EP13 Gladwell and the Bomber Mafia

it's hardcore it's hardcore history well it is way past time isn't it for well it is way past time isn't it for just about just about just about any content from us um you know hardcore any content from us um you know hardcore any content from us um you know hardcore history addendum shows long overdue history addendum shows long overdue history addendum shows long overdue i've been working on tying up the loose i've been working on tying up the loose i've been working on tying up the loose ends that ends that ends that develop over a six-part multi-year long develop over a six-part multi-year long develop over a six-part multi-year long is that even right is that even right is that even right a series on the second world war so uh a series on the second world war so uh a series on the second world war so uh sorry patience required on that front sorry patience required on that front sorry patience required on that front but uh when we wrap that up but uh when we wrap that up but uh when we wrap that up um we'll be done with the second world um we'll be done with the second world um we'll be done with the second world war for a while i need a palette war for a while i need a palette war for a while i need a palette cleanser a medieval or an cleanser a medieval or an cleanser a medieval or an ancient palette cleanser for a while but ancient palette cleanser for a while but ancient palette cleanser for a while but at the risk of at the risk of at the risk of going down that same road that the going down that same road that the going down that same road that the history channel went down once when they history channel went down once when they history channel went down once when they started referring to it as the world war started referring to it as the world war started referring to it as the world war ii ii ii channel uh the topic of the you know channel uh the topic of the you know channel uh the topic of the you know long put off hardcore history addendum long put off hardcore history addendum long put off hardcore history addendum show here involves the second world war show here involves the second world war show here involves the second world war but i couldn't resist and you'll but i couldn't resist and you'll but i couldn't resist and you'll understand why when you hear who i'm understand why when you hear who i'm understand why when you hear who i'm talking with talking with talking with um it's it's one of the people that you um it's it's one of the people that you um it's it's one of the people that you can say i mean i know he's on a book can say i mean i know he's on a book can say i mean i know he's on a book tour right now but i just tour right now but i just tour right now but i just i feel like we're the right people to i feel like we're the right people to i feel like we're the right people to sort of interview him because sort of interview him because sort of interview him because well we're other history podcasters and well we're other history podcasters and well we're other history podcasters and um and this book is actually um and this book is actually um and this book is actually more an audiobook although i read the more an audiobook although i read the more an audiobook although i read the pdf version and i'm sure he's going to pdf version and i'm sure he's going to pdf version and i'm sure he's going to sell a ton of sell a ton of sell a ton of of copies of this in print but i think of copies of this in print but i think of copies of this in print but i think he wants it he wants it he wants it to be heard and there are sounds and to be heard and there are sounds and to be heard and there are sounds and like he says in the interview like he says in the interview like he says in the interview when you hear the principles in the when you hear the principles in the when you hear the principles in the story talked about you hear their voice story talked about you hear their voice story talked about you hear their voice all of a sudden um all of a sudden um all of a sudden um so that would be really cool i didn't so that would be really cool i didn't so that would be really cool i didn't realize i was going to get so grabbed by

realize i was going to get so grabbed by realize i was going to get so grabbed by the story when i read it but it's one of the story when i read it but it's one of the story when i read it but it's one of those things that those things that those things that it's right up our alley same sorts of it's right up our alley same sorts of it's right up our alley same sorts of cultural societal questions that come cultural societal questions that come cultural societal questions that come into play into play into play with shows we've done like logical with shows we've done like logical with shows we've done like logical insanity insanity insanity or the destroyer of worlds the guest i'm or the destroyer of worlds the guest i'm or the destroyer of worlds the guest i'm talking about is malcolm gladwell talking about is malcolm gladwell talking about is malcolm gladwell host of the revisionist history podcast host of the revisionist history podcast host of the revisionist history podcast which he's been doing which he's been doing which he's been doing to rave reviews and large audiences for to rave reviews and large audiences for to rave reviews and large audiences for years years years he's written multiple books been on the he's written multiple books been on the he's written multiple books been on the new york times bestseller multiple times new york times bestseller multiple times new york times bestseller multiple times as a public speaker he does a lot of as a public speaker he does a lot of as a public speaker he does a lot of stuff and stuff and stuff and you know in the last hardcore history you know in the last hardcore history you know in the last hardcore history addendum show we got out was in july so addendum show we got out was in july so addendum show we got out was in july so i mean there's a little bit of a i mean there's a little bit of a i mean there's a little bit of a contrast there contrast there contrast there um but regardless when you get a chance um but regardless when you get a chance um but regardless when you get a chance to talk to somebody to talk to somebody to talk to somebody um who is a big important person in your um who is a big important person in your um who is a big important person in your narrow little field narrow little field narrow little field um well too good to pass up um well too good to pass up um well too good to pass up and malcolm's coming on the show today and malcolm's coming on the show today and malcolm's coming on the show today to talk about the new book the bomber to talk about the new book the bomber to talk about the new book the bomber mafia mafia mafia a dream a temptation and the longest a dream a temptation and the longest a dream a temptation and the longest night of the second world war night of the second world war night of the second world war uh i read the whole thing i only was uh i read the whole thing i only was uh i read the whole thing i only was going to give it enough time to skim going to give it enough time to skim going to give it enough time to skim because because because you know working on the sixth part of a you know working on the sixth part of a you know working on the sixth part of a six-part series uh and it sucked me six-part series uh and it sucked me six-part series uh and it sucked me right in which i may have told him in right in which i may have told him in right in which i may have told him in the interview but it's the absolute the interview but it's the absolute the interview but it's the absolute truth truth truth and if the pdf can do that to me i can and if the pdf can do that to me i can and if the pdf can do that to me i can only imagine what only imagine what only imagine what um you know a man who makes a living um you know a man who makes a living um you know a man who makes a living telling stories in an telling stories in an telling stories in an audio venue anyway i mean it's got to be audio venue anyway i mean it's got to be audio venue anyway i mean it's got to be much better so much better so much better so uh check out the interview and by all uh check out the interview and by all uh check out the interview and by all means uh check out the bomber mafia means uh check out the bomber mafia means uh check out the bomber mafia if you like the second world war or just if you like the second world war or just if you like the second world war or just even that weird question about how uh even that weird question about how uh even that weird question about how uh relatively

relatively relatively cultural and genteel countries at least cultural and genteel countries at least cultural and genteel countries at least in terms of how they were in terms of how they were in terms of how they were willing to treat you know other advanced willing to treat you know other advanced willing to treat you know other advanced countries countries countries uh went from thinking something like uh went from thinking something like uh went from thinking something like bombing human beings in cities was bombing human beings in cities was bombing human beings in cities was abhorrent awful never to be attempted abhorrent awful never to be attempted abhorrent awful never to be attempted behavior behavior behavior into you know in like four or five years into you know in like four or five years into you know in like four or five years people who thought that this was the people who thought that this was the people who thought that this was the proper way to win a war proper way to win a war proper way to win a war it's fascinating and uh malcolm gladwell it's fascinating and uh malcolm gladwell it's fascinating and uh malcolm gladwell delves into it and uh we talked to him delves into it and uh we talked to him delves into it and uh we talked to him right now so let me first tell you that my so let me first tell you that my intention originally because like most intention originally because like most intention originally because like most history podcasters i have a huge reading history podcasters i have a huge reading history podcasters i have a huge reading list that i'm perpetually behind on and list that i'm perpetually behind on and list that i'm perpetually behind on and i was planning on just skimming this i was planning on just skimming this i was planning on just skimming this and then letting you tell me about it and then letting you tell me about it and then letting you tell me about it but i got sucked in but i got sucked in but i got sucked in by the quality of the writing and the by the quality of the writing and the by the quality of the writing and the fascinating aspect of the story which is fascinating aspect of the story which is fascinating aspect of the story which is something that we've been interested to something that we've been interested to something that we've been interested to hear in in forever i mean i've done hear in in forever i mean i've done hear in in forever i mean i've done hours and hours and hours after the uh hours and hours and hours after the uh hours and hours and hours after the uh on some of the basic on some of the basic on some of the basic trade-offs that you talk about where trade-offs that you talk about where trade-offs that you talk about where morality and warfare morality and warfare morality and warfare sort of uh come into contact with each sort of uh come into contact with each sort of uh come into contact with each other other other so i thought i'd ask you since the title so i thought i'd ask you since the title so i thought i'd ask you since the title of the book is the bomber mafia maybe we of the book is the bomber mafia maybe we of the book is the bomber mafia maybe we can start by can start by can start by by you explaining to to the listeners by you explaining to to the listeners by you explaining to to the listeners what the bomber mafia what the bomber mafia what the bomber mafia is and what it means the obama mafia is and what it means the obama mafia is and what it means the obama mafia were a group were a group were a group of uh pilots um of uh pilots um of uh pilots um airmen um who were airmen um who were airmen um who were at maxwell air force base in just at maxwell air force base in just at maxwell air force base in just outside of montgomery alabama in the outside of montgomery alabama in the outside of montgomery alabama in the 1930s 1930s 1930s and they were um they were

and they were um they were and they were um they were uh fat on the faculty of what was called uh fat on the faculty of what was called uh fat on the faculty of what was called the aircourt tactical school the aircourt tactical school the aircourt tactical school so this is basically the training ground so this is basically the training ground so this is basically the training ground for officers for officers for officers for uh in the air corps in the before for uh in the air corps in the before for uh in the air corps in the before the second world war the second world war the second world war and the bomber mafia were a group who and the bomber mafia were a group who and the bomber mafia were a group who became became became convinced they could reform modern war convinced they could reform modern war convinced they could reform modern war um through the use of bombers through um through the use of bombers through um through the use of bombers through the use specifically a precision bombing the use specifically a precision bombing the use specifically a precision bombing they felt that if you could drop a bomb they felt that if you could drop a bomb they felt that if you could drop a bomb exactly where you wanted to drop a bomb exactly where you wanted to drop a bomb exactly where you wanted to drop a bomb then all of a sudden every other element then all of a sudden every other element then all of a sudden every other element of of of uh traditional warfare became obsolete uh traditional warfare became obsolete uh traditional warfare became obsolete you wouldn't need armies you wouldn't need armies you wouldn't need armies you wouldn't need navies you wouldn't you wouldn't need navies you wouldn't you wouldn't need navies you wouldn't need anything except for bombers need anything except for bombers need anything except for bombers and they pursued this idea and they pursued this idea and they pursued this idea that first of all they sketched it out that first of all they sketched it out that first of all they sketched it out in the 1930s and pursued it in the 1930s and pursued it in the 1930s and pursued it well into the second world war and my well into the second world war and my well into the second world war and my book is a story of book is a story of book is a story of that ultimately failed that ultimately failed that ultimately failed uh pursuit of this particular dream uh pursuit of this particular dream uh pursuit of this particular dream about how to remake war about how to remake war about how to remake war now this was part of an intellectual now this was part of an intellectual now this was part of an intellectual tradition amongst tradition amongst tradition amongst airmen that that goes far before the airmen that that goes far before the airmen that that goes far before the second world war i mean you know second world war i mean you know second world war i mean you know duets command of the air uh happens duets command of the air uh happens duets command of the air uh happens almost almost at the same time the almost almost at the same time the almost almost at the same time the wright brothers are wright brothers are wright brothers are putting planes in the sky so this putting planes in the sky so this putting planes in the sky so this concept of using air power concept of using air power concept of using air power as not just a way to change warfare but as not just a way to change warfare but as not just a way to change warfare but maybe as a more maybe as a more maybe as a more humane development to warfare was

humane development to warfare was humane development to warfare was something that was pinging something that was pinging something that was pinging the one thing i didn't see in the book the one thing i didn't see in the book the one thing i didn't see in the book and i was curious about it was was and i was curious about it was was and i was curious about it was was was there any intellectual contact was there any intellectual contact was there any intellectual contact between the theorists between the theorists between the theorists in the bomber mafia and uh and other air in the bomber mafia and uh and other air in the bomber mafia and uh and other air theorists theorists theorists who weren't american really interesting who weren't american really interesting who weren't american really interesting question which i put to some of the question which i put to some of the question which i put to some of the historians of bayer university historians of bayer university historians of bayer university and the short answer is we don't really and the short answer is we don't really and the short answer is we don't really know know know um and the um and the um and the oh it doesn't seem like there was a lot oh it doesn't seem like there was a lot oh it doesn't seem like there was a lot it seemed like a very much because it seemed like a very much because it seemed like a very much because remember there's a slight difference remember there's a slight difference remember there's a slight difference in the um uh in the in the um uh in the in the um uh in the emphasis of what deway was talking about emphasis of what deway was talking about emphasis of what deway was talking about and what the and what the and what the bomber mafia were talking about the bomber mafia were talking about the bomber mafia were talking about the bomber mafia were really caught up in bomber mafia were really caught up in bomber mafia were really caught up in the notion of the notion of the notion of precision bombing so they they weren't precision bombing so they they weren't precision bombing so they they weren't simply believers in air power simply believers in air power simply believers in air power they thought that they were believers in they thought that they were believers in they thought that they were believers in a particular application of air power a particular application of air power a particular application of air power which is this idea that you could do which is this idea that you could do which is this idea that you could do pinpoint bombing pinpoint bombing pinpoint bombing so they were sort of they felt that they so they were sort of they felt that they so they were sort of they felt that they were departing quite were departing quite were departing quite dramatically from uh kind of dramatically from uh kind of dramatically from uh kind of conventional conventional conventional air powered doctrine at the time so they air powered doctrine at the time so they air powered doctrine at the time so they didn't you know what deway believed was didn't you know what deway believed was didn't you know what deway believed was he was part of the group that believed he was part of the group that believed he was part of the group that believed and you know i'm sure you know more and you know i'm sure you know more and you know i'm sure you know more about this than me about this than me about this than me that you know the bomber would always that you know the bomber would always that you know the bomber would always get through that that get through that that get through that that uh bombers could fly so high and so fast uh bombers could fly so high and so fast uh bombers could fly so high and so fast and we're so um and we're so um and we're so um imperturbable in the face of imperturbable in the face of imperturbable in the face of anti-aircraft fire and anti-aircraft fire and anti-aircraft fire and and um um you know planes

