EP34 Atomic Accountability

Today's show is an example of one I'd Today's show is an example of one I'd really like to be doing more often. really like to be doing more often. really like to be doing more often. Interviewing authors on interesting Interviewing authors on interesting Interviewing authors on interesting historical related books that they've historical related books that they've historical related books that they've written. written. written. But I read the books and it's so hard But I read the books and it's so hard But I read the books and it's so hard when you're already reading so much for when you're already reading so much for when you're already reading so much for the main show all the time the main show all the time the main show all the time to squeeze in more than one book at a to squeeze in more than one book at a to squeeze in more than one book at a time maybe for example on some other time maybe for example on some other time maybe for example on some other subject for a Hardcore History Addendum subject for a Hardcore History Addendum subject for a Hardcore History Addendum show. So I'm sort of constrained by that show. So I'm sort of constrained by that show. So I'm sort of constrained by that and and and I want to explain, not apologize, but I want to explain, not apologize, but I want to explain, not apologize, but explain why once again we kind of have a explain why once again we kind of have a explain why once again we kind of have a subject that we've dealt with multiple subject that we've dealt with multiple subject that we've dealt with multiple times before. times before. times before. Uh nuclear weapons. Uh nuclear weapons. Uh nuclear weapons. And also because of the only times And also because of the only times And also because of the only times nuclear weapons have ever been used nuclear weapons have ever been used nuclear weapons have ever been used against people was at the end of the against people was at the end of the against people was at the end of the Second World War in Japan, obviously. Second World War in Japan, obviously. Second World War in Japan, obviously. Uh that dovetails into that story and Uh that dovetails into that story and Uh that dovetails into that story and we've talked about that recently. So we've talked about that recently. So we've talked about that recently. So at the risk of sounding like we be have at the risk of sounding like we be have at the risk of sounding like we be have become the nuclear war and Second World become the nuclear war and Second World become the nuclear war and Second World War in the Pacific channel. Um War in the Pacific channel. Um War in the Pacific channel. Um we will include other things, I promise. we will include other things, I promise. we will include other things, I promise. But I make no apologies about But I make no apologies about But I make no apologies about how much emphasis we place on how much emphasis we place on how much emphasis we place on these stories connected to nuclear these stories connected to nuclear these stories connected to nuclear weapons because we don't think enough weapons because we don't think enough weapons because we don't think enough about that. I mean, I don't even think about that. I mean, I don't even think about that. I mean, I don't even think that's arguable.

that's arguable. that's arguable. Anybody who spends any time at all Anybody who spends any time at all Anybody who spends any time at all looking into this realizes, oh my gosh, looking into this realizes, oh my gosh, looking into this realizes, oh my gosh, you know, we should be talking about you know, we should be talking about you know, we should be talking about this much much much much much more than this much much much much much more than this much much much much much more than we do. we do. we do. So I make no um So I make no um So I make no um apologies for that. apologies for that. apologies for that. The author um that we're having on today The author um that we're having on today The author um that we're having on today though wrote the sort of book that I put though wrote the sort of book that I put though wrote the sort of book that I put everything down for everything down for everything down for and grabbed right away because it has and grabbed right away because it has and grabbed right away because it has the potential to completely change um the potential to completely change um the potential to completely change um the way you thought about everything the way you thought about everything the way you thought about everything about something you thought a lot about. about something you thought a lot about. about something you thought a lot about. I've thought a lot about the end of the I've thought a lot about the end of the I've thought a lot about the end of the Second World War. I thought a lot about Second World War. I thought a lot about Second World War. I thought a lot about the use of nuclear weapons as I know the use of nuclear weapons as I know the use of nuclear weapons as I know many of you have too. many of you have too. many of you have too. So when somebody writes something that So when somebody writes something that So when somebody writes something that makes you uh makes you uh makes you uh think about it in a new way, that's rare think about it in a new way, that's rare think about it in a new way, that's rare about something you know, that some of about something you know, that some of about something you know, that some of us have been into for 50 plus years. us have been into for 50 plus years. us have been into for 50 plus years. Uh Adam Tooze's uh The Wages of Uh Adam Tooze's uh The Wages of Uh Adam Tooze's uh The Wages of Destruction did that, I remember. I Destruction did that, I remember. I Destruction did that, I remember. I mean, I spent the next 3 years, I think, mean, I spent the next 3 years, I think, mean, I spent the next 3 years, I think, in a daze continually thinking about how in a daze continually thinking about how in a daze continually thinking about how now this new overlay of my perspective now this new overlay of my perspective now this new overlay of my perspective changes all these other things in the changes all these other things in the changes all these other things in the past that I'd thought about this past that I'd thought about this past that I'd thought about this subject. This book kind of does that, subject. This book kind of does that, subject. This book kind of does that, too.

too. too. So when, by the way, a book like that is So when, by the way, a book like that is So when, by the way, a book like that is written written written you're going to have to you're going to have to you're going to have to you know, be a pretty trustworthy person you know, be a pretty trustworthy person you know, be a pretty trustworthy person to write it uh to write it uh to write it uh in your field and you're going to have in your field and you're going to have in your field and you're going to have to cite a lot of things and have a lot to cite a lot of things and have a lot to cite a lot of things and have a lot of notes and be prepared for a lot of of notes and be prepared for a lot of of notes and be prepared for a lot of people to say, now wait a minute, but people to say, now wait a minute, but people to say, now wait a minute, but what about this? what about this? what about this? And this guy is. And this guy is. And this guy is. His name is Alex His name is Alex His name is Alex Wellerstein and he's a Wellerstein and he's a Wellerstein and he's a professor in the Science and Technology professor in the Science and Technology professor in the Science and Technology Studies program Studies program Studies program at the Stevens Institute of Technology. at the Stevens Institute of Technology. at the Stevens Institute of Technology. Uh he's a guy who works mainly in the Uh he's a guy who works mainly in the Uh he's a guy who works mainly in the history of nuclear weapons. So this is history of nuclear weapons. So this is history of nuclear weapons. So this is sort of his bag. sort of his bag. sort of his bag. And he has a very interesting And he has a very interesting And he has a very interesting a story of how he came to this a story of how he came to this a story of how he came to this knowledge uh and that's that he was sort knowledge uh and that's that he was sort knowledge uh and that's that he was sort of looking for of looking for of looking for some real, you know, hardcore some real, you know, hardcore some real, you know, hardcore information. You know, he wanted to find information. You know, he wanted to find information. You know, he wanted to find out about orders for using the atomic out about orders for using the atomic out about orders for using the atomic bombs in the Second World War. bombs in the Second World War. bombs in the Second World War. And this led him down a rabbit hole to And this led him down a rabbit hole to And this led him down a rabbit hole to find out just how find out just how find out just how wrong our ideas about saying things wrong our ideas about saying things wrong our ideas about saying things like, well, Harry Truman ordered the like, well, Harry Truman ordered the like, well, Harry Truman ordered the nuclear bombs, the atomic bombs, they nuclear bombs, the atomic bombs, they nuclear bombs, the atomic bombs, they would have called them back then, to be would have called them back then, to be would have called them back then, to be used in this city at this date and all used in this city at this date and all used in this city at this date and all this sort of stuff. Now, anyone who's this sort of stuff. Now, anyone who's this sort of stuff. Now, anyone who's really gotten into the weeds on this really gotten into the weeds on this really gotten into the weeds on this already knows how things were sort of already knows how things were sort of already knows how things were sort of scheduled out and they were planning for scheduled out and they were planning for scheduled out and they were planning for almost an assembly line use of these almost an assembly line use of these almost an assembly line use of these atomic weapons, you know, as they came atomic weapons, you know, as they came atomic weapons, you know, as they came off the assembly line where we were off the assembly line where we were off the assembly line where we were going to fly the parts here, assemble going to fly the parts here, assemble going to fly the parts here, assemble them here, and then drop them this many them here, and then drop them this many them here, and then drop them this many days after they were assembled. I mean,

days after they were assembled. I mean, days after they were assembled. I mean, they had those in the works. You kind of they had those in the works. You kind of they had those in the works. You kind of have to. That's how have to. That's how have to. That's how industrialized total war works, folks. industrialized total war works, folks. industrialized total war works, folks. It's it's a factory operation It's it's a factory operation It's it's a factory operation even with atomic weaponry. even with atomic weaponry. even with atomic weaponry. But partially because of the way control But partially because of the way control But partially because of the way control of nuclear weapons has evolved over of nuclear weapons has evolved over of nuclear weapons has evolved over time, we sort of think about the way time, we sort of think about the way time, we sort of think about the way they would operate today in terms of the they would operate today in terms of the they would operate today in terms of the president issuing orders and all that president issuing orders and all that president issuing orders and all that sort of stuff. We think about that as sort of stuff. We think about that as sort of stuff. We think about that as being in force from the very first being in force from the very first being in force from the very first second they were discovered and of second they were discovered and of second they were discovered and of course that's not the case. And it was course that's not the case. And it was course that's not the case. And it was made much more complex by the fact that made much more complex by the fact that made much more complex by the fact that the guy who ordered the program started the guy who ordered the program started the guy who ordered the program started and who would have had some idea in and who would have had some idea in and who would have had some idea in maybe had some time to think about how maybe had some time to think about how maybe had some time to think about how he might organize and deal with he might organize and deal with he might organize and deal with something like this. He dies in '44 at something like this. He dies in '44 at something like this. He dies in '44 at the last minute, the president. the last minute, the president. the last minute, the president. Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Leaving in not just a vice president, Leaving in not just a vice president, Leaving in not just a vice president, but a guy who'd only recently become the but a guy who'd only recently become the but a guy who'd only recently become the vice president, you know. vice president, you know. vice president, you know. FDR dropped people here and there when FDR dropped people here and there when FDR dropped people here and there when they didn't serve his needs or they didn't serve his needs or they didn't serve his needs or you know, he he'd be better off without you know, he he'd be better off without you know, he he'd be better off without them or whatever you want to say. And so them or whatever you want to say. And so them or whatever you want to say. And so Harry Truman's the new guy on the block.

Harry Truman's the new guy on the block. Harry Truman's the new guy on the block. He doesn't even have any contact with He doesn't even have any contact with He doesn't even have any contact with FD. FDR didn't even, you know, he keeps FD. FDR didn't even, you know, he keeps FD. FDR didn't even, you know, he keeps him at arm's length. him at arm's length. him at arm's length. By this time FDR had been president, of By this time FDR had been president, of By this time FDR had been president, of course, longer than any president in US course, longer than any president in US course, longer than any president in US history. Uh he sort of just owned the history. Uh he sort of just owned the history. Uh he sort of just owned the job and uh sharing even a little bit of job and uh sharing even a little bit of job and uh sharing even a little bit of it with Harry Truman didn't seem to be it with Harry Truman didn't seem to be it with Harry Truman didn't seem to be on the agenda or maybe he just figured on the agenda or maybe he just figured on the agenda or maybe he just figured he'd get to it down the road not knowing he'd get to it down the road not knowing he'd get to it down the road not knowing there wasn't a road. And then all of a sudden Harry Truman's And then all of a sudden Harry Truman's the president. the president. the president. And there's that great line by uh And there's that great line by uh And there's that great line by uh Franklin Delano Roosevelt's wife Franklin Delano Roosevelt's wife Franklin Delano Roosevelt's wife um um um Eleanor and after she tells Eleanor and after she tells Eleanor and after she tells Truman that the president has died Truman that the president has died Truman that the president has died and that you're the president now and he and that you're the president now and he and that you're the president now and he stammers out something to the effect of stammers out something to the effect of stammers out something to the effect of I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do for you? And she says something like, um for you? And she says something like, um for you? And she says something like, um is there anything we can do for you? is there anything we can do for you? is there anything we can do for you? Uh you're the guy in the hot seat now. Uh you're the guy in the hot seat now. Uh you're the guy in the hot seat now. And it's at this point that the fire And it's at this point that the fire And it's at this point that the fire hose of information begins to engulf hose of information begins to engulf hose of information begins to engulf Harry Truman because think about all the Harry Truman because think about all the Harry Truman because think about all the catching up he has to do. He wouldn't catching up he has to do. He wouldn't catching up he has to do. He wouldn't have had to do so much either if FDR had have had to do so much either if FDR had have had to do so much either if FDR had brought him in at all and sort of you brought him in at all and sort of you brought him in at all and sort of you know, said to him, listen, know, said to him, listen, know, said to him, listen, here's my heart rate. This is what my here's my heart rate. This is what my here's my heart rate. This is what my blood pressure's been. I'm not going to blood pressure's been. I'm not going to blood pressure's been. I'm not going to be around a lot longer.

be around a lot longer. be around a lot longer. Um so you need to know a few important Um so you need to know a few important Um so you need to know a few important things like we've been developing this things like we've been developing this things like we've been developing this atomic bomb, which he didn't tell him. atomic bomb, which he didn't tell him. atomic bomb, which he didn't tell him. And which, you know, there's this And which, you know, there's this And which, you know, there's this fateful meeting very early on in the fateful meeting very early on in the fateful meeting very early on in the presidency um where FDR's people have to presidency um where FDR's people have to presidency um where FDR's people have to sort of bring Truman in on the idea of sort of bring Truman in on the idea of sort of bring Truman in on the idea of this bomb and make a guy born in the this bomb and make a guy born in the this bomb and make a guy born in the 1800s 1800s 1800s you know, understand what we're talking you know, understand what we're talking you know, understand what we're talking about here. Now, in fairness about here. Now, in fairness about here. Now, in fairness in the First World War Truman was an in the First World War Truman was an in the First World War Truman was an artillery guy. So maybe there's artillery guy. So maybe there's artillery guy. So maybe there's some of that understanding of, okay, some of that understanding of, okay, some of that understanding of, okay, think about a bomb. Now think of a think about a bomb. Now think of a think about a bomb. Now think of a really really really really really big really really really really really big really really really really really big bomb. bomb. bomb. But if we're going to have some empathy But if we're going to have some empathy But if we're going to have some empathy for somebody in history cuz, you know, for somebody in history cuz, you know, for somebody in history cuz, you know, the person who drops atomic bombs is the person who drops atomic bombs is the person who drops atomic bombs is obviously a vilified person cuz think obviously a vilified person cuz think obviously a vilified person cuz think about it. I mean, there's the deaths of about it. I mean, there's the deaths of about it. I mean, there's the deaths of they still argue about how many people. they still argue about how many people. they still argue about how many people. If we said 200,000 If we said 200,000 If we said 200,000 you know, you know, you know, could both cities combined, that's could both cities combined, that's could both cities combined, that's probably not terrible of a number. probably not terrible of a number. probably not terrible of a number. The point is imagine being the person The point is imagine being the person The point is imagine being the person who ordered that. who ordered that. who ordered that. How do you sleep at night?

How do you sleep at night? How do you sleep at night? Well, that's why these two-dimensional Well, that's why these two-dimensional Well, that's why these two-dimensional views of human beings give us a views of human beings give us a views of human beings give us a cardboard cut-out version of them. And cardboard cut-out version of them. And cardboard cut-out version of them. And when you three-dimensionalize it, you when you three-dimensionalize it, you when you three-dimensionalize it, you realize realize realize there's more to this story and this is there's more to this story and this is there's more to this story and this is something that Professor Wellerstein uh something that Professor Wellerstein uh something that Professor Wellerstein uh brings to the fore here. And I used the brings to the fore here. And I used the brings to the fore here. And I used the word in the interview at one point. I word in the interview at one point. I word in the interview at one point. I said hoodwinked and he corrected me. said hoodwinked and he corrected me. said hoodwinked and he corrected me. Uh I I was saying that it was almost as Uh I I was saying that it was almost as Uh I I was saying that it was almost as though Harry Truman was hoodwinked into though Harry Truman was hoodwinked into though Harry Truman was hoodwinked into using these bombs in a way that he using these bombs in a way that he using these bombs in a way that he didn't want to use them, but it looks didn't want to use them, but it looks didn't want to use them, but it looks more like a misunderstanding or or more like a misunderstanding or or more like a misunderstanding or or something that just got lost in something that just got lost in something that just got lost in translation. translation. translation. The bottom line though is, spoiler The bottom line though is, spoiler The bottom line though is, spoiler alert, it doesn't sound like Harry alert, it doesn't sound like Harry alert, it doesn't sound like Harry Truman knew he was dropping bombs on Truman knew he was dropping bombs on Truman knew he was dropping bombs on cities with women and children. And it cities with women and children. And it cities with women and children. And it helps explain why there's always been helps explain why there's always been helps explain why there's always been this dichotomy between Truman saying, this dichotomy between Truman saying, this dichotomy between Truman saying, we're not going to use this on women and we're not going to use this on women and we're not going to use this on women and children, and then the bomb being children, and then the bomb being children, and then the bomb being dropped on women and children. dropped on women and children. dropped on women and children. So it's a fascinating story. So it's a fascinating story. So it's a fascinating story. We'll get into it in a second. But it's We'll get into it in a second. But it's We'll get into it in a second. But it's exactly the kind of work that makes exactly the kind of work that makes exactly the kind of work that makes you know, if you're if you're interested you know, if you're if you're interested you know, if you're if you're interested in something like the Second World War in something like the Second World War in something like the Second World War or the history of nuclear weapons or or the history of nuclear weapons or or the history of nuclear weapons or even the history of humankind trying to even the history of humankind trying to even the history of humankind trying to learn how to live with the power, the learn how to live with the power, the learn how to live with the power, the ever-increasing power of their weaponry ever-increasing power of their weaponry ever-increasing power of their weaponry um um um this stuff is fascinating and seeing how this stuff is fascinating and seeing how this stuff is fascinating and seeing how a guy like Harry Truman might have had a guy like Harry Truman might have had a guy like Harry Truman might have had to make the most awful decision any to make the most awful decision any to make the most awful decision any humans ever had to make humans ever had to make humans ever had to make find out he didn't make the decision he

find out he didn't make the decision he find out he didn't make the decision he thought he was making feel like thought he was making feel like thought he was making feel like he was going to take the responsibility he was going to take the responsibility he was going to take the responsibility for it and suck it up and then behind for it and suck it up and then behind for it and suck it up and then behind the scenes make sure nothing like that the scenes make sure nothing like that the scenes make sure nothing like that ever happened to another person ever happened to another person ever happened to another person you know, who occupied the same office you know, who occupied the same office you know, who occupied the same office he did ever again. he did ever again. he did ever again. It's a fascinating story. It's It's a fascinating story. It's It's a fascinating story. It's absolutely worth your read. absolutely worth your read. absolutely worth your read. The book is called The Most Awful The book is called The Most Awful The book is called The Most Awful Responsibility, Responsibility, Responsibility, Truman and the Secret Struggle for Truman and the Secret Struggle for Truman and the Secret Struggle for Control of the Atomic Age by Professor Control of the Atomic Age by Professor Control of the Atomic Age by Professor Alex Wellerstein. And he joins us Alex Wellerstein. And he joins us Alex Wellerstein. And he joins us right now. So we can just dive right into it. And I So we can just dive right into it. And I thought maybe the way to do it would be thought maybe the way to do it would be thought maybe the way to do it would be for me to quote the very first quote in for me to quote the very first quote in for me to quote the very first quote in your introduction uh from President your introduction uh from President your introduction uh from President Harry Truman because I think it sets the Harry Truman because I think it sets the Harry Truman because I think it sets the stage for the import of what we're stage for the import of what we're stage for the import of what we're talking about here. And you wrote talking about here. And you wrote talking about here. And you wrote quoting Truman uh and he said quote The quoting Truman uh and he said quote The quoting Truman uh and he said quote The atomic bomb is the most terrible bomb in atomic bomb is the most terrible bomb in atomic bomb is the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It seems to be the history of the world. It seems to be the history of the world. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered.

