EP27 More Steppe Stories

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over on Substack. over on Substack. dancarlin.substack.com. Anyone who has listened Anyone who has listened to me for any period of time already to me for any period of time already to me for any period of time already knows how deeply interested I am in the knows how deeply interested I am in the knows how deeply interested I am in the many and various peoples and tribes who many and various peoples and tribes who many and various peoples and tribes who occupy the area that's known as the occupy the area that's known as the occupy the area that's known as the Eurasian Steppe. Eurasian Steppe. Eurasian Steppe. Now, the Eurasian Steppe is a Now, the Eurasian Steppe is a Now, the Eurasian Steppe is a geographical feature, and it's not the geographical feature, and it's not the geographical feature, and it's not the same. It changes over the length and same. It changes over the length and same. It changes over the length and breadth of the distances involved, breadth of the distances involved, breadth of the distances involved, because the distances are vast, because the distances are vast, because the distances are vast, stretching all the way from the edges of stretching all the way from the edges of stretching all the way from the edges of Central Europe to the borders of China, Central Europe to the borders of China, Central Europe to the borders of China, including places like Manchuria, the including places like Manchuria, the including places like Manchuria, the northern area of India, northern area of northern area of India, northern area of northern area of India, northern area of Iran. I mean, it's it's one of these Iran. I mean, it's it's one of these Iran. I mean, it's it's one of these areas that's been a very important part areas that's been a very important part areas that's been a very important part of human history and that touches a ton of human history and that touches a ton of human history and that touches a ton of societies that were in Eurasian of societies that were in Eurasian of societies that were in Eurasian history some of the key important history some of the key important history some of the key important places. So, they've been involved in places. So, they've been involved in places. So, they've been involved in human history and important events from human history and important events from human history and important events from the get-go, basically. And if you the get-go, basically. And if you the get-go, basically. And if you look at some of the names of the peoples look at some of the names of the peoples look at some of the names of the peoples involved, the tribes and the tribal involved, the tribes and the tribal involved, the tribes and the tribal confederacies, it's obvious. I mean, to confederacies, it's obvious. I mean, to confederacies, it's obvious. I mean, to use just one, how about the Mongols or use just one, how about the Mongols or use just one, how about the Mongols or the Turks or the Huns or the Scythians?

the Turks or the Huns or the Scythians? the Turks or the Huns or the Scythians? I mean, the list just goes on and on. I mean, the list just goes on and on. I mean, the list just goes on and on. The fascinating aspects of language and The fascinating aspects of language and The fascinating aspects of language and ethnicity and all these different things ethnicity and all these different things ethnicity and all these different things that make up the peoples of the Steppe. that make up the peoples of the Steppe. that make up the peoples of the Steppe. And of course, if you're a military And of course, if you're a military And of course, if you're a military history um interested person or oriented history um interested person or oriented history um interested person or oriented person, you can't help but be fascinated person, you can't help but be fascinated person, you can't help but be fascinated with the unique weapon system of the with the unique weapon system of the with the unique weapon system of the peoples of the Steppe in recorded peoples of the Steppe in recorded peoples of the Steppe in recorded history's era, anyway. I mean, this history's era, anyway. I mean, this history's era, anyway. I mean, this mixture of a people that grow up riding mixture of a people that grow up riding mixture of a people that grow up riding horses from the time they're toddling horses from the time they're toddling horses from the time they're toddling around and using composite powerful around and using composite powerful around and using composite powerful composite bows at the same time, you composite bows at the same time, you composite bows at the same time, you create a weapon system that won't be create a weapon system that won't be create a weapon system that won't be um solvable for the people uh uh the um solvable for the people uh uh the um solvable for the people uh uh the enemies of the Steppe people until enemies of the Steppe people until enemies of the Steppe people until gunpowder becomes commonplace. If you're gunpowder becomes commonplace. If you're gunpowder becomes commonplace. If you're interested in those sorts of people and interested in those sorts of people and interested in those sorts of people and their history as I am, there are several their history as I am, there are several their history as I am, there are several new books that have come out that are new books that have come out that are new books that have come out that are just wonderful additions to your just wonderful additions to your just wonderful additions to your library. library. library. And I can't help but marvel at the And I can't help but marvel at the And I can't help but marvel at the differences between the modern-day works differences between the modern-day works differences between the modern-day works and the stuff that I grew up with, and the stuff that I grew up with, and the stuff that I grew up with, because there's so much new information.

because there's so much new information. because there's so much new information. I say new, but you know, in the last 40 I say new, but you know, in the last 40 I say new, but you know, in the last 40 years, new information out there that years, new information out there that years, new information out there that fills in all these dark areas that my fills in all these dark areas that my fills in all these dark areas that my earlier histories had. earlier histories had. earlier histories had. And they're big events. I mean, the And they're big events. I mean, the And they're big events. I mean, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the opening of China in the early '70s, the opening of China in the early '70s, the opening of China in the early '70s, the DNA testing that's been happening. All DNA testing that's been happening. All DNA testing that's been happening. All these sorts of things has broadened the these sorts of things has broadened the these sorts of things has broadened the informational informational informational storehouses that people who work in any storehouses that people who work in any storehouses that people who work in any number of different disciplines, you number of different disciplines, you number of different disciplines, you know, bioarcheology is my current know, bioarcheology is my current know, bioarcheology is my current favorite in terms of always mentioning, favorite in terms of always mentioning, favorite in terms of always mentioning, but archaeologists, anthropologists, but archaeologists, anthropologists, but archaeologists, anthropologists, linguistic people, and of course, you linguistic people, and of course, you linguistic people, and of course, you know, historians putting together works know, historians putting together works know, historians putting together works that compile all sorts of information that compile all sorts of information that compile all sorts of information from all sorts of sources that give us a from all sorts of sources that give us a from all sorts of sources that give us a much more nuanced and comprehensive view much more nuanced and comprehensive view much more nuanced and comprehensive view of all these peoples. One of the books of all these peoples. One of the books of all these peoples. One of the books that's recently come out is by a Tulane that's recently come out is by a Tulane that's recently come out is by a Tulane professor who's an expert on this professor who's an expert on this professor who's an expert on this subject named Kenneth W. Harl. It's subject named Kenneth W. Harl. It's subject named Kenneth W. Harl. It's called Empires of the Steppes, a history called Empires of the Steppes, a history called Empires of the Steppes, a history of the nomadic tribes who shaped of the nomadic tribes who shaped of the nomadic tribes who shaped civilization. civilization. civilization. He is a noted expert on the subject. The He is a noted expert on the subject. The He is a noted expert on the subject. The book is one of those that when you read book is one of those that when you read book is one of those that when you read it, even if you're interested and have it, even if you're interested and have it, even if you're interested and have read a lot about this subject, you're read a lot about this subject, you're read a lot about this subject, you're going to marvel at his ability to dredge going to marvel at his ability to dredge going to marvel at his ability to dredge up even things like personal names of up even things like personal names of up even things like personal names of some of these early leaders of some of some of these early leaders of some of some of these early leaders of some of these Steppe confederacies, things that these Steppe confederacies, things that these Steppe confederacies, things that were only considered, well, practically were only considered, well, practically were only considered, well, practically legendary when I was a kid or perhaps legendary when I was a kid or perhaps legendary when I was a kid or perhaps even fragmentary type stuff. They have even fragmentary type stuff. They have even fragmentary type stuff. They have much more information, and of course, much more information, and of course, much more information, and of course, the DNA evidence and things like isotope

the DNA evidence and things like isotope the DNA evidence and things like isotope evidence that's coming out now fleshes evidence that's coming out now fleshes evidence that's coming out now fleshes things out even further. things out even further. things out even further. We discuss this with Professor Harl We discuss this with Professor Harl We discuss this with Professor Harl recently, and the interview about recently, and the interview about recently, and the interview about Empires of the Steppes, Empires of the Steppes, Empires of the Steppes, well, happens right now. I have been reading I have been reading books about the people of the Steppes books about the people of the Steppes books about the people of the Steppes since the 1970s. since the 1970s. since the 1970s. I am absolutely overwhelmed by the I am absolutely overwhelmed by the I am absolutely overwhelmed by the comprehensiveness comprehensiveness comprehensiveness of your work. I mean, the number the of your work. I mean, the number the of your work. I mean, the number the number of books that I have that keep number of books that I have that keep number of books that I have that keep that where everything seems to be in that where everything seems to be in that where everything seems to be in darkness in most of the of the you know, darkness in most of the of the you know, darkness in most of the of the you know, like you'll have little data points from like you'll have little data points from like you'll have little data points from here and there, and yet you've got all here and there, and yet you've got all here and there, and yet you've got all this information that that sort of fills this information that that sort of fills this information that that sort of fills in the blanks from all those years. in the blanks from all those years. in the blanks from all those years. Talk to me about some of the changes in Talk to me about some of the changes in Talk to me about some of the changes in in the study and writing about the in the study and writing about the in the study and writing about the history of the people of the Steppe over history of the people of the Steppe over history of the people of the Steppe over the last three, four, five decades in the last three, four, five decades in the last three, four, five decades in terms of what what sources you've been terms of what what sources you've been terms of what what sources you've been able to consult and how you've been able to consult and how you've been able to consult and how you've been weaving this stuff into a more weaving this stuff into a more weaving this stuff into a more three-dimensional comprehensive kind of three-dimensional comprehensive kind of three-dimensional comprehensive kind of tale.

tale. tale. Well, um there's two things going on. Well, um there's two things going on. Well, um there's two things going on. One is the world of scholarship, and One is the world of scholarship, and One is the world of scholarship, and then is my own experience in teaching a then is my own experience in teaching a then is my own experience in teaching a wide range of courses. Uh first, in wide range of courses. Uh first, in wide range of courses. Uh first, in terms of the world of scholarship, terms of the world of scholarship, terms of the world of scholarship, there's been important finds made in there's been important finds made in there's been important finds made in archaeology above all. You'll have a lot archaeology above all. You'll have a lot archaeology above all. You'll have a lot of books uh concentrating on the Silk of books uh concentrating on the Silk of books uh concentrating on the Silk Road and the products that were Road and the products that were Road and the products that were exchanged. Often, these are restricted exchanged. Often, these are restricted exchanged. Often, these are restricted in time, you know, from a certain date in time, you know, from a certain date in time, you know, from a certain date to another date. You also have a lot of to another date. You also have a lot of to another date. You also have a lot of important monographic studies, important monographic studies, important monographic studies, especially on the Mongol Khans, which especially on the Mongol Khans, which especially on the Mongol Khans, which have been well studied by uh specialists have been well studied by uh specialists have been well studied by uh specialists who read the Mongol language and also uh who read the Mongol language and also uh who read the Mongol language and also uh understand the Chinese texts. And all of understand the Chinese texts. And all of understand the Chinese texts. And all of these advances have been significant, these advances have been significant, these advances have been significant, and the problem is, it's such a vast and the problem is, it's such a vast and the problem is, it's such a vast area, and and it covers such a long area, and and it covers such a long area, and and it covers such a long time, that no one can claim to be an time, that no one can claim to be an time, that no one can claim to be an expert in any one particular field. I'm expert in any one particular field. I'm expert in any one particular field. I'm very much at home on the western end of very much at home on the western end of very much at home on the western end of it, or if I'm dealing with Turks, it, or if I'm dealing with Turks, it, or if I'm dealing with Turks, because I know Turkish. On the other because I know Turkish. On the other because I know Turkish. On the other hand, there are people who stay on the hand, there are people who stay on the hand, there are people who stay on the eastern Steppes with China and the eastern Steppes with China and the eastern Steppes with China and the Mongols. And what I attempted to do was Mongols. And what I attempted to do was Mongols. And what I attempted to do was what I do in my classes, which is to what I do in my classes, which is to what I do in my classes, which is to create a sweeping narrative to create a sweeping narrative to create a sweeping narrative to understand how events unfolded. And that understand how events unfolded. And that understand how events unfolded. And that required me to bring to bear all sorts required me to bring to bear all sorts required me to bring to bear all sorts of training that I had gained uh of training that I had gained uh of training that I had gained uh especially as a classical historian uh especially as a classical historian uh especially as a classical historian uh trained in Greek and Latin and trained in Greek and Latin and trained in Greek and Latin and comparative Indo-European linguistics.

comparative Indo-European linguistics. comparative Indo-European linguistics. And um my understanding of history um And um my understanding of history um And um my understanding of history um and drawing upon the incredible work and drawing upon the incredible work and drawing upon the incredible work that's been done in the last, oh, I that's been done in the last, oh, I that's been done in the last, oh, I would say four decades, uh really our would say four decades, uh really our would say four decades, uh really our knowledge of these people advanced knowledge of these people advanced knowledge of these people advanced immensely. You think of the Tarim Basin immensely. You think of the Tarim Basin immensely. You think of the Tarim Basin mummies that were discovered and have mummies that were discovered and have mummies that were discovered and have been analyzed um that proved um been analyzed um that proved um been analyzed um that proved um apparently Indo-Europeans had occupied apparently Indo-Europeans had occupied apparently Indo-Europeans had occupied this area at a very early time, the this area at a very early time, the this area at a very early time, the Tarim Basin, which is now in western Tarim Basin, which is now in western Tarim Basin, which is now in western China. And uh putting this information China. And uh putting this information China. And uh putting this information together was a real challenge. Um together was a real challenge. Um together was a real challenge. Um I I I fortunately had the time. I was um fortunately had the time. I was um fortunately had the time. I was um consigned to my house because of the consigned to my house because of the consigned to my house because of the pandemic, and I really wrote this book pandemic, and I really wrote this book pandemic, and I really wrote this book on um a sabbatical leave um where um on um a sabbatical leave um where um on um a sabbatical leave um where um COVID-19 was raging across the United COVID-19 was raging across the United COVID-19 was raging across the United States, and I kept myself occupied States, and I kept myself occupied States, and I kept myself occupied putting all of my notes and thoughts putting all of my notes and thoughts putting all of my notes and thoughts together, which I've been looking at for together, which I've been looking at for together, which I've been looking at for a long time. a long time. a long time. And And And um so, that's that's what's come um so, that's that's what's come um so, that's that's what's come together. All of this together. All of this together. All of this very, very significant research done by very, very significant research done by very, very significant research done by different scholars. Uh I think of the different scholars. Uh I think of the different scholars. Uh I think of the work done on the Kushans. Um work done on the Kushans. Um work done on the Kushans. Um There was a very important inscription There was a very important inscription There was a very important inscription discovered in Afghanistan that revealed discovered in Afghanistan that revealed discovered in Afghanistan that revealed the descent of the Kushan kings and the descent of the Kushan kings and the descent of the Kushan kings and clarified uh the genealogy. Uh there's clarified uh the genealogy. Uh there's clarified uh the genealogy. Uh there's been studies on uh ancient coins that been studies on uh ancient coins that been studies on uh ancient coins that have also clarified who issued these uh have also clarified who issued these uh have also clarified who issued these uh coins and how are they connected with

coins and how are they connected with coins and how are they connected with Steppe peoples. Steppe peoples. Steppe peoples. So, it's it's a variety of sources, and So, it's it's a variety of sources, and So, it's it's a variety of sources, and they keep changing and adding, and I'm they keep changing and adding, and I'm they keep changing and adding, and I'm sure in the future, there will be new sure in the future, there will be new sure in the future, there will be new discoveries. discoveries. discoveries. Some may vitiate some of my points, but Some may vitiate some of my points, but Some may vitiate some of my points, but I think the overall understanding is I think the overall understanding is I think the overall understanding is sound. And that uh the work at least sound. And that uh the work at least sound. And that uh the work at least conveys the sweep of the great events conveys the sweep of the great events conveys the sweep of the great events that have occurred on the Steppes since that have occurred on the Steppes since that have occurred on the Steppes since earliest times, when uh the first people earliest times, when uh the first people earliest times, when uh the first people domesticated and herded animals, uh domesticated and herded animals, uh domesticated and herded animals, uh domesticated the horse, and developed domesticated the horse, and developed domesticated the horse, and developed this mobile way of life. this mobile way of life. this mobile way of life. Okay, so, this is a your book covers Okay, so, this is a your book covers Okay, so, this is a your book covers basically from prehistory to almost the basically from prehistory to almost the basically from prehistory to almost the Renaissance. And we have an audience Renaissance. And we have an audience Renaissance. And we have an audience that will span the entire spectrum of that will span the entire spectrum of that will span the entire spectrum of people who know nothing about this people who know nothing about this people who know nothing about this subject to people who are pretty well subject to people who are pretty well subject to people who are pretty well versed about at least some of it. So, versed about at least some of it. So, versed about at least some of it. So, maybe we start at the beginning at sort maybe we start at the beginning at sort maybe we start at the beginning at sort of a touchstone point that we can all of a touchstone point that we can all of a touchstone point that we can all relate to. Geography and environment relate to. Geography and environment relate to. Geography and environment here, right? We have a part of the world here, right? We have a part of the world here, right? We have a part of the world in Eurasia that touches China on one in Eurasia that touches China on one in Eurasia that touches China on one side, uh the north of India, the north side, uh the north of India, the north side, uh the north of India, the north of Persia, the the east of what we would of Persia, the the east of what we would of Persia, the the east of what we would consider to be the the the Central consider to be the the the Central consider to be the the the Central European areas. Talk to me a little bit European areas. Talk to me a little bit European areas. Talk to me a little bit about this about this about this because I always think about the because I always think about the because I always think about the geography and the environment as geography and the environment as geography and the environment as creating the conditions for the rise of creating the conditions for the rise of creating the conditions for the rise of this type of lifestyle. And I'm sure this type of lifestyle. And I'm sure this type of lifestyle. And I'm sure it's an idiotic thing to say, but I mean it's an idiotic thing to say, but I mean it's an idiotic thing to say, but I mean I can see almost similarities to the I can see almost similarities to the I can see almost similarities to the American Great Plains sometimes. And you American Great Plains sometimes. And you American Great Plains sometimes. And you see the same sorts of sort of the the

