EP31 Kushite Conversations

[Music] [Music] it's Hardcore History so I've been looking for someone History so I've been looking for someone to talk with to talk with to talk with me about the ancient Kingdom of kou for me about the ancient Kingdom of kou for me about the ancient Kingdom of kou for years the good news is I finally found years the good news is I finally found years the good news is I finally found the perfect person to do that and I'm the perfect person to do that and I'm the perfect person to do that and I'm having them on the show today the bad having them on the show today the bad having them on the show today the bad news is this person has actually written news is this person has actually written news is this person has actually written a brand new book that encompasses the a brand new book that encompasses the a brand new book that encompasses the entire history of Africa basically from entire history of Africa basically from entire history of Africa basically from the beginning to recent times from top the beginning to recent times from top the beginning to recent times from top to bottom side to side and I'm going to to bottom side to side and I'm going to to bottom side to side and I'm going to monopolize the conversation to talk monopolize the conversation to talk monopolize the conversation to talk about this one region and this one era about this one region and this one era about this one region and this one era so I apologize for all the stuff you're so I apologize for all the stuff you're so I apologize for all the stuff you're not going to get today that's in the not going to get today that's in the not going to get today that's in the book uh that we could have touched upon book uh that we could have touched upon book uh that we could have touched upon but I've been trying for years to get but I've been trying for years to get but I've been trying for years to get somebody on this show to talk about this somebody on this show to talk about this somebody on this show to talk about this little pet issue of mine so I'm afraid little pet issue of mine so I'm afraid little pet issue of mine so I'm afraid not only do I monopolize the not only do I monopolize the not only do I monopolize the conversation on the subject but I dive conversation on the subject but I dive conversation on the subject but I dive right into it and don't give background right into it and don't give background right into it and don't give background so let me do a little of that real so let me do a little of that real so let me do a little of that real quickly so that we know what we're discussing the kingdom of kush is a discussing the kingdom of kush is a kingdom that's located um well it starts kingdom that's located um well it starts kingdom that's located um well it starts in ancient Egyptian times it's a in ancient Egyptian times it's a in ancient Egyptian times it's a contemporary it's really the next door contemporary it's really the next door contemporary it's really the next door neighbor of the ancient Egyptians back neighbor of the ancient Egyptians back neighbor of the ancient Egyptians back to prehistoric times their relationship to prehistoric times their relationship to prehistoric times their relationship is as close as close can is as close as close can is as close as close can be you can see um carvings of the troops be you can see um carvings of the troops be you can see um carvings of the troops of some some of these pharaohs from the of some some of these pharaohs from the of some some of these pharaohs from the Old Kingdom that are buried with them

Old Kingdom that are buried with them Old Kingdom that are buried with them and you know Old Kingdom pharaohs you're and you know Old Kingdom pharaohs you're and you know Old Kingdom pharaohs you're talking 2300 2400 BCE 2200 BCE really talking 2300 2400 BCE 2200 BCE really talking 2300 2400 BCE 2200 BCE really old stuff Old Kingdom right uh but in old stuff Old Kingdom right uh but in old stuff Old Kingdom right uh but in their tombs you can see kushite soldiers their tombs you can see kushite soldiers their tombs you can see kushite soldiers in their armies already and already in their armies already and already in their armies already and already famous for the weapon that they are famous for the weapon that they are famous for the weapon that they are known for this is the uh land the known for this is the uh land the known for this is the uh land the kushites or Kush where they're from was kushites or Kush where they're from was kushites or Kush where they're from was often called the land of the bow and in often called the land of the bow and in often called the land of the bow and in the old Kingdom Pharaoh tombs there they the old Kingdom Pharaoh tombs there they the old Kingdom Pharaoh tombs there they are armed with their are armed with their are armed with their bows thousands of years later Herodotus bows thousands of years later Herodotus bows thousands of years later Herodotus describing the great king of Persia's describing the great king of Persia's describing the great king of Persia's Army and trying to emphasize the Army and trying to emphasize the Army and trying to emphasize the exoticness and the far-flung nature of exoticness and the far-flung nature of exoticness and the far-flung nature of his Empire and all the troops that he his Empire and all the troops that he his Empire and all the troops that he could call upon he talks about a could call upon he talks about a could call upon he talks about a contingent from a place he calls contingent from a place he calls contingent from a place he calls Ethiopia which is what the Greeks called Ethiopia which is what the Greeks called Ethiopia which is what the Greeks called the region um that's Now sort of Sudan the region um that's Now sort of Sudan the region um that's Now sort of Sudan and that encompasses the kushite people and that encompasses the kushite people and that encompasses the kushite people and he describes their soldiers and he describes their soldiers and he describes their soldiers similarly says that they are black similarly says that they are black similarly says that they are black skinned that they paint their body in skinned that they paint their body in skinned that they paint their body in war paint from top to bottom I think it war paint from top to bottom I think it war paint from top to bottom I think it was one half red and one half white and was one half red and one half white and was one half red and one half white and that they are carrying their bows that that they are carrying their bows that that they are carrying their bows that are as long as a are as long as a are as long as a man they had a reputation for shooting man they had a reputation for shooting man they had a reputation for shooting at the eyes of their opponent and one at the eyes of their opponent and one at the eyes of their opponent and one can imagine that that must have been can imagine that that must have been can imagine that that must have been something that earned you a lot of Kudos something that earned you a lot of Kudos something that earned you a lot of Kudos with your you know fellow Warriors I with your you know fellow Warriors I with your you know fellow Warriors I mean oh my God he got got the eye right mean oh my God he got got the eye right mean oh my God he got got the eye right he shot at the guy's eye and he got it I he shot at the guy's eye and he got it I he shot at the guy's eye and he got it I mean that's what you're aiming for and mean that's what you're aiming for and mean that's what you're aiming for and the arrows are supposedly poisonous

the arrows are supposedly poisonous the arrows are supposedly poisonous that's quite a reputation to have from that's quite a reputation to have from that's quite a reputation to have from thousands of years thousands of years thousands of years ago now I discovered the cushites ago now I discovered the cushites ago now I discovered the cushites because a person who gamed who War gamed because a person who gamed who War gamed because a person who gamed who War gamed at the shop where I War gamed had an at the shop where I War gamed had an at the shop where I War gamed had an army uh that attracted all of our army uh that attracted all of our army uh that attracted all of our attention it was it was a fascinating attention it was it was a fascinating attention it was it was a fascinating Army that on the surface looked like a Army that on the surface looked like a Army that on the surface looked like a standard biblical Egyptian Army so standard biblical Egyptian Army so standard biblical Egyptian Army so chariots a pharaoh chariots a pharaoh chariots a pharaoh uh the soldiers in those traditional uh the soldiers in those traditional uh the soldiers in those traditional ancient Egyptian you know outfits and ancient Egyptian you know outfits and ancient Egyptian you know outfits and carrying sickle swords and all that kind carrying sickle swords and all that kind carrying sickle swords and all that kind of stuff I mean very sort of an iconic of stuff I mean very sort of an iconic of stuff I mean very sort of an iconic Army of ramies or tmos or Alman hotep Army of ramies or tmos or Alman hotep Army of ramies or tmos or Alman hotep Nefertiti King Tut the whole Nefertiti King Tut the whole Nefertiti King Tut the whole thing but this guy had thing but this guy had thing but this guy had painted most of the soldiers in the Army painted most of the soldiers in the Army painted most of the soldiers in the Army painted his miniature figurines um with painted his miniature figurines um with painted his miniature figurines um with black skin as though they were from black skin as though they were from black skin as though they were from Sudan right not looking like Sudan right not looking like Sudan right not looking like Mediterranean Coastal figures at Mediterranean Coastal figures at Mediterranean Coastal figures at all um I thought Trayvon at the time was all um I thought Trayvon at the time was all um I thought Trayvon at the time was trying to make a political statement I trying to make a political statement I trying to make a political statement I was 14 15 whatever I was at the time and was 14 15 whatever I was at the time and was 14 15 whatever I was at the time and U it was normal for people to have some U it was normal for people to have some U it was normal for people to have some sort of an opinion on the ethnicity of sort of an opinion on the ethnicity of sort of an opinion on the ethnicity of ancient Egyptians and there were people ancient Egyptians and there were people ancient Egyptians and there were people that were claiming listen this is an that were claiming listen this is an that were claiming listen this is an African society these are these are African society these are these are African society these are these are black black black folks and I thought that's what Trayvon folks and I thought that's what Trayvon folks and I thought that's what Trayvon was doing but that's not what he was was doing but that's not what he was was doing but that's not what he was doing he explained to me that this Army doing he explained to me that this Army doing he explained to me that this Army represented the army of Egypt's 25th represented the army of Egypt's 25th represented the army of Egypt's 25th Dynasty Dynasty Dynasty the 25th Dynasty is the black pharaoh the 25th Dynasty is the black pharaoh the 25th Dynasty is the black pharaoh black African queen dynasty of Egypt and

black African queen dynasty of Egypt and black African queen dynasty of Egypt and it goes on for several pharaohs I've it goes on for several pharaohs I've it goes on for several pharaohs I've never understood the arguments we'll never understood the arguments we'll never understood the arguments we'll have over Cleopatra's ethnicity or you have over Cleopatra's ethnicity or you have over Cleopatra's ethnicity or you know uh Napoleon shooting the nose off know uh Napoleon shooting the nose off know uh Napoleon shooting the nose off the Sphinx because he doesn't want us to the Sphinx because he doesn't want us to the Sphinx because he doesn't want us to know that um you know that there's an know that um you know that there's an know that um you know that there's an African a subsaharan African history African a subsaharan African history African a subsaharan African history connection to Egypt and I've never connection to Egypt and I've never connection to Egypt and I've never understood trying to reach for it in understood trying to reach for it in understood trying to reach for it in those kinds of situations when it's those kinds of situations when it's those kinds of situations when it's right there in front of us staring us right there in front of us staring us right there in front of us staring us right in the face and there should be a right in the face and there should be a right in the face and there should be a movie made about it the 25th dynasty of movie made about it the 25th dynasty of movie made about it the 25th dynasty of Egypt's fascinating and that's why I've Egypt's fascinating and that's why I've Egypt's fascinating and that's why I've been into it for so long it's a hard been into it for so long it's a hard been into it for so long it's a hard subject for an American to study or at subject for an American to study or at subject for an American to study or at least it has been throughout most of the least it has been throughout most of the least it has been throughout most of the time I've been interested in time I've been interested in time I've been interested in it I'll give you an example of what I it I'll give you an example of what I it I'll give you an example of what I mean um I've probably been interested in mean um I've probably been interested in mean um I've probably been interested in the subject since 81 1981 1982 in there the subject since 81 1981 1982 in there the subject since 81 1981 1982 in there in 1996 I bought a book and remember in 1996 I bought a book and remember in 1996 I bought a book and remember this is the time period where you kind this is the time period where you kind this is the time period where you kind of have to have the book be in the of have to have the book be in the of have to have the book be in the bookstore when you're there um by bookstore when you're there um by bookstore when you're there um by archaeologist derck a wsby and the book archaeologist derck a wsby and the book archaeologist derck a wsby and the book was called the kingdom of kush and to was called the kingdom of kush and to was called the kingdom of kush and to give you an idea and by the way welby's give you an idea and by the way welby's give you an idea and by the way welby's gone on to add tons of knowledge to what gone on to add tons of knowledge to what gone on to add tons of knowledge to what we know about the kushite people since we know about the kushite people since we know about the kushite people since this time period but when this book came this time period but when this book came this time period but when this book came out on the back cover it says this the out on the back cover it says this the out on the back cover it says this the kingdom of kush this book illuminates kingdom of kush this book illuminates kingdom of kush this book illuminates all that is known about this fascinating all that is known about this fascinating all that is known about this fascinating people and their history end quote let people and their history end quote let people and their history end quote let the record show that when you take out the record show that when you take out the record show that when you take out the color plates the bibliography the the color plates the bibliography the the color plates the bibliography the notes and the index it's about 180 pages

notes and the index it's about 180 pages notes and the index it's about 180 pages of text all that is known and that's 28 of text all that is known and that's 28 of text all that is known and that's 28 years ago well a lot more is known than years ago well a lot more is known than years ago well a lot more is known than was known then um Professor wisby was known then um Professor wisby was known then um Professor wisby contributed to that but so have a lot of contributed to that but so have a lot of contributed to that but so have a lot of other people now what I like about the other people now what I like about the other people now what I like about the author that we're going to talk about author that we're going to talk about author that we're going to talk about this stuff with today is that she goes this stuff with today is that she goes this stuff with today is that she goes to to these places on the ground and to to these places on the ground and to to these places on the ground and gets information from the people there gets information from the people there gets information from the people there that is an intergral part of the story that is an intergral part of the story that is an intergral part of the story that has been missing from the that has been missing from the that has been missing from the international narrative I'm sure it international narrative I'm sure it international narrative I'm sure it hasn't been missing from these countries hasn't been missing from these countries hasn't been missing from these countries specifically but she gets their part of specifically but she gets their part of specifically but she gets their part of the story and I know I've used this the story and I know I've used this the story and I know I've used this metaphor before but uh a lot of people metaphor before but uh a lot of people metaphor before but uh a lot of people Yours Truly included sort of see um Yours Truly included sort of see um Yours Truly included sort of see um history as a kind of a history as a kind of a history as a kind of a mosaic and it's the individual tiles mosaic and it's the individual tiles mosaic and it's the individual tiles that get added to it that make what that get added to it that make what that get added to it that make what you're looking at more and more you're looking at more and more you're looking at more and more clear and give more Dimensions to it clear and give more Dimensions to it clear and give more Dimensions to it right more perspective a 360 degree view right more perspective a 360 degree view right more perspective a 360 degree view of things um and what this author does of things um and what this author does of things um and what this author does by going to these areas talking to the by going to these areas talking to the by going to these areas talking to the local historians the local curators of local historians the local curators of local historians the local curators of the museums uh the oral the museums uh the oral the museums uh the oral storytellers is that she's adding these storytellers is that she's adding these storytellers is that she's adding these other tiles that have been missing to a other tiles that have been missing to a other tiles that have been missing to a mosaic mosaic mosaic that's already been missing a lot of that's already been missing a lot of that's already been missing a lot of tiles for a long time I mean when welsby tiles for a long time I mean when welsby tiles for a long time I mean when welsby writing that book in 1996 he can cover writing that book in 1996 he can cover writing that book in 1996 he can cover the whole thing in 180 pages so not only

the whole thing in 180 pages so not only the whole thing in 180 pages so not only are we getting a lot more tiles that are we getting a lot more tiles that are we getting a lot more tiles that people like archaeologists are adding people like archaeologists are adding people like archaeologists are adding we're getting these tiles that authors we're getting these tiles that authors we're getting these tiles that authors like Zay AB badawi is adding where she's like Zay AB badawi is adding where she's like Zay AB badawi is adding where she's talking to the people from these places talking to the people from these places talking to the people from these places and getting you know their perspective and getting you know their perspective and getting you know their perspective um Zan AB badawi if you've not seen her um Zan AB badawi if you've not seen her um Zan AB badawi if you've not seen her work on the BBC go to YouTube or work on the BBC go to YouTube or work on the BBC go to YouTube or somewhere like that and see it it's somewhere like that and see it it's somewhere like that and see it it's fantastic um she is a wonderful uh fantastic um she is a wonderful uh fantastic um she is a wonderful uh transmitter of this information in this transmitter of this information in this transmitter of this information in this knowledge and this perspective from the knowledge and this perspective from the knowledge and this perspective from the region that just adds critical pieces to region that just adds critical pieces to region that just adds critical pieces to this story her new book is called an this story her new book is called an this story her new book is called an African history of Africa from the dawn African history of Africa from the dawn African history of Africa from the dawn of humanity to Independence it is of humanity to Independence it is of humanity to Independence it is already a number one international already a number one international already a number one international bestseller uh it is released uh I think bestseller uh it is released uh I think bestseller uh it is released uh I think it's January 14th 2025 so right around it's January 14th 2025 so right around it's January 14th 2025 so right around the time this is probably going to be the time this is probably going to be the time this is probably going to be released her credentials are as long as released her credentials are as long as released her credentials are as long as my arm uh but besides being an my arm uh but besides being an my arm uh but besides being an award-winning filmmaker journalist award-winning filmmaker journalist award-winning filmmaker journalist broadcaster uh she is the president of broadcaster uh she is the president of broadcaster uh she is the president of the University of London's School of the University of London's School of the University of London's School of Oriental and African studies she is the Oriental and African studies she is the Oriental and African studies she is the previous chair of the royal African previous chair of the royal African previous chair of the royal African society she's the recipient of the society she's the recipient of the society she's the recipient of the president's medal of the British Academy president's medal of the British Academy president's medal of the British Academy I mean it just goes on and I mean it just goes on and I mean it just goes on and on and her new book covers the history on and her new book covers the history on and her new book covers the history of Africa from the beginning to just of Africa from the beginning to just of Africa from the beginning to just recently top to bottom side to side and recently top to bottom side to side and recently top to bottom side to side and I'm going to monopolize as I said her to I'm going to monopolize as I said her to I'm going to monopolize as I said her to talk about this Kingdom of kush that so talk about this Kingdom of kush that so talk about this Kingdom of kush that so interests me but listen Miss badawi was interests me but listen Miss badawi was interests me but listen Miss badawi was born in Sudan this is her history from born in Sudan this is her history from born in Sudan this is her history from her ancient time period and the Very

