EP33 Sledgehammer and Big Shot

I first made the acquaintance of Henry I first made the acquaintance of Henry Sledge Sledge Sledge after he got in touch with me, after he got in touch with me, after he got in touch with me, after we did a show where I had after we did a show where I had after we did a show where I had mentioned or quoted his dad mentioned or quoted his dad mentioned or quoted his dad and we stayed in touch since then. And I and we stayed in touch since then. And I and we stayed in touch since then. And I don't remember if he was already writing don't remember if he was already writing don't remember if he was already writing a book or just planning to or if he was a book or just planning to or if he was a book or just planning to or if he was in the middle of it, but he uh there was in the middle of it, but he uh there was in the middle of it, but he uh there was a book involved and I along with you a book involved and I along with you a book involved and I along with you know lots and lots and lots of other know lots and lots and lots of other know lots and lots and lots of other people he talked to uh enthusiastically people he talked to uh enthusiastically people he talked to uh enthusiastically encouraged him to continue on or to encouraged him to continue on or to encouraged him to continue on or to write the book. And so I also said when you write it uh And so I also said when you write it uh or when it's done please come on the or when it's done please come on the or when it's done please come on the show and we'll we'll talk about it. Now, show and we'll we'll talk about it. Now, show and we'll we'll talk about it. Now, if you don't know uh who Henry's dad is, if you don't know uh who Henry's dad is, if you don't know uh who Henry's dad is, first of all, his name is uh sometimes first of all, his name is uh sometimes first of all, his name is uh sometimes on the cover of the book uh or books on the cover of the book uh or books on the cover of the book uh or books that that he wrote, uh he'll be called that that he wrote, uh he'll be called that that he wrote, uh he'll be called EB Sledge, but his name was Eugene EB Sledge, but his name was Eugene EB Sledge, but his name was Eugene Sledge. Sledge. Sledge. Uh he's he's been made famous more since Uh he's he's been made famous more since Uh he's he's been made famous more since his death because one of the characters his death because one of the characters his death because one of the characters in HBO's uh series on the Pacific War in HBO's uh series on the Pacific War in HBO's uh series on the Pacific War dramatization dramatization dramatization is this guy.

is this guy. is this guy. But uh like many other people, I became But uh like many other people, I became But uh like many other people, I became aware of him after uh his book with the aware of him after uh his book with the aware of him after uh his book with the old breed uh at Peloo in Okinawa uh old breed uh at Peloo in Okinawa uh old breed uh at Peloo in Okinawa uh first appeared in the 1980s. I don't first appeared in the 1980s. I don't first appeared in the 1980s. I don't remember when I read it, 83, 84, 85, remember when I read it, 83, 84, 85, remember when I read it, 83, 84, 85, somewhere in there. And then you started somewhere in there. And then you started somewhere in there. And then you started seeing um this gentleman on a bunch of seeing um this gentleman on a bunch of seeing um this gentleman on a bunch of different uh documentaries and whatnot different uh documentaries and whatnot different uh documentaries and whatnot on the Pacific War. Um and so you got a on the Pacific War. Um and so you got a on the Pacific War. Um and so you got a chance to sort of get a feel for who the chance to sort of get a feel for who the chance to sort of get a feel for who the guy was. even in addition to the writing guy was. even in addition to the writing guy was. even in addition to the writing and he was just a really interesting and he was just a really interesting and he was just a really interesting deep um man that was such an a wonderful deep um man that was such an a wonderful deep um man that was such an a wonderful representation representation representation of um the various kind of people who end of um the various kind of people who end of um the various kind of people who end up in the military now of course still up in the military now of course still up in the military now of course still but even more so back in the day when uh but even more so back in the day when uh but even more so back in the day when uh everybody went I mean virtually everybody went I mean virtually everybody went I mean virtually everybody went when you had wars on everybody went when you had wars on everybody went when you had wars on where they're drafting the population uh where they're drafting the population uh where they're drafting the population uh it's a much larger cross-section it's a much larger cross-section it's a much larger cross-section of the male group of people than you of the male group of people than you of the male group of people than you were maybe getting when you're asking were maybe getting when you're asking were maybe getting when you're asking for volunteers, right? Although Eugene for volunteers, right? Although Eugene for volunteers, right? Although Eugene Sledge would have been first in line to Sledge would have been first in line to Sledge would have been first in line to volunteer. In fact, uh he could have volunteer. In fact, uh he could have volunteer. In fact, uh he could have become an officer and instead, you know, become an officer and instead, you know, become an officer and instead, you know, was worried that the war was going to was worried that the war was going to was worried that the war was going to end too quickly and he was going to miss end too quickly and he was going to miss end too quickly and he was going to miss it, which was a pretty common thing. And it, which was a pretty common thing. And it, which was a pretty common thing. And you think about it now, you're going, you think about it now, you're going, you think about it now, you're going, we'd hoped to miss it. They were worried we'd hoped to miss it. They were worried we'd hoped to miss it. They were worried about missing it. But the reason Henry about missing it. But the reason Henry about missing it. But the reason Henry wrote the book is because his dad's book wrote the book is because his dad's book wrote the book is because his dad's book with the old breed at Peloo and Okinawa with the old breed at Peloo and Okinawa with the old breed at Peloo and Okinawa is one of the best war memoirs in

is one of the best war memoirs in is one of the best war memoirs in American history by any soldier actually American history by any soldier actually American history by any soldier actually like on the front lines. It's fantastic. like on the front lines. It's fantastic. like on the front lines. It's fantastic. And my copy has just over 300 pages And my copy has just over 300 pages And my copy has just over 300 pages index included. index included. index included. What we didn't know is that there was a What we didn't know is that there was a What we didn't know is that there was a lot more and that when um Eugene Sledge lot more and that when um Eugene Sledge lot more and that when um Eugene Sledge was to have his book published, was to have his book published, was to have his book published, basically the publisher said, "We're basically the publisher said, "We're basically the publisher said, "We're interested in like 300 pages. Uh leave interested in like 300 pages. Uh leave interested in like 300 pages. Uh leave out the rest." And it turns out to be out the rest." And it turns out to be out the rest." And it turns out to be this fantastic tome in American military this fantastic tome in American military this fantastic tome in American military history and we left out a ton of it. I history and we left out a ton of it. I history and we left out a ton of it. I mean, who would do that, right? But mean, who would do that, right? But mean, who would do that, right? But again, no one knew. And and apparently again, no one knew. And and apparently again, no one knew. And and apparently uh Mr. Sledge's intentions were never to uh Mr. Sledge's intentions were never to uh Mr. Sledge's intentions were never to publish this stuff anyway. He was publish this stuff anyway. He was publish this stuff anyway. He was writing it down for his family and to writing it down for his family and to writing it down for his family and to sort of, you know, it's it's an exercise sort of, you know, it's it's an exercise sort of, you know, it's it's an exercise in healing, right? in healing, right? in healing, right? And his wife was typing up his longhand And his wife was typing up his longhand And his wife was typing up his longhand and basically said, you know, you have and basically said, you know, you have and basically said, you know, you have you have to publish this stuff. Now, if you don't know who um Eugene Now, if you don't know who um Eugene Sledge is, he's a veteran of the First Sledge is, he's a veteran of the First Sledge is, he's a veteran of the First Marine Division. He fought in the Marine Division. He fought in the Marine Division. He fought in the Pacific War. He was at Peloo. He was at Pacific War. He was at Peloo. He was at Pacific War. He was at Peloo. He was at Okinawa. Um, and it was horrifying.

Okinawa. Um, and it was horrifying. Okinawa. Um, and it was horrifying. I mean, Pelu is a tiny little place. I mean, Pelu is a tiny little place. I mean, Pelu is a tiny little place. And, uh, you know, the US lost 1,252 And, uh, you know, the US lost 1,252 And, uh, you know, the US lost 1,252 guys or something there. guys or something there. guys or something there. Uh, almost more than 5,000 wounded and Uh, almost more than 5,000 wounded and Uh, almost more than 5,000 wounded and and 12,000 Japanese soldiers perished on and 12,000 Japanese soldiers perished on and 12,000 Japanese soldiers perished on this tiny little spit of land, this this tiny little spit of land, this this tiny little spit of land, this coral reef basically. coral reef basically. coral reef basically. And then uh Sledge fought at Okinawa And then uh Sledge fought at Okinawa And then uh Sledge fought at Okinawa which was um a terrible terrible which was um a terrible terrible which was um a terrible terrible conflict because you were really conflict because you were really conflict because you were really approaching the Japanese home islands by approaching the Japanese home islands by approaching the Japanese home islands by the time you reach Okinawa and Okinawa the time you reach Okinawa and Okinawa the time you reach Okinawa and Okinawa is a big place. Uh the weather, flora, is a big place. Uh the weather, flora, is a big place. Uh the weather, flora, fauna, all that different and civilians. fauna, all that different and civilians. fauna, all that different and civilians. So Okinawa was a completely different So Okinawa was a completely different So Okinawa was a completely different kind of disaster. kind of disaster. kind of disaster. Uh but the US had 50,000 casualties, Uh but the US had 50,000 casualties, Uh but the US had 50,000 casualties, 12,500 12,500 12,500 basically killed basically killed basically killed and the Japanese lost almost 95,000 and the Japanese lost almost 95,000 and the Japanese lost almost 95,000 killed.

killed. killed. I mean that's again I mean that's again I mean that's again indicative of you know what these guys indicative of you know what these guys indicative of you know what these guys were facing were facing were facing and the marines and uh and army soldiers and the marines and uh and army soldiers and the marines and uh and army soldiers who were fighting in the Pacific never who were fighting in the Pacific never who were fighting in the Pacific never quite got the attention that those quite got the attention that those quite got the attention that those fighting in the European theater got fighting in the European theater got fighting in the European theater got uh and they faced very different kinds uh and they faced very different kinds uh and they faced very different kinds of challenges in the European theater. of challenges in the European theater. of challenges in the European theater. Uh the American forces were fighting Uh the American forces were fighting Uh the American forces were fighting against a a technologically against a a technologically against a a technologically sophisticated sophisticated sophisticated uh enemy, one that often had equipment uh enemy, one that often had equipment uh enemy, one that often had equipment that was better than our own. That's an that was better than our own. That's an that was better than our own. That's an interesting sort of thing to have to interesting sort of thing to have to interesting sort of thing to have to deal with. And Americans haven't had to deal with. And Americans haven't had to deal with. And Americans haven't had to deal with it since the Second World War. deal with it since the Second World War. deal with it since the Second World War. We've not gone into a conflict where in We've not gone into a conflict where in We've not gone into a conflict where in general the stuff of the people we're general the stuff of the people we're general the stuff of the people we're fighting was better than our own. you fighting was better than our own. you fighting was better than our own. you could have this weapon system or this could have this weapon system or this could have this weapon system or this plane, they could be better. But in plane, they could be better. But in plane, they could be better. But in general, when the US went up against uh general, when the US went up against uh general, when the US went up against uh German forces, part of the problem was German forces, part of the problem was German forces, part of the problem was their equipment was usually better. The their equipment was usually better. The their equipment was usually better. The way that they were organized and the way way that they were organized and the way way that they were organized and the way the equipment was built into things like the equipment was built into things like the equipment was built into things like the units was usually more efficient, the units was usually more efficient, the units was usually more efficient, right? Built around a machine gun right? Built around a machine gun right? Built around a machine gun section, for example, and the way that section, for example, and the way that section, for example, and the way that they did it, uh there were a lot of they did it, uh there were a lot of they did it, uh there were a lot of advantages. And so for the soldiers who advantages. And so for the soldiers who advantages. And so for the soldiers who had to fight against that foe, uh there had to fight against that foe, uh there had to fight against that foe, uh there were very specific kinds of challenges were very specific kinds of challenges were very specific kinds of challenges and horrific things that had to be dealt and horrific things that had to be dealt and horrific things that had to be dealt with and and tactical problems that had with and and tactical problems that had with and and tactical problems that had to be overcome. You had the same sorts to be overcome. You had the same sorts to be overcome. You had the same sorts of circumstances in the Pacific theater.

of circumstances in the Pacific theater. of circumstances in the Pacific theater. It it was just completely turned around It it was just completely turned around It it was just completely turned around there. The Japanese Navy was fantastic there. The Japanese Navy was fantastic there. The Japanese Navy was fantastic and sophisticated, but the army was a and sophisticated, but the army was a and sophisticated, but the army was a little backwards. Um not the greatest little backwards. Um not the greatest little backwards. Um not the greatest stuff, although some of the equipment stuff, although some of the equipment stuff, although some of the equipment underrated. The Namboo machine gun, very underrated. The Namboo machine gun, very underrated. The Namboo machine gun, very good, for example. good, for example. good, for example. But what the Japanese did was they But what the Japanese did was they But what the Japanese did was they countered it by having just an countered it by having just an countered it by having just an incredible attitude. That's what my the incredible attitude. That's what my the incredible attitude. That's what my the football coach would say, right? The football coach would say, right? The football coach would say, right? The attitude made up for a lot. Their attitude made up for a lot. Their attitude made up for a lot. Their willingness to throw their lives away willingness to throw their lives away willingness to throw their lives away for trivial gains uh and their for trivial gains uh and their for trivial gains uh and their unquestioning obedience to authority. unquestioning obedience to authority. unquestioning obedience to authority. That's a tool a general can use. as we That's a tool a general can use. as we That's a tool a general can use. as we said in our supernova in the e-series said in our supernova in the e-series said in our supernova in the e-series and as uh Henry Sledge is going to tell and as uh Henry Sledge is going to tell and as uh Henry Sledge is going to tell us in this conversation we're about to us in this conversation we're about to us in this conversation we're about to have. Um you know his dad said he have. Um you know his dad said he have. Um you know his dad said he wouldn't have wanted to fight the wouldn't have wanted to fight the wouldn't have wanted to fight the Germans but at least they went to bed at Germans but at least they went to bed at Germans but at least they went to bed at night. Uh the Japanese came out at night night. Uh the Japanese came out at night night. Uh the Japanese came out at night and and Henry Sledge says that his dad and and Henry Sledge says that his dad and and Henry Sledge says that his dad said that they had two shifts basically. said that they had two shifts basically. said that they had two shifts basically. The day shift and the night shift and The day shift and the night shift and The day shift and the night shift and when the day shift was done harassing when the day shift was done harassing when the day shift was done harassing you in the daytime they went back to the you in the daytime they went back to the you in the daytime they went back to the caves and went to sleep. and the night caves and went to sleep. and the night caves and went to sleep. and the night shift which had been sleeping in those shift which had been sleeping in those shift which had been sleeping in those caves came out at night. There's a caves came out at night. There's a caves came out at night. There's a different kind of horrificness with a different kind of horrificness with a different kind of horrificness with a more, you know, down to the earth more, you know, down to the earth more, you know, down to the earth holding a bayonet in their teeth holding a bayonet in their teeth holding a bayonet in their teeth crawling around your foxholes at night crawling around your foxholes at night crawling around your foxholes at night sort of enemy. Um, and one that's got an sort of enemy. Um, and one that's got an sort of enemy. Um, and one that's got an 88 mm anti-aircraft gun that'll cut 88 mm anti-aircraft gun that'll cut 88 mm anti-aircraft gun that'll cut through any tank you can drive, right?

through any tank you can drive, right? through any tank you can drive, right? Right. So, I mean, different either way, Right. So, I mean, different either way, Right. So, I mean, different either way, I wouldn't have wanted to be in either I wouldn't have wanted to be in either I wouldn't have wanted to be in either circumstance, but it seems to me that if circumstance, but it seems to me that if circumstance, but it seems to me that if you're worried about long-term you're worried about long-term you're worried about long-term nightmares nightmares nightmares um hounding you, like I said, either um hounding you, like I said, either um hounding you, like I said, either theater or give them to you, but I think theater or give them to you, but I think theater or give them to you, but I think the chances are higher you'd have them the chances are higher you'd have them the chances are higher you'd have them in the Pacific just because the way in the Pacific just because the way in the Pacific just because the way things were fought there, particularly things were fought there, particularly things were fought there, particularly nasty. And with the old breed, Sledge's nasty. And with the old breed, Sledge's nasty. And with the old breed, Sledge's book makes it clear there's some book makes it clear there's some book makes it clear there's some incidents in there that are just incidents in there that are just incidents in there that are just heartbreaking. heartbreaking. heartbreaking. And a lot of it revolves around uh And a lot of it revolves around uh And a lot of it revolves around uh standard things that happen in modern standard things that happen in modern standard things that happen in modern combat, right? I mean, you uh uh combat, right? I mean, you uh uh combat, right? I mean, you uh uh friendlies get targeted accidentally, friendlies get targeted accidentally, friendlies get targeted accidentally, for example. And that's one of the more for example. And that's one of the more for example. And that's one of the more heartbreaking things uh incidents that's heartbreaking things uh incidents that's heartbreaking things uh incidents that's talked about. I mean, in Eugene Sledge's talked about. I mean, in Eugene Sledge's talked about. I mean, in Eugene Sledge's book, there's an incident where the book, there's an incident where the book, there's an incident where the Japanese have this tendency to sneak Japanese have this tendency to sneak Japanese have this tendency to sneak around at night and then jump in a around at night and then jump in a around at night and then jump in a foxhole with US troops, um whether foxhole with US troops, um whether foxhole with US troops, um whether that's Marines or Army troops. And that's Marines or Army troops. And that's Marines or Army troops. And usually the foxholes had two people. One usually the foxholes had two people. One usually the foxholes had two people. One would sleep in uh the foxhole and the would sleep in uh the foxhole and the would sleep in uh the foxhole and the other would stand guard. And in the other would stand guard. And in the other would stand guard. And in the story he was telling, one of the Marines story he was telling, one of the Marines story he was telling, one of the Marines fell asleep when he was supposed to be fell asleep when he was supposed to be fell asleep when he was supposed to be on guard. The Japanese got in the on guard. The Japanese got in the on guard. The Japanese got in the foxhole um started creating all kinds of foxhole um started creating all kinds of foxhole um started creating all kinds of havoc with knives and whatnot. So the havoc with knives and whatnot. So the havoc with knives and whatnot. So the marine that was asleep jumped up, you marine that was asleep jumped up, you marine that was asleep jumped up, you know, cuz of course he just awakened know, cuz of course he just awakened know, cuz of course he just awakened from a deep sleep, runs out of the from a deep sleep, runs out of the from a deep sleep, runs out of the foxhole. And all the other marines are foxhole. And all the other marines are foxhole. And all the other marines are around in the other foxholes. They can't around in the other foxholes. They can't around in the other foxholes. They can't see anything. So somebody basically hits see anything. So somebody basically hits see anything. So somebody basically hits this guy with a shovel and then another this guy with a shovel and then another this guy with a shovel and then another marine, you know, goes up and shoots him marine, you know, goes up and shoots him marine, you know, goes up and shoots him in the head cuz they think he's the

in the head cuz they think he's the in the head cuz they think he's the enemy. And then in the morning they f enemy. And then in the morning they f enemy. And then in the morning they f find him. We talk about this in the find him. We talk about this in the find him. We talk about this in the upcoming conversations. That's the my upcoming conversations. That's the my upcoming conversations. That's the my god, it's Bill story. But you think god, it's Bill story. But you think god, it's Bill story. But you think about the Marine that shot his buddy in about the Marine that shot his buddy in about the Marine that shot his buddy in the head in a case of mistaken identity the head in a case of mistaken identity the head in a case of mistaken identity because another Marine fell asleep in a because another Marine fell asleep in a because another Marine fell asleep in a foxhole and a Japanese guy who'd been foxhole and a Japanese guy who'd been foxhole and a Japanese guy who'd been sleeping all day waiting for the chance sleeping all day waiting for the chance sleeping all day waiting for the chance to go out at night and do something like to go out at night and do something like to go out at night and do something like I mean I mean I mean this is why something like Sledge's book this is why something like Sledge's book this is why something like Sledge's book hits so hard. And Henry Sledge, his son, hits so hard. And Henry Sledge, his son, hits so hard. And Henry Sledge, his son, um, grew up with a father who was both a um, grew up with a father who was both a um, grew up with a father who was both a hero in his mind and he knew what his hero in his mind and he knew what his hero in his mind and he knew what his dad had put up with and been through dad had put up with and been through dad had put up with and been through and a guy who was forever changed by the and a guy who was forever changed by the and a guy who was forever changed by the conflict and who conflict and who conflict and who simply by telling his story simply by telling his story simply by telling his story in the most, you know, open and honest in the most, you know, open and honest in the most, you know, open and honest terms, and this is often the case, by terms, and this is often the case, by terms, and this is often the case, by the way, creates an anti-war piece. I the way, creates an anti-war piece. I the way, creates an anti-war piece. I mean, the best way to make somebody mean, the best way to make somebody mean, the best way to make somebody anti-war is to show them the real thing.

