The Trump-Era Saudi-U.S. Relationship: An Insider's View

I want to talk about November 2016. I want to talk about November 2016. Uh Trump has won the election, surprise Uh Trump has won the election, surprise Uh Trump has won the election, surprise election, and a team is um sent from election, and a team is um sent from election, and a team is um sent from Saudi Arabia to meet with Jared Kushner. Saudi Arabia to meet with Jared Kushner. Saudi Arabia to meet with Jared Kushner. Do you know about this? Do you know about this? Do you know about this? I through common friends in New York and I through common friends in New York and I through common friends in New York and DC, I learned of uh a team led by senior DC, I learned of uh a team led by senior DC, I learned of uh a team led by senior Saudi officials who are close to then Saudi officials who are close to then Saudi officials who are close to then deputy crown prince uh you know MBS that deputy crown prince uh you know MBS that deputy crown prince uh you know MBS that traveled to New York to meet uh the traveled to New York to meet uh the traveled to New York to meet uh the Trump uh incoming administration in Trump uh incoming administration in Trump uh incoming administration in transition. Um and it was an early transition. Um and it was an early transition. Um and it was an early attempt uh by the um the current crown attempt uh by the um the current crown attempt uh by the um the current crown prince to kind of court the Trump prince to kind of court the Trump prince to kind of court the Trump administration cuz historically administration cuz historically administration cuz historically um um um US administration had more experience US administration had more experience US administration had more experience with other royals within the Saudi uh with other royals within the Saudi uh with other royals within the Saudi uh political sphere and uh NBS was a new political sphere and uh NBS was a new political sphere and uh NBS was a new coming emerging prince. coming emerging prince. coming emerging prince. >> They had more experience with people >> They had more experience with people >> They had more experience with people like your father. like your father. like your father. >> Uh you can say that. >> Uh you can say that. >> Uh you can say that. >> Yeah. And certainly with your father's >> Yeah. And certainly with your father's >> Yeah. And certainly with your father's boss MBN. boss MBN. boss MBN. >> Yes. The former crown prince Muhammad >> Yes. The former crown prince Muhammad >> Yes. The former crown prince Muhammad bin Naif historically post 911 he was bin Naif historically post 911 he was bin Naif historically post 911 he was the main interlocator the main interlocator the main interlocator >> uh between Saudi Arabia and United >> uh between Saudi Arabia and United >> uh between Saudi Arabia and United States and other five eyes country. You States and other five eyes country. You States and other five eyes country. You can probably argue that uh he salvaged can probably argue that uh he salvaged can probably argue that uh he salvaged the relationship when the cornerstone of the relationship when the cornerstone of the relationship when the cornerstone of the bilateral relationship was the the bilateral relationship was the the bilateral relationship was the security um aspect. So they put together security um aspect. So they put together security um aspect. So they put together a report after meeting with Kushner and a report after meeting with Kushner and a report after meeting with Kushner and send it back to NBS send it back to NBS send it back to NBS and this is eventually this report

and this is eventually this report and this is eventually this report apparently gets leaked to a newspaper in apparently gets leaked to a newspaper in apparently gets leaked to a newspaper in Lebanon. Lebanon. Lebanon. Are you aware of this? I'm not aware of Are you aware of this? I'm not aware of Are you aware of this? I'm not aware of that specific report, but uh I'm aware that specific report, but uh I'm aware that specific report, but uh I'm aware of you know some um I wouldn't say uh of you know some um I wouldn't say uh of you know some um I wouldn't say uh analysis or conclusions but on the analysis or conclusions but on the analysis or conclusions but on the aftermath of of those meetings uh one of aftermath of of those meetings uh one of aftermath of of those meetings uh one of my friends who is who was in New York uh my friends who is who was in New York uh my friends who is who was in New York uh at that point um working for the at that point um working for the at that point um working for the permanent mission of Saudi Arabia at the permanent mission of Saudi Arabia at the permanent mission of Saudi Arabia at the UN came down to Boston where I was and UN came down to Boston where I was and UN came down to Boston where I was and you know we had lunch And one of the you know we had lunch And one of the you know we had lunch And one of the things he said, "Oh, uh, by the way," things he said, "Oh, uh, by the way," things he said, "Oh, uh, by the way," cuz, you know, he knew my dad's cuz, you know, he knew my dad's cuz, you know, he knew my dad's affiliation with the former crown prince affiliation with the former crown prince affiliation with the former crown prince and so on, he said, "Uh, and so on, he said, "Uh, and so on, he said, "Uh, Trump is going to visit Saudi Arabia as Trump is going to visit Saudi Arabia as Trump is going to visit Saudi Arabia as his first foreign trip um on uh May 21st his first foreign trip um on uh May 21st his first foreign trip um on uh May 21st and a month later, uh, they're going to and a month later, uh, they're going to and a month later, uh, they're going to change the crown prince." And I thought change the crown prince." And I thought change the crown prince." And I thought it couldn't be this easy and blatant and it couldn't be this easy and blatant and it couldn't be this easy and blatant and straightforward because there are straightforward because there are straightforward because there are internal you know uh procedures in Saudi internal you know uh procedures in Saudi internal you know uh procedures in Saudi and the whole allegiance and you know and the whole allegiance and you know and the whole allegiance and you know council and pledging allegiance and you council and pledging allegiance and you council and pledging allegiance and you know things we thought were going to be know things we thought were going to be know things we thought were going to be constrained. Um and you know I reported constrained. Um and you know I reported constrained. Um and you know I reported that back I think people that back I think people that back I think people >> you reported that back to whom?

>> you reported that back to whom? >> you reported that back to whom? >> To my father uh who reported it to the >> To my father uh who reported it to the >> To my father uh who reported it to the to the then crown prince. I don't think to the then crown prince. I don't think to the then crown prince. I don't think it was taken seriously, but it was taken seriously, but it was taken seriously, but May 21st was the trip and June 21st was May 21st was the trip and June 21st was May 21st was the trip and June 21st was success and change. So it was an success and change. So it was an success and change. So it was an accurate tip and I received that accurate tip and I received that accurate tip and I received that mid-March 2017. mid-March 2017. mid-March 2017. >> Your friend and in the you said >> Your friend and in the you said >> Your friend and in the you said permanent mission permanent mission permanent mission >> of the Saudis. >> of the Saudis. >> of the Saudis. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Said to you anything about the content >> Said to you anything about the content >> Said to you anything about the content of of their report as they went back to of of their report as they went back to of of their report as they went back to Saudi Arabia to talk to NBS? I wasn't I Saudi Arabia to talk to NBS? I wasn't I Saudi Arabia to talk to NBS? I wasn't I wasn't aware of even such a report wasn't aware of even such a report wasn't aware of even such a report existed. I you know um I was aware that existed. I you know um I was aware that existed. I you know um I was aware that there were multiple components or three there were multiple components or three there were multiple components or three pillars that they were discussing and pillars that they were discussing and pillars that they were discussing and and one of them included um investments and one of them included um investments and one of them included um investments uh uh arms deals uh modernization in uh uh arms deals uh modernization in uh uh arms deals uh modernization in Saudi and then ultimately normalizing Saudi and then ultimately normalizing Saudi and then ultimately normalizing with Israel. So these were enticements with Israel. So these were enticements with Israel. So these were enticements that the Kushner and Trump were perhaps that the Kushner and Trump were perhaps that the Kushner and Trump were perhaps putting out there and saying you need to putting out there and saying you need to putting out there and saying you need to do these things for us.

do these things for us. do these things for us. >> I think I would say that these were the >> I think I would say that these were the >> I think I would say that these were the pillars of what a an NBS Trump uh pillars of what a an NBS Trump uh pillars of what a an NBS Trump uh relationship would look like. relationship would look like. relationship would look like. >> Uhhuh. And why do you think it was >> Uhhuh. And why do you think it was >> Uhhuh. And why do you think it was important uh for NBS to reach out to important uh for NBS to reach out to important uh for NBS to reach out to Trump at that point? uh historically and Trump at that point? uh historically and Trump at that point? uh historically and this is not just limited to Saudi Arabia this is not just limited to Saudi Arabia this is not just limited to Saudi Arabia but uh endorsement uh of the US uh as a but uh endorsement uh of the US uh as a but uh endorsement uh of the US uh as a superpower uh especially given its superpower uh especially given its superpower uh especially given its presence and relationship across the presence and relationship across the presence and relationship across the Middle East is seen as an endorsement uh Middle East is seen as an endorsement uh Middle East is seen as an endorsement uh and uh not just an endorsement but also and uh not just an endorsement but also and uh not just an endorsement but also almost uh a legitimization of any almost uh a legitimization of any almost uh a legitimization of any leadership. If you are seen as the go-to leadership. If you are seen as the go-to leadership. If you are seen as the go-to person by great powers, then you are the person by great powers, then you are the person by great powers, then you are the powerful uh person that should rule or powerful uh person that should rule or powerful uh person that should rule or control Saudi Arabia. control Saudi Arabia. control Saudi Arabia. >> Sure. But it is rather um extraordinary >> Sure. But it is rather um extraordinary >> Sure. But it is rather um extraordinary uh that they would be able to come and uh that they would be able to come and uh that they would be able to come and make a deal whereby Trump's first make a deal whereby Trump's first make a deal whereby Trump's first foreign trip would be to Saudi Arabia. foreign trip would be to Saudi Arabia. foreign trip would be to Saudi Arabia. That's not what most presidents do. It That's not what most presidents do. It That's not what most presidents do. It was quite unorthodox to say the least, was quite unorthodox to say the least, was quite unorthodox to say the least, but I can see the pitch going look uh we but I can see the pitch going look uh we but I can see the pitch going look uh we are Saudi Arabia. We're the leaders of are Saudi Arabia. We're the leaders of are Saudi Arabia. We're the leaders of the Muslim and Arab world and and this the Muslim and Arab world and and this the Muslim and Arab world and and this is a fact, you know, given the size, is a fact, you know, given the size, is a fact, you know, given the size, given, you know, housing the the two given, you know, housing the the two given, you know, housing the the two holy mo mosques. Um, I think they spoke holy mo mosques. Um, I think they spoke holy mo mosques. Um, I think they spoke to what appealed to to President Trump, to what appealed to to President Trump, to what appealed to to President Trump, you know, in terms of deals, in terms of you know, in terms of deals, in terms of you know, in terms of deals, in terms of normalizing with Israel, in terms of normalizing with Israel, in terms of normalizing with Israel, in terms of using Saudi Arabia as a platform to using Saudi Arabia as a platform to using Saudi Arabia as a platform to speak to the larger Arab and Muslim

speak to the larger Arab and Muslim speak to the larger Arab and Muslim world. And that must have resonated with world. And that must have resonated with world. And that must have resonated with him. him. him. >> And from that point on, Kushner and MBS >> And from that point on, Kushner and MBS >> And from that point on, Kushner and MBS or even from before were forming a a or even from before were forming a a or even from before were forming a a friendship. Can you characterize that um friendship. Can you characterize that um friendship. Can you characterize that um those bonds? those bonds? those bonds? >> A friendship with whom? with NBS Kushner >> A friendship with whom? with NBS Kushner >> A friendship with whom? with NBS Kushner and NBS and NBS and NBS >> actually when what I was told when the >> actually when what I was told when the >> actually when what I was told when the delegation met for the first time um and delegation met for the first time um and delegation met for the first time um and I'm told in that meeting Steve Bannon I'm told in that meeting Steve Bannon I'm told in that meeting Steve Bannon was there and then um uh was there and then um uh was there and then um uh uh Flynn the first national security uh Flynn the first national security uh Flynn the first national security adviser to be at that point adviser to be at that point adviser to be at that point >> uh were in the meeting they were very >> uh were in the meeting they were very >> uh were in the meeting they were very skeptical of the Saudi delegation and skeptical of the Saudi delegation and skeptical of the Saudi delegation and and they were mostly in listening mo and they were mostly in listening mo and they were mostly in listening mo mode in terms of like hey what are you mode in terms of like hey what are you mode in terms of like hey what are you guys offering us why should we trust you guys offering us why should we trust you guys offering us why should we trust you why should we listen to you Um why should we listen to you Um why should we listen to you Um ultimately you know there were multiple ultimately you know there were multiple ultimately you know there were multiple meetings um and meetings um and meetings um and NBS and Jared Kushner developed a NBS and Jared Kushner developed a NBS and Jared Kushner developed a personal relationship personal relationship personal relationship um that is visible uh through the kind um that is visible uh through the kind um that is visible uh through the kind of multiple trips that Kushner take took of multiple trips that Kushner take took of multiple trips that Kushner take took to Saudi Arabia. I mean he speaks to Saudi Arabia. I mean he speaks to Saudi Arabia. I mean he speaks frankly about that in in a lot of frankly about that in in a lot of frankly about that in in a lot of interviews and a lot of uh you know interviews and a lot of uh you know interviews and a lot of uh you know podcasts so it's not a secret. So well podcasts so it's not a secret. So well podcasts so it's not a secret. So well um this trip takes place. Trump seems um this trip takes place. Trump seems um this trip takes place. Trump seems quite um quite um quite um well treated well treated well treated u red carpet sword dance.

