TOP Historian SHAKES Christianity with THIS FACT (Bart Ehrman v Justin Bass)

Mary is appearing to people, does it Mary is appearing to people, does it more support the resurrection or not? more support the resurrection or not? more support the resurrection or not? >> If um yes, if Mary if Mary is showing up >> If um yes, if Mary if Mary is showing up >> If um yes, if Mary if Mary is showing up to people, then that would support the to people, then that would support the to people, then that would support the >> So your example to parallel to kind of >> So your example to parallel to kind of >> So your example to parallel to kind of thwart the evidence for the resurrection thwart the evidence for the resurrection thwart the evidence for the resurrection actually would support the resurrection. actually would support the resurrection. actually would support the resurrection. >> No, no, no. You're not understanding my >> No, no, no. You're not understanding my >> No, no, no. You're not understanding my argument. I'm saying that you argument. I'm saying that you argument. I'm saying that you >> But that's true, right? What I just said >> But that's true, right? What I just said >> But that's true, right? What I just said is true. is true. is true. >> No, you're not. >> No, you're not. >> No, you're not. >> You just admitted that you said if Mary >> You just admitted that you said if Mary >> You just admitted that you said if Mary had had is appearing to people and you had had is appearing to people and you had had is appearing to people and you think there's a lot of evidence for it. think there's a lot of evidence for it. think there's a lot of evidence for it. I don't think so. I think it lacks the I don't think so. I think it lacks the I don't think so. I think it lacks the unexpectedness that the the the the unexpectedness that the the the the unexpectedness that the the the the apostles these people like Paul, Peter, apostles these people like Paul, Peter, apostles these people like Paul, Peter, Mary were in no way expecting Jesus to Mary were in no way expecting Jesus to Mary were in no way expecting Jesus to appear to them in no way. appear to them in no way. appear to them in no way. >> So so Catholics who expect that can have >> So so Catholics who expect that can have >> So so Catholics who expect that can have an expectation for this type of thing. an expectation for this type of thing. an expectation for this type of thing. It makes sense while it why it would It makes sense while it why it would It makes sense while it why it would happen. So you have you it so the happen. So you have you it so the happen. So you have you it so the argument argument argument >> the problem is you're arguing about >> the problem is you're arguing about >> the problem is you're arguing about three things at once. three things at once. three things at once. >> You're arguing three or four things at >> You're arguing three or four things at >> You're arguing three or four things at once. I don't think you've read the once. I don't think you've read the once. I don't think you've read the literature on Mary because in many many literature on Mary because in many many literature on Mary because in many many quite a lot of it. Yeah. Laurentine. quite a lot of it. Yeah. Laurentine. quite a lot of it. Yeah. Laurentine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Then you know full well that many times >> Then you know full well that many times >> Then you know full well that many times it's not uh expected.

it's not uh expected. it's not uh expected. >> So um because if you've read the >> So um because if you've read the >> So um because if you've read the literature so literature so literature so >> No. No. Of course it's expected. That's >> No. No. Of course it's expected. That's >> No. No. Of course it's expected. That's the point. the point. the point. >> No. Then you haven't read the >> No. Then you haven't read the >> No. Then you haven't read the literature. There are many testimonies literature. There are many testimonies literature. There are many testimonies of people who are not who don't expect of people who are not who don't expect of people who are not who don't expect it and can't believe it. it and can't believe it. it and can't believe it. >> Yeah. But they know about Christianity. >> Yeah. But they know about Christianity. >> Yeah. But they know about Christianity. They know about people appearing to They know about people appearing to They know about people appearing to people. They know about the resurrection people. They know about the resurrection people. They know about the resurrection of Jesus. That's what I'm saying. of Jesus. That's what I'm saying. of Jesus. That's what I'm saying. >> And is that different from the Christian >> And is that different from the Christian >> And is that different from the Christian world view? Yeah. where was the world view? Yeah. where was the world view? Yeah. where was the expectation for this? expectation for this? expectation for this? >> So, this is a very interesting point >> So, this is a very interesting point >> So, this is a very interesting point that Bart brings up here about the that Bart brings up here about the that Bart brings up here about the unexpectedness of Mary, visions, unexpectedness of Mary, visions, unexpectedness of Mary, visions, apparitions, whatever you want to call apparitions, whatever you want to call apparitions, whatever you want to call it, because we know that Mary it, because we know that Mary it, because we know that Mary apparently does appear more than Jesus. apparently does appear more than Jesus. apparently does appear more than Jesus. People do have more encounters, more People do have more encounters, more People do have more encounters, more visions with Mary. And Jason Bass is not visions with Mary. And Jason Bass is not visions with Mary. And Jason Bass is not a Catholic. So, Justin Bass, sorry, is a Catholic. So, Justin Bass, sorry, is a Catholic. So, Justin Bass, sorry, is not a Catholic. to obviously the skin not a Catholic. to obviously the skin not a Catholic. to obviously the skin the game to basically dispute that. Now, the game to basically dispute that. Now, the game to basically dispute that. Now, Biomman argues that well, they're Biomman argues that well, they're Biomman argues that well, they're apocalyptic Jews and this was in the apocalyptic Jews and this was in the apocalyptic Jews and this was in the playbook. And there's massive historical playbook. And there's massive historical playbook. And there's massive historical contention on that. And I'll be contention on that. And I'll be contention on that. And I'll