Alex O’Connor’s NEW Compelling Case AGAINST Christianity

I like to talk about Mormonism. And I I like to talk about Mormonism. And I like to do it for a few reasons. like to do it for a few reasons. like to do it for a few reasons. Firstly, because it usually offers a bit Firstly, because it usually offers a bit Firstly, because it usually offers a bit of a sort of left-field comparison for of a sort of left-field comparison for of a sort of left-field comparison for Christians, but also in this context, I Christians, but also in this context, I Christians, but also in this context, I know that Trent has spent a lot of time know that Trent has spent a lot of time know that Trent has spent a lot of time looking into Mormonism and debating looking into Mormonism and debating looking into Mormonism and debating Mormonism. I would like to tell people, Mormonism. I would like to tell people, Mormonism. I would like to tell people, for example, for example, for example, that if you pick up any copy of the Book that if you pick up any copy of the Book that if you pick up any copy of the Book of Mormon, it always begins with of Mormon, it always begins with of Mormon, it always begins with testimonies from first the three testimonies from first the three testimonies from first the three witnesses, and then secondly, the eight witnesses, and then secondly, the eight witnesses, and then secondly, the eight witnesses. And these are men who claimed witnesses. And these are men who claimed witnesses. And these are men who claimed to see, in the first instance, Joseph to see, in the first instance, Joseph to see, in the first instance, Joseph Smith uh the golden plates of Joseph Smith uh the golden plates of Joseph Smith uh the golden plates of Joseph Smith be handed by an angel to Joseph Smith be handed by an angel to Joseph Smith be handed by an angel to Joseph Smith. Now, those first three witnesses Smith. Now, those first three witnesses Smith. Now, those first three witnesses claimed that they saw this. claimed that they saw this. claimed that they saw this. >> Can already make the point that the >> Can already make the point that the >> Can already make the point that the famous Bart Ehrman used the argument of famous Bart Ehrman used the argument of famous Bart Ehrman used the argument of Mormonism, which is very compelling in Mormonism, which is very compelling in Mormonism, which is very compelling in many ways. You know, it's closer to the many ways. You know, it's closer to the many ways. You know, it's closer to the source. It's also way more recent. It source. It's also way more recent. It source. It's also way more recent. It wasn't 2,000 years ago. Now, I'm a wasn't 2,000 years ago. Now, I'm a wasn't 2,000 years ago. Now, I'm a Christian, but I will admit this is Christian, but I will admit this is Christian, but I will admit this is quite an amazing point. And Alex is quite an amazing point. And Alex is quite an amazing point. And Alex is going to expand on this more. But in the going to expand on this more. But in the going to expand on this more. But in the debate with Justin Bass, he does make debate with Justin Bass, he does make debate with Justin Bass, he does make this point, Bart Ehrman, the historian. this point, Bart Ehrman, the historian. this point, Bart Ehrman, the historian. And it really does have some weight. And And it really does have some weight. And And it really does have some weight. And I think as Christians, we must really I think as Christians, we must really I think as Christians, we must really reflect on this. Because when people reflect on this. Because when people reflect on this. Because when people speak about eyewitness testimonies or speak about eyewitness testimonies or speak about eyewitness testimonies or oral sources or like when other people oral sources or like when other people oral sources or like when other people who aren't Christian make this point, we who aren't Christian make this point, we who aren't Christian make this point, we need to take on what they're actually need to take on what they're actually need to take on what they're actually saying, even if it is uncomfortable. You saying, even if it is uncomfortable. You saying, even if it is uncomfortable. You know, even if even if this is a great know, even if even if this is a great know, even if even if this is a great argument that does actually go against a argument that does actually go against a argument that does actually go against a lot of the eyewitness versions that we lot of the eyewitness versions that we lot of the eyewitness versions that we believe to be true, and also the believe to be true, and also the believe to be true, and also the credibility of them, and also even just credibility of them, and also even just credibility of them, and also even just an apologetic argument. Now, obviously, an apologetic argument. Now, obviously, an apologetic argument. Now, obviously, there's the argument about the there's the argument about the there's the argument about the predisposition to believe certain things predisposition to believe certain things predisposition to believe certain things and etc. But anyway, we'll hear more and etc. But anyway, we'll hear more and etc. But anyway, we'll hear more from from from >> the amazing Alex O'Connor.

>> the amazing Alex O'Connor. >> the amazing Alex O'Connor. >> it because it's like two of them saw it >> it because it's like two of them saw it >> it because it's like two of them saw it at the same time, and then one of them at the same time, and then one of them at the same time, and then one of them saw it later. And you might say that he saw it later. And you might say that he saw it later. And you might say that he was hallucinating, but I would say, "How was hallucinating, but I would say, "How was hallucinating, but I would say, "How do you account for the corroboration do you account for the corroboration do you account for the corroboration between that and the other two?" Uh at between that and the other two?" Uh at between that and the other two?" Uh at the very least, these men who claimed to the very least, these men who claimed to the very least, these men who claimed to see something, again, collectively, see something, again, collectively, see something, again, collectively, which I don't think Trent can grant which I don't think Trent can grant which I don't think Trent can grant happened. I don't think he can grant happened. I don't think he can grant happened. I don't think he can grant that an angel gave Joseph Smith the that an angel gave Joseph Smith the that an angel gave Joseph Smith the golden plates. And yet, they claimed to golden plates. And yet, they claimed to golden plates. And yet, they claimed to have seen this. And there's something have seen this. And there's something have seen this. And there's something extra here that you don't get in the extra here that you don't get in the extra here that you don't get in the Christian tradition, which is that it's Christian tradition, which is that it's Christian tradition, which is that it's kind of a reverse pool. People often kind of a reverse pool. People often kind of a reverse pool. People often say, "Well, Paul used to persecute say, "Well, Paul used to persecute say, "Well, Paul used to persecute Christians, so why would he see this Christians, so why would he see this Christians, so why would he see this vision?" This is the other way around vision?" This is the other way around vision?" This is the other way around and I think therefore stronger. All and I think therefore stronger. All and I think therefore stronger. All three of these men were eventually three of these men were eventually three of these men were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon Church. excommunicated from the Mormon Church. excommunicated from the Mormon Church. They were They They fell out with Joseph They were They They fell out with Joseph They were They They fell out with Joseph Smith and they were excommunicated from Smith and they were excommunicated from Smith and they were excommunicated from the church. Yet, until the day of their the church. Yet, until the day of their the church. Yet, until the day of their death, death, death, they asserted that they had seen the they asserted that they had seen the they asserted that they had seen the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon. It's It's complicated as as Trent knows. It's It's complicated as as Trent knows. It's It's complicated as as Trent knows. Uh Uh Uh Martin Harris is said to have sort of Martin Harris is said to have sort of Martin Harris is said to have sort of seen the plates with his spiritual eyes. seen the plates with his spiritual eyes. seen the plates with his spiritual eyes. So, I'm I'm attempting to draw an So, I'm I'm attempting to draw an So, I'm I'm attempting to draw an analogy here, right? So, Martin Harris analogy here, right? So, Martin Harris analogy here, right? So, Martin Harris is one of the three witnesses, the other is one of the three witnesses, the other is one of the three witnesses, the other being Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer.

being Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. being Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And in 1838, Stephen Burnett claims that And in 1838, Stephen Burnett claims that And in 1838, Stephen Burnett claims that Martin Harris didn't see it with his Martin Harris didn't see it with his Martin Harris didn't see it with his natural eyes, but it was a kind of natural eyes, but it was a kind of natural eyes, but it was a kind of vision. vision. vision. But then Martin Harris later said, But then Martin Harris later said, But then Martin Harris later said, "Look, as surely as I see my hands, "Look, as surely as I see my hands, "Look, as surely as I see my hands, I saw the golden plates." I saw the golden plates." I saw the golden plates." What I want to point out is that there What I want to point out is that there What I want to point out is that there are analogs here, which is that you've are analogs here, which is that you've are analogs here, which is that you've got this sort of claim of group got this sort of claim of group got this sort of claim of group appearances, which seem a little bit appearances, which seem a little bit appearances, which seem a little bit strange. strange. strange. You've got this kind of reason why maybe You've got this kind of reason why maybe You've got this kind of reason why maybe they wouldn't want to make this claim. they wouldn't want to make this claim. they wouldn't want to make this claim. And then you've got this slight debate And then you've got this slight debate And then you've got this slight debate over, "Well, was it physical? Was it over, "Well, was it physical? Was it over, "Well, was it physical? Was it spiritual?" We're not entirely sure. Um spiritual?" We're not entirely sure. Um spiritual?" We're not entirely sure. Um people often talk about the people often talk about the people often talk about the the persecution of the apostles. So, the persecution of the apostles. So, the persecution of the apostles. So, when I bring up the Mormon Church, when I bring up the Mormon Church, when I bring up the Mormon Church, people say, "Oh, yeah, but you don't people say, "Oh, yeah, but you don't people say, "Oh, yeah, but you don't understand that Christians were understand that Christians were understand that Christians were persecuted. They were put to death by persecuted. They were put to death by persecuted. They were put to death by Nero and Diocletian." And I'm like, Nero and Diocletian." And I'm like, Nero and Diocletian." And I'm like, "Have you looked into Mormon history? Do "Have you looked into Mormon history? Do "Have you looked into Mormon history? Do you not know that in the lifetimes of you not know that in the lifetimes of you not know that in the lifetimes of these witnesses and other witnesses to these witnesses and other witnesses to these witnesses and other witnesses to Mormon miracles, Mormon miracles, Mormon miracles, Mormons were persecuted by the United Mormons were persecuted by the United Mormons were persecuted by the United States of America. There was There was States of America. There was There was States of America. There was There was the There was the Mormon Extermination the There was the Mormon Extermination the There was the Mormon Extermination Act in in Missouri, which literally Act in in Missouri, which literally Act in in Missouri, which literally called for the extermination and called for the extermination and called for the extermination and expulsion of Mormons. They were chased expulsion of Mormons. They were chased expulsion of Mormons. They were chased out of basically every state that they out of basically every state that they out of basically every state that they went into." In other words, I'd like to went into." In other words, I'd like to went into." In other words, I'd like to know how we explain that. There's then know how we explain that. There's then know how we explain that. There's then the eight witnesses who don't witness the eight witnesses who don't witness the eight witnesses who don't witness the angel, but they do witness the the angel, but they do witness the the angel, but they do witness the golden plates. Eight of them who again golden plates. Eight of them who again golden plates. Eight of them who again three of those guys also lose touch with three of those guys also lose touch with three of those guys also lose touch with the Mormon Church, fall out with Joseph the Mormon Church, fall out with Joseph the Mormon Church, fall out with Joseph Smith, and get excommunicated, but still Smith, and get excommunicated, but still Smith, and get excommunicated, but still attest that that's what they saw.