anti-war is to show them the real thing. anti-war is to show them the real thing. And it's the humanity that a guy like And it's the humanity that a guy like And it's the humanity that a guy like Eugene Sledge always showed and always Eugene Sledge always showed and always Eugene Sledge always showed and always came through um that makes him the kind came through um that makes him the kind came through um that makes him the kind of figure he became, especially with of figure he became, especially with of figure he became, especially with people who paid attention to the Pacific people who paid attention to the Pacific people who paid attention to the Pacific War and watched the documentaries and War and watched the documentaries and War and watched the documentaries and read the books. read the books. read the books. And what Henry's done in his work is uh And what Henry's done in his work is uh And what Henry's done in his work is uh include things that were left out of the include things that were left out of the include things that were left out of the original book. And he writes in two sort original book. And he writes in two sort original book. And he writes in two sort of um voices. One's bold print and the of um voices. One's bold print and the of um voices. One's bold print and the other's regular print. And the bold other's regular print. And the bold other's regular print. And the bold print is the stuff from his dad. And the print is the stuff from his dad. And the print is the stuff from his dad. And the regular print is his own stuff sort of regular print is his own stuff sort of regular print is his own stuff sort of linking the other things together. So, linking the other things together. So, linking the other things together. So, first of all, if you've ever read Eugene first of all, if you've ever read Eugene first of all, if you've ever read Eugene Sledge's book with the old breed, this Sledge's book with the old breed, this Sledge's book with the old breed, this is the rest of the story. It's worth is the rest of the story. It's worth is the rest of the story. It's worth having just for that. Um, but it's it's having just for that. Um, but it's it's having just for that. Um, but it's it's the sort of thing where you sort of find the sort of thing where you sort of find the sort of thing where you sort of find out what it was like after uh Henry's out what it was like after uh Henry's out what it was like after uh Henry's dad came home and had to continue to, dad came home and had to continue to, dad came home and had to continue to, you know, be a productive member of you know, be a productive member of you know, be a productive member of society, you know, pick up his dreams society, you know, pick up his dreams society, you know, pick up his dreams where they left off, right? The war where they left off, right? The war where they left off, right? The war interrupted a lot of people's lives, interrupted a lot of people's lives, interrupted a lot of people's lives, including Eugene Sledges, and then, you including Eugene Sledges, and then, you including Eugene Sledges, and then, you know, work out life the way we all have know, work out life the way we all have know, work out life the way we all have to, but with a lot of stuff in his to, but with a lot of stuff in his to, but with a lot of stuff in his background. I mean here for example is a background. I mean here for example is a background. I mean here for example is a story that he told that was in a story that he told that was in a story that he told that was in a documentary which is if you want to see documentary which is if you want to see documentary which is if you want to see top three documentaries on the Pacific top three documentaries on the Pacific top three documentaries on the Pacific War ever done. It was called Hell in the War ever done. It was called Hell in the War ever done. It was called Hell in the Pacific. It was a British production. Uh Pacific. It was a British production. Uh Pacific. It was a British production. Uh you can see it online I believe. Uh but you can see it online I believe. Uh but you can see it online I believe. Uh but this is Eugene Sledge. He by the way is this is Eugene Sledge. He by the way is this is Eugene Sledge. He by the way is the very first voice you hear uh in the

the very first voice you hear uh in the the very first voice you hear uh in the entire series and it's a multi-part entire series and it's a multi-part entire series and it's a multi-part series. It's it's Eugene Sledge talking series. It's it's Eugene Sledge talking series. It's it's Eugene Sledge talking about, you know, the front lines are about, you know, the front lines are about, you know, the front lines are where the real war is. And he cringes where the real war is. And he cringes where the real war is. And he cringes every time some lawmaker wants to send every time some lawmaker wants to send every time some lawmaker wants to send troops in combat because they don't know troops in combat because they don't know troops in combat because they don't know what it's like. And he said, even people what it's like. And he said, even people what it's like. And he said, even people a 100 yards behind the front line don't a 100 yards behind the front line don't a 100 yards behind the front line don't know what it's like. know what it's like. know what it's like. And at one point he was talking about And at one point he was talking about And at one point he was talking about coming back to sort of the regular coming back to sort of the regular coming back to sort of the regular world, right? You got to pick up your world, right? You got to pick up your world, right? You got to pick up your life where you left off. And he tells life where you left off. And he tells life where you left off. And he tells this story of going to sort of apply for this story of going to sort of apply for this story of going to sort of apply for a job. And the person that he's, you a job. And the person that he's, you a job. And the person that he's, you know, applying to basically says, "Well, know, applying to basically says, "Well, know, applying to basically says, "Well, you know, what skills did you have?" And you know, what skills did you have?" And you know, what skills did you have?" And he goes, "I was in the Marine Corps." he goes, "I was in the Marine Corps." he goes, "I was in the Marine Corps." "Well, what' the Marine Corps teach "Well, what' the Marine Corps teach "Well, what' the Marine Corps teach you?" And he had an explosive moment. you?" And he had an explosive moment. you?" And he had an explosive moment. And it sounded as he related it in, as I And it sounded as he related it in, as I And it sounded as he related it in, as I said, go watch it if you want to see one said, go watch it if you want to see one said, go watch it if you want to see one of the best documentaries ever done on of the best documentaries ever done on of the best documentaries ever done on the Pacific War, Hell in the Pacific. the Pacific War, Hell in the Pacific. the Pacific War, Hell in the Pacific. This is Eugene Sledge. And you get a This is Eugene Sledge. And you get a This is Eugene Sledge. And you get a sense here as he's speaking about sense here as he's speaking about sense here as he's speaking about something that lots and lots of people something that lots and lots of people something that lots and lots of people in multiple armies around the world had in multiple armies around the world had in multiple armies around the world had to deal with after this war.

to deal with after this war. to deal with after this war. I said, "Well, I qualified with the M1 I said, "Well, I qualified with the M1 I said, "Well, I qualified with the M1 rifle, the 45 caliber pistol, the model rifle, the 45 caliber pistol, the model rifle, the 45 caliber pistol, the model 20 machine like machine gun, the 20 machine like machine gun, the 20 machine like machine gun, the flamethrower with bayonet." She said, flamethrower with bayonet." She said, flamethrower with bayonet." She said, "What? "What? "What? What is it? What are you What are you What is it? What are you What are you What is it? What are you What are you doing all that for? I'm talking about doing all that for? I'm talking about doing all that for? I'm talking about academic credit. Why did you do all academic credit. Why did you do all academic credit. Why did you do all didn't you didn't they teach you didn't you didn't they teach you didn't you didn't they teach you anything?" I And I just said in this anything?" I And I just said in this anything?" I And I just said in this booming voice because I completely lost booming voice because I completely lost booming voice because I completely lost my head. I said, "Lady," and you could my head. I said, "Lady," and you could my head. I said, "Lady," and you could hear a pin drop. I said, "Lady, there hear a pin drop. I said, "Lady, there hear a pin drop. I said, "Lady, there was a killing war going on and I was one was a killing war going on and I was one was a killing war going on and I was one of the ones who had to do some of the of the ones who had to do some of the of the ones who had to do some of the killing." She was so embarrassed and killing." She was so embarrassed and killing." She was so embarrassed and apologized. And then I said, "Well, apologized. And then I said, "Well, apologized. And then I said, "Well, that's all right. I know you don't that's all right. I know you don't that's all right. I know you don't understand." Well, who better to talk about what Well, who better to talk about what these challenges were and what kind of these challenges were and what kind of these challenges were and what kind of man this was and to incorporate the rest man this was and to incorporate the rest man this was and to incorporate the rest of the story of this guy's Peloo Okinawa of the story of this guy's Peloo Okinawa of the story of this guy's Peloo Okinawa and other existence that may have felt and other existence that may have felt and other existence that may have felt left out of a 300 or so page work that's left out of a 300 or so page work that's left out of a 300 or so page work that's a classic. Uh, if you told me you were a classic. Uh, if you told me you were a classic. Uh, if you told me you were going to give me more JRR Tolken, I'm going to give me more JRR Tolken, I'm going to give me more JRR Tolken, I'm snapping that up. And by the way, we snapping that up. And by the way, we snapping that up. And by the way, we have gotten more of that. And I have have gotten more of that. And I have have gotten more of that. And I have snapped it up. Well, this is more Eugene snapped it up. Well, this is more Eugene snapped it up. Well, this is more Eugene Sledge from, you know, his son who, you Sledge from, you know, his son who, you Sledge from, you know, his son who, you know, Eugene was known as Sledgehammer know, Eugene was known as Sledgehammer know, Eugene was known as Sledgehammer by his u military uh brethren. He called by his u military uh brethren. He called by his u military uh brethren. He called his son Bigshot.

his son Bigshot. his son Bigshot. and big shot Henry Sledge is on the show and big shot Henry Sledge is on the show and big shot Henry Sledge is on the show today to talk about his dad, his new today to talk about his dad, his new today to talk about his dad, his new book, The Old Breed, the Complete Story book, The Old Breed, the Complete Story book, The Old Breed, the Complete Story Revealed, and Revealed, and Revealed, and War in General. When did you become aware When did you become aware of your father's sort of military of your father's sort of military of your father's sort of military history? I mean, are you four? Are you history? I mean, are you four? Are you history? I mean, are you four? Are you five? I mean, you and I are the same age five? I mean, you and I are the same age five? I mean, you and I are the same age and we come from a generation where it's and we come from a generation where it's and we come from a generation where it's pretty normal to say to your dad, "Hey, pretty normal to say to your dad, "Hey, pretty normal to say to your dad, "Hey, what'd you do in the war?" Uh, my what'd you do in the war?" Uh, my what'd you do in the war?" Uh, my father's answer to that question was father's answer to that question was father's answer to that question was frustratingly mundane. Yours would have frustratingly mundane. Yours would have frustratingly mundane. Yours would have been somewhat different. When did you been somewhat different. When did you been somewhat different. When did you first become aware uh that your dad had first become aware uh that your dad had first become aware uh that your dad had this personal history? this personal history? this personal history? I have really early childhood memories, I have really early childhood memories, I have really early childhood memories, uh, Dan, of literally sitting in our uh, Dan, of literally sitting in our uh, Dan, of literally sitting in our living room and and the house we had at living room and and the house we had at living room and and the house we had at that point in my life that point in my life that point in my life and, you know, seeing on the mantel and, you know, seeing on the mantel and, you know, seeing on the mantel piece piece piece this this this K35, K35, K35, you know, unit insignia that was framed.

you know, unit insignia that was framed. you know, unit insignia that was framed. And you know, I remember, of course, and And you know, I remember, of course, and And you know, I remember, of course, and I've talked about this, I I remember I've talked about this, I I remember I've talked about this, I I remember getting up and seeing my father writing getting up and seeing my father writing getting up and seeing my father writing on a legal pad by the by the fireplace on a legal pad by the by the fireplace on a legal pad by the by the fireplace late at night. But that would of course late at night. But that would of course late at night. But that would of course would lead to questions about, you know, would lead to questions about, you know, would lead to questions about, you know, what are you working on, Dad? Well, and what are you working on, Dad? Well, and what are you working on, Dad? Well, and he would say, "I'm just working on he would say, "I'm just working on he would say, "I'm just working on something for you and your brother." But something for you and your brother." But something for you and your brother." But it it seems like it it seems like it it seems like really literally I mean some of my really literally I mean some of my really literally I mean some of my earliest childhood memories are earliest childhood memories are earliest childhood memories are of just having this awareness that you of just having this awareness that you of just having this awareness that you know dad was in the first marine know dad was in the first marine know dad was in the first marine division. division. division. Um it it it was never dad fought in the Um it it it was never dad fought in the Um it it it was never dad fought in the war. It was dad was in the first marine war. It was dad was in the first marine war. It was dad was in the first marine division. Dad was in the Pacific. division. Dad was in the Pacific. division. Dad was in the Pacific. Uh you know I can remember my brother Uh you know I can remember my brother Uh you know I can remember my brother and me going to we called them army and me going to we called them army and me going to we called them army surplus stores back then. Dan, I'm sure surplus stores back then. Dan, I'm sure surplus stores back then. Dan, I'm sure you remember that. I went to them all you remember that. I went to them all you remember that. I went to them all the time and I missed the old ones. the time and I missed the old ones. the time and I missed the old ones. Yeah, we would go to Army Surplus or Yeah, we would go to Army Surplus or Yeah, we would go to Army Surplus or Army Navy stores and I remember we went Army Navy stores and I remember we went Army Navy stores and I remember we went to one in Mobile. We were down there to one in Mobile. We were down there to one in Mobile. We were down there visiting my grandmother's visiting my grandmother's visiting my grandmother's and yeah, I was probably 6 years old and and yeah, I was probably 6 years old and and yeah, I was probably 6 years old and I just remember walking around in that I just remember walking around in that I just remember walking around in that store and my brother was probably, you store and my brother was probably, you store and my brother was probably, you know, my brother would have been about know, my brother would have been about know, my brother would have been about 12, 13.

12, 13. 12, 13. And I just have this clear memory of my And I just have this clear memory of my And I just have this clear memory of my father, you know, he'd pick something up father, you know, he'd pick something up father, you know, he'd pick something up and oh, we had one like that at Peloo and oh, we had one like that at Peloo and oh, we had one like that at Peloo or, you know, he picked something else. or, you know, he picked something else. or, you know, he picked something else. Oh, you know, a lot of the guys would Oh, you know, a lot of the guys would Oh, you know, a lot of the guys would wear it like this. wear it like this. wear it like this. Um, Um, Um, and and so I, you know, I had this and and so I, you know, I had this and and so I, you know, I had this really early appreciation for really early appreciation for really early appreciation for and like and like you said, Dan, we're and like and like you said, Dan, we're and like and like you said, Dan, we're the same age. I mean, we we were the same age. I mean, we we were the same age. I mean, we we were fascinated by the the the things they fascinated by the the the things they fascinated by the the the things they wore, the helmets, the packs, the wore, the helmets, the packs, the wore, the helmets, the packs, the cantens, the airplanes, the tanks. cantens, the airplanes, the tanks. cantens, the airplanes, the tanks. Um, but for me really early on, you Um, but for me really early on, you Um, but for me really early on, you know, I had, it just seems like I don't know, I had, it just seems like I don't know, I had, it just seems like I don't ever remember a time in my life when I ever remember a time in my life when I ever remember a time in my life when I wasn't aware wasn't aware wasn't aware that my dad was in the first Marine that my dad was in the first Marine that my dad was in the first Marine Division. Division. Division. But that's something to a kid that's But that's something to a kid that's But that's something to a kid that's different from when you become a different from when you become a different from when you become a teenager or an adult, right? the teenager or an adult, right? the teenager or an adult, right? the difference between seeing your dad in a difference between seeing your dad in a difference between seeing your dad in a in a version of your mind of a John in a version of your mind of a John in a version of your mind of a John Wayne movie or something and then Wayne movie or something and then Wayne movie or something and then realizing the reality of what your dad realizing the reality of what your dad realizing the reality of what your dad and his buddies and a lot of other and his buddies and a lot of other and his buddies and a lot of other people on both sides went through. When people on both sides went through. When people on both sides went through. When did it start to hit you on a deeper did it start to hit you on a deeper did it start to hit you on a deeper level than you know the Army Navy store level than you know the Army Navy store level than you know the Army Navy store brings back memories? I mean we brings back memories? I mean we brings back memories? I mean we literally all ran around with some literally all ran around with some literally all ran around with some Korean War or Second World War guy's Korean War or Second World War guy's Korean War or Second World War guy's belt, you know, playing games. But but belt, you know, playing games. But but belt, you know, playing games. But but when did when did the deeper um when did when did the deeper um when did when did the deeper um understanding of the crucible that was understanding of the crucible that was understanding of the crucible that was what your father went through begin to what your father went through begin to what your father went through begin to sink in?

sink in? sink in? You know, I remember seeing type pages You know, I remember seeing type pages You know, I remember seeing type pages when my mother was typing the manuscript when my mother was typing the manuscript when my mother was typing the manuscript with the old breed. I remember it it was with the old breed. I remember it it was with the old breed. I remember it it was stacked up on a table as she would type stacked up on a table as she would type stacked up on a table as she would type the pages and my brother and I would the pages and my brother and I would the pages and my brother and I would pass through the room and we pick these pass through the room and we pick these pass through the room and we pick these pages up and read you know we would read pages up and read you know we would read pages up and read you know we would read them and I you know as I've said to many them and I you know as I've said to many them and I you know as I've said to many people I mean I literally saw what people I mean I literally saw what people I mean I literally saw what everybody has come to know in his book I everybody has come to know in his book I everybody has come to know in his book I saw it from my earliest years but but it saw it from my earliest years but but it saw it from my earliest years but but it I guess fortunately for my younger years I guess fortunately for my younger years I guess fortunately for my younger years it was not anything that that scared me it was not anything that that scared me it was not anything that that scared me or disturbed me. Um, I I will give you or disturbed me. Um, I I will give you or disturbed me. Um, I I will give you this example, Dan, because it it was this example, Dan, because it it was this example, Dan, because it it was very frightening and fortunately nothing very frightening and fortunately nothing very frightening and fortunately nothing like this ever happened again. Uh, I was like this ever happened again. Uh, I was like this ever happened again. Uh, I was probably probably probably 6 years old, my brother was seven, or 6 years old, my brother was seven, or 6 years old, my brother was seven, or I'm sorry, my brother was 12 or 13. The I'm sorry, my brother was 12 or 13. The I'm sorry, my brother was 12 or 13. The movie Patton came on. Um, and I remember movie Patton came on. Um, and I remember movie Patton came on. Um, and I remember when my brother went to see that in the when my brother went to see that in the when my brother went to see that in the theaters with his with his buddies, but theaters with his with his buddies, but theaters with his with his buddies, but it was coming on television it was coming on television it was coming on television somehow. And my father hated war movies.

somehow. And my father hated war movies. somehow. And my father hated war movies. Somehow my brother taught my dad into Somehow my brother taught my dad into Somehow my brother taught my dad into ah, it's really well done. Let's watch ah, it's really well done. Let's watch ah, it's really well done. Let's watch it. And my dad agreed to watch it. So we it. And my dad agreed to watch it. So we it. And my dad agreed to watch it. So we sit down in the living room. We're sit down in the living room. We're sit down in the living room. We're watching Patton. And the scene where watching Patton. And the scene where watching Patton. And the scene where they're in tobuk and it's this massive, they're in tobuk and it's this massive, they're in tobuk and it's this massive, you know, tank battle. You you've got you know, tank battle. You you've got you know, tank battle. You you've got high caliber this cacophony of just high caliber this cacophony of just high caliber this cacophony of just relentless shell fire and those Persian relentless shell fire and those Persian relentless shell fire and those Persian and those and those Persian tanks and those and those Persian tanks and those and those Persian tanks masquerading as as German tanks. masquerading as as German tanks. masquerading as as German tanks. Yeah. With the Balkan crotzes on. Yeah. With the Balkan crotzes on. Yeah. With the Balkan crotzes on. Absolutely. And so I just remember Absolutely. And so I just remember Absolutely. And so I just remember sitting there and I just remember my sitting there and I just remember my sitting there and I just remember my father sitting in the chair and him he father sitting in the chair and him he father sitting in the chair and him he started to become agitated started to become agitated started to become agitated and it's like like you know the scene and it's like like you know the scene and it's like like you know the scene I'm talking about Dan. I mean it's just I'm talking about Dan. I mean it's just I'm talking about Dan. I mean it's just one highcaliber shell hit after another. one highcaliber shell hit after another. one highcaliber shell hit after another. But it's it's literally like this huge But it's it's literally like this huge But it's it's literally like this huge setpiece battle. And my dad's sitting setpiece battle. And my dad's sitting setpiece battle. And my dad's sitting there there there and he's just I can literally sense him and he's just I can literally sense him and he's just I can literally sense him and see him tensing up and becoming and see him tensing up and becoming and see him tensing up and becoming physically agitated. All right. He he physically agitated. All right. He he physically agitated. All right. He he got up out of his chair, walked into the got up out of his chair, walked into the got up out of his chair, walked into the kitchen and began pounding the kitchen and began pounding the kitchen and began pounding the refrigerator.

refrigerator. refrigerator. And of course, you know, my mother And of course, you know, my mother And of course, you know, my mother immediately, "John, turn the TV off." So immediately, "John, turn the TV off." So immediately, "John, turn the TV off." So my brother turns off the TV. She and my my brother turns off the TV. She and my my brother turns off the TV. She and my dad was sobbing, dad was sobbing, dad was sobbing, pounding the refrigerator. She runs in pounding the refrigerator. She runs in pounding the refrigerator. She runs in there to the kitchen, you know, gets him there to the kitchen, you know, gets him there to the kitchen, you know, gets him back in the living room. He he she gets back in the living room. He he she gets back in the living room. He he she gets him in he sits down. And of course, I'm him in he sits down. And of course, I'm him in he sits down. And of course, I'm terrified. I've never seen my dad act terrified. I've never seen my dad act terrified. I've never seen my dad act like this for anything. And I just like this for anything. And I just like this for anything. And I just remember him sitting there and sobbing. remember him sitting there and sobbing. remember him sitting there and sobbing. And I we she he calmed down and we never And I we she he calmed down and we never And I we she he calmed down and we never spoke of that night again. But I found spoke of that night again. But I found spoke of that night again. But I found out later out later out later that, you know, and as I became more that, you know, and as I became more that, you know, and as I became more engaged with all of this history, found engaged with all of this history, found engaged with all of this history, found out later that he told my mom that when out later that he told my mom that when out later that he told my mom that when they were under really high caliber they were under really high caliber they were under really high caliber shellfire, they would just pound the shellfire, they would just pound the shellfire, they would just pound the sides of their foxhole in frustration or sides of their foxhole in frustration or sides of their foxhole in frustration or not frustration, but just terror, fear, not frustration, but just terror, fear, not frustration, but just terror, fear, and frustration. and frustration. and frustration. And it was just this act of sheer And it was just this act of sheer And it was just this act of sheer desperation. And that was, you know, desperation. And that was, you know, desperation. And that was, you know, that that was this Pavlavian response to that that was this Pavlavian response to that that was this Pavlavian response to that scene in Patton, him pounding on that scene in Patton, him pounding on that scene in Patton, him pounding on the refrigerator. That I never s like the refrigerator. That I never s like the refrigerator. That I never s like that was the most physical that was the most physical that was the most physical manifestation, manifestation, manifestation, the most physically overt manifestation the most physically overt manifestation the most physically overt manifestation of anything I ever saw. I never saw of anything I ever saw. I never saw of anything I ever saw. I never saw anything like that happen again. And my anything like that happen again. And my anything like that happen again. And my dad never never spoke of that. Um, and I dad never never spoke of that. Um, and I dad never never spoke of that. Um, and I actually did not write that about that actually did not write that about that actually did not write that about that in my book, but

in my book, but in my book, but every, you know, and then I'll use every, you know, and then I'll use every, you know, and then I'll use another example. Um, a lot less intense, another example. Um, a lot less intense, another example. Um, a lot less intense, but but no less significant. I remember but but no less significant. I remember but but no less significant. I remember when with the old breed came out um and when with the old breed came out um and when with the old breed came out um and you know my dad autographed a copy of it you know my dad autographed a copy of it you know my dad autographed a copy of it for my 17th birthday for my 17th birthday for my 17th birthday and I remember sitting down and reading and I remember sitting down and reading and I remember sitting down and reading it and the part on Ingressibbus which is it and the part on Ingressibbus which is it and the part on Ingressibbus which is was part of the Peloo operation when was part of the Peloo operation when was part of the Peloo operation when they're at the bunker they get get into they're at the bunker they get get into they're at the bunker they get get into a big firefight they end up killing like a big firefight they end up killing like a big firefight they end up killing like 17 Japanese soldiers um and you know the 17 Japanese soldiers um and you know the 17 Japanese soldiers um and you know the the one where the Amtrak had just the one where the Amtrak had just the one where the Amtrak had just blasted a hole in the side of the blasted a hole in the side of the blasted a hole in the side of the bunker. Uh my dad's standing there with bunker. Uh my dad's standing there with bunker. Uh my dad's standing there with his car being a Japanese soldier appears his car being a Japanese soldier appears his car being a Japanese soldier appears in the opening and he's trying to in the opening and he's trying to in the opening and he's trying to activate the percussion cap on a grenade activate the percussion cap on a grenade activate the percussion cap on a grenade to throw it. And my dad shoots him, to throw it. And my dad shoots him, to throw it. And my dad shoots him, empties his clip into the guy's chest. empties his clip into the guy's chest. empties his clip into the guy's chest. And the way he described the feeling it And the way he described the feeling it And the way he described the feeling it gave him when his bullets were tearing gave him when his bullets were tearing gave him when his bullets were tearing into this man's chest and he, you know, into this man's chest and he, you know, into this man's chest and he, you know, and that of course speaks to the kind of and that of course speaks to the kind of and that of course speaks to the kind of guy that my dad was, that he knew his guy that my dad was, that he knew his guy that my dad was, that he knew his job was to be there and kill the enemy.