and um um you know planes and um um you know planes uh coming to attack them that they uh coming to attack them that they uh coming to attack them that they represented a kind of unstoppable force represented a kind of unstoppable force represented a kind of unstoppable force in warfare in warfare in warfare the bar mafia took that one step further the bar mafia took that one step further the bar mafia took that one step further and they said and they said and they said all of that is true and all of that is true and all of that is true and if we can put them on wherever we want if we can put them on wherever we want if we can put them on wherever we want then then then we really can rule the air because not we really can rule the air because not we really can rule the air because not only can we get through only can we get through only can we get through but we can we can we can um but we can we can we can um but we can we can we can um uh we can debilitate the enemy with just uh we can debilitate the enemy with just uh we can debilitate the enemy with just the the the barest minimum of planes and bombs barest minimum of planes and bombs barest minimum of planes and bombs that's the kind of crucial element of that's the kind of crucial element of that's the kind of crucial element of their thinking their thinking their thinking and i was looking at stuff from some of and i was looking at stuff from some of and i was looking at stuff from some of the um the um the um early 20th century arms limitation early 20th century arms limitation early 20th century arms limitation treaties and rules of war stuff hague treaties and rules of war stuff hague treaties and rules of war stuff hague convention those sorts of things convention those sorts of things convention those sorts of things and even back then the americans were and even back then the americans were and even back then the americans were making sure that there were loopholes making sure that there were loopholes making sure that there were loopholes carved into uh the rules and carved into uh the rules and carved into uh the rules and restrictions on these brand new weapon restrictions on these brand new weapon restrictions on these brand new weapon systems known as bombers and airplanes systems known as bombers and airplanes systems known as bombers and airplanes to allow for precision bombing so it to allow for precision bombing so it to allow for precision bombing so it seems like seems like seems like from the very roots of the american from the very roots of the american from the very roots of the american intellectual tradition intellectual tradition intellectual tradition that precision bombing uh question has that precision bombing uh question has that precision bombing uh question has been something that's been on their been something that's been on their been something that's been on their minds minds minds yeah so this is they're very much the yeah so this is they're very much the yeah so this is they're very much the vera mafia is vera mafia is vera mafia is very much in the spirit of amer american very much in the spirit of amer american very much in the spirit of amer american military thinking going back to the military thinking going back to the military thinking going back to the revolutionary war right revolutionary war right revolutionary war right there's always been this belief in there's always been this belief in there's always been this belief in american military doctrine american military doctrine american military doctrine that technology um uh that technology um uh that technology um uh offers a set of opportunities and offers a set of opportunities and offers a set of opportunities and advantages advantages advantages um uh over traditional in you know over um uh over traditional in you know over um uh over traditional in you know over the kind of status quo

the kind of status quo the kind of status quo um so they're in that they're very much um so they're in that they're very much um so they're in that they're very much um caught up in that notion that um um caught up in that notion that um um caught up in that notion that um the technology could be the savior of the technology could be the savior of the technology could be the savior of the military the military the military uh mission um that doesn't you know uh mission um that doesn't you know uh mission um that doesn't you know that's that's that's um it's an odd thing because you know um it's an odd thing because you know um it's an odd thing because you know they they they they're the most american of of they're the most american of of they're the most american of of um military strategists but they still um military strategists but they still um military strategists but they still at the end find themselves on the at the end find themselves on the at the end find themselves on the outside looking in uh outside looking in uh outside looking in uh to the american war effort i mean to the american war effort i mean to the american war effort i mean they're they start out as the most they're they start out as the most they're they start out as the most american of americans and then american of americans and then american of americans and then you know what happens by the end of the you know what happens by the end of the you know what happens by the end of the war is they're not they're no longer in war is they're not they're no longer in war is they're not they're no longer in charge of our war effort they're charge of our war effort they're charge of our war effort they're they're um not outcasts exactly but they're um not outcasts exactly but they're um not outcasts exactly but they're pushed to the side they're pushed to the side they're pushed to the side you know i wrote down a little uh you know i wrote down a little uh you know i wrote down a little uh synopsis of i was trying to figure out a synopsis of i was trying to figure out a synopsis of i was trying to figure out a good one paragraph way to describe good one paragraph way to describe good one paragraph way to describe what the book sort of explains and one what the book sort of explains and one what the book sort of explains and one of the versions i have here said it's of the versions i have here said it's of the versions i have here said it's the story the story the story of how the u.s got to the point where it of how the u.s got to the point where it of how the u.s got to the point where it was burning down was burning down was burning down all of japan's major cities when the all of japan's major cities when the all of japan's major cities when the original idea original idea original idea amongst u.s aviation theorists was amongst u.s aviation theorists was amongst u.s aviation theorists was specifically to avoid that outcome specifically to avoid that outcome specifically to avoid that outcome does that sound like a description of does that sound like a description of does that sound like a description of what you were explaining yeah what you were explaining yeah what you were explaining yeah exactly i mean they begin the war exactly i mean they begin the war exactly i mean they begin the war thinking that thinking that thinking that the british idea of area bombing the british idea of area bombing the british idea of area bombing was was monstrous you know that in the was was monstrous you know that in the was was monstrous you know that in the early days of the early days of the early days of the of the european air war you know the of the european air war you know the of the european air war you know the americans regarded what bomber harris americans regarded what bomber harris americans regarded what bomber harris was doing with the was doing with the was doing with the with the raf as a kind of act of moral with the raf as a kind of act of moral with the raf as a kind of act of moral barbarousness i mean they were appalled

barbarousness i mean they were appalled barbarousness i mean they were appalled by what the british intended to do over by what the british intended to do over by what the british intended to do over europe and they europe and they europe and they they always had this idea that they were they always had this idea that they were they always had this idea that they were engaged in a much more engaged in a much more engaged in a much more um morally upright um morally upright um morally upright uh mission that the british wanted to uh mission that the british wanted to uh mission that the british wanted to bomb everything excited the americans bomb everything excited the americans bomb everything excited the americans like no like no like no no no we'll go in by day we'll pick our no no we'll go in by day we'll pick our no no we'll go in by day we'll pick our targets and targets and targets and you know we'll avoid civilian casualties you know we'll avoid civilian casualties you know we'll avoid civilian casualties as much as possible as much as possible as much as possible um we'll leave the cities intact we'll um we'll leave the cities intact we'll um we'll leave the cities intact we'll just take out the bridges or we'll just just take out the bridges or we'll just just take out the bridges or we'll just take out the power plants or we'll just take out the power plants or we'll just take out the power plants or we'll just take out take out take out the most militarily significant targets the most militarily significant targets the most militarily significant targets and and and so they have this like they never they so they have this like they never they so they have this like they never they explicitly think they are trying to explicitly think they are trying to explicitly think they are trying to avoid this avoid this avoid this indiscriminate use of of of indiscriminate use of of of indiscriminate use of of of of uh a bombing of air power and yet of uh a bombing of air power and yet of uh a bombing of air power and yet by the end of the war they're the worst by the end of the war they're the worst by the end of the war they're the worst defenders i mean it's defenders i mean it's defenders i mean it's and by the way the nuclear bomb at the and by the way the nuclear bomb at the and by the way the nuclear bomb at the end of the war is the end of the war is the end of the war is the ultimate expression of the very idea ultimate expression of the very idea ultimate expression of the very idea they were trying to defeat i mean it's they were trying to defeat i mean it's they were trying to defeat i mean it's sort of sort of sort of the ironies here are just kind of the ironies here are just kind of the ironies here are just kind of overwhelming overwhelming overwhelming yeah i love that that's why that's why yeah i love that that's why that's why yeah i love that that's why that's why the subject originally when i saw the the subject originally when i saw the the subject originally when i saw the title of the book i thought this is title of the book i thought this is title of the book i thought this is going to be a book about going to be a book about going to be a book about heavy bombers and all that i'm not all heavy bombers and all that i'm not all heavy bombers and all that i'm not all that interested in heavy bombers and that interested in heavy bombers and that interested in heavy bombers and then when i got into it and realized no then when i got into it and realized no then when i got into it and realized no this is about the this is about the this is about the the moral overtones and how people can the moral overtones and how people can the moral overtones and how people can set out on one course and end up on set out on one course and end up on set out on one course and end up on another another another and that to me is in my wheelhouse so i and that to me is in my wheelhouse so i and that to me is in my wheelhouse so i found it fascinating what you wrote and found it fascinating what you wrote and found it fascinating what you wrote and so so so it started getting me thinking about it started getting me thinking about it started getting me thinking about things like the various um things like the various um things like the various um time period we're talking about here time period we're talking about here time period we're talking about here where so much of this stuff is where so much of this stuff is where so much of this stuff is theoretical so you mentioned british theoretical so you mentioned british theoretical so you mentioned british area bombing

area bombing area bombing i mean to give the british some credit i mean to give the british some credit i mean to give the british some credit nobody really knew nobody really knew nobody really knew how you used these vast fleets of how you used these vast fleets of how you used these vast fleets of airships and what they were capable of airships and what they were capable of airships and what they were capable of and and and i mean you spend quite a bit of time on i mean you spend quite a bit of time on i mean you spend quite a bit of time on the norton bomb site and how much of a the norton bomb site and how much of a the norton bomb site and how much of a difference that makes difference that makes difference that makes in allowing people to have a theory of in allowing people to have a theory of in allowing people to have a theory of precision bombing that maybe makes some precision bombing that maybe makes some precision bombing that maybe makes some sense right if you have this great sense right if you have this great sense right if you have this great uh uh targeting weapon then maybe you uh uh targeting weapon then maybe you uh uh targeting weapon then maybe you can actually hit what did you say a can actually hit what did you say a can actually hit what did you say a pickle barrel from 30 000 feet or pickle barrel from 30 000 feet or pickle barrel from 30 000 feet or whatever whatever whatever so talk to us a little bit about the so talk to us a little bit about the so talk to us a little bit about the norton bomb side and maybe norton bomb side and maybe norton bomb side and maybe the weapon system of the b-29 the weapon system of the b-29 the weapon system of the b-29 superfortress and how these things were superfortress and how these things were superfortress and how these things were were intended to work together to create were intended to work together to create were intended to work together to create a sort of an american a sort of an american a sort of an american uh a bombing approach if you will from uh a bombing approach if you will from uh a bombing approach if you will from the beginning the beginning the beginning when the barber mafia first conducting when the barber mafia first conducting when the barber mafia first conducting these kind of these kind of these kind of seminars and um brainstorming and seminars and um brainstorming and seminars and um brainstorming and at maxwell in the 1930s at maxwell in the 1930s at maxwell in the 1930s what they're thinking of is entirely what they're thinking of is entirely what they're thinking of is entirely hypothetical hypothetical hypothetical so the b-29 is still a kind of so the b-29 is still a kind of so the b-29 is still a kind of you know it's not even it hasn't even you know it's not even it hasn't even you know it's not even it hasn't even been imagined yet been imagined yet been imagined yet but they have this notion in their head but they have this notion in their head but they have this notion in their head of a bomber that could fly really fast of a bomber that could fly really fast of a bomber that could fly really fast and and and really high um and that could be you really high um and that could be you really high um and that could be you know well outside of the range of know well outside of the range of know well outside of the range of of um enemy anti-aircraft fire um and of um enemy anti-aircraft fire um and of um enemy anti-aircraft fire um and much faster than any much faster than any much faster than any um uh you know um um uh you know um um uh you know um enemy fighter jet any enemy fighter enemy fighter jet any enemy fighter enemy fighter jet any enemy fighter plane that might intercept it plane that might intercept it plane that might intercept it the second thing that they hypothesize the second thing that they hypothesize the second thing that they hypothesize is is is they they strongly believe there will be they they strongly believe there will be they they strongly believe there will be a way to drop to a way to drop to a way to drop to solve the physics problem of how you

solve the physics problem of how you solve the physics problem of how you drama drama drama drop a bomb accurately from 25 000 feet drop a bomb accurately from 25 000 feet drop a bomb accurately from 25 000 feet or 20 000 feet or 20 000 feet or 20 000 feet um they don't know how to do it yet but um they don't know how to do it yet but um they don't know how to do it yet but they have this kind of they have this kind of they have this kind of native confidence that by the time war native confidence that by the time war native confidence that by the time war actually breaks out actually breaks out actually breaks out we will solve that physics problem and we will solve that physics problem and we will solve that physics problem and sure enough sure enough sure enough um there is this top secret uh um there is this top secret uh um there is this top secret uh army project that's launched in the late army project that's launched in the late army project that's launched in the late 1930s with 1930s with 1930s with this legendary adventure called carl this legendary adventure called carl this legendary adventure called carl norton um norton um norton um to resolve that issue to figure out how to resolve that issue to figure out how to resolve that issue to figure out how to do it and you know the northern bomb to do it and you know the northern bomb to do it and you know the northern bomb site which is now site which is now site which is now kind of famous device from the second kind of famous device from the second kind of famous device from the second world war was this world war was this world war was this um uh was kind of um uh was kind of um uh was kind of comes online um right at the time that comes online um right at the time that comes online um right at the time that the bomber mafia is kind of the bomber mafia is kind of the bomber mafia is kind of fighting to make their dream real so fighting to make their dream real so fighting to make their dream real so they're given they're given they're given they're given two tools at the outbreak they're given two tools at the outbreak they're given two tools at the outbreak of the of the of the or actually not the outbreak but in the or actually not the outbreak but in the or actually not the outbreak but in the middle of the second world war um middle of the second world war um middle of the second world war um that can that allow them to think that that can that allow them to think that that can that allow them to think that their dream can be made real one is their dream can be made real one is their dream can be made real one is one is they finally get to be 29.