attest that that's what they saw. attest that that's what they saw. More to the point though, More to the point though, More to the point though, there's this extraordinary event which I there's this extraordinary event which I there's this extraordinary event which I found when I was researching the the found when I was researching the the found when I was researching the the history of the Mormon church a while history of the Mormon church a while history of the Mormon church a while ago, which is ago, which is ago, which is a transfiguration event. It's It's a transfiguration event. It's It's a transfiguration event. It's It's absolutely extraordinary. So, absolutely extraordinary. So, absolutely extraordinary. So, in 1844, I'm sure Trent will be familiar in 1844, I'm sure Trent will be familiar in 1844, I'm sure Trent will be familiar with this. In 1844, there was something with this. In 1844, there was something with this. In 1844, there was something of a succession crisis, right? Joseph of a succession crisis, right? Joseph of a succession crisis, right? Joseph Smith had died and and they didn't know Smith had died and and they didn't know Smith had died and and they didn't know who was going to be the next leader. So, who was going to be the next leader. So, who was going to be the next leader. So, they called a conference in August on they called a conference in August on they called a conference in August on the 8th of August, uh the 8th of August, uh the 8th of August, uh Brigham Young is one of the speakers. Brigham Young is one of the speakers. Brigham Young is one of the speakers. Now, we know from Brigham Young's later Now, we know from Brigham Young's later Now, we know from Brigham Young's later diaries that he says that there were diaries that he says that there were diaries that he says that there were thousands of people present. He says thousands of people present. He says thousands of people present. He says there were thousands people at this there were thousands people at this there were thousands people at this conference. So, let's say there were at conference. So, let's say there were at conference. So, let's say there were at least a few hundred. least a few hundred. least a few hundred. And And And amazingly, George Cannon writes in 1870, amazingly, George Cannon writes in 1870, amazingly, George Cannon writes in 1870, which is just 26 years later, which is just 26 years later, which is just 26 years later, that Brigham Young, while speaking, that Brigham Young, while speaking, that Brigham Young, while speaking, that, you know, buying for vying for the that, you know, buying for vying for the that, you know, buying for vying for the leadership, leadership, leadership, transfigures into the image and likeness transfigures into the image and likeness transfigures into the image and likeness and voice of Joseph Smith. and voice of Joseph Smith. and voice of Joseph Smith. >> And can also make the point that Mark, >> And can also make the point that Mark, >> And can also make the point that Mark, which is our earliest gospel, I think which is our earliest gospel, I think which is our earliest gospel, I think the earliest scholars give that for Mark the earliest scholars give that for Mark the earliest scholars give that for Mark is 40 AD.

is 40 AD. is 40 AD. And if you look at obviously the letters And if you look at obviously the letters And if you look at obviously the letters of Paul, they are earlier, but they're of Paul, they are earlier, but they're of Paul, they are earlier, but they're not 20 years. I mean, maybe some people not 20 years. I mean, maybe some people not 20 years. I mean, maybe some people say that, but I haven't heard that. Um say that, but I haven't heard that. Um say that, but I haven't heard that. Um but, you know, we'll we'll see what um but, you know, we'll we'll see what um but, you know, we'll we'll see what um Trent's response is to this, but it is a Trent's response is to this, but it is a Trent's response is to this, but it is a really good argument. And also the point really good argument. And also the point really good argument. And also the point he makes about the apostles dying for he makes about the apostles dying for he makes about the apostles dying for what they believed in, and it's a good what they believed in, and it's a good what they believed in, and it's a good point to make out that even Sean point to make out that even Sean point to make out that even Sean McDowell, the famous McDowell, the famous McDowell, the famous um Christian theologian, he says, I um Christian theologian, he says, I um Christian theologian, he says, I think he did his PhD on that, and he think he did his PhD on that, and he think he did his PhD on that, and he says that says that says that there's very little historical evidence there's very little historical evidence there's very little historical evidence to actually support the case for that to actually support the case for that to actually support the case for that happening. Now, that doesn't mean it happening. Now, that doesn't mean it happening. Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't didn't happen, but if we're doesn't didn't happen, but if we're doesn't didn't happen, but if we're going to use a historical apologetic going to use a historical apologetic going to use a historical apologetic argument, we've got to be honest with argument, we've got to be honest with argument, we've got to be honest with ourselves, and I think Alex highlights a ourselves, and I think Alex highlights a ourselves, and I think Alex highlights a real flaw in some of the arguments real flaw in some of the arguments real flaw in some of the arguments >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> um for the eyewitnesses and also just >> um for the eyewitnesses and also just >> um for the eyewitnesses and also just the credibility of the gospels, etc. the credibility of the gospels, etc. the credibility of the gospels, etc. But, let you know, I'm Look, I'm a bloke But, let you know, I'm Look, I'm a bloke But, let you know, I'm Look, I'm a bloke who hasn't gone to university. I'm not who hasn't gone to university. I'm not who hasn't gone to university. I'm not academic at all. So, you know, take this academic at all. So, you know, take this academic at all. So, you know, take this with a pinch of salt, but uh you know, with a pinch of salt, but uh you know, with a pinch of salt, but uh you know, I'll give my thoughts and I think it is I'll give my thoughts and I think it is I'll give my thoughts and I think it is pretty fascinating stuff, really. pretty fascinating stuff, really. pretty fascinating stuff, really. >> He says, "Who that was present on that >> He says, "Who that was present on that >> He says, "Who that was present on that occasion can ever forget the impression occasion can ever forget the impression occasion can ever forget the impression it made upon them? If Joseph had risen it made upon them? If Joseph had risen it made upon them? If Joseph had risen from the dead and spoken in their from the dead and spoken in their from the dead and spoken in their hearing, the effect could not have been hearing, the effect could not have been hearing, the effect could not have been more startling than it was to many more startling than it was to many more startling than it was to many present at that meeting."

present at that meeting." present at that meeting." So, we've got this report of probably So, we've got this report of probably So, we've got this report of probably hundreds of people seeing quite a hundreds of people seeing quite a hundreds of people seeing quite a miraculous event. Now, you could say, miraculous event. Now, you could say, miraculous event. Now, you could say, "Well, that report comes 26 years "Well, that report comes 26 years "Well, that report comes 26 years later." later." later." Okay, and how much later were Paul's Okay, and how much later were Paul's Okay, and how much later were Paul's reports? How much later were the gospel reports? How much later were the gospel reports? How much later were the gospel reports? Also note that in 1857, which reports? Also note that in 1857, which reports? Also note that in 1857, which is just 13 years after this event, after is just 13 years after this event, after is just 13 years after this event, after the transfiguration, you have the transfiguration, you have the transfiguration, you have uh uh uh Albert Carrington's experience recorded, Albert Carrington's experience recorded, Albert Carrington's experience recorded, where Carrington says that where Carrington says that where Carrington says that Well, well, Brigham Young recounts uh Well, well, Brigham Young recounts uh Well, well, Brigham Young recounts uh Albert Carrington's experience and says Albert Carrington's experience and says Albert Carrington's experience and says that Carrington says the people could that Carrington says the people could that Carrington says the people could not tell him from Joseph Smith and could not tell him from Joseph Smith and could not tell him from Joseph Smith and could not see anyone but Joseph speaking. What not see anyone but Joseph speaking. What not see anyone but Joseph speaking. What you'll notice is that there's still this you'll notice is that there's still this you'll notice is that there's still this evidence that there's some kind of evidence that there's some kind of evidence that there's some kind of transfigurative event, but much less transfigurative event, but much less transfigurative event, but much less detailed, but much more close to the detailed, but much more close to the detailed, but much more close to the source. source. source. In 1869, 25 years later, so somewhere in In 1869, 25 years later, so somewhere in In 1869, 25 years later, so somewhere in the middle, Orson Hyde, who was an early the middle, Orson Hyde, who was an early the middle, Orson Hyde, who was an early Mormon leader, uh confirmed the event Mormon leader, uh confirmed the event Mormon leader, uh confirmed the event saying it was the voice of Joseph and saying it was the voice of Joseph and saying it was the voice of Joseph and there were the features, gestures, and there were the features, gestures, and there were the features, gestures, and even the stature of Joseph. So, what we even the stature of Joseph. So, what we even the stature of Joseph. So, what we have are three independent in one case, have are three independent in one case, have are three independent in one case, eyewitness account, cuz Orson Hyde was eyewitness account, cuz Orson Hyde was eyewitness account, cuz Orson Hyde was actually speaking on the same day at the actually speaking on the same day at the actually speaking on the same day at the conference, eyewitness accounts of a conference, eyewitness accounts of a conference, eyewitness accounts of a transfiguration transfiguration transfiguration of Brigham Young in front of hundreds of of Brigham Young in front of hundreds of of Brigham Young in front of hundreds of witnesses, many of whom, in the words of witnesses, many of whom, in the words of witnesses, many of whom, in the words of George Cannon, he says, "Who Who was George Cannon, he says, "Who Who was George Cannon, he says, "Who Who was present on that occasion that could ever present on that occasion that could ever present on that occasion that could ever forget this?" In other words, if you're forget this?" In other words, if you're forget this?" In other words, if you're in any any doubt about this, you could in any any doubt about this, you could in any any doubt about this, you could go and ask the witnesses who were there.

