The Forbidden History of Heaven & Hell: N.T. Wright Debunks Popular Myths

So so much of our view of heaven and So so much of our view of heaven and hell is quite frankly super wrong, not hell is quite frankly super wrong, not hell is quite frankly super wrong, not theological, not Christian, whatever you theological, not Christian, whatever you theological, not Christian, whatever you want to call it. So watch as this top want to call it. So watch as this top want to call it. So watch as this top historian perfectly lays out the truth historian perfectly lays out the truth historian perfectly lays out the truth about heaven and hell. Ladies and about heaven and hell. Ladies and about heaven and hell. Ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, >> we need to take several steps back. As >> we need to take several steps back. As >> we need to take several steps back. As is often the case with 20th century or is often the case with 20th century or is often the case with 20th century or 21st century Christianity, we've got 21st century Christianity, we've got 21st century Christianity, we've got ourselves into difficulties. And when ourselves into difficulties. And when ourselves into difficulties. And when you simply take some sermon or book or you simply take some sermon or book or you simply take some sermon or book or whatever and say what's the response to whatever and say what's the response to whatever and say what's the response to that, the answer is you need to work that, the answer is you need to work that, the answer is you need to work back and see where that's coming from. back and see where that's coming from. back and see where that's coming from. Now the big one is that when people hear Now the big one is that when people hear Now the big one is that when people hear the word hell, they basically conjure up the word hell, they basically conjure up the word hell, they basically conjure up a medieval vision which was actually an a medieval vision which was actually an a medieval vision which was actually an ancient pagan vision of nasty little ancient pagan vision of nasty little ancient pagan vision of nasty little demons wanting to torment people in an demons wanting to torment people in an demons wanting to torment people in an afterlife. I mean that goes back into afterlife. I mean that goes back into afterlife. I mean that goes back into ancient paganism. That was the reason ancient paganism. That was the reason ancient paganism. That was the reason why the philosophy called Epicuranism why the philosophy called Epicuranism why the philosophy called Epicuranism was invented in the first place was a was invented in the first place was a was invented in the first place was a way of saying to people three centuries way of saying to people three centuries way of saying to people three centuries before Christ, don't worry, there's none before Christ, don't worry, there's none before Christ, don't worry, there's none of that demons, demons tormenting you at of that demons, demons tormenting you at of that demons, demons tormenting you at all.

all. all. >> And you might be wondering, what the >> And you might be wondering, what the >> And you might be wondering, what the hell is Epicuranism? And just a little hell is Epicuranism? And just a little hell is Epicuranism? And just a little summary. So it advocated from summary. So it advocated from summary. So it advocated from materialistic philosophy focused on materialistic philosophy focused on materialistic philosophy focused on achieving a tranquil, pain-free life achieving a tranquil, pain-free life achieving a tranquil, pain-free life through moderate pleasure, friendship, through moderate pleasure, friendship, through moderate pleasure, friendship, and then the elimination of fear. He and then the elimination of fear. He and then the elimination of fear. He taught that happiness comes from taught that happiness comes from taught that happiness comes from satisfying necessary desires simply satisfying necessary desires simply satisfying necessary desires simply rejecting the fear of gods and death as rejecting the fear of gods and death as rejecting the fear of gods and death as he believed both soul and body he believed both soul and body he believed both soul and body autoimmistically dissolved upon earth. autoimmistically dissolved upon earth. autoimmistically dissolved upon earth. So a kind of materialistic view you So a kind of materialistic view you So a kind of materialistic view you could say in some way what some of the could say in some way what some of the could say in some way what some of the new atheists have adopted. So that's new atheists have adopted. So that's new atheists have adopted. So that's what he's talking about there just as a what he's talking about there just as a what he's talking about there just as a clarification. clarification. clarification. >> You die you die then you just go into >> You die you die then you just go into >> You die you die then you just go into nothingness. So there's nothing to worry nothingness. So there's nothing to worry nothingness. So there's nothing to worry about is there? You may feel a bit sad about is there? You may feel a bit sad about is there? You may feel a bit sad about that but there's certainly nothing about that but there's certainly nothing about that but there's certainly nothing to be alarmed at. Now many people today to be alarmed at. Now many people today to be alarmed at. Now many people today are in our world are actually epicurans are in our world are actually epicurans are in our world are actually epicurans without realizing it. Um and so often without realizing it. Um and so often without realizing it. Um and so often when Christians say no no no there is a when Christians say no no no there is a when Christians say no no no there is a future life then how are you going to future life then how are you going to future life then how are you going to describe that and so we lapse back into describe that and so we lapse back into describe that and so we lapse back into the medieval picture which is a the medieval picture which is a the medieval picture which is a repination of the ancient pagan vision. repination of the ancient pagan vision. repination of the ancient pagan vision. Quite a lot of bits and pieces of Quite a lot of bits and pieces of Quite a lot of bits and pieces of medieval theology was really a bringing medieval theology was really a bringing medieval theology was really a bringing back into the Christian world uh stuff back into the Christian world uh stuff back into the Christian world uh stuff from ancient paganism rather than from ancient paganism rather than from ancient paganism rather than thinking through the meaning of the thinking through the meaning of the thinking through the meaning of the gospel. And there's so much truth in gospel. And there's so much truth in gospel. And there's so much truth in that. If you look at before the that. If you look at before the that. If you look at before the Enlightenment, if you look at people Enlightenment, if you look at people Enlightenment, if you look at people like William Tindell who translated the like William Tindell who translated the like William Tindell who translated the Bible into English, before that Bible into English, before that Bible into English, before that happened, there would be priests that happened, there would be priests that happened, there would be priests that would literally say, "Give me money and would literally say, "Give me money and would literally say, "Give me money and I'll get you to heaven. Give me money I'll get you to heaven. Give me money I'll get you to heaven. Give me money and I'll put you in purgatory for your and I'll put you in purgatory for your and I'll put you in purgatory for your wrongdoing." And there was a completely wrongdoing." And there was a completely wrongdoing." And there was a completely warped view of what heaven and hell was.