u red carpet sword dance. u red carpet sword dance. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The whole nine yards. >> The whole nine yards. >> The whole nine yards. >> Um >> Um >> Um how did you see the Saudi uh US how did you see the Saudi uh US how did you see the Saudi uh US relationship taking shape at this point? relationship taking shape at this point? relationship taking shape at this point? I mean you you're obviously concerned. I mean you you're obviously concerned. I mean you you're obviously concerned. Your dad is concerned. Um, your dad um Your dad is concerned. Um, your dad um Your dad is concerned. Um, your dad um leaves the country when? leaves the country when? leaves the country when? >> That was uh May 2017 uh just about a few >> That was uh May 2017 uh just about a few >> That was uh May 2017 uh just about a few days before the Trump visit. days before the Trump visit. days before the Trump visit. >> So he he leaves just before that visit. >> So he he leaves just before that visit. >> So he he leaves just before that visit. So he can he can sort of u sense what's So he can he can sort of u sense what's So he can he can sort of u sense what's going on. going on. going on. there was uh obviously it was climactic there was uh obviously it was climactic there was uh obviously it was climactic um and uh there were tensions that um and uh there were tensions that um and uh there were tensions that preceded that you know not even before preceded that you know not even before preceded that you know not even before Trump was elected so in terms of the Trump was elected so in terms of the Trump was elected so in terms of the jockeying between uh Muhammad bin Salman jockeying between uh Muhammad bin Salman jockeying between uh Muhammad bin Salman in BS and the former crown prince in BS and the former crown prince in BS and the former crown prince Muhammad bin Naif and unfortunately uh Muhammad bin Naif and unfortunately uh Muhammad bin Naif and unfortunately uh that's where my dad and my family got that's where my dad and my family got that's where my dad and my family got kind of tangled in the middle um so it kind of tangled in the middle um so it kind of tangled in the middle um so it was climactic until that point uh was climactic until that point uh was climactic until that point uh interestingly a week before the visit um interestingly a week before the visit um interestingly a week before the visit um there was a uh a political article uh there was a uh a political article uh there was a uh a political article uh about that was I think the uh the the about that was I think the uh the the about that was I think the uh the the title was very sensitizing like title was very sensitizing like title was very sensitizing like President Trump joins the Saudi Game of President Trump joins the Saudi Game of President Trump joins the Saudi Game of Thrones. Um and it was about a lobbying Thrones. Um and it was about a lobbying Thrones. Um and it was about a lobbying contract that the former crown prince contract that the former crown prince contract that the former crown prince signed uh with uh somebody who's close signed uh with uh somebody who's close signed uh with uh somebody who's close to President Trump in order to actually to President Trump in order to actually to President Trump in order to actually showcase the role and the importance of showcase the role and the importance of showcase the role and the importance of Saudi Arabia as a security partner. um Saudi Arabia as a security partner. um Saudi Arabia as a security partner. um that was misperceived uh by the current

that was misperceived uh by the current that was misperceived uh by the current crown prince as some kind of uh uh last crown prince as some kind of uh uh last crown prince as some kind of uh uh last hour sabotage attempt and and hour sabotage attempt and and hour sabotage attempt and and >> like usurping his his >> like usurping his his >> like usurping his his >> Yes. You know, and basically uh um I >> Yes. You know, and basically uh um I >> Yes. You know, and basically uh um I think he blamed my father for it and and think he blamed my father for it and and think he blamed my father for it and and my father was tipped to leave the my father was tipped to leave the my father was tipped to leave the country at that point. country at that point. country at that point. >> And you were in the States already. >> And you were in the States already. >> And you were in the States already. >> Yes, I was in Boston. >> Yes, I was in Boston. >> Yes, I was in Boston. >> You were in Boston going to school. I >> You were in Boston going to school. I >> You were in Boston going to school. I was uh I had just finished my clinical was uh I had just finished my clinical was uh I had just finished my clinical fellowships and about to start my uh my fellowships and about to start my uh my fellowships and about to start my uh my graduate business degree. graduate business degree. graduate business degree. >> Right. And what did your father tell you >> Right. And what did your father tell you >> Right. And what did your father tell you was going on? was going on? was going on? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh he was you know like we obviously from he was you know like we obviously from he was you know like we obviously from afar we speak cryptically and and you afar we speak cryptically and and you afar we speak cryptically and and you know we minimize our conversations. Uh know we minimize our conversations. Uh know we minimize our conversations. Uh but it was clear to me that something but it was clear to me that something but it was clear to me that something wasn't uh you know wasn't adding up and wasn't uh you know wasn't adding up and wasn't uh you know wasn't adding up and that the tensions between the current that the tensions between the current that the tensions between the current and the former crown prince were at and the former crown prince were at and the former crown prince were at boiling level. Um and both my dad was boiling level. Um and both my dad was boiling level. Um and both my dad was actually kind of warned and advised to actually kind of warned and advised to actually kind of warned and advised to leave the kingdom.

leave the kingdom. leave the kingdom. >> Do your best to characterize MBS, his >> Do your best to characterize MBS, his >> Do your best to characterize MBS, his personality, his character. personality, his character. personality, his character. So, as a backdrop, uh MBS and myself are So, as a backdrop, uh MBS and myself are So, as a backdrop, uh MBS and myself are are the same age. Uh I think I'm a few are the same age. Uh I think I'm a few are the same age. Uh I think I'm a few months older than him. We graduated the months older than him. We graduated the months older than him. We graduated the same uh class from King Saw University. same uh class from King Saw University. same uh class from King Saw University. That was 2007. Uh he was in law school. That was 2007. Uh he was in law school. That was 2007. Uh he was in law school. I was in medical school. Um he read the I was in medical school. Um he read the I was in medical school. Um he read the graduation speech. Uh his dad was the graduation speech. Uh his dad was the graduation speech. Uh his dad was the chapron uh of that graduation ceremony. chapron uh of that graduation ceremony. chapron uh of that graduation ceremony. He handed me my honors degree. Uh He handed me my honors degree. Uh He handed me my honors degree. Uh >> King Salman did. >> King Salman did. >> King Salman did. >> Yes. uh then Prince Salman, Governor of >> Yes. uh then Prince Salman, Governor of >> Yes. uh then Prince Salman, Governor of Riyad. And so growing up in the same Riyad. And so growing up in the same Riyad. And so growing up in the same generation like you know people knew of generation like you know people knew of generation like you know people knew of each other. I didn't know him directly each other. I didn't know him directly each other. I didn't know him directly but we had a lot of common friends and but we had a lot of common friends and but we had a lot of common friends and you know he was notorious you know he was notorious you know he was notorious um for his adventurism um uh he clearly um for his adventurism um uh he clearly um for his adventurism um uh he clearly had uh animosity towards his cousins um had uh animosity towards his cousins um had uh animosity towards his cousins um mainly uh because you know and this is mainly uh because you know and this is mainly uh because you know and this is something I don't approve of at all but something I don't approve of at all but something I don't approve of at all but like within the royal family there is an like within the royal family there is an like within the royal family there is an internal hierarchy depending on who your internal hierarchy depending on who your internal hierarchy depending on who your mom is and who your dad is uh depending mom is and who your dad is uh depending mom is and who your dad is uh depending on your wealth depending on your access.

on your wealth depending on your access. on your wealth depending on your access. Uh and uh up until his dad became a Uh and uh up until his dad became a Uh and uh up until his dad became a crown prince in 2012, he was a fringe uh crown prince in 2012, he was a fringe uh crown prince in 2012, he was a fringe uh royal. royal. royal. >> Say more about his adventurism >> Say more about his adventurism >> Say more about his adventurism >> there. Um he was hungry for power. Um >> there. Um he was hungry for power. Um >> there. Um he was hungry for power. Um and initially when the power that he and initially when the power that he and initially when the power that he held was only limited to his household, held was only limited to his household, held was only limited to his household, you can hear a lot of stories about how you can hear a lot of stories about how you can hear a lot of stories about how he would you know mistreat domestic he would you know mistreat domestic he would you know mistreat domestic workers or even his dad's guests. Uh and workers or even his dad's guests. Uh and workers or even his dad's guests. Uh and then ultimately when he graduated or then ultimately when he graduated or then ultimately when he graduated or during high school uh his power during high school uh his power during high school uh his power basically uh was again limited to Riad basically uh was again limited to Riad basically uh was again limited to Riad where his dad was the governor. So he where his dad was the governor. So he where his dad was the governor. So he would, you know, uh stop streets and and would, you know, uh stop streets and and would, you know, uh stop streets and and and basically like and basically like and basically like uh imitate what a police officer would uh imitate what a police officer would uh imitate what a police officer would do. Um when he graduated do. Um when he graduated do. Um when he graduated um college and and became an adviser to um college and and became an adviser to um college and and became an adviser to his dad at the level of the governor, um his dad at the level of the governor, um his dad at the level of the governor, um he's tried to make a lot of deals in he's tried to make a lot of deals in he's tried to make a lot of deals in terms of actually acquiring some lands terms of actually acquiring some lands terms of actually acquiring some lands that were uh purposed for public use. Uh that were uh purposed for public use. Uh that were uh purposed for public use. Uh >> he made a lot of money doing that. Uh he >> he made a lot of money doing that. Uh he >> he made a lot of money doing that. Uh he did I think he did I think he did I think he and to be fair he was indifferent than a and to be fair he was indifferent than a and to be fair he was indifferent than a lot of other royals. Uh lot of other royals. Uh lot of other royals. Uh and you know when he started doing that and you know when he started doing that and you know when he started doing that uh he was applauded by his father. I'm uh he was applauded by his father. I'm uh he was applauded by his father. I'm told that he was like oh how come your told that he was like oh how come your told that he was like oh how come your elder brothers never taught me to do elder brothers never taught me to do elder brothers never taught me to do this? Uh and he was referencing his half

this? Uh and he was referencing his half this? Uh and he was referencing his half brothers who one was an astronaut and brothers who one was an astronaut and brothers who one was an astronaut and the other one has a PhD from Oxford. So the other one has a PhD from Oxford. So the other one has a PhD from Oxford. So clearly um he became his dad's favorite clearly um he became his dad's favorite clearly um he became his dad's favorite during that time frame not because of during that time frame not because of during that time frame not because of what he was able to do for his father uh what he was able to do for his father uh what he was able to do for his father uh and show him how to assert himself as uh and show him how to assert himself as uh and show him how to assert himself as uh a son of the founding king um but also a son of the founding king um but also a son of the founding king um but also uh at that point his dad had lost um two uh at that point his dad had lost um two uh at that point his dad had lost um two of his elder children who were very of his elder children who were very of his elder children who were very close to him. So there was an emotional close to him. So there was an emotional close to him. So there was an emotional gap that both Muhammad Misman and his gap that both Muhammad Misman and his gap that both Muhammad Misman and his mother uh very uh mother uh very uh mother uh very uh cleverly exploited at the time that the cleverly exploited at the time that the cleverly exploited at the time that the Trump um Trump um Trump um entourage that Donald Trump decides to entourage that Donald Trump decides to entourage that Donald Trump decides to go to Saudi Arabia on this state visit go to Saudi Arabia on this state visit go to Saudi Arabia on this state visit receive this rather warm welcome. Uh receive this rather warm welcome. Uh receive this rather warm welcome. Uh what is the situation in Saudi? And what what is the situation in Saudi? And what what is the situation in Saudi? And what I'm referring to is there were a lot of I'm referring to is there were a lot of I'm referring to is there were a lot of problems that he was facing in Yemen, in problems that he was facing in Yemen, in problems that he was facing in Yemen, in the eastern province with women. Just the eastern province with women. Just the eastern province with women. Just paint me a picture of what was going on.

paint me a picture of what was going on. paint me a picture of what was going on. >> I mean like >> I mean like >> I mean like >> there were a lot of problems that he >> there were a lot of problems that he >> there were a lot of problems that he inherited and there was a pro a lot of inherited and there was a pro a lot of inherited and there was a pro a lot of problems that he self-created. So problems that he self-created. So problems that he self-created. So um you know uh Saudi Arabia in 2014 like um you know uh Saudi Arabia in 2014 like um you know uh Saudi Arabia in 2014 like look and again this is because I come look and again this is because I come look and again this is because I come from the generation that was you know in from the generation that was you know in from the generation that was you know in their 30s at that point. We were their 30s at that point. We were their 30s at that point. We were frustrated with the slow pace of reform. frustrated with the slow pace of reform. frustrated with the slow pace of reform. We knew what Saudi Arabia was capable of We knew what Saudi Arabia was capable of We knew what Saudi Arabia was capable of for us. We were the sleeping giants. We for us. We were the sleeping giants. We for us. We were the sleeping giants. We saw neighboring countries with less saw neighboring countries with less saw neighboring countries with less resources overtake us. And I don't think resources overtake us. And I don't think resources overtake us. And I don't think that was a result of nefarious, you that was a result of nefarious, you that was a result of nefarious, you know, actions within the government, but know, actions within the government, but know, actions within the government, but mostly because we had, you know, ailing mostly because we had, you know, ailing mostly because we had, you know, ailing leadership that are were completely out leadership that are were completely out leadership that are were completely out of touch with the streets. Uh King of touch with the streets. Uh King of touch with the streets. Uh King Abdullah, uh, and he did so many great Abdullah, uh, and he did so many great Abdullah, uh, and he did so many great things. King Abdullah, I may rest in things. King Abdullah, I may rest in things. King Abdullah, I may rest in peace. uh you know was ailing uh and and peace. uh you know was ailing uh and and peace. uh you know was ailing uh and and it was just like extremely frustrating. it was just like extremely frustrating. it was just like extremely frustrating. So on every aspect there was this kind So on every aspect there was this kind So on every aspect there was this kind of I would say regression you know uh in of I would say regression you know uh in of I would say regression you know uh in Saudi Arabia uh and inability to keep up Saudi Arabia uh and inability to keep up Saudi Arabia uh and inability to keep up with with the kind of booming with with the kind of booming with with the kind of booming surrounding nations like UAE and Qatar.