go and ask the witnesses who were there. go and ask the witnesses who were there. Now, shelve that for a moment and think Now, shelve that for a moment and think Now, shelve that for a moment and think about how people talk about things like about how people talk about things like about how people talk about things like Trans already mentioned the appearances Trans already mentioned the appearances Trans already mentioned the appearances uh that Paul recounts in 1 Corinthians uh that Paul recounts in 1 Corinthians uh that Paul recounts in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul says that 15. Paul says that 15. Paul says that Jesus appeared to Peter, which is Jesus appeared to Peter, which is Jesus appeared to Peter, which is strange, because we don't get that strange, because we don't get that strange, because we don't get that narrated in the gospel stories, even narrated in the gospel stories, even narrated in the gospel stories, even though that seems to be the first and though that seems to be the first and though that seems to be the first and most important. Uh but I mean, most most important. Uh but I mean, most most important. Uh but I mean, most pressingly, Paul says that Jesus appears pressingly, Paul says that Jesus appears pressingly, Paul says that Jesus appears to 500 people, As above, 500 people, to 500 people, As above, 500 people, to 500 people, As above, 500 people, probably more than possibly above in a probably more than possibly above in a probably more than possibly above in a visionary experience. That's something visionary experience. That's something visionary experience. That's something else. else. else. Uh and people say, "Look, this is our Uh and people say, "Look, this is our Uh and people say, "Look, this is our only source." only source." only source." But, you know, Paul says some of these But, you know, Paul says some of these But, you know, Paul says some of these people are still alive. So, if you're in people are still alive. So, if you're in people are still alive. So, if you're in any doubt, you could just go and ask any doubt, you could just go and ask any doubt, you could just go and ask them. And I would say, "Well, why didn't them. And I would say, "Well, why didn't them. And I would say, "Well, why didn't people go and ask about the the Mormon people go and ask about the the Mormon people go and ask about the the Mormon transfiguration experiences?" Perhaps transfiguration experiences?" Perhaps transfiguration experiences?" Perhaps because if you read uh George Q. because if you read uh George Q. because if you read uh George Q. Cannon's account, it's not clear who Cannon's account, it's not clear who Cannon's account, it's not clear who these people are. I mean, people often these people are. I mean, people often these people are. I mean, people often say this. They say, you know, "Those 500 say this. They say, you know, "Those 500 say this. They say, you know, "Those 500 people, some of them are still alive, so people, some of them are still alive, so people, some of them are still alive, so you could have gone and checked." How? you could have gone and checked." How? you could have gone and checked." How? You're going to like walk to Jerusalem, You're going to like walk to Jerusalem, You're going to like walk to Jerusalem, which has tens of thousands of people at which has tens of thousands of people at which has tens of thousands of people at minimum in it, and just start asking minimum in it, and just start asking minimum in it, and just start asking around and see if anyone's seen the around and see if anyone's seen the around and see if anyone's seen the risen Christ? How many knows would it risen Christ? How many knows would it risen Christ? How many knows would it take before you said, "Okay, maybe not take before you said, "Okay, maybe not take before you said, "Okay, maybe not then." In other words, then." In other words, then." In other words, I I have I I have no idea why Paul says I I have I I have no idea why Paul says I I have I I have no idea why Paul says that Jesus appeared to 500 people.

that Jesus appeared to 500 people. that Jesus appeared to 500 people. We don't know that Paul was there. He We don't know that Paul was there. He We don't know that Paul was there. He probably wasn't. He says he's passing probably wasn't. He says he's passing probably wasn't. He says he's passing down something that was passed on to down something that was passed on to down something that was passed on to him, which says that it's an early him, which says that it's an early him, which says that it's an early creed. Mhm. But, we're not quite sure creed. Mhm. But, we're not quite sure creed. Mhm. But, we're not quite sure where that creed ends, cuz Paul inserts where that creed ends, cuz Paul inserts where that creed ends, cuz Paul inserts himself at the end of it. But, we don't himself at the end of it. But, we don't himself at the end of it. But, we don't know where he's heard it from. We don't know where he's heard it from. We don't know where he's heard it from. We don't know who these 500 people are. We don't know who these 500 people are. We don't know who these 500 people are. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know how many of them believed. We don't know how many of them believed. We don't know how many of them believed. We don't know if any of them were counted. We know if any of them were counted. We know if any of them were counted. We don't know anything about this kind of don't know anything about this kind of don't know anything about this kind of event. I'm not saying it didn't happen. event. I'm not saying it didn't happen. event. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that compared to I'm just saying that compared to I'm just saying that compared to something like the events of the something like the events of the something like the events of the transfiguration of of Brigham Young, transfiguration of of Brigham Young, transfiguration of of Brigham Young, from someone like outside of all of from someone like outside of all of from someone like outside of all of this, who has no vested interest here, this, who has no vested interest here, this, who has no vested interest here, really, really, really, I see them as equally plausible, perhaps I see them as equally plausible, perhaps I see them as equally plausible, perhaps more plausible in the case of Mormonism, more plausible in the case of Mormonism, more plausible in the case of Mormonism, because that happened in the 1800s, and because that happened in the 1800s, and because that happened in the 1800s, and we have at least one eyewitness account we have at least one eyewitness account we have at least one eyewitness account that says uh that he saw it directly. that says uh that he saw it directly. that says uh that he saw it directly. Mhm. We don't have anything like that Mhm. We don't have anything like that Mhm. We don't have anything like that for the Gospels. The only eyewitness for the Gospels. The only eyewitness for the Gospels. The only eyewitness account that we have for the account that we have for the account that we have for the resurrection of Jesus, the only one, is resurrection of Jesus, the only one, is resurrection of Jesus, the only one, is Paul, who did not see a bodily Paul, who did not see a bodily Paul, who did not see a bodily resurrected Christ, but saw a flash in resurrected Christ, but saw a flash in resurrected Christ, but saw a flash in the sky and heard a voice, which is not the sky and heard a voice, which is not the sky and heard a voice, which is not the same kind of thing. the same kind of thing. the same kind of thing. >> But, I think, Alex, you'd be sensitive. >> But, I think, Alex, you'd be sensitive. >> But, I think, Alex, you'd be sensitive. Many skeptics, when they look at Many skeptics, when they look at Many skeptics, when they look at Christians, are probably saying, let's Christians, are probably saying, let's Christians, are probably saying, let's make sure we're on the same page here.

make sure we're on the same page here. make sure we're on the same page here. Look, if you're going to follow Look, if you're going to follow Look, if you're going to follow evidence, that's all fine and dandy, but evidence, that's all fine and dandy, but evidence, that's all fine and dandy, but I want to see that you are following it I want to see that you are following it I want to see that you are following it consistently. Yes. If you're car If consistently. Yes. If you're car If consistently. Yes. If you're car If you're carving out special exceptions you're carving out special exceptions you're carving out special exceptions for what you believe, and then you're for what you believe, and then you're for what you believe, and then you're dismissive of all the other stuff, well, dismissive of all the other stuff, well, dismissive of all the other stuff, well, now you see where where I'm coming from. now you see where where I'm coming from. now you see where where I'm coming from. So, I think that's where that's the So, I think that's where that's the So, I think that's where that's the challenge in defend I think that's at challenge in defend I think that's at challenge in defend I think that's at least I'm seeing that more now. least I'm seeing that more now. least I'm seeing that more now. The challenge is, all right, let's The challenge is, all right, let's The challenge is, all right, let's follow your standard your standards of follow your standard your standards of follow your standard your standards of evidence that will only show Jesus' evidence that will only show Jesus' evidence that will only show Jesus' resurrection and Christian miracles, but resurrection and Christian miracles, but resurrection and Christian miracles, but not necessarily non-Christian things. not necessarily non-Christian things. not necessarily non-Christian things. Although, I will So, you Is that a fair Although, I will So, you Is that a fair Although, I will So, you Is that a fair summary of that? summary of that? summary of that? >> for sure. >> for sure. >> for sure. >> Likewise, when it comes to non-Christian >> Likewise, when it comes to non-Christian >> Likewise, when it comes to non-Christian religions, I think that God could religions, I think that God could religions, I think that God could perform miracles or signs or wonders perform miracles or signs or wonders perform miracles or signs or wonders among non-Christians, and that could among non-Christians, and that could among non-Christians, and that could still be harmonious with Christian still be harmonious with Christian still be harmonious with Christian theology. Uh because God because God theology. Uh because God because God theology. Uh because God because God loves everybody. So, if a uh if you loves everybody. So, if a uh if you loves everybody. So, if a uh if you know, a Buddhist prays in the middle of know, a Buddhist prays in the middle of know, a Buddhist prays in the middle of a flood to be saved, God might a flood to be saved, God might a flood to be saved, God might miraculously save her because he loves miraculously save her because he loves miraculously save her because he loves that person. He loves her without that person. He loves her without that person. He loves her without necessarily endorsing the truth of necessarily endorsing the truth of necessarily endorsing the truth of Buddhism. The problem I think that you Buddhism. The problem I think that you Buddhism. The problem I think that you might raise is you might say, "Yes, might raise is you might say, "Yes, might raise is you might say, "Yes, that's all fine and dandy, all fine and that's all fine and dandy, all fine and that's all fine and dandy, all fine and good. Uh but what about these things good. Uh but what about these things good. Uh but what about these things that appear to be miracles that appear to be miracles that appear to be miracles >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh right, that appear to endorse a >> Uh right, that appear to endorse a >> Uh right, that appear to endorse a competing theology. competing theology. competing theology. Um so, when I would look at miracle Um so, when I would look at miracle Um so, when I would look at miracle claims for a competing theology, uh claims for a competing theology, uh claims for a competing theology, uh there's two options here. One, I could there's two options here. One, I could there's two options here. One, I could say that there's a natural explanation say that there's a natural explanation say that there's a natural explanation that we're overlooking. Uh two, there that we're overlooking. Uh two, there that we're overlooking. Uh two, there could be a a supernatural there there could be a a supernatural there there could be a a supernatural there there could be a supernatural malevolent could be a supernatural malevolent could be a supernatural malevolent explanation. Uh you know, that that's explanation. Uh you know, that that's explanation. Uh you know, that that's demonically inspired. Now, one might say demonically inspired. Now, one might say demonically inspired. Now, one might say that's kind of Are you going to say that's kind of Are you going to say that's kind of Are you going to say everything that's not you is a demon? everything that's not you is a demon? everything that's not you is a demon? That's kind of a cop-out. No, I think That's kind of a cop-out. No, I think That's kind of a cop-out. No, I think that we can apply tests to see is the that we can apply tests to see is the that we can apply tests to see is the message driving people away from, you message driving people away from, you message driving people away from, you know, true theology about Jesus. know, true theology about Jesus. know, true theology about Jesus. >> I think this is such a good point cuz >> I think this is such a good point cuz >> I think this is such a good point cuz also famously Jesus said, you know, also famously Jesus said, you know, also famously Jesus said, you know, "Many will come in my name, even "Many will come in my name, even "Many will come in my name, even performing incredible wonders." performing incredible wonders." performing incredible wonders." And, you know, he warns about this. You And, you know, he warns about this. You And, you know, he warns about this. You know, Jesus says this. Now, if you're know, Jesus says this. Now, if you're know, Jesus says this. Now, if you're not a Christian, you could say, "Well, I not a Christian, you could say, "Well, I not a Christian, you could say, "Well, I don't buy that." Kind of that don't buy that." Kind of that don't buy that." Kind of that methodology for validating something methodology for validating something methodology for validating something doesn't work for me at all. Like the doesn't work for me at all. Like the doesn't work for me at all. Like the notion that a book 2,000 years ago notion that a book 2,000 years ago notion that a book 2,000 years ago saying something has weight to the saying something has weight to the saying something has weight to the credibility of it. Now, people could say credibility of it. Now, people could say credibility of it. Now, people could say that, which I think is a fair point, but that, which I think is a fair point, but that, which I think is a fair point, but as a Christian, I actually really like as a Christian, I actually really like as a Christian, I actually really like this argument because I feel like and this argument because I feel like and this argument because I feel like and I'm not a Catholic, but I love when I'm not a Catholic, but I love when I'm not a Catholic, but I love when people actually talk about the people actually talk about the people actually talk about the supernatural cuz it's such a less like supernatural cuz it's such a less like supernatural cuz it's such a less like taboo topic even bringing that into the taboo topic even bringing that into the taboo topic even bringing that into the kind of apologetic realm. But to really kind of apologetic realm. But to really kind of apologetic realm. But to really believe that Jesus of Nazareth was who believe that Jesus of Nazareth was who believe that Jesus of Nazareth was who he says he was, you have to encompass he says he was, you have to encompass he says he was, you have to encompass the complete supernatural realm. And the complete supernatural realm. And the complete supernatural realm. And it's not beyond the realm that the devil