warped view of what heaven and hell was. warped view of what heaven and hell was. And so much of that penicious kind of And so much of that penicious kind of And so much of that penicious kind of saturation of damnation and what hell saturation of damnation and what hell saturation of damnation and what hell means came from things that weren't means came from things that weren't means came from things that weren't actually rooted in the gospel, weren't actually rooted in the gospel, weren't actually rooted in the gospel, weren't actually rooted in scholarship. You actually rooted in scholarship. You actually rooted in scholarship. You know, I mean, even the likes of Dante's know, I mean, even the likes of Dante's know, I mean, even the likes of Dante's Inferno, which I haven't even read to be Inferno, which I haven't even read to be Inferno, which I haven't even read to be honest, that the amount of influence honest, that the amount of influence honest, that the amount of influence that has had on Christian thinking of that has had on Christian thinking of that has had on Christian thinking of hell and heaven is crazy. And it's not hell and heaven is crazy. And it's not hell and heaven is crazy. And it's not even a theological book in it some way. even a theological book in it some way. even a theological book in it some way. It's not based on the gospel. So, it It's not based on the gospel. So, it It's not based on the gospel. So, it just goes to show how warped our view just goes to show how warped our view just goes to show how warped our view is. So, it's going to be very is. So, it's going to be very is. So, it's going to be very interesting what Entright comes out with interesting what Entright comes out with interesting what Entright comes out with here about heaven and hell. I will just here about heaven and hell. I will just here about heaven and hell. I will just give a disclaimer. If you're wondering give a disclaimer. If you're wondering give a disclaimer. If you're wondering what what is heaven and hell, I'm so what what is heaven and hell, I'm so what what is heaven and hell, I'm so clueless. Read The Great Divorce by CS clueless. Read The Great Divorce by CS clueless. Read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. I'm actually reading it for the Lewis. I'm actually reading it for the Lewis. I'm actually reading it for the third time and I'm getting even more out third time and I'm getting even more out third time and I'm getting even more out of it than before. So, do give that a of it than before. So, do give that a of it than before. So, do give that a listen. Sorry, I'll read. Ladies and listen. Sorry, I'll read. Ladies and listen. Sorry, I'll read. Ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, >> we need to demystify a lot of that image >> we need to demystify a lot of that image >> we need to demystify a lot of that image of hell. Whether we've got it from of hell. Whether we've got it from of hell. Whether we've got it from actual reading of of the medieval stuff actual reading of of the medieval stuff actual reading of of the medieval stuff or whether we've got it from Milton's or whether we've got it from Milton's or whether we've got it from Milton's Paradise Lost with Satan in hell with Paradise Lost with Satan in hell with Paradise Lost with Satan in hell with his with his demons or whether we've got his with his demons or whether we've got his with his demons or whether we've got it um from from other other images that it um from from other other images that it um from from other other images that that have become well known in the that have become well known in the that have become well known in the culture. I think for instance James culture. I think for instance James culture. I think for instance James Joyce's novel portrait of the artist as Joyce's novel portrait of the artist as Joyce's novel portrait of the artist as a young man which is a hugely important a young man which is a hugely important a young man which is a hugely important and powerful novel and includes quite and powerful novel and includes quite and powerful novel and includes quite early on uh a school chapel setting with early on uh a school chapel setting with early on uh a school chapel setting with an old Catholic priest priest preaching an old Catholic priest priest preaching an old Catholic priest priest preaching about hell and it's the most wonderful about hell and it's the most wonderful about hell and it's the most wonderful piece of rhetoric designed to send every piece of rhetoric designed to send every piece of rhetoric designed to send every school boy in the place scurrying off to school boy in the place scurrying off to school boy in the place scurrying off to the confessional to confess their sins

the confessional to confess their sins the confessional to confess their sins to seek forgiveness because if they were to seek forgiveness because if they were to seek forgiveness because if they were run over by a a horse in the street they run over by a a horse in the street they run over by a a horse in the street they they don't want to be going there. Thank they don't want to be going there. Thank they don't want to be going there. Thank you very much. So that that's how that you very much. So that that's how that you very much. So that that's how that stuff works. stuff works. stuff works. >> Bring this back to Paul in Corinthians >> Bring this back to Paul in Corinthians >> Bring this back to Paul in Corinthians just how wrong this kind of view is in just how wrong this kind of view is in just how wrong this kind of view is in the sense that if you are going to the sense that if you are going to the sense that if you are going to confess your sins, if you're going to do confess your sins, if you're going to do confess your sins, if you're going to do things that are good from fear, from things that are good from fear, from things that are good from fear, from genuine fear, that is not the godly way. genuine fear, that is not the godly way. genuine fear, that is not the godly way. Paul reiterates, everything we do must Paul reiterates, everything we do must Paul reiterates, everything we do must be done in love. And we must never be done in love. And we must never be done in love. And we must never forget that. You know, the reason