Fmr. Trump NSA on the President’s visit to Saudi Arabia

The meeting that took place The meeting that took place last November last November last November where MBS is welcomed into the White where MBS is welcomed into the White where MBS is welcomed into the White House. You commented on that meeting in House. You commented on that meeting in House. You commented on that meeting in any event and just absolute cold-blooded any event and just absolute cold-blooded any event and just absolute cold-blooded national interest terms. We've got a lot national interest terms. We've got a lot national interest terms. We've got a lot at stake in Saudi Arabia. at stake in Saudi Arabia. at stake in Saudi Arabia. Trump defended the kingdom and MBS. Trump defended the kingdom and MBS. Trump defended the kingdom and MBS. I think that's the right thing to do. I think that's the right thing to do. I think that's the right thing to do. What is cold-blooded national interest What is cold-blooded national interest What is cold-blooded national interest when talking about Saudi Arabia? when talking about Saudi Arabia? when talking about Saudi Arabia? >> Well, national interest means >> Well, national interest means >> Well, national interest means fundamentally protecting fundamentally protecting fundamentally protecting the security of the United States and the security of the United States and the security of the United States and its people and its vital interest around its people and its vital interest around its people and its vital interest around the world. the world. the world. There are a lot of things that we prize There are a lot of things that we prize There are a lot of things that we prize because of our value system. because of our value system. because of our value system. But in international affairs, it's not But in international affairs, it's not But in international affairs, it's not the same as personal relations. the same as personal relations. the same as personal relations. Sometimes you have to make unpleasant Sometimes you have to make unpleasant Sometimes you have to make unpleasant choices and the right choice to make choices and the right choice to make choices and the right choice to make in difficult areas is often to do in difficult areas is often to do in difficult areas is often to do what your interest dictate and maybe not what your interest dictate and maybe not what your interest dictate and maybe not what moral scruples dictate.

what moral scruples dictate. what moral scruples dictate. >> Why is Saudi Arabia important to the >> Why is Saudi Arabia important to the >> Why is Saudi Arabia important to the United States? United States? United States? >> Well, the the Saudis, their role in the >> Well, the the Saudis, their role in the >> Well, the the Saudis, their role in the international oil business, international oil business, international oil business, their position in the their position in the their position in the Islamic world, Islamic world, Islamic world, make it a country that has been critical make it a country that has been critical make it a country that has been critical to the US in one way or another since to the US in one way or another since to the US in one way or another since Franklin Roosevelt met the Saudi king on Franklin Roosevelt met the Saudi king on Franklin Roosevelt met the Saudi king on an American destroyer in World War an American destroyer in World War an American destroyer in World War II. And there have been changes II. And there have been changes II. And there have been changes obviously since then, but the importance obviously since then, but the importance obviously since then, but the importance of the kingdom really has been a fixed of the kingdom really has been a fixed of the kingdom really has been a fixed point in American foreign policy point in American foreign policy point in American foreign policy now for getting on to 80 years. now for getting on to 80 years. now for getting on to 80 years. >> You talk about >> You talk about >> You talk about back in April of 2018 when you came in, back in April of 2018 when you came in, back in April of 2018 when you came in, the one thing the one thing the one thing that was underway was a pressure that was underway was a pressure that was underway was a pressure campaign against Iran. And you had said campaign against Iran. And you had said campaign against Iran. And you had said that MBS remained was pivotal to the that MBS remained was pivotal to the that MBS remained was pivotal to the administration's pressure campaign administration's pressure campaign administration's pressure campaign against Iran. How so? against Iran. How so? against Iran. How so? >> Well, the Saudis have uh for almost the >> Well, the Saudis have uh for almost the >> Well, the Saudis have uh for almost the entire history of the production of oil entire history of the production of oil entire history of the production of oil been the leader of the Gulf Arab been the leader of the Gulf Arab been the leader of the Gulf Arab countries countries countries often in opposition to Iran from the often in opposition to Iran from the often in opposition to Iran from the very earliest days, but the leader of very earliest days, but the leader of very earliest days, but the leader of the Gulf Cooperation Council, the the the Gulf Cooperation Council, the the the Gulf Cooperation Council, the the biggest producer, the most important and biggest producer, the most important and biggest producer, the most important and stability in the region really depends stability in the region really depends stability in the region really depends on on on some kind of ability of the Gulf Arab some kind of ability of the Gulf Arab some kind of ability of the Gulf Arab states to counter Iran and to hold states to counter Iran and to hold states to counter Iran and to hold together and uh since the Islamic together and uh since the Islamic together and uh since the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and and provide an Revolution of 1979 and and provide an Revolution of 1979 and and provide an alternative source of oil and political

alternative source of oil and political alternative source of oil and political stability. stability. stability. >> In the beginning of the administration >> In the beginning of the administration >> In the beginning of the administration even before they took office, uh even before they took office, uh even before they took office, uh the Saudis reached out the Saudis reached out the Saudis reached out to several of the top officials in the to several of the top officials in the to several of the top officials in the incoming administration incoming administration incoming administration and especially to Jared Kushner. and especially to Jared Kushner. and especially to Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner becomes an important Jared Kushner becomes an important Jared Kushner becomes an important person in the administration, a kind of person in the administration, a kind of person in the administration, a kind of point person. Uh and people have looked point person. Uh and people have looked point person. Uh and people have looked at this and at this and at this and >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> criticized it >> criticized it >> criticized it because they said that the because they said that the because they said that the administration was skirting uh administration was skirting uh administration was skirting uh traditional protocol. traditional protocol. traditional protocol. Uh sidelining people like the Secretary Uh sidelining people like the Secretary Uh sidelining people like the Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, for example. of State Rex Tillerson, for example. of State Rex Tillerson, for example. Was that ever something that raised your Was that ever something that raised your Was that ever something that raised your eyebrows? eyebrows? eyebrows? >> Well, Jared could perform whatever >> Well, Jared could perform whatever >> Well, Jared could perform whatever function he wanted to because his function he wanted to because his function he wanted to because his father-in-law was the president and he father-in-law was the president and he father-in-law was the president and he had different interests at different had different interests at different had different interests at different times. times. times. He flitted in and flitted out of issues. He flitted in and flitted out of issues. He flitted in and flitted out of issues. Uh it was not a problem for me because Uh it was not a problem for me because Uh it was not a problem for me because the National Security Council process the National Security Council process the National Security Council process uh rolls along uh without regard to uh rolls along uh without regard to uh rolls along uh without regard to people who flit in and out of it. He was people who flit in and out of it. He was people who flit in and out of it. He was much more a problem, I think, for Mike much more a problem, I think, for Mike much more a problem, I think, for Mike Pompeo at the State Department.

Pompeo at the State Department. Pompeo at the State Department. >> And before that, Rex Tillerson. >> And before that, Rex Tillerson. >> And before that, Rex Tillerson. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. Uh but he admitted uh in an >> Right. Uh but he admitted uh in an >> Right. Uh but he admitted uh in an interview that I've seen that when he interview that I've seen that when he interview that I've seen that when he was first approached by the Saudis, he was first approached by the Saudis, he was first approached by the Saudis, he said, "I don't really know much about said, "I don't really know much about said, "I don't really know much about Saudi Arabia." The Saudis Saudi Arabia." The Saudis Saudi Arabia." The Saudis um had filed a report back to the um had filed a report back to the um had filed a report back to the uh deputy crown prince at that time uh deputy crown prince at that time uh deputy crown prince at that time saying, saying, saying, uh "This is a guy who really is fairly uh "This is a guy who really is fairly uh "This is a guy who really is fairly naive about what's going on here." Did naive about what's going on here." Did naive about what's going on here." Did you ever you ever you ever uh have any concerns about his ability? uh have any concerns about his ability? uh have any concerns about his ability? Was that an issue? Was that an issue? Was that an issue? >> Well, it depended on what he was doing. >> Well, it depended on what he was doing. >> Well, it depended on what he was doing. Uh and since a lot of it looked to be Uh and since a lot of it looked to be Uh and since a lot of it looked to be more dilettante's interest in this issue more dilettante's interest in this issue more dilettante's interest in this issue or that issue or the other issue, as I or that issue or the other issue, as I or that issue or the other issue, as I say, it didn't didn't really say, it didn't didn't really say, it didn't didn't really uh distract my attention. He did get uh distract my attention. He did get uh distract my attention. He did get into some things in terms of immigration into some things in terms of immigration into some things in terms of immigration policy, for example, policy, for example, policy, for example, uh to try and help Trump out. Um but it uh to try and help Trump out. Um but it uh to try and help Trump out. Um but it was really very hard to define what he was really very hard to define what he was really very hard to define what he was there to do until he began to work was there to do until he began to work was there to do until he began to work on his Middle East peace plan, which on his Middle East peace plan, which on his Middle East peace plan, which during my tenure was a a work without during my tenure was a a work without during my tenure was a a work without end. Um and we finally saw the light of end. Um and we finally saw the light of end. Um and we finally saw the light of day after really after I left when it day after really after I left when it day after really after I left when it looked to be a business plan for looked to be a business plan for looked to be a business plan for investment in the Middle East, which investment in the Middle East, which investment in the Middle East, which conveniently was what the he went into conveniently was what the he went into conveniently was what the he went into after he left government.

after he left government. after he left government. >> That was the Abraham Fund. >> That was the Abraham Fund. >> That was the Abraham Fund. >> Through a variety of uh different >> Through a variety of uh different >> Through a variety of uh different permutations, the the whole idea was to permutations, the the whole idea was to permutations, the the whole idea was to attract investment uh into the region attract investment uh into the region attract investment uh into the region and to use that investment uh in the and to use that investment uh in the and to use that investment uh in the West Bank and uh Gaza for the West Bank and uh Gaza for the West Bank and uh Gaza for the Palestinians. Palestinians. Palestinians. >> But the criticism is that this guy comes >> But the criticism is that this guy comes >> But the criticism is that this guy comes in, he has no foreign policy experience, in, he has no foreign policy experience, in, he has no foreign policy experience, uh and that he is essentially the point uh and that he is essentially the point uh and that he is essentially the point person in the administration. Why would person in the administration. Why would person in the administration. Why would that not raise concerns at the National that not raise concerns at the National that not raise concerns at the National Security Council? Security Council? Security Council? >> Because I don't think he did anything >> Because I don't think he did anything >> Because I don't think he did anything substantive. substantive. substantive. >> That was a quick answer. >> That was a quick answer. >> That was a quick answer. >> I I don't know what he was doing for >> I I don't know what he was doing for >> I I don't know what he was doing for himself, but he didn't do anything himself, but he didn't do anything himself, but he didn't do anything substantive. substantive. substantive. >> But he had a very close relationship, >> But he had a very close relationship, >> But he had a very close relationship, did he not, with um Mohammed bin Salman, did he not, with um Mohammed bin Salman, did he not, with um Mohammed bin Salman, the closest of any official. He did. I'm the closest of any official. He did. I'm the closest of any official. He did. I'm sure they had many conversations. That's sure they had many conversations. That's sure they had many conversations. That's why what why what why what interference was caused was more with interference was caused was more with interference was caused was more with the State Department because a lot of the State Department because a lot of the State Department because a lot of those conversations I think never made those conversations I think never made those conversations I think never made it back to the State Department. it back to the State Department. it back to the State Department. >> There was a debate over that first trip >> There was a debate over that first trip >> There was a debate over that first trip that was made. And again, I'm I that was made. And again, I'm I that was made. And again, I'm I apologize, we're back in 2017, before apologize, we're back in 2017, before apologize, we're back in 2017, before your time, but there was a healthy your time, but there was a healthy your time, but there was a healthy debate in the administration over debate in the administration over debate in the administration over whether or not that should be the first whether or not that should be the first whether or not that should be the first visit of President Trump to a foreign visit of President Trump to a foreign visit of President Trump to a foreign country.