surrounding nations like UAE and Qatar. surrounding nations like UAE and Qatar. Um so whether it's unemployment or you Um so whether it's unemployment or you Um so whether it's unemployment or you know uh you know women's women not being know uh you know women's women not being know uh you know women's women not being able to drive or join the workforce uh able to drive or join the workforce uh able to drive or join the workforce uh uh an inflated public sector wage bill uh an inflated public sector wage bill uh an inflated public sector wage bill uh like the housing issues the these are uh like the housing issues the these are uh like the housing issues the these are problems that you know predate NBS uh problems that you know predate NBS uh problems that you know predate NBS uh and they were an accumulation of errors and they were an accumulation of errors and they were an accumulation of errors or lack of fixing uh but there were also or lack of fixing uh but there were also or lack of fixing uh but there were also things um at least you know um and things um at least you know um and things um at least you know um and mainly you mentioned that the war in mainly you mentioned that the war in mainly you mentioned that the war in Yemen that was his own kind of uh Yemen that was his own kind of uh Yemen that was his own kind of uh engineering and he was the the the engineering and he was the the the engineering and he was the the the architect behind it. architect behind it. architect behind it. >> So the country that Donald Trump was >> So the country that Donald Trump was >> So the country that Donald Trump was coming to visit was coming to visit was coming to visit was uh as you would I guess describe it as uh as you would I guess describe it as uh as you would I guess describe it as full of potential but oified full of potential but oified full of potential but oified >> I would say so uh and I think look every >> I would say so uh and I think look every >> I would say so uh and I think look every leader in Saudi Arabia acknowledge the leader in Saudi Arabia acknowledge the leader in Saudi Arabia acknowledge the need to diversify away from oil. there need to diversify away from oil. there need to diversify away from oil. there is, you know, at some point, you know, is, you know, at some point, you know, is, you know, at some point, you know, we started joking about it because like we started joking about it because like we started joking about it because like every every 5 years there'll be a 5-year every every 5 years there'll be a 5-year every every 5 years there'll be a 5-year plan and the first line will be plan and the first line will be plan and the first line will be diversification away from oil, but you diversification away from oil, but you diversification away from oil, but you know, it's a natural resource curse like know, it's a natural resource curse like know, it's a natural resource curse like you know, it's easy money and you get you know, it's easy money and you get you know, it's easy money and you get addicted to it and basically there's no addicted to it and basically there's no addicted to it and basically there's no incentive to look somewhere else. And I incentive to look somewhere else. And I incentive to look somewhere else. And I think NBS early on, I think it was April think NBS early on, I think it was April think NBS early on, I think it was April 2016 when he came out with his, you 2016 when he came out with his, you 2016 when he came out with his, you know, uh, the blueprint for like vision know, uh, the blueprint for like vision know, uh, the blueprint for like vision 2030 and and Saudi transformation, 2030 and and Saudi transformation, 2030 and and Saudi transformation, rightly acknowledged that the the secret rightly acknowledged that the the secret rightly acknowledged that the the secret sauce of Saudi stability in the past, sauce of Saudi stability in the past, sauce of Saudi stability in the past, which was, you know, welfare for loyalty which was, you know, welfare for loyalty which was, you know, welfare for loyalty state um, and ultra-conservatism

state um, and ultra-conservatism state um, and ultra-conservatism was not going to cut it anymore. Uh, it was not going to cut it anymore. Uh, it was not going to cut it anymore. Uh, it might have worked when you had 3 million might have worked when you had 3 million might have worked when you had 3 million population, not 30. population, not 30. population, not 30. it worked when oil prices were always it worked when oil prices were always it worked when oil prices were always there to kind of uh cover your problems there to kind of uh cover your problems there to kind of uh cover your problems like whatever is the issue just throw like whatever is the issue just throw like whatever is the issue just throw money at it and it it will go away. Um money at it and it it will go away. Um money at it and it it will go away. Um and he realized that he was you know the and he realized that he was you know the and he realized that he was you know the kingdom was running on borrowed time and kingdom was running on borrowed time and kingdom was running on borrowed time and that there had to be genuine attempt at that there had to be genuine attempt at that there had to be genuine attempt at diversifying the economy. Now you can't diversifying the economy. Now you can't diversifying the economy. Now you can't do it if you diversify the economy you do it if you diversify the economy you do it if you diversify the economy you can't do it with an ultra-conservative can't do it with an ultra-conservative can't do it with an ultra-conservative state. So he had to decouple state. So he had to decouple state. So he had to decouple uh the economy and and and and and uh the economy and and and and and uh the economy and and and and and the country in a sense from being ultra the country in a sense from being ultra the country in a sense from being ultra religious and conservative. Um and that religious and conservative. Um and that religious and conservative. Um and that was the kind of pivotal moment in Saudi was the kind of pivotal moment in Saudi was the kind of pivotal moment in Saudi Arabia. It coincided almost a few months Arabia. It coincided almost a few months Arabia. It coincided almost a few months later with the election of Donald Trump. later with the election of Donald Trump. later with the election of Donald Trump. >> Yeah. I mean it seems quite progressive. >> Yeah. I mean it seems quite progressive. >> Yeah. I mean it seems quite progressive. It seems quite aware quite um it was the It seems quite aware quite um it was the It seems quite aware quite um it was the right thing to do. right thing to do. right thing to do. >> Absolutely 100%. Now it's a different >> Absolutely 100%. Now it's a different >> Absolutely 100%. Now it's a different story when rubber hit the road, but like story when rubber hit the road, but like story when rubber hit the road, but like on on paper it was the right thing to on on paper it was the right thing to on on paper it was the right thing to do.

do. do. >> Where does it go wrong? >> Where does it go wrong? >> Where does it go wrong? >> I think implementation uh I think look >> I think implementation uh I think look >> I think implementation uh I think look and there were a lot of great things um and there were a lot of great things um and there were a lot of great things um that went [clears throat] right and that went [clears throat] right and that went [clears throat] right and there was a lot of things that went there was a lot of things that went there was a lot of things that went wrong. There were a lot of lowhanging wrong. There were a lot of lowhanging wrong. There were a lot of lowhanging fruits for example allowing them to fruits for example allowing them to fruits for example allowing them to drive and and it's not just like their drive and and it's not just like their drive and and it's not just like their right to drive. It's actually empowering right to drive. It's actually empowering right to drive. It's actually empowering uh a large portion of the society to uh a large portion of the society to uh a large portion of the society to join the workforce that otherwise was join the workforce that otherwise was join the workforce that otherwise was basically crippled by inability to get basically crippled by inability to get basically crippled by inability to get to their place of work. to their place of work. to their place of work. >> Half of the workforce >> Half of the workforce >> Half of the workforce >> absolutely 100%. And uh um uh you know >> absolutely 100%. And uh um uh you know >> absolutely 100%. And uh um uh you know uh some of this elective social uh some of this elective social uh some of this elective social liberalization as well. uh these were liberalization as well. uh these were liberalization as well. uh these were lowhanging fruits not in terms of lowhanging fruits not in terms of lowhanging fruits not in terms of actually driving economic you know uh actually driving economic you know uh actually driving economic you know uh output but also uh within a society that output but also uh within a society that output but also uh within a society that 70% was was youth. I'm trying to 70% was was youth. I'm trying to 70% was was youth. I'm trying to understand that when Donald Trump uh understand that when Donald Trump uh understand that when Donald Trump uh becomes the president and goes to Saudi becomes the president and goes to Saudi becomes the president and goes to Saudi Arabia and vision 2030 has been Arabia and vision 2030 has been Arabia and vision 2030 has been announced, how does that stoke uh the announced, how does that stoke uh the announced, how does that stoke uh the situation in in Saudi Arabia?

situation in in Saudi Arabia? situation in in Saudi Arabia? Uh again when you are embarking on a Uh again when you are embarking on a Uh again when you are embarking on a pivotal moment in your history that you pivotal moment in your history that you pivotal moment in your history that you know that basically includes you know know that basically includes you know know that basically includes you know diversification of the economy and and diversification of the economy and and diversification of the economy and and genuine attempts at that and even some genuine attempts at that and even some genuine attempts at that and even some of the risky social changes of the risky social changes of the risky social changes getting the involvement and even just getting the involvement and even just getting the involvement and even just the visible endorsement of the United the visible endorsement of the United the visible endorsement of the United States uh is actually a good thing. Um States uh is actually a good thing. Um States uh is actually a good thing. Um because uh most of you know if you look because uh most of you know if you look because uh most of you know if you look back throughout history in Saudi Arabia back throughout history in Saudi Arabia back throughout history in Saudi Arabia like the association with with the like the association with with the like the association with with the United States yielded a lot of dividends United States yielded a lot of dividends United States yielded a lot of dividends for the kingdom. The discovery of oil for the kingdom. The discovery of oil for the kingdom. The discovery of oil you know and Aramco and literally we can you know and Aramco and literally we can you know and Aramco and literally we can go you know in every decade and and show go you know in every decade and and show go you know in every decade and and show examples of why a close partnership with examples of why a close partnership with examples of why a close partnership with the United States benefited the kingdom the United States benefited the kingdom the United States benefited the kingdom and also benefited the United States as and also benefited the United States as and also benefited the United States as well. So to have that kind of gesture, well. So to have that kind of gesture, well. So to have that kind of gesture, the grand gesture of a US pres the grand gesture of a US pres the grand gesture of a US pres president uh creating a president of of president uh creating a president of of president uh creating a president of of of visiting Saudi Arabia as a first of visiting Saudi Arabia as a first of visiting Saudi Arabia as a first trip. That was probably the ultimate trip. That was probably the ultimate trip. That was probably the ultimate global endorsement of that global endorsement of that global endorsement of that transformation plan. But yet transformation plan. But yet transformation plan. But yet a lot of things go wrong and a lot of a lot of things go wrong and a lot of a lot of things go wrong and a lot of things are are I mean even things are are I mean even things are are I mean even before he announces that women should be before he announces that women should be before he announces that women should be allowed to drive he arrests a whole allowed to drive he arrests a whole allowed to drive he arrests a whole bunch of women including Lujaku.

bunch of women including Lujaku. bunch of women including Lujaku. >> Absolutely. And I think people >> Absolutely. And I think people >> Absolutely. And I think people you know some people struggle to you know some people struggle to you know some people struggle to reconcile it but it's it's actually reconcile it but it's it's actually reconcile it but it's it's actually simple. uh you know simple. uh you know simple. uh you know everything that MBS does whether it's everything that MBS does whether it's everything that MBS does whether it's right or wrong whether we agree with it right or wrong whether we agree with it right or wrong whether we agree with it or disagree he is generally driven by or disagree he is generally driven by or disagree he is generally driven by his attempts to diversify uh the the the his attempts to diversify uh the the the his attempts to diversify uh the the the the economy from oil it's all it's the economy from oil it's all it's the economy from oil it's all it's driven by political survival he knows driven by political survival he knows driven by political survival he knows that the house of also the kingdom of that the house of also the kingdom of that the house of also the kingdom of Saudi Arabia will not survive unless Saudi Arabia will not survive unless Saudi Arabia will not survive unless they are independent of oil and If you they are independent of oil and If you they are independent of oil and If you put that in mind, everything he does is put that in mind, everything he does is put that in mind, everything he does is driven by that. And the way he would driven by that. And the way he would driven by that. And the way he would look at citizens, look at citizens, look at citizens, he would look at them as economic units. he would look at them as economic units. he would look at them as economic units. So if you're able to contribute to that So if you're able to contribute to that So if you're able to contribute to that transformation journey with added value, transformation journey with added value, transformation journey with added value, then you're welcome to drive a car, you then you're welcome to drive a car, you then you're welcome to drive a car, you know, go to a dance rave, attend a know, go to a dance rave, attend a know, go to a dance rave, attend a concert. Absolutely enjoy that. But dare concert. Absolutely enjoy that. But dare concert. Absolutely enjoy that. But dare you ask for anything more? And that's you ask for anything more? And that's you ask for anything more? And that's the only way you can reconcile where the only way you can reconcile where the only way you can reconcile where while on the same day he allowed women while on the same day he allowed women while on the same day he allowed women to drive, he arrested or ordered the to drive, he arrested or ordered the to drive, he arrested or ordered the arrest of the longtime women driving arrest of the longtime women driving arrest of the longtime women driving advocates um advocates um advocates um >> and other women activists as well >> and other women activists as well >> and other women activists as well >> because you know what? Women driving is >> because you know what? Women driving is >> because you know what? Women driving is not a right, it's a privilege.

not a right, it's a privilege. not a right, it's a privilege. >> That's what's the point? What's the >> That's what's the point? What's the >> That's what's the point? What's the point? I mean, let women drive and and point? I mean, let women drive and and point? I mean, let women drive and and let Lou Jane um be free. What what what let Lou Jane um be free. What what what let Lou Jane um be free. What what what is he getting out of putting her in is he getting out of putting her in is he getting out of putting her in prison? Because then people would prison? Because then people would prison? Because then people would perceive that grassroot activism in perceive that grassroot activism in perceive that grassroot activism in Saudi Arabia yields rights. Today Saudi Arabia yields rights. Today Saudi Arabia yields rights. Today they'll be asking for women driving. they'll be asking for women driving. they'll be asking for women driving. Tomorrow they'll be asking for Tomorrow they'll be asking for Tomorrow they'll be asking for elections. elections. elections. >> So what? >> So what? >> So what? >> Uh I don't think I think that's >> Uh I don't think I think that's >> Uh I don't think I think that's fundamentally [laughter] fundamentally [laughter] fundamentally [laughter] incompatible with the model of absolute incompatible with the model of absolute incompatible with the model of absolute monarchy for a start. monarchy for a start. monarchy for a start. >> Fair enough. Um >> Fair enough. Um >> Fair enough. Um >> but that is the issue like whatever >> but that is the issue like whatever >> but that is the issue like whatever whatever whatever whatever is there are no rights there are is there are no rights there are is there are no rights there are privilege that are bestowed upon you privilege that are bestowed upon you privilege that are bestowed upon you from the royal from the royal from the royal >> but there's ways in which he could have >> but there's ways in which he could have >> but there's ways in which he could have disciplined some of these women without disciplined some of these women without disciplined some of these women without putting them in prison without putting them in prison without putting them in prison without >> oh absolutely a lot of >> oh absolutely a lot of >> oh absolutely a lot of >> I mean some really dark stuff went on >> I mean some really dark stuff went on >> I mean some really dark stuff went on >> I think if you know having the benefit >> I think if you know having the benefit >> I think if you know having the benefit of hindsight you can argue that he could of hindsight you can argue that he could of hindsight you can argue that he could have achieved every objective have achieved every objective have achieved every objective uh uh he saw it with uh uh he saw it with uh uh he saw it with basically without without the needless basically without without the needless basically without without the needless oppression oppression oppression >> without arresting academics, without >> without arresting academics, without >> without arresting academics, without arresting poets and I mean you go give arresting poets and I mean you go give arresting poets and I mean you go give me the list. I mean he he's kidnapping me the list. I mean he he's kidnapping me the list. I mean he he's kidnapping out of state uh shaking down the out of state uh shaking down the out of state uh shaking down the business elite. I'll give you an business elite. I'll give you an business elite. I'll give you an example. So because that's a that would example. So because that's a that would example. So because that's a that would be a good example. So, uh, Saudi people be a good example. So, uh, Saudi people be a good example. So, uh, Saudi people are really the nicest people you could are really the nicest people you could are really the nicest people you could meet and and you've been there on the

