EP14 The Game of War

i imagine given the uh subject matter i imagine given the uh subject matter that i talk about on this program that i talk about on this program that i talk about on this program that there are quite a few people in the that there are quite a few people in the that there are quite a few people in the audience that have played audience that have played audience that have played strategy and tactic war gaming type um strategy and tactic war gaming type um strategy and tactic war gaming type um games on their computer or video console games on their computer or video console games on their computer or video console or what have you over the years or what have you over the years or what have you over the years if that's a subject that interests you if that's a subject that interests you if that's a subject that interests you gonna have an interview gonna have an interview gonna have an interview on this program where we talked to one on this program where we talked to one on this program where we talked to one of the founders of a company who makes of the founders of a company who makes of the founders of a company who makes the most up-to-date modern types of the most up-to-date modern types of the most up-to-date modern types of games um games um games um you know with a historical theme and all you know with a historical theme and all you know with a historical theme and all that that that i found by uh having the conversation i found by uh having the conversation i found by uh having the conversation with him that a lot of the same with him that a lot of the same with him that a lot of the same sorts of uh decisions and trade-offs and sorts of uh decisions and trade-offs and sorts of uh decisions and trade-offs and and and and questions and quandaries came up in questions and quandaries came up in questions and quandaries came up in their their their development meetings that that we had in development meetings that that we had in development meetings that that we had in the development meetings for war remains the development meetings for war remains the development meetings for war remains the the the virtual reality project i worked on um virtual reality project i worked on um virtual reality project i worked on um and that's at the and that's at the and that's at the world war one museum in kansas city by world war one museum in kansas city by world war one museum in kansas city by the way if you want to see that so if you like that kind of stuff a so if you like that kind of stuff a fascinating interview with maximilian fascinating interview with maximilian fascinating interview with maximilian ria who's a game is hell let loose ria who's a game is hell let loose ria who's a game is hell let loose and um it's it's a fascinating concept and um it's it's a fascinating concept and um it's it's a fascinating concept so so we'll talk to him a little bit so so we'll talk to him a little bit so so we'll talk to him a little bit later later later uh it was if there is a ben ben's idea uh it was if there is a ben ben's idea uh it was if there is a ben ben's idea that we talk about that we talk about that we talk about we sort of set up the context of that we sort of set up the context of that we sort of set up the context of that with a little personal stuff which i with a little personal stuff which i with a little personal stuff which i don't like to do don't like to do don't like to do uh and i told ben i said uh who cares uh and i told ben i said uh who cares uh and i told ben i said uh who cares it's not very interesting and it's not very interesting and it's not very interesting and you know it's just me talking about my you know it's just me talking about my you know it's just me talking about my life and ben said well it's not very life and ben said well it's not very life and ben said well it's not very interesting whose fault is that interesting whose fault is that interesting whose fault is that that's a hard one to have a pithy that's a hard one to have a pithy that's a hard one to have a pithy comeback for isn't it comeback for isn't it comeback for isn't it but the reason he brought it up is he but the reason he brought it up is he but the reason he brought it up is he said you know you talk about war games said you know you talk about war games said you know you talk about war games on the program all the time you're going on the program all the time you're going on the program all the time you're going to be talking about something like that

to be talking about something like that to be talking about something like that later in the program why don't you talk later in the program why don't you talk later in the program why don't you talk about about about you know war games as you knew them kind you know war games as you knew them kind you know war games as you knew them kind of a war games of a war games of a war games now if this sounds like grandpa carlin now if this sounds like grandpa carlin now if this sounds like grandpa carlin on the front porch in the rocking chair on the front porch in the rocking chair on the front porch in the rocking chair whittling telling stories to the whittling telling stories to the whittling telling stories to the youngins youngins youngins and falling asleep about every 10 and falling asleep about every 10 and falling asleep about every 10 minutes i apologize minutes i apologize minutes i apologize the good old days right but um it might the good old days right but um it might the good old days right but um it might be worth just just bringing it up be worth just just bringing it up be worth just just bringing it up because there's little things about because there's little things about because there's little things about wargaming that your general wargaming that your general wargaming that your general member of the general public doesn't member of the general public doesn't member of the general public doesn't know i mean one of the really seminal know i mean one of the really seminal know i mean one of the really seminal early early early rule sets for um the war gaming genre rule sets for um the war gaming genre rule sets for um the war gaming genre that that that that people play when i was growing up that people play when i was growing up that people play when i was growing up was written by h.g was written by h.g was written by h.g wells the war of the worlds author wells the war of the worlds author wells the war of the worlds author another thing a lot of people don't know another thing a lot of people don't know another thing a lot of people don't know is wells actually wrote a is wells actually wrote a is wells actually wrote a i think i know the modern version is in i think i know the modern version is in i think i know the modern version is in two volumes i don't remember if the two volumes i don't remember if the two volumes i don't remember if the original was i don't know if i've ever original was i don't know if i've ever original was i don't know if i've ever seen the original seen the original seen the original he wrote a history of the world too from he wrote a history of the world too from he wrote a history of the world too from like caveman times to like caveman times to like caveman times to his era which um no matter how it turns his era which um no matter how it turns his era which um no matter how it turns out think about what a task you out think about what a task you out think about what a task you set yourself there right my two volume set yourself there right my two volume set yourself there right my two volume history of everything that's ever history of everything that's ever history of everything that's ever happened happened happened you know how many podcasts we would have you know how many podcasts we would have you know how many podcasts we would have in that podcast series in that podcast series in that podcast series given my long-windedness but robert given my long-windedness but robert given my long-windedness but robert lewis stevenson i guess had an early set lewis stevenson i guess had an early set lewis stevenson i guess had an early set of rules of rules of rules um if you don't know the long history of um if you don't know the long history of um if you don't know the long history of war games some of it has to be sort of war games some of it has to be sort of war games some of it has to be sort of imagined because you can kind of infer imagined because you can kind of infer imagined because you can kind of infer that that general staffs from militaries that that general staffs from militaries that that general staffs from militaries you know the long you know the long you know the long lost past i mean the assyrians had a lost past i mean the assyrians had a lost past i mean the assyrians had a general staff right just like general staff right just like general staff right just like uh the german army had a general staff uh the german army had a general staff uh the german army had a general staff in the second world war with all the in the second world war with all the in the second world war with all the generals who would you know go over

generals who would you know go over generals who would you know go over they would war game by then certainly they would war game by then certainly they would war game by then certainly and one can imagine and one can imagine and one can imagine the great general staffs of all time the great general staffs of all time the great general staffs of all time trying to figure out trying to figure out trying to figure out you know tactics and strategy maybe a you know tactics and strategy maybe a you know tactics and strategy maybe a little sand pit maybe on a map or what little sand pit maybe on a map or what little sand pit maybe on a map or what passed for a map passed for a map passed for a map then there are games that people argue then there are games that people argue then there are games that people argue about whether or not they should be about whether or not they should be about whether or not they should be classified as war games games like chess classified as war games games like chess classified as war games games like chess which is of course very old which is of course very old which is of course very old the chinese game of go which is also the chinese game of go which is also the chinese game of go which is also very old very old very old but without different battlefields and but without different battlefields and but without different battlefields and different terrain and random factors and different terrain and random factors and different terrain and random factors and all these kinds of things people all these kinds of things people all these kinds of things people sometimes argue although sometimes argue although sometimes argue although they're usually lumped in with the war they're usually lumped in with the war they're usually lumped in with the war general wargaming sort of uh general wargaming sort of uh general wargaming sort of uh genre uh i was reading something just genre uh i was reading something just genre uh i was reading something just for this for this for this discussion just now and it was talking discussion just now and it was talking discussion just now and it was talking about the german version of this because about the german version of this because about the german version of this because the modern history is always thought to the modern history is always thought to the modern history is always thought to begin people will talk about begin people will talk about begin people will talk about kriegspila the the german name for war kriegspila the the german name for war kriegspila the the german name for war game game game because in the late 19th century they because in the late 19th century they because in the late 19th century they were clearly were clearly were clearly playing a sort of mock battle setting up playing a sort of mock battle setting up playing a sort of mock battle setting up battles that they were planning to have battles that they were planning to have battles that they were planning to have and then working out all sorts of and then working out all sorts of and then working out all sorts of contingencies and approaches and trying contingencies and approaches and trying contingencies and approaches and trying stuff out stuff out stuff out um and i read and i hadn't heard this um and i read and i hadn't heard this um and i read and i hadn't heard this before maybe it's not true how about before maybe it's not true how about before maybe it's not true how about that for a disclaimer that for a disclaimer that for a disclaimer but that the french there was an element but that the french there was an element but that the french there was an element in the uh in france that in the uh in france that in the uh in france that that blamed that as a as a factor that that blamed that as a as a factor that that blamed that as a as a factor that led to their loss in the franco-prussian led to their loss in the franco-prussian led to their loss in the franco-prussian war war war i would think maybe railroad timetables i would think maybe railroad timetables i would think maybe railroad timetables and mobilization and all that might have and mobilization and all that might have and mobilization and all that might have had more to do with it but had more to do with it but had more to do with it but but it was an interesting thing to read but it was an interesting thing to read but it was an interesting thing to read right the uh secret weapon of the 19th right the uh secret weapon of the 19th right the uh secret weapon of the 19th century century century you know prussians or early german state

you know prussians or early german state you know prussians or early german state wargaming wargaming wargaming i first was um exposed to this i guess i first was um exposed to this i guess i first was um exposed to this i guess you could say my mom was doing some work you could say my mom was doing some work you could say my mom was doing some work and we had to live and we had to live and we had to live had to live i mean i have great memories had to live i mean i have great memories had to live i mean i have great memories of this but i mean i had to live in of this but i mean i had to live in of this but i mean i had to live in london for several months london for several months london for several months and i had my toy soldiers with me and i had my toy soldiers with me and i had my toy soldiers with me because i'm about because i'm about because i'm about what 1972 so i'm gonna be six or seven what 1972 so i'm gonna be six or seven what 1972 so i'm gonna be six or seven um um um always had the toy soldiers because for always had the toy soldiers because for always had the toy soldiers because for some reason from birth i'm into that some reason from birth i'm into that some reason from birth i'm into that stuff and i have no stuff and i have no stuff and i have no explanation for why that might be my explanation for why that might be my explanation for why that might be my mother's been trying to figure that out mother's been trying to figure that out mother's been trying to figure that out forever and her theories forever and her theories forever and her theories border on the fantastic right bermuda border on the fantastic right bermuda border on the fantastic right bermuda triangle type stuff triangle type stuff triangle type stuff but i always had the toy soldiers with but i always had the toy soldiers with but i always had the toy soldiers with me and me and me and in london i remember having them out on in london i remember having them out on in london i remember having them out on the floor one day the floor one day the floor one day and a guy arrived he may have been the and a guy arrived he may have been the and a guy arrived he may have been the son of one of my mom's guests or son of one of my mom's guests or son of one of my mom's guests or something college student age something college student age something college student age and he'd brought his soldiers because my and he'd brought his soldiers because my and he'd brought his soldiers because my mom had said oh you know dan's really mom had said oh you know dan's really mom had said oh you know dan's really into soldiers into soldiers into soldiers and so he brought his own went up to see and so he brought his own went up to see and so he brought his own went up to see me playing with mine me playing with mine me playing with mine and uh and sat down and said you know and uh and sat down and said you know and uh and sat down and said you know basically sat down showed me his basically sat down showed me his basically sat down showed me his soldiers and i was blown away because soldiers and i was blown away because soldiers and i was blown away because you know the difference between what you you know the difference between what you you know the difference between what you could have bought in a store could have bought in a store could have bought in a store although what they sold in the store in although what they sold in the store in although what they sold in the store in those days was pretty damn fantastic those days was pretty damn fantastic those days was pretty damn fantastic uh you didn't paint them yourself they uh you didn't paint them yourself they uh you didn't paint them yourself they were called um britons were called um britons were called um britons uh britain's limited i think uh and they uh britain's limited i think uh and they uh britain's limited i think uh and they were so fantastic and i looked them up were so fantastic and i looked them up were so fantastic and i looked them up and they still make them today they're and they still make them today they're and they still make them today they're hand-painted hand-painted hand-painted in in those days he had basically a in in those days he had basically a in in those days he had basically a whole army of hundreds of these things whole army of hundreds of these things whole army of hundreds of these things each single figure today sells for like each single figure today sells for like each single figure today sells for like 40 40 40 u.s and you just sit there and go holy u.s and you just sit there and go holy u.s and you just sit there and go holy cow you got to be elon musk to have an

cow you got to be elon musk to have an cow you got to be elon musk to have an army of these things today army of these things today army of these things today 54 millimeters tall um but 54 millimeters tall um but 54 millimeters tall um but he pulls out these these troops and then he pulls out these these troops and then he pulls out these these troops and then he pulls out rules he pulls out rules he pulls out rules and that was the part i'd never seen and that was the part i'd never seen and that was the part i'd never seen that's the part that makes it a war game that's the part that makes it a war game that's the part that makes it a war game right otherwise you're playing toy right otherwise you're playing toy right otherwise you're playing toy soldiers soldiers soldiers and he sat down he started talking to and he sat down he started talking to and he sat down he started talking to six or seven year old version of me and six or seven year old version of me and six or seven year old version of me and i didn't like this i didn't like this i didn't like this one bit i can tell you right now because one bit i can tell you right now because one bit i can tell you right now because for me it was all imagination and for me it was all imagination and for me it was all imagination and anything i wanted and anything i wanted and anything i wanted and and i didn't have to worry about and i didn't have to worry about and i didn't have to worry about anything and this guy was basically anything and this guy was basically anything and this guy was basically giving me stuff like giving me stuff like giving me stuff like math to do and lots of calculations and math to do and lots of calculations and math to do and lots of calculations and figuring out and i mean just it it figuring out and i mean just it it figuring out and i mean just it it ruined the spontaneity and the ruined the spontaneity and the ruined the spontaneity and the creativity of it all for me creativity of it all for me creativity of it all for me but as you get older you see the value but as you get older you see the value but as you get older you see the value in something like that right so in something like that right so in something like that right so fast forward to right around the era fast forward to right around the era fast forward to right around the era where where where dungeons and dragons started so about dungeons and dragons started so about dungeons and dragons started so about 1976 i'm going 1976 i'm going 1976 i'm going from memory here uh a rule set comes out from memory here uh a rule set comes out from memory here uh a rule set comes out called chain mail chain mail actually called chain mail chain mail actually called chain mail chain mail actually came out came out came out in the very early 70s i want to say like in the very early 70s i want to say like in the very early 70s i want to say like 1971 1971 1971 um and i discovered all this stuff later um and i discovered all this stuff later um and i discovered all this stuff later so when i say 1976 that's when i got so when i say 1976 that's when i got so when i say 1976 that's when i got into it into it into it it happened to be written by two people it happened to be written by two people it happened to be written by two people uh one of whom uh one of whom uh one of whom was gary guy jacks who's probably the was gary guy jacks who's probably the was gary guy jacks who's probably the lead figure in dungeons and dragons i lead figure in dungeons and dragons i lead figure in dungeons and dragons i think of other guys like think of other guys like think of other guys like dave arneson and whatnot but gary guy dave arneson and whatnot but gary guy dave arneson and whatnot but gary guy jacks is sort of the lead d and d jacks is sort of the lead d and d jacks is sort of the lead d and d guy and dungeons and dragons i think guy and dungeons and dragons i think guy and dungeons and dragons i think came out in 1974.

came out in 1974. came out in 1974. again i discovered all this stuff in again i discovered all this stuff in again i discovered all this stuff in about 1976. about 1976. about 1976. now in the early dungeons and dragons now in the early dungeons and dragons now in the early dungeons and dragons rule sets rule sets rule sets they didn't even tell you how to do they didn't even tell you how to do they didn't even tell you how to do certain things like certain things like certain things like how you would handle you know groups of how you would handle you know groups of how you would handle you know groups of people fighting other groups of people people fighting other groups of people people fighting other groups of people if there were if there were if there were large numbers they would simply refer large numbers they would simply refer large numbers they would simply refer you in the rule set you in the rule set you in the rule set to chain mail so you had to go pick up to chain mail so you had to go pick up to chain mail so you had to go pick up chain mail if you wanted to do those chain mail if you wanted to do those chain mail if you wanted to do those sorts of calculations sorts of calculations sorts of calculations so i went out and got chain mail which so i went out and got chain mail which so i went out and got chain mail which was my first exposure since london in was my first exposure since london in was my first exposure since london in the early 1970s the early 1970s the early 1970s to war games rules right meant to be to war games rules right meant to be to war games rules right meant to be played with miniature figures played with miniature figures played with miniature figures when i was older than and could when i was older than and could when i was older than and could appreciate and understand and all this appreciate and understand and all this appreciate and understand and all this sort of stuff and so started sort of stuff and so started sort of stuff and so started experimenting with that so then what you experimenting with that so then what you experimenting with that so then what you do do do is you realize oh i need to build an is you realize oh i need to build an is you realize oh i need to build an army which was not that easy to do army which was not that easy to do army which was not that easy to do in the middle 1970s you got to go find a in the middle 1970s you got to go find a in the middle 1970s you got to go find a place that sells this stuff and the place that sells this stuff and the place that sells this stuff and the funny thing about it is this was a place funny thing about it is this was a place funny thing about it is this was a place i believe i believe i believe that britain was way ahead of the united that britain was way ahead of the united that britain was way ahead of the united states it was hard in the united states states it was hard in the united states states it was hard in the united states there was a guy named jack scrooby who's there was a guy named jack scrooby who's there was a guy named jack scrooby who's famous famous famous in american war game circles who became in american war game circles who became in american war game circles who became one of these early people one of these early people one of these early people that started to just crank out figures that started to just crank out figures that started to just crank out figures for people not because he wanted to make for people not because he wanted to make for people not because he wanted to make a lot of money but because everybody a lot of money but because everybody a lot of money but because everybody needed figures there was not going to be needed figures there was not going to be needed figures there was not going to be a hobby right um but but a hobby right um but but a hobby right um but but you would gravitate towards places and you would gravitate towards places and you would gravitate towards places and and i don't know what you would do if and i don't know what you would do if and i don't know what you would do if you lived in some small town but you lived in some small town but you lived in some small town but this is like new york and seattle san this is like new york and seattle san this is like new york and seattle san francisco los angeles boston places francisco los angeles boston places francisco los angeles boston places where these where these where these they're almost like clubs the people

