Loving America Honestly | The Ezra Klein Show

So, it's the 250th birthday of America So, it's the 250th birthday of America and Donald Trump is president. And I and Donald Trump is president. And I and Donald Trump is president. And I think the celebration you're going to think the celebration you're going to think the celebration you're going to get from the Trump administration is get from the Trump administration is get from the Trump administration is going to be of a very specific kind. going to be of a very specific kind. going to be of a very specific kind. >> Get ready, America, because we're >> Get ready, America, because we're >> Get ready, America, because we're putting our love of country on full putting our love of country on full putting our love of country on full display. display. display. >> A celebration of American glory, >> A celebration of American glory, >> A celebration of American glory, American greatness. American greatness. American greatness. >> Welcome to UFC Freedom 250. That's a >> Welcome to UFC Freedom 250. That's a >> Welcome to UFC Freedom 250. That's a huge right hand is covering up big huge right hand is covering up big huge right hand is covering up big >> uncritical I think will be underelling >> uncritical I think will be underelling >> uncritical I think will be underelling it. it. it. There has been I think a a a split a There has been I think a a a split a There has been I think a a a split a severing of two visions of American severing of two visions of American severing of two visions of American history. history. history. There's a vision that can only see glory There's a vision that can only see glory There's a vision that can only see glory and a vision that I think can only see and a vision that I think can only see and a vision that I think can only see suffering and sin. suffering and sin. suffering and sin. One of my beliefs about politics is that One of my beliefs about politics is that One of my beliefs about politics is that until we can reintegrate until we can reintegrate until we can reintegrate a story, until we have leaders again a story, until we have leaders again a story, until we have leaders again able to tell a more holistic story of able to tell a more holistic story of able to tell a more holistic story of the country, it's able to hold its the country, it's able to hold its the country, it's able to hold its triumphs and its tragedies together, triumphs and its tragedies together, triumphs and its tragedies together, it's going to be very, very hard to move it's going to be very, very hard to move it's going to be very, very hard to move forward. forward. forward. I'm in Montgomery, Alabama. I think of I'm in Montgomery, Alabama. I think of I'm in Montgomery, Alabama. I think of Montgomery in some ways as the Montgomery in some ways as the Montgomery in some ways as the birthplace of American democracy. Not birthplace of American democracy. Not birthplace of American democracy. Not where it was conceived, right? That's where it was conceived, right? That's where it was conceived, right? That's the founding. But where the actual thing the founding. But where the actual thing the founding. But where the actual thing promised at [music] the founding began promised at [music] the founding began promised at [music] the founding began to really be born.

to really be born. to really be born. >> THE PEOPLE OF MONTGOMERY WALKED to >> THE PEOPLE OF MONTGOMERY WALKED to >> THE PEOPLE OF MONTGOMERY WALKED to maintain their human dignity and their maintain their human dignity and their maintain their human dignity and their rights. rights. rights. >> This is where the Montgomery bus boycott >> This is where the Montgomery bus boycott >> This is where the Montgomery bus boycott began. began. began. >> LET US ALL WALK TOGETHER FOR FREEDOM, >> LET US ALL WALK TOGETHER FOR FREEDOM, >> LET US ALL WALK TOGETHER FOR FREEDOM, FOR LIBERTY, AND EQUALITY. FOR LIBERTY, AND EQUALITY. FOR LIBERTY, AND EQUALITY. >> Which led to the civil rights movement. >> Which led to the civil rights movement. >> Which led to the civil rights movement. I have a dream that one day I have a dream that one day I have a dream that one day >> this nation will rise up and live out >> this nation will rise up and live out >> this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. the true meaning of its creed. the true meaning of its creed. >> Which led to the triumphs and the laws >> Which led to the triumphs and the laws >> Which led to the triumphs and the laws that for the first time made America that for the first time made America that for the first time made America some version of the democracy [music] some version of the democracy [music] some version of the democracy [music] and the country that it initially and the country that it initially and the country that it initially promised to be. promised to be. promised to be. >> We hold these truths to be self-evident >> We hold these truths to be self-evident >> We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men [singing] are created that all men [singing] are created that all men [singing] are created [music] equal. [music] equal. [music] equal. There's a series of really remarkable There's a series of really remarkable There's a series of really remarkable museums and sites here, the Legacy museums and sites here, the Legacy museums and sites here, the Legacy Museum, the Freedom Monument Sculpture Museum, the Freedom Monument Sculpture Museum, the Freedom Monument Sculpture Park that have been created by the Equal Park that have been created by the Equal Park that have been created by the Equal Justice Initiative as ways of of Justice Initiative as ways of of Justice Initiative as ways of of apprehending that history, [music] apprehending that history, [music] apprehending that history, [music] holding holding holding horror and beauty, tragedy and triumph, horror and beauty, tragedy and triumph, horror and beauty, tragedy and triumph, inhumity and humanity [music] together.

inhumity and humanity [music] together. inhumity and humanity [music] together. I think sometimes of wisdom as the I think sometimes of wisdom as the I think sometimes of wisdom as the ability to hold the totality of life. ability to hold the totality of life. ability to hold the totality of life. The wiser you are, the more of life you The wiser you are, the more of life you The wiser you are, the more of life you can hold. And I think this holds quite a can hold. And I think this holds quite a can hold. And I think this holds quite a bit in it. Brian Stevenson is the bit in it. Brian Stevenson is the bit in it. Brian Stevenson is the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative. founder of the Equal Justice Initiative. founder of the Equal Justice Initiative. He has done amazing work over the years, He has done amazing work over the years, He has done amazing work over the years, continues to do amazing work defending continues to do amazing work defending continues to do amazing work defending people on death row. He is the author of people on death row. He is the author of people on death row. He is the author of the book Just Mercy, which was turned the book Just Mercy, which was turned the book Just Mercy, which was turned into a movie where he was played by into a movie where he was played by into a movie where he was played by Michael B. Jordan. How many of us can Michael B. Jordan. How many of us can Michael B. Jordan. How many of us can say that? say that? say that? >> That's not justice. That's not right. >> That's not justice. That's not right. >> That's not justice. That's not right. But over time, you began to expand that But over time, you began to expand that But over time, you began to expand that work into questions of remembrance, work into questions of remembrance, work into questions of remembrance, questions of our history and how we questions of our history and how we questions of our history and how we think about it and and whose humanity we think about it and and whose humanity we think about it and and whose humanity we are able to see inside of it. Talking to are able to see inside of it. Talking to are able to see inside of it. Talking to Stevenson, I was interested in how do Stevenson, I was interested in how do Stevenson, I was interested in how do you create a history of this country you create a history of this country you create a history of this country that loves it in its totality? How do that loves it in its totality? How do that loves it in its totality? How do you work with America's past and its you work with America's past and its you work with America's past and its present in a way that doesn't [music] present in a way that doesn't [music] present in a way that doesn't [music] trap you in pain, but doesn't force you trap you in pain, but doesn't force you trap you in pain, but doesn't force you to inhabit only an imagined glory? How to inhabit only an imagined glory? How to inhabit only an imagined glory? How do you have a story that pushes a do you have a story that pushes a do you have a story that pushes a country forward that enhances rather country forward that enhances rather country forward that enhances rather than reduces the bonds of brotherhood than reduces the bonds of brotherhood than reduces the bonds of brotherhood and solidarity between the people within and solidarity between the people within and solidarity between the people within it? As always, my email escline shown it? As always, my email escline shown it? As always, my email escline shown times.com.

times.com. times.com. [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Ryan Stevenson, welcome to the show. >> Ryan Stevenson, welcome to the show. >> Ryan Stevenson, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. So, we're speaking here not >> Thank you. So, we're speaking here not >> Thank you. So, we're speaking here not long before the 250th anniversary of long before the 250th anniversary of long before the 250th anniversary of America. America. America. What's your relationship to that day? What's your relationship to that day? What's your relationship to that day? >> You know, I think anniversaries are >> You know, I think anniversaries are >> You know, I think anniversaries are always a time for reflection, uh, to always a time for reflection, uh, to always a time for reflection, uh, to think about who we are, where we've think about who we are, where we've think about who we are, where we've been, but for me, more importantly, been, but for me, more importantly, been, but for me, more importantly, where are we going? You know, I I think where are we going? You know, I I think where are we going? You know, I I think about this moment in terms of what will about this moment in terms of what will about this moment in terms of what will be people be talking about on our 300th be people be talking about on our 300th be people be talking about on our 300th anniversary, anniversary, anniversary, >> the cage match. [laughter] >> the cage match. [laughter] >> the cage match. [laughter] >> I hope that we will be past spectacle >> I hope that we will be past spectacle >> I hope that we will be past spectacle violence as a way to commemorate our violence as a way to commemorate our violence as a way to commemorate our nation. I don't think that violence, nation. I don't think that violence, nation. I don't think that violence, which is a part of every nation's which is a part of every nation's which is a part of every nation's history, but it's not the best part. history, but it's not the best part. history, but it's not the best part. It's not the glorious part. It's not the It's not the glorious part. It's not the It's not the glorious part. It's not the battles won. It's the ideas that battles won. It's the ideas that battles won. It's the ideas that motivated people to stand up for things motivated people to stand up for things motivated people to stand up for things that they believe in that I think are that they believe in that I think are that they believe in that I think are most important. So I see this as a most important. So I see this as a most important. So I see this as a moment for reflection to acknowledge moment for reflection to acknowledge moment for reflection to acknowledge things that are extraordinary and things that are extraordinary and things that are extraordinary and wonderful, but to also acknowledge wonderful, but to also acknowledge wonderful, but to also acknowledge things that are difficult and painful things that are difficult and painful things that are difficult and painful that continue to harm and haunt us.

that continue to harm and haunt us. that continue to harm and haunt us. We're sitting here in a museum. We are We're sitting here in a museum. We are We're sitting here in a museum. We are are sitting in a place built to are sitting in a place built to are sitting in a place built to commemorate, commemorate, commemorate, to take seriously, to stare to take seriously, to stare to take seriously, to stare unflinchingly at unflinchingly at unflinchingly at some of the most brutal, some of the most brutal, some of the most brutal, violent, horrible moments in American violent, horrible moments in American violent, horrible moments in American history. And not just the moments, but history. And not just the moments, but history. And not just the moments, but the people that this violence was the people that this violence was the people that this violence was inflicted upon. inflicted upon. inflicted upon. >> And we're going to talk about different >> And we're going to talk about different >> And we're going to talk about different pieces of the museum that moved me and pieces of the museum that moved me and pieces of the museum that moved me and and what they mean. But one question I and what they mean. But one question I and what they mean. But one question I have is is for you spending so much time have is is for you spending so much time have is is for you spending so much time in those eras, thinking so much about in those eras, thinking so much about in those eras, thinking so much about how to represent them, thinking so much how to represent them, thinking so much how to represent them, thinking so much about how to make people feel something about how to make people feel something about how to make people feel something they may not want to feel. they may not want to feel. they may not want to feel. >> What that has done to your relationship >> What that has done to your relationship >> What that has done to your relationship with maybe America itself or the idea of with maybe America itself or the idea of with maybe America itself or the idea of America, the story of America. I moved America, the story of America. I moved America, the story of America. I moved to Montgomery in the 1980s. We had 59 to Montgomery in the 1980s. We had 59 to Montgomery in the 1980s. We had 59 markers and monuments to the markers and monuments to the markers and monuments to the Confederacy. Confederacy. Confederacy. Uh the three largest high schools here Uh the three largest high schools here Uh the three largest high schools here were Robert E. Lehi, Jefferson Davis were Robert E. Lehi, Jefferson Davis were Robert E. Lehi, Jefferson Davis High, Sydney Laneir High, where the High, Sydney Laneir High, where the High, Sydney Laneir High, where the population had to walk around in a space population had to walk around in a space population had to walk around in a space that shouted the history of the that shouted the history of the that shouted the history of the Confederacy and would not even whisper Confederacy and would not even whisper Confederacy and would not even whisper the history of slavery. You could not the history of slavery. You could not the history of slavery. You could not find the word slave, slavery, or find the word slave, slavery, or find the word slave, slavery, or enslavement anywhere in the city enslavement anywhere in the city enslavement anywhere in the city landscape. And I think that does landscape. And I think that does landscape. And I think that does something unhealthy for everybody. And something unhealthy for everybody. And something unhealthy for everybody. And so I I just saw it as a way of creating so I I just saw it as a way of creating so I I just saw it as a way of creating a space for us to understand our history a space for us to understand our history a space for us to understand our history more honestly, more completely. I think

more honestly, more completely. I think more honestly, more completely. I think it is a narrative journey it is a narrative journey it is a narrative journey that you have to undertake and there that you have to undertake and there that you have to undertake and there will be pain along the way but it's a will be pain along the way but it's a will be pain along the way but it's a very familiar way of helping the world very familiar way of helping the world very familiar way of helping the world reckon with uh human rights violations. reckon with uh human rights violations. reckon with uh human rights violations. I mean we have nearly 200 Holocaust I mean we have nearly 200 Holocaust I mean we have nearly 200 Holocaust museums across the world. We have over museums across the world. We have over museums across the world. We have over 40 in the United States. I think we need 40 in the United States. I think we need 40 in the United States. I think we need all of them. When you go to the all of them. When you go to the all of them. When you go to the Holocaust Museum, at least when I do, I Holocaust Museum, at least when I do, I Holocaust Museum, at least when I do, I get to the end of it and I am motivated get to the end of it and I am motivated get to the end of it and I am motivated to say never again. Not Jewish, not to say never again. Not Jewish, not to say never again. Not Jewish, not connected to that history, but I am connected to that history, but I am connected to that history, but I am motivated by the suffering and the motivated by the suffering and the motivated by the suffering and the brutality that I have learned about to brutality that I have learned about to brutality that I have learned about to say never again. say never again. say never again. And for me, this country has never And for me, this country has never And for me, this country has never created a relationship to our history of created a relationship to our history of created a relationship to our history of racial violence, of enslavement, of uh racial violence, of enslavement, of uh racial violence, of enslavement, of uh lynching, of abuse of other people who lynching, of abuse of other people who lynching, of abuse of other people who are disfavored. We've never created a are disfavored. We've never created a are disfavored. We've never created a relationship to that history that has relationship to that history that has relationship to that history that has motivated us to say never again. And motivated us to say never again. And motivated us to say never again. And because we've never made that commitment because we've never made that commitment because we've never made that commitment of never again, we keep of never again, we keep of never again, we keep being romanced by new manifestations being romanced by new manifestations being romanced by new manifestations that pull us into the very patterns and that pull us into the very patterns and that pull us into the very patterns and behaviors that allow that kind of behaviors that allow that kind of behaviors that allow that kind of violence to be replicated. There's also violence to be replicated. There's also violence to be replicated. There's also conflict in bringing up this history.

conflict in bringing up this history. conflict in bringing up this history. Donald Trump is president and there has Donald Trump is president and there has Donald Trump is president and there has been an ongoing been an ongoing been an ongoing fury from him, from his White House and fury from him, from his White House and fury from him, from his White House and people around him going back to his people around him going back to his people around him going back to his first term about around their sense that first term about around their sense that first term about around their sense that the people like you trying to create a the people like you trying to create a the people like you trying to create a relationship to our racial history, relationship to our racial history, relationship to our racial history, trying to create a reckoning with it are trying to create a reckoning with it are trying to create a reckoning with it are trying to take the story of America and trying to take the story of America and trying to take the story of America and poison it poison it poison it >> by viewing every issue through the lens >> by viewing every issue through the lens >> by viewing every issue through the lens of race. They want to impose a new of race. They want to impose a new of race. They want to impose a new segregation segregation segregation and we must not allow that to happen. and we must not allow that to happen. and we must not allow that to happen. critical race theory, critical race theory, critical race theory, the 1619 project, and the crusade the 1619 project, and the crusade the 1619 project, and the crusade against American history is toxic against American history is toxic against American history is toxic propaganda, propaganda, propaganda, ideological poison that if not removed ideological poison that if not removed ideological poison that if not removed will dissolve the civic bonds that tie will dissolve the civic bonds that tie will dissolve the civic bonds that tie us together, us together, us together, will destroy our country. will destroy our country. will destroy our country. >> In answer to the New York Times 1619 >> In answer to the New York Times 1619 >> In answer to the New York Times 1619 project, they create the 1776 project.

project, they create the 1776 project. project, they create the 1776 project. One of both the sources of their One of both the sources of their One of both the sources of their political strength and the the engines political strength and the the engines political strength and the the engines of their political argument is that of their political argument is that of their political argument is that there is an organized faction trying to there is an organized faction trying to there is an organized faction trying to corrupt the story of America, trying to corrupt the story of America, trying to corrupt the story of America, trying to force us into a space of endless force us into a space of endless force us into a space of endless repentance repentance repentance and acidify the bonds of solidarity and acidify the bonds of solidarity and acidify the bonds of solidarity between us and that we are a nation. between us and that we are a nation. between us and that we are a nation. Nations need stories everybody believes Nations need stories everybody believes Nations need stories everybody believes in and that one thing that they are in and that one thing that they are in and that one thing that they are offering the country is an ability to be offering the country is an ability to be offering the country is an ability to be proud of America. proud of America. proud of America. >> Yeah. again. What do you think of that? >> Yeah. again. What do you think of that? >> Yeah. again. What do you think of that? >> I I think there's so many areas of our >> I I think there's so many areas of our >> I I think there's so many areas of our lives, particularly in this country, lives, particularly in this country, lives, particularly in this country, that are inspiring and energizing and that are inspiring and energizing and that are inspiring and energizing and create joy and create meaning and create joy and create meaning and create joy and create meaning and purpose. There are lots of opportunities purpose. There are lots of opportunities purpose. There are lots of opportunities to feel proud and excited about what we to feel proud and excited about what we to feel proud and excited about what we have done. I mean, we cheer for our have done. I mean, we cheer for our have done. I mean, we cheer for our Olympic teams. We cheer for achievement. Olympic teams. We cheer for achievement. Olympic teams. We cheer for achievement. We cheer for success. the technology We cheer for success. the technology We cheer for success. the technology that has changed the world is something that has changed the world is something that has changed the world is something that we all embrace and celebrate. Uh that we all embrace and celebrate. Uh that we all embrace and celebrate. Uh communication, communication, communication, but that doesn't mean that's the only but that doesn't mean that's the only but that doesn't mean that's the only thing you should think about. It's the thing you should think about. It's the thing you should think about. It's the only thing you should talk about. And I only thing you should talk about. And I only thing you should talk about. And I just think public health, human health just think public health, human health just think public health, human health is a really great way to think about is a really great way to think about is a really great way to think about this. It's like saying we don't want this. It's like saying we don't want this. It's like saying we don't want physicians to tell people that they have physicians to tell people that they have physicians to tell people that they have high blood pressure or diabetes because high blood pressure or diabetes because high blood pressure or diabetes because that's depressing. That's demoralizing.

that's depressing. That's demoralizing. that's depressing. That's demoralizing. that's going to make people feel bad that's going to make people feel bad that's going to make people feel bad when they walk out. And we could ban when they walk out. And we could ban when they walk out. And we could ban physicians from ever giving that physicians from ever giving that physicians from ever giving that diagnosis. But the people who have high diagnosis. But the people who have high diagnosis. But the people who have high blood pressure, the people who have blood pressure, the people who have blood pressure, the people who have diabetes are going to get sick. They're diabetes are going to get sick. They're diabetes are going to get sick. They're not going to be healthy and eventually not going to be healthy and eventually not going to be healthy and eventually it will kill them in ways that they it will kill them in ways that they it will kill them in ways that they don't have to die. You know, our don't have to die. You know, our don't have to die. You know, our military leaders, if you talk to military leaders, if you talk to military leaders, if you talk to military leaders in military colleges, military leaders in military colleges, military leaders in military colleges, all of thesemies, all of thesemies, all of thesemies, what they study are the mistakes we have what they study are the mistakes we have what they study are the mistakes we have made during our past. It's the made during our past. It's the made during our past. It's the misjudgments during war. It's the misjudgments during war. It's the misjudgments during war. It's the miscalculations that created outcomes miscalculations that created outcomes miscalculations that created outcomes that we didn't want. That's what you that we didn't want. That's what you that we didn't want. That's what you study so that you don't replicate those study so that you don't replicate those study so that you don't replicate those mistakes in the future. You do the same mistakes in the future. You do the same mistakes in the future. You do the same thing in science. You do the same thing thing in science. You do the same thing thing in science. You do the same thing in business. That's how we have in business. That's how we have in business. That's how we have succeeded. That's how we have achieved succeeded. That's how we have achieved succeeded. That's how we have achieved in this country. I don't share the view in this country. I don't share the view in this country. I don't share the view that we are doomed. I don't share the that we are doomed. I don't share the that we are doomed. I don't share the view that we are corrupted uh without view that we are corrupted uh without view that we are corrupted uh without any opportunity for repair. I genuinely any opportunity for repair. I genuinely any opportunity for repair. I genuinely believe that there is something that believe that there is something that believe that there is something that feels more like freedom, more like feels more like freedom, more like feels more like freedom, more like equality, more like liberty and more equality, more like liberty and more equality, more like liberty and more like justice waiting for us in the like justice waiting for us in the like justice waiting for us in the United States. I think it's just United States. I think it's just United States. I think it's just waiting. But we will not get there if we waiting. But we will not get there if we waiting. But we will not get there if we don't find the courage to unbburden don't find the courage to unbburden don't find the courage to unbburden ourselves from the parts of our history ourselves from the parts of our history ourselves from the parts of our history that hold us back. And I genuinely that hold us back. And I genuinely that hold us back. And I genuinely believe that. And I I see lots of believe that. And I I see lots of believe that. And I I see lots of examples of it all the time. You know, examples of it all the time. You know, examples of it all the time. You know, we're here in Alabama. In Alabama, we're here in Alabama. In Alabama, we're here in Alabama. In Alabama, college football is like religion. It

college football is like religion. It college football is like religion. It really is. If you moved here, people really is. If you moved here, people really is. If you moved here, people would start asking you almost would start asking you almost would start asking you almost immediately, Auburn or Alabama? There immediately, Auburn or Alabama? There immediately, Auburn or Alabama? There was this intensity around college was this intensity around college was this intensity around college football that I didn't quite understand. football that I didn't quite understand. football that I didn't quite understand. And I first well I thought oh they don't And I first well I thought oh they don't And I first well I thought oh they don't have a professional sports team that's have a professional sports team that's have a professional sports team that's what it is. No it's more than that. what it is. No it's more than that. what it is. No it's more than that. There's an identity that has evolved in There's an identity that has evolved in There's an identity that has evolved in this state that is connected to the this state that is connected to the this state that is connected to the success of these athletic programs. And success of these athletic programs. And success of these athletic programs. And the question becomes why? And when you the question becomes why? And when you the question becomes why? And when you think about it here in Alabama it's one think about it here in Alabama it's one think about it here in Alabama it's one of the things that we can be of the things that we can be of the things that we can be legitimately proud of that we have won legitimately proud of that we have won legitimately proud of that we have won national championships against national championships against national championships against everybody. The Californians, the New everybody. The Californians, the New everybody. The Californians, the New Yorkers, the Midwest. We beat them on Yorkers, the Midwest. We beat them on Yorkers, the Midwest. We beat them on these playing fields and it generates these playing fields and it generates these playing fields and it generates pride. [sighs and gasps] pride. [sighs and gasps] pride. [sighs and gasps] And I just want to step back a few And I just want to step back a few And I just want to step back a few decades and remind people that George decades and remind people that George decades and remind people that George Wallace stood in front of the University Wallace stood in front of the University Wallace stood in front of the University of Alabama schoolhouse door and said, of Alabama schoolhouse door and said, of Alabama schoolhouse door and said, "Segregation forever. Black people will "Segregation forever. Black people will "Segregation forever. Black people will never walk through these gates." And never walk through these gates." And never walk through these gates." And most of the people in the state most of the people in the state most of the people in the state supported him. But then courageous black supported him. But then courageous black supported him. But then courageous black athletes and courageous white parents athletes and courageous white parents athletes and courageous white parents sent their kids to that school as sent their kids to that school as sent their kids to that school as integration took place. And then we got integration took place. And then we got integration took place. And then we got excited about the possibility of excited about the possibility of excited about the possibility of winning. And our desire to win overcame winning. And our desire to win overcame winning. And our desire to win overcame our desire to be segregated and we our desire to be segregated and we our desire to be segregated and we started winning. And now you see this started winning. And now you see this started winning. And now you see this pride, you see this joy, you see this pride, you see this joy, you see this pride, you see this joy, you see this triumph for this state. And on those triumph for this state. And on those triumph for this state. And on those game days, black people, white people, game days, black people, white people, game days, black people, white people, poor people, rich people are all glued

