Alex O’Connor Dismantles Common Christian Defence of the Resurrection

and Mark, and the other gospels agree and Mark, and the other gospels agree with this, the first witnesses are with this, the first witnesses are with this, the first witnesses are women, and women's testimony in the women, and women's testimony in the women, and women's testimony in the ancient world is is incredibly low ancient world is is incredibly low ancient world is is incredibly low value. It's basically below a value. It's basically below a value. It's basically below a criminal's, which I think speaks to criminal's, which I think speaks to criminal's, which I think speaks to the fact that it's that it's that it's the fact that it's that it's that it's the fact that it's that it's that it's historical. Even more so the idea that historical. Even more so the idea that historical. Even more so the idea that you have Mark and Luke describing this, you have Mark and Luke describing this, you have Mark and Luke describing this, if you were going to make up the whole if you were going to make up the whole if you were going to make up the whole gospel accounts, pick Peter, Paul, gospel accounts, pick Peter, Paul, gospel accounts, pick Peter, Paul, Philip, pick somebody more notable. I Philip, pick somebody more notable. I Philip, pick somebody more notable. I see a lot of signs that point towards see a lot of signs that point towards see a lot of signs that point towards a sober a sober a sober historical account of of just describing historical account of of just describing historical account of of just describing things as they happened. things as they happened. things as they happened. Alex, I saw you perk up when Trent Alex, I saw you perk up when Trent Alex, I saw you perk up when Trent mentioned the the women witnesses mentioned the the women witnesses mentioned the the women witnesses argument. Did you have anything to say argument. Did you have anything to say argument. Did you have anything to say to that? So much. to that? So much. to that? So much. I'm actually surprised to hear this come I'm actually surprised to hear this come I'm actually surprised to hear this come up. I know that this is a common sort of up. I know that this is a common sort of up. I know that this is a common sort of apologetical motif, but to me it's it's apologetical motif, but to me it's it's apologetical motif, but to me it's it's it's clear as day, you know. Women it's clear as day, you know. Women it's clear as day, you know. Women discover the empty tomb, discover the empty tomb, discover the empty tomb, which means that, you know, it must be which means that, you know, it must be which means that, you know, it must be true because women's testimony wasn't true because women's testimony wasn't true because women's testimony wasn't worth that much, and so why would this worth that much, and so why would this worth that much, and so why would this be invented? There are a few things to be invented? There are a few things to be invented? There are a few things to say here. Firstly, say here. Firstly, say here. Firstly, who knew where the tomb was? who knew where the tomb was? who knew where the tomb was? The women. We're told that the disciples The women. We're told that the disciples The women. We're told that the disciples had fled at the crucifixion of Jesus. had fled at the crucifixion of Jesus. had fled at the crucifixion of Jesus. >> men along with them? Well, we'll get to >> men along with them? Well, we'll get to >> men along with them? Well, we'll get to that. May I mean, maybe they could have that. May I mean, maybe they could have that. May I mean, maybe they could have done, but we know that they weren't that done, but we know that they weren't that done, but we know that they weren't that we know that they weren't at the we know that they weren't at the we know that they weren't at the crucifixion, and we know that the the crucifixion, and we know that the the crucifixion, and we know that the the that they'd that they'd fled. And so, in that they'd that they'd fled. And so, in that they'd that they'd fled. And so, in keeping with the theme of the disciples keeping with the theme of the disciples keeping with the theme of the disciples fleeing afraid in their cowardice, they fleeing afraid in their cowardice, they fleeing afraid in their cowardice, they wouldn't even know where Jesus was wouldn't even know where Jesus was wouldn't even know where Jesus was buried. Of course it's going to be the buried. Of course it's going to be the buried. Of course it's going to be the women who who Like it's like a narrative women who who Like it's like a narrative women who who Like it's like a narrative If if the story said that Peter went to If if the story said that Peter went to If if the story said that Peter went to the tomb, the question would be, "Well, the tomb, the question would be, "Well, the tomb, the question would be, "Well, how did he find out?" Well, Peter does how did he find out?" Well, Peter does how did he find out?" Well, Peter does eventually go to the tomb. Why is that?

eventually go to the tomb. Why is that? eventually go to the tomb. Why is that? Because yes, women discover the empty Because yes, women discover the empty Because yes, women discover the empty tomb. They have no idea what's happened. tomb. They have no idea what's happened. tomb. They have no idea what's happened. And what's the first thing that they go And what's the first thing that they go And what's the first thing that they go and do? They go and get the men to come and do? They go and get the men to come and do? They go and get the men to come and verify it for us. and verify it for us. and verify it for us. Right? They run to the men and they say, Right? They run to the men and they say, Right? They run to the men and they say, "Oh, we don't know what's happened. "Oh, we don't know what's happened. "Oh, we don't know what's happened. There are these, you know, as as the There are these, you know, as as the There are these, you know, as as the early Christian early Christian early Christian critic Celsus says, there are these critic Celsus says, there are these critic Celsus says, there are these hysterical women and they they they hysterical women and they they they hysterical women and they they they don't know what they've seen, and they don't know what they've seen, and they don't know what they've seen, and they and they run to the disciples, and it's and they run to the disciples, and it's and they run to the disciples, and it's the disciples who come and verify it for the disciples who come and verify it for the disciples who come and verify it for them." So, I mean, there's an instant them." So, I mean, there's an instant them." So, I mean, there's an instant verification. Right? But like in other verification. Right? But like in other verification. Right? But like in other words, if this wasn't an apologetical words, if this wasn't an apologetical words, if this wasn't an apologetical motif, yeah, that that might it might be motif, yeah, that that might it might be motif, yeah, that that might it might be that that that that's that's why they had them go and that's that's why they had them go and that's that's why they had them go and check. check. check. >> But does that apply better to Matthew, >> But does that apply better to Matthew, >> But does that apply better to Matthew, Luke, and John than to that original Luke, and John than to that original Luke, and John than to that original kernel of the account in Mark? Oh, kernel of the account in Mark? Oh, kernel of the account in Mark? Oh, certainly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It certainly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It certainly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It certainly does it It's I mean, going and certainly does it It's I mean, going and certainly does it It's I mean, going and finding the men, of course it does. finding the men, of course it does. finding the men, of course it does. But like another thing to to point out But like another thing to to point out But like another thing to to point out is that like this might be a bit of a is that like this might be a bit of a is that like this might be a bit of a silly thing to say, but people often silly thing to say, but people often silly thing to say, but people often just sort of assume that ancient writers just sort of assume that ancient writers just sort of assume that ancient writers are stupider than we are. Like we are stupider than we are. Like we are stupider than we are. Like we sometimes think And by the way, I'm not sometimes think And by the way, I'm not sometimes think And by the way, I'm not saying that this is made up, but I'm saying that this is made up, but I'm saying that this is made up, but I'm saying if you want to argue that it's saying if you want to argue that it's saying if you want to argue that it's not, and you say, "Well, you know, they not, and you say, "Well, you know, they not, and you say, "Well, you know, they wouldn't do this." Like because isn't it wouldn't do this." Like because isn't it wouldn't do this." Like because isn't it so realistic that they'd have this so realistic that they'd have this so realistic that they'd have this feature? Does it make it all that more feature? Does it make it all that more feature? Does it make it all that more believable? You think ancient authors believable? You think ancient authors believable? You think ancient authors would have been clever enough to think would have been clever enough to think would have been clever enough to think of that themselves as well? You know, of that themselves as well? You know, of that themselves as well? You know, like it just seems to me, in other like it just seems to me, in other like it just seems to me, in other words, that like words, that like words, that like the reasons that we have for thinking the reasons that we have for thinking the reasons that we have for thinking that it might be historical are things that it might be historical are things that it might be historical are things which could have occurred to somebody which could have occurred to somebody which could have occurred to somebody who was trying to come up with it. But, who was trying to come up with it. But, who was trying to come up with it. But, I think it's clear as day that it would I think it's clear as day that it would I think it's clear as day that it would be the women who would discover the be the women who would discover the be the women who would discover the empty tomb, because they're the ones who empty tomb, because they're the ones who empty tomb, because they're the ones who knew where it was. They were the ones knew where it was. They were the ones knew where it was. They were the ones who were following Jesus throughout his who were following Jesus throughout his who were following Jesus throughout his passion. They were the ones who saw passion. They were the ones who saw passion. They were the ones who saw where he was buried. This is a very where he was buried. This is a very where he was buried. This is a very interesting critique from Alex here, interesting critique from Alex here, interesting critique from Alex here, basically flipping it on its head, basically flipping it on its head, basically flipping it on its head, because very often you hear that a because very often you hear that a because very often you hear that a woman's witness wasn't even, you know, woman's witness wasn't even, you know, woman's witness wasn't even, you know, valid in a court of law at the current valid in a court of law at the current valid in a court of law at the current time. So, it was mad that, basically, time. So, it was mad that, basically, time. So, it was mad that, basically, not only that the disciples believed the not only that the disciples believed the not only that the disciples believed the woman, but also that the gospel writers woman, but also that the gospel writers woman, but also that the gospel writers would have included that and not would have included that and not would have included that and not switched it to a man. But, Alex switched it to a man. But, Alex switched it to a man. But, Alex basically flips and says, "Well, isn't basically flips and says, "Well, isn't basically flips and says, "Well, isn't that an argument actually against what

