Bart Ehrman RATTLED When Sean McDowell Asks This Crucial Question

Some moral claims depend upon the Some moral claims depend upon the situation, situation, situation, but that doesn't make them necessarily but that doesn't make them necessarily but that doesn't make them necessarily subjective. So, for example, the claim I subjective. So, for example, the claim I subjective. So, for example, the claim I mean So, in your book, I mean we could mean So, in your book, I mean we could mean So, in your book, I mean we could jump straight to the case as you condemn jump straight to the case as you condemn jump straight to the case as you condemn anti-Semitism anti-Semitism anti-Semitism and violence against Jews, which you and violence against Jews, which you and violence against Jews, which you argue led to the Holocaust. So, let's argue led to the Holocaust. So, let's argue led to the Holocaust. So, let's talk about that one. Are there talk about that one. Are there talk about that one. Are there circumstances circumstances circumstances that would make that okay, or is it that would make that okay, or is it that would make that okay, or is it universally wrong to do what universally wrong to do what universally wrong to do what the Nazis did against the Jews? the Nazis did against the Jews? the Nazis did against the Jews? I don't have any access to any kind of I don't have any access to any kind of I don't have any access to any kind of universal objectivity. universal objectivity. universal objectivity. I'm a human being, I'm a human being, I'm a human being, and I have um thoughts and views. and I have um thoughts and views. and I have um thoughts and views. So, do you. So, do you. So, do you. Um if there were something that was a Um if there were something that was a Um if there were something that was a universally objective moral value, our universally objective moral value, our universally objective moral value, our only access to it would be through our only access to it would be through our only access to it would be through our brains. brains. brains. And our brains are um our brains are And our brains are um our brains are And our brains are um our brains are objects. objects. objects. You have uh roughly 100 billion neurons You have uh roughly 100 billion neurons You have uh roughly 100 billion neurons in yours. I've got a few less in mine.

in yours. I've got a few less in mine. in yours. I've got a few less in mine. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Uh but um >> Uh but um >> Uh but um since our recognition of morality since our recognition of morality since our recognition of morality is based on our human perception, is based on our human perception, is based on our human perception, even if you want to claim that there's even if you want to claim that there's even if you want to claim that there's some kind of moral objectivity, some kind of moral objectivity, some kind of moral objectivity, we have no direct access to it except we have no direct access to it except we have no direct access to it except through our subjectivity. through our subjectivity. through our subjectivity. Interesting point Ball makes there, but Interesting point Ball makes there, but Interesting point Ball makes there, but I also want to just make the point about I also want to just make the point about I also want to just make the point about how this is the issue with a how this is the issue with a how this is the issue with a naturalistic worldview. When something naturalistic worldview. When something naturalistic worldview. When something atrocious, and it's such a basic point, atrocious, and it's such a basic point, atrocious, and it's such a basic point, but when something atrocious happens but when something atrocious happens but when something atrocious happens like we saw under Nazi Germany, and the like we saw under Nazi Germany, and the like we saw under Nazi Germany, and the absolute atrocities committed, if we absolute atrocities committed, if we absolute atrocities committed, if we cannot say as humanity that that is cannot say as humanity that that is cannot say as humanity that that is wrong, then can we really say anything wrong, then can we really say anything wrong, then can we really say anything is wrong? Is there a universal truth to is wrong? Is there a universal truth to is wrong? Is there a universal truth to evil? Is there a realm that is is evil? Is there a realm that is is evil? Is there a realm that is is objectively wrong, objectively evil? objectively wrong, objectively evil? objectively wrong, objectively evil? Because having simply a naturalistic Because having simply a naturalistic Because having simply a naturalistic worldview. So, I think Bart really shows worldview. So, I think Bart really shows worldview. So, I think Bart really shows himself up. Now, I absolutely love Bart himself up. Now, I absolutely love Bart himself up. Now, I absolutely love Bart Ehrman to bits. He is my favorite Ehrman to bits. He is my favorite Ehrman to bits. He is my favorite historian. I know I'm a Christian. I historian. I know I'm a Christian. I historian. I know I'm a Christian. I adore Bart Ehrman. But this is one one adore Bart Ehrman. But this is one one adore Bart Ehrman. But this is one one time actually when I've seen him in a time actually when I've seen him in a time actually when I've seen him in a podcast and I've seen he knows, I think, podcast and I've seen he knows, I think, podcast and I've seen he knows, I think, a little bit how crazy that sounds. And a little bit how crazy that sounds. And a little bit how crazy that sounds. And he knows that that view doesn't really he knows that that view doesn't really he knows that that view doesn't really hold that much weight. Now, he's making hold that much weight. Now, he's making hold that much weight. Now, he's making the point about how this is just my the point about how this is just my the point about how this is just my view. This is just how my brain view. This is just how my brain view. This is just how my brain calculated that this was wrong. But calculated that this was wrong. But calculated that this was wrong. But again, if we cannot collectively say again, if we cannot collectively say again, if we cannot collectively say that something that atrocious atrocious that something that atrocious atrocious that something that atrocious atrocious like the Holocaust is wrong, like the Holocaust is wrong, like the Holocaust is wrong, we're in a we're in a lost world. We're

