EP16 Powers Thrones and Dan Jones

it's hardcore history it's hardcore history [Music] so i am a dan jones fan so i am a dan jones fan and uh many of you are too no doubt and uh many of you are too no doubt and uh many of you are too no doubt he's one of our finest writers of he's one of our finest writers of he's one of our finest writers of history history history for the period in the middle ages you for the period in the middle ages you for the period in the middle ages you know the fall of rome to the renaissance know the fall of rome to the renaissance know the fall of rome to the renaissance a lot of stuff that made up a lot of stuff that made up a lot of stuff that made up what a lot of us grew up with loving i what a lot of us grew up with loving i what a lot of us grew up with loving i mean mean mean knights in shining armor crusades norman knights in shining armor crusades norman knights in shining armor crusades norman saxons i mean saxons i mean saxons i mean this is pretty par for the course for a this is pretty par for the course for a this is pretty par for the course for a lot of lot of lot of history fans and um history fans and um history fans and um if that's your jam if that's your jam if that's your jam then you need to pick up dan jones's new then you need to pick up dan jones's new then you need to pick up dan jones's new book powers and thrones he's with us book powers and thrones he's with us book powers and thrones he's with us today to talk about it but uh but you've today to talk about it but uh but you've today to talk about it but uh but you've probably already read his stuff the probably already read his stuff the probably already read his stuff the plantagenets was great plantagenets was great plantagenets was great the wars of the roses crusaders the the wars of the roses crusaders the the wars of the roses crusaders the templars magna carta templars magna carta templars magna carta the book covers the entire period from the book covers the entire period from the book covers the entire period from the fall of rome to the renaissance in the fall of rome to the renaissance in the fall of rome to the renaissance in the european middle eastern north the european middle eastern north the european middle eastern north african sort of zone african sort of zone african sort of zone 656 pages i looked it up covering a 656 pages i looked it up covering a 656 pages i looked it up covering a thousand years that's audacious isn't it thousand years that's audacious isn't it thousand years that's audacious isn't it but just like there's a lot of but just like there's a lot of but just like there's a lot of interesting stuff you can glean from a interesting stuff you can glean from a interesting stuff you can glean from a very narrowly focused very narrowly focused very narrowly focused you know targeted work on a on a small you know targeted work on a on a small you know targeted work on a on a small chunk of history so you can chunk of history so you can chunk of history so you can really delve into it turn over every really delve into it turn over every really delve into it turn over every stone stone stone uh examine it to the nth degree there uh examine it to the nth degree there uh examine it to the nth degree there are advantages to doing the opposite are advantages to doing the opposite are advantages to doing the opposite you get much larger sense of how you get much larger sense of how you get much larger sense of how cultures are working together and cultures are working together and cultures are working together and pinging off each other larger sense of pinging off each other larger sense of pinging off each other larger sense of trends impacting over time right they

trends impacting over time right they trends impacting over time right they all have their place and and jones's all have their place and and jones's all have their place and and jones's book is one of those that um if you book is one of those that um if you book is one of those that um if you actually retained what's in it actually retained what's in it actually retained what's in it it would fill in your foundational it would fill in your foundational it would fill in your foundational knowledge base for a huge chunk of time knowledge base for a huge chunk of time knowledge base for a huge chunk of time and a large important region and a large important region and a large important region geographically speaking geographically speaking geographically speaking it's a page turner there's a lot of it's a page turner there's a lot of it's a page turner there's a lot of historical figures that we've all fallen historical figures that we've all fallen historical figures that we've all fallen in love with that fall into in love with that fall into in love with that fall into a book like this a book like this a book like this what i love about it though is is at the what i love about it though is is at the what i love about it though is is at the same time that it's comforting if you've same time that it's comforting if you've same time that it's comforting if you've always been interested in this stuff to always been interested in this stuff to always been interested in this stuff to read this book it's comforting for me read this book it's comforting for me read this book it's comforting for me anyway he's got all the new stuff right anyway he's got all the new stuff right anyway he's got all the new stuff right all the new discoveries all the all the new discoveries all the all the new discoveries all the clarifications all the overturned myths clarifications all the overturned myths clarifications all the overturned myths we've talked before about how we've talked before about how we've talked before about how interesting it is now interesting it is now interesting it is now that the area of historical knowledge that the area of historical knowledge that the area of historical knowledge is aided not just by historians and is aided not just by historians and is aided not just by historians and archaeologists the people that have archaeologists the people that have archaeologists the people that have always sort of had that as their purview always sort of had that as their purview always sort of had that as their purview but tons of other scientific disciplines but tons of other scientific disciplines but tons of other scientific disciplines that working with these people are that working with these people are that working with these people are making the kinds of discoveries and making the kinds of discoveries and making the kinds of discoveries and datings possible that we never could datings possible that we never could datings possible that we never could have imagined i mean just the other day have imagined i mean just the other day have imagined i mean just the other day there was a story and you may have seen there was a story and you may have seen there was a story and you may have seen it it it confirming confirming confirming certainly what many of us had already certainly what many of us had already certainly what many of us had already known that the vikings had arrived in known that the vikings had arrived in known that the vikings had arrived in the americas but but coming up with a the americas but but coming up with a the americas but but coming up with a pretty solid date for it and they they pretty solid date for it and they they pretty solid date for it and they they said 10 21 said 10 21 said 10 21 you know 1021 adce you know 1021 adce you know 1021 adce and when you read the story of how they and when you read the story of how they and when you read the story of how they came up with the date the radiologists came up with the date the radiologists came up with the date the radiologists that are involved the climatologists that are involved the climatologists that are involved the climatologists that are involved i mean it is so many that are involved i mean it is so many that are involved i mean it is so many um experts from so many varied fields um experts from so many varied fields um experts from so many varied fields working together to get us this working together to get us this working together to get us this information anyway it's fascinating it's

information anyway it's fascinating it's information anyway it's fascinating it's it's a part of what makes the modern it's a part of what makes the modern it's a part of what makes the modern historical uh study so interesting to historical uh study so interesting to historical uh study so interesting to people you know who've been reading the people you know who've been reading the people you know who've been reading the books forever but all of a sudden you books forever but all of a sudden you books forever but all of a sudden you have new stuff on old stories right who have new stuff on old stories right who have new stuff on old stories right who doesn't love that and powers and thrones doesn't love that and powers and thrones doesn't love that and powers and thrones has a bunch of those or you're going oh has a bunch of those or you're going oh has a bunch of those or you're going oh really so this major invasion happened really so this major invasion happened really so this major invasion happened because of a climate change that they because of a climate change that they because of a climate change that they can now prove was going on i mean it's can now prove was going on i mean it's can now prove was going on i mean it's that kind of thing so i loved it um i that kind of thing so i loved it um i that kind of thing so i loved it um i think you'll enjoy it too and if you're think you'll enjoy it too and if you're think you'll enjoy it too and if you're a dan jones fan i don't have to tell you a dan jones fan i don't have to tell you a dan jones fan i don't have to tell you uh what he writes are sort of page uh what he writes are sort of page uh what he writes are sort of page turners uh in in terms of being able to turners uh in in terms of being able to turners uh in in terms of being able to pick out really interesting things uh pick out really interesting things uh pick out really interesting things uh it's it's fabulous and so is he and he's it's it's fabulous and so is he and he's it's it's fabulous and so is he and he's on the show today um and so without on the show today um and so without on the show today um and so without further ado and i hope you like this but further ado and i hope you like this but further ado and i hope you like this but i'm just sort of fan going out it's more i'm just sort of fan going out it's more i'm just sort of fan going out it's more for me than for you for me than for you for me than for you but you know you guys pay the bills but you know you guys pay the bills but you know you guys pay the bills around here so i'll let you listen in around here so i'll let you listen in around here so i'll let you listen in uh dan jones ladies and gentlemen the first thing i want to say is that the first thing i want to say is that this book this book this book you know i think i tried to describe it you know i think i tried to describe it you know i think i tried to describe it once as comfort food for a history fan once as comfort food for a history fan once as comfort food for a history fan like yours truly because i grew up like yours truly because i grew up like yours truly because i grew up reading stuff like this but what i love reading stuff like this but what i love reading stuff like this but what i love about your book is it incorporates all about your book is it incorporates all about your book is it incorporates all these favorite topics of mine with all these favorite topics of mine with all these favorite topics of mine with all the latest stuff right the the latest the latest stuff right the the latest the latest stuff right the the latest evidence and and theories and i mean i evidence and and theories and i mean i evidence and and theories and i mean i remember for example when you got to the remember for example when you got to the remember for example when you got to the part part part about the famous uh arrival of the huns about the famous uh arrival of the huns about the famous uh arrival of the huns into the roman world and you threw the into the roman world and you threw the into the roman world and you threw the the climate element in there and talked the climate element in there and talked the climate element in there and talked about is it is it called a killian about is it is it called a killian about is it is it called a killian juniper plant or whatever that they used juniper plant or whatever that they used juniper plant or whatever that they used for climate dating i was absolutely for climate dating i was absolutely for climate dating i was absolutely enthralled so start off i mean there's a enthralled so start off i mean there's a enthralled so start off i mean there's a lot of people that think that history is

lot of people that think that history is lot of people that think that history is sort of a set thing and because once you sort of a set thing and because once you sort of a set thing and because once you know what happens nothing changes but know what happens nothing changes but know what happens nothing changes but talk to me about talk to me about talk to me about you know like i said a guy yours truly i you know like i said a guy yours truly i you know like i said a guy yours truly i was reading this stuff at 14 years old was reading this stuff at 14 years old was reading this stuff at 14 years old 1312 and there's so much new stuff in a 1312 and there's so much new stuff in a 1312 and there's so much new stuff in a story that i thought i knew story that i thought i knew story that i thought i knew um that's pretty normal though isn't it um that's pretty normal though isn't it um that's pretty normal though isn't it i mean we're always updating stuff i mean we're always updating stuff i mean we're always updating stuff aren't we aren't we aren't we well firstly i mean thank you for those well firstly i mean thank you for those well firstly i mean thank you for those kind comments and i'm glad it did like kind comments and i'm glad it did like kind comments and i'm glad it did like the book reminded you of of those the book reminded you of of those the book reminded you of of those classic histories that you like to read classic histories that you like to read classic histories that you like to read because i like to read those histories because i like to read those histories because i like to read those histories too and i i wanted to to create a book too and i i wanted to to create a book too and i i wanted to to create a book that had that feel like you want to turn that had that feel like you want to turn that had that feel like you want to turn the pages like i could give this to an the pages like i could give this to an the pages like i could give this to an intelligent 13 year old and get them intelligent 13 year old and get them intelligent 13 year old and get them like buzzed on medieval history like buzzed on medieval history like buzzed on medieval history um but um but um but if we're talking about if we're talking about if we're talking about i suppose we're going pretty deep here i suppose we're going pretty deep here i suppose we're going pretty deep here early on like what is history and early on like what is history and early on like what is history and history is a dialogue i think between history is a dialogue i think between history is a dialogue i think between the past and present although in a book the past and present although in a book the past and present although in a book like like like i've just written it's narrative it's i've just written it's narrative it's i've just written it's narrative it's chronological it starts at the beginning chronological it starts at the beginning chronological it starts at the beginning of the middle ages and follows the story of the middle ages and follows the story of the middle ages and follows the story through to the end through to the end through to the end there's always new research there's always new research there's always new research going on in lots of different areas going on in lots of different areas going on in lots of different areas there's always and even more than that there's always and even more than that there's always and even more than that every generation has its own every generation has its own every generation has its own preoccupations preoccupations preoccupations it seeks to it seeks to it seeks to somehow see reflected or somehow see reflected or somehow see reflected or uh or see the foundations of them in the uh or see the foundations of them in the uh or see the foundations of them in the past so that's why we can write new past so that's why we can write new past so that's why we can write new histories of be the tudor dynasty the histories of be the tudor dynasty the histories of be the tudor dynasty the plantagenet dynasty the second world war plantagenet dynasty the second world war plantagenet dynasty the second world war you know as you know the mongol

you know as you know the mongol you know as you know the mongol conquest or whatever each generation conquest or whatever each generation conquest or whatever each generation because there's there's always new because there's there's always new because there's there's always new research to draw on but even more than research to draw on but even more than research to draw on but even more than that there's new that there's new that there's new there's new societal preoccupations to there's new societal preoccupations to there's new societal preoccupations to reflect you know what so one of those reflect you know what so one of those reflect you know what so one of those classic books that classic books that classic books that um that you've referenced i don't know i um that you've referenced i don't know i um that you've referenced i don't know i mean tell me if you enjoyed this book as mean tell me if you enjoyed this book as mean tell me if you enjoyed this book as well when you were growing up was uh well when you were growing up was uh well when you were growing up was uh barbara tupman's a distant mirror oh barbara tupman's a distant mirror oh barbara tupman's a distant mirror oh sure sure have it up in the bookshelf sure sure have it up in the bookshelf sure sure have it up in the bookshelf yeah i can see it from here i mean yeah i can see it from here i mean yeah i can see it from here i mean that's that's that's a great book that's that's that's that's a great book that's that's that's that's a great book that's that's a book that takes the for the that's a book that takes the for the that's a book that takes the for the calamitous 14th century calamitous 14th century calamitous 14th century and it's written in i think 1974 and it's written in i think 1974 and it's written in i think 1974 and uses the the 14th century as as the and uses the the 14th century as as the and uses the the 14th century as as the title suggests a distant mirror on the title suggests a distant mirror on the title suggests a distant mirror on the 20th another time of war and uh 20th another time of war and uh 20th another time of war and uh instability in europe and plague and instability in europe and plague and instability in europe and plague and social turmoil social turmoil social turmoil and and and when i started writing powers and when i started writing powers and when i started writing powers and thrones i set out to write this history thrones i set out to write this history thrones i set out to write this history of the middle ages i thought how do we of the middle ages i thought how do we of the middle ages i thought how do we do that for the 21st century how do we do that for the 21st century how do we do that for the 21st century how do we look at the middle ages with with a look at the middle ages with with a look at the middle ages with with a sense of what matters to us today and sense of what matters to us today and sense of what matters to us today and and and thereby create a form of empathy and and thereby create a form of empathy and and thereby create a form of empathy in the mind of the in the mind of the in the mind of the the reader and so when i when i tackled the reader and so when i when i tackled the reader and so when i when i tackled the middle ages i was looking for things the middle ages i was looking for things the middle ages i was looking for things that i actually had a list of things i that i actually had a list of things i that i actually had a list of things i thought were were going to be important thought were were going to be important thought were were going to be important were already important we're going to were already important we're going to were already important we're going to become more important as become more important as become more important as the first half of the 21st century the first half of the 21st century the first half of the 21st century went on and that list was went on and that list was went on and that list was climate change mass migration pandemic climate change mass migration pandemic climate change mass migration pandemic disease disease disease technological change and global networks technological change and global networks technological change and global networks so as i was putting together this new

so as i was putting together this new so as i was putting together this new history of the middle ages i didn't seek history of the middle ages i didn't seek history of the middle ages i didn't seek to just to just to just only look at those things but i thought only look at those things but i thought only look at those things but i thought if if we can lift those out of the if if we can lift those out of the if if we can lift those out of the research research research lift those out of the storytelling then lift those out of the storytelling then lift those out of the storytelling then this will make the middle ages somehow this will make the middle ages somehow this will make the middle ages somehow seem seem seem approachable to this you know be an approachable to this you know be an approachable to this you know be an intelligent 13 year old reading history intelligent 13 year old reading history intelligent 13 year old reading history for the first time or for the first time or for the first time or you know someone of our kind of you know someone of our kind of you know someone of our kind of generation reading history for the 15th generation reading history for the 15th generation reading history for the 15th time time time that's the kind that's the big that's the kind that's the big that's the kind that's the big philosophy of what i've been doing philosophy of what i've been doing philosophy of what i've been doing anyway there's a line i like from an anyway there's a line i like from an anyway there's a line i like from an ohio state university historian named ohio state university historian named ohio state university historian named robert c davis who says history is often robert c davis who says history is often robert c davis who says history is often is not our present politics projected on is not our present politics projected on is not our present politics projected on to the past to the past to the past and that makes it sound artificial but and that makes it sound artificial but and that makes it sound artificial but the way i look at it is like when i'm the way i look at it is like when i'm the way i look at it is like when i'm reading your book and you're you're reading your book and you're you're reading your book and you're you're referencing climate change referencing climate change referencing climate change tipping off certain major historical tipping off certain major historical tipping off certain major historical events i recall that when i was younger events i recall that when i was younger events i recall that when i was younger they still talked about climate change they still talked about climate change they still talked about climate change doing this but because doing this but because doing this but because we understand and are living through we understand and are living through we understand and are living through more climate change than we were when i more climate change than we were when i more climate change than we were when i was younger i think we get it better if was younger i think we get it better if was younger i think we get it better if that makes sense like you had talked that makes sense like you had talked that makes sense like you had talked about like globalized networks well you about like globalized networks well you about like globalized networks well you know you understood that in 1982 also know you understood that in 1982 also know you understood that in 1982 also but boy you understand it's so much but boy you understand it's so much but boy you understand it's so much better now when we live in it and it's better now when we live in it and it's better now when we live in it and it's so in your face so i think that's just so in your face so i think that's just so in your face so i think that's just reflective of our of a better reflective of our of a better reflective of our of a better understanding that we have of how those understanding that we have of how those understanding that we have of how those things go now in our world and then it's things go now in our world and then it's things go now in our world and then it's easier to imagine how they might have easier to imagine how they might have easier to imagine how they might have impacted an earlier world impacted an earlier world impacted an earlier world yeah and i think that yeah and i think that yeah and i think that his history as you know his history as you know his history as you know well goes through like trends yeah in well goes through like trends yeah in well goes through like trends yeah in terms of it's it's kind of

terms of it's it's kind of terms of it's it's kind of scholarly because it's a fashion yeah scholarly because it's a fashion yeah scholarly because it's a fashion yeah and some fashions right and sometimes and some fashions right and sometimes and some fashions right and sometimes that that that every so often someone will come along every so often someone will come along every so often someone will come along and say you know what history should be and say you know what history should be and say you know what history should be objective it should be about truth objective it should be about truth objective it should be about truth seeking and truth alone and the facts seeking and truth alone and the facts seeking and truth alone and the facts let's stick to the fact let's stick to the fact let's stick to the fact and that that will be fashionable for a and that that will be fashionable for a and that that will be fashionable for a little while and then some bright spark little while and then some bright spark little while and then some bright spark will go you know what will go you know what will go you know what there is there is there is you don't have to be a kind of french you don't have to be a kind of french you don't have to be a kind of french relativist philosopher relativist philosopher relativist philosopher to realize there is no objective truth to realize there is no objective truth to realize there is no objective truth there's there's there's there's perspectives you know the the there's perspectives you know the the there's perspectives you know the the relativity defines how we think about relativity defines how we think about relativity defines how we think about the world the world the world and uh so as a historian as i've gotten and uh so as a historian as i've gotten and uh so as a historian as i've gotten older and a bit more confident i suppose older and a bit more confident i suppose older and a bit more confident i suppose i've stopped um trying to i've stopped um trying to i've stopped um trying to shy away from this feeling that we shy away from this feeling that we shy away from this feeling that we or or or i've tried to avoid this feeling we i've tried to avoid this feeling we i've tried to avoid this feeling we shouldn't project our own concerns shouldn't project our own concerns shouldn't project our own concerns into the our study of the past because into the our study of the past because into the our study of the past because otherwise what's history for history's otherwise what's history for history's otherwise what's history for history's like about creating a like about creating a like about creating a context for the now and so it's it's not context for the now and so it's it's not context for the now and so it's it's not just inevitable it's natural and it's just inevitable it's natural and it's just inevitable it's natural and it's probably advisable that we take with us probably advisable that we take with us probably advisable that we take with us or as long as we acknowledge them we or as long as we acknowledge them we or as long as we acknowledge them we take with us our our preconceptions our take with us our our preconceptions our take with us our our preconceptions our prejudices our concerns our angst our prejudices our concerns our angst our prejudices our concerns our angst our worries when we go looking at the past worries when we go looking at the past worries when we go looking at the past man otherwise why are we bothering what man otherwise why are we bothering what man otherwise why are we bothering what are we going to learn from it if you are we going to learn from it if you are we going to learn from it if you know if it's not there to give us know if it's not there to give us know if it's not there to give us context somewhere now well and i think context somewhere now well and i think context somewhere now well and i think sometimes if you're not looking for sometimes if you're not looking for sometimes if you're not looking for something you don't find it and something you don't find it and something you don't find it and sometimes you don't know you should be sometimes you don't know you should be sometimes you don't know you should be looking for it and i think certain

