Fmr. Trump envoy on negotiating the Abraham Accords | Jason Greenblatt (interview) | FRONTLINE

You came to the job in 2017 and you say You came to the job in 2017 and you say that at that point you weren't familiar that at that point you weren't familiar that at that point you weren't familiar at all with Saudi Arabia. at all with Saudi Arabia. at all with Saudi Arabia. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And actually >> And actually >> And actually I was familiar in a negative way. Right. I was familiar in a negative way. Right. I was familiar in a negative way. Right. September 11th. Anything I ever read September 11th. Anything I ever read September 11th. Anything I ever read about them was hostile. You know, about them was hostile. You know, about them was hostile. You know, enemies enemies of the US, enemies of enemies enemies of the US, enemies of enemies enemies of the US, enemies of Jews, enemies of Israel. So I came with Jews, enemies of Israel. So I came with Jews, enemies of Israel. So I came with a a preconceived notion, a negative, a a preconceived notion, a negative, a a preconceived notion, a negative, very negative preconceived notion. And very negative preconceived notion. And very negative preconceived notion. And this the Saudis had already sent a this the Saudis had already sent a this the Saudis had already sent a delegation over to talk with uh members delegation over to talk with uh members delegation over to talk with uh members of Trump's team after the election of Trump's team after the election of Trump's team after the election before the inauguration even. Um and before the inauguration even. Um and before the inauguration even. Um and they were you were aware of those they were you were aware of those they were you were aware of those conversations? conversations? conversations? >> No, >> No, >> No, >> you weren't. Um, but at the time that >> you weren't. Um, but at the time that >> you weren't. Um, but at the time that you joined, there was discussion, I'm you joined, there was discussion, I'm you joined, there was discussion, I'm presuming, over uh making the presuming, over uh making the presuming, over uh making the president's first trip to the Middle president's first trip to the Middle president's first trip to the Middle East or his first foreign trip to be to East or his first foreign trip to be to East or his first foreign trip to be to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia. >> That heated up very quickly once we were >> That heated up very quickly once we were >> That heated up very quickly once we were in office. Yes.

in office. Yes. in office. Yes. >> And it was somewhat controversial as I >> And it was somewhat controversial as I >> And it was somewhat controversial as I understand it. There were aids that were understand it. There were aids that were understand it. There were aids that were in favor of it. There were advisers that in favor of it. There were advisers that in favor of it. There were advisers that were against it. It's true that it was were against it. It's true that it was were against it. It's true that it was controversial to some, but Jared, who controversial to some, but Jared, who controversial to some, but Jared, who led the team, was very much in favor of led the team, was very much in favor of led the team, was very much in favor of it. I think President Trump was in favor it. I think President Trump was in favor it. I think President Trump was in favor of it. And it made a lot of sense to us of it. And it made a lot of sense to us of it. And it made a lot of sense to us because if we were going in there trying because if we were going in there trying because if we were going in there trying to create stability in the Middle East, to create stability in the Middle East, to create stability in the Middle East, which included Israeli Palestinian which included Israeli Palestinian which included Israeli Palestinian matters, but the broader region, Saudi matters, but the broader region, Saudi matters, but the broader region, Saudi Arabia is, you know, arguably the most Arabia is, you know, arguably the most Arabia is, you know, arguably the most important player there. Some would say important player there. Some would say important player there. Some would say one of the most important players there. one of the most important players there. one of the most important players there. So, it made a lot of sense to us. So, it made a lot of sense to us. So, it made a lot of sense to us. give me a little bit of more of a sense give me a little bit of more of a sense give me a little bit of more of a sense of the pros and cons of that. I mean, of the pros and cons of that. I mean, of the pros and cons of that. I mean, the the debate that was going on inside the the debate that was going on inside the the debate that was going on inside the administration over that trip. the administration over that trip. the administration over that trip. >> Well, the pros are we can't pretend >> Well, the pros are we can't pretend >> Well, the pros are we can't pretend they're not important. We need a strong, they're not important. We need a strong, they're not important. We need a strong, good relationship with Saudi Arabia. Um, good relationship with Saudi Arabia. Um, good relationship with Saudi Arabia. Um, they're going to be essential to any they're going to be essential to any they're going to be essential to any kind of peace process with the kind of peace process with the kind of peace process with the Palestinians. Palestinians. Palestinians. We need oil. We need money. We need them We need oil. We need money. We need them We need oil. We need money. We need them to buy our defense. There are so many to buy our defense. There are so many to buy our defense. There are so many reasons why we need a strong reasons why we need a strong reasons why we need a strong relationship. And historically, we had a relationship. And historically, we had a relationship. And historically, we had a very strong relationship with the very strong relationship with the very strong relationship with the kingdom. But there were others who felt kingdom. But there were others who felt kingdom. But there were others who felt that they were bad guys. I wouldn't say, that they were bad guys. I wouldn't say, that they were bad guys. I wouldn't say, for example, they said what President for example, they said what President for example, they said what President Biden said when he was campaigning that Biden said when he was campaigning that Biden said when he was campaigning that he was going to make Saudi Arabia or he was going to make Saudi Arabia or he was going to make Saudi Arabia or MBS, I forget the exact quote, the MBS, I forget the exact quote, the MBS, I forget the exact quote, the pariah that they are. Nobody said pariah that they are. Nobody said pariah that they are. Nobody said anything like that, but they just felt anything like that, but they just felt anything like that, but they just felt it was not the right move. And we felt it was not the right move. And we felt it was not the right move. And we felt you can't put the pieces in order in the you can't put the pieces in order in the you can't put the pieces in order in the Middle East without actually visiting Middle East without actually visiting Middle East without actually visiting the entire Middle East. And Saudi Arabia the entire Middle East. And Saudi Arabia the entire Middle East. And Saudi Arabia is part and parcel, if not the center of

is part and parcel, if not the center of is part and parcel, if not the center of all of that. And at that moment what all of that. And at that moment what all of that. And at that moment what Jared's role and the his adopted agenda Jared's role and the his adopted agenda Jared's role and the his adopted agenda was what exactly? was what exactly? was what exactly? >> So he wore many hats but among the hats >> So he wore many hats but among the hats >> So he wore many hats but among the hats he wore and the one that I worked on was he wore and the one that I worked on was he wore and the one that I worked on was um deepening and strengthening the um deepening and strengthening the um deepening and strengthening the USIsrael relationship which President USIsrael relationship which President USIsrael relationship which President Trump had felt suffered under the Obama Trump had felt suffered under the Obama Trump had felt suffered under the Obama years. uh deepening the US Gulf years. uh deepening the US Gulf years. uh deepening the US Gulf relationship which we all felt in relationship which we all felt in relationship which we all felt in particular Jared and the president was particular Jared and the president was particular Jared and the president was crucial to national security and other crucial to national security and other crucial to national security and other issues for the US uh trying to resolve issues for the US uh trying to resolve issues for the US uh trying to resolve that ever elusive Israeli Palestinian that ever elusive Israeli Palestinian that ever elusive Israeli Palestinian conflict. And then there were whispers conflict. And then there were whispers conflict. And then there were whispers even before we came into office about even before we came into office about even before we came into office about whether or not uh Israel can make peace whether or not uh Israel can make peace whether or not uh Israel can make peace with its Arab neighbors perhaps even if with its Arab neighbors perhaps even if with its Arab neighbors perhaps even if the Israeli Palestinian conflict was not the Israeli Palestinian conflict was not the Israeli Palestinian conflict was not resolved. But that really didn't gain resolved. But that really didn't gain resolved. But that really didn't gain traction until much later in our time traction until much later in our time traction until much later in our time there. there. there. >> You said that initially you didn't set >> You said that initially you didn't set >> You said that initially you didn't set out to um uh create the Abraham Accord out to um uh create the Abraham Accord out to um uh create the Abraham Accord agreement that that came out of an agreement that that came out of an agreement that that came out of an effort to get the Palestinians and the effort to get the Palestinians and the effort to get the Palestinians and the Israelis to come to terms. Explain. So Israelis to come to terms. Explain. So Israelis to come to terms. Explain. So we our im immediate task was to try to we our im immediate task was to try to we our im immediate task was to try to solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict which by definition to us didn't just which by definition to us didn't just which by definition to us didn't just include an agreement with the Israelis include an agreement with the Israelis include an agreement with the Israelis and the Palestinians but as many of the and the Palestinians but as many of the and the Palestinians but as many of the Arab countries as possible. It wouldn't Arab countries as possible. It wouldn't Arab countries as possible. It wouldn't make sense for an an agreement between make sense for an an agreement between make sense for an an agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinian to be the Israelis and the Palestinian to be the Israelis and the Palestinian to be signed and then find out the Israelis signed and then find out the Israelis signed and then find out the Israelis were still an enemy of countries were still an enemy of countries were still an enemy of countries throughout the Middle East. We knew we

throughout the Middle East. We knew we throughout the Middle East. We knew we couldn't get everybody, but our goal couldn't get everybody, but our goal couldn't get everybody, but our goal would be to get as many as possible. But would be to get as many as possible. But would be to get as many as possible. But there was no jumping over the there was no jumping over the there was no jumping over the Palestinian issue. The first time I Palestinian issue. The first time I Palestinian issue. The first time I heard something called the inside out heard something called the inside out heard something called the inside out approach, was from a journalist who said approach, was from a journalist who said approach, was from a journalist who said to me pretty early in in my time in to me pretty early in in my time in to me pretty early in in my time in 2017, "Uh, Jason, I'm told that you guys 2017, "Uh, Jason, I'm told that you guys 2017, "Uh, Jason, I'm told that you guys are going to make peace between Israel are going to make peace between Israel are going to make peace between Israel and the Arab countries, in particular and the Arab countries, in particular and the Arab countries, in particular the Gulf, and then you're going to tell the Gulf, and then you're going to tell the Gulf, and then you're going to tell the Palestinians, hey, the train is the Palestinians, hey, the train is the Palestinians, hey, the train is leaving the station." That's a phrase leaving the station." That's a phrase leaving the station." That's a phrase that a lot of people used. or the train that a lot of people used. or the train that a lot of people used. or the train has left the station and they're going has left the station and they're going has left the station and they're going to be forced to run up and catch it and to be forced to run up and catch it and to be forced to run up and catch it and jump in. Uh that wasn't our approach at jump in. Uh that wasn't our approach at jump in. Uh that wasn't our approach at all. Um in fact, I was a little bit all. Um in fact, I was a little bit all. Um in fact, I was a little bit offended by the approach because we offended by the approach because we offended by the approach because we spent an enormous amount of time trying spent an enormous amount of time trying spent an enormous amount of time trying to understand the Israeli Palestinian to understand the Israeli Palestinian to understand the Israeli Palestinian conflict, what people had done before, conflict, what people had done before, conflict, what people had done before, what mistakes were made, is it even what mistakes were made, is it even what mistakes were made, is it even possible, what the issues were, and we possible, what the issues were, and we possible, what the issues were, and we were not interested in that at all. uh were not interested in that at all. uh were not interested in that at all. uh later after the end of 2017 when later after the end of 2017 when later after the end of 2017 when President Trump announced or recognized President Trump announced or recognized President Trump announced or recognized Jerusalem as the capital, which is Jerusalem as the capital, which is Jerusalem as the capital, which is something that's US law, he committed to something that's US law, he committed to something that's US law, he committed to do it, as did prior presidents who do it, as did prior presidents who do it, as did prior presidents who reneged on the promise. The Palestinians reneged on the promise. The Palestinians reneged on the promise. The Palestinians walked away from us and they told us, by walked away from us and they told us, by walked away from us and they told us, by the way, that they were going to do that the way, that they were going to do that the way, that they were going to do that before the actual announcement. We sat before the actual announcement. We sat before the actual announcement. We sat down with them. We told them what was down with them. We told them what was down with them. We told them what was coming. They essentially said, I mean, coming. They essentially said, I mean, coming. They essentially said, I mean, this is not an exact quote, but their this is not an exact quote, but their this is not an exact quote, but their Saab Ericot, their late uh chief Saab Ericot, their late uh chief Saab Ericot, their late uh chief negotiator told me, "Hey, Jason, if you negotiator told me, "Hey, Jason, if you negotiator told me, "Hey, Jason, if you do that or President Trump does that, do that or President Trump does that, do that or President Trump does that, just pack your bags and go home. You're just pack your bags and go home. You're just pack your bags and go home. You're going to go home with as a total going to go home with as a total going to go home with as a total failure." And uh I told him he's missing failure." And uh I told him he's missing failure." And uh I told him he's missing a tremendous opportunity that the