we're in a we're in a lost world. We're we're in a we're in a lost world. We're in a place of no order. And us humans do in a place of no order. And us humans do in a place of no order. And us humans do crave order. And you could say, "Well, crave order. And you could say, "Well, crave order. And you could say, "Well, that's a reason to show it's not true that's a reason to show it's not true that's a reason to show it's not true because we want it to be true in that because we want it to be true in that because we want it to be true in that sense." But But it's interesting cuz he sense." But But it's interesting cuz he sense." But But it's interesting cuz he kind of makes the point C.S. Lewis kind of makes the point C.S. Lewis kind of makes the point C.S. Lewis makes. makes. makes. But the point C.S. Lewis makes is the But the point C.S. Lewis makes is the But the point C.S. Lewis makes is the argument he's perpetrating here cannot argument he's perpetrating here cannot argument he's perpetrating here cannot be right for the same reason he's be right for the same reason he's be right for the same reason he's making. So, let's listen to Clive making. So, let's listen to Clive making. So, let's listen to Clive Staples Lewis who who says it far better Staples Lewis who who says it far better Staples Lewis who who says it far better than I can. "Minds are wholly dependent than I can. "Minds are wholly dependent than I can. "Minds are wholly dependent on brains and brains on biochemistry and on brains and brains on biochemistry and on brains and brains on biochemistry and biochemistry in the long run on the biochemistry in the long run on the biochemistry in the long run on the meaningless flux of atoms. I cannot meaningless flux of atoms. I cannot meaningless flux of atoms. I cannot understand how the thought of those understand how the thought of those understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance minds should have any more significance minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the than the sound of the wind in the than the sound of the wind in the trees." And that's kind of in a way the trees." And that's kind of in a way the trees." And that's kind of in a way the point Bart's making. However, there is a point Bart's making. However, there is a point Bart's making. However, there is a caveat to this. And this is another caveat to this. And this is another caveat to this. And this is another quote from Clive Staples Lewis, which is quote from Clive Staples Lewis, which is quote from Clive Staples Lewis, which is also about how can we trust that view also about how can we trust that view also about how can we trust that view within itself is correct? Why should within itself is correct? Why should within itself is correct? Why should like we are just incomplete chaos. There like we are just incomplete chaos. There like we are just incomplete chaos. There is no order whatsoever even to the point is no order whatsoever even to the point is no order whatsoever even to the point where the view we have of order in that where the view we have of order in that where the view we have of order in that sense is wrong. I don't know if that sense is wrong. I don't know if that sense is wrong. I don't know if that makes sense, but here we have C.S.

makes sense, but here we have C.S. makes sense, but here we have C.S. Lewis. "Supposing there was no Lewis. "Supposing there was no Lewis. "Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no intelligence behind the universe, no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody creative mind. In that case, nobody creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of designed my brain for the purpose of designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the thinking. It is merely that when the thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen for atoms inside my skull happen for atoms inside my skull happen for physical chemical reasons to arrange physical chemical reasons to arrange physical chemical reasons to arrange themselves in a certain way that gives themselves in a certain way that gives themselves in a certain way that gives me a byproduct the sensation I call me a byproduct the sensation I call me a byproduct the sensation I call thought. But if so, how can I trust my thought. But if so, how can I trust my thought. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like own thinking to be true? It's like own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a way it splashes itself will give you a way it splashes itself will give you a map of London, which is pretty much what map of London, which is pretty much what map of London, which is pretty much what Bart Ehrman says in a way there. Bart Ehrman says in a way there. Bart Ehrman says in a way there. However, but if I can't trust my own However, but if I can't trust my own However, but if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the thinking, of course I can't trust the thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to atheism, and arguments leading to atheism, and arguments leading to atheism, and therefore I have no reason to be an therefore I have no reason to be an therefore I have no reason to be an atheist or anything else. Unless I atheist or anything else. Unless I atheist or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in believe in God, I cannot believe in believe in God, I cannot believe in thoughts. So I can never use thought to thoughts. So I can never use thought to thoughts. So I can never use thought to disbelieve God. So this is a really disbelieve God. So this is a really disbelieve God. So this is a really really instrumental argument basically really instrumental argument basically really instrumental argument basically because Bart is asserting a position because Bart is asserting a position because Bart is asserting a position there that there is no universal truth. there that there is no universal truth. there that there is no universal truth. He He believes that. However, how can he He He believes that. However, how can he He He believes that. However, how can he actually have that belief? So we'll hear actually have that belief? So we'll hear actually have that belief? So we'll hear more from this debate, but look, ladies more from this debate, but look, ladies more from this debate, but look, ladies and gentlemen, I have followed Bart and gentlemen, I have followed Bart and gentlemen, I have followed Bart Ehrman for a while. I've I've seen many Ehrman for a while. I've I've seen many Ehrman for a while. I've I've seen many debates. I've seen many lectures. And debates. I've seen many lectures. And debates. I've seen many lectures. And And Sean McDowell here does a phenomenal And Sean McDowell here does a phenomenal And Sean McDowell here does a phenomenal job. My absolute hats off to him. So job. My absolute hats off to him. So job. My absolute hats off to him. So good faith come from a good heart good faith come from a good heart good faith come from a good heart posture, searching for the truth, is posture, searching for the truth, is posture, searching for the truth, is wildly smarter than I could ever dream wildly smarter than I could ever dream wildly smarter than I could ever dream of being. So I absolutely I mean just of being. So I absolutely I mean just of being. So I absolutely I mean just buzzing watching this to be honest, and buzzing watching this to be honest, and buzzing watching this to be honest, and I hope you are as well. There might be a I hope you are as well. There might be a I hope you are as well. There might be a confusion between how we know things and confusion between how we know things and confusion between how we know things and whether or not something is actually whether or not something is actually whether or not something is actually true. So historical claims in the past,