meet and and you've been there on the meet and and you've been there on the ground and and you've, you know, you've ground and and you've, you know, you've ground and and you've, you know, you've engaged with them. If NBS had basically engaged with them. If NBS had basically engaged with them. If NBS had basically invited all of the people that he had invited all of the people that he had invited all of the people that he had uh, shaken down at the Ritz Carlton and uh, shaken down at the Ritz Carlton and uh, shaken down at the Ritz Carlton and told them, look, uh, you've been making told them, look, uh, you've been making told them, look, uh, you've been making money for all these years. There is no money for all these years. There is no money for all these years. There is no income tax in Saudi Arabia. Oil prices income tax in Saudi Arabia. Oil prices income tax in Saudi Arabia. Oil prices are tanking. I have ambitions to are tanking. I have ambitions to are tanking. I have ambitions to transform the economy. I want you to be transform the economy. I want you to be transform the economy. I want you to be part of it. I kid you not, people would part of it. I kid you not, people would part of it. I kid you not, people would have probably donated their wealth. Um, have probably donated their wealth. Um, have probably donated their wealth. Um, and I'm not exaggerating. and I'm not exaggerating. and I'm not exaggerating. Like, Saudi people are among the most Like, Saudi people are among the most Like, Saudi people are among the most generous people you'd see. Like I've generous people you'd see. Like I've generous people you'd see. Like I've seen elderly ladies sell their gold when seen elderly ladies sell their gold when seen elderly ladies sell their gold when the king announces you know a campaign the king announces you know a campaign the king announces you know a campaign to support freezing children in Syria or to support freezing children in Syria or to support freezing children in Syria or like you know Afghanistan or like you know Afghanistan or like you know Afghanistan or >> then why arrest them hold them in the >> then why arrest them hold them in the >> then why arrest them hold them in the Ritz Carlton and in fact in some cases Ritz Carlton and in fact in some cases Ritz Carlton and in fact in some cases torture or kill them? torture or kill them? torture or kill them? >> Oh I think that's a that's a mix of his >> Oh I think that's a that's a mix of his >> Oh I think that's a that's a mix of his own traits and his own demons and own traits and his own demons and own traits and his own demons and vindictiveness towards his you know vindictiveness towards his you know vindictiveness towards his you know cousins. uh there's an element of cousins. uh there's an element of cousins. uh there's an element of inferiority complex and I think he's inferiority complex and I think he's inferiority complex and I think he's also extremely ill advised by those also extremely ill advised by those also extremely ill advised by those around him and you know that's a recipe around him and you know that's a recipe around him and you know that's a recipe for disaster if you for disaster if you for disaster if you >> Katani or Muhammad Alshik >> Katani or Muhammad Alshik >> Katani or Muhammad Alshik >> absolutely >> absolutely >> absolutely especially Katani especially Katani especially Katani >> yeah especially Katani >> yeah especially Katani >> yeah especially Katani um um um does he get as far as you know any push does he get as far as you know any push does he get as far as you know any push back from the United States on his human back from the United States on his human back from the United States on his human rights record during this period of rights record during this period of rights record during this period of time?

time? time? I doubt he got any push back. If I doubt he got any push back. If I doubt he got any push back. If anything, maybe tacid approval. anything, maybe tacid approval. anything, maybe tacid approval. Um, and I'm not guessing. I remember Um, and I'm not guessing. I remember Um, and I'm not guessing. I remember there was a tweet by the president at there was a tweet by the president at there was a tweet by the president at that point endorsing what happened, you that point endorsing what happened, you that point endorsing what happened, you know, uh, both domestically like the know, uh, both domestically like the know, uh, both domestically like the Ritz Carlton or even, you know, the uh, Ritz Carlton or even, you know, the uh, Ritz Carlton or even, you know, the uh, the siege of Qatar. the siege of Qatar. the siege of Qatar. >> Right. As far as Ritz Carlton, I think >> Right. As far as Ritz Carlton, I think >> Right. As far as Ritz Carlton, I think the president tweeted something about the president tweeted something about the president tweeted something about these people were had been milking the these people were had been milking the these people were had been milking the kingdom and they deserved I guess the kingdom and they deserved I guess the kingdom and they deserved I guess the implication is they deserved what they implication is they deserved what they implication is they deserved what they got got got >> and and that speaks to the point I made >> and and that speaks to the point I made >> and and that speaks to the point I made earlier when you feel you have the earlier when you feel you have the earlier when you feel you have the endorsement of the United States endorsement of the United States endorsement of the United States effectively you feel you have a cart effectively you feel you have a cart effectively you feel you have a cart blanch to pursue whatever you want both blanch to pursue whatever you want both blanch to pursue whatever you want both domestically and regionally. domestically and regionally. domestically and regionally. >> Well, this is a central question. To >> Well, this is a central question. To >> Well, this is a central question. To what degree has the Trump administration what degree has the Trump administration what degree has the Trump administration in its first term um in its first term um in its first term um enabled enabled enabled Saudi's behavior, NBS's behavior? Saudi's behavior, NBS's behavior? Saudi's behavior, NBS's behavior? >> I think to a significant degree because >> I think to a significant degree because >> I think to a significant degree because remember King Salman didn't come to remember King Salman didn't come to remember King Salman didn't come to power, you know, when President Trump power, you know, when President Trump power, you know, when President Trump was elected. He was king since January was elected. He was king since January was elected. He was king since January 2015 during the Obama administration.

2015 during the Obama administration. 2015 during the Obama administration. So that was a restraint on NBS. can So that was a restraint on NBS. can So that was a restraint on NBS. can argue that again argue that again argue that again if you look at it it's pretty clear his if you look at it it's pretty clear his if you look at it it's pretty clear his actions including you know accession to actions including you know accession to actions including you know accession to the to the position of crown prince only the to the position of crown prince only the to the position of crown prince only started after Trump's visit Saudi Arabia started after Trump's visit Saudi Arabia started after Trump's visit Saudi Arabia it didn't start when his dad became king it didn't start when his dad became king it didn't start when his dad became king yes he was slowly consolidating power uh yes he was slowly consolidating power uh yes he was slowly consolidating power uh but like he was unleashed uh right after but like he was unleashed uh right after but like he was unleashed uh right after the Trump visit the Trump visit the Trump visit >> by the endorsement and approval of the >> by the endorsement and approval of the >> by the endorsement and approval of the US administration US administration US administration >> yes >> yes >> yes >> as a Saudi you hold the um the >> as a Saudi you hold the um the >> as a Saudi you hold the um the administration administration administration u responsible. u responsible. u responsible. >> I actually, you know, I'm I'm not I'm >> I actually, you know, I'm I'm not I'm >> I actually, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not a human rights activist and and you not a human rights activist and and you not a human rights activist and and you know, like I'm I'm I'm a physician. I'm know, like I'm I'm I'm a physician. I'm know, like I'm I'm I'm a physician. I'm an entrepreneur. You know, my dad worked an entrepreneur. You know, my dad worked an entrepreneur. You know, my dad worked for the Saudi government for a long for the Saudi government for a long for the Saudi government for a long time. And when I had meetings at the time. And when I had meetings at the time. And when I had meetings at the White House, even during the Biden White House, even during the Biden White House, even during the Biden administration, I was like, look, I'm administration, I was like, look, I'm administration, I was like, look, I'm not here to ask for a rupture in the US not here to ask for a rupture in the US not here to ask for a rupture in the US Saudi relationship or like, you know, Saudi relationship or like, you know, Saudi relationship or like, you know, uh, giving the Saudi leadership a bloody uh, giving the Saudi leadership a bloody uh, giving the Saudi leadership a bloody nose. Uh, I actually genuinely believe nose. Uh, I actually genuinely believe nose. Uh, I actually genuinely believe that the best case for Saudi Arabia on that the best case for Saudi Arabia on that the best case for Saudi Arabia on every front, social, economically, every front, social, economically, every front, social, economically, culturally, security, even human rights, culturally, security, even human rights, culturally, security, even human rights, is a robust US partnership where each is a robust US partnership where each is a robust US partnership where each aspect is part of the conversation. Um, aspect is part of the conversation. Um, aspect is part of the conversation. Um, so I think what the Trump administration so I think what the Trump administration so I think what the Trump administration was guilty of is basically the complete was guilty of is basically the complete was guilty of is basically the complete absence of any conversations uh over absence of any conversations uh over absence of any conversations uh over human rights. Now there were some minor human rights. Now there were some minor human rights. Now there were some minor exceptions when it came to US citizens.

exceptions when it came to US citizens. exceptions when it came to US citizens. Uh but overall uh in general uh not just Uh but overall uh in general uh not just Uh but overall uh in general uh not just MBS authoritarians are astute observers MBS authoritarians are astute observers MBS authoritarians are astute observers and they will perceive the lack of and they will perceive the lack of and they will perceive the lack of conversation of human rights as a green conversation of human rights as a green conversation of human rights as a green light and a tacit approval to do light and a tacit approval to do light and a tacit approval to do whatever they wish. I mean, this leads whatever they wish. I mean, this leads whatever they wish. I mean, this leads um up to uh the climax really of of um um up to uh the climax really of of um um up to uh the climax really of of um at least in terms of the public's view at least in terms of the public's view at least in terms of the public's view of Saudi Arabia of NBS actually ordering of Saudi Arabia of NBS actually ordering of Saudi Arabia of NBS actually ordering the murder of a Washington Post the murder of a Washington Post the murder of a Washington Post columnist. >> Uh so yes, for for the public, you know, >> Uh so yes, for for the public, you know, that was the kind of climax, but for me that was the kind of climax, but for me that was the kind of climax, but for me personally, it started long before that. personally, it started long before that. personally, it started long before that. and and you know I'll come to to to and and you know I'll come to to to and and you know I'll come to to to share you know where I was and what share you know where I was and what share you know where I was and what happened you know on the day Jamal was happened you know on the day Jamal was happened you know on the day Jamal was assassinated but you know I'm from a big assassinated but you know I'm from a big assassinated but you know I'm from a big family my mom and dad and you know two family my mom and dad and you know two family my mom and dad and you know two girls and and six boys all of us were girls and and six boys all of us were girls and and six boys all of us were outside the kingdom the only two that outside the kingdom the only two that outside the kingdom the only two that were remaining were my brother and were remaining were my brother and were remaining were my brother and sister uh Sarah and Omar um they were 16 sister uh Sarah and Omar um they were 16 sister uh Sarah and Omar um they were 16 and 17 at that point um just in Saudi and 17 at that point um just in Saudi and 17 at that point um just in Saudi waiting for their uh US student visa waiting for their uh US student visa waiting for their uh US student visa interview interview interview >> so they could come for an education in >> so they could come for an education in >> so they could come for an education in the US the US the US >> yes absolutely and join me in in in >> yes absolutely and join me in in in >> yes absolutely and join me in in in Boston. Uh you know, the succession Boston. Uh you know, the succession Boston. Uh you know, the succession change happened overnight. Uh and and it change happened overnight. Uh and and it change happened overnight. Uh and and it was June 21st. Um on the first day that was June 21st. Um on the first day that was June 21st. Um on the first day that Muhammad bin Salman became crown prince Muhammad bin Salman became crown prince Muhammad bin Salman became crown prince in the airport, I was as they were

in the airport, I was as they were in the airport, I was as they were trying to come to the US, they were trying to come to the US, they were trying to come to the US, they were banned from travel. They were told that banned from travel. They were told that banned from travel. They were told that you can't leave the kingdom. Uh and for you can't leave the kingdom. Uh and for you can't leave the kingdom. Uh and for us, we realized that, you know, as a us, we realized that, you know, as a us, we realized that, you know, as a family, we have, you know, bullseye on family, we have, you know, bullseye on family, we have, you know, bullseye on our back. and it was at clear as NBS's our back. and it was at clear as NBS's our back. and it was at clear as NBS's first, you know, day as crown prince. first, you know, day as crown prince. first, you know, day as crown prince. Um, so for for for for uh and that was Um, so for for for for uh and that was Um, so for for for for uh and that was long before, you know, all the other long before, you know, all the other long before, you know, all the other kind of oppressive milestones that we kind of oppressive milestones that we kind of oppressive milestones that we you talked about whether there was you talked about whether there was you talked about whether there was Carlton or the detainment of the female Carlton or the detainment of the female Carlton or the detainment of the female activist uh or even what happened with activist uh or even what happened with activist uh or even what happened with Jamal Kashuki. Um ultimately three years Jamal Kashuki. Um ultimately three years Jamal Kashuki. Um ultimately three years later my siblings were disappeared and later my siblings were disappeared and later my siblings were disappeared and this March it will be six years. um and this March it will be six years. um and this March it will be six years. um and nobody has seen them or visited them nobody has seen them or visited them nobody has seen them or visited them since then. Um so for me like I I live since then. Um so for me like I I live since then. Um so for me like I I live this every day and I can can only this every day and I can can only this every day and I can can only imagine what others are going through as imagine what others are going through as imagine what others are going through as well. Um when I speak about the case of well. Um when I speak about the case of well. Um when I speak about the case of my sibling, I don't just speak about it my sibling, I don't just speak about it my sibling, I don't just speak about it because it's documented and verified. Um because it's documented and verified. Um because it's documented and verified. Um but it's also emblematic of the wider but it's also emblematic of the wider but it's also emblematic of the wider oppression that continues until today.

