EP18 Iranian Interconnections

The guest we're going to have on today The guest we're going to have on today is talking about a subject that is near is talking about a subject that is near is talking about a subject that is near and dear to my heart. and dear to my heart. and dear to my heart. I first fell in love I first fell in love I first fell in love with what I would have called Persian with what I would have called Persian with what I would have called Persian civilization as a teenager um by civilization as a teenager um by civilization as a teenager um by studying ancient history and the studying ancient history and the studying ancient history and the Persians are in one of their Persians are in one of their Persians are in one of their you know, perhaps their greatest period you know, perhaps their greatest period you know, perhaps their greatest period depends on how you depends on how you depends on how you define greatest, but perhaps the define greatest, but perhaps the define greatest, but perhaps the greatest period in their history, but greatest period in their history, but greatest period in their history, but they've had many they've had many they've had many and of course the um and of course the um and of course the um long time antagonist in the ancient long time antagonist in the ancient long time antagonist in the ancient world of the Greeks and and so you get world of the Greeks and and so you get world of the Greeks and and so you get caught up in the the romance and the and caught up in the the romance and the and caught up in the the romance and the and the fascinating the fascinating the fascinating involvement the Persians had in the involvement the Persians had in the involvement the Persians had in the region then you start studying how often region then you start studying how often region then you start studying how often they have that involvement and you begin they have that involvement and you begin they have that involvement and you begin to understand that this is a traditional to understand that this is a traditional to understand that this is a traditional regional superpower. regional superpower. regional superpower. And then right when I'm really getting And then right when I'm really getting And then right when I'm really getting heavily into my interest in Persia heavily into my interest in Persia heavily into my interest in Persia uh the situation with the modern nation uh the situation with the modern nation uh the situation with the modern nation of Iran takes a 180° turn. of Iran takes a 180° turn. of Iran takes a 180° turn. When I was a kid, Iran was a nation When I was a kid, Iran was a nation When I was a kid, Iran was a nation friendly to the United States. In fact, friendly to the United States. In fact, friendly to the United States. In fact, one of our best friends.

one of our best friends. one of our best friends. The shift to a a fundamentalist religion The shift to a a fundamentalist religion The shift to a a fundamentalist religion backed revolution backed revolution backed revolution where the United States was the great where the United States was the great where the United States was the great Satan was Satan was Satan was an unbelievable turn of events. an unbelievable turn of events. an unbelievable turn of events. Not just for the United States, but for Not just for the United States, but for Not just for the United States, but for the entire world stage in terms of what the entire world stage in terms of what the entire world stage in terms of what it did to things. it did to things. it did to things. And many people have been born since And many people have been born since And many people have been born since without any memory of a friendly Iran at without any memory of a friendly Iran at without any memory of a friendly Iran at all. all. all. John Gasvian John Gasvian John Gasvian uh is going to talk to us today well, uh is going to talk to us today well, uh is going to talk to us today well, basically about anything I ask him basically about anything I ask him basically about anything I ask him about. So, the deficiencies in the about. So, the deficiencies in the about. So, the deficiencies in the conversation are yours truly not asking conversation are yours truly not asking conversation are yours truly not asking more questions about more things. I more questions about more things. I more questions about more things. I remember looking at the clock and remember looking at the clock and remember looking at the clock and thinking, "Wow, I've I've kept this thinking, "Wow, I've I've kept this thinking, "Wow, I've I've kept this historian here a long time. I don't want historian here a long time. I don't want historian here a long time. I don't want to keep him all day, but boy, I never to keep him all day, but boy, I never to keep him all day, but boy, I never even got to X, Y, and Z." So, that's my even got to X, Y, and Z." So, that's my even got to X, Y, and Z." So, that's my fault. fault. fault. And I do owe uh And I do owe uh And I do owe uh John Gasvian and you all an apology for John Gasvian and you all an apology for John Gasvian and you all an apology for the way this sounds. Um you know, we the way this sounds. Um you know, we the way this sounds. Um you know, we have several methods for doing have several methods for doing have several methods for doing interviews, remote interviews. They all interviews, remote interviews. They all interviews, remote interviews. They all sound great some of the time and then sound great some of the time and then sound great some of the time and then let you down other times. So, let you down other times. So, let you down other times. So, uh we'll try something different next uh we'll try something different next uh we'll try something different next time. So, my apologies to everyone time. So, my apologies to everyone time. So, my apologies to everyone involved. Uh any mistakes are purely my involved. Uh any mistakes are purely my involved. Uh any mistakes are purely my own or you know own or you know own or you know imaginary creatures who imaginary creatures who imaginary creatures who shall be unnamed. I'll share the um shall be unnamed. I'll share the um shall be unnamed. I'll share the um the blame maybe.

the blame maybe. the blame maybe. In any case, without further ado the In any case, without further ado the In any case, without further ado the fabulously interesting John Gasvian fabulously interesting John Gasvian fabulously interesting John Gasvian talking about the American and Iranian talking about the American and Iranian talking about the American and Iranian relationship and you know, some history relationship and you know, some history relationship and you know, some history and um if you don't know Iranian history and um if you don't know Iranian history and um if you don't know Iranian history by the way or you want to understand by the way or you want to understand by the way or you want to understand better the traditional place of Iran in better the traditional place of Iran in better the traditional place of Iran in the region the region the region well, this is the well, this is the well, this is the tinny sounding interview you've been tinny sounding interview you've been tinny sounding interview you've been waiting for. Hello. Hello. Hello Dr. Gasvian, it's Dan. Can you Hello Dr. Gasvian, it's Dan. Can you Hello Dr. Gasvian, it's Dan. Can you hear me? hear me? hear me? Yes, hello. Let's start off with Yes, hello. Let's start off with Yes, hello. Let's start off with perceptions here because I grew up in an perceptions here because I grew up in an perceptions here because I grew up in an era era era um where I mean, I was 15 in 1980 and I um where I mean, I was 15 in 1980 and I um where I mean, I was 15 in 1980 and I was politically aware. And so, growing was politically aware. And so, growing was politically aware. And so, growing up Iran was a country that the United up Iran was a country that the United up Iran was a country that the United States was really friendly with. And so, States was really friendly with. And so, States was really friendly with. And so, unlike a lot of Americans born after unlike a lot of Americans born after unlike a lot of Americans born after that time period who've only seen Iran that time period who've only seen Iran that time period who've only seen Iran in sort of an adversarial sort of sense, in sort of an adversarial sort of sense, in sort of an adversarial sort of sense, I remember the country as one of our I remember the country as one of our I remember the country as one of our greatest friends in the world and maybe greatest friends in the world and maybe greatest friends in the world and maybe our greatest friend arguably our our greatest friend arguably our our greatest friend arguably our greatest friend in that important region greatest friend in that important region greatest friend in that important region of the world. When you go out there of the world. When you go out there of the world. When you go out there today and you want to talk to people today and you want to talk to people today and you want to talk to people about a book that talks about Iran, what about a book that talks about Iran, what about a book that talks about Iran, what kind of sort of feedback are are you kind of sort of feedback are are you kind of sort of feedback are are you getting from the countries um that were getting from the countries um that were getting from the countries um that were on the opposite side of things like, you on the opposite side of things like, you on the opposite side of things like, you know, the hostage taking in 1980 and all know, the hostage taking in 1980 and all know, the hostage taking in 1980 and all that. Have have attitudes sort of that. Have have attitudes sort of that. Have have attitudes sort of changed or evolved or or I mean, what changed or evolved or or I mean, what changed or evolved or or I mean, what are you hearing back from uh from are you hearing back from uh from are you hearing back from uh from feedback I guess is what I want to know.

feedback I guess is what I want to know. feedback I guess is what I want to know. Yes, no, that's very interesting. Yeah, Yes, no, that's very interesting. Yeah, Yes, no, that's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right when you I mean, you're absolutely right when you I mean, you're absolutely right when you say that the 1970s in many ways were a say that the 1970s in many ways were a say that the 1970s in many ways were a sort of heyday sort of heyday sort of heyday of US-Iran relations. Uh you know, the of US-Iran relations. Uh you know, the of US-Iran relations. Uh you know, the United States or rather, excuse me, Iran United States or rather, excuse me, Iran United States or rather, excuse me, Iran was portrayed very positively in the was portrayed very positively in the was portrayed very positively in the United States. So, it was a time United States. So, it was a time United States. So, it was a time when Iran was seen as this kind of uh when Iran was seen as this kind of uh when Iran was seen as this kind of uh glamorous uh glamorous uh glamorous uh kingdom to the east of everything that kingdom to the east of everything that kingdom to the east of everything that was threatening uh you know, this is a was threatening uh you know, this is a was threatening uh you know, this is a time time time when when the Americans thought of the when when the Americans thought of the when when the Americans thought of the Middle East, they thought of Middle East, they thought of Middle East, they thought of Arab-Israeli conflict, the Arab oil Arab-Israeli conflict, the Arab oil Arab-Israeli conflict, the Arab oil embargo, uh you embargo, uh you embargo, uh you socialist governments in various Arab socialist governments in various Arab socialist governments in various Arab states, the Cold War. It was not a very states, the Cold War. It was not a very states, the Cold War. It was not a very positive impression, but when they positive impression, but when they positive impression, but when they looked at Iran, they saw a country that looked at Iran, they saw a country that looked at Iran, they saw a country that was just slightly to the east of all of was just slightly to the east of all of was just slightly to the east of all of that, but it was that, but it was that, but it was um you know, had a friendly pro-American um you know, had a friendly pro-American um you know, had a friendly pro-American king uh who you know, had this uh sort king uh who you know, had this uh sort king uh who you know, had this uh sort of beautiful glamorous wife and had this of beautiful glamorous wife and had this of beautiful glamorous wife and had this very uh fancy coronation ceremony in very uh fancy coronation ceremony in very uh fancy coronation ceremony in 1971 that was 1971 that was 1971 that was broadcast live by satellite into broadcast live by satellite into broadcast live by satellite into American television. You know, so it was American television. You know, so it was American television. You know, so it was a it was a very positive impression and a it was a very positive impression and a it was a very positive impression and it's very easy to forget that because it's very easy to forget that because it's very easy to forget that because not that many people these days do not that many people these days do not that many people these days do remember the remember the remember the uh that period anymore. Um uh that period anymore. Um uh that period anymore. Um you know, at the same time though, that you know, at the same time though, that you know, at the same time though, that you know, that was a a state-to-state you know, that was a a state-to-state you know, that was a a state-to-state relationship that was very positive.

relationship that was very positive. relationship that was very positive. Uh but there was a Uh but there was a Uh but there was a huge current of underground resentment huge current of underground resentment huge current of underground resentment that was building against the Shah, the that was building against the Shah, the that was building against the Shah, the king of Iran. king of Iran. king of Iran. Uh and you know, he was so closely Uh and you know, he was so closely Uh and you know, he was so closely associated with the United States in the associated with the United States in the associated with the United States in the minds of his people and he had become minds of his people and he had become minds of his people and he had become extremely unpopular. extremely unpopular. extremely unpopular. Uh so, of course, that backlash uh Uh so, of course, that backlash uh Uh so, of course, that backlash uh reflected on the United States uh as reflected on the United States uh as reflected on the United States uh as well. But to answer your question about well. But to answer your question about well. But to answer your question about the kind of reception and feedback I'm the kind of reception and feedback I'm the kind of reception and feedback I'm getting from the book, I mean, I think getting from the book, I mean, I think getting from the book, I mean, I think people are uh surprised to learn that people are uh surprised to learn that people are uh surprised to learn that our history with Iran goes back as far our history with Iran goes back as far our history with Iran goes back as far as it does. as it does. as it does. You know, there's a tendency to look at You know, there's a tendency to look at You know, there's a tendency to look at the last 40 years of antagonism the last 40 years of antagonism the last 40 years of antagonism uh to focus on kind of where it all went uh to focus on kind of where it all went uh to focus on kind of where it all went wrong, whose fault it is. Uh and I was wrong, whose fault it is. Uh and I was wrong, whose fault it is. Uh and I was trying to do something different with trying to do something different with trying to do something different with the book, which is to say that, you the book, which is to say that, you the book, which is to say that, you know, history is not about laying blame know, history is not about laying blame know, history is not about laying blame or looking for who started it. It's not or looking for who started it. It's not or looking for who started it. It's not a courtroom. a courtroom. a courtroom. Uh it's about understanding kind of how Uh it's about understanding kind of how Uh it's about understanding kind of how we got to where we are. the overwhelming we got to where we are. the overwhelming we got to where we are. the overwhelming majority of Iran and America's 200, majority of Iran and America's 200, majority of Iran and America's 200, 300-year history has been one of 300-year history has been one of 300-year history has been one of mutual admiration, mutual fascination, mutual admiration, mutual fascination, mutual admiration, mutual fascination, mutual idealization. mutual idealization. mutual idealization. And a very friendly history for a lot of And a very friendly history for a lot of And a very friendly history for a lot of its uh a lot of its time.

its uh a lot of its time. its uh a lot of its time. I would argue that it's actually the I would argue that it's actually the I would argue that it's actually the timing on the book seems fortuitous to timing on the book seems fortuitous to timing on the book seems fortuitous to me because I think that um it seems to me because I think that um it seems to me because I think that um it seems to me ripe for in the near future some sort me ripe for in the near future some sort me ripe for in the near future some sort of breakthrough, I would say. And one of of breakthrough, I would say. And one of of breakthrough, I would say. And one of the things that's so different and I'm the things that's so different and I'm the things that's so different and I'm sure you can speak to this, but I'd like sure you can speak to this, but I'd like sure you can speak to this, but I'd like to go back in some sort of linear order to go back in some sort of linear order to go back in some sort of linear order at a certain point. But now you've got at a certain point. But now you've got at a certain point. But now you've got me talking about uh Iranian um sometimes me talking about uh Iranian um sometimes me talking about uh Iranian um sometimes they refer to themselves as Persian they refer to themselves as Persian they refer to themselves as Persian expatriate communities in the United expatriate communities in the United expatriate communities in the United States that that played a similar role States that that played a similar role States that that played a similar role in terms of coming to this country after in terms of coming to this country after in terms of coming to this country after the revolution that the Vietnamese who the revolution that the Vietnamese who the revolution that the Vietnamese who were our friends in South Vietnam, who were our friends in South Vietnam, who were our friends in South Vietnam, who fled South Vietnam and became uh part of fled South Vietnam and became uh part of fled South Vietnam and became uh part of communities that have grown up since communities that have grown up since communities that have grown up since then in the United States. I knew quite then in the United States. I knew quite then in the United States. I knew quite a bit of Persians who who were fleeing a bit of Persians who who were fleeing a bit of Persians who who were fleeing the revolution growing up, Iranians. Um the revolution growing up, Iranians. Um the revolution growing up, Iranians. Um and it it was one of those things where and it it was one of those things where and it it was one of those things where I remember thinking, "God, in so many I remember thinking, "God, in so many I remember thinking, "God, in so many ways they have a lot of similarities ways they have a lot of similarities ways they have a lot of similarities with Americans. They're fun-loving with Americans. They're fun-loving with Americans. They're fun-loving people. They like to dance. They're a people. They like to dance. They're a people. They like to dance. They're a mercantile people." I mean, there's all mercantile people." I mean, there's all mercantile people." I mean, there's all these little stereotypical adjectives these little stereotypical adjectives these little stereotypical adjectives you could use to describe the Iranians you could use to describe the Iranians you could use to describe the Iranians which when you think about it and you which when you think about it and you which when you think about it and you you realize, "Well, they're kind of you realize, "Well, they're kind of you realize, "Well, they're kind of natural friends in a way." And and the natural friends in a way." And and the natural friends in a way." And and the period of time that we're in right now period of time that we're in right now period of time that we're in right now seems like 15, 20 years from now we seems like 15, 20 years from now we seems like 15, 20 years from now we could look back on as a weird anomaly.

could look back on as a weird anomaly. could look back on as a weird anomaly. Let's talk about that history though Let's talk about that history though Let's talk about that history though that you refer to. I mean in Western that you refer to. I mean in Western that you refer to. I mean in Western eyes, Iran was Persia, right? All the eyes, Iran was Persia, right? All the eyes, Iran was Persia, right? All the way back to Herodotus and all that. And way back to Herodotus and all that. And way back to Herodotus and all that. And then as you point out, the real early then as you point out, the real early then as you point out, the real early history of Iran with Western countries history of Iran with Western countries history of Iran with Western countries is like the Great Game stuff with Russia is like the Great Game stuff with Russia is like the Great Game stuff with Russia and Great Britain. Can you talk about and Great Britain. Can you talk about and Great Britain. Can you talk about that a little bit cuz by the time the US that a little bit cuz by the time the US that a little bit cuz by the time the US arrives on the scene Britain and Russia arrives on the scene Britain and Russia arrives on the scene Britain and Russia have been active in the region for some have been active in the region for some have been active in the region for some time. time. time. Sure, this is in fact what uh gets Iran Sure, this is in fact what uh gets Iran Sure, this is in fact what uh gets Iran and the Iranian government interested in and the Iranian government interested in and the Iranian government interested in the United States in the first place. the United States in the first place. the United States in the first place. Uh the Iran or you know, the Persian Uh the Iran or you know, the Persian Uh the Iran or you know, the Persian empire or whatever you want to call it empire or whatever you want to call it empire or whatever you want to call it historically of hundreds of years historically of hundreds of years historically of hundreds of years had reached a point by the early 19th had reached a point by the early 19th had reached a point by the early 19th century uh where it was declining like century uh where it was declining like century uh where it was declining like other Asian powers of of its day and the other Asian powers of of its day and the other Asian powers of of its day and the Middle Eastern powers, the Ottoman Middle Eastern powers, the Ottoman Middle Eastern powers, the Ottoman empire and others. empire and others. empire and others. Uh it was much less powerful than it had Uh it was much less powerful than it had Uh it was much less powerful than it had been. Um and was very was bitterly aware been. Um and was very was bitterly aware been. Um and was very was bitterly aware of the fact that that of the fact that that of the fact that that you know, European powers were you know, European powers were you know, European powers were surpassing uh it uh both economically, surpassing uh it uh both economically, surpassing uh it uh both economically, militarily, politically, militarily, politically, militarily, politically, diplomatically.

diplomatically. diplomatically. Um and it was Um and it was Um and it was you know, Iran you know, Iran it's you know, Iran you know, Iran it's you know, Iran you know, Iran it's important to remember was not so was one important to remember was not so was one important to remember was not so was one of the very very huge country that has of the very very huge country that has of the very very huge country that has never been colonized formally by never been colonized formally by never been colonized formally by European power. It was a sovereign European power. It was a sovereign European power. It was a sovereign state, a kingdom that stretched back you state, a kingdom that stretched back you state, a kingdom that stretched back you know, millennia. Uh but had become so know, millennia. Uh but had become so know, millennia. Uh but had become so weak by the early you know, by sort of weak by the early you know, by sort of weak by the early you know, by sort of 1810s, 1820s uh that you know, its 1810s, 1820s uh that you know, its 1810s, 1820s uh that you know, its territory had been reduced significantly territory had been reduced significantly territory had been reduced significantly in wars. Uh very important war with in wars. Uh very important war with in wars. Uh very important war with Russia Russia Russia uh that trimmed even more of its uh that trimmed even more of its uh that trimmed even more of its territory. And you know, it was being territory. And you know, it was being territory. And you know, it was being pressured heavily by Russia from the pressured heavily by Russia from the pressured heavily by Russia from the north and by Britain and the British north and by Britain and the British north and by Britain and the British empire from the south from the Persian empire from the south from the Persian empire from the south from the Persian Gulf Gulf Gulf uh and Britain's positions in India. uh and Britain's positions in India. uh and Britain's positions in India. Um and you know, both of those two very Um and you know, both of those two very Um and you know, both of those two very very large powerful empires were really very large powerful empires were really very large powerful empires were really beginning to interfere significantly beginning to interfere significantly beginning to interfere significantly with any Iranian affairs and really pull with any Iranian affairs and really pull with any Iranian affairs and really pull the strings in many ways in the the strings in many ways in the the strings in many ways in the background. background. background. Uh so, it's also a great resentment for Uh so, it's also a great resentment for Uh so, it's also a great resentment for the Iranians uh and they wanted to have the Iranians uh and they wanted to have the Iranians uh and they wanted to have what was called a third force. This was what was called a third force. This was what was called a third force. This was a new sort of policy that was a new sort of policy that was a new sort of policy that was adopted from around the 1850s uh this adopted from around the 1850s uh this adopted from around the 1850s uh this idea that the country needed to adopt a idea that the country needed to adopt a idea that the country needed to adopt a third third third kind of friend uh that they could uh kind of friend uh that they could uh kind of friend uh that they could uh you know, sort of friendship that they you know, sort of friendship that they you know, sort of friendship that they could wave in the eyes of the British could wave in the eyes of the British could wave in the eyes of the British and the Russians and say, you know, you and the Russians and say, you know, you and the Russians and say, you know, you know, back off, you know, we don't need know, back off, you know, we don't need know, back off, you know, we don't need you. We have other allies.

you. We have other allies. you. We have other allies. And the United States seemed like a very And the United States seemed like a very And the United States seemed like a very obvious choice uh because the United obvious choice uh because the United obvious choice uh because the United States in the 1850s, 1860s States in the 1850s, 1860s States in the 1850s, 1860s was a country that Iranians didn't know was a country that Iranians didn't know was a country that Iranians didn't know that much about, but they what they that much about, but they what they that much about, but they what they knew, they really liked. What they knew knew, they really liked. What they knew knew, they really liked. What they knew was that this was a country that had was that this was a country that had was that this was a country that had come to into existence just less than a come to into existence just less than a come to into existence just less than a century earlier on the back of a century earlier on the back of a century earlier on the back of a revolution against the British Empire revolution against the British Empire revolution against the British Empire and that it seemed to not be interested and that it seemed to not be interested and that it seemed to not be interested in interfering in the affairs of other in interfering in the affairs of other in interfering in the affairs of other countries. countries. countries. The only Americans they knew were the The only Americans they knew were the The only Americans they knew were the Protestant Presbyterian missionaries who Protestant Presbyterian missionaries who Protestant Presbyterian missionaries who had come to Iran had come to Iran had come to Iran and built schools and clinics. and built schools and clinics. and built schools and clinics. But there was no American embassy, there But there was no American embassy, there But there was no American embassy, there was no you know there was no political was no you know there was no political was no you know there was no political diplomatic presence on the part of the diplomatic presence on the part of the diplomatic presence on the part of the US government and that kind of made the US government and that kind of made the US government and that kind of made the US this kind of alluring US this kind of alluring US this kind of alluring blank slate that seemed to have a very blank slate that seemed to have a very blank slate that seemed to have a very hands-off and and in some ways hands-off and and in some ways hands-off and and in some ways anti-imperialist kind of viewpoint. anti-imperialist kind of viewpoint. anti-imperialist kind of viewpoint. And so they began to cultivate an And so they began to cultivate an And so they began to cultivate an American friendship and every single American friendship and every single American friendship and every single Iranian government from the 1850s to Iranian government from the 1850s to Iranian government from the 1850s to about the 1940s made American friendship about the 1940s made American friendship about the 1940s made American friendship a key part of its foreign policy and a key part of its foreign policy and a key part of its foreign policy and to cultivate a sort of third force to cultivate a sort of third force to cultivate a sort of third force against the British and the Russians.

