EP17 Engineering Victory with Elon

So my apologies if today's show sounds a So my apologies if today's show sounds a little like you're joining a little like you're joining a little like you're joining a conversation that's already in progress. conversation that's already in progress. conversation that's already in progress. But this has happened with me before But this has happened with me before But this has happened with me before where I'll be talking with someone about where I'll be talking with someone about where I'll be talking with someone about something usually over a long period of something usually over a long period of something usually over a long period of time. time. time. Messaging back and forth or whatever it Messaging back and forth or whatever it Messaging back and forth or whatever it might be. might be. might be. And I'll think to myself usually a And I'll think to myself usually a And I'll think to myself usually a little too late in the game. Wow, you little too late in the game. Wow, you little too late in the game. Wow, you know, should have thought about making know, should have thought about making know, should have thought about making this a podcast. I mean more people than this a podcast. I mean more people than this a podcast. I mean more people than just yours truly might want to hear just yours truly might want to hear just yours truly might want to hear what's being said here. what's being said here. what's being said here. And that's how today's show got started. And that's how today's show got started. And that's how today's show got started. Just an ongoing discussion that at a Just an ongoing discussion that at a Just an ongoing discussion that at a certain point certain point certain point you look at it and you go, "Hmm, well, you look at it and you go, "Hmm, well, you look at it and you go, "Hmm, well, I should have started recording a long I should have started recording a long I should have started recording a long time ago, but uh so if it sounds like time ago, but uh so if it sounds like time ago, but uh so if it sounds like you're picking up the conversation in you're picking up the conversation in you're picking up the conversation in the middle of it, you might be. the middle of it, you might be. the middle of it, you might be. I've never been that good in the I've never been that good in the I've never been that good in the conversations or the interviews as you conversations or the interviews as you conversations or the interviews as you probably know if you've heard me. I've probably know if you've heard me. I've probably know if you've heard me. I've really like setting it up and starting really like setting it up and starting really like setting it up and starting at ground zero and building from a from at ground zero and building from a from at ground zero and building from a from a place of no knowledge and eventually a place of no knowledge and eventually a place of no knowledge and eventually getting somewhere in the conversation getting somewhere in the conversation getting somewhere in the conversation that's interesting. We just go right to that's interesting. We just go right to that's interesting. We just go right to the interesting and I hope we can all I the interesting and I hope we can all I the interesting and I hope we can all I hope it all makes sense without having hope it all makes sense without having hope it all makes sense without having all the background, but that's what all the background, but that's what all the background, but that's what today's program will be like. So I had a today's program will be like. So I had a today's program will be like. So I had a conversation that was ongoing about of conversation that was ongoing about of conversation that was ongoing about of all things all things all things um military aircraft.

um military aircraft. um military aircraft. Especially military aircraft in the Especially military aircraft in the Especially military aircraft in the Second World War. At times it got very Second World War. At times it got very Second World War. At times it got very specific, you know, the P-38 specific, you know, the P-38 specific, you know, the P-38 American fighter plane in the Second American fighter plane in the Second American fighter plane in the Second World War. World War. World War. Um but I was having a discussion with Um but I was having a discussion with Um but I was having a discussion with Elon Musk and um we were talking about Elon Musk and um we were talking about Elon Musk and um we were talking about uh the role of engineers in warfare. And uh the role of engineers in warfare. And uh the role of engineers in warfare. And that's a famous history, right? Go back that's a famous history, right? Go back that's a famous history, right? Go back to Archimedes supposedly killed by the to Archimedes supposedly killed by the to Archimedes supposedly killed by the Roman soldier when he's doodling in the Roman soldier when he's doodling in the Roman soldier when he's doodling in the sand and he didn't want to be sand and he didn't want to be sand and he didn't want to be interrupted and he made all those interrupted and he made all those interrupted and he made all those supposedly I think MythBusters well in supposedly I think MythBusters well in supposedly I think MythBusters well in their own way figured out that some of their own way figured out that some of their own way figured out that some of the stuff probably wouldn't work, but the stuff probably wouldn't work, but the stuff probably wouldn't work, but you know, they're not Archimedes either. you know, they're not Archimedes either. you know, they're not Archimedes either. Uh but you know, the history of warfare Uh but you know, the history of warfare Uh but you know, the history of warfare with these engineers creating weapons with these engineers creating weapons with these engineers creating weapons and of course in the modern world those and of course in the modern world those and of course in the modern world those people are people are people are monumentally more important than they monumentally more important than they monumentally more important than they were in primitive times, although were in primitive times, although were in primitive times, although somebody invented somebody invented somebody invented a bow and arrow someday. a bow and arrow someday. a bow and arrow someday. The early military engineers. The early military engineers. The early military engineers. Um but Mr. Musk and I were talking about Um but Mr. Musk and I were talking about Um but Mr. Musk and I were talking about this and at a certain point I thought, this and at a certain point I thought, this and at a certain point I thought, "Okay, this is a pretty good thing to "Okay, this is a pretty good thing to "Okay, this is a pretty good thing to just have a podcast about." Now my worry just have a podcast about." Now my worry just have a podcast about." Now my worry was that we were going to get into the was that we were going to get into the was that we were going to get into the minutia of like turbo supercharged minutia of like turbo supercharged minutia of like turbo supercharged engines engines engines and the performance of different and the performance of different and the performance of different aircraft at different altitudes based on aircraft at different altitudes based on aircraft at different altitudes based on the octane rating in the fuel.

the octane rating in the fuel. the octane rating in the fuel. And I'm not saying we didn't do any of And I'm not saying we didn't do any of And I'm not saying we didn't do any of that. I'm just saying it turned out to that. I'm just saying it turned out to that. I'm just saying it turned out to be more interesting than I thought it be more interesting than I thought it be more interesting than I thought it was going to be when we did get there. was going to be when we did get there. was going to be when we did get there. I want to I want to I want to issue a little disclaimer at the outset. issue a little disclaimer at the outset. issue a little disclaimer at the outset. I am the worst person in the world to I am the worst person in the world to I am the worst person in the world to talk to about engineering if there's any talk to about engineering if there's any talk to about engineering if there's any sort of engineering knowledge required sort of engineering knowledge required sort of engineering knowledge required in the conversation on my end. I'm a guy in the conversation on my end. I'm a guy in the conversation on my end. I'm a guy that can't that can't that can't you know, hammer a nail and do a board. you know, hammer a nail and do a board. you know, hammer a nail and do a board. So I'm an idiot. So um if I don't look So I'm an idiot. So um if I don't look So I'm an idiot. So um if I don't look like I know what I'm doing here, well, like I know what I'm doing here, well, like I know what I'm doing here, well, you know, not only that, but if you you know, not only that, but if you you know, not only that, but if you wanted to say which of the three wanted to say which of the three wanted to say which of the three branches of service in the 20th century branches of service in the 20th century branches of service in the 20th century military, you know, land, sea and air military, you know, land, sea and air military, you know, land, sea and air that I was least confident that I was least confident that I was least confident uh that I wouldn't look like an idiot uh that I wouldn't look like an idiot uh that I wouldn't look like an idiot talking about it would be aircraft. So talking about it would be aircraft. So talking about it would be aircraft. So we're just going to hold on and see if we're just going to hold on and see if we're just going to hold on and see if we can keep up with a guy who loves this we can keep up with a guy who loves this we can keep up with a guy who loves this stuff and understands it at a level I'll stuff and understands it at a level I'll stuff and understands it at a level I'll never be able to um never be able to um never be able to um appreciate. And just in case his own appreciate. And just in case his own appreciate. And just in case his own knowledge wasn't enough, he brought in knowledge wasn't enough, he brought in knowledge wasn't enough, he brought in uh one of the best engineers at SpaceX, uh one of the best engineers at SpaceX, uh one of the best engineers at SpaceX, Mr. Bill Riley, to come in and back him Mr. Bill Riley, to come in and back him Mr. Bill Riley, to come in and back him up on this stuff. So um one way or up on this stuff. So um one way or up on this stuff. So um one way or another we should get this stuff right, another we should get this stuff right, another we should get this stuff right, I would think with the three of us.

I would think with the three of us. I would think with the three of us. In any case, um In any case, um In any case, um I hope you enjoyed this discussion with I hope you enjoyed this discussion with I hope you enjoyed this discussion with Elon Musk talking about well, I guess it Elon Musk talking about well, I guess it Elon Musk talking about well, I guess it started off with him saying that started off with him saying that started off with him saying that engineers don't get enough credit in um engineers don't get enough credit in um engineers don't get enough credit in um warfare and warfare and warfare and well, you know, we'll touch upon a well, you know, we'll touch upon a well, you know, we'll touch upon a little high octane fuel and turbo little high octane fuel and turbo little high octane fuel and turbo supercharged engines along the way. supercharged engines along the way. supercharged engines along the way. Without further ado, Elon Musk and Mr. Without further ado, Elon Musk and Mr. Without further ado, Elon Musk and Mr. Bill Riley from SpaceX. So so what I thought was I'll give the So so what I thought was I'll give the background about how the hell this even, background about how the hell this even, background about how the hell this even, you know, got started in terms of our you know, got started in terms of our you know, got started in terms of our conversation. And then what I thought conversation. And then what I thought conversation. And then what I thought maybe we could start off with, you know, maybe we could start off with, you know, maybe we could start off with, you know, you had talked a lot about how this was you had talked a lot about how this was you had talked a lot about how this was an engineers war and I thought to myself an engineers war and I thought to myself an engineers war and I thought to myself that the Second World War of course was that the Second World War of course was that the Second World War of course was not the first engineers war. You can go not the first engineers war. You can go not the first engineers war. You can go back into history and you can find these back into history and you can find these back into history and you can find these moments, the famous uh the Romans moments, the famous uh the Romans moments, the famous uh the Romans inventing the corvus device to help them inventing the corvus device to help them inventing the corvus device to help them win the naval war in the First Punic win the naval war in the First Punic win the naval war in the First Punic Wars, all those kind of thing. Wars, all those kind of thing. Wars, all those kind of thing. But those are so rare because of the But those are so rare because of the But those are so rare because of the pace of technological change being so pace of technological change being so pace of technological change being so much more slow. And then you get to much more slow. And then you get to much more slow. And then you get to something like the Franco-Prussian War something like the Franco-Prussian War something like the Franco-Prussian War maybe, but certainly in the First World maybe, but certainly in the First World maybe, but certainly in the First World War where aircraft development becomes a War where aircraft development becomes a War where aircraft development becomes a race and that if you develop the next race and that if you develop the next race and that if you develop the next new thing, you might control the skies new thing, you might control the skies new thing, you might control the skies for the next four or five months until for the next four or five months until for the next four or five months until the other side catches up. So maybe you the other side catches up. So maybe you the other side catches up. So maybe you could tell me a little bit about this could tell me a little bit about this could tell me a little bit about this whole engineers war kind of concept.

whole engineers war kind of concept. whole engineers war kind of concept. Yeah, absolutely. Um so for Yeah, absolutely. Um so for Yeah, absolutely. Um so for a lot of books on strategy on war a lot of books on strategy on war a lot of books on strategy on war actually actually actually don't address technology or address it don't address technology or address it don't address technology or address it in a tangential manner, but obviously if in a tangential manner, but obviously if in a tangential manner, but obviously if there's an overwhelming technology there's an overwhelming technology there's an overwhelming technology advantage, that side will win even if advantage, that side will win even if advantage, that side will win even if the odds are dramatically stacked the odds are dramatically stacked the odds are dramatically stacked against them from a numerical standpoint against them from a numerical standpoint against them from a numerical standpoint or they are or they are or they are even if the other side has better even if the other side has better even if the other side has better generalship and is is very smart. If generalship and is is very smart. If generalship and is is very smart. If there's a big technology discontinuity, there's a big technology discontinuity, there's a big technology discontinuity, then the the side with the the advanced then the the side with the the advanced then the the side with the the advanced technology will win. technology will win. technology will win. And as you as you alluded to, most And as you as you alluded to, most And as you as you alluded to, most battles in history because technology battles in history because technology battles in history because technology moved very slowly, uh it was more about moved very slowly, uh it was more about moved very slowly, uh it was more about maneuvering and about tactics and maneuvering and about tactics and maneuvering and about tactics and strategy and and whatnot. strategy and and whatnot. strategy and and whatnot. But uh to use sort of an extreme But uh to use sort of an extreme But uh to use sort of an extreme example, example, example, if for example, you can shoot lasers if for example, you can shoot lasers if for example, you can shoot lasers from space from space from space uh to at at at to any point on the uh to at at at to any point on the uh to at at at to any point on the ground by just by like ground by just by like ground by just by like pointing at it. Um it would not matter pointing at it. Um it would not matter pointing at it. Um it would not matter if you're fighting Julius Caesar, if you're fighting Julius Caesar, if you're fighting Julius Caesar, uh uh uh you know, you know, you know, uh Heinz Guderian, Napoleon, uh Heinz Guderian, Napoleon, uh Heinz Guderian, Napoleon, they just got lasered from space.

they just got lasered from space. they just got lasered from space. So there's no it's it's it's sort of a So there's no it's it's it's sort of a So there's no it's it's it's sort of a you know, what when there is a you know, what when there is a you know, what when there is a technology discontinuity, it it that technology discontinuity, it it that technology discontinuity, it it that just fundamentally flips flips the whole just fundamentally flips flips the whole just fundamentally flips flips the whole situation. And situation. And situation. And in the in the wars in the modern era we in the in the wars in the modern era we in the in the wars in the modern era we we're we're we're very much a technology we're we're we're very much a technology we're we're we're very much a technology race war. Like they were just how fast race war. Like they were just how fast race war. Like they were just how fast can we can we can we innovate the technology? I mean innovate the technology? I mean innovate the technology? I mean obviously an extremely good example of obviously an extremely good example of obviously an extremely good example of that would be a best best example would that would be a best best example would that would be a best best example would be uh be uh be uh the nuclear bomb. the nuclear bomb. the nuclear bomb. If you if you got If you if you got If you if you got any anyone who got nuclear bombs, any anyone who got nuclear bombs, any anyone who got nuclear bombs, that you now win. that you now win. that you now win. That's it. Over end of story. And the That's it. Over end of story. And the That's it. Over end of story. And the reason for the US Manhattan Project reason for the US Manhattan Project reason for the US Manhattan Project which I'd like to emphasize was very which I'd like to emphasize was very which I'd like to emphasize was very much a function of the uh much a function of the uh much a function of the uh the the physics community the the physics community the the physics community more than it was the government. People more than it was the government. People more than it was the government. People think that like this was a government think that like this was a government think that like this was a government thing. The government thing. The government thing. The government certainly supported it, but it was a certainly supported it, but it was a certainly supported it, but it was a decision by the physics community decision by the physics community decision by the physics community without which this it certainly would without which this it certainly would without which this it certainly would not have happened. not have happened. not have happened. And and and the the physics community And and and the the physics community And and and the the physics community said we came to the conclusion that said we came to the conclusion that said we came to the conclusion that we cannot have let let Hitler have the we cannot have let let Hitler have the we cannot have let let Hitler have the bomb obviously and so we must make it bomb obviously and so we must make it bomb obviously and so we must make it first and be certain of it.

first and be certain of it. first and be certain of it. So that So that So that the that's that's an example of like, the that's that's an example of like, the that's that's an example of like, "Okay, you've just got "Okay, you've just got "Okay, you've just got uh some uh some uh some super weapon that and anyone who gets it super weapon that and anyone who gets it super weapon that and anyone who gets it wins." wins." wins." Uh no no better example than nuclear Uh no no better example than nuclear Uh no no better example than nuclear weapons. weapons. weapons. So So So but but I think these technologies but but I think these technologies but but I think these technologies played a a much stronger role in played a a much stronger role in played a a much stronger role in a war than is generally um understood. a war than is generally um understood. a war than is generally um understood. And technology is reviewed in in the And technology is reviewed in in the And technology is reviewed in in the broadest sense. You could also think of broadest sense. You could also think of broadest sense. You could also think of it in the sense of say, do you have a it in the sense of say, do you have a it in the sense of say, do you have a a better phalanx? Do you have uh spears a better phalanx? Do you have uh spears a better phalanx? Do you have uh spears that are bronze or iron or steel? that are bronze or iron or steel? that are bronze or iron or steel? That's a big difference. And one of the That's a big difference. And one of the That's a big difference. And one of the things that the Romans things that the Romans things that the Romans had were um had were um had were um they had actually quite good metallurgy. they had actually quite good metallurgy. they had actually quite good metallurgy. So So So they they had the their swords they they had the their swords they they had the their swords the the there's two general phases the the there's two general phases the the there's two general phases uh is steel uh is steel uh is steel or smith and martensite. The their or smith and martensite. The their or smith and martensite. The their swords were more martensitic. Uh and so swords were more martensitic. Uh and so swords were more martensitic. Uh and so they had they had they had swords that did not bend as much and so swords that did not bend as much and so swords that did not bend as much and so they suddenly only be fighting they suddenly only be fighting they suddenly only be fighting others who had swords that others who had swords that others who had swords that were much more ductile um and basically were much more ductile um and basically were much more ductile um and basically bend over a Roman sword.

bend over a Roman sword. bend over a Roman sword. So obviously you got So obviously you got So obviously you got if you do have a sword fight and your if you do have a sword fight and your if you do have a sword fight and your sword just bends like like a noodle, sword just bends like like a noodle, sword just bends like like a noodle, it doesn't work as well after that. So it doesn't work as well after that. So it doesn't work as well after that. So the Romans actually I think won their the Romans actually I think won their the Romans actually I think won their wars wars wars through technology. through technology. through technology. Uh obviously the internal wars they they Uh obviously the internal wars they they Uh obviously the internal wars they they they were more uh you know, equal they were more uh you know, equal they were more uh you know, equal technology footing, but when when when technology footing, but when when when technology footing, but when when when fighting outside uh the Roman Empire, fighting outside uh the Roman Empire, fighting outside uh the Roman Empire, they would win their wars they would win their wars they would win their wars for technology. Uh so when the Romans for technology. Uh so when the Romans for technology. Uh so when the Romans fought the the Scythians or Sybians, fought the the Scythians or Sybians, fought the the Scythians or Sybians, the the they really did not have a good the the they really did not have a good the the they really did not have a good counter to the mounted war archer. counter to the mounted war archer. counter to the mounted war archer. And especially if they get lured into And especially if they get lured into And especially if they get lured into terrain that is flat and easy to to terrain that is flat and easy to to terrain that is flat and easy to to maneuver for uh horses, then uh they're maneuver for uh horses, then uh they're maneuver for uh horses, then uh they're they're they're pretty much helpless they're they're pretty much helpless they're they're pretty much helpless against uh the technology of a a mounted against uh the technology of a a mounted against uh the technology of a a mounted war archer and and and a mounted archer. war archer and and and a mounted archer. war archer and and and a mounted archer. And and and Genghis Khan took full And and and Genghis Khan took full And and and Genghis Khan took full advantage of the of the whole mounted advantage of the of the whole mounted advantage of the of the whole mounted archer thing obviously as like most archer thing obviously as like most archer thing obviously as like most people who study anything about this people who study anything about this people who study anything about this now. now. now. But looking at say um But looking at say um But looking at say um the World War II and and fighter plane the World War II and and fighter plane the World War II and and fighter plane advancement, bomber advancement, advancement, bomber advancement, advancement, bomber advancement, it's it's perhaps uh interesting to go it's it's perhaps uh interesting to go it's it's perhaps uh interesting to go into into into kind of how things started out kind of how things started out kind of how things started out and then how fast things innovated and then how fast things innovated and then how fast things innovated uh and and the the the the the the the uh and and the the the the the the the uh and and the the the the the the the the technology war of uh specifically the technology war of uh specifically the technology war of uh specifically going into the um going into the um going into the um fighters and and certainly bombers of fighters and and certainly bombers of fighters and and certainly bombers of World War And I'd like to say that And I'd like to say that you know, I think there there was very you know, I think there there was very you know, I think there there was very impressive design work around fighters

impressive design work around fighters impressive design work around fighters done by many countries. Um so done by many countries. Um so done by many countries. Um so Japan, US, Germany, Japan, US, Germany, Japan, US, Germany, uh uh UK, uh uh UK, uh uh UK, uh Russia, uh Russia, uh Russia, and and and others had had some very and and and others had had some very and and and others had had some very impressive impressive impressive fighter designs. And then and then the fighter designs. And then and then the fighter designs. And then and then the US obviously completely crushed it on US obviously completely crushed it on US obviously completely crushed it on the bomber front. So, the bomber front. So, the bomber front. So, but but things didn't quite start out but but things didn't quite start out but but things didn't quite start out that way. that way. that way. At the beginning of World War II, At the beginning of World War II, At the beginning of World War II, when there'd be fights between say in when there'd be fights between say in when there'd be fights between say in the Pacific theater between the Pacific theater between the Pacific theater between a US aircraft and Japanese aircraft, it a US aircraft and Japanese aircraft, it a US aircraft and Japanese aircraft, it there were at sometimes be cases where there were at sometimes be cases where there were at sometimes be cases where there were cases where the entire US there were cases where the entire US there were cases where the entire US squadron was shot down for zero losses squadron was shot down for zero losses squadron was shot down for zero losses on the Japanese side. on the Japanese side. on the Japanese side. It just It just It just you know, to- total KO. you know, to- total KO. you know, to- total KO. And uh because the US fighters really at And uh because the US fighters really at And uh because the US fighters really at the beginning of World War II were were the beginning of World War II were were the beginning of World War II were were not very good. Um and nor were the not very good. Um and nor were the not very good. Um and nor were the tactics. tactics. tactics. And nor was the training. And nor was the training. And nor was the training. So, So, So, it's basically uh the tactics are well, it's basically uh the tactics are well, it's basically uh the tactics are well, the aircraft are terrible and uh the aircraft are terrible and uh the aircraft are terrible and uh and the the training is not not correct.

and the the training is not not correct. and the the training is not not correct. Well, wait, you bring up something Well, wait, you bring up something Well, wait, you bring up something interesting though because I mean you interesting though because I mean you interesting though because I mean you brought up lasers earlier and I think we brought up lasers earlier and I think we brought up lasers earlier and I think we can all agree that if you go to some can all agree that if you go to some can all agree that if you go to some primitive planet where everyone's in primitive planet where everyone's in primitive planet where everyone's in caveman type times and you have lasers, caveman type times and you have lasers, caveman type times and you have lasers, it's game over. But there's but there it's game over. But there's but there it's game over. But there's but there are smaller levels of technological are smaller levels of technological are smaller levels of technological discrepancy, right? Bronze weapons discrepancy, right? Bronze weapons discrepancy, right? Bronze weapons versus iron weapons or or the latest versus iron weapons or or the latest versus iron weapons or or the latest aircraft versus the aircraft from 5 aircraft versus the aircraft from 5 aircraft versus the aircraft from 5 minutes ago, right? Or you mentioned a minutes ago, right? Or you mentioned a minutes ago, right? Or you mentioned a second ago tactics. Well, you know, one second ago tactics. Well, you know, one second ago tactics. Well, you know, one of the things that you know, there's so of the things that you know, there's so of the things that you know, there's so much that you learn when you first start much that you learn when you first start much that you learn when you first start learning about the World Wars for learning about the World Wars for learning about the World Wars for example. And then as you delve farther example. And then as you delve farther example. And then as you delve farther into it, you learn many of the of the into it, you learn many of the of the into it, you learn many of the of the more intricate things like tactics. So, more intricate things like tactics. So, more intricate things like tactics. So, for example, how American fighter pilots for example, how American fighter pilots for example, how American fighter pilots would have tactics to try to overcome would have tactics to try to overcome would have tactics to try to overcome the fact that they're flying inferior the fact that they're flying inferior the fact that they're flying inferior machines, right? Um um uh the Thach machines, right? Um um uh the Thach machines, right? Um um uh the Thach Weave and all these sorts of things Weave and all these sorts of things Weave and all these sorts of things where they try to take advantage of where they try to take advantage of where they try to take advantage of Yeah, the Thach Weave is is is a great Yeah, the Thach Weave is is is a great Yeah, the Thach Weave is is is a great example. example. example. Yeah, exactly. Um Yeah, exactly. Um Yeah, exactly. Um the the the Thach Weave is is is was a the the the Thach Weave is is is was a the the the Thach Weave is is is was a great example of improvement in tactics. great example of improvement in tactics. great example of improvement in tactics. Um if you've got if you're fighting a Um if you've got if you're fighting a Um if you've got if you're fighting a nimble it is um this is was developed in nimble it is um this is was developed in nimble it is um this is was developed in in the in the US in response to the in the in the US in response to the in the in the US in response to the Japanese fighters which were very uh Japanese fighters which were very uh Japanese fighters which were very uh uh agile.

uh agile. uh agile. Nimble. Very nimble. Nimble. Very nimble. Nimble. Very nimble. Yeah, nimble. And so if if you're Yeah, nimble. And so if if you're Yeah, nimble. And so if if you're fighting if if you're you're in if fighting if if you're you're in if fighting if if you're you're in if you're in a thing that's sort of more you're in a thing that's sort of more you're in a thing that's sort of more like a tank and you're you're fighting like a tank and you're you're fighting like a tank and you're you're fighting something which is something which is something which is you know, extremely nimble and but but you know, extremely nimble and but but you know, extremely nimble and but but you if you you are not nimble, but you if you you are not nimble, but you if you you are not nimble, but you've got better armor, you've got better armor, you've got better armor, then the the the you basically want to then the the the you basically want to then the the the you basically want to just let the just let the just let the the the nimble fighter get on your tail the the nimble fighter get on your tail the the nimble fighter get on your tail and then let your squad squadronmate and then let your squad squadronmate and then let your squad squadronmate come back and come back and come back and and come behind you and and and and and come behind you and and and and and come behind you and and and and shoot that plane down while it's trying shoot that plane down while it's trying shoot that plane down while it's trying to shoot you down, but it takes a a long to shoot you down, but it takes a a long to shoot you down, but it takes a a long time to shoot you down because you've time to shoot you down because you've time to shoot you down because you've got a lot of armor. got a lot of armor. got a lot of armor. So so that's like a So so that's like a So so that's like a in a in a nutshell, the Thach Weave. And in a in a nutshell, the Thach Weave. And in a in a nutshell, the Thach Weave. And you could do that back and forth. you could do that back and forth. you could do that back and forth. Uh it it's um Uh it it's um Uh it it's um it made a big difference. Well, and you it made a big difference. Well, and you it made a big difference. Well, and you also have the the stuff that always also have the the stuff that always also have the the stuff that always drives me crazy that I was always so drives me crazy that I was always so drives me crazy that I was always so worried you were going to take me into worried you were going to take me into worried you were going to take me into this territory when we talked and I was this territory when we talked and I was this territory when we talked and I was going to look like an idiot. But but I going to look like an idiot. But but I going to look like an idiot. But but I mean for example, things like uh mean for example, things like uh mean for example, things like uh superchargers superchargers superchargers and being able to take the enemy to and being able to take the enemy to and being able to take the enemy to altitudes where your plane's better than altitudes where your plane's better than altitudes where your plane's better than their plane. I mean the intricacies and their plane. I mean the intricacies and their plane. I mean the intricacies and all this stuff. Yeah, okay. So so so let all this stuff. Yeah, okay. So so so let all this stuff. Yeah, okay. So so so let me ask you this then because we were me ask you this then because we were me ask you this then because we were just talking about um choices in war.