her ancient time period and the Very her ancient time period and the Very roots of of the people that were first roots of of the people that were first roots of of the people that were first making history in the land of her birth making history in the land of her birth making history in the land of her birth so who better to talk to about the so who better to talk to about the so who better to talk to about the ancient ancient ancient kushites than the great and talented Zay abuwi let me start off by asking the abuwi let me start off by asking the most obvious silly question question in most obvious silly question question in most obvious silly question question in the whole world you have a successful the whole world you have a successful the whole world you have a successful career doing other things and all of a career doing other things and all of a career doing other things and all of a sudden you decide to write this book an sudden you decide to write this book an sudden you decide to write this book an African history of Africa what prompted African history of Africa what prompted African history of Africa what prompted you to sort of shift gears and say I you to sort of shift gears and say I you to sort of shift gears and say I really want to get this book really want to get this book really want to get this book out well Dan in a way the book found me out well Dan in a way the book found me out well Dan in a way the book found me um and that is because having enjoyed a um and that is because having enjoyed a um and that is because having enjoyed a long career in broadcasting and making long career in broadcasting and making long career in broadcasting and making documentary films I embarked on a documentary films I embarked on a documentary films I embarked on a project to make um 20 45 minute project to make um 20 45 minute project to make um 20 45 minute documentary films about the history of documentary films about the history of documentary films about the history of Africa AF and I traveled to more than 30 Africa AF and I traveled to more than 30 Africa AF and I traveled to more than 30 countries in Africa over a period of countries in Africa over a period of countries in Africa over a period of about seven years and I interviewed about seven years and I interviewed about seven years and I interviewed dozens and dozens and dozens of dozens and dozens and dozens of dozens and dozens and dozens of historians anthropologists historians anthropologists historians anthropologists archaeologists and so on and I made the archaeologists and so on and I made the archaeologists and so on and I made the films put them out they're now available films put them out they're now available films put them out they're now available on BBC YouTube free of charge and I was on BBC YouTube free of charge and I was on BBC YouTube free of charge and I was very troubled by the fact that so much very troubled by the fact that so much very troubled by the fact that so much of what these marvelous African Scholars of what these marvelous African Scholars of what these marvelous African Scholars had told me had metaphorically speaking had told me had metaphorically speaking had told me had metaphorically speaking hit The Cutting Room floor so I thought hit The Cutting Room floor so I thought hit The Cutting Room floor so I thought you know what I really want to do you know what I really want to do you know what I really want to do justice to what they told me I want to justice to what they told me I want to justice to what they told me I want to ventilate their scholarship and so I ventilate their scholarship and so I ventilate their scholarship and so I thought the only way I could do that was

thought the only way I could do that was thought the only way I could do that was by writing a book because I wanted to by writing a book because I wanted to by writing a book because I wanted to Accord them the respect of bringing Accord them the respect of bringing Accord them the respect of bringing their Vision their perspectives their their Vision their perspectives their their Vision their perspectives their scholarship their research to the scholarship their research to the scholarship their research to the telling of the history of their own telling of the history of their own telling of the history of their own continent and so that's why I written continent and so that's why I written continent and so that's why I written the book and it's a passion a mission the book and it's a passion a mission the book and it's a passion a mission for me and I see myself as a kind of for me and I see myself as a kind of for me and I see myself as a kind of conduit a facilitator for these African conduit a facilitator for these African conduit a facilitator for these African voices I thought let me use my um you voices I thought let me use my um you voices I thought let me use my um you know my International stage as it were know my International stage as it were know my International stage as it were to put them center stage and say at last to put them center stage and say at last to put them center stage and say at last let us hear Africans telling their own let us hear Africans telling their own let us hear Africans telling their own story rather than having it being story rather than having it being story rather than having it being related by Outsiders I thought it was related by Outsiders I thought it was related by Outsiders I thought it was fascinating that some of the people you fascinating that some of the people you fascinating that some of the people you were able to hear from specifically too were able to hear from specifically too were able to hear from specifically too and and you get the real sense of what and and you get the real sense of what and and you get the real sense of what you're missing in sort of the you're missing in sort of the you're missing in sort of the international debate on this to have international debate on this to have international debate on this to have those voices not a part of the those voices not a part of the those voices not a part of the discussion and a lot of it's connected discussion and a lot of it's connected discussion and a lot of it's connected to you know you you point out which of to you know you you point out which of to you know you you point out which of course DNA and all the historians and course DNA and all the historians and course DNA and all the historians and the anthropologists have pointed out the anthropologists have pointed out the anthropologists have pointed out forever that humankind All Began on that forever that humankind All Began on that forever that humankind All Began on that continent is there a sense amongst the continent is there a sense amongst the continent is there a sense amongst the people that you spoke to about this who people that you spoke to about this who people that you spoke to about this who are keeping alive you know what starts are keeping alive you know what starts are keeping alive you know what starts off when you go far enough back in off when you go far enough back in off when you go far enough back in history into oral conversations right history into oral conversations right history into oral conversations right and oral remembrances are they sort of and oral remembrances are they sort of and oral remembrances are they sort of cognizant are they able to sort of meld cognizant are they able to sort of meld cognizant are they able to sort of meld the modern-day understanding that all the modern-day understanding that all the modern-day understanding that all Humanity comes from that continent and Humanity comes from that continent and Humanity comes from that continent and somehow fuse it with their understanding somehow fuse it with their understanding somehow fuse it with their understanding of the early oral histories of of of the of the early oral histories of of of the of the early oral histories of of of the beginnings as they understand them

beginnings as they understand them beginnings as they understand them undoubtedly everybody in Africa knows undoubtedly everybody in Africa knows undoubtedly everybody in Africa knows that there is nobody on Earth today who that there is nobody on Earth today who that there is nobody on Earth today who cannot say that Africa is not their cannot say that Africa is not their cannot say that Africa is not their mother continent the science is settled mother continent the science is settled mother continent the science is settled it's accepted all over the world um I it's accepted all over the world um I it's accepted all over the world um I mean there are obviously some people who mean there are obviously some people who mean there are obviously some people who perhaps find it rather unpalatable that perhaps find it rather unpalatable that perhaps find it rather unpalatable that all humans originated from Africa but all humans originated from Africa but all humans originated from Africa but there we go um and Africans I think do there we go um and Africans I think do there we go um and Africans I think do um actually derive a great deal of Pride um actually derive a great deal of Pride um actually derive a great deal of Pride from the fact that the story of from the fact that the story of from the fact that the story of humankind begins in Africa if you're not humankind begins in Africa if you're not humankind begins in Africa if you're not living in Africa today or of African living in Africa today or of African living in Africa today or of African descent you're an African export whether descent you're an African export whether descent you're an African export whether you've got blonde hair blue eyes there's you've got blonde hair blue eyes there's you've got blonde hair blue eyes there's no escaping that how far it marries back no escaping that how far it marries back no escaping that how far it marries back with oral tradition that may be a bit of with oral tradition that may be a bit of with oral tradition that may be a bit of a stretch down because I mean just a a stretch down because I mean just a a stretch down because I mean just a quick you know um snapshot of how we quick you know um snapshot of how we quick you know um snapshot of how we evolved uh modern humans that's Homo evolved uh modern humans that's Homo evolved uh modern humans that's Homo sapiens sapiens we were fully formed sapiens sapiens we were fully formed sapiens sapiens we were fully formed about 100,000 years ago by about 990,000 about 100,000 years ago by about 990,000 about 100,000 years ago by about 990,000 years ago we had populated the whole years ago we had populated the whole years ago we had populated the whole continent of Africa sometime around 60 continent of Africa sometime around 60 continent of Africa sometime around 60 to 70,000 years ago those first Hardy to 70,000 years ago those first Hardy to 70,000 years ago those first Hardy Pioneers left the continent first went Pioneers left the continent first went Pioneers left the continent first went across to the Arabian Peninsula and Asia across to the Arabian Peninsula and Asia across to the Arabian Peninsula and Asia and Europe and there they encountered and Europe and there they encountered and Europe and there they encountered other um commins like um Denise Sans or other um commins like um Denise Sans or other um commins like um Denise Sans or the neander tals and they bred with them the neander tals and they bred with them the neander tals and they bred with them and until these other species were bred and until these other species were bred and until these other species were bred into into into Extinction so to say that Africans today

Extinction so to say that Africans today Extinction so to say that Africans today remember that um history about 60,000 remember that um history about 60,000 remember that um history about 60,000 years ago when they migrated from the years ago when they migrated from the years ago when they migrated from the continent would be a bit of a stretch continent would be a bit of a stretch continent would be a bit of a stretch but what is certainly true is that if but what is certainly true is that if but what is certainly true is that if you are trying to piece together early you are trying to piece together early you are trying to piece together early African history and by that I really African history and by that I really African history and by that I really mean precolonial history before the mean precolonial history before the mean precolonial history before the Europeans arrived and started writing um Europeans arrived and started writing um Europeans arrived and started writing um about Africa's history oral tradition is about Africa's history oral tradition is about Africa's history oral tradition is very very important and this is what very very important and this is what very very important and this is what African historians do and which Western African historians do and which Western African historians do and which Western historians over often Overlook they look historians over often Overlook they look historians over often Overlook they look at their own written records They at their own written records They at their own written records They perhaps don't put enough attention on perhaps don't put enough attention on perhaps don't put enough attention on written records which have been given to written records which have been given to written records which have been given to us by the Arabs for instance the Arabs us by the Arabs for instance the Arabs us by the Arabs for instance the Arabs were in Africa much much earlier than were in Africa much much earlier than were in Africa much much earlier than the Europeans from about the 7th century the Europeans from about the 7th century the Europeans from about the 7th century and they you know they had their and they you know they had their and they you know they had their Chronicles their Travelers and so on Chronicles their Travelers and so on Chronicles their Travelers and so on you've got other non-western languages you've got other non-western languages you've got other non-western languages Persian um garati you know so African Persian um garati you know so African Persian um garati you know so African Scholars tend to look at these other Scholars tend to look at these other Scholars tend to look at these other sources but they also rely on oral sources but they also rely on oral sources but they also rely on oral tradition a great deal to piece together tradition a great deal to piece together tradition a great deal to piece together their early history and that's often their early history and that's often their early history and that's often supported by archaeological evidence if supported by archaeological evidence if supported by archaeological evidence if you say that oh Africans didn't always you say that oh Africans didn't always you say that oh Africans didn't always write and record their history therefore write and record their history therefore write and record their history therefore they had no history that in my opinion they had no history that in my opinion they had no history that in my opinion is very shortsighted and that has often is very shortsighted and that has often is very shortsighted and that has often been the case and that is why I think been the case and that is why I think been the case and that is why I think Africa's history before the Europeans Africa's history before the Europeans Africa's history before the Europeans arrived has been arrived has been arrived has been denigrated because they say oh you know

denigrated because they say oh you know denigrated because they say oh you know they didn't write they don't have any they didn't write they don't have any they didn't write they don't have any history of course documentary evidence history of course documentary evidence history of course documentary evidence is important but it doesn't mean to say is important but it doesn't mean to say is important but it doesn't mean to say that just because Africans didn't always that just because Africans didn't always that just because Africans didn't always write that they didn't record their write that they didn't record their write that they didn't record their history you just have to get at it in history you just have to get at it in history you just have to get at it in different ways different ways different ways and um that's what I liked about the and um that's what I liked about the and um that's what I liked about the African historians that I encountered African historians that I encountered African historians that I encountered they do you know that they they are they do you know that they they are they do you know that they they are aware of how accounts of great deeds and aware of how accounts of great deeds and aware of how accounts of great deeds and actions and words of great leaders actions and words of great leaders actions and words of great leaders throughout history have been handed down throughout history have been handed down throughout history have been handed down through the through the through the generations um because you know generations um because you know generations um because you know knowledge in Africa is held communally knowledge in Africa is held communally knowledge in Africa is held communally knowledge in the west is held by an knowledge in the west is held by an knowledge in the west is held by an individual but in Africa you know individual but in Africa you know individual but in Africa you know knowledge is communal it's you know your knowledge is communal it's you know your knowledge is communal it's you know your great grandmother maybe the custodian of great grandmother maybe the custodian of great grandmother maybe the custodian of certain tables about your people's um certain tables about your people's um certain tables about your people's um history uh and that's mirrored in history uh and that's mirrored in history uh and that's mirrored in countless communities you know across countless communities you know across countless communities you know across regions and so that's a very important regions and so that's a very important regions and so that's a very important point to make and what the African point to make and what the African point to make and what the African historians are saying is we're not historians are saying is we're not historians are saying is we're not supplanting what the Western historians supplanting what the Western historians supplanting what the Western historians have done we're merely supplementing it have done we're merely supplementing it have done we're merely supplementing it and saying if you only look at African and saying if you only look at African and saying if you only look at African history through a western prism you will history through a western prism you will history through a western prism you will miss something because if you just look miss something because if you just look miss something because if you just look at you know Africa through Western value at you know Africa through Western value at you know Africa through Western value system you won't understand the African system you won't understand the African system you won't understand the African mindset you'll miss something so in a mindset you'll miss something so in a mindset you'll miss something so in a sense this sense this sense this diversification of looking at Africa's diversification of looking at Africa's diversification of looking at Africa's history in my opinion brings you a

history in my opinion brings you a history in my opinion brings you a better more rounded um more authentic um better more rounded um more authentic um better more rounded um more authentic um understanding of African history well understanding of African history well understanding of African history well and you bring up the writing part so and you bring up the writing part so and you bring up the writing part so let's talk about that for a minute let's talk about that for a minute let's talk about that for a minute because there is a writing part and this because there is a writing part and this because there is a writing part and this is the ulterior motive where I've had is the ulterior motive where I've had is the ulterior motive where I've had you on this program I've wanted to talk you on this program I've wanted to talk you on this program I've wanted to talk about the kushites forever I'm I'm about the kushites forever I'm I'm about the kushites forever I'm I'm intensely interested in them but because intensely interested in them but because intensely interested in them but because of the writing uh I have the same of the writing uh I have the same of the writing uh I have the same problem with ancient Egypt if you're problem with ancient Egypt if you're problem with ancient Egypt if you're trying to dramatize a story you really trying to dramatize a story you really trying to dramatize a story you really need sort of narratives from individuals need sort of narratives from individuals need sort of narratives from individuals on the ground and the farther back in on the ground and the farther back in on the ground and the farther back in history you go the less of that stuff history you go the less of that stuff history you go the less of that stuff you have but the kushites had a written you have but the kushites had a written you have but the kushites had a written language one of the most exciting things language one of the most exciting things language one of the most exciting things in your book I thought was your pointing in your book I thought was your pointing in your book I thought was your pointing out that the archaeology in the region out that the archaeology in the region out that the archaeology in the region has only scratched the surface of what's has only scratched the surface of what's has only scratched the surface of what's out there compared to say what we know out there compared to say what we know out there compared to say what we know about ancient Egypt but there's a lot of about ancient Egypt but there's a lot of about ancient Egypt but there's a lot of reasons for that including War torn reasons for that including War torn reasons for that including War torn regions uh lack of attention regions uh lack of attention regions uh lack of attention governmental problems uh funding governmental problems uh funding governmental problems uh funding problems and yet some of that's been problems and yet some of that's been problems and yet some of that's been overcome and they're starting to find overcome and they're starting to find overcome and they're starting to find out more about uh things like the out more about uh things like the out more about uh things like the kushites and the kushites had a written kushites and the kushites had a written kushites and the kushites had a written language and I was surprised to find out language and I was surprised to find out language and I was surprised to find out that that still hasn't been deciphered that that still hasn't been deciphered that that still hasn't been deciphered but what that means is it's out there to but what that means is it's out there to but what that means is it's out there to be deciphered what do you expect you be deciphered what do you expect you be deciphered what do you expect you know I was just thinking if somebody had know I was just thinking if somebody had know I was just thinking if somebody had mentioned artificial intelligence as a mentioned artificial intelligence as a mentioned artificial intelligence as a wonderful translation tool I mean do you wonderful translation tool I mean do you wonderful translation tool I mean do you think we're going to get to to sort of think we're going to get to to sort of think we're going to get to to sort of get the Rosetta Stone for that at some get the Rosetta Stone for that at some get the Rosetta Stone for that at some point you don't think it's shaking your point you don't think it's shaking your point you don't think it's shaking your head you don't think so well I mean the head you don't think so well I mean the head you don't think so well I mean the Rosetta Stone of course for Ancient Rosetta Stone of course for Ancient Rosetta Stone of course for Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics was very Egyptian Hieroglyphics was very Egyptian Hieroglyphics was very significant but it wasn't the only um significant but it wasn't the only um significant but it wasn't the only um code cracker as it were there were other code cracker as it were there were other code cracker as it were there were other sources but we haven't found something