that an argument actually against what that an argument actually against what you're saying?" So, you're saying?" So, you're saying?" So, we'll see we'll be interested to see we'll see we'll be interested to see we'll see we'll be interested to see what Trend kind of responds here. And as what Trend kind of responds here. And as what Trend kind of responds here. And as I say, the first thing they go and do is I say, the first thing they go and do is I say, the first thing they go and do is grab some men to go and terrify for grab some men to go and terrify for grab some men to go and terrify for them. So, I don't know if this is as them. So, I don't know if this is as them. So, I don't know if this is as sort of feminist a a story. sort of feminist a a story. sort of feminist a a story. >> And I suppose the sort of social >> And I suppose the sort of social >> And I suppose the sort of social function of women in the ancient world function of women in the ancient world function of women in the ancient world in association with mourning. I wondered in association with mourning. I wondered in association with mourning. I wondered what you what you what you >> I was also going to say, like, you know, >> I was also going to say, like, you know, >> I was also going to say, like, you know, who's anointing the bodies? Although, of who's anointing the bodies? Although, of who's anointing the bodies? Although, of course, in John's gospel, it's it's course, in John's gospel, it's it's course, in John's gospel, it's it's Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who sort of bring these oils and and sort of bring these oils and and sort of bring these oils and and investments to to the body. But, by the investments to to the body. But, by the investments to to the body. But, by the way, what's the first thing that Mary way, what's the first thing that Mary way, what's the first thing that Mary Magdalene thinks when she sees the empty Magdalene thinks when she sees the empty Magdalene thinks when she sees the empty tomb? She doesn't think, "Oh, gosh, tomb? She doesn't think, "Oh, gosh, tomb? She doesn't think, "Oh, gosh, remember when Jesus predicted that he remember when Jesus predicted that he remember when Jesus predicted that he was going to rise from the dead? That was going to rise from the dead? That was going to rise from the dead? That must be what's happened." They say she must be what's happened." They say she must be what's happened." They say she she says, "They've taken the Lord and we she says, "They've taken the Lord and we she says, "They've taken the Lord and we do not know where they've put him." Her do not know where they've put him." Her do not know where they've put him." Her first assumption is that the body has first assumption is that the body has first assumption is that the body has been taken. And not only that, but she been taken. And not only that, but she been taken. And not only that, but she says it's in John's gospel, after says it's in John's gospel, after says it's in John's gospel, after running back to the disciples, when in running back to the disciples, when in running back to the disciples, when in Luke's gospel, we're told that on the Luke's gospel, we're told that on the Luke's gospel, we're told that on the way back from the tomb, Jesus appears to way back from the tomb, Jesus appears to way back from the tomb, Jesus appears to her himself. If Jesus has just appeared her himself. If Jesus has just appeared her himself. If Jesus has just appeared to her and told her to go and tell the to her and told her to go and tell the to her and told her to go and tell the disciples, it'd be really weird for her disciples, it'd be really weird for her disciples, it'd be really weird for her to go to the disciples and say, "They've to go to the disciples and say, "They've to go to the disciples and say, "They've taken the Lord and we do not know where taken the Lord and we do not know where taken the Lord and we do not know where they've put him." That point at which, they've put him." That point at which, they've put him." That point at which, in Luke's gospel, Jesus says, "Touch my in Luke's gospel, Jesus says, "Touch my in Luke's gospel, Jesus says, "Touch my feet, you know." Like, it has all these feet, you know." Like, it has all these feet, you know." Like, it has all these sort of extra physicality uh bits. Can I sort of extra physicality uh bits. Can I sort of extra physicality uh bits. Can I also make the point that in Jewish also make the point that in Jewish also make the point that in Jewish tradition, actually, tending to the dead tradition, actually, tending to the dead tradition, actually, tending to the dead bodies was the women's jobs, as it was.

bodies was the women's jobs, as it was. bodies was the women's jobs, as it was. You could actually also make the You could actually also make the You could actually also make the argument, if it was presumed that a argument, if it was presumed that a argument, if it was presumed that a woman was would have been the one to woman was would have been the one to woman was would have been the one to basically wrap the garments around basically wrap the garments around basically wrap the garments around someone or take them from a tomb or someone or take them from a tomb or someone or take them from a tomb or anoint them with oils, etc. If it was anoint them with oils, etc. If it was anoint them with oils, etc. If it was not women doing that, you could argue, not women doing that, you could argue, not women doing that, you could argue, well, did that, you know, that you could well, did that, you know, that you could well, did that, you know, that you could say that would be more suspicious than say that would be more suspicious than say that would be more suspicious than the opposite. Um so, it's it's a really the opposite. Um so, it's it's a really the opposite. Um so, it's it's a really interesting point Alex puts in cuz often interesting point Alex puts in cuz often interesting point Alex puts in cuz often we so many Christians use this as we so many Christians use this as we so many Christians use this as apologetic tool, but you could he's made apologetic tool, but you could he's made apologetic tool, but you could he's made the argument if this wasn't the case, it the argument if this wasn't the case, it the argument if this wasn't the case, it would have been way more suspicious than would have been way more suspicious than would have been way more suspicious than the inverse. Look, I'm a Christian, but the inverse. Look, I'm a Christian, but the inverse. Look, I'm a Christian, but I I'll give credit where credit's due. I I'll give credit where credit's due. I I'll give credit where credit's due. This is a really good point I think Alex This is a really good point I think Alex This is a really good point I think Alex makes here. You respond to that that makes here. You respond to that that makes here. You respond to that that argument about the women, Trent. argument about the women, Trent. argument about the women, Trent. Right. So, I would be cautious in where Right. So, I would be cautious in where Right. So, I would be cautious in where Alex is going here when we're we're Alex is going here when we're we're Alex is going here when we're we're trying to sift through ancient documents trying to sift through ancient documents trying to sift through ancient documents and records. Uh what is historical, what and records. Uh what is historical, what and records. Uh what is historical, what is literary, what is trying to pull one is literary, what is trying to pull one is literary, what is trying to pull one over on us, was an apologetic motive. I over on us, was an apologetic motive. I over on us, was an apologetic motive. I would be worried about the clever forger would be worried about the clever forger would be worried about the clever forger thesis. thesis. thesis. This This idea that people will say and This This idea that people will say and This This idea that people will say and I and I've seen this before in debates I and I've seen this before in debates I and I've seen this before in debates about whether Jesus existed where you about whether Jesus existed where you about whether Jesus existed where you have on the far far extreme the people have on the far far extreme the people have on the far far extreme the people who say, "No, Jesus never existed." And who say, "No, Jesus never existed." And who say, "No, Jesus never existed." And anytime evidence is presented saying, anytime evidence is presented saying, anytime evidence is presented saying, "Well, this is really good evidence that "Well, this is really good evidence that "Well, this is really good evidence that there was a man named Jesus. We have there was a man named Jesus. We have there was a man named Jesus. We have Josephus, Tacitus." And it sounds just Josephus, Tacitus." And it sounds just Josephus, Tacitus." And it sounds just like them, da da da. The The like them, da da da. The The like them, da da da. The The recalcitrant, the intransigent mythicist recalcitrant, the intransigent mythicist recalcitrant, the intransigent mythicist will say, "Ah, but a a very clever will say, "Ah, but a a very clever will say, "Ah, but a a very clever Christian forger would make it sound Christian forger would make it sound Christian forger would make it sound just like Tacitus or just like Josephus.