be completely honest, I do not know the completely honest, I do not know the completely honest, I do not know the answers, but I find this exchange answers, but I find this exchange answers, but I find this exchange fascinating because Mary apparitions is fascinating because Mary apparitions is fascinating because Mary apparitions is something that do does happen. And I something that do does happen. And I something that do does happen. And I it's very interesting the argument Bart it's very interesting the argument Bart it's very interesting the argument Bart poses because he's saying to Justin, you poses because he's saying to Justin, you poses because he's saying to Justin, you know, all right, if we're going to take know, all right, if we're going to take know, all right, if we're going to take your face at visions, apparitions, well, your face at visions, apparitions, well, your face at visions, apparitions, well, what about all these, you know, visions what about all these, you know, visions what about all these, you know, visions of Mary? Do we have them with the same of Mary? Do we have them with the same of Mary? Do we have them with the same way? And if if not, why not? And then way? And if if not, why not? And then way? And if if not, why not? And then why should we follow the same visions why should we follow the same visions why should we follow the same visions and apparitions of Jesus? It's very and apparitions of Jesus? It's very and apparitions of Jesus? It's very interesting. We we'll see what else Bart interesting. We we'll see what else Bart interesting. We we'll see what else Bart says there says there says there >> or Jesus. This is a key key part of what

>> or Jesus. This is a key key part of what >> or Jesus. This is a key key part of what you mean by people who knew him. Yeah. you mean by people who knew him. Yeah. you mean by people who knew him. Yeah. What was the expectation? But What was the expectation? But What was the expectation? But >> where's the expectation for Mary? >> where's the expectation for Mary? >> where's the expectation for Mary? They're not expecting her to show up and They're not expecting her to show up and They're not expecting her to show up and she does. she does. she does. >> But they're in a worldview that could >> But they're in a worldview that could >> But they're in a worldview that could that allows that allows that allows >> you in a worldview. They're in an >> you in a worldview. They're in an >> you in a worldview. They're in an apocalyptic world. Where was the apocalyptic world. Where was the apocalyptic world. Where was the Messiah? Messiah? Messiah? >> So that's interesting. Justin says >> So that's interesting. Justin says >> So that's interesting. Justin says they're in a worldview that expects Mary they're in a worldview that expects Mary they're in a worldview that expects Mary to turn up. And then Bart says, "Well, to turn up. And then Bart says, "Well, to turn up. And then Bart says, "Well, the Jews were obviously in a worldview the Jews were obviously in a worldview the Jews were obviously in a worldview for Jesus for Jesus for Jesus to appear, the Messiah, because they to appear, the Messiah, because they to appear, the Messiah, because they were Jews. They, you know, they read were Jews. They, you know, they read were Jews. They, you know, they read Isaiah, they read Daniel, they they read Isaiah, they read Daniel, they they read Isaiah, they read Daniel, they they read Old Testament scripture. So there was a Old Testament scripture. So there was a Old Testament scripture. So there was a predisposition to see these things." And predisposition to see these things." And predisposition to see these things." And Bart's basically saying, "Why do you Bart's basically saying, "Why do you Bart's basically saying, "Why do you have different principles?" And it is a have different principles?" And it is a have different principles?" And it is a fair point. It really is a pretty good fair point. It really is a pretty good fair point. It really is a pretty good point by buyer. I would say point by buyer. I would say point by buyer. I would say >> where was the expectation of a messiah >> where was the expectation of a messiah >> where was the expectation of a messiah rising again from the dead. Tell me rising again from the dead. Tell me rising again from the dead. Tell me that. that. that. >> That isn't the that isn't what generated >> That isn't the that isn't what generated >> That isn't the that isn't what generated the uh the appearances. They thought the uh the appearances. They thought the uh the appearances. They thought they saw Jesus afterwards. they saw Jesus afterwards. they saw Jesus afterwards. >> Of course, because he actually appeared >> Of course, because he actually appeared >> Of course, because he actually appeared to them. to them. to them. >> Then they concluded he was the Messiah.

>> Then they concluded he was the Messiah. >> Then they concluded he was the Messiah. >> But if he didn't appear to them like >> But if he didn't appear to them like >> But if he didn't appear to them like >> expecting the Messiah to rise, >> expecting the Messiah to rise, >> expecting the Messiah to rise, >> how did they expect? Well, then how did >> how did they expect? Well, then how did >> how did they expect? Well, then how did they they they >> and they weren't expecting Mary to >> and they weren't expecting Mary to >> and they weren't expecting Mary to appear? Okay. Then how did they believe appear? Okay. Then how did they believe appear? Okay. Then how did they believe Jesus appeared to them? Jesus appeared to them? Jesus appeared to them? >> They saw him. >> They saw him. >> They saw him. >> Okay. So, what did they see? >> Okay. So, what did they see? >> Okay. So, what did they see? >> Well, how do we know what what what do >> Well, how do we know what what what do >> Well, how do we know what what what do they see when they see Mary? You don't they see when they see Mary? You don't they see when they see Mary? You don't think they see Mary? think they see Mary? think they see Mary? >> Well, that's what I'm saying. I think >> Well, that's what I'm saying. I think >> Well, that's what I'm saying. I think some of the evidence for the Mary is some of the evidence for the Mary is some of the evidence for the Mary is they saw something. they saw something. they saw something. >> Well, I think they saw something with >> Well, I think they saw something with >> Well, I think they saw something with Jesus, too. Of course, I've never But Jesus, too. Of course, I've never But Jesus, too. Of course, I've never But that's the thing. It led them to say that's the thing. It led them to say that's the thing. It led them to say something that was completely something that was completely something that was completely unexpected. unexpected. unexpected. