Scholar Drops MIND-BLOWING Muslim Conversions to Christianity (Justin Bass)

This one really has to do with the This one really has to do with the dreams and visions of Jesus. And and dreams and visions of Jesus. And and dreams and visions of Jesus. And and really my my passion for this uh came as really my my passion for this uh came as really my my passion for this uh came as a result of my time in Jordan. So I got a result of my time in Jordan. So I got a result of my time in Jordan. So I got to actually meet a number of Muslims who to actually meet a number of Muslims who to actually meet a number of Muslims who have had dreams of this. Many times they have had dreams of this. Many times they have had dreams of this. Many times they call man and white. You know, he's he's call man and white. You know, he's he's call man and white. You know, he's he's full of light and he quotes scripture full of light and he quotes scripture full of light and he quotes scripture and and you know, it's a dream or a and and you know, it's a dream or a and and you know, it's a dream or a vision and then they ultimately they vision and then they ultimately they vision and then they ultimately they convert to Christianity. Usually they're convert to Christianity. Usually they're convert to Christianity. Usually they're led to a church or something. And this led to a church or something. And this led to a church or something. And this is happening, you know, from Muslims in is happening, you know, from Muslims in is happening, you know, from Muslims in Syria, from Iraq, from Jordan, from Syria, from Iraq, from Jordan, from Syria, from Iraq, from Jordan, from Lebanon, you know, all over the Middle Lebanon, you know, all over the Middle Lebanon, you know, all over the Middle East. This is kind of a phenomenon. If East. This is kind of a phenomenon. If East. This is kind of a phenomenon. If you talk to missionaries, it's amazing. you talk to missionaries, it's amazing. you talk to missionaries, it's amazing. are even putting up signs that say if are even putting up signs that say if are even putting up signs that say if you've seen the man in white call this you've seen the man in white call this you've seen the man in white call this number. So it's happening so often that number. So it's happening so often that number. So it's happening so often that that that Muslims are responding to that that that Muslims are responding to that that that Muslims are responding to that and and and >> that is quite something and I think it's >> that is quite something and I think it's >> that is quite something and I think it's I believe the stat is one for a quarter I believe the stat is one for a quarter I believe the stat is one for a quarter of Muslims that convert from from being of Muslims that convert from from being of Muslims that convert from from being a Muslim to believing Jesus Christ is a Muslim to believing Jesus Christ is a Muslim to believing Jesus Christ is the Messiah do have dreams of Jesus. And the Messiah do have dreams of Jesus. And the Messiah do have dreams of Jesus. And there's a very common occurrence and it there's a very common occurrence and it there's a very common occurrence and it is interesting like whatever your view is interesting like whatever your view is interesting like whatever your view is if you're Christian atheist I find it is if you're Christian atheist I find it is if you're Christian atheist I find it anyway personally pretty interesting anyway personally pretty interesting anyway personally pretty interesting because there's clearly a common because there's clearly a common because there's clearly a common occurrence. Now you could say obviously occurrence. Now you could say obviously occurrence. Now you could say obviously Jesus in the Quran is a very important Jesus in the Quran is a very important Jesus in the Quran is a very important figure. He performs miracles as babies.

figure. He performs miracles as babies. figure. He performs miracles as babies. He does wonders. Um his divinity in some He does wonders. Um his divinity in some He does wonders. Um his divinity in some respect you could argue is even greater respect you could argue is even greater respect you could argue is even greater in the Quran than in the Bible. in the Quran than in the Bible. in the Quran than in the Bible. Obviously, they don't believe he claimed Obviously, they don't believe he claimed Obviously, they don't believe he claimed to be God, but they do regard Jesus as to be God, but they do regard Jesus as to be God, but they do regard Jesus as an incredibly an incredibly an incredibly um major prophet. So maybe this is what um major prophet. So maybe this is what um major prophet. So maybe this is what kind of contributes to that. But we'll kind of contributes to that. But we'll kind of contributes to that. But we'll see what Justin Bass says here and what see what Justin Bass says here and what see what Justin Bass says here and what the the legendary Bartman responds. And the the legendary Bartman responds. And the the legendary Bartman responds. And so so it's an interesting thing. But as so so it's an interesting thing. But as so so it's an interesting thing. But as I I've gotten into the book, what what I I've gotten into the book, what what I I've gotten into the book, what what I'm fascinated with throughout church I'm fascinated with throughout church I'm fascinated with throughout church history is I actually have examples from history is I actually have examples from history is I actually have examples from every century for the last 2,000 years every century for the last 2,000 years every century for the last 2,000 years of people who have believed that Jesus of people who have believed that Jesus of people who have believed that Jesus appeared to them. And some and I do appeared to them. And some and I do appeared to them. And some and I do think these are separate. These are think these are separate. These are think these are separate. These are distinct from the resurrection distinct from the resurrection distinct from the resurrection appearances which I think ended with appearances which I think ended with appearances which I think ended with Paul. But I think these are the Paul. But I think these are the Paul. But I think these are the continuation just as we see in the book continuation just as we see in the book continuation just as we see in the book of acts. Jesus still continued to uh of acts. Jesus still continued to uh of acts. Jesus still continued to uh appear to Paul like in Corinth and appear to Paul like in Corinth and appear to Paul like in Corinth and encourage him and things like that. encourage him and things like that. encourage him and things like that. These kind of visions are happening These kind of visions are happening These kind of visions are happening whether dreams or visions and they're whether dreams or visions and they're whether dreams or visions and they're happening to people all over the world happening to people all over the world happening to people all over the world almost every nation for the last 2,000 almost every nation for the last 2,000 almost every nation for the last 2,000 years. And so to me again this is years. And so to me again this is years. And so to me again this is another line of evidence that uh Jesus another line of evidence that uh Jesus another line of evidence that uh Jesus rose from the dead and is still rose from the dead and is still rose from the dead and is still appearing to people. It goes back to appearing to people. It goes back to appearing to people. It goes back to what he desires. Jesus desires to seek what he desires. Jesus desires to seek what he desires. Jesus desires to seek and to save the lost. And so I think and to save the lost. And so I think and to save the lost. And so I think Jesus is seeking and saving because even Jesus is seeking and saving because even Jesus is seeking and saving because even unbelievers are having these visions.