just talking about um choices in war. just talking about um choices in war. And if you have the laser beam and the And if you have the laser beam and the And if you have the laser beam and the other guy doesn't, they're through. But other guy doesn't, they're through. But other guy doesn't, they're through. But I mean one of the things and and it's I mean one of the things and and it's I mean one of the things and and it's funny that I could be a history major funny that I could be a history major funny that I could be a history major and all these things for years, but it and all these things for years, but it and all these things for years, but it took a video game to make me really took a video game to make me really took a video game to make me really think about some of the production think about some of the production think about some of the production tradeoffs, right? The stuff that's not tradeoffs, right? The stuff that's not tradeoffs, right? The stuff that's not so that's not so sexy for a wargamer. so that's not so sexy for a wargamer. so that's not so sexy for a wargamer. Things like is it better or where's the Things like is it better or where's the Things like is it better or where's the sweet spot to build a lot of one design sweet spot to build a lot of one design sweet spot to build a lot of one design where you already have the production where you already have the production where you already have the production line geared up to build Sherman tanks or line geared up to build Sherman tanks or line geared up to build Sherman tanks or T-34 tanks or is it better to to build T-34 tanks or is it better to to build T-34 tanks or is it better to to build um a much smaller amount of much more um a much smaller amount of much more um a much smaller amount of much more sophisticated things. So, Hitler making sophisticated things. So, Hitler making sophisticated things. So, Hitler making multiple choices on jet fighters and jet multiple choices on jet fighters and jet multiple choices on jet fighters and jet bombers. Or maybe would you rather have bombers. Or maybe would you rather have bombers. Or maybe would you rather have 20,000 T-34s or 1,100 Tiger IIs? How 20,000 T-34s or 1,100 Tiger IIs? How 20,000 T-34s or 1,100 Tiger IIs? How does one How does one if if if I put you does one How does one if if if I put you does one How does one if if if I put you in charge if I said, "Elon, come in here in charge if I said, "Elon, come in here in charge if I said, "Elon, come in here in the Second World War. Help us make in the Second World War. Help us make in the Second World War. Help us make these tradeoff decisions." Um do you these tradeoff decisions." Um do you these tradeoff decisions." Um do you have any thoughts on those kinds of have any thoughts on those kinds of have any thoughts on those kinds of tradeoffs? tradeoffs? tradeoffs? Well, Well, Well, I think it's going to be kind of like in I think it's going to be kind of like in I think it's going to be kind of like in a wargame, you know? So, if you've got a wargame, you know? So, if you've got a wargame, you know? So, if you've got let let let's say you have something let let let's say you have something let let let's say you have something with a particular kill ratio. Let's say with a particular kill ratio. Let's say with a particular kill ratio. Let's say if if your kill ratio is three and the if if your kill ratio is three and the if if your kill ratio is three and the thing costs twice as much, then you thing costs twice as much, then you thing costs twice as much, then you should still do that thing because should still do that thing because should still do that thing because you're going to be better off you you're you're going to be better off you you're you're going to be better off you you're it it only costs twice as much, but it it it only costs twice as much, but it it it only costs twice as much, but it has a three-to-one kill ratio.

has a three-to-one kill ratio. has a three-to-one kill ratio. So, what about something like then um So, what about something like then um So, what about something like then um adjustments? So, like when I think of um adjustments? So, like when I think of um adjustments? So, like when I think of um you know, one of the things they used to you know, one of the things they used to you know, one of the things they used to teach us in in the military history teach us in in the military history teach us in in the military history classes was that if you're facing classes was that if you're facing classes was that if you're facing another opponent, the the side that has another opponent, the the side that has another opponent, the the side that has the technological advantage is at its the technological advantage is at its the technological advantage is at its greatest um disparity at the very greatest um disparity at the very greatest um disparity at the very beginning of the conflict. And that if beginning of the conflict. And that if beginning of the conflict. And that if the longer the conflict goes on, the the longer the conflict goes on, the the longer the conflict goes on, the more time the adversary has to adjust more time the adversary has to adjust more time the adversary has to adjust and come up with countermeasures. So, and come up with countermeasures. So, and come up with countermeasures. So, that's how tribal peoples in Afghanistan that's how tribal peoples in Afghanistan that's how tribal peoples in Afghanistan maybe adjust to being the maybe adjust to being the maybe adjust to being the technologically inferior side. Um technologically inferior side. Um technologically inferior side. Um could one make a case today that there could one make a case today that there could one make a case today that there are examples of that, you know, the US are examples of that, you know, the US are examples of that, you know, the US still I would I would assume, correct me still I would I would assume, correct me still I would I would assume, correct me if I'm wrong, the technological leader if I'm wrong, the technological leader if I'm wrong, the technological leader there in military technology. But if there in military technology. But if there in military technology. But if you're uh the Russians or the Chinese you're uh the Russians or the Chinese you're uh the Russians or the Chinese and we end up in a war in 20 years, are and we end up in a war in 20 years, are and we end up in a war in 20 years, are there ways that they can compensate for there ways that they can compensate for there ways that they can compensate for the fact that they're behind on certain the fact that they're behind on certain the fact that they're behind on certain I mean is an electromagnetic pulse I mean is an electromagnetic pulse I mean is an electromagnetic pulse attack something that helps compensate attack something that helps compensate attack something that helps compensate for a satellite uh discrepancy? for a satellite uh discrepancy? for a satellite uh discrepancy? Um Um Um I know we're jumping around here. That's I know we're jumping around here. That's I know we're jumping around here. That's I'm sorry. So, yeah, jump around.

I'm sorry. So, yeah, jump around. I'm sorry. So, yeah, jump around. Um I do think if I could jump in though, Um I do think if I could jump in though, Um I do think if I could jump in though, I think there's there's an interesting I think there's there's an interesting I think there's there's an interesting thing here too, which is your rate of thing here too, which is your rate of thing here too, which is your rate of innovation might be the key after the innovation might be the key after the innovation might be the key after the first opening salvos because if you're first opening salvos because if you're first opening salvos because if you're able to innovate faster, you can make up able to innovate faster, you can make up able to innovate faster, you can make up ground. For example, you know, the first ground. For example, you know, the first ground. For example, you know, the first Mustangs had the Allison engines and Mustangs had the Allison engines and Mustangs had the Allison engines and they weren't good at altitude, but you they weren't good at altitude, but you they weren't good at altitude, but you put a Rolls-Royce turbo supercharged and put a Rolls-Royce turbo supercharged and put a Rolls-Royce turbo supercharged and then you get a really good all-around then you get a really good all-around then you get a really good all-around fighter. fighter. fighter. So, it it might be that the rate of So, it it might be that the rate of So, it it might be that the rate of innovation and ability to adapt to like innovation and ability to adapt to like innovation and ability to adapt to like the the basically the game of rock, the the basically the game of rock, the the basically the game of rock, paper, scissors that Elon and I often paper, scissors that Elon and I often paper, scissors that Elon and I often talk about. Like when there's a better talk about. Like when there's a better talk about. Like when there's a better scissors out there, you need a better scissors out there, you need a better scissors out there, you need a better rock. rock. rock. Or the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss. Or the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss. Or the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss. But you know, you're always chasing the But you know, you're always chasing the But you know, you're always chasing the next widget. The rate of innovation is next widget. The rate of innovation is next widget. The rate of innovation is the key. Um the key. Um the key. Um Okay, so what about the reverse Okay, so what about the reverse Okay, so what about the reverse engineering aspect then? So, famously engineering aspect then? So, famously engineering aspect then? So, famously one of the stories from the Second World one of the stories from the Second World one of the stories from the Second World War is the US getting their hands on a War is the US getting their hands on a War is the US getting their hands on a relatively intact Zero fighter. I think relatively intact Zero fighter. I think relatively intact Zero fighter. I think it was in the Aleutian Islands and being it was in the Aleutian Islands and being it was in the Aleutian Islands and being able to take that apart and maybe maybe able to take that apart and maybe maybe able to take that apart and maybe maybe gain 6 months of time that they wouldn't gain 6 months of time that they wouldn't gain 6 months of time that they wouldn't have had before in the development have had before in the development have had before in the development phase. Um any thoughts on those kinds of phase. Um any thoughts on those kinds of phase. Um any thoughts on those kinds of things? The ability to to to maybe learn things? The ability to to to maybe learn things? The ability to to to maybe learn from your adversary?

from your adversary? from your adversary? Yeah, um Yeah, um Yeah, um I I if if if we sort of put ourselves in I I if if if we sort of put ourselves in I I if if if we sort of put ourselves in the position of like, "Hey, we're it's the position of like, "Hey, we're it's the position of like, "Hey, we're it's our job to design our job to design our job to design advanced fighters." advanced fighters." advanced fighters." For sure we'd love to see uh you know, For sure we'd love to see uh you know, For sure we'd love to see uh you know, again say an enemy fighter or even again say an enemy fighter or even again say an enemy fighter or even allied fighter and take it apart and allied fighter and take it apart and allied fighter and take it apart and take a look at the the small engineering take a look at the the small engineering take a look at the the small engineering decisions that we we think would be decisions that we we think would be decisions that we we think would be interesting. interesting. interesting. What materials they use, what joining What materials they use, what joining What materials they use, what joining methods. methods. methods. Like you know, if it's a so we're Like you know, if it's a so we're Like you know, if it's a so we're getting engine you know, getting engine you know, getting engine you know, you know, what what uh pressure were you know, what what uh pressure were you know, what what uh pressure were they running the they running the they running the uh cylinders at, uh what what are they uh cylinders at, uh what what are they uh cylinders at, uh what what are they using for O-rings. using for O-rings. using for O-rings. It's a ton of things like that. But for It's a ton of things like that. But for It's a ton of things like that. But for example, something like just like example, something like just like example, something like just like material properties that you can count material properties that you can count material properties that you can count on make a big difference. So, but if if on make a big difference. So, but if if on make a big difference. So, but if if you're using say an high-strength uh you're using say an high-strength uh you're using say an high-strength uh aluminum uh sheet for a stress-skin aluminum uh sheet for a stress-skin aluminum uh sheet for a stress-skin wing, wing, wing, you you may have material properties you you may have material properties you you may have material properties depending on how that alloy is made that depending on how that alloy is made that depending on how that alloy is made that could be that that could be variable. could be that that could be variable. could be that that could be variable. And then that that forces you to And then that that forces you to And then that that forces you to use the the lower end of what that use the the lower end of what that use the the lower end of what that variable strength might be. variable strength might be. variable strength might be. Um and that makes the skins thicker, Um and that makes the skins thicker, Um and that makes the skins thicker, that makes the plane heavier. And then that makes the plane heavier. And then that makes the plane heavier. And then you've got a knock-on effect where if if you've got a knock-on effect where if if you've got a knock-on effect where if if the wings are heavier now, the landing the wings are heavier now, the landing the wings are heavier now, the landing gear need to be heavier, engine needs to gear need to be heavier, engine needs to gear need to be heavier, engine needs to be more powerful. You get this recursive be more powerful. You get this recursive be more powerful. You get this recursive effect of mass. So, on the other hand, effect of mass. So, on the other hand, effect of mass. So, on the other hand, if you can count on if you can count on if you can count on very tight material specs, now you can very tight material specs, now you can very tight material specs, now you can you can design the the plane to use you can design the the plane to use you can design the the plane to use uh thinner wing skins.

uh thinner wing skins. uh thinner wing skins. Cuz you don't have to account for the Cuz you don't have to account for the Cuz you don't have to account for the fact that maybe this this batch of fact that maybe this this batch of fact that maybe this this batch of aluminum was was not that good. aluminum was was not that good. aluminum was was not that good. Things things like that actually make a Things things like that actually make a Things things like that actually make a big deal or are a are a big deal. big deal or are a are a big deal. big deal or are a are a big deal. In World War II with the fighter In World War II with the fighter In World War II with the fighter situation, situation, situation, a big factor was what what octane rating a big factor was what what octane rating a big factor was what what octane rating could you count on uh for the for the could you count on uh for the for the could you count on uh for the for the the engine. the engine. the engine. The fuel, yeah. The fuel, yeah. The fuel, yeah. It's a huge deal. It's a huge deal. It's a huge deal. had the high octane stuff. Yeah. Really? had the high octane stuff. Yeah. Really? had the high octane stuff. Yeah. Really? Um Um Um So, if if if you do You know, you're So, if if if you do You know, you're So, if if if you do You know, you're going to like that Adam Tooze book we going to like that Adam Tooze book we going to like that Adam Tooze book we were talking about cuz one of the things were talking about cuz one of the things were talking about cuz one of the things that he focused on that I'd never heard that he focused on that I'd never heard that he focused on that I'd never heard about in terms of Second World War about in terms of Second World War about in terms of Second World War importance was he was talking about the importance was he was talking about the importance was he was talking about the rare materials, the tungsten type stuff rare materials, the tungsten type stuff rare materials, the tungsten type stuff and all the all the sorts of things I and all the all the sorts of things I and all the all the sorts of things I couldn't tell you five little things couldn't tell you five little things couldn't tell you five little things about and they were talking about what a about and they were talking about what a about and they were talking about what a huge deal it was for I mean the Germans huge deal it was for I mean the Germans huge deal it was for I mean the Germans would invent this wonderful new weapon would invent this wonderful new weapon would invent this wonderful new weapon like a something like a cone bore gun like a something like a cone bore gun like a something like a cone bore gun for example, but required tungsten to for example, but required tungsten to for example, but required tungsten to make it work. So, the scientists have make it work. So, the scientists have make it work. So, the scientists have created this wonderful new weapon, but created this wonderful new weapon, but created this wonderful new weapon, but the the state does not have the the the the state does not have the the the the state does not have the the ability to get the basic materials you ability to get the basic materials you ability to get the basic materials you need to have that weapon work. And a need to have that weapon work. And a need to have that weapon work. And a huge part of the whole war thing was who huge part of the whole war thing was who huge part of the whole war thing was who has the the rare materials and where do has the the rare materials and where do has the the rare materials and where do you get them from and how do you how do you get them from and how do you how do you get them from and how do you how do you jury-rig it when you don't have it, you jury-rig it when you don't have it, you jury-rig it when you don't have it, you know, domestically? Um that's you know, domestically? Um that's you know, domestically? Um that's fascinating stuff. You that's right up fascinating stuff. You that's right up fascinating stuff. You that's right up your alley.

your alley. your alley. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Germany and and I think Japan as well Germany and and I think Japan as well Germany and and I think Japan as well were really operating from from a were really operating from from a were really operating from from a position of really not having good position of really not having good position of really not having good access to access to um access to access to um access to access to um uh high-quality fuel and limited access uh high-quality fuel and limited access uh high-quality fuel and limited access to uh rare materials. to uh rare materials. to uh rare materials. But I think it's it's not so much the But I think it's it's not so much the But I think it's it's not so much the rare materials that that that matters. rare materials that that that matters. rare materials that that that matters. It's like It's like It's like if you if if you need if you if if you need if you if if you need you know, the the the you really want you know, the the the you really want you know, the the the you really want want a plane's want a plane's want a plane's body and frame to be primarily aluminum body and frame to be primarily aluminum body and frame to be primarily aluminum and a simple thing like and a simple thing like and a simple thing like can you count on on can you count on on can you count on on what what's your what what's your what what what's your what what's your what what what's your what what's your what are your A-basis material allowables, are your A-basis material allowables, are your A-basis material allowables, B-basis? You know, basically, do you B-basis? You know, basically, do you B-basis? You know, basically, do you have to make a temp the skin 10% thicker have to make a temp the skin 10% thicker have to make a temp the skin 10% thicker to account for to account for to account for variability in the quality of the variability in the quality of the variability in the quality of the aluminum aluminum aluminum or aluminum as it should be called. or aluminum as it should be called. or aluminum as it should be called. Uh that's going to make Uh that's going to make Uh that's going to make your plane is now 10% heavier at a your plane is now 10% heavier at a your plane is now 10% heavier at a structural level because of of uh structural level because of of uh structural level because of of uh strength variation in the in the strength variation in the in the strength variation in the in the aluminum that you've been sent, then uh aluminum that you've been sent, then uh aluminum that you've been sent, then uh that will actually have a knock-on that will actually have a knock-on that will actually have a knock-on effect on everything else. The recursive effect on everything else. The recursive effect on everything else. The recursive effect of your speed, maneuverability, effect of your speed, maneuverability, effect of your speed, maneuverability, everything. everything. everything. the the there's a recursive effect of the the there's a recursive effect of the the there's a recursive effect of mass. So, mass. So, mass. So, It's a mass that gets mass as we say, It's a mass that gets mass as we say, It's a mass that gets mass as we say, right? Yes, mass begets mass.

right? Yes, mass begets mass. right? Yes, mass begets mass. So, So, So, you know, if your primary structure is you know, if your primary structure is you know, if your primary structure is 10% heavier because you had to take 10% 10% heavier because you had to take 10% 10% heavier because you had to take 10% knockdown because of variable materials, knockdown because of variable materials, knockdown because of variable materials, now everything's going to have to be uh now everything's going to have to be uh now everything's going to have to be uh uh heavier, too. You need a a more uh heavier, too. You need a a more uh heavier, too. You need a a more powerful engine to to go at the same powerful engine to to go at the same powerful engine to to go at the same speed and especially to climb at the speed and especially to climb at the speed and especially to climb at the same speed. You need bigger landing same speed. You need bigger landing same speed. You need bigger landing gear. You need more fuel uh because gear. You need more fuel uh because gear. You need more fuel uh because you're carrying a heavier plane. you're carrying a heavier plane. you're carrying a heavier plane. All these things amplify the mass of All these things amplify the mass of All these things amplify the mass of anyone uh so you increase mass, anyone uh so you increase mass, anyone uh so you increase mass, you uh in one area, it's it's actually you uh in one area, it's it's actually you uh in one area, it's it's actually causes mass of everything else to causes mass of everything else to causes mass of everything else to increase as well. increase as well. increase as well. And um And um And um uh uh Germany actually did a a ton of uh uh Germany actually did a a ton of uh uh Germany actually did a a ton of clever things to try to improve the the clever things to try to improve the the clever things to try to improve the the the the the uh the octane rating of the fuel. Like uh the octane rating of the fuel. Like uh the octane rating of the fuel. Like tons of additives and all sorts of tons of additives and all sorts of tons of additives and all sorts of things cuz they would things cuz they would things cuz they would they would just get random they would just get random they would just get random fuel that was pretty bad, whereas the US fuel that was pretty bad, whereas the US fuel that was pretty bad, whereas the US had awesome fuel. had awesome fuel. had awesome fuel. And so they really took it took it to And so they really took it took it to And so they really took it took it to the the the you know, very high octane. you know, very high octane. you know, very high octane. And um as Bo was saying, And um as Bo was saying, And um as Bo was saying, the the Merlin engine and and really the the the Merlin engine and and really the the the Merlin engine and and really the the the best Merlin engine was the one the the best Merlin engine was the one the the best Merlin engine was the one made in the US.

made in the US. made in the US. That was That was That was the the the turbo supercharged Merlin made in the US turbo supercharged Merlin made in the US turbo supercharged Merlin made in the US for the P-51 was such a kickass engine for the P-51 was such a kickass engine for the P-51 was such a kickass engine that's insane. I mean, that's insane. I mean, that's insane. I mean, quite frankly, that's kind of thing quite frankly, that's kind of thing quite frankly, that's kind of thing where where where uh I'm I'm I'm sure that the Germans uh I'm I'm I'm sure that the Germans uh I'm I'm I'm sure that the Germans captured uh some aircraft that had um captured uh some aircraft that had um captured uh some aircraft that had um this this sort of state-of-the-art, you this this sort of state-of-the-art, you this this sort of state-of-the-art, you know, a P-51D uh know, a P-51D uh know, a P-51D uh uh you know, uh uh you know, uh uh you know, uh the the the That would have been late war, though, That would have been late war, though, That would have been late war, though, '44, '45. Yeah, yeah, but but like it '44, '45. Yeah, yeah, but but like it '44, '45. Yeah, yeah, but but like it that's the case where you could you that's the case where you could you that's the case where you could you could hand it to them and the blueprints could hand it to them and the blueprints could hand it to them and the blueprints and it wouldn't matter cuz that engine and it wouldn't matter cuz that engine and it wouldn't matter cuz that engine is it it is so is is actually so is it it is so is is actually so is it it is so is is actually so difficult to make that it's irrelevant. difficult to make that it's irrelevant. difficult to make that it's irrelevant. Isn't that a Briti- Is that a British Isn't that a Briti- Is that a British Isn't that a Briti- Is that a British engine originally? engine originally? engine originally? it's it's originally a British engine it's it's originally a British engine it's it's originally a British engine which was then uh enhanced uh which was then uh enhanced uh which was then uh enhanced uh uh in the US. uh in the US. uh in the US. Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Um and so so the actual best one the Um and so so the actual best one the Um and so so the actual best one the best one was the the the best one was the the the best one was the the the the in in my opinion and maybe different the in in my opinion and maybe different the in in my opinion and maybe different opinions out there, but opinions out there, but opinions out there, but the best one was the the the British the best one was the the the British the best one was the the the British Merlin engine design and but but then Merlin engine design and but but then Merlin engine design and but but then further enhanced uh further enhanced uh further enhanced uh uh with the US uh turbo supercharging uh with the US uh turbo supercharging uh with the US uh turbo supercharging um um um which which led to a the the Mustang which which led to a the the Mustang which which led to a the the Mustang being this incredible long-range high being this incredible long-range high being this incredible long-range high high altitude fighter.

high altitude fighter. high altitude fighter. And but but you you you couldn't if you And but but you you you couldn't if you And but but you you you couldn't if you got low octane fuel in that engine, got low octane fuel in that engine, got low octane fuel in that engine, you'd have real problem. So, Okay, well, you'd have real problem. So, Okay, well, you'd have real problem. So, Okay, well, let me talk about it cuz this is let me talk about it cuz this is let me talk about it cuz this is something most people, yours truly something most people, yours truly something most people, yours truly included, don't understand and you might included, don't understand and you might included, don't understand and you might have to use small words with me, Elon, have to use small words with me, Elon, have to use small words with me, Elon, for a minute. So, but but but like if if for a minute. So, but but but like if if for a minute. So, but but but like if if Dan Carlin looks at the aircraft Dan Carlin looks at the aircraft Dan Carlin looks at the aircraft performance, I'm going to look at the performance, I'm going to look at the performance, I'm going to look at the the the the firepower. I'm going to look the the the firepower. I'm going to look the the the firepower. I'm going to look at the armor. I'm going to look at the at the armor. I'm going to look at the at the armor. I'm going to look at the turn radius. I'm going to look at the turn radius. I'm going to look at the turn radius. I'm going to look at the top speed. I'm going to look at the top speed. I'm going to look at the top speed. I'm going to look at the climb rate. And I'm not going to look at climb rate. And I'm not going to look at climb rate. And I'm not going to look at the octane level. But the Americans had the octane level. But the Americans had the octane level. But the Americans had the extreme octane fuel which it I was the extreme octane fuel which it I was the extreme octane fuel which it I was reading that as the war went on and the reading that as the war went on and the reading that as the war went on and the and the and the Axis fuel got worse and and the and the Axis fuel got worse and and the and the Axis fuel got worse and worse quality, that this advantage worse quality, that this advantage worse quality, that this advantage became more and more pronounced. What became more and more pronounced. What became more and more pronounced. What does it mean to have a higher octane does it mean to have a higher octane does it mean to have a higher octane fuel if you're a pilot? What can you do fuel if you're a pilot? What can you do fuel if you're a pilot? What can you do that the guy with a lower octane fuel that the guy with a lower octane fuel that the guy with a lower octane fuel can't? can't? can't? if you if if you have the lower octane if you if if you have the lower octane if you if if you have the lower octane fuel, you you get pre-combustion. So, fuel, you you get pre-combustion. So, fuel, you you get pre-combustion. So, basically you get knocking. basically you get knocking. basically you get knocking. So, So, So, Reminds me of the old gasoline Reminds me of the old gasoline Reminds me of the old gasoline commercials, the knocking and the commercials, the knocking and the commercials, the knocking and the pinging. pinging. pinging. Yeah. Exactly. The the the Yeah. Exactly. The the the Yeah. Exactly. The the the the air-fuel mixture ignites before the air-fuel mixture ignites before the air-fuel mixture ignites before you're ready for it and then in a you're ready for it and then in a you're ready for it and then in a non-optimal way that robs power and can non-optimal way that robs power and can non-optimal way that robs power and can lead to mechanical failure essentially.

lead to mechanical failure essentially. lead to mechanical failure essentially. Okay, so so is your so if you're the if Okay, so so is your so if you're the if Okay, so so is your so if you're the if you're the other pilot with the lower you're the other pilot with the lower you're the other pilot with the lower octane fuel, besides the knocking and octane fuel, besides the knocking and octane fuel, besides the knocking and the pinning pinging and the lower power, the pinning pinging and the lower power, the pinning pinging and the lower power, does that mean you lose you know, so if does that mean you lose you know, so if does that mean you lose you know, so if conceivably your plane should be able to conceivably your plane should be able to conceivably your plane should be able to go 400 mph, but you're using inferior go 400 mph, but you're using inferior go 400 mph, but you're using inferior fuel, does that lower your top speed? fuel, does that lower your top speed? fuel, does that lower your top speed? I'm trying to figure out how it works I'm trying to figure out how it works I'm trying to figure out how it works for the pilots involved when they're for the pilots involved when they're for the pilots involved when they're trying to make their calculations. trying to make their calculations. trying to make their calculations. Yeah, you would see it show up as power Yeah, you would see it show up as power Yeah, you would see it show up as power and then your power as you go to and then your power as you go to and then your power as you go to different altitudes. different altitudes. different altitudes. Yeah. And then you're you can't Yeah. And then you're you can't Yeah. And then you're you can't So, what's the role of the what's the So, what's the role of the what's the So, what's the role of the what's the role of the supercharger then? Is that a role of the supercharger then? Is that a role of the supercharger then? Is that a high altitude low oxygen thing? high altitude low oxygen thing? high altitude low oxygen thing? Um yes. Um yes. Um yes. The the the The the the The the the turbochargers or superchargers are are turbochargers or superchargers are are turbochargers or superchargers are are increasing the the the combustion increasing the the the combustion increasing the the the combustion pressure. So, pressure. So, pressure. So, uh like basically in in enabling uh like basically in in enabling uh like basically in in enabling you you you're you're you're you're you you you're you're you're you're you you you're you're you're you're basically basically basically if you if you go up high, you're you're if you if you go up high, you're you're if you if you go up high, you're you're you're you're the air's very thin. So, you're you're the air's very thin. So, you're you're the air's very thin. So, if you're just taking air with a normal if you're just taking air with a normal if you're just taking air with a normal carburetor, you're you're going to be carburetor, you're you're going to be carburetor, you're you're going to be oxygen oxygen-starved, just as as a oxygen oxygen-starved, just as as a oxygen oxygen-starved, just as as a human is oxygen-starved. So, you've got human is oxygen-starved. So, you've got human is oxygen-starved. So, you've got to pressurize that air coming in and to pressurize that air coming in and to pressurize that air coming in and feed the engine very high pressure air feed the engine very high pressure air feed the engine very high pressure air so that it can it can uh continue to so that it can it can uh continue to so that it can it can uh continue to produce high power at altitude.

produce high power at altitude. produce high power at altitude. And then you're also going to have a And then you're also going to have a And then you're also going to have a major cooling problem. major cooling problem. major cooling problem. That's the why That's the why That's the why you know, the Mustang had that that you know, the Mustang had that that you know, the Mustang had that that gigantic cooling thing on the um on the gigantic cooling thing on the um on the gigantic cooling thing on the um on the fuselage, fuselage, fuselage, which is then also made dual use of as which is then also made dual use of as which is then also made dual use of as kind of like a jet. It has a slight jet kind of like a jet. It has a slight jet kind of like a jet. It has a slight jet effect. effect. effect. There's a name for it. I forget, but um There's a name for it. I forget, but um There's a name for it. I forget, but um even though it looks like even though it looks like even though it looks like effect. Meredith effect, exactly. effect. Meredith effect, exactly. effect. Meredith effect, exactly. So, it it offset the drag of the So, it it offset the drag of the So, it it offset the drag of the gigantic gigantic gigantic radiator, basically. radiator, basically. radiator, basically. That's um That's um That's um that was on the fuselage of the P-51. that was on the fuselage of the P-51. that was on the fuselage of the P-51. But but frankly, if if the octane is is But but frankly, if if the octane is is But but frankly, if if the octane is is is not high enough, you you will is not high enough, you you will is not high enough, you you will get mechanical damage to the engine and get mechanical damage to the engine and get mechanical damage to the engine and the air- plane will break, you know. So, the air- plane will break, you know. So, the air- plane will break, you know. So, the engine will fail. So, it's not just the engine will fail. So, it's not just the engine will fail. So, it's not just a hey, it's not as good. It's like also a hey, it's not as good. It's like also a hey, it's not as good. It's like also it might conk out on you while you're it might conk out on you while you're it might conk out on you while you're over the Pacific or over, you know, uh over the Pacific or over, you know, uh over the Pacific or over, you know, uh enemy territory and that will be not enemy territory and that will be not enemy territory and that will be not great. great. great. So, So, So, octane is a super big deal.

