HH Addendum EP3 A Four-Star Conversation

today's show is sponsored by audible get today's show is sponsored by audible get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial a free audiobook with a 30-day trial a free audiobook with a 30-day trial membership just go to audible.com membership just go to audible.com membership just go to audible.com forward slash hardcore history or text forward slash hardcore history or text forward slash hardcore history or text the word hardcore history 2 5 0 0 - 5 0 the word hardcore history 2 5 0 0 - 5 0 the word hardcore history 2 5 0 0 - 5 0 0 to get started today it's hardcore 0 to get started today it's hardcore 0 to get started today it's hardcore history attention when I was designing history attention when I was designing history attention when I was designing this hardcore history addendum format I this hardcore history addendum format I this hardcore history addendum format I knew that we were going to want to do knew that we were going to want to do knew that we were going to want to do interviews it's a good way for us to get interviews it's a good way for us to get interviews it's a good way for us to get out content quickly that's interesting out content quickly that's interesting out content quickly that's interesting and that it involves other people other and that it involves other people other and that it involves other people other voices people that you might want to voices people that you might want to voices people that you might want to know more about and I knew that we would know more about and I knew that we would know more about and I knew that we would have authors on because there's always a have authors on because there's always a have authors on because there's always a lot of good people writing intriguing lot of good people writing intriguing lot of good people writing intriguing books cuz I'm reading them I knew we books cuz I'm reading them I knew we books cuz I'm reading them I knew we would want to have experts on from time would want to have experts on from time would want to have experts on from time to time because after all it's a great to time because after all it's a great to time because after all it's a great use of the medium isn't it and I was use of the medium isn't it and I was use of the medium isn't it and I was hoping that we could get some primary hoping that we could get some primary hoping that we could get some primary source people on from time to time source people on from time to time source people on from time to time participants in the events that we were participants in the events that we were participants in the events that we were talking about in other words you know talking about in other words you know talking about in other words you know I'm not a historian because historians I'm not a historian because historians I'm not a historian because historians Chronicle you know things for history Chronicle you know things for history Chronicle you know things for history and for footnotes and stuff in books but and for footnotes and stuff in books but and for footnotes and stuff in books but maybe we could do a little bit of that maybe we could do a little bit of that maybe we could do a little bit of that if we were interviewing people you know if we were interviewing people you know if we were interviewing people you know who were participants in these sorts of who were participants in these sorts of who were participants in these sorts of events well today I have somebody that events well today I have somebody that events well today I have somebody that is sort of the trifecta of interviews is sort of the trifecta of interviews is sort of the trifecta of interviews for this program because he meets all for this program because he meets all for this program because he meets all three of those specifications he's an three of those specifications he's an three of those specifications he's an author he's an expert and he's a primary author he's an expert and he's a primary author he's an expert and he's a primary source and participants his name is source and participants his name is source and participants his name is Meryl McDonald he flew with the Meryl McDonald he flew with the Meryl McDonald he flew with the Thunderbirds the acrobatic team for the

Thunderbirds the acrobatic team for the Thunderbirds the acrobatic team for the Air Force he is a commander a chief of Air Force he is a commander a chief of Air Force he is a commander a chief of staff in the Air Force and did so during staff in the Air Force and did so during staff in the Air Force and did so during the first Gulf War and he flew more than the first Gulf War and he flew more than the first Gulf War and he flew more than 250 combat missions in Vietnam imagine 250 combat missions in Vietnam imagine 250 combat missions in Vietnam imagine that for a second he's also a noted that for a second he's also a noted that for a second he's also a noted author who's got a brand new book out to author who's got a brand new book out to author who's got a brand new book out to add to his catalog of books his new book add to his catalog of books his new book add to his catalog of books his new book is called roles and missions which goes is called roles and missions which goes is called roles and missions which goes over his time as the 14th Air Force over his time as the 14th Air Force over his time as the 14th Air Force chief of staff by the way sort of a chief of staff by the way sort of a chief of staff by the way sort of a bipartisan guy worked for the Bob Dole bipartisan guy worked for the Bob Dole bipartisan guy worked for the Bob Dole republican campaign also supported and republican campaign also supported and republican campaign also supported and was in the Barack Obama administration was in the Barack Obama administration was in the Barack Obama administration in terms of a military capacity in terms of a military capacity in terms of a military capacity he writes about his time in Vietnam and he writes about his time in Vietnam and he writes about his time in Vietnam and his book called hangar flying he's got his book called hangar flying he's got his book called hangar flying he's got another one called below the zone another one called below the zone another one called below the zone another one called the Vietnam chapters another one called the Vietnam chapters another one called the Vietnam chapters if you like military history de if you like military history de if you like military history de specially Air Force history merrill tony specially Air Force history merrill tony specially Air Force history merrill tony McPeak is somebody whose books should be McPeak is somebody whose books should be McPeak is somebody whose books should be on your bookshelf we talked to the on your bookshelf we talked to the on your bookshelf we talked to the four-star general now who was nice four-star general now who was nice four-star general now who was nice enough to come and talk with us by the enough to come and talk with us by the enough to come and talk with us by the way you may have recently seen him in way you may have recently seen him in way you may have recently seen him in Ken Burns his recent multi-part Ken Burns his recent multi-part Ken Burns his recent multi-part documentary on the Vietnam War as well documentary on the Vietnam War as well documentary on the Vietnam War as well welcome to the show welcome to the show welcome to the show general McPeak first of all let's get general McPeak first of all let's get general McPeak first of all let's get started by suggesting you know the started by suggesting you know the started by suggesting you know the person we were we were contacting your person we were we were contacting your person we were we were contacting your publicist or whatever was discussing the publicist or whatever was discussing the publicist or whatever was discussing the 50th year of the Tet Offensive and when 50th year of the Tet Offensive and when 50th year of the Tet Offensive and when I was thinking about how to start this I I was thinking about how to start this I I was thinking about how to start this I thought you know I grew up in that thought you know I grew up in that thought you know I grew up in that generation where we weren't in the war

generation where we weren't in the war generation where we weren't in the war we were in the early eighties middle 80s we were in the early eighties middle 80s we were in the early eighties middle 80s we were the ones learning about the war we were the ones learning about the war we were the ones learning about the war in college and the veterans would come in college and the veterans would come in college and the veterans would come and speak in our classes and I remember and speak in our classes and I remember and speak in our classes and I remember 60 minutes did a whole big thing on how 60 minutes did a whole big thing on how 60 minutes did a whole big thing on how here we were studying the lessons of here we were studying the lessons of here we were studying the lessons of Vietnam and what did we learn and I Vietnam and what did we learn and I Vietnam and what did we learn and I thought now here we are decades later thought now here we are decades later thought now here we are decades later and I thought I would ask you 50 years and I thought I would ask you 50 years and I thought I would ask you 50 years after the Tet Offensive what do you after the Tet Offensive what do you after the Tet Offensive what do you think we learned and do you think the think we learned and do you think the think we learned and do you think the things we learned for example by the things we learned for example by the things we learned for example by the 1970s or 1980s do you think those 1970s or 1980s do you think those 1970s or 1980s do you think those lessons stuck well speaking as a lessons stuck well speaking as a lessons stuck well speaking as a professional military guy we learned a professional military guy we learned a professional military guy we learned a lot and did not we learned for instance lot and did not we learned for instance lot and did not we learned for instance just as an Air Force's a fighter pilot just as an Air Force's a fighter pilot just as an Air Force's a fighter pilot we learned we had to hit what we were we learned we had to hit what we were we learned we had to hit what we were aiming at you know we've missed most of aiming at you know we've missed most of aiming at you know we've missed most of the targets I think our average miss the targets I think our average miss the targets I think our average miss distance in Vietnam was like a hundred distance in Vietnam was like a hundred distance in Vietnam was like a hundred meters you know and that's not good meters you know and that's not good meters you know and that's not good enough if you're going after a target enough if you're going after a target enough if you're going after a target like a bridge or a rugged vehicle like a like a bridge or a rugged vehicle like a like a bridge or a rugged vehicle like a tank or a truck so we invented precision tank or a truck so we invented precision tank or a truck so we invented precision guided munitions and you've seen the guided munitions and you've seen the guided munitions and you've seen the result a year since we learned we had to result a year since we learned we had to result a year since we learned we had to be able to operate at night and we now be able to operate at night and we now be able to operate at night and we now or nobody wants to fight us at night or nobody wants to fight us at night or nobody wants to fight us at night nowadays there are planted a time meter nowadays there are planted a time meter nowadays there are planted a time meter but we we really dominate night fighting but we we really dominate night fighting but we we really dominate night fighting now we learned that we had to be now we learned that we had to be now we learned that we had to be invisible invisible invisible on radar so we invented stealth aircraft on radar so we invented stealth aircraft on radar so we invented stealth aircraft so I mean from the standpoint of the so I mean from the standpoint of the so I mean from the standpoint of the professional military we learned a lot professional military we learned a lot professional military we learned a lot and we improved a lot because the war

and we improved a lot because the war and we improved a lot because the war lasted so long lasted so long lasted so long you know 10 years or all of us got to go you know 10 years or all of us got to go you know 10 years or all of us got to go there at least once we also wouldn't there at least once we also wouldn't there at least once we also wouldn't need to be fixed and we fixed it now if need to be fixed and we fixed it now if need to be fixed and we fixed it now if you not ask what did we learn you not ask what did we learn you not ask what did we learn politically or socially I think that the politically or socially I think that the politically or socially I think that the by and large the lessons were not by and large the lessons were not by and large the lessons were not learned at all or if they were they were learned at all or if they were they were learned at all or if they were they were forgotten we repeat the same mistakes forgotten we repeat the same mistakes forgotten we repeat the same mistakes you know war after war it seems to me so you know war after war it seems to me so you know war after war it seems to me so technically we learned a lot but big technically we learned a lot but big technically we learned a lot but big picture wise I think we we missed the picture wise I think we we missed the picture wise I think we we missed the boat you know I'm thinking about the boat you know I'm thinking about the boat you know I'm thinking about the concept in business of like concept in business of like concept in business of like institutional memory right the ideas institutional memory right the ideas institutional memory right the ideas that you know you have you have the the that you know you have you have the the that you know you have you have the the fact that the people can come and go in fact that the people can come and go in fact that the people can come and go in a large corporation but theoretically a large corporation but theoretically a large corporation but theoretically when new people come in they're trained when new people come in they're trained when new people come in they're trained with the lessons learned by the previous with the lessons learned by the previous with the lessons learned by the previous generation I'm thinking about generation I'm thinking about generation I'm thinking about institutional memory in the military so institutional memory in the military so institutional memory in the military so if you guys get a guy like william if you guys get a guy like william if you guys get a guy like william westmoreland who's the Second World War westmoreland who's the Second World War westmoreland who's the Second World War veteran knows how to fight that kind of veteran knows how to fight that kind of veteran knows how to fight that kind of war has to deal with this war has to deal with this war has to deal with this counterinsurgency situation in Vietnam counterinsurgency situation in Vietnam counterinsurgency situation in Vietnam theoretically learns what he's going to theoretically learns what he's going to theoretically learns what he's going to learn there but then Westmoreland learn there but then Westmoreland learn there but then Westmoreland retires the people who were right below retires the people who were right below retires the people who were right below him retire it is is his institutional him retire it is is his institutional him retire it is is his institutional memory in the military sphere a little memory in the military sphere a little memory in the military sphere a little like something like a bush in front of like something like a bush in front of like something like a bush in front of your yard that you have to keep cut back your yard that you have to keep cut back your yard that you have to keep cut back because every generation comes up we because every generation comes up we because every generation comes up we have to relearn some of those same have to relearn some of those same have to relearn some of those same things is there you know when you read things is there you know when you read things is there you know when you read like the Peloponnesian War and the stuff like the Peloponnesian War and the stuff like the Peloponnesian War and the stuff from ancient Athens there's the hubris from ancient Athens there's the hubris from ancient Athens there's the hubris element is Huber is something that that

element is Huber is something that that element is Huber is something that that a good punch in the nose can can teach a good punch in the nose can can teach a good punch in the nose can can teach you permanently or do you need to be you permanently or do you need to be you permanently or do you need to be reminded every now and then I mean I reminded every now and then I mean I reminded every now and then I mean I look at the dominance we have right now look at the dominance we have right now look at the dominance we have right now on the battlefield and I worry that if on the battlefield and I worry that if on the battlefield and I worry that if we got into a major conflict right now we got into a major conflict right now we got into a major conflict right now we don't have anyone in the we don't have anyone in the we don't have anyone in the institution's at the higher levels now institution's at the higher levels now institution's at the higher levels now that have fought for example in a real that have fought for example in a real that have fought for example in a real war against another first world military war against another first world military war against another first world military would they almost have to do like the would they almost have to do like the would they almost have to do like the reverse of what Westmoreland had to do reverse of what Westmoreland had to do reverse of what Westmoreland had to do where he had to learn to go from a world where he had to learn to go from a world where he had to learn to go from a world war 2 mentality to a counterinsurgency war 2 mentality to a counterinsurgency war 2 mentality to a counterinsurgency mentality mentality if we ever had to mentality mentality if we ever had to mentality mentality if we ever had to fight China in some islands off you know fight China in some islands off you know fight China in some islands off you know in the East in the East in the East see is that relearning a kind of warfare see is that relearning a kind of warfare see is that relearning a kind of warfare that Westmoreland understood but we that Westmoreland understood but we that Westmoreland understood but we haven't done in so long we don't know haven't done in so long we don't know haven't done in so long we don't know how to do anymore I'm sorry that's a how to do anymore I'm sorry that's a how to do anymore I'm sorry that's a really long question there but it's a really long question there but it's a really long question there but it's a wonderful question because you know wonderful question because you know wonderful question because you know you've always heard that we practice to you've always heard that we practice to you've always heard that we practice to fight the last war you know ha ha I fight the last war you know ha ha I fight the last war you know ha ha I think that's even giving too much credit look your question is our military look your question is our military organizations learning organizations organizations learning organizations organizations learning organizations that can benefit through experience I that can benefit through experience I that can benefit through experience I think they are but remember we fought think they are but remember we fought think they are but remember we fought Vietnam with a draftee force conscripted Vietnam with a draftee force conscripted Vietnam with a draftee force conscripted army and it was only after that that army and it was only after that that army and it was only after that that Nixon was really forced to abandon the Nixon was really forced to abandon the Nixon was really forced to abandon the draft and to create the all-volunteer draft and to create the all-volunteer draft and to create the all-volunteer force the all-volunteer force is a