one is they finally get to be 29. one is they finally get to be 29. um which is you know such a uh um which is you know such a uh um which is you know such a uh an advancement over the previous an advancement over the previous an advancement over the previous generation generation generation um what really makes you think that you um what really makes you think that you um what really makes you think that you can hit anything from anywhere can hit anything from anywhere can hit anything from anywhere because the range is so extraordinary because the range is so extraordinary because the range is so extraordinary and the sophistication of it is a step and the sophistication of it is a step and the sophistication of it is a step beyond the beyond the beyond the b17 um the second thing is like b17 um the second thing is like b17 um the second thing is like they get the northern bomb site and they they get the northern bomb site and they they get the northern bomb site and they you know norden who is this brilliant you know norden who is this brilliant you know norden who is this brilliant inventor inventor inventor convinces the military brass that convinces the military brass that convinces the military brass that with the aid of this incredibly with the aid of this incredibly with the aid of this incredibly intricate intricate intricate analog computer that he has invented you analog computer that he has invented you analog computer that he has invented you really can really can really can hit whatever target you want to hit from hit whatever target you want to hit from hit whatever target you want to hit from 20 25 000 feet i mean he convinces them 20 25 000 feet i mean he convinces them 20 25 000 feet i mean he convinces them that is that is that is no longer simply a kind of dream but no longer simply a kind of dream but no longer simply a kind of dream but rather a reality rather a reality rather a reality and armed with those two things the and armed with those two things the and armed with those two things the plane that finally meets their plane that finally meets their plane that finally meets their specifications and the bomb site that specifications and the bomb site that specifications and the bomb site that allows them to allows them to allows them to make they think precision bombing a make they think precision bombing a make they think precision bombing a reality reality reality they think there's nothing stopping the they think there's nothing stopping the they think there's nothing stopping the american air force american air force american air force they think oh we can win now right like they think oh we can win now right like they think oh we can win now right like we can go we can go over germany and we can go we can go over germany and we can go we can go over germany and then we can go over japan and we can then we can go over japan and we can then we can go over japan and we can just just just you know we could pick off whatever you know we could pick off whatever you know we could pick off whatever militarily militarily militarily significant targets we want and there's significant targets we want and there's significant targets we want and there's nothing nothing nothing they're going to be powerless to to do they're going to be powerless to to do they're going to be powerless to to do anything about it anything about it anything about it so there's this kind of moment of so there's this kind of moment of so there's this kind of moment of extraordinary extraordinary extraordinary unguarded optimism um unguarded optimism um unguarded optimism um in you know 4041 in that in that in that in you know 4041 in that in that in that in you know 4041 in that in that in that window

window window early in the war when the air force early in the war when the air force early in the war when the air force thinks oh we've thinks oh we've thinks oh we've we've got the tools now to make this we've got the tools now to make this we've got the tools now to make this happen happen happen i'm trying to think about you know and i'm trying to think about you know and i'm trying to think about you know and this is these are the unanswerables like this is these are the unanswerables like this is these are the unanswerables like if you could go to if you could go to if you could go to the american public or the president of the american public or the president of the american public or the president of the united states or even maybe the the united states or even maybe the the united states or even maybe the heads of the military heads of the military heads of the military uh in the mid 1930s so a few years uh in the mid 1930s so a few years uh in the mid 1930s so a few years before the second world war breaks out before the second world war breaks out before the second world war breaks out and you could have told them uh we're and you could have told them uh we're and you could have told them uh we're going to use our air force going to use our air force going to use our air force to completely level the cities of our to completely level the cities of our to completely level the cities of our enemies enemies enemies i wonder how the reaction would have i wonder how the reaction would have i wonder how the reaction would have been different than if you'd had that been different than if you'd had that been different than if you'd had that same conversation same conversation same conversation at the end of the second world war in at the end of the second world war in at the end of the second world war in 1945 so the difference in 1945 so the difference in 1945 so the difference in in what the the combination of the in what the the combination of the in what the the combination of the evilness of the war evilness of the war evilness of the war and you know as everyone likes to point and you know as everyone likes to point and you know as everyone likes to point out to me the fact that the uh uh the out to me the fact that the uh uh the out to me the fact that the uh uh the axis powers were bombing people too axis powers were bombing people too axis powers were bombing people too um so so is there a way to compare and um so so is there a way to compare and um so so is there a way to compare and contrast contrast contrast the attitudes the pre-war attitudes of the attitudes the pre-war attitudes of the attitudes the pre-war attitudes of of of of of of of a people that if you had shown them a people that if you had shown them a people that if you had shown them photos of what was going to happen to photos of what was going to happen to photos of what was going to happen to germany and japan germany and japan germany and japan because of the bombing attacks um i because of the bombing attacks um i because of the bombing attacks um i guess what i'm trying to get to is guess what i'm trying to get to is guess what i'm trying to get to is is the change in the mentality do you is the change in the mentality do you is the change in the mentality do you think think think 1930s united states public opinion would 1930s united states public opinion would 1930s united states public opinion would have supported something like this have supported something like this have supported something like this i'm trying to get to the point where we i'm trying to get to the point where we i'm trying to get to the point where we go from a place where in go from a place where in go from a place where in even like if we look at the bomber mafia even like if we look at the bomber mafia even like if we look at the bomber mafia people they would have been appalled if people they would have been appalled if people they would have been appalled if you'd shown them you'd shown them you'd shown them what what their weapon systems were what what their weapon systems were what what their weapon systems were going to do and yet after the second going to do and yet after the second going to do and yet after the second world war we really didn't go back to world war we really didn't go back to world war we really didn't go back to okay this was a one-off okay this was a one-off okay this was a one-off an outlier we're going to go back to the

an outlier we're going to go back to the an outlier we're going to go back to the idea that you don't bomb cities anymore idea that you don't bomb cities anymore idea that you don't bomb cities anymore instead we started targeting um cities instead we started targeting um cities instead we started targeting um cities with nuclear weapons including with nuclear weapons including with nuclear weapons including multiple nuclear weapons on a lot of multiple nuclear weapons on a lot of multiple nuclear weapons on a lot of cities and moscow was supposed to be hit cities and moscow was supposed to be hit cities and moscow was supposed to be hit with like 69 of them at one point um with like 69 of them at one point um with like 69 of them at one point um i'm looking i'm in search of a question i'm looking i'm in search of a question i'm looking i'm in search of a question here no i know exactly what's right i here no i know exactly what's right i here no i know exactly what's right i guess the guess the guess the i yeah i'm trying to figure out how the i yeah i'm trying to figure out how the i yeah i'm trying to figure out how the attitude changes and then attitude changes and then attitude changes and then stays changed after we see the results i stays changed after we see the results i stays changed after we see the results i think there is this think there is this think there is this thing that happens over the course of thing that happens over the course of thing that happens over the course of the second world war which is this kind the second world war which is this kind the second world war which is this kind of coarsening of of coarsening of of coarsening of uh of of western attitudes and uh of of western attitudes and uh of of western attitudes and this kind of um uh deterioration this kind of um uh deterioration this kind of um uh deterioration in our uh our kind of moral position in our uh our kind of moral position in our uh our kind of moral position um i think there is no way at all that um i think there is no way at all that um i think there is no way at all that the american public the american public the american public would have been comfortable in the 1930s would have been comfortable in the 1930s would have been comfortable in the 1930s with what we did in 1945 they would have with what we did in 1945 they would have with what we did in 1945 they would have been appalled been appalled been appalled i mean remember that in in the 1930s i mean remember that in in the 1930s i mean remember that in in the 1930s where where where what do we were 20 years out from the what do we were 20 years out from the what do we were 20 years out from the end of the first world war end of the first world war end of the first world war which was the first world war was that which was the first world war was that which was the first world war was that the kind of the kind of the kind of the weight of that catastrophe the weight of that catastrophe the weight of that catastrophe was still heavy on the mind was still heavy on the mind was still heavy on the mind of everyone in the united states of everyone in the united states of everyone in the united states in england across europe i mean everyone in england across europe i mean everyone in england across europe i mean everyone knew someone who died in that war knew someone who died in that war knew someone who died in that war everyone everyone everyone was aware of the kind of insane was aware of the kind of insane was aware of the kind of insane futility of that war i mean the the

futility of that war i mean the the futility of that war i mean the the you know these battles that went nowhere you know these battles that went nowhere you know these battles that went nowhere the stupidity of the commanders the stupidity of the commanders the stupidity of the commanders there's just some sour taste in people's there's just some sour taste in people's there's just some sour taste in people's mouths i think about war mouths i think about war mouths i think about war and i don't think anyone wanted to and i don't think anyone wanted to and i don't think anyone wanted to repeat that and if you had said to repeat that and if you had said to repeat that and if you had said to someone in someone in someone in 35 you know we're going to do 35 you know we're going to do 35 you know we're going to do pretty much what we did in the first pretty much what we did in the first pretty much what we did in the first world war only instead of having people world war only instead of having people world war only instead of having people kill each other on the ground kill each other on the ground kill each other on the ground we're just going to burn them to death we're just going to burn them to death we're just going to burn them to death from the air from the air from the air people would have been appalled when people would have been appalled when people would have been appalled when they were not ready for that they were not ready for that they were not ready for that um they wanted to escape from that um they wanted to escape from that um they wanted to escape from that that's the whole point of the bomb that's the whole point of the bomb that's the whole point of the bomb the battle mafia were many of them were the battle mafia were many of them were the battle mafia were many of them were world war one death world war one death world war one death and that their experience in world war and that their experience in world war and that their experience in world war one scarred them one scarred them one scarred them i mean like many civilians they were i mean like many civilians they were i mean like many civilians they were running from that experience running from that experience running from that experience we're not as so duplicated i just think we're not as so duplicated i just think we're not as so duplicated i just think after after after four years as a second world war people four years as a second world war people four years as a second world war people just just just they were so exhausted and so kind of they were so exhausted and so kind of they were so exhausted and so kind of horrified and so horrified and so horrified and so um that they were ready to try anything um that they were ready to try anything um that they were ready to try anything at that point i do at that point i do at that point i do i i i agree there's something it is i i i agree there's something it is i i i agree there's something it is an about faith in the space of 10 years an about faith in the space of 10 years an about faith in the space of 10 years i mean which is kind of remarkable to i mean which is kind of remarkable to i mean which is kind of remarkable to see see see but um well what the bara mafi was but um well what the bara mafi was but um well what the bara mafi was proposing in the 30s was consistent with proposing in the 30s was consistent with proposing in the 30s was consistent with i think what a lot of americans i think what a lot of americans i think what a lot of americans um would have wanted um would have wanted um would have wanted it was an american bombing policy yes so it was an american bombing policy yes so it was an american bombing policy yes so so that brings us to sort of a crux so that brings us to sort of a crux so that brings us to sort of a crux figure here though that might explain figure here though that might explain figure here though that might explain some of this let's talk a little bit

some of this let's talk a little bit some of this let's talk a little bit about general curtis lemay one of the about general curtis lemay one of the about general curtis lemay one of the more interesting more interesting more interesting american military figures ever and you american military figures ever and you american military figures ever and you talk about him quite a bit talk about him quite a bit talk about him quite a bit in your book um let's talk about curtis in your book um let's talk about curtis in your book um let's talk about curtis lemay for a second for people who may lemay for a second for people who may lemay for a second for people who may have no idea who this guy was what can have no idea who this guy was what can have no idea who this guy was what can you tell me if you wanted to give me you tell me if you wanted to give me you tell me if you wanted to give me sort of the boilerplate sort of the boilerplate sort of the boilerplate introduction to air force general curtis introduction to air force general curtis introduction to air force general curtis lemay uh born into uh born into [Music] [Music] [Music] poverty in columbus ohio poverty in columbus ohio poverty in columbus ohio [Music] [Music] [Music] one of the greatest without question one one of the greatest without question one one of the greatest without question one of the greatest aviators of the greatest aviators of the greatest aviators of his generation um he there's almost nothing he couldn't do he there's almost nothing he couldn't do with an airplane and everyone who was with an airplane and everyone who was with an airplane and everyone who was around him realized this around him realized this around him realized this he could there's a story about once uh he could there's a story about once uh he could there's a story about once uh after the schweinster after the schweinster after the schweinster the first schweinfur bombing raid um his the first schweinfur bombing raid um his the first schweinfur bombing raid um his group group group uh instead of flying back to england uh instead of flying back to england uh instead of flying back to england flew on and landed in north africa flew on and landed in north africa flew on and landed in north africa and they were badly damaged and they're and they were badly damaged and they're and they were badly damaged and they're all they're all basically on the desert all they're all basically on the desert all they're all basically on the desert in in in morocco or something and morocco or something and morocco or something and lemay like gets out of his plane and lemay like gets out of his plane and lemay like gets out of his plane and starts starts starts fixing the b-29 so he could fly them fixing the b-29 so he could fly them fixing the b-29 so he could fly them he was hands down in the 30s considered he was hands down in the 30s considered he was hands down in the 30s considered to be the greatest navigator in the air to be the greatest navigator in the air to be the greatest navigator in the air corps corps corps he could fix them and then he also many he could fix them and then he also many he could fix them and then he also many of the most important of the most important of the most important um tactical innovations of um tactical innovations of um tactical innovations of uh of of uh a bombing uh of of uh a bombing uh of of uh a bombing in the in the second world war were in the in the second world war were in the in the second world war were invented by curtis lemay i mean invented by curtis lemay i mean invented by curtis lemay i mean he everything if you were interested in

he everything if you were interested in he everything if you were interested in how to effectively bomb the enemy in how to effectively bomb the enemy in how to effectively bomb the enemy in world war ii world war ii world war ii the the genius without question of that the the genius without question of that the the genius without question of that era was era was era was curtis delay so he's this kind of curtis delay so he's this kind of curtis delay so he's this kind of indomitable indomitable indomitable blunt-spoken um unemotional blunt-spoken um unemotional blunt-spoken um unemotional uh unsentimental uh unsentimental uh unsentimental um hard bitten you know always um hard bitten you know always um hard bitten you know always always a cigar or a pipe in his mouth um always a cigar or a pipe in his mouth um always a cigar or a pipe in his mouth um man of incredibly few words there's all man of incredibly few words there's all man of incredibly few words there's all these hilarious stories about these hilarious stories about these hilarious stories about you know he'd sit through a three-hour you know he'd sit through a three-hour you know he'd sit through a three-hour briefing and later on when he's uh when he is um later on when he's uh when he is um uh chief of staff of the air force he's uh chief of staff of the air force he's uh chief of staff of the air force he's briefed on the bay of pigs briefed on the bay of pigs briefed on the bay of pigs and you know it's like two hour long and you know it's like two hour long and you know it's like two hour long presentation presentation presentation and then he just sort of stands up and and then he just sort of stands up and and then he just sort of stands up and he just said it won't work he just said it won't work he just said it won't work and leave that's it i mean like three and leave that's it i mean like three and leave that's it i mean like three words um words um words um so he's like this he's a kind of really so he's like this he's a kind of really so he's like this he's a kind of really absolutely ruthless absolutely ruthless absolutely ruthless but even those who found him but even those who found him but even those who found him um overwhelming or hard to take um overwhelming or hard to take um overwhelming or hard to take realized that he was a genius um realized that he was a genius um realized that he was a genius um [Music] [Music] [Music] if he were to compile a list of the you if he were to compile a list of the you if he were to compile a list of the you would you would know this much better would you would know this much better would you would know this much better than me than me than me you know the top five combat commanders you know the top five combat commanders you know the top five combat commanders in any in any in any domain in the second world war he's on domain in the second world war he's on domain in the second world war he's on the list right there's no the list right there's no the list right there's no question about that um you know fill out question about that um you know fill out question about that um you know fill out whatever other ford names you want