the most terrible thing ever discovered. the most terrible thing ever discovered. It is a terrible thing to order the use It is a terrible thing to order the use It is a terrible thing to order the use of something that is so terribly of something that is so terribly of something that is so terribly destructive, destructive beyond anything destructive, destructive beyond anything destructive, destructive beyond anything else that we have ever made, the most else that we have ever made, the most else that we have ever made, the most terrible of all destructive forces for terrible of all destructive forces for terrible of all destructive forces for the wholesale slaughter of human beings. the wholesale slaughter of human beings. the wholesale slaughter of human beings. You've got to understand that this isn't You've got to understand that this isn't You've got to understand that this isn't a military weapon. It is used to wipe a military weapon. It is used to wipe a military weapon. It is used to wipe out women and children and unarmed out women and children and unarmed out women and children and unarmed people. It affects the civilian people. It affects the civilian people. It affects the civilian population and murders them by the population and murders them by the population and murders them by the wholesale. wholesale. wholesale. That happens when it is used. It is a That happens when it is used. It is a That happens when it is used. It is a terrible weapon. Its use was the most terrible weapon. Its use was the most terrible weapon. Its use was the most terrible decision a man ever had to terrible decision a man ever had to terrible decision a man ever had to make. The most terrible decision that make. The most terrible decision that make. The most terrible decision that any man in the history of the world had any man in the history of the world had any man in the history of the world had to make. It was a terrible decision to to make. It was a terrible decision to to make. It was a terrible decision to make." End quote. And then the entire make." End quote. And then the entire make." End quote. And then the entire book sort of goes from there, but book sort of goes from there, but book sort of goes from there, but doesn't go in the direction that any doesn't go in the direction that any doesn't go in the direction that any book I've ever read on the subject went. book I've ever read on the subject went. book I've ever read on the subject went. You kind of discovered something that You kind of discovered something that You kind of discovered something that maybe we didn't know, and that's that maybe we didn't know, and that's that maybe we didn't know, and that's that Harry Truman may not have been as Harry Truman may not have been as Harry Truman may not have been as informed in what he was doing here as we informed in what he was doing here as we informed in what he was doing here as we had normally assumed. What can you start had normally assumed. What can you start had normally assumed. What can you start telling me about that? telling me about that? telling me about that? Well, I I I will just start by just Well, I I I will just start by just Well, I I I will just start by just highlighting for everyone that that the highlighting for everyone that that the highlighting for everyone that that the first quote is first quote is first quote is several quotes that I very quickly cop several quotes that I very quickly cop several quotes that I very quickly cop to taking completely out of context. So, to taking completely out of context. So, to taking completely out of context. So, you know, not usually how you start a you know, not usually how you start a you know, not usually how you start a book as a historian, but but I think book as a historian, but but I think book as a historian, but but I think that that uh language is really that that uh language is really that that uh language is really important to understanding what Truman important to understanding what Truman important to understanding what Truman is about. I mean, it's this emotional is about. I mean, it's this emotional is about. I mean, it's this emotional language. It's this repetitive language language. It's this repetitive language language. It's this repetitive language over the course of his career. Um and over the course of his career. Um and over the course of his career. Um and and as I say in the beginning, if you

and as I say in the beginning, if you and as I say in the beginning, if you heard that quote attributed to anybody heard that quote attributed to anybody heard that quote attributed to anybody else, you would 100% not think that they else, you would 100% not think that they else, you would 100% not think that they thought the atomic bomb was that good of thought the atomic bomb was that good of thought the atomic bomb was that good of a thing. So, to have that be attributed a thing. So, to have that be attributed a thing. So, to have that be attributed to Truman, I think is uh telling you to Truman, I think is uh telling you to Truman, I think is uh telling you something. Um something. Um something. Um Yeah, I I want to just cop to the fact Yeah, I I want to just cop to the fact Yeah, I I want to just cop to the fact that I never in a million years when I that I never in a million years when I that I never in a million years when I started working on the history of started working on the history of started working on the history of nuclear weapons thought that I would nuclear weapons thought that I would nuclear weapons thought that I would write a book on Harry Truman and write a book on Harry Truman and write a book on Harry Truman and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Uh it felt like ground that's really Uh it felt like ground that's really Uh it felt like ground that's really gone over uh for many, many times by gone over uh for many, many times by gone over uh for many, many times by many other people. And so, what are the many other people. And so, what are the many other people. And so, what are the odds that you're going to have some new odds that you're going to have some new odds that you're going to have some new take on it that's worth listening to. take on it that's worth listening to. take on it that's worth listening to. But uh But uh But uh yeah, over the years I came to believe yeah, over the years I came to believe yeah, over the years I came to believe as you say that that that there was as you say that that that there was as you say that that that there was something sort of missing in in uh not something sort of missing in in uh not something sort of missing in in uh not just a popular account, but also even just a popular account, but also even just a popular account, but also even the scholarly accounts. the scholarly accounts. the scholarly accounts. Well, you sort of answer some of the Well, you sort of answer some of the Well, you sort of answer some of the long-running questions about this long-running questions about this long-running questions about this dichotomy between Truman's willingness dichotomy between Truman's willingness dichotomy between Truman's willingness to not just uh cop to the fact that he to not just uh cop to the fact that he to not just uh cop to the fact that he made this decision, but to justify it made this decision, but to justify it made this decision, but to justify it also when in private uh the things that also when in private uh the things that also when in private uh the things that he was writing and saying were much more he was writing and saying were much more he was writing and saying were much more of the way some of the most uh of the way some of the most uh of the way some of the most uh anti-nuclear type folks on the planet anti-nuclear type folks on the planet anti-nuclear type folks on the planet would have hoped somebody with this would have hoped somebody with this would have hoped somebody with this power would have talked and written. Uh power would have talked and written. Uh power would have talked and written. Uh he he comes off as a very sort of he he comes off as a very sort of he he comes off as a very sort of different figure than the one I grew up different figure than the one I grew up different figure than the one I grew up reading about and and more both human reading about and and more both human reading about and and more both human and conflicted and like he said in that and conflicted and like he said in that and conflicted and like he said in that quote that you uh created from multiple

quote that you uh created from multiple quote that you uh created from multiple uh quotes that he said, he comes off as uh quotes that he said, he comes off as uh quotes that he said, he comes off as the most human of people tasked with the the most human of people tasked with the the most human of people tasked with the most inhuman sorts of decisions. So, most inhuman sorts of decisions. So, most inhuman sorts of decisions. So, this is the guy who had the the famous this is the guy who had the the famous this is the guy who had the the famous the buck stops here phrase on his desk. the buck stops here phrase on his desk. the buck stops here phrase on his desk. So, he's going to not put the decision So, he's going to not put the decision So, he's going to not put the decision off on anyone else. But explain to me off on anyone else. But explain to me off on anyone else. But explain to me maybe the difference between our normal maybe the difference between our normal maybe the difference between our normal conception of what Harry Truman was conception of what Harry Truman was conception of what Harry Truman was supposed to be doing with the atomic supposed to be doing with the atomic supposed to be doing with the atomic bomb and what according to your research bomb and what according to your research bomb and what according to your research might have actually been going on behind might have actually been going on behind might have actually been going on behind the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. So, there there are sort of two ways in So, there there are sort of two ways in So, there there are sort of two ways in which people usually hear about the which people usually hear about the which people usually hear about the atomic bomb atomic bomb atomic bomb decision and Truman's role. The first is decision and Truman's role. The first is decision and Truman's role. The first is what we might think of as the orthodox what we might think of as the orthodox what we might think of as the orthodox or official or official or official story, which is Harry Truman weighs the story, which is Harry Truman weighs the story, which is Harry Truman weighs the the ups and the downs of using an atomic the ups and the downs of using an atomic the ups and the downs of using an atomic bomb uh very carefully and, you know, bomb uh very carefully and, you know, bomb uh very carefully and, you know, uses it in order to prevent uh the the uses it in order to prevent uh the the uses it in order to prevent uh the the the casualties that would come from an the casualties that would come from an the casualties that would come from an invasion, right? It's invasion, right? It's invasion, right? It's and that this was this heavy-hearted and that this was this heavy-hearted and that this was this heavy-hearted thing, but he does it because it thing, but he does it because it thing, but he does it because it ultimately saved lives. So, that's ultimately saved lives. So, that's ultimately saved lives. So, that's that's the sort of that's the sort of that's the sort of version that in fact people involved version that in fact people involved version that in fact people involved with the decision, including Truman with the decision, including Truman with the decision, including Truman himself in his memoirs, put out there himself in his memoirs, put out there himself in his memoirs, put out there into the world.

into the world. into the world. The other version, which is uh The other version, which is uh The other version, which is uh sometimes called like a revisionist sometimes called like a revisionist sometimes called like a revisionist version, is one that basically says, version, is one that basically says, version, is one that basically says, "Actually, there were people in the "Actually, there were people in the "Actually, there were people in the Truman administration, including Truman, Truman administration, including Truman, Truman administration, including Truman, who did not think the atomic bomb was who did not think the atomic bomb was who did not think the atomic bomb was needed for ending World War II, and they needed for ending World War II, and they needed for ending World War II, and they used it instead to sort of scare the used it instead to sort of scare the used it instead to sort of scare the Soviets." Um and uh there's several Soviets." Um and uh there's several Soviets." Um and uh there's several books and films that sort of put that books and films that sort of put that books and films that sort of put that version out there. Um what my take is is version out there. Um what my take is is version out there. Um what my take is is is one is one is one like a lot of scholars, I've rejected like a lot of scholars, I've rejected like a lot of scholars, I've rejected both of those versions. I mean, both of both of those versions. I mean, both of both of those versions. I mean, both of those have their those have their those have their uh benefits. There's some evidence for uh benefits. There's some evidence for uh benefits. There's some evidence for some aspects of them, and they both uh some aspects of them, and they both uh some aspects of them, and they both uh fail in certain ways uh to fail in certain ways uh to fail in certain ways uh to live up to live up to live up to what we find in the historical record what we find in the historical record what we find in the historical record when we look really closely. Uh for one when we look really closely. Uh for one when we look really closely. Uh for one thing, they both over-rationalize thing, they both over-rationalize thing, they both over-rationalize the whole process. They make it seem the whole process. They make it seem the whole process. They make it seem like people actually were deliberating like people actually were deliberating like people actually were deliberating over whether they should use the bomb or over whether they should use the bomb or over whether they should use the bomb or not, which was essentially not not, which was essentially not not, which was essentially not deliberated. Um deliberated. Um deliberated. Um what I do in this book is I suggest what I do in this book is I suggest what I do in this book is I suggest I I I take this de-over-rationalizing, I I I take this de-over-rationalizing, I I I take this de-over-rationalizing, maybe push it even further, and I try to maybe push it even further, and I try to maybe push it even further, and I try to look at exactly what Truman himself knew look at exactly what Truman himself knew look at exactly what Truman himself knew at any point um about the atomic bombs, at any point um about the atomic bombs, at any point um about the atomic bombs, uh and also what he was actually uh and also what he was actually uh and also what he was actually involved with in decision-making. And involved with in decision-making. And involved with in decision-making. And the funny thing is the funny thing is the funny thing is historians have known for a while,

historians have known for a while, historians have known for a while, scholars, that Truman didn't decide to scholars, that Truman didn't decide to scholars, that Truman didn't decide to use the bomb, that there was no use the bomb, that there was no use the bomb, that there was no deliberation of that sort. He was not deliberation of that sort. He was not deliberation of that sort. He was not asked. He did not order. Uh this was asked. He did not order. Uh this was asked. He did not order. Uh this was done by other people, and he was uh uh done by other people, and he was uh uh done by other people, and he was uh uh sort of kept in the loop on this, but he sort of kept in the loop on this, but he sort of kept in the loop on this, but he basically didn't interfere on plans that basically didn't interfere on plans that basically didn't interfere on plans that were already going forward. Uh my were already going forward. Uh my were already going forward. Uh my argument is argument is argument is he actually thought that he knew more he actually thought that he knew more he actually thought that he knew more than he did about what was happening. Um than he did about what was happening. Um than he did about what was happening. Um if we look at what he knew and what he if we look at what he knew and what he if we look at what he knew and what he wrote and how he talked about it, it it wrote and how he talked about it, it it wrote and how he talked about it, it it looks an awful lot like Truman was not looks an awful lot like Truman was not looks an awful lot like Truman was not aware of some really key elements. In aware of some really key elements. In aware of some really key elements. In particular, the only discussion he particular, the only discussion he particular, the only discussion he actually took part in where he sort of actually took part in where he sort of actually took part in where he sort of weighed in on a policy proposal about weighed in on a policy proposal about weighed in on a policy proposal about the atomic bomb before it was used was the atomic bomb before it was used was the atomic bomb before it was used was on the question of where the bomb should on the question of where the bomb should on the question of where the bomb should be dropped. Uh specifically this be dropped. Uh specifically this be dropped. Uh specifically this question of whether Kyoto should be on question of whether Kyoto should be on question of whether Kyoto should be on the target list or not. the target list or not. the target list or not. And uh And uh And uh after he has this discussion and agrees after he has this discussion and agrees after he has this discussion and agrees with the Secretary of War that they with the Secretary of War that they with the Secretary of War that they should not bomb Kyoto, should not bomb Kyoto, should not bomb Kyoto, he essentially uh seems to believe that he essentially uh seems to believe that he essentially uh seems to believe that the decision that he made was not to the decision that he made was not to the decision that he made was not to bomb a city.

bomb a city. bomb a city. That he did not understand that That he did not understand that That he did not understand that Hiroshima was a city and not, as he put Hiroshima was a city and not, as he put Hiroshima was a city and not, as he put it, purely a military target or a it, purely a military target or a it, purely a military target or a military base. Um and so, that's sort of military base. Um and so, that's sort of military base. Um and so, that's sort of the crux of the book is is is this is the crux of the book is is is this is the crux of the book is is is this is the sort of original sin of Truman and the sort of original sin of Truman and the sort of original sin of Truman and the bomb is is one way you can think the bomb is is one way you can think the bomb is is one way you can think about it. Well, and we should say the about it. Well, and we should say the about it. Well, and we should say the reason the Kyoto thing was debated at reason the Kyoto thing was debated at reason the Kyoto thing was debated at all was this is a historic city, very all was this is a historic city, very all was this is a historic city, very important to Japanese heritage, all that important to Japanese heritage, all that important to Japanese heritage, all that sort of stuff, which shows that our sort of stuff, which shows that our sort of stuff, which shows that our people were actually considering that people were actually considering that people were actually considering that sort of stuff from time to time. But sort of stuff from time to time. But sort of stuff from time to time. But this is what's so unusual about your this is what's so unusual about your this is what's so unusual about your book and was so amazing for me to read book and was so amazing for me to read book and was so amazing for me to read and that it's so new. There've been a and that it's so new. There've been a and that it's so new. There've been a lot of good books on atomic history, as lot of good books on atomic history, as lot of good books on atomic history, as strange as that sounds, as you know, strange as that sounds, as you know, strange as that sounds, as you know, that have come out, popular histories in that have come out, popular histories in that have come out, popular histories in the last 10 or 15 years, who, you know, the last 10 or 15 years, who, you know, the last 10 or 15 years, who, you know, you would think, as you said, that we you would think, as you said, that we you would think, as you said, that we had sort of drilled this well dry. But had sort of drilled this well dry. But had sort of drilled this well dry. But your your your your comments that that Truman really your comments that that Truman really your comments that that Truman really thought he was doing something else. thought he was doing something else. thought he was doing something else. First of all, it answers so many First of all, it answers so many First of all, it answers so many questions about the dichotomy between questions about the dichotomy between questions about the dichotomy between what he was saying and what actually what he was saying and what actually what he was saying and what actually happened. If he himself believed what he happened. If he himself believed what he happened. If he himself believed what he was saying and was sort of hoodwinked, was saying and was sort of hoodwinked, was saying and was sort of hoodwinked, or he misunderstood, maybe maybe a way or he misunderstood, maybe maybe a way or he misunderstood, maybe maybe a way to look at this is the difference to look at this is the difference to look at this is the difference between what might have happened had we between what might have happened had we between what might have happened had we not been in wartime and there hadn't not been in wartime and there hadn't not been in wartime and there hadn't been a sort of an assembly-line been a sort of an assembly-line been a sort of an assembly-line uh approach to sort of new weapons are uh approach to sort of new weapons are uh approach to sort of new weapons are coming off the uh factory line and we coming off the uh factory line and we coming off the uh factory line and we should just throw them into the should just throw them into the should just throw them into the conflict. I mean, how much of that did conflict. I mean, how much of that did conflict. I mean, how much of that did Truman just sort of walk into when he Truman just sort of walk into when he Truman just sort of walk into when he inherited the job, a sort of an already inherited the job, a sort of an already inherited the job, a sort of an already operating machine?

operating machine? operating machine? He walked into quite a lot. I mean, he He walked into quite a lot. I mean, he He walked into quite a lot. I mean, he was, by his own account, completely out was, by his own account, completely out was, by his own account, completely out of his depth. Uh Roosevelt did not of his depth. Uh Roosevelt did not of his depth. Uh Roosevelt did not tell him much of anything. Um tell him much of anything. Um tell him much of anything. Um I think even more than than that, I think even more than than that, I think even more than than that, though, some of these issues though, some of these issues though, some of these issues were not really being were not really being were not really being coordinated in what we might think of as coordinated in what we might think of as coordinated in what we might think of as a normal bureaucratic way. I don't know a normal bureaucratic way. I don't know a normal bureaucratic way. I don't know what normal means today in government. what normal means today in government. what normal means today in government. But you would imagine that you know, for But you would imagine that you know, for But you would imagine that you know, for example, the firebombing of example, the firebombing of example, the firebombing of firebombing of Japan. firebombing of Japan. firebombing of Japan. I I I The framework with which we often The framework with which we often The framework with which we often approach that is to say, "Well, why did approach that is to say, "Well, why did approach that is to say, "Well, why did the US government want to do this? What the US government want to do this? What the US government want to do this? What was its rationalization? What did the was its rationalization? What did the was its rationalization? What did the presidents think?" etc. presidents think?" etc. presidents think?" etc. I I I The The The as far as I can tell, the presidents, no as far as I can tell, the presidents, no as far as I can tell, the presidents, no president, ever wrote or said anything president, ever wrote or said anything president, ever wrote or said anything about firebombing at all. And then the about firebombing at all. And then the about firebombing at all. And then the program was started uh by Curtis LeMay program was started uh by Curtis LeMay program was started uh by Curtis LeMay himself uh in Japan. Um uh without even himself uh in Japan. Um uh without even himself uh in Japan. Um uh without even asking his superior officers. It was asking his superior officers. It was asking his superior officers. It was much more decentralized. And then once much more decentralized. And then once much more decentralized. And then once it happened, it happened, it happened, it doesn't seem like there was a lot of it doesn't seem like there was a lot of it doesn't seem like there was a lot of clarity on clarity on clarity on whose uh whose uh whose uh uh uh uh authority does this need to be under authority does this need to be under authority does this need to be under anyway? Is this anyway? Is this anyway? Is this an operational question, like where I an operational question, like where I an operational question, like where I put my troops, or is this a political put my troops, or is this a political put my troops, or is this a political question, like a question, like a question, like a you know, a moral question? And I'm very

you know, a moral question? And I'm very you know, a moral question? And I'm very interested in in that kind of thing, not interested in in that kind of thing, not interested in in that kind of thing, not just in the context of atomic bomb, but just in the context of atomic bomb, but just in the context of atomic bomb, but because it informs these discussions because it informs these discussions because it informs these discussions that will come up about the atomic bomb that will come up about the atomic bomb that will come up about the atomic bomb really heavily. The bomb gets turned really heavily. The bomb gets turned really heavily. The bomb gets turned into this thing that is different from into this thing that is different from into this thing that is different from other weapons. And that is not other weapons. And that is not other weapons. And that is not necessarily obvious. Uh and it's necessarily obvious. Uh and it's necessarily obvious. Uh and it's a sort of historical process. And Truman a sort of historical process. And Truman a sort of historical process. And Truman plays a big role in this. Even the Kyoto plays a big role in this. Even the Kyoto plays a big role in this. Even the Kyoto discussion is part of that. The military discussion is part of that. The military discussion is part of that. The military basically doesn't want to recognize the basically doesn't want to recognize the basically doesn't want to recognize the Secretary of War as being somebody who Secretary of War as being somebody who Secretary of War as being somebody who can override an operational choice like can override an operational choice like can override an operational choice like where you drop the bomb, because that's where you drop the bomb, because that's where you drop the bomb, because that's going to depend on the weather and and going to depend on the weather and and going to depend on the weather and and your your analysts and other things that your your analysts and other things that your your analysts and other things that are not what the Secretary of War at are not what the Secretary of War at are not what the Secretary of War at that time does. The Secretary of War that time does. The Secretary of War that time does. The Secretary of War passes legislation, right? It's a passes legislation, right? It's a passes legislation, right? It's a different job at that time. And so different job at that time. And so different job at that time. And so Stimson, the Secretary of War, trying to Stimson, the Secretary of War, trying to Stimson, the Secretary of War, trying to carve out, well, actually, this is not carve out, well, actually, this is not carve out, well, actually, this is not that kind of question. And even going to that kind of question. And even going to that kind of question. And even going to Truman to get backing on this, cuz it's Truman to get backing on this, cuz it's Truman to get backing on this, cuz it's not clear the military will listen to not clear the military will listen to not clear the military will listen to him. This is a sort of him. This is a sort of him. This is a sort of part of this debate about whether the part of this debate about whether the part of this debate about whether the atomic bomb is something that is just a atomic bomb is something that is just a atomic bomb is something that is just a regular another weapon off the assembly regular another weapon off the assembly regular another weapon off the assembly line or not. So, I don't think, for line or not. So, I don't think, for line or not. So, I don't think, for example, that Truman necessarily thinks example, that Truman necessarily thinks example, that Truman necessarily thinks the atomic bomb is another weapon off the atomic bomb is another weapon off the atomic bomb is another weapon off the assembly line. But that's also why I the assembly line. But that's also why I the assembly line. But that's also why I think he would have been amenable to the think he would have been amenable to the think he would have been amenable to the suggestion that the first use of it not suggestion that the first use of it not suggestion that the first use of it not be on a city be on a city be on a city and should be, you know, done in some

