HH Addendum EP2 Rome Through Duncan's Eyes

it's hardcore history attention it's hardcore history attention I've been podcasting since like the I've been podcasting since like the I've been podcasting since like the Stone Age 2005 and way back then and for Stone Age 2005 and way back then and for Stone Age 2005 and way back then and for a long time afterwards I kind of a long time afterwards I kind of a long time afterwards I kind of considered all the other people who were considered all the other people who were considered all the other people who were podcasting as my colleagues we're not podcasting as my colleagues we're not podcasting as my colleagues we're not really in the sort of industry where you really in the sort of industry where you really in the sort of industry where you say yes my colleagues and we published say yes my colleagues and we published say yes my colleagues and we published papers or whatever the normal idea of papers or whatever the normal idea of papers or whatever the normal idea of what you might consider a colleague to what you might consider a colleague to what you might consider a colleague to be but it really felt the same right be but it really felt the same right be but it really felt the same right you're struggling through the same you're struggling through the same you're struggling through the same things learning the same things running things learning the same things running things learning the same things running into each other in places either in into each other in places either in into each other in places either in person or digitally these days of course person or digitally these days of course person or digitally these days of course it's a lot harder to call every it's a lot harder to call every it's a lot harder to call every podcaster your colleague when I think I podcaster your colleague when I think I podcaster your colleague when I think I saw a number recently that it's north of saw a number recently that it's north of saw a number recently that it's north of 500,000 podcasts or something but the 500,000 podcasts or something but the 500,000 podcasts or something but the person I'm about to talk to is person I'm about to talk to is person I'm about to talk to is undoubtedly my podcast colleague because undoubtedly my podcast colleague because undoubtedly my podcast colleague because well heck he's a history podcaster so well heck he's a history podcaster so well heck he's a history podcaster so right there we're in a pretty pretty right there we're in a pretty pretty right there we're in a pretty pretty small gene pool and he is one of the small gene pool and he is one of the small gene pool and he is one of the great podcasters ever his the history of great podcasters ever his the history of great podcasters ever his the history of Rome podcast is legendary in my mind and Rome podcast is legendary in my mind and Rome podcast is legendary in my mind and sort of makes him the audio the modern sort of makes him the audio the modern sort of makes him the audio the modern audio equivalent of Edward Gibbon where audio equivalent of Edward Gibbon where audio equivalent of Edward Gibbon where he he goes like the length and breadth he he goes like the length and breadth he he goes like the length and breadth of the entire Roman experience to the of the entire Roman experience to the of the entire Roman experience to the fall of the Western Empire it's hugely fall of the Western Empire it's hugely fall of the Western Empire it's hugely popular in one of those podcast that popular in one of those podcast that popular in one of those podcast that should be in some section of the Hall of should be in some section of the Hall of should be in some section of the Hall of Fame some day his other one is an Fame some day his other one is an Fame some day his other one is an amazingly ambitious project which he amazingly ambitious project which he amazingly ambitious project which he pulls off wonderfully and judging from pulls off wonderfully and judging from pulls off wonderfully and judging from the success everyone seems to like the success everyone seems to like the success everyone seems to like revolutions where he looks at different revolutions where he looks at different revolutions where he looks at different revolutions so it'll be very interesting

revolutions so it'll be very interesting revolutions so it'll be very interesting to talk to Mike Duncan today about his to talk to Mike Duncan today about his to talk to Mike Duncan today about his new book the storm before the storm and new book the storm before the storm and new book the storm before the storm and if you don't know enough about this his if you don't know enough about this his if you don't know enough about this his book will educate you wonderfully his book will educate you wonderfully his book will educate you wonderfully his show of course is available out there we show of course is available out there we show of course is available out there we did a the longest series we ever did was did a the longest series we ever did was did a the longest series we ever did was on this period of Roman history the on this period of Roman history the on this period of Roman history the death throes of the Republic so there's death throes of the Republic so there's death throes of the Republic so there's lots of stuff out there but I have a lots of stuff out there but I have a lots of stuff out there but I have a feeling most of you are already gonna feeling most of you are already gonna feeling most of you are already gonna know a ton of this stuff because Rome is know a ton of this stuff because Rome is know a ton of this stuff because Rome is wildly popular which is one of the first wildly popular which is one of the first wildly popular which is one of the first questions I ask my history podcast questions I ask my history podcast questions I ask my history podcast colleague the great Mike Duncan once upon a time I wanted to do a once upon a time I wanted to do a podcast on Cleopatra and I sat down podcast on Cleopatra and I sat down podcast on Cleopatra and I sat down decided it ordered a bunch of books and decided it ordered a bunch of books and decided it ordered a bunch of books and then tried to figure out where you then tried to figure out where you then tried to figure out where you should start the story of Cleopatra and should start the story of Cleopatra and should start the story of Cleopatra and every time I would go backwards I would every time I would go backwards I would every time I would go backwards I would find a domino connected to another find a domino connected to another find a domino connected to another Domino and another Domino long story Domino and another Domino long story Domino and another Domino long story short that show I wanted to do Cleopatra short that show I wanted to do Cleopatra short that show I wanted to do Cleopatra about or the show I wanted to do about about or the show I wanted to do about about or the show I wanted to do about Cleopatra turned into the longest series Cleopatra turned into the longest series Cleopatra turned into the longest series we've ever done because you have to go we've ever done because you have to go we've ever done because you have to go all the way back to a long way in Roman all the way back to a long way in Roman all the way back to a long way in Roman history for the dynamics to become you history for the dynamics to become you history for the dynamics to become you know even remotely clear and people tend know even remotely clear and people tend know even remotely clear and people tend to focus on you know this is the Titanic to focus on you know this is the Titanic to focus on you know this is the Titanic story the actual sinking of the ship but story the actual sinking of the ship but story the actual sinking of the ship but Mike your new book the storm before the Mike your new book the storm before the Mike your new book the storm before the storm is about the iceberg and the storm is about the iceberg and the storm is about the iceberg and the striking of the iceberg you know tell us striking of the iceberg you know tell us striking of the iceberg you know tell us a little bit about you know this story

a little bit about you know this story a little bit about you know this story that most people don't know as well as that most people don't know as well as that most people don't know as well as the actual sinking of the ship yeah the the actual sinking of the ship yeah the the actual sinking of the ship yeah the way that I put it you so my book is the way that I put it you so my book is the way that I put it you so my book is the storm before the storm the beginning of storm before the storm the beginning of storm before the storm the beginning of the end of the Roman Republic and it the end of the Roman Republic and it the end of the Roman Republic and it covers the period from 146 BC around covers the period from 146 BC around covers the period from 146 BC around there to about 78 BC which is the death there to about 78 BC which is the death there to about 78 BC which is the death of sulla of sulla of sulla and it covers the couple of generations and it covers the couple of generations and it covers the couple of generations before Julius Caesar comes along before before Julius Caesar comes along before before Julius Caesar comes along before Octavian comes along before Antony and Octavian comes along before Antony and Octavian comes along before Antony and Cleopatra are around to start looking as Cleopatra are around to start looking as Cleopatra are around to start looking as you say it the things that led up to the you say it the things that led up to the you say it the things that led up to the collapse of the Roman Republic rather collapse of the Roman Republic rather collapse of the Roman Republic rather than just jumping right into it and you than just jumping right into it and you than just jumping right into it and you say it's you know people like to focus say it's you know people like to focus say it's you know people like to focus on the sinking of the ship and I say on the sinking of the ship and I say on the sinking of the ship and I say that the jumping into Caesar is like that the jumping into Caesar is like that the jumping into Caesar is like jumping into a movie at the 3rd act at jumping into a movie at the 3rd act at jumping into a movie at the 3rd act at the beginning of the third act where you the beginning of the third act where you the beginning of the third act where you you know everything is you know loud and you know everything is you know loud and you know everything is you know loud and crazy and people are fighting with each crazy and people are fighting with each crazy and people are fighting with each other and obviously people are really other and obviously people are really other and obviously people are really passionately committed to this that or passionately committed to this that or passionately committed to this that or the other thing but you don't know how the other thing but you don't know how the other thing but you don't know how it got to this point you don't know what it got to this point you don't know what it got to this point you don't know what were the what were the problems that led were the what were the problems that led were the what were the problems that led the Republic to be so brittle that it the Republic to be so brittle that it the Republic to be so brittle that it could be blown apart a couple of could be blown apart a couple of could be blown apart a couple of generations later and that's what I hope generations later and that's what I hope generations later and that's what I hope that the book is able to explore and that the book is able to explore and that the book is able to explore and then when you read it and you have then when you read it and you have then when you read it and you have completed with it then you'll have a completed with it then you'll have a completed with it then you'll have a much richer understanding of why we why much richer understanding of why we why much richer understanding of why we why what what what with Caesar happens let's talk about why with Caesar happens let's talk about why with Caesar happens let's talk about why we even care what happens to Caesar I'm we even care what happens to Caesar I'm we even care what happens to Caesar I'm a little amazed at the not just modern a little amazed at the not just modern a little amazed at the not just modern but ongoing public interest and remember

but ongoing public interest and remember but ongoing public interest and remember a public that is generally not thought a public that is generally not thought a public that is generally not thought to be all that history knowledgeable or to be all that history knowledgeable or to be all that history knowledgeable or even care that much about it and yet we even care that much about it and yet we even care that much about it and yet we can continually publish books and make can continually publish books and make can continually publish books and make movies and have discussions that that movies and have discussions that that movies and have discussions that that draw comparisons to this Republic from draw comparisons to this Republic from draw comparisons to this Republic from more than 2,000 years ago what do you more than 2,000 years ago what do you more than 2,000 years ago what do you think accounts for the enduring interest think accounts for the enduring interest think accounts for the enduring interest on the part of even lay people to this on the part of even lay people to this on the part of even lay people to this place where if you think about it no one place where if you think about it no one place where if you think about it no one should even be this shouldn't be in the should even be this shouldn't be in the should even be this shouldn't be in the front of anyone's mind fifteen hundred front of anyone's mind fifteen hundred front of anyone's mind fifteen hundred two thousand years ago it's it's a good two thousand years ago it's it's a good two thousand years ago it's it's a good question question question I mean like for people like us you know I mean like for people like us you know I mean like for people like us you know it's just it's so inherently interesting it's just it's so inherently interesting it's just it's so inherently interesting that it's almost weird to step back and that it's almost weird to step back and that it's almost weird to step back and say like why would anybody be interested say like why would anybody be interested say like why would anybody be interested in Rome because Rome is at least to me in Rome because Rome is at least to me in Rome because Rome is at least to me so inherently interesting I think what so inherently interesting I think what so inherently interesting I think what it gets to is that people have it people it gets to is that people have it people it gets to is that people have it people know that Rome was this ancient powerful know that Rome was this ancient powerful know that Rome was this ancient powerful civilization and it almost is the civilization and it almost is the civilization and it almost is the epitome of what imperial power is what epitome of what imperial power is what epitome of what imperial power is what civilizational power is we know that it civilizational power is we know that it civilizational power is we know that it lasted for a thousand years or more if lasted for a thousand years or more if lasted for a thousand years or more if you include the Byzantines so I think you include the Byzantines so I think you include the Byzantines so I think it's I think Rome just is always gonna it's I think Rome just is always gonna it's I think Rome just is always gonna have a place in the collective have a place in the collective have a place in the collective imagination as you go okay what if imagination as you go okay what if imagination as you go okay what if you're at all interested in history at you're at all interested in history at you're at all interested in history at all let's go to sort of the big and all let's go to sort of the big and all let's go to sort of the big and important parts of history and you're important parts of history and you're important parts of history and you're always gonna then wind up in Rome and always gonna then wind up in Rome and always gonna then wind up in Rome and specifically where people are gonna wind specifically where people are gonna wind specifically where people are gonna wind up is that is that era between let's say

up is that is that era between let's say up is that is that era between let's say the arrival of Julius Caesar and like the arrival of Julius Caesar and like the arrival of Julius Caesar and like the death of Nero right the death of the the death of Nero right the death of the the death of Nero right the death of the Giulio Claudian dynasty that particular Giulio Claudian dynasty that particular Giulio Claudian dynasty that particular era of Roman history in part because era of Roman history in part because era of Roman history in part because it's so well documented and we know so it's so well documented and we know so it's so well documented and we know so much about it is always going to be the much about it is always going to be the much about it is always going to be the place where people go to if they become place where people go to if they become place where people go to if they become interested in Rome that's where they're interested in Rome that's where they're interested in Rome that's where they're gonna wind up and it's a lot the same gonna wind up and it's a lot the same gonna wind up and it's a lot the same way that I think that no matter what way that I think that no matter what way that I think that no matter what like the Napoleonic age is gonna be like the Napoleonic age is gonna be like the Napoleonic age is gonna be permanently something that people keep permanently something that people keep permanently something that people keep going back to and back to even 2,000 going back to and back to even 2,000 going back to and back to even 2,000 years later when you're like wow this is years later when you're like wow this is years later when you're like wow this is just like some obscure just like some obscure just like some obscure you know kind of temporary French Empire you know kind of temporary French Empire you know kind of temporary French Empire there there is there is something about there there is there is something about there there is there is something about the force of the personalities and the the force of the personalities and the the force of the personalities and the force of the political power that is force of the political power that is force of the political power that is being expressed that's always going to being expressed that's always going to being expressed that's always going to draw people's attention you know III see draw people's attention you know III see draw people's attention you know III see that with Napoleon just like I see that that with Napoleon just like I see that that with Napoleon just like I see that with a Hitler or or even a jenga's Khan with a Hitler or or even a jenga's Khan with a Hitler or or even a jenga's Khan but but to me the difference is the but but to me the difference is the but but to me the difference is the length of that you know it's instead of length of that you know it's instead of length of that you know it's instead of one supreme figure that that is searing one supreme figure that that is searing one supreme figure that that is searing across the pages of the history book and across the pages of the history book and across the pages of the history book and they're in innately interesting you have they're in innately interesting you have they're in innately interesting you have numerous figures I mean just going numerous figures I mean just going numerous figures I mean just going through your book it's one fascinating through your book it's one fascinating through your book it's one fascinating individual that seems to be almost I individual that seems to be almost I individual that seems to be almost I mean I mean when you think about what mean I mean when you think about what mean I mean when you think about what the quota of great men should be in any the quota of great men should be in any the quota of great men should be in any given civilization during any given time given civilization during any given time given civilization during any given time the period discussed in your book seems the period discussed in your book seems the period discussed in your book seems to be an era where Humanity in that to be an era where Humanity in that to be an era where Humanity in that place and that time is exceeding its place and that time is exceeding its place and that time is exceeding its normal quota of fascinating August human normal quota of fascinating August human normal quota of fascinating August human beings I would say so and it's always

beings I would say so and it's always beings I would say so and it's always been a bit surprising to me you know been a bit surprising to me you know been a bit surprising to me you know having gone through the history of Rome having gone through the history of Rome having gone through the history of Rome and you know gone through the entire and you know gone through the entire and you know gone through the entire history of Rome in pretty minut detail history of Rome in pretty minut detail history of Rome in pretty minut detail that that particular period between the that that particular period between the that that particular period between the grok I and then Marius and sulla was grok I and then Marius and sulla was grok I and then Marius and sulla was always was always a period that I wanted always was always a period that I wanted always was always a period that I wanted to come back to like III kind of had put to come back to like III kind of had put to come back to like III kind of had put a pin in it very early on and was like a pin in it very early on and was like a pin in it very early on and was like you know this is this is an era that's you know this is this is an era that's you know this is this is an era that's gonna be a lot where there's gonna be gonna be a lot where there's gonna be gonna be a lot where there's gonna be worth coming back to and to have nobody worth coming back to and to have nobody worth coming back to and to have nobody really have written the book that I really have written the book that I really have written the book that I wrote which is let's just focus on this wrote which is let's just focus on this wrote which is let's just focus on this 50 or 60 year period all on its own I 50 or 60 year period all on its own I 50 or 60 year period all on its own I won't make this the first couple of won't make this the first couple of won't make this the first couple of chapters in a larger book about the fall chapters in a larger book about the fall chapters in a larger book about the fall of the Republic I won't make it one of the Republic I won't make it one of the Republic I won't make it one chapter in a larger history about you chapter in a larger history about you chapter in a larger history about you know just Roman civilization but to know just Roman civilization but to know just Roman civilization but to really like hone in on this particular really like hone in on this particular really like hone in on this particular period you know I would always kind of I period you know I would always kind of I period you know I would always kind of I would watch the book lists with one eye would watch the book lists with one eye would watch the book lists with one eye like is somebody gonna finally discover like is somebody gonna finally discover like is somebody gonna finally discover that this is a great untapped like that this is a great untapped like that this is a great untapped like wealth of material and nobody nobody wealth of material and nobody nobody wealth of material and nobody nobody quite put it together so I was able to quite put it together so I was able to quite put it together so I was able to step in and and now I hope deliver a step in and and now I hope deliver a step in and and now I hope deliver a book that will explain why I think when book that will explain why I think when book that will explain why I think when people end the book they're gonna be people end the book they're gonna be people end the book they're gonna be like why hasn't this been covered in like why hasn't this been covered in like why hasn't this been covered in more detail I think that'll be one of more detail I think that'll be one of more detail I think that'll be one of the big questions coming out of it for the big questions coming out of it for the big questions coming out of it for people yeah people yeah people yeah love your subtitle the beginning of the love your subtitle the beginning of the love your subtitle the beginning of the end of the roman republic it sounds end of the roman republic it sounds end of the roman republic it sounds Churchillian but you know maybe could Churchillian but you know maybe could Churchillian but you know maybe could have called it also you know the era have called it also you know the era have called it also you know the era when things broke because that way that when things broke because that way that when things broke because that way that really is kind of what it was and you really is kind of what it was and you really is kind of what it was and you can see like you were talking about in can see like you were talking about in can see like you were talking about in the book they the Romans didn't have the book they the Romans didn't have the book they the Romans didn't have this written constitution they had sort