it's not beyond the realm that the devil it's not beyond the realm that the devil or whatever the devil is, whatever Satan or whatever the devil is, whatever Satan or whatever the devil is, whatever Satan is, whatever that means. I don't even is, whatever that means. I don't even is, whatever that means. I don't even know what that really means. I don't know what that really means. I don't know what that really means. I don't even know really what evil is in a way. even know really what evil is in a way. even know really what evil is in a way. I I mean, I do and I don't, you know. I I mean, I do and I don't, you know. I I mean, I do and I don't, you know. Was like is the devil a fallen angel? I Was like is the devil a fallen angel? I Was like is the devil a fallen angel? I I I like I'm I'm still kind of grappling I I like I'm I'm still kind of grappling I I like I'm I'm still kind of grappling with what that means. Is it with what that means. Is it with what that means. Is it metaphorical? Is it a kind of spirit? Is metaphorical? Is it a kind of spirit? Is metaphorical? Is it a kind of spirit? Is it a person? Is it an angel? Like what it a person? Is it an angel? Like what it a person? Is it an angel? Like what is it? I I to be honest, I don't is it? I I to be honest, I don't is it? I I to be honest, I don't actually quite know. And I think this is actually quite know. And I think this is actually quite know. And I think this is fascinating to kind of use this argument fascinating to kind of use this argument fascinating to kind of use this argument to add credence to what he's saying. And to add credence to what he's saying. And to add credence to what he's saying. And yeah, I just want to make that point, yeah, I just want to make that point, yeah, I just want to make that point, but yeah, we'll see what but yeah, we'll see what but yeah, we'll see what >> Mormonism, I'm kind of on the fence >> Mormonism, I'm kind of on the fence >> Mormonism, I'm kind of on the fence about this one, Alex. I It could be I about this one, Alex. I It could be I about this one, Alex. I It could be I think there are very compelling natural think there are very compelling natural think there are very compelling natural explanations for many of the things you explanations for many of the things you explanations for many of the things you brought up. And I think some of them it brought up. And I think some of them it brought up. And I think some of them it could there could be um demonic could there could be um demonic could there could be um demonic explanations. It could be both. Maybe it explanations. It could be both. Maybe it explanations. It could be both. Maybe it started as a hoax and the devil kind of started as a hoax and the devil kind of started as a hoax and the devil kind of runs with it like in the the case you runs with it like in the the case you runs with it like in the the case you gave. The case you gave though with the gave. The case you gave though with the gave. The case you gave though with the transfiguration, transfiguration, transfiguration, I mean, it sounds a lot like people I mean, it sounds a lot like people I mean, it sounds a lot like people could be, you know, really, really could be, you know, really, really could be, you know, really, really enthralled with a religious speaker at enthralled with a religious speaker at enthralled with a religious speaker at an event. They're at essentially a a an event. They're at essentially a a an event. They're at essentially a a rally type atmosphere where you're rally type atmosphere where you're rally type atmosphere where you're already religiously primed for a already religiously primed for a already religiously primed for a speaker.

speaker. speaker. And they're talking about how, "Oh, you And they're talking about how, "Oh, you And they're talking about how, "Oh, you sound just like him. Uh you know, it's sound just like him. Uh you know, it's sound just like him. Uh you know, it's like I have Sean McDowell here and he like I have Sean McDowell here and he like I have Sean McDowell here and he maybe he could give a a a talk at a at a maybe he could give a a a talk at a at a maybe he could give a a a talk at a at a evangelical church and they're like, 'My evangelical church and they're like, 'My evangelical church and they're like, 'My goodness, Sean. I saw your dad, Josh, on goodness, Sean. I saw your dad, Josh, on goodness, Sean. I saw your dad, Josh, on stage when you were talking. It was just stage when you were talking. It was just stage when you were talking. It was just like him. And it's like, well, he's a like him. And it's like, well, he's a like him. And it's like, well, he's a lot like Josh. That's probably true. And lot like Josh. That's probably true. And lot like Josh. That's probably true. And then, you know, it kind of that that's then, you know, it kind of that that's then, you know, it kind of that that's that sounds a little bit different to me that sounds a little bit different to me that sounds a little bit different to me than saying, "Yeah, my rabbi that was than saying, "Yeah, my rabbi that was than saying, "Yeah, my rabbi that was crucified 3 days ago and put in a tomb, crucified 3 days ago and put in a tomb, crucified 3 days ago and put in a tomb, we saw him. He He was eating. He we saw him. He He was eating. He we saw him. He He was eating. He appeared to different groups of people." appeared to different groups of people." appeared to different groups of people." So, I I So, that example, I don't think So, I I So, that example, I don't think So, I I So, that example, I don't think is as compelling to me. Uh the other is as compelling to me. Uh the other is as compelling to me. Uh the other examples, I think there's really examples, I think there's really examples, I think there's really >> this is an interesting point. However, I >> this is an interesting point. However, I >> this is an interesting point. However, I think it what it does, it actually think it what it does, it actually think it what it does, it actually diminishes current apparitions come diminishes current apparitions come diminishes current apparitions come visions, people who are in desperate visions, people who are in desperate visions, people who are in desperate situations have visions of Jesus, who situations have visions of Jesus, who situations have visions of Jesus, who say they encounter Jesus. You know, say they encounter Jesus. You know, say they encounter Jesus. You know, there's some incredible stories. By that there's some incredible stories. By that there's some incredible stories. By that logic, I think that does really go logic, I think that does really go logic, I think that does really go against that in the sense of visions, against that in the sense of visions, against that in the sense of visions, because if someone is in a desperate because if someone is in a desperate because if someone is in a desperate situation, now obviously there are times situation, now obviously there are times situation, now obviously there are times where someone has no predisposition to where someone has no predisposition to where someone has no predisposition to Jesus, they don't know who he is, and Jesus, they don't know who he is, and Jesus, they don't know who he is, and somehow he appears, somehow they believe somehow he appears, somehow they believe somehow he appears, somehow they believe it's Jesus. You know, there's endless it's Jesus. You know, there's endless it's Jesus. You know, there's endless examples. I'm not denying that remotely.