unbelievers are having these visions. unbelievers are having these visions. >> I'm going to anticipate what Bart is >> I'm going to anticipate what Bart is >> I'm going to anticipate what Bart is going to say, but Bart, you can correct going to say, but Bart, you can correct going to say, but Bart, you can correct me. But doesn't this happen in other me. But doesn't this happen in other me. But doesn't this happen in other religions? Why why this isn't exclusive religions? Why why this isn't exclusive religions? Why why this isn't exclusive to Christianity? People claim they've to Christianity? People claim they've to Christianity? People claim they've had all kinds of visions in other had all kinds of visions in other had all kinds of visions in other religions. Doesn't prove that the religions. Doesn't prove that the religions. Doesn't prove that the religion is true necessarily. religion is true necessarily. religion is true necessarily. >> Yeah, I would say this is unique to >> Yeah, I would say this is unique to >> Yeah, I would say this is unique to Christianity and and again, so I hate Christianity and and again, so I hate Christianity and and again, so I hate bringing back I think we've bringing back I think we've bringing back I think we've talked about Moroni more in this talked about Moroni more in this talked about Moroni more in this discussion than any anytime Moron's ever discussion than any anytime Moron's ever discussion than any anytime Moron's ever been talked about outside of Utah. But been talked about outside of Utah. But been talked about outside of Utah. But um but but yeah, the fact that Jesus is um but but yeah, the fact that Jesus is um but but yeah, the fact that Jesus is appearing all over the world, almost appearing all over the world, almost appearing all over the world, almost every nation for the last 2,000 years, every nation for the last 2,000 years, every nation for the last 2,000 years, to Hindus, to Buddhists, to Muslims, to to Hindus, to Buddhists, to Muslims, to to Hindus, to Buddhists, to Muslims, to Jews, and they're converting, I I don't Jews, and they're converting, I I don't Jews, and they're converting, I I don't know of any other faith that could make know of any other faith that could make know of any other faith that could make such a claim. So, this is this is I such a claim. So, this is this is I such a claim. So, this is this is I think a unique phenomenon there. There's think a unique phenomenon there. There's think a unique phenomenon there. There's even a I think Bart Bart's aware of this even a I think Bart Bart's aware of this even a I think Bart Bart's aware of this because he referenced Philip Weeby's because he referenced Philip Weeby's because he referenced Philip Weeby's book, Visions of Jesus, which which I'm book, Visions of Jesus, which which I'm book, Visions of Jesus, which which I'm uh had enjoyed reading in in preparing uh had enjoyed reading in in preparing uh had enjoyed reading in in preparing uh in preparation for my book. and and uh in preparation for my book. and and uh in preparation for my book. and and he talks about how there's even a he talks about how there's even a he talks about how there's even a separate study in the psychological separate study in the psychological separate study in the psychological understanding of the paranormal and and understanding of the paranormal and and understanding of the paranormal and and of of these type of things called of of these type of things called of of these type of things called cristic visions because they're so cristic visions because they're so cristic visions because they're so common and there there's so many this is common and there there's so many this is common and there there's so many this is happening so often. So so that that's happening so often. So so that that's happening so often. So so that that's what what I would say is it's really what what I would say is it's really what what I would say is it's really truly a unique phenomenon with again the truly a unique phenomenon with again the truly a unique phenomenon with again the person of Jesus. So this is just another person of Jesus. So this is just another person of Jesus. So this is just another line of evidence to add to all these line of evidence to add to all these line of evidence to add to all these others that we've been talking about others that we've been talking about others that we've been talking about that I think suggests this Jesus rose that I think suggests this Jesus rose that I think suggests this Jesus rose from the dead. Okay, Bob?

from the dead. Okay, Bob? from the dead. Okay, Bob? >> Well, I don't really have anything to >> Well, I don't really have anything to >> Well, I don't really have anything to say about it. I mean, you know, uh say about it. I mean, you know, uh say about it. I mean, you know, uh >> I'm pretty sure you do, V. >> I'm pretty sure you do, V. >> I'm pretty sure you do, V. >> Oh, no. I really don't. I mean, because >> Oh, no. I really don't. I mean, because >> Oh, no. I really don't. I mean, because I don't think it's an I don't think it's I don't think it's an I don't think it's I don't think it's an I don't think it's any evidence of anything. I mean, people any evidence of anything. I mean, people any evidence of anything. I mean, people have dreams about all sorts of things. have dreams about all sorts of things. have dreams about all sorts of things. It doesn't mean the thing is real. I It doesn't mean the thing is real. I It doesn't mean the thing is real. I mean, so I uh I'm sorry. I I've never mean, so I uh I'm sorry. I I've never mean, so I uh I'm sorry. I I've never thought about it, studied it. I I read thought about it, studied it. I I read thought about it, studied it. I I read this book and is very is very weird, this book and is very is very weird, this book and is very is very weird, very strange. I don't believe it really very strange. I don't believe it really very strange. I don't believe it really happened. As you know, the film happened. As you know, the film happened. As you know, the film disappeared. disappeared. disappeared. >> Well, well, I Yeah, I I don't But but >> Well, well, I Yeah, I I don't But but >> Well, well, I Yeah, I I don't But but but he interviewed Just so you know, but he interviewed Just so you know, but he interviewed Just so you know, he's talking about a film that they he's talking about a film that they he's talking about a film that they believe they saw Jesus. I don't buy that believe they saw Jesus. I don't buy that believe they saw Jesus. I don't buy that either. But there was 32 individuals he either. But there was 32 individuals he either. But there was 32 individuals he interviewed that gave very people from interviewed that gave very people from interviewed that gave very people from Canada, people from Australia, people Canada, people from Australia, people Canada, people from Australia, people from America that gave powerful I I was from America that gave powerful I I was from America that gave powerful I I was convinced that they people have dreams convinced that they people have dreams convinced that they people have dreams and visions of you know something like and visions of you know something like and visions of you know something like Christ. Christ. Christ. >> It's not true. It's not true that it >> It's not true. It's not true that it >> It's not true. It's not true that it only happens in Christianity of course. only happens in Christianity of course. only happens in Christianity of course. >> Okay. What it's very famous in the >> Okay. What it's very famous in the >> Okay. What it's very famous in the ancient world. I mean people uh in one ancient world. I mean people uh in one ancient world. I mean people uh in one of the one of the great healing gods of of the one of the great healing gods of of the one of the great healing gods of the Greeks was um um was Eskeipius. And the Greeks was um um was Eskeipius. And the Greeks was um um was Eskeipius. And the way the uh the healing rituals the way the uh the healing rituals the way the uh the healing rituals worked is that there would be there was worked is that there would be there was worked is that there would be there was a shrine of Eskeipius. He was a a divine a shrine of Eskeipius. He was a a divine a shrine of Eskeipius. He was a a divine being, Greek divine being who could heal being, Greek divine being who could heal being, Greek divine being who could heal people. And people who were had a people. And people who were had a people. And people who were had a problem, they had breast cancer or they problem, they had breast cancer or they problem, they had breast cancer or they had a maimed limb or they had uh cancer, had a maimed limb or they had uh cancer, had a maimed limb or they had uh cancer, they had whatever they had uh they were they had whatever they had uh they were they had whatever they had uh they were blind. They'd go to an escipium, it was blind. They'd go to an escipium, it was blind. They'd go to an escipium, it was called eskeleipium, and it would uh and called eskeleipium, and it would uh and called eskeleipium, and it would uh and they would um the way it worked is you they would um the way it worked is you they would um the way it worked is you would go to sleep in there and you'd would go to sleep in there and you'd would go to sleep in there and you'd spend the and eskeepius would come to spend the and eskeepius would come to spend the and eskeepius would come to the person and heal them. Uh and we have the person and heal them. Uh and we have