just like Tacitus or just like Josephus. just like Tacitus or just like Josephus. And of course we'd expect it to sound And of course we'd expect it to sound And of course we'd expect it to sound just like them." But I'm like, "Oh, wait just like them." But I'm like, "Oh, wait just like them." But I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. So, if it doesn't sound like a minute. So, if it doesn't sound like a minute. So, if it doesn't sound like them, it's a forgery. But also, if it them, it's a forgery. But also, if it them, it's a forgery. But also, if it sounds like them, it's just a really sounds like them, it's just a really sounds like them, it's just a really really smart forgery." really smart forgery." really smart forgery." >> That is a really good point by see how, >> That is a really good point by see how, >> That is a really good point by see how, you know, you call it a bit both ways in you know, you call it a bit both ways in you know, you call it a bit both ways in the sense that it suits the narrative the sense that it suits the narrative the sense that it suits the narrative that it was women's who picked him up, that it was women's who picked him up, that it was women's who picked him up, but at the same time also if that was but at the same time also if that was but at the same time also if that was the opposite case, you could also make the opposite case, you could also make the opposite case, you could also make the similar argument just on the the similar argument just on the the similar argument just on the opposite end. And it is true. I think opposite end. And it is true. I think opposite end. And it is true. I think the truth of your heart going into these the truth of your heart going into these the truth of your heart going into these things really, really does matter. And I things really, really does matter. And I things really, really does matter. And I think Trent makes a really good point think Trent makes a really good point think Trent makes a really good point here. You know, people can do all what here. You know, people can do all what here. You know, people can do all what if well, what if endlessly. if well, what if endlessly. if well, what if endlessly. But would you do the exact same with any But would you do the exact same with any But would you do the exact same with any historical account? I think there's a historical account? I think there's a historical account? I think there's a famous philosopher who said, you know, famous philosopher who said, you know, famous philosopher who said, you know, extraordinary events in history need extraordinary events in history need extraordinary events in history need extraordinary evidence. extraordinary evidence. extraordinary evidence. But the question is, how much is enough? But the question is, how much is enough? But the question is, how much is enough? I just want to point out to people that I just want to point out to people that I just want to point out to people that when thinking about [snorts] forgery, when thinking about [snorts] forgery, when thinking about [snorts] forgery, people want to But I of course I don't people want to But I of course I don't people want to But I of course I don't think the story was forged. I just want think the story was forged. I just want think the story was forged. I just want to say that like the the the two points to say that like the the the two points to say that like the the the two points that were important there I think Trent that were important there I think Trent that were important there I think Trent with that the women were the ones who with that the women were the ones who with that the women were the ones who were following Jesus during the passion, were following Jesus during the passion, were following Jesus during the passion, and the women immediately go and get men and the women immediately go and get men and the women immediately go and get men to verify the facts for them.

to verify the facts for them. to verify the facts for them. Right. Uh so first then so we have to go Right. Uh so first then so we have to go Right. Uh so first then so we have to go back uh and my the comparison I was back uh and my the comparison I was back uh and my the comparison I was making was between an example in the making was between an example in the making was between an example in the Gospel of Peter of something that Gospel of Peter of something that Gospel of Peter of something that appears. Here's a mindset of somebody appears. Here's a mindset of somebody appears. Here's a mindset of somebody who is trying to add details just to who is trying to add details just to who is trying to add details just to support the account versus someone who support the account versus someone who support the account versus someone who appears to just be recording um appears to just be recording um appears to just be recording um recording the account itself. Uh when it recording the account itself. Uh when it recording the account itself. Uh when it comes to the women though like well of comes to the women though like well of comes to the women though like well of course women would would be there course women would would be there course women would would be there because they knew the location of the because they knew the location of the because they knew the location of the tomb. Well, I would say that Joseph of tomb. Well, I would say that Joseph of tomb. Well, I would say that Joseph of Arimathea knew the location and is Arimathea knew the location and is Arimathea knew the location and is described as a secret disciple of Jesus. described as a secret disciple of Jesus. described as a secret disciple of Jesus. And and I agree with Dale Allison. I And and I agree with Dale Allison. I And and I agree with Dale Allison. I think there's good evidence that this think there's good evidence that this think there's good evidence that this was not made up that someone to was not made up that someone to was not made up that someone to fictionalize an account of their beloved fictionalize an account of their beloved fictionalize an account of their beloved rabbi would pay him tribute by having rabbi would pay him tribute by having rabbi would pay him tribute by having him being buried of an honorable burial him being buried of an honorable burial him being buried of an honorable burial by friends and others. And it was not by friends and others. And it was not by friends and others. And it was not unheard of by the way for crucifixion unheard of by the way for crucifixion unheard of by the way for crucifixion victims to have burials. We have a victims to have burials. We have a victims to have burials. We have a first-century skeleton of a man named first-century skeleton of a man named first-century skeleton of a man named Yehohanan from a village called Giv'at Yehohanan from a village called Giv'at Yehohanan from a village called Giv'at Hamivtar, and he was a crucifixion Hamivtar, and he was a crucifixion Hamivtar, and he was a crucifixion victim and he's he was found in a tomb. victim and he's he was found in a tomb. victim and he's he was found in a tomb. You could also make the point that there You could also make the point that there You could also make the point that there was something unique about Jesus' death was something unique about Jesus' death was something unique about Jesus' death in the way it was done and the things he in the way it was done and the things he in the way it was done and the things he said obviously. So you could make the said obviously. So you could make the said obviously. So you could make the point, well, it would have also suited point, well, it would have also suited point, well, it would have also suited the narrative potentially for Nicodemus the narrative potentially for Nicodemus the narrative potentially for Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea to be the ones and Joseph of Arimathea to be the ones and Joseph of Arimathea to be the ones who this happened to. So I think Trent who this happened to. So I think Trent who this happened to. So I think Trent does make a a pretty solid point there.

does make a a pretty solid point there. does make a a pretty solid point there. The women itself you might say, well, The women itself you might say, well, The women itself you might say, well, look, even if they do see it, you know, look, even if they do see it, you know, look, even if they do see it, you know, it's confirmed by the men in the it's confirmed by the men in the it's confirmed by the men in the account, so it's not that big a deal. account, so it's not that big a deal. account, so it's not that big a deal. But then I would ask the question, you But then I would ask the question, you But then I would ask the question, you know, it's like okay, if he was making know, it's like okay, if he was making know, it's like okay, if he was making it up, then they would have that in it up, then they would have that in it up, then they would have that in their testimony, it's fine. But we also their testimony, it's fine. But we also their testimony, it's fine. But we also have to be careful to say if it did have to be careful to say if it did have to be careful to say if it did happen, what would we expect? Mhm. the happen, what would we expect? Mhm. the happen, what would we expect? Mhm. the women going to the tomb, not sure what women going to the tomb, not sure what women going to the tomb, not sure what they're going to do just because they they're going to do just because they they're going to do just because they want to wail and mourn, and they want to wail and mourn, and they want to wail and mourn, and they encounter that it's open and they see encounter that it's open and they see encounter that it's open and they see Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, what would we expect to happen? Well, what would we expect to happen? Well, what would we expect to happen? Well, we'd expect them to to go and tell we'd expect them to to go and tell we'd expect them to to go and tell others, and if you heard about this, you others, and if you heard about this, you others, and if you heard about this, you wouldn't expect the the the other male wouldn't expect the the the other male wouldn't expect the the the other male disciples to just do nothing. I I'd go disciples to just do nothing. I I'd go disciples to just do nothing. I I'd go check. You would. So, I So, I think it check. You would. So, I So, I think it check. You would. So, I So, I think it it fits. We always have to ask that it fits. We always have to ask that it fits. We always have to ask that question, question, question, what, you know, what would we expect if what, you know, what would we expect if what, you know, what would we expect if X happened? Does it conform to that? And X happened? Does it conform to that? And X happened? Does it conform to that? And it still goes back to just following the it still goes back to just following the it still goes back to just following the evidence where it goes, but I but I evidence where it goes, but I but I evidence where it goes, but I but I think, and I want to put this here cuz think, and I want to put this here cuz think, and I want to put this here cuz we're, you know, we're going to run out we're, you know, we're going to run out we're, you know, we're going to run out of time real soon. It's how it goes in of time real soon. It's how it goes in of time real soon. It's how it goes in this exchange, and I love it cuz we're this exchange, and I love it cuz we're this exchange, and I love it cuz we're having a lot of fun. having a lot of fun. having a lot of fun. I would just encourage everyone I would just encourage everyone I would just encourage everyone listening, look, we've got something listening, look, we've got something listening, look, we've got something very extraordinary here. We have We have very extraordinary here. We have We have very extraordinary here. We have We have very I think Alex and I both agree, it's very I think Alex and I both agree, it's very I think Alex and I both agree, it's very, very clear Jesus did die.