force the all-volunteer force is a force the all-volunteer force is a different kind of army from a citizen different kind of army from a citizen different kind of army from a citizen based army and I think it's probably based army and I think it's probably based army and I think it's probably true that a professional force can be a true that a professional force can be a true that a professional force can be a learning organization whereas by and learning organization whereas by and learning organization whereas by and large citizen based armies are not large citizen based armies are not large citizen based armies are not because they're constantly taking in new because they're constantly taking in new because they're constantly taking in new guys or short term of service and they guys or short term of service and they guys or short term of service and they have to you know train them from the have to you know train them from the have to you know train them from the beginning every six months a but above beginning every six months a but above beginning every six months a but above bullet look it's a good question it's a bullet look it's a good question it's a bullet look it's a good question it's a profound question it goes back to the profound question it goes back to the profound question it goes back to the Peloponnesian wars or Polk before that Peloponnesian wars or Polk before that Peloponnesian wars or Polk before that as you say and I'm not sure you know as you say and I'm not sure you know as you say and I'm not sure you know that I have a total totally good answer that I have a total totally good answer that I have a total totally good answer to it I know that the army coming out of to it I know that the army coming out of to it I know that the army coming out of Vietnam was not happy with its Vietnam was not happy with its Vietnam was not happy with its performance in Westmoreland Westmoreland performance in Westmoreland Westmoreland performance in Westmoreland Westmoreland failures in particular and guys like failures in particular and guys like failures in particular and guys like norm short scoff and : Powell said about norm short scoff and : Powell said about norm short scoff and : Powell said about rebuilding the culture of the army and rebuilding the culture of the army and rebuilding the culture of the army and they the army who have today I think is they the army who have today I think is they the army who have today I think is considerably better considerably better considerably better and the one we had in Vietnam which was and the one we had in Vietnam which was and the one we had in Vietnam which was guilty of fragging its own officers and guilty of fragging its own officers and guilty of fragging its own officers and ant and senior NCOs and drug abuse and ant and senior NCOs and drug abuse and ant and senior NCOs and drug abuse and other forms of indisciplined on the other forms of indisciplined on the other forms of indisciplined on the front lines I don't think you see that

front lines I don't think you see that front lines I don't think you see that kind of army anymore so you'd have to kind of army anymore so you'd have to kind of army anymore so you'd have to say I think that that we did learn you say I think that that we did learn you say I think that that we did learn you know from that experience for me to know from that experience for me to know from that experience for me to larger lessons though are the policy larger lessons though are the policy larger lessons though are the policy level lessons of political lessons and level lessons of political lessons and level lessons of political lessons and there I see no evidence that we've there I see no evidence that we've there I see no evidence that we've learned very much and there I see that learned very much and there I see that learned very much and there I see that there's no ancient Greek problem of there's no ancient Greek problem of there's no ancient Greek problem of hubris still around you know in space hubris still around you know in space hubris still around you know in space doesn't it seem like because he seemed doesn't it seem like because he seemed doesn't it seem like because he seemed and again this may just be one person and again this may just be one person and again this may just be one person shooting an arrow and painting a shooting an arrow and painting a shooting an arrow and painting a bull's-eye around it afterwards but it bull's-eye around it afterwards but it bull's-eye around it afterwards but it seems to me that there's always this seems to me that there's always this seems to me that there's always this wonderful out that people who want to do wonderful out that people who want to do wonderful out that people who want to do something like I want to invade Russia something like I want to invade Russia something like I want to invade Russia and I'm the I'm the Nazi ver Mach than and I'm the I'm the Nazi ver Mach than and I'm the I'm the Nazi ver Mach than someone who comes up to me says well you someone who comes up to me says well you someone who comes up to me says well you know that didn't work out very well for know that didn't work out very well for know that didn't work out very well for Charles the 12th didn't work out very Charles the 12th didn't work out very Charles the 12th didn't work out very well for Napoleon but I want to invade well for Napoleon but I want to invade well for Napoleon but I want to invade Russia so I say yes but they didn't have Russia so I say yes but they didn't have Russia so I say yes but they didn't have the Luftwaffe and they didn't have the the Luftwaffe and they didn't have the the Luftwaffe and they didn't have the ver Mach therefore those historical ver Mach therefore those historical ver Mach therefore those historical lessons from the past are not applicable lessons from the past are not applicable lessons from the past are not applicable and I feel like there's a human tendency and I feel like there's a human tendency and I feel like there's a human tendency to do that even now for example to say to do that even now for example to say to do that even now for example to say if our military today went and rethought if our military today went and rethought if our military today went and rethought the Vietnam War in the 21st century we the Vietnam War in the 21st century we the Vietnam War in the 21st century we could do that and we could win because could do that and we could win because could do that and we could win because of all this stuff we have that we didn't of all this stuff we have that we didn't of all this stuff we have that we didn't have back then in other words we can go have back then in other words we can go have back then in other words we can go into Afghanistan and it won't be the into Afghanistan and it won't be the into Afghanistan and it won't be the graveyard of Empires because they didn't graveyard of Empires because they didn't graveyard of Empires because they didn't have smart bombs in those old days um do have smart bombs in those old days um do have smart bombs in those old days um do you think that there's any validity to you think that there's any validity to you think that there's any validity to that way of thinking is that a little that way of thinking is that a little that way of thinking is that a little bit of a of a human nature sort of thing bit of a of a human nature sort of thing bit of a of a human nature sort of thing or is there something you can do or is there something you can do or is there something you can do institutionally that says listen this is institutionally that says listen this is institutionally that says listen this is how human beings behave so let's

how human beings behave so let's how human beings behave so let's insulate ourselves from that typical insulate ourselves from that typical insulate ourselves from that typical human tendency does that make sense yeah human tendency does that make sense yeah human tendency does that make sense yeah there is an element of Shakespearean there is an element of Shakespearean there is an element of Shakespearean tragedy told told as I'm in man is a tragedy told told as I'm in man is a tragedy told told as I'm in man is a failed creature right and so you see failed creature right and so you see failed creature right and so you see these foibles pop up time and again let these foibles pop up time and again let these foibles pop up time and again let me I will say this dad I think the me I will say this dad I think the me I will say this dad I think the professional military especially at the professional military especially at the professional military especially at the senior level senior level senior level are reluctant fighters that's been my are reluctant fighters that's been my are reluctant fighters that's been my experience now I you know I didn't know experience now I you know I didn't know experience now I you know I didn't know George Patton but by and large from my George Patton but by and large from my George Patton but by and large from my experience in the JCS and senior experience in the JCS and senior experience in the JCS and senior Washington levels there's nobody looking Washington levels there's nobody looking Washington levels there's nobody looking for a fight there their advice for a fight there their advice for a fight there their advice uniformly has been slowed down you know uniformly has been slowed down you know uniformly has been slowed down you know it really didn't work for Napoleon so so it really didn't work for Napoleon so so it really didn't work for Napoleon so so it's on the civilian side in the case of it's on the civilian side in the case of it's on the civilian side in the case of Middle East problems that we're having Middle East problems that we're having Middle East problems that we're having still today the neo cons you know the still today the neo cons you know the still today the neo cons you know the guys who had never worn a uniform Dick guys who had never worn a uniform Dick guys who had never worn a uniform Dick Cheney you know had seven excuses for Cheney you know had seven excuses for Cheney you know had seven excuses for not going to Vietnam and the people not going to Vietnam and the people not going to Vietnam and the people around him and at those levels there around him and at those levels there around him and at those levels there were anxious to go back and do Iraq were anxious to go back and do Iraq were anxious to go back and do Iraq again you know to really get Saddam again you know to really get Saddam again you know to really get Saddam Hussein this time that wasn't military Hussein this time that wasn't military Hussein this time that wasn't military that was wasn't political people and so

that was wasn't political people and so that was wasn't political people and so the hubris that I have seen has been the hubris that I have seen has been the hubris that I have seen has been where in the dark blue suits not where in the dark blue suits not where in the dark blue suits not uniforms interesting I admit general uniforms interesting I admit general uniforms interesting I admit general mattis once and he had basically said mattis once and he had basically said mattis once and he had basically said something similar he was very cognizant something similar he was very cognizant something similar he was very cognizant of the limitations of military power of the limitations of military power of the limitations of military power when when I was talking to him um so when when I was talking to him um so when when I was talking to him um so then let me ask you this then I it seems then let me ask you this then I it seems then let me ask you this then I it seems to me that there's an institutional bias to me that there's an institutional bias to me that there's an institutional bias in this country and it's a human thing in this country and it's a human thing in this country and it's a human thing it's I don't blame anyone against let's it's I don't blame anyone against let's it's I don't blame anyone against let's call it the can't do general as opposed call it the can't do general as opposed call it the can't do general as opposed to the can do general so let's say we're to the can do general so let's say we're to the can do general so let's say we're talking about the 50th anniversary of talking about the 50th anniversary of talking about the 50th anniversary of Ted and we're talking about Vietnam and Ted and we're talking about Vietnam and Ted and we're talking about Vietnam and Johnson or Nixon brings in a couple of Johnson or Nixon brings in a couple of Johnson or Nixon brings in a couple of military advisers and out of the five of military advisers and out of the five of military advisers and out of the five of them four of them say of course we can them four of them say of course we can them four of them say of course we can win this war let me tell you how to do win this war let me tell you how to do win this war let me tell you how to do it put me in charge and I'll do it it put me in charge and I'll do it it put me in charge and I'll do it and one guy says no no no you're not and one guy says no no no you're not and one guy says no no no you're not gonna win this it's over let's figure gonna win this it's over let's figure gonna win this it's over let's figure out a way to get out of here with honor out a way to get out of here with honor out a way to get out of here with honor isn't there a natural tendency to say isn't there a natural tendency to say isn't there a natural tendency to say listen the can't do guy I'm not gonna go listen the can't do guy I'm not gonna go listen the can't do guy I'm not gonna go with that I'm gonna go with somebody who with that I'm gonna go with somebody who with that I'm gonna go with somebody who tells me he can get it done and isn't tells me he can get it done and isn't tells me he can get it done and isn't there a sense in the military of I don't there a sense in the military of I don't there a sense in the military of I don't want to be the guy that says we can't do want to be the guy that says we can't do want to be the guy that says we can't do this I don't want to be thought of as this I don't want to be thought of as this I don't want to be thought of as the guy you know who says this is the guy you know who says this is the guy you know who says this is unwinnable of course you put me in unwinnable of course you put me in unwinnable of course you put me in charge and I'll get it done seems to me charge and I'll get it done seems to me charge and I'll get it done seems to me that it's that it's that it's tough for someone to stand up in that tough for someone to stand up in that tough for someone to stand up in that sort of situation say let's not do this sort of situation say let's not do this sort of situation say let's not do this we wouldn't be successful it wouldn't be we wouldn't be successful it wouldn't be we wouldn't be successful it wouldn't be prudent does that have any and when prudent does that have any and when prudent does that have any and when you're talking about the institutional you're talking about the institutional you're talking about the institutional failures with the people who wear suits failures with the people who wear suits failures with the people who wear suits is that a problem that they're gonna run is that a problem that they're gonna run is that a problem that they're gonna run into you know Dan again you put a very into you know Dan again you put a very into you know Dan again you put a very deep question to me here but let me just deep question to me here but let me just deep question to me here but let me just say that isn't the way I have seen the

say that isn't the way I have seen the say that isn't the way I have seen the problem formulated during my time in problem formulated during my time in problem formulated during my time in Washington now I'm sure this changes as Washington now I'm sure this changes as Washington now I'm sure this changes as the cast of characters changes in the cast of characters changes in the cast of characters changes in Washington but typically the president Washington but typically the president Washington but typically the president doesn't ask advice of five guys and you doesn't ask advice of five guys and you doesn't ask advice of five guys and you know for him say yeah I can do it one know for him say yeah I can do it one know for him say yeah I can do it one says no that what the president says is says no that what the president says is says no that what the president says is hey we got a problem here what are my hey we got a problem here what are my hey we got a problem here what are my options options options so he's not looking for a yes/no answer so he's not looking for a yes/no answer so he's not looking for a yes/no answer it's not a binary problem what he's it's not a binary problem what he's it's not a binary problem what he's looking for is you know give me half a looking for is you know give me half a looking for is you know give me half a dozen things I might do here tell me the dozen things I might do here tell me the dozen things I might do here tell me the frozen the cons of each thing and let me frozen the cons of each thing and let me frozen the cons of each thing and let me make a decision so in that case it's if make a decision so in that case it's if make a decision so in that case it's if you're opposed to taking a military you're opposed to taking a military you're opposed to taking a military action you just put it in the cons you action you just put it in the cons you action you just put it in the cons you say here's the cost you know we're going say here's the cost you know we're going say here's the cost you know we're going to lose friends around the world we're to lose friends around the world we're to lose friends around the world we're going to lose international standing going to lose international standing going to lose international standing traits gonna dry up or whatever you can traits gonna dry up or whatever you can traits gonna dry up or whatever you can put an econ in you want but but the the put an econ in you want but but the the put an econ in you want but but the the proper approach from the military proper approach from the military proper approach from the military advisor standpoint is to say okay if you advisor standpoint is to say okay if you advisor standpoint is to say okay if you want to do this here's how you here are want to do this here's how you here are want to do this here's how you here are a set of options and the and the and the a set of options and the and the and the a set of options and the and the and the and the pluses and minuses that go with and the pluses and minuses that go with and the pluses and minuses that go with them and then it's up to you so it's a them and then it's up to you so it's a them and then it's up to you so it's a little different formulation and the one little different formulation and the one little different formulation and the one you put okay so if you're the military you put okay so if you're the military you put okay so if you're the military advisor and you've been in the role of advisor and you've been in the role of advisor and you've been in the role of you've been a chief of staff before you you've been a chief of staff before you you've been a chief of staff before you you've been the Air Force a four-star you've been the Air Force a four-star you've been the Air Force a four-star general here if somebody comes you the

