This Is Why People Hate the Government | The Ezra Klein Show

I think if you are merely looking at I think if you are merely looking at income, the lower down you go, you are income, the lower down you go, you are income, the lower down you go, you are spending more time interacting with the spending more time interacting with the spending more time interacting with the government and you're not getting the government and you're not getting the government and you're not getting the nice parts, right? Like you're not nice parts, right? Like you're not nice parts, right? Like you're not getting the oo, I'm visiting an American getting the oo, I'm visiting an American getting the oo, I'm visiting an American embassy abroad parts. You're getting the embassy abroad parts. You're getting the embassy abroad parts. You're getting the standing in line and pee in a cup parts. standing in line and pee in a cup parts. standing in line and pee in a cup parts. One of the big problems in left politics One of the big problems in left politics One of the big problems in left politics is that the very people who Democrats is that the very people who Democrats is that the very people who Democrats and liberals and socialists think should and liberals and socialists think should and liberals and socialists think should be the most excited about big new be the most excited about big new be the most excited about big new government programs meant to help them government programs meant to help them government programs meant to help them are often the least excited. are often the least excited. are often the least excited. [cheering] >> We're often voting for the party that >> We're often voting for the party that wants to cut government. wants to cut government. wants to cut government. >> It's not possible for us to take care of >> It's not possible for us to take care of >> It's not possible for us to take care of daycare, Medicaid, Medicare, all these daycare, Medicaid, Medicare, all these daycare, Medicaid, Medicare, all these individual things. And one reason for individual things. And one reason for individual things. And one reason for this, a reason I think we don't talk this, a reason I think we don't talk this, a reason I think we don't talk about nearly enough is that oftentimes about nearly enough is that oftentimes about nearly enough is that oftentimes their experience with the government is their experience with the government is their experience with the government is horrible. Their experience with horrible. Their experience with horrible. Their experience with government programs meant to help them government programs meant to help them government programs meant to help them is not just inefficient, is not just inefficient, is not just inefficient, it's punitive, it's punitive, it's punitive, it's humiliating, it's humiliating, it's humiliating, it's controlling.

it's controlling. it's controlling. That's because sometimes those programs That's because sometimes those programs That's because sometimes those programs are built to humiliate, punish, and are built to humiliate, punish, and are built to humiliate, punish, and control them. control them. control them. Annie Lowry is a staff writer at The Annie Lowry is a staff writer at The Annie Lowry is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She's the author of the new Atlantic. She's the author of the new Atlantic. She's the author of the new book, The Time Tax, [music] which is all book, The Time Tax, [music] which is all book, The Time Tax, [music] which is all about this. She's also my wife. We are about this. She's also my wife. We are about this. She's also my wife. We are married, so we talk about this a lot at married, so we talk about this a lot at married, so we talk about this a lot at home. [music] She joins me now. Annie Lowry, welcome back to the show. Annie Lowry, welcome back to the show. >> Thank you for having me. [laughter] >> Thank you for having me. [laughter] >> Thank you for having me. [laughter] So, I think people might imagine that I So, I think people might imagine that I So, I think people might imagine that I know everything about this book, know everything about this book, know everything about this book, >> but but in fact, like when you live with >> but but in fact, like when you live with >> but but in fact, like when you live with a writer, they will not let you ask a writer, they will not let you ask a writer, they will not let you ask anything about their book while they're anything about their book while they're anything about their book while they're working on it. working on it. working on it. >> Oh gosh. No. And it's also we have very >> Oh gosh. No. And it's also we have very >> Oh gosh. No. And it's also we have very different like work habits. So, I write different like work habits. So, I write different like work habits. So, I write almost exclusively between like 1000 almost exclusively between like 1000 almost exclusively between like 1000 p.m. and 4:00 a.m. which is when you are p.m. and 4:00 a.m. which is when you are p.m. and 4:00 a.m. which is when you are sleeping and getting up to [laughter] sleeping and getting up to [laughter] sleeping and getting up to [laughter] meditate because you're like a normal meditate because you're like a normal meditate because you're like a normal person. So, I feel like there's a real person. So, I feel like there's a real person. So, I feel like there's a real ships in the night quality to all of ships in the night quality to all of ships in the night quality to all of this. this. this. >> Yeah. So, this is a huge opportunity for >> Yeah. So, this is a huge opportunity for >> Yeah. So, this is a huge opportunity for [laughter] me. So to finally find out [laughter] me. So to finally find out [laughter] me. So to finally find out what this book is about. what this book is about. what this book is about. >> Yeah. No, it comes out shortly. So I'm >> Yeah. No, it comes out shortly. So I'm >> Yeah. No, it comes out shortly. So I'm glad that you'll finally be acquainted glad that you'll finally be acquainted glad that you'll finally be acquainted with it.

with it. with it. >> So I want to start simply. >> So I want to start simply. >> So I want to start simply. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's a time tax? >> What's a time tax? >> What's a time tax? The time tax is the burden of work The time tax is the burden of work The time tax is the burden of work whether that's emotional work, whether that's emotional work, whether that's emotional work, logistical work, uh you know like logistical work, uh you know like logistical work, uh you know like learning knowledge work that goes into learning knowledge work that goes into learning knowledge work that goes into any paperwork or bureaucratic process in any paperwork or bureaucratic process in any paperwork or bureaucratic process in which you are the enduser. So it's which you are the enduser. So it's which you are the enduser. So it's basically thinking of bureaucracy's basically thinking of bureaucracy's basically thinking of bureaucracy's effect on the people who are being effect on the people who are being effect on the people who are being bureaucratized. bureaucratized. bureaucratized. you you're sort of describing them here you you're sort of describing them here you you're sort of describing them here as irksome, but you sometimes have as irksome, but you sometimes have as irksome, but you sometimes have another definition of it I've heard you another definition of it I've heard you another definition of it I've heard you use, which I always find very vivid use, which I always find very vivid use, which I always find very vivid where you describe the time text as where you describe the time text as where you describe the time text as administrative burdens as a tool of administrative burdens as a tool of administrative burdens as a tool of social control. social control. social control. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What do you mean by control there? >> What do you mean by control there? >> What do you mean by control there? >> These things seem neutral. There's this >> These things seem neutral. There's this >> These things seem neutral. There's this understanding, right? If you're going to understanding, right? If you're going to understanding, right? If you're going to get something, there's going to be some get something, there's going to be some get something, there's going to be some paperwork, paperwork, paperwork, but these are not infrequently but these are not infrequently but these are not infrequently purposeful. They are designed to make purposeful. They are designed to make purposeful. They are designed to make people feel good about themselves in people feel good about themselves in people feel good about themselves in their relationship visa v the government their relationship visa v the government their relationship visa v the government or feel bad about themselves in their or feel bad about themselves in their or feel bad about themselves in their relationship visa v the government. So relationship visa v the government. So relationship visa v the government. So they're one of the ways that we they're one of the ways that we they're one of the ways that we construct class. Uh they're a way that construct class. Uh they're a way that construct class. Uh they're a way that we make sure that people can get we make sure that people can get we make sure that people can get something and make sure that some people something and make sure that some people something and make sure that some people can't. So the way that I think of them can't. So the way that I think of them can't. So the way that I think of them is that they are a regressive filter on is that they are a regressive filter on is that they are a regressive filter on progressive policies. It's out there, progressive policies. It's out there, progressive policies. It's out there, but it's going to be so hard to get that but it's going to be so hard to get that but it's going to be so hard to get that a lot of people aren't going to get it.

a lot of people aren't going to get it. a lot of people aren't going to get it. And I don't think that we really think And I don't think that we really think And I don't think that we really think about the way that we have this about the way that we have this about the way that we have this regressive filter on a lot of regressive filter on a lot of regressive filter on a lot of progressive policies. progressive policies. progressive policies. There a way in some ways in terms of There a way in some ways in terms of There a way in some ways in terms of just social control, right? We use work just social control, right? We use work just social control, right? We use work requirements to supposedly get people to requirements to supposedly get people to requirements to supposedly get people to work. They're not terribly effective at work. They're not terribly effective at work. They're not terribly effective at that depending on the program, right? We that depending on the program, right? We that depending on the program, right? We can use them to encourage people to get can use them to encourage people to get can use them to encourage people to get an education. We can use it to shape an education. We can use it to shape an education. We can use it to shape economic decisions, household financial economic decisions, household financial economic decisions, household financial decisions. decisions. decisions. >> See if you're taking drugs. >> See if you're taking drugs. >> See if you're taking drugs. >> Yeah. What can you what can you buy with >> Yeah. What can you what can you buy with >> Yeah. What can you what can you buy with this? Um, the SNAP program, uh, you have this? Um, the SNAP program, uh, you have this? Um, the SNAP program, uh, you have to get food that you're cooking to get food that you're cooking to get food that you're cooking yourself. You can't get hot food. So, yourself. You can't get hot food. So, yourself. You can't get hot food. So, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, >> can't get a rotisserie chicken at >> can't get a rotisserie chicken at >> can't get a rotisserie chicken at Costco. You Costco. You Costco. You >> can't get a rotisser chicken, but you >> can't get a rotisser chicken, but you >> can't get a rotisser chicken, but you can get uh like food that you microwave can get uh like food that you microwave can get uh like food that you microwave at your house, right? That's actually at your house, right? That's actually at your house, right? That's actually like that's not just like about like that's not just like about like that's not just like about nutrition. That's that's a method of nutrition. That's that's a method of nutrition. That's that's a method of control, right? We don't want you just control, right? We don't want you just control, right? We don't want you just using this uh to be easy. We want you using this uh to be easy. We want you using this uh to be easy. We want you cooking your own groceries. Um, and cooking your own groceries. Um, and cooking your own groceries. Um, and there's, funnily enough, in a lot of there's, funnily enough, in a lot of there's, funnily enough, in a lot of states, there's exemptions for people states, there's exemptions for people states, there's exemptions for people who are unstably housed or homeless who are unstably housed or homeless who are unstably housed or homeless because it's really hard to cook for because it's really hard to cook for because it's really hard to cook for yourself if you're not living anywhere.

yourself if you're not living anywhere. yourself if you're not living anywhere. SNAP cards are good, right? Um, EBT SNAP cards are good, right? Um, EBT SNAP cards are good, right? Um, EBT cards now, they work just right. It's cards now, they work just right. It's cards now, they work just right. It's like your Visa, but it used to be that, like your Visa, but it used to be that, like your Visa, but it used to be that, you know, still, and in some cases you know, still, and in some cases you know, still, and in some cases still, right, like you have to separate still, right, like you have to separate still, right, like you have to separate out the grocery orders. It makes you out the grocery orders. It makes you out the grocery orders. It makes you very visible to other people in the very visible to other people in the very visible to other people in the grocery store that you're using it. And grocery store that you're using it. And grocery store that you're using it. And I think that that is like a social I think that that is like a social I think that that is like a social outcome too. outcome too. outcome too. >> A tool of humiliation. >> A tool of humiliation. >> A tool of humiliation. >> Yeah. They want to humiliate you or they >> Yeah. They want to humiliate you or they >> Yeah. They want to humiliate you or they are willing to humiliate you so that you are willing to humiliate you so that you are willing to humiliate you so that you can feed your kid. And so that's what I can feed your kid. And so that's what I can feed your kid. And so that's what I mean when I say that these are social mean when I say that these are social mean when I say that these are social tools, right? And they come with this tools, right? And they come with this tools, right? And they come with this kind of time veilance. They come with kind of time veilance. They come with kind of time veilance. They come with this financial veilance and then they this financial veilance and then they this financial veilance and then they come with an emotional veilance too. You come with an emotional veilance too. You come with an emotional veilance too. You have a a good line in the book where you have a a good line in the book where you have a a good line in the book where you say poverty is a social construct not say poverty is a social construct not say poverty is a social construct not just a material state of being [snorts] just a material state of being [snorts] just a material state of being [snorts] and the time tax is part of its and the time tax is part of its and the time tax is part of its construction with forms, summones and construction with forms, summones and construction with forms, summones and sanctions. The government impresses upon sanctions. The government impresses upon sanctions. The government impresses upon poor people that it is their fault they poor people that it is their fault they poor people that it is their fault they are poor. It applies skepticism to the are poor. It applies skepticism to the are poor. It applies skepticism to the needy, the overwhelmed and the unlucky needy, the overwhelmed and the unlucky needy, the overwhelmed and the unlucky that it does not apply to the powerful that it does not apply to the powerful that it does not apply to the powerful and wealthy. It does that but it also and wealthy. It does that but it also and wealthy. It does that but it also adds and and you say it this way in adds and and you say it this way in adds and and you say it this way in other places like a part-time job.

other places like a part-time job. other places like a part-time job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. You're already behind. are >> Right. You're already behind. are >> Right. You're already behind. are already struggling with the basics of already struggling with the basics of already struggling with the basics of life and now you have to do all of this. life and now you have to do all of this. life and now you have to do all of this. You've been reporting with someone in You've been reporting with someone in You've been reporting with someone in Utah which like I feel like is a very Utah which like I feel like is a very Utah which like I feel like is a very good example of this. Do you want to good example of this. Do you want to good example of this. Do you want to talk through that? talk through that? talk through that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Marcela is a single mom of three kids Um Marcela is a single mom of three kids Um Marcela is a single mom of three kids and she's a manicurist and she's a manicurist and she's a manicurist and so she is low income and there's so and so she is low income and there's so and so she is low income and there's so much that I admire about her. Um, she much that I admire about her. Um, she much that I admire about her. Um, she has just been handed a lot and she has has just been handed a lot and she has has just been handed a lot and she has worked so hard to make her life better worked so hard to make her life better worked so hard to make her life better and her kids life better. When I met and her kids life better. When I met and her kids life better. When I met her, she was going to school so that her, she was going to school so that her, she was going to school so that like aesthetician school so that she like aesthetician school so that she like aesthetician school so that she could perform different services, higher could perform different services, higher could perform different services, higher value services. When I saw her a couple value services. When I saw her a couple value services. When I saw her a couple weeks ago, she has this idea for kind of weeks ago, she has this idea for kind of weeks ago, she has this idea for kind of like a nail tech thing. She'd gone to like a nail tech thing. She'd gone to like a nail tech thing. She'd gone to the University of Utah to ask about like the University of Utah to ask about like the University of Utah to ask about like what is a copyright and a trademark? Can what is a copyright and a trademark? Can what is a copyright and a trademark? Can they help her patent it? She had found they help her patent it? She had found they help her patent it? She had found an American producer, like a made in the an American producer, like a made in the an American producer, like a made in the USA producer. And she had been helped by USA producer. And she had been helped by USA producer. And she had been helped by an amazing nonprofit based in Salt Lake an amazing nonprofit based in Salt Lake an amazing nonprofit based in Salt Lake City called Circles, which is City called Circles, which is City called Circles, which is self-empowerment, right? Uh people come self-empowerment, right? Uh people come self-empowerment, right? Uh people come to these meetings, they get advice, but to these meetings, they get advice, but to these meetings, they get advice, but they're really focusing on getting their they're really focusing on getting their they're really focusing on getting their income up and and you know having help income up and and you know having help income up and and you know having help and accountability towards a plan and it and accountability towards a plan and it and accountability towards a plan and it is this enormously enormously great is this enormously enormously great is this enormously enormously great resource that's very different than the resource that's very different than the resource that's very different than the experience that people often get when

experience that people often get when experience that people often get when they're walking into a benefit office they're walking into a benefit office they're walking into a benefit office there. there. there. and she um uses public assistance, and she um uses public assistance, and she um uses public assistance, Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid, other program, SNAP, and uh she was other program, SNAP, and uh she was other program, SNAP, and uh she was labeled as a fraud risk 9 years ago. labeled as a fraud risk 9 years ago. labeled as a fraud risk 9 years ago. And she [snorts] sort of describes this And she [snorts] sort of describes this And she [snorts] sort of describes this as a paperwork error. She didn't mean to as a paperwork error. She didn't mean to as a paperwork error. She didn't mean to do it, but she can't like afford a tax do it, but she can't like afford a tax do it, but she can't like afford a tax person. And she didn't know how to, you person. And she didn't know how to, you person. And she didn't know how to, you know, talk to the state about like, hey, know, talk to the state about like, hey, know, talk to the state about like, hey, we the nail salon I was working kind of we the nail salon I was working kind of we the nail salon I was working kind of screwed me over on this. What? and she screwed me over on this. What? and she screwed me over on this. What? and she paid some restitution to the state. The paid some restitution to the state. The paid some restitution to the state. The dollar amount is really low. And ever dollar amount is really low. And ever dollar amount is really low. And ever since then, she has to reapply for her since then, she has to reapply for her since then, she has to reapply for her benefits every month or two. benefits every month or two. benefits every month or two. Years later, and these benefits are Years later, and these benefits are Years later, and these benefits are meant to help her kids, she has never meant to help her kids, she has never meant to help her kids, she has never had any issues since then. And the state had any issues since then. And the state had any issues since then. And the state of Utah has kicked her off of one of Utah has kicked her off of one of Utah has kicked her off of one benefit or another more than 120 times.

benefit or another more than 120 times. benefit or another more than 120 times. 120 times and she doesn't have a lot of 120 times and she doesn't have a lot of 120 times and she doesn't have a lot of choice, right? She's got kids to feed in choice, right? She's got kids to feed in choice, right? She's got kids to feed in a very literal sense and it's like what a very literal sense and it's like what a very literal sense and it's like what what is the point here? what is the point here? what is the point here? >> But it's still just a lot of time. I >> But it's still just a lot of time. I >> But it's still just a lot of time. I mean, you have this scene where she's mean, you have this scene where she's mean, you have this scene where she's being helped by I think at least in part being helped by I think at least in part being helped by I think at least in part social workers and they're just social workers and they're just social workers and they're just befuddled in front of their computer. befuddled in front of their computer. befuddled in front of their computer. >> Yeah. It takes hours and hours and hours >> Yeah. It takes hours and hours and hours >> Yeah. It takes hours and hours and hours >> and she doesn't have a computer, right? >> and she doesn't have a computer, right? >> and she doesn't have a computer, right? >> She doesn't have a she just got one. But >> She doesn't have a she just got one. But >> She doesn't have a she just got one. But she didn't she didn't have a laptop. She she didn't she didn't have a laptop. She she didn't she didn't have a laptop. She didn't have Wi-Fi, right? She was, you didn't have Wi-Fi, right? She was, you didn't have Wi-Fi, right? She was, you know, went on on on on at some point know, went on on on on at some point know, went on on on on at some point with me about how hard it was to like with me about how hard it was to like with me about how hard it was to like get a photo on her cell phone and send get a photo on her cell phone and send get a photo on her cell phone and send it as a fax because she needed to do it as a fax because she needed to do it as a fax because she needed to do that. [laughter] that. [laughter] that. [laughter] And she's like, "How do I how do I do And she's like, "How do I how do I do And she's like, "How do I how do I do this thing?" And I'm like, "Why do you this thing?" And I'm like, "Why do you this thing?" And I'm like, "Why do you got to why do you have to send anything got to why do you have to send anything got to why do you have to send anything as a fax?" But you do. And the amount of as a fax?" But you do. And the amount of as a fax?" But you do. And the amount of time, the amount of stress, and it's why time, the amount of stress, and it's why time, the amount of stress, and it's why I think that she's such an amazing I think that she's such an amazing I think that she's such an amazing person that she has managed to figure person that she has managed to figure person that she has managed to figure things out in spite of this. So yes, she things out in spite of this. So yes, she things out in spite of this. So yes, she gets the help, but it comes with this gets the help, but it comes with this gets the help, but it comes with this tremendous cost tremendous cost tremendous cost >> and it's time she can't spend with her >> and it's time she can't spend with her >> and it's time she can't spend with her kids working her way out of poverty, kids working her way out of poverty, kids working her way out of poverty, being a mother, being a mother, being a mother, >> doing anything, right?