country. country. Were you Were you Were you Were you aware of that debate? Were you aware of that debate? Were you aware of that debate? >> I was not. I thought it was unusual. >> I was not. I thought it was unusual. >> I was not. I thought it was unusual. There there are a number of options for There there are a number of options for There there are a number of options for presidents. You can go to Canada first, presidents. You can go to Canada first, presidents. You can go to Canada first, you can go to Mexico first. Whichever you can go to Mexico first. Whichever you can go to Mexico first. Whichever one of those you go to first, you go to one of those you go to first, you go to one of those you go to first, you go to the other one within a few days. the other one within a few days. the other one within a few days. And then your first And then your first And then your first trip outside the hemisphere can be to trip outside the hemisphere can be to trip outside the hemisphere can be to Europe, it can be to Japan. Europe, it can be to Japan. Europe, it can be to Japan. This was the first time it was someplace This was the first time it was someplace This was the first time it was someplace other than those destinations. other than those destinations. other than those destinations. >> And by this time Jared Kushner has a >> And by this time Jared Kushner has a >> And by this time Jared Kushner has a WhatsApp texting relationship with MBS. WhatsApp texting relationship with MBS. WhatsApp texting relationship with MBS. You come onto the job at the National You come onto the job at the National You come onto the job at the National Security Council. And as you said, Security Council. And as you said, Security Council. And as you said, that this was more of a concern for that this was more of a concern for that this was more of a concern for Pompeo at State Pompeo at State Pompeo at State or Tillerson at State. or Tillerson at State. or Tillerson at State. But But But it it's clearly a factor in it it's clearly a factor in it it's clearly a factor in shaping US-Saudi relations, right? shaping US-Saudi relations, right? shaping US-Saudi relations, right? >> Right. There's also nothing that you can >> Right. There's also nothing that you can >> Right. There's also nothing that you can do about it. do about it. do about it. John Kelly, the chief of staff, had John Kelly, the chief of staff, had John Kelly, the chief of staff, had tried to do things like make sure Jared tried to do things like make sure Jared tried to do things like make sure Jared has a legitimate security clearance, has a legitimate security clearance, has a legitimate security clearance, that he's gone through a background that he's gone through a background that he's gone through a background check. They didn't give Jared a check. They didn't give Jared a check. They didn't give Jared a clearance initially. Trump decided to clearance initially. Trump decided to clearance initially. Trump decided to give him one anyway. So my attitude was give him one anyway. So my attitude was give him one anyway. So my attitude was there's nobody who's going to discipline there's nobody who's going to discipline there's nobody who's going to discipline that.

that. that. And I'm just not going to take ownership And I'm just not going to take ownership And I'm just not going to take ownership of it. I could have shortened my tenure of it. I could have shortened my tenure of it. I could have shortened my tenure in the Trump administration considerably in the Trump administration considerably in the Trump administration considerably if uh if I had really focused on it, but if uh if I had really focused on it, but if uh if I had really focused on it, but I didn't see what it was doing I didn't see what it was doing I didn't see what it was doing to real issues of national security. to real issues of national security. to real issues of national security. >> Right after that initial trip uh that >> Right after that initial trip uh that >> Right after that initial trip uh that Trump takes, uh the blockade of Qatar Trump takes, uh the blockade of Qatar Trump takes, uh the blockade of Qatar takes place. Uh there's a lot of takes place. Uh there's a lot of takes place. Uh there's a lot of speculation, people trying to connect speculation, people trying to connect speculation, people trying to connect dots that somehow uh Kushner dots that somehow uh Kushner dots that somehow uh Kushner uh would have been briefed on that uh would have been briefed on that uh would have been briefed on that beforehand, the intentions of the of of beforehand, the intentions of the of of beforehand, the intentions of the of of the Crown Prince. Same with the the Crown Prince. Same with the the Crown Prince. Same with the Ritz-Carlton affair. I mean, so in that Ritz-Carlton affair. I mean, so in that Ritz-Carlton affair. I mean, so in that way he had played way he had played way he had played perhaps perhaps perhaps a a pivotal role at least in a a pivotal role at least in a a pivotal role at least in understanding and maybe approving cer- understanding and maybe approving cer- understanding and maybe approving cer- certain of these moves of the Crown certain of these moves of the Crown certain of these moves of the Crown Prince. Prince. Prince. >> Well, those pre-dated my arrival. I >> Well, those pre-dated my arrival. I >> Well, those pre-dated my arrival. I don't know. It's uh don't know. It's uh don't know. It's uh it's certainly a way to cut out the it's certainly a way to cut out the it's certainly a way to cut out the president's chief advisers uh on matters president's chief advisers uh on matters president's chief advisers uh on matters that could be important, and to the that could be important, and to the that could be important, and to the extent you're cut out and don't know extent you're cut out and don't know extent you're cut out and don't know about it, you don't really know what the about it, you don't really know what the about it, you don't really know what the effect has been.

effect has been. effect has been. Uh but to have any Uh but to have any Uh but to have any specific lasting effect specific lasting effect specific lasting effect uh somebody has to communicate to the uh somebody has to communicate to the uh somebody has to communicate to the rest of the US government that something rest of the US government that something rest of the US government that something has happened. has happened. has happened. And uh I found very few things came out And uh I found very few things came out And uh I found very few things came out of whatever Jared was doing that of whatever Jared was doing that of whatever Jared was doing that indicated that something was actually indicated that something was actually indicated that something was actually happening. happening. happening. >> It's kind of amazing to sit here and >> It's kind of amazing to sit here and >> It's kind of amazing to sit here and listen to you say that listen to you say that listen to you say that um you know, this was just something you um you know, this was just something you um you know, this was just something you had to accept. I mean, it's like had to accept. I mean, it's like had to accept. I mean, it's like visiting somebody's home and their child visiting somebody's home and their child visiting somebody's home and their child is on, you know, running and making a is on, you know, running and making a is on, you know, running and making a nuisance perhaps, or perhaps not, but nuisance perhaps, or perhaps not, but nuisance perhaps, or perhaps not, but you just have to accept that. you just have to accept that. you just have to accept that. >> Well, let me give you an example. Towar- >> Well, let me give you an example. Towar- >> Well, let me give you an example. Towar- toward the end of my tenure uh toward the end of my tenure uh toward the end of my tenure uh Trump visited uh Moon Jae-in, the Trump visited uh Moon Jae-in, the Trump visited uh Moon Jae-in, the president of South Korea. In Seoul, president of South Korea. In Seoul, president of South Korea. In Seoul, that's when he later went up to the DMZ that's when he later went up to the DMZ that's when he later went up to the DMZ to meet meet with Kim Jong-un. And so we to meet meet with Kim Jong-un. And so we to meet meet with Kim Jong-un. And so we were having the formal bilateral meeting were having the formal bilateral meeting were having the formal bilateral meeting between Trump and Moon. between Trump and Moon. between Trump and Moon. Uh I was there, Pompeo was there, a few Uh I was there, Pompeo was there, a few Uh I was there, Pompeo was there, a few other, uh, advisors, and in came Jared other, uh, advisors, and in came Jared other, uh, advisors, and in came Jared and Ivanka and Ivanka and Ivanka to sit in the meeting.

I I'd never seen anything like it. I I'd never seen anything like it. Uh, Uh, Uh, nobody said anything. What were you nobody said anything. What were you nobody said anything. What were you going to say? Tell them to get out? going to say? Tell them to get out? going to say? Tell them to get out? Have the president then overrule you? So, you just had to accept it. So, you just had to accept it. Well, or or you could resign at some Well, or or you could resign at some Well, or or you could resign at some point. I mean, I didn't resign over point. I mean, I didn't resign over point. I mean, I didn't resign over Jared Kushner, but eventually, uh, Jared Kushner, but eventually, uh, Jared Kushner, but eventually, uh, that's what happens. Right. that's what happens. Right. that's what happens. Right. Uh, so we get up into 2018, um, Uh, so we get up into 2018, um, Uh, so we get up into 2018, um, and you have this, and you have this, and you have this, uh, uh, uh, huge test of the United States, uh, huge test of the United States, uh, huge test of the United States, uh, relationship with Saudi Arabia when relationship with Saudi Arabia when relationship with Saudi Arabia when Jamal Khashoggi is murdered. Jamal Khashoggi is murdered. Jamal Khashoggi is murdered. Um, Um, Um, you're there at the time. Uh, you are, you're there at the time. Uh, you are, you're there at the time. Uh, you are, um, um, um, in a in a in a meeting in the White House. You've meeting in the White House. You've meeting in the White House. You've written about it, uh, as to how to deal written about it, uh, as to how to deal written about it, uh, as to how to deal with it. Can you take us there? Put us with it. Can you take us there? Put us with it. Can you take us there? Put us in the room? in the room? in the room? The The reaction, obviously, was blowing The The reaction, obviously, was blowing The The reaction, obviously, was blowing up around the world to, uh, to what had up around the world to, uh, to what had up around the world to, uh, to what had happened to Khashoggi, and and we had to happened to Khashoggi, and and we had to happened to Khashoggi, and and we had to decide what our posture would be, to decide what our posture would be, to decide what our posture would be, to decide what what we thought the cause of decide what what we thought the cause of decide what what we thought the cause of the, the, the, uh, murder had been, and, uh, uh, murder had been, and, uh, uh, murder had been, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, I was surprised to find almost I was surprised to find almost I was surprised to find almost immediately, without discussion, that immediately, without discussion, that immediately, without discussion, that Trump had decided that we were going to Trump had decided that we were going to Trump had decided that we were going to stick with the Saudis on it. Uh, not uh, stick with the Saudis on it. Uh, not uh, stick with the Saudis on it. Uh, not uh, berate them in public, but that we were berate them in public, but that we were berate them in public, but that we were going to support, uh, the Saudis. We going to support, uh, the Saudis. We going to support, uh, the Saudis. We talked about a number of things like, talked about a number of things like, talked about a number of things like, uh, suggestion Mike Pompeo and I talked uh, suggestion Mike Pompeo and I talked uh, suggestion Mike Pompeo and I talked about that he go to the kingdom, about that he go to the kingdom, about that he go to the kingdom, uh, to express our concern and do a uh, to express our concern and do a uh, to express our concern and do a little fact-finding, as it were, which little fact-finding, as it were, which little fact-finding, as it were, which he did. And that was accepted, but the