job was to be there and kill the enemy. job was to be there and kill the enemy. And yet he looked at his carbine and And yet he looked at his carbine and And yet he looked at his carbine and soberly reflected. His exact words were soberly reflected. His exact words were soberly reflected. His exact words were he said, "I realized that my sober he said, "I realized that my sober he said, "I realized that my sober reflections were the modeling reflections were the modeling reflections were the modeling meditations of a fool. meditations of a fool. meditations of a fool. But to read that as a as a 15, 16 year But to read that as a as a 15, 16 year But to read that as a as a 15, 16 year old kid, well 17, I guess, you know, and old kid, well 17, I guess, you know, and old kid, well 17, I guess, you know, and I mean I felt, you know, a sense of I mean I felt, you know, a sense of I mean I felt, you know, a sense of pride. I mean like this is my this is my pride. I mean like this is my this is my pride. I mean like this is my this is my dad. I mean we all grew, you know, Dan, dad. I mean we all grew, you know, Dan, dad. I mean we all grew, you know, Dan, we grew up watching the same World War we grew up watching the same World War we grew up watching the same World War II movies. and to read like here's my II movies. and to read like here's my II movies. and to read like here's my dad doing the very thing that I'm seeing dad doing the very thing that I'm seeing dad doing the very thing that I'm seeing done in these movies. It was done in these movies. It was done in these movies. It was I felt a sense of pride but also in I felt a sense of pride but also in I felt a sense of pride but also in later years and of course writing my own later years and of course writing my own later years and of course writing my own book I read reread and reread with the book I read reread and reread with the book I read reread and reread with the old breed numerous times. Um, old breed numerous times. Um, old breed numerous times. Um, and I feel the same pride I felt in him and I feel the same pride I felt in him and I feel the same pride I felt in him then, but now it's balanced with an then, but now it's balanced with an then, but now it's balanced with an appreciation for the fact that, you appreciation for the fact that, you appreciation for the fact that, you know, here's a guy who was disgusted by know, here's a guy who was disgusted by know, here's a guy who was disgusted by what they had to do, yet he did it what they had to do, yet he did it what they had to do, yet he did it bravely. You know, he he he could bravely. You know, he he he could bravely. You know, he he he could juxtapose the performance of his duty juxtapose the performance of his duty juxtapose the performance of his duty and yet still feel sadness and yet still feel sadness and yet still feel sadness at at this killing field that was Peloo at at this killing field that was Peloo at at this killing field that was Peloo and that was Okinawa. And you know, the and that was Okinawa. And you know, the and that was Okinawa. And you know, the fact that he he could do his duty fact that he he could do his duty fact that he he could do his duty bravely and yet still feel saddened and bravely and yet still feel saddened and bravely and yet still feel saddened and disgusted by what it all entailed.

disgusted by what it all entailed. disgusted by what it all entailed. You know, that's kind of and you know You know, that's kind of and you know You know, that's kind of and you know this better than anyone, but I mean this better than anyone, but I mean this better than anyone, but I mean that's one of the things that's always that's one of the things that's always that's one of the things that's always made your dad stand out and why I why I made your dad stand out and why I why I made your dad stand out and why I why I think he captures, you know, it's it's think he captures, you know, it's it's think he captures, you know, it's it's funny. So much of his fame and notoriety funny. So much of his fame and notoriety funny. So much of his fame and notoriety has come since he's left us, but how has come since he's left us, but how has come since he's left us, but how much his humanity is what sort of made much his humanity is what sort of made much his humanity is what sort of made him uh apart from the crowds cuz you him uh apart from the crowds cuz you him uh apart from the crowds cuz you know, you said it, we we grew up in an know, you said it, we we grew up in an know, you said it, we we grew up in an era which the Second World War seemed a era which the Second World War seemed a era which the Second World War seemed a long time ago and yet as we got older long time ago and yet as we got older long time ago and yet as we got older and I look back on it now, I realize, my and I look back on it now, I realize, my and I look back on it now, I realize, my goodness, it was all around us. It had goodness, it was all around us. It had goodness, it was all around us. It had just ended 20 years ago basically. Um, just ended 20 years ago basically. Um, just ended 20 years ago basically. Um, and you have these guys walking around and you have these guys walking around and you have these guys walking around with you in your society. At the 50th with you in your society. At the 50th with you in your society. At the 50th anniversary of D-Day, there was a uh a anniversary of D-Day, there was a uh a anniversary of D-Day, there was a uh a national uh um opinion piece that was national uh um opinion piece that was national uh um opinion piece that was printed by an army psychologist and he printed by an army psychologist and he printed by an army psychologist and he was talking I I remember the term was was talking I I remember the term was was talking I I remember the term was the murderer who lives next door to you the murderer who lives next door to you the murderer who lives next door to you or something like that. And the or something like that. And the or something like that. And the implication was that you don't know that implication was that you don't know that implication was that you don't know that that nice neighbor of a certain age that nice neighbor of a certain age that nice neighbor of a certain age living next door to you, you know, living next door to you, you know, living next door to you, you know, killed 25 people or something and you're killed 25 people or something and you're killed 25 people or something and you're not afraid of him. You don't and and yet not afraid of him. You don't and and yet not afraid of him. You don't and and yet while he's, you know, offering to mow while he's, you know, offering to mow while he's, you know, offering to mow your lawn and living a normal life, as your lawn and living a normal life, as your lawn and living a normal life, as far as you're concerned, he is living far as you're concerned, he is living far as you're concerned, he is living every day with what happened 20 25 in every day with what happened 20 25 in every day with what happened 20 25 in this case, you know, all those years this case, you know, all those years this case, you know, all those years ago. Um, and and and so your father fell ago. Um, and and and so your father fell ago. Um, and and and so your father fell into a category of man I didn't normally into a category of man I didn't normally into a category of man I didn't normally run into because normally when I would run into because normally when I would run into because normally when I would interview veterans, um, and they used to interview veterans, um, and they used to interview veterans, um, and they used to encourage us to do that back in history encourage us to do that back in history encourage us to do that back in history class, you know, go find a veteran and class, you know, go find a veteran and class, you know, go find a veteran and talk about him. And in general, the rule talk about him. And in general, the rule talk about him. And in general, the rule was the more combat they saw, the less

was the more combat they saw, the less was the more combat they saw, the less they were willing to talk about it. And they were willing to talk about it. And they were willing to talk about it. And a lot of the people, like my stepdad a lot of the people, like my stepdad a lot of the people, like my stepdad knew a guy up in Albany, Oregon, who'd knew a guy up in Albany, Oregon, who'd knew a guy up in Albany, Oregon, who'd seen a ton of combat, and he was excited seen a ton of combat, and he was excited seen a ton of combat, and he was excited to take me up there so I could interview to take me up there so I could interview to take me up there so I could interview him. and we got up there and he refused him. and we got up there and he refused him. and we got up there and he refused at the last minute to talk to us. He was at the last minute to talk to us. He was at the last minute to talk to us. He was a guy drowning in alcohol every day was a guy drowning in alcohol every day was a guy drowning in alcohol every day was something from that war. And so many of something from that war. And so many of something from that war. And so many of those guys ended up that way. And then those guys ended up that way. And then those guys ended up that way. And then there's a third kind like I grew up next there's a third kind like I grew up next there's a third kind like I grew up next to a Air Force colonel who uh bombed to a Air Force colonel who uh bombed to a Air Force colonel who uh bombed people from heights. He was a fighter people from heights. He was a fighter people from heights. He was a fighter pilot mostly, but he used to say, "I pilot mostly, but he used to say, "I pilot mostly, but he used to say, "I never saw the people on the ground." And never saw the people on the ground." And never saw the people on the ground." And so it changes the experience. Your so it changes the experience. Your so it changes the experience. Your father saw the people on the ground, father saw the people on the ground, father saw the people on the ground, went through the whole thing, stayed went through the whole thing, stayed went through the whole thing, stayed really human afterwards, and was able to really human afterwards, and was able to really human afterwards, and was able to talk and teach about it. That's a pretty talk and teach about it. That's a pretty talk and teach about it. That's a pretty rare person, don't you think? Well, I rare person, don't you think? Well, I rare person, don't you think? Well, I do. And, you know, I remember do. And, you know, I remember do. And, you know, I remember to go back to something you said just a to go back to something you said just a to go back to something you said just a moment ago, Dan. I had a lot of friends moment ago, Dan. I had a lot of friends moment ago, Dan. I had a lot of friends who, you know, I' we'd be at I' I'd who, you know, I' we'd be at I' I'd who, you know, I' we'd be at I' I'd spend the night with them on a Friday spend the night with them on a Friday spend the night with them on a Friday night and and a World War II movie would night and and a World War II movie would night and and a World War II movie would come on and we'd sit there and watch it come on and we'd sit there and watch it come on and we'd sit there and watch it and their dad would be in the room and, and their dad would be in the room and, and their dad would be in the room and, you know, and of course I mean here we you know, and of course I mean here we you know, and of course I mean here we were, you know, we're 12, 13 years old, were, you know, we're 12, 13 years old, were, you know, we're 12, 13 years old, 10, 11, whatever. And and the dad's 10, 11, whatever. And and the dad's 10, 11, whatever. And and the dad's sitting there and I knew for a fact that sitting there and I knew for a fact that sitting there and I knew for a fact that this guy had not seen combat. I knew this guy had not seen combat. I knew this guy had not seen combat. I knew that this guy had not been in World War that this guy had not been in World War that this guy had not been in World War II. And yet he'd sit there, oh yeah, it II. And yet he'd sit there, oh yeah, it II. And yet he'd sit there, oh yeah, it no it wasn't anything like that. Oh no it wasn't anything like that. Oh no it wasn't anything like that. Oh yeah, it was just that's exactly like it yeah, it was just that's exactly like it yeah, it was just that's exactly like it was, you know, and and then I mean like was, you know, and and then I mean like was, you know, and and then I mean like my the difference was it's like they my the difference was it's like they my the difference was it's like they were enjoying the movie but kind of

were enjoying the movie but kind of were enjoying the movie but kind of reminding us that they were the man in reminding us that they were the man in reminding us that they were the man in the house, you know, that that's the way the house, you know, that that's the way the house, you know, that that's the way it felt, right? The difference was my it felt, right? The difference was my it felt, right? The difference was my dad wouldn't even watch the movie, you dad wouldn't even watch the movie, you dad wouldn't even watch the movie, you know, like sitting down and watching know, like sitting down and watching know, like sitting down and watching Patton, that was an exceptional thing Patton, that was an exceptional thing Patton, that was an exceptional thing that my brother just talked him into, that my brother just talked him into, that my brother just talked him into, but he wouldn't watch World War II but he wouldn't watch World War II but he wouldn't watch World War II movies. Uh that that was the exception, movies. Uh that that was the exception, movies. Uh that that was the exception, not the rule. The rule was he did not not the rule. The rule was he did not not the rule. The rule was he did not appreciate or want to watch World War II appreciate or want to watch World War II appreciate or want to watch World War II movies. Then again, you know, if one of movies. Then again, you know, if one of movies. Then again, you know, if one of my buddies and and all my friends knew my buddies and and all my friends knew my buddies and and all my friends knew that he'd been a Marine in the Pacific that he'd been a Marine in the Pacific that he'd been a Marine in the Pacific and they knew that he'd seen a lot of and they knew that he'd seen a lot of and they knew that he'd seen a lot of combat. If you had a question, I mean, combat. If you had a question, I mean, combat. If you had a question, I mean, you could ask him a question and and and you could ask him a question and and and you could ask him a question and and and he would give you an answer, you know, he would give you an answer, you know, he would give you an answer, you know, and but he didn't he didn't arrandize, and but he didn't he didn't arrandize, and but he didn't he didn't arrandize, you know, he didn't dramatize it or try you know, he didn't dramatize it or try you know, he didn't dramatize it or try to, you know, give you the feeling that to, you know, give you the feeling that to, you know, give you the feeling that he was just telling a good story. And I he was just telling a good story. And I he was just telling a good story. And I and I saw some I saw some guys who did and I saw some I saw some guys who did and I saw some I saw some guys who did do that and there was something that do that and there was something that do that and there was something that just kind of struck me as disingenuous. just kind of struck me as disingenuous. just kind of struck me as disingenuous. And I think it was just because I knew I And I think it was just because I knew I And I think it was just because I knew I could go home to a guy who I knew what could go home to a guy who I knew what could go home to a guy who I knew what my dad had been through because hell he my dad had been through because hell he my dad had been through because hell he wrote a book about it and I read the wrote a book about it and I read the wrote a book about it and I read the book while he was writing it and I just book while he was writing it and I just book while he was writing it and I just knew his attitude about it and his knew his attitude about it and his knew his attitude about it and his attitude was yeah I'll tell you about it attitude was yeah I'll tell you about it attitude was yeah I'll tell you about it but don't think that I enjoyed it or but don't think that I enjoyed it or but don't think that I enjoyed it or don't think you're going to enjoy what don't think you're going to enjoy what don't think you're going to enjoy what you hear. So let me ask you this. Did it you hear. So let me ask you this. Did it you hear. So let me ask you this. Did it make any difference? Uh because I make any difference? Uh because I make any difference? Uh because I generally won't watch uh dramas and generally won't watch uh dramas and generally won't watch uh dramas and stuff like that. I can't buy into the uh stuff like that. I can't buy into the uh stuff like that. I can't buy into the uh sense of disbelief stuff, but but I'll sense of disbelief stuff, but but I'll sense of disbelief stuff, but but I'll watch documentaries. Did it matter? Did watch documentaries. Did it matter? Did watch documentaries. Did it matter? Did your dad, for example, watch any your dad, for example, watch any your dad, for example, watch any documentaries about uh uh the various documentaries about uh uh the various documentaries about uh uh the various events he took part in?

events he took part in? events he took part in? He did in later years. Uh because He did in later years. Uh because He did in later years. Uh because remember, Dan, when you and I were remember, Dan, when you and I were remember, Dan, when you and I were really young, you know, cable television really young, you know, cable television really young, you know, cable television was just coming just becoming extant. Um was just coming just becoming extant. Um was just coming just becoming extant. Um and then, you know, in later years, and then, you know, in later years, and then, you know, in later years, yeah, he did. And in fact, um, I yeah, he did. And in fact, um, I yeah, he did. And in fact, um, I remember the 50th anniversary of Pearl remember the 50th anniversary of Pearl remember the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor Harbor Harbor and my mother told me this and and I and my mother told me this and and I and my mother told me this and and I think I remember my dad talking about it think I remember my dad talking about it think I remember my dad talking about it some. There was some documentary on it some. There was some documentary on it some. There was some documentary on it and he he said, "Well, that's it. You and he he said, "Well, that's it. You and he he said, "Well, that's it. You know, this is the 50th anniversary of know, this is the 50th anniversary of know, this is the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. They're making a big deal Pearl Harbor. They're making a big deal Pearl Harbor. They're making a big deal out of it because it's the 50th. After out of it because it's the 50th. After out of it because it's the 50th. After this, nobody will care. People will just this, nobody will care. People will just this, nobody will care. People will just forget." forget." forget." And and then of course there were the And and then of course there were the And and then of course there were the documentaries that he was a part of. Uh documentaries that he was a part of. Uh documentaries that he was a part of. Uh you know there were several back in the you know there were several back in the you know there were several back in the 90s. A couple of them were Lou Rita 90s. A couple of them were Lou Rita 90s. A couple of them were Lou Rita productions that I thought were just productions that I thought were just productions that I thought were just outstanding. Um and he did watch those. outstanding. Um and he did watch those. outstanding. Um and he did watch those. But um But um But um and I'm I'm sort of taking your question and I'm I'm sort of taking your question and I'm I'm sort of taking your question and bridging across to something kind of and bridging across to something kind of and bridging across to something kind of related but a little different if that's related but a little different if that's related but a little different if that's okay. Absolutely. You know, it was when okay. Absolutely. You know, it was when okay. Absolutely. You know, it was when he would be interviewed for a he would be interviewed for a he would be interviewed for a documentary on Pelu or Okinawa, documentary on Pelu or Okinawa, documentary on Pelu or Okinawa, it was always a really powerful thing, it was always a really powerful thing, it was always a really powerful thing, but we and the family almost got to but we and the family almost got to but we and the family almost got to where we hated to see it happen because where we hated to see it happen because where we hated to see it happen because it was exhausting to him. Um, and there it was exhausting to him. Um, and there it was exhausting to him. Um, and there was one that he did, I think it was in was one that he did, I think it was in was one that he did, I think it was in 1991 1991 1991 about Peloo,

about Peloo, about Peloo, and you know, he became emotional and you know, he became emotional and you know, he became emotional in describing it and and of course what in describing it and and of course what in describing it and and of course what made him emotional was talking about, made him emotional was talking about, made him emotional was talking about, you know, at the end of the Battle of you know, at the end of the Battle of you know, at the end of the Battle of Peloo and and how many dead there were Peloo and and how many dead there were Peloo and and how many dead there were and how they were just gone and it was and how they were just gone and it was and how they were just gone and it was such a tragic waste and it and it was such a tragic waste and it and it was such a tragic waste and it and it was tough, Dan. It was tough to to sit tough, Dan. It was tough to to sit tough, Dan. It was tough to to sit there, you know, and see your dad get there, you know, and see your dad get there, you know, and see your dad get emotional over that. Um, emotional over that. Um, emotional over that. Um, but it I I saw from the standpoint of but it I I saw from the standpoint of but it I I saw from the standpoint of being his son, I actually didn't go into being his son, I actually didn't go into being his son, I actually didn't go into this too much in my book, but I saw how this too much in my book, but I saw how this too much in my book, but I saw how exhausting exhausting exhausting it was for him to sit there and relive it was for him to sit there and relive it was for him to sit there and relive all of that for an interview all of that for an interview all of that for an interview because he he honestly he would go do because he he honestly he would go do because he he honestly he would go do that and then, you know, like they would that and then, you know, like they would that and then, you know, like they would go out of they'd go up to Minnesota or go out of they'd go up to Minnesota or go out of they'd go up to Minnesota or Washington DC or wherever to be a part Washington DC or wherever to be a part Washington DC or wherever to be a part of this documentary and then and and of this documentary and then and and of this documentary and then and and then he and my mom would come home and then he and my mom would come home and then he and my mom would come home and it was not uncommon that he would be it was not uncommon that he would be it was not uncommon that he would be sick for two weeks. Wow. sick for two weeks. Wow. sick for two weeks. Wow. You know, it was which was the one the You know, it was which was the one the You know, it was which was the one the one I think I first saw so I read with one I think I first saw so I read with one I think I first saw so I read with the old breed sometime in the 1980s.

the old breed sometime in the 1980s. the old breed sometime in the 1980s. I've read it many times since. Um but I've read it many times since. Um but I've read it many times since. Um but the first time I actually saw your dad the first time I actually saw your dad the first time I actually saw your dad was in one of those documentaries and I was in one of those documentaries and I was in one of those documentaries and I believe it was the Carlton films one uh believe it was the Carlton films one uh believe it was the Carlton films one uh that was in the UK. uh where he's the that was in the UK. uh where he's the that was in the UK. uh where he's the very first voice you hear in the whole very first voice you hear in the whole very first voice you hear in the whole series and it's multi-part series and series and it's multi-part series and series and it's multi-part series and the very first thing you see is your dad the very first thing you see is your dad the very first thing you see is your dad um talking about and and I think like I um talking about and and I think like I um talking about and and I think like I said we'll try to use a little clip of said we'll try to use a little clip of said we'll try to use a little clip of it about about the front line is really it about about the front line is really it about about the front line is really where the war is. The front line is where the war is. The front line is where the war is. The front line is really where the war is. And anybody a h really where the war is. And anybody a h really where the war is. And anybody a h 100red yards behind the front lines 100red yards behind the front lines 100red yards behind the front lines doesn't really know what it's like. doesn't really know what it's like. doesn't really know what it's like. And this every time I hear people talk And this every time I hear people talk And this every time I hear people talk about sending troops into combat, I just about sending troops into combat, I just about sending troops into combat, I just cringe because I I think to myself, cringe because I I think to myself, cringe because I I think to myself, these people that send them have no these people that send them have no these people that send them have no concept of what hell is. And there's an concept of what hell is. And there's an concept of what hell is. And there's an old Marine poem that was written by an old Marine poem that was written by an old Marine poem that was written by an anonymous anonymous anonymous World War II Marine. It says, "When he World War II Marine. It says, "When he World War II Marine. It says, "When he When he gets to heaven to St. Peter, When he gets to heaven to St. Peter, When he gets to heaven to St. Peter, he'll tell another Marine reporting, he'll tell another Marine reporting, he'll tell another Marine reporting, "Sir, I've saved my time in hell."

"Sir, I've saved my time in hell." "Sir, I've saved my time in hell." That was, let me see, it was Hell in the That was, let me see, it was Hell in the That was, let me see, it was Hell in the Pacific. Uh, Pacific. Uh, Pacific. Uh, yeah. And that was that was a British It yeah. And that was that was a British It yeah. And that was that was a British It was a British production, you said. And was a British production, you said. And was a British production, you said. And the reason it was so incredible to me the reason it was so incredible to me the reason it was so incredible to me was I saw footage in there that was not was I saw footage in there that was not was I saw footage in there that was not allowed in the United States at the time allowed in the United States at the time allowed in the United States at the time I saw it. And you know when you you know I saw it. And you know when you you know I saw it. And you know when you you know and you you just growing up as a Second and you you just growing up as a Second and you you just growing up as a Second World War fan, I was a history major. World War fan, I was a history major. World War fan, I was a history major. We'd seen almost every piece of the We'd seen almost every piece of the We'd seen almost every piece of the Second World War footage that any Second World War footage that any Second World War footage that any documentary in our country showed and documentary in our country showed and documentary in our country showed and they had stuff I had not seen. And so I they had stuff I had not seen. And so I they had stuff I had not seen. And so I actually bought that film from the UK in actually bought that film from the UK in actually bought that film from the UK in a format I couldn't view just to make a format I couldn't view just to make a format I couldn't view just to make sure I'd have it forever. And your dad sure I'd have it forever. And your dad sure I'd have it forever. And your dad is the very first voice you hear. I'm is the very first voice you hear. I'm is the very first voice you hear. I'm I'm trying to remember because I'm trying to remember because I'm trying to remember because honestly there were so many he was in honestly there were so many he was in honestly there were so many he was in there they start to run together. Um there they start to run together. Um there they start to run together. Um but I I thought that might have been but I I thought that might have been but I I thought that might have been around 1999 around 1999 around 1999 something like that. Yeah, that that something like that. Yeah, that that something like that. Yeah, that that sounds maybe or middle 90s somewhere.

sounds maybe or middle 90s somewhere. sounds maybe or middle 90s somewhere. Yeah, because my wife and I got married Yeah, because my wife and I got married Yeah, because my wife and I got married in 2000 December of 2000 and it was in 2000 December of 2000 and it was in 2000 December of 2000 and it was right before we got married. So, um, it right before we got married. So, um, it right before we got married. So, um, it might have been late 99, early 2000, but might have been late 99, early 2000, but might have been late 99, early 2000, but I I do I remember when that gentleman I I do I remember when that gentleman I I do I remember when that gentleman came to the house to talk to my dad came to the house to talk to my dad came to the house to talk to my dad about, uh, making that. Um, he he's a about, uh, making that. Um, he he's a about, uh, making that. Um, he he's a huge piece of that. He's almost the huge piece of that. He's almost the huge piece of that. He's almost the Shelby foot of that whole series. Shelby foot of that whole series. Shelby foot of that whole series. Well, that that's Yeah, I mean um Yeah, Well, that that's Yeah, I mean um Yeah, Well, that that's Yeah, I mean um Yeah, I I do remember that. um that I I do remember that. um that I I do remember that. um that yeah it was just so yeah it was just so yeah it was just so in fact if if I remember correctly my in fact if if I remember correctly my in fact if if I remember correctly my brother and I had a conversation about brother and I had a conversation about brother and I had a conversation about that because that because that because he didn't want my dad to do it because he didn't want my dad to do it because he didn't want my dad to do it because he'd already seen my dad go through this he'd already seen my dad go through this he'd already seen my dad go through this process a few times uh because that was process a few times uh because that was process a few times uh because that was certainly not the first documentary that certainly not the first documentary that certainly not the first documentary that my father was in. And if it was 1999 you my father was in. And if it was 1999 you my father was in. And if it was 1999 you know 98 99 something like that then that know 98 99 something like that then that know 98 99 something like that then that wasn't long before my dad passed away.