>> doing anything, right? >> doing anything, right? >> Working on her nail business. >> Working on her nail business. >> Working on her nail business. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And I I just always think this is such >> And I I just always think this is such >> And I I just always think this is such an underrated like there's all you talk an underrated like there's all you talk an underrated like there's all you talk about some of it in the book and this about some of it in the book and this about some of it in the book and this has been like a obsession at times in has been like a obsession at times in has been like a obsession at times in our household. There's a huge cognitive our household. There's a huge cognitive our household. There's a huge cognitive cost to poverty. cost to poverty. cost to poverty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That being poor is like being sleepless. >> That being poor is like being sleepless. >> That being poor is like being sleepless. >> Yes. And like we've people have like >> Yes. And like we've people have like >> Yes. And like we've people have like done this, they have looked at it, they done this, they have looked at it, they done this, they have looked at it, they have done all kinds of experiments. have done all kinds of experiments. have done all kinds of experiments. >> It's equivalent to pulling an allnighter >> It's equivalent to pulling an allnighter >> It's equivalent to pulling an allnighter >> and it's just constant like thinking >> and it's just constant like thinking >> and it's just constant like thinking about things and mental weight and it about things and mental weight and it about things and mental weight and it just makes it harder just makes it harder just makes it harder >> to pull out that if the point of the >> to pull out that if the point of the >> to pull out that if the point of the state was to make it easier to not be state was to make it easier to not be state was to make it easier to not be poor that these states that believe the poor that these states that believe the poor that these states that believe the way you're going to do that is wrapping way you're going to do that is wrapping way you're going to do that is wrapping people in procedure and humiliation. people in procedure and humiliation. people in procedure and humiliation. It's exactly the opposite. Oh, It's exactly the opposite. Oh, It's exactly the opposite. Oh, >> the like >> the like >> the like you need to make it easier for people to you need to make it easier for people to you need to make it easier for people to move forward in their life, not harder. move forward in their life, not harder. move forward in their life, not harder. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Like if you're poor, it's [ __ ] hard >> Like if you're poor, it's [ __ ] hard >> Like if you're poor, it's [ __ ] hard enough, enough, enough, >> right? And there's this idea, the ordeal >> right? And there's this idea, the ordeal >> right? And there's this idea, the ordeal mechanism theory, so this is this like mechanism theory, so this is this like mechanism theory, so this is this like very, you know, probably nobody has ever very, you know, probably nobody has ever very, you know, probably nobody has ever heard of this. Comes out in the 1980s heard of this. Comes out in the 1980s heard of this. Comes out in the 1980s that basically in government programs, that basically in government programs, that basically in government programs, you want to make them a bit of an you want to make them a bit of an you want to make them a bit of an ordeal. And what that is going to do is ordeal. And what that is going to do is ordeal. And what that is going to do is that is going to get people who don't that is going to get people who don't that is going to get people who don't really need the benefit not to get it, really need the benefit not to get it, really need the benefit not to get it, right? It's going to discourage them.

right? It's going to discourage them. right? It's going to discourage them. >> Um, and it's also going to help you >> Um, and it's also going to help you >> Um, and it's also going to help you protect about against fraud. It's going protect about against fraud. It's going protect about against fraud. It's going to, you know, increase the public's to, you know, increase the public's to, you know, increase the public's confidence in a given program. And I confidence in a given program. And I confidence in a given program. And I think layered onto that is this idea, think layered onto that is this idea, think layered onto that is this idea, this almost puritanical notion, if this almost puritanical notion, if this almost puritanical notion, if you're getting something, you got to you're getting something, you got to you're getting something, you got to work for it. It shouldn't just come to work for it. It shouldn't just come to work for it. It shouldn't just come to you. And so if you're not working or not you. And so if you're not working or not you. And so if you're not working or not working enough in the labor market, you working enough in the labor market, you working enough in the labor market, you should you should have to work for these should you should have to work for these should you should have to work for these things. You shouldn't just get them. And things. You shouldn't just get them. And things. You shouldn't just get them. And in fact, you needed to have all of these in fact, you needed to have all of these in fact, you needed to have all of these little structures and these rules in little structures and these rules in little structures and these rules in order to build the kind of mass public's order to build the kind of mass public's order to build the kind of mass public's trust. But this didn't always totally trust. But this didn't always totally trust. But this didn't always totally make sense to me because it's not like make sense to me because it's not like make sense to me because it's not like people liked welfare better after 96. people liked welfare better after 96. people liked welfare better after 96. It's not like a more popular. Nobody's It's not like a more popular. Nobody's It's not like a more popular. Nobody's like, "Oh, that's a really great program like, "Oh, that's a really great program like, "Oh, that's a really great program today." today." today." So I don't think that adding So I don't think that adding So I don't think that adding administrative burdens to it improved administrative burdens to it improved administrative burdens to it improved it. it. it. >> But so then what happens in 96? >> But so then what happens in 96? >> But so then what happens in 96? >> Today we are ending welfare as we know >> Today we are ending welfare as we know >> Today we are ending welfare as we know it. But I hope this day will be it. But I hope this day will be it. But I hope this day will be remembered not for what it ended but for remembered not for what it ended but for remembered not for what it ended but for what it began.

what it began. what it began. >> In 96 uh the program is required to have >> In 96 uh the program is required to have >> In 96 uh the program is required to have work requirements. It's required to have work requirements. It's required to have work requirements. It's required to have sanctions for non-compliant users of the sanctions for non-compliant users of the sanctions for non-compliant users of the program. There's a time limit. You can program. There's a time limit. You can program. There's a time limit. You can only get it for five years. no matter only get it for five years. no matter only get it for five years. no matter how many kids you have, right? If you how many kids you have, right? If you how many kids you have, right? If you have one kid and then you have a kid 10 have one kid and then you have a kid 10 have one kid and then you have a kid 10 years later, like you're not going to years later, like you're not going to years later, like you're not going to get TANIF, right? It stops being an get TANIF, right? It stops being an get TANIF, right? It stops being an entitlement. So, if you meet the entitlement. So, if you meet the entitlement. So, if you meet the criteria, you don't necessarily get the criteria, you don't necessarily get the criteria, you don't necessarily get the benefit. It gets block granted to the benefit. It gets block granted to the benefit. It gets block granted to the state. And they've never changed the state. And they've never changed the state. And they've never changed the block grant amount, even adjusting for block grant amount, even adjusting for block grant amount, even adjusting for inflation. It's still 16.5 trillion inflation. It's still 16.5 trillion inflation. It's still 16.5 trillion dollars per year. So tiny, tiny, tiny, dollars per year. So tiny, tiny, tiny, dollars per year. So tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. From now on, our nation's tiny, tiny. From now on, our nation's tiny, tiny. From now on, our nation's answer to this great social challenge answer to this great social challenge answer to this great social challenge will no longer be a never- ending cycle will no longer be a never- ending cycle will no longer be a never- ending cycle of welfare. It will be the dignity, the of welfare. It will be the dignity, the of welfare. It will be the dignity, the power, and the ethic of work. power, and the ethic of work. power, and the ethic of work. Today, we are taking an historic chance Today, we are taking an historic chance Today, we are taking an historic chance to make welfare what it was meant to be, to make welfare what it was meant to be, to make welfare what it was meant to be, a second chance, not a way of life. a second chance, not a way of life. a second chance, not a way of life. >> For the people who are receiving the >> For the people who are receiving the >> For the people who are receiving the money, they have to do so much work to money, they have to do so much work to money, they have to do so much work to get this really poulry benefit. and the get this really poulry benefit. and the get this really poulry benefit. and the benefit is so hard for them to get and benefit is so hard for them to get and benefit is so hard for them to get and the application is not just difficult to the application is not just difficult to the application is not just difficult to do but the application is like do but the application is like do but the application is like humiliating, humiliating, humiliating, embarrassing, embarrassing, embarrassing, something that nobody actually wants to something that nobody actually wants to something that nobody actually wants to do often because the benefit is so do often because the benefit is so do often because the benefit is so small. So one example of this is that small. So one example of this is that small. So one example of this is that let's say that you were a teenage parent let's say that you were a teenage parent let's say that you were a teenage parent and you weren't married to the father of and you weren't married to the father of and you weren't married to the father of your children. state requires you to

your children. state requires you to your children. state requires you to identify the father of your child to the identify the father of your child to the identify the father of your child to the state so that they can go after the dad state so that they can go after the dad state so that they can go after the dad for child support. And you might think, for child support. And you might think, for child support. And you might think, okay, that's like reasonable, right? okay, that's like reasonable, right? okay, that's like reasonable, right? Like maybe that helps the non-custodial Like maybe that helps the non-custodial Like maybe that helps the non-custodial parent become more involved in the life parent become more involved in the life parent become more involved in the life of their kid. But if you actually talk of their kid. But if you actually talk of their kid. But if you actually talk to mothers who are complying with this, to mothers who are complying with this, to mothers who are complying with this, they say things like, "I actually have a they say things like, "I actually have a they say things like, "I actually have a pretty good relationship with that guy, pretty good relationship with that guy, pretty good relationship with that guy, but he's really poor." and like what if but he's really poor." and like what if but he's really poor." and like what if he becomes homeless because he's been he becomes homeless because he's been he becomes homeless because he's been garnished for child support or they garnished for child support or they garnished for child support or they might say I was in an abusive might say I was in an abusive might say I was in an abusive relationship and I don't want to relationship and I don't want to relationship and I don't want to identify the father of my child to identify the father of my child to identify the father of my child to somebody I don't trust right to some somebody I don't trust right to some somebody I don't trust right to some state admin what I'm going to tell them state admin what I'm going to tell them state admin what I'm going to tell them about one of the hardest things that about one of the hardest things that about one of the hardest things that happened in my entire life and so happened in my entire life and so happened in my entire life and so non-compliance with the child support non-compliance with the child support non-compliance with the child support rules which again I think they have a rules which again I think they have a rules which again I think they have a fine theory behind ind them leads to in fine theory behind ind them leads to in fine theory behind ind them leads to in some cases like half of the people who some cases like half of the people who some cases like half of the people who get sanctioned by the program which is get sanctioned by the program which is get sanctioned by the program which is this sort of punitive you're not this sort of punitive you're not this sort of punitive you're not complying with the rules we're going to complying with the rules we're going to complying with the rules we're going to claw your benefits back um depending on claw your benefits back um depending on claw your benefits back um depending on the state are sanctioned for that one the state are sanctioned for that one the state are sanctioned for that one policy alone and tannif now is so policy alone and tannif now is so policy alone and tannif now is so ineffective ineffective ineffective that it does not actually that it does not actually that it does not actually change the child poverty rate it has no change the child poverty rate it has no change the child poverty rate it has no effect on it is like one of my favorite effect on it is like one of my favorite effect on it is like one of my favorite right the program that we have that has right the program that we have that has right the program that we have that has this supposed goal has gotten so jumbled

this supposed goal has gotten so jumbled this supposed goal has gotten so jumbled up and the money goes to so many up and the money goes to so many up and the money goes to so many different things and the states different things and the states different things and the states administer this program often with such administer this program often with such administer this program often with such cruelty that it doesn't actually do cruelty that it doesn't actually do cruelty that it doesn't actually do anything. anything. anything. >> So I think this gets it the the big >> So I think this gets it the the big >> So I think this gets it the the big distinction operating across a lot of distinction operating across a lot of distinction operating across a lot of these programs which is the programs these programs which is the programs these programs which is the programs where we intuitively or by default think where we intuitively or by default think where we intuitively or by default think people are deserving. people are deserving. people are deserving. >> Yes. and the programs where we treat >> Yes. and the programs where we treat >> Yes. and the programs where we treat them intuitively or by default, right, them intuitively or by default, right, them intuitively or by default, right, the government does, right, the government does, right, the government does, right, >> with suspicion. They they have to prove >> with suspicion. They they have to prove >> with suspicion. They they have to prove themselves worthy. themselves worthy. themselves worthy. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think it's useful to sort of jump >> And I think it's useful to sort of jump >> And I think it's useful to sort of jump back and forth a little bit between back and forth a little bit between back and forth a little bit between them. them. them. The postal service is kind of an amazing The postal service is kind of an amazing The postal service is kind of an amazing example here of a program uh of a example here of a program uh of a example here of a program uh of a government um operation government um operation government um operation >> that just decided everybody is worthy of >> that just decided everybody is worthy of >> that just decided everybody is worthy of getting their mail delivered getting their mail delivered getting their mail delivered >> no matter where they live. You you talk >> no matter where they live. You you talk >> no matter where they live. You you talk about a a art project I guess by Steven about a a art project I guess by Steven about a a art project I guess by Steven >> Brower >> Brower >> Brower >> um at New York's uh school of visual >> um at New York's uh school of visual >> um at New York's uh school of visual arts. Can you just talk about that and arts. Can you just talk about that and arts. Can you just talk about that and talk about the post office as a kind of talk about the post office as a kind of talk about the post office as a kind of counter example here?

counter example here? counter example here? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, he has these >> Yeah, absolutely. So, he has these >> Yeah, absolutely. So, he has these students, art students I think, and he students, art students I think, and he students, art students I think, and he asked them to send him a letter. So, asked them to send him a letter. So, asked them to send him a letter. So, these students, they draw maps, they these students, they draw maps, they these students, they draw maps, they make pictures, like they write things in make pictures, like they write things in make pictures, like they write things in kind of unusual type faces and fashions, kind of unusual type faces and fashions, kind of unusual type faces and fashions, right? And they're art students and right? And they're art students and right? And they're art students and basically all of the mail gets to him basically all of the mail gets to him basically all of the mail gets to him because the postal workers like figure because the postal workers like figure because the postal workers like figure it out. They look at the map and they're it out. They look at the map and they're it out. They look at the map and they're like, "Okay, like we'll take it. You like, "Okay, like we'll take it. You like, "Okay, like we'll take it. You know, it has a stamp on it. We're gonna know, it has a stamp on it. We're gonna know, it has a stamp on it. We're gonna try." Or they're like shading and try." Or they're like shading and try." Or they're like shading and oluding and trying to figure the oluding and trying to figure the oluding and trying to figure the addresses out. And I think that the addresses out. And I think that the addresses out. And I think that the postal service has this service postal service has this service postal service has this service orientation. It is in so many ways like orientation. It is in so many ways like orientation. It is in so many ways like the most amazing service I think in the most amazing service I think in the most amazing service I think in American life. They operate everywhere. American life. They operate everywhere. American life. They operate everywhere. You don't have to register your address. You don't have to register your address. You don't have to register your address. They deliver mail by skiff in some They deliver mail by skiff in some They deliver mail by skiff in some cases. It's like I think like those cases. It's like I think like those cases. It's like I think like those boats that you do this they deliver mail boats that you do this they deliver mail boats that you do this they deliver mail by mule to the base of the Grand Canyon. by mule to the base of the Grand Canyon. by mule to the base of the Grand Canyon. >> Who who lives at the base of the Grand >> Who who lives at the base of the Grand >> Who who lives at the base of the Grand Canyon and has a Canyon and has a Canyon and has a >> there's a hotel there and there's a a >> there's a hotel there and there's a a >> there's a hotel there and there's a a Native American reservation I believe is Native American reservation I believe is Native American reservation I believe is there. There's people down there. They there. There's people down there. They there. There's people down there. They make a good faith effort to get mail to make a good faith effort to get mail to make a good faith effort to get mail to everyone.

everyone. everyone. >> But this gets to the question of >> But this gets to the question of >> But this gets to the question of deserving undeserving. deserving undeserving. deserving undeserving. We have decided you are deserving of We have decided you are deserving of We have decided you are deserving of getting your mail delivered. You live getting your mail delivered. You live getting your mail delivered. You live somewhere. There's not a question. somewhere. There's not a question. somewhere. There's not a question. >> Medicare, you turn 65. >> Medicare, you turn 65. >> Medicare, you turn 65. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> It happens pretty easily. And we were >> It happens pretty easily. And we were >> It happens pretty easily. And we were talking about this in in the team as we talking about this in in the team as we talking about this in in the team as we were preparing for this and and one of were preparing for this and and one of were preparing for this and and one of the questions somebody saying, well, the questions somebody saying, well, the questions somebody saying, well, it's like, well, that's easy because it's like, well, that's easy because it's like, well, that's easy because it's just when people are are getting to it's just when people are are getting to it's just when people are are getting to retirement age, but no, these social retirement age, but no, these social retirement age, but no, these social security in the sense that uh you get security in the sense that uh you get security in the sense that uh you get different amounts depending on what your different amounts depending on what your different amounts depending on what your income has been, what you've paid in. income has been, what you've paid in. income has been, what you've paid in. Medicare has multiple programs within Medicare has multiple programs within Medicare has multiple programs within it. it. it. >> So, why are they easy? Is it like a lack >> So, why are they easy? Is it like a lack >> So, why are they easy? Is it like a lack of administrative complexity in figuring of administrative complexity in figuring of administrative complexity in figuring out who it is or is it something else? out who it is or is it something else? out who it is or is it something else? >> Seniors vote. >> Seniors vote. >> Seniors vote. Uh seniors are enormously politically Uh seniors are enormously politically Uh seniors are enormously politically powerful as a constituency in the United powerful as a constituency in the United powerful as a constituency in the United States. States. States. This is a contributo benefit. And This is a contributo benefit. And This is a contributo benefit. And there's this idea that the government is there's this idea that the government is there's this idea that the government is kind of saving your money and giving it kind of saving your money and giving it kind of saving your money and giving it back to you. That I think is back to you. That I think is back to you. That I think is a pleasant fiction. That's not how it a pleasant fiction. That's not how it a pleasant fiction. That's not how it works.

works. works. >> Yes. Regardless, there's this idea that >> Yes. Regardless, there's this idea that >> Yes. Regardless, there's this idea that yeah, if you don't earn social security, yeah, if you don't earn social security, yeah, if you don't earn social security, you're not going to get social security. you're not going to get social security. you're not going to get social security. And I would, you know, there's And I would, you know, there's And I would, you know, there's tremendous amounts of beautiful tremendous amounts of beautiful tremendous amounts of beautiful political science research that shows political science research that shows political science research that shows that participating in social security that participating in social security that participating in social security makes you civic, makes you feel like an makes you civic, makes you feel like an makes you civic, makes you feel like an American, and then you'll come out as a American, and then you'll come out as a American, and then you'll come out as a constituency to defend it. And a lot of constituency to defend it. And a lot of constituency to defend it. And a lot of other programs don't have that. Many other programs don't have that. Many other programs don't have that. Many other programs don't have that. other programs don't have that. other programs don't have that. >> You talk a bit about the research on >> You talk a bit about the research on >> You talk a bit about the research on this of what happens when you interface this of what happens when you interface this of what happens when you interface or depend on programs that humiliate you or depend on programs that humiliate you or depend on programs that humiliate you that make you jump through a lot of that make you jump through a lot of that make you jump through a lot of hoops. What does happen? hoops. What does happen? hoops. What does happen? uh the work that I like on this one of uh the work that I like on this one of uh the work that I like on this one of the great pieces of work on this and the great pieces of work on this and the great pieces of work on this and there's a lot in political science and there's a lot in political science and there's a lot in political science and there is a lot in sociology there is a lot in sociology there is a lot in sociology um is this work by Joe Sauce and he um is this work by Joe Sauce and he um is this work by Joe Sauce and he looks at moms who are on cash welfare looks at moms who are on cash welfare looks at moms who are on cash welfare and compares them to moms that are and compares them to moms that are and compares them to moms that are similarly situated in income terms but similarly situated in income terms but similarly situated in income terms but aren't getting the program aren't getting the program aren't getting the program and he finds that welfare makes people and he finds that welfare makes people and he finds that welfare makes people withdraw, withdraw, withdraw, right? It makes them less civic, less right? It makes them less civic, less right? It makes them less civic, less likely to vote. They develop this likely to vote. They develop this likely to vote. They develop this adversarial relationship with the state adversarial relationship with the state adversarial relationship with the state because they see the state as being um a because they see the state as being um a because they see the state as being um a source of aid and help, but also a source of aid and help, but also a source of aid and help, but also a tremendous threat to them and their tremendous threat to them and their tremendous threat to them and their children personally. And the government

children personally. And the government children personally. And the government through programs like this is imparting through programs like this is imparting through programs like this is imparting a sense of worth on people, political a sense of worth on people, political a sense of worth on people, political worth, right? worth, right? worth, right? It's saying, "Well, maybe you deserve to It's saying, "Well, maybe you deserve to It's saying, "Well, maybe you deserve to be treated like this. Maybe this is how be treated like this. Maybe this is how be treated like this. Maybe this is how much we care about you." much we care about you." much we care about you." And people absorb that feeling. You get And people absorb that feeling. You get And people absorb that feeling. You get the sense that Social Security cares the sense that Social Security cares the sense that Social Security cares about you. You get the sense that the about you. You get the sense that the about you. You get the sense that the postal service cares about you. One of postal service cares about you. One of postal service cares about you. One of the parts of the book I found very the parts of the book I found very the parts of the book I found very moving is in the latter half you you moving is in the latter half you you moving is in the latter half you you tell these two stories and one of the tell these two stories and one of the tell these two stories and one of the people is she works for sort of a people is she works for sort of a people is she works for sort of a boutique real estate agency. boutique real estate agency. boutique real estate agency. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And she gets a a bad head injury. >> And she gets a a bad head injury. >> And she gets a a bad head injury. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And she's treated she ends up in what >> And she's treated she ends up in what >> And she's treated she ends up in what you describe as like a paperwork vortex you describe as like a paperwork vortex you describe as like a paperwork vortex with the state. But is she and her with the state. But is she and her with the state. But is she and her family sort of react to that as an family sort of react to that as an family sort of react to that as an injustice? injustice? injustice? >> Yes. like they I don't know what their >> Yes. like they I don't know what their >> Yes. like they I don't know what their income background is, but but clearly income background is, but but clearly income background is, but but clearly they're not used to being treated this they're not used to being treated this they're not used to being treated this way by the state. way by the state. way by the state. >> She's college educated. Siblings are >> She's college educated. Siblings are >> She's college educated. Siblings are college educated. Yeah.

