EP15 The Supernova Coda

there's an interesting there's an interesting sort of phenomenon i guess you could sort of phenomenon i guess you could sort of phenomenon i guess you could call it that happens after we get a call it that happens after we get a call it that happens after we get a hardcore history series hardcore history series hardcore history series finished you begin to hear from people finished you begin to hear from people finished you begin to hear from people that are connected with the subject that are connected with the subject that are connected with the subject matter and you get opportunities for matter and you get opportunities for matter and you get opportunities for example to talk to them or to interview example to talk to them or to interview example to talk to them or to interview them them them and the upside is um and the upside is um and the upside is um they're usually people that you would they're usually people that you would they're usually people that you would really like to talk to the downside is really like to talk to the downside is really like to talk to the downside is you've just finished up usually a lot of you've just finished up usually a lot of you've just finished up usually a lot of work and a lot of conversation and a lot work and a lot of conversation and a lot work and a lot of conversation and a lot of the audience's time on the subject of the audience's time on the subject of the audience's time on the subject matter so everybody's usually ready for matter so everybody's usually ready for matter so everybody's usually ready for something new but then you get all these something new but then you get all these something new but then you get all these opportunities that are too good to turn opportunities that are too good to turn opportunities that are too good to turn down that are on the bit of subject down that are on the bit of subject down that are on the bit of subject matter you've just covered matter you've just covered matter you've just covered uh extensively uh extensively uh extensively and that's the case today now actually and that's the case today now actually and that's the case today now actually we've held on to this show for several we've held on to this show for several we've held on to this show for several months months months the author has a the author has a the author has a that we're going to talk to has a that we're going to talk to has a that we're going to talk to has a new new new three set book compilation coming out three set book compilation coming out three set book compilation coming out and it's been delayed i imagine november and it's been delayed i imagine november and it's been delayed i imagine november 2021 is probably a safe bet for it at 2021 is probably a safe bet for it at 2021 is probably a safe bet for it at some point though some point though some point though and so we were holding on to this so and so we were holding on to this so and so we were holding on to this so that we could release this and have it that we could release this and have it that we could release this and have it coincide with the um the new offering coincide with the um the new offering coincide with the um the new offering but what that means is i've actually got but what that means is i've actually got but what that means is i've actually got another show ready to come out real soon another show ready to come out real soon another show ready to come out real soon right after this it's going to be right after this it's going to be right after this it's going to be another interview with another author another interview with another author another interview with another author and this one won't be about the subject and this one won't be about the subject and this one won't be about the subject we've recently talked about we've recently talked about we've recently talked about so um one way or another we should have so um one way or another we should have so um one way or another we should have a couple of things for you in quick a couple of things for you in quick a couple of things for you in quick succession which is good because succession which is good because succession which is good because because we held on to this we didn't because we held on to this we didn't because we held on to this we didn't have anything coming out have anything coming out have anything coming out a couple months ago as we planned so a couple months ago as we planned so a couple months ago as we planned so you're due a couple of shows in quick you're due a couple of shows in quick you're due a couple of shows in quick succession succession succession this one's with an author whose work i this one's with an author whose work i this one's with an author whose work i enjoyed so much and and some of my enjoyed so much and and some of my enjoyed so much and and some of my favorite little things that we included favorite little things that we included favorite little things that we included these little hits by a a little quote by

these little hits by a a little quote by these little hits by a a little quote by an author some of my favorite ones were an author some of my favorite ones were an author some of my favorite ones were by ian w toll by ian w toll by ian w toll and uh and uh and uh he has multiple books besides these he has multiple books besides these he has multiple books besides these three but these three from start to three but these three from start to three but these three from start to finish cover finish cover finish cover the pacific war in the second world war the pacific war in the second world war the pacific war in the second world war from about pearl harbor to the end from about pearl harbor to the end from about pearl harbor to the end pacific crucible followed by the pacific crucible followed by the pacific crucible followed by the conquering tide conquering tide conquering tide followed by twilight of the gods any one followed by twilight of the gods any one followed by twilight of the gods any one of these of course can be bought of these of course can be bought of these of course can be bought separately but with a three-book separately but with a three-book separately but with a three-book compilation coming out we assume in compilation coming out we assume in compilation coming out we assume in november uh ian w tells um november uh ian w tells um november uh ian w tells um you know his combined work on on this you know his combined work on on this you know his combined work on on this specific theater in the second world war specific theater in the second world war specific theater in the second world war will be complete and available and he's will be complete and available and he's will be complete and available and he's wonderful and so when his people called wonderful and so when his people called wonderful and so when his people called uh right after we finished the six part uh right after we finished the six part uh right after we finished the six part series on the war in the asia pacific series on the war in the asia pacific series on the war in the asia pacific theater and said would you like to talk theater and said would you like to talk theater and said would you like to talk to e w toll i said what you would expect to e w toll i said what you would expect to e w toll i said what you would expect me to say even though we've talked about me to say even though we've talked about me to say even though we've talked about this subject a lot recently i said yes this subject a lot recently i said yes this subject a lot recently i said yes please please please so without further ado so without further ado so without further ado our conversation with author ian w toll our conversation with author ian w toll our conversation with author ian w toll [Laughter] obviously you know that i've done 27 obviously you know that i've done 27 hours recently on this subject and i'm hours recently on this subject and i'm hours recently on this subject and i'm sure the audience is going to groan when sure the audience is going to groan when sure the audience is going to groan when they see i have more of it they see i have more of it they see i have more of it but what i'd like to do maybe as you but what i'd like to do maybe as you but what i'd like to do maybe as you know know know and i i consider the conversation maybe and i i consider the conversation maybe and i i consider the conversation maybe to be going now we're recording anyway to be going now we're recording anyway to be going now we're recording anyway but but um but but um but but um with a guy who has lived this like with a guy who has lived this like with a guy who has lived this like you've lived it uh you know not just the you've lived it uh you know not just the you've lived it uh you know not just the writing of the books and the research writing of the books and the research writing of the books and the research but the speeches that you have to give but the speeches that you have to give but the speeches that you have to give and everything else um i imagine that and everything else um i imagine that and everything else um i imagine that you have all kinds of ideas in your head

you have all kinds of ideas in your head you have all kinds of ideas in your head of things that have happened that make of things that have happened that make of things that have happened that make this conflict wild and crazy is there this conflict wild and crazy is there this conflict wild and crazy is there something that you wish the general something that you wish the general something that you wish the general public and i feel like my audience now public and i feel like my audience now public and i feel like my audience now has 27 hours of this so what can we tell has 27 hours of this so what can we tell has 27 hours of this so what can we tell them about this war that is unusual or them about this war that is unusual or them about this war that is unusual or interesting or if you could say that you interesting or if you could say that you interesting or if you could say that you wish the general public knew something wish the general public knew something wish the general public knew something about this war that you know what would about this war that you know what would about this war that you know what would it be it be it be well i mean there's a couple i mean well i mean there's a couple i mean well i mean there's a couple i mean there's there's there's there's just so many things i could i there's just so many things i could i there's just so many things i could i could say an answer to that question but could say an answer to that question but could say an answer to that question but uh uh uh um um um why don't we why don't we say this um why don't we why don't we say this um why don't we why don't we say this um that i as a continental nation we that i as a continental nation we that i as a continental nation we americans uh we tend to think of of war americans uh we tend to think of of war americans uh we tend to think of of war as as as war on land before anything else and and war on land before anything else and and war on land before anything else and and naval operations are a supporting naval operations are a supporting naval operations are a supporting feature of war so supporting operation feature of war so supporting operation feature of war so supporting operation and um in the second world war i mean and um in the second world war i mean and um in the second world war i mean that certainly was true the war in that certainly was true the war in that certainly was true the war in europe uh i think you could say naval europe uh i think you could say naval europe uh i think you could say naval operations were operations were operations were uh a supporting uh aspect of the of the uh a supporting uh aspect of the of the uh a supporting uh aspect of the of the campaign campaign campaign and then you need to invert your and then you need to invert your and then you need to invert your understanding when you come to the understanding when you come to the understanding when you come to the pacific you really need to just look at pacific you really need to just look at pacific you really need to just look at the map of the pacific and you you see the map of the pacific and you you see the map of the pacific and you you see this is a sea war and an air war first this is a sea war and an air war first this is a sea war and an air war first and uh land operations these island um and uh land operations these island um and uh land operations these island um island fights were played a sort of island fights were played a sort of island fights were played a sort of supporting role in in the larger scheme supporting role in in the larger scheme supporting role in in the larger scheme and so you know just from the very and so you know just from the very and so you know just from the very beginning i think you need to invert beginning i think you need to invert beginning i think you need to invert your understanding in that way and once your understanding in that way and once your understanding in that way and once you do that you do that you do that uh the this this vast conflict the uh the this this vast conflict the uh the this this vast conflict the pacific war becomes much easier to pacific war becomes much easier to pacific war becomes much easier to understand

understand understand you know as an american uh one of the you know as an american uh one of the you know as an american uh one of the things that we really didn't get much of things that we really didn't get much of things that we really didn't get much of i mean i have a life goes to war book i mean i have a life goes to war book i mean i have a life goes to war book that probably came out in 1950 and if that probably came out in 1950 and if that probably came out in 1950 and if you leap through the pages the vast vast you leap through the pages the vast vast you leap through the pages the vast vast majority of this work is about the majority of this work is about the majority of this work is about the pacific theater the battles that pacific theater the battles that pacific theater the battles that americans uh who follow the exploits of americans uh who follow the exploits of americans uh who follow the exploits of the marines or macarthur are very the marines or macarthur are very the marines or macarthur are very familiar with the terroirs the pelelius familiar with the terroirs the pelelius familiar with the terroirs the pelelius the iwo jimas the iwo jimas the iwo jimas but the whole asia side of this conflict but the whole asia side of this conflict but the whole asia side of this conflict is enormous once you delve into it once is enormous once you delve into it once is enormous once you delve into it once you start to realize how many people are you start to realize how many people are you start to realize how many people are involved um why is and you know also i involved um why is and you know also i involved um why is and you know also i didn't even think about this but i mean didn't even think about this but i mean didn't even think about this but i mean five years later we're in a war in korea five years later we're in a war in korea five years later we're in a war in korea we have chinese troops entering the war we have chinese troops entering the war we have chinese troops entering the war after a certain point i mean that's all after a certain point i mean that's all after a certain point i mean that's all directly connected to the fallout uh directly connected to the fallout uh directly connected to the fallout uh from this asia-pacific war um why don't from this asia-pacific war um why don't from this asia-pacific war um why don't americans know more and this includes americans know more and this includes americans know more and this includes yours truly why don't we know more about yours truly why don't we know more about yours truly why don't we know more about the the giant you know you mentioned the the the giant you know you mentioned the the the giant you know you mentioned the naval war which it is to the united naval war which it is to the united naval war which it is to the united states but there was a giant land war in states but there was a giant land war in states but there was a giant land war in asia also right asia also right asia also right well well well you know i mean the simplest way to to you know i mean the simplest way to to you know i mean the simplest way to to answer that is just that you know we answer that is just that you know we answer that is just that you know we weren't involved in that war in a big weren't involved in that war in a big weren't involved in that war in a big way and and americans way and and americans way and and americans like most people we we tend to be most like most people we we tend to be most like most people we we tend to be most interested in the aspects of a conflict interested in the aspects of a conflict interested in the aspects of a conflict in which our boys in which our boys in which our boys were directly involved so i think that were directly involved so i think that were directly involved so i think that goes part of the way to explaining that goes part of the way to explaining that goes part of the way to explaining that um i think it's also true that uh um i think it's also true that uh um i think it's also true that uh because because because mao's china mao's china mao's china communists won the civil war after uh communists won the civil war after uh communists won the civil war after uh the end of the second world war the end of the second world war the end of the second world war um china became for many years and many um china became for many years and many um china became for many years and many ways still is

ways still is ways still is somewhat of a black box from the outside somewhat of a black box from the outside somewhat of a black box from the outside uh and so uh and so uh and so the the telling of the of the story the the the telling of the of the story the the the telling of the of the story the history of that war history of that war history of that war uh was something that was controlled uh was something that was controlled uh was something that was controlled directly by mao's regime directly by mao's regime directly by mao's regime and um and there was just a limited um and um and there was just a limited um and um and there was just a limited um access access access to that country to that country to that country in order to try to tell that story i i in order to try to tell that story i i in order to try to tell that story i i think that think that think that there are good efforts now to try to there are good efforts now to try to there are good efforts now to try to rectify this to place the sino-japanese rectify this to place the sino-japanese rectify this to place the sino-japanese war back war back war back in the center of the story of in the center of the story of in the center of the story of asia and the pacific uh and my colleague asia and the pacific uh and my colleague asia and the pacific uh and my colleague richard frank is is writing another richard frank is is writing another richard frank is is writing another trilogy about the asia pacific wars he trilogy about the asia pacific wars he trilogy about the asia pacific wars he calls it in which he's he's trying to calls it in which he's he's trying to calls it in which he's he's trying to rectify that bias and and so i commend rectify that bias and and so i commend rectify that bias and and so i commend uh that work the first of his three uh that work the first of his three uh that work the first of his three volumes is out volumes is out volumes is out you know when you look at the you know when you look at the you know when you look at the amount of amount of amount of the amount of resources we would say gdp the amount of resources we would say gdp the amount of resources we would say gdp today all the things that japan a small today all the things that japan a small today all the things that japan a small island nation had to island nation had to island nation had to uh set aside and devote for naval uh set aside and devote for naval uh set aside and devote for naval construction you know over the 20s and construction you know over the 20s and construction you know over the 20s and the 30s and into the 40s the 30s and into the 40s the 30s and into the 40s modern aircraft development and and modern aircraft development and and modern aircraft development and and millions of men on the ground who need millions of men on the ground who need millions of men on the ground who need to be supported in asia to be supported in asia to be supported in asia you look at this and you just think to you look at this and you just think to you look at this and you just think to yourself and i think we said in the yourself and i think we said in the yourself and i think we said in the podcast i mean the japanese were already podcast i mean the japanese were already podcast i mean the japanese were already trying to eat an elephant in terms of of trying to eat an elephant in terms of of trying to eat an elephant in terms of of the task that they had set for the task that they had set for the task that they had set for themselves before they even attacked themselves before they even attacked themselves before they even attacked pearl harbor then to attack the pearl harbor then to attack the pearl harbor then to attack the strongest western nations on top of that strongest western nations on top of that strongest western nations on top of that i read an account of one historian who i read an account of one historian who i read an account of one historian who had said that a japanese i'm trying to had said that a japanese i'm trying to had said that a japanese i'm trying to quote from memory here a japanese poet

quote from memory here a japanese poet quote from memory here a japanese poet had described the war as like a snow a had described the war as like a snow a had described the war as like a snow a slow-motion natural disaster suggesting slow-motion natural disaster suggesting slow-motion natural disaster suggesting that the japanese felt like they were that the japanese felt like they were that the japanese felt like they were almost like pulled into it like a almost like pulled into it like a almost like pulled into it like a riptide um riptide um riptide um when you look at something like this when you look at something like this when you look at something like this does it look like the japanese hadn't i does it look like the japanese hadn't i does it look like the japanese hadn't i mean i feel like they had no chance from mean i feel like they had no chance from mean i feel like they had no chance from the get-go uh how does this look to you the get-go uh how does this look to you the get-go uh how does this look to you when you i mean you've examined uh all when you i mean you've examined uh all when you i mean you've examined uh all of the records you've looked at this um of the records you've looked at this um of the records you've looked at this um how do you i guess they were optimists how do you i guess they were optimists how do you i guess they were optimists certainly but i mean you guys have guys certainly but i mean you guys have guys certainly but i mean you guys have guys like the whole naval staff everybody was like the whole naval staff everybody was like the whole naval staff everybody was so pessimistic about that how do you so pessimistic about that how do you so pessimistic about that how do you think this um think this um think this um i guess what i'm saying is do you see it i guess what i'm saying is do you see it i guess what i'm saying is do you see it as a one-sided affair from the get-go or as a one-sided affair from the get-go or as a one-sided affair from the get-go or did the japanese have a chance to do did the japanese have a chance to do did the japanese have a chance to do something really unexpected here something really unexpected here something really unexpected here you know when i consider the you know when i consider the you know when i consider the counter-factual stand i find it very counter-factual stand i find it very counter-factual stand i find it very hard to imagine any scenario where the hard to imagine any scenario where the hard to imagine any scenario where the japanese could have japanese could have japanese could have escaped this conflict uh with um escaped this conflict uh with um escaped this conflict uh with um in in a better situation than they were in in a better situation than they were in in a better situation than they were on december 6 1941 the day before they on december 6 1941 the day before they on december 6 1941 the day before they attacked pearl harbor it's almost attacked pearl harbor it's almost attacked pearl harbor it's almost impossible to imagine a scenario where impossible to imagine a scenario where impossible to imagine a scenario where uh the war ends up working out for them uh the war ends up working out for them uh the war ends up working out for them and uh and uh and uh really what what the pacific war was really what what the pacific war was really what what the pacific war was from the japanese perspective was it was from the japanese perspective was it was from the japanese perspective was it was an enormous bet an enormous bet an enormous bet that uh that hitler was going to that uh that hitler was going to that uh that hitler was going to dominate europe dominate europe dominate europe and um and and that by dominating europe and um and and that by dominating europe and um and and that by dominating europe he was essentially going to keep the he was essentially going to keep the he was essentially going to keep the united states forever on the defensive united states forever on the defensive united states forever on the defensive worried about the security of our own worried about the security of our own worried about the security of our own hemisphere of south america hemisphere of south america hemisphere of south america and that in that situation we just would and that in that situation we just would and that in that situation we just would not uh be able to fight a prolonged not uh be able to fight a prolonged not uh be able to fight a prolonged bloody war uh in the pacific