the person and heal them. Uh and we have abundant testimony, hundreds of of uh abundant testimony, hundreds of of uh abundant testimony, hundreds of of uh testimonies that this worked. Uh, and we testimonies that this worked. Uh, and we testimonies that this worked. Uh, and we actually have a number of these escipia actually have a number of these escipia actually have a number of these escipia where that have been dug up by where that have been dug up by where that have been dug up by archaeologists that they're actually archaeologists that they're actually archaeologists that they're actually pretty interesting because they would pretty interesting because they would pretty interesting because they would make uh representations of the body part make uh representations of the body part make uh representations of the body part that got healed. And so you'd have their that got healed. And so you'd have their that got healed. And so you'd have their walls covered with with breasts and walls covered with with breasts and walls covered with with breasts and penises and arms and eyes and ears penises and arms and eyes and ears penises and arms and eyes and ears depending on what and and so it was all depending on what and and so it was all depending on what and and so it was all based on a dream cult. And Eskeipius based on a dream cult. And Eskeipius based on a dream cult. And Eskeipius isn't the only one. We have all sorts of isn't the only one. We have all sorts of isn't the only one. We have all sorts of cults involving Zeus, for example. And cults involving Zeus, for example. And cults involving Zeus, for example. And so throughout history, of course, there so throughout history, of course, there so throughout history, of course, there have been lots of cults that claim that have been lots of cults that claim that have been lots of cults that claim that that they're uh the person is being, you that they're uh the person is being, you that they're uh the person is being, you know, dreamed of and and healing them. know, dreamed of and and healing them. know, dreamed of and and healing them. >> That is fascinating fascinating, you >> That is fascinating fascinating, you >> That is fascinating fascinating, you know, history. I've learned a lot about know, history. I've learned a lot about know, history. I've learned a lot about Essipius. But I just have to ask you, Essipius. But I just have to ask you, Essipius. But I just have to ask you, Bart, who has Eskeipius appeared to Bart, who has Eskeipius appeared to Bart, who has Eskeipius appeared to lately? lately? lately? >> So that is a very interesting argument >> So that is a very interesting argument >> So that is a very interesting argument Justin gives there. And also Bart Justin gives there. And also Bart Justin gives there. And also Bart because he makes the point, you know, because he makes the point, you know, because he makes the point, you know, Christians claim this big divinity of Christians claim this big divinity of Christians claim this big divinity of Jesus and how he's appearing to people Jesus and how he's appearing to people Jesus and how he's appearing to people and healing people and and he's making and healing people and and he's making and healing people and and he's making the point, well actually in the ancient the point, well actually in the ancient the point, well actually in the ancient world we have endless testimonies of world we have endless testimonies of world we have endless testimonies of this to do with Zeus, Eskeipius. So this to do with Zeus, Eskeipius. So this to do with Zeus, Eskeipius. So therefore, well, what is the validity to therefore, well, what is the validity to therefore, well, what is the validity to this? Well, you only talk about that this? Well, you only talk about that this? Well, you only talk about that because obviously it's your god. And because obviously it's your god. And because obviously it's your god. And Justin makes a very good point here and Justin makes a very good point here and Justin makes a very good point here and he says, well, hang on a sec. Who is he says, well, hang on a sec. Who is he says, well, hang on a sec. Who is Zeus appearing to these days? Now, I Zeus appearing to these days? Now, I Zeus appearing to these days? Now, I haven't looked into it a lot about Zeus haven't looked into it a lot about Zeus haven't looked into it a lot about Zeus appearance people, but I haven't appearance people, but I haven't appearance people, but I haven't certainly heard a lot about it. So, certainly heard a lot about it. So, certainly heard a lot about it. So, we'll see what Bart responds because it we'll see what Bart responds because it we'll see what Bart responds because it be very interesting because it is a good be very interesting because it is a good be very interesting because it is a good question that Justin does pose there to question that Justin does pose there to question that Justin does pose there to Bart, I think.

Bart, I think. Bart, I think. >> Uh, just last night, I had a really >> Uh, just last night, I had a really >> Uh, just last night, I had a really interesting dream and, you know, and it interesting dream and, you know, and it interesting dream and, you know, and it proves that the Sleepfish is raised from proves that the Sleepfish is raised from proves that the Sleepfish is raised from the dead because I dreamed about. the dead because I dreamed about. the dead because I dreamed about. >> Let me ask you this. if people if people >> Let me ask you this. if people if people >> Let me ask you this. if people if people from all over the world from all over the world from all over the world >> see I I love Bart but I would say that >> see I I love Bart but I would say that >> see I I love Bart but I would say that is not that's not a strong response he's is not that's not a strong response he's is not that's not a strong response he's he's given there but I'm sure come up he's given there but I'm sure come up he's given there but I'm sure come up with some something yeah was pretty with some something yeah was pretty with some something yeah was pretty impressive um or something interesting impressive um or something interesting impressive um or something interesting >> started thinking that Eskeipius was >> started thinking that Eskeipius was >> started thinking that Eskeipius was appearing to them or Appalonius Tiana or appearing to them or Appalonius Tiana or appearing to them or Appalonius Tiana or Moroni or any other wouldn't that be Moroni or any other wouldn't that be Moroni or any other wouldn't that be something wouldn't wouldn't you go wow something wouldn't wouldn't you go wow something wouldn't wouldn't you go wow there may be something yeah that would there may be something yeah that would there may be something yeah that would be something be something be something >> but it's happening with Jesus >> but it's happening with Jesus >> but it's happening with Jesus >> I don't think so >> I don't think so >> I don't think so >> no no it's a fact that it's happening >> no no it's a fact that it's happening >> no no it's a fact that it's happening it's is whether or not he's actually it's is whether or not he's actually it's is whether or not he's actually appearing appearing appearing >> there 8 billion there are 8 billion >> there 8 billion there are 8 billion >> there 8 billion there are 8 billion people in the world the people who've people in the world the people who've people in the world the people who've never heard of Jesus do not have dreams never heard of Jesus do not have dreams never heard of Jesus do not have dreams of him of him of him >> no one of the examples in my book is >> no one of the examples in my book is >> no one of the examples in my book is Samuel Morris a guy from Libya and he he Samuel Morris a guy from Libya and he he Samuel Morris a guy from Libya and he he heard the voice of Jesus he went to heard the voice of Jesus he went to heard the voice of Jesus he went to Taylor I don't here to Taylor University Taylor I don't here to Taylor University Taylor I don't here to Taylor University they have a statue for him they they they have a statue for him they they they have a statue for him they they dedicated a whole hall for him he had dedicated a whole hall for him he had dedicated a whole hall for him he had never heard of Jesus he heard the voice never heard of Jesus he heard the voice never heard of Jesus he heard the voice of Jesus he survived this tribal attack of Jesus he survived this tribal attack of Jesus he survived this tribal attack it's an amazing story again it's an amazing story again it's an amazing story again >> like Pinkis Leed you know you should >> like Pinkis Leed you know you should >> like Pinkis Leed you know you should look into these these are powerful but look into these these are powerful but look into these these are powerful but there there definitely are people who there there definitely are people who there there definitely are people who have ever heard of Jesus and they had have ever heard of Jesus and they had have ever heard of Jesus and they had these visions, they had these dreams.