true. So historical claims in the past, true. So historical claims in the past, which you claim are objective, we have which you claim are objective, we have which you claim are objective, we have to we know them. to we know them. to we know them. Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so let me ask you this. You think some of let me ask you this. You think some of let me ask you this. You think some of your views about the New Testament your views about the New Testament your views about the New Testament are right and Christians are wrong. are right and Christians are wrong. are right and Christians are wrong. Do you hold that view? Do you hold that view? Do you hold that view? I've got to say, I just love Bart's I've got to say, I just love Bart's I've got to say, I just love Bart's face. It like He has this way of looking face. It like He has this way of looking face. It like He has this way of looking which is so terrifying. Like I I love which is so terrifying. Like I I love which is so terrifying. Like I I love Bart's face. I'm not saying this is a Bart's face. I'm not saying this is a Bart's face. I'm not saying this is a criticism, but like the way the way he criticism, but like the way the way he criticism, but like the way the way he looks here is just with such authority. looks here is just with such authority. looks here is just with such authority. He's like deadpan. Yes. It's like um it He's like deadpan. Yes. It's like um it He's like deadpan. Yes. It's like um it it's just the it's just the it's just the the way they're talking to you. I find the way they're talking to you. I find the way they're talking to you. I find like there's so much tension there. like there's so much tension there. like there's so much tension there. There's there's so much kind of There's there's so much kind of There's there's so much kind of intellect from both from Bart and Shawn intellect from both from Bart and Shawn intellect from both from Bart and Shawn and it you can just feel and see the and it you can just feel and see the and it you can just feel and see the kind of kind of kind of I don't know, aroma of knowledge I don't know, aroma of knowledge I don't know, aroma of knowledge battling itself out. battling itself out. battling itself out. >> that as a subject, you are the one who >> that as a subject, you are the one who >> that as a subject, you are the one who studies this. And so just because a studies this. And so just because a studies this. And so just because a subject analyzes something doesn't mean subject analyzes something doesn't mean subject analyzes something doesn't mean they don't think they're true and it they don't think they're true and it they don't think they're true and it does mean they're not true. So if that's does mean they're not true. So if that's does mean they're not true. So if that's true for history, if that's true for true for history, if that's true for true for history, if that's true for science, why would that not be true for science, why would that not be true for science, why would that not be true for morality? That just because we're morality? That just because we're morality? That just because we're subjects engaging in something doesn't subjects engaging in something doesn't subjects engaging in something doesn't mean there's no objective truth that we mean there's no objective truth that we mean there's no objective truth that we can debate and we can discuss and we can can debate and we can discuss and we can can debate and we can discuss and we can kind of analyze.

kind of analyze. kind of analyze. I'm saying if there is an objective I'm saying if there is an objective I'm saying if there is an objective truth, we have no access to it as truth, we have no access to it as truth, we have no access to it as subjects. We only have access to what we subjects. We only have access to what we subjects. We only have access to what we think is true. think is true. think is true. And it's not fair to compare history and And it's not fair to compare history and And it's not fair to compare history and science science science because they're very different they have because they're very different they have because they're very different they have different different modes of different different modes of different different modes of establishing their truth claims. establishing their truth claims. establishing their truth claims. Um Um Um historians can only establish the historians can only establish the historians can only establish the probabilities what happened in the past. probabilities what happened in the past. probabilities what happened in the past. Sometimes with relative certainty, Sometimes with relative certainty, Sometimes with relative certainty, virtual certainty for most of us and virtual certainty for most of us and virtual certainty for most of us and sometimes with great uncertainty. sometimes with great uncertainty. sometimes with great uncertainty. Science isn't about predicting the past Science isn't about predicting the past Science isn't about predicting the past or trying to explain the past. It's or trying to explain the past. It's or trying to explain the past. It's about predicting the future. If you do a about predicting the future. If you do a about predicting the future. If you do a chemical experiment and it comes out chemical experiment and it comes out chemical experiment and it comes out certain way and you redo it a thousand certain way and you redo it a thousand certain way and you redo it a thousand times, it comes out the same way every times, it comes out the same way every times, it comes out the same way every time. You use that experiment as a basis time. You use that experiment as a basis time. You use that experiment as a basis then to do the next thing. And so it has then to do the next thing. And so it has then to do the next thing. And so it has predictive value. predictive value. predictive value. Um and so they're they're dealing with Um and so they're they're dealing with Um and so they're they're dealing with different things. History's dealing with different things. History's dealing with different things. History's dealing with the past and probabilities. the past and probabilities. the past and probabilities. Science is based on experimentation for Science is based on experimentation for Science is based on experimentation for predictive values. Different things.