people forget that. You know, the reason people forget that. You know, the reason people are disciplined, the reason people are disciplined, the reason people are disciplined, the reason people follow scripture to the tea, you know, follow scripture to the tea, you know, follow scripture to the tea, you know, some incredible theologians and people some incredible theologians and people some incredible theologians and people like John Wesley and stuff is not from a like John Wesley and stuff is not from a like John Wesley and stuff is not from a place of fear, but is a place from love place of fear, but is a place from love place of fear, but is a place from love of God. And this is the really of God. And this is the really of God. And this is the really penicious, damaging thing that I think penicious, damaging thing that I think penicious, damaging thing that I think churches get so wrong when they preach churches get so wrong when they preach churches get so wrong when they preach the gospel. Often you see it where the gospel. Often you see it where the gospel. Often you see it where people almost are terrified of doing people almost are terrified of doing people almost are terrified of doing something. They suppress their body. something. They suppress their body. something. They suppress their body. today. May that be to do with sex. May today. May that be to do with sex. May today. May that be to do with sex. May that be to do with lust. May that be to that be to do with lust. May that be to that be to do with lust. May that be to do with greed, money, whatever it is, do with greed, money, whatever it is, do with greed, money, whatever it is, the the core thing that must be always the the core thing that must be always the the core thing that must be always remembered and is always in line with remembered and is always in line with remembered and is always in line with the gospel. What Paul spoke about, what the gospel. What Paul spoke about, what the gospel. What Paul spoke about, what Jesus spoke about is love. Everything we Jesus spoke about is love. Everything we Jesus spoke about is love. Everything we do must be done in love. That is the do must be done in love. That is the do must be done in love. That is the core, the central message of core, the central message of core, the central message of Christianity. And the place that gets so Christianity. And the place that gets so Christianity. And the place that gets so so damaging is when we do it from a so damaging is when we do it from a so damaging is when we do it from a place of fear, not love.

place of fear, not love. place of fear, not love. And love can transform anything, but And love can transform anything, but And love can transform anything, but fear is not. Now, it does say in pro fear is not. Now, it does say in pro fear is not. Now, it does say in pro proverbs, fear of the Lord is the proverbs, fear of the Lord is the proverbs, fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. And it does beginning of all wisdom. And it does beginning of all wisdom. And it does reiterate that throughout Proverbs, and reiterate that throughout Proverbs, and reiterate that throughout Proverbs, and there's a lot of truth of that, but when there's a lot of truth of that, but when there's a lot of truth of that, but when it speaks about fear, it is not speaking it speaks about fear, it is not speaking it speaks about fear, it is not speaking about the fear that we conceptualize in about the fear that we conceptualize in about the fear that we conceptualize in the same way. Now, it's important, I the same way. Now, it's important, I the same way. Now, it's important, I think, to be in awe and in a positive think, to be in awe and in a positive think, to be in awe and in a positive way of God. Now, some people could say, way of God. Now, some people could say, way of God. Now, some people could say, well, is there such thing as positive well, is there such thing as positive well, is there such thing as positive fear? you know, Christopher Hitchens, fear? you know, Christopher Hitchens, fear? you know, Christopher Hitchens, like is God good? Really? If if there's like is God good? Really? If if there's like is God good? Really? If if there's this terri, you know, this all powerful this terri, you know, this all powerful this terri, you know, this all powerful thing that sees everything you do, thing that sees everything you do, thing that sees everything you do, punishes your wrongdoings, he's a punishes your wrongdoings, he's a punishes your wrongdoings, he's a tyrant, he's not good. Even if God does tyrant, he's not good. Even if God does tyrant, he's not good. Even if God does exist, he's not good. He's not someone exist, he's not good. He's not someone exist, he's not good. He's not someone want to follow. And I think we have a we want to follow. And I think we have a we want to follow. And I think we have a we have a war view of fear. And fear is have a war view of fear. And fear is have a war view of fear. And fear is very many negative connotations. But if very many negative connotations. But if very many negative connotations. But if you read Proverbs, you understand what you read Proverbs, you understand what you read Proverbs, you understand what it means by fear of the Lord. Now, you it means by fear of the Lord. Now, you it means by fear of the Lord. Now, you could say, "I'm just kind of got a could say, "I'm just kind of got a could say, "I'm just kind of got a biased view here as a Christian and I'm biased view here as a Christian and I'm biased view here as a Christian and I'm kind of, you know, doing mental kind of, you know, doing mental kind of, you know, doing mental gymnastics to incorporate into what I gymnastics to incorporate into what I gymnastics to incorporate into what I want to do." You could make a fair point want to do." You could make a fair point want to do." You could make a fair point there. But I do think there's so much there. But I do think there's so much there. But I do think there's so much truth in that. You know, fear of the truth in that. You know, fear of the truth in that. You know, fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom, but Lord is the beginning of all wisdom, but Lord is the beginning of all wisdom, but everything we done must be done in love.