examples. I'm not denying that remotely. examples. I'm not denying that remotely. However, there are also loads of However, there are also loads of However, there are also loads of examples that people claim are true, examples that people claim are true, examples that people claim are true, where people in desperate situations and where people in desperate situations and where people in desperate situations and Jesus appears or and you know, we Jesus appears or and you know, we Jesus appears or and you know, we connote Jesus with hope, with love, with connote Jesus with hope, with love, with connote Jesus with hope, with love, with So, So, So, it's a good point he makes here. it's a good point he makes here. it's a good point he makes here. However, I also think it it degrades However, I also think it it degrades However, I also think it it degrades many of the Christian apparitions that many of the Christian apparitions that many of the Christian apparitions that currently happen now. So, it's But, he's currently happen now. So, it's But, he's currently happen now. So, it's But, he's making a multi-faceted point. But, yeah, making a multi-faceted point. But, yeah, making a multi-faceted point. But, yeah, we'll see what else he says. we'll see what else he says. we'll see what else he says. >> way more disanalogous almost between the >> way more disanalogous almost between the >> way more disanalogous almost between the resurrection claim resurrection claim resurrection claim and Mormonism. I could briefly run and Mormonism. I could briefly run and Mormonism. I could briefly run through them. We can unpack it. Like I through them. We can unpack it. Like I through them. We can unpack it. Like I said, I don't want to go too long, but said, I don't want to go too long, but said, I don't want to go too long, but you threw a lot out there. you threw a lot out there. you threw a lot out there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um So, a few elements there. One, the >> Um So, a few elements there. One, the >> Um So, a few elements there. One, the people who saw the golden plates, that people who saw the golden plates, that people who saw the golden plates, that doesn't do much for me. They could have doesn't do much for me. They could have doesn't do much for me. They could have been natural artifacts. In 1843, there been natural artifacts. In 1843, there been natural artifacts. In 1843, there were people who created a hoax set of were people who created a hoax set of were people who created a hoax set of plates called the Kinderhook plates that plates called the Kinderhook plates that plates called the Kinderhook plates that Joseph went to went to engage in read. Joseph went to went to engage in read. Joseph went to went to engage in read. So, those could have been natural So, those could have been natural So, those could have been natural artifacts. They could have been hoaxes. artifacts. They could have been hoaxes. artifacts. They could have been hoaxes. I'm not as impressed by that. The three I'm not as impressed by that. The three I'm not as impressed by that. The three witnesses who saw the angel, when when witnesses who saw the angel, when when witnesses who saw the angel, when when you look through, there's a lot of you look through, there's a lot of you look through, there's a lot of discrepancies. It seems like they had to discrepancies. It seems like they had to discrepancies. It seems like they had to go and Joseph led them out there. go and Joseph led them out there. go and Joseph led them out there. Remember, he's already trying to Remember, he's already trying to Remember, he's already trying to convince them of this.

convince them of this. convince them of this. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh whereas with the apostles, all of >> Uh whereas with the apostles, all of >> Uh whereas with the apostles, all of them are starting with a blank slate. them are starting with a blank slate. them are starting with a blank slate. Jesus is dead, what do we do? Joseph Jesus is dead, what do we do? Joseph Jesus is dead, what do we do? Joseph >> And also kind of make the point Joseph >> And also kind of make the point Joseph >> And also kind of make the point Joseph Smith's intentions and who he was was Smith's intentions and who he was was Smith's intentions and who he was was very different from Jesus. Like even if very different from Jesus. Like even if very different from Jesus. Like even if you look at books that aren't in the you look at books that aren't in the you look at books that aren't in the canon, right? Like the Gospel of Thomas canon, right? Like the Gospel of Thomas canon, right? Like the Gospel of Thomas where Jesus does have a wife and kid or where Jesus does have a wife and kid or where Jesus does have a wife and kid or maybe some external sources speak about maybe some external sources speak about maybe some external sources speak about him drinking a lot. Like there's nothing him drinking a lot. Like there's nothing him drinking a lot. Like there's nothing that screams kind of dreadful man. I that screams kind of dreadful man. I that screams kind of dreadful man. I mean, this is a man whose teachers were mean, this is a man whose teachers were mean, this is a man whose teachers were so radical, he would you know, he so radical, he would you know, he so radical, he would you know, he pierced people's hearts in the way he pierced people's hearts in the way he pierced people's hearts in the way he spoke. He He was a battering ram to the spoke. He He was a battering ram to the spoke. He He was a battering ram to the current normalities, but not in a way of current normalities, but not in a way of current normalities, but not in a way of his own self power and self gain. You his own self power and self gain. You his own self power and self gain. You know, he did die. He was crucified. We know, he did die. He was crucified. We know, he did die. He was crucified. We do agree that historically. I think it's do agree that historically. I think it's do agree that historically. I think it's even just the basic point of who Joseph even just the basic point of who Joseph even just the basic point of who Joseph Smith was v who Jesus was, I think Smith was v who Jesus was, I think Smith was v who Jesus was, I think matters a lot because it it shows also matters a lot because it it shows also matters a lot because it it shows also the motivations behind getting behind the motivations behind getting behind the motivations behind getting behind that message. Like Joseph Smith that message. Like Joseph Smith that message. Like Joseph Smith obviously had obviously had obviously had certain views. He wanted to do certain certain views. He wanted to do certain certain views. He wanted to do certain things and from that you could say he things and from that you could say he things and from that you could say he manipulated and duped people into manipulated and duped people into manipulated and duped people into things. But Jesus on the other hand, he things. But Jesus on the other hand, he things. But Jesus on the other hand, he really pronounced such a freedom of the really pronounced such a freedom of the really pronounced such a freedom of the way he spread the message. Like that's way he spread the message. Like that's way he spread the message. Like that's one of the beauties of Christianity is one of the beauties of Christianity is one of the beauties of Christianity is the freedom it comes with right from the the freedom it comes with right from the the freedom it comes with right from the beginning, you know, when when beginning, you know, when when beginning, you know, when when Paul's, you know, preaching in Ephesus Paul's, you know, preaching in Ephesus Paul's, you know, preaching in Ephesus when the disciples are going like all of when the disciples are going like all of when the disciples are going like all of that has so much weight. Now, you could that has so much weight. Now, you could that has so much weight. Now, you could say well Mormonism had similar things, say well Mormonism had similar things, say well Mormonism had similar things, but we know that there were loads of but we know that there were loads of but we know that there were loads of issues. I mean, I guess you could say issues. I mean, I guess you could say issues. I mean, I guess you could say the Crusades etc. But that was way the Crusades etc. But that was way the Crusades etc. But that was way later, but anyway, we'll see what Alex

later, but anyway, we'll see what Alex later, but anyway, we'll see what Alex O'Connor has to say in response to O'Connor has to say in response to O'Connor has to say in response to Trent. Trent. Trent. >> of his trying to to convince these two >> of his trying to to convince these two >> of his trying to to convince these two people. One of them, Martin Harris, who people. One of them, Martin Harris, who people. One of them, Martin Harris, who is financially backing this endeavor and is financially backing this endeavor and is financially backing this endeavor and so so so has some skin in the game on this has some skin in the game on this has some skin in the game on this of this and so they're praying and of this and so they're praying and of this and so they're praying and they're praying a lot in order to see they're praying a lot in order to see they're praying a lot in order to see something. I think that's very something. I think that's very something. I think that's very different. When it comes to persecution, different. When it comes to persecution, different. When it comes to persecution, I'll leave on this point. I'll leave on this point. I'll leave on this point. I agree with you, people are willing to I agree with you, people are willing to I agree with you, people are willing to to take risks for rewards. to take risks for rewards. to take risks for rewards. So, Joseph Smith took a lot of risks. So, Joseph Smith took a lot of risks. So, Joseph Smith took a lot of risks. And I think though from his perspective, And I think though from his perspective, And I think though from his perspective, there were rewards he was seeking. He there were rewards he was seeking. He there were rewards he was seeking. He became a political leader in Nauvoo. He became a political leader in Nauvoo. He became a political leader in Nauvoo. He planned to run for president. He planned to run for president. He planned to run for president. He acquired multiple brides, some of them acquired multiple brides, some of them acquired multiple brides, some of them being underage, as young as 14. So, we being underage, as young as 14. So, we being underage, as young as 14. So, we have a We had a television show in the have a We had a television show in the have a We had a television show in the US 20 years ago called To Catch a US 20 years ago called To Catch a US 20 years ago called To Catch a Predator. Predator. Predator. And um And um And um And I saw in that show men were willing And I saw in that show men were willing And I saw in that show men were willing to take many, many, many risks for to take many, many, many risks for to take many, many, many risks for underage girls. So, I'm not as I'm not underage girls. So, I'm not as I'm not underage girls. So, I'm not as I'm not as surprised that he's going And then as surprised that he's going And then as surprised that he's going And then when when Smith was arrested and put in when when Smith was arrested and put in when when Smith was arrested and put in the Carthage City Jail, the Carthage City Jail, the Carthage City Jail, >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> he was not like a martyr led to the led >> he was not like a martyr led to the led >> he was not like a martyr led to the led to the slaughter. He He had a handgun to the slaughter. He He had a handgun to the slaughter. He He had a handgun smuggled into the jail. And when when a smuggled into the jail. And when when a smuggled into the jail. And when when a when when a gunfight broke out, he shot when when a gunfight broke out, he shot when when a gunfight broke out, he shot back. That's not quite what Jesus and back. That's not quite what Jesus and back. That's not quite what Jesus and the apostles did. So, I grant you the apostles did. So, I grant you the apostles did. So, I grant you there's going to be similarities in any there's going to be similarities in any there's going to be similarities in any religious claims. religious claims. religious claims. But for me, I think it's very But for me, I think it's very But for me, I think it's very disanalogous. And also for me, when it disanalogous. And also for me, when it disanalogous. And also for me, when it comes to Mormonism versus Christianity, comes to Mormonism versus Christianity, comes to Mormonism versus Christianity, um I would say with Christianity, we um I would say with Christianity, we um I would say with Christianity, we don't have really any evidence that don't have really any evidence that don't have really any evidence that says, "Oh, we've got counterbalancing says, "Oh, we've got counterbalancing says, "Oh, we've got counterbalancing evidence that this contradicts what we evidence that this contradicts what we evidence that this contradicts what we know about the world." Most of our know about the world." Most of our know about the world." Most of our evidence is just, "Well, can we believe evidence is just, "Well, can we believe evidence is just, "Well, can we believe what they said about Jesus?" We're not what they said about Jesus?" We're not what they said about Jesus?" We're not making That's why like I'm not a young making That's why like I'm not a young making That's why like I'm not a young earth creationist, for example. earth creationist, for example. earth creationist, for example. Cuz I think it contradicts what we know Cuz I think it contradicts what we know Cuz I think it contradicts what we know about the world from science. about the world from science. about the world from science. But the problem is I think Mormonism But the problem is I think Mormonism But the problem is I think Mormonism makes those kind of claims about makes those kind of claims about makes those kind of claims about ancient Israelites being the procreators ancient Israelites being the procreators ancient Israelites being the procreators of Native Americans and a lot of other of Native Americans and a lot of other of Native Americans and a lot of other things that contradict what we know things that contradict what we know things that contradict what we know about the world. about the world. about the world. >> You could say that in the Bible speaks >> You could say that in the Bible speaks >> You could say that in the Bible speaks about the edge of the earth. You could about the edge of the earth. You could about the edge of the earth. You could say that. I mean, the ends of the earth, say that. I mean, the ends of the earth, say that. I mean, the ends of the earth, obviously the world doesn't have an end obviously the world doesn't have an end obviously the world doesn't have an end cuz it's a globe. You know, could you cuz it's a globe. You know, could you cuz it's a globe. You know, could you The flat earthers watching is, "No, no, The flat earthers watching is, "No, no, The flat earthers watching is, "No, no, no."