predictive values. Different things. predictive values. Different things. Okay, so I I agree with you on the last Okay, so I I agree with you on the last Okay, so I I agree with you on the last point that you made that how we know point that you made that how we know point that you made that how we know certain truths in history is different certain truths in history is different certain truths in history is different than how we know certain truths in math, than how we know certain truths in math, than how we know certain truths in math, but it's also different than how we know but it's also different than how we know but it's also different than how we know certain truths in morality. certain truths in morality. certain truths in morality. So, if science we know truths maybe by So, if science we know truths maybe by So, if science we know truths maybe by repeating things and having hypotheses repeating things and having hypotheses repeating things and having hypotheses and empirically investigating them, and empirically investigating them, and empirically investigating them, the mere fact that we are subjects the mere fact that we are subjects the mere fact that we are subjects trying to know and analyze something in trying to know and analyze something in trying to know and analyze something in science doesn't mean there's not a science doesn't mean there's not a science doesn't mean there's not a truth. truth. truth. Same thing applies to history. We don't Same thing applies to history. We don't Same thing applies to history. We don't examine and study things in the same way examine and study things in the same way examine and study things in the same way that we do scientifically. There's a that we do scientifically. There's a that we do scientifically. There's a different means to it, but the mere fact different means to it, but the mere fact different means to it, but the mere fact that we are subjects trying to figure that we are subjects trying to figure that we are subjects trying to figure out what is historically true doesn't out what is historically true doesn't out what is historically true doesn't mean there's no objective truth that is mean there's no objective truth that is mean there's no objective truth that is there. there. there. So, my point is that I agree with you So, my point is that I agree with you So, my point is that I agree with you that that that the only way to know that the only way to know that the only way to know that >> there's no access. >> there's no access. >> there's no access. It's interesting that Bart comes in that It's interesting that Bart comes in that It's interesting that Bart comes in that cuz Bart is an incredibly um calm cuz Bart is an incredibly um calm cuz Bart is an incredibly um calm he rarely kind of interrupts and like he rarely kind of interrupts and like he rarely kind of interrupts and like any of that and it's I maybe I'm sure any of that and it's I maybe I'm sure any of that and it's I maybe I'm sure there's a lot of Bart fans listening to there's a lot of Bart fans listening to there's a lot of Bart fans listening to this who are like, "You you are taking this who are like, "You you are taking this who are like, "You you are taking so much that isn't there and kind of so much that isn't there and kind of so much that isn't there and kind of running with it." But I would say in my running with it." But I would say in my running with it." But I would say in my experience of seeing Bart he he's a very experience of seeing Bart he he's a very experience of seeing Bart he he's a very So, the fact that he came in there So, the fact that he came in there So, the fact that he came in there clearly shows that Shawn has pulled the clearly shows that Shawn has pulled the clearly shows that Shawn has pulled the heartstrings, not the heartstrings, but heartstrings, not the heartstrings, but heartstrings, not the heartstrings, but the the the um there's something that has got to um there's something that has got to um there's something that has got to Bart a little bit in what Shawn's saying Bart a little bit in what Shawn's saying Bart a little bit in what Shawn's saying here. Now, I'm not I'm not saying I here. Now, I'm not I'm not saying I here. Now, I'm not I'm not saying I don't know Bart more than Bart I'm in or don't know Bart more than Bart I'm in or don't know Bart more than Bart I'm in or anything like that cuz he is an absolute anything like that cuz he is an absolute anything like that cuz he is an absolute genius and that they both are. But I do

genius and that they both are. But I do genius and that they both are. But I do find this interesting cuz it's one of find this interesting cuz it's one of find this interesting cuz it's one of the few times I would say that Bart was the few times I would say that Bart was the few times I would say that Bart was a little bit rattled here. I've never a little bit rattled here. I've never a little bit rattled here. I've never seen him kind of on the ropes in the way seen him kind of on the ropes in the way seen him kind of on the ropes in the way he is when in this debate. Um correct me he is when in this debate. Um correct me he is when in this debate. Um correct me if I'm wrong, you know, if you don't if I'm wrong, you know, if you don't if I'm wrong, you know, if you don't think that's the case, do let me know, think that's the case, do let me know, think that's the case, do let me know, but I would say this is I one of the few but I would say this is I one of the few but I would say this is I one of the few times where I do see Bart world view times where I do see Bart world view times where I do see Bart world view really some parts not as coherent and really some parts not as coherent and really some parts not as coherent and there's a kind of there's a kind of there's a kind of um um um things that don't line up well and also things that don't line up well and also things that don't line up well and also kind of expose a flaw in the way he kind of expose a flaw in the way he kind of expose a flaw in the way he thinks and his complete dismissal of the thinks and his complete dismissal of the thinks and his complete dismissal of the supernatural realm in that sense and how supernatural realm in that sense and how supernatural realm in that sense and how the naturalistic worldview does kind of the naturalistic worldview does kind of the naturalistic worldview does kind of just collapse when it gets pushed to just collapse when it gets pushed to just collapse when it gets pushed to these extreme examples as Shawn so these extreme examples as Shawn so these extreme examples as Shawn so eloquently says it way better than I eloquently says it way better than I eloquently says it way better than I can. Yeah, we'll we'll see what what can. Yeah, we'll we'll see what what can. Yeah, we'll we'll see what what more is said here. Okay, so my only more is said here. Okay, so my only more is said here. Okay, so my only point so far and I'll come back to that point so far and I'll come back to that point so far and I'll come back to that cuz I think the point you're making is cuz I think the point you're making is cuz I think the point you're making is really important is that there's really important is that there's really important is that there's different ways we know truth in science, different ways we know truth in science, different ways we know truth in science, there's different ways we know truth in there's different ways we know truth in there's different ways we know truth in history, and the mere fact that we are history, and the mere fact that we are history, and the mere fact that we are subjects subjects subjects trying to discover something in trying to discover something in trying to discover something in different means doesn't follow that different means doesn't follow that different means doesn't follow that there's no truth. That's the only there's no truth. That's the only there's no truth. That's the only comparison that I made between history comparison that I made between history comparison that I made between history and between science and then between and between science and then between and between science and then between morality. And so you said we have no morality. And so you said we have no morality. And so you said we have no access to moral truth. I guess I'd say a access to moral truth. I guess I'd say a access to moral truth. I guess I'd say a couple things. I don't know what it couple things. I don't know what it couple things. I don't know what it means to know moral truth through our means to know moral truth through our means to know moral truth through our brains. It makes sense with science brains. It makes sense with science brains. It makes sense with science because we're studying physical matter, because we're studying physical matter, because we're studying physical matter, but moral truths are not physical.

