Top Atheist Historian STUNNED by Paul’s Conversion - Tom Holland Can’t Explain It

So watch as this famous historian is So watch as this famous historian is left almost speechless in talking about left almost speechless in talking about left almost speechless in talking about how Paul converted from going around how Paul converted from going around how Paul converted from going around murdering Christians to being a murdering Christians to being a murdering Christians to being a Christian himself. Where do you go as a Christian himself. Where do you go as a Christian himself. Where do you go as a historian Tom Holland with this historian Tom Holland with this historian Tom Holland with this obviously very significant event that I obviously very significant event that I obviously very significant event that I think you'd agree there's some think you'd agree there's some think you'd agree there's some historical basis to that something historical basis to that something historical basis to that something happened on the road to Damascus. What happened on the road to Damascus. What happened on the road to Damascus. What what do you think happened though in what do you think happened though in what do you think happened though in your view? I think in the broadest your view? I think in the broadest your view? I think in the broadest context, Paul is negotiating a tension context, Paul is negotiating a tension context, Paul is negotiating a tension that is inherent within the that is inherent within the that is inherent within the understanding of the God of Israel understanding of the God of Israel understanding of the God of Israel because he is on the one hand the God of because he is on the one hand the God of because he is on the one hand the God of Israel and he is on the other hand the Israel and he is on the other hand the Israel and he is on the other hand the creator of the entire world. So how do creator of the entire world. So how do creator of the entire world. So how do you negotiate that tension and in the you negotiate that tension and in the you negotiate that tension and in the globalizing world of the Roman Empire in globalizing world of the Roman Empire in globalizing world of the Roman Empire in which many Jews live? This becomes a which many Jews live? This becomes a which many Jews live? This becomes a particularly pressing issue. particularly pressing issue. particularly pressing issue. >> How do you live in the wider the so to >> How do you live in the wider the so to >> How do you live in the wider the so to what extent is God also the creator of what extent is God also the creator of what extent is God also the creator of you know of the Greeks and the Romans you know of the Greeks and the Romans you know of the Greeks and the Romans and the Egyptians and whoever? I mean, and the Egyptians and whoever? I mean, and the Egyptians and whoever? I mean, this is a kind of somewhere and anywhere this is a kind of somewhere and anywhere this is a kind of somewhere and anywhere kind of question that, you know, we were kind of question that, you know, we were kind of question that, you know, we were talking about earlier, still we still talking about earlier, still we still talking about earlier, still we still have today. And I I I I would suspect have today. And I I I I would suspect have today. And I I I I would suspect that Paul is struggling to negotiate that Paul is struggling to negotiate that Paul is struggling to negotiate that as a as a a Greekeaking Pharisee. that as a as a a Greekeaking Pharisee. that as a as a a Greekeaking Pharisee. >> What persuades him to think the things >> What persuades him to think the things >> What persuades him to think the things that he does, I think profoundly that he does, I think profoundly that he does, I think profoundly mysterious. And I have no doubt that he mysterious. And I have no doubt that he mysterious. And I have no doubt that he did think that he had seen Jesus. I did think that he had seen Jesus. I did think that he had seen Jesus. I mean, I I can't think of any other mean, I I can't think of any other mean, I I can't think of any other reason that would explain why he does reason that would explain why he does reason that would explain why he does what he does. And I mean it's mysterious what he does. And I mean it's mysterious what he does. And I mean it's mysterious in in in in two ways really. One is that in in in in two ways really. One is that in in in in two ways really. One is that that he he chucks over what presumably that he he chucks over what presumably that he he chucks over what presumably would have been a very comfortable would have been a very comfortable would have been a very comfortable career to essentially embark on a life career to essentially embark on a life career to essentially embark on a life as a kind of wandering bum who is going as a kind of wandering bum who is going as a kind of wandering bum who is going to face repeated beatings and ultimately to face repeated beatings and ultimately to face repeated beatings and ultimately face death.