they're almost like clubs the people they're almost like clubs the people that ran these stores could not have that ran these stores could not have that ran these stores could not have been in it been in it been in it to get rich but not only would they sell to get rich but not only would they sell to get rich but not only would they sell the materials the materials the materials oftentimes they would have big tables in oftentimes they would have big tables in oftentimes they would have big tables in the back where people could come the back where people could come the back where people could come and fight battles and have i mean it and fight battles and have i mean it and fight battles and have i mean it became these were little communities i became these were little communities i became these were little communities i mean if you were where i was from in the mean if you were where i was from in the mean if you were where i was from in the san fernando valley san fernando valley san fernando valley 1970s 1980s you would have remembered 1970s 1980s you would have remembered 1970s 1980s you would have remembered places like places like places like competitors castle with skip gardella competitors castle with skip gardella competitors castle with skip gardella and i wonder what skip's doing today and i wonder what skip's doing today and i wonder what skip's doing today hope he's okay um the last grenadier les hope he's okay um the last grenadier les hope he's okay um the last grenadier les miserables every community of large size miserables every community of large size miserables every community of large size had these places had these places had these places and you didn't do a lot of and you didn't do a lot of and you didn't do a lot of cross-pollinating i mean i felt like it cross-pollinating i mean i felt like it cross-pollinating i mean i felt like it was almost a school or a fraternity or was almost a school or a fraternity or was almost a school or a fraternity or something like that something like that something like that where you know you had your place and where you know you had your place and where you know you had your place and then you meet up with all these other then you meet up with all these other then you meet up with all these other people at some convention down by the people at some convention down by the people at some convention down by the airport airport airport you know a couple of times a year have you know a couple of times a year have you know a couple of times a year have big battles competitions the thing about war gaming with the thing about war gaming with miniature figures which is how i did it miniature figures which is how i did it miniature figures which is how i did it that's different from what we have today that's different from what we have today that's different from what we have today is there was a lot of elements to the is there was a lot of elements to the is there was a lot of elements to the hobby hobby hobby that you don't need with a computer game that you don't need with a computer game that you don't need with a computer game but that i find that i like more than i but that i find that i like more than i but that i find that i like more than i thought i did i mean the painting of the thought i did i mean the painting of the thought i did i mean the painting of the figures figures figures there's a railroad you know the model there's a railroad you know the model there's a railroad you know the model railroad side of this too where people railroad side of this too where people railroad side of this too where people are building terrain are building terrain are building terrain and laying out battlefields and i mean and laying out battlefields and i mean and laying out battlefields and i mean there's many different there's many different there's many different creative elements involved in this creative elements involved in this creative elements involved in this before you even get to before you even get to before you even get to fighting it all out now fighting it all fighting it all out now fighting it all fighting it all out now fighting it all out i have to say i don't miss out i have to say i don't miss out i have to say i don't miss that stuff at all let the computer that stuff at all let the computer that stuff at all let the computer handle the calculations handle the calculations handle the calculations let it let it automatically just take let it let it automatically just take let it let it automatically just take away away away what was a huge aspect of wargaming and

what was a huge aspect of wargaming and what was a huge aspect of wargaming and miniatures miniatures miniatures back in the day which is arguing back in the day which is arguing back in the day which is arguing fighting over what a rule interpretation fighting over what a rule interpretation fighting over what a rule interpretation meant or did you really move this way or meant or did you really move this way or meant or did you really move this way or is this unit going to hit the forest and is this unit going to hit the forest and is this unit going to hit the forest and be disordered be disordered be disordered i mean nobody really liked that unless i mean nobody really liked that unless i mean nobody really liked that unless you were what was you were what was you were what was what was known as a rules lawyer where what was known as a rules lawyer where what was known as a rules lawyer where part of the way you won was not your part of the way you won was not your part of the way you won was not your great tactical great tactical great tactical expertise right and you you out think expertise right and you you out think expertise right and you you out think the other guy the other guy the other guy no you just have these little rule no you just have these little rule no you just have these little rule things that you noticed or maybe you things that you noticed or maybe you things that you noticed or maybe you know it backwards or forwards or you know it backwards or forwards or you know it backwards or forwards or you have ways of basically have ways of basically have ways of basically arguing that you should get some sort of arguing that you should get some sort of arguing that you should get some sort of benefit that ends up leading to benefit that ends up leading to benefit that ends up leading to well if not a victory for the rules well if not a victory for the rules well if not a victory for the rules lawyer then a less drastic defeat i pulled out a bunch of my old books on i pulled out a bunch of my old books on the hobby um the hobby um the hobby um and some of them date from before my era and some of them date from before my era and some of them date from before my era i went back and picked up some classics i went back and picked up some classics i went back and picked up some classics by people like donald featherstone joseph morshauser lots of stuff from joseph morshauser lots of stuff from phil barker even in the modern era phil barker even in the modern era phil barker even in the modern era phil's still involved i'm not sure but i phil's still involved i'm not sure but i phil's still involved i'm not sure but i think he is think he is think he is uh tony bath people like that were the uh tony bath people like that were the uh tony bath people like that were the classics uh on the other side of the classics uh on the other side of the classics uh on the other side of the pond pond pond and it was so clubby even then that when and it was so clubby even then that when and it was so clubby even then that when you would buy a set of rules you would buy a set of rules you would buy a set of rules in the back it would it would be like in the back it would it would be like in the back it would it would be like hey you know if you want to get a hold hey you know if you want to get a hold hey you know if you want to get a hold of us of us of us uh here's our address you can call us uh here's our address you can call us uh here's our address you can call us this at this hour but we might be gone this at this hour but we might be gone this at this hour but we might be gone during i mean it was during i mean it was during i mean it was it was so informal and clubbish that you it was so informal and clubbish that you it was so informal and clubbish that you felt like the guys that wrote this were felt like the guys that wrote this were felt like the guys that wrote this were just just just you know your buddy down the street but you know your buddy down the street but you know your buddy down the street but that's how insular and small that's how insular and small that's how insular and small some of these things were if you think some of these things were if you think some of these things were if you think about it there's quite an entry

about it there's quite an entry about it there's quite an entry uh level amount of stuff that's required uh level amount of stuff that's required uh level amount of stuff that's required to get into it this to get into it this to get into it this there's a there's a barrier right i mean there's a there's a barrier right i mean there's a there's a barrier right i mean this is not easy stuff to do the time this is not easy stuff to do the time this is not easy stuff to do the time commitment commitment commitment alone um is onerous you have to be a bit alone um is onerous you have to be a bit alone um is onerous you have to be a bit of a fanatic of a fanatic of a fanatic but i certainly was one of those people but i certainly was one of those people but i certainly was one of those people and so when computer games first showed and so when computer games first showed and so when computer games first showed up up up i was so excited because i mean this you i was so excited because i mean this you i was so excited because i mean this you didn't need an opponent you didn't need didn't need an opponent you didn't need didn't need an opponent you didn't need to spend all day if you didn't have a to spend all day if you didn't have a to spend all day if you didn't have a whole day whole day whole day there were a lot of things that were there were a lot of things that were there were a lot of things that were very attractive about it and even in the very attractive about it and even in the very attractive about it and even in the very early games you could see without very early games you could see without very early games you could see without being any kind of a technology expert being any kind of a technology expert being any kind of a technology expert oh my god give this 10 years it's going oh my god give this 10 years it's going oh my god give this 10 years it's going to be in fabulously interesting places to be in fabulously interesting places to be in fabulously interesting places now what's funny about now what's funny about now what's funny about me is the game that i play them the most me is the game that i play them the most me is the game that i play them the most these days these days these days is a game that simply tries to replicate is a game that simply tries to replicate is a game that simply tries to replicate the miniatures version of the games that the miniatures version of the games that the miniatures version of the games that i played in the 1970s i played in the 1970s i played in the 1970s on a computer screen i mean graphically on a computer screen i mean graphically on a computer screen i mean graphically speaking it's stone age speaking it's stone age speaking it's stone age and everything moves just i mean it's and everything moves just i mean it's and everything moves just i mean it's hilarious because hilarious because hilarious because instead of having there are more modern instead of having there are more modern instead of having there are more modern games where everyone moves sort of like games where everyone moves sort of like games where everyone moves sort of like individually and takes advantage of all individually and takes advantage of all individually and takes advantage of all the computers power and the computers power and the computers power and and yet something in my you know maybe and yet something in my you know maybe and yet something in my you know maybe this is an elderly thing this is an elderly thing this is an elderly thing you know when you get nostalgic and you know when you get nostalgic and you know when you get nostalgic and you'd rather have the computer game you'd rather have the computer game you'd rather have the computer game play like pong for you because you grew play like pong for you because you grew play like pong for you because you grew up with pong it up with pong it up with pong it brings back memories one thing i should brings back memories one thing i should brings back memories one thing i should mention mention mention and i only thought about this in and i only thought about this in and i only thought about this in preparation for this conversation preparation for this conversation preparation for this conversation there was no blood there was no violence there was no blood there was no violence there was no blood there was no violence unless it was between two players unless it was between two players unless it was between two players arguing with each other i mean

arguing with each other i mean arguing with each other i mean these games had miniature figures these games had miniature figures these games had miniature figures whether it was in the pre-gunpowder era whether it was in the pre-gunpowder era whether it was in the pre-gunpowder era which i often played or the second world which i often played or the second world which i often played or the second world war era which i also played war era which i also played war era which i also played and if somebody died when you had and if somebody died when you had and if somebody died when you had casualties casualties casualties you wrote it down on a piece of paper you wrote it down on a piece of paper you wrote it down on a piece of paper you said you know you do the math you you said you know you do the math you you said you know you do the math you come up with your figures you say okay come up with your figures you say okay come up with your figures you say okay you suffered 17 casualties in that you suffered 17 casualties in that you suffered 17 casualties in that charge okay that doesn't even tell you charge okay that doesn't even tell you charge okay that doesn't even tell you how many are wounded versus how many are how many are wounded versus how many are how many are wounded versus how many are dead you write it down on a piece of dead you write it down on a piece of dead you write it down on a piece of paper paper paper every time we got 20 or 25 casualties every time we got 20 or 25 casualties every time we got 20 or 25 casualties you took a miniature figure off you took a miniature figure off you took a miniature figure off that is the extent though of the that is the extent though of the that is the extent though of the connection connection connection between what you're doing and between what you're doing and between what you're doing and the violence that you're basically the violence that you're basically the violence that you're basically abstracting on the ground abstracting on the ground abstracting on the ground that would be there in the real time that would be there in the real time that would be there in the real time situation the second world war games we situation the second world war games we situation the second world war games we used to play it was mostly vehicles used to play it was mostly vehicles used to play it was mostly vehicles a tank would be hit you'd say that tank a tank would be hit you'd say that tank a tank would be hit you'd say that tank is destroyed maybe somebody creative is destroyed maybe somebody creative is destroyed maybe somebody creative puts a little puff of puts a little puff of puts a little puff of black cotton on it to represent smoke black cotton on it to represent smoke black cotton on it to represent smoke and there you go a little bit different though from some a little bit different though from some of the things you see nowadays and that of the things you see nowadays and that of the things you see nowadays and that brings up interesting questions all its brings up interesting questions all its brings up interesting questions all its own right i mean all of these own right i mean all of these own right i mean all of these uh developments just like dungeons and uh developments just like dungeons and uh developments just like dungeons and dragons back in the old days by the way dragons back in the old days by the way dragons back in the old days by the way people forget how controversial that was people forget how controversial that was people forget how controversial that was for a time for a time for a time always come with societal sort of always come with societal sort of always come with societal sort of quandaries that one can talk about the quandaries that one can talk about the quandaries that one can talk about the difference between the violence involved difference between the violence involved difference between the violence involved in the war gaming i grew up with and in the war gaming i grew up with and in the war gaming i grew up with and some of the games today is significant we'll talk a little about that in the we'll talk a little about that in the upcoming conversation upcoming conversation upcoming conversation in any case i have had a long history in any case i have had a long history in any case i have had a long history um with these sorts of games i've never

um with these sorts of games i've never um with these sorts of games i've never been the sort of guy been the sort of guy been the sort of guy i think in my head whatever bermuda i think in my head whatever bermuda i think in my head whatever bermuda triangle my mother thinks i sprang from triangle my mother thinks i sprang from triangle my mother thinks i sprang from interested in this stuff from birth i interested in this stuff from birth i interested in this stuff from birth i always wanted to to be at like the always wanted to to be at like the always wanted to to be at like the napoleon level of things napoleon level of things napoleon level of things you know in control of of the you know in control of of the you know in control of of the battlefield or like hearts of iron the battlefield or like hearts of iron the battlefield or like hearts of iron the hearts of iron franchise basically makes hearts of iron franchise basically makes hearts of iron franchise basically makes you you you the head of the government and you get the head of the government and you get the head of the government and you get to decide what sort of scientific to decide what sort of scientific to decide what sort of scientific experiments experiments experiments you want to uh take part in to develop you want to uh take part in to develop you want to uh take part in to develop you know things along i mean it's you know things along i mean it's you know things along i mean it's you get to be like a demigod i like you get to be like a demigod i like you get to be like a demigod i like those levels you know surprise surprise those levels you know surprise surprise those levels you know surprise surprise rather than the sergeant york um you rather than the sergeant york um you rather than the sergeant york um you know on the battlefield with the squad know on the battlefield with the squad know on the battlefield with the squad sort of level sort of level sort of level but the guest that i'm going to speak to but the guest that i'm going to speak to but the guest that i'm going to speak to in just a minute um maximilian ria in just a minute um maximilian ria in just a minute um maximilian ria he's developed the kind of game where he's developed the kind of game where he's developed the kind of game where when i was playing the pong when i was playing the pong when i was playing the pong version of war games on the very early version of war games on the very early version of war games on the very early personal computers personal computers personal computers you could see in your mind's eye coming you could see in your mind's eye coming you could see in your mind's eye coming and it's fascinating the game in and it's fascinating the game in and it's fascinating the game in question is called question is called question is called hell let loose but it's part of a genre hell let loose but it's part of a genre hell let loose but it's part of a genre that many of you will have a lot of that many of you will have a lot of that many of you will have a lot of experience with experience with experience with and there are all sorts of interesting and there are all sorts of interesting and there are all sorts of interesting questions that these games questions that these games questions that these games sort of prompt and have connected to sort of prompt and have connected to sort of prompt and have connected to them and those are the sorts of things them and those are the sorts of things them and those are the sorts of things we're going to talk about we're going to talk about we're going to talk about right now with me right now is maximilian rhea he with me right now is maximilian rhea he is one of the founders is one of the founders is one of the founders and also the project director and art and also the project director and art and also the project director and art director over at black matter studios director over at black matter studios director over at black matter studios the developers of hell let loose the developers of hell let loose the developers of hell let loose tell me a little bit about your game tell me a little bit about your game tell me a little bit about your game here so that the public understands here so that the public understands here so that the public understands um just how far things have gone in um just how far things have gone in um just how far things have gone in terms of development in the wargaming terms of development in the wargaming terms of development in the wargaming space

space space sure thing so um our game hell at loose sure thing so um our game hell at loose sure thing so um our game hell at loose is is is pits 50 um players versus 50 other human pits 50 um players versus 50 other human pits 50 um players versus 50 other human players so players so players so 100 um human players in total 100 um human players in total 100 um human players in total against each other in combat on against each other in combat on against each other in combat on a world war ii battlefield that was sort a world war ii battlefield that was sort a world war ii battlefield that was sort of recreated from lots of of recreated from lots of of recreated from lots of satellite imagery um to to map out the satellite imagery um to to map out the satellite imagery um to to map out the landscape and then landscape and then landscape and then copious amounts of reference photography copious amounts of reference photography copious amounts of reference photography uh and aerial photography uh and aerial photography uh and aerial photography and basically these two forces so and basically these two forces so and basically these two forces so initially it's initially it's initially it's us forces versus german forces us forces versus german forces us forces versus german forces fight over this piece of land much like fight over this piece of land much like fight over this piece of land much like they did in world war ii they did in world war ii they did in world war ii using the iconic weaponry of the day and using the iconic weaponry of the day and using the iconic weaponry of the day and the vehicles of the day the vehicles of the day the vehicles of the day and we've kind of tried to match that as and we've kind of tried to match that as and we've kind of tried to match that as much as possible to the historical much as possible to the historical much as possible to the historical record with some flat flex where we need record with some flat flex where we need record with some flat flex where we need it just due to the nature of games as a it just due to the nature of games as a it just due to the nature of games as a medium medium medium um but that's kind of where we're at now um but that's kind of where we're at now um but that's kind of where we're at now in so much as in so much as in so much as video games are concerned um as a video games are concerned um as a video games are concerned um as a digital art form digital art form digital art form so in terms of what people's so in terms of what people's so in terms of what people's expectations are right so everything is expectations are right so everything is expectations are right so everything is built on top of what came before built on top of what came before built on top of what came before um is this a new level because you know um is this a new level because you know um is this a new level because you know you had sent me a screenshot you had sent me a screenshot you had sent me a screenshot of a particular defensive position of a particular defensive position of a particular defensive position pavlov's house pavlov's house pavlov's house at the battle of stalingrad and were at the battle of stalingrad and were at the battle of stalingrad and were talking to me about how talking to me about how talking to me about how until you actually saw it portrayed and until you actually saw it portrayed and until you actually saw it portrayed and rendered in a form that made it visual rendered in a form that made it visual rendered in a form that made it visual and three-dimensional and three-dimensional and three-dimensional you didn't even realize how um how tough you didn't even realize how um how tough you didn't even realize how um how tough a position this was