he did. And that was accepted, but the he did. And that was accepted, but the president, uh, was determined to put out president, uh, was determined to put out president, uh, was determined to put out a statement very quickly. Uh, he, uh, a statement very quickly. Uh, he, uh, a statement very quickly. Uh, he, uh, had Pompeo drafted, uh, Pompeo sent me a had Pompeo drafted, uh, Pompeo sent me a had Pompeo drafted, uh, Pompeo sent me a draft. I thought, draft. I thought, draft. I thought, uh, it was, uh, it was not what it uh, it was, uh, it was not what it uh, it was, uh, it was not what it should be, and I said, "Look, we've got should be, and I said, "Look, we've got should be, and I said, "Look, we've got to try and hold this back a little bit." to try and hold this back a little bit." to try and hold this back a little bit." Pompeo said, "No, he said he wants a Pompeo said, "No, he said he wants a Pompeo said, "No, he said he wants a statement. I'm going to give him the statement. I'm going to give him the statement. I'm going to give him the statement." And indeed, it was issued statement." And indeed, it was issued statement." And indeed, it was issued pretty much as drafted. pretty much as drafted. pretty much as drafted. >> That was a statement, I think, called >> That was a statement, I think, called >> That was a statement, I think, called the standing with Saudi Arabia. the standing with Saudi Arabia. the standing with Saudi Arabia. >> Uh I don't remember the title, but if I >> Uh I don't remember the title, but if I >> Uh I don't remember the title, but if I wrote it in the book, I'm sure that's wrote it in the book, I'm sure that's wrote it in the book, I'm sure that's what it was called. what it was called. what it was called. >> Right. Well, it's it's um >> Right. Well, it's it's um >> Right. Well, it's it's um >> I'm not sure when we saw it it had a >> I'm not sure when we saw it it had a >> I'm not sure when we saw it it had a title. title. title. >> Right. So, you thought we should do what >> Right. So, you thought we should do what >> Right. So, you thought we should do what instead? instead? instead? >> I I just I thought the statement was >> I I just I thought the statement was >> I I just I thought the statement was inappropriate. I'm not sure how I would inappropriate. I'm not sure how I would inappropriate. I'm not sure how I would have drafted I don't remember have drafted I don't remember have drafted I don't remember uh at this uh at this divide, but uh at this uh at this divide, but uh at this uh at this divide, but um um um when you come down to it, the choice is when you come down to it, the choice is when you come down to it, the choice is do you ostracize the Saudis do you ostracize the Saudis do you ostracize the Saudis for what was likely behavior committed for what was likely behavior committed for what was likely behavior committed at their behest, uh or at their behest, uh or at their behest, uh or uh do you try and move past it and keep uh do you try and move past it and keep uh do you try and move past it and keep the critical interests of the regime uh the critical interests of the regime uh the critical interests of the regime uh for the United States in mind. And I for the United States in mind. And I for the United States in mind. And I thought ultimately, it was important to thought ultimately, it was important to thought ultimately, it was important to keep them close. And in my mind, I had keep them close. And in my mind, I had keep them close. And in my mind, I had that verified some months later that verified some months later that verified some months later uh when I met with uh Vladimir Putin in uh when I met with uh Vladimir Putin in uh when I met with uh Vladimir Putin in Moscow, Moscow, Moscow, and the subject of Khashoggi's uh murder and the subject of Khashoggi's uh murder and the subject of Khashoggi's uh murder came up, and uh we had a brief came up, and uh we had a brief came up, and uh we had a brief discussion, and he said to me, "Well, if discussion, and he said to me, "Well, if discussion, and he said to me, "Well, if the United States doesn't want to sell the United States doesn't want to sell the United States doesn't want to sell arms to Saudi Arabia, we'll sell them arms to Saudi Arabia, we'll sell them arms to Saudi Arabia, we'll sell them arms. That's it right there."

arms. That's it right there." arms. That's it right there." >> Yeah, that underscores what you mean >> Yeah, that underscores what you mean >> Yeah, that underscores what you mean when you say that there are interests when you say that there are interests when you say that there are interests besides human rights. besides human rights. besides human rights. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But you say that you wouldn't have done >> But you say that you wouldn't have done >> But you say that you wouldn't have done it that way. I mean, the president uh it that way. I mean, the president uh it that way. I mean, the president uh was quite uh I guess I would say was quite uh I guess I would say was quite uh I guess I would say uh uh uh casual or flippant about it. He said, casual or flippant about it. He said, casual or flippant about it. He said, "Well, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Uh "Well, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Uh "Well, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Uh but we're going to stand with Saudi but we're going to stand with Saudi but we're going to stand with Saudi Arabia." What would you have suggested Arabia." What would you have suggested Arabia." What would you have suggested they do instead? they do instead? they do instead? >> Well, I thought we should have waited >> Well, I thought we should have waited >> Well, I thought we should have waited and maybe found out a few more facts. and maybe found out a few more facts. and maybe found out a few more facts. Um Um Um uh uh uh this was at a time when Ivanka was this was at a time when Ivanka was this was at a time when Ivanka was coming under criticism for using her coming under criticism for using her coming under criticism for using her uh private cell phone for perhaps for uh private cell phone for perhaps for uh private cell phone for perhaps for government communications and uh was government communications and uh was government communications and uh was pretty clear that putting this statement pretty clear that putting this statement pretty clear that putting this statement out about Saudi Arabia would overwhelm out about Saudi Arabia would overwhelm out about Saudi Arabia would overwhelm news coverage of that issue. news coverage of that issue. news coverage of that issue. >> Do you think that was behind it? >> Do you think that was behind it? >> Do you think that was behind it? >> Wouldn't surprise me. >> Wouldn't surprise me. >> Wouldn't surprise me. >> Wouldn't surprise you. I mean, did you >> Wouldn't surprise you. I mean, did you >> Wouldn't surprise you. I mean, did you have any doubt as to who ordered that have any doubt as to who ordered that have any doubt as to who ordered that murder? murder? murder? >> Well, I think it was somebody in the >> Well, I think it was somebody in the >> Well, I think it was somebody in the Saudi government. Now, whether it was uh Saudi government. Now, whether it was uh Saudi government. Now, whether it was uh an official with the authority to do it an official with the authority to do it an official with the authority to do it or whether it was somebody who said as or whether it was somebody who said as or whether it was somebody who said as in the murder of Thomas a Beckett, will in the murder of Thomas a Beckett, will in the murder of Thomas a Beckett, will someone someone someone rid me of this meddlesome cleric? I rid me of this meddlesome cleric? I rid me of this meddlesome cleric? I don't know the answer to that.

don't know the answer to that. don't know the answer to that. >> You spoke with uh MBS. >> You spoke with uh MBS. >> You spoke with uh MBS. Can you recount that conversation? Can you recount that conversation? Can you recount that conversation? >> Is this the one where Jared comes in and >> Is this the one where Jared comes in and >> Is this the one where Jared comes in and puts him on the phone? puts him on the phone? puts him on the phone? >> Here's what you wrote. Kushner asked how >> Here's what you wrote. Kushner asked how >> Here's what you wrote. Kushner asked how we should respond to the growing we should respond to the growing we should respond to the growing Khashoggi storm. My advice to the Saudis Khashoggi storm. My advice to the Saudis Khashoggi storm. My advice to the Saudis uh was to get the facts out immediately, uh was to get the facts out immediately, uh was to get the facts out immediately, whatever they were, and get it over whatever they were, and get it over whatever they were, and get it over with. Kushner agreed and the next day we with. Kushner agreed and the next day we with. Kushner agreed and the next day we spoke with Crown Prince Mohammed bin spoke with Crown Prince Mohammed bin spoke with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman emphasizing how seriously the Salman emphasizing how seriously the Salman emphasizing how seriously the issue was already viewed. issue was already viewed. issue was already viewed. >> Yeah, Jared had him on his cell phone. >> Yeah, Jared had him on his cell phone. >> Yeah, Jared had him on his cell phone. >> And recount that conversation, what you >> And recount that conversation, what you >> And recount that conversation, what you said to the Crown Prince and what he said to the Crown Prince and what he said to the Crown Prince and what he said in response. said in response. said in response. >> Well, I said my advice would be to find >> Well, I said my advice would be to find >> Well, I said my advice would be to find out what the facts were and get it all out what the facts were and get it all out what the facts were and get it all out as quickly as possible and get it out as quickly as possible and get it out as quickly as possible and get it behind us. behind us. behind us. >> How did he respond to that? >> How did he respond to that? >> How did he respond to that? >> I think he sounded affirmative. >> I think he sounded affirmative. >> I think he sounded affirmative. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, he was at the beginning of this after he was at the beginning of this after he was at the beginning of this after this murder coming up with alibis. this murder coming up with alibis. this murder coming up with alibis. Jamal Khashoggi walked out of the Jamal Khashoggi walked out of the Jamal Khashoggi walked out of the embassy alive or the consulate, excuse embassy alive or the consulate, excuse embassy alive or the consulate, excuse me. Um me. Um me. Um other such things.

other such things. other such things. Um and then they settled on a a rogue Um and then they settled on a a rogue Um and then they settled on a a rogue operation theory. operation theory. operation theory. >> Well, Trump talked to the king himself, >> Well, Trump talked to the king himself, >> Well, Trump talked to the king himself, which was a rare conversation. which was a rare conversation. which was a rare conversation. And uh the king said quite emphatically, And uh the king said quite emphatically, And uh the king said quite emphatically, I uh I'm appalled at the murder of any I uh I'm appalled at the murder of any I uh I'm appalled at the murder of any of my uh subjects and uh we're going to of my uh subjects and uh we're going to of my uh subjects and uh we're going to get to the bottom of this. get to the bottom of this. get to the bottom of this. And uh I listened into the conversation. And uh I listened into the conversation. And uh I listened into the conversation. I don't speak Arabic, but I heard the I don't speak Arabic, but I heard the I don't speak Arabic, but I heard the translator and Trump came away convinced translator and Trump came away convinced translator and Trump came away convinced of the king's seriousness. of the king's seriousness. of the king's seriousness. >> But yet they had determined even before >> But yet they had determined even before >> But yet they had determined even before there was an investigation that the there was an investigation that the there was an investigation that the Crown Prince was not involved, which is Crown Prince was not involved, which is Crown Prince was not involved, which is doesn't make much sense. doesn't make much sense. doesn't make much sense. >> Well, you know, you can you can decide >> Well, you know, you can you can decide >> Well, you know, you can you can decide to get into the specifics of it or you to get into the specifics of it or you to get into the specifics of it or you can do basically what Trump did, which can do basically what Trump did, which can do basically what Trump did, which is to say we're going to stick with the is to say we're going to stick with the is to say we're going to stick with the kingdom and the you know, kingdom and the you know, kingdom and the you know, commentators can commentate. commentators can commentate. commentators can commentate. >> And that's the >> And that's the >> And that's the I mean, you would say the bottom line I mean, you would say the bottom line I mean, you would say the bottom line that was correct that we had to consider that was correct that we had to consider that was correct that we had to consider our interests over the death of the our interests over the death of the our interests over the death of the murder of this one guy.