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, I think it I think it's compelling >> So, I think it I think it's compelling >> So, I think it I think it's compelling evidence. I just for for actually you evidence. I just for for actually you evidence. I just for for actually you guys are going to raise Jesus guys are going to raise Jesus guys are going to raise Jesus >> 10 to the dozen here and I just want to >> 10 to the dozen here and I just want to >> 10 to the dozen here and I just want to for for the for the sake of the the for for the for the sake of the the for for the for the sake of the the viewer or listener I just want to be viewer or listener I just want to be viewer or listener I just want to be really clear on this point that you're really clear on this point that you're really clear on this point that you're making at this point Justin because making at this point Justin because making at this point Justin because there's a lot of different points being there's a lot of different points being there's a lot of different points being thrown out here but but it's that you thrown out here but but it's that you thrown out here but but it's that you you say that the idea of a resurrected you say that the idea of a resurrected you say that the idea of a resurrected Messiah who had been crucified and Messiah who had been crucified and Messiah who had been crucified and resurrected was completely unexpected in resurrected was completely unexpected in resurrected was completely unexpected in that Jewish culture and and therefore is that Jewish culture and and therefore is that Jewish culture and and therefore is what you're essentially saying it's what you're essentially saying it's what you're essentially saying it's unlikely they would have made something unlikely they would have made something unlikely they would have made something like that up there had to be some kind like that up there had to be some kind like that up there had to be some kind of experience that came behind that of experience that came behind that of experience that came behind that claim because it was such an unexpected claim because it was such an unexpected claim because it was such an unexpected claim. Whereas I think what I understand claim. Whereas I think what I understand claim. Whereas I think what I understand you saying appearances of the Virgin you saying appearances of the Virgin you saying appearances of the Virgin Mary although they may not have been Mary although they may not have been Mary although they may not have been expected in that moment or whatever by expected in that moment or whatever by expected in that moment or whatever by the people experiencing them there is a the people experiencing them there is a the people experiencing them there is a general expectation among in Catholicism general expectation among in Catholicism general expectation among in Catholicism that that sort of thing happens and that that sort of thing happens and that that sort of thing happens and therefore it's not so hard to believe therefore it's not so hard to believe therefore it's not so hard to believe that it's been generated.

that it's been generated. that it's been generated. >> So where did they get the idea? >> So where did they get the idea? >> So where did they get the idea? >> I'd like to respond to that. I just >> I'd like to respond to that. I just >> I'd like to respond to that. I just wanted to make sure we got that. No, I wanted to make sure we got that. No, I wanted to make sure we got that. No, I think it's a good it's a good think it's a good it's a good think it's a good it's a good clarification because I think that's clarification because I think that's clarification because I think that's absolutely right. absolutely right. absolutely right. >> And I think it's what happened with the >> And I think it's what happened with the >> And I think it's what happened with the followers of Jesus as well. followers of Jesus as well. followers of Jesus as well. >> Okay. Go on. >> Okay. Go on. >> Okay. Go on. >> They did not expect a Messiah to be >> They did not expect a Messiah to be >> They did not expect a Messiah to be raised from the dead. There was no raised from the dead. There was no raised from the dead. There was no expectation that a Messiah was going to expectation that a Messiah was going to expectation that a Messiah was going to die and raised from the dead. So they die and raised from the dead. So they die and raised from the dead. So they didn't expect that. The question is what didn't expect that. The question is what didn't expect that. The question is what happened to generate that belief. happened to generate that belief. happened to generate that belief. >> My view is it's absolutely right that >> My view is it's absolutely right that >> My view is it's absolutely right that Peter probably Mary probably Paul Peter probably Mary probably Paul Peter probably Mary probably Paul certainly I would say thought they saw certainly I would say thought they saw certainly I would say thought they saw Jesus alive afterwards. there something Jesus alive afterwards. there something Jesus alive afterwards. there something happened to them to make them think that happened to them to make them think that happened to them to make them think that Jesus was alive. It's not because they Jesus was alive. It's not because they Jesus was alive. It's not because they were expecting the Messiah to rise from were expecting the Messiah to rise from were expecting the Messiah to rise from the dead. the dead. the dead. >> It wasn't >> It wasn't >> It wasn't >> right. >> right. >> right. >> What we don't know is who else had these >> What we don't know is who else had these >> What we don't know is who else had these experiences. experiences. experiences. What we know is that there were claims What we know is that there were claims What we know is that there were claims that other people did after the first that other people did after the first that other people did after the first people claimed it. people claimed it. people claimed it. >> Okay? >> Okay? >> Okay? >> And so once once you have a follower of >> And so once once you have a follower of >> And so once once you have a follower of Jesus like Peter say I saw the Lord, Jesus like Peter say I saw the Lord, Jesus like Peter say I saw the Lord, it's not implausible. In fact, it others it's not implausible. In fact, it others it's not implausible. In fact, it others start saying, "Oh, I saw him too."