a position this was a position this was i can remember first person shooter i can remember first person shooter i can remember first person shooter games i didn't play them but i remember games i didn't play them but i remember games i didn't play them but i remember the graphics and stuff way back in the the graphics and stuff way back in the the graphics and stuff way back in the mid 1990s mid 1990s mid 1990s how much of a step up is this in terms how much of a step up is this in terms how much of a step up is this in terms of of of a faithful rendering of what people uh a faithful rendering of what people uh a faithful rendering of what people uh at the time would have seen in that in at the time would have seen in that in at the time would have seen in that in that place that place that place and in that sphere so i think something and in that sphere so i think something and in that sphere so i think something that um that um that um kind of modern computing power is kind of modern computing power is kind of modern computing power is enabling us to do enabling us to do enabling us to do um is i mean first of all video games um is i mean first of all video games um is i mean first of all video games are always are always are always representative they're always symbolic representative they're always symbolic representative they're always symbolic of obviously something that's happening of obviously something that's happening of obviously something that's happening um we can never quite capture the full um we can never quite capture the full um we can never quite capture the full historical reality historical reality historical reality of any conflict i mean mainly because it of any conflict i mean mainly because it of any conflict i mean mainly because it might not be might not be might not be something that players would be willing something that players would be willing something that players would be willing to put their time into playing you know to put their time into playing you know to put their time into playing you know a lot of a lot of a lot of uh combat as we as we both know uh combat as we as we both know uh combat as we as we both know um was huge amounts of waiting around or um was huge amounts of waiting around or um was huge amounts of waiting around or doing very very menial difficult tasks doing very very menial difficult tasks doing very very menial difficult tasks um however where we are able to um however where we are able to um however where we are able to symbolize things what what modern symbolize things what what modern symbolize things what what modern computing power lets us do is computing power lets us do is computing power lets us do is um represent them at a larger scale um represent them at a larger scale um represent them at a larger scale so for instance as you said dan pavlov's so for instance as you said dan pavlov's so for instance as you said dan pavlov's house house house this famous um soviet apartment building this famous um soviet apartment building this famous um soviet apartment building in stalingrad in stalingrad in stalingrad um previously when it's been portrayed um previously when it's been portrayed um previously when it's been portrayed in games it's been in games it's been in games it's been being portrayed at a compressed size um being portrayed at a compressed size um being portrayed at a compressed size um almost everything at half or a third almost everything at half or a third almost everything at half or a third scale scale scale and something that we've done um in our and something that we've done um in our and something that we've done um in our particular game is just with particular game is just with particular game is just with modern computing power has enabled us to modern computing power has enabled us to modern computing power has enabled us to render this at the actual render this at the actual render this at the actual real scale um that it is in real life real scale um that it is in real life real scale um that it is in real life including sort of measurements for the including sort of measurements for the including sort of measurements for the apartment building and the square so apartment building and the square so apartment building and the square so i think what modern computing power is

i think what modern computing power is i think what modern computing power is enabling us to do enabling us to do enabling us to do is increase the size of our is increase the size of our is increase the size of our representation um representation um representation um of these uh historic conflicts and of these uh historic conflicts and of these uh historic conflicts and obviously obviously obviously um something else that's quite novel and um something else that's quite novel and um something else that's quite novel and is becoming you know is growing by is becoming you know is growing by is becoming you know is growing by by really the year is the player count by really the year is the player count by really the year is the player count modern networking power the amount of modern networking power the amount of modern networking power the amount of information you can send over the information you can send over the information you can send over the internet internet internet is increasing as players get better is increasing as players get better is increasing as players get better access access access um to better internet um and the systems um to better internet um and the systems um to better internet um and the systems also become more sophisticated also become more sophisticated also become more sophisticated and so something we were quite quick on and so something we were quite quick on and so something we were quite quick on was doing a hundred players now that was doing a hundred players now that was doing a hundred players now that doesn't seem like a lot of players a lot doesn't seem like a lot of players a lot doesn't seem like a lot of players a lot of soldiers on a battlefield and it of soldiers on a battlefield and it of soldiers on a battlefield and it isn't isn't isn't um but it's a step up from 64 and 64 was um but it's a step up from 64 and 64 was um but it's a step up from 64 and 64 was a step up from 32 a step up from 32 a step up from 32 and 32 is a step up from 16 and 16 was and 32 is a step up from 16 and 16 was and 32 is a step up from 16 and 16 was obviously a step up from from only being obviously a step up from from only being obviously a step up from from only being single player that is single player that is single player that is um not playing with other players around um not playing with other players around um not playing with other players around the world um and so the world um and so the world um and so what we're kind of looking into the what we're kind of looking into the what we're kind of looking into the future at is um future at is um future at is um the scale just getting bigger and bigger the scale just getting bigger and bigger the scale just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and obviously then and bigger and bigger and obviously then and bigger and bigger and obviously then um um um the mind starts to wander about uh the mind starts to wander about uh the mind starts to wander about uh how big could you go and what would that how big could you go and what would that how big could you go and what would that representation be like of of representation be like of of representation be like of of you know of these different battles and you know of these different battles and you know of these different battles and and just broader experiences generally and just broader experiences generally and just broader experiences generally so other than the increasing number of so other than the increasing number of so other than the increasing number of players that can be uh uh players that can be uh uh players that can be uh uh incorporated into a game what what sort incorporated into a game what what sort incorporated into a game what what sort of feedback are you getting from users of feedback are you getting from users of feedback are you getting from users in terms of in terms of in terms of what they like and what they'd like to what they like and what they'd like to what they like and what they'd like to see more of in other words when they see more of in other words when they see more of in other words when they give you a wish list for the next give you a wish list for the next give you a wish list for the next version version version what are they asking for i think

what are they asking for i think what are they asking for i think um it's always a mixture it always um it's always a mixture it always um it's always a mixture it always depends on the player depends on the player depends on the player but i think for our title or at least but i think for our title or at least but i think for our title or at least any title trying to capture historical any title trying to capture historical any title trying to capture historical reality reality reality or or what people's idea of historical or or what people's idea of historical or or what people's idea of historical reality is reality is reality is um it's always um to expand it to offer um it's always um to expand it to offer um it's always um to expand it to offer more fronts more battlefields but then more fronts more battlefields but then more fronts more battlefields but then it's obviously also to it's obviously also to it's obviously also to deepen the fidelity and what that can deepen the fidelity and what that can deepen the fidelity and what that can mean is it could mean mean is it could mean mean is it could mean um having realistic flamethrowers that um having realistic flamethrowers that um having realistic flamethrowers that project project project liquid fuel in the same way they did on liquid fuel in the same way they did on liquid fuel in the same way they did on the battlefield or it might mean the battlefield or it might mean the battlefield or it might mean um very very um complex simulations um very very um complex simulations um very very um complex simulations of uh armor penetration um and the way of uh armor penetration um and the way of uh armor penetration um and the way that different rounds and projectiles that different rounds and projectiles that different rounds and projectiles struck different armor platings and struck different armor platings and struck different armor platings and thicknesses thicknesses thicknesses um that's sort of where we're being um that's sort of where we're being um that's sort of where we're being pushed um within our kind of pushed um within our kind of pushed um within our kind of sub-genre of this sort of hardcore sub-genre of this sort of hardcore sub-genre of this sort of hardcore military historical shooter military historical shooter military historical shooter but obviously across gaming um we're but obviously across gaming um we're but obviously across gaming um we're expanding out expanding out expanding out in many many different ways um and in many many different ways um and in many many different ways um and obviously you know obviously you know obviously you know um very exciting and obviously also um very exciting and obviously also um very exciting and obviously also uh with some trepidation as well uh with some trepidation as well uh with some trepidation as well well let's talk about that part of it well let's talk about that part of it well let's talk about that part of it because uh as a guy who's been wargaming because uh as a guy who's been wargaming because uh as a guy who's been wargaming since the early 1970s there's a since the early 1970s there's a since the early 1970s there's a there's an abstraction to the there's an abstraction to the there's an abstraction to the traditional war gaming traditional war gaming traditional war gaming that that sort of does away with the that that sort of does away with the that that sort of does away with the very thing that is the focus of very thing that is the focus of very thing that is the focus of of the fidelity first-person shooter of the fidelity first-person shooter of the fidelity first-person shooter games i mean when i'm playing games i mean when i'm playing games i mean when i'm playing uh a tank battle in the 1970s i might uh a tank battle in the 1970s i might uh a tank battle in the 1970s i might have have have uh 30 or 40 figures representing tanks

uh 30 or 40 figures representing tanks uh 30 or 40 figures representing tanks but there's no real human beings there but there's no real human beings there but there's no real human beings there there's no one burning up there's there's no one burning up there's there's no one burning up there's uh when a tank destroys another tank uh when a tank destroys another tank uh when a tank destroys another tank it's almost as though it's almost as though it's almost as though it's an inanimate object you're playing it's an inanimate object you're playing it's an inanimate object you're playing a form of chess kind of a form of chess kind of a form of chess kind of uh that divorces you from you know it's uh that divorces you from you know it's uh that divorces you from you know it's it's strategy and tactics more than it's strategy and tactics more than it's strategy and tactics more than there's there's any sense of realism it there's there's any sense of realism it there's there's any sense of realism it seems to me that it is both the seems to me that it is both the seems to me that it is both the attraction attraction attraction and also like you said sort of the dicey and also like you said sort of the dicey and also like you said sort of the dicey interesting moral quandary area interesting moral quandary area interesting moral quandary area where the fidelity of the game where the fidelity of the game where the fidelity of the game especially at the ground especially at the ground especially at the ground level creates challenges and listen this level creates challenges and listen this level creates challenges and listen this has nothing to do specifically with your has nothing to do specifically with your has nothing to do specifically with your game i mean this goes game i mean this goes game i mean this goes since first-person shooters started it's since first-person shooters started it's since first-person shooters started it's been a question of been a question of been a question of um how much of this is uh is um how much of this is uh is um how much of this is uh is is all of the fun and adrenaline and is all of the fun and adrenaline and is all of the fun and adrenaline and action action action uh with none of the consequences but uh uh with none of the consequences but uh uh with none of the consequences but uh for example for example for example i i here's the problem i have with this i i here's the problem i have with this i i here's the problem i have with this is and that's that i is and that's that i is and that's that i i don't do this personally so it's hard i don't do this personally so it's hard i don't do this personally so it's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of for me to put myself in the shoes of for me to put myself in the shoes of what people get out of this what people get out of this what people get out of this but this isn't a hugely uh and but this isn't a hugely uh and but this isn't a hugely uh and fabulously fabulously fabulously uh lucrative area of video games people uh lucrative area of video games people uh lucrative area of video games people love doing this whether they're shooting love doing this whether they're shooting love doing this whether they're shooting at zombies or at zombies or at zombies or trolls or or vampires or other people trolls or or vampires or other people trolls or or vampires or other people uh how do you as a designer walk this uh how do you as a designer walk this uh how do you as a designer walk this fine line between something that is fine line between something that is fine line between something that is intended to be intended to be intended to be uh both fun and potentially teach people uh both fun and potentially teach people uh both fun and potentially teach people about history and make them understand about history and make them understand about history and make them understand better better better uh what people were dealing with uh what people were dealing with uh what people were dealing with historically versus historically versus historically versus simply the enjoyment that comes with simply the enjoyment that comes with simply the enjoyment that comes with shooting another shooting another shooting another uh human being in a virtual world and

uh human being in a virtual world and uh human being in a virtual world and watching their head explode watching their head explode watching their head explode uh look i think it's a that's a very con uh look i think it's a that's a very con uh look i think it's a that's a very con sorry they're starting to make the sorry they're starting to make the sorry they're starting to make the question so damn long no no no i know question so damn long no no no i know question so damn long no no no i know and i think it's a fantastic question and i think it's a fantastic question and i think it's a fantastic question and i think it needs you know and and in and i think it needs you know and and in and i think it needs you know and and in return it needs a return it needs a return it needs a relatively detailed answer and i think relatively detailed answer and i think relatively detailed answer and i think look i think for better or worse look i think for better or worse look i think for better or worse um what we're doing with video games is um what we're doing with video games is um what we're doing with video games is is largely what um we've done with is largely what um we've done with is largely what um we've done with wargaming in so much as wargaming in so much as wargaming in so much as um as i sort of touched on we know that um as i sort of touched on we know that um as i sort of touched on we know that everything is representative everything everything is representative everything everything is representative everything is symbolic is symbolic is symbolic um now obviously we are getting far um now obviously we are getting far um now obviously we are getting far closer closer closer um within our symbolism in so much as um within our symbolism in so much as um within our symbolism in so much as within our game uh for instance within our game uh for instance within our game uh for instance and many other games obviously first and many other games obviously first and many other games obviously first person shooters the entire person shooters the entire person shooters the entire um game loop which is sort of what we um game loop which is sort of what we um game loop which is sort of what we call call call the um the experience that you're the um the experience that you're the um the experience that you're repeating in the game over and over and repeating in the game over and over and repeating in the game over and over and over again so sort of dribbling the ball over again so sort of dribbling the ball over again so sort of dribbling the ball and putting it in the goal and and putting it in the goal and and putting it in the goal and in football and in soccer um would be in football and in soccer um would be in football and in soccer um would be the gameplay loop of soccer the gameplay loop of soccer the gameplay loop of soccer in our gameplay loop you are using a gun in our gameplay loop you are using a gun in our gameplay loop you are using a gun depending on what role you play depending on what role you play depending on what role you play um to shoot another you know another um to shoot another you know another um to shoot another you know another represented human represented human represented human um with the aim of um taking a position um with the aim of um taking a position um with the aim of um taking a position in order to win the game taking it in order to win the game taking it in order to win the game taking it taking a trench network or taking an taking a trench network or taking an taking a trench network or taking an artillery position artillery position artillery position um the thing is though um um the thing is though um um the thing is though um it is representative in so much as all it is representative in so much as all it is representative in so much as all the players within the game know the players within the game know the players within the game know that um failure means that they are to that um failure means that they are to that um failure means that they are to respawn so come back into the game respawn so come back into the game respawn so come back into the game um further back from the front line um um further back from the front line um um further back from the front line um the way that we sort of represent this

the way that we sort of represent this the way that we sort of represent this is that um is that um is that um the player over the course of the game the player over the course of the game the player over the course of the game is representing um is representing um is representing um many many a weight of number um than many many a weight of number um than many many a weight of number um than just just just themselves and fundamentally the kind of themselves and fundamentally the kind of themselves and fundamentally the kind of end game conversations that you have in end game conversations that you have in end game conversations that you have in a game like ours and other first-person a game like ours and other first-person a game like ours and other first-person shooters shooters shooters um doesn't actually touch on the idea of um doesn't actually touch on the idea of um doesn't actually touch on the idea of or the joy of or the joy of or the joy of um the actual shooting another person um the actual shooting another person um the actual shooting another person and what it largely focuses on and i and what it largely focuses on and i and what it largely focuses on and i would almost say would almost say would almost say in the majority is the tactics and the in the majority is the tactics and the in the majority is the tactics and the strategy much like strategy much like strategy much like wargaming in achieving um wargaming in achieving um wargaming in achieving um a success over the enemy in the broader a success over the enemy in the broader a success over the enemy in the broader context of the battle context of the battle context of the battle um so in the same way that with um so in the same way that with um so in the same way that with wargaming you might move a panzer unit wargaming you might move a panzer unit wargaming you might move a panzer unit into position into position into position in a way that your opponent didn't in a way that your opponent didn't in a way that your opponent didn't expect and and you're able to defeat expect and and you're able to defeat expect and and you're able to defeat um the opposing uh formation of the um the opposing uh formation of the um the opposing uh formation of the opposing unit opposing unit opposing unit um we're doing a very very similar thing um we're doing a very very similar thing um we're doing a very very similar thing that's that's sort of the that's that's sort of the that's that's sort of the the hook to the player um on the ground the hook to the player um on the ground the hook to the player um on the ground level in the game so level in the game so level in the game so i think um look i don't want to give a i think um look i don't want to give a i think um look i don't want to give a mealy-mouthed answer but i think that mealy-mouthed answer but i think that mealy-mouthed answer but i think that what the more that i've thought about it what the more that i've thought about it what the more that i've thought about it um the more we um the more we um the more we we're trying to set up these sort of we're trying to set up these sort of we're trying to set up these sort of strategic and tactical questions in the strategic and tactical questions in the strategic and tactical questions in the game game game um and obviously in doing so at an um and obviously in doing so at an um and obviously in doing so at an infantry level um and within an infantry level um and within an infantry level um and within an individualistic way for players who individualistic way for players who individualistic way for players who choose to play on kind of as kind of choose to play on kind of as kind of choose to play on kind of as kind of frontline frontline frontline infantry roles um that does involve infantry roles um that does involve infantry roles um that does involve obviously firing a weapon obviously firing a weapon obviously firing a weapon and firing it in anger at an enemy human

and firing it in anger at an enemy human and firing it in anger at an enemy human target target target um however i would say that it's it um um however i would say that it's it um um however i would say that it's it um is and it sounds funny to say this but a is and it sounds funny to say this but a is and it sounds funny to say this but a very small part very small part very small part of of um and i'd almost argue uh of of um and i'd almost argue uh of of um and i'd almost argue uh um almost an insignificant part of what um almost an insignificant part of what um almost an insignificant part of what makes um this genre tick and i think you makes um this genre tick and i think you makes um this genre tick and i think you can kind of see that in in other can kind of see that in in other can kind of see that in in other first-person shooter genres where first-person shooter genres where first-person shooter genres where um you may not even you know shooting a um you may not even you know shooting a um you may not even you know shooting a player player player may not even result in their death um may not even result in their death um may not even result in their death um the way it's represented on screen won't the way it's represented on screen won't the way it's represented on screen won't be that be that be that you know them them um blood pouring out you know them them um blood pouring out you know them them um blood pouring out and shot and falling over and shot and falling over and shot and falling over it'll just be their removal from the it'll just be their removal from the it'll just be their removal from the battlefield for them to come back later battlefield for them to come back later battlefield for them to come back later so much more of a sort of um so much more of a sort of um so much more of a sort of um a very obviously gamified version so i a very obviously gamified version so i a very obviously gamified version so i think that's kind of think that's kind of think that's kind of i think that's kind of the thing uh i think that's kind of the thing uh i think that's kind of the thing uh insomuch as players don't have much of insomuch as players don't have much of insomuch as players don't have much of an attention span if the soul object an attention span if the soul object an attention span if the soul object the sole pleasure the sole purpose is the sole pleasure the sole purpose is the sole pleasure the sole purpose is just to just to just to just to try and experience that that just to try and experience that that just to try and experience that that that um that um that um visceral idea of of killing someone um visceral idea of of killing someone um visceral idea of of killing someone um i think it's far more about the i think it's far more about the i think it's far more about the strategical and tactical maneuvering strategical and tactical maneuvering strategical and tactical maneuvering um that sees sort of long-term victory i um that sees sort of long-term victory i um that sees sort of long-term victory i mean that that's mean that that's mean that that's i think that's the best um sort of i think that's the best um sort of i think that's the best um sort of explanation i can give of the genre explanation i can give of the genre explanation i can give of the genre um because i understand from the outset um because i understand from the outset um because i understand from the outset looking looking looking at it it is you know it seems like that at it it is you know it seems like that at it it is you know it seems like that is the the soul object is the the soul object is the the soul object um whereas i think that the thing that um whereas i think that the thing that um whereas i think that the thing that hooks most players is that greater hooks most players is that greater hooks most players is that greater strategic strategic strategic and tactical layer and that's certainly and tactical layer and that's certainly and tactical layer and that's certainly what we see what we see what we see in sort of the communities of people who