oppression that continues until today. oppression that continues until today. Now, Now, Now, >> were were you expecting anything a was >> were were you expecting anything a was >> were were you expecting anything a was it a possibility in your mind that this it a possibility in your mind that this it a possibility in your mind that this would happen on June 21st, 2017 when would happen on June 21st, 2017 when would happen on June 21st, 2017 when your uh your uh your uh >> I was worried. >> I was worried. >> I was worried. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I was worried and actually >> I was worried and actually >> I was worried and actually >> is that why they decided to leave at >> is that why they decided to leave at >> is that why they decided to leave at that point? that point? that point? >> No, I I I made the decision for my >> No, I I I made the decision for my >> No, I I I made the decision for my family as early as December 2016. family as early as December 2016. family as early as December 2016. >> So, that was a coincidence >> So, that was a coincidence >> So, that was a coincidence >> that it was just the the interview date >> that it was just the the interview date >> that it was just the the interview date for the visa. That's the reason they for the visa. That's the reason they for the visa. That's the reason they were waiting until then. were waiting until then. were waiting until then. uh the December 2016 uh 16 during uh the December 2016 uh 16 during uh the December 2016 uh 16 during Trump's transition and actually part of Trump's transition and actually part of Trump's transition and actually part of my analysis was driven by the the the uh my analysis was driven by the the the uh my analysis was driven by the the the uh the kind of election of of President the kind of election of of President the kind of election of of President Trump. I remember you know calling my Trump. I remember you know calling my Trump. I remember you know calling my mom and dad they were in Saudi I was in mom and dad they were in Saudi I was in mom and dad they were in Saudi I was in Boston like you know uh this is going to Boston like you know uh this is going to Boston like you know uh this is going to get ugly in Saudi Arabia. there is, you get ugly in Saudi Arabia. there is, you get ugly in Saudi Arabia. there is, you know, political jockeying for the throne know, political jockeying for the throne know, political jockeying for the throne and a lot of collateral damage is going and a lot of collateral damage is going and a lot of collateral damage is going to happen and I think it's going to hurt to happen and I think it's going to hurt to happen and I think it's going to hurt a lot of innocent people including us a lot of innocent people including us a lot of innocent people including us and and and it's I think people inside Saudi are it's I think people inside Saudi are it's I think people inside Saudi are live in a an information bubble and live in a an information bubble and live in a an information bubble and sometimes they have their own biases cuz sometimes they have their own biases cuz sometimes they have their own biases cuz you don't want to believe how grave you don't want to believe how grave you don't want to believe how grave things are because then you get upset things are because then you get upset things are because then you get upset and you need to to to act on it. But and you need to to to act on it. But and you need to to to act on it. But being able to observe Saudi from the being able to observe Saudi from the being able to observe Saudi from the United States, like it allowed my vision United States, like it allowed my vision United States, like it allowed my vision to be clear and unclouded. And I told my to be clear and unclouded. And I told my to be clear and unclouded. And I told my mom and dad, look, it is going to get mom and dad, look, it is going to get mom and dad, look, it is going to get ugly. Come to Boston. Let's focus on the ugly. Come to Boston. Let's focus on the ugly. Come to Boston. Let's focus on the kids education. Let's sit this house for

kids education. Let's sit this house for kids education. Let's sit this house for the next 3 years cuz it will be ugly. the next 3 years cuz it will be ugly. the next 3 years cuz it will be ugly. And I was like, oh no, you're And I was like, oh no, you're And I was like, oh no, you're exaggerating. You're always, you know, exaggerating. You're always, you know, exaggerating. You're always, you know, worst case scenario, it's the physician worst case scenario, it's the physician worst case scenario, it's the physician in Houston, you know, talking again. And in Houston, you know, talking again. And in Houston, you know, talking again. And I said, fine, I'll I'll apply, you know, I said, fine, I'll I'll apply, you know, I said, fine, I'll I'll apply, you know, I I'll take care of the academic I I'll take care of the academic I I'll take care of the academic application. Um, and you know, here I am application. Um, and you know, here I am application. Um, and you know, here I am today. Unfortunately, you know, um, today. Unfortunately, you know, um, today. Unfortunately, you know, um, whatever I, uh, kind of expected, uh, whatever I, uh, kind of expected, uh, whatever I, uh, kind of expected, uh, stands to be true. Um, stands to be true. Um, stands to be true. Um, >> can I ask what led you, uh, to make that >> can I ask what led you, uh, to make that >> can I ask what led you, uh, to make that phone call in December of 2016? Uh, you phone call in December of 2016? Uh, you phone call in December of 2016? Uh, you say Trump had been elected. What is it say Trump had been elected. What is it say Trump had been elected. What is it about that election of Donald Trump that about that election of Donald Trump that about that election of Donald Trump that led you to believe that things were led you to believe that things were led you to believe that things were going to get nasty? going to get nasty? going to get nasty? >> It was, it was one of the it was one of >> It was, it was one of the it was one of >> It was, it was one of the it was one of the factors. So again like being from the factors. So again like being from the factors. So again like being from the same uh generation as as as the the same uh generation as as as the the same uh generation as as as the current crown prince as MBS uh knowing current crown prince as MBS uh knowing current crown prince as MBS uh knowing his personal traits knowing the stories his personal traits knowing the stories his personal traits knowing the stories seeing how my father was targeting seeing how my father was targeting seeing how my father was targeting throughout 2015 and 2016 throughout 2015 and 2016 throughout 2015 and 2016 uh understanding that uh understanding that uh understanding that Muhammad bin Salman wanted to be king of Muhammad bin Salman wanted to be king of Muhammad bin Salman wanted to be king of Saudi Arabia and that the last hurdle Saudi Arabia and that the last hurdle Saudi Arabia and that the last hurdle happens to be my dad's boss. Obviously, happens to be my dad's boss. Obviously, happens to be my dad's boss. Obviously, it was going to get ugly. And then it was going to get ugly. And then it was going to get ugly. And then >> but what was it about the Trump election >> but what was it about the Trump election >> but what was it about the Trump election that made you that made you that made you >> because because then I knew that cuz you >> because because then I knew that cuz you >> because because then I knew that cuz you know it was Trump versus Hillary. If know it was Trump versus Hillary. If know it was Trump versus Hillary. If Hillary had won, it would have probably Hillary had won, it would have probably Hillary had won, it would have probably been the same kind of you know been the same kind of you know been the same kind of you know continuation of traditional diplomacy continuation of traditional diplomacy continuation of traditional diplomacy towards Saudi Arabia and not taking towards Saudi Arabia and not taking towards Saudi Arabia and not taking sides and and you know not you know sides and and you know not you know sides and and you know not you know tipping the scale one way or another.

tipping the scale one way or another. tipping the scale one way or another. But I thought that with the election of But I thought that with the election of But I thought that with the election of President Trump who is you know an President Trump who is you know an President Trump who is you know an anti-establishment who came to disrupt anti-establishment who came to disrupt anti-establishment who came to disrupt and knowing how you know persuasive NBS and knowing how you know persuasive NBS and knowing how you know persuasive NBS can be I thought that there was a chance can be I thought that there was a chance can be I thought that there was a chance that basically NBS would feel empowered that basically NBS would feel empowered that basically NBS would feel empowered to do things that he wasn't comfortable to do things that he wasn't comfortable to do things that he wasn't comfortable doing uh during the Obama doing uh during the Obama doing uh during the Obama administration. You know, you your administration. You know, you your administration. You know, you your question originally was about Kashukti question originally was about Kashukti question originally was about Kashukti and and and let me relive it like through my own let me relive it like through my own let me relive it like through my own lens, okay? Like I was I was sitting for lens, okay? Like I was I was sitting for lens, okay? Like I was I was sitting for one of my graduate classes um and then one of my graduate classes um and then one of my graduate classes um and then you know I had a a WhatsApp group of you know I had a a WhatsApp group of you know I had a a WhatsApp group of some friends. One of them shared uh a some friends. One of them shared uh a some friends. One of them shared uh a screenshot of a of a tweet by uh Saudi screenshot of a of a tweet by uh Saudi screenshot of a of a tweet by uh Saudi exile who basically said Jamal Khuki had exile who basically said Jamal Khuki had exile who basically said Jamal Khuki had entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul and hasn't uh appeared.

and hasn't uh appeared. and hasn't uh appeared. And my first reaction was like please And my first reaction was like please And my first reaction was like please don't let it be what I think it is. And don't let it be what I think it is. And don't let it be what I think it is. And I kid you not, I felt my heart falling I kid you not, I felt my heart falling I kid you not, I felt my heart falling to my knees. Not because I was scared, to my knees. Not because I was scared, to my knees. Not because I was scared, but I had really wished like that what I but I had really wished like that what I but I had really wished like that what I thought really happened at that point thought really happened at that point thought really happened at that point wasn't true. Um, I wasn't true. Um, I wasn't true. Um, I I leave the room. Uh, I call one of my I leave the room. Uh, I call one of my I leave the room. Uh, I call one of my friends who's close to Jamal cuz I friends who's close to Jamal cuz I friends who's close to Jamal cuz I didn't have a direct relationship with didn't have a direct relationship with didn't have a direct relationship with Jamal. I said, "No, it's true. He's been Jamal. I said, "No, it's true. He's been Jamal. I said, "No, it's true. He's been missing for a few hours and his missing for a few hours and his missing for a few hours and his fiance's, you know, um, basically fiance's, you know, um, basically fiance's, you know, um, basically outside waiting for him." I sent the outside waiting for him." I sent the outside waiting for him." I sent the tweet to my dad. Um, tweet to my dad. Um, tweet to my dad. Um, and I told him, I actually still have and I told him, I actually still have and I told him, I actually still have that conversation that I think they that conversation that I think they that conversation that I think they killed him. And killed him. And killed him. And he said, "Oh, there's no way." And he said, "Oh, there's no way." And he said, "Oh, there's no way." And again, this is somebody who's worked for again, this is somebody who's worked for again, this is somebody who's worked for the Saudi security apparatus for almost the Saudi security apparatus for almost the Saudi security apparatus for almost four decades. And I said, "No, I think four decades. And I said, "No, I think four decades. And I said, "No, I think they did." And at that point, why did they did." And at that point, why did they did." And at that point, why did you think they did? you think they did? you think they did? again because knowing the personal again because knowing the personal again because knowing the personal traits, knowing the vindictiveness, traits, knowing the vindictiveness, traits, knowing the vindictiveness, knowing the vengeance, knowing knowing knowing the vengeance, knowing knowing knowing the vengeance, knowing knowing at that point the fact that so many at that point the fact that so many at that point the fact that so many things had happened with zero things had happened with zero things had happened with zero consequences consequences consequences like there like it would only empower like there like it would only empower like there like it would only empower you to do more things. And you know, you to do more things. And you know, you to do more things. And you know, [sighs] we were waiting and waiting and [sighs] we were waiting and waiting and [sighs] we were waiting and waiting and waiting. The following day, same time, waiting. The following day, same time, waiting. The following day, same time, I get a message and I remember seeing a I get a message and I remember seeing a I get a message and I remember seeing a notification on my phone screen and it notification on my phone screen and it notification on my phone screen and it was from my father who was at that point

was from my father who was at that point was from my father who was at that point was in in Canada saying may he rest in was in in Canada saying may he rest in was in in Canada saying may he rest in peace peace peace and look I'm having goosebumps again and look I'm having goosebumps again and look I'm having goosebumps again now. Uh and so I leave the class and I now. Uh and so I leave the class and I now. Uh and so I leave the class and I call like who? I was like Jamal. I was call like who? I was like Jamal. I was call like who? I was like Jamal. I was like what do you mean? I was like he was like what do you mean? I was like he was like what do you mean? I was like he was killed in the embassy. I was like you killed in the embassy. I was like you killed in the embassy. I was like you got to be kidding me. I was like, "No." got to be kidding me. I was like, "No." got to be kidding me. I was like, "No." And he was butchered by the doctor. Uh I And he was butchered by the doctor. Uh I And he was butchered by the doctor. Uh I was like, "How do you know?" He told me was like, "How do you know?" He told me was like, "How do you know?" He told me how he got to know from like obviously how he got to know from like obviously how he got to know from like obviously his intelligence kind of uh relationship his intelligence kind of uh relationship his intelligence kind of uh relationship and that he was specifically warned not and that he was specifically warned not and that he was specifically warned not to go to any close to any Saudi mission. to go to any close to any Saudi mission. to go to any close to any Saudi mission. And it was a shock for everyone. um and And it was a shock for everyone. um and And it was a shock for everyone. um and getting to know what happened within 24 getting to know what happened within 24 getting to know what happened within 24 hours, but then seeing what transpired hours, but then seeing what transpired hours, but then seeing what transpired afterwards for about almost 3 weeks, afterwards for about almost 3 weeks, afterwards for about almost 3 weeks, including the implausible deniability including the implausible deniability including the implausible deniability and the the narratives that the Saudi and the the narratives that the Saudi and the the narratives that the Saudi authorities were putting out. that was authorities were putting out. that was authorities were putting out. that was pretty harmful um to the kingdom's pretty harmful um to the kingdom's pretty harmful um to the kingdom's image, to the credibility um to image, to the credibility um to image, to the credibility um to everybody associated with the everybody associated with the everybody associated with the >> still clinging to the theory >> still clinging to the theory >> still clinging to the theory they came up with that it was a rogue they came up with that it was a rogue they came up with that it was a rogue operation that the crown prince had no operation that the crown prince had no operation that the crown prince had no knowledge of. It doesn't hold water.