very, very clear Jesus did die. very, very clear Jesus did die. He existed. He died. He existed. He died. He existed. He died. >> Yep. And then Well, I guess this is how >> Yep. And then Well, I guess this is how >> Yep. And then Well, I guess this is how it works, Alex. You can see if I'm right it works, Alex. You can see if I'm right it works, Alex. You can see if I'm right about this. It's like we close in on the about this. It's like we close in on the about this. It's like we close in on the resurrection event from two directions, resurrection event from two directions, resurrection event from two directions, very strong evidence, and it moves very strong evidence, and it moves very strong evidence, and it moves towards this thing in the middle we're towards this thing in the middle we're towards this thing in the middle we're trying to figure out. So, it's like trying to figure out. So, it's like trying to figure out. So, it's like Jesus died, undeniable. Jesus died, undeniable. Jesus died, undeniable. There's within a few years, we have There's within a few years, we have There's within a few years, we have people proclaiming he had risen bodily people proclaiming he had risen bodily people proclaiming he had risen bodily from the dead. So, now it's like we're from the dead. So, now it's like we're from the dead. So, now it's like we're trying to get back trying to get back trying to get back to that that Easter Sunday morning and to that that Easter Sunday morning and to that that Easter Sunday morning and trying to figure out some I think trying to figure out some I think trying to figure out some I think everyone can agree something happened. everyone can agree something happened. everyone can agree something happened. And I think it's up to everyone should And I think it's up to everyone should And I think it's up to everyone should really look into this well, the data, to really look into this well, the data, to really look into this well, the data, to put forward put forward put forward what explains that happened. And I think what explains that happened. And I think what explains that happened. And I think resurrection, it does explain all the resurrection, it does explain all the resurrection, it does explain all the data without having to compress or force data without having to compress or force data without having to compress or force it really, whereas other explanations it really, whereas other explanations it really, whereas other explanations tend to have to bring in more ad hoc tend to have to bring in more ad hoc tend to have to bring in more ad hoc elements. Mhm. Alex, I'm really elements. Mhm. Alex, I'm really elements. Mhm. Alex, I'm really interested to kind of take stock, and I interested to kind of take stock, and I interested to kind of take stock, and I mean, presumably there are a number of mean, presumably there are a number of mean, presumably there are a number of facts here that uh scholars and facts here that uh scholars and facts here that uh scholars and historians discuss. You know, one of historians discuss. You know, one of historians discuss. You know, one of them would be the crucifixion. I think them would be the crucifixion. I think them would be the crucifixion. I think you'd be on board with that. you'd be on board with that. you'd be on board with that. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. We have the empty tomb. It seems like We have the empty tomb. It seems like We have the empty tomb. It seems like you might be agnostic about the empty you might be agnostic about the empty you might be agnostic about the empty tomb. And then the appearances, tomb. And then the appearances, tomb. And then the appearances, you you think that there were you you think that there were you you think that there were appearances of Jesus in the sense of appearances of Jesus in the sense of appearances of Jesus in the sense of people had visions, hallucinations, or people had visions, hallucinations, or people had visions, hallucinations, or >> I'm do you stand on this? I'm I'm saying >> I'm do you stand on this? I'm I'm saying >> I'm do you stand on this? I'm I'm saying that there are sort of levels of that there are sort of levels of that there are sort of levels of skepticism. Like I I have sort of I skepticism. Like I I have sort of I skepticism. Like I I have sort of I there are like doors that need to sort there are like doors that need to sort there are like doors that need to sort of be broken open, right? And And as you of be broken open, right? And And as you of be broken open, right? And And as you said, it sort of goes in that order.

said, it sort of goes in that order. said, it sort of goes in that order. It's like, was there a man called Jesus? It's like, was there a man called Jesus? It's like, was there a man called Jesus? Yes. Okay, what's next? He was Yes. Okay, what's next? He was Yes. Okay, what's next? He was crucified. Okay, yes. What's next? He crucified. Okay, yes. What's next? He crucified. Okay, yes. What's next? He was laid in the tomb. Okay, maybe. was laid in the tomb. Okay, maybe. was laid in the tomb. Okay, maybe. What's next? And then we sort of keep What's next? And then we sort of keep What's next? And then we sort of keep going. Trent said earlier at the very going. Trent said earlier at the very going. Trent said earlier at the very beginning of this debate, he said, you beginning of this debate, he said, you beginning of this debate, he said, you know, the evidence know, the evidence know, the evidence that Jesus was alive after his death is that Jesus was alive after his death is that Jesus was alive after his death is as good as the evidence that he was as good as the evidence that he was as good as the evidence that he was alive before his death. I don't know if alive before his death. I don't know if alive before his death. I don't know if if if that was if that's what you if if that was if that's what you if if that was if that's what you believe or if it just sort of came out believe or if it just sort of came out believe or if it just sort of came out that way. that way. that way. >> well, >> well, >> well, I think I meant to say that there are I think I meant to say that there are I think I meant to say that there are similar kinds of ways to verify that. similar kinds of ways to verify that. similar kinds of ways to verify that. Just you could show someone's alive by Just you could show someone's alive by Just you could show someone's alive by people saying we saw him. people saying we saw him. people saying we saw him. >> But I just don't think that's I just >> But I just don't think that's I just >> But I just don't think that's I just don't think it's true because of course don't think it's true because of course don't think it's true because of course the one of the reasons why we're so the one of the reasons why we're so the one of the reasons why we're so certain of Jesus' existence is certain of Jesus' existence is certain of Jesus' existence is relatively speaking for the ancient relatively speaking for the ancient relatively speaking for the ancient world a wealth of extra-biblical sources world a wealth of extra-biblical sources world a wealth of extra-biblical sources by supporters, by opponents, just by supporters, by opponents, just by supporters, by opponents, just referencing the existence of this referencing the existence of this referencing the existence of this person. Of course, we don't have any person. Of course, we don't have any person. Of course, we don't have any like references to appearances to Jesus like references to appearances to Jesus like references to appearances to Jesus after his death outside of what could be after his death outside of what could be after his death outside of what could be apologetical material, but certainly is apologetical material, but certainly is apologetical material, but certainly is material of his supporters, including material of his supporters, including material of his supporters, including some events which you might suspect have some events which you might suspect have some events which you might suspect have some attention drawn to them elsewhere, some attention drawn to them elsewhere, some attention drawn to them elsewhere, such as the appearance of the 500 and such as the appearance of the 500 and such as the appearance of the 500 and Paul. Paul. Paul. >> Well, it would be it would be very hard >> Well, it would be it would be very hard >> Well, it would be it would be very hard to find non-Christian testimony of a to find non-Christian testimony of a to find non-Christian testimony of a Christian fact like the resurrection Christian fact like the resurrection Christian fact like the resurrection because if one were if one were because if one were if one were because if one were if one were convicted of that fact convicted of that fact convicted of that fact >> just looking for that. I'm looking for >> just looking for that. I'm looking for >> just looking for that. I'm looking for So, for example, we in Jesus' sort of So, for example, we in Jesus' sort of So, for example, we in Jesus' sort of lifetime, we have sort of people who lifetime, we have sort of people who lifetime, we have sort of people who believe You could have an extra-biblical believe You could have an extra-biblical believe You could have an extra-biblical source that people believe 500 people source that people believe 500 people source that people believe 500 people had had seen Jesus. You could have an had had seen Jesus. You could have an had had seen Jesus. You could have an extra-biblical source that says 500 extra-biblical source that says 500 extra-biblical source that says 500 people claimed to see Jesus. In fact, people claimed to see Jesus. In fact, people claimed to see Jesus. In fact, even if we had if if we discovered a even if we had if if we discovered a even if we had if if we discovered a historical source that just said that historical source that just said that historical source that just said that just corroborated the 500, wasn't an just corroborated the 500, wasn't an just corroborated the 500, wasn't an eyewitness testimony, but just said, eyewitness testimony, but just said, eyewitness testimony, but just said, "And 500 people and here were some of "And 500 people and here were some of "And 500 people and here were some of their names and here's where it occurred