in sort of the communities of people who in sort of the communities of people who follow these games a lot of the follow these games a lot of the follow these games a lot of the conversation does drill down conversation does drill down conversation does drill down um to very very very esoteric topics um to very very very esoteric topics um to very very very esoteric topics like like like um you know the the gear speed of um you know the the gear speed of um you know the the gear speed of particular vehicles particular vehicles particular vehicles enabling them to get to a certain point enabling them to get to a certain point enabling them to get to a certain point of the battlefield faster than the other of the battlefield faster than the other of the battlefield faster than the other people people people that sort of thing unless on um uh that sort of thing unless on um uh that sort of thing unless on um uh the the designed experience of of the the designed experience of of the the designed experience of of simulated um killing of the enemy if simulated um killing of the enemy if simulated um killing of the enemy if that makes sense that makes sense that makes sense it does because a lot of that uh follows it does because a lot of that uh follows it does because a lot of that uh follows from the earlier war games we used to from the earlier war games we used to from the earlier war games we used to play where you would talk about play where you would talk about play where you would talk about uh tank specifications and speeds and uh tank specifications and speeds and uh tank specifications and speeds and turning radiuses and how quickly the turning radiuses and how quickly the turning radiuses and how quickly the turret would would move things like so turret would would move things like so turret would would move things like so i totally get all that i can't decide i totally get all that i can't decide i totally get all that i can't decide and i'd like to get your opinion on it and i'd like to get your opinion on it and i'd like to get your opinion on it because i've been swaying back and forth because i've been swaying back and forth because i've been swaying back and forth and i've certainly not thought about it and i've certainly not thought about it and i've certainly not thought about it for one bazillionth of the amount of for one bazillionth of the amount of for one bazillionth of the amount of time i'm sure you've thought about it time i'm sure you've thought about it time i'm sure you've thought about it i can't decide how i feel about the i can't decide how i feel about the i can't decide how i feel about the fidelity fidelity fidelity of um of the human damage right so when of um of the human damage right so when of um of the human damage right so when a gun or a grenade or anything does a gun or a grenade or anything does a gun or a grenade or anything does damage to a human being damage to a human being damage to a human being in the game a virtual human being i in the game a virtual human being i in the game a virtual human being i can't decide can't decide can't decide if you want to make it more graphic if you want to make it more graphic if you want to make it more graphic because that because that because that actually helps bring a reality into this actually helps bring a reality into this actually helps bring a reality into this that makes people think in other words that makes people think in other words that makes people think in other words the more graphic you make it the more the more graphic you make it the more the more graphic you make it the more you go you go you go oh this is a really nasty thing to get oh this is a really nasty thing to get oh this is a really nasty thing to get hit with i wouldn't want to be hit with i wouldn't want to be hit with i wouldn't want to be involved with this in real life or i involved with this in real life or i involved with this in real life or i sometimes sometimes sometimes go to the other extreme where i'm go to the other extreme where i'm go to the other extreme where i'm thinking okay then the bigger the splat thinking okay then the bigger the splat thinking okay then the bigger the splat of red of red of red ink that layers on the ground the more ink that layers on the ground the more ink that layers on the ground the more i'm getting a kick out of that i'm getting a kick out of that i'm getting a kick out of that is that how do we how do we deal with is that how do we how do we deal with is that how do we how do we deal with the fidelity question and

the fidelity question and the fidelity question and and the way that that impacts the player and the way that that impacts the player and the way that that impacts the player i mean i mean i mean one could argue i think that the more one could argue i think that the more one could argue i think that the more brutal you make it the more you help brutal you make it the more you help brutal you make it the more you help compensate for some of these other compensate for some of these other compensate for some of these other things we've things we've things we've been talking about the other side of it been talking about the other side of it been talking about the other side of it is the more brutal you brutal you make is the more brutal you brutal you make is the more brutal you brutal you make it maybe it maybe it maybe more of a kick the people who like that more of a kick the people who like that more of a kick the people who like that are getting out of it how do you guys are getting out of it how do you guys are getting out of it how do you guys measure that when you're trying to measure that when you're trying to measure that when you're trying to design this thing and they're talking design this thing and they're talking design this thing and they're talking about about about representations for example of what a representations for example of what a representations for example of what a grenade does grenade does grenade does if it explodes in your midsection and if it explodes in your midsection and if it explodes in your midsection and whatnot i mean i i whatnot i mean i i whatnot i mean i i it's got to be an interesting fly on the it's got to be an interesting fly on the it's got to be an interesting fly on the wall sort of moment in the room when you wall sort of moment in the room when you wall sort of moment in the room when you guys are designing these things guys are designing these things guys are designing these things it definitely is i mean i think and it definitely is i mean i think and it definitely is i mean i think and interestingly i think it actually comes interestingly i think it actually comes interestingly i think it actually comes down to sort of your philosophy down to sort of your philosophy down to sort of your philosophy about the preservation of history um about the preservation of history um about the preservation of history um which i i don't want to give a sort of which i i don't want to give a sort of which i i don't want to give a sort of politician's answer but um politician's answer but um politician's answer but um but but for us the way that we've but but for us the way that we've but but for us the way that we've approached this is that we're approached this is that we're approached this is that we're trying to as best as possible um trying to as best as possible um trying to as best as possible um display to you the the best display to you the the best display to you the the best to the best of our knowledge what would to the best of our knowledge what would to the best of our knowledge what would happen in real life in kind of nearly happen in real life in kind of nearly happen in real life in kind of nearly every instance of what you encounter in every instance of what you encounter in every instance of what you encounter in the game the game the game um when you're making any piece um when you're making any piece um when you're making any piece of um media and video games obviously of um media and video games obviously of um media and video games obviously being no exception being no exception being no exception you're always making decisions about you're always making decisions about you're always making decisions about what you include because sort of what you include because sort of what you include because sort of nothing's there existing nothing's there existing nothing's there existing before you start so we have to build all before you start so we have to build all before you start so we have to build all the systems we have to build the systems we have to build the systems we have to build you know create all the character models you know create all the character models you know create all the character models um all of our soldiers um all of our soldiers um all of our soldiers we have to create even the look of the we have to create even the look of the we have to create even the look of the dirt on the ground dirt on the ground dirt on the ground and the way the trees sway and and the way the trees sway and and the way the trees sway and everything like that

everything like that everything like that and i think you reach this really and i think you reach this really and i think you reach this really interesting conundrum as you have interesting conundrum as you have interesting conundrum as you have touched on where touched on where touched on where historically um historically um historically um and i think depiction of of um you know and i think depiction of of um you know and i think depiction of of um you know um um um the german forces uh nazism things like the german forces uh nazism things like the german forces uh nazism things like that that that very very contentious and extremely very very contentious and extremely very very contentious and extremely difficult difficult difficult um topics uh can be approached in many um topics uh can be approached in many um topics uh can be approached in many different ways different ways different ways and and i think something we've tried to and and i think something we've tried to and and i think something we've tried to do do do is to present the recorded is to present the recorded is to present the recorded history without softening um history without softening um history without softening um without softening or doing anyone any without softening or doing anyone any without softening or doing anyone any favors favors favors by force by force by force but by deciding to curate um in a but by deciding to curate um in a but by deciding to curate um in a particular way particular way particular way one way or another and what i mean by one way or another and what i mean by one way or another and what i mean by that is that is that is we don't want to soften the violence of we don't want to soften the violence of we don't want to soften the violence of war war war because we feel that it would do a because we feel that it would do a because we feel that it would do a disrespect to disrespect to disrespect to the memories of those people who fought the memories of those people who fought the memories of those people who fought and died and died and died and we don't want to obviously don't and we don't want to obviously don't and we don't want to obviously don't want to encourage want to encourage want to encourage killing either but we felt that it's killing either but we felt that it's killing either but we felt that it's very important very important very important to depict here what happened when to depict here what happened when to depict here what happened when these people were given this weaponry these people were given this weaponry these people were given this weaponry and they fought each other and they fought each other and they fought each other um as a way i think of preserving this i um as a way i think of preserving this i um as a way i think of preserving this i mean and you see this mean and you see this mean and you see this um done um in in um done um in in um done um in in films which obviously have a much films which obviously have a much films which obviously have a much stronger narrative presence and have a stronger narrative presence and have a stronger narrative presence and have a much greater ability to kind of much greater ability to kind of much greater ability to kind of inform your your moral take on the inform your your moral take on the inform your your moral take on the events that are unfolding

events that are unfolding events that are unfolding and obviously video games have a harder and obviously video games have a harder and obviously video games have a harder time with that because if you're making time with that because if you're making time with that because if you're making a multiplayer game as we are a multiplayer game as we are a multiplayer game as we are it becomes extremely um difficult to it becomes extremely um difficult to it becomes extremely um difficult to have any narrative have any narrative have any narrative voices simply no no part in the game uh voices simply no no part in the game uh voices simply no no part in the game uh just as you would be watching a game of just as you would be watching a game of just as you would be watching a game of football football football um really you would need a commentator um really you would need a commentator um really you would need a commentator to give color to and story to the to give color to and story to the to give color to and story to the actions unfolding actions unfolding actions unfolding um on the screen in a way that lets you um on the screen in a way that lets you um on the screen in a way that lets you morally morally morally um connect with it and not just um connect with it and not just um connect with it and not just understand the plays as they were understand the plays as they were understand the plays as they were happening happening happening um so it's extremely fraught and and the um so it's extremely fraught and and the um so it's extremely fraught and and the way that we've way that we've way that we've approached uh this um attempt at approached uh this um attempt at approached uh this um attempt at preserving history preserving history preserving history is to do justice to the violence of war is to do justice to the violence of war is to do justice to the violence of war the violence of this conflict the violence of this conflict the violence of this conflict to not uh reward it but then also to not uh reward it but then also to not uh reward it but then also we do know that there is some element of we do know that there is some element of we do know that there is some element of people's reaction that is out of our people's reaction that is out of our people's reaction that is out of our control i mean that's that's a caveat control i mean that's that's a caveat control i mean that's that's a caveat um but but what we've found with our um but but what we've found with our um but but what we've found with our community and the people who play the community and the people who play the community and the people who play the game game game is that conversations about the violence is that conversations about the violence is that conversations about the violence within the game are actually within the game are actually within the game are actually um almost the last um almost the last um almost the last thing they comment on um thing they comment on um thing they comment on um and and more what takes center stage is and and more what takes center stage is and and more what takes center stage is um an appreciation of the um um an appreciation of the um um an appreciation of the um the the minutia and the detail on on the the minutia and the detail on on the the minutia and the detail on on different weapons and different uniforms different weapons and different uniforms different weapons and different uniforms on vehicles um on vehicles um on vehicles um the layout of maps and things like that the layout of maps and things like that the layout of maps and things like that so it is it's an extremely fraught topic so it is it's an extremely fraught topic so it is it's an extremely fraught topic it's extremely difficult but i think for it's extremely difficult but i think for it's extremely difficult but i think for us us us our perspective of the history is to

our perspective of the history is to our perspective of the history is to present it as it was and then let the present it as it was and then let the present it as it was and then let the players decide um whether this is players decide um whether this is players decide um whether this is horrendous or horrendous or horrendous or or or whatever um and not try and soften or or whatever um and not try and soften or or whatever um and not try and soften it for them it for them it for them um because we feel that this the um because we feel that this the um because we feel that this the violence of this needs to be needs to be violence of this needs to be needs to be violence of this needs to be needs to be understood i think in the same way that understood i think in the same way that understood i think in the same way that um someone like spielberg made very very um someone like spielberg made very very um someone like spielberg made very very concerted decisions within his portrayal concerted decisions within his portrayal concerted decisions within his portrayal in saving private ryan of the violence in saving private ryan of the violence in saving private ryan of the violence of war of war of war um to show the human impact on sev the um to show the human impact on sev the um to show the human impact on sev the the the the impact of the violence on the civilian impact of the violence on the civilian impact of the violence on the civilian population of france and that population of france and that population of france and that um really heartbreaking scene uh where um really heartbreaking scene uh where um really heartbreaking scene uh where vin diesel's character is vin diesel's character is vin diesel's character is shot by the german sniper and then also shot by the german sniper and then also shot by the german sniper and then also we also see the returning fire on the we also see the returning fire on the we also see the returning fire on the german sniper as well german sniper as well german sniper as well and i think that you know it was and i think that you know it was and i think that you know it was interesting that spielberg decided to interesting that spielberg decided to interesting that spielberg decided to show that the horrendousness of that to show that the horrendousness of that to show that the horrendousness of that to the audience so the audience so the audience so that's sort of our approach to this um that's sort of our approach to this um that's sort of our approach to this um you know it may not be a perfect one you know it may not be a perfect one you know it may not be a perfect one um but we are really approaching it in um but we are really approaching it in um but we are really approaching it in in good faith from a in good faith from a in good faith from a from an historical perspective um and from an historical perspective um and from an historical perspective um and trying not to trying not to trying not to you know trying not to curate away from you know trying not to curate away from you know trying not to curate away from from the nastier side of it from the nastier side of it from the nastier side of it well it's interesting you went right well it's interesting you went right well it's interesting you went right where i was going to go to the spielberg where i was going to go to the spielberg where i was going to go to the spielberg type stuff because i was type stuff because i was type stuff because i was see and that's a perfect example of the see and that's a perfect example of the see and that's a perfect example of the artistic trade-offs because artistic trade-offs because artistic trade-offs because it was always my contention because that it was always my contention because that it was always my contention because that movie garnered such uh movie garnered such uh movie garnered such uh attention when it first came out for attention when it first came out for attention when it first came out for being so realistic and my critique was being so realistic and my critique was being so realistic and my critique was that it wasn't realistic enough and the that it wasn't realistic enough and the that it wasn't realistic enough and the fact that that fact that that fact that that the media thought that that was what war the media thought that that was what war the media thought that that was what war looked like when it was realistic was looked like when it was realistic was looked like when it was realistic was an example right there that it didn't

an example right there that it didn't an example right there that it didn't have a real idea of what real war was have a real idea of what real war was have a real idea of what real war was like and so like and so like and so i thought it should have been more i thought it should have been more i thought it should have been more vicious more vicious more vicious more graphic and the whole thing and yet uh graphic and the whole thing and yet uh graphic and the whole thing and yet uh spielberg in the same way you know we spielberg in the same way you know we spielberg in the same way you know we did a virtual reality did a virtual reality did a virtual reality first world war exhibit i did it with a first world war exhibit i did it with a first world war exhibit i did it with a bunch of other people and we had these bunch of other people and we had these bunch of other people and we had these meetings where we had the same kinds of meetings where we had the same kinds of meetings where we had the same kinds of questions coming up which is do you questions coming up which is do you questions coming up which is do you really want to make it as graphic and really want to make it as graphic and really want to make it as graphic and horrible as it was and if you did horrible as it was and if you did horrible as it was and if you did would anybody go to take part in it uh would anybody go to take part in it uh would anybody go to take part in it uh if if spielberg shows you what war if if spielberg shows you what war if if spielberg shows you what war really looks like does anybody go to the really looks like does anybody go to the really looks like does anybody go to the movie movie movie right or does it get an x rating so right or does it get an x rating so right or does it get an x rating so nobody can go to the movie nobody can go to the movie nobody can go to the movie i also want to point out that your game i also want to point out that your game i also want to point out that your game is part of a long is part of a long is part of a long history of a genre that people are very history of a genre that people are very history of a genre that people are very comfortable with right now so you comfortable with right now so you comfortable with right now so you shouldn't have to answer all these basic shouldn't have to answer all these basic shouldn't have to answer all these basic questions about first-person shooter questions about first-person shooter questions about first-person shooter things things things i'm interested in the idea though of i'm interested in the idea though of i'm interested in the idea though of taking this to the next level and one of taking this to the next level and one of taking this to the next level and one of the things the things the things that your game does is is is push the that your game does is is is push the that your game does is is is push the boundaries of boundaries of boundaries of realism uh the feeling of a realism uh the feeling of a realism uh the feeling of a three-dimensional space where you're three-dimensional space where you're three-dimensional space where you're cooperating with other people i mean cooperating with other people i mean cooperating with other people i mean there's elements in this there's elements in this there's elements in this which are new i would think am i right which are new i would think am i right which are new i would think am i right in saying that would you say that this in saying that would you say that this in saying that would you say that this game pushes certain boundaries in terms game pushes certain boundaries in terms game pushes certain boundaries in terms of of of uh directions in the genre yeah i think uh directions in the genre yeah i think uh directions in the genre yeah i think it i think um it i think um it i think um it does definitely but i'd say you know it does definitely but i'd say you know it does definitely but i'd say you know like like like like everyone we're always standing on like everyone we're always standing on like everyone we're always standing on the shoulders of giants and the people the shoulders of giants and the people the shoulders of giants and the people who came before us and i think who came before us and i think who came before us and i think um in the context of video gaming i mean um in the context of video gaming i mean um in the context of video gaming i mean video games um video games um video games um to um blow the trumpet of the video game to um blow the trumpet of the video game to um blow the trumpet of the video game industry for a moment is you know is an industry for a moment is you know is an industry for a moment is you know is an art form art form art form um oh absolutely and it's yeah and it's