against the British and the Russians. against the British and the Russians. The anecdote I love to tell is that the The anecdote I love to tell is that the The anecdote I love to tell is that the very first disagreement that Iran and very first disagreement that Iran and very first disagreement that Iran and the United States ever had the United States ever had the United States ever had was in the 1850s when they were signing was in the 1850s when they were signing was in the 1850s when they were signing their first treaty of friendship. their first treaty of friendship. their first treaty of friendship. And the court it took 5 years to And the court it took 5 years to And the court it took 5 years to negotiate that. negotiate that. negotiate that. Longer than it took to negotiate the Longer than it took to negotiate the Longer than it took to negotiate the nuclear deal in 2015. nuclear deal in 2015. nuclear deal in 2015. And you think why? And you think why? And you think why? And it turns out one of their main And it turns out one of their main And it turns out one of their main sticking points was that the Iranians sticking points was that the Iranians sticking points was that the Iranians wanted to purchase American warships wanted to purchase American warships wanted to purchase American warships manned by American sailors flying the manned by American sailors flying the manned by American sailors flying the stars and stripes stars and stripes stars and stripes in the Persian Gulf to send a message to in the Persian Gulf to send a message to in the Persian Gulf to send a message to the British. the British. the British. And the Americans said no no we don't And the Americans said no no we don't And the Americans said no no we don't want to interfere in your affairs. want to interfere in your affairs. want to interfere in your affairs. It's incredible to think that was the It's incredible to think that was the It's incredible to think that was the first disagreement if you know first disagreement if you know first disagreement if you know Iranian-American politics today. Iranian-American politics today. Iranian-American politics today. But you know it was the Iranians saying But you know it was the Iranians saying But you know it was the Iranians saying to the US we want you more involved in to the US we want you more involved in to the US we want you more involved in our business. The US saying no no we our business. The US saying no no we our business. The US saying no no we don't want to get involved. So that's don't want to get involved. So that's don't want to get involved. So that's kind of how far we've come in 170 years. kind of how far we've come in 170 years. kind of how far we've come in 170 years. Now in this early period of connection Now in this early period of connection Now in this early period of connection between the two countries, how would you between the two countries, how would you between the two countries, how would you describe describe describe the governing system of Iran or Persia the governing system of Iran or Persia the governing system of Iran or Persia at this time? Is this an absolute at this time? Is this an absolute at this time? Is this an absolute monarchy or what do we have There's a monarchy or what do we have There's a monarchy or what do we have There's a parliament of sorts. How would you parliament of sorts. How would you parliament of sorts. How would you describe the system in modern sort of describe the system in modern sort of describe the system in modern sort of political science terms? Yeah in the political science terms? Yeah in the political science terms? Yeah in the 19th century it was it wasn't absolute 19th century it was it wasn't absolute 19th century it was it wasn't absolute monarchy like many monarch many monarchy like many monarch many monarchy like many monarch many governments in the world at the time but governments in the world at the time but governments in the world at the time but it was a weak monarchy. It did not have it was a weak monarchy. It did not have it was a weak monarchy. It did not have it did not exercise it did not exercise it did not exercise there was not a strong central state there was not a strong central state there was not a strong central state that exercised complete power over all that exercised complete power over all that exercised complete power over all aspects of people's lives throughout the aspects of people's lives throughout the aspects of people's lives throughout the territory that it governed. A lot of territory that it governed. A lot of territory that it governed. A lot of tribal areas and such, right? Various

tribal areas and such, right? Various tribal areas and such, right? Various tribal areas, various entrenched tribal areas, various entrenched tribal areas, various entrenched land-owning interests land-owning interests land-owning interests very feudal in many ways to use a kind very feudal in many ways to use a kind very feudal in many ways to use a kind of European terminology. of European terminology. of European terminology. So there was you know the the the court So there was you know the the the court So there was you know the the the court the royal court and the king you know the royal court and the king you know the royal court and the king you know the Shah governed largely through the Shah governed largely through the Shah governed largely through alliances and and politics and you know alliances and and politics and you know alliances and and politics and you know that sort of thing. But that sort of thing. But that sort of thing. But interestingly you know you mentioned the interestingly you know you mentioned the interestingly you know you mentioned the parliament Iran had a constitutional parliament Iran had a constitutional parliament Iran had a constitutional revolution in 1906 and revolution in 1906 and revolution in 1906 and became the first Muslim country with a a became the first Muslim country with a a became the first Muslim country with a a parliament a Majlis the first country in parliament a Majlis the first country in parliament a Majlis the first country in Asia Asia Asia to have a parliament to have a parliament to have a parliament and that was a revolution that was and that was a revolution that was and that was a revolution that was largely largely largely instigated by actually conservative instigated by actually conservative instigated by actually conservative interests oddly. This is one of those interests oddly. This is one of those interests oddly. This is one of those things that so Iran has always had things that so Iran has always had things that so Iran has always had revolutions not two revolutions in the revolutions not two revolutions in the revolutions not two revolutions in the 20th century in in modern times and both 20th century in in modern times and both 20th century in in modern times and both of those have been quirky they they've of those have been quirky they they've of those have been quirky they they've been sort of unconventional revolutions been sort of unconventional revolutions been sort of unconventional revolutions that don't follow the standard playbook that don't follow the standard playbook that don't follow the standard playbook that we're used to. They're the that we're used to. They're the that we're used to. They're the constitutional revolution of 1906 was constitutional revolution of 1906 was constitutional revolution of 1906 was led largely by clerics by by Ayatollahs led largely by clerics by by Ayatollahs led largely by clerics by by Ayatollahs and by bazaar merchants and by bazaar merchants and by bazaar merchants traditional traders traditional traders traditional traders who who who felt that the felt that the felt that the the the Shah the the Shah the the Shah Shah's government was giving away too Shah's government was giving away too Shah's government was giving away too much to foreign powers that much to foreign powers that much to foreign powers that that there was that there was that there was you know that the you know that the you know that the what I can that they needed to be what I can that they needed to be what I can that they needed to be consulted more for various reasons and consulted more for various reasons and consulted more for various reasons and and a source of smaller group of kind of and a source of smaller group of kind of and a source of smaller group of kind of liberalizing intellectuals as well. But liberalizing intellectuals as well. But liberalizing intellectuals as well. But those were the forces that led that those were the forces that led that those were the forces that led that revolution.

revolution. revolution. And in many ways those were the same And in many ways those were the same And in many ways those were the same kinds of forces that came together in kinds of forces that came together in kinds of forces that came together in the Islamic revolution of 1979. It's the Islamic revolution of 1979. It's the Islamic revolution of 1979. It's it's paradoxical that they're forces of it's paradoxical that they're forces of it's paradoxical that they're forces of conservatism in many ways but they also conservatism in many ways but they also conservatism in many ways but they also are forces of radicalism. are forces of radicalism. are forces of radicalism. There's a theme though and it runs There's a theme though and it runs There's a theme though and it runs through the book and it runs through through the book and it runs through through the book and it runs through this Iranian history and the theme is this Iranian history and the theme is this Iranian history and the theme is this this public dissatisfaction with this this public dissatisfaction with this this public dissatisfaction with the Iranian government's giving away too the Iranian government's giving away too the Iranian government's giving away too much to foreign governments whether it's much to foreign governments whether it's much to foreign governments whether it's too much of the of the oil rights or the too much of the of the oil rights or the too much of the of the oil rights or the tax revenues or the decision-making tax revenues or the decision-making tax revenues or the decision-making power or whatever it might be. It's it's power or whatever it might be. It's it's power or whatever it might be. It's it's weird to find so many similarities weird to find so many similarities weird to find so many similarities between the public attitudes of say 1906 between the public attitudes of say 1906 between the public attitudes of say 1906 and 1979 but I see you know you would and 1979 but I see you know you would and 1979 but I see you know you would see that same theme and even the see that same theme and even the see that same theme and even the criticisms against the Shah and whatnot. criticisms against the Shah and whatnot. criticisms against the Shah and whatnot. There's a it seems like there's a There's a it seems like there's a There's a it seems like there's a you know this is a weird thing to say you know this is a weird thing to say you know this is a weird thing to say because every nation has this but Iran because every nation has this but Iran because every nation has this but Iran seems to have this this sense of seems to have this this sense of seems to have this this sense of national pride that can get a government national pride that can get a government national pride that can get a government overturned pretty easily if it's seen to overturned pretty easily if it's seen to overturned pretty easily if it's seen to be giving away too much to be giving away too much to be giving away too much to especially the traditional enemies the especially the traditional enemies the especially the traditional enemies the British and the Russians but as soon as British and the Russians but as soon as British and the Russians but as soon as the United States steps in and plays a the United States steps in and plays a the United States steps in and plays a similar role then we become just as much similar role then we become just as much similar role then we become just as much of a target for the for as you said the of a target for the for as you said the of a target for the for as you said the artisans the bazaar people. Would you artisans the bazaar people. Would you artisans the bazaar people. Would you say maybe those are almost a a kind of a say maybe those are almost a a kind of a say maybe those are almost a a kind of a middle class representation and the middle class representation and the middle class representation and the clerics and the religious folks and and clerics and the religious folks and and clerics and the religious folks and and then you have a third force you then you have a third force you then you have a third force you mentioned that comes in in the 20th mentioned that comes in in the 20th mentioned that comes in in the 20th century where you have a sort of a century where you have a sort of a century where you have a sort of a Marxist leftist side too and the three Marxist leftist side too and the three Marxist leftist side too and the three of them all of them though seem to share of them all of them though seem to share of them all of them though seem to share this antipathy toward the idea that this antipathy toward the idea that this antipathy toward the idea that you're giving away too much of of the you're giving away too much of of the you're giving away too much of of the country's sovereignty or resources to

country's sovereignty or resources to country's sovereignty or resources to other countries. other countries. other countries. You're absolutely putting your finger on You're absolutely putting your finger on You're absolutely putting your finger on it correctly I think and in fact this is it correctly I think and in fact this is it correctly I think and in fact this is the core of to me you know the history the core of to me you know the history the core of to me you know the history of US-Iran relations. of US-Iran relations. of US-Iran relations. You know it it You know it it You know it it there is there is this this common there is there is this this common there is there is this this common thread that runs through modern Iranian thread that runs through modern Iranian thread that runs through modern Iranian history. You're absolutely right. It is history. You're absolutely right. It is history. You're absolutely right. It is a it is a unique country in a lot of a it is a unique country in a lot of a it is a unique country in a lot of ways ways ways of course every country is unique but of course every country is unique but of course every country is unique but its history I guess the uniqueness of its history I guess the uniqueness of its history I guess the uniqueness of Iran's history is that this is a Iran's history is that this is a Iran's history is that this is a once I mean this is the this is a once I mean this is the this is a once I mean this is the this is a country that has been at many points in country that has been at many points in country that has been at many points in history one of the great powers of history one of the great powers of history one of the great powers of history. I mean this you know the history. I mean this you know the history. I mean this you know the Persian Empire you have the first Persian Empire you have the first Persian Empire you have the first ancient Persian Empire of the ancient Persian Empire of the ancient Persian Empire of the Achaemenids you know in the 6th century Achaemenids you know in the 6th century Achaemenids you know in the 6th century BC. BC. BC. Once ruled over almost half of the human Once ruled over almost half of the human Once ruled over almost half of the human population of the world. I mean it was population of the world. I mean it was population of the world. I mean it was you know you know you know a country that has a very strong sense a country that has a very strong sense a country that has a very strong sense of itself and yet also was a declining of itself and yet also was a declining of itself and yet also was a declining power power power you know in the 1800s and the 1900s. you know in the 1800s and the 1900s. you know in the 1800s and the 1900s. But also not only was it a kind of But also not only was it a kind of But also not only was it a kind of declining post-imperial power but it was declining post-imperial power but it was declining post-imperial power but it was one that was not invaded or colonized one that was not invaded or colonized one that was not invaded or colonized formally by other powers which gave formally by other powers which gave formally by other powers which gave Iranians in many ways a certain Iranians in many ways a certain Iranians in many ways a certain you know you know you know it was a perfect storm right? It created it was a perfect storm right? It created it was a perfect storm right? It created this country I think as a modern state this country I think as a modern state this country I think as a modern state you know has a you know has a you know has a lot of pride and sense of itself and its lot of pride and sense of itself and its lot of pride and sense of itself and its history. Yes has a you know a little bit history. Yes has a you know a little bit history. Yes has a you know a little bit of a chip on its shoulder about kind of of a chip on its shoulder about kind of of a chip on its shoulder about kind of its you know its faded glory but also is its you know its faded glory but also is its you know its faded glory but also is extremely touchy about extremely touchy about extremely touchy about what appear to be kind of you know what appear to be kind of you know what appear to be kind of you know violations of its sovereignty its its violations of its sovereignty its its violations of its sovereignty its its national integrity

national integrity national integrity being kind of pushed around or told what being kind of pushed around or told what being kind of pushed around or told what to do or have people pulling the strings to do or have people pulling the strings to do or have people pulling the strings in the background. Now all of this plays in the background. Now all of this plays in the background. Now all of this plays out at numerous points in its history out at numerous points in its history out at numerous points in its history but also in numerous points in its but also in numerous points in its but also in numerous points in its history with the United States. history with the United States. history with the United States. You know this is those forces you You know this is those forces you You know this is those forces you mentioned mentioned mentioned you know the first time we really see you know the first time we really see you know the first time we really see this in terms of US-Iran relations is in this in terms of US-Iran relations is in this in terms of US-Iran relations is in the 1953 coup when Iran the 1953 coup when Iran the 1953 coup when Iran tries to nationalize its oil industry. tries to nationalize its oil industry. tries to nationalize its oil industry. And And And you know the British who the British you know the British who the British you know the British who the British oil company Anglo-Iranian Oil Company oil company Anglo-Iranian Oil Company oil company Anglo-Iranian Oil Company which at the time has a monopoly over which at the time has a monopoly over which at the time has a monopoly over the oil production and profits in Iran the oil production and profits in Iran the oil production and profits in Iran um um um precipitates a precipitates a precipitates a long-running feud with the Iranian long-running feud with the Iranian long-running feud with the Iranian government and eventually convinces the government and eventually convinces the government and eventually convinces the United States to overthrow Iran's very United States to overthrow Iran's very United States to overthrow Iran's very popular prime minister Mohammad popular prime minister Mohammad popular prime minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in 1953. Mosaddegh in 1953. Mosaddegh in 1953. Um that Mosaddegh Um that Mosaddegh Um that Mosaddegh what we forget about him is that he was what we forget about him is that he was what we forget about him is that he was a the reason he was so popular is that a the reason he was so popular is that a the reason he was so popular is that he put his finger very much on the he put his finger very much on the he put his finger very much on the zeitgeist of Iranian nationalism of the zeitgeist of Iranian nationalism of the zeitgeist of Iranian nationalism of the 1950s the modern rising nationalism.

1950s the modern rising nationalism. 1950s the modern rising nationalism. Which was not unrelated to the Which was not unrelated to the Which was not unrelated to the nationalism that you're talking about nationalism that you're talking about nationalism that you're talking about from the 19th early 20th century. It was from the 19th early 20th century. It was from the 19th early 20th century. It was it was the reason he was popular was it was the reason he was popular was it was the reason he was popular was because he came along and he said because he came along and he said because he came along and he said we need to give more of a voice to the we need to give more of a voice to the we need to give more of a voice to the people but also more of a voice to people but also more of a voice to people but also more of a voice to ourselves as a country and those two ourselves as a country and those two ourselves as a country and those two things go hand in hand. That you know things go hand in hand. That you know things go hand in hand. That you know the Shah's powers need to be limited the Shah's powers need to be limited the Shah's powers need to be limited there needs to be more representation there needs to be more representation there needs to be more representation through parliament and democracy. through parliament and democracy. through parliament and democracy. But then when you do that But then when you do that But then when you do that people will also be demanding an end to people will also be demanding an end to people will also be demanding an end to British or other kinds of foreign British or other kinds of foreign British or other kinds of foreign interference in the oil industry and interference in the oil industry and interference in the oil industry and vice versa. vice versa. vice versa. You know that sovereign true sovereignty You know that sovereign true sovereignty You know that sovereign true sovereignty true national self-determination and true national self-determination and true national self-determination and democratic representation are two sides democratic representation are two sides democratic representation are two sides of the same coin. That has been the of the same coin. That has been the of the same coin. That has been the common thread through so much of 20th common thread through so much of 20th common thread through so much of 20th century Iranian history. century Iranian history. century Iranian history. Well now you got to 1953 before I was Well now you got to 1953 before I was Well now you got to 1953 before I was going to get there. That's such a key going to get there. That's such a key going to get there. That's such a key year but let's let's get to a little bit year but let's let's get to a little bit year but let's let's get to a little bit about why something like that might about why something like that might about why something like that might matter to to a lot of the other great matter to to a lot of the other great matter to to a lot of the other great outside powers, right? So in the Great outside powers, right? So in the Great outside powers, right? So in the Great Game era Game era Game era you know as you pointed out Britain's you know as you pointed out Britain's you know as you pointed out Britain's concerned with the strategic location of concerned with the strategic location of concerned with the strategic location of a place like Iran, right? This is a a place like Iran, right? This is a a place like Iran, right? This is a bridge way to their empire in India bridge way to their empire in India bridge way to their empire in India for for Russia this is part and parcel for for Russia this is part and parcel for for Russia this is part and parcel of their whole they've got a lot of of their whole they've got a lot of of their whole they've got a lot of provinces in that region.

provinces in that region. provinces in that region. But it's oil that changes things and But it's oil that changes things and But it's oil that changes things and puts them in a different dimension. I puts them in a different dimension. I puts them in a different dimension. I mean otherwise you know somebody said mean otherwise you know somebody said mean otherwise you know somebody said that about the Middle East once. I mean that about the Middle East once. I mean that about the Middle East once. I mean what is the Middle East without oil? Can what is the Middle East without oil? Can what is the Middle East without oil? Can you imagine? We wouldn't have been you imagine? We wouldn't have been you imagine? We wouldn't have been involved like we've been involved all involved like we've been involved all involved like we've been involved all these years and by the time 53 rolls these years and by the time 53 rolls these years and by the time 53 rolls around the reason anybody cares to the around the reason anybody cares to the around the reason anybody cares to the degree that they do is because of the degree that they do is because of the degree that they do is because of the oil company that you just mentioned that oil company that you just mentioned that oil company that you just mentioned that Britain Britain Britain partners with Iran with. But let's talk partners with Iran with. But let's talk partners with Iran with. But let's talk about that first let's let's get about that first let's let's get about that first let's let's get backwards a little bit and get to the backwards a little bit and get to the backwards a little bit and get to the oil since the oil is so much a part of oil since the oil is so much a part of oil since the oil is so much a part of everything. everything. everything. You know oil and money might as well You know oil and money might as well You know oil and money might as well just make them simul you know the just make them simul you know the just make them simul you know the interchangeable in this case. The United interchangeable in this case. The United interchangeable in this case. The United States is a big oil producing country in States is a big oil producing country in States is a big oil producing country in the early 20th century. Iran's not even the early 20th century. Iran's not even the early 20th century. Iran's not even on the map the Middle East is not even on the map the Middle East is not even on the map the Middle East is not even on the map because nobody needs oil in on the map because nobody needs oil in on the map because nobody needs oil in the Middle East yet because nobody's got the Middle East yet because nobody's got the Middle East yet because nobody's got a shortage anywhere. Talk to me though a shortage anywhere. Talk to me though a shortage anywhere. Talk to me though about this Cuz isn't isn't Iran one of about this Cuz isn't isn't Iran one of about this Cuz isn't isn't Iran one of the early Middle Eastern oil fields? the early Middle Eastern oil fields? the early Middle Eastern oil fields? Iran is the very first major big big Iran is the very first major big big Iran is the very first major big big like a large scale oil discovery that like a large scale oil discovery that like a large scale oil discovery that takes place in the Middle East there in takes place in the Middle East there in takes place in the Middle East there in 1907 at Masjid-i-Suleiman in southern 1907 at Masjid-i-Suleiman in southern 1907 at Masjid-i-Suleiman in southern Iran.

Iran. Iran. Um you know but you're right. Um you know but you're right. Um you know but you're right. It's interesting when that when that It's interesting when that when that It's interesting when that when that takes place and you know it's a huge takes place and you know it's a huge takes place and you know it's a huge discovery and it's very profitable for discovery and it's very profitable for discovery and it's very profitable for you know for you know for you know for William D'Arcy William D'Arcy William D'Arcy Anglo-Persian Oil Company. Anglo-Persian Oil Company. Anglo-Persian Oil Company. And he got wait we should stop here cuz And he got wait we should stop here cuz And he got wait we should stop here cuz one of the things that you said that one of the things that you said that one of the things that you said that just blew my mind is he got the rights just blew my mind is he got the rights just blew my mind is he got the rights to drill all of like all of Iran's oil to drill all of like all of Iran's oil to drill all of like all of Iran's oil for years and years and years for like for years and years and years for like for years and years and years for like 20,000 British pounds or something like 20,000 British pounds or something like 20,000 British pounds or something like that? that? that? That's right. It was an incredible deal. That's right. It was an incredible deal. That's right. It was an incredible deal. It was one of the best deals I think It was one of the best deals I think It was one of the best deals I think anyone's ever got. I mean I think you anyone's ever got. I mean I think you anyone's ever got. I mean I think you know because at the time no one knew how know because at the time no one knew how know because at the time no one knew how much oil there was in Iran and you know much oil there was in Iran and you know much oil there was in Iran and you know or how valuable it would be. And Iran's or how valuable it would be. And Iran's or how valuable it would be. And Iran's government was extremely cash-strapped government was extremely cash-strapped government was extremely cash-strapped at the time and gave away this at the time and gave away this at the time and gave away this concession rights to drill over you know concession rights to drill over you know concession rights to drill over you know a huge portion of the country. Um and to a huge portion of the country. Um and to a huge portion of the country. Um and to take the lion's share of the profits take the lion's share of the profits take the lion's share of the profits and you know and you know and you know Shah's government at the time needed the Shah's government at the time needed the Shah's government at the time needed the money. money. money. Um had no idea what potentially lay Um had no idea what potentially lay Um had no idea what potentially lay underground. underground. underground. Um and what's interesting of course as Um and what's interesting of course as Um and what's interesting of course as as you write it point out correctly the as you write it point out correctly the as you write it point out correctly the early 20th century early 20th century early 20th century oil you know it's a valuable commodity oil you know it's a valuable commodity oil you know it's a valuable commodity but nothing like what it became later.

but nothing like what it became later. but nothing like what it became later. Um Um Um you know and you know and you know as you know and you know and you know as you know and you know and you know as late as 1910 the United States was late as 1910 the United States was late as 1910 the United States was exporting oil to Iran. That's right. The exporting oil to Iran. That's right. The exporting oil to Iran. That's right. The United States was the big oil exporter. United States was the big oil exporter. United States was the big oil exporter. I think big oil producer of the late I think big oil producer of the late I think big oil producer of the late 19th early 20th century. I mean the oil 19th early 20th century. I mean the oil 19th early 20th century. I mean the oil fields of Pennsylvania and Texas and so fields of Pennsylvania and Texas and so fields of Pennsylvania and Texas and so on. on. on. Um Um Um So it's um you know when when oil is So it's um you know when when oil is So it's um you know when when oil is discovered of course it's um you know I discovered of course it's um you know I discovered of course it's um you know I think we have to be a little bit careful think we have to be a little bit careful think we have to be a little bit careful cuz I'm not one of these people that cuz I'm not one of these people that cuz I'm not one of these people that will you know sort of um will you know sort of um will you know sort of um will claim that you know everything's will claim that you know everything's will claim that you know everything's all about oil. You know I I think that all about oil. You know I I think that all about oil. You know I I think that um you know it's there and it's um you know it's there and it's um you know it's there and it's important. Um important. Um important. Um And money of course as you correctly And money of course as you correctly And money of course as you correctly point out point out point out um um um you know but in the early 20th century you know but in the early 20th century you know but in the early 20th century nobody cares that much about oil. nobody cares that much about oil. nobody cares that much about oil. Right? Right? Right? It's um what starts to change in the It's um what starts to change in the It's um what starts to change in the 1920s 1920s 1920s after the First World War and after the after the First World War and after the after the First World War and after the great powers begin to see for the first great powers begin to see for the first great powers begin to see for the first time the potential time the potential time the potential that the internal combustion engine and that the internal combustion engine and that the internal combustion engine and oil have for powering their navies their oil have for powering their navies their oil have for powering their navies their fleets as well as of course motor cars fleets as well as of course motor cars fleets as well as of course motor cars and other other things. and other other things. and other other things. Uh that it becomes seen as a much more Uh that it becomes seen as a much more Uh that it becomes seen as a much more valuable commodity and there is a bit valuable commodity and there is a bit valuable commodity and there is a bit more of a race or a scramble for Middle more of a race or a scramble for Middle more of a race or a scramble for Middle Eastern oil along the British the Eastern oil along the British the Eastern oil along the British the Russians Soviet Union as it becomes.