sources but we haven't found something sources but we haven't found something akin to the Rosetta Stone or other um akin to the Rosetta Stone or other um akin to the Rosetta Stone or other um you know information which has allowed you know information which has allowed you know information which has allowed us to decipher Egyptian us to decipher Egyptian us to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics sudin the cushite um began hieroglyphics sudin the cushite um began hieroglyphics sudin the cushite um began writing in their own language from the writing in their own language from the writing in their own language from the 2nd Century up until then they used the 2nd Century up until then they used the 2nd Century up until then they used the ancient Egyptian ancient Egyptian ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and we can sound them partly hieroglyphs and we can sound them partly hieroglyphs and we can sound them partly because of the great work of um a because of the great work of um a because of the great work of um a British academic called Francis luellin British academic called Francis luellin British academic called Francis luellin Griffiths who managed to kind of tell us Griffiths who managed to kind of tell us Griffiths who managed to kind of tell us what the sounds of the meroitic script what the sounds of the meroitic script what the sounds of the meroitic script as it's known that the kushites used as it's known that the kushites used as it's known that the kushites used from the 2 Century onwards but we don't from the 2 Century onwards but we don't from the 2 Century onwards but we don't know what the words mean unfortunately know what the words mean unfortunately know what the words mean unfortunately and it's a work in progress and it's a work in progress and it's a work in progress we hope that all the um archaeologists we hope that all the um archaeologists we hope that all the um archaeologists who are working in Northern Sudan of who are working in Northern Sudan of who are working in Northern Sudan of course sadly that's had to stop because course sadly that's had to stop because course sadly that's had to stop because of the conflict will somehow find um you of the conflict will somehow find um you of the conflict will somehow find um you know a stone that's got ancient Greek know a stone that's got ancient Greek know a stone that's got ancient Greek ancient Egyptian and the cushite ancient Egyptian and the cushite ancient Egyptian and the cushite language alongside that will help us language alongside that will help us language alongside that will help us decipher the um hieroglyphics that the decipher the um hieroglyphics that the decipher the um hieroglyphics that the kushites used but until that happens kushites used but until that happens kushites used but until that happens it's all a bit of a mystery sadly um but it's all a bit of a mystery sadly um but it's all a bit of a mystery sadly um but we know a great deal about the cushites we know a great deal about the cushites we know a great deal about the cushites because they um did write in as I said because they um did write in as I said because they um did write in as I said ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs but we know ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs but we know ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs but we know the most about the kushites from about the most about the kushites from about the most about the kushites from about the seventh and e8th centuries BCE the seventh and e8th centuries BCE the seventh and e8th centuries BCE that's before Common Era or Some people that's before Common Era or Some people that's before Common Era or Some people prefer to say BC before Christ and that prefer to say BC before Christ and that prefer to say BC before Christ and that is because that is when the kings of

is because that is when the kings of is because that is when the kings of kush reached the Zenith of their power kush reached the Zenith of their power kush reached the Zenith of their power and conquered Egypt and governed it for and conquered Egypt and governed it for and conquered Egypt and governed it for the best part of a century and so the the best part of a century and so the the best part of a century and so the ancient Egyptians were busy writing ancient Egyptians were busy writing ancient Egyptians were busy writing about you know these these Kings these about you know these these Kings these about you know these these Kings these pharaohs who formed their 25th Dynasty pharaohs who formed their 25th Dynasty pharaohs who formed their 25th Dynasty who'd come from further south and that's who'd come from further south and that's who'd come from further south and that's why we know about the kings of kush from why we know about the kings of kush from why we know about the kings of kush from that era you know with names like um that era you know with names like um that era you know with names like um Panki tah hardco shitu Shabaka and there Panki tah hardco shitu Shabaka and there Panki tah hardco shitu Shabaka and there are these marvelous black granite are these marvelous black granite are these marvelous black granite statues of these Kings and so it's a statues of these Kings and so it's a statues of these Kings and so it's a very evocative period of um ancient very evocative period of um ancient very evocative period of um ancient African history and they were not only a African history and they were not only a African history and they were not only a great afan civilization they were great afan civilization they were great afan civilization they were actually a regional superpower because actually a regional superpower because actually a regional superpower because they were Protectors of King Hezekiah of they were Protectors of King Hezekiah of they were Protectors of King Hezekiah of Judah who appealed to them to protect Judah who appealed to them to protect Judah who appealed to them to protect him against the marauding Assyrians who him against the marauding Assyrians who him against the marauding Assyrians who were really ferocious um warlike uh were really ferocious um warlike uh were really ferocious um warlike uh people in that period of the ancient people in that period of the ancient people in that period of the ancient world the princes of biblos and world the princes of biblos and world the princes of biblos and Phoenicia in modern day Lebanon also Phoenicia in modern day Lebanon also Phoenicia in modern day Lebanon also looked to the kings of kush to protect looked to the kings of kush to protect looked to the kings of kush to protect them they were really skilled um archers them they were really skilled um archers them they were really skilled um archers and and very skilled equestrians you and and very skilled equestrians you and and very skilled equestrians you know they' ride their horses and they'd know they' ride their horses and they'd know they' ride their horses and they'd have their bow and arrow with the tips have their bow and arrow with the tips have their bow and arrow with the tips that were you know dipped in poison and that were you know dipped in poison and that were you know dipped in poison and they had a very you know amazing way of they had a very you know amazing way of they had a very you know amazing way of actually firing their Arrow right into actually firing their Arrow right into actually firing their Arrow right into the eye of their enemies so that was the eye of their enemies so that was the eye of their enemies so that was obviously a great way of um of seeing obviously a great way of um of seeing obviously a great way of um of seeing your enemies off and you know the your enemies off and you know the your enemies off and you know the cushites built a thousand pyramids about

cushites built a thousand pyramids about cushites built a thousand pyramids about 250 of them today preserve some part of 250 of them today preserve some part of 250 of them today preserve some part of their super structure and just by way of their super structure and just by way of their super structure and just by way of reference there areund pyramids in Egypt reference there areund pyramids in Egypt reference there areund pyramids in Egypt so a thousand in Sudan much smaller than so a thousand in Sudan much smaller than so a thousand in Sudan much smaller than the ones in Egypt but nevertheless the ones in Egypt but nevertheless the ones in Egypt but nevertheless extremely impressive you know they built extremely impressive you know they built extremely impressive you know they built temples they have Exquisite pottery and temples they have Exquisite pottery and temples they have Exquisite pottery and Ceramics in fact some people credit the Ceramics in fact some people credit the Ceramics in fact some people credit the kushites of being the first people to kushites of being the first people to kushites of being the first people to enamel Pottery Fine Jewelry dyed enamel Pottery Fine Jewelry dyed enamel Pottery Fine Jewelry dyed material you know they really material you know they really material you know they really were an extraordinary civilization which were an extraordinary civilization which were an extraordinary civilization which in its earliest iteration about 2,500 in its earliest iteration about 2,500 in its earliest iteration about 2,500 BCE far predates ancient Greece and Rome BCE far predates ancient Greece and Rome BCE far predates ancient Greece and Rome you know Rome was just a Backwater in you know Rome was just a Backwater in you know Rome was just a Backwater in southern Europe at the time so um it is southern Europe at the time so um it is southern Europe at the time so um it is extraordinary for for me that that's the extraordinary for for me that that's the extraordinary for for me that that's the part of the world from which my part of the world from which my part of the world from which my ancestors hail from northern Sudan and ancestors hail from northern Sudan and ancestors hail from northern Sudan and everybody knows about ancient Egypt yet everybody knows about ancient Egypt yet everybody knows about ancient Egypt yet nobody knows about the ancient Northern nobody knows about the ancient Northern nobody knows about the ancient Northern Sudanese you know the kings and queens Sudanese you know the kings and queens Sudanese you know the kings and queens of kush but I think as the great Swiss of kush but I think as the great Swiss of kush but I think as the great Swiss archaeologist Charles Bonet said there archaeologist Charles Bonet said there archaeologist Charles Bonet said there will come a time when sudy will be as will come a time when sudy will be as will come a time when sudy will be as famous as egyptology because it's a famous as egyptology because it's a famous as egyptology because it's a story that's just been Unearthed um but story that's just been Unearthed um but story that's just been Unearthed um but the harsh climate the instability in the the harsh climate the instability in the the harsh climate the instability in the country the lack of resources means that country the lack of resources means that country the lack of resources means that you know we haven't really excavated um you know we haven't really excavated um you know we haven't really excavated um the exciting um history that just lies

the exciting um history that just lies the exciting um history that just lies under the sand dunes and elsewhere in under the sand dunes and elsewhere in under the sand dunes and elsewhere in Northern Sudan but it's it's it's an Northern Sudan but it's it's it's an Northern Sudan but it's it's it's an amazing history and it's one which amazing history and it's one which amazing history and it's one which really touched me of all the countries I really touched me of all the countries I really touched me of all the countries I visited of course I would say that visited of course I would say that visited of course I would say that because it's the land of my ancestors because it's the land of my ancestors because it's the land of my ancestors but I really think that it's a part of but I really think that it's a part of but I really think that it's a part of world history which should be better world history which should be better world history which should be better known and you know forgive me for going known and you know forgive me for going known and you know forgive me for going on about this Dan but what I also like on about this Dan but what I also like on about this Dan but what I also like about the story of the kingdom of cous about the story of the kingdom of cous about the story of the kingdom of cous is it shows you how kingdoms rise and is it shows you how kingdoms rise and is it shows you how kingdoms rise and fall that today you know Sudan may be fall that today you know Sudan may be fall that today you know Sudan may be one of the Le less developed parts of one of the Le less developed parts of one of the Le less developed parts of the world but in Times Gone by why it the world but in Times Gone by why it the world but in Times Gone by why it had this you know it was a it was a had this you know it was a it was a had this you know it was a it was a superpower and also the story of ancient superpower and also the story of ancient superpower and also the story of ancient C tells you how history is not something C tells you how history is not something C tells you how history is not something that can just be consigned to the past that can just be consigned to the past that can just be consigned to the past of course history explains our past but of course history explains our past but of course history explains our past but it also informs our present and helps it also informs our present and helps it also informs our present and helps shape our future and I just give you one shape our future and I just give you one shape our future and I just give you one very small illustration the people of very small illustration the people of very small illustration the people of ancient Northern Sudan of kush ancient Northern Sudan of kush ancient Northern Sudan of kush considered it an Abomination to eat fish considered it an Abomination to eat fish considered it an Abomination to eat fish they had all this fish in the River Nile they had all this fish in the River Nile they had all this fish in the River Nile you know an amazing source of protein you know an amazing source of protein you know an amazing source of protein yet they just wouldn't eat it and to yet they just wouldn't eat it and to yet they just wouldn't eat it and to this day the consumption of fish in this day the consumption of fish in this day the consumption of fish in Northern Sudan is far lower than many Northern Sudan is far lower than many Northern Sudan is far lower than many other places in the world it is on other places in the world it is on other places in the world it is on average one kilogram per person per year average one kilogram per person per year average one kilogram per person per year compare it to Egypt another land of the compare it to Egypt another land of the compare it to Egypt another land of the Nile where the average consumption is 25 Nile where the average consumption is 25 Nile where the average consumption is 25 kilograms per person per year and it

kilograms per person per year and it kilograms per person per year and it just shows you how you know history just just shows you how you know history just just shows you how you know history just continues and I saw that in so many ways continues and I saw that in so many ways continues and I saw that in so many ways when I was exploring the culture of the when I was exploring the culture of the when I was exploring the culture of the um of the kushites and I also love the um of the kushites and I also love the um of the kushites and I also love the fact that the queens of cush also had fact that the queens of cush also had fact that the queens of cush also had such a powerful role to place to play in such a powerful role to place to play in such a powerful role to place to play in society they could govern alongside society they could govern alongside society they could govern alongside their husbands and their sons as co- their husbands and their sons as co- their husbands and their sons as co- Regents and there was some like ammani Regents and there was some like ammani Regents and there was some like ammani Rance who would actually lead their men Rance who would actually lead their men Rance who would actually lead their men into battle she was known as the oneeyed into battle she was known as the oneeyed into battle she was known as the oneeyed queen because she lost an eye fting queen because she lost an eye fting queen because she lost an eye fting fighting the Romans in 30 CE and in fact fighting the Romans in 30 CE and in fact fighting the Romans in 30 CE and in fact they were forced to in the end sign a they were forced to in the end sign a they were forced to in the end sign a peace treaty with her in 22 BCE so it's peace treaty with her in 22 BCE so it's peace treaty with her in 22 BCE so it's just you know I can understand why just you know I can understand why just you know I can understand why you're fascinated by it because it you're fascinated by it because it you're fascinated by it because it really is you know the stuff of really is you know the stuff of really is you know the stuff of Hollywood where fact is Stranger Than Hollywood where fact is Stranger Than Hollywood where fact is Stranger Than Fiction and I I do wish that um somebody Fiction and I I do wish that um somebody Fiction and I I do wish that um somebody would you know try and popularize this would you know try and popularize this would you know try and popularize this amazing chapter in African history let amazing chapter in African history let amazing chapter in African history let me suggest you brought up Hollywood let me suggest you brought up Hollywood let me suggest you brought up Hollywood let me suggest that the interest is there me suggest that the interest is there me suggest that the interest is there but it's misplaced if you go on social but it's misplaced if you go on social but it's misplaced if you go on social media and you see the debates that media and you see the debates that media and you see the debates that people have over the ethnicity of people have over the ethnicity of people have over the ethnicity of Cleopatra right the the Macedonian Cleopatra right the the Macedonian Cleopatra right the the Macedonian descendant right so a woman of Greek descendant right so a woman of Greek descendant right so a woman of Greek descent and we'll have these arguments descent and we'll have these arguments descent and we'll have these arguments over what her skin color should be and over what her skin color should be and over what her skin color should be and it seems almost a grasping attempt to it seems almost a grasping attempt to it seems almost a grasping attempt to seize a black Egyptian Heritage when I seize a black Egyptian Heritage when I seize a black Egyptian Heritage when I always try to tell people it's there