college educated. Yeah. college educated. Yeah. >> And you compare it to someone who >> And you compare it to someone who >> And you compare it to someone who doesn't come from that and how much doesn't come from that and how much doesn't come from that and how much they're just like, yeah, this is the way they're just like, yeah, this is the way they're just like, yeah, this is the way the state treats me. But it it reminded the state treats me. But it it reminded the state treats me. But it it reminded me and and I often think that people me and and I often think that people me and and I often think that people they'll look at how sort of they'll look at how sort of they'll look at how sort of working-class voters are often less working-class voters are often less working-class voters are often less trusting of the government, right? They trusting of the government, right? They trusting of the government, right? They vote more Republican now. Yeah. Yeah. vote more Republican now. Yeah. Yeah. vote more Republican now. Yeah. Yeah. >> And they sort of think there's just a >> And they sort of think there's just a >> And they sort of think there's just a strange like a false consciousness there strange like a false consciousness there strange like a false consciousness there or it's all culture issues. But often or it's all culture issues. But often or it's all culture issues. But often times working class voters have terrible times working class voters have terrible times working class voters have terrible experiences with the government. experiences with the government. experiences with the government. >> Awful. >> Awful. >> Awful. >> And I think that's actually quite >> And I think that's actually quite >> And I think that's actually quite underplayed in why sometimes they are underplayed in why sometimes they are underplayed in why sometimes they are not as enthusiastic not as enthusiastic not as enthusiastic about, you know, liberal or, you know, about, you know, liberal or, you know, about, you know, liberal or, you know, leftist government programs as one would leftist government programs as one would leftist government programs as one would think, right? Like you know, if you've think, right? Like you know, if you've think, right? Like you know, if you've had good experiences with the had good experiences with the had good experiences with the government, you think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, oh, redistribution, it's think, think, oh, redistribution, it's think, think, oh, redistribution, it's going to be great for everybody. going to be great for everybody. going to be great for everybody. >> Yeah. But then if you've been on the >> Yeah. But then if you've been on the >> Yeah. But then if you've been on the business end of redistribution sometimes business end of redistribution sometimes business end of redistribution sometimes it has maybe been really humiliating and it has maybe been really humiliating and it has maybe been really humiliating and timeconuming for you. timeconuming for you. timeconuming for you. >> Absolutely. This is one of the >> Absolutely. This is one of the >> Absolutely. This is one of the complications I think to the what's the complications I think to the what's the complications I think to the what's the matter with Kansas theory. Right. Um matter with Kansas theory. Right. Um matter with Kansas theory. Right. Um >> which is that these are voters voting >> which is that these are voters voting >> which is that these are voters voting against self-interest. against self-interest. against self-interest. >> Yeah. They're voting against their own >> Yeah. They're voting against their own >> Yeah. They're voting against their own self-interest. Right. Yes. The people self-interest. Right. Yes. The people self-interest. Right. Yes. The people who are middle class, who are college who are middle class, who are college who are middle class, who are college educated, I have spoken with and there educated, I have spoken with and there educated, I have spoken with and there are many who have the bumpy fall down are many who have the bumpy fall down are many who have the bumpy fall down the income ladder and then have to the income ladder and then have to the income ladder and then have to interact with the government as a interact with the government as a interact with the government as a supplicant who is there begging for help supplicant who is there begging for help supplicant who is there begging for help are traumatized. Often they're like, are traumatized. Often they're like, are traumatized. Often they're like, "Wait, you're treating me like I'm "Wait, you're treating me like I'm "Wait, you're treating me like I'm poor?" And they don't conceive of poor?" And they don't conceive of poor?" And they don't conceive of themselves as being poor. They conceive themselves as being poor. They conceive themselves as being poor. They conceive of themselves as having a hard time. And of themselves as having a hard time. And of themselves as having a hard time. And that's fair and fine. But yes, I think

that's fair and fine. But yes, I think that's fair and fine. But yes, I think if you are merely looking at income, the if you are merely looking at income, the if you are merely looking at income, the lower down you go, you are spending more lower down you go, you are spending more lower down you go, you are spending more time interacting with the government and time interacting with the government and time interacting with the government and you're not getting the nice parts, you're not getting the nice parts, you're not getting the nice parts, right? Like you're not getting the oo, right? Like you're not getting the oo, right? Like you're not getting the oo, I'm visiting an American embassy abroad I'm visiting an American embassy abroad I'm visiting an American embassy abroad parts. You're getting the standing in parts. You're getting the standing in parts. You're getting the standing in line and pee in a cup parts. You're line and pee in a cup parts. You're line and pee in a cup parts. You're getting the I'm going to humiliate you. getting the I'm going to humiliate you. getting the I'm going to humiliate you. I'm going to treat you like you're a I'm going to treat you like you're a I'm going to treat you like you're a fraud risk. fraud risk. fraud risk. But then again, there are some parts of But then again, there are some parts of But then again, there are some parts of the government that even highincome the government that even highincome the government that even highincome folks deal with that are absolutely folks deal with that are absolutely folks deal with that are absolutely miserable. They just have more capacity miserable. They just have more capacity miserable. They just have more capacity to handle it. to handle it. to handle it. >> I want to get to the parts that rich >> I want to get to the parts that rich >> I want to get to the parts that rich people do interact with in a second, but people do interact with in a second, but people do interact with in a second, but I had asked you uh before this if you I had asked you uh before this if you I had asked you uh before this if you had a favorite time text, if you had a had a favorite time text, if you had a had a favorite time text, if you had a favorite form, a thing that exemplified favorite form, a thing that exemplified favorite form, a thing that exemplified what you're talking about here. And and what you're talking about here. And and what you're talking about here. And and so maybe as a way of illustrating what so maybe as a way of illustrating what so maybe as a way of illustrating what we're actually describing. Um you said we're actually describing. Um you said we're actually describing. Um you said you did. What is it? you did. What is it? you did. What is it? >> The DHS 1171. >> The DHS 1171. >> The DHS 1171. >> Oh, of course. [laughter] >> Oh, of course. [laughter] >> Oh, of course. [laughter] Um, Um, Um, there is a guy named Michael Brennan who there is a guy named Michael Brennan who there is a guy named Michael Brennan who used to run one of the United Ways in used to run one of the United Ways in used to run one of the United Ways in Michigan and now runs a firm that helps Michigan and now runs a firm that helps Michigan and now runs a firm that helps the government and other, you know, the government and other, you know, the government and other, you know, agencies redesign enrollment processes agencies redesign enrollment processes agencies redesign enrollment processes and things like that around people, and things like that around people, and things like that around people, human- centered design. and he for years human- centered design. and he for years human- centered design. and he for years carried around the DHS 1171 in his carried around the DHS 1171 in his carried around the DHS 1171 in his pocket, like a little miniature version pocket, like a little miniature version pocket, like a little miniature version of it.

of it. of it. >> You meet the most interesting people. >> You meet the most interesting people. >> You meet the most interesting people. >> I do. I do. I'm an [laughter] I'm an >> I do. I do. I'm an [laughter] I'm an >> I do. I do. I'm an [laughter] I'm an extrovert. I'll yap with anybody. But he extrovert. I'll yap with anybody. But he extrovert. I'll yap with anybody. But he um you know and it reminded me of right um you know and it reminded me of right um you know and it reminded me of right like a priest carrying the Bible or like like a priest carrying the Bible or like like a priest carrying the Bible or like a lot of politicians are constantly they a lot of politicians are constantly they a lot of politicians are constantly they love miniature constitutions love miniature constitutions love miniature constitutions and uh that was because this was the and uh that was because this was the and uh that was because this was the main application for aid in the state of main application for aid in the state of main application for aid in the state of Michigan and it was uh 18,000 words and Michigan and it was uh 18,000 words and Michigan and it was uh 18,000 words and a thousand questions. a thousand a thousand questions. a thousand a thousand questions. a thousand questions. questions. questions. >> A thousand questions. >> A thousand questions. >> A thousand questions. And you might not have to answer all of And you might not have to answer all of And you might not have to answer all of those, but regardless, if you're like, those, but regardless, if you're like, those, but regardless, if you're like, I'm not sure if I can feed my kids, this I'm not sure if I can feed my kids, this I'm not sure if I can feed my kids, this is the form that you're filling out. And is the form that you're filling out. And is the form that you're filling out. And so, Michael Brownin and his so, Michael Brownin and his so, Michael Brownin and his organization, Cilla, helped to redesign organization, Cilla, helped to redesign organization, Cilla, helped to redesign it. But until recently, this was the it. But until recently, this was the it. But until recently, this was the form. And I have it if we want to look form. And I have it if we want to look form. And I have it if we want to look at it. Okay. at it. Okay. at it. Okay. >> Love a prop.

>> Love a prop. >> Love a prop. >> So, this is on kind of like two-sided >> So, this is on kind of like two-sided >> So, this is on kind of like two-sided paper. So, it's actually kind of smaller paper. So, it's actually kind of smaller paper. So, it's actually kind of smaller than it, you know, but take a look here than it, you know, but take a look here than it, you know, but take a look here at the what that says. What that at the what that says. What that at the what that says. What that >> I just the idea that you would be handed >> I just the idea that you would be handed >> I just the idea that you would be handed this for. This is heavy, by the way. this for. This is heavy, by the way. this for. This is heavy, by the way. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah, it is heavy. >> Yeah, it is heavy. >> Yeah, it is heavy. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> and it's really hard. You look at it. >> and it's really hard. You look at it. >> and it's really hard. You look at it. It's like it's hard to read. It's like, It's like it's hard to read. It's like, It's like it's hard to read. It's like, do I have to do all of this? do I have to do all of this? do I have to do all of this? >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> So, look at >> So, look at >> So, look at >> I I do want I've not seen this one >> I I do want I've not seen this one >> I I do want I've not seen this one before. This is a lot of boxes. before. This is a lot of boxes. before. This is a lot of boxes. >> It's terrible. >> It's terrible. >> It's terrible. >> If this person is under 22, complete >> If this person is under 22, complete >> If this person is under 22, complete this section. Who paid for this child's this section. Who paid for this child's this section. Who paid for this child's birth expenses? State, parents, another birth expenses? State, parents, another birth expenses? State, parents, another person. What was a marital status of the person. What was a marital status of the person. What was a marital status of the mother while pregnant with this child? mother while pregnant with this child? mother while pregnant with this child? If married or divorced, marriage date, If married or divorced, marriage date, If married or divorced, marriage date, separation date, divorce date, order, separation date, divorce date, order, separation date, divorce date, order, county, state, order, county, state. If county, state, order, county, state. If county, state, order, county, state. If single, this child's conception date, single, this child's conception date, single, this child's conception date, city for the same question, conception, city for the same question, conception, city for the same question, conception, city, state, country, has an affidavit city, state, country, has an affidavit city, state, country, has an affidavit of parentage or court order name someone of parentage or court order name someone of parentage or court order name someone as a father, as a father, as a father, >> where your kid was conceived.

>> where your kid was conceived. >> where your kid was conceived. >> Doctors don't ask you that. >> Doctors don't ask you that. >> Doctors don't ask you that. This is the state telling poor people to This is the state telling poor people to This is the state telling poor people to go [ __ ] themselves. That's what that is. go [ __ ] themselves. That's what that is. go [ __ ] themselves. That's what that is. I cannot imagine I cannot imagine I cannot imagine how upsetting it must be to already be how upsetting it must be to already be how upsetting it must be to already be in a state of risk or distress in a state of risk or distress in a state of risk or distress >> and you're going to the state for help >> and you're going to the state for help >> and you're going to the state for help like for help and they're like, "Oh, was like for help and they're like, "Oh, was like for help and they're like, "Oh, was your kid what day was your kid your kid what day was your kid your kid what day was your kid conceived? conceived? conceived? >> What day was your kid?" I don't know >> What day was your kid?" I don't know >> What day was your kid?" I don't know what day our kids were conceived. what day our kids were conceived. what day our kids were conceived. >> Nobody does. >> Nobody does. >> Nobody does. That's not like a thing. And What is the state telling you when it What is the state telling you when it asks you that? asks you that? asks you that? >> It's also just a kind of if you go >> It's also just a kind of if you go >> It's also just a kind of if you go through this form, through this form, through this form, >> it's it's very intimidating as a form. >> it's it's very intimidating as a form. >> it's it's very intimidating as a form. >> It's hard to read. >> It's hard to read. >> It's hard to read. >> It's hard to read. >> It's hard to read. >> It's hard to read. >> It's like it's enormous. >> It's like it's enormous. >> It's like it's enormous. >> It tells you a lot that if you like I'm >> It tells you a lot that if you like I'm >> It tells you a lot that if you like I'm just looking at the front. It's like if just looking at the front. It's like if just looking at the front. It's like if you don't give correct information. I you don't give correct information. I you don't give correct information. I mean, what if you get the conception mean, what if you get the conception mean, what if you get the conception date wrong? I look at something like date wrong? I look at something like date wrong? I look at something like this and and here's my question for you this and and here's my question for you this and and here's my question for you about it.

about it. about it. Is the way you understand this form that Is the way you understand this form that Is the way you understand this form that the government here was the government here was the government here was incompetent, rulebound, incompetent, rulebound, incompetent, rulebound, fetishistic of procedure? Or is the way fetishistic of procedure? Or is the way fetishistic of procedure? Or is the way you understand this form more the way you understand this form more the way you understand this form more the way you said it a minute ago that this is you said it a minute ago that this is you said it a minute ago that this is not a government that is not thinking not a government that is not thinking not a government that is not thinking about the time tax? This is a government about the time tax? This is a government about the time tax? This is a government with exquisite sense of what the time with exquisite sense of what the time with exquisite sense of what the time tax can do. This is government tax can do. This is government tax can do. This is government weaponizing the time tax because it does weaponizing the time tax because it does weaponizing the time tax because it does not want people to complete this form not want people to complete this form not want people to complete this form >> because it wants you to get it. And its >> because it wants you to get it. And its >> because it wants you to get it. And its view of you is if you're asking us for view of you is if you're asking us for view of you is if you're asking us for help, you should pay. And if you can't help, you should pay. And if you can't help, you should pay. And if you can't pay with money, if we're going to have pay with money, if we're going to have pay with money, if we're going to have to support you, to support you, to support you, >> then you better really need it. >> then you better really need it. >> then you better really need it. >> And the way we know if you really need >> And the way we know if you really need >> And the way we know if you really need it is if you will subjugate yourself it is if you will subjugate yourself it is if you will subjugate yourself before us. If you will humiliate before us. If you will humiliate before us. If you will humiliate yourself in this way. and that it you yourself in this way. and that it you yourself in this way. and that it you know in this telling right not my view know in this telling right not my view know in this telling right not my view acts as a acts as a acts as a virtuous disincentive to people going on virtuous disincentive to people going on virtuous disincentive to people going on the public do the public do the public do >> I think it is all of the above oftent >> I think it is all of the above oftent >> I think it is all of the above oftent times I think that these documents kind times I think that these documents kind times I think that these documents kind of happen by accretion there's some of happen by accretion there's some of happen by accretion there's some state laws there's some federal laws state laws there's some federal laws state laws there's some federal laws they ask that you figure this out some they ask that you figure this out some they ask that you figure this out some of it's well-intentioned like maybe of it's well-intentioned like maybe of it's well-intentioned like maybe we'll get you this extra little bit of we'll get you this extra little bit of we'll get you this extra little bit of assistance if we know that you're at assistance if we know that you're at assistance if we know that you're at risk in these categories risk in these categories risk in these categories But this is constructed by people who But this is constructed by people who But this is constructed by people who have a law degree and are talking to have a law degree and are talking to have a law degree and are talking to lobbyists and are wearing suits. And it lobbyists and are wearing suits. And it lobbyists and are wearing suits. And it is constructed to meet the state's needs is constructed to meet the state's needs is constructed to meet the state's needs of like, okay, what do we feel like we

of like, okay, what do we feel like we of like, okay, what do we feel like we need from these people? What are the need from these people? What are the need from these people? What are the legal requirements? legal requirements? legal requirements? What given our processes do we need? What given our processes do we need? What given our processes do we need? This is not a form that is constructed This is not a form that is constructed This is not a form that is constructed with people in mind. the end user, the with people in mind. the end user, the with people in mind. the end user, the citizen, the person who's actually at citizen, the person who's actually at citizen, the person who's actually at risk. risk. risk. >> But so you're saying the the way you're >> But so you're saying the the way you're >> But so you're saying the the way you're describing this, you're saying you describing this, you're saying you describing this, you're saying you actually think this is coming from a actually think this is coming from a actually think this is coming from a government that sees rules, not people, government that sees rules, not people, government that sees rules, not people, not a government that correctly not a government that correctly not a government that correctly understands what it is attempting to do. understands what it is attempting to do. understands what it is attempting to do. >> All of the above. And I think that we >> All of the above. And I think that we >> All of the above. And I think that we have a great example of this in HR1, have a great example of this in HR1, have a great example of this in HR1, which is currently rolling out, which is which is currently rolling out, which is which is currently rolling out, which is applying a nationwide work requirement applying a nationwide work requirement applying a nationwide work requirement in the Medicaid program. in the Medicaid program. in the Medicaid program. >> This is the one big beautiful bill act. >> This is the one big beautiful bill act. >> This is the one big beautiful bill act. >> One big beautiful bill act. So, so yeah, >> One big beautiful bill act. So, so yeah, >> One big beautiful bill act. So, so yeah, describe that. So, the main pay for describe that. So, the main pay for describe that. So, the main pay for which is not pay for all the tax cuts which is not pay for all the tax cuts which is not pay for all the tax cuts but pays for some of them are work but pays for some of them are work but pays for some of them are work requirements in Medicaid and SNAP. requirements in Medicaid and SNAP. requirements in Medicaid and SNAP. >> Yeah, it extends them in SNAP. SNAP >> Yeah, it extends them in SNAP. SNAP >> Yeah, it extends them in SNAP. SNAP already has work requirements already has work requirements already has work requirements >> which is food stamps the modern name for >> which is food stamps the modern name for >> which is food stamps the modern name for it. it. it. >> And so, uh there's some just >> And so, uh there's some just >> And so, uh there's some just straightforward SNAP cuts. So, refugees straightforward SNAP cuts. So, refugees straightforward SNAP cuts. So, refugees and asles get cut from the program in and asles get cut from the program in and asles get cut from the program in some cases. Um, and then in SNAP food some cases. Um, and then in SNAP food some cases. Um, and then in SNAP food stamps, it uh takes the work requirement stamps, it uh takes the work requirement stamps, it uh takes the work requirement and it extends it to some categories and it extends it to some categories and it extends it to some categories that didn't have to comply with it that didn't have to comply with it that didn't have to comply with it before, older Americans, for instance.

