> Right, or they have a fetish for it. >> love money. >> love money. >> love money. You you need money. But the thing money You you need money. But the thing money You you need money. But the thing money is buying uh largely is attention. I is buying uh largely is attention. I is buying uh largely is attention. I mean it also buys field and organizing mean it also buys field and organizing mean it also buys field and organizing and all those things. But that buys and all those things. But that buys and all those things. But that buys attention. attention. attention. >> TV. >> TV. >> TV. >> And so what what this group is doing >> And so what what this group is doing >> And so what what this group is doing when they they cast Platner, he's not a when they they cast Platner, he's not a when they they cast Platner, he's not a person who you go to and think "Can you person who you go to and think "Can you person who you go to and think "Can you raise the money to buy attention?"

raise the money to buy attention?" raise the money to buy attention?" He's a person you go to and think "Can He's a person you go to and think "Can He's a person you go to and think "Can you you you unleash the charisma to earn attention?" unleash the charisma to earn attention?" unleash the charisma to earn attention?" >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> Which then will bring in money. >> Which then will bring in money. >> Which then will bring in money. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But even if it doesn't >> But even if it doesn't >> But even if it doesn't attention. attention. attention. >> And this is the point is that you have >> And this is the point is that you have >> And this is the point is that you have to I think to I think to I think you have to have a theory of attention you have to have a theory of attention you have to have a theory of attention for a successful campaign right now in a for a successful campaign right now in a for a successful campaign right now in a way that when that formula was as dead way that when that formula was as dead way that when that formula was as dead set as it was in the kind of set as it was in the kind of set as it was in the kind of you know, high point of broadcast TV you know, high point of broadcast TV you know, high point of broadcast TV ads, right? Like raise as much money as ads, right? Like raise as much money as ads, right? Like raise as much money as possible possible possible hit the airwaves with a ton of broadcast hit the airwaves with a ton of broadcast hit the airwaves with a ton of broadcast TV TV TV and that's the that's the recipe. That's and that's the that's the recipe. That's and that's the that's the recipe. That's 90% of a campaign. 90% of a campaign. 90% of a campaign. As broadcast TV particularly and as As broadcast TV particularly and as As broadcast TV particularly and as broadcast TV ads decline in their broadcast TV ads decline in their broadcast TV ads decline in their salience, right? You have to have some salience, right? You have to have some salience, right? You have to have some alternate theory of how you're going to alternate theory of how you're going to alternate theory of how you're going to get to people. get to people. get to people. In some places like in North Carolina In some places like in North Carolina In some places like in North Carolina with Roy Cooper, like everyone in the with Roy Cooper, like everyone in the with Roy Cooper, like everyone in the state knows who Roy Cooper is. state knows who Roy Cooper is. state knows who Roy Cooper is. Right? He doesn't have the same problem. Right? He doesn't have the same problem. Right? He doesn't have the same problem. The guy's been elected statewide I think The guy's been elected statewide I think The guy's been elected statewide I think five times at this point, something like five times at this point, something like five times at this point, something like that. So he doesn't have to do that. But that. So he doesn't have to do that. But that. So he doesn't have to do that. But if you're running another race, you do if you're running another race, you do if you're running another race, you do have to come up with some theory of how have to come up with some theory of how have to come up with some theory of how you're going to do it. In this case it you're going to do it. In this case it you're going to do it. In this case it was was was casting and then it was finding a person casting and then it was finding a person casting and then it was finding a person who genuinely has real who genuinely has real who genuinely has real obvious raw political talent and obvious raw political talent and obvious raw political talent and charisma.

charisma. charisma. >> Okay, but we're underselling here the >> Okay, but we're underselling here the >> Okay, but we're underselling here the accomplishment of Platner. Because they accomplishment of Platner. Because they accomplishment of Platner. Because they are running in that race ultimately are running in that race ultimately are running in that race ultimately against a Roy Cooper-like figure against a Roy Cooper-like figure against a Roy Cooper-like figure >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> in Janet Mills. >> in Janet Mills. >> in Janet Mills. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> This is not a situation where there is >> This is not a situation where there is >> This is not a situation where there is an open primary of nobodies. an open primary of nobodies. an open primary of nobodies. It's not a situation where they're going It's not a situation where they're going It's not a situation where they're going into a place like Nebraska where they into a place like Nebraska where they into a place like Nebraska where they recruited Dan Osborne, the the recruited Dan Osborne, the the recruited Dan Osborne, the the independent who ran, you know, a cycle independent who ran, you know, a cycle independent who ran, you know, a cycle ago and is running again um this cycle. ago and is running again um this cycle. ago and is running again um this cycle. This is a situation where Chuck Schumer This is a situation where Chuck Schumer This is a situation where Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Senate Campaign and the Democratic Senate Campaign and the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee had a candidate in mind. All Committee had a candidate in mind. All Committee had a candidate in mind. All right, they have a Democratic governor right, they have a Democratic governor right, they have a Democratic governor of Maine and they're going to run the of Maine and they're going to run the of Maine and they're going to run the Democratic governor of Maine against Democratic governor of Maine against Democratic governor of Maine against Mills to pick up that seat. Mills to pick up that seat. Mills to pick up that seat. And what happens just very, very, very And what happens just very, very, very And what happens just very, very, very quickly is that Platner squeezes Mills quickly is that Platner squeezes Mills quickly is that Platner squeezes Mills out intentionally. out intentionally. out intentionally. She She She just the charisma gap between them just the charisma gap between them just the charisma gap between them >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> and the ability that he has to command >> and the ability that he has to command >> and the ability that he has to command attention attention attention particularly online, but that then particularly online, but that then particularly online, but that then translates into all other forms of translates into all other forms of translates into all other forms of attention cuz like the newspapers follow attention cuz like the newspapers follow attention cuz like the newspapers follow it, the cable news follows it, he's on it, the cable news follows it, he's on it, the cable news follows it, he's on your show.

your show. your show. >> He also >> He also >> He also >> He knocks out a sitting governor. >> He knocks out a sitting governor. >> He knocks out a sitting governor. >> Right, but he also, I mean, this is the >> Right, but he also, I mean, this is the >> Right, but he also, I mean, this is the other part of it is he out-campaigns her other part of it is he out-campaigns her other part of it is he out-campaigns her in that state on the ground. in that state on the ground. in that state on the ground. Like it's not just the online part of Like it's not just the online part of Like it's not just the online part of it. I mean, and again, this is part of it. I mean, and again, this is part of it. I mean, and again, this is part of attention, too. Maine is a small state, attention, too. Maine is a small state, attention, too. Maine is a small state, right? I mean, Maine is a state where, right? I mean, Maine is a state where, right? I mean, Maine is a state where, you know, Susan Collins you know, Susan Collins you know, Susan Collins at this point knows, like literally at this point knows, like literally at this point knows, like literally knows a shockingly high percentage of knows a shockingly high percentage of knows a shockingly high percentage of Mainers, Mainers, Mainers, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> This is just the way it works when >> This is just the way it works when >> This is just the way it works when you're an institution like her. It's the you're an institution like her. It's the you're an institution like her. It's the kind of state where you can make inroads kind of state where you can make inroads kind of state where you can make inroads in retail politics in a way that you in retail politics in a way that you in retail politics in a way that you can't in the California governor's race. can't in the California governor's race. can't in the California governor's race. Right? So, part of it, too, is that he Right? So, part of it, too, is that he Right? So, part of it, too, is that he just outworks her. just outworks her. just outworks her. >> But I think that much younger than she >> But I think that much younger than she >> But I think that much younger than she is. I mean, Mills is a 78-year-old is. I mean, Mills is a 78-year-old is. I mean, Mills is a 78-year-old >> And I think there's actually an >> And I think there's actually an >> And I think there's actually an interesting relation here between interesting relation here between interesting relation here between attention attention attention and risk appetite because I think the and risk appetite because I think the and risk appetite because I think the two are so related. two are so related. two are so related. I think a lot of the things that have I think a lot of the things that have I think a lot of the things that have guided Democratic politics around guided Democratic politics around guided Democratic politics around attention have also related to risk attention have also related to risk attention have also related to risk aversion.

aversion. aversion. >> Mhm. Don't >> Mhm. Don't >> Mhm. Don't get negative press. If you're choosing get negative press. If you're choosing get negative press. If you're choosing between no press and negative press, between no press and negative press, between no press and negative press, minimize downsides, okay? minimize downsides, okay? minimize downsides, okay? Other people could have run that Other people could have run that Other people could have run that primary. They knew that Schumer was primary. They knew that Schumer was primary. They knew that Schumer was trying to recruit Mills. She actually trying to recruit Mills. She actually trying to recruit Mills. She actually got in after Platner officially. got in after Platner officially. got in after Platner officially. Almost all of the big name politicians Almost all of the big name politicians Almost all of the big name politicians in the state of Maine went for the in the state of Maine went for the in the state of Maine went for the governor's race. governor's race. governor's race. Right, which was going to be vacated. It Right, which was going to be vacated. It Right, which was going to be vacated. It wasn't going to have a sitting incumbent wasn't going to have a sitting incumbent wasn't going to have a sitting incumbent and you weren't going to take on the and you weren't going to take on the and you weren't going to take on the electoral colossus of Susan Collins. electoral colossus of Susan Collins. electoral colossus of Susan Collins. That's a lower risk choice. That's a lower risk choice. That's a lower risk choice. Platner made a high-risk bet. And I do Platner made a high-risk bet. And I do Platner made a high-risk bet. And I do think there's a relationship between think there's a relationship between think there's a relationship between risk appetite and attention. risk appetite and attention. risk appetite and attention. That's That's That's very much part of democratic politics, very much part of democratic politics, very much part of democratic politics, which is which is which is there is a kind of institutional there is a kind of institutional there is a kind of institutional low-risk appetite. I want to pick up on low-risk appetite. I want to pick up on low-risk appetite. I want to pick up on the word institution there. So, the the word institution there. So, the the word institution there. So, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party Democratic Party, the Republican Party Democratic Party, the Republican Party pre-Trump is like this, too. pre-Trump is like this, too. pre-Trump is like this, too. They choose people who succeed in They choose people who succeed in They choose people who succeed in institutions. So, I mean, if you think institutions. So, I mean, if you think institutions. So, I mean, if you think about the the candidates after Barack about the the candidates after Barack about the the candidates after Barack Obama, right? Hillary Clinton, Joe Obama, right? Hillary Clinton, Joe Obama, right? Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, um in a different way, Kamala Biden, um in a different way, Kamala Biden, um in a different way, Kamala Harris, right? They're all people they Harris, right? They're all people they Harris, right? They're all people they they were not electoral juggernauts, they were not electoral juggernauts, they were not electoral juggernauts, right? Clinton lost to Barack Obama, but right? Clinton lost to Barack Obama, but right? Clinton lost to Barack Obama, but she was beloved within the Democratic she was beloved within the Democratic she was beloved within the Democratic Party at that time. Joe Biden was Barack Party at that time. Joe Biden was Barack Party at that time. Joe Biden was Barack Obama's vice president, and it kind of Obama's vice president, and it kind of Obama's vice president, and it kind of goes down like this.

goes down like this. goes down like this. I think that there is an inverse I think that there is an inverse I think that there is an inverse relationship between the personality relationship between the personality relationship between the personality type type type >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> that succeeds institutionally >> that succeeds institutionally >> that succeeds institutionally and the personality type that succeeds and the personality type that succeeds and the personality type that succeeds attentionally. attentionally. attentionally. >> That's real often true. >> That's real often true. >> That's real often true. >> it is related to what you're talking >> it is related to what you're talking >> it is related to what you're talking about with risk. about with risk. about with risk. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think it has created an almost >> But I think it has created an almost >> But I think it has created an almost structural problem in party recruiting structural problem in party recruiting structural problem in party recruiting because parties, as you were noting, because parties, as you were noting, because parties, as you were noting, they look for all these signals that are they look for all these signals that are they look for all these signals that are fundamentally signals of institutional fundamentally signals of institutional fundamentally signals of institutional capacity. capacity. capacity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Social capital, >> Social capital, >> Social capital, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> ability to raise money, uh jobs that >> ability to raise money, uh jobs that >> ability to raise money, uh jobs that tend have risen through the tend have risen through the tend have risen through the institutions. I mean, Platner is a institutions. I mean, Platner is a institutions. I mean, Platner is a downwardly mobile oyster farmer whose downwardly mobile oyster farmer whose downwardly mobile oyster farmer whose oyster farm doesn't really make money oyster farm doesn't really make money oyster farm doesn't really make money and sells to his mom's fancy restaurant, and sells to his mom's fancy restaurant, and sells to his mom's fancy restaurant, right? He is not You wouldn't just look right? He is not You wouldn't just look right? He is not You wouldn't just look at it and think, "That guy is the most at it and think, "That guy is the most at it and think, "That guy is the most impressive person in Maine." impressive person in Maine." impressive person in Maine." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right? It's not like Mikey Sherrill as a >> Right? It's not like Mikey Sherrill as a >> Right? It's not like Mikey Sherrill as a Navy pilot, you know? But, Navy pilot, you know? But, Navy pilot, you know? But, the people who succeed in institutions the people who succeed in institutions the people who succeed in institutions are often do not have are often do not have are often do not have personalities personalities personalities that are that are that are spiky in the way the attentional moment spiky in the way the attentional moment spiky in the way the attentional moment currently rewards.

currently rewards. currently rewards. >> So, I think that's true. I think there's >> So, I think that's true. I think there's >> So, I think that's true. I think there's a few things going on. One is we should a few things going on. One is we should a few things going on. One is we should talk about success in institutions and talk about success in institutions and talk about success in institutions and credentialing, which are sort of two credentialing, which are sort of two credentialing, which are sort of two different things, right? You know, it different things, right? You know, it different things, right? You know, it means a lot in the world of democratic means a lot in the world of democratic means a lot in the world of democratic progressive politics if someone went to progressive politics if someone went to progressive politics if someone went to Yale Law. So, there's the credential Yale Law. So, there's the credential Yale Law. So, there's the credential part of it, there's actual success in part of it, there's actual success in part of it, there's actual success in institutions, there's relationships to institutions, there's relationships to institutions, there's relationships to those institutions. those institutions. those institutions. And then there's the kind of And then there's the kind of And then there's the kind of personalities that succeed in those personalities that succeed in those personalities that succeed in those institutions. The old term that they institutions. The old term that they institutions. The old term that they would use in the '50s and '60s, right? would use in the '50s and '60s, right? would use in the '50s and '60s, right? In a different era was like a company In a different era was like a company In a different era was like a company man, right? And like a company man is man, right? And like a company man is man, right? And like a company man is someone that gets along well with others someone that gets along well with others someone that gets along well with others in an organizational setting, in an organizational setting, in an organizational setting, um, doesn't make waves, doesn't upset um, doesn't make waves, doesn't upset um, doesn't make waves, doesn't upset people. people. people. And I think the idea of a company man is And I think the idea of a company man is And I think the idea of a company man is kind of what has been the template, kind of what has been the template, kind of what has been the template, again, again, again, almost necessarily, right? I mean, if almost necessarily, right? I mean, if almost necessarily, right? I mean, if you like as you said at the beginning of you like as you said at the beginning of you like as you said at the beginning of this part of the conversation, the this part of the conversation, the this part of the conversation, the Democratic Party is an institution. Democratic Party is an institution. Democratic Party is an institution. >> One thing that Platner is able to carry >> One thing that Platner is able to carry >> One thing that Platner is able to carry in a way that feels authentic in a way that feels authentic in a way that feels authentic is a genuine feeling is a genuine feeling is a genuine feeling that the system that the system that the system is hollow at its core.

is hollow at its core. is hollow at its core. You know, people talk about You know, people talk about You know, people talk about >> Which is not a put-on with him. I mean, >> Which is not a put-on with him. I mean, >> Which is not a put-on with him. I mean, which is the key part of this. which is the key part of this. which is the key part of this. >> I think that's really Yes, I think >> I think that's really Yes, I think >> I think that's really Yes, I think that's important. I mean, you can say a that's important. I mean, you can say a that's important. I mean, you can say a lot about his life and what he has done lot about his life and what he has done lot about his life and what he has done or has not done, and we'll talk about or has not done, and we'll talk about or has not done, and we'll talk about some of that, too. But, he is somebody some of that, too. But, he is somebody some of that, too. But, he is somebody who believes the institutions have who believes the institutions have who believes the institutions have failed because they have failed for him failed because they have failed for him failed because they have failed for him and he has failed out of them. and he has failed out of them. and he has failed out of them. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? The hostility is authentic. >> Right? The hostility is authentic. >> Right? The hostility is authentic. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And [snorts] when you listen to him on And [snorts] when you listen to him on And [snorts] when you listen to him on the stump, the stump, the stump, more than he is carrying a message about more than he is carrying a message about more than he is carrying a message about single-payer healthcare single-payer healthcare single-payer healthcare or a green new deal, or a green new deal, or a green new deal, he is carrying a message about he is carrying a message about he is carrying a message about you know, in very different way than you know, in very different way than you know, in very different way than Bernie did but using similar language Bernie did but using similar language Bernie did but using similar language about an unspecified political about an unspecified political about an unspecified political revolution. He's carrying a message revolution. He's carrying a message revolution. He's carrying a message about about about this is all wrong somehow. this is all wrong somehow. this is all wrong somehow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what you need is somebody who >> And what you need is somebody who >> And what you need is somebody who fundamentally believes fundamentally believes fundamentally believes it is all wrong somehow. it is all wrong somehow. it is all wrong somehow. >> The world that we live in today is not >> The world that we live in today is not >> The world that we live in today is not natural. natural. natural. We do not live in a political and We do not live in a political and We do not live in a political and economic reality that is organic. economic reality that is organic. economic reality that is organic. It is a system that is built by policy It is a system that is built by policy It is a system that is built by policy decisions.

decisions. decisions. Policy that is written by establishment Policy that is written by establishment Policy that is written by establishment politicians in Washington D.C. politicians in Washington D.C. politicians in Washington D.C. at the behest of their donors and their at the behest of their donors and their at the behest of their donors and their supporters. And it is a system that was supporters. And it is a system that was supporters. And it is a system that was made to make sure that no matter how made to make sure that no matter how made to make sure that no matter how hard you work, you will never feel like hard you work, you will never feel like hard you work, you will never feel like you have power. Power's for these people you have power. Power's for these people you have power. Power's for these people and they're up there, they're qualified. and they're up there, they're qualified. and they're up there, they're qualified. They have the pedigree. They have the pedigree. They have the pedigree. They have the background. They're the They have the background. They're the They have the background. They're the ones that are allowed to make decisions ones that are allowed to make decisions ones that are allowed to make decisions for us. Don't worry ourselves, let them for us. Don't worry ourselves, let them for us. Don't worry ourselves, let them take care of it. Well, I'm going to tell take care of it. Well, I'm going to tell take care of it. Well, I'm going to tell you right now, that story is [ __ ] you right now, that story is [ __ ] you right now, that story is [ __ ] >> And you can look across a lot of the >> And you can look across a lot of the >> And you can look across a lot of the candidates who are succeeding right now, candidates who are succeeding right now, candidates who are succeeding right now, you know, here I do think Mondani, you you know, here I do think Mondani, you you know, here I do think Mondani, you know, is a you know, fits in. We'll talk know, is a you know, fits in. We'll talk know, is a you know, fits in. We'll talk about Abdul Said. about Abdul Said. about Abdul Said. >> And Donald Trump was obviously like >> And Donald Trump was obviously like >> And Donald Trump was obviously like this. this. this. >> A large number of the candidates who >> A large number of the candidates who >> A large number of the candidates who have broken through have broken through have broken through are breaking through are breaking through are breaking through with a with a with a with a message more even than an agenda with a message more even than an agenda with a message more even than an agenda of like of like of like genuine genuine genuine disillusionment and anger.