and should be, you know, done in some and should be, you know, done in some way that uh which which which was not way that uh which which which was not way that uh which which which was not unique even to Truman to to to have that unique even to Truman to to to have that unique even to Truman to to to have that opinion, but done in some way that would opinion, but done in some way that would opinion, but done in some way that would make it look like they understood that make it look like they understood that make it look like they understood that this was this was this was a a a new sort of a a a new sort of a a a new sort of direction in human history. direction in human history. direction in human history. I got a really interesting sort of I got a really interesting sort of I got a really interesting sort of feeling from feeling from feeling from um your approach here on Truman that I um your approach here on Truman that I um your approach here on Truman that I hadn't gotten with him before. A sort of hadn't gotten with him before. A sort of hadn't gotten with him before. A sort of a a human being put in a kind of a a a human being put in a kind of a a a human being put in a kind of a tragic position where he was going to tragic position where he was going to tragic position where he was going to you know, with the all the whole the you know, with the all the whole the you know, with the all the whole the buck stops here idea, even though maybe buck stops here idea, even though maybe buck stops here idea, even though maybe he didn't feel maybe maybe he felt a he didn't feel maybe maybe he felt a he didn't feel maybe maybe he felt a little hoodwinked by the way this was little hoodwinked by the way this was little hoodwinked by the way this was handled. He wasn't going to say anything handled. He wasn't going to say anything handled. He wasn't going to say anything about it. He was not going to throw about it. He was not going to throw about it. He was not going to throw anyone under the bus. He was going to anyone under the bus. He was going to anyone under the bus. He was going to take all the responsibility for it, take all the responsibility for it, take all the responsibility for it, while at the same time using the fact while at the same time using the fact while at the same time using the fact that he'd gone through this and that it that he'd gone through this and that it that he'd gone through this and that it had happened to him to craft the way had happened to him to craft the way had happened to him to craft the way nuclear weapons were going to be used in nuclear weapons were going to be used in nuclear weapons were going to be used in the future, so no other president found the future, so no other president found the future, so no other president found himself sort of hamstrung or or in the himself sort of hamstrung or or in the himself sort of hamstrung or or in the same position. Um that to me is a same position. Um that to me is a same position. Um that to me is a fascinating sort of a a human crux in fascinating sort of a a human crux in fascinating sort of a a human crux in the history of weapons development, the history of weapons development, the history of weapons development, where, you know, you find just a almost where, you know, you find just a almost where, you know, you find just a almost like a regular guy in the White House like a regular guy in the White House like a regular guy in the White House having to figure out how we're now going having to figure out how we're now going having to figure out how we're now going to turn our entire human way of to turn our entire human way of to turn our entire human way of behaving, war making, everything we've behaving, war making, everything we've behaving, war making, everything we've done since prehistoric times and figure done since prehistoric times and figure done since prehistoric times and figure out how to adjust that and know that you out how to adjust that and know that you out how to adjust that and know that you can't put it in the hands of the can't put it in the hands of the can't put it in the hands of the military people alone, because he'd

military people alone, because he'd military people alone, because he'd already gone through that and look what already gone through that and look what already gone through that and look what happened to him. You've turned um Truman happened to him. You've turned um Truman happened to him. You've turned um Truman into one of the more interesting figures into one of the more interesting figures into one of the more interesting figures I've ever run into historically. I've ever run into historically. I've ever run into historically. I will say I I found Truman pretty I will say I I found Truman pretty I will say I I found Truman pretty boring before I started reading his boring before I started reading his boring before I started reading his >> Me, too. Yeah. >> Me, too. Yeah. >> Me, too. Yeah. He's you know, in the Truman literature, He's you know, in the Truman literature, He's you know, in the Truman literature, there's kind of been there's kind of been there's kind of been when he when he was when he when he was when he when he was when he was out of office, he was when he was out of office, he was when he was out of office, he was tremendously unpopular. Um he left tremendously unpopular. Um he left tremendously unpopular. Um he left tremendously unpopular and was thought tremendously unpopular and was thought tremendously unpopular and was thought of as like sort of a failed president. of as like sort of a failed president. of as like sort of a failed president. And then there was the sort of Truman And then there was the sort of Truman And then there was the sort of Truman revivalism revivalism revivalism in like the 1970s that cast him as sort in like the 1970s that cast him as sort in like the 1970s that cast him as sort of like the first Cold Warrior and boy, of like the first Cold Warrior and boy, of like the first Cold Warrior and boy, wasn't he in a bad spot, but he did all wasn't he in a bad spot, but he did all wasn't he in a bad spot, but he did all the right things. And then you have a the right things. And then you have a the right things. And then you have a sort of anti-Truman sort of anti-Truman sort of anti-Truman backlash, which is actually like, yes, backlash, which is actually like, yes, backlash, which is actually like, yes, he's a Cold Warrior, but a bad one. He's he's a Cold Warrior, but a bad one. He's he's a Cold Warrior, but a bad one. He's responsible for the whole Cold War. He's responsible for the whole Cold War. He's responsible for the whole Cold War. He's just a you know, he's conniving. And and just a you know, he's conniving. And and just a you know, he's conniving. And and the Truman I ended up the Truman I ended up the Truman I ended up finding in finding in finding in the sources the sources the sources was not really any of those, but he is, was not really any of those, but he is, was not really any of those, but he is, as you say, this this sort of almost as you say, this this sort of almost as you say, this this sort of almost everyman figure. I mean, there's there's everyman figure. I mean, there's there's everyman figure. I mean, there's there's this this this there's this Time magazine article where there's this Time magazine article where there's this Time magazine article where he's made Time magazine's Person of the he's made Time magazine's Person of the he's made Time magazine's Person of the Year in December 1945. And in their Year in December 1945. And in their Year in December 1945. And in their whole article about him, it's the most whole article about him, it's the most whole article about him, it's the most amazing article. You can find it online.

amazing article. You can find it online. amazing article. You can find it online. They basically are saying how unworthy They basically are saying how unworthy They basically are saying how unworthy he is to be the man of the year and how he is to be the man of the year and how he is to be the man of the year and how he's just this guy who is like bumbled he's just this guy who is like bumbled he's just this guy who is like bumbled in because Roosevelt died and because in because Roosevelt died and because in because Roosevelt died and because of, you know, Democratic Party horse of, you know, Democratic Party horse of, you know, Democratic Party horse racing. He happens to be the guy who's racing. He happens to be the guy who's racing. He happens to be the guy who's the vice president when when the actual the vice president when when the actual the vice president when when the actual president dies. And so, because of that, president dies. And so, because of that, president dies. And so, because of that, he happens to be the one with the atomic he happens to be the one with the atomic he happens to be the one with the atomic bomb and the end of World War II. And bomb and the end of World War II. And bomb and the end of World War II. And they they sort of make fun of how boring they they sort of make fun of how boring they they sort of make fun of how boring and normal he is, especially compared to and normal he is, especially compared to and normal he is, especially compared to someone like Roosevelt. They even make someone like Roosevelt. They even make someone like Roosevelt. They even make fun of his name, that he's the true man. fun of his name, that he's the true man. fun of his name, that he's the true man. Like it's this like like it's almost Like it's this like like it's almost Like it's this like like it's almost like a historical joke. And in a way like a historical joke. And in a way like a historical joke. And in a way that's like kind of unfair and in a way that's like kind of unfair and in a way that's like kind of unfair and in a way it's completely correct. Like he is a it's completely correct. Like he is a it's completely correct. Like he is a very very very human relatable figure in many ways. And human relatable figure in many ways. And human relatable figure in many ways. And you know, one wonders what it would be you know, one wonders what it would be you know, one wonders what it would be like if Roosevelt had lived, right? like if Roosevelt had lived, right? like if Roosevelt had lived, right? Roosevelt was not a relatable figure. He Roosevelt was not a relatable figure. He Roosevelt was not a relatable figure. He is a crafty is a crafty is a crafty upper class, you know, real political upper class, you know, real political upper class, you know, real political warrior at all at all at all. Secretive.

warrior at all at all at all. Secretive. warrior at all at all at all. Secretive. Secretive, Secretive, Secretive, all interested in being buddy-buddy with all interested in being buddy-buddy with all interested in being buddy-buddy with foreign powers and, you know, figuring foreign powers and, you know, figuring foreign powers and, you know, figuring all that out. Um all that out. Um all that out. Um you have somebody later like Eisenhower, you have somebody later like Eisenhower, you have somebody later like Eisenhower, who's much more military guy and puts who's much more military guy and puts who's much more military guy and puts more faith in that and has more more faith in that and has more more faith in that and has more ideological ideological ideological uh conceptions about the Cold War and uh conceptions about the Cold War and uh conceptions about the Cold War and things like that. And and Truman is just things like that. And and Truman is just things like that. And and Truman is just not. And it's one of the things I found not. And it's one of the things I found not. And it's one of the things I found fascinating. Like, for example, and this fascinating. Like, for example, and this fascinating. Like, for example, and this was surprising to me. I was surprising to me. I was surprising to me. I Truman isn't really a Cold Warrior until Truman isn't really a Cold Warrior until Truman isn't really a Cold Warrior until about 1950. He is the most sympathetic about 1950. He is the most sympathetic about 1950. He is the most sympathetic of possible, you know, realistic voices of possible, you know, realistic voices of possible, you know, realistic voices you could imagine having in the White you could imagine having in the White you could imagine having in the White House from 1945 to about 1950. And that House from 1945 to about 1950. And that House from 1945 to about 1950. And that he thinks the the Soviets are jerks, he thinks the the Soviets are jerks, he thinks the the Soviets are jerks, but he mostly thinks that Stalin's a but he mostly thinks that Stalin's a but he mostly thinks that Stalin's a good guy and that it's the people around good guy and that it's the people around good guy and that it's the people around Stalin who are the bad guys. And he Stalin who are the bad guys. And he Stalin who are the bad guys. And he thinks that once they get the sort of thinks that once they get the sort of thinks that once they get the sort of distrust and paranoia out of their distrust and paranoia out of their distrust and paranoia out of their system, they'll see that the United system, they'll see that the United system, they'll see that the United States is basically on their side. The States is basically on their side. The States is basically on their side. The United States is basically the good guys United States is basically the good guys United States is basically the good guys and that they don't have overlapping and that they don't have overlapping and that they don't have overlapping interests. That they he would be happy interests. That they he would be happy interests. That they he would be happy to sort of carve up the world between to sort of carve up the world between to sort of carve up the world between the Soviet Union and everybody else and the Soviet Union and everybody else and the Soviet Union and everybody else and say, fine, as long as you stay in your say, fine, as long as you stay in your say, fine, as long as you stay in your area, we'll stay in our area. It's area, we'll stay in our area. It's area, we'll stay in our area. It's great. And it's not until the Korean War great. And it's not until the Korean War great. And it's not until the Korean War that he starts getting really bitter that he starts getting really bitter that he starts getting really bitter about that sort of thing and and starts about that sort of thing and and starts about that sort of thing and and starts believing that this, you know, believing that this, you know, believing that this, you know, reconciliation that he believes, you reconciliation that he believes, you reconciliation that he believes, you know, even in 1949, know, even in 1949, know, even in 1949, he tells people around him that he he tells people around him that he he tells people around him that he thinks that they're going to basically

thinks that they're going to basically thinks that they're going to basically be done with the Cold War in two years be done with the Cold War in two years be done with the Cold War in two years and they'll probably be able to ban all and they'll probably be able to ban all and they'll probably be able to ban all nuclear weapons by them nuclear weapons by them nuclear weapons by them as well, which nobody but Truman thinks, as well, which nobody but Truman thinks, as well, which nobody but Truman thinks, which is also the amazing thing. It's he which is also the amazing thing. It's he which is also the amazing thing. It's he has these very idiosyncratic views, has these very idiosyncratic views, has these very idiosyncratic views, which are not shared by a lot of the which are not shared by a lot of the which are not shared by a lot of the people around him. But nonetheless, he's people around him. But nonetheless, he's people around him. But nonetheless, he's the president and so these idiosyncratic the president and so these idiosyncratic the president and so these idiosyncratic views have a lot of impact. Well, and I views have a lot of impact. Well, and I views have a lot of impact. Well, and I keep trying to remind myself, these keep trying to remind myself, these keep trying to remind myself, these guys, and not just Truman, but you guys, and not just Truman, but you guys, and not just Truman, but you pointed out the age of a guy like Harry pointed out the age of a guy like Harry pointed out the age of a guy like Harry Stimson, who's born right after the Stimson, who's born right after the Stimson, who's born right after the Civil War. These are people from the Civil War. These are people from the Civil War. These are people from the 1800s trying to grasp the physicists who 1800s trying to grasp the physicists who 1800s trying to grasp the physicists who are splitting the atom. It reminds me of are splitting the atom. It reminds me of are splitting the atom. It reminds me of legislators in the Congress today trying legislators in the Congress today trying legislators in the Congress today trying to handle artificial intelligence. I to handle artificial intelligence. I to handle artificial intelligence. I mean, mean, mean, we're expecting these people to make we're expecting these people to make we're expecting these people to make rules, rules which, by the way, we rules, rules which, by the way, we rules, rules which, by the way, we still, you know, that form the germ of still, you know, that form the germ of still, you know, that form the germ of everything we still do with these kinds everything we still do with these kinds everything we still do with these kinds of weapons today. And yet, you know, of weapons today. And yet, you know, of weapons today. And yet, you know, they lived in the era of horse-drawn they lived in the era of horse-drawn they lived in the era of horse-drawn carriages when they were young kids carriages when they were young kids carriages when they were young kids growing up. How much does something like growing up. How much does something like growing up. How much does something like that impact man's ability, you know, that impact man's ability, you know, that impact man's ability, you know, when you're thrown into something like when you're thrown into something like when you're thrown into something like Harry Truman is, to roll with the Harry Truman is, to roll with the Harry Truman is, to roll with the punches here technologically when you punches here technologically when you punches here technologically when you just don't have any I mean, you you talk just don't have any I mean, you you talk just don't have any I mean, you you talk about one meeting where they basically about one meeting where they basically about one meeting where they basically have to explain to him about things like have to explain to him about things like have to explain to him about things like exotic things like plutonium and uranium exotic things like plutonium and uranium exotic things like plutonium and uranium and and the atom and everything else.

and and the atom and everything else. and and the atom and everything else. Can you talk a little about trying to Can you talk a little about trying to Can you talk a little about trying to make, you know, world-crafting, make, you know, world-crafting, make, you know, world-crafting, civilizational-protecting civilizational-protecting civilizational-protecting legislation when you're a guy from the legislation when you're a guy from the legislation when you're a guy from the 1800s? 1800s? 1800s? What I find amazing about some of these What I find amazing about some of these What I find amazing about some of these meetings with Truman is you'll have this meetings with Truman is you'll have this meetings with Truman is you'll have this memo or this diary account where they memo or this diary account where they memo or this diary account where they explain all the things they tried to get explain all the things they tried to get explain all the things they tried to get across them. And so, in this early across them. And so, in this early across them. And so, in this early meeting in April 1945, they they meeting in April 1945, they they meeting in April 1945, they they basically try to give him the entire basically try to give him the entire basically try to give him the entire history and science of the Manhattan history and science of the Manhattan history and science of the Manhattan Project, which I can tell you from Project, which I can tell you from Project, which I can tell you from teaching on the subject is is a lot, teaching on the subject is is a lot, teaching on the subject is is a lot, right? It's hard for me to cover that right? It's hard for me to cover that right? It's hard for me to cover that material in like three hours, right? If material in like three hours, right? If material in like three hours, right? If I wanted to really do it degree that I I wanted to really do it degree that I I wanted to really do it degree that I feel that a modern person would feel that a modern person would feel that a modern person would understand these things. And you then understand these things. And you then understand these things. And you then you look at the times on on when people you look at the times on on when people you look at the times on on when people left the meeting, cuz all of this is left the meeting, cuz all of this is left the meeting, cuz all of this is recorded, of course. And it's like, recorded, of course. And it's like, recorded, of course. And it's like, well, that entire meeting was done in 25 well, that entire meeting was done in 25 well, that entire meeting was done in 25 minutes. And you think, well, that minutes. And you think, well, that minutes. And you think, well, that cannot have been cannot have been cannot have been either of these people can speak at five either of these people can speak at five either of these people can speak at five times the rate that you or I can and times the rate that you or I can and times the rate that you or I can and understand. Or there was a lot of sort understand. Or there was a lot of sort understand. Or there was a lot of sort of gesturing and sort of not getting of gesturing and sort of not getting of gesturing and sort of not getting very deep into this, because there just very deep into this, because there just very deep into this, because there just isn't enough time to get a real in-depth isn't enough time to get a real in-depth isn't enough time to get a real in-depth understanding. Um one thing with Truman, understanding. Um one thing with Truman, understanding. Um one thing with Truman, and and this is the way that I think and and this is the way that I think and and this is the way that I think most presidents deal with this, very few most presidents deal with this, very few most presidents deal with this, very few presidents presidents presidents there's maybe one or two exceptions there's maybe one or two exceptions there's maybe one or two exceptions um really have gotten into the weeds on um really have gotten into the weeds on um really have gotten into the weeds on nuclear weapons policy uh because they nuclear weapons policy uh because they nuclear weapons policy uh because they don't have the knowledge to do it. I don't have the knowledge to do it. I don't have the knowledge to do it. I think it makes them uncomfortable. Um

think it makes them uncomfortable. Um think it makes them uncomfortable. Um and they're willing to sort of hand that and they're willing to sort of hand that and they're willing to sort of hand that off to experts and say, okay, you tell off to experts and say, okay, you tell off to experts and say, okay, you tell me, boil it down to one choice or me, boil it down to one choice or me, boil it down to one choice or another choice. And Truman mostly does another choice. And Truman mostly does another choice. And Truman mostly does that. There are some places where he that. There are some places where he that. There are some places where he 100% hands over 100% hands over 100% hands over what's going to happen to his expert what's going to happen to his expert what's going to happen to his expert advisors, advisors, advisors, um who might be technical people, they um who might be technical people, they um who might be technical people, they might be diplomats, it depends on the might be diplomats, it depends on the might be diplomats, it depends on the topic, the military, etc. And then there topic, the military, etc. And then there topic, the military, etc. And then there are places in which he are places in which he are places in which he um um um uh uh uh you know, wants there to be sort of a you know, wants there to be sort of a you know, wants there to be sort of a choice that he will make. And then there choice that he will make. And then there choice that he will make. And then there are some places where he lays down the are some places where he lays down the are some places where he lays down the law in the absence of people telling him law in the absence of people telling him law in the absence of people telling him that that's the way he ought to do it. that that's the way he ought to do it. that that's the way he ought to do it. Those latter ones are for me the most Those latter ones are for me the most Those latter ones are for me the most interesting places because he's not interesting places because he's not interesting places because he's not operating from some sort of deep operating from some sort of deep operating from some sort of deep technical knowledge. He just doesn't technical knowledge. He just doesn't technical knowledge. He just doesn't have it, right? He This guy have it, right? He This guy have it, right? He This guy barely has an idea of what an atom is, barely has an idea of what an atom is, barely has an idea of what an atom is, right? He certainly right? He certainly right? He certainly you know, you know, you know, uh the uh the uh the what goes into operating this kind of uh what goes into operating this kind of uh what goes into operating this kind of uh the the the you know, the nuclear infrastructure, you know, the nuclear infrastructure, you know, the nuclear infrastructure, which is gigantic. Um but what he does which is gigantic. Um but what he does which is gigantic. Um but what he does have is this sort of base these sort of have is this sort of base these sort of have is this sort of base these sort of very simple I I I don't very simple I I I don't very simple I I I don't deride them by calling them simple, but deride them by calling them simple, but deride them by calling them simple, but the sort of basic the sort of basic the sort of basic opinions. And they are on things like, opinions. And they are on things like, opinions. And they are on things like, what is the military likely to do? What what is the military likely to do? What what is the military likely to do? What is Congress likely to do? What are other is Congress likely to do? What are other is Congress likely to do? What are other countries likely to do? What's the right countries likely to do? What's the right countries likely to do? What's the right thing for a state to be doing? What thing for a state to be doing? What thing for a state to be doing? What should the United States be doing and should the United States be doing and should the United States be doing and what should it not be doing? And and what should it not be doing? And and what should it not be doing? And and this is on the bomb where he really has