their names and here's where it occurred their names and here's where it occurred claimed to see Jesus." I would see that claimed to see Jesus." I would see that claimed to see Jesus." I would see that as incredible evidence to the as incredible evidence to the as incredible evidence to the resurrection. Not because it needs to be resurrection. Not because it needs to be resurrection. Not because it needs to be something that an opponent couldn't have something that an opponent couldn't have something that an opponent couldn't have written, written, written, but just because it would be something but just because it would be something but just because it would be something that's like corroborating. It shows that that's like corroborating. It shows that that's like corroborating. It shows that there is an event which was there is an event which was there is an event which was known to the people. known to the people. known to the people. >> I I don't know, Alex. I think you you >> I I don't know, Alex. I think you you >> I I don't know, Alex. I think you you might just say well, Tacitus or someone might just say well, Tacitus or someone might just say well, Tacitus or someone else just got this from someone who read else just got this from someone who read else just got this from someone who read Paul. And so we we you know, you might Paul. And so we we you know, you might Paul. And so we we you know, you might there might be questions about whether there might be questions about whether there might be questions about whether it's independently attested. But the 500 it's independently attested. But the 500 it's independently attested. But the 500 by the way, the 500 I would say, you by the way, the 500 I would say, you by the way, the 500 I would say, you know, well, you know, this is a a know, well, you know, this is a a know, well, you know, this is a a mysterious thing. I think what makes a mysterious thing. I think what makes a mysterious thing. I think what makes a lot of sense of it is in Matthew 28 Mhm. lot of sense of it is in Matthew 28 Mhm. lot of sense of it is in Matthew 28 Mhm. there is that's where we talk about there is that's where we talk about there is that's where we talk about those who doubted in the appearance on those who doubted in the appearance on those who doubted in the appearance on the mountain or the hilltop of Galilee. the mountain or the hilltop of Galilee. the mountain or the hilltop of Galilee. I think it very well could be because I think it very well could be because I think it very well could be because there is the there is the there is the the description of talking about the you the description of talking about the you the description of talking about the you know, might go and appear to my brothers know, might go and appear to my brothers know, might go and appear to my brothers and other you know, those you know, and other you know, those you know, and other you know, those you know, inscribed in Mark and in Matthew. And we inscribed in Mark and in Matthew. And we inscribed in Mark and in Matthew. And we have the fulfillment there and that have the fulfillment there and that have the fulfillment there and that would make sense if there were like would make sense if there were like would make sense if there were like especially if you had like the sermon on especially if you had like the sermon on especially if you had like the sermon on the mount, right? You're on a mount. the mount, right? You're on a mount. the mount, right? You're on a mount. That's how hundreds of people can hear That's how hundreds of people can hear That's how hundreds of people can hear you in the ancient world when you're you in the ancient world when you're you in the ancient world when you're talking to them. I've been to that area talking to them. I've been to that area talking to them. I've been to that area in Galilee myself. That that would make in Galilee myself. That that would make in Galilee myself. That that would make sense say, okay, so we have a a large sense say, okay, so we have a a large sense say, okay, so we have a a large enough area for someone to see someone enough area for someone to see someone enough area for someone to see someone like that. And that would explain if you like that. And that would explain if you like that. And that would explain if you have 500 people, those who didn't know have 500 people, those who didn't know have 500 people, those who didn't know Jesus as well, those to be the doubters Jesus as well, those to be the doubters Jesus as well, those to be the doubters versus those who knew him very well.

versus those who knew him very well. versus those who knew him very well. >> The only point it also goes back to the >> The only point it also goes back to the >> The only point it also goes back to the point and this is I did a video on it point and this is I did a video on it point and this is I did a video on it about Mormonism and Alex's case about Mormonism and Alex's case about Mormonism and Alex's case basically against the eyewitnesses cuz basically against the eyewitnesses cuz basically against the eyewitnesses cuz you often hear people like Lee Strobel you often hear people like Lee Strobel you often hear people like Lee Strobel or John Lennox speak about the 500. I or John Lennox speak about the 500. I or John Lennox speak about the 500. I think it's in Corinthians where Paul think it's in Corinthians where Paul think it's in Corinthians where Paul speaks about, you know, 500 people saw speaks about, you know, 500 people saw speaks about, you know, 500 people saw him, but then it's like, well, who saw him, but then it's like, well, who saw him, but then it's like, well, who saw him? You know, where was this etc. Um him? You know, where was this etc. Um him? You know, where was this etc. Um and we don't have any other reference to and we don't have any other reference to and we don't have any other reference to it here. it here. it here. And Alex makes the point and I did do a And Alex makes the point and I did do a And Alex makes the point and I did do a video on this. Basically, would we have video on this. Basically, would we have video on this. Basically, would we have the exact same eyewitness validity to the exact same eyewitness validity to the exact same eyewitness validity to other things? Because would we do the other things? Because would we do the other things? Because would we do the same with Muhammad? Would we do the same with Muhammad? Would we do the same with Muhammad? Would we do the same, let's say, with Joseph Smith? same, let's say, with Joseph Smith? same, let's say, with Joseph Smith? Would we Would we do the same with the Would we Would we do the same with the Would we Would we do the same with the multiple people who saw the plates? multiple people who saw the plates? multiple people who saw the plates? Would we You know, we have to be Would we You know, we have to be Would we You know, we have to be intellectually honest. So if we're going intellectually honest. So if we're going intellectually honest. So if we're going to use one letter for a Paul about 500 to use one letter for a Paul about 500 to use one letter for a Paul about 500 eyewitnesses, are we being eyewitnesses, are we being eyewitnesses, are we being intellectually honest? And I think this intellectually honest? And I think this intellectually honest? And I think this it always goes back to, you know, the it always goes back to, you know, the it always goes back to, you know, the truth will set you free. We've got to be truth will set you free. We've got to be truth will set you free. We've got to be honest and I I always my my ears go up. honest and I I always my my ears go up. honest and I I always my my ears go up. My radars go up, if you want to call it My radars go up, if you want to call it My radars go up, if you want to call it that, when I hear people use this as an that, when I hear people use this as an that, when I hear people use this as an apologetic tool, the 500 that saw Jesus.