looking for it and i think certain looking for it and i think certain things like i'll just reference the things like i'll just reference the things like i'll just reference the climate again because to me that was climate again because to me that was climate again because to me that was such an obvious i mean i remember as a such an obvious i mean i remember as a such an obvious i mean i remember as a kid hearing about the the the collapse kid hearing about the the the collapse kid hearing about the the the collapse of the bronze age and climate was one of of the bronze age and climate was one of of the bronze age and climate was one of the things that they threw out there the things that they threw out there the things that they threw out there drought starvation all those things drought starvation all those things drought starvation all those things but i think when you look at our but i think when you look at our but i think when you look at our situation say well what's our situation situation say well what's our situation situation say well what's our situation gonna be like climate wise in 100 years gonna be like climate wise in 100 years gonna be like climate wise in 100 years 200 years 200 years 200 years it helps sort of inform the listener to it helps sort of inform the listener to it helps sort of inform the listener to go back and go well gee how bad can it go back and go well gee how bad can it go back and go well gee how bad can it get and when was it bad and how did they get and when was it bad and how did they get and when was it bad and how did they deal with it how does an ancient society deal with it how does an ancient society deal with it how does an ancient society deal with some of the problems we're deal with some of the problems we're deal with some of the problems we're looking at so i mean i find it um not looking at so i mean i find it um not looking at so i mean i find it um not it's funny it's not just informative and it's funny it's not just informative and it's funny it's not just informative and useful as a comparative tool to me useful as a comparative tool to me useful as a comparative tool to me there's a little bit of something that's there's a little bit of something that's there's a little bit of something that's comforting i mean um you know if you've comforting i mean um you know if you've comforting i mean um you know if you've been through something before it's a been through something before it's a been through something before it's a little less scary um even if you've little less scary um even if you've little less scary um even if you've never been through it quite this way so never been through it quite this way so never been through it quite this way so let me talk because you have you have to let me talk because you have you have to let me talk because you have you have to frame something like this right if frame something like this right if frame something like this right if you're going to start a story in the in you're going to start a story in the in you're going to start a story in the in the middle as you do right the middle the middle as you do right the middle the middle as you do right the middle ages start in the middle you have to ages start in the middle you have to ages start in the middle you have to have sort of a touchstone right and the have sort of a touchstone right and the have sort of a touchstone right and the touchstone is the obvious one it's it's touchstone is the obvious one it's it's touchstone is the obvious one it's it's rome right so you have you have a rome right so you have you have a rome right so you have you have a civilization that starts as a city-state civilization that starts as a city-state civilization that starts as a city-state around the time you know the persians around the time you know the persians around the time you know the persians are invading greece right so the 500s are invading greece right so the 500s are invading greece right so the 500s it's really and then it goes through the it's really and then it goes through the it's really and then it goes through the republican period and then it goes republican period and then it goes republican period and then it goes through the imperial period and by the through the imperial period and by the through the imperial period and by the time the middle ages start you have this time the middle ages start you have this time the middle ages start you have this ancient and i mean i try to think about ancient and i mean i try to think about ancient and i mean i try to think about our modern world now which hasn't our modern world now which hasn't our modern world now which hasn't existed if you say the modern world existed if you say the modern world existed if you say the modern world starts in the renaissance or i mean we starts in the renaissance or i mean we starts in the renaissance or i mean we haven't existed now as long as rome was haven't existed now as long as rome was haven't existed now as long as rome was around as a around as a around as a as a as a as a as a civilization that could trace its as a civilization that could trace its as a civilization that could trace its roots back to something real roots back to something real roots back to something real um

um um explain a little bit on how this on what explain a little bit on how this on what explain a little bit on how this on what happens to a world when a touchstone happens to a world when a touchstone happens to a world when a touchstone that's that that's that that's that concrete goes away i yeah right so i yeah right so you're completely and utterly and 100 you're completely and utterly and 100 you're completely and utterly and 100 correct you know the framing of the correct you know the framing of the correct you know the framing of the middle ages has to be wrong you know middle ages has to be wrong you know middle ages has to be wrong you know that's that's uh that's how that's that's uh that's how that's that's uh that's how the when the middle ages first was the when the middle ages first was the when the middle ages first was conceived in the 16th century it was conceived in the 16th century it was conceived in the 16th century it was conceived as conceived as conceived as by definition the bit between the by definition the bit between the by definition the bit between the collapse of the roman empire collapse of the roman empire collapse of the roman empire in the west in the west in the west and the reformation and the the sort of and the reformation and the the sort of and the reformation and the the sort of the as you know it's a protestant idea the as you know it's a protestant idea the as you know it's a protestant idea but the scales falling away from the but the scales falling away from the but the scales falling away from the eyes of the of the great enlightened eyes of the of the great enlightened eyes of the of the great enlightened new christians of the 16th century new christians of the 16th century new christians of the 16th century and you're also and you're also and you're also absolutely right to say to point to this absolutely right to say to point to this absolutely right to say to point to this longevity of rome longevity of rome longevity of rome as compared to the longevity of our as compared to the longevity of our as compared to the longevity of our quite quite modern world if we go back quite quite modern world if we go back quite quite modern world if we go back to 16th century to date the origins of to 16th century to date the origins of to 16th century to date the origins of that that that what happens when an empire like that what happens when an empire like that what happens when an empire like that falls to bits i think falls to bits i think falls to bits i think is is is in one sense the answer is not very much in one sense the answer is not very much in one sense the answer is not very much because it happens relatively slowly now because it happens relatively slowly now because it happens relatively slowly now even though in the collapse of the even though in the collapse of the even though in the collapse of the western roman empire there are western roman empire there are western roman empire there are cataclysmic events cataclysmic events cataclysmic events the sack of rome by alaric and the goths the sack of rome by alaric and the goths the sack of rome by alaric and the goths in 410 a.d being the most obvious of in 410 a.d being the most obvious of in 410 a.d being the most obvious of them them them it's not like the western roman empire it's not like the western roman empire it's not like the western roman empire just falls to bits in one day just falls to bits in one day just falls to bits in one day i suppose here's a here's a a not very

i suppose here's a here's a a not very i suppose here's a here's a a not very encouraging dystopian read on the 21st encouraging dystopian read on the 21st encouraging dystopian read on the 21st century okay if we were to if we were to century okay if we were to if we were to century okay if we were to if we were to hypothesize and i personally hope this hypothesize and i personally hope this hypothesize and i personally hope this doesn't come to pass but if we were to doesn't come to pass but if we were to doesn't come to pass but if we were to hypothesize that we're seeing the end of hypothesize that we're seeing the end of hypothesize that we're seeing the end of the american the end of the united the american the end of the united the american the end of the united states as a superpower right states as a superpower right states as a superpower right and we're some future historians writing and we're some future historians writing and we're some future historians writing from the the 22nd century we might look from the the 22nd century we might look from the the 22nd century we might look back on say 9 11 back on say 9 11 back on say 9 11 as a spectacular uh you know assault on as a spectacular uh you know assault on as a spectacular uh you know assault on the heart of america that wrought uh the heart of america that wrought uh the heart of america that wrought uh great uh great uh great uh chaos and and tragic death and uh and chaos and and tragic death and uh and chaos and and tragic death and uh and was horrifying and shocking uh around was horrifying and shocking uh around was horrifying and shocking uh around the world but what we wouldn't say was the world but what we wouldn't say was the world but what we wouldn't say was and at that moment the amer you know and at that moment the amer you know and at that moment the amer you know america ceased to be a superpower would america ceased to be a superpower would america ceased to be a superpower would say that was that that was some say that was that that was some say that was that that was some that was some crazy that was some crazy that was some crazy you know there were there were crazy you know there were there were crazy you know there were there were crazy repercussions to that uh that one event repercussions to that uh that one event repercussions to that uh that one event but but but to everybody who lived in the 20 years to everybody who lived in the 20 years to everybody who lived in the 20 years subsequently it didn't really look like subsequently it didn't really look like subsequently it didn't really look like america collapsed it okay let's hope america collapsed it okay let's hope america collapsed it okay let's hope that's a dystopian uh sort of uh that's a dystopian uh sort of uh that's a dystopian uh sort of uh conjecture on my part but i think you conjecture on my part but i think you conjecture on my part but i think you see what i'm saying so i think if we if see what i'm saying so i think if we if see what i'm saying so i think if we if we project that idea back to the we project that idea back to the we project that idea back to the collapse of rome collapse of rome collapse of rome there were big moments there were big moments there were big moments such as such as such as well rome's being sacked by alex or i well rome's being sacked by alex or i well rome's being sacked by alex or i don't know i'm talking to you from the don't know i'm talking to you from the don't know i'm talking to you from the uk uh britannia being sort of uk uh britannia being sort of uk uh britannia being sort of um jettisoned like booted off into um jettisoned like booted off into um jettisoned like booted off into into into space into into space into into space from uh from the roman empire these in

from uh from the roman empire these in from uh from the roman empire these in retrospect look like huge moments but on retrospect look like huge moments but on retrospect look like huge moments but on the other hand i think if you were the other hand i think if you were the other hand i think if you were living through it there'd just been a living through it there'd just been a living through it there'd just been a time of rising instability time of rising instability time of rising instability uh in different places and at different uh in different places and at different uh in different places and at different times times times which over the course of several which over the course of several which over the course of several generations added up to the final generations added up to the final generations added up to the final collapse of the western roman empire collapse of the western roman empire collapse of the western roman empire but you know even if we think about the but you know even if we think about the but you know even if we think about the distance in time between 410 a.d distance in time between 410 a.d distance in time between 410 a.d sac of rome and 476 you know the last sac of rome and 476 you know the last sac of rome and 476 you know the last recognized western roman empire that's recognized western roman empire that's recognized western roman empire that's 66 years like in terms of human 66 years like in terms of human 66 years like in terms of human lifespans lifespans lifespans of any age that's that's quite a long of any age that's that's quite a long of any age that's that's quite a long time so it's a time so it's a time so it's a what am i looking what's the analogy i'm what am i looking what's the analogy i'm what am i looking what's the analogy i'm looking for it's it's a boiling of the looking for it's it's a boiling of the looking for it's it's a boiling of the frog i suppose does that make sense frog i suppose does that make sense frog i suppose does that make sense absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely no it makes sense i always describe it no it makes sense i always describe it no it makes sense i always describe it as um you know being cut off from the as um you know being cut off from the as um you know being cut off from the equivalent of the global information equivalent of the global information equivalent of the global information super highway if you're britain when super highway if you're britain when super highway if you're britain when when uh rome says you're on your own and when uh rome says you're on your own and when uh rome says you're on your own and whatnot but as many historians have whatnot but as many historians have whatnot but as many historians have pointed out if you're actually living in pointed out if you're actually living in pointed out if you're actually living in italy at this time period closer to italy at this time period closer to italy at this time period closer to where the center of of roman activity where the center of of roman activity where the center of of roman activity was things continued differently it's was things continued differently it's was things continued differently it's the hinterlands that feel it first and the hinterlands that feel it first and the hinterlands that feel it first and most strongly and recover the slowest so most strongly and recover the slowest so most strongly and recover the slowest so let's talk a little about the recovery let's talk a little about the recovery let's talk a little about the recovery because that's one of those periods that because that's one of those periods that because that's one of those periods that um i don't think enough people yours um i don't think enough people yours um i don't think enough people yours truly included know enough about and truly included know enough about and truly included know enough about and that's the the carolingian uh the that's the the carolingian uh the that's the the carolingian uh the attempts to recreate something of rome's attempts to recreate something of rome's attempts to recreate something of rome's grandeur from the ashes a couple grandeur from the ashes a couple grandeur from the ashes a couple centuries later and they're connected to centuries later and they're connected to centuries later and they're connected to these people that it's funny because the

these people that it's funny because the these people that it's funny because the terminology will kill you when you start terminology will kill you when you start terminology will kill you when you start using terms like franks to talk about a using terms like franks to talk about a using terms like franks to talk about a tribe that the romans had dealt with and tribe that the romans had dealt with and tribe that the romans had dealt with and you're still using franks to describe you're still using franks to describe you're still using franks to describe crusaders in the 1100s um who crusaders in the 1100s um who crusaders in the 1100s um who maybe talk about this because it's maybe talk about this because it's maybe talk about this because it's almost like when you talk about the almost like when you talk about the almost like when you talk about the roman ashes the the entities that begin roman ashes the the entities that begin roman ashes the the entities that begin to arise from the ashes as you said that to arise from the ashes as you said that to arise from the ashes as you said that you look at and say they didn't know you look at and say they didn't know you look at and say they didn't know then that they're going to play a huge then that they're going to play a huge then that they're going to play a huge role but we looking back on it now role but we looking back on it now role but we looking back on it now realize these francs are going to be an realize these francs are going to be an realize these francs are going to be an important entity whatever those francs important entity whatever those francs important entity whatever those francs are who are the franks well the franks are one of i mean well the franks are one of i mean originally one of many originally one of many originally one of many tribes who move into the uh the tribes who move into the uh the tribes who move into the uh the territories that were ruled by the territories that were ruled by the territories that were ruled by the western roman empire and ceased to be western roman empire and ceased to be western roman empire and ceased to be ruled by the western roman empire as ruled by the western roman empire as ruled by the western roman empire as these barbarian tribe these barbarian tribe these barbarian tribe quote unquote barbarian tried to move in quote unquote barbarian tried to move in quote unquote barbarian tried to move in but you're you're absolutely right i but you're you're absolutely right i but you're you're absolutely right i mean look if we're placing bets in let's mean look if we're placing bets in let's mean look if we're placing bets in let's say the sixth or even the seventh say the sixth or even the seventh say the sixth or even the seventh century a.d as to who's century a.d as to who's century a.d as to who's who's gonna be around in a thousand who's gonna be around in a thousand who's gonna be around in a thousand years is it the franks is it the years is it the franks is it the years is it the franks is it the begundians is it the lombards is it the begundians is it the lombards is it the begundians is it the lombards is it the visigoths the austrogoths the vandals visigoths the austrogoths the vandals visigoths the austrogoths the vandals the swaby you know there's all of these the swaby you know there's all of these the swaby you know there's all of these different tribal groups moving around different tribal groups moving around different tribal groups moving around what had been the western roman empire what had been the western roman empire what had been the western roman empire um and um and um and at different times at different times at different times a lot different a lot different a lot different different of them were ascendant but different of them were ascendant but different of them were ascendant but by the by the by the eighth ninth century the franks who

eighth ninth century the franks who eighth ninth century the franks who traced in their own mythology they said traced in their own mythology they said traced in their own mythology they said that they'd come a wandering from the that they'd come a wandering from the that they'd come a wandering from the trojan wars originally but trojan wars originally but trojan wars originally but they come are wandering from uh eastern they come are wandering from uh eastern they come are wandering from uh eastern europe probably is a germany europe probably is a germany europe probably is a germany um central and eastern europe um central and eastern europe um central and eastern europe across the rhine into the across the rhine into the across the rhine into the the broadly speaking the area that we the broadly speaking the area that we the broadly speaking the area that we now call france now call france now call france and had over several generations and had over several generations and had over several generations coalesced uh into a a coalesced uh into a a coalesced uh into a a a kingdom let's call it a kingdom it was a kingdom let's call it a kingdom it was a kingdom let's call it a kingdom it was ruled by kings first the merivingians ruled by kings first the merivingians ruled by kings first the merivingians the long-haired kings you know in which the long-haired kings you know in which the long-haired kings you know in which the the king was the the king was the the king was connoted by his connoted by his connoted by his the jew by growing his hair very long the jew by growing his hair very long the jew by growing his hair very long and could be deposed by having his hair and could be deposed by having his hair and could be deposed by having his hair cut off cut off cut off and by and by the merivinjin dynasty and by and by the merivinjin dynasty and by and by the merivinjin dynasty became became became um um um less politically influential less politically influential less politically influential govern the govern the govern the the frankish territories were governed the frankish territories were governed the frankish territories were governed on their behalf by mayors of the palace on their behalf by mayors of the palace on their behalf by mayors of the palace by politicians by politicians by politicians and then they were done away with by a and then they were done away with by a and then they were done away with by a dynasty who we now call the carolingians dynasty who we now call the carolingians dynasty who we now call the carolingians named after charles martel but most named after charles martel but most named after charles martel but most famous for producing charlemagne the famous for producing charlemagne the famous for producing charlemagne the king of the franks who had himself king of the franks who had himself king of the franks who had himself crowned crowned crowned in the year 800 as the first in the year 800 as the first in the year 800 as the first roman emperor of the reborn western roman emperor of the reborn western roman emperor of the reborn western roman empire which claimed to be the roman empire which claimed to be the roman empire which claimed to be the holy roman empire holy roman empire holy roman empire so we have a barbarian tribe which over so we have a barbarian tribe which over so we have a barbarian tribe which over many generations many generations many generations becomes becomes becomes collectively a kingdom

collectively a kingdom collectively a kingdom and then they become for a time under and then they become for a time under and then they become for a time under charlemagne and his descendants the the charlemagne and his descendants the the charlemagne and his descendants the the preeminent force in western europe preeminent force in western europe preeminent force in western europe the way they sort of absconded with the the way they sort of absconded with the the way they sort of absconded with the roman reputation title and all that roman reputation title and all that roman reputation title and all that reminds me of one of those companies reminds me of one of those companies reminds me of one of those companies that that has a great old lineage like that that has a great old lineage like that that has a great old lineage like in the united states it might be like a in the united states it might be like a in the united states it might be like a t and t or something and then a t and t t and t or something and then a t and t t and t or something and then a t and t goes out of business but somebody buys goes out of business but somebody buys goes out of business but somebody buys the name and then they get to be the new the name and then they get to be the new the name and then they get to be the new a t and t and they and they get to a t and t and they and they get to a t and t and they and they get to inherit all that cachet even though they inherit all that cachet even though they inherit all that cachet even though they had nothing to do with the original had nothing to do with the original had nothing to do with the original entity for those who don't know or maybe entity for those who don't know or maybe entity for those who don't know or maybe those in germany right now the name for those in germany right now the name for those in germany right now the name for france and germany is still frank reich france and germany is still frank reich france and germany is still frank reich the empire of the franks i also like and the empire of the franks i also like and the empire of the franks i also like and i never made this connection when i was i never made this connection when i was i never made this connection when i was reading um the crusades from the middle reading um the crusades from the middle reading um the crusades from the middle eastern viewpoint i forget what the book eastern viewpoint i forget what the book eastern viewpoint i forget what the book was called and they referred to the was called and they referred to the was called and they referred to the crusaders from europe as the french and crusaders from europe as the french and crusaders from europe as the french and i remember thinking that's but yeah it's i remember thinking that's but yeah it's i remember thinking that's but yeah it's it just turns frank into french right it just turns frank into french right it just turns frank into french right there there there and then you begin to see the and then you begin to see the and then you begin to see the connections because frank doesn't mean connections because frank doesn't mean connections because frank doesn't mean anything to most people who speak the anything to most people who speak the anything to most people who speak the english language but french obviously english language but french obviously english language but french obviously does and when you and when you see one does and when you and when you see one does and when you and when you see one word morph into the other you kind of word morph into the other you kind of word morph into the other you kind of the light bulb goes on in your head and the light bulb goes on in your head and the light bulb goes on in your head and you go oh okay i see the connection um you go oh okay i see the connection um you go oh okay i see the connection um so so this is interesting though also so so this is interesting though also so so this is interesting though also because we did a show a long time ago on because we did a show a long time ago on because we did a show a long time ago on um on that transition period so from um on that transition period so from um on that transition period so from mirror of indians to carol indians and mirror of indians to carol indians and mirror of indians to carol indians and when you read the accounts of what these when you read the accounts of what these when you read the accounts of what these merovingian franks were like they sound merovingian franks were like they sound merovingian franks were like they sound like vikings when you look at pictures like vikings when you look at pictures like vikings when you look at pictures and they're you know the the and they're you know the the and they're you know the the contemporary type stuff but they're contemporary type stuff but they're contemporary type stuff but they're they're sort of ideal i don't know if

they're sort of ideal i don't know if they're sort of ideal i don't know if they're idealized or if we've barbarized they're idealized or if we've barbarized they're idealized or if we've barbarized the merovingians in their true but they the merovingians in their true but they the merovingians in their true but they all look so civilized and so king arthur all look so civilized and so king arthur all look so civilized and so king arthur like and and uh they look they look uh like and and uh they look they look uh like and and uh they look they look uh clean and washed and well dressed and clean and washed and well dressed and clean and washed and well dressed and they look like they're they look very they look like they're they look very they look like they're they look very very civilized and then when you read very civilized and then when you read very civilized and then when you read the accounts of people like um some of the accounts of people like um some of the accounts of people like um some of these some of the one charles martel is these some of the one charles martel is these some of the one charles martel is a perfect example but some of the a perfect example but some of the a perfect example but some of the merovingian kings merovingian kings merovingian kings what's the one who who would would have what's the one who who would would have what's the one who who would would have people bend over to bow for him and then people bend over to bow for him and then people bend over to bow for him and then he'd split their skull with the battle he'd split their skull with the battle he'd split their skull with the battle axe i mean they had all these wonder so axe i mean they had all these wonder so axe i mean they had all these wonder so let me ask you i guess what i'm saying let me ask you i guess what i'm saying let me ask you i guess what i'm saying in my typically long-winded question i in my typically long-winded question i in my typically long-winded question i am getting to somewhere is that if am getting to somewhere is that if am getting to somewhere is that if looking back on it with your eye which looking back on it with your eye which looking back on it with your eye which of those two impressions of those two impressions of those two impressions of the merovingians the franks before of the merovingians the franks before of the merovingians the franks before charlemagne um and and pepin his father charlemagne um and and pepin his father charlemagne um and and pepin his father uh uh uh what which of those two interpretations what which of those two interpretations what which of those two interpretations seems more like to you have we seems more like to you have we seems more like to you have we barbarized a bunch of people that were barbarized a bunch of people that were barbarized a bunch of people that were more civilized than we thought or or more civilized than we thought or or more civilized than we thought or or have the chroniclers made a bunch of have the chroniclers made a bunch of have the chroniclers made a bunch of viking types look better than they viking types look better than they viking types look better than they actually were i think i think you know so much is what you want them you know so much is what you want them you know so much is what you want them to be and i think particularly in the to be and i think particularly in the to be and i think particularly in the early middle ages late antiquity early early middle ages late antiquity early early middle ages late antiquity early middle ages the evidence is so middle ages the evidence is so middle ages the evidence is so scant you know i'm a late medievalist by scant you know i'm a late medievalist by scant you know i'm a late medievalist by inclination by training so when i came inclination by training so when i came inclination by training so when i came to writing this new book i to writing this new book i to writing this new book i a lot of the early middle ages was kind a lot of the early middle ages was kind a lot of the early middle ages was kind of virgin territory for me and of virgin territory for me and of virgin territory for me and that was one of the reasons i enjoyed that was one of the reasons i enjoyed that was one of the reasons i enjoyed doing it um doing it um doing it um of course as it always