knowledge of. It doesn't hold water. knowledge of. It doesn't hold water. >> Look, Saudi Arabia was always an >> Look, Saudi Arabia was always an >> Look, Saudi Arabia was always an absolute monarchy. Uh it's a hyper absolute monarchy. Uh it's a hyper absolute monarchy. Uh it's a hyper centralized state. centralized state. centralized state. In the last decade, even more so. In the last decade, even more so. In the last decade, even more so. Nothing Nothing Nothing nothing good or bad can happen without nothing good or bad can happen without nothing good or bad can happen without at least the knowledge uh of people at at least the knowledge uh of people at at least the knowledge uh of people at the top of the pyramid. I think that's the top of the pyramid. I think that's the top of the pyramid. I think that's you know fair to say. Also as a you know fair to say. Also as a you know fair to say. Also as a physician why do you send a forensic physician why do you send a forensic physician why do you send a forensic pathologist pathologist pathologist >> to to a crime scene? If you want to >> to to a crime scene? If you want to >> to to a crime scene? If you want to >> if you want to drug somebody send an >> if you want to drug somebody send an >> if you want to drug somebody send an anesthetist. They're pretty good with anesthetist. They're pretty good with anesthetist. They're pretty good with IVs. They know them. like sending IVs. They know them. like sending IVs. They know them. like sending somebody who only deals with dead bodies somebody who only deals with dead bodies somebody who only deals with dead bodies kind of gives kind of gives kind of gives >> and he comes in with a bone saw >> and he comes in with a bone saw >> and he comes in with a bone saw >> antibbody double >> antibbody double >> antibbody double >> and they talk about uh needing to um cut >> and they talk about uh needing to um cut >> and they talk about uh needing to um cut the body up beforehand. I've seen the the body up beforehand. I've seen the the body up beforehand. I've seen the transcript. transcript. transcript. How did your dad process this? You say How did your dad process this? You say How did your dad process this? You say he initially said it was impossible. He he initially said it was impossible. He he initially said it was impossible. He didn't believe it.

didn't believe it. didn't believe it. Yeah, he didn't believe it because I Yeah, he didn't believe it because I Yeah, he didn't believe it because I mean like probably denial is the first mean like probably denial is the first mean like probably denial is the first reaction but like you know as an reaction but like you know as an reaction but like you know as an intelligence uh a former intelligence intelligence uh a former intelligence intelligence uh a former intelligence official like official like official like there are red lines that you shouldn't there are red lines that you shouldn't there are red lines that you shouldn't cross you know um and cross you know um and cross you know um and you know um you know um you know um obviously uh kidnappings and and and obviously uh kidnappings and and and obviously uh kidnappings and and and assassinations you know are uh go beyond assassinations you know are uh go beyond assassinations you know are uh go beyond that. Um and the fact that that. Um and the fact that that. Um and the fact that you know it it's just like he I don't you know it it's just like he I don't you know it it's just like he I don't think he believed that the brutality of think he believed that the brutality of think he believed that the brutality of you know the regime at that point would you know the regime at that point would you know the regime at that point would reach to what happened in a stumble reach to what happened in a stumble reach to what happened in a stumble >> under MBN there were at least there's at >> under MBN there were at least there's at >> under MBN there were at least there's at least one incident or perhaps more of least one incident or perhaps more of least one incident or perhaps more of attempts to attempts to attempts to repatriate repatriate repatriate uh Saudi royal family members in one uh Saudi royal family members in one uh Saudi royal family members in one case bring them back to the kingdom.

case bring them back to the kingdom. case bring them back to the kingdom. >> So, uh I don't know if you're speaking >> So, uh I don't know if you're speaking >> So, uh I don't know if you're speaking about the same individuals about the same individuals about the same individuals >> Switzerland to Egypt. >> Switzerland to Egypt. >> Switzerland to Egypt. >> Yeah. But that wasn't that wasn't uh MBN >> Yeah. But that wasn't that wasn't uh MBN >> Yeah. But that wasn't that wasn't uh MBN was present. But at that point, you have was present. But at that point, you have was present. But at that point, you have to acknowledge that there was a whole to acknowledge that there was a whole to acknowledge that there was a whole team operating under the opice of the team operating under the opice of the team operating under the opice of the royal court. There was almost two royal court. There was almost two royal court. There was almost two parallel states. And and I'm actually parallel states. And and I'm actually parallel states. And and I'm actually glad that you bring this up because in glad that you bring this up because in glad that you bring this up because in uh shortly before my dad was dismissed uh shortly before my dad was dismissed uh shortly before my dad was dismissed in September 2015, um there was one of in September 2015, um there was one of in September 2015, um there was one of there were a few royals who are pretty there were a few royals who are pretty there were a few royals who are pretty vocal in descent outside the kingdom and vocal in descent outside the kingdom and vocal in descent outside the kingdom and the current crown prince, you know, the current crown prince, you know, the current crown prince, you know, asked my dad for basically we need to asked my dad for basically we need to asked my dad for basically we need to get these guys back and can we use like get these guys back and can we use like get these guys back and can we use like Mabah, which is a Saudi kind of Mabah, which is a Saudi kind of Mabah, which is a Saudi kind of counterterrorism or domestic counterterrorism or domestic counterterrorism or domestic intelligence force to repatriate intelligence force to repatriate intelligence force to repatriate and and and >> MBS NBS. Yes. Um your father. >> MBS NBS. Yes. Um your father. >> MBS NBS. Yes. Um your father. >> Yes. And and and basically my dad said, >> Yes. And and and basically my dad said, >> Yes. And and and basically my dad said, "No, we don't do this." "No, we don't do this." "No, we don't do this." >> And it's quite interesting because >> And it's quite interesting because >> And it's quite interesting because it was that kind of denial like when my it was that kind of denial like when my it was that kind of denial like when my dad kind of refused that led NBS to dad kind of refused that led NBS to dad kind of refused that led NBS to create uh his personal kind of team, the create uh his personal kind of team, the create uh his personal kind of team, the Notorious Tiger Squad. And if you Notorious Tiger Squad. And if you Notorious Tiger Squad. And if you actually go to the OFAC page, you would actually go to the OFAC page, you would actually go to the OFAC page, you would see that it was established in September see that it was established in September see that it was established in September 2015. And that was the same month my dad 2015. And that was the same month my dad 2015. And that was the same month my dad was dismissed.

was dismissed. was dismissed. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, so there were I wouldn't call them so there were I wouldn't call them so there were I wouldn't call them institutional, but at least there were institutional, but at least there were institutional, but at least there were individual safeguards from individual safeguards from individual safeguards from things uh that prevented things uh from things uh that prevented things uh from things uh that prevented things uh from happening like like what happened in happening like like what happened in happening like like what happened in Estanul. Estanul. Estanul. >> You witnessed the reaction of the Trump >> You witnessed the reaction of the Trump >> You witnessed the reaction of the Trump administration to that. What was your um administration to that. What was your um administration to that. What was your um what did you think? >> So now I'm I'm I'm trying to like I'm >> So now I'm I'm I'm trying to like I'm I'm reliving the moments. It was it was I'm reliving the moments. It was it was I'm reliving the moments. It was it was interesting cuz I was in Boston at that interesting cuz I was in Boston at that interesting cuz I was in Boston at that time. Uh and there was a lot of, you time. Uh and there was a lot of, you time. Uh and there was a lot of, you know, Saudi students, some of them know, Saudi students, some of them know, Saudi students, some of them royals. They were celebrating. They royals. They were celebrating. They royals. They were celebrating. They thought that was going to be the end for thought that was going to be the end for thought that was going to be the end for for MBS, that he was his father was for MBS, that he was his father was for MBS, that he was his father was going to be pressured on sidelining him. going to be pressured on sidelining him. going to be pressured on sidelining him. I said, "No, he's going to survive." Uh, I said, "No, he's going to survive." Uh, I said, "No, he's going to survive." Uh, like that was my impression from from like that was my impression from from like that was my impression from from from day one. I thought that the Trump from day one. I thought that the Trump from day one. I thought that the Trump admin would uh stand by NBS and that we admin would uh stand by NBS and that we admin would uh stand by NBS and that we that he would um uh basically uh you that he would um uh basically uh you that he would um uh basically uh you know um know um know um emerge uh unscathed. I think that's a emerge uh unscathed. I think that's a emerge uh unscathed. I think that's a bit unfair. I think it did do a lot of bit unfair. I think it did do a lot of bit unfair. I think it did do a lot of damage to NBS. I don't think he was held damage to NBS. I don't think he was held damage to NBS. I don't think he was held accountable. Uh but it did dent his it accountable. Uh but it did dent his it accountable. Uh but it did dent his it will dent his legacy you know for the will dent his legacy you know for the will dent his legacy you know for the rest of his life.

rest of his life. rest of his life. >> But had the Trump administration not >> But had the Trump administration not >> But had the Trump administration not stood by him [sighs] stood by him [sighs] stood by him [sighs] had Kushner and Pompeo and and Trump and had Kushner and Pompeo and and Trump and had Kushner and Pompeo and and Trump and and Bolton not stood by the crown prince and Bolton not stood by the crown prince and Bolton not stood by the crown prince at that time. Do you think it would have at that time. Do you think it would have at that time. Do you think it would have changed? changed? changed? >> I think it would have. I think it would >> I think it would have. I think it would >> I think it would have. I think it would have especially if they applied pressure have especially if they applied pressure have especially if they applied pressure at least to resolve some of the standing at least to resolve some of the standing at least to resolve some of the standing matters. But if I can be completely matters. But if I can be completely matters. But if I can be completely honest here, honest here, honest here, if what happened to Jamaal Kashuki if what happened to Jamaal Kashuki if what happened to Jamaal Kashuki happened under the Obama admin or the happened under the Obama admin or the happened under the Obama admin or the Biden admin or any US admin, I think the Biden admin or any US admin, I think the Biden admin or any US admin, I think the ultimate outcome would have been the ultimate outcome would have been the ultimate outcome would have been the same. It would have been just probably same. It would have been just probably same. It would have been just probably better at PR management. better at PR management. better at PR management. Unfortunately, Unfortunately, Unfortunately, >> that was um 2018. >> that was um 2018. >> that was um 2018. um we go into um um we go into um um we go into um well I don't want to go through all the well I don't want to go through all the well I don't want to go through all the details of what happens right after that details of what happens right after that details of what happens right after that but um eventually we have a campaign but um eventually we have a campaign but um eventually we have a campaign where Biden is saying I'm going to hold where Biden is saying I'm going to hold where Biden is saying I'm going to hold MBS MBS MBS um responsible he's in my view a pariah um responsible he's in my view a pariah um responsible he's in my view a pariah and uh did you think that he meant it and uh did you think that he meant it and uh did you think that he meant it >> for campaign purposes yes he meant it >> for campaign purposes yes he meant it >> for campaign purposes yes he meant it would I was I confident that he was would I was I confident that he was would I was I confident that he was going to follow through absolutely Not going to follow through absolutely Not going to follow through absolutely Not and and actually and and actually and and actually when it comes to when it comes to when it comes to you know human rights and again this is you know human rights and again this is you know human rights and again this is not not ignoring the long-term effect uh

not not ignoring the long-term effect uh not not ignoring the long-term effect uh on on on on basically uh human rights and on basically uh human rights and on basically uh human rights and democracy. I I think what democracy. I I think what democracy. I I think what Biden did which is making all these Biden did which is making all these Biden did which is making all these campaign promises whether it's towards campaign promises whether it's towards campaign promises whether it's towards NBS or other like you know Middle NBS or other like you know Middle NBS or other like you know Middle Eastern dictators and then basically Eastern dictators and then basically Eastern dictators and then basically uh going in with a hat in hand when he uh going in with a hat in hand when he uh going in with a hat in hand when he was in office is actually more dangerous was in office is actually more dangerous was in office is actually more dangerous and more damaging to human rights than and more damaging to human rights than and more damaging to human rights than being blatant as as Trump. Um in the being blatant as as Trump. Um in the being blatant as as Trump. Um in the case of Jamaal Kashuki uh and what case of Jamaal Kashuki uh and what case of Jamaal Kashuki uh and what happened happened happened what NBS what Trump said remember during what NBS what Trump said remember during what NBS what Trump said remember during interviews and you know some of the uh interviews and you know some of the uh interviews and you know some of the uh releases from the White House is maybe releases from the White House is maybe releases from the White House is maybe he did maybe he didn't he left it he did maybe he didn't he left it he did maybe he didn't he left it ambiguous and that was kind of a ambiguous and that was kind of a ambiguous and that was kind of a constraint what Biden effectively did is constraint what Biden effectively did is constraint what Biden effectively did is like like like I'm going to hold you a pariah like I'm I'm going to hold you a pariah like I'm I'm going to hold you a pariah like I'm going to hold you accountable you're a going to hold you accountable you're a going to hold you accountable you're a pariah pariah pariah is Biden's director of national is Biden's director of national is Biden's director of national intelligence released the report intelligence released the report intelligence released the report and then Biden went and gave him BS a and then Biden went and gave him BS a and then Biden went and gave him BS a fist bump. You know what that looks fist bump. You know what that looks fist bump. You know what that looks like? Looks like an indictment then like? Looks like an indictment then like? Looks like an indictment then allowing somebody to walk out of the allowing somebody to walk out of the allowing somebody to walk out of the courthouse.