um oh absolutely and it's yeah and it's um oh absolutely and it's yeah and it's just it's it's a very young art form as just it's it's a very young art form as just it's it's a very young art form as well well well um i mean it's only really existed you um i mean it's only really existed you um i mean it's only really existed you could argue sort of for 40 or 50 years could argue sort of for 40 or 50 years could argue sort of for 40 or 50 years at you know at best at a big stretch and at you know at best at a big stretch and at you know at best at a big stretch and only only only really becoming popular um to sort of really becoming popular um to sort of really becoming popular um to sort of majoritarian context i think in the last majoritarian context i think in the last majoritarian context i think in the last 10 to 15 10 to 15 10 to 15 years it certainly changed hugely from years it certainly changed hugely from years it certainly changed hugely from when i was young to now when i was young to now when i was young to now um the number of people who play them um the number of people who play them um the number of people who play them and engage with them and engage with them and engage with them um and like all art forms i think that um and like all art forms i think that um and like all art forms i think that it it's always evolving on itself it's it it's always evolving on itself it's it it's always evolving on itself it's always trying to develop on itself and i always trying to develop on itself and i always trying to develop on itself and i think we want you know we think we want you know we think we want you know we we're one in a long line of people who we're one in a long line of people who we're one in a long line of people who have been doing that but but you're have been doing that but but you're have been doing that but but you're definitely right in so much as definitely right in so much as definitely right in so much as um i think uh um i think uh um i think uh we're evolving towards teamwork i think we're evolving towards teamwork i think we're evolving towards teamwork i think um our game um our game um our game in particular is appealing more towards in particular is appealing more towards in particular is appealing more towards an older player base one who's not just an older player base one who's not just an older player base one who's not just interested in being very very good at interested in being very very good at interested in being very very good at aiming aiming aiming but is also really interested in but is also really interested in but is also really interested in communication um communication um communication um in community itself in working with in community itself in working with in community itself in working with larger and larger groups of players and larger and larger groups of players and larger and larger groups of players and coordinating and finding success in that coordinating and finding success in that coordinating and finding success in that coordination coordination coordination and i think we're kind of seeing this and i think we're kind of seeing this and i think we're kind of seeing this across the whole video game genre across the whole video game genre across the whole video game genre games that you know 10 15 years ago you games that you know 10 15 years ago you games that you know 10 15 years ago you would think were completely commercially would think were completely commercially would think were completely commercially in non-viable i would argue we would be in non-viable i would argue we would be in non-viable i would argue we would be in that category as well in that category as well in that category as well um have started to take um a greater um have started to take um a greater um have started to take um a greater um portion of the market um you know an um portion of the market um you know an um portion of the market um you know an ever-growing market ever-growing market ever-growing market um and it's been very very interesting um and it's been very very interesting um and it's been very very interesting to kind of see that happen and it's very to kind of see that happen and it's very to kind of see that happen and it's very very interesting also to think about the

very interesting also to think about the very interesting also to think about the future and where it might go future and where it might go future and where it might go um and and i think the best guess anyone um and and i think the best guess anyone um and and i think the best guess anyone has is to look at what we have now and has is to look at what we have now and has is to look at what we have now and just to just to just to imagine what what happens if it gets imagine what what happens if it gets imagine what what happens if it gets bigger bigger bigger and pushes further in that direction and pushes further in that direction and pushes further in that direction pushes further in the direction of pushes further in the direction of pushes further in the direction of teamwork teamwork teamwork it pushes further in the direction of it pushes further in the direction of it pushes further in the direction of scale scale scale strategy planning and that's just for strategy planning and that's just for strategy planning and that's just for our genre our genre our genre you know i think that um the same can be you know i think that um the same can be you know i think that um the same can be said of every genre within video gaming said of every genre within video gaming said of every genre within video gaming that that that that it will find new ways to iterate on that it will find new ways to iterate on that it will find new ways to iterate on itself um itself um itself um i mean virtual reality alone i think is i mean virtual reality alone i think is i mean virtual reality alone i think is going to going to going to have an extremely significant impact have an extremely significant impact have an extremely significant impact i mean dare i say it on humanity um once i mean dare i say it on humanity um once i mean dare i say it on humanity um once they solve sort of the issues around they solve sort of the issues around they solve sort of the issues around um getting one into every household i um getting one into every household i um getting one into every household i think that's going to be think that's going to be think that's going to be extremely interesting to see where it extremely interesting to see where it extremely interesting to see where it goes so yeah the video game genre goes so yeah the video game genre goes so yeah the video game genre um just seems to continue to iterate um um just seems to continue to iterate um um just seems to continue to iterate um at an absolutely breakneck pace and so at an absolutely breakneck pace and so at an absolutely breakneck pace and so something i guess that we were doing something i guess that we were doing something i guess that we were doing that was new that was new that was new um you know now may no longer be new as um you know now may no longer be new as um you know now may no longer be new as of as of you know a year ago a week ago of as of you know a year ago a week ago of as of you know a year ago a week ago a day ago a day ago a day ago so i brought up some of the traditional so i brought up some of the traditional so i brought up some of the traditional and maybe almost stereotypical downsides and maybe almost stereotypical downsides and maybe almost stereotypical downsides of the genre but let's talk about some of the genre but let's talk about some of the genre but let's talk about some of the upsides of the upsides of the upsides uh wargaming was something that helped uh wargaming was something that helped uh wargaming was something that helped deepen and amplified and accelerated my deepen and amplified and accelerated my deepen and amplified and accelerated my enjoyment and interest in history enjoyment and interest in history enjoyment and interest in history i can only imagine i and you're going to i can only imagine i and you're going to i can only imagine i and you're going to know so much more know so much more know so much more about this than i uh i can only imagine about this than i uh i can only imagine about this than i uh i can only imagine the same effect that this is having with

the same effect that this is having with the same effect that this is having with young people coming up today young people coming up today young people coming up today who might never think of cracking a book who might never think of cracking a book who might never think of cracking a book or going down and and doing any research or going down and and doing any research or going down and and doing any research themselves on history until something themselves on history until something themselves on history until something like this like this like this prompted the spark in them of interest prompted the spark in them of interest prompted the spark in them of interest do you do you see this as i mean if if do you do you see this as i mean if if do you do you see this as i mean if if old-fashioned wargaming with miniature old-fashioned wargaming with miniature old-fashioned wargaming with miniature figures that you hand-painted yourself figures that you hand-painted yourself figures that you hand-painted yourself could have that effect on me uh do you could have that effect on me uh do you could have that effect on me uh do you think that this is something that think that this is something that think that this is something that becomes an becomes an becomes an introductory path for for people to introductory path for for people to introductory path for for people to become more interested in the period become more interested in the period become more interested in the period being displayed and being displayed and being displayed and that they're learning about as they go that they're learning about as they go that they're learning about as they go through these things definitely i mean through these things definitely i mean through these things definitely i mean this is this is actually something this is this is actually something this is this is actually something extremely close to home for me so extremely close to home for me so extremely close to home for me so um during during the 90s the early 90s um during during the 90s the early 90s um during during the 90s the early 90s when i was growing up my father would when i was growing up my father would when i was growing up my father would spend um spend um spend um nights relaxing after he got work home nights relaxing after he got work home nights relaxing after he got work home from work from work from work um by painting little uh figurines of um by painting little uh figurines of um by painting little uh figurines of the scots gray cavalry the scots gray cavalry the scots gray cavalry um at waterloo and he had basically a um at waterloo and he had basically a um at waterloo and he had basically a tabletop of of waterloo set up tabletop of of waterloo set up tabletop of of waterloo set up and i would watch him paint these small and i would watch him paint these small and i would watch him paint these small figurines and figurines and figurines and i don't think he ever got around to i don't think he ever got around to i don't think he ever got around to actually wargaming them he just really actually wargaming them he just really actually wargaming them he just really enjoyed the catharsis of enjoyed the catharsis of enjoyed the catharsis of of painting these these tiny miniatures of painting these these tiny miniatures of painting these these tiny miniatures um um um and from there he then you know sort of and from there he then you know sort of and from there he then you know sort of um um um age of empires i think came out in 1997 age of empires i think came out in 1997 age of empires i think came out in 1997 and 1998 and 1998 and 1998 age of empires was really one of the age of empires was really one of the age of empires was really one of the first sort of very accessible historical first sort of very accessible historical first sort of very accessible historical games it was an extremely vibrant game games it was an extremely vibrant game games it was an extremely vibrant game it told the story of it told the story of it told the story of genghis khan of uh joan of arc genghis khan of uh joan of arc genghis khan of uh joan of arc um of um

um of um um of um his name escapes me the holy roman his name escapes me the holy roman his name escapes me the holy roman emperor i'm not doing a very good job of emperor i'm not doing a very good job of emperor i'm not doing a very good job of it right now but um it right now but um it right now but um charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne charlemagne excuse me but um excuse me but um excuse me but um this game um my dad showed me this game this game um my dad showed me this game this game um my dad showed me this game and he took an interest and he took an interest and he took an interest in it obviously for his love because of in it obviously for his love because of in it obviously for his love because of his love of history his love of history his love of history um and he introduced me to this game and um and he introduced me to this game and um and he introduced me to this game and and and and this game introduced me to the stories this game introduced me to the stories this game introduced me to the stories of these extremely um of these extremely um of these extremely um iconic but very um uh dispersed iconic but very um uh dispersed iconic but very um uh dispersed historical figures historical figures historical figures um and i would have been only kind of um and i would have been only kind of um and i would have been only kind of eight nine or ten eight nine or ten eight nine or ten and and it just gripped me entirely um and and it just gripped me entirely um and and it just gripped me entirely um and so it's an interesting uh microcosm and so it's an interesting uh microcosm and so it's an interesting uh microcosm of my dad going from war gaming of my dad going from war gaming of my dad going from war gaming or at least um painting and appreciating or at least um painting and appreciating or at least um painting and appreciating all the miniatures all the miniatures all the miniatures uh to video games and then that being uh to video games and then that being uh to video games and then that being directly given to me and i also should directly given to me and i also should directly given to me and i also should say that you know say that you know say that you know he still paints these figurines to this he still paints these figurines to this he still paints these figurines to this day and i i i love um day and i i i love um day and i i i love um working with him on uh with them with working with him on uh with them with working with him on uh with them with him on them him on them him on them um and i myself have done some wargaming um and i myself have done some wargaming um and i myself have done some wargaming i was a big sort of warhammer fan as i was a big sort of warhammer fan as i was a big sort of warhammer fan as well well well um and so it is interesting how that um and so it is interesting how that um and so it is interesting how that sort of transmitted through sort of transmitted through sort of transmitted through um and then from age of empires um i um and then from age of empires um i um and then from age of empires um i learned the stories of these key figures learned the stories of these key figures learned the stories of these key figures um some better than others as we both um some better than others as we both um some better than others as we both know with charlemagne but um know with charlemagne but um know with charlemagne but um i then started playing other historical i then started playing other historical i then started playing other historical games that's actually the first games that's actually the first games that's actually the first first person shooter game i i started first person shooter game i i started first person shooter game i i started playing was a game called battlefield playing was a game called battlefield playing was a game called battlefield 1942 1942 1942 obviously a world war ii game um not obviously a world war ii game um not obviously a world war ii game um not dissimilar to our own and then call of

dissimilar to our own and then call of dissimilar to our own and then call of duty which was a world war ii game as duty which was a world war ii game as duty which was a world war ii game as well well well um and in those games i just picked up um and in those games i just picked up um and in those games i just picked up this extreme interest this extreme interest this extreme interest in in world war ii um as a as a period in in world war ii um as a as a period in in world war ii um as a as a period as an historical period and and all the as an historical period and and all the as an historical period and and all the um interesting things that took place um interesting things that took place um interesting things that took place but then obviously but then obviously but then obviously all the tragedy um within it as well but all the tragedy um within it as well but all the tragedy um within it as well but it was this direct transmission from war it was this direct transmission from war it was this direct transmission from war gaming gaming gaming um to video gaming and then um a lot of um to video gaming and then um a lot of um to video gaming and then um a lot of that has then that has then that has then shaped and and directly inspired what shaped and and directly inspired what shaped and and directly inspired what what we've done what we've done what we've done at my company with our game um and it's at my company with our game um and it's at my company with our game um and it's also also also inspired the way that we try and capture inspired the way that we try and capture inspired the way that we try and capture these events as well because these events as well because these events as well because just as i learned something you know just as i learned something you know just as i learned something you know approximating the historical record approximating the historical record approximating the historical record through the games that came before through the games that came before through the games that came before i'd like to kind of pay that service to i'd like to kind of pay that service to i'd like to kind of pay that service to the people who end up engaging with our the people who end up engaging with our the people who end up engaging with our game so i i definitely think there's a game so i i definitely think there's a game so i i definitely think there's a direct transmission through there direct transmission through there direct transmission through there and i think um as well you know we're and i think um as well you know we're and i think um as well you know we're seeing seeing seeing um war movies and historical movies um war movies and historical movies um war movies and historical movies particularly particularly particularly take a back seat to other genres of take a back seat to other genres of take a back seat to other genres of films i think the superhero genre films i think the superhero genre films i think the superhero genre has sort of become the new war movie uh has sort of become the new war movie uh has sort of become the new war movie uh genre if you like genre if you like genre if you like um and there's there's obviously um and there's there's obviously um and there's there's obviously exceptions to that rule but um exceptions to that rule but um exceptions to that rule but um i think more and more so now young i think more and more so now young i think more and more so now young people especially are engaging with people especially are engaging with people especially are engaging with history through games and so history through games and so history through games and so we see ourselves as in a small way we see ourselves as in a small way we see ourselves as in a small way able to contribute to some kind of able to contribute to some kind of able to contribute to some kind of understanding of these conflicts understanding of these conflicts understanding of these conflicts well first of all i'm i must be closer well first of all i'm i must be closer well first of all i'm i must be closer to your dad's age because i also have to your dad's age because i also have to your dad's age because i also have thousands of those miniature figures thousands of those miniature figures thousands of those miniature figures that i've painted myself

that i've painted myself that i've painted myself from the old days that i still have i from the old days that i still have i from the old days that i still have i also remember the very first computer i also remember the very first computer i also remember the very first computer i ever bought ever bought ever bought i bought for only one reason and that i bought for only one reason and that i bought for only one reason and that that was there was a game called the that was there was a game called the that was there was a game called the ancient art of war that i had to play ancient art of war that i had to play ancient art of war that i had to play and we're talking about the mid 1980s and we're talking about the mid 1980s and we're talking about the mid 1980s here here here so as a as a guy who had been in the so as a as a guy who had been in the so as a as a guy who had been in the let's call it the analog world of war let's call it the analog world of war let's call it the analog world of war gaming the the gaming the the gaming the the the potential to take that into the the potential to take that into the the potential to take that into the realm of computer games uh realm of computer games uh realm of computer games uh was absolutely uh i mean probably the was absolutely uh i mean probably the was absolutely uh i mean probably the first 15 computer games i ever owned first 15 computer games i ever owned first 15 computer games i ever owned were all were all were all war games or variations of war games and war games or variations of war games and war games or variations of war games and in fact in fact in fact uh one of my favorite ones to play right uh one of my favorite ones to play right uh one of my favorite ones to play right now the field of glory now the field of glory now the field of glory games are all nothing more than an games are all nothing more than an games are all nothing more than an attempt by somebody who certainly played attempt by somebody who certainly played attempt by somebody who certainly played those same games with miniature figures those same games with miniature figures those same games with miniature figures like i did like i did like i did to take that game and and turn it into to take that game and and turn it into to take that game and and turn it into an actual an actual an actual computer game where you don't need to computer game where you don't need to computer game where you don't need to worry about finding opponents worry about finding opponents worry about finding opponents as you know from your dad's experience as you know from your dad's experience as you know from your dad's experience the hobby itself isn't the hobby itself isn't the hobby itself isn't it's a hardcore hobby in the sense that it's a hardcore hobby in the sense that it's a hardcore hobby in the sense that there's almost an obsession to it there's almost an obsession to it there's almost an obsession to it and if you're a young person it's an and if you're a young person it's an and if you're a young person it's an extremely expensive hobby to break into extremely expensive hobby to break into extremely expensive hobby to break into uh the entry level requirements are huge uh the entry level requirements are huge uh the entry level requirements are huge whereas with a computer game whereas with a computer game whereas with a computer game it is uh you know uh maybe under the it is uh you know uh maybe under the it is uh you know uh maybe under the christmas tree christmas tree christmas tree you can have it there and then all of a you can have it there and then all of a you can have it there and then all of a sudden without any more uh sudden without any more uh sudden without any more uh investment than that you can become investment than that you can become investment than that you can become somebody who's learning about the past somebody who's learning about the past somebody who's learning about the past through an immersive sort of an through an immersive sort of an through an immersive sort of an experience experience experience so i mean i definitely do see the so i mean i definitely do see the so i mean i definitely do see the similarities can you talk to me a little similarities can you talk to me a little similarities can you talk to me a little bit not not shifting gears here but i'm bit not not shifting gears here but i'm bit not not shifting gears here but i'm interested in the game and trying to interested in the game and trying to interested in the game and trying to figure out how you deal with figure out how you deal with figure out how you deal with um you know the second world war is