of course as it always of course as it always you know you're um you know you're um you know you're um you can be swayed very easily at first you can be swayed very easily at first you can be swayed very easily at first by the account that you're reading now by the account that you're reading now by the account that you're reading now of course if you're reading a council of course if you're reading a council of course if you're reading a council of romans watching the barbarians uh of romans watching the barbarians uh of romans watching the barbarians uh swarm over once swarm over once swarm over once solid roman territories they are solid roman territories they are solid roman territories they are barbarians they're the sort of hideously barbarians they're the sort of hideously barbarians they're the sort of hideously uncivilized folk who um who have no uncivilized folk who um who have no uncivilized folk who um who have no right being where they are but of course right being where they are but of course right being where they are but of course as time goes by and those hideously as time goes by and those hideously as time goes by and those hideously uncivilized folk who have no right being uncivilized folk who have no right being uncivilized folk who have no right being where they are become the ruling power where they are become the ruling power where they are become the ruling power the chronicles become somewhat more the chronicles become somewhat more the chronicles become somewhat more um um um [Music] [Music] [Music] somewhat kinder to them i somewhat kinder to them i somewhat kinder to them i i'm a sucker for uh grave goods dan and i'm a sucker for uh grave goods dan and i'm a sucker for uh grave goods dan and so if you take someone like childrex the so if you take someone like childrex the so if you take someone like childrex the first first first um probably the first mayor of indian um probably the first mayor of indian um probably the first mayor of indian king we know very much about at all you king we know very much about at all you king we know very much about at all you start fighting all those bees in the start fighting all those bees in the start fighting all those bees in the grave goods don't you find the gold bees grave goods don't you find the gold bees grave goods don't you find the gold bees and you know so we're talking about a and you know so we're talking about a and you know so we're talking about a guy who died at the end of the fifth guy who died at the end of the fifth guy who died at the end of the fifth century around probably a 481 century around probably a 481 century around probably a 481 and yeah i mean in the innocent and yeah i mean in the innocent and yeah i mean in the innocent ornamental gold bees signet rings spears ornamental gold bees signet rings spears ornamental gold bees signet rings spears axes axes axes um um um garnet garnet everywhere i love it oh garnet garnet everywhere i love it oh garnet garnet everywhere i love it oh garnet everywhere you know you've made garnet everywhere you know you've made garnet everywhere you know you've made it when here is a society that has a here is a society that has a a luxurious material culture accessible a luxurious material culture accessible a luxurious material culture accessible at least to the people at the very very at least to the people at the very very at least to the people at the very very top of it here probably is also a

top of it here probably is also a top of it here probably is also a society that like most societies in society that like most societies in society that like most societies in human history doesn't really offer very human history doesn't really offer very human history doesn't really offer very much for much for much for the ordinary joe at the bottom of it the ordinary joe at the bottom of it the ordinary joe at the bottom of it just sort of uh subsisting as best he just sort of uh subsisting as best he just sort of uh subsisting as best he she and and she and and she and and and family can do and family can do and family can do um so um so um so i think it yeah it look it's i think it yeah it look it's i think it yeah it look it's it's totally a question of it's totally a question of it's totally a question of what what what who you're looking at and from what who you're looking at and from what who you're looking at and from what perspective uh certainly i think as perspective uh certainly i think as perspective uh certainly i think as here's the thing about the middle ages here's the thing about the middle ages here's the thing about the middle ages in general to sort of blow back into a in general to sort of blow back into a in general to sort of blow back into a big point as the middle ages wear on big point as the middle ages wear on big point as the middle ages wear on the evidence becomes fuller and the the evidence becomes fuller and the the evidence becomes fuller and the people start to seem a little bit more people start to seem a little bit more people start to seem a little bit more like us you know recognizable to a like us you know recognizable to a like us you know recognizable to a modern eye and so and somewhat more modern eye and so and somewhat more modern eye and so and somewhat more sympathetic so for example it's much sympathetic so for example it's much sympathetic so for example it's much easier for us to sympathize and easier for us to sympathize and easier for us to sympathize and empathize and feel empathize and feel empathize and feel uh some kind of fraternity with leonardo uh some kind of fraternity with leonardo uh some kind of fraternity with leonardo da vinci at the end of the middle ages da vinci at the end of the middle ages da vinci at the end of the middle ages you know the universal genius the man you know the universal genius the man you know the universal genius the man designing machines and designing machines and designing machines and dissecting bodies and and painting great dissecting bodies and and painting great dissecting bodies and and painting great pages than it is for us even to put pages than it is for us even to put pages than it is for us even to put ourselves into the ourselves into the ourselves into the the mind of childrex first with his the mind of childrex first with his the mind of childrex first with his lovely bees and garnets do you know what lovely bees and garnets do you know what lovely bees and garnets do you know what i mean it's just it just is easier i mean it's just it just is easier i mean it's just it just is easier because the time brings us closer to because the time brings us closer to because the time brings us closer to those people those people those people so inevitably i think when we look back so inevitably i think when we look back so inevitably i think when we look back very very very very deep into the early middle ages very deep into the early middle ages very deep into the early middle ages we can be um we can be um we can be um somewhat appalled by the uh

somewhat appalled by the uh somewhat appalled by the uh the barbarity of the time you know you the barbarity of the time you know you the barbarity of the time you know you make me think of something that i've make me think of something that i've make me think of something that i've always been fascinated with and i don't always been fascinated with and i don't always been fascinated with and i don't know i'd be very interested maybe maybe know i'd be very interested maybe maybe know i'd be very interested maybe maybe this is a future book i need to work on this is a future book i need to work on this is a future book i need to work on or something but but i'm fascinated so or something but but i'm fascinated so or something but but i'm fascinated so so like when we look back at leonardo da so like when we look back at leonardo da so like when we look back at leonardo da vinci like you just said we understand vinci like you just said we understand vinci like you just said we understand that there has been tremendous amount of that there has been tremendous amount of that there has been tremendous amount of change and we're comfortable with the change and we're comfortable with the change and we're comfortable with the idea that leonardo would have dressed idea that leonardo would have dressed idea that leonardo would have dressed differently look differently lived in a differently look differently lived in a differently look differently lived in a different sort of milieu than what we do different sort of milieu than what we do different sort of milieu than what we do and that's understandable but when you and that's understandable but when you and that's understandable but when you look at for example uh a portrayal so look at for example uh a portrayal so look at for example uh a portrayal so you had mentioned the later middle ages you had mentioned the later middle ages you had mentioned the later middle ages or the solid middle ages let's just say or the solid middle ages let's just say or the solid middle ages let's just say the uh 14th century right 1300s um the uh 14th century right 1300s um the uh 14th century right 1300s um somebody you'll see manuscripts with somebody you'll see manuscripts with somebody you'll see manuscripts with them portraying a much earlier them portraying a much earlier them portraying a much earlier historical event so maybe something from historical event so maybe something from historical event so maybe something from rome or maybe something from the rome or maybe something from the rome or maybe something from the carolingians or what have you but they carolingians or what have you but they carolingians or what have you but they portray it in portray it in portray it in contemporary terms right so the people contemporary terms right so the people contemporary terms right so the people will be wearing the same sort of armor will be wearing the same sort of armor will be wearing the same sort of armor that they would be wearing in the 14th that they would be wearing in the 14th that they would be wearing in the 14th century rather than armor that would century rather than armor that would century rather than armor that would have been you know something more in have been you know something more in have been you know something more in other words we acknowledge that the other words we acknowledge that the other words we acknowledge that the things in leonardo's time are not going things in leonardo's time are not going things in leonardo's time are not going to be like our own they don't to be like our own they don't to be like our own they don't necessarily do that in the artwork did necessarily do that in the artwork did necessarily do that in the artwork did people and this may not be a question people and this may not be a question people and this may not be a question that dan jones is is the right person to that dan jones is is the right person to that dan jones is is the right person to ask but but do people back then when ask but but do people back then when ask but but do people back then when they're when they're talking about the they're when they're talking about the they're when they're talking about the kings of yore or whatever do they kings of yore or whatever do they kings of yore or whatever do they understand that they're going to be understand that they're going to be understand that they're going to be different living in a different sort of different living in a different sort of different living in a different sort of technological sort of situation or is technological sort of situation or is technological sort of situation or is the assumption back then that everything the assumption back then that everything the assumption back then that everything is as everything was is as everything was is as everything was well i this is this is a really good well i this is this is a really good well i this is this is a really good result because we do the same thing result because we do the same thing result because we do the same thing today so let's take these uh uh let's

today so let's take these uh uh let's today so let's take these uh uh let's let's drill down into the example you let's drill down into the example you let's drill down into the example you gave um let's imagine a sort of 14th gave um let's imagine a sort of 14th gave um let's imagine a sort of 14th century french chronicle depicting the century french chronicle depicting the century french chronicle depicting the song of roland's the most probably the song of roland's the most probably the song of roland's the most probably the most famous story of the the told in the most famous story of the the told in the most famous story of the the told in the later middle ages right in spain or later middle ages right in spain or later middle ages right in spain or southern france right right he's yeah southern france right right he's yeah southern france right right he's yeah he's on his way back from from northern he's on his way back from from northern he's on his way back from from northern spain fighting the saracens in northern spain fighting the saracens in northern spain fighting the saracens in northern spain and he's ambushed and rossvalle spain and he's ambushed and rossvalle spain and he's ambushed and rossvalle and blows the horn to summer to warn and blows the horn to summer to warn and blows the horn to summer to warn charlemagne you know the great king of charlemagne you know the great king of charlemagne you know the great king of the franks uh that there's trouble afoot the franks uh that there's trouble afoot the franks uh that there's trouble afoot and in blowing the hall and his temples and in blowing the hall and his temples and in blowing the hall and his temples burst and he dies a hero's death okay burst and he dies a hero's death okay burst and he dies a hero's death okay the big story told in the 14th century the big story told in the 14th century the big story told in the 14th century telling telling telling a heavily romanticized version a heavily romanticized version a heavily romanticized version of a story set in the late eighth of a story set in the late eighth of a story set in the late eighth century so what is what is that what 14 century so what is what is that what 14 century so what is what is that what 14 minus eight by madison very good 600 minus eight by madison very good 600 minus eight by madison very good 600 years years years previous previous previous i just watched i just watched i just watched okay and in that 14th century telling okay and in that 14th century telling okay and in that 14th century telling you're right the drawings will happen in you're right the drawings will happen in you're right the drawings will happen in 14th century armor and the more rays of 14th century armor and the more rays of 14th century armor and the more rays of the of all the characters will the of all the characters will the of all the characters will essentially be 14th century these will essentially be 14th century these will essentially be 14th century these will be 14th century people gathering about be 14th century people gathering about be 14th century people gathering about 600 years earlier now 600 years earlier now 600 years earlier now i just watched ridley scott's uh i just watched ridley scott's uh i just watched ridley scott's uh the last duel about a 14th century duel the last duel about a 14th century duel the last duel about a 14th century duel between two dudes over uh between two dudes over uh between two dudes over uh whether adam driver the cat and a driver whether adam driver the cat and a driver whether adam driver the cat and a driver character jacqueline had uh raped the character jacqueline had uh raped the character jacqueline had uh raped the wife of matt damon wife of matt damon wife of matt damon jean de carroge jean de carroge jean de carroge and of course what in the hands of the and of course what in the hands of the and of course what in the hands of the the writers dave and affleck and the

the writers dave and affleck and the the writers dave and affleck and the director ridley scott this has become a director ridley scott this has become a director ridley scott this has become a a movie that is that is really about um a movie that is that is really about um a movie that is that is really about um hollywood hollywood hollywood politics and american gender politics politics and american gender politics politics and american gender politics uh in the 21st century it's just put uh in the 21st century it's just put uh in the 21st century it's just put into into into um um um it just happens to be taking place in it just happens to be taking place in it just happens to be taking place in the 14th century now the costume in that the 14th century now the costume in that the 14th century now the costume in that movie is the 14th century so they're not movie is the 14th century so they're not movie is the 14th century so they're not all wandering about in all wandering about in all wandering about in um skinny jeans with iphones i'll grant um skinny jeans with iphones i'll grant um skinny jeans with iphones i'll grant you that we don't really do that anymore you that we don't really do that anymore you that we don't really do that anymore but what is but what is but what is obvious throughout that entire movie is obvious throughout that entire movie is obvious throughout that entire movie is that this is one big analogy for the that this is one big analogy for the that this is one big analogy for the modern world modern world modern world so we're we're doing exactly the same so we're we're doing exactly the same so we're we're doing exactly the same thing thing thing in the 21st century as was being done in in the 21st century as was being done in in the 21st century as was being done in the 14th century and we're aware that the 14th century and we're aware that the 14th century and we're aware that we're doing it now the big question is we're doing it now the big question is we're doing it now the big question is to what extent in the 14th century to what extent in the 14th century to what extent in the 14th century are they aware that this is a sort of are they aware that this is a sort of are they aware that this is a sort of fabricated vision fabricated vision fabricated vision of life or that that of life or that that of life or that that maybe it wasn't quite like this under maybe it wasn't quite like this under maybe it wasn't quite like this under charlemagne i charlemagne i charlemagne i this this is only really speculation but this this is only really speculation but this this is only really speculation but i think that we must credit our i think that we must credit our i think that we must credit our historical forebears with some historical forebears with some historical forebears with some intelligence and self-awareness i think intelligence and self-awareness i think intelligence and self-awareness i think we often write we often write we often write self-awareness out you know we don't self-awareness out you know we don't self-awareness out you know we don't credit self-awareness uh in our credit self-awareness uh in our credit self-awareness uh in our in historical in historical in historical figures enough figures enough figures enough i think people realize that that this is i think people realize that that this is i think people realize that that this is not maybe quite how it was but this is not maybe quite how it was but this is not maybe quite how it was but this is also the best way to make this story

also the best way to make this story also the best way to make this story recognizable to a modern audience recognizable to a modern audience recognizable to a modern audience um and so the attitudes between then and um and so the attitudes between then and um and so the attitudes between then and now i don't think that radically now i don't think that radically now i don't think that radically different just just the technologies are different just just the technologies are different just just the technologies are i think that's a great answer and i i think that's a great answer and i i think that's a great answer and i think we should i should have made a think we should i should have made a think we should i should have made a distinction between the highly educated distinction between the highly educated distinction between the highly educated members of society and those um who'd members of society and those um who'd members of society and those um who'd never had any education at all and that never had any education at all and that never had any education at all and that you were just pointing out may not even you were just pointing out may not even you were just pointing out may not even know about these events so you have to know about these events so you have to know about these events so you have to make them relatable so let's talk about make them relatable so let's talk about make them relatable so let's talk about because you know when when i was a kid because you know when when i was a kid because you know when when i was a kid and i was so interested in european and i was so interested in european and i was so interested in european history you tend to forget all of the history you tend to forget all of the history you tend to forget all of the outward pressures of the other outward pressures of the other outward pressures of the other civilizations that are impacting that civilizations that are impacting that civilizations that are impacting that history and you mentioned uh the history and you mentioned uh the history and you mentioned uh the saracens in the song of roland situation saracens in the song of roland situation saracens in the song of roland situation so let's talk about that for a minute so let's talk about that for a minute so let's talk about that for a minute one of the more interesting and and one of the more interesting and and one of the more interesting and and little-known i would think and and little-known i would think and and little-known i would think and and something that we should study more here something that we should study more here something that we should study more here in the west is the great original muslim in the west is the great original muslim in the west is the great original muslim conquests of the arab and and byzantine conquests of the arab and and byzantine conquests of the arab and and byzantine and the other worlds that can we talk a and the other worlds that can we talk a and the other worlds that can we talk a little bit about this and can you little bit about this and can you little bit about this and can you because i was trying to figure out if because i was trying to figure out if because i was trying to figure out if there was anything i could think of there was anything i could think of there was anything i could think of historically speaking from any era historically speaking from any era historically speaking from any era that was an analogy that made sense to that was an analogy that made sense to that was an analogy that made sense to that that to me seems a singular when that that to me seems a singular when that that to me seems a singular when you start you know looking at all the you start you know looking at all the you start you know looking at all the different angles a sort of a singular different angles a sort of a singular different angles a sort of a singular event talk to me a little bit about the event talk to me a little bit about the event talk to me a little bit about the the original arab muslim conquest you the original arab muslim conquest you the original arab muslim conquest you know when when islam first appeared on know when when islam first appeared on know when when islam first appeared on the stage and rolled over several the stage and rolled over several the stage and rolled over several traditional superpowers it's one of the most extraordinary it's one of the most extraordinary episodes in the whole of the middle ages episodes in the whole of the middle ages episodes in the whole of the middle ages i mean arguably in i would say anything i mean arguably in i would say anything i mean arguably in i would say anything anytime yeah any time anytime yeah any time anytime yeah any time um

um um i think maybe so i think maybe so i think maybe so the speed of conquest and this is the speed of conquest and this is the speed of conquest and this is something you've something you've something you've obviously obviously obviously worked a lot on uh is comparable with worked a lot on uh is comparable with worked a lot on uh is comparable with genghis khan's conquests you know that genghis khan's conquests you know that genghis khan's conquests you know that scale that speed that rapidity of a sort scale that speed that rapidity of a sort scale that speed that rapidity of a sort of a new movement but what's different of a new movement but what's different of a new movement but what's different what's different between the early what's different between the early what's different between the early islamic conquests you know out of arabia islamic conquests you know out of arabia islamic conquests you know out of arabia through half of byzantium through the through half of byzantium through the through half of byzantium through the whole of north africa into sicily into whole of north africa into sicily into whole of north africa into sicily into spain all the way up to the pyrenees you spain all the way up to the pyrenees you spain all the way up to the pyrenees you know in no time at all the edges of know in no time at all the edges of know in no time at all the edges of china think about i mean china think about i mean china think about i mean right and and leaving an imprint in all right and and leaving an imprint in all right and and leaving an imprint in all of those places from transoxania to the of those places from transoxania to the of those places from transoxania to the iberian peninsula you know iberian peninsula you know iberian peninsula you know half the known world that is in alma half the known world that is in alma half the known world that is in alma almost everywhere almost everywhere almost everywhere that the first arab caliphs after that the first arab caliphs after that the first arab caliphs after muhammad the russians you know the muhammad the russians you know the muhammad the russians you know the rightly guy the russians ali ali through to through to through to the the the uh uh uh well all the way to say 750 well all the way to say 750 well all the way to say 750 the the the the the the splitting point between the splitting point between the splitting point between the caliphate and the abbasid caliphate and the abbasid caliphate and the abbasid almost everywhere that was conquered almost everywhere that was conquered almost everywhere that was conquered by the arabs by the muslim arabs in the by the arabs by the muslim arabs in the by the arabs by the muslim arabs in the those first generations of islamic those first generations of islamic those first generations of islamic expansion remains expansion remains expansion remains islamic today that imprint has lasted that imprint has lasted as long as all of the imprints the as long as all of the imprints the as long as all of the imprints the middle ages have left in terms of you

middle ages have left in terms of you middle ages have left in terms of you know in the in the western christian know in the in the western christian know in the in the western christian world world world the uh the the uh the the uh the rule of law the cathedrals the castles rule of law the cathedrals the castles rule of law the cathedrals the castles that are all over you know western that are all over you know western that are all over you know western europe and england and wales in europe and england and wales in europe and england and wales in particular particular particular um the the music the art the um the the music the art the um the the music the art the the elements of the political thought the elements of the political thought the elements of the political thought just as much just as much just as much in the in the in the uh arabic and persian uh arabic and persian uh arabic and persian worlds worlds worlds the the the the first islamic the first islamic the first islamic conquerors have left their mark however conquerors have left their mark however conquerors have left their mark however there is and there is a schism that there is and there is a schism that there is and there is a schism that exists exists exists in scholarship between in scholarship between in scholarship between christian western christian western christian western anglophone as well as the french and anglophone as well as the french and anglophone as well as the french and german german german scholarship and islamic scholarship and scholarship and islamic scholarship and scholarship and islamic scholarship and there are very few writers you mentioned there are very few writers you mentioned there are very few writers you mentioned earlier on a book about the crusades earlier on a book about the crusades earlier on a book about the crusades from the islamic perspective and i'm from the islamic perspective and i'm from the islamic perspective and i'm going to i'm going to place a small bet going to i'm going to place a small bet going to i'm going to place a small bet that you're thinking about paul cobb that you're thinking about paul cobb that you're thinking about paul cobb uh his book of the crusades through arab uh his book of the crusades through arab uh his book of the crusades through arab yeah yeah i think i think it's that but yeah yeah i think i think it's that but yeah yeah i think i think it's that but fantastic book but a very very rare book fantastic book but a very very rare book fantastic book but a very very rare book almost nobody almost nobody almost nobody on either side is doing that and and on either side is doing that and and on either side is doing that and and because so we still had this enormous because so we still had this enormous because so we still had this enormous historical schism when i wrote the historical schism when i wrote the historical schism when i wrote the chapter in powers and thrones entitled chapter in powers and thrones entitled chapter in powers and thrones entitled arabs which narrates the story from you arabs which narrates the story from you arabs which narrates the story from you know muhammad's life all the way up to 7 know muhammad's life all the way up to 7 know muhammad's life all the way up to 7 50 and and to sort of the the end of the 50 and and to sort of the the end of the 50 and and to sort of the the end of the um the expansions um the expansions um the expansions i went into a totally new scholarship i went into a totally new scholarship i went into a totally new scholarship and i had to talk to completely new