courthouse. courthouse. >> So basically says I believe he did it >> So basically says I believe he did it >> So basically says I believe he did it and I'm going to ignore it. and I'm going to ignore it. and I'm going to ignore it. >> Yes. And you know what? How that would >> Yes. And you know what? How that would >> Yes. And you know what? How that would be perceived like oo that was a near be perceived like oo that was a near be perceived like oo that was a near miss. Next time I just have to make sure miss. Next time I just have to make sure miss. Next time I just have to make sure I'm not caught. So that's why I actually So that's why I actually think Biden did more harm to Saudi human think Biden did more harm to Saudi human think Biden did more harm to Saudi human rights than President Trump. rights than President Trump. rights than President Trump. >> You mentioned that you'd been in the >> You mentioned that you'd been in the >> You mentioned that you'd been in the White House and had conversations on the White House and had conversations on the White House and had conversations on the issues of that were talking about human issues of that were talking about human issues of that were talking about human rights in Saudi Arabia. Can you share rights in Saudi Arabia. Can you share rights in Saudi Arabia. Can you share any of that with us? any of that with us? any of that with us? >> Uh yes. Uh I actually even I wrote I >> Uh yes. Uh I actually even I wrote I >> Uh yes. Uh I actually even I wrote I wrote an opad uh shortly before Biden wrote an opad uh shortly before Biden wrote an opad uh shortly before Biden announced that he was going to Saudi announced that he was going to Saudi announced that he was going to Saudi Arabia and one of the recommendations Arabia and one of the recommendations Arabia and one of the recommendations was actually like for Biden to go to was actually like for Biden to go to was actually like for Biden to go to Saudi Arabia but with conditionality. Saudi Arabia but with conditionality. Saudi Arabia but with conditionality. Um Um Um we had multiple I had multiple meetings we had multiple I had multiple meetings we had multiple I had multiple meetings in the state department in the white in the state department in the white in the state department in the white house you know national security council house you know national security council house you know national security council and the way I would go in as I will say and the way I would go in as I will say and the way I would go in as I will say look um you know I'm a Saudi citizen I look um you know I'm a Saudi citizen I look um you know I'm a Saudi citizen I love my country love my country love my country um I think me and my friends here uh um I think me and my friends here uh um I think me and my friends here uh believe in the value of a strong Saudi believe in the value of a strong Saudi believe in the value of a strong Saudi US relationship nobody here is asking US relationship nobody here is asking US relationship nobody here is asking you for a rupture you for a rupture you for a rupture or making MBS a pariah. But we do or making MBS a pariah. But we do or making MBS a pariah. But we do believe that you have an abundance of believe that you have an abundance of believe that you have an abundance of leverages and that your policy should be leverages and that your policy should be leverages and that your policy should be more nuanced than the extreme of pariah

more nuanced than the extreme of pariah more nuanced than the extreme of pariah or lopsided fist bumps and or lopsided fist bumps and or lopsided fist bumps and >> the hypocrisy of that. No, they go quiet >> the hypocrisy of that. No, they go quiet >> the hypocrisy of that. No, they go quiet because that was like you pull the because that was like you pull the because that was like you pull the argument from underneath them because argument from underneath them because argument from underneath them because they they're coming in they they're coming in they they're coming in >> with the straw man argument that is a >> with the straw man argument that is a >> with the straw man argument that is a self-s serving excuse to do nothing self-s serving excuse to do nothing self-s serving excuse to do nothing where like, oh, you're asking us to where like, oh, you're asking us to where like, oh, you're asking us to rupture the relationship with the rupture the relationship with the rupture the relationship with the kingdom. Of course, we can't do that. kingdom. Of course, we can't do that. kingdom. Of course, we can't do that. It's like, no, no, no, no. Actually, It's like, no, no, no, no. Actually, It's like, no, no, no, no. Actually, counterintuitively, we're here to tell counterintuitively, we're here to tell counterintuitively, we're here to tell you to enhance the relationship because you to enhance the relationship because you to enhance the relationship because we believe that the best case for Saudi we believe that the best case for Saudi we believe that the best case for Saudi Arabia as a state, as a country, as Arabia as a state, as a country, as Arabia as a state, as a country, as people on all fronts, economic, people on all fronts, economic, people on all fronts, economic, healthcare, education, and human rights healthcare, education, and human rights healthcare, education, and human rights is a robust Saudi US relationship where is a robust Saudi US relationship where is a robust Saudi US relationship where everything including human rights is everything including human rights is everything including human rights is part of the conversation. part of the conversation. part of the conversation. >> Who are you meeting with? >> Who are you meeting with? >> Who are you meeting with? >> National security officials >> National security officials >> National security officials >> of the Biden administration. >> of the Biden administration. >> of the Biden administration. >> Yes. and senior State Department >> Yes. and senior State Department >> Yes. and senior State Department officials within the Near East Affairs officials within the Near East Affairs officials within the Near East Affairs Office. Office. Office. >> I mean, you had a very powerful case to >> I mean, you had a very powerful case to >> I mean, you had a very powerful case to to make about your siblings, to make about your siblings, to make about your siblings, >> about your sister, about your brother, >> about your sister, about your brother, >> about your sister, about your brother, about your uncle, about your uncle, about your uncle, >> about my uh brother-in-law.

>> about my uh brother-in-law. >> about my uh brother-in-law. >> And again, I love my country, you know, >> And again, I love my country, you know, >> And again, I love my country, you know, I I love I love Saudi people. I'm not I I love I love Saudi people. I'm not I I love I love Saudi people. I'm not It's actually very tough for me to be in It's actually very tough for me to be in It's actually very tough for me to be in a position where I'm forced a position where I'm forced a position where I'm forced to fight for my family in a way that can to fight for my family in a way that can to fight for my family in a way that can be misontrred as as uh as dissent. be misontrred as as uh as dissent. be misontrred as as uh as dissent. Obviously, I do not Obviously, I do not Obviously, I do not >> as being anti-Saudi. >> as being anti-Saudi. >> as being anti-Saudi. >> Yes. You know, and that was the essence >> Yes. You know, and that was the essence >> Yes. You know, and that was the essence of a letter I recently delivered of a letter I recently delivered of a letter I recently delivered to Saudi officials in the embassy around to Saudi officials in the embassy around to Saudi officials in the embassy around the corner here. I went inside the the corner here. I went inside the the corner here. I went inside the embassy. embassy. embassy. >> What did your letter say? >> What did your letter say? >> What did your letter say? >> So, let me give you the backdrop to >> So, let me give you the backdrop to >> So, let me give you the backdrop to that. Uh, and it's a very interesting that. Uh, and it's a very interesting that. Uh, and it's a very interesting anecdote. Um, so I, uh, it was elections anecdote. Um, so I, uh, it was elections anecdote. Um, so I, uh, it was elections day, the second Trump election day. Um, day, the second Trump election day. Um, day, the second Trump election day. Um, it was a Tuesday. Uh, I had work it was a Tuesday. Uh, I had work it was a Tuesday. Uh, I had work meetings all morning. Uh, I was driving meetings all morning. Uh, I was driving meetings all morning. Uh, I was driving to pick up my kids from school and my to pick up my kids from school and my to pick up my kids from school and my phone rings and I look and it says phone rings and I look and it says phone rings and I look and it says Embassy of Saudi Arabia. I was like, Embassy of Saudi Arabia. I was like, Embassy of Saudi Arabia. I was like, "This has to be a spam call." I answer "This has to be a spam call." I answer "This has to be a spam call." I answer and it's the head of uh, citizen affair and it's the head of uh, citizen affair and it's the head of uh, citizen affair at the consulate. Very nice, very at the consulate. Very nice, very at the consulate. Very nice, very cordial. Hi, Dr. Khaled. How are you?

cordial. Hi, Dr. Khaled. How are you? cordial. Hi, Dr. Khaled. How are you? Uh, did you submit any requests? Uh, did you submit any requests? Uh, did you submit any requests? We, you know, we here to serve you like We, you know, we here to serve you like We, you know, we here to serve you like we serve all Saudi citizen. It was it we serve all Saudi citizen. It was it we serve all Saudi citizen. It was it was a genuinely a very genuine nice call was a genuinely a very genuine nice call was a genuinely a very genuine nice call and I said I haven't you know submitting and I said I haven't you know submitting and I said I haven't you know submitting a request but a couple weeks ago I was a request but a couple weeks ago I was a request but a couple weeks ago I was having breakfast and you know Princess having breakfast and you know Princess having breakfast and you know Princess Reema was on the table next to me. I Reema was on the table next to me. I Reema was on the table next to me. I thought it was inappropriate to kind of thought it was inappropriate to kind of thought it was inappropriate to kind of interrupt her breakfast. So I I texted interrupt her breakfast. So I I texted interrupt her breakfast. So I I texted her that was the only for asking for a her that was the only for asking for a her that was the only for asking for a meeting. That was the only request I meeting. That was the only request I meeting. That was the only request I made. I said you know like if you need made. I said you know like if you need made. I said you know like if you need anything let me give you the address or anything let me give you the address or anything let me give you the address or the email and you can send you know the email and you can send you know the email and you can send you know write a letter and then I said look I write a letter and then I said look I write a letter and then I said look I jog by the embassy every day. Like I jog by the embassy every day. Like I jog by the embassy every day. Like I know the embassy inside out. you know, know the embassy inside out. you know, know the embassy inside out. you know, there's a lot of turnover in people, but there's a lot of turnover in people, but there's a lot of turnover in people, but how about if you're okay, I'll I'll how about if you're okay, I'll I'll how about if you're okay, I'll I'll write something and I'll leave it at the write something and I'll leave it at the write something and I'll leave it at the front desk for you to to to pick up. And front desk for you to to to pick up. And front desk for you to to to pick up. And by that, I wanted to also display that by that, I wanted to also display that by that, I wanted to also display that like at the end, I'm a Saudi citizen. like at the end, I'm a Saudi citizen. like at the end, I'm a Saudi citizen. Like, I love my country. Like, you know, Like, I love my country. Like, you know, Like, I love my country. Like, you know, let's let's solve this. All of this is let's let's solve this. All of this is let's let's solve this. All of this is needless. Um, needless. Um, needless. Um, >> solve this meaning situation. >> solve this meaning situation. >> solve this meaning situation. >> The family situation being held. >> The family situation being held. >> The family situation being held. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Or disappeared. >> Or disappeared. >> Or disappeared. >> Yeah. Or me being exiled, you know. Uh, >> Yeah. Or me being exiled, you know. Uh, >> Yeah. Or me being exiled, you know. Uh, like I was here on a Saudi scholarship.

like I was here on a Saudi scholarship. like I was here on a Saudi scholarship. I owe my country. I want to go back. I I owe my country. I want to go back. I I owe my country. I want to go back. I want to practice medicine in Saudi. That want to practice medicine in Saudi. That want to practice medicine in Saudi. That was always my dream. I invested time, was always my dream. I invested time, was always my dream. I invested time, money, effort, and so did my country and money, effort, and so did my country and money, effort, and so did my country and so did my family. So, uh, I wanted to so did my family. So, uh, I wanted to so did my family. So, uh, I wanted to go. Uh, my wife said, "There's no way go. Uh, my wife said, "There's no way go. Uh, my wife said, "There's no way you're going to to the embassy by you're going to to the embassy by you're going to to the embassy by yourself." Said, "Okay, you're welcome yourself." Said, "Okay, you're welcome yourself." Said, "Okay, you're welcome to come." So, we go, we stopped, knocked to come." So, we go, we stopped, knocked to come." So, we go, we stopped, knocked the door, security comes out, private the door, security comes out, private the door, security comes out, private security. Uh, they asked, "Oh, do you security. Uh, they asked, "Oh, do you security. Uh, they asked, "Oh, do you have your Saudi passport or national have your Saudi passport or national have your Saudi passport or national ID?" And I smiled because that has been ID?" And I smiled because that has been ID?" And I smiled because that has been long expired. I said, "Oh, I I forgot it long expired. I said, "Oh, I I forgot it long expired. I said, "Oh, I I forgot it at home." I was like, "Are you sure at home." I was like, "Are you sure at home." I was like, "Are you sure you're Saudi?" He said, "Yeah, I'm you're Saudi?" He said, "Yeah, I'm you're Saudi?" He said, "Yeah, I'm Saudi." Go in. Um there was this, Saudi." Go in. Um there was this, Saudi." Go in. Um there was this, [clears throat] you know, Saudi uh [clears throat] you know, Saudi uh [clears throat] you know, Saudi uh person at the front desk. Introduce person at the front desk. Introduce person at the front desk. Introduce myself. You You can tell that he was myself. You You can tell that he was myself. You You can tell that he was kind of shocked uh that I was there. I kind of shocked uh that I was there. I kind of shocked uh that I was there. I said, "I don't want to take a lot of said, "I don't want to take a lot of said, "I don't want to take a lot of your time. Here's a letter that, you your time. Here's a letter that, you your time. Here's a letter that, you know, that was requested and I'm here to know, that was requested and I'm here to know, that was requested and I'm here to deliver it." Um and he said, "You want deliver it." Um and he said, "You want deliver it." Um and he said, "You want to go upstairs and deliver it in to go upstairs and deliver it in to go upstairs and deliver it in person?" Like, "No, no, um I'm fine with person?" Like, "No, no, um I'm fine with person?" Like, "No, no, um I'm fine with you delivering it." And I left. And the you delivering it." And I left. And the you delivering it." And I left. And the essence of that letter was exactly what essence of that letter was exactly what essence of that letter was exactly what it said like I'm a Saudi physician. You it said like I'm a Saudi physician. You it said like I'm a Saudi physician. You know, I I I was fortunate to get know, I I I was fortunate to get know, I I I was fortunate to get government scholarship. I studied in government scholarship. I studied in government scholarship. I studied in public schools in Saudi. I my whole public schools in Saudi. I my whole public schools in Saudi. I my whole dream was to serve my country. I dream was to serve my country. I dream was to serve my country. I actively avoided any work in politics.