see the same sorts of sort of the the see the same sorts of sort of the the the the way that they live in in certain the the way that they live in in certain the the way that they live in in certain respects being similar. Talk to me a respects being similar. Talk to me a respects being similar. Talk to me a little bit about I mean if you're if little bit about I mean if you're if little bit about I mean if you're if you're writing a book called The Empire you're writing a book called The Empire you're writing a book called The Empire of the Steppes and you're talking to of the Steppes and you're talking to of the Steppes and you're talking to people who don't know anything about people who don't know anything about people who don't know anything about this, explain to us what the steppes this, explain to us what the steppes this, explain to us what the steppes are. Well, actually you made a good are. Well, actually you made a good are. Well, actually you made a good analogy about the Great Plains Indians, analogy about the Great Plains Indians, analogy about the Great Plains Indians, how when horses escaped from the Spanish how when horses escaped from the Spanish how when horses escaped from the Spanish sometime in the 1680s, I believe, and sometime in the 1680s, I believe, and sometime in the 1680s, I believe, and you had these mustangs get out on the you had these mustangs get out on the you had these mustangs get out on the grasslands of the Great Prairies. These grasslands of the Great Prairies. These grasslands of the Great Prairies. These horses could live on the grasslands, and horses could live on the grasslands, and horses could live on the grasslands, and then Indians learned to domesticate them then Indians learned to domesticate them then Indians learned to domesticate them first as a food source and then to ride first as a food source and then to ride first as a food source and then to ride them, and it completely changed the them, and it completely changed the them, and it completely changed the culture and political landscape of the culture and political landscape of the culture and political landscape of the Great Prairie, which Great Prairie, which Great Prairie, which initially many European-Americans simply initially many European-Americans simply initially many European-Americans simply thought was the Great American Desert. thought was the Great American Desert. thought was the Great American Desert. And this happened at an early date on And this happened at an early date on And this happened at an early date on the western end of that Eurasian Steppe the western end of that Eurasian Steppe the western end of that Eurasian Steppe you just noted, which really ends in you just noted, which really ends in you just noted, which really ends in Hungary on the what's called the Hungary on the what's called the Hungary on the what's called the Pannonian Plain, stretches across Pannonian Plain, stretches across Pannonian Plain, stretches across southern Russia and Ukraine, and southern Russia and Ukraine, and southern Russia and Ukraine, and stretches all the way to Mongolia and to stretches all the way to Mongolia and to stretches all the way to Mongolia and to the the the foothills of Manchuria.

foothills of Manchuria. foothills of Manchuria. Now, it varies in different parts. I Now, it varies in different parts. I Now, it varies in different parts. I divided it for convenience into three divided it for convenience into three divided it for convenience into three major zones. Uh one would be the western major zones. Uh one would be the western major zones. Uh one would be the western steppes steppes steppes usually the Volga River or the Ural usually the Volga River or the Ural usually the Volga River or the Ural River is taken as the boundary. The River is taken as the boundary. The River is taken as the boundary. The other are the Great Central Steppes, other are the Great Central Steppes, other are the Great Central Steppes, more or less equivalent to Kazakhstan more or less equivalent to Kazakhstan more or less equivalent to Kazakhstan today, which is an immense area. It's today, which is an immense area. It's today, which is an immense area. It's It's almost as large as Western Europe. It's almost as large as Western Europe. It's almost as large as Western Europe. And then the Eastern Steppes, which are And then the Eastern Steppes, which are And then the Eastern Steppes, which are better known to many of your listeners, better known to many of your listeners, better known to many of your listeners, uh which would be the Mongolian uh which would be the Mongolian uh which would be the Mongolian grasslands, uh bounded in the south by grasslands, uh bounded in the south by grasslands, uh bounded in the south by the Gobi Desert and beyond that the the Gobi Desert and beyond that the the Gobi Desert and beyond that the great rivers of China. great rivers of China. great rivers of China. On all of this land it was sometime On all of this land it was sometime On all of this land it was sometime um um um between, let's say between, let's say between, let's say 4,000 and 3,000 BC 4,000 and 3,000 BC 4,000 and 3,000 BC that people dwelling on the steppes that people dwelling on the steppes that people dwelling on the steppes learned that they could exploit the learned that they could exploit the learned that they could exploit the grasslands to sustain great herds of grasslands to sustain great herds of grasslands to sustain great herds of animals, sheep, goat, cattle. animals, sheep, goat, cattle. animals, sheep, goat, cattle. Uh the domestication of the horse proved Uh the domestication of the horse proved Uh the domestication of the horse proved decisive because that became the beast decisive because that became the beast decisive because that became the beast of burden. of burden. of burden. It could be a source of winter meat if It could be a source of winter meat if It could be a source of winter meat if necessary, and it also became the prime necessary, and it also became the prime necessary, and it also became the prime animal used in war.

animal used in war. animal used in war. And that developed first on the western And that developed first on the western And that developed first on the western steppes among Indo-European speakers. steppes among Indo-European speakers. steppes among Indo-European speakers. These would be people speaking a These would be people speaking a These would be people speaking a language that's usually abbreviated PIE language that's usually abbreviated PIE language that's usually abbreviated PIE by linguists, meaning by linguists, meaning by linguists, meaning Proto-Indo-European. Proto-Indo-European. Proto-Indo-European. And we really don't know the language. And we really don't know the language. And we really don't know the language. It was never written down. It's been It was never written down. It's been It was never written down. It's been reconstructed from the daughter reconstructed from the daughter reconstructed from the daughter languages based on predictable rules of languages based on predictable rules of languages based on predictable rules of grammar, pronunciation, euphony. grammar, pronunciation, euphony. grammar, pronunciation, euphony. And this is the mother tongue of many of And this is the mother tongue of many of And this is the mother tongue of many of the languages from Ireland to India. And the languages from Ireland to India. And the languages from Ireland to India. And those the spreading of that these those the spreading of that these those the spreading of that these languages is a result of the success languages is a result of the success languages is a result of the success of these nomadic peoples on the western of these nomadic peoples on the western of these nomadic peoples on the western steppes and harnessing grass as a way of steppes and harnessing grass as a way of steppes and harnessing grass as a way of sustaining themselves. Now, there always sustaining themselves. Now, there always sustaining themselves. Now, there always was scattered agriculture in some of the was scattered agriculture in some of the was scattered agriculture in some of the river valleys. We know that from reports river valleys. We know that from reports river valleys. We know that from reports by Herodotus talking about the by Herodotus talking about the by Herodotus talking about the Scythians. Scythians. Scythians. The Chinese make reference to some The Chinese make reference to some The Chinese make reference to some farming going on also on the steppes. farming going on also on the steppes. farming going on also on the steppes. But primarily it was the products of But primarily it was the products of But primarily it was the products of their animals. It would be skins, furs, their animals. It would be skins, furs, their animals. It would be skins, furs, dairy products, meat, which was most dairy products, meat, which was most dairy products, meat, which was most valuable and which sustained them and valuable and which sustained them and valuable and which sustained them and also provided the goods to exchange with also provided the goods to exchange with also provided the goods to exchange with sedentary civilizations on the edge of sedentary civilizations on the edge of sedentary civilizations on the edge of those steppes.

those steppes. those steppes. It's a vast region. It's a vast region. It's a vast region. And it's bound to the north by the And it's bound to the north by the And it's bound to the north by the taiga, the Siberian taiga, the Siberian taiga, the Siberian forest zones, beyond the the tundra, the forest zones, beyond the the tundra, the forest zones, beyond the the tundra, the frozen area. To the south you'll frozen area. To the south you'll frozen area. To the south you'll encounter various deserts. You think of encounter various deserts. You think of encounter various deserts. You think of the Kyzylkum and the Karakum the Kyzylkum and the Karakum the Kyzylkum and the Karakum um in in the Central Steppes or the Gobi um in in the Central Steppes or the Gobi um in in the Central Steppes or the Gobi on the Eastern Steppes. And so the on the Eastern Steppes. And so the on the Eastern Steppes. And so the people of the steppes lived in this people of the steppes lived in this people of the steppes lived in this narrow band. narrow band. narrow band. It's a land subject to incredible It's a land subject to incredible It's a land subject to incredible extremes of temperature. extremes of temperature. extremes of temperature. And papal envoy mentioned that the only And papal envoy mentioned that the only And papal envoy mentioned that the only rest he could get in the shade as he was rest he could get in the shade as he was rest he could get in the shade as he was traveling to the Mongol court in the traveling to the Mongol court in the traveling to the Mongol court in the 13th century was 13th century was 13th century was to sleep in the midday underneath his to sleep in the midday underneath his to sleep in the midday underneath his cart, his ox-drawn cart. And at first he cart, his ox-drawn cart. And at first he cart, his ox-drawn cart. And at first he cursed having opted for a cart over cursed having opted for a cart over cursed having opted for a cart over riding and then came to appreciate that riding and then came to appreciate that riding and then came to appreciate that cart when he realized there's no shade cart when he realized there's no shade cart when he realized there's no shade in the high summer and the temperature in the high summer and the temperature in the high summer and the temperature can get absolutely brutal. And then in can get absolutely brutal. And then in can get absolutely brutal. And then in the winter you have the same extremes the winter you have the same extremes the winter you have the same extremes and we have reports of how the nomads and we have reports of how the nomads and we have reports of how the nomads were able to survive in winter both from were able to survive in winter both from were able to survive in winter both from recent reports of people who've lived recent reports of people who've lived recent reports of people who've lived among them as well as the report of Ibn among them as well as the report of Ibn among them as well as the report of Ibn Fadlan, very well-known Fadlan, very well-known Fadlan, very well-known for his account of the Vikings on the for his account of the Vikings on the for his account of the Vikings on the Volga, but he was really sent here to Volga, but he was really sent here to Volga, but he was really sent here to parley with a nomadic ruler of the Volga parley with a nomadic ruler of the Volga parley with a nomadic ruler of the Volga Bulgars who had recently converted to Bulgars who had recently converted to Bulgars who had recently converted to Islam. And on his way he is hosted in

Islam. And on his way he is hosted in Islam. And on his way he is hosted in the winter by these Oghuz Turks who are the winter by these Oghuz Turks who are the winter by these Oghuz Turks who are huddled together in their mobile home huddled together in their mobile home huddled together in their mobile home and tents, and he remarks about the and tents, and he remarks about the and tents, and he remarks about the hospitality, the the months of really hospitality, the the months of really hospitality, the the months of really just surviving the brutal cold, and um just surviving the brutal cold, and um just surviving the brutal cold, and um and how hospitality and one's word in and how hospitality and one's word in and how hospitality and one's word in transactions is all important among transactions is all important among transactions is all important among these groups in order for them to these groups in order for them to these groups in order for them to survive. So it breeds a population that survive. So it breeds a population that survive. So it breeds a population that can endure great extremes. No weaklings can endure great extremes. No weaklings can endure great extremes. No weaklings survive in this environment. All adult survive in this environment. All adult survive in this environment. All adult males who are free are both hunters and males who are free are both hunters and males who are free are both hunters and warriors. warriors. warriors. And once they've domesticated the horse And once they've domesticated the horse And once they've domesticated the horse uh starting from about 2,000 BC on uh starting from about 2,000 BC on uh starting from about 2,000 BC on they innovate first with the light they innovate first with the light they innovate first with the light chariot chariot chariot and then later in the early Iron Age, and then later in the early Iron Age, and then later in the early Iron Age, let's say about 1,000 years later, the let's say about 1,000 years later, the let's say about 1,000 years later, the mounted warrior. And in both instances, mounted warrior. And in both instances, mounted warrior. And in both instances, whether they're using chariots or whether they're using chariots or whether they're using chariots or they're mounted on horses, they have they're mounted on horses, they have they're mounted on horses, they have this composite bow that makes them this composite bow that makes them this composite bow that makes them absolutely formidable foes. So the absolutely formidable foes. So the absolutely formidable foes. So the landscape, the great distances, the the landscape, the great distances, the the landscape, the great distances, the the harsh climate, the constant need to look harsh climate, the constant need to look harsh climate, the constant need to look for forage, grasslands for their for forage, grasslands for their for forage, grasslands for their animals, water animals, water animals, water and the need to trade with sedentary and the need to trade with sedentary and the need to trade with sedentary civilizations to obtain goods that they civilizations to obtain goods that they civilizations to obtain goods that they themselves cannot produce, themselves cannot produce, themselves cannot produce, um keeps them on the move.

um keeps them on the move. um keeps them on the move. And it makes them extremely adaptable. And it makes them extremely adaptable. And it makes them extremely adaptable. And one aspect I hope the book conveys And one aspect I hope the book conveys And one aspect I hope the book conveys is that these people are extremely able is that these people are extremely able is that these people are extremely able and clever and learn rapidly what is and clever and learn rapidly what is and clever and learn rapidly what is necessary to survive. necessary to survive. necessary to survive. And it's really wrong to simply think of And it's really wrong to simply think of And it's really wrong to simply think of them as barbarians who don't live in them as barbarians who don't live in them as barbarians who don't live in cities and don't write, cities and don't write, cities and don't write, uh great books and uh uh great books and uh uh great books and uh and don't eat bread as the and don't eat bread as the and don't eat bread as the as the ancient people in the Near East as the ancient people in the Near East as the ancient people in the Near East would say. Uh that that they're just would say. Uh that that they're just would say. Uh that that they're just wild men. That's a misrepresentation. wild men. That's a misrepresentation. wild men. That's a misrepresentation. Well, okay. So it's worth pointing out Well, okay. So it's worth pointing out Well, okay. So it's worth pointing out if people want to look at where cavalry if people want to look at where cavalry if people want to look at where cavalry begins and then spreads outward from begins and then spreads outward from begins and then spreads outward from like a drop in a water Mhm. you drop a like a drop in a water Mhm. you drop a like a drop in a water Mhm. you drop a pebble in a water and you see the the pebble in a water and you see the the pebble in a water and you see the the surrounding ripples. I mean you can see surrounding ripples. I mean you can see surrounding ripples. I mean you can see the spread of cavalry as you said the spread of cavalry as you said the spread of cavalry as you said starting with cavalry that's hooked up starting with cavalry that's hooked up starting with cavalry that's hooked up to chariots and carts, and then to chariots and carts, and then to chariots and carts, and then eventually you get riders, and you can eventually you get riders, and you can eventually you get riders, and you can see it spread to places like Assyria. I see it spread to places like Assyria. I see it spread to places like Assyria. I mean you can see China go from having uh mean you can see China go from having uh mean you can see China go from having uh uh foot nomadic peoples in the western uh foot nomadic peoples in the western uh foot nomadic peoples in the western areas, what the Rong and the Di and areas, what the Rong and the Di and areas, what the Rong and the Di and people like that, all of a sudden become people like that, all of a sudden become people like that, all of a sudden become mounted and it's an entirely new ball mounted and it's an entirely new ball mounted and it's an entirely new ball game for them security-wise once that game for them security-wise once that game for them security-wise once that happens. So let's talk about this happens. So let's talk about this happens. So let's talk about this because as a as a fan of military because as a as a fan of military because as a as a fan of military history, I'm always intrigued by the history, I'm always intrigued by the history, I'm always intrigued by the fact that once you combine the horse and fact that once you combine the horse and fact that once you combine the horse and the composite bow that you just the composite bow that you just the composite bow that you just mentioned, you have a weapon system uh

mentioned, you have a weapon system uh mentioned, you have a weapon system uh especially when you when you hook it to especially when you when you hook it to especially when you when you hook it to people who grow up with it as opposed to people who grow up with it as opposed to people who grow up with it as opposed to taking some Byzantine peasant and taking some Byzantine peasant and taking some Byzantine peasant and training them as a mounted archer, it's training them as a mounted archer, it's training them as a mounted archer, it's very different when you take a a Hunnic very different when you take a a Hunnic very different when you take a a Hunnic kid who's been on a horse since 3 years kid who's been on a horse since 3 years kid who's been on a horse since 3 years old shooting at rats and mice as a old shooting at rats and mice as a old shooting at rats and mice as a little child. Um little child. Um little child. Um once you combine that weapon system, you once you combine that weapon system, you once you combine that weapon system, you have something that isn't going to be have something that isn't going to be have something that isn't going to be made obsolete until almost the made obsolete until almost the made obsolete until almost the Napoleonic era. That's hard to get your Napoleonic era. That's hard to get your Napoleonic era. That's hard to get your mind around when weapon systems go mind around when weapon systems go mind around when weapon systems go obsolete as quickly as they do today. obsolete as quickly as they do today. obsolete as quickly as they do today. Talk to us a little bit about I mean Talk to us a little bit about I mean Talk to us a little bit about I mean even Comanche warriors are adopting the even Comanche warriors are adopting the even Comanche warriors are adopting the same system. What makes that such a same system. What makes that such a same system. What makes that such a difficult to deal with such a formidable difficult to deal with such a formidable difficult to deal with such a formidable weapon system, the bow and the horse? weapon system, the bow and the horse? weapon system, the bow and the horse? Well, first the horse gives mobility. Well, first the horse gives mobility. Well, first the horse gives mobility. And most of these as as you should also And most of these as as you should also And most of these as as you should also note uh most of these warriors have note uh most of these warriors have note uh most of these warriors have several mounts and they can cover great several mounts and they can cover great several mounts and they can cover great distances rapidly. The Mongol army distances rapidly. The Mongol army distances rapidly. The Mongol army can ride three times faster than any of can ride three times faster than any of can ride three times faster than any of its opponents with components of its opponents with components of its opponents with components of infantry and and cavalry. And that is infantry and and cavalry. And that is infantry and and cavalry. And that is they can switch from horse to horse, they can switch from horse to horse, they can switch from horse to horse, they have fresh mounts always with them.