octane is a super big deal. octane is a super big deal. This is this reminds me of another This is this reminds me of another This is this reminds me of another conversation you and I had and it's made conversation you and I had and it's made conversation you and I had and it's made me think ever since. And it had to do me think ever since. And it had to do me think ever since. And it had to do with with I the plane I think is one of with with I the plane I think is one of with with I the plane I think is one of your favorites, the P-38 Lightning. And your favorites, the P-38 Lightning. And your favorites, the P-38 Lightning. And and and this is another this is another and and this is another this is another and and this is another this is another problem that happens to you when you problem that happens to you when you problem that happens to you when you study this like I do as opposed to study this like I do as opposed to study this like I do as opposed to flying these planes like other people flying these planes like other people flying these planes like other people do, which is you had said to me, having do, which is you had said to me, having do, which is you had said to me, having the two engines would be really the two engines would be really the two engines would be really important if you lost one of them. And I important if you lost one of them. And I important if you lost one of them. And I remember thinking that in the remember thinking that in the remember thinking that in the a big deal for sure. Yeah, but but but I a big deal for sure. Yeah, but but but I a big deal for sure. Yeah, but but but I mean, that's not the kind of thing when mean, that's not the kind of thing when mean, that's not the kind of thing when you're thinking about this in a you're thinking about this in a you're thinking about this in a wargaming sense or an overall strategic wargaming sense or an overall strategic wargaming sense or an overall strategic sense, you're not thinking about an sense, you're not thinking about an sense, you're not thinking about an individual pilot or whatnot. But that individual pilot or whatnot. But that individual pilot or whatnot. But that was that was a revelation for me. Um so was that was a revelation for me. Um so was that was a revelation for me. Um so so for those who don't know, the P-38 is so for those who don't know, the P-38 is so for those who don't know, the P-38 is the one that looks like it's two planes the one that looks like it's two planes the one that looks like it's two planes sort of fused together. It's a classic sort of fused together. It's a classic sort of fused together. It's a classic American design. We ended up making American design. We ended up making American design. We ended up making what, the P-61s like that, too, I think. what, the P-61s like that, too, I think. what, the P-61s like that, too, I think. Um tell me a little about that plane cuz Um tell me a little about that plane cuz Um tell me a little about that plane cuz you you you waxed eloquently on that for you you you waxed eloquently on that for you you you waxed eloquently on that for a while to me before. Um came out in a while to me before. Um came out in a while to me before. Um came out in like what, '38, '39 the design? like what, '38, '39 the design? like what, '38, '39 the design? Yeah. It it didn't really get good until Yeah. It it didn't really get good until Yeah. It it didn't really get good until a couple years later.

a couple years later. a couple years later. And and I think they actually could have And and I think they actually could have And and I think they actually could have taken the the P-38 Lightning much taken the the P-38 Lightning much taken the the P-38 Lightning much further than they did. further than they did. further than they did. Like if you put, for example, Like if you put, for example, Like if you put, for example, state-of-the-art state-of-the-art state-of-the-art uh Merlin engines uh like like the P-51 uh Merlin engines uh like like the P-51 uh Merlin engines uh like like the P-51 got, like the um Mustang got, man, that got, like the um Mustang got, man, that got, like the um Mustang got, man, that would be an epic plane. Insane. would be an epic plane. Insane. would be an epic plane. Insane. Uh but but yeah, the P-38 was it's worth Uh but but yeah, the P-38 was it's worth Uh but but yeah, the P-38 was it's worth noting like I believe um noting like I believe um noting like I believe um most of most of the top American aces, most of most of the top American aces, most of most of the top American aces, if not all, were uh flew P-38s. if not all, were uh flew P-38s. if not all, were uh flew P-38s. And um now the P-38 is is is not like And um now the P-38 is is is not like And um now the P-38 is is is not like was as designed was not great in any was as designed was not great in any was as designed was not great in any theater of war. It was but it was great theater of war. It was but it was great theater of war. It was but it was great in the Pacific theater. in the Pacific theater. in the Pacific theater. But it was ultimately superseded by the But it was ultimately superseded by the But it was ultimately superseded by the uh F6F uh Hellcat. Which uh you know, uh F6F uh Hellcat. Which uh you know, uh F6F uh Hellcat. Which uh you know, this is an interesting bit of trivia. If this is an interesting bit of trivia. If this is an interesting bit of trivia. If you say, "What was the most effective you say, "What was the most effective you say, "What was the most effective fighter plane in World War II?" fighter plane in World War II?" fighter plane in World War II?" And the actual answer is the Hellcat. And the actual answer is the Hellcat. And the actual answer is the Hellcat. Because Because Because What was the criteria you used for that? What was the criteria you used for that? What was the criteria you used for that? The the The the The the the the kill ratio.

the the kill ratio. the the kill ratio. So, So, So, Okay, okay. Well, that has a there's a Okay, okay. Well, that has a there's a Okay, okay. Well, that has a there's a lot of other variables though that go lot of other variables though that go lot of other variables though that go into that. into that. into that. I mean, I mean, I mean, if you're in a battle, if you're in a battle, if you're in a battle, that's the what that's the thing that that's the what that's the thing that that's the what that's the thing that matters. matters. matters. So, So, So, Yeah, but what about but you got pilot Yeah, but what about but you got pilot Yeah, but what about but you got pilot skill? We just talked about octane fuel. skill? We just talked about octane fuel. skill? We just talked about octane fuel. There's uh tactics. There's I mean, I There's uh tactics. There's I mean, I There's uh tactics. There's I mean, I can think of a lot of things that might can think of a lot of things that might can think of a lot of things that might go into what what accounts for a kill go into what what accounts for a kill go into what what accounts for a kill ratio besides just the I mean, would you ratio besides just the I mean, would you ratio besides just the I mean, would you rather have a a Hellcat than a a Corsair rather have a a Hellcat than a a Corsair rather have a a Hellcat than a a Corsair or a Mustang? Uh well, you can't really or a Mustang? Uh well, you can't really or a Mustang? Uh well, you can't really have a Mustang unless you got a Mustang have a Mustang unless you got a Mustang have a Mustang unless you got a Mustang is a uh is a uh is a uh not a carrier aircraft. It's a not a carrier aircraft. It's a not a carrier aircraft. It's a land-based plane. No, it's a land-based land-based plane. No, it's a land-based land-based plane. No, it's a land-based plane. plane. plane. So, first of all, it's important to note So, first of all, it's important to note So, first of all, it's important to note like if you're if on a carrier, you're like if you're if on a carrier, you're like if you're if on a carrier, you're constrained constrained constrained uh uh uh uh uh uh in volume. in volume. in volume. Um Um Um Like you you you can't have like a giant Like you you you can't have like a giant Like you you you can't have like a giant plane or your plane is there's some plane or your plane is there's some plane or your plane is there's some limitations on plane size. You got to limitations on plane size. You got to limitations on plane size. You got to fold the wing, so you're going to lose fold the wing, so you're going to lose fold the wing, so you're going to lose you're going to have some Right. uh you're going to have some Right. uh you're going to have some Right. uh weight added because you got a folding weight added because you got a folding weight added because you got a folding wing. wing. wing. The the The the The the the stall speed has to be super low so the stall speed has to be super low so the stall speed has to be super low so that you can land this thing on a on a that you can land this thing on a on a that you can land this thing on a on a very tiny runway that's in the wind at very tiny runway that's in the wind at very tiny runway that's in the wind at the carrier. Like that's not long.

the carrier. Like that's not long. the carrier. Like that's not long. So, So, So, so as you say, you've got to have to so as you say, you've got to have to so as you say, you've got to have to have a a a slow have a a a slow have a a a slow stall speed or slow landing speed, that stall speed or slow landing speed, that stall speed or slow landing speed, that also impedes the design of the vehicle. also impedes the design of the vehicle. also impedes the design of the vehicle. But really, I mean, for really, I mean, for for today, uh there was no better plane for today, uh there was no better plane for today, uh there was no better plane in the Pacific theater than the F6F in the Pacific theater than the F6F in the Pacific theater than the F6F the the Hellcat. the the Hellcat. the the Hellcat. It was just crushingly good. Like it it It was just crushingly good. Like it it It was just crushingly good. Like it it it was it did the best at the rock, it was it did the best at the rock, it was it did the best at the rock, paper, scissors situation. And I believe paper, scissors situation. And I believe paper, scissors situation. And I believe had uh something like a 13 to one kill had uh something like a 13 to one kill had uh something like a 13 to one kill ratio. ratio. ratio. So, So, So, that's that's a nutty number. It's that's that's a nutty number. It's that's that's a nutty number. It's nutty. And this is this is pilot skill nutty. And this is this is pilot skill nutty. And this is this is pilot skill uh is is is not I would say it doesn't uh is is is not I would say it doesn't uh is is is not I would say it doesn't was not a significant factor in this was not a significant factor in this was not a significant factor in this because of the pilots of of those planes because of the pilots of of those planes because of the pilots of of those planes had never been in combat. had never been in combat. had never been in combat. Or had been combat to a very very Or had been combat to a very very Or had been combat to a very very limited degree. limited degree. limited degree. The Hellcat was actually intentionally The Hellcat was actually intentionally The Hellcat was actually intentionally designed designed designed so that someone who so that someone who so that someone who had a small number of flight hours would had a small number of flight hours would had a small number of flight hours would be able to fly it safely. Cuz um besides be able to fly it safely. Cuz um besides be able to fly it safely. Cuz um besides being shot down by an enemy aircraft, being shot down by an enemy aircraft, being shot down by an enemy aircraft, there's also landing on the carrier and there's also landing on the carrier and there's also landing on the carrier and not crashing.

not crashing. not crashing. Which is really Which is really Which is really It's a subtle point, yes. It's a subtle point, yes. It's a subtle point, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These things don't land themselves. These things don't land themselves. These things don't land themselves. Um Um Um So so Elon, wait a minute. So you talked So so Elon, wait a minute. So you talked So so Elon, wait a minute. So you talked now a couple of times about the rock, now a couple of times about the rock, now a couple of times about the rock, paper, scissors dynamic when it comes to paper, scissors dynamic when it comes to paper, scissors dynamic when it comes to aircraft. Now in naval development, aircraft. Now in naval development, aircraft. Now in naval development, that's easy. We say speed, armor, that's easy. We say speed, armor, that's easy. We say speed, armor, gunfire. What is the rock, paper, gunfire. What is the rock, paper, gunfire. What is the rock, paper, scissors scissors scissors apply to in air combat? apply to in air combat? apply to in air combat? Or air development. Or air development. Or air development. Sure. Um Sure. Um Sure. Um I'm both of you please weigh in when I'm both of you please weigh in when I'm both of you please weigh in when whenever you'd like. Um but you know, whenever you'd like. Um but you know, whenever you'd like. Um but you know, it's if you take something to the it's if you take something to the it's if you take something to the Pacific theater for a while, you have Pacific theater for a while, you have Pacific theater for a while, you have the uh the Zero, which is and really an the uh the Zero, which is and really an the uh the Zero, which is and really an awesome design, extremely agile, awesome design, extremely agile, awesome design, extremely agile, and and and uh uh uh you know, really cool in a lot of ways. you know, really cool in a lot of ways. you know, really cool in a lot of ways. Light light and Light light and Light light and re- really really effective and like I re- really really effective and like I re- really really effective and like I said in in the early air battles in the said in in the early air battles in the said in in the early air battles in the Pacific, the the Pacific, the the Pacific, the the the Zero would absolutely dominate. the Zero would absolutely dominate. the Zero would absolutely dominate. It did to a ridiculous And they had they It did to a ridiculous And they had they It did to a ridiculous And they had they had better pilots in the early war, too, had better pilots in the early war, too, had better pilots in the early war, too, though. That does come into play, though. That does come into play, though. That does come into play, doesn't it? Those are veteran pilots doesn't it? Those are veteran pilots doesn't it? Those are veteran pilots flying those zeros. flying those zeros. flying those zeros. Um Um Um No, I well Flying in China, flying, you No, I well Flying in China, flying, you No, I well Flying in China, flying, you know, all of that stuff. Yeah. Um The the The the I I I think the the the the I I I think the the the the I I I think the the the the I mean, you guys started off with the I mean, you guys started off with the I mean, you guys started off with the kind of the the worst planes, the worst kind of the the worst planes, the worst kind of the the worst planes, the worst tactics, and the worst training.

tactics, and the worst training. tactics, and the worst training. That's true. I'm not going to argue with That's true. I'm not going to argue with That's true. I'm not going to argue with that. No, I'm not going to argue with that. No, I'm not going to argue with that. No, I'm not going to argue with that. that. that. pretty pretty bad, really. I mean, it's pretty pretty bad, really. I mean, it's pretty pretty bad, really. I mean, it's it's rough seeing some of those early it's rough seeing some of those early it's rough seeing some of those early battles where man, those kids never battles where man, those kids never battles where man, those kids never stood a chance. No. So stood a chance. No. So stood a chance. No. So the you know, the the you know, the the you know, the the Zero was for sure the the Zero was for sure the the Zero was for sure the superior thing in the beginning to the superior thing in the beginning to the superior thing in the beginning to the uh US fighters. uh US fighters. uh US fighters. Uh Uh Uh so so so but very very quickly uh US evolved the but very very quickly uh US evolved the but very very quickly uh US evolved the training, uh the tactics, like and the training, uh the tactics, like and the training, uh the tactics, like and the technology. technology. technology. And then the the thing is like, okay, so And then the the thing is like, okay, so And then the the thing is like, okay, so if the US starts off with paper and the if the US starts off with paper and the if the US starts off with paper and the and say Japan has scissors, and say Japan has scissors, and say Japan has scissors, what what's the rock in this case? what what's the rock in this case? what what's the rock in this case? So So So the rock in this case really was the the the rock in this case really was the the the rock in this case really was the the the best rock. Uh the best rock. Uh the best rock. Uh and this is just, you know, looking at and this is just, you know, looking at and this is just, you know, looking at actual battle stats. actual battle stats. actual battle stats. Uh was the carrier-based F6F Hellcat. Uh was the carrier-based F6F Hellcat. Uh was the carrier-based F6F Hellcat. Now, this is not a pretty plane. And the Now, this is not a pretty plane. And the Now, this is not a pretty plane. And the reason there reason there reason there they're not there are very few of these they're not there are very few of these they're not there are very few of these around is because around is because around is because it's it's not the best-looking aircraft, it's it's not the best-looking aircraft, it's it's not the best-looking aircraft, frankly. They're bulky, aren't they?

frankly. They're bulky, aren't they? frankly. They're bulky, aren't they? They're kind of bulky. Like P-47s are They're kind of bulky. Like P-47s are They're kind of bulky. Like P-47s are bulky, the Brewster Buffalo was bulky. bulky, the Brewster Buffalo was bulky. bulky, the Brewster Buffalo was bulky. It's bulky and and frankly It's bulky and and frankly It's bulky and and frankly not not a handsome plane. not not a handsome plane. not not a handsome plane. So A lot of armor. Bulky and and kind of So A lot of armor. Bulky and and kind of So A lot of armor. Bulky and and kind of cool, but this is bulky and they not cool, but this is bulky and they not cool, but this is bulky and they not like they not like good. But it it's a like they not like good. But it it's a like they not like good. But it it's a kick-ass fighter. It's the it's it is kick-ass fighter. It's the it's it is kick-ass fighter. It's the it's it is then the rock to the the scissors that then the rock to the the scissors that then the rock to the the scissors that is the is the is the Zero. Zero. Zero. And so with with F6F it's really great And so with with F6F it's really great And so with with F6F it's really great design. It's literally designed like design. It's literally designed like design. It's literally designed like with intent of we're going to have a with intent of we're going to have a with intent of we're going to have a whole bunch of new pilots who've never whole bunch of new pilots who've never whole bunch of new pilots who've never been in combat, never been in combat, been in combat, never been in combat, been in combat, never been in combat, have had have landed very few times on a have had have landed very few times on a have had have landed very few times on a carrier, and and you know, carrier, and and you know, carrier, and and you know, some of them are just not that some of them are just not that some of them are just not that there's not that good at there's not that good at there's not that good at at flying, really. So at flying, really. So at flying, really. So uh they just got conscripted and they uh they just got conscripted and they uh they just got conscripted and they were like, you know, riding a tractor in were like, you know, riding a tractor in were like, you know, riding a tractor in Kansas until not that long ago. Kansas until not that long ago. Kansas until not that long ago. So it was designed with that in mind. So it was designed with that in mind. So it was designed with that in mind. It's like it's like, let's make this It's like it's like, let's make this It's like it's like, let's make this thing easy to fly, easy to land, thing easy to fly, easy to land, thing easy to fly, easy to land, so non- non-combat casualty is low, so non- non-combat casualty is low, so non- non-combat casualty is low, uh easy to maintain, uh make the the uh easy to maintain, uh make the the uh easy to maintain, uh make the the wings easy to fold, so you can, you wings easy to fold, so you can, you wings easy to fold, so you can, you know, store them really really fast and know, store them really really fast and know, store them really really fast and and get them ready for flight real fast.

and get them ready for flight real fast. and get them ready for flight real fast. We're going to give them heavy guns. We're going to give them heavy guns. We're going to give them heavy guns. They got 50 cows. They got 50 cows. They got 50 cows. And we're going to give this thing a lot And we're going to give this thing a lot And we're going to give this thing a lot of armor. of armor. of armor. Okay, so it's got a lot it's it's got a Okay, so it's got a lot it's it's got a Okay, so it's got a lot it's it's got a lot of armor. It's got a lot of power. lot of armor. It's got a lot of power. lot of armor. It's got a lot of power. This is a big this is actually quite a This is a big this is actually quite a This is a big this is actually quite a big plane. So you you see the size of big plane. So you you see the size of big plane. So you you see the size of this thing, it's it's this thing, it's it's this thing, it's it's looks like a bull. looks like a bull. looks like a bull. Um Um Um I think almost four times the power of I think almost four times the power of I think almost four times the power of the Zero. the Zero. the Zero. Right. Right. Right. So So So big big ass big ass engine big big ass big ass engine big big ass big ass engine and and just really robust to fire, and and just really robust to fire, and and just really robust to fire, especially to uh lower caliber bullets. especially to uh lower caliber bullets. especially to uh lower caliber bullets. So if it's being shot with like .303s or So if it's being shot with like .303s or So if it's being shot with like .303s or something like that, the lower caliber something like that, the lower caliber something like that, the lower caliber bullets, it it it it's like basically bullets, it it it it's like basically bullets, it it it it's like basically like taking a shower. It doesn't care, like taking a shower. It doesn't care, like taking a shower. It doesn't care, you know? you know? you know? Did they have self-sealing tanks and all Did they have self-sealing tanks and all Did they have self-sealing tanks and all that kind of stuff, too? The Japanese that kind of stuff, too? The Japanese that kind of stuff, too? The Japanese were not big on Yeah, okay. Totally. So were not big on Yeah, okay. Totally. So were not big on Yeah, okay. Totally. So so you got you got fuel tanks that seal so you got you got fuel tanks that seal so you got you got fuel tanks that seal themselves. This it was it was very themselves. This it was it was very themselves. This it was it was very carefully armored. carefully armored. carefully armored. So it had like heavy duty armor in in So it had like heavy duty armor in in So it had like heavy duty armor in in the right places. And so what would the right places. And so what would the right places. And so what would happen is a Zero would get on the back happen is a Zero would get on the back happen is a Zero would get on the back on the tail of a on the tail of a on the tail of a of a Hellcat and would just be peppering of a Hellcat and would just be peppering of a Hellcat and would just be peppering the thing like guns blazing, the thing like guns blazing, the thing like guns blazing, pressing the fire button going pressing the fire button going pressing the fire button going and that's the thing is just not coming and that's the thing is just not coming and that's the thing is just not coming down, okay?

down, okay? down, okay? So it didn't matter if the Hellcat was So it didn't matter if the Hellcat was So it didn't matter if the Hellcat was not that maneuverable. not that maneuverable. not that maneuverable. So So So You know what though, you're mak- you're You know what though, you're mak- you're You know what though, you're mak- you're making me think of a whole different making me think of a whole different making me think of a whole different class of planes though, and I hope you class of planes though, and I hope you class of planes though, and I hope you don't mind me shifting here cuz now don't mind me shifting here cuz now don't mind me shifting here cuz now you've got me thinking about um for you you've got me thinking about um for you you've got me thinking about um for you know, one of the planes I was always know, one of the planes I was always know, one of the planes I was always kind of interested in was was something kind of interested in was was something kind of interested in was was something like, you know, Henschel was making a like, you know, Henschel was making a like, you know, Henschel was making a ground attack aircraft. They had a 126 ground attack aircraft. They had a 126 ground attack aircraft. They had a 126 and a 129, and they were a combination and a 129, and they were a combination and a 129, and they were a combination of super heavily armored planes, really of super heavily armored planes, really of super heavily armored planes, really not very maneuverable, not very fast cuz not very maneuverable, not very fast cuz not very maneuverable, not very fast cuz they were they were flying tanks, and they were they were flying tanks, and they were they were flying tanks, and then a gun that was more suited to a then a gun that was more suited to a then a gun that was more suited to a tank, too, and trying to figure out, you tank, too, and trying to figure out, you tank, too, and trying to figure out, you know, how you handle a massive recoil of know, how you handle a massive recoil of know, how you handle a massive recoil of a heavy gun in an aircraft and whatnot. a heavy gun in an aircraft and whatnot. a heavy gun in an aircraft and whatnot. Um any thoughts or any insights into Um any thoughts or any insights into Um any thoughts or any insights into into something like the the ground into something like the the ground into something like the the ground attack aircraft? Cuz these days we would attack aircraft? Cuz these days we would attack aircraft? Cuz these days we would look at aircraft as being uh and and all look at aircraft as being uh and and all look at aircraft as being uh and and all during the Cold War, the idea of how the during the Cold War, the idea of how the during the Cold War, the idea of how the US was going to compensate for this US was going to compensate for this US was going to compensate for this massive armored thrust through the Fulda massive armored thrust through the Fulda massive armored thrust through the Fulda Gap in Central Europe or something was Gap in Central Europe or something was Gap in Central Europe or something was going to be with aircraft that just took going to be with aircraft that just took going to be with aircraft that just took out all these tanks, which of course is out all these tanks, which of course is out all these tanks, which of course is really a Second World War development. really a Second World War development. really a Second World War development. Any thoughts on the idea of ground Any thoughts on the idea of ground Any thoughts on the idea of ground attack aircraft?

attack aircraft? attack aircraft? Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um So if you it's it's like it's it's the So if you it's it's like it's it's the So if you it's it's like it's it's the thing of these things is very much rock, thing of these things is very much rock, thing of these things is very much rock, paper, scissors. And you know, it's it's paper, scissors. And you know, it's it's paper, scissors. And you know, it's it's hard to be a master of all trades. So hard to be a master of all trades. So hard to be a master of all trades. So so you really want to have like the so you really want to have like the so you really want to have like the right aircraft for the right use. And right aircraft for the right use. And right aircraft for the right use. And ground ground attack aircraft really ground ground attack aircraft really ground ground attack aircraft really need to be heavily armored on the bottom need to be heavily armored on the bottom need to be heavily armored on the bottom and around the engine cowling because and around the engine cowling because and around the engine cowling because that's where the bullets are coming that's where the bullets are coming that's where the bullets are coming from. from. from. And and you want to be probably pretty And and you want to be probably pretty And and you want to be probably pretty pretty fast. Uh you don't want to be pretty fast. Uh you don't want to be pretty fast. Uh you don't want to be staying down on the deck for too long. staying down on the deck for too long. staying down on the deck for too long. Uh Uh Uh if if you're doing strafing runs. if if you're doing strafing runs. if if you're doing strafing runs. But like for example, the the P-51 was But like for example, the the P-51 was But like for example, the the P-51 was an amazing high-altitude fighter, but it an amazing high-altitude fighter, but it an amazing high-altitude fighter, but it was not so great as a ground attack was not so great as a ground attack was not so great as a ground attack aircraft because it was vulnerable from aircraft because it was vulnerable from aircraft because it was vulnerable from the bottom. the bottom. the bottom. The the armor on the bottom was was much The the armor on the bottom was was much The the armor on the bottom was was much more limited, and it had the oil cooler more limited, and it had the oil cooler more limited, and it had the oil cooler uh uh uh that you know, that oil cooler I was that you know, that oil cooler I was that you know, that oil cooler I was talking about that provided some thrust talking about that provided some thrust talking about that provided some thrust using the Meredith effect uh was using the Meredith effect uh was using the Meredith effect uh was vulnerable from the bottom. So it it was vulnerable from the bottom. So it it was vulnerable from the bottom. So it it was it was the the it was the the it was the the Mustang was geared towards, you know, Mustang was geared towards, you know, Mustang was geared towards, you know, your combat with with fighter aircraft, your combat with with fighter aircraft, your combat with with fighter aircraft, and so it was was quite good in that and so it was was quite good in that and so it was was quite good in that respect, very good in that respect. But respect, very good in that respect. But respect, very good in that respect. But they had a lot of planes down because of they had a lot of planes down because of they had a lot of planes down because of ground attacks.

ground attacks. ground attacks. Where they're basically at some point, Where they're basically at some point, Where they're basically at some point, there just weren't any more fighters to there just weren't any more fighters to there just weren't any more fighters to deal with, so deal with, so deal with, so the Mustangs would go down and and do the Mustangs would go down and and do the Mustangs would go down and and do ground attack. ground attack. ground attack. But but they they got shot down quite a But but they they got shot down quite a But but they they got shot down quite a bit in ground attack because they were bit in ground attack because they were bit in ground attack because they were just not they weren't well suited for just not they weren't well suited for just not they weren't well suited for that. that. that. You you want something that's got a lot You you want something that's got a lot You you want something that's got a lot like I said, a lot of heavy armor from like I said, a lot of heavy armor from like I said, a lot of heavy armor from the direction the bullets are coming, the direction the bullets are coming, the direction the bullets are coming, which is the bottom. which is the bottom. which is the bottom. And and not not you don't want to have And and not not you don't want to have And and not not you don't want to have too much vulnerable stuff there. If too much vulnerable stuff there. If too much vulnerable stuff there. If you're if you're doing strafing runs. you're if you're doing strafing runs. you're if you're doing strafing runs. And if you're doing bombing, that's a And if you're doing bombing, that's a And if you're doing bombing, that's a that's a whole different subject. that's a whole different subject. that's a whole different subject. So You know, I'm trying to think about So You know, I'm trying to think about So You know, I'm trying to think about the most the most impactful fighter war the most the most impactful fighter war the most the most impactful fighter war of all time, right? Cuz you know, like of all time, right? Cuz you know, like of all time, right? Cuz you know, like you said, bombing's a different thing. you said, bombing's a different thing. you said, bombing's a different thing. But to me, I'm thinking of like when But to me, I'm thinking of like when But to me, I'm thinking of like when fighters and fighter development, not fighters and fighter development, not fighters and fighter development, not just in terms of the development of the just in terms of the development of the just in terms of the development of the planes themselves, but the tactics, the planes themselves, but the tactics, the planes themselves, but the tactics, the strategies, and all this stuff. Can you strategies, and all this stuff. Can you strategies, and all this stuff. Can you think I think the Battle of Britain's think I think the Battle of Britain's think I think the Battle of Britain's got to be the most impactful, mostly got to be the most impactful, mostly got to be the most impactful, mostly concerned with a fighter technology sort concerned with a fighter technology sort concerned with a fighter technology sort of thing, and you have Spitfires and of thing, and you have Spitfires and of thing, and you have Spitfires and Hurricanes on one side, you have Hurricanes on one side, you have Hurricanes on one side, you have Focke-Wulfs and Messerschmitts on the Focke-Wulfs and Messerschmitts on the Focke-Wulfs and Messerschmitts on the other. Any thoughts on the Battle of other. Any thoughts on the Battle of other. Any thoughts on the Battle of Britain and the whole ebb and flow of Britain and the whole ebb and flow of Britain and the whole ebb and flow of the technological rock, paper, scissors the technological rock, paper, scissors the technological rock, paper, scissors game going on in that one?