face death. face death. >> Um and the other is why it would ever >> Um and the other is why it would ever >> Um and the other is why it would ever cross his mind that in some way a cross his mind that in some way a cross his mind that in some way a crucified criminal is is a part of the crucified criminal is is a part of the crucified criminal is is a part of the one God of Israel. And the strange thing one God of Israel. And the strange thing one God of Israel. And the strange thing about all his letters is that although about all his letters is that although about all his letters is that although he's arguing repeatedly for his he's arguing repeatedly for his he's arguing repeatedly for his understanding of who Jesus is and and understanding of who Jesus is and and understanding of who Jesus is and and how he should be understood and how he how he should be understood and how he how he should be understood and how he he should be comprehended, I mean, I may he should be comprehended, I mean, I may he should be comprehended, I mean, I may be corrected on this, but I don't think be corrected on this, but I don't think be corrected on this, but I don't think at any point does he feel the need to at any point does he feel the need to at any point does he feel the need to actually argue that Jesus is in some way actually argue that Jesus is in some way actually argue that Jesus is in some way a part of God. a part of God. a part of God. >> So Tom Holland, the very famous >> So Tom Holland, the very famous >> So Tom Holland, the very famous historian, actually is struggling to historian, actually is struggling to historian, actually is struggling to explain it because it doesn't make explain it because it doesn't make explain it because it doesn't make sense. Why would a Jew back then who sense. Why would a Jew back then who sense. Why would a Jew back then who viewed God and the coming Messiah to be viewed God and the coming Messiah to be viewed God and the coming Messiah to be some sort of grand person when actually some sort of grand person when actually some sort of grand person when actually this person was put on a cross in the this person was put on a cross in the this person was put on a cross in the most horrific way, humiliated, betrayed? most horrific way, humiliated, betrayed? most horrific way, humiliated, betrayed? Why would Paul, the guy who went around Why would Paul, the guy who went around Why would Paul, the guy who went around murdering the people, they said this guy murdering the people, they said this guy murdering the people, they said this guy was the Messiah, all of a sudden think, was the Messiah, all of a sudden think, was the Messiah, all of a sudden think, well actually he's the Messiah after well actually he's the Messiah after well actually he's the Messiah after this. It is a kind of really really this. It is a kind of really really this. It is a kind of really really bonkers story and it's the the one of bonkers story and it's the the one of bonkers story and it's the the one of the things I love the most about Paul is the things I love the most about Paul is the things I love the most about Paul is not only his radical teachings and how not only his radical teachings and how not only his radical teachings and how filled of the spirit he is in in the way filled of the spirit he is in in the way filled of the spirit he is in in the way he preaches. It's also because they're he preaches. It's also because they're he preaches. It's also because they're the earliest letters post Jesus we have.

the earliest letters post Jesus we have. the earliest letters post Jesus we have. They're the earliest accounts we have. They're the earliest accounts we have. They're the earliest accounts we have. And what a man to actually have that. Um And what a man to actually have that. Um And what a man to actually have that. Um like it wasn't just you know one of the like it wasn't just you know one of the like it wasn't just you know one of the followers of Jesus who's been loyal followers of Jesus who's been loyal followers of Jesus who's been loyal throughout. know it was someone who was throughout. know it was someone who was throughout. know it was someone who was literally murdering Christians is the literally murdering Christians is the literally murdering Christians is the person we have the earliest writings of. person we have the earliest writings of. person we have the earliest writings of. Um and isn't that just so incredible and Um and isn't that just so incredible and Um and isn't that just so incredible and I find it very impressive how a his a I find it very impressive how a his a I find it very impressive how a his a very esteemed historian like Tom Holland very esteemed historian like Tom Holland very esteemed historian like Tom Holland is stumped to explain how this happened. is stumped to explain how this happened. is stumped to explain how this happened. Now that doesn't mean there's not some Now that doesn't mean there's not some Now that doesn't mean there's not some arguments. There's interesting arguments arguments. There's interesting arguments arguments. There's interesting arguments by the likes of Bartman talking about by the likes of Bartman talking about by the likes of Bartman talking about guilt in where people who feel immense guilt in where people who feel immense guilt in where people who feel immense guilt actually experience seeing people guilt actually experience seeing people guilt actually experience seeing people like often a relative. I think he he he like often a relative. I think he he he like often a relative. I think he he he started a study where it's like one in started a study where it's like one in started a study where it's like one in eight people whose relatives died in a eight people whose relatives died in a eight people whose relatives died in a traumatic way end up seeing or traumatic way end up seeing or traumatic way end up seeing or encountering them. I've heard some encountering them. I've heard some encountering them. I've heard some interesting arguments there and don't interesting arguments there and don't interesting arguments there and don't get me wrong there are some crazy get me wrong there are some crazy get me wrong there are some crazy stories about people you know stories about people you know stories about people you know encountering dead relatives etc. But the encountering dead relatives etc. But the encountering dead relatives etc. But the the radical nature of a guy who went the radical nature of a guy who went the radical nature of a guy who went around thinking, you know, this guy's around thinking, you know, this guy's around thinking, you know, this guy's the worst thing ever. You know, he's the worst thing ever. You know, he's the worst thing ever. You know, he's he's a blasphemer. We must kill he's a blasphemer. We must kill he's a blasphemer. We must kill Christians. We must put them in prison.