they have fresh mounts always with them. they have fresh mounts always with them. Uh these horses are also extremely Uh these horses are also extremely Uh these horses are also extremely sturdy. They can forage on the steppes sturdy. They can forage on the steppes sturdy. They can forage on the steppes and even forage under the snow. And so and even forage under the snow. And so and even forage under the snow. And so when the Mongols invade Europe in 1242, when the Mongols invade Europe in 1242, when the Mongols invade Europe in 1242, I I mean, Batu catches the Europeans by I I mean, Batu catches the Europeans by I I mean, Batu catches the Europeans by surprise. They're still in winter surprise. They're still in winter surprise. They're still in winter quarters, more or less. It isn't quite quarters, more or less. It isn't quite quarters, more or less. It isn't quite yet spring, and yet the Mongols can move yet spring, and yet the Mongols can move yet spring, and yet the Mongols can move around rapidly. So, strategically, they around rapidly. So, strategically, they around rapidly. So, strategically, they have great mobility, and this strikes have great mobility, and this strikes have great mobility, and this strikes terror in the hearts of their foes. terror in the hearts of their foes. terror in the hearts of their foes. They're never able to get an accurate They're never able to get an accurate They're never able to get an accurate count of how many there are. Usually, count of how many there are. Usually, count of how many there are. Usually, these forces are much smaller than these forces are much smaller than these forces are much smaller than literary sources report. You know, the literary sources report. You know, the literary sources report. You know, the literary sources will talk of hundreds literary sources will talk of hundreds literary sources will talk of hundreds of thousands. You're probably dealing of thousands. You're probably dealing of thousands. You're probably dealing with an army of 30,000, maybe 50,000, with an army of 30,000, maybe 50,000, with an army of 30,000, maybe 50,000, which is an enormous army. And the full which is an enormous army. And the full which is an enormous army. And the full Mongol levy in the time of Genghis Khan, Mongol levy in the time of Genghis Khan, Mongol levy in the time of Genghis Khan, at his death in 1227, was probably at his death in 1227, was probably at his death in 1227, was probably somewhere around 130 to 150,000, of whom somewhere around 130 to 150,000, of whom somewhere around 130 to 150,000, of whom many of them were Turks rather than many of them were Turks rather than many of them were Turks rather than actually Mongols. actually Mongols. actually Mongols. Tactically, this weapon is ideal for Tactically, this weapon is ideal for Tactically, this weapon is ideal for attacking mixed formations of infantry attacking mixed formations of infantry attacking mixed formations of infantry and cavalry that depend on a tactic of and cavalry that depend on a tactic of and cavalry that depend on a tactic of bringing the enemy to the to close bringing the enemy to the to close bringing the enemy to the to close combat, where you can use edge weapons combat, where you can use edge weapons combat, where you can use edge weapons to overcome them, whether it's the Roman to overcome them, whether it's the Roman to overcome them, whether it's the Roman gladius, whether it's a pike, whether gladius, whether it's a pike, whether gladius, whether it's a pike, whether it's a halberd in the Middle Ages. The it's a halberd in the Middle Ages. The it's a halberd in the Middle Ages. The shock action is what's supposed to shock action is what's supposed to shock action is what's supposed to decide the battle. But the nomads don't decide the battle. But the nomads don't decide the battle. But the nomads don't play fair. They will attack these play fair. They will attack these play fair. They will attack these formations, raining arrows into these formations, raining arrows into these formations, raining arrows into these forces, usually injuring the horses of

forces, usually injuring the horses of forces, usually injuring the horses of their foe, maddening their the infantry their foe, maddening their the infantry their foe, maddening their the infantry to get so angry that they'll break ranks to get so angry that they'll break ranks to get so angry that they'll break ranks and try to pursue. And what they do is and try to pursue. And what they do is and try to pursue. And what they do is refuse to close in close quarters and refuse to close in close quarters and refuse to close in close quarters and draw their foes out in a ill-advised draw their foes out in a ill-advised draw their foes out in a ill-advised counterattack. And as they scatter, counterattack. And as they scatter, counterattack. And as they scatter, they'll then turn upon them and ambush they'll then turn upon them and ambush they'll then turn upon them and ambush them. Or them. Or them. Or they have the great It's called the they have the great It's called the they have the great It's called the Scythian shot in uh 90 Um Scythian shot in uh 90 Um Scythian shot in uh 90 Um Sorry, phone call. Sorry, phone call. Sorry, phone call. A Scythian shot in Greek sources, in A Scythian shot in Greek sources, in A Scythian shot in Greek sources, in which the warrior can turn behind with which the warrior can turn behind with which the warrior can turn behind with his composite bow and still shoot at a his composite bow and still shoot at a his composite bow and still shoot at a pursuing foe. pursuing foe. pursuing foe. Battle after battle is lost as a result Battle after battle is lost as a result Battle after battle is lost as a result of the of the of the use of these tactics by the armies of use of these tactics by the armies of use of these tactics by the armies of sedentary civilizations. The most famous sedentary civilizations. The most famous sedentary civilizations. The most famous one is the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, one is the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, one is the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, where the Seljuk Turks managed to break where the Seljuk Turks managed to break where the Seljuk Turks managed to break the discipline of the Byzantine army, the discipline of the Byzantine army, the discipline of the Byzantine army, and it simply panics, and it then and it simply panics, and it then and it simply panics, and it then becomes a massacre, where they attack becomes a massacre, where they attack becomes a massacre, where they attack and and and destroy the scattered and panic panic destroy the scattered and panic panic destroy the scattered and panic panic forces. So, to defeat such an army forces. So, to defeat such an army forces. So, to defeat such an army requires immense coordination between requires immense coordination between requires immense coordination between cavalry and infantry. We have a number cavalry and infantry. We have a number cavalry and infantry. We have a number of manuals that talk about that. The of manuals that talk about that. The of manuals that talk about that. The earliest one in the West is Arrian's earliest one in the West is Arrian's earliest one in the West is Arrian's Battle Tactics Against the Battle Tactics Against the Battle Tactics Against the Alans, which is a Sarmatian tribe that Alans, which is a Sarmatian tribe that Alans, which is a Sarmatian tribe that burst into Asia Minor around 135 AD, and burst into Asia Minor around 135 AD, and burst into Asia Minor around 135 AD, and he has had direct experience in

he has had direct experience in he has had direct experience in positioning his infantry, his cavalry positioning his infantry, his cavalry positioning his infantry, his cavalry supports, and maintaining discipline. supports, and maintaining discipline. supports, and maintaining discipline. The same tactics were advised by a The same tactics were advised by a The same tactics were advised by a Byzantine manual of the 6th century AD, Byzantine manual of the 6th century AD, Byzantine manual of the 6th century AD, and almost a contemporary manual in and almost a contemporary manual in and almost a contemporary manual in China. China. China. Usually, your best option, and the Tang Usually, your best option, and the Tang Usually, your best option, and the Tang emperors, the early Tang emperors of emperors, the early Tang emperors of emperors, the early Tang emperors of China, understood this, is to hire China, understood this, is to hire China, understood this, is to hire nomadic warriors to do the fighting for nomadic warriors to do the fighting for nomadic warriors to do the fighting for you. you. you. And at least have some kind of control And at least have some kind of control And at least have some kind of control on some of the inner barbarians, as the on some of the inner barbarians, as the on some of the inner barbarians, as the Chinese would call them. Those would be Chinese would call them. Those would be Chinese would call them. Those would be the tribes dwelling along the Great Wall the tribes dwelling along the Great Wall the tribes dwelling along the Great Wall in your immediate vicinity. They've in your immediate vicinity. They've in your immediate vicinity. They've become accustomed to Chinese ways to become accustomed to Chinese ways to become accustomed to Chinese ways to some extent, but they still retain the some extent, but they still retain the some extent, but they still retain the traditions of the steppes. And you hire traditions of the steppes. And you hire traditions of the steppes. And you hire them as your warriors, because them as your warriors, because them as your warriors, because what what better option do you have? As what what better option do you have? As what what better option do you have? As you mentioned at the start of the you mentioned at the start of the you mentioned at the start of the that to ride horses and to use a bow that to ride horses and to use a bow that to ride horses and to use a bow this effectively is a lifetime this effectively is a lifetime this effectively is a lifetime experience. And experience. And experience. And you just don't recruit peasants and arm you just don't recruit peasants and arm you just don't recruit peasants and arm them with bows and try to force them to them with bows and try to force them to them with bows and try to force them to ride horses and and get the kind of ride horses and and get the kind of ride horses and and get the kind of results you want. That's that's just a results you want. That's that's just a results you want. That's that's just a fact. China's also hamstrung by the fact fact. China's also hamstrung by the fact fact. China's also hamstrung by the fact that they could never breed effective that they could never breed effective that they could never breed effective horses in China proper because of the horses in China proper because of the horses in China proper because of the soil. It it doesn't have the minerals soil. It it doesn't have the minerals soil. It it doesn't have the minerals necessary for strong bows. And so, even necessary for strong bows. And so, even necessary for strong bows. And so, even if they try to mount Chinese warriors, if they try to mount Chinese warriors, if they try to mount Chinese warriors, they're they're dependent on importing they're they're dependent on importing they're they're dependent on importing horses from the nomadic tribes.

horses from the nomadic tribes. horses from the nomadic tribes. And that's a big point in all of these And that's a big point in all of these And that's a big point in all of these treaties, where silk is paid out to the treaties, where silk is paid out to the treaties, where silk is paid out to the most prominent nomadic confederacy, most prominent nomadic confederacy, most prominent nomadic confederacy, whether he's called a khan or or Chanyu, whether he's called a khan or or Chanyu, whether he's called a khan or or Chanyu, whatever his title. And in return, the whatever his title. And in return, the whatever his title. And in return, the Chinese emperor expects thousands of Chinese emperor expects thousands of Chinese emperor expects thousands of horses for his army. horses for his army. horses for his army. I'm fascinated with both the physics and I'm fascinated with both the physics and I'm fascinated with both the physics and the human morale side of battle, because the human morale side of battle, because the human morale side of battle, because when you talked about this the Scythian when you talked about this the Scythian when you talked about this the Scythian shot or the Parthian shot, and the fact shot or the Parthian shot, and the fact shot or the Parthian shot, and the fact and the the feigned flight, as as it's and the the feigned flight, as as it's and the the feigned flight, as as it's called for the audience out there, the called for the audience out there, the called for the audience out there, the the idea that you can pretend to be the idea that you can pretend to be the idea that you can pretend to be fleeing, and some of the enemy may fleeing, and some of the enemy may fleeing, and some of the enemy may pursue you, and that breaks up their pursue you, and that breaks up their pursue you, and that breaks up their formation, making them vulnerable. I'm formation, making them vulnerable. I'm formation, making them vulnerable. I'm always amazed how many people should always amazed how many people should always amazed how many people should know better, whether it's the Byzantine know better, whether it's the Byzantine know better, whether it's the Byzantine manuals, the Chinese manuals, or even manuals, the Chinese manuals, or even manuals, the Chinese manuals, or even when one steppe tribe is fighting when one steppe tribe is fighting when one steppe tribe is fighting another, and they're very aware that of another, and they're very aware that of another, and they're very aware that of the feigned flight tactic, and yet the feigned flight tactic, and yet the feigned flight tactic, and yet somehow they can be encouraged to pursue anyway. I mean, I remember to pursue anyway. I mean, I remember reading about the mangudai that the reading about the mangudai that the reading about the mangudai that the Mongols had, which were were supposed to Mongols had, which were were supposed to Mongols had, which were were supposed to encourage something, and they were I encourage something, and they were I encourage something, and they were I remember somebody, a teacher, telling me remember somebody, a teacher, telling me remember somebody, a teacher, telling me that they were they were even recruiting that they were they were even recruiting that they were they were even recruiting people that might even be good actors, people that might even be good actors, people that might even be good actors, right? To really be able to to to to right? To really be able to to to to right? To really be able to to to to say, "No, no, no, this isn't a a trick.

say, "No, no, no, this isn't a a trick. say, "No, no, no, this isn't a a trick. We really are fleeing. We really are We really are fleeing. We really are We really are fleeing. We really are scared of you." Um so, there's a physics scared of you." Um so, there's a physics scared of you." Um so, there's a physics or a morale thing involved, where even or a morale thing involved, where even or a morale thing involved, where even when you know better, you're you get when you know better, you're you get when you know better, you're you get suckered into some of these things suckered into some of these things suckered into some of these things sometimes. I'm also interested, and sometimes. I'm also interested, and sometimes. I'm also interested, and maybe you can explain this to me. maybe you can explain this to me. maybe you can explain this to me. I remember reading the early accounts of I remember reading the early accounts of I remember reading the early accounts of the Huns' appearance in Europe, and the the Huns' appearance in Europe, and the the Huns' appearance in Europe, and the Mongols describing them as so Mongols describing them as so Mongols describing them as so ungodly ugly, alien-like, and all these ungodly ugly, alien-like, and all these ungodly ugly, alien-like, and all these kinds of things. And I remember in the kinds of things. And I remember in the kinds of things. And I remember in the 1970s, as a kid, thinking that this is 1970s, as a kid, thinking that this is 1970s, as a kid, thinking that this is just a Roman different ethnicity that just a Roman different ethnicity that just a Roman different ethnicity that they're not used to. But now we know, they're not used to. But now we know, they're not used to. But now we know, and the skulls have been found, and you and the skulls have been found, and you and the skulls have been found, and you mention it in your book, about things mention it in your book, about things mention it in your book, about things like the head binding and all those like the head binding and all those like the head binding and all those sorts of things that would have created sorts of things that would have created sorts of things that would have created something that to a Roman may have something that to a Roman may have something that to a Roman may have looked, well, to somebody today, go look looked, well, to somebody today, go look looked, well, to somebody today, go look at the skulls, may have looked extremely at the skulls, may have looked extremely at the skulls, may have looked extremely unnatural. Can you talk a little about unnatural. Can you talk a little about unnatural. Can you talk a little about what these people may have looked like, what these people may have looked like, what these people may have looked like, and why? and why? and why? Well, Well, Well, you're you're drawing on the account of you're you're drawing on the account of you're you're drawing on the account of Ammianus Marcellinus, who's the first Ammianus Marcellinus, who's the first Ammianus Marcellinus, who's the first Roman to report about the Huns. Roman to report about the Huns. Roman to report about the Huns. And they would have arrived on the And they would have arrived on the And they would have arrived on the eastern edge of the western steppes eastern edge of the western steppes eastern edge of the western steppes about 370 AD.