these visions, they had these dreams. these visions, they had these dreams. >> Why do you think it doesn't? So again, I >> Why do you think it doesn't? So again, I >> Why do you think it doesn't? So again, I don't think this is a historical don't think this is a historical don't think this is a historical argument, but just out of curiosity, why argument, but just out of curiosity, why argument, but just out of curiosity, why do you think um why do you think it's to do you think um why do you think it's to do you think um why do you think it's to taken so long? And why don't you think taken so long? And why don't you think taken so long? And why don't you think God Why don't you think Jesus just God Why don't you think Jesus just God Why don't you think Jesus just appears to everybody? appears to everybody? appears to everybody? >> Well, because I I I agree with Pascal, >> Well, because I I I agree with Pascal, >> Well, because I I I agree with Pascal, Blaze Pascal, he said God isn't Blaze Pascal, he said God isn't Blaze Pascal, he said God isn't interested, I'm paraphrasing, but he interested, I'm paraphrasing, but he interested, I'm paraphrasing, but he said God isn't interested in just said God isn't interested in just said God isn't interested in just convincing the intellect. He wants to convincing the intellect. He wants to convincing the intellect. He wants to incline the will. So I think he want he incline the will. So I think he want he incline the will. So I think he want he wants to humble us. So I So I think he wants to humble us. So I So I think he wants to humble us. So I So I think he wants he wants people to not just be wants he wants people to not just be wants he wants people to not just be convinced. He could easily do that. He convinced. He could easily do that. He convinced. He could easily do that. He could do something, you know, wild in could do something, you know, wild in could do something, you know, wild in the sky and convince all of us. He could the sky and convince all of us. He could the sky and convince all of us. He could break the laws of physics and he could break the laws of physics and he could break the laws of physics and he could he could do that at any point. But but I he could do that at any point. But but I he could do that at any point. But but I think the God of the Bible, what what think the God of the Bible, what what think the God of the Bible, what what what I think and Jesus, they want us to what I think and Jesus, they want us to what I think and Jesus, they want us to humble ourselves. They want us Jesus humble ourselves. They want us Jesus humble ourselves. They want us Jesus wants us to come to him and seek him wants us to come to him and seek him wants us to come to him and seek him with all our heart and he'll respond. with all our heart and he'll respond. with all our heart and he'll respond. >> So why does he show up to some people >> So why does he show up to some people >> So why does he show up to some people then if he why does he show up to some then if he why does he show up to some then if he why does he show up to some people not others? people not others? people not others? >> So this is an interesting obviously >> So this is an interesting obviously >> So this is an interesting obviously argument that Bart gives about why why argument that Bart gives about why why argument that Bart gives about why why does he appear to some people why does he appear to some people why does he appear to some people why doesn't he not? It's one of the the most doesn't he not? It's one of the the most doesn't he not? It's one of the the most difficult questions I think any difficult questions I think any difficult questions I think any Christian in the whole world it deals Christian in the whole world it deals Christian in the whole world it deals with. It's like prayer. It's like with. It's like prayer. It's like with. It's like prayer. It's like healing. You know, you'll hear about a healing. You know, you'll hear about a healing. You know, you'll hear about a guy who who prayed to be healed his guy who who prayed to be healed his guy who who prayed to be healed his whole life, his whole church. He was an whole life, his whole church. He was an whole life, his whole church. He was an incredible guy, the best guy ever. The incredible guy, the best guy ever. The incredible guy, the best guy ever. The whole church were praying endlessly and whole church were praying endlessly and whole church were praying endlessly and you know they were like one one of the you know they were like one one of the you know they were like one one of the most best people in his community would most best people in his community would most best people in his community would give his heart out to anyone. But it give his heart out to anyone. But it give his heart out to anyone. But it doesn't work and he does die. You hear doesn't work and he does die. You hear doesn't work and he does die. You hear about this all the time, right? And about this all the time, right? And about this all the time, right? And people are like, why the hell? Sorry, people are like, why the hell? Sorry, people are like, why the hell? Sorry, just But didn't Jesus interfere there?

just But didn't Jesus interfere there? just But didn't Jesus interfere there? Why didn't why didn't God save? But then Why didn't why didn't God save? But then Why didn't why didn't God save? But then there'll be some other person who's not there'll be some other person who's not there'll be some other person who's not a good person, let's say, however you a good person, let's say, however you a good person, let's say, however you want to characterize that, very sinful want to characterize that, very sinful want to characterize that, very sinful person or have a disease or something person or have a disease or something person or have a disease or something and miraculously it will disappear. And and miraculously it will disappear. And and miraculously it will disappear. And you do question why God? Why? Why is you do question why God? Why? Why is you do question why God? Why? Why is this the case? And the thing I always I this the case? And the thing I always I this the case? And the thing I always I always kind of the way I just try in my always kind of the way I just try in my always kind of the way I just try in my head is I think to myself if God did head is I think to myself if God did head is I think to myself if God did like if there was no suffering in the like if there was no suffering in the like if there was no suffering in the world let's say that would not affirm my world let's say that would not affirm my world let's say that would not affirm my belief in God from an honest perspective belief in God from an honest perspective belief in God from an honest perspective if if if I grew up and there was no if if if I grew up and there was no if if if I grew up and there was no suffering in the world that would not suffering in the world that would not suffering in the world that would not then affirm my belief in God. So then affirm my belief in God. So then affirm my belief in God. So therefore it cannot be the thing that therefore it cannot be the thing that therefore it cannot be the thing that means I don't believe in God because I means I don't believe in God because I means I don't believe in God because I know if it didn't exist it wouldn't also know if it didn't exist it wouldn't also know if it didn't exist it wouldn't also affirm my belief in God. Now, loads of affirm my belief in God. Now, loads of affirm my belief in God. Now, loads of people have diff different opinions on people have diff different opinions on people have diff different opinions on this. You obviously got the more um Sam this. You obviously got the more um Sam this. You obviously got the more um Sam Harris like if you know how could God Harris like if you know how could God Harris like if you know how could God just watch this happen? Is he all just watch this happen? Is he all just watch this happen? Is he all powerful if not um you know our powerful if not um you know our powerful if not um you know our conception of God is wrong or he does conception of God is wrong or he does conception of God is wrong or he does see it happen and does nothing and then see it happen and does nothing and then see it happen and does nothing and then you you know the kind of Christopher you you know the kind of Christopher you you know the kind of Christopher Hitchens well God isn't great but it's Hitchens well God isn't great but it's Hitchens well God isn't great but it's it's very interesting I think what it's very interesting I think what it's very interesting I think what Justin says about the heart. Um and Justin says about the heart. Um and Justin says about the heart. Um and Bart's obviously a very intellectual Bart's obviously a very intellectual Bart's obviously a very intellectual guy. He wants to find out the truth and guy. He wants to find out the truth and guy. He wants to find out the truth and he does pose a good question. Why he does pose a good question. Why he does pose a good question. Why doesn't God appear to those who in many doesn't God appear to those who in many doesn't God appear to those who in many realms of of being do actually deserve realms of of being do actually deserve realms of of being do actually deserve to be appeared to? And the truth is we to be appeared to? And the truth is we to be appeared to? And the truth is we don't know. I don't know. I really don't don't know. I don't know. I really don't don't know. I don't know. I really don't know why the massive why why some people know why the massive why why some people know why the massive why why some people suffer. Why some people's lives are are suffer. Why some people's lives are are suffer. Why some people's lives are are such misery and suffering. Why some