disillusionment and anger. disillusionment and anger. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's there's a >> Yeah, I mean I think there's there's a >> Yeah, I mean I think there's there's a few related questions. So, one I think few related questions. So, one I think few related questions. So, one I think people use the term populism which I people use the term populism which I people use the term populism which I think gets probably as close as any think gets probably as close as any think gets probably as close as any to what we're describing as a tendency. to what we're describing as a tendency. to what we're describing as a tendency. Um Um Um you know, disillusionment, frustration you know, disillusionment, frustration you know, disillusionment, frustration with the failed status quo, elite with the failed status quo, elite with the failed status quo, elite failure, particularly. failure, particularly. failure, particularly. So, there's a few interesting questions So, there's a few interesting questions So, there's a few interesting questions that flow out of that. One is that flow out of that. One is that flow out of that. One is does that have a specific ideological does that have a specific ideological does that have a specific ideological valence? Can you be a moderate populist? valence? Can you be a moderate populist? valence? Can you be a moderate populist? Right, can you be a centrist populist is Right, can you be a centrist populist is Right, can you be a centrist populist is one interesting question. one interesting question. one interesting question. Another is um Another is um Another is um can you channel the attentional politics can you channel the attentional politics can you channel the attentional politics when you are suddenly in the when you are suddenly in the when you are suddenly in the incumbent position? incumbent position? incumbent position? >> I want to pick up on something you said >> I want to pick up on something you said >> I want to pick up on something you said about being a moderate populist. You can about being a moderate populist. You can about being a moderate populist. You can be a moderate populist. And you know how be a moderate populist. And you know how be a moderate populist. And you know how we know that? we know that? we know that? Because there was one in Maine. Because there was one in Maine. Because there was one in Maine. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> The Democrat in the house representing >> The Democrat in the house representing >> The Democrat in the house representing the reddest district in the country the reddest district in the country the reddest district in the country >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> is Jared Golden. Um he's a Maine member >> is Jared Golden. Um he's a Maine member >> is Jared Golden. Um he's a Maine member of Congress. He's a populist, he was a of Congress. He's a populist, he was a of Congress. He's a populist, he was a Bernie Sanders supporter. He is also a Bernie Sanders supporter. He is also a Bernie Sanders supporter. He is also a moderate, you know, he kind of famously moderate, you know, he kind of famously moderate, you know, he kind of famously wrote this op-ed about how Donald Trump wrote this op-ed about how Donald Trump wrote this op-ed about how Donald Trump wouldn't be the end of the world. He wouldn't be the end of the world. He wouldn't be the end of the world. He supported Donald Trump on tariffs, but supported Donald Trump on tariffs, but supported Donald Trump on tariffs, but he is also very, very pro-labor. He's he is also very, very pro-labor. He's he is also very, very pro-labor. He's very, you know, disgusted with politics.

very, you know, disgusted with politics. very, you know, disgusted with politics. And And And he has existed in a kind of politically he has existed in a kind of politically he has existed in a kind of politically miserable existence. miserable existence. miserable existence. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> He's been holding a seat probably no >> He's been holding a seat probably no >> He's been holding a seat probably no other Democrat could hold. other Democrat could hold. other Democrat could hold. >> And in fact, he's leaving now. >> And in fact, he's leaving now. >> And in fact, he's leaving now. >> And he is this year getting primary'd >> And he is this year getting primary'd >> And he is this year getting primary'd from the left. from the left. from the left. And he decided, "I'm done. I'm And he decided, "I'm done. I'm And he decided, "I'm done. I'm retiring." You know, you could have retiring." You know, you could have retiring." You know, you could have imagined a world where Democratic Party imagined a world where Democratic Party imagined a world where Democratic Party you know, fell in love with this guy, you know, fell in love with this guy, you know, fell in love with this guy, embraced him, embraced him, embraced him, and elevated him to run against Susan and elevated him to run against Susan and elevated him to run against Susan Collins. And in that world, I'd be like, Collins. And in that world, I'd be like, Collins. And in that world, I'd be like, "Susan Collins is gone." "Susan Collins is gone." "Susan Collins is gone." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like she is gone. >> Like she is gone. >> Like she is gone. Um but I think the the issue here with Um but I think the the issue here with Um but I think the the issue here with Jared Golden and moderate populism Jared Golden and moderate populism Jared Golden and moderate populism is that you become very vulnerable is that you become very vulnerable is that you become very vulnerable in primaries. in primaries. in primaries. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because on both the right, but now on >> Because on both the right, but now on >> Because on both the right, but now on the left, I mean, the polling on this is the left, I mean, the polling on this is the left, I mean, the polling on this is really fascinating. If you look at the really fascinating. If you look at the really fascinating. If you look at the number of Democrats who said they were number of Democrats who said they were number of Democrats who said they were very liberal in say 1995, right? I mean, very liberal in say 1995, right? I mean, very liberal in say 1995, right? I mean, you know, most Democrats were not you know, most Democrats were not you know, most Democrats were not liberal or very liberal in 1995. Like, liberal or very liberal in 1995. Like, liberal or very liberal in 1995. Like, they self-described as moderate. And now they self-described as moderate. And now they self-described as moderate. And now it's like very liberal. it's like very liberal. it's like very liberal. Um it's very hard to survive. And it's Um it's very hard to survive. And it's Um it's very hard to survive. And it's also just very unpleasant.

also just very unpleasant. also just very unpleasant. >> Yes, it's very That That part of it is a >> Yes, it's very That That part of it is a >> Yes, it's very That That part of it is a big part of that. big part of that. big part of that. >> Even if you can survive the day-to-day >> Even if you can survive the day-to-day >> Even if you can survive the day-to-day of being like yelled at by the advocacy of being like yelled at by the advocacy of being like yelled at by the advocacy groups on your side, by your own groups on your side, by your own groups on your side, by your own friends, the thing that you cannot seem friends, the thing that you cannot seem friends, the thing that you cannot seem to do right now to do right now to do right now is hold that together with being a is hold that together with being a is hold that together with being a successful candidate in primaries where successful candidate in primaries where successful candidate in primaries where you're having to appeal to a you're having to appeal to a you're having to appeal to a high-attention electorate high-attention electorate high-attention electorate with very, very, very sorted political with very, very, very sorted political with very, very, very sorted political opinions. opinions. opinions. >> Yes. And you have >> Yes. And you have >> Yes. And you have Right. Particularly in this sort of Right. Particularly in this sort of Right. Particularly in this sort of nationalized attentional atmosphere. I nationalized attentional atmosphere. I nationalized attentional atmosphere. I mean, that's part of it, too. Like, in mean, that's part of it, too. Like, in mean, that's part of it, too. Like, in another universe another universe another universe people No one online is paying attention people No one online is paying attention people No one online is paying attention to what Jared Golden's doing. to what Jared Golden's doing. to what Jared Golden's doing. Right? Like, you could be Jared Golden Right? Like, you could be Jared Golden Right? Like, you could be Jared Golden for your district, and like the local for your district, and like the local for your district, and like the local news would cover you, and the, you know, news would cover you, and the, you know, news would cover you, and the, you know, the local TV news, the newspapers, maybe the local TV news, the newspapers, maybe the local TV news, the newspapers, maybe some, you know, some nerds would read some, you know, some nerds would read some, you know, some nerds would read about you in Roll Call. about you in Roll Call. about you in Roll Call. Because we're all operating in one Because we're all operating in one Because we're all operating in one attentional sphere, attentional sphere, attentional sphere, there's there's little there's less and there's there's little there's less and there's there's little there's less and less room for that sort of variation.

less room for that sort of variation. less room for that sort of variation. That used to just come about because That used to just come about because That used to just come about because like people just didn't pay pay like people just didn't pay pay like people just didn't pay pay attention to what the main two attention to what the main two attention to what the main two conventional candidate was doing. conventional candidate was doing. conventional candidate was doing. >> I think it's like brings up some of the >> I think it's like brings up some of the >> I think it's like brings up some of the the the the flip side of Platoner. And the the the flip side of Platoner. And the the the flip side of Platoner. And one reason I think Platoner is such an one reason I think Platoner is such an one reason I think Platoner is such an interesting figure to start with here is interesting figure to start with here is interesting figure to start with here is he he he represents both sides of the gamble represents both sides of the gamble represents both sides of the gamble being made, right? The high-risk, being made, right? The high-risk, being made, right? The high-risk, high-attention charisma on the one hand. high-attention charisma on the one hand. high-attention charisma on the one hand. On the other hand, the point of getting On the other hand, the point of getting On the other hand, the point of getting this high-risk candidate with a sort of this high-risk candidate with a sort of this high-risk candidate with a sort of anti-institutional life story anti-institutional life story anti-institutional life story is you're not getting somebody is you're not getting somebody is you're not getting somebody who has been watching his step for a who has been watching his step for a who has been watching his step for a long time. And you're getting somebody long time. And you're getting somebody long time. And you're getting somebody who's maybe misstepped quite a lot. So, who's maybe misstepped quite a lot. So, who's maybe misstepped quite a lot. So, you've got the Nazi totenkopf tattoo on you've got the Nazi totenkopf tattoo on you've got the Nazi totenkopf tattoo on the chest. the chest. the chest. >> Yep. And this >> Yep. And this >> Yep. And this kind of pulsing question about whether kind of pulsing question about whether kind of pulsing question about whether or not he knew about that or not he knew about that or not he knew about that of I'm honestly a little skeptical that of I'm honestly a little skeptical that of I'm honestly a little skeptical that he did not know about it for as long as he did not know about it for as long as he did not know about it for as long as he says he didn't. he says he didn't. he says he didn't. >> that skepticism. >> that skepticism. >> that skepticism. >> Um you have him sexting >> Um you have him sexting >> Um you have him sexting seems like about a half dozen women seems like about a half dozen women seems like about a half dozen women during his marriage or at least, you during his marriage or at least, you during his marriage or at least, you know, texting with them in in in an know, texting with them in in in an know, texting with them in in in an effort to effort to effort to um um um set up some kind of relationship. Also, set up some kind of relationship. Also, set up some kind of relationship. Also, there have been claims from an there have been claims from an there have been claims from an ex-girlfriend, the one who works in ex-girlfriend, the one who works in ex-girlfriend, the one who works in Republican politics, that he was, you Republican politics, that he was, you Republican politics, that he was, you know, borderline abusive when they know, borderline abusive when they know, borderline abusive when they fought.

fought. fought. I've had this trouble with Plathner I've had this trouble with Plathner I've had this trouble with Plathner because because because on the one hand, I find him very on the one hand, I find him very on the one hand, I find him very charismatic. charismatic. charismatic. Much of what he says I like. Much of what he says I like. Much of what he says I like. No particular thing that has come out No particular thing that has come out No particular thing that has come out about him about him about him has been I mean, he's also got these has been I mean, he's also got these has been I mean, he's also got these very politically incorrect Reddit posts very politically incorrect Reddit posts very politically incorrect Reddit posts is maybe the best way to put it. is maybe the best way to put it. is maybe the best way to put it. Nothing has come out about him on its Nothing has come out about him on its Nothing has come out about him on its own has been as qualifying for me. I own has been as qualifying for me. I own has been as qualifying for me. I don't think he's an anti-Semite. He's don't think he's an anti-Semite. He's don't think he's an anti-Semite. He's >> Yeah. He was so politically incorrect on >> Yeah. He was so politically incorrect on >> Yeah. He was so politically incorrect on Reddit Reddit Reddit >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> that if he were an anti-Semite, I think >> that if he were an anti-Semite, I think >> that if he were an anti-Semite, I think we would know. [laughter] Like I think I we would know. [laughter] Like I think I we would know. [laughter] Like I think I think think think I think that one would have come out I think that one would have come out I think that one would have come out >> That's a good point. >> That's a good point. >> That's a good point. >> I think he knew what the tattoo was >> I think he knew what the tattoo was >> I think he knew what the tattoo was earlier. earlier. earlier. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think the spirit in which he This >> And I think the spirit in which he This >> And I think the spirit in which he This is my view of him, right? This is not is my view of him, right? This is not is my view of him, right? This is not based on anything but my read of the based on anything but my read of the based on anything but my read of the situation. situation. situation. The spirit in which he and his friends The spirit in which he and his friends The spirit in which he and his friends got it was edgelordy. got it was edgelordy. got it was edgelordy. It was about it as a signal of a kind of It was about it as a signal of a kind of It was about it as a signal of a kind of vicious badassery, not a signal about vicious badassery, not a signal about vicious badassery, not a signal about Jews or Nazis. That's my view. Um I Jews or Nazis. That's my view. Um I Jews or Nazis. That's my view. Um I don't have I cannot prove it, but I'm don't have I cannot prove it, but I'm don't have I cannot prove it, but I'm telling you what I think. telling you what I think. telling you what I think. The The thing that worries me about The The thing that worries me about The The thing that worries me about Plathner isn't any one thing.

Plathner isn't any one thing. Plathner isn't any one thing. It is the sense that there is It is the sense that there is It is the sense that there is just bad judgment in the guy. I mean, just bad judgment in the guy. I mean, just bad judgment in the guy. I mean, the the the sexting with like the women the the the sexting with like the women the the the sexting with like the women is like it's early in a marriage and is like it's early in a marriage and is like it's early in a marriage and that's pretty recent. that's pretty recent. that's pretty recent. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? The The thing that worries me >> Right? The The thing that worries me >> Right? The The thing that worries me about Plathner isn't kind of any one of about Plathner isn't kind of any one of about Plathner isn't kind of any one of these things individually. these things individually. these things individually. It's that, you know, one thing about a It's that, you know, one thing about a It's that, you know, one thing about a guy who's failed out of a bunch of guy who's failed out of a bunch of guy who's failed out of a bunch of institutions and has kind of been institutions and has kind of been institutions and has kind of been downwardly mobile and has made a bunch downwardly mobile and has made a bunch downwardly mobile and has made a bunch of weird decisions and had a kind of of weird decisions and had a kind of of weird decisions and had a kind of Nazi tattoo Nazi tattoo Nazi tattoo is you might think, yeah, I want the is you might think, yeah, I want the is you might think, yeah, I want the best for him. I hope for all the best best for him. I hope for all the best best for him. I hope for all the best for him. for him. for him. >> Should he be a US Senator? >> Should he be a US Senator? >> Should he be a US Senator? >> he be a US Senator is a very different >> he be a US Senator is a very different >> he be a US Senator is a very different question than that, right? question than that, right? question than that, right? >> Yes, I mean >> Yes, I mean >> Yes, I mean >> I what I if I were appointing people >> I what I if I were appointing people >> I what I if I were appointing people from Maine, would I appoint Garrett from Maine, would I appoint Garrett from Maine, would I appoint Garrett Planer? Like I would not, but that's Planer? Like I would not, but that's Planer? Like I would not, but that's also not how elections work. also not how elections work. also not how elections work. >> we >> we >> we we have the 17th Amendment, right? we have the 17th Amendment, right? we have the 17th Amendment, right? >> Yes, [laughter] >> Yes, [laughter] >> Yes, [laughter] but but to that I think is But here's but but to that I think is But here's but but to that I think is But here's like the thing, he's not running a like the thing, he's not running a like the thing, he's not running a general election yet. general election yet. general election yet. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Susan Collins over performs in polls. He >> Susan Collins over performs in polls. He >> Susan Collins over performs in polls. He has been has been has been >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> generating attention and energy among >> generating attention and energy among >> generating attention and energy among Democrats and among particularly like Democrats and among particularly like Democrats and among particularly like the online left.

the online left. the online left. And whether or not it creates an attack And whether or not it creates an attack And whether or not it creates an attack surface surface surface that you know, you can attack this guy that you know, you can attack this guy that you know, you can attack this guy as fundamentally unreliable. as fundamentally unreliable. as fundamentally unreliable. >> Which is what they will do. >> Which is what they will do. >> Which is what they will do. >> Which is what they are doing. >> Which is what they are doing. >> Which is what they are doing. >> Are doing. >> Are doing. >> Are doing. >> With a lot of money. >> With a lot of money. >> With a lot of money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh if Democrats win that seat maybe this if Democrats win that seat maybe this if Democrats win that seat maybe this all looks genius. If they lose that seat all looks genius. If they lose that seat all looks genius. If they lose that seat I I think there's going to be like a a I I think there's going to be like a a I I think there's going to be like a a level of factional hell to pay. So level of factional hell to pay. So level of factional hell to pay. So >> let me say that I basically share >> let me say that I basically share >> let me say that I basically share essentially share everything you said. essentially share everything you said. essentially share everything you said. Like could and have made those Like could and have made those Like could and have made those arguments. Let me just for the sake of arguments. Let me just for the sake of arguments. Let me just for the sake of this conversation this conversation this conversation >> take the other side for a second. >> take the other side for a second. >> take the other side for a second. One is they did run someone in 2020 who One is they did run someone in 2020 who One is they did run someone in 2020 who was the most standard possible state was the most standard possible state was the most standard possible state legislator, no scandal to speak of, legislator, no scandal to speak of, legislator, no scandal to speak of, raised a ton of money, a woman raised a ton of money, a woman raised a ton of money, a woman and and and she got her butt kicked. she got her butt kicked. she got her butt kicked. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh in fact, she lost by like I think >> Uh in fact, she lost by like I think >> Uh in fact, she lost by like I think nine points, right? nine points, right? nine points, right? >> Uh when she was up in all the polls. >> Uh when she was up in all the polls. >> Uh when she was up in all the polls. >> She was up in all the polls. >> She was up in all the polls. >> She was up in all the polls. >> of why people are so nervous about this >> of why people are so nervous about this >> of why people are so nervous about this race.

race. race. >> They're nervous about the race, but the >> They're nervous about the race, but the >> They're nervous about the race, but the other thing is it's not like that was other thing is it's not like that was other thing is it's not like that was not tried against Susan Collins. It was not tried against Susan Collins. It was not tried against Susan Collins. It was tried, it didn't work. The The thing I tried, it didn't work. The The thing I tried, it didn't work. The The thing I would say, and this goes back to our would say, and this goes back to our would say, and this goes back to our risk thing, is there were like five risk thing, is there were like five risk thing, is there were like five people in that gubernatorial primary. people in that gubernatorial primary. people in that gubernatorial primary. They could have run for Senate. They could have run for Senate. They could have run for Senate. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like the big names of Maine all ran for >> Like the big names of Maine all ran for >> Like the big names of Maine all ran for governor. So, part of this is a little governor. So, part of this is a little governor. So, part of this is a little like everyone's sort of ringing their like everyone's sort of ringing their like everyone's sort of ringing their hands. It's like, "Well, you have to hands. It's like, "Well, you have to hands. It's like, "Well, you have to have people running." have people running." have people running." >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> run. >> run. >> run. He ran. He ran. He ran. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh what what do you want to like what >> Uh what what do you want to like what >> Uh what what do you want to like what what is the magic wand that makes them what is the magic wand that makes them what is the magic wand that makes them run? And they didn't run because that run? And they didn't run because that run? And they didn't run because that was a harder race. was a harder race. was a harder race. The third thing I would say is The third thing I would say is The third thing I would say is I think there's a theory of the case I think there's a theory of the case I think there's a theory of the case here, and I'm not saying this is true. here, and I'm not saying this is true. here, and I'm not saying this is true. I'm just presenting it as a possibility. I'm just presenting it as a possibility. I'm just presenting it as a possibility. Is it part of the brand problem for the Is it part of the brand problem for the Is it part of the brand problem for the Democrats has been excessive Democrats has been excessive Democrats has been excessive conscientiousness. conscientiousness. conscientiousness. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That this is the party of essentially >> That this is the party of essentially >> That this is the party of essentially kind of like schoolmarm kind of like schoolmarm kind of like schoolmarm tsk-tsking. Now, that's extremely tsk-tsking. Now, that's extremely tsk-tsking. Now, that's extremely gendered. gendered. gendered. I want to be very clear about that. Um I want to be very clear about that. Um I want to be very clear about that. Um and I think a lot of the conversation and I think a lot of the conversation and I think a lot of the conversation about Platner on both sides of the very about Platner on both sides of the very about Platner on both sides of the very intense polarized debate within the intense polarized debate within the intense polarized debate within the Democratic coalition is very gendered.