bloody war uh in the pacific bloody war uh in the pacific now of course that was a very bad bet now of course that was a very bad bet now of course that was a very bad bet and it was a bet that was made and it was a bet that was made and it was a bet that was made you know right at the moment when the you know right at the moment when the you know right at the moment when the german army was being stopped outside german army was being stopped outside german army was being stopped outside the gates of moscow you know a lot about the gates of moscow you know a lot about the gates of moscow you know a lot about this i know you did this i know you did this i know you did like a six-parter on the uh on the war like a six-parter on the uh on the war like a six-parter on the uh on the war in the eastern front in the eastern front in the eastern front and um and and one of the leaders of the and um and and one of the leaders of the and um and and one of the leaders of the japanese regime i forget who in japanese regime i forget who in japanese regime i forget who in being interrogated after the war said being interrogated after the war said being interrogated after the war said you know if um if if we had made this you know if um if if we had made this you know if um if if we had made this decision just two weeks later we might decision just two weeks later we might decision just two weeks later we might have looked at what was happening in uh have looked at what was happening in uh have looked at what was happening in uh in russia in russia in russia and and uh perceived that this was not and and uh perceived that this was not and and uh perceived that this was not going to be a walk over for the germans going to be a walk over for the germans going to be a walk over for the germans the way it appeared that it was going to the way it appeared that it was going to the way it appeared that it was going to be in the in the early months and that be in the in the early months and that be in the in the early months and that might have caused us to think twice might have caused us to think twice might have caused us to think twice about attacking the americans uh in about attacking the americans uh in about attacking the americans uh in pearl harbor and so pearl harbor and so pearl harbor and so with that in mind when i when i go with that in mind when i when i go with that in mind when i when i go through the counter factuals i think the through the counter factuals i think the through the counter factuals i think the one thing that could have really tipped one thing that could have really tipped one thing that could have really tipped the balance the balance the balance uh throughout the world really but also uh throughout the world really but also uh throughout the world really but also in the pacific in the pacific in the pacific would be a russian collapse um and and would be a russian collapse um and and would be a russian collapse um and and some form of a truce on the russian some form of a truce on the russian some form of a truce on the russian front uh stalin had essentially repeated front uh stalin had essentially repeated front uh stalin had essentially repeated what the bolsheviks had done in 1917 and what the bolsheviks had done in 1917 and what the bolsheviks had done in 1917 and cut a deal cut a deal cut a deal uh to end that war allowing hitler to uh to end that war allowing hitler to uh to end that war allowing hitler to redeploy uh his forces uh against redeploy uh his forces uh against redeploy uh his forces uh against england england england you know that i think um could have have you know that i think um could have have you know that i think um could have have really changed the entire complexion of really changed the entire complexion of really changed the entire complexion of the global conflict in a way that uh led the global conflict in a way that uh led the global conflict in a way that uh led us to to think let's try to cut our us to to think let's try to cut our us to to think let's try to cut our losses in the pacific and and not devote losses in the pacific and and not devote losses in the pacific and and not devote the kind of enormous effort that it will the kind of enormous effort that it will the kind of enormous effort that it will require to conquer japan

require to conquer japan require to conquer japan at a time when we really do have to at a time when we really do have to at a time when we really do have to worry about our atlantic flank worry about our atlantic flank worry about our atlantic flank you know i'm going to piggyback off what you know i'm going to piggyback off what you know i'm going to piggyback off what you said because i think it's you said because i think it's you said because i think it's fascinating uh i spoke to a german once fascinating uh i spoke to a german once fascinating uh i spoke to a german once who had said who had said who had said that essentially i'm paraphrasing here that essentially i'm paraphrasing here that essentially i'm paraphrasing here but that we blew it in the east that we but that we blew it in the east that we but that we blew it in the east that we were welcomed by some of the population were welcomed by some of the population were welcomed by some of the population there uh as liberators and our actions there uh as liberators and our actions there uh as liberators and our actions turned those very people against us and turned those very people against us and turned those very people against us and made our job that much tougher i think made our job that much tougher i think made our job that much tougher i think about the pacific and the east a the about the pacific and the east a the about the pacific and the east a the greater east asia co-prosperity sphere greater east asia co-prosperity sphere greater east asia co-prosperity sphere and and this this idea that it's asia and and this this idea that it's asia and and this this idea that it's asia for the asians and the tying in of the for the asians and the tying in of the for the asians and the tying in of the pan-asianism and the japanese uh pan-asianism and the japanese uh pan-asianism and the japanese uh portraying themselves as the tip of the portraying themselves as the tip of the portraying themselves as the tip of the asian spear to sort of free uh the asian asian spear to sort of free uh the asian asian spear to sort of free uh the asian people from the colonial western powers people from the colonial western powers people from the colonial western powers um um um you know and when i was growing up we you know and when i was growing up we you know and when i was growing up we were taught that that was just a a fig were taught that that was just a a fig were taught that that was just a a fig leaf covering uh you know rampant leaf covering uh you know rampant leaf covering uh you know rampant imperialism and certainly some of the imperialism and certainly some of the imperialism and certainly some of the japanese leadership thought that way but japanese leadership thought that way but japanese leadership thought that way but the more you read the more you read the more you read especially the more modern works the especially the more modern works the especially the more modern works the more this seems like something a lot of more this seems like something a lot of more this seems like something a lot of people really bought into and believed people really bought into and believed people really bought into and believed um um um could you say that the japanese are in a could you say that the japanese are in a could you say that the japanese are in a similar position to what that german guy similar position to what that german guy similar position to what that german guy was in when i mean did they blow it here was in when i mean did they blow it here was in when i mean did they blow it here by the way they treated the populations by the way they treated the populations by the way they treated the populations that they liberated could this have gone that they liberated could this have gone that they liberated could this have gone a different way had they lived up to the a different way had they lived up to the a different way had they lived up to the hype a little bit on the marketing hype a little bit on the marketing hype a little bit on the marketing message message message well i mean you know certainly the well i mean you know certainly the well i mean you know certainly the japanese would have done done themselves japanese would have done done themselves japanese would have done done themselves a huge favor if they had just treated a huge favor if they had just treated a huge favor if they had just treated the asian peoples that they had the asian peoples that they had the asian peoples that they had conquered conquered conquered um more in line with with their ideology um more in line with with their ideology um more in line with with their ideology of this sort of pan-asian liberation of this sort of pan-asian liberation of this sort of pan-asian liberation movement

movement movement and and i think that there's you know and and i think that there's you know and and i think that there's you know there's a lot to be said for that there's a lot to be said for that there's a lot to be said for that traditional view that you were taught traditional view that you were taught traditional view that you were taught growing up which is that the japanese growing up which is that the japanese growing up which is that the japanese were fundamentally out uh were fundamentally out uh were fundamentally out uh as an imperialist power to try to as an imperialist power to try to as an imperialist power to try to aggrandize themselves their empire uh to aggrandize themselves their empire uh to aggrandize themselves their empire uh to raise their standard of living to raise their standard of living to raise their standard of living to plunder asia plunder asia plunder asia um um um that said there was this this kind of that said there was this this kind of that said there was this this kind of messianic and idealistic strain of of messianic and idealistic strain of of messianic and idealistic strain of of japanese imperialism and certainly among japanese imperialism and certainly among japanese imperialism and certainly among many and of those in the regime who were many and of those in the regime who were many and of those in the regime who were shaping this this message shaping this this message shaping this this message uh there was this idea that um uh the uh there was this idea that um uh the uh there was this idea that um uh the europeans have had their way in asia for europeans have had their way in asia for europeans have had their way in asia for long enough and we're gonna we're the long enough and we're gonna we're the long enough and we're gonna we're the only asian country that's strong enough only asian country that's strong enough only asian country that's strong enough uh to put an end to this and we're gonna uh to put an end to this and we're gonna uh to put an end to this and we're gonna do that and we're gonna we're gonna uh do that and we're gonna we're gonna uh do that and we're gonna we're gonna uh take great sacrifices in order to do take great sacrifices in order to do take great sacrifices in order to do that that that and i think that there were many and i think that there were many and i think that there were many japanese who genuinely believed that japanese who genuinely believed that japanese who genuinely believed that whether or not whether or not whether or not their military forces were able to live their military forces were able to live their military forces were able to live up to it up to it up to it and in fact that view really persists and in fact that view really persists and in fact that view really persists among particularly on the right in japan among particularly on the right in japan among particularly on the right in japan today uh you often hear it said by today uh you often hear it said by today uh you often hear it said by right-wing politicians and and uh right-wing politicians and and uh right-wing politicians and and uh writers and historians writers and historians writers and historians uh that uh japan's um defeat uh in the uh that uh japan's um defeat uh in the uh that uh japan's um defeat uh in the pacific war pacific war pacific war was in a sense a kind of long-term was in a sense a kind of long-term was in a sense a kind of long-term sacrifice for the rest of asia because sacrifice for the rest of asia because sacrifice for the rest of asia because it did lead it did lead it did lead uh indirectly and directly in some cases uh indirectly and directly in some cases uh indirectly and directly in some cases to the decolonization of so many of to the decolonization of so many of to the decolonization of so many of those nations those nations those nations uh and um and the you know the the uh and um and the you know the the uh and um and the you know the the situation in asia today where you you situation in asia today where you you situation in asia today where you you really don't have any european colonies

really don't have any european colonies really don't have any european colonies left uh in indonesia left uh in indonesia left uh in indonesia and that amplification it probably sped and that amplification it probably sped and that amplification it probably sped up the process certainly throwing out up the process certainly throwing out up the process certainly throwing out places like france from indochina for places like france from indochina for places like france from indochina for several years and then having them try several years and then having them try several years and then having them try to re-establish themselves definitely to re-establish themselves definitely to re-establish themselves definitely changes the equation um and you know and changes the equation um and you know and changes the equation um and you know and great britain was was simply exhausted great britain was was simply exhausted great britain was was simply exhausted by the war more the war in europe than by the war more the war in europe than by the war more the war in europe than the war in the pacific but but because the war in the pacific but but because the war in the pacific but but because of of of the war sort of brought um england and the war sort of brought um england and the war sort of brought um england and and the uk down in the world it became and the uk down in the world it became and the uk down in the world it became clear within a matter of about two clear within a matter of about two clear within a matter of about two decades that they no longer had the decades that they no longer had the decades that they no longer had the economic wherewithal to maintain this economic wherewithal to maintain this economic wherewithal to maintain this empire so that indirectly you could say empire so that indirectly you could say empire so that indirectly you could say uh led to the uh led to the uh led to the the the the independence of places like malaya independence of places like malaya independence of places like malaya and those places of course were some of and those places of course were some of and those places of course were some of the places that had oil and one of the the places that had oil and one of the the places that had oil and one of the things i think about with this war now things i think about with this war now things i think about with this war now more than i did as a kid and i think you more than i did as a kid and i think you more than i did as a kid and i think you know having know having know having my life straddles the the early oil my life straddles the the early oil my life straddles the the early oil crises era in the united states in the crises era in the united states in the crises era in the united states in the early 1970s and i think americans early 1970s and i think americans early 1970s and i think americans had a much better understanding of had a much better understanding of had a much better understanding of things like resources and whatnot around things like resources and whatnot around things like resources and whatnot around the world after the oil crisis and so the world after the oil crisis and so the world after the oil crisis and so when i look back now and i read the when i look back now and i read the when i look back now and i read the stuff about how the war happened stuff about how the war happened stuff about how the war happened especially with the embargoes and especially with the embargoes and especially with the embargoes and everything else the idea of oil comes everything else the idea of oil comes everything else the idea of oil comes into it so much more than it used to into it so much more than it used to into it so much more than it used to like i look at the war now and i go like i look at the war now and i go like i look at the war now and i go could this have been classified as the could this have been classified as the could this have been classified as the first major first major first major global war for something like oil um how global war for something like oil um how global war for something like oil um how do you see sort of our our modern um do you see sort of our our modern um do you see sort of our our modern um what would we say we protect our what would we say we protect our what would we say we protect our interests overseas we have global supply interests overseas we have global supply interests overseas we have global supply chains i mean in a sense could we say chains i mean in a sense could we say chains i mean in a sense could we say that you see the early stages of this in

that you see the early stages of this in that you see the early stages of this in the second world war the second world war the second world war yeah i think so i mean it was it was yeah i think so i mean it was it was yeah i think so i mean it was it was clearly from japan's point of view the clearly from japan's point of view the clearly from japan's point of view the immediate crisis that they that they had immediate crisis that they that they had immediate crisis that they that they had to address that led them to their to address that led them to their to address that led them to their decision to attack the united states and decision to attack the united states and decision to attack the united states and great britain in december 1941 was this great britain in december 1941 was this great britain in december 1941 was this oil problem oil problem oil problem uh they uh they uh they had and have uh today negligible had and have uh today negligible had and have uh today negligible domestic oil production so they really domestic oil production so they really domestic oil production so they really had to import uh had to import uh had to import uh oil both for their domestic economy and oil both for their domestic economy and oil both for their domestic economy and just to run their military run their just to run their military run their just to run their military run their navy and so navy and so navy and so um uh this was um uh this was um uh this was sort of the cynic sort of the cynic sort of the cynic of the entire japanese imperialist of the entire japanese imperialist of the entire japanese imperialist project is how do you project is how do you project is how do you assure that you have a steady oil supply assure that you have a steady oil supply assure that you have a steady oil supply so so so when we when we when we embargoed uh oil exports to japan embargoed uh oil exports to japan embargoed uh oil exports to japan uh essentially we uh essentially we uh essentially we we started a clock ticking they had we started a clock ticking they had we started a clock ticking they had stockpiled a certain amount of oil um stockpiled a certain amount of oil um stockpiled a certain amount of oil um and uh and perhaps enough for about a and uh and perhaps enough for about a and uh and perhaps enough for about a year to run both their domestic economy year to run both their domestic economy year to run both their domestic economy and their military operations and their military operations and their military operations and they had to solve that problem and they had to solve that problem and they had to solve that problem either by coming to some sort of a either by coming to some sort of a either by coming to some sort of a diplomatic settlement with us diplomatic settlement with us diplomatic settlement with us uh or if not by going and getting their uh or if not by going and getting their uh or if not by going and getting their own oil uh which is what they did by uh own oil uh which is what they did by uh own oil uh which is what they did by uh taking the east indies borneo and taking the east indies borneo and taking the east indies borneo and sumatra sumatra sumatra and so um the the immediate cause of the and so um the the immediate cause of the and so um the the immediate cause of the decision to attack pearl harbor uh was decision to attack pearl harbor uh was decision to attack pearl harbor uh was this this need to solve this oil problem this this need to solve this oil problem this this need to solve this oil problem and so yeah oil was was definitely at and so yeah oil was was definitely at and so yeah oil was was definitely at the very heart of this conflict from the the very heart of this conflict from the the very heart of this conflict from the beginning beginning beginning you know it's funny because if i look at you know it's funny because if i look at you know it's funny because if i look at the two circumstances europe versus the the two circumstances europe versus the the two circumstances europe versus the asia pacific area in europe the

asia pacific area in europe the asia pacific area in europe the criticism of the western powers was that criticism of the western powers was that criticism of the western powers was that there was an appeasement of hitler and there was an appeasement of hitler and there was an appeasement of hitler and he wasn't confronted strongly enough and he wasn't confronted strongly enough and he wasn't confronted strongly enough and hence you get a war what did churchill hence you get a war what did churchill hence you get a war what did churchill say he called it the unnecessary war say he called it the unnecessary war say he called it the unnecessary war right it didn't have to happen the funny right it didn't have to happen the funny right it didn't have to happen the funny thing is though is maybe you could make thing is though is maybe you could make thing is though is maybe you could make a case that in the asia pacific theater a case that in the asia pacific theater a case that in the asia pacific theater roosevelt did exactly what the people roosevelt did exactly what the people roosevelt did exactly what the people who want to confront these dictators did who want to confront these dictators did who want to confront these dictators did i mean he didn't appease them he i mean he didn't appease them he i mean he didn't appease them he basically told them you're going to basically told them you're going to basically told them you're going to change your foreign policy or we're change your foreign policy or we're change your foreign policy or we're going to take your oil away and yet you going to take your oil away and yet you going to take your oil away and yet you got war anyway got war anyway got war anyway what do you think about the united what do you think about the united what do you think about the united states is um you know because there's states is um you know because there's states is um you know because there's always been a lot of controversy about always been a lot of controversy about always been a lot of controversy about the way the secretary of state played the way the secretary of state played the way the secretary of state played these things these things these things was this something that the united was this something that the united was this something that the united states was kind of hoping would happen i states was kind of hoping would happen i states was kind of hoping would happen i mean because certainly i think the u.s mean because certainly i think the u.s mean because certainly i think the u.s must have had enough politicians who must have had enough politicians who must have had enough politicians who realized that the japanese can't easily realized that the japanese can't easily realized that the japanese can't easily back down from their entire foreign back down from their entire foreign back down from their entire foreign policy goals of the last 15 years um did policy goals of the last 15 years um did policy goals of the last 15 years um did we stumble into this or was this sort of we stumble into this or was this sort of we stumble into this or was this sort of manipulated in a way that turned out the manipulated in a way that turned out the manipulated in a way that turned out the way the u.s wanted way the u.s wanted way the u.s wanted you know i i mean you know it's a it's a you know i i mean you know it's a it's a you know i i mean you know it's a it's a controversial question it's one that's controversial question it's one that's controversial question it's one that's gotten a lot of attention i i tend to gotten a lot of attention i i tend to gotten a lot of attention i i tend to think that we stumbled into it more than think that we stumbled into it more than think that we stumbled into it more than we intended uh for for this to happen we intended uh for for this to happen we intended uh for for this to happen that said it was clear uh in the weeks that said it was clear uh in the weeks that said it was clear uh in the weeks before leading up to the attack on pearl before leading up to the attack on pearl before leading up to the attack on pearl harbor it was clear to our leaders that harbor it was clear to our leaders that harbor it was clear to our leaders that the japanese were preparing to make some the japanese were preparing to make some the japanese were preparing to make some sort of a move uh in the pacific sort of a move uh in the pacific sort of a move uh in the pacific um we did not anticipate the the uh raid um we did not anticipate the the uh raid um we did not anticipate the the uh raid on on pearl harbor despite all the many on on pearl harbor despite all the many on on pearl harbor despite all the many conspiracy theories that have been spun conspiracy theories that have been spun conspiracy theories that have been spun in that respect in that respect in that respect and yet uh we did expect war uh to begin