always try to tell people it's there always try to tell people it's there you're just looking in the wrong you're just looking in the wrong you're just looking in the wrong Direction it's the 25th Dynasty it's not Direction it's the 25th Dynasty it's not Direction it's the 25th Dynasty it's not Cleopatra it's it's it's these wonderful Cleopatra it's it's it's these wonderful Cleopatra it's it's it's these wonderful kings that restored the Egyptian kings that restored the Egyptian kings that restored the Egyptian religion that that that that threw out religion that that that that threw out religion that that that that threw out the Libyan Dynasty I mean there's a the Libyan Dynasty I mean there's a the Libyan Dynasty I mean there's a wonderful black pharaoh history you wonderful black pharaoh history you wonderful black pharaoh history you don't have to make it up or try to find don't have to make it up or try to find don't have to make it up or try to find it you know hidden it's right there in it you know hidden it's right there in it you know hidden it's right there in front of you we're just not looking in front of you we're just not looking in front of you we're just not looking in the right direction let me back up a the right direction let me back up a the right direction let me back up a minute because we didn't really set it minute because we didn't really set it minute because we didn't really set it up you have ancient Egypt which emerges up you have ancient Egypt which emerges up you have ancient Egypt which emerges from the mids of History like ancient from the mids of History like ancient from the mids of History like ancient Mesopotamia like China did like India Mesopotamia like China did like India Mesopotamia like China did like India did where the early history is just sort did where the early history is just sort did where the early history is just sort of hidden and then there they are and of hidden and then there they are and of hidden and then there they are and the kushites are there from the very the kushites are there from the very the kushites are there from the very beginning and we used to call and your beginning and we used to call and your beginning and we used to call and your book talked me out of this is a better book talked me out of this is a better book talked me out of this is a better way to put it we used to talk about an way to put it we used to talk about an way to put it we used to talk about an area between kush or Kush as you call it area between kush or Kush as you call it area between kush or Kush as you call it and Egypt and we used to call that Nubia and Egypt and we used to call that Nubia and Egypt and we used to call that Nubia and you point out that that's the wrong and you point out that that's the wrong and you point out that that's the wrong word for it you label you know where the word for it you label you know where the word for it you label you know where the divisions are based on the the cataracts divisions are based on the the cataracts divisions are based on the the cataracts the rocky areas of the Nile but but the the rocky areas of the Nile but but the the rocky areas of the Nile but but the Nubian Kush areas there from the very Nubian Kush areas there from the very Nubian Kush areas there from the very beginning the you know prehistory the beginning the you know prehistory the beginning the you know prehistory the Egyptians are already dealing with you Egyptians are already dealing with you Egyptians are already dealing with you what would you say the relationship what would you say the relationship what would you say the relationship between the Egypt that everyone knows between the Egypt that everyone knows between the Egypt that everyone knows and the the the kushite people's you and the the the kushite people's you and the the the kushite people's you know what what did Herodotus call them know what what did Herodotus call them know what what did Herodotus call them Ethiopians uh which is the wrong term Ethiopians uh which is the wrong term Ethiopians uh which is the wrong term also what would you say their also what would you say their also what would you say their relationship is from the very beginning relationship is from the very beginning relationship is from the very beginning so I mean you know the kushites emerged so I mean you know the kushites emerged so I mean you know the kushites emerged from a part of the world which was never from a part of the world which was never from a part of the world which was never part of Egypt and the word Nubia is not part of Egypt and the word Nubia is not part of Egypt and the word Nubia is not something that came into use until much

something that came into use until much something that came into use until much much later around the um first 2 Century much later around the um first 2 Century much later around the um first 2 Century um Common Era so there is a tendency to um Common Era so there is a tendency to um Common Era so there is a tendency to try to talk about the kushites as try to talk about the kushites as try to talk about the kushites as Nubians of course there were Nubians who Nubians of course there were Nubians who Nubians of course there were Nubians who you could refer to them as Nubians but you could refer to them as Nubians but you could refer to them as Nubians but much later in their history but a lot of much later in their history but a lot of much later in their history but a lot of people refer to them as Nubians because people refer to them as Nubians because people refer to them as Nubians because there are Nubians today who live in there are Nubians today who live in there are Nubians today who live in northern Sudan but also who live in northern Sudan but also who live in northern Sudan but also who live in southern Egypt and by calling them southern Egypt and by calling them southern Egypt and by calling them Nubians it kind of in a way allows Nubians it kind of in a way allows Nubians it kind of in a way allows people perhaps in Egypt to say Ah that's people perhaps in Egypt to say Ah that's people perhaps in Egypt to say Ah that's when we were governed by our 25th when we were governed by our 25th when we were governed by our 25th Dynasty who were Nubians to try to imply Dynasty who were Nubians to try to imply Dynasty who were Nubians to try to imply perhaps that these were people who perhaps that these were people who perhaps that these were people who territorially came from what is known as territorially came from what is known as territorially came from what is known as Southern Egypt so it kind of puts Southern Egypt so it kind of puts Southern Egypt so it kind of puts Northern Sudan into the Shadow do you Northern Sudan into the Shadow do you Northern Sudan into the Shadow do you see what I mean so that's one reason why see what I mean so that's one reason why see what I mean so that's one reason why I don't like them being referred to I don't like them being referred to I don't like them being referred to Nubians because these are people who Nubians because these are people who Nubians because these are people who territorially only ever came from a part territorially only ever came from a part territorially only ever came from a part of the world that is part of Sudan and of the world that is part of Sudan and of the world that is part of Sudan and was never part of Egypt proper they did was never part of Egypt proper they did was never part of Egypt proper they did have similarities with the people of have similarities with the people of have similarities with the people of Southern Egypt as they do to this day I Southern Egypt as they do to this day I Southern Egypt as they do to this day I we have in my family very strong we have in my family very strong we have in my family very strong connections with Southern Egypt connections with Southern Egypt connections with Southern Egypt ethnically you can't really tell the ethnically you can't really tell the ethnically you can't really tell the difference between the northern Sudanese difference between the northern Sudanese difference between the northern Sudanese and the southern Egyptians you know very and the southern Egyptians you know very and the southern Egyptians you know very similar kind of um accent when it comes similar kind of um accent when it comes similar kind of um accent when it comes to speaking Arabic and so on um and um to speaking Arabic and so on um and um to speaking Arabic and so on um and um historically speaking the relationship historically speaking the relationship historically speaking the relationship between the cushites and the ancient between the cushites and the ancient between the cushites and the ancient Egyptians was one that you know ebbed Egyptians was one that you know ebbed Egyptians was one that you know ebbed and FL

and FL and FL sometimes the ancient Egyptians would sometimes the ancient Egyptians would sometimes the ancient Egyptians would clobber the cushites at other times they clobber the cushites at other times they clobber the cushites at other times they had you know a fairly good relationship had you know a fairly good relationship had you know a fairly good relationship um the two cultures um learned from one um the two cultures um learned from one um the two cultures um learned from one another um you know the the ancient another um you know the the ancient another um you know the the ancient Sudanese and the ancient Egyptians Sudanese and the ancient Egyptians Sudanese and the ancient Egyptians worship the same deities um Amon raah worship the same deities um Amon raah worship the same deities um Amon raah was the principal God for both of them was the principal God for both of them was the principal God for both of them um the ancient sudanes the kushites um the ancient sudanes the kushites um the ancient sudanes the kushites added another one a pedac the lion God added another one a pedac the lion God added another one a pedac the lion God but interestingly enough um our moon Ra but interestingly enough um our moon Ra but interestingly enough um our moon Ra was believed to reside in jabel Bal was believed to reside in jabel Bal was believed to reside in jabel Bal which is this mountain which is in which is this mountain which is in which is this mountain which is in Northern Sudan territorially and always Northern Sudan territorially and always Northern Sudan territorially and always was and both the ancient sudanes and was and both the ancient sudanes and was and both the ancient sudanes and ancient Egyptians believed who resided ancient Egyptians believed who resided ancient Egyptians believed who resided there and when you think about the there and when you think about the there and when you think about the religious heart of ancient Egypt carak religious heart of ancient Egypt carak religious heart of ancient Egypt carak you know the temple at carak the Valley you know the temple at carak the Valley you know the temple at carak the Valley of the Kings in LSA where the um the of the Kings in LSA where the um the of the Kings in LSA where the um the Pharaohs were buried you know from the Pharaohs were buried you know from the Pharaohs were buried you know from the New Kingdom onwards New Kingdom onwards New Kingdom onwards this is very far Southern Egypt a this is very far Southern Egypt a this is very far Southern Egypt a thousand miles away from the thousand miles away from the thousand miles away from the Mediterranean coast of Egypt this is Mediterranean coast of Egypt this is Mediterranean coast of Egypt this is much more African Egypt it is not Piro much more African Egypt it is not Piro much more African Egypt it is not Piro it is not Alexandria you know on the it is not Alexandria you know on the it is not Alexandria you know on the Mediterranean Coast which makes you Mediterranean Coast which makes you Mediterranean Coast which makes you realize that actually the heart the realize that actually the heart the realize that actually the heart the Beating Heart the religious Center of Beating Heart the religious Center of Beating Heart the religious Center of ancient Egypt was fairly far south in ancient Egypt was fairly far south in ancient Egypt was fairly far south in Upper Egypt going towards the border Upper Egypt going towards the border Upper Egypt going towards the border with Northern Sudan Abu simul was

with Northern Sudan Abu simul was with Northern Sudan Abu simul was practically you know where rameses the practically you know where rameses the practically you know where rameses the great had his statue of that of himself great had his statue of that of himself great had his statue of that of himself and his wife was practically on the and his wife was practically on the and his wife was practically on the border with Southern sud with Northern border with Southern sud with Northern border with Southern sud with Northern Sudan so when it comes to the ethnicity Sudan so when it comes to the ethnicity Sudan so when it comes to the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians I think it's of the ancient Egyptians I think it's of the ancient Egyptians I think it's actually wrong to say ancient Egypt actually wrong to say ancient Egypt actually wrong to say ancient Egypt isn't part of Africa ancient Egypt is an isn't part of Africa ancient Egypt is an isn't part of Africa ancient Egypt is an African civilization just as the African civilization just as the African civilization just as the kushites are an African kushites are an African kushites are an African civilization depending on which area you civilization depending on which area you civilization depending on which area you at depending on which Pharaoh you look at depending on which Pharaoh you look at depending on which Pharaoh you look at in ancient Egypt their ethnicity as at in ancient Egypt their ethnicity as at in ancient Egypt their ethnicity as it were may vary the first king of it were may vary the first king of it were may vary the first king of ancient Egypt of the Archaic Period the ancient Egypt of the Archaic Period the ancient Egypt of the Archaic Period the old Dynasty um old Dynasty um old Dynasty um Nama you know would look what you might Nama you know would look what you might Nama you know would look what you might broadly say is more Southern Egyptian broadly say is more Southern Egyptian broadly say is more Southern Egyptian because that's where he came from later because that's where he came from later because that's where he came from later on you might have um pharaohs who on you might have um pharaohs who on you might have um pharaohs who perhaps hailed from more of the perhaps hailed from more of the perhaps hailed from more of the Mediterranean coast and right from the Mediterranean coast and right from the Mediterranean coast and right from the start you know Egypt had a Mediterranean start you know Egypt had a Mediterranean start you know Egypt had a Mediterranean Coast where people would mix with with Coast where people would mix with with Coast where people would mix with with um with southern Europe with Western um with southern Europe with Western um with southern Europe with Western Asia and so there was a mixture of Asia and so there was a mixture of Asia and so there was a mixture of people so the ethnicities of the people so the ethnicities of the people so the ethnicities of the Pharaohs would vary over the centuries Pharaohs would vary over the centuries Pharaohs would vary over the centuries so I wouldn't say that you know um so I wouldn't say that you know um so I wouldn't say that you know um people need to look to Sudan only people need to look to Sudan only people need to look to Sudan only Northern Sudan to get an idea of what an Northern Sudan to get an idea of what an Northern Sudan to get an idea of what an African Dynasty look like I think we African Dynasty look like I think we African Dynasty look like I think we need to redefine what we mean by African need to redefine what we mean by African need to redefine what we mean by African what does an African look like there what does an African look like there what does an African look like there isn't a standard look of an African so

isn't a standard look of an African so isn't a standard look of an African so we need to redefine that there isn't a we need to redefine that there isn't a we need to redefine that there isn't a kind of you know standard identic take kind of you know standard identic take kind of you know standard identic take it off the shelf and this is what an it off the shelf and this is what an it off the shelf and this is what an African looks like like everybody every African looks like like everybody every African looks like like everybody every other continent in the world there's a other continent in the world there's a other continent in the world there's a huge Variety in um appearances where it huge Variety in um appearances where it huge Variety in um appearances where it gets difficult with Cleopatra is that gets difficult with Cleopatra is that gets difficult with Cleopatra is that the toies who were the Pharaohs who the toies who were the Pharaohs who the toies who were the Pharaohs who succeeded Alexander the Great who was succeeded Alexander the Great who was succeeded Alexander the Great who was from m Macedonia and the toies were from m Macedonia and the toies were from m Macedonia and the toies were Macedonian and the last of the toies was Macedonian and the last of the toies was Macedonian and the last of the toies was Cleopatra who died in 30 BC when she Cleopatra who died in 30 BC when she Cleopatra who died in 30 BC when she killed herself and the Romans conquered killed herself and the Romans conquered killed herself and the Romans conquered Egypt um she was of Macedonian ethnicity Egypt um she was of Macedonian ethnicity Egypt um she was of Macedonian ethnicity they would have spoken a ancient Greek they would have spoken a ancient Greek they would have spoken a ancient Greek amongst themselves and that's where it amongst themselves and that's where it amongst themselves and that's where it gets a little bit difficult and that's gets a little bit difficult and that's gets a little bit difficult and that's where people might start getting annoyed where people might start getting annoyed where people might start getting annoyed when you have um a woman of color like when you have um a woman of color like when you have um a woman of color like Adele James depicted as Cleopatra and Adele James depicted as Cleopatra and Adele James depicted as Cleopatra and some Egyptians and others get a bit hot some Egyptians and others get a bit hot some Egyptians and others get a bit hot under the collar and say no Cleopatra under the collar and say no Cleopatra under the collar and say no Cleopatra was Macedonian she was not white but was Macedonian she was not white but was Macedonian she was not white but that does not mean that other pharaohs that does not mean that other pharaohs that does not mean that other pharaohs and other queens in ancient Egypt were and other queens in ancient Egypt were and other queens in ancient Egypt were similarly white hatch up suot is similarly white hatch up suot is similarly white hatch up suot is depicted you know with a terracotta depicted you know with a terracotta depicted you know with a terracotta color um in all the reliefs we have of color um in all the reliefs we have of color um in all the reliefs we have of her and statues and Buss and so on it's her and statues and Buss and so on it's her and statues and Buss and so on it's just the Cleopatra um complicates just the Cleopatra um complicates just the Cleopatra um complicates matters um and also the afro Cent matters um and also the afro Cent matters um and also the afro Cent of the Harlem Renaissance in the of the Harlem Renaissance in the of the Harlem Renaissance in the 1920s African Americans you know um

1920s African Americans you know um 1920s African Americans you know um started saying well look we you know started saying well look we you know started saying well look we you know want to look to our African Roots um in want to look to our African Roots um in want to look to our African Roots um in order to you know bolster our identity order to you know bolster our identity order to you know bolster our identity and so on and so they look to ancient and so on and so they look to ancient and so on and so they look to ancient Egypt to do that and that again is Egypt to do that and that again is Egypt to do that and that again is something which annoys um some Egyptians something which annoys um some Egyptians something which annoys um some Egyptians as we've seen from the social media kind as we've seen from the social media kind as we've seen from the social media kind of exchanges um and that is for the of exchanges um and that is for the of exchanges um and that is for the reasons I've explained but it is also reasons I've explained but it is also reasons I've explained but it is also because in because in because in 6401 um Common Era the Arabs conquered 6401 um Common Era the Arabs conquered 6401 um Common Era the Arabs conquered Egypt and settled there and obviously Egypt and settled there and obviously Egypt and settled there and obviously mixed with the Egyptians and the mixed with the Egyptians and the mixed with the Egyptians and the Egyptians assumed the Arabic language Egyptians assumed the Arabic language Egyptians assumed the Arabic language and they also assumed Arab ideology and they also assumed Arab ideology and they also assumed Arab ideology which made them feel that perhaps they which made them feel that perhaps they which made them feel that perhaps they were a bit separate from the rest of were a bit separate from the rest of were a bit separate from the rest of Africa because they became part of the Africa because they became part of the Africa because they became part of the arabized north of AA Africa so that's arabized north of AA Africa so that's arabized north of AA Africa so that's another reason why that sometimes another reason why that sometimes another reason why that sometimes there's a bit of a distance between um there's a bit of a distance between um there's a bit of a distance between um Egyptians today and the rest of the Egyptians today and the rest of the Egyptians today and the rest of the continent but I firmly believe that the continent but I firmly believe that the continent but I firmly believe that the arabized north of Africa is as much part arabized north of Africa is as much part arabized north of Africa is as much part of the continent's history and is as of the continent's history and is as of the continent's history and is as much part of Africa as any other part of much part of Africa as any other part of much part of Africa as any other part of the continent that's something I really the continent that's something I really the continent that's something I really got from your book it was a reminder you got from your book it was a reminder you got from your book it was a reminder you know you'd mentioned the the sort of know you'd mentioned the the sort of know you'd mentioned the the sort of interesting ethnicity of Egyptian interesting ethnicity of Egyptian interesting ethnicity of Egyptian pharaohs but you see that over and over pharaohs but you see that over and over pharaohs but you see that over and over you see it with the Roman emperors too you see it with the Roman emperors too you see it with the Roman emperors too right I mean by the time you get to the right I mean by the time you get to the right I mean by the time you get to the Empire they're coming from all over the Empire they're coming from all over the Empire they're coming from all over the place right it's a Cosmopolitan sort of