whatever other ford names you want whatever other ford names you want um so but he is not a member of the um so but he is not a member of the um so but he is not a member of the obama mafia he's the opposite obama mafia he's the opposite obama mafia he's the opposite he he thinks that they're dreamers he he thinks that they're dreamers he he thinks that they're dreamers and that they are out of touch with the and that they are out of touch with the and that they are out of touch with the realities of war realities of war realities of war and they're you know they're having some and they're you know they're having some and they're you know they're having some kind of grad school debate kind of grad school debate kind of grad school debate about morality when what they should be about morality when what they should be about morality when what they should be doing is trying to defeat the enemy doing is trying to defeat the enemy doing is trying to defeat the enemy um so he he um so he he um so he he he's sort of sitting in the wings and he's sort of sitting in the wings and he's sort of sitting in the wings and the reason that the united states takes the reason that the united states takes the reason that the united states takes this kind of u-turn in time in terms of this kind of u-turn in time in terms of this kind of u-turn in time in terms of of uh of air power policy of uh of air power policy of uh of air power policy near the end of the war is that curtis near the end of the war is that curtis near the end of the war is that curtis lemay takes them on that u-turn lemay takes them on that u-turn lemay takes them on that u-turn he just has no patience for this kind of he just has no patience for this kind of he just has no patience for this kind of what he believes is to be this what he believes is to be this what he believes is to be this over-intellectualized rarified theory over-intellectualized rarified theory over-intellectualized rarified theory that with a few carefully chosen and that with a few carefully chosen and that with a few carefully chosen and carefully placed bombs you can defeat carefully placed bombs you can defeat carefully placed bombs you can defeat the enemy he's like nonsense the enemy he's like nonsense the enemy he's like nonsense the way you defeat the enemy is by the way you defeat the enemy is by the way you defeat the enemy is by destroying the enemy everybody's got a famous curtis lemay everybody's got a famous curtis lemay anecdote that they like anecdote that they like anecdote that they like uh whether they're true or not because uh whether they're true or not because uh whether they're true or not because the bombing back to the stone age one as the bombing back to the stone age one as the bombing back to the stone age one as you pointed out in in the work you pointed out in in the work you pointed out in in the work and as we did in the podcast was was and as we did in the podcast was was and as we did in the podcast was was never said by him but he kind of maybe never said by him but he kind of maybe never said by him but he kind of maybe thought he liked it and was okay with it thought he liked it and was okay with it thought he liked it and was okay with it being uh uh uh attributed to him being uh uh uh attributed to him being uh uh uh attributed to him i had one and again no no one knows if i had one and again no no one knows if i had one and again no no one knows if any of this is true but supposedly any of this is true but supposedly any of this is true but supposedly if he didn't like what you were saying if he didn't like what you were saying if he didn't like what you were saying and you could be the president of the and you could be the president of the and you could be the president of the united states united states united states he had a tendency to go into the nearby he had a tendency to go into the nearby he had a tendency to go into the nearby bathroom leave the door open start doing bathroom leave the door open start doing bathroom leave the door open start doing his business

his business his business while you were still explaining things while you were still explaining things while you were still explaining things to you uh he's a fascinating very to you uh he's a fascinating very to you uh he's a fascinating very colorful character and yet colorful character and yet colorful character and yet you know he's he's an interesting you know he's he's an interesting you know he's he's an interesting dichotomy because on one hand he's dichotomy because on one hand he's dichotomy because on one hand he's portrayed portrayed portrayed as this savage kind of person that would as this savage kind of person that would as this savage kind of person that would that would target that would target that would target uh enemy cities and enemy populations uh enemy cities and enemy populations uh enemy cities and enemy populations during the cold war during the cold war during the cold war without even blinking and yet when you without even blinking and yet when you without even blinking and yet when you read a lot of the stuff about him read a lot of the stuff about him read a lot of the stuff about him including his own words including his own words including his own words he comes off like his own like his own he comes off like his own like his own he comes off like his own like his own version of version of version of a duet or a bomber mafia where he's a duet or a bomber mafia where he's a duet or a bomber mafia where he's suggesting that that half measures in suggesting that that half measures in suggesting that that half measures in war end up prolonging the conflict and war end up prolonging the conflict and war end up prolonging the conflict and prolonging the conflict ends up prolonging the conflict ends up prolonging the conflict ends up increasing the death toll increasing the death toll increasing the death toll so in effect being horrific uh uh early so in effect being horrific uh uh early so in effect being horrific uh uh early on and on and on and and and intensely might end up being in and and intensely might end up being in and and intensely might end up being in the long run the long run the long run the less deadly um less uh bloody the less deadly um less uh bloody the less deadly um less uh bloody alternative i mean does he strike you as alternative i mean does he strike you as alternative i mean does he strike you as an interesting character that way oh an interesting character that way oh an interesting character that way oh absolutely i mean absolutely i mean absolutely i mean i mean one of the things i was very i mean one of the things i was very i mean one of the things i was very careful to do in the book was careful to do in the book was careful to do in the book was i didn't want to take sides i didn't i didn't want to take sides i didn't i didn't want to take sides i didn't want to make want to make want to make the maya to be either the hero or the the maya to be either the hero or the the maya to be either the hero or the villain and i didn't want to make the villain and i didn't want to make the villain and i didn't want to make the bomber mafia out to be these kinds of bomber mafia out to be these kinds of bomber mafia out to be these kinds of you know um heroic romanticized overly you know um heroic romanticized overly you know um heroic romanticized overly romanticized figures either romanticized figures either romanticized figures either i thought that two sides were engaged in i thought that two sides were engaged in i thought that two sides were engaged in a a a the most impossible of arguments right the most impossible of arguments right the most impossible of arguments right and and and to your point the renee's position was to your point the renee's position was to your point the renee's position was that the way the most moral way to fight that the way the most moral way to fight that the way the most moral way to fight a war a war a war is to fight it as savagely as possible is to fight it as savagely as possible is to fight it as savagely as possible because that means it'll be over quicker

because that means it'll be over quicker because that means it'll be over quicker and when and when and when when a war is over quickly it does a lot when a war is over quickly it does a lot when a war is over quickly it does a lot less damage than when awards prolonged less damage than when awards prolonged less damage than when awards prolonged he thought it was all about jiren that he thought it was all about jiren that he thought it was all about jiren that morality was duration morality was duration morality was duration that's what he thought now is that true that's what he thought now is that true that's what he thought now is that true i don't know i don't know i don't know we can't do the counter factual i will we can't do the counter factual i will we can't do the counter factual i will say that there is something about what say that there is something about what say that there is something about what lemay did in the summer of 1945 lemay did in the summer of 1945 lemay did in the summer of 1945 when having burnt tokyo to the ground when having burnt tokyo to the ground when having burnt tokyo to the ground in the deadliest night of the war in in the deadliest night of the war in in the deadliest night of the war in repudiation of the ideas of the baha'i repudiation of the ideas of the baha'i repudiation of the ideas of the baha'i mafia mafia mafia he then proceeds to napalm basically he then proceeds to napalm basically he then proceeds to napalm basically every other city in every other city in every other city in every other big city in tokyo over the every other big city in tokyo over the every other big city in tokyo over the course of the next three four months course of the next three four months course of the next three four months and there's a point in that kind of you and there's a point in that kind of you and there's a point in that kind of you know it's the sherman's march of the know it's the sherman's march of the know it's the sherman's march of the air there's a point in that air there's a point in that air there's a point in that campaign where i think he's he's kind of off his rocker i mean i he's kind of off his rocker i mean i think think think i don't think he was he would tell you i don't think he was he would tell you i don't think he was he would tell you he's shortening the end of the war but he's shortening the end of the war but he's shortening the end of the war but i don't think that if the japanese i don't think that if the japanese i don't think that if the japanese weren't going to surrender weren't going to surrender weren't going to surrender after having their 10 biggest cities after having their 10 biggest cities after having their 10 biggest cities burned to the ground they're not going burned to the ground they're not going burned to the ground they're not going to surrender after having their to surrender after having their to surrender after having their 50 biggest cities burnt to the ground 50 biggest cities burnt to the ground 50 biggest cities burnt to the ground yeah yeah yeah i think he was you know there's i think he was you know there's i think he was you know there's i think he sort of i think he created i think he sort of i think he created i think he sort of i think he created this kind of argument this kind of argument this kind of argument at the end of the day i don't really buy at the end of the day i don't really buy at the end of the day i don't really buy it when it comes to um it when it comes to um it when it comes to um the fire bombing of japan in the summer the fire bombing of japan in the summer the fire bombing of japan in the summer of 45.

of 45. of 45. so you bring up the firebombing and this so you bring up the firebombing and this so you bring up the firebombing and this is important to talk about so when i is important to talk about so when i is important to talk about so when i have discussions with people have discussions with people have discussions with people about atomic bomb dropping morality about atomic bomb dropping morality about atomic bomb dropping morality which is one of the classic discussions which is one of the classic discussions which is one of the classic discussions obviously for the second world war where obviously for the second world war where obviously for the second world war where morality is concerned morality is concerned morality is concerned i find so often that we that we have to i find so often that we that we have to i find so often that we that we have to have a conversation about the fire have a conversation about the fire have a conversation about the fire bombing bombing bombing first because unless you happen to be uh first because unless you happen to be uh first because unless you happen to be uh a second a second a second world war aficionado which sounds like a world war aficionado which sounds like a world war aficionado which sounds like a strange thing to say um strange thing to say um strange thing to say um a fan of the second world war um a fan of the second world war um a fan of the second world war um oftentimes people are unaware of exactly oftentimes people are unaware of exactly oftentimes people are unaware of exactly how nasty the firebombing was that was how nasty the firebombing was that was how nasty the firebombing was that was going on going on going on and so when when an atomic bomb is and so when when an atomic bomb is and so when when an atomic bomb is dropped they see this as a giant dropped they see this as a giant dropped they see this as a giant ratcheting up of the experience of the ratcheting up of the experience of the ratcheting up of the experience of the people people people on the receiving end of these bombs but on the receiving end of these bombs but on the receiving end of these bombs but i can't think of anything that's i can't think of anything that's i can't think of anything that's um orders of magnitude worse than what um orders of magnitude worse than what um orders of magnitude worse than what you talk about with the tokyo you talk about with the tokyo you talk about with the tokyo uh firebombing which may be the worst uh firebombing which may be the worst uh firebombing which may be the worst bombing of all time can you tell us a bombing of all time can you tell us a bombing of all time can you tell us a little bit about it and then little bit about it and then little bit about it and then then contrast it a little bit with this then contrast it a little bit with this then contrast it a little bit with this question of of question of of question of of early atomic weapons because none of us early atomic weapons because none of us early atomic weapons because none of us are saying that like thermonuclear are saying that like thermonuclear are saying that like thermonuclear weapons today weapons today weapons today are the equivalent of a firebombing raid are the equivalent of a firebombing raid are the equivalent of a firebombing raid but a 1945 atomic bomb but a 1945 atomic bomb but a 1945 atomic bomb versus what curtis lemay could do to you versus what curtis lemay could do to you versus what curtis lemay could do to you with 100 or 200 b-29s uh with with with 100 or 200 b-29s uh with with with 100 or 200 b-29s uh with with napalm napalm napalm uh not that dissimilar what can you tell uh not that dissimilar what can you tell uh not that dissimilar what can you tell somebody who's maybe not aware of the somebody who's maybe not aware of the somebody who's maybe not aware of the bombings how they compared is something bombings how they compared is something bombings how they compared is something that they fully understand which is you that they fully understand which is you that they fully understand which is you know a hiroshima or a nagasaki type know a hiroshima or a nagasaki type know a hiroshima or a nagasaki type attack yeah so nippon is invented attack yeah so nippon is invented attack yeah so nippon is invented at harvard in the 1940s at harvard in the 1940s at harvard in the 1940s early 1940s and explicitly to be used

early 1940s and explicitly to be used early 1940s and explicitly to be used against asian cities because um against asian cities because um against asian cities because um asian cities were highly flammable right asian cities were highly flammable right asian cities were highly flammable right they were the houses were made of they were the houses were made of they were the houses were made of you know rice paper and wood and you know rice paper and wood and you know rice paper and wood and they were incredibly close together they were incredibly close together they were incredibly close together there were no fire breaks the streets there were no fire breaks the streets there were no fire breaks the streets were really narrow were really narrow were really narrow asian cities japanese cities were the asian cities japanese cities were the asian cities japanese cities were the perfect cities to burn down i mean perfect cities to burn down i mean perfect cities to burn down i mean there were all these calculations done there were all these calculations done there were all these calculations done um before the war about um before the war about um before the war about you know how if you used fire how much you know how if you used fire how much you know how if you used fire how much damage could you do damage could you do damage could you do to london and the answer is not as much to london and the answer is not as much to london and the answer is not as much as you think it's a as you think it's a as you think it's a it's a brick city it's got a lot of it's a brick city it's got a lot of it's a brick city it's got a lot of parks it's got wide streets in many parks it's got wide streets in many parks it's got wide streets in many areas areas areas you know you can burn some of it down you know you can burn some of it down you know you can burn some of it down but if you but if you but if you if you get a full-scale attack with if you get a full-scale attack with if you get a full-scale attack with incendiary weapons on incendiary weapons on incendiary weapons on london you're not going to get that far london you're not going to get that far london you're not going to get that far that's why the you know the germans did that's why the you know the germans did that's why the you know the germans did not go fully incendiary with not go fully incendiary with not go fully incendiary with london they they used a mix of bombs london they they used a mix of bombs london they they used a mix of bombs yeah they tried though they tried they yeah they tried though they tried they yeah they tried though they tried they used the mix used the mix used the mix right whereas if you were attacking a right whereas if you were attacking a right whereas if you were attacking a japanese city you didn't have to use japanese city you didn't have to use japanese city you didn't have to use conventional explosives conventional explosives conventional explosives the the best way to learn to attack them the the best way to learn to attack them the the best way to learn to attack them was to burn them down because they were was to burn them down because they were was to burn them down because they were they were just tinder boxes and they it they were just tinder boxes and they it they were just tinder boxes and they it was that was recognized in america was that was recognized in america was that was recognized in america and napalm was developed in order to and napalm was developed in order to and napalm was developed in order to burn down japanese cities and the person burn down japanese cities and the person burn down japanese cities and the person who who who the the bomber mafia were given napalm the the bomber mafia were given napalm the the bomber mafia were given napalm and we're told and we're told and we're told use it and hayward hansel who was uh one use it and hayward hansel who was uh one use it and hayward hansel who was uh one of the of the of the key bomber mafia um uh leaders key bomber mafia um uh leaders key bomber mafia um uh leaders who was in charge of the um 21st bomber