apologetic tool, the 500 that saw Jesus. apologetic tool, the 500 that saw Jesus. Look, I think it could have happened Look, I think it could have happened Look, I think it could have happened 100% 100% 100% but I also I'm not going to stake my but I also I'm not going to stake my but I also I'm not going to stake my weight on it or even use it to defend weight on it or even use it to defend weight on it or even use it to defend that I think that I think that I think this really did happen and Jesus really this really did happen and Jesus really this really did happen and Jesus really did rise from the dead cuz I really do did rise from the dead cuz I really do did rise from the dead cuz I really do believe that, but I don't think that is believe that, but I don't think that is believe that, but I don't think that is a good argument at all, a good argument at all, a good argument at all, to be honest, because I would not do the to be honest, because I would not do the to be honest, because I would not do the same with Mormonism, I would not do the same with Mormonism, I would not do the same with Mormonism, I would not do the same with Islam, Hinduism, you know, I same with Islam, Hinduism, you know, I same with Islam, Hinduism, you know, I wouldn't do the same with all these wouldn't do the same with all these wouldn't do the same with all these other faiths, so I'm not going to do it other faiths, so I'm not going to do it other faiths, so I'm not going to do it Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. >> Christianity. >> Christianity. >> Christianity. making is that I I don't know if I would making is that I I don't know if I would making is that I I don't know if I would say that about that evidence. I have no say that about that evidence. I have no say that about that evidence. I have no idea, but what I'm saying is that when idea, but what I'm saying is that when idea, but what I'm saying is that when you say that the yeah, we have just as you say that the yeah, we have just as you say that the yeah, we have just as good reasons to think that he was alive good reasons to think that he was alive good reasons to think that he was alive before the crucifixion as after, I just before the crucifixion as after, I just before the crucifixion as after, I just don't think that's true. We might have don't think that's true. We might have don't think that's true. We might have just as good sort of just as good sort of just as good sort of uh uh uh testimony from from like the Gospels, testimony from from like the Gospels, testimony from from like the Gospels, maybe, but the thing that makes the maybe, but the thing that makes the maybe, but the thing that makes the historical Jesus case so strong and historical Jesus case so strong and historical Jesus case so strong and undeniable is the extra-biblical undeniable is the extra-biblical undeniable is the extra-biblical material. You don't have any of that for material. You don't have any of that for material. You don't have any of that for the post-resurrection appearances. No, the post-resurrection appearances. No, the post-resurrection appearances. No, because I I would I would still find the because I I would I would still find the because I I would I would still find the evidence from the Gospels and Paul's evidence from the Gospels and Paul's evidence from the Gospels and Paul's letters to Jesus existing to be enough, letters to Jesus existing to be enough, letters to Jesus existing to be enough, but for me it's like, okay, but for me it's like, okay, but for me it's like, okay, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, it if Jesus did not rise from the dead, it if Jesus did not rise from the dead, it becomes much more difficult to explain becomes much more difficult to explain becomes much more difficult to explain why James who didn't believe converted, why James who didn't believe converted, why James who didn't believe converted, why And it's also important to add when why And it's also important to add when why And it's also important to add when the the fact that there aren't the the fact that there aren't the the fact that there aren't extra-biblical sources shown his extra-biblical sources shown his extra-biblical sources shown his resurrection or people seeing him. Now, resurrection or people seeing him. Now, resurrection or people seeing him. Now, I haven't looked too much into that, so I haven't looked too much into that, so I haven't looked too much into that, so I'm going to take what Trent here says I'm going to take what Trent here says I'm going to take what Trent here says and Alex at face value cuz I haven't and Alex at face value cuz I haven't and Alex at face value cuz I haven't properly studied this stuff and done properly studied this stuff and done properly studied this stuff and done enough research or my own time into enough research or my own time into enough research or my own time into this, but I will make the point that this, but I will make the point that this, but I will make the point that basically, you know, early Christians, basically, you know, early Christians, basically, you know, early Christians, well, whatever you want to call it, the well, whatever you want to call it, the well, whatever you want to call it, the way, were preaching in synagogues and way, were preaching in synagogues and way, were preaching in synagogues and then were banned from it and they were then were banned from it and they were then were banned from it and they were viewed as like heretical and it's a fair viewed as like heretical and it's a fair viewed as like heretical and it's a fair point to point out that people wouldn't

point to point out that people wouldn't point to point out that people wouldn't have wanted to risk writing down stuff have wanted to risk writing down stuff have wanted to risk writing down stuff around seeing Jesus. I think that's a around seeing Jesus. I think that's a around seeing Jesus. I think that's a it's a very fair point I think Trent's it's a very fair point I think Trent's it's a very fair point I think Trent's making there. Like you wouldn't want to. making there. Like you wouldn't want to. making there. Like you wouldn't want to. You just wouldn't, really. You just wouldn't, really. You just wouldn't, really. Paul who was a persecutor converted and Paul who was a persecutor converted and Paul who was a persecutor converted and why all of these scared and frightened why all of these scared and frightened why all of these scared and frightened apostles boldly proclaim this truth. Uh apostles boldly proclaim this truth. Uh apostles boldly proclaim this truth. Uh I I think it it fulfills that I I think it it fulfills that I I think it it fulfills that explanatory data very well. explanatory data very well. explanatory data very well. >> I I I understand what you're saying, >> I I I understand what you're saying, >> I I I understand what you're saying, Trent. I'm not saying that you shouldn't Trent. I'm not saying that you shouldn't Trent. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have enough reason to believe in the have enough reason to believe in the have enough reason to believe in the resurrection. I'm saying specifically resurrection. I'm saying specifically resurrection. I'm saying specifically the claim that you have as much good the claim that you have as much good the claim that you have as much good reason to believe that Jesus was alive reason to believe that Jesus was alive reason to believe that Jesus was alive before the crucifixion as afterwards. before the crucifixion as afterwards. before the crucifixion as afterwards. Sure. Hey, I'm willing to I'm willing to Sure. Hey, I'm willing to I'm willing to Sure. Hey, I'm willing to I'm willing to trade I'm willing to trade that I'm trade I'm willing to trade that I'm trade I'm willing to trade that I'm willing to trade that one for it's willing to trade that one for it's willing to trade that one for it's you're reasonable to believe in the you're reasonable to believe in the you're reasonable to believe in the resurrection. I'm willing to make a resurrection. I'm willing to make a resurrection. I'm willing to make a trade I'll make a trade on that. trade I'll make a trade on that. trade I'll make a trade on that. >> Secondly, I find it really important >> Secondly, I find it really important >> Secondly, I find it really important when people talk about like the when people talk about like the when people talk about like the persecution of the apostles. persecution of the apostles. persecution of the apostles. Um you kind of get this merging between Um you kind of get this merging between Um you kind of get this merging between like people like Peter and people like like people like Peter and people like like people like Peter and people like Paul, you know? Like earlier you were Paul, you know? Like earlier you were Paul, you know? Like earlier you were talking about uh talking about uh talking about uh how, you know, the the how, you know, the the how, you know, the the persecution of the apostles is clear. If persecution of the apostles is clear. If persecution of the apostles is clear. If you look at Paul's letters, he talks you look at Paul's letters, he talks you look at Paul's letters, he talks very clearly about the persecutions he very clearly about the persecutions he very clearly about the persecutions he he underwent. Certainly so, but remember he underwent. Certainly so, but remember he underwent. Certainly so, but remember what Paul saw. Remember the nature of what Paul saw. Remember the nature of what Paul saw. Remember the nature of Paul's experience.

Paul's experience. Paul's experience. It's a it's a flash of light. Paul did It's a it's a flash of light. Paul did It's a it's a flash of light. Paul did not meet the bodily resurrected Jesus. not meet the bodily resurrected Jesus. not meet the bodily resurrected Jesus. And that's the claim that we're And that's the claim that we're And that's the claim that we're discussing, whether Jesus bodily discussing, whether Jesus bodily discussing, whether Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead. You would you resurrected from the dead. You would you resurrected from the dead. You would you you you I don't want to say admit, you you you I don't want to say admit, you you you I don't want to say admit, you just assert as well as anyone else just assert as well as anyone else just assert as well as anyone else could, that people can happily die for could, that people can happily die for could, that people can happily die for things that they think are true, but things that they think are true, but things that they think are true, but didn't see themselves. The whole point didn't see themselves. The whole point didn't see themselves. The whole point is that they need to have seen it is that they need to have seen it is that they need to have seen it themselves, and Paul did not see a themselves, and Paul did not see a themselves, and Paul did not see a bodily resurrected uh Jesus. The I mean, bodily resurrected uh Jesus. The I mean, bodily resurrected uh Jesus. The I mean, what's the uh who's the earliest martyr? what's the uh who's the earliest martyr? what's the uh who's the earliest martyr? Who's the earliest Christian martyr? I Who's the earliest Christian martyr? I Who's the earliest Christian martyr? I mean, mean, mean, Well, probably probably Well, probably probably Well, probably probably probably probably probably uh Stephen would be the first martyr, uh Stephen would be the first martyr, uh Stephen would be the first martyr, and then James' description in Acts and then James' description in Acts and then James' description in Acts chapter 12. chapter 12. chapter 12. >> okay? And what what is Stephen martyred >> okay? And what what is Stephen martyred >> okay? And what what is Stephen martyred for? for? for? Having a vision in the sky. He looks up Having a vision in the sky. He looks up Having a vision in the sky. He looks up and he sees Jesus stood or sat at the and he sees Jesus stood or sat at the and he sees Jesus stood or sat at the right hand of uh of of the Father, and right hand of uh of of the Father, and right hand of uh of of the Father, and he's stoned to death for it. The like he's stoned to death for it. The like he's stoned to death for it. The like the the earliest martyrdom story we have the the earliest martyrdom story we have the the earliest martyrdom story we have is of a vision. The most obvious is of a vision. The most obvious is of a vision. The most obvious persecution that we have first first persecution that we have first first persecution that we have first first hand is that of Paul, whose experience hand is that of Paul, whose experience hand is that of Paul, whose experience was that of a vision. The idea of the was that of a vision. The idea of the was that of a vision. The idea of the physical resurrection of Jesus, even if physical resurrection of Jesus, even if physical resurrection of Jesus, even if we agree that Peter was persecuted, we we agree that Peter was persecuted, we we agree that Peter was persecuted, we don't know what it is that Peter saw. don't know what it is that Peter saw. don't know what it is that Peter saw. Yeah, we have some like second, third Yeah, we have some like second, third Yeah, we have some like second, third hand accounts from the Gospels, that's hand accounts from the Gospels, that's hand accounts from the Gospels, that's if you believe the traditional if you believe the traditional if you believe the traditional authorship. But that's not the same authorship. But that's not the same authorship. But that's not the same thing as saying that an eye that we know thing as saying that an eye that we know thing as saying that an eye that we know for a fact that an eyewitness to a for a fact that an eyewitness to a for a fact that an eyewitness to a specific event was persecuted for belief specific event was persecuted for belief specific event was persecuted for belief in that event. Even with James, we We in that event. Even with James, we We in that event. Even with James, we We know why he was put to death. Surely I know why he was put to death. Surely I know why he was put to death. Surely I mean, the most plausible conclusion is mean, the most plausible conclusion is mean, the most plausible conclusion is that he was preaching Christianity.