game going on in that one? game going on in that one? Uh sure. Uh so Uh sure. Uh so Uh sure. Uh so yeah, the Britain mostly had like yeah, the Britain mostly had like yeah, the Britain mostly had like Spitfires and Hurricanes, and and now Spitfires and Hurricanes, and and now Spitfires and Hurricanes, and and now the Spitfires and Hurricanes also went the Spitfires and Hurricanes also went the Spitfires and Hurricanes also went through very rapid evolution. So if you through very rapid evolution. So if you through very rapid evolution. So if you say Spitfire, you say which one? say Spitfire, you say which one? say Spitfire, you say which one? Literally you can take apart Right, Literally you can take apart Right, Literally you can take apart Right, which vary A, B, C, D, they all sound which vary A, B, C, D, they all sound which vary A, B, C, D, they all sound like that, right? like that, right? like that, right? rapidly iterating versions of the rapidly iterating versions of the rapidly iterating versions of the Spitfire and Hurricane so freaking fast Spitfire and Hurricane so freaking fast Spitfire and Hurricane so freaking fast that you you have to like say which that you you have to like say which that you you have to like say which month or maybe even which which week and month or maybe even which which week and month or maybe even which which week and which month uh was that fighter built? which month uh was that fighter built? which month uh was that fighter built? So that that you know, So that that you know, So that that you know, Britain did actually an incredible job Britain did actually an incredible job Britain did actually an incredible job of rapidly evolving fighter and of rapidly evolving fighter and of rapidly evolving fighter and Hurricane. And and actually Germany did Hurricane. And and actually Germany did Hurricane. And and actually Germany did a great job, too. Uh a great job, too. Uh a great job, too. Uh the the Focke-Wulf Focke-Wulf and the the Focke-Wulf Focke-Wulf and the the Focke-Wulf Focke-Wulf and Messerschmitt were were amazing. Messerschmitt were were amazing. Messerschmitt were were amazing. Uh Uh Uh but but they were they were really but but they were they were really but but they were they were really operating at a significant disadvantage operating at a significant disadvantage operating at a significant disadvantage uh from a range standpoint. So uh you know, if you're doing these sort uh you know, if you're doing these sort of like these of like these of like these maneuvers all over the place where at maneuvers all over the place where at maneuvers all over the place where at you know, just cranking full throttle, you know, just cranking full throttle, you know, just cranking full throttle, climbing and diving, you using a a lot climbing and diving, you using a a lot climbing and diving, you using a a lot of fuel when you do that.

of fuel when you do that. of fuel when you do that. So they're climbing constantly. And So they're climbing constantly. And So they're climbing constantly. And the German fighters were coming over the German fighters were coming over the German fighters were coming over from from from uh airfields from in in France uh or uh airfields from in in France uh or uh airfields from in in France uh or Netherlands or basically not close. Netherlands or basically not close. Netherlands or basically not close. And so they they would And so they they would And so they they would they would reach uh London or something they would reach uh London or something they would reach uh London or something like that and only have like that and only have like that and only have maybe 20 minutes of of combat time. maybe 20 minutes of of combat time. maybe 20 minutes of of combat time. Whereas the Whereas the Whereas the British planes might have an hour of British planes might have an hour of British planes might have an hour of combat time and very quick to refuel and combat time and very quick to refuel and combat time and very quick to refuel and be back up in the air. be back up in the air. be back up in the air. So you can So you can So you can And if you get shot down, you're shot And if you get shot down, you're shot And if you get shot down, you're shot down over friendly territory. Yeah, down over friendly territory. Yeah, down over friendly territory. Yeah, you're shot down over friendly you're shot down over friendly you're shot down over friendly territory. territory. territory. But but you can think of like the if you But but you can think of like the if you But but you can think of like the if you have X number of fighters have X number of fighters have X number of fighters but then like here's an additional but then like here's an additional but then like here's an additional nuance is nuance is nuance is what percentage of the time can they be what percentage of the time can they be what percentage of the time can they be useful? And useful? And useful? And so even if you if you if you're so even if you if you if you're so even if you if you if you're attacking from far away attacking from far away attacking from far away and you have 20 minutes for argument's and you have 20 minutes for argument's and you have 20 minutes for argument's sake, 20 minutes of of sake, 20 minutes of of sake, 20 minutes of of flight time of of a fighter time of flight time of of a fighter time of flight time of of a fighter time of combat time. combat time. combat time. And you're the opposition has an hour of And you're the opposition has an hour of And you're the opposition has an hour of combat time.

combat time. combat time. That's that's it's almost like having That's that's it's almost like having That's that's it's almost like having three times as many planes. three times as many planes. three times as many planes. Oh, interesting way to look at it. Yeah. Oh, interesting way to look at it. Yeah. Oh, interesting way to look at it. Yeah. So So So and very easy for them to bring up and very easy for them to bring up and very easy for them to bring up reinforcements dynamically. So it's sort reinforcements dynamically. So it's sort reinforcements dynamically. So it's sort of like oh uh of like oh uh of like oh uh let's let's cuz you know if if if if let's let's cuz you know if if if if let's let's cuz you know if if if if being outnumbered is a a being outnumbered is a a being outnumbered is a a not a great way to win. Like if you you not a great way to win. Like if you you not a great way to win. Like if you you know if it's like six planes against you know if it's like six planes against you know if it's like six planes against you know 20 planes, the six planes are in know 20 planes, the six planes are in know 20 planes, the six planes are in trouble. They should run away. That would be very difficult. Just run That would be very difficult. Just run away. away. away. So So So it's obviously pretty easy to see that it's obviously pretty easy to see that it's obviously pretty easy to see that okay these how many planes are coming okay these how many planes are coming okay these how many planes are coming where are they headed and you have radar where are they headed and you have radar where are they headed and you have radar systems and everything and say okay systems and everything and say okay systems and everything and say okay let's let's have a let's concentrate the let's let's have a let's concentrate the let's let's have a let's concentrate the defense fighters in this you know right defense fighters in this you know right defense fighters in this you know right right here and just very very quickly right here and just very very quickly right here and just very very quickly fly up reinforcements. So fly up reinforcements. So fly up reinforcements. So I think the the I think the the I think the the obviously Battle of Britain was was was obviously Battle of Britain was was was obviously Battle of Britain was was was was not a smart move was not a smart move was not a smart move in in any way in in any way in in any way on for on for on for you know for Germany to do that. That you know for Germany to do that. That you know for Germany to do that. That was it's just was it's just was it's just it's just it was not going to work. So it's just it was not going to work. So it's just it was not going to work. So German strategic decision-making leaves German strategic decision-making leaves German strategic decision-making leaves something to be desired. Yes, for sure.

something to be desired. Yes, for sure. something to be desired. Yes, for sure. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that I think I think their I think that I think I think their I think that I think I think their tactical abilities and their abilities tactical abilities and their abilities tactical abilities and their abilities in in scientific design and whatever in in scientific design and whatever in in scientific design and whatever sort of shielded them from the the the sort of shielded them from the the the sort of shielded them from the the the mistakes that they made strategically to mistakes that they made strategically to mistakes that they made strategically to some degree. Speaking of that, I want to some degree. Speaking of that, I want to some degree. Speaking of that, I want to ask you cuz one of the my favorite ask you cuz one of the my favorite ask you cuz one of the my favorite sections in any book on the development sections in any book on the development sections in any book on the development of military aircraft is the interwar of military aircraft is the interwar of military aircraft is the interwar years because you get a chance to see a years because you get a chance to see a years because you get a chance to see a whole bunch of designs that eventually whole bunch of designs that eventually whole bunch of designs that eventually turned into like dead end designs and turned into like dead end designs and turned into like dead end designs and I'm fascinated by some of these I'm fascinated by some of these I'm fascinated by some of these experiments. You see it in the Soviet experiments. You see it in the Soviet experiments. You see it in the Soviet Union a ton but even we were just Union a ton but even we were just Union a ton but even we were just mentioning the Battle of Britain where mentioning the Battle of Britain where mentioning the Battle of Britain where they unleashed the the supposedly you they unleashed the the supposedly you they unleashed the the supposedly you know game-changing Messerschmitt 110s know game-changing Messerschmitt 110s know game-changing Messerschmitt 110s and it proves to be those those for and it proves to be those those for and it proves to be those those for those who don't know this is a larger those who don't know this is a larger those who don't know this is a larger fighter and the idea was it was going to fighter and the idea was it was going to fighter and the idea was it was going to use use firepower and size but it turned use use firepower and size but it turned use use firepower and size but it turned out to just be total meat to the smaller out to just be total meat to the smaller out to just be total meat to the smaller more nimble fighters that could get on more nimble fighters that could get on more nimble fighters that could get on their tail. Um do you have any favorite their tail. Um do you have any favorite their tail. Um do you have any favorite of these dead end designs or something of these dead end designs or something of these dead end designs or something that you wish you know that had been that you wish you know that had been that you wish you know that had been stuck to a little bit longer and would stuck to a little bit longer and would stuck to a little bit longer and would have maybe in your mind made more of a have maybe in your mind made more of a have maybe in your mind made more of a difference? Um Maybe there is no dead end designs you Maybe there is no dead end designs you like. Let's leave the Let's leave the like. Let's leave the Let's leave the like. Let's leave the Let's leave the door open to that possibility.

door open to that possibility. door open to that possibility. Well Well Well I mean there's there's an argument that I mean there's there's an argument that I mean there's there's an argument that on the German side they should have on the German side they should have on the German side they should have perhaps focused on the Focke-Wulf 190. perhaps focused on the Focke-Wulf 190. perhaps focused on the Focke-Wulf 190. It was a great plane. Yeah, great It was a great plane. Yeah, great It was a great plane. Yeah, great Focke-Wulf 190 was really great plane Focke-Wulf 190 was really great plane Focke-Wulf 190 was really great plane and just double down on that and and and just double down on that and and and just double down on that and and made that primary plane. That was that made that primary plane. That was that made that primary plane. That was that was an excellent plane. was an excellent plane. was an excellent plane. They built a ton more They built a ton more They built a ton more of the Messerschmitt 109 versions though of the Messerschmitt 109 versions though of the Messerschmitt 109 versions though than that. Ton more. than that. Ton more. than that. Ton more. Yeah, it didn't make total sense cuz the Yeah, it didn't make total sense cuz the Yeah, it didn't make total sense cuz the 190 was in my 190 was in my 190 was in my in my opinion a the better way to go. in my opinion a the better way to go. in my opinion a the better way to go. But I mean apart from the fact that the But I mean apart from the fact that the But I mean apart from the fact that the Battle of Britain was just a not not a Battle of Britain was just a not not a Battle of Britain was just a not not a wise strategic decision uh wise strategic decision uh wise strategic decision uh if you are going to do that you should if you are going to do that you should if you are going to do that you should you definitely you definitely you definitely have long long range fighters that have have long long range fighters that have have long long range fighters that have good dwell dwell capability and with good dwell dwell capability and with good dwell dwell capability and with drop tanks and that kind of thing. But drop tanks and that kind of thing. But drop tanks and that kind of thing. But it was just it was just a pointless it was just it was just a pointless it was just it was just a pointless I don't I don't I don't it's just like such a such an odd thing it's just like such a such an odd thing it's just like such a such an odd thing to do cuz it strategically Battle of to do cuz it strategically Battle of to do cuz it strategically Battle of Britain just I think had had uh Britain just I think had had uh Britain just I think had had uh you know not quite 0% chance of success you know not quite 0% chance of success you know not quite 0% chance of success but pretty close.

but pretty close. but pretty close. That's why strategy trumps tactics for That's why strategy trumps tactics for That's why strategy trumps tactics for sure. sure. sure. Yeah. Um so so I have a Star Trek Yeah. Um so so I have a Star Trek Yeah. Um so so I have a Star Trek episode in mind that I want to involve episode in mind that I want to involve episode in mind that I want to involve you in. Um if I take you back to one of you in. Um if I take you back to one of you in. Um if I take you back to one of these engineering rooms whether it's in these engineering rooms whether it's in these engineering rooms whether it's in London or in Washington it wouldn't be London or in Washington it wouldn't be London or in Washington it wouldn't be in Washington probably be in Southern in Washington probably be in Southern in Washington probably be in Southern California someplace like that. But take California someplace like that. But take California someplace like that. But take you to one of the Allied aircraft you to one of the Allied aircraft you to one of the Allied aircraft engineering rooms and just say okay Elon engineering rooms and just say okay Elon engineering rooms and just say okay Elon you're working with whatever those you're working with whatever those you're working with whatever those people have to work with. What's the people have to work with. What's the people have to work with. What's the what's the easiest quickest thing that what's the easiest quickest thing that what's the easiest quickest thing that you can suggest to them that they can do you can suggest to them that they can do you can suggest to them that they can do that will make a difference? In other that will make a difference? In other that will make a difference? In other words you can't do anything too words you can't do anything too words you can't do anything too sophisticated. They can't get from here sophisticated. They can't get from here sophisticated. They can't get from here to there but you could say something to there but you could say something to there but you could say something like you know you guys are missing like you know you guys are missing like you know you guys are missing something really obvious here that something really obvious here that something really obvious here that you'll discover five years from now. I you'll discover five years from now. I you'll discover five years from now. I mean is there anything right away that mean is there anything right away that mean is there anything right away that you look and you just go if they'd only you look and you just go if they'd only you look and you just go if they'd only done this sooner or something like that? done this sooner or something like that? done this sooner or something like that? Uh well nuclear bombs. Uh well nuclear bombs. Uh well nuclear bombs. Well well but but but a perfect but Well well but but but a perfect but Well well but but but a perfect but that's a perfect example of what that's a perfect example of what that's a perfect example of what wouldn't work in this question because wouldn't work in this question because wouldn't work in this question because nobody would have known but there might nobody would have known but there might nobody would have known but there might have been some I didn't know if there have been some I didn't know if there have been some I didn't know if there was some little thing that they weren't was some little thing that they weren't was some little thing that they weren't doing with aircraft that they would do doing with aircraft that they would do doing with aircraft that they would do later that would have made a huge later that would have made a huge later that would have made a huge difference bang for the buck wise. But difference bang for the buck wise. But difference bang for the buck wise. But now you get into nuclear weapons so now you get into nuclear weapons so now you get into nuclear weapons so let's talk a little about that cuz I let's talk a little about that cuz I let's talk a little about that cuz I Well we could we could try to we could Well we could we could try to we could Well we could we could try to we could try to answer the try to answer the try to answer the well I appreciate you Was there well I appreciate you Was there well I appreciate you Was there something simple? Yeah, something they something simple? Yeah, something they something simple? Yeah, something they were missing? You know I never were missing? You know I never were missing? You know I never understood why they didn't replace the understood why they didn't replace the understood why they didn't replace the Sherman. It seemed like there was time Sherman. It seemed like there was time Sherman. It seemed like there was time to iterate on that and come up with to iterate on that and come up with to iterate on that and come up with something better.

something better. something better. Well they did with the Pershing but it Well they did with the Pershing but it Well they did with the Pershing but it was just really really like last couple was just really really like last couple was just really really like last couple of months of the war. of months of the war. of months of the war. I don't know it I never I never delved I don't know it I never I never delved I don't know it I never I never delved into this but it seemed like the the into this but it seemed like the the into this but it seemed like the the Shermans just had a terrible time and Shermans just had a terrible time and Shermans just had a terrible time and and iterating on that faster where you and iterating on that faster where you and iterating on that faster where you maybe they had all the energy going to maybe they had all the energy going to maybe they had all the energy going to the fighters. I don't I don't know it the fighters. I don't I don't know it the fighters. I don't I don't know it just always seemed odd to me. just always seemed odd to me. just always seemed odd to me. Well we were talking about this earlier. Well we were talking about this earlier. Well we were talking about this earlier. It was a little bit about the is it It was a little bit about the is it It was a little bit about the is it worth retooling the production lines for worth retooling the production lines for worth retooling the production lines for a new a new version or would it be just a new a new version or would it be just a new a new version or would it be just better to just keep cranking out the old better to just keep cranking out the old better to just keep cranking out the old versions? And I was I remember somebody versions? And I was I remember somebody versions? And I was I remember somebody telling me he says yes yes yes yes yes telling me he says yes yes yes yes yes telling me he says yes yes yes yes yes you'd rather have a Tiger II tank for you'd rather have a Tiger II tank for you'd rather have a Tiger II tank for sure but if you've got 25 times as many sure but if you've got 25 times as many sure but if you've got 25 times as many Shermans wouldn't you rather just have a Shermans wouldn't you rather just have a Shermans wouldn't you rather just have a tank sometimes versus no tank? And so I tank sometimes versus no tank? And so I tank sometimes versus no tank? And so I absolutely I mean as you know as a guy absolutely I mean as you know as a guy absolutely I mean as you know as a guy who wargamed with the Americans forever who wargamed with the Americans forever who wargamed with the Americans forever nothing makes you angrier than to sit nothing makes you angrier than to sit nothing makes you angrier than to sit there with a bunch of Sherman tanks and there with a bunch of Sherman tanks and there with a bunch of Sherman tanks and be picked off by by German gunnery be picked off by by German gunnery be picked off by by German gunnery before you can even see them. before you can even see them. before you can even see them. But what but what one guy always said to But what but what one guy always said to But what but what one guy always said to me he goes well but you got to give me he goes well but you got to give me he goes well but you got to give yourself then 20 tanks for every one of yourself then 20 tanks for every one of yourself then 20 tanks for every one of theirs if you want to replicate what was theirs if you want to replicate what was theirs if you want to replicate what was going on in the war and then you've got going on in the war and then you've got going on in the war and then you've got to have what Elon was talking about to have what Elon was talking about to have what Elon was talking about earlier the ground attack aircraft and earlier the ground attack aircraft and earlier the ground attack aircraft and everything else. But you know what's everything else. But you know what's everything else. But you know what's crazy is that we ended up exporting crazy is that we ended up exporting crazy is that we ended up exporting those Sherman tanks as you both probably those Sherman tanks as you both probably those Sherman tanks as you both probably know well for many years they upgraded know well for many years they upgraded know well for many years they upgraded them for example in Israel with a with a them for example in Israel with a with a them for example in Israel with a with a better gun and these things were still better gun and these things were still better gun and these things were still being used in the early in the wars in being used in the early in the wars in being used in the early in the wars in Israel. I don't know how many they were Israel. I don't know how many they were Israel. I don't know how many they were called super Shermans. I don't know how called super Shermans. I don't know how called super Shermans. I don't know how many they were using in the 60 in the many they were using in the 60 in the many they were using in the 60 in the late 60s but they these things were late 60s but they these things were late 60s but they these things were still rolling around you know come off

still rolling around you know come off still rolling around you know come off the assembly lines in 43 and they're the assembly lines in 43 and they're the assembly lines in 43 and they're still using them 20 years later in some still using them 20 years later in some still using them 20 years later in some theaters. theaters. theaters. Okay, that's Okay, that's Okay, that's I I wouldn't say that's my I I wouldn't say that's my I I wouldn't say that's my recommendation. I you have to be I think recommendation. I you have to be I think recommendation. I you have to be I think pretty desperate to be using a Sherman pretty desperate to be using a Sherman pretty desperate to be using a Sherman 20 years later but yeah I I mean 20 years later but yeah I I mean 20 years later but yeah I I mean if if I if I was strategically against if if I if I was strategically against if if I if I was strategically against um um um you know a Tiger tank or something like you know a Tiger tank or something like you know a Tiger tank or something like that in in in World War and I had that in in in World War and I had that in in in World War and I had Shermans my strategy would be to just Shermans my strategy would be to just Shermans my strategy would be to just run around in a circle drive around in a run around in a circle drive around in a run around in a circle drive around in a circle until the Sherman until until the circle until the Sherman until until the circle until the Sherman until until the Tiger breaks down or runs out of fuel. Tiger breaks down or runs out of fuel. Tiger breaks down or runs out of fuel. Usually they just and usually Elon they Usually they just and usually Elon they Usually they just and usually Elon they just parked them in some wonderful zone just parked them in some wonderful zone just parked them in some wonderful zone and let them but you know what that's and let them but you know what that's and let them but you know what that's what as as my old friend used to say what as as my old friend used to say what as as my old friend used to say that's what artillery's for. Yeah, no that's what artillery's for. Yeah, no that's what artillery's for. Yeah, no they're big I mean it was an incredible they're big I mean it was an incredible they're big I mean it was an incredible tank Tiger but it used a lot of tank Tiger but it used a lot of tank Tiger but it used a lot of a lot of fuel and the reliability was a lot of fuel and the reliability was a lot of fuel and the reliability was not great. It was heavy it was heavy not great. It was heavy it was heavy not great. It was heavy it was heavy heavy heavy. heavy heavy. heavy heavy. heavy and reliability was not great. heavy and reliability was not great. heavy and reliability was not great. that that that does show the yeah the that that that does show the yeah the that that that does show the yeah the complexity and the the like the lack of complexity and the the like the lack of complexity and the the like the lack of parts and interchangeability and the parts and interchangeability and the parts and interchangeability and the like they had so many different flavors like they had so many different flavors like they had so many different flavors that they couldn't service them and keep that they couldn't service them and keep that they couldn't service them and keep them running. So clearly the the single them running. So clearly the the single them running. So clearly the the single lots of the single tank has lots of lots of the single tank has lots of lots of the single tank has lots of advantages. Yeah, I would just honestly advantages. Yeah, I would just honestly advantages. Yeah, I would just honestly that this one move just like that this one move just like that this one move just like just retreat and just retreat and just retreat and eventually that the Tiger's going to run eventually that the Tiger's going to run eventually that the Tiger's going to run out of fuel or break down out of fuel or break down out of fuel or break down and then it's a sitting duck. I had a and then it's a sitting duck. I had a and then it's a sitting duck. I had a professor who said you can compare these professor who said you can compare these professor who said you can compare these things to the car manufacturers for the things to the car manufacturers for the things to the car manufacturers for the various countries involved and they said various countries involved and they said various countries involved and they said that the the Germans built fantastic that the the Germans built fantastic that the the Germans built fantastic tanks and a lot of them were the same tanks and a lot of them were the same tanks and a lot of them were the same companies that build fantastic German

companies that build fantastic German companies that build fantastic German cars but they're really precision cars but they're really precision cars but they're really precision instruments and they require a lot of instruments and they require a lot of instruments and they require a lot of maintenance and you got to take care of maintenance and you got to take care of maintenance and you got to take care of them and them and them and and you know the the combat situations and you know the the combat situations and you know the the combat situations just don't allow for that. So while just don't allow for that. So while just don't allow for that. So while you'd much rather have a German tank you'd much rather have a German tank you'd much rather have a German tank than a Russian tank until they break than a Russian tank until they break than a Russian tank until they break down and then you got to have the right down and then you got to have the right down and then you got to have the right spare parts and the right the spare parts and the right the spare parts and the right the technicians and then you'd rather have technicians and then you'd rather have technicians and then you'd rather have something that's just more of a tin can something that's just more of a tin can something that's just more of a tin can that works on a couple of strings you that works on a couple of strings you that works on a couple of strings you know. know. know. Well I think you could have like Well I think you could have like Well I think you could have like arguably the best of both worlds is arguably the best of both worlds is arguably the best of both worlds is most of the best of both worlds is is most of the best of both worlds is is most of the best of both worlds is is possible. possible. possible. But it it it certainly is not a good But it it it certainly is not a good But it it it certainly is not a good idea to have you know 27 different or idea to have you know 27 different or idea to have you know 27 different or for argument's sake like different for argument's sake like different for argument's sake like different designs of a tank especially if if designs of a tank especially if if designs of a tank especially if if you're on the on the Eastern Front and a you're on the on the Eastern Front and a you're on the on the Eastern Front and a zillion miles from where the spare parts zillion miles from where the spare parts zillion miles from where the spare parts are. are. are. This is this is really unwise um cuz you This is this is really unwise um cuz you This is this is really unwise um cuz you know know know you can get stuck because of one you you can get stuck because of one you you can get stuck because of one you know know know you blew a little valve in the engine you blew a little valve in the engine you blew a little valve in the engine and now okay now you're stuck and now okay now you're stuck and now okay now you're stuck 5,000 miles from where the spare part 5,000 miles from where the spare part 5,000 miles from where the spare part is. is. is. Like wait a second. Like wait a second. Like wait a second. And the Allies are bombing your ball And the Allies are bombing your ball And the Allies are bombing your ball bearing plants and all that sort of bearing plants and all that sort of bearing plants and all that sort of stuff.

stuff. stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So So So you you definitely want like field you you definitely want like field you you definitely want like field replaceable field repairable situations. replaceable field repairable situations. replaceable field repairable situations. Uh but it it isn't you know in terms of Uh but it it isn't you know in terms of Uh but it it isn't you know in terms of like excellence in operation it it is like excellence in operation it it is like excellence in operation it it is if you look at World War II fighter if you look at World War II fighter if you look at World War II fighter races on on Wikipedia and see how long races on on Wikipedia and see how long races on on Wikipedia and see how long you have to scroll before you find you have to scroll before you find you have to scroll before you find someone that isn't German. someone that isn't German. someone that isn't German. Have you Have you done that? Yes but I Have you Have you done that? Yes but I Have you Have you done that? Yes but I would argue that there's other things would argue that there's other things would argue that there's other things going into it. So tell me what you think going into it. So tell me what you think going into it. So tell me what you think is going into that number. is going into that number. is going into that number. Um okay. What accounts for that in your Um okay. What accounts for that in your Um okay. What accounts for that in your mind? mind? mind? Um well okay so part part of it is that Um well okay so part part of it is that Um well okay so part part of it is that the the the in the beginning the the Russian planes in the beginning the the Russian planes in the beginning the the Russian planes were were not very good. And so, uh Or were were not very good. And so, uh Or were were not very good. And so, uh Or the Polish planes, or the French planes, the Polish planes, or the French planes, the Polish planes, or the French planes, or you know, keep going, right? The or you know, keep going, right? The or you know, keep going, right? The Czech planes. Czech planes. Czech planes. Yeah. So, Yeah. So, Yeah. So, I mean, there's a there's a few cases I mean, there's a there's a few cases I mean, there's a there's a few cases where, um, where, um, where, um, uh, German pilots were fighting Battle uh, German pilots were fighting Battle uh, German pilots were fighting Battle of Britain, of Britain, of Britain, um, and would have like, you know, um, um, and would have like, you know, um, um, and would have like, you know, um, like one of them actually had had zero like one of them actually had had zero like one of them actually had had zero zero kills in the Battle of Britain, and zero kills in the Battle of Britain, and zero kills in the Battle of Britain, and and he was one of the top three or top and he was one of the top three or top and he was one of the top three or top five German aces, uh, and had 200 five German aces, uh, and had 200 five German aces, uh, and had 200 some some crazy number of kills, um, uh, some some crazy number of kills, um, uh, some some crazy number of kills, um, uh, outside of Battle Britain, mostly on the outside of Battle Britain, mostly on the outside of Battle Britain, mostly on the Eastern Front.