a tremendous opportunity that the a tremendous opportunity that the president had put three people in charge president had put three people in charge president had put three people in charge of the file that he trusted, Jared, of the file that he trusted, Jared, of the file that he trusted, Jared, myself, and David Freriedman who was our myself, and David Freriedman who was our myself, and David Freriedman who was our ambassador to Israel. that we had his ambassador to Israel. that we had his ambassador to Israel. that we had his ear, we had his attention. He was deeply ear, we had his attention. He was deeply ear, we had his attention. He was deeply interested in solving the problem. We interested in solving the problem. We interested in solving the problem. We didn't couldn't make any promises. We didn't couldn't make any promises. We didn't couldn't make any promises. We felt that the Jerusalem announcement and felt that the Jerusalem announcement and felt that the Jerusalem announcement and the embassy announcement were very the embassy announcement were very the embassy announcement were very different. We understand the Palestinian different. We understand the Palestinian different. We understand the Palestinian position, but we follow US law. We don't position, but we follow US law. We don't position, but we follow US law. We don't follow Palestinian aspirations and follow Palestinian aspirations and follow Palestinian aspirations and positions. Uh, and they said they'd positions. Uh, and they said they'd positions. Uh, and they said they'd never come back, and they didn't. Uh, we never come back, and they didn't. Uh, we never come back, and they didn't. Uh, we didn't think that would happen, by the didn't think that would happen, by the didn't think that would happen, by the way. We thought that at some point they way. We thought that at some point they way. We thought that at some point they would come back, but they didn't. A lot would come back, but they didn't. A lot would come back, but they didn't. A lot of people came into my office and said of people came into my office and said of people came into my office and said that they were there on behalf of that they were there on behalf of that they were there on behalf of President Abbas, the PA. I never knew if President Abbas, the PA. I never knew if President Abbas, the PA. I never knew if they were, they were, and I talked to they were, they were, and I talked to they were, they were, and I talked to all of them, but I to this day I don't all of them, but I to this day I don't all of them, but I to this day I don't know if President Abbas truly was know if President Abbas truly was know if President Abbas truly was sending messengers to try to get us to sending messengers to try to get us to sending messengers to try to get us to give him something to the expression give him something to the expression give him something to the expression they always used. It must be a famous they always used. It must be a famous they always used. It must be a famous diplomatic expression, give him a ladder diplomatic expression, give him a ladder diplomatic expression, give him a ladder to let him climb down the tree. And I to let him climb down the tree. And I to let him climb down the tree. And I said, it's not our job to construct said, it's not our job to construct said, it's not our job to construct ladders. It's our job to try to make ladders. It's our job to try to make ladders. It's our job to try to make peace. and he should want to try to make peace. and he should want to try to make peace. and he should want to try to make peace.

peace. peace. >> Makmoud Abbas, the head of the PLO, >> Makmoud Abbas, the head of the PLO, >> Makmoud Abbas, the head of the PLO, >> correct? >> correct? >> correct? >> Um, the trip to Saudi Arabia, you're on >> Um, the trip to Saudi Arabia, you're on >> Um, the trip to Saudi Arabia, you're on it, right? Um, can you give me some it, right? Um, can you give me some it, right? Um, can you give me some sense of the conversations you had with sense of the conversations you had with sense of the conversations you had with Jared about what you were hoping to Jared about what you were hoping to Jared about what you were hoping to achieve? achieve? achieve? Well, the first is to develop a real Well, the first is to develop a real Well, the first is to develop a real relationship, a rapport between the relationship, a rapport between the relationship, a rapport between the president and the leadership in Saudi, a president and the leadership in Saudi, a president and the leadership in Saudi, a rapport for all the things President rapport for all the things President rapport for all the things President Trump had on his laundry list, which he Trump had on his laundry list, which he Trump had on his laundry list, which he repeated in the current term, meaning he repeated in the current term, meaning he repeated in the current term, meaning he had a list of asks in terms of what they had a list of asks in terms of what they had a list of asks in terms of what they could do for the United States. Um, I could do for the United States. Um, I could do for the United States. Um, I don't recall and I would doubt if Israel don't recall and I would doubt if Israel don't recall and I would doubt if Israel normalization with Israel came up. In normalization with Israel came up. In normalization with Israel came up. In fact, I'm 99% sure it wouldn't have come fact, I'm 99% sure it wouldn't have come fact, I'm 99% sure it wouldn't have come up. And the reason I say that is I up. And the reason I say that is I up. And the reason I say that is I remember part of my job was reading any remember part of my job was reading any remember part of my job was reading any public announcements, speeches, etc. public announcements, speeches, etc. public announcements, speeches, etc. that would go out relating to the that would go out relating to the that would go out relating to the region. And I remember getting the region. And I remember getting the region. And I remember getting the speech that he was going to make in speech that he was going to make in speech that he was going to make in Saudi Arabia in front of all the Arab Saudi Arabia in front of all the Arab Saudi Arabia in front of all the Arab and Muslim leaders who attended and it and Muslim leaders who attended and it and Muslim leaders who attended and it mentioned Israel at least several times mentioned Israel at least several times mentioned Israel at least several times in a very positive way. And I remember in a very positive way. And I remember in a very positive way. And I remember thinking like this is great. Nobody is thinking like this is great. Nobody is thinking like this is great. Nobody is out there in the White House saying we out there in the White House saying we out there in the White House saying we can't talk about Israel publicly. So, he can't talk about Israel publicly. So, he can't talk about Israel publicly. So, he said good things about Israel, but I said good things about Israel, but I said good things about Israel, but I don't think he went so far as to talk don't think he went so far as to talk don't think he went so far as to talk about what later became the Abraham about what later became the Abraham about what later became the Abraham Accords. I think it was probably more Accords. I think it was probably more Accords. I think it was probably more general than that.

general than that. general than that. >> And the Abraham Accords grew um was >> And the Abraham Accords grew um was >> And the Abraham Accords grew um was created later. In fact, created later. In fact, created later. In fact, >> yeah, I think we built the framework >> yeah, I think we built the framework >> yeah, I think we built the framework alongside the goal of Israeli alongside the goal of Israeli alongside the goal of Israeli Palestinian peace, meaning everyone was Palestinian peace, meaning everyone was Palestinian peace, meaning everyone was curious what was Israeli Palestinian curious what was Israeli Palestinian curious what was Israeli Palestinian peace and well, we talked about all the peace and well, we talked about all the peace and well, we talked about all the normal issues that people were curious normal issues that people were curious normal issues that people were curious about, Jerusalem, what they call about, Jerusalem, what they call about, Jerusalem, what they call refugees, which I think is an incorrect refugees, which I think is an incorrect refugees, which I think is an incorrect term, what some call the West Bank and I term, what some call the West Bank and I term, what some call the West Bank and I would call Judea and Samaria. I mean, would call Judea and Samaria. I mean, would call Judea and Samaria. I mean, you name the issue. There's tons of you name the issue. There's tons of you name the issue. There's tons of them. Everybody knows them over the them. Everybody knows them over the them. Everybody knows them over the years. But we also said this means years. But we also said this means years. But we also said this means normalization. This means Israel being normalization. This means Israel being normalization. This means Israel being part of the security architecture there. part of the security architecture there. part of the security architecture there. This means trade between Israel and and This means trade between Israel and and This means trade between Israel and and these countries. This means tourism. these countries. This means tourism. these countries. This means tourism. This means diplomatic relationships, This means diplomatic relationships, This means diplomatic relationships, etc., etc. So, it came as no as no etc., etc. So, it came as no as no etc., etc. So, it came as no as no surprise. But the actual Abraham Accords surprise. But the actual Abraham Accords surprise. But the actual Abraham Accords and the idea of breaking them apart came and the idea of breaking them apart came and the idea of breaking them apart came after the Palestinians never came back after the Palestinians never came back after the Palestinians never came back to the table. So, some people say we to the table. So, some people say we to the table. So, some people say we sidestep the Palestinians. I would say sidestep the Palestinians. I would say sidestep the Palestinians. I would say the Palestinians sidestep themselves the Palestinians sidestep themselves the Palestinians sidestep themselves >> in the speech that he made, the very uh >> in the speech that he made, the very uh >> in the speech that he made, the very uh important speech near the end of the important speech near the end of the important speech near the end of the trip. You say you reviewed it. In that trip. You say you reviewed it. In that trip. You say you reviewed it. In that speech, he made a pledge that we are not speech, he made a pledge that we are not speech, he made a pledge that we are not going to impose our way of life on you.

going to impose our way of life on you. going to impose our way of life on you. Um, some have looked at that, human Um, some have looked at that, human Um, some have looked at that, human rights activists especially, and said rights activists especially, and said rights activists especially, and said that gave a green light to the crown that gave a green light to the crown that gave a green light to the crown prince to crack down on internal prince to crack down on internal prince to crack down on internal disscent. disscent. disscent. You have a comment on that? You have a comment on that? You have a comment on that? >> I do. I What I've witnessed about Saudi, >> I do. I What I've witnessed about Saudi, >> I do. I What I've witnessed about Saudi, and remember, I'm a guy who came in with and remember, I'm a guy who came in with and remember, I'm a guy who came in with a very harsh, negative attitude because a very harsh, negative attitude because a very harsh, negative attitude because of everything I read and learned growing of everything I read and learned growing of everything I read and learned growing up. Um what I witnessed from 2017 up. Um what I witnessed from 2017 up. Um what I witnessed from 2017 through and including today is a through and including today is a through and including today is a remarkable shift in how Saudi Arabia and remarkable shift in how Saudi Arabia and remarkable shift in how Saudi Arabia and the region at large um has changed. Uh the region at large um has changed. Uh the region at large um has changed. Uh MBS in particular he may be MBS in particular he may be MBS in particular he may be controversial to some but what he's done controversial to some but what he's done controversial to some but what he's done in the kingdom with respect to women in the kingdom with respect to women in the kingdom with respect to women with respect to the economy with respect with respect to the economy with respect with respect to the economy with respect to openness with respect to welcoming. I to openness with respect to welcoming. I to openness with respect to welcoming. I mean there are times I walk around with mean there are times I walk around with mean there are times I walk around with a keepa in Riyad. I don't now by the way a keepa in Riyad. I don't now by the way a keepa in Riyad. I don't now by the way because not because of Saudi but because because not because of Saudi but because because not because of Saudi but because I'm sanctioned by the Iranian regime so I'm sanctioned by the Iranian regime so I'm sanctioned by the Iranian regime so I don't want to call attention to myself I don't want to call attention to myself I don't want to call attention to myself but um I've only witnessed over the but um I've only witnessed over the but um I've only witnessed over the years continued significant progress and years continued significant progress and years continued significant progress and I've also over the years become very I've also over the years become very I've also over the years become very friendly with many Saudis of all stripes friendly with many Saudis of all stripes friendly with many Saudis of all stripes young old wealthy royal non-royal young old wealthy royal non-royal young old wealthy royal non-royal business people on the street people in business people on the street people in business people on the street people in diplomatic meetings I can't think of a diplomatic meetings I can't think of a diplomatic meetings I can't think of a single person who isn't isn't excited single person who isn't isn't excited single person who isn't isn't excited about the direction of the kingdom. Do about the direction of the kingdom. Do about the direction of the kingdom. Do they have complaints a little bit to they have complaints a little bit to they have complaints a little bit to some projects don't don't go forward?