wasn't long before my dad passed away. wasn't long before my dad passed away. Um, so he sounded more frail and he Um, so he sounded more frail and he Um, so he sounded more frail and he looked more frail than he had been in looked more frail than he had been in looked more frail than he had been in the earlier ones. But, um, but that was the earlier ones. But, um, but that was the earlier ones. But, um, but that was a pretty intense a pretty intense a pretty intense a pretty intense a pretty intense a pretty intense production. I do remember that. Did your production. I do remember that. Did your production. I do remember that. Did your dad know uh before he passed that he was dad know uh before he passed that he was dad know uh before he passed that he was going to be fictionalized in a drama going to be fictionalized in a drama going to be fictionalized in a drama someday? No. Um, he didn't. And that someday? No. Um, he didn't. And that someday? No. Um, he didn't. And that that that leads that, you know, we could that that leads that, you know, we could that that leads that, you know, we could segue that into a broader question. I segue that into a broader question. I segue that into a broader question. I mean what I I I have to say this and mean what I I I have to say this and mean what I I I have to say this and it's not mock you know it's not feigning it's not mock you know it's not feigning it's not mock you know it's not feigning modesty you know Allah my dad at all um modesty you know Allah my dad at all um modesty you know Allah my dad at all um one time you know like he got letters one time you know like he got letters one time you know like he got letters every day from people who read with the every day from people who read with the every day from people who read with the old breed would write him and he he sat old breed would write him and he he sat old breed would write him and he he sat there he tried to answer every letter there he tried to answer every letter there he tried to answer every letter and I just remember and I just remember and I just remember there was one from somebody who just was there was one from somebody who just was there was one from somebody who just was was going on and on about it and he he was going on and on about it and he he was going on and on about it and he he looked at my mom and he said, "What is looked at my mom and he said, "What is looked at my mom and he said, "What is it about that damn book that people just it about that damn book that people just it about that damn book that people just can't get over?" And can't get over?" And can't get over?" And she she just said, "I I think it's your she she just said, "I I think it's your she she just said, "I I think it's your humanity, humanity, humanity, you know, and and one of the the Bruce, you know, and and one of the the Bruce, you know, and and one of the the Bruce, our friend Bruce McKenna, who was our our friend Bruce McKenna, who was our our friend Bruce McKenna, who was our main point of contact when the Pacific main point of contact when the Pacific main point of contact when the Pacific was being made, was being made, was being made, I've asked him because I know what with I've asked him because I know what with I've asked him because I know what with the old breed means to people." And I the old breed means to people." And I the old breed means to people." And I say this with total humbleness and say this with total humbleness and say this with total humbleness and honor. I've seen what that book and and honor. I've seen what that book and and honor. I've seen what that book and and that seeing what that book has meant to that seeing what that book has meant to that seeing what that book has meant to people really helped motivate me to people really helped motivate me to people really helped motivate me to write my own. And

write my own. And write my own. And I've asked people, you know, what is it? I've asked people, you know, what is it? I've asked people, you know, what is it? What do you think it is about Eugene What do you think it is about Eugene What do you think it is about Eugene Sledge that seems to just be captivating Sledge that seems to just be captivating Sledge that seems to just be captivating to people? And I know Bruce McKenna to people? And I know Bruce McKenna to people? And I know Bruce McKenna said, Henry, it was his humanity. the said, Henry, it was his humanity. the said, Henry, it was his humanity. the fact that he could retain that, fact that he could retain that, fact that he could retain that, you know, that that that veneer of you know, that that that veneer of you know, that that that veneer of decency and still do what he had to do, decency and still do what he had to do, decency and still do what he had to do, you know, but the fact that he could you know, but the fact that he could you know, but the fact that he could just stay the decent human being that he just stay the decent human being that he just stay the decent human being that he was. And I'm not saying that many was. And I'm not saying that many was. And I'm not saying that many thousands and thousands of other men thousands and thousands of other men thousands and thousands of other men didn't do that, you know, but I mean my didn't do that, you know, but I mean my didn't do that, you know, but I mean my my father did write a book that is my father did write a book that is my father did write a book that is wellknown. I mean, you know, so he kind wellknown. I mean, you know, so he kind wellknown. I mean, you know, so he kind of singled himself out there. Well, but of singled himself out there. Well, but of singled himself out there. Well, but let's let's make a distinction. I mean, let's let's make a distinction. I mean, let's let's make a distinction. I mean, these aren't bad people. These are these aren't bad people. These are these aren't bad people. These are people who've been traumatized, right? people who've been traumatized, right? people who've been traumatized, right? So, when we talk about people that are So, when we talk about people that are So, when we talk about people that are having uh a harder time retaining their having uh a harder time retaining their having uh a harder time retaining their humanity than your dad, it's because of humanity than your dad, it's because of humanity than your dad, it's because of what they went through. What makes your what they went through. What makes your what they went through. What makes your dad uh somewhat different is most people dad uh somewhat different is most people dad uh somewhat different is most people don't go through that and maintain. I don't go through that and maintain. I don't go through that and maintain. I mean, look, I I'll tell you a story. I I mean, look, I I'll tell you a story. I I mean, look, I I'll tell you a story. I I know a nurse who's of Japanese descent, know a nurse who's of Japanese descent, know a nurse who's of Japanese descent, and she had a an old gentleman at the and she had a an old gentleman at the and she had a an old gentleman at the hospital one day ask for a different hospital one day ask for a different hospital one day ask for a different nurse. He just couldn't have a Japanese nurse. He just couldn't have a Japanese nurse. He just couldn't have a Japanese a descendant of Japanese people as his a descendant of Japanese people as his a descendant of Japanese people as his nurse. And he wasn't being mean about nurse. And he wasn't being mean about nurse. And he wasn't being mean about it. He wasn't being racist about it. He it. He wasn't being racist about it. He it. He wasn't being racist about it. He just couldn't, right? Because of what just couldn't, right? Because of what just couldn't, right? Because of what he'd done, been through the whole thing.

he'd done, been through the whole thing. he'd done, been through the whole thing. I would think that most of us would be I would think that most of us would be I would think that most of us would be or or we'd be in the position of that or or we'd be in the position of that or or we'd be in the position of that guy, the veteran in Albany I went up to guy, the veteran in Albany I went up to guy, the veteran in Albany I went up to talk to who literally had to drown his talk to who literally had to drown his talk to who literally had to drown his memories every day cuz that's the only memories every day cuz that's the only memories every day cuz that's the only way he got to the next day. Your father way he got to the next day. Your father way he got to the next day. Your father coming off. So, I mean, look, we know coming off. So, I mean, look, we know coming off. So, I mean, look, we know he's traumatized. You can't you can't he's traumatized. You can't you can't he's traumatized. You can't you can't watch Patton without hitting the watch Patton without hitting the watch Patton without hitting the refrigerator with his fist, right? But refrigerator with his fist, right? But refrigerator with his fist, right? But that's a whole different level than so that's a whole different level than so that's a whole different level than so many of these other people. And I think many of these other people. And I think many of these other people. And I think that and then his ability to tell you that and then his ability to tell you that and then his ability to tell you and share what he'd been through. That's and share what he'd been through. That's and share what he'd been through. That's a pretty unique individual because the a pretty unique individual because the a pretty unique individual because the more combat you see, the less not just more combat you see, the less not just more combat you see, the less not just willing you are to do that, but you and willing you are to do that, but you and willing you are to do that, but you and I both know Henry, as do all the combat I both know Henry, as do all the combat I both know Henry, as do all the combat veterans listening, that the problem is veterans listening, that the problem is veterans listening, that the problem is context, right? The civilians you're context, right? The civilians you're context, right? The civilians you're writing to don't have any context. So writing to don't have any context. So writing to don't have any context. So things that you would tell a buddy who things that you would tell a buddy who things that you would tell a buddy who served with you that would seem served with you that would seem served with you that would seem perfectly normal is not going to strike perfectly normal is not going to strike perfectly normal is not going to strike those other people the right way cuz those other people the right way cuz those other people the right way cuz they weren't there. They don't they weren't there. They don't they weren't there. They don't understand the context and it's really understand the context and it's really understand the context and it's really hard to explain it to you. And so that's hard to explain it to you. And so that's hard to explain it to you. And so that's why they talk to each other when they why they talk to each other when they why they talk to each other when they get together at their reunions in a way get together at their reunions in a way get together at their reunions in a way they can't talk to the rest of us and they can't talk to the rest of us and they can't talk to the rest of us and share what they've been through, what share what they've been through, what share what they've been through, what they know, what they learned. Your they know, what they learned. Your they know, what they learned. Your father was able to do that. That makes father was able to do that. That makes father was able to do that. That makes him kind of different. Well, yeah. And him kind of different. Well, yeah. And him kind of different. Well, yeah. And you know, as as again speaking from the you know, as as again speaking from the you know, as as again speaking from the context of of being his son, I we had context of of being his son, I we had context of of being his son, I we had some amazing conversations and and you some amazing conversations and and you some amazing conversations and and you know, Dan, because you've read my book, know, Dan, because you've read my book, know, Dan, because you've read my book, um we had some amazing conversations um we had some amazing conversations um we had some amazing conversations about his his experiences, about his his experiences, about his his experiences, but he always kept things I mean, they but he always kept things I mean, they but he always kept things I mean, they could be starkly real conversations and could be starkly real conversations and could be starkly real conversations and yet he kept things on a certain level of

yet he kept things on a certain level of yet he kept things on a certain level of decency, you know. And so I I and I decency, you know. And so I I and I decency, you know. And so I I and I think I wrote about this. I I remember think I wrote about this. I I remember think I wrote about this. I I remember this so well. I can't remember how old I this so well. I can't remember how old I this so well. I can't remember how old I was, but I might have been, you know, was, but I might have been, you know, was, but I might have been, you know, 18, 19, 20, or I might have been 14, 15. 18, 19, 20, or I might have been 14, 15. 18, 19, 20, or I might have been 14, 15. I'm not sure. But I had walked over to I'm not sure. But I had walked over to I'm not sure. But I had walked over to his to to the University of Monaval his to to the University of Monaval his to to the University of Monaval campus, and we we were within walking campus, and we we were within walking campus, and we we were within walking distance, our house was. And I was distance, our house was. And I was distance, our house was. And I was walking into my dad's office to go see walking into my dad's office to go see walking into my dad's office to go see him. him. him. And I'm walk I'm walking up to the door, And I'm walk I'm walking up to the door, And I'm walk I'm walking up to the door, you know, he couldn't see me, nor could you know, he couldn't see me, nor could you know, he couldn't see me, nor could the person he was talking to. I could the person he was talking to. I could the person he was talking to. I could hear him inside in the office talking hear him inside in the office talking hear him inside in the office talking and and and you know my dad he cursed and and and you know my dad he cursed and and and you know my dad he cursed but he didn't use four-letter words. You but he didn't use four-letter words. You but he didn't use four-letter words. You know he he he did not do that. As I'm know he he he did not do that. As I'm know he he he did not do that. As I'm walking up to the door, walking up to the door, walking up to the door, he's talking to this guy he's talking to this guy he's talking to this guy and I I I heard him say, "Yeah, he I and I I I heard him say, "Yeah, he I and I I I heard him say, "Yeah, he I knew him on Peloo. got the [ __ ] knocked knew him on Peloo. got the [ __ ] knocked knew him on Peloo. got the [ __ ] knocked out of him by a close shell hit. out of him by a close shell hit. out of him by a close shell hit. And I it literally stopped me in my And I it literally stopped me in my And I it literally stopped me in my tracks, Dan, because I'd never heard my tracks, Dan, because I'd never heard my tracks, Dan, because I'd never heard my dad say that before.

dad say that before. dad say that before. And I thought, man, he, you know, he's And I thought, man, he, you know, he's And I thought, man, he, you know, he's he's talking to somebody like he's never he's talking to somebody like he's never he's talking to somebody like he's never talked to me before. talked to me before. talked to me before. And it was somebody I think who had been And it was somebody I think who had been And it was somebody I think who had been in Vietnam. Um, but I I honestly can't in Vietnam. Um, but I I honestly can't in Vietnam. Um, but I I honestly can't remember that part. But I I walked on, remember that part. But I I walked on, remember that part. But I I walked on, you know, I kind of recovered myself and you know, I kind of recovered myself and you know, I kind of recovered myself and walk on in his office and instantly he walk on in his office and instantly he walk on in his office and instantly he just, "Hey, Big Ch, how's it going?" You just, "Hey, Big Ch, how's it going?" You just, "Hey, Big Ch, how's it going?" You know, and he was all happy to see me and know, and he was all happy to see me and know, and he was all happy to see me and but but what I'm trying to illustrate is but but what I'm trying to illustrate is but but what I'm trying to illustrate is in that moment he was in another place in that moment he was in another place in that moment he was in another place and he was talking to somebody who he and he was talking to somebody who he and he was talking to somebody who he felt could understand, you know, felt could understand, you know, felt could understand, you know, something obviously I couldn't something obviously I couldn't something obviously I couldn't understand because I'd never been there. understand because I'd never been there. understand because I'd never been there. So, you just bring up something I'd like So, you just bring up something I'd like So, you just bring up something I'd like to segue into myself. If you talk about to segue into myself. If you talk about to segue into myself. If you talk about the Vietnam War and I remember when we the Vietnam War and I remember when we the Vietnam War and I remember when we were growing up, I mean I they made us were growing up, I mean I they made us were growing up, I mean I they made us take courses and it was actually 60 take courses and it was actually 60 take courses and it was actually 60 Minutes I think did a whole uh segment Minutes I think did a whole uh segment Minutes I think did a whole uh segment once on the on the popularity of these once on the on the popularity of these once on the on the popularity of these Vietnam courses that were springing up Vietnam courses that were springing up Vietnam courses that were springing up in college when I was in college. And we in college when I was in college. And we in college when I was in college. And we used to have and every every session used to have and every every session used to have and every every session you'd have a veteran come in and talk to you'd have a veteran come in and talk to you'd have a veteran come in and talk to you from that war. And there was a lot you from that war. And there was a lot you from that war. And there was a lot of reading that we did that talked about of reading that we did that talked about of reading that we did that talked about the difference between the way that the difference between the way that the difference between the way that generation was working through uh their generation was working through uh their generation was working through uh their war experiences versus what the Second war experiences versus what the Second war experiences versus what the Second World War generation did for theirs. a World War generation did for theirs. a World War generation did for theirs. a much quieter man in the gray flannel much quieter man in the gray flannel much quieter man in the gray flannel suit sort of thing versus a generation suit sort of thing versus a generation suit sort of thing versus a generation that sort of had a mass psychology that sort of had a mass psychology that sort of had a mass psychology experiment looking into their souls and experiment looking into their souls and experiment looking into their souls and trying to work the the the long road trying to work the the the long road trying to work the the the long road home all those kinds of things. What was home all those kinds of things. What was home all those kinds of things. What was your dad's opinion both on that war and your dad's opinion both on that war and your dad's opinion both on that war and the difference between the way that the difference between the way that the difference between the way that generation was working out what they generation was working out what they generation was working out what they went through the combat veterans I'm

went through the combat veterans I'm went through the combat veterans I'm talking about and the way your dad's talking about and the way your dad's talking about and the way your dad's brethren did. brethren did. brethren did. I think you know that that I have really I think you know that that I have really I think you know that that I have really clear memories of that because clear memories of that because clear memories of that because some like in the early 70s some of my some like in the early 70s some of my some like in the early 70s some of my dad's uh students were young guys coming dad's uh students were young guys coming dad's uh students were young guys coming home from Vietnam home from Vietnam home from Vietnam and he got to be really good friends and he got to be really good friends and he got to be really good friends with one was an army vet, one was a with one was an army vet, one was a with one was an army vet, one was a Marine and he got to be really good Marine and he got to be really good Marine and he got to be really good friends with these guys because they friends with these guys because they friends with these guys because they came home and were getting their lives came home and were getting their lives came home and were getting their lives together and trying to move forward. together and trying to move forward. together and trying to move forward. forward and and be productive citizens. forward and and be productive citizens. forward and and be productive citizens. Um, he admired that. He respected that. Um, he admired that. He respected that. Um, he admired that. He respected that. They respected him and admired him and They respected him and admired him and They respected him and admired him and they could they could connect with each they could they could connect with each they could they could connect with each other, you know, in a way that some other, you know, in a way that some other, you know, in a way that some other college freshman who literally had other college freshman who literally had other college freshman who literally had never done anything that that my dad never done anything that that my dad never done anything that that my dad just had a little bit more of a just had a little bit more of a just had a little bit more of a difficult time relating to. um he difficult time relating to. um he difficult time relating to. um he respected what they had done, but these respected what they had done, but these respected what they had done, but these were guys who didn't sit around and feel were guys who didn't sit around and feel were guys who didn't sit around and feel sorry for themselves and were moving on sorry for themselves and were moving on sorry for themselves and were moving on with their lives. Now, with their lives. Now, with their lives. Now, where it gets a little complicated with where it gets a little complicated with where it gets a little complicated with Vietnam, we all know that a lot of Vietnam, we all know that a lot of Vietnam, we all know that a lot of people came home from Vietnam and were people came home from Vietnam and were people came home from Vietnam and were treated very poorly. And that should treated very poorly. And that should treated very poorly. And that should have never happened. And and it's it's have never happened. And and it's it's have never happened. And and it's it's it's hard to think about that it's hard to think about that it's hard to think about that when you when you when you look at Vietnam veterans who maybe look at Vietnam veterans who maybe look at Vietnam veterans who maybe didn't respond well to that. Um and who didn't respond well to that. Um and who didn't respond well to that. Um and who and I'm I'm trying to say this without

and I'm I'm trying to say this without and I'm I'm trying to say this without sounding like I'm judging anybody, Dan, sounding like I'm judging anybody, Dan, sounding like I'm judging anybody, Dan, so please understand that, okay? so please understand that, okay? so please understand that, okay? But when my dad saw maybe a story on the But when my dad saw maybe a story on the But when my dad saw maybe a story on the news or something about, you know, a news or something about, you know, a news or something about, you know, a veteran of of Vietnam who was just veteran of of Vietnam who was just veteran of of Vietnam who was just outcasting himself from society and outcasting himself from society and outcasting himself from society and angry and bitter and angry and bitter and angry and bitter and turning to drugs and alcohol and and you turning to drugs and alcohol and and you turning to drugs and alcohol and and you know just and and I feel bad for the know just and and I feel bad for the know just and and I feel bad for the struggles that man was going through, struggles that man was going through, struggles that man was going through, but my you got to understand now here's but my you got to understand now here's but my you got to understand now here's a guy who'd been at Peloo in Okinawa. a guy who'd been at Peloo in Okinawa. a guy who'd been at Peloo in Okinawa. Here's a guy who lost some of his best Here's a guy who lost some of his best Here's a guy who lost some of his best friends in those two battles. He's friends in those two battles. He's friends in those two battles. He's looking at that and he's saying, "What looking at that and he's saying, "What looking at that and he's saying, "What you went through is no worse than what I you went through is no worse than what I you went through is no worse than what I went through." Probably not as bad. went through." Probably not as bad. went through." Probably not as bad. Well, you know, if you want to say that, Well, you know, if you want to say that, Well, you know, if you want to say that, by all means, say that. If he wanted to by all means, say that. If he wanted to by all means, say that. If he wanted to say that, he could say that. I'm not say that, he could say that. I'm not say that, he could say that. I'm not going to say that because I don't want going to say that because I don't want going to say that because I don't want anybody saying to me, "Well, he's trying anybody saying to me, "Well, he's trying anybody saying to me, "Well, he's trying to judge certain people." And I'm not. to judge certain people." And I'm not. to judge certain people." And I'm not. But I'm telling you, But I'm telling you, But I'm telling you, my dad was really good friends with some my dad was really good friends with some my dad was really good friends with some Vietnam vets, but they were the ones who Vietnam vets, but they were the ones who Vietnam vets, but they were the ones who were getting their lives together and were getting their lives together and were getting their lives together and moving on.

moving on. moving on. Anybody, I don't care, vet, anybody, it Anybody, I don't care, vet, anybody, it Anybody, I don't care, vet, anybody, it doesn't matter. My father didn't have a doesn't matter. My father didn't have a doesn't matter. My father didn't have a lot of tolerance for somebody who would lot of tolerance for somebody who would lot of tolerance for somebody who would sit around and drown themselves in sit around and drown themselves in sit around and drown themselves in alcohol or or worse drugs, you know, alcohol or or worse drugs, you know, alcohol or or worse drugs, you know, which became more prevalent later on and which became more prevalent later on and which became more prevalent later on and do nothing to better themselves or or do nothing to better themselves or or do nothing to better themselves or or better their situation. He whether better their situation. He whether better their situation. He whether rightly or wrongly he had no tolerance rightly or wrongly he had no tolerance rightly or wrongly he had no tolerance for that be because he's looking at it for that be because he's looking at it for that be because he's looking at it like okay like okay like okay I went through something every bit as I went through something every bit as I went through something every bit as bad if not worse. I came home and got bad if not worse. I came home and got bad if not worse. I came home and got myself together. myself together. myself together. And that was just the And that was just the And that was just the that's why I say I think I say somewhere that's why I say I think I say somewhere that's why I say I think I say somewhere in the closing pages of my book and I've in the closing pages of my book and I've in the closing pages of my book and I've said it many times. There was a side of said it many times. There was a side of said it many times. There was a side of him that was a hard ass and I don't I'm him that was a hard ass and I don't I'm him that was a hard ass and I don't I'm not talking about the kind that a big not talking about the kind that a big not talking about the kind that a big tough guy is going to go you were tough guy is going to go you were tough guy is going to go you were talking about grading. I remember like talking about grading. I remember like talking about grading. I remember like grading papers and and student conduct. grading papers and and student conduct. grading papers and and student conduct. Oh yes. Yeah. But I mean, I'm also Oh yes. Yeah. But I mean, I'm also Oh yes. Yeah. But I mean, I'm also saying it from the standpoint of of just saying it from the standpoint of of just saying it from the standpoint of of just mental toughness. I mean, I don't mean mental toughness. I mean, I don't mean mental toughness. I mean, I don't mean the kind of guy who's going to walk into the kind of guy who's going to walk into the kind of guy who's going to walk into a biker bar and break a pool queue and a biker bar and break a pool queue and a biker bar and break a pool queue and go, "Okay, who who wants to fight?" You go, "Okay, who who wants to fight?" You go, "Okay, who who wants to fight?" You know, I'm not talking about that. I'm know, I'm not talking about that. I'm know, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a hard ass that just talking about a hard ass that just talking about a hard ass that just there's a job to be done. Get it done.

there's a job to be done. Get it done. there's a job to be done. Get it done. Do not feel sorry for yourself. Do not feel sorry for yourself. Do not feel sorry for yourself. And that whether people like to hear And that whether people like to hear And that whether people like to hear that or not, I'm sorry. But that's the that or not, I'm sorry. But that's the that or not, I'm sorry. But that's the kind of man he was. Well, that's a kind of man he was. Well, that's a kind of man he was. Well, that's a generational thing though, too. I mean, generational thing though, too. I mean, generational thing though, too. I mean, we all knew those guys. And the funny we all knew those guys. And the funny we all knew those guys. And the funny thing is I always say that that's a thing is I always say that that's a thing is I always say that that's a trope, right? That every generation trope, right? That every generation trope, right? That every generation thinks the next generations are weaker. thinks the next generations are weaker. thinks the next generations are weaker. And I always say that the the First And I always say that the the First And I always say that the the First World War generation thinks that the World War generation thinks that the World War generation thinks that the Second World War generation, the Second World War generation, the Second World War generation, the greatest generation, were a bunch of greatest generation, were a bunch of greatest generation, were a bunch of slackers. So, that's just how it always slackers. So, that's just how it always slackers. So, that's just how it always is. But those guys, and we all knew them is. But those guys, and we all knew them is. But those guys, and we all knew them growing up, they to us anyway, they growing up, they to us anyway, they growing up, they to us anyway, they looked pretty rough and tough and and looked pretty rough and tough and and looked pretty rough and tough and and for better or for worse, right? I mean, for better or for worse, right? I mean, for better or for worse, right? I mean, did your dad feel the same way about did your dad feel the same way about did your dad feel the same way about veterans from his conflict, too? I mean, veterans from his conflict, too? I mean, veterans from his conflict, too? I mean, if they came home to the States after if they came home to the States after if they came home to the States after the Second World War and couldn't cut it the Second World War and couldn't cut it the Second World War and couldn't cut it anymore because of the the damage done anymore because of the the damage done anymore because of the the damage done to them. Remember, we know shell damage to them. Remember, we know shell damage to them. Remember, we know shell damage now actually does real physical things now actually does real physical things now actually does real physical things to your head. Um, any any more sympathy, to your head. Um, any any more sympathy, to your head. Um, any any more sympathy, any less sympathy, same amount of any less sympathy, same amount of any less sympathy, same amount of sympathy for those guys? You mean from sympathy for those guys? You mean from sympathy for those guys? You mean from World War II back when he was younger?