place right it's a Cosmopolitan sort of place right it's a Cosmopolitan sort of AAL and you reminded me something that AAL and you reminded me something that AAL and you reminded me something that again if you just look at a map you again if you just look at a map you again if you just look at a map you should know but it it it escapes you should know but it it it escapes you should know but it it it escapes you sometimes how narrow the Red Sea is and sometimes how narrow the Red Sea is and sometimes how narrow the Red Sea is and how close the the eastern African Coast how close the the eastern African Coast how close the the eastern African Coast is from a place like Arabia and you were is from a place like Arabia and you were is from a place like Arabia and you were pointing out in your book and again this pointing out in your book and again this pointing out in your book and again this was history I did not I was unaware of was history I did not I was unaware of was history I did not I was unaware of but should have known better that there but should have known better that there but should have known better that there would have been cross Red Sea contact would have been cross Red Sea contact would have been cross Red Sea contact between Eastern Africa and Arabia going between Eastern Africa and Arabia going between Eastern Africa and Arabia going back to prehistoric times can you talk a back to prehistoric times can you talk a back to prehistoric times can you talk a little bit about I mean that that's you little bit about I mean that that's you little bit about I mean that that's you know we think about Outsiders coming know we think about Outsiders coming know we think about Outsiders coming into Africa and influencing Africa we into Africa and influencing Africa we into Africa and influencing Africa we forget that that's going to be a two-way forget that that's going to be a two-way forget that that's going to be a two-way street and that Traders always have street and that Traders always have street and that Traders always have stuff that people want from farflung stuff that people want from farflung stuff that people want from farflung distances talk to me a little about distances talk to me a little about distances talk to me a little about maybe maybe maybe pre-islamic um contacts between Eastern pre-islamic um contacts between Eastern pre-islamic um contacts between Eastern Africa and what we would call Western Africa and what we would call Western Africa and what we would call Western Asia absolutely so you know at its Asia absolutely so you know at its Asia absolutely so you know at its closest point the Arabian uh Peninsula closest point the Arabian uh Peninsula closest point the Arabian uh Peninsula is only about 17 less than 20 kilometers is only about 17 less than 20 kilometers is only about 17 less than 20 kilometers from the East African Red Sea Coast and from the East African Red Sea Coast and from the East African Red Sea Coast and that's in modern day Eritrea today so that's in modern day Eritrea today so that's in modern day Eritrea today so right from the get-go you had um you right from the get-go you had um you right from the get-go you had um you know an exchange of people between the know an exchange of people between the know an exchange of people between the two and um in around 600 BCE you had two and um in around 600 BCE you had two and um in around 600 BCE you had people called The seans Who Came From people called The seans Who Came From people called The seans Who Came From what would be modernday Yemen and they what would be modernday Yemen and they what would be modernday Yemen and they crossed the um the Red Sea and they crossed the um the Red Sea and they crossed the um the Red Sea and they settled in what would call Ethiopia and settled in what would call Ethiopia and settled in what would call Ethiopia and erria today and um you know there was an erria today and um you know there was an erria today and um you know there was an exchange of ideas and uh belief and you

exchange of ideas and uh belief and you exchange of ideas and uh belief and you know um between the two peoples in terms know um between the two peoples in terms know um between the two peoples in terms of how they um farmed how they um you of how they um farmed how they um you of how they um farmed how they um you know executed their animal husbandry um know executed their animal husbandry um know executed their animal husbandry um their religion um they worshiped the their religion um they worshiped the their religion um they worshiped the moon God Maka and um also the saan moon God Maka and um also the saan moon God Maka and um also the saan language influenced the um what we would language influenced the um what we would language influenced the um what we would call the um Gaz language which is the call the um Gaz language which is the call the um Gaz language which is the kind of Forerunner as it were of the kind of Forerunner as it were of the kind of Forerunner as it were of the modern day Amharic and tigrinia that is modern day Amharic and tigrinia that is modern day Amharic and tigrinia that is spoken in Ethiopia and Eritrea and the spoken in Ethiopia and Eritrea and the spoken in Ethiopia and Eritrea and the alphabet looks quite similar so you know alphabet looks quite similar so you know alphabet looks quite similar so you know yes there were Traders some would come yes there were Traders some would come yes there were Traders some would come some would go back but then there were some would go back but then there were some would go back but then there were also these settlers and so um you you also these settlers and so um you you also these settlers and so um you you know you you see that from the get-go know you you see that from the get-go know you you see that from the get-go and you see it now in the appearance of and you see it now in the appearance of and you see it now in the appearance of the people there there are some who look the people there there are some who look the people there there are some who look you know quite arabized in Eritrea and you know quite arabized in Eritrea and you know quite arabized in Eritrea and Ethiopia and those links have just Ethiopia and those links have just Ethiopia and those links have just existed throughout the centuries and to existed throughout the centuries and to existed throughout the centuries and to this day you'll see trade going between this day you'll see trade going between this day you'll see trade going between the two um you'll see that Arabic is the two um you'll see that Arabic is the two um you'll see that Arabic is very widely spoken along that Red Sea very widely spoken along that Red Sea very widely spoken along that Red Sea Coast um of um East Africa in Eritrea Coast um of um East Africa in Eritrea Coast um of um East Africa in Eritrea and um you know well Ethiopia doesn't and um you know well Ethiopia doesn't and um you know well Ethiopia doesn't have a Red Sea Coast because Ethiopia is have a Red Sea Coast because Ethiopia is have a Red Sea Coast because Ethiopia is landlocked but Eritrea and Ethiopia of landlocked but Eritrea and Ethiopia of landlocked but Eritrea and Ethiopia of course historically uh the kingdom of course historically uh the kingdom of course historically uh the kingdom of axim and so on it was all just um one axim and so on it was all just um one axim and so on it was all just um one region but certainly along the red Sea region but certainly along the red Sea region but certainly along the red Sea Coast of Eritrea jibuti and so on you Coast of Eritrea jibuti and so on you Coast of Eritrea jibuti and so on you know Arabic is spoken very very know Arabic is spoken very very know Arabic is spoken very very extensively and that's the point you extensively and that's the point you extensively and that's the point you know people always migrated we tend to

know people always migrated we tend to know people always migrated we tend to think of migration as a kind of more think of migration as a kind of more think of migration as a kind of more modern phenomenon and people you know modern phenomenon and people you know modern phenomenon and people you know saying oh we don't want these irregular saying oh we don't want these irregular saying oh we don't want these irregular migrants you know be it people from you migrants you know be it people from you migrants you know be it people from you know coming from Mexico into the United know coming from Mexico into the United know coming from Mexico into the United States or from the Middle East and States or from the Middle East and States or from the Middle East and Africa into Europe and so on but Africa into Europe and so on but Africa into Europe and so on but migration is also is you know is as long migration is also is you know is as long migration is also is you know is as long as um as history people have always as um as history people have always as um as history people have always migrated and it's led to a kind of mange migrated and it's led to a kind of mange migrated and it's led to a kind of mange let's talk about some of the Glamorous let's talk about some of the Glamorous let's talk about some of the Glamorous stuff from from a standpoint of of of stuff from from a standpoint of of of stuff from from a standpoint of of of the great oral stories where you've got the great oral stories where you've got the great oral stories where you've got kings and queens and battles and all the kings and queens and battles and all the kings and queens and battles and all the the romantic stuff um there are some the romantic stuff um there are some the romantic stuff um there are some fantastic kings and queens of of ancient fantastic kings and queens of of ancient fantastic kings and queens of of ancient uh Kush and and people who you know when uh Kush and and people who you know when uh Kush and and people who you know when I was growing up and got interested in I was growing up and got interested in I was growing up and got interested in it they talked about these crusading it they talked about these crusading it they talked about these crusading armies of the ancient kushites who were armies of the ancient kushites who were armies of the ancient kushites who were so religious that they responded so religious that they responded so religious that they responded negative ly to uh uh the sort of ways of negative ly to uh uh the sort of ways of negative ly to uh uh the sort of ways of the the Libyan Egyptian Dynasty where the the Libyan Egyptian Dynasty where the the Libyan Egyptian Dynasty where the kushites may have seen them as the kushites may have seen them as the kushites may have seen them as somewhat corrupt and not religious somewhat corrupt and not religious somewhat corrupt and not religious enough talk to me give me some of the enough talk to me give me some of the enough talk to me give me some of the romance of these great early kushite romance of these great early kushite romance of these great early kushite kings and queens and what they did so kings and queens and what they did so kings and queens and what they did so this King Panki who who's the famous one this King Panki who who's the famous one this King Panki who who's the famous one right the the great conqueror yes right the the great conqueror yes right the the great conqueror yes sometimes known as PA p i ye or Panki sometimes known as PA p i ye or Panki sometimes known as PA p i ye or Panki and he was in the early 700s and he was in the early 700s and he was in the early 700s BCE and um he because the ancient BCE and um he because the ancient BCE and um he because the ancient Egyptians and ancient sudin worship the Egyptians and ancient sudin worship the Egyptians and ancient sudin worship the same deities and so they were aware that same deities and so they were aware that same deities and so they were aware that the libyans who didn't really respect the libyans who didn't really respect the libyans who didn't really respect ancient Egyptian religion for the most

ancient Egyptian religion for the most ancient Egyptian religion for the most part and they saw that you know the part and they saw that you know the part and they saw that you know the center of carac Thieves the religious center of carac Thieves the religious center of carac Thieves the religious heart thieves of ancient Egypt was kind heart thieves of ancient Egypt was kind heart thieves of ancient Egypt was kind of going to rack and ruin and that the of going to rack and ruin and that the of going to rack and ruin and that the Libyan Pharaohs were not really Libyan Pharaohs were not really Libyan Pharaohs were not really maintaining the great traditions of maintaining the great traditions of maintaining the great traditions of ancient Egypt and so panii you know ancient Egypt and so panii you know ancient Egypt and so panii you know really um considered this you know an really um considered this you know an really um considered this you know an absolutely awful thing um that had absolutely awful thing um that had absolutely awful thing um that had happened and he was a real kind of very happened and he was a real kind of very happened and he was a real kind of very brave um King he had gone in with his um brave um King he had gone in with his um brave um King he had gone in with his um father cter um earlier it was King kter father cter um earlier it was King kter father cter um earlier it was King kter who first of all went in a foray into who first of all went in a foray into who first of all went in a foray into ancient Egypt but it was panii who ancient Egypt but it was panii who ancient Egypt but it was panii who carried his father's um deed a little carried his father's um deed a little carried his father's um deed a little bit further panii sort of strikes you as bit further panii sort of strikes you as bit further panii sort of strikes you as a little bit of a kind of um he was a a little bit of a kind of um he was a a little bit of a kind of um he was a bit Pious but not a megalomaniac but he bit Pious but not a megalomaniac but he bit Pious but not a megalomaniac but he had a great sense of himself you know we had a great sense of himself you know we had a great sense of himself you know we know a lot about him because of the know a lot about him because of the know a lot about him because of the panii Steeler which um records you know panii Steeler which um records you know panii Steeler which um records you know how he how he how he um you a touch of the megalomaniac a bit um you a touch of the megalomaniac a bit um you a touch of the megalomaniac a bit of the him you know he would say you of the him you know he would say you of the him you know he would say you know let the chiefs of the Northlands know let the chiefs of the Northlands know let the chiefs of the Northlands taste the taste of my fingers and um he taste the taste of my fingers and um he taste the taste of my fingers and um he went into Egypt and um he his men you went into Egypt and um he his men you went into Egypt and um he his men you know would go into the temple and Temple know would go into the temple and Temple know would go into the temple and Temple and wash themselves and pray and so on and wash themselves and pray and so on and wash themselves and pray and so on on their bellies and then they'd go in on their bellies and then they'd go in on their bellies and then they'd go in and fight very skilled archers they had

and fight very skilled archers they had and fight very skilled archers they had a particular way it was called the a particular way it was called the a particular way it was called the Mongolian release of actually firing Mongolian release of actually firing Mongolian release of actually firing their bow and arrow with their thumb their bow and arrow with their thumb their bow and arrow with their thumb rather than the Mediterranean release rather than the Mediterranean release rather than the Mediterranean release which was with the index finger and um which was with the index finger and um which was with the index finger and um Panki made sure that he really finished Panki made sure that he really finished Panki made sure that he really finished off the princes the Egyptian princes of off the princes the Egyptian princes of off the princes the Egyptian princes of the Delta because there were various the Delta because there were various the Delta because there were various sort of um princes in local areas who sort of um princes in local areas who sort of um princes in local areas who kind of paid allegiance to the central kind of paid allegiance to the central kind of paid allegiance to the central Pharaoh but they had their own Thoms and Pharaoh but they had their own Thoms and Pharaoh but they had their own Thoms and there was one particular one called te there was one particular one called te there was one particular one called te who was pre proving a little bit um who was pre proving a little bit um who was pre proving a little bit um obdurate and um was was still managing obdurate and um was was still managing obdurate and um was was still managing to avoid defeat by Pan's uh men but um to avoid defeat by Pan's uh men but um to avoid defeat by Pan's uh men but um Panki finally got the better of him and Panki finally got the better of him and Panki finally got the better of him and um you know these men threw um you know these men threw um you know these men threw themselves Prince stanach on their themselves Prince stanach on their themselves Prince stanach on their stomachs and said you know okay we we stomachs and said you know okay we we stomachs and said you know okay we we give up um we accept that you are um the give up um we accept that you are um the give up um we accept that you are um the Pharaoh and that you are the powerful Pharaoh and that you are the powerful Pharaoh and that you are the powerful one you you know they opened their one you you know they opened their one you you know they opened their Treasures um in their rooms for him they Treasures um in their rooms for him they Treasures um in their rooms for him they said to him take our women if you like said to him take our women if you like said to him take our women if you like as your concubines and so on but pan as your concubines and so on but pan as your concubines and so on but pan because he was quite P was like no I because he was quite P was like no I because he was quite P was like no I don't want your women you know keep them don't want your women you know keep them don't want your women you know keep them let them maintain their modesty he took let them maintain their modesty he took let them maintain their modesty he took the the treasure but then he said show the the treasure but then he said show the the treasure but then he said show me the stables and when he saw that the me the stables and when he saw that the me the stables and when he saw that the stable was full of horses that had

stable was full of horses that had stable was full of horses that had become so emaciated because of the siege become so emaciated because of the siege become so emaciated because of the siege of hermopolis because the the kushite of hermopolis because the the kushite of hermopolis because the the kushite soldiers had encircled um hermopolis and soldiers had encircled um hermopolis and soldiers had encircled um hermopolis and so the people inside obviously you know so the people inside obviously you know so the people inside obviously you know starving and obviously the horses were starving and obviously the horses were starving and obviously the horses were practically dying and it said that on practically dying and it said that on practically dying and it said that on the Steeler that um panii became enraged the Steeler that um panii became enraged the Steeler that um panii became enraged like a panther and said nothing that like a panther and said nothing that like a panther and said nothing that you've done has angered me as much as you've done has angered me as much as you've done has angered me as much as allowing these horses to practically allowing these horses to practically allowing these horses to practically starve to death because the kushites starve to death because the kushites starve to death because the kushites adored their horses and panii especially adored their horses and panii especially adored their horses and panii especially um you know really just valued his um you know really just valued his um you know really just valued his horses to the extent that when he died horses to the extent that when he died horses to the extent that when he died he was buried with his four horses hes he was buried with his four horses hes he was buried with his four horses hes the horses would have been buried alive the horses would have been buried alive the horses would have been buried alive with him and they were dressed you know with him and they were dressed you know with him and they were dressed you know with their tails all beautifully brushed with their tails all beautifully brushed with their tails all beautifully brushed and wearing you know silver plumes and and wearing you know silver plumes and and wearing you know silver plumes and decorated um so you know panii I think decorated um so you know panii I think decorated um so you know panii I think is a a very very fascinating character is a a very very fascinating character is a a very very fascinating character because um after he conquered Egypt and because um after he conquered Egypt and because um after he conquered Egypt and so on he just um took all his Beauty so on he just um took all his Beauty so on he just um took all his Beauty back with him and went back to Kush and back with him and went back to Kush and back with him and went back to Kush and never returned to uh Egypt never returned to uh Egypt never returned to uh Egypt so you know they are just very very so you know they are just very very so you know they are just very very colorful characters um taharka also um colorful characters um taharka also um colorful characters um taharka also um was also a very colorful character he's was also a very colorful character he's was also a very colorful character he's actually mentioned in the actually mentioned in the actually mentioned in the bible as Tara of Ethiopia Ethiopia just