some projects don't don't go forward? some projects don't don't go forward? Like there's the normal thing you would Like there's the normal thing you would Like there's the normal thing you would see here general chatter about I wish he see here general chatter about I wish he see here general chatter about I wish he would do this differently or that would do this differently or that would do this differently or that differently but on an overall basis differently but on an overall basis differently but on an overall basis everyone's excited about the direction everyone's excited about the direction everyone's excited about the direction and I think the human rights watchers and I think the human rights watchers and I think the human rights watchers are missing that story. are missing that story. are missing that story. >> I think it's correct that he has done a >> I think it's correct that he has done a >> I think it's correct that he has done a lot to modernize the kingdom. However, lot to modernize the kingdom. However, lot to modernize the kingdom. However, in 2017, women still were not permitted in 2017, women still were not permitted in 2017, women still were not permitted to drive. Clerics were being imprisoned. to drive. Clerics were being imprisoned. to drive. Clerics were being imprisoned. Uh writers, uh journalists, others, Uh writers, uh journalists, others, Uh writers, uh journalists, others, anybody who voiced any opposition to the anybody who voiced any opposition to the anybody who voiced any opposition to the uh to Muhammad bin Salman were at risk. uh to Muhammad bin Salman were at risk. uh to Muhammad bin Salman were at risk. There are many countries in the world There are many countries in the world There are many countries in the world that don't operate like the United that don't operate like the United that don't operate like the United States. Right? We're lucky. We live in States. Right? We're lucky. We live in States. Right? We're lucky. We live in the United States. Freedom is paramount. the United States. Freedom is paramount. the United States. Freedom is paramount. Many countries don't have that. And I Many countries don't have that. And I Many countries don't have that. And I don't think they'll ever become the don't think they'll ever become the don't think they'll ever become the United States. I don't think many of United States. I don't think many of United States. I don't think many of those countries will become the United those countries will become the United those countries will become the United States. And frankly, I don't think they States. And frankly, I don't think they States. And frankly, I don't think they want to become the United States. I want to become the United States. I want to become the United States. I think they want to modernize as best as think they want to modernize as best as think they want to modernize as best as they can, respecting monarchies. That's they can, respecting monarchies. That's they can, respecting monarchies. That's what they are. It's their choice of what they are. It's their choice of what they are. It's their choice of government. Maybe it's not everybody's government. Maybe it's not everybody's government. Maybe it's not everybody's choice, but it's the government they've choice, but it's the government they've choice, but it's the government they've had. Um they want to respect culture, had. Um they want to respect culture, had. Um they want to respect culture, their religion, all these things. So, to their religion, all these things. So, to their religion, all these things. So, to go back to your question about Trump's go back to your question about Trump's go back to your question about Trump's statement, that's his approach. His statement, that's his approach. His statement, that's his approach. His approach is, listen, we want to be safe approach is, listen, we want to be safe approach is, listen, we want to be safe together. We want to be prosperous together. We want to be prosperous together. We want to be prosperous together. We're not and we want to make together. We're not and we want to make together. We're not and we want to make sure that within the confines of what's sure that within the confines of what's sure that within the confines of what's normal, you behave normally, but we're normal, you behave normally, but we're normal, you behave normally, but we're not going to come here and lecture you not going to come here and lecture you not going to come here and lecture you and tell you what to do. I think he took and tell you what to do. I think he took and tell you what to do. I think he took particular offense to what President particular offense to what President particular offense to what President Obama did when he went to Egypt on his

Obama did when he went to Egypt on his Obama did when he went to Egypt on his trip and effectively uh I guess trip and effectively uh I guess trip and effectively uh I guess apologized for America. Trump's very apologized for America. Trump's very apologized for America. Trump's very proud of America. I mean, everything he proud of America. I mean, everything he proud of America. I mean, everything he says is always about how proud he is of says is always about how proud he is of says is always about how proud he is of America and he didn't want to go there America and he didn't want to go there America and he didn't want to go there and say, "Therefore, you have to be and say, "Therefore, you have to be and say, "Therefore, you have to be America." So you reject the notion that America." So you reject the notion that America." So you reject the notion that in any way uh the president approach on in any way uh the president approach on in any way uh the president approach on human rights abroad emboldened uh the human rights abroad emboldened uh the human rights abroad emboldened uh the crown prince or any other um autocrat in crown prince or any other um autocrat in crown prince or any other um autocrat in the region. the region. the region. >> I think what they do in that region they >> I think what they do in that region they >> I think what they do in that region they do regardless of what the president says do regardless of what the president says do regardless of what the president says or doesn't say. Meaning they did it or doesn't say. Meaning they did it or doesn't say. Meaning they did it under prior presidents and I don't think under prior presidents and I don't think under prior presidents and I don't think it emboldened anybody. They operate the it emboldened anybody. They operate the it emboldened anybody. They operate the way we want to operate. And President way we want to operate. And President way we want to operate. And President Trump had a not to diminish human Trump had a not to diminish human Trump had a not to diminish human rights, but President Trump had a very rights, but President Trump had a very rights, but President Trump had a very very big agenda to cover. And as much as very big agenda to cover. And as much as very big agenda to cover. And as much as people think a president can fix the people think a president can fix the people think a president can fix the world, he can't fix the whole world. And world, he can't fix the whole world. And world, he can't fix the whole world. And he can't make demands out of every he can't make demands out of every he can't make demands out of every country, let alone very powerful country, let alone very powerful country, let alone very powerful countries. At the time, Muhammad bin countries. At the time, Muhammad bin countries. At the time, Muhammad bin Salman, who uh extended this invitation Salman, who uh extended this invitation Salman, who uh extended this invitation to the president to come and and that's to the president to come and and that's to the president to come and and that's why you were there, was still not the why you were there, was still not the why you were there, was still not the crown prince. Uh were you aware of um crown prince. Uh were you aware of um crown prince. Uh were you aware of um him moving into position to become the him moving into position to become the him moving into position to become the crown prince? Were you aware of the crown prince? Were you aware of the crown prince? Were you aware of the tension between him and Muhammad bin tension between him and Muhammad bin tension between him and Muhammad bin Naif?

Naif? Naif? >> Uh I have to be careful how I talk about >> Uh I have to be careful how I talk about >> Uh I have to be careful how I talk about it obviously because I can't disclose it obviously because I can't disclose it obviously because I can't disclose things that I can't disclose. But we things that I can't disclose. But we things that I can't disclose. But we heard whispers, we heard movements, but heard whispers, we heard movements, but heard whispers, we heard movements, but until it happened, you know, we didn't until it happened, you know, we didn't until it happened, you know, we didn't know. know. know. >> At least I didn't know. >> At least I didn't know. >> At least I didn't know. >> You didn't have a sense that um MBN was >> You didn't have a sense that um MBN was >> You didn't have a sense that um MBN was on the way out. on the way out. on the way out. >> I can't really get into things like >> I can't really get into things like >> I can't really get into things like that, but I would say the little sense that, but I would say the little sense that, but I would say the little sense that I might have had meant nothing that I might have had meant nothing that I might have had meant nothing until it actually happened. until it actually happened. until it actually happened. >> What were the main things you were >> What were the main things you were >> What were the main things you were asking of MBS? asking of MBS? asking of MBS? >> Uh, one was to help us on the Israeli >> Uh, one was to help us on the Israeli >> Uh, one was to help us on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. We did not think Palestinian conflict. We did not think Palestinian conflict. We did not think that trying to put just the Israelis and that trying to put just the Israelis and that trying to put just the Israelis and the Palestinians in the room together the Palestinians in the room together the Palestinians in the room together would even with America's power, if you would even with America's power, if you would even with America's power, if you will, would resolve it. So, having will, would resolve it. So, having will, would resolve it. So, having countries like Saudi Arabia get countries like Saudi Arabia get countries like Saudi Arabia get involved, we thought could only help us. involved, we thought could only help us. involved, we thought could only help us. Um, they helped to a degree. They Um, they helped to a degree. They Um, they helped to a degree. They weren't in the room and they weren't um weren't in the room and they weren't um weren't in the room and they weren't um they probably didn't love the ideas that they probably didn't love the ideas that they probably didn't love the ideas that we were sharing with them. They probably we were sharing with them. They probably we were sharing with them. They probably thought they were too friendly to thought they were too friendly to thought they were too friendly to Israel, but they were more than willing Israel, but they were more than willing Israel, but they were more than willing to roll up their sleeves and give us to roll up their sleeves and give us to roll up their sleeves and give us their thoughts. Uh most of their their thoughts. Uh most of their their thoughts. Uh most of their thoughts were pretty traditional and we thoughts were pretty traditional and we thoughts were pretty traditional and we didn't think would resolve the conflict didn't think would resolve the conflict didn't think would resolve the conflict despite what people say. And there's a despite what people say. And there's a despite what people say. And there's a lot of people that say, "Oh, these lot of people that say, "Oh, these lot of people that say, "Oh, these countries, they don't care about the countries, they don't care about the countries, they don't care about the Palestinians. They deeply care about the Palestinians. They deeply care about the Palestinians. They deeply care about the Palestinians. They support the Palestinians. They support the Palestinians. They support the Palestinians. They were not abandoning Palestinians. They were not abandoning Palestinians. They were not abandoning the Palestinians." That's another the Palestinians." That's another the Palestinians." That's another misnomer I used to hear. Ah, the Saudis misnomer I used to hear. Ah, the Saudis misnomer I used to hear. Ah, the Saudis don't care. Well, there's a difference don't care. Well, there's a difference don't care. Well, there's a difference between the royal family in Saudi Arabia between the royal family in Saudi Arabia between the royal family in Saudi Arabia and the people of Saudi Arabia. And

and the people of Saudi Arabia. And and the people of Saudi Arabia. And there's a potential that MBS had a there's a potential that MBS had a there's a potential that MBS had a little more flexibility little more flexibility little more flexibility um of mind in looking at the Palestinian um of mind in looking at the Palestinian um of mind in looking at the Palestinian issue and might be willing to show a issue and might be willing to show a issue and might be willing to show a little bit of uh willingness to leaprog little bit of uh willingness to leaprog little bit of uh willingness to leaprog that issue. that issue. that issue. >> I think what NBS and all the leaders had >> I think what NBS and all the leaders had >> I think what NBS and all the leaders had was a desire to get past the issue, but was a desire to get past the issue, but was a desire to get past the issue, but not to abandon or sideline the not to abandon or sideline the not to abandon or sideline the Palestinians along the way. Because if Palestinians along the way. Because if Palestinians along the way. Because if you think about it, if you sideline you think about it, if you sideline you think about it, if you sideline them, and you know, we weren't so smart them, and you know, we weren't so smart them, and you know, we weren't so smart that we could have predicted October that we could have predicted October that we could have predicted October 7th, but it's not as if the bad guys are 7th, but it's not as if the bad guys are 7th, but it's not as if the bad guys are going to ever disappear. Even if going to ever disappear. Even if going to ever disappear. Even if President Trump manages to create this President Trump manages to create this President Trump manages to create this massive Abraham Accords architecture massive Abraham Accords architecture massive Abraham Accords architecture under today's situation, there's always under today's situation, there's always under today's situation, there's always going to be a Hamas Hezbollah ideology, going to be a Hamas Hezbollah ideology, going to be a Hamas Hezbollah ideology, an Iranian regime ideology lurking in an Iranian regime ideology lurking in an Iranian regime ideology lurking in the background and popping up. So NBS the background and popping up. So NBS the background and popping up. So NBS and none of these Arab leaders want to and none of these Arab leaders want to and none of these Arab leaders want to deal with that. So they are very careful deal with that. So they are very careful deal with that. So they are very careful how they approach this issue. how they approach this issue. how they approach this issue. Well, I talked to Ambassador Ratney um Well, I talked to Ambassador Ratney um Well, I talked to Ambassador Ratney um who told me that who told me that who told me that he imagined that Jared and you wanted to he imagined that Jared and you wanted to he imagined that Jared and you wanted to get Saudi Arabia on be on board because get Saudi Arabia on be on board because get Saudi Arabia on be on board because as he put it, Saudi Arabia was the big as he put it, Saudi Arabia was the big as he put it, Saudi Arabia was the big kahuna and if they would be willing to kahuna and if they would be willing to kahuna and if they would be willing to normalize or move towards normalization normalize or move towards normalization normalize or move towards normalization with Israel, other Arab nations would with Israel, other Arab nations would with Israel, other Arab nations would follow.

follow. follow. I think getting Saudi Arabia to have I think getting Saudi Arabia to have I think getting Saudi Arabia to have signed on to the concept of the signed on to the concept of the signed on to the concept of the Abrahamic Accords in the first term Abrahamic Accords in the first term Abrahamic Accords in the first term would have been a giant leap forward and would have been a giant leap forward and would have been a giant leap forward and I think many countries would have I think many countries would have I think many countries would have followed suit. Uh but Saudi Arabia followed suit. Uh but Saudi Arabia followed suit. Uh but Saudi Arabia wasn't ready for it then. It's wasn't ready for it then. It's wasn't ready for it then. It's unfortunately not ready for it now unfortunately not ready for it now unfortunately not ready for it now either. either. either. >> We had a significant period of crackdown >> We had a significant period of crackdown >> We had a significant period of crackdown in Saudi Arabia uh marked by uh as I in Saudi Arabia uh marked by uh as I in Saudi Arabia uh marked by uh as I mentioned the arrest of many mentioned the arrest of many mentioned the arrest of many opposition voices in the country. Uh, opposition voices in the country. Uh, opposition voices in the country. Uh, and then we had the events of November and then we had the events of November and then we had the events of November 4th when a lot of people were rounded up 4th when a lot of people were rounded up 4th when a lot of people were rounded up at the Ritz Carlton. Um, just before at the Ritz Carlton. Um, just before at the Ritz Carlton. Um, just before that trip, um, Jared Kushner visited that trip, um, Jared Kushner visited that trip, um, Jared Kushner visited with NBS, a matter of days or maybe a with NBS, a matter of days or maybe a with NBS, a matter of days or maybe a week or two, I don't know, beforehand. week or two, I don't know, beforehand. week or two, I don't know, beforehand. Do you know anything about that trip and Do you know anything about that trip and Do you know anything about that trip and what was discussed? what was discussed? what was discussed? >> I was on that trip. um usual topics of >> I was on that trip. um usual topics of >> I was on that trip. um usual topics of conversation, conversation, conversation, peace, stability, oil, money, you know, peace, stability, oil, money, you know, peace, stability, oil, money, you know, everything you would expect.