Christians. We must put them in prison. Christians. We must put them in prison. We must torture them. To be like, wait, We must torture them. To be like, wait, We must torture them. To be like, wait, actually, this guy is God, and I actually, this guy is God, and I actually, this guy is God, and I shouldn't have done what I did. And then shouldn't have done what I did. And then shouldn't have done what I did. And then to go off and, you know, to all these to go off and, you know, to all these to go off and, you know, to all these different places and preach the word of different places and preach the word of different places and preach the word of God, be in prison. I mean, it really is God, be in prison. I mean, it really is God, be in prison. I mean, it really is quite something. Even from a historical quite something. Even from a historical quite something. Even from a historical perspective, even if you're a perspective, even if you're a perspective, even if you're a non-believer, it's it's a very non-believer, it's it's a very non-believer, it's it's a very interesting thing to really unpack interesting thing to really unpack interesting thing to really unpack because you want to think what is going because you want to think what is going because you want to think what is going on here. What in someone's right mind do on here. What in someone's right mind do on here. What in someone's right mind do they go from having absolute vitrial for they go from having absolute vitrial for they go from having absolute vitrial for someone to being a believer? Now, I someone to being a believer? Now, I someone to being a believer? Now, I [clears throat] guess you could say in a [clears throat] guess you could say in a [clears throat] guess you could say in a way if you look at politics that that way if you look at politics that that way if you look at politics that that has happened in many areas. I mean, look has happened in many areas. I mean, look has happened in many areas. I mean, look at JD Vance in America. you know, a few at JD Vance in America. you know, a few at JD Vance in America. you know, a few like a year ago, he was basically saying like a year ago, he was basically saying like a year ago, he was basically saying that um Trump was borderline Hitler and that um Trump was borderline Hitler and that um Trump was borderline Hitler and now he's now he's now he's cozying up to him in the White House and cozying up to him in the White House and cozying up to him in the White House and he's the vice president of the United he's the vice president of the United he's the vice president of the United States of America. Who would have ever States of America. Who would have ever States of America. Who would have ever thought that? So, people do change their thought that? So, people do change their thought that? So, people do change their politics um from thinking someone's the politics um from thinking someone's the politics um from thinking someone's the worst person ever to liking them. And worst person ever to liking them. And worst person ever to liking them. And I've had a transformation of my I've had a transformation of my I've had a transformation of my politics. You know, maybe that does give politics. You know, maybe that does give politics. You know, maybe that does give some insight into how people do develop some insight into how people do develop some insight into how people do develop their opinions. And maybe I am kind of their opinions. And maybe I am kind of their opinions. And maybe I am kind of looking at this from a a very biased looking at this from a a very biased looking at this from a a very biased view, you could say. But um I find it view, you could say. But um I find it view, you could say. But um I find it very interesting though, a historian who very interesting though, a historian who very interesting though, a historian who is so um [clears throat] knowledgeable is so um [clears throat] knowledgeable is so um [clears throat] knowledgeable about Rome um and Jesus's time. I know I about Rome um and Jesus's time. I know I about Rome um and Jesus's time. I know I think he underdo himself Tom Holland