and yet uh we did expect war uh to begin and yet uh we did expect war uh to begin perhaps on that same day december 7th perhaps on that same day december 7th perhaps on that same day december 7th war warnings had gone out um and and i war warnings had gone out um and and i war warnings had gone out um and and i think what's clear is that we had by think what's clear is that we had by think what's clear is that we had by that time uh we've been reading the that time uh we've been reading the that time uh we've been reading the diplomatic mail this is a really diplomatic mail this is a really diplomatic mail this is a really important important important achievement of our our cryptanalyst achievement of our our cryptanalyst achievement of our our cryptanalyst program is that we were able to program is that we were able to program is that we were able to essentially break the codes that the essentially break the codes that the essentially break the codes that the japanese japanese japanese uh foreign ministry used to communicate uh foreign ministry used to communicate uh foreign ministry used to communicate with its embassies overseas we continued with its embassies overseas we continued with its embassies overseas we continued to read that mail right through the end to read that mail right through the end to read that mail right through the end of the second world war and so we uh we of the second world war and so we uh we of the second world war and so we uh we knew that um that they were essentially knew that um that they were essentially knew that um that they were essentially preparing uh some sort of a military preparing uh some sort of a military preparing uh some sort of a military move to try to solve their oil problem move to try to solve their oil problem move to try to solve their oil problem and um uh you know i i think it's it's and um uh you know i i think it's it's and um uh you know i i think it's it's clear that that uh roosevelt was okay clear that that uh roosevelt was okay clear that that uh roosevelt was okay with that roosevelt in in his um with that roosevelt in in his um with that roosevelt in in his um his his cabinet uh understood that the his his cabinet uh understood that the his his cabinet uh understood that the japanese were likely to japanese were likely to japanese were likely to uh break off negotiations and and attack uh break off negotiations and and attack uh break off negotiations and and attack probably the british and the dutch but probably the british and the dutch but probably the british and the dutch but not us directly and that uh that might not us directly and that uh that might not us directly and that uh that might uh lead us to you know to to solve the uh lead us to you know to to solve the uh lead us to you know to to solve the political problem which which fdr had at political problem which which fdr had at political problem which which fdr had at home which was that he simply didn't home which was that he simply didn't home which was that he simply didn't have the american people united behind have the american people united behind have the american people united behind this prospect of joining the second this prospect of joining the second this prospect of joining the second world war something that he saw by that world war something that he saw by that world war something that he saw by that time was going to be necessary and so uh time was going to be necessary and so uh time was going to be necessary and so uh i i think it's it's you know i i think it's it's you know i i think it's it's you know it was a it was a story of of stumbling it was a it was a story of of stumbling it was a it was a story of of stumbling a bit in terms of the way that the a bit in terms of the way that the a bit in terms of the way that the embargo the various measures were taken embargo the various measures were taken embargo the various measures were taken throughout 1941. there are several throughout 1941. there are several throughout 1941. there are several instances in in which it was not clear

instances in in which it was not clear instances in in which it was not clear that that that uh that the uh that the uh that the specific steps that were taken uh to specific steps that were taken uh to specific steps that were taken uh to ratchet up these these economic measures ratchet up these these economic measures ratchet up these these economic measures uh were completely in line with the way uh were completely in line with the way uh were completely in line with the way fdr wanted them to occur and yet fdr wanted them to occur and yet fdr wanted them to occur and yet overall it you know we had um we had had overall it you know we had um we had had overall it you know we had um we had had regarded japanese aggression in asia as regarded japanese aggression in asia as regarded japanese aggression in asia as a fundamental threat to the global peace a fundamental threat to the global peace a fundamental threat to the global peace and uh and is essentially wrong in and uh and is essentially wrong in and uh and is essentially wrong in itself and fdr's rhetoric had been itself and fdr's rhetoric had been itself and fdr's rhetoric had been crystal clear about that crystal clear about that crystal clear about that uh that this kind of aggression against uh that this kind of aggression against uh that this kind of aggression against other nations was was dangerous uh and other nations was was dangerous uh and other nations was was dangerous uh and it was a contagion which had to be had it was a contagion which had to be had it was a contagion which had to be had to be stopped to be stopped to be stopped and so um certainly we were not going to and so um certainly we were not going to and so um certainly we were not going to continue to export oil from west texas continue to export oil from west texas continue to export oil from west texas uh to japan to allow them to carry on uh to japan to allow them to carry on uh to japan to allow them to carry on this this war of aggression against this this war of aggression against this this war of aggression against their neighbors and if uh if that was their neighbors and if uh if that was their neighbors and if uh if that was going to lead to an outbreak of war in going to lead to an outbreak of war in going to lead to an outbreak of war in the pacific then so be it i think our the pacific then so be it i think our the pacific then so be it i think our leaders were ready for that leaders were ready for that leaders were ready for that so then that makes me wonder about the so then that makes me wonder about the so then that makes me wonder about the other side's ability then to respond or other side's ability then to respond or other side's ability then to respond or be flexible um be flexible um be flexible um i think this is maybe why everyone i think this is maybe why everyone i think this is maybe why everyone spends so much time diagramming the way spends so much time diagramming the way spends so much time diagramming the way the japanese government is set up to the japanese government is set up to the japanese government is set up to show you the dysfunction in it or the show you the dysfunction in it or the show you the dysfunction in it or the you know that the period right before you know that the period right before you know that the period right before the second world war in the 20s and 30s the second world war in the 20s and 30s the second world war in the 20s and 30s was sometimes referred to as a was sometimes referred to as a was sometimes referred to as a government by assassination where you government by assassination where you government by assassination where you have these these lower level officer have these these lower level officer have these these lower level officer types having an outsize influence on types having an outsize influence on types having an outsize influence on overall policy and it seems like in a overall policy and it seems like in a overall policy and it seems like in a sense i mean i was always moved by the sense i mean i was always moved by the sense i mean i was always moved by the fact that a bunch of the japanese fact that a bunch of the japanese fact that a bunch of the japanese leaders at the end of the second world

leaders at the end of the second world leaders at the end of the second world war who are running the country have war who are running the country have war who are running the country have bullets still in their body you know bullets still in their body you know bullets still in their body you know from assassination attempts so so you from assassination attempts so so you from assassination attempts so so you get this sense of how much leeway did get this sense of how much leeway did get this sense of how much leeway did any of these particular leaders or or any of these particular leaders or or any of these particular leaders or or influential people in the japanese uh um influential people in the japanese uh um influential people in the japanese uh um governmental system because you know governmental system because you know governmental system because you know they have those higher up sort of the they have those higher up sort of the they have those higher up sort of the elder statesman types too um how much elder statesman types too um how much elder statesman types too um how much did that government have the ability i did that government have the ability i did that government have the ability i just feel like they were almost just feel like they were almost just feel like they were almost paralyzed sometimes uh in terms of their paralyzed sometimes uh in terms of their paralyzed sometimes uh in terms of their ability to break this log jam that ability to break this log jam that ability to break this log jam that whether it was the army or radical whether it was the army or radical whether it was the army or radical politicians or whatever i mean it's politicians or whatever i mean it's politicians or whatever i mean it's almost like they got pulled to the almost like they got pulled to the almost like they got pulled to the extremes and no one had the ability to extremes and no one had the ability to extremes and no one had the ability to do anything about that yeah no do anything about that yeah no do anything about that yeah no absolutely i i wouldn't say it was absolutely i i wouldn't say it was absolutely i i wouldn't say it was almost they were almost paralyzed i almost they were almost paralyzed i almost they were almost paralyzed i would say that it was a paralytic form would say that it was a paralytic form would say that it was a paralytic form of government the meiji constitution of government the meiji constitution of government the meiji constitution which was the the form of government which was the the form of government which was the the form of government that uh that uh that uh hirohito's grandfather had essentially hirohito's grandfather had essentially hirohito's grandfather had essentially given to the japanese people as a gift given to the japanese people as a gift given to the japanese people as a gift that's the way it was presented that's the way it was presented that's the way it was presented it was a a document which reserved quite it was a a document which reserved quite it was a a document which reserved quite a bit of power for the emperor a bit of power for the emperor a bit of power for the emperor particularly to command the armed forces particularly to command the armed forces particularly to command the armed forces directly directly directly and yet it was it was ambiguous in many and yet it was it was ambiguous in many and yet it was it was ambiguous in many ways and uh what had happened really was ways and uh what had happened really was ways and uh what had happened really was that after meiji died his successors that after meiji died his successors that after meiji died his successors including hirohito were not strong including hirohito were not strong including hirohito were not strong enough personalities to continue to enough personalities to continue to enough personalities to continue to assert assert assert uh the considerable power that that that uh the considerable power that that that uh the considerable power that that that they had uh over the state and over the they had uh over the state and over the they had uh over the state and over the military in particular under that that military in particular under that that military in particular under that that document and through a series of document and through a series of document and through a series of legal precedents um it had legal precedents um it had legal precedents um it had the system that had evolved by the 1930s

the system that had evolved by the 1930s the system that had evolved by the 1930s essentially put the the um emperor in a essentially put the the um emperor in a essentially put the the um emperor in a very constrained role where in very constrained role where in very constrained role where in particular if his advisors his military particular if his advisors his military particular if his advisors his military advisers and his cabinet advisers and his cabinet advisers and his cabinet presented him with presented him with presented him with a consensus recommendation a consensus recommendation a consensus recommendation he essentially was required he essentially was required he essentially was required to approve of that to approve of that to approve of that and so and so and so the military which had really taken the military which had really taken the military which had really taken control of the government every aspect control of the government every aspect control of the government every aspect of the government not just foreign of the government not just foreign of the government not just foreign policy but domestic policy as well policy but domestic policy as well policy but domestic policy as well the army and the navy who are constantly the army and the navy who are constantly the army and the navy who are constantly at each other's throats in a struggle at each other's throats in a struggle at each other's throats in a struggle for power for control of resources for for power for control of resources for for power for control of resources for control of directing the foreign policy control of directing the foreign policy control of directing the foreign policy of the country of the country of the country they realized that as long as they could they realized that as long as they could they realized that as long as they could come to some kind of rough and ready come to some kind of rough and ready come to some kind of rough and ready consensus that hirohito would simply consensus that hirohito would simply consensus that hirohito would simply have to rubber stamp whatever they have to rubber stamp whatever they have to rubber stamp whatever they wanted to do wanted to do wanted to do and um and and this became a more and and um and and this became a more and and um and and this became a more and more costly feature of the japanese more costly feature of the japanese more costly feature of the japanese regime as the crisis approached in 1941 regime as the crisis approached in 1941 regime as the crisis approached in 1941 until finally until finally until finally it became it became it became it became necessary for it became necessary for it became necessary for uh the military leadership to to go uh the military leadership to to go uh the military leadership to to go ahead with this war that many of them ahead with this war that many of them ahead with this war that many of them really didn't believe in particularly in really didn't believe in particularly in really didn't believe in particularly in the navy because the alternative was the navy because the alternative was the navy because the alternative was going to be a complete breakdown of this going to be a complete breakdown of this going to be a complete breakdown of this sort of fragile uh consensus balance sort of fragile uh consensus balance sort of fragile uh consensus balance that had kept japan from descending into that had kept japan from descending into that had kept japan from descending into a civil war and so yes violence a civil war and so yes violence a civil war and so yes violence political violence assassinations uh political violence assassinations uh political violence assassinations uh that was always uh right beneath the that was always uh right beneath the that was always uh right beneath the surface it you know it was at its height surface it you know it was at its height surface it you know it was at its height in the 1930s a period where you just had in the 1930s a period where you just had in the 1930s a period where you just had you know one assassination after another

you know one assassination after another you know one assassination after another one act of violence and intimidation one act of violence and intimidation one act of violence and intimidation coming up from the middle ranks of the coming up from the middle ranks of the coming up from the middle ranks of the army in particular army in particular army in particular aimed at the leadership uh and then that aimed at the leadership uh and then that aimed at the leadership uh and then that settled down in during the war itself settled down in during the war itself settled down in during the war itself and and general tojo was given much of and and general tojo was given much of and and general tojo was given much of the credit for having essentially sort the credit for having essentially sort the credit for having essentially sort of imposed this this fragile peace in in of imposed this this fragile peace in in of imposed this this fragile peace in in this nascent civil war this nascent civil war this nascent civil war in japan and then as the as the end of in japan and then as the as the end of in japan and then as the as the end of the war approached and the decision the the war approached and the decision the the war approached and the decision the japanese confronted the necessity to japanese confronted the necessity to japanese confronted the necessity to essentially face up to their own defeat essentially face up to their own defeat essentially face up to their own defeat the threat of assassinations of civil the threat of assassinations of civil the threat of assassinations of civil disorder of violence once again that disorder of violence once again that disorder of violence once again that became a primary concern and so uh became a primary concern and so uh became a primary concern and so uh really in the complex series of events really in the complex series of events really in the complex series of events that finally led to the japanese that finally led to the japanese that finally led to the japanese decision to surrender after we had decision to surrender after we had decision to surrender after we had dropped two atomic bombs um dropped two atomic bombs um dropped two atomic bombs um was was was occurred against this backdrop of as you occurred against this backdrop of as you occurred against this backdrop of as you say this kind of constant uh threat of say this kind of constant uh threat of say this kind of constant uh threat of violence from in in violence from in in violence from in in in a military insurgency which could in a military insurgency which could in a military insurgency which could lead to a coup d'etat which in turn lead to a coup d'etat which in turn lead to a coup d'etat which in turn would lead to the destruction of japan would lead to the destruction of japan would lead to the destruction of japan because it would make it impossible for because it would make it impossible for because it would make it impossible for japan to surrender japan to surrender japan to surrender and so yes it was a real mess uh this and so yes it was a real mess uh this and so yes it was a real mess uh this this entire regime was essentially this entire regime was essentially this entire regime was essentially entirely dysfunctional entirely dysfunctional entirely dysfunctional uh the dysfunction of the regime uh the dysfunction of the regime uh the dysfunction of the regime explains both the decision explains both the decision explains both the decision uh to go to war to to launch themselves uh to go to war to to launch themselves uh to go to war to to launch themselves into a war that many of their leaders into a war that many of their leaders into a war that many of their leaders even before the attack on pearl harbor even before the attack on pearl harbor even before the attack on pearl harbor recognized that they could not win recognized that they could not win recognized that they could not win and it also explained the long delay in

and it also explained the long delay in and it also explained the long delay in acknowledging uh japan's defeat which acknowledging uh japan's defeat which acknowledging uh japan's defeat which their military leaders understood their military leaders understood their military leaders understood perfectly well perfectly well perfectly well even a year before the surrender they even a year before the surrender they even a year before the surrender they understood that they were defeated and understood that they were defeated and understood that they were defeated and that essentially surrender or some sort that essentially surrender or some sort that essentially surrender or some sort of negotiated settlement if they could of negotiated settlement if they could of negotiated settlement if they could get it which would amount to surrender get it which would amount to surrender get it which would amount to surrender that that was inevitable and the only that that was inevitable and the only that that was inevitable and the only the only possible future for japan the only possible future for japan the only possible future for japan you know when you get to 1945 and you you know when you get to 1945 and you you know when you get to 1945 and you see you'd mention how crazy it is by see you'd mention how crazy it is by see you'd mention how crazy it is by then then then it always strikes me that as we because it always strikes me that as we because it always strikes me that as we because we still have these debates today about we still have these debates today about we still have these debates today about a dropping of atomic bombs or or a dropping of atomic bombs or or a dropping of atomic bombs or or firebombings or or strategic bombing at firebombings or or strategic bombing at firebombings or or strategic bombing at all um all um all um and and how difficult it is from our and and how difficult it is from our and and how difficult it is from our position i mean it's it's a stereotype position i mean it's it's a stereotype position i mean it's it's a stereotype almost a trope but how difficult it is almost a trope but how difficult it is almost a trope but how difficult it is from our position now in cold blood to from our position now in cold blood to from our position now in cold blood to try to assess try to assess try to assess the madness that's going on and and the the madness that's going on and and the the madness that's going on and and the destructive um destructive um destructive um uh you know there's a building of it uh you know there's a building of it uh you know there's a building of it right when you look at the bombing in right when you look at the bombing in right when you look at the bombing in 1939 1939 1939 versus the 1945 version of i mean you versus the 1945 version of i mean you versus the 1945 version of i mean you almost have to build up to something almost have to build up to something almost have to build up to something like that and then when you try to like that and then when you try to like that and then when you try to assess it 70 or 80 years later it looks assess it 70 or 80 years later it looks assess it 70 or 80 years later it looks relatively insane right it looks like relatively insane right it looks like relatively insane right it looks like the the analog version of the nuclear the the analog version of the nuclear the the analog version of the nuclear war where they're so that we're so war where they're so that we're so war where they're so that we're so scared about now how do you explain to scared about now how do you explain to scared about now how do you explain to people and you know you're an expert at people and you know you're an expert at people and you know you're an expert at this you do this how do you explain to this you do this how do you explain to this you do this how do you explain to people in cold blood today people in cold blood today people in cold blood today um the hot blood decisions to do things um the hot blood decisions to do things um the hot blood decisions to do things like fire bombing tokyo in a way that like fire bombing tokyo in a way that like fire bombing tokyo in a way that makes sense to them makes sense to them makes sense to them how do you take them into a crazy world how do you take them into a crazy world how do you take them into a crazy world yeah i mean i i think that yeah i mean i i think that yeah i mean i i think that i agree with you about that i think that