Russians Soviet Union as it becomes. Russians Soviet Union as it becomes. Um and also the United States which uh Um and also the United States which uh Um and also the United States which uh is incredibly actually amateurish and is incredibly actually amateurish and is incredibly actually amateurish and naive when it comes to Middle Eastern naive when it comes to Middle Eastern naive when it comes to Middle Eastern oil in the 1920s. I mean they oil in the 1920s. I mean they oil in the 1920s. I mean they blow opportunity after opportunity to blow opportunity after opportunity to blow opportunity after opportunity to get into Iranian oil in the 1920s. get into Iranian oil in the 1920s. get into Iranian oil in the 1920s. Sinclair and the Standard Oil companies Sinclair and the Standard Oil companies Sinclair and the Standard Oil companies are both trying to get concessions in are both trying to get concessions in are both trying to get concessions in Iran and Iran and Iran and it's just an absolute it's just an absolute it's just an absolute you know you know you know sort of boondoggle. It doesn't go sort of boondoggle. It doesn't go sort of boondoggle. It doesn't go anywhere. The British completely anywhere. The British completely anywhere. The British completely outsmart them and they continue to outsmart them and they continue to outsmart them and they continue to maintain the the monopoly over Iranian maintain the the monopoly over Iranian maintain the the monopoly over Iranian oil up until the 1950s. Well and if we oil up until the 1950s. Well and if we oil up until the 1950s. Well and if we remember the difference between the remember the difference between the remember the difference between the Russians the Americans and the British Russians the Americans and the British Russians the Americans and the British when it comes to oil in this time period when it comes to oil in this time period when it comes to oil in this time period is the Russians and the Americans have a is the Russians and the Americans have a is the Russians and the Americans have a have a generous supply within their own have a generous supply within their own have a generous supply within their own borders and the British don't. Um borders and the British don't. Um borders and the British don't. Um Exactly. So worth So then worth you you Exactly. So worth So then worth you you Exactly. So worth So then worth you you point out a wonderful thing and that's point out a wonderful thing and that's point out a wonderful thing and that's that it's not all about oil and it's not that it's not all about oil and it's not that it's not all about oil and it's not all about money. There are other all about money. There are other all about money. There are other elements that are very important and one elements that are very important and one elements that are very important and one of the ones you bring up and that that of the ones you bring up and that that of the ones you bring up and that that we in the West don't pay enough we in the West don't pay enough we in the West don't pay enough attention to is the religious side of attention to is the religious side of attention to is the religious side of this and very specifically the fact that this and very specifically the fact that this and very specifically the fact that the people in Iran are for the most part the people in Iran are for the most part the people in Iran are for the most part their version of Islam for the most part their version of Islam for the most part their version of Islam for the most part is is the Shia version and they're is is the Shia version and they're is is the Shia version and they're probably would you correct me on this if probably would you correct me on this if probably would you correct me on this if I'm wrong the most populous Shia state I'm wrong the most populous Shia state I'm wrong the most populous Shia state in the world?

in the world? in the world? That's correct. I mean Iran is really That's correct. I mean Iran is really That's correct. I mean Iran is really the sort of the nerve center of Shia the sort of the nerve center of Shia the sort of the nerve center of Shia Islam and and you know for those who Islam and and you know for those who Islam and and you know for those who maybe not particularly versed with these maybe not particularly versed with these maybe not particularly versed with these things I mean you know the Shia are and things I mean you know the Shia are and things I mean you know the Shia are and remain minority and the Sunni are of remain minority and the Sunni are of remain minority and the Sunni are of course much more populous. course much more populous. course much more populous. You mean in Islam as a whole? You mean in Islam as a whole? You mean in Islam as a whole? Sorry. You mean in in Islam as a whole Sorry. You mean in in Islam as a whole Sorry. You mean in in Islam as a whole not in Iran. not in Iran. not in Iran. Yes. Yes yes yes correct. I'm sorry. Yes Yes. Yes yes yes correct. I'm sorry. Yes Yes. Yes yes yes correct. I'm sorry. Yes I I I there are far more Sunni Muslims than there are far more Sunni Muslims than there are far more Sunni Muslims than Shia Muslims in the world. So and so but Shia Muslims in the world. So and so but Shia Muslims in the world. So and so but Iran is one of the very few countries Iran is one of the very few countries Iran is one of the very few countries that is overwhelmingly majority Shia. that is overwhelmingly majority Shia. that is overwhelmingly majority Shia. Uh around 90% are so Shia. Uh around 90% are so Shia. Uh around 90% are so Shia. Um and you know there are other Um and you know there are other Um and you know there are other countries that have Shia majorities or countries that have Shia majorities or countries that have Shia majorities or significant pluralities but nothing significant pluralities but nothing significant pluralities but nothing quite like Iran and and quite like Iran and and quite like Iran and and um um um Yeah I mean I think it's significant. I Yeah I mean I think it's significant. I Yeah I mean I think it's significant. I think if anything actually we do I would think if anything actually we do I would think if anything actually we do I would say that it's in some ways I think say that it's in some ways I think say that it's in some ways I think sometimes we overemphasize religion sometimes we overemphasize religion sometimes we overemphasize religion when in the West when we're talking when in the West when we're talking when in the West when we're talking about Middle Eastern states. I mean you about Middle Eastern states. I mean you about Middle Eastern states. I mean you know the religious know the religious know the religious aspects are of course important but they aspects are of course important but they aspects are of course important but they don't define everything. And it's really don't define everything. And it's really don't define everything. And it's really not until the 1970s that religion not until the 1970s that religion not until the 1970s that religion becomes a serious force in in politics.

becomes a serious force in in politics. becomes a serious force in in politics. Um and and we see that of course in the Um and and we see that of course in the Um and and we see that of course in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. Iranian Revolution of 1979. Iranian Revolution of 1979. But for most of Iran's modern history But for most of Iran's modern history But for most of Iran's modern history the clergy are very much like sort of the clergy are very much like sort of the clergy are very much like sort of small c conservative they're quietist as small c conservative they're quietist as small c conservative they're quietist as they're sometimes described they they they're sometimes described they they they're sometimes described they they support the state. Um they play roughly support the state. Um they play roughly support the state. Um they play roughly the same role that the clergy has have the same role that the clergy has have the same role that the clergy has have often played in you know kind of often played in you know kind of often played in you know kind of European traditional societies before European traditional societies before European traditional societies before the 20th century. the 20th century. the 20th century. Um so in a way it's not that different Um so in a way it's not that different Um so in a way it's not that different from what from the history that we know. from what from the history that we know. from what from the history that we know. I mean if you're I mean if you're I mean if you're in Iran in 1900 versus in Russia in 1900 in Iran in 1900 versus in Russia in 1900 in Iran in 1900 versus in Russia in 1900 or you know or you know or you know in in in Prussia in 1900 or Italy in 1900 you're Prussia in 1900 or Italy in 1900 you're Prussia in 1900 or Italy in 1900 you're you're still you're still you're still you know you're you're going to see a you know you're you're going to see a you know you're you're going to see a very similar kind of state in many ways. very similar kind of state in many ways. very similar kind of state in many ways. I mean there are differences of course I mean there are differences of course I mean there are differences of course but you know you're going to see but you know you're going to see but you know you're going to see monarchies you're going to see clergy monarchies you're going to see clergy monarchies you're going to see clergy playing a significant role playing a significant role playing a significant role uh in you know in rural communities as uh in you know in rural communities as uh in you know in rural communities as well as you know at the very nerve well as you know at the very nerve well as you know at the very nerve center of center of center of of the state and at the royal court. of the state and at the royal court. of the state and at the royal court. Um but in a way that's not radical in a Um but in a way that's not radical in a Um but in a way that's not radical in a way that's not revolutionary in a way way that's not revolutionary in a way way that's not revolutionary in a way that's actually about maintaining the that's actually about maintaining the that's actually about maintaining the traditional order.

traditional order. traditional order. Well and worth pointing out that the Well and worth pointing out that the Well and worth pointing out that the religion in the West was more important religion in the West was more important religion in the West was more important in those days too. So a comparison in in those days too. So a comparison in in those days too. So a comparison in 1900 is more apples and apples. So let's 1900 is more apples and apples. So let's 1900 is more apples and apples. So let's let's So then let's ask then the obvious let's So then let's ask then the obvious let's So then let's ask then the obvious question. Before we get to the the question. Before we get to the the question. Before we get to the the pivotal year of 1953 seems to me the pivotal year of 1953 seems to me the pivotal year of 1953 seems to me the Second World War is a pretty important Second World War is a pretty important Second World War is a pretty important time time time on the Iranian timeline because once on the Iranian timeline because once on the Iranian timeline because once again their particular location makes again their particular location makes again their particular location makes them extra valuable and the fact that a them extra valuable and the fact that a them extra valuable and the fact that a country like Germany who one of their country like Germany who one of their country like Germany who one of their main main main deficiencies in the world is the fact deficiencies in the world is the fact deficiencies in the world is the fact that they don't have access to oil. Talk that they don't have access to oil. Talk that they don't have access to oil. Talk to us a little about how Iran becomes to us a little about how Iran becomes to us a little about how Iran becomes this focal point in the Second World War this focal point in the Second World War this focal point in the Second World War when it would seem to be a long way from when it would seem to be a long way from when it would seem to be a long way from most of the major battlefronts. Yeah most of the major battlefronts. Yeah most of the major battlefronts. Yeah it's fascinating actually. I think that it's fascinating actually. I think that it's fascinating actually. I think that Iran's history in the Second World War Iran's history in the Second World War Iran's history in the Second World War is very interesting and it's also is very interesting and it's also is very interesting and it's also by the way the first time that a large by the way the first time that a large by the way the first time that a large numbers of Iranians and Americans numbers of Iranians and Americans numbers of Iranians and Americans ordinary ordinary Iranians and Americans ordinary ordinary Iranians and Americans ordinary ordinary Iranians and Americans come into contact with each other. come into contact with each other. come into contact with each other. Uh Uh Uh but I'll sort of come back to that. I but I'll sort of come back to that. I but I'll sort of come back to that. I mean you know Iran's role in the Second mean you know Iran's role in the Second mean you know Iran's role in the Second World War is interesting because it's a World War is interesting because it's a World War is interesting because it's a neutral country. It has been neutral um neutral country. It has been neutral um neutral country. It has been neutral um you know dating back to the 1820s it you know dating back to the 1820s it you know dating back to the 1820s it hasn't you know it it has tried it hasn't you know it it has tried it hasn't you know it it has tried it hasn't had it maintained its neutrality hasn't had it maintained its neutrality hasn't had it maintained its neutrality or it had it had tried to in the First or it had it had tried to in the First or it had it had tried to in the First World War unsuccessfully. Um it had been World War unsuccessfully. Um it had been World War unsuccessfully. Um it had been invaded invaded invaded but in the in the Second World War it but in the in the Second World War it but in the in the Second World War it really tries to insist on its really tries to insist on its really tries to insist on its neutrality.

neutrality. neutrality. Um you know the the feeling is this is Um you know the the feeling is this is Um you know the the feeling is this is this war doesn't have anything to do this war doesn't have anything to do this war doesn't have anything to do with us. Why you know it's a European with us. Why you know it's a European with us. Why you know it's a European war and they try to stay out of it as war and they try to stay out of it as war and they try to stay out of it as long as they can. Uh but unfortunately long as they can. Uh but unfortunately long as they can. Uh but unfortunately um you know um you know um you know so there is of course the oil issue all so there is of course the oil issue all so there is of course the oil issue all of the all of the belligerent major of the all of the belligerent major of the all of the belligerent major belligerents Second World War very much belligerents Second World War very much belligerents Second World War very much want uh oil to power their you know want uh oil to power their you know want uh oil to power their you know their their armies and navies and fleets their their armies and navies and fleets their their armies and navies and fleets and so on. and so on. and so on. Um but also the allies are very Um but also the allies are very Um but also the allies are very concerned because there are large concerned because there are large concerned because there are large numbers of Germans living in Iran. numbers of Germans living in Iran. numbers of Germans living in Iran. The Iran's government in the 1930s had The Iran's government in the 1930s had The Iran's government in the 1930s had begun to draw closer to Germany and it begun to draw closer to Germany and it begun to draw closer to Germany and it was certainly not by any stretch of the was certainly not by any stretch of the was certainly not by any stretch of the imagination sort of Nazi sympathizer. imagination sort of Nazi sympathizer. imagination sort of Nazi sympathizer. Uh but there was a feeling it was a Uh but there was a feeling it was a Uh but there was a feeling it was a historic lingering resentment against historic lingering resentment against historic lingering resentment against Russia and Britain. And of course when Russia and Britain. And of course when Russia and Britain. And of course when the Soviet Union and Britain the Soviet Union and Britain the Soviet Union and Britain you know joined forces in the Second you know joined forces in the Second you know joined forces in the Second World War World War World War it was natural that Iran would be more it was natural that Iran would be more it was natural that Iran would be more sympathetic to both Germany and sympathetic to both Germany and sympathetic to both Germany and uh you know its allies. uh you know its allies. uh you know its allies. So So So of course the allies didn't like that.

of course the allies didn't like that. of course the allies didn't like that. They tolerated it for a bit and then They tolerated it for a bit and then They tolerated it for a bit and then they moved in invaded Iran in 1941 and they moved in invaded Iran in 1941 and they moved in invaded Iran in 1941 and overthrew overthrew overthrew uh the king at the time Reza Shah uh the king at the time Reza Shah uh the king at the time Reza Shah uh in September of 1941. It took three uh in September of 1941. It took three uh in September of 1941. It took three weeks to depose him and they placed him weeks to depose him and they placed him weeks to depose him and they placed him with his very very young son 22-year-old with his very very young son 22-year-old with his very very young son 22-year-old uh Mohammad Reza Shah who became the uh Mohammad Reza Shah who became the uh Mohammad Reza Shah who became the last uh king of Iran the last Shah of last uh king of Iran the last Shah of last uh king of Iran the last Shah of Iran. Iran. Iran. Um Um Um the once the allies invaded and occupied the once the allies invaded and occupied the once the allies invaded and occupied Iran Iran Iran they agreed that they would leave but they agreed that they would leave but they agreed that they would leave but when the war ended but they you know when the war ended but they you know when the war ended but they you know they divided it up into northern and they divided it up into northern and they divided it up into northern and southern sectors the sort of Soviet southern sectors the sort of Soviet southern sectors the sort of Soviet sector and the British sector. sector and the British sector. sector and the British sector. Uh and the United States played the key Uh and the United States played the key Uh and the United States played the key role of connecting these two sectors role of connecting these two sectors role of connecting these two sectors because Iran had just finished because Iran had just finished because Iran had just finished completing a Trans-Iranian Railway that completing a Trans-Iranian Railway that completing a Trans-Iranian Railway that connected the Persian Gulf in the south connected the Persian Gulf in the south connected the Persian Gulf in the south up to the up to the Caspian Sea in the up to the up to the Caspian Sea in the up to the up to the Caspian Sea in the north. north. north. And that railway had been partly built And that railway had been partly built And that railway had been partly built by Americans actually but the US by Americans actually but the US by Americans actually but the US military center of what was called the military center of what was called the military center of what was called the Persian Gulf Command at the time 30,000 Persian Gulf Command at the time 30,000 Persian Gulf Command at the time 30,000 American GIs. American GIs. American GIs. It was one of the least known operations It was one of the least known operations It was one of the least known operations of the Second World War but it was of the Second World War but it was of the Second World War but it was actually a very critical one because actually a very critical one because actually a very critical one because after after after uh Hitler had opened up the Eastern uh Hitler had opened up the Eastern uh Hitler had opened up the Eastern Front against Front against Front against Soviet Union um Soviet Union um Soviet Union um the the the uh the Soviet Moscow was completely cut uh the Soviet Moscow was completely cut uh the Soviet Moscow was completely cut off from Western supplies and the and off from Western supplies and the and off from Western supplies and the and the only there were no there were no the only there were no there were no the only there were no there were no other good ways to get material other good ways to get material other good ways to get material into Russia.

into Russia. into Russia. Um there was the northern route which Um there was the northern route which Um there was the northern route which was very cold and very difficult. Um but was very cold and very difficult. Um but was very cold and very difficult. Um but one of the best routes was across Iran. one of the best routes was across Iran. one of the best routes was across Iran. So the allies occupied they invaded they So the allies occupied they invaded they So the allies occupied they invaded they then started shipping huge quantities of then started shipping huge quantities of then started shipping huge quantities of American Lend-Lease supplies along the American Lend-Lease supplies along the American Lend-Lease supplies along the Trans-Iranian Railway up to the Soviet Trans-Iranian Railway up to the Soviet Trans-Iranian Railway up to the Soviet Union and it was American troops that Union and it was American troops that Union and it was American troops that did that. So and then they were did that. So and then they were did that. So and then they were stationed there for a couple of years. stationed there for a couple of years. stationed there for a couple of years. So you had you know thousands of So you had you know thousands of So you had you know thousands of Americans for the first time stationed Americans for the first time stationed Americans for the first time stationed in Iran. in Iran. in Iran. And so then you get the post-war period And so then you get the post-war period And so then you get the post-war period where we get to where we get to where we get to the Cold War worries about the Cold War worries about the Cold War worries about communism. We get to the communism. We get to the communism. We get to the oil becoming even more important. oil becoming even more important. oil becoming even more important. We get to the British post-war We get to the British post-war We get to the British post-war situation, which is situation, which is situation, which is difficult to say the least. I mean, it's difficult to say the least. I mean, it's difficult to say the least. I mean, it's trying to find a soft landing from trying to find a soft landing from trying to find a soft landing from empire. And so talk to me a little bit empire. And so talk to me a little bit empire. And so talk to me a little bit about the Anglo-Iranian about the Anglo-Iranian about the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and the kind of deal that Oil Company and the kind of deal that Oil Company and the kind of deal that Iran had to put up with. In other words, Iran had to put up with. In other words, Iran had to put up with. In other words, I'm trying to put Iran into a situation I'm trying to put Iran into a situation I'm trying to put Iran into a situation here where anyone from any country could here where anyone from any country could here where anyone from any country could kind of understand how a deal like that kind of understand how a deal like that kind of understand how a deal like that graded against them, how it was almost a graded against them, how it was almost a graded against them, how it was almost a deal from pre-colonial sort of deal from pre-colonial sort of deal from pre-colonial sort of expectation eras. And now we were in an expectation eras. And now we were in an expectation eras. And now we were in an era where it just looked like a really era where it just looked like a really era where it just looked like a really bad deal by modern standards. Can you bad deal by modern standards. Can you bad deal by modern standards. Can you talk a little bit about that?

talk a little bit about that? talk a little bit about that? That's exactly right. I mean, the That's exactly right. I mean, the That's exactly right. I mean, the British were absolutely bankrupt at the British were absolutely bankrupt at the British were absolutely bankrupt at the end of the Second World War. end of the Second World War. end of the Second World War. And And And as you said, yes, looking for a soft as you said, yes, looking for a soft as you said, yes, looking for a soft landing is a good way to put it. I mean, landing is a good way to put it. I mean, landing is a good way to put it. I mean, they were they were trying to adjust they were they were trying to adjust they were they were trying to adjust this new post-imperial reality. this new post-imperial reality. this new post-imperial reality. Which took some time. Which took some time. Which took some time. And And And they desperately needed money. And the they desperately needed money. And the they desperately needed money. And the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company uh Anglo-Iranian Oil Company uh Anglo-Iranian Oil Company uh had been and continued to be the source had been and continued to be the source had been and continued to be the source of great profits for the United Kingdom. of great profits for the United Kingdom. of great profits for the United Kingdom. Of course, after the war, Britain Of course, after the war, Britain Of course, after the war, Britain uh uh uh you know, creates this massive welfare you know, creates this massive welfare you know, creates this massive welfare state under the Labour government of state under the Labour government of state under the Labour government of Clement Attlee. Clement Attlee. Clement Attlee. Um but it needs to fund it. And Um but it needs to fund it. And Um but it needs to fund it. And oil from Iran is I mean, one of the oil from Iran is I mean, one of the oil from Iran is I mean, one of the things that's often not appreciated uh things that's often not appreciated uh things that's often not appreciated uh in Britain actually is just how much of in Britain actually is just how much of in Britain actually is just how much of the British welfare state the people the British welfare state the people the British welfare state the people kind of cherish and take for granted, kind of cherish and take for granted, kind of cherish and take for granted, things like the National Health Service things like the National Health Service things like the National Health Service and so on, and so on, and so on, was really um was really um was really um funded, not entirely, but in very, very funded, not entirely, but in very, very funded, not entirely, but in very, very large measure by the profits from large measure by the profits from large measure by the profits from Iranian oil. Iranian oil. Iranian oil. Um and Um and Um and of course, in Iran, this was seen this of course, in Iran, this was seen this of course, in Iran, this was seen this was an increasingly source of resentment was an increasingly source of resentment was an increasingly source of resentment because it's the 1950s now. People are because it's the 1950s now. People are because it's the 1950s now. People are It's different. It's not the 1910s. It's It's different. It's not the 1910s. It's It's different. It's not the 1910s. It's not the 1850s. You know, the the sort of not the 1850s. You know, the the sort of not the 1850s. You know, the the sort of imperial colonial era seems to be imperial colonial era seems to be imperial colonial era seems to be drawing to a close, and people don't drawing to a close, and people don't drawing to a close, and people don't appreciate appreciate appreciate this very large foreign company that has this very large foreign company that has this very large foreign company that has a monopoly a monopoly a monopoly over country the country's oil, that over country the country's oil, that over country the country's oil, that employs 30,000 people, employs 30,000 people, employs 30,000 people, um um um but treats Iranian manual laborers very but treats Iranian manual laborers very but treats Iranian manual laborers very differently from British differently from British differently from British workers who come in and have these workers who come in and have these workers who come in and have these beautiful suburban homes with lawns and

beautiful suburban homes with lawns and beautiful suburban homes with lawns and you you you air conditioning and so on. air conditioning and so on. air conditioning and so on. And you know, it houses Iranians in And you know, it houses Iranians in And you know, it houses Iranians in these kind of slums and has kind of these kind of slums and has kind of these kind of slums and has kind of separate water fountains and all those separate water fountains and all those separate water fountains and all those kinds of things kinds of things kinds of things um you know, in their own country. Uh um you know, in their own country. Uh um you know, in their own country. Uh you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, one of the things I love is that you one of the things I love is that you one of the things I love is that you know, the the British compound in know, the the British compound in know, the the British compound in Abadan, you know, had a Abadan, you know, had a Abadan, you know, had a Persian club, you know, it was called, Persian club, you know, it was called, Persian club, you know, it was called, where you would go in for cocktails and where you would go in for cocktails and where you would go in for cocktails and so on, but it was so on, but it was so on, but it was you know, very conspicuously labeled, you know, very conspicuously labeled, you know, very conspicuously labeled, you know, not for Persians, you know, you know, not for Persians, you know, you know, not for Persians, you know, British only. British only. British only. Um and this is the stuff where it Um and this is the stuff where it Um and this is the stuff where it started to grate on people. On top of started to grate on people. On top of started to grate on people. On top of which, this oil company is taking 80 to which, this oil company is taking 80 to which, this oil company is taking 80 to 90% of the profits. 90% of the profits. 90% of the profits. Uh and you know, is not opening up its Uh and you know, is not opening up its Uh and you know, is not opening up its books to the Iranian government, and not books to the Iranian government, and not books to the Iranian government, and not sharing the wealth, refusing to adapt to sharing the wealth, refusing to adapt to sharing the wealth, refusing to adapt to modern times, or you know, modern times, or you know, modern times, or you know, And it really starts to in the 1950s And it really starts to in the 1950s And it really starts to in the 1950s now, but also this rising generation of now, but also this rising generation of now, but also this rising generation of 1950s of increasingly educated modern 1950s of increasingly educated modern 1950s of increasingly educated modern middle class Iranians. middle class Iranians. middle class Iranians. Um who see what's going on, read Um who see what's going on, read Um who see what's going on, read newspapers, you know, hear the stories, newspapers, you know, hear the stories, newspapers, you know, hear the stories, and are very resentful of this. Um and are very resentful of this. Um and are very resentful of this. Um And they coalesce around their hero And they coalesce around their hero And they coalesce around their hero Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was initially a Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was initially a Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was initially a parliamentarian, a member of Majlis, the parliamentarian, a member of Majlis, the parliamentarian, a member of Majlis, the parliament, parliament, parliament, who becomes who becomes who becomes uh chair of the Petroleum Committee, and uh chair of the Petroleum Committee, and uh chair of the Petroleum Committee, and really really really is an uncompromising figure, a very is an uncompromising figure, a very is an uncompromising figure, a very charismatic figure, elderly man, an charismatic figure, elderly man, an charismatic figure, elderly man, an aristocrat from an earlier era, but one aristocrat from an earlier era, but one aristocrat from an earlier era, but one who was very sort of liberal and who was very sort of liberal and who was very sort of liberal and democratizing, and also believes very democratizing, and also believes very democratizing, and also believes very strongly that it that the time has come strongly that it that the time has come strongly that it that the time has come for the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company to

for the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company to for the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company to leave, leave, leave, to hand over Iran's oil to the Iranian to hand over Iran's oil to the Iranian to hand over Iran's oil to the Iranian people, and to the Iranian government, people, and to the Iranian government, people, and to the Iranian government, to nationalize the oil company. And he to nationalize the oil company. And he to nationalize the oil company. And he tries to do that. tries to do that. tries to do that. The British declare this an illegal act. The British declare this an illegal act. The British declare this an illegal act. They they you know, they refuse to have They they you know, they refuse to have They they you know, they refuse to have anything to do with it. anything to do with it. anything to do with it. Um and Um and Um and you know, they you know, they you know, they there was a 2-year kind of battle that there was a 2-year kind of battle that there was a 2-year kind of battle that goes on. They drag it to the Hague, and goes on. They drag it to the Hague, and goes on. They drag it to the Hague, and to the United Nations, and World Court, to the United Nations, and World Court, to the United Nations, and World Court, and all these kinds of things. They and all these kinds of things. They and all these kinds of things. They impose sanctions, and they threaten war, impose sanctions, and they threaten war, impose sanctions, and they threaten war, and you know, and you know, and you know, a lot of the stuff that we see today a lot of the stuff that we see today a lot of the stuff that we see today around nuclear issues in some ways. around nuclear issues in some ways. around nuclear issues in some ways. Uh but this time it's the British, Uh but this time it's the British, Uh but this time it's the British, right? Um right? Um right? Um And initially, the Truman administration And initially, the Truman administration And initially, the Truman administration in in the US is if not sympathetic to in in the US is if not sympathetic to in in the US is if not sympathetic to the Iranian position, they're trying to the Iranian position, they're trying to the Iranian position, they're trying to play the neutral, you know, kind of play the neutral, you know, kind of play the neutral, you know, kind of neutral broker. Um saying to the neutral broker. Um saying to the neutral broker. Um saying to the British, "Look, we understand where British, "Look, we understand where British, "Look, we understand where you're coming from, but times are you're coming from, but times are you're coming from, but times are changing. changing. changing. Do a deal with these guys, you know, Do a deal with these guys, you know, Do a deal with these guys, you know, hand over the oil company, you know, hand over the oil company, you know, hand over the oil company, you know, they'll still let you they'll still let you they'll still let you take some profits, but you know, take some profits, but you know, take some profits, but you know, symbolically, like you know, you need to symbolically, like you know, you need to symbolically, like you know, you need to give more than you're giving." give more than you're giving." give more than you're giving." And the British are And the British are And the British are and in particular, the oil company is and in particular, the oil company is and in particular, the oil company is very unwilling to adapt. It still is very unwilling to adapt. It still is very unwilling to adapt. It still is very much trapped in a sort of colonial very much trapped in a sort of colonial very much trapped in a sort of colonial mindset.