such misery and suffering. Why some such misery and suffering. Why some people uh you know are depressed their people uh you know are depressed their people uh you know are depressed their whole lives. Why some people lose the whole lives. Why some people lose the whole lives. Why some people lose the love of their life. You know CS Lewis love of their life. You know CS Lewis love of their life. You know CS Lewis what an example. You know, he meets Joy what an example. You know, he meets Joy what an example. You know, he meets Joy Davidson. He at the end of his life, a Davidson. He at the end of his life, a Davidson. He at the end of his life, a beautiful person who he falls endlessly beautiful person who he falls endlessly beautiful person who he falls endlessly in love with, right? And just at the in love with, right? And just at the in love with, right? And just at the moment when they're married and they're moment when they're married and they're moment when they're married and they're together and they're unified and one in together and they're unified and one in together and they're unified and one in God, he takes her away from him. She God, he takes her away from him. She God, he takes her away from him. She gets cancer and dies just like his mom, gets cancer and dies just like his mom, gets cancer and dies just like his mom, just like his dad, just like his friends just like his dad, just like his friends just like his dad, just like his friends being blown up in the trenches, you being blown up in the trenches, you being blown up in the trenches, you know. And even at the end of his life know. And even at the end of his life know. And even at the end of his life when he's he's been dealt such a rough when he's he's been dealt such a rough when he's he's been dealt such a rough hand, God takes away the love of his hand, God takes away the love of his hand, God takes away the love of his life. And there's a massive question. life. And there's a massive question. life. And there's a massive question. Why does that happen? Why? Why God? You Why does that happen? Why? Why God? You Why does that happen? Why? Why God? You know, I don't know. That's what I'm know, I don't know. That's what I'm know, I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Um, and I think trying to figure out. Um, and I think trying to figure out. Um, and I think Justin does a decent response here Justin does a decent response here Justin does a decent response here because earlier in the debate he doesn't because earlier in the debate he doesn't because earlier in the debate he doesn't do amazing. And I think this is one part do amazing. And I think this is one part do amazing. And I think this is one part of the debate I think Bart is on the of the debate I think Bart is on the of the debate I think Bart is on the ropes a little bit. Not on the ropes, ropes a little bit. Not on the ropes, ropes a little bit. Not on the ropes, but he's I think he's kind of a little but he's I think he's kind of a little but he's I think he's kind of a little bit disconnected from what Justin is bit disconnected from what Justin is bit disconnected from what Justin is saying and also the mystery of faith.

saying and also the mystery of faith. saying and also the mystery of faith. You know, great is the mystery of faith. You know, great is the mystery of faith. You know, great is the mystery of faith. Um, but yeah, we'll see what Bart says Um, but yeah, we'll see what Bart says Um, but yeah, we'll see what Bart says here. I I I don't you know I can't say here. I I I don't you know I can't say here. I I I don't you know I can't say exactly why Jesus appears to this person exactly why Jesus appears to this person exactly why Jesus appears to this person or not but I would say maybe it's or not but I would say maybe it's or not but I would say maybe it's because that person has more open heart because that person has more open heart because that person has more open heart and they're responding and they're responding and they're responding >> in some way kind of like Cornelius in >> in some way kind of like Cornelius in >> in some way kind of like Cornelius in Acts you know he's he's he's seeking you Acts you know he's he's he's seeking you Acts you know he's he's he's seeking you know the true God and what happens an know the true God and what happens an know the true God and what happens an angel appears to Peter and Peter brings angel appears to Peter and Peter brings angel appears to Peter and Peter brings the gospel to Cornelius. the gospel to Cornelius. the gospel to Cornelius. >> So people with an open heart have dreams >> So people with an open heart have dreams >> So people with an open heart have dreams of Jesus and then they convert and of Jesus and then they convert and of Jesus and then they convert and people don't don't and so okay that's people don't don't and so okay that's people don't don't and so okay that's that's fine if that's your theological that's fine if that's your theological that's fine if that's your theological view that's why it's a religious point view that's why it's a religious point view that's why it's a religious point of view. I'm just I'm saying I didn't of view. I'm just I'm saying I didn't of view. I'm just I'm saying I didn't say I know for sure, but I'm just saying say I know for sure, but I'm just saying say I know for sure, but I'm just saying it's likely that it would you have it's likely that it would you have it's likely that it would you have >> you got to like the way Bart just is >> you got to like the way Bart just is >> you got to like the way Bart just is like yeah if you think that Yeah. like yeah if you think that Yeah. like yeah if you think that Yeah. >> I it it's so um like you can just see >> I it it's so um like you can just see >> I it it's so um like you can just see how that gets under Justin's skin. So how that gets under Justin's skin. So how that gets under Justin's skin. So Bart's like he's very he's an academic Bart's like he's very he's an academic Bart's like he's very he's an academic bloke obviously and he's kind of simply bloke obviously and he's kind of simply bloke obviously and he's kind of simply looking at from a historical perspective looking at from a historical perspective looking at from a historical perspective obviously as a bias. He doesn't believe obviously as a bias. He doesn't believe obviously as a bias. He doesn't believe in God and just the way he goes Yep. And in God and just the way he goes Yep. And in God and just the way he goes Yep. And then Justin part of him's like, "No, it then Justin part of him's like, "No, it then Justin part of him's like, "No, it is true." Or there's an insecurity about is true." Or there's an insecurity about is true." Or there's an insecurity about like, "Why is this guy so dismissive of like, "Why is this guy so dismissive of like, "Why is this guy so dismissive of what I'm saying here?" And he's like what I'm saying here?" And he's like what I'm saying here?" And he's like kind of be like, you can feel it. You kind of be like, you can feel it. You kind of be like, you can feel it. You can really feel the tension in that can really feel the tension in that can really feel the tension in that room. It's it's it's class.

room. It's it's it's class. room. It's it's it's class. >> You know very well from the Bible that >> You know very well from the Bible that >> You know very well from the Bible that depending on someone's response in their depending on someone's response in their depending on someone's response in their heart, if they're seeking or if they're heart, if they're seeking or if they're heart, if they're seeking or if they're harden hardening their heart, harden hardening their heart, harden hardening their heart, >> a lot of times that depends on their >> a lot of times that depends on their >> a lot of times that depends on their interaction and how God is. interaction and how God is. interaction and how God is. >> That's fine. I mean, it's a religious >> That's fine. I mean, it's a religious >> That's fine. I mean, it's a religious view and it's fine. It's not the sort of view and it's fine. It's not the sort of view and it's fine. It's not the sort of view that a historian would use to argue view that a historian would use to argue view that a historian would use to argue for something happened in the for something happened in the for something happened in the >> past where where I think you are trying >> past where where I think you are trying >> past where where I think you are trying to tie it to something historical Justin to tie it to something historical Justin to tie it to something historical Justin is that it for you it it seems to be is that it for you it it seems to be is that it for you it it seems to be that this happens in today's world let's that this happens in today's world let's that this happens in today's world let's say for Christianity people from other say for Christianity people from other say for Christianity people from other worldviews and aren't having visions of worldviews and aren't having visions of worldviews and aren't having visions of the prophet Muhammad here in the UK the prophet Muhammad here in the UK the prophet Muhammad here in the UK they're not having visions of they're not having visions of they're not having visions of >> I don't know if that's true people I'll >> I don't know if that's true people I'll >> I don't know if that's true people I'll say it this way people of their own say it this way people of their own say it this way people of their own religions they do have visions but what religions they do have visions but what religions they do have visions but what but across the the the way that doesn't but across the the the way that doesn't but across the the the way that doesn't happen And and it's amazing. I mean, you happen And and it's amazing. I mean, you happen And and it's amazing. I mean, you can even you can even go to Google and can even you can even go to Google and can even you can even go to Google and search. I' I've done it in YouTube. search. I' I've done it in YouTube. search. I' I've done it in YouTube. >> Well, Google's the the one I trust, >> Well, Google's the the one I trust, >> Well, Google's the the one I trust, especially the internet. I think, you especially the internet. I think, you especially the internet. I think, you know, if especially if you have a know, if especially if you have a know, if especially if you have a Wikipedia page, I'm there. Wikipedia page, I'm there. Wikipedia page, I'm there. >> But you but you can't find like like >> But you but you can't find like like >> But you but you can't find like like Christians are not having visions of Christians are not having visions of Christians are not having visions of Muhammad and Krishna and and Buddha. Muhammad and Krishna and and Buddha. Muhammad and Krishna and and Buddha. Okay. You know, Buddhists are not having Okay. You know, Buddhists are not having Okay. You know, Buddhists are not having visions of Krishna.