World War II back when he was younger? World War II back when he was younger? Yeah. Or his buddies even who served Yeah. Or his buddies even who served Yeah. Or his buddies even who served with him? Um, yeah. I mean, there there with him? Um, yeah. I mean, there there with him? Um, yeah. I mean, there there Yeah, there would have been more Yeah, there would have been more Yeah, there would have been more sympathy. I mean, sympathy. I mean, sympathy. I mean, you know, I think that you know, I think that you know, I think that I just remember him telling me, I just remember him telling me, I just remember him telling me, well, he said it with the brie, but he well, he said it with the brie, but he well, he said it with the brie, but he told me too, you know, some of this just told me too, you know, some of this just told me too, you know, some of this just goes back to the strong feeling towards goes back to the strong feeling towards goes back to the strong feeling towards his enemy. Um, I just remember him his enemy. Um, I just remember him his enemy. Um, I just remember him saying, you know, I knew, and I'm going saying, you know, I knew, and I'm going saying, you know, I knew, and I'm going to use the word [ __ ] here because that's to use the word [ __ ] here because that's to use the word [ __ ] here because that's why he said it to me, and I'm I'm not why he said it to me, and I'm I'm not why he said it to me, and I'm I'm not gonna sanitize what he said to me in the gonna sanitize what he said to me in the gonna sanitize what he said to me in the name of political correctitude because I name of political correctitude because I name of political correctitude because I don't think that's what people want to don't think that's what people want to don't think that's what people want to hear. They want honesty. He said, "I hear. They want honesty. He said, "I hear. They want honesty. He said, "I knew the Japs could kill me, wound me, knew the Japs could kill me, wound me, knew the Japs could kill me, wound me, maim me for life. They could do terrible maim me for life. They could do terrible maim me for life. They could do terrible things, but I was not going to let them things, but I was not going to let them things, but I was not going to let them take my sanity." take my sanity." take my sanity." Well, let me talk about that for a Well, let me talk about that for a Well, let me talk about that for a minute because that's one of the things. minute because that's one of the things. minute because that's one of the things. So I've always been fascinated with the So I've always been fascinated with the So I've always been fascinated with the different challenges that different different challenges that different different challenges that different soldiers on different fronts faced, soldiers on different fronts faced, soldiers on different fronts faced, right? So the difference between being a right? So the difference between being a right? So the difference between being a GI, for example, uh in Europe fighting GI, for example, uh in Europe fighting GI, for example, uh in Europe fighting the Germans versus being a Marine in the the Germans versus being a Marine in the the Germans versus being a Marine in the Pacific fighting the Japanese. And in Pacific fighting the Japanese. And in Pacific fighting the Japanese. And in your in your book, not with the OBR, but your in your book, not with the OBR, but your in your book, not with the OBR, but in your book, you specifically pointed in your book, you specifically pointed in your book, you specifically pointed out that your dad had said uh talked a out that your dad had said uh talked a out that your dad had said uh talked a little bit about the difference in little bit about the difference in little bit about the difference in fighting the two. And for those who fighting the two. And for those who fighting the two. And for those who don't know, the Germans had some of the don't know, the Germans had some of the don't know, the Germans had some of the best equipment in the war and that would best equipment in the war and that would best equipment in the war and that would have made them scary in their own right.

have made them scary in their own right. have made them scary in their own right. There the Germans long before the Nazi There the Germans long before the Nazi There the Germans long before the Nazi period were fantastic soldiers. There period were fantastic soldiers. There period were fantastic soldiers. There were a lot of reasons you wouldn't want were a lot of reasons you wouldn't want were a lot of reasons you wouldn't want to fight the Germans. But the Japanese to fight the Germans. But the Japanese to fight the Germans. But the Japanese didn't let you sleep, your dad said. And didn't let you sleep, your dad said. And didn't let you sleep, your dad said. And when I think about the damage, you know, when I think about the damage, you know, when I think about the damage, you know, the PTSD, the waking up with the dreams the PTSD, the waking up with the dreams the PTSD, the waking up with the dreams and all that sort of stuff. an enemy and all that sort of stuff. an enemy and all that sort of stuff. an enemy that's going to sneak up on you at night that's going to sneak up on you at night that's going to sneak up on you at night is something I would think would stick is something I would think would stick is something I would think would stick in your, you know, fight or flight in your, you know, fight or flight in your, you know, fight or flight memory for the rest of your life. You memory for the rest of your life. You memory for the rest of your life. You know, I think you said in your book, he know, I think you said in your book, he know, I think you said in your book, he said that the Germans eventually, you said that the Germans eventually, you said that the Germans eventually, you know, called it a day and would go to know, called it a day and would go to know, called it a day and would go to bed at night and that's when some of the bed at night and that's when some of the bed at night and that's when some of the Japanese were just getting up ready to Japanese were just getting up ready to Japanese were just getting up ready to harass you. Can you talk a little bit harass you. Can you talk a little bit harass you. Can you talk a little bit about that aspect because your father about that aspect because your father about that aspect because your father has some of the most horrifyingly has some of the most horrifyingly has some of the most horrifyingly heartbreaking stories about um guys in heartbreaking stories about um guys in heartbreaking stories about um guys in the middle of the night who jump out of the middle of the night who jump out of the middle of the night who jump out of their foxhole and get killed their foxhole and get killed their foxhole and get killed accidentally by their own guys. I mean, accidentally by their own guys. I mean, accidentally by their own guys. I mean, my god, it's Bill still sticks with me. my god, it's Bill still sticks with me. my god, it's Bill still sticks with me. Can you talk about that a little bit? Can you talk about that a little bit? Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. I mean, so let's I mean, let's Sure. I mean, so let's I mean, let's Sure. I mean, so let's I mean, let's just go back to it from a less emotional just go back to it from a less emotional just go back to it from a less emotional and more physical uh perspective. I and more physical uh perspective. I and more physical uh perspective. I mean, my dad was obsessed with making mean, my dad was obsessed with making mean, my dad was obsessed with making sure I went to bed early enough and got sure I went to bed early enough and got sure I went to bed early enough and got enough sleep. And I, you know, at first enough sleep. And I, you know, at first enough sleep. And I, you know, at first I go, why is he constantly telling me to I go, why is he constantly telling me to I go, why is he constantly telling me to go to bed, get enough, you know, I came go to bed, get enough, you know, I came go to bed, get enough, you know, I came to understand that it a lot of that tied to understand that it a lot of that tied to understand that it a lot of that tied back to what you just said on Peloo and back to what you just said on Peloo and back to what you just said on Peloo and everywhere in the Pacific, not just everywhere in the Pacific, not just everywhere in the Pacific, not just Peloo, not just Okinawa.

Peloo, not just Okinawa. Peloo, not just Okinawa. And I remembered him saying this so many And I remembered him saying this so many And I remembered him saying this so many times when I was a kid. You know how, times when I was a kid. You know how, times when I was a kid. You know how, you know, the Japanese were moving you know, the Japanese were moving you know, the Japanese were moving around at night. They moved around all around at night. They moved around all around at night. They moved around all night. They you had to worry about night. They you had to worry about night. They you had to worry about infiltrator. You you know he told me I I infiltrator. You you know he told me I I infiltrator. You you know he told me I I spent many a night in my foxhole and a K spent many a night in my foxhole and a K spent many a night in my foxhole and a K bar in one hand, a 45 in the other. You bar in one hand, a 45 in the other. You bar in one hand, a 45 in the other. You know, one guy had to be awake on watch, know, one guy had to be awake on watch, know, one guy had to be awake on watch, the other guy slept. Um their constant, the other guy slept. Um their constant, the other guy slept. Um their constant, you know, the way they exp I mean that you know, the way they exp I mean that you know, the way they exp I mean that we know on Peloo they had troops who we know on Peloo they had troops who we know on Peloo they had troops who fought during the day while there were fought during the day while there were fought during the day while there were other troops who stayed back in the other troops who stayed back in the other troops who stayed back in the caves resting. And then the troops who caves resting. And then the troops who caves resting. And then the troops who fought during the day, they would rest. fought during the day, they would rest. fought during the day, they would rest. the troops who rested during the day, the troops who rested during the day, the troops who rested during the day, they'd go out and infiltrate at night. they'd go out and infiltrate at night. they'd go out and infiltrate at night. Um, and they were masters at it. And, Um, and they were masters at it. And, Um, and they were masters at it. And, you know, you had, he said, we had to you know, you had, he said, we had to you know, you had, he said, we had to attack them all day and fight them all attack them all day and fight them all attack them all day and fight them all night. And it was, it was exhausting. night. And it was, it was exhausting. night. And it was, it was exhausting. And I mean, that that um, just that the And I mean, that that um, just that the And I mean, that that um, just that the combat in and of itself combat in and of itself combat in and of itself is is just one is this accumulation of is is just one is this accumulation of is is just one is this accumulation of deprivation. You know, it's such a deprivation. You know, it's such a deprivation. You know, it's such a degrading experience on so many levels.

degrading experience on so many levels. degrading experience on so many levels. It all just becomes even worse and It all just becomes even worse and It all just becomes even worse and compressed and magnetized to the to compressed and magnetized to the to compressed and magnetized to the to exponential degrees when you have to exponential degrees when you have to exponential degrees when you have to deal with it not having had any sleep deal with it not having had any sleep deal with it not having had any sleep and you're just physically and mentally and you're just physically and mentally and you're just physically and mentally exhausted. And you know he was in combat exhausted. And you know he was in combat exhausted. And you know he was in combat on pillow for what 30 32 days and 81 82 on pillow for what 30 32 days and 81 82 on pillow for what 30 32 days and 81 82 days on Okinawa. And I actually thought days on Okinawa. And I actually thought days on Okinawa. And I actually thought the material that got that I was able to the material that got that I was able to the material that got that I was able to use that got edited out of with the old use that got edited out of with the old use that got edited out of with the old breed for Okinawa was even because there breed for Okinawa was even because there breed for Okinawa was even because there was just more of it. But he he like I was just more of it. But he he like I was just more of it. But he he like I mean Dan as I'm sitting there reading mean Dan as I'm sitting there reading mean Dan as I'm sitting there reading and researching his unpublished words and researching his unpublished words and researching his unpublished words I almost felt like God he's just I almost felt like God he's just I almost felt like God he's just belaboring this point of how exhausted belaboring this point of how exhausted belaboring this point of how exhausted he was how tired they were and how you he was how tired they were and how you he was how tired they were and how you know just you just reached this point of know just you just reached this point of know just you just reached this point of utter exhaustion that you just cannot go utter exhaustion that you just cannot go utter exhaustion that you just cannot go on anymore and yet you have to on anymore and yet you have to on anymore and yet you have to you know but yeah many times I mean he you know but yeah many times I mean he you know but yeah many times I mean he would say man the Germans were fine would say man the Germans were fine would say man the Germans were fine soldiers you know I would not have soldiers you know I would not have soldiers you know I would not have wanted to fight wanted to fight wanted to fight But at least you could get some sleep at But at least you could get some sleep at But at least you could get some sleep at night with them.

It's interesting. I'm thinking about, It's interesting. I'm thinking about, like I said, some of the And folks, if like I said, some of the And folks, if like I said, some of the And folks, if you haven't read with the Old Breed, and you haven't read with the Old Breed, and you haven't read with the Old Breed, and then Henry's book is the perfect then Henry's book is the perfect then Henry's book is the perfect compliment to it. Uh this is one of the compliment to it. Uh this is one of the compliment to it. Uh this is one of the best books ever written by a Second best books ever written by a Second best books ever written by a Second World War American combat veteran. Uh World War American combat veteran. Uh World War American combat veteran. Uh and and and part of what he does is I and and and part of what he does is I and and and part of what he does is I mean there are images the one of him mean there are images the one of him mean there are images the one of him sliding seeing the guy slide down the sliding seeing the guy slide down the sliding seeing the guy slide down the hill or himself slide down the hill and hill or himself slide down the hill and hill or himself slide down the hill and then end up at the bottom covered in then end up at the bottom covered in then end up at the bottom covered in maggots and vomiting. These are the maggots and vomiting. These are the maggots and vomiting. These are the sorts of things that don't make it into sorts of things that don't make it into sorts of things that don't make it into your John Wayne movie, but turn it 360° your John Wayne movie, but turn it 360° your John Wayne movie, but turn it 360° giving you a much better sense of what giving you a much better sense of what giving you a much better sense of what we're really talking about here. Right? we're really talking about here. Right? we're really talking about here. Right? It's a little like reading um Paul It's a little like reading um Paul It's a little like reading um Paul Fusell's book wartime where he talks Fusell's book wartime where he talks Fusell's book wartime where he talks about all the different ways you die in about all the different ways you die in about all the different ways you die in this war that nobody ever even talks this war that nobody ever even talks this war that nobody ever even talks about. And I remember the one he said about. And I remember the one he said about. And I remember the one he said was getting hit with a body part of your was getting hit with a body part of your was getting hit with a body part of your buddy. And and once you start to realize buddy. And and once you start to realize buddy. And and once you start to realize that when we talk about like that army that when we talk about like that army that when we talk about like that army psychologist who wrote on the 50th psychologist who wrote on the 50th psychologist who wrote on the 50th anniversary, wars cost is to the soul or anniversary, wars cost is to the soul or anniversary, wars cost is to the soul or whatever he called it, what these people whatever he called it, what these people whatever he called it, what these people had to go through and then walk around had to go through and then walk around had to go through and then walk around and live their lives which many of us and live their lives which many of us and live their lives which many of us find challenging enough without any find challenging enough without any find challenging enough without any combat experience in our backgrounds.

combat experience in our backgrounds. combat experience in our backgrounds. That to me is as impressive as whatever That to me is as impressive as whatever That to me is as impressive as whatever they had to do actually in the combat. they had to do actually in the combat. they had to do actually in the combat. You know what I mean? to stick it out on You know what I mean? to stick it out on You know what I mean? to stick it out on the long hall decade after decade. the long hall decade after decade. the long hall decade after decade. Yeah. Well, and that that's, you know, Yeah. Well, and that that's, you know, Yeah. Well, and that that's, you know, when I again as I got older and began to when I again as I got older and began to when I again as I got older and began to really understand that, okay, I mean, really understand that, okay, I mean, really understand that, okay, I mean, here's a guy who survived what he here's a guy who survived what he here's a guy who survived what he survived and then, you know, comes home survived and then, you know, comes home survived and then, you know, comes home and and tries to piece it all back and and tries to piece it all back and and tries to piece it all back together and figure out what he wants to together and figure out what he wants to together and figure out what he wants to do. And first, he got a business degree, do. And first, he got a business degree, do. And first, he got a business degree, which was not what he wanted. That was which was not what he wanted. That was which was not what he wanted. That was not his passion. And you know my not his passion. And you know my not his passion. And you know my grandfather was very wise perspicacious grandfather was very wise perspicacious grandfather was very wise perspicacious man and and told him look science is man and and told him look science is man and and told him look science is what you love you know go to Auburn and what you love you know go to Auburn and what you love you know go to Auburn and get involved in one of their bi their get involved in one of their bi their get involved in one of their bi their graduate biology programs and and you graduate biology programs and and you graduate biology programs and and you know that's what he ended up doing and know that's what he ended up doing and know that's what he ended up doing and and that was his passion and you know and that was his passion and you know and that was his passion and you know the the how academically rigorous that the the how academically rigorous that the the how academically rigorous that was and the fact that he could do that I was and the fact that he could do that I was and the fact that he could do that I mean I had such um tremendous respect mean I had such um tremendous respect mean I had such um tremendous respect for that. Well, and again, that's I for that. Well, and again, that's I for that. Well, and again, that's I think that's part that plays into that think that's part that plays into that think that's part that plays into that humanity aspect. I mean, he's a guy who humanity aspect. I mean, he's a guy who humanity aspect. I mean, he's a guy who can't hunt anymore after the war, right?

can't hunt anymore after the war, right? can't hunt anymore after the war, right? Because he doesn't want to inflict any Because he doesn't want to inflict any Because he doesn't want to inflict any suffering. He comes off like a professor suffering. He comes off like a professor suffering. He comes off like a professor who who maybe is like a bird watcher who who maybe is like a bird watcher who who maybe is like a bird watcher almost. Let me let me ask a different almost. Let me let me ask a different almost. Let me let me ask a different question because I always found it question because I always found it question because I always found it interesting when somebody who was in a interesting when somebody who was in a interesting when somebody who was in a conflict right on on a ground level for conflict right on on a ground level for conflict right on on a ground level for example went back later and started example went back later and started example went back later and started looking at the big picture zoom out looking at the big picture zoom out looking at the big picture zoom out decisions that the you know the decisions that the you know the decisions that the you know the MacArthur's and the Eisenhowers and the MacArthur's and the Eisenhowers and the MacArthur's and the Eisenhowers and the people at the top jobs were making did people at the top jobs were making did people at the top jobs were making did your did your father have specific views your did your father have specific views your did your father have specific views on the way the war were fought on the way the war were fought on the way the war were fought commanders that he and I don't mean like commanders that he and I don't mean like commanders that he and I don't mean like commanders of his unit but I mean you commanders of his unit but I mean you commanders of his unit but I mean you know the nimmites and the guys at the know the nimmites and the guys at the know the nimmites and the guys at the big level what were his views on on the big level what were his views on on the big level what were his views on on the or from the sort of zoom out macro level or from the sort of zoom out macro level or from the sort of zoom out macro level that he was on the ground in. that he was on the ground in. that he was on the ground in. I that's a great question. I wish as I I that's a great question. I wish as I I that's a great question. I wish as I have, you know, become so passionate have, you know, become so passionate have, you know, become so passionate about World War II history through my about World War II history through my about World War II history through my life and read and researched it more and life and read and researched it more and life and read and researched it more and more. I I I look back on that I wish I'd more. I I I look back on that I wish I'd more. I I I look back on that I wish I'd had more conversations with him o along had more conversations with him o along had more conversations with him o along that subject along those lines. However, that subject along those lines. However, that subject along those lines. However, I can't answer your question because I can't answer your question because I can't answer your question because what I I can answer your question and what I I can answer your question and what I I can answer your question and what I will say is um when you look at what I will say is um when you look at what I will say is um when you look at Chester Nimttz and and look, I mean I I Chester Nimttz and and look, I mean I I Chester Nimttz and and look, I mean I I I think I'm I'm a Nitz fan. I think he I think I'm I'm a Nitz fan. I think he I think I'm I'm a Nitz fan. I think he did a fantastic job um doing what he did did a fantastic job um doing what he did did a fantastic job um doing what he did in the Pacific War. I think that on the in the Pacific War. I think that on the in the Pacific War. I think that on the subject of Nemits, my father was subject of Nemits, my father was subject of Nemits, my father was negative. I think he had a hostile view negative. I think he had a hostile view negative. I think he had a hostile view of NTZ. The reason for that is because of NTZ. The reason for that is because of NTZ. The reason for that is because Nemitz could have called off Peloo, but Nemitz could have called off Peloo, but Nemitz could have called off Peloo, but he chose not to. Now, a lot of people

he chose not to. Now, a lot of people he chose not to. Now, a lot of people blame that on MacArthur. And I mean, blame that on MacArthur. And I mean, blame that on MacArthur. And I mean, after all, we attacked Peloo to protect after all, we attacked Peloo to protect after all, we attacked Peloo to protect MacArthur's flank as he was advancing MacArthur's flank as he was advancing MacArthur's flank as he was advancing along that southwestern axis back to the along that southwestern axis back to the along that southwestern axis back to the Philippines. And then he didn't even Philippines. And then he didn't even Philippines. And then he didn't even need it. didn't even need it, you know, need it. didn't even need it, you know, need it. didn't even need it, you know, because they they I heard my dad say in because they they I heard my dad say in because they they I heard my dad say in an interview, not without bitterness, an interview, not without bitterness, an interview, not without bitterness, that, you know, we were still grinding that, you know, we were still grinding that, you know, we were still grinding it out or trying to finish up on Peloo it out or trying to finish up on Peloo it out or trying to finish up on Peloo when MacArthur walked ashore with with when MacArthur walked ashore with with when MacArthur walked ashore with with cameras grinding, you know. Um I think cameras grinding, you know. Um I think cameras grinding, you know. Um I think and he was no fan of MacArthur. Uh part and he was no fan of MacArthur. Uh part and he was no fan of MacArthur. Uh part of the reason for that was MacArthur was of the reason for that was MacArthur was of the reason for that was MacArthur was such an so egocentric, such an such an so egocentric, such an such an so egocentric, such an egoomaniac. I don't think anyone would egoomaniac. I don't think anyone would egoomaniac. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Um my father that disagree with that. Um my father that disagree with that. Um my father that was egoentrism was was a character trait was egoentrism was was a character trait was egoentrism was was a character trait that my dad just didn't have a lot of that my dad just didn't have a lot of that my dad just didn't have a lot of time for. Um so he he was he was not time for. Um so he he was he was not time for. Um so he he was he was not happy with Nemits for not calling off happy with Nemits for not calling off happy with Nemits for not calling off Peloo. Um he certainly felt some Peloo. Um he certainly felt some Peloo. Um he certainly felt some hostility towards MacArthur. Um, hostility towards MacArthur. Um, hostility towards MacArthur. Um, now to speak to Nemits, I mean to be to now to speak to Nemits, I mean to be to now to speak to Nemits, I mean to be to be fair, I mean if they'd have called be fair, I mean if they'd have called be fair, I mean if they'd have called off Peloo, the first Marine Division off Peloo, the first Marine Division off Peloo, the first Marine Division would have just gone somewhere else, you would have just gone somewhere else, you would have just gone somewhere else, you know, and and he certainly knew that, know, and and he certainly knew that, know, and and he certainly knew that, but the thing that made Pelu just a but the thing that made Pelu just a but the thing that made Pelu just a little bit of a well, the thing that little bit of a well, the thing that little bit of a well, the thing that made Peloo so much of a a tougher pill made Peloo so much of a a tougher pill made Peloo so much of a a tougher pill to swallow was the fact that it really to swallow was the fact that it really to swallow was the fact that it really wasn't needed and he saw so much wasn't needed and he saw so much wasn't needed and he saw so much suffering and dying there among his suffering and dying there among his suffering and dying there among his friends. Um, as far as, you know, like friends. Um, as far as, you know, like friends. Um, as far as, you know, like what he thought of Ernest J. King, I what he thought of Ernest J. King, I what he thought of Ernest J. King, I have no idea because we never talked

have no idea because we never talked have no idea because we never talked about that. Um I to get down to a about that. Um I to get down to a about that. Um I to get down to a slightly lower level I know that he was slightly lower level I know that he was slightly lower level I know that he was not an admirer of General Rapertis who not an admirer of General Rapertis who not an admirer of General Rapertis who was the first marine division commander was the first marine division commander was the first marine division commander you know and I don't think too many men you know and I don't think too many men you know and I don't think too many men in the first marine division were in the first marine division were in the first marine division were because they they reached a point where because they they reached a point where because they they reached a point where you know the 81st infantry division was you know the 81st infantry division was you know the 81st infantry division was ready and willing to come in and help ready and willing to come in and help ready and willing to come in and help after they had taken Angar just south of after they had taken Angar just south of after they had taken Angar just south of Peloo And General Repertis did not want Peloo And General Repertis did not want Peloo And General Repertis did not want army help. He was convinced the first army help. He was convinced the first army help. He was convinced the first marine division could do it alone. And marine division could do it alone. And marine division could do it alone. And the first marine regiment was decimated the first marine regiment was decimated the first marine regiment was decimated and had to be taken off the island after and had to be taken off the island after and had to be taken off the island after about a week of fighting or slightly about a week of fighting or slightly about a week of fighting or slightly more than a week along with first marine more than a week along with first marine more than a week along with first marine tank battalion. And then that left the tank battalion. And then that left the tank battalion. And then that left the seventh marine regiment and the fifth seventh marine regiment and the fifth seventh marine regiment and the fifth marine regiment which my dad was in the marine regiment which my dad was in the marine regiment which my dad was in the fifth marines and and each of them fifth marines and and each of them fifth marines and and each of them became chewed up by the meat grinder of became chewed up by the meat grinder of became chewed up by the meat grinder of bloody nose ridge you know which was the bloody nose ridge you know which was the bloody nose ridge you know which was the high ground on Peloo. Um, you know, and high ground on Peloo. Um, you know, and high ground on Peloo. Um, you know, and of course it it finally took General of course it it finally took General of course it it finally took General Guyger, who's uh the core commander, to Guyger, who's uh the core commander, to Guyger, who's uh the core commander, to come in and and who was Repertus' boss, come in and and who was Repertus' boss, come in and and who was Repertus' boss, to come in and say, "Look, you obviously to come in and say, "Look, you obviously to come in and say, "Look, you obviously need help here. Bring in the army." Um, need help here. Bring in the army." Um, need help here. Bring in the army." Um, but but but and so I I I think he actually thought and so I I I think he actually thought and so I I I think he actually thought pretty highly of General Guyer, but uh pretty highly of General Guyer, but uh pretty highly of General Guyer, but uh but like General Pedro Delval took over but like General Pedro Delval took over but like General Pedro Delval took over the first Marine Division after the first Marine Division after the first Marine Division after repertis.