mindset. mindset. Um you know, the controversy continues Um you know, the controversy continues Um you know, the controversy continues until until until you get conservative governments coming you get conservative governments coming you get conservative governments coming to power in both Britain and in the US. to power in both Britain and in the US. to power in both Britain and in the US. Churchill and the conservatives come Churchill and the conservatives come Churchill and the conservatives come back to power back to power back to power uh in 1952. And and Eisenhower uh in 1952. And and Eisenhower uh in 1952. And and Eisenhower and the Republicans come take the White and the Republicans come take the White and the Republicans come take the White House for the first time in in 20 years House for the first time in in 20 years House for the first time in in 20 years at the beginning of 1953. And they ride at the beginning of 1953. And they ride at the beginning of 1953. And they ride to power in the in a wave of kind of to power in the in a wave of kind of to power in the in a wave of kind of anti-communist anti-communist anti-communist uh rhetoric. uh rhetoric. uh rhetoric. And the British see an opportunity. They And the British see an opportunity. They And the British see an opportunity. They see that this is a very strongly kind of see that this is a very strongly kind of see that this is a very strongly kind of Cold Warrior, anti-Soviet, Cold Warrior, anti-Soviet, Cold Warrior, anti-Soviet, anti-communist kind of new anti-communist kind of new anti-communist kind of new administration in the US. administration in the US. administration in the US. And they play up that angle. They don't And they play up that angle. They don't And they play up that angle. They don't go to the US and say, you know, help us go to the US and say, you know, help us go to the US and say, you know, help us out with our oil company. out with our oil company. out with our oil company. Uh but they say, "Listen, you know, Uh but they say, "Listen, you know, Uh but they say, "Listen, you know, you know, you know, you know, Iran is not ready for democracy for Iran is not ready for democracy for Iran is not ready for democracy for someone like Mosaddegh. someone like Mosaddegh. someone like Mosaddegh. The Russians are going to take The Russians are going to take The Russians are going to take advantage. They're going to foment a advantage. They're going to foment a advantage. They're going to foment a communist revolution. You know, look, communist revolution. You know, look, communist revolution. You know, look, he's already relying on Marxists to he's already relying on Marxists to he's already relying on Marxists to remain in power and so on." remain in power and so on." remain in power and so on." Uh and they increasingly destabilize the Uh and they increasingly destabilize the Uh and they increasingly destabilize the country, and they run you know, a lot of country, and they run you know, a lot of country, and they run you know, a lot of propaganda and false news stories in the propaganda and false news stories in the propaganda and false news stories in the newspapers and things like that.

newspapers and things like that. newspapers and things like that. Eventually, um Eventually, um Eventually, um you know, you know, peel away some of you know, you know, peel away some of you know, you know, peel away some of his allies and convince the US the CIA his allies and convince the US the CIA his allies and convince the US the CIA uh that that they should help help to uh that that they should help help to uh that that they should help help to overthrow the government in a coup. And overthrow the government in a coup. And overthrow the government in a coup. And they do that in in August of 1953. Okay, this is a big Your whole book Okay, this is a big Your whole book deals with this in such a way as to as deals with this in such a way as to as deals with this in such a way as to as to really I mean, that was that was too to really I mean, that was that was too to really I mean, that was that was too quick of a rundown is what I'd say. This quick of a rundown is what I'd say. This quick of a rundown is what I'd say. This is I considered 1953 to be the worst is I considered 1953 to be the worst is I considered 1953 to be the worst example of the concept of blowback that example of the concept of blowback that example of the concept of blowback that the United States has ever encountered. the United States has ever encountered. the United States has ever encountered. And and and one can say that you know, And and and one can say that you know, And and and one can say that you know, when I was growing up in the 1970s, we when I was growing up in the 1970s, we when I was growing up in the 1970s, we had this blowback by the end. Vietnam had this blowback by the end. Vietnam had this blowback by the end. Vietnam was considered a blowback situation. was considered a blowback situation. was considered a blowback situation. Watergate was a domestic political Watergate was a domestic political Watergate was a domestic political blowback situation. I mean, we felt like blowback situation. I mean, we felt like blowback situation. I mean, we felt like we were being whipsawed by reaping the we were being whipsawed by reaping the we were being whipsawed by reaping the whirlwind of a bunch of decisions that whirlwind of a bunch of decisions that whirlwind of a bunch of decisions that had been made two, three, four decades had been made two, three, four decades had been made two, three, four decades previously. And 1953 previously. And 1953 previously. And 1953 is a perfect example because by the time is a perfect example because by the time is a perfect example because by the time Iranians are taking Americans hostage in Iranians are taking Americans hostage in Iranians are taking Americans hostage in 1979, 1980, the advantages, right, the 1979, 1980, the advantages, right, the 1979, 1980, the advantages, right, the plus side of the blowback maneuver has plus side of the blowback maneuver has plus side of the blowback maneuver has been paying off for decades, but the been paying off for decades, but the been paying off for decades, but the bill comes due later. And when it did, bill comes due later. And when it did, bill comes due later. And when it did, most Americans did not I can I can say most Americans did not I can I can say most Americans did not I can I can say 98% of Americans made no connection 98% of Americans made no connection 98% of Americans made no connection between 1979 and 1980 and the fact that between 1979 and 1980 and the fact that between 1979 and 1980 and the fact that the the fuse on that explosive had been the the fuse on that explosive had been the the fuse on that explosive had been lit back in 1953. So let's talk a little lit back in 1953. So let's talk a little lit back in 1953. So let's talk a little bit about that. Most Americans still bit about that. Most Americans still bit about that. Most Americans still know nothing about Operation Ajax and

know nothing about Operation Ajax and know nothing about Operation Ajax and that whole thing. that whole thing. that whole thing. It's funny you say that. I mean, that It's funny you say that. I mean, that It's funny you say that. I mean, that Jimmy Carter was asked during the Jimmy Carter was asked during the Jimmy Carter was asked during the American American American the Iranian Revolution and the hostage the Iranian Revolution and the hostage the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis, he was asked by a reporter about crisis, he was asked by a reporter about crisis, he was asked by a reporter about 1953. You know, that 1953. You know, that 1953. You know, that the question was phrased exactly the question was phrased exactly the question was phrased exactly along the lines that you just did. along the lines that you just did. along the lines that you just did. Uh and he said that you know, that's Uh and he said that you know, that's Uh and he said that you know, that's ancient history. Oh. ancient history. Oh. ancient history. Oh. Um and I would have thought he would Um and I would have thought he would Um and I would have thought he would have known too. He was he was a pretty have known too. He was he was a pretty have known too. He was he was a pretty intelligent guy. Oh, but he was, and I'm intelligent guy. Oh, but he was, and I'm intelligent guy. Oh, but he was, and I'm sure he knew the history. But I mean, sure he knew the history. But I mean, sure he knew the history. But I mean, you know, he he he didn't entertain the you know, he he he didn't entertain the you know, he he he didn't entertain the premise of the question. premise of the question. premise of the question. And but of course, for Iranians, it was And but of course, for Iranians, it was And but of course, for Iranians, it was very much not ancient history. Uh it had very much not ancient history. Uh it had very much not ancient history. Uh it had been 25 years. been 25 years. been 25 years. And that you know, that generation that And that you know, that generation that And that you know, that generation that led the revolution in Iran in 1979 was led the revolution in Iran in 1979 was led the revolution in Iran in 1979 was was younger, angrier, more radical, and was younger, angrier, more radical, and was younger, angrier, more radical, and less compromising less compromising less compromising um with the United States than the um with the United States than the um with the United States than the generation of 1953. The young generation of 1953. The young generation of 1953. The young idealistic modern middle class of the idealistic modern middle class of the idealistic modern middle class of the early 1950s in Iran was very liberal and early 1950s in Iran was very liberal and early 1950s in Iran was very liberal and Western. And and Mosaddegh was a very Western. And and Mosaddegh was a very Western. And and Mosaddegh was a very pro-Western figure. He believed in pro-Western figure. He believed in pro-Western figure. He believed in constitutional government and constitutional government and constitutional government and parliamentary I mean, he was just parliamentary I mean, he was just parliamentary I mean, he was just obsessed with the idea of parliamentary obsessed with the idea of parliamentary obsessed with the idea of parliamentary procedure and the importance of procedure and the importance of procedure and the importance of parliamentary sovereignty and then parliamentary sovereignty and then parliamentary sovereignty and then popular representation.

popular representation. popular representation. He had and you know, he had been He had and you know, he had been He had and you know, he had been educated in Switzerland and in France educated in Switzerland and in France educated in Switzerland and in France and in constitutional law. and in constitutional law. and in constitutional law. You know, he inspired that generation of You know, he inspired that generation of You know, he inspired that generation of Iranians to believe in in you know, in Iranians to believe in in you know, in Iranians to believe in in you know, in liberal parliamentary constitutional liberal parliamentary constitutional liberal parliamentary constitutional democracy as a way to democracy as a way to democracy as a way to get your needs met and to hear and to be get your needs met and to hear and to be get your needs met and to hear and to be heard and to and to you know, liberate heard and to and to you know, liberate heard and to and to you know, liberate your country from foreign powers and so your country from foreign powers and so your country from foreign powers and so on. on. on. But the lesson that Iranians had drawn But the lesson that Iranians had drawn But the lesson that Iranians had drawn from that was that you know, the moment from that was that you know, the moment from that was that you know, the moment you tried to do that, you know, the you tried to do that, you know, the you tried to do that, you know, the world's greatest world's greatest world's greatest democracy, the United States, had had democracy, the United States, had had democracy, the United States, had had come in and overthrown the government come in and overthrown the government come in and overthrown the government because it was not seen as aligned with because it was not seen as aligned with because it was not seen as aligned with their interests. their interests. their interests. Um so 25 years later, it was very Um so 25 years later, it was very Um so 25 years later, it was very difficult for that aging generation of difficult for that aging generation of difficult for that aging generation of pro-Mosaddegh activists of the 1950s to pro-Mosaddegh activists of the 1950s to pro-Mosaddegh activists of the 1950s to say to the young radicals, "Well, you say to the young radicals, "Well, you say to the young radicals, "Well, you know, you have to know, you have to know, you have to publish newspapers and run petitions and publish newspapers and run petitions and publish newspapers and run petitions and you know, run for parliament." You know, you know, run for parliament." You know, you know, run for parliament." You know, they weren't having that. They said, they weren't having that. They said, they weren't having that. They said, "You we're not not doing that again. You "You we're not not doing that again. You "You we're not not doing that again. You guys did that, and you you got screwed." guys did that, and you you got screwed." guys did that, and you you got screwed." Um and they turned more to religion, or Um and they turned more to religion, or Um and they turned more to religion, or they turned more to Marxism. they turned more to Marxism. they turned more to Marxism. Uh so and those you know, forces fused Uh so and those you know, forces fused Uh so and those you know, forces fused in the Iranian Revolution of 1979 in the Iranian Revolution of 1979 in the Iranian Revolution of 1979 that overthrew the Shah.

that overthrew the Shah. that overthrew the Shah. Um Um Um So we we haven't really explained though So we we haven't really explained though So we we haven't really explained though what 1953 was. So in 1953, so so what 1953 was. So in 1953, so so what 1953 was. So in 1953, so so Mohammad Mosaddegh is is Mohammad Mosaddegh is is Mohammad Mosaddegh is is is is is is the prime minister, right? He he's is the prime minister, right? He he's is the prime minister, right? He he's elected the elected the elected the the head of the government, wants to the head of the government, wants to the head of the government, wants to renegotiate the deal with the the renegotiate the deal with the the renegotiate the deal with the the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. The British don't like this. The British don't like this. The British don't like this. Uh, if the way you frame it, which I Uh, if the way you frame it, which I Uh, if the way you frame it, which I don't consider to be incorrect, is sort don't consider to be incorrect, is sort don't consider to be incorrect, is sort of that the British are able to, in a of that the British are able to, in a of that the British are able to, in a way, way, way, poke Eisenhower in places where he's poke Eisenhower in places where he's poke Eisenhower in places where he's sensitive because you quoted him a sensitive because you quoted him a sensitive because you quoted him a couple of times in a way that made it couple of times in a way that made it couple of times in a way that made it sound like and I I generally like sound like and I I generally like sound like and I I generally like Eisenhower's anti He has a kind of an Eisenhower's anti He has a kind of an Eisenhower's anti He has a kind of an anti-imperial Middle America sort of anti-imperial Middle America sort of anti-imperial Middle America sort of Norman Rockwell side to him that comes Norman Rockwell side to him that comes Norman Rockwell side to him that comes out sometimes and you had a quote or two out sometimes and you had a quote or two out sometimes and you had a quote or two which sort of represented that in the which sort of represented that in the which sort of represented that in the book, but then I remember thinking to book, but then I remember thinking to book, but then I remember thinking to myself, yes, but then the British come myself, yes, but then the British come myself, yes, but then the British come back and find those sensitive spots on back and find those sensitive spots on back and find those sensitive spots on Eisenhower, the communism stuff and all Eisenhower, the communism stuff and all Eisenhower, the communism stuff and all the other thing. Can you explain a the other thing. Can you explain a the other thing. Can you explain a little bit this dynamic between the little bit this dynamic between the little bit this dynamic between the British who are still trying to to piece British who are still trying to to piece British who are still trying to to piece together together together little bits of colonial things where little bits of colonial things where little bits of colonial things where they can. A guy like Eisenhower who's they can. A guy like Eisenhower who's they can. A guy like Eisenhower who's not real sensitive to that, but both of not real sensitive to that, but both of not real sensitive to that, but both of them in probably, I'd say '53, we're them in probably, I'd say '53, we're them in probably, I'd say '53, we're talking about the depths of of the talking about the depths of of the talking about the depths of of the anti-communist anti-communist anti-communist red scare, the second red scare is what red scare, the second red scare is what red scare, the second red scare is what we call it in the US. Um, we call it in the US. Um, we call it in the US. Um, era. How were the British able to sort era. How were the British able to sort era. How were the British able to sort of manipulate Eisenhower into doing of manipulate Eisenhower into doing of manipulate Eisenhower into doing something that they wanted, but that something that they wanted, but that something that they wanted, but that Eisenhower could not be counted on to do Eisenhower could not be counted on to do Eisenhower could not be counted on to do it for the reasons the British wanted it

it for the reasons the British wanted it it for the reasons the British wanted it done? Yes, and it's important to say, done? Yes, and it's important to say, done? Yes, and it's important to say, you know, I don't know that it was you know, I don't know that it was you know, I don't know that it was Eisenhower that they that they really Eisenhower that they that they really Eisenhower that they that they really kind of convinced. You know, it was kind of convinced. You know, it was kind of convinced. You know, it was members of of his administration, in members of of his administration, in members of of his administration, in particular the Dulles brothers. particular the Dulles brothers. particular the Dulles brothers. Dulles brothers were always up for that Dulles brothers were always up for that Dulles brothers were always up for that though. I always get I get the feeling though. I always get I get the feeling though. I always get I get the feeling they were they never met a coup they they were they never met a coup they they were they never met a coup they didn't like. didn't like. didn't like. Well, but this was the first one, right? Well, but this was the first one, right? Well, but this was the first one, right? That's right. This is the the first one, That's right. This is the the first one, That's right. This is the the first one, exactly. Right, this set the model for exactly. Right, this set the model for exactly. Right, this set the model for all the other all the other all the other the big CIA's first one, right? We the big CIA's first one, right? We the big CIA's first one, right? We should tell that that there was no CIA, should tell that that there was no CIA, should tell that that there was no CIA, there was an OSS in the Second World there was an OSS in the Second World there was an OSS in the Second World War. After the Second World War, '47, War. After the Second World War, '47, War. After the Second World War, '47, '48, the creation of the national '48, the creation of the national '48, the creation of the national security state which included the CIA. security state which included the CIA. security state which included the CIA. So, it's this fledgling group of people So, it's this fledgling group of people So, it's this fledgling group of people that have grown out of the OSS and this that have grown out of the OSS and this that have grown out of the OSS and this is their first attempt at a covert is their first attempt at a covert is their first attempt at a covert overthrowing of a government. Did I get overthrowing of a government. Did I get overthrowing of a government. Did I get that correct? that correct? that correct? Yes, and it goes, you know, in their Yes, and it goes, you know, in their Yes, and it goes, you know, in their minds very very successfully, you know, minds very very successfully, you know, minds very very successfully, you know, kind of in quotes. kind of in quotes. kind of in quotes. It becomes a model, you know, it becomes It becomes a model, you know, it becomes It becomes a model, you know, it becomes a model in the next year in '54 in a model in the next year in '54 in a model in the next year in '54 in Guatemala and Chile in the '70s and Guatemala and Chile in the '70s and Guatemala and Chile in the '70s and again and again. again and again. again and again. You find the so-called dirty tricks You find the so-called dirty tricks You find the so-called dirty tricks operation that by the '70s had become operation that by the '70s had become operation that by the '70s had become kind of falling out of favor in many kind of falling out of favor in many kind of falling out of favor in many ways, but um, this, you know, this was a ways, but um, this, you know, this was a ways, but um, this, you know, this was a a watershed moment for the CIA and for a watershed moment for the CIA and for a watershed moment for the CIA and for American American American intelligence operation.

intelligence operation. intelligence operation. Um, yeah, they Look, they were able to Um, yeah, they Look, they were able to Um, yeah, they Look, they were able to the British were able to make their case the British were able to make their case the British were able to make their case on a number of levels. They had been, on a number of levels. They had been, on a number of levels. They had been, you know, they they had been bribing you know, they they had been bribing you know, they they had been bribing these like newspapers and going around these like newspapers and going around these like newspapers and going around to them and negative stories about to them and negative stories about to them and negative stories about Mosaddegh. They had been Mosaddegh. They had been Mosaddegh. They had been uh, bribing politicians to, you know, uh, bribing politicians to, you know, uh, bribing politicians to, you know, withdraw their support from him. They withdraw their support from him. They withdraw their support from him. They had been imposing very severe sanctions had been imposing very severe sanctions had been imposing very severe sanctions on the Iranian economy that had really on the Iranian economy that had really on the Iranian economy that had really been been been making uh, very difficult for Mosaddegh making uh, very difficult for Mosaddegh making uh, very difficult for Mosaddegh to govern. Uh, and they'd been working to govern. Uh, and they'd been working to govern. Uh, and they'd been working on the Shah as well, the king. We sort on the Shah as well, the king. We sort on the Shah as well, the king. We sort of forget about him. He's a young king of forget about him. He's a young king of forget about him. He's a young king at this point. You know, Iran is not a at this point. You know, Iran is not a at this point. You know, Iran is not a true constitutional democracy at this true constitutional democracy at this true constitutional democracy at this point. It's a point. It's a point. It's a sort of hybrid. Um, where the the Shah sort of hybrid. Um, where the the Shah sort of hybrid. Um, where the the Shah still has control over, you know, the still has control over, you know, the still has control over, you know, the defense ministry and the army and so on. defense ministry and the army and so on. defense ministry and the army and so on. Um, and isn't a huge fan of his prime Um, and isn't a huge fan of his prime Um, and isn't a huge fan of his prime minister, actually. He feels a little minister, actually. He feels a little minister, actually. He feels a little bit threatened by him and they're able bit threatened by him and they're able bit threatened by him and they're able to take advantage of that. But the case to take advantage of that. But the case to take advantage of that. But the case they make to the Americans, the CIA and they make to the Americans, the CIA and they make to the Americans, the CIA and the State Department in the new incoming the State Department in the new incoming the State Department in the new incoming administration, administration, administration, um, again is is a Cold War case. um, again is is a Cold War case. um, again is is a Cold War case. Um, and you know, they're they're able Um, and you know, they're they're able Um, and you know, they're they're able to do that by already having to do that by already having to do that by already having destabilized and weakened the Iranian destabilized and weakened the Iranian destabilized and weakened the Iranian government so much government so much government so much in all the ways that I just described.

in all the ways that I just described. in all the ways that I just described. Um, Um, Um, so it's very it becomes easy for them to so it's very it becomes easy for them to so it's very it becomes easy for them to say, "Look, we have this ready-made kind say, "Look, we have this ready-made kind say, "Look, we have this ready-made kind of plan for like how we can get rid of of plan for like how we can get rid of of plan for like how we can get rid of Mosaddegh. You know, he's not Mosaddegh. You know, he's not Mosaddegh. You know, he's not you know, you can't you know, you can't you know, you can't you know, you know, he's not a communist you know, you know, he's not a communist you know, you know, he's not a communist himself, but I mean there's there's a himself, but I mean there's there's a himself, but I mean there's there's a there's a risk that that Iran is going there's a risk that that Iran is going there's a risk that that Iran is going to open up to communism because of its to open up to communism because of its to open up to communism because of its instability and its inability to govern instability and its inability to govern instability and its inability to govern and so on and so on. and so on and so on. and so on and so on. And it's important to remember that, you And it's important to remember that, you And it's important to remember that, you know, the Democrats and the Republicans know, the Democrats and the Republicans know, the Democrats and the Republicans in the 19 in the 19 in the 19 uh, '40s, '50s, '60s had very different uh, '40s, '50s, '60s had very different uh, '40s, '50s, '60s had very different visions for how to deal with communism visions for how to deal with communism visions for how to deal with communism in the third world as they called it at in the third world as they called it at in the third world as they called it at the time. the time. the time. Um, the Democrats under Truman Um, the Democrats under Truman Um, the Democrats under Truman and later on the JFK as well, very much and later on the JFK as well, very much and later on the JFK as well, very much took the attitude that took the attitude that took the attitude that people like Mosaddegh were exactly what people like Mosaddegh were exactly what people like Mosaddegh were exactly what you wanted. you wanted. you wanted. Um, they were social democrats. They Um, they were social democrats. They Um, they were social democrats. They were they were liberals. They were, you were they were liberals. They were, you were they were liberals. They were, you know, they were building welfare states know, they were building welfare states know, they were building welfare states in their countries, but they were in their countries, but they were in their countries, but they were very anti-Soviet cuz they were I mean very anti-Soviet cuz they were I mean very anti-Soviet cuz they were I mean they were they were western. They were they were they were western. They were they were they were western. They were they were, you know, democrats. They they were, you know, democrats. They they were, you know, democrats. They were not they were not communists by any were not they were not communists by any were not they were not communists by any stretch of the imagination. What they stretch of the imagination. What they stretch of the imagination. What they were doing were doing were doing and what the Democrats liked was that and what the Democrats liked was that and what the Democrats liked was that they felt that leaders like that, by they felt that leaders like that, by they felt that leaders like that, by building welfare states, by, you know, building welfare states, by, you know, building welfare states, by, you know, funding education and literacy and funding education and literacy and funding education and literacy and health care and all these kinds of health care and all these kinds of health care and all these kinds of things and labor unions, would actually things and labor unions, would actually things and labor unions, would actually take away the appeal of communism uh, in take away the appeal of communism uh, in take away the appeal of communism uh, in in in impoverished countries. Give in in impoverished countries. Give in in impoverished countries. Give people less of a reason to turn to people less of a reason to turn to people less of a reason to turn to communism.