this is on the bomb where he really has this is on the bomb where he really has these occasionally very strong positions these occasionally very strong positions these occasionally very strong positions on like they're basically moral on like they're basically moral on like they're basically moral positions, which is like it's not positions, which is like it's not positions, which is like it's not you you should not be planning to commit you you should not be planning to commit you you should not be planning to commit a genocide. Like he didn't ever word it a genocide. Like he didn't ever word it a genocide. Like he didn't ever word it that way, that's not the language he that way, that's not the language he that way, that's not the language he would use, but this is a sort would use, but this is a sort would use, but this is a sort essentially how he feels about World War essentially how he feels about World War essentially how he feels about World War III. Like we shouldn't do it. Like even III. Like we shouldn't do it. Like even III. Like we shouldn't do it. Like even if it's in your advantage, you shouldn't if it's in your advantage, you shouldn't if it's in your advantage, you shouldn't do it because that's not the right thing do it because that's not the right thing do it because that's not the right thing to do. That's not what the good guys do. to do. That's not what the good guys do. to do. That's not what the good guys do. We are the good guys. And in a way that We are the good guys. And in a way that We are the good guys. And in a way that that's in such opposition to like how a that's in such opposition to like how a that's in such opposition to like how a think tanker type of that of that era think tanker type of that of that era think tanker type of that of that era approaches it, right? It's not this like approaches it, right? It's not this like approaches it, right? It's not this like >> a Herman Kahn guy or somebody. >> a Herman Kahn guy or somebody. >> a Herman Kahn guy or somebody. Right. It's not deeply analytical. It's Right. It's not deeply analytical. It's Right. It's not deeply analytical. It's it's much more it's much more it's much more again, everyman in a way. again, everyman in a way. again, everyman in a way. Well, so that I find that helpful Well, so that I find that helpful Well, so that I find that helpful though. Like maybe you don't want a though. Like maybe you don't want a though. Like maybe you don't want a Herman Kahn as your president at a Herman Kahn as your president at a Herman Kahn as your president at a moment like that. Maybe you need a moment like that. Maybe you need a moment like that. Maybe you need a deeply human uh person who's looking at deeply human uh person who's looking at deeply human uh person who's looking at this from from a perspective of an this from from a perspective of an this from from a perspective of an everyman. I mean for the part that never everyman. I mean for the part that never everyman. I mean for the part that never made sense to me and you bring it up in made sense to me and you bring it up in made sense to me and you bring it up in your book, too, but maybe it makes the your book, too, but maybe it makes the your book, too, but maybe it makes the whole atomic bombing thing not as not as whole atomic bombing thing not as not as whole atomic bombing thing not as not as such a leap of gruesomeness as it would such a leap of gruesomeness as it would such a leap of gruesomeness as it would be if somebody dropped one today is the be if somebody dropped one today is the be if somebody dropped one today is the firebombing that's already going on in firebombing that's already going on in firebombing that's already going on in Japan, right? You mentioned that uh uh Japan, right? You mentioned that uh uh Japan, right? You mentioned that uh uh Stimson had talked about not wanting to Stimson had talked about not wanting to Stimson had talked about not wanting to be seen like the United States was some, be seen like the United States was some, be seen like the United States was some, you know, atrocity committer on the on you know, atrocity committer on the on you know, atrocity committer on the on the levels of the Nazis, but but the the levels of the Nazis, but but the the levels of the Nazis, but but the amount of stuff we were already doing amount of stuff we were already doing amount of stuff we were already doing there before we used atomic weapons

there before we used atomic weapons there before we used atomic weapons makes atomic weapons seem like a, you makes atomic weapons seem like a, you makes atomic weapons seem like a, you know, a turning up of the dial from an know, a turning up of the dial from an know, a turning up of the dial from an eight to a 10 rather than from a zero to eight to a 10 rather than from a zero to eight to a 10 rather than from a zero to a 10. How much of the fact that this all a 10. How much of the fact that this all a 10. How much of the fact that this all happens in wartime as opposed to maybe happens in wartime as opposed to maybe happens in wartime as opposed to maybe seeing the bomb developed in '47 in seeing the bomb developed in '47 in seeing the bomb developed in '47 in peacetime uh and maybe we don't even use peacetime uh and maybe we don't even use peacetime uh and maybe we don't even use it today. One of the quotes I read in it today. One of the quotes I read in it today. One of the quotes I read in your book, not to change the subject cuz your book, not to change the subject cuz your book, not to change the subject cuz it isn't, but you said something I'd it isn't, but you said something I'd it isn't, but you said something I'd never heard before where it's a never heard before where it's a never heard before where it's a wonderful counterfactual where General wonderful counterfactual where General wonderful counterfactual where General George Marshall had even suggested, you George Marshall had even suggested, you George Marshall had even suggested, you say, that perhaps the bomb not even say, that perhaps the bomb not even say, that perhaps the bomb not even should be used in the Second World War should be used in the Second World War should be used in the Second World War at all and that we should keep it a at all and that we should keep it a at all and that we should keep it a permanent secret. I feel like that gives permanent secret. I feel like that gives permanent secret. I feel like that gives us an idea of some of the strangeness of us an idea of some of the strangeness of us an idea of some of the strangeness of the era. Can we talk about how maybe the the era. Can we talk about how maybe the the era. Can we talk about how maybe the fact that this is a hot war going on and fact that this is a hot war going on and fact that this is a hot war going on and the fact that we're already firebombing the fact that we're already firebombing the fact that we're already firebombing Japan and that's tragic and horrific Japan and that's tragic and horrific Japan and that's tragic and horrific enough. How does that play into the enough. How does that play into the enough. How does that play into the nuclear weapons question? It's it's the firebombing has this It's it's the firebombing has this interesting aspect because interesting aspect because interesting aspect because of course today we talk about the of course today we talk about the of course today we talk about the firebombing a lot and it wasn't secret. firebombing a lot and it wasn't secret. firebombing a lot and it wasn't secret. Like the they were Like the they were Like the they were bragging about it. Curtis LeMay was bragging about it. Curtis LeMay was bragging about it. Curtis LeMay was giving press conferences talking about giving press conferences talking about giving press conferences talking about how much they've destroyed and things how much they've destroyed and things how much they've destroyed and things like this. But it wasn't um like this. But it wasn't um like this. But it wasn't um at no point did any reporter ask either at no point did any reporter ask either at no point did any reporter ask either Roosevelt or Truman what they thought Roosevelt or Truman what they thought Roosevelt or Truman what they thought about the firebombing, uh which is sort about the firebombing, uh which is sort about the firebombing, uh which is sort of hard to imagine today, right? If you of hard to imagine today, right? If you of hard to imagine today, right? If you were engaged in this, were engaged in this, were engaged in this, um um um it just wasn't a point of discussion.

it just wasn't a point of discussion. it just wasn't a point of discussion. And even in the military, it does not And even in the military, it does not And even in the military, it does not seem to have been a point of discussion. seem to have been a point of discussion. seem to have been a point of discussion. The only person who routine who The only person who routine who The only person who routine who occasionally tried to look into it was occasionally tried to look into it was occasionally tried to look into it was Stimson. Stimson. Stimson. And they basically told him And they basically told him And they basically told him they it was fine. And I don't know if they it was fine. And I don't know if they it was fine. And I don't know if Stimson accepted that. Stimson accepted that. Stimson accepted that. Um he may have just been busy. He may Um he may have just been busy. He may Um he may have just been busy. He may have have have also again not felt like he was in a also again not felt like he was in a also again not felt like he was in a political position where he could political position where he could political position where he could challenge challenge challenge what these people were doing. what these people were doing. what these people were doing. Um Um Um but I think we often look at that and but I think we often look at that and but I think we often look at that and say say say essentially, well, because they were essentially, well, because they were essentially, well, because they were firebombing, they didn't have moral firebombing, they didn't have moral firebombing, they didn't have moral qualms about destroying cities. And I'm qualms about destroying cities. And I'm qualms about destroying cities. And I'm not sure that's true. I think that they not sure that's true. I think that they not sure that's true. I think that they could both be firebombing and people could both be firebombing and people could both be firebombing and people could have moral qualms about cities. could have moral qualms about cities. could have moral qualms about cities. Marshall, who you brought up, is really Marshall, who you brought up, is really Marshall, who you brought up, is really interesting because he's a chief of interesting because he's a chief of interesting because he's a chief of staff. He's he's he's ostensibly the the staff. He's he's he's ostensibly the the staff. He's he's he's ostensibly the the highest military person with any highest military person with any highest military person with any authority. And people don't generally go authority. And people don't generally go authority. And people don't generally go to him and ask him what he thinks about to him and ask him what he thinks about to him and ask him what he thinks about this kind of stuff. And occasionally this kind of stuff. And occasionally this kind of stuff. And occasionally they do ask him and record his they do ask him and record his they do ask him and record his responses.

responses. responses. And his opinions aren't what you'd And his opinions aren't what you'd And his opinions aren't what you'd expect. I mean, as you said, he he at expect. I mean, as you said, he he at expect. I mean, as you said, he he at one point he suggested maybe they just one point he suggested maybe they just one point he suggested maybe they just shouldn't use the atomic bomb. He also shouldn't use the atomic bomb. He also shouldn't use the atomic bomb. He also uh suggests that they shouldn't use it uh suggests that they shouldn't use it uh suggests that they shouldn't use it on cities that that that it's it's not a on cities that that that it's it's not a on cities that that that it's it's not a good idea. At the same time, he also good idea. At the same time, he also good idea. At the same time, he also says we could use chemical weapons says we could use chemical weapons says we could use chemical weapons against troops, but we wouldn't use them against troops, but we wouldn't use them against troops, but we wouldn't use them against cities, which is not the general against cities, which is not the general against cities, which is not the general way in which we tend to divide these way in which we tend to divide these way in which we tend to divide these things up, right? Um things up, right? Um things up, right? Um and yet when he received pushback for and yet when he received pushback for and yet when he received pushback for these, he just said, okay, whatever, these, he just said, okay, whatever, these, he just said, okay, whatever, right? I mean, he basically let other It right? I mean, he basically let other It right? I mean, he basically let other It was clear that was not the direction was clear that was not the direction was clear that was not the direction people were going in. Um I think with people were going in. Um I think with people were going in. Um I think with you know, I don't know how aware Truman you know, I don't know how aware Truman you know, I don't know how aware Truman was of the firebombing. Uh was of the firebombing. Uh was of the firebombing. Uh again, it's in the newspapers. He must again, it's in the newspapers. He must again, it's in the newspapers. He must have been aware of it to some degree. have been aware of it to some degree. have been aware of it to some degree. Stimson did go to him and and suggest Stimson did go to him and and suggest Stimson did go to him and and suggest the the the uh that they were going to get the uh that they were going to get the uh that they were going to get the reputation of outdoing the Nazis in reputation of outdoing the Nazis in reputation of outdoing the Nazis in atrocities. Um atrocities. Um atrocities. Um at the same time at the same time at the same time his opinion was never asked. Nobody ever his opinion was never asked. Nobody ever his opinion was never asked. Nobody ever went to him and said, should we keep went to him and said, should we keep went to him and said, should we keep doing this, yes or no? Even Stimson, who doing this, yes or no? Even Stimson, who doing this, yes or no? Even Stimson, who was essentially trying to lobby for was essentially trying to lobby for was essentially trying to lobby for restraint, never said could you stop restraint, never said could you stop restraint, never said could you stop doing this? He instead simply said, you doing this? He instead simply said, you doing this? He instead simply said, you know, here are some issues, here are know, here are some issues, here are know, here are some issues, here are some qualms, anyway, moving on, right?

some qualms, anyway, moving on, right? some qualms, anyway, moving on, right? And I think that's very interesting. My And I think that's very interesting. My And I think that's very interesting. My suspicion, and this is just from suspicion, and this is just from suspicion, and this is just from being a human being, we don't have being a human being, we don't have being a human being, we don't have records that that tell us this. Uh records that that tell us this. Uh records that that tell us this. Uh you know, if you ask somebody to do you know, if you ask somebody to do you know, if you ask somebody to do something and they say no, that's a something and they say no, that's a something and they say no, that's a bigger defeat than simply putting the bigger defeat than simply putting the bigger defeat than simply putting the idea out there and hoping they might do idea out there and hoping they might do idea out there and hoping they might do something about it. And I don't think something about it. And I don't think something about it. And I don't think that Stimson necessarily felt that it that Stimson necessarily felt that it that Stimson necessarily felt that it was his place was his place was his place to ask the president to stop doing to ask the president to stop doing to ask the president to stop doing something. That that's maybe not the something. That that's maybe not the something. That that's maybe not the role he's supposed to have. If the role he's supposed to have. If the role he's supposed to have. If the president wants to stop it, the president wants to stop it, the president wants to stop it, the president can stop it. Um president can stop it. Um president can stop it. Um I think that certainly if it was I think that certainly if it was I think that certainly if it was peacetime, it would be a bit different. peacetime, it would be a bit different. peacetime, it would be a bit different. We we see a little bit of that with the We we see a little bit of that with the We we see a little bit of that with the H-bomb development, which Truman H-bomb development, which Truman H-bomb development, which Truman ultimately essentially approves, but ultimately essentially approves, but ultimately essentially approves, but with a very with a very with a very for very domestic political reasons and for very domestic political reasons and for very domestic political reasons and with a very heavy heart and with the with a very heavy heart and with the with a very heavy heart and with the sort of explicit sort of explicit sort of explicit uh uh uh uh sentiment that he does not plan to uh sentiment that he does not plan to uh sentiment that he does not plan to use these things, that they just need to use these things, that they just need to use these things, that they just need to maybe build these things, which is a way maybe build these things, which is a way maybe build these things, which is a way to to to uh lessen the moral hazard, arguably.

uh lessen the moral hazard, arguably. uh lessen the moral hazard, arguably. Well, and let's remember, you know, we Well, and let's remember, you know, we Well, and let's remember, you know, we were talking about like why can't some were talking about like why can't some were talking about like why can't some of these people in positions of power of these people in positions of power of these people in positions of power think more about this and think more think more about this and think more think more about this and think more about, you know, sparing people and about, you know, sparing people and about, you know, sparing people and whatnot. But maybe we're forgetting, you whatnot. But maybe we're forgetting, you whatnot. But maybe we're forgetting, you know, how the average American was know, how the average American was know, how the average American was feeling at that time. You quote a poll feeling at that time. You quote a poll feeling at that time. You quote a poll by Fortune magazine taken in December by Fortune magazine taken in December by Fortune magazine taken in December 1945, which of course is after the war 1945, which of course is after the war 1945, which of course is after the war was over uh by a few months, asking how was over uh by a few months, asking how was over uh by a few months, asking how people felt about, quote, our use of the people felt about, quote, our use of the people felt about, quote, our use of the atomic bomb. And here's what you write. atomic bomb. And here's what you write. atomic bomb. And here's what you write. Um Um Um it indicated that only 4.5% it indicated that only 4.5% it indicated that only 4.5% of those surveyed believed the atomic of those surveyed believed the atomic of those surveyed believed the atomic bombs ought not to have been used at bombs ought not to have been used at bombs ought not to have been used at all, and only 13.8% all, and only 13.8% all, and only 13.8% believed that they ought to have had believed that they ought to have had believed that they ought to have had their power demonstrated in a way that their power demonstrated in a way that their power demonstrated in a way that did not kill anyone first, for example, did not kill anyone first, for example, did not kill anyone first, for example, dropping one first in some unpopulated dropping one first in some unpopulated dropping one first in some unpopulated region. Uh a solid majority of 53.5% region. Uh a solid majority of 53.5% region. Uh a solid majority of 53.5% endorsed the use of the bombs on cities endorsed the use of the bombs on cities endorsed the use of the bombs on cities just as they were used, and a striking just as they were used, and a striking just as they were used, and a striking 22.7% 22.7% 22.7% you write wished that there had been you write wished that there had been you write wished that there had been more time to have quickly used many more more time to have quickly used many more more time to have quickly used many more of them before Japan had a chance to of them before Japan had a chance to of them before Japan had a chance to surrender. So, let's not in cold blood surrender. So, let's not in cold blood surrender. So, let's not in cold blood forget that these people were still forget that these people were still forget that these people were still talking about Pearl Harbor, uh gold star talking about Pearl Harbor, uh gold star talking about Pearl Harbor, uh gold star families. I mean, all this sort of stuff families. I mean, all this sort of stuff families. I mean, all this sort of stuff was still fresh in the minds. So, had was still fresh in the minds. So, had was still fresh in the minds. So, had Truman or uh Stimson or uh Marshall or Truman or uh Stimson or uh Marshall or Truman or uh Stimson or uh Marshall or any of those guys been proposing uh any of those guys been proposing uh any of those guys been proposing uh something softer, they would have something softer, they would have something softer, they would have actually been outside the norm of public actually been outside the norm of public actually been outside the norm of public opinion for that time period, wouldn't opinion for that time period, wouldn't opinion for that time period, wouldn't they?

they? they? I think it's hard to know how I think it's hard to know how I think it's hard to know how much public opinion follows what happens much public opinion follows what happens much public opinion follows what happens and seemed to have worked, right? If and seemed to have worked, right? If and seemed to have worked, right? If they had done something different, and they had done something different, and they had done something different, and it's it's it's >> Right. It it So, this is and I'm and I'm >> Right. It it So, this is and I'm and I'm >> Right. It it So, this is and I'm and I'm not I I I agree that not I I I agree that not I I I agree that So, Stimson, for example, is really So, Stimson, for example, is really So, Stimson, for example, is really interesting in this respect because he interesting in this respect because he interesting in this respect because he one, he kept a diary, which is really one, he kept a diary, which is really one, he kept a diary, which is really helpful, right? He wrote down every helpful, right? He wrote down every helpful, right? He wrote down every little thought he had, which super little thought he had, which super little thought he had, which super helpful. Thank you, Secretary of War helpful. Thank you, Secretary of War helpful. Thank you, Secretary of War Henry Stimson. Um but like he was really Henry Stimson. Um but like he was really Henry Stimson. Um but like he was really concerned concerned concerned with um with um with um you know, how do you set up the you know, how do you set up the you know, how do you set up the conditions for getting the kinds of conditions for getting the kinds of conditions for getting the kinds of things that he thinks will be useful. things that he thinks will be useful. things that he thinks will be useful. And so, for example, he really is not a And so, for example, he really is not a And so, for example, he really is not a fan of the anti-Japanese fan of the anti-Japanese fan of the anti-Japanese um um um sort of the really extreme version of sort of the really extreme version of sort of the really extreme version of that because in his mind, that's going that because in his mind, that's going that because in his mind, that's going to get in the way of ending the war. So, to get in the way of ending the war. So, to get in the way of ending the war. So, he was a big proponent of what if we he was a big proponent of what if we he was a big proponent of what if we basically clarify basically clarify basically clarify to the Japanese emperor that we won't to the Japanese emperor that we won't to the Japanese emperor that we won't harm their position and they can still harm their position and they can still harm their position and they can still run the country and we're not going to run the country and we're not going to run the country and we're not going to change their government if they don't change their government if they don't change their government if they don't want to want to want to once they've demilitarized once they've demilitarized once they've demilitarized um um um in part because he really felt that that in part because he really felt that that in part because he really felt that that was what was going to be needed to was what was going to be needed to was what was going to be needed to get the Japanese on board with surrender get the Japanese on board with surrender get the Japanese on board with surrender um and that got turned down by Truman um and that got turned down by Truman um and that got turned down by Truman both both both for for complicated reasons but also for for complicated reasons but also for for complicated reasons but also under the influence of of Burns under the influence of of Burns under the influence of of Burns in part because of Pearl Harbor right

in part because of Pearl Harbor right in part because of Pearl Harbor right like like that's not a sentiment that he like like that's not a sentiment that he like like that's not a sentiment that he doesn't want to give the Japanese any doesn't want to give the Japanese any doesn't want to give the Japanese any concessions of any form um but it's concessions of any form um but it's concessions of any form um but it's interesting that somebody like not just interesting that somebody like not just interesting that somebody like not just Stimson Winston Churchill thought this I Stimson Winston Churchill thought this I Stimson Winston Churchill thought this I mean these are views that look much more mean these are views that look much more mean these are views that look much more conciliatory but if you believe that conciliatory but if you believe that conciliatory but if you believe that that's going to be a major stumbling that's going to be a major stumbling that's going to be a major stumbling block for the Japanese which Stimson did block for the Japanese which Stimson did block for the Japanese which Stimson did and Stimson had been to Japan and and and Stimson had been to Japan and and and Stimson had been to Japan and and thought of himself as a sort of thought of himself as a sort of thought of himself as a sort of uh uh uh Japan expert and you know one of the Japan expert and you know one of the Japan expert and you know one of the things that Stimson hated was that there things that Stimson hated was that there things that Stimson hated was that there was a view that the Japanese were these was a view that the Japanese were these was a view that the Japanese were these fanatical basically death cult people fanatical basically death cult people fanatical basically death cult people which you know some of them were and but which you know some of them were and but which you know some of them were and but Stimson would be quick to point out that Stimson would be quick to point out that Stimson would be quick to point out that like not all the Japanese and not all like not all the Japanese and not all like not all the Japanese and not all the Japanese in power and there's going the Japanese in power and there's going the Japanese in power and there's going to be a significant chunk of the ones in to be a significant chunk of the ones in to be a significant chunk of the ones in power who are pretty rational and so if power who are pretty rational and so if power who are pretty rational and so if you treat them all like they're going to you treat them all like they're going to you treat them all like they're going to fight to the last man then that's what fight to the last man then that's what fight to the last man then that's what you're going to get you're going to get you're going to get you're going to get you're going to get you're going to get fighting to the last man if you can find fighting to the last man if you can find fighting to the last man if you can find a way to let the ones who are more a way to let the ones who are more a way to let the ones who are more reasonable have a way out and and give reasonable have a way out and and give reasonable have a way out and and give them power then that's going to get you them power then that's going to get you them power then that's going to get you the end of the war and then ultimately the end of the war and then ultimately the end of the war and then ultimately you know what people want is to win the you know what people want is to win the you know what people want is to win the war war war >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> so I think he you know if you can get >> so I think he you know if you can get >> so I think he you know if you can get that people will probably be happy no that people will probably be happy no that people will probably be happy no matter what you do or at least be matter what you do or at least be matter what you do or at least be conflicted cuz you know how people are conflicted cuz you know how people are conflicted cuz you know how people are so so so I think it's tricky uh I think it's tricky uh I think it's tricky uh I do think that public opinion was part I do think that public opinion was part I do think that public opinion was part of some of these of some of these of some of these deliberations I don't think it was why deliberations I don't think it was why deliberations I don't think it was why they dropped the bomb they dropped the bomb they dropped the bomb uh I don't think it really