Eastern Front. Eastern Front. Um, Um, Um, so, so, so, you know, I think yeah, it it's the the you know, I think yeah, it it's the the you know, I think yeah, it it's the the early planes, uh, early planes, uh, early planes, uh, uh, that Russia had were or Soviet had uh, that Russia had were or Soviet had uh, that Russia had were or Soviet had were were not very good. And so, you were were not very good. And so, you were were not very good. And so, you could really take them out, could really take them out, could really take them out, um, very easily. Uh, as as the war um, very easily. Uh, as as the war um, very easily. Uh, as as the war progressed, the Soviet planes obviously progressed, the Soviet planes obviously progressed, the Soviet planes obviously did get much much better. And and, uh, did get much much better. And and, uh, did get much much better. And and, uh, and and the Soviets had air superiority and and the Soviets had air superiority and and the Soviets had air superiority at the end. at the end. at the end. I I'll tell you that one of the theories I I'll tell you that one of the theories I I'll tell you that one of the theories I like, and I can't prove it, and I'm I like, and I can't prove it, and I'm I like, and I can't prove it, and I'm not smart enough to to delve into it too not smart enough to to delve into it too not smart enough to to delve into it too deeply, but I love the concept. It's deeply, but I love the concept. It's deeply, but I love the concept. It's called it's the the idea of the called it's the the idea of the called it's the the idea of the non-firer, and the idea that there are non-firer, and the idea that there are non-firer, and the idea that there are most most of the people in war don't most most of the people in war don't most most of the people in war don't even fire their weapons, and the the even fire their weapons, and the the even fire their weapons, and the the damage is done inordinately by the damage is done inordinately by the damage is done inordinately by the people who do. And the specific examples people who do. And the specific examples people who do. And the specific examples that the author that I was reading gave, that the author that I was reading gave, that the author that I was reading gave, where he said it was most pronounced, where he said it was most pronounced, where he said it was most pronounced, was in the air war among fighter pilots. was in the air war among fighter pilots. was in the air war among fighter pilots. And he was talking about aces. And he And he was talking about aces. And he And he was talking about aces. And he said that the aces he said most people said that the aces he said most people said that the aces he said most people would get up in the air and fly around would get up in the air and fly around would get up in the air and fly around and never shoot at anybody. But he and never shoot at anybody. But he and never shoot at anybody. But he almost just he almost described the almost just he almost described the almost just he almost described the people who were aces as as true killers, people who were aces as as true killers, people who were aces as as true killers, and they went out there and caused the and they went out there and caused the and they went out there and caused the majority of the damage on both sides.

majority of the damage on both sides. majority of the damage on both sides. Um, does that does that ring I was Um, does that does that ring I was Um, does that does that ring I was trying to figure out cuz, you know, trying to figure out cuz, you know, trying to figure out cuz, you know, we're talking so much about engineering we're talking so much about engineering we're talking so much about engineering and designs and those kinds of things, and designs and those kinds of things, and designs and those kinds of things, which seems to take out the human which seems to take out the human which seems to take out the human element. I grew up next door to a element. I grew up next door to a element. I grew up next door to a fighter pilot, and and he design he was fighter pilot, and and he design he was fighter pilot, and and he design he was trying to design an aircraft anyway his trying to design an aircraft anyway his trying to design an aircraft anyway his whole life in the 1970s after he retired whole life in the 1970s after he retired whole life in the 1970s after he retired uh, from Lockheed. But he would talk to uh, from Lockheed. But he would talk to uh, from Lockheed. But he would talk to me so much about pilot pilot pilot skill me so much about pilot pilot pilot skill me so much about pilot pilot pilot skill skill skill training training training. skill skill training training training. skill skill training training training. How how does one I mean, would you How how does one I mean, would you How how does one I mean, would you rather be the better pilot in the worst rather be the better pilot in the worst rather be the better pilot in the worst plane or the worst pilot in the better plane or the worst pilot in the better plane or the worst pilot in the better plane? plane? plane? Um, I mean, to be totally frank, the I Um, I mean, to be totally frank, the I Um, I mean, to be totally frank, the I would say the worst pilot in the better would say the worst pilot in the better would say the worst pilot in the better plane. plane. plane. But But But cuz bear in mind also worst plane means cuz bear in mind also worst plane means cuz bear in mind also worst plane means this thing might fall out of the sky for this thing might fall out of the sky for this thing might fall out of the sky for quick reason. quick reason. quick reason. Yes, how much worse? How much worse? Yes, how much worse? How much worse? Yes, how much worse? How much worse? Yes. Yes. Yes. Biplane versus, uh, Biplane versus, uh, Biplane versus, uh, versus jet fighter, yes. versus jet fighter, yes. versus jet fighter, yes. Especially in the Pacific. I mean, Especially in the Pacific. I mean, Especially in the Pacific. I mean, you're I mean, the Pacific is very big, you're I mean, the Pacific is very big, you're I mean, the Pacific is very big, and you're flying long-range mission in and you're flying long-range mission in and you're flying long-range mission in the Pacific, and you your plane is the Pacific, and you your plane is the Pacific, and you your plane is actually in trouble, actually in trouble, actually in trouble, so, I mean, they're probably never going so, I mean, they're probably never going so, I mean, they're probably never going to see you again. So, to see you again. So, to see you again. So, No, this was your P-38 extra engine No, this was your P-38 extra engine No, this was your P-38 extra engine argument right there. I was in the argument right there. I was in the argument right there. I was in the Pacific, I'm definitely pleased with the Pacific, I'm definitely pleased with the Pacific, I'm definitely pleased with the P-38. That would be my favorite favorite P-38. That would be my favorite favorite P-38. That would be my favorite favorite by far, by far, by far, um, just cuz it least does the um, just cuz it least does the um, just cuz it least does the probability of coming back alive from probability of coming back alive from probability of coming back alive from engine trouble is super is is way engine trouble is super is is way engine trouble is super is is way better. Um, better. Um, better. Um, uh, the P-38 I I I would have, you know, uh, the P-38 I I I would have, you know, uh, the P-38 I I I would have, you know, I I think, um, I I think, um, I I think, um, you know, obviously this is like some you know, obviously this is like some you know, obviously this is like some serious arm chair arm chair serious arm chair arm chair serious arm chair arm chair quarterbacking here, but the quarterbacking here, but the quarterbacking here, but the I would have taken a P-38 and I and I would have taken a P-38 and I and I would have taken a P-38 and I and actually actually actually double down on that one, like I said, double down on that one, like I said, double down on that one, like I said, given it the turbo supercharged Merlins,

given it the turbo supercharged Merlins, given it the turbo supercharged Merlins, but double the power that plane, double but double the power that plane, double but double the power that plane, double it. And improve the fuel the the fuel it. And improve the fuel the the fuel it. And improve the fuel the the fuel efficiency and allow it to fly super efficiency and allow it to fly super efficiency and allow it to fly super high. There was certain improvements high. There was certain improvements high. There was certain improvements needed to the airframe as well, to make needed to the airframe as well, to make needed to the airframe as well, to make it more maneuverable. It had some some it more maneuverable. It had some some it more maneuverable. It had some some issues, issues, issues, um, I think in in dives and rolls. But um, I think in in dives and rolls. But um, I think in in dives and rolls. But you it's easy to you to upgrade the you it's easy to you to upgrade the you it's easy to you to upgrade the the, uh, control surfaces. Not not that the, uh, control surfaces. Not not that the, uh, control surfaces. Not not that hard. hard. hard. And and Didn't they do some of that with And and Didn't they do some of that with And and Didn't they do some of that with the P-61, though? I mean, didn't they do the P-61, though? I mean, didn't they do the P-61, though? I mean, didn't they do some of that? some of that? some of that? Didn't they do some of that with the the Didn't they do some of that with the the Didn't they do some of that with the the P-61 Black Widow? I mean, wasn't that P-61 Black Widow? I mean, wasn't that P-61 Black Widow? I mean, wasn't that sort of a a a super P-38? Yeah, I think sort of a a a super P-38? Yeah, I think sort of a a a super P-38? Yeah, I think that didn't get There was late. that didn't get There was late. that didn't get There was late. But yeah, that's that's the kind of that But yeah, that's that's the kind of that But yeah, that's that's the kind of that that that that that that that basically just, uh, basically just, uh, basically just, uh, major uprev of the the P-38, I think, major uprev of the the P-38, I think, major uprev of the the P-38, I think, would have been the the would have been the the would have been the the Yeah, the Black Widow is basically Yeah, the Black Widow is basically Yeah, the Black Widow is basically basically like that. basically like that. basically like that. I uh yeah. I uh yeah. I uh yeah. it was wasn't it I think it might have it was wasn't it I think it might have it was wasn't it I think it might have had a radial air-cooled, so kind of a had a radial air-cooled, so kind of a had a radial air-cooled, so kind of a different different different kind of a different thing, but yeah, the kind of a different thing, but yeah, the kind of a different thing, but yeah, the double boom with the double engine. And double boom with the double engine. And double boom with the double engine. And I don't know anything about the I don't know anything about the I don't know anything about the supercharger or any of its power or any supercharger or any of its power or any supercharger or any of its power or any of those kind of things. I know they of those kind of things. I know they of those kind of things. I know they used it for a night fighter, I think.

used it for a night fighter, I think. used it for a night fighter, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's another element here I think there's another element here I think there's another element here which might be interesting, which is which might be interesting, which is which might be interesting, which is uh, it's the pilots obviously have a lot uh, it's the pilots obviously have a lot uh, it's the pilots obviously have a lot of respect for the pilots. My great of respect for the pilots. My great of respect for the pilots. My great Uncle Bill Overstreet was a with the Uncle Bill Overstreet was a with the Uncle Bill Overstreet was a with the 357th Fighter Group flying Mustangs and 357th Fighter Group flying Mustangs and 357th Fighter Group flying Mustangs and had a lot of great stories. But it's had a lot of great stories. But it's had a lot of great stories. But it's also interesting to look at the also interesting to look at the also interesting to look at the engineers and like the you know, the engineers and like the you know, the engineers and like the you know, the Mustang was designed by a a German Mustang was designed by a a German Mustang was designed by a a German immigrant to the US. Imagine if he'd immigrant to the US. Imagine if he'd immigrant to the US. Imagine if he'd been over there working on German been over there working on German been over there working on German designs. And so, you like the P-38 was designs. And so, you like the P-38 was designs. And so, you like the P-38 was I think Kelly Johnson had a role in it I think Kelly Johnson had a role in it I think Kelly Johnson had a role in it who went on to do the SR, you know, But who went on to do the SR, you know, But who went on to do the SR, you know, But the Skunk Works. Skunk Works. the Skunk Works. Skunk Works. the Skunk Works. Skunk Works. So, it's also interesting to look at the So, it's also interesting to look at the So, it's also interesting to look at the folks driving the engineering design and folks driving the engineering design and folks driving the engineering design and the the in the rate of innovation, like the the in the rate of innovation, like the the in the rate of innovation, like you were talking about. And like the the you were talking about. And like the the you were talking about. And like the the higher the higher innovation rates, are higher the higher innovation rates, are higher the higher innovation rates, are those driven by a few key folks? To I I those driven by a few key folks? To I I those driven by a few key folks? To I I don't know, but it's an interesting don't know, but it's an interesting don't know, but it's an interesting thing to thing to thing to look at. look at. look at. You know what? But Billy, you bring up You know what? But Billy, you bring up You know what? But Billy, you bring up something now and and maybe it's the something now and and maybe it's the something now and and maybe it's the obvious jumping off point from what we obvious jumping off point from what we obvious jumping off point from what we were just talking about, where you and I were just talking about, where you and I were just talking about, where you and I are admiring the skill of the pilots so are admiring the skill of the pilots so are admiring the skill of the pilots so much. I feel like we're entering the era much. I feel like we're entering the era much. I feel like we're entering the era of the pilotless plane. I mean, I was I of the pilotless plane. I mean, I was I of the pilotless plane. I mean, I was I was doing some heavy-duty research was doing some heavy-duty research was doing some heavy-duty research trying to understand the impact of the trying to understand the impact of the trying to understand the impact of the drone warfare happening over the drone warfare happening over the drone warfare happening over the Nagorno-Karabakh area of the Nagorno-Karabakh area of the Nagorno-Karabakh area of the Armenian-Azerbaijani Armenian-Azerbaijani Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict that happened recently, and it conflict that happened recently, and it conflict that happened recently, and it seems it seems the logical next step.

seems it seems the logical next step. seems it seems the logical next step. And you know, Elon, you and I have And you know, Elon, you and I have And you know, Elon, you and I have talked about how the First World War was talked about how the First World War was talked about how the First World War was so so particularly deadly because you so so particularly deadly because you so so particularly deadly because you had all those years of development, but had all those years of development, but had all those years of development, but without practical testing to see how without practical testing to see how without practical testing to see how major powers' new equipment would all major powers' new equipment would all major powers' new equipment would all work. And then you you know, you want to work. And then you you know, you want to work. And then you you know, you want to at least them on each other. I feel like at least them on each other. I feel like at least them on each other. I feel like the drones over Armenia are the same the drones over Armenia are the same the drones over Armenia are the same kind of thing, where we haven't had a kind of thing, where we haven't had a kind of thing, where we haven't had a major war between major powers where major war between major powers where major war between major powers where both sides are using cutting-edge drone both sides are using cutting-edge drone both sides are using cutting-edge drone technology. And then we get into that technology. And then we get into that technology. And then we get into that dynamic we've talked about, right? The dynamic we've talked about, right? The dynamic we've talked about, right? The continually upgrading, you know, the continually upgrading, you know, the continually upgrading, you know, the variant G, variant H, variant um, what variant G, variant H, variant um, what variant G, variant H, variant um, what do you think about the future of the do you think about the future of the do you think about the future of the whole drone warfare um, when it comes to whole drone warfare um, when it comes to whole drone warfare um, when it comes to and maybe not just aircraft, but I mean, and maybe not just aircraft, but I mean, and maybe not just aircraft, but I mean, one could make a case that they're one could make a case that they're one could make a case that they're working on it for armored vehicles on working on it for armored vehicles on working on it for armored vehicles on land, too. And ships. land, too. And ships. land, too. And ships. Yeah, I mean, the Yeah, I mean, the Yeah, I mean, the I mean, it's interesting future, I mean, it's interesting future, I mean, it's interesting future, um, um, um, there's no question like if if you there's no question like if if you there's no question like if if you wanted to have a more effective wanted to have a more effective wanted to have a more effective fighter, bomber, tank, whatever the case fighter, bomber, tank, whatever the case fighter, bomber, tank, whatever the case may be, may be, may be, the best thing to do is take the pilot the best thing to do is take the pilot the best thing to do is take the pilot out of it at this point. Um, out of it at this point. Um, out of it at this point. Um, We're already there, you think? We're already there, you think? We're already there, you think? Yeah, um, Yeah, um, Yeah, um, You'd you'd rather have a computer doing You'd you'd rather have a computer doing You'd you'd rather have a computer doing it than a human being in there.

it than a human being in there. it than a human being in there. At this point already. So, Bobby At this point already. So, Bobby At this point already. So, Bobby Fischer's losing to the computer already Fischer's losing to the computer already Fischer's losing to the computer already in the chess game. We're losing, you in the chess game. We're losing, you in the chess game. We're losing, you know, you Okay, that's it. But see, to know, you Okay, that's it. But see, to know, you Okay, that's it. But see, to me right there, that's fascinating. Uh, me right there, that's fascinating. Uh, me right there, that's fascinating. Uh, yeah, I mean, it's not like I just want yeah, I mean, it's not like I just want yeah, I mean, it's not like I just want to separate this out. It's not like I to separate this out. It's not like I to separate this out. It's not like I want the computers to drones to take want the computers to drones to take want the computers to drones to take over. But if you say like, over. But if you say like, over. But if you say like, if if you have a well-designed if if you have a well-designed if if you have a well-designed unmanned fighter or something like that, unmanned fighter or something like that, unmanned fighter or something like that, and uh, and uh, and uh, with with you know, with with you know, with with you know, basic AI, we're talking primitive AI, basic AI, we're talking primitive AI, basic AI, we're talking primitive AI, it's it's really going to crush the best it's it's really going to crush the best it's it's really going to crush the best human. It can go through super high-G human. It can go through super high-G human. It can go through super high-G turns. It can do things a human can't turns. It can do things a human can't turns. It can do things a human can't do, do, do, um, and not black out, you know, could um, and not black out, you know, could um, and not black out, you know, could do a 10-G like whatever the fuselage can do a 10-G like whatever the fuselage can do a 10-G like whatever the fuselage can handle, it can handle. handle, it can handle. handle, it can handle. And it would it has simultaneous And it would it has simultaneous And it would it has simultaneous awareness and processing of all the awareness and processing of all the awareness and processing of all the sensors. sensors. sensors. You know, like a guided missile is in You know, like a guided missile is in You know, like a guided missile is in some ways like like that, you know, what some ways like like that, you know, what some ways like like that, you know, what what is a guided missile sort of the what is a guided missile sort of the what is a guided missile sort of the computer it's computer-controlled, computer it's computer-controlled, computer it's computer-controlled, basically come a fuzzy plane. basically come a fuzzy plane. basically come a fuzzy plane. So, So, So, You're saying if you take the meat You're saying if you take the meat You're saying if you take the meat computer out of the cockpit, the computer out of the cockpit, the computer out of the cockpit, the performance of the mechanical systems performance of the mechanical systems performance of the mechanical systems left over are so superior.

left over are so superior. left over are so superior. Yeah. But so much Yeah. But so much Yeah. But so much of the plane is oriented towards of the plane is oriented towards of the plane is oriented towards keeping the pilot alive and allowing the keeping the pilot alive and allowing the keeping the pilot alive and allowing the plane pilot to interact with the the plane pilot to interact with the the plane pilot to interact with the the plane's computer systems. And modern plane's computer systems. And modern plane's computer systems. And modern fighter jets, it's fly-by-wire, so it's fighter jets, it's fly-by-wire, so it's fighter jets, it's fly-by-wire, so it's it's really you're you're just it's really you're you're just it's really you're you're just telling the computer what to do. telling the computer what to do. telling the computer what to do. But the that plane would get But the that plane would get But the that plane would get dramatically lighter, cheaper, faster, dramatically lighter, cheaper, faster, dramatically lighter, cheaper, faster, pretty much better in every way if it pretty much better in every way if it pretty much better in every way if it did not have a pilot in it. I I I want did not have a pilot in it. I I I want did not have a pilot in it. I I I want to emphasize I like flying planes, and I to emphasize I like flying planes, and I to emphasize I like flying planes, and I I'm a I'm a pilot personally. I'm a I'm a pilot personally. I'm a I'm a pilot personally. So, this is not like, So, this is not like, So, this is not like, you know, it's not some anti-pilot you know, it's not some anti-pilot you know, it's not some anti-pilot thing. It's just that This isn't the M-5 thing. It's just that This isn't the M-5 thing. It's just that This isn't the M-5 computer on Star Trek, and you're you're computer on Star Trek, and you're you're computer on Star Trek, and you're you're replacing Captain Kirk and everything. replacing Captain Kirk and everything. replacing Captain Kirk and everything. No, I mean, there's no question you want No, I mean, there's no question you want No, I mean, there's no question you want to have these you you want to have like to have these you you want to have like to have these you you want to have like the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, fire control, you know, so-called kill fire control, you know, so-called kill fire control, you know, so-called kill decisions still require human, I think. decisions still require human, I think. decisions still require human, I think. You know, we don't want we don't want You know, we don't want we don't want You know, we don't want we don't want computers to just we don't want computers to just we don't want computers to just we don't want Terminator here, you know. Terminator here, you know. Terminator here, you know. So, So, So, but but I think the reality is like if but but I think the reality is like if but but I think the reality is like if you if you've got you if you've got you if you've got a tank without humans or fighter without a tank without humans or fighter without a tank without humans or fighter without humans, humans, humans, it's going to win it's going to win it's going to win cuz it's going to have cuz it's going to have cuz it's going to have it doesn't have to go all the trouble of it doesn't have to go all the trouble of it doesn't have to go all the trouble of trying to keep the the humans, who are trying to keep the the humans, who are trying to keep the the humans, who are quite delicate and and and, uh, easily quite delicate and and and, uh, easily quite delicate and and and, uh, easily killed, alive.

killed, alive. killed, alive. It's very difficult to do that. Um, It's very difficult to do that. Um, It's very difficult to do that. Um, yeah. yeah. yeah. I'm curious what you might think, you I'm curious what you might think, you I'm curious what you might think, you know, you and I have talked about this know, you and I have talked about this know, you and I have talked about this also, the idea of, um, of of people also, the idea of, um, of of people also, the idea of, um, of of people trying to deal with technology or trying to deal with technology or trying to deal with technology or integrate or come up with systems and integrate or come up with systems and integrate or come up with systems and approaches for technology in approaches for technology in approaches for technology in circumstances where there's no way to circumstances where there's no way to circumstances where there's no way to train for it before the circumstance train for it before the circumstance train for it before the circumstance breaks out. So, uh, I had a conversation breaks out. So, uh, I had a conversation breaks out. So, uh, I had a conversation with a guy who's a First World War with a guy who's a First World War with a guy who's a First World War historian, and he's a big fan of General historian, and he's a big fan of General historian, and he's a big fan of General Douglas Haig, who gets called, uh, a Douglas Haig, who gets called, uh, a Douglas Haig, who gets called, uh, a butcher by some people. But the but the butcher by some people. But the but the butcher by some people. But the but the argument for the anti-butcher crowd is argument for the anti-butcher crowd is argument for the anti-butcher crowd is that he was in a situation where there's that he was in a situation where there's that he was in a situation where there's there he's he's in the learning curve, there he's he's in the learning curve, there he's he's in the learning curve, right? He's a cavalry commander from the right? He's a cavalry commander from the right? He's a cavalry commander from the late 19th century trying to figure out late 19th century trying to figure out late 19th century trying to figure out how to integrate aircraft with armored how to integrate aircraft with armored how to integrate aircraft with armored battleships with tanks on the field and battleships with tanks on the field and battleships with tanks on the field and all these kinds of things that are that all these kinds of things that are that all these kinds of things that are that are far beyond the world he grew up in. are far beyond the world he grew up in. are far beyond the world he grew up in. And this goes back to what we were And this goes back to what we were And this goes back to what we were talking about about how quickly the pace talking about about how quickly the pace talking about about how quickly the pace of change began to speed up. How do you of change began to speed up. How do you of change began to speed up. How do you think the generals and and by the way, think the generals and and by the way, think the generals and and by the way, they're they're a very interesting they're they're a very interesting they're they're a very interesting group, our modern-day generals in terms group, our modern-day generals in terms group, our modern-day generals in terms of continual learning and all that sort of continual learning and all that sort of continual learning and all that sort of stuff. How do you think they're going of stuff. How do you think they're going of stuff. How do you think they're going to do with all the new crap that's been to do with all the new crap that's been to do with all the new crap that's been developed since the Second World War developed since the Second World War developed since the Second World War when the last time major superpowers when the last time major superpowers when the last time major superpowers faced off? How do you think they're faced off? How do you think they're faced off? How do you think they're going to do integrating all these new going to do integrating all these new going to do integrating all these new systems against another power that also systems against another power that also systems against another power that also possesses all these new symptoms uh possesses all these new symptoms uh possesses all these new symptoms uh systems?

When both sides have drones, when both When both sides have drones, when both sides have computers, when both sides sides have computers, when both sides sides have computers, when both sides have uh the Gulf War technology that we have uh the Gulf War technology that we have uh the Gulf War technology that we were using. Yeah, so so the is were using. Yeah, so so the is were using. Yeah, so so the is interesting thing that happening. You interesting thing that happening. You interesting thing that happening. You know, so when when we I was like once we know, so when when we I was like once we know, so when when we I was like once we developed nukes, like wars between developed nukes, like wars between developed nukes, like wars between superpowers became a decision to destroy superpowers became a decision to destroy superpowers became a decision to destroy humanity or not. Or destroy humanity or not. Or destroy humanity or not. Or destroy civilization. civilization. civilization. You'd get some pushback on that from You'd get some pushback on that from You'd get some pushback on that from some military leaders, you would. No, some military leaders, you would. No, some military leaders, you would. No, but I mean it's it's just like the but I mean it's it's just like the but I mean it's it's just like the stakes are very high. Like you can't stakes are very high. Like you can't stakes are very high. Like you can't just go around using nukes uh without just go around using nukes uh without just go around using nukes uh without getting getting nuked yourself, getting getting nuked yourself, getting getting nuked yourself, basically. basically. basically. So so like in wars between super So so like in wars between super So so like in wars between super superpowers, like serious wars are were superpowers, like serious wars are were superpowers, like serious wars are were not going to happen because the it's it not going to happen because the it's it not going to happen because the it's it would just be mutually assured would just be mutually assured would just be mutually assured destruction. destruction. destruction. Uh at least there was a very there's a Uh at least there was a very there's a Uh at least there was a very there's a too much risk of of such a thing to too much risk of of such a thing to too much risk of of such a thing to have a superpower war. However, have a superpower war. However, have a superpower war. However, drones now move that completely in the drones now move that completely in the drones now move that completely in the other direction. Now you can have a other direction. Now you can have a other direction. Now you can have a drone war drone war drone war where where where very few people die or maybe no one dies very few people die or maybe no one dies very few people die or maybe no one dies in in a drone war and whoever's drones in in a drone war and whoever's drones in in a drone war and whoever's drones are successful, are successful, are successful, they they won the battle. they they won the battle. they they won the battle. And and this may actually reduce the And and this may actually reduce the And and this may actually reduce the the risk of of a war.

the risk of of a war. the risk of of a war. Or or sorry, reduce reduce the risk of Or or sorry, reduce reduce the risk of Or or sorry, reduce reduce the risk of reduce the penalty of a war and increase reduce the penalty of a war and increase reduce the penalty of a war and increase the risk of having any war. the risk of having any war. the risk of having any war. Cuz it it's it's you know, it's Cuz it it's it's you know, it's Cuz it it's it's you know, it's it ends up being battle bots, you know, it ends up being battle bots, you know, it ends up being battle bots, you know, and and so and and so and and so that could be one of the things that that could be one of the things that that could be one of the things that happens is that it's just it's it's it's happens is that it's just it's it's it's happens is that it's just it's it's it's now it's now now the stakes are going now it's now now the stakes are going now it's now now the stakes are going from super high with nukes to actually from super high with nukes to actually from super high with nukes to actually not even having not even having not even having human casualties human casualties human casualties could result in potentially more wars could result in potentially more wars could result in potentially more wars down the road. down the road. down the road. But wars But wars But wars Yeah, I do I think it opens up the door. Yeah, I do I think it opens up the door. Yeah, I do I think it opens up the door. Yes. Yes. Yes. So let me ask you then cuz something So let me ask you then cuz something So let me ask you then cuz something happened this last couple of weeks uh in happened this last couple of weeks uh in happened this last couple of weeks uh in space. You uh space. You uh space. You uh um and it had and you could have to um and it had and you could have to um and it had and you could have to correct me on this but had to do with a correct me on this but had to do with a correct me on this but had to do with a uh the the the the Russians. I always uh the the the the Russians. I always uh the the the the Russians. I always want to call them the Soviets. This is want to call them the Soviets. This is want to call them the Soviets. This is how old I am now. Uh it's the it's the how old I am now. Uh it's the it's the how old I am now. Uh it's the it's the Russians shooting I believe a missile Russians shooting I believe a missile Russians shooting I believe a missile into space and blowing up something and into space and blowing up something and into space and blowing up something and affecting satellites. And all I could affecting satellites. And all I could affecting satellites. And all I could think about when I was reading it was think about when I was reading it was think about when I was reading it was this is the this is going to be looked this is the this is going to be looked this is the this is going to be looked back in the history books as the very back in the history books as the very back in the history books as the very early stages of the first um I don't early stages of the first um I don't early stages of the first um I don't even know what you would call it. Uh we even know what you would call it. Uh we even know what you would call it. Uh we called it the the peaceful version of called it the the peaceful version of called it the the peaceful version of the the space race. I don't know what the the space race. I don't know what the the space race. I don't know what you call this but but I'd be interested you call this but but I'd be interested you call this but but I'd be interested in your take on uh what this means and I in your take on uh what this means and I in your take on uh what this means and I mean um and what a space war would look mean um and what a space war would look mean um and what a space war would look like and if something like that is a like and if something like that is a like and if something like that is a near future or long future thing. I near future or long future thing. I near future or long future thing. I mean, can you give us a little insight mean, can you give us a little insight mean, can you give us a little insight from come you're dealing with this every from come you're dealing with this every from come you're dealing with this every day. What was your reaction to that um day. What was your reaction to that um day. What was your reaction to that um that incident? Well, we're somewhat that incident? Well, we're somewhat that incident? Well, we're somewhat surprised to see that happen. I think a surprised to see that happen. I think a surprised to see that happen. I think a lot of people in Russia were surprised lot of people in Russia were surprised lot of people in Russia were surprised to see it happen. But it sounds a bit it to see it happen. But it sounds a bit it to see it happen. But it sounds a bit it was it was something that was

was it was something that was was it was something that was just on the military side and Russian just on the military side and Russian just on the military side and Russian civil space wasn't even aware of it. civil space wasn't even aware of it. civil space wasn't even aware of it. So So So um I I I do you know, think that is uh um I I I do you know, think that is uh um I I I do you know, think that is uh that was that was not not not great that was that was not not not great that was that was not not not great for Russia to do that. Not great. for Russia to do that. Not great. for Russia to do that. Not great. Not great. Not great. Not great. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Cuz there's now a bunch of debris that's Cuz there's now a bunch of debris that's Cuz there's now a bunch of debris that's going to take a a while to deal with. going to take a a while to deal with. going to take a a while to deal with. And some of that debris potentially puts And some of that debris potentially puts And some of that debris potentially puts the space station in trouble which has the space station in trouble which has the space station in trouble which has Russians on it. So Russians on it. So Russians on it. So I think that's uh that was a regrettable I think that's uh that was a regrettable I think that's uh that was a regrettable incident. But incident. But incident. But you know, you know, you know, it's clearly it's clearly it's clearly you know, at least you know, at least you know, at least uh Russia, China, and the US uh Russia, China, and the US uh Russia, China, and the US have have have demonstrated anti-satellite weapons. demonstrated anti-satellite weapons. demonstrated anti-satellite weapons. The the US actually has extremely good The the US actually has extremely good The the US actually has extremely good anti-satellite weapons. A demonstration anti-satellite weapons. A demonstration anti-satellite weapons. A demonstration that was done that was done that was done a few years ago actually was a a US the a few years ago actually was a a US the a few years ago actually was a a US the US US US deorbited a satellite and while the deorbited a satellite and while the deorbited a satellite and while the satellite was deorbiting satellite was deorbiting satellite was deorbiting as it's coming back into the atmosphere, as it's coming back into the atmosphere, as it's coming back into the atmosphere, fired anti-satellite missile at the fired anti-satellite missile at the fired anti-satellite missile at the satellite and and went and hit the fuel satellite and and went and hit the fuel satellite and and went and hit the fuel tank of the satellite while it was tank of the satellite while it was tank of the satellite while it was deorbiting.