murder of this one guy. murder of this one guy. >> Assuming everything >> Assuming everything >> Assuming everything turned out to be contrary to what the turned out to be contrary to what the turned out to be contrary to what the the official line was, it was still an the official line was, it was still an the official line was, it was still an American interest to keep the American interest to keep the American interest to keep the relationship with the Saudis. I think relationship with the Saudis. I think relationship with the Saudis. I think when Biden came into office, he damaged when Biden came into office, he damaged when Biden came into office, he damaged the relationship seriously. And and and the relationship seriously. And and and the relationship seriously. And and and I think that harmed American security I think that harmed American security I think that harmed American security interests. interests. interests. >> How so? How did he damage it? >> How so? How did he damage it? >> How so? How did he damage it? >> Because he he >> Because he he >> Because he he he gave the Gulf Arabs, and not just he gave the Gulf Arabs, and not just he gave the Gulf Arabs, and not just Saudi Arabia, but all of them the Saudi Arabia, but all of them the Saudi Arabia, but all of them the impression, as had Barack Obama, that impression, as had Barack Obama, that impression, as had Barack Obama, that reaching an agreement with Iran on their reaching an agreement with Iran on their reaching an agreement with Iran on their nuclear program was more important than nuclear program was more important than nuclear program was more important than the concerns of the Gulf Arab states, the concerns of the Gulf Arab states, the concerns of the Gulf Arab states, more important than the concerns of more important than the concerns of more important than the concerns of Israel, more important than the concerns Israel, more important than the concerns Israel, more important than the concerns of friends and allies of of ours right of friends and allies of of ours right of friends and allies of of ours right in the same region. And it took a while in the same region. And it took a while in the same region. And it took a while to get that back. There were other to get that back. There were other to get that back. There were other things that Biden did basically coming things that Biden did basically coming things that Biden did basically coming out against, you know, petroleum as a out against, you know, petroleum as a out against, you know, petroleum as a source of energy source of energy source of energy that also pushed the kingdom away. And I that also pushed the kingdom away. And I that also pushed the kingdom away. And I think those were mistakes. It's a think those were mistakes. It's a think those were mistakes. It's a one of the one of the clichés of one of the one of the clichés of one of the one of the clichés of American history is when Franklin American history is when Franklin American history is when Franklin Roosevelt, speaking of uh the then ruler Roosevelt, speaking of uh the then ruler Roosevelt, speaking of uh the then ruler of Guatemala, I think it was, uh said, of Guatemala, I think it was, uh said, of Guatemala, I think it was, uh said, "Well, he he uh he's he may be an SOB, "Well, he he uh he's he may be an SOB, "Well, he he uh he's he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB." And I'm with but he's our SOB." And I'm with but he's our SOB." And I'm with Roosevelt on that.

Roosevelt on that. Roosevelt on that. >> At the end of the day, Project 2030 >> At the end of the day, Project 2030 >> At the end of the day, Project 2030 succeeds, um succeeds, um succeeds, um will Saudi Arabia be vital? will Saudi Arabia be vital? will Saudi Arabia be vital? >> Well, I think it's going to be vital for >> Well, I think it's going to be vital for >> Well, I think it's going to be vital for a long time uh a long time uh a long time uh given its geographic position, given the given its geographic position, given the given its geographic position, given the continued importance of oil and gas in continued importance of oil and gas in continued importance of oil and gas in uh the global economy. uh the global economy. uh the global economy. Uh we'll see what happens in Iran. Uh we'll see what happens in Iran. Uh we'll see what happens in Iran. Uh but uh e- even if if we return to Uh but uh e- even if if we return to Uh but uh e- even if if we return to pre-1979 pre-1979 pre-1979 friendship to the United States, friendship to the United States, friendship to the United States, uh the position of Saudi Arabia and the uh the position of Saudi Arabia and the uh the position of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Arabs as a whole will still be Gulf Arabs as a whole will still be Gulf Arabs as a whole will still be critical to our foreign policy. critical to our foreign policy. critical to our foreign policy. >> But what I meant is if he achieves his >> But what I meant is if he achieves his >> But what I meant is if he achieves his goal, which is to wean Saudi Arabia off goal, which is to wean Saudi Arabia off goal, which is to wean Saudi Arabia off of oil, then what will be his leverage of oil, then what will be his leverage of oil, then what will be his leverage and his importance to the US? and his importance to the US? and his importance to the US? >> Well, I don't think they're going to >> Well, I don't think they're going to >> Well, I don't think they're going to wean themselves off the importance of wean themselves off the importance of wean themselves off the importance of oil, and I think that's already been oil, and I think that's already been oil, and I think that's already been recognized. I I I look at Project 30 as recognized. I I I look at Project 30 as recognized. I I I look at Project 30 as a way to modernize Saudi society. And a a way to modernize Saudi society. And a a way to modernize Saudi society. And a daring gamble given the Shah of Iran daring gamble given the Shah of Iran daring gamble given the Shah of Iran once tried to modernize Iranian society, once tried to modernize Iranian society, once tried to modernize Iranian society, and we got the Ayatollah Khomeini.

and we got the Ayatollah Khomeini. and we got the Ayatollah Khomeini. >> And that story is playing out. You had >> And that story is playing out. You had >> And that story is playing out. You had said um you wrote in your book uh that said um you wrote in your book uh that said um you wrote in your book uh that Trump uh wanted to call bin Salman to Trump uh wanted to call bin Salman to Trump uh wanted to call bin Salman to tell him uh the statement was coming tell him uh the statement was coming tell him uh the statement was coming out, the statement of standing with out, the statement of standing with out, the statement of standing with Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia. Um Um Um and stating that whether or not he did and stating that whether or not he did and stating that whether or not he did or he did it or not, we're standing with or he did it or not, we're standing with or he did it or not, we're standing with Saudi Arabia. And you wrote in Saudi Arabia. And you wrote in Saudi Arabia. And you wrote in hard-nosed hard-nosed hard-nosed political geopolitical terms, Trump's political geopolitical terms, Trump's political geopolitical terms, Trump's was the only sensible approach. was the only sensible approach. was the only sensible approach. No one excused Khashoggi's murder, and No one excused Khashoggi's murder, and No one excused Khashoggi's murder, and few doubted it was a serious mistake. few doubted it was a serious mistake. few doubted it was a serious mistake. But whether you liked it or not, we had But whether you liked it or not, we had But whether you liked it or not, we had significant uh interests at stake. significant uh interests at stake. significant uh interests at stake. >> Sounds good to me. >> Sounds good to me. >> Sounds good to me. >> Yeah, you go by that. Okay. >> Yeah, you go by that. Okay. >> Yeah, you go by that. Okay. You also wrote, which I which we You also wrote, which I which we You also wrote, which I which we highlighted here, uh Trump wasn't highlighted here, uh Trump wasn't highlighted here, uh Trump wasn't necessarily deciding on the basis of necessarily deciding on the basis of necessarily deciding on the basis of geostrategic reality, but on the US jobs geostrategic reality, but on the US jobs geostrategic reality, but on the US jobs generated by the arms sales he ended up generated by the arms sales he ended up generated by the arms sales he ended up in more or less and he ended up in more in more or less and he ended up in more in more or less and he ended up in more or less the right place.

or less the right place. or less the right place. >> Well, Trump Trump's view of uh >> Well, Trump Trump's view of uh >> Well, Trump Trump's view of uh international affairs is it's based on international affairs is it's based on international affairs is it's based on personal relationships between heads of personal relationships between heads of personal relationships between heads of state and it has manifested itself in state and it has manifested itself in state and it has manifested itself in individual economic transactions. That's individual economic transactions. That's individual economic transactions. That's how he sees the world. Uh the arms sales how he sees the world. Uh the arms sales how he sees the world. Uh the arms sales to Saudi Arabia are an important to Saudi Arabia are an important to Saudi Arabia are an important component uh of our uh defense aerospace component uh of our uh defense aerospace component uh of our uh defense aerospace and defense industry business uh and a and defense industry business uh and a and defense industry business uh and a secure Saudi Arabia is important to us secure Saudi Arabia is important to us secure Saudi Arabia is important to us in the geography, the political in the geography, the political in the geography, the political geography of the Middle East. But there geography of the Middle East. But there geography of the Middle East. But there are larger strategic questions as well are larger strategic questions as well are larger strategic questions as well that go beyond rolling up arms sales for that go beyond rolling up arms sales for that go beyond rolling up arms sales for a couple hundred million dollars, a couple hundred million dollars, a couple hundred million dollars, however important that may be. however important that may be. however important that may be. >> You took a lot of >> You took a lot of >> You took a lot of uh a pushback when you commented to the uh a pushback when you commented to the uh a pushback when you commented to the press corps, it got quoted, perhaps uh press corps, it got quoted, perhaps uh press corps, it got quoted, perhaps uh well, that that why should I listen to well, that that why should I listen to well, that that why should I listen to the tape? the tape? the tape? You seemed uh equally or you were seen You seemed uh equally or you were seen You seemed uh equally or you were seen as equivalently equally flippant uh as as equivalently equally flippant uh as as equivalently equally flippant uh as the president when he said, "Maybe did, the president when he said, "Maybe did, the president when he said, "Maybe did, maybe didn't."