no." no." Um I'd I'm unsubscribing. He's part of Um I'd I'm unsubscribing. He's part of Um I'd I'm unsubscribing. He's part of the agenda. Now, um so, it's interesting the agenda. Now, um so, it's interesting the agenda. Now, um so, it's interesting he says that. I mean, obviously there's he says that. I mean, obviously there's he says that. I mean, obviously there's different views of that and there's also different views of that and there's also different views of that and there's also like people like so much of the bedrock like people like so much of the bedrock like people like so much of the bedrock of scientific discovery obviously of scientific discovery obviously of scientific discovery obviously Christians, Galileo, you know, people, Christians, Galileo, you know, people, Christians, Galileo, you know, people, you know, it was a Catholic priest who you know, it was a Catholic priest who you know, it was a Catholic priest who came up with a big bang theory. Like came up with a big bang theory. Like came up with a big bang theory. Like that Yeah, there's I just interesting that Yeah, there's I just interesting that Yeah, there's I just interesting cuz I'm sure there's some great cuz I'm sure there's some great cuz I'm sure there's some great responses from Mormons on that. Who responses from Mormons on that. Who responses from Mormons on that. Who knows? I mean, I need to knows? I mean, I need to knows? I mean, I need to know about Mormonism more to to be know about Mormonism more to to be know about Mormonism more to to be [laughter] honest. [laughter] honest. [laughter] honest. >> That sets the probability of it being >> That sets the probability of it being >> That sets the probability of it being true much lower than we have true much lower than we have true much lower than we have Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. >> Firstly, he said that you got to >> Firstly, he said that you got to >> Firstly, he said that you got to remember that that remember that that remember that that the people that Joseph took out to see the people that Joseph took out to see the people that Joseph took out to see the plates were kind of, you know, they the plates were kind of, you know, they the plates were kind of, you know, they were like expectations. They were sort were like expectations. They were sort were like expectations. They were sort of trying to trying to make them believe of trying to trying to make them believe of trying to trying to make them believe it. Trump believes that Jesus predicted it. Trump believes that Jesus predicted it. Trump believes that Jesus predicted his own resurrection. And maybe the his own resurrection. And maybe the his own resurrection. And maybe the disciples didn't fully understand what disciples didn't fully understand what disciples didn't fully understand what was happening there. But the idea that was happening there. But the idea that was happening there. But the idea that this sort of comes out of the blue, I this sort of comes out of the blue, I this sort of comes out of the blue, I think is is not entirely true. He also think is is not entirely true. He also think is is not entirely true. He also said that Martin Harris, one of the one said that Martin Harris, one of the one said that Martin Harris, one of the one of the first witnesses to the angel and of the first witnesses to the angel and of the first witnesses to the angel and the golden plates, the golden plates, the golden plates, was financially backing the project and was financially backing the project and was financially backing the project and so would have a vested interest. Well, so would have a vested interest. Well, so would have a vested interest. Well, who was financially backing the ministry who was financially backing the ministry who was financially backing the ministry of Jesus?

of Jesus? of Jesus? We're told in the gospels it was the We're told in the gospels it was the We're told in the gospels it was the women. It was Mary Magdalene, who is the women. It was Mary Magdalene, who is the women. It was Mary Magdalene, who is the first woman to see the risen Jesus first woman to see the risen Jesus first woman to see the risen Jesus according to early summit narratives. So according to early summit narratives. So according to early summit narratives. So again, a direct again, a direct again, a direct narrative link there, I think. narrative link there, I think. narrative link there, I think. >> Justin But I think one of the issues is >> Justin But I think one of the issues is >> Justin But I think one of the issues is that we don't we know so little about that we don't we know so little about that we don't we know so little about the female disciples. I mean, there's the female disciples. I mean, there's the female disciples. I mean, there's obviously been a lot of scholarship in obviously been a lot of scholarship in obviously been a lot of scholarship in recent time on that. There's an amazing recent time on that. There's an amazing recent time on that. There's an amazing book actually I've been meaning to read book actually I've been meaning to read book actually I've been meaning to read all about that. And then I think Joanna all about that. And then I think Joanna all about that. And then I think Joanna as well was funding it. And the fact as well was funding it. And the fact as well was funding it. And the fact that the the woman that even described that the the woman that even described that the the woman that even described in the Bible is bonkers in the New in the Bible is bonkers in the New in the Bible is bonkers in the New Testament like early on like even in Testament like early on like even in Testament like early on like even in Paul's letters. The fact that he even Paul's letters. The fact that he even Paul's letters. The fact that he even included that I think is startling cuz included that I think is startling cuz included that I think is startling cuz it means that there was so much more it means that there was so much more it means that there was so much more going on. And also people argue there going on. And also people argue there going on. And also people argue there were, you know, early female bishops and were, you know, early female bishops and were, you know, early female bishops and then it kind of regressed. But I then it kind of regressed. But I then it kind of regressed. But I wouldn't say in this point Alex makes wouldn't say in this point Alex makes wouldn't say in this point Alex makes here it's nearly as strong as the pain here it's nearly as strong as the pain here it's nearly as strong as the pain part, but part, but part, but you know, I I guess I would need to look you know, I I guess I would need to look you know, I I guess I would need to look into the into the into the people people people in the Mormon Mormon church more about in the Mormon Mormon church more about in the Mormon Mormon church more about that, yeah. that, yeah. that, yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um Also, the point about Joseph's death. Uh Also, the point about Joseph's death. Uh Also, the point about Joseph's death. Uh yeah, like quite the shootout. I don't yeah, like quite the shootout. I don't yeah, like quite the shootout. I don't think that martyrs need not put up a think that martyrs need not put up a think that martyrs need not put up a fight. I mean, it's not like Joseph was fight. I mean, it's not like Joseph was fight. I mean, it's not like Joseph was being killed, you know, for the sake being killed, you know, for the sake being killed, you know, for the sake It's not like he was being asked to It's not like he was being asked to It's not like he was being asked to recant or something and he refused and recant or something and he refused and recant or something and he refused and took death for that reason. He was just took death for that reason. He was just took death for that reason. He was just Of course, he had a message to spread.

Of course, he had a message to spread. Of course, he had a message to spread. He was trying to annex Texas to make it He was trying to annex Texas to make it He was trying to annex Texas to make it a sort of He was running for president a sort of He was running for president a sort of He was running for president to annex Texas and make it into a Mormon to annex Texas and make it into a Mormon to annex Texas and make it into a Mormon paradise. You know, he's got things to paradise. You know, he's got things to paradise. You know, he's got things to do. So, yeah, he shot back. And I've do. So, yeah, he shot back. And I've do. So, yeah, he shot back. And I've heard Trent say before on the point of heard Trent say before on the point of heard Trent say before on the point of the martyrdom of the apostles, to bring the martyrdom of the apostles, to bring the martyrdom of the apostles, to bring it back to the New Testament, we're it back to the New Testament, we're it back to the New Testament, we're we're told sometimes that all of these we're told sometimes that all of these we're told sometimes that all of these disciples died for what they believed disciples died for what they believed disciples died for what they believed in. Of course, we have absolutely no in. Of course, we have absolutely no in. Of course, we have absolutely no evidence that any of them died for their evidence that any of them died for their evidence that any of them died for their faith except for James who James the faith except for James who James the faith except for James who James the brother of John that is that's mentioned brother of John that is that's mentioned brother of John that is that's mentioned in in Acts as being beheaded by Herod, in in Acts as being beheaded by Herod, in in Acts as being beheaded by Herod, although we're not told why. And Trent although we're not told why. And Trent although we're not told why. And Trent has said in the past that, "Okay, we has said in the past that, "Okay, we has said in the past that, "Okay, we don't know that they died for their don't know that they died for their don't know that they died for their belief as historically at least. Uh but belief as historically at least. Uh but belief as historically at least. Uh but we do know as a video that you made, we do know as a video that you made, we do know as a video that you made, Trent, where you said, 'Well, because of Trent, where you said, 'Well, because of Trent, where you said, 'Well, because of the death of their of their leader, the death of their of their leader, the death of their of their leader, because Jesus was put to death, you know because Jesus was put to death, you know because Jesus was put to death, you know that they must have been living in fear that they must have been living in fear that they must have been living in fear that a similar kind of thing could that a similar kind of thing could that a similar kind of thing could happen to them.' Now, whatever you think happen to them.' Now, whatever you think happen to them.' Now, whatever you think about the death of Joseph Smith, you about the death of Joseph Smith, you about the death of Joseph Smith, you could say the same thing about him. could say the same thing about him. could say the same thing about him. Don't you think his followers might also Don't you think his followers might also Don't you think his followers might also be a little bit concerned that they're be a little bit concerned that they're be a little bit concerned that they're going to suffer under the same kind of going to suffer under the same kind of going to suffer under the same kind of violence, especially given how violence, especially given how violence, especially given how persecuted they were being persecuted they were being persecuted they were being uh uh uh by the US government by the US government by the US government and state governments. And yet, the and state governments. And yet, the and state governments. And yet, the expansion rate of the early Mormon expansion rate of the early Mormon expansion rate of the early Mormon church is the same as the expansion rate church is the same as the expansion rate church is the same as the expansion rate of the early Christian community, as of the early Christian community, as of the early Christian community, as Rodney Stark famously pointed out.