Democratic coalition is very gendered. Democratic coalition is very gendered. That said, That said, That said, I think it's you know, there is a kind I think it's you know, there is a kind I think it's you know, there is a kind of post-COVID hangover of the sort of of post-COVID hangover of the sort of of post-COVID hangover of the sort of idea that the Democrats are just this idea that the Democrats are just this idea that the Democrats are just this like again, this kind of like like again, this kind of like like again, this kind of like quick to cancel, tell you what you can quick to cancel, tell you what you can quick to cancel, tell you what you can and can't do, kicking people out who and can't do, kicking people out who and can't do, kicking people out who talk a little salty, etc. talk a little salty, etc. talk a little salty, etc. I think there's something to that. I I think there's something to that. I I think there's something to that. I think there's particularly something to think there's particularly something to think there's particularly something to that with a certain subset of that with a certain subset of that with a certain subset of cross-pressured swing voters. cross-pressured swing voters. cross-pressured swing voters. And maybe this is a kind of antidote to And maybe this is a kind of antidote to And maybe this is a kind of antidote to it. it. it. >> Yeah, maybe maybe none of this is >> Yeah, maybe maybe none of this is >> Yeah, maybe maybe none of this is negative for him. negative for him. negative for him. >> Right. In the sense of like the Reddit I >> Right. In the sense of like the Reddit I >> Right. In the sense of like the Reddit I had a post People have joined me in this had a post People have joined me in this had a post People have joined me in this joke. The Reddit posts are the median joke. The Reddit posts are the median joke. The Reddit posts are the median voter, right? That's the joke people voter, right? That's the joke people voter, right? That's the joke people have made. have made. have made. >> When I saw the Reddit posts, I was like, >> When I saw the Reddit posts, I was like, >> When I saw the Reddit posts, I was like, "That's a asset." "That's a asset." "That's a asset." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? I don't have to agree with him or >> Right? I don't have to agree with him or >> Right? I don't have to agree with him or like them to be like, "That's a like them to be like, "That's a like them to be like, "That's a political asset." I mean, this is a a political asset." I mean, this is a a political asset." I mean, this is a a line I I I say all the time, but and line I I I say all the time, but and line I I I say all the time, but and it's something I need to like spin out it's something I need to like spin out it's something I need to like spin out into an essay, but the personality type into an essay, but the personality type into an essay, but the personality type of the left is bureaucratic, and the of the left is bureaucratic, and the of the left is bureaucratic, and the personality type of the right is personality type of the right is personality type of the right is autocratic. autocratic. autocratic. And and those are failures, right? The And and those are failures, right? The And and those are failures, right? The that the the left is another version of that the the left is another version of that the the left is another version of it that I use is the left is over formed it that I use is the left is over formed it that I use is the left is over formed by institutions and the right is under by institutions and the right is under by institutions and the right is under formed by institutions.

formed by institutions. formed by institutions. And you can imagine a world where And you can imagine a world where And you can imagine a world where Platner loses Platner loses Platner loses or doesn't win by as much as he could or doesn't win by as much as he could or doesn't win by as much as he could have. And the answer is simply like you have. And the answer is simply like you have. And the answer is simply like you kind of almost got it right with him. kind of almost got it right with him. kind of almost got it right with him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, you just pick somebody like a >> You know, you just pick somebody like a >> You know, you just pick somebody like a little too under formed, right? You little too under formed, right? You little too under formed, right? You don't want the straight A student and don't want the straight A student and don't want the straight A student and you don't want the kid smoking pot in you don't want the kid smoking pot in you don't want the kid smoking pot in the parking lot. You need something sort the parking lot. You need something sort the parking lot. You need something sort of of of You need something sort of in between You need something sort of in between You need something sort of in between there. But there. But there. But but but but the question is really we're but but but the question is really we're but but but the question is really we're going to see a test of whether or not going to see a test of whether or not going to see a test of whether or not this works in of whether or not this this works in of whether or not this this works in of whether or not this works in Maine. It's going to be very works in Maine. It's going to be very works in Maine. It's going to be very very interesting to totally to see how very interesting to totally to see how very interesting to totally to see how that plays out. that plays out. that plays out. >> Can I say two more things about him? So >> Can I say two more things about him? So >> Can I say two more things about him? So one is I think the way that I also think one is I think the way that I also think one is I think the way that I also think there's something interesting in how he there's something interesting in how he there's something interesting in how he has handled the last few weeks. has handled the last few weeks. has handled the last few weeks. He has been doing a lot of press. He has been doing a lot of press. He has been doing a lot of press. And I I think this is another thing And I I think this is another thing And I I think this is another thing where you have to if you're going to do where you have to if you're going to do where you have to if you're going to do it, you got to be all in, which is it, you got to be all in, which is it, you got to be all in, which is you're going to go and you're face you're going to go and you're face you're going to go and you're face questions and you're going to talk to questions and you're going to talk to questions and you're going to talk to people. people. people. And that is I think one of the lessons And that is I think one of the lessons And that is I think one of the lessons of our new era of the dynamics of of our new era of the dynamics of of our new era of the dynamics of scandal, whatever they are, is that scandal, whatever they are, is that scandal, whatever they are, is that attention moves very quickly.

attention moves very quickly. attention moves very quickly. And And And if you embrace that and you're like talk if you embrace that and you're like talk if you embrace that and you're like talk to people, you can move through things to people, you can move through things to people, you can move through things in a way that in a way that in a way that used to be very difficult. used to be very difficult. used to be very difficult. And then the last thing I'll say about And then the last thing I'll say about And then the last thing I'll say about Platner, I think this is a really Platner, I think this is a really Platner, I think this is a really important aspect of his appeal. important aspect of his appeal. important aspect of his appeal. People have talked about the fact, oh, People have talked about the fact, oh, People have talked about the fact, oh, he went to a private school and his he went to a private school and his he went to a private school and his grandfather was this famous architect grandfather was this famous architect grandfather was this famous architect and his mom has this restaurant. Um Dad and his mom has this restaurant. Um Dad and his mom has this restaurant. Um Dad bought his house. Dad bought his house. bought his house. Dad bought his house. bought his house. Dad bought his house. This is a guy who This is a guy who This is a guy who it was enlisted. it was enlisted. it was enlisted. An enlisted Marine during the Global War An enlisted Marine during the Global War An enlisted Marine during the Global War on Terror on Terror on Terror in multiple tours fighting in really in multiple tours fighting in really in multiple tours fighting in really brutal circumstances. brutal circumstances. brutal circumstances. And here is what why I think that's And here is what why I think that's And here is what why I think that's politically salient. He has an ability politically salient. He has an ability politically salient. He has an ability to, for lack of a better word, code to, for lack of a better word, code to, for lack of a better word, code switch. switch. switch. I think code switching is actually like I think code switching is actually like I think code switching is actually like one of the superpowers of a successful one of the superpowers of a successful one of the superpowers of a successful Democratic politician Democratic politician Democratic politician because the Democratic Party is so because the Democratic Party is so because the Democratic Party is so varied and diverse and pluralistic, you varied and diverse and pluralistic, you varied and diverse and pluralistic, you have to move between different groups. have to move between different groups. have to move between different groups. And it's hard to learn how to do that And it's hard to learn how to do that And it's hard to learn how to do that without some organic experience in without some organic experience in without some organic experience in different worlds.

different worlds. different worlds. Graham Platon really genuinely has that. Graham Platon really genuinely has that. Graham Platon really genuinely has that. It gives him that thing where he's able It gives him that thing where he's able It gives him that thing where he's able to talk to different audiences. Barack to talk to different audiences. Barack to talk to different audiences. Barack Obama really had it. Obama really had it. Obama really had it. >> Bill Clinton >> Bill Clinton >> Bill Clinton >> Bill Clinton, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez >> Bill Clinton, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez >> Bill Clinton, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez all of these people all of these people all of these people you know, Bill Clinton was like that's you know, Bill Clinton was like that's you know, Bill Clinton was like that's interesting. Does Ocasio-Cortez have interesting. Does Ocasio-Cortez have interesting. Does Ocasio-Cortez have code switching at that level? I think code switching at that level? I think code switching at that level? I think she does actually. And I think one of she does actually. And I think one of she does actually. And I think one of the things that you see also, you saw the things that you see also, you saw the things that you see also, you saw this with Obama, you saw it with this with Obama, you saw it with this with Obama, you saw it with you know, they used to call Barack Obama you know, they used to call Barack Obama you know, they used to call Barack Obama in the right-wing press Barry because he in the right-wing press Barry because he in the right-wing press Barry because he was Barry in high school at a certain was Barry in high school at a certain was Barry in high school at a certain point. The idea being this guy's point. The idea being this guy's point. The idea being this guy's inauthentic, he's not really who you inauthentic, he's not really who you inauthentic, he's not really who you think he is, he's pretending to be this think he is, he's pretending to be this think he is, he's pretending to be this thing. The flip side of that is this is thing. The flip side of that is this is thing. The flip side of that is this is a person who's had many different a person who's had many different a person who's had many different experiences in radically different life experiences in radically different life experiences in radically different life worlds that has given this person an worlds that has given this person an worlds that has given this person an organic ability to connect across organic ability to connect across organic ability to connect across difference that proves to be the difference that proves to be the difference that proves to be the superpower in Democratic politics. superpower in Democratic politics. superpower in Democratic politics. >> Let me take a beat on Ocasio-Cortez here >> Let me take a beat on Ocasio-Cortez here >> Let me take a beat on Ocasio-Cortez here because it's something I'm really because it's something I'm really because it's something I'm really interested to see with her. I think interested to see with her. I think interested to see with her. I think nobody knows if she's going to run for nobody knows if she's going to run for nobody knows if she's going to run for president. I'm not sure she knows if president. I'm not sure she knows if president. I'm not sure she knows if she's going to run for president. She is she's going to run for president. She is she's going to run for president. She is a a a tremendous political talent by any tremendous political talent by any tremendous political talent by any measure.

measure. measure. But unlike say a Bernie Sanders or as we But unlike say a Bernie Sanders or as we But unlike say a Bernie Sanders or as we were saying a Graham Platon were saying a Graham Platon were saying a Graham Platon she stays away from disagreement. she stays away from disagreement. she stays away from disagreement. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You do not see her doing >> You do not see her doing >> You do not see her doing what Bernie does, what Ro Khanna does. what Bernie does, what Ro Khanna does. what Bernie does, what Ro Khanna does. >> She's not on Flagerant. >> She's not on Flagerant. >> She's not on Flagerant. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> She's not out there with Lex Friedman. >> She's not out there with Lex Friedman. >> She's not out there with Lex Friedman. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> She I mean she just did a thing with >> She I mean she just did a thing with >> She I mean she just did a thing with More Perfect Union which is like a lefty More Perfect Union which is like a lefty More Perfect Union which is like a lefty content producer, you know, talking to content producer, you know, talking to content producer, you know, talking to Trump voters but in a very Trump voters but in a very Trump voters but in a very >> controlled environment >> controlled environment >> controlled environment >> controlled environment, right? She's not >> controlled environment, right? She's not >> controlled environment, right? She's not on Jubilee which Ro Khanna and for that on Jubilee which Ro Khanna and for that on Jubilee which Ro Khanna and for that matter James Talarico went on. matter James Talarico went on. matter James Talarico went on. And I think one of the biggest questions And I think one of the biggest questions And I think one of the biggest questions for her is actually whether she is for her is actually whether she is for her is actually whether she is comfortable comfortable comfortable either switching into places that are either switching into places that are either switching into places that are not natural alliances for her not natural alliances for her not natural alliances for her or or or being herself in those places. Gavin being herself in those places. Gavin being herself in those places. Gavin Newsom is doing this everywhere right Newsom is doing this everywhere right Newsom is doing this everywhere right now, right? He will go anywhere he's now, right? He will go anywhere he's now, right? He will go anywhere he's asked and he particularly wants to go to asked and he particularly wants to go to asked and he particularly wants to go to places where it's going to be unusual to places where it's going to be unusual to places where it's going to be unusual to see him there. She runs a very very very see him there. She runs a very very very see him there. She runs a very very very very careful operation.

very careful operation. very careful operation. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And often when she is in spaces where >> And often when she is in spaces where >> And often when she is in spaces where she's not comfortable like the Munich she's not comfortable like the Munich she's not comfortable like the Munich Security Conference Security Conference Security Conference it can get hairy for her. She can sort it can get hairy for her. She can sort it can get hairy for her. She can sort of fumble. of fumble. of fumble. >> And Congresswoman, I'll start with you. >> And Congresswoman, I'll start with you. >> And Congresswoman, I'll start with you. Would and should the US actually commit Would and should the US actually commit Would and should the US actually commit US troops to defend Taiwan if China were US troops to defend Taiwan if China were US troops to defend Taiwan if China were to move? to move? to move? Um you know Um you know Um you know I think that I think that I think that this is such a this is such a this is such a you know I I think that you know I I think that you know I I think that this is a um this is of course a this is of course a a very long-standing um a very long-standing um a very long-standing um policy. policy. policy. >> I mean if I were her advisor and I'm >> I mean if I were her advisor and I'm >> I mean if I were her advisor and I'm not, I mean the problem is she's not not, I mean the problem is she's not not, I mean the problem is she's not doing enough. So she's [snorts] not doing enough. So she's [snorts] not doing enough. So she's [snorts] not getting the sea legs and not getting getting the sea legs and not getting getting the sea legs and not getting comfortable with things going wrong and comfortable with things going wrong and comfortable with things going wrong and also not getting the sort of like also not getting the sort of like also not getting the sort of like swiftness to to sort of rescue them when swiftness to to sort of rescue them when swiftness to to sort of rescue them when they do. Right? You remember the Gavin they do. Right? You remember the Gavin they do. Right? You remember the Gavin Newsom thing a couple months ago where Newsom thing a couple months ago where Newsom thing a couple months ago where he's doing a book talk and he's like, he's doing a book talk and he's like, he's doing a book talk and he's like, "I'm just like you" to a mostly black "I'm just like you" to a mostly black "I'm just like you" to a mostly black audience. audience. audience. >> I'm like you.

>> I'm like you. >> I'm like you. I know better than you. I know better than you. I know better than you. You know, I'm a 960 SAT guy. You know, I'm a 960 SAT guy. You know, I'm a 960 SAT guy. Huh. Huh. Huh. >> It's like my SAT sucked and I can barely >> It's like my SAT sucked and I can barely >> It's like my SAT sucked and I can barely [laughter] read. [laughter] read. [laughter] read. >> barely read, yeah. >> barely read, yeah. >> barely read, yeah. >> Like it looked really bad. It was >> Like it looked really bad. It was >> Like it looked really bad. It was everywhere for a couple days and he just everywhere for a couple days and he just everywhere for a couple days and he just he just keeps moving forward. he just keeps moving forward. he just keeps moving forward. >> Partly though I think all of these >> Partly though I think all of these >> Partly though I think all of these calculations about risk reward, control, calculations about risk reward, control, calculations about risk reward, control, lack of control, how much you're going lack of control, how much you're going lack of control, how much you're going in is in is in is is what your own personal is what your own personal is what your own personal position is with respect to attention, position is with respect to attention, position is with respect to attention, right? Because she is so commanding of right? Because she is so commanding of right? Because she is so commanding of it. it. it. She has the luxury to take much more She has the luxury to take much more She has the luxury to take much more sort of conservative stances about what sort of conservative stances about what sort of conservative stances about what press she does. press she does. press she does. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think that's a trade-off. I agree >> And I think that's a trade-off. I agree >> And I think that's a trade-off. I agree with you that like there's probably a with you that like there's probably a with you that like there's probably a degree to which more would be better degree to which more would be better degree to which more would be better >> doesn't need to do a lot of interviews. >> doesn't need to do a lot of interviews. >> doesn't need to do a lot of interviews. >> Exactly. That's exactly it. But she just >> Exactly. That's exactly it. But she just >> Exactly. That's exactly it. But she just doesn't have to go Yeah, whereas Ro doesn't have to go Yeah, whereas Ro doesn't have to go Yeah, whereas Ro Khanna is everywhere. Khanna is everywhere. Khanna is everywhere. >> like yeah, Ro Khanna is everywhere >> like yeah, Ro Khanna is everywhere >> like yeah, Ro Khanna is everywhere because he is trying to build because he is trying to build because he is trying to build >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> like attentional strength. I want to >> like attentional strength. I want to >> like attentional strength. I want to move to Michigan. move to Michigan. move to Michigan. Uh whoa. Let's start here. Do you want Uh whoa. Let's start here. Do you want Uh whoa. Let's start here. Do you want to just give a overview of the Michigan to just give a overview of the Michigan to just give a overview of the Michigan Senate Democratic primary?