everything you would expect. everything you would expect. >> But at that time, um the planning was >> But at that time, um the planning was >> But at that time, um the planning was had to be in the works to have this had to be in the works to have this had to be in the works to have this what's been called the shakedown at the what's been called the shakedown at the what's been called the shakedown at the Ritz Carlton. That had to be in the Ritz Carlton. That had to be in the Ritz Carlton. That had to be in the works. Did that come up? works. Did that come up? works. Did that come up? >> No. I mean, I was with them for a very >> No. I mean, I was with them for a very >> No. I mean, I was with them for a very significant amount of time. I wasn't significant amount of time. I wasn't significant amount of time. I wasn't with them every minute, obviously. Never with them every minute, obviously. Never with them every minute, obviously. Never >> with NBS >> with NBS >> with NBS >> and Jared. Never came up in my presence. >> and Jared. Never came up in my presence. >> and Jared. Never came up in my presence. I'd be surprised if it came up in I'd be surprised if it came up in I'd be surprised if it came up in between the two of them, but I don't between the two of them, but I don't between the two of them, but I don't know the I can't speak to what to the know the I can't speak to what to the know the I can't speak to what to the times I wasn't in the room, but I was in times I wasn't in the room, but I was in times I wasn't in the room, but I was in the room a very significant amount of the room a very significant amount of the room a very significant amount of the time. the time. the time. >> Um there's the people have written about >> Um there's the people have written about >> Um there's the people have written about it um and said that uh Jared and NBS it um and said that uh Jared and NBS it um and said that uh Jared and NBS played video games late into the night. played video games late into the night. played video games late into the night. >> I remember the article something like >> I remember the article something like >> I remember the article something like they were up till 4 a.m. Well, the truth they were up till 4 a.m. Well, the truth they were up till 4 a.m. Well, the truth is we were up till at least I was up is we were up till at least I was up is we were up till at least I was up probably till 2 am, right? It's um probably till 2 am, right? It's um probably till 2 am, right? It's um you go there to multiple countries at you go there to multiple countries at you go there to multiple countries at once over the span of maybe three days. once over the span of maybe three days. once over the span of maybe three days. You work really hard. You have to stay You work really hard. You have to stay You work really hard. You have to stay up late into the night even if you're an up late into the night even if you're an up late into the night even if you're an American, but Saudi Arab culture American, but Saudi Arab culture American, but Saudi Arab culture generally starts the day a little bit generally starts the day a little bit generally starts the day a little bit later. Stays up really late. Um until I later. Stays up really late. Um until I later. Stays up really late. Um until I left the room, again, I can't speak left the room, again, I can't speak left the room, again, I can't speak about what happened after I left the about what happened after I left the about what happened after I left the room. We were talking plenty of coffee room. We were talking plenty of coffee room. We were talking plenty of coffee going around. Maybe we were ties off and going around. Maybe we were ties off and going around. Maybe we were ties off and maybe we were sitting in a modulus style maybe we were sitting in a modulus style maybe we were sitting in a modulus style setting instead of at a conference table setting instead of at a conference table setting instead of at a conference table >> in a in the desert, right?

>> in a in the desert, right? >> in a in the desert, right? >> Uh all over the place. I mean, they have >> Uh all over the place. I mean, they have >> Uh all over the place. I mean, they have uh some very beautiful places, but uh uh some very beautiful places, but uh uh some very beautiful places, but uh all business pleasantries, you know, all business pleasantries, you know, all business pleasantries, you know, relaxed atmosphere, but that's how you relaxed atmosphere, but that's how you relaxed atmosphere, but that's how you get business done. If you're going to get business done. If you're going to get business done. If you're going to sit at a conference room for 18 hours a sit at a conference room for 18 hours a sit at a conference room for 18 hours a day, uh maybe you get less business day, uh maybe you get less business day, uh maybe you get less business done. done. done. >> But you weren't playing video games. >> But you weren't playing video games. >> But you weren't playing video games. >> I I didn't. Then I didn't see anybody >> I I didn't. Then I didn't see anybody >> I I didn't. Then I didn't see anybody play video games. I did see some cool play video games. I did see some cool play video games. I did see some cool video games, but I didn't. video games, but I didn't. video games, but I didn't. >> And >> And >> And this goes to the issue of how close um this goes to the issue of how close um this goes to the issue of how close um Kushner and NBS became. Can you talk a Kushner and NBS became. Can you talk a Kushner and NBS became. Can you talk a little bit about that? What brought them little bit about that? What brought them little bit about that? What brought them together? Yeah, I mean I could really I together? Yeah, I mean I could really I together? Yeah, I mean I could really I I think one of the assets that people I think one of the assets that people I think one of the assets that people miss is when a president has not just a miss is when a president has not just a miss is when a president has not just a trusted adviser, but a family member who trusted adviser, but a family member who trusted adviser, but a family member who he trusts he trusts he trusts running a file like this. Being a family running a file like this. Being a family running a file like this. Being a family member matters to the region. Not just member matters to the region. Not just member matters to the region. Not just the Arabs, by the way, Israel, too. They the Arabs, by the way, Israel, too. They the Arabs, by the way, Israel, too. They all know that Jared um he didn't speak all know that Jared um he didn't speak all know that Jared um he didn't speak for the president, but he was as close for the president, but he was as close for the president, but he was as close as one can get uh to the president in as one can get uh to the president in as one can get uh to the president in terms of being able to connect with the terms of being able to connect with the terms of being able to connect with the president on issues that mattered. So, president on issues that mattered. So, president on issues that mattered. So, it's not just a relationship with NBS it's not just a relationship with NBS it's not just a relationship with NBS that he cultivated. He cultivated a that he cultivated. He cultivated a that he cultivated. He cultivated a relationship with every leader in the relationship with every leader in the relationship with every leader in the region. Uh some a little bit stronger region. Uh some a little bit stronger region. Uh some a little bit stronger than others. And um by the way, this is than others. And um by the way, this is than others. And um by the way, this is not before we get to Jared, I should not before we get to Jared, I should not before we get to Jared, I should really point this out. In diplomacy, really point this out. In diplomacy, really point this out. In diplomacy, every country in the world will use every country in the world will use every country in the world will use every lever that they can get to get every lever that they can get to get every lever that they can get to get their points across, whether at the

their points across, whether at the their points across, whether at the White House, the State Department, any White House, the State Department, any White House, the State Department, any agency, they need to know that their agency, they need to know that their agency, they need to know that their concerns and needs are going to be concerns and needs are going to be concerns and needs are going to be addressed or heard or thought about. So, addressed or heard or thought about. So, addressed or heard or thought about. So, they will try to find everybody from the they will try to find everybody from the they will try to find everybody from the most junior staffer to the most senior most junior staffer to the most senior most junior staffer to the most senior staffer to try to get the attention that staffer to try to get the attention that staffer to try to get the attention that they need. So Jared was a gift to them they need. So Jared was a gift to them they need. So Jared was a gift to them and he was a gift to the White House and he was a gift to the White House and he was a gift to the White House because he was able to bridge that gap, because he was able to bridge that gap, because he was able to bridge that gap, get close to everybody, be respected by get close to everybody, be respected by get close to everybody, be respected by everybody, and talk to them in a way everybody, and talk to them in a way everybody, and talk to them in a way that wasn't diplomatically forced, but that wasn't diplomatically forced, but that wasn't diplomatically forced, but rather rather rather um I'll use the coming from me, it's um I'll use the coming from me, it's um I'll use the coming from me, it's going to sound funny, let let their hair going to sound funny, let let their hair going to sound funny, let let their hair down, right? just how do we shoot the down, right? just how do we shoot the down, right? just how do we shoot the breeze and figure out how do we get breeze and figure out how do we get breeze and figure out how do we get these problems resolved versus sitting these problems resolved versus sitting these problems resolved versus sitting there very uptight with note cards there very uptight with note cards there very uptight with note cards talking about diplomatic points that talking about diplomatic points that talking about diplomatic points that mean nothing and say nothing if you mean nothing and say nothing if you mean nothing and say nothing if you think about uh statements that let's say think about uh statements that let's say think about uh statements that let's say come out of the United Nations right come out of the United Nations right come out of the United Nations right they're highly stylized highly scripted they're highly stylized highly scripted they're highly stylized highly scripted a lot of them don't say a whole lot we a lot of them don't say a whole lot we a lot of them don't say a whole lot we had maybe five minutes of formal let's had maybe five minutes of formal let's had maybe five minutes of formal let's look at the note cards make sure we look at the note cards make sure we look at the note cards make sure we cover everything you know we did on the cover everything you know we did on the cover everything you know we did on the state department side whatever they state department side whatever they state department side whatever they wanted us to say and the National wanted us to say and the National wanted us to say and the National Security Council, the Arabs and the Security Council, the Arabs and the Security Council, the Arabs and the Israelis did the same. Then you put the Israelis did the same. Then you put the Israelis did the same. Then you put the note cards aside and you shoot the note cards aside and you shoot the note cards aside and you shoot the breeze in a way that actually could lead breeze in a way that actually could lead breeze in a way that actually could lead to progress. And if anybody thinks to progress. And if anybody thinks to progress. And if anybody thinks that's strange, you know, look what that's strange, you know, look what that's strange, you know, look what President Trump accomplished out of that President Trump accomplished out of that President Trump accomplished out of that came the Abraham Accords. I mean, you're came the Abraham Accords. I mean, you're came the Abraham Accords. I mean, you're sort of speaking to this, but I'll the sort of speaking to this, but I'll the sort of speaking to this, but I'll the harshest criticism that um one hears harshest criticism that um one hears harshest criticism that um one hears about Jared Kushner is that he came in,

about Jared Kushner is that he came in, about Jared Kushner is that he came in, he had no experience in diplomacy. He he had no experience in diplomacy. He he had no experience in diplomacy. He was a real estate um man and he went was a real estate um man and he went was a real estate um man and he went into these situations without any into these situations without any into these situations without any experience uh whatsoever. experience uh whatsoever. experience uh whatsoever. I've seen those criticisms. Well, let's I've seen those criticisms. Well, let's I've seen those criticisms. Well, let's talk about the very beginning of the talk about the very beginning of the talk about the very beginning of the criticisms because most of them come criticisms because most of them come criticisms because most of them come either from the media, not every media, either from the media, not every media, either from the media, not every media, um or think tanks or people from the um or think tanks or people from the um or think tanks or people from the other side, you know, let's say the other side, you know, let's say the other side, you know, let's say the Democrats or people that don't like Democrats or people that don't like Democrats or people that don't like Trump, whatever you want to define the Trump, whatever you want to define the Trump, whatever you want to define the other side as. One of the first other side as. One of the first other side as. One of the first criticism lodged against the three of criticism lodged against the three of criticism lodged against the three of us, Jared, David Freeman, who was our us, Jared, David Freeman, who was our us, Jared, David Freeman, who was our ambassador, and me was, "What? Do these ambassador, and me was, "What? Do these ambassador, and me was, "What? Do these three Orthodox Jews know anything about three Orthodox Jews know anything about three Orthodox Jews know anything about the Arabs and making peace with the the Arabs and making peace with the the Arabs and making peace with the Arabs?" Well, guess what? We didn't do Arabs?" Well, guess what? We didn't do Arabs?" Well, guess what? We didn't do so bad, right? We had a unique so bad, right? We had a unique so bad, right? We had a unique circumstance, a unique president, a circumstance, a unique president, a circumstance, a unique president, a unique time in history, uh, willing open unique time in history, uh, willing open unique time in history, uh, willing open ears. But I ne at first that criticism ears. But I ne at first that criticism ears. But I ne at first that criticism bothered me. But when I started to read bothered me. But when I started to read bothered me. But when I started to read the criticism and understand the the criticism and understand the the criticism and understand the criticism and people talking about me criticism and people talking about me criticism and people talking about me who never met me, didn't know a thing who never met me, didn't know a thing who never met me, didn't know a thing about me before I even started doing about me before I even started doing about me before I even started doing media appearances or wrote things, a lot media appearances or wrote things, a lot media appearances or wrote things, a lot of the criticism is just people with an of the criticism is just people with an of the criticism is just people with an agenda. So that doesn't bother me. As to agenda. So that doesn't bother me. As to agenda. So that doesn't bother me. As to Jared specifically, you know, what did Jared specifically, you know, what did Jared specifically, you know, what did they think? He was a baby. I mean, he they think? He was a baby. I mean, he they think? He was a baby. I mean, he had a very successful business. He ran a had a very successful business. He ran a had a very successful business. He ran a very successful business. Just because very successful business. Just because very successful business. Just because he wasn't a diplomat, that doesn't mean he wasn't a diplomat, that doesn't mean he wasn't a diplomat, that doesn't mean he wasn't smart, strategic, could learn he wasn't smart, strategic, could learn he wasn't smart, strategic, could learn quickly. Uh people make fun of a quote quickly. Uh people make fun of a quote quickly. Uh people make fun of a quote he once said about how many books he he once said about how many books he he once said about how many books he read. Yeah, he was very earnest in what read. Yeah, he was very earnest in what read. Yeah, he was very earnest in what he tried to do. And besides that, like he tried to do. And besides that, like he tried to do. And besides that, like me, he got briefed by the CIA. He got me, he got briefed by the CIA. He got me, he got briefed by the CIA. He got briefed by, I assume, the FBI. He got