Rodney Stark famously pointed out. Rodney Stark famously pointed out. >> And I think this when when he says the >> And I think this when when he says the >> And I think this when when he says the early church, I'm pretty sure almost early church, I'm pretty sure almost early church, I'm pretty sure almost 100% sure he he meant before Constantine 100% sure he he meant before Constantine 100% sure he he meant before Constantine cuz obviously Constantine made it the cuz obviously Constantine made it the cuz obviously Constantine made it the religion and then it expanded and many religion and then it expanded and many religion and then it expanded and many people argue, "Well, that's why we know people argue, "Well, that's why we know people argue, "Well, that's why we know it today." And people can have a it today." And people can have a it today." And people can have a revisionist type of history where they revisionist type of history where they revisionist type of history where they say, "Well, if that didn't happen, this say, "Well, if that didn't happen, this say, "Well, if that didn't happen, this would have happened." But it did happen would have happened." But it did happen would have happened." But it did happen and the fact that that did happen, I and the fact that that did happen, I and the fact that that did happen, I think does have weight to it. The fact think does have weight to it. The fact think does have weight to it. The fact that a man from Nazareth, you know, that a man from Nazareth, you know, that a man from Nazareth, you know, around 400 people, as historians around 400 people, as historians around 400 people, as historians famously say, famously say, famously say, managed to not write anything and that managed to not write anything and that managed to not write anything and that Well, people Some people scholars do say Well, people Some people scholars do say Well, people Some people scholars do say Jesus did write something and I going to Jesus did write something and I going to Jesus did write something and I going to look into that but the fact that that look into that but the fact that that look into that but the fact that that man somehow is still talked about today man somehow is still talked about today man somehow is still talked about today and became this religion I think is and became this religion I think is and became this religion I think is incredible. Now you could say well this incredible. Now you could say well this incredible. Now you could say well this happened because of this because there happened because of this because there happened because of this because there was a hunger because was a hunger because was a hunger because um you know that the way that it it came um you know that the way that it it came um you know that the way that it it came about preaching to Gentiles instead of about preaching to Gentiles instead of about preaching to Gentiles instead of just Jews and the way it you know looked just Jews and the way it you know looked just Jews and the way it you know looked after the poor and it it had this appeal after the poor and it it had this appeal after the poor and it it had this appeal to the poor and the downtrodden. You can to the poor and the downtrodden. You can to the poor and the downtrodden. You can make that argument but I think the fact make that argument but I think the fact make that argument but I think the fact that it happened is incredible. Now you that it happened is incredible. Now you that it happened is incredible. Now you can you can make all these arguments but can you can make all these arguments but can you can make all these arguments but the fact that we are talking about today the fact that we are talking about today the fact that we are talking about today I think is an incredible feat and work.

I think is an incredible feat and work. I think is an incredible feat and work. I really really do. I think it's I really really do. I think it's I really really do. I think it's phenomenal that we are for me that's phenomenal that we are for me that's phenomenal that we are for me that's what that I think is the the best what that I think is the the best what that I think is the the best argument for Jesus being who he says he argument for Jesus being who he says he argument for Jesus being who he says he was and Christianity to be true. I do was and Christianity to be true. I do was and Christianity to be true. I do really because I think it's the fact really because I think it's the fact really because I think it's the fact that no book has been written more about that no book has been written more about that no book has been written more about anyone in the whole of history anyone in the whole of history anyone in the whole of history but this guy from Nazareth who would but this guy from Nazareth who would but this guy from Nazareth who would have ever thought. I mean you know have ever thought. I mean you know have ever thought. I mean you know Einstein, Newton, Hawking, what like Einstein, Newton, Hawking, what like Einstein, Newton, Hawking, what like there's so many other people you would there's so many other people you would there's so many other people you would think more people have been written think more people have been written think more people have been written about but no it's this guy from Nazareth about but no it's this guy from Nazareth about but no it's this guy from Nazareth of all places. of all places. of all places. Crazy. Never never drew a sword nothing Crazy. Never never drew a sword nothing Crazy. Never never drew a sword nothing and we're still like that for me that and we're still like that for me that and we're still like that for me that just is such power in that. But yeah just is such power in that. But yeah just is such power in that. But yeah we'll see what Wael says here. we'll see what Wael says here. we'll see what Wael says here. >> There are a few mysteries in this for >> There are a few mysteries in this for >> There are a few mysteries in this for me. The the first is like okay so so so me. The the first is like okay so so so me. The the first is like okay so so so much of this relies upon Paul who I much of this relies upon Paul who I much of this relies upon Paul who I think is at best unclear about the think is at best unclear about the think is at best unclear about the physicality of Jesus. I mean like physicality of Jesus. I mean like physicality of Jesus. I mean like Trent has just defended Paul's use of Trent has just defended Paul's use of Trent has just defended Paul's use of the word spiritual in a way that would the word spiritual in a way that would the word spiritual in a way that would like spiritual body. He also just to be like spiritual body. He also just to be like spiritual body. He also just to be clear you you mentioned Philippians I clear you you mentioned Philippians I clear you you mentioned Philippians I think it's chapter 3 where where Paul think it's chapter 3 where where Paul think it's chapter 3 where where Paul says you know we will sort of says you know we will sort of says you know we will sort of take on a new body just like Christ and take on a new body just like Christ and take on a new body just like Christ and you said Christ's physical body. The you said Christ's physical body. The you said Christ's physical body. The text doesn't say that. It says body but text doesn't say that. It says body but text doesn't say that. It says body but it does not say physical body just to be it does not say physical body just to be it does not say physical body just to be absolutely clear. Right I understand absolutely clear. Right I understand absolutely clear. Right I understand that the use of the word body there that the use of the word body there that the use of the word body there probably means something corporeal to probably means something corporeal to probably means something corporeal to most readers but it's not clear. In the most readers but it's not clear. In the most readers but it's not clear. In the same way that Trent hears the word same way that Trent hears the word same way that Trent hears the word spiritual body and says well Paul kind spiritual body and says well Paul kind spiritual body and says well Paul kind of meant this." When I hear the use of of meant this." When I hear the use of of meant this." When I hear the use of the word body, I can say, "Well, you the word body, I can say, "Well, you the word body, I can say, "Well, you know, they kind of mean this."

know, they kind of mean this." know, they kind of mean this." My reading is that I just I just kind of My reading is that I just I just kind of My reading is that I just I just kind of don't really know about the nature of don't really know about the nature of don't really know about the nature of the resurrected body. That's from Paul, the resurrected body. That's from Paul, the resurrected body. That's from Paul, who never actually met the risen Jesus. who never actually met the risen Jesus. who never actually met the risen Jesus. This is the thing. This is the key This is the thing. This is the key This is the thing. This is the key thing. Where can we go to find accounts thing. Where can we go to find accounts thing. Where can we go to find accounts of what the actual risen Jesus was of what the actual risen Jesus was of what the actual risen Jesus was actually like? Well, actually like? Well, actually like? Well, there are no eyewitness accounts. There there are no eyewitness accounts. There there are no eyewitness accounts. There are at best even if you Okay, if you are at best even if you Okay, if you are at best even if you Okay, if you agree with the traditional authorship of agree with the traditional authorship of agree with the traditional authorship of the Gospels, then maybe there are two, the Gospels, then maybe there are two, the Gospels, then maybe there are two, right? But like what is the nature of right? But like what is the nature of right? But like what is the nature of some of the the post-resurrection some of the the post-resurrection some of the the post-resurrection experiences that we're that we're given? experiences that we're that we're given? experiences that we're that we're given? I mean, firstly, there's just the I mean, firstly, there's just the I mean, firstly, there's just the problem that our earliest Gospel doesn't problem that our earliest Gospel doesn't problem that our earliest Gospel doesn't have any at all. Uh and the fact that as have any at all. Uh and the fact that as have any at all. Uh and the fact that as the the the as the dates get later for the Gospels, as the dates get later for the Gospels, as the dates get later for the Gospels, the stories get more and they also get the stories get more and they also get the stories get more and they also get more fanciful and they also get more more fanciful and they also get more more fanciful and they also get more theological. theological. theological. >> So, you're referring to Mark's Gospel >> So, you're referring to Mark's Gospel >> So, you're referring to Mark's Gospel there where there's an allusion to an there where there's an allusion to an there where there's an allusion to an appearance to Peter in Galilee, but we appearance to Peter in Galilee, but we appearance to Peter in Galilee, but we don't have that appearance narrated. don't have that appearance narrated. don't have that appearance narrated. >> That's that's right. I mean, Mark's >> That's that's right. I mean, Mark's >> That's that's right. I mean, Mark's Gospel at least the earliest manuscripts Gospel at least the earliest manuscripts Gospel at least the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel end with the women of Mark's Gospel end with the women of Mark's Gospel end with the women fleeing, afraid, saying nothing, um fleeing, afraid, saying nothing, um fleeing, afraid, saying nothing, um which is sort of in keeping with with which is sort of in keeping with with which is sort of in keeping with with Markan themes about, you know, uh Markan themes about, you know, uh Markan themes about, you know, uh cowardice and and and going away. Uh cowardice and and and going away. Uh cowardice and and and going away. Uh there's lots to be said about the empty there's lots to be said about the empty there's lots to be said about the empty tomb. Maybe we can get onto that in in tomb. Maybe we can get onto that in in tomb. Maybe we can get onto that in in the third section or something, but the third section or something, but the third section or something, but these experiences, I mean, these experiences, I mean, these experiences, I mean, okay, so there's this idea of having a a okay, so there's this idea of having a a okay, so there's this idea of having a a a new resurrected body. Got a couple of a new resurrected body. Got a couple of a new resurrected body. Got a couple of mysteries. Firstly, mysteries. Firstly, mysteries. Firstly, Jesus in John's Gospel is still said to Jesus in John's Gospel is still said to Jesus in John's Gospel is still said to have the the stigmata. That is the the have the the stigmata. That is the the have the the stigmata. That is the the the wounds in the hands and the side.