i agree with you about that i think that i agree with you about that i think that the only way you really can do it is by the only way you really can do it is by the only way you really can do it is by telling the entire story of the conflict telling the entire story of the conflict telling the entire story of the conflict from beginning to end from beginning to end from beginning to end uh that's the only way it makes sense uh that's the only way it makes sense uh that's the only way it makes sense the only way the firebombing of tokyo or the only way the firebombing of tokyo or the only way the firebombing of tokyo or the atomic bombings of hiroshima and the atomic bombings of hiroshima and the atomic bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki makes sense to me nagasaki makes sense to me nagasaki makes sense to me is if i go back to is if i go back to is if i go back to the the the chinese the japanese invasion of china chinese the japanese invasion of china chinese the japanese invasion of china in 1937 the extraordinarily awful in 1937 the extraordinarily awful in 1937 the extraordinarily awful massacres that went on massacres that went on massacres that went on the the barbarism of of the japanese the the barbarism of of the japanese the the barbarism of of the japanese army the way it uh behaved toward army the way it uh behaved toward army the way it uh behaved toward civilians in the areas that it occupied civilians in the areas that it occupied civilians in the areas that it occupied its behavior toward prisoners of war its behavior toward prisoners of war its behavior toward prisoners of war including our prisoners of war including our prisoners of war including our prisoners of war uh uh uh and you really have to tell the whole and you really have to tell the whole and you really have to tell the whole story uh you have to tell the story of story uh you have to tell the story of story uh you have to tell the story of how there was this no surrender ethic uh how there was this no surrender ethic uh how there was this no surrender ethic uh which had been inculcated into the which had been inculcated into the which had been inculcated into the japanese military and the way that they japanese military and the way that they japanese military and the way that they really observed that really observed that really observed that on one island after another essentially on one island after another essentially on one island after another essentially dying to the last man uh refusing to dying to the last man uh refusing to dying to the last man uh refusing to surrender surrender surrender uh the way on places like saipan uh the uh the way on places like saipan uh the uh the way on places like saipan uh the um you had mass suicides of japanese um you had mass suicides of japanese um you had mass suicides of japanese civilians civilians civilians uh rather than falling into the hands of uh rather than falling into the hands of uh rather than falling into the hands of americans who were i think in good faith americans who were i think in good faith americans who were i think in good faith trying to save their lives trying to save their lives trying to save their lives um and when you saw this cult of death um and when you saw this cult of death um and when you saw this cult of death occurring occurring occurring then it became much easier to think in then it became much easier to think in then it became much easier to think in terms of well you know terms of well you know terms of well you know the japanese are essentially behaving the japanese are essentially behaving the japanese are essentially behaving their both their rhetoric and their their both their rhetoric and their their both their rhetoric and their behavior indicates that what they're behavior indicates that what they're behavior indicates that what they're saying is we're gonna have to kill all saying is we're gonna have to kill all saying is we're gonna have to kill all of them of them of them in order to end this war uh literally

in order to end this war uh literally in order to end this war uh literally every last man woman and child in japan every last man woman and child in japan every last man woman and child in japan we don't want to do that we don't want to do that we don't want to do that but but but inevitably we're going to have to kill a inevitably we're going to have to kill a inevitably we're going to have to kill a lot of japanese until they come to their lot of japanese until they come to their lot of japanese until they come to their senses senses senses and um and um and um so you know you really had this kind of so you know you really had this kind of so you know you really had this kind of inversion of of what i would say were a inversion of of what i would say were a inversion of of what i would say were a traditional understanding of military traditional understanding of military traditional understanding of military ethics to the point where the the most ethics to the point where the the most ethics to the point where the the most important thing was to try to end the important thing was to try to end the important thing was to try to end the war quickly war quickly war quickly uh by any means necessary including um uh by any means necessary including um uh by any means necessary including um trespassing upon those traditional ideas trespassing upon those traditional ideas trespassing upon those traditional ideas of uh separating the the um uh civilian of uh separating the the um uh civilian of uh separating the the um uh civilian from the military target from the military target from the military target and uh and that occurred in in in and uh and that occurred in in in and uh and that occurred in in in germany as well uh by the way germany as well uh by the way germany as well uh by the way and so uh again i i don't think it's and so uh again i i don't think it's and so uh again i i don't think it's it's it's hard to sort of sit down with it's it's hard to sort of sit down with it's it's hard to sort of sit down with someone who doesn't know the history and someone who doesn't know the history and someone who doesn't know the history and to lay it out uh without going back and to lay it out uh without going back and to lay it out uh without going back and really telling the entire story and so really telling the entire story and so really telling the entire story and so um that's that's what i set out to do in um that's that's what i set out to do in um that's that's what i set out to do in this this this uh three volume history and i don't uh three volume history and i don't uh three volume history and i don't think that the story can be told in any think that the story can be told in any think that the story can be told in any less than uh you know 1800 pages that i less than uh you know 1800 pages that i less than uh you know 1800 pages that i took to tell it took to tell it took to tell it do you think a land invasion of the home do you think a land invasion of the home do you think a land invasion of the home islands would have happened islands would have happened islands would have happened i do not think uh that we would have i do not think uh that we would have i do not think uh that we would have invaded japan um i i think that it was invaded japan um i i think that it was invaded japan um i i think that it was perhaps we we knew that we needed to perhaps we we knew that we needed to perhaps we we knew that we needed to have the option which is why we have the option which is why we have the option which is why we placed such enormous preparations placed such enormous preparations placed such enormous preparations for operation downfall the invasion for operation downfall the invasion for operation downfall the invasion first of kyushu and then honshu

first of kyushu and then honshu first of kyushu and then honshu um but the target date for the first um but the target date for the first um but the target date for the first stage of that invasion the invasion of stage of that invasion the invasion of stage of that invasion the invasion of kyushu kyushu kyushu operation olympic was november 1st 1945. operation olympic was november 1st 1945. operation olympic was november 1st 1945. we dropped the bomb on uh hiroshima in we dropped the bomb on uh hiroshima in we dropped the bomb on uh hiroshima in the first week of august that's almost the first week of august that's almost the first week of august that's almost three months three months three months and so the question really it becomes a and so the question really it becomes a and so the question really it becomes a counter factual what would have happened counter factual what would have happened counter factual what would have happened in those three months in those three months in those three months and um and i think for all we know about and um and i think for all we know about and um and i think for all we know about uh what was happening in tokyo uh what was happening in tokyo uh what was happening in tokyo uh i think it's very difficult to to uh i think it's very difficult to to uh i think it's very difficult to to imagine that the government would have imagine that the government would have imagine that the government would have uh uh uh continued to to want to fight that this continued to to want to fight that this continued to to want to fight that this this struggle that they were that they this struggle that they were that they this struggle that they were that they were undertaking to try to surrender were undertaking to try to surrender were undertaking to try to surrender um that that would not have succeeded in um that that would not have succeeded in um that that would not have succeeded in those three months particularly when you those three months particularly when you those three months particularly when you consider that the the conventional consider that the the conventional consider that the the conventional bombing campaign was really growing by bombing campaign was really growing by bombing campaign was really growing by leaps and bounds leaps and bounds leaps and bounds uh really week by week and so even in uh really week by week and so even in uh really week by week and so even in the absence of the atomic bombs um the absence of the atomic bombs um the absence of the atomic bombs um uh i i think it's very unlikely that we uh i i think it's very unlikely that we uh i i think it's very unlikely that we would have launched an invasion of japan would have launched an invasion of japan would have launched an invasion of japan you know you know you know we dance around these issues i think we dance around these issues i think we dance around these issues i think when we talk about it about how really when we talk about it about how really when we talk about it about how really different the japanese are different the japanese are different the japanese are and how unique in so many ways i mean it and how unique in so many ways i mean it and how unique in so many ways i mean it makes me wonder about the challenges of makes me wonder about the challenges of makes me wonder about the challenges of historians who aren't japanese trying to historians who aren't japanese trying to historians who aren't japanese trying to you know like i would read you know like i would read you know like i would read there are some wonderful books we used there are some wonderful books we used there are some wonderful books we used for the show for the show for the show written about japan but many of them by written about japan but many of them by written about japan but many of them by western experts and i i think to myself western experts and i i think to myself western experts and i i think to myself um um um not only that that maybe you might have

not only that that maybe you might have not only that that maybe you might have to be japanese to understand some of to be japanese to understand some of to be japanese to understand some of this stuff but that maybe even the this stuff but that maybe even the this stuff but that maybe even the modern day japanese aren't in a position modern day japanese aren't in a position modern day japanese aren't in a position to assess this because it was so to assess this because it was so to assess this because it was so different even in that country 70 or 80 different even in that country 70 or 80 different even in that country 70 or 80 years ago from i mean it's a transformed years ago from i mean it's a transformed years ago from i mean it's a transformed society um society um society um is it becoming you know i used to think is it becoming you know i used to think is it becoming you know i used to think when i was younger that because you when i was younger that because you when i was younger that because you would meet people who were veterans in would meet people who were veterans in would meet people who were veterans in the war and people who had been there the war and people who had been there the war and people who had been there they seemed like flesh and blood as i they seemed like flesh and blood as i they seemed like flesh and blood as i get older they almost seemed like trying get older they almost seemed like trying get older they almost seemed like trying to assess alexander the great or the to assess alexander the great or the to assess alexander the great or the mongols or i mean it's getting to be a mongols or i mean it's getting to be a mongols or i mean it's getting to be a society that's in the past does that society that's in the past does that society that's in the past does that make sense when we write about this make sense when we write about this make sense when we write about this we're trying to get into the minds of we're trying to get into the minds of we're trying to get into the minds of people people people who aren't around anymore and as sort of who aren't around anymore and as sort of who aren't around anymore and as sort of a societal ethic i mean there are no a societal ethic i mean there are no a societal ethic i mean there are no more hero onodas or or or kamikaze more hero onodas or or or kamikaze more hero onodas or or or kamikaze pilots in japan i mean is this a pilots in japan i mean is this a pilots in japan i mean is this a this goes back maybe to why people deal this goes back maybe to why people deal this goes back maybe to why people deal with the opening in the 19th century so with the opening in the 19th century so with the opening in the 19th century so much or when i was growing up they used much or when i was growing up they used much or when i was growing up they used to talk about the japanese being a to talk about the japanese being a to talk about the japanese being a medieval society that had been brought medieval society that had been brought medieval society that had been brought into the modern world but they almost into the modern world but they almost into the modern world but they almost seemed culturally like an extreme seemed culturally like an extreme seemed culturally like an extreme manifestation of humanity by the second manifestation of humanity by the second manifestation of humanity by the second world war um how does the fact that the world war um how does the fact that the world war um how does the fact that the japanese are so different play into all japanese are so different play into all japanese are so different play into all this i mean i know my stepfather was this i mean i know my stepfather was this i mean i know my stepfather was overwhelmed by the kamikaze overwhelmed by the kamikaze overwhelmed by the kamikaze phenomenon when he was in the war um how phenomenon when he was in the war um how phenomenon when he was in the war um how much does that play a role in this they much does that play a role in this they much does that play a role in this they just seem like the most unusual just seem like the most unusual just seem like the most unusual people i mean people i mean people i mean that's an open-ended question but i'm that's an open-ended question but i'm that's an open-ended question but i'm sure you know what i'm talking about sure you know what i'm talking about sure you know what i'm talking about there's a fascination about the japanese there's a fascination about the japanese there's a fascination about the japanese in this war because they're singular in this war because they're singular in this war because they're singular aren't they yeah no they it's it's aren't they yeah no they it's it's aren't they yeah no they it's it's really true and it's um really true and it's um really true and it's um putting yourself into the mindset of the

putting yourself into the mindset of the putting yourself into the mindset of the japanese and during during this war has japanese and during during this war has japanese and during during this war has been a tremendous challenge for everyone been a tremendous challenge for everyone been a tremendous challenge for everyone who's written about it um who's written about it um who's written about it um and i think there's something to what and i think there's something to what and i think there's something to what you say i mean that you know japanese you say i mean that you know japanese you say i mean that you know japanese of 2021 trying to understand the of 2021 trying to understand the of 2021 trying to understand the japanese of 1941 it's it's not easy japanese of 1941 it's it's not easy japanese of 1941 it's it's not easy there also have been very powerful there also have been very powerful there also have been very powerful taboos which still exist in japan that taboos which still exist in japan that taboos which still exist in japan that kind of govern the way people think kind of govern the way people think kind of govern the way people think about talk about write about the war about talk about write about the war about talk about write about the war um that said there has been uh quite a um that said there has been uh quite a um that said there has been uh quite a quite a burst of of scholarship both by quite a burst of of scholarship both by quite a burst of of scholarship both by western scholars of japan and by western scholars of japan and by western scholars of japan and by japanese scholars which has appeared in japanese scholars which has appeared in japanese scholars which has appeared in english translation in the past 25 years english translation in the past 25 years english translation in the past 25 years and i think there's a lot more to be and i think there's a lot more to be and i think there's a lot more to be done actually if you look across all of done actually if you look across all of done actually if you look across all of world war ii across uh the whole whole world war ii across uh the whole whole world war ii across uh the whole whole global landscape global landscape global landscape i think a lot of the most interesting i think a lot of the most interesting i think a lot of the most interesting scholarship of the next uh several scholarship of the next uh several scholarship of the next uh several decades is going to be in in trying to decades is going to be in in trying to decades is going to be in in trying to get a better understanding of what get a better understanding of what get a better understanding of what precisely happened in japan precisely happened in japan precisely happened in japan in those years in those years in those years and and and just to get even more futuristic on you just to get even more futuristic on you just to get even more futuristic on you i think you know machine learning ai i think you know machine learning ai i think you know machine learning ai which is eventually going to eliminate which is eventually going to eliminate which is eventually going to eliminate language barriers in archives i think language barriers in archives i think language barriers in archives i think there's going to be a tremendous there's going to be a tremendous there's going to be a tremendous improvement in our understanding improvement in our understanding improvement in our understanding collectively of what happened there uh collectively of what happened there uh collectively of what happened there uh as those new new tools start to start to as those new new tools start to start to as those new new tools start to start to start to bear on the issue over the next start to bear on the issue over the next start to bear on the issue over the next few decades few decades few decades um but uh um but uh um but uh you know again it really comes down to you know again it really comes down to you know again it really comes down to kind of understanding this conflict and kind of understanding this conflict and kind of understanding this conflict and the way that our ancestors who fought it the way that our ancestors who fought it the way that our ancestors who fought it understood under understood and that's understood under understood and that's understood under understood and that's that's where there's a strong case to be