who was in charge of the um 21st bomber who was in charge of the um 21st bomber command command command which was the bomb command that had its which was the bomb command that had its which was the bomb command that had its the responsibility of the responsibility of the responsibility of bombing japan from uh from the marianas bombing japan from uh from the marianas bombing japan from uh from the marianas from guam from guam from guam and the air force bases on guam and and the air force bases on guam and and the air force bases on guam and taipan and uh tinian taipan and uh tinian taipan and uh tinian um really wouldn't use it he didn't um really wouldn't use it he didn't um really wouldn't use it he didn't think he thought it was immoral think he thought it was immoral think he thought it was immoral um and then uh um and then uh um and then uh lemay comes in takes over the command lemay comes in takes over the command lemay comes in takes over the command from hensel from hensel from hensel and decides he's going to go whole hog and decides he's going to go whole hog and decides he's going to go whole hog on napalm on napalm on napalm and in march of 45 he launches this and in march of 45 he launches this and in march of 45 he launches this infamous attack on tokyo infamous attack on tokyo infamous attack on tokyo where he just sends hundreds of b-29s where he just sends hundreds of b-29s where he just sends hundreds of b-29s with with with tons and tons of napon and he burns out tons and tons of napon and he burns out tons and tons of napon and he burns out what is it 16 square miles of tokyo in what is it 16 square miles of tokyo in what is it 16 square miles of tokyo in one night one night one night um kills we're not sure how many um kills we're not sure how many um kills we're not sure how many probably close to 100 000 people in one probably close to 100 000 people in one probably close to 100 000 people in one night burns them to death night burns them to death night burns them to death really um if you were on the ground in really um if you were on the ground in really um if you were on the ground in the part of tokyo the part of tokyo the part of tokyo of east tokyo that lemay bombed that of east tokyo that lemay bombed that of east tokyo that lemay bombed that night in march of 45 night in march of 45 night in march of 45 i don't think you would uh detect a i don't think you would uh detect a i don't think you would uh detect a distinction between distinction between distinction between what it uh between that experience and what it uh between that experience and what it uh between that experience and the experience of being on the ground in the experience of being on the ground in the experience of being on the ground in hiroshima or nagasaki hiroshima or nagasaki hiroshima or nagasaki um in august of that same year i don't um in august of that same year i don't um in august of that same year i don't think it feels any different think it feels any different think it feels any different to be bombed with a nuclear bomb that to be bombed with a nuclear bomb that to be bombed with a nuclear bomb that summer or to be bombed with napalm summer or to be bombed with napalm summer or to be bombed with napalm there's a case of made that napalm was there's a case of made that napalm was there's a case of made that napalm was worse um worse um worse um i was just gonna say that you don't you i was just gonna say that you don't you i was just gonna say that you don't you don't have any blast at least casualties don't have any blast at least casualties don't have any blast at least casualties it's all burned up it's all burned up it's all burned up it's all burned down it's and the it's all burned down it's and the it's all burned down it's and the stories are stories are stories are if you want to get into the nitty-gritty

if you want to get into the nitty-gritty if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of this you want to of this you want to of this you want to compare survivor accounts from tokyo in compare survivor accounts from tokyo in compare survivor accounts from tokyo in march and march and march and hiroshima in august and hiroshima in august and hiroshima in august and i found that i found the march napalm i found that i found the march napalm i found that i found the march napalm survivor accounts to be more horrifying survivor accounts to be more horrifying survivor accounts to be more horrifying i really did i really did i really did um so it's yeah there's this you're um so it's yeah there's this you're um so it's yeah there's this you're right there is this kind of right there is this kind of right there is this kind of we have a sense that the you know the we have a sense that the you know the we have a sense that the you know the moral the real moral moral the real moral moral the real moral um horror was uh the atomic bomb in um horror was uh the atomic bomb in um horror was uh the atomic bomb in august and now that's just not true um august and now that's just not true um august and now that's just not true um and also and also and also we dropped two atomic bombs we dropped two atomic bombs we dropped two atomic bombs uh lemay bomb 66 japanese cities between uh lemay bomb 66 japanese cities between uh lemay bomb 66 japanese cities between march and august to 45 66 march and august to 45 66 march and august to 45 66 including a couple afterwards let's not including a couple afterwards let's not including a couple afterwards let's not forget the couple after that forget the couple after that forget the couple after that i mean like there's just no there is no i mean like there's just no there is no i mean like there's just no there is no comparison comparison comparison if you want to get on a moral high horse if you want to get on a moral high horse if you want to get on a moral high horse about american about american about american air power in the second world war in the air power in the second world war in the air power in the second world war in the japanese theater japanese theater japanese theater pacific theater it's lemay pacific theater it's lemay pacific theater it's lemay who you should be focused on not the who you should be focused on not the who you should be focused on not the decision to drop nuclear weapons decision to drop nuclear weapons decision to drop nuclear weapons what i always tell people uh is that what i always tell people uh is that what i always tell people uh is that have we not dropped new nuclear weapons have we not dropped new nuclear weapons have we not dropped new nuclear weapons and i'm not and i'm not and i'm not i'm not defending that policy but have i'm not defending that policy but have i'm not defending that policy but have we not done it the fire bombing was just we not done it the fire bombing was just we not done it the fire bombing was just going to continue it wasn't going to going to continue it wasn't going to going to continue it wasn't going to spare anybody anything spare anybody anything spare anybody anything um so so if um so so if um so so if i i was trying to imagine uh the i i was trying to imagine uh the i i was trying to imagine uh the difference between difference between difference between and and you may be able to address this and and you may be able to address this and and you may be able to address this better than i can that so in in europe better than i can that so in in europe better than i can that so in in europe during the bombing of german cities when

during the bombing of german cities when during the bombing of german cities when either either either from the german perspective you got very from the german perspective you got very from the german perspective you got very unlucky or the allied unlucky or the allied unlucky or the allied bombing perspective you got very lucky bombing perspective you got very lucky bombing perspective you got very lucky you created the conditions that were you created the conditions that were you created the conditions that were known as a firestorm known as a firestorm known as a firestorm um what's the difference between a um what's the difference between a um what's the difference between a dresden or a hamburg dresden or a hamburg dresden or a hamburg firestorm and and the firebombings in firestorm and and the firebombings in firestorm and and the firebombings in japan japan japan because i'm not clear on it yeah um because i'm not clear on it yeah um because i'm not clear on it yeah um no i will i will preface this by saying no i will i will preface this by saying no i will i will preface this by saying that that that um i am not an expert on the fire um i am not an expert on the fire um i am not an expert on the fire bombing of president bombing of president bombing of president um my understanding is simply that the um my understanding is simply that the um my understanding is simply that the difference difference difference would be the scale of the would be the scale of the would be the scale of the first of all tokyo is a good deal larger first of all tokyo is a good deal larger first of all tokyo is a good deal larger and more densely populated than dresden and more densely populated than dresden and more densely populated than dresden is is is and two because the city is so much more and two because the city is so much more and two because the city is so much more flammable that you're going to get flammable that you're going to get flammable that you're going to get the fires is going to be a lot more the fires is going to be a lot more the fires is going to be a lot more intense and then the intense and then the intense and then the what i don't know but i strongly suspect what i don't know but i strongly suspect what i don't know but i strongly suspect as well that as well that as well that um uh that there were many many many um uh that there were many many many um uh that there were many many many more v29s engaged over tokyo more v29s engaged over tokyo more v29s engaged over tokyo um then bombers engaged over um then bombers engaged over um then bombers engaged over i think the scale of the attack is i think the scale of the attack is i think the scale of the attack is bigger and then there's also these weird bigger and then there's also these weird bigger and then there's also these weird things that things that things that you know quite a um you know quite a um you know quite a um by by awful coincidence the night of the by by awful coincidence the night of the by by awful coincidence the night of the bombing campaign over tokyo bombing campaign over tokyo bombing campaign over tokyo um it's it's already a windy night so um it's it's already a windy night so um it's it's already a windy night so you know you as you were alluding to you know you as you were alluding to you know you as you were alluding to when you drop a lot of fire bombs you when you drop a lot of fire bombs you when you drop a lot of fire bombs you create this create this create this autumn this kind of um artificial wind autumn this kind of um artificial wind autumn this kind of um artificial wind system system system um this this uh firestorm

um this this uh firestorm um this this uh firestorm which is a kind of rolling ball of fire which is a kind of rolling ball of fire which is a kind of rolling ball of fire which consumes everything in its path which consumes everything in its path which consumes everything in its path and so it naturally creates its own kind and so it naturally creates its own kind and so it naturally creates its own kind of of of um momentum and field of air rushing um momentum and field of air rushing um momentum and field of air rushing forward forward forward but if you've got a if it's a windy day but if you've got a if it's a windy day but if you've got a if it's a windy day it's going to be a lot worse it's going to be a lot worse it's going to be a lot worse well it just so happened to be a windy well it just so happened to be a windy well it just so happened to be a windy day that night in day that night in day that night in um in tokyo so it's like there's a lot um in tokyo so it's like there's a lot um in tokyo so it's like there's a lot of things going on but some combination of things going on but some combination of things going on but some combination of those of those of those factors i think makes uh makes tokyo factors i think makes uh makes tokyo factors i think makes uh makes tokyo even more horrific than dresden that's even more horrific than dresden that's even more horrific than dresden that's by the way saying a lot something by the way saying a lot something by the way saying a lot something was not a walk in the park no hamburg was not a walk in the park no hamburg was not a walk in the park no hamburg either and those were either and those were either and those were a thousand bombers over hamburg i think a thousand bombers over hamburg i think a thousand bombers over hamburg i think crazy numbers so so something i learned crazy numbers so so something i learned crazy numbers so so something i learned in your book that i found fascinating in your book that i found fascinating in your book that i found fascinating and i wonder if you have an opinion as and i wonder if you have an opinion as and i wonder if you have an opinion as to why this might be but to why this might be but to why this might be but but you were talking about how you were but you were talking about how you were but you were talking about how you were trying to locate a museum trying to locate a museum trying to locate a museum or a memorial to the firebombing victims or a memorial to the firebombing victims or a memorial to the firebombing victims considering that it's probably the most considering that it's probably the most considering that it's probably the most uh destructive uh aerial raid in history uh destructive uh aerial raid in history uh destructive uh aerial raid in history and yet i think you had said you it was and yet i think you had said you it was and yet i think you had said you it was some non-descript building that looked some non-descript building that looked some non-descript building that looked like you'd come out of like a little like you'd come out of like a little like you'd come out of like a little medical facility medical facility medical facility why is there no extra attention paid to why is there no extra attention paid to why is there no extra attention paid to this on the japanese side of things this on the japanese side of things this on the japanese side of things um when one would look at this and just um when one would look at this and just um when one would look at this and just say the scale alone would seem to merit say the scale alone would seem to merit say the scale alone would seem to merit uh memorials or remembrances or uh memorials or remembrances or uh memorials or remembrances or or or more um conferences or whatnot on or or more um conferences or whatnot on or or more um conferences or whatnot on this sort of thing this sort of thing this sort of thing i mean it's a really good question i i mean it's a really good question i i mean it's a really good question i don't have a good answer um don't have a good answer um don't have a good answer um yeah the only real monument to that yeah the only real monument to that yeah the only real monument to that night is this little

night is this little night is this little private museum in a in a kind of private museum in a in a kind of private museum in a in a kind of you know small little office building i you know small little office building i you know small little office building i say it looks like a dentist office say it looks like a dentist office say it looks like a dentist office on a side street in east tokyo it's like on a side street in east tokyo it's like on a side street in east tokyo it's like so far from so far from so far from the museum to the most horrific night in the museum to the most horrific night in the museum to the most horrific night in the history of japan is nowhere near all the history of japan is nowhere near all the history of japan is nowhere near all the other museums in tokyo it's like i the other museums in tokyo it's like i the other museums in tokyo it's like i said it's a little said it's a little said it's a little um i think there is um i think there is um i think there is uh i mean maybe it's just a desire to uh i mean maybe it's just a desire to uh i mean maybe it's just a desire to move on move on move on to but they very i mean remember the to but they very i mean remember the to but they very i mean remember the japanese japanese japanese after the war gave bestowed one of the after the war gave bestowed one of the after the war gave bestowed one of the highest honors civilian highest honors civilian highest honors civilian honors that can be bestowed on a honors that can be bestowed on a honors that can be bestowed on a foreigner by the japanese government foreigner by the japanese government foreigner by the japanese government on curtis lemay ostensibly was on curtis lemay ostensibly was on curtis lemay ostensibly was for his help in rebuilding the japanese for his help in rebuilding the japanese for his help in rebuilding the japanese air force but air force but air force but think about it a guy orders a an attack think about it a guy orders a an attack think about it a guy orders a an attack on on on your capital city in which 100 000 your capital city in which 100 000 your capital city in which 100 000 people die under the most people die under the most people die under the most horrific circumstances imaginable and horrific circumstances imaginable and horrific circumstances imaginable and you turn around you turn around you turn around and 10 years later you're giving him the and 10 years later you're giving him the and 10 years later you're giving him the highest award that can be highest award that can be highest award that can be given to a foreigner in your country given to a foreigner in your country given to a foreigner in your country that suggests to me a kind of that suggests to me a kind of that suggests to me a kind of willingness eagerness to put the war willingness eagerness to put the war willingness eagerness to put the war behind them i mean i just don't think behind them i mean i just don't think behind them i mean i just don't think there was any desire uh to dwell on there was any desire uh to dwell on there was any desire uh to dwell on that last six months of the conflict that last six months of the conflict that last six months of the conflict um you know it just wasn't i don't know um you know it just wasn't i don't know um you know it just wasn't i don't know i sort of i sort of i sort of and part of me part of me agrees with it