about 370 AD. about 370 AD. And they came crashing into the Goths, And they came crashing into the Goths, And they came crashing into the Goths, who are Germanic people living who are Germanic people living who are Germanic people living on the Russian steppes, the South on the Russian steppes, the South on the Russian steppes, the South Russian steppes. And the Romans had had Russian steppes. And the Romans had had Russian steppes. And the Romans had had contact with the Goths for over two contact with the Goths for over two contact with the Goths for over two centuries. In fact, they had treaties centuries. In fact, they had treaties centuries. In fact, they had treaties with the Goths. with the Goths. with the Goths. Many of them were recruited into Many of them were recruited into Many of them were recruited into patrolling this area for the benefit of patrolling this area for the benefit of patrolling this area for the benefit of Rome and received subsidies. Rome and received subsidies. Rome and received subsidies. Ammianus claims that they're not even Ammianus claims that they're not even Ammianus claims that they're not even humans. They look like stumps. They are humans. They look like stumps. They are humans. They look like stumps. They are comparatively short. They have the comparatively short. They have the comparatively short. They have the deformed head and scars. deformed head and scars. deformed head and scars. They They They uh ride around on their horses. They're uh ride around on their horses. They're uh ride around on their horses. They're noted for taking head taking, which is a noted for taking head taking, which is a noted for taking head taking, which is a common phenomenon on the steppes, either common phenomenon on the steppes, either common phenomenon on the steppes, either taking heads or scalps. Same is reported taking heads or scalps. Same is reported taking heads or scalps. Same is reported of the Scythians. of the Scythians. of the Scythians. And these people would have been of And these people would have been of And these people would have been of Eastern Asian origin. They would not be Eastern Asian origin. They would not be Eastern Asian origin. They would not be Europoid, as you'd say. And they spoke Europoid, as you'd say. And they spoke Europoid, as you'd say. And they spoke what was probably an agglutinative what was probably an agglutinative what was probably an agglutinative language. We're not exactly sure how to language. We're not exactly sure how to language. We're not exactly sure how to classify because the words we have in classify because the words we have in classify because the words we have in the Hun language are mostly proper the Hun language are mostly proper the Hun language are mostly proper names. names. names. And they very quickly subjected a wide And they very quickly subjected a wide And they very quickly subjected a wide variety of people, so there's lots of variety of people, so there's lots of variety of people, so there's lots of Iranian and Germanic names and Iranian and Germanic names and Iranian and Germanic names and objects that are associated with them.

objects that are associated with them. objects that are associated with them. But they were seen as unusually foreign. But they were seen as unusually foreign. But they were seen as unusually foreign. And unusually ferocious. And unusually ferocious. And unusually ferocious. They made war violently. They were able They made war violently. They were able They made war violently. They were able to defeat the Goths and drive many of to defeat the Goths and drive many of to defeat the Goths and drive many of them into the Roman Empire. And it's the them into the Roman Empire. And it's the them into the Roman Empire. And it's the Hun migration into Central Europe that Hun migration into Central Europe that Hun migration into Central Europe that ultimately drives many of the Germanic ultimately drives many of the Germanic ultimately drives many of the Germanic tribes into the Roman Empire. tribes into the Roman Empire. tribes into the Roman Empire. And then, as a result of their And then, as a result of their And then, as a result of their depredations and attacks on the Eastern depredations and attacks on the Eastern depredations and attacks on the Eastern Empire and their great invasion of Empire and their great invasion of Empire and their great invasion of Western Europe in 451 and 452, they Western Europe in 451 and 452, they Western Europe in 451 and 452, they tipped the balance tipped the balance tipped the balance to the Germanic tribes who have settled to the Germanic tribes who have settled to the Germanic tribes who have settled within the Roman Empire as the future of within the Roman Empire as the future of within the Roman Empire as the future of Europe. And they play a very decisive Europe. And they play a very decisive Europe. And they play a very decisive role that way. But in terms of battle, role that way. But in terms of battle, role that way. But in terms of battle, you can go back and read John Keegan's you can go back and read John Keegan's you can go back and read John Keegan's book on Face of Battle, which really was book on Face of Battle, which really was book on Face of Battle, which really was a groundbreaking work in military a groundbreaking work in military a groundbreaking work in military history. I'm sure many of your uh history. I'm sure many of your uh history. I'm sure many of your uh listeners are familiar with that work. listeners are familiar with that work. listeners are familiar with that work. And one of the irresistible impulses is And one of the irresistible impulses is And one of the irresistible impulses is to see the enemy turn his back and flee.

to see the enemy turn his back and flee. to see the enemy turn his back and flee. That is generally when the greatest That is generally when the greatest That is generally when the greatest number of casualties are suffered by the number of casualties are suffered by the number of casualties are suffered by the defeated, that they are pursued. defeated, that they are pursued. defeated, that they are pursued. And the nomads um And the nomads um And the nomads um do all these scattered attacks, and then do all these scattered attacks, and then do all these scattered attacks, and then show their backs and flee. And it's very show their backs and flee. And it's very show their backs and flee. And it's very hard to keep soldiers in line when they hard to keep soldiers in line when they hard to keep soldiers in line when they see that. Even well-trained soldiers see that. Even well-trained soldiers see that. Even well-trained soldiers have the tendency to probably now's our have the tendency to probably now's our have the tendency to probably now's our chance to get back at them. You know, chance to get back at them. You know, chance to get back at them. You know, they've been shooting these arrows at us they've been shooting these arrows at us they've been shooting these arrows at us all day. It hasn't been a good army day. all day. It hasn't been a good army day. all day. It hasn't been a good army day. I've been forced to stay in the same I've been forced to stay in the same I've been forced to stay in the same place in hot sun. Now they're fleeing, place in hot sun. Now they're fleeing, place in hot sun. Now they're fleeing, well, let's go get those guys. And that well, let's go get those guys. And that well, let's go get those guys. And that would especially be true of the would especially be true of the would especially be true of the supporting cavalry that would probably supporting cavalry that would probably supporting cavalry that would probably go after them in gallop, and they're go after them in gallop, and they're go after them in gallop, and they're usually more heavily armored, not as usually more heavily armored, not as usually more heavily armored, not as nimble as the nimble as the nimble as the nomadic warriors, and they start to nomadic warriors, and they start to nomadic warriors, and they start to break up in formation, and this is just break up in formation, and this is just break up in formation, and this is just the ideal time to carry out an ambush. the ideal time to carry out an ambush. the ideal time to carry out an ambush. Uh you'll have some of your fellow Uh you'll have some of your fellow Uh you'll have some of your fellow warriors waiting in a concealed position warriors waiting in a concealed position warriors waiting in a concealed position to take them in flank. The ones fleeing to take them in flank. The ones fleeing to take them in flank. The ones fleeing will suddenly turn around and and start will suddenly turn around and and start will suddenly turn around and and start launching their arrows, and some of them launching their arrows, and some of them launching their arrows, and some of them will close for uh hand-to-hand combat as will close for uh hand-to-hand combat as will close for uh hand-to-hand combat as um scattered battles, you know, um scattered battles, you know, um scattered battles, you know, individual combat individual combat individual combat uh in which these warriors excel.

uh in which these warriors excel. uh in which these warriors excel. So, maintaining that discipline is very So, maintaining that discipline is very So, maintaining that discipline is very difficult. And and and it comes through difficult. And and and it comes through difficult. And and and it comes through in, you know, manual after manual in in, you know, manual after manual in in, you know, manual after manual in dealing with these foes. dealing with these foes. dealing with these foes. And as late as, say, oh gosh, uh and And as late as, say, oh gosh, uh and And as late as, say, oh gosh, uh and you're right, um Napoleonic Wars, I'm you're right, um Napoleonic Wars, I'm you're right, um Napoleonic Wars, I'm thinking of um thinking of um thinking of um the wars between the armies of the Holy the wars between the armies of the Holy the wars between the armies of the Holy Roman Emperor, um the Habsburg Emperor, Roman Emperor, um the Habsburg Emperor, Roman Emperor, um the Habsburg Emperor, and the Ottomans. The Ottomans and the Ottomans. The Ottomans and the Ottomans. The Ottomans deploying many what we would call deploying many what we would call deploying many what we would call Tartars, Tatars, from South Russia as Tartars, Tatars, from South Russia as Tartars, Tatars, from South Russia as allies, allies, allies, and um Prince Eugene of Savoy, you know, and um Prince Eugene of Savoy, you know, and um Prince Eugene of Savoy, you know, keep strict formations. Don't break up keep strict formations. Don't break up keep strict formations. Don't break up when they they pull this stunt. And and when they they pull this stunt. And and when they they pull this stunt. And and that's that's that's that's the psychology of the heat of that's the psychology of the heat of that's the psychology of the heat of battle, you know, battle, you know, battle, you know, checking your your impulses from checking your your impulses from checking your your impulses from throwing away a victory throwing away a victory throwing away a victory or at least a strategic draw. or at least a strategic draw. or at least a strategic draw. And generally, that's usually the best And generally, that's usually the best And generally, that's usually the best an army of a sedentary civilization can an army of a sedentary civilization can an army of a sedentary civilization can really achieve. All these people would really achieve. All these people would really achieve. All these people would be a strategic draw. be a strategic draw. be a strategic draw. And the best way to to deal with them, And the best way to to deal with them, And the best way to to deal with them, at least on the Eastern Steppes, would at least on the Eastern Steppes, would at least on the Eastern Steppes, would be the Chinese would wage uh winter be the Chinese would wage uh winter be the Chinese would wage uh winter campaigns and try to catch the campsites campaigns and try to catch the campsites campaigns and try to catch the campsites in their in in their winter grounds, and in their in in their winter grounds, and in their in in their winter grounds, and um um um capture horses, destroy horses, destroy capture horses, destroy horses, destroy capture horses, destroy horses, destroy uh uh uh uh the um mobile homes, uh the um mobile homes, uh the um mobile homes, the the yurt, and and take many the the yurt, and and take many the the yurt, and and take many prisoners. And if you you draw an prisoners. And if you you draw an prisoners. And if you you draw an analogy to the Plains um analogy to the Plains um analogy to the Plains um Indians, Indians, Indians, you know, you you think of Sheridan's

you know, you you think of Sheridan's you know, you you think of Sheridan's army, you know, winter campaigns. And um army, you know, winter campaigns. And um army, you know, winter campaigns. And um I would I was a sucker for the Westerns I would I was a sucker for the Westerns I would I was a sucker for the Westerns growing up, you know, I was born in growing up, you know, I was born in growing up, you know, I was born in 1951. I'm a big fan of um I'm a big fan of um uh The Searchers, and there's that uh The Searchers, and there's that uh The Searchers, and there's that incident where, you know, John Wayne incident where, you know, John Wayne incident where, you know, John Wayne sees the US Cavalry sees the US Cavalry sees the US Cavalry just what That was just what I was just what That was just what I was just what That was just what I was thinking of. This is Custer at Custer at thinking of. This is Custer at Custer at thinking of. This is Custer at Custer at the Little Bighorn. Yeah. attack the the Little Bighorn. Yeah. attack the the Little Bighorn. Yeah. attack the Comanche camp in the winter, um you Comanche camp in the winter, um you Comanche camp in the winter, um you know, following the strategy that um know, following the strategy that um know, following the strategy that um Sheridan and uh Sherman had framed. It's Sheridan and uh Sherman had framed. It's Sheridan and uh Sherman had framed. It's it's not too different. it's not too different. it's not too different. Well, now, let's talk a little bit about Well, now, let's talk a little bit about Well, now, let's talk a little bit about ethnicity, because to me that's one of ethnicity, because to me that's one of ethnicity, because to me that's one of the more surprising things about the the more surprising things about the the more surprising things about the entire steppe, and also the the the entire steppe, and also the the the entire steppe, and also the the the makeup of some of these tribes. I makeup of some of these tribes. I makeup of some of these tribes. I remember you mentioned the Tarim remember you mentioned the Tarim remember you mentioned the Tarim mummies, but I remember reading very mummies, but I remember reading very mummies, but I remember reading very early accounts of of the Turks, and we early accounts of of the Turks, and we early accounts of of the Turks, and we think of the Turks as as looking like think of the Turks as as looking like think of the Turks as as looking like the people in Turkey today, although the people in Turkey today, although the people in Turkey today, although that's a wide variety of people, that's a wide variety of people, that's a wide variety of people, obviously, too. But the early accounts obviously, too. But the early accounts obviously, too. But the early accounts would have green-eyed Turks with red would have green-eyed Turks with red would have green-eyed Turks with red hair. I mean, stuff that just doesn't hair. I mean, stuff that just doesn't hair. I mean, stuff that just doesn't jibe with our our our stereotypical jibe with our our our stereotypical jibe with our our our stereotypical views of today. Uh you you talked about views of today. Uh you you talked about views of today. Uh you you talked about the Yuezhi and tribes on the western the Yuezhi and tribes on the western the Yuezhi and tribes on the western area of China looking and speaking much area of China looking and speaking much area of China looking and speaking much more Indo-European languages. Um Genghis more Indo-European languages. Um Genghis more Indo-European languages. Um Genghis Khan maybe red hair and gray eyes. Talk Khan maybe red hair and gray eyes. Talk Khan maybe red hair and gray eyes. Talk to me a little about the fact that, you to me a little about the fact that, you to me a little about the fact that, you know, you really and and the fact that know, you really and and the fact that know, you really and and the fact that these tribes would accept defeated these tribes would accept defeated these tribes would accept defeated enemies into their midst, and you get enemies into their midst, and you get enemies into their midst, and you get It's a It's an ethnic estuary, isn't it?

It's a It's an ethnic estuary, isn't it? It's a It's an ethnic estuary, isn't it? Yeah. There's um Yeah. There's um Yeah. There's um the big test ultimately becomes the big test ultimately becomes the big test ultimately becomes language, you know, how do you express language, you know, how do you express language, you know, how do you express yourself? Language is an interpretation yourself? Language is an interpretation yourself? Language is an interpretation of the world, and every language of the world, and every language of the world, and every language represents a slightly different represents a slightly different represents a slightly different interpretation. And that's why I always interpretation. And that's why I always interpretation. And that's why I always urge my students to learn more urge my students to learn more urge my students to learn more languages, you know. languages, you know. languages, you know. Your sense of humor changes, the way you Your sense of humor changes, the way you Your sense of humor changes, the way you name objects, and my wife is Turkish, name objects, and my wife is Turkish, name objects, and my wife is Turkish, and believe me, a bilingual marriage is and believe me, a bilingual marriage is and believe me, a bilingual marriage is is one that is constantly changing, is one that is constantly changing, is one that is constantly changing, constantly learning. And so, um you you constantly learning. And so, um you you constantly learning. And so, um you you speak of the Turks today in Republic of speak of the Turks today in Republic of speak of the Turks today in Republic of Turkey, or Türkiye as they want to be Turkey, or Türkiye as they want to be Turkey, or Türkiye as they want to be called now, which is the Turkish name called now, which is the Turkish name called now, which is the Turkish name for the land, for the land, for the land, and you're looking at a minority of and you're looking at a minority of and you're looking at a minority of nomadic peoples who had embraced Islam, nomadic peoples who had embraced Islam, nomadic peoples who had embraced Islam, who arrived in who arrived in who arrived in uh the 11th and 12th centuries, and uh the 11th and 12th centuries, and uh the 11th and 12th centuries, and assimilated a vast majority. Perhaps assimilated a vast majority. Perhaps assimilated a vast majority. Perhaps only 6% of the DNA of the modern Turkish only 6% of the DNA of the modern Turkish only 6% of the DNA of the modern Turkish population actually can trace itself population actually can trace itself population actually can trace itself back to the Steppes. The rest is that of back to the Steppes. The rest is that of back to the Steppes. The rest is that of the people who were originally there, as the people who were originally there, as the people who were originally there, as well as Balkan, Russian, uh Middle well as Balkan, Russian, uh Middle well as Balkan, Russian, uh Middle Eastern, you know, all sorts of people Eastern, you know, all sorts of people Eastern, you know, all sorts of people who had moved into that area under the who had moved into that area under the who had moved into that area under the Ottoman Empire. And the same is true on Ottoman Empire. And the same is true on Ottoman Empire. And the same is true on the Steppes, and that is the nomads the Steppes, and that is the nomads the Steppes, and that is the nomads would learn languages as necessary. The would learn languages as necessary. The would learn languages as necessary. The rapid expansion of the Turkish speakers rapid expansion of the Turkish speakers rapid expansion of the Turkish speakers in the early Middle Ages, which really in the early Middle Ages, which really in the early Middle Ages, which really to me marks the beginning of the Middle to me marks the beginning of the Middle to me marks the beginning of the Middle Ages on the Steppes, the the expansion Ages on the Steppes, the the expansion Ages on the Steppes, the the expansion by Bumin and the Gokturks um starting in by Bumin and the Gokturks um starting in by Bumin and the Gokturks um starting in 550 550 550 uh

uh uh across the Central and Eastern Steppes across the Central and Eastern Steppes across the Central and Eastern Steppes uh when they overthrew their overlords, uh when they overthrew their overlords, uh when they overthrew their overlords, many of the people on the Steppes there many of the people on the Steppes there many of the people on the Steppes there would have been speaking Iranian, would have been speaking Iranian, would have been speaking Iranian, Tokharian, different types of Tokharian, different types of Tokharian, different types of Indo-European languages, but they had Indo-European languages, but they had Indo-European languages, but they had had long contact with Turkish tribes had long contact with Turkish tribes had long contact with Turkish tribes because there aren't any neat boundary because there aren't any neat boundary because there aren't any neat boundary lines that you have in a modern state. lines that you have in a modern state. lines that you have in a modern state. They move to make use of the land, and a They move to make use of the land, and a They move to make use of the land, and a tribe will be in a certain area, another tribe will be in a certain area, another tribe will be in a certain area, another tribe shows up which speaks a different tribe shows up which speaks a different tribe shows up which speaks a different language, and either they fight each language, and either they fight each language, and either they fight each other or they end up coming to some sort other or they end up coming to some sort other or they end up coming to some sort of agreement in which one tribe has of agreement in which one tribe has of agreement in which one tribe has grazing rights and and uh lets it to use grazing rights and and uh lets it to use grazing rights and and uh lets it to use the same water source. There's the same water source. There's the same water source. There's celebrations and invariably in marital celebrations and invariably in marital celebrations and invariably in marital ties are are are cemented. So, these ties are are are cemented. So, these ties are are are cemented. So, these people are constantly interacting with people are constantly interacting with people are constantly interacting with each other and changing. each other and changing. each other and changing. And what happens is many of the people And what happens is many of the people And what happens is many of the people who spoke Iranian languages end up who spoke Iranian languages end up who spoke Iranian languages end up speaking Turkish. That's why when you go speaking Turkish. That's why when you go speaking Turkish. That's why when you go out to Western China, um in um out to Western China, um in um out to Western China, um in um what the locals want to call Uyghurstan, what the locals want to call Uyghurstan, what the locals want to call Uyghurstan, where the Uyghurs are today, you'll find where the Uyghurs are today, you'll find where the Uyghurs are today, you'll find many Uyghurs many Uyghurs many Uyghurs uh with fair hair and green eyes, and uh with fair hair and green eyes, and uh with fair hair and green eyes, and they're probably descended ultimately they're probably descended ultimately they're probably descended ultimately from Tokharian ancestors. Others will from Tokharian ancestors. Others will from Tokharian ancestors. Others will show traits that they came from the show traits that they came from the show traits that they came from the Middle East. Others will show traits Middle East. Others will show traits Middle East. Others will show traits that they came from East Asia, but they that they came from East Asia, but they that they came from East Asia, but they all speak Uyghur Turkish, itself a all speak Uyghur Turkish, itself a all speak Uyghur Turkish, itself a mixture of several other languages, but mixture of several other languages, but mixture of several other languages, but that's what identifies them.