visions of Krishna. visions of Krishna. >> But you're saying Muslims are having >> But you're saying Muslims are having >> But you're saying Muslims are having visions of visions of visions of >> Muslims are and here's the amazing >> Muslims are and here's the amazing >> Muslims are and here's the amazing thing. Muslims aren't having visions of thing. Muslims aren't having visions of thing. Muslims aren't having visions of Joseph Smith and then saying, "Oh, Joseph Smith and then saying, "Oh, Joseph Smith and then saying, "Oh, Mormonism is true." You know, that Mormonism is true." You know, that Mormonism is true." You know, that doesn't that's never happened. doesn't that's never happened. doesn't that's never happened. >> No, I don't know if it's true or not. >> No, I don't know if it's true or not. >> No, I don't know if it's true or not. And I think, you know, I think that's And I think, you know, I think that's And I think, you know, I think that's incredible. I think it's, you know, I incredible. I think it's, you know, I incredible. I think it's, you know, I think it's literally incredible, but I think it's literally incredible, but I think it's literally incredible, but I think it's incredible. think it's incredible. think it's incredible. >> I'm going to send my book. You're going >> I'm going to send my book. You're going >> I'm going to send my book. You're going to endorse this book. to endorse this book. to endorse this book. >> No, I am not going to endorse you. You I >> No, I am not going to endorse you. You I >> No, I am not going to endorse you. You I will. Yeah. You, if you promise to let will. Yeah. You, if you promise to let will. Yeah. You, if you promise to let me pat my own blurb on the back, I will me pat my own blurb on the back, I will me pat my own blurb on the back, I will definitely write. definitely write. definitely write. >> Okay. Maybe maybe I mean, obviously, but >> Okay. Maybe maybe I mean, obviously, but >> Okay. Maybe maybe I mean, obviously, but you feel you feel you feel >> I believe in freedom of speech, but not >> I believe in freedom of speech, but not >> I believe in freedom of speech, but not on my books. on my books. on my books. >> I mean, you you feel that where Justin >> I mean, you you feel that where Justin >> I mean, you you feel that where Justin takes these arguments strays beyond the takes these arguments strays beyond the takes these arguments strays beyond the realm of history. Obviously you you you realm of history. Obviously you you you realm of history. Obviously you you you think that but in in any case it strikes think that but in in any case it strikes think that but in in any case it strikes me that even when you go back to the me that even when you go back to the me that even when you go back to the things that where you were happy to things that where you were happy to things that where you were happy to agree on some of those bedrock facts the agree on some of those bedrock facts the agree on some of those bedrock facts the death of Jesus the um uh the fact that death of Jesus the um uh the fact that death of Jesus the um uh the fact that there was a claim the um the fact that there was a claim the um the fact that there was a claim the um the fact that their people claimed that they had the their people claimed that they had the their people claimed that they had the appearances and so on even so you you it appearances and so on even so you you it appearances and so on even so you you it doesn't sound to me like that could ever doesn't sound to me like that could ever doesn't sound to me like that could ever amount to enough to amount to enough to amount to enough to >> to explain to for a resurrection to be >> to explain to for a resurrection to be >> to explain to for a resurrection to be explanation because at the end of the explanation because at the end of the explanation because at the end of the day day day >> people don't rise from the That's what >> people don't rise from the That's what >> people don't rise from the That's what you're saying. No, that's what you're you're saying. No, that's what you're you're saying. No, that's what you're saying. You're saying I know it sounds saying. You're saying I know it sounds saying. You're saying I know it sounds like that.

like that. like that. >> You can't break the law of physics. >> You can't break the law of physics. >> You can't break the law of physics. People don't rise to quite what I'm People don't rise to quite what I'm People don't rise to quite what I'm saying. Okay. Okay. You've got he he's saying. Okay. Okay. You've got he he's saying. Okay. Okay. You've got he he's given five claims so far, right? The given five claims so far, right? The given five claims so far, right? The crucifixion, the uh the unparalleled crucifixion, the uh the unparalleled crucifixion, the uh the unparalleled claim as you're calling it. The claim as you're calling it. The claim as you're calling it. The appearance is the triumph of appearance is the triumph of appearance is the triumph of Christianity over the earth and now Christianity over the earth and now Christianity over the earth and now dreams. Okay. So, of those five, I would dreams. Okay. So, of those five, I would dreams. Okay. So, of those five, I would say one of them could be considered say one of them could be considered say one of them could be considered historical evidence for the historical evidence for the historical evidence for the resurrection. resurrection. resurrection. >> I'm not saying >> I'm not saying >> I'm not saying >> which one the appearances. >> which one the appearances. >> which one the appearances. >> Yeah. Because crucifixion obviously >> Yeah. Because crucifixion obviously >> Yeah. Because crucifixion obviously isn't a proof of a resurrection, right? isn't a proof of a resurrection, right? isn't a proof of a resurrection, right? Well, you have to be dead to be Well, you have to be dead to be Well, you have to be dead to be >> Yeah, but that's not proof of a >> Yeah, but that's not proof of a >> Yeah, but that's not proof of a resurrection. It's just proof of death, resurrection. It's just proof of death, resurrection. It's just proof of death, right? So, I mean, it's not proof of right? So, I mean, it's not proof of right? So, I mean, it's not proof of resurrection and uh unprecedented resurrection and uh unprecedented resurrection and uh unprecedented claims. Uh I don't think that's an claims. Uh I don't think that's an claims. Uh I don't think that's an argument because we we we certain the argument because we we we certain the argument because we we we certain the the claim was not, oh, the Messiah has the claim was not, oh, the Messiah has the claim was not, oh, the Messiah has been raised from the dead. The claim was been raised from the dead. The claim was been raised from the dead. The claim was we have seen Jesus. And that claim is we have seen Jesus. And that claim is we have seen Jesus. And that claim is not unprecedented. We have lots and lot not unprecedented. We have lots and lot not unprecedented. We have lots and lot thousands millions of people who claim thousands millions of people who claim thousands millions of people who claim to see someone who's who's dead, who's to see someone who's who's dead, who's to see someone who's who's dead, who's alive now. So that's not evidence. Um alive now. So that's not evidence. Um alive now. So that's not evidence. Um the appearances is evidence that that the appearances is evidence that that the appearances is evidence that that >> but but what does evidence but okay how >> but but what does evidence but okay how >> but but what does evidence but okay how many appearances would you need before many appearances would you need before many appearances would you need before you change where because it didn't you you change where because it didn't you you change where because it didn't you say say say >> just let me get there. So the triumph is >> just let me get there. So the triumph is >> just let me get there. So the triumph is not evidence and the dreams aren't not evidence and the dreams aren't not evidence and the dreams aren't evident. They're not historical evident. They're not historical evident. They're not historical evidence. You might confirm you in your evidence. You might confirm you in your evidence. You might confirm you in your religious beliefs. So it's really the religious beliefs. So it's really the religious beliefs. So it's really the appearance. And so the question is what appearance. And so the question is what appearance. And so the question is what kind of appearances would it take kind of appearances would it take kind of appearances would it take >> to convince somebody?