uh I don't think it really uh I don't think it really had a big impact on the decisions they had a big impact on the decisions they had a big impact on the decisions they made in that respect just because they made in that respect just because they made in that respect just because they already had other reasons for wanting to already had other reasons for wanting to already had other reasons for wanting to make those decisions Yeah you list make those decisions Yeah you list make those decisions Yeah you list >> I was going to say you list four reasons >> I was going to say you list four reasons >> I was going to say you list four reasons only two of which I are the ones only two of which I are the ones only two of which I are the ones normally pointed out there of reasons normally pointed out there of reasons normally pointed out there of reasons why they wanted to drop the bomb um and why they wanted to drop the bomb um and why they wanted to drop the bomb um and you know the the the message to the you know the the the message to the you know the the the message to the Soviets uh demonstration of the weapon Soviets uh demonstration of the weapon Soviets uh demonstration of the weapon you know there a whole bunch of things you know there a whole bunch of things you know there a whole bunch of things but but there's as you pointed out there but but there's as you pointed out there but but there's as you pointed out there are so many little things that went into are so many little things that went into are so many little things that went into it it's strange to think of the it it's strange to think of the it it's strange to think of the possibility nowadays when we look back possibility nowadays when we look back possibility nowadays when we look back on it and think about them not dropping on it and think about them not dropping on it and think about them not dropping it what you know didn't didn't Groves uh it what you know didn't didn't Groves uh it what you know didn't didn't Groves uh the head of the program the military the head of the program the military the head of the program the military engineer say something like that they engineer say something like that they engineer say something like that they would be justified uh given all of the would be justified uh given all of the would be justified uh given all of the resources that had been put into that in resources that had been put into that in resources that had been put into that in a zero-sum kind of game if they didn't a zero-sum kind of game if they didn't a zero-sum kind of game if they didn't use it the American people could hang use it the American people could hang use it the American people could hang them from every lamp post or something them from every lamp post or something them from every lamp post or something like that um but but what's interesting like that um but but what's interesting like that um but but what's interesting to get back to what you've put out here to get back to what you've put out here to get back to what you've put out here that no one else has put out is is the that no one else has put out is is the that no one else has put out is is the idea that Truman may have thought he was idea that Truman may have thought he was idea that Truman may have thought he was doing something he really wasn't and doing something he really wasn't and doing something he really wasn't and then afterwards he took responsibility then afterwards he took responsibility then afterwards he took responsibility for it anyway and then behind the scenes for it anyway and then behind the scenes for it anyway and then behind the scenes tried to see that it never happened tried to see that it never happened tried to see that it never happened again how does a president get again how does a president get again how does a president get hoodwinked hoodwinked hoodwinked so I you know hoodwinking implies like so I you know hoodwinking implies like so I you know hoodwinking implies like deliberate deception and I don't think deliberate deception and I don't think deliberate deception and I don't think it was that like I don't think Stimson it was that like I don't think Stimson it was that like I don't think Stimson well let me back up so the whole context well let me back up so the whole context well let me back up so the whole context of this is this Kyoto question which of this is this Kyoto question which of this is this Kyoto question which you know people sometimes know a little you know people sometimes know a little you know people sometimes know a little bit about there's some myths about this

bit about there's some myths about this bit about there's some myths about this you know he wasn't on his honeymoon you know he wasn't on his honeymoon you know he wasn't on his honeymoon there you know this kind of stuff uh but there you know this kind of stuff uh but there you know this kind of stuff uh but for whatever reason Stimson when when for whatever reason Stimson when when for whatever reason Stimson when when Stimson hears the the list of atomic Stimson hears the the list of atomic Stimson hears the the list of atomic targets this is in May 1945 uh Kyoto is targets this is in May 1945 uh Kyoto is targets this is in May 1945 uh Kyoto is not only on the list but it's it's what not only on the list but it's it's what not only on the list but it's it's what the military wants to use the bomb on the military wants to use the bomb on the military wants to use the bomb on the most and he immediately and almost the most and he immediately and almost the most and he immediately and almost instinctually objects to this and I instinctually objects to this and I instinctually objects to this and I don't know exactly why he did I mean don't know exactly why he did I mean don't know exactly why he did I mean there's there's rationalizations one can there's there's rationalizations one can there's there's rationalizations one can give it's a place of culture it's mostly give it's a place of culture it's mostly give it's a place of culture it's mostly civilian it's the old capital that the civilian it's the old capital that the civilian it's the old capital that the Japanese will be sad if we do that and Japanese will be sad if we do that and Japanese will be sad if we do that and then they won't be our friends in the then they won't be our friends in the then they won't be our friends in the post-war and Stimson himself has a bunch post-war and Stimson himself has a bunch post-war and Stimson himself has a bunch of rationalizations that he uses over of rationalizations that he uses over of rationalizations that he uses over time to defend this but it's pretty time to defend this but it's pretty time to defend this but it's pretty clear that clear that clear that uh to me that that that this is almost uh to me that that that this is almost uh to me that that that this is almost uh an emotional response that he just he uh an emotional response that he just he uh an emotional response that he just he he knows Kyoto he doesn't want Kyoto on he knows Kyoto he doesn't want Kyoto on he knows Kyoto he doesn't want Kyoto on the list uh that there's something else the list uh that there's something else the list uh that there's something else going on there going on there going on there the military uh in this case General the military uh in this case General the military uh in this case General Groves is is not interested in really Groves is is not interested in really Groves is is not interested in really taking Kyoto off the list and really taking Kyoto off the list and really taking Kyoto off the list and really resents this I mean Groves later says resents this I mean Groves later says resents this I mean Groves later says that he's happy that Stimson does this that he's happy that Stimson does this that he's happy that Stimson does this but the the words that Groves uses even but the the words that Groves uses even but the the words that Groves uses even decades later he regards this as the decades later he regards this as the decades later he regards this as the only instance in which Stimson only instance in which Stimson only instance in which Stimson interfered with military planning and interfered with military planning and interfered with military planning and military objectives I mean interfered is military objectives I mean interfered is military objectives I mean interfered is such a great word right um anyway such a great word right um anyway such a great word right um anyway Stimson all the way up through Potsdam Stimson all the way up through Potsdam Stimson all the way up through Potsdam Groves has been going back to Stimson Groves has been going back to Stimson Groves has been going back to Stimson and saying what if we put Kyoto back on

and saying what if we put Kyoto back on and saying what if we put Kyoto back on the list and the list and the list and Groves himself says that they met you Groves himself says that they met you Groves himself says that they met you know dozen times after that initial know dozen times after that initial know dozen times after that initial meeting and every time Groves tried to meeting and every time Groves tried to meeting and every time Groves tried to put Kyoto back on the list and he says put Kyoto back on the list and he says put Kyoto back on the list and he says that Stimson you know took this in good that Stimson you know took this in good that Stimson you know took this in good humor I I I find this very unlikely that humor I I I find this very unlikely that humor I I I find this very unlikely that Stimson [laughter] actually appreciated Stimson [laughter] actually appreciated Stimson [laughter] actually appreciated this at all and this at all and this at all and finally the last bit was right as finally the last bit was right as finally the last bit was right as they're finalizing the target list uh uh they're finalizing the target list uh uh they're finalizing the target list uh uh this is now being done over teletype you this is now being done over teletype you this is now being done over teletype you know quite remote while Stimson's at know quite remote while Stimson's at know quite remote while Stimson's at Potsdam he gets a a teletype from Groves Potsdam he gets a a teletype from Groves Potsdam he gets a a teletype from Groves and from his people there and from his people there and from his people there who's which says who's which says who's which says hey could we could we put Kyoto back on hey could we could we put Kyoto back on hey could we could we put Kyoto back on the list just as a backup just in case the list just as a backup just in case the list just as a backup just in case the weather conditions just in case the weather conditions just in case the weather conditions just in case there's a good reason and he he there's a good reason and he he there's a good reason and he he immediately goes to Truman immediately goes to Truman immediately goes to Truman because it's clear that Groves is not because it's clear that Groves is not because it's clear that Groves is not willing to back down on this and is not willing to back down on this and is not willing to back down on this and is not accepting accepting accepting you know Stimson's emphatic rejection you know Stimson's emphatic rejection you know Stimson's emphatic rejection that Kyoto should be on the list as that Kyoto should be on the list as that Kyoto should be on the list as authorita- authoritative so he goes to authorita- authoritative so he goes to authorita- authoritative so he goes to Truman and basically gets Truman to Truman and basically gets Truman to Truman and basically gets Truman to agree that Kyoto shouldn't be on the agree that Kyoto shouldn't be on the agree that Kyoto shouldn't be on the list and then he can write back Groves list and then he can write back Groves list and then he can write back Groves and said I've had it confirmed at the and said I've had it confirmed at the and said I've had it confirmed at the highest level Kyoto's off the list great highest level Kyoto's off the list great highest level Kyoto's off the list great done that takes Kyoto off the list and done that takes Kyoto off the list and done that takes Kyoto off the list and makes Hiroshima number one that actually makes Hiroshima number one that actually makes Hiroshima number one that actually is what adds Nagasaki to the list as a is what adds Nagasaki to the list as a is what adds Nagasaki to the list as a backup target there's a whole lot that backup target there's a whole lot that backup target there's a whole lot that goes from that the [snorts] interesting goes from that the [snorts] interesting goes from that the [snorts] interesting thing is that meeting so thing is that meeting so thing is that meeting so we have Truman's account of what that we have Truman's account of what that we have Truman's account of what that was about and we have Stimson's account was about and we have Stimson's account was about and we have Stimson's account these are accounts from the time these are accounts from the time these are accounts from the time Stimson's diary and Truman kept a

Stimson's diary and Truman kept a Stimson's diary and Truman kept a journal at Potsdam and Stimson's diary journal at Potsdam and Stimson's diary journal at Potsdam and Stimson's diary you know makes it sound like he laid out you know makes it sound like he laid out you know makes it sound like he laid out a very rational case for basically Kyoto a very rational case for basically Kyoto a very rational case for basically Kyoto is this historic city and it's a is this historic city and it's a is this historic city and it's a civilian city and it's not a real civilian city and it's not a real civilian city and it's not a real military target and if we bomb it then military target and if we bomb it then military target and if we bomb it then the Japanese will never be our friends the Japanese will never be our friends the Japanese will never be our friends in the post-war and it'll get in way of in the post-war and it'll get in way of in the post-war and it'll get in way of our long-term goals our long-term goals our long-term goals Truman's writing on what this discussion Truman's writing on what this discussion Truman's writing on what this discussion was and this is again at Potsdam is that was and this is again at Potsdam is that was and this is again at Potsdam is that he and the Secretary of War decided that he and the Secretary of War decided that he and the Secretary of War decided that the first use of the bomb should be used the first use of the bomb should be used the first use of the bomb should be used against a military target um that women against a military target um that women against a military target um that women and children should not be the target and children should not be the target and children should not be the target but sailors and soldiers and uh that but sailors and soldiers and uh that but sailors and soldiers and uh that that this is why they're doing this and that this is why they're doing this and that this is why they're doing this and that he's pretty happy with this and that he's pretty happy with this and that he's pretty happy with this and this is sort of the this is sort of the this is sort of the the context for how you could be so the context for how you could be so the context for how you could be so confused on this what does [snorts] confused on this what does [snorts] confused on this what does [snorts] Stimson say to Truman at the meeting I Stimson say to Truman at the meeting I Stimson say to Truman at the meeting I don't know we we have no direct record don't know we we have no direct record don't know we we have no direct record or objective record but my suspicion or objective record but my suspicion or objective record but my suspicion just based on other ways that Stimson just based on other ways that Stimson just based on other ways that Stimson justified keeping Kyoto off the list one justified keeping Kyoto off the list one justified keeping Kyoto off the list one is that Stimson will say sort of is that Stimson will say sort of is that Stimson will say sort of whatever it takes to keep Kyoto from whatever it takes to keep Kyoto from whatever it takes to keep Kyoto from getting bombed two is Stimson's whole getting bombed two is Stimson's whole getting bombed two is Stimson's whole argument is is that there's this sort of argument is is that there's this sort of argument is is that there's this sort of division between a place like Hiroshima division between a place like Hiroshima division between a place like Hiroshima and a place like Kyoto that Kyoto and a place like Kyoto that Kyoto and a place like Kyoto that Kyoto doesn't really have military industry in doesn't really have military industry in doesn't really have military industry in it headquarters or anything like that it headquarters or anything like that it headquarters or anything like that and Hiroshima has a bunch of military and Hiroshima has a bunch of military and Hiroshima has a bunch of military factories and army you know points of

factories and army you know points of factories and army you know points of interest and things like this which is interest and things like this which is interest and things like this which is true to a degree the military even then true to a degree the military even then true to a degree the military even then and even afterwards would point out like and even afterwards would point out like and even afterwards would point out like actually Kyoto has military facilities actually Kyoto has military facilities actually Kyoto has military facilities as well as well as well actually Hiroshima is city as well right actually Hiroshima is city as well right actually Hiroshima is city as well right like the line between them is not as like the line between them is not as like the line between them is not as firm as Stimson would have probably firm as Stimson would have probably firm as Stimson would have probably drawn it but Stimson is trying to force drawn it but Stimson is trying to force drawn it but Stimson is trying to force an outcome and I think it's very an outcome and I think it's very an outcome and I think it's very plausible that Truman misunderstood plausible that Truman misunderstood plausible that Truman misunderstood the nature of this discussion that it's the nature of this discussion that it's the nature of this discussion that it's about two cities about two cities about two cities and instead thought it's about should we and instead thought it's about should we and instead thought it's about should we bomb a big city or should we bomb a big bomb a big city or should we bomb a big bomb a big city or should we bomb a big military base and then came away military base and then came away military base and then came away thinking and again this is from Truman's thinking and again this is from Truman's thinking and again this is from Truman's uh journal that they had chosen a quote uh journal that they had chosen a quote uh journal that they had chosen a quote purely military target and this purely purely military target and this purely purely military target and this purely military language crops up in a few military language crops up in a few military language crops up in a few other things that he works on uh up other things that he works on uh up other things that he works on uh up until they they have the first pictures until they they have the first pictures until they they have the first pictures of Hiroshima and it's clearly a city um of Hiroshima and it's clearly a city um of Hiroshima and it's clearly a city um and uh and so that's the the way it in and uh and so that's the the way it in and uh and so that's the the way it in my mind that this happens it's not so my mind that this happens it's not so my mind that this happens it's not so much that Stimson sets out to confuse much that Stimson sets out to confuse much that Stimson sets out to confuse Truman but Stimson sets out with a Truman but Stimson sets out with a Truman but Stimson sets out with a different goal which is to save Kyoto different goal which is to save Kyoto different goal which is to save Kyoto and I don't think and I don't think and I don't think Truman realizes that he's misunderstood Truman realizes that he's misunderstood Truman realizes that he's misunderstood this conversation and I think the this conversation and I think the this conversation and I think the consequence of that is that he doesn't consequence of that is that he doesn't consequence of that is that he doesn't and also Truman is busy at this time to and also Truman is busy at this time to and also Truman is busy at this time to be sure but he doesn't ask for follow-up be sure but he doesn't ask for follow-up be sure but he doesn't ask for follow-up he doesn't ask for you know he doesn't he doesn't ask for you know he doesn't he doesn't ask for you know he doesn't reconfirm that he's understood these reconfirm that he's understood these reconfirm that he's understood these things things things if you put it that way

if you put it that way if you put it that way it's not hard at all to understand how a it's not hard at all to understand how a it's not hard at all to understand how a president could be president could be president could be misunderstood about something misunderstood about something misunderstood about something we have presidents misunderstanding we have presidents misunderstanding we have presidents misunderstanding things all the time things all the time things all the time this is a and this is also not some sort this is a and this is also not some sort this is a and this is also not some sort of like formal briefing with all of his of like formal briefing with all of his of like formal briefing with all of his advisers in the room this is a advisers in the room this is a advisers in the room this is a one-on-one conversation with somebody one-on-one conversation with somebody one-on-one conversation with somebody who has a very definite goal in mind who has a very definite goal in mind who has a very definite goal in mind entering into this conversation. I don't entering into this conversation. I don't entering into this conversation. I don't think Stimson think Stimson think Stimson would have wanted to mislead Truman at would have wanted to mislead Truman at would have wanted to mislead Truman at all. I That's just not his his all. I That's just not his his all. I That's just not his his character. But I I think it's totally character. But I I think it's totally character. But I I think it's totally possible he could have. possible he could have. possible he could have. So you bring up uh an interesting point So you bring up uh an interesting point So you bring up uh an interesting point when you talk about the fact that uh when you talk about the fact that uh when you talk about the fact that uh Truman, as you said, may have entirely Truman, as you said, may have entirely Truman, as you said, may have entirely misunderstood the targeting of misunderstood the targeting of misunderstood the targeting of Hiroshima. Uh and then you say, "I've Hiroshima. Uh and then you say, "I've Hiroshima. Uh and then you say, "I've tried to provide the context here that tried to provide the context here that tried to provide the context here that would make this seem like a plausible would make this seem like a plausible would make this seem like a plausible interpretation because the idea of interpretation because the idea of interpretation because the idea of Truman being in italics so wrong on this Truman being in italics so wrong on this Truman being in italics so wrong on this matter feels fantastical on the face of matter feels fantastical on the face of matter feels fantastical on the face of it." But as you point out, stuff like it." But as you point out, stuff like it." But as you point out, stuff like this actually happens more often than we this actually happens more often than we this actually happens more often than we might think. How I'm trying to put might think. How I'm trying to put might think. How I'm trying to put myself in an empathetic myself in an empathetic myself in an empathetic sort of situation here with Truman and sort of situation here with Truman and sort of situation here with Truman and try to imagine how it must have felt to try to imagine how it must have felt to try to imagine how it must have felt to him if he did entirely misunderstood his him if he did entirely misunderstood his him if he did entirely misunderstood his choice of cities here. When he got the choice of cities here. When he got the choice of cities here. When he got the casualty reports back, I mean, what is casualty reports back, I mean, what is casualty reports back, I mean, what is the moment of the light bulb going on the moment of the light bulb going on the moment of the light bulb going on over his head when he realizes what's over his head when he realizes what's over his head when he realizes what's happened here?

happened here? happened here? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> So it >> So it >> So it By August 8th, 1945, he 100% knows that By August 8th, 1945, he 100% knows that By August 8th, 1945, he 100% knows that it's a city. it's a city. it's a city. And that's the first day that you have And that's the first day that you have And that's the first day that you have any reports from the Japanese that any reports from the Japanese that any reports from the Japanese that mention it being a city or casualties or mention it being a city or casualties or mention it being a city or casualties or anything like that. It's also the first anything like that. It's also the first anything like that. It's also the first intelligence they have over what intelligence they have over what intelligence they have over what happened happened happened to the target. They have the first to the target. They have the first to the target. They have the first photographs cuz it took them photographs cuz it took them photographs cuz it took them um um um 2 days for the smoke from the fires to 2 days for the smoke from the fires to 2 days for the smoke from the fires to dissipate to the point where they could dissipate to the point where they could dissipate to the point where they could get a good picture of Hiroshima. And we get a good picture of Hiroshima. And we get a good picture of Hiroshima. And we know that on that morning um [snorts] know that on that morning um [snorts] know that on that morning um [snorts] Stimson actually goes to Truman and Stimson actually goes to Truman and Stimson actually goes to Truman and shows him shows him shows him uh uh a report on the damage to uh uh a report on the damage to uh uh a report on the damage to Hiroshima Hiroshima Hiroshima and it's clearly a city. Um what is and it's clearly a city. Um what is and it's clearly a city. Um what is Truman thinking? Uh Truman thinking? Uh Truman thinking? Uh one can only guess. He is at this time one can only guess. He is at this time one can only guess. He is at this time reporting to people that he is suffering reporting to people that he is suffering reporting to people that he is suffering from terrible headaches and difficulty from terrible headaches and difficulty from terrible headaches and difficulty sleeping and other things like this. sleeping and other things like this. sleeping and other things like this. Um he There's a picture of him getting Um he There's a picture of him getting Um he There's a picture of him getting this report from from Stimson because it this report from from Stimson because it this report from from Stimson because it was the press was there. And he's was the press was there. And he's was the press was there. And he's smiling, but I don't know. Maybe it's my smiling, but I don't know. Maybe it's my smiling, but I don't know. Maybe it's my my wanting to read into a photo. Behind my wanting to read into a photo. Behind my wanting to read into a photo. Behind his eyes, it doesn't look like a happy his eyes, it doesn't look like a happy his eyes, it doesn't look like a happy person. Um you can look at them very I person. Um you can look at them very I person. Um you can look at them very I On my website, I posted this photo among On my website, I posted this photo among On my website, I posted this photo among others. And you can you can take a look others. And you can you can take a look others. And you can you can take a look and judge for yourself. But I I think and judge for yourself. But I I think and judge for yourself. But I I think Truman would be quite disturbed. I mean, Truman would be quite disturbed. I mean, Truman would be quite disturbed. I mean, Truman is not Truman is not Truman is not thrilled at the idea of killing, as he thrilled at the idea of killing, as he thrilled at the idea of killing, as he put it, women and children. This is the put it, women and children. This is the put it, women and children. This is the the the code the the code the the code It's It's like a It's It's like a It's It's like a Sometimes these are called Trumanisms,