that's where there's a strong case to be that's where there's a strong case to be made for narrative history something made for narrative history something made for narrative history something that i do something that you do as well that i do something that you do as well that i do something that you do as well as a podcaster trying to go back and and as a podcaster trying to go back and and as a podcaster trying to go back and and help um help um help um people understand what what was in the people understand what what was in the people understand what what was in the minds of those who were there at the minds of those who were there at the minds of those who were there at the time making the decisions fighting these time making the decisions fighting these time making the decisions fighting these battles battles battles um um um the you know from the the guys in the in the you know from the the guys in the in the you know from the the guys in the in the trenches on the decks of the ships the trenches on the decks of the ships the trenches on the decks of the ships in the cockpits to those who are are in in the cockpits to those who are are in in the cockpits to those who are are in the the the headquarters uh making decisions from a headquarters uh making decisions from a headquarters uh making decisions from a military standpoint to the halls of military standpoint to the halls of military standpoint to the halls of power in washington and in tokyo power in washington and in tokyo power in washington and in tokyo understanding this entire conflict the understanding this entire conflict the understanding this entire conflict the way it unfolded week by week uh i think way it unfolded week by week uh i think way it unfolded week by week uh i think is is the really the best way to try to is is the really the best way to try to is is the really the best way to try to get closer to the way uh that it was get closer to the way uh that it was get closer to the way uh that it was understood by by those who were there understood by by those who were there understood by by those who were there there are parts too that fade into the there are parts too that fade into the there are parts too that fade into the background until you start reading about background until you start reading about background until you start reading about them and you go oh really this is hard them and you go oh really this is hard them and you go oh really this is hard to relate to for example and you touched to relate to for example and you touched to relate to for example and you touched upon it with the japanese but i'm upon it with the japanese but i'm upon it with the japanese but i'm fascinated with the american version of fascinated with the american version of fascinated with the american version of it too the inter-service rivalries it too the inter-service rivalries it too the inter-service rivalries and and because i think these days at and and because i think these days at and and because i think these days at least the general consensus among least the general consensus among least the general consensus among civilians is that all the services work civilians is that all the services work civilians is that all the services work well together in the united states and well together in the united states and well together in the united states and whatnot whatnot whatnot to truly understand i mean i was reading to truly understand i mean i was reading to truly understand i mean i was reading um i was reading one book and they were um i was reading one book and they were um i was reading one book and they were talking about uh it was a scene uh on talking about uh it was a scene uh on talking about uh it was a scene uh on guadalcanal i think it was and there was guadalcanal i think it was and there was guadalcanal i think it was and there was a it was an army officer who was a it was an army officer who was a it was an army officer who was berating a marine and there was another berating a marine and there was another berating a marine and there was another marine in the distance who cocked his marine in the distance who cocked his marine in the distance who cocked his rifle or something it was portrayed as a rifle or something it was portrayed as a rifle or something it was portrayed as a scene where this marine was going to scene where this marine was going to scene where this marine was going to frag this army officer for yelling at frag this army officer for yelling at frag this army officer for yelling at another marine um the japanese another marine um the japanese another marine um the japanese inter-service rivalries literally inter-service rivalries literally inter-service rivalries literally decided you know the direction the war

decided you know the direction the war decided you know the direction the war would take often but but people don't would take often but but people don't would take often but but people don't realize and this includes yours truly realize and this includes yours truly realize and this includes yours truly you know i remembered it but i really you know i remembered it but i really you know i remembered it but i really didn't remember it until you started didn't remember it until you started didn't remember it until you started diving into douglas macarthur's uh diving into douglas macarthur's uh diving into douglas macarthur's uh paranoid fantasies about the navy and paranoid fantasies about the navy and paranoid fantasies about the navy and all this stuff can you talk a little all this stuff can you talk a little all this stuff can you talk a little about the inner service rivalry and how about the inner service rivalry and how about the inner service rivalry and how it determined kind of the way things it determined kind of the way things it determined kind of the way things went went went yeah yeah yeah well you know our military um before and well you know our military um before and well you know our military um before and a lot of people don't know this a lot of people don't know this a lot of people don't know this including a lot of people who've read a including a lot of people who've read a including a lot of people who've read a lot about world war ii lot about world war ii lot about world war ii um um um we did not have a joint chiefs of staff we did not have a joint chiefs of staff we did not have a joint chiefs of staff organization prior to the attack on organization prior to the attack on organization prior to the attack on pearl harbor uh there was a board which pearl harbor uh there was a board which pearl harbor uh there was a board which was sort of a liaison organization of was sort of a liaison organization of was sort of a liaison organization of generals and admirals who kind of generals and admirals who kind of generals and admirals who kind of loosely coordinated their planning loosely coordinated their planning loosely coordinated their planning but there was really no but there was really no but there was really no sustained attempt to blend the sustained attempt to blend the sustained attempt to blend the operations of the army the navy operations of the army the navy operations of the army the navy in what was emerging as these two other in what was emerging as these two other in what was emerging as these two other services under the umbrella of the army services under the umbrella of the army services under the umbrella of the army and navy the army air forces and navy the army air forces and navy the army air forces uh and in the case of the navy the uh and in the case of the navy the uh and in the case of the navy the marines marines marines um both sort of emerging as increasingly um both sort of emerging as increasingly um both sort of emerging as increasingly independent organizations within the independent organizations within the independent organizations within the army and the war and navy departments army and the war and navy departments army and the war and navy departments and so really we we had um we had a very and so really we we had um we had a very and so really we we had um we had a very sort of decentralized um poorly sort of decentralized um poorly sort of decentralized um poorly coordinated military prior to the war coordinated military prior to the war coordinated military prior to the war and it was really only under the and it was really only under the and it was really only under the pressure of the emergency of the attack pressure of the emergency of the attack pressure of the emergency of the attack on pearl harbor on pearl harbor on pearl harbor and then the first uh british uh summit and then the first uh british uh summit and then the first uh british uh summit which occurred which occurred which occurred literally just weeks after pearl harbor literally just weeks after pearl harbor literally just weeks after pearl harbor when the churchill and his um military when the churchill and his um military when the churchill and his um military uh chiefs came to washington to sort of

uh chiefs came to washington to sort of uh chiefs came to washington to sort of begin to plan how we were going to deal begin to plan how we were going to deal begin to plan how we were going to deal with this crisis with this crisis with this crisis and it was only under that pressure that and it was only under that pressure that and it was only under that pressure that our uh chiefs our our uh chiefs our our uh chiefs our chief of naval operations and our army chief of naval operations and our army chief of naval operations and our army chief of staff george marshall uh got chief of staff george marshall uh got chief of staff george marshall uh got together and said listen we've got to together and said listen we've got to together and said listen we've got to have some sort of way of organizing have some sort of way of organizing have some sort of way of organizing ourselves so why don't we just start ourselves so why don't we just start ourselves so why don't we just start meeting and they call themselves the meeting and they call themselves the meeting and they call themselves the joint chiefs all of that was ad hoc uh joint chiefs all of that was ad hoc uh joint chiefs all of that was ad hoc uh there was no legislative charter and um there was no legislative charter and um there was no legislative charter and um and essentially they just ran the war as and essentially they just ran the war as and essentially they just ran the war as this sort of informal committee this sort of informal committee this sort of informal committee and the joint chiefs of staff and the joint chiefs of staff and the joint chiefs of staff organization was not formally codified organization was not formally codified organization was not formally codified in our laws until uh 1947 with the in our laws until uh 1947 with the in our laws until uh 1947 with the national security act it created the the national security act it created the the national security act it created the the structure that exists today at the structure that exists today at the structure that exists today at the pentagon pentagon pentagon and so all of that is just a long-winded and so all of that is just a long-winded and so all of that is just a long-winded way of saying uh that our military way of saying uh that our military way of saying uh that our military really was not prepared to fight a really was not prepared to fight a really was not prepared to fight a global war which would require these global war which would require these global war which would require these different services to work together and different services to work together and different services to work together and sustained an intricate cooperation they sustained an intricate cooperation they sustained an intricate cooperation they had to figure that out had to figure that out had to figure that out uh on essentially week by week as they uh on essentially week by week as they uh on essentially week by week as they were dealing with this military were dealing with this military were dealing with this military emergency emergency emergency in the pacific uh the problem was even in the pacific uh the problem was even in the pacific uh the problem was even greater than it was in europe certainly greater than it was in europe certainly greater than it was in europe certainly was an issue in europe as well but in was an issue in europe as well but in was an issue in europe as well but in the pacific you had as i said earlier the pacific you had as i said earlier the pacific you had as i said earlier looking at a map of the pacific you looking at a map of the pacific you looking at a map of the pacific you quickly grasped that the fundamental quickly grasped that the fundamental quickly grasped that the fundamental strategic problem is how do you deal strategic problem is how do you deal strategic problem is how do you deal with the rampaging japanese fleet you with the rampaging japanese fleet you with the rampaging japanese fleet you have to destroy japanese naval power have to destroy japanese naval power have to destroy japanese naval power before you can project your military before you can project your military before you can project your military forces across the pacific in a way that forces across the pacific in a way that forces across the pacific in a way that will force japan to surrender and so

will force japan to surrender and so will force japan to surrender and so that's a job for your navy and also your that's a job for your navy and also your that's a job for your navy and also your air forces your air forces air forces your air forces air forces your air forces of course you have naval and army air of course you have naval and army air of course you have naval and army air forces they have to work together and forces they have to work together and forces they have to work together and then you have to take uh islands uh to then you have to take uh islands uh to then you have to take uh islands uh to as naval bases as air bases uh and to as naval bases as air bases uh and to as naval bases as air bases uh and to support the logistics drive across the support the logistics drive across the support the logistics drive across the pacific and to take islands you pacific and to take islands you pacific and to take islands you essentially have to develop this this essentially have to develop this this essentially have to develop this this particularly specialized particularly specialized particularly specialized branch of warfare called amphibious branch of warfare called amphibious branch of warfare called amphibious warfare warfare warfare which the marines had really focused on which the marines had really focused on which the marines had really focused on and they were the organization that was and they were the organization that was and they were the organization that was best prepared had done the most training best prepared had done the most training best prepared had done the most training had developed the equipment for for um had developed the equipment for for um had developed the equipment for for um storming even heavily defended beaches storming even heavily defended beaches storming even heavily defended beaches that were in some cases thousands of that were in some cases thousands of that were in some cases thousands of miles away from any uh allied base and miles away from any uh allied base and miles away from any uh allied base and so uh the very nature of the pacific war so uh the very nature of the pacific war so uh the very nature of the pacific war was that you had to force these services was that you had to force these services was that you had to force these services which were not prepared to work together which were not prepared to work together which were not prepared to work together to work together and in in doing so of to work together and in in doing so of to work together and in in doing so of course uh that would expose all of the course uh that would expose all of the course uh that would expose all of the frictions the prejudices the biases the frictions the prejudices the biases the frictions the prejudices the biases the parochialism uh that parochialism uh that parochialism uh that was natural among was natural among was natural among military leaders who had grown up in military leaders who had grown up in military leaders who had grown up in these very siloed kinds of organizations these very siloed kinds of organizations these very siloed kinds of organizations and overlaid on top of that just to make and overlaid on top of that just to make and overlaid on top of that just to make the whole thing even more complex the whole thing even more complex the whole thing even more complex you had in douglas macarthur a sort of a you had in douglas macarthur a sort of a you had in douglas macarthur a sort of a singular figure singular figure singular figure really no one else like him in the really no one else like him in the really no one else like him in the american military in any branch of the american military in any branch of the american military in any branch of the american military someone who became american military someone who became american military someone who became very very famous very quickly uh very very famous very quickly uh very very famous very quickly uh literally just in the week the two weeks literally just in the week the two weeks literally just in the week the two weeks after pearl harbor had skyrocketed to after pearl harbor had skyrocketed to after pearl harbor had skyrocketed to this kind of position of

this kind of position of this kind of position of um being regarded almost as a kind of um being regarded almost as a kind of um being regarded almost as a kind of demigod by the american people because demigod by the american people because demigod by the american people because of the the lavish press coverage that of the the lavish press coverage that of the the lavish press coverage that his campaign in the pacific had deceived his campaign in the pacific had deceived his campaign in the pacific had deceived and he was a i think fair to say a kind and he was a i think fair to say a kind and he was a i think fair to say a kind of narcissistic figure of narcissistic figure of narcissistic figure who really wanted to place himself at who really wanted to place himself at who really wanted to place himself at the center of this conflict against the center of this conflict against the center of this conflict against japan uh was jealous of others who would japan uh was jealous of others who would japan uh was jealous of others who would receive attention and who uh you know receive attention and who uh you know receive attention and who uh you know very aggressively was willing to use his very aggressively was willing to use his very aggressively was willing to use his fame as political influence fame as political influence fame as political influence in order to try to force the war uh to in order to try to force the war uh to in order to try to force the war uh to be fought according to the ideas that be fought according to the ideas that be fought according to the ideas that that he had uh on how it should be that he had uh on how it should be that he had uh on how it should be fought which really meant returning to fought which really meant returning to fought which really meant returning to the philippines first the philippines first the philippines first uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and essentially in order to essentially in order to essentially in order to accommodate accommodate accommodate macarthur's macarthur's macarthur's immense personality immense personality immense personality the way the war was set up was we the way the war was set up was we the way the war was set up was we divided the pacific into two separate divided the pacific into two separate divided the pacific into two separate feeders and you had macarthur in feeders and you had macarthur in feeders and you had macarthur in australia australia australia command in the south pacific then you command in the south pacific then you command in the south pacific then you had the navy with nimitz as commander in had the navy with nimitz as commander in had the navy with nimitz as commander in chief in hawaii chief in hawaii chief in hawaii and his realm included essentially and his realm included essentially and his realm included essentially everything north of the equator everything north of the equator everything north of the equator and these two guys and these two guys and these two guys both reported to the joint chiefs in both reported to the joint chiefs in both reported to the joint chiefs in washington washington washington and and and they could talk to each and and and they could talk to each and and and they could talk to each other informally uh but any conflict other informally uh but any conflict other informally uh but any conflict between them would have to be resolved between them would have to be resolved between them would have to be resolved in washington and so you had that in washington and so you had that in washington and so you had that element laid atop uh what was already a element laid atop uh what was already a element laid atop uh what was already a pretty messy situation in the way that pretty messy situation in the way that pretty messy situation in the way that the services had to to work together and the services had to to work together and the services had to to work together and so so so when you when you look at all of those when you when you look at all of those when you when you look at all of those issues all of those problems uh all of

issues all of those problems uh all of issues all of those problems uh all of all of those those frictions those all of those those frictions those all of those those frictions those inherent frictions um it's remarkable i inherent frictions um it's remarkable i inherent frictions um it's remarkable i think think think that our military was able to to kind of that our military was able to to kind of that our military was able to to kind of get itself together uh and win this war get itself together uh and win this war get itself together uh and win this war in less than four years in less than four years in less than four years well and you think about i mean you know well and you think about i mean you know well and you think about i mean you know you talked about macarthur almost being you talked about macarthur almost being you talked about macarthur almost being a demigod but i feel like it's a pain a demigod but i feel like it's a pain a demigod but i feel like it's a pain you know when you look at all of the the you know when you look at all of the the you know when you look at all of the the august military figures from that day august military figures from that day august military figures from that day it's like a giant cast of stars with it's like a giant cast of stars with it's like a giant cast of stars with macarthur maybe as the as the superstar macarthur maybe as the as the superstar macarthur maybe as the as the superstar but i think about how but i think about how but i think about how overwhelming these people were in terms overwhelming these people were in terms overwhelming these people were in terms of force of personality and and the of force of personality and and the of force of personality and and the depth of their experience that when some depth of their experience that when some depth of their experience that when some guy like fdr who has been the ring guy like fdr who has been the ring guy like fdr who has been the ring master sort of who who for so many years master sort of who who for so many years master sort of who who for so many years is able to juggle all these enormous is able to juggle all these enormous is able to juggle all these enormous personalities and work them against each personalities and work them against each personalities and work them against each other and charm them all when he leaves other and charm them all when he leaves other and charm them all when he leaves the scene because he dies in office and the scene because he dies in office and the scene because he dies in office and leaves it to a guy who's been vice leaves it to a guy who's been vice leaves it to a guy who's been vice president for about two seconds president for about two seconds president for about two seconds and who doesn't necessarily and who doesn't necessarily and who doesn't necessarily remind one of some august super strong remind one of some august super strong remind one of some august super strong personality and you throw him into a personality and you throw him into a personality and you throw him into a room where he's got to make decisions room where he's got to make decisions room where he's got to make decisions between these people who may be of between these people who may be of between these people who may be of different opinions on things right um it different opinions on things right um it different opinions on things right um it makes me wonder how different the war makes me wonder how different the war makes me wonder how different the war would have gone had fdr managed to to would have gone had fdr managed to to would have gone had fdr managed to to ride it out health-wise until the end uh ride it out health-wise until the end uh ride it out health-wise until the end uh how much does a green harry truman how much does a green harry truman how much does a green harry truman change things or does it just sort of change things or does it just sort of change things or does it just sort of run on autopilot do you think um because run on autopilot do you think um because run on autopilot do you think um because of the you know you got you're not going of the you know you got you're not going of the you know you got you're not going to over overwhelm a macarthur who fdr to over overwhelm a macarthur who fdr to over overwhelm a macarthur who fdr once called as you know uh one of the once called as you know uh one of the once called as you know uh one of the two most dangerous men in the world

two most dangerous men in the world two most dangerous men in the world along with huey long you're not gonna along with huey long you're not gonna along with huey long you're not gonna you're not gonna overwhelm him as a you're not gonna overwhelm him as a you're not gonna overwhelm him as a matter of fact we as we know that that matter of fact we as we know that that matter of fact we as we know that that will come to a head in the next war in will come to a head in the next war in will come to a head in the next war in korea where harry truman and douglas korea where harry truman and douglas korea where harry truman and douglas macarthur will bump heads but i mean it macarthur will bump heads but i mean it macarthur will bump heads but i mean it do does it run on autopilot or do you do does it run on autopilot or do you do does it run on autopilot or do you think truman put his his stamp on the think truman put his his stamp on the think truman put his his stamp on the way the war finished up at all well i way the war finished up at all well i way the war finished up at all well i think the war in europe was was think the war in europe was was think the war in europe was was virtually done um fdr died i think virtually done um fdr died i think virtually done um fdr died i think almost exactly a year before almost exactly a year before almost exactly a year before victory in europe day be day victory in europe day be day victory in europe day be day and so and so and so i would say that um the situation in i would say that um the situation in i would say that um the situation in europe at least the war in europe uh was europe at least the war in europe uh was europe at least the war in europe uh was on autopilot the negotiations with on autopilot the negotiations with on autopilot the negotiations with stalin in particular were not stalin in particular were not stalin in particular were not uh and so um uh and so um uh and so um truman definitely had to step into some truman definitely had to step into some truman definitely had to step into some very large shoes there quickly very large shoes there quickly very large shoes there quickly the war in in the war in in the war in in the pacific there is a lot of the pacific there is a lot of the pacific there is a lot of counter-factual speculation that you can counter-factual speculation that you can counter-factual speculation that you can do in the scenario where fdr lived do in the scenario where fdr lived do in the scenario where fdr lived um um um you know so much of of our government's you know so much of of our government's you know so much of of our government's um um um uh thinking about how to end the war in uh thinking about how to end the war in uh thinking about how to end the war in the pacific turned on this idea of the pacific turned on this idea of the pacific turned on this idea of you know what does um you know what does um you know what does um this unconditional surrender formulation this unconditional surrender formulation this unconditional surrender formulation require of us fdr had set this thing out require of us fdr had set this thing out require of us fdr had set this thing out he it was a very personal decision that he it was a very personal decision that he it was a very personal decision that he made he made he made to make unconditional surrender to make unconditional surrender to make unconditional surrender uh the um uh the um uh the um the essentially the asking price uh for the essentially the asking price uh for the essentially the asking price uh for peace peace peace and uh you know he had gone back to to and uh you know he had gone back to to and uh you know he had gone back to to an inaccurate anecdote about how the an inaccurate anecdote about how the an inaccurate anecdote about how the american civil war had ended um but american civil war had ended um but american civil war had ended um but clearly what he had in mind was avoiding