this written constitution they had sort this written constitution they had sort of a set of conduct rules that were just of a set of conduct rules that were just of a set of conduct rules that were just innately understood by everyone in innately understood by everyone in innately understood by everyone in customs and when they broke that it's customs and when they broke that it's customs and when they broke that it's like okay there's no written like okay there's no written like okay there's no written constitution so once someone violates constitution so once someone violates constitution so once someone violates the way we do things right the way of the way we do things right the way of the way we do things right the way of the elders all bets are off right it the elders all bets are off right it the elders all bets are off right it seemed that way where there was that seemed that way where there was that seemed that way where there was that there was this thing like but when Rome there was this thing like but when Rome there was this thing like but when Rome triumphs and what happens in 146 BC for triumphs and what happens in 146 BC for triumphs and what happens in 146 BC for people that aren't like caught up with people that aren't like caught up with people that aren't like caught up with this is that Rome conquers Carthage for this is that Rome conquers Carthage for this is that Rome conquers Carthage for the last time their great rival I mean the last time their great rival I mean the last time their great rival I mean Hannibal during the Second Punic War Hannibal during the Second Punic War Hannibal during the Second Punic War that's that's about 50 years or so in that's that's about 50 years or so in that's that's about 50 years or so in the past but they're they're great the past but they're they're great the past but they're they're great rivalry with Carthage is now over and rivalry with Carthage is now over and rivalry with Carthage is now over and Rome has emerged victorious they also Rome has emerged victorious they also Rome has emerged victorious they also decide to just outright conquer and decide to just outright conquer and decide to just outright conquer and annex Greece into the Roman state so at annex Greece into the Roman state so at annex Greece into the Roman state so at this point in 146 BC Rome is without this point in 146 BC Rome is without this point in 146 BC Rome is without question the strongest power in the question the strongest power in the question the strongest power in the Mediterranean world and nobody is going Mediterranean world and nobody is going Mediterranean world and nobody is going to be able to challenge them there is to be able to challenge them there is to be able to challenge them there is something this triumph actually opens up something this triumph actually opens up something this triumph actually opens up a whole host of new problems for the a whole host of new problems for the a whole host of new problems for the Republican for the leadership of the Republican for the leadership of the Republican for the leadership of the problem that they just sort of start to problem that they just sort of start to problem that they just sort of start to fail to address and fail to deal with fail to address and fail to deal with fail to address and fail to deal with and it creates a powerfully new like and it creates a powerfully new like and it creates a powerfully new like confrontational style of domestic confrontational style of domestic confrontational style of domestic politics that had never really existed politics that had never really existed politics that had never really existed before before before the Roman Senate and the Roman elites the Roman Senate and the Roman elites the Roman Senate and the Roman elites had always been pretty club' with each had always been pretty club' with each had always been pretty club' with each other they had always been like oh there other they had always been like oh there other they had always been like oh there are some you know will ultimately make are some you know will ultimately make are some you know will ultimately make compromises with each other or you know compromises with each other or you know compromises with each other or you know if we don't all agree on something we'll if we don't all agree on something we'll if we don't all agree on something we'll just we'll just put it to bed and what

just we'll just put it to bed and what just we'll just put it to bed and what happens after 146 is you start having happens after 146 is you start having happens after 146 is you start having these leaders start to break away and these leaders start to break away and these leaders start to break away and start to tap into new energies that are start to tap into new energies that are start to tap into new energies that are floating around out there floating around out there floating around out there and with this new confrontational style and with this new confrontational style and with this new confrontational style of Roman politics yeah people start of Roman politics yeah people start of Roman politics yeah people start abandoning those old unwritten norms and abandoning those old unwritten norms and abandoning those old unwritten norms and unspoken modes of behavior and once you unspoken modes of behavior and once you unspoken modes of behavior and once you start down that road I mean you can pry start down that road I mean you can pry start down that road I mean you can pry you can pull out of it what what you can pull out of it what what you can pull out of it what what happened to the Romans is that they were happened to the Romans is that they were happened to the Romans is that they were not able not able not able pull out of it and if you start going pull out of it and if you start going pull out of it and if you start going down this road you ultimately discover down this road you ultimately discover down this road you ultimately discover that even written laws even following that even written laws even following that even written laws even following written laws is merely a custom it's written laws is merely a custom it's written laws is merely a custom it's merely a norm there's no there's nothing merely a norm there's no there's nothing merely a norm there's no there's nothing about a piece of paper with laws written about a piece of paper with laws written about a piece of paper with laws written on it that compels me to do anything to on it that compels me to do anything to on it that compels me to do anything to follow that law I'm just simply I'm follow that law I'm just simply I'm follow that law I'm just simply I'm giving it power with my own because giving it power with my own because giving it power with my own because that's how we do things but if somebody that's how we do things but if somebody that's how we do things but if somebody say has a you know an army or a gun or a say has a you know an army or a gun or a say has a you know an army or a gun or a baseball bat you know that actually is baseball bat you know that actually is baseball bat you know that actually is the ultimate definer of power the ultimate definer of power the ultimate definer of power it's just brute force so once you start it's just brute force so once you start it's just brute force so once you start giving up on sort of what you would call giving up on sort of what you would call giving up on sort of what you would call o mine er unspoken rules you eventually o mine er unspoken rules you eventually o mine er unspoken rules you eventually will get to the point where everybody will get to the point where everybody will get to the point where everybody has to admit that only brute force is has to admit that only brute force is has to admit that only brute force is really what's at play you know I love really what's at play you know I love really what's at play you know I love that line whether it was really said or that line whether it was really said or that line whether it was really said or not that you know history doesn't repeat not that you know history doesn't repeat not that you know history doesn't repeat but it sometimes rhymes and I look at but it sometimes rhymes and I look at but it sometimes rhymes and I look at the Roman Republic I think like everyone the Roman Republic I think like everyone the Roman Republic I think like everyone does and you know it's hard not to see does and you know it's hard not to see does and you know it's hard not to see patterns and and similar dynamics and I patterns and and similar dynamics and I patterns and and similar dynamics and I think if for no other reason than think if for no other reason than think if for no other reason than because it's another commercial Republic

because it's another commercial Republic because it's another commercial Republic that's large and imperial and right that's large and imperial and right that's large and imperial and right there you're gonna have some things that there you're gonna have some things that there you're gonna have some things that look similar and we all understand that look similar and we all understand that look similar and we all understand that if you look a little beneath the surface if you look a little beneath the surface if you look a little beneath the surface there's a ton of things that are there's a ton of things that are there's a ton of things that are different different different I mean slavery outright slavery for I mean slavery outright slavery for I mean slavery outright slavery for example but you point out in your book example but you point out in your book example but you point out in your book and I thought it was interesting you and I thought it was interesting you and I thought it was interesting you were you were drawing comparisons to if were you were drawing comparisons to if were you were drawing comparisons to if the US and the Roman Republic are the US and the Roman Republic are the US and the Roman Republic are following a similar charted course for following a similar charted course for following a similar charted course for lack of a better word where would we be lack of a better word where would we be lack of a better word where would we be now in terms of where the Romans were now in terms of where the Romans were now in terms of where the Romans were can you talk a little about that cuz I can you talk a little about that cuz I can you talk a little about that cuz I thought that was I mean if you look at thought that was I mean if you look at thought that was I mean if you look at the Punic Wars as like the world wars the Punic Wars as like the world wars the Punic Wars as like the world wars and whatnot I think it's a fascinating and whatnot I think it's a fascinating and whatnot I think it's a fascinating way to come up to a conclusion saying way to come up to a conclusion saying way to come up to a conclusion saying oK we've done this we've done this we've oK we've done this we've done this we've oK we've done this we've done this we've done this we haven't done this yet so done this we haven't done this yet so done this we haven't done this yet so where do you put us in the book compared where do you put us in the book compared where do you put us in the book compared to Roman history in a similar place to Roman history in a similar place to Roman history in a similar place right so all all caveats aside that all right so all all caveats aside that all right so all all caveats aside that all caveat this is not actually the way that caveat this is not actually the way that caveat this is not actually the way that history works we're not like in some history works we're not like in some history works we're not like in some repeating that's right we're speculating repeating that's right we're speculating repeating that's right we're speculating wildly any response and absolute so wildly any response and absolute so wildly any response and absolute so that's what I do Mike welcome to my show that's what I do Mike welcome to my show that's what I do Mike welcome to my show [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] okay so let's say that the Roman Empire okay so let's say that the Roman Empire okay so let's say that the Roman Empire out there and there's like a thousand out there and there's like a thousand out there and there's like a thousand years worth of history and and we're years worth of history and and we're years worth of history and and we're sitting here in the United States or in sitting here in the United States or in sitting here in the United States or in the West generally at the beginning of the West generally at the beginning of the West generally at the beginning of the 21st century you want to say like the 21st century you want to say like the 21st century you want to say like well what what is there that we can look well what what is there that we can look well what what is there that we can look to in Roman history is is there a period to in Roman history is is there a period to in Roman history is is there a period in time that we can look to that is more in time that we can look to that is more in time that we can look to that is more analogous to our own situation than analogous to our own situation than analogous to our own situation than another and it's really it's a lot by another and it's really it's a lot by another and it's really it's a lot by process of elimination

process of elimination process of elimination where you know are we a brand-new little where you know are we a brand-new little where you know are we a brand-new little city-state that has just recently been city-state that has just recently been city-state that has just recently been colonized or founded by you know a group colonized or founded by you know a group colonized or founded by you know a group of dissidents and vagabonds and escaped of dissidents and vagabonds and escaped of dissidents and vagabonds and escaped slaves like know that that happened 400 slaves like know that that happened 400 slaves like know that that happened 400 years ago in our own history that would years ago in our own history that would years ago in our own history that would be you know the early days of the be you know the early days of the be you know the early days of the colonization of North America are we at colonization of North America are we at colonization of North America are we at a stage where a group of disgruntled a stage where a group of disgruntled a stage where a group of disgruntled aristocrats overthrows a king and aristocrats overthrows a king and aristocrats overthrows a king and establishes a new kingless Republic that establishes a new kingless Republic that establishes a new kingless Republic that is more or less an elite led oligarchy is more or less an elite led oligarchy is more or less an elite led oligarchy like no that would be if anything that's like no that would be if anything that's like no that would be if anything that's that's you know that's the founding that's you know that's the founding that's you know that's the founding fathers that's the American Revolution fathers that's the American Revolution fathers that's the American Revolution then what Rome does is is it emerges as then what Rome does is is it emerges as then what Rome does is is it emerges as a new republic in over the next couple a new republic in over the next couple a new republic in over the next couple of hundred years it starts to expand of hundred years it starts to expand of hundred years it starts to expand slowly across Italy in a series of in a slowly across Italy in a series of in a slowly across Italy in a series of in a series of Wars they're collectively series of Wars they're collectively series of Wars they're collectively dubbed the Samnite wars that wind up dubbed the Samnite wars that wind up dubbed the Samnite wars that wind up with Rome being the most dominant power with Rome being the most dominant power with Rome being the most dominant power in the Italian peninsula on the Italian in the Italian peninsula on the Italian in the Italian peninsula on the Italian peninsula so is the United States a peninsula so is the United States a peninsula so is the United States a recently emerged regional power I again recently emerged regional power I again recently emerged regional power I again I don't think that anybody would I don't think that anybody would I don't think that anybody would describe the United States as a recently describe the United States as a recently describe the United States as a recently emerged regional power and all of that emerged regional power and all of that emerged regional power and all of that probably corresponds to you know our probably corresponds to you know our probably corresponds to you know our slow and steady conquest of North slow and steady conquest of North slow and steady conquest of North America and everything that we did to America and everything that we did to America and everything that we did to the American Indians battling with the American Indians battling with the American Indians battling with Mexico and taking their the entire north Mexico and taking their the entire north Mexico and taking their the entire north half of their country and then you even half of their country and then you even half of their country and then you even get later on and you say well after that get later on and you say well after that get later on and you say well after that Rome goes to war with Carthage goes to Rome goes to war with Carthage goes to Rome goes to war with Carthage goes to war with Greece goes to war in Spain and war with Greece goes to war in Spain and war with Greece goes to war in Spain and they emerge as this dominant what you they emerge as this dominant what you they emerge as this dominant what you might call a global power at least in

might call a global power at least in might call a global power at least in the context of the Mediterranean and the context of the Mediterranean and the context of the Mediterranean and again the United States isn't even there again the United States isn't even there again the United States isn't even there because we did all of that we are one of because we did all of that we are one of because we did all of that we are one of the acknowledged great powers and the acknowledged great powers and the acknowledged great powers and especially after the Cold War I mean in especially after the Cold War I mean in especially after the Cold War I mean in the 1990s the 1990s the 1990s you know we're describing the United you know we're describing the United you know we're describing the United States as a hyper power almost now I States as a hyper power almost now I States as a hyper power almost now I think that's been tempered quite a bit think that's been tempered quite a bit think that's been tempered quite a bit in the last few years but in the last few years but in the last few years but certainly we're not finding our footing certainly we're not finding our footing certainly we're not finding our footing for the first time as a global power for the first time as a global power for the first time as a global power we've been dealing with those issues you we've been dealing with those issues you we've been dealing with those issues you know since the end of World War two and know since the end of World War two and know since the end of World War two and all through the Cold War so then you all through the Cold War so then you all through the Cold War so then you push for it a little bit more and you push for it a little bit more and you push for it a little bit more and you say okay well has the Republic you know say okay well has the Republic you know say okay well has the Republic you know have we collapsed into a you know a have we collapsed into a you know a have we collapsed into a you know a generations-long civil war where a generations-long civil war where a generations-long civil war where a warlord has in effect emerged victorious warlord has in effect emerged victorious warlord has in effect emerged victorious from and set himself up as a dictator no from and set himself up as a dictator no from and set himself up as a dictator no that hasn't happened yet so if we that hasn't happened yet so if we that hasn't happened yet so if we haven't gotten to that point yet if the haven't gotten to that point yet if the haven't gotten to that point yet if the Republic has not yet collapsed and I Republic has not yet collapsed and I Republic has not yet collapsed and I certainly don't believe that the certainly don't believe that the certainly don't believe that the Republic has collapsed then you say okay Republic has collapsed then you say okay Republic has collapsed then you say okay well maybe the United States is kind of well maybe the United States is kind of well maybe the United States is kind of now roughly in this same setting where now roughly in this same setting where now roughly in this same setting where after Rome had emerged as a global power after Rome had emerged as a global power after Rome had emerged as a global power but before the Republic collapsed let's but before the Republic collapsed let's but before the Republic collapsed let's let's take a look at this era it's the let's take a look at this era it's the let's take a look at this era it's the beginning of the end of the Republic beginning of the end of the Republic beginning of the end of the Republic which is right after this period 146 BC which is right after this period 146 BC which is right after this period 146 BC which as we said earlier in the show which as we said earlier in the show which as we said earlier in the show very earlier in this interview was it's very earlier in this interview was it's very earlier in this interview was it's already a period that is like inherently already a period that is like inherently already a period that is like inherently fascinating in its own right and as it fascinating in its own right and as it fascinating in its own right and as it turns out I think that they were dealing turns out I think that they were dealing turns out I think that they were dealing with a number of issues that you could with a number of issues that you could with a number of issues that you could say the United States is dealing with say the United States is dealing with say the United States is dealing with right now and so it's worth going right now and so it's worth going right now and so it's worth going through what the Romans went through and through what the Romans went through and through what the Romans went through and how they responded to it and maybe it