start saying, "Oh, I saw him too." start saying, "Oh, I saw him too." >> So that's copycat. So >> So that's copycat. So >> So that's copycat. So >> it's the same thing with Mary. It's >> it's the same thing with Mary. It's >> it's the same thing with Mary. It's exactly the same thing. And so my point exactly the same thing. And so my point exactly the same thing. And so my point is is not that that proves that Mary was is is not that that proves that Mary was is is not that that proves that Mary was raised from the dead or anything. My raised from the dead or anything. My raised from the dead or anything. My point is that if that's the kind of point is that if that's the kind of point is that if that's the kind of argument you want to make about Jesus, argument you want to make about Jesus, argument you want to make about Jesus, you can make it about other people. That you can make it about other people. That you can make it about other people. That is just as just as possible. is just as just as possible. is just as just as possible. >> Very interesting point. And that's kind >> Very interesting point. And that's kind >> Very interesting point. And that's kind of the point about the emperor's no of the point about the emperor's no of the point about the emperor's no clothes. you know, one person says, "Oh, clothes. you know, one person says, "Oh, clothes. you know, one person says, "Oh, you have an amazing clothes or um you you have an amazing clothes or um you you have an amazing clothes or um you know, it looks amazing." Then everyone know, it looks amazing." Then everyone know, it looks amazing." Then everyone goes on with it. And you there's so many goes on with it. And you there's so many goes on with it. And you there's so many examples of this about, you know, a examples of this about, you know, a examples of this about, you know, a square circle um or a certain color, you square circle um or a certain color, you square circle um or a certain color, you know, someone says, "Oh, yeah, look at know, someone says, "Oh, yeah, look at know, someone says, "Oh, yeah, look at this color." And it's clearly not the this color." And it's clearly not the this color." And it's clearly not the color. And people go along with it and color. And people go along with it and color. And people go along with it and they almost get to the point where they they almost get to the point where they they almost get to the point where they literally believe what's wrong. Um, and literally believe what's wrong. Um, and literally believe what's wrong. Um, and I it's a very weird phenomenon that goes I it's a very weird phenomenon that goes I it's a very weird phenomenon that goes on and you could you could bring it to on and you could you could bring it to on and you could you could bring it to uh under the reign of Hitler, you know, uh under the reign of Hitler, you know, uh under the reign of Hitler, you know, people kind of with they were so people kind of with they were so people kind of with they were so drenched in propaganda that they drenched in propaganda that they drenched in propaganda that they genuinely believe believe with their genuinely believe believe with their genuinely believe believe with their heart that like the Jews were this that heart that like the Jews were this that heart that like the Jews were this that they were causing this issue. And it they were causing this issue. And it they were causing this issue. And it it's a it's a very interesting it's a it's a very interesting it's a it's a very interesting phenomenon humans do where they do just phenomenon humans do where they do just phenomenon humans do where they do just convince themselves of something that convince themselves of something that convince themselves of something that simply is not true. And that's the simply is not true. And that's the simply is not true. And that's the danger of propaganda. Um, and it's it's danger of propaganda. Um, and it's it's danger of propaganda. Um, and it's it's the I think the quote about like, you the I think the quote about like, you the I think the quote about like, you know, if you look into the abyss for know, if you look into the abyss for know, if you look into the abyss for long enough, you you will become it. And long enough, you you will become it. And long enough, you you will become it. And it there's definitely some a lot of it there's definitely some a lot of it there's definitely some a lot of truth in there. It's a very interesting truth in there. It's a very interesting truth in there. It's a very interesting point that bar gives here. And we'll see point that bar gives here. And we'll see point that bar gives here. And we'll see what Justin says in response.

what Justin says in response. what Justin says in response. >> Is the historical issue here then that >> Is the historical issue here then that >> Is the historical issue here then that you think that this claim that the you think that this claim that the you think that this claim that the Messiah had been raised was kind of a Messiah had been raised was kind of a Messiah had been raised was kind of a postfacto kind of sort of postfacto kind of sort of postfacto kind of sort of rationalization of these experiences rationalization of these experiences rationalization of these experiences they had. they had. they had. >> They thought he was the Messiah before >> They thought he was the Messiah before >> They thought he was the Messiah before he died in my my judgment. Right? So, he died in my my judgment. Right? So, he died in my my judgment. Right? So, they [clears throat] did think he was they [clears throat] did think he was they [clears throat] did think he was the Messiah. the Messiah. the Messiah. >> They weren't expecting him to die, >> They weren't expecting him to die, >> They weren't expecting him to die, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> He died. One of them, two of them, three >> He died. One of them, two of them, three >> He died. One of them, two of them, three of them said, "I've seen the Lord." And of them said, "I've seen the Lord." And of them said, "I've seen the Lord." And then they had to figure out, well, how then they had to figure out, well, how then they had to figure out, well, how how does that work? Uh, and it must mean how does that work? Uh, and it must mean how does that work? Uh, and it must mean if if he's if he's alive again, it must if if he's if he's alive again, it must if if he's if he's alive again, it must mean that God's raised him from the mean that God's raised him from the mean that God's raised him from the dead. dead. dead. >> But there were other >> But there were other >> But there were other >> these are apocalyptic Jews. Apocalyptic >> these are apocalyptic Jews. Apocalyptic >> these are apocalyptic Jews. Apocalyptic Jews, the only way they can imagine life Jews, the only way they can imagine life Jews, the only way they can imagine life after death is an embodied existence. after death is an embodied existence. after death is an embodied existence. They don't believe the soul lives on They don't believe the soul lives on They don't believe the soul lives on after death. These are Jew Jews believe after death. These are Jew Jews believe after death. These are Jew Jews believe that the body and soul are one thing and that the body and soul are one thing and that the body and soul are one thing and the afterlife, if there is an afterlife, the afterlife, if there is an afterlife, the afterlife, if there is an afterlife, it's body and soul. it's body and soul. it's body and soul. >> So that if they see Jesus alive >> So that if they see Jesus alive >> So that if they see Jesus alive afterwards, it must mean that his soul afterwards, it must mean that his soul afterwards, it must mean that his soul has come back into his body. How does has come back into his body. How does has come back into his body. How does that happen? It can only happen when God that happen? It can only happen when God that happen? It can only happen when God does it. Okay, God has raised him from does it. Okay, God has raised him from does it. Okay, God has raised him from the dead. Once they say they raised him the dead. Once they say they raised him the dead. Once they say they raised him from the dead and they already knew he from the dead and they already knew he from the dead and they already knew he was the Messiah, that's when they start was the Messiah, that's when they start was the Messiah, that's when they start saying, "Okay, the Messiah was raised."