communism. communism. Uh, the Republicans saw it very Uh, the Republicans saw it very Uh, the Republicans saw it very differently. They they said, "No, it's a differently. They they said, "No, it's a differently. They they said, "No, it's a slippery slope. You know, anything that slippery slope. You know, anything that slippery slope. You know, anything that looks or smells like a like communism is looks or smells like a like communism is looks or smells like a like communism is going to is is might as well be a going to is is might as well be a going to is is might as well be a communist. You know, it's communist. You know, it's communist. You know, it's uh, in a in a developing country, people uh, in a in a developing country, people uh, in a in a developing country, people aren't don't have a democratic aren't don't have a democratic aren't don't have a democratic tradition. They're not ready for tradition. They're not ready for tradition. They're not ready for democracy. Um, democracy. Um, democracy. Um, and and and um, there's too much of a risk of um, there's too much of a risk of um, there's too much of a risk of destabilization and the Soviets will destabilization and the Soviets will destabilization and the Soviets will just take advantage and they'll foment a just take advantage and they'll foment a just take advantage and they'll foment a coup and they'll, you know, they'll have coup and they'll, you know, they'll have coup and they'll, you know, they'll have a communist revolution. a communist revolution. a communist revolution. Now, both of these were were reasonable Now, both of these were were reasonable Now, both of these were were reasonable attitudes in their own way. I mean they attitudes in their own way. I mean they attitudes in their own way. I mean they sort of made sense. sort of made sense. sort of made sense. Um, but as long as Truman had been in Um, but as long as Truman had been in Um, but as long as Truman had been in power, you know, they had uh, power, you know, they had uh, power, you know, they had uh, the British hadn't really felt that they the British hadn't really felt that they the British hadn't really felt that they had a friend in the US when it came to had a friend in the US when it came to had a friend in the US when it came to Iran. They were very frustrated by the Iran. They were very frustrated by the Iran. They were very frustrated by the Americans. They felt that Americans. They felt that Americans. They felt that that the Truman administration just that the Truman administration just that the Truman administration just didn't understand what they were dealing didn't understand what they were dealing didn't understand what they were dealing you know, that they were young these you know, that they were young these you know, that they were young these sort of American naive neophytes, you sort of American naive neophytes, you sort of American naive neophytes, you know, who were idealistic and you know, know, who were idealistic and you know, know, who were idealistic and you know, there were a lot of, you know, kind of there were a lot of, you know, kind of there were a lot of, you know, kind of communications back and forth between communications back and forth between communications back and forth between the British and American governments. the British and American governments. the British and American governments. You know, so the British were saying, You know, so the British were saying, You know, so the British were saying, "You know, you don't understand. We've "You know, you don't understand. We've "You know, you don't understand. We've been dealing with these devious persons been dealing with these devious persons been dealing with these devious persons for, you know, for decades, you know, for, you know, for decades, you know, for, you know, for decades, you know, for for for much longer than you have. I mean, you much longer than you have. I mean, you much longer than you have. I mean, you know, know, know, you just you have to take a tough line, you just you have to take a tough line, you just you have to take a tough line, you know, you know, you know, um, um, um, and they were frustrated because they and they were frustrated because they and they were frustrated because they weren't getting cooperation from the weren't getting cooperation from the weren't getting cooperation from the Truman administration. You know, Truman Truman administration. You know, Truman Truman administration. You know, Truman was trying to take kind of an was trying to take kind of an was trying to take kind of an even-handed approach.

even-handed approach. even-handed approach. But when Eisenhower came in and it came But when Eisenhower came in and it came But when Eisenhower came in and it came in you know, the '52 election was very in you know, the '52 election was very in you know, the '52 election was very much fought on the idea that much fought on the idea that much fought on the idea that you know, that there were, you know, you know, that there were, you know, you know, that there were, you know, pinkos and closet reds in the State pinkos and closet reds in the State pinkos and closet reds in the State Department and you know, that the Truman Department and you know, that the Truman Department and you know, that the Truman administration didn't really want to win administration didn't really want to win administration didn't really want to win the Korean War because the State the Korean War because the State the Korean War because the State Department was Well, this is the yeah, Department was Well, this is the yeah, Department was Well, this is the yeah, this is the McCarthy era blooming, this is the McCarthy era blooming, this is the McCarthy era blooming, absolutely. absolutely. absolutely. and that kind of fire-breathing and that kind of fire-breathing and that kind of fire-breathing anti-communism, um, anti-communism, um, anti-communism, um, you know, was a you know, was a you know, was a for Britain, they sensed that this was for Britain, they sensed that this was for Britain, they sensed that this was their opportunity. This was their their opportunity. This was their their opportunity. This was their moment. That's how they could make their moment. That's how they could make their moment. That's how they could make their case. Not by talking about oil and case. Not by talking about oil and case. Not by talking about oil and profits and things like that. profits and things like that. profits and things like that. Um, but by saying this is dangerous. Um, but by saying this is dangerous. Um, but by saying this is dangerous. Like you can't, you know, Like you can't, you know, Like you can't, you know, Iran is getting destabilized. You need Iran is getting destabilized. You need Iran is getting destabilized. You need to do something. to do something. to do something. And you had mentioned, you know, today And you had mentioned, you know, today And you had mentioned, you know, today we would call it fake news would be the we would call it fake news would be the we would call it fake news would be the 21st century term for it, but you would 21st century term for it, but you would 21st century term for it, but you would talked about the news coverage and back talked about the news coverage and back talked about the news coverage and back then of course in the West we had many then of course in the West we had many then of course in the West we had many fewer outlets. fewer outlets. fewer outlets. So, it would have been almost So, it would have been almost So, it would have been almost the same message across multiple the same message across multiple the same message across multiple different media type platforms back different media type platforms back different media type platforms back then, broadcast networks, newspapers, then, broadcast networks, newspapers, then, broadcast networks, newspapers, radio. Um, but when you had run down radio. Um, but when you had run down radio. Um, but when you had run down sort of the list of how it was being sort of the list of how it was being sort of the list of how it was being covered, well, you can see I mean the covered, well, you can see I mean the covered, well, you can see I mean the funny thing is is we think about that as funny thing is is we think about that as funny thing is is we think about that as the the good old days of journalism. I the the good old days of journalism. I the the good old days of journalism. I like to say that the good old days of like to say that the good old days of like to say that the good old days of journalism were between like 1968 and journalism were between like 1968 and journalism were between like 1968 and 1988 and this was before the era This 1988 and this was before the era This 1988 and this was before the era This was this was post yellow journalism, was this was post yellow journalism, was this was post yellow journalism, pre-modern journalism, but but it was a pre-modern journalism, but but it was a pre-modern journalism, but but it was a fake news is not a bad way to describe fake news is not a bad way to describe fake news is not a bad way to describe the way the Western public was was the way the Western public was was the way the Western public was was receiving their information about this receiving their information about this receiving their information about this 1953 situation, wasn't it?

1953 situation, wasn't it? 1953 situation, wasn't it? Yeah, it's striking, right? Journalism Yeah, it's striking, right? Journalism Yeah, it's striking, right? Journalism was done very differently back then. It was done very differently back then. It was done very differently back then. It was a sort of gentleman's pursuit. It was a sort of gentleman's pursuit. It was a sort of gentleman's pursuit. It wasn't wasn't wasn't It wasn't quite the same level of rigor It wasn't quite the same level of rigor It wasn't quite the same level of rigor and fact-checking and so on. And and you and fact-checking and so on. And and you and fact-checking and so on. And and you look at the newspapers of the time, it's look at the newspapers of the time, it's look at the newspapers of the time, it's extraordinary the way they reported it. extraordinary the way they reported it. extraordinary the way they reported it. You look at the New York Times in August You look at the New York Times in August You look at the New York Times in August of 1953, the day after the coup. of 1953, the day after the coup. of 1953, the day after the coup. And, you know, And, you know, And, you know, the report is the report is the report is I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the exact words of the headline, but it's exact words of the headline, but it's exact words of the headline, but it's something along the lines of, you know, something along the lines of, you know, something along the lines of, you know, um, um, um, a coup attempt is thwarted in Iran, that a coup attempt is thwarted in Iran, that a coup attempt is thwarted in Iran, that Mosaddegh had tried to overthrow the Mosaddegh had tried to overthrow the Mosaddegh had tried to overthrow the Shah. Um, and that uh, you know, that Shah. Um, and that uh, you know, that Shah. Um, and that uh, you know, that that he'd been thwarted. that he'd been thwarted. that he'd been thwarted. Um, which is the the literal opposite of Um, which is the the literal opposite of Um, which is the the literal opposite of what happened, right? what happened, right? what happened, right? This idea that the prime minister was This idea that the prime minister was This idea that the prime minister was trying to overthrow the king and that, trying to overthrow the king and that, trying to overthrow the king and that, you know, that that the popular this you know, that that the popular this you know, that that the popular this popular king had actually popular king had actually popular king had actually managed to to, you know, maintain managed to to, you know, maintain managed to to, you know, maintain himself in power and, you know, himself in power and, you know, himself in power and, you know, that the the the grateful public was that the the the grateful public was that the the the grateful public was cheered and relieved by this. And it's cheered and relieved by this. And it's cheered and relieved by this. And it's the precise opposite of what actually the precise opposite of what actually the precise opposite of what actually happened. happened. happened. Um, but over time, you know, the truth I Um, but over time, you know, the truth I Um, but over time, you know, the truth I mean in Iran, people I think many people mean in Iran, people I think many people mean in Iran, people I think many people you know, already kind of suspected um, you know, already kind of suspected um, you know, already kind of suspected um, the CIA hand and over time it became the CIA hand and over time it became the CIA hand and over time it became more and more of an open secret until 20 more and more of an open secret until 20 more and more of an open secret until 20 years later in 19 years later in 19 years later in 19 you know, you know, you know, '78 or '80, I think it was '81, Kermit '78 or '80, I think it was '81, Kermit '78 or '80, I think it was '81, Kermit Roosevelt, who was one of the the kind Roosevelt, who was one of the the kind Roosevelt, who was one of the the kind of the real masterminds of the coup, of the real masterminds of the coup, of the real masterminds of the coup, publishes his memoir about it publishes his memoir about it publishes his memoir about it and was very open about his role and was very open about his role and was very open about his role and the stacks of cash that were being and the stacks of cash that were being and the stacks of cash that were being handed out in Tehran and the and the handed out in Tehran and the and the handed out in Tehran and the and the various dirty tricks that were being various dirty tricks that were being various dirty tricks that were being undertaken. And then finally in 2000, undertaken. And then finally in 2000, undertaken. And then finally in 2000, the New York Times published also the New York Times published also the New York Times published also the there were

the there were the there were the State Department released some uh, the State Department released some uh, the State Department released some uh, documents and they were published in the documents and they were published in the documents and they were published in the New York Times at length in in great New York Times at length in in great New York Times at length in in great length. Um, length. Um, length. Um, uh, the sort of the um, uh, the sort of the um, uh, the sort of the um, uh, uh, uh, the CIA's own internal the CIA's own internal the CIA's own internal report on the coup. Uh, they still report on the coup. Uh, they still report on the coup. Uh, they still censored and redacted some of the censored and redacted some of the censored and redacted some of the language, but most of it was there. And language, but most of it was there. And language, but most of it was there. And this was literally a 70-page document, this was literally a 70-page document, this was literally a 70-page document, internal report written by the CIA internal report written by the CIA internal report written by the CIA describing in detail their how they did describing in detail their how they did describing in detail their how they did it. So, there was no disputing it by it. So, there was no disputing it by it. So, there was no disputing it by then. then. then. So, in '53, the democratically elected So, in '53, the democratically elected So, in '53, the democratically elected Mosaddegh is overthrown. He's replaced Mosaddegh is overthrown. He's replaced Mosaddegh is overthrown. He's replaced by the absolute monarch by the absolute monarch by the absolute monarch who, you know, the feel you get for this who, you know, the feel you get for this who, you know, the feel you get for this guy that he's got an almost Kaiser guy that he's got an almost Kaiser guy that he's got an almost Kaiser Wilhelm kind of vibe. Um, you know, Wilhelm kind of vibe. Um, you know, Wilhelm kind of vibe. Um, you know, fascinated by the military stuff, but fascinated by the military stuff, but fascinated by the military stuff, but not exa- I I mean maybe go into a little not exa- I I mean maybe go into a little not exa- I I mean maybe go into a little depth because this guy is going to be depth because this guy is going to be depth because this guy is going to be the one who determines the feel of this the one who determines the feel of this the one who determines the feel of this relationship for decades. Tell us a relationship for decades. Tell us a relationship for decades. Tell us a little bit about the last Shah of Iran. little bit about the last Shah of Iran. little bit about the last Shah of Iran. He's an inscrutable figure. I mean, you He's an inscrutable figure. I mean, you He's an inscrutable figure. I mean, you know, like so many know, like so many know, like so many uh you know, major leaders in world uh you know, major leaders in world uh you know, major leaders in world history. I mean, you know, no who really history. I mean, you know, no who really history. I mean, you know, no who really knows the Shah? Who really knows who he knows the Shah? Who really knows who he knows the Shah? Who really knows who he was and what made him tick? Um you know, was and what made him tick? Um you know, was and what made him tick? Um you know, but there are there are there is a but there are there are there is a but there are there are there is a an impression that we have of him.

an impression that we have of him. an impression that we have of him. Um Um Um you know, he was in many ways in his you know, he was in many ways in his you know, he was in many ways in his father's shadow. His father had been had father's shadow. His father had been had father's shadow. His father had been had come out of nowhere after overthrowing come out of nowhere after overthrowing come out of nowhere after overthrowing the previous dynasty. Uh you know, he'd the previous dynasty. Uh you know, he'd the previous dynasty. Uh you know, he'd been a been a been a rough, crude, illiterate uh Cossack rough, crude, illiterate uh Cossack rough, crude, illiterate uh Cossack soldier in the 19 uh '20s. soldier in the 19 uh '20s. soldier in the 19 uh '20s. Um but the son, the younger Shah, um Um but the son, the younger Shah, um Um but the son, the younger Shah, um you know, had been sent off to boarding you know, had been sent off to boarding you know, had been sent off to boarding school in Switzerland school in Switzerland school in Switzerland uh to Le Rosey uh one of the one of the uh to Le Rosey uh one of the one of the uh to Le Rosey uh one of the one of the most elite private boarding schools in most elite private boarding schools in most elite private boarding schools in the world. the world. the world. Um was a very cosmopolitan, refined, Um was a very cosmopolitan, refined, Um was a very cosmopolitan, refined, well-mannered young man, a very well-mannered young man, a very well-mannered young man, a very good-looking, you know, sort of a good-looking, you know, sort of a good-looking, you know, sort of a ladies' man. ladies' man. ladies' man. Um but not a tough guy like his father, Um but not a tough guy like his father, Um but not a tough guy like his father, you know. you know. you know. And there was always a sense and he And there was always a sense and he And there was always a sense and he writes about it in his own memoirs that writes about it in his own memoirs that writes about it in his own memoirs that you could you know, you could you know, you could you know, he talks about how his father's eyes he talks about how his father's eyes he talks about how his father's eyes could make him sort of shrivel up could make him sort of shrivel up could make him sort of shrivel up inside. I mean, he was terrified of his inside. I mean, he was terrified of his inside. I mean, he was terrified of his father. He said it was a relationship of father. He said it was a relationship of father. He said it was a relationship of awe and fear but not always of love, you awe and fear but not always of love, you awe and fear but not always of love, you know. know. know. Um and you know, I don't want to Um and you know, I don't want to Um and you know, I don't want to put someone on the couch, you know, who put someone on the couch, you know, who put someone on the couch, you know, who you know, um you know, um you know, um died, you know, when I was 7 years old. died, you know, when I was 7 years old. died, you know, when I was 7 years old. I mean, it's not you know, I I mean, I mean, it's not you know, I I mean, I mean, it's not you know, I I mean, it's I have no right to sort of it's I have no right to sort of it's I have no right to sort of psychoanalyze the Shah.

psychoanalyze the Shah. psychoanalyze the Shah. Um but there was a sense that Um but there was a sense that Um but there was a sense that there was often a chip on his shoulder there was often a chip on his shoulder there was often a chip on his shoulder when it came to military affairs. when it came to military affairs. when it came to military affairs. From the very beginning um From the very beginning um From the very beginning um he was being quizzed and drilled by his he was being quizzed and drilled by his he was being quizzed and drilled by his father about, you know, kind of military father about, you know, kind of military father about, you know, kind of military questions and questions and questions and you know, his whole you know, his whole you know, his whole reign um he was obsessed with with reign um he was obsessed with with reign um he was obsessed with with buying really big, fancy, expensive buying really big, fancy, expensive buying really big, fancy, expensive military hardware, you know, the latest military hardware, you know, the latest military hardware, you know, the latest fighter jets, the latest tanks and fighter jets, the latest tanks and fighter jets, the latest tanks and helicopters and everything and much of helicopters and everything and much of helicopters and everything and much of it from the United States. it from the United States. it from the United States. By the 1970s, the Nixon administration By the 1970s, the Nixon administration By the 1970s, the Nixon administration who loved the Shah who loved the Shah who loved the Shah uh uh uh gave him a a blank check to buy all the gave him a a blank check to buy all the gave him a a blank check to buy all the American military hardware he wanted. American military hardware he wanted. American military hardware he wanted. But before that, you know, there'd been But before that, you know, there'd been But before that, you know, there'd been some resistance especially from the some resistance especially from the some resistance especially from the Kennedy administration. Kennedy administration. Kennedy administration. Um Um Um you know, who told him, "Look, no, you you know, who told him, "Look, no, you you know, who told him, "Look, no, you need to you need to you need to you invest in your country and and you know, invest in your country and and you know, invest in your country and and you know, literacy and literacy and literacy and political reform and people and rights political reform and people and rights political reform and people and rights and things like that, and things like that, and things like that, health care so on, health care so on, health care so on, land reform." And he did a lot of that. land reform." And he did a lot of that. land reform." And he did a lot of that. Um but it wasn't always done as well as Um but it wasn't always done as well as Um but it wasn't always done as well as it could have been done. I mean, and he it could have been done. I mean, and he it could have been done. I mean, and he was and and it was never accompanied by was and and it was never accompanied by was and and it was never accompanied by political reform or real political political reform or real political political reform or real political participation.

participation. participation. Genuine avenues for people to Genuine avenues for people to Genuine avenues for people to participate in election in parliamentary participate in election in parliamentary participate in election in parliamentary elections. Parliamentary elections elections. Parliamentary elections elections. Parliamentary elections were largely a joke in the 1950s and were largely a joke in the 1950s and were largely a joke in the 1950s and '60s and '70s anyway. '60s and '70s anyway. '60s and '70s anyway. Um Um Um but he really cared about the military. but he really cared about the military. but he really cared about the military. All right, he was a strong man. He was a All right, he was a strong man. He was a All right, he was a strong man. He was a tough guy. He was a sort of a right-wing tough guy. He was a sort of a right-wing tough guy. He was a sort of a right-wing leader. Um he was a believer in strength leader. Um he was a believer in strength leader. Um he was a believer in strength and militarism as a way to and militarism as a way to and militarism as a way to protect the country um against communism protect the country um against communism protect the country um against communism or against any other kind of external or against any other kind of external or against any other kind of external threat. threat. threat. Give us an idea I was going to say give Give us an idea I was going to say give Give us an idea I was going to say give us an idea of the amount cuz you blew my us an idea of the amount cuz you blew my us an idea of the amount cuz you blew my mind with some of the I I if you just mind with some of the I I if you just mind with some of the I I if you just asked a trivia question, "Who was the asked a trivia question, "Who was the asked a trivia question, "Who was the United States' biggest arms United States' biggest arms United States' biggest arms um customer in the in in certain years um customer in the in in certain years um customer in the in in certain years in the 1970s?" I would never have said in the 1970s?" I would never have said in the 1970s?" I would never have said Iran. But weren't they one of the top US Iran. But weren't they one of the top US Iran. But weren't they one of the top US customers for arms? You said that they customers for arms? You said that they customers for arms? You said that they practically saved several of the uh of practically saved several of the uh of practically saved several of the uh of of of some of our um aerospace of of some of our um aerospace of of some of our um aerospace companies, I believe. companies, I believe. companies, I believe. Absolutely. A lot of I mean, Grumman and Absolutely. A lot of I mean, Grumman and Absolutely. A lot of I mean, Grumman and um um um uh uh uh Westinghouse, so many of these companies Westinghouse, so many of these companies Westinghouse, so many of these companies um um um Boeing, I mean, were struggling in the Boeing, I mean, were struggling in the Boeing, I mean, were struggling in the 1970s 1970s. Uh it was a you know, 1970s 1970s. Uh it was a you know, 1970s 1970s. Uh it was a you know, economically difficult time. Job lots of economically difficult time. Job lots of economically difficult time. Job lots of job layoffs and so on, unemployment.

job layoffs and so on, unemployment. job layoffs and so on, unemployment. Um but yeah, I mean, Iran Um but yeah, I mean, Iran Um but yeah, I mean, Iran I mean, so there was that angle as well. I mean, so there was that angle as well. I mean, so there was that angle as well. I mean, the Nixon administration was I mean, the Nixon administration was I mean, the Nixon administration was quite happy to help save some of these quite happy to help save some of these quite happy to help save some of these companies, you know, with gigantic companies, you know, with gigantic companies, you know, with gigantic Iranian contract. Iranian contract. Iranian contract. Uh but it was more than that. It's part Uh but it was more than that. It's part Uh but it was more than that. It's part of the so-called Nixon doctrine. Uh of the so-called Nixon doctrine. Uh of the so-called Nixon doctrine. Uh Nixon had come to Nixon had come to Nixon had come to you know, to power in the beginning you know, to power in the beginning you know, to power in the beginning years of the Vietnam War when there was years of the Vietnam War when there was years of the Vietnam War when there was a real attempt to try to a real attempt to try to a real attempt to try to exit some of these quagmires uh in the exit some of these quagmires uh in the exit some of these quagmires uh in the third world uh and you know, he really third world uh and you know, he really third world uh and you know, he really liked the idea that um liked the idea that um liked the idea that um you know, American for American foreign you know, American for American foreign you know, American for American foreign policy, it was important to find loyal, policy, it was important to find loyal, policy, it was important to find loyal, helpful helpful helpful regional powers uh that could protect regional powers uh that could protect regional powers uh that could protect and advance American interests and advance American interests and advance American interests um in their respective regions and could um in their respective regions and could um in their respective regions and could be rewarded with uh arms sales. And the be rewarded with uh arms sales. And the be rewarded with uh arms sales. And the Shah of Iran was probably the ultimate Shah of Iran was probably the ultimate Shah of Iran was probably the ultimate epitome of that. Um the sort of epitome of that. Um the sort of epitome of that. Um the sort of policeman of the Persian Gulf uh for the policeman of the Persian Gulf uh for the policeman of the Persian Gulf uh for the United States. United States. United States. Um you know, the famous you know, moment Um you know, the famous you know, moment Um you know, the famous you know, moment in when Nixon goes to Tehran with Henry in when Nixon goes to Tehran with Henry in when Nixon goes to Tehran with Henry Kissinger and you know, leans across the Kissinger and you know, leans across the Kissinger and you know, leans across the table and says to him, you know, table and says to him, you know, table and says to him, you know, "Protect me. "Protect me. "Protect me. Uh that's what I need here. You know, Uh that's what I need here. You know, Uh that's what I need here. You know, I'll give you all the weapons you want I'll give you all the weapons you want I'll give you all the weapons you want but uh you know, protect us here. Um but uh you know, protect us here. Um but uh you know, protect us here. Um because the US is not in the position to because the US is not in the position to because the US is not in the position to be able to uh police the Persian Gulf uh be able to uh police the Persian Gulf uh be able to uh police the Persian Gulf uh you know, in the 1970s.