the wounds in the hands and the side. the wounds in the hands and the side. Right? To the extent that Thomas is Right? To the extent that Thomas is Right? To the extent that Thomas is allowed to see them. He's invited to see allowed to see them. He's invited to see allowed to see them. He's invited to see them. We don't know whether he actually them. We don't know whether he actually them. We don't know whether he actually touches them or not. So, don't take that touches them or not. So, don't take that touches them or not. So, don't take that as evidence of physicality. as evidence of physicality. as evidence of physicality. >> Vauge was correct. >> Vauge was correct. >> Vauge was correct. >> It's I Well, in fact, he was he was >> It's I Well, in fact, he was he was >> It's I Well, in fact, he was he was almost almost certainly false in my almost almost certainly false in my almost almost certainly false in my view. Um it seems to me a better reading view. Um it seems to me a better reading view. Um it seems to me a better reading that as soon as Thomas is given the that as soon as Thomas is given the that as soon as Thomas is given the opportunity Bear in mind, people forget opportunity Bear in mind, people forget opportunity Bear in mind, people forget this. Jesus appears to the 11 and shows this. Jesus appears to the 11 and shows this. Jesus appears to the 11 and shows them his wounds. them his wounds. them his wounds. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they and they sort of believe in >> And they and they sort of believe in >> And they and they sort of believe in him. And then Thomas isn't among them. him. And then Thomas isn't among them. him. And then Thomas isn't among them. And then Thomas says, "Until I see the And then Thomas says, "Until I see the And then Thomas says, "Until I see the wounds." And we we sort of lambast wounds." And we we sort of lambast wounds." And we we sort of lambast Thomas for not having enough faith, even Thomas for not having enough faith, even Thomas for not having enough faith, even though Jesus showed his wounds to the to though Jesus showed his wounds to the to though Jesus showed his wounds to the to the 11 first. But no one is ever said to the 11 first. But no one is ever said to the 11 first. But no one is ever said to touch them. But the fact is he's still touch them. But the fact is he's still touch them. But the fact is he's still got the stigmata. Now, I want to say if got the stigmata. Now, I want to say if got the stigmata. Now, I want to say if if Jesus' resurrected body is if Jesus' resurrected body is if Jesus' resurrected body is essentially the same one that he died on essentially the same one that he died on essentially the same one that he died on the cross with, why does he retain some the cross with, why does he retain some the cross with, why does he retain some of his of his of his sort of physical elements, but not all sort of physical elements, but not all sort of physical elements, but not all of them? of them? of them? I mean, for example, Jesus walking on I mean, for example, Jesus walking on I mean, for example, Jesus walking on the road to Emmaus in Luke's gospel, one the road to Emmaus in Luke's gospel, one the road to Emmaus in Luke's gospel, one of the most extraordinary stories in the of the most extraordinary stories in the of the most extraordinary stories in the fact that fact that fact that the two disciples clearly passing the the two disciples clearly passing the the two disciples clearly passing the other one other one other one don't recognize Jesus. don't recognize Jesus. don't recognize Jesus. And yet when he sits down and breaks And yet when he sits down and breaks And yet when he sits down and breaks bread, they suddenly recognize him. Now, bread, they suddenly recognize him. Now, bread, they suddenly recognize him. Now, there could be some sort of miraculous there could be some sort of miraculous there could be some sort of miraculous intervention here, right?

intervention here, right? intervention here, right? >> Well, I don't actually think this is a >> Well, I don't actually think this is a >> Well, I don't actually think this is a very good argument cuz you could you very good argument cuz you could you very good argument cuz you could you could easily say where he went through could easily say where he went through could easily say where he went through one of the most torturous deaths one of the most torturous deaths one of the most torturous deaths possible, he's going to look a bit possible, he's going to look a bit possible, he's going to look a bit different. That's I mean, maybe I'm sure different. That's I mean, maybe I'm sure different. That's I mean, maybe I'm sure people could dispute that, but I mean people could dispute that, but I mean people could dispute that, but I mean just off the top of my head. just off the top of my head. just off the top of my head. >> I think of these as historical sources. >> I think of these as historical sources. >> I think of these as historical sources. It seems to me that this is the genre of It seems to me that this is the genre of It seems to me that this is the genre of mythology. I mean, I don't know if Trent mythology. I mean, I don't know if Trent mythology. I mean, I don't know if Trent believes that the road to Emmaus to be a believes that the road to Emmaus to be a believes that the road to Emmaus to be a historical story of something that historical story of something that historical story of something that actually happened. It seems to me actually happened. It seems to me actually happened. It seems to me definitely mythological. That's not to definitely mythological. That's not to definitely mythological. That's not to say false or made up, it's just to say say false or made up, it's just to say say false or made up, it's just to say it's a particular genre. And certainly it's a particular genre. And certainly it's a particular genre. And certainly if Jesus still had the wounds from his if Jesus still had the wounds from his if Jesus still had the wounds from his crucifixion, I think that a a man who crucifixion, I think that a a man who crucifixion, I think that a a man who just undergone a brutal crucifixion a just undergone a brutal crucifixion a just undergone a brutal crucifixion a few days earlier would be noticeably few days earlier would be noticeably few days earlier would be noticeably recognizable as such. But it seems that recognizable as such. But it seems that recognizable as such. But it seems that Jesus' body is glorified. Jesus' body is glorified. Jesus' body is glorified. It seems that it's not something like It seems that it's not something like It seems that it's not something like And yet when you get to John's gospel, And yet when you get to John's gospel, And yet when you get to John's gospel, he's still got the wounds of his he's still got the wounds of his he's still got the wounds of his crucifixion, but I guess like only some crucifixion, but I guess like only some crucifixion, but I guess like only some of them. Yeah, okay, maybe God decided of them. Yeah, okay, maybe God decided of them. Yeah, okay, maybe God decided to give him like a new spiritual body, to give him like a new spiritual body, to give him like a new spiritual body, but kept the stigmata as some kind like but kept the stigmata as some kind like but kept the stigmata as some kind like I think, you know, Augustine and people I think, you know, Augustine and people I think, you know, Augustine and people like this write about how it was kind of like this write about how it was kind of like this write about how it was kind of like a trophy of his victory and stuff. like a trophy of his victory and stuff. like a trophy of his victory and stuff. I don't know why why wouldn't blood on I don't know why why wouldn't blood on I don't know why why wouldn't blood on his head from the crown of thorns be a his head from the crown of thorns be a his head from the crown of thorns be a be a literal trophy of his victory, you be a literal trophy of his victory, you be a literal trophy of his victory, you know, why the stigmata? Maybe because know, why the stigmata? Maybe because know, why the stigmata? Maybe because it's a sort of it's a sort of it's a sort of a good narrative point. It it's a very a good narrative point. It it's a very a good narrative point. It it's a very sort of striking image that can be used sort of striking image that can be used sort of striking image that can be used in what is essentially a theological and in what is essentially a theological and in what is essentially a theological and a non-historical a non-historical a non-historical story.

story. story. >> So, I think this is a really great >> So, I think this is a really great >> So, I think this is a really great argument Alex puts in. I'm a Christian, argument Alex puts in. I'm a Christian, argument Alex puts in. I'm a Christian, I don't believe I don't believe I don't believe that Jesus wasn't God. I do believe that Jesus wasn't God. I do believe that Jesus wasn't God. I do believe Jesus was God, and I really do believe Jesus was God, and I really do believe Jesus was God, and I really do believe that he was divine and he was the man that he was divine and he was the man that he was divine and he was the man who performed miracles. He was the man who performed miracles. He was the man who performed miracles. He was the man who spoke to the unspeakable. He was a who spoke to the unspeakable. He was a who spoke to the unspeakable. He was a man who drew bridges and he is Lord man who drew bridges and he is Lord man who drew bridges and he is Lord Messiah. And Jesus, however, I think Messiah. And Jesus, however, I think Messiah. And Jesus, however, I think there are some incredible arguments there are some incredible arguments there are some incredible arguments against that. And I think there's also against that. And I think there's also against that. And I think there's also Alex in such good faith here does speak Alex in such good faith here does speak Alex in such good faith here does speak about these issues. And I think Alex is about these issues. And I think Alex is about these issues. And I think Alex is genuinely seeking the truth. And as genuinely seeking the truth. And as genuinely seeking the truth. And as Jesus famously said, the truth will set Jesus famously said, the truth will set Jesus famously said, the truth will set you free. So, we must never ever live in you free. So, we must never ever live in you free. So, we must never ever live in this blissful ignorance and when this blissful ignorance and when this blissful ignorance and when somebody makes a good point, we must somebody makes a good point, we must somebody makes a good point, we must always say they made a good point. always say they made a good point. always say they made a good point. That's why I just want to share this cuz That's why I just want to share this cuz That's why I just want to share this cuz I thought it's brilliant by Alex and my I thought it's brilliant by Alex and my I thought it's brilliant by Alex and my full respect and hats off to him. But full respect and hats off to him. But full respect and hats off to him. But yeah, I love you all. Take it easy. yeah, I love you all. Take it easy. yeah, I love you all. Take it easy. Watch these two videos here if you might Watch these two videos here if you might Watch these two videos here if you might be interested and I'll see you on the be interested and I'll see you on the be interested and I'll see you on the next one very soon.