how they responded to it and maybe it how they responded to it and maybe it could maybe could influence how we could maybe could influence how we could maybe could influence how we decide to deal with our own problems decide to deal with our own problems decide to deal with our own problems today I was playing a silly game while I today I was playing a silly game while I today I was playing a silly game while I was really you know reading your book is was really you know reading your book is was really you know reading your book is to remind me of a bunch of things that I to remind me of a bunch of things that I to remind me of a bunch of things that I haven't I haven't looked at in a while haven't I haven't looked at in a while haven't I haven't looked at in a while and and the battles over public land and and and the battles over public land and and and the battles over public land and the distribution of land to veterans and the distribution of land to veterans and the distribution of land to veterans and all that stuff and the problem that the all that stuff and the problem that the all that stuff and the problem that the Romans were having keeping armies in the Romans were having keeping armies in the Romans were having keeping armies in the field when they were essentially you field when they were essentially you field when they were essentially you know conscripts is not really the right know conscripts is not really the right know conscripts is not really the right word but farmer armies that had to go word but farmer armies that had to go word but farmer armies that had to go home and tend to their home we're now on home and tend to their home we're now on home and tend to their home we're now on long service a thousand miles away from long service a thousand miles away from long service a thousand miles away from home and the farms going to heck and how home and the farms going to heck and how home and the farms going to heck and how long can you maintain and I thought you long can you maintain and I thought you long can you maintain and I thought you know if we tried to run our current know if we tried to run our current know if we tried to run our current foreign policy in the United States with foreign policy in the United States with foreign policy in the United States with a military that was operating with the a military that was operating with the a military that was operating with the draft situation that we had say in the draft situation that we had say in the draft situation that we had say in the 1950s I don't know if we could do it how 1950s I don't know if we could do it how 1950s I don't know if we could do it how much does the dynamic of having you know much does the dynamic of having you know much does the dynamic of having you know a bunch of veterans coming home from a bunch of veterans coming home from a bunch of veterans coming home from these wars and having you know real these wars and having you know real these wars and having you know real gripes about the the situation that they gripes about the the situation that they gripes about the the situation that they find them find them find them selves in the fact that they might have selves in the fact that they might have selves in the fact that they might have to go back in service the fact that to go back in service the fact that to go back in service the fact that their homes are falling apart while their homes are falling apart while their homes are falling apart while they're gone they're gone they're gone talk to her talk a little about that talk to her talk a little about that talk to her talk a little about that dynamic reminds me a little like the fry dynamic reminds me a little like the fry dynamic reminds me a little like the fry core in Germany or the the bonus core in Germany or the the bonus core in Germany or the the bonus marchers in our own history I mean a marchers in our own history I mean a marchers in our own history I mean a bunch of long service military veterans bunch of long service military veterans bunch of long service military veterans angry with nothing to do angry with nothing to do angry with nothing to do it sounds like a recipe for political it sounds like a recipe for political it sounds like a recipe for political change we'll just say yeah I would I change we'll just say yeah I would I change we'll just say yeah I would I would say so and what what is happening would say so and what what is happening would say so and what what is happening is it's one of these situations where

is it's one of these situations where is it's one of these situations where again the the Romans are had been more again the the Romans are had been more again the the Romans are had been more or less running what you might call a or less running what you might call a or less running what you might call a glorified militia where you were you glorified militia where you were you glorified militia where you were you were you would enter into the service were you would enter into the service were you would enter into the service you would actually if harvest time came you would actually if harvest time came you would actually if harvest time came and everybody was still fighting each and everybody was still fighting each and everybody was still fighting each other like both sides would quit the other like both sides would quit the other like both sides would quit the field and everybody would go home and field and everybody would go home and field and everybody would go home and harvest their fields and these imperial harvest their fields and these imperial harvest their fields and these imperial wars of expansion that Rome got caught wars of expansion that Rome got caught wars of expansion that Rome got caught in yes starts to take the poor the in yes starts to take the poor the in yes starts to take the poor the lower-class citizens away from their lower-class citizens away from their lower-class citizens away from their farms away from their families for farms away from their families for farms away from their families for longer and longer periods of time and so longer and longer periods of time and so longer and longer periods of time and so this period of triumph is for the for this period of triumph is for the for this period of triumph is for the for the Roman state for the Republic itself the Roman state for the Republic itself the Roman state for the Republic itself as an entity the the Senate and the as an entity the the Senate and the as an entity the the Senate and the people of Rome turns out to be fairly people of Rome turns out to be fairly people of Rome turns out to be fairly economically disastrous for a lot of economically disastrous for a lot of economically disastrous for a lot of these lower-class Roman citizens there these lower-class Roman citizens there these lower-class Roman citizens there they're gonna start to lose their farms they're gonna start to lose their farms they're gonna start to lose their farms they're gonna start to get bought out by they're gonna start to get bought out by they're gonna start to get bought out by wealthy neighbors because you take you wealthy neighbors because you take you wealthy neighbors because you take you know you'd rather take some money and know you'd rather take some money and know you'd rather take some money and get out while you can then watch it all get out while you can then watch it all get out while you can then watch it all go to ruin so yeah it really does and go to ruin so yeah it really does and go to ruin so yeah it really does and the bonus the bonus marchers are a good the bonus the bonus marchers are a good the bonus the bonus marchers are a good example of this which happened right example of this which happened right example of this which happened right before you know right right in the midst before you know right right in the midst before you know right right in the midst of the Great Depression here in the of the Great Depression here in the of the Great Depression here in the United States is that they they had United States is that they they had United States is that they they had these grievances they had these these grievances they had these these grievances they had these legitimate grievances their families had legitimate grievances their families had legitimate grievances their families had had these farms for you know in had these farms for you know in had these farms for you know in perpetuity you know going back into the perpetuity you know going back into the perpetuity you know going back into the misty IRA's of the early republic or misty IRA's of the early republic or misty IRA's of the early republic or even the kingdom days and they've even the kingdom days and they've even the kingdom days and they've they're now starting to lose all of that they're now starting to lose all of that they're now starting to lose all of that and their traditional ways of life are and their traditional ways of life are and their traditional ways of life are being upset and they are feeling that being upset and they are feeling that being upset and they are feeling that the Senate and the government of Rome is

the Senate and the government of Rome is the Senate and the government of Rome is a they are consolidating all of this a they are consolidating all of this a they are consolidating all of this massive imperial wealth but none of it massive imperial wealth but none of it massive imperial wealth but none of it seems to be trickling down to the poor seems to be trickling down to the poor seems to be trickling down to the poor farmers to the poorer citizens so you farmers to the poorer citizens so you farmers to the poorer citizens so you have you have a situation where these have you have a situation where these have you have a situation where these new leaders as I was new leaders as I was new leaders as I was you can you can start to break out and you can you can start to break out and you can you can start to break out and say hey I as a noble leader you can say say hey I as a noble leader you can say say hey I as a noble leader you can say hey I think that there's an opportunity hey I think that there's an opportunity hey I think that there's an opportunity for me here to get enormous political for me here to get enormous political for me here to get enormous political influence and political power and influence and political power and influence and political power and political popularity by promising these political popularity by promising these political popularity by promising these people who have all these grievances I'm people who have all these grievances I'm people who have all these grievances I'm gonna I'm gonna solve your problems gonna I'm gonna solve your problems gonna I'm gonna solve your problems we're gonna go to the rich we're gonna we're gonna go to the rich we're gonna we're gonna go to the rich we're gonna take their land by basically by force take their land by basically by force take their land by basically by force we're gonna chop it up and we're gonna we're gonna chop it up and we're gonna we're gonna chop it up and we're gonna redistribute it to all of you this is an redistribute it to all of you this is an redistribute it to all of you this is an incredibly popular thing that can be incredibly popular thing that can be incredibly popular thing that can be done and this opens the new like popular done and this opens the new like popular done and this opens the new like popular a style of Roman politics which is a style of Roman politics which is a style of Roman politics which is instead of this elite noble consensus instead of this elite noble consensus instead of this elite noble consensus being the driver of your policies it's being the driver of your policies it's being the driver of your policies it's directly appealing to the rural peasants directly appealing to the rural peasants directly appealing to the rural peasants in the urban plebs who are feeling in the urban plebs who are feeling in the urban plebs who are feeling negative effects from Rome's Imperial negative effects from Rome's Imperial negative effects from Rome's Imperial triumphs rather than a bunch of positive triumphs rather than a bunch of positive triumphs rather than a bunch of positive effects well and it brings up the effects well and it brings up the effects well and it brings up the age-old question I'd like to get your age-old question I'd like to get your age-old question I'd like to get your opinion on it as a guy who's talked opinion on it as a guy who's talked opinion on it as a guy who's talked about Rome as much or more than anyone I about Rome as much or more than anyone I about Rome as much or more than anyone I can think of the idea that that these can think of the idea that that these can think of the idea that that these people who appealed to the popular crowd people who appealed to the popular crowd people who appealed to the popular crowd were they really was that was that a were they really was that was that a were they really was that was that a real position or was that you know they real position or was that you know they real position or was that you know they just had latched on to a political a win just had latched on to a political a win just had latched on to a political a win they put their finger in the wind find they put their finger in the wind find they put their finger in the wind find out oh this cause of giving land to the

out oh this cause of giving land to the out oh this cause of giving land to the veterans is popular so I'll do that it veterans is popular so I'll do that it veterans is popular so I'll do that it seems to me that that if I look at it as seems to me that that if I look at it as seems to me that that if I look at it as a novice some of these reformers look a novice some of these reformers look a novice some of these reformers look more real than others um do you have a more real than others um do you have a more real than others um do you have a feeling I mean like uh Caius and feeling I mean like uh Caius and feeling I mean like uh Caius and Tiberius Crocky Tiberius Crocky Tiberius Crocky I mean to me those seem people always I mean to me those seem people always I mean to me those seem people always like to compare them to the Kennedy like to compare them to the Kennedy like to compare them to the Kennedy brothers that that's ridiculous but at brothers that that's ridiculous but at brothers that that's ridiculous but at the same time you have two brothers both the same time you have two brothers both the same time you have two brothers both assassinated both that a lot of people assassinated both that a lot of people assassinated both that a lot of people were able to romantically put a lot of were able to romantically put a lot of were able to romantically put a lot of hopes in and lionize afterwards I mean hopes in and lionize afterwards I mean hopes in and lionize afterwards I mean do you look at those guys as um as do you look at those guys as um as do you look at those guys as um as sincere reformers or are they all sincere reformers or are they all sincere reformers or are they all charlatans work in a political angle charlatans work in a political angle charlatans work in a political angle well or none of them know I know I have well or none of them know I know I have well or none of them know I know I have an answer to this because now I've now an answer to this because now I've now an answer to this because now I've now I've gone through it and this is as you I've gone through it and this is as you I've gone through it and this is as you point out this is one of like the great point out this is one of like the great point out this is one of like the great debates in Roman history generally and debates in Roman history generally and debates in Roman history generally and also just like world history in general also just like world history in general also just like world history in general is you know are these various popular is you know are these various popular is you know are these various popular reformers are they merely cynical reformers are they merely cynical reformers are they merely cynical demagogues or are they genuinely demagogues or are they genuinely demagogues or are they genuinely did in reforming the state and certainly did in reforming the state and certainly did in reforming the state and certainly even while the Drakh I were still alive even while the Drakh I were still alive even while the Drakh I were still alive they're there their allies were saying they're there their allies were saying they're there their allies were saying oh they're you know they're driven by oh they're you know they're driven by oh they're you know they're driven by lofty ideals and and a genuine regard lofty ideals and and a genuine regard lofty ideals and and a genuine regard for the people and their enemies are for the people and their enemies are for the people and their enemies are producing pamphlets to say oh no they're producing pamphlets to say oh no they're producing pamphlets to say oh no they're they're trying to make themselves the they're trying to make themselves the they're trying to make themselves the new kings of Rome so where I do come new kings of Rome so where I do come new kings of Rome so where I do come down on it about the grok I in down on it about the grok I in down on it about the grok I in particular that I think that they were particular that I think that they were particular that I think that they were interested in genuine reform there was interested in genuine reform there was interested in genuine reform there was no like altruism at work here I mean

no like altruism at work here I mean no like altruism at work here I mean we're talking about like high Roman we're talking about like high Roman we're talking about like high Roman politics there's not a lot of altruism politics there's not a lot of altruism politics there's not a lot of altruism going around out there but I think that going around out there but I think that going around out there but I think that they saw simultaneously that a path to they saw simultaneously that a path to they saw simultaneously that a path to personal power which is what they were personal power which is what they were personal power which is what they were after they were incredibly ambitious after they were incredibly ambitious after they were incredibly ambitious could simultaneously solve a lot of the could simultaneously solve a lot of the could simultaneously solve a lot of the problems that Rome was now dealing with problems that Rome was now dealing with problems that Rome was now dealing with as it transitioned from being merely an as it transitioned from being merely an as it transitioned from being merely an Italian city state one one among many to Italian city state one one among many to Italian city state one one among many to like the rulers of the entire like the rulers of the entire like the rulers of the entire Mediterranean world but they existed on Mediterranean world but they existed on Mediterranean world but they existed on a spectrum where this same you know the a spectrum where this same you know the a spectrum where this same you know the same milieu of papillary energy coming same milieu of papillary energy coming same milieu of papillary energy coming out of the rural peasants or the urban out of the rural peasants or the urban out of the rural peasants or the urban plebs even in the lower equestrian plebs even in the lower equestrian plebs even in the lower equestrian classes that have a lot of wealth but classes that have a lot of wealth but classes that have a lot of wealth but don't have a lot of input politically don't have a lot of input politically don't have a lot of input politically those can be harnessed by people like those can be harnessed by people like those can be harnessed by people like the grok I and they can also be the grok I and they can also be the grok I and they can also be harnessed by cynical demagogues who yes harnessed by cynical demagogues who yes harnessed by cynical demagogues who yes are just there to say eh you're angry I are just there to say eh you're angry I are just there to say eh you're angry I know that you're angry I'm gonna help know that you're angry I'm gonna help know that you're angry I'm gonna help you channel that anger and I'm gonna you channel that anger and I'm gonna you channel that anger and I'm gonna tell you who's to blame for all of your tell you who's to blame for all of your tell you who's to blame for all of your problems and and then I'm gonna point problems and and then I'm gonna point problems and and then I'm gonna point you at the people who I'm telling you you at the people who I'm telling you you at the people who I'm telling you are to blame for it and Oh wouldn't you are to blame for it and Oh wouldn't you are to blame for it and Oh wouldn't you know it the people who are to blame for know it the people who are to blame for know it the people who are to blame for it are my personal enemies so you can it are my personal enemies so you can it are my personal enemies so you can use that same sort of it becomes it use that same sort of it becomes it use that same sort of it becomes it becomes quite a revolutionary energy you becomes quite a revolutionary energy you becomes quite a revolutionary energy you can start to use that and manipulate it can start to use that and manipulate it can start to use that and manipulate it so I think it's never fair to say that so I think it's never fair to say that so I think it's never fair to say that all of them are sincere reformers and or all of them are sincere reformers and or all of them are sincere reformers and or all of them are cynical demagogues it's all of them are cynical demagogues it's all of them are cynical demagogues it's it's quite a mix of the two and people it's quite a mix of the two and people it's quite a mix of the two and people are gonna land on a spectrum and people

are gonna land on a spectrum and people are gonna land on a spectrum and people say you know people bring up the Kennedy say you know people bring up the Kennedy say you know people bring up the Kennedy brothers for the grok I which doesn't brothers for the grok I which doesn't brothers for the grok I which doesn't really hold a lot of water but if there really hold a lot of water but if there really hold a lot of water but if there is anybody in American is anybody in American is anybody in American who does look like the croc I think it's who does look like the croc I think it's who does look like the croc I think it's the Roosevelts where what Theodore the Roosevelts where what Theodore the Roosevelts where what Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt and Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt and Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt and that the the progressive reforms that that the the progressive reforms that that the the progressive reforms that they were making both of them were they were making both of them were they were making both of them were incredibly ambitious both of them wanted incredibly ambitious both of them wanted incredibly ambitious both of them wanted to be President both of them kind of to be President both of them kind of to be President both of them kind of wanted to be President forever and they wanted to be President forever and they wanted to be President forever and they were called traitors to their class yeah were called traitors to their class yeah were called traitors to their class yeah and they were of course they were and they were of course they were and they were of course they were absolutely and so they're very similar absolutely and so they're very similar absolutely and so they're very similar to the croc I in that way that they were to the croc I in that way that they were to the croc I in that way that they were you know inner inner circle nobility and you know inner inner circle nobility and you know inner inner circle nobility and they're using all of their power and they're using all of their power and they're using all of their power and wealth and influence to really disrupt wealth and influence to really disrupt wealth and influence to really disrupt what the elites have going for them so I what the elites have going for them so I what the elites have going for them so I think if anybody is out there in think if anybody is out there in think if anybody is out there in American history that does look like the American history that does look like the American history that does look like the croc eye it's probably the Roosevelt croc eye it's probably the Roosevelt croc eye it's probably the Roosevelt well I'm enjoying the analogy comparison well I'm enjoying the analogy comparison well I'm enjoying the analogy comparison too much to stop now so maybe you can too much to stop now so maybe you can too much to stop now so maybe you can give me have you ever thought about some give me have you ever thought about some give me have you ever thought about some of these other figures in your book and of these other figures in your book and of these other figures in your book and thought about American examples I mean I thought about American examples I mean I thought about American examples I mean I can look at like a Huey Long for example can look at like a Huey Long for example can look at like a Huey Long for example and see someone that maybe would have and see someone that maybe would have and see someone that maybe would have fit back into the Roman things I fit back into the Roman things I fit back into the Roman things I remember you know it was at Manchester's remember you know it was at Manchester's remember you know it was at Manchester's book I MacArthur an Americans Caesar I book I MacArthur an Americans Caesar I book I MacArthur an Americans Caesar I mean there's always comparisons you know mean there's always comparisons you know mean there's always comparisons you know when you look at the solos and the when you look at the solos and the when you look at the solos and the Maurya TSA's and Cato the Elder and all Maurya TSA's and Cato the Elder and all Maurya TSA's and Cato the Elder and all those folks do you have any analogies those folks do you have any analogies those folks do you have any analogies that you often think of when you think that you often think of when you think that you often think of when you think of some of these major figures well not of some of these major figures well not of some of these major figures well not to you know not to you know rain on to you know not to you know rain on to you know not to you know rain on anybody's parade but once you get once anybody's parade but once you get once anybody's parade but once you get once you get onto that like granular level you get onto that like granular level you get onto that like granular level like like who is you know who would like like who is you know who would like like who is you know who would drusus be it does start to get harder to