general here if somebody comes you the general here if somebody comes you the president I need your advice on this and president I need your advice on this and president I need your advice on this and he says something to the effect of oh he says something to the effect of oh he says something to the effect of oh god I'm losing my train of thought god I'm losing my train of thought god I'm losing my train of thought general I'm getting old now 52 it's just general I'm getting old now 52 it's just general I'm getting old now 52 it's just I know I'm getting their aging quickly I know I'm getting their aging quickly I know I'm getting their aging quickly um um um if okay here's what I wanted to get with if okay here's what I wanted to get with if okay here's what I wanted to get with that so so the old line about the that so so the old line about the that so so the old line about the Vietnam War was the political nature of Vietnam War was the political nature of Vietnam War was the political nature of the president for example operating as a the president for example operating as a the president for example operating as a person who's picking tactical targets person who's picking tactical targets person who's picking tactical targets you know for aircraft to bomb and yet you know for aircraft to bomb and yet you know for aircraft to bomb and yet the old argument that we learned back in the old argument that we learned back in the old argument that we learned back in in military history class for why that in military history class for why that in military history class for why that might have been necessary was the might have been necessary was the might have been necessary was the president's got to worry about you know president's got to worry about you know president's got to worry about you know Soviet involvement the threats of Soviet involvement the threats of Soviet involvement the threats of nuclear war you know other things nuclear war you know other things nuclear war you know other things happening including maybe funding the happening including maybe funding the happening including maybe funding the very people you're fighting at a higher very people you're fighting at a higher very people you're fighting at a higher level to compensate whereas the guys on level to compensate whereas the guys on level to compensate whereas the guys on the ground the military leaders are the ground the military leaders are the ground the military leaders are worried about okay how do I get victory worried about okay how do I get victory worried about okay how do I get victory in this theater of operations um what is in this theater of operations um what is in this theater of operations um what is the proper balance in your mind between the proper balance in your mind between the proper balance in your mind between a president who's got to worry about the a president who's got to worry about the a president who's got to worry about the you know the grand strategy across the you know the grand strategy across the you know the grand strategy across the world and the general who's got to say world and the general who's got to say world and the general who's got to say listen if you just take your hands off listen if you just take your hands off listen if you just take your hands off of me I'll win this theater for you how of me I'll win this theater for you how of me I'll win this theater for you how do you see the balance of the general do you see the balance of the general do you see the balance of the general says you know general McPeak if the says you know general McPeak if the says you know general McPeak if the president says general mcpeak help me president says general mcpeak help me president says general mcpeak help me out here what do you tell them to do out here what do you tell them to do out here what do you tell them to do visa vie allowing generals to have a visa vie allowing generals to have a visa vie allowing generals to have a free hand versus a Lyndon Johnson who's free hand versus a Lyndon Johnson who's free hand versus a Lyndon Johnson who's maybe more worried about the Soviet maybe more worried about the Soviet maybe more worried about the Soviet Union than he is about making sure no Union than he is about making sure no Union than he is about making sure no more resupply ships get into Haiphong more resupply ships get into Haiphong more resupply ships get into Haiphong Harbor yeah well this is a problem which

Harbor yeah well this is a problem which Harbor yeah well this is a problem which is at the heart of limited warfare if is at the heart of limited warfare if is at the heart of limited warfare if for instance you asked Curt LeMay what for instance you asked Curt LeMay what for instance you asked Curt LeMay what because it's represented he would say because it's represented he would say because it's represented he would say bomb him back into the Stone Age in fact bomb him back into the Stone Age in fact bomb him back into the Stone Age in fact he did say that and we could have won I he did say that and we could have won I he did say that and we could have won I mean it had we nuked an away the war mean it had we nuked an away the war mean it had we nuked an away the war would have been over right so the war would have been over right so the war would have been over right so the war was always winnable it was just a was always winnable it was just a was always winnable it was just a question of what mean how limited are question of what mean how limited are question of what mean how limited are the means you want to use you so you're the means you want to use you so you're the means you want to use you so you're going to president say okay going to president say okay going to president say okay I'm assuming you don't want to do to use I'm assuming you don't want to do to use I'm assuming you don't want to do to use nuclear weapons I mean we have an nuclear weapons I mean we have an nuclear weapons I mean we have an instant case right now that's very instant case right now that's very instant case right now that's very relevant North Korea relevant North Korea relevant North Korea so if we seek to intervene in North so if we seek to intervene in North so if we seek to intervene in North Korea the first question we should ask Korea the first question we should ask Korea the first question we should ask ourselves is this a limited war or the ourselves is this a limited war or the ourselves is this a limited war or the means we're going to use limited now and means we're going to use limited now and means we're going to use limited now and not just the means here we have a not just the means here we have a not just the means here we have a limited amount of time no are you going limited amount of time no are you going limited amount of time no are you going to put a limit on the amount of money we to put a limit on the amount of money we to put a limit on the amount of money we can spend so you have to decide all of can spend so you have to decide all of can spend so you have to decide all of the boundaries of the limitations you're the boundaries of the limitations you're the boundaries of the limitations you're going to put on warfare and then that going to put on warfare and then that going to put on warfare and then that has to be bought by the president I mean has to be bought by the president I mean has to be bought by the president I mean you have to tell President Johnson ok if you have to tell President Johnson ok if you have to tell President Johnson ok if I have to worry more about the Soviet I have to worry more about the Soviet I have to worry more about the Soviet Union and I do a winning in quotes and Union and I do a winning in quotes and Union and I do a winning in quotes and say in South Vietnam that's that's fine

say in South Vietnam that's that's fine say in South Vietnam that's that's fine just tell me that and that means I can't just tell me that and that means I can't just tell me that and that means I can't mine Hanoi Harbor and blow up some mine Hanoi Harbor and blow up some mine Hanoi Harbor and blow up some Soviet boat now are you willing to live Soviet boat now are you willing to live Soviet boat now are you willing to live with that so the president has to with that so the president has to with that so the president has to understand then the nature of the war understand then the nature of the war understand then the nature of the war it's going to be limited and that means it's going to be limited and that means it's going to be limited and that means we may or may not win if it's unlimited we may or may not win if it's unlimited we may or may not win if it's unlimited I know we can beat North Vietnam or I know we can beat North Vietnam or I know we can beat North Vietnam or North Korea any time so the first North Korea any time so the first North Korea any time so the first question you have to ask are what question you have to ask are what question you have to ask are what limitations are you going to put on me limitations are you going to put on me limitations are you going to put on me so we understand all that now typically so we understand all that now typically so we understand all that now typically today we don't talk in terms of limited today we don't talk in terms of limited today we don't talk in terms of limited war we talk in terms of rules of war we talk in terms of rules of war we talk in terms of rules of engagement what rules of engagement is engagement what rules of engagement is engagement what rules of engagement is the President or the Secretary of the President or the Secretary of the President or the Secretary of Defense or the theater commander or Defense or the theater commander or Defense or the theater commander or whatever going to and boson operations whatever going to and boson operations whatever going to and boson operations and we we need to be eyes wide open and we we need to be eyes wide open and we we need to be eyes wide open about that up front now inside the rules about that up front now inside the rules about that up front now inside the rules of engagement I would argue you ought to of engagement I would argue you ought to of engagement I would argue you ought to give the military guy as much give the military guy as much give the military guy as much flexibility as possible I don't want the flexibility as possible I don't want the flexibility as possible I don't want the president picking targets in the president picking targets in the president picking targets in the basement of the White House no because basement of the White House no because basement of the White House no because he doesn't know much about targeting his he doesn't know much about targeting his he doesn't know much about targeting his defense you know he's going to pick the defense you know he's going to pick the defense you know he's going to pick the wrong targets or he's going to tell me wrong targets or he's going to tell me wrong targets or he's going to tell me to attack them from the wrong direction to attack them from the wrong direction to attack them from the wrong direction or he's going to tell me to use the or he's going to tell me to use the or he's going to tell me to use the wrong munitions or he's going to tell me wrong munitions or he's going to tell me wrong munitions or he's going to tell me to send too few airplanes or too many to send too few airplanes or too many to send too few airplanes or too many airplanes those are those are questions airplanes those are those are questions airplanes those are those are questions that he knows very little about that he knows very little about that he knows very little about and what he needs to do is if those and what he needs to do is if those and what he needs to do is if those rules of engagement tell me what the

rules of engagement tell me what the rules of engagement tell me what the limitations are and leave me alone and limitations are and leave me alone and limitations are and leave me alone and then as long as I operate inside the then as long as I operate inside the then as long as I operate inside the limitation she should never have a you limitation she should never have a you limitation she should never have a you know any kind of a quibble or complaint know any kind of a quibble or complaint know any kind of a quibble or complaint about how I'm doing and what the result about how I'm doing and what the result about how I'm doing and what the result is as a consequence you know the fact is is as a consequence you know the fact is is as a consequence you know the fact is we never lost a battle in Vietnam we we never lost a battle in Vietnam we we never lost a battle in Vietnam we just lost the war and so even and I'm just lost the war and so even and I'm just lost the war and so even and I'm not a big fan of Westmoreland I regard not a big fan of Westmoreland I regard not a big fan of Westmoreland I regard him as rather dumb I mean there's what him as rather dumb I mean there's what him as rather dumb I mean there's what he did tried to do was stupid in my he did tried to do was stupid in my he did tried to do was stupid in my opinion and not much much not much opinion and not much much not much opinion and not much much not much improved when he was succeeded by Abrams improved when he was succeeded by Abrams improved when he was succeeded by Abrams although there's a big school of thought although there's a big school of thought although there's a big school of thought that says Abrams was a much more that says Abrams was a much more that says Abrams was a much more talented officer and we were on the talented officer and we were on the talented officer and we were on the right track once we got rid of right track once we got rid of right track once we got rid of Westmoreland but in any case you know Westmoreland but in any case you know Westmoreland but in any case you know the point is that there are things that the point is that there are things that the point is that there are things that politicians are expert in and there are politicians are expert in and there are politicians are expert in and there are things that professional military are things that professional military are things that professional military are expert in and we need to understand who expert in and we need to understand who expert in and we need to understand who does what here when you're picking does what here when you're picking does what here when you're picking targets in the basement of the White targets in the basement of the White targets in the basement of the White House you're on the wrong track and you House you're on the wrong track and you House you're on the wrong track and you are going to lose in my opinion because are going to lose in my opinion because are going to lose in my opinion because you got the wrong guy doing the wrong you got the wrong guy doing the wrong you got the wrong guy doing the wrong thing let's talk about on the right thing let's talk about on the right thing let's talk about on the right track I think that's a key point so when track I think that's a key point so when track I think that's a key point so when I'm watching Ken Burns's Vietnam I'm watching Ken Burns's Vietnam I'm watching Ken Burns's Vietnam documentary one of the things that just documentary one of the things that just documentary one of the things that just screams at you I was reminded once again screams at you I was reminded once again screams at you I was reminded once again of the veterans coming into the class I of the veterans coming into the class I of the veterans coming into the class I was in in the 1980s was screams that she

was in in the 1980s was screams that she was in in the 1980s was screams that she was that you don't have any real way of was that you don't have any real way of was that you don't have any real way of determining how you're doing at any determining how you're doing at any determining how you're doing at any given time I mean the classic way that given time I mean the classic way that given time I mean the classic way that was used was body count but we was used was body count but we was used was body count but we understand that if you don't have body understand that if you don't have body understand that if you don't have body counts it's even with but how do you counts it's even with but how do you counts it's even with but how do you measure progress in a way that's helpful measure progress in a way that's helpful measure progress in a way that's helpful to the heads of the military the to the heads of the military the to the heads of the military the political heads and the population as a political heads and the population as a political heads and the population as a whole and we could apply this to the whole and we could apply this to the whole and we could apply this to the situation in the Middle East for example situation in the Middle East for example situation in the Middle East for example right now I mean how do you gauge right now I mean how do you gauge right now I mean how do you gauge progress and if progress isn't going the progress and if progress isn't going the progress and if progress isn't going the way you want do you double down on the way you want do you double down on the way you want do you double down on the efforts or do you determine that maybe I efforts or do you determine that maybe I efforts or do you determine that maybe I mean are we even capable of cutting mean are we even capable of cutting mean are we even capable of cutting loose was there ever another choice in loose was there ever another choice in loose was there ever another choice in Vietnam we act like we could Vietnam we act like we could Vietnam we act like we could just said listen we're losing the war so just said listen we're losing the war so just said listen we're losing the war so let's get out but it isn't the most let's get out but it isn't the most let's get out but it isn't the most difficult thing in the world to difficult thing in the world to difficult thing in the world to disengage from combat with an enemy disengage from combat with an enemy disengage from combat with an enemy strategic level or tactical level so I strategic level or tactical level so I strategic level or tactical level so I guess what I'm asking is um how do you guess what I'm asking is um how do you guess what I'm asking is um how do you gauge progress whether or not you're gauge progress whether or not you're gauge progress whether or not you're winning or losing and then do you notice winning or losing and then do you notice winning or losing and then do you notice if it's not in your interest to notice if it's not in your interest to notice if it's not in your interest to notice that your for example not winning um you that your for example not winning um you that your for example not winning um you know can you get back because in this know can you get back because in this know can you get back because in this Vietnam War you're looking at these Vietnam War you're looking at these Vietnam War you're looking at these people that just seemed in retrospect people that just seemed in retrospect people that just seemed in retrospect they look like they know the war is over they look like they know the war is over they look like they know the war is over but they can't say it they can't prove but they can't say it they can't prove but they can't say it they can't prove it they can't they can't operate or do it they can't they can't operate or do it they can't they can't operate or do anything about it they seem frozen in anything about it they seem frozen in anything about it they seem frozen in the condition so there seems to me to be the condition so there seems to me to be the condition so there seems to me to be a real need to be able to measure a real need to be able to measure a real need to be able to measure progress and then have some sort of progress and then have some sort of progress and then have some sort of reaction to the data you're getting um reaction to the data you're getting um reaction to the data you're getting um can you can you suggest a way maybe we can you can you suggest a way maybe we can you can you suggest a way maybe we could do that in the Middle East right could do that in the Middle East right could do that in the Middle East right now and if we decided it wasn't going now and if we decided it wasn't going now and if we decided it wasn't going well what do you do then well I mean is