before, older Americans, for instance. before, older Americans, for instance. But then what it does is it takes the But then what it does is it takes the But then what it does is it takes the Medicaid program and just stop for a Medicaid program and just stop for a Medicaid program and just stop for a second. Medicaid is not a cash benefit. second. Medicaid is not a cash benefit. second. Medicaid is not a cash benefit. You can't do anything with Medicaid You can't do anything with Medicaid You can't do anything with Medicaid except for get healthcare. So the idea except for get healthcare. So the idea except for get healthcare. So the idea that you would get Medicaid and you that you would get Medicaid and you that you would get Medicaid and you would stop working or would just be would stop working or would just be would stop working or would just be living on the dole is kind of silly, living on the dole is kind of silly, living on the dole is kind of silly, right? But for the first time ever, uh right? But for the first time ever, uh right? But for the first time ever, uh it is applying a nationwide work it is applying a nationwide work it is applying a nationwide work requirement to non-disabled adults in requirement to non-disabled adults in requirement to non-disabled adults in the Medicaid program. And that is the the Medicaid program. And that is the the Medicaid program. And that is the engine, the cash engine driving tax cuts engine, the cash engine driving tax cuts engine, the cash engine driving tax cuts for the wealthy. Not because those for the wealthy. Not because those for the wealthy. Not because those people are not poor enough to get on people are not poor enough to get on people are not poor enough to get on Medicaid, but merely because most of Medicaid, but merely because most of Medicaid, but merely because most of those people will not be able to comply those people will not be able to comply those people will not be able to comply with the work requirement because it's with the work requirement because it's with the work requirement because it's so ownorous. Th so ownorous. Th so ownorous. Th >> this is a I I want to stop here because >> this is a I I want to stop here because >> this is a I I want to stop here because both because it's a good example and both because it's a good example and both because it's a good example and because it's a really massive policy because it's a really massive policy because it's a really massive policy change about to go into effect.

change about to go into effect. change about to go into effect. >> It's huge. >> It's huge. >> It's huge. >> You try to think about this. It's like >> You try to think about this. It's like >> You try to think about this. It's like what is Medicaid for? Yes. We think what is Medicaid for? Yes. We think what is Medicaid for? Yes. We think people should be able to have healthcare people should be able to have healthcare people should be able to have healthcare even if they're poor. even if they're poor. even if they're poor. >> Yes. So now you imagine a person who is >> Yes. So now you imagine a person who is >> Yes. So now you imagine a person who is poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. >> Yeah. And you got to be really poor, >> Yeah. And you got to be really poor, >> Yeah. And you got to be really poor, 138% of the federal poverty line, which 138% of the federal poverty line, which 138% of the federal poverty line, which is really low, is really low, is really low, >> and either >> and either >> and either >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> cannot find a job. >> cannot find a job. >> cannot find a job. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Or cannot get it together in a way where >> Or cannot get it together in a way where >> Or cannot get it together in a way where they can like work their way through the they can like work their way through the they can like work their way through the paperwork and continuously prove that paperwork and continuously prove that paperwork and continuously prove that they're looking for a job in the right they're looking for a job in the right they're looking for a job in the right ways. And different states are going to ways. And different states are going to ways. And different states are going to implement this and places will implement implement this and places will implement implement this and places will implement this in different ways with different this in different ways with different this in different ways with different levels of uh difficulty for the people levels of uh difficulty for the people levels of uh difficulty for the people they are testing. What is what about society is improved What is what about society is improved if that person now has no coverage when if that person now has no coverage when if that person now has no coverage when they have a heart attack? they have a heart attack? they have a heart attack? >> Beats me and they're going to go to the >> Beats me and they're going to go to the >> Beats me and they're going to go to the ER and it's going to be uncompensated ER and it's going to be uncompensated ER and it's going to be uncompensated care that somebody will pay just not care that somebody will pay just not care that somebody will pay just not Washington. So, will the individual pay Washington. So, will the individual pay Washington. So, will the individual pay because they're not going to get treated because they're not going to get treated because they're not going to get treated for that health condition that they for that health condition that they for that health condition that they have? I think about this all the time.

have? I think about this all the time. have? I think about this all the time. I'm a type 1 diabetic. No insulin. I'm I'm a type 1 diabetic. No insulin. I'm I'm a type 1 diabetic. No insulin. I'm dead in couple weeks. I don't know, dead in couple weeks. I don't know, dead in couple weeks. I don't know, maybe longer. And you are creating this maybe longer. And you are creating this maybe longer. And you are creating this burden where many people on Medicaid are burden where many people on Medicaid are burden where many people on Medicaid are already working if they can. Notably, already working if they can. Notably, already working if they can. Notably, they just don't make enough or they they just don't make enough or they they just don't make enough or they don't have a job like a nice fancy job don't have a job like a nice fancy job don't have a job like a nice fancy job like we have that comes with health like we have that comes with health like we have that comes with health insurance, right? or they can only get, insurance, right? or they can only get, insurance, right? or they can only get, you know, a part-time job or whatever. you know, a part-time job or whatever. you know, a part-time job or whatever. They have caretaking responsibilities. They have caretaking responsibilities. They have caretaking responsibilities. These are not generally people who are These are not generally people who are These are not generally people who are just like sitting at home not working just like sitting at home not working just like sitting at home not working >> and they're not people who have other >> and they're not people who have other >> and they're not people who have other health insurance options for the most health insurance options for the most health insurance options for the most part. I mean, the thing that I always part. I mean, the thing that I always part. I mean, the thing that I always thought was the most telling about this thought was the most telling about this thought was the most telling about this move was that it was not done on its move was that it was not done on its move was that it was not done on its own. You could imagine a world where own. You could imagine a world where own. You could imagine a world where they did like a big Medicaid reform they did like a big Medicaid reform they did like a big Medicaid reform package and they decided we want to have package and they decided we want to have package and they decided we want to have work requirements and they thought about work requirements and they thought about work requirements and they thought about how to implement them. I would oppose how to implement them. I would oppose how to implement them. I would oppose that like all the way through. that like all the way through. that like all the way through. >> Yeah. But it was telling that this was >> Yeah. But it was telling that this was >> Yeah. But it was telling that this was done to get savings so richer people get done to get savings so richer people get done to get savings so richer people get tax cuts. tax cuts. tax cuts. >> Yes, absolutely. And there was this >> Yes, absolutely. And there was this >> Yes, absolutely. And there was this tremendous, you know, uh Donald Trump tremendous, you know, uh Donald Trump tremendous, you know, uh Donald Trump promised that he wasn't cutting promised that he wasn't cutting promised that he wasn't cutting Medicaid, right? This is going to be Medicaid, right? This is going to be Medicaid, right? This is going to be easy to comply with and what we're going easy to comply with and what we're going easy to comply with and what we're going to do is we're going to get people like to do is we're going to get people like to do is we're going to get people like they kept on citing young men, young men they kept on citing young men, young men they kept on citing young men, young men who aren't working to get Medicaid.

who aren't working to get Medicaid. who aren't working to get Medicaid. We're going to get them to work. We're going to get them to work. We're going to get them to work. >> We're also the cheapest people to >> We're also the cheapest people to >> We're also the cheapest people to insure, by the way. insure, by the way. insure, by the way. >> Yeah. don't really use a lot of >> Yeah. don't really use a lot of >> Yeah. don't really use a lot of healthare young men generally, but we healthare young men generally, but we healthare young men generally, but we actually know that putting a work actually know that putting a work actually know that putting a work requirement in Medicaid doesn't raise requirement in Medicaid doesn't raise requirement in Medicaid doesn't raise employment rates because some states employment rates because some states employment rates because some states have had work requirements. There's some have had work requirements. There's some have had work requirements. There's some local programs, they've gotten waiverss local programs, they've gotten waiverss local programs, they've gotten waiverss basically to implement them. And when basically to implement them. And when basically to implement them. And when they do this, the employment rate they do this, the employment rate they do this, the employment rate doesn't go up. What happens is that it doesn't go up. What happens is that it doesn't go up. What happens is that it is a big paperwork cluster [ __ ] and is a big paperwork cluster [ __ ] and is a big paperwork cluster [ __ ] and it's expensive for the state to it's expensive for the state to it's expensive for the state to administer and it's hard for people to administer and it's hard for people to administer and it's hard for people to comply with. comply with. comply with. and then they lose their insurance and and then they lose their insurance and and then they lose their insurance and they find out when they're in the ER, they find out when they're in the ER, they find out when they're in the ER, right? Because oftentimes if you are, right? Because oftentimes if you are, right? Because oftentimes if you are, you know, a younger person, you're you know, a younger person, you're you know, a younger person, you're managing this, that, and the other, you managing this, that, and the other, you managing this, that, and the other, you might not really realize that you're not might not really realize that you're not might not really realize that you're not insured until all of a sudden you're insured until all of a sudden you're insured until all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, I've dislocated my shoulder like, "Oh, I've dislocated my shoulder like, "Oh, I've dislocated my shoulder or I have something that really needs to or I have something that really needs to or I have something that really needs to be checked out." So, yes, as you were be checked out." So, yes, as you were be checked out." So, yes, as you were saying, this does not work unless it saying, this does not work unless it saying, this does not work unless it kicks people off. And they said it kicks people off. And they said it kicks people off. And they said it wasn't a cut. They said they're not wasn't a cut. They said they're not wasn't a cut. They said they're not cutting, but how are you going to get a cutting, but how are you going to get a cutting, but how are you going to get a trillion dollars from the program trillion dollars from the program trillion dollars from the program without cutting? Um, I would also note without cutting? Um, I would also note without cutting? Um, I would also note that the predominant recipients of that the predominant recipients of that the predominant recipients of government benefits, they, you know, government benefits, they, you know, government benefits, they, you know, they're always saying it's about the they're always saying it's about the they're always saying it's about the young guys who don't want to work.

young guys who don't want to work. young guys who don't want to work. They're women. Women who are much more They're women. Women who are much more They're women. Women who are much more likely to be taking care of kids, much likely to be taking care of kids, much likely to be taking care of kids, much more likely to spend a lot more time more likely to spend a lot more time more likely to spend a lot more time doing that, much more likely to be the doing that, much more likely to be the doing that, much more likely to be the person who is managing the household. person who is managing the household. person who is managing the household. And I think that there is a lack of And I think that there is a lack of And I think that there is a lack of integrity. I think it would be one thing integrity. I think it would be one thing integrity. I think it would be one thing to come out and say, "We're cutting. to come out and say, "We're cutting. to come out and say, "We're cutting. We're kicking people off Medicaid. They We're kicking people off Medicaid. They We're kicking people off Medicaid. They should figure out how to get insurance should figure out how to get insurance should figure out how to get insurance in some other way." That is a terrible in some other way." That is a terrible in some other way." That is a terrible policy, but at least it's honest. policy, but at least it's honest. policy, but at least it's honest. This This This This isn't honest. This isn't honest. This isn't honest. And I was talking with somebody who runs And I was talking with somebody who runs And I was talking with somebody who runs a health clinic uh that serves an a health clinic uh that serves an a health clinic uh that serves an indigent, mostly homeless population of indigent, mostly homeless population of indigent, mostly homeless population of folks, many of whom have a substance folks, many of whom have a substance folks, many of whom have a substance abuse problem. abuse problem. abuse problem. And these people, the treatment that And these people, the treatment that And these people, the treatment that they often need is inpatient psychiatric they often need is inpatient psychiatric they often need is inpatient psychiatric treatment and then wraparound supports treatment and then wraparound supports treatment and then wraparound supports to help them get stable. And we know to help them get stable. And we know to help them get stable. And we know that that is the best way to help them. that that is the best way to help them. that that is the best way to help them. That is often what they are seeking. That is often what they are seeking. That is often what they are seeking. That is the care that they get. They're That is the care that they get. They're That is the care that they get. They're all going to lose their insurance.

all going to lose their insurance. all going to lose their insurance. because they're not going to be able to because they're not going to be able to because they're not going to be able to comply with this. They don't have comply with this. They don't have comply with this. They don't have phones. They don't have computers. How phones. They don't have computers. How phones. They don't have computers. How are you supposed to comply with a work are you supposed to comply with a work are you supposed to comply with a work requirement if you're sleeping in a requirement if you're sleeping in a requirement if you're sleeping in a tent? tent? tent? One of the things that people are very One of the things that people are very One of the things that people are very well rewarded for in modernity well rewarded for in modernity well rewarded for in modernity >> is the kind of mind that is very good at >> is the kind of mind that is very good at >> is the kind of mind that is very good at managing tasks and bureaucracies and managing tasks and bureaucracies and managing tasks and bureaucracies and information that like works with information that like works with information that like works with symbolic information very smoothly that symbolic information very smoothly that symbolic information very smoothly that has a lot of executive function that has a lot of executive function that has a lot of executive function that wakes up in the morning and you know wakes up in the morning and you know wakes up in the morning and you know does your morning pages and like writes does your morning pages and like writes does your morning pages and like writes out your task list by the end of the out your task list by the end of the out your task list by the end of the night. You're laughing at me because night. You're laughing at me because night. You're laughing at me because >> you're describing yourself. [laughter] >> you're describing yourself. [laughter] >> you're describing yourself. [laughter] Um, I I I'm I hue to a task. It's true. Um, I I I'm I hue to a task. It's true. Um, I I I'm I hue to a task. It's true. >> The great irony is that I've married >> The great irony is that I've married >> The great irony is that I've married somebody who's good at this stuff somebody who's good at this stuff somebody who's good at this stuff because I do. I have a driver's license. because I do. I have a driver's license. because I do. I have a driver's license. Do I know where it is? Nope. Do I know where it is? Nope. Do I know where it is? Nope. >> I think one yes to the first and no to >> I think one yes to the first and no to >> I think one yes to the first and no to the second. the second. the second. >> Yeah. I think it exists someplace in >> Yeah. I think it exists someplace in >> Yeah. I think it exists someplace in [laughter] time and space. I've [laughter] time and space. I've [laughter] time and space. I've literally talked to my therapist on the literally talked to my therapist on the literally talked to my therapist on the phone and we have opened the mail phone and we have opened the mail phone and we have opened the mail together. together. together. >> So, good good insight there. Good >> So, good good insight there. Good >> So, good good insight there. Good insight there. [laughter] If you don't have that, right? If for If you don't have that, right? If for all kinds of reasons, you know, people all kinds of reasons, you know, people all kinds of reasons, you know, people have addiction issues.

have addiction issues. have addiction issues. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> People grew up in homes where they were >> People grew up in homes where they were >> People grew up in homes where they were badly traumatized. People are operating badly traumatized. People are operating badly traumatized. People are operating under all kinds of other burdens. under all kinds of other burdens. under all kinds of other burdens. People's minds are neurode divergent in People's minds are neurode divergent in People's minds are neurode divergent in a certain way. People have terrible a certain way. People have terrible a certain way. People have terrible social anxiety. social anxiety. social anxiety. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That makes it hard to do the things that >> That makes it hard to do the things that >> That makes it hard to do the things that society rewards you for, things that society rewards you for, things that society rewards you for, things that come very naturally to other people. come very naturally to other people. come very naturally to other people. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Um, we like pretend that people are all >> Um, we like pretend that people are all >> Um, we like pretend that people are all successful because they either worked successful because they either worked successful because they either worked hard or they didn't. And everybody knows hard or they didn't. And everybody knows hard or they didn't. And everybody knows it's [ __ ] it's [ __ ] it's [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the things that help you work hard >> And the things that help you work hard >> And the things that help you work hard and that make you a compulsive worker, and that make you a compulsive worker, and that make you a compulsive worker, you often don't choose those either. you often don't choose those either. you often don't choose those either. >> And so you take somebody who is already >> And so you take somebody who is already >> And so you take somebody who is already struggling with this and maybe that is struggling with this and maybe that is struggling with this and maybe that is part of why they are poor part of why they are poor part of why they are poor >> because like they just have trouble >> because like they just have trouble >> because like they just have trouble navigating modernity. They have navigating modernity. They have navigating modernity. They have depression. They have anxiety. They have depression. They have anxiety. They have depression. They have anxiety. They have other health issues. other health issues. other health issues. And then you begin to pile And then you begin to pile And then you begin to pile bureaucratic procedure on them. bureaucratic procedure on them. bureaucratic procedure on them. >> Pile forms you have to fill out >> Pile forms you have to fill out >> Pile forms you have to fill out >> forms that like routinely I get in late >> forms that like routinely I get in late >> forms that like routinely I get in late or that totally or that totally or that totally >> we get in late >> we get in late >> we get in late >> that I that I get in late. To go back to >> that I that I get in late. To go back to >> that I that I get in late. To go back to one thing you were saying before. Yes. I one thing you were saying before. Yes. I one thing you were saying before. Yes. I think that highinccome people have a think that highinccome people have a think that highinccome people have a often a completely different orientation often a completely different orientation often a completely different orientation towards this kind of paperwork.

towards this kind of paperwork. towards this kind of paperwork. And I really like the the Bernard Suits And I really like the the Bernard Suits And I really like the the Bernard Suits um uh idea of having a lucery attitude, um uh idea of having a lucery attitude, um uh idea of having a lucery attitude, right? The lucery attitude is what makes right? The lucery attitude is what makes right? The lucery attitude is what makes a game a game. Arbitrary rules and this a game a game. Arbitrary rules and this a game a game. Arbitrary rules and this like, okay, I'm going to try and win. like, okay, I'm going to try and win. like, okay, I'm going to try and win. And this is the attitude that many And this is the attitude that many And this is the attitude that many highincome people bring to like for highincome people bring to like for highincome people bring to like for instance a college application. Yale is instance a college application. Yale is instance a college application. Yale is going to make you spend a 100 hours on going to make you spend a 100 hours on going to make you spend a 100 hours on the application. You're like, "Oh, the application. You're like, "Oh, the application. You're like, "Oh, that's another place where I can that's another place where I can that's another place where I can achieve." Right? this meocratic idea of, achieve." Right? this meocratic idea of, achieve." Right? this meocratic idea of, you know, the harder you work, the the you know, the harder you work, the the you know, the harder you work, the the better a boy you are, right? better a boy you are, right? better a boy you are, right? >> Or if you you have highriced >> Or if you you have highriced >> Or if you you have highriced accountants, high price tax preparers, accountants, high price tax preparers, accountants, high price tax preparers, >> it's a game you're trying to win. >> it's a game you're trying to win. >> it's a game you're trying to win. >> We've talked about this that >> We've talked about this that >> We've talked about this that >> sometimes you meet a very highinccome >> sometimes you meet a very highinccome >> sometimes you meet a very highinccome person in our line of work and the person in our line of work and the person in our line of work and the degree to which they talk about tax degree to which they talk about tax degree to which they talk about tax avoidance, they really talk about it all avoidance, they really talk about it all avoidance, they really talk about it all the time. the time. the time. >> They're like kind of getting off on it. >> They're like kind of getting off on it. >> They're like kind of getting off on it. Yeah, exactly. Um and you know and I Yeah, exactly. Um and you know and I Yeah, exactly. Um and you know and I think that we can both take this sort of think that we can both take this sort of think that we can both take this sort of and it's actually it's not just pure and it's actually it's not just pure and it's actually it's not just pure student it's Elizabethan idea of there's student it's Elizabethan idea of there's student it's Elizabethan idea of there's deserving and undeserving and we're deserving and undeserving and we're deserving and undeserving and we're going to separate these to I think that going to separate these to I think that going to separate these to I think that importantly in the United States this importantly in the United States this importantly in the United States this has to get filtered through the prism of has to get filtered through the prism of has to get filtered through the prism of race right the reason that we do not race right the reason that we do not race right the reason that we do not have these kind of universally have these kind of universally have these kind of universally accessible simple benefits is anti-black accessible simple benefits is anti-black accessible simple benefits is anti-black racism uh right a lot of these big racism uh right a lot of these big racism uh right a lot of these big programs are set up during Jim Crow I programs are set up during Jim Crow I programs are set up during Jim Crow I know that this sounds kind of overly know that this sounds kind of overly know that this sounds kind of overly declarative, but I don't think it's it's declarative, but I don't think it's it's declarative, but I don't think it's it's wrong.