but moral truths are not physical. but moral truths are not physical. They're immaterial. They don't have They're immaterial. They don't have They're immaterial. They don't have weight. So clearly we're going to access weight. So clearly we're going to access weight. So clearly we're going to access them differently than we do science just them differently than we do science just them differently than we do science just like history accesses things differently like history accesses things differently like history accesses things differently than science. So my question is you than science. So my question is you than science. So my question is you said, correct me if I'm wrong, you said said, correct me if I'm wrong, you said said, correct me if I'm wrong, you said we have no access to moral truth. we have no access to moral truth. we have no access to moral truth. Just as yours is your opinion. Just as yours is your opinion. Just as yours is your opinion. See this this is again the the issue See this this is again the the issue See this this is again the the issue with this naturalistic worldview. Like with this naturalistic worldview. Like with this naturalistic worldview. Like if there is no realm that is not of this if there is no realm that is not of this if there is no realm that is not of this world, it does leave you in a place of world, it does leave you in a place of world, it does leave you in a place of chaos. It really does. It is chaos. chaos. It really does. It is chaos. chaos. It really does. It is chaos. There there has to be some order to it There there has to be some order to it There there has to be some order to it because with the chaos, how can you step because with the chaos, how can you step because with the chaos, how can you step a forward a step forward in anything? a forward a step forward in anything? a forward a step forward in anything? How can you say anything's wrong? Um and How can you say anything's wrong? Um and How can you say anything's wrong? Um and I I don't think that the the new atheist I I don't think that the the new atheist I I don't think that the the new atheist movement has really come up with a good movement has really come up with a good movement has really come up with a good response to this. Now Bowman is not part response to this. Now Bowman is not part response to this. Now Bowman is not part of that realm, but I I do think this is of that realm, but I I do think this is of that realm, but I I do think this is just a flaw that I still have not seen a just a flaw that I still have not seen a just a flaw that I still have not seen a good answer on. And I'm complete like if good answer on. And I'm complete like if good answer on. And I'm complete like if there is, please do inform me. I know there is, please do inform me. I know there is, please do inform me. I know there's obviously like Sam Harris's there's obviously like Sam Harris's there's obviously like Sam Harris's arguments and stuff. But, you know, do arguments and stuff. But, you know, do arguments and stuff. But, you know, do inform me if there are good arguments inform me if there are good arguments inform me if there are good arguments against this. But, I I just I really see against this. But, I I just I really see against this. But, I I just I really see see that being the case. And even the see that being the case. And even the see that being the case. And even the incredible part of it here, I think does incredible part of it here, I think does incredible part of it here, I think does fall short a bit in responding to this.

fall short a bit in responding to this. fall short a bit in responding to this. Um but yeah, we'll see what else. Most Um but yeah, we'll see what else. Most Um but yeah, we'll see what else. Most people would agree with this. people would agree with this. people would agree with this. They would say They would say They would say torturing a child for fun or burning a torturing a child for fun or burning a torturing a child for fun or burning a child alive child alive child alive for adult's pleasure is wrong. Now, I for adult's pleasure is wrong. Now, I for adult's pleasure is wrong. Now, I have no problem. I'm a I'm about as have no problem. I'm a I'm about as have no problem. I'm a I'm about as close to being 100% certain as possible close to being 100% certain as possible close to being 100% certain as possible that torturing a child for adult that torturing a child for adult that torturing a child for adult entertainment is wrong. Now, we don't entertainment is wrong. Now, we don't entertainment is wrong. Now, we don't know that the way we know science and know that the way we know science and know that the way we know science and history. history. history. We know it intuitively and naturally by We know it intuitively and naturally by We know it intuitively and naturally by reflecting upon it. reflecting upon it. reflecting upon it. So, do you agree with me that burning a So, do you agree with me that burning a So, do you agree with me that burning a child alive for adult entertainment is child alive for adult entertainment is child alive for adult entertainment is wrong? wrong? wrong? Yes. Okay, so I guess I'm confused Yes. Okay, so I guess I'm confused Yes. Okay, so I guess I'm confused because you said it's only a matter of because you said it's only a matter of because you said it's only a matter of opinion, but now you agree that this is opinion, but now you agree that this is opinion, but now you agree that this is wrong. wrong. wrong. >> I didn't say that was a matter of >> I didn't say that was a matter of >> I didn't say that was a matter of opinion. opinion. opinion. I'm saying you and I have opinions about I'm saying you and I have opinions about I'm saying you and I have opinions about things. Sure. Those things. Sure. Those things. Sure. Those If you have an opinion, I have an If you have an opinion, I have an If you have an opinion, I have an opinion. What's the objective truth? opinion. What's the objective truth? opinion. What's the objective truth? Other The objective truth is we have Other The objective truth is we have Other The objective truth is we have different opinions.