poor people, rich people are all glued poor people, rich people are all glued to the TV. They're all at the stadium. to the TV. They're all at the stadium. to the TV. They're all at the stadium. They're all celebrating. It's like They're all celebrating. It's like They're all celebrating. It's like what's happening with the Knicks in New what's happening with the Knicks in New what's happening with the Knicks in New York City right now. That triumph is a York City right now. That triumph is a York City right now. That triumph is a state triumph. It's an everybody state triumph. It's an everybody state triumph. It's an everybody triumph. [sighs and gasps] triumph. [sighs and gasps] triumph. [sighs and gasps] And the only thing I want to acknowledge And the only thing I want to acknowledge And the only thing I want to acknowledge is that you owe that to the civil rights is that you owe that to the civil rights is that you owe that to the civil rights movement. You owe that to the courageous movement. You owe that to the courageous movement. You owe that to the courageous people who said, "No, we reject people who said, "No, we reject people who said, "No, we reject segregation forever." And if we segregation forever." And if we segregation forever." And if we understand that, then we begin to understand that, then we begin to understand that, then we begin to imagine, well, what where else might we imagine, well, what where else might we imagine, well, what where else might we have achievement and progress and win have achievement and progress and win have achievement and progress and win things if we got past that bigotry, if things if we got past that bigotry, if things if we got past that bigotry, if we got past that fear? I always feel we got past that fear? I always feel we got past that fear? I always feel that you could make a real argument that that you could make a real argument that that you could make a real argument that Montgomery is a birthplace of American Montgomery is a birthplace of American Montgomery is a birthplace of American democracy, not where it was conceived, democracy, not where it was conceived, democracy, not where it was conceived, right? There's a conception of American right? There's a conception of American right? There's a conception of American democracy that happens in arguably 1776, democracy that happens in arguably 1776, democracy that happens in arguably 1776, you know, or maybe before that, you know, or maybe before that, you know, or maybe before that, depending on how you want to think about depending on how you want to think about depending on how you want to think about it. But America is not a democracy it. But America is not a democracy it. But America is not a democracy >> until at least after the Civil Rights >> until at least after the Civil Rights >> until at least after the Civil Rights and the Voting Rights Acts on on any and the Voting Rights Acts on on any and the Voting Rights Acts on on any real measure. real measure. real measure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um that we would recognize today. >> Um that we would recognize today. >> Um that we would recognize today. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what turns that begins here with the >> And what turns that begins here with the >> And what turns that begins here with the bus boycott. bus boycott. bus boycott. >> And this place is not just a monument to >> And this place is not just a monument to >> And this place is not just a monument to segregation or Jim Crow. The civil segregation or Jim Crow. The civil segregation or Jim Crow. The civil rights movement I I really do think to rights movement I I really do think to rights movement I I really do think to be the most be the most be the most beautiful moment and movement beautiful moment and movement beautiful moment and movement >> in American history. of course braided >> in American history. of course braided >> in American history. of course braided in with some of the absolute in with some of the absolute in with some of the absolute ugliest and most horrifying moments in ugliest and most horrifying moments in ugliest and most horrifying moments in American history, but somehow taking American history, but somehow taking American history, but somehow taking that in its totality, not choosing one that in its totality, not choosing one that in its totality, not choosing one or the other, not seeing so much of the or the other, not seeing so much of the or the other, not seeing so much of the ugliness ugliness ugliness >> that the heroism disappears that you >> that the heroism disappears that you >> that the heroism disappears that you cease to see that as America too or vice cease to see that as America too or vice cease to see that as America too or vice versa. That feels like a mature versa. That feels like a mature versa. That feels like a mature relationship relationship relationship to our history. like wisdom is holding to our history. like wisdom is holding to our history. like wisdom is holding both things as part of the American both things as part of the American both things as part of the American synthesis. synthesis. synthesis. >> I even think it it it actually starts >> I even think it it it actually starts >> I even think it it it actually starts earlier than that. When when I um think earlier than that. When when I um think earlier than that. When when I um think about the legacy of slavery, one of the about the legacy of slavery, one of the about the legacy of slavery, one of the things that I've just been focused on a things that I've just been focused on a things that I've just been focused on a lot since we started working on our lot since we started working on our lot since we started working on our sites is how extraordinary it was that sites is how extraordinary it was that sites is how extraordinary it was that when those 4 million when those 4 million when those 4 million black people were emancipated after the black people were emancipated after the black people were emancipated after the Civil War, Civil War, Civil War, they decided not to seek revenge and they decided not to seek revenge and they decided not to seek revenge and retribution against the people who retribution against the people who retribution against the people who enslaved them. They knew who sold their enslaved them. They knew who sold their enslaved them. They knew who sold their children. They knew who abused them.

children. They knew who abused them. children. They knew who abused them. They knew who raped them. They knew who They knew who raped them. They knew who They knew who raped them. They knew who did all of these horrific things. And did all of these horrific things. And did all of these horrific things. And they could have given into the emotion, they could have given into the emotion, they could have given into the emotion, the desire to seek retribution and the desire to seek retribution and the desire to seek retribution and revenge against the enslavers, the revenge against the enslavers, the revenge against the enslavers, the people who did these torturous things. people who did these torturous things. people who did these torturous things. But instead, when you look at what But instead, when you look at what But instead, when you look at what happens after the Civil War, you see happens after the Civil War, you see happens after the Civil War, you see this community of people choose America. this community of people choose America. this community of people choose America. They say, "You know what? We're going to They say, "You know what? We're going to They say, "You know what? We're going to build schools. We're going to build build schools. We're going to build build schools. We're going to build churches. We're going to build families. churches. We're going to build families. churches. We're going to build families. We're going to commit to this country We're going to commit to this country We're going to commit to this country like nobody's ever committed before. like nobody's ever committed before. like nobody's ever committed before. Black men registered to vote. They ran Black men registered to vote. They ran Black men registered to vote. They ran for office. They tried to create harmony for office. They tried to create harmony for office. They tried to create harmony and peace with those who had enslaved and peace with those who had enslaved and peace with those who had enslaved and tortured them. It was a remarkable and tortured them. It was a remarkable and tortured them. It was a remarkable commitment to a healthier, better commitment to a healthier, better commitment to a healthier, better future. It collapsed quickly and that's future. It collapsed quickly and that's future. It collapsed quickly and that's what gives rise to a century of what gives rise to a century of what gives rise to a century of segregation and Jim Crow laws. Black segregation and Jim Crow laws. Black segregation and Jim Crow laws. Black people were killed by the police on people were killed by the police on people were killed by the police on buses. It wasn't just one day. It was a buses. It wasn't just one day. It was a buses. It wasn't just one day. It was a whole history of abuse. you know, black whole history of abuse. you know, black whole history of abuse. you know, black people had to get on the front of the people had to get on the front of the people had to get on the front of the bus, pay their fair, get off the bus, go bus, pay their fair, get off the bus, go bus, pay their fair, get off the bus, go to the back door, and sometimes the bus to the back door, and sometimes the bus to the back door, and sometimes the bus would just drive away before a black would just drive away before a black would just drive away before a black person could get on the bus. So many person could get on the bus. So many person could get on the bus. So many black riders in Montgomery would be left black riders in Montgomery would be left black riders in Montgomery would be left humiliated on the street, and that was humiliated on the street, and that was humiliated on the street, and that was the reality. But to understand what the reality. But to understand what the reality. But to understand what happens in 1955, I think we need to have happens in 1955, I think we need to have happens in 1955, I think we need to have some appreciation for what happened in some appreciation for what happened in some appreciation for what happened in 1865. Because when they made that first 1865. Because when they made that first 1865. Because when they made that first commitment to build America and were commitment to build America and were commitment to build America and were brutally and violently rejected, you brutally and violently rejected, you brutally and violently rejected, you could also understand why people might could also understand why people might could also understand why people might say, "We're never going to do that

say, "We're never going to do that say, "We're never going to do that again." But that's exactly what happens again." But that's exactly what happens again." But that's exactly what happens in 1955 in 1955 in 1955 when people finally said, "We're going when people finally said, "We're going when people finally said, "We're going to challenge this." to challenge this." to challenge this." They were believing in an America that They were believing in an America that They were believing in an America that would respect them, that would respond would respect them, that would respond would respect them, that would respond to their challenge, to stay off the to their challenge, to stay off the to their challenge, to stay off the buses. Every black person in this buses. Every black person in this buses. Every black person in this community, 50,000 people, it's community, 50,000 people, it's community, 50,000 people, it's remarkable. And they succeed. And that remarkable. And they succeed. And that remarkable. And they succeed. And that success then gives birth to the civil success then gives birth to the civil success then gives birth to the civil rights movement and inspired people, rights movement and inspired people, rights movement and inspired people, black and white, to commit to swims black and white, to commit to swims black and white, to commit to swims where they might be poisoned or where they might be poisoned or where they might be poisoned or threatened with acid. to commit to threatened with acid. to commit to threatened with acid. to commit to readins where they might get beaten and readins where they might get beaten and readins where they might get beaten and pulled out of libraries, to commit to pulled out of libraries, to commit to pulled out of libraries, to commit to freedom rides where writers were bloody freedom rides where writers were bloody freedom rides where writers were bloody brutalized, and to commit to all of that brutalized, and to commit to all of that brutalized, and to commit to all of that activism and struggle that then yielded activism and struggle that then yielded activism and struggle that then yielded this incredible moment in 1965 where this incredible moment in 1965 where this incredible moment in 1965 where democracy in this country took shape in democracy in this country took shape in democracy in this country took shape in a way that had never existed before. And a way that had never existed before. And a way that had never existed before. And I think you're right, that decade, I think you're right, that decade, I think you're right, that decade, that's that's why we have it at our that's that's why we have it at our that's that's why we have it at our Montgomery Square, this language, the Montgomery Square, this language, the Montgomery Square, this language, the decade that changed the world. One thing decade that changed the world. One thing decade that changed the world. One thing that the museums and the sculpture sites that the museums and the sculpture sites that the museums and the sculpture sites and the monuments here that that you and the monuments here that that you and the monuments here that that you have have have put together, one thing they do really put together, one thing they do really put together, one thing they do really beautifully is what you did there, which beautifully is what you did there, which beautifully is what you did there, which is show this is an integrated history.

is show this is an integrated history. is show this is an integrated history. There's no one moment. There's no There's no one moment. There's no There's no one moment. There's no eras disconnected from each other. And eras disconnected from each other. And eras disconnected from each other. And so it begins even before slavery in this so it begins even before slavery in this so it begins even before slavery in this country begins at the beginning of a country begins at the beginning of a country begins at the beginning of a slave trade. When you walk in the slave trade. When you walk in the slave trade. When you walk in the museum, museum, museum, >> you're greeted with waves. >> you're greeted with waves. >> you're greeted with waves. >> And I I spend a lot of time with data >> And I I spend a lot of time with data >> And I I spend a lot of time with data visualizations in my day. visualizations in my day. visualizations in my day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm not usually very moved by them. >> I'm not usually very moved by them. >> I'm not usually very moved by them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you have one that is visualizing the >> But you have one that is visualizing the >> But you have one that is visualizing the flow of ships of slave ships and where flow of ships of slave ships and where flow of ships of slave ships and where they went, right, which is not initially they went, right, which is not initially they went, right, which is not initially primarily to America. That's right. The primarily to America. That's right. The primarily to America. That's right. The slave trade was much more global than slave trade was much more global than slave trade was much more global than that. But you begin to see as you take that. But you begin to see as you take that. But you begin to see as you take into the 1700s, the 1800s, it into the 1700s, the 1800s, it into the 1700s, the 1800s, it concentrate in America towards cotton, concentrate in America towards cotton, concentrate in America towards cotton, towards the south, towards those riches. towards the south, towards those riches. towards the south, towards those riches. >> And this is, I think, the first thing >> And this is, I think, the first thing >> And this is, I think, the first thing that began to really settle in to my that began to really settle in to my that began to really settle in to my soul from being at the museum. It made soul from being at the museum. It made soul from being at the museum. It made me think about the people on the ships me think about the people on the ships me think about the people on the ships in two ways. Mhm. in two ways. Mhm. in two ways. Mhm. >> One is, and you have incredibly moving >> One is, and you have incredibly moving >> One is, and you have incredibly moving installations around this, the people installations around this, the people installations around this, the people ripped from their homes and their ripped from their homes and their ripped from their homes and their families, pregnant women, children, families, pregnant women, children, families, pregnant women, children, and 2 million die in the crossing, which and 2 million die in the crossing, which and 2 million die in the crossing, which is a huge number of people.

is a huge number of people. is a huge number of people. >> So many throw themselves overboard. >> So many throw themselves overboard. >> So many throw themselves overboard. It's gutting. It's like a truly gutting It's gutting. It's like a truly gutting It's gutting. It's like a truly gutting >> thing to sit with. I also spent time >> thing to sit with. I also spent time >> thing to sit with. I also spent time thinking about the enslavers. Mhm. And thinking about the enslavers. Mhm. And thinking about the enslavers. Mhm. And one thing that was really present for me one thing that was really present for me one thing that was really present for me throughout the work you all have done throughout the work you all have done throughout the work you all have done here is a power of stories here is a power of stories here is a power of stories and what it must have taken. What and what it must have taken. What and what it must have taken. What stories it must have taken to not see stories it must have taken to not see stories it must have taken to not see the humanity of the people before you. the humanity of the people before you. the humanity of the people before you. Not see that when they were weeping Not see that when they were weeping Not see that when they were weeping those tears mattered. Not see that the those tears mattered. Not see that the those tears mattered. Not see that the families you were destroying and families you were destroying and families you were destroying and dissolving loved each other and mattered dissolving loved each other and mattered dissolving loved each other and mattered exactly as much as your own. not see exactly as much as your own. not see exactly as much as your own. not see that you that they were humans and that that you that they were humans and that that you that they were humans and that you had become you had become you had become >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the monster, >> the monster, >> the monster, >> right? To do all this with a Bible in >> right? To do all this with a Bible in >> right? To do all this with a Bible in your hand. your hand. your hand. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm curious, having sat in so much of >> I'm curious, having sat in so much of >> I'm curious, having sat in so much of this, how you understand what those this, how you understand what those this, how you understand what those stories were. stories were. stories were. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That led people to sacrifice their >> That led people to sacrifice their >> That led people to sacrifice their humanity and to so betray the humanity humanity and to so betray the humanity humanity and to so betray the humanity of the people they were enslaving. I I of the people they were enslaving. I I of the people they were enslaving. I I think that's such an important question think that's such an important question think that's such an important question and the transatlantic trade in that and the transatlantic trade in that and the transatlantic trade in that water in the Atlantic Ocean um just as water in the Atlantic Ocean um just as water in the Atlantic Ocean um just as backdrop, you know, that exhibit really backdrop, you know, that exhibit really backdrop, you know, that exhibit really came out of my first trip to Africa and came out of my first trip to Africa and came out of my first trip to Africa and and I I mention this because I think and I I mention this because I think and I I mention this because I think it's true for all of us. It's just we're it's true for all of us. It's just we're it's true for all of us. It's just we're all learning, evolving. So, I grew up on all learning, evolving. So, I grew up on all learning, evolving. So, I grew up on the ocean. The Atlantic Ocean was the the ocean. The Atlantic Ocean was the the ocean. The Atlantic Ocean was the beach. It was a place to go. And then I beach. It was a place to go. And then I beach. It was a place to go. And then I went to Africa for the first time.

went to Africa for the first time. went to Africa for the first time. um misconnect. I was supposed to give a um misconnect. I was supposed to give a um misconnect. I was supposed to give a speech in Abuja in Nigeria and I got speech in Abuja in Nigeria and I got speech in Abuja in Nigeria and I got there too late and so they sent somebody there too late and so they sent somebody there too late and so they sent somebody uh to meet me at the airport in Lagos uh to meet me at the airport in Lagos uh to meet me at the airport in Lagos who was supposed to take care of me and who was supposed to take care of me and who was supposed to take care of me and this young lawyer met me at the airport this young lawyer met me at the airport this young lawyer met me at the airport and he was very nice and first thing he and he was very nice and first thing he and he was very nice and first thing he said was I've canceled your hotel room. said was I've canceled your hotel room. said was I've canceled your hotel room. You're not going to stay in a hotel. You're not going to stay in a hotel. You're not going to stay in a hotel. You're going to stay with me and my You're going to stay with me and my You're going to stay with me and my family and my son is excited to meet you family and my son is excited to meet you family and my son is excited to meet you and he's going to share. And so he was and he's going to share. And so he was and he's going to share. And so he was very he was committed to giving me an very he was committed to giving me an very he was committed to giving me an authentic experience and he said I had authentic experience and he said I had authentic experience and he said I had to show you Legos. It was like 11:00 at to show you Legos. It was like 11:00 at to show you Legos. It was like 11:00 at night and he took me all around the city night and he took me all around the city night and he took me all around the city and we would literally go into and we would literally go into and we would literally go into neighborhoods and he would start neighborhoods and he would start neighborhoods and he would start shouting, "Hey everybody, come out and shouting, "Hey everybody, come out and shouting, "Hey everybody, come out and meet this black American lawyer and meet this black American lawyer and meet this black American lawyer and people would come out and these women people would come out and these women people would come out and these women were trying to sell me shea butter and were trying to sell me shea butter and were trying to sell me shea butter and all these products and it was rich. Uh I all these products and it was rich. Uh I all these products and it was rich. Uh I was tired, but it was rich." And he took was tired, but it was rich." And he took was tired, but it was rich." And he took me all around the city. I finally said, me all around the city. I finally said, me all around the city. I finally said, "Man, I got to get a little rest. Can we "Man, I got to get a little rest. Can we "Man, I got to get a little rest. Can we can we just go home and get a little I can we just go home and get a little I can we just go home and get a little I got to get up early." He said, "Okay, got to get up early." He said, "Okay, got to get up early." He said, "Okay, one more place." And uh he took me to one more place." And uh he took me to one more place." And uh he took me to the beach. I didn't even think about the the beach. I didn't even think about the the beach. I didn't even think about the beach in Lagos. It was not pretty. It beach in Lagos. It was not pretty. It beach in Lagos. It was not pretty. It was dark. It was kind of concrete slabs.

was dark. It was kind of concrete slabs. was dark. It was kind of concrete slabs. There were soldiers with guns and uh There were soldiers with guns and uh There were soldiers with guns and uh fast food play. Nothing beautiful about fast food play. Nothing beautiful about fast food play. Nothing beautiful about it. He said, "Come on, come on." And we it. He said, "Come on, come on." And we it. He said, "Come on, come on." And we climbed over the concrete slabs down to climbed over the concrete slabs down to climbed over the concrete slabs down to the shore of the beach. It was dark. You the shore of the beach. It was dark. You the shore of the beach. It was dark. You could see the moon shining across the could see the moon shining across the could see the moon shining across the ocean. And this guy had been so ocean. And this guy had been so ocean. And this guy had been so gregarious and so talkative, all of a gregarious and so talkative, all of a gregarious and so talkative, all of a sudden got so quiet. And I was standing sudden got so quiet. And I was standing sudden got so quiet. And I was standing there and I looked over at him and he there and I looked over at him and he there and I looked over at him and he was crying. He had a tear running down was crying. He had a tear running down was crying. He had a tear running down his face. And then he looked at me and his face. And then he looked at me and his face. And then he looked at me and he said, "I brought you here because I he said, "I brought you here because I he said, "I brought you here because I wanted to tell you I'm sorry. This is wanted to tell you I'm sorry. This is wanted to tell you I'm sorry. This is where we lost you." where we lost you." where we lost you." >> And for the first time in my life, I >> And for the first time in my life, I >> And for the first time in my life, I realized I was standing on the other realized I was standing on the other realized I was standing on the other side of this ocean that separated me side of this ocean that separated me side of this ocean that separated me from everything that's important about from everything that's important about from everything that's important about me. My identity, my culture, my history me. My identity, my culture, my history me. My identity, my culture, my history was all taken from me by the Atlantic was all taken from me by the Atlantic was all taken from me by the Atlantic Ocean. If I take a DNA test, I show up Ocean. If I take a DNA test, I show up Ocean. If I take a DNA test, I show up in 24 different countries. in 24 different countries. in 24 different countries. And it it hit me hard. First time. And And it it hit me hard. First time. And And it it hit me hard. First time. And it changed my relationship to the it changed my relationship to the it changed my relationship to the Atlantic Ocean. When I got back here, I Atlantic Ocean. When I got back here, I Atlantic Ocean. When I got back here, I realized that that body of water needed realized that that body of water needed realized that that body of water needed to be understood more honestly. We've to be understood more honestly. We've to be understood more honestly. We've spent millions of dollars looking for spent millions of dollars looking for spent millions of dollars looking for trinkets from the Titanic in the trinkets from the Titanic in the trinkets from the Titanic in the Atlantic and we haven't spent hardly Atlantic and we haven't spent hardly Atlantic and we haven't spent hardly anything to reckon with the two million anything to reckon with the two million anything to reckon with the two million bodies that are buried in the bottom of bodies that are buried in the bottom of bodies that are buried in the bottom of that ocean. And so a story can help us that ocean. And so a story can help us that ocean. And so a story can help us understand things about who we are, our understand things about who we are, our understand things about who we are, our relationship to the things around us relationship to the things around us relationship to the things around us that are important. I still love the

that are important. I still love the that are important. I still love the beach. I still see it as a place of beach. I still see it as a place of beach. I still see it as a place of beauty. But I also see this need to help beauty. But I also see this need to help beauty. But I also see this need to help others understand the harm that was others understand the harm that was others understand the harm that was caused by moving millions of people off caused by moving millions of people off caused by moving millions of people off of their land, their place, their space, of their land, their place, their space, of their land, their place, their space, it's really unprecedented in human it's really unprecedented in human it's really unprecedented in human history. And so the second part of your history. And so the second part of your history. And so the second part of your question gets to the how, why? And when question gets to the how, why? And when question gets to the how, why? And when I look at the history of enslavement and I look at the history of enslavement and I look at the history of enslavement and you try to understand how did that come you try to understand how did that come you try to understand how did that come because you're right, people who because you're right, people who because you're right, people who enslaved other people thought of enslaved other people thought of enslaved other people thought of themselves as moral and decent and themselves as moral and decent and themselves as moral and decent and Christian and and you have to ask, well, Christian and and you have to ask, well, Christian and and you have to ask, well, how do you think of yourself as moral how do you think of yourself as moral how do you think of yourself as moral and decent and Christian when you're and decent and Christian when you're and decent and Christian when you're pulling away a screaming woman from her pulling away a screaming woman from her pulling away a screaming woman from her children knowing that that mother will children knowing that that mother will children knowing that that mother will never see those children again because never see those children again because never see those children again because you're treating her as property? How do you're treating her as property? How do you're treating her as property? How do you do that? you do that? you do that? >> And you beat her for crying. beat her. >> And you beat her for crying. beat her. >> And you beat her for crying. beat her. You have so many exhibits on this. You have so many exhibits on this. You have so many exhibits on this. >> Absolutely. And you abuse and and I >> Absolutely. And you abuse and and I >> Absolutely. And you abuse and and I think you have to understand that that think you have to understand that that think you have to understand that that takes a false narrative. In order for takes a false narrative. In order for takes a false narrative. In order for those people to feel moral and decent those people to feel moral and decent those people to feel moral and decent and Christian, there had to be a false and Christian, there had to be a false and Christian, there had to be a false narrative legitimating, sustaining, narrative legitimating, sustaining, narrative legitimating, sustaining, animating what they were seeing. And so animating what they were seeing. And so animating what they were seeing. And so we created a false narrative in this we created a false narrative in this we created a false narrative in this country. It actually began when country. It actually began when country. It actually began when Europeans arrived and we had to deal Europeans arrived and we had to deal Europeans arrived and we had to deal with indigenous peoples, which is part with indigenous peoples, which is part with indigenous peoples, which is part of the reason why I think we need to of the reason why I think we need to of the reason why I think we need to talk more about that history. When we talk more about that history. When we talk more about that history. When we created our constitution, when we created our constitution, when we created our constitution, when we declared independence and advanced these declared independence and advanced these declared independence and advanced these ideas of equality and freedom and ideas of equality and freedom and ideas of equality and freedom and justice, we denied native people

justice, we denied native people justice, we denied native people protection. We said, "Oh, no, those protection. We said, "Oh, no, those protection. We said, "Oh, no, those native people, they're different." And native people, they're different." And native people, they're different." And we created this narrative of racial we created this narrative of racial we created this narrative of racial difference that we used to justify difference that we used to justify difference that we used to justify forcing people off their lands, the forcing people off their lands, the forcing people off their lands, the famine, the war, the disease. And that famine, the war, the disease. And that famine, the war, the disease. And that narrative of racial difference, the same narrative of racial difference, the same narrative of racial difference, the same narrative is what was used to justify narrative is what was used to justify narrative is what was used to justify 246 years of slavery. And the false 246 years of slavery. And the false 246 years of slavery. And the false narrative was that black people are not narrative was that black people are not narrative was that black people are not as good as white people. That black as good as white people. That black as good as white people. That black people are less human, less evolved, people are less human, less evolved, people are less human, less evolved, less capable. And that's why I believe less capable. And that's why I believe less capable. And that's why I believe the great evil of slavery wasn't the the great evil of slavery wasn't the the great evil of slavery wasn't the bondage, the forced labor, the violence, bondage, the forced labor, the violence, bondage, the forced labor, the violence, all of those things. I think the true all of those things. I think the true all of those things. I think the true evil of American slavery was the evil of American slavery was the evil of American slavery was the narrative we created to justify narrative we created to justify narrative we created to justify enslavement. enslavement. enslavement. And when I give talks, I often argue And when I give talks, I often argue And when I give talks, I often argue that the North won the Civil War, but that the North won the Civil War, but that the North won the Civil War, but the South won the narrative war. Those the South won the narrative war. Those the South won the narrative war. Those ideas of racial difference and racial ideas of racial difference and racial ideas of racial difference and racial hierarchy, they they continued. And then hierarchy, they they continued. And then hierarchy, they they continued. And then important footnote on that. Even many of important footnote on that. Even many of important footnote on that. Even many of the abolitionists in the north, even the abolitionists in the north, even the abolitionists in the north, even many of the people who did not believe many of the people who did not believe many of the people who did not believe in slavery also did not believe in in slavery also did not believe in in slavery also did not believe in racial equality, which is why racial equality, which is why racial equality, which is why reconstruction collapses, they retreated reconstruction collapses, they retreated reconstruction collapses, they retreated from that because they were being from that because they were being from that because they were being governed by this narrative of racial governed by this narrative of racial governed by this narrative of racial differences. So then when southern differences. So then when southern differences. So then when southern states start codifying racial states start codifying racial states start codifying racial segregation and creating Jim Crow, it segregation and creating Jim Crow, it segregation and creating Jim Crow, it didn't seem as strange as you as you didn't seem as strange as you as you didn't seem as strange as you as you would imagine it should be to have laws would imagine it should be to have laws would imagine it should be to have laws barring black people and white people barring black people and white people barring black people and white people from sitting in the same part of a bus from sitting in the same part of a bus from sitting in the same part of a bus or playing checkers together or living or playing checkers together or living or playing checkers together or living next to one another. This absurd crazy next to one another. This absurd crazy next to one another. This absurd crazy world where black kids couldn't play

world where black kids couldn't play world where black kids couldn't play with white kids and black people with white kids and black people with white kids and black people couldn't say this to a white person. couldn't say this to a white person. couldn't say this to a white person. that is all rooted in this narrative and that is all rooted in this narrative and that is all rooted in this narrative and and we talk about mass incarceration in and we talk about mass incarceration in and we talk about mass incarceration in the same context because I think there's the same context because I think there's the same context because I think there's a way in which we have tolerated a way in which we have tolerated a way in which we have tolerated throwing away hundreds of thousands of throwing away hundreds of thousands of throwing away hundreds of thousands of people people people because it's politically expedient. You because it's politically expedient. You because it's politically expedient. You know the drug war in the 1970s uh you know the drug war in the 1970s uh you know the drug war in the 1970s uh you know we had 300,000 people in our jails know we had 300,000 people in our jails know we had 300,000 people in our jails and prisons until the 1970s and by the and prisons until the 1970s and by the and prisons until the 1970s and by the end of the century we had over 2 end of the century we had over 2 end of the century we had over 2 million. How did that happen? Well, we million. How did that happen? Well, we million. How did that happen? Well, we had people from both political parties had people from both political parties had people from both political parties saying that people who are drug saying that people who are drug saying that people who are drug addicted, people who are drug dependent addicted, people who are drug dependent addicted, people who are drug dependent are criminals who should be punished for are criminals who should be punished for are criminals who should be punished for their addiction and dependency. Even the their addiction and dependency. Even the their addiction and dependency. Even the people when I'm representing my Clinton, people when I'm representing my Clinton, people when I'm representing my Clinton, people are trying to kill the people I people are trying to kill the people I people are trying to kill the people I represent. It's heartbreaking to me. I'm represent. It's heartbreaking to me. I'm represent. It's heartbreaking to me. I'm working on a case now involving a working on a case now involving a working on a case now involving a 10-year-old child. And there are people 10-year-old child. And there are people 10-year-old child. And there are people in this state that refuse to put this in this state that refuse to put this in this state that refuse to put this child in the juvenile system. They're child in the juvenile system. They're child in the juvenile system. They're trying to keep him in the adult system. trying to keep him in the adult system. trying to keep him in the adult system. 10-year-old boy. And because there's no 10-year-old boy. And because there's no 10-year-old boy. And because there's no place for 10-year-old children in the place for 10-year-old children in the place for 10-year-old children in the adult system, what they do with a adult system, what they do with a adult system, what they do with a 10-year-old boy is put him in solitary 10-year-old boy is put him in solitary 10-year-old boy is put him in solitary confinement.