think he underdo himself Tom Holland think he underdo himself Tom Holland when he speaks about the history of when he speaks about the history of when he speaks about the history of Jesus and not knowing lot because he's I Jesus and not knowing lot because he's I Jesus and not knowing lot because he's I I think he does know it very well. I I think he does know it very well. I I think he does know it very well. I think it's the class one. You know, the think it's the class one. You know, the think it's the class one. You know, the more you know, the more you realize how more you know, the more you realize how more you know, the more you realize how little you know. I think he's got that a little you know. I think he's got that a little you know. I think he's got that a bit. But um what an interesting bit. But um what an interesting bit. But um what an interesting conversation cuz it's NT Wright who's a conversation cuz it's NT Wright who's a conversation cuz it's NT Wright who's a esteemed British historian who's a esteemed British historian who's a esteemed British historian who's a Christian and you got Tom Holland who is Christian and you got Tom Holland who is Christian and you got Tom Holland who is a Christian. No, no, sorry, not a a Christian. No, no, sorry, not a a Christian. No, no, sorry, not a Christian, atheist, but also a famous Christian, atheist, but also a famous Christian, atheist, but also a famous historian. But we'll see what else he historian. But we'll see what else he historian. But we'll see what else he says says says >> taken for granted. And everyone seems to >> taken for granted. And everyone seems to >> taken for granted. And everyone seems to understand this. understand this. understand this. >> And it used to be so. And when you had >> And it used to be so. And when you had >> And it used to be so. And when you had Larry Hatardo on the show, you Larry Hatardo on the show, you Larry Hatardo on the show, you presumably discussed these kinds of presumably discussed these kinds of presumably discussed these kinds of things. Um, it used to be thought that things. Um, it used to be thought that things. Um, it used to be thought that Jesus only was regarded as fully divine Jesus only was regarded as fully divine Jesus only was regarded as fully divine much later, like the end of the first much later, like the end of the first much later, like the end of the first generation or even early second century generation or even early second century generation or even early second century and only at the end of the New Testament and only at the end of the New Testament and only at the end of the New Testament period. And I think now most New period. And I think now most New period. And I think now most New Testament scholars are convinced that Testament scholars are convinced that Testament scholars are convinced that actually this is on the table from the actually this is on the table from the actually this is on the table from the beginning. And and it's it's taken for beginning. And and it's it's taken for beginning. And and it's it's taken for granted in Galatians, which I think is granted in Galatians, which I think is granted in Galatians, which I think is Paul's earliest letter. Paul's earliest letter. Paul's earliest letter. >> And the strangeness of that is is >> And the strangeness of that is is >> And the strangeness of that is is something that we perhaps are are kind something that we perhaps are are kind something that we perhaps are are kind of immune to because it's in the Bible. of immune to because it's in the Bible. of immune to because it's in the Bible. So you read it and but you think, you So you read it and but you think, you So you read it and but you think, you know, why why would he think this? Why know, why why would he think this? Why know, why why would he think this? Why would anyone think it's a very strange would anyone think it's a very strange would anyone think it's a very strange thing for a devout Jew to have thought? thing for a devout Jew to have thought? thing for a devout Jew to have thought? But but I would guess I mean and I can't But but I would guess I mean and I can't But but I would guess I mean and I can't remember whether you whether you say remember whether you whether you say remember whether you whether you say this in your blog because I read it a this in your blog because I read it a this in your blog because I read it a when in proof when in proof when in proof >> but but having you know having had >> but but having you know having had >> but but having you know having had presumably this kind of convulsive presumably this kind of convulsive presumably this kind of convulsive experience experience experience >> I tried a ton of AI work tools then I >> I tried a ton of AI work tools then I >> I tried a ton of AI work tools then I tried monday.com game over Monday tried monday.com game over Monday tried monday.com game over Monday >> presumably then he turns to scripture to >> presumably then he turns to scripture to >> presumably then he turns to scripture to try and work out what's happened and try and work out what's happened and try and work out what's happened and essentially you know he reads through essentially you know he reads through essentially you know he reads through all the passages and and and and kind of all the passages and and and and kind of all the passages and and and and kind of constructs this theology. I I think one constructs this theology. I I think one constructs this theology. I I think one of the things we fail to realize often of the things we fail to realize often of the things we fail to realize often in modern western Christianity, never in modern western Christianity, never in modern western Christianity, never mind the secular world, is the stories