deorbiting. deorbiting. You know, this is sort of like the you You know, this is sort of like the you You know, this is sort of like the you know, Western equivalent of like know, Western equivalent of like know, Western equivalent of like flipping the the silver dollar in the flipping the the silver dollar in the flipping the the silver dollar in the air, taking out the six gun and going air, taking out the six gun and going air, taking out the six gun and going bam, shooting the the dollar a hole bam, shooting the the dollar a hole bam, shooting the the dollar a hole through the dollar. through the dollar. through the dollar. So that was cool. Um but but that was So that was cool. Um but but that was So that was cool. Um but but that was like the satellite was that was like the satellite was that was like the satellite was that was deorbiting so it didn't it caused over a deorbiting so it didn't it caused over a deorbiting so it didn't it caused over a debris. debris. debris. Um Um Um yeah, and this this is all public yeah, and this this is all public yeah, and this this is all public information so information so information so look it up on on the internet. look it up on on the internet. look it up on on the internet. There's also direct directed energy There's also direct directed energy There's also direct directed energy weapons which is basically lasers and weapons which is basically lasers and weapons which is basically lasers and microwave lasers, masers. microwave lasers, masers. microwave lasers, masers. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um so it basically so it basically so it basically So is that the first thing that happens So is that the first thing that happens So is that the first thing that happens Elon in the next war? Is the first thing Elon in the next war? Is the first thing Elon in the next war? Is the first thing that the satellites get blinded and that the satellites get blinded and that the satellites get blinded and knocked out? I mean, is that if if if knocked out? I mean, is that if if if knocked out? I mean, is that if if if you're if you're war gaming the next you're if you're war gaming the next you're if you're war gaming the next major superpower war and this goes back major superpower war and this goes back major superpower war and this goes back to what you and I were saying earlier in to what you and I were saying earlier in to what you and I were saying earlier in this conversation about how you how you this conversation about how you how you this conversation about how you how you compensate for an opponent that's compensate for an opponent that's compensate for an opponent that's technologically superior to you. I mean, technologically superior to you. I mean, technologically superior to you. I mean, if if if we're the superior higher if if if we're the superior higher if if if we're the superior higher ground satellite country and someone ground satellite country and someone ground satellite country and someone else can knock out our satellites, isn't else can knock out our satellites, isn't else can knock out our satellites, isn't that a great equalizer? Um is that the that a great equalizer? Um is that the that a great equalizer? Um is that the first step in the next in World War III first step in the next in World War III first step in the next in World War III is the knocking out of the satellites?

is the knocking out of the satellites? is the knocking out of the satellites? Man, true World War III I sure hope we Man, true World War III I sure hope we Man, true World War III I sure hope we never have one of those. never have one of those. never have one of those. Uh I'm a you know, I'm a pessimist on Uh I'm a you know, I'm a pessimist on Uh I'm a you know, I'm a pessimist on human nature and I just think that I human nature and I just think that I human nature and I just think that I think that that it's just What was the think that that it's just What was the think that that it's just What was the old line that Bertrand Russell said, old line that Bertrand Russell said, old line that Bertrand Russell said, right? Expecting a man to walk a right? Expecting a man to walk a right? Expecting a man to walk a tightrope forever. I mean, uh the odds tightrope forever. I mean, uh the odds tightrope forever. I mean, uh the odds seem against it to me. seem against it to me. seem against it to me. I agree that I agree that I agree that given enough time, the probability of given enough time, the probability of given enough time, the probability of that there that there that there probability of a third World War is is probability of a third World War is is probability of a third World War is is high if you just give it enough time. high if you just give it enough time. high if you just give it enough time. Cuz Cuz Cuz yeah, it's just like the like how yeah, it's just like the like how yeah, it's just like the like how how far could you walk on that tightrope how far could you walk on that tightrope how far could you walk on that tightrope before falling off? Not forever. before falling off? Not forever. before falling off? Not forever. No, but I think the logical thing would No, but I think the logical thing would No, but I think the logical thing would be to push it, too. I think you'd have a be to push it, too. I think you'd have a be to push it, too. I think you'd have a miscalculation where it's the old line miscalculation where it's the old line miscalculation where it's the old line about where during the early phases of about where during the early phases of about where during the early phases of the nuclear era where they were talking the nuclear era where they were talking the nuclear era where they were talking about what if some country pushes pushes about what if some country pushes pushes about what if some country pushes pushes pushes in little teeny chunks so that pushes in little teeny chunks so that pushes in little teeny chunks so that it's never enough so that you'd want to it's never enough so that you'd want to it's never enough so that you'd want to risk a nuclear exchange over but it's risk a nuclear exchange over but it's risk a nuclear exchange over but it's enough to change the map. Um I mean, I enough to change the map. Um I mean, I enough to change the map. Um I mean, I feel like something like that's a a feel like something like that's a a feel like something like that's a a classic human first World War type classic human first World War type classic human first World War type miscalculation miscalculation miscalculation rather than people sitting down rather than people sitting down rather than people sitting down calculating the odds of winning a third calculating the odds of winning a third calculating the odds of winning a third World War. Does that make sense?

World War. Does that make sense? World War. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess that's Yeah, I guess that's Yeah, I guess that's that that is how these things tend to that that is how these things tend to that that is how these things tend to happen. That's a very unsatisfying happen. That's a very unsatisfying happen. That's a very unsatisfying answer to be right on that. I just want answer to be right on that. I just want answer to be right on that. I just want you to know. It's very unsatisfying for you to know. It's very unsatisfying for you to know. It's very unsatisfying for the pessimist view to work. the pessimist view to work. the pessimist view to work. Yes, thank you. That's it. I hope I'm Yes, thank you. That's it. I hope I'm Yes, thank you. That's it. I hope I'm wrong. wrong. wrong. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. The The The certainly one of the things that would certainly one of the things that would certainly one of the things that would occur in occur in occur in uh any kind of significant third World uh any kind of significant third World uh any kind of significant third World War even War even War even non-nuclear would be to uh take out the non-nuclear would be to uh take out the non-nuclear would be to uh take out the space assets of the of the others. space assets of the of the others. space assets of the of the others. And this can be done with either kinetic And this can be done with either kinetic And this can be done with either kinetic weapons like a you know, missile of some weapons like a you know, missile of some weapons like a you know, missile of some kind or an EMP. kind or an EMP. kind or an EMP. An EMP's uh An EMP's uh An EMP's uh man, uh you you can lob a nuke into the man, uh you you can lob a nuke into the man, uh you you can lob a nuke into the uh uh uh upper atmosphere or above the atmos upper atmosphere or above the atmos upper atmosphere or above the atmos in in the space and basically in in the space and basically in in the space and basically fire it and it actually would cause fire it and it actually would cause fire it and it actually would cause no or no no or no no or no it wouldn't it would not cause uh it wouldn't it would not cause uh it wouldn't it would not cause uh anyone to die on the ground from the anyone to die on the ground from the anyone to die on the ground from the from the explosion itself but it would from the explosion itself but it would from the explosion itself but it would it would uh it would uh it would uh the electromagnetic pulse the electromagnetic pulse the electromagnetic pulse would probably take out any satellites would probably take out any satellites would probably take out any satellites in the vicinity and it possibly uh in the vicinity and it possibly uh in the vicinity and it possibly uh power grids on the ground.

power grids on the ground. power grids on the ground. So So So that that's uh that that's uh that that's uh but that's also that man, that is a big but that's also that man, that is a big but that's also that man, that is a big move to do that stuff. It also EMPs do move to do that stuff. It also EMPs do move to do that stuff. It also EMPs do not discriminate so uh not discriminate so uh not discriminate so uh you know, it's going to take out the you know, it's going to take out the you know, it's going to take out the all the satellites in that area, not all the satellites in that area, not all the satellites in that area, not just you know, the enemy satellites. just you know, the enemy satellites. just you know, the enemy satellites. So I don't know if they'd be going for So I don't know if they'd be going for So I don't know if they'd be going for the EMP but I think the more likely the EMP but I think the more likely the EMP but I think the more likely situation would be situation would be situation would be anti-satellite missiles uh or anti-satellite missiles uh or anti-satellite missiles uh or ground-based directed energy ground-based directed energy ground-based directed energy uh uh uh you know, lasers light amplification you know, lasers light amplification you know, lasers light amplification through stimulated emission of radiation through stimulated emission of radiation through stimulated emission of radiation but so it's typically in the but so it's typically in the but so it's typically in the you know, uh maybe you know, uh maybe you know, uh maybe 400 to 400 to 400 to 1500 nanometer range with a 1500 nanometer range with a 1500 nanometer range with a that the 1500 nanometer being an that the 1500 nanometer being an that the 1500 nanometer being an infrared laser uh which is just so heat infrared laser uh which is just so heat infrared laser uh which is just so heat it up essentially. Although those don't it up essentially. Although those don't it up essentially. Although those don't work too well if there's a if the things work too well if there's a if the things work too well if there's a if the things are cloudy. You know, you're heating the are cloudy. You know, you're heating the are cloudy. You know, you're heating the cloud instead of the you know, what cloud instead of the you know, what cloud instead of the you know, what you're aiming at. you're aiming at. you're aiming at. You know, when I hear you talk about You know, when I hear you talk about You know, when I hear you talk about that though Elon, I think about cuz I that though Elon, I think about cuz I that though Elon, I think about cuz I think you're probably right in terms of think you're probably right in terms of think you're probably right in terms of of EMPs don't discriminate and all those of EMPs don't discriminate and all those of EMPs don't discriminate and all those kinds of stuff which would seem to kinds of stuff which would seem to kinds of stuff which would seem to indicate that it would not be a smart indicate that it would not be a smart indicate that it would not be a smart move for a for a a nation state. Uh how move for a for a a nation state. Uh how move for a for a a nation state. Uh how far cuz I realize there's capabilities far cuz I realize there's capabilities far cuz I realize there's capabilities involved here. How far away are we from involved here. How far away are we from involved here. How far away are we from having terrorists have a capability like having terrorists have a capability like having terrorists have a capability like that?

that? that? Well, a terrorist can launch a nuke into Well, a terrorist can launch a nuke into Well, a terrorist can launch a nuke into the upper atmosphere the upper atmosphere the upper atmosphere but they they can also nuke whatever but they they can also nuke whatever but they they can also nuke whatever else they they you know, cities or else they they you know, cities or else they they you know, cities or whatever, you know. So whatever, you know. So whatever, you know. So But would one nuke hitting I I don't get But would one nuke hitting I I don't get But would one nuke hitting I I don't get me wrong. I love I love these me wrong. I love I love these me wrong. I love I love these conversations where we give terrorists conversations where we give terrorists conversations where we give terrorists ideas but I feel like we've got a lot of ideas but I feel like we've got a lot of ideas but I feel like we've got a lot of ideas. But I mean but I mean, would you ideas. But I mean but I mean, would you ideas. But I mean but I mean, would you rather would you rather have a nuclear rather would you rather have a nuclear rather would you rather have a nuclear weapon, if you're a terrorist, hit an weapon, if you're a terrorist, hit an weapon, if you're a terrorist, hit an American city or would you do more American city or would you do more American city or would you do more damage to knock out the satellites? And damage to knock out the satellites? And damage to knock out the satellites? And I don't know which is the right answer I don't know which is the right answer I don't know which is the right answer but maybe you could I mean, would we be but maybe you could I mean, would we be but maybe you could I mean, would we be more discomforted by the satellites more discomforted by the satellites more discomforted by the satellites going out than than the US I mean, cuz going out than than the US I mean, cuz going out than than the US I mean, cuz if you're in New Orleans, you don't I if you're in New Orleans, you don't I if you're in New Orleans, you don't I mean, Los Angeles being hit's a disaster mean, Los Angeles being hit's a disaster mean, Los Angeles being hit's a disaster but it doesn't affect New Orleans that but it doesn't affect New Orleans that but it doesn't affect New Orleans that much. Whereas you take out the much. Whereas you take out the much. Whereas you take out the satellites and we're all in trouble. I satellites and we're all in trouble. I satellites and we're all in trouble. I mean, have I got that wrong? mean, have I got that wrong? mean, have I got that wrong? I think we'd much rather they took out I think we'd much rather they took out I think we'd much rather they took out the satellites than than a than a city. the satellites than than a than a city. the satellites than than a than a city. And they And they And they I think that makes sense. Yes. I think that makes sense. Yes. I think that makes sense. Yes. I'm going to go that makes sense. I'm going to go that makes sense. I'm going to go that makes sense. For sure. Um For sure. Um For sure. Um Bill, have we left you out of this Bill, have we left you out of this Bill, have we left you out of this discussion? Has there been anything discussion? Has there been anything discussion? Has there been anything we've talked about that that prompts any we've talked about that that prompts any we've talked about that that prompts any thinking from you where where either thinking from you where where either thinking from you where where either where I'm totally way off base or we're where I'm totally way off base or we're where I'm totally way off base or we're missing something really intriguing here missing something really intriguing here missing something really intriguing here in the last bit of conversation?

in the last bit of conversation? in the last bit of conversation? I think I just like to look at it back I think I just like to look at it back I think I just like to look at it back through the lens of the rock, paper, through the lens of the rock, paper, through the lens of the rock, paper, scissors and there's a lot of new rocks, scissors and there's a lot of new rocks, scissors and there's a lot of new rocks, papers, and scissors out there and papers, and scissors out there and papers, and scissors out there and it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just a trend it's just a trend it's just a trend development. The development. The development. The The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. Yep. The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. Yep. The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. Yep. The Rock Paper Scissors treadmill. Um what So so maybe maybe let's let's Um what So so maybe maybe let's let's Um what So so maybe maybe let's let's take it a little farther back, Elon, cuz take it a little farther back, Elon, cuz take it a little farther back, Elon, cuz you know, you and I were talking about you know, you and I were talking about you know, you and I were talking about engineers a while back. And you were you engineers a while back. And you were you engineers a while back. And you were you were you were you were teaching me about were you were you were teaching me about were you were you were teaching me about what an engineer does and all these what an engineer does and all these what an engineer does and all these kinds of things. And I started to go kinds of things. And I started to go kinds of things. And I started to go back to you know, we were talking about back to you know, we were talking about back to you know, we were talking about the importance of engineering as the the importance of engineering as the the importance of engineering as the pace of change speeds up. But then I pace of change speeds up. But then I pace of change speeds up. But then I keep thinking about guys like Archimedes keep thinking about guys like Archimedes keep thinking about guys like Archimedes or even earlier. I mean, the stuff in or even earlier. I mean, the stuff in or even earlier. I mean, the stuff in prehistory. Once upon a time, somebody prehistory. Once upon a time, somebody prehistory. Once upon a time, somebody invented a bow and arrow. Or somebody invented a bow and arrow. Or somebody invented a bow and arrow. Or somebody took a bow and turned it into a compound took a bow and turned it into a compound took a bow and turned it into a compound bow or composite bow. These people lost bow or composite bow. These people lost bow or composite bow. These people lost it. So talk to me a little about it. So talk to me a little about it. So talk to me a little about engineering and warfare. Is this just a engineering and warfare. Is this just a engineering and warfare. Is this just a facet of what engineers do to our whole facet of what engineers do to our whole facet of what engineers do to our whole life? Or is there something very life? Or is there something very life? Or is there something very specific to warfare and and the specific to warfare and and the specific to warfare and and the development of engineering in your mind?

development of engineering in your mind? development of engineering in your mind? Yeah. And and To be clear, I I don't Yeah. And and To be clear, I I don't Yeah. And and To be clear, I I don't mean to um mean to um mean to um uh in any way downplay the value of uh in any way downplay the value of uh in any way downplay the value of generalship, you know, tactics, generalship, you know, tactics, generalship, you know, tactics, strategy, uh and like No, they're all strategy, uh and like No, they're all strategy, uh and like No, they're all integrated. Absolutely. integrated. Absolutely. integrated. Absolutely. Or or anything like that. I just think Or or anything like that. I just think Or or anything like that. I just think that um engineering in general is that um engineering in general is that um engineering in general is underrated in its impact on the outcome underrated in its impact on the outcome underrated in its impact on the outcome of wars. of wars. of wars. So it's it's it's uh you know, to be So it's it's it's uh you know, to be So it's it's it's uh you know, to be clear clear clear I It's it's just I'm just trying to I It's it's just I'm just trying to I It's it's just I'm just trying to adjust for the importance of technology adjust for the importance of technology adjust for the importance of technology uh in in in warfare that that is often uh in in in warfare that that is often uh in in in warfare that that is often overlooked uh as as an important factor. overlooked uh as as an important factor. overlooked uh as as an important factor. Uh for example, Sun Tzu, Art of War, Uh for example, Sun Tzu, Art of War, Uh for example, Sun Tzu, Art of War, there is no chapter on technology. there is no chapter on technology. there is no chapter on technology. I mean, that's that's an interesting I mean, that's that's an interesting I mean, that's that's an interesting book. I read that I've read that many book. I read that I've read that many book. I read that I've read that many times. And um but there and there's lots times. And um but there and there's lots times. And um but there and there's lots of interesting elements to it. There's a of interesting elements to it. There's a of interesting elements to it. There's a lot of wisdom there, but I don't think lot of wisdom there, but I don't think lot of wisdom there, but I don't think Clausewitz deals with it, either, now Clausewitz deals with it, either, now Clausewitz deals with it, either, now that I think about it. that I think about it. that I think about it. It typically in it it's on Clausewitz on It typically in it it's on Clausewitz on It typically in it it's on Clausewitz on war really isn't war really isn't war really isn't It alludes to it, but does not really uh It alludes to it, but does not really uh It alludes to it, but does not really uh it's uh There should be a chapter it's uh There should be a chapter it's uh There should be a chapter saying, "If you have a decisive saying, "If you have a decisive saying, "If you have a decisive technology advantage, you you can you technology advantage, you you can you technology advantage, you you can you can you can actually win with minimal can you can actually win with minimal can you can actually win with minimal casualties casualties casualties to your side, at least."

to your side, at least." to your side, at least." And And you mentioned uh earlier in the And And you mentioned uh earlier in the And And you mentioned uh earlier in the conversation I think there's the the the conversation I think there's the the the conversation I think there's the the the the the the the war with Prussia against the the the the war with Prussia against the the the the war with Prussia against Austria. Austria. Austria. They had fast-loading guns. They had fast-loading guns. They had fast-loading guns. And And Austria did not. And And Austria did not. And And Austria did not. That was a made a big big difference in That was a made a big big difference in That was a made a big big difference in the in the the in the the in the Was that the needle gun? It was a I Was that the needle gun? It was a I Was that the needle gun? It was a I forget now. This is like now 30 years forget now. This is like now 30 years forget now. This is like now 30 years to the needle gun. It's It's something I to the needle gun. It's It's something I to the needle gun. It's It's something I It was It was like 30 years ago. It was It was like 30 years ago. It was It was like 30 years ago. Essentially, the the the the firing rate Essentially, the the the the firing rate Essentially, the the the the firing rate uh for that that Prussia had against the uh for that that Prussia had against the uh for that that Prussia had against the the war with Austria was dramatically the war with Austria was dramatically the war with Austria was dramatically higher. higher. higher. Right. And so the effectiveness of Right. And so the effectiveness of Right. And so the effectiveness of uh of the troops is really it it's like uh of the troops is really it it's like uh of the troops is really it it's like in one video game you you'd say, "For in one video game you you'd say, "For in one video game you you'd say, "For any given weapon, what is the damage per any given weapon, what is the damage per any given weapon, what is the damage per second? DPS." second? DPS." second? DPS." Just boil it down to DPS. Just boil it down to DPS. Just boil it down to DPS. And um And um And um and in the uh and in the uh and in the uh Napoleonic Wars, uh for example, the uh Napoleonic Wars, uh for example, the uh Napoleonic Wars, uh for example, the uh British had rifles. You know, a rifle is British had rifles. You know, a rifle is British had rifles. You know, a rifle is just basically scoring the inside of the just basically scoring the inside of the just basically scoring the inside of the barrel to to to rotate the um the bullet barrel to to to rotate the um the bullet barrel to to to rotate the um the bullet Yeah, that's what the rifling is, right?

Yeah, that's what the rifling is, right? Yeah, that's what the rifling is, right? Yeah, that's what Right. Rifling is is Yeah, that's what Right. Rifling is is Yeah, that's what Right. Rifling is is basically just You you you put a a basically just You you you put a a basically just You you you put a a You score the inside of the barrel with You score the inside of the barrel with You score the inside of the barrel with with a rotation to to put spin with a rotation to to put spin with a rotation to to put spin uh into the bullet. It's very got little uh into the bullet. It's very got little uh into the bullet. It's very got little X here. Um X here. Um X here. Um so they might have like little baby so they might have like little baby so they might have like little baby sounds. sounds. sounds. Um That's okay. That's I like that. Um That's okay. That's I like that. Um That's okay. That's I like that. For comedic relief. For comedic relief. For comedic relief. So So So Uh anyway, so so the British had rifles Uh anyway, so so the British had rifles Uh anyway, so so the British had rifles in the Napoleonic Wars, especially in the Napoleonic Wars, especially in the Napoleonic Wars, especially towards the end. They had towards the end. They had towards the end. They had I I I think it You know, I I I think it You know, I I I think it You know, and and it's it's a situation where it and and it's it's a situation where it and and it's it's a situation where it sounds like the rifles weren't enough to sounds like the rifles weren't enough to sounds like the rifles weren't enough to really make a difference, but actually really make a difference, but actually really make a difference, but actually they they did uh because they I think they they did uh because they I think they they did uh because they I think they had uh they had uh they had uh maybe a couple hundred meters extra maybe a couple hundred meters extra maybe a couple hundred meters extra range. And the the British would would range. And the the British would would range. And the the British would would snipe the the the the French officers. snipe the the the the French officers. snipe the the the the French officers. And the artillery pieces. And the artillery pieces. And the artillery pieces. And the artillery pieces, exactly. So So And the artillery pieces, exactly. So So And the artillery pieces, exactly. So So you don't actually need a lot of They're you don't actually need a lot of They're you don't actually need a lot of They're basically early day sniper rifles. basically early day sniper rifles. basically early day sniper rifles. Right. And And they were they were given Right. And And they were they were given Right. And And they were they were given to units that were like sniper units, to units that were like sniper units, to units that were like sniper units, cuz your average soldier carried the cuz your average soldier carried the cuz your average soldier carried the unrifled musket. But you're right, the unrifled musket. But you're right, the unrifled musket. But you're right, the specialist units carried the And we did specialist units carried the And we did specialist units carried the And we did that in this country, too. But if I that in this country, too. But if I that in this country, too. But if I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, you recall, correct me if I'm wrong, you recall, correct me if I'm wrong, you almost had to like hammer the bullet almost had to like hammer the bullet almost had to like hammer the bullet down the barrel. I mean, it was a long down the barrel. I mean, it was a long down the barrel. I mean, it was a long reload process in a day when it was reload process in a day when it was reload process in a day when it was already a long reload process.

already a long reload process. already a long reload process. the rifle had the rifle had the rifle had I think um I think um I think um it was a while before the rifle reload it was a while before the rifle reload it was a while before the rifle reload time was was was faster than the than time was was was faster than the than time was was was faster than the than the the the basic musket ball reload the the the basic musket ball reload the the the basic musket ball reload time. I think that's the war you just time. I think that's the war you just time. I think that's the war you just talked about, the Austrian-Prussian one, talked about, the Austrian-Prussian one, talked about, the Austrian-Prussian one, right? I mean, that's that's I think right? I mean, that's that's I think right? I mean, that's that's I think that's what part of it was it bolt that's what part of it was it bolt that's what part of it was it bolt action? Something was going on there action? Something was going on there action? Something was going on there that allowed the um the rate of the the that allowed the um the rate of the the that allowed the um the rate of the the rate of reloading to go faster. rate of reloading to go faster. rate of reloading to go faster. Yeah, exactly. This is This is only 30 Yeah, exactly. This is This is only 30 Yeah, exactly. This is This is only 30 years ago that I read about it. years ago that I read about it. years ago that I read about it. Um Um Um but but it was it was it was a decisive but but it was it was it was a decisive but but it was it was it was a decisive element because it just had the damage element because it just had the damage element because it just had the damage per second or damage per minute of the per second or damage per minute of the per second or damage per minute of the the Prussian forces was much higher than the Prussian forces was much higher than the Prussian forces was much higher than the damage per minute of the Austrian the damage per minute of the Austrian the damage per minute of the Austrian forces. You could also lie down where forces. You could also lie down where forces. You could also lie down where cuz then you didn't have to stand cuz then you didn't have to stand cuz then you didn't have to stand straight up for reloading, which meant straight up for reloading, which meant straight up for reloading, which meant you got away from the the linear warfare you got away from the the linear warfare you got away from the the linear warfare of the Napoleonic Revolutionary War era of the Napoleonic Revolutionary War era of the Napoleonic Revolutionary War era and all that. and all that. and all that. Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of The Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of The Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of The whole idea of just just firing musket whole idea of just just firing musket whole idea of just just firing musket balls at each other seems insane to me. balls at each other seems insane to me. balls at each other seems insane to me. It is It is It is like like the death lottery. like like the death lottery. like like the death lottery. And And with a high chance of winning. And And with a high chance of winning. And And with a high chance of winning. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The Don't fire till you Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The Don't fire till you Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The Don't fire till you see the whites of their eyes, right? see the whites of their eyes, right? see the whites of their eyes, right? But But anyway, I just say like this is But But anyway, I just say like this is But But anyway, I just say like this is examples of like the the British use of examples of like the the British use of examples of like the the British use of rifles in towards the end of Napoleonic rifles in towards the end of Napoleonic rifles in towards the end of Napoleonic Wars was much more decisive than it Wars was much more decisive than it Wars was much more decisive than it would seem based on the sheer number of would seem based on the sheer number of would seem based on the sheer number of rifles because they rifles because they rifles because they um um um they they specifically aimed at the they they specifically aimed at the they they specifically aimed at the French officers and at the artillery.

French officers and at the artillery. French officers and at the artillery. And so that's like that's like giving, And so that's like that's like giving, And so that's like that's like giving, you know, you lose your officer, you you know, you lose your officer, you you know, you lose your officer, you don't know what to do. don't know what to do. don't know what to do. But I think And correct me if I'm wrong, But I think And correct me if I'm wrong, But I think And correct me if I'm wrong, I think that rifles It's It's equivalent I think that rifles It's It's equivalent I think that rifles It's It's equivalent of a head shot, you know. of a head shot, you know. of a head shot, you know. I don't think anyone had a a monopoly on I don't think anyone had a a monopoly on I don't think anyone had a a monopoly on rifles. I mean, I think that's how Lord rifles. I mean, I think that's how Lord rifles. I mean, I think that's how Lord Nelson, the famous admiral, was shot. Nelson, the famous admiral, was shot. Nelson, the famous admiral, was shot. Wasn't he? He was shot by a Well, that Wasn't he? He was shot by a Well, that Wasn't he? He was shot by a Well, that might not have been a rifle. He was shot might not have been a rifle. He was shot might not have been a rifle. He was shot by a French guy in the in the rigging of by a French guy in the in the rigging of by a French guy in the in the rigging of a of an enemy ship. But But you're a of an enemy ship. But But you're a of an enemy ship. But But you're right, that's the taking out of the right, that's the taking out of the right, that's the taking out of the officers. If you could kill one Lord officers. If you could kill one Lord officers. If you could kill one Lord Horatio Nelson, how many average sailors Horatio Nelson, how many average sailors Horatio Nelson, how many average sailors is that worth? Yeah. is that worth? Yeah. is that worth? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Um Um By the way, I think Wellington's By the way, I think Wellington's By the way, I think Wellington's underrated. Um Well, underrated. Um Well, underrated. Um Well, Well, as an as an Irish guy, I'm going Well, as an as an Irish guy, I'm going Well, as an as an Irish guy, I'm going to agree with you. to agree with you. to agree with you. Um Okay. Well, well, listen, is is there Um Okay. Well, well, listen, is is there Um Okay. Well, well, listen, is is there anything cuz you know, you and I've been anything cuz you know, you and I've been anything cuz you know, you and I've been talking about doing this for a long talking about doing this for a long talking about doing this for a long time. Is there anything we didn't talk time. Is there anything we didn't talk time. Is there anything we didn't talk about that was part of what you wanted about that was part of what you wanted about that was part of what you wanted to get into here? And this includes you, to get into here? And this includes you, to get into here? And this includes you, too, Bill. I don't know what what you too, Bill. I don't know what what you too, Bill. I don't know what what you wanted to get into, but I want to make wanted to get into, but I want to make wanted to get into, but I want to make sure that during the course of the sure that during the course of the sure that during the course of the conversation, we touch upon these conversation, we touch upon these conversation, we touch upon these things. I mean, there's so much I could things. I mean, there's so much I could things. I mean, there's so much I could still ask you about. I mean, I wrote still ask you about. I mean, I wrote still ask you about. I mean, I wrote down chemical warheads on V2 rockets.