and part of me part of me agrees with it and part of me part of me agrees with it i mean sometimes there's just things i mean sometimes there's just things i mean sometimes there's just things like like like where i did a podcast episode for my um where i did a podcast episode for my um where i did a podcast episode for my um podcast revisions history last season on podcast revisions history last season on podcast revisions history last season on the 911 memorial and the 911 memorial and the 911 memorial and i at the end of it was i at the end of it was i at the end of it was i have some real misgivings about that i have some real misgivings about that i have some real misgivings about that memorial memorial memorial i i think on some level it's i i think on some level it's i i think on some level it's inappropriate um inappropriate um inappropriate um so memorials are tricky things like this so memorials are tricky things like this so memorials are tricky things like this they're legitimate reasons not to they're legitimate reasons not to they're legitimate reasons not to memorialize memorialize memorialize perfect gift events you know i i think perfect gift events you know i i think perfect gift events you know i i think it's sort of up to the it's sort of up to the it's sort of up to the individual country or city or um individual country or city or um individual country or city or um so yeah that was their choice their so yeah that was their choice their so yeah that was their choice their choice was to move on you know as i was looking at um curtis you know as i was looking at um curtis lemay he reminded me of a lot of other lemay he reminded me of a lot of other lemay he reminded me of a lot of other wartime leaders of the sort wartime leaders of the sort wartime leaders of the sort that somebody might argue you know when that somebody might argue you know when that somebody might argue you know when war happens and it gets really dirty and war happens and it gets really dirty and war happens and it gets really dirty and bloody these are the kind of men you bloody these are the kind of men you bloody these are the kind of men you need right the ones who will do whatever need right the ones who will do whatever need right the ones who will do whatever it takes it takes it takes but what's interesting is obviously but what's interesting is obviously but what's interesting is obviously people like that um people like that um people like that um you know you think of a george patton you know you think of a george patton you know you think of a george patton right but george patton dies right but george patton dies right but george patton dies right after the second world war is over right after the second world war is over right after the second world war is over so you don't have patton in charge of so you don't have patton in charge of so you don't have patton in charge of cold war policy right but you have um cold war policy right but you have um cold war policy right but you have um you have lemay in charge of strategic you have lemay in charge of strategic you have lemay in charge of strategic air command and all the people who are air command and all the people who are air command and all the people who are deciding how the next war right the deciding how the next war right the deciding how the next war right the third world war is going to be fought third world war is going to be fought third world war is going to be fought and uh i when we did the podcast on um and uh i when we did the podcast on um and uh i when we did the podcast on um on the early history of nuclear weapons on the early history of nuclear weapons on the early history of nuclear weapons i used a little bit of the x-com

i used a little bit of the x-com i used a little bit of the x-com tapes you know the secret tapes that tapes you know the secret tapes that tapes you know the secret tapes that john f kennedy made john f kennedy made john f kennedy made during the deliberations over the cuban during the deliberations over the cuban during the deliberations over the cuban missile crisis that that only his missile crisis that that only his missile crisis that that only his brother knew were being made so it's a brother knew were being made so it's a brother knew were being made so it's a secret taping system secret taping system secret taping system where guys like lemay in conversation where guys like lemay in conversation where guys like lemay in conversation are being taped are being taped are being taped and lemay didn't even have a problem and lemay didn't even have a problem and lemay didn't even have a problem taking a shot at taking a shot at taking a shot at jack kennedy's dad during the cuban jack kennedy's dad during the cuban jack kennedy's dad during the cuban missile crisis i mean missile crisis i mean missile crisis i mean who has the who has the guts to do that who has the who has the guts to do that who has the who has the guts to do that um um um is there a difference between having a is there a difference between having a is there a difference between having a guy like lemay who you need in wartime guy like lemay who you need in wartime guy like lemay who you need in wartime the way you might need a patent or any the way you might need a patent or any the way you might need a patent or any one of these other one of these other one of these other um people who might who might be um people who might who might be um people who might who might be different figures and might be seen different figures and might be seen different figures and might be seen differently in peacetime versus wartime differently in peacetime versus wartime differently in peacetime versus wartime i mean how much are we still living with i mean how much are we still living with i mean how much are we still living with the decisions and the systems and the the decisions and the systems and the the decisions and the systems and the assumptions and all those sorts of assumptions and all those sorts of assumptions and all those sorts of things that lemay things that lemay things that lemay in 20 years or something of of running in 20 years or something of of running in 20 years or something of of running the post second world war american the post second world war american the post second world war american um um air operations how much is is um um air operations how much is is um um air operations how much is is are we living with general lemay's uh are we living with general lemay's uh are we living with general lemay's uh attitudes attitudes attitudes and and what not today even with the and and what not today even with the and and what not today even with the legacy of his targeting and his legacy of his targeting and his legacy of his targeting and his attitudes attitudes attitudes uh really interesting question i i uh really interesting question i i uh really interesting question i i actually you know i i am i only know actually you know i i am i only know actually you know i i am i only know what i know what i know what i know you know i haven't anywhere near your you know i haven't anywhere near your you know i haven't anywhere near your knowledge and background knowledge and background knowledge and background no no don't play that game because no no don't play that game because no no don't play that game because you're assuming i know more than i know you're assuming i know more than i know you're assuming i know more than i know no i will say this in the course of no i will say this in the course of no i will say this in the course of reporting this book reporting this book reporting this book i talk to many people who are uh i talk to many people who are uh i talk to many people who are uh currently currently currently in the air force quite not some of them in the air force quite not some of them in the air force quite not some of them quite i mean i had a long conversation quite i mean i had a long conversation quite i mean i had a long conversation with with with both the previous chief of staff the air both the previous chief of staff the air both the previous chief of staff the air force and the current chiefs after the

force and the current chiefs after the force and the current chiefs after the air first air first air first um and then a number of air force um and then a number of air force um and then a number of air force historians and historians and historians and i have to say i was uh i have to say i was uh i have to say i was uh overwhelmed at the kind of moral overwhelmed at the kind of moral overwhelmed at the kind of moral sophistication of their sophistication of their sophistication of their and strategic sophistication of their and strategic sophistication of their and strategic sophistication of their thinking um thinking um thinking um we've come a long way from curtis may um we've come a long way from curtis may um we've come a long way from curtis may um [Music] [Music] [Music] these are people who you know lumay had these are people who you know lumay had these are people who you know lumay had a series of ideas that made him a series of ideas that made him a series of ideas that made him in peacetime to be quite problematic in peacetime to be quite problematic in peacetime to be quite problematic one was this idea of the primacy of the one was this idea of the primacy of the one was this idea of the primacy of the air force that he air force that he air force that he you know he's not really interested in you know he's not really interested in you know he's not really interested in the other services when he's running the the other services when he's running the the other services when he's running the strategic air command strategic air command strategic air command he thinks he's the show he thinks you he thinks he's the show he thinks you he thinks he's the show he thinks you can win can win can win vietnam from the air i mean vietnam from the air i mean vietnam from the air i mean you know i'm not a military person but i you know i'm not a military person but i you know i'm not a military person but i know enough to know that that's nonsense know enough to know that that's nonsense know enough to know that that's nonsense you can't you can't win you could not you can't you can't win you could not you can't you can't win you could not win the vietnam war from the air win the vietnam war from the air win the vietnam war from the air right that's that's a textbook example right that's that's a textbook example right that's that's a textbook example of a war that cannot be run from the air of a war that cannot be run from the air of a war that cannot be run from the air and you know korea what what the air and you know korea what what the air and you know korea what what the air force does in korea force does in korea force does in korea i think within with it with the spirit i think within with it with the spirit i think within with it with the spirit of curtis the mayor that much in mind of curtis the mayor that much in mind of curtis the mayor that much in mind is appalling i mean they they pull the is appalling i mean they they pull the is appalling i mean they they pull the same trick in same trick in same trick in korea they napalm everything in sight um korea they napalm everything in sight um korea they napalm everything in sight um they reduce they reduce they reduce there's a moment in the korean war that there's a moment in the korean war that there's a moment in the korean war that where where where they run out of targets they have burned they run out of targets they have burned they run out of targets they have burned the ground everything that can be burned the ground everything that can be burned the ground everything that can be burned to the ground to the ground to the ground nothing's left right that's like and nothing's left right that's like and nothing's left right that's like and they thought they could win the korean

they thought they could win the korean they thought they could win the korean war from the air and they couldn't war from the air and they couldn't war from the air and they couldn't so there's a kind of lemay takes his so there's a kind of lemay takes his so there's a kind of lemay takes his what he interprets as his success in the what he interprets as his success in the what he interprets as his success in the second world war and he thinks that it second world war and he thinks that it second world war and he thinks that it applies to applies to applies to all future conflicts and he's solely all future conflicts and he's solely all future conflicts and he's solely mistaken mistaken mistaken and i don't think the current leadership and i don't think the current leadership and i don't think the current leadership of the air force of the air force of the air force um is in the grip of that illusion um is in the grip of that illusion um is in the grip of that illusion they are very conscious of the they are very conscious of the they are very conscious of the limitations of limitations of limitations of air power and very aware of their need air power and very aware of their need air power and very aware of their need to coordinate with the other branches to coordinate with the other branches to coordinate with the other branches in order to wage effective war so um in order to wage effective war so um in order to wage effective war so um i don't think the legacy of i think if i don't think the legacy of i think if i don't think the legacy of i think if anything it's the bomber mafia anything it's the bomber mafia anything it's the bomber mafia whose legacy kind of looms over the whose legacy kind of looms over the whose legacy kind of looms over the contemporary air force not contemporary air force not contemporary air force not curse the way i was just gonna go there curse the way i was just gonna go there curse the way i was just gonna go there and i was going to ask whether or not and i was going to ask whether or not and i was going to ask whether or not you thought you thought you thought that maybe the bomber mafia and people that maybe the bomber mafia and people that maybe the bomber mafia and people like it in other aerial like it in other aerial like it in other aerial uh uh theory groups if they weren't just uh uh theory groups if they weren't just uh uh theory groups if they weren't just ahead of their time and they were just ahead of their time and they were just ahead of their time and they were just waiting for the technology waiting for the technology waiting for the technology to catch up because in the vietnam war to catch up because in the vietnam war to catch up because in the vietnam war you use your uh you use your uh you use your uh you you have your first so-called smart you you have your first so-called smart you you have your first so-called smart bombs you know near the end of the war bombs you know near the end of the war bombs you know near the end of the war that are taking out bridges and whatnot that are taking out bridges and whatnot that are taking out bridges and whatnot and then of course you see what happens and then of course you see what happens and then of course you see what happens in the in the early gulf war type stuff in the in the early gulf war type stuff in the in the early gulf war type stuff i mean is this a case where we can i mean is this a case where we can i mean is this a case where we can finally almost hit finally almost hit finally almost hit a pickle barrel from 30 000 feet and a pickle barrel from 30 000 feet and a pickle barrel from 30 000 feet and does that make the bomber mafia's does that make the bomber mafia's does that make the bomber mafia's assumptions assumptions assumptions um more apropos today than they were at um more apropos today than they were at um more apropos today than they were at the time the time the time yes so the bottom off here i mean yes so the bottom off here i mean yes so the bottom off here i mean they were just they were 50 years too they were just they were 50 years too they were just they were 50 years too early

early early 60 years too early i mean now we really 60 years too early i mean now we really 60 years too early i mean now we really can't do what they dread they're doing can't do what they dread they're doing can't do what they dread they're doing in in in nashville air force base in the 1930s oh nashville air force base in the 1930s oh nashville air force base in the 1930s oh my i had a my i had a my i had a drinks one night when i was reporting my drinks one night when i was reporting my drinks one night when i was reporting my book uh in the backyard of the chief of book uh in the backyard of the chief of book uh in the backyard of the chief of staff of staff of staff of the old team staff of the air force at the old team staff of the air force at the old team staff of the air force at what's called the air house in what's called the air house in what's called the air house in fort myer just across the river from fort myer just across the river from fort myer just across the river from washington dc and all these top washington dc and all these top washington dc and all these top air force guys were there and they were air force guys were there and they were air force guys were there and they were talking about this very point and they talking about this very point and they talking about this very point and they were comparing were comparing were comparing um korea to vietnam to the gulf war to um korea to vietnam to the gulf war to um korea to vietnam to the gulf war to the present day the present day the present day and their point was like you know in the and their point was like you know in the and their point was like you know in the korean war or the second world war korean war or the second world war korean war or the second world war if you wanted to take a there's a row of if you wanted to take a there's a row of if you wanted to take a there's a row of houses along the street where the houses along the street where the houses along the street where the chairman of the joint chiefs lives and chairman of the joint chiefs lives and chairman of the joint chiefs lives and the vice chairs of joint chiefs lives the vice chairs of joint chiefs lives the vice chairs of joint chiefs lives and the and the and the chief of staff at the airport so there's chief of staff at the airport so there's chief of staff at the airport so there's all these kind of hot military hotshots all these kind of hot military hotshots all these kind of hot military hotshots and they were like if you want to take and they were like if you want to take and they were like if you want to take out this row of houses in the second out this row of houses in the second out this row of houses in the second world war you would have come with world war you would have come with world war you would have come with i forgot you know a whole fleet of i forgot you know a whole fleet of i forgot you know a whole fleet of bombers because most of the bombs aren't bombers because most of the bombs aren't bombers because most of the bombs aren't going to hit it right you and you're going to hit it right you and you're going to hit it right you and you're going to have to level going to have to level going to have to level if you want to like take out this if you want to like take out this if you want to like take out this gathering in the backyard you're going gathering in the backyard you're going gathering in the backyard you're going to have to level the whole street to have to level the whole street to have to level the whole street because there's no way you can be sure because there's no way you can be sure because there's no way you can be sure you can just take that up you can just take that up you can just take that up and then they walk me through each war and then they walk me through each war and then they walk me through each war since then since then since then and each way you get better and better and each way you get better and better and each way you get better and better and better you need fewer and fewer and better you need fewer and fewer and better you need fewer and fewer bombers bombers bombers and then they said then today and then they said then today and then they said then today you know they could take out one of us you know they could take out one of us you know they could take out one of us just sitting around this little like you just sitting around this little like you just sitting around this little like you know know know sitting in the backyard and we wouldn't sitting in the backyard and we wouldn't sitting in the backyard and we wouldn't even know we wouldn't even hear the