Senate Democratic primary? Senate Democratic primary? >> I mean, you have a situation in which >> I mean, you have a situation in which >> I mean, you have a situation in which you have a departing incumbent you have a departing incumbent you have a departing incumbent Democratic senator Democratic senator Democratic senator Gary Peters who's retiring. So you have Gary Peters who's retiring. So you have Gary Peters who's retiring. So you have an open seat. You have a an open seat. You have a an open seat. You have a a very I would say from the Republican a very I would say from the Republican a very I would say from the Republican perspective high-quality recruit perspective high-quality recruit perspective high-quality recruit for the Republican side who is for the Republican side who is for the Republican side who is Republican Congressman Mike Rogers who Republican Congressman Mike Rogers who Republican Congressman Mike Rogers who is is is truly out of like normie Republican kind truly out of like normie Republican kind truly out of like normie Republican kind of central casting. Like if you're of central casting. Like if you're of central casting. Like if you're trying to win a swing state, he is not, trying to win a swing state, he is not, trying to win a swing state, he is not, you know, he he's not some Peter Thiel you know, he he's not some Peter Thiel you know, he he's not some Peter Thiel weirdo who's going to do an ad with his weirdo who's going to do an ad with his weirdo who's going to do an ad with his gun silencer. gun silencer. gun silencer. >> This is designed to kill people. I'm >> This is designed to kill people. I'm >> This is designed to kill people. I'm Blake Masters. [music] Blake Masters. [music] Blake Masters. [music] I'm running for the US Senate in I'm running for the US Senate in I'm running for the US Senate in Arizona. Arizona. Arizona. >> And then on the Democratic side, you've >> And then on the Democratic side, you've >> And then on the Democratic side, you've got Abdul El-Sayed who is a really got Abdul El-Sayed who is a really got Abdul El-Sayed who is a really fascinating dude who was a public health fascinating dude who was a public health fascinating dude who was a public health official in Detroit. He's a He's a official in Detroit. He's a He's a official in Detroit. He's a He's a Rhodes Scholar. Rhodes Scholar. Rhodes Scholar. >> Um MD PhD >> Um MD PhD >> Um MD PhD >> MD PhD, incredibly credentialed >> MD PhD, incredibly credentialed >> MD PhD, incredibly credentialed >> Has run has statewide and lost for >> Has run has statewide and lost for >> Has run has statewide and lost for governor. governor. governor. >> Exactly. And but is very very >> Exactly. And but is very very >> Exactly. And but is very very charismatic. Um extremely bright, too.

charismatic. Um extremely bright, too. charismatic. Um extremely bright, too. >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. I don't >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. I don't >> Had a Crooked Media podcast. I don't know if you've, know if you've, know if you've, you know, you I've spoken to him at you know, you I've spoken to him at you know, you I've spoken to him at length. He's length. He's length. He's an incredibly impressive dude. Just in an incredibly impressive dude. Just in an incredibly impressive dude. Just in terms of like he's a really smart guy terms of like he's a really smart guy terms of like he's a really smart guy who knows a lot of stuff. Um you have a who knows a lot of stuff. Um you have a who knows a lot of stuff. Um you have a state senator Mallory McMorrow um who state senator Mallory McMorrow um who state senator Mallory McMorrow um who has been kind of like a I would say like has been kind of like a I would say like has been kind of like a I would say like a charismatic up-and-comer in national a charismatic up-and-comer in national a charismatic up-and-comer in national politics even when she was a relatively politics even when she was a relatively politics even when she was a relatively obscure state rep. obscure state rep. obscure state rep. >> with this big speech she gave after >> with this big speech she gave after >> with this big speech she gave after being accused of being a groomer. being accused of being a groomer. being accused of being a groomer. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, I want to be very clear right now. >> So, I want to be very clear right now. >> So, I want to be very clear right now. Call me whatever you want. I hope you Call me whatever you want. I hope you Call me whatever you want. I hope you brought in a few dollars. I hope it made brought in a few dollars. I hope it made brought in a few dollars. I hope it made you sleep good last night. you sleep good last night. you sleep good last night. I know who I am. I know what faith and I know who I am. I know what faith and I know who I am. I know what faith and service means and what it calls for in service means and what it calls for in service means and what it calls for in this moment. this moment. this moment. We will not let hate win. We will not let hate win. We will not let hate win. >> But she also has good >> But she also has good >> But she also has good >> like good video content. [clears throat] >> like good video content. [clears throat] >> like good video content. [clears throat] >> very charismatic. >> very charismatic. >> very charismatic. >> a year ago if I were doing this, I'd be >> a year ago if I were doing this, I'd be >> a year ago if I were doing this, I'd be like Mallory McMorrow, like one of the like Mallory McMorrow, like one of the like Mallory McMorrow, like one of the big attentional like emergent big attentional like emergent big attentional like emergent attentional stars. attentional stars. attentional stars. >> And then you have the person who I think >> And then you have the person who I think >> And then you have the person who I think there's reporting to indicate that I there's reporting to indicate that I there's reporting to indicate that I think it and it's probably true that think it and it's probably true that think it and it's probably true that Haley Stevens who's a sitting Haley Stevens who's a sitting Haley Stevens who's a sitting congresswoman congresswoman congresswoman um who is I think probably the um who is I think probably the um who is I think probably the establishment choice establishment choice establishment choice >> Yeah, seems like she was recruited by >> Yeah, seems like she was recruited by >> Yeah, seems like she was recruited by the establishment in part.

the establishment in part. the establishment in part. >> Um and what's happened is >> Um and what's happened is >> Um and what's happened is she has not taken off. she has not taken off. she has not taken off. And she's not of the three candidates And she's not of the three candidates And she's not of the three candidates whatever you think about Haley Stevens' whatever you think about Haley Stevens' whatever you think about Haley Stevens' issue positions or qualifications, issue positions or qualifications, issue positions or qualifications, whether she'd be a good senator like I whether she'd be a good senator like I whether she'd be a good senator like I think she's think she's think she's the least attentionally gifted of the the least attentionally gifted of the the least attentionally gifted of the three. three. three. Um and I think the polling indicates Um and I think the polling indicates Um and I think the polling indicates that right now Abdul El-Sayed is that right now Abdul El-Sayed is that right now Abdul El-Sayed is probably in the lead. He's gotten a huge probably in the lead. He's gotten a huge probably in the lead. He's gotten a huge amount of benefit from amount of benefit from amount of benefit from sort of the the the Bernie faction of sort of the the the Bernie faction of sort of the the the Bernie faction of the party. Streamer Hasan [ __ ] who did the party. Streamer Hasan [ __ ] who did the party. Streamer Hasan [ __ ] who did a came and did a a rally with him which a came and did a a rally with him which a came and did a a rally with him which was both controversial but got a ton of was both controversial but got a ton of was both controversial but got a ton of attention. And in a first-past-the-post attention. And in a first-past-the-post attention. And in a first-past-the-post again, first-past-the-post primary split again, first-past-the-post primary split again, first-past-the-post primary split field, what do you have to get? You got field, what do you have to get? You got field, what do you have to get? You got to get to get to get 30% 35% of the vote? 38% of the vote? 30% 35% of the vote? 38% of the vote? 30% 35% of the vote? 38% of the vote? >> So, I want to talk about this primary >> So, I want to talk about this primary >> So, I want to talk about this primary because first in one way Abdul El-Sayed because first in one way Abdul El-Sayed because first in one way Abdul El-Sayed is like the opposite candidate from is like the opposite candidate from is like the opposite candidate from Gretchen Whitmer. Right? He he is Gretchen Whitmer. Right? He he is Gretchen Whitmer. Right? He he is attentionally capable but he is not a attentionally capable but he is not a attentionally capable but he is not a outside the institution right like he's outside the institution right like he's outside the institution right like he's a guy who he taught at Columbia.

a guy who he taught at Columbia. a guy who he taught at Columbia. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> A Rhodes Scholar. >> Um the ultimate brass ring of >> Um the ultimate brass ring of >> Um the ultimate brass ring of credentialing in the American credentialing in the American credentialing in the American meritocracy is worn on his hand. meritocracy is worn on his hand. meritocracy is worn on his hand. >> Yes. Uh he has run before and lost. He >> Yes. Uh he has run before and lost. He >> Yes. Uh he has run before and lost. He When people talk about candidates who When people talk about candidates who When people talk about candidates who have wanted to be in public office for a have wanted to be in public office for a have wanted to be in public office for a very long time, he is one of those very long time, he is one of those very long time, he is one of those candidates. candidates. candidates. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And >> And >> And if you like look at the polling in this if you like look at the polling in this if you like look at the polling in this race, you look at Paul Marketing Kelsey race, you look at Paul Marketing Kelsey race, you look at Paul Marketing Kelsey in this race, in this race, in this race, you can see that he did not walk in and you can see that he did not walk in and you can see that he did not walk in and start dominating it. start dominating it. start dominating it. What happened was that What happened was that What happened was that he started centering he started centering he started centering Israel and Gaza. Israel and Gaza. Israel and Gaza. Hasan [ __ ] coming was part of this. And Hasan [ __ ] coming was part of this. And Hasan [ __ ] coming was part of this. And the the role [ __ ] played in this, to the the role [ __ ] played in this, to the the role [ __ ] played in this, to me, when the way at least I observed it me, when the way at least I observed it me, when the way at least I observed it happening, is not that it was Piker's happening, is not that it was Piker's happening, is not that it was Piker's endorsement or something that mattered. endorsement or something that mattered. endorsement or something that mattered. It's that [ __ ] himself was so It's that [ __ ] himself was so It's that [ __ ] himself was so controversial controversial controversial that outside groups like Third Way that outside groups like Third Way that outside groups like Third Way and then the other two candidates and then the other two candidates and then the other two candidates attacked. attacked. attacked. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And in attacking, they centered Israel >> And in attacking, they centered Israel >> And in attacking, they centered Israel and Gaza, and Gaza, and Gaza, which turned the Like Israel and Gaza is which turned the Like Israel and Gaza is which turned the Like Israel and Gaza is like an attentional superconductor.

like an attentional superconductor. like an attentional superconductor. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, it is. it is. it is. >> Right? It is like no other issue, with >> Right? It is like no other issue, with >> Right? It is like no other issue, with the exception maybe of Donald Trump the exception maybe of Donald Trump the exception maybe of Donald Trump himself, in American life. himself, in American life. himself, in American life. And for an engaged Democratic primary And for an engaged Democratic primary And for an engaged Democratic primary electorate, electorate, electorate, Abdul El-Sayed is more on the right side Abdul El-Sayed is more on the right side Abdul El-Sayed is more on the right side of that issue. of that issue. of that issue. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so I I think you're seeing something >> And so I I think you're seeing something >> And so I I think you're seeing something that's going to be very important about that's going to be very important about that's going to be very important about attention. Like there are certain issues attention. Like there are certain issues attention. Like there are certain issues in any moment. Like his background, the in any moment. Like his background, the in any moment. Like his background, the way I came to know him as a political way I came to know him as a political way I came to know him as a political figure is Medicare for All. figure is Medicare for All. figure is Medicare for All. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? He emerges in politics, you know, >> Right? He emerges in politics, you know, >> Right? He emerges in politics, you know, Bernie Sanders guy, and like like his Bernie Sanders guy, and like like his Bernie Sanders guy, and like like his whole thing is Medicare for All. And whole thing is Medicare for All. And whole thing is Medicare for All. And like he still believes in that and the like he still believes in that and the like he still believes in that and the Listen Listen Listen >> and from a healthcare a public health >> and from a healthcare a public health >> and from a healthcare a public health perspective. perspective. perspective. >> a public health perspective. Yeah. But >> a public health perspective. Yeah. But >> a public health perspective. Yeah. But what has happened here is that there what has happened here is that there what has happened here is that there like a lot of attention on Israel and like a lot of attention on Israel and like a lot of attention on Israel and Gaza, and it has become like the Gaza, and it has become like the Gaza, and it has become like the defining issue. And and in Michigan, defining issue. And and in Michigan, defining issue. And and in Michigan, obviously very big Arab population, obviously very big Arab population, obviously very big Arab population, right? So right? So right? So >> And also the Haley Stevens component of >> And also the Haley Stevens component of >> And also the Haley Stevens component of this, right? Because I mean we should we this, right? Because I mean we should we this, right? Because I mean we should we should give the backstory here, which is should give the backstory here, which is should give the backstory here, which is that you know, [snorts] Haley Stevens that you know, [snorts] Haley Stevens that you know, [snorts] Haley Stevens primary to Andy Levin. primary to Andy Levin. primary to Andy Levin. Andy Levin was was this, you know, labor Andy Levin was was this, you know, labor Andy Levin was was this, you know, labor organizer organizer organizer and very kind of two-state solution, Israel critical, two-state solution, Israel critical, Jewish lefty, synagogue president I Jewish lefty, synagogue president I Jewish lefty, synagogue president I think. Yeah. Who was who had like who think. Yeah. Who was who had like who think. Yeah. Who was who had like who had like a ton of AIPAC money dumped on had like a ton of AIPAC money dumped on had like a ton of AIPAC money dumped on his head.

his head. his head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because he was insufficiently loyal to >> Because he was insufficiently loyal to >> Because he was insufficiently loyal to the essentially the Netanyahu line, and the essentially the Netanyahu line, and the essentially the Netanyahu line, and Stevens knocked him off as part of that Stevens knocked him off as part of that Stevens knocked him off as part of that effort. And the other thing I would say effort. And the other thing I would say effort. And the other thing I would say is, and I think this is incredibly is, and I think this is incredibly is, and I think this is incredibly dangerous for the folks who dangerous for the folks who dangerous for the folks who spend their time worrying about spend their time worrying about spend their time worrying about America's relationship to Israel and America's relationship to Israel and America's relationship to Israel and defense of Israel, defense of Israel, defense of Israel, you have a situation in which you have you have a situation in which you have you have a situation in which you have kind of stacked these different things kind of stacked these different things kind of stacked these different things atop each other, where it's like money atop each other, where it's like money atop each other, where it's like money and politics, the establishment, the and politics, the establishment, the and politics, the establishment, the failed status quo, the pro-Israel lobby, failed status quo, the pro-Israel lobby, failed status quo, the pro-Israel lobby, are all stacked atop each other, and are all stacked atop each other, and are all stacked atop each other, and very hard to disentangle. very hard to disentangle. very hard to disentangle. And so being the populist insurgent And so being the populist insurgent And so being the populist insurgent against the status quo, against the status quo, against the status quo, your criticism of Israel, your criticism your criticism of Israel, your criticism your criticism of Israel, your criticism of the war on Gaza, of the war on Gaza, of the war on Gaza, your views on that put you across these your views on that put you across these your views on that put you across these incredibly salient divides that sort of incredibly salient divides that sort of incredibly salient divides that sort of reach up and down from the actual issue reach up and down from the actual issue reach up and down from the actual issue of Gaza and of Gaza and of Gaza and >> I read a piece on this when all the >> I read a piece on this when all the >> I read a piece on this when all the attacks were centering on [ __ ] And and attacks were centering on [ __ ] And and attacks were centering on [ __ ] And and one of the points of that piece was that one of the points of that piece was that one of the points of that piece was that it is going to be very, very, very it is going to be very, very, very it is going to be very, very, very important important important to break the effort to break the effort to break the effort to conflate to conflate to conflate >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> anti-Semitism anti-Zionism. >> anti-Semitism anti-Zionism. >> anti-Semitism anti-Zionism. And it is going to only become more And it is going to only become more And it is going to only become more important as Israel's actual actions important as Israel's actual actions important as Israel's actual actions make anti-Zionism a more popular and make anti-Zionism a more popular and make anti-Zionism a more popular and like morally compelling position. like morally compelling position. like morally compelling position. >> Among among progressively minded people. >> Among among progressively minded people. >> Among among progressively minded people. >> I mean, look, you can look at polling of >> I mean, look, you can look at polling of >> I mean, look, you can look at polling of young Jews. young Jews. young Jews. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. How many of them want a one-state >> Right. How many of them want a one-state >> Right. How many of them want a one-state solution? It's pretty high now. So, I solution? It's pretty high now. So, I solution? It's pretty high now. So, I will say also, and it's worth playing will say also, and it's worth playing will say also, and it's worth playing this, I thought Abdul Sayed himself had this, I thought Abdul Sayed himself had this, I thought Abdul Sayed himself had a very, very good answer disentangling a very, very good answer disentangling a very, very good answer disentangling this. this. this. >> What do you say to the Jewish community >> What do you say to the Jewish community >> What do you say to the Jewish community who you're going to want to vote for you who you're going to want to vote for you who you're going to want to vote for you about your positions about your positions about your positions on Israel, on AIPAC funding, et cetera, on Israel, on AIPAC funding, et cetera, on Israel, on AIPAC funding, et cetera, and and how they shouldn't feel and and how they shouldn't feel and and how they shouldn't feel alienated by a candidate like you? alienated by a candidate like you? alienated by a candidate like you? >> Well, Katie, I'll tell you this. Nobody >> Well, Katie, I'll tell you this. Nobody >> Well, Katie, I'll tell you this. Nobody understands what it's like to be understands what it's like to be understands what it's like to be discriminated against for how you pray discriminated against for how you pray discriminated against for how you pray like someone who gets discriminated like someone who gets discriminated like someone who gets discriminated against for how we pray. And most of the against for how we pray. And most of the against for how we pray. And most of the time, we don't ask how we pray. Most time, we don't ask how we pray. Most time, we don't ask how we pray. Most people are asking, "What do you pray people are asking, "What do you pray people are asking, "What do you pray for?" And I pray for peace and dignity for?" And I pray for peace and dignity for?" And I pray for peace and dignity and basic goodness for all of our kids, and basic goodness for all of our kids, and basic goodness for all of our kids, whether they're Jewish kids who are whether they're Jewish kids who are whether they're Jewish kids who are neighboring couple of houses down from neighboring couple of houses down from neighboring couple of houses down from me or my kids who are Muslim. And I'll me or my kids who are Muslim. And I'll me or my kids who are Muslim. And I'll tell you that it's really important for tell you that it's really important for tell you that it's really important for us to be able to differentiate between us to be able to differentiate between us to be able to differentiate between Judaism, the Jewish people, Jewish Judaism, the Jewish people, Jewish Judaism, the Jewish people, Jewish culture, Jewish contributions to this culture, Jewish contributions to this culture, Jewish contributions to this country, which are vast, and AIPAC and country, which are vast, and AIPAC and country, which are vast, and AIPAC and Israel. Those are two different things.

Israel. Those are two different things. Israel. Those are two different things. I, when I'm elected, will be the chief I, when I'm elected, will be the chief I, when I'm elected, will be the chief opposition to what the Egyptian opposition to what the Egyptian opposition to what the Egyptian government does. Now, my family government does. Now, my family government does. Now, my family immigrated from Egypt. That doesn't make immigrated from Egypt. That doesn't make immigrated from Egypt. That doesn't make me anti-Egyptian. That just means that I me anti-Egyptian. That just means that I me anti-Egyptian. That just means that I want my tax dollars to be spent here want my tax dollars to be spent here want my tax dollars to be spent here rather than sent over there to cement rather than sent over there to cement rather than sent over there to cement the chokehold of a military dictatorship the chokehold of a military dictatorship the chokehold of a military dictatorship on its own people. And I apply the same on its own people. And I apply the same on its own people. And I apply the same exact principles to Israel. I don't want exact principles to Israel. I don't want exact principles to Israel. I don't want my tax dollars being spent to backstop my tax dollars being spent to backstop my tax dollars being spent to backstop backstop apartheid and genocide when backstop apartheid and genocide when backstop apartheid and genocide when they could be used to provide things they could be used to provide things they could be used to provide things like glasses or health care or schools like glasses or health care or schools like glasses or health care or schools for our own kids. And I worry that a lot for our own kids. And I worry that a lot for our own kids. And I worry that a lot of times people want to use the the word of times people want to use the the word of times people want to use the the word anti-Semitism to spread to defend a anti-Semitism to spread to defend a anti-Semitism to spread to defend a foreign government. And I think it's foreign government. And I think it's foreign government. And I think it's just really important for us to just really important for us to just really important for us to differentiate between those two because differentiate between those two because differentiate between those two because I don't want to be held accountable to I don't want to be held accountable to I don't want to be held accountable to what another government does simply what another government does simply what another government does simply because I share ethnicity with the because I share ethnicity with the because I share ethnicity with the people who live there. And I know the people who live there. And I know the people who live there. And I know the same for my Jewish sisters and brothers. same for my Jewish sisters and brothers. same for my Jewish sisters and brothers. I remember a sign that was put up in Los I remember a sign that was put up in Los I remember a sign that was put up in Los Angeles. I saw a picture of in 2008. Angeles. I saw a picture of in 2008. Angeles. I saw a picture of in 2008. It was on a lamp post and it was during It was on a lamp post and it was during It was on a lamp post and it was during the Hillary the Hillary the Hillary Barack primary. Barack primary. Barack primary. And the sign was a campaign sign.