actively avoided any work in politics. actively avoided any work in politics. And And And it truly pains me to be in a to be in a it truly pains me to be in a to be in a it truly pains me to be in a to be in a position that is needless where I have position that is needless where I have position that is needless where I have to fight for my family and all my to fight for my family and all my to fight for my family and all my activism can be seen or misconring being activism can be seen or misconring being activism can be seen or misconring being anti-Saudi and whatever the grievances anti-Saudi and whatever the grievances anti-Saudi and whatever the grievances are they're easy to solve. are they're easy to solve. are they're easy to solve. um um um >> response. >> response. >> response. >> None. [laughter] >> None. [laughter] >> None. [laughter] >> None. >> None. >> None. >> But it was encouraging cuz that was in >> But it was encouraging cuz that was in >> But it was encouraging cuz that was in seven years at that point. That was the seven years at that point. That was the seven years at that point. That was the first time the first official reach out. first time the first official reach out. first time the first official reach out. And this is not a Saudi official in the And this is not a Saudi official in the And this is not a Saudi official in the DC embassy waking up on election day DC embassy waking up on election day DC embassy waking up on election day saying, "Oh, what can I do today? Let me saying, "Oh, what can I do today? Let me saying, "Oh, what can I do today? Let me reach out to like he got orders and reach out to like he got orders and reach out to like he got orders and behind those orders clearly was there's behind those orders clearly was there's behind those orders clearly was there's deliberation deliberation deliberation that the conclusion was, okay, let's that the conclusion was, okay, let's that the conclusion was, okay, let's open a channel." Uh I was hoping for open a channel." Uh I was hoping for open a channel." Uh I was hoping for more. my position was, you know, never more. my position was, you know, never more. my position was, you know, never changed. Uh again, I love my country. I changed. Uh again, I love my country. I changed. Uh again, I love my country. I love I love the Saudi people. I would love I love the Saudi people. I would love I love the Saudi people. I would love to have the chance to go and, you love to have the chance to go and, you love to have the chance to go and, you know, serve my country. Um know, serve my country. Um know, serve my country. Um unfortunately, uh I can't. unfortunately, uh I can't. unfortunately, uh I can't. >> It was 6 years after the murder of Jamal >> It was 6 years after the murder of Jamal >> It was 6 years after the murder of Jamal Hashoji. Hashoji. Hashoji. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Walking into a consulate in Istanbul. >> Walking into a consulate in Istanbul. >> Walking into a consulate in Istanbul. You're walking into the embassy in You're walking into the embassy in You're walking into the embassy in Washington. You had to be a little bit Washington. You had to be a little bit Washington. You had to be a little bit um reminded of that. um reminded of that. um reminded of that. >> Yes. And that's why my wife did not want >> Yes. And that's why my wife did not want >> Yes. And that's why my wife did not want me to go there uh alone. And it was, you me to go there uh alone. And it was, you me to go there uh alone. And it was, you know, funny because know, funny because know, funny because walking into the Saudi embassy, you walking into the Saudi embassy, you walking into the Saudi embassy, you smell the scent, you smell the cardamom smell the scent, you smell the cardamom smell the scent, you smell the cardamom from the Arabic coffee, you hear the from the Arabic coffee, you hear the from the Arabic coffee, you hear the adan. And as we left, my my wife was adan. And as we left, my my wife was adan. And as we left, my my wife was crying cuz she was nostalgic. And that crying cuz she was nostalgic. And that crying cuz she was nostalgic. And that was the closest thing we've been to our was the closest thing we've been to our was the closest thing we've been to our homeland since 2017. homeland since 2017. homeland since 2017. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, uh, yeah. >> So, uh, yeah. >> So, uh, yeah. >> And you you're still missing your your >> And you you're still missing your your >> And you you're still missing your your Sarah and Omar. Sarah and Omar. Sarah and Omar. >> Yes. Um, >> Yes. Um, >> Yes. Um, >> you don't know where they are. >> you don't know where they are. >> you don't know where they are. >> They were initially held at an >> They were initially held at an >> They were initially held at an unconventional detention site. They're unconventional detention site. They're unconventional detention site. They're now separated in in prison. Uh, but like now separated in in prison. Uh, but like now separated in in prison. Uh, but like nobody has been able to visit them. Not nobody has been able to visit them. Not nobody has been able to visit them. Not a single a single a single >> communicate with them. >> communicate with them. >> communicate with them. >> They've been allowed to make some >> They've been allowed to make some >> They've been allowed to make some sporadic calls uh every now and then uh sporadic calls uh every now and then uh sporadic calls uh every now and then uh where basically you can't take anything where basically you can't take anything where basically you can't take anything substantive out of these calls other substantive out of these calls other substantive out of these calls other than a proof of life.

than a proof of life. than a proof of life. >> And they've done nothing. >> And they've done nothing. >> And they've done nothing. >> They've done nothing. They're not >> They've done nothing. They're not >> They've done nothing. They're not political activists. They're not human political activists. They're not human political activists. They're not human rights activists. They were children. rights activists. They were children. rights activists. They were children. >> So they're just being held as chips. >> So they're just being held as chips. >> So they're just being held as chips. >> That's what the UN working group um >> That's what the UN working group um >> That's what the UN working group um clearly says in its report. clearly says in its report. clearly says in its report. >> As bargaining chips. >> As bargaining chips. >> As bargaining chips. >> Yes. As part of collective punishment uh >> Yes. As part of collective punishment uh >> Yes. As part of collective punishment uh and you know uh transnational repression and you know uh transnational repression and you know uh transnational repression against family members who are abroad, against family members who are abroad, against family members who are abroad, mainly my father. mainly my father. mainly my father. You don't want to be anti-Saudi, but you You don't want to be anti-Saudi, but you You don't want to be anti-Saudi, but you must have a deep reservoir of of uh must have a deep reservoir of of uh must have a deep reservoir of of uh anger at Muhammad bin Salman for running anger at Muhammad bin Salman for running anger at Muhammad bin Salman for running the country as he is. I I don't even the country as he is. I I don't even the country as he is. I I don't even honestly like honestly like honestly like they say anger, you know, hurts the they say anger, you know, hurts the they say anger, you know, hurts the people that hold on to it uh more than people that hold on to it uh more than people that hold on to it uh more than who you're angry at. And for me actually who you're angry at. And for me actually who you're angry at. And for me actually when I think of NBS, I think of when I think of NBS, I think of when I think of NBS, I think of disappointment, not anger. disappointment, not anger. disappointment, not anger. >> Can you forgive him? >> Can you forgive him? >> Can you forgive him? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, but that doesn't mean >> Oh, yeah. I mean, but that doesn't mean >> Oh, yeah. I mean, but that doesn't mean the scars will go away, you know, like, the scars will go away, you know, like, the scars will go away, you know, like, you know, at the end. And I don't know you know, at the end. And I don't know you know, at the end. And I don't know when my family ordeal is going to to to when my family ordeal is going to to to when my family ordeal is going to to to end. But I don't think anger end. But I don't think anger end. But I don't think anger or fear is the framework here. Uh I or fear is the framework here. Uh I or fear is the framework here. Uh I think responsibility think responsibility think responsibility and reconciliation should be the and reconciliation should be the and reconciliation should be the objective. I don't objective. I don't objective. I don't >> if he were here, >> if he were here, >> if he were here, >> what would you say to him?

>> what would you say to him? >> what would you say to him? >> I would say exactly what I wrote in this >> I would say exactly what I wrote in this >> I would say exactly what I wrote in this letter. I was like you and I've said letter. I was like you and I've said letter. I was like you and I've said that you have beef with your cousin, my that you have beef with your cousin, my that you have beef with your cousin, my dad, they're big boys. They can handle dad, they're big boys. They can handle dad, they're big boys. They can handle themselves. But like whatever you have themselves. But like whatever you have themselves. But like whatever you have with them, whatever g grievances that with them, whatever g grievances that with them, whatever g grievances that can be solved. Uh like me and my family can be solved. Uh like me and my family can be solved. Uh like me and my family should not suffer. Uh and all of this is should not suffer. Uh and all of this is should not suffer. Uh and all of this is needless. Uh there's a way where needless. Uh there's a way where needless. Uh there's a way where all of this can be reconciled and ended all of this can be reconciled and ended all of this can be reconciled and ended uh with basically within seconds. And if uh with basically within seconds. And if uh with basically within seconds. And if I were him, I guess I would say, if I I were him, I guess I would say, if I I were him, I guess I would say, if I were he, I would say back to you. Well, were he, I would say back to you. Well, were he, I would say back to you. Well, then get your dad to then get your dad to then get your dad to to talk to me. Get your dad to come back to talk to me. Get your dad to come back to talk to me. Get your dad to come back to Saudi Arabia and talk to me. to Saudi Arabia and talk to me. to Saudi Arabia and talk to me. >> I would say, well, getting back right >> I would say, well, getting back right >> I would say, well, getting back right now when your own innocent siblings are now when your own innocent siblings are now when your own innocent siblings are detained is probably suicidal. I think detained is probably suicidal. I think detained is probably suicidal. I think look ultimately in an ideal world all of look ultimately in an ideal world all of look ultimately in an ideal world all of my family would be able to go back to my family would be able to go back to my family would be able to go back to Saudi Arabia including my dad but that Saudi Arabia including my dad but that Saudi Arabia including my dad but that should be the end point not the starting should be the end point not the starting should be the end point not the starting point.

point. point. >> So a lot of people that I've spoken to >> So a lot of people that I've spoken to >> So a lot of people that I've spoken to have been in Saudi Arabia 20 30 years have been in Saudi Arabia 20 30 years have been in Saudi Arabia 20 30 years ago and they've gone back more recently ago and they've gone back more recently ago and they've gone back more recently and they say wow I mean this place is and they say wow I mean this place is and they say wow I mean this place is unrecognizable. There's a lot of good unrecognizable. There's a lot of good unrecognizable. There's a lot of good things happening there. things happening there. things happening there. >> Yes. Uh look, there is undeniable change >> Yes. Uh look, there is undeniable change >> Yes. Uh look, there is undeniable change uh happening in in Saudi Arabia uh happening in in Saudi Arabia uh happening in in Saudi Arabia economically, culturally, socially. Uh economically, culturally, socially. Uh economically, culturally, socially. Uh all of that is visible and all of that all of that is visible and all of that all of that is visible and all of that actually was designed to be seen. But actually was designed to be seen. But actually was designed to be seen. But what is visible should not distract us what is visible should not distract us what is visible should not distract us from what remains invisible and that is from what remains invisible and that is from what remains invisible and that is the continuing systemic repression, the the continuing systemic repression, the the continuing systemic repression, the ongoing human rights uh violation. The ongoing human rights uh violation. The ongoing human rights uh violation. The matter matter matter >> All right, go ahead. The matter here, >> All right, go ahead. The matter here, >> All right, go ahead. The matter here, the question here is not is Saudi reform the question here is not is Saudi reform the question here is not is Saudi reform real or not. It is because you can see real or not. It is because you can see real or not. It is because you can see some aspects of that. The question is some aspects of that. The question is some aspects of that. The question is the issue here is that reform remains the issue here is that reform remains the issue here is that reform remains discretionary. It's not institutional. discretionary. It's not institutional. discretionary. It's not institutional. It's not protected by law. It's not It's not protected by law. It's not It's not protected by law. It's not protected by due process. There are no protected by due process. There are no protected by due process. There are no check and balances. Uh there's nothing check and balances. Uh there's nothing check and balances. Uh there's nothing guaranteeing that it won't be guaranteeing that it won't be guaranteeing that it won't be reversible. Um and that is the major reversible. Um and that is the major reversible. Um and that is the major issue. Well, some people who um are issue. Well, some people who um are issue. Well, some people who um are impressed with this change say this is impressed with this change say this is impressed with this change say this is um you know, we can't let the death of um you know, we can't let the death of um you know, we can't let the death of one man in a in a consulate in um one man in a in a consulate in um one man in a in a consulate in um Istanbul get in the way of all this Istanbul get in the way of all this Istanbul get in the way of all this modernity that is being achieved in modernity that is being achieved in modernity that is being achieved in Saudi Arabia that that yeah there are Saudi Arabia that that yeah there are Saudi Arabia that that yeah there are people that are suffering in the country people that are suffering in the country people that are suffering in the country but there's a lot more and the b good uh

but there's a lot more and the b good uh but there's a lot more and the b good uh against the bad. So one death is against the bad. So one death is against the bad. So one death is emblematic of a lot of things. You're emblematic of a lot of things. You're emblematic of a lot of things. You're seeing a lot of visible positive change. seeing a lot of visible positive change. seeing a lot of visible positive change. There's a lot of invisible negative There's a lot of invisible negative There's a lot of invisible negative continuing oppression and the death of continuing oppression and the death of continuing oppression and the death of one man is just emblematic for that. one man is just emblematic for that. one man is just emblematic for that. There are a lot of things that remain to There are a lot of things that remain to There are a lot of things that remain to be unseen and that's why the visible be unseen and that's why the visible be unseen and that's why the visible changes should not be distracting us changes should not be distracting us changes should not be distracting us from what's going beneath the surface. from what's going beneath the surface. from what's going beneath the surface. Also, I think Also, I think Also, I think a lot of people both here and even in a lot of people both here and even in a lot of people both here and even in Saudi Arabia misunderstand the talk Saudi Arabia misunderstand the talk Saudi Arabia misunderstand the talk about human rights and the need for about human rights and the need for about human rights and the need for reform and accountability and oversight reform and accountability and oversight reform and accountability and oversight as some form of virtue signaling or as some form of virtue signaling or as some form of virtue signaling or western opposition. I don't see it this western opposition. I don't see it this western opposition. I don't see it this way. I actually see it as a fundamental way. I actually see it as a fundamental way. I actually see it as a fundamental prerequisite for durable and sustainable prerequisite for durable and sustainable prerequisite for durable and sustainable transformation and success for the transformation and success for the transformation and success for the kingdom. Like nobody's going to force kingdom. Like nobody's going to force kingdom. Like nobody's going to force the kingdom to do the right thing, but the kingdom to do the right thing, but the kingdom to do the right thing, but the kingdom should do the right thing the kingdom should do the right thing the kingdom should do the right thing because it is right for the kingdom and because it is right for the kingdom and because it is right for the kingdom and it will guarantee that all these changes it will guarantee that all these changes it will guarantee that all these changes are sustainable and they're not just are sustainable and they're not just are sustainable and they're not just hostage to the whim of one person that hostage to the whim of one person that hostage to the whim of one person that they are not protected by due process.

they are not protected by due process. they are not protected by due process. They're not protected by check and They're not protected by check and They're not protected by check and balances. It goes both way. as easy as balances. It goes both way. as easy as balances. It goes both way. as easy as the reforms that you've seen in terms of the reforms that you've seen in terms of the reforms that you've seen in terms of allowing women to drive or allowing women to drive or allowing women to drive or you know like the social liberalization you know like the social liberalization you know like the social liberalization the selective social liberalization the selective social liberalization the selective social liberalization there's nothing today that guarantees there's nothing today that guarantees there's nothing today that guarantees that they want to reversible if they that they want to reversible if they that they want to reversible if they were enacted by the order of one man were enacted by the order of one man were enacted by the order of one man they can be taken away unless you have they can be taken away unless you have they can be taken away unless you have these safeguards so it cuts both ways so for all these guys that are talking so for all these guys that are talking no actually if you truly care about a no actually if you truly care about a no actually if you truly care about a modern transformed modern transformed modern transformed Saudi state, then you should be Saudi state, then you should be Saudi state, then you should be advocating for all the things that we advocating for all the things that we advocating for all the things that we talk about, due process, uh, uh, talk about, due process, uh, uh, talk about, due process, uh, uh, judicial independence, because that's judicial independence, because that's judicial independence, because that's the only way you can have sustainable, the only way you can have sustainable, the only way you can have sustainable, durable change, positive