bible as Tara of Ethiopia Ethiopia just bible as Tara of Ethiopia Ethiopia just means the land of the blacks in ancient means the land of the blacks in ancient means the land of the blacks in ancient Greek so if ever you see a reference to Greek so if ever you see a reference to Greek so if ever you see a reference to Ethiopia in the Bible or in ancient Ethiopia in the Bible or in ancient Ethiopia in the Bible or in ancient Greek um writings it doesn't refer to Greek um writings it doesn't refer to Greek um writings it doesn't refer to Ethiopia the country today it really ref Ethiopia the country today it really ref Ethiopia the country today it really ref refers to the kushites the kingdom of refers to the kushites the kingdom of refers to the kushites the kingdom of kush um that's how they were referred to kush um that's how they were referred to kush um that's how they were referred to and tahara was um again you know an and tahara was um again you know an and tahara was um again you know an amazing Soldier King and um he fought amazing Soldier King and um he fought amazing Soldier King and um he fought the Egyptians he fought and he he fought the Egyptians he fought and he he fought the Egyptians he fought and he he fought the Assyrians and really had a great the Assyrians and really had a great the Assyrians and really had a great deal of success in his encounters with deal of success in his encounters with deal of success in his encounters with them but was ultimately um defeated by them but was ultimately um defeated by them but was ultimately um defeated by them um so I just think that they are them um so I just think that they are them um so I just think that they are such um colorful characters and they are such um colorful characters and they are such um colorful characters and they are you know my most famous my most uh you know my most famous my most uh you know my most famous my most uh popular um figures in ancient um African popular um figures in ancient um African popular um figures in ancient um African history although there are many more history although there are many more history although there are many more colorful there are other colorful colorful there are other colorful colorful there are other colorful characters also oh your book is filled characters also oh your book is filled characters also oh your book is filled with them I I feel like I'm cheating you with them I I feel like I'm cheating you with them I I feel like I'm cheating you a little bit by focusing on what I want a little bit by focusing on what I want a little bit by focusing on what I want to focus on when when your book is to focus on when when your book is to focus on when when your book is really a catalog from the beginning really a catalog from the beginning really a catalog from the beginning almost to the end from the north of the almost to the end from the north of the almost to the end from the north of the continent to the South to the east you continent to the South to the east you continent to the South to the east you cover the whole thing which is amazing cover the whole thing which is amazing cover the whole thing which is amazing and you do so in such an accessible way and you do so in such an accessible way and you do so in such an accessible way um talk to me a little bit about I mean um talk to me a little bit about I mean um talk to me a little bit about I mean when I think about these um these when I think about these um these when I think about these um these kushite Kings you think about them sort kushite Kings you think about them sort kushite Kings you think about them sort of taking over Egypt's normal of taking over Egypt's normal of taking over Egypt's normal geopolitical role I mean they're geopolitical role I mean they're geopolitical role I mean they're involved they have their base at Gaza involved they have their base at Gaza involved they have their base at Gaza they're involved in the in the Levant they're involved in the in the Levant they're involved in the in the Levant and as you said they they begin their and as you said they they begin their and as you said they they begin their connections although you know the

connections although you know the connections although you know the ancient Egyptians before that even had ancient Egyptians before that even had ancient Egyptians before that even had connections to Judaism to the Bible connections to Judaism to the Bible connections to Judaism to the Bible which will then I mean I was looking at which will then I mean I was looking at which will then I mean I was looking at at one point in Eastern Africa you have at one point in Eastern Africa you have at one point in Eastern Africa you have Judaism Islam and Christianity all sort Judaism Islam and Christianity all sort Judaism Islam and Christianity all sort of in a mange in that area can you talk of in a mange in that area can you talk of in a mange in that area can you talk to me about it I mean it's an to me about it I mean it's an to me about it I mean it's an interesting role when you think about interesting role when you think about interesting role when you think about the biblical connection you know we the biblical connection you know we the biblical connection you know we talked about the connection between the talked about the connection between the talked about the connection between the ancient Egyptian religion and the ancient Egyptian religion and the ancient Egyptian religion and the kushites but then we just morph right kushites but then we just morph right kushites but then we just morph right into monotheism and the ab abrahamic into monotheism and the ab abrahamic into monotheism and the ab abrahamic religions talk to me a little bit about religions talk to me a little bit about religions talk to me a little bit about that connection because there's a that connection because there's a that connection because there's a Solomon connection that goes all the way Solomon connection that goes all the way Solomon connection that goes all the way to the mid to the mid to the mid 1970s um between the people in that 1970s um between the people in that 1970s um between the people in that region and what was an ancient J you region and what was an ancient J you region and what was an ancient J you know Israel and Judah right going back know Israel and Judah right going back know Israel and Judah right going back to the ancient biblical times can you to the ancient biblical times can you to the ancient biblical times can you talk to me a little about that talk to me a little about that talk to me a little about that connection sure and just before I start connection sure and just before I start connection sure and just before I start that you're absolutely right that you that you're absolutely right that you that you're absolutely right that you know Africa is um a place where the know Africa is um a place where the know Africa is um a place where the three monotheistic religions actually three monotheistic religions actually three monotheistic religions actually you know really really thrived and from you know really really thrived and from you know really really thrived and from a very early stage and there are those a very early stage and there are those a very early stage and there are those who actually say um akatan who was the who actually say um akatan who was the who actually say um akatan who was the father of tutin kmen who's you know father of tutin kmen who's you know father of tutin kmen who's you know probably the best known of the Pharaoh probably the best known of the Pharaoh probably the best known of the Pharaoh the great heretic right yeah although the great heretic right yeah although the great heretic right yeah although yes exactly well tjan kman himself you yes exactly well tjan kman himself you yes exactly well tjan kman himself you know was very insignificant just know was very insignificant just know was very insignificant just everybody knows about him because of all everybody knows about him because of all everybody knows about him because of all the the the fabulous um you know the the the fabulous um you know the the the fabulous um you know Treasures that were found in his tomb Treasures that were found in his tomb Treasures that were found in his tomb but akatan was the great heretic because but akatan was the great heretic because but akatan was the great heretic because he you know he he actually rejected the he you know he he actually rejected the he you know he he actually rejected the multiple deities of ancient Egyptian uh multiple deities of ancient Egyptian uh multiple deities of ancient Egyptian uh religion and worship and said actually religion and worship and said actually religion and worship and said actually we ought to have just one and so some

we ought to have just one and so some we ought to have just one and so some people credit him as being the first people credit him as being the first people credit him as being the first monotheist when he died there was much monotheist when he died there was much monotheist when he died there was much relief at the Royal Court in in Egypt relief at the Royal Court in in Egypt relief at the Royal Court in in Egypt because they thought now we can go back because they thought now we can go back because they thought now we can go back to how we used to worship and so they to how we used to worship and so they to how we used to worship and so they Delight of that totin kman was this boy Delight of that totin kman was this boy Delight of that totin kman was this boy King only nine years of age who didn't King only nine years of age who didn't King only nine years of age who didn't know any better and so let them just go know any better and so let them just go know any better and so let them just go back to their old ways and that probably back to their old ways and that probably back to their old ways and that probably is the only significance of tutin kman is the only significance of tutin kman is the only significance of tutin kman who died very uh you know young in his who died very uh you know young in his who died very uh you know young in his late teens but um the um you know the late teens but um the um you know the late teens but um the um you know the religions of Christianity Judaism and religions of Christianity Judaism and religions of Christianity Judaism and Islam all have strong roots in Africa so Islam all have strong roots in Africa so Islam all have strong roots in Africa so Christianity in particular a lot of Christianity in particular a lot of Christianity in particular a lot of people think Christianity was brought to people think Christianity was brought to people think Christianity was brought to Africa with the missionaries is Africa with the missionaries is Africa with the missionaries is operating in the 1800s mostly from operating in the 1800s mostly from operating in the 1800s mostly from countries like Britain you know we all countries like Britain you know we all countries like Britain you know we all know about the Dr David Livingston and know about the Dr David Livingston and know about the Dr David Livingston and so on um they know about the Portuguese so on um they know about the Portuguese so on um they know about the Portuguese Jesuit um priests who also went and Jesuit um priests who also went and Jesuit um priests who also went and tried to convert people but actually tried to convert people but actually tried to convert people but actually Christianity has far older roots in Christianity has far older roots in Christianity has far older roots in Africa and that's best exemplified by Africa and that's best exemplified by Africa and that's best exemplified by King aana Of axum Who Lived in the 300s King aana Of axum Who Lived in the 300s King aana Of axum Who Lived in the 300s Common Era and by about Common Era and by about Common Era and by about 330 um Common Era or ad as some people 330 um Common Era or ad as some people 330 um Common Era or ad as some people say um aana had made Christianity his say um aana had made Christianity his say um aana had made Christianity his Kingdom's official religion he was a Kingdom's official religion he was a Kingdom's official religion he was a pagan before that and after pagan before that and after pagan before that and after Armenia axom was the second Kingdom in Armenia axom was the second Kingdom in Armenia axom was the second Kingdom in the world to assume Christianity as its the world to assume Christianity as its the world to assume Christianity as its official religion and axom of course is official religion and axom of course is official religion and axom of course is in Northern Ethiopia also Incorporated

in Northern Ethiopia also Incorporated in Northern Ethiopia also Incorporated parts of Eritrea today and the that was parts of Eritrea today and the that was parts of Eritrea today and the that was the case that Christianity was the the case that Christianity was the the case that Christianity was the official religion of Ethiopia official religion of Ethiopia official religion of Ethiopia and Eritrea until and Eritrea until and Eritrea until 1975 when the emperor hila salassi was 1975 when the emperor hila salassi was 1975 when the emperor hila salassi was removed from Power um removed from Power um removed from Power um the the the Ethiopians all believe in the the the Ethiopians all believe in the the the Ethiopians all believe in their history um beginning with um the their history um beginning with um the their history um beginning with um the story of King Solomon and um the fact story of King Solomon and um the fact story of King Solomon and um the fact that King Solomon had an affair um which that King Solomon had an affair um which that King Solomon had an affair um which gave rise to um menelik their um with gave rise to um menelik their um with gave rise to um menelik their um with the Queen of Sheba sorry I to say that the Queen of Sheba sorry I to say that the Queen of Sheba sorry I to say that again that King Solomon had um an affair again that King Solomon had um an affair again that King Solomon had um an affair with the Queen of Sheba she had a son with the Queen of Sheba she had a son with the Queen of Sheba she had a son and the queen of shivba the Ethiopians and the queen of shivba the Ethiopians and the queen of shivba the Ethiopians believe is from Ethiopia she had a son believe is from Ethiopia she had a son believe is from Ethiopia she had a son menelik the first who became the first menelik the first who became the first menelik the first who became the first emperor the Solomon um Dynasty and um emperor the Solomon um Dynasty and um emperor the Solomon um Dynasty and um that continued with some interruptions that continued with some interruptions that continued with some interruptions right until right until right until 1975 and so this is all recorded in the 1975 and so this is all recorded in the 1975 and so this is all recorded in the books called the kbra neast which were books called the kbra neast which were books called the kbra neast which were written in the 14th century by probably written in the 14th century by probably written in the 14th century by probably several authors and it means the glory several authors and it means the glory several authors and it means the glory of the kings in the Amharic relig of the kings in the Amharic relig of the kings in the Amharic relig language and um you know that's that's language and um you know that's that's language and um you know that's that's the that's the story of um of how the that's the story of um of how the that's the story of um of how Ethiopia came into being from for most Ethiopia came into being from for most Ethiopia came into being from for most Ethiopians today there's some question Ethiopians today there's some question Ethiopians today there's some question as to whether the Queen of Sheba could

as to whether the Queen of Sheba could as to whether the Queen of Sheba could actually have coincided with um Solomon actually have coincided with um Solomon actually have coincided with um Solomon because that would have made her um because that would have made her um because that would have made her um living around the 10th century CE living around the 10th century CE living around the 10th century CE hypothetically speaking and if you go to hypothetically speaking and if you go to hypothetically speaking and if you go to Ethiopia outside axum um in a place Ethiopia outside axum um in a place Ethiopia outside axum um in a place called dungu there's this amazing uh the called dungu there's this amazing uh the called dungu there's this amazing uh the ruins of an amazing Castel with remnants ruins of an amazing Castel with remnants ruins of an amazing Castel with remnants of a you know huge kitchen and bedrooms of a you know huge kitchen and bedrooms of a you know huge kitchen and bedrooms and and so on it would have been a very and and so on it would have been a very and and so on it would have been a very fine Palace and people would say to you fine Palace and people would say to you fine Palace and people would say to you locally that is the home of the queen of locally that is the home of the queen of locally that is the home of the queen of Shiva archaeologists would say that it Shiva archaeologists would say that it Shiva archaeologists would say that it dates to a much much later era and dates to a much much later era and dates to a much much later era and probably was the home of a nobleman but probably was the home of a nobleman but probably was the home of a nobleman but it just shows you how myths sometimes it just shows you how myths sometimes it just shows you how myths sometimes can you know encounter inconvenient can you know encounter inconvenient can you know encounter inconvenient truths but we mustn't detract from the truths but we mustn't detract from the truths but we mustn't detract from the fact that people fact that people fact that people want some kind of you know Legends to want some kind of you know Legends to want some kind of you know Legends to help build their identities and to you help build their identities and to you help build their identities and to you know create their own histories and we know create their own histories and we know create their own histories and we must respect that it's also romantic and must respect that it's also romantic and must respect that it's also romantic and exciting and colorful I mean you talk exciting and colorful I mean you talk exciting and colorful I mean you talk about that wonderful idea that it's about that wonderful idea that it's about that wonderful idea that it's possible that there's a tradition that possible that there's a tradition that possible that there's a tradition that the Ark of the Covenant is in that area the Ark of the Covenant is in that area the Ark of the Covenant is in that area in other words taken for safekeeping and in other words taken for safekeeping and in other words taken for safekeeping and they take it to to uh to Africa and away they take it to to uh to Africa and away they take it to to uh to Africa and away from from the Holy Land because the from from the Holy Land because the from from the Holy Land because the Assyrians are coming amongst other Assyrians are coming amongst other Assyrians are coming amongst other people right it's a geopolitical people right it's a geopolitical people right it's a geopolitical nightmare in that area as a Crossroads nightmare in that area as a Crossroads nightmare in that area as a Crossroads you want to get things like the Ark of you want to get things like the Ark of you want to get things like the Ark of the Covenant to a nice safe place the Covenant to a nice safe place the Covenant to a nice safe place absolutely you talked about I I I absolutely you talked about I I I absolutely you talked about I I I because speaking of color you were because speaking of color you were because speaking of color you were talking about one axom king who went talking about one axom king who went talking about one axom king who went into war I wrote it down it quote in a

into war I wrote it down it quote in a into war I wrote it down it quote in a costume of linen and gold adorned with costume of linen and gold adorned with costume of linen and gold adorned with jewels and Beads riding on a golden jewels and Beads riding on a golden jewels and Beads riding on a golden chariot pulled by four elephants and chariot pulled by four elephants and chariot pulled by four elephants and then sainted I I I love that story can then sainted I I I love that story can then sainted I I I love that story can you just tell us a little about that and you just tell us a little about that and you just tell us a little about that and I realize that's a later period than I realize that's a later period than I realize that's a later period than what we've been dealing with but I get what we've been dealing with but I get what we've been dealing with but I get taken over by the romance and the color taken over by the romance and the color taken over by the romance and the color yeah that was King Caleb who um was um yeah that was King Caleb who um was um yeah that was King Caleb who um was um he he was a very devout Christian King he he was a very devout Christian King he he was a very devout Christian King and he um went into Southern Yemen um in and he um went into Southern Yemen um in and he um went into Southern Yemen um in order to help his fellow Christians order to help his fellow Christians order to help his fellow Christians because it was said at the time that because it was said at the time that because it was said at the time that they were being persecuted by um peoples they were being persecuted by um peoples they were being persecuted by um peoples who followed the Jewish religion so he who followed the Jewish religion so he who followed the Jewish religion so he went in dress exactly as you uh just went in dress exactly as you uh just went in dress exactly as you uh just described and he was a sort of great described and he was a sort of great described and he was a sort of great Christian King he had um support from um Christian King he had um support from um Christian King he had um support from um the the the Portuguese uh and he went in and he Portuguese uh and he went in and he Portuguese uh and he went in and he managed to um save the uh Christians of managed to um save the uh Christians of managed to um save the uh Christians of Southern Yemen um from from the Jews um Southern Yemen um from from the Jews um Southern Yemen um from from the Jews um it was it was the leader of the Jewish it was it was the leader of the Jewish it was it was the leader of the Jewish people was new newa iwas you'd have to people was new newa iwas you'd have to people was new newa iwas you'd have to just check that one the spelling the just check that one the spelling the just check that one the spelling the pronunciation I'm very very pronunciation I'm very very pronunciation I'm very very sympathetic and um and so and then after sympathetic and um and so and then after sympathetic and um and so and then after he had um you know corrected this this he had um you know corrected this this he had um you know corrected this this Injustice to the Christians he then went Injustice to the Christians he then went Injustice to the Christians he then went back to his Capital um in in in what back to his Capital um in in in what back to his Capital um in in in what would be modern day Ethiopia and some