briefed by, I assume, the FBI. He got briefed by, I assume, the FBI. He got briefed by the State Department. He got briefed by the State Department. He got briefed by the State Department. He got briefed by the National Security briefed by the National Security briefed by the National Security Council. We spent the better part of Council. We spent the better part of Council. We spent the better part of 2017 learning the file. So, I think he 2017 learning the file. So, I think he 2017 learning the file. So, I think he came pretty much up to speed pretty came pretty much up to speed pretty came pretty much up to speed pretty quickly because he's a smart guy. quickly because he's a smart guy. quickly because he's a smart guy. One of the critics um that I spoke to One of the critics um that I spoke to One of the critics um that I spoke to back in 2019 when I was working on back in 2019 when I was working on back in 2019 when I was working on another project, but in his interview, another project, but in his interview, another project, but in his interview, Martin Indic said um they had no Martin Indic said um they had no Martin Indic said um they had no interest in in learning from me. They interest in in learning from me. They interest in in learning from me. They didn't want they didn't care. They didn't want they didn't care. They didn't want they didn't care. They rejected me. rejected me. rejected me. Look, I'll pause a little bit because Look, I'll pause a little bit because Look, I'll pause a little bit because Martin is no longer with us and I don't Martin is no longer with us and I don't Martin is no longer with us and I don't want to say anything unkind because I want to say anything unkind because I want to say anything unkind because I liked him genuinely as a person. I spent liked him genuinely as a person. I spent liked him genuinely as a person. I spent a lot of time with Martin. Maybe Jared a lot of time with Martin. Maybe Jared a lot of time with Martin. Maybe Jared spent less time with Martin. I spent a spent less time with Martin. I spent a spent less time with Martin. I spent a lot of time with Martin. I heard him out lot of time with Martin. I heard him out lot of time with Martin. I heard him out just like I heard out most think tank just like I heard out most think tank just like I heard out most think tank people, not all. And I found the people, not all. And I found the people, not all. And I found the conversations useful. Like everything is conversations useful. Like everything is conversations useful. Like everything is useful when you're trying to absorb like useful when you're trying to absorb like useful when you're trying to absorb like a sponge. But there's a difference a sponge. But there's a difference a sponge. But there's a difference between between between um listening and learning and accepting.

um listening and learning and accepting. um listening and learning and accepting. Just because we didn't think Martin's Just because we didn't think Martin's Just because we didn't think Martin's way was correct doesn't mean we didn't way was correct doesn't mean we didn't way was correct doesn't mean we didn't listen and try to understand it and fold listen and try to understand it and fold listen and try to understand it and fold it into the wider picture. He's not the it into the wider picture. He's not the it into the wider picture. He's not the first guy who we listened to and didn't first guy who we listened to and didn't first guy who we listened to and didn't agree with. If you want to take maybe agree with. If you want to take maybe agree with. If you want to take maybe the most prominent person, let's talk the most prominent person, let's talk the most prominent person, let's talk about Secretary Kerry, who I never had about Secretary Kerry, who I never had about Secretary Kerry, who I never had the opportunity to meet, but Secretary the opportunity to meet, but Secretary the opportunity to meet, but Secretary Kerry, not long before we're in office, Kerry, not long before we're in office, Kerry, not long before we're in office, I don't remember when he did this, when I don't remember when he did this, when I don't remember when he did this, when he said this, and this is not an exact he said this, and this is not an exact he said this, and this is not an exact quote, but almost an exact quote. No, quote, but almost an exact quote. No, quote, but almost an exact quote. No, no, no. There will never be peace with no, no. There will never be peace with no, no. There will never be peace with Israel and the Arab neighbors until Israel and the Arab neighbors until Israel and the Arab neighbors until there's peace with the Palestinians. there's peace with the Palestinians. there's peace with the Palestinians. It's funny that he used the no no It's funny that he used the no no It's funny that he used the no no because that was the sort of the cartoon because that was the sort of the cartoon because that was the sort of the cartoon known. It's like a mirror image but a known. It's like a mirror image but a known. It's like a mirror image but a different purpose. He was dead wrong. He different purpose. He was dead wrong. He different purpose. He was dead wrong. He might have been right for decades, might have been right for decades, might have been right for decades, right? But in the time and space right? But in the time and space right? But in the time and space historically speaking that we were in, historically speaking that we were in, historically speaking that we were in, even though he was saying it, he was even though he was saying it, he was even though he was saying it, he was dead wrong. So Martin and others who dead wrong. So Martin and others who dead wrong. So Martin and others who make comments like that, uh, forgive me make comments like that, uh, forgive me make comments like that, uh, forgive me if I say they're not only inaccurate, if I say they're not only inaccurate, if I say they're not only inaccurate, but they're, but they're, but they're, uh, they're a little bit, um, I'm uh, they're a little bit, um, I'm uh, they're a little bit, um, I'm searching for the word, like they feel searching for the word, like they feel searching for the word, like they feel upset that we didn't take their advice upset that we didn't take their advice upset that we didn't take their advice and run with it. If we took their advice and run with it. If we took their advice and run with it. If we took their advice and ran with it, there would be no and ran with it, there would be no and ran with it, there would be no Abraham Accords. And that's not Abraham Accords. And that's not Abraham Accords. And that's not dismissive or disrespectful of Martin.

dismissive or disrespectful of Martin. dismissive or disrespectful of Martin. Smart guy, good guy. He didn't agree Smart guy, good guy. He didn't agree Smart guy, good guy. He didn't agree with our approach. with our approach. with our approach. the murder of Jamal Hashoji. the murder of Jamal Hashoji. the murder of Jamal Hashoji. Uh the decision uh were you part of the Uh the decision uh were you part of the Uh the decision uh were you part of the decision being made at the White House decision being made at the White House decision being made at the White House as to how to respond to that? as to how to respond to that? as to how to respond to that? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> You were >> You were >> You were you were still there? you were still there? you were still there? >> I was still there. >> I was still there. >> I was still there. I mean this seems that I mean this seems that I mean this seems that I mean this supports the notion that I mean this supports the notion that I mean this supports the notion that somehow the crown prince had been uh somehow the crown prince had been uh somehow the crown prince had been uh seemingly free to do whatever he wanted seemingly free to do whatever he wanted seemingly free to do whatever he wanted that he felt that he could get away with that he felt that he could get away with that he felt that he could get away with this. this. this. >> So I'll speak about myself. You know how >> So I'll speak about myself. You know how >> So I'll speak about myself. You know how I see it. I can't speak about I see it. I can't speak about I see it. I can't speak about deliberations um within the White House deliberations um within the White House deliberations um within the White House because I wasn't part of it. And I want because I wasn't part of it. And I want because I wasn't part of it. And I want to try to be very precise though that to try to be very precise though that to try to be very precise though that happened many years ago. So hopefully my happened many years ago. So hopefully my happened many years ago. So hopefully my memory is correct. memory is correct. memory is correct. You had a a gruesome grizzly murder. You had a a gruesome grizzly murder. You had a a gruesome grizzly murder. Terrible. You had a 2018, I believe, Terrible. You had a 2018, I believe, Terrible. You had a 2018, I believe, leaked CIA assessment initially. So, a leaked CIA assessment initially. So, a leaked CIA assessment initially. So, a leaked report right away suspect. It's leaked report right away suspect. It's leaked report right away suspect. It's uh if it was unauthorized, which as I uh if it was unauthorized, which as I uh if it was unauthorized, which as I recall it was unauthorized, it's it's recall it was unauthorized, it's it's recall it was unauthorized, it's it's actually a crime. Um and it was an actually a crime. Um and it was an actually a crime. Um and it was an assessment that uh said I think the assessment that uh said I think the assessment that uh said I think the words were highly confident this words were highly confident this words were highly confident this happened. Uh so that's step number one.

happened. Uh so that's step number one. happened. Uh so that's step number one. And by the way, I've seen CIA And by the way, I've seen CIA And by the way, I've seen CIA assessments that were wrong many times. assessments that were wrong many times. assessments that were wrong many times. So, it's an assessment. So, it's an assessment. So, it's an assessment. >> We know about the war in Iraq, >> We know about the war in Iraq, >> We know about the war in Iraq, >> right? Then you had 2020 or 2021 a >> right? Then you had 2020 or 2021 a >> right? Then you had 2020 or 2021 a declassified declassified declassified report. Uh I forget which agency put it report. Uh I forget which agency put it report. Uh I forget which agency put it out that had a different um conclusion out that had a different um conclusion out that had a different um conclusion that I think the CIA one from 2018 that that I think the CIA one from 2018 that that I think the CIA one from 2018 that was leaked said he ordered it. I think was leaked said he ordered it. I think was leaked said he ordered it. I think the 20 or 21 report said he approved it. the 20 or 21 report said he approved it. the 20 or 21 report said he approved it. um but also an assessment and those um but also an assessment and those um but also an assessment and those assessments are written for policy assessments are written for policy assessments are written for policy makers. Are they right? Are they wrong? makers. Are they right? Are they wrong? makers. Are they right? Are they wrong? Here's my take on it. We have at least Here's my take on it. We have at least Here's my take on it. We have at least in America a concept of in America a concept of in America a concept of uh you know um uh you know um uh you know um um beyond a reasonable doubt, right? So um beyond a reasonable doubt, right? So um beyond a reasonable doubt, right? So if you take the leaked report which was if you take the leaked report which was if you take the leaked report which was an assessment, the declassified report an assessment, the declassified report an assessment, the declassified report which is an assessment that differs from which is an assessment that differs from which is an assessment that differs from the original report and you have NBS who the original report and you have NBS who the original report and you have NBS who said he didn't do it. You know, I'm not said he didn't do it. You know, I'm not said he didn't do it. You know, I'm not a judge. I'm not a jury. I don't know a judge. I'm not a jury. I don't know a judge. I'm not a jury. I don't know what happened, but I also can't condemn what happened, but I also can't condemn what happened, but I also can't condemn somebody based on that kind of evidence.