that's what identifies them. that's what identifies them. And then, as these tribes embrace uh one And then, as these tribes embrace uh one And then, as these tribes embrace uh one of the monotheistic creeds, such as of the monotheistic creeds, such as of the monotheistic creeds, such as Islam or they embrace Buddhism, that Islam or they embrace Buddhism, that Islam or they embrace Buddhism, that becomes another way of defining who they becomes another way of defining who they becomes another way of defining who they are, their religious views, and how they are, their religious views, and how they are, their religious views, and how they reconcile that religion with their reconcile that religion with their reconcile that religion with their traditional nomadic uh beliefs and traditional nomadic uh beliefs and traditional nomadic uh beliefs and spirits and shamans. spirits and shamans. spirits and shamans. So, So, So, that that that that's going on constantly, and the that's going on constantly, and the that's going on constantly, and the notion of um all the Huns looking like notion of um all the Huns looking like notion of um all the Huns looking like what Ammianus said, or some of these what Ammianus said, or some of these what Ammianus said, or some of these depictions of the Huns from the 19th depictions of the Huns from the 19th depictions of the Huns from the 19th century where they're they're magnified century where they're they're magnified century where they're they're magnified as the yellow peril from the East, you as the yellow peril from the East, you as the yellow peril from the East, you know, know, know, destroying Roman civilization, you know, destroying Roman civilization, you know, destroying Roman civilization, you know, these are overdrawn. The Hun armies of these are overdrawn. The Hun armies of these are overdrawn. The Hun armies of Attila comprised many Iranian speakers Attila comprised many Iranian speakers Attila comprised many Iranian speakers and Germanic speakers, and Germanic speakers, and Germanic speakers, and Attila himself is remembered as a and Attila himself is remembered as a and Attila himself is remembered as a great king in Norse and Germanic legend. great king in Norse and Germanic legend. great king in Norse and Germanic legend. He lives on as one of the great lords He lives on as one of the great lords He lives on as one of the great lords who had a court of great warriors.

who had a court of great warriors. who had a court of great warriors. And in the German tradition, if you ever And in the German tradition, if you ever And in the German tradition, if you ever read the German epic the Nibelungenlied, read the German epic the Nibelungenlied, read the German epic the Nibelungenlied, he's he's depicted quite favorably, he's he's depicted quite favorably, he's he's depicted quite favorably, actually. So, actually. So, actually. So, you are correct. There's there's a you are correct. There's there's a you are correct. There's there's a constant constant constant movement and intermixture mixture going movement and intermixture mixture going movement and intermixture mixture going on. on. on. And likewise with the sedentary And likewise with the sedentary And likewise with the sedentary civilizations, you know, um any great civilizations, you know, um any great civilizations, you know, um any great lord, like uh Modu Chanyu, who in the lord, like uh Modu Chanyu, who in the lord, like uh Modu Chanyu, who in the 2nd century BC established the 2nd century BC established the 2nd century BC established the confederacy of the Xiongnu, will confederacy of the Xiongnu, will confederacy of the Xiongnu, will negotiate with the Han Emperor in order negotiate with the Han Emperor in order negotiate with the Han Emperor in order to get Chinese brides for himself and to get Chinese brides for himself and to get Chinese brides for himself and for his leading supporters, for his leading supporters, for his leading supporters, because that elevates him in the status because that elevates him in the status because that elevates him in the status of his of his of his subjects. subjects. subjects. And And And that that's just that that's just that that's just a given. They're they're prone to a given. They're they're prone to a given. They're they're prone to outmarrying like that. outmarrying like that. outmarrying like that. One of the things I found very valuable One of the things I found very valuable One of the things I found very valuable in the book was you being able to put to in the book was you being able to put to in the book was you being able to put to rest a bunch of the questions that we've rest a bunch of the questions that we've rest a bunch of the questions that we've often had studying the steppe people often had studying the steppe people often had studying the steppe people forever. For example, you just mentioned forever. For example, you just mentioned forever. For example, you just mentioned both Attila and the Xiongnu, and the both Attila and the Xiongnu, and the both Attila and the Xiongnu, and the idea of whether or not the Huns and the idea of whether or not the Huns and the idea of whether or not the Huns and the Xiongnu were the same people.

Xiongnu were the same people. Xiongnu were the same people. In your book, you took the firm belief In your book, you took the firm belief In your book, you took the firm belief that that new information has shown that that that new information has shown that that that new information has shown that they were not. Am I correct in saying they were not. Am I correct in saying they were not. Am I correct in saying that? that? that? Yeah. I think at most, they're familiar Yeah. I think at most, they're familiar Yeah. I think at most, they're familiar with the term with the term with the term um um um Xiongnu is apparently how the Chinese Xiongnu is apparently how the Chinese Xiongnu is apparently how the Chinese pronounce the Xiongnu, and um pronounce the Xiongnu, and um pronounce the Xiongnu, and um and Chinese uh you know, scholars, and Chinese uh you know, scholars, and Chinese uh you know, scholars, Sinicists Sinologists, I guess you would Sinicists Sinologists, I guess you would Sinicists Sinologists, I guess you would call them, historians of China. call them, historians of China. call them, historians of China. It was a fearful term that was adopted It was a fearful term that was adopted It was a fearful term that was adopted by these people. At most, they were a by these people. At most, they were a by these people. At most, they were a vassal tribe uh or a distant subject of vassal tribe uh or a distant subject of vassal tribe uh or a distant subject of the Xiongnu, but there's no direct the Xiongnu, but there's no direct the Xiongnu, but there's no direct connection, and the review of the connection, and the review of the connection, and the review of the archaeological evidence in the period of archaeological evidence in the period of archaeological evidence in the period of Attila, um that is, the Hun hegemony in Attila, um that is, the Hun hegemony in Attila, um that is, the Hun hegemony in Europe, of jewelry, pottery styles, and Europe, of jewelry, pottery styles, and Europe, of jewelry, pottery styles, and all, really shows no connections to the all, really shows no connections to the all, really shows no connections to the earlier material you'd find in East earlier material you'd find in East earlier material you'd find in East Asia. Now, there are arguments that have Asia. Now, there are arguments that have Asia. Now, there are arguments that have been made that the Huns were heirs to been made that the Huns were heirs to been made that the Huns were heirs to some kind of steppe imperial some kind of steppe imperial some kind of steppe imperial administration. administration. administration. That's made by um one scholar in That's made by um one scholar in That's made by um one scholar in particular, but I just don't see it.

particular, but I just don't see it. particular, but I just don't see it. What I do see What I do see What I do see is that the Huns in Europe are familiar is that the Huns in Europe are familiar is that the Huns in Europe are familiar with exchanges with sedentary with exchanges with sedentary with exchanges with sedentary civilizations, and they're just quick civilizations, and they're just quick civilizations, and they're just quick studies. The Xiongnu learned that studies. The Xiongnu learned that studies. The Xiongnu learned that writing was very valuable. Well, so did writing was very valuable. Well, so did writing was very valuable. Well, so did the Huns as soon as they came into the Huns as soon as they came into the Huns as soon as they came into contact with the Roman Empire. Attila contact with the Roman Empire. Attila contact with the Roman Empire. Attila had uh both Greek and Roman secretaries had uh both Greek and Roman secretaries had uh both Greek and Roman secretaries who could draft letters and treaties and who could draft letters and treaties and who could draft letters and treaties and any kind of document he would want. And any kind of document he would want. And any kind of document he would want. And we don't know what languages Attila we don't know what languages Attila we don't know what languages Attila spoke besides the Hun language. He may spoke besides the Hun language. He may spoke besides the Hun language. He may well have known a fair amount of Latin well have known a fair amount of Latin well have known a fair amount of Latin and some kind of East Germanic dialect and some kind of East Germanic dialect and some kind of East Germanic dialect to talk to some of his leading vassals. to talk to some of his leading vassals. to talk to some of his leading vassals. One of his secretaries, Orestes, ends up One of his secretaries, Orestes, ends up One of his secretaries, Orestes, ends up going back into imperial service after going back into imperial service after going back into imperial service after Attila dies and puts his son on the Attila dies and puts his son on the Attila dies and puts his son on the throne as the last Western emperor, throne as the last Western emperor, throne as the last Western emperor, Romulus Augustulus. Romulus Augustulus. Romulus Augustulus. When the Hun empire fragmented, Orestes When the Hun empire fragmented, Orestes When the Hun empire fragmented, Orestes with a whole bunch of probably with a whole bunch of probably with a whole bunch of probably unemployed unemployed unemployed warriors of Attila offers himself to the warriors of Attila offers himself to the warriors of Attila offers himself to the Western court and eventually ends up Western court and eventually ends up Western court and eventually ends up putting his son on the throne. And it putting his son on the throne. And it putting his son on the throne. And it goes to show how easily people from goes to show how easily people from goes to show how easily people from sedentary civilizations can move into sedentary civilizations can move into sedentary civilizations can move into the nomadic world and then move back.

the nomadic world and then move back. the nomadic world and then move back. There's a constant movement that way. There's a constant movement that way. There's a constant movement that way. Genghis Khan won the support of many Genghis Khan won the support of many Genghis Khan won the support of many people who are known as Khitans in North people who are known as Khitans in North people who are known as Khitans in North China who had ruled there and hated the China who had ruled there and hated the China who had ruled there and hated the then ruling North Chinese dynasty and then ruling North Chinese dynasty and then ruling North Chinese dynasty and they went over to the Mongols. Kublai they went over to the Mongols. Kublai they went over to the Mongols. Kublai Khan literally built a Chinese army and Khan literally built a Chinese army and Khan literally built a Chinese army and navy to conquer the Song. navy to conquer the Song. navy to conquer the Song. And you find this constant cooperation And you find this constant cooperation And you find this constant cooperation that the nomads are able to engage that the nomads are able to engage that the nomads are able to engage different peoples who have skills from different peoples who have skills from different peoples who have skills from the sedentary civilizations. Attila has the sedentary civilizations. Attila has the sedentary civilizations. Attila has it. You're interested in military it. You're interested in military it. You're interested in military history. Attila can take cities with history. Attila can take cities with history. Attila can take cities with engineers. These are clearly Romans in engineers. These are clearly Romans in engineers. These are clearly Romans in the service of Attila. the service of Attila. the service of Attila. Genghis Khan had his Chinese engineering Genghis Khan had his Chinese engineering Genghis Khan had his Chinese engineering core which Kublai Khan expanded by core which Kublai Khan expanded by core which Kublai Khan expanded by adding Iranians and Arabs compliments of adding Iranians and Arabs compliments of adding Iranians and Arabs compliments of his brother, Hulagu, who sent some of his brother, Hulagu, who sent some of his brother, Hulagu, who sent some of the best men to him. So, there is a the best men to him. So, there is a the best men to him. So, there is a constant need for them to innovate and constant need for them to innovate and constant need for them to innovate and especially in the art of war, they're especially in the art of war, they're especially in the art of war, they're extremely receptive to innovations. Let extremely receptive to innovations. Let extremely receptive to innovations. Let me Let me Let me change gears here. So, me Let me Let me change gears here. So, me Let me Let me change gears here. So, there's a wonderful line that I've there's a wonderful line that I've there's a wonderful line that I've always liked that history is just one always liked that history is just one always liked that history is just one damn thing after another. And if you damn thing after another. And if you damn thing after another. And if you look at the entire scope of your book look at the entire scope of your book look at the entire scope of your book and the subject matter from from early and the subject matter from from early and the subject matter from from early times to to the Renaissance, if you if times to to the Renaissance, if you if times to to the Renaissance, if you if you wanted to, you could almost classify you wanted to, you could almost classify you wanted to, you could almost classify that as one that as one that as one eruption of steppe people after another eruption of steppe people after another eruption of steppe people after another and I'm kind of interested in the idea

and I'm kind of interested in the idea and I'm kind of interested in the idea that there always seems to be another that there always seems to be another that there always seems to be another more ferocious, more dangerous, more more ferocious, more dangerous, more more ferocious, more dangerous, more tough, more energetic, more resourceful tough, more energetic, more resourceful tough, more energetic, more resourceful tribe always waiting in the wings, you tribe always waiting in the wings, you tribe always waiting in the wings, you know, the Magyars get to deal with the know, the Magyars get to deal with the know, the Magyars get to deal with the Pechenegs. I mean, there's always Pechenegs. I mean, there's always Pechenegs. I mean, there's always somebody on the So, so can you explain somebody on the So, so can you explain somebody on the So, so can you explain the the maybe the the the the rational the the maybe the the the the rational the the maybe the the the the rational is not the right word, but but what's is not the right word, but but what's is not the right word, but but what's going on there that there's always got going on there that there's always got going on there that there's always got to be another tribe looking to supplant to be another tribe looking to supplant to be another tribe looking to supplant the one that's just settled down and and the one that's just settled down and and the one that's just settled down and and in to use the old Chinese word for it in to use the old Chinese word for it in to use the old Chinese word for it and just been cooked, you know, in terms and just been cooked, you know, in terms and just been cooked, you know, in terms of a civilizational sense. of a civilizational sense. of a civilizational sense. Well, Well, Well, what happens is those that move off the what happens is those that move off the what happens is those that move off the steppes into the settled zones, in many steppes into the settled zones, in many steppes into the settled zones, in many instances they become assimilated. instances they become assimilated. instances they become assimilated. And they'll embrace the dominant And they'll embrace the dominant And they'll embrace the dominant culture, although sometimes they will culture, although sometimes they will culture, although sometimes they will retain their language as the Turks do. retain their language as the Turks do. retain their language as the Turks do. And as the Hungarians do. You know, And as the Hungarians do. You know, And as the Hungarians do. You know, Hungarians return, you know, retain a language that's not related to retain a language that's not related to the other European languages. It's a the other European languages. It's a the other European languages. It's a Ugrian language that is remotely related Ugrian language that is remotely related Ugrian language that is remotely related to Turkish and Mongolian.