would be modern day Ethiopia and some would be modern day Ethiopia and some accounts say that he just carried on you accounts say that he just carried on you accounts say that he just carried on you know in his reign was a very kind of know in his reign was a very kind of know in his reign was a very kind of magnanimous man and other accounts say magnanimous man and other accounts say magnanimous man and other accounts say that actually he retreated and and that actually he retreated and and that actually he retreated and and became a monk and just he spent the rest became a monk and just he spent the rest became a monk and just he spent the rest of his years the next 15 years of his of his years the next 15 years of his of his years the next 15 years of his life before he died in a monastery so um life before he died in a monastery so um life before he died in a monastery so um you know that is a uh that is a very you know that is a uh that is a very you know that is a uh that is a very very interesting story I'll have to find very interesting story I'll have to find very interesting story I'll have to find you the dates of King Caleb but um it is you the dates of King Caleb but um it is you the dates of King Caleb but um it is it is a bit later as you say for than it is a bit later as you say for than it is a bit later as you say for than than isana I won't let you go without than isana I won't let you go without than isana I won't let you go without dealing with one of the the sort of of dealing with one of the the sort of of dealing with one of the the sort of of hidden parts of history that don't get hidden parts of history that don't get hidden parts of history that don't get enough attention which is this whole enough attention which is this whole enough attention which is this whole subject really but but I mean in your subject really but but I mean in your subject really but but I mean in your book you point out several times uh the book you point out several times uh the book you point out several times uh the importance of of women well in all importance of of women well in all importance of of women well in all societies right 50% of the population societies right 50% of the population societies right 50% of the population but but I mean I remember reading about but but I mean I remember reading about but but I mean I remember reading about the kushite women and how how the the kushite women and how how the the kushite women and how how the discussion was that they tended to be discussion was that they tended to be discussion was that they tended to be portrayed as rather heavy set because it portrayed as rather heavy set because it portrayed as rather heavy set because it was a sign of of the the wealth and the was a sign of of the the wealth and the was a sign of of the the wealth and the and the uh uh uh the the the ability of and the uh uh uh the the the ability of and the uh uh uh the the the ability of that Empire to support people who who that Empire to support people who who that Empire to support people who who could who could be fat and happy as we could who could be fat and happy as we could who could be fat and happy as we used to say uh and yet and yet when in used to say uh and yet and yet when in used to say uh and yet and yet when in your book you talk about uh the your book you talk about uh the your book you talk about uh the importance of queens and all these talk importance of queens and all these talk importance of queens and all these talk to me a little about about the African to me a little about about the African to me a little about about the African female experience here over the eras female experience here over the eras female experience here over the eras yeah you know this idea that African yeah you know this idea that African yeah you know this idea that African women are kind of downtrodden wretches women are kind of downtrodden wretches women are kind of downtrodden wretches is really not supported either by is really not supported either by is really not supported either by history or the present day if you go to history or the present day if you go to history or the present day if you go to any African country you know you'll go any African country you know you'll go any African country you know you'll go to the market and you'll see how it's to the market and you'll see how it's to the market and you'll see how it's dominated by these African women who dominated by these African women who dominated by these African women who grow their own food because most food is

grow their own food because most food is grow their own food because most food is produced by small farmers in Africa and produced by small farmers in Africa and produced by small farmers in Africa and most small farmers are the women and so most small farmers are the women and so most small farmers are the women and so any surplus they have they'll go to the any surplus they have they'll go to the any surplus they have they'll go to the market and they'll sell it and that's market and they'll sell it and that's market and they'll sell it and that's going to be you know good money for to going to be you know good money for to going to be you know good money for to bring up their children and for bring up their children and for bring up their children and for themselves and actually what their themselves and actually what their themselves and actually what their husbands are doing is almost by the way husbands are doing is almost by the way husbands are doing is almost by the way and that's always been the case that you and that's always been the case that you and that's always been the case that you know African women are are are very know African women are are are very know African women are are are very strong I mean in some cases they uh the strong I mean in some cases they uh the strong I mean in some cases they uh the line of succession was matal lineal as line of succession was matal lineal as line of succession was matal lineal as you saw with the Asanti people um you you saw with the Asanti people um you you saw with the Asanti people um you know in the case of the kushites Queens know in the case of the kushites Queens know in the case of the kushites Queens um kusai women had a very powerful role um kusai women had a very powerful role um kusai women had a very powerful role to play in society they could rule to play in society they could rule to play in society they could rule equally as co- Regents with their equally as co- Regents with their equally as co- Regents with their husbands or their sons they could be husbands or their sons they could be husbands or their sons they could be warrior queens um African history is warrior queens um African history is warrior queens um African history is littered with examples of strong female littered with examples of strong female littered with examples of strong female leadership such as Queen and Jinga of leadership such as Queen and Jinga of leadership such as Queen and Jinga of the indongo Kingdom which was a vassel the indongo Kingdom which was a vassel the indongo Kingdom which was a vassel state of the kingdom of Congo so she was state of the kingdom of Congo so she was state of the kingdom of Congo so she was born in born in born in 1563 and died in 1563 and died in 1563 and died in 1663 she was a remarkable woman who um 1663 she was a remarkable woman who um 1663 she was a remarkable woman who um fought the Portuguese I like her story fought the Portuguese I like her story fought the Portuguese I like her story because it shows how once the Europeans because it shows how once the Europeans because it shows how once the Europeans started encroaching on African land they started encroaching on African land they started encroaching on African land they didn't just take it lying down they didn't just take it lying down they didn't just take it lying down they resisted Queen in Jinga um after her resisted Queen in Jinga um after her resisted Queen in Jinga um after her brother died and killed himself she brother died and killed himself she brother died and killed himself she maneuvered herself into position of maneuvered herself into position of maneuvered herself into position of becoming the ruling Queen she was always becoming the ruling Queen she was always becoming the ruling Queen she was always marked out for Greatness by her father marked out for Greatness by her father marked out for Greatness by her father the king at the time who thought she was the king at the time who thought she was the king at the time who thought she was the most able of his children and he the most able of his children and he the most able of his children and he would take her to councils with him she would take her to councils with him she would take her to councils with him she was also very effective at wielding the

was also very effective at wielding the was also very effective at wielding the fighting axe um when her brother the fighting axe um when her brother the fighting axe um when her brother the king became king he asked her to go to king became king he asked her to go to king became king he asked her to go to um meet the governor of Luanda which is um meet the governor of Luanda which is um meet the governor of Luanda which is of course the modern day capital of of course the modern day capital of of course the modern day capital of Angola and their kingdom was about 250 Angola and their kingdom was about 250 Angola and their kingdom was about 250 miles away and he said go and tell the miles away and he said go and tell the miles away and he said go and tell the governor of Luanda who was Portuguese to governor of Luanda who was Portuguese to governor of Luanda who was Portuguese to stop taking our people as slaves and so stop taking our people as slaves and so stop taking our people as slaves and so she went dressed in her finery and went she went dressed in her finery and went she went dressed in her finery and went with this huge Entourage and when she with this huge Entourage and when she with this huge Entourage and when she arrived the governor Luanda sitting on arrived the governor Luanda sitting on arrived the governor Luanda sitting on this beautiful chair covered in velvet this beautiful chair covered in velvet this beautiful chair covered in velvet and Bost in Gold told her to sit on a and Bost in Gold told her to sit on a and Bost in Gold told her to sit on a rug on the floor to show her subordinate rug on the floor to show her subordinate rug on the floor to show her subordinate status she refused and chose her tallest status she refused and chose her tallest status she refused and chose her tallest female attendant told her to go on all female attendant told her to go on all female attendant told her to go on all fours and sat on her to negotiate with fours and sat on her to negotiate with fours and sat on her to negotiate with the governor of Luanda you know a the governor of Luanda you know a the governor of Luanda you know a marvelous story she outwitted the marvelous story she outwitted the marvelous story she outwitted the Portuguese you know at every turn for Portuguese you know at every turn for Portuguese you know at every turn for the best part part of a quarter of a the best part part of a quarter of a the best part part of a quarter of a century and died you know in her 80s century and died you know in her 80s century and died you know in her 80s with her crown on her head she died with her crown on her head she died with her crown on her head she died peacefully you know y a sanir who died peacefully you know y a sanir who died peacefully you know y a sanir who died in 1921 one who fought the British in a in 1921 one who fought the British in a in 1921 one who fought the British in a Santi land what would be modernday um Santi land what would be modernday um Santi land what would be modernday um Ghana you know there are many examples Ghana you know there are many examples Ghana you know there are many examples of strong female leadership because I of strong female leadership because I of strong female leadership because I think in history we take the his in think in history we take the his in think in history we take the his in history a bit too seriously his story history a bit too seriously his story history a bit too seriously his story it's her story and the queens of kush I it's her story and the queens of kush I it's her story and the queens of kush I go back to them because they were known go back to them because they were known go back to them because they were known as candas and in fact the the ancient as candas and in fact the the ancient as candas and in fact the the ancient Greeks Mist mistook that name for the Greeks Mist mistook that name for the Greeks Mist mistook that name for the name of a woman Canda they didn't name of a woman Canda they didn't name of a woman Canda they didn't realize it was the title for the queen

realize it was the title for the queen realize it was the title for the queen and that's where we get the modern day and that's where we get the modern day and that's where we get the modern day um women's name Candice from but the um women's name Candice from but the um women's name Candice from but the candas the queens of kush when the young candas the queens of kush when the young candas the queens of kush when the young women of Sudan Rose against Omar Al women of Sudan Rose against Omar Al women of Sudan Rose against Omar Al bashid you know who' ruled the country bashid you know who' ruled the country bashid you know who' ruled the country with an iron fist for 30 years when he with an iron fist for 30 years when he with an iron fist for 30 years when he was brought down in 2019 and women were was brought down in 2019 and women were was brought down in 2019 and women were in the Vanguard of those protests they in the Vanguard of those protests they in the Vanguard of those protests they styled themselves as the candas that's styled themselves as the candas that's styled themselves as the candas that's what they called themselves reaching what they called themselves reaching what they called themselves reaching back into their history with these back into their history with these back into their history with these strong female you know role Ro models to strong female you know role Ro models to strong female you know role Ro models to assert themselves today on the domestic assert themselves today on the domestic assert themselves today on the domestic you know political social cultural you know political social cultural you know political social cultural agenda of agenda of agenda of Sudan so I think it is very very Sudan so I think it is very very Sudan so I think it is very very important and and also ancient Egypt you important and and also ancient Egypt you important and and also ancient Egypt you know women had property enjoyed property know women had property enjoyed property know women had property enjoyed property rights at a time you know when women in rights at a time you know when women in rights at a time you know when women in Europe enjoyed those rights at a much Europe enjoyed those rights at a much Europe enjoyed those rights at a much much later stage Queen hatchepsut who much later stage Queen hatchepsut who much later stage Queen hatchepsut who ruled in the 14 50s in BCE in ancient ruled in the 14 50s in BCE in ancient ruled in the 14 50s in BCE in ancient Egypt was one of the most effective Egypt was one of the most effective Egypt was one of the most effective rulers of the new Kingdom um and you rulers of the new Kingdom um and you rulers of the new Kingdom um and you know she really swelled the Royal know she really swelled the Royal know she really swelled the Royal coffers she embarked on a really coffers she embarked on a really coffers she embarked on a really prolific building program and perhaps in prolific building program and perhaps in prolific building program and perhaps in deference to male iconographic deference to male iconographic deference to male iconographic Traditions she was often depicted in Traditions she was often depicted in Traditions she was often depicted in busts and statues sporting a beard um busts and statues sporting a beard um busts and statues sporting a beard um and in a kind of male guise um but you and in a kind of male guise um but you and in a kind of male guise um but you know there it is as a woman myself it's know there it is as a woman myself it's know there it is as a woman myself it's wonderful to to know that in history as wonderful to to know that in history as wonderful to to know that in history as well as in the modern era we do have well as in the modern era we do have well as in the modern era we do have these strong um women you know leaders

these strong um women you know leaders these strong um women you know leaders to to reach back to um but I will if I to to reach back to um but I will if I to to reach back to um but I will if I may and I don't know if you want to ask may and I don't know if you want to ask may and I don't know if you want to ask me about this is perhaps to to say that me about this is perhaps to to say that me about this is perhaps to to say that you know I focused in my book very much you know I focused in my book very much you know I focused in my book very much on characters because I think history is on characters because I think history is on characters because I think history is best understood if it's seared into the best understood if it's seared into the best understood if it's seared into the imagination and that is best done by imagination and that is best done by imagination and that is best done by relating these Great Moments in Africa's relating these Great Moments in Africa's relating these Great Moments in Africa's history through the history through the history through the personalities it does mean that personalities it does mean that personalities it does mean that sometimes the actions of or people can sometimes the actions of or people can sometimes the actions of or people can be overlooked and I do try to include be overlooked and I do try to include be overlooked and I do try to include those where I can to tell how society's those where I can to tell how society's those where I can to tell how society's formed and how you know um ordinary formed and how you know um ordinary formed and how you know um ordinary people lived by you know how they people lived by you know how they people lived by you know how they planted their crops what they ate and so planted their crops what they ate and so planted their crops what they ate and so on but it's just when you rely on oral on but it's just when you rely on oral on but it's just when you rely on oral tradition it is inevitably the deeds and tradition it is inevitably the deeds and tradition it is inevitably the deeds and the actions of the great leaders which the actions of the great leaders which the actions of the great leaders which become become become extoled um but I I I wanted to you know extoled um but I I I wanted to you know extoled um but I I I wanted to you know bust myths about Africa with this book bust myths about Africa with this book bust myths about Africa with this book which is why every chapter is pre with which is why every chapter is pre with which is why every chapter is pre with something to do with the modern era so something to do with the modern era so something to do with the modern era so if I talk about the transatlantic slave if I talk about the transatlantic slave if I talk about the transatlantic slave trade I'll talk about the issue of trade I'll talk about the issue of trade I'll talk about the issue of reparations if I talk about the benine reparations if I talk about the benine reparations if I talk about the benine kingdom in southern Nigeria I'll talk kingdom in southern Nigeria I'll talk kingdom in southern Nigeria I'll talk about the you know restitution whether about the you know restitution whether about the you know restitution whether um African artifacts should be returned um African artifacts should be returned um African artifacts should be returned or not to try and engage the reader to or not to try and engage the reader to or not to try and engage the reader to say look this is why this matters you say look this is why this matters you say look this is why this matters you know and to say look you know this idea know and to say look you know this idea know and to say look you know this idea that there are those who make history that there are those who make history that there are those who make history and those who stand on the sidelines of and those who stand on the sidelines of and those who stand on the sidelines of history with the Africans very much

history with the Africans very much history with the Africans very much being relegated to the sidelines is not being relegated to the sidelines is not being relegated to the sidelines is not supported by the evidence you have to supported by the evidence you have to supported by the evidence you have to break down Prejudice not with fairy break down Prejudice not with fairy break down Prejudice not with fairy tales but with facts and you know if you tales but with facts and you know if you tales but with facts and you know if you could indulge me by I just give you one could indulge me by I just give you one could indulge me by I just give you one example of that if you look at King example of that if you look at King example of that if you look at King Mansa Musa the first Mansa is the title Mansa Musa the first Mansa is the title Mansa Musa the first Mansa is the title of the king and Musa was his name Musa of the king and Musa was his name Musa of the king and Musa was his name Musa the first of the empire of Marley in the first of the empire of Marley in the first of the empire of Marley in West Africa broad part of you know the West Africa broad part of you know the West Africa broad part of you know the Sahel which covers West Africa today Sahel which covers West Africa today Sahel which covers West Africa today there was this massive Empire um manam there was this massive Empire um manam there was this massive Empire um manam Musa was born in 1280 died in 1332 so he Musa was born in 1280 died in 1332 so he Musa was born in 1280 died in 1332 so he lived a very long time ago and um you lived a very long time ago and um you lived a very long time ago and um you know he embarked on a pilgrimage in 1324 know he embarked on a pilgrimage in 1324 know he embarked on a pilgrimage in 1324 to Mecca and he went with a massive to Mecca and he went with a massive to Mecca and he went with a massive Entourage because the Marley Empire was Entourage because the Marley Empire was Entourage because the Marley Empire was such a wealthy Empire at you know at a such a wealthy Empire at you know at a such a wealthy Empire at you know at a time when Europe was beginning to enter time when Europe was beginning to enter time when Europe was beginning to enter a few decades later after his death the a few decades later after his death the a few decades later after his death the Black Death when it's you know the Black Death when it's you know the Black Death when it's you know the plague which plague which plague which decimated populations in Europe here was decimated populations in Europe here was decimated populations in Europe here was this Empire flourishing you know with this Empire flourishing you know with this Empire flourishing you know with gold you know he he had gold literally gold you know he he had gold literally gold you know he he had gold literally coming out of his ears and he embarked coming out of his ears and he embarked coming out of his ears and he embarked on this pilgrimage to Mecca with um on this pilgrimage to Mecca with um on this pilgrimage to Mecca with um 60,000 personal uh 60,000 personal 60,000 personal uh 60,000 personal 60,000 personal uh 60,000 personal servants 12,000 members of his um servants 12,000 members of his um servants 12,000 members of his um household 600 personal attendance a 100 household 600 personal attendance a 100 household 600 personal attendance a 100 camels bearing between 10 to 15 Tons of camels bearing between 10 to 15 Tons of camels bearing between 10 to 15 Tons of gold he stopped in Cairo on the way to gold he stopped in Cairo on the way to gold he stopped in Cairo on the way to Mecca and on the way back and he spent