mind the secular world, is the stories mind the secular world, is the stories that people had in their heads about that people had in their heads about that people had in their heads about what God was going to do. And what God was going to do. And what God was going to do. And particularly the end of the book of particularly the end of the book of particularly the end of the book of Ezekiel, hugely important, and parallels Ezekiel, hugely important, and parallels Ezekiel, hugely important, and parallels in Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 40 and in Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 40 and in Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 40 and 52, God's promise that he will one day 52, God's promise that he will one day 52, God's promise that he will one day come back visibly in person to dwell in come back visibly in person to dwell in come back visibly in person to dwell in the temple, to rescue his people, to do the temple, to rescue his people, to do the temple, to rescue his people, to do what has to be done, etc., etc. And what has to be done, etc., etc. And what has to be done, etc., etc. And those promises are kind of shimmering in those promises are kind of shimmering in those promises are kind of shimmering in the background. And some people in the the background. And some people in the the background. And some people in the Jewish world like the author of the book Jewish world like the author of the book Jewish world like the author of the book we call penser or ecclesiasticus seems we call penser or ecclesiasticus seems we call penser or ecclesiasticus seems to think that this sort of has happened to think that this sort of has happened to think that this sort of has happened because wisdom has come to dwell in the because wisdom has come to dwell in the because wisdom has come to dwell in the temple in the form of the teaching of temple in the form of the teaching of temple in the form of the teaching of Torah. Now most Jews in Paul's day I Torah. Now most Jews in Paul's day I Torah. Now most Jews in Paul's day I don't think believe that they still don't think believe that they still don't think believe that they still thought there was something major yet to thought there was something major yet to thought there was something major yet to happen. And it is as though with Paul happen. And it is as though with Paul happen. And it is as though with Paul and indeed with the gospels it isn't and indeed with the gospels it isn't and indeed with the gospels it isn't just that they are telling Jesus stories just that they are telling Jesus stories just that they are telling Jesus stories and somehow saying by the way there's and somehow saying by the way there's and somehow saying by the way there's another dimension to this. They are another dimension to this. They are another dimension to this. They are telling the story which was Israel's telling the story which was Israel's telling the story which was Israel's story about God coming back but the only story about God coming back but the only story about God coming back but the only way they can tell it is by talking about way they can tell it is by talking about way they can tell it is by talking about Jesus. So it's not just a Jesus story Jesus. So it's not just a Jesus story Jesus. So it's not just a Jesus story with a God dimension. It's actually the with a God dimension. It's actually the with a God dimension. It's actually the God story with a Jesus focus. And and God story with a Jesus focus. And and God story with a Jesus focus. And and it's hard for us to realize that because it's hard for us to realize that because it's hard for us to realize that because the last 200 years philosophically, the last 200 years philosophically, the last 200 years philosophically, theologically, we haven't been there. So theologically, we haven't been there. So theologically, we haven't been there. So when I then look at how Paul is handling when I then look at how Paul is handling when I then look at how Paul is handling Isaiah, how he's handling the the Isaiah, how he's handling the the Isaiah, how he's handling the the passages about the new Exodus with um passages about the new Exodus with um passages about the new Exodus with um the pillar of cloud and fire coming only the pillar of cloud and fire coming only the pillar of cloud and fire coming only now it's Jesus and the spirit. You see, now it's Jesus and the spirit. You see, now it's Jesus and the spirit. You see, he's drawing on Jewish traditions about he's drawing on Jewish traditions about he's drawing on Jewish traditions about the presence and saving power of God.