And the sign was a campaign sign. And the sign was a campaign sign. And it had one sentence and it said, And it had one sentence and it said, And it had one sentence and it said, "She voted for the war." "She voted for the war." "She voted for the war." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it was like, "That's all you need to >> And it was like, "That's all you need to >> And it was like, "That's all you need to know." know." know." Like that vote for the Iraq war, that Like that vote for the Iraq war, that Like that vote for the Iraq war, that was the thing. That was the the reason was the thing. That was the the reason was the thing. That was the the reason Hillary Clinton lost that primary Hillary Clinton lost that primary Hillary Clinton lost that primary ultimately. There's a million reasons ultimately. There's a million reasons ultimately. There's a million reasons and she came very close and and she came very close and and she came very close and talk relitigate it, but that was the talk relitigate it, but that was the talk relitigate it, but that was the thing. thing. thing. >> I know a lot of uh pretty like older >> I know a lot of uh pretty like older >> I know a lot of uh pretty like older Jews who was saying to me, Jews who was saying to me, Jews who was saying to me, "I I don't understand why Israel gets so "I I don't understand why Israel gets so "I I don't understand why Israel gets so much attention. much attention. much attention. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> You know, look at >> You know, look at >> You know, look at >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> China's doing to the Uyghurs or >> China's doing to the Uyghurs or >> China's doing to the Uyghurs or And one of the things I I say I'm is it And one of the things I I say I'm is it And one of the things I I say I'm is it they are making themselves the center of they are making themselves the center of they are making themselves the center of attention, right? They they really attention, right? They they really attention, right? They they really pushed hard to have America join them in pushed hard to have America join them in pushed hard to have America join them in a war. They've expanded the scope of a war. They've expanded the scope of a war. They've expanded the scope of that war. They have allowed just that war. They have allowed just that war. They have allowed just constant, you know, in addition to constant, you know, in addition to constant, you know, in addition to Netanyahu saying he wants to annex 70% Netanyahu saying he wants to annex 70% Netanyahu saying he wants to annex 70% of Gaza, they have of Gaza, they have of Gaza, they have like allowed and enabled and protected like allowed and enabled and protected like allowed and enabled and protected and caused like a constant stream of and caused like a constant stream of and caused like a constant stream of atrocities out of the West Bank. You can atrocities out of the West Bank. You can atrocities out of the West Bank. You can it is you can support what Israel is it is you can support what Israel is it is you can support what Israel is doing, doing, doing, but I don't think you can deny that it's but I don't think you can deny that it's but I don't think you can deny that it's going to come with a tremendous cost.

going to come with a tremendous cost. going to come with a tremendous cost. And if you are not willing to have And if you are not willing to have And if you are not willing to have Israel pay the cost of its actual Israel pay the cost of its actual Israel pay the cost of its actual actions, I don't think you should be actions, I don't think you should be actions, I don't think you should be supporting its actions. supporting its actions. supporting its actions. >> I mean, let's let's talk about what >> I mean, let's let's talk about what >> I mean, let's let's talk about what happened in the Israel Day parade here happened in the Israel Day parade here happened in the Israel Day parade here in New York. in New York. in New York. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh in terms of attention. >> Uh in terms of attention. >> Uh in terms of attention. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So you've got this you've got the Israel >> So you've got this you've got the Israel >> So you've got this you've got the Israel Day parade, it's happened every year and Day parade, it's happened every year and Day parade, it's happened every year and in in the context of New York, it has in in the context of New York, it has in in the context of New York, it has been a kind of, you know, been a kind of, you know, been a kind of, you know, cross-ideological day of Jewish unity cross-ideological day of Jewish unity cross-ideological day of Jewish unity and solidarity. and solidarity. and solidarity. Now this year, it's controversial for Now this year, it's controversial for Now this year, it's controversial for reasons. The mayor's not going to attend reasons. The mayor's not going to attend reasons. The mayor's not going to attend for the first time uh in a long time. for the first time uh in a long time. for the first time uh in a long time. Other politicians will be there. Other politicians will be there. Other politicians will be there. What happens in that parade? What happens in that parade? What happens in that parade? Bezalel Smotrich, Bezalel Smotrich, Bezalel Smotrich, The most one of the most far-right The most one of the most far-right The most one of the most far-right ministers who's in the Israeli ministers who's in the Israeli ministers who's in the Israeli government, who is you know, pushed for government, who is you know, pushed for government, who is you know, pushed for along with Ben Gvir the law to along with Ben Gvir the law to along with Ben Gvir the law to execute people by hanging, who has been, execute people by hanging, who has been, execute people by hanging, who has been, you know, a proponent of the settlers you know, a proponent of the settlers you know, a proponent of the settlers and and and >> Who more than that has put out a >> Who more than that has put out a >> Who more than that has put out a functional plan for the expulsion of functional plan for the expulsion of functional plan for the expulsion of Palestinians. What what I think it is Palestinians. What what I think it is Palestinians. What what I think it is reasonable to call the ethnic cleansing reasonable to call the ethnic cleansing reasonable to call the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank.

of the West Bank. of the West Bank. >> Yes. He shows up at the Israel parade >> Yes. He shows up at the Israel parade >> Yes. He shows up at the Israel parade with a bunch of like also hardcore with a bunch of like also hardcore with a bunch of like also hardcore extremist right-wingers. extremist right-wingers. extremist right-wingers. And they And they And they >> His attentional politics. >> His attentional politics. >> His attentional politics. >> His attentional politics. And they do a >> His attentional politics. And they do a >> His attentional politics. And they do a bunch of interviews and he even says to bunch of interviews and he even says to bunch of interviews and he even says to one of the interviewers, "I love this one of the interviewers, "I love this one of the interviewers, "I love this parade. It reminds me of Jerusalem Day." parade. It reminds me of Jerusalem Day." parade. It reminds me of Jerusalem Day." Which of course is like the far-right Which of course is like the far-right Which of course is like the far-right parade that happens every year in parade that happens every year in parade that happens every year in Jerusalem where like all very extremist Jerusalem where like all very extremist Jerusalem where like all very extremist right-wing Israelis march through right-wing Israelis march through right-wing Israelis march through Jerusalem in an act of like very clear Jerusalem in an act of like very clear Jerusalem in an act of like very clear provocation. provocation. provocation. >> Yes. [laughter] Like chanting horrifying >> Yes. [laughter] Like chanting horrifying >> Yes. [laughter] Like chanting horrifying things. I mean, Jerusalem Day parade is things. I mean, Jerusalem Day parade is things. I mean, Jerusalem Day parade is a a a >> But Smotrich says this because he's >> But Smotrich says this because he's >> But Smotrich says this because he's playing his own attentional politics. playing his own attentional politics. playing his own attentional politics. But you can't It's like So then after But you can't It's like So then after But you can't It's like So then after that it's like, "Well, whose fault is it that it's like, "Well, whose fault is it that it's like, "Well, whose fault is it that people are paying attention to the that people are paying attention to the that people are paying attention to the parade?" parade?" parade?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's you know, well wait wait wait. And >> It's you know, well wait wait wait. And >> It's you know, well wait wait wait. And and you could say, "Well, he's an and you could say, "Well, he's an and you could say, "Well, he's an extremist. He doesn't represent" He's in extremist. He doesn't represent" He's in extremist. He doesn't represent" He's in the Israeli government. the Israeli government. the Israeli government. >> He's got authority over the West Bank. >> He's got authority over the West Bank. >> He's got authority over the West Bank. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It actually drives me completely insane >> It actually drives me completely insane >> It actually drives me completely insane [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and it happens all the time in and it happens all the time in and it happens all the time in conversations I'm in, but it drives me conversations I'm in, but it drives me conversations I'm in, but it drives me insane the effort to say that what the insane the effort to say that what the insane the effort to say that what the sitting cabinet ministers in Israel are sitting cabinet ministers in Israel are sitting cabinet ministers in Israel are doing is irrelevant or they're doing is irrelevant or they're doing is irrelevant or they're controversial or controversial or controversial or it is what it is.

it is what it is. it is what it is. >> There is >> There is >> There is >> They're in power. >> They're in power. >> They're in power. >> They're in power. There's also there's a >> They're in power. There's also there's a >> They're in power. There's also there's a Southern expression I love. Southern expression I love. Southern expression I love. >> It's throwing rocks and hiding hands. >> It's throwing rocks and hiding hands. >> It's throwing rocks and hiding hands. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which I love. And there's just also I >> Which I love. And there's just also I >> Which I love. And there's just also I feel like this this isn't the Israeli feel like this this isn't the Israeli feel like this this isn't the Israeli government but AIPAC and and sort of government but AIPAC and and sort of government but AIPAC and and sort of groups around them and associates super groups around them and associates super groups around them and associates super PACs. There's a lot of throwing rocks PACs. There's a lot of throwing rocks PACs. There's a lot of throwing rocks and hiding hands. and hiding hands. and hiding hands. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You've just played in a succession of >> You've just played in a succession of >> You've just played in a succession of the most expensive congressional races the most expensive congressional races the most expensive congressional races in history, like a set of record-setting in history, like a set of record-setting in history, like a set of record-setting ones. Where you have spent the money ones. Where you have spent the money ones. Where you have spent the money that have made them the most expensive. that have made them the most expensive. that have made them the most expensive. That's fine. It's America in the That's fine. It's America in the That's fine. It's America in the post-Citizens United era. People get to post-Citizens United era. People get to post-Citizens United era. People get to do that. do that. do that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What you can't do is be like, "Why is >> What you can't do is be like, "Why is >> What you can't do is be like, "Why is everyone focused on us?" [laughter] It's everyone focused on us?" [laughter] It's everyone focused on us?" [laughter] It's like you spent tens of millions of like you spent tens of millions of like you spent tens of millions of dollars to knock people out. Like you dollars to knock people out. Like you dollars to knock people out. Like you you could do one or the other. You know, you could do one or the other. You know, you could do one or the other. You know, you you you play in these races, you you you you play in these races, you you you you play in these races, you play in these races, but then you get to play in these races, but then you get to play in these races, but then you get to be criticized for it. be criticized for it. be criticized for it. >> I want to move to Texas. And I want to >> I want to move to Texas. And I want to >> I want to move to Texas. And I want to move to Texas move to Texas move to Texas >> Texas is so interesting right now. >> Texas is so interesting right now. >> Texas is so interesting right now. >> James Talarico because I think he >> James Talarico because I think he >> James Talarico because I think he he reflects maybe something different he reflects maybe something different he reflects maybe something different than what we've been talking about. He than what we've been talking about. He than what we've been talking about. He is the one case in which I think you can is the one case in which I think you can is the one case in which I think you can really see an attentional superstar who really see an attentional superstar who really see an attentional superstar who rose during this cycle rose during this cycle rose during this cycle but did not rise because he was so far but did not rise because he was so far but did not rise because he was so far left or so far right. He has I mean, I left or so far right. He has I mean, I left or so far right. He has I mean, I had him here on the show. It's a great had him here on the show. It's a great had him here on the show. It's a great interview. People should go check it interview. People should go check it interview. People should go check it out. He has out. He has out. He has bog-standard progressive politics.

bog-standard progressive politics. bog-standard progressive politics. Now, it is connected Now, it is connected Now, it is connected to a to a to a beautifully articulated Christian moral beautifully articulated Christian moral beautifully articulated Christian moral framework. framework. framework. But but he's somebody who has broken But but he's somebody who has broken But but he's somebody who has broken through attentionally not by being very through attentionally not by being very through attentionally not by being very far left far left far left >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> or very far right. Not by choosing a >> or very far right. Not by choosing a >> or very far right. Not by choosing a highly controversial issue. highly controversial issue. highly controversial issue. But actually by But actually by But actually by it it it front-loading front-loading front-loading a religiously rooted a religiously rooted a religiously rooted decency that in part got him on Joe decency that in part got him on Joe decency that in part got him on Joe Rogan's podcast Rogan's podcast Rogan's podcast and became the signal that maybe he and became the signal that maybe he and became the signal that maybe he could do something other Democrats could do something other Democrats could do something other Democrats couldn't couldn't couldn't and win Texas. So, I'm curious what and win Texas. So, I'm curious what and win Texas. So, I'm curious what you've made of him. you've made of him. you've made of him. >> Again, I would start with the thing that >> Again, I would start with the thing that >> Again, I would start with the thing that we've been saying about a number of we've been saying about a number of we've been saying about a number of these people in including Planer and I these people in including Planer and I these people in including Planer and I think Abdi Said is that he's he's think Abdi Said is that he's he's think Abdi Said is that he's he's charismatic in in again, in the ancient charismatic in in again, in the ancient charismatic in in again, in the ancient Greek sense. Um Greek sense. Um Greek sense. Um and I think obviously the the sort of and I think obviously the the sort of and I think obviously the the sort of pastoral tradition that he's coming out pastoral tradition that he's coming out pastoral tradition that he's coming out of of of means that he's both naturally means that he's both naturally means that he's both naturally charismatic and also has access to a set charismatic and also has access to a set charismatic and also has access to a set of rhetorical of rhetorical of rhetorical tools that have been developed literally tools that have been developed literally tools that have been developed literally over thousands of years over thousands of years over thousands of years >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> to grab and hold people's attention, >> to grab and hold people's attention, >> to grab and hold people's attention, right? So, I think that's a huge part of right? So, I think that's a huge part of right? So, I think that's a huge part of what's going on. And again, what's going on. And again, what's going on. And again, I think that connects to this back to I think that connects to this back to I think that connects to this back to the future theme that we keep coming the future theme that we keep coming the future theme that we keep coming back to, which is like back to, which is like back to, which is like you can't just raise money and run ads, you can't just raise money and run ads, you can't just raise money and run ads, right? If you want to be successful, you right? If you want to be successful, you right? If you want to be successful, you got to have something going on about how got to have something going on about how got to have something going on about how you grab people. And he clearly has you grab people. And he clearly has you grab people. And he clearly has that. I think you're totally right that that. I think you're totally right that that. I think you're totally right that he's a unicorn in that it's not

he's a unicorn in that it's not he's a unicorn in that it's not connected to that kind of populist connected to that kind of populist connected to that kind of populist message in the same way. He is a I think message in the same way. He is a I think message in the same way. He is a I think a populist and I think he's very much a populist and I think he's very much a populist and I think he's very much framing himself as a sort of insurgent framing himself as a sort of insurgent framing himself as a sort of insurgent outside the status quo, but he's not outside the status quo, but he's not outside the status quo, but he's not he's really not relying on any kind of he's really not relying on any kind of he's really not relying on any kind of us versus them framework. us versus them framework. us versus them framework. I mean, he does billionaires, but but I mean, he does billionaires, but but I mean, he does billionaires, but but it's rhetorical it's rhetorical it's rhetorical It's it's not the core in the way It's it's not the core in the way It's it's not the core in the way Platner and Platner is like Platner and Platner is like Platner and Platner is like >> That is Platner's thing. It's what comes >> That is Platner's thing. It's what comes >> That is Platner's thing. It's what comes out of his out of his out of his >> This guy is a former president of his >> This guy is a former president of his >> This guy is a former president of his college Democrats. college Democrats. college Democrats. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like I Like he is a different type. He >> Like I Like he is a different type. He >> Like I Like he is a different type. He is a person who has wanted to run for is a person who has wanted to run for is a person who has wanted to run for He's a Teach for America kid. Right? He's a Teach for America kid. Right? He's a Teach for America kid. Right? He's not a He's not a He's not a person who has been failed by American person who has been failed by American person who has been failed by American institutions. institutions. institutions. He is not a person who you feel harbors He is not a person who you feel harbors He is not a person who you feel harbors a great anger at the Democratic a great anger at the Democratic a great anger at the Democratic establishment. You know, he's a state establishment. You know, he's a state establishment. You know, he's a state representative. representative. representative. And And I think that's an interesting And And I think that's an interesting And And I think that's an interesting dimension of him, but he also has a dimension of him, but he also has a dimension of him, but he also has a quality that Platner does in a different quality that Platner does in a different quality that Platner does in a different way, which is that well, I don't I'm not way, which is that well, I don't I'm not way, which is that well, I don't I'm not saying he was cast in the sense that saying he was cast in the sense that saying he was cast in the sense that somebody came out and found him the way somebody came out and found him the way somebody came out and found him the way they came out and found Platner.

they came out and found Platner. they came out and found Platner. He does look like what he is. In the He does look like what he is. In the He does look like what he is. In the same way that Platner looks like what he same way that Platner looks like what he same way that Platner looks like what he is. I mean, a lot of people are oyster is. I mean, a lot of people are oyster is. I mean, a lot of people are oyster farmers or lobstermen, farmers or lobstermen, farmers or lobstermen, but they don't Like you wouldn't see but they don't Like you wouldn't see but they don't Like you wouldn't see them on the street and think, "Well, you them on the street and think, "Well, you them on the street and think, "Well, you definitely spend all your time on the definitely spend all your time on the definitely spend all your time on the water." water." water." >> Right. Yes. >> Right. Yes. >> Right. Yes. >> And >> And >> And you know, Platner looks like a seaman. you know, Platner looks like a seaman. you know, Platner looks like a seaman. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And >> And >> And Tallerico, like you would cast him Tallerico, like you would cast him Tallerico, like you would cast him >> as a pastor >> as a pastor >> as a pastor >> to play the idealistic young pastor >> to play the idealistic young pastor >> to play the idealistic young pastor >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> like rooting out corruption >> like rooting out corruption >> like rooting out corruption >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> in a complicated church >> in a complicated church >> in a complicated church >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> Um he just has the whole >> Um he just has the whole >> Um he just has the whole >> him in a scene in There Will Be Blood. >> him in a scene in There Will Be Blood. >> him in a scene in There Will Be Blood. >> And he >> And he >> And he >> Right, exactly. >> Right, exactly. >> Right, exactly. >> And he rises, you know, by >> And he rises, you know, by >> And he rises, you know, by running his social media strategy which running his social media strategy which running his social media strategy which you know, eventually gets him on on you know, eventually gets him on on you know, eventually gets him on on Rogan. And I think that he Rogan. And I think that he Rogan. And I think that he also reflects this yearning people that also reflects this yearning people that also reflects this yearning people that I think is really powerful and is I think is really powerful and is I think is really powerful and is underplayed. Which is not just for underplayed. Which is not just for underplayed. Which is not just for populism or radicalism or even populism or radicalism or even populism or radicalism or even inspiration but in the Trump era for inspiration but in the Trump era for inspiration but in the Trump era for decency. decency. decency. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. And there's a yearning for public And there's a yearning for public And there's a yearning for public virtue, which I think is a sort of funny virtue, which I think is a sort of funny virtue, which I think is a sort of funny inversion of some of the politics of inversion of some of the politics of inversion of some of the politics of our, you know, our youth and Clinton.

our, you know, our youth and Clinton. our, you know, our youth and Clinton. >> talk a lot about virtue on the show. >> talk a lot about virtue on the show. >> talk a lot about virtue on the show. >> Yeah, and I'm thinking about a lot about >> Yeah, and I'm thinking about a lot about >> Yeah, and I'm thinking about a lot about virtue. virtue. virtue. I think that's I think that's I think that's partly the experience of Trump. It's partly the experience of Trump. It's partly the experience of Trump. It's partly that I'm a middle-aged dad with partly that I'm a middle-aged dad with partly that I'm a middle-aged dad with three kids and I think a lot about moral three kids and I think a lot about moral three kids and I think a lot about moral instruction. Um and instruction. Um and instruction. Um and particularly in moral instruction in a particularly in moral instruction in a particularly in moral instruction in a world in which like the most world in which like the most world in which like the most powerful and famous figure in the powerful and famous figure in the powerful and famous figure in the country is a moral degenerate. The other country is a moral degenerate. The other country is a moral degenerate. The other thing I would say is there's these thing I would say is there's these thing I would say is there's these different There's different kind of vibratory There's different kind of vibratory levels that levels that levels that different coalitions play on and I do different coalitions play on and I do different coalitions play on and I do think that like the appeal for think that like the appeal for think that like the appeal for connection connection connection brother and sisterhood, solidarity, brother and sisterhood, solidarity, brother and sisterhood, solidarity, unity, you know, that was the thing that unity, you know, that was the thing that unity, you know, that was the thing that Barack Obama was able to marshal. Barack Obama was able to marshal. Barack Obama was able to marshal. And [snorts] And [snorts] And [snorts] that's still deep in the progressive that's still deep in the progressive that's still deep in the progressive soul, I think. I think it's deep in the soul, I think. I think it's deep in the soul, I think. I think it's deep in the American soul. American soul. American soul. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> It's the not what Donald Trump Donald >> It's the not what Donald Trump Donald >> It's the not what Donald Trump Donald Trump is totally incapable of Trump is totally incapable of Trump is totally incapable of playing in that register. playing in that register. playing in that register. I think the Republican Party I think the Republican Party I think the Republican Party increasingly in his era is incapable of increasingly in his era is incapable of increasingly in his era is incapable of playing that register. And and the last playing that register. And and the last playing that register. And and the last thing I'll say and I think this this thing I'll say and I think this this thing I'll say and I think this this applies to Jon Ossoff as well.