that he was preaching Christianity. that he was preaching Christianity. Herod says that this was pleasing to the Herod says that this was pleasing to the Herod says that this was pleasing to the Jews when he when he uh when he kills Jews when he when he uh when he kills Jews when he when he uh when he kills James. So, we just don't know the James. So, we just don't know the James. So, we just don't know the details, at least not And can I also details, at least not And can I also details, at least not And can I also make the point that even Shawn McDowell, make the point that even Shawn McDowell, make the point that even Shawn McDowell, who is a you know, big Christian who is a you know, big Christian who is a you know, big Christian apologist, who is an evangelist himself, apologist, who is an evangelist himself, apologist, who is an evangelist himself, you know, he did his doctoral work on you know, he did his doctoral work on you know, he did his doctoral work on the apostles dying, and he actually the apostles dying, and he actually the apostles dying, and he actually makes the point that apart from, I makes the point that apart from, I makes the point that apart from, I think, three, we're not actually that think, three, we're not actually that think, three, we're not actually that certain that they did. He believes that certain that they did. He believes that certain that they did. He believes that there would have been emotional turmoil, there would have been emotional turmoil, there would have been emotional turmoil, but the things that are described, he but the things that are described, he but the things that are described, he actually makes his work, he actually actually makes his work, he actually actually makes his work, he actually doesn't believe that was the case. Now, doesn't believe that was the case. Now, doesn't believe that was the case. Now, that's not to say it didn't happen, but that's not to say it didn't happen, but that's not to say it didn't happen, but if you are arguing from a historical if you are arguing from a historical if you are arguing from a historical evidential basis, you have to be honest evidential basis, you have to be honest evidential basis, you have to be honest and say, "How much do we know of and say, "How much do we know of and say, "How much do we know of martyrdom?" You know, we never write martyrdom?" You know, we never write martyrdom?" You know, we never write history. There's been endless Christian history. There's been endless Christian history. There's been endless Christian martyrs, but very early on with the martyrs, but very early on with the martyrs, but very early on with the apostles, how many of them actually died apostles, how many of them actually died apostles, how many of them actually died for what they believed? And also, what for what they believed? And also, what for what they believed? And also, what did they believe? Did they believe they did they believe? Did they believe they did they believe? Did they believe they met Jesus? And this is a really met Jesus? And this is a really met Jesus? And this is a really fascinating point I think Alex makes fascinating point I think Alex makes fascinating point I think Alex makes here about visions, they actually seeing here about visions, they actually seeing here about visions, they actually seeing the bodily resurrection, because and the the bodily resurrection, because and the the bodily resurrection, because and the reason this matters so much is if you reason this matters so much is if you reason this matters so much is if you look at people who suffered traumatic look at people who suffered traumatic look at people who suffered traumatic death for you, or people who just die, death for you, or people who just die, death for you, or people who just die, who relatives who they love immensely, who relatives who they love immensely, who relatives who they love immensely, who obviously disciples did love Jesus who obviously disciples did love Jesus who obviously disciples did love Jesus immensely, you know, it's very common immensely, you know, it's very common immensely, you know, it's very common that people do have visions of dead dead that people do have visions of dead dead that people do have visions of dead dead relatives, dead loved ones. Like, Bot relatives, dead loved ones. Like, Bot relatives, dead loved ones. Like, Bot Almond cited a crazy study, which he was Almond cited a crazy study, which he was Almond cited a crazy study, which he was like, one in four people whose relatives like, one in four people whose relatives like, one in four people whose relatives die, they actually say they saw them, die, they actually say they saw them, die, they actually say they saw them, and they thought they actually saw them and they thought they actually saw them and they thought they actually saw them and spoke to them. And that is a bonkers and spoke to them. And that is a bonkers and spoke to them. And that is a bonkers stat, and even if let's say 1% of them stat, and even if let's say 1% of them stat, and even if let's say 1% of them are true, you know, it's it's a very

are true, you know, it's it's a very are true, you know, it's it's a very interesting point. I do really believe interesting point. I do really believe interesting point. I do really believe that Jesus did speak and meet to people, that Jesus did speak and meet to people, that Jesus did speak and meet to people, but I'm going to This is a good point by but I'm going to This is a good point by but I'm going to This is a good point by Alex, and um I think it's something to Alex, and um I think it's something to Alex, and um I think it's something to really think about, because Paul is our really think about, because Paul is our really think about, because Paul is our earliest source, you know, post-Jesus, earliest source, you know, post-Jesus, earliest source, you know, post-Jesus, and it's a it's a good point to make and it's a it's a good point to make and it's a it's a good point to make that it was a visionary experience. And that it was a visionary experience. And that it was a visionary experience. And well, that also does not degrade his well, that also does not degrade his well, that also does not degrade his visionary experience, cuz this was a visionary experience, cuz this was a visionary experience, cuz this was a bloke that was going around murdering bloke that was going around murdering bloke that was going around murdering Christians. He hated him. You know, he Christians. He hated him. You know, he Christians. He hated him. You know, he changed his name from Saul to Paul. So, changed his name from Saul to Paul. So, changed his name from Saul to Paul. So, it still does have weight, but I do it still does have weight, but I do it still does have weight, but I do think this is a great point here from think this is a great point here from think this is a great point here from Alex. Strongly disagree with this Alex. Strongly disagree with this Alex. Strongly disagree with this statement. statement. statement. >> says that he was he was stoned to death >> says that he was he was stoned to death >> says that he was he was stoned to death for being a lawbreaker, and he for being a lawbreaker, and he for being a lawbreaker, and he specifically references Josephus as the specifically references Josephus as the specifically references Josephus as the brother of of Christ, the one who was brother of of Christ, the one who was brother of of Christ, the one who was called Christ. called Christ. called Christ. >> Yes, I understand that. But, you know, >> Yes, I understand that. But, you know, >> Yes, I understand that. But, you know, we we don't we just don't know the we we don't we just don't know the we we don't we just don't know the details of the reasons behind the details of the reasons behind the details of the reasons behind the martyrdom of of this apostle, I think. martyrdom of of this apostle, I think. martyrdom of of this apostle, I think. Although, look, this is maybe a question Although, look, this is maybe a question Although, look, this is maybe a question for Sean McDowell. I just want to say for Sean McDowell. I just want to say for Sean McDowell. I just want to say that that that on the point of persecution, we need to on the point of persecution, we need to on the point of persecution, we need to be very careful about who we're talking be very careful about who we're talking be very careful about who we're talking about and keep it separate. Let's not about and keep it separate. Let's not about and keep it separate. Let's not say, "Look, we know that the apostles say, "Look, we know that the apostles say, "Look, we know that the apostles were persecuted because look at the were persecuted because look at the were persecuted because look at the letters of Paul." And we know that Paul letters of Paul." And we know that Paul letters of Paul." And we know that Paul was persecuted was persecuted was persecuted >> not it's not just that. We also we also >> not it's not just that. We also we also >> not it's not just that. We also we also have the testimony in the book of Acts, have the testimony in the book of Acts, have the testimony in the book of Acts, and we also have Tacitus talking about and we also have Tacitus talking about and we also have Tacitus talking about the Neronian persecution.