and i had to talk to completely new and i had to talk to completely new scholars i called up my friend samir scholars i called up my friend samir scholars i called up my friend samir rahim he's a brilliant uh i've known for rahim he's a brilliant uh i've known for rahim he's a brilliant uh i've known for more than half my life brilliant more than half my life brilliant more than half my life brilliant journalist journalist journalist he's also a fantastic scholar of early he's also a fantastic scholar of early he's also a fantastic scholar of early islam and i said samia you know what i'm islam and i said samia you know what i'm islam and i said samia you know what i'm going to need a reading list here and he going to need a reading list here and he going to need a reading list here and he sent me a a long reading list which i sent me a a long reading list which i sent me a a long reading list which i dug straight into dug straight into dug straight into but there was no crossover but there was no crossover but there was no crossover with with with anything else that i was reading anything else that i was reading anything else that i was reading yeah this was this was a scholarship yeah this was this was a scholarship yeah this was this was a scholarship that sat on its own away from you know that sat on its own away from you know that sat on its own away from you know the the rest of what i what i was the the rest of what i what i was the the rest of what i what i was reading for this history of the middle reading for this history of the middle reading for this history of the middle ages and so we don't tend to think about ages and so we don't tend to think about ages and so we don't tend to think about and the early islamic caliphates and the early islamic caliphates and the early islamic caliphates as being part of quote unquote medieval as being part of quote unquote medieval as being part of quote unquote medieval history and yet they were yeah history and yet they were yeah history and yet they were yeah chris wickham brilliant um scholar of chris wickham brilliant um scholar of chris wickham brilliant um scholar of the early middle ages wrote uh an the early middle ages wrote uh an the early middle ages wrote uh an amazing book called the inheritance of amazing book called the inheritance of amazing book called the inheritance of rome rome rome and it asked the question after the fall of the western roman after the fall of the western roman empire empire empire what what what comes comes comes what what comes into that space and and what what comes into that space and and what what comes into that space and and he looks and wickham looks at he looks and wickham looks at he looks and wickham looks at the barbarian kingdoms he looks at the barbarian kingdoms he looks at the barbarian kingdoms he looks at byzantium and east around constantinople byzantium and east around constantinople byzantium and east around constantinople he looks at the franks and he looks at he looks at the franks and he looks at he looks at the franks and he looks at so he's one of the few scholars who so he's one of the few scholars who so he's one of the few scholars who looks at looks at looks at the the the the islamic caliphates the islamic caliphates the islamic caliphates now when i think about that the big now when i think about that the big now when i think about that the big question question question who has the best claim out of those who has the best claim out of those who has the best claim out of those groups to really call themselves the groups to really call themselves the groups to really call themselves the heirs of rome heirs of rome heirs of rome i would argue it's probably

i would argue it's probably i would argue it's probably it's probably the early islamic caliphs it's probably the early islamic caliphs it's probably the early islamic caliphs because they put together the biggest because they put together the biggest because they put together the biggest empire on you know on rome's patch empire on you know on rome's patch empire on you know on rome's patch bonded by the a single language arabic bonded by the a single language arabic bonded by the a single language arabic whereas rome had latin bonded by whereas rome had latin bonded by whereas rome had latin bonded by something approaching a common um something approaching a common um something approaching a common um bureaucratic imperial culture that's all bureaucratic imperial culture that's all bureaucratic imperial culture that's all the way from you know transoxania to the way from you know transoxania to the way from you know transoxania to spain there is this sort of common spain there is this sort of common spain there is this sort of common feeling bonded by a coinage bonded by a feeling bonded by a coinage bonded by a feeling bonded by a coinage bonded by a faith above everything faith above everything faith above everything um um um capable you know military militarily capable you know military militarily capable you know military militarily fearsome you know all of these fearsome you know all of these fearsome you know all of these arguably it's it's the it's the arabs arguably it's it's the it's the arabs arguably it's it's the it's the arabs who are the real heirs of rome but i can who are the real heirs of rome but i can who are the real heirs of rome but i can almost feel people bristling as they almost feel people bristling as they almost feel people bristling as they hear that because we just don't connect hear that because we just don't connect hear that because we just don't connect these two things as being part of the these two things as being part of the these two things as being part of the the same historical the same historical the same historical story story story well and maybe forget that i mean again well and maybe forget that i mean again well and maybe forget that i mean again if we're looking at this from a if we're looking at this from a if we're looking at this from a geopolitical standpoint and you put a geopolitical standpoint and you put a geopolitical standpoint and you put a map down map down map down from this era you're gonna see i mean from this era you're gonna see i mean from this era you're gonna see i mean this is how american military planners this is how american military planners this is how american military planners would look at it right they would say would look at it right they would say would look at it right they would say well well well look look you're surrounded over here in look look you're surrounded over here in look look you're surrounded over here in spain which is moorish north africa is spain which is moorish north africa is spain which is moorish north africa is all islamic the middle east is islamic all islamic the middle east is islamic all islamic the middle east is islamic byzan the byzantines are under siege and byzan the byzantines are under siege and byzan the byzantines are under siege and in the north you have uh non-christian in the north you have uh non-christian in the north you have uh non-christian people and this would have been where people and this would have been where people and this would have been where where christianity was considered almost where christianity was considered almost where christianity was considered almost a power block the way we saw you know a power block the way we saw you know a power block the way we saw you know communism and and the free world as communism and and the free world as communism and and the free world as power blocks so it's not your power

power blocks so it's not your power power blocks so it's not your power block in the north it's not your power block in the north it's not your power block in the north it's not your power block in spain it's not your power block block in spain it's not your power block block in spain it's not your power block in north africa and then if you're if in north africa and then if you're if in north africa and then if you're if you're looking at this from a european you're looking at this from a european you're looking at this from a european point of view you also have and and i point of view you also have and and i point of view you also have and and i love the these cultures you also have love the these cultures you also have love the these cultures you also have what what you could call sort of the the what what you could call sort of the the what what you could call sort of the the the the the um the the the um the the the um what would you what would you what would what would you what would you what would what would you what would you what would you refer to you you'd call it the you refer to you you'd call it the you refer to you you'd call it the berlin wall of europe but it's it's it's berlin wall of europe but it's it's it's berlin wall of europe but it's it's it's it's it's what it's what happens once it's it's what it's what happens once it's it's what it's what happens once you get to the to the plains of hungary you get to the to the plains of hungary you get to the to the plains of hungary and the more flat territory that becomes and the more flat territory that becomes and the more flat territory that becomes the great step and you've always had i the great step and you've always had i the great step and you've always had i mean herodotus is talking about mean herodotus is talking about mean herodotus is talking about chimerians and scythians and the romans chimerians and scythians and the romans chimerians and scythians and the romans would use those same terms for much would use those same terms for much would use those same terms for much later people but but you have you know later people but but you have you know later people but but you have you know we mentioned the huns earlier you've got we mentioned the huns earlier you've got we mentioned the huns earlier you've got an area there that just not only keeps an area there that just not only keeps an area there that just not only keeps the europeans from expanding in that the europeans from expanding in that the europeans from expanding in that direction but is continually pressuring direction but is continually pressuring direction but is continually pressuring towards the european direction and it's towards the european direction and it's towards the european direction and it's one people's after another after another one people's after another after another one people's after another after another you know from you know from you know from magyars and huns and avars and cell magyars and huns and avars and cell magyars and huns and avars and cell jokes and and talk to me a little bit jokes and and talk to me a little bit jokes and and talk to me a little bit about this this um about this this um about this this um this great wall on the eastern side of this great wall on the eastern side of this great wall on the eastern side of european culture that is the step people european culture that is the step people european culture that is the step people who also of course you know the other who also of course you know the other who also of course you know the other side of them is touching chinese side of them is touching chinese side of them is touching chinese civilization and they're acting as a civilization and they're acting as a civilization and they're acting as a conduit between the the two worlds that conduit between the the two worlds that conduit between the the two worlds that are not only not connected but in a lot are not only not connected but in a lot are not only not connected but in a lot of cases don't even know of each other's of cases don't even know of each other's of cases don't even know of each other's existence existence existence right and maybe the analogy is is right and maybe the analogy is is right and maybe the analogy is is the way we sometimes talk about bodies the way we sometimes talk about bodies the way we sometimes talk about bodies of water being either that's a good one of water being either that's a good one of water being either that's a good one very good roads or walls right you know very good roads or walls right you know very good roads or walls right you know on a tiny scale it's the english channel on a tiny scale it's the english channel on a tiny scale it's the english channel is either a barrier or it's a or it's a

is either a barrier or it's a or it's a is either a barrier or it's a or it's a bridge and the same is probably true of bridge and the same is probably true of bridge and the same is probably true of the the great step that conjoins uh the the great step that conjoins uh the the great step that conjoins uh eastern europe with with northern china eastern europe with with northern china eastern europe with with northern china now now now i think you're absolutely right for the i think you're absolutely right for the i think you're absolutely right for the most part that sort of most part that sort of most part that sort of keeps these big power blocks these keeps these big power blocks these keeps these big power blocks these different peoples apart however when you different peoples apart however when you different peoples apart however when you come to it come to it come to it suddenly the mongols appear end of the suddenly the mongols appear end of the suddenly the mongols appear end of the 12th century it becomes like a 12th century it becomes like a 12th century it becomes like a superhighway superhighway superhighway and uh for the the right and uh for the the right and uh for the the right um um um military superpower as the mongols turn military superpower as the mongols turn military superpower as the mongols turn out to be it's that's that's a road out to be it's that's that's a road out to be it's that's that's a road that's like a that's a super highway for that's like a that's a super highway for that's like a that's a super highway for them to charge along them to charge along them to charge along um um um i think if we're thinking about those i think if we're thinking about those i think if we're thinking about those big blocks that emerge in the middle big blocks that emerge in the middle big blocks that emerge in the middle ages and to connect this a little bit ages and to connect this a little bit ages and to connect this a little bit with uh with the with uh with the with uh with the role of role of role of of islam and the of islam and the of islam and the the arab-speaking and persian world the arab-speaking and persian world the arab-speaking and persian world it's interesting after it's interesting after it's interesting after the eighth century roughly those those the eighth century roughly those those the eighth century roughly those those blocks don't really move very much and blocks don't really move very much and blocks don't really move very much and it's only it's only it's only in in in well there's an expansion of the of the well there's an expansion of the of the well there's an expansion of the of the western christian world western christian world western christian world in spain and portugal something in spain and portugal something in spain and portugal something interesting happens the wreckage is very interesting happens the wreckage is very interesting happens the wreckage is very very unusual unlike the crusades to very unusual unlike the crusades to very unusual unlike the crusades to egypt unlike the crusades to egypt unlike the crusades to egypt unlike the crusades to the middle east you know to the near the middle east you know to the near the middle east you know to the near east eastern mediterranean east eastern mediterranean east eastern mediterranean it had there's a there's a permanent it had there's a there's a permanent it had there's a there's a permanent change in the sort of faith groups which change in the sort of faith groups which change in the sort of faith groups which which govern that territory we can look which govern that territory we can look which govern that territory we can look at northern europe the baltic

at northern europe the baltic at northern europe the baltic scandinavia that too there's a scandinavia that too there's a scandinavia that too there's a christianizing process there the christianizing process there the christianizing process there the christianizing process in poland and christianizing process in poland and christianizing process in poland and hungary and so on uh but it does that hungary and so on uh but it does that hungary and so on uh but it does that that remains the block that remains the block that remains the block where europe doesn't it's not likely the where europe doesn't it's not likely the where europe doesn't it's not likely the crusaders go along that step you know crusaders go along that step you know crusaders go along that step you know marauding their way all the way to marauding their way all the way to marauding their way all the way to um you know modern beijing it's for the most part i think you're it's for the most part i think you're right i think that that great stepland right i think that that great stepland right i think that that great stepland is a barrier and it's not um is a barrier and it's not um is a barrier and it's not um it doesn't become a it doesn't become a it doesn't become a uh a conduit west to east it's only ever uh a conduit west to east it's only ever uh a conduit west to east it's only ever really east to west really east to west really east to west one of the really interesting periods of one of the really interesting periods of one of the really interesting periods of history i think is the one where you history i think is the one where you history i think is the one where you know it it's analogous i think to the know it it's analogous i think to the know it it's analogous i think to the american so-called conquest of the old american so-called conquest of the old american so-called conquest of the old west when the the russians begin to push west when the the russians begin to push west when the the russians begin to push you know 16th century 17th century they you know 16th century 17th century they you know 16th century 17th century they begin to push east going after the begin to push east going after the begin to push east going after the various step tribes in that direction various step tribes in that direction various step tribes in that direction and and the chinese simultaneously are and and the chinese simultaneously are and and the chinese simultaneously are pushing west and it's only with the pushing west and it's only with the pushing west and it's only with the change in technology or whatever that change in technology or whatever that change in technology or whatever that they're able to master this weapon they're able to master this weapon they're able to master this weapon system that had dominated that area and system that had dominated that area and system that had dominated that area and kept those powers out for millennia uh kept those powers out for millennia uh kept those powers out for millennia uh let me shift a little bit because i got let me shift a little bit because i got let me shift a little bit because i got another interesting people and i really another interesting people and i really another interesting people and i really want your take on it because i've never want your take on it because i've never want your take on it because i've never known how to classify them or put them known how to classify them or put them known how to classify them or put them into the proper um into the proper um into the proper um the proper sort of place talk how do we the proper sort of place talk how do we the proper sort of place talk how do we classify normans classify normans classify normans i mean to me this is this is one of the i mean to me this is this is one of the i mean to me this is this is one of the great great i mean for those who don't great great i mean for those who don't great great i mean for those who don't know we have this this group of people know we have this this group of people know we have this this group of people and i'll let i'll let dan explain um the

and i'll let i'll let dan explain um the and i'll let i'll let dan explain um the background or the fusion that's always background or the fusion that's always background or the fusion that's always been you know blamed for creating these been you know blamed for creating these been you know blamed for creating these people but they they arrive on the world people but they they arrive on the world people but they they arrive on the world stage i mean this is a giant play right stage i mean this is a giant play right stage i mean this is a giant play right human history is a giant play you have human history is a giant play you have human history is a giant play you have certain characters you know we have certain characters you know we have certain characters you know we have american soap operas here in the united american soap operas here in the united american soap operas here in the united states states states so we have this giant play and there are so we have this giant play and there are so we have this giant play and there are certain characters that are always there certain characters that are always there certain characters that are always there there's always the chinese there's there's always the chinese there's there's always the chinese there's always you know the persians there's but always you know the persians there's but always you know the persians there's but then there are these these characters then there are these these characters then there are these these characters that come in and are really important to that come in and are really important to that come in and are really important to the story for a short period of time and the story for a short period of time and the story for a short period of time and then just sort of disappear talk to me a then just sort of disappear talk to me a then just sort of disappear talk to me a little bit about the normans in that little bit about the normans in that little bit about the normans in that kind of a context well first we've got to think about what well first we've got to think about what the word actually means yes don't we yes the word actually means yes don't we yes the word actually means yes don't we yes it's connected with it's connected with it's connected with north man and the reason it's it's north man and the reason it's it's north man and the reason it's it's connected with that is because the connected with that is because the connected with that is because the normans you use the word fusion i think normans you use the word fusion i think normans you use the word fusion i think that's exactly the right word the that's exactly the right word the that's exactly the right word the normans are a people who are created in normans are a people who are created in normans are a people who are created in a in a sort of a in a sort of a in a sort of a process like nuclear fusion between a process like nuclear fusion between a process like nuclear fusion between the franks and the vikings the franks and the vikings the franks and the vikings so the franks under charlemagne around so the franks under charlemagne around so the franks under charlemagne around the turn of the eighth into ninth the turn of the eighth into ninth the turn of the eighth into ninth centuries had begun expanding centuries had begun expanding centuries had begun expanding from a state that bridged modern france from a state that bridged modern france from a state that bridged modern france and germany you know it's the original and germany you know it's the original and germany you know it's the original european union it's france germany european union it's france germany european union it's france germany luxembourg austria and northern italy luxembourg austria and northern italy luxembourg austria and northern italy it's it's like the 1950s uh version of it's it's like the 1950s uh version of it's it's like the 1950s uh version of the united of the united of the united of an economically united europe an economically united europe an economically united europe that's the core of the carolingian that's the core of the carolingian that's the core of the carolingian frankish world frankish world frankish world and then there are there's sort of dual

and then there are there's sort of dual and then there are there's sort of dual process process process processes of expansion of the frankish processes of expansion of the frankish processes of expansion of the frankish world south over the pyrenees into uh world south over the pyrenees into uh world south over the pyrenees into uh muslim liberia muslim liberia muslim liberia and then north into the pagan and then north into the pagan and then north into the pagan land of saxony and up up towards what land of saxony and up up towards what land of saxony and up up towards what becomes a danish march a sort of a becomes a danish march a sort of a becomes a danish march a sort of a liminal zone between the the christian liminal zone between the the christian liminal zone between the the christian frankish people of the frankish world frankish people of the frankish world frankish people of the frankish world the carolina frankish world and the the carolina frankish world and the the carolina frankish world and the vikings the scandinavian pagan people of vikings the scandinavian pagan people of vikings the scandinavian pagan people of the north the north the north now now now over time those people over time those people over time those people start to come into more and more regular start to come into more and more regular start to come into more and more regular contact with one another and i'm quite contact with one another and i'm quite contact with one another and i'm quite persuaded by the line of thought that persuaded by the line of thought that persuaded by the line of thought that says the reason you start to see viking says the reason you start to see viking says the reason you start to see viking raids raids raids in you know the reason the vikings set in you know the reason the vikings set in you know the reason the vikings set up at lindisfarne and up at lindisfarne and up at lindisfarne and in the mountains of rivers all you know in the mountains of rivers all you know in the mountains of rivers all you know down modern france down modern france down modern france at the end of the eighth century is at the end of the eighth century is at the end of the eighth century is because because because the franks are starting to make the franks are starting to make the franks are starting to make themselves known you know make themselves known you know make themselves known you know make themselves known as a themselves known as a themselves known as a a wealthy people who like to build a wealthy people who like to build a wealthy people who like to build monasteries i undefended uh wealthy monasteries i undefended uh wealthy monasteries i undefended uh wealthy places that are easy to rate so places that are easy to rate so places that are easy to rate so anyway the bigger point is little by anyway the bigger point is little by anyway the bigger point is little by little franks and the vikings come into little franks and the vikings come into little franks and the vikings come into more and more regular contact with one more and more regular contact with one more and more regular contact with one another so that by the end of the ninth another so that by the end of the ninth another so that by the end of the ninth century there's constant viking raiding century there's constant viking raiding century there's constant viking raiding into the frankish world and a succession into the frankish world and a succession into the frankish world and a succession of frankish kings have to sort of of frankish kings have to sort of of frankish kings have to sort of scratch their heads and wonder what on scratch their heads and wonder what on scratch their heads and wonder what on earth they're going to do about this

earth they're going to do about this earth they're going to do about this this is sort of settled this is sort of settled this is sort of settled eventually with the creation of normandy eventually with the creation of normandy eventually with the creation of normandy with the award with the award with the award of land around the river seine and the of land around the river seine and the of land around the river seine and the city of uh you know the important city city of uh you know the important city city of uh you know the important city of what's now ruin of what's now ruin of what's now ruin this is settled upon this is settled upon this is settled upon effectively effectively effectively a bunch of vikings and they're a bunch of vikings and they're a bunch of vikings and they're the appeasement of the vikings is by the appeasement of the vikings is by the appeasement of the vikings is by giving them a little portion of the giving them a little portion of the giving them a little portion of the franco state in which to live franco state in which to live franco state in which to live now now now their accommodation with the frankish their accommodation with the frankish their accommodation with the frankish world world world is most notably conversion to is most notably conversion to is most notably conversion to christianity and then over over a few christianity and then over over a few christianity and then over over a few generations you know by the time we get generations you know by the time we get generations you know by the time we get to the the middle of the 11th century to the the middle of the 11th century to the the middle of the 11th century you have a sort of quite unique people you have a sort of quite unique people you have a sort of quite unique people the people that produce the people that produce the people that produce famously william the conqueror the famously william the conqueror the famously william the conqueror the bastard of normandy who invades england bastard of normandy who invades england bastard of normandy who invades england or robert giscard and uh and count roger or robert giscard and uh and count roger or robert giscard and uh and count roger of sicily down in southern italy and of sicily down in southern italy and of sicily down in southern italy and sicily sicily sicily and scourges of byzantium and popes all and scourges of byzantium and popes all and scourges of byzantium and popes all at the same time at the same time at the same time but really what are these normans they but really what are these normans they but really what are these normans they are a are a are a hybrid of hybrid of hybrid of franks christian but quite warlike franks christian but quite warlike franks christian but quite warlike franks franks franks and vikings you know out and out uh and vikings you know out and out uh and vikings you know out and out uh traveler traveler traveler robber robber robber pillager pillager pillager uh trader and this i try yes and trader uh trader and this i try yes and trader uh trader and this i try yes and trader of course you mustn't forget trader uh of course you mustn't forget trader uh of course you mustn't forget trader uh after they pillaged you they'll trade after they pillaged you they'll trade after they pillaged you they'll trade with you that's right wonderful news um with you that's right wonderful news um with you that's right wonderful news um so these but they're an extraordinary

so these but they're an extraordinary so these but they're an extraordinary people people people i i i i here in england where i'm sitting i here in england where i'm sitting i here in england where i'm sitting right now 1066 is you know one of those right now 1066 is you know one of those right now 1066 is you know one of those turning point dates in history it's one turning point dates in history it's one turning point dates in history it's one of the biggest states in the whole of of the biggest states in the whole of of the biggest states in the whole of english history um better known even english history um better known even english history um better known even um um um than than than our loss of the american colonies you our loss of the american colonies you our loss of the american colonies you know we're still much more hung up on know we're still much more hung up on know we're still much more hung up on the invasion by um the invasion by um the invasion by um by william duke of normandy than we are by william duke of normandy than we are by william duke of normandy than we are by by by the sort of the sort of the sort of the the the you know the loss of the colonies so you know the loss of the colonies so you know the loss of the colonies so uh the normans get about but it's not uh the normans get about but it's not uh the normans get about but it's not just england because as i've i've just just england because as i've i've just just england because as i've i've just mentioned it's also mentioned it's also mentioned it's also southern italy and i think the arrival southern italy and i think the arrival southern italy and i think the arrival of the normans in southern italy and the of the normans in southern italy and the of the normans in southern italy and the norman conquest of arab sicily norman conquest of arab sicily norman conquest of arab sicily is as is is as is is as is a judgingly important historical moment a judgingly important historical moment a judgingly important historical moment because because because it becomes it becomes it becomes that those norman territories in that those norman territories in that those norman territories in southern indian sicily become pivotal to southern indian sicily become pivotal to southern indian sicily become pivotal to the crusades and i think the crusades the crusades and i think the crusades the crusades and i think the crusades 30 years on 30 years on 30 years on from the norman conquest the first from the norman conquest the first from the norman conquest the first crusade that really is a historical crusade that really is a historical crusade that really is a historical turning point that's something that turning point that's something that turning point that's something that everybody everybody everybody in the whole of the western in the whole of the western in the whole of the western european world hears about 1066 in european world hears about 1066 in european world hears about 1066 in england is is not in that order of england is is not in that order of england is is not in that order of magnitude at all the fall of jerusalem magnitude at all the fall of jerusalem magnitude at all the fall of jerusalem in 1099 to ephraim yes the franks but