you know, in the 1970s. you know, in the 1970s. Now, it's not a one-way street. Of Now, it's not a one-way street. Of Now, it's not a one-way street. Of course, the Shah was always very also course, the Shah was always very also course, the Shah was always very also very good at manipulating the US uh and very good at manipulating the US uh and very good at manipulating the US uh and kind of getting what he wants out of the kind of getting what he wants out of the kind of getting what he wants out of the US. And he was a By the 1970s, a a US. And he was a By the 1970s, a a US. And he was a By the 1970s, a a seasoned, experienced, smart leader who seasoned, experienced, smart leader who seasoned, experienced, smart leader who knows and understands what kind of knows and understands what kind of knows and understands what kind of global geopolitics very well. global geopolitics very well. global geopolitics very well. And the relationship between him and And the relationship between him and And the relationship between him and Richard Nixon is very good by the 1970s. Richard Nixon is very good by the 1970s. Richard Nixon is very good by the 1970s. They're they're they're big admirers of They're they're they're big admirers of They're they're they're big admirers of each other. each other. each other. Uh but of course, they both go down in Uh but of course, they both go down in Uh but of course, they both go down in some kind of ignominy. some kind of ignominy. some kind of ignominy. Well, let's talk about that cuz from a Well, let's talk about that cuz from a Well, let's talk about that cuz from a geo if we look at this just from a geo if we look at this just from a geo if we look at this just from a geo-strategic standpoint, forget human geo-strategic standpoint, forget human geo-strategic standpoint, forget human rights, forget forget religion, forget rights, forget forget religion, forget rights, forget forget religion, forget all these other things and let's just all these other things and let's just all these other things and let's just talk, you know, the old Risk board game, talk, you know, the old Risk board game, talk, you know, the old Risk board game, right? Um the difference between having right? Um the difference between having right? Um the difference between having a friendly Iran in our camp and what the a friendly Iran in our camp and what the a friendly Iran in our camp and what the Middle East and that whole region looks Middle East and that whole region looks Middle East and that whole region looks like to not having a to having an like to not having a to having an like to not having a to having an adversarial Iran is so different that adversarial Iran is so different that adversarial Iran is so different that this is where you really see the damage this is where you really see the damage this is where you really see the damage from the blowback from 1953. from the blowback from 1953. from the blowback from 1953. I mean, if you play the what if game I mean, if you play the what if game I mean, if you play the what if game today and say, "If you have a friendly today and say, "If you have a friendly today and say, "If you have a friendly Iran today, how different is the entire Iran today, how different is the entire Iran today, how different is the entire region?" Um I I mean, I I I would region?" Um I I mean, I I I would region?" Um I I mean, I I I would struggle to to to even begin to examine struggle to to to even begin to examine struggle to to to even begin to examine the ramifications of something like the ramifications of something like the ramifications of something like that. Can you give us an idea though that. Can you give us an idea though that. Can you give us an idea though about how important at least in the you about how important at least in the you about how important at least in the you know, without fantasizing about what it know, without fantasizing about what it know, without fantasizing about what it might be like today, how important was might be like today, how important was might be like today, how important was it in the mid-1970s for the United it in the mid-1970s for the United it in the mid-1970s for the United States and and and its allies? Look, the States and and and its allies? Look, the States and and and its allies? Look, the Iranian Revolution, forgotten now cuz it Iranian Revolution, forgotten now cuz it Iranian Revolution, forgotten now cuz it was kind of a long time ago. But the was kind of a long time ago. But the was kind of a long time ago. But the Iranian Revolution of 1979 was a

Iranian Revolution of 1979 was a Iranian Revolution of 1979 was a devastating blow for American foreign devastating blow for American foreign devastating blow for American foreign policy. Absolutely devastating. No one policy. Absolutely devastating. No one policy. Absolutely devastating. No one saw it coming. saw it coming. saw it coming. And it was And it was And it was one of the cataclysmic one of the cataclysmic one of the cataclysmic failures of the Carter administration or failures of the Carter administration or failures of the Carter administration or it was rather it was seen that way. I it was rather it was seen that way. I it was rather it was seen that way. I think Carter sometimes gets too much of think Carter sometimes gets too much of think Carter sometimes gets too much of the blame for the Iranian Revolution. the blame for the Iranian Revolution. the blame for the Iranian Revolution. And he was raked across the coals by his And he was raked across the coals by his And he was raked across the coals by his political enemies, by Kissinger, by the political enemies, by Kissinger, by the political enemies, by Kissinger, by the Republicans who constantly harped on the Republicans who constantly harped on the Republicans who constantly harped on the idea that he was the the man who lost idea that he was the the man who lost idea that he was the the man who lost Iran, quote unquote. Iran, quote unquote. Iran, quote unquote. Uh Iran was a very, very important Uh Iran was a very, very important Uh Iran was a very, very important American ally in the 1970s. It was it American ally in the 1970s. It was it American ally in the 1970s. It was it was was was routinely described by American routinely described by American routinely described by American president, you know, LBJ described it, president, you know, LBJ described it, president, you know, LBJ described it, you know, he said what was happening in you know, he said what was happening in you know, he said what was happening in Iran was just about the best thing Iran was just about the best thing Iran was just about the best thing going, you know, and you know, going, you know, and you know, going, you know, and you know, um um um routinely American officials and routinely American officials and routinely American officials and presidents would describe Iran as an presidents would describe Iran as an presidents would describe Iran as an island of stability in an otherwise island of stability in an otherwise island of stability in an otherwise troubled region. Like it's just critical troubled region. Like it's just critical troubled region. Like it's just critical to American foreign policy. There was no to American foreign policy. There was no to American foreign policy. There was no other ally that that bought that level other ally that that bought that level other ally that that bought that level of weaponry, that that advanced American of weaponry, that that advanced American of weaponry, that that advanced American interests uh so uh so broadly in the interests uh so uh so broadly in the interests uh so uh so broadly in the region and not just its own, you know, region and not just its own, you know, region and not just its own, you know, interests but but American interests uh interests but but American interests uh interests but but American interests uh in in various parts of the Middle East.

in in various parts of the Middle East. in in various parts of the Middle East. Um you know, Iran was and always is and Um you know, Iran was and always is and Um you know, Iran was and always is and continues to be a very important country continues to be a very important country continues to be a very important country in the region. You know, there's a in the region. You know, there's a in the region. You know, there's a reason why I'm so so obsessed with any reason why I'm so so obsessed with any reason why I'm so so obsessed with any kind of kind of kind of hostility towards Iran these days hostility towards Iran these days hostility towards Iran these days because because because look, it's a big country. It's a country look, it's a big country. It's a country look, it's a big country. It's a country of, you know, today 80 million people, of, you know, today 80 million people, of, you know, today 80 million people, at the time about 35 million people. at the time about 35 million people. at the time about 35 million people. Um but one of the largest in the region Um but one of the largest in the region Um but one of the largest in the region both in terms of population and uh both in terms of population and uh both in terms of population and uh geography. And of course, one of the geography. And of course, one of the geography. And of course, one of the world's largest oil producers and you world's largest oil producers and you world's largest oil producers and you know, and and occupies a a key strategic know, and and occupies a a key strategic know, and and occupies a a key strategic position between the Soviet Union and position between the Soviet Union and position between the Soviet Union and the Persian Gulf and all these kinds of the Persian Gulf and all these kinds of the Persian Gulf and all these kinds of things. things. things. Um and we lost it. You know, I don't Um and we lost it. You know, I don't Um and we lost it. You know, I don't want to put it in these kinds of want to put it in these kinds of want to put it in these kinds of American foreign purely kind of American American foreign purely kind of American American foreign purely kind of American foreign policy terms but if you do, it's foreign policy terms but if you do, it's foreign policy terms but if you do, it's like we lost Iran. like we lost Iran. like we lost Iran. Uh and that was a huge blow. Uh and that was a huge blow. Uh and that was a huge blow. Uh and but not just that, you know, it Uh and but not just that, you know, it Uh and but not just that, you know, it compounded by the fact compounded by the fact compounded by the fact the way we lost Iran which was that it the way we lost Iran which was that it the way we lost Iran which was that it was you know, it was lost in a on the was you know, it was lost in a on the was you know, it was lost in a on the back of a religious revolution that back of a religious revolution that back of a religious revolution that rejected rejected rejected all of the the basic premises of the all of the the basic premises of the all of the the basic premises of the Cold War. You know, every you know, Cold War. You know, every you know, Cold War. You know, every you know, the concern had been at the time that if the concern had been at the time that if the concern had been at the time that if there was a revolution in a third world there was a revolution in a third world there was a revolution in a third world country, it's going to be a communist country, it's going to be a communist country, it's going to be a communist revolution. No one saw a religious revolution. No one saw a religious revolution. No one saw a religious revolution coming. It was the world's It revolution coming. It was the world's It revolution coming. It was the world's It was the first great religious revolution was the first great religious revolution was the first great religious revolution of the modern era.

of the modern era. of the modern era. Uh and you know, it was just completely Uh and you know, it was just completely Uh and you know, it was just completely outside the playbook and it inspired outside the playbook and it inspired outside the playbook and it inspired other types of movements like it in other types of movements like it in other types of movements like it in Afghanistan, in Lebanon, in other parts Afghanistan, in Lebanon, in other parts Afghanistan, in Lebanon, in other parts of the Middle East. of the Middle East. of the Middle East. Uh you know, it's something that Uh you know, it's something that Uh you know, it's something that the you know, it helped to fuel a lot of the you know, it helped to fuel a lot of the you know, it helped to fuel a lot of the kind of really really really really uh and beyond um you know, because the uh and beyond um you know, because the uh and beyond um you know, because the lesson the big lesson that was drawn lesson the big lesson that was drawn lesson the big lesson that was drawn actually by so many people throughout actually by so many people throughout actually by so many people throughout the region the region the region was here you had a king was here you had a king was here you had a king who had the world's I think it was who had the world's I think it was who had the world's I think it was fourth or fifth largest army fourth or fifth largest army fourth or fifth largest army uh 400,000 men uh 400,000 men uh 400,000 men one of the world's largest and most one of the world's largest and most one of the world's largest and most brutal secret police apparatus brutal secret police apparatus brutal secret police apparatus uh the support of the United States and uh the support of the United States and uh the support of the United States and to some extent the Soviet Union, all the to some extent the Soviet Union, all the to some extent the Soviet Union, all the world's great powers uh world's great powers uh world's great powers uh he had everything. He had the power for he had everything. He had the power for he had everything. He had the power for 38 years. I mean, 38 years. I mean, 38 years. I mean, for 38 years. for 38 years. for 38 years. And yet, it was all blown away, brushed And yet, it was all blown away, brushed And yet, it was all blown away, brushed away by a religious revolution led by an away by a religious revolution led by an away by a religious revolution led by an 80-year-old cleric. 80-year-old cleric. 80-year-old cleric. Um you know, Um you know, Um you know, how would you not draw the conclusion? how would you not draw the conclusion? how would you not draw the conclusion? He was devout, you know, He was devout, you know, He was devout, you know, uh Muslim.

uh Muslim. uh Muslim. How would you not draw the conclusion How would you not draw the conclusion How would you not draw the conclusion that God was on their side in some way? that God was on their side in some way? that God was on their side in some way? And that there's something to be said And that there's something to be said And that there's something to be said for religion uh as a motivating force for religion uh as a motivating force for religion uh as a motivating force for radicalism and revolution. for radicalism and revolution. for radicalism and revolution. Um for all of those reasons, the Iranian Um for all of those reasons, the Iranian Um for all of those reasons, the Iranian Revolution is such a watershed and such Revolution is such a watershed and such Revolution is such a watershed and such a loss and such a a blow to American a loss and such a a blow to American a loss and such a a blow to American foreign policy. So, let me go back. So, foreign policy. So, let me go back. So, foreign policy. So, let me go back. So, um um um I I one of the biggest, most I I one of the biggest, most I I one of the biggest, most interesting, revelatory parts of the interesting, revelatory parts of the interesting, revelatory parts of the book for me were what you just described book for me were what you just described book for me were what you just described because when we think about revolutions because when we think about revolutions because when we think about revolutions that are touting that are touting that are touting the plight of the poor or the people who the plight of the poor or the people who the plight of the poor or the people who have needs in society or the downtrodden have needs in society or the downtrodden have needs in society or the downtrodden or the ones who need education and all or the ones who need education and all or the ones who need education and all these kinds of things against, you know, these kinds of things against, you know, these kinds of things against, you know, the the corrupt powers that be in the the the corrupt powers that be in the the the corrupt powers that be in the 1970s especially, you think about that 1970s especially, you think about that 1970s especially, you think about that as a sort of a Marxist platform. Uh as a sort of a Marxist platform. Uh as a sort of a Marxist platform. Uh that's the area where they're usually that's the area where they're usually that's the area where they're usually able to make some some hay as we say able to make some some hay as we say able to make some some hay as we say here in the states. Um here in the states. Um here in the states. Um but this is a different thing because but this is a different thing because but this is a different thing because this is as you point out in the book, this is as you point out in the book, this is as you point out in the book, this is not a radical left-wing sort of this is not a radical left-wing sort of this is not a radical left-wing sort of revolution. This is a conservative revolution. This is a conservative revolution. This is a conservative religious one but that's pushing the religious one but that's pushing the religious one but that's pushing the same sort of thing, offering hope and same sort of thing, offering hope and same sort of thing, offering hope and help to the poor, to the downtrodden.

help to the poor, to the downtrodden. help to the poor, to the downtrodden. Can you I mean you you you've introduced Can you I mean you you you've introduced Can you I mean you you you've introduced it a little bit but can you talk a it a little bit but can you talk a it a little bit but can you talk a little about that because you can see little about that because you can see little about that because you can see how something like that in a region with how something like that in a region with how something like that in a region with so much poverty, especially outside the so much poverty, especially outside the so much poverty, especially outside the major cities, how something like this major cities, how something like this major cities, how something like this would not just be popular but that that would not just be popular but that that would not just be popular but that that could be a base of support that keeps it could be a base of support that keeps it could be a base of support that keeps it in power for a long time. It's an in power for a long time. It's an in power for a long time. It's an interesting movement. interesting movement. interesting movement. It is and it's a fascinating revolution. It is and it's a fascinating revolution. It is and it's a fascinating revolution. It's for me as a historian it's a It's for me as a historian it's a It's for me as a historian it's a fascinating revolution. fascinating revolution. fascinating revolution. Um Um Um you know you know you know you you're absolutely right. I mean in you you're absolutely right. I mean in you you're absolutely right. I mean in many ways the Islamic revolution of 1979 many ways the Islamic revolution of 1979 many ways the Islamic revolution of 1979 adopts a lot of the language of the left adopts a lot of the language of the left adopts a lot of the language of the left and of the Marxists. They talk about you and of the Marxists. They talk about you and of the Marxists. They talk about you know where know where know where you know, when the you know, Marxists you know, when the you know, Marxists you know, when the you know, Marxists talk about you know, the talk about you know, the talk about you know, the you know, the workers of the world you know, the workers of the world you know, the workers of the world uniting and so on. You know, it's a lot uniting and so on. You know, it's a lot uniting and so on. You know, it's a lot of that of that of that kind of language but they they they kind of language but they they they kind of language but they they they don't put it as much in the language of don't put it as much in the language of don't put it as much in the language of kind of workers and trade unions and kind of workers and trade unions and kind of workers and trade unions and labor and so on but labor and so on but labor and so on but they talk about the oppressed of the they talk about the oppressed of the they talk about the oppressed of the earth earth earth and to this day the Islamic Republic and to this day the Islamic Republic and to this day the Islamic Republic plays up a lot of that language. They plays up a lot of that language. They plays up a lot of that language. They have a foundation called the you know, have a foundation called the you know, have a foundation called the you know, the the the the the the Bonyad-e Mostazafan, you know, the Bonyad-e Mostazafan, you know, the Bonyad-e Mostazafan, you know, the foundation of the oppressed which was foundation of the oppressed which was foundation of the oppressed which was funded by seized assets and money taken funded by seized assets and money taken funded by seized assets and money taken from the Shah's regime. You know, they from the Shah's regime. You know, they from the Shah's regime. You know, they really play up that kind of stuff, that really play up that kind of stuff, that really play up that kind of stuff, that anti-imperialist, anti anti-imperialist, anti anti-imperialist, anti um um um um you know, sort of materialist uh um you know, sort of materialist uh um you know, sort of materialist uh rhetoric. What's striking is that about rhetoric. What's striking is that about rhetoric. What's striking is that about the revolution is that you know, again, the revolution is that you know, again, the revolution is that you know, again, you know, you're in 1979 the world is you know, you're in 1979 the world is you know, you're in 1979 the world is divided heavily between communism, the divided heavily between communism, the divided heavily between communism, the kind of the Soviet block and the

kind of the Soviet block and the kind of the Soviet block and the American block, the capitalist American block, the capitalist American block, the capitalist democratic block. democratic block. democratic block. Um Um Um and what really is extraordinary about and what really is extraordinary about and what really is extraordinary about the Iranian revolution is that it's the the Iranian revolution is that it's the the Iranian revolution is that it's the first movement, the first revolution first movement, the first revolution first movement, the first revolution that says, you know, both of these that says, you know, both of these that says, you know, both of these political you know, political you know, political you know, you have to say the third world as it you have to say the third world as it you have to say the third world as it was known was constantly being asked to was known was constantly being asked to was known was constantly being asked to choose between these two blocks, right? choose between these two blocks, right? choose between these two blocks, right? And of course there was a non-aligned And of course there was a non-aligned And of course there was a non-aligned movement and so on. Yeah, Nehru and all movement and so on. Yeah, Nehru and all movement and so on. Yeah, Nehru and all those people, right. those people, right. those people, right. Right. There was this feeling of you Right. There was this feeling of you Right. There was this feeling of you know, you're with us, you're with the know, you're with us, you're with the know, you're with us, you're with the Soviets or you're with you know Soviets or you're with you know Soviets or you're with you know and the Iran you know, the the Iranian and the Iran you know, the the Iranian and the Iran you know, the the Iranian revolutionaries said, you know, both of revolutionaries said, you know, both of revolutionaries said, you know, both of these political philosophies are these political philosophies are these political philosophies are fundamentally materialist. fundamentally materialist. fundamentally materialist. Um you know, whether you're a communist Um you know, whether you're a communist Um you know, whether you're a communist or capitalist or capitalist or capitalist you're you're you're you're making your arguments to the to you're making your arguments to the to you're making your arguments to the to the people based on what is going to the people based on what is going to the people based on what is going to improve their material welfare. improve their material welfare. improve their material welfare. Right? What's going to improve their Right? What's going to improve their Right? What's going to improve their um their bottom line. um their bottom line. um their bottom line. Um and no one's attending to people's Um and no one's attending to people's Um and no one's attending to people's spiritual spiritual spiritual welfare. That there is a different path. welfare. That there is a different path. welfare. That there is a different path. There is a sort of third way between you There is a sort of third way between you There is a sort of third way between you know, Marxism and capitalism. know, Marxism and capitalism. know, Marxism and capitalism. Um which is God. Um which is God. Um which is God. Um and Um and Um and um you know, you had a lot of um you know, you had a lot of um you know, you had a lot of revolutionary leaders who would talk revolutionary leaders who would talk revolutionary leaders who would talk about you know, you know, Muhammad and about you know, you know, Muhammad and about you know, you know, Muhammad and you know, the the first socialist and you know, the the first socialist and you know, the the first socialist and you know, the sort of this kind of you know, the sort of this kind of you know, the sort of this kind of idyllic 7th century world and you know, idyllic 7th century world and you know, idyllic 7th century world and you know, in in 7th century Arabia around the in in 7th century Arabia around the in in 7th century Arabia around the prophet and his family where everyone prophet and his family where everyone prophet and his family where everyone was equal and you know, there was you was equal and you know, there was you was equal and you know, there was you know, there was no know, there was no know, there was no poverty and wealth was shared and so on poverty and wealth was shared and so on poverty and wealth was shared and so on because of course Islam as as you know, because of course Islam as as you know, because of course Islam as as you know, many of your listeners will know is a many of your listeners will know is a many of your listeners will know is a religion that does emphasize a lot the religion that does emphasize a lot the religion that does emphasize a lot the alleviation of poverty and giving to the alleviation of poverty and giving to the alleviation of poverty and giving to the poor and all those kinds of things. So poor and all those kinds of things. So poor and all those kinds of things. So it was easy for people who were very it was easy for people who were very it was easy for people who were very leftist in the 1970s to find ways to

leftist in the 1970s to find ways to leftist in the 1970s to find ways to kind of fuse that kind of language with kind of fuse that kind of language with kind of fuse that kind of language with Islam Islam Islam um and say, hey, you know what? Both you um and say, hey, you know what? Both you um and say, hey, you know what? Both you know, communism and capitalism, these know, communism and capitalism, these know, communism and capitalism, these are these are foreign are these are foreign are these are foreign um imports. They they have no place um imports. They they have no place um imports. They they have no place here. Like you know, we have let's draw here. Like you know, we have let's draw here. Like you know, we have let's draw on some of our own traditions. Um you on some of our own traditions. Um you on some of our own traditions. Um you know, instead of letting the Russians know, instead of letting the Russians know, instead of letting the Russians and the Americans fight and squabble and the Americans fight and squabble and the Americans fight and squabble over us, why don't we tap into our own over us, why don't we tap into our own over us, why don't we tap into our own traditions. Um and that's a very traditions. Um and that's a very traditions. Um and that's a very intoxicating message, right? For intoxicating message, right? For intoxicating message, right? For you know, in a in a closed society where you know, in a in a closed society where you know, in a in a closed society where you know, people you know, people you know, people don't have a lot of avenues for don't have a lot of avenues for don't have a lot of avenues for political participation to be able to political participation to be able to political participation to be able to turn to turn to turn to both of their traditions. both of their traditions. both of their traditions. Um Um Um and and and yeah, I mean so that's so yeah, you had yeah, I mean so that's so yeah, you had yeah, I mean so that's so yeah, you had this revolution this revolution that was this revolution this revolution that was this revolution this revolution that was very radical in its way. very radical in its way. very radical in its way. Um Um Um you know, but it's difficult to know how you know, but it's difficult to know how you know, but it's difficult to know how to place it on the sort of left-right to place it on the sort of left-right to place it on the sort of left-right spectrum because it kind of rejected spectrum because it kind of rejected spectrum because it kind of rejected that whole spectrum, that whole spectrum, that whole spectrum, What if we compare it then to outcomes? What if we compare it then to outcomes? What if we compare it then to outcomes? So I think one could make a case that So I think one could make a case that So I think one could make a case that those other two for systems of those other two for systems of those other two for systems of government that you mentioned, whether government that you mentioned, whether government that you mentioned, whether we're talking about communism as we're talking about communism as we're talking about communism as practiced in reality as opposed to a practiced in reality as opposed to a practiced in reality as opposed to a classroom version or capitalism as classroom version or capitalism as classroom version or capitalism as practiced in reality as opposed to a practiced in reality as opposed to a practiced in reality as opposed to a classroom version, I would argue that classroom version, I would argue that classroom version, I would argue that neither one of those sides necessarily neither one of those sides necessarily neither one of those sides necessarily lived up to the marketing hype very lived up to the marketing hype very lived up to the marketing hype very well. How would you grade the Islamic well. How would you grade the Islamic well. How would you grade the Islamic Republic's revolution and how well they Republic's revolution and how well they Republic's revolution and how well they were able to to manage to to live up to were able to to manage to to live up to were able to to manage to to live up to the marketing?

the marketing? the marketing? No, I mean also like most revolutions No, I mean also like most revolutions No, I mean also like most revolutions about the thing. I mean, you know, there about the thing. I mean, you know, there about the thing. I mean, you know, there were there were some genuine changes and were there were some genuine changes and were there were some genuine changes and genuine achievements. I mean look, um genuine achievements. I mean look, um genuine achievements. I mean look, um when you look over the last 40 years when you look over the last 40 years when you look over the last 40 years you know, if you want to talk about what you know, if you want to talk about what you know, if you want to talk about what has the the Iranian revolution achieved, has the the Iranian revolution achieved, has the the Iranian revolution achieved, I mean it did I mean it did I mean it did genuinely achieve some genuinely achieve some genuinely achieve some Look, one of its biggest achievements Look, one of its biggest achievements Look, one of its biggest achievements was genuine foreign policy independence. was genuine foreign policy independence. was genuine foreign policy independence. Whatever criticisms people might have of Whatever criticisms people might have of Whatever criticisms people might have of the Islamic Republic today, no one will the Islamic Republic today, no one will the Islamic Republic today, no one will ever accuse it of being a lackey or a ever accuse it of being a lackey or a ever accuse it of being a lackey or a puppet of puppet of puppet of of anyone. Of the West, you know, the of anyone. Of the West, you know, the of anyone. Of the West, you know, the United States. United States. United States. Um Um Um you know, the Soviet Union or even the you know, the Soviet Union or even the you know, the Soviet Union or even the Russia too. I know sometimes there's a Russia too. I know sometimes there's a Russia too. I know sometimes there's a bit of a rhetoric about Russia these bit of a rhetoric about Russia these bit of a rhetoric about Russia these days but I mean you know days but I mean you know days but I mean you know Iran is not you know, Russia is not a Iran is not you know, Russia is not a Iran is not you know, Russia is not a propping up the Iranian Republic. I mean propping up the Iranian Republic. I mean propping up the Iranian Republic. I mean Russia is a fair-weather friend of the Russia is a fair-weather friend of the Russia is a fair-weather friend of the Islamic Republic. Islamic Republic. Islamic Republic. So it's achieved that. It did achieve So it's achieved that. It did achieve So it's achieved that. It did achieve some genuine income and wealth some genuine income and wealth some genuine income and wealth redistribution redistribution redistribution and and and you know, a lot of impoverished people you know, a lot of impoverished people you know, a lot of impoverished people were genuinely lifted out of poverty in were genuinely lifted out of poverty in were genuinely lifted out of poverty in the 1980s, 1990s and so on.