saying, "Okay, the Messiah was raised." saying, "Okay, the Messiah was raised." quick response and we'll go to a break quick response and we'll go to a break quick response and we'll go to a break and then we'll and then we'll and then we'll >> I was going to say but there's other >> I was going to say but there's other >> I was going to say but there's other categories that that they could have as categories that that they could have as categories that that they could have as Jews thought of the Mcabes died horrible Jews thought of the Mcabes died horrible Jews thought of the Mcabes died horrible deaths and they believe they lived on deaths and they believe they lived on deaths and they believe they lived on exalted in the heaven and they you know exalted in the heaven and they you know exalted in the heaven and they you know you have you have many other examples of you have you have many other examples of you have you have many other examples of the this kind of disembodied continuing the this kind of disembodied continuing the this kind of disembodied continuing to live on but they will rise again at to live on but they will rise again at to live on but they will rise again at the final resurrection but what the the final resurrection but what the the final resurrection but what the early Christians said is that Jesus had early Christians said is that Jesus had early Christians said is that Jesus had risen again now the resurrection had risen again now the resurrection had risen again now the resurrection had already begun Bart agrees with that but already begun Bart agrees with that but already begun Bart agrees with that but where did that idea come from That's the where did that idea come from That's the where did that idea come from That's the unexpectedness. It came from completely unexpectedness. It came from completely unexpectedness. It came from completely unexpected. unexpected. unexpected. >> Uh, >> Uh, >> Uh, >> right. But but you're saying they put it >> right. But but you're saying they put it >> right. But but you're saying they put it together. You're saying they just together. You're saying they just together. You're saying they just they're the geniuses who put this they're the geniuses who put this they're the geniuses who put this innovative unparalleled idea that has innovative unparalleled idea that has innovative unparalleled idea that has changed the world that all goes back to changed the world that all goes back to changed the world that all goes back to the brain of Mary Magdalene. the brain of Mary Magdalene. the brain of Mary Magdalene. >> I changing the world has nothing to do >> I changing the world has nothing to do >> I changing the world has nothing to do with it. The issue is what does an with it. The issue is what does an with it. The issue is what does an apocalyptic apocalyptic apocalyptic >> It did change the world though, right? >> It did change the world though, right? >> It did change the world though, right? >> So that's an interesting point. He says >> So that's an interesting point. He says >> So that's an interesting point. He says it changed the world. And Bart's making it changed the world. And Bart's making it changed the world. And Bart's making the point how he's basically trying to the point how he's basically trying to the point how he's basically trying to separate the argument of how saying separate the argument of how saying separate the argument of how saying Christianity changed the world is one Christianity changed the world is one Christianity changed the world is one thing, but that doesn't have any thing, but that doesn't have any thing, but that doesn't have any validity to the truth in the sense that validity to the truth in the sense that validity to the truth in the sense that loads of things can catch on and change loads of things can catch on and change loads of things can catch on and change the world. I mean, I would argue as a the world. I mean, I would argue as a the world. I mean, I would argue as a Christian myself, I would say, what are Christian myself, I would say, what are Christian myself, I would say, what are the chances that a guy from Nazareth, the chances that a guy from Nazareth, the chances that a guy from Nazareth, um, from a irrelevant place, not a um, from a irrelevant place, not a um, from a irrelevant place, not a wealthy man at all, who didn't fight wealthy man at all, who didn't fight wealthy man at all, who didn't fight anyone, who didn't, you know, have a war anyone, who didn't, you know, have a war anyone, who didn't, you know, have a war with anyone, who you would think that with anyone, who you would think that with anyone, who you would think that that would not be the man to conquer the

that would not be the man to conquer the that would not be the man to conquer the world from love. You would not think world from love. You would not think world from love. You would not think that this man would have more books that this man would have more books that this man would have more books written about him than anyone in history written about him than anyone in history written about him than anyone in history and he never even wrote anything and he never even wrote anything and he never even wrote anything himself. You wouldn't think that people himself. You wouldn't think that people himself. You wouldn't think that people would risk their lives to die to say would risk their lives to die to say would risk their lives to die to say that this guy is Messiah Lord. Now that this guy is Messiah Lord. Now that this guy is Messiah Lord. Now people still do do that on things that people still do do that on things that people still do do that on things that aren't true. We know that. Um but it's aren't true. We know that. Um but it's aren't true. We know that. Um but it's all this combination of multiple things all this combination of multiple things all this combination of multiple things where you do question like it is where you do question like it is where you do question like it is something isn't it? It re like I'm a something isn't it? It re like I'm a something isn't it? It re like I'm a Christian so I'm gonna be honest. I have Christian so I'm gonna be honest. I have Christian so I'm gonna be honest. I have complete bias when I speak about this. I complete bias when I speak about this. I complete bias when I speak about this. I I do believe Jesus was Messiah. I do I do believe Jesus was Messiah. I do I do believe Jesus was Messiah. I do believe that man was divine. I do believe that man was divine. I do believe that man was divine. I do believe he did really walk. I believe he believe he did really walk. I believe he believe he did really walk. I believe he did really perform miracles. I did do did really perform miracles. I did do did really perform miracles. I did do truly believe he he he died and rose truly believe he he he died and rose truly believe he he he died and rose again and appeared to people. I do again and appeared to people. I do again and appeared to people. I do believe that in my honesty of my heart. believe that in my honesty of my heart. believe that in my honesty of my heart. I know I have massive bias. I grew up in I know I have massive bias. I grew up in I know I have massive bias. I grew up in the West. I grew up in this culture. If the West. I grew up in this culture. If the West. I grew up in this culture. If I was in Saudi Arabia, I'm sure I'd have I was in Saudi Arabia, I'm sure I'd have I was in Saudi Arabia, I'm sure I'd have a completely different view if I was I I a completely different view if I was I I a completely different view if I was I I I completely understand that argument I completely understand that argument I completely understand that argument and there's a lot of weight to it, you and there's a lot of weight to it, you and there's a lot of weight to it, you know, as Christophitchen points out. But know, as Christophitchen points out. But know, as Christophitchen points out. But I I I can't help what I know and I can't I I I can't help what I know and I can't I I I can't help what I know and I can't help what I believe. Even if it is my help what I believe. Even if it is my help what I believe. Even if it is my product and my circumstance, I do product and my circumstance, I do product and my circumstance, I do believe Jesus was Lord, Jesus was the believe Jesus was Lord, Jesus was the believe Jesus was Lord, Jesus was the Messiah. Um, Messiah. Um, Messiah. Um, and it's it's a very interesting and it's it's a very interesting and it's it's a very interesting dialogue here um about that. And but I dialogue here um about that. And but I dialogue here um about that. And but I do like how Bart separates it because do like how Bart separates it because do like how Bart separates it because it's easy when you have arguments or to it's easy when you have arguments or to it's easy when you have arguments or to kind of chuck so many things at someone kind of chuck so many things at someone kind of chuck so many things at someone and then kind of scrabble pieces