everything we done must be done in love. everything we done must be done in love. And those two go together as one. It's And those two go together as one. It's And those two go together as one. It's not like a just fear of the Lord is the not like a just fear of the Lord is the not like a just fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. I think that's beginning of all wisdom. I think that's beginning of all wisdom. I think that's very important to remember. But anyway, very important to remember. But anyway, very important to remember. But anyway, enough of my ranting. enough of my ranting. enough of my ranting. >> If you want to see how that stuff >> If you want to see how that stuff >> If you want to see how that stuff worked, that's a great place to go and worked, that's a great place to go and worked, that's a great place to go and look. And I want to say we need to get look. And I want to say we need to get look. And I want to say we need to get back behind all of that. I I think when back behind all of that. I I think when back behind all of that. I I think when I look at the New Testament, there's one I look at the New Testament, there's one I look at the New Testament, there's one strand which we have to be very careful strand which we have to be very careful strand which we have to be very careful about and that's when Jesus talks about about and that's when Jesus talks about about and that's when Jesus talks about the upcoming judgment on Jerusalem. the upcoming judgment on Jerusalem. the upcoming judgment on Jerusalem. Because in say a passage like Luke 13, Because in say a passage like Luke 13, Because in say a passage like Luke 13, it's clear when we read the whole it's clear when we read the whole it's clear when we read the whole passage that that is what Jesus is passage that that is what Jesus is passage that that is what Jesus is talking about. Indeed, a lot of Luke has talking about. Indeed, a lot of Luke has talking about. Indeed, a lot of Luke has Jesus warning that if Israel doesn't Jesus warning that if Israel doesn't Jesus warning that if Israel doesn't repent, then Jerusalem itself is going repent, then Jerusalem itself is going repent, then Jerusalem itself is going to be overthrown. And that's what Luke to be overthrown. And that's what Luke to be overthrown. And that's what Luke 13 is really all about. But the way that 13 is really all about. But the way that 13 is really all about. But the way that Jesus says that is that when uh he is Jesus says that is that when uh he is Jesus says that is that when uh he is told about some Galileans who have been told about some Galileans who have been told about some Galileans who have been in the temple and Pilate had killed them in the temple and Pilate had killed them in the temple and Pilate had killed them so that their blood was mingling with so that their blood was mingling with so that their blood was mingling with the sacrificial blood of the temple. And the sacrificial blood of the temple. And the sacrificial blood of the temple. And Jesus says, "Do you suppose that they Jesus says, "Do you suppose that they Jesus says, "Do you suppose that they were greater sinners than all other were greater sinners than all other were greater sinners than all other Galileans?" He says, "No, let me tell Galileans?" He says, "No, let me tell Galileans?" He says, "No, let me tell you, unless you repent, you will all be you, unless you repent, you will all be you, unless you repent, you will all be destroyed in the same way." And in the destroyed in the same way." And in the destroyed in the same way." And in the older translation, "Unless you repent, older translation, "Unless you repent, older translation, "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." And then you will all likewise perish." And then you will all likewise perish." And then he adds about 18 people who were killed he adds about 18 people who were killed he adds about 18 people who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on when the tower of Siloam collapsed on when the tower of Siloam collapsed on top of them. Were they worse sinners top of them. Were they worse sinners top of them. Were they worse sinners than everyone else? Jesus says, "No, but than everyone else? Jesus says, "No, but than everyone else? Jesus says, "No, but unless you repent, you will all be unless you repent, you will all be unless you repent, you will all be destroyed in the same way." Um, and the destroyed in the same way." Um, and the destroyed in the same way." Um, and the point about that is that he's not point about that is that he's not point about that is that he's not talking about people frying in hell talking about people frying in hell talking about people frying in hell after they die. He's talking about after they die. He's talking about after they die. He's talking about people who are hearing his message and

people who are hearing his message and people who are hearing his message and refusing to repent and they will find refusing to repent and they will find refusing to repent and they will find that Roman soldiers on the one hand and that Roman soldiers on the one hand and that Roman soldiers on the one hand and falling masonry in Jerusalem on the falling masonry in Jerusalem on the falling masonry in Jerusalem on the other will finish them off. And there other will finish them off. And there other will finish them off. And there are many passages in the New Testament are many passages in the New Testament are many passages in the New Testament which have traditionally been read as which have traditionally been read as which have traditionally been read as predictions of hell which are in fact predictions of hell which are in fact predictions of hell which are in fact predictions of the destruction of predictions of the destruction of predictions of the destruction of Jerusalem. And part of the point then is Jerusalem. And part of the point then is Jerusalem. And part of the point then is the idea of destruction is that the idea of destruction is that the idea of destruction is that something basically ceases to exist. And something basically ceases to exist. And something basically ceases to exist. And the word for that destruction then can the word for that destruction then can the word for that destruction then can often be interpreted in terms of the often be interpreted in terms of the often be interpreted in terms of the terror, the horror of it because we know terror, the horror of it because we know terror, the horror of it because we know in our bones that we humans are made for in our bones that we humans are made for in our bones that we humans are made for more than that. And and I want to uh more than that. And and I want to uh more than that. And and I want to uh want to reflect on the human vocation. want to reflect on the human vocation. want to reflect on the human vocation. We are called to be genuine humans. And We are called to be genuine humans. And We are called to be genuine humans. And this is not that we are called to behave this is not that we are called to behave this is not that we are called to behave ourselves and if we don't behave ourselves and if we don't behave ourselves and if we don't behave ourselves we'll end up in hell. That's ourselves we'll end up in hell. That's ourselves we'll end up in hell. That's the the trivial distortion of it. Rather the the trivial distortion of it. Rather the the trivial distortion of it. Rather we are called in being human to be God we are called in being human to be God we are called in being human to be God reflectors to be imagebearers to reflect reflectors to be imagebearers to reflect reflectors to be imagebearers to reflect the wisdom and love and stewardship of the wisdom and love and stewardship of the wisdom and love and stewardship of God into the creation and to reflect the God into the creation and to reflect the God into the creation and to reflect the praises of creation back to God.