um you know the second world war is um you know the second world war is famously more of a good guy famously more of a good guy famously more of a good guy bad guy war if you go to the first world bad guy war if you go to the first world bad guy war if you go to the first world war uh you can do a much better i think war uh you can do a much better i think war uh you can do a much better i think example where anybody could potentially example where anybody could potentially example where anybody could potentially be the good guys depending on the point be the good guys depending on the point be the good guys depending on the point of view you have of view you have of view you have how does one incorporate especially how does one incorporate especially how does one incorporate especially since as you said you lack the ability since as you said you lack the ability since as you said you lack the ability to incorporate a heavy duty narrative to incorporate a heavy duty narrative to incorporate a heavy duty narrative uh to the whole thing i mean i i guess uh to the whole thing i mean i i guess uh to the whole thing i mean i i guess i'm just thinking i would not be the i'm just thinking i would not be the i'm just thinking i would not be the kind of guy to play the german forces kind of guy to play the german forces kind of guy to play the german forces just because of my own inherent biases just because of my own inherent biases just because of my own inherent biases um how does that i mean if you're doing um how does that i mean if you're doing um how does that i mean if you're doing stalingrad some might make a case and i stalingrad some might make a case and i stalingrad some might make a case and i think we did in a podcast once think we did in a podcast once think we did in a podcast once that from the american or the british that from the american or the british that from the american or the british point of view both those sides are point of view both those sides are point of view both those sides are necessarily uh necessarily uh necessarily uh fraught with uh what's the word i'm fraught with uh what's the word i'm fraught with uh what's the word i'm looking for here uh moral quandaries looking for here uh moral quandaries looking for here uh moral quandaries might be a good way to put it and i know might be a good way to put it and i know might be a good way to put it and i know that in germany that in germany that in germany you can't show things like swastikas and you can't show things like swastikas and you can't show things like swastikas and all that how does one navigate the all that how does one navigate the all that how does one navigate the difficult terrain difficult terrain difficult terrain of the morality in a war that is so of the morality in a war that is so of the morality in a war that is so dominated by the moral questions dominated by the moral questions dominated by the moral questions that is um you know look that's the key that is um you know look that's the key that is um you know look that's the key question in so much as um question in so much as um question in so much as um us coming to this subject matter uh it us coming to this subject matter uh it us coming to this subject matter uh it is certainly difficult and it's is certainly difficult and it's is certainly difficult and it's certainly one that we certainly one that we certainly one that we constantly um think deeply about constantly um think deeply about constantly um think deeply about uh and obviously i mean so so at a uh and obviously i mean so so at a uh and obviously i mean so so at a baseline baseline baseline um we have removed um we have removed um we have removed um all of the um um all of the um um all of the um nazi iconography within the game that nazi iconography within the game that nazi iconography within the game that means um means um means um uh obscuring uh swastikas uh obscuring uh swastikas uh obscuring uh swastikas um and other uh imagery like that on

um and other uh imagery like that on um and other uh imagery like that on uniforms and things so we have this uniforms and things so we have this uniforms and things so we have this incredibly difficult balance of incredibly difficult balance of incredibly difficult balance of trying to um give these soldiers the trying to um give these soldiers the trying to um give these soldiers the actual uniform they fought in actual uniform they fought in actual uniform they fought in um which often is not what you would um which often is not what you would um which often is not what you would think it would look like i think think it would look like i think think it would look like i think everyone has an opinion of german everyone has an opinion of german everyone has an opinion of german soldiers as wearing a red armband soldiers as wearing a red armband soldiers as wearing a red armband obviously obviously obviously you know almost like a ceremonial outfit you know almost like a ceremonial outfit you know almost like a ceremonial outfit but a lot of them were wearing you know but a lot of them were wearing you know but a lot of them were wearing you know sort of sort of sort of the equivalent of a wool jacket some the equivalent of a wool jacket some the equivalent of a wool jacket some some pretty some pretty some pretty rough boots and obviously wool pants but rough boots and obviously wool pants but rough boots and obviously wool pants but but nevertheless we're trying to portray but nevertheless we're trying to portray but nevertheless we're trying to portray them as they them as they them as they as they were ideally within the theater as they were ideally within the theater as they were ideally within the theater that they were fighting that they were fighting that they were fighting and as accurately as possible while also and as accurately as possible while also and as accurately as possible while also making sure that we don't making sure that we don't making sure that we don't you know obviously we abide by german you know obviously we abide by german you know obviously we abide by german law um and then just law um and then just law um and then just out of sensitivity also obscure um out of sensitivity also obscure um out of sensitivity also obscure um the swastika uh more generally um the swastika uh more generally um the swastika uh more generally um we've also currently made the decision we've also currently made the decision we've also currently made the decision that we won't be including the ability that we won't be including the ability that we won't be including the ability to dress as to dress as to dress as the ss in the game which is extremely the ss in the game which is extremely the ss in the game which is extremely which is you would think would be a very which is you would think would be a very which is you would think would be a very easy decision to make but for a lot of easy decision to make but for a lot of easy decision to make but for a lot of sort of the historical purists sort of the historical purists sort of the historical purists um people get into all sorts of um people get into all sorts of um people get into all sorts of different difficult conversations about different difficult conversations about different difficult conversations about uh well what do you do about the nkvd uh well what do you do about the nkvd uh well what do you do about the nkvd you know obviously stalin's secret you know obviously stalin's secret you know obviously stalin's secret police yeah police yeah police yeah yeah yeah as you said the attorney you yeah yeah as you said the attorney you yeah yeah as you said the attorney you know they themselves did not have know they themselves did not have know they themselves did not have um clean hands and then obviously you um clean hands and then obviously you um clean hands and then obviously you then have another portion of of people then have another portion of of people then have another portion of of people who might say okay i they they agree who might say okay i they they agree who might say okay i they they agree that both um that both um that both um the the nazis and um the the nazis and um the the nazis and um some elements of the soviet forces

some elements of the soviet forces some elements of the soviet forces engaged in this stuff but what about the engaged in this stuff but what about the engaged in this stuff but what about the british in this location or the british in this location or the british in this location or the americans in this location americans in this location americans in this location or so on and so forth so it does become or so on and so forth so it does become or so on and so forth so it does become an extremely an extremely an extremely um again a very difficult kind of um again a very difficult kind of um again a very difficult kind of landscape to maneuver through landscape to maneuver through landscape to maneuver through um we try to do it with sensitivity by um we try to do it with sensitivity by um we try to do it with sensitivity by obviously removing specific obviously removing specific obviously removing specific um imagery alongside also um imagery alongside also um imagery alongside also wanting to do that to comply with with wanting to do that to comply with with wanting to do that to comply with with german law german law german law we try i think we've avoided thus far we try i think we've avoided thus far we try i think we've avoided thus far including other types of injury the including other types of injury the including other types of injury the hammer and sickle hammer and sickle hammer and sickle and things like that when it comes to and things like that when it comes to and things like that when it comes to the actual infield the actual infield the actual infield the on the battlefield type experience i the on the battlefield type experience i the on the battlefield type experience i mean no mean no mean no no part of the game is set up to enable no part of the game is set up to enable no part of the game is set up to enable you you you to do anything other than just sort of to do anything other than just sort of to do anything other than just sort of play the game against another force play the game against another force play the game against another force um we don't have any civilians on the um we don't have any civilians on the um we don't have any civilians on the battlefield we don't have any battlefield we don't have any battlefield we don't have any anything that could add uh or give anything that could add uh or give anything that could add uh or give players you know an opportunity to players you know an opportunity to players you know an opportunity to you know have questionable elements you know have questionable elements you know have questionable elements let's just say let's just say let's just say um we're just very keen to focus you on um we're just very keen to focus you on um we're just very keen to focus you on the frontline combat experience of those the frontline combat experience of those the frontline combat experience of those soldiers soldiers soldiers um and the and i think the the kind of um and the and i think the the kind of um and the and i think the the kind of conundrum we've had is that conundrum we've had is that conundrum we've had is that if you didn't want to portray any uh you if you didn't want to portray any uh you if you didn't want to portray any uh you know any morally questionable people know any morally questionable people know any morally questionable people i mean morally questionable people i mean morally questionable people i mean morally questionable people within war within war within war you you really can't portray it at all you you really can't portray it at all you you really can't portray it at all um um um and i don't want to give a sort of and i don't want to give a sort of and i don't want to give a sort of cop-out answer there but cop-out answer there but cop-out answer there but i mean no no i actually agree i agree i mean no no i actually agree i agree i mean no no i actually agree i agree with that actually yeah and so obviously with that actually yeah and so obviously with that actually yeah and so obviously well okay so if if

well okay so if if well okay so if if we either can't try it at all or we can we either can't try it at all or we can we either can't try it at all or we can portray it then how sensitively do we portray it then how sensitively do we portray it then how sensitively do we try to portray it and and for us it's try to portray it and and for us it's try to portray it and and for us it's as i kind of touched on earlier it's as i kind of touched on earlier it's as i kind of touched on earlier it's really about the strategic and tactical really about the strategic and tactical really about the strategic and tactical competitive elements of this competitive elements of this competitive elements of this um rather than than any of the um um rather than than any of the um um rather than than any of the um ideology associated with it it's it's ideology associated with it it's it's ideology associated with it it's it's it's not present anywhere in the game it's not present anywhere in the game it's not present anywhere in the game i think the strongest thing that we've i think the strongest thing that we've i think the strongest thing that we've got in the game is some got in the game is some got in the game is some is some of the gr writing on the wall is some of the gr writing on the wall is some of the gr writing on the wall the graffiti that some of the soviet the graffiti that some of the soviet the graffiti that some of the soviet soldiers wrote in stalingrad soldiers wrote in stalingrad soldiers wrote in stalingrad um that was sort of denouncing um um that was sort of denouncing um um that was sort of denouncing um fascists fascists fascists um i think that's about as political as um i think that's about as political as um i think that's about as political as we've got in the game and that was we've got in the game and that was we've got in the game and that was largely as largely as largely as a set dressing because it was so iconic a set dressing because it was so iconic a set dressing because it was so iconic within stalingrad within stalingrad within stalingrad um you just saw tons of posters um you just saw tons of posters um you just saw tons of posters everywhere everywhere everywhere um and tons of graffiti everywhere of um and tons of graffiti everywhere of um and tons of graffiti everywhere of these of these soldiers trading insults these of these soldiers trading insults these of these soldiers trading insults back and forth back and forth back and forth and i think that's kind of as close as and i think that's kind of as close as and i think that's kind of as close as we've got to depicting anything we've got to depicting anything we've got to depicting anything um especially ideological within the um especially ideological within the um especially ideological within the game obviously one could argue that game obviously one could argue that game obviously one could argue that depicting them at all is ideological but depicting them at all is ideological but depicting them at all is ideological but as we've said as we've said as we've said um you know we would really you would um you know we would really you would um you know we would really you would then then then create a situation where you really create a situation where you really create a situation where you really could never depict could never depict could never depict historical events um to some degree historical events um to some degree historical events um to some degree um i think he becomes very difficult um i think he becomes very difficult um i think he becomes very difficult i'm of two minds about the zone it's the i'm of two minds about the zone it's the i'm of two minds about the zone it's the same thing with the violence i think i same thing with the violence i think i same thing with the violence i think i and i haven't thought about it anywhere and i haven't thought about it anywhere and i haven't thought about it anywhere near as long as you have but but the near as long as you have but but the near as long as you have but but the same side of me that suggests that maybe same side of me that suggests that maybe same side of me that suggests that maybe uber violence is and treating this as uber violence is and treating this as uber violence is and treating this as realistic as possible realistic as possible realistic as possible helps eliminate some of the downside i

helps eliminate some of the downside i helps eliminate some of the downside i feel the same way about like feel the same way about like feel the same way about like when we would have world war ii second when we would have world war ii second when we would have world war ii second world war is always the way afraid world war is always the way afraid world war is always the way afraid when we were having second world war when we were having second world war when we were having second world war tank battles back in the 1970s tank battles back in the 1970s tank battles back in the 1970s i guarantee you people painted swastikas i guarantee you people painted swastikas i guarantee you people painted swastikas on the top of their tanks on the top of their tanks on the top of their tanks for aircraft recognition as as was done for aircraft recognition as as was done for aircraft recognition as as was done and so there's a part of me that thinks and so there's a part of me that thinks and so there's a part of me that thinks that and i understand from a corporate that and i understand from a corporate that and i understand from a corporate standpoint and german law and all those standpoint and german law and all those standpoint and german law and all those other things you have really no choice other things you have really no choice other things you have really no choice but there's a part of me that thinks but there's a part of me that thinks but there's a part of me that thinks that perhaps and i can go both ways that perhaps and i can go both ways that perhaps and i can go both ways because most people you could say because most people you could say because most people you could say uh would not be affected negatively by uh would not be affected negatively by uh would not be affected negatively by incorporating hammer incorporating hammer incorporating hammer and sickles or swastikas or all those and sickles or swastikas or all those and sickles or swastikas or all those things but the same things but the same things but the same small group of people that might be small group of people that might be small group of people that might be negatively affected by being able to go negatively affected by being able to go negatively affected by being able to go around shooting other around shooting other around shooting other virtual human beings might be affected virtual human beings might be affected virtual human beings might be affected by having swastikas and playing the ss by having swastikas and playing the ss by having swastikas and playing the ss but i don't know if you can create whole but i don't know if you can create whole but i don't know if you can create whole game systems game systems game systems uh based on what two or three or four uh based on what two or three or four uh based on what two or three or four percent of the users might react percent of the users might react percent of the users might react you know in in opposition the way you know in in opposition the way you know in in opposition the way everybody else reacts i think most everybody else reacts i think most everybody else reacts i think most people would be fine with all those people would be fine with all those people would be fine with all those other other other things and i think it might be a more a things and i think it might be a more a things and i think it might be a more a more faithful more faithful more faithful example of history i mean to incorporate example of history i mean to incorporate example of history i mean to incorporate a nazi german army and not show swastika a nazi german army and not show swastika a nazi german army and not show swastika seems weird seems weird seems weird right i mean i understand why it doesn't right i mean i understand why it doesn't right i mean i understand why it doesn't happen but there's a part of you that happen but there's a part of you that happen but there's a part of you that goes well if we're trying to teach about goes well if we're trying to teach about goes well if we're trying to teach about the war the war the war and if we're trying to make this an and if we're trying to make this an and if we're trying to make this an introduction to a fascinating period in introduction to a fascinating period in introduction to a fascinating period in human history human history human history which involves some of these extreme which involves some of these extreme which involves some of these extreme ideologies if you take the extreme ideologies if you take the extreme ideologies if you take the extreme ideologies out haven't you left you know ideologies out haven't you left you know ideologies out haven't you left you know haven't you left this giant black hole haven't you left this giant black hole haven't you left this giant black hole that is a huge part of the reason that that is a huge part of the reason that that is a huge part of the reason that this fighting is happening to begin with

this fighting is happening to begin with this fighting is happening to begin with i mean it is a really tough thing and i i mean it is a really tough thing and i i mean it is a really tough thing and i remember having similar discussions when remember having similar discussions when remember having similar discussions when it came to the it came to the it came to the uh immersive uh virtual reality uh immersive uh virtual reality uh immersive uh virtual reality experience connected to realism whereas experience connected to realism whereas experience connected to realism whereas as a certain point it becomes how do you as a certain point it becomes how do you as a certain point it becomes how do you how do you how do you how do you create a faithful reproduction of a create a faithful reproduction of a create a faithful reproduction of a negative human experience negative human experience negative human experience but not so much that it turns people off but not so much that it turns people off but not so much that it turns people off from wanting to participate in it from wanting to participate in it from wanting to participate in it um and so i think i think there's this um and so i think i think there's this um and so i think i think there's this fine line you guys have to walk fine line you guys have to walk fine line you guys have to walk and then you add the corporate thing and and then you add the corporate thing and and then you add the corporate thing and then you add the german law kind of then you add the german law kind of then you add the german law kind of thing thing thing but it does seem like there would be but it does seem like there would be but it does seem like there would be something inherently missing in what is something inherently missing in what is something inherently missing in what is an ideological war an ideological war an ideological war if you take out the ideology it seems if you take out the ideology it seems if you take out the ideology it seems like you guys would have to design like you guys would have to design like you guys would have to design around around around i guess i'm having a real admiration for i guess i'm having a real admiration for i guess i'm having a real admiration for your ability to design around those your ability to design around those your ability to design around those um those issues yeah it is um those issues yeah it is um those issues yeah it is you you're 100 correct though in so much you you're 100 correct though in so much you you're 100 correct though in so much as if we are trying to portray as if we are trying to portray as if we are trying to portray things as best we can according to the things as best we can according to the things as best we can according to the historical record i mean historical record i mean historical record i mean i commented in two minds and i'm sure i commented in two minds and i'm sure i commented in two minds and i'm sure you do the same and i mean you've you do the same and i mean you've you do the same and i mean you've already just said that you do already just said that you do already just said that you do the swastika is i i would argue one of the swastika is i i would argue one of the swastika is i i would argue one of the most powerful icons in human history the most powerful icons in human history the most powerful icons in human history at least modern human history at least modern human history at least modern human history nearly everyone in the world knows what nearly everyone in the world knows what nearly everyone in the world knows what that symbol means um that symbol means um that symbol means um and the suffering it caused uh you know and the suffering it caused uh you know and the suffering it caused uh you know and the suffering that it continues to and the suffering that it continues to and the suffering that it continues to cause i mean cause i mean cause i mean and and um the echo the echoes of it and and um the echo the echoes of it and and um the echo the echoes of it through history through history through history um and so to show it is um to show it will evoke a response either to show it will evoke a response either way and i'd be concerned if someone way and i'd be concerned if someone way and i'd be concerned if someone didn't have a response

didn't have a response didn't have a response to seeing it um and the same can be said to seeing it um and the same can be said to seeing it um and the same can be said for other symbols of course but the for other symbols of course but the for other symbols of course but the swastika swastika swastika is a uniquely um or a near uniquely is a uniquely um or a near uniquely is a uniquely um or a near uniquely um powerful one uh within the the time um powerful one uh within the the time um powerful one uh within the the time in history that we find ourselves in history that we find ourselves in history that we find ourselves from our perspective the the way that from our perspective the the way that from our perspective the the way that we've sort of we've sort of we've sort of felt about it is that um felt about it is that um felt about it is that um our purpose is as the type of game that our purpose is as the type of game that our purpose is as the type of game that we are we're not a single player game we are we're not a single player game we are we're not a single player game we're unable to tell story we're able to we're unable to tell story we're able to we're unable to tell story we're able to guide the player through narrative guide the player through narrative guide the player through narrative um means that we don't have the ability um means that we don't have the ability um means that we don't have the ability to kind of give it the proper context to kind of give it the proper context to kind of give it the proper context that we've you know that we think it it that we've you know that we think it it that we've you know that we think it it needs needs needs um and as a result we are happy to to um and as a result we are happy to to um and as a result we are happy to to slightly slightly slightly you know to obscure it uh within our you know to obscure it uh within our you know to obscure it uh within our game because we game because we game because we are focused at the end of the day the are focused at the end of the day the are focused at the end of the day the object of the game is to object of the game is to object of the game is to um maneuver across the battlefield using um maneuver across the battlefield using um maneuver across the battlefield using all the weaponry all the weaponry all the weaponry in the same uniforms both allied and in the same uniforms both allied and in the same uniforms both allied and axis forces axis forces axis forces in order to achieve a tactical strategic in order to achieve a tactical strategic in order to achieve a tactical strategic victory over the other force victory over the other force victory over the other force and so we felt that you know look this and so we felt that you know look this and so we felt that you know look this isn't this isn't if we're not going to isn't this isn't if we're not going to isn't this isn't if we're not going to attempt to tell attempt to tell attempt to tell the story at all then we're best to err the story at all then we're best to err the story at all then we're best to err on the side of caution on the side of caution on the side of caution um and maybe we might be wrong in that um and maybe we might be wrong in that um and maybe we might be wrong in that you know and i'm sure as well that many you know and i'm sure as well that many you know and i'm sure as well that many people will know that there's always a people will know that there's always a people will know that there's always a line where you can draw that i mean line where you can draw that i mean line where you can draw that i mean you could say why have them dressed up you could say why have them dressed up you could say why have them dressed up as as german soldiers at all as as german soldiers at all as as german soldiers at all or or you know um or or you know um or or you know um you know there's always a line and that you know there's always a line and that you know there's always a line and that is 100 is 100 is 100 i think subjective there's no objective i think subjective there's no objective i think subjective there's no objective rule to this and that's