drusus be it does start to get harder to drusus be it does start to get harder to pin people down like was MacArthur was pin people down like was MacArthur was pin people down like was MacArthur was MacArthur and American Caesar I don't MacArthur and American Caesar I don't MacArthur and American Caesar I don't know but it seems like probably a good know but it seems like probably a good know but it seems like probably a good thing that Truman fired him I think it's thing that Truman fired him I think it's thing that Truman fired him I think it's an insult to Caesar myself but I'm an insult to Caesar myself but I'm an insult to Caesar myself but I'm biased yeah okay yeah I would say so I biased yeah okay yeah I would say so I biased yeah okay yeah I would say so I mean like yeah of all the people that mean like yeah of all the people that mean like yeah of all the people that I've ever gone through that you can I've ever gone through that you can I've ever gone through that you can compare to Julius Caesar I mean like its compare to Julius Caesar I mean like its compare to Julius Caesar I mean like its Napoleon that's who I know exactly yeah Napoleon that's who I know exactly yeah Napoleon that's who I know exactly yeah nobody else really like measures up to nobody else really like measures up to nobody else really like measures up to that particular class of you know having that particular class of you know having that particular class of you know having the totality of like I'm I can be Jenna the totality of like I'm I can be Jenna the totality of like I'm I can be Jenna Seidel and also like reformed the metric Seidel and also like reformed the metric Seidel and also like reformed the metric system and I'm a genius yes so if I system and I'm a genius yes so if I system and I'm a genius yes so if I successfully dodged the question yes I successfully dodged the question yes I successfully dodged the question yes I think so think so think so I think well done so so okay so then I think well done so so okay so then I think well done so so okay so then let's talk then a little bit about the let's talk then a little bit about the let's talk then a little bit about the dynamics here because you know it's dynamics here because you know it's dynamics here because you know it's funny because when you look at the funny because when you look at the funny because when you look at the Romans Romans Romans it seems to be the wonderful unless you it seems to be the wonderful unless you it seems to be the wonderful unless you want to go to the Greeks but it's the want to go to the Greeks but it's the want to go to the Greeks but it's the wonderful example of the class divisions wonderful example of the class divisions wonderful example of the class divisions and then the problems inherent with with and then the problems inherent with with and then the problems inherent with with class warfare and sharing of power I class warfare and sharing of power I class warfare and sharing of power I mean if you wanted to describe I mean mean if you wanted to describe I mean mean if you wanted to describe I mean we're talking about the iceberg that we're talking about the iceberg that we're talking about the iceberg that sinks the Titanic here and we can talk sinks the Titanic here and we can talk sinks the Titanic here and we can talk about rules shifting and warlords and about rules shifting and warlords and about rules shifting and warlords and everything but but what was it in it everything but but what was it in it everything but but what was it in it that shifted in terms of a public being that shifted in terms of a public being that shifted in terms of a public being willing to accept senatorial control by willing to accept senatorial control by willing to accept senatorial control by as you pointed out in the book a really as you pointed out in the book a really as you pointed out in the book a really small number of people in a fundamental small number of people in a fundamental small number of people in a fundamental sense and and and be able to push I mean sense and and and be able to push I mean sense and and and be able to push I mean the the Tribune of the plebs was one the the Tribune of the plebs was one the the Tribune of the plebs was one systemic tool that was introduced to

systemic tool that was introduced to systemic tool that was introduced to help balance out those powers could you help balance out those powers could you help balance out those powers could you say that that whole era between Tiberius say that that whole era between Tiberius say that that whole era between Tiberius Gracchus and maybe Caesar is an example Gracchus and maybe Caesar is an example Gracchus and maybe Caesar is an example of class warfare sort of playing out I of class warfare sort of playing out I of class warfare sort of playing out I mean how much of a role would you give mean how much of a role would you give mean how much of a role would you give to that ambitious men versus class to that ambitious men versus class to that ambitious men versus class warfare versus cycles and trends it's warfare versus cycles and trends it's warfare versus cycles and trends it's it's really difficult to to get into it's really difficult to to get into it's really difficult to to get into because Roman politics did operate because Roman politics did operate because Roman politics did operate differently than modern Western politics differently than modern Western politics differently than modern Western politics like the client system where's it yeah like the client system where's it yeah like the client system where's it yeah likes yes so the the first and most likes yes so the the first and most likes yes so the the first and most important thing is to say that these are important thing is to say that these are important thing is to say that these are these are more like clan rivalries than these are more like clan rivalries than these are more like clan rivalries than then class warfare where you know Europe then class warfare where you know Europe then class warfare where you know Europe a you're a patron you're a leader and a you're a patron you're a leader and a you're a patron you're a leader and you have this network of clients who are you have this network of clients who are you have this network of clients who are all attached to you and then your all attached to you and then your all attached to you and then your political rivals have that same network political rivals have that same network political rivals have that same network of clients who are all attached to them of clients who are all attached to them of clients who are all attached to them so this is really like this is really so this is really like this is really so this is really like this is really clans running into each other with with clans running into each other with with clans running into each other with with almost like nobles and retainers if you almost like nobles and retainers if you almost like nobles and retainers if you wanted to use like a medieval analogy wanted to use like a medieval analogy wanted to use like a medieval analogy rather than rather than like oh we're rather than rather than like oh we're rather than rather than like oh we're you know we're the lower classes and we you know we're the lower classes and we you know we're the lower classes and we are trying to overthrow you guys the are trying to overthrow you guys the are trying to overthrow you guys the upper classes but that said during this upper classes but that said during this upper classes but that said during this era right after after 146 I think you do era right after after 146 I think you do era right after after 146 I think you do have a new class style of politics that have a new class style of politics that have a new class style of politics that one of these rival clans can take one of these rival clans can take one of these rival clans can take advantage of right and so hopefully I'm advantage of right and so hopefully I'm advantage of right and so hopefully I'm able to paint this correctly so what it able to paint this correctly so what it able to paint this correctly so what it is is you have this ability to go out in

is is you have this ability to go out in is is you have this ability to go out in - just the voting public right because - just the voting public right because - just the voting public right because all of these people could vote the rural all of these people could vote the rural all of these people could vote the rural peasants the urban clubs they could all peasants the urban clubs they could all peasants the urban clubs they could all vote and you could use the popular vote and you could use the popular vote and you could use the popular assemblies to pass legislation to make assemblies to pass legislation to make assemblies to pass legislation to make yourself and your own clan very very yourself and your own clan very very yourself and your own clan very very popular so this is almost something that popular so this is almost something that popular so this is almost something that like you would be sitting around with like you would be sitting around with like you would be sitting around with your senatorial family or you're an your senatorial family or you're an your senatorial family or you're an ambitious senatorial family and you're ambitious senatorial family and you're ambitious senatorial family and you're like how are we gonna get power of that like how are we gonna get power of that like how are we gonna get power of that appeal to the populace is an available appeal to the populace is an available appeal to the populace is an available method of doing it so your ginning up method of doing it so your ginning up method of doing it so your ginning up class interests and you're pointing them class interests and you're pointing them class interests and you're pointing them at often - usually you're pointing it at at often - usually you're pointing it at at often - usually you're pointing it at the corrupt Senate and saying like we're the corrupt Senate and saying like we're the corrupt Senate and saying like we're gonna you know we are gonna deliver to gonna you know we are gonna deliver to gonna you know we are gonna deliver to you what the corrupt Senate has been you what the corrupt Senate has been you what the corrupt Senate has been denying you but five years later or 10 denying you but five years later or 10 denying you but five years later or 10 years later maybe your rival has decided years later maybe your rival has decided years later maybe your rival has decided to to try to adopt one of these popular to to try to adopt one of these popular to to try to adopt one of these popular a platforms and use that well now you a platforms and use that well now you a platforms and use that well now you suddenly become the defender of old suddenly become the defender of old suddenly become the defender of old senatorial interests because your rival senatorial interests because your rival senatorial interests because your rival was the one who's now doing the popular was the one who's now doing the popular was the one who's now doing the popular program and so it was it was a lot of program and so it was it was a lot of program and so it was it was a lot of like taking on and putting off of hats like taking on and putting off of hats like taking on and putting off of hats where you were tempered you might where you were tempered you might where you were tempered you might temporarily be the leader of a popular temporarily be the leader of a popular temporarily be the leader of a popular movement and then 10 years later you movement and then 10 years later you movement and then 10 years later you might be standing in lockstep with the might be standing in lockstep with the might be standing in lockstep with the Senate so it was very it was it was a Senate so it was very it was it was a Senate so it was very it was it was a lot more fluid I think than than lot more fluid I think than than lot more fluid I think than than anything that would be going on say like anything that would be going on say like anything that would be going on say like you know with with battles between you know with with battles between you know with with battles between unions battles between like socialists unions battles between like socialists unions battles between like socialists and capitalists in the modern era where and capitalists in the modern era where and capitalists in the modern era where there's really class interests involved there's really class interests involved there's really class interests involved and you really had also like lower-class and you really had also like lower-class and you really had also like lower-class leaders doing the leading in that sense leaders doing the leading in that sense leaders doing the leading in that sense which you don't really get that in Roman

which you don't really get that in Roman which you don't really get that in Roman history no and it was interesting history no and it was interesting history no and it was interesting because you had included in the book because you had included in the book because you had included in the book something I think was Cato the Elder had something I think was Cato the Elder had something I think was Cato the Elder had talked about and we're getting back here talked about and we're getting back here talked about and we're getting back here to the changes in Rome because of the to the changes in Rome because of the to the changes in Rome because of the Punic Wars on the various conquest about Punic Wars on the various conquest about Punic Wars on the various conquest about the amount of wealth that was being the amount of wealth that was being the amount of wealth that was being dragged back to Rome by some of these dragged back to Rome by some of these dragged back to Rome by some of these people you know because most of the people you know because most of the people you know because most of the people don't benefit from these conquest people don't benefit from these conquest people don't benefit from these conquest but some of these commanders and whatnot but some of these commanders and whatnot but some of these commanders and whatnot would come back you were talking about would come back you were talking about would come back you were talking about 40,000 pounds of silver and things like 40,000 pounds of silver and things like 40,000 pounds of silver and things like that that that talk a little about how and this is this talk a little about how and this is this talk a little about how and this is this is such a Roman moralizer point of view is such a Roman moralizer point of view is such a Roman moralizer point of view right about how the nouveau riche Romans right about how the nouveau riche Romans right about how the nouveau riche Romans are forgetting their values but you are forgetting their values but you are forgetting their values but you included it in the book how much did the included it in the book how much did the included it in the book how much did the did the Roman system change because all did the Roman system change because all did the Roman system change because all of a sudden it went from 8 well at least of a sudden it went from 8 well at least of a sudden it went from 8 well at least the poor trails of it make it sound like the poor trails of it make it sound like the poor trails of it make it sound like more Spartan more old values too you more Spartan more old values too you more Spartan more old values too you know Cato the Elder looking at the nice know Cato the Elder looking at the nice know Cato the Elder looking at the nice figs and saying Carthage must be figs and saying Carthage must be figs and saying Carthage must be destroyed I I think that the role of destroyed I I think that the role of destroyed I I think that the role of this new wealth there's a couple of this new wealth there's a couple of this new wealth there's a couple of things that all of this new wealth does things that all of this new wealth does things that all of this new wealth does does bring into play right like the the does bring into play right like the the does bring into play right like the the Cato the Elder style critique which is Cato the Elder style critique which is Cato the Elder style critique which is that all of this wealth degraded the that all of this wealth degraded the that all of this wealth degraded the morality of the upper class or degraded morality of the upper class or degraded morality of the upper class or degraded the morality of the Romans I think is the morality of the Romans I think is the morality of the Romans I think is less important i I don't think that that less important i I don't think that that less important i I don't think that that is is a huge driver of of what the is is a huge driver of of what the is is a huge driver of of what the problem was I don't think it was that problem was I don't think it was that problem was I don't think it was that the wealth degraded their morals I think the wealth degraded their morals I think the wealth degraded their morals I think it was that it created skyrocketing it was that it created skyrocketing it was that it created skyrocketing economic in equality right word there economic in equality right word there economic in equality right word there had always been rich and poor in realm

had always been rich and poor in realm had always been rich and poor in realm right that that is gonna be true going right that that is gonna be true going right that that is gonna be true going all the way back what was happening is all the way back what was happening is all the way back what was happening is that as as you just mentioned and I read that as as you just mentioned and I read that as as you just mentioned and I read about this in the book that you have about this in the book that you have about this in the book that you have these legions going out there going out these legions going out there going out these legions going out there going out to Greece Macedonia they're going to to Greece Macedonia they're going to to Greece Macedonia they're going to North Africa and they're bringing back North Africa and they're bringing back North Africa and they're bringing back three hundred thousand gold coins three hundred thousand gold coins three hundred thousand gold coins they're bringing back 80 thousand pounds they're bringing back 80 thousand pounds they're bringing back 80 thousand pounds of raw silver I mean literally like the of raw silver I mean literally like the of raw silver I mean literally like the the species of the available species of the species of the available species of the species of the available species of the Mediterranean is being thrown into the Mediterranean is being thrown into the Mediterranean is being thrown into Roman wagons and hauled back to Rome all Roman wagons and hauled back to Rome all Roman wagons and hauled back to Rome all of which is being controlled mostly by of which is being controlled mostly by of which is being controlled mostly by that upper class senatorial elite or the that upper class senatorial elite or the that upper class senatorial elite or the the the richer equestrian classes right the the richer equestrian classes right the the richer equestrian classes right the sort of the sub Senate the the the sort of the sub Senate the the the sort of the sub Senate the the people who are one step below the people who are one step below the people who are one step below the senators these guys are the ones who can senators these guys are the ones who can senators these guys are the ones who can are controlling all of this wealth and I are controlling all of this wealth and I are controlling all of this wealth and I do think that far from degrading the do think that far from degrading the do think that far from degrading the morality of the thing it does degrade morality of the thing it does degrade morality of the thing it does degrade the socio-economic system where what are the socio-economic system where what are the socio-economic system where what are they going to do with all this gold the they going to do with all this gold the they going to do with all this gold the Romans did not they did not sit around Romans did not they did not sit around Romans did not they did not sit around counting counting their gold pieces like counting counting their gold pieces like counting counting their gold pieces like Scrooge and you know in in a Christmas Scrooge and you know in in a Christmas Scrooge and you know in in a Christmas Carol Carol Carol they want to invest their gold into they want to invest their gold into they want to invest their gold into things and most especially they want to things and most especially they want to things and most especially they want to invest it in land so their their ability invest it in land so their their ability invest it in land so their their ability to now command this huge huge amount of to now command this huge huge amount of to now command this huge huge amount of wealth they're pouring it into trying to wealth they're pouring it into trying to wealth they're pouring it into trying to buy up as much land as they possibly can buy up as much land as they possibly can buy up as much land as they possibly can and this does lead to the further and this does lead to the further and this does lead to the further dispossession of all of those poorer dispossession of all of those poorer dispossession of all of those poorer Roman farmers Roman farmers Roman farmers we talked about a couple of minutes ago we talked about a couple of minutes ago we talked about a couple of minutes ago so that there's that process that isn't so that there's that process that isn't so that there's that process that isn't unfolding that wealth being controlled unfolding that wealth being controlled unfolding that wealth being controlled by a few rich families is leading those

by a few rich families is leading those by a few rich families is leading those rich families to expand their own land rich families to expand their own land rich families to expand their own land holdings across Italy and that's just holdings across Italy and that's just holdings across Italy and that's just gonna disrupt the entire socio-economic gonna disrupt the entire socio-economic gonna disrupt the entire socio-economic a system at that had been in existence a system at that had been in existence a system at that had been in existence for hundreds of years and that's just for hundreds of years and that's just for hundreds of years and that's just the one thing that they're investing all the one thing that they're investing all the one thing that they're investing all their money and and the other thing that their money and and the other thing that their money and and the other thing that they're investing all their money in is they're investing all their money in is they're investing all their money in is slaves so they're now able to the richer slaves so they're now able to the richer slaves so they're now able to the richer Romans are now able to bring slaves into Romans are now able to bring slaves into Romans are now able to bring slaves into the system on again an unprecedented the system on again an unprecedented the system on again an unprecedented scale the Romans had always had slaves scale the Romans had always had slaves scale the Romans had always had slaves those slaves had always been around but those slaves had always been around but those slaves had always been around but now you really have the slaves beginning now you really have the slaves beginning now you really have the slaves beginning to do most of the at least commercial to do most of the at least commercial to do most of the at least commercial labor of this of Roman society they're labor of this of Roman society they're labor of this of Roman society they're out there they're picking they're doing out there they're picking they're doing out there they're picking they're doing work in the grape fields they're you work in the grape fields they're you work in the grape fields they're you know they're doing the olives they are know they're doing the olives they are know they're doing the olives they are if they're skilled right if you if you if they're skilled right if you if you if they're skilled right if you if you get captured you're like hey I can you get captured you're like hey I can you get captured you're like hey I can you know make tables then you're gonna be know make tables then you're gonna be know make tables then you're gonna be put to work making tables for your owner put to work making tables for your owner put to work making tables for your owner or if you're really unlucky you're gonna or if you're really unlucky you're gonna or if you're really unlucky you're gonna be sent off to work in one of the mines be sent off to work in one of the mines be sent off to work in one of the mines and that's again that's just gonna be and that's again that's just gonna be and that's again that's just gonna be producing more and more wealth for the producing more and more wealth for the producing more and more wealth for the senatorial aristocracy so that senatorial aristocracy so that senatorial aristocracy so that combination of of massive amounts of combination of of massive amounts of combination of of massive amounts of wealth massive amounts of slaves but wealth massive amounts of slaves but wealth massive amounts of slaves but always really to the benefit of a very always really to the benefit of a very always really to the benefit of a very small elite inside of Rome creates I small elite inside of Rome creates I small elite inside of Rome creates I think the the the fundamentally think the the the fundamentally think the the the fundamentally destabilizing energy that is gonna allow destabilizing energy that is gonna allow destabilizing energy that is gonna allow some of these be they genuine reformers some of these be they genuine reformers some of these be they genuine reformers all the way too cynical demagogues or all the way too cynical demagogues or all the way too cynical demagogues or all the way you know ultimately all the way you know ultimately all the way you know ultimately culminating with julius caesar who is culminating with julius caesar who is culminating with julius caesar who is the popluar a you know reformer slash