in 1099 to ephraim yes the franks but in 1099 to ephraim yes the franks but driven by the normans you know uh driven by the normans you know uh driven by the normans you know uh beaumont and uh and crew at the heart of beaumont and uh and crew at the heart of beaumont and uh and crew at the heart of them them them um i think you know i think i think the um i think you know i think i think the um i think you know i think i think the expansion the creation normandy and the expansion the creation normandy and the expansion the creation normandy and the expansion of the normans into other expansion of the normans into other expansion of the normans into other parts of europe that's that's a really parts of europe that's that's a really parts of europe that's that's a really central part of the heart of the story central part of the heart of the story central part of the heart of the story of the high middle ages of the high middle ages of the high middle ages there are some interesting historical there are some interesting historical there are some interesting historical ironies if i'm not if i it's funny you ironies if i'm not if i it's funny you ironies if i'm not if i it's funny you don't you want to mention these don't you want to mention these don't you want to mention these historical ironies but then you catch historical ironies but then you catch historical ironies but then you catch yourself and say okay is this a real yourself and say okay is this a real yourself and say okay is this a real historical irony or is this something historical irony or is this something historical irony or is this something that just appears that way you know that just appears that way you know that just appears that way you know looking back from our modern eyes but looking back from our modern eyes but looking back from our modern eyes but for example here you have these frankish for example here you have these frankish for example here you have these frankish people that are continually um people that are continually um people that are continually um tying themselves to ancient roman sort tying themselves to ancient roman sort tying themselves to ancient roman sort of behavior the franks themselves come of behavior the franks themselves come of behavior the franks themselves come into possession of the territories into possession of the territories into possession of the territories they're in because of roman policies they're in because of roman policies they're in because of roman policies that brought barbarian people in and that brought barbarian people in and that brought barbarian people in and made deals with them right you defend made deals with them right you defend made deals with them right you defend this territory for the emperor and you this territory for the emperor and you this territory for the emperor and you can have it well now you have the franks can have it well now you have the franks can have it well now you have the franks who are hundreds of years later who are hundreds of years later who are hundreds of years later essentially adopting the same policy essentially adopting the same policy essentially adopting the same policy with these viking peoples you can have a with these viking peoples you can have a with these viking peoples you can have a little of our frankish territory which little of our frankish territory which little of our frankish territory which was originally given to us by the romans was originally given to us by the romans was originally given to us by the romans so we could defend it so you can defend so we could defend it so you can defend so we could defend it so you can defend it and they just did what the franks did it and they just did what the franks did it and they just did what the franks did too and ended up creating their own too and ended up creating their own too and ended up creating their own empire um based in normandy but it's empire um based in normandy but it's empire um based in normandy but it's it's interesting because it's not like it's interesting because it's not like it's interesting because it's not like the other empire so if you think about the other empire so if you think about the other empire so if you think about like a frankish empire in what's now like a frankish empire in what's now like a frankish empire in what's now modern-day france morphing into france modern-day france morphing into france modern-day france morphing into france if you think about uh uh what becomes if you think about uh uh what becomes if you think about uh uh what becomes the holy roman empire morphing into the holy roman empire morphing into the holy roman empire morphing into germany but the normans are more like a germany but the normans are more like a germany but the normans are more like a free agent people if you will like the

free agent people if you will like the free agent people if you will like the first question someone should have when first question someone should have when first question someone should have when you say the normans in sicily is you go you say the normans in sicily is you go you say the normans in sicily is you go wait a minute how did the normans find wait a minute how did the normans find wait a minute how did the normans find themselves in sicily and are these themselves in sicily and are these themselves in sicily and are these norman soldiers or are these so in other norman soldiers or are these so in other norman soldiers or are these so in other words trying to figure out and relate words trying to figure out and relate words trying to figure out and relate them to peoples i mean i was trying to them to peoples i mean i was trying to them to peoples i mean i was trying to figure out what the proper word for figure out what the proper word for figure out what the proper word for normans is do you call normans a tribe normans is do you call normans a tribe normans is do you call normans a tribe do you call them a family are they like do you call them a family are they like do you call them a family are they like proto-habsburgs they go around proto-habsburgs they go around proto-habsburgs they go around everywhere and rule multiple you had everywhere and rule multiple you had everywhere and rule multiple you had mentioned at one point that that you mentioned at one point that that you mentioned at one point that that you have normans who are up at the wall uh have normans who are up at the wall uh have normans who are up at the wall uh between the the scottish and and english between the the scottish and and english between the the scottish and and english borders up at hadrian's wall borders up at hadrian's wall borders up at hadrian's wall at the same time that they're all the at the same time that they're all the at the same time that they're all the way down at sicily they're moving way down at sicily they're moving way down at sicily they're moving towards the middle east i mean who are towards the middle east i mean who are towards the middle east i mean who are these guys and and who makes up the these guys and and who makes up the these guys and and who makes up the soldier i mean is there a norman ethnic soldier i mean is there a norman ethnic soldier i mean is there a norman ethnic group how does one how does one put them group how does one how does one put them group how does one how does one put them in the normal boxes we're used to in the normal boxes we're used to in the normal boxes we're used to working with working with working with yeah i mean it's interesting i think yeah i mean it's interesting i think yeah i mean it's interesting i think part of this i'd be interested to know part of this i'd be interested to know part of this i'd be interested to know what you think about this what you think about this what you think about this isn't part of it just the fact that uh isn't part of it just the fact that uh isn't part of it just the fact that uh by accident of history by accident of history by accident of history there there aren't really norman there's there there aren't really norman there's there there aren't really norman there's not a sort of autonomous normandy not a sort of autonomous normandy not a sort of autonomous normandy anymore because we could say the same anymore because we could say the same anymore because we could say the same for the burgundians for the burgundians for the burgundians you know that or um or you know that or um or you know that or um or maybe even the gas guns you know these maybe even the gas guns you know these maybe even the gas guns you know these these people from different regions that these people from different regions that these people from different regions that have since been swallowed up yeah do you have since been swallowed up yeah do you have since been swallowed up yeah do you say they're absorbed maybe i mean is say they're absorbed maybe i mean is say they're absorbed maybe i mean is that the or do they do is absorbed or that the or do they do is absorbed or that the or do they do is absorbed or die out better i mean how does one die out better i mean how does one die out better i mean how does one associated associated associated they they are um they they are um they they are um i mean the history of normandy i mean the history of normandy i mean the history of normandy normandy's rolled into france isn't it normandy's rolled into france isn't it normandy's rolled into france isn't it after 1204 right because the normans

after 1204 right because the normans after 1204 right because the normans become kings of england and then it become kings of england and then it become kings of england and then it splits up again but by and large in the splits up again but by and large in the splits up again but by and large in the early plantagenet era early plantagenet era early plantagenet era the normans have become kings and so the the normans have become kings and so the the normans have become kings and so the the duchy of normandy is no longer the the duchy of normandy is no longer the the duchy of normandy is no longer the grander of grandest of their possessions grander of grandest of their possessions grander of grandest of their possessions uh they've also fused with accounts of uh they've also fused with accounts of uh they've also fused with accounts of you know in the plantations you have you know in the plantations you have you know in the plantations you have dukes of normandy council vong you and dukes of normandy council vong you and dukes of normandy council vong you and then they they take on equity then they they take on equity then they they take on equity and they're ruling england but france is and they're ruling england but france is and they're ruling england but france is the language french is the language they the language french is the language they the language french is the language they speak to each other correct french speak to each other correct french speak to each other correct french they're ruling england yeah so they're ruling england yeah so they're ruling england yeah so but but by this time we but but by this time we but but by this time we we're not really talking about them in we're not really talking about them in we're not really talking about them in terms of a people or a tribe we're not terms of a people or a tribe we're not terms of a people or a tribe we're not in that barbarian era anymore because in that barbarian era anymore because in that barbarian era anymore because really we've switched our our thinking really we've switched our our thinking really we've switched our our thinking as historians by this point uh to as historians by this point uh to as historians by this point uh to thinking about ruling dynasties thinking about ruling dynasties thinking about ruling dynasties and so when we talk about the normans and so when we talk about the normans and so when we talk about the normans are in you know in the early in the late are in you know in the early in the late are in you know in the early in the late 12th century early 13th century 12th century early 13th century 12th century early 13th century what we really mean is a very small what we really mean is a very small what we really mean is a very small aristocratic you know a tiny aristocratic you know a tiny aristocratic you know a tiny royal family a very small aristocratic royal family a very small aristocratic royal family a very small aristocratic group connected to that family and and group connected to that family and and group connected to that family and and really you could be anybody really you could be anybody really you could be anybody as long as you're connected to the duke as long as you're connected to the duke as long as you're connected to the duke of normandy then you're quite unquote a of normandy then you're quite unquote a of normandy then you're quite unquote a norman norman norman um and similarly in in the south you um and similarly in in the south you um and similarly in in the south you know count roger of uh of sicily well know count roger of uh of sicily well know count roger of uh of sicily well before he's count roger of sicily he's a before he's count roger of sicily he's a before he's count roger of sicily he's a norman dude in this in southern italy norman dude in this in southern italy norman dude in this in southern italy but once he becomes count roger of but once he becomes count roger of but once he becomes count roger of sicily and then subsequently you know sicily and then subsequently you know sicily and then subsequently you know king roger the second of sicily king roger the second of sicily king roger the second of sicily um um um the the fact of normanness is now uh

the the fact of normanness is now uh the the fact of normanness is now uh hidden underneath the grander title of hidden underneath the grander title of hidden underneath the grander title of king of sicily or you know whatever it king of sicily or you know whatever it king of sicily or you know whatever it happens to be happens to be happens to be um and because we're not talking about um and because we're not talking about um and because we're not talking about tribal groups anymore because we can we tribal groups anymore because we can we tribal groups anymore because we can we can can can draw in much clearer detail as draw in much clearer detail as draw in much clearer detail as historians historians historians the the the the the the pictures the portraits pictures the portraits pictures the portraits you know the pen portraits i mean of of you know the pen portraits i mean of of you know the pen portraits i mean of of ruling individuals we stop really being ruling individuals we stop really being ruling individuals we stop really being concerned with concerned with concerned with peoples in general and start peoples in general and start peoples in general and start concentrating on people in specific now concentrating on people in specific now concentrating on people in specific now that that that ought to lead us to think well hang on a ought to lead us to think well hang on a ought to lead us to think well hang on a second then when we're in the barbarian second then when we're in the barbarian second then when we're in the barbarian period and we're talking about the period and we're talking about the period and we're talking about the franks the burgundians the visigoths the franks the burgundians the visigoths the franks the burgundians the visigoths the ostrogoths ostrogoths ostrogoths are we are we really talking about a are we are we really talking about a are we are we really talking about a people who are going around singing hey people who are going around singing hey people who are going around singing hey ho we're the franks hey ho we're the ho we're the franks hey ho we're the ho we're the franks hey ho we're the visigoths watch out for us mate visigoths watch out for us mate visigoths watch out for us mate are these just historical terms we have are these just historical terms we have are these just historical terms we have to use because of the paucity of to use because of the paucity of to use because of the paucity of evidence we're just aware that a group evidence we're just aware that a group evidence we're just aware that a group of people are ruling groups people moved of people are ruling groups people moved of people are ruling groups people moved into a certain area this is a problem of um this is a problem of um of wildly different evidence i think of wildly different evidence i think of wildly different evidence i think between the early middle ages at the between the early middle ages at the between the early middle ages at the high slash later middle ages high slash later middle ages high slash later middle ages it's funny because when we think we just it's funny because when we think we just it's funny because when we think we just mentioned the arab conquest earlier and mentioned the arab conquest earlier and mentioned the arab conquest earlier and when you think about that military terms when you think about that military terms when you think about that military terms there's like a domino effect where there's like a domino effect where there's like a domino effect where they'll conquer people and they become they'll conquer people and they become they'll conquer people and they become larger and larger and more powerful and larger and larger and more powerful and larger and larger and more powerful and more capable and but the normans are more capable and but the normans are more capable and but the normans are kind of an opposite sort of thing and kind of an opposite sort of thing and kind of an opposite sort of thing and and i'm trying to figure out what and i'm trying to figure out what and i'm trying to figure out what accounts for their success like over the accounts for their success like over the accounts for their success like over the eras the the viewpoint had changed i

eras the the viewpoint had changed i eras the the viewpoint had changed i remember when when we used to war game remember when when we used to war game remember when when we used to war game the normans they always tried to figure the normans they always tried to figure the normans they always tried to figure out some sort of war gaming uh advantage out some sort of war gaming uh advantage out some sort of war gaming uh advantage you can give them to try to to try to you can give them to try to to try to you can give them to try to to try to provide on the battlefield some provide on the battlefield some provide on the battlefield some semblance semblance semblance that that um that displayed the fact that that um that displayed the fact that that um that displayed the fact that these guys are doing amazing things that these guys are doing amazing things that these guys are doing amazing things i mean if you read the byzantine i mean if you read the byzantine i mean if you read the byzantine chroniclers for example who thought all chroniclers for example who thought all chroniclers for example who thought all franks were were irresistible chargers franks were were irresistible chargers franks were were irresistible chargers and whatnot but but even they seem and whatnot but but even they seem and whatnot but but even they seem impressed by normans and norman leaders impressed by normans and norman leaders impressed by normans and norman leaders and whatnot talk to me a little bit and whatnot talk to me a little bit and whatnot talk to me a little bit about what might explain about what might explain about what might explain um a relatively small number of people um a relatively small number of people um a relatively small number of people the normans are not some giant state the normans are not some giant state the normans are not some giant state they're not creating the same sort of they're not creating the same sort of they're not creating the same sort of domino effect and absorbing other domino effect and absorbing other domino effect and absorbing other people's as step peoples did as the people's as step peoples did as the people's as step peoples did as the arabs did arabs did arabs did what the heck did these guys bring to what the heck did these guys bring to what the heck did these guys bring to the table whether it's on a personal the table whether it's on a personal the table whether it's on a personal level a personality level or a military level a personality level or a military level a personality level or a military level that might account for this level that might account for this level that might account for this success success success well i think on a personal personality well i think on a personal personality well i think on a personal personality level uh level uh level uh it's always tempting to see the kind of it's always tempting to see the kind of it's always tempting to see the kind of viking outwardly mobile viking outwardly mobile viking outwardly mobile mentality right describe what these guys mentality right describe what these guys mentality right describe what these guys looked like for a second describe what looked like for a second describe what looked like for a second describe what what what the byzantines were seeing what what the byzantines were seeing what what the byzantines were seeing when they ran into normans as people you when they ran into normans as people you when they ran into normans as people you know so so the the best images that we know so so the the best images that we know so so the the best images that we have and particularly you could tell a have and particularly you could tell a have and particularly you could tell a norman by the sort of long teardrop norman by the sort of long teardrop norman by the sort of long teardrop shaped shield but they look like dolph shaped shield but they look like dolph shaped shield but they look like dolph lundgren don't they the descriptions of lundgren don't they the descriptions of lundgren don't they the descriptions of it yeah right it yeah right it yeah right well then well then well then anaconda writes about beaumont oh bomb anaconda writes about beaumont oh bomb anaconda writes about beaumont oh bomb on the toronto on the toronto on the toronto uh you know uh you know uh you know one of the most prominent normans among one of the most prominent normans among one of the most prominent normans among the first crusaders oh sure i mean

the first crusaders oh sure i mean the first crusaders oh sure i mean there's she's there's she's there's she's so conflicted in her account of beaumont so conflicted in her account of beaumont so conflicted in her account of beaumont because on the one hand he's a he's a because on the one hand he's a he's a because on the one hand he's a he's a bastard but on the other hand he's super bastard but on the other hand he's super bastard but on the other hand he's super handsome and he's got his broad chest handsome and he's got his broad chest handsome and he's got his broad chest and he's really really quite dishy and he's really really quite dishy and he's really really quite dishy and short and short blonde hair and and short and short blonde hair and and short and short blonde hair and clean shaven i mean what the heck is clean shaven i mean what the heck is clean shaven i mean what the heck is that that that come on he's he's sort of he's a model come on he's he's sort of he's a model come on he's he's sort of he's a model but i look i think in your in your war but i look i think in your in your war but i look i think in your in your war game game game or certainly in england look at the or certainly in england look at the or certainly in england look at the normal conquest in england in your war normal conquest in england in your war normal conquest in england in your war game it's castles norman's a great game it's castles norman's a great game it's castles norman's a great castle builders yeah that's that's their castle builders yeah that's that's their castle builders yeah that's that's their their military that's their super their military that's their super their military that's their super super source isn't it they come super source isn't it they come super source isn't it they come very well organized uh and very capable very well organized uh and very capable very well organized uh and very capable of building these these fortifications of building these these fortifications of building these these fortifications which house bodies of of knights which house bodies of of knights which house bodies of of knights who are who are who are similar to frankish knights you know the similar to frankish knights you know the similar to frankish knights you know the frankish night as the byzantine frankish night as the byzantine frankish night as the byzantine chronicles you're talking about um chronicles you're talking about um chronicles you're talking about um make a hole through the walls of babylon make a hole through the walls of babylon make a hole through the walls of babylon right and that's the line through the right and that's the line through the right and that's the line through the walls of babylon yeah that that frankish walls of babylon yeah that that frankish walls of babylon yeah that that frankish charge you know couched lance charge charge you know couched lance charge charge you know couched lance charge that's dangerous that's that's a that's dangerous that's that's a that's dangerous that's that's a battlefield leveler against the battlefield leveler against the battlefield leveler against the traditional sort of lights cavalry traditional sort of lights cavalry traditional sort of lights cavalry mounted art shows can uh feign retreats mounted art shows can uh feign retreats mounted art shows can uh feign retreats and then pepper you and you're going to and then pepper you and you're going to and then pepper you and you're going to chase it chase it chase it but i think that you know the normans in but i think that you know the normans in but i think that you know the normans in england it's it's castle building that's england it's it's castle building that's england it's it's castle building that's their their their don't you think don't you think don't you think well i do except you have a hard time well i do except you have a hard time well i do except you have a hard time sometimes trying to put into perspective sometimes trying to put into perspective sometimes trying to put into perspective i mean if if annoy you know this is the i mean if if annoy you know this is the i mean if if annoy you know this is the kind of conversations you'd have on a

kind of conversations you'd have on a kind of conversations you'd have on a wargaming table i apologize to people wargaming table i apologize to people wargaming table i apologize to people but i mean you would sit here and say but i mean you would sit here and say but i mean you would sit here and say something like okay is is a norman just something like okay is is a norman just something like okay is is a norman just another night and are knights the people another night and are knights the people another night and are knights the people that we consider to have this see that we consider to have this see that we consider to have this see everything is rock paper scissors i'm everything is rock paper scissors i'm everything is rock paper scissors i'm talking to the audience now but talking to the audience now but talking to the audience now but everything is rock paper scissors when everything is rock paper scissors when everything is rock paper scissors when it comes to this kind of warfare because it comes to this kind of warfare because it comes to this kind of warfare because we can extol the value of a western we can extol the value of a western we can extol the value of a western knight for example in hand-to-hand knight for example in hand-to-hand knight for example in hand-to-hand combat or charging through the walls of combat or charging through the walls of combat or charging through the walls of babylon as the as the byzantine uh babylon as the as the byzantine uh babylon as the as the byzantine uh chronicler said and yet that's useless chronicler said and yet that's useless chronicler said and yet that's useless against a a magyar or an avar or a hun against a a magyar or an avar or a hun against a a magyar or an avar or a hun if you can't catch them or a saracen in if you can't catch them or a saracen in if you can't catch them or a saracen in the holy land so everything is sort of the holy land so everything is sort of the holy land so everything is sort of the rock paper scissors kind of thing the rock paper scissors kind of thing the rock paper scissors kind of thing what i can't figure out is if a norman what i can't figure out is if a norman what i can't figure out is if a norman knight is no better than a frankish knight is no better than a frankish knight is no better than a frankish knight then then how does one knight then then how does one knight then then how does one differentiate i mean there's so many differentiate i mean there's so many differentiate i mean there's so many more frankish knights right and they more frankish knights right and they more frankish knights right and they build castles too and they all use the build castles too and they all use the build castles too and they all use the same weaponry so you try to figure out same weaponry so you try to figure out same weaponry so you try to figure out see in the old days see in the old days see in the old days when people would talk about different when people would talk about different when people would talk about different ethnic groups having different ethnic groups having different ethnic groups having different tendencies they would talk about you tendencies they would talk about you tendencies they would talk about you know 100 years ago they would say the know 100 years ago they would say the know 100 years ago they would say the normans were possessed with the spirit normans were possessed with the spirit normans were possessed with the spirit of their viking ancestors and the same of their viking ancestors and the same of their viking ancestors and the same sort you know and they're trying to sort you know and they're trying to sort you know and they're trying to explain what accounts for this dominance explain what accounts for this dominance explain what accounts for this dominance um 15 years ago they would have talked um 15 years ago they would have talked um 15 years ago they would have talked about economic differences and and savvy about economic differences and and savvy about economic differences and and savvy you know capitalist traders i mean you know capitalist traders i mean you know capitalist traders i mean i'm still trying to figure out how you i'm still trying to figure out how you i'm still trying to figure out how you explain the rise of a people that don't explain the rise of a people that don't explain the rise of a people that don't have the traditional sorts of things have the traditional sorts of things have the traditional sorts of things that one would look at an economic base that one would look at an economic base that one would look at an economic base a population base a religious a population base a religious a population base a religious explanation they seem like they they