to Turkish and Mongolian. to Turkish and Mongolian. And new people fill in behind. And you And new people fill in behind. And you And new people fill in behind. And you have to realize that it doesn't take have to realize that it doesn't take have to realize that it doesn't take much for these much for these much for these these groups to become overcrowded and these groups to become overcrowded and these groups to become overcrowded and for the resources to become scarce. for the resources to become scarce. for the resources to become scarce. Just, you know, a couple of bad summers Just, you know, a couple of bad summers Just, you know, a couple of bad summers and you are desperate to move on and and you are desperate to move on and and you are desperate to move on and many of these migrations take the form many of these migrations take the form many of these migrations take the form of individual groups, small groups of of individual groups, small groups of of individual groups, small groups of 20, 50 moving on their own, looking for 20, 50 moving on their own, looking for 20, 50 moving on their own, looking for water, looking for grass and then water, looking for grass and then water, looking for grass and then sending news back to their relatives. sending news back to their relatives. sending news back to their relatives. Oh, come west or go east or go Oh, come west or go east or go Oh, come west or go east or go southeast, you'll find better pastures. southeast, you'll find better pastures. southeast, you'll find better pastures. And what happens is they'll run into the And what happens is they'll run into the And what happens is they'll run into the occupants of the area and some kind of occupants of the area and some kind of occupants of the area and some kind of fighting is going to ensue. And that fighting is going to ensue. And that fighting is going to ensue. And that means they're constantly means they're constantly means they're constantly struggling struggling struggling around themselves to make sure they have around themselves to make sure they have around themselves to make sure they have sufficient water and grass for their sufficient water and grass for their sufficient water and grass for their animals, they have access animals, they have access animals, they have access to trade with the sedentary to trade with the sedentary to trade with the sedentary civilizations and the competition is civilizations and the competition is civilizations and the competition is fierce.

fierce. fierce. And if you don't win a battle, the And if you don't win a battle, the And if you don't win a battle, the consequences are pretty severe and in consequences are pretty severe and in consequences are pretty severe and in many instances they'll they'll massacre many instances they'll they'll massacre many instances they'll they'll massacre the adult males. They might keep some of the adult males. They might keep some of the adult males. They might keep some of the specialist, you know, good craftsmen the specialist, you know, good craftsmen the specialist, you know, good craftsmen and some of the women, and some of the women, and some of the women, but the defeated really get killed but the defeated really get killed but the defeated really get killed because the resources are so limited. because the resources are so limited. because the resources are so limited. And And And so there's a constant movement because so there's a constant movement because so there's a constant movement because no no sedentary civilization can control no no sedentary civilization can control no no sedentary civilization can control this area. The The only individual who this area. The The only individual who this area. The The only individual who ever managed to rule large sections of ever managed to rule large sections of ever managed to rule large sections of the steppe was the Tang emperor Taizong the steppe was the Tang emperor Taizong the steppe was the Tang emperor Taizong in the 7th century. He was able to in the 7th century. He was able to in the 7th century. He was able to overthrow the Turkish Khaganate and overthrow the Turkish Khaganate and overthrow the Turkish Khaganate and control the Eastern and Western Turks in control the Eastern and Western Turks in control the Eastern and Western Turks in his lifetime, but his successors his lifetime, but his successors his lifetime, but his successors immediately lost control. And one of the immediately lost control. And one of the immediately lost control. And one of the reasons was that he was accepted by many reasons was that he was accepted by many reasons was that he was accepted by many of the Turks as a great warrior in his of the Turks as a great warrior in his of the Turks as a great warrior in his own right and in many ways preferred the own right and in many ways preferred the own right and in many ways preferred the martial life of the steppes to his martial life of the steppes to his martial life of the steppes to his Mandarin Mandarin Mandarin Confucian bureaucrats.

Confucian bureaucrats. Confucian bureaucrats. But he's an exception. And as you But he's an exception. And as you But he's an exception. And as you mentioned, it's only when you have mentioned, it's only when you have mentioned, it's only when you have effective firearms, not just artillery, effective firearms, not just artillery, effective firearms, not just artillery, but handheld firearms that the Russians but handheld firearms that the Russians but handheld firearms that the Russians on one end and the Chinese on the other on one end and the Chinese on the other on one end and the Chinese on the other move in to essentially divide control of move in to essentially divide control of move in to essentially divide control of the steppes and stop this movement. the steppes and stop this movement. the steppes and stop this movement. And prevent this cycle of tribes moving And prevent this cycle of tribes moving And prevent this cycle of tribes moving around and jostling. And all of a sudden around and jostling. And all of a sudden around and jostling. And all of a sudden one group realizes for us to be more one group realizes for us to be more one group realizes for us to be more effective, we have to build up a more effective, we have to build up a more effective, we have to build up a more successful confederation. successful confederation. successful confederation. And so first you get the Xiongnu, then And so first you get the Xiongnu, then And so first you get the Xiongnu, then you get the the Rouran Khaganate and you get the the Rouran Khaganate and you get the the Rouran Khaganate and then you get the Turks and then you get then you get the Turks and then you get then you get the Turks and then you get the Uyghurs. Each time a confederacy the Uyghurs. Each time a confederacy the Uyghurs. Each time a confederacy learning from its predecessors and the learning from its predecessors and the learning from its predecessors and the necessity to be able to feed its necessity to be able to feed its necessity to be able to feed its population and have access to the goods population and have access to the goods population and have access to the goods of the sedentary civilization. of the sedentary civilization. of the sedentary civilization. So, they do. They They learn They get So, they do. They They learn They get So, they do. They They learn They get better. better. better. And the best of all were the Mongols.

And the best of all were the Mongols. And the best of all were the Mongols. And And And even by the standards of the 13th even by the standards of the 13th even by the standards of the 13th century, the Mongols waged war fiercely century, the Mongols waged war fiercely century, the Mongols waged war fiercely on a massive scale of of massacre in on a massive scale of of massacre in on a massive scale of of massacre in order to break the will of their order to break the will of their order to break the will of their opponents. opponents. opponents. And And And Chinese, Muslim, Western Christian, Chinese, Muslim, Western Christian, Chinese, Muslim, Western Christian, Russian sources all report atrocities Russian sources all report atrocities Russian sources all report atrocities which which shocks them and these are which which shocks them and these are which which shocks them and these are people who do not wage war among people who do not wage war among people who do not wage war among themselves according to Geneva themselves according to Geneva themselves according to Geneva Convention. I mean, they they're pretty Convention. I mean, they they're pretty Convention. I mean, they they're pretty brutal themselves. But the Mongols have brutal themselves. But the Mongols have brutal themselves. But the Mongols have taken this warfare on the steppes and taken this warfare on the steppes and taken this warfare on the steppes and refined it to a very high degree of refined it to a very high degree of refined it to a very high degree of destruction. destruction. destruction. And some would argue that Genghis Khan And some would argue that Genghis Khan And some would argue that Genghis Khan and his son and grandsons were waging and his son and grandsons were waging and his son and grandsons were waging war almost on a genocidal level in in war almost on a genocidal level in in war almost on a genocidal level in in some instances. some instances. some instances. Well, let's talk about that a minute Well, let's talk about that a minute Well, let's talk about that a minute because that was always the the because that was always the the because that was always the the prevailing portrayal of of the Mongols, prevailing portrayal of of the Mongols, prevailing portrayal of of the Mongols, right? The Russians have never ceased right? The Russians have never ceased right? The Russians have never ceased explaining how horrible it was. But explaining how horrible it was. But explaining how horrible it was. But there were some books that came out a there were some books that came out a there were some books that came out a little while back that make Genghis Khan little while back that make Genghis Khan little while back that make Genghis Khan sound like, you know, sound like, you know, sound like, you know, well, you know, the old line about the well, you know, the old line about the well, you know, the old line about the tradeoffs of empire, right? On one hand, tradeoffs of empire, right? On one hand, tradeoffs of empire, right? On one hand, you you on one hand you have the you you on one hand you have the you you on one hand you have the tradeoffs on empire, on the other hand tradeoffs on empire, on the other hand tradeoffs on empire, on the other hand you have the Romans create a wasteland you have the Romans create a wasteland you have the Romans create a wasteland and call it peace. Um and call it peace. Um and call it peace. Um So, so you fall plainly on the side that So, so you fall plainly on the side that So, so you fall plainly on the side that the the accounts of the Mongols creating the the accounts of the Mongols creating the the accounts of the Mongols creating towers of skulls and rivers of fats and

towers of skulls and rivers of fats and towers of skulls and rivers of fats and all those things are real and that this all those things are real and that this all those things are real and that this You know, I I remember having a You know, I I remember having a You know, I I remember having a conversation with somebody where they conversation with somebody where they conversation with somebody where they were talking about how the Mongols were were talking about how the Mongols were were talking about how the Mongols were so religiously tolerant and I said, "But so religiously tolerant and I said, "But so religiously tolerant and I said, "But yeah, but they can do anything they want yeah, but they can do anything they want yeah, but they can do anything they want to you, right?" I mean, so So, it's like to you, right?" I mean, so So, it's like to you, right?" I mean, so So, it's like saying they can take your daughter for a saying they can take your daughter for a saying they can take your daughter for a slave, but they're religiously tolerant. slave, but they're religiously tolerant. slave, but they're religiously tolerant. So, explain to me a little if you can, So, explain to me a little if you can, So, explain to me a little if you can, I guess what I'm saying is you're buying I guess what I'm saying is you're buying I guess what I'm saying is you're buying the the the historical the the the historical the the the historical portrayal of the Mongols and steppe portrayal of the Mongols and steppe portrayal of the Mongols and steppe peoples Well, let's let's talk about peoples Well, let's let's talk about peoples Well, let's let's talk about ancient warfare the same way. But this ancient warfare the same way. But this ancient warfare the same way. But this is brutality on like you said, is brutality on like you said, is brutality on like you said, practically a genocidal scale. practically a genocidal scale. practically a genocidal scale. Yeah, and that is because Yeah, and that is because Yeah, and that is because of several factors. In the Mongols, the of several factors. In the Mongols, the of several factors. In the Mongols, the way Once Once you go to war, all bets way Once Once you go to war, all bets way Once Once you go to war, all bets are off. If a city resists are off. If a city resists are off. If a city resists and then surrenders or falls, and then surrenders or falls, and then surrenders or falls, it the conqueror has complete control of it the conqueror has complete control of it the conqueror has complete control of it and can do what he wish. it and can do what he wish. it and can do what he wish. And you'll you'll have to negotiate a And you'll you'll have to negotiate a And you'll you'll have to negotiate a surrender surrender surrender almost immediately before you can almost immediately before you can almost immediately before you can resist. And one of the reasons for the resist. And one of the reasons for the resist. And one of the reasons for the terror is to drive people in the terror is to drive people in the terror is to drive people in the countryside into the city spreading countryside into the city spreading countryside into the city spreading rumors of the massive Mongol army rumors of the massive Mongol army rumors of the massive Mongol army approaching and the the dangers you're approaching and the the dangers you're approaching and the the dangers you're in in the hope that the city will just in in the hope that the city will just in in the hope that the city will just surrender.

surrender. surrender. Another aspect is that it's um Another aspect is that it's um Another aspect is that it's um warfare is personal. warfare is personal. warfare is personal. Uh Uh Uh When close members of Mongols of Genghis When close members of Mongols of Genghis When close members of Mongols of Genghis Khan's family are killed in battle, he Khan's family are killed in battle, he Khan's family are killed in battle, he takes that personally. It's It's It's a takes that personally. It's It's It's a takes that personally. It's It's It's a code of honor and the entire city or code of honor and the entire city or code of honor and the entire city or area will be devastated to propitiate area will be devastated to propitiate area will be devastated to propitiate the spirit of that lost relative. That's the spirit of that lost relative. That's the spirit of that lost relative. That's That's a That's a That's a That's an awful price to pay, but you That's an awful price to pay, but you That's an awful price to pay, but you have to remember they are still have to remember they are still have to remember they are still operating in very much a heroic martial operating in very much a heroic martial operating in very much a heroic martial ethos in which one's honor is at stake ethos in which one's honor is at stake ethos in which one's honor is at stake And in killing your close family members And in killing your close family members And in killing your close family members is an insult to your honor. And and and is an insult to your honor. And and and is an insult to your honor. And and and you will and they will pay the price. Uh you will and they will pay the price. Uh you will and they will pay the price. Uh rebellion any kind of rebellion is rebellion any kind of rebellion is rebellion any kind of rebellion is treated incredibly harshly. And you see treated incredibly harshly. And you see treated incredibly harshly. And you see that in the cities of Iran and that in the cities of Iran and that in the cities of Iran and Transoxiana. Transoxiana would be today Transoxiana. Transoxiana would be today Transoxiana. Transoxiana would be today essentially Uzbekistan. essentially Uzbekistan. essentially Uzbekistan. And um the Mongols would just brutally And um the Mongols would just brutally And um the Mongols would just brutally punish cities that have rebelled, punish cities that have rebelled, punish cities that have rebelled, especially if they've killed members of especially if they've killed members of especially if they've killed members of the Mongol garrison or envoys, whatever the Mongol garrison or envoys, whatever the Mongol garrison or envoys, whatever the case will be.

the case will be. the case will be. So, there there no doubt is So, there there no doubt is So, there there no doubt is exaggeration. exaggeration. exaggeration. Um there's all these apocalyptic terms Um there's all these apocalyptic terms Um there's all these apocalyptic terms that are used. You've got Matthew Paris that are used. You've got Matthew Paris that are used. You've got Matthew Paris in England coining the name Tartars for in England coining the name Tartars for in England coining the name Tartars for the Mongols, meaning they come from the Mongols, meaning they come from the Mongols, meaning they come from Tartarus, the the classical underworld, Tartarus, the the classical underworld, Tartarus, the the classical underworld, that is hell. And uh they're the devil's that is hell. And uh they're the devil's that is hell. And uh they're the devil's horsemen. horsemen. horsemen. But the use of um massacres and brutal But the use of um massacres and brutal But the use of um massacres and brutal uh reprisals is part and parcel of the uh reprisals is part and parcel of the uh reprisals is part and parcel of the way the Mongols waged war. And you just way the Mongols waged war. And you just way the Mongols waged war. And you just can't dismiss all these accounts. can't dismiss all these accounts. can't dismiss all these accounts. There's there's too many of them from There's there's too many of them from There's there's too many of them from different sources. And we know what the different sources. And we know what the different sources. And we know what the conditions are like on the steppes, and conditions are like on the steppes, and conditions are like on the steppes, and we know what warfare was even like among we know what warfare was even like among we know what warfare was even like among the tribes. I mean, tribes that rebelled the tribes. I mean, tribes that rebelled the tribes. I mean, tribes that rebelled uh against who was then known as Temüjin uh against who was then known as Temüjin uh against who was then known as Temüjin before he took the time the title before he took the time the title before he took the time the title Genghis Khan were just as brutally put Genghis Khan were just as brutally put Genghis Khan were just as brutally put down. down. down. You know, one tribe, all the men You know, one tribe, all the men You know, one tribe, all the men taller than um the great wheel of a of a taller than um the great wheel of a of a taller than um the great wheel of a of a mobile home, a yurt, is is just executed mobile home, a yurt, is is just executed mobile home, a yurt, is is just executed uh in reprisal for the rebellion, which uh in reprisal for the rebellion, which uh in reprisal for the rebellion, which saw the death of one of his relatives.

saw the death of one of his relatives. saw the death of one of his relatives. So, um yeah, I I I do believe So, um yeah, I I I do believe So, um yeah, I I I do believe that they waged war very violently. The that they waged war very violently. The that they waged war very violently. The same reports are given of Attila, same reports are given of Attila, same reports are given of Attila, especially in northern Italy and Gaul. especially in northern Italy and Gaul. especially in northern Italy and Gaul. Uh that would be in his campaigns of 451 Uh that would be in his campaigns of 451 Uh that would be in his campaigns of 451 and 452. and 452. and 452. And this is how war is waged. And this is how war is waged. And this is how war is waged. It's um the losers lose. And unless you It's um the losers lose. And unless you It's um the losers lose. And unless you submit immediately, the conqueror has submit immediately, the conqueror has submit immediately, the conqueror has the right to mete out whatever the right to mete out whatever the right to mete out whatever punishment he wants. punishment he wants. punishment he wants. Well, and there's a pragmatic side to Well, and there's a pragmatic side to Well, and there's a pragmatic side to that, too. I mean, if you want to look that, too. I mean, if you want to look that, too. I mean, if you want to look at it that way. Uh if you have to level at it that way. Uh if you have to level at it that way. Uh if you have to level one city like Baghdad, the next time you one city like Baghdad, the next time you one city like Baghdad, the next time you ask another city to to surrender, the ask another city to to surrender, the ask another city to to surrender, the the odds get better. Uh and and we the odds get better. Uh and and we the odds get better. Uh and and we should also point out that there's should also point out that there's should also point out that there's the it's not exactly pleasant to have the it's not exactly pleasant to have the it's not exactly pleasant to have the Crusaders during the Crusade sack the Crusaders during the Crusade sack the Crusaders during the Crusade sack your city. Uh your city. Uh your city. Uh uh uh uh it's never been wonderful steppe people it's never been wonderful steppe people it's never been wonderful steppe people or settled people. And what's the old or settled people. And what's the old or settled people. And what's the old line? If you if you if you make the line? If you if you if you make the line? If you if you if you make the enemy enemy enemy conduct a siege, then they're going to conduct a siege, then they're going to conduct a siege, then they're going to sack your city, and that's going to be sack your city, and that's going to be sack your city, and that's going to be awful, whether you're steppe tribe or awful, whether you're steppe tribe or awful, whether you're steppe tribe or not. Um so so let's talk a little bit not. Um so so let's talk a little bit not. Um so so let's talk a little bit then about um then about um then about um about some of these people like I I I'm about some of these people like I I I'm about some of these people like I I I'm very interested because we didn't have very interested because we didn't have very interested because we didn't have this information when I was growing up.