somebody based on that kind of evidence. somebody based on that kind of evidence. We would never condemn somebody based on We would never condemn somebody based on We would never condemn somebody based on that kind of evidence. that kind of evidence. that kind of evidence. >> Well, the circumstantial evidence was >> Well, the circumstantial evidence was >> Well, the circumstantial evidence was quite strong. quite strong. quite strong. >> But we never convict on murder based on >> But we never convict on murder based on >> But we never convict on murder based on circumstantial evidence. Like, how could circumstantial evidence. Like, how could circumstantial evidence. Like, how could I hold him to a lesser standard than we I hold him to a lesser standard than we I hold him to a lesser standard than we uphold ourselves to? I just don't know uphold ourselves to? I just don't know uphold ourselves to? I just don't know what happened. I can't comment one. what happened. I can't comment one. what happened. I can't comment one. >> What did it do to your efforts to draw >> What did it do to your efforts to draw >> What did it do to your efforts to draw Saudi Arabia uh closer to Israel? Did it Saudi Arabia uh closer to Israel? Did it Saudi Arabia uh closer to Israel? Did it have any impact? have any impact? have any impact? >> I don't think so. I mean, terrible thing >> I don't think so. I mean, terrible thing >> I don't think so. I mean, terrible thing though it was, we still have to do though it was, we still have to do though it was, we still have to do business, right? business, right? business, right? >> Did you talk with the crown prince >> Did you talk with the crown prince >> Did you talk with the crown prince afterwards? afterwards? afterwards? >> We met him many times afterwards. Things >> We met him many times afterwards. Things >> We met him many times afterwards. Things were still going on. Until I left the were still going on. Until I left the were still going on. Until I left the White House at the end of 2019, we had White House at the end of 2019, we had White House at the end of 2019, we had plenty of conversations. plenty of conversations. plenty of conversations. >> Did you ask him directly about the >> Did you ask him directly about the >> Did you ask him directly about the murder? murder? murder? >> Not my role to do that. >> Not my role to do that. >> Not my role to do that. >> I want to get to October 7th. Um, >> I want to get to October 7th. Um, >> I want to get to October 7th. Um, you say you weren't smart enough to you say you weren't smart enough to you say you weren't smart enough to predict October 7th. A few people were predict October 7th. A few people were predict October 7th. A few people were uh but there is the idea that the uh but there is the idea that the uh but there is the idea that the Abraham Accords were not giving well let Abraham Accords were not giving well let Abraham Accords were not giving well let me ask it this way what was in the me ask it this way what was in the me ask it this way what was in the Abraham Accords for the Palestinians specifically nothing but if they had specifically nothing but if they had actually put their hand up and said hey actually put their hand up and said hey actually put their hand up and said hey we can be the glue here we know Israel we can be the glue here we know Israel we can be the glue here we know Israel we know the Arabs we speak Hebrew some we know the Arabs we speak Hebrew some we know the Arabs we speak Hebrew some of us we speak Arabic we could be great of us we speak Arabic we could be great of us we speak Arabic we could be great partners here for everybody. That would partners here for everybody. That would partners here for everybody. That would have been a huge benefit to them. Every have been a huge benefit to them. Every have been a huge benefit to them. Every which way we ever dealt with the which way we ever dealt with the which way we ever dealt with the Palestinians, they were never Palestinians, they were never Palestinians, they were never interested, the leadership, not the

interested, the leadership, not the interested, the leadership, not the people. Big big difference, by the way. people. Big big difference, by the way. people. Big big difference, by the way. They were never interested in talking They were never interested in talking They were never interested in talking about real economic and social and um about real economic and social and um about real economic and social and um benefit benefit benefit programs to actually help the people programs to actually help the people programs to actually help the people while the conflict is brewing. Meaning while the conflict is brewing. Meaning while the conflict is brewing. Meaning if we weren't successful solving the if we weren't successful solving the if we weren't successful solving the political angle, we still wanted to help political angle, we still wanted to help political angle, we still wanted to help their lives economically and otherwise. their lives economically and otherwise. their lives economically and otherwise. The leadership had no interest in that. The leadership had no interest in that. The leadership had no interest in that. So with the Abraham Accords, So with the Abraham Accords, So with the Abraham Accords, that was a fly in their ointment. They that was a fly in their ointment. They that was a fly in their ointment. They were not interested in joining the were not interested in joining the were not interested in joining the Abraham Accords in any shape or form Abraham Accords in any shape or form Abraham Accords in any shape or form even if it could benefit the people even if it could benefit the people even if it could benefit the people economically because it left behind the economically because it left behind the economically because it left behind the politics. Okay, that's their choice. I politics. Okay, that's their choice. I politics. Okay, that's their choice. I think it's a poor choice, but therefore think it's a poor choice, but therefore think it's a poor choice, but therefore there was nothing in it for them because there was nothing in it for them because there was nothing in it for them because they chose to sit out. they chose to sit out. they chose to sit out. >> So you put it on them. You could not >> So you put it on them. You could not >> So you put it on them. You could not have done more to offer something to the have done more to offer something to the have done more to offer something to the Palestinians. Palestinians. Palestinians. >> They were out. They weren't interested >> They were out. They weren't interested >> They were out. They weren't interested in talking to us anymore. Would we have in talking to us anymore. Would we have in talking to us anymore. Would we have offered them some of the one some of offered them some of the one some of offered them some of the one some of their asks? For example, if I go back to their asks? For example, if I go back to their asks? For example, if I go back to the people who visited me at the White the people who visited me at the White the people who visited me at the White House after we were cut off, the people House after we were cut off, the people House after we were cut off, the people who purported to come on behalf of who purported to come on behalf of who purported to come on behalf of Abbas, why can't you make an Abbas, why can't you make an Abbas, why can't you make an announcement that East Jerusalem will be announcement that East Jerusalem will be announcement that East Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel and then we'll the capital of Israel and then we'll the capital of Israel and then we'll come back to the table? Like, why would come back to the table? Like, why would come back to the table? Like, why would we give you something that's supposed to we give you something that's supposed to we give you something that's supposed to be a negotiated point just to get you be a negotiated point just to get you be a negotiated point just to get you back at the table so maybe we can make a back at the table so maybe we can make a back at the table so maybe we can make a deal? That doesn't make any sense. Why deal? That doesn't make any sense. Why deal? That doesn't make any sense. Why don't you do this? Why don't you do don't you do this? Why don't you do don't you do this? Why don't you do that? They were constantly asking for that? They were constantly asking for that? They were constantly asking for things to take chips off the table, but

things to take chips off the table, but things to take chips off the table, but with no commitment on their part to with no commitment on their part to with no commitment on their part to actually solve the problem. There's no actually solve the problem. There's no actually solve the problem. There's no benefit to doing that. It's ironic. It's benefit to doing that. It's ironic. It's benefit to doing that. It's ironic. It's a style of negotiation. And it's ironic a style of negotiation. And it's ironic a style of negotiation. And it's ironic that we're sort of facing that issue now that we're sort of facing that issue now that we're sort of facing that issue now with Iran, right? Uh open up the with Iran, right? Uh open up the with Iran, right? Uh open up the straight and we'll talk about nuclear is straight and we'll talk about nuclear is straight and we'll talk about nuclear is what the Iranians are saying. And what the Iranians are saying. And what the Iranians are saying. And Trump's view is why would I do that Trump's view is why would I do that Trump's view is why would I do that right now? We may see that change in the right now? We may see that change in the right now? We may see that change in the coming days. coming days. coming days. >> You may do just that. President Trump >> You may do just that. President Trump >> You may do just that. President Trump came to office promising to keep the came to office promising to keep the came to office promising to keep the United States uh out of foreign United States uh out of foreign United States uh out of foreign entanglements. He pledged an America entanglements. He pledged an America entanglements. He pledged an America first agenda. first agenda. first agenda. Uh but yet Uh but yet Uh but yet he's in a war uh with Iran. he's in a war uh with Iran. he's in a war uh with Iran. How does the war with Iran uh advance How does the war with Iran uh advance How does the war with Iran uh advance his America first agenda? So foreign his America first agenda? So foreign his America first agenda? So foreign entanglements, my guess to him means entanglements, my guess to him means entanglements, my guess to him means something like Ukraine where he clearly something like Ukraine where he clearly something like Ukraine where he clearly believes that the Ukraine issue is believes that the Ukraine issue is believes that the Ukraine issue is Europe's first and foremost. Whether we Europe's first and foremost. Whether we Europe's first and foremost. Whether we should help Europe or not, he thinks should help Europe or not, he thinks should help Europe or not, he thinks that it's not America's job to be a that it's not America's job to be a that it's not America's job to be a policeman. That would be an example of a policeman. That would be an example of a policeman. That would be an example of a foreign entanglement that has less to do foreign entanglement that has less to do foreign entanglement that has less to do with America first. Uh in particular, with America first. Uh in particular, with America first. Uh in particular, because there are people that come because there are people that come because there are people that come before us whose job it is to fix this before us whose job it is to fix this before us whose job it is to fix this problem. Um, when it comes to things problem. Um, when it comes to things problem. Um, when it comes to things like Iran, there are multiple reasons like Iran, there are multiple reasons like Iran, there are multiple reasons why it is an America first problem. If why it is an America first problem. If why it is an America first problem. If Iran could attack Iran could attack Iran could attack the region, let's start with Israel. If the region, let's start with Israel. If the region, let's start with Israel. If Iran could attack Israel with nuclear Iran could attack Israel with nuclear Iran could attack Israel with nuclear weapons, missiles, etc., that's not only

weapons, missiles, etc., that's not only weapons, missiles, etc., that's not only bad for an ally of the United States, bad for an ally of the United States, bad for an ally of the United States, it's bad for America, destabilizes the it's bad for America, destabilizes the it's bad for America, destabilizes the whole region. If Iran can attack, and whole region. If Iran can attack, and whole region. If Iran can attack, and they have the Arab countries, that only they have the Arab countries, that only they have the Arab countries, that only heightens the tension and makes it heightens the tension and makes it heightens the tension and makes it worse. So, we're seeing a problem that worse. So, we're seeing a problem that worse. So, we're seeing a problem that Iran is. People might want to blame him Iran is. People might want to blame him Iran is. People might want to blame him for lighting the match, except the for lighting the match, except the for lighting the match, except the problem is the fuel was there. Sorry to problem is the fuel was there. Sorry to problem is the fuel was there. Sorry to use that pun, I guess. Right. Iran built use that pun, I guess. Right. Iran built use that pun, I guess. Right. Iran built the missiles, reached toward nuclear the missiles, reached toward nuclear the missiles, reached toward nuclear weapon capability, built the drones with weapon capability, built the drones with weapon capability, built the drones with a plan of whether they could destroy a plan of whether they could destroy a plan of whether they could destroy Israel or not, attacking the region. All Israel or not, attacking the region. All Israel or not, attacking the region. All of that is terrible for the United of that is terrible for the United of that is terrible for the United States. So I view this as a very States. So I view this as a very States. So I view this as a very different type of foreign entanglement different type of foreign entanglement different type of foreign entanglement that does advance America's interests that does advance America's interests that does advance America's interests and the interests of our allies. and the interests of our allies. and the interests of our allies. >> Why go with military force? At the time >> Why go with military force? At the time >> Why go with military force? At the time there was uh the choice made uh to stop there was uh the choice made uh to stop there was uh the choice made uh to stop talking and to attack and I can't talking and to attack and I can't talking and to attack and I can't imagine a situation that isn't more imagine a situation that isn't more imagine a situation that isn't more tangled than the war in Iran is today tangled than the war in Iran is today tangled than the war in Iran is today >> because at some point you have to stop >> because at some point you have to stop >> because at some point you have to stop talking if you think the other side talking if you think the other side talking if you think the other side really isn't talking to you. They're really isn't talking to you. They're really isn't talking to you. They're just buying time, which is the style of just buying time, which is the style of just buying time, which is the style of the Iranian negotiators.

the Iranian negotiators. the Iranian negotiators. >> Isn't that what Hamas was doing on >> Isn't that what Hamas was doing on >> Isn't that what Hamas was doing on October 7th? October 7th? October 7th? >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> They didn't want they didn't feel they >> They didn't want they didn't feel they >> They didn't want they didn't feel they had any uh way to continue talking. Uh had any uh way to continue talking. Uh had any uh way to continue talking. Uh so they struck out so they struck out so they struck out >> with horrendous violence against >> with horrendous violence against >> with horrendous violence against >> Hamas was never talking to Israel. They >> Hamas was never talking to Israel. They >> Hamas was never talking to Israel. They might have had like a hoodna, right? The might have had like a hoodna, right? The might have had like a hoodna, right? The temporary peace, but Hamas had no temporary peace, but Hamas had no temporary peace, but Hamas had no interest and still has no interest in interest and still has no interest in interest and still has no interest in making peace with Israel. Iran at least making peace with Israel. Iran at least making peace with Israel. Iran at least pretended to want to make some sort of pretended to want to make some sort of pretended to want to make some sort of agreement with the United States, but at agreement with the United States, but at agreement with the United States, but at some point you realize they're just some point you realize they're just some point you realize they're just fooling around. fooling around. fooling around. >> Let me ask it this way. Why did the >> Let me ask it this way. Why did the >> Let me ask it this way. Why did the United States have to go to war with United States have to go to war with United States have to go to war with Iran? Now, Iran? Now, Iran? Now, >> well, I think a couple of reasons, and >> well, I think a couple of reasons, and >> well, I think a couple of reasons, and I'm not privy to intelligence reports, I'm not privy to intelligence reports, I'm not privy to intelligence reports, but I think what they got, and I think but I think what they got, and I think but I think what they got, and I think Secretary Rubio has said this pretty Secretary Rubio has said this pretty Secretary Rubio has said this pretty clearly. The intelligence they must have clearly. The intelligence they must have clearly. The intelligence they must have gotten showed that Iran was very close gotten showed that Iran was very close gotten showed that Iran was very close to making their weaponry, whether it's to making their weaponry, whether it's to making their weaponry, whether it's the nuclear uh enrichment facilities or the nuclear uh enrichment facilities or the nuclear uh enrichment facilities or the missile production, maybe something the missile production, maybe something the missile production, maybe something else, almost uh indestructible. So, at else, almost uh indestructible. So, at else, almost uh indestructible. So, at some point you have to ask yourself, some point you have to ask yourself, some point you have to ask yourself, well, if we reach that bridge, then well, if we reach that bridge, then well, if we reach that bridge, then we'll never be able to fix this problem.