maybe didn't." maybe didn't." >> What what was the tape going to tell >> What what was the tape going to tell >> What what was the tape going to tell you? >> Well, it was going to I mean, >> Well, it was going to I mean, >> He was dead at the time. >> He was dead at the time. >> He was dead at the time. >> He was dead at the time, but we we know >> He was dead at the time, but we we know >> He was dead at the time, but we we know that the guys that carried out the that the guys that carried out the that the guys that carried out the murder at the time, murder at the time, murder at the time, um um um were reporting back to the royal court. were reporting back to the royal court. were reporting back to the royal court. >> I I don't speak Arabic. >> I I don't speak Arabic. >> I I don't speak Arabic. >> Yeah, but you work you're >> Yeah, but you work you're >> Yeah, but you work you're you're you work with translators. you're you work with translators. you're you work with translators. >> I I know what was on the tape. I just >> I I know what was on the tape. I just >> I I know what was on the tape. I just didn't feel I had to listen to didn't feel I had to listen to didn't feel I had to listen to >> I know, but there are optics. There are >> I know, but there are optics. There are >> I know, but there are optics. There are there are considerations. I mean the there are considerations. I mean the there are considerations. I mean the president when he president when he president when he >> I I just think that's violence porn. If >> I I just think that's violence porn. If >> I I just think that's violence porn. If you want to listen to the tape, listen you want to listen to the tape, listen you want to listen to the tape, listen to the tape. I understand what was on to the tape. I understand what was on to the tape. I understand what was on the tape. the tape. the tape. >> But did the president ever in your >> But did the president ever in your >> But did the president ever in your presence bring up to the crown prince presence bring up to the crown prince presence bring up to the crown prince the murder? the murder? the murder? >> I don't think >> I don't think >> I don't think Trump spoke to the crown prince. He Trump spoke to the crown prince. He Trump spoke to the crown prince. He spoke to the king. This is at the time spoke to the king. This is at the time spoke to the king. This is at the time shortly after the murder.

shortly after the murder. shortly after the murder. I I I don't think he spoke to the crown don't think he spoke to the crown don't think he spoke to the crown prince. prince. prince. >> Did human rights >> Did human rights >> Did human rights come up when Trump spoke with MBS? come up when Trump spoke with MBS? come up when Trump spoke with MBS? >> Not at the meeting I was at, no. >> Not at the meeting I was at, no. >> Not at the meeting I was at, no. >> Not at all? >> Not at all? >> Not at all? >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> I mean this is the criticism that yes, >> I mean this is the criticism that yes, >> I mean this is the criticism that yes, there are American interests at stake there are American interests at stake there are American interests at stake here, but there was also American here, but there was also American here, but there was also American values. Um and that the President Trump values. Um and that the President Trump values. Um and that the President Trump uh yourself didn't do enough to stress uh yourself didn't do enough to stress uh yourself didn't do enough to stress uh that side of the equation. uh that side of the equation. uh that side of the equation. >> Well, it It It's It's a fair criticism if you It It's It's a fair criticism if you think that uh you have to mention think that uh you have to mention think that uh you have to mention everything in a relationship when you everything in a relationship when you everything in a relationship when you sit down with a foreign head of state. sit down with a foreign head of state. sit down with a foreign head of state. It was clear Trump wasn't going to raise It was clear Trump wasn't going to raise It was clear Trump wasn't going to raise it and uh I don't think he did. it and uh I don't think he did. it and uh I don't think he did. >> Well, right, but the critics look at >> Well, right, but the critics look at >> Well, right, but the critics look at human human human >> It wasn't just on >> It wasn't just on >> It wasn't just on uh on Saudi Arabia. In other words, he uh on Saudi Arabia. In other words, he uh on Saudi Arabia. In other words, he wasn't talking about human rights to wasn't talking about human rights to wasn't talking about human rights to everybody else, but not to MBS. He everybody else, but not to MBS. He everybody else, but not to MBS. He didn't talk to anybody about human didn't talk to anybody about human didn't talk to anybody about human rights.

rights. rights. >> What does that tell us? >> What does that tell us? >> What does that tell us? >> Well, it tells you a lot about Donald >> Well, it tells you a lot about Donald >> Well, it tells you a lot about Donald Trump that that's he he wanted to talk Trump that that's he he wanted to talk Trump that that's he he wanted to talk about transactions. about transactions. about transactions. >> Can you say a little more about that? >> Can you say a little more about that? >> Can you say a little more about that? >> Um >> Um >> Um It It His idea of international affairs It It His idea of international affairs It It His idea of international affairs is the personal relationships of the is the personal relationships of the is the personal relationships of the heads of state uh and being able to say heads of state uh and being able to say heads of state uh and being able to say I made deals on economic [clears throat] I made deals on economic [clears throat] I made deals on economic [clears throat] transactions. That that really is transactions. That that really is transactions. That that really is the bulk of of his approach to things. the bulk of of his approach to things. the bulk of of his approach to things. And it meant that a lot of other issues, And it meant that a lot of other issues, And it meant that a lot of other issues, including critical geostrategic issues, including critical geostrategic issues, including critical geostrategic issues, uh, didn't get talked about. And uh, didn't get talked about. And uh, didn't get talked about. And including human rights. Uh, I I don't I including human rights. Uh, I I don't I including human rights. Uh, I I don't I don't recall him speaking about human don't recall him speaking about human don't recall him speaking about human rights in in any of the meetings he had. rights in in any of the meetings he had. rights in in any of the meetings he had. >> Would you have advocated that that come >> Would you have advocated that that come >> Would you have advocated that that come up, that pressure be put on the Crown up, that pressure be put on the Crown up, that pressure be put on the Crown Prince to clean up his act? Prince to clean up his act? Prince to clean up his act? >> I I think, uh, when Pompeo went out to >> I I think, uh, when Pompeo went out to >> I I think, uh, when Pompeo went out to the to the, uh, kingdom, that that he the to the, uh, kingdom, that that he the to the, uh, kingdom, that that he made those points. I think others made made those points. I think others made made those points. I think others made those points. those points. those points. >> I mean, that was after the Khashoggi >> I mean, that was after the Khashoggi >> I mean, that was after the Khashoggi murder, but I mean, there's more than murder, but I mean, there's more than murder, but I mean, there's more than just that murder that took place. Many just that murder that took place. Many just that murder that took place. Many people who had tweeted something that people who had tweeted something that people who had tweeted something that was seen as critical of the Crown Prince was seen as critical of the Crown Prince was seen as critical of the Crown Prince got put in jail, got put in jail, got put in jail, uh, academics, uh, uh, academics, uh, uh, academics, uh, writers, others.

writers, others. writers, others. There was There was There was a a a bad record bad record bad record before the Khashoggi murder, before the Khashoggi murder, before the Khashoggi murder, uh, that perhaps got more, uh, that perhaps got more, uh, that perhaps got more, uh, attention than anything else. uh, attention than anything else. uh, attention than anything else. But But But to paraphrase some of the human rights to paraphrase some of the human rights to paraphrase some of the human rights advocates that I've spoken to, we advocates that I've spoken to, we advocates that I've spoken to, we essentially enabled him to feel like he essentially enabled him to feel like he essentially enabled him to feel like he could get away with whatever he needed could get away with whatever he needed could get away with whatever he needed to do, and in fact, he got away with to do, and in fact, he got away with to do, and in fact, he got away with murder. murder. murder. >> Well, people can say that, but the >> Well, people can say that, but the >> Well, people can say that, but the question is, what what effect do you question is, what what effect do you question is, what what effect do you think you're going to have? There are think you're going to have? There are think you're going to have? There are certainly some situations where, uh, certainly some situations where, uh, certainly some situations where, uh, talking about human rights is important. talking about human rights is important. talking about human rights is important. Uh, I think in this case, it wouldn't Uh, I think in this case, it wouldn't Uh, I think in this case, it wouldn't have made any difference, and indeed, if have made any difference, and indeed, if have made any difference, and indeed, if the Biden experience is any indication, the Biden experience is any indication, the Biden experience is any indication, it would have impaired our ability to it would have impaired our ability to it would have impaired our ability to achieve other interests that we were achieve other interests that we were achieve other interests that we were after. after. after. >> It wouldn't have made any difference. >> It wouldn't have made any difference. >> It wouldn't have made any difference. >> I I I I'm open to the suggestion of what >> I I I I'm open to the suggestion of what >> I I I I'm open to the suggestion of what the difference would be. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. Um, you would know better.

Um, you would know better. Um, you would know better. >> No, I I can tell you how this goes in >> No, I I can tell you how this goes in >> No, I I can tell you how this goes in meetings, not on human rights, but on a meetings, not on human rights, but on a meetings, not on human rights, but on a lot of subjects. You can sit down and lot of subjects. You can sit down and lot of subjects. You can sit down and you can say, "Here are our talking you can say, "Here are our talking you can say, "Here are our talking points." And the other side says, "Here points." And the other side says, "Here points." And the other side says, "Here are our talking points." Then you can are our talking points." Then you can are our talking points." Then you can turn to the next page in the briefing turn to the next page in the briefing turn to the next page in the briefing book. I I consider that a waste of time. book. I I consider that a waste of time. book. I I consider that a waste of time. If I had If I had had another meeting If I had If I had had another meeting If I had If I had had another meeting with the Chinese official a counterpart, with the Chinese official a counterpart, with the Chinese official a counterpart, where I listened to the 5, 10, or where I listened to the 5, 10, or where I listened to the 5, 10, or 15-minute version of how Taiwan belonged 15-minute version of how Taiwan belonged 15-minute version of how Taiwan belonged to them, uh I would have been happy to them, uh I would have been happy to them, uh I would have been happy never to have had to meet another never to have had to meet another never to have had to meet another Chinese official. It just is It just Chinese official. It just is It just Chinese official. It just is It just It's pointless for them to raise it. Uh It's pointless for them to raise it. Uh It's pointless for them to raise it. Uh but they do it anyway, and I I just but they do it anyway, and I I just but they do it anyway, and I I just don't believe in doing pointless things. don't believe in doing pointless things. don't believe in doing pointless things. >> Do you think that >> Do you think that >> Do you think that there should have been more emphasis on there should have been more emphasis on there should have been more emphasis on balancing American balancing American balancing American interest and values, civil uh human interest and values, civil uh human interest and values, civil uh human rights? rights? rights? Um Um Um that there should have been more that there should have been more that there should have been more emphasis on that with the Crown Prince? emphasis on that with the Crown Prince? emphasis on that with the Crown Prince? >> Well, I think the United States, >> Well, I think the United States, >> Well, I think the United States, including in the Trump administration, including in the Trump administration, including in the Trump administration, argued for a lot of uh argued for a lot of uh argued for a lot of uh things that uh MBS was doing and has things that uh MBS was doing and has things that uh MBS was doing and has done that have opened the kingdom up done that have opened the kingdom up done that have opened the kingdom up very considerably.

very considerably. very considerably. And indeed, I think there's a And indeed, I think there's a And indeed, I think there's a substantial argument that only somebody substantial argument that only somebody substantial argument that only somebody like MBS, young, uh un- unconstrained by like MBS, young, uh un- unconstrained by like MBS, young, uh un- unconstrained by many of the traditions, could have cut many of the traditions, could have cut many of the traditions, could have cut through through through uh a lot of the uh uh a lot of the uh uh a lot of the uh uh the existing social structures in in uh the existing social structures in in uh the existing social structures in in Saudi to get done what he's done. And I Saudi to get done what he's done. And I Saudi to get done what he's done. And I think uh the the proof for everybody is think uh the the proof for everybody is think uh the the proof for everybody is the extent of his popularity with young the extent of his popularity with young the extent of his popularity with young people, young men and young women in people, young men and young women in people, young men and young women in Saudi Arabia, for what he's done. Uh is Saudi Arabia, for what he's done. Uh is Saudi Arabia, for what he's done. Uh is his record perfect? No. Uh but but he his record perfect? No. Uh but but he his record perfect? No. Uh but but he has accomplished more to change Saudi has accomplished more to change Saudi has accomplished more to change Saudi Arabia uh than any of his predecessors. Arabia uh than any of his predecessors. Arabia uh than any of his predecessors. >> How do we know about his popularity? >> How do we know about his popularity? >> How do we know about his popularity? There are no polls. There are no polls. There are no polls. >> Well, I think there are polls, and I >> Well, I think there are polls, and I >> Well, I think there are polls, and I think the the impression and reporting think the the impression and reporting think the the impression and reporting of our diplomats in Saudi Arabia, uh and of our diplomats in Saudi Arabia, uh and of our diplomats in Saudi Arabia, uh and my own experience is, indeed, he is very my own experience is, indeed, he is very my own experience is, indeed, he is very popular. popular. popular. >> And so, on balance, he is a he is a good >> And so, on balance, he is a he is a good >> And so, on balance, he is a he is a good thing in your view? thing in your view? thing in your view? >> Look, on balance, he's an important part >> Look, on balance, he's an important part >> Look, on balance, he's an important part of the political geography of the Middle of the political geography of the Middle of the political geography of the Middle East. He's been East. He's been East. He's been by and large a very loyal ally of the by and large a very loyal ally of the by and large a very loyal ally of the United States over the years.