praises of creation back to God. praises of creation back to God. >> I think this is so important to remember >> I think this is so important to remember >> I think this is so important to remember especially what he said about those who especially what he said about those who especially what he said about those who knew the message of Jesus and didn't knew the message of Jesus and didn't knew the message of Jesus and didn't transform their heart. who didn't transform their heart. who didn't transform their heart. who didn't transform their lives, those will be transform their lives, those will be transform their lives, those will be punished in the way he meant punish. punished in the way he meant punish. punished in the way he meant punish. It's very interesting what he says about It's very interesting what he says about It's very interesting what he says about what Jesus was actually referring to what Jesus was actually referring to what Jesus was actually referring to there. But I think the key thing to there. But I think the key thing to there. But I think the key thing to remember here is you see a lot of street remember here is you see a lot of street remember here is you see a lot of street preachers say, you know, repent the preachers say, you know, repent the preachers say, you know, repent the gospel or you're going to hell, you're gospel or you're going to hell, you're gospel or you're going to hell, you're going to die. You got to do it, mate, or going to die. You got to do it, mate, or going to die. You got to do it, mate, or you're screwed. The key thing there is you're screwed. The key thing there is you're screwed. The key thing there is what message are you actually taking in? what message are you actually taking in? what message are you actually taking in? And I think this goes to the core of it And I think this goes to the core of it And I think this goes to the core of it because there are people who do reject because there are people who do reject because there are people who do reject the gospel who do say I don't believe the gospel who do say I don't believe the gospel who do say I don't believe Jesus is Lord. I don't believe Jesus is Jesus is Lord. I don't believe Jesus is Jesus is Lord. I don't believe Jesus is Messiah. Messiah. Messiah. And the teaching they have got taught is And the teaching they have got taught is And the teaching they have got taught is if you do good things go to heaven. If if you do good things go to heaven. If if you do good things go to heaven. If you do bad things go tell. So they you do bad things go tell. So they you do bad things go tell. So they reject that. They say I do not believe reject that. They say I do not believe reject that. They say I do not believe this is true. I know loads of people who this is true. I know loads of people who this is true. I know loads of people who don't have a clue about Jesus who are don't have a clue about Jesus who are don't have a clue about Jesus who are great people. So they reject them. And great people. So they reject them. And great people. So they reject them. And the thing they're rejecting is not the thing they're rejecting is not the thing they're rejecting is not Jesus. I think that's the key thing Jesus. I think that's the key thing Jesus. I think that's the key thing there. Now, I'm an absolute universist there. Now, I'm an absolute universist there. Now, I'm an absolute universist when it comes to I know atheists. I know when it comes to I know atheists. I know when it comes to I know atheists. I know people who are so anti- relligion who people who are so anti- relligion who people who are so anti- relligion who are some of the most kind Christian are some of the most kind Christian are some of the most kind Christian people I'll ever meet. And I do not people I'll ever meet. And I do not people I'll ever meet. And I do not believe for a second that they will go believe for a second that they will go believe for a second that they will go to hell because what does it mean to to hell because what does it mean to to hell because what does it mean to reject Jesus, you know? So, it's it's reject Jesus, you know? So, it's it's reject Jesus, you know? So, it's it's always back well not always, but you always back well not always, but you always back well not always, but you know, Bonhoffer, a man who truly know, Bonhoffer, a man who truly know, Bonhoffer, a man who truly believed, who was willing to die for believed, who was willing to die for believed, who was willing to die for what he believed. I know there are what he believed. I know there are what he believed. I know there are people who are not Christian who would people who are not Christian who would people who are not Christian who would die to save someone. Is that believing?