rule to this and that's rule to this and that's that's extremely tough for us um because that's extremely tough for us um because that's extremely tough for us um because boy would life be easier if there was an boy would life be easier if there was an boy would life be easier if there was an objective rule objective rule objective rule um but yeah it is it is subjective and um but yeah it is it is subjective and um but yeah it is it is subjective and it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of the approach that we've taken is that if the approach that we've taken is that if the approach that we've taken is that if our object is is not to tell the full our object is is not to tell the full our object is is not to tell the full story story story of this um you know of this conflict of this um you know of this conflict of this um you know of this conflict ideologically um then ideologically um then ideologically um then you know i think we're better to er on you know i think we're better to er on you know i think we're better to er on the side of caution with this the side of caution with this the side of caution with this how does the user base feel i mean it's how does the user base feel i mean it's how does the user base feel i mean it's one thing for the people in the one thing for the people in the one thing for the people in the corporate uh corporate uh corporate uh side of things to worry about all these side of things to worry about all these side of things to worry about all these things because that's your job things because that's your job things because that's your job but the people who are only concerned but the people who are only concerned but the people who are only concerned with either the fun element with either the fun element with either the fun element or the competitive element or the or the competitive element or the or the competitive element or the historical element or all of those historical element or all of those historical element or all of those wrapped up together wrapped up together wrapped up together who give you the feedback on things you who give you the feedback on things you who give you the feedback on things you can change or things they're not happy can change or things they're not happy can change or things they're not happy with or what should be in the next with or what should be in the next with or what should be in the next version version version um do they have an opinion one way or um do they have an opinion one way or um do they have an opinion one way or the other i'm sure swastikas and hammers the other i'm sure swastikas and hammers the other i'm sure swastikas and hammers and sickles and all those kinds of and sickles and all those kinds of and sickles and all those kinds of things things things have been raised before is there is have been raised before is there is have been raised before is there is there an opinion out there one way or there an opinion out there one way or there an opinion out there one way or the other from them the other from them the other from them there's no i wouldn't say there's a there's no i wouldn't say there's a there's no i wouldn't say there's a majority opinion i would actually say majority opinion i would actually say majority opinion i would actually say that the historical the more historical that the historical the more historical that the historical the more historical uh or more historically oriented people uh or more historically oriented people uh or more historically oriented people i should say or the purest i should say or the purest i should say or the purest uh within our particular community um uh within our particular community um uh within our particular community um tend to focus much more on battlefield tend to focus much more on battlefield tend to focus much more on battlefield history rather than sort of ideological history rather than sort of ideological history rather than sort of ideological history history history um there are some people i would say um there are some people i would say um there are some people i would say it's probably less than one percent who it's probably less than one percent who it's probably less than one percent who are are are who who would really like to see it's who who would really like to see it's who who would really like to see it's very important to them that you capture very important to them that you capture very important to them that you capture the full the full the full um you know you capture the full picture um you know you capture the full picture um you know you capture the full picture with the inclusion of swastikas or the with the inclusion of swastikas or the with the inclusion of swastikas or the ss

ss ss but i would say actually that more of but i would say actually that more of but i would say actually that more of the historical the historical the historical feedback that we get is more around um feedback that we get is more around um feedback that we get is more around um some of the concessions we've had to some of the concessions we've had to some of the concessions we've had to make due to it being a video game make due to it being a video game make due to it being a video game rather than any kind of ideological rather than any kind of ideological rather than any kind of ideological censorship so censorship so censorship so the things that they're concerned with the things that they're concerned with the things that they're concerned with are more like exactly as you said the are more like exactly as you said the are more like exactly as you said the turret rotation speed on particular turret rotation speed on particular turret rotation speed on particular tanks tanks tanks um they're concerned about um within our um they're concerned about um within our um they're concerned about um within our game game game um uh we've had a preponderance of um uh we've had a preponderance of um uh we've had a preponderance of automatic weapons with that sorry we've automatic weapons with that sorry we've automatic weapons with that sorry we've had we've had probably a few too many had we've had probably a few too many had we've had probably a few too many automatic weapons automatic weapons automatic weapons on the side of the germans um at the on the side of the germans um at the on the side of the germans um at the unit level unit level unit level um which they would love us to kind of um which they would love us to kind of um which they would love us to kind of dial back and we're going to make a move dial back and we're going to make a move dial back and we're going to make a move to dial back and keep it more to dial back and keep it more to dial back and keep it more um focused around the car 98k which is um focused around the car 98k which is um focused around the car 98k which is the german the german the german bolt action rifle which was the weapon bolt action rifle which was the weapon bolt action rifle which was the weapon the majority of soldiers used so the majority of soldiers used so the majority of soldiers used so a lot of this a lot of the sort of a lot of this a lot of the sort of a lot of this a lot of the sort of historical oriented criticism historical oriented criticism historical oriented criticism i think um comes down to i think um comes down to i think um comes down to um more of the battlefield and the um more of the battlefield and the um more of the battlefield and the strategic and the tactical elements strategic and the tactical elements strategic and the tactical elements rather than anything kind of ideological rather than anything kind of ideological rather than anything kind of ideological which is you know which is interesting which is you know which is interesting which is you know which is interesting but i suppose um now that i think about but i suppose um now that i think about but i suppose um now that i think about it suiting to what we're actually trying it suiting to what we're actually trying it suiting to what we're actually trying to to to capture as an end outcome what's capture as an end outcome what's capture as an end outcome what's interesting is you wouldn't have any of interesting is you wouldn't have any of interesting is you wouldn't have any of these problems in the majority these problems in the majority these problems in the majority of conflicts in human history it's it's of conflicts in human history it's it's of conflicts in human history it's it's it's the nature of the second world war it's the nature of the second world war it's the nature of the second world war and maybe some of the and maybe some of the and maybe some of the uh the conflicts during the cold war uh the conflicts during the cold war uh the conflicts during the cold war that happened after that that happened after that that happened after that those are the only ones i can think of those are the only ones i can think of those are the only ones i can think of that would give you any trouble at all i that would give you any trouble at all i that would give you any trouble at all i mean if you're going back to genghis mean if you're going back to genghis mean if you're going back to genghis khan's conquest

khan's conquest khan's conquest none of this none of this enters into none of this none of this enters into none of this none of this enters into the equation at all so you're actually the equation at all so you're actually the equation at all so you're actually getting trapped getting trapped getting trapped in the creases of the leftover you know in the creases of the leftover you know in the creases of the leftover you know ideological and moral fumes of that ideological and moral fumes of that ideological and moral fumes of that conflict itself aren't you yeah conflict itself aren't you yeah conflict itself aren't you yeah exactly right i mean and you you know i exactly right i mean and you you know i exactly right i mean and you you know i never want to be insensitive i mean in never want to be insensitive i mean in never want to be insensitive i mean in so much as so much as so much as you're right like there aren't a lot of you're right like there aren't a lot of you're right like there aren't a lot of um um um sort of i think it was was it ancient sort of i think it was was it ancient sort of i think it was was it ancient mesopotamia or mesopotamia or mesopotamia or um the the location of modern day iraq um the the location of modern day iraq um the the location of modern day iraq that that genghis khan that that genghis khan that that genghis khan sacked uh he sacked a lot of places he sacked uh he sacked a lot of places he sacked uh he sacked a lot of places he [ __ ] a lot of places [ __ ] a lot of places [ __ ] a lot of places true he was he was if there was one true he was he was if there was one true he was he was if there was one thing he was very good at it was it was thing he was very good at it was it was thing he was very good at it was it was death death and destruction um but no i death death and destruction um but no i death death and destruction um but no i think i think you're right i think it's think i think you're right i think it's think i think you're right i think it's the proximity to this and i think also the proximity to this and i think also the proximity to this and i think also i mean even just in diving so much into i mean even just in diving so much into i mean even just in diving so much into the history the history the history we've really been so saturated in world we've really been so saturated in world we've really been so saturated in world war ii history there is something war ii history there is something war ii history there is something unique about the forces um unique about the forces um unique about the forces um at play i mean all of them are at play i mean all of them are at play i mean all of them are ideologically very different ideologically very different ideologically very different roughly sort of capitalist communist roughly sort of capitalist communist roughly sort of capitalist communist fascist um fascist um fascist um and i mean i there's just something and i mean i there's just something and i mean i there's just something um extremely um extremely um extremely uh not outlandish but eccentric uh not outlandish but eccentric uh not outlandish but eccentric about them and particularly the german about them and particularly the german about them and particularly the german forces naming their vehicles forces naming their vehicles forces naming their vehicles after sort of predatory animals it just after sort of predatory animals it just after sort of predatory animals it just the fact that the the this terrifying the fact that the the this terrifying the fact that the the this terrifying tank was called the tiger tank tank was called the tiger tank tank was called the tiger tank whereas sort of the americans obviously whereas sort of the americans obviously whereas sort of the americans obviously named them after generals um named them after generals um named them after generals um there were these these decisions that

there were these these decisions that there were these these decisions that heightened that ideological difference heightened that ideological difference heightened that ideological difference and then obviously you know the and then obviously you know the and then obviously you know the extremity of the nazi ideology and the extremity of the nazi ideology and the extremity of the nazi ideology and the extremity obviously you look at sort of extremity obviously you look at sort of extremity obviously you look at sort of um a lot of more and the famines within um a lot of more and the famines within um a lot of more and the famines within um um um soviet russia and it's it's just such a huge scale of human it's just such a huge scale of human suffering and it's such an suffering and it's such an suffering and it's such an it's such a recent um event it's such a recent um event it's such a recent um event really relative obviously to um khan really relative obviously to um khan really relative obviously to um khan that i think yeah we are we there's that i think yeah we are we there's that i think yeah we are we there's still you know sensitivity is required still you know sensitivity is required still you know sensitivity is required um to handle these issues but you're um to handle these issues but you're um to handle these issues but you're right i mean right i mean right i mean i think obviously people will have i think obviously people will have i think obviously people will have political differences about political differences about political differences about uh the us involvement in vietnam um uh the us involvement in vietnam um uh the us involvement in vietnam um and depicting a vietnam you know a and depicting a vietnam you know a and depicting a vietnam you know a vietnam war vietnam war vietnam war conflict but far far far less fraught conflict but far far far less fraught conflict but far far far less fraught and far far far less and far far far less and far far far less clear cut um on the surface than clear cut um on the surface than clear cut um on the surface than obviously world war ii it's obviously world war ii it's obviously world war ii it's it's a tough one it's an extremely tough it's a tough one it's an extremely tough it's a tough one it's an extremely tough one um one um one um and obviously all war to some degree uh and obviously all war to some degree uh and obviously all war to some degree uh you know you know you know and the way that we view them is written and the way that we view them is written and the way that we view them is written by the victors um by the victors um by the victors um but i think it's very difficult to say but i think it's very difficult to say but i think it's very difficult to say that um that um that um [Music] [Music] [Music] yeah it's it's very difficult to inject yeah it's it's very difficult to inject yeah it's it's very difficult to inject more nuance into a conversation about more nuance into a conversation about more nuance into a conversation about world war ii world war ii world war ii i think some people might say that those i think some people might say that those i think some people might say that those very questions are what makes it so very questions are what makes it so very questions are what makes it so compelling so i think compelling so i think compelling so i think i think that it's all wrapped up into i think that it's all wrapped up into i think that it's all wrapped up into this package that is the second world this package that is the second world this package that is the second world war and the fact that war and the fact that war and the fact that i had somebody say to me that they i had somebody say to me that they i had somebody say to me that they thought that the second world war was thought that the second world war was thought that the second world war was more interesting than the first world more interesting than the first world more interesting than the first world war war war specifically because of the ideological

specifically because of the ideological specifically because of the ideological questions that we were just discussing questions that we were just discussing questions that we were just discussing so before i let you go what i'd like to so before i let you go what i'd like to so before i let you go what i'd like to know uh just as a guy who's an expert in know uh just as a guy who's an expert in know uh just as a guy who's an expert in the field the field the field um i remember playing the art of ancient um i remember playing the art of ancient um i remember playing the art of ancient art of war in the 1980s art of war in the 1980s art of war in the 1980s and the difference between that and what and the difference between that and what and the difference between that and what you're putting out is is you're putting out is is you're putting out is is it's not one generation it's it's not one generation it's it's not one generation it's multi-generations where do you see this multi-generations where do you see this multi-generations where do you see this going in like 10 years 15 years any any going in like 10 years 15 years any any going in like 10 years 15 years any any any clues on what what lies around the any clues on what what lies around the any clues on what what lies around the uh the development bend uh the development bend uh the development bend look this is this is um i wouldn't say look this is this is um i wouldn't say look this is this is um i wouldn't say it's a million dollar question it's it's a million dollar question it's it's a million dollar question it's probably a trillion dollar question probably a trillion dollar question probably a trillion dollar question for the industry um and i think that you for the industry um and i think that you for the industry um and i think that you know depending on your outlook know depending on your outlook know depending on your outlook um it's either utopian or dystopian to um it's either utopian or dystopian to um it's either utopian or dystopian to some degree and obviously the truth some degree and obviously the truth some degree and obviously the truth nearly always lies somewhere in the nearly always lies somewhere in the nearly always lies somewhere in the middle middle middle um i think that we'll start to see uh um i think that we'll start to see uh um i think that we'll start to see uh virtual reality virtual reality virtual reality um come into play as i said earlier if um come into play as i said earlier if um come into play as i said earlier if they solve they solve they solve sort of the the delivery issue the sort of the the delivery issue the sort of the the delivery issue the ability for people to play it without ability for people to play it without ability for people to play it without having to pay a huge amount of money um having to pay a huge amount of money um having to pay a huge amount of money um we will very quickly start to see uh we will very quickly start to see uh we will very quickly start to see uh people playing our type of game in people playing our type of game in people playing our type of game in virtually in vr space virtually in vr space virtually in vr space in 3d moving your body around actually in 3d moving your body around actually in 3d moving your body around actually having to hold a weapon having to hold a weapon having to hold a weapon up i mean i think more generally and up i mean i think more generally and up i mean i think more generally and more broadly uh more broadly uh more broadly uh video games um uh video games um uh video games um uh is in an explosion of growth at the is in an explosion of growth at the is in an explosion of growth at the moment because moment because moment because um we're seeing a generation that grew um we're seeing a generation that grew um we're seeing a generation that grew up with them um up with them um up with them um age through the population uh so age through the population uh so age through the population uh so obviously you know obviously you know obviously you know um many generations uh currently never

um many generations uh currently never um many generations uh currently never ever had games when they were younger ever had games when they were younger ever had games when they were younger and we're seeing this and we're seeing this and we're seeing this we're seeing what it looks like for the we're seeing what it looks like for the we're seeing what it looks like for the first time for instance for first time for instance for first time for instance for um you know people of all ages for um you know people of all ages for um you know people of all ages for instance to read books instance to read books instance to read books you know and so much as there was a time you know and so much as there was a time you know and so much as there was a time a long time ago where books were the new a long time ago where books were the new a long time ago where books were the new thing thing thing um or television was a new thing or or um or television was a new thing or or um or television was a new thing or or film was the new thing film was the new thing film was the new thing and what we're seeing with video games and what we're seeing with video games and what we're seeing with video games is is um is is um is is um an advancing generation of people who an advancing generation of people who an advancing generation of people who grew up with them grew up with them grew up with them um and so i think that it's only going um and so i think that it's only going um and so i think that it's only going to get bigger to get bigger to get bigger but i also think that it it places huge but i also think that it it places huge but i also think that it it places huge you know burden of responsibility on you know burden of responsibility on you know burden of responsibility on people making these sort of digital people making these sort of digital people making these sort of digital environments environments environments um to safeguard or um to safeguard or um to safeguard or try and build systems that um try and build systems that um try and build systems that um people enjoy that don't exploit them people enjoy that don't exploit them people enjoy that don't exploit them that don't that don't that don't um you know trying to present the best um you know trying to present the best um you know trying to present the best form of entertainment that we can form of entertainment that we can form of entertainment that we can um in as ethical a way as we can um in as ethical a way as we can um in as ethical a way as we can and try and figure out what that looks and try and figure out what that looks and try and figure out what that looks like when more and more people's time is like when more and more people's time is like when more and more people's time is spent in these in these digital spent in these in these digital spent in these in these digital environments so environments so environments so um i know that sounds sort of very kind um i know that sounds sort of very kind um i know that sounds sort of very kind of um of um of um doom saying um if you think about it doom saying um if you think about it doom saying um if you think about it from the perspective of everyone from the perspective of everyone from the perspective of everyone spending tons and tons of hours spending tons and tons of hours spending tons and tons of hours playing video games but i also think playing video games but i also think playing video games but i also think that you know video games have that you know video games have that you know video games have um amazing potential to connect people um amazing potential to connect people um amazing potential to connect people who might be struggling who might be struggling who might be struggling um you know perhaps uh to make friends um you know perhaps uh to make friends um you know perhaps uh to make friends um in their physical surroundings people um in their physical surroundings people um in their physical surroundings people connect with each other online