this information when I was growing up. this information when I was growing up. I mean, we had Attila. We had Genghis I mean, we had Attila. We had Genghis I mean, we had Attila. We had Genghis Khan. We didn't have some of these Khan. We didn't have some of these Khan. We didn't have some of these earlier leaders that you go into great earlier leaders that you go into great earlier leaders that you go into great depth upon. Some of these guys who were depth upon. Some of these guys who were depth upon. Some of these guys who were the first of the empire builders, the the first of the empire builders, the the first of the empire builders, the the Xiongnu leaders and whatnot. Can you the Xiongnu leaders and whatnot. Can you the Xiongnu leaders and whatnot. Can you talk a little bit about one of those talk a little bit about one of those talk a little bit about one of those great leaders? Well, Modu Chanyu is great leaders? Well, Modu Chanyu is great leaders? Well, Modu Chanyu is largely known from accounts of the largely known from accounts of the largely known from accounts of the Chinese historians. Chinese historians. Chinese historians. And he's the first uh steppe conqueror And he's the first uh steppe conqueror And he's the first uh steppe conqueror we know by name at the end of the 3rd, we know by name at the end of the 3rd, we know by name at the end of the 3rd, beginning of the 2nd century BC. And he beginning of the 2nd century BC. And he beginning of the 2nd century BC. And he essentially overthrew his father by essentially overthrew his father by essentially overthrew his father by creating a bodyguard of excellent creating a bodyguard of excellent creating a bodyguard of excellent archers and then turning them on his archers and then turning them on his archers and then turning them on his father at what was was supposed to be a father at what was was supposed to be a father at what was was supposed to be a practice coup practice coup practice coup and seizing power. And he builds a and seizing power. And he builds a and seizing power. And he builds a confederation in which he drives some of confederation in which he drives some of confederation in which he drives some of the tribes west, notably Tokharian the tribes west, notably Tokharian the tribes west, notably Tokharian speakers become the future Kushans of speakers become the future Kushans of speakers become the future Kushans of Central Asia and northern India. And he Central Asia and northern India. And he Central Asia and northern India. And he subjects the other tribes. And his subjects the other tribes. And his subjects the other tribes. And his confederation lasts extremely long time. confederation lasts extremely long time. confederation lasts extremely long time. It's able to cut treaties with the early It's able to cut treaties with the early It's able to cut treaties with the early Han emperors. But it's really the Han emperors. But it's really the Han emperors. But it's really the Emperor Wu Di who decides to wage war Emperor Wu Di who decides to wage war Emperor Wu Di who decides to wage war against the Xiongnu. And this will against the Xiongnu. And this will against the Xiongnu. And this will consume the resources of the Han Empire consume the resources of the Han Empire consume the resources of the Han Empire for the next two centuries.

for the next two centuries. for the next two centuries. Eventually, they break up the Eventually, they break up the Eventually, they break up the confederation. confederation. confederation. Um Um Um They break into a northern and southern They break into a northern and southern They break into a northern and southern confederation at the end of the 1st confederation at the end of the 1st confederation at the end of the 1st century BC. century BC. century BC. Uh Uh Uh some of the tribes are are hired into some of the tribes are are hired into some of the tribes are are hired into Chinese service, but ultimately, it's Chinese service, but ultimately, it's Chinese service, but ultimately, it's almost self-defeating because these almost self-defeating because these almost self-defeating because these tribes take over the monopoly of tribes take over the monopoly of tribes take over the monopoly of defending the northern frontiers, the defending the northern frontiers, the defending the northern frontiers, the tribes close to the Chinese border. And tribes close to the Chinese border. And tribes close to the Chinese border. And eventually, they go into business for eventually, they go into business for eventually, they go into business for themselves. And the parallel between themselves. And the parallel between themselves. And the parallel between that and my more detailed study of the that and my more detailed study of the that and my more detailed study of the Roman Empire are are very real. Well, Roman Empire are are very real. Well, Roman Empire are are very real. Well, the Romans hired the Germans to patrol the Romans hired the Germans to patrol the Romans hired the Germans to patrol their frontiers, and the problem is they their frontiers, and the problem is they their frontiers, and the problem is they get a monopoly on armed force, and then get a monopoly on armed force, and then get a monopoly on armed force, and then they go into the empire and decide to they go into the empire and decide to they go into the empire and decide to take areas for their own. Chased by the take areas for their own. Chased by the take areas for their own. Chased by the Huns, but nonetheless, they're in Huns, but nonetheless, they're in Huns, but nonetheless, they're in business for themselves. business for themselves. business for themselves. So, So, So, uh the other are the brothers who turn uh the other are the brothers who turn uh the other are the brothers who turn the Seljuk Turks um the Seljuk Turks um the Seljuk Turks um into a great power, particularly Tughril into a great power, particularly Tughril into a great power, particularly Tughril Beg, who in 1055 enters Baghdad and Beg, who in 1055 enters Baghdad and Beg, who in 1055 enters Baghdad and restores the power of the Sunni restores the power of the Sunni restores the power of the Sunni Caliphate. And um Caliphate. And um Caliphate. And um but it took him 25 years of fighting out but it took him 25 years of fighting out but it took him 25 years of fighting out in on the eastern steppes and in in on the eastern steppes and in in on the eastern steppes and in Transoxiana and eastern Iran to build up Transoxiana and eastern Iran to build up Transoxiana and eastern Iran to build up that position. And then and move the Turks into Asia Minor. The and move the Turks into Asia Minor. The Turks Those Those Those two rulers Turks Those Those Those two rulers Turks Those Those Those two rulers uh really changed the political

uh really changed the political uh really changed the political landscape and eventually the ethnic and landscape and eventually the ethnic and landscape and eventually the ethnic and linguistic landscape of the Near East. linguistic landscape of the Near East. linguistic landscape of the Near East. Um And it's you could still see their Um And it's you could still see their Um And it's you could still see their results today. Asia Minor is the results today. Asia Minor is the results today. Asia Minor is the heartland of the Turkish Republic. heartland of the Turkish Republic. heartland of the Turkish Republic. At the time they arrived, it was the At the time they arrived, it was the At the time they arrived, it was the heartland of a Christian, Greek-speaking heartland of a Christian, Greek-speaking heartland of a Christian, Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire. This is a major Byzantine Empire. This is a major Byzantine Empire. This is a major change. And they also triggered the change. And they also triggered the change. And they also triggered the Crusade by disrupting the pilgrimage Crusade by disrupting the pilgrimage Crusade by disrupting the pilgrimage routes. Bumin, who uh overthrew his routes. Bumin, who uh overthrew his routes. Bumin, who uh overthrew his overlords uh and is the first Turkish overlords uh and is the first Turkish overlords uh and is the first Turkish ruler we know by name, he and his ruler we know by name, he and his ruler we know by name, he and his brother uh spread the Turkish power brother uh spread the Turkish power brother uh spread the Turkish power across Eurasia very rapidly in the early across Eurasia very rapidly in the early across Eurasia very rapidly in the early 6th century AD mid-6th century AD. And 6th century AD mid-6th century AD. And 6th century AD mid-6th century AD. And uh and while he only ruled for a couple uh and while he only ruled for a couple uh and while he only ruled for a couple of years, he's dead by of years, he's dead by of years, he's dead by 552, the 552, the 552, the ethnic transformation of the steppes ethnic transformation of the steppes ethnic transformation of the steppes endures to this day. You know, um endures to this day. You know, um endures to this day. You know, um except for Kyrgyzstan, um all of those except for Kyrgyzstan, um all of those except for Kyrgyzstan, um all of those Central Asian Republics speak a Turkish Central Asian Republics speak a Turkish Central Asian Republics speak a Turkish language. Uh an eastern Turkish language. Uh an eastern Turkish language. Uh an eastern Turkish language, most of them, language, most of them, language, most of them, which for a modern Turk in the Turkish which for a modern Turk in the Turkish which for a modern Turk in the Turkish Republic, they can understand basically, Republic, they can understand basically, Republic, they can understand basically, but the languages have diverged. So, but the languages have diverged. So, but the languages have diverged. So, um um um it was wonderful to do this book. And in it was wonderful to do this book. And in it was wonderful to do this book. And in each chapter, I tried to each chapter, I tried to each chapter, I tried to zero in on figures that we knew zero in on figures that we knew zero in on figures that we knew something about who would be something about who would be something about who would be remarkable figures to engage the reader remarkable figures to engage the reader remarkable figures to engage the reader because ultimately, history is about because ultimately, history is about because ultimately, history is about people.

people. people. And we learn from history because we're And we learn from history because we're And we learn from history because we're dealing with other humans and how they dealing with other humans and how they dealing with other humans and how they deal with uh crises and and different deal with uh crises and and different deal with uh crises and and different types of situations, what their beliefs types of situations, what their beliefs types of situations, what their beliefs are. And I always try to put myself in are. And I always try to put myself in are. And I always try to put myself in the position of those people and try to the position of those people and try to the position of those people and try to see the world through their eyes. Um see the world through their eyes. Um see the world through their eyes. Um that's my job as a historian. And then that's my job as a historian. And then that's my job as a historian. And then interpret, what does it mean? Uh what's interpret, what does it mean? Uh what's interpret, what does it mean? Uh what's the importance of this for the present the importance of this for the present the importance of this for the present generation and hopefully the future generation and hopefully the future generation and hopefully the future generation? Because it's the only record generation? Because it's the only record generation? Because it's the only record we have, the past. we have, the past. we have, the past. The present is just a point in time, and The present is just a point in time, and The present is just a point in time, and the future, well, we don't know what the the future, well, we don't know what the the future, well, we don't know what the future is. But by looking to the past, future is. But by looking to the past, future is. But by looking to the past, we might be able to gain some lessons in we might be able to gain some lessons in we might be able to gain some lessons in order to deal with the future. And in order to deal with the future. And in order to deal with the future. And in that sense, I'm very much a classical that sense, I'm very much a classical that sense, I'm very much a classical historian. History has a didactic historian. History has a didactic historian. History has a didactic purpose. I know a lot of my colleagues purpose. I know a lot of my colleagues purpose. I know a lot of my colleagues would jump on me for saying that. would jump on me for saying that. would jump on me for saying that. But um there is uh there is a reason to But um there is uh there is a reason to But um there is uh there is a reason to study it. study it. study it. And just like you, at an early age, I And just like you, at an early age, I And just like you, at an early age, I read about the Mongols and I read about read about the Mongols and I read about read about the Mongols and I read about Attila the Hun, and I was fascinated Attila the Hun, and I was fascinated Attila the Hun, and I was fascinated with the fact that you have all of these with the fact that you have all of these with the fact that you have all of these um different tribes on the Eurasian um different tribes on the Eurasian um different tribes on the Eurasian steppes who keep reappearing.

steppes who keep reappearing. steppes who keep reappearing. You know, for Europeans of the Middle You know, for Europeans of the Middle You know, for Europeans of the Middle Ages, it's like, "Okay, uh it's now the Ages, it's like, "Okay, uh it's now the Ages, it's like, "Okay, uh it's now the 11th century. Who's the new nomadic 11th century. Who's the new nomadic 11th century. Who's the new nomadic conqueror du jour?" Uh conqueror du jour?" Uh conqueror du jour?" Uh uh it's now the 12th century. Who's uh it's now the 12th century. Who's uh it's now the 12th century. Who's replaced them? Oh, it's now the Cumans. replaced them? Oh, it's now the Cumans. replaced them? Oh, it's now the Cumans. Um Um Um um I'm being a bit facetious, but that um I'm being a bit facetious, but that um I'm being a bit facetious, but that was my initial reaction as a boy growing was my initial reaction as a boy growing was my initial reaction as a boy growing up reading about all this. Yeah, up reading about all this. Yeah, up reading about all this. Yeah, springing from the concept of there springing from the concept of there springing from the concept of there being a womb of nations somewhere that being a womb of nations somewhere that being a womb of nations somewhere that just spit these people out one after just spit these people out one after just spit these people out one after another. You know, I remember reading a another. You know, I remember reading a another. You know, I remember reading a line that that I've never forgotten that line that that I've never forgotten that line that that I've never forgotten that was talking about the Mongol conquest was talking about the Mongol conquest was talking about the Mongol conquest and giving it sense of its breadth. And and giving it sense of its breadth. And and giving it sense of its breadth. And they said the Mongols were fighting the they said the Mongols were fighting the they said the Mongols were fighting the Teutonic Knights in the west and the Teutonic Knights in the west and the Teutonic Knights in the west and the Japanese in the east, both of whom were Japanese in the east, both of whom were Japanese in the east, both of whom were unaware of the other's existence. And unaware of the other's existence. And unaware of the other's existence. And that that that invaded China, by the way. That's That's invaded China, by the way. That's That's invaded China, by the way. That's That's right. That's right. And and and so so right. That's right. And and and so so right. That's right. And and and so so it makes me think though because we we it makes me think though because we we it makes me think though because we we grow up or you and I are grow up or you and I are grow up or you and I are you're a little older than I am, but you're a little older than I am, but you're a little older than I am, but we're both neither one of us pretty very we're both neither one of us pretty very we're both neither one of us pretty very young. And when we were growing up, this young. And when we were growing up, this young. And when we were growing up, this idea was that the places that mattered idea was that the places that mattered idea was that the places that mattered were the settled societies with cities were the settled societies with cities were the settled societies with cities and writing and all that kind of stuff.

and writing and all that kind of stuff. and writing and all that kind of stuff. And yet, it's so clear from your book And yet, it's so clear from your book And yet, it's so clear from your book that the nomads of the Eurasian steppe that the nomads of the Eurasian steppe that the nomads of the Eurasian steppe provide the connective tissue that provide the connective tissue that provide the connective tissue that connect parts of the world that didn't connect parts of the world that didn't connect parts of the world that didn't even I mean I mean, the Byzantines may even I mean I mean, the Byzantines may even I mean I mean, the Byzantines may know that there's a China somewhere and know that there's a China somewhere and know that there's a China somewhere and vice versa, but they don't have any vice versa, but they don't have any vice versa, but they don't have any direct connection. It's the it's these direct connection. It's the it's these direct connection. It's the it's these cultures of the steppe through the Silk cultures of the steppe through the Silk cultures of the steppe through the Silk Road, through trade, through the spread Road, through trade, through the spread Road, through trade, through the spread of ideas that are the ones that create of ideas that are the ones that create of ideas that are the ones that create these both intellectual, cultural, and these both intellectual, cultural, and these both intellectual, cultural, and actual physical connections between actual physical connections between actual physical connections between these cultures that don't have direct these cultures that don't have direct these cultures that don't have direct connections. Can you talk a little about connections. Can you talk a little about connections. Can you talk a little about that? Yeah, and um there's been some that? Yeah, and um there's been some that? Yeah, and um there's been some very good books by popular historians very good books by popular historians very good books by popular historians especially on especially on especially on what's his name Jack Weatherford on what's his name Jack Weatherford on what's his name Jack Weatherford on Mongols and how Mongols and how Mongols and how the Pax Mongolica to the Pax Mongolica to the Pax Mongolica to coin a term from coin a term from coin a term from Pax Romana in the 13th century made Pax Romana in the 13th century made Pax Romana in the 13th century made possible all sorts of trade and exchange possible all sorts of trade and exchange possible all sorts of trade and exchange of ideas and technology and knowledge of ideas and technology and knowledge of ideas and technology and knowledge that made the modern world possible.