die to save someone. Is that believing? die to save someone. Is that believing? How do you define belief? You know, How do you define belief? You know, How do you define belief? You know, someone can say they accept the gospel, someone can say they accept the gospel, someone can say they accept the gospel, but if they have a gun to their head and but if they have a gun to their head and but if they have a gun to their head and they say, "Denounce L Jesus is Lord." they say, "Denounce L Jesus is Lord." they say, "Denounce L Jesus is Lord." I'm sure they would. If they see a I'm sure they would. If they see a I'm sure they would. If they see a struggling man on the street who is in struggling man on the street who is in struggling man on the street who is in dying agony and despair and they have a dying agony and despair and they have a dying agony and despair and they have a bit of money, they might spend on bit of money, they might spend on bit of money, they might spend on themselves instead. However, there's themselves instead. However, there's themselves instead. However, there's someone who's not Christian who will someone who's not Christian who will someone who's not Christian who will spend money on helping that person. Is spend money on helping that person. Is spend money on helping that person. Is is the person who says Jesus is Lord is the person who says Jesus is Lord is the person who says Jesus is Lord really the person that is the Christian really the person that is the Christian really the person that is the Christian there or is it the other person you know there or is it the other person you know there or is it the other person you know look at the good Samaritan you know it look at the good Samaritan you know it look at the good Samaritan you know it was the religious leaders that didn't was the religious leaders that didn't was the religious leaders that didn't help the crippled hurt man it was yeah help the crippled hurt man it was yeah help the crippled hurt man it was yeah the Samaritan so it you know and that's the Samaritan so it you know and that's the Samaritan so it you know and that's not to say that we do we earn not to say that we do we earn not to say that we do we earn forgiveness or we earn God's love but forgiveness or we earn God's love but forgiveness or we earn God's love but it's to say what does it mean to believe it's to say what does it mean to believe it's to say what does it mean to believe because if you strip back everything. because if you strip back everything. because if you strip back everything. Ladies and gentlemen, you get to a place Ladies and gentlemen, you get to a place Ladies and gentlemen, you get to a place where you say if someone says they where you say if someone says they where you say if someone says they believe, do they really believe? Because believe, do they really believe? Because believe, do they really believe? Because there are people who quote unquote don't there are people who quote unquote don't there are people who quote unquote don't believe, but their actions show they do believe, but their actions show they do believe, but their actions show they do believe. So therefore, how it's all believe. So therefore, how it's all believe. So therefore, how it's all about how you kind of play the game of about how you kind of play the game of about how you kind of play the game of what it means to believe. Now, it does what it means to believe. Now, it does what it means to believe. Now, it does sound a bit postmodern. It does sound a sound a bit postmodern. It does sound a sound a bit postmodern. It does sound a bit semantic. You could say that. But I bit semantic. You could say that. But I bit semantic. You could say that. But I do think this is something we really do think this is something we really do think this is something we really should reflect on as Christians because should reflect on as Christians because should reflect on as Christians because far too many people think that, you far too many people think that, you far too many people think that, you know, just confessing Jesus as Lord is know, just confessing Jesus as Lord is know, just confessing Jesus as Lord is enough. And it does say in the Bible, enough. And it does say in the Bible, enough. And it does say in the Bible, you know, confess that Jesus is Lord you know, confess that Jesus is Lord you know, confess that Jesus is Lord with your heart and with your tongue and with your heart and with your tongue and with your heart and with your tongue and you'll inherit the kingdom of God. But you'll inherit the kingdom of God. But you'll inherit the kingdom of God. But when it says that, when it says confess

when it says that, when it says confess when it says that, when it says confess with your heart, confess with your with your heart, confess with your with your heart, confess with your tongue, I believe it means you really do tongue, I believe it means you really do tongue, I believe it means you really do need to confess with your heart and need to confess with your heart and need to confess with your heart and tongue. And it doesn't say, you know, tongue. And it doesn't say, you know, tongue. And it doesn't say, you know, confess, you know, do a good act and say confess, you know, do a good act and say confess, you know, do a good act and say aloud, I believe Jesus is Lord. You aloud, I believe Jesus is Lord. You aloud, I believe Jesus is Lord. You know, it means your heart, the depth of know, it means your heart, the depth of know, it means your heart, the depth of your soul. And what does it mean to your soul. And what does it mean to your soul. And what does it mean to confess with your tongue? You know there confess with your tongue? You know there confess with your tongue? You know there there's so many semantics there and I there's so many semantics there and I there's so many semantics there and I don't want to get too liberal with the don't want to get too liberal with the don't want to get too liberal with the way we interpret but I do think there's way we interpret but I do think there's way we interpret but I do think there's so much nuance and there is so much ways so much nuance and there is so much ways so much nuance and there is so much ways of what the words really mean because of what the words really mean because of what the words really mean because anyone can say they believe but unless anyone can say they believe but unless anyone can say they believe but unless their life is in danger unless they are their life is in danger unless they are their life is in danger unless they are faced with real hardship it's like faced with real hardship it's like faced with real hardship it's like kindness you know anyone can give money kindness you know anyone can give money kindness you know anyone can give money when they have a lot to give but when when they have a lot to give but when when they have a lot to give but when you don't have a lot do you give then you don't have a lot do you give then you don't have a lot do you give then that's the question ladies and gentlemen that's the question ladies and gentlemen that's the question ladies and gentlemen so I think there's so much profound so I think there's so much profound so I think there's so much profound truth in what entright saying here but truth in what entright saying here but truth in what entright saying here but yeah we'll we'll hear more of this yeah we'll we'll hear more of this yeah we'll we'll hear more of this wisdom. wisdom. wisdom. >> If somebody says, "I don't want to do >> If somebody says, "I don't want to do >> If somebody says, "I don't want to do that. I I want I'm going to be the that. I I want I'm going to be the that. I I want I'm going to be the center of my world. I am the master of center of my world. I am the master of center of my world. I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul. my fate. I am the captain of my soul. my fate. I am the captain of my soul. I'm going to do things my way and I will I'm going to do things my way and I will I'm going to do things my way and I will run my bit of the world to my own run my bit of the world to my own run my bit of the world to my own advantage and I'm not going to try to advantage and I'm not going to try to advantage and I'm not going to try to reflect God's goodness into the world reflect God's goodness into the world reflect God's goodness into the world and or I'm going to seek all the praise and or I'm going to seek all the praise and or I'm going to seek all the praise for myself and I'm not going to transmit for myself and I'm not going to transmit for myself and I'm not going to transmit the praises of the world to God. I'm the praises of the world to God. I'm the praises of the world to God. I'm going to treat the world as I want to."