connect with each other online connect with each other online they share great memories online they they share great memories online they they share great memories online they get to know each other more and more and get to know each other more and more and get to know each other more and more and more more more we're seeing virtual reality experiences we're seeing virtual reality experiences we're seeing virtual reality experiences enable people to exercise enable people to exercise enable people to exercise um within vr um within vr um within vr you know it's not uncommon now for um you know it's not uncommon now for um you know it's not uncommon now for um people to meet their future um people to meet their future um people to meet their future um husband and wife or partner online uh in husband and wife or partner online uh in husband and wife or partner online uh in games games games so it is extremely varied um and it's so it is extremely varied um and it's so it is extremely varied um and it's and i think it's all moving faster than and i think it's all moving faster than and i think it's all moving faster than anyone can really keep up with anyone can really keep up with anyone can really keep up with uh but i definitely think that vr is uh but i definitely think that vr is uh but i definitely think that vr is probably the place to watch because probably the place to watch because probably the place to watch because um as soon as if anyone's ever tried um as soon as if anyone's ever tried um as soon as if anyone's ever tried that that that it's it's quite an experience and it can it's it's quite an experience and it can it's it's quite an experience and it can often trick you um often trick you um often trick you um psychologically your eyes can kind of psychologically your eyes can kind of psychologically your eyes can kind of deceive you obviously deceive you obviously deceive you obviously um and it'll be very very interesting to um and it'll be very very interesting to um and it'll be very very interesting to see what kind of experiences move into see what kind of experiences move into see what kind of experiences move into into vr whether you know shooting games into vr whether you know shooting games into vr whether you know shooting games or whether it's strategy games i mean or whether it's strategy games i mean or whether it's strategy games i mean it'll be all of them but it'll be all of them but it'll be all of them but but which really pick up with with um but which really pick up with with um but which really pick up with with um the players so the players so the players so look it's it's um yeah it's it's a big look it's it's um yeah it's it's a big look it's it's um yeah it's it's a big road ahead road ahead road ahead uh and i just uh you know i'll be uh and i just uh you know i'll be uh and i just uh you know i'll be working working working and i think many people will to try and and i think many people will to try and and i think many people will to try and um um um make it the best experience possible make it the best experience possible make it the best experience possible whatever whatever that looks like whatever whatever that looks like whatever whatever that looks like i think this this blends nicely into the i think this this blends nicely into the i think this this blends nicely into the into the overall question of the into the overall question of the into the overall question of the development of war games in the modern development of war games in the modern development of war games in the modern era era era and if you could have told me in the mid and if you could have told me in the mid and if you could have told me in the mid 1970s that someday 1970s that someday 1970s that someday this would be i mean like i said i went this would be i mean like i said i went this would be i mean like i said i went and bought a computer just so i could

and bought a computer just so i could and bought a computer just so i could play a game that looks like it's play a game that looks like it's play a game that looks like it's tic-tac-toe tic-tac-toe tic-tac-toe compared to the games out there now so compared to the games out there now so compared to the games out there now so um um um i appreciate you taking the time to i appreciate you taking the time to i appreciate you taking the time to answer these really tough questions and answer these really tough questions and answer these really tough questions and to bring us sort of into the development to bring us sort of into the development to bring us sort of into the development room a little bit room a little bit room a little bit and help us understand the kinds of uh and help us understand the kinds of uh and help us understand the kinds of uh things that you guys were talking over things that you guys were talking over things that you guys were talking over and i can speak from experience that and i can speak from experience that and i can speak from experience that that was exact same kinds of that was exact same kinds of that was exact same kinds of conversations we had designing the first conversations we had designing the first conversations we had designing the first world war game is world war game is world war game is is these trade-offs these morally is these trade-offs these morally is these trade-offs these morally ambiguous areas ambiguous areas ambiguous areas how you portray negative things and how how you portray negative things and how how you portray negative things and how how faithful you have to be to stuff so how faithful you have to be to stuff so how faithful you have to be to stuff so that you're not that you're not that you're not so that you're not giving a fake or or so that you're not giving a fake or or so that you're not giving a fake or or uh imprecise or uh imprecise or uh imprecise or or um or or something that that's or um or or something that that's or um or or something that that's that's a fantasy of a reality if that that's a fantasy of a reality if that that's a fantasy of a reality if that makes sense showing something that makes sense showing something that makes sense showing something that that's actually that's actually that's actually a fantasy game portraying itself as a fantasy game portraying itself as a fantasy game portraying itself as history and i think trying to get it history and i think trying to get it history and i think trying to get it right right right is actually the key to the whole thing is actually the key to the whole thing is actually the key to the whole thing uh the one thing we didn't talk about uh the one thing we didn't talk about uh the one thing we didn't talk about and that's worth just bringing up here and that's worth just bringing up here and that's worth just bringing up here at the very end at the very end at the very end is the interplay between all of the is the interplay between all of the is the interplay between all of the other people one of the things you'd other people one of the things you'd other people one of the things you'd mentioned to me mentioned to me mentioned to me was the fact that a lot of people in was the fact that a lot of people in was the fact that a lot of people in this game are actually not tip of this game are actually not tip of this game are actually not tip of the spear people but you're actually the spear people but you're actually the spear people but you're actually showing uh how many people are involved showing uh how many people are involved showing uh how many people are involved in keeping in keeping in keeping the logistics going and all the that you the logistics going and all the that you the logistics going and all the that you know you'd mention teamwork and i think know you'd mention teamwork and i think know you'd mention teamwork and i think that conjures up this idea of that conjures up this idea of that conjures up this idea of okay i'll go around this hill you go okay i'll go around this hill you go okay i'll go around this hill you go around this other side but you've around this other side but you've around this other side but you've actually got people actually got people actually got people sort of operating in the supply chain sort of operating in the supply chain sort of operating in the supply chain too don't you too don't you too don't you yeah that's right that's that's exactly yeah that's right that's that's exactly yeah that's right that's that's exactly right i mean i think as i right i mean i think as i right i mean i think as i sort of said a little bit earlier about sort of said a little bit earlier about sort of said a little bit earlier about this sort of aging this sort of aging this sort of aging um generation of gamers i mean myself

um generation of gamers i mean myself um generation of gamers i mean myself being being being being right there um you know when being right there um you know when being right there um you know when you're younger you're you're you're younger you're you're you're younger you're you're you're extremely good at you know um you're extremely good at you know um you're extremely good at you know um twitch mechanics of your your twitch twitch mechanics of your your twitch twitch mechanics of your your twitch fibers the muscles fibers the muscles fibers the muscles enable you to track things with your enable you to track things with your enable you to track things with your hand to eye coordination at a hand to eye coordination at a hand to eye coordination at a incredible rate um and so a lot of video incredible rate um and so a lot of video incredible rate um and so a lot of video games games games you know uh were thought to be sort of you know uh were thought to be sort of you know uh were thought to be sort of the fear of just the fear of just the fear of just of young people and then you sort of of young people and then you sort of of young people and then you sort of grow out of them and what we've kind of grow out of them and what we've kind of grow out of them and what we've kind of seen seen seen um is that as as gamers have aged um is that as as gamers have aged um is that as as gamers have aged um the types of things that stimulate us um the types of things that stimulate us um the types of things that stimulate us and interest us and interest us and interest us sort of age with us obviously which sort of age with us obviously which sort of age with us obviously which seems obvious now but i don't think seems obvious now but i don't think seems obvious now but i don't think but i don't think it has been really um but i don't think it has been really um but i don't think it has been really um and so as a result of this and so as a result of this and so as a result of this you've started to see an uptick in in you've started to see an uptick in in you've started to see an uptick in in games games games like ours and so much as we move the like ours and so much as we move the like ours and so much as we move the experience away from just the experience away from just the experience away from just the hand-to-eye coordination the success of hand-to-eye coordination the success of hand-to-eye coordination the success of that that that um to sort of strategy um to sort of strategy um to sort of strategy planning talking to one another planning talking to one another planning talking to one another communicating um communicating um communicating um and and really waiting success more and and really waiting success more and and really waiting success more towards that so yeah for instance in our towards that so yeah for instance in our towards that so yeah for instance in our game you can sort of drive supplies game you can sort of drive supplies game you can sort of drive supplies around around around um most of the game drop supplies off um most of the game drop supplies off um most of the game drop supplies off people can build infrastructure people can build infrastructure people can build infrastructure you know and as we know um all wars are you know and as we know um all wars are you know and as we know um all wars are fought fought fought by the people in the rear echelon by the by the people in the rear echelon by the by the people in the rear echelon by the the supply chain is the red bull express the supply chain is the red bull express the supply chain is the red bull express i think was the famous i think was the famous i think was the famous uh yes the u.s uh supply chain with uh yes the u.s uh supply chain with uh yes the u.s uh supply chain with the gmc trucks um and so i mean the gmc trucks um and so i mean the gmc trucks um and so i mean also i mean it ties nicely into sort of also i mean it ties nicely into sort of also i mean it ties nicely into sort of where we think this will go i wouldn't where we think this will go i wouldn't where we think this will go i wouldn't be shocked to see these systems expand

be shocked to see these systems expand be shocked to see these systems expand so so so you may end up um you know delivering you may end up um you know delivering you may end up um you know delivering ammunition or driving supplies or ammunition or driving supplies or ammunition or driving supplies or giving ranges to the artillery and never giving ranges to the artillery and never giving ranges to the artillery and never even firing your weapon you might use a even firing your weapon you might use a even firing your weapon you might use a binoculars to spot uh targets for the binoculars to spot uh targets for the binoculars to spot uh targets for the artillery artillery artillery um and so this is sort of the way that um and so this is sort of the way that um and so this is sort of the way that the genre is expanding as well the genre is expanding as well the genre is expanding as well um in so much as people really using um in so much as people really using um in so much as people really using sort of their grey matter instead of sort of their grey matter instead of sort of their grey matter instead of just sort of muscle just sort of muscle just sort of muscle and reflex and reaction um which i think and reflex and reaction um which i think and reflex and reaction um which i think is is is you know i think is really exciting i you know i think is really exciting i you know i think is really exciting i mean as you know mean as you know mean as you know uh so few people in war actually uh so few people in war actually uh so few people in war actually proportionally fired their weapon in proportionally fired their weapon in proportionally fired their weapon in anger at the enemy um anger at the enemy um anger at the enemy um and so i think it's kind of interesting and so i think it's kind of interesting and so i think it's kind of interesting from a historical perspective to from a historical perspective to from a historical perspective to it's certainly a far more realistic it's certainly a far more realistic it's certainly a far more realistic picture to show that people actually had picture to show that people actually had picture to show that people actually had to deliver the ammo to the front line to deliver the ammo to the front line to deliver the ammo to the front line troops i can't remember what the stat troops i can't remember what the stat troops i can't remember what the stat was i think it was something like was i think it was something like was i think it was something like 15 percent of frontline of troops made 15 percent of frontline of troops made 15 percent of frontline of troops made up the front line up the front line up the front line it's different it's different in every it's different it's different in every it's different it's different in every army yes 17 to 1 in the us in the second army yes 17 to 1 in the us in the second army yes 17 to 1 in the us in the second world war i think it was world war i think it was world war i think it was um you got me it's funny though you got um you got me it's funny though you got um you got me it's funny though you got me thinking of things i never thought me thinking of things i never thought me thinking of things i never thought about which is about which is about which is for example uh that my generation for example uh that my generation for example uh that my generation probably that's probably a good age probably that's probably a good age probably that's probably a good age i'm 55. we're the first generation who i'm 55. we're the first generation who i'm 55. we're the first generation who ever grew up with video games and so how ever grew up with video games and so how ever grew up with video games and so how do you write video games to intrigue 55 do you write video games to intrigue 55 do you write video games to intrigue 55 year olds you know year olds you know year olds you know it's a whole different thing than anyone it's a whole different thing than anyone it's a whole different thing than anyone had to worry about in the old days when had to worry about in the old days when had to worry about in the old days when nobody over a certain age played nobody over a certain age played nobody over a certain age played computer games so um computer games so um computer games so um well fascinating future uh in in the well fascinating future uh in in the well fascinating future uh in in the offing for the uh offing for the uh offing for the uh for the for the design for geriatric for the for the design for geriatric for the for the design for geriatric video games well

video games well video games well well you say that but i mean that that's well you say that but i mean that that's well you say that but i mean that that's really what i'm thinking about i mean i really what i'm thinking about i mean i really what i'm thinking about i mean i think it could be think it could be think it could be it i don't want to say it too soon but it i don't want to say it too soon but it i don't want to say it too soon but it could be a very bright future for it could be a very bright future for it could be a very bright future for people people people you know for for i think you know you you know for for i think you know you you know for for i think you know you look at sort of look at sort of look at sort of um uh elderly people and um uh elderly people and um uh elderly people and and obviously um isolation is is and obviously um isolation is is and obviously um isolation is is um tragic and is really difficult for um tragic and is really difficult for um tragic and is really difficult for elderly people it's difficult for elderly people it's difficult for elderly people it's difficult for everyone and everyone and everyone and obviously even more so um for elderly obviously even more so um for elderly obviously even more so um for elderly people people people and i do wonder what um and i do wonder what um and i do wonder what um the experience of being an elderly the experience of being an elderly the experience of being an elderly person would be like if i was in person would be like if i was in person would be like if i was in constant communication with a group of constant communication with a group of constant communication with a group of friends friends friends a buddy of mine once said we're never a buddy of mine once said we're never a buddy of mine once said we're never going to be the isolated older people in going to be the isolated older people in going to be the isolated older people in the rest home we're going to have the rest home we're going to have the rest home we're going to have much more to do than people who just much more to do than people who just much more to do than people who just stared out the window all day stared out the window all day stared out the window all day i don't know if that's true but i don't know if that's true but i don't know if that's true but certainly with things like this you certainly with things like this you certainly with things like this you could see that this doesn't have to be could see that this doesn't have to be could see that this doesn't have to be anything anything anything that you ever have to give up entirely that you ever have to give up entirely that you ever have to give up entirely necessarily if your health if you if necessarily if your health if you if necessarily if your health if you if your health will let you do it your health will let you do it your health will let you do it um exactly yeah max thank you so much um exactly yeah max thank you so much um exactly yeah max thank you so much for coming on the program i wish you for coming on the program i wish you for coming on the program i wish you uh continued success with this it's a uh continued success with this it's a uh continued success with this it's a heck of an achievement just to see heck of an achievement just to see heck of an achievement just to see visually what you're talking about here visually what you're talking about here visually what you're talking about here and certainly to work through all of the and certainly to work through all of the and certainly to work through all of the ins and outs of the questions we've been ins and outs of the questions we've been ins and outs of the questions we've been discussing here um thank you so much for discussing here um thank you so much for discussing here um thank you so much for coming on the show coming on the show coming on the show oh thanks so much dan and i mean just a oh thanks so much dan and i mean just a oh thanks so much dan and i mean just a huge huge fan so this is just a huge huge fan so this is just a huge huge fan so this is just a wonderful wonderful wonderful wonderful chance and and fantastic wonderful chance and and fantastic wonderful chance and and fantastic questions and a great chat thank you so questions and a great chat thank you so questions and a great chat thank you so much for having me on much for having me on much for having me on anytime take care buddy that was a fun anytime take care buddy that was a fun anytime take care buddy that was a fun trip

trip trip sort of down war gaming memory lane for sort of down war gaming memory lane for sort of down war gaming memory lane for me me me uh if you were interested by the way in uh if you were interested by the way in uh if you were interested by the way in hell let loose want to know more about hell let loose want to know more about hell let loose want to know more about it you can go to hellletloose.com it you can go to hellletloose.com it you can go to hellletloose.com and uh i said when we started the and uh i said when we started the and uh i said when we started the hardcore history addendum feed that we hardcore history addendum feed that we hardcore history addendum feed that we were going to be able to use it as a way were going to be able to use it as a way were going to be able to use it as a way to to to uh try to explore some more of these his uh try to explore some more of these his uh try to explore some more of these his history-related tangents at times or history-related tangents at times or history-related tangents at times or very very very sort of niche history for example i am sort of niche history for example i am sort of niche history for example i am going to do a boxing show someday i'm going to do a boxing show someday i'm going to do a boxing show someday i'm going to do a punk rock show someday going to do a punk rock show someday going to do a punk rock show someday and i realize that's not sort of an and i realize that's not sort of an and i realize that's not sort of an appeal to the entire audience but i'm appeal to the entire audience but i'm appeal to the entire audience but i'm hoping that when hoping that when hoping that when we someday have an archive i don't know we someday have an archive i don't know we someday have an archive i don't know how old i'll have to be given my release how old i'll have to be given my release how old i'll have to be given my release pace but an archive of a bunch of pace but an archive of a bunch of pace but an archive of a bunch of hardcore history addendum shows hardcore history addendum shows hardcore history addendum shows some will be crowd pleasers across the some will be crowd pleasers across the some will be crowd pleasers across the board and others will be these ones board and others will be these ones board and others will be these ones where where where you know you probably would skip by but you know you probably would skip by but you know you probably would skip by but a person who's really interested in that a person who's really interested in that a person who's really interested in that subject would be subject would be subject would be really jacked to have a conversation you really jacked to have a conversation you really jacked to have a conversation you know we we always used to joke know we we always used to joke know we we always used to joke that there's no place in broadcasting that there's no place in broadcasting that there's no place in broadcasting for for for people who are interested in 1950s people who are interested in 1950s people who are interested in 1950s spanish spanish spanish language science fiction comic books but language science fiction comic books but language science fiction comic books but if somebody did a podcast or a show if somebody did a podcast or a show if somebody did a podcast or a show about that you know how jacked they'd be about that you know how jacked they'd be about that you know how jacked they'd be to have something to have something to have something so narrowly targeted to their interests so narrowly targeted to their interests so narrowly targeted to their interests so i kind of feel like i want to throw so i kind of feel like i want to throw so i kind of feel like i want to throw some of those shows into the addendum some of those shows into the addendum some of those shows into the addendum feed feed feed in any case if you want to stay on top in any case if you want to stay on top in any case if you want to stay on top of of of whenever we manage to get something out whenever we manage to get something out whenever we manage to get something out make sure you follow us on make sure you follow us on make sure you follow us on uh twitter at hardcore history and i uh twitter at hardcore history and i uh twitter at hardcore history and i hope to be talking to you all again soon hope to be talking to you all again soon hope to be talking to you all again soon stay safe everyone don't forget you can buy and instantly

don't forget you can buy and instantly download past episodes of classic download past episodes of classic download past episodes of classic hardcore history right from the website hardcore history right from the website hardcore history right from the website go to dan carlin.com to get the shows