the Neronian persecution. the Neronian persecution. >> not first hand. >> not first hand. >> not first hand. Right? You you understand what I'm Right? You you understand what I'm Right? You you understand what I'm saying, is it It doesn't necessarily saying, is it It doesn't necessarily saying, is it It doesn't necessarily have to be first hand cuz I think have to be first hand cuz I think have to be first hand cuz I think there's good evidence that Luke was a there's good evidence that Luke was a there's good evidence that Luke was a traveling companion of Paul and that traveling companion of Paul and that traveling companion of Paul and that he's a good historian. he's a good historian. he's a good historian. >> Is that because of the we passages? >> Is that because of the we passages? >> Is that because of the we passages? I think I think that's one element to I think I think that's one element to I think I think that's one element to it, and I've read the critiques of it, and I've read the critiques of it, and I've read the critiques of people trying to say that's some kind of people trying to say that's some kind of people trying to say that's some kind of sea-going narrative motive, and sea-going narrative motive, and sea-going narrative motive, and >> I wasn't going to go down that route. I >> I wasn't going to go down that route. I >> I wasn't going to go down that route. I was just going to say that do you was just going to say that do you was just going to say that do you therefore reject the traditional therefore reject the traditional therefore reject the traditional authorship of John's gospel because near authorship of John's gospel because near authorship of John's gospel because near the end of John's gospel in John chapter the end of John's gospel in John chapter the end of John's gospel in John chapter 20, uh the beloved disciple is referred 20, uh the beloved disciple is referred 20, uh the beloved disciple is referred to seeing something, and the author of to seeing something, and the author of to seeing something, and the author of John's gospel says, "And we know that John's gospel says, "And we know that John's gospel says, "And we know that his testimony is true." And given that his testimony is true." And given that his testimony is true." And given that we have to just mean that it's speaking we have to just mean that it's speaking we have to just mean that it's speaking in the first person, that means that in the first person, that means that in the first person, that means that John was not authored by the beloved John was not authored by the beloved John was not authored by the beloved disciple, right? It it is possible that disciple, right? It it is possible that disciple, right? It it is possible that John was authored by someone else like John was authored by someone else like John was authored by someone else like John the Presbyter that was part of the John the Presbyter that was part of the John the Presbyter that was part of the Johannine community. Uh so, I do think Johannine community. Uh so, I do think Johannine community. Uh so, I do think it provides other evidence. I don't it provides other evidence. I don't it provides other evidence. I don't think it's as strong as Luke, for think it's as strong as Luke, for think it's as strong as Luke, for example. Uh but, that's why, as I said example. Uh but, that's why, as I said example. Uh but, that's why, as I said before, I think that you you don't want before, I think that you you don't want before, I think that you you don't want to take a dogmatic view when you're to take a dogmatic view when you're to take a dogmatic view when you're making a historical case. You're going making a historical case. You're going making a historical case. You're going to you're going to weigh things a little to you're going to weigh things a little to you're going to weigh things a little bit. And also, I mean, Acts is very bit. And also, I mean, Acts is very bit. And also, I mean, Acts is very historically accurate, and Luke is is a historically accurate, and Luke is is a historically accurate, and Luke is is a phenomenal historian and a doctor, you phenomenal historian and a doctor, you phenomenal historian and a doctor, you know, referenced as the physician of the know, referenced as the physician of the know, referenced as the physician of the group, you know, he whoever wrote Acts group, you know, he whoever wrote Acts group, you know, he whoever wrote Acts and Luke, if it was Luke or maybe it was and Luke, if it was Luke or maybe it was and Luke, if it was Luke or maybe it was someone else, whoever wrote it was an someone else, whoever wrote it was an someone else, whoever wrote it was an incredible historian. It's fair to say incredible historian. It's fair to say incredible historian. It's fair to say the the way he describes places, kings, the the way he describes places, kings, the the way he describes places, kings, traditions is phenomenal. And I think traditions is phenomenal. And I think traditions is phenomenal. And I think anyone, either you know, skeptic, anyone, either you know, skeptic, anyone, either you know, skeptic, non-skeptic, should give Luke credit and non-skeptic, should give Luke credit and non-skeptic, should give Luke credit and the authorship of Acts because I find it

the authorship of Acts because I find it the authorship of Acts because I find it phenomenal and that is why Luke is my phenomenal and that is why Luke is my phenomenal and that is why Luke is my favorite gospel. Because historically I favorite gospel. Because historically I favorite gospel. Because historically I think it is one of the most accurate. think it is one of the most accurate. think it is one of the most accurate. Now, obviously Mark is the earliest. Now, obviously Mark is the earliest. Now, obviously Mark is the earliest. However, Luke's I just love how specific However, Luke's I just love how specific However, Luke's I just love how specific Luke is. He really goes to task to try Luke is. He really goes to task to try Luke is. He really goes to task to try and make it an autobiographical account and make it an autobiographical account and make it an autobiographical account of Jesus which I just love. But yeah, of Jesus which I just love. But yeah, of Jesus which I just love. But yeah, all all this is And so, it's important all all this is And so, it's important all all this is And so, it's important because I mean John asked about the because I mean John asked about the because I mean John asked about the empty tomb which I didn't have a chance empty tomb which I didn't have a chance empty tomb which I didn't have a chance to to speak about. I wanted to I mean a to to speak about. I wanted to I mean a to to speak about. I wanted to I mean a moment ago you said that look, it's moment ago you said that look, it's moment ago you said that look, it's important to ask what would you expect important to ask what would you expect important to ask what would you expect if it were true. And I agree with you, if it were true. And I agree with you, if it were true. And I agree with you, the data fits with what would happen if the data fits with what would happen if the data fits with what would happen if it were true. What I'm saying is it also it were true. What I'm saying is it also it were true. What I'm saying is it also fits with what would happen if it were fits with what would happen if it were fits with what would happen if it were not true. And in that position as an not true. And in that position as an not true. And in that position as an agnostic, I'm not going to believe in agnostic, I'm not going to believe in agnostic, I'm not going to believe in the resurrection, right? It might not be the resurrection, right? It might not be the resurrection, right? It might not be enough for a Christian to abandon faith. enough for a Christian to abandon faith. enough for a Christian to abandon faith. >> Okay. So, I hope you did enjoy that. >> Okay. So, I hope you did enjoy that. >> Okay. So, I hope you did enjoy that. Now, I'm a Christian, you know, I do Now, I'm a Christian, you know, I do Now, I'm a Christian, you know, I do really believe, but I also when I see really believe, but I also when I see really believe, but I also when I see good arguments or I just see interesting good arguments or I just see interesting good arguments or I just see interesting dialogues, I think it's important to dialogues, I think it's important to dialogues, I think it's important to share. And I hope you did enjoy cuz I share. And I hope you did enjoy cuz I share. And I hope you did enjoy cuz I think Trent Horn is a phenomenal think Trent Horn is a phenomenal think Trent Horn is a phenomenal Christian apologist and Alex O'Connor is Christian apologist and Alex O'Connor is Christian apologist and Alex O'Connor is just a phenomenal brain. So, I hope you just a phenomenal brain. So, I hope you just a phenomenal brain. So, I hope you did enjoy. You might enjoy these other did enjoy. You might enjoy these other did enjoy. You might enjoy these other videos here as well. But yeah, let me videos here as well. But yeah, let me videos here as well. But yeah, let me know your thoughts in the comments. But know your thoughts in the comments. But know your thoughts in the comments. But yeah, love you all and I'll see you in yeah, love you all and I'll see you in yeah, love you all and I'll see you in the next one. Peace out.