confinement. confinement. >> And that is such a destructive, cruel, >> And that is such a destructive, cruel, >> And that is such a destructive, cruel, abusive thing to do. And if I could just abusive thing to do. And if I could just abusive thing to do. And if I could just get them close enough to this child, I get them close enough to this child, I get them close enough to this child, I don't think anybody would say that's don't think anybody would say that's don't think anybody would say that's what we should be doing. But they won't what we should be doing. But they won't what we should be doing. But they won't get close. get close. get close. >> But some of them are close to this >> But some of them are close to this >> But some of them are close to this child. There was a judge who sentenced child. There was a judge who sentenced child. There was a judge who sentenced that child. No. that child. No. that child. No. >> Well, but judges don't have to get close >> Well, but judges don't have to get close >> Well, but judges don't have to get close to the people they sentence. I mean, I to the people they sentence. I mean, I to the people they sentence. I mean, I think one of the things if I could think one of the things if I could think one of the things if I could radically change our criminal legal radically change our criminal legal radically change our criminal legal system, I would make judges go to jails system, I would make judges go to jails system, I would make judges go to jails and prisons and see what's happening to and prisons and see what's happening to and prisons and see what's happening to people in jails and prisons, I would people in jails and prisons, I would people in jails and prisons, I would actually make them spend time in actually make them spend time in actually make them spend time in low-income communities, the zip codes low-income communities, the zip codes low-income communities, the zip codes where you have the highest rates of where you have the highest rates of where you have the highest rates of arrest and pro. I would I would want arrest and pro. I would I would want arrest and pro. I would I would want them to go and actually see the lives of them to go and actually see the lives of them to go and actually see the lives of children, see what's happening to kids children, see what's happening to kids children, see what's happening to kids who are born into violent families where who are born into violent families where who are born into violent families where people are always shouting that are people are always shouting that are people are always shouting that are living near gunshots all the time to see living near gunshots all the time to see living near gunshots all the time to see the environments so they could have an the environments so they could have an the environments so they could have an appreciation for who that person is. But appreciation for who that person is. But appreciation for who that person is. But that's the problem now is that we have that's the problem now is that we have that's the problem now is that we have so many people with the power police, so many people with the power police, so many people with the power police, prosecutors, and judges who are prosecutors, and judges who are prosecutors, and judges who are disconnected. And if the only thing you disconnected. And if the only thing you disconnected. And if the only thing you see is people at their worst, then that see is people at their worst, then that see is people at their worst, then that can mis mislead you as well, right? And can mis mislead you as well, right? And can mis mislead you as well, right? And and that's what happens to a lot of law and that's what happens to a lot of law and that's what happens to a lot of law enforcement. You only see people on enforcement. You only see people on enforcement. You only see people on their worst day and that makes you angry their worst day and that makes you angry their worst day and that makes you angry and and I get it. But if you actually and and I get it. But if you actually and and I get it. But if you actually spent time with their mothers, their spent time with their mothers, their spent time with their mothers, their siblings, the people trying to help siblings, the people trying to help siblings, the people trying to help them. If you spent time in poor them. If you spent time in poor them. If you spent time in poor communities and you actually saw the communities and you actually saw the communities and you actually saw the struggle people are engaged in to struggle people are engaged in to struggle people are engaged in to overcome, then I think you'd actually overcome, then I think you'd actually overcome, then I think you'd actually have a different mindset. But no, I have a different mindset. But no, I have a different mindset. But no, I think this child is a consequence of the think this child is a consequence of the think this child is a consequence of the way in which we've divided things.

way in which we've divided things. way in which we've divided things. Almost all the kids under the age of 13 Almost all the kids under the age of 13 Almost all the kids under the age of 13 in this state who've been condemned in in this state who've been condemned in in this state who've been condemned in this way are kids of color and the this way are kids of color and the this way are kids of color and the judges are almost all white. judges are almost all white. judges are almost all white. >> I I wish in the lynching room one of the >> I I wish in the lynching room one of the >> I I wish in the lynching room one of the things and I found that of [snorts] things and I found that of [snorts] things and I found that of [snorts] everything I sat in here to be the everything I sat in here to be the everything I sat in here to be the hardest hardest hardest >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> uh space to sit in. >> uh space to sit in. >> uh space to sit in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But two things really sat with me. One >> But two things really sat with me. One >> But two things really sat with me. One was was was >> cuz you you have put up all this >> cuz you you have put up all this >> cuz you you have put up all this coverage of lynchings, right? newspapers coverage of lynchings, right? newspapers coverage of lynchings, right? newspapers and announcements and invitations, and announcements and invitations, and announcements and invitations, right, to to come out to see the right, to to come out to see the right, to to come out to see the lynching. lynching. lynching. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Of kids, of 13-year-olds, of >> Of kids, of 13-year-olds, of >> Of kids, of 13-year-olds, of 15year-olds. There's one in which an 15year-olds. There's one in which an 15year-olds. There's one in which an infant infant infant >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> is lynched. >> is lynched. >> is lynched. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's talked about, right? Just as >> And that's talked about, right? Just as >> And that's talked about, right? Just as a fact like come, you know, this is what a fact like come, you know, this is what a fact like come, you know, this is what happened. This is what we did. And then happened. This is what we did. And then happened. This is what we did. And then the other was this other dimension of the other was this other dimension of the other was this other dimension of the news reports that you put up on it. the news reports that you put up on it. the news reports that you put up on it. the thirst for the thirst for the thirst for violence and and and the the like there violence and and and the the like there violence and and and the the like there were multiple where they couldn't find were multiple where they couldn't find were multiple where they couldn't find the person so they lynched the brother.

the person so they lynched the brother. the person so they lynched the brother. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And that was again reported on >> And that was again reported on >> And that was again reported on advertised. advertised. advertised. >> He talked too much. Now he won't >> He talked too much. Now he won't >> He talked too much. Now he won't >> talk anymore was the way another one was >> talk anymore was the way another one was >> talk anymore was the way another one was described. described. described. >> You know we were just talking about >> You know we were just talking about >> You know we were just talking about maybe this difference between maybe this difference between maybe this difference between >> being close to someone and being near >> being close to someone and being near >> being close to someone and being near them is maybe a different way of saying them is maybe a different way of saying them is maybe a different way of saying what I was saying. There was a judge at what I was saying. There was a judge at what I was saying. There was a judge at some point near that child. there's a some point near that child. there's a some point near that child. there's a prosecutor near that child in a room prosecutor near that child in a room prosecutor near that child in a room with that child. And in these with that child. And in these with that child. And in these communities, there is maybe not communities, there is maybe not communities, there is maybe not closeness in the way you're describing closeness in the way you're describing closeness in the way you're describing it, an intimacy, a seeing of another it, an intimacy, a seeing of another it, an intimacy, a seeing of another person's struggle, humanity, dignity, person's struggle, humanity, dignity, person's struggle, humanity, dignity, soul, but there's nearness. And in some soul, but there's nearness. And in some soul, but there's nearness. And in some ways, the nearness, it seems that you ways, the nearness, it seems that you ways, the nearness, it seems that you can feel a pulsing fear behind it, can feel a pulsing fear behind it, can feel a pulsing fear behind it, right? particularly if there's ever uh right? particularly if there's ever uh right? particularly if there's ever uh evidence of revolt evidence of revolt evidence of revolt >> of violence of people trying to fight >> of violence of people trying to fight >> of violence of people trying to fight back in a system that is destroying them back in a system that is destroying them back in a system that is destroying them and then the system has to come down and then the system has to come down and then the system has to come down with extraordinary with extraordinary with extraordinary force on them or anybody near them force on them or anybody near them force on them or anybody near them escape.

escape. escape. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. The punishment for escape when >> Right. The punishment for escape when >> Right. The punishment for escape when that would be in some ways the most that would be in some ways the most that would be in some ways the most honorable and human honorable and human honorable and human >> response to what is being done. the >> response to what is being done. the >> response to what is being done. the number of people who are brutalized or number of people who are brutalized or number of people who are brutalized or at times I think lynched but certainly at times I think lynched but certainly at times I think lynched but certainly brutalized during slavery for just going brutalized during slavery for just going brutalized during slavery for just going at night to try to see their wife who at night to try to see their wife who at night to try to see their wife who has been moved. has been moved. has been moved. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or their mother. There's something about >> Or their mother. There's something about >> Or their mother. There's something about this nearness but not this nearness but not this nearness but not >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> closess. I I I I think that's right. I >> closess. I I I I think that's right. I >> closess. I I I I think that's right. I mean, the people who were most at risk mean, the people who were most at risk mean, the people who were most at risk of lynching violence in the 20th century of lynching violence in the 20th century of lynching violence in the 20th century were black veterans after World War I were black veterans after World War I were black veterans after World War I and black veterans after World War II. and black veterans after World War II. and black veterans after World War II. Why? because they had gone to Europe and Why? because they had gone to Europe and Why? because they had gone to Europe and fought. They've been given a gun. They fought. They've been given a gun. They fought. They've been given a gun. They had done something that people applauded had done something that people applauded had done something that people applauded them for. France celebrated them. And them for. France celebrated them. And them for. France celebrated them. And now they're back in Mississippi. Now now they're back in Mississippi. Now now they're back in Mississippi. Now they're back in Georgia. And for the they're back in Georgia. And for the they're back in Georgia. And for the local power structure, that was a local power structure, that was a local power structure, that was a threat. And so they would try to threat. And so they would try to threat. And so they would try to humiliate them. Boy, take that uniform humiliate them. Boy, take that uniform humiliate them. Boy, take that uniform off right now. And they would say no. off right now. And they would say no. off right now. And they would say no. And their resistance was such a threat And their resistance was such a threat And their resistance was such a threat to this social order, this racial order to this social order, this racial order to this social order, this racial order that they would be particularly at risk that they would be particularly at risk that they would be particularly at risk of victimization.

of victimization. of victimization. And so I I think you can look at that in And so I I think you can look at that in And so I I think you can look at that in terms of proximity and I think that is a terms of proximity and I think that is a terms of proximity and I think that is a very real framework. very real framework. very real framework. But it's also worth kind of stepping out But it's also worth kind of stepping out But it's also worth kind of stepping out from that. How did that happen? Well, from that. How did that happen? Well, from that. How did that happen? Well, that's where I think this narrative that's where I think this narrative that's where I think this narrative becomes so important. And part of what becomes so important. And part of what becomes so important. And part of what I'm saying is yes, I'm saying is yes, I'm saying is yes, uh it is not good for you to enslave uh it is not good for you to enslave uh it is not good for you to enslave another human being. I I don't want you another human being. I I don't want you another human being. I I don't want you to do that um because I care about you. to do that um because I care about you. to do that um because I care about you. I think it will corrupt your heart, your I think it will corrupt your heart, your I think it will corrupt your heart, your soul. It will limit your capacity to soul. It will limit your capacity to soul. It will limit your capacity to love. It is not healthy to say to love. It is not healthy to say to love. It is not healthy to say to people, you can't love that person people, you can't love that person people, you can't love that person because of their color. It is not good because of their color. It is not good because of their color. It is not good for you to take your children to a for you to take your children to a for you to take your children to a lynching, which many families did, and lynching, which many families did, and lynching, which many families did, and let them watch a black man being let them watch a black man being let them watch a black man being brutalized and mutilated. It's not good brutalized and mutilated. It's not good brutalized and mutilated. It's not good for them. You're going to create an for them. You're going to create an for them. You're going to create an unhealthy relationship to life. And unhealthy relationship to life. And unhealthy relationship to life. And that's why I do see this as an effort to that's why I do see this as an effort to that's why I do see this as an effort to liberate everybody, to uplift everybody, liberate everybody, to uplift everybody, liberate everybody, to uplift everybody, not just the people who have kind of not just the people who have kind of not just the people who have kind of disproportionately borne the burden of disproportionately borne the burden of disproportionately borne the burden of this bigotry, but everybody.

this bigotry, but everybody. this bigotry, but everybody. >> There's a picture right next to us of a >> There's a picture right next to us of a >> There's a picture right next to us of a bunch of white families staring at the bunch of white families staring at the bunch of white families staring at the feet of a lynched man and that some of feet of a lynched man and that some of feet of a lynched man and that some of the children are in ties. the children are in ties. the children are in ties. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. They they dress them up for the >> Right. They they dress them up for the >> Right. They they dress them up for the occasion. occasion. occasion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was thinking as you said some of that >> I was thinking as you said some of that >> I was thinking as you said some of that about the word narrative. narrative about the word narrative. narrative about the word narrative. narrative somehow seems so somehow seems so somehow seems so thin for what it was, right? There's a thin for what it was, right? There's a thin for what it was, right? There's a narrative in a book, there's a narrative narrative in a book, there's a narrative narrative in a book, there's a narrative in a Pixar film in a Pixar film in a Pixar film >> that this wasn't just a story people >> that this wasn't just a story people >> that this wasn't just a story people were telling. It was a way that they were telling. It was a way that they were telling. It was a way that they were and were not able were and were not able were and were not able to to to register plain facts of the world in register plain facts of the world in register plain facts of the world in front of them. Which isn't to say it's front of them. Which isn't to say it's front of them. Which isn't to say it's not a narrative or not a story, but it not a narrative or not a story, but it not a narrative or not a story, but it it made me think about what has to it made me think about what has to it made me think about what has to happen for a story to penetrate so happen for a story to penetrate so happen for a story to penetrate so deeply that it is more powerful than deeply that it is more powerful than deeply that it is more powerful than your immediate reality is to you. I your immediate reality is to you. I your immediate reality is to you. I always think of Big Hart vivisecting always think of Big Hart vivisecting always think of Big Hart vivisecting animals and as they scream, right? And animals and as they scream, right? And animals and as they scream, right? And animals do scream if you cut them open animals do scream if you cut them open animals do scream if you cut them open while they're alive, while they're alive, while they're alive, >> saying they're not really feeling pain.

>> saying they're not really feeling pain. >> saying they're not really feeling pain. >> Those are just mechanical sounds. >> Those are just mechanical sounds. >> Those are just mechanical sounds. >> And one of the parts of the museum that >> And one of the parts of the museum that >> And one of the parts of the museum that I really spent a lot of time in were the I really spent a lot of time in were the I really spent a lot of time in were the ads to sell slaves. And the reason I ads to sell slaves. And the reason I ads to sell slaves. And the reason I found myself found myself found myself just reading more and more and more of just reading more and more and more of just reading more and more and more of them is that there are moment when you them is that there are moment when you them is that there are moment when you saw something a dissonance breaking saw something a dissonance breaking saw something a dissonance breaking through. Right? We talk about narrative, through. Right? We talk about narrative, through. Right? We talk about narrative, but there's also the power of but there's also the power of but there's also the power of self-interest self-interest self-interest >> and of interest. And as you read these >> and of interest. And as you read these >> and of interest. And as you read these and there's a a wall of them in the and there's a a wall of them in the and there's a a wall of them in the museum, the slaves are the people are museum, the slaves are the people are museum, the slaves are the people are described as able to learn anything, described as able to learn anything, described as able to learn anything, completely trustworthy of a great completely trustworthy of a great completely trustworthy of a great family, right? They they read almost family, right? They they read almost family, right? They they read almost like college endorsement letters like college endorsement letters like college endorsement letters because they're trying to get the because they're trying to get the because they're trying to get the highest price for them. Yeah. highest price for them. Yeah. highest price for them. Yeah. >> And so on the one hand there's this >> And so on the one hand there's this >> And so on the one hand there's this narrative, this story of brutishness, of narrative, this story of brutishness, of narrative, this story of brutishness, of subhumanity, of incapacity, and then subhumanity, of incapacity, and then subhumanity, of incapacity, and then it's Peter is a master brick layer and it's Peter is a master brick layer and it's Peter is a master brick layer and and you see something happening that and you see something happening that and you see something happening that what is known but can't be admitted.

what is known but can't be admitted. what is known but can't be admitted. >> Yeah. Well, I I I think you're >> Yeah. Well, I I I think you're >> Yeah. Well, I I I think you're absolutely right that the reality of absolutely right that the reality of absolutely right that the reality of being with another human being, seeing being with another human being, seeing being with another human being, seeing another person's humanity is always another person's humanity is always another person's humanity is always going to emerge in ways that are going to emerge in ways that are going to emerge in ways that are powerful. You know, I grew up in powerful. You know, I grew up in powerful. You know, I grew up in segregation. There were no but for Brown segregation. There were no but for Brown segregation. There were no but for Brown versus Board of Education. I would have versus Board of Education. I would have versus Board of Education. I would have had a life where there was no engagement had a life where there was no engagement had a life where there was no engagement with people who are white. But because with people who are white. But because with people who are white. But because of that decision, lawyers came into our of that decision, lawyers came into our of that decision, lawyers came into our community, made them open up the public community, made them open up the public community, made them open up the public schools, and I began interacting with schools, and I began interacting with schools, and I began interacting with white kids, and they began interacting white kids, and they began interacting white kids, and they began interacting with me. And by the end of with me. And by the end of with me. And by the end of [clears throat] high school, gosh, they [clears throat] high school, gosh, they [clears throat] high school, gosh, they elected me to be the president of the elected me to be the president of the elected me to be the president of the student body, which would have been student body, which would have been student body, which would have been inconceivable, not because I was inconceivable, not because I was inconceivable, not because I was particularly special, but just because particularly special, but just because particularly special, but just because we were able to get to a place of we were able to get to a place of we were able to get to a place of relationship. relationship. relationship. And I I say that because when you think And I I say that because when you think And I I say that because when you think about the harm done by segregation, we about the harm done by segregation, we about the harm done by segregation, we never focus on what it did to our never focus on what it did to our never focus on what it did to our understanding of who we are. I mean, I understanding of who we are. I mean, I understanding of who we are. I mean, I think about the lives of most Americans think about the lives of most Americans think about the lives of most Americans in the 20th century. There were very few in the 20th century. There were very few in the 20th century. There were very few places where people had integrated, places where people had integrated, places where people had integrated, racially integrated lives. And now racially integrated lives. And now racially integrated lives. And now what's happened is we're seeing that what's happened is we're seeing that what's happened is we're seeing that replicated again. Our public schools in replicated again. Our public schools in replicated again. Our public schools in Montgomery are racially segregated. The Montgomery are racially segregated. The Montgomery are racially segregated. The public schools are 76% public schools are 76% public schools are 76% black. White parents didn't want their black. White parents didn't want their black. White parents didn't want their kids going to school with black kids kids going to school with black kids kids going to school with black kids after Brown. And so they left and after Brown. And so they left and after Brown. And so they left and started creating private schools and started creating private schools and started creating private schools and charter schools and and that separation

charter schools and and that separation charter schools and and that separation has continued. And that's the tragedy of has continued. And that's the tragedy of has continued. And that's the tragedy of the narrative that keeps us apart. I I the narrative that keeps us apart. I I the narrative that keeps us apart. I I mean when you really get to know a mean when you really get to know a mean when you really get to know a person I mean again I see this in my person I mean again I see this in my person I mean again I see this in my legal work and a lot of what I'm trying legal work and a lot of what I'm trying legal work and a lot of what I'm trying to do in this space has been informed by to do in this space has been informed by to do in this space has been informed by that. I've had correctional officers that. I've had correctional officers that. I've had correctional officers come up to me with tears in their eyes come up to me with tears in their eyes come up to me with tears in their eyes uh when one of my clients is getting uh when one of my clients is getting uh when one of my clients is getting close to an execution date and say, close to an execution date and say, close to an execution date and say, "Please, please save this man. He's a "Please, please save this man. He's a "Please, please save this man. He's a good person. He doesn't deserve this." good person. He doesn't deserve this." good person. He doesn't deserve this." They wouldn't be able to testify to that They wouldn't be able to testify to that They wouldn't be able to testify to that in court. If I asked them for an in court. If I asked them for an in court. If I asked them for an affidavit, they wouldn't be able to do affidavit, they wouldn't be able to do affidavit, they wouldn't be able to do that because they would lose their job. that because they would lose their job. that because they would lose their job. But it was a genuine understanding. This But it was a genuine understanding. This But it was a genuine understanding. This this is a human being whose life has this is a human being whose life has this is a human being whose life has meaning and purpose and value. He's not meaning and purpose and value. He's not meaning and purpose and value. He's not someone who's beyond hope, beyond someone who's beyond hope, beyond someone who's beyond hope, beyond redemption. And it wasn't even about redemption. And it wasn't even about redemption. And it wasn't even about innocence or guilt. It was about what innocence or guilt. It was about what innocence or guilt. It was about what they observed. they observed. they observed. So I I do think that dissonance what you So I I do think that dissonance what you So I I do think that dissonance what you see in those ads is a dissonance that see in those ads is a dissonance that see in those ads is a dissonance that that was uh intentional that was uh intentional that was uh intentional uh that was uh sustained obviously by uh that was uh sustained obviously by uh that was uh sustained obviously by the economic benefit of saying something the economic benefit of saying something the economic benefit of saying something positive about this person that you're positive about this person that you're positive about this person that you're trying to sell. But you can see it trying to sell. But you can see it trying to sell. But you can see it throughout history. This brings us in throughout history. This brings us in throughout history. This brings us in way to the 250th to 1776.

way to the 250th to 1776. way to the 250th to 1776. You can see it in the founding fathers You can see it in the founding fathers You can see it in the founding fathers who many of them knew and left eloquent who many of them knew and left eloquent who many of them knew and left eloquent writings to the effect of slavery is a writings to the effect of slavery is a writings to the effect of slavery is a moral horror. moral horror. moral horror. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That God will judge this country for. >> That God will judge this country for. >> That God will judge this country for. And not only did they not abolish And not only did they not abolish And not only did they not abolish slavery upon the founding of the slavery upon the founding of the slavery upon the founding of the country, but they did not free their own country, but they did not free their own country, but they did not free their own slaves. And that's where I think there's slaves. And that's where I think there's slaves. And that's where I think there's something interesting in this question something interesting in this question something interesting in this question of in some ways it almost takes us off of in some ways it almost takes us off of in some ways it almost takes us off the hook then and now to say that the the hook then and now to say that the the hook then and now to say that the problem was problem was problem was everyone believed a story that wasn't everyone believed a story that wasn't everyone believed a story that wasn't true because many people knew the story true because many people knew the story true because many people knew the story wasn't true or they believed multiple wasn't true or they believed multiple wasn't true or they believed multiple stories at one time. stories at one time. stories at one time. But it's sometimes hard, costly to act But it's sometimes hard, costly to act But it's sometimes hard, costly to act upon what you know is true. I mean, you upon what you know is true. I mean, you upon what you know is true. I mean, you don't have to take away from the don't have to take away from the don't have to take away from the brilliance of the founders or the brilliance of the founders or the brilliance of the founders or the morality in other dimensions morality in other dimensions morality in other dimensions >> or what they gifted unto the world to >> or what they gifted unto the world to >> or what they gifted unto the world to say that actually it's a profound say that actually it's a profound say that actually it's a profound warning to read their writings on this warning to read their writings on this warning to read their writings on this >> and then recognize what they did not do.