even know we wouldn't even hear the even know we wouldn't even hear the bomb coming like that's how good they're bomb coming like that's how good they're bomb coming like that's how good they're not here now not here now not here now like they can take out a guy inside a like they can take out a guy inside a like they can take out a guy inside a room if they want room if they want room if they want um so yeah that's what the bomber and um so yeah that's what the bomber and um so yeah that's what the bomber and mafia dream dreamt up in mafia dream dreamt up in mafia dream dreamt up in 35 they were they were 60 years too 35 they were they were 60 years too 35 they were they were 60 years too early early early 70 years too early i was having i was 70 years too early i was having i was 70 years too early i was having i was having a conversation i didn't mean to having a conversation i didn't mean to having a conversation i didn't mean to interrupt you i'm sorry interrupt you i'm sorry interrupt you i'm sorry i was having a conversation with i was having a conversation with i was having a conversation with somebody we were talking about what made somebody we were talking about what made somebody we were talking about what made the first world war a kind of unique the first world war a kind of unique the first world war a kind of unique experience and it revolved around some experience and it revolved around some experience and it revolved around some of the same stuff because of the same stuff because of the same stuff because we were talking about the overriding uh we were talking about the overriding uh we were talking about the overriding uh experience that is so overwhelming experience that is so overwhelming experience that is so overwhelming when you read about it and so impossible when you read about it and so impossible when you read about it and so impossible to imagine of being under the kind of to imagine of being under the kind of to imagine of being under the kind of artillery fire that was common in the artillery fire that was common in the artillery fire that was common in the first world war first world war first world war and the guys said to me we're never and the guys said to me we're never and the guys said to me we're never going to see artillery fire like that going to see artillery fire like that going to see artillery fire like that again again again because it was a function of the lack of because it was a function of the lack of because it was a function of the lack of accuracy that you had to have so many accuracy that you had to have so many accuracy that you had to have so many guns trying to take out stuff he goes guns trying to take out stuff he goes guns trying to take out stuff he goes today today today you would have one gun and it would you would have one gun and it would you would have one gun and it would maybe miss once but it might not miss maybe miss once but it might not miss maybe miss once but it might not miss once and then it would take out the once and then it would take out the once and then it would take out the target on the second hit you didn't need target on the second hit you didn't need target on the second hit you didn't need a thousand artillery pieces a thousand artillery pieces a thousand artillery pieces to neutralize something even in the to neutralize something even in the to neutralize something even in the second world war only the soviets were second world war only the soviets were second world war only the soviets were using the same number of pieces using the same number of pieces using the same number of pieces uh uh in in terms of trying to knock uh uh in in terms of trying to knock uh uh in in terms of trying to knock something out it was already the something out it was already the something out it was already the accuracy had already made accuracy had already made accuracy had already made first world war artillery numbers uh a first world war artillery numbers uh a first world war artillery numbers uh a moot point it was almost moot point it was almost moot point it was almost counterproductive at that point counterproductive at that point counterproductive at that point so let me ask let me ask this about the so let me ask let me ask this about the so let me ask let me ask this about the you know because i always feel so sorry you know because i always feel so sorry you know because i always feel so sorry for these guys who were ahead of their for these guys who were ahead of their for these guys who were ahead of their time time time or trying to take the moral high ground or trying to take the moral high ground or trying to take the moral high ground you know you know you know and figure out a way to make war less and figure out a way to make war less and figure out a way to make war less terrible what happened reputationally terrible what happened reputationally terrible what happened reputationally and career-wise to all these guys and career-wise to all these guys and career-wise to all these guys who curtis lemay sort of shoved aside in

who curtis lemay sort of shoved aside in who curtis lemay sort of shoved aside in his in his desire to be his in his desire to be his in his desire to be more efficient and get the job done did more efficient and get the job done did more efficient and get the job done did those guys end their days those guys end their days those guys end their days in sort of obscurity or were they in sort of obscurity or were they in sort of obscurity or were they considered to be failures or what considered to be failures or what considered to be failures or what happened to the guy who chose the moral happened to the guy who chose the moral happened to the guy who chose the moral high ground in the end high ground in the end high ground in the end well it's lemay who becomes first well it's lemay who becomes first well it's lemay who becomes first head of the strategic air command and head of the strategic air command and head of the strategic air command and then the chief of staff of the air force then the chief of staff of the air force then the chief of staff of the air force none of the bomber mafia you know none of the bomber mafia you know none of the bomber mafia you know keep rising in the ranks they're they're keep rising in the ranks they're they're keep rising in the ranks they're they're shunted aside haywood hansel who's shunted aside haywood hansel who's shunted aside haywood hansel who's a kind of i portrayed my book at the a kind of i portrayed my book at the a kind of i portrayed my book at the as really the kind of spiritual leader as really the kind of spiritual leader as really the kind of spiritual leader of the bomber mafia of the bomber mafia of the bomber mafia he his career is over you know lemay he his career is over you know lemay he his career is over you know lemay forces him out of the 21st bomber forces him out of the 21st bomber forces him out of the 21st bomber command in command in command in january of 45 and he goes back to a january of 45 and he goes back to a january of 45 and he goes back to a training training training facility in phoenix and then he's done facility in phoenix and then he's done facility in phoenix and then he's done spends the rest of his life showing up spends the rest of his life showing up spends the rest of his life showing up every now and again for seminars at the every now and again for seminars at the every now and again for seminars at the air force academy air force academy air force academy um and you can go down the list these um and you can go down the list these um and you can go down the list these guys did they did not have a good war you did they did not have a good war you know to use that phrase that know to use that phrase that know to use that phrase that um they were they were the um they were they were the um they were they were the um they were the um they were the um they were the proponents of what was considered to be proponents of what was considered to be proponents of what was considered to be a failed strategy a failed strategy a failed strategy um so yeah they paid the price um so yeah they paid the price um so yeah they paid the price for this for being too early they for this for being too early they for this for being too early they weren't they were not held up weren't they were not held up weren't they were not held up until today they were not held up as until today they were not held up as until today they were not held up as pioneers pioneers pioneers they were held up as they were they were held up as they were they were held up as they were considered to be values considered to be values considered to be values so i was gonna i was gonna ask you what

so i was gonna i was gonna ask you what so i was gonna i was gonna ask you what those uh what those air force folk that those uh what those air force folk that those uh what those air force folk that you were having drinks with today you were having drinks with today you were having drinks with today who were going over the different wars who were going over the different wars who were going over the different wars and comparing and contrasting them and comparing and contrasting them and comparing and contrasting them what would did they have an opinion one what would did they have an opinion one what would did they have an opinion one way or the other on those guys on the way or the other on those guys on the way or the other on those guys on the bomber mafia guys and and bomber mafia guys and and bomber mafia guys and and and in other words has the long-term and in other words has the long-term and in other words has the long-term reputation reputation reputation uh been restored to some degree or or or uh been restored to some degree or or or uh been restored to some degree or or or are those guys are those guys are those guys i mean i guess i'm trying to figure out i mean i guess i'm trying to figure out i mean i guess i'm trying to figure out if i was at the get together with him i if i was at the get together with him i if i was at the get together with him i would say well what do you think of would say well what do you think of would say well what do you think of those guys did they give you any those guys did they give you any those guys did they give you any impressions impressions impressions i think they understand i think they i think they understand i think they i think they understand i think they have enormous respect for what the have enormous respect for what the have enormous respect for what the bomber mafia did bomber mafia did bomber mafia did i mean they planted the seed that that i mean they planted the seed that that i mean they planted the seed that that resulted in resulted in resulted in uh the kind of air power we have today uh the kind of air power we have today uh the kind of air power we have today right this right this right this emphasis on precision which is defined emphasis on precision which is defined emphasis on precision which is defined um air strategy for the last generation um air strategy for the last generation um air strategy for the last generation is it's the residue of the bomber mafia is it's the residue of the bomber mafia is it's the residue of the bomber mafia the little kernel planted by the bomber the little kernel planted by the bomber the little kernel planted by the bomber mafia um mafia um mafia um back in the 1930s so they have enormous back in the 1930s so they have enormous back in the 1930s so they have enormous respect i think respect i think respect i think they're also you know i remember um they're also you know i remember um they're also you know i remember um uh when i was hanging out with all these uh when i was hanging out with all these uh when i was hanging out with all these air force guys air force guys air force guys they're you know they're obsessed with they're you know they're obsessed with they're you know they're obsessed with gps gps gps and there's a guy and i forgot his thing and there's a guy and i forgot his thing and there's a guy and i forgot his thing you probably know his name you probably know his name you probably know his name there's a guy who's considered to be the there's a guy who's considered to be the there's a guy who's considered to be the kind of father of modern gps who worked kind of father of modern gps who worked kind of father of modern gps who worked very very closely with the air force very very closely with the air force very very closely with the air force and all of these guys are like oh you and all of these guys are like oh you and all of these guys are like oh you gotta go talk to him you gotta thought gotta go talk to him you gotta thought gotta go talk to him you gotta thought you gotta do this thing on this guy you gotta do this thing on this guy you gotta do this thing on this guy you know the kind of reverence for you know the kind of reverence for you know the kind of reverence for somebody who somebody who somebody who finally gave them the technology that finally gave them the technology that finally gave them the technology that allowed for true precision

allowed for true precision allowed for true precision um was i mean it was beautiful um was i mean it was beautiful um was i mean it was beautiful see you know like this idea this guy who see you know like this idea this guy who see you know like this idea this guy who they were talking about wasn't a they were talking about wasn't a they were talking about wasn't a military guy he was just uh military guy he was just uh military guy he was just uh he's like he was like a nerdy little he's like he was like a nerdy little he's like he was like a nerdy little techie guy off in techie guy off in techie guy off in middle of nowhere who broke the code and middle of nowhere who broke the code and middle of nowhere who broke the code and figured out how to figured out how to figured out how to harness this particular technology for harness this particular technology for harness this particular technology for their purposes their purposes their purposes and they revered him so i i think and and they revered him so i i think and and they revered him so i i think and when i was chatting when i was chatting when i was chatting when i was at the air university talking when i was at the air university talking when i was at the air university talking to all these air historians to all these air historians to all these air historians ifr historians they absolutely ifr historians they absolutely ifr historians they absolutely um you know these they spoke of the um you know these they spoke of the um you know these they spoke of the bomber mafia like they had known them bomber mafia like they had known them bomber mafia like they had known them personally personally personally i mean that's how closely they had i mean that's how closely they had i mean that's how closely they had studied and how much they admired them you know it strikes me that one could you know it strikes me that one could say say say potentially that we're in a similar potentially that we're in a similar potentially that we're in a similar period now period now period now to uh the way things were before the to uh the way things were before the to uh the way things were before the first world war and the way things were first world war and the way things were first world war and the way things were before the second world war where the before the second world war where the before the second world war where the entire entire entire uh intellectual and philosophical uh intellectual and philosophical uh intellectual and philosophical framework for framework for framework for we'll just take the air force now we'll just take the air force now we'll just take the air force now because that's what we're talking about because that's what we're talking about because that's what we're talking about but you could say the same thing about but you could say the same thing about but you could say the same thing about uh the ground services or the naval uh the ground services or the naval uh the ground services or the naval services services services uh we're in a situation where there has uh we're in a situation where there has uh we're in a situation where there has not been a war not been a war not been a war fought between the major powers in a fought between the major powers in a fought between the major powers in a very long time we've had multiple very long time we've had multiple very long time we've had multiple generations of weapon systems come and generations of weapon systems come and generations of weapon systems come and go since the last time go since the last time go since the last time those weapon systems were used against those weapon systems were used against those weapon systems were used against people of of people of of people of of similar capabilities i wonder if many of

similar capabilities i wonder if many of similar capabilities i wonder if many of the things that are taken as gospel the things that are taken as gospel the things that are taken as gospel today today today would be seen are going to be are going would be seen are going to be are going would be seen are going to be are going to be shown to be failed to be shown to be failed to be shown to be failed experiments or dead ends philosophically experiments or dead ends philosophically experiments or dead ends philosophically speaking when speaking when speaking when when the u.s is god forbid but when the when the u.s is god forbid but when the when the u.s is god forbid but when the us is fighting us is fighting us is fighting um powers of of like capabilities or um powers of of like capabilities or um powers of of like capabilities or similar or close to like you know you similar or close to like you know you similar or close to like you know you fight a china you fight a russia you fight a china you fight a russia you fight a china you fight a russia you fight a russia and china together fight a russia and china together fight a russia and china together maybe you find out that some of the maybe you find out that some of the maybe you find out that some of the things that were working so well things that were working so well things that were working so well in an iraq situation or a syria in an iraq situation or a syria in an iraq situation or a syria situation or nicaragua situation with situation or nicaragua situation with situation or nicaragua situation with manuel noriega um don't work as well manuel noriega um don't work as well manuel noriega um don't work as well when there when there when there are counter measures um that's not a are counter measures um that's not a are counter measures um that's not a question that's just an observation so question that's just an observation so question that's just an observation so let me let me let me let me ask you we're running out of time let me ask you we're running out of time let me ask you we're running out of time here i'm curious what was your favorite here i'm curious what was your favorite here i'm curious what was your favorite aspect of the book that when aspect of the book that when aspect of the book that when that when you wrote it you've thought that when you wrote it you've thought that when you wrote it you've thought about it several times since and you about it several times since and you about it several times since and you keep going back to is there anything in keep going back to is there anything in keep going back to is there anything in there that just keeps striking you there that just keeps striking you there that just keeps striking you um well actually before i ask a question um well actually before i ask a question um well actually before i ask a question i wanted to i wanted to i wanted to i wanted to respond to your comment i wanted to respond to your comment i wanted to respond to your comment because i think you're because i think you're because i think you're yeah comment it was no question sure yeah comment it was no question sure yeah comment it was no question sure no no it's really really really really no no it's really really really really no no it's really really really really on point on point on point i mean think about the application of i mean think about the application of i mean think about the application of artificial intelligence artificial intelligence artificial intelligence systems towards oh yeah i mean that's systems towards oh yeah i mean that's systems towards oh yeah i mean that's there is out there there is out there there is out there okay that's number one like you don't okay that's number one like you don't okay that's number one like you don't think that's gonna render an entire think that's gonna render an entire think that's gonna render an entire way of thinking about war obsolete way of thinking about war obsolete way of thinking about war obsolete overnight overnight overnight what if china builds in you know what if china builds in you know what if china builds in you know uh full-scale ai into their uh full-scale ai into their uh full-scale ai into their uh military systems you know no human in uh military systems you know no human in uh military systems you know no human in the loop the loop the loop ai you you throw all of your deterrence ai you you throw all of your deterrence ai you you throw all of your deterrence theory out the window at that point