the popluar a you know reformer slash the popluar a you know reformer slash super ambitious noble par excellence super ambitious noble par excellence super ambitious noble par excellence it's all gonna culminate with him and it's all gonna culminate with him and it's all gonna culminate with him and the slaves to me is the ultimate the slaves to me is the ultimate the slaves to me is the ultimate different variable when they do the different variable when they do the different variable when they do the comparisons between say the u.s. now and comparisons between say the u.s. now and comparisons between say the u.s. now and the roman republic because even if you the roman republic because even if you the roman republic because even if you wanted to argue about you know slave wanted to argue about you know slave wanted to argue about you know slave labor being equivalent to low income labor being equivalent to low income labor being equivalent to low income labor from over the border or whatever I labor from over the border or whatever I labor from over the border or whatever I don't I don't see the similarity and it don't I don't see the similarity and it don't I don't see the similarity and it would be if you wanted to make an would be if you wanted to make an would be if you wanted to make an analogy with what the Romans did or what analogy with what the Romans did or what analogy with what the Romans did or what a lot of people's did in earlier history a lot of people's did in earlier history a lot of people's did in earlier history would be like we went into the Middle would be like we went into the Middle would be like we went into the Middle East toppled Saddam Hussein and brought East toppled Saddam Hussein and brought East toppled Saddam Hussein and brought thousands of Iraqis back to the United thousands of Iraqis back to the United thousands of Iraqis back to the United States to serve us States to serve us States to serve us sounds like an inherent sounds like an inherent sounds like an inherent the unstable situation to begin with I the unstable situation to begin with I the unstable situation to begin with I found it interesting when you were found it interesting when you were found it interesting when you were talking about who had power in Rome and talking about who had power in Rome and talking about who had power in Rome and you talked about Assemblies and that the you talked about Assemblies and that the you talked about Assemblies and that the average Joe on the street had more but I average Joe on the street had more but I average Joe on the street had more but I would say both more and less power maybe would say both more and less power maybe would say both more and less power maybe than one thought but you're lying about than one thought but you're lying about than one thought but you're lying about being able to control maybe you would I being able to control maybe you would I being able to control maybe you would I think in England they called it King mob think in England they called it King mob think in England they called it King mob at one point the ability to control the at one point the ability to control the at one point the ability to control the political heart of Rome as as the political heart of Rome as as the political heart of Rome as as the population gave a certain amount of population gave a certain amount of population gave a certain amount of power in the city it always amazed me power in the city it always amazed me power in the city it always amazed me that that in that kind of a situation that that in that kind of a situation that that in that kind of a situation that you never had a French Revolution that you never had a French Revolution that you never had a French Revolution kind of thing when when it's so much a kind of thing when when it's so much a kind of thing when when it's so much a large percentage of the population being large percentage of the population being large percentage of the population being balanced out by such a small class but balanced out by such a small class but balanced out by such a small class but it's that client relationship that sort it's that client relationship that sort it's that client relationship that sort of weaves the threads of connections of weaves the threads of connections of weaves the threads of connections isn't it through the rich the poor in isn't it through the rich the poor in isn't it through the rich the poor in the middle classes and could you talk a the middle classes and could you talk a the middle classes and could you talk a minute about the equestrian class maybe minute about the equestrian class maybe minute about the equestrian class maybe and a connection to what today we would and a connection to what today we would and a connection to what today we would call you know corporations and and and

call you know corporations and and and call you know corporations and and and the fact that because the Roman senators the fact that because the Roman senators the fact that because the Roman senators were not supposed to involve themselves were not supposed to involve themselves were not supposed to involve themselves in business it sort of left a loophole in business it sort of left a loophole in business it sort of left a loophole for these other people to come in and for these other people to come in and for these other people to come in and create what I think today we would call create what I think today we would call create what I think today we would call corporations you think that's a fair corporations you think that's a fair corporations you think that's a fair term yeah I think that they were term yeah I think that they were term yeah I think that they were corporations they were they were stock corporations they were they were stock corporations they were they were stock you you would actually buy stock in you you would actually buy stock in you you would actually buy stock in these things okay so that's fair right these things okay so that's fair right these things okay so that's fair right yeah in a rudimentary way that yeah so yeah in a rudimentary way that yeah so yeah in a rudimentary way that yeah so there was there was this prohibition on there was there was this prohibition on there was there was this prohibition on the Senators like somebody who was in the Senators like somebody who was in the Senators like somebody who was in the Senate and you're talking about you the Senate and you're talking about you the Senate and you're talking about you know maybe 300 350 men and their know maybe 300 350 men and their know maybe 300 350 men and their families are prohibited from conducting families are prohibited from conducting families are prohibited from conducting commercial transactions and of course commercial transactions and of course commercial transactions and of course just the caveat to this is that all of just the caveat to this is that all of just the caveat to this is that all of them did it they all had they all had them did it they all had they all had them did it they all had they all had fronts they all had clients that they fronts they all had clients that they fronts they all had clients that they would use were like oh this is my guy would use were like oh this is my guy would use were like oh this is my guy you know you know you know Publius he just he's somebody who just Publius he just he's somebody who just Publius he just he's somebody who just so happens to own a large amount of so happens to own a large amount of so happens to own a large amount of commercial real estate and I just happen commercial real estate and I just happen commercial real estate and I just happen to know him and it's like it was all a to know him and it's like it was all a to know him and it's like it was all a front front front so the most senators were able to dodge so the most senators were able to dodge so the most senators were able to dodge this quite easily but the Roman state this quite easily but the Roman state this quite easily but the Roman state itself didn't perform any of their own itself didn't perform any of their own itself didn't perform any of their own logistical enterprises right like even logistical enterprises right like even logistical enterprises right like even right down to right right down to tax right down to right right down to tax right down to right right down to tax collection right the the Romans did not collection right the the Romans did not collection right the the Romans did not have like state employees who were tax have like state employees who were tax have like state employees who were tax collectors they didn't have collectors they didn't have collectors they didn't have state employees who made uniforms for state employees who made uniforms for state employees who made uniforms for the legions and shipped them off to the the legions and shipped them off to the the legions and shipped them off to the legions this was all done by groups of legions this was all done by groups of legions this was all done by groups of wealthy individuals who were not in the wealthy individuals who were not in the wealthy individuals who were not in the Senate because because you we want to be

Senate because because you we want to be Senate because because you we want to be able to get around that you know the able to get around that you know the able to get around that you know the commercial the commercial prohibitions commercial the commercial prohibitions commercial the commercial prohibitions so you have these very wealthy families so you have these very wealthy families so you have these very wealthy families in Rome who are not a part of the Senate in Rome who are not a part of the Senate in Rome who are not a part of the Senate who are actually the ones who are now who are actually the ones who are now who are actually the ones who are now handling the wealth of the society the handling the wealth of the society the handling the wealth of the society the the large-scale transactions there there the large-scale transactions there there the large-scale transactions there there what they would do is they would come what they would do is they would come what they would do is they would come together say that the tax collectors if together say that the tax collectors if together say that the tax collectors if you want one of these tax farming you want one of these tax farming you want one of these tax farming contracts and you would say okay here's contracts and you would say okay here's contracts and you would say okay here's how much we're gonna bid to get this how much we're gonna bid to get this how much we're gonna bid to get this contract and then the the sensor once contract and then the the sensor once contract and then the the sensor once every five years what award would award every five years what award would award every five years what award would award a contract and let's say your company a contract and let's say your company a contract and let's say your company won the bid then you would now have the won the bid then you would now have the won the bid then you would now have the right to go to some province or go to right to go to some province or go to right to go to some province or go to some area and be in charge of the tax some area and be in charge of the tax some area and be in charge of the tax collection where any amount of money collection where any amount of money collection where any amount of money that you that you made out collecting that you that you made out collecting that you that you made out collecting taxes above what you had bid was gonna taxes above what you had bid was gonna taxes above what you had bid was gonna be your profit that model of extracting be your profit that model of extracting be your profit that model of extracting taxes from provincials left itself open taxes from provincials left itself open taxes from provincials left itself open to like wild corruption and abuse where to like wild corruption and abuse where to like wild corruption and abuse where if if your profit margin is simply if if your profit margin is simply if if your profit margin is simply however much you can get out of these however much you can get out of these however much you can get out of these people it's gonna lead you to strong-arm people it's gonna lead you to strong-arm people it's gonna lead you to strong-arm people it's gonna lead you to demand people it's gonna lead you to demand people it's gonna lead you to demand more than they actually owed in taxes more than they actually owed in taxes more than they actually owed in taxes and the Roman government the Roman and the Roman government the Roman and the Roman government the Roman provincial administrations I mean the provincial administrations I mean the provincial administrations I mean the people who would actually be out there people who would actually be out there people who would actually be out there in nearer Spain or in further Spain in nearer Spain or in further Spain in nearer Spain or in further Spain actually representing the Roman actually representing the Roman actually representing the Roman government as like a state agent I mean government as like a state agent I mean government as like a state agent I mean you're talking about less than a hundred you're talking about less than a hundred you're talking about less than a hundred people you're talking about you know

people you're talking about you know people you're talking about you know it's the governor his family and maybe a it's the governor his family and maybe a it's the governor his family and maybe a couple other elected officials meanwhile couple other elected officials meanwhile couple other elected officials meanwhile the face of Rome out there the people the face of Rome out there the people the face of Rome out there the people who are actually running the province is who are actually running the province is who are actually running the province is is these are these tax farmers with very is these are these tax farmers with very is these are these tax farmers with very little oversight and you could kind of little oversight and you could kind of little oversight and you could kind of like if you were a tax farmer you could like if you were a tax farmer you could like if you were a tax farmer you could go to a family and say like hey you owe go to a family and say like hey you owe go to a family and say like hey you owe me this in taxes the provincial pays the me this in taxes the provincial pays the me this in taxes the provincial pays the tax then you come back around six months tax then you come back around six months tax then you come back around six months later and say hey you owe me this tax later and say hey you owe me this tax later and say hey you owe me this tax again and the family could say hey we again and the family could say hey we again and the family could say hey we already paid that tax six months ago and already paid that tax six months ago and already paid that tax six months ago and the tax farm would just say why the tax farm would just say why the tax farm would just say why CAIR you pay me and there's no there's CAIR you pay me and there's no there's CAIR you pay me and there's no there's no oversight to any of this no real no oversight to any of this no real no oversight to any of this no real effective oversight anyway and this effective oversight anyway and this effective oversight anyway and this creates the same kind of really anger creates the same kind of really anger creates the same kind of really anger and resentment at a lot at what the and resentment at a lot at what the and resentment at a lot at what the Roman administrators were up to amongst Roman administrators were up to amongst Roman administrators were up to amongst the provincials out out there in Spain the provincials out out there in Spain the provincials out out there in Spain or in Greece or later in Asia or what is or in Greece or later in Asia or what is or in Greece or later in Asia or what is today Western Turkey that in and of today Western Turkey that in and of today Western Turkey that in and of itself led to a destabilization of their itself led to a destabilization of their itself led to a destabilization of their Imperial hold on things and that doesn't Imperial hold on things and that doesn't Imperial hold on things and that doesn't all get straightened out really until all get straightened out really until all get straightened out really until Augustus comes along and starts Augustus comes along and starts Augustus comes along and starts introducing more stable reforms so introducing more stable reforms so introducing more stable reforms so fleeced by the contractors right very fleeced by the contractors right very fleeced by the contractors right very much so very much so so let me let me much so very much so so let me let me much so very much so so let me let me ask you and this is there's a little bit ask you and this is there's a little bit ask you and this is there's a little bit of storytelling here cuz I think it's of storytelling here cuz I think it's of storytelling here cuz I think it's horrifying to me the first time I ever horrifying to me the first time I ever horrifying to me the first time I ever read anything in ancient history that read anything in ancient history that read anything in ancient history that reminded me of like George Orwell's 1984 reminded me of like George Orwell's 1984 reminded me of like George Orwell's 1984 I mean maybe this is just the way my I mean maybe this is just the way my I mean maybe this is just the way my brain connects things but when you read brain connects things but when you read brain connects things but when you read about you know the the Marius and the about you know the the Marius and the about you know the the Marius and the sulla eras when when prescription lists

sulla eras when when prescription lists sulla eras when when prescription lists are going up and people will read about are going up and people will read about are going up and people will read about whether or not they're being sentenced whether or not they're being sentenced whether or not they're being sentenced to die I mean that has such a third to die I mean that has such a third to die I mean that has such a third right kind of Orwellian maybe feel to it right kind of Orwellian maybe feel to it right kind of Orwellian maybe feel to it can go into that a little bit and talk can go into that a little bit and talk can go into that a little bit and talk about um talk about how different that about um talk about how different that about um talk about how different that was for Rome to wake up and go see if was for Rome to wake up and go see if was for Rome to wake up and go see if you're you were on the list to die so at you're you were on the list to die so at you're you were on the list to die so at the beginning of the book right we're at the beginning of the book right we're at the beginning of the book right we're at there's conflicts between various there's conflicts between various there's conflicts between various political rivals various political political rivals various political political rivals various political groups various families and they start groups various families and they start groups various families and they start maneuvering around each other and they maneuvering around each other and they maneuvering around each other and they start breaking down these like rules of start breaking down these like rules of start breaking down these like rules of the most my Orem but it but kind of in the most my Orem but it but kind of in the most my Orem but it but kind of in the early days it's all very ad-hoc it's the early days it's all very ad-hoc it's the early days it's all very ad-hoc it's all very spontaneous and it's really all very spontaneous and it's really all very spontaneous and it's really more about like maneuvering in new ways more about like maneuvering in new ways more about like maneuvering in new ways that hadn't been done before you start that hadn't been done before you start that hadn't been done before you start plotting along through the book yeah you plotting along through the book yeah you plotting along through the book yeah you get to chapter 8 you get to chapter 9 get to chapter 8 you get to chapter 9 get to chapter 8 you get to chapter 9 now we're talking about these groups now we're talking about these groups now we're talking about these groups having armed like on retainer armed having armed like on retainer armed having armed like on retainer armed gangs who are gonna fight for you and by gangs who are gonna fight for you and by gangs who are gonna fight for you and by the very end of the book it becomes the very end of the book it becomes the very end of the book it becomes necessary to not just defeat your rivals necessary to not just defeat your rivals necessary to not just defeat your rivals and have them say like oh okay well I and have them say like oh okay well I and have them say like oh okay well I lost that vote or I lost that consulship lost that vote or I lost that consulship lost that vote or I lost that consulship I guess I'll go home now I guess I'll go home now I guess I'll go home now you're operating in a civil war you're operating in a civil war you're operating in a civil war environment where it's no longer enough environment where it's no longer enough environment where it's no longer enough to just beat your rival so you have to to just beat your rival so you have to to just beat your rival so you have to kill you have to kill them and if you kill you have to kill them and if you kill you have to kill them and if you don't kill them then they're gonna come don't kill them then they're gonna come don't kill them then they're gonna come back and they're gonna kill you so back and they're gonna kill you so back and they're gonna kill you so there's there's a there's a little tight there's there's a there's a little tight there's there's a there's a little tight cycle of this where you know when I cycle of this where you know when I cycle of this where you know when I don't want to do too much in the way of