United States over the years. United States over the years. >> Just to come to today's news, you've >> Just to come to today's news, you've >> Just to come to today's news, you've expressed concern over how Trump has expressed concern over how Trump has expressed concern over how Trump has gone about um gone about um gone about um his uh his uh his uh move on Iran. move on Iran. move on Iran. What's your What's your What's your What's your criticism? What's your criticism? What's your criticism? >> Well, I think the case for overthrowing >> Well, I think the case for overthrowing >> Well, I think the case for overthrowing the regime in Tehran is very clear and the regime in Tehran is very clear and the regime in Tehran is very clear and very compelling. very compelling. very compelling. Uh we are legitimately worried about Uh we are legitimately worried about Uh we are legitimately worried about their pursuit of nuclear weapons and their pursuit of nuclear weapons and their pursuit of nuclear weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems. ballistic missile delivery systems. ballistic missile delivery systems. We're We're We're uh very concerned and rightly so about uh very concerned and rightly so about uh very concerned and rightly so about their support for international their support for international their support for international terrorism, their own state terrorism terrorism, their own state terrorism terrorism, their own state terrorism around the world. Um and uh the uh the around the world. Um and uh the uh the around the world. Um and uh the uh the way they treat their own people. way they treat their own people. way they treat their own people. Uh Uh Uh we don't need to wait for that threat to we don't need to wait for that threat to we don't need to wait for that threat to be imminent be imminent be imminent uh to protect American interest. And we uh to protect American interest. And we uh to protect American interest. And we have learned painfully over nearly 30 have learned painfully over nearly 30 have learned painfully over nearly 30 years of negotiation years of negotiation years of negotiation that the regime can't be trusted uh that the regime can't be trusted uh that the regime can't be trusted uh either to give up terrorism, which it either to give up terrorism, which it either to give up terrorism, which it refuses to acknowledge that it's doing, refuses to acknowledge that it's doing, refuses to acknowledge that it's doing, or to give up its nuclear weapons or to give up its nuclear weapons or to give up its nuclear weapons program. So, faced with those threats, program. So, faced with those threats, program. So, faced with those threats, faced with the reality that uh the faced with the reality that uh the faced with the reality that uh the regime's behavior is not going to regime's behavior is not going to regime's behavior is not going to change, the alternative is change the change, the alternative is change the change, the alternative is change the regime. And I think that's what we regime. And I think that's what we regime. And I think that's what we should be doing. Uh I'm not sure whether should be doing. Uh I'm not sure whether should be doing. Uh I'm not sure whether that's what Trump is doing.

that's what Trump is doing. that's what Trump is doing. Uh his communication of his purposes has Uh his communication of his purposes has Uh his communication of his purposes has been unclear. He failed to generate been unclear. He failed to generate been unclear. He failed to generate public support. Uh he didn't roll the public support. Uh he didn't roll the public support. Uh he didn't roll the pitch, as the British say, to get the pitch, as the British say, to get the pitch, as the British say, to get the public ready for it. He didn't do the public ready for it. He didn't do the public ready for it. He didn't do the preparatory diplomacy. He has not preparatory diplomacy. He has not preparatory diplomacy. He has not coordinated sufficiently, in my view, coordinated sufficiently, in my view, coordinated sufficiently, in my view, with the opposition itself inside uh with the opposition itself inside uh with the opposition itself inside uh Iran, which will bear the brunt of the Iran, which will bear the brunt of the Iran, which will bear the brunt of the repression and a brutal repression as we repression and a brutal repression as we repression and a brutal repression as we know from recent events uh if things go know from recent events uh if things go know from recent events uh if things go wrong. So, there are a lot of ways this wrong. So, there are a lot of ways this wrong. So, there are a lot of ways this mission can fail uh and uh I think uh mission can fail uh and uh I think uh mission can fail uh and uh I think uh that ultimately will be to our that ultimately will be to our that ultimately will be to our detriment. I hope it succeeds. I believe detriment. I hope it succeeds. I believe detriment. I hope it succeeds. I believe the fact that the Israelis are very much the fact that the Israelis are very much the fact that the Israelis are very much involved is helpful because I believe involved is helpful because I believe involved is helpful because I believe that the Prime Minister's number one that the Prime Minister's number one that the Prime Minister's number one priority is the overthrow of the regime priority is the overthrow of the regime priority is the overthrow of the regime and that that will keep us moving in and that that will keep us moving in and that that will keep us moving in that direction. that direction. that direction. >> What role does the um Kingdom of Saudi >> What role does the um Kingdom of Saudi >> What role does the um Kingdom of Saudi Arabia play in this? Arabia play in this? Arabia play in this? >> Uh I think uh across the Gulf, in all >> Uh I think uh across the Gulf, in all >> Uh I think uh across the Gulf, in all the Gulf Arab states, the view is they the Gulf Arab states, the view is they the Gulf Arab states, the view is they would be better off and the Middle East would be better off and the Middle East would be better off and the Middle East would be better off with the change of would be better off with the change of would be better off with the change of regime in Tehran. But like uh like uh regime in Tehran. But like uh like uh regime in Tehran. But like uh like uh all people, they they uh hope that that all people, they they uh hope that that all people, they they uh hope that that would happen without any pain and would happen without any pain and would happen without any pain and strain.

strain. strain. Uh Uh Uh I understand why they think that, but I understand why they think that, but I understand why they think that, but that was never going to be possible. And that was never going to be possible. And that was never going to be possible. And we've seen in the early days of the uh we've seen in the early days of the uh we've seen in the early days of the uh uh US-Israeli effort that the uh US-Israeli effort that the uh US-Israeli effort that the Iranian regime has responded by Iranian regime has responded by Iranian regime has responded by attacking civilian targets and I believe attacking civilian targets and I believe attacking civilian targets and I believe every one of the six members of the Gulf every one of the six members of the Gulf every one of the six members of the Gulf Cooperation Council. Uh that brings them Cooperation Council. Uh that brings them Cooperation Council. Uh that brings them into the war whether they wanted to be into the war whether they wanted to be into the war whether they wanted to be in it or not. I think it was entirely in it or not. I think it was entirely in it or not. I think it was entirely foreseeable that uh that would happen, foreseeable that uh that would happen, foreseeable that uh that would happen, although I think it's a cat- although I think it's a cat- although I think it's a cat- catastrophic mistake that the Iranians catastrophic mistake that the Iranians catastrophic mistake that the Iranians have actually gone so far as to attack have actually gone so far as to attack have actually gone so far as to attack their near neighbors across the Gulf. I their near neighbors across the Gulf. I their near neighbors across the Gulf. I think it will hasten the fall of the think it will hasten the fall of the think it will hasten the fall of the regime. regime. regime. >> This seems to me a matter of mathematics >> This seems to me a matter of mathematics >> This seems to me a matter of mathematics that if they run out of that if they run out of that if they run out of uh uh uh weapons uh and launchers uh missiles and weapons uh and launchers uh missiles and weapons uh and launchers uh missiles and launchers uh launchers uh launchers uh or we run out of interceptors or the or we run out of interceptors or the or we run out of interceptors or the Gulf states run out of interceptors, Gulf states run out of interceptors, Gulf states run out of interceptors, whatever happens first um whatever happens first um whatever happens first um determines who wins, who loses. determines who wins, who loses. determines who wins, who loses. >> Well, I don't think we're going to run >> Well, I don't think we're going to run >> Well, I don't think we're going to run out. I think they're wasting their out. I think they're wasting their out. I think they're wasting their assets by attacking the Gulf Arab assets by attacking the Gulf Arab assets by attacking the Gulf Arab states, but we're not going to wait to states, but we're not going to wait to states, but we're not going to wait to see how many they have. We are in the see how many they have. We are in the see how many they have. We are in the process now of determining where their process now of determining where their process now of determining where their stockpiles are, where their arsenals stockpiles are, where their arsenals stockpiles are, where their arsenals are, destroying them on the ground, are, destroying them on the ground, are, destroying them on the ground, destroying the launchers, destroying the destroying the launchers, destroying the destroying the launchers, destroying the production facilities. That's what we production facilities. That's what we production facilities. That's what we should do. If they never fire the should do. If they never fire the should do. If they never fire the missiles, we don't have to worry about missiles, we don't have to worry about missiles, we don't have to worry about interceptors.