the presence and saving power of God. the presence and saving power of God. And then of course they all get focused, And then of course they all get focused, And then of course they all get focused, not least on that middle chunk of Isaiah not least on that middle chunk of Isaiah not least on that middle chunk of Isaiah where you get the so-called suffering where you get the so-called suffering where you get the so-called suffering servant. And the suffering servant seems servant. And the suffering servant seems servant. And the suffering servant seems to be God saying, "Actually, when you to be God saying, "Actually, when you to be God saying, "Actually, when you look to see what it's like when I come look to see what it's like when I come look to see what it's like when I come back to rescue you, oh my goodness, it's back to rescue you, oh my goodness, it's back to rescue you, oh my goodness, it's going to be like this." And we see going to be like this." And we see going to be like this." And we see Jewish exodates at the time struggling Jewish exodates at the time struggling Jewish exodates at the time struggling with Isaiah 53. Some of them thinking with Isaiah 53. Some of them thinking with Isaiah 53. Some of them thinking it's a Messiah, but actually the it's a Messiah, but actually the it's a Messiah, but actually the suffering is what he inflicts on other suffering is what he inflicts on other suffering is what he inflicts on other people. And other people thinking, "No, people. And other people thinking, "No, people. And other people thinking, "No, it's real suffering, but it's the it's real suffering, but it's the it's real suffering, but it's the martyrs. It's not the Messiah." And martyrs. It's not the Messiah." And martyrs. It's not the Messiah." And Jesus and then Paul picking this up seem Jesus and then Paul picking this up seem Jesus and then Paul picking this up seem to have fused these two together with to have fused these two together with to have fused these two together with this extraordinary notion of a suffering this extraordinary notion of a suffering this extraordinary notion of a suffering Messiah who turns out to be the personal Messiah who turns out to be the personal Messiah who turns out to be the personal embodiment of Israel's God. And that embodiment of Israel's God. And that embodiment of Israel's God. And that that and then we see this already by that and then we see this already by that and then we see this already by early on in Paul woven into fresh early on in Paul woven into fresh early on in Paul woven into fresh prayings of central Jewish prayers. The prayings of central Jewish prayers. The prayings of central Jewish prayers. The famous one in 1 Corinthians 8 where it's famous one in 1 Corinthians 8 where it's famous one in 1 Corinthians 8 where it's here O Israel the Lord our God the Lord here O Israel the Lord our God the Lord here O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one in Greek curios curiosin and Paul is one in Greek curios curiosin and Paul is one in Greek curios curiosin and Paul astonishingly finds Jesus inside that. astonishingly finds Jesus inside that. astonishingly finds Jesus inside that. So he says for us there is one God the So he says for us there is one God the So he says for us there is one God the father from whom are all things we to father from whom are all things we to father from whom are all things we to him and one Lord Jesus the Messiah him and one Lord Jesus the Messiah him and one Lord Jesus the Messiah through whom are all things. So you've through whom are all things. So you've through whom are all things. So you've got he's theoska he's curios but it's got he's theoska he's curios but it's got he's theoska he's curios but it's God and Jesus. At the heart of Jewish God and Jesus. At the heart of Jewish God and Jesus. At the heart of Jewish monotheism, Paul finds this bifurcation.