the 1980s, 1990s and so on. the 1980s, 1990s and so on. Now, on the other hand, Now, on the other hand, Now, on the other hand, of course the of course the of course the um you know, you can talk about the so um you know, you can talk about the so um you know, you can talk about the so the lack of social freedoms and the more the lack of social freedoms and the more the lack of social freedoms and the more repressive religious aspects of the repressive religious aspects of the repressive religious aspects of the Iranian revolution. Iranian revolution. Iranian revolution. Of course it never promised Of course it never promised Of course it never promised freedom. It never claimed to be a freedom. It never claimed to be a freedom. It never claimed to be a liberal revolution in that sense. It was liberal revolution in that sense. It was liberal revolution in that sense. It was never meant as a revolution about never meant as a revolution about never meant as a revolution about people's individual freedoms, you know. people's individual freedoms, you know. people's individual freedoms, you know. Khomeini was very clear about that. Khomeini was very clear about that. Khomeini was very clear about that. It was uh it was about um It was uh it was about um It was uh it was about um you know, freeing Iran from the yoke of you know, freeing Iran from the yoke of you know, freeing Iran from the yoke of this dictatorial leader um and who had this dictatorial leader um and who had this dictatorial leader um and who had you know, in the rhetoric of the you know, in the rhetoric of the you know, in the rhetoric of the revolution at the time sold the country revolution at the time sold the country revolution at the time sold the country you know, to foreigners. you know, to foreigners. you know, to foreigners. Okay, so then you go from I'm going to Okay, so then you go from I'm going to Okay, so then you go from I'm going to skip over because I think it's skip over because I think it's skip over because I think it's when we talk about the American hostages when we talk about the American hostages when we talk about the American hostages for example or Reagan taking over in the for example or Reagan taking over in the for example or Reagan taking over in the free To me this stuff is is not as free To me this stuff is is not as free To me this stuff is is not as important as something like the important as something like the important as something like the 1979-1980 1979-1980 1979-1980 Iraq War for example and something that Iraq War for example and something that Iraq War for example and something that Americans don't know anywhere near Americans don't know anywhere near Americans don't know anywhere near enough about. As a military history enough about. As a military history enough about. As a military history interested person interested person interested person growing up in that era, the Iran-Iraq growing up in that era, the Iran-Iraq growing up in that era, the Iran-Iraq War was the largest thing we'd seen in a War was the largest thing we'd seen in a War was the largest thing we'd seen in a long time. Can you talk about it a long time. Can you talk about it a long time. Can you talk about it a little bit?

little bit? little bit? Yeah, this was Yeah, this was Yeah, this was you know, again, you're right. We we you know, again, you're right. We we you know, again, you're right. We we forget about this now. We don't It's not forget about this now. We don't It's not forget about this now. We don't It's not a war that is very deep in the a war that is very deep in the a war that is very deep in the consciousness of America. No, poison gas consciousness of America. No, poison gas consciousness of America. No, poison gas was used, everything. was used, everything. was used, everything. absolutely. I mean this was but this was absolutely. I mean this was but this was absolutely. I mean this was but this was an an an generation-shaping, generation-shaping, generation-shaping, formative experience for Iranians of the formative experience for Iranians of the formative experience for Iranians of the 1980s. I mean 1980s. I mean 1980s. I mean Iran had never I mean Iran had not with Iran had never I mean Iran had not with Iran had never I mean Iran had not with the exception the exception the exception uh uh uh obviously Iran had got had been invaded obviously Iran had got had been invaded obviously Iran had got had been invaded and got sucked into the Second World War and got sucked into the Second World War and got sucked into the Second World War but with relatively few casualties. but with relatively few casualties. but with relatively few casualties. Um Um Um the First World War there'd been a lot the First World War there'd been a lot the First World War there'd been a lot of casualties but mostly from hunger and of casualties but mostly from hunger and of casualties but mostly from hunger and famine. famine. famine. Um but it you have to go back to the Um but it you have to go back to the Um but it you have to go back to the 1820s to find a war that Iran was deeply 1820s to find a war that Iran was deeply 1820s to find a war that Iran was deeply you know, you know, you know, involved with a lot of casualties and involved with a lot of casualties and involved with a lot of casualties and even then even then even then you know, Iran had simply never you know, Iran had simply never you know, Iran had simply never experienced something like this, you experienced something like this, you experienced something like this, you know, where you had hundreds of know, where you had hundreds of know, where you had hundreds of thousands of people dying in the thousands of people dying in the thousands of people dying in the streets, you know boys, soldiers, child streets, you know boys, soldiers, child streets, you know boys, soldiers, child soldiers being sent to the trenches, soldiers being sent to the trenches, soldiers being sent to the trenches, poison gas. It was a it was a First poison gas. It was a it was a First poison gas. It was a it was a First World War style war World War style war World War style war um that killed hundreds of thousands of um that killed hundreds of thousands of um that killed hundreds of thousands of people on both sides, both in Iraq and people on both sides, both in Iraq and people on both sides, both in Iraq and in Iran.

in Iran. in Iran. And it was the first time that chemical And it was the first time that chemical And it was the first time that chemical weapons have been used uh since the weapons have been used uh since the weapons have been used uh since the First World War and First World War and First World War and you know, and it was devastating. you know, and it was devastating. you know, and it was devastating. Uh and it is something that stays very Uh and it is something that stays very Uh and it is something that stays very much with Iranians to this day. You go much with Iranians to this day. You go much with Iranians to this day. You go to Iran to Iran to Iran and people are always in the US very and people are always in the US very and people are always in the US very fixated on Iran's relationship with the fixated on Iran's relationship with the fixated on Iran's relationship with the United States and its antagonism to the United States and its antagonism to the United States and its antagonism to the US. US. US. But it's But it's But it's it's war with Iraq in the 1980s it's war with Iraq in the 1980s it's war with Iraq in the 1980s shaped what Iran is today much more than shaped what Iran is today much more than shaped what Iran is today much more than its antagonism to the US. Uh and it and its antagonism to the US. Uh and it and its antagonism to the US. Uh and it and it continues to do that in many many it continues to do that in many many it continues to do that in many many ways and you see it when you go to Iran ways and you see it when you go to Iran ways and you see it when you go to Iran the the murals. Yeah, there are a few the the murals. Yeah, there are a few the the murals. Yeah, there are a few There are a number of anti-American There are a number of anti-American There are a number of anti-American murals, anti-Israeli murals and so on. murals, anti-Israeli murals and so on. murals, anti-Israeli murals and so on. But the vast majority of the murals that But the vast majority of the murals that But the vast majority of the murals that painted on the walls are um painted on the walls are um painted on the walls are um commemorating martyrs of the Iran-Iraq commemorating martyrs of the Iran-Iraq commemorating martyrs of the Iran-Iraq War. War. War. Um that's the you know, that's that's Um that's the you know, that's that's Um that's the you know, that's that's the the really powerful experience and I the the really powerful experience and I the the really powerful experience and I think it continues to motivate Iran's think it continues to motivate Iran's think it continues to motivate Iran's thinking to this day when it comes to thinking to this day when it comes to thinking to this day when it comes to issues like the nuclear program that I issues like the nuclear program that I issues like the nuclear program that I that I you know, write about at length that I you know, write about at length that I you know, write about at length in the book. in the book. in the book. Um Um Um you know, I argue that actually the the you know, I argue that actually the the you know, I argue that actually the the great you know, the degree to which Iran great you know, the degree to which Iran great you know, the degree to which Iran has sort of messed around with nuclear has sort of messed around with nuclear has sort of messed around with nuclear technology has largely been out of its technology has largely been out of its technology has largely been out of its fear of Saddam Hussein up until 2003.

fear of Saddam Hussein up until 2003. fear of Saddam Hussein up until 2003. Well, and I don't think you can Well, and I don't think you can Well, and I don't think you can understand as an American all of our understand as an American all of our understand as an American all of our involvement in the region in the 1990s involvement in the region in the 1990s involvement in the region in the 1990s with Saddam Hussein without with Saddam Hussein without with Saddam Hussein without understanding the 1980s and and I mean understanding the 1980s and and I mean understanding the 1980s and and I mean Saddam Hussein was exactly the kind of Saddam Hussein was exactly the kind of Saddam Hussein was exactly the kind of guy that normal US foreign policy would guy that normal US foreign policy would guy that normal US foreign policy would have been in opposition of in the 1980s, have been in opposition of in the 1980s, have been in opposition of in the 1980s, right? So we would have called it a right? So we would have called it a right? So we would have called it a Soviet client state and yet because of Soviet client state and yet because of Soviet client state and yet because of the the problems we had in the late the the problems we had in the late the the problems we had in the late '70s, early '80s with Iran, we'd rather '70s, early '80s with Iran, we'd rather '70s, early '80s with Iran, we'd rather back Saddam either openly or back Saddam either openly or back Saddam either openly or clandestinely rather than the Islamic clandestinely rather than the Islamic clandestinely rather than the Islamic Republic. It's a Republic. It's a Republic. It's a It's It's It's interesting how that It's It's It's interesting how that It's It's It's interesting how that turned out. So, let me ask them the next turned out. So, let me ask them the next turned out. So, let me ask them the next thing, which is we look at relatively thing, which is we look at relatively thing, which is we look at relatively recent times with Iran and words like recent times with Iran and words like recent times with Iran and words like terrorism come up, Israel comes up, the terrorism come up, Israel comes up, the terrorism come up, Israel comes up, the protests within Iran amongst a lot of protests within Iran amongst a lot of protests within Iran amongst a lot of times Iranian youth and how those can times Iranian youth and how those can times Iranian youth and how those can get crushed and So, so talk to me now a get crushed and So, so talk to me now a get crushed and So, so talk to me now a little bit about sort of let's say little bit about sort of let's say little bit about sort of let's say post-Iran-Iraq post-Iran-Iraq post-Iran-Iraq War War War aspects of Iran here. So, in other aspects of Iran here. So, in other aspects of Iran here. So, in other words, I I want to find out how Iran's words, I I want to find out how Iran's words, I I want to find out how Iran's doing for you in a second. But but since doing for you in a second. But but since doing for you in a second. But but since the focus has shifted away from the the focus has shifted away from the the focus has shifted away from the Islamic Revolution and Khomeini and Islamic Revolution and Khomeini and Islamic Revolution and Khomeini and hostages and all that, hostages and all that, hostages and all that, Iran I just wrote down terrorism, Iran I just wrote down terrorism, Iran I just wrote down terrorism, Israel. Cuz I mean, when you look at it Israel. Cuz I mean, when you look at it Israel. Cuz I mean, when you look at it now, now, now, the the the unrest in the street. I the the the unrest in the street. I the the the unrest in the street. I mean, who was it? It was the the female mean, who was it? It was the the female mean, who was it? It was the the female martyr martyr not that long ago who was martyr martyr not that long ago who was martyr martyr not that long ago who was shot. I mean, it would seem to be that shot. I mean, it would seem to be that shot. I mean, it would seem to be that once again now the Islamic Republic's in once again now the Islamic Republic's in once again now the Islamic Republic's in the position that the Shah was in in the the position that the Shah was in in the the position that the Shah was in in the late 1970s. But that may be a reaction late 1970s. But that may be a reaction late 1970s. But that may be a reaction to Western news coverage that doesn't

to Western news coverage that doesn't to Western news coverage that doesn't really reflect attitudes on the ground. really reflect attitudes on the ground. really reflect attitudes on the ground. So, maybe you could tell me a little bit So, maybe you could tell me a little bit So, maybe you could tell me a little bit about Israel, terrorism, internal unrest about Israel, terrorism, internal unrest about Israel, terrorism, internal unrest in in Iran. And maybe, you know, we we in in Iran. And maybe, you know, we we in in Iran. And maybe, you know, we we talked recently a lot about where talked recently a lot about where talked recently a lot about where in my other programs where where things in my other programs where where things in my other programs where where things are going in the 21st century as opposed are going in the 21st century as opposed are going in the 21st century as opposed to the 20th. Uh how could we apply that to the 20th. Uh how could we apply that to the 20th. Uh how could we apply that to Iran? How do you see the sort of the to Iran? How do you see the sort of the to Iran? How do you see the sort of the next couple of decades maybe? next couple of decades maybe? next couple of decades maybe? Yeah, I mean, those those are all good Yeah, I mean, those those are all good Yeah, I mean, those those are all good questions. questions. questions. That's a lot That's a lot of stuff. I That's a lot That's a lot of stuff. I That's a lot That's a lot of stuff. I apologize. apologize. apologize. Sure. No, no, no, no, no. It's fine. I Sure. No, no, no, no, no. It's fine. I Sure. No, no, no, no, no. It's fine. I mean, look I I I think of them as mean, look I I I think of them as mean, look I I I think of them as interrelated if that makes sense. Right. interrelated if that makes sense. Right. interrelated if that makes sense. Right. Well, absolutely. Like as a historian, Well, absolutely. Like as a historian, Well, absolutely. Like as a historian, I'm always I'm always I'm always a little uncomfortable with kind of a little uncomfortable with kind of a little uncomfortable with kind of prediction making predictions and prediction making predictions and prediction making predictions and thinking about the future. thinking about the future. thinking about the future. Uh cuz I tend to to think much more Uh cuz I tend to to think much more Uh cuz I tend to to think much more about the past. about the past. about the past. But I you know, I But I you know, I But I you know, I um I think if we look at Iran today, um um I think if we look at Iran today, um um I think if we look at Iran today, um there's no question the Islamic Republic there's no question the Islamic Republic there's no question the Islamic Republic is less popular than it has been at any is less popular than it has been at any is less popular than it has been at any point in its history. point in its history. point in its history. And there are many different reasons for And there are many different reasons for And there are many different reasons for that. I mean, of course, the large that. I mean, of course, the large that. I mean, of course, the large I mean, it's come under exceptional I mean, it's come under exceptional I mean, it's come under exceptional degrees of kind of American degrees of kind of American degrees of kind of American uh led uh pressure, maximum pressure uh led uh pressure, maximum pressure uh led uh pressure, maximum pressure campaigns, and sanctions. I mean, the campaigns, and sanctions. I mean, the campaigns, and sanctions. I mean, the kinds of sanctions that have never been kinds of sanctions that have never been kinds of sanctions that have never been placed on a on a country in peacetime. I placed on a on a country in peacetime. I placed on a on a country in peacetime. I mean, the the economy Iranian economy mean, the the economy Iranian economy mean, the the economy Iranian economy has been strangled.

has been strangled. has been strangled. Right. It's an axis of evil country, Right. It's an axis of evil country, Right. It's an axis of evil country, right? right? right? Right. Um but of course, that's not the Right. Um but of course, that's not the Right. Um but of course, that's not the only reason. I mean, only reason. I mean, only reason. I mean, you know, there are many reasons why you know, there are many reasons why you know, there are many reasons why people dislike the the the system and people dislike the the the system and people dislike the the the system and the government you know, on its own the government you know, on its own the government you know, on its own terms. And there are plenty of issues terms. And there are plenty of issues terms. And there are plenty of issues with corruption and mismanagement. Um with corruption and mismanagement. Um with corruption and mismanagement. Um you know, and and of course, you know, and and of course, you know, and and of course, repressiveness. repressiveness. repressiveness. Uh Uh Uh you know, so you know, so you know, so you know, you know, you know, it's it's it's a really tough time in Iran today. It's a really tough time in Iran today. It's a really tough time in Iran today. It's a tough time to be Iranian and to live a tough time to be Iranian and to live a tough time to be Iranian and to live in Iran. It's a economy is in desperate in Iran. It's a economy is in desperate in Iran. It's a economy is in desperate straits in many ways. Inflation is very straits in many ways. Inflation is very straits in many ways. Inflation is very bad. People are really struggling. bad. People are really struggling. bad. People are really struggling. Um Um Um you know, and you know, and you know, and yeah, but we have to be careful. There yeah, but we have to be careful. There yeah, but we have to be careful. There is a fantasy narrative in the US, which is a fantasy narrative in the US, which is a fantasy narrative in the US, which is that you know, that the Well, when is is that you know, that the Well, when is is that you know, that the Well, when is this going to all collapse? When is it this going to all collapse? When is it this going to all collapse? When is it When is it all going to come crumbling When is it all going to come crumbling When is it all going to come crumbling down, you know? down, you know? down, you know? And it's not. I mean, it's just the And it's not. I mean, it's just the And it's not. I mean, it's just the Islamic Republic is not a house of Islamic Republic is not a house of Islamic Republic is not a house of cards. I mean, is it wildly popular cards. I mean, is it wildly popular cards. I mean, is it wildly popular among the Iranian people? No, not among the Iranian people? No, not among the Iranian people? No, not necessarily. I mean, you know, necessarily. I mean, you know, necessarily. I mean, you know, the Iranian public the Iranian public the Iranian public like publics everywhere, you know, you like publics everywhere, you know, you like publics everywhere, you know, you you'll has a wide range of opinions on a you'll has a wide range of opinions on a you'll has a wide range of opinions on a lot of things, you know, and you go to lot of things, you know, and you go to lot of things, you know, and you go to Iran and you'll hear all kinds of Iran and you'll hear all kinds of Iran and you'll hear all kinds of different opinions. People are angry different opinions. People are angry different opinions. People are angry with the government for all kinds of with the government for all kinds of with the government for all kinds of different things.

different things. different things. You're not going to hear a huge appetite You're not going to hear a huge appetite You're not going to hear a huge appetite for revolution and regime change and for revolution and regime change and for revolution and regime change and certainly not kind of foreign-backed certainly not kind of foreign-backed certainly not kind of foreign-backed regime change. regime change. regime change. Iranians are smart enough to realize Iranians are smart enough to realize Iranians are smart enough to realize that, you know, that, you know, that, you know, um the US isn't pressuring the Iranian um the US isn't pressuring the Iranian um the US isn't pressuring the Iranian government or trying to bring about government or trying to bring about government or trying to bring about regime change because regime change because regime change because it you know, it's heart is bleeding you it you know, it's heart is bleeding you it you know, it's heart is bleeding you know, know, know, you know, you know, the American you know, you know, the American you know, you know, the American government's you know, kind of heart is government's you know, kind of heart is government's you know, kind of heart is bleeding for the Iranian people or you bleeding for the Iranian people or you bleeding for the Iranian people or you know, trying to improve you know, know, trying to improve you know, know, trying to improve you know, concerned about their human rights. They concerned about their human rights. They concerned about their human rights. They they know that. They know that they know that. They know that they know that. They know that you know, this is about geopolitics and you know, this is about geopolitics and you know, this is about geopolitics and and you know, um and you know, um and you know, um you know, the fact that Iran, you know, you know, the fact that Iran, you know, you know, the fact that Iran, you know, and American and American and American political interests are very much do not political interests are very much do not political interests are very much do not align. Um align. Um align. Um So, So, So, they are going to be skeptical of any they are going to be skeptical of any they are going to be skeptical of any kind of American back kind of American back kind of American back uh attempts to kind of you know, ferment uh attempts to kind of you know, ferment uh attempts to kind of you know, ferment regime change cuz they see how that's regime change cuz they see how that's regime change cuz they see how that's gone in Syria and Libya and a lot of gone in Syria and Libya and a lot of gone in Syria and Libya and a lot of places in the region. places in the region. places in the region. Um nor is there an obvious opposition Um nor is there an obvious opposition Um nor is there an obvious opposition uh leader that has any real kind of uh leader that has any real kind of uh leader that has any real kind of large-scale credibility. large-scale credibility. large-scale credibility. Um Um Um and then you know, as unpopular as it and then you know, as unpopular as it and then you know, as unpopular as it may be to say, you know, the Islamic may be to say, you know, the Islamic may be to say, you know, the Islamic Republic does have its supporters and Republic does have its supporters and Republic does have its supporters and they're not small in number. Uh you they're not small in number. Uh you they're not small in number. Uh you know, people who have grown up with this know, people who have grown up with this know, people who have grown up with this system of government and who have been system of government and who have been system of government and who have been rewarded well from it and who have jobs rewarded well from it and who have jobs rewarded well from it and who have jobs and careers and and careers and and careers and you know, uh you know, uh you know, uh people who have been lifted out of people who have been lifted out of people who have been lifted out of poverty. Now, as I say, all of that poverty. Now, as I say, all of that poverty. Now, as I say, all of that is true. It's also true that it's, you is true. It's also true that it's, you is true. It's also true that it's, you know, at its lowest point of its know, at its lowest point of its know, at its lowest point of its popularity by far, I think, of any point popularity by far, I think, of any point popularity by far, I think, of any point in the last 40 years.

in the last 40 years. in the last 40 years. Um but that doesn't mean that it's, you Um but that doesn't mean that it's, you Um but that doesn't mean that it's, you know, know, know, um um um any minute now it's all going to come any minute now it's all going to come any minute now it's all going to come crashing down. This is a crashing down. This is a crashing down. This is a fantasy that's constantly been peddled fantasy that's constantly been peddled fantasy that's constantly been peddled since the very beginning of the Iranian since the very beginning of the Iranian since the very beginning of the Iranian Revolution. You know, this Revolution. You know, this Revolution. You know, this idea that, you know, idea that, you know, idea that, you know, um the Islamic Republic won't last. um the Islamic Republic won't last. um the Islamic Republic won't last. Um but it has lasted Um but it has lasted Um but it has lasted and without a lot of friends or allies and without a lot of friends or allies and without a lot of friends or allies around the world around the world around the world and under a lot of pressure in the US. and under a lot of pressure in the US. and under a lot of pressure in the US. Um Um Um And And And um I just think that you know, people um I just think that you know, people um I just think that you know, people who are who are who are focused on bringing down the system, you focused on bringing down the system, you focused on bringing down the system, you know, you have to exist You have to know, you have to exist You have to know, you have to exist You have to accept the world as it is, not as you accept the world as it is, not as you accept the world as it is, not as you want it to be. want it to be. want it to be. You know, I'm I'm no fan of the Islamic You know, I'm I'm no fan of the Islamic You know, I'm I'm no fan of the Islamic Republic, but that you know, I'm not Republic, but that you know, I'm not Republic, but that you know, I'm not going to sit here and and you know, try going to sit here and and you know, try going to sit here and and you know, try to cheerlead regime change because that to cheerlead regime change because that to cheerlead regime change because that doesn't seem like a very realistic doesn't seem like a very realistic doesn't seem like a very realistic uh uh uh kind of scenario. kind of scenario. kind of scenario. You know, I'm curious about the You know, I'm curious about the You know, I'm curious about the intrusion of the outside world into some intrusion of the outside world into some intrusion of the outside world into some of these systems. I was talking to of these systems. I was talking to of these systems. I was talking to somebody the other day about whether or somebody the other day about whether or somebody the other day about whether or not the old Soviet Union could have not the old Soviet Union could have not the old Soviet Union could have existed in a world with the kind of existed in a world with the kind of existed in a world with the kind of communication we have now because I communication we have now because I communication we have now because I mean, they used to freak out over one mean, they used to freak out over one mean, they used to freak out over one radio signal from Radio Free Europe.