interceptors. interceptors. >> Our record, I was listening to Turki >> Our record, I was listening to Turki >> Our record, I was listening to Turki al-Faisal, al-Faisal, al-Faisal, Prince Turki al-Faisal, Prince Turki al-Faisal, Prince Turki al-Faisal, talking. He was very critical of the talking. He was very critical of the talking. He was very critical of the approach that the United States is approach that the United States is approach that the United States is taking. He says he doesn't know quite taking. He says he doesn't know quite taking. He says he doesn't know quite what the the goal is here, and he what the the goal is here, and he what the the goal is here, and he worries that there'll be worries that there'll be worries that there'll be disintegration of the state, disintegration of the state, disintegration of the state, civil war, and that we will somehow civil war, and that we will somehow civil war, and that we will somehow walk away. walk away. walk away. >> Well, that's that's a potential >> Well, that's that's a potential >> Well, that's that's a potential criticism of Trump that I don't disagree criticism of Trump that I don't disagree criticism of Trump that I don't disagree with. with. with. Uh but the regime's been in power for 47 Uh but the regime's been in power for 47 Uh but the regime's been in power for 47 years. It's not going to go easily. years. It's not going to go easily. years. It's not going to go easily. Uh and that's why coordination with the Uh and that's why coordination with the Uh and that's why coordination with the opposition in Iran is so important opposition in Iran is so important opposition in Iran is so important because they're the ones working to pry because they're the ones working to pry because they're the ones working to pry apart the regime at the top, to fragment apart the regime at the top, to fragment apart the regime at the top, to fragment the leadership, to convince people in the leadership, to convince people in the leadership, to convince people in the regular army, not the Revolutionary the regular army, not the Revolutionary the regular army, not the Revolutionary Guard Corps, but the regular army to Guard Corps, but the regular army to Guard Corps, but the regular army to come over to the side of the opposition, come over to the side of the opposition, come over to the side of the opposition, and hopefully minimize the violence. and hopefully minimize the violence. and hopefully minimize the violence. Ultimately, it will depend on how much Ultimately, it will depend on how much Ultimately, it will depend on how much the opposition really wants to be uh the opposition really wants to be uh the opposition really wants to be uh living in a free country. We're not living in a free country. We're not living in a free country. We're not going to deliver it to them on a silver going to deliver it to them on a silver going to deliver it to them on a silver platter, and they're not going to get it platter, and they're not going to get it platter, and they're not going to get it without bloodshed.

without bloodshed. without bloodshed. >> There's no Nelson Mandela here. There's >> There's no Nelson Mandela here. There's >> There's no Nelson Mandela here. There's no figure that leads this opposition. no figure that leads this opposition. no figure that leads this opposition. It's an amorphous It's an amorphous It's an amorphous uh uh uh protest movement with many currents in protest movement with many currents in protest movement with many currents in it. How do you negotiate a it. How do you negotiate a it. How do you negotiate a uh or how do you uh or how do you uh or how do you uh reach out to that opposition? uh reach out to that opposition? uh reach out to that opposition? >> Well, I think uh the administration has >> Well, I think uh the administration has >> Well, I think uh the administration has already done that by public reporting already done that by public reporting already done that by public reporting they delivered 6,000 Starlink terminals they delivered 6,000 Starlink terminals they delivered 6,000 Starlink terminals during the demonstrations in January. during the demonstrations in January. during the demonstrations in January. [clears throat] they must have delivered [clears throat] they must have delivered [clears throat] they must have delivered it to somebody. There are plenty of it to somebody. There are plenty of it to somebody. There are plenty of groups in the Iranian diaspora around groups in the Iranian diaspora around groups in the Iranian diaspora around Europe and the United States with their Europe and the United States with their Europe and the United States with their own ideas. Uh I don't think it's a own ideas. Uh I don't think it's a own ideas. Uh I don't think it's a situation where you can pick somebody in situation where you can pick somebody in situation where you can pick somebody in advance who's going to be the leader. Uh advance who's going to be the leader. Uh advance who's going to be the leader. Uh and uh it may well be chaotic. It was and uh it may well be chaotic. It was and uh it may well be chaotic. It was certainly not clear when we started the certainly not clear when we started the certainly not clear when we started the American Revolution what our government American Revolution what our government American Revolution what our government was going to look like, but we did it was going to look like, but we did it was going to look like, but we did it and we won. and we won. and we won. >> That's that was a a a clear point in Ken >> That's that was a a a clear point in Ken >> That's that was a a a clear point in Ken Burns' uh series. I don't know if you Burns' uh series. I don't know if you Burns' uh series. I don't know if you watched it, but watched it, but watched it, but >> I haven't watched it.

>> I haven't watched it. >> I haven't watched it. >> they didn't have any idea who was going >> they didn't have any idea who was going >> they didn't have any idea who was going to win that and it was very chaotic. to win that and it was very chaotic. to win that and it was very chaotic. Um so this is going to be a long um Um so this is going to be a long um Um so this is going to be a long um a long haul. a long haul. a long haul. >> Well, I think it could be a long haul >> Well, I think it could be a long haul >> Well, I think it could be a long haul until the regime collapses, but uh until the regime collapses, but uh until the regime collapses, but uh no one should underestimate how no one should underestimate how no one should underestimate how unpopular it is. unpopular it is. unpopular it is. Uh it's at the weakest point, I think, Uh it's at the weakest point, I think, Uh it's at the weakest point, I think, uh since it took power in 1979. uh since it took power in 1979. uh since it took power in 1979. It's unpopular from manifold reasons. Uh It's unpopular from manifold reasons. Uh It's unpopular from manifold reasons. Uh the economy is a disaster. The country the economy is a disaster. The country the economy is a disaster. The country is running out of water. Uh the economic is running out of water. Uh the economic is running out of water. Uh the economic uh pain is felt in all 31 provinces. uh pain is felt in all 31 provinces. uh pain is felt in all 31 provinces. Uh Uh Uh the young people, 2/3 of the population the young people, 2/3 of the population the young people, 2/3 of the population are under 30. They know they could have are under 30. They know they could have are under 30. They know they could have a different life when the internet is a different life when the internet is a different life when the internet is turned on, they can see it across the turned on, they can see it across the turned on, they can see it across the Gulf. Gulf. Gulf. Uh the women for now nearly 3 years Uh the women for now nearly 3 years Uh the women for now nearly 3 years since the murder of Masha Amini, the since the murder of Masha Amini, the since the murder of Masha Amini, the young Kurdish woman, uh are uh alienated young Kurdish woman, uh are uh alienated young Kurdish woman, uh are uh alienated from the from the regime and and their from the from the regime and and their from the from the regime and and their protest is not simply about a dress protest is not simply about a dress protest is not simply about a dress code. Their protest goes to the very code. Their protest goes to the very code. Their protest goes to the very foundational legitimacy of the regime foundational legitimacy of the regime foundational legitimacy of the regime itself because the regime says it speaks itself because the regime says it speaks itself because the regime says it speaks the word of God and the women are the word of God and the women are the word of God and the women are saying, "No, you do not." on the dress saying, "No, you do not." on the dress saying, "No, you do not." on the dress code. And once you say code. And once you say code. And once you say they're wrong on the word of God on one they're wrong on the word of God on one they're wrong on the word of God on one issue, issue, issue, they're they can be wrong on every they're they can be wrong on every they're they can be wrong on every issue. And then on On of that is the issue. And then on On of that is the issue. And then on On of that is the ethnic discontent. Uh Persians amount, ethnic discontent. Uh Persians amount, ethnic discontent. Uh Persians amount, depending on whose census you believe, depending on whose census you believe, depending on whose census you believe, between 50 and 60% of the population.

between 50 and 60% of the population. between 50 and 60% of the population. Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis, Arabs, uh Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis, Arabs, uh Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis, Arabs, uh all have uh separatist uh critiques. all have uh separatist uh critiques. all have uh separatist uh critiques. That's not necessarily good for the That's not necessarily good for the That's not necessarily good for the country, but it shows how uh fragmented country, but it shows how uh fragmented country, but it shows how uh fragmented that this regime already is. And uh that this regime already is. And uh that this regime already is. And uh uh uh uh uh I I I can't make any predictions as uh I I I can't make any predictions as uh I I I can't make any predictions as to how quickly it will fall, but to how quickly it will fall, but to how quickly it will fall, but everybody said before this everybody said before this everybody said before this uh action started that when the supreme uh action started that when the supreme uh action started that when the supreme leader died, and he was 86 and ailing, leader died, and he was 86 and ailing, leader died, and he was 86 and ailing, that there would be a succession crisis. that there would be a succession crisis. that there would be a succession crisis. He's only the second supreme leader. He's only the second supreme leader. He's only the second supreme leader. They've had one transition before this. They've had one transition before this. They've had one transition before this. We have now accelerated the succession We have now accelerated the succession We have now accelerated the succession process not only by killing uh the process not only by killing uh the process not only by killing uh the Ayatollah Khamenei, but Khamenei, but by Ayatollah Khamenei, but Khamenei, but by Ayatollah Khamenei, but Khamenei, but by killing a lot of the people who would killing a lot of the people who would killing a lot of the people who would have been decision-makers and killing have been decision-makers and killing have been decision-makers and killing them down through successive levels of them down through successive levels of them down through successive levels of government. So, what I think could government. So, what I think could government. So, what I think could happen inside is that ideology becomes happen inside is that ideology becomes happen inside is that ideology becomes much less of a factor than good much less of a factor than good much less of a factor than good old-fashioned personal ambition, old-fashioned personal ambition, old-fashioned personal ambition, animosity, uh animosity, uh animosity, uh uh family connections, money, and and a uh family connections, money, and and a uh family connections, money, and and a whole range of things that that can whole range of things that that can whole range of things that that can further uh fragment the regime.

further uh fragment the regime. further uh fragment the regime. >> Can you name a successful regime change >> Can you name a successful regime change >> Can you name a successful regime change in the Middle East? in the Middle East? in the Middle East? >> Well, I think I think it's been it's >> Well, I think I think it's been it's >> Well, I think I think it's been it's been hard over a long period of time been hard over a long period of time been hard over a long period of time uh because the regimes are not stable. uh because the regimes are not stable. uh because the regimes are not stable. These are These are countries that were These are These are countries that were These are These are countries that were uh uh uh not formed in the nation-state building not formed in the nation-state building not formed in the nation-state building process. process. process. Uh some have been more successful than Uh some have been more successful than Uh some have been more successful than others. Uh others. Uh others. Uh certainly uh regime change that uh uh certainly uh regime change that uh uh certainly uh regime change that uh uh that that that we have uh not agreed that that that we have uh not agreed that that that we have uh not agreed with, like the fall of the Shah, didn't with, like the fall of the Shah, didn't with, like the fall of the Shah, didn't turn out very well. It doesn't require turn out very well. It doesn't require turn out very well. It doesn't require American involvement for the for the American involvement for the for the American involvement for the for the change not to go well. Uh change not to go well. Uh change not to go well. Uh but given the strategic interest we have but given the strategic interest we have but given the strategic interest we have at stake, I think it's worth trying what at stake, I think it's worth trying what at stake, I think it's worth trying what we're doing here, trying to overthrow we're doing here, trying to overthrow we're doing here, trying to overthrow the regime, try and get another one in the regime, try and get another one in the regime, try and get another one in place. And place. And place. And because the alternative can hardly be because the alternative can hardly be because the alternative can hardly be worse than the Ayatollahs and the worse than the Ayatollahs and the worse than the Ayatollahs and the Revolutionary Guard. Revolutionary Guard. Revolutionary Guard. >> But one has to be sobered by the fact >> But one has to be sobered by the fact >> But one has to be sobered by the fact that we have not had a successful We that we have not had a successful We that we have not had a successful We have not engineered a successful regime have not engineered a successful regime have not engineered a successful regime change in the Middle East, have we?