>> and then recognize what they did not do. >> and then recognize what they did not do. >> Absolutely. And that's why exploring >> Absolutely. And that's why exploring >> Absolutely. And that's why exploring what they did not do is as important as what they did not do is as important as what they did not do is as important as exploring what they did, understanding exploring what they did, understanding exploring what they did, understanding what they did. And to not reckon with what they did. And to not reckon with what they did. And to not reckon with what they did not do, it's not just what they did not do, it's not just what they did not do, it's not just dishonest, it's misleading. It will dishonest, it's misleading. It will dishonest, it's misleading. It will allow you to believe that greatness allow you to believe that greatness allow you to believe that greatness uh can be achieved without completeness, uh can be achieved without completeness, uh can be achieved without completeness, without without without >> something that's consistent. And I just >> something that's consistent. And I just >> something that's consistent. And I just think again it ends up being unhealthy. think again it ends up being unhealthy. think again it ends up being unhealthy. I think about people I know super I think about people I know super I think about people I know super talented, incredibly talented, and I talented, incredibly talented, and I talented, incredibly talented, and I could talk forever about how unique and could talk forever about how unique and could talk forever about how unique and skilled and talented they are as a skilled and talented they are as a skilled and talented they are as a musician, as an athlete, but I also know musician, as an athlete, but I also know musician, as an athlete, but I also know that they are suffering, that they are that they are suffering, that they are that they are suffering, that they are struggling, that they're dealing with struggling, that they're dealing with struggling, that they're dealing with mental health challenges, emotional mental health challenges, emotional mental health challenges, emotional challenges, depression. challenges, depression. challenges, depression. And if I don't talk about that, if they And if I don't talk about that, if they And if I don't talk about that, if they don't talk about that, their talents don't talk about that, their talents don't talk about that, their talents will not define them, they'll be will not define them, they'll be will not define them, they'll be overwhelmed by these other things. And overwhelmed by these other things. And overwhelmed by these other things. And so that's why I feel like it's unhealthy so that's why I feel like it's unhealthy so that's why I feel like it's unhealthy to not acknowledge the tensions, the to not acknowledge the tensions, the to not acknowledge the tensions, the contradictions, the failures of the contradictions, the failures of the contradictions, the failures of the founding fathers and the failures of our founding fathers and the failures of our founding fathers and the failures of our largest society.

largest society. largest society. >> Let me have you expand on that because I >> Let me have you expand on that because I >> Let me have you expand on that because I think that's a very profound statement think that's a very profound statement think that's a very profound statement that and and I want to remember how you that and and I want to remember how you that and and I want to remember how you said it that greatness is not possible said it that greatness is not possible said it that greatness is not possible without completeness. Is that what you without completeness. Is that what you without completeness. Is that what you said? said? said? >> Yeah. I think many people have the fear >> Yeah. I think many people have the fear >> Yeah. I think many people have the fear that what you will have if you confront that what you will have if you confront that what you will have if you confront if you admit if you look straight at if you admit if you look straight at if you admit if you look straight at your failings your country's failings is your failings your country's failings is your failings your country's failings is not completeness so much as a kind of not completeness so much as a kind of not completeness so much as a kind of overwhelm that you will be overwhelmed overwhelm that you will be overwhelmed overwhelm that you will be overwhelmed by the darkness. by the darkness. by the darkness. >> Yeah. I I >> Yeah. I I >> Yeah. I I >> tell me why you don't believe that. >> tell me why you don't believe that. >> tell me why you don't believe that. Well, I just I I don't I think we have Well, I just I I don't I think we have Well, I just I I don't I think we have too many examples of that not happening too many examples of that not happening too many examples of that not happening to fear that it that it will happen to to fear that it that it will happen to to fear that it that it will happen to us. I mean, you know, a lot of what I'm us. I mean, you know, a lot of what I'm us. I mean, you know, a lot of what I'm doing here came out of going to South doing here came out of going to South doing here came out of going to South Africa and visiting the apartheid Africa and visiting the apartheid Africa and visiting the apartheid museum. And to get into that museum, you museum. And to get into that museum, you museum. And to get into that museum, you get a ticket and the ticket will get a ticket and the ticket will get a ticket and the ticket will arbitrarily assign you a label that says arbitrarily assign you a label that says arbitrarily assign you a label that says white or colored. and you have to go white or colored. and you have to go white or colored. and you have to go through the door that your ticket through the door that your ticket through the door that your ticket corresponds with. So before you even go corresponds with. So before you even go corresponds with. So before you even go into that museum, you have to deal with into that museum, you have to deal with into that museum, you have to deal with the discomfort of participating the discomfort of participating the discomfort of participating with apartheid and I went with three or with apartheid and I went with three or with apartheid and I went with three or four Swedish lawyers. We're all at some four Swedish lawyers. We're all at some four Swedish lawyers. We're all at some human rights conference. We all bought human rights conference. We all bought human rights conference. We all bought tickets. We all got tickets that said tickets. We all got tickets that said tickets. We all got tickets that said white. And when they realized that and white. And when they realized that and white. And when they realized that and they saw the doors, they immediately they saw the doors, they immediately they saw the doors, they immediately stopped and said, "Oh no." And they went stopped and said, "Oh no." And they went stopped and said, "Oh no." And they went back to the black woman working at the back to the black woman working at the back to the black woman working at the counter and said, "Yeah, we don't want counter and said, "Yeah, we don't want counter and said, "Yeah, we don't want the white ticket. we want the other the white ticket. we want the other the white ticket. we want the other ticket and she wouldn't sell it to him.

ticket and she wouldn't sell it to him. ticket and she wouldn't sell it to him. But that sense of discomfort before you But that sense of discomfort before you But that sense of discomfort before you even go in and when you go to the even go in and when you go to the even go in and when you go to the >> What did it feel like for you? >> What did it feel like for you? >> What did it feel like for you? >> Well, I walked right through the white >> Well, I walked right through the white >> Well, I walked right through the white door. It didn't bother me. I mean, you door. It didn't bother me. I mean, you door. It didn't bother me. I mean, you know, because I understood what they know, because I understood what they know, because I understood what they were trying to do. Uh they were trying were trying to do. Uh they were trying were trying to do. Uh they were trying to get you to imagine to appreciate to to get you to imagine to appreciate to to get you to imagine to appreciate to to kind of engage with the arbitrariness to kind of engage with the arbitrariness to kind of engage with the arbitrariness of that regime. But there were rooms in of that regime. But there were rooms in of that regime. But there were rooms in that museum where there were nooes that museum where there were nooes that museum where there were nooes hanging from the wall. I was like, "Oh hanging from the wall. I was like, "Oh hanging from the wall. I was like, "Oh my god." And when I left, I thought, "We my god." And when I left, I thought, "We my god." And when I left, I thought, "We don't have any museums like this in don't have any museums like this in don't have any museums like this in America." Then I went to Berlin. America." Then I went to Berlin. America." Then I went to Berlin. And in Berlin, I was blown away. You And in Berlin, I was blown away. You And in Berlin, I was blown away. You can't go 200 meters in Berlin without can't go 200 meters in Berlin without can't go 200 meters in Berlin without seeing the Staplestein and the markers seeing the Staplestein and the markers seeing the Staplestein and the markers and the monuments dedicated to the and the monuments dedicated to the and the monuments dedicated to the victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust Memorial sits in the center of Berlin. Memorial sits in the center of Berlin. Memorial sits in the center of Berlin. There's like a dozen museums dealing There's like a dozen museums dealing There's like a dozen museums dealing with the horrors of the Holocaust. Just with the horrors of the Holocaust. Just with the horrors of the Holocaust. Just in Berlin, there were no Adolf Hitler in Berlin, there were no Adolf Hitler in Berlin, there were no Adolf Hitler statues. There were no monuments to the statues. There were no monuments to the statues. There were no monuments to the perpetrators of the Holocaust. In perpetrators of the Holocaust. In perpetrators of the Holocaust. In Germany, you're required to understand Germany, you're required to understand Germany, you're required to understand the Holocaust before you graduate from the Holocaust before you graduate from the Holocaust before you graduate from high school. You can't graduate without high school. You can't graduate without high school. You can't graduate without a detailed understanding of that a detailed understanding of that a detailed understanding of that history. And they don't have people history. And they don't have people history. And they don't have people saying, "Oh, we can't teach our kids saying, "Oh, we can't teach our kids saying, "Oh, we can't teach our kids about the Holocaust. That might make about the Holocaust. That might make about the Holocaust. That might make them feel uncomfortable or ashamed."

them feel uncomfortable or ashamed." them feel uncomfortable or ashamed." It's the opposite. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. >> Well, now they do have some people >> Well, now they do have some people >> Well, now they do have some people saying that. And I think this is saying that. And I think this is saying that. And I think this is important because when we I remember our important because when we I remember our important because when we I remember our earlier conversations and you tell me earlier conversations and you tell me earlier conversations and you tell me about Berlin about Berlin about Berlin >> and in the decade or so that has passed >> and in the decade or so that has passed >> and in the decade or so that has passed since then, you know, maybe a bit less, since then, you know, maybe a bit less, since then, you know, maybe a bit less, we've seen the rise of the AFD. And at we've seen the rise of the AFD. And at we've seen the rise of the AFD. And at the the nuclear core of the AFD, I mean, the the nuclear core of the AFD, I mean, the the nuclear core of the AFD, I mean, they have an argument about immigration they have an argument about immigration they have an argument about immigration and many other things, but much of their and many other things, but much of their and many other things, but much of their appeal is about restoring German pride, appeal is about restoring German pride, appeal is about restoring German pride, allowing Germans to be proud of who they allowing Germans to be proud of who they allowing Germans to be proud of who they are. are. are. There is no vaccine against bigotry and There is no vaccine against bigotry and There is no vaccine against bigotry and politics of fear and anger. Nothing will politics of fear and anger. Nothing will politics of fear and anger. Nothing will insulate us from tensions. And you see insulate us from tensions. And you see insulate us from tensions. And you see that in Germany, you see that in Europe. that in Germany, you see that in Europe. that in Germany, you see that in Europe. But when you think about Germany, the But when you think about Germany, the But when you think about Germany, the villain of the 20th century and where it villain of the 20th century and where it villain of the 20th century and where it stands today in the 21st century. In stands today in the 21st century. In stands today in the 21st century. In less than 80 years, that nation has less than 80 years, that nation has less than 80 years, that nation has transformed itself. And it wasn't transformed itself. And it wasn't transformed itself. And it wasn't immediate. If you talked about the immediate. If you talked about the immediate. If you talked about the Holocaust, you'd get booed. you'd get Holocaust, you'd get booed. you'd get Holocaust, you'd get booed. you'd get you'd get shouted at. But what has you'd get shouted at. But what has you'd get shouted at. But what has happened there in the last 80 years I happened there in the last 80 years I happened there in the last 80 years I think is quite remarkable and we need to think is quite remarkable and we need to think is quite remarkable and we need to understand that before we say oh we understand that before we say oh we understand that before we say oh we can't talk about that in the United can't talk about that in the United can't talk about that in the United States because we'll get defined by that States because we'll get defined by that States because we'll get defined by that we'll be overwhelmed by that. The we'll be overwhelmed by that. The we'll be overwhelmed by that. The principal difference of course is that principal difference of course is that principal difference of course is that in South Africa there was a change in in South Africa there was a change in in South Africa there was a change in power. A black majority took over and power. A black majority took over and power. A black majority took over and they were insisting on reckoning with they were insisting on reckoning with they were insisting on reckoning with the history of of apartheid. The Nazis the history of of apartheid. The Nazis the history of of apartheid. The Nazis lost the war. Had the Nazis won the war, lost the war. Had the Nazis won the war, lost the war. Had the Nazis won the war, we wouldn't see the Germany that we see.

we wouldn't see the Germany that we see. we wouldn't see the Germany that we see. And in the United States, there hasn't And in the United States, there hasn't And in the United States, there hasn't been a shift in power. The people who been a shift in power. The people who been a shift in power. The people who benefited from enslavement didn't have benefited from enslavement didn't have benefited from enslavement didn't have to forfeit all that they benefited from. to forfeit all that they benefited from. to forfeit all that they benefited from. The people who actually fought against The people who actually fought against The people who actually fought against the United States were quickly restored the United States were quickly restored the United States were quickly restored into power and didn't have to give up into power and didn't have to give up into power and didn't have to give up anything as a result of that. The people anything as a result of that. The people anything as a result of that. The people who lynched others were never held who lynched others were never held who lynched others were never held accountable. Even in the 1960s, the accountable. Even in the 1960s, the accountable. Even in the 1960s, the moment we're in now, is a is, I think, a moment we're in now, is a is, I think, a moment we're in now, is a is, I think, a consequence because we never required consequence because we never required consequence because we never required accountability. We didn't even require accountability. We didn't even require accountability. We didn't even require people who disenfranchised black people people who disenfranchised black people people who disenfranchised black people for a century to say, "I'm sorry. I'm for a century to say, "I'm sorry. I'm for a century to say, "I'm sorry. I'm wrong. We shouldn't have done that." wrong. We shouldn't have done that." wrong. We shouldn't have done that." Most of them voted against the Voting Most of them voted against the Voting Most of them voted against the Voting Rights Act in 1965. These southern Rights Act in 1965. These southern Rights Act in 1965. These southern Congress members, and they just began Congress members, and they just began Congress members, and they just began scheming for ways to maintain scheming for ways to maintain scheming for ways to maintain political disenfranchisement. It's the political disenfranchisement. It's the political disenfranchisement. It's the absence of reckoning that allows the absence of reckoning that allows the absence of reckoning that allows the problems that contribute to these issues problems that contribute to these issues problems that contribute to these issues to continue. It's interesting to me how to continue. It's interesting to me how to continue. It's interesting to me how much the memorials in other places much the memorials in other places much the memorials in other places informed what you have done here. And informed what you have done here. And informed what you have done here. And being here, I thought a lot about being here, I thought a lot about being here, I thought a lot about Holocaust museums, Holocaust museums, Holocaust museums, >> concentration camps, right? That that >> concentration camps, right? That that >> concentration camps, right? That that exists very much in my family's history.

exists very much in my family's history. exists very much in my family's history. And I had a similar feeling here that I And I had a similar feeling here that I And I had a similar feeling here that I have there that confronting the have there that confronting the have there that confronting the Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust, it doesn't make me afraid of Germans. it doesn't make me afraid of Germans. it doesn't make me afraid of Germans. >> It makes me afraid of human beings. >> It makes me afraid of human beings. >> It makes me afraid of human beings. that confronting that confronting that confronting that photo of people in their Sunday that photo of people in their Sunday that photo of people in their Sunday best looking at a man hanging from a best looking at a man hanging from a best looking at a man hanging from a tree doesn't make me afraid afraid of tree doesn't make me afraid afraid of tree doesn't make me afraid afraid of Americans Americans Americans or you know whatever county that might or you know whatever county that might or you know whatever county that might have happened in the people of that have happened in the people of that have happened in the people of that county. It makes me afraid of of human county. It makes me afraid of of human county. It makes me afraid of of human beings beings beings >> that what we are capable of is very easy >> that what we are capable of is very easy >> that what we are capable of is very easy for us to deny. for us to deny. for us to deny. >> Yeah. And it's also a mistake, I think, >> Yeah. And it's also a mistake, I think, >> Yeah. And it's also a mistake, I think, and to to assume that it's only what and to to assume that it's only what and to to assume that it's only what they are capable of. they are capable of. they are capable of. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm glad to >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm glad to >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm glad to hear you say that because that's the hear you say that because that's the hear you say that because that's the goal. You know, people will say, "Well, goal. You know, people will say, "Well, goal. You know, people will say, "Well, my people never enslaved anybody." As if my people never enslaved anybody." As if my people never enslaved anybody." As if somehow that exonerates them from living somehow that exonerates them from living somehow that exonerates them from living in a community where the hotels and the in a community where the hotels and the in a community where the hotels and the uh railroads and the business and the uh railroads and the business and the uh railroads and the business and the insurance, all of that was trafficking insurance, all of that was trafficking insurance, all of that was trafficking in the commerce of slavery. You didn't in the commerce of slavery. You didn't in the commerce of slavery. You didn't have to enslave someone to benefit from have to enslave someone to benefit from have to enslave someone to benefit from slavery. And so that's not the right slavery. And so that's not the right slavery. And so that's not the right framework. If you're looking for a framework. If you're looking for a framework. If you're looking for a personal exoneration in that way, that's personal exoneration in that way, that's personal exoneration in that way, that's not going to get us where we need to go.

not going to get us where we need to go. not going to get us where we need to go. We are succeeding if we can get people We are succeeding if we can get people We are succeeding if we can get people to think past the particulars of the to think past the particulars of the to think past the particulars of the moment, the particulars of the era, moment, the particulars of the era, moment, the particulars of the era, which is what a lot of people do when which is what a lot of people do when which is what a lot of people do when they tell you, "Don't talk about that. they tell you, "Don't talk about that. they tell you, "Don't talk about that. That's in the past. It doesn't matter That's in the past. It doesn't matter That's in the past. It doesn't matter anymore." They're trying to reduce it to anymore." They're trying to reduce it to anymore." They're trying to reduce it to a particular phenomena. Stop. Why are a particular phenomena. Stop. Why are a particular phenomena. Stop. Why are you talking about slavery? That happened you talking about slavery? That happened you talking about slavery? That happened a long time ago. a long time ago. a long time ago. I think if you truly appreciate the I think if you truly appreciate the I think if you truly appreciate the harms of slavery, if you truly harms of slavery, if you truly harms of slavery, if you truly appreciate the harms of lynching, if you appreciate the harms of lynching, if you appreciate the harms of lynching, if you truly get to the horrors and the harms truly get to the horrors and the harms truly get to the horrors and the harms of segregation, of segregation, of segregation, then you'll you'll begin to never want then you'll you'll begin to never want then you'll you'll begin to never want to tolerate abuse of power. You'll never to tolerate abuse of power. You'll never to tolerate abuse of power. You'll never want to exploit people who have less uh want to exploit people who have less uh want to exploit people who have less uh privilege. You'll you'll you'll begin to privilege. You'll you'll you'll begin to privilege. You'll you'll you'll begin to talk against hatred. And I think part of talk against hatred. And I think part of talk against hatred. And I think part of why I value making this a human story why I value making this a human story why I value making this a human story and recognizing the humanity of every and recognizing the humanity of every and recognizing the humanity of every person is because it stops mattering person is because it stops mattering person is because it stops mattering where you are in the story. You just where you are in the story. You just where you are in the story. You just know that that is wrong. There's not know that that is wrong. There's not know that that is wrong. There's not much in the museum about the much in the museum about the much in the museum about the abolitionists or about the Civil War. Uh abolitionists or about the Civil War. Uh abolitionists or about the Civil War. Uh there's a lot about enslavement, but there's a lot about enslavement, but there's a lot about enslavement, but Frederick Douglas is not absent, but Frederick Douglas is not absent, but Frederick Douglas is not absent, but he's not highly present.

he's not highly present. he's not highly present. um say nothing of Lincoln or um say nothing of Lincoln or um say nothing of Lincoln or sort of anything in that kind of vast sort of anything in that kind of vast sort of anything in that kind of vast movement that ended this horror movement that ended this horror movement that ended this horror and particularly the parts of it that and particularly the parts of it that and particularly the parts of it that did so when it seems so remote did so when it seems so remote did so when it seems so remote >> right when I read the biographies of >> right when I read the biographies of >> right when I read the biographies of Douglas or others Douglas or others Douglas or others >> and there's just such a long period I >> and there's just such a long period I >> and there's just such a long period I mean now we see it on the other side of mean now we see it on the other side of mean now we see it on the other side of the story the story the story >> but when that work was so unlikely >> but when that work was so unlikely >> but when that work was so unlikely Why? Why? Why? >> Well, if you ask some most people in >> Well, if you ask some most people in >> Well, if you ask some most people in this country, um, what do you know about this country, um, what do you know about this country, um, what do you know about slavery? They'll say, well, we know slavery? They'll say, well, we know slavery? They'll say, well, we know there was a civil war. Can you identify there was a civil war. Can you identify there was a civil war. Can you identify anybody who Frederick Douglas, anybody who Frederick Douglas, anybody who Frederick Douglas, >> maybe Harriet Tubman? >> maybe Harriet Tubman? >> maybe Harriet Tubman? Um, and it doesn't help them understand Um, and it doesn't help them understand Um, and it doesn't help them understand anything about slavery. To know that anything about slavery. To know that anything about slavery. To know that someone escaped and then did these someone escaped and then did these someone escaped and then did these remarkable things, that's an achievement remarkable things, that's an achievement remarkable things, that's an achievement narrative. Um, but I think it's narrative. Um, but I think it's narrative. Um, but I think it's misleading to reduce slavery to the misleading to reduce slavery to the misleading to reduce slavery to the story of abolitionists story of abolitionists story of abolitionists or to reduce slavery to the success of or to reduce slavery to the success of or to reduce slavery to the success of Frederick Douglas because what that does Frederick Douglas because what that does Frederick Douglas because what that does is actually allows you to avoid the pain is actually allows you to avoid the pain is actually allows you to avoid the pain and the harm and imagine that it created and the harm and imagine that it created and the harm and imagine that it created this opportunity for this great man to this opportunity for this great man to this opportunity for this great man to emerge. What you need to know about emerge. What you need to know about emerge. What you need to know about slavery was how cruel it was, how slavery was how cruel it was, how slavery was how cruel it was, how horrific it was, how how painful it was, horrific it was, how how painful it was, horrific it was, how how painful it was, the ways in which it distorted. I I and the ways in which it distorted. I I and the ways in which it distorted. I I and and and and most people haven't thought about what most people haven't thought about what most people haven't thought about what it was like to be a mother, an enslaved

it was like to be a mother, an enslaved it was like to be a mother, an enslaved mother, and to give birth to a child, mother, and to give birth to a child, mother, and to give birth to a child, maybe even as a product of rape, and maybe even as a product of rape, and maybe even as a product of rape, and have to decide, do I love this child or have to decide, do I love this child or have to decide, do I love this child or not? half the people I know are being not? half the people I know are being not? half the people I know are being sold away from their children or their sold away from their children or their sold away from their children or their children are being sold away from them. children are being sold away from them. children are being sold away from them. If I love this child, my heart's going If I love this child, my heart's going If I love this child, my heart's going to be broken, so maybe I shouldn't love to be broken, so maybe I shouldn't love to be broken, so maybe I shouldn't love this child so much because it's just too this child so much because it's just too this child so much because it's just too fragile. It's too uh likely that they'll fragile. It's too uh likely that they'll fragile. It's too uh likely that they'll be pulled away from me. And when you be pulled away from me. And when you be pulled away from me. And when you learn that most of these mothers chose learn that most of these mothers chose learn that most of these mothers chose to love despite the threat that they to love despite the threat that they to love despite the threat that they would be sold, despite the threat, the would be sold, despite the threat, the would be sold, despite the threat, the fact that this was a product of sexual fact that this was a product of sexual fact that this was a product of sexual violence and rape, you begin to see violence and rape, you begin to see violence and rape, you begin to see something different about that enslaved something different about that enslaved something different about that enslaved woman. You begin to understand something woman. You begin to understand something woman. You begin to understand something different about these people. And if you different about these people. And if you different about these people. And if you don't understand that, then you're going don't understand that, then you're going don't understand that, then you're going to misunderstand the nature of slavery. to misunderstand the nature of slavery. to misunderstand the nature of slavery. My great-grandfather was enslaved in My great-grandfather was enslaved in My great-grandfather was enslaved in Caroline County, Virginia. And even Caroline County, Virginia. And even Caroline County, Virginia. And even though he was enslaved and enslaved though he was enslaved and enslaved though he was enslaved and enslaved people could lose their life for trying people could lose their life for trying people could lose their life for trying to read or write. It was against the to read or write. It was against the to read or write. It was against the law. My great-grandfather learned to law. My great-grandfather learned to law. My great-grandfather learned to read or write as a teenager. He risked read or write as a teenager. He risked read or write as a teenager. He risked his life to learn to read or write as a his life to learn to read or write as a his life to learn to read or write as a teenager because he had a hope of teenager because he had a hope of teenager because he had a hope of freedom. This is the 1850s. He didn't freedom. This is the 1850s. He didn't freedom. This is the 1850s. He didn't know a civil war was coming, but he had know a civil war was coming, but he had know a civil war was coming, but he had a hope of freedom. And he learned to a hope of freedom. And he learned to a hope of freedom. And he learned to read or write. And my grandmother told read or write. And my grandmother told read or write. And my grandmother told me after emancipation, something I never me after emancipation, something I never me after emancipation, something I never talked about uh before, that my talked about uh before, that my talked about uh before, that my great-grandfather would read the great-grandfather would read the great-grandfather would read the newspaper to formerly enslaved people newspaper to formerly enslaved people newspaper to formerly enslaved people who he would invite to their house once who he would invite to their house once who he would invite to their house once a week so they would know what was going a week so they would know what was going a week so they would know what was going on. He would stand on the porch and read on. He would stand on the porch and read on. He would stand on the porch and read the newspaper from front to back and and