different opinions. different opinions. But, how do you use objective truth in But, how do you use objective truth in But, how do you use objective truth in order to establish that you're right order to establish that you're right order to establish that you're right about either a historical claim or a about either a historical claim or a about either a historical claim or a moral claim and that I'm empirically moral claim and that I'm empirically moral claim and that I'm empirically wrong? How do I do that? How do I do that? >> it out. You're doing it by your reason. >> it out. You're doing it by your reason. >> it out. You're doing it by your reason. You're thinking about it. That's right. You're thinking about it. That's right. You're thinking about it. That's right. Other people think about it and have Other people think about it and have Other people think about it and have different views. Not about everything. different views. Not about everything. different views. Not about everything. Most people do agree Most people do agree Most people do agree uh that uh that uh that when they were seeing me here, they'd when they were seeing me here, they'd when they were seeing me here, they'd agree I was sitting in a chair. I am agree I was sitting in a chair. I am agree I was sitting in a chair. I am sitting in a chair. sitting in a chair. sitting in a chair. Yeah. Me, too. But, what good does it do Yeah. Me, too. But, what good does it do Yeah. Me, too. But, what good does it do to say that there are moral objectives to say that there are moral objectives to say that there are moral objectives unless you can isolate all of them? Uh why would we have to be able to Uh why would we have to be able to isolate all of them if there's one thing isolate all of them if there's one thing isolate all of them if there's one thing that's morally wrong? That's all we that's morally wrong? That's all we that's morally wrong? That's all we need. Then we have objective need. Then we have objective need. Then we have objective >> Again, this is the point C.S. Lewis >> Again, this is the point C.S. Lewis >> Again, this is the point C.S. Lewis makes. If your argument is to disprove makes. If your argument is to disprove makes. If your argument is to disprove something, how can you trust in the something, how can you trust in the something, how can you trust in the first place? Like he says, we need to be first place? Like he says, we need to be first place? Like he says, we need to be able to isolate them. Well, why do we able to isolate them. Well, why do we able to isolate them. Well, why do we need to be able to isolate them? need to be able to isolate them? need to be able to isolate them? You know, it goes back to that point. If You know, it goes back to that point. If You know, it goes back to that point. If you strip it back, you strip it back, you strip it back, it falls apart. Why do you need to it falls apart. Why do you need to it falls apart. Why do you need to isolate them? Why can you trust that isolate them? Why can you trust that isolate them? Why can you trust that that's the way to find out about that's the way to find out about that's the way to find out about objective truth? What Why is that the objective truth? What Why is that the objective truth? What Why is that the reason?

reason? reason? I do feel it falls apart because again, I do feel it falls apart because again, I do feel it falls apart because again, why trust that? Why trust that that's why trust that? Why trust that that's why trust that? Why trust that that's correct? Yeah, let me know in the correct? Yeah, let me know in the correct? Yeah, let me know in the comments you've got an answer that would comments you've got an answer that would comments you've got an answer that would be interesting. be interesting. be interesting. >> We can't know certain moral truths >> We can't know certain moral truths >> We can't know certain moral truths unless we know that all moral truths unless we know that all moral truths unless we know that all moral truths like you kind of made a universal like you kind of made a universal like you kind of made a universal statement about the number of moral statement about the number of moral statement about the number of moral truths we have to say. I'm simply saying truths we have to say. I'm simply saying truths we have to say. I'm simply saying >> No. If there's one Let me make Let me >> No. If there's one Let me make Let me >> No. If there's one Let me make Let me make this point. If there's one make this point. If there's one make this point. If there's one >> That's not what I said. Okay, then >> That's not what I said. Okay, then >> That's not what I said. Okay, then correct me. I didn't want to misstate correct me. I didn't want to misstate correct me. I didn't want to misstate you. Go ahead. you. Go ahead. you. Go ahead. I didn't say that. I said that if you I didn't say that. I said that if you I didn't say that. I said that if you think there are objectively moral facts, think there are objectively moral facts, think there are objectively moral facts, why can't you isolate them? why can't you isolate them? why can't you isolate them? I don't know what it means. I don't know what it means. I don't know what it means. >> they >> they >> they exist. If they couldn't exist, I didn't exist. If they couldn't exist, I didn't exist. If they couldn't exist, I didn't say that. I said if they are there, why say that. I said if they are there, why say that. I said if they are there, why can't you name them? can't you name them? can't you name them? Okay, so I certainly don't want to Okay, so I certainly don't want to Okay, so I certainly don't want to misstate your argument. Thank you for misstate your argument. Thank you for misstate your argument. Thank you for correcting that. But I don't know what correcting that. But I don't know what correcting that. But I don't know what it means to isolate them. I can state it means to isolate them. I can state it means to isolate them. I can state them. It seems that you you agreed with them. It seems that you you agreed with them. It seems that you you agreed with me me me that torturing a child for adult that torturing a child for adult that torturing a child for adult entertainment is wrong. That's a entertainment is wrong. That's a entertainment is wrong. That's a universal moral truth.