change in the Middle East, have we? change in the Middle East, have we? >> Well, we did we did engineer successful >> Well, we did we did engineer successful >> Well, we did we did engineer successful regime changes. They just regime changes. They just regime changes. They just We In the case of Afghanistan, if you We In the case of Afghanistan, if you We In the case of Afghanistan, if you want to call that the Middle East, want to call that the Middle East, want to call that the Middle East, I think our mistake was leaving. I think our mistake was leaving. I think our mistake was leaving. Not not Not not Not not >> there for 20 years. >> there for 20 years. >> there for 20 years. >> Well, we've been in Germany for for 80 >> Well, we've been in Germany for for 80 >> Well, we've been in Germany for for 80 years. And we By the way, speaking of regime And we By the way, speaking of regime changes, that was a successful regime changes, that was a successful regime changes, that was a successful regime change. change. change. >> I said in the Middle East. >> I said in the Middle East. >> I said in the Middle East. >> Yeah, well, >> Yeah, well, >> Yeah, well, you know, you don't want to limit your you know, you don't want to limit your you know, you don't want to limit your geographical focus on this question. geographical focus on this question. geographical focus on this question. >> So you're you're you're thinking that >> So you're you're you're thinking that >> So you're you're you're thinking that it's possible that this it's possible that this it's possible that this uh Well, anyway, I this isn't a program Well, anyway, I this isn't a program about that. I just was curious and and about that. I just was curious and and about that. I just was curious and and appreciate being able to go into that. appreciate being able to go into that. appreciate being able to go into that. >> Yeah, I mean, look at look at Egypt. So >> Yeah, I mean, look at look at Egypt. So >> Yeah, I mean, look at look at Egypt. So they overthrow Mubarak they overthrow Mubarak they overthrow Mubarak and they get uh and they get uh and they get uh uh the Muslim Brotherhood in. uh the Muslim Brotherhood in. uh the Muslim Brotherhood in. >> Morsi. >> Morsi. >> Morsi. >> And that lasts until they realize, "My >> And that lasts until they realize, "My >> And that lasts until they realize, "My God, he's Muslim Brotherhood." And then God, he's Muslim Brotherhood." And then God, he's Muslim Brotherhood." And then you have el-Sisi come in and and it's So you have el-Sisi come in and and it's So you have el-Sisi come in and and it's So there were two failed regime changes there were two failed regime changes there were two failed regime changes that we had absolutely nothing to do that we had absolutely nothing to do that we had absolutely nothing to do with.

with. with. >> Right. Regime changes are hard. Regime >> Right. Regime changes are hard. Regime >> Right. Regime changes are hard. Regime changes result in chaos, disintegration, changes result in chaos, disintegration, changes result in chaos, disintegration, and civil war. and civil war. and civil war. >> didn't disintegrate. They didn't have >> didn't disintegrate. They didn't have >> didn't disintegrate. They didn't have much of a civil war. much of a civil war. much of a civil war. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So if if that's what bothers you, then >> So if if that's what bothers you, then >> So if if that's what bothers you, then you say, "The more autocratic and you say, "The more autocratic and you say, "The more autocratic and theologically extremist you are, the theologically extremist you are, the theologically extremist you are, the better you are, if you The greater your better you are, if you The greater your better you are, if you The greater your duration in power." duration in power." duration in power." >> Saudi is seen as critical to US >> Saudi is seen as critical to US >> Saudi is seen as critical to US interests. And but during your time, can interests. And but during your time, can interests. And but during your time, can you provide an example of what they did you provide an example of what they did you provide an example of what they did that benefited um America? that benefited um America? that benefited um America? >> Well, I think as we tried to turn the >> Well, I think as we tried to turn the >> Well, I think as we tried to turn the pressure up on Iran pressure up on Iran pressure up on Iran uh after uh withdrawing from the 2015 uh after uh withdrawing from the 2015 uh after uh withdrawing from the 2015 nuclear deal, nuclear deal, nuclear deal, uh uh uh we withdrew in May of 2018, we withdrew in May of 2018, we withdrew in May of 2018, uh and the Saudis and the Gulf Arabs as uh and the Saudis and the Gulf Arabs as uh and the Saudis and the Gulf Arabs as a whole, for their own reasons, but uh a whole, for their own reasons, but uh a whole, for their own reasons, but uh were very supportive of putting maximum were very supportive of putting maximum were very supportive of putting maximum pressure on Iran right right through the pressure on Iran right right through the pressure on Iran right right through the entire time I was there and thereafter. entire time I was there and thereafter. entire time I was there and thereafter. >> So, they stood with us on that >> So, they stood with us on that >> So, they stood with us on that initiative, but what really what kind of initiative, but what really what kind of initiative, but what really what kind of critical support on any front did they critical support on any front did they critical support on any front did they give?

give? give? >> Well, we have bases and facilities in uh >> Well, we have bases and facilities in uh >> Well, we have bases and facilities in uh in in uh different kinds in all the Gulf in in uh different kinds in all the Gulf in in uh different kinds in all the Gulf Arab countries, and that's critical to Arab countries, and that's critical to Arab countries, and that's critical to our ability to project force in that our ability to project force in that our ability to project force in that part of the world. part of the world. part of the world. >> And >> And >> And Peter Baker of The New York Times uh Peter Baker of The New York Times uh Peter Baker of The New York Times uh said uh to us said uh to us said uh to us that there's been no president in that there's been no president in that there's been no president in history that has monetized the office history that has monetized the office history that has monetized the office like Donald Trump. like Donald Trump. like Donald Trump. You were out of office. You were out of office. You were out of office. Uh you came to part ways with him, but Uh you came to part ways with him, but Uh you came to part ways with him, but you've seen the monetization, the you've seen the monetization, the you've seen the monetization, the payments into uh Jared Kushner's payments into uh Jared Kushner's payments into uh Jared Kushner's private equity fund, and hotels, and private equity fund, and hotels, and private equity fund, and hotels, and licensing deals, and crypto that the licensing deals, and crypto that the licensing deals, and crypto that the Trump organization has been involved in. Trump organization has been involved in. Trump organization has been involved in. As a person who has conducted uh policy As a person who has conducted uh policy As a person who has conducted uh policy uh for the United States, how do you uh for the United States, how do you uh for the United States, how do you feel about this? feel about this? feel about this? >> Well, I think in the second term in >> Well, I think in the second term in >> Well, I think in the second term in particular it's just gone completely particular it's just gone completely particular it's just gone completely over the top, and uh over the top, and uh over the top, and uh uh I think it it has diminished the uh I think it it has diminished the uh I think it it has diminished the office of the presidency and the United office of the presidency and the United office of the presidency and the United States in the eyes of the world. There States in the eyes of the world. There States in the eyes of the world. There are those who can are those who can are those who can uh uh uh make uh advances on their own interest make uh advances on their own interest make uh advances on their own interest off of it, but uh I think it's really off of it, but uh I think it's really off of it, but uh I think it's really set a new low in the conduct of the set a new low in the conduct of the set a new low in the conduct of the office.

office. office. And uh we'll we'll see after the 2026 And uh we'll we'll see after the 2026 And uh we'll we'll see after the 2026 elections elections elections uh if Democrats can get control of one uh if Democrats can get control of one uh if Democrats can get control of one of the other houses of Congress, there's of the other houses of Congress, there's of the other houses of Congress, there's no doubt among all the other hearings no doubt among all the other hearings no doubt among all the other hearings they're going to hold, they're going to hold, they're going to hold, they're going to hold a lot of hearings they're going to hold a lot of hearings they're going to hold a lot of hearings on the corruption issue. on the corruption issue. on the corruption issue. We'll we'll see how good they are at it, We'll we'll see how good they are at it, We'll we'll see how good they are at it, which is always an open question. But if which is always an open question. But if which is always an open question. But if if they are, if they are, if they are, then that may well be very damaging to then that may well be very damaging to then that may well be very damaging to the Trump family. the Trump family. the Trump family. >> I mean, tell me what is so >> I mean, tell me what is so >> I mean, tell me what is so detrimental about these deals? detrimental about these deals? detrimental about these deals? >> Well, Trump doesn't have any sense of >> Well, Trump doesn't have any sense of >> Well, Trump doesn't have any sense of the separateness of his personal the separateness of his personal the separateness of his personal interests and his government interests. interests and his government interests. interests and his government interests. And I think it's of a piece with him And I think it's of a piece with him And I think it's of a piece with him saying saying that saying saying that saying saying that that everything deals with the personal that everything deals with the personal that everything deals with the personal relationship between him and foreign relationship between him and foreign relationship between him and foreign leaders. And so if you have that leaders. And so if you have that leaders. And so if you have that relationship, whether you're dealing relationship, whether you're dealing relationship, whether you're dealing with a governmental issue or an issue of with a governmental issue or an issue of with a governmental issue or an issue of personal finance, really doesn't make personal finance, really doesn't make personal finance, really doesn't make that much difference. that much difference. that much difference. >> He raised this issue about business >> He raised this issue about business >> He raised this issue about business interests, and he said he was not interests, and he said he was not interests, and he said he was not held to these held to these held to these strictures, these traditions of strictures, these traditions of strictures, these traditions of separating his own personal business separating his own personal business separating his own personal business from his from his from his performance of the presidency.

performance of the presidency. performance of the presidency. >> Well, technically the Ethics in >> Well, technically the Ethics in >> Well, technically the Ethics in Government Act does not apply to the Government Act does not apply to the Government Act does not apply to the president. And other presidents tried to president. And other presidents tried to president. And other presidents tried to behave in an ethical fashion. I think behave in an ethical fashion. I think behave in an ethical fashion. I think many of the strictures in the Ethics in many of the strictures in the Ethics in many of the strictures in the Ethics in Government Act are ridiculous and Government Act are ridiculous and Government Act are ridiculous and overdone. I can tell you about how overdone. I can tell you about how overdone. I can tell you about how people have struggled to fill out the people have struggled to fill out the people have struggled to fill out the financial disclosure forms that are financial disclosure forms that are financial disclosure forms that are nearly incomprehensible, at least nearly incomprehensible, at least nearly incomprehensible, at least they're incomprehensible to me. For they're incomprehensible to me. For they're incomprehensible to me. For for purposes of disclosure that for purposes of disclosure that for purposes of disclosure that that didn't didn't affect anybody. that didn't didn't affect anybody. that didn't didn't affect anybody. But in general terms, other presidents But in general terms, other presidents But in general terms, other presidents have tried to separate their have tried to separate their have tried to separate their professional responsibilities as professional responsibilities as professional responsibilities as president from their own personal president from their own personal president from their own personal fortunes. And I think that's the right fortunes. And I think that's the right fortunes. And I think that's the right thing to try and do thing to try and do thing to try and do as a as a general proposition. And I as a as a general proposition. And I as a as a general proposition. And I think Trump couldn't care less about think Trump couldn't care less about think Trump couldn't care less about that.