Mecca and on the way back and he spent Mecca and on the way back and he spent so much gold and gave away so much gold so much gold and gave away so much gold so much gold and gave away so much gold that the global price of gold plunged by that the global price of gold plunged by that the global price of gold plunged by 25% and did not recover for more than a 25% and did not recover for more than a 25% and did not recover for more than a decade and by some accounts he is the decade and by some accounts he is the decade and by some accounts he is the richest individual to have ever lived in richest individual to have ever lived in richest individual to have ever lived in the world worth about the world worth about the world worth about 435 billion US doar what the story of 435 billion US doar what the story of 435 billion US doar what the story of manam Musa tells you that the actions of manam Musa tells you that the actions of manam Musa tells you that the actions of this medieval African king were such this medieval African king were such this medieval African king were such that they had an impact on the that they had an impact on the that they had an impact on the international economy on the price of international economy on the price of international economy on the price of gold which was of course was the main gold which was of course was the main gold which was of course was the main trading currency as it were then so the trading currency as it were then so the trading currency as it were then so the idea that Africa was somehow dislocated idea that Africa was somehow dislocated idea that Africa was somehow dislocated from the rest of the world is not born from the rest of the world is not born from the rest of the world is not born out by just you know the the out by just you know the the out by just you know the the illustration of this one story and a illustration of this one story and a illustration of this one story and a Catalan cartographer in Catalan cartographer in Catalan cartographer in 1375 several decades after the death of 1375 several decades after the death of 1375 several decades after the death of manam Musa when he drew four panels of manam Musa when he drew four panels of manam Musa when he drew four panels of the world manam Musa was there the third the world manam Musa was there the third the world manam Musa was there the third panel such was his significance you know panel such was his significance you know panel such was his significance you know wearing a Golden Crown clad in silk wearing a Golden Crown clad in silk wearing a Golden Crown clad in silk holding a golden staff and a golden orb holding a golden staff and a golden orb holding a golden staff and a golden orb in the other hand and that just shows in the other hand and that just shows in the other hand and that just shows you that African history is not you that African history is not you that African history is not something that is just of interest to something that is just of interest to something that is just of interest to the you know The Connoisseur or somebody the you know The Connoisseur or somebody the you know The Connoisseur or somebody might be interested in Africa it is part might be interested in Africa it is part might be interested in Africa it is part of our Global story and it is something of our Global story and it is something of our Global story and it is something which anybody who wants to say that which anybody who wants to say that which anybody who wants to say that they're educated should know about they're educated should know about they're educated should know about and it it's not history that starts with and it it's not history that starts with and it it's not history that starts with the transatlantic slave trade there is

the transatlantic slave trade there is the transatlantic slave trade there is an extraordinary history that far an extraordinary history that far an extraordinary history that far predates them they were always there predates them they were always there predates them they were always there right uh you you took a lot of time to right uh you you took a lot of time to right uh you you took a lot of time to talk with us today I appreciate it talk with us today I appreciate it talk with us today I appreciate it congratulations on the book and we will congratulations on the book and we will congratulations on the book and we will do a lead in where we don't just do a lead in where we don't just do a lead in where we don't just introduce you but we'll go into a little introduce you but we'll go into a little introduce you but we'll go into a little because I started right in the middle of because I started right in the middle of because I started right in the middle of this story sort of so we'll do a little this story sort of so we'll do a little this story sort of so we'll do a little overview where I kind of sort of give a overview where I kind of sort of give a overview where I kind of sort of give a framework for what we're talking about framework for what we're talking about framework for what we're talking about here the only thing I want to ask you here the only thing I want to ask you here the only thing I want to ask you before I let you go although I think before I let you go although I think before I let you go although I think you're last question sort of answers you're last question sort of answers you're last question sort of answers this is there anything that we left out this is there anything that we left out this is there anything that we left out that you would want to make sure that we that you would want to make sure that we that you would want to make sure that we got in got in got in here so I would say that this book is here so I would say that this book is here so I would say that this book is for everyone as I say and I wanted to for everyone as I say and I wanted to for everyone as I say and I wanted to narrate Africa's history it's Revelator narrate Africa's history it's Revelator narrate Africa's history it's Revelator because I'm staggered by the level of because I'm staggered by the level of because I'm staggered by the level of ignorance about Africa's history ignorance about Africa's history ignorance about Africa's history particularly its pre-colonial history particularly its pre-colonial history particularly its pre-colonial history even on the continent itself but this is even on the continent itself but this is even on the continent itself but this is a kind of global phenomenon I want to a kind of global phenomenon I want to a kind of global phenomenon I want to combat that um that Ignorance by simply combat that um that Ignorance by simply combat that um that Ignorance by simply narrating the history but more than that narrating the history but more than that narrating the history but more than that I also want to give a history of Hope I also want to give a history of Hope I also want to give a history of Hope because I want it to be a celebration of because I want it to be a celebration of because I want it to be a celebration of African history there's enough about the African history there's enough about the African history there's enough about the cannibalism the human sacrifices go cannibalism the human sacrifices go cannibalism the human sacrifices go somewhere else if you want to read about somewhere else if you want to read about somewhere else if you want to read about that for one book like mine there are that for one book like mine there are that for one book like mine there are hundreds out there that you can read hundreds out there that you can read hundreds out there that you can read about that kind of stuff I want to about that kind of stuff I want to about that kind of stuff I want to address the balance so to the address the balance so to the address the balance so to the non-african reader I want to say yes non-african reader I want to say yes non-african reader I want to say yes Africa is where it all started where you Africa is where it all started where you Africa is where it all started where you started hey aren't you interested in how started hey aren't you interested in how started hey aren't you interested in how the continent of your birth developed the continent of your birth developed the continent of your birth developed but to those people of African descent

but to those people of African descent but to those people of African descent who have a closer connection to the who have a closer connection to the who have a closer connection to the continent who may live in Africa or of continent who may live in Africa or of continent who may live in Africa or of African descent like the African descent like the African descent like the African-Americans I want to say to them African-Americans I want to say to them African-Americans I want to say to them you have a history that is history you have a history that is history you have a history that is history institutions a culture and tradition and institutions a culture and tradition and institutions a culture and tradition and beliefs that are worthy of study that beliefs that are worthy of study that beliefs that are worthy of study that are worthy of respect and as the are worthy of respect and as the are worthy of respect and as the wonderful um wangari maai the Kenyan um wonderful um wangari maai the Kenyan um wonderful um wangari maai the Kenyan um environmental activist who won the Nobel environmental activist who won the Nobel environmental activist who won the Nobel Peace Prize said you cannot enslave a Peace Prize said you cannot enslave a Peace Prize said you cannot enslave a mind that knows itself that understands mind that knows itself that understands mind that knows itself that understands itself that values itself and I think itself that values itself and I think itself that values itself and I think that the telling of History by Africans that the telling of History by Africans that the telling of History by Africans themselves and I hope in my book in a themselves and I hope in my book in a themselves and I hope in my book in a relatively accessible way go some way to relatively accessible way go some way to relatively accessible way go some way to saying to people of African saying to people of African saying to people of African descent you have got descent you have got descent you have got something which you know through which something which you know through which something which you know through which you can hold your head up high and let you can hold your head up high and let you can hold your head up high and let nobody tell you that you have a history nobody tell you that you have a history nobody tell you that you have a history that just begins and ends with you know that just begins and ends with you know that just begins and ends with you know enslavement and racism and so on there's enslavement and racism and so on there's enslavement and racism and so on there's so much more to your heritage and I wish so much more to your heritage and I wish so much more to your heritage and I wish you to embrace it and if this book in you to embrace it and if this book in you to embrace it and if this book in any small way can contribute to that any small way can contribute to that any small way can contribute to that mission then I'll be a very happy writer mission then I'll be a very happy writer mission then I'll be a very happy writer and a very happy person and more being and a very happy person and more being and a very happy person and more being discovered and uncovered all the time discovered and uncovered all the time discovered and uncovered all the time thank you so much for taking the time thank you so much for taking the time thank you so much for taking the time it's a wonderful book and we'll make it's a wonderful book and we'll make it's a wonderful book and we'll make sure at least our audience knows about sure at least our audience knows about sure at least our audience knows about it thank you so much indeed Dan I really it thank you so much indeed Dan I really it thank you so much indeed Dan I really enjoyed talking to you and thank you for

enjoyed talking to you and thank you for enjoyed talking to you and thank you for your very thoughtful questions and thank your very thoughtful questions and thank your very thoughtful questions and thank you for so clearly having read the book you for so clearly having read the book you for so clearly having read the book and digested and digested and digested it my thanks to zanab badawi for coming it my thanks to zanab badawi for coming it my thanks to zanab badawi for coming on the program today indulging me on the program today indulging me on the program today indulging me focusing on the pet issue I was focusing on the pet issue I was focusing on the pet issue I was interested in here uh you'll want to get interested in here uh you'll want to get interested in here uh you'll want to get the rest of the book though there's a the rest of the book though there's a the rest of the book though there's a ton of great stories there and her ton of great stories there and her ton of great stories there and her approach is well a little hardcore approach is well a little hardcore approach is well a little hardcore history history is uh in the way she history history is uh in the way she history history is uh in the way she goes about things good stories about goes about things good stories about goes about things good stories about interesting figures uh and a sort of a interesting figures uh and a sort of a interesting figures uh and a sort of a zoom lens that gives you a sense of the zoom lens that gives you a sense of the zoom lens that gives you a sense of the length breadth and depth of the history length breadth and depth of the history length breadth and depth of the history of the African continent it's an African of the African continent it's an African of the African continent it's an African history of Africa from the dawn of history of Africa from the dawn of history of Africa from the dawn of humanity to Independence already humanity to Independence already humanity to Independence already available in the UK the American Edition available in the UK the American Edition available in the UK the American Edition I believe it is comes out in mid January I believe it is comes out in mid January I believe it is comes out in mid January 2025 now I don't want to make a big now I don't want to make a big production about the whole thing but I production about the whole thing but I production about the whole thing but I do want to do want to do want to mention that in June of this year uh mention that in June of this year uh mention that in June of this year uh 2025 this will be 20 years uh since we 2025 this will be 20 years uh since we 2025 this will be 20 years uh since we started started started podcasting which is um still impossible podcasting which is um still impossible podcasting which is um still impossible for me to get my mind around it's for me to get my mind around it's for me to get my mind around it's strange to me that this is what I've strange to me that this is what I've strange to me that this is what I've done now for the longest time in terms done now for the longest time in terms done now for the longest time in terms of a career in my life it's of a career in my life it's of a career in my life it's nothing I could have trained for or nothing I could have trained for or nothing I could have trained for or known about and um you know we're known about and um you know we're known about and um you know we're obviously in our normal traditional obviously in our normal traditional obviously in our normal traditional fashion not taking the kind of Advantage

fashion not taking the kind of Advantage fashion not taking the kind of Advantage One in a business should probably take One in a business should probably take One in a business should probably take advantage of an anniversary like that advantage of an anniversary like that advantage of an anniversary like that for promotion and all these kinds of for promotion and all these kinds of for promotion and all these kinds of things but the one thing that occurs to things but the one thing that occurs to things but the one thing that occurs to me as I think about it is um you I mean me as I think about it is um you I mean me as I think about it is um you I mean there's no ad in this show is there I there's no ad in this show is there I there's no ad in this show is there I don't think we have an ad running we don't think we have an ad running we don't think we have an ad running we didn't have an ad in the last hardc we didn't have an ad in the last hardc we didn't have an ad in the last hardc we really don't we make our living from you really don't we make our living from you really don't we make our living from you and uh we have a deal I I I do these and uh we have a deal I I I do these and uh we have a deal I I I do these things and and you support us for this things and and you support us for this things and and you support us for this um it's just me in terms of the content um it's just me in terms of the content um it's just me in terms of the content so it takes some so it takes some so it takes some time there may or may not be a mythical time there may or may not be a mythical time there may or may not be a mythical producer involved but you know this is producer involved but you know this is producer involved but you know this is it and this operation is funded by the it and this operation is funded by the it and this operation is funded by the listenership and to be able to do this listenership and to be able to do this listenership and to be able to do this for 20 years um with you folks buying for 20 years um with you folks buying for 20 years um with you folks buying the old shows and contributing in the the old shows and contributing in the the old shows and contributing in the several ways that are out there for you several ways that are out there for you several ways that are out there for you to support us uh it's to support us uh it's to support us uh it's it's it's nothing that anyone ever it's it's nothing that anyone ever it's it's nothing that anyone ever thought would work that's a good way to thought would work that's a good way to thought would work that's a good way to phrase it we talked to a lot of experts phrase it we talked to a lot of experts phrase it we talked to a lot of experts about the business model over the years about the business model over the years about the business model over the years and nobody sees this working just want and nobody sees this working just want and nobody sees this working just want to say that because the people that to say that because the people that to say that because the people that defied all the odds and all the experts defied all the odds and all the experts defied all the odds and all the experts are you and to be doing this for 20 are you and to be doing this for 20 are you and to be doing this for 20 years um I never forget why I'm able to years um I never forget why I'm able to years um I never forget why I'm able to do this and so the main thing that comes do this and so the main thing that comes do this and so the main thing that comes into my head when I just meditate into my head when I just meditate into my head when I just meditate on my life and where it is here because

on my life and where it is here because on my life and where it is here because of this thing that everyone used to roll of this thing that everyone used to roll of this thing that everyone used to roll their eyes at me when I said what I did their eyes at me when I said what I did their eyes at me when I said what I did for a living back in 2005 and we started for a living back in 2005 and we started for a living back in 2005 and we started the same month and it wasn't a the same month and it wasn't a the same month and it wasn't a coincidence that Apple started coincidence that Apple started coincidence that Apple started supporting podcasts on iTunes June slash supporting podcasts on iTunes June slash supporting podcasts on iTunes June slash early July early July early July 2005 um 2005 um 2005 um when I think about all the shows that when I think about all the shows that when I think about all the shows that were around back then that are gone and were around back then that are gone and were around back then that are gone and you think about all of the shows now and you think about all of the shows now and you think about all of the shows now and how much the the big corporations and I how much the the big corporations and I how much the the big corporations and I got nothing against big corporations but got nothing against big corporations but got nothing against big corporations but how much of a of a giant professional uh how much of a of a giant professional uh how much of a of a giant professional uh Endeavor this all is now compared to how Endeavor this all is now compared to how Endeavor this all is now compared to how it used to be and here you know we still it used to be and here you know we still it used to be and here you know we still have this little operation it's still have this little operation it's still have this little operation it's still running the way it used to run for all running the way it used to run for all running the way it used to run for all of the downside that that also entails of the downside that that also entails of the downside that that also entails um but I mean we're still here and um but I mean we're still here and um but I mean we're still here and there's only one reason for that and there's only one reason for that and there's only one reason for that and that's you and that's all I can think that's you and that's all I can think that's you and that's all I can think about with this uh Milestone that's about with this uh Milestone that's about with this uh Milestone that's approaching and so I just wanted to say approaching and so I just wanted to say approaching and so I just wanted to say to all of you uh thank you