theory out the window at that point theory out the window at that point um so that would be yeah i think we are um so that would be yeah i think we are um so that would be yeah i think we are absolutely on the cusp of another absolutely on the cusp of another absolutely on the cusp of another kind of revolution like that um kind of revolution like that um kind of revolution like that um but answer what do i return to i but answer what do i return to i but answer what do i return to i returned to just tip it to the fact these guys had a just tip it to the fact these guys had a dream dream dream you know they're not in a profession you know they're not in a profession you know they're not in a profession that we think of as full of that we think of as full of that we think of as full of dreamers you don't think of military dreamers you don't think of military dreamers you don't think of military guys as being guys as being guys as being attached to some romantic notion um attached to some romantic notion um attached to some romantic notion um and it's useful to be reminded that in and it's useful to be reminded that in and it's useful to be reminded that in fact that happens all the time fact that happens all the time fact that happens all the time that that world is as full of people who that that world is as full of people who that that world is as full of people who um are willing to kind of um are willing to kind of um are willing to kind of um think boldly and imaginatively and um think boldly and imaginatively and um think boldly and imaginatively and creatively and courageously creatively and courageously creatively and courageously about the way they do what they do you about the way they do what they do you about the way they do what they do you know i i think it's a know i i think it's a know i i think it's a common and damaging and insulting this common and damaging and insulting this common and damaging and insulting this conception conception conception that military people are bloodthirsty that military people are bloodthirsty that military people are bloodthirsty and are kind of you know lack and are kind of you know lack and are kind of you know lack humanity on some level that that's why humanity on some level that that's why humanity on some level that that's why they're doing the job they do they're doing the job they do they're doing the job they do i think the opposite is true that that's i think the opposite is true that that's i think the opposite is true that that's a world that's filled a world that's filled a world that's filled with people who are as passionate about with people who are as passionate about with people who are as passionate about their their their kind of moral commitments as anyone kind of moral commitments as anyone kind of moral commitments as anyone else's as school teachers or else's as school teachers or else's as school teachers or as pastors or you know it's as pastors or you know it's as pastors or you know it's um they have just chosen to operate in a um they have just chosen to operate in a um they have just chosen to operate in a maybe they have because of those moral maybe they have because of those moral maybe they have because of those moral commitments

commitments commitments have chosen to operate in the world that have chosen to operate in the world that have chosen to operate in the world that they feel badly needs them they feel badly needs them they feel badly needs them right that was the thing about the right that was the thing about the right that was the thing about the bomber mafia they looked at the military bomber mafia they looked at the military bomber mafia they looked at the military world and they said they need us world and they said they need us world and they said they need us they need people who consider the kind they need people who consider the kind they need people who consider the kind of broader of broader of broader picture here and that's still true today picture here and that's still true today picture here and that's still true today that is still true today that is still true today that is still true today you know when you mention that i can't you know when you mention that i can't you know when you mention that i can't help but think of the whole civilian help but think of the whole civilian help but think of the whole civilian slash scientific apparatus that arose slash scientific apparatus that arose slash scientific apparatus that arose after the second world war it seemed after the second world war it seemed after the second world war it seemed like it didn't exist like it didn't exist like it didn't exist that these that these groups that would that these that these groups that would that these that these groups that would later become like to name just later become like to name just later become like to name just one like the rand group right um that one like the rand group right um that one like the rand group right um that those were only within military circles those were only within military circles those were only within military circles back before the second world war and back before the second world war and back before the second world war and then it became then it became then it became almost a giant um i mean today we have almost a giant um i mean today we have almost a giant um i mean today we have darpa and all those kind of things i darpa and all those kind of things i darpa and all those kind of things i mean to me that seems almost like the mean to me that seems almost like the mean to me that seems almost like the inheritors of these small group of inheritors of these small group of inheritors of these small group of theorists that were once upon a time theorists that were once upon a time theorists that were once upon a time um just part of the little military um just part of the little military um just part of the little military cabal cabal cabal does it seem like they're natural does it seem like they're natural does it seem like they're natural inheritors to that yeah it's interesting inheritors to that yeah it's interesting inheritors to that yeah it's interesting you know it's funny it's like there's a you know it's funny it's like there's a you know it's funny it's like there's a kind of kind of kind of i think it's legitimate to say that i think it's legitimate to say that i think it's legitimate to say that there's a period in there's a period in there's a period in um modern warfare when the military is um modern warfare when the military is um modern warfare when the military is not not not home to the best and the brightest i home to the best and the brightest i home to the best and the brightest i mean you look at the mean you look at the mean you look at the british military leadership in the first british military leadership in the first british military leadership in the first world war some of the divorce previous world war some of the divorce previous world war some of the divorce previous that that that these are not genie they're not the these are not genie they're not the these are not genie they're not the geniuses aren't geniuses aren't geniuses aren't the generals there's some pretty the generals there's some pretty the generals there's some pretty des it's a pretty dissaltery group um des it's a pretty dissaltery group um des it's a pretty dissaltery group um the if you were if you were a brilliant the if you were if you were a brilliant the if you were if you were a brilliant young

young young mind in england in 1914 you did not mind in england in 1914 you did not mind in england in 1914 you did not go into the army you went to oxford and go into the army you went to oxford and go into the army you went to oxford and you studied physics or whatever you did you studied physics or whatever you did you studied physics or whatever you did um and what happens is that um and what happens is that um and what happens is that world war ii in particular makes the world war ii in particular makes the world war ii in particular makes the military military military shape again for the for the shape again for the for the shape again for the for the intellectually curious intellectually curious intellectually curious and for the and then with in the and for the and then with in the and for the and then with in the post-war post-war post-war world you know organizations like rand world you know organizations like rand world you know organizations like rand it goes one step further and you you it goes one step further and you you it goes one step further and you you have legit have legit have legit geniuses who are joining you know the geniuses who are joining you know the geniuses who are joining you know the kind of kind of kind of broader war effort um you know the rand broader war effort um you know the rand broader war effort um you know the rand guys are the smartest people in the room guys are the smartest people in the room guys are the smartest people in the room that's the whole point right that's the whole point right that's the whole point right that's it that's super interesting to me that's it that's super interesting to me that's it that's super interesting to me um that kind of revolution where um that kind of revolution where um that kind of revolution where and i think it's appropriate that and i think it's appropriate that and i think it's appropriate that um to find its mind some of the finest um to find its mind some of the finest um to find its mind some of the finest minds minds minds you know reside in the military world you know reside in the military world you know reside in the military world because this war is just about the because this war is just about the because this war is just about the hardest problem we have to tackle as a hardest problem we have to tackle as a hardest problem we have to tackle as a society society society what did fred kaplan call those people what did fred kaplan call those people what did fred kaplan call those people the wizards of armageddon right the wizards of armageddon right the wizards of armageddon right i love that book i read that book when i i love that book i read that book when i i love that book i read that book when i was reporting mine was reporting mine was reporting mine i was like oh my i couldn't i was like i was like oh my i couldn't i was like i was like oh my i couldn't i was like it was just a delight it was just a delight it was just a delight that broke all this great book just that broke all this great book just that broke all this great book just reading about those guys when they were reading about those guys when they were reading about those guys when they were kids and the you know the re the kids and the you know the re the kids and the you know the re the remembering the phone books and so i remembering the phone books and so i remembering the phone books and so i mean these guys mean these guys mean these guys they were crazy intelligence so how can they were crazy intelligence so how can they were crazy intelligence so how can people get their hands on this it's a people get their hands on this it's a people get their hands on this it's a little unusual so i read the pdf but little unusual so i read the pdf but little unusual so i read the pdf but this is an audio book right this is an audio book right this is an audio book right so there's two things there is you can so there's two things there is you can so there's two things there is you can get the audiobook just by going to

get the audiobook just by going to get the audiobook just by going to bombermafia.com and you can download it bombermafia.com and you can download it bombermafia.com and you can download it directly from my company which is called directly from my company which is called directly from my company which is called pushkin industries pushkin industries pushkin industries um there's also a print version um um there's also a print version um um there's also a print version um published by little brown published by little brown published by little brown that'll be available wherever books are that'll be available wherever books are that'll be available wherever books are available starting april 27th so available starting april 27th so available starting april 27th so i um both are wonderful experiences the i um both are wonderful experiences the i um both are wonderful experiences the audiobook is not a normal audiobook it audiobook is not a normal audiobook it audiobook is not a normal audiobook it is not me reading the book is not me reading the book is not me reading the book it is a fully produced so you know when it is a fully produced so you know when it is a fully produced so you know when second podcast when when we talk about second podcast when when we talk about second podcast when when we talk about curtis to may curtis to may curtis to may you hear curtis clement when we talk you hear curtis clement when we talk you hear curtis clement when we talk about hayward hansel you hear howard about hayward hansel you hear howard about hayward hansel you hear howard hansel when we talk about the bombing of hansel when we talk about the bombing of hansel when we talk about the bombing of tokyo you hear the bombing of tokyo i tokyo you hear the bombing of tokyo i tokyo you hear the bombing of tokyo i mean it's a mean it's a mean it's a full-on you know everyone i talk to you full-on you know everyone i talk to you full-on you know everyone i talk to you will will will hear their voice so it's a really uh hear their voice so it's a really uh hear their voice so it's a really uh quite a remarkable um quite a remarkable um quite a remarkable um if you're into audiobooks i would i if you're into audiobooks i would i if you're into audiobooks i would i would definitely recommend you take that would definitely recommend you take that would definitely recommend you take that route here route here route here what a fantastic way to approach it uh what a fantastic way to approach it uh what a fantastic way to approach it uh malcolm gladwell thank you so much for malcolm gladwell thank you so much for malcolm gladwell thank you so much for coming on the program i wish you a ton coming on the program i wish you a ton coming on the program i wish you a ton of success with this latest book of of success with this latest book of of success with this latest book of yours yours yours uh it sucked me right in i had a great uh it sucked me right in i had a great uh it sucked me right in i had a great time reading it and it's as you pointed time reading it and it's as you pointed time reading it and it's as you pointed out one of those subjects that out one of those subjects that out one of those subjects that is truly worth a little contemplation on is truly worth a little contemplation on is truly worth a little contemplation on all of our parts because all of our parts because all of our parts because what's the old line from was it leon what's the old line from was it leon what's the old line from was it leon trotsky you may not be interested in war trotsky you may not be interested in war trotsky you may not be interested in war but war is interested in you but war is interested in you but war is interested in you yeah yeah no thank you so much and i yeah yeah no thank you so much and i yeah yeah no thank you so much and i have to say i should have to say i should have to say i should i'd be remiss if i did not say that um i i'd be remiss if i did not say that um i i'd be remiss if i did not say that um i am one of your biggest fans so this is a am one of your biggest fans so this is a am one of your biggest fans so this is a a thrill and a half to be invited on the a thrill and a half to be invited on the a thrill and a half to be invited on the i kind of couldn't believe it when i saw i kind of couldn't believe it when i saw i kind of couldn't believe it when i saw i was like wait a second i was like wait a second i was like wait a second i get to go i that's like that so i'm i get to go i that's like that so i'm i get to go i that's like that so i'm i'm over the moon so i'm thank you so i'm over the moon so i'm thank you so i'm over the moon so i'm thank you so much for inviting me much for inviting me much for inviting me what's up what's so strange is that to

what's up what's so strange is that to what's up what's so strange is that to be a history podcaster be a history podcaster be a history podcaster and to have colleagues who are history and to have colleagues who are history and to have colleagues who are history podcasters i i remember so well trying podcasters i i remember so well trying podcasters i i remember so well trying to explain to people what a podcast to explain to people what a podcast to explain to people what a podcast was and now now we have history was and now now we have history was and now now we have history podcaster um podcaster um podcaster um colleagues so thank you so much for colleagues so thank you so much for colleagues so thank you so much for coming on the program your success is uh coming on the program your success is uh coming on the program your success is uh is exhilarating for the whole genre that was a lot of fun my thanks to that was a lot of fun my thanks to malcolm gladwell for coming on the malcolm gladwell for coming on the malcolm gladwell for coming on the program program program you know he's he's one of the few people you know he's he's one of the few people you know he's he's one of the few people that could have offered to come on that that could have offered to come on that that could have offered to come on that would have made me talk about a second would have made me talk about a second would have made me talk about a second world war topic when that's all we've world war topic when that's all we've world war topic when that's all we've been talking about for a long time now been talking about for a long time now been talking about for a long time now but the book's great but the book's great but the book's great the bomber mafia um he writes if you get the bomber mafia um he writes if you get the bomber mafia um he writes if you get the text version he's got a very clear the text version he's got a very clear the text version he's got a very clear style style style and i kind of noticed he writes like he and i kind of noticed he writes like he and i kind of noticed he writes like he speaks which for me speaks which for me speaks which for me made the story that much more engrossing made the story that much more engrossing made the story that much more engrossing knowing what i know now though i would knowing what i know now though i would knowing what i know now though i would have downloaded the audiobook version have downloaded the audiobook version have downloaded the audiobook version and you should too cause with the and you should too cause with the and you should too cause with the natural sound and the speeches i mean natural sound and the speeches i mean natural sound and the speeches i mean that's the way to go be like his podcast that's the way to go be like his podcast that's the way to go be like his podcast right you want to do that right you want to do that right you want to do that there's a reason it's so popular so there's a reason it's so popular so there's a reason it's so popular so thanks to malcolm gladwell for coming on thanks to malcolm gladwell for coming on thanks to malcolm gladwell for coming on the show the show the show uh as far as we go we're still working uh as far as we go we're still working uh as far as we go we're still working on it folks that's all i can on it folks that's all i can on it folks that's all i can do all i can ever say we're still do all i can ever say we're still do all i can ever say we're still working on it it's going to be a long working on it it's going to be a long working on it it's going to be a long one though i can tell you that i can one though i can tell you that i can one though i can tell you that i can tell already tell already tell already um and we'll maybe try to get some more um and we'll maybe try to get some more um and we'll maybe try to get some more interview shows out there's something interview shows out there's something interview shows out there's something out in the interim like this out in the interim like this out in the interim like this um the interview shows are easy uh the um the interview shows are easy uh the um the interview shows are easy uh the ones that we want to do sometimes to mix ones that we want to do sometimes to mix ones that we want to do sometimes to mix in with them are like mini hardcore in with them are like mini hardcore in with them are like mini hardcore history shows and i find that history shows and i find that history shows and i find that i end up stopping work on the main show i end up stopping work on the main show i end up stopping work on the main show if i do that so i know you'd all rather if i do that so i know you'd all rather if i do that so i know you'd all rather have me get the big show out so i'm have me get the big show out so i'm have me get the big show out so i'm working on that working on that working on that we'll see about setting up some more we'll see about setting up some more we'll see about setting up some more interviews thank you for your patience

interviews thank you for your patience interviews thank you for your patience your support your support your support and um you know everything else and um you know everything else and um you know everything else always so grateful i'll hopefully talk always so grateful i'll hopefully talk always so grateful i'll hopefully talk to you soon