monotheism, Paul finds this bifurcation. monotheism, Paul finds this bifurcation. >> And I mean, absolutely fascinating there >> And I mean, absolutely fascinating there >> And I mean, absolutely fascinating there because [clears throat] I think one because [clears throat] I think one because [clears throat] I think one thing to always go back to with Jesus thing to always go back to with Jesus thing to always go back to with Jesus and William Lane Craig famously said the and William Lane Craig famously said the and William Lane Craig famously said the the miraculousness of Jesus isn't the the miraculousness of Jesus isn't the the miraculousness of Jesus isn't the fact that a man claimed to be God was fact that a man claimed to be God was fact that a man claimed to be God was killed and then supposedly rose again. killed and then supposedly rose again. killed and then supposedly rose again. It was the fact that a guy who claimed It was the fact that a guy who claimed It was the fact that a guy who claimed to be the Messiah, who claimed to be to be the Messiah, who claimed to be to be the Messiah, who claimed to be God, was then killed. Because it's one God, was then killed. Because it's one God, was then killed. Because it's one thing for someone to let's say dup thing for someone to let's say dup thing for someone to let's say dup everyone but it's another thing to say I everyone but it's another thing to say I everyone but it's another thing to say I am what who you've been waiting for and am what who you've been waiting for and am what who you've been waiting for and then somehow pull it off. That's then somehow pull it off. That's then somehow pull it off. That's something on a different realm and it's something on a different realm and it's something on a different realm and it's fascinating what anti-right speaks about fascinating what anti-right speaks about fascinating what anti-right speaks about there and the kind of complexities and there and the kind of complexities and there and the kind of complexities and intricacies of who we expected Jesus to intricacies of who we expected Jesus to intricacies of who we expected Jesus to come and famously Nicodemus part of the come and famously Nicodemus part of the come and famously Nicodemus part of the Jewish Sanhedrin he was like maybe we Jewish Sanhedrin he was like maybe we Jewish Sanhedrin he was like maybe we have got it this wrong you know maybe have got it this wrong you know maybe have got it this wrong you know maybe the the Messiah who we expected was the the Messiah who we expected was the the Messiah who we expected was is is different you know and it's and I is is different you know and it's and I is is different you know and it's and I actually kind of took that apart a actually kind of took that apart a actually kind of took that apart a little bit from watching the chosen cuz little bit from watching the chosen cuz little bit from watching the chosen cuz I kind of almost forgot even reading the I kind of almost forgot even reading the I kind of almost forgot even reading the gospel was actually about Nicodemus. And gospel was actually about Nicodemus. And gospel was actually about Nicodemus. And it's amazing that that was a man who was it's amazing that that was a man who was it's amazing that that was a man who was entrenching the Jewish Sanhedrin, entrenching the Jewish Sanhedrin, entrenching the Jewish Sanhedrin, entrenching that in that way and then entrenching that in that way and then entrenching that in that way and then came to think, "Oh my goodness, this came to think, "Oh my goodness, this came to think, "Oh my goodness, this really is the Messiah." And what a really is the Messiah." And what a really is the Messiah." And what a fascinating insight into actually being fascinating insight into actually being fascinating insight into actually being a Jew back then because the truth is I a Jew back then because the truth is I a Jew back then because the truth is I like I think if I was Jew back then, I like I think if I was Jew back then, I like I think if I was Jew back then, I probably would have thought Jesus was a probably would have thought Jesus was a probably would have thought Jesus was a heretical person. I probably would cuz heretical person. I probably would cuz heretical person. I probably would cuz the notion that this guy was God was the notion that this guy was God was the notion that this guy was God was just so outlandish. I I don't think in just so outlandish. I I don't think in just so outlandish. I I don't think in in my honesty of heart that I would have in my honesty of heart that I would have in my honesty of heart that I would have thought Jesus was the Messiah. Um and

thought Jesus was the Messiah. Um and thought Jesus was the Messiah. Um and that's why scripture is so important. that's why scripture is so important. that's why scripture is so important. That's where we really try and That's where we really try and That's where we really try and understand what Jews fought back then understand what Jews fought back then understand what Jews fought back then and and understand who Jesus was and the and and understand who Jesus was and the and and understand who Jesus was and the impact he had and just the radical impact he had and just the radical impact he had and just the radical nature of Christianity and everything in nature of Christianity and everything in nature of Christianity and everything in between. But I hope you enjoyed this one between. But I hope you enjoyed this one between. But I hope you enjoyed this one guys. It was an amazing one of Tom guys. It was an amazing one of Tom guys. It was an amazing one of Tom Holland getting stumped over why Paul Holland getting stumped over why Paul Holland getting stumped over why Paul converted to Christianity and the converted to Christianity and the converted to Christianity and the obviously appearance on the road to obviously appearance on the road to obviously appearance on the road to Damascus. But thank you so much for Damascus. But thank you so much for Damascus. But thank you so much for watching. Do like, subscribe if you'd watching. Do like, subscribe if you'd watching. Do like, subscribe if you'd enjoy it and also follow my substack enjoy it and also follow my substack enjoy it and also follow my substack link below for more stuff like this. But link below for more stuff like this. But link below for more stuff like this. But anyway, love you all and I'll see you in anyway, love you all and I'll see you in anyway, love you all and I'll see you in the next one tomorrow.