explanation they seem like they they explanation they seem like they they seem like they shouldn't be where they seem like they shouldn't be where they seem like they shouldn't be where they are if that makes sense are if that makes sense are if that makes sense and yet there but then maybe you know and yet there but then maybe you know and yet there but then maybe you know this is this has been super this is this has been super this is this has been super unfashionable for a long time but i just unfashionable for a long time but i just unfashionable for a long time but i just have a sense it might be coming back have a sense it might be coming back have a sense it might be coming back this great man theory of history which this great man theory of history which this great man theory of history which we will great person theory of history we will great person theory of history we will great person theory of history let's call it now let's call it now let's call it now um we've been we've been we haven't um we've been we've been we haven't um we've been we've been we haven't almost beaten out of us haven't we yes almost beaten out of us haven't we yes almost beaten out of us haven't we yes beaten out of us is a good way to put it beaten out of us is a good way to put it beaten out of us is a good way to put it it's not that however i have this little it's not that however i have this little it's not that however i have this little suspicion that into the next the suspicion that into the next the suspicion that into the next the historical trends to come around as historical trends to come around as historical trends to come around as we've already discussed and in a society we've already discussed and in a society we've already discussed and in a society as we live in now which is super super as we live in now which is super super as we live in now which is super super super individualistic and completely super individualistic and completely super individualistic and completely focused on the you know the focused on the you know the focused on the you know the the the individual as being the most the the individual as being the most the the individual as being the most important thing and society is being important thing and society is being important thing and society is being really not very important at all unless really not very important at all unless really not very important at all unless it bends specifically to the will of the it bends specifically to the will of the it bends specifically to the will of the individual and of course we're living individual and of course we're living individual and of course we're living politically in an age of strong men and politically in an age of strong men and politically in an age of strong men and uh and would be tyrants this the influence of the sort of this the influence of the sort of remarkable individual might just be remarkable individual might just be remarkable individual might just be coming back into fashion and history and coming back into fashion and history and coming back into fashion and history and i don't think that that's necessarily a i don't think that that's necessarily a i don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing because bad thing because bad thing because what are we really talking about in what are we really talking about in what are we really talking about in terms of the normans who are the ones terms of the normans who are the ones terms of the normans who are the ones who who is it makes these great plays who who is it makes these great plays who who is it makes these great plays that puts them out there well in england that puts them out there well in england that puts them out there well in england william the conqueror all bets are off william the conqueror all bets are off william the conqueror all bets are off for a norman conquest of england without for a norman conquest of england without for a norman conquest of england without william the conqueror william the conqueror william the conqueror i find very hard to imagine i find very hard to imagine i find very hard to imagine not you know not just the sort of not you know not just the sort of not you know not just the sort of military organization but then the the military organization but then the the military organization but then the the vision vision vision to completely

to completely to completely redesign redesign redesign england to move the bishop bricks about england to move the bishop bricks about england to move the bishop bricks about to bring across this new sort of to bring across this new sort of to bring across this new sort of colonizing group now that is the colonizing group now that is the colonizing group now that is the brainchild brainchild brainchild of one of one of one extraordinary leader and similarly down extraordinary leader and similarly down extraordinary leader and similarly down in sicily we are talking about a pair of in sicily we are talking about a pair of in sicily we are talking about a pair of brothers robert giscard and brothers robert giscard and brothers robert giscard and roger roger roger it's funny too because energy was the it's funny too because energy was the it's funny too because energy was the word i recall hearing when i was young word i recall hearing when i was young word i recall hearing when i was young energy the normans had such energy energy the normans had such energy energy the normans had such energy they had energy but maybe just like they had energy but maybe just like they had energy but maybe just like a few of them had some energy a few of them had some energy a few of them had some energy guess what they went and did right and guess what they went and did right and guess what they went and did right and and after that and after that and after that who knows it was it's uh is it as you who knows it was it's uh is it as you who knows it was it's uh is it as you were saying is it really the normans at were saying is it really the normans at were saying is it really the normans at all i mean certainly the arab well all i mean certainly the arab well all i mean certainly the arab well again as you're saying the arabs again as you're saying the arabs again as you're saying the arabs couldn't tell the difference could they couldn't tell the difference could they couldn't tell the difference could they not really they say well they're all the not really they say well they're all the not really they say well they're all the friend franks they all look the same to friend franks they all look the same to friend franks they all look the same to me they all look the same to me me they all look the same to me me they all look the same to me so let's let's talk for a minute because so let's let's talk for a minute because so let's let's talk for a minute because we had mentioned earlier um uh looking we had mentioned earlier um uh looking we had mentioned earlier um uh looking back and and back and and back and and taking you know what was the line from taking you know what was the line from taking you know what was the line from the ohio state historian right that that the ohio state historian right that that the ohio state historian right that that history is the present politics history is the present politics history is the present politics projected onto the past and we talked projected onto the past and we talked projected onto the past and we talked about climate change there's another one about climate change there's another one about climate change there's another one though that i found you know and it's though that i found you know and it's though that i found you know and it's funny because we've talked extensively funny because we've talked extensively funny because we've talked extensively about this too so it's funny how on one about this too so it's funny how on one about this too so it's funny how on one level you can know about it and on level you can know about it and on level you can know about it and on another level not think about it but um another level not think about it but um another level not think about it but um i mean you you had gone into the i mean you you had gone into the i mean you you had gone into the justinian plague so well let's talk justinian plague so well let's talk justinian plague so well let's talk everybody knows about the black death everybody knows about the black death everybody knows about the black death and and but the justinian plague is and and but the justinian plague is and and but the justinian plague is really isn't that the black death part really isn't that the black death part really isn't that the black death part one or or if this if this is a movie one or or if this if this is a movie one or or if this if this is a movie trilogy the black death is the original trilogy the black death is the original trilogy the black death is the original godfather or exorcist or jaws let's talk

godfather or exorcist or jaws let's talk godfather or exorcist or jaws let's talk a little bit about that and maybe give a little bit about that and maybe give a little bit about that and maybe give us an idea because these people in the us an idea because these people in the us an idea because these people in the time of the justinian plague are time of the justinian plague are time of the justinian plague are accustomed to disease being a terrible accustomed to disease being a terrible accustomed to disease being a terrible and regular occurrence but how does and regular occurrence but how does and regular occurrence but how does something like that stand out in an era something like that stand out in an era something like that stand out in an era where they're accustomed to to uh where they're accustomed to to uh where they're accustomed to to uh pandemics pandemics pandemics or or terrible disease outbreaks or or terrible disease outbreaks or or terrible disease outbreaks the justinianic plague in the sixth the justinianic plague in the sixth the justinianic plague in the sixth century unnamed for uh the the great century unnamed for uh the the great century unnamed for uh the the great byzantine emperor justinian byzantine emperor justinian byzantine emperor justinian is a form of is a form of is a form of yesenia pestis it's this it's it's yesenia pestis it's this it's it's yesenia pestis it's this it's it's plague it's the same as a black death plague it's the same as a black death plague it's the same as a black death and and and insofar as we can tell because the insofar as we can tell because the insofar as we can tell because the evidence is much scantier for the evidence is much scantier for the evidence is much scantier for the justinian plague and is also justinian plague and is also justinian plague and is also back projected from the black death back projected from the black death back projected from the black death which probably might get into in a which probably might get into in a which probably might get into in a minute minute minute it's it seems to do a similar thing to it's it seems to do a similar thing to it's it seems to do a similar thing to what happens in the 14th century the what happens in the 14th century the what happens in the 14th century the black death which is it mutates and black death which is it mutates and black death which is it mutates and becomes very infectious becomes very infectious becomes very infectious it's i mean it's a just as as covid19 is it's i mean it's a just as as covid19 is it's i mean it's a just as as covid19 is a coronavirus one of a group of viruses a coronavirus one of a group of viruses a coronavirus one of a group of viruses that became incredibly virulent and that became incredibly virulent and that became incredibly virulent and incredibly infectious incredibly infectious incredibly infectious so you sometimes see with plague it just so you sometimes see with plague it just so you sometimes see with plague it just mutates and becomes super super super mutates and becomes super super super mutates and becomes super super super infectious infectious infectious and that's what you have in the sixth and that's what you have in the sixth and that's what you have in the sixth century with the justinianic plague and century with the justinianic plague and century with the justinianic plague and it seems to spread it seems to spread it seems to spread from from from may may may well if i'm sweating to egypt well if i'm sweating to egypt well if i'm sweating to egypt maybe from zanzibar maybe from east maybe from zanzibar maybe from east maybe from zanzibar maybe from east africa it's very very hard to know for africa it's very very hard to know for africa it's very very hard to know for sure

sure sure and then it rips into the and then it rips into the and then it rips into the uh uh uh the byzantine the eastern roman empire the byzantine the eastern roman empire the byzantine the eastern roman empire and you have these accounts from and you have these accounts from and you have these accounts from byzantine chroniclers of byzantine chroniclers of byzantine chroniclers of lockdowns of thousands of people dying lockdowns of thousands of people dying lockdowns of thousands of people dying each day of bodies piling up in the each day of bodies piling up in the each day of bodies piling up in the streets of everybody being complete and streets of everybody being complete and streets of everybody being complete and terrified of catching this disease and terrified of catching this disease and terrified of catching this disease and having you know having you know having you know scarcely enough living to bury the dead scarcely enough living to bury the dead scarcely enough living to bury the dead there is uh there's evidence that the there is uh there's evidence that the there is uh there's evidence that the disease found its way as far afield disease found its way as far afield disease found its way as far afield certainly as germany into western europe certainly as germany into western europe certainly as germany into western europe um um um there is massive there is massive there is massive disparity in the estimates of how many disparity in the estimates of how many disparity in the estimates of how many people died of the justinianic plague people died of the justinianic plague people died of the justinianic plague which ranges from tens of millions to which ranges from tens of millions to which ranges from tens of millions to about a hundred thousand about a hundred thousand about a hundred thousand we just don't know we just don't know we just don't know um the accounts give us the impression um the accounts give us the impression um the accounts give us the impression that this was that this was that this was just as a black death in the 14th just as a black death in the 14th just as a black death in the 14th century was which we do know killed up century was which we do know killed up century was which we do know killed up to 60 percent of populations wherever it to 60 percent of populations wherever it to 60 percent of populations wherever it struck this was pretty apocalyptic struck this was pretty apocalyptic struck this was pretty apocalyptic um traditionally we've you know i think um traditionally we've you know i think um traditionally we've you know i think that the the uh that the the uh that the the uh the the the the historians have been on a journey the historians have been on a journey the historians have been on a journey towards saying well i mean maybe the towards saying well i mean maybe the towards saying well i mean maybe the justinianic plague wasn't as bad as we justinianic plague wasn't as bad as we justinianic plague wasn't as bad as we thought and these these accounts of play thought and these these accounts of play thought and these these accounts of play of pandemic disease do seem very of pandemic disease do seem very of pandemic disease do seem very overblown overblown overblown but i tell you what you read them during but i tell you what you read them during but i tell you what you read them during a global pandemic and suddenly you know a global pandemic and suddenly you know a global pandemic and suddenly you know you're back to thinking well maybe

you're back to thinking well maybe you're back to thinking well maybe actually these guys had a point you know actually these guys had a point you know actually these guys had a point you know i found that certain writing about just i found that certain writing about just i found that certain writing about just indiana plague and and the black death indiana plague and and the black death indiana plague and and the black death during a pandemic during a pandemic during a pandemic it's impossible not to have your it's impossible not to have your it's impossible not to have your perspective as a historian changed perspective as a historian changed perspective as a historian changed let me give the listeners an example of let me give the listeners an example of let me give the listeners an example of your writing here on the justinian your writing here on the justinian your writing here on the justinian plague this is a quote from dan jones's plague this is a quote from dan jones's plague this is a quote from dan jones's book quote john of ephesus was sent off book quote john of ephesus was sent off book quote john of ephesus was sent off by the emperor to baptize pagans in asia by the emperor to baptize pagans in asia by the emperor to baptize pagans in asia minor but he found himself traveling minor but he found himself traveling minor but he found himself traveling through a death zone in town after town through a death zone in town after town through a death zone in town after town the sick and suffering staggered through the sick and suffering staggered through the sick and suffering staggered through the streets their bellies swollen and the streets their bellies swollen and the streets their bellies swollen and mouths hanging open eyes bloodshot pus mouths hanging open eyes bloodshot pus mouths hanging open eyes bloodshot pus leaking from their mouths grand houses leaking from their mouths grand houses leaking from their mouths grand houses in which entire families and their in which entire families and their in which entire families and their servants had died stood silent every servants had died stood silent every servants had died stood silent every room occupied by corpses contorted room occupied by corpses contorted room occupied by corpses contorted bodies lay unburied their midriffs bodies lay unburied their midriffs bodies lay unburied their midriffs rotting and bursting in the heat of the rotting and bursting in the heat of the rotting and bursting in the heat of the day the flesh half eaten by hungry dogs day the flesh half eaten by hungry dogs day the flesh half eaten by hungry dogs the roads and highways were empty the the roads and highways were empty the the roads and highways were empty the usual thrum of trade and traffic usual thrum of trade and traffic usual thrum of trade and traffic interrupted in desolate villages no one interrupted in desolate villages no one interrupted in desolate villages no one was left to harvest crops and fruit was left to harvest crops and fruit was left to harvest crops and fruit trees animals were left unshepherded to trees animals were left unshepherded to trees animals were left unshepherded to roam the countryside as they pleased roam the countryside as they pleased roam the countryside as they pleased end quote um end quote um end quote um that's heavy-duty stuff and all of a that's heavy-duty stuff and all of a that's heavy-duty stuff and all of a sudden makes you feel like the pandemic sudden makes you feel like the pandemic sudden makes you feel like the pandemic you're living in now um well you you you're living in now um well you you you're living in now um well you you become very grateful for modern uh become very grateful for modern uh become very grateful for modern uh medical uh technology don't you medical uh technology don't you medical uh technology don't you yeah you look you sure do and but yeah you look you sure do and but yeah you look you sure do and but let me tell you i mean all of that let me tell you i mean all of that let me tell you i mean all of that passage passage passage that you quoted there

that you quoted there that you quoted there i i've drawn on the reason john of i i've drawn on the reason john of i i've drawn on the reason john of ephesus is presented as the lead ephesus is presented as the lead ephesus is presented as the lead character is that that's that's his character is that that's that's his character is that that's that's his account account account i mean that's just my putting it into i mean that's just my putting it into i mean that's just my putting it into the sequence and so this isn't some sort the sequence and so this isn't some sort the sequence and so this isn't some sort of purple prose flight of fantasy this of purple prose flight of fantasy this of purple prose flight of fantasy this is what your man saw and wrote down is what your man saw and wrote down is what your man saw and wrote down um um um and as a as i say you know i was writing and as a as i say you know i was writing and as a as i say you know i was writing that that that right at this i think i wrote that in right at this i think i wrote that in right at this i think i wrote that in march march march maybe april 2020. so that's that's maybe april 2020. so that's that's maybe april 2020. so that's that's that's peak that's peak that's peak covert terror covert terror covert terror lockdown lockdown lockdown and it's impossible to write that and it's impossible to write that and it's impossible to write that without you know during a pandemic without you know during a pandemic without you know during a pandemic without um feeling a degree more without um feeling a degree more without um feeling a degree more sympathy for john of ephesus than one sympathy for john of ephesus than one sympathy for john of ephesus than one might have done had i written it a year might have done had i written it a year might have done had i written it a year earlier when you began pandemic well you earlier when you began pandemic well you earlier when you began pandemic well you know really kenneth have been quite so know really kenneth have been quite so know really kenneth have been quite so bad bad bad um it's it's um it's it's um it's it's but this goes back to the beginning of but this goes back to the beginning of but this goes back to the beginning of our conversation which is um our conversation which is um our conversation which is um what i don't do in in that chapter that what i don't do in in that chapter that what i don't do in in that chapter that you just quoted is then really push the you just quoted is then really push the you just quoted is then really push the point much point much point much harder and say see see this is just like harder and say see see this is just like harder and say see see this is just like clovid 19. you just let that rise out of clovid 19. you just let that rise out of clovid 19. you just let that rise out of the text and i think anyone i well i the text and i think anyone i well i the text and i think anyone i well i hope hope hope anyone reading that anyone reading that anyone reading that in the next say five ten years will go in the next say five ten years will go in the next say five ten years will go my god yeah that my god yeah that my god yeah that that sounds really familiar man maybe that sounds really familiar man maybe that sounds really familiar man maybe i've got a little more in common with i've got a little more in common with i've got a little more in common with these these medieval people than these these medieval people than these these medieval people than i thought i thought i thought i might have thought i did i wrote a i might have thought i did i wrote a i might have thought i did i wrote a chapter in my book which came out four chapter in my book which came out four chapter in my book which came out four months before the pandemic called months before the pandemic called months before the pandemic called pandemic prologue question mark and then

pandemic prologue question mark and then pandemic prologue question mark and then in four months it was completely in four months it was completely in four months it was completely outdated and obsolete so outdated and obsolete so outdated and obsolete so so so i know exactly what you're talking so so i know exactly what you're talking so so i know exactly what you're talking i would have loved the perspective of i would have loved the perspective of i would have loved the perspective of maybe being able to look at our own time maybe being able to look at our own time maybe being able to look at our own time and draw some comparisons i probably and draw some comparisons i probably and draw some comparisons i probably would have done it in too heavy handed would have done it in too heavy handed would have done it in too heavy handed away so the way you know the way the way away so the way you know the way the way away so the way you know the way the way you did it is wonderful you did it is wonderful you did it is wonderful so but i think you you'd have done you'd so but i think you you'd have done you'd so but i think you you'd have done you'd have done it brilliantly and um because have done it brilliantly and um because have done it brilliantly and um because you're a you're a you're a fantastically skilled historian i think fantastically skilled historian i think fantastically skilled historian i think but i think it is just but i think it is just but i think it is just look when i made that list i told you look when i made that list i told you look when i made that list i told you about climate change mass migration about climate change mass migration about climate change mass migration pandemic disease technological change pandemic disease technological change pandemic disease technological change global networks pandemic disease was global networks pandemic disease was global networks pandemic disease was third on the list for a reason like third on the list for a reason like third on the list for a reason like this was before cobit and i was like it this was before cobit and i was like it this was before cobit and i was like it was actually the um was actually the um was actually the um [Music] [Music] [Music] the thing i thought might be hardest to the thing i thought might be hardest to the thing i thought might be hardest to sell look i knew i was going to have to sell look i knew i was going to have to sell look i knew i was going to have to write about just indiana plague i knew i write about just indiana plague i knew i write about just indiana plague i knew i was going to have to write about the was going to have to write about the was going to have to write about the black death but i was like black death but i was like black death but i was like how am i going to sell this to a 21st how am i going to sell this to a 21st how am i going to sell this to a 21st century audience as being something that century audience as being something that century audience as being something that connects the modern to the medieval when connects the modern to the medieval when connects the modern to the medieval when the closest thing we've had is sars and the closest thing we've had is sars and the closest thing we've had is sars and that's 2004 and that's that's 2004 and that's that's 2004 and that's the far east like is an american the far east like is an american the far east like is an american audience really gonna buy the danger of audience really gonna buy the danger of audience really gonna buy the danger of pandemic pandemic pandemic in the 21st century now in the 21st century now in the 21st century now i was aware that actually uh clever i was aware that actually uh clever i was aware that actually uh clever people in sydney the uk government and i people in sydney the uk government and i people in sydney the uk government and i think in the us government as well who think in the us government as well who think in the us government as well who who are pulling risk assessments for the who are pulling risk assessments for the who are pulling risk assessments for the biggest dangers of the present day we're biggest dangers of the present day we're biggest dangers of the present day we're putting pandemic disease right at the putting pandemic disease right at the putting pandemic disease right at the top but dang i mean i didn't top but dang i mean i didn't top but dang i mean i didn't i didn't see one coming did you no no i didn't see one coming did you no no i didn't see one coming did you no no well i mean i was you know you would