Did I lose you guys? You still there? Did I lose you guys? You still there? are you there? I'm here. I'm here. are you there? I'm here. I'm here. are you there? I'm here. I'm here. Okay. No There was no Are you guys Okay. No There was no Are you guys Okay. No There was no Are you guys objecting to the fact that there was no objecting to the fact that there was no objecting to the fact that there was no actual question in that question? actual question in that question? actual question in that question? I was You guys thought you were going to I was You guys thought you were going to I was You guys thought you were going to get questions? get questions? get questions? I didn't know if we actually addressed I didn't know if we actually addressed I didn't know if we actually addressed the last topic change, Dan, or if we the last topic change, Dan, or if we the last topic change, Dan, or if we kind of hopped around, but kind of hopped around, but kind of hopped around, but Well, hop back. Well, hop back. Well, hop back. Well, I don't I don't know exactly where Well, I don't I don't know exactly where Well, I don't I don't know exactly where we were headed on it, but it was kind of we were headed on it, but it was kind of we were headed on it, but it was kind of interesting. Like the idea I mean, I interesting. Like the idea I mean, I interesting. Like the idea I mean, I think Elon was basically saying it's think Elon was basically saying it's think Elon was basically saying it's it's not it's all these different it's not it's all these different it's not it's all these different aspects and the aspects and the aspects and the It's It's the It's It's the It's It's the and the generals and the bravery, but and the generals and the bravery, but and the generals and the bravery, but the engineering the engineering the engineering it's an interesting lens to look at it it's an interesting lens to look at it it's an interesting lens to look at it through and talk about it. That That's through and talk about it. That That's through and talk about it. That That's kind of what I was thinking back to. what I was thinking back to. Well, I mean, so so maybe one could make Well, I mean, so so maybe one could make Well, I mean, so so maybe one could make the case that we've seen the the ratio the case that we've seen the the ratio the case that we've seen the the ratio of importance of all those various of importance of all those various of importance of all those various elements, generalship, heroism, elements, generalship, heroism, elements, generalship, heroism, engineering. So We've seen the ratio and engineering. So We've seen the ratio and engineering. So We've seen the ratio and the importance in the terms of a triage the importance in the terms of a triage the importance in the terms of a triage level maybe changing over time. Maybe level maybe changing over time. Maybe level maybe changing over time. Maybe this gets us into a nice bow tie with this gets us into a nice bow tie with this gets us into a nice bow tie with the beginning of the conversation about the beginning of the conversation about the beginning of the conversation about the importance of science and the importance of science and the importance of science and engineering once you reach the late engineering once you reach the late engineering once you reach the late 19th, early 20th century.

19th, early 20th century. 19th, early 20th century. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. It It It It is just It is just It is just when the rate of change of technology is when the rate of change of technology is when the rate of change of technology is high such that there is high such that there is high such that there is a big technology difference between one a big technology difference between one a big technology difference between one side and the other side and the other side and the other that then then technology dominates. Uh that then then technology dominates. Uh that then then technology dominates. Uh and and you you get a lopsided victory. and and you you get a lopsided victory. and and you you get a lopsided victory. So So So But then what happens in Afghanistan? But then what happens in Afghanistan? But then what happens in Afghanistan? You see what I'm saying? I mean, I I You see what I'm saying? I mean, I I You see what I'm saying? I mean, I I think that that what what what you're think that that what what what you're think that that what what what you're saying makes sense most of the time, but saying makes sense most of the time, but saying makes sense most of the time, but there are enough examples we can use there are enough examples we can use there are enough examples we can use that just say otherwise, it would be why that just say otherwise, it would be why that just say otherwise, it would be why even fight the war, right? It's a even fight the war, right? It's a even fight the war, right? It's a foregone conclusion. How come it didn't foregone conclusion. How come it didn't foregone conclusion. How come it didn't win in Vietnam? There's other elements, win in Vietnam? There's other elements, win in Vietnam? There's other elements, right? Well, right? Well, right? Well, the the US um the the US um the the US um uh is just does not engage in in in uh uh is just does not engage in in in uh uh is just does not engage in in in uh unrestricted warfare. unrestricted warfare. unrestricted warfare. So you know, I I by no means do I mean So you know, I I by no means do I mean So you know, I I by no means do I mean suggest that the suggest that the suggest that the that that everything America does is that that everything America does is that that everything America does is is is good. But um and I'll I'll is is good. But um and I'll I'll is is good. But um and I'll I'll probably get a lot of flak for saying probably get a lot of flak for saying probably get a lot of flak for saying this, but uh probably a lot. But I I this, but uh probably a lot. But I I this, but uh probably a lot. But I I actually think America is the actually think America is the actually think America is the the the greatest sort of force for the the greatest sort of force for the the greatest sort of force for benevolent outcome of any country in benevolent outcome of any country in benevolent outcome of any country in history.

history. history. On balance. That doesn't mean everything On balance. That doesn't mean everything On balance. That doesn't mean everything America does is good. America does is good. America does is good. You know, so you could always say like You know, so you could always say like You know, so you could always say like America went to the moon. Why can't they America went to the moon. Why can't they America went to the moon. Why can't they do Why can't America do everything that do Why can't America do everything that do Why can't America do everything that It's like look, It's like look, It's like look, you know, America's like a person. A you know, America's like a person. A you know, America's like a person. A person, you know, might do something person, you know, might do something person, you know, might do something brilliant, but it doesn't mean brilliant, but it doesn't mean brilliant, but it doesn't mean everything they do is brilliant. everything they do is brilliant. everything they do is brilliant. So So So but because you know, but because you know, but because you know, Yeah, you know, here in America we we Yeah, you know, here in America we we Yeah, you know, here in America we we aspire to be the good guys. And may that aspire to be the good guys. And may that aspire to be the good guys. And may that ever continue. ever continue. ever continue. And uh And uh And uh uh it's if if if the if it if the uh it's if if if the if it if the uh it's if if if the if it if the warfare is truly allowed to be warfare is truly allowed to be warfare is truly allowed to be unrestricted, you can just carpet bomb unrestricted, you can just carpet bomb unrestricted, you can just carpet bomb the enemy until they're not there the enemy until they're not there the enemy until they're not there anymore. anymore. anymore. I mean, we could use nukes. But let's I mean, we could use nukes. But let's I mean, we could use nukes. But let's not But let's not pretend that that's a not But let's not pretend that that's a not But let's not pretend that that's a moral question always. I mean, the moral question always. I mean, the moral question always. I mean, the reason you don't nuke North Vietnam is reason you don't nuke North Vietnam is reason you don't nuke North Vietnam is because then you're going to risk the because then you're going to risk the because then you're going to risk the full on nuclear exchange with the Soviet full on nuclear exchange with the Soviet full on nuclear exchange with the Soviet you I mean in other words you might have you I mean in other words you might have you I mean in other words you might have wanted to turn North Vietnamese wanted to turn North Vietnamese wanted to turn North Vietnamese territory into glass but it might not territory into glass but it might not territory into glass but it might not have been an option on the table right have been an option on the table right have been an option on the table right there's multiple there's multiple there's multiple there's multiple there's multiple there's multiple factors going into all these decisions factors going into all these decisions factors going into all these decisions that that that constrain your options that that that constrain your options that that that constrain your options right? Yeah but right? Yeah but right? Yeah but nukes would not have been required to nukes would not have been required to nukes would not have been required to defeat uh defeat uh defeat uh the Viet Cong.

the Viet Cong. the Viet Cong. That could have been done with That could have been done with That could have been done with conventional weapons but it would have conventional weapons but it would have conventional weapons but it would have resulted in a lot of resulted in a lot of resulted in a lot of civilians dying. civilians dying. civilians dying. So it's then the question is like are So it's then the question is like are So it's then the question is like are you willing to kill a large numbers of you willing to kill a large numbers of you willing to kill a large numbers of civilians? United States is not willing civilians? United States is not willing civilians? United States is not willing to do that. to do that. to do that. So therefore loss. So therefore loss. So therefore loss. I'm thinking of Korea and I think we I'm thinking of Korea and I think we I'm thinking of Korea and I think we destroyed almost all those villages destroyed almost all those villages destroyed almost all those villages and ended up in a stalemate. I just I and ended up in a stalemate. I just I and ended up in a stalemate. I just I think I think there's an interaction think I think there's an interaction think I think there's an interaction going on here and I think that the going on here and I think that the going on here and I think that the technology is just one aspect of this technology is just one aspect of this technology is just one aspect of this but I do believe and I think this is but I do believe and I think this is but I do believe and I think this is something you've alluded to that as the something you've alluded to that as the something you've alluded to that as the as the technological sophistication as the technological sophistication as the technological sophistication becomes so overwhelming and so dominant becomes so overwhelming and so dominant becomes so overwhelming and so dominant that it starts to shrink the importance that it starts to shrink the importance that it starts to shrink the importance of all those other factors that we of all those other factors that we of all those other factors that we talked about that play into the overall talked about that play into the overall talked about that play into the overall equation right? Like you said if it's equation right? Like you said if it's equation right? Like you said if it's laser beams versus caveman that's pretty laser beams versus caveman that's pretty laser beams versus caveman that's pretty that's a pretty that's a pretty decisive that's a pretty that's a pretty decisive that's a pretty that's a pretty decisive situation. situation. situation. Yeah or even yeah if you simply have air Yeah or even yeah if you simply have air Yeah or even yeah if you simply have air superiority and you don't you're not superiority and you don't you're not superiority and you don't you're not don't have the advantage of don't have the advantage of don't have the advantage of extreme ground cover in a in a sort of a extreme ground cover in a in a sort of a extreme ground cover in a in a sort of a heavily jungle situation heavily jungle situation heavily jungle situation just having air superiority will will just having air superiority will will just having air superiority will will you're going to win you know so you're going to win you know so you're going to win you know so It depends on what win means too right?

It depends on what win means too right? It depends on what win means too right? Depends on what what win means. Depends on what what win means. Depends on what what win means. But But But I mean certainly no question the United I mean certainly no question the United I mean certainly no question the United States States could have won the war in States States could have won the war in States States could have won the war in Viet Vietnam Viet Vietnam Viet Vietnam if if if it had the will to do so and if if if it had the will to do so and if if if it had the will to do so and and was willing to be and was willing to be and was willing to be do a lot more civilian casualties but I do a lot more civilian casualties but I do a lot more civilian casualties but I mean I think that that would not be a mean I think that that would not be a mean I think that that would not be a good thing but good thing but good thing but you know the United States just just you know the United States just just you know the United States just just doesn't believe in doesn't believe in doesn't believe in you know the United States cares about you know the United States cares about you know the United States cares about if if if lots of civilians die. lots of civilians die. lots of civilians die. The you know and The you know and The you know and this is actually relatively unusual this is actually relatively unusual this is actually relatively unusual in in in in in in and you know and you know and you know it it it there there there there there there in all in all the wars in all the in all in all the wars in all the in all in all the wars in all the history and all the protagonists history and all the protagonists history and all the protagonists most of them did not care about killing most of them did not care about killing most of them did not care about killing civilians. The United States does and civilians. The United States does and civilians. The United States does and may it ever be that way. may it ever be that way. may it ever be that way. Now you've got my brain so you got this Now you've got my brain so you got this Now you've got my brain so you got this is what I like about these conversations is what I like about these conversations is what I like about these conversations is you've got the wheels turning now. So is you've got the wheels turning now. So is you've got the wheels turning now. So now you've got me wondering about now you've got me wondering about now you've got me wondering about technology in the Second World War if technology in the Second World War if technology in the Second World War if the other side had developed it first. the other side had developed it first. the other side had developed it first. So we all know the Germans were working So we all know the Germans were working So we all know the Germans were working hard on jet aircraft. I would say jet hard on jet aircraft. I would say jet hard on jet aircraft. I would say jet fighters or jet bombers but apparently fighters or jet bombers but apparently fighters or jet bombers but apparently they couldn't make up their minds.

they couldn't make up their minds. they couldn't make up their minds. So let's talk about the nuclear weapons. So let's talk about the nuclear weapons. So let's talk about the nuclear weapons. We know that they We know that they We know that they you know there's some rumors of the you know there's some rumors of the you know there's some rumors of the Japanese working on them but we know Japanese working on them but we know Japanese working on them but we know that the Germans would have liked to that the Germans would have liked to that the Germans would have liked to have gotten them. have gotten them. have gotten them. So if they had gotten them first So if they had gotten them first So if they had gotten them first realizing that you know there were not realizing that you know there were not realizing that you know there were not many bombs even when we had them many bombs even when we had them many bombs even when we had them how much of a difference does that make how much of a difference does that make how much of a difference does that make if if in 44? I don't want to say 45 if if in 44? I don't want to say 45 if if in 44? I don't want to say 45 because I think the war is over already because I think the war is over already because I think the war is over already but but let's imagine during a time but but let's imagine during a time but but let's imagine during a time period where there's still something period where there's still something period where there's still something going on going on going on how decisive is something like that if how decisive is something like that if how decisive is something like that if the Germans get the nuclear the atomic the Germans get the nuclear the atomic the Germans get the nuclear the atomic weapons first? In your mind. weapons first? In your mind. weapons first? In your mind. They win of course. They win of course. They win of course. Do you think so? Yes. Do you think so? Yes. Do you think so? Yes. I wonder because they got the V2 rockets I wonder because they got the V2 rockets I wonder because they got the V2 rockets right? I mean No no but right? I mean No no but right? I mean No no but damage potential I mean put it this way damage potential I mean put it this way damage potential I mean put it this way if they have both if they have both if they have both long range rockets The V2s and the and long range rockets The V2s and the and long range rockets The V2s and the and the yeah. It's game the yeah. It's game the yeah. It's game instant instant instant the other side just lost. 100%. Interesting. I 100%. Interesting. I I still wonder why they didn't I mean I still wonder why they didn't I mean I still wonder why they didn't I mean look when you realize that that regime look when you realize that that regime look when you realize that that regime was was so terrible that that nothing is was was so terrible that that nothing is was was so terrible that that nothing is beyond the pale of what they might do. I beyond the pale of what they might do. I beyond the pale of what they might do. I don't know why in 44 they didn't just don't know why in 44 they didn't just don't know why in 44 they didn't just say we have all this territory we're say we have all this territory we're say we have all this territory we're occupying if if you don't want something occupying if if you don't want something occupying if if you don't want something really bad to happen to all these really bad to happen to all these really bad to happen to all these occupied people you know you'll come to occupied people you know you'll come to occupied people you know you'll come to the negotiating table right now. I mean the negotiating table right now. I mean the negotiating table right now. I mean I always wonder why things didn't if if I always wonder why things didn't if if I always wonder why things didn't if if a science fiction writer were having a science fiction writer were having a science fiction writer were having some fun with that they'd be holding you some fun with that they'd be holding you some fun with that they'd be holding you know whole countries hostage for a good know whole countries hostage for a good know whole countries hostage for a good deal and maybe maybe that deal and maybe maybe that deal and maybe maybe that dovetails into something you said dovetails into something you said dovetails into something you said earlier but you really think it's game earlier but you really think it's game earlier but you really think it's game over if the Germans get new is there a over if the Germans get new is there a over if the Germans get new is there a time period where they could get nuclear

time period where they could get nuclear time period where they could get nuclear weapons where it's too late? I mean if weapons where it's too late? I mean if weapons where it's too late? I mean if they get them in in January 45 is it too they get them in in January 45 is it too they get them in in January 45 is it too late or is it such a game changer it late or is it such a game changer it late or is it such a game changer it doesn't matter when they get them? doesn't matter when they get them? doesn't matter when they get them? Well if they've lost air superiority Well if they've lost air superiority Well if they've lost air superiority then I think it would be tough. then I think it would be tough. then I think it would be tough. Um Um Um They lost that in 43 probably don't you They lost that in 43 probably don't you They lost that in 43 probably don't you think? think? think? Not Not Not fully no they still uh fully no they still uh fully no they still uh you know they they they didn't have it you know they they they didn't have it you know they they they didn't have it over over Britain or whatever but they over over Britain or whatever but they over over Britain or whatever but they I don't think they lost air superiority I don't think they lost air superiority I don't think they lost air superiority in 43 over Germany or in that area. in 43 over Germany or in that area. in 43 over Germany or in that area. Basically it's like you you need it Basically it's like you you need it Basically it's like you you need it delivered delivered delivered and that's either going to be a long and that's either going to be a long and that's either going to be a long range bomber or range bomber or range bomber or a long range missile. a long range missile. a long range missile. So So So but you know it's but you know it's but you know it's you know you know you know it clearly they wouldn't have bothered it clearly they wouldn't have bothered it clearly they wouldn't have bothered using troops on Stalingrad if they had a using troops on Stalingrad if they had a using troops on Stalingrad if they had a nuke. They'd be like oh nuke. They'd be like oh nuke. They'd be like oh that used to be a city not anymore. that used to be a city not anymore. that used to be a city not anymore. So So So Okay well now I want to now I want to Okay well now I want to now I want to Okay well now I want to now I want to ask a question that might be a good time ask a question that might be a good time ask a question that might be a good time to wrap this up because it might be a to wrap this up because it might be a to wrap this up because it might be a good good so I've always it's always good good so I've always it's always good good so I've always it's always been my contention that the Germans been my contention that the Germans been my contention that the Germans of the First World War were a stronger of the First World War were a stronger of the First World War were a stronger power and a more formidable foe than the power and a more formidable foe than the power and a more formidable foe than the Germans of the Second World War and one Germans of the Second World War and one Germans of the Second World War and one of the reasons I always used was that of the reasons I always used was that of the reasons I always used was that the Germans in the Second World War the Germans in the Second World War the Germans in the Second World War deliberately got rid of a lot of the deliberately got rid of a lot of the deliberately got rid of a lot of the things that would have helped them in things that would have helped them in things that would have helped them in the Second World War for reasons that the Second World War for reasons that the Second World War for reasons that had nothing to do with military had nothing to do with military had nothing to do with military superiority also for example superiority also for example superiority also for example a lot of Jewish people fought a lot of Jewish people fought a lot of Jewish people fought patriotically for Germany in the First patriotically for Germany in the First patriotically for Germany in the First World War World War World War a lot of those same Jewish people that a lot of those same Jewish people that a lot of those same Jewish people that would have done it in the Second World would have done it in the Second World would have done it in the Second World War were in other countries by the time War were in other countries by the time War were in other countries by the time the Second World War was fought because

the Second World War was fought because the Second World War was fought because of they weren't welcome at home and of they weren't welcome at home and of they weren't welcome at home and that's saying it mildly but you take a that's saying it mildly but you take a that's saying it mildly but you take a guy like Einstein and we know there were guy like Einstein and we know there were guy like Einstein and we know there were there were several besides Einstein who there were several besides Einstein who there were several besides Einstein who would have been involved in um would have been involved in um would have been involved in um assuming that they were patriotic assuming that they were patriotic assuming that they were patriotic Germans fighting for the German cause as Germans fighting for the German cause as Germans fighting for the German cause as they would have in the First World War they would have in the First World War they would have in the First World War a guy like Einstein and and his a guy like Einstein and and his a guy like Einstein and and his compatriots might have been helping the compatriots might have been helping the compatriots might have been helping the Germans develop atomic weapons. How much Germans develop atomic weapons. How much Germans develop atomic weapons. How much of a difference do you think it might of a difference do you think it might of a difference do you think it might have made had the had the people that have made had the had the people that have made had the had the people that were in the US atomic weapons program or were in the US atomic weapons program or were in the US atomic weapons program or the US space program or anything like the US space program or anything like the US space program or anything like that if they'd stayed in Germany and had that if they'd stayed in Germany and had that if they'd stayed in Germany and had fought and and and used their scientific fought and and and used their scientific fought and and and used their scientific skills for that side as opposed to our skills for that side as opposed to our skills for that side as opposed to our side. How much of a difference does that side. How much of a difference does that side. How much of a difference does that make in your mind? No I think that would make in your mind? No I think that would make in your mind? No I think that would have made a tremendous difference and have made a tremendous difference and have made a tremendous difference and the person you'd want is not Einstein the person you'd want is not Einstein the person you'd want is not Einstein but Leo Szilard. Okay yeah yeah yeah. but Leo Szilard. Okay yeah yeah yeah. but Leo Szilard. Okay yeah yeah yeah. So So So Szilard is the one who really uh Szilard is the one who really uh Szilard is the one who really uh was was pushing the nukes and and was was pushing the nukes and and was was pushing the nukes and and frankly I think there were others that frankly I think there were others that frankly I think there were others that kind of knew kind of knew kind of knew they probably have a fair number that they probably have a fair number that they probably have a fair number that knew it if this would probably work but knew it if this would probably work but knew it if this would probably work but they did not want they did not want they did not want to to send their mind in that direction.

to to send their mind in that direction. to to send their mind in that direction. But Szilard Szilard and I believe But Szilard Szilard and I believe But Szilard Szilard and I believe Szilard was Hungarian. Szilard was Hungarian. Szilard was Hungarian. So so if if you know they literally had So so if if you know they literally had So so if if you know they literally had them right there. them right there. them right there. Yeah guys like Fuchs though Klaus Fuchs Yeah guys like Fuchs though Klaus Fuchs Yeah guys like Fuchs though Klaus Fuchs was there I mean there people like that was there I mean there people like that was there I mean there people like that too right? too right? too right? exactly. exactly. exactly. So you know if if if So you know if if if So you know if if if they'd gotten um they'd gotten um they'd gotten um if if if if they had in fact not if if if if they had in fact not if if if if they had in fact not been been anti-Semitic and just been been anti-Semitic and just been been anti-Semitic and just generally generally generally alienated a lot of people and pushed alienated a lot of people and pushed alienated a lot of people and pushed apart Alienated. apart Alienated. apart Alienated. the least. Then then they there's a good chance Then then they there's a good chance Germany I would say Germany probably Germany I would say Germany probably Germany I would say Germany probably would have had the nuke before anyone would have had the nuke before anyone would have had the nuke before anyone else. else. else. Yeah. Is there anything Elon and this Yeah. Is there anything Elon and this Yeah. Is there anything Elon and this applies to you too Bill is there applies to you too Bill is there applies to you too Bill is there anything I didn't get into and that's anything I didn't get into and that's anything I didn't get into and that's that's that's an interesting piece of of that's that's an interesting piece of of that's that's an interesting piece of of of information on the subject we've been of information on the subject we've been of information on the subject we've been dealing with that I just either didn't dealing with that I just either didn't dealing with that I just either didn't ask you about or was not intelligent ask you about or was not intelligent ask you about or was not intelligent enough to even know it was sitting out enough to even know it was sitting out enough to even know it was sitting out there in plain sight. there in plain sight. there in plain sight. I always hate to just leave anything on I always hate to just leave anything on I always hate to just leave anything on the table so so what haven't we dealt the table so so what haven't we dealt the table so so what haven't we dealt with that would have been intriguing? with that would have been intriguing? with that would have been intriguing? Well I mean we could certainly talk for Well I mean we could certainly talk for Well I mean we could certainly talk for for a long time and and I'd be open to for a long time and and I'd be open to for a long time and and I'd be open to talking again in the future if you'd talking again in the future if you'd talking again in the future if you'd like. Um like. Um like. Um but man there's so much we could talk but man there's so much we could talk but man there's so much we could talk about uh about uh about uh Well you know what you can save it for Well you know what you can save it for Well you know what you can save it for next time then. This this gives us a next time then. This this gives us a next time then. This this gives us a wonderful jumping off point next time wonderful jumping off point next time wonderful jumping off point next time and I hope Bill would be nice enough to and I hope Bill would be nice enough to and I hope Bill would be nice enough to join us as well. But uh yeah join us as well. But uh yeah join us as well. But uh yeah we we could we could go maybe more into we we could we could go maybe more into we we could we could go maybe more into you know more specifics about particular you know more specifics about particular you know more specifics about particular battles and that kind of thing.

battles and that kind of thing. battles and that kind of thing. Well we could we could maybe get into Well we could we could maybe get into Well we could we could maybe get into some of the things you guys wanted to some of the things you guys wanted to some of the things you guys wanted to talk about instead of my pet issues talk about instead of my pet issues talk about instead of my pet issues also. also. also. Uh yeah no I mean we're we're just Uh yeah no I mean we're we're just Uh yeah no I mean we're we're just basically trying to emphasize that um basically trying to emphasize that um basically trying to emphasize that um you know in you know in you know in in some conflicts in some conflicts in some conflicts technology and and engineering these technology and and engineering these technology and and engineering these were were kind of engineering wars. were were kind of engineering wars. were were kind of engineering wars. And and that that is often overlooked as And and that that is often overlooked as And and that that is often overlooked as I mentioned not in Sun Tzu not in I mentioned not in Sun Tzu not in I mentioned not in Sun Tzu not in Clausewitz on war. Clausewitz on war. Clausewitz on war. And And And but but obviously extremely decisive if but but obviously extremely decisive if but but obviously extremely decisive if you you you have um have um have um you know you know you know a big technology advantage. a big technology advantage. a big technology advantage. Maybe that's the fun part to jump off Maybe that's the fun part to jump off Maybe that's the fun part to jump off next time. I'll do some research and try next time. I'll do some research and try next time. I'll do some research and try to find out when you first start seeing to find out when you first start seeing to find out when you first start seeing discussions of technology advantages and discussions of technology advantages and discussions of technology advantages and whatnot in the in the written historical whatnot in the in the written historical whatnot in the in the written historical record. That might be fascinating. Well record. That might be fascinating. Well record. That might be fascinating. Well there's that isn't that poem um there's that isn't that poem um there's that isn't that poem um what what what what what what I forget the exact terminology what what I forget the exact terminology what what I forget the exact terminology what what whatever else matters whatever else matters whatever else matters we have the Maxim gun and they have not. we have the Maxim gun and they have not. we have the Maxim gun and they have not. Maxim gun and they have not. Maxim gun and they have not. Maxim gun and they have not. Well you know it's funny cuz there's Well you know it's funny cuz there's Well you know it's funny cuz there's there was some stuff written and I'd there was some stuff written and I'd there was some stuff written and I'd have to look it up. I remember reading have to look it up. I remember reading have to look it up. I remember reading it in Arthur Ferrill's book it in Arthur Ferrill's book it in Arthur Ferrill's book on warfare where he was talking about as on warfare where he was talking about as on warfare where he was talking about as the Roman Empire is starting to decline the Roman Empire is starting to decline the Roman Empire is starting to decline they were starting to push some ideas or they were starting to push some ideas or they were starting to push some ideas or some people their versions of Elon Musk some people their versions of Elon Musk some people their versions of Elon Musk were starting to push ideas of secret were starting to push ideas of secret were starting to push ideas of secret weapons and super weapons and ways that weapons and super weapons and ways that weapons and super weapons and ways that they could somehow compensate for the they could somehow compensate for the they could somehow compensate for the other areas in warfare that they were other areas in warfare that they were other areas in warfare that they were losing whether it's territory where they losing whether it's territory where they losing whether it's territory where they could recruit soldiers from or or what could recruit soldiers from or or what could recruit soldiers from or or what have you and it was stuff like you know have you and it was stuff like you know have you and it was stuff like you know scythe chariots and all kinds of scythe chariots and all kinds of scythe chariots and all kinds of interesting we all know that they had

interesting we all know that they had interesting we all know that they had Greek fire and a bunch of other Greek fire and a bunch of other Greek fire and a bunch of other interesting things. Be fun to look at interesting things. Be fun to look at interesting things. Be fun to look at the impact of technology in earlier the impact of technology in earlier the impact of technology in earlier warfare before we could even really warfare before we could even really warfare before we could even really recognize it as technology. recognize it as technology. recognize it as technology. Totally in my opinion the Romans won Totally in my opinion the Romans won Totally in my opinion the Romans won their wars for their wars for their wars for for many reasons but one of the for many reasons but one of the for many reasons but one of the decisive elements was the Romans decisive elements was the Romans decisive elements was the Romans were the best engineers. Absolutely. were the best engineers. Absolutely. were the best engineers. Absolutely. It's like Assyrians were great It's like Assyrians were great It's like Assyrians were great engineers, too. engineers, too. engineers, too. Yeah, um Yeah, um Yeah, um And the Chinese always And the Chinese always And the Chinese always less about that, but but the the Romans less about that, but but the the Romans less about that, but but the the Romans really were great engineers and uh really were great engineers and uh really were great engineers and uh I mean, they'd lay down roads. And if I mean, they'd lay down roads. And if I mean, they'd lay down roads. And if like you're trying to march somewhere, like you're trying to march somewhere, like you're trying to march somewhere, man, roads are roads beat the heck out man, roads are roads beat the heck out man, roads are roads beat the heck out of some, you know, of some, you know, of some, you know, little windy path through the forest. little windy path through the forest. little windy path through the forest. Um Um Um And uh you know, It's totally the And uh you know, It's totally the And uh you know, It's totally the non-sexy side of war, too, but it's so non-sexy side of war, too, but it's so non-sexy side of war, too, but it's so important. important. important. need roads. Um need roads. Um need roads. Um And then it It was kind of a theme that And then it It was kind of a theme that And then it It was kind of a theme that the supply chain, like the the supply chain, like the the supply chain, like the the octane high-octane fuel, the roads the octane high-octane fuel, the roads the octane high-octane fuel, the roads gets the legions where you need them to gets the legions where you need them to gets the legions where you need them to fight the Celts. fight the Celts. fight the Celts. The supply you know, like The supply you know, like The supply you know, like Didn't Napoleon say an army marches on Didn't Napoleon say an army marches on Didn't Napoleon say an army marches on its stomach? Right, right. Which I think its stomach? Right, right. Which I think its stomach? Right, right. Which I think may maybe actually falsely attributed to may maybe actually falsely attributed to may maybe actually falsely attributed to Napoleon, but Oh, okay. Sorry. But it Napoleon, but Oh, okay. Sorry. But it Napoleon, but Oh, okay. Sorry. But it but it but it's nonetheless true.