and then kind of scrabble pieces and then kind of scrabble pieces together and dissect it. But Bart's very together and dissect it. But Bart's very together and dissect it. But Bart's very concise and he's like, "No, let's pick concise and he's like, "No, let's pick concise and he's like, "No, let's pick apart this, let's pick apart that, let's apart this, let's pick apart that, let's apart this, let's pick apart that, let's pick." And Justin's making a point, pick." And Justin's making a point, pick." And Justin's making a point, well, no, it's it's a plethora of things well, no, it's it's a plethora of things well, no, it's it's a plethora of things that that add the way, add the magnitude that that add the way, add the magnitude that that add the way, add the magnitude to, you know, Jesus claiming to be God to, you know, Jesus claiming to be God to, you know, Jesus claiming to be God being the truth. So, it's a very being the truth. So, it's a very being the truth. So, it's a very interesting exchange here. apocalyptic interesting exchange here. apocalyptic interesting exchange here. apocalyptic Jew think if they see somebody who had Jew think if they see somebody who had Jew think if they see somebody who had died who's alive now. Now when you see died who's alive now. Now when you see died who's alive now. Now when you see your grandmother in your bedroom two your grandmother in your bedroom two your grandmother in your bedroom two weeks after she died typically today weeks after she died typically today weeks after she died typically today this happens a lot. One out of eight this happens a lot. One out of eight this happens a lot. One out of eight people in our country have a vision of a people in our country have a vision of a people in our country have a vision of a deceased loved one and are convinced deceased loved one and are convinced deceased loved one and are convinced they're alive again or that they're they're alive again or that they're they're alive again or that they're alive. In our context we believe that alive. In our context we believe that alive. In our context we believe that the body and the soul are separable and the body and the soul are separable and the body and the soul are separable and the soul lives on afterwards. So when the soul lives on afterwards. So when the soul lives on afterwards. So when you see your grandmother in your bedroom you see your grandmother in your bedroom you see your grandmother in your bedroom as one out of eight people, not as one out of eight people, not as one out of eight people, not necessarily your grand but some some necessarily your grand but some some necessarily your grand but some some beloved one, um typically what you think beloved one, um typically what you think beloved one, um typically what you think is their soul's gone to heaven and is their soul's gone to heaven and is their soul's gone to heaven and they've come down to visit me because they've come down to visit me because they've come down to visit me because that's our mentality of an afterlife. that's our mentality of an afterlife. that's our mentality of an afterlife. >> But you >> But you >> But you >> apocalypticists don't have that. They >> apocalypticists don't have that. They >> apocalypticists don't have that. They don't have that view. Their view is that don't have that view. Their view is that don't have that view. Their view is that if somebody's alive after they died, it if somebody's alive after they died, it if somebody's alive after they died, it has to be a resurrection because the has to be a resurrection because the has to be a resurrection because the soul doesn't exist outside the body.

soul doesn't exist outside the body. soul doesn't exist outside the body. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. really pushes a really pushes a really pushes a assertion there of how an apocalyptic assertion there of how an apocalyptic assertion there of how an apocalyptic Jew would think, right? And the question Jew would think, right? And the question Jew would think, right? And the question there is, is it true to affirm that? there is, is it true to affirm that? there is, is it true to affirm that? Now, I would argue bar is an extremely Now, I would argue bar is an extremely Now, I would argue bar is an extremely knowledgeable guy. He is knows the knowledgeable guy. He is knows the knowledgeable guy. He is knows the Bible. He knows what Jews thought for Bible. He knows what Jews thought for Bible. He knows what Jews thought for back to front. And I do think there's a back to front. And I do think there's a back to front. And I do think there's a lot of validity to him saying that. I'll lot of validity to him saying that. I'll lot of validity to him saying that. I'll be honest, I do not know enough about be honest, I do not know enough about be honest, I do not know enough about it. I have not studied enough about it it. I have not studied enough about it it. I have not studied enough about it to question if he's right or wrong to question if he's right or wrong to question if he's right or wrong there. And Justin's response, there. And Justin's response, there. And Justin's response, if what Bart says is true, does really if what Bart says is true, does really if what Bart says is true, does really need to counter that because it then it need to counter that because it then it need to counter that because it then it pushes a plausible case for why they pushes a plausible case for why they pushes a plausible case for why they would have thought that this, you know, would have thought that this, you know, would have thought that this, you know, Jesus of Nazareth was raised from the Jesus of Nazareth was raised from the Jesus of Nazareth was raised from the dead. dead. dead. >> So when they see Jesus, he's got to have >> So when they see Jesus, he's got to have >> So when they see Jesus, he's got to have a soul back in the body, which means God a soul back in the body, which means God a soul back in the body, which means God has raised him from the dead. That's the has raised him from the dead. That's the has raised him from the dead. That's the first thing they know, and they don't first thing they know, and they don't first thing they know, and they don't have any theology about it. It's just, have any theology about it. It's just, have any theology about it. It's just, "Oh my god, he's come back from the "Oh my god, he's come back from the "Oh my god, he's come back from the dead." And then they work it out. dead." And then they work it out. dead." And then they work it out. >> Great response, and we'll go to a break. >> Great response, and we'll go to a break. >> Great response, and we'll go to a break. No, Josephus, for example, definitely No, Josephus, for example, definitely No, Josephus, for example, definitely believes souls exist.