wrong. wrong. >> You brought up deserving, undeserving, >> You brought up deserving, undeserving, >> You brought up deserving, undeserving, poor, and one reason that a lot of these poor, and one reason that a lot of these poor, and one reason that a lot of these benefits look like this, including in benefits look like this, including in benefits look like this, including in blue states blue states blue states >> under Democratic governments that >> under Democratic governments that >> under Democratic governments that believe in Medicaid. believe in Medicaid. believe in Medicaid. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That believe in tanniff, >> That believe in tanniff, >> That believe in tanniff, >> that believe in all kinds of tax credits >> that believe in all kinds of tax credits >> that believe in all kinds of tax credits and hands up and all the rest of it is and hands up and all the rest of it is and hands up and all the rest of it is twofold. That one, fraud is a real twofold. That one, fraud is a real twofold. That one, fraud is a real problem. problem. problem. >> Yeah. And two that even just politically >> Yeah. And two that even just politically >> Yeah. And two that even just politically if you believe in these programs if they if you believe in these programs if they if you believe in these programs if they develop a reputation develop a reputation develop a reputation >> yes >> yes >> yes >> for helping people for whom that help is >> for helping people for whom that help is >> for helping people for whom that help is not deserved not deserved not deserved >> right >> right >> right >> the program will be destroyed right this >> the program will be destroyed right this >> the program will be destroyed right this is functionally what happens to welfare is functionally what happens to welfare is functionally what happens to welfare right we have tanif because the view was right we have tanif because the view was right we have tanif because the view was and this was racialized and this was and this was racialized and this was and this was racialized and this was wrong in many cases but it wasn't wrong wrong in many cases but it wasn't wrong wrong in many cases but it wasn't wrong in literally every case that um welfare in literally every case that um welfare in literally every case that um welfare reform was helping people that you know reform was helping people that you know reform was helping people that you know middle America didn't think should be middle America didn't think should be middle America didn't think should be helped And that got strong enough that a helped And that got strong enough that a helped And that got strong enough that a Democrat was the one who ended up Democrat was the one who ended up Democrat was the one who ended up gutting it.

gutting it. gutting it. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So what about the arguments, you know, >> So what about the arguments, you know, >> So what about the arguments, you know, that actual policy makers make for doing that actual policy makers make for doing that actual policy makers make for doing things this way? things this way? things this way? >> I think it's important when you're >> I think it's important when you're >> I think it's important when you're thinking about the shift from AFDC to thinking about the shift from AFDC to thinking about the shift from AFDC to TANFS. This is what happens in 96. TANFS. This is what happens in 96. TANFS. This is what happens in 96. >> Old welfare to >> Old welfare to >> Old welfare to >> old welfare to new welfare. And old >> old welfare to new welfare. And old >> old welfare to new welfare. And old welfare, it used to be an entitlement. welfare, it used to be an entitlement. welfare, it used to be an entitlement. If you met the criteria, you got it. If you met the criteria, you got it. If you met the criteria, you got it. That's not true anymore at all. That's not true anymore at all. That's not true anymore at all. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] you can meet the criteria. This is true you can meet the criteria. This is true you can meet the criteria. This is true for a lot of public programs actually, for a lot of public programs actually, for a lot of public programs actually, housing vouchers, that kind of thing. housing vouchers, that kind of thing. housing vouchers, that kind of thing. You can meet all the criteria, you might You can meet all the criteria, you might You can meet all the criteria, you might not get it. not get it. not get it. >> Um, which is crazy to high-income >> Um, which is crazy to high-income >> Um, which is crazy to high-income people, I think, where it's almost people, I think, where it's almost people, I think, where it's almost always like you meet the criteria, always like you meet the criteria, always like you meet the criteria, you're going to get it. you're going to get it. you're going to get it. >> Yeah. If you have a mortgage, you get >> Yeah. If you have a mortgage, you get >> Yeah. If you have a mortgage, you get the mortgage interest deduction. the mortgage interest deduction. the mortgage interest deduction. >> Yeah. They're not shuffling around who >> Yeah. They're not shuffling around who >> Yeah. They're not shuffling around who gets it and who doesn't. gets it and who doesn't. gets it and who doesn't. >> If you're uh eligible for section 8 >> If you're uh eligible for section 8 >> If you're uh eligible for section 8 vouchers, you may not. vouchers, you may not. vouchers, you may not. >> Yeah. You might not, you know, and you >> Yeah. You might not, you know, and you >> Yeah. You might not, you know, and you or you might wait 10 years, 12 years, or you might wait 10 years, 12 years, or you might wait 10 years, 12 years, right? And it might not be obvious to right? And it might not be obvious to right? And it might not be obvious to you why some people are getting it and you why some people are getting it and you why some people are getting it and some it's often you know not entirely some it's often you know not entirely some it's often you know not entirely obvious to the people within those obvious to the people within those obvious to the people within those organizations either I would note but um organizations either I would note but um organizations either I would note but um yes the shift to AFDC to TANF is yes the shift to AFDC to TANF is yes the shift to AFDC to TANF is driven not wholly driven not wholly driven not wholly but at least strongly by racial concerns but at least strongly by racial concerns but at least strongly by racial concerns not fraud concerns. Those come together not fraud concerns. Those come together not fraud concerns. Those come together right? These are two sides of the same right? These are two sides of the same right? These are two sides of the same coin. uh the originator the the program coin. uh the originator the the program coin. uh the originator the the program that comes like way earlier is this that comes like way earlier is this that comes like way earlier is this mother's pension program which is used mother's pension program which is used mother's pension program which is used almost it's run at the state level. It's almost it's run at the state level. It's almost it's run at the state level. It's used almost exclusively by white women used almost exclusively by white women used almost exclusively by white women in which you you know if you were a good

in which you you know if you were a good in which you you know if you were a good widow or a woman who had been abandoned widow or a woman who had been abandoned widow or a woman who had been abandoned and you had kids you would have kind of and you had kids you would have kind of and you had kids you would have kind of a social worker come and it was very a social worker come and it was very a social worker come and it was very paternalistic but you know it was paternalistic but you know it was paternalistic but you know it was supposed to be wages for being a mother supposed to be wages for being a mother supposed to be wages for being a mother and doing the most important work uh in and doing the most important work uh in and doing the most important work uh in American life. This is like a old American life. This is like a old American life. This is like a old progressive era policy, right? But then progressive era policy, right? But then progressive era policy, right? But then uh uh when you get ADC, which then uh uh when you get ADC, which then uh uh when you get ADC, which then becomes AFDC, this is complicated part becomes AFDC, this is complicated part becomes AFDC, this is complicated part of social security. Um because it's an of social security. Um because it's an of social security. Um because it's an entitlement, uh because black women are entitlement, uh because black women are entitlement, uh because black women are more likely to be low wage, you know, more likely to be low wage, you know, more likely to be low wage, you know, when they have kids. Yeah. They use the when they have kids. Yeah. They use the when they have kids. Yeah. They use the program and the entire program becomes program and the entire program becomes program and the entire program becomes about, you know, the the media about, you know, the the media about, you know, the the media conception of the program. Whenever they conception of the program. Whenever they conception of the program. Whenever they show images, there's a really great show images, there's a really great show images, there's a really great study by Martin Gland showing that study by Martin Gland showing that study by Martin Gland showing that whenever they show images, they're not whenever they show images, they're not whenever they show images, they're not showing white women anymore. Even though showing white women anymore. Even though showing white women anymore. Even though black women are never a majority user of black women are never a majority user of black women are never a majority user of the program, they are never, they still the program, they are never, they still the program, they are never, they still aren't. Uh, you know, it's these black aren't. Uh, you know, it's these black aren't. Uh, you know, it's these black families in urban areas. And that is families in urban areas. And that is families in urban areas. And that is partially along with concerns about the partially along with concerns about the partially along with concerns about the rising cost and everything else is what rising cost and everything else is what rising cost and everything else is what leads to this backlash that you can leads to this backlash that you can leads to this backlash that you can actually trace the way that politicians actually trace the way that politicians actually trace the way that politicians are talking about it. They stop talking are talking about it. They stop talking are talking about it. They stop talking about kids. They start talking about about kids. They start talking about about kids. They start talking about moms and they start saying that well moms and they start saying that well moms and they start saying that well these moms need to be working and you these moms need to be working and you these moms need to be working and you know they start saying well welfare is a know they start saying well welfare is a know they start saying well welfare is a work program and it transforms and that work program and it transforms and that work program and it transforms and that leads to 96 which then leads to us leads to 96 which then leads to us leads to 96 which then leads to us there. So I would just note that I think

there. So I would just note that I think there. So I would just note that I think that when you are thinking about fraud, that when you are thinking about fraud, that when you are thinking about fraud, it's really important to think about um it's really important to think about um it's really important to think about um the racial diversity in this country and the racial diversity in this country and the racial diversity in this country and the way that that has changed the way the way that that has changed the way the way that that has changed the way that we set our public programs up. that we set our public programs up. that we set our public programs up. Second thing is that there would be way Second thing is that there would be way Second thing is that there would be way less fraud if the programs were simpler less fraud if the programs were simpler less fraud if the programs were simpler and easier, and easier, and easier, right? If you have fewer rules and the right? If you have fewer rules and the right? If you have fewer rules and the government does more work to determine government does more work to determine government does more work to determine like, okay, we're going to look at your like, okay, we're going to look at your like, okay, we're going to look at your tax returns and figure out if you tax returns and figure out if you tax returns and figure out if you actually get this, we're not going to actually get this, we're not going to actually get this, we're not going to have asset tests and all these other have asset tests and all these other have asset tests and all these other little kind of fussy finicky things. little kind of fussy finicky things. little kind of fussy finicky things. There would be fewer people getting There would be fewer people getting There would be fewer people getting overpayments, underpayments, overpayments, underpayments, overpayments, underpayments, inappropriate payments. I would note inappropriate payments. I would note inappropriate payments. I would note that we have not a great sense of how that we have not a great sense of how that we have not a great sense of how much fraud there is in these programs. much fraud there is in these programs. much fraud there is in these programs. We have an improper payment error, We have an improper payment error, We have an improper payment error, right? right? right? Which is, you know, just right like when Which is, you know, just right like when Which is, you know, just right like when they go back and they look, did you get they go back and they look, did you get they go back and they look, did you get too much? Did you get too little? A lot too much? Did you get too little? A lot too much? Did you get too little? A lot of it is driven by the by the complexity of it is driven by the by the complexity of it is driven by the by the complexity of the program itself and the fact that of the program itself and the fact that of the program itself and the fact that the government is not doing the work.

the government is not doing the work. the government is not doing the work. It's these people who are kind of It's these people who are kind of It's these people who are kind of pulling together forms or, you know, pulling together forms or, you know, pulling together forms or, you know, filling out this and oh gosh, who could filling out this and oh gosh, who could filling out this and oh gosh, who could imagine anybody filling this out imagine anybody filling this out imagine anybody filling this out incorrectly? incorrectly? incorrectly? And yes, there's fraud. There's And yes, there's fraud. There's And yes, there's fraud. There's absolutely fraud. I'm not saying that absolutely fraud. I'm not saying that absolutely fraud. I'm not saying that there isn't there isn't there isn't >> fraud is both real and whose fraud we >> fraud is both real and whose fraud we >> fraud is both real and whose fraud we choose to care about choose to care about choose to care about >> is telling >> is telling >> is telling >> who does a lot of the Medicaid and >> who does a lot of the Medicaid and >> who does a lot of the Medicaid and Medicare fraud doctors Medicare fraud doctors Medicare fraud doctors >> or the um heads of large organizations >> or the um heads of large organizations >> or the um heads of large organizations like Rick Scott, a senator from Florida like Rick Scott, a senator from Florida like Rick Scott, a senator from Florida who ran a I believe it's a for-profit who ran a I believe it's a for-profit who ran a I believe it's a for-profit hospital organization that was one of hospital organization that was one of hospital organization that was one of the largest fraud that had to do one of the largest fraud that had to do one of the largest fraud that had to do one of the largest fraud settlements with the largest fraud settlements with the largest fraud settlements with Medicare in history. Yeah. Separately, Medicare in history. Yeah. Separately, Medicare in history. Yeah. Separately, Donald Trump. You got to you got to be Donald Trump. You got to you got to be Donald Trump. You got to you got to be real fancy to do a big Medicare fraud. real fancy to do a big Medicare fraud. real fancy to do a big Medicare fraud. >> Donald Trump pardoned um pardoned or >> Donald Trump pardoned um pardoned or >> Donald Trump pardoned um pardoned or commuted, I don't remember, but did one commuted, I don't remember, but did one commuted, I don't remember, but did one of the two. Um somebody who had settled of the two. Um somebody who had settled of the two. Um somebody who had settled one of the largest fraud cases with one of the largest fraud cases with one of the largest fraud cases with Medicare more recently. You you you do Medicare more recently. You you you do Medicare more recently. You you you do have real fraud on the individ on the have real fraud on the individ on the have real fraud on the individ on the part of individuals. On the other hand, part of individuals. On the other hand, part of individuals. On the other hand, >> Trump and the Republicans gutting the >> Trump and the Republicans gutting the >> Trump and the Republicans gutting the IRS audit division has made fraud a lot IRS audit division has made fraud a lot IRS audit division has made fraud a lot easier for high-income taxpayers.

easier for high-income taxpayers. easier for high-income taxpayers. >> You know, they are not going after >> You know, they are not going after >> You know, they are not going after Medicare and Medicaid fraud um in the Medicare and Medicaid fraud um in the Medicare and Medicaid fraud um in the way they could. But I mean there are a way they could. But I mean there are a way they could. But I mean there are a lot of way like the biggest frauds come lot of way like the biggest frauds come lot of way like the biggest frauds come from organized from organized from organized actors both legitimate and illegitimate. actors both legitimate and illegitimate. actors both legitimate and illegitimate. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who are able to do kind of complex >> Who are able to do kind of complex >> Who are able to do kind of complex frauds that are not about like putting frauds that are not about like putting frauds that are not about like putting the wrong name down on a form. the wrong name down on a form. the wrong name down on a form. >> Yeah. It's unbundling services. It's >> Yeah. It's unbundling services. It's >> Yeah. It's unbundling services. It's complicated. You got to complicated. You got to complicated. You got to >> It's buying fake It's buying like leaked >> It's buying fake It's buying like leaked >> It's buying fake It's buying like leaked information online and using that to information online and using that to information online and using that to apply for unemployment apply for unemployment apply for unemployment >> insurance criminal groups. It's you know >> insurance criminal groups. It's you know >> insurance criminal groups. It's you know >> you know and you do I mean in Minnesota, >> you know and you do I mean in Minnesota, >> you know and you do I mean in Minnesota, right? like the kind of smaller ring right? like the kind of smaller ring right? like the kind of smaller ring frauds which are real whereas frauds which are real whereas frauds which are real whereas organizational. organizational. organizational. >> Yes, absolutely. I can tell you this. >> Yes, absolutely. I can tell you this. >> Yes, absolutely. I can tell you this. There would be more improper payments in There would be more improper payments in There would be more improper payments in the home mortgage interest deduction tax the home mortgage interest deduction tax the home mortgage interest deduction tax program which to be clear we should program which to be clear we should program which to be clear we should think of as a benefit program because it think of as a benefit program because it think of as a benefit program because it is even if we don't frame it that way. is even if we don't frame it that way. is even if we don't frame it that way. If you had to do piss tests, how many If you had to do piss tests, how many If you had to do piss tests, how many people would get would get their benefit people would get would get their benefit people would get would get their benefit revoked for that? I wonder revoked for that? I wonder revoked for that? I wonder >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> if you had to do this form instead of >> if you had to do this form instead of >> if you had to do this form instead of like ticking a single box that actually like ticking a single box that actually like ticking a single box that actually your accountant is doing because you your accountant is doing because you your accountant is doing because you don't do your own taxes, don't do your own taxes, don't do your own taxes, you know.

you know. you know. >> Well, this goes to maybe the time tax >> Well, this goes to maybe the time tax >> Well, this goes to maybe the time tax and also like a good place to see the and also like a good place to see the and also like a good place to see the choices we're making that the most choices we're making that the most choices we're making that the most people interact with in America, which people interact with in America, which people interact with in America, which is the tax system itself. is the tax system itself. is the tax system itself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, this is part of the book. Uh, >> So, this is part of the book. Uh, >> So, this is part of the book. Uh, how does our tax system work from this how does our tax system work from this how does our tax system work from this perspective and how could it? perspective and how could it? perspective and how could it? >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. In Japan, In Japan, In Japan, for the most part, if you're earning a for the most part, if you're earning a for the most part, if you're earning a salary, you don't ever have to do your salary, you don't ever have to do your salary, you don't ever have to do your taxes. Japanese tax authority just does taxes. Japanese tax authority just does taxes. Japanese tax authority just does it for you. In a number of European it for you. In a number of European it for you. In a number of European countries, you can like I forget whether countries, you can like I forget whether countries, you can like I forget whether it's Sweden or Finland. You do it by it's Sweden or Finland. You do it by it's Sweden or Finland. You do it by text message. text message. text message. Norway. Sorry to the Nordics. [laughter] Norway. Sorry to the Nordics. [laughter] Norway. Sorry to the Nordics. [laughter] Paul, Paul, Paul, >> do they all look the same to you, Annie? >> do they all look the same to you, Annie? >> do they all look the same to you, Annie? >> I'm just I can't remember which one. I'm >> I'm just I can't remember which one. I'm >> I'm just I can't remember which one. I'm so sorry. The Danes are over here and so sorry. The Danes are over here and so sorry. The Danes are over here and they're like, "It's not us." And uh in they're like, "It's not us." And uh in they're like, "It's not us." And uh in many other peer countries, they'll just many other peer countries, they'll just many other peer countries, they'll just send you a form that's mostly filled out send you a form that's mostly filled out send you a form that's mostly filled out and you can figure out if you want to do and you can figure out if you want to do and you can figure out if you want to do any changes and then maybe you sign it, any changes and then maybe you sign it, any changes and then maybe you sign it, you send it back. It is like visible.