universal moral truth. universal moral truth. Oh, no, I don't think it is. Oh, no, I don't think it is. Oh, no, I don't think it is. Okay. Okay. Okay. You don't think that's You don't think that's You don't think that's >> In >> In >> In um for example, people were also human um for example, people were also human um for example, people were also human beings often practiced child sacrifice. beings often practiced child sacrifice. beings often practiced child sacrifice. It was often very painful. It was often very painful. It was often very painful. They thought it was the right thing to They thought it was the right thing to They thought it was the right thing to do. do. do. Now, you could claim they didn't Now, you could claim they didn't Now, you could claim they didn't understand the objective truths of understand the objective truths of understand the objective truths of morality. morality. morality. Or Or Or you could say that actually, um, you you could say that actually, um, you you could say that actually, um, you know, this moral truth that we thought know, this moral truth that we thought know, this moral truth that we thought was objective and available to everybody was objective and available to everybody was objective and available to everybody was not available to them. Or we could was not available to them. Or we could was not available to them. Or we could say, a third option, say, a third option, say, a third option, they did have a moral sense, and this they did have a moral sense, and this they did have a moral sense, and this would get us into Lewis's argument, that would get us into Lewis's argument, that would get us into Lewis's argument, that you seem to agree with that there's at you seem to agree with that there's at you seem to agree with that there's at least certain universal or commonly least certain universal or commonly least certain universal or commonly experienced Maybe I won't use the word experienced Maybe I won't use the word experienced Maybe I won't use the word universal. Commonly experienced moral universal. Commonly experienced moral universal. Commonly experienced moral principles, such as for posterity, principles, such as for posterity, principles, such as for posterity, caring for our kids, such as loving caring for our kids, such as loving caring for our kids, such as loving others in a certain fashion, uh, mercy, others in a certain fashion, uh, mercy, others in a certain fashion, uh, mercy, justice. These seem to transcend justice. These seem to transcend justice. These seem to transcend culture. So, I have I have no problem culture. So, I have I have no problem culture. So, I have I have no problem Let me make this quick point. I've no Let me make this quick point. I've no Let me make this quick point. I've no problem pointing back to those who problem pointing back to those who problem pointing back to those who sacrificed their kids, practiced sacrificed their kids, practiced sacrificed their kids, practiced cannibalism, some of the things that we cannibalism, some of the things that we cannibalism, some of the things that we see in the Old Testament and saying, see in the Old Testament and saying, see in the Old Testament and saying, "Oh, they were doing what was morally "Oh, they were doing what was morally "Oh, they were doing what was morally wrong, and they should have known better wrong, and they should have known better wrong, and they should have known better because they have access to basic moral because they have access to basic moral because they have access to basic moral principles, and we have morally improved principles, and we have morally improved principles, and we have morally improved since that time." I have no problem since that time." I have no problem since that time." I have no problem saying that, and I think the vast saying that, and I think the vast saying that, and I think the vast majority people would be with me, just

majority people would be with me, just majority people would be with me, just like our science is better, our history like our science is better, our history like our science is better, our history is better. We have made moral progress is better. We have made moral progress is better. We have made moral progress from that time. Sounds like you from that time. Sounds like you from that time. Sounds like you disagree. disagree. disagree. >> Well, I don't >> Well, I don't >> Well, I don't Well, Well, Well, if you're talking about people who are if you're talking about people who are if you're talking about people who are listening to podcast, yeah, probably so. listening to podcast, yeah, probably so. listening to podcast, yeah, probably so. If you talk to moral philosophers, If you talk to moral philosophers, If you talk to moral philosophers, probably not. So, um, probably not. So, um, probably not. So, um, I I agree that humans have certain I agree that humans have certain inclinations that that absolutely tell inclinations that that absolutely tell inclinations that that absolutely tell us that something is right and wrong. us that something is right and wrong. us that something is right and wrong. That doesn't mean that there's some kind That doesn't mean that there's some kind That doesn't mean that there's some kind of objective standard there. of objective standard there. of objective standard there. It means that this is our inclination as It means that this is our inclination as It means that this is our inclination as human beings. Okay. Uh, so, let me ask this. This is Okay. Uh, so, let me ask this. This is helpful, by the way. helpful, by the way. helpful, by the way. I'm I'm to come back to this point about I'm I'm to come back to this point about I'm I'm to come back to this point about incline incline incline >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> I got to say, my hat's off to Shawn. Oh >> I got to say, my hat's off to Shawn. Oh >> I got to say, my hat's off to Shawn. Oh my goodness, what I my goodness, what I my goodness, what I He really just shows Christianity such a He really just shows Christianity such a He really just shows Christianity such a good light and my absolute hat's off to good light and my absolute hat's off to good light and my absolute hat's off to him. nation, but in your in your book, him. nation, but in your in your book, him. nation, but in your in your book, you make two claims. you make two claims. you make two claims. One, you talk about you embrace your One, you talk about you embrace your One, you talk about you embrace your beliefs cuz you think they're superior, beliefs cuz you think they're superior, beliefs cuz you think they're superior, otherwise you wouldn't embrace them. And otherwise you wouldn't embrace them. And otherwise you wouldn't embrace them. And by the way, I'm with you. That's what it by the way, I'm with you. That's what it by the way, I'm with you. That's what it means to hold a belief. There's nothing means to hold a belief. There's nothing means to hold a belief. There's nothing elitist about that. I don't fault you elitist about that. I don't fault you elitist about that. I don't fault you for that. But then in page 76, you talk for that. But then in page 76, you talk for that. But then in page 76, you talk about progress we have made since our about progress we have made since our about progress we have made since our ancient forebears.