well i mean i was you know you would well i mean i was you know you would hear people like bill gates talking um hear people like bill gates talking um hear people like bill gates talking um for a very long time talking about it's for a very long time talking about it's for a very long time talking about it's a law of averages thing right eventually a law of averages thing right eventually a law of averages thing right eventually you're going to right it's going to turn you're going to right it's going to turn you're going to right it's going to turn the die roll is going to turn up wrong the die roll is going to turn up wrong the die roll is going to turn up wrong and uh and we're going to get unlucky and uh and we're going to get unlucky and uh and we're going to get unlucky and then you hope that your ability to and then you hope that your ability to and then you hope that your ability to to pivot medically speaking can help you to pivot medically speaking can help you to pivot medically speaking can help you avoid this sort of tragedy uh john of avoid this sort of tragedy uh john of avoid this sort of tragedy uh john of ephesus was writing about um so so maybe ephesus was writing about um so so maybe ephesus was writing about um so so maybe now because we've we've now because we've we've now because we've we've we've dealt with a bunch of different we've dealt with a bunch of different we've dealt with a bunch of different things and i'm jumping around but but things and i'm jumping around but but things and i'm jumping around but but looking at my notes there's one little looking at my notes there's one little looking at my notes there's one little jump i'd like to make and it's it's a jump i'd like to make and it's it's a jump i'd like to make and it's it's a perspective question right and maybe perspective question right and maybe perspective question right and maybe this is another one of those things that this is another one of those things that this is another one of those things that let's hope not but that has some echoes let's hope not but that has some echoes let's hope not but that has some echoes in our own times i was curious about the in our own times i was curious about the in our own times i was curious about the way and this is really how you know your way and this is really how you know your way and this is really how you know your book starts with the roman empire and book starts with the roman empire and book starts with the roman empire and then moves on from there i i'm then moves on from there i i'm then moves on from there i i'm fascinated by the the way that the fascinated by the the way that the fascinated by the the way that the transition from a roman republic which transition from a roman republic which transition from a roman republic which you know if if we're looking at it from you know if if we're looking at it from you know if if we're looking at it from our perspective now whether it's the uk our perspective now whether it's the uk our perspective now whether it's the uk or the united states you would say oh a or the united states you would say oh a or the united states you would say oh a represent you know these terms don't represent you know these terms don't represent you know these terms don't really apply to rome but we'll use them really apply to rome but we'll use them really apply to rome but we'll use them anyway a representative government is anyway a representative government is anyway a representative government is the superior form of government to the superior form of government to the superior form of government to something like an autocracy or a something like an autocracy or a something like an autocracy or a totalitarian state or an empire or an totalitarian state or an empire or an totalitarian state or an empire or an imperial system that has an emperor who imperial system that has an emperor who imperial system that has an emperor who has control of people but that's not how has control of people but that's not how has control of people but that's not how someone like augustus caesar's someone like augustus caesar's someone like augustus caesar's changing you know and of course he had changing you know and of course he had changing you know and of course he had several successors afterwards who helped several successors afterwards who helped several successors afterwards who helped codify these changes but i mean they codify these changes but i mean they codify these changes but i mean they didn't look at that as as a totalitarian didn't look at that as as a totalitarian didn't look at that as as a totalitarian ruler uh uh coming to power on the on ruler uh uh coming to power on the on ruler uh uh coming to power on the on the ashes of a superior system right a a the ashes of a superior system right a a the ashes of a superior system right a a system of of representation and and wide

system of of representation and and wide system of of representation and and wide distribution of power um how come we distribution of power um how come we distribution of power um how come we don't look at someone like augustus don't look at someone like augustus don't look at someone like augustus caesar as as taking i mean if it caesar as as taking i mean if it caesar as as taking i mean if it happened in germany in 1932 we would say happened in germany in 1932 we would say happened in germany in 1932 we would say that a republic that a republic that a republic was destroyed and on its back was a was destroyed and on its back was a was destroyed and on its back was a dictatorship but but it would be seen dictatorship but but it would be seen dictatorship but but it would be seen completely different how come we view completely different how come we view completely different how come we view the roman transition from a republican the roman transition from a republican the roman transition from a republican form of government to something else in form of government to something else in form of government to something else in a more positive light is it because a more positive light is it because a more positive light is it because compared to what the republic was at the compared to what the republic was at the compared to what the republic was at the very end it was a more positive light or very end it was a more positive light or very end it was a more positive light or is this more of us viewing it from um is this more of us viewing it from um is this more of us viewing it from um you know i mean i suppose the british you know i mean i suppose the british you know i mean i suppose the british empire in the late 19th century might empire in the late 19th century might empire in the late 19th century might have viewed it differently but but it have viewed it differently but but it have viewed it differently but but it seems to me that you're celebrating seems to me that you're celebrating seems to me that you're celebrating something that if it happened today we something that if it happened today we something that if it happened today we would consider to be a terrible thing would consider to be a terrible thing would consider to be a terrible thing yeah but i i think it's a it's a special yeah but i i think it's a it's a special yeah but i i think it's a it's a special case isn't it um and it's case isn't it um and it's case isn't it um and it's it's a good way to say it's a good way to say it's a good way to say so so the turn against empire as a so so the turn against empire as a so so the turn against empire as a historical trend right now is profound historical trend right now is profound historical trend right now is profound right and i mean you've got in in london right and i mean you've got in in london right and i mean you've got in in london here people here people here people actually you know people actually you know people actually you know people defacing churchill statue you know i defacing churchill statue you know i defacing churchill statue you know i talked to my one of my kids about talked to my one of my kids about talked to my one of my kids about churchill i was i was doing something to churchill i was i was doing something to churchill i was i was doing something to do with churchill do with churchill do with churchill uh the other day tv wise uh the other day tv wise uh the other day tv wise and i said i mentioned winston churchill and i said i mentioned winston churchill and i said i mentioned winston churchill to one of them they're to one of them they're to one of them they're uh uh uh ages 12 and nine the oldest ones and the ages 12 and nine the oldest ones and the ages 12 and nine the oldest ones and the 12 year old said churchill churchill 12 year old said churchill churchill 12 year old said churchill churchill yeah i heard of that guy he's the racist yeah i heard of that guy he's the racist yeah i heard of that guy he's the racist guy right guy right guy right i'm like wait hold on a second i'm like wait hold on a second i'm like wait hold on a second hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on uh there are other things i might need uh there are other things i might need uh there are other things i might need to tell you about winston churchill

to tell you about winston churchill to tell you about winston churchill as well as that very salient fact as well as that very salient fact as well as that very salient fact um you know the turn against the british um you know the turn against the british um you know the turn against the british empire empire empire is is is is is is well it's turned um well it's turned um well it's turned um the turn against imperialism per se it's the turn against imperialism per se it's the turn against imperialism per se it's a and yet we still remain sort of a and yet we still remain sort of a and yet we still remain sort of strangely strangely strangely um sort of in love with rome just as as um sort of in love with rome just as as um sort of in love with rome just as as medieval forebears were despite the fact medieval forebears were despite the fact medieval forebears were despite the fact this is one of the very few pure true this is one of the very few pure true this is one of the very few pure true slave states in the history of the world slave states in the history of the world slave states in the history of the world yes yes yes and we're like yeah but i mean the and we're like yeah but i mean the and we're like yeah but i mean the statues and the the the underfloor statues and the the the underfloor statues and the the the underfloor heating man the underfloor heating like heating man the underfloor heating like heating man the underfloor heating like yeah i challenge anybody to go to the yeah i challenge anybody to go to the yeah i challenge anybody to go to the ruins of a roman villa probably built by ruins of a roman villa probably built by ruins of a roman villa probably built by slaves on wealth pillaged from people slaves on wealth pillaged from people slaves on wealth pillaged from people the romans considered inferior to the romans considered inferior to the romans considered inferior to themselves on what we'd now call eugenic themselves on what we'd now call eugenic themselves on what we'd now call eugenic basis and basis and basis and everyone wander around goes [ __ ] man the everyone wander around goes [ __ ] man the everyone wander around goes [ __ ] man the floor must have been super nice and warm floor must have been super nice and warm floor must have been super nice and warm these people they had it they had it you these people they had it they had it you these people they had it they had it you know know know they had it right you know they had it right you know they had it right you know for some reason we're just for some reason we're just for some reason we're just we we hive roam off into a special case we we hive roam off into a special case we we hive roam off into a special case the turn from republic into empire the turn from republic into empire the turn from republic into empire wasn't a good thing i mean i actually wasn't a good thing i mean i actually wasn't a good thing i mean i actually the best the best representation of this the best the best representation of this the best the best representation of this i've ever seen isn't um i've ever seen isn't um i've ever seen isn't um oh it's one of robert harris's novels in oh it's one of robert harris's novels in oh it's one of robert harris's novels in which he he which he he which he he you know through cicero's eyes spells you know through cicero's eyes spells you know through cicero's eyes spells out pretty clearly what a what a corrupt out pretty clearly what a what a corrupt out pretty clearly what a what a corrupt stitch up this stitch up this stitch up this destruction of the republic and creation destruction of the republic and creation destruction of the republic and creation of the empire really was but we still of the empire really was but we still of the empire really was but we still we're still not quite inclined to see it we're still not quite inclined to see it we're still not quite inclined to see it that way because

that way because that way because just as our medieval forebears were just as our medieval forebears were just as our medieval forebears were we're still we're still uh blindly in we're still we're still uh blindly in we're still we're still uh blindly in love with rome love with rome love with rome you know you bring up i i you know it's you know you bring up i i you know it's you know you bring up i i you know it's unfortunate perhaps that this late in unfortunate perhaps that this late in unfortunate perhaps that this late in the conversation you bring up something the conversation you bring up something the conversation you bring up something like this question of um of context in like this question of um of context in like this question of um of context in the way we view the past now because the way we view the past now because the way we view the past now because it's such a big thing here in the states it's such a big thing here in the states it's such a big thing here in the states for example and i know you know you so for example and i know you know you so for example and i know you know you so so this is it but it's worth delving so this is it but it's worth delving so this is it but it's worth delving into it just a tad i think because i into it just a tad i think because i into it just a tad i think because i have you here and i'm going to exploit have you here and i'm going to exploit have you here and i'm going to exploit the moment but um but but it seems to me the moment but um but but it seems to me the moment but um but but it seems to me that there that that that there that that that there that that if you're going to be fair if you're going to be fair if you're going to be fair it is it is wrong to hold people from it is it is wrong to hold people from it is it is wrong to hold people from say the the middle ages because that's say the the middle ages because that's say the the middle ages because that's what your book is about to our modern what your book is about to our modern what your book is about to our modern standards of behavior ethics morals and standards of behavior ethics morals and standards of behavior ethics morals and and those sorts of things and i think and those sorts of things and i think and those sorts of things and i think most people would agree with that and most people would agree with that and most people would agree with that and then it's perfectly fine to do that to then it's perfectly fine to do that to then it's perfectly fine to do that to people from 10 years ago so there's people from 10 years ago so there's people from 10 years ago so there's going to be some time period between going to be some time period between going to be some time period between those two those two those two when all of a sudden the the forgiveness when all of a sudden the the forgiveness when all of a sudden the the forgiveness that comes with living a very long time that comes with living a very long time that comes with living a very long time ago goes away and you're penalized for ago goes away and you're penalized for ago goes away and you're penalized for not jumping on board the um the more not jumping on board the um the more not jumping on board the um the more shall we say modern ethical bandwagon shall we say modern ethical bandwagon shall we say modern ethical bandwagon when you did so it seems to me that a when you did so it seems to me that a when you did so it seems to me that a guy you know we do it with the the guy you know we do it with the the guy you know we do it with the the people the so-called founding fathers people the so-called founding fathers people the so-called founding fathers here who were all born british citizens here who were all born british citizens here who were all born british citizens let's remember uh people who look back let's remember uh people who look back let's remember uh people who look back on the glorious revolution is one of on the glorious revolution is one of on the glorious revolution is one of their main uh influences that you look their main uh influences that you look their main uh influences that you look at those so thomas jefferson's my at those so thomas jefferson's my at those so thomas jefferson's my favorite because to me favorite because to me favorite because to me wrapped up in that figure is all of the wrapped up in that figure is all of the wrapped up in that figure is all of the contradictions and hypocrisies

contradictions and hypocrisies contradictions and hypocrisies um that are built into the american um that are built into the american um that are built into the american founding right here's the guy who all by founding right here's the guy who all by founding right here's the guy who all by himself is respond almost all by himself himself is respond almost all by himself himself is respond almost all by himself uh along with the earlier enlightenment uh along with the earlier enlightenment uh along with the earlier enlightenment thinkers who who influenced him are thinkers who who influenced him are thinkers who who influenced him are responsible for the greatest marketing responsible for the greatest marketing responsible for the greatest marketing messages to ever come out of this messages to ever come out of this messages to ever come out of this country right uh freedom liberty the country right uh freedom liberty the country right uh freedom liberty the rights of man you know all men are rights of man you know all men are rights of man you know all men are created all the all the stuff that we created all the all the stuff that we created all the all the stuff that we emphasize in our own marketing campaigns emphasize in our own marketing campaigns emphasize in our own marketing campaigns as a country and yet obviously the man as a country and yet obviously the man as a country and yet obviously the man owned slaves he was having i'm going to owned slaves he was having i'm going to owned slaves he was having i'm going to say a relationship which is a really say a relationship which is a really say a relationship which is a really wrong word for this with his own slave i wrong word for this with his own slave i wrong word for this with his own slave i mean mean mean you look at him and and it's clear from you look at him and and it's clear from you look at him and and it's clear from his own view he's trying to eliminate his own view he's trying to eliminate his own view he's trying to eliminate slavery long term on one hand but he's slavery long term on one hand but he's slavery long term on one hand but he's doing nothing to eliminate it in his own doing nothing to eliminate it in his own doing nothing to eliminate it in his own life so you look at someone like that life so you look at someone like that life so you look at someone like that you say okay here's a guy who's going to you say okay here's a guy who's going to you say okay here's a guy who's going to be trapped because he doesn't come from be trapped because he doesn't come from be trapped because he doesn't come from 300 years earlier which probably would 300 years earlier which probably would 300 years earlier which probably would have exempted him from modern moral have exempted him from modern moral have exempted him from modern moral moral questions and he doesn't come from moral questions and he doesn't come from moral questions and he doesn't come from 200 years later which would have made it 200 years later which would have made it 200 years later which would have made it absolutely you know there's no excuse absolutely you know there's no excuse absolutely you know there's no excuse for it he's in that transition period for it he's in that transition period for it he's in that transition period where some people realize that this where some people realize that this where some people realize that this practice is wrong so you need to jump on practice is wrong so you need to jump on practice is wrong so you need to jump on the bandwagon one can say the same thing the bandwagon one can say the same thing the bandwagon one can say the same thing about churchill here's a guy born into a about churchill here's a guy born into a about churchill here's a guy born into a world where so many of his peers and the world where so many of his peers and the world where so many of his peers and the way he was raised and everything thought way he was raised and everything thought way he was raised and everything thought the way he did and then he lived to be the way he did and then he lived to be the way he did and then he lived to be 90 something right and all of a sudden 90 something right and all of a sudden 90 something right and all of a sudden you know things changed and he was left you know things changed and he was left you know things changed and he was left you know and i i was i remember reading you know and i i was i remember reading you know and i i was i remember reading in the 1920s and 1930s they were already in the 1920s and 1930s they were already in the 1920s and 1930s they were already thinking of him as an almost thinking of him as an almost thinking of him as an almost embarrassing political dinosaur in some embarrassing political dinosaur in some embarrassing political dinosaur in some british circles how should we and this british circles how should we and this british circles how should we and this may be something that's not fair to even may be something that's not fair to even may be something that's not fair to even ask you but how should we roll with the

ask you but how should we roll with the ask you but how should we roll with the punches here and trying to figure i mean punches here and trying to figure i mean punches here and trying to figure i mean with jefferson i always try to say well with jefferson i always try to say well with jefferson i always try to say well laud him for the good stuff and punish laud him for the good stuff and punish laud him for the good stuff and punish him for the bad stuff how should someone him for the bad stuff how should someone him for the bad stuff how should someone look at someone like churchill who's look at someone like churchill who's look at someone like churchill who's from from from whose lifetime extends over a period whose lifetime extends over a period whose lifetime extends over a period where the morality even in his own world where the morality even in his own world where the morality even in his own world in the circles he ran with evolved past in the circles he ran with evolved past in the circles he ran with evolved past his opinion his opinion his opinion well look well look well look churchill was old-fashioned even in his churchill was old-fashioned even in his churchill was old-fashioned even in his own time own time own time uh and uh and uh and was a was a was a you know in many made many many many you know in many made many many many you know in many made many many many many many mistakes many many mistakes many many mistakes um um um was constantly behind the curve was constantly behind the curve was constantly behind the curve uh was in some ways living a sort of uh uh was in some ways living a sort of uh uh was in some ways living a sort of uh a strange a strange a strange slightly masochistic tribute act to his slightly masochistic tribute act to his slightly masochistic tribute act to his father yes father yes father yes who nevertheless in the 1930s or the you who nevertheless in the 1930s or the you who nevertheless in the 1930s or the you know at the end of the 1930s know at the end of the 1930s know at the end of the 1930s into the into 1940 at the point at which into the into 1940 at the point at which into the into 1940 at the point at which this this this this this this person would in almost every other person would in almost every other person would in almost every other circumstances have just been written out circumstances have just been written out circumstances have just been written out of public life was there at the right of public life was there at the right of public life was there at the right moment and was exactly the the right moment and was exactly the the right moment and was exactly the the right person for that role of leadership person for that role of leadership person for that role of leadership now now now that's the story of churchill and we the that's the story of churchill and we the that's the story of churchill and we the the correct historical thing to do is the correct historical thing to do is the correct historical thing to do is say look what were the moral standards say look what were the moral standards say look what were the moral standards ethics and mores of the day put aside ethics and mores of the day put aside ethics and mores of the day put aside whether you agree with them or not what whether you agree with them or not what whether you agree with them or not what were they in that day what was right in were they in that day what was right in were they in that day what was right in that day and what was considered wrong that day and what was considered wrong that day and what was considered wrong in that day and how did that person fit in that day and how did that person fit in that day and how did that person fit into that moral world now you do that

into that moral world now you do that into that moral world now you do that with churchill you still don't come out with churchill you still don't come out with churchill you still don't come out with super great guy you come out with with super great guy you come out with with super great guy you come out with person who people thought was it was person who people thought was it was person who people thought was it was you know there were many people had a you know there were many people had a you know there were many people had a problem with even in his own day who problem with even in his own day who problem with even in his own day who cometh the hour cometh the man everyone cometh the hour cometh the man everyone cometh the hour cometh the man everyone said you know what actually this maybe said you know what actually this maybe said you know what actually this maybe this is the right person this is the right person this is the right person now that's the grown-up way of doing now that's the grown-up way of doing now that's the grown-up way of doing history but history but history but oh dear i'm going to sound like such a oh dear i'm going to sound like such a oh dear i'm going to sound like such a such an old man now but we're in such an old man now but we're in such an old man now but we're in such a such a such a sort of childish cultural space at the sort of childish cultural space at the sort of childish cultural space at the moment and such an individualistic moment and such an individualistic moment and such an individualistic um um um space at the moment that that many space at the moment that that many space at the moment that that many historians and many non-historians sort historians and many non-historians sort historians and many non-historians sort of dipping their toes in the water of dipping their toes in the water of dipping their toes in the water think that history's all about them think that history's all about them think that history's all about them and that the the practice of history is and that the the practice of history is and that the the practice of history is about going around about going around about going around telling people off for not having lived telling people off for not having lived telling people off for not having lived up to an ideal moral standard and that up to an ideal moral standard and that up to an ideal moral standard and that that is really the most important thing that is really the most important thing that is really the most important thing that uh that a historian or someone that uh that a historian or someone that uh that a historian or someone engaging in history can do that and and engaging in history can do that and and engaging in history can do that and and it's it's pathetic it's it's pathetic it's it's pathetic but i think the uh the point in general but i think the uh the point in general but i think the uh the point in general is is is is that we are in this moment and and is that we are in this moment and and is that we are in this moment and and what i also didn't mean stress with this what i also didn't mean stress with this what i also didn't mean stress with this was a unique moment in human history was a unique moment in human history was a unique moment in human history it's it's a cycle you know yes um there it's it's a cycle you know yes um there it's it's a cycle you know yes um there what was the book that would um there's a book about that transition there's a book about that transition from the georgian to the victorian um from the georgian to the victorian um from the georgian to the victorian um called the age of cat and i think that called the age of cat and i think that called the age of cat and i think that there's a similar sort of moralism

there's a similar sort of moralism there's a similar sort of moralism in in its uh k-a-n-t correct k-a-n-t no in in its uh k-a-n-t correct k-a-n-t no in in its uh k-a-n-t correct k-a-n-t no no no no not the philosopher c-a-c-a-n-t no no no not the philosopher c-a-c-a-n-t no no no not the philosopher c-a-c-a-n-t okay thank you yeah uh from kentucky so okay thank you yeah uh from kentucky so okay thank you yeah uh from kentucky so the the um the the um the the um it's by vic gattrell and it's about uh it's by vic gattrell and it's about uh it's by vic gattrell and it's about uh this sort of this sort of this sort of well well well the the verb is this canting pious the the verb is this canting pious the the verb is this canting pious rhetoric which uh which pervades public rhetoric which uh which pervades public rhetoric which uh which pervades public discourse in which everyone is trying is discourse in which everyone is trying is discourse in which everyone is trying is trying to say the the trying to say the the trying to say the the the most moral thing and that to slip up the most moral thing and that to slip up the most moral thing and that to slip up will be to uh to invite ridicule scorn will be to uh to invite ridicule scorn will be to uh to invite ridicule scorn and possibly um and possibly um and possibly um you know the you know the you know the uh uh uh disadvancement in one's career disadvancement in one's career disadvancement in one's career uh there's a similar sort of uh pious uh there's a similar sort of uh pious uh there's a similar sort of uh pious sensoriousness sensoriousness sensoriousness about um public discourse now now i about um public discourse now now i about um public discourse now now i think it may be and i write about this think it may be and i write about this think it may be and i write about this in powers and thrones at the end of the in powers and thrones at the end of the in powers and thrones at the end of the book i think it may be in fact it is book i think it may be in fact it is book i think it may be in fact it is connected to new communications connected to new communications connected to new communications technology so let's take a good medieval technology so let's take a good medieval technology so let's take a good medieval example example example of an age of kant c-a-n-t of an age of kant c-a-n-t of an age of kant c-a-n-t uh uh uh from printing the printing press in the from printing the printing press in the from printing the printing press in the 1450s right comes along and makes it 1450s right comes along and makes it 1450s right comes along and makes it vastly easier to communicate vastly easier to communicate vastly easier to communicate uh to communicate on mass to communicate uh to communicate on mass to communicate uh to communicate on mass to communicate at speed at speed at speed and what do you see happening in public and what do you see happening in public and what do you see happening in public discourse in the decades afterwards it discourse in the decades afterwards it discourse in the decades afterwards it becomes incredibly becomes incredibly becomes incredibly um moralistic incredibly sensorious um moralistic incredibly sensorious um moralistic incredibly sensorious people attacking one another all over people attacking one another all over people attacking one another all over the place and you have a culture war the place and you have a culture war the place and you have a culture war that emerges which is what we call the that emerges which is what we call the that emerges which is what we call the reformation now there's there's an reformation now there's there's an reformation now there's there's an analogy to be drawn there with the age analogy to be drawn there with the age analogy to be drawn there with the age of the iphone and social media the