well what do you do then well I mean is well what do you do then well I mean is this the crux of the issue right are we this the crux of the issue right are we this the crux of the issue right are we winning or losing and if we're winning winning or losing and if we're winning winning or losing and if we're winning or losing what do you do about it I or losing what do you do about it I or losing what do you do about it I don't think it's going well in the don't think it's going well in the don't think it's going well in the Middle East just to get quickly to the Middle East just to get quickly to the Middle East just to get quickly to the answer but you know there used to be a answer but you know there used to be a answer but you know there used to be a way of judging it was pretty easy and way of judging it was pretty easy and way of judging it was pretty easy and that is territory you won if if you that is territory you won if if you that is territory you won if if you prevailed if you held the battlefields prevailed if you held the battlefields prevailed if you held the battlefields at the end and the other guy left you at the end and the other guy left you at the end and the other guy left you were winning right so Churchill could be were winning right so Churchill could be were winning right so Churchill could be very worried about what was going on in very worried about what was going on in very worried about what was going on in North Africa because Rommel pushed all North Africa because Rommel pushed all North Africa because Rommel pushed all the way to Alamein you know he was the way to Alamein you know he was the way to Alamein you know he was inside Egypt right so Cairo and the Suez inside Egypt right so Cairo and the Suez inside Egypt right so Cairo and the Suez Canal was threatened because the Canal was threatened because the Canal was threatened because the geography told Churchill that he was geography told Churchill that he was geography told Churchill that he was losing so we replaced whoever it was losing so we replaced whoever it was losing so we replaced whoever it was with Montgomery it's not so in a linear with Montgomery it's not so in a linear with Montgomery it's not so in a linear war where armies faced each other war where armies faced each other war where armies faced each other you can tell who's winning by where the you can tell who's winning by where the you can tell who's winning by where the front line is at what direction it's front line is at what direction it's front line is at what direction it's moving moving moving or at least that's that's one gross or at least that's that's one gross or at least that's that's one gross approximation now if you're fighting in approximation now if you're fighting in approximation now if you're fighting in Gettysburg you're not in good shape Gettysburg you're not in good shape Gettysburg you're not in good shape yeah totally okay no you got to be yeah totally okay no you got to be yeah totally okay no you got to be fighting in Chancellorsville or fighting in Chancellorsville or fighting in Chancellorsville or someplace down south someplace down south someplace down south now it's not so easy anymore with now it's not so easy anymore with now it's not so easy anymore with stateless actors like Isis or you know stateless actors like Isis or you know stateless actors like Isis or you know suicide bombers how can you tell if

suicide bombers how can you tell if suicide bombers how can you tell if you're winning I mean the guys doesn't you're winning I mean the guys doesn't you're winning I mean the guys doesn't have any territory to capture he doesn't have any territory to capture he doesn't have any territory to capture he doesn't have a National Treasury that you can have a National Treasury that you can have a National Treasury that you can loot he doesn't even really have a life loot he doesn't even really have a life loot he doesn't even really have a life worth living otherwise he wouldn't be in worth living otherwise he wouldn't be in worth living otherwise he wouldn't be in the suicide bombing business right he the suicide bombing business right he the suicide bombing business right he doesn't care about his own life so in doesn't care about his own life so in doesn't care about his own life so in this in this kind of war how do you this in this kind of war how do you this in this kind of war how do you judge where you are I don't think we judge where you are I don't think we judge where you are I don't think we have a ready answer to that you know have a ready answer to that you know have a ready answer to that you know there's there if we had a sort of an there's there if we had a sort of an there's there if we had a sort of an index of violence if they well the index of violence if they well the index of violence if they well the violence is down and we kind of have violence is down and we kind of have violence is down and we kind of have that but in Afghanistan now we have the that but in Afghanistan now we have the that but in Afghanistan now we have the Taliban bombing again inside Kabul right Taliban bombing again inside Kabul right Taliban bombing again inside Kabul right and so the number you can plot the and so the number you can plot the and so the number you can plot the number of incidents on a graph and to number of incidents on a graph and to number of incidents on a graph and to say well they're more incidents this say well they're more incidents this say well they're more incidents this month than there were last month you're month than there were last month you're month than there were last month you're not doing very well and in fact that's not doing very well and in fact that's not doing very well and in fact that's what I am doing in the Middle East house what I am doing in the Middle East house what I am doing in the Middle East house were subjectively I don't you know I were subjectively I don't you know I were subjectively I don't you know I don't have a chart in my office that I don't have a chart in my office that I don't have a chart in my office that I keep track of this specifically but it keep track of this specifically but it keep track of this specifically but it seems to me I get I have a sense that seems to me I get I have a sense that seems to me I get I have a sense that we're not doing very well we're not doing very well we're not doing very well in Afghanistan and in Iraq and you know in Afghanistan and in Iraq and you know in Afghanistan and in Iraq and you know I I don't know how to come unstuck from I I don't know how to come unstuck from I I don't know how to come unstuck from it this is a tar-baby kind of deal where it this is a tar-baby kind of deal where it this is a tar-baby kind of deal where you say gee I wish I could figure out you say gee I wish I could figure out you say gee I wish I could figure out how to get out of here with my pride and how to get out of here with my pride and how to get out of here with my pride and you know reputation and shape I don't

you know reputation and shape I don't you know reputation and shape I don't see a way to do it we're kind of stuck see a way to do it we're kind of stuck see a way to do it we're kind of stuck to the problem in the Middle East and to the problem in the Middle East and to the problem in the Middle East and who knows how to judge whether we're who knows how to judge whether we're who knows how to judge whether we're doing better or poorer than we were you doing better or poorer than we were you doing better or poorer than we were you know a month ago a year ago know a month ago a year ago know a month ago a year ago five years ago hard to say I'm just you five years ago hard to say I'm just you five years ago hard to say I'm just you know it's funny you say that I wasn't know it's funny you say that I wasn't know it's funny you say that I wasn't expecting that answer because it leads expecting that answer because it leads expecting that answer because it leads you to the next question which is if you you to the next question which is if you you to the next question which is if you can't figure out how you're doing and if can't figure out how you're doing and if can't figure out how you're doing and if you really don't have any options if you really don't have any options if you really don't have any options if you're totally stuck you know I remember you're totally stuck you know I remember you're totally stuck you know I remember being told a long time ago by my being told a long time ago by my being told a long time ago by my stepfather who was trying to explain to stepfather who was trying to explain to stepfather who was trying to explain to me that the wide range of presidential me that the wide range of presidential me that the wide range of presidential actions that I always assumed was actions that I always assumed was actions that I always assumed was possible was a myth and that when you possible was a myth and that when you possible was a myth and that when you actually got into the office it was actually got into the office it was actually got into the office it was really much more constrained by by what really much more constrained by by what really much more constrained by by what your predecessor left you a bunch of your predecessor left you a bunch of your predecessor left you a bunch of other things like you know I can't fight other things like you know I can't fight other things like you know I can't fight the Vietnam War the way I want because the Vietnam War the way I want because the Vietnam War the way I want because the Soviet Union might get involved when the Soviet Union might get involved when the Soviet Union might get involved when you look at the current let's call it you look at the current let's call it you look at the current let's call it the war on terror situation I don't see the war on terror situation I don't see the war on terror situation I don't see I mean how do you get out of that win I I mean how do you get out of that win I I mean how do you get out of that win I mean you know the old the old equation mean you know the old the old equation mean you know the old the old equation which is it costs these elements that which is it costs these elements that which is it costs these elements that were fighting pennies on the dollar were fighting pennies on the dollar were fighting pennies on the dollar compared to what it costs for us to compared to what it costs for us to compared to what it costs for us to counter them I mean the long-term counter them I mean the long-term counter them I mean the long-term graphing out of that situation looks graphing out of that situation looks graphing out of that situation looks horrible if you you know if I feel like horrible if you you know if I feel like horrible if you you know if I feel like we could be doing a documentary with Ken we could be doing a documentary with Ken we could be doing a documentary with Ken Burns a hundred and fifty year old Ken Burns a hundred and fifty year old Ken Burns a hundred and fifty year old Ken Burns years from now having the same Burns years from now having the same Burns years from now having the same conversation about the current situation conversation about the current situation conversation about the current situation we're in in the war on terror that I we're in in the war on terror that I we're in in the war on terror that I just saw the other night when I was just saw the other night when I was just saw the other night when I was watching the Vietnam War documentary and watching the Vietnam War documentary and watching the Vietnam War documentary and if that's the case you know you get this if that's the case you know you get this if that's the case you know you get this feeling like deja vu all over again or a

feeling like deja vu all over again or a feeling like deja vu all over again or a train wreck that you've seen before and train wreck that you've seen before and train wreck that you've seen before and that it's happening in slow-motion but that it's happening in slow-motion but that it's happening in slow-motion but you're finding out exactly how limited you're finding out exactly how limited you're finding out exactly how limited the people in the late 60s were in terms the people in the late 60s were in terms the people in the late 60s were in terms of their options does it feel like that of their options does it feel like that of their options does it feel like that to you at all or does it seem like a to you at all or does it seem like a to you at all or does it seem like a topic because the context of the Cold topic because the context of the Cold topic because the context of the Cold War and all that is so different how War and all that is so different how War and all that is so different how similar to you would you feel if you similar to you would you feel if you similar to you would you feel if you were a president in office in Lyndon were a president in office in Lyndon were a president in office in Lyndon Baines Johnson's chair versus Donald Baines Johnson's chair versus Donald Baines Johnson's chair versus Donald Trump's chair this look a key issue is Trump's chair this look a key issue is Trump's chair this look a key issue is how do you define victory another way of how do you define victory another way of how do you define victory another way of saying that or what our what's our saying that or what our what's our saying that or what our what's our purpose here what's our goal if you tell purpose here what's our goal if you tell purpose here what's our goal if you tell me what our purpose is in the Middle me what our purpose is in the Middle me what our purpose is in the Middle East I'll tell you how we're doing you East I'll tell you how we're doing you East I'll tell you how we're doing you tell me how to define victory in the tell me how to define victory in the tell me how to define victory in the Middle East and I'll tell you whether Middle East and I'll tell you whether Middle East and I'll tell you whether we're on the 10-yard line the 15-yard we're on the 10-yard line the 15-yard we're on the 10-yard line the 15-yard line fifty year line fifty year line fifty year line where we are but I don't recall line where we are but I don't recall line where we are but I don't recall anybody ever saying here's our objective anybody ever saying here's our objective anybody ever saying here's our objective you know here's here's how we would you know here's here's how we would you know here's here's how we would define victory and if you don't have a define victory and if you don't have a define victory and if you don't have a definition of victory then you don't definition of victory then you don't definition of victory then you don't know when to quit or our when to retire know when to quit or our when to retire know when to quit or our when to retire or how to get out you know because you or how to get out you know because you or how to get out you know because you can't tell you know we we'd like to I can't tell you know we we'd like to I can't tell you know we we'd like to I mean George W Bush famously went on a mean George W Bush famously went on a mean George W Bush famously went on a aircraft carrier and stood under a sign aircraft carrier and stood under a sign aircraft carrier and stood under a sign that said mission accomplished remember that said mission accomplished remember that said mission accomplished remember that that was how many years ago so at

that that was how many years ago so at that that was how many years ago so at least 15 we're still in Iraq if our least 15 we're still in Iraq if our least 15 we're still in Iraq if our mission was accomplished when George W mission was accomplished when George W mission was accomplished when George W Bush went on that boat and declared Bush went on that boat and declared Bush went on that boat and declared victory what the heck are we still doing victory what the heck are we still doing victory what the heck are we still doing in Iraq well then you get back we get to in Iraq well then you get back we get to in Iraq well then you get back we get to the same question though about I mean the same question though about I mean the same question though about I mean okay is this is everything we're facing okay is this is everything we're facing okay is this is everything we're facing now sort of a bit of blowback I mean do now sort of a bit of blowback I mean do now sort of a bit of blowback I mean do did we stir up a hornet's nest and we're did we stir up a hornet's nest and we're did we stir up a hornet's nest and we're still dealing with individual Hornets still dealing with individual Hornets still dealing with individual Hornets and it would have been better had we and it would have been better had we and it would have been better had we left you know the Hornet and chief left you know the Hornet and chief left you know the Hornet and chief Saddam Hussein in charge because at Saddam Hussein in charge because at Saddam Hussein in charge because at least we weren't the ones who had to least we weren't the ones who had to least we weren't the ones who had to pick up the pieces I mean I guess you pick up the pieces I mean I guess you pick up the pieces I mean I guess you know what a mature armchair historians know what a mature armchair historians know what a mature armchair historians like yours truly do general as you like yours truly do general as you like yours truly do general as you almost certainly know as we look at almost certainly know as we look at almost certainly know as we look at these and we try to find meaning from these and we try to find meaning from these and we try to find meaning from the past which is this this this the past which is this this this the past which is this this this horrible fool's game but but but I mean horrible fool's game but but but I mean horrible fool's game but but but I mean when you look at this you go I mean you when you look at this you go I mean you when you look at this you go I mean you almost get to a point where you say almost get to a point where you say almost get to a point where you say would Saddam Hussein and the Middle East would Saddam Hussein and the Middle East would Saddam Hussein and the Middle East we had in 1991 be an applicable trade we had in 1991 be an applicable trade we had in 1991 be an applicable trade that a modern politician would would that a modern politician would would that a modern politician would would trade today if they could get back to trade today if they could get back to trade today if they could get back to that yes in fact I would have traded at that yes in fact I would have traded at that yes in fact I would have traded at the time I wrote op-ed pieces and made the time I wrote op-ed pieces and made the time I wrote op-ed pieces and made speeches against Iraq too it drove me speeches against Iraq too it drove me speeches against Iraq too it drove me out of the Republican Party you know I out of the Republican Party you know I out of the Republican Party you know I ended up supporting Obama in 2008 I ended up supporting Obama in 2008 I ended up supporting Obama in 2008 I would fact I was the National co-chair would fact I was the National co-chair would fact I was the National co-chair of its presidential campaign and the of its presidential campaign and the of its presidential campaign and the issue for me was how badly that whole issue for me was how badly that whole issue for me was how badly that whole Iraq two thing had been handled