clearly what he had in mind was avoiding clearly what he had in mind was avoiding a reprise of the end of the first world a reprise of the end of the first world a reprise of the end of the first world war in europe in which the seeds of of war in europe in which the seeds of of war in europe in which the seeds of of the second world war had been planted the second world war had been planted the second world war had been planted and the rise of nazism after and the rise of nazism after and the rise of nazism after uh the treaty of versailles and so he he uh the treaty of versailles and so he he uh the treaty of versailles and so he he wanted to to be sure that germany and wanted to to be sure that germany and wanted to to be sure that germany and japan were defeated utterly and japan were defeated utterly and japan were defeated utterly and critically that the people of those critically that the people of those critically that the people of those countries understand understood that countries understand understood that countries understand understood that they had been defeated utterly and so he they had been defeated utterly and so he they had been defeated utterly and so he had insisted upon this unconditional had insisted upon this unconditional had insisted upon this unconditional surrender formulation surrender formulation surrender formulation and then he dies and and our our leaders and then he dies and and our our leaders and then he dies and and our our leaders are kind of left with this question of are kind of left with this question of are kind of left with this question of well we have to we have to do justice to well we have to we have to do justice to well we have to we have to do justice to to what our dead chief wanted to what our dead chief wanted to what our dead chief wanted and for our own credibility we have to and for our own credibility we have to and for our own credibility we have to insist upon unconditional threat but insist upon unconditional threat but insist upon unconditional threat but what does that mean exactly what does that mean exactly what does that mean exactly unconditional surrender it seems simple unconditional surrender it seems simple unconditional surrender it seems simple but when you start to spin out all the but when you start to spin out all the but when you start to spin out all the possible permutations of how a surrender possible permutations of how a surrender possible permutations of how a surrender might occur uh it raises uh more might occur uh it raises uh more might occur uh it raises uh more questions than it answers questions than it answers questions than it answers and so uh truman steps into this and so uh truman steps into this and so uh truman steps into this situation in which we you know we do not situation in which we you know we do not situation in which we you know we do not have a very clear idea of what we expect have a very clear idea of what we expect have a very clear idea of what we expect from the japanese in terms of how this from the japanese in terms of how this from the japanese in terms of how this surrender will occur we do not want to surrender will occur we do not want to surrender will occur we do not want to invade those islands invade those islands invade those islands we have this new weapon the atomic bomb we have this new weapon the atomic bomb we have this new weapon the atomic bomb truman by the way had not been briefed truman by the way had not been briefed truman by the way had not been briefed on the existence of the atomic bomb on the existence of the atomic bomb on the existence of the atomic bomb which seems like an extraordinary which seems like an extraordinary which seems like an extraordinary oversight um considering that fdr was in oversight um considering that fdr was in oversight um considering that fdr was in failing health his doctors knew he was failing health his doctors knew he was failing health his doctors knew he was in failing health in failing health in failing health uh and and yet uh truman was simply not uh and and yet uh truman was simply not uh and and yet uh truman was simply not prepared he had not been properly prepared he had not been properly prepared he had not been properly briefed briefed briefed uh and it seems like really an

uh and it seems like really an uh and it seems like really an extraordinary failure of um just the extraordinary failure of um just the extraordinary failure of um just the principles of constitutional government principles of constitutional government principles of constitutional government and that's something that i think fdr and that's something that i think fdr and that's something that i think fdr has to his legacy has to has to be has to his legacy has to has to be has to his legacy has to has to be charged with that failure charged with that failure charged with that failure um but uh you know so so the the um but uh you know so so the the um but uh you know so so the the counterfactual questions are you know counterfactual questions are you know counterfactual questions are you know would we have used the atomic bombs in would we have used the atomic bombs in would we have used the atomic bombs in the way that we use them the way that we use them the way that we use them uh uh uh you know so often the question of the you know so often the question of the you know so often the question of the atomic bombs is kind of reduced to a atomic bombs is kind of reduced to a atomic bombs is kind of reduced to a binary should we or shouldn't we have binary should we or shouldn't we have binary should we or shouldn't we have used them i think the harder question is used them i think the harder question is used them i think the harder question is should we have used them in the way that should we have used them in the way that should we have used them in the way that we use them in particular should we have we use them in particular should we have we use them in particular should we have dropped them without any sort of dropped them without any sort of dropped them without any sort of explicit prior warning and should we explicit prior warning and should we explicit prior warning and should we have dropped them on cities rather than have dropped them on cities rather than have dropped them on cities rather than on a military base at least the first on a military base at least the first on a military base at least the first one one one and um and and um and and um and it's you know you one can only speculate it's you know you one can only speculate it's you know you one can only speculate really because there is so little that really because there is so little that really because there is so little that fdr said there's so little in the fdr said there's so little in the fdr said there's so little in the historical record indicating what his historical record indicating what his historical record indicating what his thinking was particularly about the use thinking was particularly about the use thinking was particularly about the use of these weapons of these weapons of these weapons um and yet uh i think it's clear that he um and yet uh i think it's clear that he um and yet uh i think it's clear that he would have would have would have seen them as a weapon that should be seen them as a weapon that should be seen them as a weapon that should be used if there was a way to avoid used if there was a way to avoid used if there was a way to avoid invading japan um and yet would he have invading japan um and yet would he have invading japan um and yet would he have consented to drop them on cities rather consented to drop them on cities rather consented to drop them on cities rather than on military targets i think that's than on military targets i think that's than on military targets i think that's a hard question to ask i think certainly a hard question to ask i think certainly a hard question to ask i think certainly you could argue that fdr uh would have you could argue that fdr uh would have you could argue that fdr uh would have said we dropped the first one on a said we dropped the first one on a said we dropped the first one on a military target i'm the military target i'm the military target i'm the commander-in-chief i've i've said uh commander-in-chief i've i've said uh commander-in-chief i've i've said uh what we're doing and i'm not taking any what we're doing and i'm not taking any what we're doing and i'm not taking any backtalk from any of you guys was with backtalk from any of you guys was with backtalk from any of you guys was with uh gold braid and stars uh gold braid and stars uh gold braid and stars certainly he would not have felt any certainly he would not have felt any certainly he would not have felt any compunction about ruling directly on the compunction about ruling directly on the compunction about ruling directly on the question in that respect uh in a way

question in that respect uh in a way question in that respect uh in a way that truman i don't think was ready to that truman i don't think was ready to that truman i don't think was ready to do that do that do that that's the real counterfactual i think that's the real counterfactual i think that's the real counterfactual i think is would we have used the bombs and the is would we have used the bombs and the is would we have used the bombs and the way that we use them if fdr lived and way that we use them if fdr lived and way that we use them if fdr lived and you know as i said i think it's you know as i said i think it's you know as i said i think it's speculative but i think there are some speculative but i think there are some speculative but i think there are some good reasons to believe that we would good reasons to believe that we would good reasons to believe that we would not have used them in the way that we not have used them in the way that we not have used them in the way that we use them uh had uh fdr live through the use them uh had uh fdr live through the use them uh had uh fdr live through the end of the war end of the war end of the war you know when you look at the second you know when you look at the second you know when you look at the second world war um world war um world war um you know you read book books like neil you know you read book books like neil you know you read book books like neil ferguson's works for example and and you ferguson's works for example and and you ferguson's works for example and and you realize what a what a large role race realize what a what a large role race realize what a what a large role race played in the whole thing so in in played in the whole thing so in in played in the whole thing so in in europe you have the whole master race europe you have the whole master race europe you have the whole master race question involved in in nazi ideology in question involved in in nazi ideology in question involved in in nazi ideology in asia both sides can be called racist asia both sides can be called racist asia both sides can be called racist because the japanese have have a sort of because the japanese have have a sort of because the japanese have have a sort of a master race philosophy the americans a master race philosophy the americans a master race philosophy the americans and the and the british and the french and the and the british and the french and the and the british and the french and the western powers look upon the and the western powers look upon the and the western powers look upon the japanese the way they look upon a lot of japanese the way they look upon a lot of japanese the way they look upon a lot of different non-white peoples um different non-white peoples um different non-white peoples um how much and there's been a lot of good how much and there's been a lot of good how much and there's been a lot of good works lately about the racial aspect but works lately about the racial aspect but works lately about the racial aspect but but if we were fighting and i don't want but if we were fighting and i don't want but if we were fighting and i don't want to say fighting scandinavians because to say fighting scandinavians because to say fighting scandinavians because basically everything we did to the basically everything we did to the basically everything we did to the japanese we did to the germans too in japanese we did to the germans too in japanese we did to the germans too in terms of bombing and everything else and terms of bombing and everything else and terms of bombing and everything else and the atomic bomb was developed to be the atomic bomb was developed to be the atomic bomb was developed to be dropped on germany so in that sense but dropped on germany so in that sense but dropped on germany so in that sense but but how much does do you think now but how much does do you think now but how much does do you think now if we had more of the i was going to say if we had more of the i was going to say if we had more of the i was going to say racial racial racial racial tolerance thinking of the sort we racial tolerance thinking of the sort we racial tolerance thinking of the sort we have today but some would argue about have today but some would argue about have today but some would argue about that but i think it would be a different that but i think it would be a different that but i think it would be a different war compared to the 1940s war compared to the 1940s war compared to the 1940s um um um views on race that weren't just views on race that weren't just views on race that weren't just something in the west but that most something in the west but that most something in the west but that most countries had a different view on uh countries had a different view on uh countries had a different view on uh skin color culture background uh

skin color culture background uh skin color culture background uh stereotypes and all that kind of stuff stereotypes and all that kind of stuff stereotypes and all that kind of stuff talk to me a little bit about the the talk to me a little bit about the the talk to me a little bit about the the race idea in the pacific asia theater in race idea in the pacific asia theater in race idea in the pacific asia theater in the second world war the second world war the second world war yeah well you know clearly race race yeah well you know clearly race race yeah well you know clearly race race hatred was was at the center of the hatred was was at the center of the hatred was was at the center of the propaganda of both the allies and the propaganda of both the allies and the propaganda of both the allies and the japanese japanese japanese and uh and uh and uh you know it was partly the way that the you know it was partly the way that the you know it was partly the way that the japanese had conducted themselves during japanese had conducted themselves during japanese had conducted themselves during the war i think aroused this peculiar the war i think aroused this peculiar the war i think aroused this peculiar race hatred race hatred race hatred many of those who would engage in the many of those who would engage in the many of those who would engage in the most awful sorts of rhetoric uh i mean most awful sorts of rhetoric uh i mean most awful sorts of rhetoric uh i mean i'm thinking of a a parade that occurred i'm thinking of a a parade that occurred i'm thinking of a a parade that occurred in fifth avenue manhattan in june 1942 in fifth avenue manhattan in june 1942 in fifth avenue manhattan in june 1942 is the same month as the battle of is the same month as the battle of is the same month as the battle of midway midway midway uh and it was essentially a parade to uh and it was essentially a parade to uh and it was essentially a parade to celebrate the city's participation celebrate the city's participation celebrate the city's participation mobilizing for war and they had these mobilizing for war and they had these mobilizing for war and they had these huge parade floats uh which were rats huge parade floats uh which were rats huge parade floats uh which were rats and and and wearing japanese army uniforms wearing japanese army uniforms wearing japanese army uniforms and and and you almost have to sort of rub your eyes you almost have to sort of rub your eyes you almost have to sort of rub your eyes when you see these things you realize when you see these things you realize when you see these things you realize it's not that long ago within living it's not that long ago within living it's not that long ago within living memory in new york city memory in new york city memory in new york city uh in in which really the most virulent uh in in which really the most virulent uh in in which really the most virulent sorts of metaphors were used to denounce sorts of metaphors were used to denounce sorts of metaphors were used to denounce an entire race of people um an entire race of people um an entire race of people um you know it was a it was a different you know it was a it was a different you know it was a it was a different time as a different war time as a different war time as a different war uh many of those who engaged in in that uh many of those who engaged in in that uh many of those who engaged in in that that sort of uh you know racist uh that sort of uh you know racist uh that sort of uh you know racist uh rhetoric uh were also genuinely rhetoric uh were also genuinely rhetoric uh were also genuinely sympathetic to the chinese and saw the sympathetic to the chinese and saw the sympathetic to the chinese and saw the chinese as our allies and um

chinese as our allies and um chinese as our allies and um and were moved by the suffering of the and were moved by the suffering of the and were moved by the suffering of the chinese at the hands of the japanese chinese at the hands of the japanese chinese at the hands of the japanese um um um so you know i so you know i so you know i i just think i i just think i i just think i one of the undertold stories just one of the undertold stories just one of the undertold stories just occurring to me now occurring to me now occurring to me now in in the pacific was the role of the in in the pacific was the role of the in in the pacific was the role of the nisei the japanese-americans we know nisei the japanese-americans we know nisei the japanese-americans we know well that one of the most decorated well that one of the most decorated well that one of the most decorated regiments in the army was a japanese regiments in the army was a japanese regiments in the army was a japanese american hawaiian regiment that fought american hawaiian regiment that fought american hawaiian regiment that fought in italy in italy in italy um but you had japanese americans from um but you had japanese americans from um but you had japanese americans from hawaii and hawaii and hawaii and california and the west coast california and the west coast california and the west coast uh who were uh who were uh who were serving as translators during these serving as translators during these serving as translators during these these battles in these battles in these battles in okinawa and saipan and the philippines okinawa and saipan and the philippines okinawa and saipan and the philippines and there were cases of extraordinary and there were cases of extraordinary and there were cases of extraordinary extraordinary heroism extraordinary heroism extraordinary heroism on the part of these americans many of on the part of these americans many of on the part of these americans many of whom had their families interned in whom had their families interned in whom had their families interned in camps camps camps back home back home back home who were would um you know there's a who were would um you know there's a who were would um you know there's a there's a story of a uh you know one of there's a story of a uh you know one of there's a story of a uh you know one of these guys who's really just his job is these guys who's really just his job is these guys who's really just his job is just to be a translator but he grabs a just to be a translator but he grabs a just to be a translator but he grabs a grenade he goes he knocks on the grenade he goes he knocks on the grenade he goes he knocks on the hatch of a japanese tank he addresses hatch of a japanese tank he addresses hatch of a japanese tank he addresses them in japanese telling them that he them in japanese telling them that he them in japanese telling them that he has a message from the colonel they open has a message from the colonel they open has a message from the colonel they open the hatch he drops a grenade in the hatch he drops a grenade in the hatch he drops a grenade in you had you had you had japanese-american translators descending japanese-american translators descending japanese-american translators descending into caves in okinawa negotiating for into caves in okinawa negotiating for into caves in okinawa negotiating for the surrender face to face with people the surrender face to face with people the surrender face to face with people who could easily kill them who could easily kill them who could easily kill them volunteering to do this not because they volunteering to do this not because they volunteering to do this not because they were ordered to do it uh and and when were ordered to do it uh and and when were ordered to do it uh and and when you when you um realize that they were you when you um realize that they were you when you um realize that they were making these kinds of sacrifices you making these kinds of sacrifices you making these kinds of sacrifices you realize um you know just how perverse it