the newspaper from front to back and and the newspaper from front to back and and people who didn't know how to read or people who didn't know how to read or people who didn't know how to read or write would hear him read. And my write would hear him read. And my write would hear him read. And my grandmother said she loved the fact that grandmother said she loved the fact that grandmother said she loved the fact that her dad knew how to read. And she said, her dad knew how to read. And she said, her dad knew how to read. And she said, "When my dad started reading, I would "When my dad started reading, I would "When my dad started reading, I would push my siblings aside." And she said, push my siblings aside." And she said, push my siblings aside." And she said, "I would get near him and I would just "I would get near him and I would just "I would get near him and I would just wrap my arms around his leg." I said, wrap my arms around his leg." I said, wrap my arms around his leg." I said, "Mama, why'd you do that?" She said, "Mama, why'd you do that?" She said, "Mama, why'd you do that?" She said, "Well, I would wrap my arms around his "Well, I would wrap my arms around his "Well, I would wrap my arms around his leg because I wanted to learn to read, leg because I wanted to learn to read, leg because I wanted to learn to read, too." And she said, "I thought you learn too." And she said, "I thought you learn too." And she said, "I thought you learn to read by touching somebody while they to read by touching somebody while they to read by touching somebody while they read." And he taught my grandmother to read." And he taught my grandmother to read." And he taught my grandmother to read or write, and she would insist that read or write, and she would insist that read or write, and she would insist that we would read. I would sometimes go to we would read. I would sometimes go to we would read. I would sometimes go to visit her. She'd make these desserts visit her. She'd make these desserts visit her. She'd make these desserts that smelled so good. I'd go run. She'd that smelled so good. I'd go run. She'd that smelled so good. I'd go run. She'd say, "Come on, Brian, get this pie." and say, "Come on, Brian, get this pie." and say, "Come on, Brian, get this pie." and I'd go run and she'd be in front of the I'd go run and she'd be in front of the I'd go run and she'd be in front of the kitchen with a stack of books. She'd kitchen with a stack of books. She'd kitchen with a stack of books. She'd make you read for the dessert. But what make you read for the dessert. But what make you read for the dessert. But what I realized is that there was power in I realized is that there was power in I realized is that there was power in the hopes of those who'd come before me. the hopes of those who'd come before me. the hopes of those who'd come before me. I felt lifted up by generations of I felt lifted up by generations of I felt lifted up by generations of people who had struggled. And that's people who had struggled. And that's people who had struggled. And that's what we're trying to do with this what we're trying to do with this what we're trying to do with this history. We want to be very direct about history. We want to be very direct about history. We want to be very direct about the harms and the and the and the the harms and the and the and the the harms and the and the and the horrors of slavery. But we also want horrors of slavery. But we also want horrors of slavery. But we also want people to understand the resilience, the people to understand the resilience, the people to understand the resilience, the power, the strength, the courage, the power, the strength, the courage, the power, the strength, the courage, the character of people to love in the midst character of people to love in the midst character of people to love in the midst of agony. It then gives you something to of agony. It then gives you something to of agony. It then gives you something to celebrate in a new way. Uh when you get celebrate in a new way. Uh when you get celebrate in a new way. Uh when you get to the national monument and we decided to the national monument and we decided to the national monument and we decided to take the names of the four million to take the names of the four million to take the names of the four million who were emancipated, who for the first who were emancipated, who for the first who were emancipated, who for the first time in American history could have a time in American history could have a time in American history could have a surname that happened in 1870. It was surname that happened in 1870. It was surname that happened in 1870. It was the first time uh enslaved people in the first time uh enslaved people in the first time uh enslaved people in this country got to have a surname. But this country got to have a surname. But this country got to have a surname. But to now have those 122,000 names on that

to now have those 122,000 names on that to now have those 122,000 names on that monument that's 43 feet tall and 150 monument that's 43 feet tall and 150 monument that's 43 feet tall and 150 feet wide and to see the descendants of feet wide and to see the descendants of feet wide and to see the descendants of enslaved people in this country finally enslaved people in this country finally enslaved people in this country finally have a place to go where they can have a place to go where they can have a place to go where they can connect to their enslaved ancestors connect to their enslaved ancestors connect to their enslaved ancestors with pride for their capacity to with pride for their capacity to with pride for their capacity to survive, their capacity to love, their survive, their capacity to love, their survive, their capacity to love, their capacity to endure. I just think um is capacity to endure. I just think um is capacity to endure. I just think um is really important. We're trying to help really important. We're trying to help really important. We're trying to help people understand there's power in people understand there's power in people understand there's power in knowing who we are and what we've done. knowing who we are and what we've done. knowing who we are and what we've done. There's power in appreciating our There's power in appreciating our There's power in appreciating our capacity to overcome not just slavery capacity to overcome not just slavery capacity to overcome not just slavery and lynching and segregation but and lynching and segregation but and lynching and segregation but anything that diminishes us that pushes anything that diminishes us that pushes anything that diminishes us that pushes us away from these broad and beautiful us away from these broad and beautiful us away from these broad and beautiful ideas. ideas. ideas. And I really am energized by it. There's And I really am energized by it. There's And I really am energized by it. There's nothing that undid me nothing that undid me nothing that undid me >> across the museum the way the narratives >> across the museum the way the narratives >> across the museum the way the narratives of people's of slaves commitments to of people's of slaves commitments to of people's of slaves commitments to their families did. their families did. their families did. >> Absolutely.

>> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And over and over and over again, I >> And over and over and over again, I >> And over and over and over again, I would would would see the pictures. see the pictures. see the pictures. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or read the stories or read their words >> Or read the stories or read their words >> Or read the stories or read their words and think about and think about and think about >> my seven-year-old. >> my seven-year-old. >> my seven-year-old. >> Yeah. There's one in which a young kid >> Yeah. There's one in which a young kid >> Yeah. There's one in which a young kid the father who's being taken from him the father who's being taken from him the father who's being taken from him talks about him running and like trying talks about him running and like trying talks about him running and like trying to hit the chains around as if to break to hit the chains around as if to break to hit the chains around as if to break them. them. them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, or the um men and women parted >> You know, or the um men and women parted >> You know, or the um men and women parted from each other. from each other. from each other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, there and people's names are >> You know, there and people's names are >> You know, there and people's names are changed to go back to what you were changed to go back to what you were changed to go back to what you were saying about the names. When you're when saying about the names. When you're when saying about the names. When you're when the people you love are taken from you, the people you love are taken from you, the people you love are taken from you, >> you will very likely never see them >> you will very likely never see them >> you will very likely never see them again. again. again. >> So, not do I take nothing away from that >> So, not do I take nothing away from that >> So, not do I take nothing away from that heroism. I I actually found it to be the heroism. I I actually found it to be the heroism. I I actually found it to be the most affecting. Yeah. most affecting. Yeah. most affecting. Yeah. >> Right. The the commitment to the >> Right. The the commitment to the >> Right. The the commitment to the fundamental [snorts] nature of being a fundamental [snorts] nature of being a fundamental [snorts] nature of being a human being, which is loving and caring human being, which is loving and caring human being, which is loving and caring >> for yours. >> for yours. >> for yours. >> And there's nothing I found to be more >> And there's nothing I found to be more >> And there's nothing I found to be more indicative of like indicative of like indicative of like >> the way people turn themselves into >> the way people turn themselves into >> the way people turn themselves into monsters in the system than that they monsters in the system than that they monsters in the system than that they would do this to than that they would would do this to than that they would would do this to than that they would >> force people to advertise themselves on >> force people to advertise themselves on >> force people to advertise themselves on a slave block.

a slave block. a slave block. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then whip them for crying upon >> And then whip them for crying upon >> And then whip them for crying upon separation from those they love. Right. separation from those they love. Right. separation from those they love. Right. it it just it I I find it unimaginable. it it just it I I find it unimaginable. it it just it I I find it unimaginable. >> So when I ask about the abolitionists, I >> So when I ask about the abolitionists, I >> So when I ask about the abolitionists, I don't ask to reduce the story of slavery don't ask to reduce the story of slavery don't ask to reduce the story of slavery to to a narrative about them. But the to to a narrative about them. But the to to a narrative about them. But the reason I do ask about them and the reason I do ask about them and the reason I do ask about them and the reason I want to do it from a different reason I want to do it from a different reason I want to do it from a different angle is that you've been talking here angle is that you've been talking here angle is that you've been talking here about about about >> what it means to inhabit these moments >> what it means to inhabit these moments >> what it means to inhabit these moments and ask and ask and ask how could that be me? how could that be me? how could that be me? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? what it means to inhabit this >> Right? what it means to inhabit this >> Right? what it means to inhabit this moment and ask not just how could you moment and ask not just how could you moment and ask not just how could you identify with the man who is lynched, identify with the man who is lynched, identify with the man who is lynched, but what does it mean to identify with but what does it mean to identify with but what does it mean to identify with the people watching the man be lynched? the people watching the man be lynched? the people watching the man be lynched? But there's also something if you're But there's also something if you're But there's also something if you're thinking about how these stories lead thinking about how these stories lead thinking about how these stories lead you towards justice. you towards justice. you towards justice. What does it mean to commit yourself to What does it mean to commit yourself to What does it mean to commit yourself to that when it's not easy? When it's not a that when it's not easy? When it's not a that when it's not easy? When it's not a majoritarian position, when you don't majoritarian position, when you don't majoritarian position, when you don't see the civil war see the civil war see the civil war >> coming? >> coming? >> coming? >> Yeah. And yes, like the story of >> Yeah. And yes, like the story of >> Yeah. And yes, like the story of Frederick Douglas or Garrison or all Frederick Douglas or Garrison or all Frederick Douglas or Garrison or all these different people, it can be these different people, it can be these different people, it can be reduced down to cliche, but it's also reduced down to cliche, but it's also reduced down to cliche, but it's also not just cliche. I mean, the not just cliche. I mean, the not just cliche. I mean, the abolitionist movement, all these abolitionist movement, all these abolitionist movement, all these movements, they are their own incredible movements, they are their own incredible movements, they are their own incredible unlikely acts. So, I I understand why unlikely acts. So, I I understand why unlikely acts. So, I I understand why you didn't focus on in the museum, but you didn't focus on in the museum, but you didn't focus on in the museum, but how do you take it yourself?

how do you take it yourself? how do you take it yourself? >> Well, I just I I >> Well, I just I I >> Well, I just I I mean, I think it is an intentional mean, I think it is an intentional mean, I think it is an intentional choice. I think I think we've tended to make the I think we've tended to make the abolitionists abolitionists abolitionists the heroes of the anti-slavery movement the heroes of the anti-slavery movement the heroes of the anti-slavery movement that they were the leaders who won the that they were the leaders who won the that they were the leaders who won the struggle for emancipation. struggle for emancipation. struggle for emancipation. And I just think that's not And I just think that's not And I just think that's not complete. I even think it borders on complete. I even think it borders on complete. I even think it borders on dishonesty. dishonesty. dishonesty. I think the four million the 10 million I think the four million the 10 million I think the four million the 10 million people who were enslaved over 246 years people who were enslaved over 246 years people who were enslaved over 246 years and found a way to hold on to their and found a way to hold on to their and found a way to hold on to their humanity and the dignity. There's humanity and the dignity. There's humanity and the dignity. There's nothing more that contributes to nothing more that contributes to nothing more that contributes to abolition than to stay human when you're abolition than to stay human when you're abolition than to stay human when you're being treated as an enslaved person to being treated as an enslaved person to being treated as an enslaved person to hold on to your dignity when you're hold on to your dignity when you're hold on to your dignity when you're being denied your dignity. To hold on to being denied your dignity. To hold on to being denied your dignity. To hold on to your humanity when your humanity is your humanity when your humanity is your humanity when your humanity is being crushed. being crushed. being crushed. I I think they are the heroes of that I I think they are the heroes of that I I think they are the heroes of that story. They are the champions. And you story. They are the champions. And you story. They are the champions. And you could be in Boston writing in nice and could be in Boston writing in nice and could be in Boston writing in nice and polite things that others can read, but polite things that others can read, but polite things that others can read, but that's not the hard thing about enduring that's not the hard thing about enduring that's not the hard thing about enduring enslavement. It's not the hard thing.

enslavement. It's not the hard thing. enslavement. It's not the hard thing. It's not going to be the thing that gets It's not going to be the thing that gets It's not going to be the thing that gets us where we're trying to go. And so I us where we're trying to go. And so I us where we're trying to go. And so I don't have any don't have any don't have any um problems with all of those who did um problems with all of those who did um problems with all of those who did all that they did. I think we are not all that they did. I think we are not all that they did. I think we are not acknowledging acknowledging acknowledging the power, the strength, the the courage the power, the strength, the the courage the power, the strength, the the courage it took to endure those husbands and it took to endure those husbands and it took to endure those husbands and wives and children and siblings that wives and children and siblings that wives and children and siblings that spent their last nickels and dimes to spent their last nickels and dimes to spent their last nickels and dimes to find their loved ones after find their loved ones after find their loved ones after emancipation. You have to understand emancipation. You have to understand emancipation. You have to understand that heart if you really want to that heart if you really want to that heart if you really want to understand how did slavery end. And and understand how did slavery end. And and understand how did slavery end. And and similarly in the civil rights context, similarly in the civil rights context, similarly in the civil rights context, you know, I I I love Dr. King. I love you know, I I I love Dr. King. I love you know, I I I love Dr. King. I love Mrs. Parks. I had the privilege of Mrs. Parks. I had the privilege of Mrs. Parks. I had the privilege of getting to know. I love the names that getting to know. I love the names that getting to know. I love the names that are known by other people, are known by other people, are known by other people, but it's the cooks and the maids and the but it's the cooks and the maids and the but it's the cooks and the maids and the laborers who had to walk three miles laborers who had to walk three miles laborers who had to walk three miles every day to get to work cuz they didn't every day to get to work cuz they didn't every day to get to work cuz they didn't have a car, then walk three miles back have a car, then walk three miles back have a car, then walk three miles back to get home. It's Georgia Gilmore who to get home. It's Georgia Gilmore who to get home. It's Georgia Gilmore who was making food for other people because was making food for other people because was making food for other people because she knew that some people would never she knew that some people would never she knew that some people would never have time to eat. [snorts] It's these have time to eat. [snorts] It's these have time to eat. [snorts] It's these ordinary people doing extraordinary ordinary people doing extraordinary ordinary people doing extraordinary things. It's the 50,000 black people in things. It's the 50,000 black people in things. It's the 50,000 black people in this city, most of whom whose names will this city, most of whom whose names will this city, most of whom whose names will never be known again. Nothing but never be known again. Nothing but never be known again. Nothing but admiration for Frederick Douglas. But we admiration for Frederick Douglas. But we admiration for Frederick Douglas. But we actually use the words of William Wells actually use the words of William Wells actually use the words of William Wells Brown at Freedom Monument Sculpture Brown at Freedom Monument Sculpture Brown at Freedom Monument Sculpture Park, who was also like Douglas, someone Park, who was also like Douglas, someone Park, who was also like Douglas, someone who escaped slavery. But what he writes who escaped slavery. But what he writes who escaped slavery. But what he writes about is the pain of enslavement. He about is the pain of enslavement. He about is the pain of enslavement. He wants people to understand what it was wants people to understand what it was wants people to understand what it was like to hear his mother being whipped

like to hear his mother being whipped like to hear his mother being whipped when he had been pulled into the house when he had been pulled into the house when he had been pulled into the house to work inside the house, but his mother to work inside the house, but his mother to work inside the house, but his mother was still out in the field. He wants was still out in the field. He wants was still out in the field. He wants people to read about his heartbreak when people to read about his heartbreak when people to read about his heartbreak when he tried to escape and was caught. Those he tried to escape and was caught. Those he tried to escape and was caught. Those are the stories I think that are are the stories I think that are are the stories I think that are important to understanding this legacy. important to understanding this legacy. important to understanding this legacy. >> His story was very very powerful to read >> His story was very very powerful to read >> His story was very very powerful to read as it creates a sort of narrative as you as it creates a sort of narrative as you as it creates a sort of narrative as you move through the park. move through the park. move through the park. >> So he tells a story of escaping with his >> So he tells a story of escaping with his >> So he tells a story of escaping with his mother mother mother >> at one point >> at one point >> at one point >> and they're traveling and and >> and they're traveling and and >> and they're traveling and and they feel near they feel near they feel near >> to freedom. M >> to freedom. M >> to freedom. M >> it's a particularly difficult pillar to >> it's a particularly difficult pillar to >> it's a particularly difficult pillar to read because read because read because >> you can begin to feel >> you can begin to feel >> you can begin to feel >> that they're going to be caught and they >> that they're going to be caught and they >> that they're going to be caught and they are are are >> but the part that has stuck with me is >> but the part that has stuck with me is >> but the part that has stuck with me is they're caught by functionally bounty they're caught by functionally bounty they're caught by functionally bounty hunters hunters hunters and he's bound and they're taken and and and he's bound and they're taken and and and he's bound and they're taken and and they're being taken back but the they they're being taken back but the they they're being taken back but the they and the the hunters stop for the night and the the hunters stop for the night and the the hunters stop for the night somewhere to to spend the night and the somewhere to to spend the night and the somewhere to to spend the night and the people who hunted them, who captured people who hunted them, who captured people who hunted them, who captured this man and his mother and are going to this man and his mother and are going to this man and his mother and are going to bring them back to terrible punishment, bring them back to terrible punishment, bring them back to terrible punishment, maybe death, definitely bondage, maybe death, definitely bondage, maybe death, definitely bondage, >> take out a Bible >> take out a Bible >> take out a Bible and read from it to everybody that and read from it to everybody that and read from it to everybody that night.

night. night. >> And and he talks in that in in that >> And and he talks in that in in that >> And and he talks in that in in that recounting of it about, recounting of it about, recounting of it about, well, how is it that this person well, how is it that this person well, how is it that this person >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> imagines himself to be a Christian? And >> imagines himself to be a Christian? And >> imagines himself to be a Christian? And Christianity is so present in the Christianity is so present in the Christianity is so present in the museum. It is so present on all sides of museum. It is so present on all sides of museum. It is so present on all sides of the conflict of the civil rights the conflict of the civil rights the conflict of the civil rights movement, but also of the people movement, but also of the people movement, but also of the people fighting the civil rights movement, fighting the civil rights movement, fighting the civil rights movement, >> right? The KKK is a Christian >> right? The KKK is a Christian >> right? The KKK is a Christian organization. organization. organization. >> Um, it's so present in slavery. >> Um, it's so present in slavery. >> Um, it's so present in slavery. >> Even just from the perspective of story, >> Even just from the perspective of story, >> Even just from the perspective of story, how do you understand how do you understand how do you understand how the same book, [laughter] the same how the same book, [laughter] the same how the same book, [laughter] the same words words words can take such different forms? Well, I can take such different forms? Well, I can take such different forms? Well, I think again um Christianity when you have a lot of Christianity when you have a lot of power, when you have a lot of status can power, when you have a lot of status can power, when you have a lot of status can be corruptive. Uh be corruptive. Uh be corruptive. Uh and the gospels speak to this. They they and the gospels speak to this. They they and the gospels speak to this. They they they they basically say wealth and power they they basically say wealth and power they they basically say wealth and power and privilege is something that will and privilege is something that will and privilege is something that will make you a bad Christian. It will it make you a bad Christian. It will it make you a bad Christian. It will it will keep you away from the kingdom of will keep you away from the kingdom of will keep you away from the kingdom of God. And Unfortunately, God. And Unfortunately, God. And Unfortunately, um, in a nation as wealthy and powerful um, in a nation as wealthy and powerful um, in a nation as wealthy and powerful and privileged as our nation, there's and privileged as our nation, there's and privileged as our nation, there's just not as much emphasis on that. I just not as much emphasis on that. I just not as much emphasis on that. I actually think I would love I want I actually think I would love I want I actually think I would love I want I want everybody to come to our spaces but want everybody to come to our spaces but want everybody to come to our spaces but I want particularly Christians to come I want particularly Christians to come I want particularly Christians to come and I just want them to ask themselves

and I just want them to ask themselves and I just want them to ask themselves were those Christians on the right side were those Christians on the right side were those Christians on the right side not just of history but on the right not just of history but on the right not just of history but on the right side of theology of Christianity of side of theology of Christianity of side of theology of Christianity of faith who tried to justify and defend faith who tried to justify and defend faith who tried to justify and defend slavery. Similarly, slavery. Similarly, slavery. Similarly, when Christians were saying, "No, black when Christians were saying, "No, black when Christians were saying, "No, black people over here, white people over people over here, white people over people over here, white people over here." The the the biggest proponent of here." The the the biggest proponent of here." The the the biggest proponent of segregation, the loudest opponent of the segregation, the loudest opponent of the segregation, the loudest opponent of the Montgomery bus boycott was the pastor of Montgomery bus boycott was the pastor of Montgomery bus boycott was the pastor of the Baptist church here in Montgomery. the Baptist church here in Montgomery. the Baptist church here in Montgomery. Were they good Christians? Were they Were they good Christians? Were they Were they good Christians? Were they good believers? Or were they misled? Did good believers? Or were they misled? Did good believers? Or were they misled? Did something get between them and true something get between them and true something get between them and true Christianity? And if you ask that Christianity? And if you ask that Christianity? And if you ask that question and you have to say yes, it question and you have to say yes, it question and you have to say yes, it just prompts then these new questions just prompts then these new questions just prompts then these new questions for you, for how you function, how you for you, for how you function, how you for you, for how you function, how you believe. If we believe we are called to believe. If we believe we are called to believe. If we believe we are called to do justice and love mercy and walk do justice and love mercy and walk do justice and love mercy and walk humbly, do you think those things should humbly, do you think those things should humbly, do you think those things should be easy or do you think those things are be easy or do you think those things are be easy or do you think those things are going to be hard? I can tell you they're going to be hard? I can tell you they're going to be hard? I can tell you they're going to be hard. And so you have to going to be hard. And so you have to going to be hard. And so you have to prepare yourself to do something hard.

prepare yourself to do something hard. prepare yourself to do something hard. The good news is is that we have been The good news is is that we have been The good news is is that we have been empowered to do the hard thing because empowered to do the hard thing because empowered to do the hard thing because of our faith. I mean, I've always of our faith. I mean, I've always of our faith. I mean, I've always believed I had to believe things I believed I had to believe things I believed I had to believe things I haven't seen. I I mean, you know, nobody haven't seen. I I mean, you know, nobody haven't seen. I I mean, you know, nobody in my family had gone to college before. in my family had gone to college before. in my family had gone to college before. I had to believe that even though I I had to believe that even though I I had to believe that even though I hadn't seen it, I'd never met a lawyer. hadn't seen it, I'd never met a lawyer. hadn't seen it, I'd never met a lawyer. I had to believe I could be something I had to believe I could be something I had to believe I could be something I'd never seen. We came to Alabama in I'd never seen. We came to Alabama in I'd never seen. We came to Alabama in 1980s to represent people on death row. 1980s to represent people on death row. 1980s to represent people on death row. Everybody says, "You can't help anybody Everybody says, "You can't help anybody Everybody says, "You can't help anybody on death row in Alabama. You'll never on death row in Alabama. You'll never on death row in Alabama. You'll never win a case." We had to believe we could win a case." We had to believe we could win a case." We had to believe we could make a difference even though we hadn't make a difference even though we hadn't make a difference even though we hadn't seen it. And even today, I have to seen it. And even today, I have to seen it. And even today, I have to believe that there is something better believe that there is something better believe that there is something better waiting for us in America. It's not that waiting for us in America. It's not that waiting for us in America. It's not that hard to have hope. It's not that hard to hard to have hope. It's not that hard to hard to have hope. It's not that hard to believe that. I walk these streets of believe that. I walk these streets of believe that. I walk these streets of Montgomery knowing that the generation Montgomery knowing that the generation Montgomery knowing that the generation that came before me would put on their that came before me would put on their that came before me would put on their Sunday best. They'd go places to push Sunday best. They'd go places to push Sunday best. They'd go places to push for the right to vote. They'd get for the right to vote. They'd get for the right to vote. They'd get battered and bloodied and beaten while battered and bloodied and beaten while battered and bloodied and beaten while they were praying on their knees. and they were praying on their knees. and they were praying on their knees. and then they would go back home, wipe the then they would go back home, wipe the then they would go back home, wipe the blood off, pick their Bibles back up, blood off, pick their Bibles back up, blood off, pick their Bibles back up, and do it again. I stand on the and do it again. I stand on the and do it again. I stand on the shoulders of people who did so much more shoulders of people who did so much more shoulders of people who did so much more with so much less. And so, I just think with so much less. And so, I just think with so much less. And so, I just think that's where Christianity has power.

that's where Christianity has power. that's where Christianity has power. That's where faith has power. It doesn't That's where faith has power. It doesn't That's where faith has power. It doesn't just have to be Christianity. It's the just have to be Christianity. It's the just have to be Christianity. It's the ability to believe things that we ability to believe things that we ability to believe things that we haven't seen, to do things that haven't haven't seen, to do things that haven't haven't seen, to do things that haven't been done before. It is the engine that been done before. It is the engine that been done before. It is the engine that drives the power of faith. And that's drives the power of faith. And that's drives the power of faith. And that's what Dr. King and the civil rights what Dr. King and the civil rights what Dr. King and the civil rights community, I think, got so right. They community, I think, got so right. They community, I think, got so right. They knew that they could empower people who knew that they could empower people who knew that they could empower people who had lived lives rooted in that view to had lived lives rooted in that view to had lived lives rooted in that view to now challenge segregation, to challenge now challenge segregation, to challenge now challenge segregation, to challenge this racial order. This is my own view. this racial order. This is my own view. this racial order. This is my own view. But one thing I often think about is But one thing I often think about is But one thing I often think about is that that that spirituality, great spiritual teachers, spirituality, great spiritual teachers, spirituality, great spiritual teachers, mystics, they are unruly and they are mystics, they are unruly and they are mystics, they are unruly and they are disruptive. disruptive. disruptive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's true of Jesus. Yeah. >> It's true of Jesus. Yeah. >> It's true of Jesus. Yeah. >> True of any prophet you might want to >> True of any prophet you might want to >> True of any prophet you might want to name. name. name. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And religions over time, not every >> And religions over time, not every >> And religions over time, not every single one of them, not at all times, single one of them, not at all times, single one of them, not at all times, >> but they often come to prize order. >> but they often come to prize order. >> but they often come to prize order. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And spirituality often wants to reorder >> And spirituality often wants to reorder >> And spirituality often wants to reorder the world. And religions often want to the world. And religions often want to the world. And religions often want to maintain it order because they're built maintain it order because they're built maintain it order because they're built around the world as it is. And around the world as it is. And around the world as it is. And one of the places you saw that and you one of the places you saw that and you one of the places you saw that and you see it so often in the history of see it so often in the history of see it so often in the history of slavery of civil rights, but you have a slavery of civil rights, but you have a slavery of civil rights, but you have a recruiting bill from I believe the recruiting bill from I believe the recruiting bill from I believe the Citizens Council.