Iraq two thing had been handled Iraq two thing had been handled including my buddy : powell going in including my buddy : powell going in including my buddy : powell going in front of the General Assembly front of the General Assembly front of the General Assembly and making outrageous claims claims and making outrageous claims claims and making outrageous claims claims today I thought I knew in fact at the today I thought I knew in fact at the today I thought I knew in fact at the time were wrong about Saddam Hussein's time were wrong about Saddam Hussein's time were wrong about Saddam Hussein's having weapons of mass destruction or having weapons of mass destruction or having weapons of mass destruction or the other lies that were told you know the other lies that were told you know the other lies that were told you know Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were good buddies baloney there wasn't any good buddies baloney there wasn't any good buddies baloney there wasn't any al-qaeda in Iraq as long as Saddam was al-qaeda in Iraq as long as Saddam was al-qaeda in Iraq as long as Saddam was famous I think they hated each other or famous I think they hated each other or famous I think they hated each other or that we would be welcomed as liberators that we would be welcomed as liberators that we would be welcomed as liberators you know people would throw bouquets of you know people would throw bouquets of you know people would throw bouquets of roses as our guys going into Baghdad roses as our guys going into Baghdad roses as our guys going into Baghdad meloni as it turned out so I said that meloni as it turned out so I said that meloni as it turned out so I said that it's a dime and and you know a trillion it's a dime and and you know a trillion it's a dime and and you know a trillion dollars later and thousands of lives dollars later and thousands of lives dollars later and thousands of lives later we're stuck with in Iraq that is later we're stuck with in Iraq that is later we're stuck with in Iraq that is much worse than what it was when Saddam much worse than what it was when Saddam much worse than what it was when Saddam Hussein was run of it so you know the Hussein was run of it so you know the Hussein was run of it so you know the real issue here is what are our purposes real issue here is what are our purposes real issue here is what are our purposes how do we define victory what how do we define victory what how do we define victory what limitations are we going to put on our limitations are we going to put on our limitations are we going to put on our use of violence to achieve these use of violence to achieve these use of violence to achieve these purposes these are very deep questions purposes these are very deep questions purposes these are very deep questions very hard questions to answer and and very hard questions to answer and and very hard questions to answer and and then frankly most most presidents need then frankly most most presidents need then frankly most most presidents need as much help as possible to get to these as much help as possible to get to these as much help as possible to get to these answers and they need help from you know answers and they need help from you know answers and they need help from you know wise and good military advisors which I wise and good military advisors which I wise and good military advisors which I don't think they they always get now you

don't think they they always get now you don't think they they always get now you know we were just you were just talking know we were just you were just talking know we were just you were just talking a second ago about Colin Powell a second ago about Colin Powell a second ago about Colin Powell respected military authority but using respected military authority but using respected military authority but using that authority as part of an effort to that authority as part of an effort to that authority as part of an effort to sell the American people and the world sell the American people and the world sell the American people and the world on on a particular foreign policy move on on a particular foreign policy move on on a particular foreign policy move and it occurs to me you know one of the and it occurs to me you know one of the and it occurs to me you know one of the things that that watching the Ken Burns things that that watching the Ken Burns things that that watching the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary really brings home Vietnam documentary really brings home Vietnam documentary really brings home is the context of what a different is the context of what a different is the context of what a different America it was back in the days when America it was back in the days when America it was back in the days when Vietnam was first heating up the early Vietnam was first heating up the early Vietnam was first heating up the early 1960s I was born during the yah Drang 1960s I was born during the yah Drang 1960s I was born during the yah Drang battle I mean it's so 1965 when things battle I mean it's so 1965 when things battle I mean it's so 1965 when things are really heating up with ground troops are really heating up with ground troops are really heating up with ground troops the government at that time was assumed the government at that time was assumed the government at that time was assumed to be telling the truth by just about to be telling the truth by just about to be telling the truth by just about everyone it was a black and white good everyone it was a black and white good everyone it was a black and white good and evil world and evil world and evil world the the the you know I always tell young people when you know I always tell young people when you know I always tell young people when I'm talking to them I always bring up I'm talking to them I always bring up I'm talking to them I always bring up the First World War and I talk about a the First World War and I talk about a the First World War and I talk about a generation of people that could watch generation of people that could watch generation of people that could watch the unit in front of them step out of the unit in front of them step out of the unit in front of them step out of the trenches and go over the top and be the trenches and go over the top and be the trenches and go over the top and be machine gun within ten yards of the machine gun within ten yards of the machine gun within ten yards of the trench and then the next wave will do trench and then the next wave will do trench and then the next wave will do the same thing and I said we wouldn't do the same thing and I said we wouldn't do the same thing and I said we wouldn't do that today in the same way that much of that today in the same way that much of that today in the same way that much of the stuff that a 1962 era American would the stuff that a 1962 era American would the stuff that a 1962 era American would have considered a truism would be met have considered a truism would be met have considered a truism would be met much more skeptically by a 21st century much more skeptically by a 21st century much more skeptically by a 21st century American how much did you know the so American how much did you know the so American how much did you know the so called credibility gap over several called credibility gap over several called credibility gap over several administration's in that era do you know administration's in that era do you know administration's in that era do you know lasting the boy who cried wolf type lasting the boy who cried wolf type lasting the boy who cried wolf type damage to our government's ability to be damage to our government's ability to be damage to our government's ability to be trusted with statements like how the war

trusted with statements like how the war trusted with statements like how the war is going or anything else was to be sort is going or anything else was to be sort is going or anything else was to be sort of letters did we lose our innocence I of letters did we lose our innocence I of letters did we lose our innocence I guess it's a classic phrase from my guess it's a classic phrase from my guess it's a classic phrase from my 1980s Vietnam War military history class 1980s Vietnam War military history class 1980s Vietnam War military history class yep well I think in particular the yep well I think in particular the yep well I think in particular the Pentagon Papers represented a sea change Pentagon Papers represented a sea change Pentagon Papers represented a sea change you know after they were published in you know after they were published in you know after they were published in the New York Times and later in the the New York Times and later in the the New York Times and later in the Washington Post Americans came to understand that a Americans came to understand that a succession of administration's both succession of administration's both succession of administration's both Democrat and Republican had Democrat and Republican had Democrat and Republican had systematically lied to the American systematically lied to the American systematically lied to the American people and I don't think that was that people and I don't think that was that people and I don't think that was that our country has ever been the same again our country has ever been the same again our country has ever been the same again the skepticism which that whole episode the skepticism which that whole episode the skepticism which that whole episode properly aroused has been with us ever properly aroused has been with us ever properly aroused has been with us ever since and I know frankly it is a loss of since and I know frankly it is a loss of since and I know frankly it is a loss of innocence for us and if you look at you innocence for us and if you look at you innocence for us and if you look at you know our history we were never a great know our history we were never a great know our history we were never a great power until after World War one so our power until after World War one so our power until after World War one so our our experience on the world stage was our experience on the world stage was our experience on the world stage was pretty limited pretty limited pretty limited you know maybe fifty years of experience you know maybe fifty years of experience you know maybe fifty years of experience as a real actor in international affairs as a real actor in international affairs as a real actor in international affairs and then finally we've woke up a bit we and then finally we've woke up a bit we and then finally we've woke up a bit we saw how that saw how that saw how that or if they haven't it's not that

or if they haven't it's not that or if they haven't it's not that government that weren't cynical before I government that weren't cynical before I government that weren't cynical before I think the Brits were the British think the Brits were the British think the Brits were the British government has been cynical you know for government has been cynical you know for government has been cynical you know for a long time but Americans were truly a long time but Americans were truly a long time but Americans were truly children of the frontier you know with children of the frontier you know with children of the frontier you know with the thing with a sort of o western the thing with a sort of o western the thing with a sort of o western heritage frontier heritage and we wanted heritage frontier heritage and we wanted heritage frontier heritage and we wanted to believe that our government was to believe that our government was to believe that our government was telling us the truth telling us the truth telling us the truth but we learned in the Pentagon Papers but we learned in the Pentagon Papers but we learned in the Pentagon Papers that that's not so and ever since we've that that's not so and ever since we've that that's not so and ever since we've been I think properly skeptical why do been I think properly skeptical why do been I think properly skeptical why do you think a question is why do you think you think a question is why do you think you think a question is why do you think they lied I mean you know I think the they lied I mean you know I think the they lied I mean you know I think the tendency would be to blame some tendency would be to blame some tendency would be to blame some president from the opposite political president from the opposite political president from the opposite political party and and demonize them but as you party and and demonize them but as you party and and demonize them but as you said this was a multi administration said this was a multi administration said this was a multi administration effort to keep from the people who are effort to keep from the people who are effort to keep from the people who are supposed to understand what's going on supposed to understand what's going on supposed to understand what's going on so they can be informed voters from so they can be informed voters from so they can be informed voters from really knowing what's going on and it really knowing what's going on and it really knowing what's going on and it started with you know Eisenhower even started with you know Eisenhower even started with you know Eisenhower even but even to the end with Nixon and but even to the end with Nixon and but even to the end with Nixon and Christmas bombings that were secret I Christmas bombings that were secret I Christmas bombings that were secret I mean what was I guess was it kept secret mean what was I guess was it kept secret mean what was I guess was it kept secret in your mind for for military reasons or in your mind for for military reasons or in your mind for for military reasons or was it kept secret because the reaction was it kept secret because the reaction was it kept secret because the reaction of the American people to their own of the American people to their own of the American people to their own policies was what the government was policies was what the government was policies was what the government was worried about I think it was the latter worried about I think it was the latter worried about I think it was the latter really the government didn't the really the government didn't the really the government didn't the president didn't want to be embarrassed

president didn't want to be embarrassed president didn't want to be embarrassed embarrassment is the worst possible embarrassment is the worst possible embarrassment is the worst possible right situation for a public figure and right situation for a public figure and right situation for a public figure and so the bombing of Cambodia for instance so the bombing of Cambodia for instance so the bombing of Cambodia for instance was secret from the American people it was secret from the American people it was secret from the American people it sure as hell wasn't secret from the sure as hell wasn't secret from the sure as hell wasn't secret from the Cambodians here you know or the North Cambodians here you know or the North Cambodians here you know or the North Vietnamese army which was using Cambodia Vietnamese army which was using Cambodia Vietnamese army which was using Cambodia for sanctuary they knew all about it for sanctuary they knew all about it for sanctuary they knew all about it so it's secrecy there wasn't a military so it's secrecy there wasn't a military so it's secrecy there wasn't a military necessity at all the enemy quite necessity at all the enemy quite necessity at all the enemy quite understood what was going on the the the understood what was going on the the the understood what was going on the the the secrecy was required to keep the secrecy was required to keep the secrecy was required to keep the American people in the dark and the only American people in the dark and the only American people in the dark and the only you know the only reason you know the only reason you know the only reason the government would have been the government would have been the government would have been embarrassed to admit what was going on embarrassed to admit what was going on embarrassed to admit what was going on that's the worst possible reason to that's the worst possible reason to that's the worst possible reason to classify a any information is to protect classify a any information is to protect classify a any information is to protect to protect yourself from embarrassment to protect yourself from embarrassment to protect yourself from embarrassment but that's exactly what was going on but that's exactly what was going on but that's exactly what was going on do you think that the efforts of the do you think that the efforts of the do you think that the efforts of the media today are I want to compare them media today are I want to compare them media today are I want to compare them to the the media efforts in Vietnam to the the media efforts in Vietnam to the the media efforts in Vietnam which were you know so scrutinized and which were you know so scrutinized and which were you know so scrutinized and yet perhaps so influential on what went yet perhaps so influential on what went yet perhaps so influential on what went on and I just I'm not even sure we're on and I just I'm not even sure we're on and I just I'm not even sure we're talking apples and oranges here in the talking apples and oranges here in the talking apples and oranges here in the ability to compare them but how would ability to compare them but how would ability to compare them but how would you compare today's media coverage of you compare today's media coverage of you compare today's media coverage of America's conflicts and that for example America's conflicts and that for example America's conflicts and that for example take 1967-68 because it was very take 1967-68 because it was very take 1967-68 because it was very different in 62 but how would you how different in 62 but how would you how different in 62 but how would you how would you compare the media's job how would you compare the media's job how would you compare the media's job how they cover with the restrictions by the they cover with the restrictions by the they cover with the restrictions by the way that we understand I mean they don't