but it but it's nonetheless true. but it but it's nonetheless true. I have found that it I I it's dangerous I have found that it I I it's dangerous I have found that it I I it's dangerous for me to quote anybody anymore because for me to quote anybody anymore because for me to quote anybody anymore because everybody I've ever quoted and every everybody I've ever quoted and every everybody I've ever quoted and every quote I've ever I've ever repeated seems quote I've ever I've ever repeated seems quote I've ever I've ever repeated seems to be wrong when people double-check it. to be wrong when people double-check it. to be wrong when people double-check it. So, apparently nobody ever said anything So, apparently nobody ever said anything So, apparently nobody ever said anything that's attributed to them in history. that's attributed to them in history. that's attributed to them in history. That's all I can figure. That's all I can figure. That's all I can figure. It's it's it's true. It's it's it's true. It's it's it's true. I I I I ended up digging deep into the I ended up digging deep into the I ended up digging deep into the etymology of things for whatever reason. etymology of things for whatever reason. etymology of things for whatever reason. As as as Clara knows, I As as as Clara knows, I As as as Clara knows, I You own etymology.com. You own etymology.com. You own etymology.com. I I literally bought etymology.com. Um I I literally bought etymology.com. Um I I literally bought etymology.com. Um You did not. You did not. You did not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually know a lot about it. I used I actually know a lot about it. I used I actually know a lot about it. I used to judge you for buying that, but then I to judge you for buying that, but then I to judge you for buying that, but then I realized you actually really do care realized you actually really do care realized you actually really do care about etymology. I really do about etymology. I really do about etymology. I really do That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Um Um Um Well, listen, I guess this means we have Well, listen, I guess this means we have Well, listen, I guess this means we have another show coming eventually. another show coming eventually. another show coming eventually. Whenever, you know, with your spare time Whenever, you know, with your spare time Whenever, you know, with your spare time and your schedule, it'll be in about 25 and your schedule, it'll be in about 25 and your schedule, it'll be in about 25 years, but we'll be right on it. years, but we'll be right on it. years, but we'll be right on it. great. We can go to the etymology of great. We can go to the etymology of great. We can go to the etymology of things like balls to the wall because things like balls to the wall because things like balls to the wall because that that's a perfect that that's a perfect that that's a perfect actually so interesting. Just say No, actually so interesting. Just say No, actually so interesting. Just say No, but just say that one. Just say that but just say that one. Just say that but just say that one. Just say that one. one. one. It's so interesting. The balls to the It's so interesting. The balls to the It's so interesting. The balls to the wall Okay.

wall Okay. wall Okay. It's It is cool. It's It is cool. It's It is cool. Okay, good. That's a perfect thing to Okay, good. That's a perfect thing to Okay, good. That's a perfect thing to end on. What is the etymology of balls end on. What is the etymology of balls end on. What is the etymology of balls to the to the to the Okay, well, um th- these days it may be Okay, well, um th- these days it may be Okay, well, um th- these days it may be confusing when you hear balls to the confusing when you hear balls to the confusing when you hear balls to the wall because presumably you're not wall because presumably you're not wall because presumably you're not suggesting that someone if they're if suggesting that someone if they're if suggesting that someone if they're if they're, you know, have balls uh put they're, you know, have balls uh put they're, you know, have balls uh put them on the wall because why would you them on the wall because why would you them on the wall because why would you ever want to put your balls on a wall? ever want to put your balls on a wall? ever want to put your balls on a wall? Um Um Um But but uh and and so the etymology of But but uh and and so the etymology of But but uh and and so the etymology of this goes back this goes back this goes back to to to many different things. to to to many different things. to to to many different things. Certainly, um in uh World War II, for Certainly, um in uh World War II, for Certainly, um in uh World War II, for example, balls to the wall would be if example, balls to the wall would be if example, balls to the wall would be if it would be max throttle. So, the the it would be max throttle. So, the the it would be max throttle. So, the the the tips of the um the tips of the um the tips of the um of the the throttle lever would be of the the throttle lever would be of the the throttle lever would be balls. balls. balls. And so, balls to the wall would be max And so, balls to the wall would be max And so, balls to the wall would be max throttle. throttle. throttle. Um however, there's something that ugly Um however, there's something that ugly Um however, there's something that ugly predates that, uh predates that, uh predates that, uh which is which is which is um it is um The the way you would um it is um The the way you would um it is um The the way you would control a steam engine was by having uh control a steam engine was by having uh control a steam engine was by having uh two balls spinning um on a cable or a two balls spinning um on a cable or a two balls spinning um on a cable or a rod or or rod or or rod or or I think cable. And and then depending I think cable. And and then depending I think cable. And and then depending upon um how um much throttle you you upon um how um much throttle you you upon um how um much throttle you you wanted, you would you would uh either wanted, you would you would uh either wanted, you would you would uh either crank the the balls in or crank them or crank the the balls in or crank them or crank the the balls in or crank them or crank them out. Um and so, if you crank crank them out. Um and so, if you crank crank them out. Um and so, if you crank them out, balls to the wall would mean them out, balls to the wall would mean them out, balls to the wall would mean again mean uh full throttle for the again mean uh full throttle for the again mean uh full throttle for the steam engine.

steam engine. steam engine. Um I don't know how we didn't start with I don't know how we didn't start with that, man. the the whole balls to the that, man. the the whole balls to the that, man. the the whole balls to the wall situation. He I can't believe we wall situation. He I can't believe we wall situation. He I can't believe we went even like deeper into balls to the went even like deeper into balls to the went even like deeper into balls to the wall. I said wall. I said wall. I said Yeah. Anyway. I I sense an entirely new Yeah. Anyway. I I sense an entirely new Yeah. Anyway. I I sense an entirely new topic taking over. Okay. topic taking over. Okay. topic taking over. Okay. Well, listen. Listen, man, I I've really Well, listen. Listen, man, I I've really Well, listen. Listen, man, I I've really enjoyed this. I've enjoyed having all enjoyed this. I've enjoyed having all enjoyed this. I've enjoyed having all three of you on and let's do this again three of you on and let's do this again three of you on and let's do this again soon, okay? Yeah, actually one final soon, okay? Yeah, actually one final soon, okay? Yeah, actually one final etymology. Uh when you when you say to etymology. Uh when you when you say to etymology. Uh when you when you say to someone give it the whole nine yards, do someone give it the whole nine yards, do someone give it the whole nine yards, do you know what that means? you know what that means? you know what that means? I don't. I don't. I don't. Okay, well, Okay, well, Okay, well, th- this is again a th- this is again a th- this is again a debatable etymology, but the debatable etymology, but the debatable etymology, but the the one of the possible the one of the possible the one of the possible uh origins is the length of an ammo belt uh origins is the length of an ammo belt uh origins is the length of an ammo belt in in in World War II was in in in World War II was in in in World War II was on the order of nine yards. So, giving on the order of nine yards. So, giving on the order of nine yards. So, giving it the whole nine yards means just it the whole nine yards means just it the whole nine yards means just emptying the entire ammo belt on it. emptying the entire ammo belt on it. emptying the entire ammo belt on it. Oh my god. You know what you you know Oh my god. You know what you you know Oh my god. You know what you you know what you made me You know what you made what you made me You know what you made what you made me You know what you made me think of. me think of. me think of. Um Um Um I'll tell you what you made me think of I'll tell you what you made me think of I'll tell you what you made me think of and it's the craziest thing to have have and it's the craziest thing to have have and it's the craziest thing to have have have come from what you just said, but I have come from what you just said, but I have come from what you just said, but I got a tour once of the Westminster got a tour once of the Westminster got a tour once of the Westminster School, which is attached to Westminster School, which is attached to Westminster School, which is attached to Westminster Abbey uh in London. And it's been around Abbey uh in London. And it's been around Abbey uh in London. And it's been around since forever. I mean, like the Middle since forever. I mean, like the Middle since forever. I mean, like the Middle Ages practically. So, they're giving me Ages practically. So, they're giving me Ages practically. So, they're giving me the tour. The students are giving me the the tour. The students are giving me the the tour. The students are giving me the tour. And between classes, they have tour. And between classes, they have tour. And between classes, they have It's not a handball court, but it's a It's not a handball court, but it's a It's not a handball court, but it's a place where they kind of play something place where they kind of play something place where they kind of play something like handball. And it's in a in a like handball. And it's in a in a like handball. And it's in a in a specific area that just is, you know, specific area that just is, you know, specific area that just is, you know, where there's walls to bounce stuff off where there's walls to bounce stuff off where there's walls to bounce stuff off of and everything. And the guy says to of and everything. And the guy says to of and everything. And the guy says to me, "We have all these house rules. Like me, "We have all these house rules. Like me, "We have all these house rules. Like if the ball goes over there, it's two

if the ball goes over there, it's two if the ball goes over there, it's two points. If the ball goes over there, points. If the ball goes over there, points. If the ball goes over there, it's out of bounds." And I said, "Oh, I it's out of bounds." And I said, "Oh, I it's out of bounds." And I said, "Oh, I said, well, when did they make these said, well, when did they make these said, well, when did they make these rules?" He said, "In the Middle Ages." rules?" He said, "In the Middle Ages." rules?" He said, "In the Middle Ages." He said, "So So, all of the little house He said, "So So, all of the little house He said, "So So, all of the little house rules that they still played with and rules that they still played with and rules that they still played with and you said balls to the wall, that's what you said balls to the wall, that's what you said balls to the wall, that's what it was. It was a ball on the wall." And it was. It was a ball on the wall." And it was. It was a ball on the wall." And all I could think of was here are a all I could think of was here are a all I could think of was here are a bunch of students today who have no idea bunch of students today who have no idea bunch of students today who have no idea really of history or anything like that. really of history or anything like that. really of history or anything like that. And yet they're playing a game where the And yet they're playing a game where the And yet they're playing a game where the house rules that they still play under house rules that they still play under house rules that they still play under were invented centuries ago. I just were invented centuries ago. I just were invented centuries ago. I just thought that was hilarious. Yeah, I thought that was hilarious. Yeah, I thought that was hilarious. Yeah, I could go on and on about could go on and on about could go on and on about word the etymology. Que sera sera is Oh, word the etymology. Que sera sera is Oh, word the etymology. Que sera sera is Oh, no, no, no, we're not no, no, no, we're not no, no, no, we're not literally no. No que sera sera? Que sera literally no. No que sera sera? Que sera literally no. No que sera sera? Que sera sera is not Spanish. sera is not Spanish. sera is not Spanish. It's it's English. It's it's English. It's it's English. It's English stolen from Latin. It's English stolen from Latin. It's English stolen from Latin. About 500 years ago. There's There's About 500 years ago. There's There's About 500 years ago. There's There's like a Wikipedia hole for like and it like a Wikipedia hole for like and it like a Wikipedia hole for like and it means nothing like the Latin Latin means nothing like the Latin Latin means nothing like the Latin Latin phrase. Do we want to know what it means phrase. Do we want to know what it means phrase. Do we want to know what it means or is this something you'd better leave or is this something you'd better leave or is this something you'd better leave the audience hanging with? the audience hanging with? the audience hanging with? sera sera is like whatever will be will sera sera is like whatever will be will sera sera is like whatever will be will be um be um be um is uh is uh is uh but it's it's actually it's technically but it's it's actually it's technically but it's it's actually it's technically an English phrase because it's it it was an English phrase because it's it it was an English phrase because it's it it was bastardized from Latin. Uh but the bastardized from Latin. Uh but the bastardized from Latin. Uh but the phrase in Latin doesn't mean the same phrase in Latin doesn't mean the same phrase in Latin doesn't mean the same thing. And um thing. And um thing. And um a lot of people think it's it's Spanish a lot of people think it's it's Spanish a lot of people think it's it's Spanish or Italian or something like that, but or Italian or something like that, but or Italian or something like that, but it's it's actually an English English it's it's actually an English English it's it's actually an English English phrase. Uh phrase. Uh phrase. Uh and and it's been been used for like 500 and and it's been been used for like 500 and and it's been been used for like 500 years. Um and it actually it it means it years. Um and it actually it it means it years. Um and it actually it it means it basically implies basically implies basically implies uh uh uh a a cheery fatalism.

My thanks to Elon Musk and Bill Riley My thanks to Elon Musk and Bill Riley from SpaceX for coming on the program from SpaceX for coming on the program from SpaceX for coming on the program today. today. today. And you know what was funny is I was And you know what was funny is I was And you know what was funny is I was listening to that during editing, listening to that during editing, listening to that during editing, it reminded me of my concept of Hardcore it reminded me of my concept of Hardcore it reminded me of my concept of Hardcore History when it first appeared in my History when it first appeared in my History when it first appeared in my brain before we'd done any work and it brain before we'd done any work and it brain before we'd done any work and it had evolved in any way, shape, or form. had evolved in any way, shape, or form. had evolved in any way, shape, or form. I thought about it as a continuation of I thought about it as a continuation of I thought about it as a continuation of the sorts of conversations that we used the sorts of conversations that we used the sorts of conversations that we used to have as history geeks when I was a to have as history geeks when I was a to have as history geeks when I was a history major in college. history major in college. history major in college. And questions like would you would you And questions like would you would you And questions like would you would you rather be the better pilot in the rather be the better pilot in the rather be the better pilot in the inferior aircraft or the inferior pilot inferior aircraft or the inferior pilot inferior aircraft or the inferior pilot in the superior aircraft? I mean, that in the superior aircraft? I mean, that in the superior aircraft? I mean, that kind of thing kind of thing kind of thing in my head I thought, "Okay, this is in my head I thought, "Okay, this is in my head I thought, "Okay, this is what we'll do with this Hardcore History what we'll do with this Hardcore History what we'll do with this Hardcore History thing." Now, it didn't obviously go in thing." Now, it didn't obviously go in thing." Now, it didn't obviously go in that direction. Um but this is the kind that direction. Um but this is the kind that direction. Um but this is the kind of thing where I could talk about this of thing where I could talk about this of thing where I could talk about this all day. This is the the light all day. This is the the light all day. This is the the light conversation I like to have. conversation I like to have. conversation I like to have. Which is my my sister always says, Which is my my sister always says, Which is my my sister always says, "You're so weird." But, you know, "You're so weird." But, you know, "You're so weird." But, you know, there are worse things, right? Um there are worse things, right? Um there are worse things, right? Um speaking of, you know, the speaking of, you know, the speaking of, you know, the strange and perhaps hard to purchase for strange and perhaps hard to purchase for strange and perhaps hard to purchase for for the holidays. Uh you know, you may for the holidays. Uh you know, you may for the holidays. Uh you know, you may have a loved one or family member that have a loved one or family member that have a loved one or family member that you're having a hard time finding a good you're having a hard time finding a good you're having a hard time finding a good gift for them cuz they're interested in gift for them cuz they're interested in gift for them cuz they're interested in the extremes of the human experience and the extremes of the human experience and the extremes of the human experience and you just can't get that at the local big you just can't get that at the local big you just can't get that at the local big box store always. Uh you can get it off box store always. Uh you can get it off box store always. Uh you can get it off of our website though. Um the old shows of our website though. Um the old shows of our website though. Um the old shows that are no longer on the free feed are that are no longer on the free feed are that are no longer on the free feed are available from the website. You can We available from the website. You can We available from the website. You can We have a new system to purchase them, too, have a new system to purchase them, too, have a new system to purchase them, too, if you want to use it called the Glow if you want to use it called the Glow if you want to use it called the Glow system. Should make it easier for people system. Should make it easier for people system. Should make it easier for people with certain kinds of podcast players.

with certain kinds of podcast players. with certain kinds of podcast players. We have gift certificates for loved We have gift certificates for loved We have gift certificates for loved ones. We have some new merch with new ones. We have some new merch with new ones. We have some new merch with new designs that is just, you know, dropped designs that is just, you know, dropped designs that is just, you know, dropped uh t-shirts, hats, that kind of thing. uh t-shirts, hats, that kind of thing. uh t-shirts, hats, that kind of thing. So, if you're interested in all that So, if you're interested in all that So, if you're interested in all that stuff, it's out there. stuff, it's out there. stuff, it's out there. dancarlin.com dancarlin.com dancarlin.com Uh I won't go into it too deeply just to Uh I won't go into it too deeply just to Uh I won't go into it too deeply just to say that there are some, you know, some say that there are some, you know, some say that there are some, you know, some uh illnesses and infirmities in the uh illnesses and infirmities in the uh illnesses and infirmities in the family right now that are are preventing family right now that are are preventing family right now that are are preventing me from getting to the big Hardcore me from getting to the big Hardcore me from getting to the big Hardcore History recording, which never goes as History recording, which never goes as History recording, which never goes as quickly as we'd like anyway. So, I quickly as we'd like anyway. So, I quickly as we'd like anyway. So, I apologize for the lateness of it all. apologize for the lateness of it all. apologize for the lateness of it all. Not just that, but it's one of those Not just that, but it's one of those Not just that, but it's one of those topics that we're trying to be very topics that we're trying to be very topics that we're trying to be very careful with. A little incendiary in our careful with. A little incendiary in our careful with. A little incendiary in our current um zeitgeist, for lack of a current um zeitgeist, for lack of a current um zeitgeist, for lack of a better word. So, um apologies. Patience, better word. So, um apologies. Patience, better word. So, um apologies. Patience, please. We'll get to it and hopefully please. We'll get to it and hopefully please. We'll get to it and hopefully you think it's worth it when we do. you think it's worth it when we do. you think it's worth it when we do. Finally, um Finally, um Finally, um I do want you all to know, and I mean I do want you all to know, and I mean I do want you all to know, and I mean this. I mean, people say things all the this. I mean, people say things all the this. I mean, people say things all the time that are just sort of platitudes. time that are just sort of platitudes. time that are just sort of platitudes. Uh it's been, historically speaking, a Uh it's been, historically speaking, a Uh it's been, historically speaking, a hard last 2 years for us all. I mean, on hard last 2 years for us all. I mean, on hard last 2 years for us all. I mean, on a global level. a global level. a global level. I don't know what the next year holds. I don't know what the next year holds. I don't know what the next year holds. But, um But, um But, um you know, I hope it's better for all of you know, I hope it's better for all of you know, I hope it's better for all of us. And I think here's the thing. You us. And I think here's the thing. You us. And I think here's the thing. You know, history can obviously break any know, history can obviously break any know, history can obviously break any number of different ways. And I'm a number of different ways. And I'm a number of different ways. And I'm a little pessimistic usually. So, I always little pessimistic usually. So, I always little pessimistic usually. So, I always assume the worst. But, let's not forget assume the worst. But, let's not forget assume the worst. But, let's not forget that things can turn on a dime in that things can turn on a dime in that things can turn on a dime in strange directions. And that means strange directions. And that means strange directions. And that means directions that are improvements for all directions that are improvements for all directions that are improvements for all of us as well, whatever you might of us as well, whatever you might of us as well, whatever you might consider improvements to be.

consider improvements to be. consider improvements to be. Regardless, um let's remember, whatever Regardless, um let's remember, whatever Regardless, um let's remember, whatever your beliefs, your beliefs, your beliefs, your thoughts, wherever you may live, your thoughts, wherever you may live, your thoughts, wherever you may live, and whatever your circumstances, believe and whatever your circumstances, believe and whatever your circumstances, believe it or not, as strange as this sounds, as it or not, as strange as this sounds, as it or not, as strange as this sounds, as much of a platitude as this sounds, much of a platitude as this sounds, much of a platitude as this sounds, we're all in this together. we're all in this together. we're all in this together. And I always um like to think that if And I always um like to think that if And I always um like to think that if you and I, you and I, you and I, whomever you may be, whomever you may be, whomever you may be, simply sat down over a cup of coffee or simply sat down over a cup of coffee or simply sat down over a cup of coffee or tea or something, um tea or something, um tea or something, um we could have a good conversation, find we could have a good conversation, find we could have a good conversation, find commonalities, commonalities, commonalities, and ways to get along and enjoy each and ways to get along and enjoy each and ways to get along and enjoy each other. other. other. And that's my story and I'm sticking to And that's my story and I'm sticking to And that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And that's coming from a person it. And that's coming from a person it. And that's coming from a person who's basically pessimistic. So, who's basically pessimistic. So, who's basically pessimistic. So, if you're optimistic, the sky's the if you're optimistic, the sky's the if you're optimistic, the sky's the limit. Stay safe, everybody. Have a limit. Stay safe, everybody. Have a limit. Stay safe, everybody. Have a wonderful 2022. wonderful 2022. wonderful 2022. And I hope I'm talking to you a lot over And I hope I'm talking to you a lot over And I hope I'm talking to you a lot over the next year. Support us with Patreon by going to Support us with Patreon by going to patreon.com/dancarlin or go to our donate page at or go to our donate page at dancarlin.com/dc-donate.

You may have heard me talk about Battle You may have heard me talk about Battle Guide Virtual Tours recently. Guide Virtual Tours recently. Guide Virtual Tours recently. Um, it's a it's a group of folk in um Um, it's a it's a group of folk in um Um, it's a it's a group of folk in um in Europe who were doing live tours when in Europe who were doing live tours when in Europe who were doing live tours when COVID hit COVID hit COVID hit and had to try to figure out like so and had to try to figure out like so and had to try to figure out like so many other people how you reimagine a many other people how you reimagine a many other people how you reimagine a business for business for business for you know, during a time of of a pandemic you know, during a time of of a pandemic you know, during a time of of a pandemic and they came up with something and they came up with something and they came up with something that it's one of those things that you that it's one of those things that you that it's one of those things that you never would have thought about it if you never would have thought about it if you never would have thought about it if you hadn't been forced to because of hadn't been forced to because of hadn't been forced to because of something like the pandemic, but because something like the pandemic, but because something like the pandemic, but because you came up with the idea, it's a you came up with the idea, it's a you came up with the idea, it's a brilliant idea and it brings battlefield brilliant idea and it brings battlefield brilliant idea and it brings battlefield tours to all sorts of people who tours to all sorts of people who tours to all sorts of people who couldn't be expected to make it out to couldn't be expected to make it out to couldn't be expected to make it out to all those battlefields in person. all those battlefields in person. all those battlefields in person. And even if you're lucky enough to make And even if you're lucky enough to make And even if you're lucky enough to make it to one or two, it to one or two, it to one or two, um wouldn't it be nice to be able to go um wouldn't it be nice to be able to go um wouldn't it be nice to be able to go to 20 or 30? Well, maybe you could do to 20 or 30? Well, maybe you could do to 20 or 30? Well, maybe you could do that virtually and now with Battle Guide that virtually and now with Battle Guide that virtually and now with Battle Guide Virtual Tours you can. It's one of those Virtual Tours you can. It's one of those Virtual Tours you can. It's one of those things you kind of have to see to get a things you kind of have to see to get a things you kind of have to see to get a sense of, but basically they combine sense of, but basically they combine sense of, but basically they combine satellite and drone imagery, a live satellite and drone imagery, a live satellite and drone imagery, a live historian, historian, historian, um um um eyewitness accounts, period footage. I eyewitness accounts, period footage. I eyewitness accounts, period footage. I mean, it's all blended blended together mean, it's all blended blended together mean, it's all blended blended together to give you a real sense of a given to give you a real sense of a given to give you a real sense of a given battle and what's going on and what the battle and what's going on and what the battle and what's going on and what the challenges are and what it was like on challenges are and what it was like on challenges are and what it was like on the ground and visually give you a real the ground and visually give you a real the ground and visually give you a real sense of of what you're seeing. Battles sense of of what you're seeing. Battles sense of of what you're seeing. Battles are notoriously difficult sometimes to are notoriously difficult sometimes to are notoriously difficult sometimes to get a real sense of. This is probably get a real sense of. This is probably get a real sense of. This is probably the best way to do it.

the best way to do it. the best way to do it. And if you want to get a sense of what And if you want to get a sense of what And if you want to get a sense of what that's like, um that's like, um that's like, um you know, throwing my name around can you know, throwing my name around can you know, throwing my name around can get you a 50% discount right now if you get you a 50% discount right now if you get you a 50% discount right now if you go to battleguide.co.uk go to battleguide.co.uk go to battleguide.co.uk /dan-carlin /dan-carlin /dan-carlin and uh and get a look at it and just see and uh and get a look at it and just see and uh and get a look at it and just see what we're talking about here. Uh there what we're talking about here. Uh there what we're talking about here. Uh there are two kinds of tours basically. Uh the are two kinds of tours basically. Uh the are two kinds of tours basically. Uh the live ones where if you catch it when live ones where if you catch it when live ones where if you catch it when it's going on, you can participate. It's it's going on, you can participate. It's it's going on, you can participate. It's a Q&A kind of thing. Um and it's a Q&A kind of thing. Um and it's a Q&A kind of thing. Um and it's happening you know, while you're happening you know, while you're happening you know, while you're watching, but then those things are watching, but then those things are watching, but then those things are saved to be accessed later and you can saved to be accessed later and you can saved to be accessed later and you can go watch all the the previous tours and go watch all the the previous tours and go watch all the the previous tours and and and access it that way at your and and access it that way at your and and access it that way at your convenience also. Lots of different convenience also. Lots of different convenience also. Lots of different options including gift certificates for options including gift certificates for options including gift certificates for people you know, that might be a little people you know, that might be a little people you know, that might be a little bit difficult to buy gifts for. Find bit difficult to buy gifts for. Find bit difficult to buy gifts for. Find something unusual. Maybe they'd like, something unusual. Maybe they'd like, something unusual. Maybe they'd like, you know, a gift certificate giving them you know, a gift certificate giving them you know, a gift certificate giving them several battlefield tours. But as I several battlefield tours. But as I several battlefield tours. But as I said, why don't you take the 50% offer said, why don't you take the 50% offer said, why don't you take the 50% offer here and check it out for yourself at here and check it out for yourself at here and check it out for yourself at battleguide.co.uk/dan-carlin and uh and get a virtual battlefield and uh and get a virtual battlefield tour yourself at Battle Guide Virtual tour yourself at Battle Guide Virtual tour yourself at Battle Guide Virtual Tours.