going to treat the world as I want to." going to treat the world as I want to." Then if somebody says that what they are Then if somebody says that what they are Then if somebody says that what they are saying is I don't want to be an saying is I don't want to be an saying is I don't want to be an imagebearing human. imagebearing human. imagebearing human. >> And the question then is will God the >> And the question then is will God the >> And the question then is will God the creator say to the human beings he has creator say to the human beings he has creator say to the human beings he has created um never mind what you want I created um never mind what you want I created um never mind what you want I I'm going to make you okay anyway or I'm going to make you okay anyway or I'm going to make you okay anyway or will he say well that was your choice will he say well that was your choice will he say well that was your choice and you have made that choice. Now, for and you have made that choice. Now, for and you have made that choice. Now, for myself, it seems to me that the New myself, it seems to me that the New myself, it seems to me that the New Testament firmly supports the latter Testament firmly supports the latter Testament firmly supports the latter view that if you take a passage like view that if you take a passage like view that if you take a passage like Romans 2 or indeed many other passages, Romans 2 or indeed many other passages, Romans 2 or indeed many other passages, these are warnings that those who refuse these are warnings that those who refuse these are warnings that those who refuse God's call and invitation to become God's call and invitation to become God's call and invitation to become genuine humans will at the most end up genuine humans will at the most end up genuine humans will at the most end up as I hate to use the phrase, but as I hate to use the phrase, but as I hate to use the phrase, but exhumans. creatures that once were exhumans. creatures that once were exhumans. creatures that once were imagebearers or potential image bearsers imagebearers or potential image bearsers imagebearers or potential image bearsers but now do not have that capacity. but now do not have that capacity. but now do not have that capacity. Whether they exist in any meaningful Whether they exist in any meaningful Whether they exist in any meaningful sense, I'm actually not sure. If I think sense, I'm actually not sure. If I think sense, I'm actually not sure. If I think of CS Lewis's attempt at that in his of CS Lewis's attempt at that in his of CS Lewis's attempt at that in his book, The Great Divorce, the Lewis's book, The Great Divorce, the Lewis's book, The Great Divorce, the Lewis's picture of hell is people becoming more picture of hell is people becoming more picture of hell is people becoming more and more and more diminished, more and and more and more diminished, more and and more and more diminished, more and more tiny and irrelevant. And they are more tiny and irrelevant. And they are more tiny and irrelevant. And they are full of fury and hatred themselves. But full of fury and hatred themselves. But full of fury and hatred themselves. But in terms of God's new creation, they are in terms of God's new creation, they are in terms of God's new creation, they are next to nothing.

next to nothing. next to nothing. >> And and interestingly in the great >> And and interestingly in the great >> And and interestingly in the great divorce when he talks about those on the divorce when he talks about those on the divorce when he talks about those on the bus that went to heaven or like went to bus that went to heaven or like went to bus that went to heaven or like went to the garden before heaven, he speaks the garden before heaven, he speaks the garden before heaven, he speaks about them being like ghosts. And the about them being like ghosts. And the about them being like ghosts. And the people that were the angels and the people that were the angels and the people that were the angels and the people trying to bring and invite people people trying to bring and invite people people trying to bring and invite people to heaven were those of solid stature. to heaven were those of solid stature. to heaven were those of solid stature. They were the most human. And this is They were the most human. And this is They were the most human. And this is the key thing. To be a human is to be the key thing. To be a human is to be the key thing. To be a human is to be good. God created na the the natural good. God created na the the natural good. God created na the the natural world good. And CS Lewis really enforces world good. And CS Lewis really enforces world good. And CS Lewis really enforces this and hones in on it in the angels this and hones in on it in the angels this and hones in on it in the angels being the most humanlike possible. And being the most humanlike possible. And being the most humanlike possible. And the instead the people that reject it the instead the people that reject it the instead the people that reject it and the people that do come to heaven and the people that do come to heaven and the people that do come to heaven are ghostlike. They are, you know, they are ghostlike. They are, you know, they are ghostlike. They are, you know, they struggle to walk on the grass. They can struggle to walk on the grass. They can struggle to walk on the grass. They can barely lift up the plants. They can barely lift up the plants. They can barely lift up the plants. They can barely lift up the flowers. with all barely lift up the flowers. with all barely lift up the flowers. with all their might, they can just about do it their might, they can just about do it their might, they can just about do it because they are being diminished. As because they are being diminished. As because they are being diminished. As you said, they are becoming weaker. They you said, they are becoming weaker. They you said, they are becoming weaker. They are not what it means to be human where are not what it means to be human where are not what it means to be human where they can just pick something up. When they can just pick something up. When they can just pick something up. When they walk on water, they can barely they walk on water, they can barely they walk on water, they can barely sludge through it. They take ages to sludge through it. They take ages to sludge through it. They take ages to walk to places. This this notion that walk to places. This this notion that walk to places. This this notion that they are the inversion of human. And they are the inversion of human. And they are the inversion of human. And it's so important that our human bodies, it's so important that our human bodies, it's so important that our human bodies, who God created, is good. And do not who God created, is good. And do not who God created, is good. And do not forget this because your body and who forget this because your body and who forget this because your body and who you are as a human is good. and you are as a human is good. and you are as a human is good. and perfectly made. And the distortion and perfectly made. And the distortion and perfectly made. And the distortion and the the wrong message is the view that the the wrong message is the view that the the wrong message is the view that no, we wait to get to heaven. We wait to