way that we understand I mean they don't way that we understand I mean they don't have the same kind of ability to show have the same kind of ability to show have the same kind of ability to show this I mean the combat footage that it this I mean the combat footage that it this I mean the combat footage that it not to change the subject but but the not to change the subject but but the not to change the subject but but the thing that rocked me in Ken Burns is thing that rocked me in Ken Burns is thing that rocked me in Ken Burns is documentary the most and I have no idea documentary the most and I have no idea documentary the most and I have no idea how he did it is there's segments where how he did it is there's segments where how he did it is there's segments where you'll see 35 seconds in a row of you'll see 35 seconds in a row of you'll see 35 seconds in a row of footage that looks like it was shot footage that looks like it was shot footage that looks like it was shot yesterday yesterday yesterday High Definition stuff and you know for High Definition stuff and you know for High Definition stuff and you know for people like me who've seen a lot of that people like me who've seen a lot of that people like me who've seen a lot of that footage I couldn't figure out if it's footage I couldn't figure out if it's footage I couldn't figure out if it's computer enhanced or what but but when computer enhanced or what but but when computer enhanced or what but but when you're looking at what the media is able you're looking at what the media is able you're looking at what the media is able to show back then and the difference in to show back then and the difference in to show back then and the difference in the coverage today can you compare in the coverage today can you compare in the coverage today can you compare in your mind's eye the pros and cons of the your mind's eye the pros and cons of the your mind's eye the pros and cons of the way we did it then and how we do it now the media coverage in Vietnam was by and the media coverage in Vietnam was by and large positive in my opinion except for large positive in my opinion except for large positive in my opinion except for photo coverage you know the impact of a photo coverage you know the impact of a photo coverage you know the impact of a photograph or today video is so much photograph or today video is so much photograph or today video is so much more pervasive or influential or more pervasive or influential or more pervasive or influential or shocking you know you had a photograph shocking you know you had a photograph shocking you know you had a photograph of a police general in Saigon shooting a of a police general in Saigon shooting a of a police general in Saigon shooting a guy in the head or a very young girl guy in the head or a very young girl guy in the head or a very young girl running away from the village it's been running away from the village it's been running away from the village it's been a bomb with her skin on fire a bomb with her skin on fire a bomb with her skin on fire these pictures are convey a message in a these pictures are convey a message in a these pictures are convey a message in a way that written journalism or broadcast

way that written journalism or broadcast way that written journalism or broadcast journalism cannot and and they were very journalism cannot and and they were very journalism cannot and and they were very negative negative negative I mean Buddhist monks burnt it you know I mean Buddhist monks burnt it you know I mean Buddhist monks burnt it you know emulating themselves in the streets of emulating themselves in the streets of emulating themselves in the streets of Saigon when you show that you show it on Saigon when you show that you show it on Saigon when you show that you show it on television television television it just is merciless in the end the it just is merciless in the end the it just is merciless in the end the message if debase and so for my money message if debase and so for my money message if debase and so for my money until Walter Cronkite came on CBS News until Walter Cronkite came on CBS News until Walter Cronkite came on CBS News and said hey we're not winning guys and said hey we're not winning guys and said hey we're not winning guys after 10:00 after 10:00 after 10:00 the the coverage was pretty universally the the coverage was pretty universally the the coverage was pretty universally supportive the written coverage but the supportive the written coverage but the supportive the written coverage but the photographic coverage underlie just photographic coverage underlie just photographic coverage underlie just underst undermined everything that was underst undermined everything that was underst undermined everything that was being said in print now today if the being said in print now today if the being said in print now today if the coverage is much more visual much more coverage is much more visual much more coverage is much more visual much more video oriented and photo oriented and so video oriented and photo oriented and so video oriented and photo oriented and so the bad news hits earlier I think the bad news hits earlier I think the bad news hits earlier I think because quoted for you know you don't because quoted for you know you don't because quoted for you know you don't see a photograph of of ribbon cutting so see a photograph of of ribbon cutting so see a photograph of of ribbon cutting so as downtown Baghdad is liberated as downtown Baghdad is liberated as downtown Baghdad is liberated you see these awful scenes of devastated you see these awful scenes of devastated you see these awful scenes of devastated towns that we're creating in the Middle towns that we're creating in the Middle towns that we're creating in the Middle East there's no getting around a word East there's no getting around a word East there's no getting around a word were we're no large-scale destructive were we're no large-scale destructive were we're no large-scale destructive mode there in the Middle East and that's mode there in the Middle East and that's mode there in the Middle East and that's what people are seeing they're not what people are seeing they're not what people are seeing they're not seeing any upside you know you can talk

seeing any upside you know you can talk seeing any upside you know you can talk about upside all you want and how well about upside all you want and how well about upside all you want and how well we're doing and so forth but what we are we're doing and so forth but what we are we're doing and so forth but what we are seeing is awful the consequences of the seeing is awful the consequences of the seeing is awful the consequences of the combat there and so I think the the combat there and so I think the the combat there and so I think the the coverage today is much more pessimistic coverage today is much more pessimistic coverage today is much more pessimistic and down and you're skeptical and even and down and you're skeptical and even and down and you're skeptical and even perhaps cynical but because they are perhaps cynical but because they are perhaps cynical but because they are showing not just telling and from now on showing not just telling and from now on showing not just telling and from now on I expect that's a way that coverage will I expect that's a way that coverage will I expect that's a way that coverage will be because this general you know younger be because this general you know younger be because this general you know younger Jen Jen Jen raishin is much more video aureus and raishin is much more video aureus and raishin is much more video aureus and and won't read the New York Times watch and won't read the New York Times watch and won't read the New York Times watch it on you know on Facebook yeah and once it on you know on Facebook yeah and once it on you know on Facebook yeah and once upon a time it used to be Radio Free upon a time it used to be Radio Free upon a time it used to be Radio Free Europe trying to boot get a little teeny Europe trying to boot get a little teeny Europe trying to boot get a little teeny signal you know over the the Iron signal you know over the the Iron signal you know over the the Iron Curtain now that if we were fighting the Curtain now that if we were fighting the Curtain now that if we were fighting the North Vietnamese army they would have a North Vietnamese army they would have a North Vietnamese army they would have a troll of people on Twitter you know troll of people on Twitter you know troll of people on Twitter you know giving their side of the story or giving their side of the story or giving their side of the story or pretending to be Americans complete with pretending to be Americans complete with pretending to be Americans complete with photographs and maybe fake photographs photographs and maybe fake photographs photographs and maybe fake photographs yes well then let me ask you a little yes well then let me ask you a little yes well then let me ask you a little bit of and not really changing subjects bit of and not really changing subjects bit of and not really changing subjects but I can't have a four-star general on but I can't have a four-star general on but I can't have a four-star general on here without mining you a little bit for here without mining you a little bit for here without mining you a little bit for some knowledge and wisdom myself I'm some knowledge and wisdom myself I'm some knowledge and wisdom myself I'm looking at Syria and I'm looking you had looking at Syria and I'm looking you had looking at Syria and I'm looking you had talked about you know in destructive talked about you know in destructive talked about you know in destructive mode right now but to an armchair person mode right now but to an armchair person mode right now but to an armchair person like me it looks like a terribly small like me it looks like a terribly small like me it looks like a terribly small theater to have that many different theater to have that many different theater to have that many different forces operating in and us hoping to

forces operating in and us hoping to forces operating in and us hoping to keep everything clean with no major keep everything clean with no major keep everything clean with no major mistakes and whatnot you had talked mistakes and whatnot you had talked mistakes and whatnot you had talked about North Korea as well can you talk about North Korea as well can you talk about North Korea as well can you talk to me a little about those two hot spots to me a little about those two hot spots to me a little about those two hot spots and if there's a third one you would add and if there's a third one you would add and if there's a third one you would add to the mix of places we need to be to the mix of places we need to be to the mix of places we need to be careful right now well I think Korea's careful right now well I think Korea's careful right now well I think Korea's the most important and threatening the most important and threatening the most important and threatening problem that we face anywhere in the problem that we face anywhere in the problem that we face anywhere in the world worried or have faced for a long world worried or have faced for a long world worried or have faced for a long time I really think we're up against a time I really think we're up against a time I really think we're up against a sort of a Cuban Missile Crisis so it's sort of a Cuban Missile Crisis so it's sort of a Cuban Missile Crisis so it's been that long you know since we've been that long you know since we've been that long you know since we've really been looked down the barrel gun really been looked down the barrel gun really been looked down the barrel gun barrels as far as Syria goes it is an barrels as far as Syria goes it is an barrels as far as Syria goes it is an awfully small theater of operations awfully small theater of operations awfully small theater of operations especially on the air side we're talking especially on the air side we're talking especially on the air side we're talking about aircraft like the f-22 that that's about aircraft like the f-22 that that's about aircraft like the f-22 that that's supercruise in other words they're supercruise in other words they're supercruise in other words they're supersonic they're running around the supersonic they're running around the supersonic they're running around the sky at 1.7 1.8 Mach all the time and sky at 1.7 1.8 Mach all the time and sky at 1.7 1.8 Mach all the time and that makes Syria pretty small countries that makes Syria pretty small countries that makes Syria pretty small countries even even even do a 180 do a 180 degree turn in no and do a 180 do a 180 degree turn in no and do a 180 do a 180 degree turn in no and the Russians are there sharing that the Russians are there sharing that the Russians are there sharing that airspace with us now we've so far been airspace with us now we've so far been airspace with us now we've so far been able to coordinate that air activity able to coordinate that air activity able to coordinate that air activity pretty well even though the Russians did pretty well even though the Russians did pretty well even though the Russians did lose a fighter to a circus to a Turkish lose a fighter to a circus to a Turkish lose a fighter to a circus to a Turkish ground fire so but the less you know ground fire so but the less you know ground fire so but the less you know we're running the head-to-head against we're running the head-to-head against we're running the head-to-head against each other in a very small airspace and

each other in a very small airspace and each other in a very small airspace and it's a tribute to the professionalism of it's a tribute to the professionalism of it's a tribute to the professionalism of our Air Force that we haven't already our Air Force that we haven't already our Air Force that we haven't already shot down a few of those guys but that's shot down a few of those guys but that's shot down a few of those guys but that's a that's terribly dangerous we could be a that's terribly dangerous we could be a that's terribly dangerous we could be any day involved in a head-to-head fight any day involved in a head-to-head fight any day involved in a head-to-head fight with Russian aircraft and we're that you with Russian aircraft and we're that you with Russian aircraft and we're that you know that that's got the potential to go know that that's got the potential to go know that that's got the potential to go to escalate to go anywhere so it's to escalate to go anywhere so it's to escalate to go anywhere so it's dangerous in my opinion it's less dangerous in my opinion it's less dangerous in my opinion it's less dangerous than the situation in North dangerous than the situation in North dangerous than the situation in North Korea where we have apparently a crazy Korea where we have apparently a crazy Korea where we have apparently a crazy guy in charge of a government that is guy in charge of a government that is guy in charge of a government that is that does possess nuclear weapons and is that does possess nuclear weapons and is that does possess nuclear weapons and is rapidly developing the capability if it rapidly developing the capability if it rapidly developing the capability if it doesn't already have them to deliver doesn't already have them to deliver doesn't already have them to deliver those nuclear weapons against American those nuclear weapons against American those nuclear weapons against American cities I think that's an awful situation cities I think that's an awful situation cities I think that's an awful situation I think we can't allow that to continue I think we can't allow that to continue I think we can't allow that to continue I believe we must intervene and do I believe we must intervene and do I believe we must intervene and do something there now what should we do something there now what should we do something there now what should we do well I'm in favor of using all the tools well I'm in favor of using all the tools well I'm in favor of using all the tools you know in the in the toolbox if you you know in the in the toolbox if you you know in the in the toolbox if you think diplomacy will work by all means think diplomacy will work by all means think diplomacy will work by all means let's do it if you think we can you know let's do it if you think we can you know let's do it if you think we can you know economic sanctions will work let's economic sanctions will work let's economic sanctions will work let's impose them if you think the Chinese can impose them if you think the Chinese can impose them if you think the Chinese can help us or the Russians can help us by help us or the Russians can help us by help us or the Russians can help us by all means let's involve them at the end all means let's involve them at the end all means let's involve them at the end of the day I think we've tried just of the day I think we've tried just of the day I think we've tried just about everything dear nothing has worked

about everything dear nothing has worked about everything dear nothing has worked so far because what we have to do is so far because what we have to do is so far because what we have to do is dismantle this nuclear capability we dismantle this nuclear capability we dismantle this nuclear capability we can't allow in my opinion North Korea to can't allow in my opinion North Korea to can't allow in my opinion North Korea to continue to develop nuclear I mean you continue to develop nuclear I mean you continue to develop nuclear I mean you know threats against American American know threats against American American know threats against American American homeland property and citizens and homeland property and citizens and homeland property and citizens and institutions and so forth institutions and so forth institutions and so forth that has to be dismantled and I believe that has to be dismantled and I believe that has to be dismantled and I believe it has to be dismantled relatively it has to be dismantled relatively it has to be dismantled relatively quickly quickly quickly we don't have forever to deal with this we don't have forever to deal with this we don't have forever to deal with this problem or it will get to a point where problem or it will get to a point where problem or it will get to a point where we can't deal with it now I think we we can't deal with it now I think we we can't deal with it now I think we should deal with it with conventional should deal with it with conventional should deal with it with conventional weapons and I'd rather than use nuclear weapons and I'd rather than use nuclear weapons and I'd rather than use nuclear weapons against North Korea and I think weapons against North Korea and I think weapons against North Korea and I think we still have the capability to do that we still have the capability to do that we still have the capability to do that - just to help you know them dismantle - just to help you know them dismantle - just to help you know them dismantle this capability well we need to get with this capability well we need to get with this capability well we need to get with it pretty soon because you know time's it pretty soon because you know time's it pretty soon because you know time's running out on us here what if that you running out on us here what if that you running out on us here what if that you to go back to some of the constraints to go back to some of the constraints to go back to some of the constraints maybe that a guy like Johnson was maybe that a guy like Johnson was maybe that a guy like Johnson was operating under what if the Chinese or operating under what if the Chinese or operating under what if the Chinese or Putin's government tell us no don't do Putin's government tell us no don't do Putin's government tell us no don't do that well I don't think well we'd know that well I don't think well we'd know that well I don't think well we'd know that already first of all but remember that already first of all but remember that already first of all but remember the North Korean nuclear capability is a the North Korean nuclear capability is a the North Korean nuclear capability is a bigger threat to Beijing a bigger threat bigger threat to Beijing a bigger threat bigger threat to Beijing a bigger threat the flat of a stock and it is to the flat of a stock and it is to the flat of a stock and it is to Honolulu or Chicago so there's every Honolulu or Chicago so there's every Honolulu or Chicago so there's every reason believe that they would wish to