of the iphone and social media the of the iphone and social media the immediacy that the availability of immediacy that the availability of immediacy that the availability of publishing and of publishing at scale publishing and of publishing at scale publishing and of publishing at scale and what do you see happening and what do you see happening and what do you see happening immediately to human discourse it immediately to human discourse it immediately to human discourse it becomes it becomes very very fractious becomes it becomes very very fractious becomes it becomes very very fractious and very very sort of pompous and very very sort of pompous and very very sort of pompous and that's the moment we're living in at and that's the moment we're living in at and that's the moment we're living in at the moment that's the movement we're the moment that's the movement we're the moment that's the movement we're living in right now so it's um but living in right now so it's um but living in right now so it's um but definitely definitely not definitely definitely not definitely definitely not anything new in terms of the long view anything new in terms of the long view anything new in terms of the long view of human history it's just um of human history it's just um of human history it's just um for me as you can tell quite irritating for me as you can tell quite irritating for me as you can tell quite irritating to actually live through well let me let to actually live through well let me let to actually live through well let me let me let me validate what you said about me let me validate what you said about me let me validate what you said about cycles too and i'm going to blame the cycles too and i'm going to blame the cycles too and i'm going to blame the british i'm going to blame the british british i'm going to blame the british british i'm going to blame the british for this since i haven't since i have for this since i haven't since i have for this since i haven't since i have one of them but i mean in in the early one of them but i mean in in the early one of them but i mean in in the early history of the americas with when you history of the americas with when you history of the americas with when you have puritans and all this sort of thing have puritans and all this sort of thing have puritans and all this sort of thing we were shunning we were shaming we were we were shunning we were shaming we were we were shunning we were shaming we were banishing from the public sphere i mean banishing from the public sphere i mean banishing from the public sphere i mean this is how things were done i feel like this is how things were done i feel like this is how things were done i feel like we've just taken that quintessentially we've just taken that quintessentially we've just taken that quintessentially proto-american quality added social proto-american quality added social proto-american quality added social media to it made sure that there is no media to it made sure that there is no media to it made sure that there is no see at least the the public shaming and see at least the the public shaming and see at least the the public shaming and all those things that were going on in all those things that were going on in all those things that were going on in those puritan communities there was one those puritan communities there was one those puritan communities there was one moral standard now we have multiple moral standard now we have multiple moral standard now we have multiple moral standards and you can be shamed moral standards and you can be shamed moral standards and you can be shamed for any of them by the groups that for any of them by the groups that for any of them by the groups that associate with those morals i mean it's associate with those morals i mean it's associate with those morals i mean it's public shaming on steroids with social public shaming on steroids with social public shaming on steroids with social media so i mean i feel like this is the media so i mean i feel like this is the media so i mean i feel like this is the same cycle with some amplification same cycle with some amplification same cycle with some amplification amplification involved so um so we'll amplification involved so um so we'll amplification involved so um so we'll blame that on the british and call it blame that on the british and call it blame that on the british and call it good right you brought up georgian stuff i'm just you brought up georgian stuff i'm just going a little earlier listen is there going a little earlier listen is there going a little earlier listen is there anything i did is there anything i anything i did is there anything i anything i did is there anything i didn't bring up that you want to i mean didn't bring up that you want to i mean didn't bring up that you want to i mean first of all the book is wonderful um uh

first of all the book is wonderful um uh first of all the book is wonderful um uh it is one of those books and i can hear it is one of those books and i can hear it is one of those books and i can hear my mother's voice in my head who if you my mother's voice in my head who if you my mother's voice in my head who if you read this book from cover to cover and read this book from cover to cover and read this book from cover to cover and remembered it you would have a giant remembered it you would have a giant remembered it you would have a giant chunk of your western historical chunk of your western historical chunk of your western historical knowledge completely filled in is there knowledge completely filled in is there knowledge completely filled in is there anything because it's a thousand pages anything because it's a thousand pages anything because it's a thousand pages almost i'm sure i left out all the best almost i'm sure i left out all the best almost i'm sure i left out all the best parts what did i leave out that we parts what did i leave out that we parts what did i leave out that we should we should get into should we should get into should we should get into oh man i mean this there's oh man i mean this there's oh man i mean this there's there's just so much i had such a blast there's just so much i had such a blast there's just so much i had such a blast writing i i look i i enjoyed i'd written writing i i look i i enjoyed i'd written writing i i look i i enjoyed i'd written a lot of a lot of a lot of dynastic history plantagenets mores the dynastic history plantagenets mores the dynastic history plantagenets mores the roses before this i've written to roses before this i've written to roses before this i've written to religious military history with templars religious military history with templars religious military history with templars and crusaders i've done some you know and crusaders i've done some you know and crusaders i've done some you know constitutional history with magna carta constitutional history with magna carta constitutional history with magna carta i actually really enjoyed getting into i actually really enjoyed getting into i actually really enjoyed getting into the architectural the uh the literary the architectural the uh the literary the architectural the uh the literary the the the stuff on the carolingian script was stuff on the carolingian script was stuff on the carolingian script was fascinating fascinating fascinating but but but even the sort of later stuff you know i even the sort of later stuff you know i even the sort of later stuff you know i read there's a chapter in the book on um read there's a chapter in the book on um read there's a chapter in the book on um called builders which is about it's sort called builders which is about it's sort called builders which is about it's sort of said in the 13th century and it's of said in the 13th century and it's of said in the 13th century and it's about about about castle building castle building castle building which i you know i've done made some tv which i you know i've done made some tv which i you know i've done made some tv shows from netflix about castles and shows from netflix about castles and shows from netflix about castles and it's about gothic architecture and i it's about gothic architecture and i it's about gothic architecture and i just got to pull into that all my just got to pull into that all my just got to pull into that all my experience i was running in lockdown so experience i was running in lockdown so experience i was running in lockdown so i couldn't travel a lot but i got to i couldn't travel a lot but i got to i couldn't travel a lot but i got to pull in all my all my memories and pull in all my all my memories and pull in all my all my memories and experiences and notes about about experiences and notes about about experiences and notes about about traveling to great gothic cathedrals in traveling to great gothic cathedrals in traveling to great gothic cathedrals in in england and elsewhere and i i loved in england and elsewhere and i i loved in england and elsewhere and i i loved bringing that aspect of it i loved doing bringing that aspect of it i loved doing bringing that aspect of it i loved doing the chapter called renewers which is the chapter called renewers which is the chapter called renewers which is goes from petrarch and dante and

goes from petrarch and dante and goes from petrarch and dante and tetsurima and this sort of new poetry of tetsurima and this sort of new poetry of tetsurima and this sort of new poetry of the of the 13th the of the 13th the of the 13th century century century into um into um into um into a great painting van ike you know into a great painting van ike you know into a great painting van ike you know moving oil painting somewhere never been moving oil painting somewhere never been moving oil painting somewhere never been before to da vinci you know the before to da vinci you know the before to da vinci you know the universal genius and as we've said universal genius and as we've said universal genius and as we've said already this figure who connects the um already this figure who connects the um already this figure who connects the um the medieval and the modern so the medieval and the modern so the medieval and the modern so brilliantly um and so what brilliantly um and so what brilliantly um and so what i suppose i suppose i suppose what am i trying to say i'm trying to what am i trying to say i'm trying to what am i trying to say i'm trying to say that actually my takeaway from the say that actually my takeaway from the say that actually my takeaway from the middle ages or what i hope people will middle ages or what i hope people will middle ages or what i hope people will take away from my book about the middle take away from my book about the middle take away from my book about the middle ages is that ages is that ages is that there's yes there's a lot of there's yes there's a lot of there's yes there's a lot of dudes slaying each other dudes slaying each other dudes slaying each other and that's uh that's a constant history and that's uh that's a constant history and that's uh that's a constant history but there's also but there's also but there's also i hope more than any book i've done this i hope more than any book i've done this i hope more than any book i've done this sort of sort of sort of a much a much a much richer texture to them to life in the richer texture to them to life in the richer texture to them to life in the middle ages and the greater sense of the middle ages and the greater sense of the middle ages and the greater sense of the the legacy the visual artistic cultural the legacy the visual artistic cultural the legacy the visual artistic cultural legacy that this extraordinary age uh legacy that this extraordinary age uh legacy that this extraordinary age uh brought to us but i mean brought to us but i mean brought to us but i mean we could we could be talking another two we could we could be talking another two we could we could be talking another two hours hours hours and we'd still get nowhere and dan let's and we'd still get nowhere and dan let's and we'd still get nowhere and dan let's not be surprised that you come on this not be surprised that you come on this not be surprised that you come on this show and somehow artwork gets the short show and somehow artwork gets the short show and somehow artwork gets the short shrift it was just gonna happen okay shrift it was just gonna happen okay shrift it was just gonna happen okay you knew there was gonna be charging you knew there was gonna be charging you knew there was gonna be charging through the walls of babylon and not through the walls of babylon and not through the walls of babylon and not enough da vinci that's just my that's enough da vinci that's just my that's enough da vinci that's just my that's how it goes how it goes how it goes that's how it goes that's how it goes that's how it goes that's how it goes that's how it goes that's how it goes but look but look but look um i could talk to you all day because um i could talk to you all day because um i could talk to you all day because uh you know i'm a huge fan of yours i uh you know i'm a huge fan of yours i uh you know i'm a huge fan of yours i think what you've done for the history

think what you've done for the history think what you've done for the history and the public and the public and the public um um um you know the way you fed the public you know the way you fed the public you know the way you fed the public appetite for history and this in this appetite for history and this in this appetite for history and this in this medium and with your books is medium and with your books is medium and with your books is it's extraordinary and you're doing a it's extraordinary and you're doing a it's extraordinary and you're doing a great thing and uh and i know that you great thing and uh and i know that you great thing and uh and i know that you know well you know this and i'm just know well you know this and i'm just know well you know this and i'm just flattering you but i'm not uh that's flattering you but i'm not uh that's flattering you but i'm not uh that's when it's time for the show to end yeah when it's time for the show to end yeah when it's time for the show to end yeah that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's no that's where we know it's time for no that's where we know it's time for no that's where we know it's time for the show to end the show to end the show to end once we start complimenting the host once we start complimenting the host once we start complimenting the host it's done okay it's done okay it's done okay my friend thank you so much the book is my friend thank you so much the book is my friend thank you so much the book is fantastic powers and thrones everybody fantastic powers and thrones everybody fantastic powers and thrones everybody should get a copy uh i read the pdf i'm should get a copy uh i read the pdf i'm should get a copy uh i read the pdf i'm hoping to get a copy of myself someday hoping to get a copy of myself someday hoping to get a copy of myself someday uh i will buy it don't worry we don't uh i will buy it don't worry we don't uh i will buy it don't worry we don't need any freebies around here it was need any freebies around here it was need any freebies around here it was worth it it's fantastic and ladies and worth it it's fantastic and ladies and worth it it's fantastic and ladies and gentlemen dan jones has been doing good gentlemen dan jones has been doing good gentlemen dan jones has been doing good for work for a while this is i have to for work for a while this is i have to for work for a while this is i have to be honest and maybe it's just because be honest and maybe it's just because be honest and maybe it's just because the subject matter is so comprehensive the subject matter is so comprehensive the subject matter is so comprehensive it was so far it's my favorite book it was so far it's my favorite book it was so far it's my favorite book you've ever written so you've ever written so you've ever written so thanks brother that's super kind my thanks to dan jones for coming on the my thanks to dan jones for coming on the program that was a lot of fun program that was a lot of fun program that was a lot of fun his new book powers and thrones a new his new book powers and thrones a new his new book powers and thrones a new history of the middle ages is scheduled history of the middle ages is scheduled history of the middle ages is scheduled to come out november 9th 2021 to come out november 9th 2021 to come out november 9th 2021 so may or may not yet be out by the time so may or may not yet be out by the time so may or may not yet be out by the time you get this show you get this show you get this show there's other books of course currently there's other books of course currently there's other books of course currently available and worth getting if you've available and worth getting if you've available and worth getting if you've not been exposed to that the not been exposed to that the not been exposed to that the plantagenets plantagenets plantagenets crusaders the templars magna carta you crusaders the templars magna carta you crusaders the templars magna carta you know if if the middle ages and this know if if the middle ages and this know if if the middle ages and this region of the world is something you region of the world is something you region of the world is something you really like or think you might

really like or think you might really like or think you might dan jones is one of the really good dan jones is one of the really good dan jones is one of the really good people to tell you all about it people to tell you all about it people to tell you all about it i'm being strenuously reminded um i'm being strenuously reminded um i'm being strenuously reminded um because i am and there ought to be a because i am and there ought to be a because i am and there ought to be a registered trademark symbol after this registered trademark symbol after this registered trademark symbol after this phrase the worst marketer in the world phrase the worst marketer in the world phrase the worst marketer in the world that i should probably tell everyone or that i should probably tell everyone or that i should probably tell everyone or remind everyone that as the holiday remind everyone that as the holiday remind everyone that as the holiday gift-giving season approaches gift-giving season approaches gift-giving season approaches um you know if you can't think of um you know if you can't think of um you know if you can't think of anything else out there or you run out anything else out there or you run out anything else out there or you run out of time or whatever it might be really of time or whatever it might be really of time or whatever it might be really hard weird person to buy for maybe uh hard weird person to buy for maybe uh hard weird person to buy for maybe uh that we do sell the archived hardcore that we do sell the archived hardcore that we do sell the archived hardcore history shows either singly or in history shows either singly or in history shows either singly or in bunches from the website bunches from the website bunches from the website i think we worked it out so that it's i think we worked it out so that it's i think we worked it out so that it's priced at like if you buy the whole priced at like if you buy the whole priced at like if you buy the whole catalog it's like a dollar an hour works catalog it's like a dollar an hour works catalog it's like a dollar an hour works out too content-wise i hope that's fair out too content-wise i hope that's fair out too content-wise i hope that's fair we also have some new merchandise on the we also have some new merchandise on the we also have some new merchandise on the way different design stuff but i don't way different design stuff but i don't way different design stuff but i don't know when it's coming in frankly know when it's coming in frankly know when it's coming in frankly hope it makes it for the holidays not hope it makes it for the holidays not hope it makes it for the holidays not sure yet sure yet sure yet we do have gift certificates available we do have gift certificates available we do have gift certificates available and we have another method we just and we have another method we just and we have another method we just hooked up recently that we're trying out hooked up recently that we're trying out hooked up recently that we're trying out to give another option to people who buy to give another option to people who buy to give another option to people who buy again you know as the worst marketer in again you know as the worst marketer in again you know as the worst marketer in the world i'm told to to make sure i the world i'm told to to make sure i the world i'm told to to make sure i explain this but it it involves another explain this but it it involves another explain this but it it involves another way to get our our premium feed so that way to get our our premium feed so that way to get our our premium feed so that it works better with for example people it works better with for example people it works better with for example people with certain kinds of pod catchers with certain kinds of pod catchers with certain kinds of pod catchers than our than our old system or our than our than our old system or our than our than our old system or our current system on the website so more current system on the website so more current system on the website so more options we figure is better for everyone options we figure is better for everyone options we figure is better for everyone so check that out if that sounds good to so check that out if that sounds good to so check that out if that sounds good to you you you and for those who ask because i know you and for those who ask because i know you and for those who ask because i know you always do we are currently working on always do we are currently working on always do we are currently working on the next big hardcore history show i the next big hardcore history show i the next big hardcore history show i don't know when it's going to be ready don't know when it's going to be ready don't know when it's going to be ready it's the same old problem that it always

it's the same old problem that it always it's the same old problem that it always is is is and i hope we can get these little and i hope we can get these little and i hope we can get these little you know appetizers out to keep you from you know appetizers out to keep you from you know appetizers out to keep you from starving to death starving to death starving to death you know between main courses but thank you know between main courses but thank you know between main courses but thank you for everything everybody as always you for everything everybody as always you for everything everybody as always i'm very grateful i'm very grateful i'm very grateful stay safe stay safe stay safe support us with patreon by going to support us with patreon by going to support us with patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or go to our donate page at dan dot com go to our donate page at dan dot com go to our donate page at dan dot com forward slash dc dash donate thanks forward slash dc dash donate thanks forward slash dc dash donate thanks again for all your bucka show donations again for all your bucka show donations again for all your bucka show donations they're the reason we're still here at they're the reason we're still here at they're the reason we're still here at the end of the last hha show we the end of the last hha show we the end of the last hha show we mentioned uh the folks over at battle mentioned uh the folks over at battle mentioned uh the folks over at battle guide virtual tours guide virtual tours guide virtual tours and i'm going to continue to do that for and i'm going to continue to do that for and i'm going to continue to do that for a little while because i think you if a little while because i think you if a little while because i think you if you're interested in military history you're interested in military history you're interested in military history and not everyone is so let's just say and not everyone is so let's just say and not everyone is so let's just say that right off the bat but if you are that right off the bat but if you are that right off the bat but if you are you know how difficult it is sometimes you know how difficult it is sometimes you know how difficult it is sometimes to get your mind around what's going on to get your mind around what's going on to get your mind around what's going on at some of these battles at some of these battles at some of these battles if you pull out a map or you're reading if you pull out a map or you're reading if you pull out a map or you're reading a book or you're watching a documentary a book or you're watching a documentary a book or you're watching a documentary or whatever it might be or whatever it might be or whatever it might be um there's so much going on at so many um there's so much going on at so many um there's so much going on at so many different levels that even if you are on different levels that even if you are on different levels that even if you are on the ground like one of these tours that the ground like one of these tours that the ground like one of these tours that you can go on uh there's still it's hard you can go on uh there's still it's hard you can go on uh there's still it's hard to get a sense through the fog of war to get a sense through the fog of war to get a sense through the fog of war and the terrain what's hidden from i and the terrain what's hidden from i and the terrain what's hidden from i mean mean mean battles are complicated things right battles are complicated things right battles are complicated things right so so so the during the pandemic that happened i the during the pandemic that happened i the during the pandemic that happened i was in touch with a group called battle was in touch with a group called battle was in touch with a group called battle guide virtual tours who were people that guide virtual tours who were people that guide virtual tours who were people that did real tours did real tours did real tours and like so many businesses around the and like so many businesses around the and like so many businesses around the world were trying to figure out how to world were trying to figure out how to world were trying to figure out how to pivot and keep some sort of a business pivot and keep some sort of a business pivot and keep some sort of a business going going going when no one knew when there were going

when no one knew when there were going when no one knew when there were going to be any tourists or anyone who wanted to be any tourists or anyone who wanted to be any tourists or anyone who wanted to visit battlefields in person anymore to visit battlefields in person anymore to visit battlefields in person anymore right right right but the way that they figured out how to but the way that they figured out how to but the way that they figured out how to do this do this do this and this is just my opinion i mean and this is just my opinion i mean and this is just my opinion i mean they may have a different opinion but i they may have a different opinion but i they may have a different opinion but i think it's like the hershey's peanut think it's like the hershey's peanut think it's like the hershey's peanut butter cup commercial you got your butter cup commercial you got your butter cup commercial you got your chocolate in my peanut butter and oh it chocolate in my peanut butter and oh it chocolate in my peanut butter and oh it it's better than ever it's better than ever it's better than ever i love what they did i love what they did i love what they did to create something you could download to create something you could download to create something you could download at home at home at home and as i told them i mean and as i told them i mean and as i told them i mean it's wonderful to be able to take one of it's wonderful to be able to take one of it's wonderful to be able to take one of those once in a lifetime trips to a those once in a lifetime trips to a those once in a lifetime trips to a battlefield somewhere that you've always battlefield somewhere that you've always battlefield somewhere that you've always wanted to go to but what if you want to wanted to go to but what if you want to wanted to go to but what if you want to go to another one the week afterwards or go to another one the week afterwards or go to another one the week afterwards or something like that i mean this opens something like that i mean this opens something like that i mean this opens the door to people getting to see lots the door to people getting to see lots the door to people getting to see lots of battlefields with this sort of of battlefields with this sort of of battlefields with this sort of approach and the approach is you'll have approach and the approach is you'll have approach and the approach is you'll have to see it for yourself and that's what to see it for yourself and that's what to see it for yourself and that's what i'm really here to tell you is that uh i'm really here to tell you is that uh i'm really here to tell you is that uh you can do that for free and just see if you can do that for free and just see if you can do that for free and just see if you like it and then if you like it you you like it and then if you like it you you like it and then if you like it you know you can take it from there i'm not know you can take it from there i'm not know you can take it from there i'm not going to convince you one way or the going to convince you one way or the going to convince you one way or the other i just wanted you to get an idea other i just wanted you to get an idea other i just wanted you to get an idea from from a perspective of somebody from from a perspective of somebody from from a perspective of somebody who's always trying to understand these who's always trying to understand these who's always trying to understand these things things things without all these elements it's hard without all these elements it's hard without all these elements it's hard and the way that they put it together is and the way that they put it together is and the way that they put it together is something i think is pretty cool and if something i think is pretty cool and if something i think is pretty cool and if you're into military history and if you you're into military history and if you you're into military history and if you feel like i do that you'd really like to feel like i do that you'd really like to feel like i do that you'd really like to better understand everything going on at better understand everything going on at better understand everything going on at some of these battles go see if you like some of these battles go see if you like some of these battles go see if you like any of these battles that they offer uh any of these battles that they offer uh any of these battles that they offer uh go to go to battleguide dot co dot uk go to go to battleguide dot co dot uk go to go to battleguide dot co dot uk forward slash karlin battle guide dot co forward slash karlin battle guide dot co forward slash karlin battle guide dot co dot uk forward slash karlin and get one dot uk forward slash karlin and get one dot uk forward slash karlin and get one of the free shows that's put aside for of the free shows that's put aside for of the free shows that's put aside for you and just see what you think