you send it back. It is like visible. you send it back. It is like visible. You know when Europeans are like wait You know when Europeans are like wait You know when Europeans are like wait your health care system works how your health care system works how your health care system works how you got build for what? you got build for what? you got build for what? like you know the whole right like you like you know the whole right like you like you know the whole right like you ask a European like oh how much did it ask a European like oh how much did it ask a European like oh how much did it did you have to pay to get that baby did you have to pay to get that baby did you have to pay to get that baby [laughter] like pardon [laughter] like pardon [laughter] like pardon um sort of similarly I think if people um sort of similarly I think if people um sort of similarly I think if people understood understood understood that the IRS I'm not saying they're not that the IRS I'm not saying they're not that the IRS I'm not saying they're not like a competent and professional agency like a competent and professional agency like a competent and professional agency at doing what they're doing and in fact at doing what they're doing and in fact at doing what they're doing and in fact I know a lot of civil servants at the I know a lot of civil servants at the I know a lot of civil servants at the IRS that are like chomping at the bit to IRS that are like chomping at the bit to IRS that are like chomping at the bit to be able to do people's taxes for them be able to do people's taxes for them be able to do people's taxes for them they're not allowed to they're not they're not allowed to they're not they're not allowed to they're not allowed Well, here's the crazy thing allowed Well, here's the crazy thing allowed Well, here's the crazy thing about this because I think it's worth about this because I think it's worth about this because I think it's worth like getting at the mechanism here. The like getting at the mechanism here. The like getting at the mechanism here. The IRS has all the information. IRS has all the information. IRS has all the information. >> They do. >> They do. >> They do. >> So, the reason the IRS can come after >> So, the reason the IRS can come after >> So, the reason the IRS can come after you fill out your taxes and say you fill out your taxes and say you fill out your taxes and say [clears throat] you underpaid [clears throat] you underpaid [clears throat] you underpaid >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is because they know how much you're >> is because they know how much you're >> is because they know how much you're supposed to pay. supposed to pay. supposed to pay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And given that they know how much you're >> And given that they know how much you're >> And given that they know how much you're supposed to pay, they could just tell supposed to pay, they could just tell supposed to pay, they could just tell you how much you're supposed to pay. you how much you're supposed to pay. you how much you're supposed to pay. >> And in other countries, they just tell >> And in other countries, they just tell >> And in other countries, they just tell you how much you're supposed to pay and you how much you're supposed to pay and you how much you're supposed to pay and then you're like, "Okay, great." And then you're like, "Okay, great." And then you're like, "Okay, great." And then you pay it. We even had a pilot then you pay it. We even had a pilot then you pay it. We even had a pilot program of letting the IRS tell you how program of letting the IRS tell you how program of letting the IRS tell you how much you're supposed to pay in direct much you're supposed to pay in direct much you're supposed to pay in direct file and Trump just killed it. Yeah.

file and Trump just killed it. Yeah. file and Trump just killed it. Yeah. >> And people liked it. >> And people liked it. >> And people liked it. >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. Direct file. It was >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. Direct file. It was >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. Direct file. It was great. There's two things. There's two great. There's two things. There's two great. There's two things. There's two things here. So, one is that the US tax things here. So, one is that the US tax things here. So, one is that the US tax system is system is system is so complex. There are so many write offs so complex. There are so many write offs so complex. There are so many write offs and kind of arcane fussy little and kind of arcane fussy little and kind of arcane fussy little provisions that do require people to provisions that do require people to provisions that do require people to tell the IRS. But most people that's tell the IRS. But most people that's tell the IRS. But most people that's like not true for most Americans take like not true for most Americans take like not true for most Americans take the standard deduction which means that the standard deduction which means that the standard deduction which means that you're not itemizing things. It's 9 and you're not itemizing things. It's 9 and you're not itemizing things. It's 9 and 10 take the standard deduction. The 10 take the standard deduction. The 10 take the standard deduction. The second is that there's uh legal second is that there's uh legal second is that there's uh legal prohibitions on data sharing between US prohibitions on data sharing between US prohibitions on data sharing between US government agencies. So HHS might have government agencies. So HHS might have government agencies. So HHS might have some information on you. They can't send some information on you. They can't send some information on you. They can't send it to the IRS very easily for the most it to the IRS very easily for the most it to the IRS very easily for the most part. These systems don't talk to each part. These systems don't talk to each part. These systems don't talk to each other. And very often in other other. And very often in other other. And very often in other countries, they do. And for a lot of countries, they do. And for a lot of countries, they do. And for a lot of Americans, the idea of having a Americans, the idea of having a Americans, the idea of having a government that has a unitary repository government that has a unitary repository government that has a unitary repository of all of this information and it's all of all of this information and it's all of all of this information and it's all connected is really terrifying. We have connected is really terrifying. We have connected is really terrifying. We have very little social trust and I think very little social trust and I think very little social trust and I think correctly.

correctly. correctly. Why would we? Um, however, you can Why would we? Um, however, you can Why would we? Um, however, you can always give people the option. Make it a always give people the option. Make it a always give people the option. Make it a permission. I want the government to permission. I want the government to permission. I want the government to fill up my taxes for me. I want the fill up my taxes for me. I want the fill up my taxes for me. I want the government to search for benefit government to search for benefit government to search for benefit programs and then go get the data from programs and then go get the data from programs and then go get the data from the state tax office and the IRS. You the state tax office and the IRS. You the state tax office and the IRS. You know, just think about optionality. I know, just think about optionality. I know, just think about optionality. I think a lot of really lowincome people think a lot of really lowincome people think a lot of really lowincome people might be like, "Yeah, if I could just might be like, "Yeah, if I could just might be like, "Yeah, if I could just tick a box and have them do as much as tick a box and have them do as much as tick a box and have them do as much as they could, that would be great." And I they could, that would be great." And I they could, that would be great." And I think that letting databases talk to think that letting databases talk to think that letting databases talk to each other with permission is different each other with permission is different each other with permission is different than probably having it in a big than probably having it in a big than probably having it in a big database. database. database. >> So I want to stop here because one of >> So I want to stop here because one of >> So I want to stop here because one of the moments in the book where you said the moments in the book where you said the moments in the book where you said something that just like stopped me a something that just like stopped me a something that just like stopped me a little cold was you went to Estonia. little cold was you went to Estonia. little cold was you went to Estonia. >> Uh I remember when you went to Estonia. >> Uh I remember when you went to Estonia. >> Uh I remember when you went to Estonia. >> You didn't tell me much about that trip. >> You didn't tell me much about that trip. >> You didn't tell me much about that trip. So I read about it [laughter] in your So I read about it [laughter] in your So I read about it [laughter] in your book book book >> and you talk about Estonia's only once >> and you talk about Estonia's only once >> and you talk about Estonia's only once policy. policy. policy. >> Oh yeah. Like this was so utopic.

>> Oh yeah. Like this was so utopic. >> Oh yeah. Like this was so utopic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That it's almost hard to read about it. >> That it's almost hard to read about it. >> That it's almost hard to read about it. What what is the Estonia only once What what is the Estonia only once What what is the Estonia only once policy? policy? policy? >> So Estonia creates a government denovo >> So Estonia creates a government denovo >> So Estonia creates a government denovo not that long ago, right? not that long ago, right? not that long ago, right? >> Posts Soviet. >> Posts Soviet. >> Posts Soviet. >> Yeah. They get their independence back >> Yeah. They get their independence back >> Yeah. They get their independence back and it's all really young people that and it's all really young people that and it's all really young people that are not that this is the most important are not that this is the most important are not that this is the most important thing, but I do think it's interesting thing, but I do think it's interesting thing, but I do think it's interesting in the history. often the people who are in the history. often the people who are in the history. often the people who are putting a government together in their putting a government together in their putting a government together in their like 20s and 30s, a lot of them are not like 20s and 30s, a lot of them are not like 20s and 30s, a lot of them are not actually retirement age now actually retirement age now actually retirement age now and uh or just barely retirement age and uh or just barely retirement age and uh or just barely retirement age now. And uh they are extremely now. And uh they are extremely now. And uh they are extremely poor. poor. poor. They are financially distressed. They They are financially distressed. They They are financially distressed. They need foreign investment and they need need foreign investment and they need need foreign investment and they need the support of institutions like the the support of institutions like the the support of institutions like the IMF. So they want to also after the IMF. So they want to also after the IMF. So they want to also after the Soviet experience, they want to have a Soviet experience, they want to have a Soviet experience, they want to have a government that people kind of trust and government that people kind of trust and government that people kind of trust and believe in. And they end up putting believe in. And they end up putting believe in. And they end up putting together the most together the most together the most uh like technologically advanced uh like technologically advanced uh like technologically advanced government I think perhaps on earth.

government I think perhaps on earth. government I think perhaps on earth. >> Almost certainly. >> Almost certainly. >> Almost certainly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like at least in terms of service >> Like at least in terms of service >> Like at least in terms of service delivery. delivery. delivery. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh they have this policy And uh they have this policy And uh they have this policy that if you tell any part of the that if you tell any part of the that if you tell any part of the Estonian government a single piece of Estonian government a single piece of Estonian government a single piece of information, I had a kid. I switched information, I had a kid. I switched information, I had a kid. I switched addresses. It you only tell the addresses. It you only tell the addresses. It you only tell the government once, only once. government once, only once. government once, only once. So like if you tell your kids school, So like if you tell your kids school, So like if you tell your kids school, you know, like here's our new address, you know, like here's our new address, you know, like here's our new address, it just updates it with every other it just updates it with every other it just updates it with every other agency. And they have this unified agency. And they have this unified agency. And they have this unified system of benefits that you can go system of benefits that you can go system of benefits that you can go online and see like your voting record, online and see like your voting record, online and see like your voting record, your property records, um you know, your property records, um you know, your property records, um you know, access your medical, right? And I was access your medical, right? And I was access your medical, right? And I was sitting sitting sitting with a woman who was showing me this and with a woman who was showing me this and with a woman who was showing me this and I was like, I don't even know how I I was like, I don't even know how I I was like, I don't even know how I would get all of like you know your your would get all of like you know your your would get all of like you know your your educational records, right? Like I was educational records, right? Like I was educational records, right? Like I was like, does the government have any idea like, does the government have any idea like, does the government have any idea where I the public school where I went where I the public school where I went where I the public school where I went to elementary school? How would you even to elementary school? How would you even to elementary school? How would you even know? know? know? And so, yeah, going back to the IRS, And so, yeah, going back to the IRS, And so, yeah, going back to the IRS, there is a challenge, but again, it's there is a challenge, but again, it's there is a challenge, but again, it's like they don't want to meet it. They like they don't want to meet it. They like they don't want to meet it. They want you to have to do your own taxes.

want you to have to do your own taxes. want you to have to do your own taxes. And so, you know, this costs Americans, And so, you know, this costs Americans, And so, you know, this costs Americans, >> but it's notions of hours. It's not the >> but it's notions of hours. It's not the >> but it's notions of hours. It's not the IRS that wants you to do your tax. It is IRS that wants you to do your tax. It is IRS that wants you to do your tax. It is Republicans in It's not Congress, it's Republicans in It's not Congress, it's Republicans in It's not Congress, it's Republicans. [snorts] Republicans. [snorts] Republicans. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because Republicans forever have wanted >> Because Republicans forever have wanted >> Because Republicans forever have wanted taxes to be hard, so you hate the taxes to be hard, so you hate the taxes to be hard, so you hate the government. government. government. >> Yeah. And it's not just because they're >> Yeah. And it's not just because they're >> Yeah. And it's not just because they're in the pocket of like big tax preparer in the pocket of like big tax preparer in the pocket of like big tax preparer although they are a little bit in the although they are a little bit in the although they are a little bit in the pocket big tax preparer like in it and pocket big tax preparer like in it and pocket big tax preparer like in it and others have done a lot of lobbying on others have done a lot of lobbying on others have done a lot of lobbying on this this this >> lobby so heavily it's a big industry >> lobby so heavily it's a big industry >> lobby so heavily it's a big industry >> so heavily >> so heavily >> so heavily >> but if every time you meet the >> but if every time you meet the >> but if every time you meet the government government government >> it is smooth and seamless and you walk >> it is smooth and seamless and you walk >> it is smooth and seamless and you walk away thinking that government's pretty away thinking that government's pretty away thinking that government's pretty great great great >> then you're going to want more >> then you're going to want more >> then you're going to want more government government government >> totally >> totally >> totally >> and Republicans don't want you to want >> and Republicans don't want you to want >> and Republicans don't want you to want more government and so it creates this more government and so it creates this more government and so it creates this kind of kind of kind of >> kind of don't they now right like they >> kind of don't they now right like they >> kind of don't they now right like they want government for some people. There's want government for some people. There's want government for some people. There's a whole thing about Donald Trump, a whole thing about Donald Trump, a whole thing about Donald Trump, >> but they don't want to fish a >> but they don't want to fish a >> but they don't want to fish a government, although I will say about government, although I will say about government, although I will say about Doge. One of the things I just remember Doge. One of the things I just remember Doge. One of the things I just remember thinking about with Doge, you and I thinking about with Doge, you and I thinking about with Doge, you and I talking about is a number of times when talking about is a number of times when talking about is a number of times when I would I would I would >> walk out of here, [laughter] >> walk out of here, [laughter] >> walk out of here, [laughter] >> when I'd be reporting on the way social >> when I'd be reporting on the way social >> when I'd be reporting on the way social benefits worked or something and I would benefits worked or something and I would benefits worked or something and I would run into all of these privacy run into all of these privacy run into all of these privacy considerations in the government. We considerations in the government. We considerations in the government. We could we can't do the obvious thing could we can't do the obvious thing could we can't do the obvious thing because the IRS won't share any data.

because the IRS won't share any data. because the IRS won't share any data. Yes. And it's like that's a firewall and Yes. And it's like that's a firewall and Yes. And it's like that's a firewall and we just can't get through it even though we just can't get through it even though we just can't get through it even though that's how we could make everything work that's how we could make everything work that's how we could make everything work a lot better. And then it turned out a lot better. And then it turned out a lot better. And then it turned out that that wasn't a firewall. And I'm not that that wasn't a firewall. And I'm not that that wasn't a firewall. And I'm not saying what Elon Musk and Doge did was saying what Elon Musk and Doge did was saying what Elon Musk and Doge did was legal. It was probably not legal. It legal. It was probably not legal. It legal. It was probably not legal. It turned out to be doable. turned out to be doable. turned out to be doable. >> Look, one way or another, guess who gets >> Look, one way or another, guess who gets >> Look, one way or another, guess who gets to change laws? Congress. to change laws? Congress. to change laws? Congress. >> You could make things work better. We >> You could make things work better. We >> You could make things work better. We have taken too much of how the have taken too much of how the have taken too much of how the government works as settled and government works as settled and government works as settled and unchangeable. And it's not. and Doge unchangeable. And it's not. and Doge unchangeable. And it's not. and Doge was, you know, running through walls was, you know, running through walls was, you know, running through walls destructively, destructively, destructively, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But one thing they really showed was a >> But one thing they really showed was a >> But one thing they really showed was a lot of things that say the Obama or lot of things that say the Obama or lot of things that say the Obama or Biden administrations treated as Biden administrations treated as Biden administrations treated as sacrian. sacrian. sacrian. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Those were guidelines. Those were >> Those were guidelines. Those were >> Those were guidelines. Those were recommendations from your lawyers. recommendations from your lawyers. recommendations from your lawyers. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And maybe >> And maybe >> And maybe it's worth it to start breaking some it's worth it to start breaking some it's worth it to start breaking some guidelines and rewriting rules in order guidelines and rewriting rules in order guidelines and rewriting rules in order to make the government work better. to make the government work better. to make the government work better. There's a deeper issue here which is There's a deeper issue here which is There's a deeper issue here which is that Congress does not see itself as the that Congress does not see itself as the that Congress does not see itself as the administrator of anything. administrator of anything. administrator of anything. >> You know, my view is Congress should get >> You know, my view is Congress should get >> You know, my view is Congress should get rid of the filibuster and then when rid of the filibuster and then when rid of the filibuster and then when Democrats are in power. Yes. Like they Democrats are in power. Yes. Like they Democrats are in power. Yes. Like they should actually do the things they say should actually do the things they say should actually do the things they say they're going to do and vote on a party they're going to do and vote on a party they're going to do and vote on a party line to do them and then see if the line to do them and then see if the line to do them and then see if the public likes them and then if the public public likes them and then if the public public likes them and then if the public does like it, they can be reelected.

does like it, they can be reelected. does like it, they can be reelected. >> And that's how democracy is supposed to >> And that's how democracy is supposed to >> And that's how democracy is supposed to work. work. work. >> Instead of this like we can't do >> Instead of this like we can't do >> Instead of this like we can't do anything and we would like you to study anything and we would like you to study anything and we would like you to study congressional procedure to understand congressional procedure to understand congressional procedure to understand why. Let's have a parliament [laughter] why. Let's have a parliament [laughter] why. Let's have a parliament [laughter] on the bumper sticker, dear. Right. on the bumper sticker, dear. Right. on the bumper sticker, dear. Right. Like, take away presidential power and Like, take away presidential power and Like, take away presidential power and think of a prime minister. It's gonna think of a prime minister. It's gonna think of a prime minister. It's gonna [snorts] be really popular. [snorts] be really popular. [snorts] be really popular. >> The essay wants to abolish a Senate. >> The essay wants to abolish a Senate. >> The essay wants to abolish a Senate. >> This is the moderate position now. >> This is the moderate position now. >> This is the moderate position now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The thing you're really debating in this >> The thing you're really debating in this >> The thing you're really debating in this book pretty explicitly is the book pretty explicitly is the book pretty explicitly is the federalization of powers. federalization of powers. federalization of powers. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That you do not like how many programs >> That you do not like how many programs >> That you do not like how many programs are state administered. are state administered. are state administered. >> You definitely don't like it when it >> You definitely don't like it when it >> You definitely don't like it when it goes down to the county level. Like goes down to the county level. Like goes down to the county level. Like you're you're arguing for a simpler but you're you're arguing for a simpler but you're you're arguing for a simpler but bigger and more national government. bigger and more national government. bigger and more national government. >> Yes, things should be federalized. >> Yes, things should be federalized. >> Yes, things should be federalized. >> What do you want to federalize? >> What do you want to federalize? >> What do you want to federalize? >> Oh my goodness. So there there are some >> Oh my goodness. So there there are some >> Oh my goodness. So there there are some constitutional issues here. I'm not a constitutional issues here. I'm not a constitutional issues here. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to get into them. lawyer. I'm not going to get into them. lawyer. I'm not going to get into them. Yes, Medicaid federalize it. UI Yes, Medicaid federalize it. UI Yes, Medicaid federalize it. UI unemployment insurance federalize it. unemployment insurance federalize it. unemployment insurance federalize it. Tannif, if you're going to have it, Tannif, if you're going to have it, Tannif, if you're going to have it, federalize it. any program.

federalize it. any program. federalize it. any program. Yeah, this is my bumper sticker is like Yeah, this is my bumper sticker is like Yeah, this is my bumper sticker is like I hate laboratories of democracy. The I hate laboratories of democracy. The I hate laboratories of democracy. The federal government is better at doing federal government is better at doing federal government is better at doing this. They are for a few reasons. One, this. They are for a few reasons. One, this. They are for a few reasons. One, they don't have balanced budget they don't have balanced budget they don't have balanced budget requirements, right? requirements, right? requirements, right? >> This is actually like a really big >> This is actually like a really big >> This is actually like a really big thing. States and cities do. thing. States and cities do. thing. States and cities do. >> The second is just like a simple >> The second is just like a simple >> The second is just like a simple who like how many agencies are we going who like how many agencies are we going who like how many agencies are we going to have doing the same work type to have doing the same work type to have doing the same work type question. There's 56 Medicaid programs. question. There's 56 Medicaid programs. question. There's 56 Medicaid programs. >> Yeah. What happens when you move? >> Yeah. What happens when you move? >> Yeah. What happens when you move? >> Yes. It's a constant, right? Like it >> Yes. It's a constant, right? Like it >> Yes. It's a constant, right? Like it happens all of the time. happens all of the time. happens all of the time. >> And if you're like housing insecure, you >> And if you're like housing insecure, you >> And if you're like housing insecure, you move a lot. move a lot. move a lot. >> Yeah. Totally. And I think that there is >> Yeah. Totally. And I think that there is >> Yeah. Totally. And I think that there is uh a floor that so many state and local uh a floor that so many state and local uh a floor that so many state and local pro programs sink below that. That seems pro programs sink below that. That seems pro programs sink below that. That seems like a much more important issue to me like a much more important issue to me like a much more important issue to me than the laboratories of democracy that than the laboratories of democracy that than the laboratories of democracy that actually go above and beyond and have actually go above and beyond and have actually go above and beyond and have great benefits. Although it's very great benefits. Although it's very great benefits. Although it's very interesting to me that it's not interesting to me that it's not interesting to me that it's not necessarily blue states that have better necessarily blue states that have better necessarily blue states that have better administration than red states because administration than red states because administration than red states because they're under the same constraints, they're under the same constraints, they're under the same constraints, right? So, right? So, right? So, >> and they're also often so highly >> and they're also often so highly >> and they're also often so highly proceduralized their own government that proceduralized their own government that proceduralized their own government that they're less effective. Like you often they're less effective. Like you often they're less effective. Like you often have like more generous benefits in a have like more generous benefits in a have like more generous benefits in a much more complex bureaucracy.