Sometimes these are called Trumanisms, Sometimes these are called Trumanisms, but they're like repetitive phrases that but they're like repetitive phrases that but they're like repetitive phrases that is Truman's way of always talking about is Truman's way of always talking about is Truman's way of always talking about noncombatants to say women and children. noncombatants to say women and children. noncombatants to say women and children. Does this throughout his whole life and Does this throughout his whole life and Does this throughout his whole life and career. Um career. Um career. Um Now you might ask, Now you might ask, Now you might ask, "Well, what about Nagasaki?" This August "Well, what about Nagasaki?" This August "Well, what about Nagasaki?" This August 8th, Nagasaki's August 9th. If he 8th, Nagasaki's August 9th. If he 8th, Nagasaki's August 9th. If he doesn't want to bomb cities, why does he doesn't want to bomb cities, why does he doesn't want to bomb cities, why does he approve of the bombing of Nagasaki? And approve of the bombing of Nagasaki? And approve of the bombing of Nagasaki? And I have found zero evidence that Truman I have found zero evidence that Truman I have found zero evidence that Truman knew that there was a second bomb about knew that there was a second bomb about knew that there was a second bomb about to be used. And in fact, while he's to be used. And in fact, while he's to be used. And in fact, while he's getting his briefing from Stimson, the getting his briefing from Stimson, the getting his briefing from Stimson, the plane is starting to take off plane is starting to take off plane is starting to take off in in from Tinian because of all the in in from Tinian because of all the in in from Tinian because of all the time zones and all of that kind of time zones and all of that kind of time zones and all of that kind of stuff. Um but, you know, with the first stuff. Um but, you know, with the first stuff. Um but, you know, with the first bomb, Truman was told right before it bomb, Truman was told right before it bomb, Truman was told right before it was going to be used. He was very was going to be used. He was very was going to be used. He was very interested in the schedule. He uh He interested in the schedule. He uh He interested in the schedule. He uh He himself always referred to it as just himself always referred to it as just himself always referred to it as just the atomic bomb. And when it happens the atomic bomb. And when it happens the atomic bomb. And when it happens when it is used, the actual strike when it is used, the actual strike when it is used, the actual strike order, which I'm not sure Truman even order, which I'm not sure Truman even order, which I'm not sure Truman even actually saw, actually saw, actually saw, uh uh was approved by Stimson uh and uh uh was approved by Stimson uh and uh uh was approved by Stimson uh and Marshall. Marshall. Marshall. Basically describes in detail how the Basically describes in detail how the Basically describes in detail how the first bomb will be used, but then says first bomb will be used, but then says first bomb will be used, but then says you can keep dropping bombs as soon as you can keep dropping bombs as soon as you can keep dropping bombs as soon as they're available.

they're available. they're available. Uh Uh Uh uh uh uh It's not clear to me at all that that It's not clear to me at all that that It's not clear to me at all that that Truman would have even remembered. He Truman would have even remembered. He Truman would have even remembered. He would have been told at least once early would have been told at least once early would have been told at least once early on that they were planning to have two on that they were planning to have two on that they were planning to have two bombs ready by early August. But the one bombs ready by early August. But the one bombs ready by early August. But the one time he asked about the schedule of time he asked about the schedule of time he asked about the schedule of bombings at Potsdam, bombings at Potsdam, bombings at Potsdam, he was read a um a telegram, which we he was read a um a telegram, which we he was read a um a telegram, which we have, which says that the first one of have, which says that the first one of have, which says that the first one of the tested type will be ready around the the tested type will be ready around the the tested type will be ready around the first of August, and then the next one first of August, and then the next one first of August, and then the next one uh will be ready, you know, a week or so uh will be ready, you know, a week or so uh will be ready, you know, a week or so later. And later. And later. And um um um that is uh or even over a week later. that is uh or even over a week later. that is uh or even over a week later. And that sounds accurate. And that sounds accurate. And that sounds accurate. Uh unless you if But there's two types Uh unless you if But there's two types Uh unless you if But there's two types of bombs. There was the tested and the of bombs. There was the tested and the of bombs. There was the tested and the untested. And at no point did they untested. And at no point did they untested. And at no point did they clarify, "By the way, there's an clarify, "By the way, there's an clarify, "By the way, there's an untested type of bomb that will also be untested type of bomb that will also be untested type of bomb that will also be ready by August 1st." So the the the ready by August 1st." So the the the ready by August 1st." So the the the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bombs are Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bombs are Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bombs are different bombs. Um I don't think Truman different bombs. Um I don't think Truman different bombs. Um I don't think Truman caught that. And again, being caught that. And again, being caught that. And again, being sympathetic with him, he's like sympathetic with him, he's like sympathetic with him, he's like negotiating with Stalin. He's got other negotiating with Stalin. He's got other negotiating with Stalin. He's got other things on his plate. Um I'm not sure things on his plate. Um I'm not sure things on his plate. Um I'm not sure he's catching these little tiny details, he's catching these little tiny details, he's catching these little tiny details, which frankly would confuse most people which frankly would confuse most people which frankly would confuse most people today today today um who only knew a little bit about um who only knew a little bit about um who only knew a little bit about atomic bombings and things like that. So atomic bombings and things like that. So atomic bombings and things like that. So what What happens? Nagasaki gets what What happens? Nagasaki gets what What happens? Nagasaki gets the bomb gets attacked. On August 10th, the bomb gets attacked. On August 10th, the bomb gets attacked. On August 10th, Truman tells his cabinet that he has Truman tells his cabinet that he has Truman tells his cabinet that he has stopped ordered the atomic bombings to stopped ordered the atomic bombings to stopped ordered the atomic bombings to be stopped. And it's on the basis of the be stopped. And it's on the basis of the be stopped. And it's on the basis of the women and children. And he tells them he

women and children. And he tells them he women and children. And he tells them he can't stand the thought of killing all can't stand the thought of killing all can't stand the thought of killing all those kids. And so this is again, if I'm those kids. And so this is again, if I'm those kids. And so this is again, if I'm reading into his psychology, and again, reading into his psychology, and again, reading into his psychology, and again, this is an an impossible job. I We we this is an an impossible job. I We we this is an an impossible job. I We we have to just acknowledge that. But if have to just acknowledge that. But if have to just acknowledge that. But if I'm trying to get inside his head, I see I'm trying to get inside his head, I see I'm trying to get inside his head, I see a person who realizes that he is not in a person who realizes that he is not in a person who realizes that he is not in in control of this thing at all and in control of this thing at all and in control of this thing at all and seizes that control back. seizes that control back. seizes that control back. And fascinating to a modern person in And fascinating to a modern person in And fascinating to a modern person in cold blood to look back and note that cold blood to look back and note that cold blood to look back and note that here's a man who doesn't want to kill here's a man who doesn't want to kill here's a man who doesn't want to kill any more women and children, but the any more women and children, but the any more women and children, but the firebombings continue after the Nagasaki firebombings continue after the Nagasaki firebombings continue after the Nagasaki attacks. The The The contradictions in attacks. The The The contradictions in attacks. The The The contradictions in this whole thing are are mind-spinning. this whole thing are are mind-spinning. this whole thing are are mind-spinning. I think My sense about the firebombing I think My sense about the firebombing I think My sense about the firebombing in general is that Truman does not feel in general is that Truman does not feel in general is that Truman does not feel responsible for those in the same way he responsible for those in the same way he responsible for those in the same way he does the atomic bombing. And we could does the atomic bombing. And we could does the atomic bombing. And we could debate whether he should feel debate whether he should feel debate whether he should feel responsible for those, responsible for those, responsible for those, but my sense is that he doesn't. And but my sense is that he doesn't. And but my sense is that he doesn't. And that's an interesting distinction. It that's an interesting distinction. It that's an interesting distinction. It And maybe it's the distinction, as we And maybe it's the distinction, as we And maybe it's the distinction, as we are you were saying earlier, between, are you were saying earlier, between, are you were saying earlier, between, you know, what's already been happening.

you know, what's already been happening. you know, what's already been happening. The firebombings, of course, started The firebombings, of course, started The firebombings, of course, started under Roosevelt, not under Truman. Um under Roosevelt, not under Truman. Um under Roosevelt, not under Truman. Um And also the sense that, "Sure, that's And also the sense that, "Sure, that's And also the sense that, "Sure, that's an area that we count as the military's an area that we count as the military's an area that we count as the military's prerogative." prerogative." prerogative." But the atomic bombing to him does feel But the atomic bombing to him does feel But the atomic bombing to him does feel like something special. And again, we like something special. And again, we like something special. And again, we could say, "Well, could say, "Well, could say, "Well, is it that special? Is it different? Is is it that special? Is it different? Is is it that special? Is it different? Is it just a very effective way to do it just a very effective way to do it just a very effective way to do firebombing?" I think Truman's own firebombing?" I think Truman's own firebombing?" I think Truman's own writing makes it clear again and again writing makes it clear again and again writing makes it clear again and again that he 100% thinks the atomic bomb, that he 100% thinks the atomic bomb, that he 100% thinks the atomic bomb, even from the beginning, even before even from the beginning, even before even from the beginning, even before it's used, is special. I mean, he he it's used, is special. I mean, he he it's used, is special. I mean, he he writes about it in at at Potsdam as writes about it in at at Potsdam as writes about it in at at Potsdam as being, you know, maybe the end of the being, you know, maybe the end of the being, you know, maybe the end of the world that was prophesied in the Bible. world that was prophesied in the Bible. world that was prophesied in the Bible. Maybe this is the most terrible Maybe this is the most terrible Maybe this is the most terrible invention in the history of mankind. Um invention in the history of mankind. Um invention in the history of mankind. Um and certainly even by the time he leaves and certainly even by the time he leaves and certainly even by the time he leaves office in 1953, he gets asked again, office in 1953, he gets asked again, office in 1953, he gets asked again, "Oh, is it really so bad?" And he's And "Oh, is it really so bad?" And he's And "Oh, is it really so bad?" And he's And that's where the the quote about it it's that's where the the quote about it it's that's where the the quote about it it's slaughtering uh slaughtering uh slaughtering uh um civilians comes from, where he just um civilians comes from, where he just um civilians comes from, where he just says, "I don't think you get it. This says, "I don't think you get it. This says, "I don't think you get it. This thing is worse. It's even worse than thing is worse. It's even worse than thing is worse. It's even worse than biological and chemical warfare. The biological and chemical warfare. The biological and chemical warfare. The atomic bomb is like the worst weapon atomic bomb is like the worst weapon atomic bomb is like the worst weapon ever made." Which That's a very strong ever made." Which That's a very strong ever made." Which That's a very strong sentiment. Again, we could disagree with sentiment. Again, we could disagree with sentiment. Again, we could disagree with Truman, but I think the important thing Truman, but I think the important thing Truman, but I think the important thing historically is to say, "Oh, he he historically is to say, "Oh, he he historically is to say, "Oh, he he really seems to believe this."

really seems to believe this." really seems to believe this." You know, it's interesting, too. You You know, it's interesting, too. You You know, it's interesting, too. You have sort of a I would call it a have sort of a I would call it a have sort of a I would call it a hardcore history uh point that you make hardcore history uh point that you make hardcore history uh point that you make when you talk about the functional when you talk about the functional when you talk about the functional difference a person would have difference a person would have difference a person would have experienced on the ground between experienced on the ground between experienced on the ground between something like a firebombing or the something like a firebombing or the something like a firebombing or the bombing of Dresden or Hamburg or bombing of Dresden or Hamburg or bombing of Dresden or Hamburg or anything like that that went on in anything like that that went on in anything like that that went on in Europe and the instantaneous change in Europe and the instantaneous change in Europe and the instantaneous change in in your world that happens when the in your world that happens when the in your world that happens when the atomic bomb is dropped. And you had atomic bomb is dropped. And you had atomic bomb is dropped. And you had written that for someone on the ground, written that for someone on the ground, written that for someone on the ground, all of this, meaning the the bombing and all of this, meaning the the bombing and all of this, meaning the the bombing and the aftermath, would have happened in an the aftermath, would have happened in an the aftermath, would have happened in an instant. A normal morning immediately instant. A normal morning immediately instant. A normal morning immediately transformed into hell on Earth. And then transformed into hell on Earth. And then transformed into hell on Earth. And then you write, quote, "The aftermath of the you write, quote, "The aftermath of the you write, quote, "The aftermath of the firebombings and the atomic bombings firebombings and the atomic bombings firebombings and the atomic bombings looked similar, but there were key looked similar, but there were key looked similar, but there were key differences in the experiences differences in the experiences differences in the experiences themselves. The firebombings took hours themselves. The firebombings took hours themselves. The firebombings took hours to unfold, and the threat of hundreds of to unfold, and the threat of hundreds of to unfold, and the threat of hundreds of B-29s could be heard from a great B-29s could be heard from a great B-29s could be heard from a great distance. The atomic bomb was a weapon distance. The atomic bomb was a weapon distance. The atomic bomb was a weapon of suddenness and of tremendous, almost of suddenness and of tremendous, almost of suddenness and of tremendous, almost instant destruction, followed up by the instant destruction, followed up by the instant destruction, followed up by the firestorm that engulfed the city core firestorm that engulfed the city core firestorm that engulfed the city core and consumed it block by block." End and consumed it block by block." End and consumed it block by block." End quote. But what So it is It's like quote. But what So it is It's like quote. But what So it is It's like almost like I always thought that in almost like I always thought that in almost like I always thought that in Kurt Vonnegut's description of of the of Kurt Vonnegut's description of of the of Kurt Vonnegut's description of of the of the Dresden bombings, he talks about the Dresden bombings, he talks about the Dresden bombings, he talks about going into a bomb shelter and the city's going into a bomb shelter and the city's going into a bomb shelter and the city's intact and coming out of the bomb intact and coming out of the bomb intact and coming out of the bomb shelter and it's all gone. But that's shelter and it's all gone. But that's shelter and it's all gone. But that's the moment that anyone who lives through the moment that anyone who lives through the moment that anyone who lives through one of these atomic bombings one of these atomic bombings one of these atomic bombings experiences, not to mention, of course, experiences, not to mention, of course, experiences, not to mention, of course, the um the thermonuclear superweapons the um the thermonuclear superweapons the um the thermonuclear superweapons that have never been used in war. Uh you that have never been used in war. Uh you that have never been used in war. Uh you make it clear that the one thing that make it clear that the one thing that make it clear that the one thing that Truman seems to have learned from all of Truman seems to have learned from all of Truman seems to have learned from all of this is that, as he put it, some dashing

this is that, as he put it, some dashing this is that, as he put it, some dashing lieutenant colonel somewhere shouldn't lieutenant colonel somewhere shouldn't lieutenant colonel somewhere shouldn't have the power to order an attack here. have the power to order an attack here. have the power to order an attack here. How does this play into the fact that How does this play into the fact that How does this play into the fact that we've evolved into a a wartime situation we've evolved into a a wartime situation we've evolved into a a wartime situation here where all of this now is wrapped up here where all of this now is wrapped up here where all of this now is wrapped up in the hands of our president as opposed in the hands of our president as opposed in the hands of our president as opposed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff or a bunch to the Joint Chiefs of Staff or a bunch to the Joint Chiefs of Staff or a bunch of It's not a group decision, and that's of It's not a group decision, and that's of It's not a group decision, and that's Truman's um Truman's uh decision that he Truman's um Truman's uh decision that he Truman's um Truman's uh decision that he made, right? made, right? made, right? Right. That's part of his his legacy. Right. That's part of his his legacy. Right. That's part of his his legacy. He, starting the day after Nagasaki, He, starting the day after Nagasaki, He, starting the day after Nagasaki, centralizes centralizes centralizes any atomic use decisions any atomic use decisions any atomic use decisions in himself, basically. In him, the in himself, basically. In him, the in himself, basically. In him, the president. And president. And president. And at first, that's just sort of the at first, that's just sort of the at first, that's just sort of the arrangement. It eventually gets arrangement. It eventually gets arrangement. It eventually gets articulated as policy, though I think articulated as policy, though I think articulated as policy, though I think later than most people realize. It's not later than most people realize. It's not later than most people realize. It's not really official US policy. There's in really official US policy. There's in really official US policy. There's in fact no official US policy about who fact no official US policy about who fact no official US policy about who decides who uses an atomic bomb until decides who uses an atomic bomb until decides who uses an atomic bomb until 1948. 1948. 1948. And even then, And even then, And even then, it's like one sentence. It's a sentence it's like one sentence. It's a sentence it's like one sentence. It's a sentence that says, "Well, it's up to the that says, "Well, it's up to the that says, "Well, it's up to the president." Which which There were other president." Which which There were other president." Which which There were other options floated at the time, but that's options floated at the time, but that's options floated at the time, but that's ultimately what happened. Um ultimately what happened. Um ultimately what happened. Um uh uh uh I think the key thing here is that I think the key thing here is that I think the key thing here is that Truman's centralization of the of the Truman's centralization of the of the Truman's centralization of the of the use power in himself use power in himself use power in himself Today we talk about that centralization Today we talk about that centralization Today we talk about that centralization as as as um being justified by either the um being justified by either the um being justified by either the Constitution or by the strategy. Well, Constitution or by the strategy. Well, Constitution or by the strategy. Well, you have to make a decision very you have to make a decision very you have to make a decision very quickly. You know, we have lots of quickly. You know, we have lots of quickly. You know, we have lots of reasons for saying this is how it ought reasons for saying this is how it ought reasons for saying this is how it ought to be. Um I think it's very clear that

to be. Um I think it's very clear that to be. Um I think it's very clear that the reason Truman does that is he does the reason Truman does that is he does the reason Truman does that is he does not trust the military. And he doesn't not trust the military. And he doesn't not trust the military. And he doesn't trust anybody. He trusts himself. And he trust anybody. He trusts himself. And he trust anybody. He trusts himself. And he does not want to use these weapons does not want to use these weapons does not want to use these weapons again. Again, this is one of his other again. Again, this is one of his other again. Again, this is one of his other things he repeats over the whole course things he repeats over the whole course things he repeats over the whole course of his administration that his whole of his administration that his whole of his administration that his whole goal goal goal is to never use nuclear weapons again. is to never use nuclear weapons again. is to never use nuclear weapons again. That that's the goal. Which again is is That that's the goal. Which again is is That that's the goal. Which again is is not the standard version of Truman that not the standard version of Truman that not the standard version of Truman that I think most people have in their head I think most people have in their head I think most people have in their head as a guy who's almost above everything as a guy who's almost above everything as a guy who's almost above everything else committed to the idea of not using else committed to the idea of not using else committed to the idea of not using nuclear weapons. There's nuclear weapons. There's nuclear weapons. There's Again, there's an obvious paradox here. Again, there's an obvious paradox here. Again, there's an obvious paradox here. The book tries to explain what that is. The book tries to explain what that is. The book tries to explain what that is. The result The resolution of it. But uh The result The resolution of it. But uh The result The resolution of it. But uh it's ultimately the the presidential it's ultimately the the presidential it's ultimately the the presidential power to use nuclear weapons. The power to use nuclear weapons. The power to use nuclear weapons. The exclusive presidential power to use exclusive presidential power to use exclusive presidential power to use nuclear weapons in the United States was nuclear weapons in the United States was nuclear weapons in the United States was created so that they wouldn't get used. created so that they wouldn't get used. created so that they wouldn't get used. And that's I think surprising, right? And that's I think surprising, right? And that's I think surprising, right? That's certainly not the way it's talked That's certainly not the way it's talked That's certainly not the way it's talked about today. [laughter] Um today and and about today. [laughter] Um today and and about today. [laughter] Um today and and in previous administrations, you know, in previous administrations, you know, in previous administrations, you know, there's there's discussion about, well, there's there's discussion about, well, there's there's discussion about, well, could the military stop the president could the military stop the president could the military stop the president from being from using the bomb if he from being from using the bomb if he from being from using the bomb if he wanted to? And uh that's exactly the wanted to? And uh that's exactly the wanted to? And uh that's exactly the flip of the situation in the 1940s.