reason believe that they would wish to reason believe that they would wish to cooperate with us if not then so be it cooperate with us if not then so be it cooperate with us if not then so be it you know we we have the means to deter you know we we have the means to deter you know we we have the means to deter China and Russia we've shown that China and Russia we've shown that China and Russia we've shown that already well the questions we don't I already well the questions we don't I already well the questions we don't I think know for sure or with a great think know for sure or with a great think know for sure or with a great enough probability that we can deter enough probability that we can deter enough probability that we can deter North Korea I mean I've heard it argued North Korea I mean I've heard it argued North Korea I mean I've heard it argued that this guy Kim jong-un is a rational that this guy Kim jong-un is a rational that this guy Kim jong-un is a rational person all he wants to do his whole person all he wants to do his whole person all he wants to do his whole power therefore he has something to lose power therefore he has something to lose power therefore he has something to lose therefore he's datura bow and I think therefore he's datura bow and I think therefore he's datura bow and I think that's probably right my question is that's probably right my question is that's probably right my question is what if it's wrong what are the odds what if it's wrong what are the odds what if it's wrong what are the odds that he's not be turrible say there say that he's not be turrible say there say that he's not be turrible say there say it's only 10% so do we want to make it a it's only 10% so do we want to make it a it's only 10% so do we want to make it a bet again we want a bet Chicago or New bet again we want a bet Chicago or New bet again we want a bet Chicago or New York City that he's datura bawendi odds York City that he's datura bawendi odds York City that he's datura bawendi odds are 10% say that he's not the terrible are 10% say that he's not the terrible are 10% say that he's not the terrible I don't think we want to take that bet I don't think we want to take that bet I don't think we want to take that bet and by the way in the overview ought to and by the way in the overview ought to and by the way in the overview ought to be here about nuclear proliferation be here about nuclear proliferation be here about nuclear proliferation where are we going to draw the line is where are we going to draw the line is where are we going to draw the line is it okay for Nigeria or Honduras or bailey's to have nuclear weapons what is bailey's to have nuclear weapons what is the what is the point of which we're the what is the point of which we're the what is the point of which we're going to put our foot down say no we've

going to put our foot down say no we've going to put our foot down say no we've gone far enough you know it's it's gone far enough you know it's it's gone far enough you know it's it's enough that ten or so countries that are enough that ten or so countries that are enough that ten or so countries that are acting responsibly so far have nuclear acting responsibly so far have nuclear acting responsibly so far have nuclear weapons but that's enough the world is weapons but that's enough the world is weapons but that's enough the world is dangerous enough dangerous enough dangerous enough you know without Estonia having a full you know without Estonia having a full you know without Estonia having a full up nuclear delivery capability so but in up nuclear delivery capability so but in up nuclear delivery capability so but in any case we now have a case which I any case we now have a case which I any case we now have a case which I think is as clear as can't be that says think is as clear as can't be that says think is as clear as can't be that says we we need to stop this process here if we we need to stop this process here if we we need to stop this process here if America possesses Armed Forces for any America possesses Armed Forces for any America possesses Armed Forces for any reason it is to protect the property in reason it is to protect the property in reason it is to protect the property in the institutions and the lives of the institutions and the lives of the institutions and the lives of Americans against threats like North Americans against threats like North Americans against threats like North Korea a nuclear-armed North Korea I Korea a nuclear-armed North Korea I Korea a nuclear-armed North Korea I believe we ought to draw the line and we believe we ought to draw the line and we believe we ought to draw the line and we ought to give a deadline you know spy-1 ought to give a deadline you know spy-1 ought to give a deadline you know spy-1 January next year either the nuke the January next year either the nuke the January next year either the nuke the North Koreans are dismantling this North Koreans are dismantling this North Koreans are dismantling this capability under international capability under international capability under international inspection or we will help dismantle it inspection or we will help dismantle it inspection or we will help dismantle it you know it's funny you jumped the gun you know it's funny you jumped the gun you know it's funny you jumped the gun and went right to my next question which and went right to my next question which and went right to my next question which was about nuclear non-proliferation was about nuclear non-proliferation was about nuclear non-proliferation because I wanted to ask you is it because I wanted to ask you is it because I wanted to ask you is it specifically a North Korean problem or specifically a North Korean problem or specifically a North Korean problem or is it it is you mentioned Belize right is it it is you mentioned Belize right is it it is you mentioned Belize right okay is it a Belize problem so here's my okay is it a Belize problem so here's my okay is it a Belize problem so here's my question though this reminds me a little question though this reminds me a little question though this reminds me a little of like certain naval treaties between of like certain naval treaties between of like certain naval treaties between the two world wars where we're telling

the two world wars where we're telling the two world wars where we're telling certain powers listen this is 70 plus certain powers listen this is 70 plus certain powers listen this is 70 plus year old technology the basis for year old technology the basis for year old technology the basis for nuclear weapons right and and when nuclear weapons right and and when nuclear weapons right and and when you're telling other countries that they you're telling other countries that they you're telling other countries that they can never develop that capability isn't can never develop that capability isn't can never develop that capability isn't that the equivalent that the equivalent that the equivalent of locking them into second power status of locking them into second power status of locking them into second power status permanently in the way that the PIGE a potential ships I mean is that it's it potential ships I mean is that it's it seems to me the farther we get away from seems to me the farther we get away from seems to me the farther we get away from from when that technology was invented from when that technology was invented from when that technology was invented the weirder it gets to tell people the weirder it gets to tell people the weirder it gets to tell people listen you can have anything but listen you can have anything but listen you can have anything but something that was invented darn near a something that was invented darn near a something that was invented darn near a hundred years ago is that say should the hundred years ago is that say should the hundred years ago is that say should the foreign policy of the country be that no foreign policy of the country be that no foreign policy of the country be that no nuclear powers that aren't currently nuclear powers that aren't currently nuclear powers that aren't currently nuclear powers should be allowed to nuclear powers should be allowed to nuclear powers should be allowed to become nuclear powers no the foreign become nuclear powers no the foreign become nuclear powers no the foreign policy of this committee a world without policy of this committee a world without policy of this committee a world without nuclear weapons we would be much safer I nuclear weapons we would be much safer I nuclear weapons we would be much safer I mean our superiority and conventional mean our superiority and conventional mean our superiority and conventional warfare is so pronounced that if nuclear warfare is so pronounced that if nuclear warfare is so pronounced that if nuclear weapons disappeared everywhere in the weapons disappeared everywhere in the weapons disappeared everywhere in the world it would improve the safety and world it would improve the safety and world it would improve the safety and security of the American people security of the American people security of the American people enormous Lee so our policy ought to be enormous Lee so our policy ought to be enormous Lee so our policy ought to be zero nuclear weapons for anybody now how zero nuclear weapons for anybody now how zero nuclear weapons for anybody now how do we get there I have no idea because do we get there I have no idea because do we get there I have no idea because country like say Israel which commonly country like say Israel which commonly country like say Israel which commonly is understood to possess an inventory of is understood to possess an inventory of is understood to possess an inventory of nuclear weapons it's not going to

nuclear weapons it's not going to nuclear weapons it's not going to renounce them given its security renounce them given its security renounce them given its security situation you know into the geography situation you know into the geography situation you know into the geography that it lives so I don't know of a that it lives so I don't know of a that it lives so I don't know of a practical way to get to zero I think it practical way to get to zero I think it practical way to get to zero I think it ought to be our objective and I think we ought to be our objective and I think we ought to be our objective and I think we ought to work on it and try to get there ought to work on it and try to get there ought to work on it and try to get there and eventually hopefully we can get and eventually hopefully we can get and eventually hopefully we can get there but that ought to be our policy there but that ought to be our policy there but that ought to be our policy objective and in the meantime we ought objective and in the meantime we ought objective and in the meantime we ought to say yes nobody else can doesn't have to say yes nobody else can doesn't have to say yes nobody else can doesn't have them now is going to get them and it's them now is going to get them and it's them now is going to get them and it's going to reduce them to second-class going to reduce them to second-class going to reduce them to second-class status and that's too bad going to have status and that's too bad going to have status and that's too bad going to have to live with it but but you know the to live with it but but you know the to live with it but but you know the world is increasingly dangerous the more world is increasingly dangerous the more world is increasingly dangerous the more people get that capability and so it people get that capability and so it people get that capability and so it does freeze people into a sort of a does freeze people into a sort of a does freeze people into a sort of a formulaic position like we try formulaic position like we try formulaic position like we try to do with capital ships at one time to do with capital ships at one time to do with capital ships at one time remember though we this is not the first remember though we this is not the first remember though we this is not the first time we've we big outlawed chemical time we've we big outlawed chemical time we've we big outlawed chemical munitions right sure munitions right sure munitions right sure worldwide hopefully and now and we ought worldwide hopefully and now and we ought worldwide hopefully and now and we ought to enforce that I mean so we can put to enforce that I mean so we can put to enforce that I mean so we can put certain limitations that we hope are certain limitations that we hope are certain limitations that we hope are universal on the condom munitions that universal on the condom munitions that universal on the condom munitions that are available for use in hostile are available for use in hostile are available for use in hostile engagements engagements engagements okay what about a conventional situation okay what about a conventional situation okay what about a conventional situation then of a change in power so you look at then of a change in power so you look at then of a change in power so you look at something like an Iran in their region something like an Iran in their region something like an Iran in their region all of us history not to know that that

all of us history not to know that that all of us history not to know that that traditionally Iran or Persia is one of traditionally Iran or Persia is one of traditionally Iran or Persia is one of the we'll call them the regional the we'll call them the regional the we'll call them the regional superpowers right and they wax and wane superpowers right and they wax and wane superpowers right and they wax and wane but sometimes they dominate the region but sometimes they dominate the region but sometimes they dominate the region it seems like the policy sometimes is it seems like the policy sometimes is it seems like the policy sometimes is we're not going to let anyone change the we're not going to let anyone change the we're not going to let anyone change the power relationships that are currently power relationships that are currently power relationships that are currently in place is that a viable it seems to me in place is that a viable it seems to me in place is that a viable it seems to me a hegemonic power sort of way of looking a hegemonic power sort of way of looking a hegemonic power sort of way of looking at it but is that a viable way to look at it but is that a viable way to look at it but is that a viable way to look at something like the Middle East and at something like the Middle East and at something like the Middle East and say no you're not going to expand your say no you're not going to expand your say no you're not going to expand your influence into Syria even if that's a influence into Syria even if that's a influence into Syria even if that's a traditional Persian area of expansion do traditional Persian area of expansion do traditional Persian area of expansion do you see where I'm going with this I mean you see where I'm going with this I mean you see where I'm going with this I mean how much can we will call it the United how much can we will call it the United how much can we will call it the United States as the tip of the spear but we States as the tip of the spear but we States as the tip of the spear but we all represent a bunch of major powers all represent a bunch of major powers all represent a bunch of major powers how much can we be the Congress of how much can we be the Congress of how much can we be the Congress of Vienna but constantly you know making Vienna but constantly you know making Vienna but constantly you know making sure that things stay stable we'll call sure that things stay stable we'll call sure that things stay stable we'll call them stable for lack of a better word so them stable for lack of a better word so them stable for lack of a better word so nuclear stability you're all for what nuclear stability you're all for what nuclear stability you're all for what about even like regional power shifting about even like regional power shifting about even like regional power shifting stability uh we are no doubt a status stability uh we are no doubt a status stability uh we are no doubt a status quo power because we're the top dog quo power because we're the top dog quo power because we're the top dog right so we don't want that to change right so we don't want that to change right so we don't want that to change and hopefully I hope it never changes I and hopefully I hope it never changes I and hopefully I hope it never changes I mean if this country lasts a thousand mean if this country lasts a thousand mean if this country lasts a thousand years and we all pray it will we we want years and we all pray it will we we want years and we all pray it will we we want to be at the top of the heap for that to be at the top of the heap for that to be at the top of the heap for that whole period of time however you can't whole period of time however you can't whole period of time however you can't stand up the beaches edge and and order stand up the beaches edge and and order stand up the beaches edge and and order the tide not to get your feet wet you the tide not to get your feet wet you the tide not to get your feet wet you know so change is inevitable and what we

know so change is inevitable and what we know so change is inevitable and what we have to do is to find constructive ways have to do is to find constructive ways have to do is to find constructive ways to allow change to occur that doesn't to allow change to occur that doesn't to allow change to occur that doesn't threat to our position and there's every threat to our position and there's every threat to our position and there's every reason by the way that we ought to be reason by the way that we ought to be reason by the way that we ought to be able to do that I mean certainly the able to do that I mean certainly the able to do that I mean certainly the technical change that we see in the last technical change that we see in the last technical change that we see in the last a couple of decades has been led by us a couple of decades has been led by us a couple of decades has been led by us we've created the instability on the you we've created the instability on the you we've created the instability on the you know technological front so it serves know technological front so it serves know technological front so it serves our purposes to be in the vanguard of our purposes to be in the vanguard of our purposes to be in the vanguard of change where it's positive we just have change where it's positive we just have change where it's positive we just have to figure out whence it positive went to to figure out whence it positive went to to figure out whence it positive went to negative now in the case of Iran he's negative now in the case of Iran he's negative now in the case of Iran he's been a long time since Darius the great been a long time since Darius the great been a long time since Darius the great so I don't know how much Persian so I don't know how much Persian so I don't know how much Persian influence as you know Syria recently has influence as you know Syria recently has influence as you know Syria recently has certainly been in Ottoman Empire was not certainly been in Ottoman Empire was not certainly been in Ottoman Empire was not Persia Persia Persia no Syria was a was a Ottoman province no Syria was a was a Ottoman province no Syria was a was a Ottoman province it was hacked up by scientific oyez yeah it was hacked up by scientific oyez yeah it was hacked up by scientific oyez yeah at the end of World War one and and by at the end of World War one and and by at the end of World War one and and by the way Lebanon was created separately I the way Lebanon was created separately I the way Lebanon was created separately I mean Syria considers Lebanon a Syrian mean Syria considers Lebanon a Syrian mean Syria considers Lebanon a Syrian province province province yeah the Christian French Enclave right yeah the Christian French Enclave right yeah the Christian French Enclave right [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] so the question you ask requires so the question you ask requires so the question you ask requires sophistication in the answering it sophistication in the answering it sophistication in the answering it required sophistication in the asking