don't want to do too much in the way of don't want to do too much in the way of spoilers if you haven't read the book spoilers if you haven't read the book spoilers if you haven't read the book but yeah I mean we we kind of all know but yeah I mean we we kind of all know but yeah I mean we we kind of all know it all ends badly for the Romans so it's it all ends badly for the Romans so it's it all ends badly for the Romans so it's not too much of a spoiler to say it ends not too much of a spoiler to say it ends not too much of a spoiler to say it ends badly for most of these people but sulla badly for most of these people but sulla badly for most of these people but sulla goes off to the east to fight his battle goes off to the east to fight his battle goes off to the east to fight his battle hood to fight his war against hood to fight his war against hood to fight his war against Mithridates he's had this very intense Mithridates he's had this very intense Mithridates he's had this very intense struggle with Marius and Marius as struggle with Marius and Marius as struggle with Marius and Marius as allies and Marius and his allies wind up allies and Marius and his allies wind up allies and Marius and his allies wind up coming into Rome and recapturing Rome coming into Rome and recapturing Rome coming into Rome and recapturing Rome having been booted out a couple of weeks having been booted out a couple of weeks having been booted out a couple of weeks earlier and they start killing the earlier and they start killing the earlier and they start killing the Allies of sulla this leads when sulla Allies of sulla this leads when sulla Allies of sulla this leads when sulla comes back a couple years later for comes back a couple years later for comes back a couple years later for sulla to reciprocate to to give as good sulla to reciprocate to to give as good sulla to reciprocate to to give as good as he gets and start yeah literally as he gets and start yeah literally as he gets and start yeah literally putting up named lists right here's a putting up named lists right here's a putting up named lists right here's a list of names and if you kill one of list of names and if you kill one of list of names and if you kill one of these people and bring me their head these people and bring me their head these people and bring me their head then I will pay you I will pay you money then I will pay you I will pay you money then I will pay you I will pay you money and what is kind of and it also not just and what is kind of and it also not just and what is kind of and it also not just Orwellian but also like very Kafka asked Orwellian but also like very Kafka asked Orwellian but also like very Kafka asked right where it's all it all becomes very right where it's all it all becomes very right where it's all it all becomes very arbitrary where the whole the whole arbitrary where the whole the whole arbitrary where the whole the whole original point of the prescription list original point of the prescription list original point of the prescription list was so that the people who sulla was not was so that the people who sulla was not was so that the people who sulla was not planning on killing could rest easy like planning on killing could rest easy like planning on killing could rest easy like okay well my name's not on the list so okay well my name's not on the list so okay well my name's not on the list so so I'll be fine so I'll be fine so I'll be fine but every day a new list goes up with but every day a new list goes up with but every day a new list goes up with new names on it and you start having new names on it and you start having new names on it and you start having names being added to the list names being added to the list names being added to the list not because they are enemies of sulla not because they are enemies of sulla not because they are enemies of sulla but because they happen to be enemies of but because they happen to be enemies of but because they happen to be enemies of maybe one of sulles allies or in the maybe one of sulles allies or in the maybe one of sulles allies or in the case of Crassus and he is like hey you

case of Crassus and he is like hey you case of Crassus and he is like hey you own a very rich estate down here in own a very rich estate down here in own a very rich estate down here in Campania I think I would actually like Campania I think I would actually like Campania I think I would actually like to own that estate so I think I'm gonna to own that estate so I think I'm gonna to own that estate so I think I'm gonna declare you an enemy of sulla and have declare you an enemy of sulla and have declare you an enemy of sulla and have you killed you killed you killed so those prescriptions that sort of eat so those prescriptions that sort of eat so those prescriptions that sort of eat up the last last few chapters of the up the last last few chapters of the up the last last few chapters of the book are all very bloody and they become book are all very bloody and they become book are all very bloody and they become you know it takes on an absurd level you know it takes on an absurd level you know it takes on an absurd level where it doesn't even matter anymore where it doesn't even matter anymore where it doesn't even matter anymore whether you're an enemy of somebody in whether you're an enemy of somebody in whether you're an enemy of somebody in there there there there there there quote from some from some rich quote from some from some rich quote from some from some rich equestrian who gets killed and he sees I equestrian who gets killed and he sees I equestrian who gets killed and he sees I saw done for because of my Alban farm saw done for because of my Alban farm saw done for because of my Alban farm and then yeah he gets he gets killed in and then yeah he gets he gets killed in and then yeah he gets he gets killed in his farm gets confiscated so it moves his farm gets confiscated so it moves his farm gets confiscated so it moves very quickly from I have to kill my very quickly from I have to kill my very quickly from I have to kill my enemies in order to triumph to just like enemies in order to triumph to just like enemies in order to triumph to just like let's just kill everybody and confiscate let's just kill everybody and confiscate let's just kill everybody and confiscate their stuff and it's a wanted dead or their stuff and it's a wanted dead or their stuff and it's a wanted dead or alive kind of approach to getting the alive kind of approach to getting the alive kind of approach to getting the enemies isn't it sort of like bring us enemies isn't it sort of like bring us enemies isn't it sort of like bring us back the head and we'll pay I mean a back the head and we'll pay I mean a back the head and we'll pay I mean a little bit different than sending out little bit different than sending out little bit different than sending out your own Gestapo exactly and so you your own Gestapo exactly and so you your own Gestapo exactly and so you actually started having it became a actually started having it became a actually started having it became a fairly lucrative profession for for a fairly lucrative profession for for a fairly lucrative profession for for a couple months and even then for a couple couple months and even then for a couple couple months and even then for a couple years where you would go out and you years where you would go out and you years where you would go out and you would be like hey well what will would be like hey well what will would be like hey well what will Goodwill almost like bounty hunters Goodwill almost like bounty hunters Goodwill almost like bounty hunters right we'll go I'm just gonna say that right we'll go I'm just gonna say that right we'll go I'm just gonna say that exactly yeah and and we'll kill them and exactly yeah and and we'll kill them and exactly yeah and and we'll kill them and and then we'll get their stuff and what and then we'll get their stuff and what and then we'll get their stuff and what is you know and I also do mention this is you know and I also do mention this is you know and I also do mention this in the book is there does come a point in the book is there does come a point in the book is there does come a point where they start to realize it I mean where they start to realize it I mean where they start to realize it I mean they don't realize the way that we do they don't realize the way that we do they don't realize the way that we do that there's there are no photographs of that there's there are no photographs of that there's there are no photographs of anybody there are no pictures of anybody anybody there are no pictures of anybody anybody there are no pictures of anybody we don't live in a digital age where you we don't live in a digital age where you we don't live in a digital age where you have a where sella can hold up a picture

have a where sella can hold up a picture have a where sella can hold up a picture and then hold up the head and be like oh and then hold up the head and be like oh and then hold up the head and be like oh yeah you got the right guy and you start yeah you got the right guy and you start yeah you got the right guy and you start having them just grab random dudes off having them just grab random dudes off having them just grab random dudes off the street kill them chop their head off the street kill them chop their head off the street kill them chop their head off take it in and say oh this is uh and take it in and say oh this is uh and take it in and say oh this is uh and then they're like kind of scanning the then they're like kind of scanning the then they're like kind of scanning the list oh this is this guy it's Gaius yeah list oh this is this guy it's Gaius yeah list oh this is this guy it's Gaius yeah uh pyrius yeah he's yeah definitely this uh pyrius yeah he's yeah definitely this uh pyrius yeah he's yeah definitely this is his head and then you would get your is his head and then you would get your is his head and then you would get your bounty it's a little like this black bounty it's a little like this black bounty it's a little like this black scalp that I'm giving you with black scalp that I'm giving you with black scalp that I'm giving you with black hair this is an Apache scalp I guarantee hair this is an Apache scalp I guarantee hair this is an Apache scalp I guarantee it you know yeah give me my - it's all it you know yeah give me my - it's all it you know yeah give me my - it's all very twisted it's all it's all very it's very twisted it's all it's all very it's very twisted it's all it's all very it's all quite sadistic to be honest all quite sadistic to be honest all quite sadistic to be honest something that comes to my mind and I something that comes to my mind and I something that comes to my mind and I honestly don't know the answer in the honestly don't know the answer in the honestly don't know the answer in the period we're talking about here but but period we're talking about here but but period we're talking about here but but discussing the the attempts by what we discussing the the attempts by what we discussing the the attempts by what we would call today foreign powers or would call today foreign powers or would call today foreign powers or foreign entities to influence the foreign entities to influence the foreign entities to influence the politics of a vibrant let's call it on politics of a vibrant let's call it on politics of a vibrant let's call it on the way to corrupt Republic the way to corrupt Republic the way to corrupt Republic I just finished a show we did on Caesars I just finished a show we did on Caesars I just finished a show we did on Caesars conquest of Gaul and it's interesting conquest of Gaul and it's interesting conquest of Gaul and it's interesting how the more armed shall we call them how the more armed shall we call them how the more armed shall we call them civilized or more Romanesque garlic civilized or more Romanesque garlic civilized or more Romanesque garlic tribes we're basically trying to tribes we're basically trying to tribes we're basically trying to influence the politics in Rome during influence the politics in Rome during influence the politics in Rome during the period you're talking about are the period you're talking about are the period you're talking about are there outside forces from other states there outside forces from other states there outside forces from other states trying to push their agenda or trying to push their agenda or trying to push their agenda or point of view or the direction they'd point of view or the direction they'd point of view or the direction they'd like to see Rome move towards where any like to see Rome move towards where any like to see Rome move towards where any of the outside entities in in the of the outside entities in in the of the outside entities in in the geopolitical world of the Mediterranean geopolitical world of the Mediterranean geopolitical world of the Mediterranean at that time trying to influence Roman at that time trying to influence Roman at that time trying to influence Roman politics definitely and this had been politics definitely and this had been politics definitely and this had been true for quite some time where you know true for quite some time where you know true for quite some time where you know going back even before the beginning of going back even before the beginning of going back even before the beginning of the book after Rome defeats Hannibal in

the book after Rome defeats Hannibal in the book after Rome defeats Hannibal in the second Punic War there was a there the second Punic War there was a there the second Punic War there was a there was a good like 50 or 60 year period was a good like 50 or 60 year period was a good like 50 or 60 year period where Rome was the most powerful state where Rome was the most powerful state where Rome was the most powerful state in the Mediterranean but not quite in the Mediterranean but not quite in the Mediterranean but not quite hadn't quite decided they wanted to hadn't quite decided they wanted to hadn't quite decided they wanted to annex and rule the Mediterranean annex and rule the Mediterranean annex and rule the Mediterranean directly where they almost set directly where they almost set directly where they almost set themselves up as kind of an arbitrator themselves up as kind of an arbitrator themselves up as kind of an arbitrator of last resort for various city-states of last resort for various city-states of last resort for various city-states and kingdoms out there so you would have and kingdoms out there so you would have and kingdoms out there so you would have like a couple of Greek cities who were like a couple of Greek cities who were like a couple of Greek cities who were in having some border dispute or having in having some border dispute or having in having some border dispute or having some like fishing rights dispute and some like fishing rights dispute and some like fishing rights dispute and they would agree to take their case to they would agree to take their case to they would agree to take their case to Rome at any time these em so so Rome Rome at any time these em so so Rome Rome at any time these em so so Rome became like a hub of international became like a hub of international became like a hub of international embassies and ambassadors and people embassies and ambassadors and people embassies and ambassadors and people constantly end voice coming and going constantly end voice coming and going constantly end voice coming and going from from really as far away as Syria from from really as far away as Syria from from really as far away as Syria and Egypt and all of them are bringing and Egypt and all of them are bringing and Egypt and all of them are bringing with them gifts that you know could only with them gifts that you know could only with them gifts that you know could only be described as bribes where you are be described as bribes where you are be described as bribes where you are definitely going to try to get what you definitely going to try to get what you definitely going to try to get what you want from the Senate by making sure that want from the Senate by making sure that want from the Senate by making sure that the right senators have received the the right senators have received the the right senators have received the right gifts and that that's something right gifts and that that's something right gifts and that that's something that had really this was again something that had really this was again something that had really this was again something that had opened up and and does get to a that had opened up and and does get to a that had opened up and and does get to a more corrupt version of the Senate than more corrupt version of the Senate than more corrupt version of the Senate than had existed before in the context of of had existed before in the context of of had existed before in the context of of my book the great example of this in my my book the great example of this in my my book the great example of this in my book is jag Arthas conduct in Numidia book is jag Arthas conduct in Numidia book is jag Arthas conduct in Numidia where he is you know one of the kings of where he is you know one of the kings of where he is you know one of the kings of Numidia after after his I guess adopted Numidia after after his I guess adopted Numidia after after his I guess adopted father dies along with his two brothers father dies along with his two brothers father dies along with his two brothers but jag Eartha would prefer to be the but jag Eartha would prefer to be the but jag Eartha would prefer to be the sole king of numidia and so he starts sole king of numidia and so he starts sole king of numidia and so he starts breaking treaties he starts killing his breaking treaties he starts killing his breaking treaties he starts killing his brothers and he wants the Senate to just

brothers and he wants the Senate to just brothers and he wants the Senate to just go along with what he's doing down there go along with what he's doing down there go along with what he's doing down there rather than sending in legions are rather than sending in legions are rather than sending in legions are trying to stop him so he absolutely trying to stop him so he absolutely trying to stop him so he absolutely quite brazenly and quite naked Lee is quite brazenly and quite naked Lee is quite brazenly and quite naked Lee is sending an voice to the Roman Senate sending an voice to the Roman Senate sending an voice to the Roman Senate laden with gold and laden with gifts and laden with gold and laden with gifts and laden with gold and laden with gifts and trying to influence the Senate's conduct trying to influence the Senate's conduct trying to influence the Senate's conduct and he's quite successful at it and he's quite successful at it and he's quite successful at it for most of the first seven or eight for most of the first seven or eight for most of the first seven or eight years of jaggers's reign years of jaggers's reign years of jaggers's reign he's definitely able to have more or he's definitely able to have more or he's definitely able to have more or less paid friends in the Senate direct less paid friends in the Senate direct less paid friends in the Senate direct the Senate away from the notion of ever the Senate away from the notion of ever the Senate away from the notion of ever sending the legions in to confront sending the legions in to confront sending the legions in to confront jagira and it gets quite bad where you jagira and it gets quite bad where you jagira and it gets quite bad where you do have these senators so like like God do have these senators so like like God do have these senators so like like God I mean this is so brazen like we're at I mean this is so brazen like we're at I mean this is so brazen like we're at we might actually have to do something we might actually have to do something we might actually have to do something about this like you're making us all about this like you're making us all about this like you're making us all look bad is there they're sort of look bad is there they're sort of look bad is there they're sort of chastising their their colleagues in the chastising their their colleagues in the chastising their their colleagues in the Senate who are accepting all of jaggerth Senate who are accepting all of jaggerth Senate who are accepting all of jaggerth a--'s money and that point the the a--'s money and that point the the a--'s money and that point the the corruption of the Senate by jaggerth corruption of the Senate by jaggerth corruption of the Senate by jaggerth a--'s money does become a flashpoint in a--'s money does become a flashpoint in a--'s money does become a flashpoint in Roman politics where again if you go Roman politics where again if you go Roman politics where again if you go back to some of these popular energies back to some of these popular energies back to some of these popular energies that had been sort of starters had that had been sort of starters had that had been sort of starters had started fomenting that they're saying started fomenting that they're saying started fomenting that they're saying like you know jagira is brazenly like you know jagira is brazenly like you know jagira is brazenly flouting Roman authority and Roman law flouting Roman authority and Roman law flouting Roman authority and Roman law were telling him to do things and he's were telling him to do things and he's were telling him to do things and he's ignoring us he's killing Italians he ignoring us he's killing Italians he ignoring us he's killing Italians he killing Roman citizens and yet we killing Roman citizens and yet we killing Roman citizens and yet we continue to do nothing why is that continue to do nothing why is that continue to do nothing why is that and it's because Joe Garza has bribed and it's because Joe Garza has bribed and it's because Joe Garza has bribed his way into the Senate and so they his way into the Senate and so they his way into the Senate and so they actually open up they're actually able actually open up they're actually able actually open up they're actually able to open up a sort of like a quasi as

to open up a sort of like a quasi as to open up a sort of like a quasi as like a special tribunal that is going to like a special tribunal that is going to like a special tribunal that is going to start to investigate and prosecute those start to investigate and prosecute those start to investigate and prosecute those in the Senate who were guilty of being in the Senate who were guilty of being in the Senate who were guilty of being corrupted by jag eartha which gets me to corrupted by jag eartha which gets me to corrupted by jag eartha which gets me to a question of tipping points and points a question of tipping points and points a question of tipping points and points of no return when you look at the you of no return when you look at the you of no return when you look at the you know when people like to look for know when people like to look for know when people like to look for examples from the past to try to analyze examples from the past to try to analyze examples from the past to try to analyze our own times and you do quite a bit of our own times and you do quite a bit of our own times and you do quite a bit of that in the book and I love it um but that in the book and I love it um but that in the book and I love it um but when you look at our situation now and when you look at our situation now and when you look at our situation now and the people who founded this country and the people who founded this country and the people who founded this country and who wrote the documents that the forum who wrote the documents that the forum who wrote the documents that the forum our framework were keen students of the our framework were keen students of the our framework were keen students of the Roman Republic obviously and so they Roman Republic obviously and so they Roman Republic obviously and so they were paying attention to the flaws in were paying attention to the flaws in were paying attention to the flaws in their system and how things went wrong their system and how things went wrong their system and how things went wrong and tried to make make changes in their and tried to make make changes in their and tried to make make changes in their own version obviously so that we own version obviously so that we own version obviously so that we wouldn't fall down the same rathole but wouldn't fall down the same rathole but wouldn't fall down the same rathole but when do you think it was irreversible in when do you think it was irreversible in when do you think it was irreversible in other words when do you think the death other words when do you think the death other words when do you think the death spiral had been reached where you can't spiral had been reached where you can't spiral had been reached where you can't imagine now where the the the points of imagine now where the the the points of imagine now where the the the points of no entry and the the ability to no entry and the the ability to no entry and the the ability to compromise had just gone to compromise had just gone to compromise had just gone to farming is it when the violence first farming is it when the violence first farming is it when the violence first breaks out or is it after that or is it breaks out or is it after that or is it breaks out or is it after that or is it before that where do you if you had to before that where do you if you had to before that where do you if you had to find a tipping point when the iceberg find a tipping point when the iceberg find a tipping point when the iceberg struck the Titanic maybe is a better way struck the Titanic maybe is a better way struck the Titanic maybe is a better way to put it where is it in your mind well to put it where is it in your mind well to put it where is it in your mind well so I'll answer that in a sec I will say so I'll answer that in a sec I will say so I'll answer that in a sec I will say that you know one of the reasons we know that you know one of the reasons we know that you know one of the reasons we know so much about everything I just said so much about everything I just said so much about everything I just said about jag eartha is because the Roman about jag eartha is because the Roman about jag eartha is because the Roman historian solaced elected to write about historian solaced elected to write about historian solaced elected to write about the Judean war and jaggers's corruption the Judean war and jaggers's corruption the Judean war and jaggers's corruption of the Senate and the battles that