>> to convince somebody? >> to convince somebody? >> And so the way I usually put it is this. >> And so the way I usually put it is this. >> And so the way I usually put it is this. So uh in terms of the laws of physics, So uh in terms of the laws of physics, So uh in terms of the laws of physics, if you take a uh a cup of coffee or in if you take a uh a cup of coffee or in if you take a uh a cup of coffee or in this country tea and you pour some cream this country tea and you pour some cream this country tea and you pour some cream in it and you stir it up, the uh because in it and you stir it up, the uh because in it and you stir it up, the uh because of the second law of thermodynamics, the of the second law of thermodynamics, the of the second law of thermodynamics, the cream disperses throughout the coffee or cream disperses throughout the coffee or cream disperses throughout the coffee or tea and no matter how much you stir it, tea and no matter how much you stir it, tea and no matter how much you stir it, you can't put the cream back, right? it you can't put the cream back, right? it you can't put the cream back, right? it it's that the law the law of it's that the law the law of it's that the law the law of thermodynamics it's not a theory it's thermodynamics it's not a theory it's thermodynamics it's not a theory it's not a hypo it's the law of thermody not a hypo it's the law of thermody not a hypo it's the law of thermody that's what happens because entropy that's what happens because entropy that's what happens because entropy always increases in a closed system okay always increases in a closed system okay always increases in a closed system okay so that's a law and which means it's it so that's a law and which means it's it so that's a law and which means it's it is to our knowledge it has never been is to our knowledge it has never been is to our knowledge it has never been violated now suppose that there's violated now suppose that there's violated now suppose that there's somebody who says that in 1920 suppose somebody who says that in 1920 suppose somebody who says that in 1920 suppose you have five people suppose you have 10 you have five people suppose you have 10 you have five people suppose you have 10 people who say in 1920 they saw a guy people who say in 1920 they saw a guy people who say in 1920 they saw a guy put cream in his coffee and he stirred put cream in his coffee and he stirred put cream in his coffee and he stirred it till it dispersed and he kept it till it dispersed and he kept it till it dispersed and he kept stirring and then the cream came to the stirring and then the cream came to the stirring and then the cream came to the top just like top just like top just like How many historians would trust those 10 How many historians would trust those 10 How many historians would trust those 10 people? None.

people? None. people? None. And in fact, um, not just and it's not And in fact, um, not just and it's not And in fact, um, not just and it's not just I mean who I wouldn't believe them. just I mean who I wouldn't believe them. just I mean who I wouldn't believe them. They said they saw it. Okay. They said They said they saw it. Okay. They said They said they saw it. Okay. They said they saw it. People say they see things they saw it. People say they see things they saw it. People say they see things that are not true. And so if you've got that are not true. And so if you've got that are not true. And so if you've got something like that that has never something like that that has never something like that that has never happened, you need more than a few happened, you need more than a few happened, you need more than a few people saying they saw it. people saying they saw it. people saying they saw it. >> Okay, >> Okay, >> Okay, >> that's my view. >> that's my view. >> that's my view. >> Final final thoughts and we'll we'll >> Final final thoughts and we'll we'll >> Final final thoughts and we'll we'll close this up. I was if I can ask just close this up. I was if I can ask just close this up. I was if I can ask just one more question. I was going to throw one more question. I was going to throw one more question. I was going to throw out the the 500. We didn't get to talk out the the 500. We didn't get to talk out the the 500. We didn't get to talk about the 500. You make an off-hand about the 500. You make an off-hand about the 500. You make an off-hand comment that that I I thought was comment that that I I thought was comment that that I I thought was interesting. I think it's in how Jesus interesting. I think it's in how Jesus interesting. I think it's in how Jesus became God. You said there's a certain became God. You said there's a certain became God. You said there's a certain force in the argument. And so I was just force in the argument. And so I was just force in the argument. And so I was just curious if the 500, you know, claim if curious if the 500, you know, claim if curious if the 500, you know, claim if if that's historical, if there were 500 if that's historical, if there were 500 if that's historical, if there were 500 people that Paul maybe knew some of people that Paul maybe knew some of people that Paul maybe knew some of them, would you consider that some at them, would you consider that some at them, would you consider that some at least forceful? I'd consider it to be least forceful? I'd consider it to be least forceful? I'd consider it to be the same level of evidence as the the same level of evidence as the the same level of evidence as the thousand people who saw uh the mother thousand people who saw uh the mother thousand people who saw uh the mother mother Mary on a cliff which is um which mother Mary on a cliff which is um which mother Mary on a cliff which is um which happens is completely well documented happens is completely well documented happens is completely well documented that Mary appeared over to over 500 that Mary appeared over to over 500 that Mary appeared over to over 500 people on numerous occasions and I so I people on numerous occasions and I so I people on numerous occasions and I so I think you have to take it into account think you have to take it into account think you have to take it into account figure out well what really probably figure out well what really probably figure out well what really probably happened but I don't know any historian happened but I don't know any historian happened but I don't know any historian who's a non-atholic who would say yeah who's a non-atholic who would say yeah who's a non-atholic who would say yeah therefore Mary genuinely appeared they'd therefore Mary genuinely appeared they'd therefore Mary genuinely appeared they'd say well they saw something say well they saw something say well they saw something >> we're running out of time so we'll we'll >> we're running out of time so we'll we'll >> we're running out of time so we'll we'll have final thoughts so go ahead Justin have final thoughts so go ahead Justin have final thoughts so go ahead Justin >> I would just say you know this has been >> I would just say you know this has been >> I would just say you know this has been great and thank Thank you, Bart again.