applies to Jon Ossoff as well. applies to Jon Ossoff as well. >> Where we're going next. >> Where we're going next. >> Where we're going next. >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. Uh Uh Uh in when you think about like what's the in when you think about like what's the in when you think about like what's the opposite of Trump? opposite of Trump? opposite of Trump? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> One [clears throat] >> One [clears throat] >> One [clears throat] typology of the opposite of Trump is a typology of the opposite of Trump is a typology of the opposite of Trump is a nice young man. nice young man. nice young man. Like what's the opposite of Trump? It's Like what's the opposite of Trump? It's Like what's the opposite of Trump? It's like a nice young man. like a nice young man. like a nice young man. >> Well, let let me hold. >> Well, let let me hold. >> Well, let let me hold. >> tell me he's a nice young man. >> tell me he's a nice young man. >> tell me he's a nice young man. >> Let let me hold before we go to Jon >> Let let me hold before we go to Jon >> Let let me hold before we go to Jon Ossoff and and the different Obama Ossoff and and the different Obama Ossoff and and the different Obama registers. registers. registers. The nice young man The nice young man The nice young man the what it means to be nice, the the what it means to be nice, the the what it means to be nice, the weakness of being nice has been the main weakness of being nice has been the main weakness of being nice has been the main form of attack. The Paxton campaign has form of attack. The Paxton campaign has form of attack. The Paxton campaign has decided to employ decided to employ decided to employ >> Like low-T O'Rourke, tofu O'Rourke, >> Like low-T O'Rourke, tofu O'Rourke, >> Like low-T O'Rourke, tofu O'Rourke, telefrigo, which now the O'Rourke telefrigo, which now the O'Rourke telefrigo, which now the O'Rourke campaign has telefrigo shirts. I think campaign has telefrigo shirts. I think campaign has telefrigo shirts. I think that one was a a Paxton mistake. But but that one was a a Paxton mistake. But but that one was a a Paxton mistake. But but the the the the weakness they think they have sensed the weakness they think they have sensed the weakness they think they have sensed is that people want strength. is that people want strength. is that people want strength. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And a nice young man >> And a nice young man >> And a nice young man who wants you to like him who wants you to like him who wants you to like him and speaks often of his own humility and speaks often of his own humility and speaks often of his own humility and has a vegan girlfriend and has a vegan girlfriend and has a vegan girlfriend is not strong enough for Texas.

is not strong enough for Texas. is not strong enough for Texas. >> I mean, that's a charitable version. >> I mean, that's a charitable version. >> I mean, that's a charitable version. They're calling him the F-slur is what They're calling him the F-slur is what They're calling him the F-slur is what they're doing. I mean I mean that you're they're doing. I mean I mean that you're they're doing. I mean I mean that you're giving a charitable version of what the giving a charitable version of what the giving a charitable version of what the actual attack is. actual attack is. actual attack is. >> Well, and and I mean and and actually >> Well, and and I mean and and actually >> Well, and and I mean and and actually quite literally like, you know, you have quite literally like, you know, you have quite literally like, you know, you have Stephen Miller saying the first Stephen Miller saying the first Stephen Miller saying the first transgender candidate, right? You know, transgender candidate, right? You know, transgender candidate, right? You know, he's a queer. It's very schoolyard all he's a queer. It's very schoolyard all he's a queer. It's very schoolyard all of that. of that. of that. >> Yes. Um we we take a step back and we >> Yes. Um we we take a step back and we >> Yes. Um we we take a step back and we >> Is it truly just like cruelty versus >> Is it truly just like cruelty versus >> Is it truly just like cruelty versus kindness? They're really They're really kindness? They're really They're really kindness? They're really They're really playing into the campaign O'Rourke playing into the campaign O'Rourke playing into the campaign O'Rourke wanted to set up. I I once heard wanted to set up. I I once heard wanted to set up. I I once heard somebody around the the Mumdani Cuomo somebody around the the Mumdani Cuomo somebody around the the Mumdani Cuomo campaign be like, "They both got the campaign be like, "They both got the campaign be like, "They both got the exact exact exact antagonist they wanted." antagonist they wanted." antagonist they wanted." >> Yeah, that's a great point. >> Yeah, that's a great point. >> Yeah, that's a great point. >> Right? And it just turned out Mumdani >> Right? And it just turned out Mumdani >> Right? And it just turned out Mumdani was right about which antagonist he was right about which antagonist he was right about which antagonist he wanted and Cuomo wasn't. wanted and Cuomo wasn't. wanted and Cuomo wasn't. >> In terms of that race and who's making >> In terms of that race and who's making >> In terms of that race and who's making the right tactical calls, we should just the right tactical calls, we should just the right tactical calls, we should just take a step back and say take a step back and say take a step back and say you know, Texas is Texas for a reason. you know, Texas is Texas for a reason. you know, Texas is Texas for a reason. And if you run a moderately competent And if you run a moderately competent And if you run a moderately competent campaign with a moderately competent campaign with a moderately competent campaign with a moderately competent candidate, you will win by five points. candidate, you will win by five points. candidate, you will win by five points. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like as a Republican. >> Like as a Republican. >> Like as a Republican. >> As a Republican. It's just structurally >> As a Republican. It's just structurally >> As a Republican. It's just structurally there. So, you really got to screw there. So, you really got to screw there. So, you really got to screw things up. If not more than five points. things up. If not more than five points. things up. If not more than five points. >> Yes, I mean 10 10 to five, right? You >> Yes, I mean 10 10 to five, right? You >> Yes, I mean 10 10 to five, right? You run a bad campaign it's five. You run a run a bad campaign it's five. You run a run a bad campaign it's five. You run a miserable campaign like Ted Cruz did in miserable campaign like Ted Cruz did in miserable campaign like Ted Cruz did in 2018 in a really, really good year for 2018 in a really, really good year for 2018 in a really, really good year for Democrats, you win by two. What I would Democrats, you win by two. What I would Democrats, you win by two. What I would say is about Paxton say is about Paxton say is about Paxton is that he's kind of the worst of all is that he's kind of the worst of all is that he's kind of the worst of all worlds in this way, which is that Ken worlds in this way, which is that Ken worlds in this way, which is that Ken Paxton is someone with a lot of baggage.

Paxton is someone with a lot of baggage. Paxton is someone with a lot of baggage. He was impeached by a you know, He was impeached by a you know, He was impeached by a you know, supermajority Republican state supermajority Republican state supermajority Republican state legislature for corruption. He was legislature for corruption. He was legislature for corruption. He was indicted for securities crimes, although indicted for securities crimes, although indicted for securities crimes, although not convicted. He was also not convicted not convicted. He was also not convicted not convicted. He was also not convicted on his impeachment. His wife recently on his impeachment. His wife recently on his impeachment. His wife recently divorced him for what she called were divorced him for what she called were divorced him for what she called were biblical reasons. There were a number of biblical reasons. There were a number of biblical reasons. There were a number of his ex-staffers who came out with a his ex-staffers who came out with a his ex-staffers who came out with a a statement where they talked about um a statement where they talked about um a statement where they talked about um just how um just how um just how um awful he was as a boss and in his public awful he was as a boss and in his public awful he was as a boss and in his public positions. I've covered Ken Paxton a ton positions. I've covered Ken Paxton a ton positions. I've covered Ken Paxton a ton in my journalism career. in my journalism career. in my journalism career. You don't hear him talk that much. This You don't hear him talk that much. This You don't hear him talk that much. This is not a super charismatic guy. is not a super charismatic guy. is not a super charismatic guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He's got all the baggage and none of the >> He's got all the baggage and none of the >> He's got all the baggage and none of the charisma. It's a weird combination of charisma. It's a weird combination of charisma. It's a weird combination of things, but he's there's it's not like things, but he's there's it's not like things, but he's there's it's not like there's some amazing magnetism on the there's some amazing magnetism on the there's some amazing magnetism on the other side of it. So, other side of it. So, other side of it. So, if you were setting up the worst kind of if you were setting up the worst kind of if you were setting up the worst kind of candidate in this era who's got the kind candidate in this era who's got the kind candidate in this era who's got the kind of all the negatives of sort of of all the negatives of sort of of all the negatives of sort of high-risk attentional strategies and high-risk attentional strategies and high-risk attentional strategies and none of the positives, it kind of is Ken none of the positives, it kind of is Ken none of the positives, it kind of is Ken Paxton. Paxton. Paxton. >> Yes. But this is where I think there's >> Yes. But this is where I think there's >> Yes. But this is where I think there's like just something genuinely like just something genuinely like just something genuinely interesting about TeleRico because interesting about TeleRico because interesting about TeleRico because he to me shows he to me shows he to me shows there's actually a lot of pathways in there's actually a lot of pathways in there's actually a lot of pathways in to breaking out attentionally. It's to breaking out attentionally. It's to breaking out attentionally. It's generally interesting that TeleRico is generally interesting that TeleRico is generally interesting that TeleRico is able to beat um Jasmine Crockett, who is able to beat um Jasmine Crockett, who is able to beat um Jasmine Crockett, who is also like also like also like big MSNBC figure. Jasmine Crockett is big MSNBC figure. Jasmine Crockett is big MSNBC figure. Jasmine Crockett is the way I'd put it.

the way I'd put it. the way I'd put it. >> big on viral video and is not >> big on viral video and is not >> big on viral video and is not super guarded and talky-pointy, you super guarded and talky-pointy, you super guarded and talky-pointy, you know, that that and I think that's a know, that that and I think that's a know, that that and I think that's a good attribute and it you know, he beat good attribute and it you know, he beat good attribute and it you know, he beat her in that primary. her in that primary. her in that primary. >> But it it it goes to show I think that >> But it it it goes to show I think that >> But it it it goes to show I think that there's probably a lot of different there's probably a lot of different there's probably a lot of different angles that you can play here. I think angles that you can play here. I think angles that you can play here. I think one thing that these platforms sniff out one thing that these platforms sniff out one thing that these platforms sniff out and I don't know why, but podcasting, and I don't know why, but podcasting, and I don't know why, but podcasting, video, etc. video, etc. video, etc. I think they sniff out inauthenticity. I think they sniff out inauthenticity. I think they sniff out inauthenticity. That in a way that was not true when you That in a way that was not true when you That in a way that was not true when you were giving quotes in newspapers, or were giving quotes in newspapers, or were giving quotes in newspapers, or going on Meet the Press, or being on the going on Meet the Press, or being on the going on Meet the Press, or being on the nightly news. I think actually nightly news. I think actually nightly news. I think actually inauthentic figures could do perfectly inauthentic figures could do perfectly inauthentic figures could do perfectly well there. Somehow institutions, to go well there. Somehow institutions, to go well there. Somehow institutions, to go back to what we're talking about, back to what we're talking about, back to what we're talking about, institutions don't care about institutions don't care about institutions don't care about authenticity. They actually want you to authenticity. They actually want you to authenticity. They actually want you to change who you are to conform to what change who you are to conform to what change who you are to conform to what they need. they need. they need. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But these sort of anti-institutional >> But these sort of anti-institutional >> But these sort of anti-institutional spaces, spaces, spaces, >> They do. Yeah, good point. >> They do. Yeah, good point. >> They do. Yeah, good point. >> there's something about them where >> there's something about them where >> there's something about them where people, I always feel this from people people, I always feel this from people people, I always feel this from people on the show, the first thing the on the show, the first thing the on the show, the first thing the audience can sense is inauthenticity. audience can sense is inauthenticity. audience can sense is inauthenticity. The first thing they can sense is you The first thing they can sense is you The first thing they can sense is you not telling them what you really think.

not telling them what you really think. not telling them what you really think. >> Yeah, and you got to be that I think >> Yeah, and you got to be that I think >> Yeah, and you got to be that I think that's such a good point that you have that's such a good point that you have that's such a good point that you have to be to be to be you have to be some version of your you have to be some version of your you have to be some version of your actual self to figure it out. And to do actual self to figure it out. And to do actual self to figure it out. And to do and to do it right. and to do it right. and to do it right. >> Rahm Emanuel is not, in my view, likely >> Rahm Emanuel is not, in my view, likely >> Rahm Emanuel is not, in my view, likely to be the Democrats' 2028 nominee, but to be the Democrats' 2028 nominee, but to be the Democrats' 2028 nominee, but his his his somewhat unlikely presidential campaign somewhat unlikely presidential campaign somewhat unlikely presidential campaign is going to do is going to do is going to do better than I think people realize it's better than I think people realize it's better than I think people realize it's going to do in being a sort of force in going to do in being a sort of force in going to do in being a sort of force in the primary. the primary. the primary. >> Yeah, because he's >> Yeah, because he's >> Yeah, because he's >> He is fundamentally himself. >> He is fundamentally himself. >> He is fundamentally himself. >> Totally. Yes. >> Totally. Yes. >> Totally. Yes. >> In all places. >> In all places. >> In all places. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so that allows him to just sort of >> And so that allows him to just sort of >> And so that allows him to just sort of attack and run plays and be compelling. attack and run plays and be compelling. attack and run plays and be compelling. >> And also he's got the to go back to the >> And also he's got the to go back to the >> And also he's got the to go back to the risk calculation, he's got nothing to risk calculation, he's got nothing to risk calculation, he's got nothing to lose. He can say yes to everything. lose. He can say yes to everything. lose. He can say yes to everything. >> And he's a high-risk personality. >> And he's a high-risk personality. >> And he's a high-risk personality. >> Yeah, he's a high-risk personality. >> Yeah, he's a high-risk personality. >> Yeah, he's a high-risk personality. >> unusual, highly institutional figure >> unusual, highly institutional figure >> unusual, highly institutional figure >> Yeah. He's very [clears throat] >> Yeah. He's very [clears throat] >> Yeah. He's very [clears throat] high-risk. high-risk. high-risk. >> who has very, very, very high-risk >> who has very, very, very high-risk >> who has very, very, very high-risk appetites. Um speaking of 2028, uh appetites. Um speaking of 2028, uh appetites. Um speaking of 2028, uh I we talked about AOC a little bit ago, I we talked about AOC a little bit ago, I we talked about AOC a little bit ago, and I think she's one of the big figures and I think she's one of the big figures and I think she's one of the big figures here. here. here. But But But what have you made of Jon Ossoff's what have you made of Jon Ossoff's what have you made of Jon Ossoff's emergence as uh emergence as uh emergence as uh like a a cross-ideological like a a cross-ideological like a a cross-ideological 2028 dark horse, a person who I've been 2028 dark horse, a person who I've been 2028 dark horse, a person who I've been talking about for a while, but as Sam talking about for a while, but as Sam talking about for a while, but as Sam Seder [ __ ] is talking about, you know, Seder [ __ ] is talking about, you know, Seder [ __ ] is talking about, you know, the you know, Matt Yglesias is talking, the you know, Matt Yglesias is talking, the you know, Matt Yglesias is talking, right? Like, you know, Michelle Goldberg right? Like, you know, Michelle Goldberg right? Like, you know, Michelle Goldberg just did a great piece on him.

just did a great piece on him. just did a great piece on him. There's something interesting in in what There's something interesting in in what There's something interesting in in what people are projecting onto Jon Ossoff. people are projecting onto Jon Ossoff. people are projecting onto Jon Ossoff. >> I have been jokingly calling him in our >> I have been jokingly calling him in our >> I have been jokingly calling him in our team Slack the Lisan al Gaib, uh which team Slack the Lisan al Gaib, uh which team Slack the Lisan al Gaib, uh which is which is a Dune reference to to the is which is a Dune reference to to the is which is a Dune reference to to the like [laughter] the the the you know the like [laughter] the the the you know the like [laughter] the the the you know the the Chalamet figure who is the Chalamet figure who is the Chalamet figure who is essentially the kind of chosen one, essentially the kind of chosen one, essentially the kind of chosen one, right? The the the foretold prophet. right? The the the foretold prophet. right? The the the foretold prophet. This is a joke, just to be clear. And This is a joke, just to be clear. And This is a joke, just to be clear. And the reason that I use that is the reason that I use that is the reason that I use that is >> Jewish Kennedy, man. >> Jewish Kennedy, man. >> Jewish Kennedy, man. >> There is something about >> There is something about >> There is something about the the way that he is performing the the way that he is performing the the way that he is performing his candidacy, the social media videos his candidacy, the social media videos his candidacy, the social media videos that putting out, the fact that he is that putting out, the fact that he is that putting out, the fact that he is very conventionally handsome and young very conventionally handsome and young very conventionally handsome and young and could be in a movie. Like AOC, he's and could be in a movie. Like AOC, he's and could be in a movie. Like AOC, he's very controlled in his media. very controlled in his media. very controlled in his media. >> Yeah, he's not playing a volume game. >> Yeah, he's not playing a volume game. >> Yeah, he's not playing a volume game. >> Not playing a volume >> Not playing a volume >> Not playing a volume >> see him on podcast interviews right now. >> see him on podcast interviews right now. >> see him on podcast interviews right now. >> No. That not playing a volume game. >> No. That not playing a volume game. >> No. That not playing a volume game. I think that he I think that he I think that he has figured [clears throat] out a way has figured [clears throat] out a way has figured [clears throat] out a way in a broadly palatable in a broadly palatable in a broadly palatable ideological fashion to leverage a ideological fashion to leverage a ideological fashion to leverage a populist moral critique of the rot of populist moral critique of the rot of populist moral critique of the rot of Trump Trump Trump that can appeal across the different that can appeal across the different that can appeal across the different Democratic factions, which is important.