believes souls exist. believes souls exist. >> He's not an apocalyptic Jew. >> He's not an apocalyptic Jew. >> He's not an apocalyptic Jew. >> Why not? >> Why not? >> Why not? >> He's he's anti-apocalyptic. If you I >> He's he's anti-apocalyptic. If you I >> He's he's anti-apocalyptic. If you I don't know if you've studied Josephus. don't know if you've studied Josephus. don't know if you've studied Josephus. Josephus is famously anti-apocalyptic. Josephus is famously anti-apocalyptic. Josephus is famously anti-apocalyptic. We're talking about apocalyptic Jews. We're talking about apocalyptic Jews. We're talking about apocalyptic Jews. >> He Bart assumes that they just saw >> He Bart assumes that they just saw >> He Bart assumes that they just saw something, but he hasn't explained to us something, but he hasn't explained to us something, but he hasn't explained to us what they saw. And whatever they saw what they saw. And whatever they saw what they saw. And whatever they saw changed their complete worldview. changed their complete worldview. changed their complete worldview. >> I don't know what you see when you see >> I don't know what you see when you see >> I don't know what you see when you see your grandmother either. your grandmother either. your grandmother either. >> Okay. But I definitely don't say she >> Okay. But I definitely don't say she >> Okay. But I definitely don't say she she's raised from the dead. You say she's raised from the dead. You say she's raised from the dead. You say she's still alive. she's still alive. she's still alive. >> Well, but she's still dead though, >> Well, but she's still dead though, >> Well, but she's still dead though, right? right? right? >> G in Jesus' case, my point is >> G in Jesus' case, my point is >> G in Jesus' case, my point is >> No, in our case, if you if you're going >> No, in our case, if you if you're going >> No, in our case, if you if you're going to use that parallel, in our case, when to use that parallel, in our case, when to use that parallel, in our case, when we see someone in the afterlife, yes, we we see someone in the afterlife, yes, we we see someone in the afterlife, yes, we think they're still alive in heaven, but think they're still alive in heaven, but think they're still alive in heaven, but we say they're dead here on earth. we say they're dead here on earth. we say they're dead here on earth. >> That's not what the early Christians >> That's not what the early Christians >> That's not what the early Christians said. said. said. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> They said Jesus had risen from the dead. >> They said Jesus had risen from the dead. >> They said Jesus had risen from the dead. >> Right. So, you need to listen. >> Right. So, you need to listen. >> Right. So, you need to listen. >> Crucified man had risen from the dead. >> Crucified man had risen from the dead. >> Crucified man had risen from the dead. >> Yes. You need to listen to why that is. >> Yes. You need to listen to why that is. >> Yes. You need to listen to why that is. We say their body is dead and their soul We say their body is dead and their soul We say their body is dead and their soul is alive because we believe in the is alive because we believe in the is alive because we believe in the difference between the body and the difference between the body and the difference between the body and the soul. Apocalyptic Jews did not. They soul. Apocalyptic Jews did not. They soul. Apocalyptic Jews did not. They could not say that a soul is still could not say that a soul is still could not say that a soul is still living because he can't his body can't living because he can't his body can't living because he can't his body can't be alive unless his soul comes back into be alive unless his soul comes back into be alive unless his soul comes back into it. They don't have our view of the it. They don't have our view of the it. They don't have our view of the separation of body.