that made the modern world possible. that made the modern world possible. And without the spread of gunpowder you And without the spread of gunpowder you And without the spread of gunpowder you wouldn't have had the military wouldn't have had the military wouldn't have had the military revolutions you see in Europe and the revolutions you see in Europe and the revolutions you see in Europe and the Middle East in the 15th and 16th Middle East in the 15th and 16th Middle East in the 15th and 16th centuries which centuries which centuries which transformed the world. Scientific transformed the world. Scientific transformed the world. Scientific knowledge, different types of plants, knowledge, different types of plants, knowledge, different types of plants, geography, astronomy and astrology, all geography, astronomy and astrology, all geography, astronomy and astrology, all of this was exchanged among the four of this was exchanged among the four of this was exchanged among the four great ulus, that is the realms of the great ulus, that is the realms of the great ulus, that is the realms of the Mongol empire. A lot of exchange between Mongol empire. A lot of exchange between Mongol empire. A lot of exchange between the court of the Ilkhan centered in the court of the Ilkhan centered in the court of the Ilkhan centered in Persia Central Asia Persia Central Asia Persia Central Asia and the Mongol court centered in China and the Mongol court centered in China and the Mongol court centered in China and Mongolia, the homeland. It also and Mongolia, the homeland. It also and Mongolia, the homeland. It also promoted the spread of religions, promoted the spread of religions, promoted the spread of religions, whether Christianity at one point, whether Christianity at one point, whether Christianity at one point, especially Islam and Buddhism a great especially Islam and Buddhism a great especially Islam and Buddhism a great deal. deal. deal. And it's inconceivable to you know talk And it's inconceivable to you know talk And it's inconceivable to you know talk of the modern world, who we are today of the modern world, who we are today of the modern world, who we are today without taking these people into without taking these people into without taking these people into account. To be sure writing is an account. To be sure writing is an account. To be sure writing is an enormous achievement and and and the um enormous achievement and and and the um enormous achievement and and and the um high marks go to the Sumerians for high marks go to the Sumerians for high marks go to the Sumerians for inventing the first inventing the first inventing the first you know written system. It allows us to you know written system. It allows us to you know written system. It allows us to break the barrier time and write down break the barrier time and write down break the barrier time and write down our thoughts and transmit it to the next our thoughts and transmit it to the next our thoughts and transmit it to the next generation. But it's not the whole generation. But it's not the whole generation. But it's not the whole story.

story. story. And the trade across Eurasia like the And the trade across Eurasia like the And the trade across Eurasia like the Silk Road which is so important for this Silk Road which is so important for this Silk Road which is so important for this exchange owed very much to the the exchange owed very much to the the exchange owed very much to the the active participation and protection by active participation and protection by active participation and protection by the nomads. the nomads. the nomads. It could be individual tribes who would It could be individual tribes who would It could be individual tribes who would hire out their men as guards to caravans hire out their men as guards to caravans hire out their men as guards to caravans or would breed camels in the Middle Ages or would breed camels in the Middle Ages or would breed camels in the Middle Ages these hybrid camels that could be used these hybrid camels that could be used these hybrid camels that could be used as beasts of burden. Any merchant as beasts of burden. Any merchant as beasts of burden. Any merchant trading along the Silk Road always trading along the Silk Road always trading along the Silk Road always bought what were called tag goods that bought what were called tag goods that bought what were called tag goods that is their additional goods that they is their additional goods that they is their additional goods that they could barter and exchange or just give could barter and exchange or just give could barter and exchange or just give as gifts to the nomadic tribes along the as gifts to the nomadic tribes along the as gifts to the nomadic tribes along the way that made the routes possible and way that made the routes possible and way that made the routes possible and and safe. and safe. and safe. And then any ruler with a great And then any ruler with a great And then any ruler with a great confederation would very much want to confederation would very much want to confederation would very much want to control these trade routes and impose control these trade routes and impose control these trade routes and impose peace security and of course be able to peace security and of course be able to peace security and of course be able to tax it. And furthermore we do know that tax it. And furthermore we do know that tax it. And furthermore we do know that a number of these peoples do eventually a number of these peoples do eventually a number of these peoples do eventually adopt writing. There's this very old adopt writing. There's this very old adopt writing. There's this very old Turkish Turkish Turkish it looks like Norse runes and it's it's it looks like Norse runes and it's it's it looks like Norse runes and it's it's actually appropriate that it was a actually appropriate that it was a actually appropriate that it was a Danish philologist who first deciphered Danish philologist who first deciphered Danish philologist who first deciphered them. But they're in the Orkhon Valley them. But they're in the Orkhon Valley them. But they're in the Orkhon Valley in what is now Mongolia and these are in what is now Mongolia and these are in what is now Mongolia and these are the earliest Turkish inscriptions on the earliest Turkish inscriptions on the earliest Turkish inscriptions on one particularly I I quote a great deal one particularly I I quote a great deal one particularly I I quote a great deal because of its its value about the Turks because of its its value about the Turks because of its its value about the Turks of the 8th century by Bilge Khan. That of the 8th century by Bilge Khan. That of the 8th century by Bilge Khan. That inscription shows that they have inscription shows that they have inscription shows that they have invented their own phonetic writing invented their own phonetic writing invented their own phonetic writing system system system on their own in order to create on their own in order to create on their own in order to create memorialized great great deeds and memorialized great great deeds and memorialized great great deeds and probably kept various records. So they

probably kept various records. So they probably kept various records. So they do learn literacy at different points. do learn literacy at different points. do learn literacy at different points. And we do know examples of this And we do know examples of this And we do know examples of this Turkish runes have popped up as far as Turkish runes have popped up as far as Turkish runes have popped up as far as Bulgaria and Hungary that it was Bulgaria and Hungary that it was Bulgaria and Hungary that it was probably widely spread. And it was the probably widely spread. And it was the probably widely spread. And it was the conversion to Islam that conversion to Islam that conversion to Islam that led to the abandonment of this alphabet led to the abandonment of this alphabet led to the abandonment of this alphabet and the adaptation of the Arabic and the adaptation of the Arabic and the adaptation of the Arabic alphabet alphabet alphabet which was not particularly well suited which was not particularly well suited which was not particularly well suited for the Turkish language. It was for the Turkish language. It was for the Turkish language. It was difficult to do the transition. But by difficult to do the transition. But by difficult to do the transition. But by as Muslims they were going to make sure as Muslims they were going to make sure as Muslims they were going to make sure that their Turkish language was in the that their Turkish language was in the that their Turkish language was in the writing similar to the sacred language writing similar to the sacred language writing similar to the sacred language that would be the appropriate you know that would be the appropriate you know that would be the appropriate you know connection they would make. connection they would make. connection they would make. So you're you're absolutely correct So you're you're absolutely correct So you're you're absolutely correct about this. And I also put a great deal about this. And I also put a great deal about this. And I also put a great deal of credit to Marco Polo painting that of credit to Marco Polo painting that of credit to Marco Polo painting that image of Kublai Khan and Cathay and his image of Kublai Khan and Cathay and his image of Kublai Khan and Cathay and his fabulous palace of Xanadu because the fabulous palace of Xanadu because the fabulous palace of Xanadu because the Europeans were just Europeans were just Europeans were just enraptured with this idea. And that enraptured with this idea. And that enraptured with this idea. And that eventually leads to the age of European eventually leads to the age of European eventually leads to the age of European discovery once you have ocean going discovery once you have ocean going discovery once you have ocean going vessels. Well, we'll sail west and we've vessels. Well, we'll sail west and we've vessels. Well, we'll sail west and we've got to bump into Cathay and then we'll got to bump into Cathay and then we'll got to bump into Cathay and then we'll get all the goods that Marco told us get all the goods that Marco told us get all the goods that Marco told us about you know 150 years earlier.

about you know 150 years earlier. about you know 150 years earlier. They just didn't bank on running into They just didn't bank on running into They just didn't bank on running into two new continents. two new continents. two new continents. But um But um But um so so so in writing the book it was so much fun in writing the book it was so much fun in writing the book it was so much fun to make these connections. to make these connections. to make these connections. And writing a book like this is a And writing a book like this is a And writing a book like this is a continuation of my teaching. I've been a continuation of my teaching. I've been a continuation of my teaching. I've been a teacher of 43 years. I enjoy teaching teacher of 43 years. I enjoy teaching teacher of 43 years. I enjoy teaching immensely and lecturing and writing a immensely and lecturing and writing a immensely and lecturing and writing a book that's aimed for the more general book that's aimed for the more general book that's aimed for the more general public is a way of continuing that. And public is a way of continuing that. And public is a way of continuing that. And um um um you know we're we're just unstoppable you know we're we're just unstoppable you know we're we're just unstoppable this way. We we love our audiences. this way. We we love our audiences. this way. We we love our audiences. Well, we'll make this the last question. Well, we'll make this the last question. Well, we'll make this the last question. I remember reading a wonderful book I remember reading a wonderful book I remember reading a wonderful book called China Marches West which was called China Marches West which was called China Marches West which was talking about the the cuz you alluded to talking about the the cuz you alluded to talking about the the cuz you alluded to it earlier the Chinese conquest of the it earlier the Chinese conquest of the it earlier the Chinese conquest of the steppe to their west while the Russian steppe to their west while the Russian steppe to their west while the Russian conquest of their steppe to their east conquest of their steppe to their east conquest of their steppe to their east is going on. It's a little analogous to is going on. It's a little analogous to is going on. It's a little analogous to the conquest of the American West. And the conquest of the American West. And the conquest of the American West. And once those two powers conquer their once those two powers conquer their once those two powers conquer their their steppe areas the importance of the their steppe areas the importance of the their steppe areas the importance of the locally grown locally grown locally grown steppe tribes in that region seem to be steppe tribes in that region seem to be steppe tribes in that region seem to be subsumed under the sort of nation-state subsumed under the sort of nation-state subsumed under the sort of nation-state paradigm that's existed ever since and paradigm that's existed ever since and paradigm that's existed ever since and they seem no offense intended like they seem no offense intended like they seem no offense intended like backwaters compared to the importance backwaters compared to the importance backwaters compared to the importance that they used to have. I I can envision that they used to have. I I can envision that they used to have. I I can envision ways that those places could become ways that those places could become ways that those places could become extremely important again whether it's extremely important again whether it's extremely important again whether it's through lithium or other discoveries of

through lithium or other discoveries of through lithium or other discoveries of important minerals. Where do you see the important minerals. Where do you see the important minerals. Where do you see the future of those areas whether we're future of those areas whether we're future of those areas whether we're talking about Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, talking about Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, talking about Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan. Where do you see the future Uzbekistan. Where do you see the future Uzbekistan. Where do you see the future of those areas in the next century? of those areas in the next century? of those areas in the next century? Well Well Well that's that's that's that's asking me to be Well that's asking me to be Well that's asking me to be Well the Uyghur problem right now. So that's the Uyghur problem right now. So that's the Uyghur problem right now. So that's that's as we go on. Yes. that's as we go on. Yes. that's as we go on. Yes. Yeah, the Uyghurs Yeah, the Uyghurs Yeah, the Uyghurs the government in Beijing has inherited the government in Beijing has inherited the government in Beijing has inherited the policy going back to the Emperor Wu the policy going back to the Emperor Wu the policy going back to the Emperor Wu Di and that is to subject these people Di and that is to subject these people Di and that is to subject these people and sinicize them one way or the other. and sinicize them one way or the other. and sinicize them one way or the other. And the Chinese are not going to And the Chinese are not going to And the Chinese are not going to willingly give up control of that willingly give up control of that willingly give up control of that region. region. region. You'd have to have the collapse of the You'd have to have the collapse of the You'd have to have the collapse of the central authority in China for that central authority in China for that central authority in China for that region to become autonomous again and I region to become autonomous again and I region to become autonomous again and I suspect many Chinese colonists might suspect many Chinese colonists might suspect many Chinese colonists might leave. And the same would be true for leave. And the same would be true for leave. And the same would be true for Tibet and even for Inner Mongolia. These Tibet and even for Inner Mongolia. These Tibet and even for Inner Mongolia. These are areas that have been attached to are areas that have been attached to are areas that have been attached to China as a result of the Chinese central China as a result of the Chinese central China as a result of the Chinese central authority. We will not be invaded by authority. We will not be invaded by authority. We will not be invaded by barbarians again. We will never have a barbarians again. We will never have a barbarians again. We will never have a Mongol rule over us. You know, only the Mongol rule over us. You know, only the Mongol rule over us. You know, only the Han people are entitled to have the Han people are entitled to have the Han people are entitled to have the mandate of heaven. Okay, we'll make a a mandate of heaven. Okay, we'll make a a mandate of heaven. Okay, we'll make a a slight slight slight adjustment for the Manchu Qing but but adjustment for the Manchu Qing but but adjustment for the Manchu Qing but but that's that's that's the ideology that's that's that's that's the ideology that's that's that's that's the ideology that's it's the Han and Tang ideology. I do it's the Han and Tang ideology. I do it's the Han and Tang ideology. I do think with the Belt think with the Belt think with the Belt Road Initiative that Beijing is pushing Road Initiative that Beijing is pushing Road Initiative that Beijing is pushing now it's an effort to reassert control now it's an effort to reassert control now it's an effort to reassert control in that region. I doubt that it will be in that region. I doubt that it will be in that region. I doubt that it will be all that successful for a number of

all that successful for a number of all that successful for a number of reasons. reasons. reasons. And I think depending on what happens to And I think depending on what happens to And I think depending on what happens to Russia in this war against the Ukraine Russia in this war against the Ukraine Russia in this war against the Ukraine Russian influence in these regions might Russian influence in these regions might Russian influence in these regions might actually loosen and these states might actually loosen and these states might actually loosen and these states might go on their own go their own way from go on their own go their own way from go on their own go their own way from the Russian Confederation. We may be the Russian Confederation. We may be the Russian Confederation. We may be seeing a breakup of the Russian seeing a breakup of the Russian seeing a breakup of the Russian Confederation. I just don't know. It's Confederation. I just don't know. It's Confederation. I just don't know. It's the outcome of the outcome of the outcome of of the current war is difficult to of the current war is difficult to of the current war is difficult to protect. Turkey has tried to make protect. Turkey has tried to make protect. Turkey has tried to make initiatives in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, initiatives in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, initiatives in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan. They've sent in engineers, Kazakhstan. They've sent in engineers, Kazakhstan. They've sent in engineers, educators, business people to try to educators, business people to try to educators, business people to try to forge ties. Um forge ties. Um forge ties. Um this is going back to appeals to this is going back to appeals to this is going back to appeals to Pan-Turkism. But really given Turkey's geographic position and its to geographic position and its to significantly change these states. significantly change these states. significantly change these states. I do think the future might be for I do think the future might be for I do think the future might be for greater independence in those areas. Now greater independence in those areas. Now greater independence in those areas. Now what kind of government will emerge is what kind of government will emerge is what kind of government will emerge is hard to say. Right now you have hard to say. Right now you have hard to say. Right now you have authoritarian governments there. The authoritarian governments there. The authoritarian governments there. The discovery of discovery of discovery of mineral resources or petroleum of course mineral resources or petroleum of course mineral resources or petroleum of course helps if they go into exploit.

helps if they go into exploit. helps if they go into exploit. But you think of what the Russians did But you think of what the Russians did But you think of what the Russians did to the Aral Sea. They completely to the Aral Sea. They completely to the Aral Sea. They completely mismanaged it and destroyed it in mismanaged it and destroyed it in mismanaged it and destroyed it in ill-considered effort to irrigate for ill-considered effort to irrigate for ill-considered effort to irrigate for cotton and other products. So I don't cotton and other products. So I don't cotton and other products. So I don't think Mongolia at this point think Mongolia at this point think Mongolia at this point it has a precarious position between it has a precarious position between it has a precarious position between China and Russia. I don't know what the China and Russia. I don't know what the China and Russia. I don't know what the future of Mongolia will be there. future of Mongolia will be there. future of Mongolia will be there. They are subject to the fact that there They are subject to the fact that there They are subject to the fact that there are these two great powers are these two great powers are these two great powers since the 16th century that have since the 16th century that have since the 16th century that have dictated a lot of the politics on the dictated a lot of the politics on the dictated a lot of the politics on the steppes. My thanks to Professor Kenneth W. Harl My thanks to Professor Kenneth W. Harl for coming on the program today and for coming on the program today and for coming on the program today and talking about one of my all-time talking about one of my all-time talking about one of my all-time favorite subjects. His new book should favorite subjects. His new book should favorite subjects. His new book should be available by the time this show comes be available by the time this show comes be available by the time this show comes out. It's called Empires of the Steppes, out. It's called Empires of the Steppes, out. It's called Empires of the Steppes, a history of the nomadic tribes who a history of the nomadic tribes who a history of the nomadic tribes who shaped civilization. And as usual in shaped civilization. And as usual in shaped civilization. And as usual in order to facilitate the process of order to facilitate the process of order to facilitate the process of buying it should you want to we will buying it should you want to we will buying it should you want to we will link to it in the show notes. Update on link to it in the show notes. Update on link to it in the show notes. Update on the next big hardcore history. We work the next big hardcore history. We work the next big hardcore history. We work on it every day and we release it as on it every day and we release it as on it every day and we release it as soon as it's done. It is part two in our soon as it's done. It is part two in our soon as it's done. It is part two in our Viking story Twilight of the Eiser. If Viking story Twilight of the Eiser. If Viking story Twilight of the Eiser. If you would like an email from us when you would like an email from us when you would like an email from us when it's out or an email from us when it's out or an email from us when it's out or an email from us when another hardcore History addendum drops another hardcore History addendum drops another hardcore History addendum drops or when we have some important news or when we have some important news or when we have some important news updates, announcements, or bonus content updates, announcements, or bonus content updates, announcements, or bonus content to share. For example, the article I to share. For example, the article I to share. For example, the article I wrote on the congressional hearings

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