Democratic factions, which is important. Democratic factions, which is important. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But also, he's running for re-election >> But also, he's running for re-election >> But also, he's running for re-election in a swing state and is right now in a swing state and is right now in a swing state and is right now polling polling polling very well. We'll see what happens. very well. We'll see what happens. very well. We'll see what happens. But But But if you back up a couple years, if I said if you back up a couple years, if I said if you back up a couple years, if I said to you in 2024, to you in 2024, to you in 2024, which of the or 2022 or whatever, um which of the or 2022 or whatever, um which of the or 2022 or whatever, um which of Georgia's Democratic senators which of Georgia's Democratic senators which of Georgia's Democratic senators is everybody going to be talking about is everybody going to be talking about is everybody going to be talking about in 2026 in 2026 in 2026 as a 2028 as a 2028 as a 2028 savior? savior? savior? I think the answer would be in Raphael I think the answer would be in Raphael I think the answer would be in Raphael Warnock. Warnock. Warnock. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> And instead, >> And instead, >> And instead, Ossoff Ossoff Ossoff >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> is the one people are talking about. And >> is the one people are talking about. And >> is the one people are talking about. And and I was looking at Raphael Warnock's and I was looking at Raphael Warnock's and I was looking at Raphael Warnock's YouTube page cuz he's doing content. YouTube page cuz he's doing content. YouTube page cuz he's doing content. But But But it doesn't have it doesn't have it doesn't have any of the visual grammar. One thing any of the visual grammar. One thing any of the visual grammar. One thing that, you know, you see in a Mumdani, that, you know, you see in a Mumdani, that, you know, you see in a Mumdani, you see in a Jon Ossoff, you see in a you see in a Jon Ossoff, you see in a you see in a Jon Ossoff, you see in a James Tallarico, is we This is not just James Tallarico, is we This is not just James Tallarico, is we This is not just a like a an age of algorithms, it's a like a an age of algorithms, it's a like a an age of algorithms, it's visual. visual. visual. >> Very visual. >> Very visual. >> Very visual. >> And, you know, you'll see Warnock and >> And, you know, you'll see Warnock and >> And, you know, you'll see Warnock and he's like talking in, you know, the he's like talking in, you know, the he's like talking in, you know, the Senate press conference setups and he's Senate press conference setups and he's Senate press conference setups and he's just like in front of American flags and just like in front of American flags and just like in front of American flags and and Ossoff and Ossoff and Ossoff they've figured out you you know the they've figured out you you know the they've figured out you you know the clip like immediately when you see it.

clip like immediately when you see it. clip like immediately when you see it. And Ossoff used to be a documentarian And Ossoff used to be a documentarian And Ossoff used to be a documentarian who did documentaries on international who did documentaries on international who did documentaries on international corruption. So, there's a background corruption. So, there's a background corruption. So, there's a background here. This guy actually knows how to here. This guy actually knows how to here. This guy actually knows how to create TV create TV create TV >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> about corruption. >> about corruption. >> about corruption. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But there's something really interesting >> But there's something really interesting >> But there's something really interesting to me to me to me about about about you know, first the scarcity, that the you know, first the scarcity, that the you know, first the scarcity, that the creating want. This who is Jon Ossoff, creating want. This who is Jon Ossoff, creating want. This who is Jon Ossoff, this building anticipation. this building anticipation. this building anticipation. Um Um Um plus this figuring out plus this figuring out plus this figuring out of a visual grammar of a visual grammar of a visual grammar >> that's distinct and wholly your own. >> that's distinct and wholly your own. >> that's distinct and wholly your own. >> and looks like Obama. >> and looks like Obama. >> and looks like Obama. >> Yes, it does look like Obama. >> Yes, it does look like Obama. >> Yes, it does look like Obama. >> like >> like >> like >> the hero shot. It's always a hero shot. >> the hero shot. It's always a hero shot. >> the hero shot. It's always a hero shot. Which was a constant You remember there Which was a constant You remember there Which was a constant You remember there was an You got to be skinny for that to was an You got to be skinny for that to was an You got to be skinny for that to work. I just want it for anyone else work. I just want it for anyone else work. I just want it for anyone else who's taking notes out there in who's taking notes out there in who's taking notes out there in production. You got to be pretty thin production. You got to be pretty thin production. You got to be pretty thin for that hero shot. for that hero shot. for that hero shot. >> a great the hero shot being this sort of >> a great the hero shot being this sort of >> a great the hero shot being this sort of three quarters upwards angle. three quarters upwards angle. three quarters upwards angle. >> Upward, yeah. >> Upward, yeah. >> Upward, yeah. >> And otherwise you get a lot of chin. >> And otherwise you get a lot of chin. >> And otherwise you get a lot of chin. >> Yeah, you get a lot of chin. >> Yeah, you get a lot of chin. >> Yeah, you get a lot of chin. >> And there was this great uh the article >> And there was this great uh the article >> And there was this great uh the article on Obama uh where he said something like on Obama uh where he said something like on Obama uh where he said something like Obama accidentally stares too far into Obama accidentally stares too far into Obama accidentally stares too far into future. future. future. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Because he was he was >> Because he was he was >> Because he was he was >> very good at this.

>> very good at this. >> very good at this. >> Ossoff shot is always >> Ossoff shot is always >> Ossoff shot is always >> It's always like this like he doesn't >> It's always like this like he doesn't >> It's always like this like he doesn't seem like he's looking at a crowd. seem like he's looking at a crowd. seem like he's looking at a crowd. >> Yeah. He's looking at past the crowd. >> Yeah. He's looking at past the crowd. >> Yeah. He's looking at past the crowd. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> No, you're right. And I do think it's >> No, you're right. And I do think it's >> No, you're right. And I do think it's true that kind of visual branding is so true that kind of visual branding is so true that kind of visual branding is so interesting. interesting. interesting. There's one other dimension of Ossoff There's one other dimension of Ossoff There's one other dimension of Ossoff that I think is really worth mentioning that I think is really worth mentioning that I think is really worth mentioning in terms of 2028. Um in terms of 2028. Um in terms of 2028. Um and which is that he's Jewish. and which is that he's Jewish. and which is that he's Jewish. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And >> And >> And >> and a genuine Israel critic. >> and a genuine Israel critic. >> and a genuine Israel critic. >> This See, this is so >> This See, this is so >> This See, this is so I think I think I think to go back to what we were saying about to go back to what we were saying about to go back to what we were saying about that Michigan race, that Michigan race, that Michigan race, there's no way of getting around the there's no way of getting around the there's no way of getting around the fractures in the party on Gaza, Israel, fractures in the party on Gaza, Israel, fractures in the party on Gaza, Israel, perceptions of anti-Semitism, perceptions of anti-Semitism, perceptions of anti-Semitism, perceptions of perceptions of perceptions of undue influence by the Israel lobby, undue influence by the Israel lobby, undue influence by the Israel lobby, like like like the coalition contains both elements. the coalition contains both elements. the coalition contains both elements. And someone's going to have to figure And someone's going to have to figure And someone's going to have to figure out how to thread that needle. out how to thread that needle. out how to thread that needle. And if I were if you were asking me what And if I were if you were asking me what And if I were if you were asking me what that person might look like, that person might look like, that person might look like, I would say I would say I would say the first Jewish nominee in history who the first Jewish nominee in history who the first Jewish nominee in history who is also a critic of Israel would be one is also a critic of Israel would be one is also a critic of Israel would be one recipe recipe recipe to thread a very difficult needle for to thread a very difficult needle for to thread a very difficult needle for the the coalition.

the the coalition. the the coalition. >> the point here is that Ossoff has >> the point here is that Ossoff has >> the point here is that Ossoff has substance on this. So, he early on substance on this. So, he early on substance on this. So, he early on signed onto a Bernie Sanders letter that signed onto a Bernie Sanders letter that signed onto a Bernie Sanders letter that I think only had 19 I think only had 19 I think only had 19 >> Yes, very like with a small group. It >> Yes, very like with a small group. It >> Yes, very like with a small group. It wasn't big. wasn't big. wasn't big. >> that was against sending more arms to >> that was against sending more arms to >> that was against sending more arms to Israel Israel Israel given the level of humanitarian given the level of humanitarian given the level of humanitarian devastation that was currently being devastation that was currently being devastation that was currently being inflicted by Israel upon Gaza. inflicted by Israel upon Gaza. inflicted by Israel upon Gaza. Um, my colleague Michelle Goldberg had a Um, my colleague Michelle Goldberg had a Um, my colleague Michelle Goldberg had a great profile of him and you know, she great profile of him and you know, she great profile of him and you know, she she mentions like a Haaretz piece which she mentions like a Haaretz piece which she mentions like a Haaretz piece which is like the liberal Israeli newspaper is like the liberal Israeli newspaper is like the liberal Israeli newspaper saying, "Well, this position is going to saying, "Well, this position is going to saying, "Well, this position is going to make it much harder for Ossoff to win in make it much harder for Ossoff to win in make it much harder for Ossoff to win in in in Georgia." And no, it put Ossoff in in in Georgia." And no, it put Ossoff in in in Georgia." And no, it put Ossoff in position position position to actually navigate this in a way the to actually navigate this in a way the to actually navigate this in a way the others others others are going to have a lot of trouble with. are going to have a lot of trouble with. are going to have a lot of trouble with. Josh Shapiro is going to have a lot of Josh Shapiro is going to have a lot of Josh Shapiro is going to have a lot of trouble here, is already having a lot of trouble here, is already having a lot of trouble here, is already having a lot of trouble here. And you know, but if you trouble here. And you know, but if you trouble here. And you know, but if you go too far to the other side, you're go too far to the other side, you're go too far to the other side, you're going to have right, you're going to going to have right, you're going to going to have right, you're going to need somebody who can represent both need somebody who can represent both need somebody who can represent both sides of the divide at once. And Ossoff, sides of the divide at once. And Ossoff, sides of the divide at once. And Ossoff, who is one centering on a corruption who is one centering on a corruption who is one centering on a corruption story, story, story, who is two centering on who is two centering on who is two centering on a he moves the corruption critique a he moves the corruption critique a he moves the corruption critique into an argument for liberal pluralism.

into an argument for liberal pluralism. into an argument for liberal pluralism. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? It's sort of a populist critique >> Right? It's sort of a populist critique >> Right? It's sort of a populist critique with a liberal pluralist answer. with a liberal pluralist answer. with a liberal pluralist answer. Right? Talks a lot about values. Talks a Right? Talks a lot about values. Talks a Right? Talks a lot about values. Talks a lot about being rooted in the civil lot about being rooted in the civil lot about being rooted in the civil rights movement. Um and then is able to rights movement. Um and then is able to rights movement. Um and then is able to navigate this navigate this navigate this dimension of the party's schism. dimension of the party's schism. dimension of the party's schism. >> He's also done something on corruption >> He's also done something on corruption >> He's also done something on corruption that I have struggled to do and I don't that I have struggled to do and I don't that I have struggled to do and I don't know if you felt the same way. know if you felt the same way. know if you felt the same way. I I I The corruption is so overwhelming. And you can hear in my voice right now, And you can hear in my voice right now, like so like so like so it leaves me speechless. It's so brazen. it leaves me speechless. It's so brazen. it leaves me speechless. It's so brazen. It's so insane. Every single day I It's so insane. Every single day I It's so insane. Every single day I discover some new story that is like discover some new story that is like discover some new story that is like would have been the end of any other would have been the end of any other would have been the end of any other politician I've covered. Ossoff has politician I've covered. Ossoff has politician I've covered. Ossoff has figured out how to tell that story very, figured out how to tell that story very, figured out how to tell that story very, very well. very well. very well. But one reason is it he often But one reason is it he often But one reason is it he often he moves it to be as about Donald Trump he moves it to be as about Donald Trump he moves it to be as about Donald Trump and also about the Democratic Party, and also about the Democratic Party, and also about the Democratic Party, also about the existing institutions, also about the existing institutions, also about the existing institutions, right? right? right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. See, I get why people voted for him. See, I get why people voted for him. See, I get why people voted for him. Because Because Because even before he came on the scene, even before he came on the scene, even before he came on the scene, America had the most corrupt political America had the most corrupt political America had the most corrupt political system in the Western world.

system in the Western world. system in the Western world. It's been running on corporate money, It's been running on corporate money, It's been running on corporate money, secret money, billionaire money. secret money, billionaire money. secret money, billionaire money. Both sides. And it's worse than ever now. And it's worse than ever now. Citizens United was the worst court Citizens United was the worst court Citizens United was the worst court decision in modern American history. >> [cheering] >> [cheering] [applause] >> And and when members of Congress aren't >> And and when members of Congress aren't begging for money from lobbyists, begging for money from lobbyists, begging for money from lobbyists, they're trying to dodge getting carpet they're trying to dodge getting carpet they're trying to dodge getting carpet bombed by these super PACs. bombed by these super PACs. bombed by these super PACs. And see, this is why nothing works for And see, this is why nothing works for And see, this is why nothing works for ordinary people. It's not because of ordinary people. It's not because of ordinary people. It's not because of woke college kids or trans students or woke college kids or trans students or woke college kids or trans students or because there are interracial couples in because there are interracial couples in because there are interracial couples in serial commercials. It's because the people's elected It's because the people's elected representatives don't represent the representatives don't represent the representatives don't represent the people. They represent the donors. >> There's a >> There's a credibility he's very careful always to credibility he's very careful always to credibility he's very careful always to do this, which again is another Obama do this, which again is another Obama do this, which again is another Obama move.

move. move. Obama would always include an argument Obama would always include an argument Obama would always include an argument from the other side from the other side from the other side >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> in the argument he was making. >> in the argument he was making. >> in the argument he was making. >> Always. >> Always. >> Always. >> Always. It was >> Always. It was >> Always. It was >> People say >> People say >> People say >> Yeah, right? And he does that, right? >> Yeah, right? And he does that, right? >> Yeah, right? And he does that, right? You know, both sides. And he's very very You know, both sides. And he's very very You know, both sides. And he's very very careful to make this a critique of the careful to make this a critique of the careful to make this a critique of the system itself system itself system itself >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> of which Donald Trump is taking >> of which Donald Trump is taking >> of which Donald Trump is taking advantage of it, but is not its advantage of it, but is not its advantage of it, but is not its originating cause. originating cause. originating cause. >> Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's also part >> Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's also part >> Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's also part of again of again of again it does help to it does help to it does help to I've I've I've it helps to be getting your reps before it helps to be getting your reps before it helps to be getting your reps before the Georgia electorate. Yeah, you know, the Georgia electorate. Yeah, you know, the Georgia electorate. Yeah, you know, it's like comedians it's like comedians it's like comedians politicians are like comedians. You work politicians are like comedians. You work politicians are like comedians. You work the room. You see where your laugh lines the room. You see where your laugh lines the room. You see where your laugh lines are. are. are. You you work different rooms. You work You you work different rooms. You work You you work different rooms. You work larger larger rooms. And the room larger larger rooms. And the room larger larger rooms. And the room matters a lot. And what you what the matters a lot. And what you what the matters a lot. And what you what the feedback you get from the room is it feedback you get from the room is it feedback you get from the room is it matters a lot. matters a lot. matters a lot. It helps to be in a context where the It helps to be in a context where the It helps to be in a context where the room that you're working is a Georgia room that you're working is a Georgia room that you're working is a Georgia elector. I I think this was true of elector. I I think this was true of elector. I I think this was true of Bernie Sanders in Bernie Sanders in Bernie Sanders in >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> in Vermont where, you know, he only got >> in Vermont where, you know, he only got >> in Vermont where, you know, he only got to where he was after to where he was after to where he was after many failures, many electoral failures, many failures, many electoral failures, many failures, many electoral failures, many years in the electoral wilderness many years in the electoral wilderness many years in the electoral wilderness by figuring out how to talk to the by figuring out how to talk to the by figuring out how to talk to the median Vermont voter who was not a median Vermont voter who was not a median Vermont voter who was not a committed ideological socialist.

committed ideological socialist. committed ideological socialist. >> It's why Barack Obama was as good as he >> It's why Barack Obama was as good as he >> It's why Barack Obama was as good as he was because he was a black politician was because he was a black politician was because he was a black politician who had to work white rooms. who had to work white rooms. who had to work white rooms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and he's talked about that how >> You know, and he's talked about that how >> You know, and he's talked about that how much he had to do in you know, to win much he had to do in you know, to win much he had to do in you know, to win statewide in Illinois to to win in these statewide in Illinois to to win in these statewide in Illinois to to win in these rural areas where people were very rural areas where people were very rural areas where people were very skeptical skeptical skeptical of a person named Barack Hussein Obama of a person named Barack Hussein Obama of a person named Barack Hussein Obama in 2004. in 2004. in 2004. The The other thing that I think is The The other thing that I think is The The other thing that I think is worth touching here. One thing I see worth touching here. One thing I see worth touching here. One thing I see among Democrats right now is they're all among Democrats right now is they're all among Democrats right now is they're all competing to prove they're the fighter. competing to prove they're the fighter. competing to prove they're the fighter. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And relatively few are working in the >> And relatively few are working in the >> And relatively few are working in the more inspirational side of the more inspirational side of the more inspirational side of the tradition. tradition. tradition. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That you look at Newsom, you look at >> That you look at Newsom, you look at >> That you look at Newsom, you look at AOC, you look at um Pritzker, right? AOC, you look at um Pritzker, right? AOC, you look at um Pritzker, right? Like they're all like, "I am your Like they're all like, "I am your Like they're all like, "I am your brawler." brawler." brawler." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? I will rip their throats out for >> Right? I will rip their throats out for >> Right? I will rip their throats out for you. you. you. Um Um Um and Ossoff, even though what we sort of and Ossoff, even though what we sort of and Ossoff, even though what we sort of attacking corruption, attacking corruption, attacking corruption, he is not in that mode at all. It's a he is not in that mode at all. It's a he is not in that mode at all. It's a different register. There's a There's a different register. There's a There's a different register. There's a There's a type of Democrat type of Democrat type of Democrat who who who even if they have learned to suppress even if they have learned to suppress even if they have learned to suppress it, it, it, their fundamental feeling at all levels their fundamental feeling at all levels their fundamental feeling at all levels is a disbelief is a disbelief is a disbelief >> believe this is happening.

>> believe this is happening. >> believe this is happening. >> that this is happening that anybody >> that this is happening that anybody >> that this is happening that anybody could like this guy, that these things could like this guy, that these things could like this guy, that these things aren't sinking him. aren't sinking him. aren't sinking him. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And he is formed in races >> And he is formed in races >> And he is formed in races >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> where that where that is not a register >> where that where that is not a register >> where that where that is not a register that that that works and you cannot works and you cannot works and you cannot a lot of Democrats have to kind of a lot of Democrats have to kind of a lot of Democrats have to kind of abstractly come to the view that there abstractly come to the view that there abstractly come to the view that there are people in this world who like Donald are people in this world who like Donald are people in this world who like Donald Trump, but they don't know any of them. Trump, but they don't know any of them. Trump, but they don't know any of them. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And if they do, they maybe cut them out >> And if they do, they maybe cut them out >> And if they do, they maybe cut them out of their lives. of their lives. of their lives. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And that is not >> And that is not >> And that is not >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jon Ossoff's world. >> Jon Ossoff's world. >> Jon Ossoff's world. >> That's That's what I mean. So, he's >> That's That's what I mean. So, he's >> That's That's what I mean. So, he's formed fully He's formed fully in an formed fully He's formed fully in an formed fully He's formed fully in an environment in which the appeal of Trump environment in which the appeal of Trump environment in which the appeal of Trump and Trump's power over the electorate and Trump's power over the electorate and Trump's power over the electorate and Trump's power over specific people and Trump's power over specific people and Trump's power over specific people that that that are that he has to win over or whose are that he has to win over or whose are that he has to win over or whose family members he has to win over is family members he has to win over is family members he has to win over is present from the beginning. present from the beginning. present from the beginning. And I think there's something really And I think there's something really And I think there's something really useful and powerful about that. For just useful and powerful about that. For just useful and powerful about that. For just again, how you train. again, how you train. again, how you train. >> But if you look at polling, >> But if you look at polling, >> But if you look at polling, um um um and if you probably now look at the and if you probably now look at the and if you probably now look at the prediction markets, prediction markets, prediction markets, polling Kamala Harris has a lead. I polling Kamala Harris has a lead. I polling Kamala Harris has a lead. I think people are skeptical that lead think people are skeptical that lead think people are skeptical that lead will lead to primary dominance, but I will lead to primary dominance, but I will lead to primary dominance, but I guess we'll see if she runs.

guess we'll see if she runs. guess we'll see if she runs. But if you look at prediction markets, But if you look at prediction markets, But if you look at prediction markets, the lead is Gavin Newsom. the lead is Gavin Newsom. the lead is Gavin Newsom. And we all knew Gavin Newsom wanted to And we all knew Gavin Newsom wanted to And we all knew Gavin Newsom wanted to run for president, I would say 6 years run for president, I would say 6 years run for president, I would say 6 years ago. I was pretty dismissive of how that ago. I was pretty dismissive of how that ago. I was pretty dismissive of how that was likely to go. was likely to go. was likely to go. You know, You know, You know, handsome white guy with a bunch of handsome white guy with a bunch of handsome white guy with a bunch of scandals from California was like not scandals from California was like not scandals from California was like not the the the not what the Democratic Party seemed to not what the Democratic Party seemed to not what the Democratic Party seemed to be looking for. be looking for. be looking for. Who he is in some ways has changed or Who he is in some ways has changed or Who he is in some ways has changed or actually in some ways maybe come closer actually in some ways maybe come closer actually in some ways maybe come closer to a core of him. to a core of him. to a core of him. What do you think about the way Newsom What do you think about the way Newsom What do you think about the way Newsom has maneuvered himself has maneuvered himself has maneuvered himself into one, attentionally capable in a way into one, attentionally capable in a way into one, attentionally capable in a way he wasn't always, he wasn't always, he wasn't always, but two, into I think it is the fairly but two, into I think it is the fairly but two, into I think it is the fairly wide consensus right now wide consensus right now wide consensus right now that he is a Democratic frontrunner for that he is a Democratic frontrunner for that he is a Democratic frontrunner for 2028. 2028. 2028. >> Um I think >> Um I think >> Um I think I have complicated feelings. I mean I I have complicated feelings. I mean I I have complicated feelings. I mean I think that there's some part of me that think that there's some part of me that think that there's some part of me that just thinks just thinks just thinks Governor of California is tough. Governor of California is tough. Governor of California is tough. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> A a tough thing to do to to win national >> A a tough thing to do to to win national >> A a tough thing to do to to win national to be the president. to be the president. to be the president. Of course New York real estate developer Of course New York real estate developer Of course New York real estate developer is also pretty tough, too, so is also pretty tough, too, so is also pretty tough, too, so what do I know?