much more complex bureaucracy. much more complex bureaucracy. >> Yeah, absolutely. It is not the sort of >> Yeah, absolutely. It is not the sort of >> Yeah, absolutely. It is not the sort of thing like California is a nightmare on thing like California is a nightmare on thing like California is a nightmare on a lot of this. They've gotten better on a lot of this. They've gotten better on a lot of this. They've gotten better on some fronts, but it's just it's not like some fronts, but it's just it's not like some fronts, but it's just it's not like a simple, you know, the more liberal. It a simple, you know, the more liberal. It a simple, you know, the more liberal. It doesn't map on like that at all. It doesn't map on like that at all. It doesn't map on like that at all. It really, really doesn't. But yes, if you really, really doesn't. But yes, if you really, really doesn't. But yes, if you could take these programs and federalize could take these programs and federalize could take these programs and federalize them and make it such that the agencies them and make it such that the agencies them and make it such that the agencies administering them were responsible for administering them were responsible for administering them were responsible for outcomes and saw themselves as a service outcomes and saw themselves as a service outcomes and saw themselves as a service delivery organization. Yes. It would be delivery organization. Yes. It would be delivery organization. Yes. It would be a lot better. It would be way better. a lot better. It would be way better. a lot better. It would be way better. >> Your first book was about universal >> Your first book was about universal >> Your first book was about universal basic income. basic income. basic income. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when I got to the end zone, >> And when I got to the end zone, >> And when I got to the end zone, >> I came to think these books were more >> I came to think these books were more >> I came to think these books were more connected than I had thought when you connected than I had thought when you connected than I had thought when you were writing. were writing. were writing. >> They're twins. [laughter] >> They're twins. [laughter] >> They're twins. [laughter] Like it it seemed to me that you were Like it it seemed to me that you were Like it it seemed to me that you were moving towards something that's more moving towards something that's more moving towards something that's more like the government should do fewer like the government should do fewer like the government should do fewer things but do them clearly and well, things but do them clearly and well, things but do them clearly and well, right? Like this seemed to me in the right? Like this seemed to me in the right? Like this seemed to me in the anti-poverty dimension like it was sort anti-poverty dimension like it was sort anti-poverty dimension like it was sort of an argument for a negative income of an argument for a negative income of an argument for a negative income tax, right? Not quite a UBI where it's tax, right? Not quite a UBI where it's tax, right? Not quite a UBI where it's like Bill Gates gets it, but you know, like Bill Gates gets it, but you know, like Bill Gates gets it, but you know, something where if you're below a level, something where if you're below a level, something where if you're below a level, you just get it. We don't test you. We you just get it. We don't test you. We you just get it. We don't test you. We don't put you through hoops. We just say don't put you through hoops. We just say don't put you through hoops. We just say there's a level in this country people there's a level in this country people there's a level in this country people do not need to fall beneath. M I mean do not need to fall beneath. M I mean do not need to fall beneath. M I mean the the sort of conservative argument the the sort of conservative argument the the sort of conservative argument over the years for something like UBI or over the years for something like UBI or over the years for something like UBI or negative income taxes which Richard negative income taxes which Richard negative income taxes which Richard Nixon pushed at one moment.

Nixon pushed at one moment. Nixon pushed at one moment. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> What I am proposing is that the federal >> What I am proposing is that the federal >> What I am proposing is that the federal government build a foundation under the government build a foundation under the government build a foundation under the income of every American family with income of every American family with income of every American family with dependent children that cannot care for dependent children that cannot care for dependent children that cannot care for itself and wherever in America that itself and wherever in America that itself and wherever in America that family may live. family may live. family may live. >> Excellent president up until >> Excellent president up until >> Excellent president up until >> the government should do fewer things >> the government should do fewer things >> the government should do fewer things would do it better. He had some would do it better. He had some would do it better. He had some problems. Cambodia I'm not a huge fan problems. Cambodia I'm not a huge fan problems. Cambodia I'm not a huge fan of. of. of. >> Yeah. No, no, no. I'm not I'm not here >> Yeah. No, no, no. I'm not I'm not here >> Yeah. No, no, no. I'm not I'm not here to [laughter] rehabilitate Richard to [laughter] rehabilitate Richard to [laughter] rehabilitate Richard Nixon. There's a lot of things to be Nixon. There's a lot of things to be Nixon. There's a lot of things to be concerned about there, concerned about there, concerned about there, >> but a fascinating figure. Um that that >> but a fascinating figure. Um that that >> but a fascinating figure. Um that that seems like the kind of thing you're seems like the kind of thing you're seems like the kind of thing you're envisioning here. envisioning here. envisioning here. >> Yeah. Look at the child tax credit, >> Yeah. Look at the child tax credit, >> Yeah. Look at the child tax credit, right? So the child tax credit, it right? So the child tax credit, it right? So the child tax credit, it exists. There's this brief moment during exists. There's this brief moment during exists. There's this brief moment during the pandemic where they give a really the pandemic where they give a really the pandemic where they give a really big CTC big CTC big CTC and it reaches and it reaches and it reaches 80% of target families. the IRS 80% of target families. the IRS 80% of target families. the IRS administers it instead of some welfare administers it instead of some welfare administers it instead of some welfare agency somewhere. What does it do? It agency somewhere. What does it do? It agency somewhere. What does it do? It cuts child poverty in half. And granted, cuts child poverty in half. And granted, cuts child poverty in half. And granted, that's mostly due to just the sheer that's mostly due to just the sheer that's mostly due to just the sheer amount, the giant money cannon, but the amount, the giant money cannon, but the amount, the giant money cannon, but the administrative simplicity, I think, is administrative simplicity, I think, is administrative simplicity, I think, is actually important there. Most people actually important there. Most people actually important there. Most people don't have to do anything. The money don't have to do anything. The money don't have to do anything. The money just shows up. And so, the problem, I just shows up. And so, the problem, I just shows up. And so, the problem, I think, with running so many programs think, with running so many programs think, with running so many programs through the tax code, where it really is through the tax code, where it really is through the tax code, where it really is much more efficient. And the IRS has much more efficient. And the IRS has much more efficient. And the IRS has become a crucial welfare benefits become a crucial welfare benefits become a crucial welfare benefits administrator, even though it doesn't administrator, even though it doesn't administrator, even though it doesn't like to think of itself that way, both like to think of itself that way, both like to think of itself that way, both the IRS and Congress, I guess, is that the IRS and Congress, I guess, is that the IRS and Congress, I guess, is that then people don't notice, you know, um then people don't notice, you know, um then people don't notice, you know, um there's amazing research by Suzanne

there's amazing research by Suzanne there's amazing research by Suzanne Matler of Cornell that shows that Matler of Cornell that shows that Matler of Cornell that shows that highincome people uh no matter how much highincome people uh no matter how much highincome people uh no matter how much they're getting in government benefits, they're getting in government benefits, they're getting in government benefits, they're always like, "Well, I don't use they're always like, "Well, I don't use they're always like, "Well, I don't use any government program." That's because any government program." That's because any government program." That's because it's like their accountant is figuring it's like their accountant is figuring it's like their accountant is figuring it out. I I think that they might just it out. I I think that they might just it out. I I think that they might just not conceive of it that way because we not conceive of it that way because we not conceive of it that way because we are not beating somebody over the head are not beating somebody over the head are not beating somebody over the head with like, hey, you got a home mortgage with like, hey, you got a home mortgage with like, hey, you got a home mortgage interest deduction, which you didn't interest deduction, which you didn't interest deduction, which you didn't have to pee in a cup for, whereas it's have to pee in a cup for, whereas it's have to pee in a cup for, whereas it's really obvious to people getting safety really obvious to people getting safety really obvious to people getting safety net benefits that they're getting them net benefits that they're getting them net benefits that they're getting them because they have to go to these offices because they have to go to these offices because they have to go to these offices and fill out all this paperwork and and fill out all this paperwork and and fill out all this paperwork and everything. So, I do think that there is everything. So, I do think that there is everything. So, I do think that there is this kind of downside to tax programs, this kind of downside to tax programs, this kind of downside to tax programs, which is that, you know, they become which is that, you know, they become which is that, you know, they become invisible, but look, they're way easier invisible, but look, they're way easier invisible, but look, they're way easier for the government to administer, way for the government to administer, way for the government to administer, way cheaper, and you're much more likely to cheaper, and you're much more likely to cheaper, and you're much more likely to get them to the people who you want to get them to the people who you want to get them to the people who you want to get them. get them. get them. >> You could also make some pretty simple >> You could also make some pretty simple >> You could also make some pretty simple design tweaks and make things happening design tweaks and make things happening design tweaks and make things happening through the tax code more visible. I through the tax code more visible. I through the tax code more visible. I mean, it could come as a large check. mean, it could come as a large check. mean, it could come as a large check. It's not that difficult.

It's not that difficult. It's not that difficult. >> Absolutely. I remember there's this >> Absolutely. I remember there's this >> Absolutely. I remember there's this whole story from the Biden era whole story from the Biden era whole story from the Biden era >> where Biden like he's like I'm not going >> where Biden like he's like I'm not going >> where Biden like he's like I'm not going to to to >> put my like big signature face on a >> put my like big signature face on a >> put my like big signature face on a check like Donald Trump. It's like you check like Donald Trump. It's like you check like Donald Trump. It's like you should have put your should have put your should have put your >> big signature giant face on the check >> big signature giant face on the check >> big signature giant face on the check >> check like Donald Trump. Yeah. >> check like Donald Trump. Yeah. >> check like Donald Trump. Yeah. >> So what do you say to conservatives >> So what do you say to conservatives >> So what do you say to conservatives because I've seen this um case pushed because I've seen this um case pushed because I've seen this um case pushed against your book. It's like look this against your book. It's like look this against your book. It's like look this is a great description of how government is a great description of how government is a great description of how government fails. It is a great description of fails. It is a great description of fails. It is a great description of government complexity. It is a great government complexity. It is a great government complexity. It is a great description of government incompetence, description of government incompetence, description of government incompetence, which you agree is at least part of the which you agree is at least part of the which you agree is at least part of the story here. story here. story here. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> So, ending in a stirring call for bigger >> So, ending in a stirring call for bigger >> So, ending in a stirring call for bigger government, more government government, more government government, more government >> is like fundamentally paradoxical. >> is like fundamentally paradoxical. >> is like fundamentally paradoxical. Government just do less and be more out Government just do less and be more out Government just do less and be more out of people's lives and not take and waste of people's lives and not take and waste of people's lives and not take and waste so much of their so much of their so much of their >> Do they want to take away social >> Do they want to take away social >> Do they want to take away social security? >> Some of them do. >> Some of them do. >> A lot of Oh gosh. A lot of big programs >> A lot of Oh gosh. A lot of big programs >> A lot of Oh gosh. A lot of big programs work great. They work really, really work great. They work really, really work great. They work really, really well. I think it's not a crazy thing for well. I think it's not a crazy thing for well. I think it's not a crazy thing for Americans demand that the government Americans demand that the government Americans demand that the government that they pay for works that they pay for works that they pay for works in the way that the governments around in the way that the governments around in the way that the governments around the world work. We have low standards.

the world work. We have low standards. the world work. We have low standards. We're letting these [ __ ] get away We're letting these [ __ ] get away We're letting these [ __ ] get away with murder. I mean it. You have a great with murder. I mean it. You have a great with murder. I mean it. You have a great line in the book where you say that line in the book where you say that line in the book where you say that politicians care a lot about whether or politicians care a lot about whether or politicians care a lot about whether or not a program exists but not really not a program exists but not really not a program exists but not really whether it's accessible. whether it's accessible. whether it's accessible. >> Totally. And it's also and again I think >> Totally. And it's also and again I think >> Totally. And it's also and again I think it's the civil servants often they it's the civil servants often they it's the civil servants often they really want these programs to work. They really want these programs to work. They really want these programs to work. They would love to use they are experts on would love to use they are experts on would love to use they are experts on these programs and we don't listen to these programs and we don't listen to these programs and we don't listen to them either. They aren't like people who them either. They aren't like people who them either. They aren't like people who are stakeholders. It's not like, you are stakeholders. It's not like, you are stakeholders. It's not like, you know, you have uh them coming forward know, you have uh them coming forward know, you have uh them coming forward and being like, I think that we could and being like, I think that we could and being like, I think that we could make these really good changes and that make these really good changes and that make these really good changes and that would result in, right? Like a lot of would result in, right? Like a lot of would result in, right? Like a lot of them want to do that and they're them want to do that and they're them want to do that and they're statutoily not allowed. You'd have to statutoily not allowed. You'd have to statutoily not allowed. You'd have to get a law passed. You'd have to get a get a law passed. You'd have to get a get a law passed. You'd have to get a regulation passed. Who are the White regulation passed. Who are the White regulation passed. Who are the White House going to listen to? House going to listen to? House going to listen to? >> You're not allowed to speak out. You'd >> You're not allowed to speak out. You'd >> You're not allowed to speak out. You'd get fired. get fired. get fired. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Can't go write an op-ed from the I mean, >> Can't go write an op-ed from the I mean, >> Can't go write an op-ed from the I mean, I know through you how many people you I know through you how many people you I know through you how many people you talk to in the bureaucracy who are just talk to in the bureaucracy who are just talk to in the bureaucracy who are just like hair on fire like funneling you like hair on fire like funneling you like hair on fire like funneling you information about how it doesn't work. information about how it doesn't work. information about how it doesn't work. >> Oh my gosh. But nobody wants to make >> Oh my gosh. But nobody wants to make >> Oh my gosh. But nobody wants to make government programs work better than the government programs work better than the government programs work better than the people who are held back from people who are held back from people who are held back from administering them correctly.

administering them correctly. administering them correctly. >> If you've devoted your life to getting >> If you've devoted your life to getting >> If you've devoted your life to getting people SNAP and now you are not able to people SNAP and now you are not able to people SNAP and now you are not able to get people SNAP, it drives you crazy. get people SNAP, it drives you crazy. get people SNAP, it drives you crazy. >> Absolutely. If we treated people as >> Absolutely. If we treated people as >> Absolutely. If we treated people as experts in their own experience, by experts in their own experience, by experts in their own experience, by which I mean people who are using these which I mean people who are using these which I mean people who are using these programs and the people administering programs and the people administering programs and the people administering them, I think things would work much them, I think things would work much them, I think things would work much better. Jen Pala I think has like the better. Jen Pala I think has like the better. Jen Pala I think has like the greatest, greatest, greatest, you know, exigist of this idea in you know, exigist of this idea in you know, exigist of this idea in recoding America. recoding America. recoding America. >> Recoding America. >> Recoding America. >> Recoding America. >> Yeah. Guest of the podcast, >> Yeah. Guest of the podcast, >> Yeah. Guest of the podcast, >> past guest for the show, >> past guest for the show, >> past guest for the show, >> right? Where she describes it as this >> right? Where she describes it as this >> right? Where she describes it as this like bureaucratic anxiety cycle. So what like bureaucratic anxiety cycle. So what like bureaucratic anxiety cycle. So what happens is, you know, Congress spends happens is, you know, Congress spends happens is, you know, Congress spends some money, they have some program, the some money, they have some program, the some money, they have some program, the program doesn't work well, and so they program doesn't work well, and so they program doesn't work well, and so they put more rules on the bureaucrats who put more rules on the bureaucrats who put more rules on the bureaucrats who become then less capable of actually become then less capable of actually become then less capable of actually administering the program. They get administering the program. They get administering the program. They get called in before Congress. And so you called in before Congress. And so you called in before Congress. And so you just end up in this kind of doom loop of just end up in this kind of doom loop of just end up in this kind of doom loop of like Congress telling them telling these like Congress telling them telling these like Congress telling them telling these bureaucrats, "Okay, well, here's in an bureaucrats, "Okay, well, here's in an bureaucrats, "Okay, well, here's in an even more specific way what I think you even more specific way what I think you even more specific way what I think you should be doing instead of saying to the should be doing instead of saying to the should be doing instead of saying to the bureaucrats, we trust you. Here's the bureaucrats, we trust you. Here's the bureaucrats, we trust you. Here's the goal. get it done.

goal. get it done. goal. get it done. >> We were talking earlier about our >> We were talking earlier about our >> We were talking earlier about our government bumper stickers and and I government bumper stickers and and I government bumper stickers and and I thought about this before. Mine is thought about this before. Mine is thought about this before. Mine is actually simpler, fair, faster. I feel actually simpler, fair, faster. I feel actually simpler, fair, faster. I feel like Democrats should run and they're like Democrats should run and they're like Democrats should run and they're going to say the government will be going to say the government will be going to say the government will be simpler, fairer, and faster. And they simpler, fairer, and faster. And they simpler, fairer, and faster. And they should actually make that happen. They should actually make that happen. They should actually make that happen. They should make the policies simple. should make the policies simple. should make the policies simple. >> They should make them way less corrupted >> They should make them way less corrupted >> They should make them way less corrupted by money. They should actually pass and by money. They should actually pass and by money. They should actually pass and try to pass in fact a constitutional try to pass in fact a constitutional try to pass in fact a constitutional amendment on money. Um, and they need to amendment on money. Um, and they need to amendment on money. Um, and they need to make them faster. Right? Abundance is a make them faster. Right? Abundance is a make them faster. Right? Abundance is a lot about speed. This book has a lot in lot about speed. This book has a lot in lot about speed. This book has a lot in the end about speed, too. the end about speed, too. the end about speed, too. >> And I think when people talk about >> And I think when people talk about >> And I think when people talk about making government efficient, it doesn't making government efficient, it doesn't making government efficient, it doesn't mean anything. mean anything. mean anything. >> And I don't think Democrats often know >> And I don't think Democrats often know >> And I don't think Democrats often know what they mean when they're talking what they mean when they're talking what they mean when they're talking about they tend to mean saving money about they tend to mean saving money about they tend to mean saving money when they talk about government when they talk about government when they talk about government efficiency. efficiency. efficiency. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you want the government to be >> But you want the government to be >> But you want the government to be efficient from the perspective of the efficient from the perspective of the efficient from the perspective of the person it benefits. And that means it's person it benefits. And that means it's person it benefits. And that means it's simple to use. simple to use. simple to use. >> It treats them fairly and respectfully. >> It treats them fairly and respectfully. >> It treats them fairly and respectfully. And they get what they need from it And they get what they need from it And they get what they need from it fast. So their time isn't taxed. fast. So their time isn't taxed. fast. So their time isn't taxed. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is a >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is a >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is a great way to do it. The thing that I great way to do it. The thing that I great way to do it. The thing that I think a lot about is the political think a lot about is the political think a lot about is the political economy here, right? If that was a way economy here, right? If that was a way economy here, right? If that was a way to win votes to win votes to win votes and if people wanted that, why doesn't and if people wanted that, why doesn't and if people wanted that, why doesn't it happen? Because the time tax, it's it happen? Because the time tax, it's it happen? Because the time tax, it's like a problem. It is a giant mess of a like a problem. It is a giant mess of a like a problem. It is a giant mess of a million different problems administered million different problems administered million different problems administered at different parts of government. And at different parts of government. And at different parts of government. And that is in fact part of the problem. And that is in fact part of the problem. And that is in fact part of the problem. And I think that the feedback loops are I think that the feedback loops are I think that the feedback loops are broken in a lot of cases here. So what I

broken in a lot of cases here. So what I broken in a lot of cases here. So what I mean by feedback loops is that the mean by feedback loops is that the mean by feedback loops is that the people who use the most punitive, stupid people who use the most punitive, stupid people who use the most punitive, stupid government programs, government programs, government programs, they get turned off from civic they get turned off from civic they get turned off from civic engagement. So they don't become a engagement. So they don't become a engagement. So they don't become a constituency demanding for the program constituency demanding for the program constituency demanding for the program to get better. But I think you can to get better. But I think you can to get better. But I think you can actually look at some politicians that actually look at some politicians that actually look at some politicians that have tackled this and it's pretty have tackled this and it's pretty have tackled this and it's pretty popular when you can actually do it. So, popular when you can actually do it. So, popular when you can actually do it. So, Zuran Mdani in New York has had this Zuran Mdani in New York has had this Zuran Mdani in New York has had this whole, you know, like if you're a small whole, you know, like if you're a small whole, you know, like if you're a small business, it shouldn't take you a business, it shouldn't take you a business, it shouldn't take you a million, you know, pieces of paper and million, you know, pieces of paper and million, you know, pieces of paper and all this time to just like get a very all this time to just like get a very all this time to just like get a very basic business license. That's great. basic business license. That's great. basic business license. That's great. And almost like kind of like Republican And almost like kind of like Republican And almost like kind of like Republican politics. And I think that, you know, politics. And I think that, you know, politics. And I think that, you know, could that politics work for people? I could that politics work for people? I could that politics work for people? I think so. I think it'll be very think so. I think it'll be very think so. I think it'll be very interesting to watch what people think interesting to watch what people think interesting to watch what people think of Medicaid after the work requirement of Medicaid after the work requirement of Medicaid after the work requirement comes in because I can guarantee you comes in because I can guarantee you comes in because I can guarantee you that the stories are going to be about that the stories are going to be about that the stories are going to be about people who can't get cancer treatment. people who can't get cancer treatment. people who can't get cancer treatment. Marginal cases who cannot prove that Marginal cases who cannot prove that Marginal cases who cannot prove that they are disabled because doctors don't they are disabled because doctors don't they are disabled because doctors don't know what condition they have and they know what condition they have and they know what condition they have and they don't have a doctor to diagnose them.