Citizens Council. Citizens Council. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which is, you know, a group in the South >> Which is, you know, a group in the South >> Which is, you know, a group in the South >> built to fight civil rights. And it's >> built to fight civil rights. And it's >> built to fight civil rights. And it's trying to convince other, you know, trying to convince other, you know, trying to convince other, you know, white citizens to give their $4, give white citizens to give their $4, give white citizens to give their $4, give their $6. their $6. their $6. >> And what it promises him isn't white >> And what it promises him isn't white >> And what it promises him isn't white supremacy. It's racial harmony. supremacy. It's racial harmony. supremacy. It's racial harmony. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It says, "We are here to maintain racial >> It says, "We are here to maintain racial >> It says, "We are here to maintain racial harmony in Selma." harmony in Selma." harmony in Selma." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That we if you work with us, we'll get >> That we if you work with us, we'll get >> That we if you work with us, we'll get you another decade of racial harmony you another decade of racial harmony you another decade of racial harmony >> in Selma. >> in Selma. >> in Selma. >> And the way that the status quo, the >> And the way that the status quo, the >> And the way that the status quo, the order of oppression can look like order of oppression can look like order of oppression can look like harmony to those. is it is not harming. harmony to those. is it is not harming. harmony to those. is it is not harming. You read histories of the civil rights You read histories of the civil rights You read histories of the civil rights act and civil rights uh activists are act and civil rights uh activists are act and civil rights uh activists are always called agitators. always called agitators. always called agitators. >> They're agitating things. >> They're agitating things. >> They're agitating things. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely >> Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely >> Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. If you think religion creates right. If you think religion creates right. If you think religion creates stability, if you think religion creates stability, if you think religion creates stability, if you think religion creates calm, if you if it if you think it calm, if you if it if you think it calm, if you if it if you think it creates order, then that will be your creates order, then that will be your creates order, then that will be your narrative. That will be the message that narrative. That will be the message that narrative. That will be the message that you try to give to people. And that's you try to give to people. And that's you try to give to people. And that's exactly what happened. So, the White exactly what happened. So, the White exactly what happened. So, the White Citizens Council in Montgomery was very Citizens Council in Montgomery was very Citizens Council in Montgomery was very small until the Montgomery bus boycott small until the Montgomery bus boycott small until the Montgomery bus boycott and it grew and it grew and it grew dramatically. The mayor wasn't a member, dramatically. The mayor wasn't a member, dramatically. The mayor wasn't a member, the police chief wasn't a member until the police chief wasn't a member until the police chief wasn't a member until the Montgomery bus boycott. But every the Montgomery bus boycott. But every the Montgomery bus boycott. But every month of that boycott, thousands and month of that boycott, thousands and month of that boycott, thousands and thousands more people started joining thousands more people started joining thousands more people started joining the White Citizens Council. All because the White Citizens Council. All because the White Citizens Council. All because black people were not riding the bus.

black people were not riding the bus. black people were not riding the bus. And they saw that as destabilizing. They And they saw that as destabilizing. They And they saw that as destabilizing. They saw that as and because Dr. King was saw that as and because Dr. King was saw that as and because Dr. King was articulating these things that people articulating these things that people articulating these things that people hadn't articulated before and he was hadn't articulated before and he was hadn't articulated before and he was challenging them. And when you listen to challenging them. And when you listen to challenging them. And when you listen to these speeches he gave, he would say at these speeches he gave, he would say at these speeches he gave, he would say at the mass meetings that we have to help the mass meetings that we have to help the mass meetings that we have to help our white brothers and sisters. He says our white brothers and sisters. He says our white brothers and sisters. He says because segregation is evil. because segregation is evil. because segregation is evil. >> We're living with the conditions of >> We're living with the conditions of >> We're living with the conditions of slavery and then later segregation. slavery and then later segregation. slavery and then later segregation. Many negroes lost faith in themselves. Many negroes lost faith in themselves. Many negroes lost faith in themselves. Many came to feel that perhaps Many came to feel that perhaps Many came to feel that perhaps they were less than human. they were less than human. they were less than human. Many came to feel that they were Many came to feel that they were Many came to feel that they were inferior. inferior. inferior. This, it seems to me, is the greatest This, it seems to me, is the greatest This, it seems to me, is the greatest tragedy of slavery, the greatest tragedy tragedy of slavery, the greatest tragedy tragedy of slavery, the greatest tragedy of segregation. Not merely what it does of segregation. Not merely what it does of segregation. Not merely what it does to the individual physically, but what to the individual physically, but what to the individual physically, but what it does to one psychologically. it does to one psychologically. it does to one psychologically. It scars the soul of the segregated as It scars the soul of the segregated as It scars the soul of the segregated as well as the segregator.

well as the segregator. well as the segregator. It gives the segregator a false sense of It gives the segregator a false sense of It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority superiority superiority while leaving the segregated with a while leaving the segregated with a while leaving the segregated with a false sense of inferiority. And this is false sense of inferiority. And this is false sense of inferiority. And this is exactly what happened. exactly what happened. exactly what happened. >> It was brilliant, but it was >> It was brilliant, but it was >> It was brilliant, but it was particularly enraging to the White particularly enraging to the White particularly enraging to the White Citizens Council because he was actually Citizens Council because he was actually Citizens Council because he was actually saying, "Hey, white people, I've got saying, "Hey, white people, I've got saying, "Hey, white people, I've got something to help you, too." And that's something to help you, too." And that's something to help you, too." And that's what made it so what made it so what made it so provocative because he was saying we provocative because he was saying we provocative because he was saying we need a new order. We need a new future. need a new order. We need a new future. need a new order. We need a new future. >> With this faith, we will be able to >> With this faith, we will be able to >> With this faith, we will be able to transform this pending cosmic energy transform this pending cosmic energy transform this pending cosmic energy into a creative storm of peace and into a creative storm of peace and into a creative storm of peace and brotherhood. With this faith, we will be brotherhood. With this faith, we will be brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to speed up the day when all of able to speed up the day when all of able to speed up the day when all of God's children, black men and white men, God's children, black men and white men, God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, Hindus and Muslims, theists Catholics, Hindus and Muslims, theists Catholics, Hindus and Muslims, theists and atheists will be able to join hands and atheists will be able to join hands and atheists will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the Holy Negro and sing in the words of the Holy Negro and sing in the words of the Holy Negro spiritual, free at last. Free at last.

spiritual, free at last. Free at last. spiritual, free at last. Free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last. And that's why both in Christianity and And that's why both in Christianity and And that's why both in Christianity and in a lot of religions, there's a message in a lot of religions, there's a message in a lot of religions, there's a message to the wealthy and the power and the to the wealthy and the power and the to the wealthy and the power and the privilege is woe to you wealthy. Woe to privilege is woe to you wealthy. Woe to privilege is woe to you wealthy. Woe to you privileged people. You have to think you privileged people. You have to think you privileged people. You have to think differently than your wealth and your differently than your wealth and your differently than your wealth and your privilege will push you to think. You privilege will push you to think. You privilege will push you to think. You have to think differently than your have to think differently than your have to think differently than your status will push you to think. And and status will push you to think. And and status will push you to think. And and that's I I think something that some that's I I think something that some that's I I think something that some people of faith are embracing and using people of faith are embracing and using people of faith are embracing and using in very powerful ways. And there's in very powerful ways. And there's in very powerful ways. And there's that's something that others are not. that's something that others are not. that's something that others are not. The civil rights movement, I feel it The civil rights movement, I feel it The civil rights movement, I feel it when I watch the videos here. Um I feel when I watch the videos here. Um I feel when I watch the videos here. Um I feel it when I read the histories of it. It it when I read the histories of it. It it when I read the histories of it. It is hard for me to believe it existed. is hard for me to believe it existed. is hard for me to believe it existed. >> And that's true for, as you were saying >> And that's true for, as you were saying >> And that's true for, as you were saying a minute ago, the names we associate a minute ago, the names we associate a minute ago, the names we associate with it. The Martin Luther King Jr.'s with it. The Martin Luther King Jr.'s with it. The Martin Luther King Jr.'s Rustin, Rustin, Rustin, but it's even more true for the people but it's even more true for the people but it's even more true for the people who showed up at marches who were never who showed up at marches who were never who showed up at marches who were never going to be written about going to be written about going to be written about >> and who did so knowing >> and who did so knowing >> and who did so knowing they might take a brick to the head.

they might take a brick to the head. they might take a brick to the head. There's a I think it's a picture in the There's a I think it's a picture in the There's a I think it's a picture in the museum and you just see a museum and you just see a museum and you just see a white man swinging a baseball bat at the white man swinging a baseball bat at the white man swinging a baseball bat at the back of a black woman. back of a black woman. back of a black woman. >> Yes. Yeah. and people who came day after >> Yes. Yeah. and people who came day after >> Yes. Yeah. and people who came day after day, you know, the people who decided to day, you know, the people who decided to day, you know, the people who decided to send their children send their children send their children into the teeth of Bull Connor, into the teeth of Bull Connor, into the teeth of Bull Connor, >> right, who chose to do that and that was >> right, who chose to do that and that was >> right, who chose to do that and that was very very controversial and the, you very very controversial and the, you very very controversial and the, you know, Martin Luther King Jr. and others know, Martin Luther King Jr. and others know, Martin Luther King Jr. and others were were were >> heavily criticized for it. >> heavily criticized for it. >> heavily criticized for it. >> It that >> It that >> It that and to say nothing of just the the bus and to say nothing of just the the bus and to say nothing of just the the bus boycott which went on not for a week or boycott which went on not for a week or boycott which went on not for a week or a month but nearly a year. a month but nearly a year. a month but nearly a year. >> Yeah. Over a year. Over a year. 382 >> Yeah. Over a year. Over a year. 382 >> Yeah. Over a year. Over a year. 382 days. days. days. >> And it >> And it >> And it it's almost a hard text because I think it's almost a hard text because I think it's almost a hard text because I think people look at it and the restraint people look at it and the restraint people look at it and the restraint and the love and the love and the love it doesn't feel right. I almost think it doesn't feel right. I almost think it doesn't feel right. I almost think it's easier to imagine yourself it's easier to imagine yourself it's easier to imagine yourself suffering or inflicting suffering, suffering or inflicting suffering, suffering or inflicting suffering, right? Like being a victim right? Like being a victim right? Like being a victim >> or being a perpetrator.

>> or being a perpetrator. >> or being a perpetrator. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Than to choose to absorb suffering >> Than to choose to absorb suffering >> Than to choose to absorb suffering >> with that kind of grace and restraint. >> with that kind of grace and restraint. >> with that kind of grace and restraint. >> Yeah. and and yeah, I wonder how you >> Yeah. and and yeah, I wonder how you >> Yeah. and and yeah, I wonder how you >> Yeah, I mean, I think the brilliance of >> Yeah, I mean, I think the brilliance of >> Yeah, I mean, I think the brilliance of that generation of leaders is that they that generation of leaders is that they that generation of leaders is that they knew that they didn't have the economic knew that they didn't have the economic knew that they didn't have the economic power, the military power, or the power, the military power, or the power, the military power, or the political power to force change. So, political power to force change. So, political power to force change. So, they had to use um the power they had. they had to use um the power they had. they had to use um the power they had. And there was a morality in And there was a morality in And there was a morality in um standing up against violence with um standing up against violence with um standing up against violence with nonviolence. nonviolence. nonviolence. Uh being well-dressed and disciplined in Uh being well-dressed and disciplined in Uh being well-dressed and disciplined in the face of all of this brutality when the face of all of this brutality when the face of all of this brutality when people were cussing and swearing at you. people were cussing and swearing at you. people were cussing and swearing at you. You were smiling, sending your children You were smiling, sending your children You were smiling, sending your children into um spaces where they would be fire into um spaces where they would be fire into um spaces where they would be fire hosed or uh menaced by dogs or beaten hosed or uh menaced by dogs or beaten hosed or uh menaced by dogs or beaten and brut brutalized. and brut brutalized. and brut brutalized. It was a profound It was a profound It was a profound unprecedented unprecedented unprecedented use of kind of moral power of use of kind of moral power of use of kind of moral power of um using uh humanity to confront the um using uh humanity to confront the um using uh humanity to confront the inhumity of those who abuse. It's hard, inhumity of those who abuse. It's hard, inhumity of those who abuse. It's hard, credibly difficult, but I think people credibly difficult, but I think people credibly difficult, but I think people had an appreciation that that's what it had an appreciation that that's what it had an appreciation that that's what it was going to take. When Dr. King gives was going to take. When Dr. King gives was going to take. When Dr. King gives the first speech at the first mass the first speech at the first mass the first speech at the first mass meeting and he's being very he's you meeting and he's being very he's you meeting and he's being very he's you know he's you know ornate with his know he's you know ornate with his know he's you know ornate with his language. He's got all of the flourishes

language. He's got all of the flourishes language. He's got all of the flourishes but he and he's being very methodical but he and he's being very methodical but he and he's being very methodical and he's saying in what happened to Rosa and he's saying in what happened to Rosa and he's saying in what happened to Rosa Parks but at some point after laying it Parks but at some point after laying it Parks but at some point after laying it all out what he says is but we're tired all out what he says is but we're tired all out what he says is but we're tired now and that's when everybody erupts. It now and that's when everybody erupts. It now and that's when everybody erupts. It was the It was the exhaustion of was the It was the exhaustion of was the It was the exhaustion of constantly dealing with constantly dealing with constantly dealing with the status quo, the humiliation, the the status quo, the humiliation, the the status quo, the humiliation, the degradation, the constant threats and degradation, the constant threats and degradation, the constant threats and menacing that people said, "We want our menacing that people said, "We want our menacing that people said, "We want our freedom and we want our freedom now." freedom and we want our freedom now." freedom and we want our freedom now." And most of them were prepared to die And most of them were prepared to die And most of them were prepared to die for their freedom. for their freedom. for their freedom. And in a lot of ways, And in a lot of ways, And in a lot of ways, I I appreciate that and I recognize I I appreciate that and I recognize I I appreciate that and I recognize that. I do because I'm in my 60s. I've that. I do because I'm in my 60s. I've that. I do because I'm in my 60s. I've been representing people on death row been representing people on death row been representing people on death row and children in courts for 40 years. and children in courts for 40 years. and children in courts for 40 years. I've been fighting I've been fighting I've been fighting um for a more just system. I want to end um for a more just system. I want to end um for a more just system. I want to end cruelty and abuse of people in prisons. cruelty and abuse of people in prisons. cruelty and abuse of people in prisons. I want all of those things. I'm a I want all of those things. I'm a I want all of those things. I'm a product of Brown versus Board of product of Brown versus Board of product of Brown versus Board of Education Education Education at a time when I don't think we could at a time when I don't think we could at a time when I don't think we could win Brown versus Board of Education. And win Brown versus Board of Education. And win Brown versus Board of Education. And I think we've retreated so much. And no I think we've retreated so much. And no I think we've retreated so much. And no matter what I do, no matter what I say, matter what I do, no matter what I say, matter what I do, no matter what I say, I will still go places in this country I will still go places in this country I will still go places in this country where I am presumed dangerous and guilty where I am presumed dangerous and guilty where I am presumed dangerous and guilty because of my color. I still have to because of my color. I still have to because of my color. I still have to navigate presumptions of incompetence navigate presumptions of incompetence navigate presumptions of incompetence because of my color. I still bear the because of my color. I still bear the because of my color. I still bear the burden when I'm stopped by the police to

burden when I'm stopped by the police to burden when I'm stopped by the police to make sure that nothing tragic and make sure that nothing tragic and make sure that nothing tragic and violent happens. violent happens. violent happens. and so do my nephews and nieces and and so do my nephews and nieces and and so do my nephews and nieces and their children. And it's continuing and their children. And it's continuing and their children. And it's continuing and it's continuing. And when you have to it's continuing. And when you have to it's continuing. And when you have to constantly navigate a presumption of constantly navigate a presumption of constantly navigate a presumption of dangerousness and guilt because of your dangerousness and guilt because of your dangerousness and guilt because of your color, when you have to constantly color, when you have to constantly color, when you have to constantly confront presumptions of incompetence, confront presumptions of incompetence, confront presumptions of incompetence, when you have to constantly bear the when you have to constantly bear the when you have to constantly bear the burden of other people's ignorance, it's burden of other people's ignorance, it's burden of other people's ignorance, it's exhausting. And when you get to a exhausting. And when you get to a exhausting. And when you get to a certain point, you say, "I want freedom, certain point, you say, "I want freedom, certain point, you say, "I want freedom, and I want freedom now." And to get to and I want freedom now." And to get to and I want freedom now." And to get to that something better, we're going to that something better, we're going to that something better, we're going to have to do some things differently. And have to do some things differently. And have to do some things differently. And I'm saying things I just never imagined I'm saying things I just never imagined I'm saying things I just never imagined I would say, but I'm saying them. I've I would say, but I'm saying them. I've I would say, but I'm saying them. I've decided recently that I am prepared to decided recently that I am prepared to decided recently that I am prepared to represent the 10 million black people represent the 10 million black people represent the 10 million black people who were enslaved for 246 years in this who were enslaved for 246 years in this who were enslaved for 246 years in this country. And when people try to deny country. And when people try to deny country. And when people try to deny their suffering and try to deny their uh their suffering and try to deny their uh their suffering and try to deny their uh humiliation and and distort their humiliation and and distort their humiliation and and distort their stories and minimize their pain and stories and minimize their pain and stories and minimize their pain and agony, I want to be their advocate. I agony, I want to be their advocate. I agony, I want to be their advocate. I want to stand up for them and say, "No, want to stand up for them and say, "No, want to stand up for them and say, "No, you need to understand this. You need to you need to understand this. You need to you need to understand this. You need to hear this." I want to represent the hear this." I want to represent the hear this." I want to represent the millions of black people who were forced millions of black people who were forced millions of black people who were forced to leave the American South because of to leave the American South because of to leave the American South because of terror violence. 6 million black people terror violence. 6 million black people terror violence. 6 million black people fled the American South and they left fled the American South and they left fled the American South and they left lands that they owned. They they gave up lands that they owned. They they gave up lands that they owned. They they gave up opportunities to create wealth for their opportunities to create wealth for their opportunities to create wealth for their children and grandchildren because of children and grandchildren because of children and grandchildren because of terror violence and our country's terror violence and our country's terror violence and our country's unwillingness to enforce the rule of unwillingness to enforce the rule of unwillingness to enforce the rule of law. And I want to represent them as law. And I want to represent them as law. And I want to represent them as they now continue to struggle with the they now continue to struggle with the they now continue to struggle with the economic consequences of that hardship.

economic consequences of that hardship. economic consequences of that hardship. I want to represent the people who had I want to represent the people who had I want to represent the people who had to deal with the humiliation and to deal with the humiliation and to deal with the humiliation and degradation of Jim Crow and segregation. degradation of Jim Crow and segregation. degradation of Jim Crow and segregation. Those signs that said white and colored, Those signs that said white and colored, Those signs that said white and colored, they weren't directions. They were they weren't directions. They were they weren't directions. They were assaults. They created real injuries. assaults. They created real injuries. assaults. They created real injuries. And that's why I'm committed to creating And that's why I'm committed to creating And that's why I'm committed to creating this era of truth and justice, truth and this era of truth and justice, truth and this era of truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and reconciliation, truth repair, truth and reconciliation, truth repair, truth and reconciliation, truth and restoration. And it needs to happen and restoration. And it needs to happen and restoration. And it needs to happen now. We have to create a new era. And I now. We have to create a new era. And I now. We have to create a new era. And I say era very intentionally. It can't be say era very intentionally. It can't be say era very intentionally. It can't be like 5 years ago. can't be a march for a like 5 years ago. can't be a march for a like 5 years ago. can't be a march for a few weeks. It's going to be it's going few weeks. It's going to be it's going few weeks. It's going to be it's going to take decades. We're going to have to to take decades. We're going to have to to take decades. We're going to have to build and we're going to have to imagine build and we're going to have to imagine build and we're going to have to imagine things and we're going to have to be things and we're going to have to be things and we're going to have to be structured and systematic and all of structured and systematic and all of structured and systematic and all of those things. We need to create those things. We need to create those things. We need to create something better. And that's why when I something better. And that's why when I something better. And that's why when I think about the 250th, I want to think think about the 250th, I want to think think about the 250th, I want to think about the 300. about the 300. about the 300. >> You mentioned the difference between a >> You mentioned the difference between a >> You mentioned the difference between a moment and an era. And a moment you sort moment and an era. And a moment you sort moment and an era. And a moment you sort of described as what happened five years of described as what happened five years of described as what happened five years ago. ago. ago. So what do you take as having happened 5 So what do you take as having happened 5 So what do you take as having happened 5 years ago? I mean there was this moment.

years ago? I mean there was this moment. years ago? I mean there was this moment. There was marches in the streets and There was marches in the streets and There was marches in the streets and Black Lives Matter and a sense that Black Lives Matter and a sense that Black Lives Matter and a sense that something really different. I mean it something really different. I mean it something really different. I mean it was very popularly called the reckoning was very popularly called the reckoning was very popularly called the reckoning and and and when um Biden and then Kla Harris you when um Biden and then Kla Harris you when um Biden and then Kla Harris you know ran for re-election. We're not know ran for re-election. We're not know ran for re-election. We're not going back was one of the big right. You going back was one of the big right. You going back was one of the big right. You said we're not going back. They said, said we're not going back. They said, said we're not going back. They said, "We're not going back." And then we a "We're not going back." And then we a "We're not going back." And then we a little bit little went [laughter] back little bit little went [laughter] back little bit little went [laughter] back and you know, so now Donald Trump is and you know, so now Donald Trump is and you know, so now Donald Trump is president and the 250th, president and the 250th, president and the 250th, >> you know, and and president in part on a >> you know, and and president in part on a >> you know, and and president in part on a very explicit promise to represent a very explicit promise to represent a very explicit promise to represent a very different vision of American very different vision of American very different vision of American history. When you look back on what history. When you look back on what history. When you look back on what happened 5 years ago, happened 5 years ago, happened 5 years ago, >> what >> what >> what what do you learn? What does need to be what do you learn? What does need to be what do you learn? What does need to be done differently? I I I think I mean in done differently? I I I think I mean in done differently? I I I think I mean in many ways it was too easy. It was too many ways it was too easy. It was too many ways it was too easy. It was too popular. Everybody just got to walk popular. Everybody just got to walk popular. Everybody just got to walk and claim something and didn't have to and claim something and didn't have to and claim something and didn't have to give anything. Didn't have to do give anything. Didn't have to do give anything. Didn't have to do anything really hard. And some people anything really hard. And some people anything really hard. And some people got mad when I said it's not that hard got mad when I said it's not that hard got mad when I said it's not that hard to to kind of march under these to to kind of march under these to to kind of march under these conditions. The police weren't really conditions. The police weren't really conditions. The police weren't really brutalizing you like they did on the brutalizing you like they did on the brutalizing you like they did on the Edmond Pettis Bridge. And I think the Edmond Pettis Bridge. And I think the Edmond Pettis Bridge. And I think the same thing was true for corporations, same thing was true for corporations, same thing was true for corporations, you know, who started saying, "Yes, you know, who started saying, "Yes, you know, who started saying, "Yes, diversity, equity, inclusion, uh, black diversity, equity, inclusion, uh, black diversity, equity, inclusion, uh, black lives matter." They didn't say it in lives matter." They didn't say it in lives matter." They didn't say it in 2015, but they were willing to say it in 2015, but they were willing to say it in 2015, but they were willing to say it in 2020, 2021. And we made it too easy. And 2020, 2021. And we made it too easy. And 2020, 2021. And we made it too easy. And I kept always arguing, look,