what do I know? what do I know? Um yes, I think that I think the the Um yes, I think that I think the the Um yes, I think that I think the the choice he's made attentionally is the choice he's made attentionally is the choice he's made attentionally is the one of the most interesting, which is one of the most interesting, which is one of the most interesting, which is he was always a charismatic guy, but he he was always a charismatic guy, but he he was always a charismatic guy, but he was not he he has chosen omnipresence. was not he he has chosen omnipresence. was not he he has chosen omnipresence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> He's chosen to say yes to everything, >> He's chosen to say yes to everything, >> He's chosen to say yes to everything, he's chosen to go everywhere, he's he's chosen to go everywhere, he's he's chosen to go everywhere, he's chosen to host his own podcast, he's chosen to host his own podcast, he's chosen to host his own podcast, he's chosen to host his own podcast. chosen to host his own podcast. chosen to host his own podcast. >> had Ashley St. Clair on it. >> had Ashley St. Clair on it. >> had Ashley St. Clair on it. >> Yeah, he just had Ben Shapiro on not >> Yeah, he just had Ben Shapiro on not >> Yeah, he just had Ben Shapiro on not long ago. He's doing things you would long ago. He's doing things you would long ago. He's doing things you would not expect. not expect. not expect. >> Exactly. And I think it has produced >> Exactly. And I think it has produced >> Exactly. And I think it has produced a comfort a comfort a comfort that is really, really useful in the that is really, really useful in the that is really, really useful in the world that we live in. world that we live in. world that we live in. I think there's a question I think there's a question I think there's a question of both what of both what of both what the Democratic primary electorate wants the Democratic primary electorate wants the Democratic primary electorate wants and what the general electorate wants in and what the general electorate wants in and what the general electorate wants in relation to Donald Trump. And here's relation to Donald Trump. And here's relation to Donald Trump. And here's what I mean by this. You were talking what I mean by this. You were talking what I mean by this. You were talking about like being a fighter. about like being a fighter. about like being a fighter. And I think there's a little bit of And I think there's a little bit of And I think there's a little bit of Freddie Hampton said you don't fight Freddie Hampton said you don't fight Freddie Hampton said you don't fight fire with fire, you fight fire with fire with fire, you fight fire with fire with fire, you fight fire with water. water. water. And there's a little bit of a question And there's a little bit of a question And there's a little bit of a question between do you want to fight fire with between do you want to fight fire with between do you want to fight fire with fire or do you want to fight fire with fire or do you want to fight fire with fire or do you want to fight fire with water?

water? water? And the our fighter version like our And the our fighter version like our And the our fighter version like our brawler our Trump essentially, which I brawler our Trump essentially, which I brawler our Trump essentially, which I think is appealing to some people in the think is appealing to some people in the think is appealing to some people in the Democratic electorate, Democratic electorate, Democratic electorate, is sort of the mode is sort of the mode is sort of the mode that some Democratic politicians have that some Democratic politicians have that some Democratic politicians have gone and in some almost sort of gone and in some almost sort of gone and in some almost sort of perotic ways that Newsom has gone by perotic ways that Newsom has gone by perotic ways that Newsom has gone by doing the whole like Trump stick online. doing the whole like Trump stick online. doing the whole like Trump stick online. Okay, but let me complicate this in one Okay, but let me complicate this in one Okay, but let me complicate this in one way because it's why I find Newsom way because it's why I find Newsom way because it's why I find Newsom really interesting. Because he is doing really interesting. Because he is doing really interesting. Because he is doing more than that, I agree. Yes. more than that, I agree. Yes. more than that, I agree. Yes. >> There are two things. So, one is the >> There are two things. So, one is the >> There are two things. So, one is the number of reps he's getting, places he's number of reps he's getting, places he's number of reps he's getting, places he's going. I mean, you and I just saw him at going. I mean, you and I just saw him at going. I mean, you and I just saw him at the Cap Ideas conference. He's just the Cap Ideas conference. He's just the Cap Ideas conference. He's just gotten better. Yeah. He's gotten better gotten better. Yeah. He's gotten better gotten better. Yeah. He's gotten better faster than the others have. faster than the others have. faster than the others have. Uh, but the other thing Uh, but the other thing Uh, but the other thing I think a really big problem Democrats I think a really big problem Democrats I think a really big problem Democrats have faced since Obama is about have faced since Obama is about have faced since Obama is about describing a kind of unity describing a kind of unity describing a kind of unity that we can find as a country, a way of that we can find as a country, a way of that we can find as a country, a way of living here together despite our living here together despite our living here together despite our disagreements, despite our history, disagreements, despite our history, disagreements, despite our history, despite our differences. And Bill despite our differences. And Bill despite our differences. And Bill Clinton did a lot in this register, Clinton did a lot in this register, Clinton did a lot in this register, right? He, you know, wrote scholar but right? He, you know, wrote scholar but right? He, you know, wrote scholar but poor Arkansas boy, you know, new south.

poor Arkansas boy, you know, new south. poor Arkansas boy, you know, new south. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Obama, I mean, the master of this >> Obama, I mean, the master of this >> Obama, I mean, the master of this register. But because he was a master of register. But because he was a master of register. But because he was a master of this register, this register, this register, he somewhat destroyed the ability of he somewhat destroyed the ability of he somewhat destroyed the ability of anybody else to use it. Because if he anybody else to use it. Because if he anybody else to use it. Because if he couldn't achieve it, couldn't achieve it, couldn't achieve it, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's a good point. >> That's a good point. >> That's a good point. >> if what the Obama era cashed out into >> if what the Obama era cashed out into >> if what the Obama era cashed out into was Donald Trump was Donald Trump was Donald Trump and the division and dissolution and the division and dissolution and the division and dissolution of like the shared moral and Democratic of like the shared moral and Democratic of like the shared moral and Democratic framework we had, framework we had, framework we had, then to speak like Obama did in '04, to then to speak like Obama did in '04, to then to speak like Obama did in '04, to speak like he did in '08, becomes naive. speak like he did in '08, becomes naive. speak like he did in '08, becomes naive. Nobody's going to believe you. Nobody's going to believe you. Nobody's going to believe you. Right? Right? Right? But the weird thing Newsom is doing But the weird thing Newsom is doing But the weird thing Newsom is doing is containing this these two opposite is containing this these two opposite is containing this these two opposite ideas in himself, which is one, like, ideas in himself, which is one, like, ideas in himself, which is one, like, I'll be your brawler. I'll be your brawler. I'll be your brawler. But two, But two, But two, we will just we will just we will just disagree honestly and in public disagree honestly and in public disagree honestly and in public and continue the relationship with each and continue the relationship with each and continue the relationship with each other under those terms. You know, he'll other under those terms. You know, he'll other under those terms. You know, he'll talk to talk to talk to Charlie Kirk, you know, before Charlie Charlie Kirk, you know, before Charlie Charlie Kirk, you know, before Charlie Kirk was killed, he'll talk to Michael Kirk was killed, he'll talk to Michael Kirk was killed, he'll talk to Michael Savage, he'll talk to Ben Shapiro, he'll Savage, he'll talk to Ben Shapiro, he'll Savage, he'll talk to Ben Shapiro, he'll go to the left, and and Newsom is sort go to the left, and and Newsom is sort go to the left, and and Newsom is sort of it almost seems to me making this of it almost seems to me making this of it almost seems to me making this argument argument argument that is not that we can live here that is not that we can live here that is not that we can live here together together together in some way where our differences in some way where our differences in some way where our differences dissolve.

dissolve. dissolve. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> It's that our fights with each other can >> It's that our fights with each other can >> It's that our fights with each other can be productive. be productive. be productive. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's I hadn't >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's I hadn't >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's I hadn't thought of it in those terms before. thought of it in those terms before. thought of it in those terms before. It's a very Ezra Klein-ist It's a very Ezra Klein-ist It's a very Ezra Klein-ist >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> approach. >> approach. >> approach. I do wonder I do wonder I do wonder whether there's also a kind of whether there's also a kind of whether there's also a kind of incoherence in that incoherence in that incoherence in that >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> narratively that makes it a little >> narratively that makes it a little >> narratively that makes it a little difficult to pull off. difficult to pull off. difficult to pull off. >> think he's been able to synthesize them >> think he's been able to synthesize them >> think he's been able to synthesize them yet. I'm not sure you can, but it's why yet. I'm not sure you can, but it's why yet. I'm not sure you can, but it's why I find his campaign very interesting. I find his campaign very interesting. I find his campaign very interesting. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> He he'll often talk about the the place >> He he'll often talk about the the place >> He he'll often talk about the the place right now in his rhetoric that falls the right now in his rhetoric that falls the right now in his rhetoric that falls the most flat for me is he'll start talking most flat for me is he'll start talking most flat for me is he'll start talking about the need to be a repairer of the about the need to be a repairer of the about the need to be a repairer of the breach. Right, a repairer of the breach. breach. Right, a repairer of the breach. breach. Right, a repairer of the breach. It's biblical line. It's biblical line. It's biblical line. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And >> And >> And you don't feel it. Like, you don't feel you don't feel it. Like, you don't feel you don't feel it. Like, you don't feel how he's going to repair the breach. how he's going to repair the breach. how he's going to repair the breach. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I want to end here on the big >> I want to end here on the big >> I want to end here on the big attentional campaign that kind of ended attentional campaign that kind of ended attentional campaign that kind of ended in failure. in failure. in failure. Which was Spencer Pratt in Los Angeles. Which was Spencer Pratt in Los Angeles. Which was Spencer Pratt in Los Angeles. >> Cuz if you were online, it was like >> Cuz if you were online, it was like >> Cuz if you were online, it was like this former reality star is coming out this former reality star is coming out this former reality star is coming out of nowhere, he's got the greatest ads, of nowhere, he's got the greatest ads, of nowhere, he's got the greatest ads, you can't be on X for 5 minutes without you can't be on X for 5 minutes without you can't be on X for 5 minutes without seeing something from him, you know, seeing something from him, you know, seeing something from him, you know, he's going to you know, maybe win 50% in he's going to you know, maybe win 50% in he's going to you know, maybe win 50% in the runoff, maybe you know, maybe at the runoff, maybe you know, maybe at the runoff, maybe you know, maybe at least make the runoff.

least make the runoff. least make the runoff. But then it didn't But then it didn't But then it didn't pan out to anything. He underperformed pan out to anything. He underperformed pan out to anything. He underperformed Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. >> I think it and I think it's a great >> I think it and I think it's a great >> I think it and I think it's a great counterpoint to counterpoint to counterpoint to many of the theories I've been exposing. many of the theories I've been exposing. many of the theories I've been exposing. So, I'm glad we're talking about it So, I'm glad we're talking about it So, I'm glad we're talking about it because because because it I mean, it was a very successful it I mean, it was a very successful it I mean, it was a very successful campaign attentionally. I do think campaign attentionally. I do think campaign attentionally. I do think there's something going on. We should there's something going on. We should there's something going on. We should just say just say just say there's something going on with X right there's something going on with X right there's something going on with X right now under Elon Musk now under Elon Musk now under Elon Musk that is a little distinct to that that is a little distinct to that that is a little distinct to that platform, which is that it's become platform, which is that it's become platform, which is that it's become a kind of hermetically sealed hot house a kind of hermetically sealed hot house a kind of hermetically sealed hot house of insanity that when you enter it when of insanity that when you enter it when of insanity that when you enter it when you're not in it all the time you enter you're not in it all the time you enter you're not in it all the time you enter it you're like you guys are nuts. Yeah. it you're like you guys are nuts. Yeah. it you're like you guys are nuts. Yeah. And that's exactly the way many people And that's exactly the way many people And that's exactly the way many people felt about like what we might call kind felt about like what we might call kind felt about like what we might call kind of peak woke Twitter. So part of it I of peak woke Twitter. So part of it I of peak woke Twitter. So part of it I think is a product of how much that was think is a product of how much that was think is a product of how much that was an X candidacy. an X candidacy. an X candidacy. >> Yeah, there's also a question of what's >> Yeah, there's also a question of what's >> Yeah, there's also a question of what's real there, right? What's being clipped real there, right? What's being clipped real there, right? What's being clipped farm? farm? farm? What has a lot of bots pushing it? What has a lot of bots pushing it? What has a lot of bots pushing it? >> But the other lesson I think here it is >> But the other lesson I think here it is >> But the other lesson I think here it is never going to be the case that never going to be the case that never going to be the case that ascension is the entire story. There has ascension is the entire story. There has ascension is the entire story. There has to be something else happening. to be something else happening. to be something else happening. And I think with Pratt there was nothing And I think with Pratt there was nothing And I think with Pratt there was nothing else happening, really. There was no else happening, really. There was no else happening, really. There was no reason for that man to be mayor, first reason for that man to be mayor, first reason for that man to be mayor, first of all. What why that guy?

of all. What why that guy? of all. What why that guy? I do [snorts] think I do [snorts] think I do [snorts] think the Pratt campaign to me really is an the Pratt campaign to me really is an the Pratt campaign to me really is an object lesson in what X is at this point object lesson in what X is at this point object lesson in what X is at this point that I think would be very useful for that I think would be very useful for that I think would be very useful for everyone to internalize because you and everyone to internalize because you and everyone to internalize because you and I both remember back in the day when I both remember back in the day when I both remember back in the day when people would say Twitter is not real people would say Twitter is not real people would say Twitter is not real life. life. life. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And >> And >> And weirdly I think that's even more the weirdly I think that's even more the weirdly I think that's even more the case now under case now under case now under the algorithmic empire of one Elon Musk. the algorithmic empire of one Elon Musk. the algorithmic empire of one Elon Musk. >> I think one of the greatest advantages >> I think one of the greatest advantages >> I think one of the greatest advantages Democrats have going into 2028 Democrats have going into 2028 Democrats have going into 2028 >> being there. >> being there. >> being there. >> is it Elon Musk has >> is it Elon Musk has >> is it Elon Musk has control of Twitter. control of Twitter. control of Twitter. I think people think of this is a I think people think of this is a I think people think of this is a problem for Democrats. It's the problem for Democrats. It's the problem for Democrats. It's the opposite. Because Musk is opposite. Because Musk is opposite. Because Musk is warping Twitter warping Twitter warping Twitter towards a a hard right conspiratorial towards a a hard right conspiratorial towards a a hard right conspiratorial hermetic nature. hermetic nature. hermetic nature. And in the way that when Democrats had And in the way that when Democrats had And in the way that when Democrats had dominance over Twitter, when the dominance over Twitter, when the dominance over Twitter, when the liberals and progressives and leftists liberals and progressives and leftists liberals and progressives and leftists had dominance over Twitter had dominance over Twitter had dominance over Twitter >> to each other and saying the same thing. >> to each other and saying the same thing. >> to each other and saying the same thing. >> themselves of a bunch of ideas that were >> themselves of a bunch of ideas that were >> themselves of a bunch of ideas that were politically lethal. politically lethal. politically lethal. But they didn't understand that because But they didn't understand that because But they didn't understand that because where they were it's like to have normie where they were it's like to have normie where they were it's like to have normie opinions was politically lethal. That's opinions was politically lethal. That's opinions was politically lethal. That's how it is for the right now on Twitter.

how it is for the right now on Twitter. how it is for the right now on Twitter. And JD Vance is there and all of their And JD Vance is there and all of their And JD Vance is there and all of their staffers are there. Whereas like like staffers are there. Whereas like like staffers are there. Whereas like like the liberals and Democrats and leftists the liberals and Democrats and leftists the liberals and Democrats and leftists are are split and broken across are are split and broken across are are split and broken across different platforms. and that is different platforms. and that is different platforms. and that is genuinely an advantage. genuinely an advantage. genuinely an advantage. >> I have come to this exact same >> I have come to this exact same >> I have come to this exact same conclusion. conclusion. conclusion. >> Yeah, like Twitter, it's like it's a >> Yeah, like Twitter, it's like it's a >> Yeah, like Twitter, it's like it's a kind of a curse. Right? It makes you kind of a curse. Right? It makes you kind of a curse. Right? It makes you feel very powerful, and you pay for it. feel very powerful, and you pay for it. feel very powerful, and you pay for it. Let's end there. Always our final Let's end there. Always our final Let's end there. Always our final question. What are three books you'd question. What are three books you'd question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? recommend to the audience? recommend to the audience? >> Um so I'm going to I'll spare you my >> Um so I'm going to I'll spare you my >> Um so I'm going to I'll spare you my all my reading on Italian history, which all my reading on Italian history, which all my reading on Italian history, which I think is probably not particularly I think is probably not particularly I think is probably not particularly relevant. I read and loved Ben Lerner's relevant. I read and loved Ben Lerner's relevant. I read and loved Ben Lerner's newest transcription. I will say as newest transcription. I will say as newest transcription. I will say as someone who went to Brown, and he was in someone who went to Brown, and he was in someone who went to Brown, and he was in my class there, and I just went to my my class there, and I just went to my my class there, and I just went to my 20th reunion with Kate, who I met there. 20th reunion with Kate, who I met there. 20th reunion with Kate, who I met there. It had a particular potency for me that It had a particular potency for me that It had a particular potency for me that may not happen to the general audience. may not happen to the general audience. may not happen to the general audience. I recently read, I recently read, I recently read, and I can't believe I had never read and I can't believe I had never read and I can't believe I had never read this book, but I read The Godfather, the this book, but I read The Godfather, the this book, but I read The Godfather, the original novel by Mario Puzo. original novel by Mario Puzo. original novel by Mario Puzo. It's a combination of some really weird It's a combination of some really weird It's a combination of some really weird and truly awfully misogynistic stuff, and truly awfully misogynistic stuff, and truly awfully misogynistic stuff, but it is but it is but it is incredible how good that book is in some incredible how good that book is in some incredible how good that book is in some ways, and also ways, and also ways, and also it kind of makes you understand why the it kind of makes you understand why the it kind of makes you understand why the movie is a masterpiece. Like I didn't movie is a masterpiece. Like I didn't movie is a masterpiece. Like I didn't quite realize how faithful the movie was quite realize how faithful the movie was quite realize how faithful the movie was to the original to the original to the original source material.

source material. source material. And the last [snorts] one is a new novel And the last [snorts] one is a new novel And the last [snorts] one is a new novel that I just am about halfway through that I just am about halfway through that I just am about halfway through through someone else that I know, through someone else that I know, through someone else that I know, Courtney Mom, called Alan Oops Out, Courtney Mom, called Alan Oops Out, Courtney Mom, called Alan Oops Out, which is a great kind of which is a great kind of which is a great kind of really insightful, searing, comedic look really insightful, searing, comedic look really insightful, searing, comedic look at a Greenwich advertising executive who at a Greenwich advertising executive who at a Greenwich advertising executive who goes to live in the playhouse in his goes to live in the playhouse in his goes to live in the playhouse in his backyard. backyard. backyard. >> Chris Hayes, thank you very much. >> Chris Hayes, thank you very much. >> Chris Hayes, thank you very much. >> Thank you.