flip of the situation in the 1940s. flip of the situation in the 1940s. So, I see it as influencing the closest So, I see it as influencing the closest So, I see it as influencing the closest time we ever came to nuclear war time we ever came to nuclear war time we ever came to nuclear war famously. I mean, maybe not, but but famously. I mean, maybe not, but but famously. I mean, maybe not, but but famously the Cuban Missile Crisis and famously the Cuban Missile Crisis and famously the Cuban Missile Crisis and Kennedy's problems with what he called Kennedy's problems with what he called Kennedy's problems with what he called the brass hats and everything. And you the brass hats and everything. And you the brass hats and everything. And you know, when we look back at history, you know, when we look back at history, you know, when we look back at history, you think it's a long time between the think it's a long time between the think it's a long time between the Truman administration and Kennedy Truman administration and Kennedy Truman administration and Kennedy administration, but we're talking about, administration, but we're talking about, administration, but we're talking about, you know, a a dozen years or something you know, a a dozen years or something you know, a a dozen years or something like that. And and with a with a general like that. And and with a with a general like that. And and with a with a general in between them as president, so maybe in between them as president, so maybe in between them as president, so maybe an unusual figure uh between the two. an unusual figure uh between the two. an unusual figure uh between the two. So, the next civilian president you get So, the next civilian president you get So, the next civilian president you get in there is by comparison with his in there is by comparison with his in there is by comparison with his August Second World War cabinet appears to be a kid, right? A to be a kid, right? A a low-level officer in the Second World a low-level officer in the Second World a low-level officer in the Second World War who doesn't know anything and is up War who doesn't know anything and is up War who doesn't know anything and is up against all these people that were against all these people that were against all these people that were actually dropping bombs on Japan. And actually dropping bombs on Japan. And actually dropping bombs on Japan. And yet yet yet that's really, isn't it, sort of the that's really, isn't it, sort of the that's really, isn't it, sort of the first test of Truman's centralization of first test of Truman's centralization of first test of Truman's centralization of the power of the bombs in the hands of the power of the bombs in the hands of the power of the bombs in the hands of civilians, even though Eisenhower had civilians, even though Eisenhower had civilians, even though Eisenhower had that power, he's sort of only a pseudo that power, he's sort of only a pseudo that power, he's sort of only a pseudo civilian. Um How much did what Truman civilian. Um How much did what Truman civilian. Um How much did what Truman sort of tried to make standard operating sort of tried to make standard operating sort of tried to make standard operating procedure, civilian control of these procedure, civilian control of these procedure, civilian control of these bombs and and what have you? How much of bombs and and what have you? How much of bombs and and what have you? How much of that impacted how the Cuban Missile that impacted how the Cuban Missile that impacted how the Cuban Missile Crisis unfolded and and those sorts of Crisis unfolded and and those sorts of Crisis unfolded and and those sorts of concerns that came to the fore again concerns that came to the fore again concerns that came to the fore again then?

then? then? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, so what happens in under Truman is he so what happens in under Truman is he so what happens in under Truman is he almost totally centralizes everything almost totally centralizes everything almost totally centralizes everything with himself, right? Cuz he does not with himself, right? Cuz he does not with himself, right? Cuz he does not trust the military. trust the military. trust the military. Under Eisenhower, things eventually Under Eisenhower, things eventually Under Eisenhower, things eventually flip. Eisenhower actually maintains flip. Eisenhower actually maintains flip. Eisenhower actually maintains initially a lot of Truman's policies, initially a lot of Truman's policies, initially a lot of Truman's policies, but he eventually, for a variety of but he eventually, for a variety of but he eventually, for a variety of reasons, goes entirely the other reasons, goes entirely the other reasons, goes entirely the other direction. So, the military get access direction. So, the military get access direction. So, the military get access to these weapons. Under Under Truman, to these weapons. Under Under Truman, to these weapons. Under Under Truman, after World War II, the military never after World War II, the military never after World War II, the military never have access to more than nine nuclear have access to more than nine nuclear have access to more than nine nuclear weapons out of hundreds. And they only weapons out of hundreds. And they only weapons out of hundreds. And they only get that access in 1951, and it's a get that access in 1951, and it's a get that access in 1951, and it's a whole complicated story about why they whole complicated story about why they whole complicated story about why they get nine in 1951. Um and it's not to use get nine in 1951. Um and it's not to use get nine in 1951. Um and it's not to use them. It's it's it's it's for political them. It's it's it's it's for political them. It's it's it's it's for political reasons. Um Under Eisenhower, they end reasons. Um Under Eisenhower, they end reasons. Um Under Eisenhower, they end up with 90% of the stockpile. And some up with 90% of the stockpile. And some up with 90% of the stockpile. And some of this is because the the the weapons of this is because the the the weapons of this is because the the the weapons change. It's it's not possible to keep change. It's it's not possible to keep change. It's it's not possible to keep them sort of separated into their them sort of separated into their them sort of separated into their nuclear and their non-nuclear nuclear and their non-nuclear nuclear and their non-nuclear components, which is what they did in components, which is what they did in components, which is what they did in the '40s. Um and also the situation the '40s. Um and also the situation the '40s. Um and also the situation changes. The Soviet Union has hundreds changes. The Soviet Union has hundreds changes. The Soviet Union has hundreds of weapons. And so now they're very of weapons. And so now they're very of weapons. And so now they're very worried about being attacked. And they worried about being attacked. And they worried about being attacked. And they the the the fear of Eisenhower is not the the the fear of Eisenhower is not the the the fear of Eisenhower is not the military will start war without the military will start war without the military will start war without permission. The fear is we'll get caught permission. The fear is we'll get caught permission. The fear is we'll get caught with our pants down and we'll get with our pants down and we'll get with our pants down and we'll get destroyed by the Soviet Union. Um destroyed by the Soviet Union. Um destroyed by the Soviet Union. Um The result of all that is that in the By The result of all that is that in the By The result of all that is that in the By the end of the '50s, before Kennedy the end of the '50s, before Kennedy the end of the '50s, before Kennedy takes power, the military has the takes power, the military has the takes power, the military has the ability to wage nuclear war

ability to wage nuclear war ability to wage nuclear war one on a scale much bigger than it ever one on a scale much bigger than it ever one on a scale much bigger than it ever could in the '40s, but like without any could in the '40s, but like without any could in the '40s, but like without any involvement from the president. I mean, involvement from the president. I mean, involvement from the president. I mean, there's no locks on the weapons in the there's no locks on the weapons in the there's no locks on the weapons in the '50s. There's no codes or anything like '50s. There's no codes or anything like '50s. There's no codes or anything like that. They just have them. They could that. They just have them. They could that. They just have them. They could use them. Um use them. Um use them. Um and uh and uh and uh and they're ready to use them. And and they're ready to use them. And and they're ready to use them. And they're very clear they're very clear they're very clear at times and they even in the '40s they at times and they even in the '40s they at times and they even in the '40s they do this a little bit. People like LeMay, do this a little bit. People like LeMay, do this a little bit. People like LeMay, they say, "Well, you know, if we had to they say, "Well, you know, if we had to they say, "Well, you know, if we had to use them and the president was in the use them and the president was in the use them and the president was in the way, right? We're not going to sit out way, right? We're not going to sit out way, right? We're not going to sit out this fight, right? We If if if it looks this fight, right? We If if if it looks this fight, right? We If if if it looks like like like World War is going down, we aren't going World War is going down, we aren't going World War is going down, we aren't going to let some political order from to let some political order from to let some political order from Washington, even the great General Washington, even the great General Washington, even the great General Eisenhower, stand in our way." So, Eisenhower, stand in our way." So, Eisenhower, stand in our way." So, that's the situation when like Kennedy that's the situation when like Kennedy that's the situation when like Kennedy and his people take over. And they are and his people take over. And they are and his people take over. And they are horrified by this. horrified by this. horrified by this. They don't realize that the nuclear war They don't realize that the nuclear war They don't realize that the nuclear war plan is much larger than they have plan is much larger than they have plan is much larger than they have really been told. It's all being All war really been told. It's all being All war really been told. It's all being All war planning is being done in the Pentagon. planning is being done in the Pentagon. planning is being done in the Pentagon. It is not being shared with the White It is not being shared with the White It is not being shared with the White House. Um they do try to put some House. Um they do try to put some House. Um they do try to put some barriers in place. They're the ones who barriers in place. They're the ones who barriers in place. They're the ones who add locks to all weapons that are add locks to all weapons that are add locks to all weapons that are overseas and eventually domestic ones.

overseas and eventually domestic ones. overseas and eventually domestic ones. Uh Uh Uh the permissive action links. Um they're the permissive action links. Um they're the permissive action links. Um they're the ones who try, not completely the ones who try, not completely the ones who try, not completely successfully, to centralize war planning successfully, to centralize war planning successfully, to centralize war planning within the executive branch. Like they within the executive branch. Like they within the executive branch. Like they don't let the Joint Chiefs of Staff just don't let the Joint Chiefs of Staff just don't let the Joint Chiefs of Staff just make their own war plans without input make their own war plans without input make their own war plans without input from the White House. Um they they are from the White House. Um they they are from the White House. Um they they are the ones who start to push for like the ones who start to push for like the ones who start to push for like flexibility. Like flexibility. Like flexibility. Like the early war plans of the '50s and the early war plans of the '50s and the early war plans of the '50s and early '60s, you couldn't not nuke China early '60s, you couldn't not nuke China early '60s, you couldn't not nuke China even if China was not part of the war even if China was not part of the war even if China was not part of the war because the people who made those plans because the people who made those plans because the people who made those plans basically literally said, "Are you basically literally said, "Are you basically literally said, "Are you telling me you would have World War and telling me you would have World War and telling me you would have World War and let a giant communist power survive? No. let a giant communist power survive? No. let a giant communist power survive? No. Like this is an ideological war." Which Like this is an ideological war." Which Like this is an ideological war." Which may not be what your politicians want to may not be what your politicians want to may not be what your politicians want to happen, but they're not in the loop. Um happen, but they're not in the loop. Um happen, but they're not in the loop. Um This is covered by the way very well Dan This is covered by the way very well Dan This is covered by the way very well Dan Ellsberg's book uh The Doomsday Machine. Ellsberg's book uh The Doomsday Machine. Ellsberg's book uh The Doomsday Machine. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> about this period. And he was personally >> about this period. And he was personally >> about this period. And he was personally involved in in some of these discussions involved in in some of these discussions involved in in some of these discussions and things like this. It's really and things like this. It's really and things like this. It's really interesting. Um but So, like that's kind interesting. Um but So, like that's kind interesting. Um but So, like that's kind of the situation. So, by the time of the of the situation. So, by the time of the of the situation. So, by the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Cuban Missile Crisis, Cuban Missile Crisis, yes, Kennedy 100% has been trying to yes, Kennedy 100% has been trying to yes, Kennedy 100% has been trying to basically basically basically convince both Khrushchev and his own convince both Khrushchev and his own convince both Khrushchev and his own generals that he's actually a tough guy generals that he's actually a tough guy generals that he's actually a tough guy and, you know, should not be and, you know, should not be and, you know, should not be underestimated. Um he also is very well underestimated. Um he also is very well underestimated. Um he also is very well aware that despite his his efforts, if aware that despite his his efforts, if aware that despite his his efforts, if the military blunders into nuclear war, the military blunders into nuclear war, the military blunders into nuclear war, there isn't a whole lot that Kennedy there isn't a whole lot that Kennedy there isn't a whole lot that Kennedy himself can probably do to stop it. Um himself can probably do to stop it. Um himself can probably do to stop it. Um it's not the kind of thing where if he it's not the kind of thing where if he it's not the kind of thing where if he doesn't give his positive order, they're doesn't give his positive order, they're doesn't give his positive order, they're all going to just stand there. They They all going to just stand there. They They all going to just stand there. They They are They have their own uh uh

are They have their own uh uh are They have their own uh uh people running things and they do not people running things and they do not people running things and they do not 100% trust Kennedy and and that's an 100% trust Kennedy and and that's an 100% trust Kennedy and and that's an issue. It's one of the reasons that that issue. It's one of the reasons that that issue. It's one of the reasons that that whole crisis is so dangerous is [snorts] whole crisis is so dangerous is [snorts] whole crisis is so dangerous is [snorts] that that that uh uh uh Kennedy Kennedy Kennedy recognizes only after it's sort of recognizes only after it's sort of recognizes only after it's sort of been going on for a little while that been going on for a little while that been going on for a little while that there are there are a lot of pathways to there are there are a lot of pathways to there are there are a lot of pathways to nuclear war and he doesn't have control nuclear war and he doesn't have control nuclear war and he doesn't have control over all of them. He cannot actually over all of them. He cannot actually over all of them. He cannot actually make the decision to avoid nuclear war make the decision to avoid nuclear war make the decision to avoid nuclear war under those conditions. What's crazy is under those conditions. What's crazy is under those conditions. What's crazy is when you look at all of the when you look at all of the when you look at all of the opportunities. I mean, the Cuban Missile opportunities. I mean, the Cuban Missile opportunities. I mean, the Cuban Missile Crisis obviously famous and maybe even Crisis obviously famous and maybe even Crisis obviously famous and maybe even oversited compared to, you know, Berlin oversited compared to, you know, Berlin oversited compared to, you know, Berlin Blockade, MacArthur wanting to to nuke Blockade, MacArthur wanting to to nuke Blockade, MacArthur wanting to to nuke the Chinese in Korea, the request at the Chinese in Korea, the request at the Chinese in Korea, the request at Dien Bien Phu by the French, the Vietnam Dien Bien Phu by the French, the Vietnam Dien Bien Phu by the French, the Vietnam War and everything else. Uh oh, and not War and everything else. Uh oh, and not War and everything else. Uh oh, and not to mention accidents and and and to mention accidents and and and to mention accidents and and and problems with uh false positives on problems with uh false positives on problems with uh false positives on radar and everything else. How much It radar and everything else. How much It radar and everything else. How much It seems to me that that that had things seems to me that that that had things seems to me that that that had things broken differently in the very early broken differently in the very early broken differently in the very early Truman eras. Had had Truman allowed the Truman eras. Had had Truman allowed the Truman eras. Had had Truman allowed the military to control these weapons, which military to control these weapons, which military to control these weapons, which as they were pointing out are just like as they were pointing out are just like as they were pointing out are just like weapons, right? We control all the other weapons, right? We control all the other weapons, right? We control all the other weapons, why not these? It seems to me weapons, why not these? It seems to me weapons, why not these? It seems to me some of those situations might have some of those situations might have some of those situations might have easily broken the other way. And if easily broken the other way. And if easily broken the other way. And if that's the case, can we suggest that that's the case, can we suggest that that's the case, can we suggest that Truman maybe centralizing this and being Truman maybe centralizing this and being Truman maybe centralizing this and being distrustful of the military, keeping distrustful of the military, keeping distrustful of the military, keeping these very unusual weapons may have these very unusual weapons may have these very unusual weapons may have likely been the reason that they weren't likely been the reason that they weren't likely been the reason that they weren't have more If I mean, if MacArthur have more If I mean, if MacArthur have more If I mean, if MacArthur controls the use of nuclear weapons on controls the use of nuclear weapons on controls the use of nuclear weapons on the ground in 1950-51,

the ground in 1950-51, the ground in 1950-51, I it seems to me they're likely used. I it seems to me they're likely used. I it seems to me they're likely used. So, so So, so So, so did the centralization of this in the did the centralization of this in the did the centralization of this in the hands of a single person who then has to hands of a single person who then has to hands of a single person who then has to live the rest of his life with knowing live the rest of his life with knowing live the rest of his life with knowing he made the decision to kill untold he made the decision to kill untold he made the decision to kill untold numbers of people. I mean, that's how numbers of people. I mean, that's how numbers of people. I mean, that's how Truman has to live with this, right? How Truman has to live with this, right? How Truman has to live with this, right? How much does that impact the fact that we much does that impact the fact that we much does that impact the fact that we haven't had a nuclear war since? haven't had a nuclear war since? haven't had a nuclear war since? Uh I think quite a lot. I think if you Uh I think quite a lot. I think if you Uh I think quite a lot. I think if you had somebody had somebody had somebody There are people you could imagine being There are people you could imagine being There are people you could imagine being in power in 1950-1951, in power in 1950-1951, in power in 1950-1951, including Eisenhower, uh including um including Eisenhower, uh including um including Eisenhower, uh including um Brian McMahon, who was one of the major Brian McMahon, who was one of the major Brian McMahon, who was one of the major Democratic politicians at the time who Democratic politicians at the time who Democratic politicians at the time who was was was definitely planning to run for definitely planning to run for definitely planning to run for presidency in '52, but he happened to presidency in '52, but he happened to presidency in '52, but he happened to die of cancer first. Um But these people die of cancer first. Um But these people die of cancer first. Um But these people who who did not have qualms about either who who did not have qualms about either who who did not have qualms about either giving the military weapons or using giving the military weapons or using giving the military weapons or using these weapons uh and in fact some of these weapons uh and in fact some of these weapons uh and in fact some of these people really disliked the idea these people really disliked the idea these people really disliked the idea that these weapons created unique moral that these weapons created unique moral that these weapons created unique moral hazards, especially in situations like hazards, especially in situations like hazards, especially in situations like the Korean War where the Korean War where the Korean War where they weren't they weren't they weren't the reason you aren't using them then is the reason you aren't using them then is the reason you aren't using them then is isn't because you think they're going to isn't because you think they're going to isn't because you think they're going to you're going to get nuked back. I mean, you're going to get nuked back. I mean, you're going to get nuked back. I mean, the Soviet Union has a tiny arsenal.

the Soviet Union has a tiny arsenal. the Soviet Union has a tiny arsenal. They can't really deliver them over They can't really deliver them over They can't really deliver them over great distances. They're not not using great distances. They're not not using great distances. They're not not using them because of deterrence. They're not them because of deterrence. They're not them because of deterrence. They're not using them uh for a variety of reasons, using them uh for a variety of reasons, using them uh for a variety of reasons, but one of them is that Truman has made but one of them is that Truman has made but one of them is that Truman has made it very clear that he's not interested it very clear that he's not interested it very clear that he's not interested in using these weapons. Um there were a in using these weapons. Um there were a in using these weapons. Um there were a contingent of people within the military contingent of people within the military contingent of people within the military who were trying to see and push the who were trying to see and push the who were trying to see and push the edges of well, maybe under certain edges of well, maybe under certain edges of well, maybe under certain circumstances. And and part of the circumstances. And and part of the circumstances. And and part of the reason they're doing this and they're reason they're doing this and they're reason they're doing this and they're explicit about this in in these explicit about this in in these explicit about this in in these classified hearings and things like that classified hearings and things like that classified hearings and things like that and some diary entries and things like and some diary entries and things like and some diary entries and things like this this this is that they're worried that there's is that they're worried that there's is that they're worried that there's this taboo this taboo this taboo being created. This idea that atomic being created. This idea that atomic being created. This idea that atomic bombs were not usable weapons because bombs were not usable weapons because bombs were not usable weapons because they are morally problematic. they are morally problematic. they are morally problematic. And the person who is the most And the person who is the most And the person who is the most important person important person important person >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> to advocate that point of view >> to advocate that point of view >> to advocate that point of view is President Truman and they know this. is President Truman and they know this. is President Truman and they know this. They're very clear about this at times They're very clear about this at times They're very clear about this at times that the president is the source. Like that the president is the source. Like that the president is the source. Like there's of course there's going to be there's of course there's going to be there's of course there's going to be you know you know you know people who are believe this in the people who are believe this in the people who are believe this in the common people and the Soviets are going common people and the Soviets are going common people and the Soviets are going to push that line as propaganda etc. But to push that line as propaganda etc. But to push that line as propaganda etc. But the president is the only one at that the president is the only one at that the president is the only one at that point in his administration who actually point in his administration who actually point in his administration who actually advocates this view. So, I think it's advocates this view. So, I think it's advocates this view. So, I think it's very important. There's been a lot of very important. There's been a lot of very important. There's been a lot of scholarship by largely political scholarship by largely political scholarship by largely political scientists scientists scientists over why nuclear weapons don't get used over why nuclear weapons don't get used over why nuclear weapons don't get used after World War II.

after World War II. after World War II. And one of the answers, some of it's And one of the answers, some of it's And one of the answers, some of it's things like deterrence and rational, you things like deterrence and rational, you things like deterrence and rational, you know, choices and things, but a big know, choices and things, but a big know, choices and things, but a big answer is this belief that you nuclear answer is this belief that you nuclear answer is this belief that you nuclear weapons are not something you should weapons are not something you should weapons are not something you should use. That there's a problem with using use. That there's a problem with using use. That there's a problem with using them and the bar for using them is much them and the bar for using them is much them and the bar for using them is much higher than it is for other weapons, higher than it is for other weapons, higher than it is for other weapons, especially in non-deterrent situations especially in non-deterrent situations especially in non-deterrent situations like the French at Dien Bien Phu or like the French at Dien Bien Phu or like the French at Dien Bien Phu or wherever where where using them you're wherever where where using them you're wherever where where using them you're not worried about getting attacked back not worried about getting attacked back not worried about getting attacked back with nuclear weapons per se. Um and if with nuclear weapons per se. Um and if with nuclear weapons per se. Um and if that's true, if that played any role at that's true, if that played any role at that's true, if that played any role at all, then all, then all, then I think having the first American I think having the first American I think having the first American president with nuclear weapons be one of president with nuclear weapons be one of president with nuclear weapons be one of the biggest subscribers to the taboo the biggest subscribers to the taboo the biggest subscribers to the taboo possible, that's got to have an impact, possible, that's got to have an impact, possible, that's got to have an impact, right? Um and so, you know, the irony of right? Um and so, you know, the irony of right? Um and so, you know, the irony of Harry Truman, I think, is that he is the Harry Truman, I think, is that he is the Harry Truman, I think, is that he is the only president who who who presided over only president who who who presided over only president who who who presided over the use of nuclear weapons in war, he the use of nuclear weapons in war, he the use of nuclear weapons in war, he may be one of the main reasons they may be one of the main reasons they may be one of the main reasons they don't get used again. don't get used again. don't get used again. You know, it's interesting and I'll I'll You know, it's interesting and I'll I'll You know, it's interesting and I'll I'll I'll make this the last question before I'll make this the last question before I'll make this the last question before asking you if you have any points that asking you if you have any points that asking you if you have any points that that I haven't already asked you, but that I haven't already asked you, but that I haven't already asked you, but you know, I grew up in an era where we you know, I grew up in an era where we you know, I grew up in an era where we were very aware of the sword of Damocles were very aware of the sword of Damocles were very aware of the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads. We did drills, hanging over our heads. We did drills, hanging over our heads. We did drills, all those kind of it was you know, there all those kind of it was you know, there all those kind of it was you know, there were movies, there were literature, were movies, there were literature, were movies, there were literature, everything sort of talked about this. We everything sort of talked about this. We everything sort of talked about this. We saw nuclear weapons on television being saw nuclear weapons on television being saw nuclear weapons on television being paraded down the streets of the Kremlin.