I kept always arguing, look, I kept always arguing, look, don't say we're going to commit to don't say we're going to commit to don't say we're going to commit to diversity, equity, and inclusion without diversity, equity, and inclusion without diversity, equity, and inclusion without first admitting to all of the harms that first admitting to all of the harms that first admitting to all of the harms that you created when you denied promotions you created when you denied promotions you created when you denied promotions to women and people of color for the to women and people of color for the to women and people of color for the last 30 years. Do a report that last 30 years. Do a report that last 30 years. Do a report that documents the discrimination and the documents the discrimination and the documents the discrimination and the bigotry and the ways you held women and bigotry and the ways you held women and bigotry and the ways you held women and people of color back in your company. people of color back in your company. people of color back in your company. women and people of color who were more women and people of color who were more women and people of color who were more skilled, more competent than their white skilled, more competent than their white skilled, more competent than their white peers, but they were denied the peers, but they were denied the peers, but they were denied the promotions because you didn't trust promotions because you didn't trust promotions because you didn't trust women and people of color to be in women and people of color to be in women and people of color to be in leadership. Admit to that, document leadership. Admit to that, document leadership. Admit to that, document that. Name names and then say, "But that. Name names and then say, "But that. Name names and then say, "But today, we're going to commit to a new today, we're going to commit to a new today, we're going to commit to a new era where we're going to embrace era where we're going to embrace era where we're going to embrace diversity. We're not going to allow diversity. We're not going to allow diversity. We're not going to allow gender and race to keep the most gender and race to keep the most gender and race to keep the most qualified person from playing the qualified person from playing the qualified person from playing the leadership role. We're going to have leadership role. We're going to have leadership role. We're going to have equity. We're going to be inclusive." equity. We're going to be inclusive." equity. We're going to be inclusive." And two things would have happened. that And two things would have happened. that And two things would have happened. that company would know that when somebody company would know that when somebody company would know that when somebody says you shouldn't do DEI, they would says you shouldn't do DEI, they would says you shouldn't do DEI, they would know how to respond to that. They would know how to respond to that. They would know how to respond to that. They would say no, we're doing this because this is say no, we're doing this because this is say no, we're doing this because this is what we used to do and we're not going what we used to do and we're not going what we used to do and we're not going to do that anymore. That was wrong and to do that anymore. That was wrong and to do that anymore. That was wrong and this is not and people who were looking this is not and people who were looking this is not and people who were looking at it wouldn't see think that black at it wouldn't see think that black at it wouldn't see think that black people and women are just getting people and women are just getting people and women are just getting benefits that they don't deserve. But benefits that they don't deserve. But benefits that they don't deserve. But that was hard for corporations and most that was hard for corporations and most that was hard for corporations and most of them wouldn't do it. They didn't do of them wouldn't do it. They didn't do of them wouldn't do it. They didn't do it. And so then when somebody comes it. And so then when somebody comes it. And so then when somebody comes along and says, "No, we're going to wipe along and says, "No, we're going to wipe along and says, "No, we're going to wipe that out." They say, "Okay." And so that out." They say, "Okay." And so that out." They say, "Okay." And so that's what I mean by an era. We've got that's what I mean by an era. We've got that's what I mean by an era. We've got to admit to the hard things. So this to admit to the hard things. So this to admit to the hard things. So this legacy of slavery is something we have legacy of slavery is something we have legacy of slavery is something we have to acknowledge if we're going to to acknowledge if we're going to to acknowledge if we're going to actually get to something better. The actually get to something better. The actually get to something better. The lynching violence and the terror lynching violence and the terror lynching violence and the terror violence, we have to acknowledge if

violence, we have to acknowledge if violence, we have to acknowledge if we're going to create a world where mobs we're going to create a world where mobs we're going to create a world where mobs don't form when our political candidate don't form when our political candidate don't form when our political candidate doesn't win and they engage in violent doesn't win and they engage in violent doesn't win and they engage in violent uh protests. For me, the lesson I joke uh protests. For me, the lesson I joke uh protests. For me, the lesson I joke Fred Gray, the amazing lawyer who's Fred Gray, the amazing lawyer who's Fred Gray, the amazing lawyer who's still alive, who represented Dr. King still alive, who represented Dr. King still alive, who represented Dr. King and and was the architect of the Browder and and was the architect of the Browder and and was the architect of the Browder versus Gale and and did so much in the versus Gale and and did so much in the versus Gale and and did so much in the 19. So I joke with him sometimes when we 19. So I joke with him sometimes when we 19. So I joke with him sometimes when we get together. I said, "Mr. Gray, we need get together. I said, "Mr. Gray, we need get together. I said, "Mr. Gray, we need to go back to 1965." to go back to 1965." to go back to 1965." And he'll say, "What were we going to do And he'll say, "What were we going to do And he'll say, "What were we going to do when we get back to 1965?" I said, "You when we get back to 1965?" I said, "You when we get back to 1965?" I said, "You know, I think we misjudged know, I think we misjudged know, I think we misjudged what was needed. I wish we could get what was needed. I wish we could get what was needed. I wish we could get back to 1965." And what I want to say in back to 1965." And what I want to say in back to 1965." And what I want to say in 1965 to Alabama, Mississippi, and 1965 to Alabama, Mississippi, and 1965 to Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia, and Louisiana, it is not enough Georgia, and Louisiana, it is not enough Georgia, and Louisiana, it is not enough for you to just vote against the Voting for you to just vote against the Voting for you to just vote against the Voting Rights Act, for you to just exist. I Rights Act, for you to just exist. I Rights Act, for you to just exist. I think we should have said all of you think we should have said all of you think we should have said all of you states that disenfranchise black people states that disenfranchise black people states that disenfranchise black people for 100 years, you are now required to for 100 years, you are now required to for 100 years, you are now required to automatically register every black automatically register every black automatically register every black person when they become 18 years of age. person when they become 18 years of age. person when they become 18 years of age. It wouldn't have been radical. It would It wouldn't have been radical. It would It wouldn't have been radical. It would not have been radical. It would been a not have been radical. It would been a not have been radical. It would been a way of giving the the violators of that way of giving the the violators of that way of giving the the violators of that right an opportunity to reckon with it right an opportunity to reckon with it right an opportunity to reckon with it and the people who had been harmed by and the people who had been harmed by and the people who had been harmed by that an opportunity to benefit. I don't that an opportunity to benefit. I don't that an opportunity to benefit. I don't think it would have been wrong in 1965 think it would have been wrong in 1965 think it would have been wrong in 1965 to say, "You all made polling places to say, "You all made polling places to say, "You all made polling places dangerous and treacherous for black dangerous and treacherous for black dangerous and treacherous for black people for 100 years. So, it's not right people for 100 years. So, it's not right people for 100 years. So, it's not right for them to have to come to the for them to have to come to the for them to have to come to the dangerous place. You should go into the dangerous place. You should go into the dangerous place. You should go into the black community and get their votes."

black community and get their votes." black community and get their votes." Well, let me ask you not just about what Well, let me ask you not just about what Well, let me ask you not just about what what you would like to have happen, but what you would like to have happen, but what you would like to have happen, but how the power or the narrative to make how the power or the narrative to make how the power or the narrative to make that happen happens. There is a that happen happens. There is a that happen happens. There is a tremendous amount in that sort of 5-year tremendous amount in that sort of 5-year tremendous amount in that sort of 5-year period we're talking about. I just think period we're talking about. I just think period we're talking about. I just think was right. was right. was right. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And what we saw was it was not able to >> And what we saw was it was not able to >> And what we saw was it was not able to build or sustain power. In fact, it build or sustain power. In fact, it build or sustain power. In fact, it created more backlash than was able to created more backlash than was able to created more backlash than was able to create staying power in many ways. Yeah. create staying power in many ways. Yeah. create staying power in many ways. Yeah. >> And so, you know, you talk about what >> And so, you know, you talk about what >> And so, you know, you talk about what happens on the Edund Pettis Bridge and happens on the Edund Pettis Bridge and happens on the Edund Pettis Bridge and that is people putting themselves on the that is people putting themselves on the that is people putting themselves on the line to create images line to create images line to create images to create power and it works to some to create power and it works to some to create power and it works to some amount. And then at a certain point, I amount. And then at a certain point, I amount. And then at a certain point, I mean, as and you know all this history mean, as and you know all this history mean, as and you know all this history much better than me, there's white much better than me, there's white much better than me, there's white backlash to that and you know, wait, we backlash to that and you know, wait, we backlash to that and you know, wait, we passed these bills, how are there still passed these bills, how are there still passed these bills, how are there still urban riots? You know, when is it going urban riots? You know, when is it going urban riots? You know, when is it going to be enough? So when you talk about to be enough? So when you talk about to be enough? So when you talk about moving to this new era and you talk moving to this new era and you talk moving to this new era and you talk about the power of these narratives and about the power of these narratives and about the power of these narratives and you you know you you know you you know what what lessons are there about what what lessons are there about what what lessons are there about building the power because the building the power because the building the power because the corporations you're talking about they corporations you're talking about they corporations you're talking about they don't want to go back and do a large don't want to go back and do a large don't want to go back and do a large analysis of who they did not promote and analysis of who they did not promote and analysis of who they did not promote and in what ways and open themselves to in what ways and open themselves to in what ways and open themselves to legal risk and and all the rest of it.

legal risk and and all the rest of it. legal risk and and all the rest of it. People are we talked about the the People are we talked about the the People are we talked about the the appeal of the harmony of the present. appeal of the harmony of the present. appeal of the harmony of the present. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> The harmony of the present is very >> The harmony of the present is very >> The harmony of the present is very seductive. seductive. seductive. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. But it's the same thing you were >> Right. But it's the same thing you were >> Right. But it's the same thing you were saying about Christianity and faith saying about Christianity and faith saying about Christianity and faith wanting stability. I I I actually think wanting stability. I I I actually think wanting stability. I I I actually think those companies that are willing to do those companies that are willing to do those companies that are willing to do that become stronger companies, become that become stronger companies, become that become stronger companies, become healthier companies. Those are country healthier companies. Those are country healthier companies. Those are country companies that are going to thrive and companies that are going to thrive and companies that are going to thrive and create an environment for employment create an environment for employment create an environment for employment that's going to be so much more that's going to be so much more that's going to be so much more effective than those that continue to effective than those that continue to effective than those that continue to hide and deny their harms. So I think hide and deny their harms. So I think hide and deny their harms. So I think the problem with 5 years ago is it the problem with 5 years ago is it the problem with 5 years ago is it wasn't rooted. We didn't require people wasn't rooted. We didn't require people wasn't rooted. We didn't require people to know the history of police violence to know the history of police violence to know the history of police violence against black and people. We didn't against black and people. We didn't against black and people. We didn't require them to understand the nature of require them to understand the nature of require them to understand the nature of this struggle over 400 years. We just this struggle over 400 years. We just this struggle over 400 years. We just allowed people to walk with a sign and allowed people to walk with a sign and allowed people to walk with a sign and that was it. And so I think it has to be that was it. And so I think it has to be that was it. And so I think it has to be rooted. When I talk about an era of rooted. When I talk about an era of rooted. When I talk about an era of truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and reconciliation, truth and truth and reconciliation, truth and truth and reconciliation, truth and restoration, I think those things are restoration, I think those things are restoration, I think those things are sequential, I don't think you can skip sequential, I don't think you can skip sequential, I don't think you can skip the truthtelling part and get to the the truthtelling part and get to the the truthtelling part and get to the beautiful Rwords. I think we make a beautiful Rwords. I think we make a beautiful Rwords. I think we make a mistake when we do that. And just again mistake when we do that. And just again mistake when we do that. And just again coming from a faith tradition in my coming from a faith tradition in my coming from a faith tradition in my church, you can't come to my church and church, you can't come to my church and church, you can't come to my church and say, "Oh, I want salvation and say, "Oh, I want salvation and say, "Oh, I want salvation and redemption and heaven and all that good redemption and heaven and all that good redemption and heaven and all that good stuff, but I'm not going to admit to stuff, but I'm not going to admit to stuff, but I'm not going to admit to anything. I'm not going to confess to anything. I'm not going to confess to anything. I'm not going to confess to ever doing anything wrong." The clergy ever doing anything wrong." The clergy ever doing anything wrong." The clergy in my community will say, "Oh, no. It in my community will say, "Oh, no. It in my community will say, "Oh, no. It doesn't work like that. You have to doesn't work like that. You have to doesn't work like that. You have to first confess. You have to repent, but first confess. You have to repent, but first confess. You have to repent, but you shouldn't fear it. They will you shouldn't fear it. They will you shouldn't fear it. They will lovingly tell you, "Do not fear

lovingly tell you, "Do not fear lovingly tell you, "Do not fear confession and repentance." And they'll confession and repentance." And they'll confession and repentance." And they'll explain to you that confession and explain to you that confession and explain to you that confession and repentance, acknowledgment is what opens repentance, acknowledgment is what opens repentance, acknowledgment is what opens up your heart to grace and mercy. That's up your heart to grace and mercy. That's up your heart to grace and mercy. That's how redemption happens. That's how how redemption happens. That's how how redemption happens. That's how repair happens. In a love relationship, repair happens. In a love relationship, repair happens. In a love relationship, we learn that we have to sometimes be we learn that we have to sometimes be we learn that we have to sometimes be willing to say, "I'm sorry. You tell you willing to say, "I'm sorry. You tell you willing to say, "I'm sorry. You tell you show me two people who have been in love show me two people who have been in love show me two people who have been in love for 50 years, I'll show you two people for 50 years, I'll show you two people for 50 years, I'll show you two people who have learned how to apologize to one who have learned how to apologize to one who have learned how to apologize to one another when they offend when they make another when they offend when they make another when they offend when they make a mistake. We understand that in our a mistake. We understand that in our a mistake. We understand that in our personal lives, but I think the same is personal lives, but I think the same is personal lives, but I think the same is true in our collective life, our true in our collective life, our true in our collective life, our communal life, our national life. But communal life, our national life. But communal life, our national life. But there was an effort to make people there was an effort to make people there was an effort to make people repent. There was an effort to make repent. There was an effort to make repent. There was an effort to make people reckon in a way that there hasn't people reckon in a way that there hasn't people reckon in a way that there hasn't been certainly at other times in my been certainly at other times in my been certainly at other times in my lifetime. And the the place I'm pushing lifetime. And the the place I'm pushing lifetime. And the the place I'm pushing here isn't about whether or not I think here isn't about whether or not I think here isn't about whether or not I think it would be good if people did so, but it would be good if people did so, but it would be good if people did so, but what did you learn from the way the what did you learn from the way the what did you learn from the way the backlash overtook the project? I mean, backlash overtook the project? I mean, backlash overtook the project? I mean, again, Donald Trump is going to be again, Donald Trump is going to be again, Donald Trump is going to be president for the 250th. And president for the 250th. And president for the 250th. And >> I I was thinking before we sat down >> I I was thinking before we sat down >> I I was thinking before we sat down today about the way he frames what it today about the way he frames what it today about the way he frames what it means to believe in America versus the means to believe in America versus the means to believe in America versus the way Obama framed what it means to way Obama framed what it means to way Obama framed what it means to believe in America. and his framing of believe in America. and his framing of believe in America. and his framing of it is very much to believe that America it is very much to believe that America it is very much to believe that America is great. That the story of being a is great. That the story of being a is great. That the story of being a patriot is loving your country very much patriot is loving your country very much patriot is loving your country very much as it is.

as it is. as it is. >> Obama's story was very much that the >> Obama's story was very much that the >> Obama's story was very much that the people who have made America great, that people who have made America great, that people who have made America great, that people have been part of the process of people have been part of the process of people have been part of the process of change are the true patriots. change are the true patriots. change are the true patriots. >> It was a creed written into the founding >> It was a creed written into the founding >> It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny of a documents that declared the destiny of a documents that declared the destiny of a nation. Yes, we can. nation. Yes, we can. nation. Yes, we can. It was whispered by slaves and It was whispered by slaves and It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail abolitionists as they blazed a trail abolitionists as they blazed a trail towards freedom through the darkest of towards freedom through the darkest of towards freedom through the darkest of nights. Yes, we came. nights. Yes, we came. nights. Yes, we came. >> It was sung by immigrants as they struck >> It was sung by immigrants as they struck >> It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who out from distant shores and pioneers who out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving pushed westward against an unforgiving pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness. Yes, we came. wilderness. Yes, we came. wilderness. Yes, we came. It was the call of workers who It was the call of workers who It was the call of workers who organized, women who reached for the organized, women who reached for the organized, women who reached for the ballot, a president who chose the moon ballot, a president who chose the moon ballot, a president who chose the moon as our new frontier, and a king who took as our new frontier, and a king who took as our new frontier, and a king who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the us to the mountaintop and pointed the us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the promised land. Yes, we can, way to the promised land. Yes, we can, way to the promised land. Yes, we can, to justice and equality. to justice and equality. to justice and equality. >> But I do think there's real ways in >> But I do think there's real ways in >> But I do think there's real ways in which like the left lost patriotism to which like the left lost patriotism to which like the left lost patriotism to the right. It felt like it was just an the right. It felt like it was just an the right. It felt like it was just an endless confrontation with sins without endless confrontation with sins without endless confrontation with sins without maybe necessarily the space for grace maybe necessarily the space for grace maybe necessarily the space for grace that you're talking about.

that you're talking about. that you're talking about. >> And so to keep that from happening >> And so to keep that from happening >> And so to keep that from happening again, what do you believe should be again, what do you believe should be again, what do you believe should be done differently? done differently? done differently? >> Yeah. Well, I think first of all, um, >> Yeah. Well, I think first of all, um, >> Yeah. Well, I think first of all, um, I think we've gone through a moment I think we've gone through a moment I think we've gone through a moment where our platforms have been dominated where our platforms have been dominated where our platforms have been dominated by people who represent perspectives by people who represent perspectives by people who represent perspectives that I don't think necessarily represent that I don't think necessarily represent that I don't think necessarily represent the perspectives of the majority of the the perspectives of the majority of the the perspectives of the majority of the population, but they create the debate. population, but they create the debate. population, but they create the debate. They create the discussion. And I think They create the discussion. And I think They create the discussion. And I think we're getting better at sort of we're getting better at sort of we're getting better at sort of evaluating that and understanding that. evaluating that and understanding that. evaluating that and understanding that. But I don't think this isn't, you know, But I don't think this isn't, you know, But I don't think this isn't, you know, this is something can be shaped by, you this is something can be shaped by, you this is something can be shaped by, you know, academic elites. I don't think it know, academic elites. I don't think it know, academic elites. I don't think it should be shaped by even media elites. I should be shaped by even media elites. I should be shaped by even media elites. I don't think it should be shaped by don't think it should be shaped by don't think it should be shaped by people who have by one means or another people who have by one means or another people who have by one means or another created platforms. You have to be created platforms. You have to be created platforms. You have to be connected. Dr. King succeeded because he connected. Dr. King succeeded because he connected. Dr. King succeeded because he had the respect of every black person in had the respect of every black person in had the respect of every black person in this community. And if he didn't, this community. And if he didn't, this community. And if he didn't, wouldn't have worked. They were wouldn't have worked. They were wouldn't have worked. They were connected. Before we had elected black connected. Before we had elected black connected. Before we had elected black officials, you had just people doing officials, you had just people doing officials, you had just people doing extraordinary things in the community.

extraordinary things in the community. extraordinary things in the community. They became the leaders because of what They became the leaders because of what They became the leaders because of what they did, not because they won an they did, not because they won an they did, not because they won an election. Now, I'm glad we have elected election. Now, I'm glad we have elected election. Now, I'm glad we have elected officials and you identify an amazing uh officials and you identify an amazing uh officials and you identify an amazing uh set of them, President Obama, etc., but set of them, President Obama, etc., but set of them, President Obama, etc., but it takes more than that. It takes a it takes more than that. It takes a it takes more than that. It takes a connection. And so, number one, we have connection. And so, number one, we have connection. And so, number one, we have to understand truly who we are in this to understand truly who we are in this to understand truly who we are in this struggle. Secondly, I just think there struggle. Secondly, I just think there struggle. Secondly, I just think there is a lot of power in appreciating is a lot of power in appreciating is a lot of power in appreciating what people have already done to get us what people have already done to get us what people have already done to get us to where we are. That is what has to where we are. That is what has to where we are. That is what has already been done, the nature of that already been done, the nature of that already been done, the nature of that progress, the nature of that struggle. I progress, the nature of that struggle. I progress, the nature of that struggle. I mean, when people say to me, "Oh, it's mean, when people say to me, "Oh, it's mean, when people say to me, "Oh, it's just so much harder now." I mean, the just so much harder now." I mean, the just so much harder now." I mean, the truth is we've never been better truth is we've never been better truth is we've never been better positioned to win a narrative war to positioned to win a narrative war to positioned to win a narrative war to create an era of truth and justice. create an era of truth and justice. create an era of truth and justice. There are more talented writers and There are more talented writers and There are more talented writers and journalists. There's more black journalists. There's more black journalists. There's more black journalism. All there's a diversity in journalism. All there's a diversity in journalism. All there's a diversity in journalism that has never existed journalism that has never existed journalism that has never existed before. There's a diversity of before. There's a diversity of before. There's a diversity of platforms. We have more scholars. We platforms. We have more scholars. We platforms. We have more scholars. We have more this. We have more everything.

have more this. We have more everything. have more this. We have more everything. We're better positioned than we've ever We're better positioned than we've ever We're better positioned than we've ever been. The question is, do we have the been. The question is, do we have the been. The question is, do we have the will? Do we have an understanding of will? Do we have an understanding of will? Do we have an understanding of what we must do? And I just look at what we must do? And I just look at what we must do? And I just look at different movements, different I mean 30 different movements, different I mean 30 different movements, different I mean 30 years ago, nobody would have predicted years ago, nobody would have predicted years ago, nobody would have predicted that there'd be marriage equality. What that there'd be marriage equality. What that there'd be marriage equality. What got us to marriage equality was a got us to marriage equality was a got us to marriage equality was a narrative movement that caused people to narrative movement that caused people to narrative movement that caused people to retreat from this idea that only a man retreat from this idea that only a man retreat from this idea that only a man can love a woman. And we just started to can love a woman. And we just started to can love a woman. And we just started to see the limitations of that. And then we see the limitations of that. And then we see the limitations of that. And then we got to the point where we could see got to the point where we could see got to the point where we could see love. It's not stable. We may see love. It's not stable. We may see love. It's not stable. We may see retreat, but that's a progress. That is retreat, but that's a progress. That is retreat, but that's a progress. That is real progress that has changed the lives real progress that has changed the lives real progress that has changed the lives of real people based on that movement. I of real people based on that movement. I of real people based on that movement. I want to read you something that Donald want to read you something that Donald want to read you something that Donald Trump said when he announced the 1776 Trump said when he announced the 1776 Trump said when he announced the 1776 commission, his response to the Times is commission, his response to the Times is commission, his response to the Times is 1619 project. And he said, "Our mission 1619 project. And he said, "Our mission 1619 project. And he said, "Our mission is to defend the legacy of America's is to defend the legacy of America's is to defend the legacy of America's founding, the virtue of America's heroes founding, the virtue of America's heroes founding, the virtue of America's heroes and the nobility of the American and the nobility of the American and the nobility of the American character. We must clear away the character. We must clear away the character. We must clear away the twisted web of lies in our schools and twisted web of lies in our schools and twisted web of lies in our schools and classrooms and teach our children the classrooms and teach our children the classrooms and teach our children the magnificent truth about our country. We magnificent truth about our country. We magnificent truth about our country. We want our sons and our daughters to know want our sons and our daughters to know want our sons and our daughters to know that they are the citizens of the most that they are the citizens of the most that they are the citizens of the most exceptional nation in the history of the exceptional nation in the history of the exceptional nation in the history of the world.

world. world. Something you just said to me a few Something you just said to me a few Something you just said to me a few times is that we, and I take the wei times is that we, and I take the wei times is that we, and I take the wei here to mean those who believe in a more here to mean those who believe in a more here to mean those who believe in a more just and more free America, an America just and more free America, an America just and more free America, an America that is beyond where it is today, have that is beyond where it is today, have that is beyond where it is today, have never been better positioned to win what never been better positioned to win what never been better positioned to win what you call the narrative war. And so you call the narrative war. And so you call the narrative war. And so rather than have you answer that, what rather than have you answer that, what rather than have you answer that, what I'd like to hear you describe as we come I'd like to hear you describe as we come I'd like to hear you describe as we come to a close is what is that narrative? to a close is what is that narrative? to a close is what is that narrative? What is the thing at the center of the What is the thing at the center of the What is the thing at the center of the answer to that? If if if what Trump answer to that? If if if what Trump answer to that? If if if what Trump wants to tell everybody at the wants to tell everybody at the wants to tell everybody at the anniversary is this country has always anniversary is this country has always anniversary is this country has always been great and the people who are trying been great and the people who are trying been great and the people who are trying to take its greatness from you are are to take its greatness from you are are to take its greatness from you are are the enemy. the enemy. the enemy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What is the story that you want to see >> What is the story that you want to see >> What is the story that you want to see the people seeking justice tell in the people seeking justice tell in the people seeking justice tell in return? The story that you think can return? The story that you think can return? The story that you think can build that power and change that build that power and change that build that power and change that country. country. country. >> I don't think greatness is defined by >> I don't think greatness is defined by >> I don't think greatness is defined by who has the most powerful military. I who has the most powerful military. I who has the most powerful military. I don't think greatness is defined by who don't think greatness is defined by who don't think greatness is defined by who has the most money. I don't think has the most money. I don't think has the most money. I don't think greatness is defined by who uh has done greatness is defined by who uh has done greatness is defined by who uh has done the most innovation with regard to the most innovation with regard to the most innovation with regard to technology. It's not defined by who gets technology. It's not defined by who gets technology. It's not defined by who gets to the moon first or to Mars first.