we'll never be able to fix this problem. we'll never be able to fix this problem. War is hard. Wars never, you know, I War is hard. Wars never, you know, I War is hard. Wars never, you know, I know that President Trump sometimes know that President Trump sometimes know that President Trump sometimes makes it seem like it'll be over makes it seem like it'll be over makes it seem like it'll be over quickly, but quickly, but quickly, but >> he says we've won. >> he says we've won. >> he says we've won. >> Yeah, it doesn't really work that way. >> Yeah, it doesn't really work that way. >> Yeah, it doesn't really work that way. So, why did we go then? I think they So, why did we go then? I think they So, why did we go then? I think they need they reached the point of no need they reached the point of no need they reached the point of no return. An Iranian regime that wasn't return. An Iranian regime that wasn't return. An Iranian regime that wasn't serious about talking, reaching a point serious about talking, reaching a point serious about talking, reaching a point of maybe making it more costly both in of maybe making it more costly both in of maybe making it more costly both in terms of lives, US lives and others. uh terms of lives, US lives and others. uh terms of lives, US lives and others. uh c real dollars to try to destroy their c real dollars to try to destroy their c real dollars to try to destroy their capabilities. capabilities. capabilities. And we may never get beyond that. All And we may never get beyond that. All And we may never get beyond that. All the best we may be able to do, which is the best we may be able to do, which is the best we may be able to do, which is what Israel has done with Hamas and what Israel has done with Hamas and what Israel has done with Hamas and Hezbollah, is just kick them back a Hezbollah, is just kick them back a Hezbollah, is just kick them back a bunch of yards. I don't know that you'll bunch of yards. I don't know that you'll bunch of yards. I don't know that you'll ever be able to completely cause them to ever be able to completely cause them to ever be able to completely cause them to surrender. I hope I hope so. Iran's a surrender. I hope I hope so. Iran's a surrender. I hope I hope so. Iran's a little bit different. It's actually a little bit different. It's actually a little bit different. It's actually a state as opposed to Hezbollah and Hamas. state as opposed to Hezbollah and Hamas. state as opposed to Hezbollah and Hamas. But sometimes with ideology like that, But sometimes with ideology like that, But sometimes with ideology like that, you can't necessarily hope to uproot it. you can't necessarily hope to uproot it. you can't necessarily hope to uproot it. Or you hope you can, but you can't Or you hope you can, but you can't Or you hope you can, but you can't necessarily do it. necessarily do it. necessarily do it. >> I have a thousand questions and we could >> I have a thousand questions and we could >> I have a thousand questions and we could go on talking about this very thing. Um, go on talking about this very thing. Um, go on talking about this very thing. Um, sounds like going all the way back to sounds like going all the way back to sounds like going all the way back to >> second documentary.

>> second documentary. >> second documentary. >> Yeah. All the way back to 1979 and some >> Yeah. All the way back to 1979 and some >> Yeah. All the way back to 1979 and some meddling that we and the British did meddling that we and the British did meddling that we and the British did then then then >> that have led to the animosity that >> that have led to the animosity that >> that have led to the animosity that there exists today and the chanting there exists today and the chanting there exists today and the chanting death to America. Um, but haven't we death to America. Um, but haven't we death to America. Um, but haven't we just ensured uh more generations of just ensured uh more generations of just ensured uh more generations of hostility? hostility? hostility? >> I don't buy the argument. I know they >> I don't buy the argument. I know they >> I don't buy the argument. I know they make it with respect to Palestinians and make it with respect to Palestinians and make it with respect to Palestinians and Israelis like if it takes if I need to Israelis like if it takes if I need to Israelis like if it takes if I need to protect my family or the president needs protect my family or the president needs protect my family or the president needs to protect our country or any leader to protect our country or any leader to protect our country or any leader needs to protect their country. You needs to protect their country. You needs to protect their country. You don't cower in fear and say, "Well, if I don't cower in fear and say, "Well, if I don't cower in fear and say, "Well, if I strike back or if I attack them, I'm strike back or if I attack them, I'm strike back or if I attack them, I'm going to create more people who want to going to create more people who want to going to create more people who want to attack me." The reality is they want to attack me." The reality is they want to attack me." The reality is they want to attack us. They want to wipe Israel off attack us. They want to wipe Israel off attack us. They want to wipe Israel off the map. They want to take over the the map. They want to take over the the map. They want to take over the Gulf. They want to attack America. They Gulf. They want to attack America. They Gulf. They want to attack America. They were building missiles that reportedly were building missiles that reportedly were building missiles that reportedly could reach London. Uh so do you just could reach London. Uh so do you just could reach London. Uh so do you just say, "Okay, that's life. I'll take it say, "Okay, that's life. I'll take it say, "Okay, that's life. I'll take it and hope for the best." No. I think I'd and hope for the best." No. I think I'd and hope for the best." No. I think I'd rather protect my family, even if I make rather protect my family, even if I make rather protect my family, even if I make some enemies along the way.

some enemies along the way. some enemies along the way. >> I want to jump to um this question of um >> I want to jump to um this question of um >> I want to jump to um this question of um of monetizing the presidency of monetizing the presidency of monetizing the presidency in the second term. in the second term. in the second term. uh the Trump organization which you once uh the Trump organization which you once uh the Trump organization which you once headed uh has headed uh has headed uh has profited enormously from licensing deals profited enormously from licensing deals profited enormously from licensing deals from real estate deals in Saudi Arabia from real estate deals in Saudi Arabia from real estate deals in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries. The and other Gulf countries. The and other Gulf countries. The organization run by Trump's two sons organization run by Trump's two sons organization run by Trump's two sons owned by Trump as I understand it. owned by Trump as I understand it. owned by Trump as I understand it. Correct. Correct. Correct. >> I don't know the legality. I think he >> I don't know the legality. I think he >> I don't know the legality. I think he put everything into a trust. So I don't put everything into a trust. So I don't put everything into a trust. So I don't know who owns it. know who owns it. know who owns it. >> It's not a blind trust. he sees what his >> It's not a blind trust. he sees what his >> It's not a blind trust. he sees what his sons are doing. Um, in any case, um, sons are doing. Um, in any case, um, sons are doing. Um, in any case, um, there is a lot of, uh, there is a lot of, uh, there is a lot of, uh, criticism of Trump for profiting, uh, criticism of Trump for profiting, uh, criticism of Trump for profiting, uh, off of his position as president. off of his position as president. off of his position as president. >> So, in the first term, they actually >> So, in the first term, they actually >> So, in the first term, they actually foresaw all international deals, and yet foresaw all international deals, and yet foresaw all international deals, and yet they rake them through the coals. I they rake them through the coals. I they rake them through the coals. I think this time, and I think Eric Trump think this time, and I think Eric Trump think this time, and I think Eric Trump was probably the one who said this, if was probably the one who said this, if was probably the one who said this, if we gave up billions of dollars and still we gave up billions of dollars and still we gave up billions of dollars and still got to rake through the coals, and it's got to rake through the coals, and it's got to rake through the coals, and it's legal for me to do this, why shouldn't I legal for me to do this, why shouldn't I legal for me to do this, why shouldn't I do it? Um, I think that's a reasonable do it? Um, I think that's a reasonable do it? Um, I think that's a reasonable position, right? If there's a law that position, right? If there's a law that position, right? If there's a law that they're breaking, then they should they're breaking, then they should they're breaking, then they should uphold the law and they should be uphold the law and they should be uphold the law and they should be punished if they break the law. But if punished if they break the law. But if punished if they break the law. But if they're not breaking the law, why should they're not breaking the law, why should they're not breaking the law, why should they be rewarded with making less money they be rewarded with making less money they be rewarded with making less money just because President Trump is the

just because President Trump is the just because President Trump is the president and there happened to be his president and there happened to be his president and there happened to be his sons? I mean, this was a hugely sons? I mean, this was a hugely sons? I mean, this was a hugely successful business for decades, right? successful business for decades, right? successful business for decades, right? I was there 20 years. Uh I started I was there 20 years. Uh I started I was there 20 years. Uh I started things were a little bit slower and he things were a little bit slower and he things were a little bit slower and he shot up like a rocket over 20 years. Why shot up like a rocket over 20 years. Why shot up like a rocket over 20 years. Why should they walk away from all that just should they walk away from all that just should they walk away from all that just because their father decided to serve because their father decided to serve because their father decided to serve the country? He walked away from a lot. the country? He walked away from a lot. the country? He walked away from a lot. And in the interim period between the And in the interim period between the And in the interim period between the first term and the second term, there first term and the second term, there first term and the second term, there were lawsuits that most of them I think were lawsuits that most of them I think were lawsuits that most of them I think got dismissed. There were judgments. got dismissed. There were judgments. got dismissed. There were judgments. Most of them got overturned. He could Most of them got overturned. He could Most of them got overturned. He could have had serious financial problems. have had serious financial problems. have had serious financial problems. Why? You know, he would argue and I Why? You know, he would argue and I Why? You know, he would argue and I don't think it's unfair to say that don't think it's unfair to say that don't think it's unfair to say that things were weaponized against him and things were weaponized against him and things were weaponized against him and uh they went after him because they uh they went after him because they uh they went after him because they hated him. In the end, seems that the hated him. In the end, seems that the hated him. In the end, seems that the law prevailed and most if not all the law prevailed and most if not all the law prevailed and most if not all the cases had to be pushed aside. So are we cases had to be pushed aside. So are we cases had to be pushed aside. So are we are we saying that forever anybody whose are we saying that forever anybody whose are we saying that forever anybody whose dad or mom or sister brother is a dad or mom or sister brother is a dad or mom or sister brother is a president they can't do business president they can't do business president they can't do business >> or Trump himself? >> or Trump himself? >> or Trump himself? >> Well so I'm not familiar with the law >> Well so I'm not familiar with the law >> Well so I'm not familiar with the law but if you're saying that because his but if you're saying that because his but if you're saying that because his sons who are running the company have sons who are running the company have sons who are running the company have done licensed deals or whatever deals done licensed deals or whatever deals done licensed deals or whatever deals they're doing in the region and they're doing in the region and they're doing in the region and therefore Trump indirectly benefits from therefore Trump indirectly benefits from therefore Trump indirectly benefits from that if he retains ownership of those that if he retains ownership of those that if he retains ownership of those trusts or companies. It gets back to the trusts or companies. It gets back to the trusts or companies. It gets back to the same answer which is is it allowed under same answer which is is it allowed under same answer which is is it allowed under the law then it's allowed.