required sophistication in the asking required sophistication in the asking but so so statesmen are judged by their but so so statesmen are judged by their but so so statesmen are judged by their ability to recognize what change is ability to recognize what change is ability to recognize what change is coming anyway and running around and coming anyway and running around and coming anyway and running around and getting in front of it right that's how getting in front of it right that's how getting in front of it right that's how we define statesmanship and cheap we define statesmanship and cheap we define statesmanship and cheap politicians are defined as people who politicians are defined as people who politicians are defined as people who don't understand don't understand don't understand don't understand don't understand don't understand precisely that problem precisely that problem precisely that problem I've sat here and and mind you for I've sat here and and mind you for I've sat here and and mind you for wisdom on current affairs and wisdom on wisdom on current affairs and wisdom on wisdom on current affairs and wisdom on the Vietnam War at no point did I ask the Vietnam War at no point did I ask the Vietnam War at no point did I ask you about the drama though of flying you about the drama though of flying you about the drama though of flying hundreds of missions into that situation hundreds of missions into that situation hundreds of missions into that situation and and what I would assume was a more and and what I would assume was a more and and what I would assume was a more tense situation as as anti air defenses tense situation as as anti air defenses tense situation as as anti air defenses got stronger and stronger got stronger and stronger got stronger and stronger this is the understated question of all this is the understated question of all this is the understated question of all time but can you describe to me just for time but can you describe to me just for time but can you describe to me just for a second what the heck I mean when you a second what the heck I mean when you a second what the heck I mean when you look back on it I did things that were look back on it I did things that were look back on it I did things that were nothing like what you did and I think nothing like what you did and I think nothing like what you did and I think God I was crazy and do you ever look God I was crazy and do you ever look God I was crazy and do you ever look back on that and just think to yourself back on that and just think to yourself back on that and just think to yourself was that a different person or is it was that a different person or is it was that a different person or is it like yesterday for you do you miss it like yesterday for you do you miss it like yesterday for you do you miss it yeah I miss it huh combat is yeah I miss it huh combat is yeah I miss it huh combat is invigorating I loved it invigorating I loved it invigorating I loved it partly because of hubris I mean I was partly because of hubris I mean I was partly because of hubris I mean I was arrogant still am probably I mean my arrogant still am probably I mean my arrogant still am probably I mean my friends my friends my saying I was friends my friends my saying I was friends my friends my saying I was arrogant but I when I get him strapped arrogant but I when I get him strapped arrogant but I when I get him strapped into an airplane I don't think anybody into an airplane I don't think anybody into an airplane I don't think anybody can beat me so I never was for me it was

can beat me so I never was for me it was can beat me so I never was for me it was the matter of bravery or courage to go the matter of bravery or courage to go the matter of bravery or courage to go out there because I I knew I was going out there because I I knew I was going out there because I I knew I was going to kick the crap out of the other guy to kick the crap out of the other guy to kick the crap out of the other guy rather than the reverse so for me combat rather than the reverse so for me combat rather than the reverse so for me combat I flew 285 combat sorties and I loved I flew 285 combat sorties and I loved I flew 285 combat sorties and I loved every every minute of it every every minute of it every every minute of it and I miss it I mean it's really really and I miss it I mean it's really really and I miss it I mean it's really really fun and it's hard to explain I mean I'm fun and it's hard to explain I mean I'm fun and it's hard to explain I mean I'm a professional warrior you know so a professional warrior you know so a professional warrior you know so that's that's what I was cut out to do that's that's what I was cut out to do that's that's what I was cut out to do and I enjoyed it a lot and I'm gonna and I enjoyed it a lot and I'm gonna and I enjoyed it a lot and I'm gonna recommend that people read your books to recommend that people read your books to recommend that people read your books to get a really a more detailed version of get a really a more detailed version of get a really a more detailed version of everything we were just talking about everything we were just talking about everything we were just talking about general did I did I ask everything you general did I did I ask everything you general did I did I ask everything you would like to talk about is there would like to talk about is there would like to talk about is there anything that you'd like to bring up anything that you'd like to bring up anything that you'd like to bring up that I left out no this has been a that I left out no this has been a that I left out no this has been a pretty wide-ranging conversation and pretty wide-ranging conversation and pretty wide-ranging conversation and more philosophical than and I am more philosophical than and I am more philosophical than and I am equipped to deal with you ask your equipped to deal with you ask your equipped to deal with you ask your questions are are too good I mean nobody questions are are too good I mean nobody questions are are too good I mean nobody had including your rottenness you spoke had including your rottenness you spoke had including your rottenness you spoke at the Peloponnesian wars at the Peloponnesian wars at the Peloponnesian wars nobody has answers to these questions nobody has answers to these questions nobody has answers to these questions and they're not it's not good to ask a and they're not it's not good to ask a and they're not it's not good to ask a professional military guy you've got a professional military guy you've got a professional military guy you've got a these are questions for the philosophy these are questions for the philosophy these are questions for the philosophy professor not for me but but certainly professor not for me but but certainly professor not for me but but certainly has been as wide-ranging as I could has been as wide-ranging as I could has been as wide-ranging as I could desire and and more so than I really any desire and and more so than I really any desire and and more so than I really any good at handling general you under

good at handling general you under good at handling general you under appreciate yourself i tailored those appreciate yourself i tailored those appreciate yourself i tailored those questions after watching you talk and i questions after watching you talk and i questions after watching you talk and i think you're absolutely and you know think you're absolutely and you know think you're absolutely and you know what's funny is when i met general what's funny is when i met general what's funny is when i met general mattis i thought that's how he thought mattis i thought that's how he thought mattis i thought that's how he thought too you're very well versed in too you're very well versed in too you're very well versed in wide-ranging yourself i appreciate it wide-ranging yourself i appreciate it wide-ranging yourself i appreciate it thanks very much i after talking to you thanks very much i after talking to you thanks very much i after talking to you buddy my thanks to general mcpeak for coming my thanks to general mcpeak for coming on the program and putting up with my on the program and putting up with my on the program and putting up with my traditionally unusual and long-winded traditionally unusual and long-winded traditionally unusual and long-winded questions his books are available questions his books are available questions his books are available everywhere we will link to some of them everywhere we will link to some of them everywhere we will link to some of them on our website his latest as i said his on our website his latest as i said his on our website his latest as i said his roles and missions cataloging his time roles and missions cataloging his time roles and missions cataloging his time as the 14th chief of staff of the air as the 14th chief of staff of the air as the 14th chief of staff of the air force force force he's a fascinating guy i think you can he's a fascinating guy i think you can he's a fascinating guy i think you can agree and i appreciate him coming on the agree and i appreciate him coming on the agree and i appreciate him coming on the program I am a true believer in the idea that I am a true believer in the idea that reading makes you a more formidable reading makes you a more formidable reading makes you a more formidable version of you and it's hard to read version of you and it's hard to read version of you and it's hard to read these days isn't it to find time to these days isn't it to find time to these days isn't it to find time to devote to simply looking at a page for devote to simply looking at a page for devote to simply looking at a page for hours it's wonderful I love it but it's hours it's wonderful I love it but it's hours it's wonderful I love it but it's hard to do isn't it in this busy world a hard to do isn't it in this busy world a hard to do isn't it in this busy world a lot of people like to combine things lot of people like to combine things lot of people like to combine things they have to do with things they'd like they have to do with things they'd like they have to do with things they'd like to do got a drive somewhere in traffic to do got a drive somewhere in traffic to do got a drive somewhere in traffic why not make yourself a more formidable why not make yourself a more formidable why not make yourself a more formidable version of you and enjoy a good book version of you and enjoy a good book version of you and enjoy a good book while you're doing it of course you got while you're doing it of course you got while you're doing it of course you got to keep your hands on the wheel you got to keep your hands on the wheel you got to keep your hands on the wheel you got to keep your eyes on the road so let's to keep your eyes on the road so let's to keep your eyes on the road so let's make it an audio book if you're gonna do make it an audio book if you're gonna do make it an audio book if you're gonna do that let's get it from audible the that let's get it from audible the that let's get it from audible the long-running sponsors of this program

long-running sponsors of this program long-running sponsors of this program who helped make it possible for you to who helped make it possible for you to who helped make it possible for you to educate yourself entertain yourself and educate yourself entertain yourself and educate yourself entertain yourself and read while you do something else it read while you do something else it read while you do something else it would be hard to find anyone who's made would be hard to find anyone who's made would be hard to find anyone who's made it easier figured out more angles and it easier figured out more angles and it easier figured out more angles and things that you would like as part of things that you would like as part of things that you would like as part of the process I mean you sign up for the process I mean you sign up for the process I mean you sign up for audible you get a free 30-day trial audible you get a free 30-day trial audible you get a free 30-day trial membership you'll get a free audiobook membership you'll get a free audiobook membership you'll get a free audiobook you sign up for good that they just keep you sign up for good that they just keep you sign up for good that they just keep coming and audibles figured out a way to coming and audibles figured out a way to coming and audibles figured out a way to do this better than anyone else I mean do this better than anyone else I mean do this better than anyone else I mean take for example their whisper sync for take for example their whisper sync for take for example their whisper sync for voice aspect to this whole thing we can voice aspect to this whole thing we can voice aspect to this whole thing we can switch back and forth between reading switch back and forth between reading switch back and forth between reading text and listening to the audiobook text and listening to the audiobook text and listening to the audiobook across a whole bunch of devices I mean across a whole bunch of devices I mean across a whole bunch of devices I mean you're reading on your Kindle and then you're reading on your Kindle and then you're reading on your Kindle and then you have to leave so you go into your you have to leave so you go into your you have to leave so you go into your car you listen in there you get out of car you listen in there you get out of car you listen in there you get out of your car your Amazon echo plays it right your car your Amazon echo plays it right your car your Amazon echo plays it right from where you left off that's pretty from where you left off that's pretty from where you left off that's pretty cool isn't it cool isn't it cool isn't it don't miss a word you can share a book don't miss a word you can share a book don't miss a word you can share a book from your library with anyone if it's from your library with anyone if it's from your library with anyone if it's their first time accepting a book and their first time accepting a book and their first time accepting a book and they can listen to it for free and you they can listen to it for free and you they can listen to it for free and you own your books this is key to me I don't own your books this is key to me I don't own your books this is key to me I don't want to buy something and then not own want to buy something and then not own want to buy something and then not own it with audible you own the books that it with audible you own the books that it with audible you own the books that you purchase through them now what book you purchase through them now what book you purchase through them now what book should you purchase well of course should you purchase well of course should you purchase well of course whatever you think is going to make a whatever you think is going to make a whatever you think is going to make a more formidable you but for me I am just more formidable you but for me I am just more formidable you but for me I am just addicted to reading the accounts of addicted to reading the accounts of addicted to reading the accounts of participants in things like the extremes participants in things like the extremes participants in things like the extremes of the human experience I mean take for of the human experience I mean take for of the human experience I mean take for example Tony McPhee who we just had on example Tony McPhee who we just had on example Tony McPhee who we just had on four-star general love that stuff but at four-star general love that stuff but at four-star general love that stuff but at Viet Nam's not your thing or you're more

Viet Nam's not your thing or you're more Viet Nam's not your thing or you're more of a land war person well how about war of a land war person well how about war of a land war person well how about war as I knew it by General George S Patton as I knew it by General George S Patton as I knew it by General George S Patton probably the most famous arguably the probably the most famous arguably the probably the most famous arguably the most famous Second World War u.s. most famous Second World War u.s. most famous Second World War u.s. general this book is a little different general this book is a little different general this book is a little different because it is his remembrances and stuff because it is his remembrances and stuff because it is his remembrances and stuff out of his diary but he died before the out of his diary but he died before the out of his diary but he died before the actual work that he was going to put actual work that he was going to put actual work that he was going to put together came out but it's about as together came out but it's about as together came out but it's about as close as you can get the narrator even close as you can get the narrator even close as you can get the narrator even sounds a little Patton ish I mean if you sounds a little Patton ish I mean if you sounds a little Patton ish I mean if you want the definitive account that exists want the definitive account that exists want the definitive account that exists from General George s Patton Zone you from General George s Patton Zone you from General George s Patton Zone you know written words go get war as I knew know written words go get war as I knew know written words go get war as I knew it if you're a military history person it if you're a military history person it if you're a military history person it should be on your bookshelf anyway if it should be on your bookshelf anyway if it should be on your bookshelf anyway if you are a person who does a lot of you are a person who does a lot of you are a person who does a lot of driving who can listen to books while driving who can listen to books while driving who can listen to books while they work well then maybe you need the they work well then maybe you need the they work well then maybe you need the audible version too or as I knew it by audible version too or as I knew it by audible version too or as I knew it by General George S Patton go pick that up General George S Patton go pick that up General George S Patton go pick that up inaudible and go to audible.com forward inaudible and go to audible.com forward inaudible and go to audible.com forward slash hardcore history and you know slash hardcore history and you know slash hardcore history and you know basically virtually digitally tell them basically virtually digitally tell them basically virtually digitally tell them I sent you you can also text all I sent you you can also text all I sent you you can also text all one-word hardcore history to 5 0 0 - 5 0 one-word hardcore history to 5 0 0 - 5 0 one-word hardcore history to 5 0 0 - 5 0 0 and get started with your free 0 and get started with your free 0 and get started with your free audiobook today the policy here is to let you hear the the policy here is to let you hear the shows and then decide for yourself what shows and then decide for yourself what shows and then decide for yourself what they're worth we sort of rely on the they're worth we sort of rely on the they're worth we sort of rely on the honor system as our business model and honor system as our business model and honor system as our business model and so far so good thanks for all your so far so good thanks for all your so far so good thanks for all your support support support it keeps the lights on around here go to it keeps the lights on around here go to it keeps the lights on around here go to Dan Karlin comm for information on how Dan Karlin comm for information on how Dan Karlin comm for information on how to donate to the show