realize um you know just how perverse it realize um you know just how perverse it was really for us to have allowed uh was really for us to have allowed uh was really for us to have allowed uh our own propaganda in many cases to use our own propaganda in many cases to use our own propaganda in many cases to use the kinds of um the kinds of um the kinds of um uh you know really repulsive racial uh you know really repulsive racial uh you know really repulsive racial stereotypes and hateful rhetoric that stereotypes and hateful rhetoric that stereotypes and hateful rhetoric that that we engaged in and you know i don't that we engaged in and you know i don't that we engaged in and you know i don't see myself as a prosecutor uh see myself as a prosecutor uh see myself as a prosecutor uh you know i i think you have to recognize you know i i think you have to recognize you know i i think you have to recognize that this was a very different time and that this was a very different time and that this was a very different time and very extreme circumstances and yet when very extreme circumstances and yet when very extreme circumstances and yet when you look at that uh certainly as an you look at that uh certainly as an you look at that uh certainly as an american you you sort of wish that we american you you sort of wish that we american you you sort of wish that we could have done some of those things could have done some of those things could have done some of those things differently differently differently you know it's funny though those sorts you know it's funny though those sorts you know it's funny though those sorts of backdrops do allow for of backdrops do allow for of backdrops do allow for uh some of the more wonderful human uh some of the more wonderful human uh some of the more wonderful human moments to come out i'm reminded there moments to come out i'm reminded there moments to come out i'm reminded there was a i think it was in john tolen's was a i think it was in john tolen's was a i think it was in john tolen's book there was a scene during the the book there was a scene during the the book there was a scene during the the bataan death march i think it was where bataan death march i think it was where bataan death march i think it was where some japanese officer i'm gonna get it some japanese officer i'm gonna get it some japanese officer i'm gonna get it wrong here but but sees like a class wrong here but but sees like a class wrong here but but sees like a class ring on one of the americans from like ring on one of the americans from like ring on one of the americans from like notre dame or usc or something and walks notre dame or usc or something and walks notre dame or usc or something and walks up and embraces them because they were up and embraces them because they were up and embraces them because they were there and said you know what class were there and said you know what class were there and said you know what class were you i mean those moments where because you i mean those moments where because you i mean those moments where because you're in such a hell you're in such a hell you're in such a hell those those human those those human those those human those little human connections seem to those little human connections seem to those little human connections seem to stand out so much more um stand out so much more um stand out so much more um and and you know i think about and you'd and and you know i think about and you'd and and you know i think about and you'd mention that the prisoners of war and mention that the prisoners of war and mention that the prisoners of war and all that one of the things that when you all that one of the things that when you all that one of the things that when you talked and there very few of them left i talked and there very few of them left i talked and there very few of them left i guess but when you talk to veterans from guess but when you talk to veterans from guess but when you talk to veterans from the second world war did you ever notice the second world war did you ever notice the second world war did you ever notice the difference in the in the pacific the difference in the in the pacific the difference in the in the pacific veterans um remembrances or attitudes veterans um remembrances or attitudes veterans um remembrances or attitudes after the war and and the ones in the after the war and and the ones in the after the war and and the ones in the european theater in north africa or in european theater in north africa or in european theater in north africa or in italy uh it just seemed like there was a

italy uh it just seemed like there was a italy uh it just seemed like there was a lot more lingering uh bitterness on the lot more lingering uh bitterness on the lot more lingering uh bitterness on the pacific veterans parts uh at least in my pacific veterans parts uh at least in my pacific veterans parts uh at least in my experience did you notice that as well experience did you notice that as well experience did you notice that as well oh absolutely yeah yeah i mean you know oh absolutely yeah yeah i mean you know oh absolutely yeah yeah i mean you know there were many many um there were many many um there were many many um uh american and and i i think also uh american and and i i think also uh american and and i i think also allied british canadian australian new allied british canadian australian new allied british canadian australian new zealand uh troops zealand uh troops zealand uh troops um who just never were able to to um um who just never were able to to um um who just never were able to to um overcome this kind of deeply felt hatred overcome this kind of deeply felt hatred overcome this kind of deeply felt hatred for all japanese and for the entire for all japanese and for the entire for all japanese and for the entire nation nation nation uh of the japanese uh of the japanese uh of the japanese interestingly um interestingly um interestingly um there is a there is a there is a real difference in the way that those real difference in the way that those real difference in the way that those troops who served in the occupation in troops who served in the occupation in troops who served in the occupation in japan after the war felt and and i don't japan after the war felt and and i don't japan after the war felt and and i don't have any have any have any survey data i mean you know if there had survey data i mean you know if there had survey data i mean you know if there had been some survey data i think it would been some survey data i think it would been some survey data i think it would have borne this out because it's it's it have borne this out because it's it's it have borne this out because it's it's it was a fascinating pattern that i've seen was a fascinating pattern that i've seen was a fascinating pattern that i've seen in my interviews with hundreds and in my interviews with hundreds and in my interviews with hundreds and hundreds of world war ii veterans hundreds of world war ii veterans hundreds of world war ii veterans those who were in japan after the war those who were in japan after the war those who were in japan after the war serving with the occupation they tended serving with the occupation they tended serving with the occupation they tended to have a much more nuanced view of the to have a much more nuanced view of the to have a much more nuanced view of the japanese and even very warm feelings japanese and even very warm feelings japanese and even very warm feelings toward the japanese they grasp very toward the japanese they grasp very toward the japanese they grasp very quickly quickly quickly uh that the way that um the japanese uh that the way that um the japanese uh that the way that um the japanese army had conducted itself on the army had conducted itself on the army had conducted itself on the battlefield battlefield battlefield and the way that many of our prisoners and the way that many of our prisoners and the way that many of our prisoners had been treated was not a reflection of had been treated was not a reflection of had been treated was not a reflection of the japanese people overall but were the japanese people overall but were the japanese people overall but were those were specific crimes committed by those were specific crimes committed by those were specific crimes committed by specific people specific people specific people and that ordinary japanese people had and that ordinary japanese people had and that ordinary japanese people had been in a sense victims of the war as been in a sense victims of the war as been in a sense victims of the war as well that was a realization that came

well that was a realization that came well that was a realization that came much more naturally in my experience much more naturally in my experience much more naturally in my experience speaking again just to many hundreds of speaking again just to many hundreds of speaking again just to many hundreds of veterans veterans veterans for those who had been served in japan for those who had been served in japan for those who had been served in japan after the war uh as opposed to those who after the war uh as opposed to those who after the war uh as opposed to those who had never really set foot in japan and had never really set foot in japan and had never really set foot in japan and had just come straight home from the war had just come straight home from the war had just come straight home from the war yes well so just close contact always yes well so just close contact always yes well so just close contact always has the opportunity for people to get to has the opportunity for people to get to has the opportunity for people to get to know one another on a human level um so know one another on a human level um so know one another on a human level um so so so so and i i won't keep you very much longer and i i won't keep you very much longer and i i won't keep you very much longer but i'm curious about like how you but i'm curious about like how you but i'm curious about like how you filter through filter through filter through um the the cold war um the the cold war um the the cold war um um um opaqueness so for example when um um um opaqueness so for example when um um um opaqueness so for example when i was younger trying to figure out i was younger trying to figure out i was younger trying to figure out the role of the emperor in japan was the role of the emperor in japan was the role of the emperor in japan was always colored by uh the needs of the always colored by uh the needs of the always colored by uh the needs of the cold war and having japanese cooperation cold war and having japanese cooperation cold war and having japanese cooperation early on um early on um early on um you know you had talked also about you know you had talked also about you know you had talked also about records becoming available and it makes records becoming available and it makes records becoming available and it makes me think of chinese records now and me think of chinese records now and me think of chinese records now and former soviet records that the russians former soviet records that the russians former soviet records that the russians are releasing um in in in the sense of are releasing um in in in the sense of are releasing um in in in the sense of trying to rewrite the history of of the trying to rewrite the history of of the trying to rewrite the history of of the second world war based on um the the second world war based on um the the second world war based on um the the what's the word i'm looking for the the what's the word i'm looking for the the what's the word i'm looking for the the fact that there were i mean let's let's fact that there were i mean let's let's fact that there were i mean let's let's start with hirohito's role um start with hirohito's role um start with hirohito's role um herbert p bicks wrote a whole book on herbert p bicks wrote a whole book on herbert p bicks wrote a whole book on hirohito and i remember being amazed how hirohito and i remember being amazed how hirohito and i remember being amazed how much it conflicted with uh the the much it conflicted with uh the the much it conflicted with uh the the hirohito as a puppet figure that i had hirohito as a puppet figure that i had hirohito as a puppet figure that i had been taught um been taught um been taught um what is your view on that how do you how what is your view on that how do you how what is your view on that how do you how do you work your way as a researcher do you work your way as a researcher do you work your way as a researcher through the deliberate um uh story of through the deliberate um uh story of through the deliberate um uh story of the cold war that maybe tries to hide the cold war that maybe tries to hide the cold war that maybe tries to hide some of hirohito's uh uh ability to

some of hirohito's uh uh ability to some of hirohito's uh uh ability to influence some of these decisions influence some of these decisions influence some of these decisions yeah well i you know i was a boy in yeah well i you know i was a boy in yeah well i you know i was a boy in japan um japan um japan um dan i i was in japan from dan i i was in japan from dan i i was in japan from 1978 to 1981 i was agent oh i had no 1978 to 1981 i was agent oh i had no 1978 to 1981 i was agent oh i had no idea i was age 11 through 14. um my idea i was age 11 through 14. um my idea i was age 11 through 14. um my father was working for an international father was working for an international father was working for an international bank in japan bank in japan bank in japan and uh hirohito was the emperor then and and uh hirohito was the emperor then and and uh hirohito was the emperor then and uh that's right we would actually go to uh that's right we would actually go to uh that's right we would actually go to the uh we'd go to the imperial palace on the uh we'd go to the imperial palace on the uh we'd go to the imperial palace on his birthday we see him out there you his birthday we see him out there you his birthday we see him out there you know wave into the crowds know wave into the crowds know wave into the crowds he was a beloved figure we had a living he was a beloved figure we had a living he was a beloved figure we had a living a housekeeper who you know had a photo a housekeeper who you know had a photo a housekeeper who you know had a photo of him and who spoke of him as you know of him and who spoke of him as you know of him and who spoke of him as you know almost like a personal father figure and almost like a personal father figure and almost like a personal father figure and so um you know all of that is is very so um you know all of that is is very so um you know all of that is is very sort of personal and sort of personal and sort of personal and you know sort of a visceral you know sort of a visceral you know sort of a visceral understanding of understanding of understanding of they really had this this they really had this this they really had this this he was more than a king he was more than a king he was more than a king really he was not no longer a god uh and really he was not no longer a god uh and really he was not no longer a god uh and i'm talking about the period when i was i'm talking about the period when i was i'm talking about the period when i was there as a boy there as a boy there as a boy um and yet there were still these deep um and yet there were still these deep um and yet there were still these deep feelings of affection feelings of affection feelings of affection that ordinary japanese had felt toward that ordinary japanese had felt toward that ordinary japanese had felt toward him him him and so and so and so you know clearly um the japanese needed you know clearly um the japanese needed you know clearly um the japanese needed uh uh uh i mean it was understood that the the i mean it was understood that the the i mean it was understood that the the continuation of the imperial house after continuation of the imperial house after continuation of the imperial house after the war was in our interests in order to the war was in our interests in order to the war was in our interests in order to ease the occupation ease the occupation ease the occupation um when there were calls for hirohito to um when there were calls for hirohito to um when there were calls for hirohito to be arrested as a war criminal be arrested as a war criminal be arrested as a war criminal potentially prosecuted along with the potentially prosecuted along with the potentially prosecuted along with the the other japanese war criminals at the the other japanese war criminals at the the other japanese war criminals at the tokyo war crimes trials

tokyo war crimes trials tokyo war crimes trials uh um macarthur who opposed this uh said uh um macarthur who opposed this uh said uh um macarthur who opposed this uh said to washington listen if you want to do to washington listen if you want to do to washington listen if you want to do this i need at least 800 000 more troops this i need at least 800 000 more troops this i need at least 800 000 more troops and that quickly put an end to this talk and that quickly put an end to this talk and that quickly put an end to this talk of arresting hirohito and so there were of arresting hirohito and so there were of arresting hirohito and so there were immediate contingent reasons why it was immediate contingent reasons why it was immediate contingent reasons why it was clearly the right thing to do in order clearly the right thing to do in order clearly the right thing to do in order to ease this occupation at the same time to ease this occupation at the same time to ease this occupation at the same time to kind of get japan back on its feet as to kind of get japan back on its feet as to kind of get japan back on its feet as a bulwark against communism because very a bulwark against communism because very a bulwark against communism because very quickly as you say quickly as you say quickly as you say our concern in asia and throughout the our concern in asia and throughout the our concern in asia and throughout the world shifted to toward holding the world shifted to toward holding the world shifted to toward holding the soviet union back and then soviet union back and then soviet union back and then of course china after the civil war of course china after the civil war of course china after the civil war there um and so for all of those reasons there um and so for all of those reasons there um and so for all of those reasons it just made sense to keep hirohito on it just made sense to keep hirohito on it just made sense to keep hirohito on his throne and to make him into a his throne and to make him into a his throne and to make him into a partner um and again for those same partner um and again for those same partner um and again for those same reasons it was not in our interest to reasons it was not in our interest to reasons it was not in our interest to expose precisely the degree to which uh expose precisely the degree to which uh expose precisely the degree to which uh he really had he really had he really had played an active role uh in um played an active role uh in um played an active role uh in um uh commanding his military forces uh at uh commanding his military forces uh at uh commanding his military forces uh at least after the attack on pearl harbor least after the attack on pearl harbor least after the attack on pearl harbor his role is sort of muddled it's his role is sort of muddled it's his role is sort of muddled it's ambiguous he resisted the drift toward ambiguous he resisted the drift toward ambiguous he resisted the drift toward war and then he supported it after it war and then he supported it after it war and then he supported it after it had seemed to go well had seemed to go well had seemed to go well uh and so uh it was really after his uh and so uh it was really after his uh and so uh it was really after his death in 1989 that some of the death in 1989 that some of the death in 1989 that some of the documents that expose this this greater documents that expose this this greater documents that expose this this greater role that he had played that her bix uh role that he had played that her bix uh role that he had played that her bix uh outlined in his pulitzer prize-winning outlined in his pulitzer prize-winning outlined in his pulitzer prize-winning biography you mentioned biography you mentioned biography you mentioned uh in particular the document known as uh in particular the document known as uh in particular the document known as the soliloquy which was the soliloquy which was the soliloquy which was essentially a series of notes taken by essentially a series of notes taken by essentially a series of notes taken by hirohito's private secretary in which he

hirohito's private secretary in which he hirohito's private secretary in which he had reminisced about had reminisced about had reminisced about different aspects of the war uh which different aspects of the war uh which different aspects of the war uh which showed really that he had played this showed really that he had played this showed really that he had played this much more active role um and uh much more active role um and uh much more active role um and uh and so you know i i think it's it's been and so you know i i think it's it's been and so you know i i think it's it's been a process since 1989 for the japanese to a process since 1989 for the japanese to a process since 1989 for the japanese to gradually uh come to understand uh that gradually uh come to understand uh that gradually uh come to understand uh that their emperor you know had not been their emperor you know had not been their emperor you know had not been the person who was presented to them in the person who was presented to them in the person who was presented to them in the mythology the mythology the mythology um and that's continuing and their role um and that's continuing and their role um and that's continuing and their role with their imperial houses today very with their imperial houses today very with their imperial houses today very ending this you've had an emperor who's ending this you've had an emperor who's ending this you've had an emperor who's actually advocated something that had actually advocated something that had actually advocated something that had not happened before and so not happened before and so not happened before and so um uh you know i i think that often in um uh you know i i think that often in um uh you know i i think that often in the west we you know we we tend to say the west we you know we we tend to say the west we you know we we tend to say the japanese simply haven't faced up to the japanese simply haven't faced up to the japanese simply haven't faced up to their history their history their history i think that that's still true to a i think that that's still true to a i think that that's still true to a degree but but um degree but but um degree but but um it often misses the fact that there has it often misses the fact that there has it often misses the fact that there has been quite a bit of progress in japan been quite a bit of progress in japan been quite a bit of progress in japan uh in um beginning to to face up to a uh in um beginning to to face up to a uh in um beginning to to face up to a greater extent greater extent greater extent to the importance of this history and to the importance of this history and to the importance of this history and and um you know now that the eyes of the and um you know now that the eyes of the and um you know now that the eyes of the world are in tokyo as the olympics start world are in tokyo as the olympics start world are in tokyo as the olympics start um um um you know i just don't see any you know i just don't see any you know i just don't see any possibility that in their opening possibility that in their opening possibility that in their opening ceremony they would go back and try to ceremony they would go back and try to ceremony they would go back and try to explain their history uh at least that explain their history uh at least that explain their history uh at least that part of their history but there may a part of their history but there may a part of their history but there may a day may come when when the japanese or day may come when when the japanese or day may come when when the japanese or future generation of japanese may be future generation of japanese may be future generation of japanese may be more willing uh to sort of examine in a more willing uh to sort of examine in a more willing uh to sort of examine in a more public way uh what happened in more public way uh what happened in more public way uh what happened in their period of their dark valley the their period of their dark valley the their period of their dark valley the 1930s through the their defeat in 1945.