of the Senate and the battles that of the Senate and the battles that ensued and solaced was somebody who was ensued and solaced was somebody who was ensued and solaced was somebody who was writing he was a partisan of Julius writing he was a partisan of Julius writing he was a partisan of Julius Caesar's so he's writing his books right Caesar's so he's writing his books right Caesar's so he's writing his books right around the 40s and 30s BC so he knows around the 40s and 30s BC so he knows around the 40s and 30s BC so he knows how it all turns out and he's writing how it all turns out and he's writing how it all turns out and he's writing you know fairly fairly contemporaneously you know fairly fairly contemporaneously you know fairly fairly contemporaneously with events and he wrote about the with events and he wrote about the with events and he wrote about the jogger theme more specifically because jogger theme more specifically because jogger theme more specifically because he said that was the tipping point right he said that was the tipping point right he said that was the tipping point right that was and he said that was the first that was and he said that was the first that was and he said that was the first moment that lay no like the old the the moment that lay no like the old the the moment that lay no like the old the the corruption of the Senate was first corruption of the Senate was first corruption of the Senate was first challenged and what led to what became challenged and what led to what became challenged and what led to what became these partisan battles that ultimately these partisan battles that ultimately these partisan battles that ultimately destroyed the Senate he he actually destroyed the Senate he he actually destroyed the Senate he he actually identified the juror thene war as as identified the juror thene war as as identified the juror thene war as as that tipping point which is why he wrote that tipping point which is why he wrote that tipping point which is why he wrote about it now could the Senate Hatter about it now could the Senate Hatter about it now could the Senate Hatter could could could the Roman Republic could could could the Roman Republic could could could the Roman Republic have pulled out of it at that point like have pulled out of it at that point like have pulled out of it at that point like I think so the the point that I come to I think so the the point that I come to I think so the the point that I come to is it's it's really it's sulles conduct is it's it's really it's sulles conduct is it's it's really it's sulles conduct at the very end what it what becomes the at the very end what it what becomes the at the very end what it what becomes the end of the book but sulles conduct end of the book but sulles conduct end of the book but sulles conduct during some of his final showdowns is during some of his final showdowns is during some of his final showdowns is really what sets the final permanent really what sets the final permanent really what sets the final permanent blueprint for how you can achieve power blueprint for how you can achieve power blueprint for how you can achieve power by completely disregarding just anything by completely disregarding just anything by completely disregarding just anything but brute force so sulla is going to he but brute force so sulla is going to he but brute force so sulla is going to he loses a political confrontation Salah loses a political confrontation Salah loses a political confrontation Salah losing he he had command of this eastern losing he he had command of this eastern losing he he had command of this eastern army he Marius uses the power of the army he Marius uses the power of the army he Marius uses the power of the assembly to strip sulla of his command assembly to strip sulla of his command assembly to strip sulla of his command and send sulla away what Marius thinks

and send sulla away what Marius thinks and send sulla away what Marius thinks he sent so a packing for good and sulla he sent so a packing for good and sulla he sent so a packing for good and sulla really is faced with this choice of do I really is faced with this choice of do I really is faced with this choice of do I accept this defeat do I get stripped of accept this defeat do I get stripped of accept this defeat do I get stripped of my command do I accept the humiliation my command do I accept the humiliation my command do I accept the humiliation that I have just endured at the hands of that I have just endured at the hands of that I have just endured at the hands of my rival Marius my rival Marius my rival Marius or do I go back to my five legions who or do I go back to my five legions who or do I go back to my five legions who are loyal to me personally and do I are loyal to me personally and do I are loyal to me personally and do I point them at Rome and march on Rome to point them at Rome and march on Rome to point them at Rome and march on Rome to a victim arias from Rome and reclaim a victim arias from Rome and reclaim a victim arias from Rome and reclaim what I think is rightfully mine once what I think is rightfully mine once what I think is rightfully mine once once sulla did that and then ultimately once sulla did that and then ultimately once sulla did that and then ultimately he emerges victorious from everything he emerges victorious from everything he emerges victorious from everything that is the point that men like Julius that is the point that men like Julius that is the point that men like Julius Caesar and men like Pompey who was an Caesar and men like Pompey who was an Caesar and men like Pompey who was an early partisan of Seles are going to be early partisan of Seles are going to be early partisan of Seles are going to be looking at later on down the road and looking at later on down the road and looking at later on down the road and saying well if nothing else like I can saying well if nothing else like I can saying well if nothing else like I can do that I mean this is we don't have any do that I mean this is we don't have any do that I mean this is we don't have any I don't think like exact quotes or proof I don't think like exact quotes or proof I don't think like exact quotes or proof and in the in the in the historical and in the in the in the historical and in the in the in the historical record that julius caesar was was record that julius caesar was was record that julius caesar was was actively thinking about sulla when he actively thinking about sulla when he actively thinking about sulla when he crossed the Rubicon but it had to have crossed the Rubicon but it had to have crossed the Rubicon but it had to have been on his mind and the proof was in been on his mind and the proof was in been on his mind and the proof was in the pudding for Seles conduct if you get the pudding for Seles conduct if you get the pudding for Seles conduct if you get a large army keep them loyal to you you a large army keep them loyal to you you a large army keep them loyal to you you can use them to prosecute your own can use them to prosecute your own can use them to prosecute your own domestic political enemies and emerge domestic political enemies and emerge domestic political enemies and emerge victorious and become a dictator for victorious and become a dictator for victorious and become a dictator for life so I I sort of put it there I think life so I I sort of put it there I think life so I I sort of put it there I think that sulles Seles decisions in those in that sulles Seles decisions in those in that sulles Seles decisions in those in those moments in the early days of the those moments in the early days of the those moments in the early days of the civil wars is really what what made it civil wars is really what what made it civil wars is really what what made it so that the Republic there was no I so that the Republic there was no I so that the Republic there was no I don't feel like there was any coming don't feel like there was any coming don't feel like there was any coming back from that you had mentioned when back from that you had mentioned when back from that you had mentioned when Caius Krakus was was looking at his

Caius Krakus was was looking at his Caius Krakus was was looking at his broad range of reforms you had talked broad range of reforms you had talked broad range of reforms you had talked about had they I'm going from memory about had they I'm going from memory about had they I'm going from memory he'd said if they had been enacted it he'd said if they had been enacted it he'd said if they had been enacted it would have foreseen a lot of the changes would have foreseen a lot of the changes would have foreseen a lot of the changes that augustus era roman reforms had that augustus era roman reforms had that augustus era roman reforms had implemented and obviously a long time implemented and obviously a long time implemented and obviously a long time ahead of time if something like that had ahead of time if something like that had ahead of time if something like that had gone forward is that the example of a gone forward is that the example of a gone forward is that the example of a reformed moment that had it come to pass reformed moment that had it come to pass reformed moment that had it come to pass the inevitable death spiral that the inevitable death spiral that the inevitable death spiral that happened might have been avoided I think happened might have been avoided I think happened might have been avoided I think so and it's because there there would so and it's because there there would so and it's because there there would not have been quite the energy or the not have been quite the energy or the not have been quite the energy or the impetus to to just crack the state in impetus to to just crack the state in impetus to to just crack the state in half right it you get to a point where half right it you get to a point where half right it you get to a point where if if your governing apparatus like if if your governing apparatus like if if your governing apparatus like whatever it happens to be if enough whatever it happens to be if enough whatever it happens to be if enough people start to feel like that governing people start to feel like that governing people start to feel like that governing apparatus is not working for them it's apparatus is not working for them it's apparatus is not working for them it's not doing anything for me personally why not doing anything for me personally why not doing anything for me personally why do I owe it as an institution any kind do I owe it as an institution any kind do I owe it as an institution any kind of loyal of loyal of loyal my loyalty ought to go to the thing or my loyalty ought to go to the thing or my loyalty ought to go to the thing or to the people or in the Roman case to the people or in the Roman case to the people or in the Roman case oftentimes to the general who's going to oftentimes to the general who's going to oftentimes to the general who's going to be guaranteeing me the kind of security be guaranteeing me the kind of security be guaranteeing me the kind of security that I want in life which is I want a that I want in life which is I want a that I want in life which is I want a plot of land I want you know decent plot of land I want you know decent plot of land I want you know decent wages I want I want someplace to be able wages I want I want someplace to be able wages I want I want someplace to be able to settle and retire when I'm done here to settle and retire when I'm done here to settle and retire when I'm done here by the time you get to the later by the time you get to the later by the time you get to the later republic that is provided by by warlords republic that is provided by by warlords republic that is provided by by warlords which is you know you could absolutely which is you know you could absolutely which is you know you could absolutely describe Caesar as a warlord once once describe Caesar as a warlord once once describe Caesar as a warlord once once it starts to become those guys who are it starts to become those guys who are it starts to become those guys who are delivering on the promises that that are delivering on the promises that that are delivering on the promises that that are being made rather than the state itself

being made rather than the state itself being made rather than the state itself yeah there's what what is it that they yeah there's what what is it that they yeah there's what what is it that they had to be loyal to the Senate and people had to be loyal to the Senate and people had to be loyal to the Senate and people of Rome abstractly for so when you when of Rome abstractly for so when you when of Rome abstractly for so when you when you get to these moments when you can you get to these moments when you can you get to these moments when you can make some of these when you can have a make some of these when you can have a make some of these when you can have a little bit of foresight and say to little bit of foresight and say to little bit of foresight and say to yourself oh is this model working for yourself oh is this model working for yourself oh is this model working for the entire citizen population or is it the entire citizen population or is it the entire citizen population or is it just working for a tiny elite you know just working for a tiny elite you know just working for a tiny elite you know once you start ignoring the rest of the once you start ignoring the rest of the once you start ignoring the rest of the citizens and say oh it's working for a citizens and say oh it's working for a citizens and say oh it's working for a tiny elite but that's fine they'll just tiny elite but that's fine they'll just tiny elite but that's fine they'll just accept it you do create a breach of accept it you do create a breach of accept it you do create a breach of legitimacy and you do alienate people to legitimacy and you do alienate people to legitimacy and you do alienate people to the point where they're no no they're no the point where they're no no they're no the point where they're no no they're no longer loyal to the system at all and longer loyal to the system at all and longer loyal to the system at all and that's how you get people just crashing that's how you get people just crashing that's how you get people just crashing it over and and most people practically it over and and most people practically it over and and most people practically not even caring yeah the private not even caring yeah the private not even caring yeah the private military thing which used to be illegal military thing which used to be illegal military thing which used to be illegal in Rome why did the Romans why did the in Rome why did the Romans why did the in Rome why did the Romans why did the the citizenry or the Senate put up with the citizenry or the Senate put up with the citizenry or the Senate put up with the change that I mean if you wanted to the change that I mean if you wanted to the change that I mean if you wanted to put the major thing that the founding put the major thing that the founding put the major thing that the founding fathers of the United States of course fathers of the United States of course fathers of the United States of course tried to do was to to make sure that the tried to do was to to make sure that the tried to do was to to make sure that the citizen leadership controlled the citizen leadership controlled the citizen leadership controlled the military so that we had that separation military so that we had that separation military so that we had that separation but but they kind of had that separation but but they kind of had that separation but but they kind of had that separation in Rome once upon a time what made and in Rome once upon a time what made and in Rome once upon a time what made and we'll make this the last question but we'll make this the last question but we'll make this the last question but what made the the the circumstances or what made the the the circumstances or what made the the the circumstances or public opinion or senatorial opinion I public opinion or senatorial opinion I public opinion or senatorial opinion I was gonna say change but the word might was gonna say change but the word might was gonna say change but the word might be put up why did they put up with it be put up why did they put up with it be put up why did they put up with it the raising of private armies yeah the the raising of private armies yeah the the raising of private armies yeah the the reason why they put up with it the reason why they put up with it the reason why they put up with it initially was because Rome was facing an initially was because Rome was facing an initially was because Rome was facing an emergency military situation where they emergency military situation where they emergency military situation where they were sort of simultaneously or around

were sort of simultaneously or around were sort of simultaneously or around the age of around Marius right cuz the age of around Marius right cuz the age of around Marius right cuz Marius is sort of the greats Marius is sort of the greats Marius is sort of the greats you know it had been moving in this you know it had been moving in this you know it had been moving in this direction direction direction so just to back up in case people don't so just to back up in case people don't so just to back up in case people don't know this know this know this previously to serve in the legions you previously to serve in the legions you previously to serve in the legions you had to own a certain amount of property had to own a certain amount of property had to own a certain amount of property you actually had to literally be rich you actually had to literally be rich you actually had to literally be rich enough to serve in the legions and by enough to serve in the legions and by enough to serve in the legions and by the middle of the book by in the middle the middle of the book by in the middle the middle of the book by in the middle of the storm before the storm you get of the storm before the storm you get of the storm before the storm you get Marius making this fateful request for Marius making this fateful request for Marius making this fateful request for an exemption from that requirement and an exemption from that requirement and an exemption from that requirement and just let me enroll any warm body who just let me enroll any warm body who just let me enroll any warm body who wants to show up and I'll train them and wants to show up and I'll train them and wants to show up and I'll train them and I'll teach them how to be soldiers that I'll teach them how to be soldiers that I'll teach them how to be soldiers that was that that was a fairly momentous was that that was a fairly momentous was that that was a fairly momentous change in in how the Romans conducted change in in how the Romans conducted change in in how the Romans conducted politics and war and does have a lot to politics and war and does have a lot to politics and war and does have a lot to do with that those people who are now do with that those people who are now do with that those people who are now going to be loyal more to their general going to be loyal more to their general going to be loyal more to their general than to the state because it's the than to the state because it's the than to the state because it's the general who's going to be providing them general who's going to be providing them general who's going to be providing them and guaranteeing them the the riches and and guaranteeing them the the riches and and guaranteeing them the the riches and land that they hope to get out of their land that they hope to get out of their land that they hope to get out of their service so the reason why I think in service so the reason why I think in service so the reason why I think in that moment why the Senate says okay that moment why the Senate says okay that moment why the Senate says okay yeah you can you can draft anybody is yeah you can you can draft anybody is yeah you can you can draft anybody is that they had that an ongoing war in that they had that an ongoing war in that they had that an ongoing war in North Africa there was a huge slave North Africa there was a huge slave North Africa there was a huge slave rebellion that had consumed that had rebellion that had consumed that had rebellion that had consumed that had consumed Sicily and then the Cimbri this consumed Sicily and then the Cimbri this consumed Sicily and then the Cimbri this this great Germanic a horrid that it was this great Germanic a horrid that it was this great Germanic a horrid that it was it was just been sort of wandering it was just been sort of wandering it was just been sort of wandering around Europe for like 15 years would around Europe for like 15 years would around Europe for like 15 years would constantly come back around and the constantly come back around and the constantly come back around and the north so the northern border was very north so the northern border was very north so the northern border was very insecure so I think it was it was a it insecure so I think it was it was a it insecure so I think it was it was a it was a matter of just like like in this was a matter of just like like in this was a matter of just like like in this emergency situation we need to raise men emergency situation we need to raise men emergency situation we need to raise men and we need to raise a lot of men so and we need to raise a lot of men so and we need to raise a lot of men so yeah just go ahead and do it and I think yeah just go ahead and do it and I think yeah just go ahead and do it and I think from that point on they just sort of

from that point on they just sort of from that point on they just sort of realized that that this was this was a realized that that this was this was a realized that that this was this was a way to keep up with the manpower needs way to keep up with the manpower needs way to keep up with the manpower needs that their empire now had they were no that their empire now had they were no that their empire now had they were no longer just this little city-state that longer just this little city-state that longer just this little city-state that was occasionally skirmishing with the was occasionally skirmishing with the was occasionally skirmishing with the Samnites down around kapwa this is you Samnites down around kapwa this is you Samnites down around kapwa this is you know we have we have Garrison's we need know we have we have Garrison's we need know we have we have Garrison's we need to be filling in Spain and North Africa to be filling in Spain and North Africa to be filling in Spain and North Africa and up in Gaul and as a as they move and up in Gaul and as a as they move and up in Gaul and as a as they move into Gaul the Macedonian frontier over into Gaul the Macedonian frontier over into Gaul the Macedonian frontier over in Greece they're now they're now in in Greece they're now they're now in in Greece they're now they're now in charge of Western Turkey how are we charge of Western Turkey how are we charge of Western Turkey how are we gonna keep the legions filled I think gonna keep the legions filled I think gonna keep the legions filled I think once I think once they made the decision once I think once they made the decision once I think once they made the decision to go over to like let's just drop this to go over to like let's just drop this to go over to like let's just drop this property requirement in general I think property requirement in general I think property requirement in general I think it was fairly wildly successful in terms it was fairly wildly successful in terms it was fairly wildly successful in terms of their ability to raise the men needed of their ability to raise the men needed of their ability to raise the men needed to run their empire and then you know to run their empire and then you know to run their empire and then you know how does how does that move over to how does how does that move over to how does how does that move over to the real danger point which is people the real danger point which is people the real danger point which is people raising personal armies and I think a raising personal armies and I think a raising personal armies and I think a lot of this like like a decent-enough lot of this like like a decent-enough lot of this like like a decent-enough analogy like not exactly is like a analogy like not exactly is like a analogy like not exactly is like a political party going and looking for a political party going and looking for a political party going and looking for a candidate who can self finance their candidate who can self finance their candidate who can self finance their campaign political parties at the state campaign political parties at the state campaign political parties at the state level at the national level always love level at the national level always love level at the national level always love a candidate who can walk in and say oh a candidate who can walk in and say oh a candidate who can walk in and say oh by the way like the party doesn't need by the way like the party doesn't need by the way like the party doesn't need to give me any money I'll just do I'll to give me any money I'll just do I'll to give me any money I'll just do I'll just do this all out of my own pocket just do this all out of my own pocket just do this all out of my own pocket because I'm you know I'm a hedge fund because I'm you know I'm a hedge fund because I'm you know I'm a hedge fund manager I am a an owner of a business or manager I am a an owner of a business or manager I am a an owner of a business or like Michael Bloomberg is just like like Michael Bloomberg is just like like Michael Bloomberg is just like whatever it is that he's sitting on top whatever it is that he's sitting on top whatever it is that he's sitting on top of right like he's like the Democratic of right like he's like the Democratic of right like he's like the Democratic Party didn't need to give him any money Party didn't need to give him any money Party didn't need to give him any money he could just do it all himself and the he could just do it all himself and the he could just do it all himself and the same was really true of later of people