repertis. repertis. Uh and I have no idea what he thought of Uh and I have no idea what he thought of Uh and I have no idea what he thought of General Delval. I think I think I may General Delval. I think I think I may General Delval. I think I think I may have read something that got edited out have read something that got edited out have read something that got edited out when I did my research that he he had when I did my research that he he had when I did my research that he he had some positive things to say about some positive things to say about some positive things to say about General Delval, but um I I ended up General Delval, but um I I ended up General Delval, but um I I ended up having to edit that part out of my having to edit that part out of my having to edit that part out of my manuscript just because it was just manuscript just because it was just manuscript just because it was just getting too long. getting too long. getting too long. Um did your father did your father read Um did your father did your father read Um did your father did your father read about these campaigns after the war? I about these campaigns after the war? I about these campaigns after the war? I mean like did he read books on Peloo? mean like did he read books on Peloo? mean like did he read books on Peloo? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He he did. Um, and you Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He he did. Um, and you Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He he did. Um, and you know, of course he was interviewed for know, of course he was interviewed for know, of course he was interviewed for some of them, but but he did re look, some of them, but but he did re look, some of them, but but he did re look, you know, Dan, one of the first books I you know, Dan, one of the first books I you know, Dan, one of the first books I I remember this because I talk about it. I remember this because I talk about it. I remember this because I talk about it. I remember, you know, in my dad's study, I remember, you know, in my dad's study, I remember, you know, in my dad's study, you know, his bookcase. I remember his you know, his bookcase. I remember his you know, his bookcase. I remember his KBAR sitting there with it scabbard on KBAR sitting there with it scabbard on KBAR sitting there with it scabbard on on his bookcase. I remember a Japanese on his bookcase. I remember a Japanese on his bookcase. I remember a Japanese samurai saber over in the corner. And I samurai saber over in the corner. And I samurai saber over in the corner. And I remember some of the books on his shelf remember some of the books on his shelf remember some of the books on his shelf and I remember one was The Rise and Fall and I remember one was The Rise and Fall and I remember one was The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shy. Um he of the Third Reich by William Shy. Um he of the Third Reich by William Shy. Um he he had a copy of that. I remember Strong he had a copy of that. I remember Strong he had a copy of that. I remember Strong Men Armed by Robert Leki, a book that Men Armed by Robert Leki, a book that Men Armed by Robert Leki, a book that I've read many times. Um I remember his I've read many times. Um I remember his I've read many times. Um I remember his copy of Helmet for My Pillow where he, copy of Helmet for My Pillow where he, copy of Helmet for My Pillow where he, you know, that came out in 1957, you you know, that came out in 1957, you you know, that came out in 1957, you know, the classic book by Robert Le.

know, the classic book by Robert Le. know, the classic book by Robert Le. Yeah. Same campaign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same campaign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same campaign. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh he was in H21. My dad was Absolutely. Uh he was in H21. My dad was Absolutely. Uh he was in H21. My dad was in K35. You know, I remember one of the in K35. You know, I remember one of the in K35. You know, I remember one of the first World War II books I ever read was first World War II books I ever read was first World War II books I ever read was Helmet for My Pillow. And I remember and Helmet for My Pillow. And I remember and Helmet for My Pillow. And I remember and I God I don't know what happened to I God I don't know what happened to I God I don't know what happened to this. I wish I did. My dad's copy of it. this. I wish I did. My dad's copy of it. this. I wish I did. My dad's copy of it. We lost it. But I remember his reading We lost it. But I remember his reading We lost it. But I remember his reading his copy you know and seeing where you his copy you know and seeing where you his copy you know and seeing where you know my dad had made notes in it. know my dad had made notes in it. know my dad had made notes in it. Um because when he read that book he I Um because when he read that book he I Um because when he read that book he I mean who who knows it literally in his mean who who knows it literally in his mean who who knows it literally in his mind he's thinking he was literally mind he's thinking he was literally mind he's thinking he was literally preparing himself preparing himself preparing himself to write with the old breed. And of to write with the old breed. And of to write with the old breed. And of course the process had already begun. course the process had already begun. course the process had already begun. You know he had already taken the notes You know he had already taken the notes You know he had already taken the notes out of his Bible and started writing an out of his Bible and started writing an out of his Bible and started writing an outline and then and then fleshing that outline and then and then fleshing that outline and then and then fleshing that out into you know that process began out into you know that process began out into you know that process began early on. Uh but there were other books early on. Uh but there were other books early on. Uh but there were other books he read too you know. Yeah he did he was he read too you know. Yeah he did he was he read too you know. Yeah he did he was very well read about all things but he very well read about all things but he very well read about all things but he read books about the the European read books about the the European read books about the the European theater. um you know and so and I'm sure theater. um you know and so and I'm sure theater. um you know and so and I'm sure reading all of these things and and I reading all of these things and and I reading all of these things and and I got to say this um I think one thing got to say this um I think one thing got to say this um I think one thing that bothered my dad because he he and I that bothered my dad because he he and I that bothered my dad because he he and I spoke about it um he always felt like spoke about it um he always felt like spoke about it um he always felt like you know that that you know that that you know that that our collective conscience of World War our collective conscience of World War our collective conscience of World War II was European centric you know it's II was European centric you know it's II was European centric you know it's it's like Normandy Normandy Normandy it's like Normandy Normandy Normandy it's like Normandy Normandy Normandy that's all we hear about and deservedly that's all we hear about and deservedly that's all we hear about and deservedly so not saying we shouldn't but he looks so not saying we shouldn't but he looks so not saying we shouldn't but he looks at it he he looked at it like

at it he he looked at it like at it he he looked at it like what about what we went through on Peloo what about what we went through on Peloo what about what we went through on Peloo or Okinawa or what about what my buddies or Okinawa or what about what my buddies or Okinawa or what about what my buddies went through on Cape Glouster or Guadal went through on Cape Glouster or Guadal went through on Cape Glouster or Guadal Canal or or you know Ewaima which Canal or or you know Ewaima which Canal or or you know Ewaima which obviously Euima is incredibly wellknown obviously Euima is incredibly wellknown obviously Euima is incredibly wellknown deservedly so too but um I think he just deservedly so too but um I think he just deservedly so too but um I think he just kind of felt like you know back in the kind of felt like you know back in the kind of felt like you know back in the 70s and 80s when when I was growing up 70s and 80s when when I was growing up 70s and 80s when when I was growing up that the war in the Pacific just wasn't that the war in the Pacific just wasn't that the war in the Pacific just wasn't as well known. It wasn't as well as well known. It wasn't as well as well known. It wasn't as well understood. It's harder to understand it understood. It's harder to understand it understood. It's harder to understand it for so many reasons. I mean, not not we, for so many reasons. I mean, not not we, for so many reasons. I mean, not not we, you know, to talk about the the added you know, to talk about the the added you know, to talk about the the added human element of fighting the Japanese human element of fighting the Japanese human element of fighting the Japanese compared to fighting the Germans, you compared to fighting the Germans, you compared to fighting the Germans, you know, that that was there were layers of know, that that was there were layers of know, that that was there were layers of complications to that, right? That that complications to that, right? That that complications to that, right? That that you it was just a war of visceral hatred you it was just a war of visceral hatred you it was just a war of visceral hatred that maybe some of that wasn't there that maybe some of that wasn't there that maybe some of that wasn't there against the Germans, you know, but not against the Germans, you know, but not against the Germans, you know, but not only that, but you the the enormous only that, but you the the enormous only that, but you the the enormous logistical complications of fighting in logistical complications of fighting in logistical complications of fighting in the Pacific. I mean it it's I mean I've the Pacific. I mean it it's I mean I've the Pacific. I mean it it's I mean I've studied it for years and it still studied it for years and it still studied it for years and it still boggles my mind. You know we should talk boggles my mind. You know we should talk boggles my mind. You know we should talk about that. I had a few questions uh uh about that. I had a few questions uh uh about that. I had a few questions uh uh in my mind about that and it's related in my mind about that and it's related in my mind about that and it's related to the difference between fighting the to the difference between fighting the to the difference between fighting the Japanese and the Germans but not in Japanese and the Germans but not in Japanese and the Germans but not in terms of tactics or equipment or terms of tactics or equipment or terms of tactics or equipment or strategy more in terms of the kind of strategy more in terms of the kind of strategy more in terms of the kind of fight it was. Um to call the war in fight it was. Um to call the war in fight it was. Um to call the war in Europe a gentleman's war is a complete Europe a gentleman's war is a complete Europe a gentleman's war is a complete misnomer because we all know it wasn't.

misnomer because we all know it wasn't. misnomer because we all know it wasn't. But you had things like the Malmi But you had things like the Malmi But you had things like the Malmi massacre during uh um uh during the massacre during uh um uh during the massacre during uh um uh during the Battle of the Bulge offensive, the Battle of the Bulge offensive, the Battle of the Bulge offensive, the second Ardan. Um and these sorts of second Ardan. Um and these sorts of second Ardan. Um and these sorts of things when we grew up were still things when we grew up were still things when we grew up were still trumpeted as these terrible outlier trumpeted as these terrible outlier trumpeted as these terrible outlier incidents that showed you just how incidents that showed you just how incidents that showed you just how terrible the Nazis were, right? And all terrible the Nazis were, right? And all terrible the Nazis were, right? And all and you start reading about the Pacific and you start reading about the Pacific and you start reading about the Pacific campaign and you realize that stuff's campaign and you realize that stuff's campaign and you realize that stuff's happening all the time, right? All like happening all the time, right? All like happening all the time, right? All like uh your father said something once. So, uh your father said something once. So, uh your father said something once. So, so we talked earlier about the Carlton so we talked earlier about the Carlton so we talked earlier about the Carlton film that had some footage, the UK film film that had some footage, the UK film film that had some footage, the UK film that had some footage that I'd never that had some footage that I'd never that had some footage that I'd never seen before. It was stuff that we all seen before. It was stuff that we all seen before. It was stuff that we all knew. If you had done your research, you knew. If you had done your research, you knew. If you had done your research, you knew if you talked to a bunch of knew if you talked to a bunch of knew if you talked to a bunch of veterans, you knew that the war in the veterans, you knew that the war in the veterans, you knew that the war in the Pacific was not a big prisoner war. Uh Pacific was not a big prisoner war. Uh Pacific was not a big prisoner war. Uh especially if people were wounded. And especially if people were wounded. And especially if people were wounded. And your father talked about the possum your father talked about the possum your father talked about the possum squads and I had to bring that up by by squads and I had to bring that up by by squads and I had to bring that up by by name to some other people. And when you name to some other people. And when you name to some other people. And when you brought it up, they were okay talking brought it up, they were okay talking brought it up, they were okay talking about it. But they didn't volunteer about it. But they didn't volunteer about it. But they didn't volunteer that. and the Carlton film and I hope it that. and the Carlton film and I hope it that. and the Carlton film and I hope it is a Carlton film. I should have written is a Carlton film. I should have written is a Carlton film. I should have written that down. Um there they show you that down. Um there they show you that down. Um there they show you footage of that and and first of all I footage of that and and first of all I footage of that and and first of all I was amazed that the photographers took was amazed that the photographers took was amazed that the photographers took the footage. Uh these and it was it was the footage. Uh these and it was it was the footage. Uh these and it was it was film. It wasn't uh uh still photos. I film. It wasn't uh uh still photos. I film. It wasn't uh uh still photos. I was amazed that they took it and when was amazed that they took it and when was amazed that they took it and when your father explained it, you turned your father explained it, you turned your father explained it, you turned around and you realized what a different around and you realized what a different around and you realized what a different war this was because the Japanese were war this was because the Japanese were war this was because the Japanese were doing it on their side too. It just was doing it on their side too. It just was doing it on their side too. It just was a very very viscerally, you know, we a very very viscerally, you know, we a very very viscerally, you know, we talked about how they moved around at talked about how they moved around at talked about how they moved around at night and how that changed the dynamic.

night and how that changed the dynamic. night and how that changed the dynamic. Well, the we're going to chop up any of Well, the we're going to chop up any of Well, the we're going to chop up any of your people we we capture changes the your people we we capture changes the your people we we capture changes the dynamic. No one's taken prisoners. That dynamic. No one's taken prisoners. That dynamic. No one's taken prisoners. That changes the dynamic. That and and again, changes the dynamic. That and and again, changes the dynamic. That and and again, when we talk about PTSD, recovering when we talk about PTSD, recovering when we talk about PTSD, recovering after the war, having a Japanese after the war, having a Japanese after the war, having a Japanese American nurse, and whether you can American nurse, and whether you can American nurse, and whether you can stand that or not, I think a lot of that stand that or not, I think a lot of that stand that or not, I think a lot of that plays into it in a way. And look, let's plays into it in a way. And look, let's plays into it in a way. And look, let's throw in the Rword because it's part of throw in the Rword because it's part of throw in the Rword because it's part of it. The racism, too, right? you felt it. The racism, too, right? you felt it. The racism, too, right? you felt differently about people that were differently about people that were differently about people that were looked at as animals than you did about looked at as animals than you did about looked at as animals than you did about a bunch of blondhaired, blue-eyed a bunch of blondhaired, blue-eyed a bunch of blondhaired, blue-eyed Germans, right? So, there was a lot Germans, right? So, there was a lot Germans, right? So, there was a lot going into this that increased the going into this that increased the going into this that increased the exponentially, I think, the the damage exponentially, I think, the the damage exponentially, I think, the the damage and and stuff done to people like your and and stuff done to people like your and and stuff done to people like your father. And then the memory of the war father. And then the memory of the war father. And then the memory of the war afterwards and how you tell it in real afterwards and how you tell it in real afterwards and how you tell it in real truthful fashion, but now we're in cold truthful fashion, but now we're in cold truthful fashion, but now we're in cold blood, right? We're not in hot blood blood, right? We're not in hot blood blood, right? We're not in hot blood anymore. It's the same thing we talked anymore. It's the same thing we talked anymore. It's the same thing we talked about about how the veterans can't talk about about how the veterans can't talk about about how the veterans can't talk about what they've been through because about what they've been through because about what they've been through because the civilians have no context. Same way the civilians have no context. Same way the civilians have no context. Same way in the Pacific here, right? Your in the Pacific here, right? Your in the Pacific here, right? Your father's trying to tell the truth in father's trying to tell the truth in father's trying to tell the truth in part to keep us out of future wars part to keep us out of future wars part to keep us out of future wars without thinking really strongly about without thinking really strongly about without thinking really strongly about what we're doing. And yet the truth is what we're doing. And yet the truth is what we're doing. And yet the truth is hard for people a generation or two hard for people a generation or two hard for people a generation or two later in cold blood to absorb. It's the later in cold blood to absorb. It's the later in cold blood to absorb. It's the same problem you have with the atomic same problem you have with the atomic same problem you have with the atomic bomb question, isn't it? Right.

bomb question, isn't it? Right. bomb question, isn't it? Right. Well, you know that when you when you Well, you know that when you when you Well, you know that when you when you speak of the atomic bomb, I mean, speak of the atomic bomb, I mean, speak of the atomic bomb, I mean, my father and I my father and I had some my father and I my father and I had some my father and I my father and I had some conversations conversations conversations about that, you know, and what what I about that, you know, and what what I about that, you know, and what what I would say in this modern age when when would say in this modern age when when would say in this modern age when when we're so fond of judging our actions in we're so fond of judging our actions in we're so fond of judging our actions in the past as a nation is, you know, if if the past as a nation is, you know, if if the past as a nation is, you know, if if you think that we shouldn't have dropped you think that we shouldn't have dropped you think that we shouldn't have dropped the atomic bombs and and I don't the atomic bombs and and I don't the atomic bombs and and I don't moralize about this one way or the other moralize about this one way or the other moralize about this one way or the other in my book. in my book. in my book. a stew anything like that. But I speak a stew anything like that. But I speak a stew anything like that. But I speak of this through the eyes of a guy like of this through the eyes of a guy like of this through the eyes of a guy like my dad. When you have fought the my dad. When you have fought the my dad. When you have fought the Japanese across the Pacific and you've Japanese across the Pacific and you've Japanese across the Pacific and you've seen how you couldn't take prisoners, seen how you couldn't take prisoners, seen how you couldn't take prisoners, you couldn't even try in many cases to you couldn't even try in many cases to you couldn't even try in many cases to help a wounded Japanese because he would help a wounded Japanese because he would help a wounded Japanese because he would try to detonate a grenade. That's right. try to detonate a grenade. That's right. try to detonate a grenade. That's right. And and kill your corman. You know, And and kill your corman. You know, And and kill your corman. You know, these are things that these guys had to these are things that these guys had to these are things that these guys had to live with on a daily basis and they're live with on a daily basis and they're live with on a daily basis and they're trying to survive. You know, all they trying to survive. You know, all they trying to survive. You know, all they care about is surviving this horrific care about is surviving this horrific care about is surviving this horrific experience and getting back home. And so experience and getting back home. And so experience and getting back home. And so when you when you deal with that and when you when you deal with that and when you when you deal with that and then you get to Okinawa and you have then you get to Okinawa and you have then you get to Okinawa and you have this added layer of complexity because this added layer of complexity because this added layer of complexity because of all the civilians Yeah. or Saipan and of all the civilians Yeah. or Saipan and of all the civilians Yeah. or Saipan and you see what happens there, right? You you see what happens there, right? You you see what happens there, right? You have, you know, Saipan have, you know, Saipan have, you know, Saipan and Saipan. Yes. Absolutely. and then and Saipan. Yes. Absolutely. and then and Saipan. Yes. Absolutely. and then even more so in Okinawa. And you see even more so in Okinawa. And you see even more so in Okinawa. And you see that and how the Japanese in some cases that and how the Japanese in some cases that and how the Japanese in some cases treated their own people and treated their own people and treated their own people and you you you read about Okinawa through my dad's read about Okinawa through my dad's read about Okinawa through my dad's eyes. Read about that. Read read with

eyes. Read about that. Read read with eyes. Read about that. Read read with the old breed and really absorb yourself the old breed and really absorb yourself the old breed and really absorb yourself in what was going on. And I go into it in what was going on. And I go into it in what was going on. And I go into it quite a bit in my book too with his quite a bit in my book too with his quite a bit in my book too with his unpublished material. unpublished material. unpublished material. And then imagine And then imagine And then imagine Okinawa times a 100,000 because that's Okinawa times a 100,000 because that's Okinawa times a 100,000 because that's what invading the Japanese home islands what invading the Japanese home islands what invading the Japanese home islands would have been. That's what my dad would have been. That's what my dad would have been. That's what my dad always told me. He said, "We were told, always told me. He said, "We were told, always told me. He said, "We were told, and it is horrific to contemplate this, and it is horrific to contemplate this, and it is horrific to contemplate this, but he said, we were told, get used to but he said, we were told, get used to but he said, we were told, get used to killing women and children because killing women and children because killing women and children because you're going to have to." you're going to have to." you're going to have to." Wow. And he said, "If we invaded the Wow. And he said, "If we invaded the Wow. And he said, "If we invaded the Japanese home islands, we were going to Japanese home islands, we were going to Japanese home islands, we were going to have to kill every last one of them have to kill every last one of them have to kill every last one of them because they would fight us to the because they would fight us to the because they would fight us to the death." And so death." And so death." And so when you put your head in that space and when you put your head in that space and when you put your head in that space and put yourself as a young man who survived put yourself as a young man who survived put yourself as a young man who survived more than he should have and now you're more than he should have and now you're more than he should have and now you're thinking that you know at the end of thinking that you know at the end of thinking that you know at the end of Kenishi Ridge Dan at the end of Okinawa Kenishi Ridge Dan at the end of Okinawa Kenishi Ridge Dan at the end of Okinawa they go up to the Mobu Peninsula to the they go up to the Mobu Peninsula to the they go up to the Mobu Peninsula to the tent camp.