great and thank Thank you, Bart again. great and thank Thank you, Bart again. But I I would just say, you know, follow But I I would just say, you know, follow But I I would just say, you know, follow the evidence where it leads. And I I the evidence where it leads. And I I the evidence where it leads. And I I think if you look at the appearances, if think if you look at the appearances, if think if you look at the appearances, if you look at the what what has transpired you look at the what what has transpired you look at the what what has transpired over the last 2,000 years, and over the last 2,000 years, and over the last 2,000 years, and especially I think these these points especially I think these these points especially I think these these points that what Jesus wanted to happen has that what Jesus wanted to happen has that what Jesus wanted to happen has happened, the fact that Jesus is still happened, the fact that Jesus is still happened, the fact that Jesus is still appearing to people in and dreams and appearing to people in and dreams and appearing to people in and dreams and visions all over the world. I think all visions all over the world. I think all visions all over the world. I think all this points I mean, where there's a lot this points I mean, where there's a lot this points I mean, where there's a lot of smoke, there's a fire. And I think, of smoke, there's a fire. And I think, of smoke, there's a fire. And I think, you know, when you look at all the you know, when you look at all the you know, when you look at all the things that have happened around the things that have happened around the things that have happened around the world, I think we see all the smoke. It world, I think we see all the smoke. It world, I think we see all the smoke. It must go back to a fire. I think I think must go back to a fire. I think I think must go back to a fire. I think I think if Bart's correct, it it just smoked all if Bart's correct, it it just smoked all if Bart's correct, it it just smoked all the way down and I don't think so. I the way down and I don't think so. I the way down and I don't think so. I think there was a fire. Final thought, think there was a fire. Final thought, think there was a fire. Final thought, Bob. Bob. Bob. >> Yeah, I think that the um I think the >> Yeah, I think that the um I think the >> Yeah, I think that the um I think the big issue in in Christian apologetics is big issue in in Christian apologetics is big issue in in Christian apologetics is that apologists are doing theology that apologists are doing theology that apologists are doing theology claiming to do history. And I have no claiming to do history. And I have no claiming to do history. And I have no trouble with people doing theology. I trouble with people doing theology. I trouble with people doing theology. I have no trouble with people believing have no trouble with people believing have no trouble with people believing Jesus was raised from the dead. Um Jesus was raised from the dead. Um Jesus was raised from the dead. Um history is uh is actually two things and history is uh is actually two things and history is uh is actually two things and I think apologists tend to get it I think apologists tend to get it I think apologists tend to get it confused and I think that's what's going confused and I think that's what's going confused and I think that's what's going on here. The two things are history in on here. The two things are history in on here. The two things are history in one sense is anything happened in the one sense is anything happened in the one sense is anything happened in the past. The other sense that history the past. The other sense that history the past. The other sense that history the term of the way historians use history term of the way historians use history term of the way historians use history is what you can establish as having is what you can establish as having is what you can establish as having happened in the past where you have happened in the past where you have happened in the past where you have evidence and for that you need evidence and for that you need evidence and for that you need historical argument. You can't have historical argument. You can't have historical argument. You can't have religious arguments. You have to have religious arguments. You have to have religious arguments. You have to have historical arguments just like you can't historical arguments just like you can't historical arguments just like you can't have mathematical arguments to prove have mathematical arguments to prove have mathematical arguments to prove philosophy or you can't have philosophy or you can't have philosophy or you can't have philosophical arguments. You there are philosophical arguments. You there are philosophical arguments. You there are different realms of discourse and different realms of discourse and different realms of discourse and theology and history are different theology and history are different theology and history are different realms of discourse. If you pretend realms of discourse. If you pretend realms of discourse. If you pretend you're doing history when in fact you're you're doing history when in fact you're you're doing history when in fact you're doing theology, I just don't think it's doing theology, I just don't think it's doing theology, I just don't think it's right. And you're trying to convince right. And you're trying to convince right. And you're trying to convince people by because they don't know and people by because they don't know and people by because they don't know and they sound, oh, that sounds like it's they sound, oh, that sounds like it's they sound, oh, that sounds like it's history. No, it is not history. To claim

history. No, it is not history. To claim history. No, it is not history. To claim that um that that something is that um that that something is that um that that something is historical requires a critical historical requires a critical historical requires a critical evaluation of all the sources and all evaluation of all the sources and all evaluation of all the sources and all the information and to establish levels the information and to establish levels the information and to establish levels of probability. It isn't simply to tell of probability. It isn't simply to tell of probability. It isn't simply to tell people what they want to hear and say, people what they want to hear and say, people what they want to hear and say, "Here's my evidence for it." "Here's my evidence for it." "Here's my evidence for it." >> Right? Well, you can go and look for >> Right? Well, you can go and look for >> Right? Well, you can go and look for yourself in the books that have been yourself in the books that have been yourself in the books that have been mentioned already. Damn, what a debate. mentioned already. Damn, what a debate. mentioned already. Damn, what a debate. And very interesting what Bart says And very interesting what Bart says And very interesting what Bart says there at the end. I mean, when he speaks there at the end. I mean, when he speaks there at the end. I mean, when he speaks about mathematics, you can't prove about mathematics, you can't prove about mathematics, you can't prove certain philosophical concepts or stuff. certain philosophical concepts or stuff. certain philosophical concepts or stuff. I wouldn't say that is actually true. I wouldn't say that is actually true. I wouldn't say that is actually true. Um, but it's an interesting kind of Um, but it's an interesting kind of Um, but it's an interesting kind of argument he puts about how there's argument he puts about how there's argument he puts about how there's different realms and to really know what different realms and to really know what different realms and to really know what you're talking about. You need to stay you're talking about. You need to stay you're talking about. You need to stay in that realm of what what you're what in that realm of what what you're what in that realm of what what you're what you're trying to describe. And it's an you're trying to describe. And it's an you're trying to describe. And it's an interesting argument and I think there's interesting argument and I think there's interesting argument and I think there's a lot of truth in that because often you a lot of truth in that because often you a lot of truth in that because often you do see apologists kind of, you know, do see apologists kind of, you know, do see apologists kind of, you know, they'll creep into his history and then they'll creep into his history and then they'll creep into his history and then jump out of it and go to theology. Um, jump out of it and go to theology. Um, jump out of it and go to theology. Um, but to really make a compelling case, but to really make a compelling case, but to really make a compelling case, you like historical events. There's you like historical events. There's you like historical events. There's there's so many different things and I'm there's so many different things and I'm there's so many different things and I'm I'm just figuring this out as well. You I'm just figuring this out as well. You I'm just figuring this out as well. You know, I know so little about so many know, I know so little about so many know, I know so little about so many different things like visions. I'm different things like visions. I'm different things like visions. I'm currently reading a book, the book they currently reading a book, the book they currently reading a book, the book they spoke about in there. It is a brilliant spoke about in there. It is a brilliant spoke about in there. It is a brilliant visions of Jesus where it speaks about visions of Jesus where it speaks about visions of Jesus where it speaks about study. There's loads of different people study. There's loads of different people study. There's loads of different people in it and Jesus appears to him and it is in it and Jesus appears to him and it is in it and Jesus appears to him and it is quite something because often obviously quite something because often obviously quite something because often obviously we hear about you know Paul's conversion we hear about you know Paul's conversion we hear about you know Paul's conversion or Jesus appearing to the disciples but or Jesus appearing to the disciples but or Jesus appearing to the disciples but to actually hear modernday to actually hear modernday to actually hear modernday encounters of Jesus of Nazareth of encounters of Jesus of Nazareth of encounters of Jesus of Nazareth of people who experienced him in train

people who experienced him in train people who experienced him in train stations when they're on the sofa at stations when they're on the sofa at stations when they're on the sofa at work um in prison you know so many work um in prison you know so many work um in prison you know so many different scenarios. is quite something different scenarios. is quite something different scenarios. is quite something to read and it really makes you think to read and it really makes you think to read and it really makes you think wow like like if I believe it is true so wow like like if I believe it is true so wow like like if I believe it is true so for me it was incredible to read right for me it was incredible to read right for me it was incredible to read right but even if you don't believe just but even if you don't believe just but even if you don't believe just reading and be like wow what is going on reading and be like wow what is going on reading and be like wow what is going on here like it is a bit of a you know it's here like it is a bit of a you know it's here like it is a bit of a you know it's an interesting one so do check that out an interesting one so do check that out an interesting one so do check that out I would highly suggest visions of Jesus I would highly suggest visions of Jesus I would highly suggest visions of Jesus I I'll link a link below if you want to I I'll link a link below if you want to I I'll link a link below if you want to go and purchase it um but I love you all go and purchase it um but I love you all go and purchase it um but I love you all please do like subscribe if you did please do like subscribe if you did please do like subscribe if you did enjoy this um and as a Christian I just enjoy this um and as a Christian I just enjoy this um and as a Christian I just want to seek the truth I just want want to seek the truth I just want want to seek the truth I just want understand what happened 2,000 years ago understand what happened 2,000 years ago understand what happened 2,000 years ago to Jesus of Nazareth. And thank you for to Jesus of Nazareth. And thank you for to Jesus of Nazareth. And thank you for being along here with me in this being along here with me in this being along here with me in this journey. But yeah, love you all. Take it journey. But yeah, love you all. Take it journey. But yeah, love you all. Take it easy and peace.