no, we wait to get to heaven. We wait to no, we wait to get to heaven. We wait to get to paradise and we like we're, you get to paradise and we like we're, you get to paradise and we like we're, you know, we're completely transformed with know, we're completely transformed with know, we're completely transformed with something completely different when no, something completely different when no, something completely different when no, we are kind of infused as we are to our we are kind of infused as we are to our we are kind of infused as we are to our best potential because we are good. We best potential because we are good. We best potential because we are good. We are made in the image of God. And this are made in the image of God. And this are made in the image of God. And this is the really beautiful message of is the really beautiful message of is the really beautiful message of Christianity. I really do think Christianity. I really do think Christianity. I really do think >> I suspect that may be as good as we can >> I suspect that may be as good as we can >> I suspect that may be as good as we can get um in terms of trying to understand get um in terms of trying to understand get um in terms of trying to understand what it might mean for somebody to say what it might mean for somebody to say what it might mean for somebody to say no to God. And I have to say there are no to God. And I have to say there are no to God. And I have to say there are many people who lived through much of many people who lived through much of many people who lived through much of the 20th and now much of the 21st the 20th and now much of the 21st the 20th and now much of the 21st century who will look around at some of century who will look around at some of century who will look around at some of the radical evil and wickedness that has the radical evil and wickedness that has the radical evil and wickedness that has gone on and have said to themselves gone on and have said to themselves gone on and have said to themselves there has to be a hell because otherwise there has to be a hell because otherwise there has to be a hell because otherwise how could there be a god who could look how could there be a god who could look how could there be a god who could look on this and not be horrified and angry on this and not be horrified and angry on this and not be horrified and angry with the way that some people are with the way that some people are with the way that some people are behaving. Now of course when you behaving. Now of course when you behaving. Now of course when you criticize other people there are three criticize other people there are three criticize other people there are three fingers pointing back at yourself and fingers pointing back at yourself and fingers pointing back at yourself and all that. So we are at once driven back all that. So we are at once driven back all that. So we are at once driven back to humility and say Lord have mercy on to humility and say Lord have mercy on to humility and say Lord have mercy on me a sinner. But there are people who do me a sinner. But there are people who do me a sinner. But there are people who do seem as we might say hellbent on driving seem as we might say hellbent on driving seem as we might say hellbent on driving through the whole thing their way. And through the whole thing their way. And through the whole thing their way. And it's perfectly plausible in the New it's perfectly plausible in the New it's perfectly plausible in the New Testament would support this to say that Testament would support this to say that Testament would support this to say that God will say okay have it your way but God will say okay have it your way but God will say okay have it your way but that might mean an infinite diminishment that might mean an infinite diminishment that might mean an infinite diminishment until they are next to nothing. you're until they are next to nothing. you're until they are next to nothing. you're put in there and what an incredible put in there and what an incredible put in there and what an incredible historian and you're right highly historian and you're right highly historian and you're right highly suggest watching this podcast. I'll link suggest watching this podcast. I'll link suggest watching this podcast. I'll link the full episode down below. Do give it the full episode down below. Do give it the full episode down below. Do give it a watch, ladies and gentlemen. And I a watch, ladies and gentlemen. And I a watch, ladies and gentlemen. And I also want to just make it clear that

also want to just make it clear that also want to just make it clear that there's a great quote by CS Lewis. The there's a great quote by CS Lewis. The there's a great quote by CS Lewis. The gates of hell are shut from the inside. gates of hell are shut from the inside. gates of hell are shut from the inside. Now, what does this means? This means Now, what does this means? This means Now, what does this means? This means that we choose our own demise. We choose that we choose our own demise. We choose that we choose our own demise. We choose our own hell. No one else locks us our own hell. No one else locks us our own hell. No one else locks us there. No one else puts us there but us. there. No one else puts us there but us. there. No one else puts us there but us. What is hell? That's what we're trying What is hell? That's what we're trying What is hell? That's what we're trying to figure out. So do subscribe, do like. to figure out. So do subscribe, do like. to figure out. So do subscribe, do like. It would mean a lot. But do always hold It would mean a lot. But do always hold It would mean a lot. But do always hold on to this cuz if you're ever scared, on to this cuz if you're ever scared, on to this cuz if you're ever scared, just remember we decide. No one else. We just remember we decide. No one else. We just remember we decide. No one else. We decide. And I think that's such a decide. And I think that's such a decide. And I think that's such a powerful message. We choose to be in our powerful message. We choose to be in our powerful message. We choose to be in our own hell. We have a choice. Um what is own hell. We have a choice. Um what is own hell. We have a choice. Um what is the question of hell? Again, not sure. the question of hell? Again, not sure. the question of hell? Again, not sure. Watch these two videos here mean a lot. Watch these two videos here mean a lot. Watch these two videos here mean a lot. Love you all. God bless and I'll see you Love you all. God bless and I'll see you Love you all. God bless and I'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. Peace.