the law then it's allowed. the law then it's allowed. >> Is it a legal question only? Isn't there >> Is it a legal question only? Isn't there >> Is it a legal question only? Isn't there a issue here of protocol and morality a issue here of protocol and morality a issue here of protocol and morality when it comes to um diplomacy? when it comes to um diplomacy? when it comes to um diplomacy? Should one be uh have uh skin in that Should one be uh have uh skin in that Should one be uh have uh skin in that game uh financially? game uh financially? game uh financially? >> Who's going to be the arbiter of that? >> Who's going to be the arbiter of that? >> Who's going to be the arbiter of that? Right? Is it going to be CNN or Fox? Is Right? Is it going to be CNN or Fox? Is Right? Is it going to be CNN or Fox? Is it going to be a Democrat who hates it going to be a Democrat who hates it going to be a Democrat who hates Trump or a Republican who loves Trump? Trump or a Republican who loves Trump? Trump or a Republican who loves Trump? The It's a slippery slope. The It's a slippery slope. The It's a slippery slope. >> There's an appearance of conflict of >> There's an appearance of conflict of >> There's an appearance of conflict of interest. interest. interest. >> And the appearance I could put 30 people >> And the appearance I could put 30 people >> And the appearance I could put 30 people in the room from this community or the in the room from this community or the in the room from this community or the next community or the one down the road, next community or the one down the road, next community or the one down the road, every community might have a different every community might have a different every community might have a different makeup and a certain percentage of the makeup and a certain percentage of the makeup and a certain percentage of the room is going to say nothing wrong with room is going to say nothing wrong with room is going to say nothing wrong with it. And a certain percentage of the it. And a certain percentage of the it. And a certain percentage of the groom room is going to say it's the groom room is going to say it's the groom room is going to say it's the worst thing in the world. That's why we worst thing in the world. That's why we worst thing in the world. That's why we have Congress. if they think it's the have Congress. if they think it's the have Congress. if they think it's the worst thing in the world and they should worst thing in the world and they should worst thing in the world and they should enact very clear laws that forbid it and enact very clear laws that forbid it and enact very clear laws that forbid it and that's that. But we can't sit here as that's that. But we can't sit here as that's that. But we can't sit here as citizens even if we don't like it and citizens even if we don't like it and citizens even if we don't like it and may maybe we think it doesn't smell may maybe we think it doesn't smell may maybe we think it doesn't smell right whatever the complaint is and right whatever the complaint is and right whatever the complaint is and decide therefore because I don't like it decide therefore because I don't like it decide therefore because I don't like it or I don't think it's moral he shouldn't or I don't think it's moral he shouldn't or I don't think it's moral he shouldn't do it. He has to be guided by the law do it. He has to be guided by the law do it. He has to be guided by the law just like everybody else. His kids have just like everybody else. His kids have just like everybody else. His kids have to be guided by the law just as as to be guided by the law just as as to be guided by the law just as as everybody else does. But I don't think everybody else does. But I don't think everybody else does. But I don't think they have to be guided by the pundits on they have to be guided by the pundits on they have to be guided by the pundits on pick your station who hate it.

pick your station who hate it. pick your station who hate it. >> But what do you think? Do you think that >> But what do you think? Do you think that >> But what do you think? Do you think that it it looks good? Do you think this it it looks good? Do you think this it it looks good? Do you think this smells right for there to be so much smells right for there to be so much smells right for there to be so much money uh being made? Uh while uh Trump money uh being made? Uh while uh Trump money uh being made? Uh while uh Trump and his son-in-law are negotiating and his son-in-law are negotiating and his son-in-law are negotiating uh I mean, let me put it this way. Jared uh I mean, let me put it this way. Jared uh I mean, let me put it this way. Jared Kushner is something making something Kushner is something making something Kushner is something making something like $80 million in fees for his like $80 million in fees for his like $80 million in fees for his affinity partners while he is affinity partners while he is affinity partners while he is negotiating negotiating negotiating uh on behalf of uh the president. uh on behalf of uh the president. uh on behalf of uh the president. >> Well, I can't begrudge him for the money >> Well, I can't begrudge him for the money >> Well, I can't begrudge him for the money he's making. He's making it, I guess, he's making. He's making it, I guess, he's making. He's making it, I guess, because he's doing a good job. But I'd because he's doing a good job. But I'd because he's doing a good job. But I'd rather have him on the team, even though rather have him on the team, even though rather have him on the team, even though he's making all that money, than not him he's making all that money, than not him he's making all that money, than not him have have have >> Fair enough. you'd rather have that. But >> Fair enough. you'd rather have that. But >> Fair enough. you'd rather have that. But but but but >> let me let me even say it a step further >> let me let me even say it a step further >> let me let me even say it a step further cuz I'm a guy who saw him in action. I'm cuz I'm a guy who saw him in action. I'm cuz I'm a guy who saw him in action. I'm a guy who understands maybe better than a guy who understands maybe better than a guy who understands maybe better than almost anybody else on the planet other almost anybody else on the planet other almost anybody else on the planet other than the people that are there today how than the people that are there today how than the people that are there today how effective a person he is to have on the effective a person he is to have on the effective a person he is to have on the team. So, if it's allowed and he's not team. So, if it's allowed and he's not team. So, if it's allowed and he's not forbidden for making money and I have to forbidden for making money and I have to forbidden for making money and I have to choose between having him on the team choose between having him on the team choose between having him on the team and saying no money, in which case he and saying no money, in which case he and saying no money, in which case he might say no thanks, or advancing US might say no thanks, or advancing US might say no thanks, or advancing US interests while he's making money, as interests while he's making money, as interests while he's making money, as long as he's not breaking the law, I'll long as he's not breaking the law, I'll long as he's not breaking the law, I'll take the latter take the latter take the latter every day of the week.

every day of the week. every day of the week. >> Jared Kushner has talked a lot about >> Jared Kushner has talked a lot about >> Jared Kushner has talked a lot about peace through prosperity. What does this peace through prosperity. What does this peace through prosperity. What does this mean? mean? mean? >> I think the theory is, and I'll speak >> I think the theory is, and I'll speak >> I think the theory is, and I'll speak for myself, I can't speak for Jared or for myself, I can't speak for Jared or for myself, I can't speak for Jared or the president. When people are the president. When people are the president. When people are comfortable and happy and living lives comfortable and happy and living lives comfortable and happy and living lives where they can pay their bills just like where they can pay their bills just like where they can pay their bills just like we hopefully could do here, they have we hopefully could do here, they have we hopefully could do here, they have safety, they have security, they can t safety, they have security, they can t safety, they have security, they can t send their kids to school, they don't send their kids to school, they don't send their kids to school, they don't have to worry about healthy water, have to worry about healthy water, have to worry about healthy water, healthy food, and all that. People are healthy food, and all that. People are healthy food, and all that. People are less likely to want to make trouble. less likely to want to make trouble. less likely to want to make trouble. When people are stuck in an endless When people are stuck in an endless When people are stuck in an endless grind of poverty and death and grind of poverty and death and grind of poverty and death and destruction and sewage, you name the destruction and sewage, you name the destruction and sewage, you name the issue, disease, right? people get angry. issue, disease, right? people get angry. issue, disease, right? people get angry. Um it doesn't solve the religious Um it doesn't solve the religious Um it doesn't solve the religious ideological issues by any stretch, but ideological issues by any stretch, but ideological issues by any stretch, but it does allow a host of people who get it does allow a host of people who get it does allow a host of people who get um recruited by the by the ideologues. um recruited by the by the ideologues. um recruited by the by the ideologues. Um who say, you know what, I'm happy, Um who say, you know what, I'm happy, Um who say, you know what, I'm happy, man. I have a great spouse and great man. I have a great spouse and great man. I have a great spouse and great kids and my kids are learning how to do kids and my kids are learning how to do kids and my kids are learning how to do AI. I don't believe in that. I might be AI. I don't believe in that. I might be AI. I don't believe in that. I might be a religious man, but I'm good. Leave me a religious man, but I'm good. Leave me a religious man, but I'm good. Leave me alone. So, I think that's the general alone. So, I think that's the general alone. So, I think that's the general thought. It doesn't solve everything, thought. It doesn't solve everything, thought. It doesn't solve everything, but it certainly helps take a lot of bad but it certainly helps take a lot of bad but it certainly helps take a lot of bad pieces off the table.

pieces off the table. pieces off the table. >> What does the Iran war do to the Abraham >> What does the Iran war do to the Abraham >> What does the Iran war do to the Abraham Accords? Accords? Accords? >> Well, if the president has his wish, it >> Well, if the president has his wish, it >> Well, if the president has his wish, it might actually expand the Abraham might actually expand the Abraham might actually expand the Abraham Accords. I mean, I think it's typical Accords. I mean, I think it's typical Accords. I mean, I think it's typical Trump to seize the moment and try to Trump to seize the moment and try to Trump to seize the moment and try to take advantage of the opportunity and take advantage of the opportunity and take advantage of the opportunity and make the demand mandatorily, I think was make the demand mandatorily, I think was make the demand mandatorily, I think was his word, for most of the countries to his word, for most of the countries to his word, for most of the countries to join. Um, join. Um, join. Um, I'm a skeptic. I don't know that that'll I'm a skeptic. I don't know that that'll I'm a skeptic. I don't know that that'll happen, but at the same time, I've seen happen, but at the same time, I've seen happen, but at the same time, I've seen him do amazing things that everybody him do amazing things that everybody him do amazing things that everybody thought he'd never do, including the thought he'd never do, including the thought he'd never do, including the original Abraham courts. original Abraham courts. original Abraham courts. >> The crown prince says there's no way >> The crown prince says there's no way >> The crown prince says there's no way that he's signing up for normalization that he's signing up for normalization that he's signing up for normalization of relations with Israel until there is of relations with Israel until there is of relations with Israel until there is a solution to the Palestinian a solution to the Palestinian a solution to the Palestinian um Israeli divide. um Israeli divide. um Israeli divide. >> I don't know if that was his answer to >> I don't know if that was his answer to >> I don't know if that was his answer to the president's recent demand about the the president's recent demand about the the president's recent demand about the Abraham Accords. Um, and I think the Abraham Accords. Um, and I think the Abraham Accords. Um, and I think the words he has said and the words that are words he has said and the words that are words he has said and the words that are coming directly out of the Saudi coming directly out of the Saudi coming directly out of the Saudi government are something that changes government are something that changes government are something that changes ever so slightly depending on who's ever so slightly depending on who's ever so slightly depending on who's saying it, but an irreversible path to saying it, but an irreversible path to saying it, but an irreversible path to Palestinian statethood, which is Palestinian statethood, which is Palestinian statethood, which is actually a bit of a tighter box than a actually a bit of a tighter box than a actually a bit of a tighter box than a solution to the Israeli Palestinian solution to the Israeli Palestinian solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, which is the language I conflict, which is the language I conflict, which is the language I actually prefer.

actually prefer. actually prefer. >> Fair enough. Well, it doesn't come all >> Fair enough. Well, it doesn't come all >> Fair enough. Well, it doesn't come all to um yeah, I mean there is this issue to um yeah, I mean there is this issue to um yeah, I mean there is this issue of um of um of um Trump may be making money in the Gulf or Trump may be making money in the Gulf or Trump may be making money in the Gulf or the Trump organization may be making a the Trump organization may be making a the Trump organization may be making a lot of money in the Gulf, but it but lot of money in the Gulf, but it but lot of money in the Gulf, but it but Saudi Arabia is investing in America and Saudi Arabia is investing in America and Saudi Arabia is investing in America and it benefits Americans. it benefits Americans. it benefits Americans. >> So what oh I mean when Saudi or any of >> So what oh I mean when Saudi or any of >> So what oh I mean when Saudi or any of these large countries, not just in the these large countries, not just in the these large countries, not just in the Gulf, even China, right? when they Gulf, even China, right? when they Gulf, even China, right? when they invest in America, what do they do? They invest in America, what do they do? They invest in America, what do they do? They create jobs. They buy our goods. Um, create jobs. They buy our goods. Um, create jobs. They buy our goods. Um, it's great for our economy. I only see it's great for our economy. I only see it's great for our economy. I only see us winning when it comes to things like us winning when it comes to things like us winning when it comes to things like that. that. that. >> How was it that you became suddenly an >> How was it that you became suddenly an >> How was it that you became suddenly an envoy to the Middle East when you prior envoy to the Middle East when you prior envoy to the Middle East when you prior to that you were running Trump? to that you were running Trump? to that you were running Trump? >> So, I was his lawyer. I I think people >> So, I was his lawyer. I I think people >> So, I was his lawyer. I I think people used to ask me, do any of my legal used to ask me, do any of my legal used to ask me, do any of my legal skills, did they really help in skills, did they really help in skills, did they really help in diplomacy? And I think it almost goes to diplomacy? And I think it almost goes to diplomacy? And I think it almost goes to something you just said, which is you something you just said, which is you something you just said, which is you have to be a really good listener to be have to be a really good listener to be have to be a really good listener to be a lawyer. a lawyer. a lawyer. Um, Um, Um, >> but you had no Middle East experience.

>> but you had no Middle East experience. >> but you had no Middle East experience. >> Same answer as Jared. No Middle East >> Same answer as Jared. No Middle East >> Same answer as Jared. No Middle East exper. If anything, I was exper. If anything, I was exper. If anything, I was >> deexperienced. Right. I had >> deexperienced. Right. I had >> deexperienced. Right. I had >> my pro-Israel, my negative Saudi. And I >> my pro-Israel, my negative Saudi. And I >> my pro-Israel, my negative Saudi. And I consider myself incredibly privileged to consider myself incredibly privileged to consider myself incredibly privileged to learn a whole new world that's