separation of body. separation of body. >> I disagree with and that's that's the >> I disagree with and that's that's the >> I disagree with and that's that's the big contention is the way bar is big contention is the way bar is big contention is the way bar is describing apocalyptic Jew historically describing apocalyptic Jew historically describing apocalyptic Jew historically correct. That's the crux of what he's correct. That's the crux of what he's correct. That's the crux of what he's saying there. And that is why ladies and saying there. And that is why ladies and saying there. And that is why ladies and gentlemen, I want to find out as much gentlemen, I want to find out as much gentlemen, I want to find out as much possible about history, Judaism, possible about history, Judaism, possible about history, Judaism, uh the early followers as possible. And uh the early followers as possible. And uh the early followers as possible. And yeah, if you do want to find out more yeah, if you do want to find out more yeah, if you do want to find out more with me on my journey, my quest for with me on my journey, my quest for with me on my journey, my quest for knowledge, and do subscribe, like, and knowledge, and do subscribe, like, and knowledge, and do subscribe, like, and all that good stuff and check out my all that good stuff and check out my all that good stuff and check out my Substack, it's the link below. That Substack, it's the link below. That Substack, it's the link below. That would mean a lot. And you know, Bartman, would mean a lot. And you know, Bartman, would mean a lot. And you know, Bartman, what an incredible man. I'm a Christian, what an incredible man. I'm a Christian, what an incredible man. I'm a Christian, but I think he is an incredible thinker but I think he is an incredible thinker but I think he is an incredible thinker and I really love his truth seeeking and I really love his truth seeeking and I really love his truth seeeking where it comes from. What an incredible where it comes from. What an incredible where it comes from. What an incredible man. Um, yeah, to I I just love watching man. Um, yeah, to I I just love watching man. Um, yeah, to I I just love watching Bartman. I really do. He's just a Bartman. I really do. He's just a Bartman. I really do. He's just a phenomenal thinker. And I think as phenomenal thinker. And I think as phenomenal thinker. And I think as Christians, we should never be afraid, Christians, we should never be afraid, Christians, we should never be afraid, as I always say, of the truth, of as I always say, of the truth, of as I always say, of the truth, of uncomfortable things we don't like to be uncomfortable things we don't like to be uncomfortable things we don't like to be true. You know, there's a lot out there. true. You know, there's a lot out there. true. You know, there's a lot out there. Like for instance, I was speaking to a Like for instance, I was speaking to a Like for instance, I was speaking to a friend of mine who studied theology, did friend of mine who studied theology, did friend of mine who studied theology, did a degree, and she was saying how the a degree, and she was saying how the a degree, and she was saying how the view like in Paul, I think it's in view like in Paul, I think it's in view like in Paul, I think it's in Ephesians, I'm probably getting it Ephesians, I'm probably getting it Ephesians, I'm probably getting it right. Maybe it's Corinthians where he right. Maybe it's Corinthians where he right. Maybe it's Corinthians where he says, you know, neither Jew nor Gentile says, you know, neither Jew nor Gentile says, you know, neither Jew nor Gentile nor Greek is separate in the kingdom of nor Greek is separate in the kingdom of nor Greek is separate in the kingdom of God. I'm paraphrase I'm probably God. I'm paraphrase I'm probably God. I'm paraphrase I'm probably butchering it, but apparently there was butchering it, but apparently there was butchering it, but apparently there was a discovery decades earlier to supposed a discovery decades earlier to supposed a discovery decades earlier to supposed when that was written of another person when that was written of another person when that was written of another person actually saying that. And it does beg actually saying that. And it does beg actually saying that. And it does beg the question, was that you know if if the question, was that you know if if the question, was that you know if if something was written decades before

something was written decades before something was written decades before Paul wrote it, was was that in divinely Paul wrote it, was was that in divinely Paul wrote it, was was that in divinely inspired? Was it as Timothy says, God inspired? Was it as Timothy says, God inspired? Was it as Timothy says, God breathed? Was it or was it a breathed? Was it or was it a breathed? Was it or was it a regurgitation or a And that's an regurgitation or a And that's an regurgitation or a And that's an uncomfortable truth. And if that's true, uncomfortable truth. And if that's true, uncomfortable truth. And if that's true, that does change the way we view it. But that does change the way we view it. But that does change the way we view it. But you know, as as the act bishop of Kanby you know, as as the act bishop of Kanby you know, as as the act bishop of Kanby speaks about, you know, God can't help speaks about, you know, God can't help speaks about, you know, God can't help being God. And the fantasies and being God. And the fantasies and being God. And the fantasies and conceptions we have of God will conceptions we have of God will conceptions we have of God will disintegrate into nothing. And we will disintegrate into nothing. And we will disintegrate into nothing. And we will see what is left. And I think there's so see what is left. And I think there's so see what is left. And I think there's so much wisdom in that. You know, if you're much wisdom in that. You know, if you're much wisdom in that. You know, if you're truly seeking truth with your heart, you truly seeking truth with your heart, you truly seeking truth with your heart, you know, we will find out what is true. And know, we will find out what is true. And know, we will find out what is true. And there's so much complexity and nuances there's so much complexity and nuances there's so much complexity and nuances to everything. But I think exposing to everything. But I think exposing to everything. But I think exposing yourself to difference of opinion, to yourself to difference of opinion, to yourself to difference of opinion, to views you don't like, that do kind of views you don't like, that do kind of views you don't like, that do kind of nag you in your brain, that do make you nag you in your brain, that do make you nag you in your brain, that do make you think, well, maybe I'm wrong here, is is think, well, maybe I'm wrong here, is is think, well, maybe I'm wrong here, is is is super healthy and we should all is super healthy and we should all is super healthy and we should all really do it. Whether you're Christian, really do it. Whether you're Christian, really do it. Whether you're Christian, whether you're atheist, we should all whether you're atheist, we should all whether you're atheist, we should all drown ourselves in the opposite side of drown ourselves in the opposite side of drown ourselves in the opposite side of of opinion because that's where we of opinion because that's where we of opinion because that's where we really find out what we think ourselves, really find out what we think ourselves, really find out what we think ourselves, you know, and there's so much nuance and you know, and there's so much nuance and you know, and there's so much nuance and amazing things part of the world. And I amazing things part of the world. And I amazing things part of the world. And I hope people who do follow this channel hope people who do follow this channel hope people who do follow this channel do appreciate that because that is what do appreciate that because that is what do appreciate that because that is what I really want to put across and do with I really want to put across and do with I really want to put across and do with this channel. I want this to be like I this channel. I want this to be like I this channel. I want this to be like I am trying to find out what the hell is am trying to find out what the hell is am trying to find out what the hell is reality. What what is truth? You know, reality. What what is truth? You know, reality. What what is truth? You know, and I hope that someone else who who and I hope that someone else who who and I hope that someone else who who holds the same hunger in their heart as holds the same hunger in their heart as holds the same hunger in their heart as me with that does enjoy this. So, thanks me with that does enjoy this. So, thanks me with that does enjoy this. So, thanks for being here. Love you all and I'll for being here. Love you all and I'll for being here. Love you all and I'll see you in the next one. Peace.