radio signal from Radio Free Europe. radio signal from Radio Free Europe. What would they do, you know, with What would they do, you know, with What would they do, you know, with Facebook or something like that? Um How Facebook or something like that? Um How Facebook or something like that? Um How is Iran adjusting because I know the is Iran adjusting because I know the is Iran adjusting because I know the Iranians Iranians Iranians tend to be on an individual level very tend to be on an individual level very tend to be on an individual level very tech-interested. How are they coping tech-interested. How are they coping tech-interested. How are they coping with the fact that, you know, the with the fact that, you know, the with the fact that, you know, the outside world I you had mentioned outside world I you had mentioned outside world I you had mentioned something in your book that stuck with something in your book that stuck with something in your book that stuck with me. You had been talking about You me. You had been talking about You me. You had been talking about You mentioned disco. So, it was like the mentioned disco. So, it was like the mentioned disco. So, it was like the 1970s and this was something that the 1970s and this was something that the 1970s and this was something that the Ayatollahs were not not thrilled about Ayatollahs were not not thrilled about Ayatollahs were not not thrilled about as one might imagine no conservative as one might imagine no conservative as one might imagine no conservative society would have been. And I'm society would have been. And I'm society would have been. And I'm thinking to myself forget myself forget thinking to myself forget myself forget thinking to myself forget myself forget about disco today. I mean, what what do about disco today. I mean, what what do about disco today. I mean, what what do the Iranian Ayatollahs think about the Iranian Ayatollahs think about the Iranian Ayatollahs think about pornography online that their people pornography online that their people pornography online that their people might be looking at? I mean, how how might be looking at? I mean, how how might be looking at? I mean, how how much does the the fact that the outside much does the the fact that the outside much does the the fact that the outside world can't really be kept out anymore world can't really be kept out anymore world can't really be kept out anymore impact a a revolution that's trying to impact a a revolution that's trying to impact a a revolution that's trying to maintain a certain, let's just say, maintain a certain, let's just say, maintain a certain, let's just say, moral moral moral moral moral moral standard for their people. standard for their people. standard for their people. It's a great question. It's a tough It's a great question. It's a tough It's a great question. It's a tough question. Uh you know, question. Uh you know, question. Uh you know, Are they developing one of their own Are Are they developing one of their own Are Are they developing one of their own Are they one of those countries that are they one of those countries that are they one of those countries that are developing sort of an internal, you developing sort of an internal, you developing sort of an internal, you know, internet of their own kind of I I know, internet of their own kind of I I know, internet of their own kind of I I vaguely remember something like that. Uh vaguely remember something like that. Uh vaguely remember something like that. Uh yeah, they would do that. You know, I yeah, they would do that. You know, I yeah, they would do that. You know, I you know, I think you know, I think you know, I think again, I'm not a tech expert.

again, I'm not a tech expert. again, I'm not a tech expert. Me either. I wonder Me either. I wonder Me either. I wonder Uh you know, I wonder how well that's Uh you know, I wonder how well that's Uh you know, I wonder how well that's ever going to work. But I you know, I ever going to work. But I you know, I ever going to work. But I you know, I look, the um morality side of things and look, the um morality side of things and look, the um morality side of things and morality police things like the Ministry morality police things like the Ministry morality police things like the Ministry of Islamic Education and Guidance and of Islamic Education and Guidance and of Islamic Education and Guidance and these kinds of Orwellian things sound these kinds of Orwellian things sound these kinds of Orwellian things sound very Orwellian to us. very Orwellian to us. very Orwellian to us. They exist. They're a reality. There are They exist. They're a reality. There are They exist. They're a reality. There are things you know, there are, you know, things you know, there are, you know, things you know, there are, you know, morality police that go around and morality police that go around and morality police that go around and Gasht-e Ershad as they call them and Gasht-e Ershad as they call them and Gasht-e Ershad as they call them and kind of check on people the way people kind of check on people the way people kind of check on people the way people are dressed and things like that. And are dressed and things like that. And are dressed and things like that. And you know, there are things you're not you know, there are things you're not you know, there are things you're not allowed to do in Iran. allowed to do in Iran. allowed to do in Iran. You can't just like be out there dancing You can't just like be out there dancing You can't just like be out there dancing in the streets and so on and in discos in the streets and so on and in discos in the streets and so on and in discos and alcohol and whatever. But the and alcohol and whatever. But the and alcohol and whatever. But the reality is that all of that stuff goes reality is that all of that stuff goes reality is that all of that stuff goes on very much behind closed doors in on very much behind closed doors in on very much behind closed doors in Iran. And the government is well aware Iran. And the government is well aware Iran. And the government is well aware of that and frankly doesn't really care of that and frankly doesn't really care of that and frankly doesn't really care that much. Um and now that's not to say that much. Um and now that's not to say that much. Um and now that's not to say that a lot of these, you know, religious that a lot of these, you know, religious that a lot of these, you know, religious clerics who run the show clerics who run the show clerics who run the show like it. like it. like it. Um but they're not motivated by that in Um but they're not motivated by that in Um but they're not motivated by that in the way that the revolutionaries were in the way that the revolutionaries were in the way that the revolutionaries were in the 1970s. What they're motivated by is the 1970s. What they're motivated by is the 1970s. What they're motivated by is realpolitik and staying in power and realpolitik and staying in power and realpolitik and staying in power and survival and um strengthening the survival and um strengthening the survival and um strengthening the system, you know, system, you know, system, you know, uh avoiding uh avoiding uh avoiding these kind of you know, kind of these these kind of you know, kind of these these kind of you know, kind of these foreign-backed regime change plots and foreign-backed regime change plots and foreign-backed regime change plots and so on and and you know, staying in power so on and and you know, staying in power so on and and you know, staying in power and and doing what they doing just and and doing what they doing just and and doing what they doing just enough enough enough to make sure people feel like they can to make sure people feel like they can to make sure people feel like they can live the life that they want to live and live the life that they want to live and live the life that they want to live and participate just a little bit in participate just a little bit in participate just a little bit in politics politics politics while also preserving while also preserving while also preserving you know, you know, you know, control and um control and um control and um and their own kind of survival as a and their own kind of survival as a and their own kind of survival as a system. Um the fact is that

system. Um the fact is that system. Um the fact is that you know, they know that people are out you know, they know that people are out you know, they know that people are out there having, you know, alcohol-fueled there having, you know, alcohol-fueled there having, you know, alcohol-fueled parties and dances in North Tehran and parties and dances in North Tehran and parties and dances in North Tehran and so on. so on. so on. Um Um Um you know, they're not going to barge you know, they're not going to barge you know, they're not going to barge into people's houses. You know, they into people's houses. You know, they into people's houses. You know, they feel like you know, as long as people feel like you know, as long as people feel like you know, as long as people feel like they can do that kind of feel like they can do that kind of feel like they can do that kind of stuff, they're you know, they're less stuff, they're you know, they're less stuff, they're you know, they're less likely to cause problems. likely to cause problems. likely to cause problems. They're not really worried about these, They're not really worried about these, They're not really worried about these, you know, these these kinds of very you know, these these kinds of very you know, these these kinds of very Westernized, you know, Westernized, you know, Westernized, you know, elites in North Tehran because, you elites in North Tehran because, you elites in North Tehran because, you know, know, know, what they're more worried about right what they're more worried about right what they're more worried about right now is the fact that these sanctions now is the fact that these sanctions now is the fact that these sanctions have made life very difficult for their have made life very difficult for their have made life very difficult for their traditional support base, which is the traditional support base, which is the traditional support base, which is the poor poor poor um um um both rural and urban poor who are really both rural and urban poor who are really both rural and urban poor who are really suffering a lot under these sanctions suffering a lot under these sanctions suffering a lot under these sanctions much more than the wealthy and the much more than the wealthy and the much more than the wealthy and the Westernized elites. Westernized elites. Westernized elites. That's more scary to them. You know, I can't help but think that we You know, I can't help but think that we would give our right arm now in the West would give our right arm now in the West would give our right arm now in the West to have a viable Mohammad Mosaddegh that to have a viable Mohammad Mosaddegh that to have a viable Mohammad Mosaddegh that we could support um as an alternative to we could support um as an alternative to we could support um as an alternative to the current leadership. Is something the current leadership. Is something the current leadership. Is something like that like that like that ever possible the way that the system's ever possible the way that the system's ever possible the way that the system's been constructed there in terms of been constructed there in terms of been constructed there in terms of outsiders or or non-religiously approved outsiders or or non-religiously approved outsiders or or non-religiously approved candidates getting a chance to candidates getting a chance to candidates getting a chance to participate? Is there a chance to have a participate? Is there a chance to have a participate? Is there a chance to have a Mohammad Mosaddegh, somebody who we Mohammad Mosaddegh, somebody who we Mohammad Mosaddegh, somebody who we would call you you would call it a a would call you you would call it a a would call you you would call it a a liberal democratic moderate reformer liberal democratic moderate reformer liberal democratic moderate reformer type or is that something that's been type or is that something that's been type or is that something that's been sort of sealed off by by the design of sort of sealed off by by the design of sort of sealed off by by the design of the system.

I don't think that's in the cards now. I I don't think that's in the cards now. I think that the closest we came to that think that the closest we came to that think that the closest we came to that was in between the period between 1997 was in between the period between 1997 was in between the period between 1997 and 2005 during the reformist presidency and 2005 during the reformist presidency and 2005 during the reformist presidency of Mohammad Khatami, who was seen many of Mohammad Khatami, who was seen many of Mohammad Khatami, who was seen many ways as ways as ways as playing liberal, reform-minded, playing liberal, reform-minded, playing liberal, reform-minded, um, constitutionalist kind of president um, constitutionalist kind of president um, constitutionalist kind of president who but who who operated within He was a who but who who operated within He was a who but who who operated within He was a cleric himself. He operated within cleric himself. He operated within cleric himself. He operated within the religious system. the religious system. the religious system. Um, and there was a lot of excitement Um, and there was a lot of excitement Um, and there was a lot of excitement about that and what that might hold. about that and what that might hold. about that and what that might hold. What kind of promise that might hold for What kind of promise that might hold for What kind of promise that might hold for the future of Iran. the future of Iran. the future of Iran. But it didn't work out both for internal But it didn't work out both for internal But it didn't work out both for internal and external reasons. Um, and external reasons. Um, and external reasons. Um, I think in recent you you know, but I think in recent you you know, but I think in recent you you know, but there have been more attempts. There there have been more attempts. There there have been more attempts. There have been, you know, the last president have been, you know, the last president have been, you know, the last president was more kind of centrist and, you know, was more kind of centrist and, you know, was more kind of centrist and, you know, reform-minded in some ways and there reform-minded in some ways and there reform-minded in some ways and there have been, you know, have been, you know, have been, you know, the movement wasn't snuffed out the movement wasn't snuffed out the movement wasn't snuffed out completely after 2005. completely after 2005. completely after 2005. But I have to say recently, But I have to say recently, But I have to say recently, um, since the withdrawal of the US from um, since the withdrawal of the US from um, since the withdrawal of the US from the JCPOA from the nuclear deal in 2018 the JCPOA from the nuclear deal in 2018 the JCPOA from the nuclear deal in 2018 and the maximum pressure campaign of the and the maximum pressure campaign of the and the maximum pressure campaign of the Trump administration, Trump administration, Trump administration, that has had a pretty powerful impact.

that has had a pretty powerful impact. that has had a pretty powerful impact. All right, it has really helped to All right, it has really helped to All right, it has really helped to entrench hardline elements in Iran in a entrench hardline elements in Iran in a entrench hardline elements in Iran in a way that we haven't seen in a very long way that we haven't seen in a very long way that we haven't seen in a very long time because time because time because that just made it very easy for hardline that just made it very easy for hardline that just made it very easy for hardline elements to say, "Do you see? You can't elements to say, "Do you see? You can't elements to say, "Do you see? You can't trust the United States and you can't trust the United States and you can't trust the United States and you can't trust these guys because it was a more trust these guys because it was a more trust these guys because it was a more centrist, reformist centrist, reformist centrist, reformist government that negotiated that deal. government that negotiated that deal. government that negotiated that deal. Um, Um, Um, and they were embarrassed humiliated by and they were embarrassed humiliated by and they were embarrassed humiliated by the withdrawal of the United States. Uh, the withdrawal of the United States. Uh, the withdrawal of the United States. Uh, you know, you know, you know, they brought sanctions relief and there they brought sanctions relief and there they brought sanctions relief and there was this feeling that there's a whole was this feeling that there's a whole was this feeling that there's a whole new era now and you know, things look new era now and you know, things look new era now and you know, things look different and you you see, you can't do different and you you see, you can't do different and you you see, you can't do a deal with the US. a deal with the US. a deal with the US. But it you know, it only lasted 3 years But it you know, it only lasted 3 years But it you know, it only lasted 3 years and when the Trump administration and when the Trump administration and when the Trump administration withdrew, it just it just handed a withdrew, it just it just handed a withdrew, it just it just handed a a huge political victory to conservative a huge political victory to conservative a huge political victory to conservative hardline elements. They said, "Look, hardline elements. They said, "Look, hardline elements. They said, "Look, forget about it. These guys These guys forget about it. These guys These guys forget about it. These guys These guys were duped. They were they were, you were duped. They were they were, you were duped. They were they were, you know, know, know, they were they were they were they were they were they were the fools of the West and of the United the fools of the West and of the United the fools of the West and of the United States." States." States." One of the disadvantages dealing with One of the disadvantages dealing with One of the disadvantages dealing with democratic systems is that one one democratic systems is that one one democratic systems is that one one president could have a different president could have a different president could have a different attitude from the previous one. So, let attitude from the previous one. So, let attitude from the previous one. So, let me ask you, did it was there anything me ask you, did it was there anything me ask you, did it was there anything that I didn't ask you about in this that I didn't ask you about in this that I didn't ask you about in this conversation, conversation, conversation, uh, that I should have or that we can uh, that I should have or that we can uh, that I should have or that we can or that or that's relevant here that we or that or that's relevant here that we or that or that's relevant here that we should be talking about?

should be talking about? should be talking about? Well, I mean, I could talk for hours, Well, I mean, I could talk for hours, Well, I mean, I could talk for hours, but I mean, I think you hit you hit on but I mean, I think you hit you hit on but I mean, I think you hit you hit on some great highlights and some great highlights and some great highlights and you know, those are some great you know, those are some great you know, those are some great questions. So, I really I really enjoyed questions. So, I really I really enjoyed questions. So, I really I really enjoyed the conversation. the conversation. the conversation. All right, I I've done what you're doing All right, I I've done what you're doing All right, I I've done what you're doing and I just you get so tired of the same and I just you get so tired of the same and I just you get so tired of the same questions. So, if I could have asked you questions. So, if I could have asked you questions. So, if I could have asked you a few different things, a few different things, a few different things, we'll call it a minor victory and we'll call it a minor victory and we'll call it a minor victory and hopefully we didn't bore you. Um, this hopefully we didn't bore you. Um, this hopefully we didn't bore you. Um, this was wonderful. Uh, the subject matter is was wonderful. Uh, the subject matter is was wonderful. Uh, the subject matter is fascinating, fascinating, fascinating, um, and I hope we sell you a few books. um, and I hope we sell you a few books. um, and I hope we sell you a few books. So, um, So, um, So, um, we will send you a link when the show is we will send you a link when the show is we will send you a link when the show is out and um, out and um, out and um, and anything I mean, listen, man, I'm if and anything I mean, listen, man, I'm if and anything I mean, listen, man, I'm if I can do any favors for you in the I can do any favors for you in the I can do any favors for you in the future, help you out in any way, please future, help you out in any way, please future, help you out in any way, please let me know. let me know. let me know. All right, I really appreciate that that All right, I really appreciate that that All right, I really appreciate that that you're you're helping me out quite a bit you're you're helping me out quite a bit you're you're helping me out quite a bit by helping to spread the word about the by helping to spread the word about the by helping to spread the word about the book. I really appreciate that. You book. I really appreciate that. You book. I really appreciate that. You know, um, know, um, know, um, uh, uh, uh, that that means a lot and I appreciate that that means a lot and I appreciate that that means a lot and I appreciate your questions cuz I mean, honestly, uh, your questions cuz I mean, honestly, uh, your questions cuz I mean, honestly, uh, it's obvious that you read it's obvious that you read it's obvious that you read the book and you know, you have some the book and you know, you have some the book and you know, you have some some great, you know, you kind of really some great, you know, you kind of really some great, you know, you kind of really engaged with it and you asked some great engaged with it and you asked some great engaged with it and you asked some great questions. So, I really appreciate it. questions. So, I really appreciate it. questions. So, I really appreciate it. I love the topic. Thank you so much for I love the topic. Thank you so much for I love the topic. Thank you so much for coming on and taking the time. I coming on and taking the time. I coming on and taking the time. I appreciate it. appreciate it. appreciate it. Thank you, Dan.

My thanks to John Ghazvinian for coming My thanks to John Ghazvinian for coming on the program. His new book, America on the program. His new book, America on the program. His new book, America and Iran, a history 1720 to the present and Iran, a history 1720 to the present and Iran, a history 1720 to the present is presently available. Pick up your is presently available. Pick up your is presently available. Pick up your copy and find out all the answers to all copy and find out all the answers to all copy and find out all the answers to all the questions that in a nearly hour and the questions that in a nearly hour and the questions that in a nearly hour and 20-minute interview I didn't manage to 20-minute interview I didn't manage to 20-minute interview I didn't manage to get to somehow. get to somehow. get to somehow. Anyway, he was a wonderful guy to talk Anyway, he was a wonderful guy to talk Anyway, he was a wonderful guy to talk to and the subject is fascinating. For to and the subject is fascinating. For to and the subject is fascinating. For those who wonder where the next hardcore those who wonder where the next hardcore those who wonder where the next hardcore history show is, the big one, we are history show is, the big one, we are history show is, the big one, we are working on it and like the famous, you working on it and like the famous, you working on it and like the famous, you know, multiple stages of grief, there is know, multiple stages of grief, there is know, multiple stages of grief, there is the multiple stages of hardcore history the multiple stages of hardcore history the multiple stages of hardcore history show production. We are currently at the show production. We are currently at the show production. We are currently at the stage where we have hours of it in the stage where we have hours of it in the stage where we have hours of it in the can and you look at it and go, "Now, can and you look at it and go, "Now, can and you look at it and go, "Now, what the heck do we have here? Is any of what the heck do we have here? Is any of what the heck do we have here? Is any of this any good?" And so, we'll, this any good?" And so, we'll, this any good?" And so, we'll, you know, get through the subsequent you know, get through the subsequent you know, get through the subsequent stages and get it to you as soon as stages and get it to you as soon as stages and get it to you as soon as possible. What I always tell people is possible. What I always tell people is possible. What I always tell people is all of the carrots and sticks in this all of the carrots and sticks in this all of the carrots and sticks in this business are lined up towards releasing business are lined up towards releasing business are lined up towards releasing more content. So, we have every more content. So, we have every more content. So, we have every incentive. incentive. incentive. You know, we just fail miserably. Thanks You know, we just fail miserably. Thanks You know, we just fail miserably. Thanks for your patience, everybody. Um, for your patience, everybody. Um, for your patience, everybody. Um, looking forward to talking with you more looking forward to talking with you more looking forward to talking with you more soon. Stay safe.

For hardcore t-shirts or other For hardcore t-shirts or other merchandise, go to dan carlin.com. If merchandise, go to dan carlin.com. If merchandise, go to dan carlin.com. If you think the show you just heard is you think the show you just heard is you think the show you just heard is worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love to have it. Uh, back a show. It's all we to have it. Uh, back a show. It's all we to have it. Uh, back a show. It's all we ask. Go to dan carlin.com for ask. Go to dan carlin.com for ask. Go to dan carlin.com for information on how to donate to the information on how to donate to the information on how to donate to the show. show. show. Hey everyone, back for one quick second Hey everyone, back for one quick second Hey everyone, back for one quick second to talk again about Battle Guide Virtual to talk again about Battle Guide Virtual to talk again about Battle Guide Virtual Tours. You may have heard me bring them Tours. You may have heard me bring them Tours. You may have heard me bring them up before. Um, I I hooked up with these up before. Um, I I hooked up with these up before. Um, I I hooked up with these guys during the first bit of COVID when guys during the first bit of COVID when guys during the first bit of COVID when they were doing live tours of places they were doing live tours of places they were doing live tours of places like battlefields in France and like battlefields in France and like battlefields in France and everything and all of a sudden we're everything and all of a sudden we're everything and all of a sudden we're shut down shut down shut down and this is the way they figured out how and this is the way they figured out how and this is the way they figured out how to pivot from that as so many other to pivot from that as so many other to pivot from that as so many other business owners have had to figure out business owners have had to figure out business owners have had to figure out what to do in the same circumstances and what to do in the same circumstances and what to do in the same circumstances and I love the way these guys did it. They I love the way these guys did it. They I love the way these guys did it. They converted the battlefield tours into converted the battlefield tours into converted the battlefield tours into virtual things and it allowed them to virtual things and it allowed them to virtual things and it allowed them to utilize a bunch of different elements utilize a bunch of different elements utilize a bunch of different elements that obviously wouldn't have been that obviously wouldn't have been that obviously wouldn't have been available in a live situation. And I'm available in a live situation. And I'm available in a live situation. And I'm not saying this is superior to a live not saying this is superior to a live not saying this is superior to a live situation. They both have their situation. They both have their situation. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. What I am strengths and weaknesses. What I am strengths and weaknesses. What I am saying is if you save up all the money saying is if you save up all the money saying is if you save up all the money as an American to go to northern France as an American to go to northern France as an American to go to northern France and and walk these battlefields, first and and walk these battlefields, first and and walk these battlefields, first of all, there will be things missing of all, there will be things missing of all, there will be things missing that you won't understand and you'll that you won't understand and you'll that you won't understand and you'll have to come home and read about later, have to come home and read about later, have to come home and read about later, which you get as part of these Battle which you get as part of these Battle which you get as part of these Battle Guide Virtual Tours when you do those, Guide Virtual Tours when you do those, Guide Virtual Tours when you do those, but how likely are you next week after but how likely are you next week after but how likely are you next week after you get home from what would be an you get home from what would be an you get home from what would be an expensive and long trip to France to do expensive and long trip to France to do expensive and long trip to France to do this to want to go to Russia and visit this to want to go to Russia and visit this to want to go to Russia and visit Stalingrad, right?

Stalingrad, right? Stalingrad, right? But you do that in a virtual sense, you But you do that in a virtual sense, you But you do that in a virtual sense, you can go on a different, can go on a different, can go on a different, you know, battlefield tour every day. you know, battlefield tour every day. you know, battlefield tour every day. There's different ways to access them, There's different ways to access them, There's different ways to access them, by the way. There's a live version, by the way. There's a live version, by the way. There's a live version, which you can be a part of it online which you can be a part of it online which you can be a part of it online when they're doing it live and the when they're doing it live and the when they're doing it live and the historian is there and you can ask historian is there and you can ask historian is there and you can ask questions and all kinds of things like questions and all kinds of things like questions and all kinds of things like that. that. that. So, that's a real-time thing, but then So, that's a real-time thing, but then So, that's a real-time thing, but then that goes, you know, into the archives that goes, you know, into the archives that goes, you know, into the archives and is available for you to download and is available for you to download and is available for you to download anytime, anywhere, right? As the as a anytime, anywhere, right? As the as a anytime, anywhere, right? As the as a sort of a hard copy version. sort of a hard copy version. sort of a hard copy version. And you can buy those individually or And you can buy those individually or And you can buy those individually or you can sign up for a subscription you can sign up for a subscription you can sign up for a subscription service and access all of them and they service and access all of them and they service and access all of them and they have new ones all the time. I just think have new ones all the time. I just think have new ones all the time. I just think if you're a military history fan, uh, if you're a military history fan, uh, if you're a military history fan, uh, this is a this is a gimme kind of kind this is a this is a gimme kind of kind this is a this is a gimme kind of kind of thing and especially for a gift for of thing and especially for a gift for of thing and especially for a gift for people that you may know who are also people that you may know who are also people that you may know who are also military history fans, uh, this is a fun military history fans, uh, this is a fun military history fans, uh, this is a fun thing and it's worth trying and if you'd thing and it's worth trying and if you'd thing and it's worth trying and if you'd like to just try it and get 50% off, you like to just try it and get 50% off, you like to just try it and get 50% off, you can go to battleguide.co.uk/dancarlin. and you'll get 50% off any one of the and you'll get 50% off any one of the currently up on the archive tours. See currently up on the archive tours. See currently up on the archive tours. See what it's all about. But we're talking what it's all about. But we're talking what it's all about. But we're talking about something that combines, you know, about something that combines, you know, about something that combines, you know, technology like drone images, 360 and technology like drone images, 360 and technology like drone images, 360 and satellite imagery, on-the-ground video, satellite imagery, on-the-ground video, satellite imagery, on-the-ground video, veteran accounts, period footage, veteran accounts, period footage, veteran accounts, period footage, photographs. It's an interesting mix of photographs. It's an interesting mix of photographs. It's an interesting mix of things that if you are interested in things that if you are interested in things that if you are interested in this kind of stuff, manages to this kind of stuff, manages to this kind of stuff, manages to illuminate the complexity of these illuminate the complexity of these illuminate the complexity of these battlefields in ways that is difficult battlefields in ways that is difficult battlefields in ways that is difficult to conceptualize

to conceptualize to conceptualize in any other situation. Those of you out in any other situation. Those of you out in any other situation. Those of you out there who've read books, who've looked there who've read books, who've looked there who've read books, who've looked at maps, who've seen movies, you try to at maps, who've seen movies, you try to at maps, who've seen movies, you try to get a mental image of things. This is get a mental image of things. This is get a mental image of things. This is one of the best ways I've ever one of the best ways I've ever one of the best ways I've ever discovered to do it. I hope you'll check discovered to do it. I hope you'll check discovered to do it. I hope you'll check it out. Go to it out. Go to it out. Go to battleguide.co.uk/dancarlin. Get 50% off and see what I'm talking Get 50% off and see what I'm talking about.