paraded down the streets of the Kremlin. paraded down the streets of the Kremlin. I mean, all these kinds of things. And I mean, all these kinds of things. And I mean, all these kinds of things. And then during the '90s when we sort of had then during the '90s when we sort of had then during the '90s when we sort of had our what did they call it the the the our what did they call it the the the our what did they call it the the the vacation or the break from history I vacation or the break from history I vacation or the break from history I think a generation sort of forgot that think a generation sort of forgot that think a generation sort of forgot that that sword of Damocles is still there that sword of Damocles is still there that sword of Damocles is still there and now we're reminded again. Annie and now we're reminded again. Annie and now we're reminded again. Annie Jacobsen's of course had a new book with Jacobsen's of course had a new book with Jacobsen's of course had a new book with nuclear war scenario. They're making a nuclear war scenario. They're making a nuclear war scenario. They're making a movie. Uh there's all kinds of good movie. Uh there's all kinds of good movie. Uh there's all kinds of good material including yours coming out material including yours coming out material including yours coming out here. Um what would we say then is the here. Um what would we say then is the here. Um what would we say then is the lesson from the era, the only era where lesson from the era, the only era where lesson from the era, the only era where these sorts of weapons have ever been these sorts of weapons have ever been these sorts of weapons have ever been employed against human beings now that employed against human beings now that employed against human beings now that we're being reminded that they're still we're being reminded that they're still we're being reminded that they're still out there, that it could, you know, her out there, that it could, you know, her out there, that it could, you know, her her book's a wonderful example of just her book's a wonderful example of just her book's a wonderful example of just how easily dominoes could start to how easily dominoes could start to how easily dominoes could start to tumble, decisions could go from you tumble, decisions could go from you tumble, decisions could go from you know, leaders pushing the envelope to know, leaders pushing the envelope to know, leaders pushing the envelope to being pulled by them. I mean, what is being pulled by them. I mean, what is being pulled by them. I mean, what is the lesson of something all the way back the lesson of something all the way back the lesson of something all the way back in 1945 for us in a sword of Damocles in 1945 for us in a sword of Damocles in 1945 for us in a sword of Damocles situation that we're realizing never has situation that we're realizing never has situation that we're realizing never has left us since then by what Truman did left us since then by what Truman did left us since then by what Truman did and the way he sort of took this and the way he sort of took this and the way he sort of took this concrete and created a new reality with concrete and created a new reality with concrete and created a new reality with it that hardened and that is still our it that hardened and that is still our it that hardened and that is still our reality today. What's the lesson of this reality today. What's the lesson of this reality today. What's the lesson of this book in terms of real world things in book in terms of real world things in book in terms of real world things in 2025?

I think it's really easy, especially I think it's really easy, especially when we talk about nuclear weapons when we talk about nuclear weapons when we talk about nuclear weapons to assume that they're sort of a big to assume that they're sort of a big to assume that they're sort of a big system system system that will lead to certain types of that will lead to certain types of that will lead to certain types of outcomes, right? And generally my outcomes, right? And generally my outcomes, right? And generally my experience is that a lot of people have experience is that a lot of people have experience is that a lot of people have a lot of faith in nuclear deterrence, a lot of faith in nuclear deterrence, a lot of faith in nuclear deterrence, right? Okay, we're we've got all of right? Okay, we're we've got all of right? Okay, we're we've got all of these weapons, we've got all of these these weapons, we've got all of these these weapons, we've got all of these self-interested rational actors out self-interested rational actors out self-interested rational actors out there. They won't use them because it's there. They won't use them because it's there. They won't use them because it's not in their interest to do so. not in their interest to do so. not in their interest to do so. And that sounds great assuming that they And that sounds great assuming that they And that sounds great assuming that they see it that way which of course see it that way which of course see it that way which of course they may or may not depending on the they may or may not depending on the they may or may not depending on the people. I think the point of my book is people. I think the point of my book is people. I think the point of my book is that it's easy for us to abstract away that it's easy for us to abstract away that it's easy for us to abstract away the the individuals. the the individuals. the the individuals. I think there have been trends in I think there have been trends in I think there have been trends in history which I support largely, you history which I support largely, you history which I support largely, you know, that there's been such a pushback know, that there's been such a pushback know, that there's been such a pushback against the idea of like great man against the idea of like great man against the idea of like great man history, the idea that individuals are history, the idea that individuals are history, the idea that individuals are the ones pushing the trajectory of the ones pushing the trajectory of the ones pushing the trajectory of history forward. And that's completely history forward. And that's completely history forward. And that's completely right and good. This is not about great right and good. This is not about great right and good. This is not about great man history. But on the the other side man history. But on the the other side man history. But on the the other side of that extreme is just like well, of that extreme is just like well, of that extreme is just like well, everything just kind of happens and uh everything just kind of happens and uh everything just kind of happens and uh there's forces that sort of things there's forces that sort of things there's forces that sort of things emerge from and it would happen one way emerge from and it would happen one way emerge from and it would happen one way or the other no matter what. Individuals or the other no matter what. Individuals or the other no matter what. Individuals don't matter. And and I think there's don't matter. And and I think there's don't matter. And and I think there's something to be said for something to be said for something to be said for sometimes individuals matter. There's sometimes individuals matter. There's sometimes individuals matter. There's specific individuals get into positions specific individuals get into positions specific individuals get into positions of power. They have specific of power. They have specific of power. They have specific um mindsets, specific worldviews which um mindsets, specific worldviews which um mindsets, specific worldviews which are not just the product of everybody are not just the product of everybody are not just the product of everybody around them. Of obviously they're of around them. Of obviously they're of around them. Of obviously they're of their time. They have to be. What else their time. They have to be. What else their time. They have to be. What else could they be? What if they're mentally could they be? What if they're mentally could they be? What if they're mentally what if they're mentally unbalanced?

what if they're mentally unbalanced? what if they're mentally unbalanced? What if they're mentally unbalanced? What if they're mentally unbalanced? What if they're mentally unbalanced? What if they just feel very strongly What if they just feel very strongly What if they just feel very strongly about women and children and the people about women and children and the people about women and children and the people around them don't? Who's right in that around them don't? Who's right in that around them don't? Who's right in that situation? Who's wrong? It doesn't situation? Who's wrong? It doesn't situation? Who's wrong? It doesn't matter, right? The issue is that these matter, right? The issue is that these matter, right? The issue is that these individuals matter a lot and if we're individuals matter a lot and if we're individuals matter a lot and if we're going to be thinking about how these going to be thinking about how these going to be thinking about how these systems work, we do have to talk about systems work, we do have to talk about systems work, we do have to talk about the technical stuff and talk about the the technical stuff and talk about the the technical stuff and talk about the strategy and talk about the planning and strategy and talk about the planning and strategy and talk about the planning and all this stuff. At the end of the day, all this stuff. At the end of the day, all this stuff. At the end of the day, if the system is set up in such a way if the system is set up in such a way if the system is set up in such a way that ultimately the position of the one that ultimately the position of the one that ultimately the position of the one person at the top is the opinion that person at the top is the opinion that person at the top is the opinion that everybody else will probably bend everybody else will probably bend everybody else will probably bend themselves around, then that person themselves around, then that person themselves around, then that person really matters. And there's relevance in really matters. And there's relevance in really matters. And there's relevance in that for the United States. There's that for the United States. There's that for the United States. There's relevance in that in thinking about relevance in that in thinking about relevance in that in thinking about Russia. If you're thinking about how Russia. If you're thinking about how Russia. If you're thinking about how worried should you be about say Putin worried should you be about say Putin worried should you be about say Putin wanting to use nuclear weapons or even wanting to use nuclear weapons or even wanting to use nuclear weapons or even in China with Xi uh part of it that is in China with Xi uh part of it that is in China with Xi uh part of it that is ultimately well, what does he think the ultimately well, what does he think the ultimately well, what does he think the situation is? What does he value? What situation is? What does he value? What situation is? What does he value? What does he not value? That stuff's hard to does he not value? That stuff's hard to does he not value? That stuff's hard to get at, right? Getting inside somebody's get at, right? Getting inside somebody's get at, right? Getting inside somebody's head. Um but we have to do that if we're head. Um but we have to do that if we're head. Um but we have to do that if we're going to think about these things going to think about these things going to think about these things seriously. We can't just put our faith seriously. We can't just put our faith seriously. We can't just put our faith in well, they'll think about it the way in well, they'll think about it the way in well, they'll think about it the way I do because who knows who they've been I do because who knows who they've been I do because who knows who they've been talking to. Who knows how much they talking to. Who knows how much they talking to. Who knows how much they understand. Who knows how good their understand. Who knows how good their understand. Who knows how good their intelligence briefings are. Who knows if intelligence briefings are. Who knows if intelligence briefings are. Who knows if they understand the weapons correctly.

they understand the weapons correctly. they understand the weapons correctly. That's a those are harder things to That's a those are harder things to That's a those are harder things to grasp than I think is is obvious. What's grasp than I think is is obvious. What's grasp than I think is is obvious. What's crazy is that a single person in a crazy is that a single person in a crazy is that a single person in a number of countries including North number of countries including North number of countries including North Korea may be our firewall protecting us Korea may be our firewall protecting us Korea may be our firewall protecting us from some sort of nuclear Armageddon. from some sort of nuclear Armageddon. from some sort of nuclear Armageddon. And yet as you point out in your book, And yet as you point out in your book, And yet as you point out in your book, in 1945 if we'd gone with sort of the in 1945 if we'd gone with sort of the in 1945 if we'd gone with sort of the group decision on things we might have group decision on things we might have group decision on things we might have dropped atomic bombs on even more city dropped atomic bombs on even more city dropped atomic bombs on even more city the cities. The one guy who said no was the cities. The one guy who said no was the cities. The one guy who said no was the firewall in that situation. Uh Dr., the firewall in that situation. Uh Dr., the firewall in that situation. Uh Dr., is there anything else I didn't ask you is there anything else I didn't ask you is there anything else I didn't ask you about today that you want to get in this about today that you want to get in this about today that you want to get in this conversation before we end it? conversation before we end it? conversation before we end it? Uh I'll just say if if if if if people Uh I'll just say if if if if if people Uh I'll just say if if if if if people find the claims I make, especially find the claims I make, especially find the claims I make, especially delivered delivered delivered you know, over a podcast to be hard to you know, over a podcast to be hard to you know, over a podcast to be hard to believe, please read the book. Uh believe, please read the book. Uh believe, please read the book. Uh uh I fully acknowledge that these are uh I fully acknowledge that these are uh I fully acknowledge that these are big claims and require evidence and in big claims and require evidence and in big claims and require evidence and in the book I try to give that evidence. the book I try to give that evidence. the book I try to give that evidence. And also practically And also practically And also practically every source in the book I've found a every source in the book I've found a every source in the book I've found a way to make easy to access online.

way to make easy to access online. way to make easy to access online. Uh you can use either the footnotes or I Uh you can use either the footnotes or I Uh you can use either the footnotes or I mean every primary source. mean every primary source. mean every primary source. Uh I'm also setting up some documents on Uh I'm also setting up some documents on Uh I'm also setting up some documents on my own website of some of the key the key documents from it. People are the key documents from it. People are more than welcome to take a look at more than welcome to take a look at more than welcome to take a look at this. Uh I I think this is an area that this. Uh I I think this is an area that this. Uh I I think this is an area that is uh again, we we we're fed these kind is uh again, we we we're fed these kind is uh again, we we we're fed these kind of of of stories about how the atomic bombs were stories about how the atomic bombs were stories about how the atomic bombs were used and we we weave them into our used and we we weave them into our used and we we weave them into our worldviews very seamlessly. And so worldviews very seamlessly. And so worldviews very seamlessly. And so anything that suggests something anything that suggests something anything that suggests something alternative seems I think a little alternative seems I think a little alternative seems I think a little surprising, but I think think people surprising, but I think think people surprising, but I think think people will be surprised that there's actually will be surprised that there's actually will be surprised that there's actually other ways to look at this. Oh, for other ways to look at this. Oh, for other ways to look at this. Oh, for those of us who've read lots of books on those of us who've read lots of books on those of us who've read lots of books on this subject, you had all sorts of this subject, you had all sorts of this subject, you had all sorts of things I'd never heard, read or thought things I'd never heard, read or thought things I'd never heard, read or thought about before. Uh Dr. Alex Wellerstein, about before. Uh Dr. Alex Wellerstein, about before. Uh Dr. Alex Wellerstein, thank you so much for coming on the thank you so much for coming on the thank you so much for coming on the program. It is a fantastic book. program. It is a fantastic book. program. It is a fantastic book. Thank you so much. I really appreciate Thank you so much. I really appreciate Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. My thanks to Professor Alex Wellerstein My thanks to Professor Alex Wellerstein for coming on the program today. His new for coming on the program today. His new for coming on the program today. His new book, The Most Awful Responsibility, book, The Most Awful Responsibility, book, The Most Awful Responsibility, Truman and the Secret Struggle for Truman and the Secret Struggle for Truman and the Secret Struggle for Control of the Atomic Age, is great.

Control of the Atomic Age, is great. Control of the Atomic Age, is great. I love books that don't just I love books that don't just I love books that don't just uh educate you on the subject that uh educate you on the subject that uh educate you on the subject that they're writing about, but then they're writing about, but then they're writing about, but then afterwards force you to afterwards force you to afterwards force you to you know, rethink everything you thought you know, rethink everything you thought you know, rethink everything you thought you knew about a subject. you knew about a subject. you knew about a subject. Those are always, in my opinion, uh the Those are always, in my opinion, uh the Those are always, in my opinion, uh the best ones. And if nothing else, I'm, you best ones. And if nothing else, I'm, you best ones. And if nothing else, I'm, you know, it's another lens through which to know, it's another lens through which to know, it's another lens through which to view all this. And one of the lenses is view all this. And one of the lenses is view all this. And one of the lenses is sort of sort of sort of to put yourself in the position of a guy to put yourself in the position of a guy to put yourself in the position of a guy like Harry Truman. like Harry Truman. like Harry Truman. It really is sort of worthy of a of a It really is sort of worthy of a of a It really is sort of worthy of a of a movie or something. I mean, think about movie or something. I mean, think about movie or something. I mean, think about it. Guy's not anywhere near the it. Guy's not anywhere near the it. Guy's not anywhere near the presidency. It's not even on his mind presidency. It's not even on his mind presidency. It's not even on his mind and then ipso facto this all that and then ipso facto this all that and then ipso facto this all that happens and then you find yourself as as happens and then you find yourself as as happens and then you find yourself as as vice president all of a sudden to a guy vice president all of a sudden to a guy vice president all of a sudden to a guy who's not really bringing you in at all who's not really bringing you in at all who's not really bringing you in at all because he's been president longer than because he's been president longer than because he's been president longer than anyone's been president ever in American anyone's been president ever in American anyone's been president ever in American history and he just sort of, you know, history and he just sort of, you know, history and he just sort of, you know, goes about doing his own things like a goes about doing his own things like a goes about doing his own things like a puppet master and a master politician puppet master and a master politician puppet master and a master politician and you're nowhere near anything and and you're nowhere near anything and and you're nowhere near anything and you've barely had the job for 5 seconds you've barely had the job for 5 seconds you've barely had the job for 5 seconds and he dies and now you're in control of and he dies and now you're in control of and he dies and now you're in control of it all and it happens to be in the it all and it happens to be in the it all and it happens to be in the middle of the greatest war humanity's middle of the greatest war humanity's middle of the greatest war humanity's ever been involved in and oh yeah, ever been involved in and oh yeah, ever been involved in and oh yeah, there's a secret weapon we've been there's a secret weapon we've been there's a secret weapon we've been working on. It's the most terrible thing working on. It's the most terrible thing working on. It's the most terrible thing anyone's ever had control of and what do anyone's ever had control of and what do anyone's ever had control of and what do you want to do with it?

you want to do with it? you want to do with it? Holy cow. And then, Holy cow. And then, Holy cow. And then, you know, in the book you know, in the book you know, in the book Westerstein Westerstein Westerstein puts you in this position sometimes puts you in this position sometimes puts you in this position sometimes where Truman is saying to people in where Truman is saying to people in where Truman is saying to people in small rooms, you have no idea what it's small rooms, you have no idea what it's small rooms, you have no idea what it's like to be in like to be in like to be in in this position I'm in and having to in this position I'm in and having to in this position I'm in and having to make these sorts of decisions. make these sorts of decisions. make these sorts of decisions. And then to try to maybe mitigate them, And then to try to maybe mitigate them, And then to try to maybe mitigate them, you know, not kill women and children you know, not kill women and children you know, not kill women and children cuz you're a decent human being and then cuz you're a decent human being and then cuz you're a decent human being and then wake up and find out that's exactly what wake up and find out that's exactly what wake up and find out that's exactly what you ordered or did or maybe never you ordered or did or maybe never you ordered or did or maybe never ordered at all. It's a fantastic look ordered at all. It's a fantastic look ordered at all. It's a fantastic look into a subject that, as I said, if you into a subject that, as I said, if you into a subject that, as I said, if you did ask me about it before I read this did ask me about it before I read this did ask me about it before I read this book, I would have been a lot more sure book, I would have been a lot more sure book, I would have been a lot more sure of saying, "Well, yeah, you know, Truman of saying, "Well, yeah, you know, Truman of saying, "Well, yeah, you know, Truman ordered the ordered the ordered the bombs dropped and this and that." And bombs dropped and this and that." And bombs dropped and this and that." And well, that's sort of like the well, that's sort of like the well, that's sort of like the connect the dots sort of theory of connect the dots sort of theory of connect the dots sort of theory of history where these are bullet points history where these are bullet points history where these are bullet points and that's what we know and then as and that's what we know and then as and that's what we know and then as usual when you start to dive into the usual when you start to dive into the usual when you start to dive into the white space between the dots, that's white space between the dots, that's white space between the dots, that's where all the interesting nuance happens where all the interesting nuance happens where all the interesting nuance happens and Westerstein's book gets into all and Westerstein's book gets into all and Westerstein's book gets into all that. And the reason you should care and that. And the reason you should care and that. And the reason you should care and the reason we talk about nuclear weapons the reason we talk about nuclear weapons the reason we talk about nuclear weapons a lot and the reason it came up in every a lot and the reason it came up in every a lot and the reason it came up in every live show I did spontaneously with live show I did spontaneously with live show I did spontaneously with people people people is because this should be naturally is because this should be naturally is because this should be naturally interesting to us because it is the interesting to us because it is the interesting to us because it is the Occam's razor answer to the question, Occam's razor answer to the question, Occam's razor answer to the question, "What happened to humanity?"

"What happened to humanity?" "What happened to humanity?" Cuz we could kill ourselves in any Cuz we could kill ourselves in any Cuz we could kill ourselves in any number of different ways and something number of different ways and something number of different ways and something could kill us, you know, meteors, uh could kill us, you know, meteors, uh could kill us, you know, meteors, uh some sort of pathogen. some sort of pathogen. some sort of pathogen. But the most likely way we kill But the most likely way we kill But the most likely way we kill ourselves is going to be offing ourselves is going to be offing ourselves is going to be offing ourselves with our own weapons because ourselves with our own weapons because ourselves with our own weapons because all we have to do to end up in that all we have to do to end up in that all we have to do to end up in that reality is everything we've ever done in reality is everything we've ever done in reality is everything we've ever done in the past forever. the past forever. the past forever. We continue standard operating procedure We continue standard operating procedure We continue standard operating procedure as human beings going as far back as we as human beings going as far back as we as human beings going as far back as we can can can read, certainly. read, certainly. read, certainly. Uh and we will certainly use these Uh and we will certainly use these Uh and we will certainly use these weapons weapons weapons and people do not think enough about and people do not think enough about and people do not think enough about what these weapons can do. And when you what these weapons can do. And when you what these weapons can do. And when you realize where those lines cross, right? realize where those lines cross, right? realize where those lines cross, right? All we have to do is everything we've All we have to do is everything we've All we have to do is everything we've always done and what we have to work always done and what we have to work always done and what we have to work with now compared to what we've ever had with now compared to what we've ever had with now compared to what we've ever had before, before, before, well, this should be our number one well, this should be our number one well, this should be our number one concern, shouldn't it? Because it's, as concern, shouldn't it? Because it's, as concern, shouldn't it? Because it's, as I said, I said, I said, the most likely answer to the question the most likely answer to the question the most likely answer to the question of of of you know, how do we end up with statues you know, how do we end up with statues you know, how do we end up with statues of liberty in the sand?

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