tent camp. tent camp. They don't know that the war is about to They don't know that the war is about to They don't know that the war is about to be over. They think that, okay, I've be over. They think that, okay, I've be over. They think that, okay, I've just survived my second campaign and I'm just survived my second campaign and I'm just survived my second campaign and I'm damn lucky to have survived it. damn lucky to have survived it. damn lucky to have survived it. Now we got to start training for the Now we got to start training for the Now we got to start training for the home mountain invading Japan because we home mountain invading Japan because we home mountain invading Japan because we know that's next and we know they're not know that's next and we know they're not know that's next and we know they're not going to surrender. going to surrender. going to surrender. And so when you when you think about it And so when you when you think about it And so when you when you think about it in that context, in that context, in that context, seeing the atomic bombs dropped makes seeing the atomic bombs dropped makes seeing the atomic bombs dropped makes sense. sense. sense. Well, first of all, it saves you from, Well, first of all, it saves you from, Well, first of all, it saves you from, you know, if we talking about the trauma you know, if we talking about the trauma you know, if we talking about the trauma of your dad having to shoot that of your dad having to shoot that of your dad having to shoot that Japanese soldier outside the pill box on Japanese soldier outside the pill box on Japanese soldier outside the pill box on Peloo, imagine if that's a women, Peloo, imagine if that's a women, Peloo, imagine if that's a women, children situation instead. I mean, you children situation instead. I mean, you children situation instead. I mean, you just exponentially change the damage to just exponentially change the damage to just exponentially change the damage to the psyche and all that. You know, the the psyche and all that. You know, the the psyche and all that. You know, the number of veterans and this may we can number of veterans and this may we can number of veterans and this may we can blame this on propaganda. We can blame blame this on propaganda. We can blame blame this on propaganda. We can blame it on anything you want, but the number it on anything you want, but the number it on anything you want, but the number of Second World War veterans, including of Second World War veterans, including of Second World War veterans, including my stepfather, who said about the atomic my stepfather, who said about the atomic my stepfather, who said about the atomic bomb, and I'm not proitizing here either bomb, and I'm not proitizing here either bomb, and I'm not proitizing here either because it is the most horrible weapon I because it is the most horrible weapon I because it is the most horrible weapon I can think of. It saved my life. It saved can think of. It saved my life. It saved can think of. It saved my life. It saved my life. I heard that so it saved my my life. I heard that so it saved my my life. I heard that so it saved my life. Um whether or not that's true, the life. Um whether or not that's true, the life. Um whether or not that's true, the number of people who believed that and number of people who believed that and number of people who believed that and then there's a great line from the guy, then there's a great line from the guy, then there's a great line from the guy, I think it was Groves, one of the main I think it was Groves, one of the main I think it was Groves, one of the main people in the atomic uh uh development people in the atomic uh uh development people in the atomic uh uh development program who said, and again this is the program who said, and again this is the program who said, and again this is the difference between hot blood and cold difference between hot blood and cold difference between hot blood and cold blood, right? When we're examining blood, right? When we're examining blood, right? When we're examining something in cold blood, whereas the something in cold blood, whereas the something in cold blood, whereas the people examining it hot blood know that people examining it hot blood know that people examining it hot blood know that we're bombing, we're firebombing we're bombing, we're firebombing we're bombing, we're firebombing Japanese cities three times a week,

Japanese cities three times a week, Japanese cities three times a week, right? And so, so it's not like we're right? And so, so it's not like we're right? And so, so it's not like we're going from no killing to a lot of going from no killing to a lot of going from no killing to a lot of killing. We're going from a lot of killing. We're going from a lot of killing. We're going from a lot of killing to a lot of killing with a killing to a lot of killing with a killing to a lot of killing with a different weapon. And I think it was different weapon. And I think it was different weapon. And I think it was Groves who said, "If we told the Groves who said, "If we told the Groves who said, "If we told the American people that we spent all this American people that we spent all this American people that we spent all this money, time, and effort, which could money, time, and effort, which could money, time, and effort, which could have been spent somewhere else, have been spent somewhere else, have been spent somewhere else, obviously opportunity cost, on a weapon obviously opportunity cost, on a weapon obviously opportunity cost, on a weapon that we decided at the last minute not that we decided at the last minute not that we decided at the last minute not to use, they would hang us from the to use, they would hang us from the to use, they would hang us from the nearest lamppost." And that's the nearest lamppost." And that's the nearest lamppost." And that's the difference because, of course, you got difference because, of course, you got difference because, of course, you got to remember what you're saying to them. to remember what you're saying to them. to remember what you're saying to them. What you're saying to them is we're not What you're saying to them is we're not What you're saying to them is we're not going to use this on the enemy that going to use this on the enemy that going to use this on the enemy that attacked us sneakily at Pearl Harbor and attacked us sneakily at Pearl Harbor and attacked us sneakily at Pearl Harbor and your son might have to die to invade your son might have to die to invade your son might have to die to invade that island because we're not going to that island because we're not going to that island because we're not going to use it on them in hot blood several use it on them in hot blood several use it on them in hot blood several years into a war where we're not even years into a war where we're not even years into a war where we're not even taking prisoners on a lot of these taking prisoners on a lot of these taking prisoners on a lot of these islands when we're firebombing the I islands when we're firebombing the I islands when we're firebombing the I it's just it's it's again context. it's just it's it's again context. it's just it's it's again context. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the it Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the it Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the it it's it's a troubling it's all horribly it's it's a troubling it's all horribly it's it's a troubling it's all horribly troubling, you know. And your father troubling, you know. And your father troubling, you know. And your father used to bring that up. That was that was used to bring that up. That was that was used to bring that up. That was that was his I mean when you listen to him, he his I mean when you listen to him, he his I mean when you listen to him, he sounded like a guy, like you said, who sounded like a guy, like you said, who sounded like a guy, like you said, who had a job to do that was ugly and had a job to do that was ugly and had a job to do that was ugly and horrible and brutal, but he understood horrible and brutal, but he understood horrible and brutal, but he understood that he had to do it. And you know, I that he had to do it. And you know, I that he had to do it. And you know, I mean, and and the stuff about I'm sorry, mean, and and the stuff about I'm sorry, mean, and and the stuff about I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but but I didn't mean to interrupt you, but but I didn't mean to interrupt you, but but it is so much about what your dad if he it is so much about what your dad if he it is so much about what your dad if he was just a gung-ho. I mean, there's a was just a gung-ho. I mean, there's a was just a gung-ho. I mean, there's a number of different, let's call them number of different, let's call them number of different, let's call them stereotypes of a second world war combat stereotypes of a second world war combat stereotypes of a second world war combat vet. Your dad doesn't fit any of them.

vet. Your dad doesn't fit any of them. vet. Your dad doesn't fit any of them. And I think that's what makes him so And I think that's what makes him so And I think that's what makes him so different is when you listen to him, he different is when you listen to him, he different is when you listen to him, he comes off as the kind of guy who should comes off as the kind of guy who should comes off as the kind of guy who should be the spokesman for the people who be the spokesman for the people who be the spokesman for the people who fought in the Pacific War. And I think fought in the Pacific War. And I think fought in the Pacific War. And I think that's that's reflected in the that's that's reflected in the that's that's reflected in the popularity of his book and and the popularity of his book and and the popularity of his book and and the feeling a lot of us who never even met feeling a lot of us who never even met feeling a lot of us who never even met your dad have for him. your dad have for him. your dad have for him. Well, he Well, he Well, he I think his prednatural decency I think his prednatural decency I think his prednatural decency showed through, you know, and and I I showed through, you know, and and I I showed through, you know, and and I I again I go into a lot of that in the again I go into a lot of that in the again I go into a lot of that in the reminiscing I did in in my book. But I, reminiscing I did in in my book. But I, reminiscing I did in in my book. But I, you know, I I just think that you know, I I just think that you know, I I just think that for him to have gotten it all down on for him to have gotten it all down on for him to have gotten it all down on paper, he just felt driven paper, he just felt driven paper, he just felt driven to do it. And it was not a pleasant task to do it. And it was not a pleasant task to do it. And it was not a pleasant task for him to do it. And I I know that he for him to do it. And I I know that he for him to do it. And I I know that he felt that way because he said that in a felt that way because he said that in a felt that way because he said that in a letter that came to my attention that he letter that came to my attention that he letter that came to my attention that he had written to some of his comrades had written to some of his comrades had written to some of his comrades right around the time with the old breed right around the time with the old breed right around the time with the old breed was published. And and was published. And and was published. And and I just remember seeing this letter. I I just remember seeing this letter. I I just remember seeing this letter. I think I I think I saw an electronic think I I think I saw an electronic think I I think I saw an electronic image of it and he said in that letter, image of it and he said in that letter, image of it and he said in that letter, you know, I've I've had to spend the you know, I've I've had to spend the you know, I've I've had to spend the last several years last several years last several years obsessing about the details to make sure obsessing about the details to make sure obsessing about the details to make sure I got them right. like the the role of I got them right. like the the role of I got them right. like the the role of honor of somebody who got killed, making honor of somebody who got killed, making honor of somebody who got killed, making sure you got the details right.

sure you got the details right. sure you got the details right. And he said, "It has not been a it has And he said, "It has not been a it has And he said, "It has not been a it has not been a pleasant task, and I'm ready not been a pleasant task, and I'm ready not been a pleasant task, and I'm ready to lay down my pen and get on with the to lay down my pen and get on with the to lay down my pen and get on with the rest of my life." And um and and I'm, rest of my life." And um and and I'm, rest of my life." And um and and I'm, you know, Dan, honestly, I don't know you know, Dan, honestly, I don't know you know, Dan, honestly, I don't know that I'm really addressing exactly or that I'm really addressing exactly or that I'm really addressing exactly or speaking exactly to what you just said, speaking exactly to what you just said, speaking exactly to what you just said, but I do think it serves the general but I do think it serves the general but I do think it serves the general purpose of illustrating purpose of illustrating purpose of illustrating that that that this this whole business it was not this this whole business it was not this this whole business it was not something to be glorified you know to something to be glorified you know to something to be glorified you know to him warfare was the most horrible human him warfare was the most horrible human him warfare was the most horrible human condition imaginable and I think his condition imaginable and I think his condition imaginable and I think his book with the old breed it it's an book with the old breed it it's an book with the old breed it it's an interesting interesting interesting dichotomy in a way because dichotomy in a way because dichotomy in a way because a marine reads that book and they feel a marine reads that book and they feel a marine reads that book and they feel fiercely proud of being a Marine as well fiercely proud of being a Marine as well fiercely proud of being a Marine as well they should because my dad was fiercely they should because my dad was fiercely they should because my dad was fiercely proud of being a Marine proud of being a Marine proud of being a Marine And yet the book at its core is a very And yet the book at its core is a very And yet the book at its core is a very powerful anti-war statement.

powerful anti-war statement. powerful anti-war statement. And I talk in my book about because my And I talk in my book about because my And I talk in my book about because my mom passed away. Sadly, she did not live mom passed away. Sadly, she did not live mom passed away. Sadly, she did not live long enough to see my book get published long enough to see my book get published long enough to see my book get published even though she was the inspiration for even though she was the inspiration for even though she was the inspiration for me to write it. But she and I talked a me to write it. But she and I talked a me to write it. But she and I talked a little bit about um when she was still little bit about um when she was still little bit about um when she was still healthy enough to have these healthy enough to have these healthy enough to have these conversations. conversations. conversations. Um she and I talked about his feelings Um she and I talked about his feelings Um she and I talked about his feelings about the Vietnam War because I asked about the Vietnam War because I asked about the Vietnam War because I asked her about that because as if you her about that because as if you her about that because as if you remember Dan toward the end I make some remember Dan toward the end I make some remember Dan toward the end I make some some uh reference to that. That's what I some uh reference to that. That's what I some uh reference to that. That's what I that's what made me think about it. that's what made me think about it. that's what made me think about it. Yeah. And and she Exactly. and Yeah. And and she Exactly. and Yeah. And and she Exactly. and she said, "Yeah, Henry, I think your dad she said, "Yeah, Henry, I think your dad she said, "Yeah, Henry, I think your dad was so upset by the Vietnam War because was so upset by the Vietnam War because was so upset by the Vietnam War because I," this is what my mom said. I remember I," this is what my mom said. I remember I," this is what my mom said. I remember him saying to me, him saying to me, him saying to me, I thought that what my buddies and I did I thought that what my buddies and I did I thought that what my buddies and I did at Pelu in Okinawa and and everywhere at Pelu in Okinawa and and everywhere at Pelu in Okinawa and and everywhere else, you know, every other, this is me else, you know, every other, this is me else, you know, every other, this is me as a subtext here, everywhere else in as a subtext here, everywhere else in as a subtext here, everywhere else in World War II by every other World War II World War II by every other World War II World War II by every other World War II veteran. back to my dad him saying to my veteran. back to my dad him saying to my veteran. back to my dad him saying to my mom, "I thought what we went through mom, "I thought what we went through mom, "I thought what we went through there was so that we would never have to there was so that we would never have to there was so that we would never have to go through this again."

go through this again." go through this again." And yet sitting there watching the news And yet sitting there watching the news And yet sitting there watching the news as I and I remember when it just came to as I and I remember when it just came to as I and I remember when it just came to me at three o'clock in the morning that me at three o'clock in the morning that me at three o'clock in the morning that I needed to write that memory down in my I needed to write that memory down in my I needed to write that memory down in my book of him sitting there with our dog book of him sitting there with our dog book of him sitting there with our dog Holly in his lap and and seeing you know Holly in his lap and and seeing you know Holly in his lap and and seeing you know the the grainy footage of of Marines in the the grainy footage of of Marines in the the grainy footage of of Marines in Vietnam and soldiers in Vietnam and Vietnam and soldiers in Vietnam and Vietnam and soldiers in Vietnam and those those Huey choppers and you know those those Huey choppers and you know those those Huey choppers and you know wounded guys getting helped to aboard wounded guys getting helped to aboard wounded guys getting helped to aboard these choppers and you know you hear these choppers and you know you hear these choppers and you know you hear Walter Kronhite Marines taking heavy Walter Kronhite Marines taking heavy Walter Kronhite Marines taking heavy casualties in Viet that nom today. And casualties in Viet that nom today. And casualties in Viet that nom today. And you know, I just remember my dad just you know, I just remember my dad just you know, I just remember my dad just tensing up and getting so angry, you tensing up and getting so angry, you tensing up and getting so angry, you know, and now I understand why because know, and now I understand why because know, and now I understand why because in his mind it's like, look, this 20 in his mind it's like, look, this 20 in his mind it's like, look, this 20 years ago I was going through the same years ago I was going through the same years ago I was going through the same damn thing, you know, or 25 years ago it damn thing, you know, or 25 years ago it damn thing, you know, or 25 years ago it would have been really why are we doing would have been really why are we doing would have been really why are we doing it again, you know, and and that's it again, you know, and and that's it again, you know, and and that's that's a that's not a sophisticated, you that's a that's not a sophisticated, you that's a that's not a sophisticated, you know, like that's that's not getting know, like that's that's not getting know, like that's that's not getting into the geopolitical into the geopolitical into the geopolitical analytics of it. And he certainly was a analytics of it. And he certainly was a analytics of it. And he certainly was a guy who was smart enough to do that. guy who was smart enough to do that. guy who was smart enough to do that. That that's just a veteran sitting there That that's just a veteran sitting there That that's just a veteran sitting there seeing these images and speaking in the seeing these images and speaking in the seeing these images and speaking in the moment after being at work all day and moment after being at work all day and moment after being at work all day and oh here it is here. Oh, they're out.

oh here it is here. Oh, they're out. oh here it is here. Oh, they're out. They're in Vietnam today. They're now They're in Vietnam today. They're now They're in Vietnam today. They're now we're seeing guys getting shot up. I we're seeing guys getting shot up. I we're seeing guys getting shot up. I mean, you know, and some of these guys mean, you know, and some of these guys mean, you know, and some of these guys were like literally very close to soon were like literally very close to soon were like literally very close to soon being students of his. You know, it's being students of his. You know, it's being students of his. You know, it's it's one of those things, too, where he it's one of those things, too, where he it's one of those things, too, where he can instantly tap into the things that can instantly tap into the things that can instantly tap into the things that we civilians wouldn't think about. You we civilians wouldn't think about. You we civilians wouldn't think about. You mentioned it earlier. We're thinking of mentioned it earlier. We're thinking of mentioned it earlier. We're thinking of the guns and the bombs, and that's all the guns and the bombs, and that's all the guns and the bombs, and that's all well and good, but he's thinking also of well and good, but he's thinking also of well and good, but he's thinking also of the tiredness, of the grief of seeing a the tiredness, of the grief of seeing a the tiredness, of the grief of seeing a friend hurt. I mean, he he's he's tapped friend hurt. I mean, he he's he's tapped friend hurt. I mean, he he's he's tapped into the whole experience 360 when he's into the whole experience 360 when he's into the whole experience 360 when he's watching that grainy footage. Let me ask watching that grainy footage. Let me ask watching that grainy footage. Let me ask you an impossible speculative question you an impossible speculative question you an impossible speculative question here that just occurred to me. Um, sure. here that just occurred to me. Um, sure. here that just occurred to me. Um, sure. You know, this is such a crucible in You know, this is such a crucible in You know, this is such a crucible in your dad's life and in the lives of so your dad's life and in the lives of so your dad's life and in the lives of so many combat veterans listening even now many combat veterans listening even now many combat veterans listening even now from a bunch of different wars. Uh, and from a bunch of different wars. Uh, and from a bunch of different wars. Uh, and I'd wondered the same thing about then, I'd wondered the same thing about then, I'd wondered the same thing about then, but what do you think the difference in but what do you think the difference in but what do you think the difference in your dad would have been given his your dad would have been given his your dad would have been given his upbringing, his temperament, you know, upbringing, his temperament, you know, upbringing, his temperament, you know, his parents and all that if he'd never his parents and all that if he'd never his parents and all that if he'd never gone to war? If that war didn't happen gone to war? If that war didn't happen gone to war? If that war didn't happen during his lifetime and he never had to during his lifetime and he never had to during his lifetime and he never had to go through this, how I mean I to say it go through this, how I mean I to say it go through this, how I mean I to say it changes him is obvious, but can you changes him is obvious, but can you changes him is obvious, but can you imagine how Yeah, I mean that is a very speculative Yeah, I mean that is a very speculative question, but it but it's it's it's an question, but it but it's it's it's an question, but it but it's it's it's an interesting concept. I mean, interesting concept. I mean, interesting concept. I mean, when you He's going to still hunt, when you He's going to still hunt, when you He's going to still hunt, right? He's going to still hunt. There's right? He's going to still hunt. There's right? He's going to still hunt. There's going to be things that wouldn't have going to be things that wouldn't have going to be things that wouldn't have changed, right? Sure. I mean, so there I changed, right? Sure. I mean, so there I changed, right? Sure. I mean, so there I would go to the kind of man that my would go to the kind of man that my would go to the kind of man that my grandfather was and and my grandmother grandfather was and and my grandmother grandfather was and and my grandmother in the way that they raised their two

in the way that they raised their two in the way that they raised their two sons, my uncle and my dad, you know, and sons, my uncle and my dad, you know, and sons, my uncle and my dad, you know, and my grandfather was a guy who demanded my grandfather was a guy who demanded my grandfather was a guy who demanded academic excellence. He demanded uh a academic excellence. He demanded uh a academic excellence. He demanded uh a high code of conduct in his two boys. Um high code of conduct in his two boys. Um high code of conduct in his two boys. Um he was a man who was a loving father but he was a man who was a loving father but he was a man who was a loving father but didn't put up with a lot of crap from didn't put up with a lot of crap from didn't put up with a lot of crap from his children. Um and and you know that I his children. Um and and you know that I his children. Um and and you know that I literally Dan I mean I'm describing my literally Dan I mean I'm describing my literally Dan I mean I'm describing my dad and so had my father not been forged dad and so had my father not been forged dad and so had my father not been forged in the crucible of his World War II in the crucible of his World War II in the crucible of his World War II experience you know how how would he experience you know how how would he experience you know how how would he have turned out? I mean that that's a have turned out? I mean that that's a have turned out? I mean that that's a really interesting question. I mean, I really interesting question. I mean, I really interesting question. I mean, I think at his core, he would would have think at his core, he would would have think at his core, he would would have been the same been the same been the same strict but loving father, but yeah, strict but loving father, but yeah, strict but loving father, but yeah, there would have been so many things there would have been so many things there would have been so many things that, you know, he just wouldn't have that, you know, he just wouldn't have that, you know, he just wouldn't have had that perspective on like me sitting had that perspective on like me sitting had that perspective on like me sitting at the the breakfast table and at the the breakfast table and at the the breakfast table and complaining about my toast not being complaining about my toast not being complaining about my toast not being exactly right and then him sitting down exactly right and then him sitting down exactly right and then him sitting down and going, "Did I ever tell you about and going, "Did I ever tell you about and going, "Did I ever tell you about how we couldn't find a piece of bread on how we couldn't find a piece of bread on how we couldn't find a piece of bread on Okinawa that didn't have weevils in it? Okinawa that didn't have weevils in it? Okinawa that didn't have weevils in it? Did I tell you that?