1930s through the their defeat in 1945. 1930s through the their defeat in 1945. i think that's a human thing i think i i think that's a human thing i think i i think that's a human thing i think i think most countries in the world have think most countries in the world have think most countries in the world have parts of their population that have a parts of their population that have a parts of their population that have a hard time going back and analyzing hard time going back and analyzing hard time going back and analyzing painful periods when maybe the best painful periods when maybe the best painful periods when maybe the best decisions or the best actions weren't decisions or the best actions weren't decisions or the best actions weren't made uh before i let you go is there made uh before i let you go is there made uh before i let you go is there anything i didn't ask you about that anything i didn't ask you about that anything i didn't ask you about that you'd like to convey the the the the you'd like to convey the the the the you'd like to convey the the the the three book series is a triumph if you three book series is a triumph if you three book series is a triumph if you haven't read it folks um we used it haven't read it folks um we used it haven't read it folks um we used it extensively you have a wonderful way of extensively you have a wonderful way of extensively you have a wonderful way of finding the best historical anecdotes to finding the best historical anecdotes to finding the best historical anecdotes to to pepper the story with that just to pepper the story with that just to pepper the story with that just really really gives a great sense of the really really gives a great sense of the really really gives a great sense of the context is there anything uh that i context is there anything uh that i context is there anything uh that i didn't ask you about that's worth didn't ask you about that's worth didn't ask you about that's worth talking about before i let you go talking about before i let you go talking about before i let you go you know something i was just thinking i you know something i was just thinking i you know something i was just thinking i might as i was out walking this morning might as i was out walking this morning might as i was out walking this morning um you often in your podcast you often um you often in your podcast you often um you often in your podcast you often come up with these these kinds of come up with these these kinds of come up with these these kinds of metaphors that no historian would have metaphors that no historian would have metaphors that no historian would have thought of to make a point well for thought of to make a point well for thought of to make a point well for their careers sake probably but often they kind of get to the heart but often they kind of get to the heart of something and um you know i was just of something and um you know i was just of something and um you know i was just thinking in the pacific war we had um thinking in the pacific war we had um thinking in the pacific war we had um what i lay out in the book as being the what i lay out in the book as being the what i lay out in the book as being the cumulative versus the sequential cumulative versus the sequential cumulative versus the sequential strategies cumulative strategy is strategies cumulative strategy is strategies cumulative strategy is essentially the campaign across the essentially the campaign across the essentially the campaign across the pacific pacific pacific island by island battle by battle you island by island battle by battle you island by island battle by battle you can diagram it on the map with arrows can diagram it on the map with arrows can diagram it on the map with arrows it's the march across the pacific toward it's the march across the pacific toward it's the march across the pacific toward japan then you had the um what they japan then you had the um what they japan then you had the um what they called the cumulative strategies which called the cumulative strategies which called the cumulative strategies which were like the submarine war against were like the submarine war against were like the submarine war against japanese shipping or strategic bombing japanese shipping or strategic bombing japanese shipping or strategic bombing of japanese industries and cities and of japanese industries and cities and of japanese industries and cities and these are rather than discrete battles these are rather than discrete battles these are rather than discrete battles these are our military actions which these are our military actions which these are our military actions which have this kind of cumulative effect of

have this kind of cumulative effect of have this kind of cumulative effect of undermining the japanese economy their undermining the japanese economy their undermining the japanese economy their ability to wage war ability to wage war ability to wage war and one of the fascinating questions and one of the fascinating questions and one of the fascinating questions sort of higher order strategic questions sort of higher order strategic questions sort of higher order strategic questions in the pacific was in the pacific was in the pacific was uh how do you allocate your resources to uh how do you allocate your resources to uh how do you allocate your resources to these two different ways of fighting these two different ways of fighting these two different ways of fighting this war often your field commanders uh this war often your field commanders uh this war often your field commanders uh really are thinking only of the next really are thinking only of the next really are thinking only of the next battle battle battle um and and uh one of the things that i um and and uh one of the things that i um and and uh one of the things that i think our our military eventually did think our our military eventually did think our our military eventually did right although it took us a while to right although it took us a while to right although it took us a while to kind of get get the hang of it kind of get get the hang of it kind of get get the hang of it uh was to devote much more effort to uh was to devote much more effort to uh was to devote much more effort to this cumulative sort of attack on the on this cumulative sort of attack on the on this cumulative sort of attack on the on the um the um the um the cornerstones of the japanese economy the cornerstones of the japanese economy the cornerstones of the japanese economy and war effort and war effort and war effort and and so that that question you know and and so that that question you know and and so that that question you know how do you allocate resources between how do you allocate resources between how do you allocate resources between those two very different wars that are those two very different wars that are those two very different wars that are happening at the same time happening at the same time happening at the same time a metaphor a metaphor a metaphor i'm a baseball fan and a metaphor i'm a baseball fan and a metaphor i'm a baseball fan and a metaphor occurred to me which is occurred to me which is occurred to me which is you know how do you evaluate a baseball you know how do you evaluate a baseball you know how do you evaluate a baseball player player player who may be a great hitter and a lousy who may be a great hitter and a lousy who may be a great hitter and a lousy fielder or another uh another um fielder or another uh another um fielder or another uh another um player who is a great fielder and only player who is a great fielder and only player who is a great fielder and only an average hitter so what is the the an average hitter so what is the the an average hitter so what is the the value of fielding versus uh hitting in value of fielding versus uh hitting in value of fielding versus uh hitting in in baseball now this is something that in baseball now this is something that in baseball now this is something that for many many years in the game of for many many years in the game of for many many years in the game of baseball baseball baseball uh the managers were not getting right uh the managers were not getting right uh the managers were not getting right because they didn't have the data because they didn't have the data because they didn't have the data analytics analytics analytics to go in and analyze that that to go in and analyze that that to go in and analyze that that problem in a systematic way using the problem in a systematic way using the problem in a systematic way using the data that baseball provides data that baseball provides data that baseball provides and all of that has changed michael

and all of that has changed michael and all of that has changed michael lewis's money ball is probably the best lewis's money ball is probably the best lewis's money ball is probably the best account of of this revolution in account of of this revolution in account of of this revolution in baseball we had a bunch of data analysts baseball we had a bunch of data analysts baseball we had a bunch of data analysts who really knew nothing about baseball who really knew nothing about baseball who really knew nothing about baseball but were very very good at analyzing but were very very good at analyzing but were very very good at analyzing data there's a metaphor there in the way data there's a metaphor there in the way data there's a metaphor there in the way that our military forces at a high level that our military forces at a high level that our military forces at a high level had to confront this question of how had to confront this question of how had to confront this question of how should we use our forces should we should we use our forces should we should we use our forces should we dedicate them to the cumulative versus dedicate them to the cumulative versus dedicate them to the cumulative versus the operational the operational the operational uh the uh the uh the sequential strategies sequential strategies sequential strategies and um and and eventually the answer was and um and and eventually the answer was and um and and eventually the answer was we should be doing a lot more on the we should be doing a lot more on the we should be doing a lot more on the cumulative side uh and that became one cumulative side uh and that became one cumulative side uh and that became one of the important factors that led to a of the important factors that led to a of the important factors that led to a much earlier defeat of japan much earlier defeat of japan much earlier defeat of japan than we had anticipated at the beginning than we had anticipated at the beginning than we had anticipated at the beginning of the war of the war of the war that's fascinating i would that the that's fascinating i would that the that's fascinating i would that the connection with moneyball and the second connection with moneyball and the second connection with moneyball and the second world war long-term overall strategy e w world war long-term overall strategy e w world war long-term overall strategy e w told your work is fantastic thank you so told your work is fantastic thank you so told your work is fantastic thank you so much for coming on the program and i much for coming on the program and i much for coming on the program and i look forward to what's next any any look forward to what's next any any look forward to what's next any any hints hints hints well i'm trying i'm trying my hand at well i'm trying i'm trying my hand at well i'm trying i'm trying my hand at fiction i'm sorry to say fiction i'm sorry to say fiction i'm sorry to say it's inevitable it's inevitable it's inevitable but i did promise my editor that i but i did promise my editor that i but i did promise my editor that i eventually would write a sequel to six eventually would write a sequel to six eventually would write a sequel to six frigates so that's on deck frigates so that's on deck frigates so that's on deck all right fantastic thank you so much all right fantastic thank you so much all right fantastic thank you so much for taking the time we really appreciate for taking the time we really appreciate for taking the time we really appreciate it thank you dan that was a ton of fun my thanks to ian that was a ton of fun my thanks to ian told for coming on the program told for coming on the program told for coming on the program i don't know when you're going to get i don't know when you're going to get i don't know when you're going to get this but his three book boxed set will this but his three book boxed set will this but his three book boxed set will either be out by the time you hear me or either be out by the time you hear me or either be out by the time you hear me or um soon afterwards it includes pacific

um soon afterwards it includes pacific um soon afterwards it includes pacific crucible the conquering tide and crucible the conquering tide and crucible the conquering tide and twilight of the gods and he has a lot of twilight of the gods and he has a lot of twilight of the gods and he has a lot of other books as well so check him out if other books as well so check him out if other books as well so check him out if you like what we do i bet you'll enjoy you like what we do i bet you'll enjoy you like what we do i bet you'll enjoy what he does as well what he does as well what he does as well just a reminder keep your eyes peeled we just a reminder keep your eyes peeled we just a reminder keep your eyes peeled we should have a an interview with an should have a an interview with an should have a an interview with an author on a very different subject in author on a very different subject in author on a very different subject in the not too distant future come out two the not too distant future come out two the not too distant future come out two hits in quick succession to make up for hits in quick succession to make up for hits in quick succession to make up for the long delay between offerings thanks the long delay between offerings thanks the long delay between offerings thanks for your patience and as always for your patience and as always for your patience and as always thank you for everything folks support us with patreon by going to support us with patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or patreon.com forward slash dan carlin or go to our donate page at dan carlin dot go to our donate page at dan carlin dot go to our donate page at dan carlin dot com forward slash dc dash donate have com forward slash dc dash donate have com forward slash dc dash donate have you ever been on a battlefield tour you ever been on a battlefield tour you ever been on a battlefield tour you know what i'm talking about right you know what i'm talking about right you know what i'm talking about right you you go to a famous battlefield and you you go to a famous battlefield and you you go to a famous battlefield and you take the tour and there's a very you take the tour and there's a very you take the tour and there's a very knowledgeable tour guide and they they knowledgeable tour guide and they they knowledgeable tour guide and they they walk you around with the rest of the walk you around with the rest of the walk you around with the rest of the tour group and they show you the tour group and they show you the tour group and they show you the battlefield from you know a soldier's battlefield from you know a soldier's battlefield from you know a soldier's eye perspective show you the salient uh eye perspective show you the salient uh eye perspective show you the salient uh historical points of interest gives you historical points of interest gives you historical points of interest gives you a sense of what was going on on the a sense of what was going on on the a sense of what was going on on the ground back during the battle i mean ground back during the battle i mean ground back during the battle i mean they're really wonderful if you get a they're really wonderful if you get a they're really wonderful if you get a chance to do that you should chance to do that you should chance to do that you should those of you who've been lucky enough to those of you who've been lucky enough to those of you who've been lucky enough to go on go on go on one of those things or maybe if you're one of those things or maybe if you're one of those things or maybe if you're really lucky two of those things will really lucky two of those things will really lucky two of those things will vouch for vouch for vouch for how helpful they are into really giving how helpful they are into really giving how helpful they are into really giving you a sense of what was going on that no you a sense of what was going on that no you a sense of what was going on that no book can really match for example book can really match for example book can really match for example well well well during the covid pandemic i was during the covid pandemic i was during the covid pandemic i was contacted by a group of people who do

contacted by a group of people who do contacted by a group of people who do this they're battlefield tour guides and this they're battlefield tour guides and this they're battlefield tour guides and military historians and they take people military historians and they take people military historians and they take people uh around places like the first world uh around places like the first world uh around places like the first world war battlefields in france right well war battlefields in france right well war battlefields in france right well when the pandemic hit though like so when the pandemic hit though like so when the pandemic hit though like so many other businesses many other businesses many other businesses they were up a creek without a paddle they were up a creek without a paddle they were up a creek without a paddle weren't they what are you gonna do if weren't they what are you gonna do if weren't they what are you gonna do if you're a battlefield tour guide and you're a battlefield tour guide and you're a battlefield tour guide and there's no tourists because of the there's no tourists because of the there's no tourists because of the pandemic pandemic pandemic so like many other businesses around the so like many other businesses around the so like many other businesses around the world they world they world they took a look at their business and took a look at their business and took a look at their business and retooled it and restructured it and retooled it and restructured it and retooled it and restructured it and reimagined it and the way they reimagined it and the way they reimagined it and the way they reimagined it reimagined it reimagined it i'm tempted to say it's better than the i'm tempted to say it's better than the i'm tempted to say it's better than the original although original although original although you know you know you know few things beat a good battlefield to few things beat a good battlefield to few things beat a good battlefield to her and they still do that on the ground her and they still do that on the ground her and they still do that on the ground live but now they do it virtually as live but now they do it virtually as live but now they do it virtually as well and it's so exciting because you well and it's so exciting because you well and it's so exciting because you know you may know i get involved with know you may know i get involved with know you may know i get involved with things like immersive experiences things like immersive experiences things like immersive experiences virtual reality and all these ways uh virtual reality and all these ways uh virtual reality and all these ways uh that i think are key that i think are key that i think are key sparks for people to get interested in sparks for people to get interested in sparks for people to get interested in history beyond the names beyond the history beyond the names beyond the history beyond the names beyond the dates appetizers right that's what i dates appetizers right that's what i dates appetizers right that's what i always say the podcast is to an always say the podcast is to an always say the podcast is to an appetizer to history well the folks over appetizer to history well the folks over appetizer to history well the folks over at battle guide virtual tours are doing at battle guide virtual tours are doing at battle guide virtual tours are doing this too they've turned their tours this too they've turned their tours this too they've turned their tours which they as i said still do live into which they as i said still do live into which they as i said still do live into virtual events virtual events virtual events combine on the ground footage with the combine on the ground footage with the combine on the ground footage with the expert you know the historian or the expert you know the historian or the expert you know the historian or the battlefield tour guide ad drone footage battlefield tour guide ad drone footage battlefield tour guide ad drone footage period footage the voices of veterans period footage the voices of veterans period footage the voices of veterans mixed in there mixed in there mixed in there archival film footage i mean a truly archival film footage i mean a truly archival film footage i mean a truly interactive and um interactive and um interactive and um fascinating sort of an affair and if you fascinating sort of an affair and if you fascinating sort of an affair and if you catch it live by the way catch it live by the way catch it live by the way you get to ask questions as though you

you get to ask questions as though you you get to ask questions as though you were actually there were actually there were actually there now if you're doing this in real life now if you're doing this in real life now if you're doing this in real life these are prohibitedly expensive things these are prohibitedly expensive things these are prohibitedly expensive things unless you live near the battlefield unless you live near the battlefield unless you live near the battlefield but because it's been turned into a but because it's been turned into a but because it's been turned into a virtual tour this becomes affordable for virtual tour this becomes affordable for virtual tour this becomes affordable for almost everybody almost everybody almost everybody and these guys are offering the tours in and these guys are offering the tours in and these guys are offering the tours in one-off one-off one-off choices i mean you can go look at their choices i mean you can go look at their choices i mean you can go look at their catalog and pick anyone you want just catalog and pick anyone you want just catalog and pick anyone you want just buy that or you could subscribe and for buy that or you could subscribe and for buy that or you could subscribe and for a lower price per episode get access to a lower price per episode get access to a lower price per episode get access to everything they have and everything everything they have and everything everything they have and everything they're continually adding they're continually adding they're continually adding i think it's really cool i think it's really cool i think it's really cool i love this as a way to sort of i love this as a way to sort of i love this as a way to sort of democratize for people all over the democratize for people all over the democratize for people all over the world this battlefield tour experience world this battlefield tour experience world this battlefield tour experience and think about it this way there are and think about it this way there are and think about it this way there are places that a lot of people get to i places that a lot of people get to i places that a lot of people get to i mean you know mean you know mean you know getting a trip to france is not all that getting a trip to france is not all that getting a trip to france is not all that unusual but there are battlefields in unusual but there are battlefields in unusual but there are battlefields in these guys archives or or soon to be these guys archives or or soon to be these guys archives or or soon to be that are in places that are very that are in places that are very that are in places that are very difficult for most people to get to so a difficult for most people to get to so a difficult for most people to get to so a virtual tour may be the best choice for virtual tour may be the best choice for virtual tour may be the best choice for everyone check it out though they're everyone check it out though they're everyone check it out though they're offering a free one if you want to see offering a free one if you want to see offering a free one if you want to see what we're talking about here they're what we're talking about here they're what we're talking about here they're confident that you'll see it and want confident that you'll see it and want confident that you'll see it and want more right so just go to more right so just go to more right so just go to battleguide.co.ukforwardslashcarlinbattleguy.co.ukforwardslashcarlin and you know add one of those and you know add one of those battlefield tours to your shopping cart battlefield tours to your shopping cart battlefield tours to your shopping cart and then you'll get the discount you'll and then you'll get the discount you'll and then you'll get the discount you'll get to see it for free and then you can get to see it for free and then you can get to see it for free and then you can decide if you like it enough to buy more decide if you like it enough to buy more decide if you like it enough to buy more but i'll tell you something this is one but i'll tell you something this is one but i'll tell you something this is one of those things where i'm comfortable of those things where i'm comfortable of those things where i'm comfortable telling you about it because i i'm this telling you about it because i i'm this telling you about it because i i'm this is the kind of thing i'm all over right is the kind of thing i'm all over right is the kind of thing i'm all over right virtual tours of battlefields uh by virtual tours of battlefields uh by virtual tours of battlefields uh by experts usually utilizing all this

experts usually utilizing all this experts usually utilizing all this technology and any cool thing that comes technology and any cool thing that comes technology and any cool thing that comes down the pike probably going to be added down the pike probably going to be added down the pike probably going to be added to these offerings too um check it out to these offerings too um check it out to these offerings too um check it out battle guide virtual tours everything battle guide virtual tours everything battle guide virtual tours everything from the napoleonic wars to the modern from the napoleonic wars to the modern from the napoleonic wars to the modern day stuff specialize in first and second day stuff specialize in first and second day stuff specialize in first and second world war history it's um world war history it's um world war history it's um well i think it's the future to be well i think it's the future to be well i think it's the future to be honest of battlefield tours and i hope honest of battlefield tours and i hope honest of battlefield tours and i hope you like what you see