to the moon first or to Mars first. to the moon first or to Mars first. Those are all notable and laudable Those are all notable and laudable Those are all notable and laudable achievements. But when I think about achievements. But when I think about achievements. But when I think about human history and when I think about the human history and when I think about the human history and when I think about the human struggle, human struggle, human struggle, I'm quite convinced I'm quite convinced I'm quite convinced that greatness is defined by our that greatness is defined by our that greatness is defined by our capacity to love one another. Our capacity to love one another. Our capacity to love one another. Our capacity to care for people we don't capacity to care for people we don't capacity to care for people we don't have to care for. Our capacity to show have to care for. Our capacity to show have to care for. Our capacity to show mercy. Our capacity to help those in mercy. Our capacity to help those in mercy. Our capacity to help those in need. Our capacity to get beyond need. Our capacity to get beyond need. Our capacity to get beyond boundaries and borders that have either boundaries and borders that have either boundaries and borders that have either artificially or naturally limited us. artificially or naturally limited us. artificially or naturally limited us. Our capacity Our capacity Our capacity to unlock to unlock to unlock opportunities for those who have been opportunities for those who have been opportunities for those who have been unfairly bound and and and burdened. unfairly bound and and and burdened. unfairly bound and and and burdened. That's greatness. And so when I look at That's greatness. And so when I look at That's greatness. And so when I look at our history, the things that make me our history, the things that make me our history, the things that make me proud proud proud are the things that people have done to are the things that people have done to are the things that people have done to overcome. I I actually think there's an overcome. I I actually think there's an overcome. I I actually think there's an American story that appreciates the American story that appreciates the American story that appreciates the underdog who does the great thing that underdog who does the great thing that underdog who does the great thing that no one thought they could do.

no one thought they could do. no one thought they could do. You know, the team that wins when nobody You know, the team that wins when nobody You know, the team that wins when nobody expected them to win. expected them to win. expected them to win. The person who dazzles when no one The person who dazzles when no one The person who dazzles when no one thought they had that ability. The thought they had that ability. The thought they had that ability. The person who shocks you because they have person who shocks you because they have person who shocks you because they have a voice you didn't expect them to have. a voice you didn't expect them to have. a voice you didn't expect them to have. The person who surprises you because The person who surprises you because The person who surprises you because they can do things in an entertainment they can do things in an entertainment they can do things in an entertainment or an athletic space you didn't expect or an athletic space you didn't expect or an athletic space you didn't expect them to do. That's what creates wonder. them to do. That's what creates wonder. them to do. That's what creates wonder. That's what makes you appreciate That's what makes you appreciate That's what makes you appreciate the glory of being a human, the beauty the glory of being a human, the beauty the glory of being a human, the beauty of being a human. And nothing I think of being a human. And nothing I think of being a human. And nothing I think reflects greatness more than our desire reflects greatness more than our desire reflects greatness more than our desire to see that everywhere and that to see that everywhere and that to see that everywhere and that opportunity given to everyone. So I, you opportunity given to everyone. So I, you opportunity given to everyone. So I, you know, I just think the model of know, I just think the model of know, I just think the model of greatness that's about power and greatness that's about power and greatness that's about power and strength and the ability to threaten and strength and the ability to threaten and strength and the ability to threaten and intimidate, it's a it's a false intimidate, it's a it's a false intimidate, it's a it's a false narrative. And the and the military narrative. And the and the military narrative. And the and the military power, the nations that have been power, the nations that have been power, the nations that have been claimed to be the greatest nations claimed to be the greatest nations claimed to be the greatest nations because they had the most military power because they had the most military power because they had the most military power have all fallen. It's not a stable or have all fallen. It's not a stable or have all fallen. It's not a stable or sustainable space to occupy.

sustainable space to occupy. sustainable space to occupy. those who diminish and deny and those who diminish and deny and those who diminish and deny and marginalize human relations, care, love, marginalize human relations, care, love, marginalize human relations, care, love, mercy, justice, those societies fall. mercy, justice, those societies fall. mercy, justice, those societies fall. And I I' I'd still like to believe that And I I' I'd still like to believe that And I I' I'd still like to believe that America's best days are in front of us. America's best days are in front of us. America's best days are in front of us. I And and when I roll my eyes when I And and when I roll my eyes when I And and when I roll my eyes when people say make America great again, people say make America great again, people say make America great again, it's not because I minimize some of the it's not because I minimize some of the it's not because I minimize some of the things we've done in the past. I just things we've done in the past. I just things we've done in the past. I just have to believe there is something have to believe there is something have to believe there is something better waiting for us. And I and I better waiting for us. And I and I better waiting for us. And I and I believe that. I really do. I think we believe that. I really do. I think we believe that. I really do. I think we are are are poised to do some things, but we're also poised to do some things, but we're also poised to do some things, but we're also threatened to go back. And so, we're threatened to go back. And so, we're threatened to go back. And so, we're going to have to win this struggle. But going to have to win this struggle. But going to have to win this struggle. But yeah, I think for me greatness is yeah, I think for me greatness is yeah, I think for me greatness is creating a world where there's more creating a world where there's more creating a world where there's more love, where there's more hope, where love, where there's more hope, where love, where there's more hope, where there's more mercy, where there's more there's more mercy, where there's more there's more mercy, where there's more opportunity, where there's less opportunity, where there's less opportunity, where there's less sickness, where there's less poverty, sickness, where there's less poverty, sickness, where there's less poverty, where there's less despair, where there's less despair, where there's less despair, where there's the kind of where there's the kind of where there's the kind of um joy and beauty that I think we all um joy and beauty that I think we all um joy and beauty that I think we all crave. And our government should crave. And our government should crave. And our government should facilitate an opportunity for more of facilitate an opportunity for more of facilitate an opportunity for more of that more of that beauty, more of that that more of that beauty, more of that that more of that beauty, more of that joy, more of that love, not block people joy, more of that love, not block people joy, more of that love, not block people from understanding things that get in from understanding things that get in from understanding things that get in the way of joy and beauty and love like the way of joy and beauty and love like the way of joy and beauty and love like bigotry and violence and hatred and bigotry and violence and hatred and bigotry and violence and hatred and racial categorizations and hierarchy. I racial categorizations and hierarchy. I racial categorizations and hierarchy. I I think to me that's the greatness that I think to me that's the greatness that I think to me that's the greatness that I'm looking for.

I'm looking for. I'm looking for. >> This is something that I thought walking >> This is something that I thought walking >> This is something that I thought walking through the sculptures. It had to have through the sculptures. It had to have through the sculptures. It had to have been a choice to represent things that been a choice to represent things that been a choice to represent things that were were were that are so hard to bear, so hard to that are so hard to bear, so hard to that are so hard to bear, so hard to look in the sun of their cruelty. look in the sun of their cruelty. look in the sun of their cruelty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In ways that are so beautiful. >> In ways that are so beautiful. >> In ways that are so beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not a ways that it's a very difficult >> Not a ways that it's a very difficult >> Not a ways that it's a very difficult place to move through. It sits heavy at place to move through. It sits heavy at place to move through. It sits heavy at you. And yet it is all you found. you. And yet it is all you found. you. And yet it is all you found. >> Or the artists there. >> Or the artists there. >> Or the artists there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the space you chose and the the >> And the space you chose and the the >> And the space you chose and the the garden you created. I mean, there's one garden you created. I mean, there's one garden you created. I mean, there's one sculpture there of a child who's a slave sculpture there of a child who's a slave sculpture there of a child who's a slave child who is hurt his hand picking child who is hurt his hand picking child who is hurt his hand picking cotton, showing it to his mother, cotton, showing it to his mother, cotton, showing it to his mother, >> and there's cotton, real cotton balls, >> and there's cotton, real cotton balls, >> and there's cotton, real cotton balls, I'll never forget how beautiful I'll never forget how beautiful I'll never forget how beautiful >> and sad that sculpture is. >> and sad that sculpture is. >> and sad that sculpture is. >> But that choice to represent so much >> But that choice to represent so much >> But that choice to represent so much hardship and beauty hardship and beauty hardship and beauty >> struck me as very moving. >> struck me as very moving. >> struck me as very moving. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I I I guess that's >> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I I I guess that's >> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I I I guess that's just what I've learned from my work. I just what I've learned from my work. I just what I've learned from my work. I mean, I've chosen to stand next to mean, I've chosen to stand next to mean, I've chosen to stand next to condemned people condemned people condemned people um who are going to be executed. And you um who are going to be executed. And you um who are going to be executed. And you can ask yourself, why would you get can ask yourself, why would you get can ask yourself, why would you get close to something like that? And what close to something like that? And what close to something like that? And what I've learned is that when you're kind of I've learned is that when you're kind of I've learned is that when you're kind of close to the disfavored, the close to the disfavored, the close to the disfavored, the marginalized, the condemned, you marginalized, the condemned, you marginalized, the condemned, you sometimes have the ability to harness sometimes have the ability to harness sometimes have the ability to harness the power of love and grace and create the power of love and grace and create the power of love and grace and create something beautiful in the midst of something beautiful in the midst of something beautiful in the midst of something really ugly. And those are the something really ugly. And those are the something really ugly. And those are the things that people hold on to. What

things that people hold on to. What things that people hold on to. What inspires me the most inspires me the most inspires me the most about representing the people I about representing the people I about representing the people I represent is to see their humanity, to represent is to see their humanity, to represent is to see their humanity, to see them say something, hear them say see them say something, hear them say see them say something, hear them say something, or see them do something something, or see them do something something, or see them do something beautiful. And and I just think if you beautiful. And and I just think if you beautiful. And and I just think if you understand that enslaved people had the understand that enslaved people had the understand that enslaved people had the capacity to show compassion and love to capacity to show compassion and love to capacity to show compassion and love to their children, you begin to understand their children, you begin to understand their children, you begin to understand slavery differently. You don't go to, slavery differently. You don't go to, slavery differently. You don't go to, well, they benefited from slavery. They well, they benefited from slavery. They well, they benefited from slavery. They you ended up better off than you were you ended up better off than you were you ended up better off than you were because you understand that they're not because you understand that they're not because you understand that they're not so different. And and so yes, I think so different. And and so yes, I think so different. And and so yes, I think beauty is important. I mean that I as as beauty is important. I mean that I as as beauty is important. I mean that I as as you know I've seen a lot of ugly a lot you know I've seen a lot of ugly a lot you know I've seen a lot of ugly a lot of ugly and you know locking people up of ugly and you know locking people up of ugly and you know locking people up in cages and seeing some of the bigotry in cages and seeing some of the bigotry in cages and seeing some of the bigotry and the hostility that people have and the hostility that people have and the hostility that people have sometimes shown. I've gotten death sometimes shown. I've gotten death sometimes shown. I've gotten death threats involved. There's a lot of ugly, threats involved. There's a lot of ugly, threats involved. There's a lot of ugly, but oh the beauty. Oh, the glory. I I but oh the beauty. Oh, the glory. I I but oh the beauty. Oh, the glory. I I mean, um, you know, the remarkable mean, um, you know, the remarkable mean, um, you know, the remarkable things that I get to see among condemned things that I get to see among condemned things that I get to see among condemned people. People were in jails and people. People were in jails and people. People were in jails and prisons. People, we have an anti-hunger prisons. People, we have an anti-hunger prisons. People, we have an anti-hunger program now. We're going into the black program now. We're going into the black program now. We're going into the black belt. Alabama has one of the highest belt. Alabama has one of the highest belt. Alabama has one of the highest rates of food insecurity in the country.

rates of food insecurity in the country. rates of food insecurity in the country. And so, we go into these communities. We And so, we go into these communities. We And so, we go into these communities. We support families who are food insecure. support families who are food insecure. support families who are food insecure. We give them basically $415 a month for We give them basically $415 a month for We give them basically $415 a month for six months. So they have some space to six months. So they have some space to six months. So they have some space to do some other things. And then we have a do some other things. And then we have a do some other things. And then we have a mobile grocery that goes into these rare mobile grocery that goes into these rare mobile grocery that goes into these rare really isolated areas and sell groceries really isolated areas and sell groceries really isolated areas and sell groceries at next to nothing. And people come out at next to nothing. And people come out at next to nothing. And people come out and there is a love and an excitement and there is a love and an excitement and there is a love and an excitement and an appreciation. Everybody on my and an appreciation. Everybody on my and an appreciation. Everybody on my staff is fighting to be on the team that staff is fighting to be on the team that staff is fighting to be on the team that goes out because it's just so goes out because it's just so goes out because it's just so energizing. And every now and then I'll energizing. And every now and then I'll energizing. And every now and then I'll talk to somebody and when you know an talk to somebody and when you know an talk to somebody and when you know an older person pulls me aside and just older person pulls me aside and just older person pulls me aside and just says, "Thank you for doing this." And we says, "Thank you for doing this." And we says, "Thank you for doing this." And we allow people in the program to identify allow people in the program to identify allow people in the program to identify other people who should be in the other people who should be in the other people who should be in the program. So I'll say to some of the program. So I'll say to some of the program. So I'll say to some of the people in the program, you pick three people in the program, you pick three people in the program, you pick three people in your community who you think people in your community who you think people in your community who you think needs this more than you. No relatives, needs this more than you. No relatives, needs this more than you. No relatives, but just pick three people. And they'll but just pick three people. And they'll but just pick three people. And they'll take it so seriously. And then they'll take it so seriously. And then they'll take it so seriously. And then they'll come back and say, "Well, these are the come back and say, "Well, these are the come back and say, "Well, these are the three people." And what this woman said three people." And what this woman said three people." And what this woman said to me is, she said, "Mr. Stevenson, just to me is, she said, "Mr. Stevenson, just to me is, she said, "Mr. Stevenson, just because you're poor doesn't mean that because you're poor doesn't mean that because you're poor doesn't mean that you don't want to be generous. Just you don't want to be generous. Just you don't want to be generous. Just because you're poor doesn't mean you because you're poor doesn't mean you because you're poor doesn't mean you don't want to help other people." And don't want to help other people." And don't want to help other people." And she's more grateful that we have allowed she's more grateful that we have allowed she's more grateful that we have allowed her, in her words, to be a her, in her words, to be a her, in her words, to be a philanthropist than she is for the food.

philanthropist than she is for the food. philanthropist than she is for the food. And for me, there's a beauty in that, And for me, there's a beauty in that, And for me, there's a beauty in that, not just the material exchange, but in not just the material exchange, but in not just the material exchange, but in understanding the heart of this human understanding the heart of this human understanding the heart of this human being who despite poverty wants to be being who despite poverty wants to be being who despite poverty wants to be generous. generous. generous. And instead of just labeling and And instead of just labeling and And instead of just labeling and demonizing and marginalizing the poor demonizing and marginalizing the poor demonizing and marginalizing the poor when we understand there's a desire in when we understand there's a desire in when we understand there's a desire in that community to be generous, we think that community to be generous, we think that community to be generous, we think differently about what it would mean to differently about what it would mean to differently about what it would mean to fight poverty. And so yes, I think that fight poverty. And so yes, I think that fight poverty. And so yes, I think that beauty is really important. without the beauty is really important. without the beauty is really important. without the beauty of overcoming segregation and Jim beauty of overcoming segregation and Jim beauty of overcoming segregation and Jim Crow, the beauty of overcoming the Crow, the beauty of overcoming the Crow, the beauty of overcoming the violence and and and menace of lynching violence and and and menace of lynching violence and and and menace of lynching and not hating everybody for that. The and not hating everybody for that. The and not hating everybody for that. The beauty of choosing uh America and beauty of choosing uh America and beauty of choosing uh America and citizenship and not retribution and citizenship and not retribution and citizenship and not retribution and revenge after emancipation, revenge after emancipation, revenge after emancipation, it'd be hard to to believe in this it'd be hard to to believe in this it'd be hard to to believe in this country. But when I experience that country. But when I experience that country. But when I experience that beauty and I see that beauty [snorts] beauty and I see that beauty [snorts] beauty and I see that beauty [snorts] and I know that beauty doesn't have a a and I know that beauty doesn't have a a and I know that beauty doesn't have a a a racial uh boundary, it doesn't have an a racial uh boundary, it doesn't have an a racial uh boundary, it doesn't have an age boundary, it doesn't have a gender age boundary, it doesn't have a gender age boundary, it doesn't have a gender boundary, it doesn't have an identity boundary, it doesn't have an identity boundary, it doesn't have an identity boundary, it is a human experience that boundary, it is a human experience that boundary, it is a human experience that we can all embrace, then I'm I'm we can all embrace, then I'm I'm we can all embrace, then I'm I'm motivated.

motivated. motivated. >> I'll end before I ask you on books. >> I'll end before I ask you on books. >> I'll end before I ask you on books. Okay. Um something you just said, what Okay. Um something you just said, what Okay. Um something you just said, what it means to choose this country, what it it means to choose this country, what it it means to choose this country, what it means to believe in the country. means to believe in the country. means to believe in the country. I know a lot of people who I know a lot of people who I know a lot of people who have come to feel very alienated have come to feel very alienated have come to feel very alienated >> from the country over the past 10 years. >> from the country over the past 10 years. >> from the country over the past 10 years. >> Trump's first term and his second term >> Trump's first term and his second term >> Trump's first term and his second term and what he represents and the way he and what he represents and the way he and what he represents and the way he acts and the things he says been hard acts and the things he says been hard acts and the things he says been hard for them to know. So many of their for them to know. So many of their for them to know. So many of their countrymen chose him chose him again. countrymen chose him chose him again. countrymen chose him chose him again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. they actually have done reckoning with they actually have done reckoning with they actually have done reckoning with parts of the country's past parts of the country's past parts of the country's past >> they maybe did not know that much about >> they maybe did not know that much about >> they maybe did not know that much about and that has been deeply overwhelming. and that has been deeply overwhelming. and that has been deeply overwhelming. >> Mhm. It's a hard thing to hold >> Mhm. It's a hard thing to hold >> Mhm. It's a hard thing to hold and the the mixture of the two and then and the the mixture of the two and then and the the mixture of the two and then the 250th coming when it does and in the the 250th coming when it does and in the the 250th coming when it does and in the political moment it does when I asked political moment it does when I asked political moment it does when I asked him then I said do you you know do you him then I said do you you know do you him then I said do you you know do you love the country would would you say you love the country would would you say you love the country would would you say you believe in America sort of paused and believe in America sort of paused and believe in America sort of paused and said well it's a it's a hard moment so said well it's a it's a hard moment so said well it's a it's a hard moment so what what to does it mean to love what what to does it mean to love what what to does it mean to love America to believe in it to choose it America to believe in it to choose it America to believe in it to choose it >> I I in some ways I think it's for me at >> I I in some ways I think it's for me at >> I I in some ways I think it's for me at least it's kind of the wrong question do least it's kind of the wrong question do least it's kind of the wrong question do you love America it it feels like it's a you love America it it feels like it's a you love America it it feels like it's a question created as a sort of a kind of question created as a sort of a kind of question created as a sort of a kind of a litmus test. It, you know, it's like a litmus test. It, you know, it's like a litmus test. It, you know, it's like asking, you know, which child do you asking, you know, which child do you asking, you know, which child do you love the most? We think that's an love the most? We think that's an love the most? We think that's an inappropriate inappropriate inappropriate question because we have an obligation.

question because we have an obligation. question because we have an obligation. We have a responsibility to all of our We have a responsibility to all of our We have a responsibility to all of our children. I am an American. And when I children. I am an American. And when I children. I am an American. And when I think about my forearms as much as I think about my forearms as much as I think about my forearms as much as I have been recently, have been recently, have been recently, they have fought for me to be an they have fought for me to be an they have fought for me to be an American. I I I think the emancipated American. I I I think the emancipated American. I I I think the emancipated those four million black people who were those four million black people who were those four million black people who were emancipated after the sword are some of emancipated after the sword are some of emancipated after the sword are some of the greatest Americans I can identify the greatest Americans I can identify the greatest Americans I can identify because they committed when it wasn't because they committed when it wasn't because they committed when it wasn't rational. They contributed when it rational. They contributed when it rational. They contributed when it wasn't appreciated. They persevered when wasn't appreciated. They persevered when wasn't appreciated. They persevered when they were being threatened and menaced. they were being threatened and menaced. they were being threatened and menaced. They continued to believe despite They continued to believe despite They continued to believe despite unspeakable abuse and cruelty. I think unspeakable abuse and cruelty. I think unspeakable abuse and cruelty. I think they're the greatest Americans. I'm not they're the greatest Americans. I'm not they're the greatest Americans. I'm not trying to rank Americans, but if you ask trying to rank Americans, but if you ask trying to rank Americans, but if you ask me to name some great Americans, I'm me to name some great Americans, I'm me to name some great Americans, I'm going to name the 4 million people who going to name the 4 million people who going to name the 4 million people who were emancipated who continued to fight, were emancipated who continued to fight, were emancipated who continued to fight, just like I would name the people in just like I would name the people in just like I would name the people in this community in 1955 who committed this community in 1955 who committed this community in 1955 who committed themselves to staying off the buses. themselves to staying off the buses. themselves to staying off the buses. They were great Americans. They were great Americans. They were great Americans. And so I want to be a great American, And so I want to be a great American, And so I want to be a great American, too. I want to be a great American like too. I want to be a great American like too. I want to be a great American like my enslaved fore like my grandparents my enslaved fore like my grandparents my enslaved fore like my grandparents who fled terror violence and fought for who fled terror violence and fought for who fled terror violence and fought for a better way like my parents who dealt a better way like my parents who dealt a better way like my parents who dealt with the humiliation and degradation of with the humiliation and degradation of with the humiliation and degradation of segregation. It's not the only kind of segregation. It's not the only kind of segregation. It's not the only kind of American but I want to be a great American but I want to be a great American but I want to be a great American. And so, um, American. And so, um, American. And so, um, my heart is in creating a world where my heart is in creating a world where my heart is in creating a world where that becomes easier and easier for more that becomes easier and easier for more that becomes easier and easier for more and more people. Because if I think and more people. Because if I think and more people. Because if I think about America, if I try to reduce it to about America, if I try to reduce it to about America, if I try to reduce it to something,

something, something, I it's it's a place for everybody who I it's it's a place for everybody who I it's it's a place for everybody who who wants better, who who who believes who wants better, who who who believes who wants better, who who who believes in equality, who believes in justice, in equality, who believes in justice, in equality, who believes in justice, who believes in fairness, who believes who believes in fairness, who believes who believes in fairness, who believes in opportunity. That's the essence of in opportunity. That's the essence of in opportunity. That's the essence of it. And so to get there, we have to do it. And so to get there, we have to do it. And so to get there, we have to do some work. And it's been going on for a some work. And it's been going on for a some work. And it's been going on for a long time. It will go on for a lot long time. It will go on for a lot long time. It will go on for a lot longer. But that's what I want. Yeah. longer. But that's what I want. Yeah. longer. But that's what I want. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be a great American in Yeah. I want to be a great American in Yeah. I want to be a great American in that tradition. that tradition. that tradition. >> That's a beautiful recasting then. Not >> That's a beautiful recasting then. Not >> That's a beautiful recasting then. Not what does it mean to choose America, but what does it mean to choose America, but what does it mean to choose America, but what does it mean to choose to be what does it mean to choose to be what does it mean to choose to be >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> a great American? >> a great American? >> a great American? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Always our final question. What are >> Always our final question. What are >> Always our final question. What are three books you would recommend to the three books you would recommend to the three books you would recommend to the audience? [clears throat] audience? [clears throat] audience? [clears throat] >> I think a great book I recently reread >> I think a great book I recently reread >> I think a great book I recently reread was Their Eyes Were Watching God by was Their Eyes Were Watching God by was Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zoran Neil Hursten. Zoran Neil Hursten. Zoran Neil Hursten. Uh I recently Uh I recently Uh I recently um um um uh read uh again uh read uh again uh read uh again uh Le Miserab by Victor Hugo. Powerful. uh Le Miserab by Victor Hugo. Powerful. uh Le Miserab by Victor Hugo. Powerful. And I guess my third book would be And I guess my third book would be And I guess my third book would be in this moment in this moment in this moment uh Phyor Dastoy uh the brothers carv uh Phyor Dastoy uh the brothers carv uh Phyor Dastoy uh the brothers carv which is one of my favorite books in the which is one of my favorite books in the which is one of my favorite books in the world.

world. world. >> Brian Stevenson thank you very much. >> Brian Stevenson thank you very much. >> Brian Stevenson thank you very much. >> You're very welcome. Very welcome. >> You're very welcome. Very welcome. >> You're very welcome. Very welcome. >> [music]