same was really true of later of people same was really true of later of people like Pompey who could say hey I'm gonna like Pompey who could say hey I'm gonna like Pompey who could say hey I'm gonna go I can go raise my own army like you go I can go raise my own army like you go I can go raise my own army like you don't even you don't even have to worry don't even you don't even have to worry don't even you don't even have to worry about it like you elect me console I'll about it like you elect me console I'll about it like you elect me console I'll do all the work for you that's a that's do all the work for you that's a that's do all the work for you that's a that's a very that's a very immediately a very that's a very immediately a very that's a very immediately attractive proposition for most people attractive proposition for most people attractive proposition for most people especially out there maybe you don't especially out there maybe you don't especially out there maybe you don't want to go to war but you have a want to go to war but you have a want to go to war but you have a candidate who's like don't worry I'll candidate who's like don't worry I'll candidate who's like don't worry I'll get my guys myself and you don't have to get my guys myself and you don't have to get my guys myself and you don't have to do it if you don't want to that's where do it if you don't want to that's where do it if you don't want to that's where you start getting these personal legions you start getting these personal legions you start getting these personal legions being raised and once those personal being raised and once those personal being raised and once those personal legions are being raised again now we're legions are being raised again now we're legions are being raised again now we're just you know the late Republic is just just you know the late Republic is just just you know the late Republic is just a clash of warlords and that is really a clash of warlords and that is really a clash of warlords and that is really right now where you look at it and you right now where you look at it and you right now where you look at it and you say okay I see some similarities but say okay I see some similarities but say okay I see some similarities but there are some real big differences and there are some real big differences and there are some real big differences and we haven't gotten there yet right sure we haven't gotten there yet right sure we haven't gotten there yet right sure and I I mean honestly like the military and I I mean honestly like the military and I I mean honestly like the military thing you know the United States has thing you know the United States has thing you know the United States has gone through a bit of a similar process gone through a bit of a similar process gone through a bit of a similar process after Vietnam where we said we're no after Vietnam where we said we're no after Vietnam where we said we're no longer gonna do this like temporary longer gonna do this like temporary longer gonna do this like temporary conscription into an army to go off and conscription into an army to go off and conscription into an army to go off and fight and instead we're gonna make it fight and instead we're gonna make it fight and instead we're gonna make it all volunteer and an all professional all volunteer and an all professional all volunteer and an all professional right I mean that's a similarity but right I mean that's a similarity but right I mean that's a similarity but there's so much about the institutional there's so much about the institutional there's so much about the institutional what the US Army the US Navy what the US Army the US Navy what the US Army the US Navy institutionally is does not resemble the institutionally is does not resemble the institutionally is does not resemble the personal warlord legions of the late personal warlord legions of the late personal warlord legions of the late Republic right like the paymaster is not Republic right like the paymaster is not Republic right like the paymaster is not your colonel the paymaster is really your colonel the paymaster is really your colonel the paymaster is really it's the United States of America and we it's the United States of America and we it's the United States of America and we can you know our checks don't ever can you know our checks don't ever can you know our checks don't ever bounce when they go out there to some bounce when they go out there to some bounce when they go out there to some private or some sergeant or some major private or some sergeant or some major private or some sergeant or some major so you don't have them being loyal so you don't have them being loyal so you don't have them being loyal specifically to just one just one

specifically to just one just one specifically to just one just one commander out there and then I have also commander out there and then I have also commander out there and then I have also heard you know I've had the good fortune heard you know I've had the good fortune heard you know I've had the good fortune to be friends with lots of veterans guys to be friends with lots of veterans guys to be friends with lots of veterans guys who were in the military now or who have who were in the military now or who have who were in the military now or who have left and are now veterans just back out left and are now veterans just back out left and are now veterans just back out in the civilian world with the rest of in the civilian world with the rest of in the civilian world with the rest of us that I mean there's enough that goes us that I mean there's enough that goes us that I mean there's enough that goes on with troop rotations right where on with troop rotations right where on with troop rotations right where you're kind of bouncing between units you're kind of bouncing between units you're kind of bouncing between units you're never forming one of these like you're never forming one of these like you're never forming one of these like 20-year long bonds where you guys have 20-year long bonds where you guys have 20-year long bonds where you guys have all been serving together forever so I all been serving together forever so I all been serving together forever so I don't I I don't fear right now like the don't I I don't fear right now like the don't I I don't fear right now like the role of the US Army in some kind of in role of the US Army in some kind of in role of the US Army in some kind of in some kind of war Lord style clash I some kind of war Lord style clash I some kind of war Lord style clash I don't see it happening any time soon one don't see it happening any time soon one don't see it happening any time soon one of the great firewalls that's actually of the great firewalls that's actually of the great firewalls that's actually working still right listen is there working still right listen is there working still right listen is there anything Mike that I didn't ask you anything Mike that I didn't ask you anything Mike that I didn't ask you about that you want to make sure we know about that you want to make sure we know about that you want to make sure we know about the book or some of the story I about the book or some of the story I about the book or some of the story I specifically focused on the things you specifically focused on the things you specifically focused on the things you know that I was interested in but know that I was interested in but know that I was interested in but there's a heck of a lot in this piece there's a heck of a lot in this piece there's a heck of a lot in this piece what else should the listeners know well what else should the listeners know well what else should the listeners know well I think I think the one thing that we I think I think the one thing that we I think I think the one thing that we didn't touch on that is a that is a didn't touch on that is a that is a didn't touch on that is a that is a pretty major part of the book that has pretty major part of the book that has pretty major part of the book that has its similarities to the United States is its similarities to the United States is its similarities to the United States is this issue of the non the non Roman this issue of the non the non Roman this issue of the non the non Roman Italians well sure sure yeah we're just Italians well sure sure yeah we're just Italians well sure sure yeah we're just in case you don't know the backstory of in case you don't know the backstory of in case you don't know the backstory of this here well do it real quick is that this here well do it real quick is that this here well do it real quick is that when Rome conquered Italy during the when Rome conquered Italy during the when Rome conquered Italy during the Samnite Wars which is a couple hundred Samnite Wars which is a couple hundred Samnite Wars which is a couple hundred years before you know my book comes years before you know my book comes years before you know my book comes along the Romans did not annex these along the Romans did not annex these along the Romans did not annex these people directly into the Roman state people directly into the Roman state people directly into the Roman state they instead signed these these treaties they instead signed these these treaties they instead signed these these treaties with a city so a city in a trio or a with a city so a city in a trio or a with a city so a city in a trio or a city in Umbria would then become merely

city in Umbria would then become merely city in Umbria would then become merely an ally of Rome and whenever the Romans an ally of Rome and whenever the Romans an ally of Rome and whenever the Romans came around to ask for legionaries for came around to ask for legionaries for came around to ask for legionaries for the armies the city had to provide them the armies the city had to provide them the armies the city had to provide them but other than that they were mostly but other than that they were mostly but other than that they were mostly left to their own devices they could left to their own devices they could left to their own devices they could govern themselves they weren't really govern themselves they weren't really govern themselves they weren't really taxed that heavily but what happens is taxed that heavily but what happens is taxed that heavily but what happens is when you get to the period of my book a when you get to the period of my book a when you get to the period of my book a couple hundred years later these guys couple hundred years later these guys couple hundred years later these guys had been inside of Roman civilization in had been inside of Roman civilization in had been inside of Roman civilization in every meaningful way for hundreds of every meaningful way for hundreds of every meaningful way for hundreds of years and yet they were still you years and yet they were still you years and yet they were still you couldn't even call them second-class couldn't even call them second-class couldn't even call them second-class citizens they were not citizens at all citizens they were not citizens at all citizens they were not citizens at all and they're facing the same problems the and they're facing the same problems the and they're facing the same problems the same economic problems that their Roman same economic problems that their Roman same economic problems that their Roman cousins are except they don't even have cousins are except they don't even have cousins are except they don't even have the right to vote in an assembly they the right to vote in an assembly they the right to vote in an assembly they don't even have the right to send Canada don't even have the right to send Canada don't even have the right to send Canada for office and be like well hey what for office and be like well hey what for office and be like well hey what about us so they were on top of about us so they were on top of about us so they were on top of everything else they they were facing everything else they they were facing everything else they they were facing economic economic problems and also economic economic problems and also economic economic problems and also didn't have any kind of political voice didn't have any kind of political voice didn't have any kind of political voice at all and so that combines with the at all and so that combines with the at all and so that combines with the sort of the general problems that are sort of the general problems that are sort of the general problems that are created by the skyrocketing economic created by the skyrocketing economic created by the skyrocketing economic inequality that leads to a popular a inequality that leads to a popular a inequality that leads to a popular a style confrontational style of politics style confrontational style of politics style confrontational style of politics that now defines that now defines the that now defines that now defines the that now defines that now defines the Republic in that entire force of again Republic in that entire force of again Republic in that entire force of again like energy I guess you could call it like energy I guess you could call it like energy I guess you could call it the Italian question is what ultimately the Italian question is what ultimately the Italian question is what ultimately triggers the great civil wars of Marius triggers the great civil wars of Marius triggers the great civil wars of Marius and Sylla is the Italians constantly and Sylla is the Italians constantly and Sylla is the Italians constantly demanding citizenship the Romans demanding citizenship the Romans demanding citizenship the Romans constantly saying we're not gonna give constantly saying we're not gonna give constantly saying we're not gonna give you citizenship and what it finally you citizenship and what it finally you citizenship and what it finally takes is a massive bloody and takes is a massive bloody and takes is a massive bloody and destructive civil war where the Italians destructive civil war where the Italians destructive civil war where the Italians are not trying to break away from Roman

are not trying to break away from Roman are not trying to break away from Roman rule they're trying to force their way rule they're trying to force their way rule they're trying to force their way into Roman rule it was a it's gonna be a into Roman rule it was a it's gonna be a into Roman rule it was a it's gonna be a war on behalf of political equality war on behalf of political equality war on behalf of political equality rather than a war premise non political rather than a war premise non political rather than a war premise non political independence so that's that's like the independence so that's that's like the independence so that's that's like the other big thing that's floating around other big thing that's floating around other big thing that's floating around out there but other than that you just out there but other than that you just out there but other than that you just you just read the book and I'll explain you just read the book and I'll explain you just read the book and I'll explain it all to you as one of my professors it all to you as one of my professors it all to you as one of my professors said every educated person in the said every educated person in the said every educated person in the Western world should know the story that Western world should know the story that Western world should know the story that Mike Duncan catalogues in the storm Mike Duncan catalogues in the storm Mike Duncan catalogues in the storm before the storm the beginning of the before the storm the beginning of the before the storm the beginning of the end of the Roman Republic Mike thank you end of the Roman Republic Mike thank you end of the Roman Republic Mike thank you for coming on the program I wish you the for coming on the program I wish you the for coming on the program I wish you the greatest success thank you very much greatest success thank you very much greatest success thank you very much like I said I think that this is that I like I said I think that this is that I like I said I think that this is that I think you could not have chosen a better think you could not have chosen a better think you could not have chosen a better subject and I agree with you it's subject and I agree with you it's subject and I agree with you it's shocking that this doesn't already have shocking that this doesn't already have shocking that this doesn't already have twenty books on the bookshelf about this twenty books on the bookshelf about this twenty books on the bookshelf about this considering how awesome and like you I considering how awesome and like you I considering how awesome and like you I mean it's you know it's hard to initiate mean it's you know it's hard to initiate mean it's you know it's hard to initiate enough disclaimers where you tell people enough disclaimers where you tell people enough disclaimers where you tell people okay there's so many different things okay there's so many different things okay there's so many different things it's not really like us but look at all it's not really like us but look at all it's not really like us but look at all these things that are like us you know these things that are like us you know these things that are like us you know yeah I figure if you're gonna do it yeah I figure if you're gonna do it yeah I figure if you're gonna do it because like one of the things that I because like one of the things that I because like one of the things that I always push against is that I don't always push against is that I don't always push against is that I don't think that we're anywhere near like the think that we're anywhere near like the think that we're anywhere near like the fall of Rome right which is which is fall of Rome right which is which is fall of Rome right which is which is something that you hear from people like something that you hear from people like something that you hear from people like oh the Syrian refugees are just like the oh the Syrian refugees are just like the oh the Syrian refugees are just like the Vandals no not really Vandals no not really Vandals no not really wait do we start killing each other over wait do we start killing each other over wait do we start killing each other over political things then we're starting to political things then we're starting to political things then we're starting to move a little bit well I mean yeah like move a little bit well I mean yeah like move a little bit well I mean yeah like if if we actually have like a mass if if we actually have like a mass if if we actually have like a mass migrating population that has like an migrating population that has like an migrating population that has like an entire impure entire impure entire impure entire armed force they can go entire armed force they can go entire armed force they can go toe-to-toe with the US Army then I guess toe-to-toe with the US Army then I guess toe-to-toe with the US Army then I guess yeah we can start talking about it but I yeah we can start talking about it but I yeah we can start talking about it but I don't think we're anywhere near that I don't think we're anywhere near that I don't think we're anywhere near that I think you're 300 dead senators with

think you're 300 dead senators with think you're 300 dead senators with Tiberius Krakus I think that's the Tiberius Krakus I think that's the Tiberius Krakus I think that's the moment where the sea change would happen moment where the sea change would happen moment where the sea change would happen yeah I think I think that that period of yeah I think I think that that period of yeah I think I think that that period of the croc eyes is enough that I'm happy the croc eyes is enough that I'm happy the croc eyes is enough that I'm happy to now insert this idea into people's to now insert this idea into people's to now insert this idea into people's heads and say no like this is the period heads and say no like this is the period heads and say no like this is the period we need to be paying attention yes it's we need to be paying attention yes it's we need to be paying attention yes it's very important exactly it's not just for very important exactly it's not just for very important exactly it's not just for interesting per its in that's what my interesting per its in that's what my interesting per its in that's what my professor was pointing out that if professor was pointing out that if professor was pointing out that if you're an American in this system this you're an American in this system this you're an American in this system this is a story that our founding fathers is a story that our founding fathers is a story that our founding fathers thought was worth knowing probably for thought was worth knowing probably for thought was worth knowing probably for an informed citizenry of a modern an informed citizenry of a modern an informed citizenry of a modern commercial imperial republic might be a commercial imperial republic might be a commercial imperial republic might be a good idea to buy Mike Duncan's book so good idea to buy Mike Duncan's book so good idea to buy Mike Duncan's book so that's the way I'm gonna phrase it if that's the way I'm gonna phrase it if that's the way I'm gonna phrase it if dude if I can do anything for you I'm dude if I can do anything for you I'm dude if I can do anything for you I'm here okay great here okay great here okay great I really appreciate it that was fun my I really appreciate it that was fun my I really appreciate it that was fun my thanks to Mike Duncan it was great to thanks to Mike Duncan it was great to thanks to Mike Duncan it was great to finally digitally interact with him go finally digitally interact with him go finally digitally interact with him go out and pick up the storm before the out and pick up the storm before the out and pick up the storm before the storm we will link to it on our website storm we will link to it on our website storm we will link to it on our website if you pick it up through Amazon if you pick it up through Amazon if you pick it up through Amazon why don't you do so through our search why don't you do so through our search why don't you do so through our search window at Dan Carlin comm and that will window at Dan Carlin comm and that will window at Dan Carlin comm and that will help us out - sure the older hardcore help us out - sure the older hardcore help us out - sure the older hardcore history shows can be a bit traumatic history shows can be a bit traumatic history shows can be a bit traumatic with titles like death throes of the with titles like death throes of the with titles like death throes of the Republic judgment at Nineveh and Republic judgment at Nineveh and Republic judgment at Nineveh and addicted to bondage we just consider addicted to bondage we just consider addicted to bondage we just consider that to be truth in advertising no pain that to be truth in advertising no pain that to be truth in advertising no pain no gain is our motto pick up the entire no gain is our motto pick up the entire no gain is our motto pick up the entire catalog from Dan Carlin com