don't have a doctor to diagnose them. don't have a doctor to diagnose them. Isn't that part of the reason that they Isn't that part of the reason that they Isn't that part of the reason that they need health insurance? need health insurance? need health insurance? um this is going to kill people and so I um this is going to kill people and so I um this is going to kill people and so I don't think that it's going to be more don't think that it's going to be more don't think that it's going to be more popular for the Medicaid program. popular for the Medicaid program. popular for the Medicaid program. And so um there's this piece of And so um there's this piece of And so um there's this piece of political science research that actually political science research that actually political science research that actually showed that administrative burdens do showed that administrative burdens do showed that administrative burdens do not just make recipients less likely to not just make recipients less likely to not just make recipients less likely to engage civically. They kind of sour engage civically. They kind of sour engage civically. They kind of sour entire communities on the government entire communities on the government entire communities on the government because they're like, "Wait, why are you because they're like, "Wait, why are you because they're like, "Wait, why are you treating us like this?" And you know, I treating us like this?" And you know, I treating us like this?" And you know, I would want to see more research on this. would want to see more research on this. would want to see more research on this. I'm really interested. But it makes I'm really interested. But it makes I'm really interested. But it makes sense to me. Do people like a government sense to me. Do people like a government sense to me. Do people like a government that treats people this way? that treats people this way? that treats people this way? >> I've wondered whether or not the Trump >> I've wondered whether or not the Trump >> I've wondered whether or not the Trump uh Medicaid and SNAP work requirements uh Medicaid and SNAP work requirements uh Medicaid and SNAP work requirements are going to create an opening. I mean, are going to create an opening. I mean, are going to create an opening. I mean, when Republicans cut government sharply, when Republicans cut government sharply, when Republicans cut government sharply, >> they often create the conditions for a >> they often create the conditions for a >> they often create the conditions for a politics of expansion because people politics of expansion because people politics of expansion because people don't like the effect of the cuts. We've don't like the effect of the cuts. We've don't like the effect of the cuts. We've seen this happen many, many times seen this happen many, many times seen this happen many, many times before. before. before. >> People feel the cuts all of a sudden or >> People feel the cuts all of a sudden or >> People feel the cuts all of a sudden or they fear the cuts all of a sudden. They they fear the cuts all of a sudden. They they fear the cuts all of a sudden. They recognize what they are losing or might recognize what they are losing or might recognize what they are losing or might lose and it creates focus and it creates lose and it creates focus and it creates lose and it creates focus and it creates like the possibility to do something.

like the possibility to do something. like the possibility to do something. Now they've decided to do a massive cut Now they've decided to do a massive cut Now they've decided to do a massive cut that's going to hit many of their that's going to hit many of their that's going to hit many of their voters. Many Trump voters are on voters. Many Trump voters are on voters. Many Trump voters are on Medicaid or on SNAP. it's going to hit Medicaid or on SNAP. it's going to hit Medicaid or on SNAP. it's going to hit them in very unpleasant, complicated them in very unpleasant, complicated them in very unpleasant, complicated ways and I think give, you know, the ways and I think give, you know, the ways and I think give, you know, the opposition an opportunity to opposition an opportunity to opposition an opportunity to make this kind of burden an issue make this kind of burden an issue make this kind of burden an issue >> and not just sort of argue for, you >> and not just sort of argue for, you >> and not just sort of argue for, you know, expansion or restoration of know, expansion or restoration of know, expansion or restoration of funding, but actually say like this is funding, but actually say like this is funding, but actually say like this is not what your relationship with not what your relationship with not what your relationship with government should be. This is not what government should be. This is not what government should be. This is not what government should do to you. Make it government should do to you. Make it government should do to you. Make it easier for rich people to cheat on their easier for rich people to cheat on their easier for rich people to cheat on their taxes and harder for you to get taxes and harder for you to get taxes and harder for you to get >> totally >> totally >> totally >> medicaid. I think that that's absolutely >> medicaid. I think that that's absolutely >> medicaid. I think that that's absolutely true. I am very concerned that SNAP true. I am very concerned that SNAP true. I am very concerned that SNAP could collapse in some states because could collapse in some states because could collapse in some states because one of the things it does is it says to one of the things it does is it says to one of the things it does is it says to the states if you have an error rate the states if you have an error rate the states if you have an error rate that is above I think it's 6% which like that is above I think it's 6% which like that is above I think it's 6% which like 40 states have a again improper payments 40 states have a again improper payments 40 states have a again improper payments not fraud rate improper payments rate not fraud rate improper payments rate not fraud rate improper payments rate above that it uh makes them pay for part above that it uh makes them pay for part above that it uh makes them pay for part of the benefit which they've never had of the benefit which they've never had of the benefit which they've never had to do before. And I'm very concerned to do before. And I'm very concerned to do before. And I'm very concerned that states will not be able to do this that states will not be able to do this that states will not be able to do this and they will not have the money to and they will not have the money to and they will not have the money to cover it and they might just not have cover it and they might just not have cover it and they might just not have SNAP. I've talked to hospital SNAP. I've talked to hospital SNAP. I've talked to hospital administrators and state legislators who administrators and state legislators who administrators and state legislators who are like what are we going to do when are like what are we going to do when are like what are we going to do when Medicaid gets gutted? How are we going Medicaid gets gutted? How are we going Medicaid gets gutted? How are we going to keep hospitals open? They are going to keep hospitals open? They are going to keep hospitals open? They are going to destabilize whole health systems. I to destabilize whole health systems. I to destabilize whole health systems. I think that they might drive doctors and think that they might drive doctors and think that they might drive doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists out of nurses and respiratory therapists out of nurses and respiratory therapists out of the profession. They are creating a mass

the profession. They are creating a mass the profession. They are creating a mass administrative burden, a mass time tax administrative burden, a mass time tax administrative burden, a mass time tax the like of which we have never seen. 96 the like of which we have never seen. 96 the like of which we have never seen. 96 TANF reform like that was so tiny in TANF reform like that was so tiny in TANF reform like that was so tiny in comparison to this comparison to this comparison to this >> much smaller program >> much smaller program >> much smaller program >> almost 25 million people. They're >> almost 25 million people. They're >> almost 25 million people. They're sapping billions of hours of people's sapping billions of hours of people's sapping billions of hours of people's time to give money to rich people. Yes, time to give money to rich people. Yes, time to give money to rich people. Yes, I would hope that this would create an I would hope that this would create an I would hope that this would create an opening for actual route to STEM reform, opening for actual route to STEM reform, opening for actual route to STEM reform, but I think that you could develop a but I think that you could develop a but I think that you could develop a politics of this politics of this politics of this >> and for most Americans, you could never >> and for most Americans, you could never >> and for most Americans, you could never have to fill out a tax form or pay an have to fill out a tax form or pay an have to fill out a tax form or pay an accountant for that again. accountant for that again. accountant for that again. >> Can you imagine how nice that would be? >> Can you imagine how nice that would be? >> Can you imagine how nice that would be? It'd be really nice. It'd be really nice. It'd be really nice. >> I cannot I think that's a good place to >> I cannot I think that's a good place to >> I cannot I think that's a good place to end. Little little moment of imagining end. Little little moment of imagining end. Little little moment of imagining nice things. nice things. nice things. >> Uh always our final question. What are >> Uh always our final question. What are >> Uh always our final question. What are three books you would recommend to the three books you would recommend to the three books you would recommend to the audience? audience? audience? So So So while I was thinking of the books to while I was thinking of the books to while I was thinking of the books to recommend to the audience, you and I had recommend to the audience, you and I had recommend to the audience, you and I had created this list of books that we created this list of books that we created this list of books that we mentioned to each other constantly. mentioned to each other constantly. mentioned to each other constantly. So one is the book that has changed how So one is the book that has changed how So one is the book that has changed how I have read every memoir, every I have read every memoir, every I have read every memoir, every autobiography since. I'm not saying it's autobiography since. I'm not saying it's autobiography since. I'm not saying it's a good book. I'm saying it's a deranged a good book. I'm saying it's a deranged a good book. I'm saying it's a deranged object that I think everybody should object that I think everybody should object that I think everybody should read. And this is a book called My read. And this is a book called My read. And this is a book called My Silent War by Kim Philby. So Kim Philby Silent War by Kim Philby. So Kim Philby Silent War by Kim Philby. So Kim Philby is is is a spy, a spy, a spy, prominent British spy and uh he almost prominent British spy and uh he almost prominent British spy and uh he almost becomes the head of MI6. He's a Soviet becomes the head of MI6. He's a Soviet becomes the head of MI6. He's a Soviet agent. He's a Soviet agent and he agent. He's a Soviet agent and he agent. He's a Soviet agent and he eventually defects to the Soviet Union

eventually defects to the Soviet Union eventually defects to the Soviet Union and drinks himself to death in Moscow. and drinks himself to death in Moscow. and drinks himself to death in Moscow. And you know, I think that there was And you know, I think that there was And you know, I think that there was perhaps some expectation perhaps some expectation perhaps some expectation of like a warm reception there for all of like a warm reception there for all of like a warm reception there for all that he had done for the Soviet cause. that he had done for the Soviet cause. that he had done for the Soviet cause. But of course, the Soviets don't trust But of course, the Soviets don't trust But of course, the Soviets don't trust him. He's a liar, right? He just spent him. He's a liar, right? He just spent him. He's a liar, right? He just spent his whole life uh letting the people his whole life uh letting the people his whole life uh letting the people that he grew up with, the people that he that he grew up with, the people that he that he grew up with, the people that he worked right next to, right? Like worked right next to, right? Like worked right next to, right? Like sending them home in body bags to their sending them home in body bags to their sending them home in body bags to their widows. And uh so many books have been widows. And uh so many books have been widows. And uh so many books have been written about this guy. many like Ben written about this guy. many like Ben written about this guy. many like Ben McIntyre's books kind of come up in McIntyre's books kind of come up in McIntyre's books kind of come up in this. He is like a kind of a figure in this. He is like a kind of a figure in this. He is like a kind of a figure in some of the novels of Graham Green some of the novels of Graham Green some of the novels of Graham Green because they actually knew each other because they actually knew each other because they actually knew each other because Graham Green was a spy. John because Graham Green was a spy. John because Graham Green was a spy. John Laree I don't know what is in John Laree I don't know what is in John Laree I don't know what is in John Laree's heart but I think that he hates Laree's heart but I think that he hates Laree's heart but I think that he hates this guy more than he has ever hated this guy more than he has ever hated this guy more than he has ever hated anybody else. And uh but he writes this anybody else. And uh but he writes this anybody else. And uh but he writes this this book that is I kept on like waiting this book that is I kept on like waiting this book that is I kept on like waiting for them to be right. Is he is he for them to be right. Is he is he for them to be right. Is he is he actually like a communist or a actually like a communist or a actually like a communist or a socialist? Like what is the and there's socialist? Like what is the and there's socialist? Like what is the and there's nothing there. What a wasted life. What nothing there. What a wasted life. What nothing there. What a wasted life. What a miserable human being. And um I'm not a miserable human being. And um I'm not a miserable human being. And um I'm not saying that all memoirs should be read saying that all memoirs should be read saying that all memoirs should be read with the same [laughter] with the same [laughter] with the same [laughter] skepticism.

skepticism. skepticism. But um so that's one of my books which I But um so that's one of my books which I But um so that's one of my books which I think may many of your readers would think may many of your readers would think may many of your readers would like. The second is a book that like. The second is a book that like. The second is a book that [laughter] I consider [laughter] I consider [laughter] I consider >> you Annie really mentions this book a >> you Annie really mentions this book a >> you Annie really mentions this book a lot. She's not lying about this. Kim lot. She's not lying about this. Kim lot. She's not lying about this. Kim Philby comes up constantly. Philby comes up constantly. Philby comes up constantly. >> World historical piece of [ __ ] What a >> World historical piece of [ __ ] What a >> World historical piece of [ __ ] What a world historical piece of [ __ ] Kim world historical piece of [ __ ] Kim world historical piece of [ __ ] Kim Philby is. [laughter] The second is a Philby is. [laughter] The second is a Philby is. [laughter] The second is a book that I consider most insightful book that I consider most insightful book that I consider most insightful about politics and political thinking about politics and political thinking about politics and political thinking and it is neither of us are sports and it is neither of us are sports and it is neither of us are sports watchers but uh it is a book about watchers but uh it is a book about watchers but uh it is a book about sports. It is about UNCC and Duke. It is sports. It is about UNCC and Duke. It is sports. It is about UNCC and Duke. It is called to hate like this is to be happy called to hate like this is to be happy called to hate like this is to be happy forever by Will Bllythe. I bring this up forever by Will Bllythe. I bring this up forever by Will Bllythe. I bring this up constantly and it is about um you know constantly and it is about um you know constantly and it is about um you know this famous football JK rivalry this famous football JK rivalry this famous football JK rivalry sorry sorry sorry >> it's basketball [gasps] >> it's basketball [gasps] >> it's basketball [gasps] >> it's about the offsides rule and yes >> it's about the offsides rule and yes >> it's about the offsides rule and yes it's about basketball sorry um by Will it's about basketball sorry um by Will it's about basketball sorry um by Will Bllythe it's really really beautifully Bllythe it's really really beautifully Bllythe it's really really beautifully written but this book is about right written but this book is about right written but this book is about right like how habits how acting this rivalry like how habits how acting this rivalry like how habits how acting this rivalry out like inculcates It's the rivalous out like inculcates It's the rivalous out like inculcates It's the rivalous mindset that's all occurring within mindset that's all occurring within mindset that's all occurring within people who live within like 12 miles of people who live within like 12 miles of people who live within like 12 miles of each other is kind of one of the fun each other is kind of one of the fun each other is kind of one of the fun parts about it. And then my third hobby parts about it. And then my third hobby parts about it. And then my third hobby horse book, which I think people talk horse book, which I think people talk horse book, which I think people talk about this book all the time, but I feel about this book all the time, but I feel about this book all the time, but I feel like a lot of people have never actually like a lot of people have never actually like a lot of people have never actually read it, is Gender Trouble by Judith read it, is Gender Trouble by Judith read it, is Gender Trouble by Judith Butler. It will blow your hair back.

Butler. It will blow your hair back. Butler. It will blow your hair back. The reason that we [laughter] The reason that we [laughter] The reason that we [laughter] don't laugh, I'm a huge listener of don't laugh, I'm a huge listener of don't laugh, I'm a huge listener of Manosphere podcasts along with yours. Manosphere podcasts along with yours. Manosphere podcasts along with yours. I'm a really big listener of Joe Rogan I'm a really big listener of Joe Rogan I'm a really big listener of Joe Rogan and the reason I bring it up all the and the reason I bring it up all the and the reason I bring it up all the time is I'm like, has Joe read Gender time is I'm like, has Joe read Gender time is I'm like, has Joe read Gender Trouble? Because wow, I mean, he's camp. Trouble? Because wow, I mean, he's camp. Trouble? Because wow, I mean, he's camp. This is not like an original point of This is not like an original point of This is not like an original point of mine, but he has such a fascinating mine, but he has such a fascinating mine, but he has such a fascinating conception of masculinity and it's conception of masculinity and it's conception of masculinity and it's enacted in such a wonderfully camp way. enacted in such a wonderfully camp way. enacted in such a wonderfully camp way. And And And >> this is such a take. [laughter] >> this is such a take. [laughter] >> this is such a take. [laughter] >> This is obvious. I'm not saying it's >> This is obvious. I'm not saying it's >> This is obvious. I'm not saying it's wrong. wrong. wrong. This is like table stakes. This is like table stakes. This is like table stakes. Have me on, Joe Rogan. I'd love to talk Have me on, Joe Rogan. I'd love to talk Have me on, Joe Rogan. I'd love to talk [laughter] about paperwork with you. [laughter] about paperwork with you. [laughter] about paperwork with you. >> Paperwork in your performance of gender. >> Paperwork in your performance of gender. >> Paperwork in your performance of gender. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I would watch that episode of >> I would watch that episode of >> I would watch that episode of >> I think it's beautiful. I really, really >> I think it's beautiful. I really, really >> I think it's beautiful. I really, really do. I think it's really really do. I think it's really really do. I think it's really really interesting. And one of the things that interesting. And one of the things that interesting. And one of the things that I think is kind of interesting is I think is kind of interesting is I think is kind of interesting is there's this idea of just like manly men there's this idea of just like manly men there's this idea of just like manly men with the testosterone.

with the testosterone. with the testosterone. And one of the points made in this book And one of the points made in this book And one of the points made in this book is right like you learn what gender is is right like you learn what gender is is right like you learn what gender is by enacting gender by enacting gender by enacting gender and by this iterative process of and by this iterative process of and by this iterative process of emulation of putting on the muscle tea. emulation of putting on the muscle tea. emulation of putting on the muscle tea. And And And >> these books are kind of all the same >> these books are kind of all the same >> these books are kind of all the same book. book. book. >> These are all the same book. Yeah. >> These are all the same book. Yeah. >> These are all the same book. Yeah. >> These are all the same. This is why I >> These are all the same. This is why I >> These are all the same. This is why I brought them together that I'm like if brought them together that I'm like if brought them together that I'm like if you want to understand psychology don't you want to understand psychology don't you want to understand psychology don't read well I don't know how. read well I don't know how. read well I don't know how. >> Don't think your way into actions. You >> Don't think your way into actions. You >> Don't think your way into actions. You act your way into thoughts. act your way into thoughts. act your way into thoughts. >> Exactly. These are all the same book in >> Exactly. These are all the same book in >> Exactly. These are all the same book in very different ways. In very, very very different ways. In very, very very different ways. In very, very different ways. different ways. different ways. >> Annie Larry, thank you very much. >> Annie Larry, thank you very much. >> Annie Larry, thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. [music]