Did I tell you that? Did I tell you that? That's just Wait, that's just the combat That's just Wait, that's just the combat That's just Wait, that's just the combat veteran version of we used to have to veteran version of we used to have to veteran version of we used to have to walk uphill in the snow both ways to walk uphill in the snow both ways to walk uphill in the snow both ways to school. Right. Right. Right. school. Right. Right. Right. school. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Um but you know that that I mean Yeah. Um but you know that that I mean Yeah. Um but you know that that I mean that so that so that so maybe some of that context he had like maybe some of that context he had like maybe some of that context he had like and there was some great stuff that got and there was some great stuff that got and there was some great stuff that got edited out of the Ory that I was really edited out of the Ory that I was really edited out of the Ory that I was really blessed to be able to use in my book. um blessed to be able to use in my book. um blessed to be able to use in my book. um where he he talked about buddies of where he he talked about buddies of where he he talked about buddies of theirs who rotated home and would write theirs who rotated home and would write theirs who rotated home and would write letters back to him when they were you letters back to him when they were you letters back to him when they were you know stalled out in front of Shuri you know stalled out in front of Shuri you know stalled out in front of Shuri you know sitting in the in the the you know know sitting in the in the the you know know sitting in the in the the you know flung into hell's own cesspool as my dad flung into hell's own cesspool as my dad flung into hell's own cesspool as my dad described it so horribly beautifully described it so horribly beautifully described it so horribly beautifully um and you know he that that that um and you know he that that that um and you know he that that that context of these guys you know we came context of these guys you know we came context of these guys you know we came home and home and home and hear people complaining about having to hear people complaining about having to hear people complaining about having to wait in a line or getting coffee that wait in a line or getting coffee that wait in a line or getting coffee that isn't hot enough. You know, how do you isn't hot enough. You know, how do you isn't hot enough. You know, how do you complain about that when complain about that when complain about that when you can't imagine getting a drink of you can't imagine getting a drink of you can't imagine getting a drink of water that's filled with rust and diesel water that's filled with rust and diesel water that's filled with rust and diesel fuel, you know, which is what they had fuel, you know, which is what they had fuel, you know, which is what they had on Peloo at first, on Peloo at first, on Peloo at first, uh because they hadn't steam clean the uh because they hadn't steam clean the uh because they hadn't steam clean the drums properly on Pavu, you know. Um or drums properly on Pavu, you know. Um or drums properly on Pavu, you know. Um or you complain about something and my dad you complain about something and my dad you complain about something and my dad would just look at you and go, "I'm just would just look at you and go, "I'm just would just look at you and go, "I'm just happy I have dry socks." I remember that happy I have dry socks." I remember that happy I have dry socks." I remember that line. Listen, you mentioned the Shuri line. Listen, you mentioned the Shuri line. Listen, you mentioned the Shuri situation. Uh I have a quote from your situation. Uh I have a quote from your situation. Uh I have a quote from your book right here. Ladies and gentlemen,

book right here. Ladies and gentlemen, book right here. Ladies and gentlemen, this is from uh Henry's book and his dad this is from uh Henry's book and his dad this is from uh Henry's book and his dad remembers sitting in front of Shuri and remembers sitting in front of Shuri and remembers sitting in front of Shuri and how the situation descended into a how the situation descended into a how the situation descended into a morass of horror. Uh this is a quote morass of horror. Uh this is a quote morass of horror. Uh this is a quote from his dad. quote, "The longer we from his dad. quote, "The longer we from his dad. quote, "The longer we stayed in that terrible place, and we stayed in that terrible place, and we stayed in that terrible place, and we stayed there over a week in almost stayed there over a week in almost stayed there over a week in almost incessant cold rain, our environment incessant cold rain, our environment incessant cold rain, our environment congealed more and more into a ghastly congealed more and more into a ghastly congealed more and more into a ghastly nightmare of mud, murderous shelling, nightmare of mud, murderous shelling, nightmare of mud, murderous shelling, casualties, rotting bodies, and maggots. casualties, rotting bodies, and maggots. casualties, rotting bodies, and maggots. The place was enough to drive a strong The place was enough to drive a strong The place was enough to drive a strong man insane, and some did become man insane, and some did become man insane, and some did become emotionally shattered because of it. I emotionally shattered because of it. I emotionally shattered because of it. I never saw more pathetic wounded and never saw more pathetic wounded and never saw more pathetic wounded and killed than we lost each day here." end killed than we lost each day here." end killed than we lost each day here." end quote. Uh I mean that's the kind of quote. Uh I mean that's the kind of quote. Uh I mean that's the kind of stuff it is. You're right. That's both stuff it is. You're right. That's both stuff it is. You're right. That's both something to be proud of as a Marine and something to be proud of as a Marine and something to be proud of as a Marine and at the same time a ferocious anti-war at the same time a ferocious anti-war at the same time a ferocious anti-war statement. statement. statement. Yeah. Well, and and to to carry that Yeah. Well, and and to to carry that Yeah. Well, and and to to carry that even further, Dan. Um and and thank you even further, Dan. Um and and thank you even further, Dan. Um and and thank you for reading that because that I mean I I for reading that because that I mean I I for reading that because that I mean I I just the opportunity to find this just the opportunity to find this just the opportunity to find this unpublished material unpublished material unpublished material um from my dad's book was just such an um from my dad's book was just such an um from my dad's book was just such an incredible thing. But you you just you incredible thing. But you you just you incredible thing. But you you just you you just have to try to imagine that, you just have to try to imagine that, you just have to try to imagine that, you know, all of it was this you know, all of it was this you know, all of it was this dehumanizing dehumanizing dehumanizing experience, you know, that he just experience, you know, that he just experience, you know, that he just wanted to survive and forget about and wanted to survive and forget about and wanted to survive and forget about and then to have to relive it all to re to then to have to relive it all to re to then to have to relive it all to re to write what he wrote, you know, um that

write what he wrote, you know, um that write what he wrote, you know, um that was an amazing thing to have was an amazing thing to have was an amazing thing to have accomplished. Henry, did he write it to accomplished. Henry, did he write it to accomplished. Henry, did he write it to be published originally or did he write be published originally or did he write be published originally or did he write it more for you guys? He wrote it for it more for you guys? He wrote it for it more for you guys? He wrote it for the family. Um, and I do remember the family. Um, and I do remember the family. Um, and I do remember talking to him about that because talking to him about that because talking to him about that because um, and as I talked about in in in my um, and as I talked about in in in my um, and as I talked about in in in my thing there, Dan, I mean, my mom is the thing there, Dan, I mean, my mom is the thing there, Dan, I mean, my mom is the one because she started typing it. He one because she started typing it. He one because she started typing it. He asked her to type the manuscript and I asked her to type the manuscript and I asked her to type the manuscript and I remember not long before she passed remember not long before she passed remember not long before she passed away, she she told me her memory of away, she she told me her memory of away, she she told me her memory of that. Um, she said, "I didn't want to that. Um, she said, "I didn't want to that. Um, she said, "I didn't want to type it." You know, he was writing it type it." You know, he was writing it type it." You know, he was writing it all by hand on on yellow legal pads and all by hand on on yellow legal pads and all by hand on on yellow legal pads and and pencil and he asked me, she my mom and pencil and he asked me, she my mom and pencil and he asked me, she my mom said he asked me to type it and she said said he asked me to type it and she said said he asked me to type it and she said I didn't want to at first. And he said, I didn't want to at first. And he said, I didn't want to at first. And he said, "Well, if you don't, I'm going to have "Well, if you don't, I'm going to have "Well, if you don't, I'm going to have to pay somebody to do it." And so she to pay somebody to do it." And so she to pay somebody to do it." And so she relented and she did. And my mother was relented and she did. And my mother was relented and she did. And my mother was an incredibly smart and preient lady. an incredibly smart and preient lady. an incredibly smart and preient lady. And as she typed it, as she began to go And as she typed it, as she began to go And as she typed it, as she began to go down into the abyss with him and down into the abyss with him and down into the abyss with him and experienced through his writing of what experienced through his writing of what experienced through his writing of what he experienced, she realized what a he experienced, she realized what a he experienced, she realized what a powerful story it was. And she was the powerful story it was. And she was the powerful story it was. And she was the one who said, "We need to try to get one who said, "We need to try to get one who said, "We need to try to get this published." And and he of course this published." And and he of course this published." And and he of course desissented. He disagreed. Um but no desissented. He disagreed. Um but no desissented. He disagreed. Um but no originally it was to be for my brother originally it was to be for my brother originally it was to be for my brother and me for for the family to just have and me for for the family to just have and me for for the family to just have some understanding of what he had gone some understanding of what he had gone some understanding of what he had gone through and part of what motivated him through and part of what motivated him through and part of what motivated him to do that.

to do that. to do that. Um, I mean, obviously a lot of it was to Um, I mean, obviously a lot of it was to Um, I mean, obviously a lot of it was to tell the story of his buddies because I tell the story of his buddies because I tell the story of his buddies because I say that in my book, but but the other say that in my book, but but the other say that in my book, but but the other thing that I don't think I go into was thing that I don't think I go into was thing that I don't think I go into was the fact that we had ancestors in the the fact that we had ancestors in the the fact that we had ancestors in the Civil War who had written letters back Civil War who had written letters back Civil War who had written letters back home and my dad had been able to read home and my dad had been able to read home and my dad had been able to read some of those letters and it was so some of those letters and it was so some of those letters and it was so fascinating to him to read what, you fascinating to him to read what, you fascinating to him to read what, you know, I mean, imagine reading a letter know, I mean, imagine reading a letter know, I mean, imagine reading a letter of what an ancestor went through at of what an ancestor went through at of what an ancestor went through at Island Number 10 or Chickamoga. Island Number 10 or Chickamoga. Island Number 10 or Chickamoga. you know, or Vixsburg or or Gettysburg you know, or Vixsburg or or Gettysburg you know, or Vixsburg or or Gettysburg or, you know, which I didn't have any or, you know, which I didn't have any or, you know, which I didn't have any ancestors at Gettysburg, but um you ancestors at Gettysburg, but um you ancestors at Gettysburg, but um you know, imagine reading a letter where know, imagine reading a letter where know, imagine reading a letter where they're describing what they're seeing. they're describing what they're seeing. they're describing what they're seeing. I mean, that that's maybe not everybody I mean, that that's maybe not everybody I mean, that that's maybe not everybody finds that interesting. I do and my dad finds that interesting. I do and my dad finds that interesting. I do and my dad did and I think he realized, you know, did and I think he realized, you know, did and I think he realized, you know, maybe I need to record my experience. maybe I need to record my experience. maybe I need to record my experience. Maybe I need to to write it down so that Maybe I need to to write it down so that Maybe I need to to write it down so that the family will just have some, you the family will just have some, you the family will just have some, you know, some idea of what we did and what know, some idea of what we did and what know, some idea of what we did and what we saw. And and also at the heart of it, we saw. And and also at the heart of it, we saw. And and also at the heart of it, Dan, is like and any veteran would say Dan, is like and any veteran would say Dan, is like and any veteran would say this. I mean, he's thinking of his this. I mean, he's thinking of his this. I mean, he's thinking of his buddies who got killed and he didn't buddies who got killed and he didn't buddies who got killed and he didn't want them to die for nothing.

want them to die for nothing. want them to die for nothing. Let's talk about that for a minute Let's talk about that for a minute Let's talk about that for a minute because you know um there have been some because you know um there have been some because you know um there have been some interesting things written over the interesting things written over the interesting things written over the years about the difference in the years about the difference in the years about the difference in the American military of that time period American military of that time period American military of that time period and the American military today. The and the American military today. The and the American military today. The difference in the kind of troops you get difference in the kind of troops you get difference in the kind of troops you get in a professional volunteer military in a professional volunteer military in a professional volunteer military versus the kind that sweeps from a versus the kind that sweeps from a versus the kind that sweeps from a larger segment of the population maybe larger segment of the population maybe larger segment of the population maybe including people that don't want to be including people that don't want to be including people that don't want to be there. Um, it strikes me reading about there. Um, it strikes me reading about there. Um, it strikes me reading about your dad's situation and and hearing your dad's situation and and hearing your dad's situation and and hearing about all his buddies that it, you know, about all his buddies that it, you know, about all his buddies that it, you know, you get such a wide range of different you get such a wide range of different you get such a wide range of different people from different economic levels, people from different economic levels, people from different economic levels, from different backgrounds, from from different backgrounds, from from different backgrounds, from different parts of the country. Uh, and different parts of the country. Uh, and different parts of the country. Uh, and then you go back home maybe after the then you go back home maybe after the then you go back home maybe after the war and the only thing that really war and the only thing that really war and the only thing that really connects you to each other and it's a connects you to each other and it's a connects you to each other and it's a huge thing is what you experienced. Did huge thing is what you experienced. Did huge thing is what you experienced. Did your dad stay close to the people? I your dad stay close to the people? I your dad stay close to the people? I mean, snafu comes to mind, but there's a mean, snafu comes to mind, but there's a mean, snafu comes to mind, but there's a lot of Did your dad stay close to the lot of Did your dad stay close to the lot of Did your dad stay close to the buddies? And if so, was there more to it buddies? And if so, was there more to it buddies? And if so, was there more to it than than their shared experience? Or I than than their shared experience? Or I than than their shared experience? Or I mean, talk to me a little about that mean, talk to me a little about that mean, talk to me a little about that because it would seem to me that there's because it would seem to me that there's because it would seem to me that there's very few people that you could have a very few people that you could have a very few people that you could have a real deep um psychologically cleansing real deep um psychologically cleansing real deep um psychologically cleansing conversation about these sorts of things conversation about these sorts of things conversation about these sorts of things with than the people who experienced with than the people who experienced with than the people who experienced them with you.

them with you. them with you. Certainly not on that visceral level, Certainly not on that visceral level, Certainly not on that visceral level, you know, where they could understand you know, where they could understand you know, where they could understand each other. Um yeah, he he did stay in each other. Um yeah, he he did stay in each other. Um yeah, he he did stay in touch with his buddies because he he touch with his buddies because he he touch with his buddies because he he wrote letters with them. and he had wrote letters with them. and he had wrote letters with them. and he had phone calls uh with them as he was phone calls uh with them as he was phone calls uh with them as he was riding with the orbee because he wanted riding with the orbee because he wanted riding with the orbee because he wanted to he wanted to make sure that that he to he wanted to make sure that that he to he wanted to make sure that that he got it right, you know. He wanted to got it right, you know. He wanted to got it right, you know. He wanted to make sure that um he got the details make sure that um he got the details make sure that um he got the details right, that he was accurate, that he was right, that he was accurate, that he was right, that he was accurate, that he was not putting something into print that not putting something into print that not putting something into print that that a fellow Marine would not approve that a fellow Marine would not approve that a fellow Marine would not approve of. Um because I can tell you and of. Um because I can tell you and of. Um because I can tell you and probably any veteran would say this, you probably any veteran would say this, you probably any veteran would say this, you know, it's it was one thing to see a a a know, it's it was one thing to see a a a know, it's it was one thing to see a a a positive review of his book by, you positive review of his book by, you positive review of his book by, you know, a a literary professional, know, a a literary professional, know, a a literary professional, but the the opinions that mattered to but the the opinions that mattered to but the the opinions that mattered to him the most, and I think I saw where he him the most, and I think I saw where he him the most, and I think I saw where he said this in a letter somewhere, the said this in a letter somewhere, the said this in a letter somewhere, the opinions that mattered to him the most opinions that mattered to him the most opinions that mattered to him the most were the opinions of his fellow Marines. were the opinions of his fellow Marines. were the opinions of his fellow Marines. And and so, you know, he he the guys And and so, you know, he he the guys And and so, you know, he he the guys like like Jay Dow and Stumpy Stanley and like like Jay Dow and Stumpy Stanley and like like Jay Dow and Stumpy Stanley and and Snafu and, you know, Bill Leaden, he and Snafu and, you know, Bill Leaden, he and Snafu and, you know, Bill Leaden, he and Bill became really close. Um, and Bill became really close. Um, and Bill became really close. Um, you know, many times he had late night you know, many times he had late night you know, many times he had late night phone calls with those guys and and I phone calls with those guys and and I phone calls with those guys and and I guess I'm sure that they had guess I'm sure that they had guess I'm sure that they had conversations with each other. I know conversations with each other. I know conversations with each other. I know they did at reunions um where they they did at reunions um where they they did at reunions um where they talked about some tough things and talked about some tough things and talked about some tough things and reminisced about reminisced about reminisced about lives lost

lives lost lives lost but what I remember from the phone calls but what I remember from the phone calls but what I remember from the phone calls the late night phone calls the back when the late night phone calls the back when the late night phone calls the back when I was a kid and he was writing with the I was a kid and he was writing with the I was a kid and he was writing with the old breed u it's a happy memory you know old breed u it's a happy memory you know old breed u it's a happy memory you know and I think I describe it as such in in and I think I describe it as such in in and I think I describe it as such in in the old breed the complete story the old breed the complete story the old breed the complete story revealed um because you know he he'd get revealed um because you know he he'd get revealed um because you know he he'd get in there in the he'd go in there and in there in the he'd go in there and in there in the he'd go in there and close the door. And if it was Bill Lead, close the door. And if it was Bill Lead, close the door. And if it was Bill Lead, hey Billy, how you doing? And you know, hey Billy, how you doing? And you know, hey Billy, how you doing? And you know, and they and of course Bill Leaden was and they and of course Bill Leaden was and they and of course Bill Leaden was this jolly auncular New York guy, you this jolly auncular New York guy, you this jolly auncular New York guy, you know. Oh. Oh, Eugene, it's so good to know. Oh. Oh, Eugene, it's so good to know. Oh. Oh, Eugene, it's so good to hear you. How you doing? You know, and hear you. How you doing? You know, and hear you. How you doing? You know, and um and I, you know, I could just hear my um and I, you know, I could just hear my um and I, you know, I could just hear my dad guffawing dad guffawing dad guffawing for hours. I mean, they because they'd for hours. I mean, they because they'd for hours. I mean, they because they'd be reminiscing about more pleasant be reminiscing about more pleasant be reminiscing about more pleasant memories, you know. Um, and so memories, you know. Um, and so memories, you know. Um, and so yeah, I mean that was that was a yeah, I mean that was that was a yeah, I mean that was that was a positive aspect to it. But but I think positive aspect to it. But but I think positive aspect to it. But but I think at the reunions when he actually saw at the reunions when he actually saw at the reunions when he actually saw those guys and he and he did start going those guys and he and he did start going those guys and he and he did start going to reunions once his book came out. Um, to reunions once his book came out. Um, to reunions once his book came out. Um, I think that you know there there were I think that you know there there were I think that you know there there were some hard conversations I'm sure some some hard conversations I'm sure some some hard conversations I'm sure some hard late night conver I mean I didn't hard late night conver I mean I didn't hard late night conver I mean I didn't personally see that personally see that personally see that but I know that that they were there as but I know that that they were there as but I know that that they were there as they would be with any group of they would be with any group of they would be with any group of veterans.

My thanks to Henry Sledge for coming on My thanks to Henry Sledge for coming on the program, for writing the book, The the program, for writing the book, The the program, for writing the book, The Old Breed: The Complete Story Revealed, Old Breed: The Complete Story Revealed, Old Breed: The Complete Story Revealed, available now, by the way. Uh, if you're available now, by the way. Uh, if you're available now, by the way. Uh, if you're a fan of his dad, you're going to want a fan of his dad, you're going to want a fan of his dad, you're going to want that book anyway. If you're interested that book anyway. If you're interested that book anyway. If you're interested in the war at all, and you haven't read in the war at all, and you haven't read in the war at all, and you haven't read his dad's book, read that, then read his dad's book, read that, then read his dad's book, read that, then read this. I mean, there's a, you know, an this. I mean, there's a, you know, an this. I mean, there's a, you know, an order to go in. But he's one of the order to go in. But he's one of the order to go in. But he's one of the fabulously interesting people on the fabulously interesting people on the fabulously interesting people on the American side from that conflict. And um American side from that conflict. And um American side from that conflict. And um one of the best representatives you're one of the best representatives you're one of the best representatives you're going to find of these three-dimensional going to find of these three-dimensional going to find of these three-dimensional figures who so often in our history figures who so often in our history figures who so often in our history books uh in our writings, especially in books uh in our writings, especially in books uh in our writings, especially in the immediate post-war period, come off the immediate post-war period, come off the immediate post-war period, come off as like comic book characters. And as like comic book characters. And as like comic book characters. And they're much more deep and reflective they're much more deep and reflective they're much more deep and reflective and um and um and um impacted by their service than that. And impacted by their service than that. And impacted by their service than that. And those sorts of nuances are part of why those sorts of nuances are part of why those sorts of nuances are part of why so many of us have been interested in so many of us have been interested in so many of us have been interested in military history for so long. Something military history for so long. Something military history for so long. Something that's not understood often by people that's not understood often by people that's not understood often by people outside of the interest is the outside of the interest is the outside of the interest is the multi-unionlike multi-unionlike multi-unionlike layers that go into something like this. layers that go into something like this. layers that go into something like this. And I've never seen a better And I've never seen a better And I've never seen a better representative of those things than representative of those things than representative of those things than Eugene Sledge. So my thanks to Big Shot Eugene Sledge. So my thanks to Big Shot Eugene Sledge. So my thanks to Big Shot Henry Sledge for coming on the program Henry Sledge for coming on the program Henry Sledge for coming on the program today. Go out and get the book. You'll today. Go out and get the book. You'll today. Go out and get the book. You'll love it. And as usual, thanks a ton for love it. And as usual, thanks a ton for love it. And as usual, thanks a ton for listening everyone.

If you think the show you just heard is If you think the show you just heard is worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love worth a dollar, Dan and Ben would love to have it. Go to dancarlin.com for to have it. Go to dancarlin.com for to have it. Go to dancarlin.com for information on how to donate to the information on how to donate to the information on how to donate to the show. So, who says we don't take show. So, who says we don't take show. So, who says we don't take requests? I don't do a lot of live requests? I don't do a lot of live requests? I don't do a lot of live events, but I've I've started doing a events, but I've I've started doing a events, but I've I've started doing a few here and there, and they tend to be few here and there, and they tend to be few here and there, and they tend to be sort of either nearby or places I'm sort of either nearby or places I'm sort of either nearby or places I'm going to anyway, and they just get added going to anyway, and they just get added going to anyway, and they just get added to the list if I say, "Well, I'm going to the list if I say, "Well, I'm going to the list if I say, "Well, I'm going to be here. Can we do something?" So, I to be here. Can we do something?" So, I to be here. Can we do something?" So, I I get requests to come to cities uh that I get requests to come to cities uh that I get requests to come to cities uh that I haven't been to yet. Um, and so we're I haven't been to yet. Um, and so we're I haven't been to yet. Um, and so we're filling some of those requests now to filling some of those requests now to filling some of those requests now to show you what a genius I am. I'm going show you what a genius I am. I'm going show you what a genius I am. I'm going to the south in August. That's right, to the south in August. That's right, to the south in August. That's right, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, I'm going to ladies and gentlemen. Uh, I'm going to ladies and gentlemen. Uh, I'm going to do what I'm calling internally anyway do what I'm calling internally anyway do what I'm calling internally anyway here, the Southern Fried Unicorn Tour, here, the Southern Fried Unicorn Tour, here, the Southern Fried Unicorn Tour, because we always say there's no because we always say there's no because we always say there's no rainbows and unicorns in this program. rainbows and unicorns in this program. rainbows and unicorns in this program. There may be no happy ending. Um, but There may be no happy ending. Um, but There may be no happy ending. Um, but you know, it's hardcore history. It's you know, it's hardcore history. It's you know, it's hardcore history. It's not softcore history. uh if you'd like not softcore history. uh if you'd like not softcore history. uh if you'd like to see one of the live events and to see one of the live events and to see one of the live events and generally we have a person uh who goes generally we have a person uh who goes generally we have a person uh who goes on there with me who sort of acts as a on there with me who sort of acts as a on there with me who sort of acts as a prompter or what have you sort of runs prompter or what have you sort of runs prompter or what have you sort of runs the the show and every one of those the the show and every one of those the the show and every one of those people at every event we've done has people at every event we've done has people at every event we've done has been different and because of that you been different and because of that you been different and because of that you get a very different kind of event every get a very different kind of event every get a very different kind of event every time they've all been very different time they've all been very different time they've all been very different from one another and then usually uh from one another and then usually uh from one another and then usually uh sometimes we haven't been able to do sometimes we haven't been able to do sometimes we haven't been able to do this usually we get questions asked from this usually we get questions asked from this usually we get questions asked from the audience and then that turns it into the audience and then that turns it into the audience and then that turns it into a a unique event every time I always run a a unique event every time I always run a a unique event every time I always run long so if you want to get your money's long so if you want to get your money's long so if you want to get your money's worth um uh you want to go to one of worth um uh you want to go to one of worth um uh you want to go to one of these shows if you have a problem with a these shows if you have a problem with a these shows if you have a problem with a babysitter who needs needs to be home at babysitter who needs needs to be home at babysitter who needs needs to be home at a certain time. All I can say is maybe a certain time. All I can say is maybe a certain time. All I can say is maybe pay her some overtime. In any case, I'll pay her some overtime. In any case, I'll pay her some overtime. In any case, I'll be in Atlanta August 1st, Raleigh, North be in Atlanta August 1st, Raleigh, North be in Atlanta August 1st, Raleigh, North Carolina August 2nd, uh Austin on August

Carolina August 2nd, uh Austin on August Carolina August 2nd, uh Austin on August 15th, and Houston on August 16th. I'd 15th, and Houston on August 16th. I'd 15th, and Houston on August 16th. I'd love to see you out there. And listen, love to see you out there. And listen, love to see you out there. And listen, I'm You asked for it, we responded. How I'm You asked for it, we responded. How I'm You asked for it, we responded. How about that? The uh Southern Fried about that? The uh Southern Fried about that? The uh Southern Fried Unicorn Tour coming to a theater near Unicorn Tour coming to a theater near Unicorn Tour coming to a theater near you if you happen to live in one of you if you happen to live in one of you if you happen to live in one of those cities. Go to dancarlin.com. those cities. Go to dancarlin.com. those cities. Go to dancarlin.com. We have um places where you can get the We have um places where you can get the We have um places where you can get the tickets right off the front page of the tickets right off the front page of the tickets right off the front page of the website. And by the way, going back to website. And by the way, going back to website. And by the way, going back to what is sort of becoming home base for what is sort of becoming home base for what is sort of becoming home base for us here, uh the Drowned Unicorn uh tour, us here, uh the Drowned Unicorn uh tour, us here, uh the Drowned Unicorn uh tour, uh going back to Portland um in uh going back to Portland um in uh going back to Portland um in September, those tickets available on September, those tickets available on September, those tickets available on the website as well.