ancient forebears. ancient forebears. So, if it's all opinion and there's no So, if it's all opinion and there's no So, if it's all opinion and there's no standard by which we judge, I don't know standard by which we judge, I don't know standard by which we judge, I don't know what superior and progress even means. what superior and progress even means. what superior and progress even means. Oh, you don't? Oh, you don't? Oh, you don't? You don't believe in uh progress? Cuz You don't believe in uh progress? Cuz You don't believe in uh progress? Cuz earlier you said we've progressed in earlier you said we've progressed in earlier you said we've progressed in terms of history and science. terms of history and science. terms of history and science. Okay, so that's not my point. I said I Okay, so that's not my point. I said I Okay, so that's not my point. I said I don't believe in it. Let me Let me don't believe in it. Let me Let me don't believe in it. Let me Let me clarify again. I'm saying from your clarify again. I'm saying from your clarify again. I'm saying from your perspective, perspective, perspective, and correct me if I don't uh explain and correct me if I don't uh explain and correct me if I don't uh explain this right, there's not an objective this right, there's not an objective this right, there's not an objective moral standard outside of us. moral standard outside of us. moral standard outside of us. We've been wired by evolution to have We've been wired by evolution to have We've been wired by evolution to have certain inclinations that feel absolute certain inclinations that feel absolute certain inclinations that feel absolute to us, to us, to us, but they're not actually absolute. but they're not actually absolute. but they're not actually absolute. That's the explanation of morality I see That's the explanation of morality I see That's the explanation of morality I see in your book. And yet twice in the book, in your book. And yet twice in the book, in your book. And yet twice in the book, you talk about you embrace your beliefs you talk about you embrace your beliefs you talk about you embrace your beliefs cuz you think they are superior. cuz you think they are superior. cuz you think they are superior. And then on page 76, you talk about And then on page 76, you talk about And then on page 76, you talk about moral progress we've made since our moral progress we've made since our moral progress we've made since our ancient forebears.

ancient forebears. ancient forebears. I believe that certain morality is I believe that certain morality is I believe that certain morality is superior. I think the morality of Jesus superior. I think the morality of Jesus superior. I think the morality of Jesus is superior cuz I think we do have an is superior cuz I think we do have an is superior cuz I think we do have an obligation to care for the poor. I think obligation to care for the poor. I think obligation to care for the poor. I think people are made in God's image. And I people are made in God's image. And I people are made in God's image. And I think we've made progress. So, moving think we've made progress. So, moving think we've made progress. So, moving beyond slavery, moving beyond beyond slavery, moving beyond beyond slavery, moving beyond cannibalism, moving beyond these kinds cannibalism, moving beyond these kinds cannibalism, moving beyond these kinds of things is progress, but from the of things is progress, but from the of things is progress, but from the ethic you've laid out in so far as I ethic you've laid out in so far as I ethic you've laid out in so far as I understand it, I don't understand what understand it, I don't understand what understand it, I don't understand what superior or progress means any more than superior or progress means any more than superior or progress means any more than I made progress in the kind of ice cream I made progress in the kind of ice cream I made progress in the kind of ice cream flavor that I like. If it's all flavor that I like. If it's all flavor that I like. If it's all subjective, what is superior progress subjective, what is superior progress subjective, what is superior progress even mean? So, um So, um this seems to be an issue that you're this seems to be an issue that you're this seems to be an issue that you're very intent upon. very intent upon. very intent upon. Um Um Um you and I share a human DNA that has you and I share a human DNA that has you and I share a human DNA that has been transformed over the centuries been transformed over the centuries been transformed over the centuries because of the way culture developed. because of the way culture developed. because of the way culture developed. Um Um Um if you yourself think you have access if you yourself think you have access if you yourself think you have access to moral absolutes, to moral absolutes, to moral absolutes, which I think you you you believe you do which I think you you you believe you do which I think you you you believe you do have access to them.

have access to them. have access to them. Is that correct? Uh I would say Is that correct? Uh I would say Is that correct? Uh I would say >> have access to them. Yeah, I would use >> have access to them. Yeah, I would use >> have access to them. Yeah, I would use the term objective moral truth, but I'm the term objective moral truth, but I'm the term objective moral truth, but I'm with you in general. Go. As opposed to with you in general. Go. As opposed to with you in general. Go. As opposed to what did I say? I thought I thought I what did I say? I thought I thought I what did I say? I thought I thought I said objective. I I'm quibbling. Sorry. said objective. I I'm quibbling. Sorry. said objective. I I'm quibbling. Sorry. I tend to not use the term absolute for I tend to not use the term absolute for I tend to not use the term absolute for an issue you raised earlier that I think an issue you raised earlier that I think an issue you raised earlier that I think murder is wrong, but murder is wrong, but murder is wrong, but >> moral truths, right. >> moral truths, right. >> moral truths, right. >> Yes. And and you admit that in different >> Yes. And and you admit that in different >> Yes. And and you admit that in different cultures they have different views of cultures they have different views of cultures they have different views of what those absolute what those uh moral what those absolute what those uh moral what those absolute what those uh moral truths objective moral truths are. truths objective moral truths are. truths objective moral truths are. Different cultures have different views Different cultures have different views Different cultures have different views of moral objective truths. of moral objective truths. of moral objective truths. I think different cultures have common I think different cultures have common I think different cultures have common moral principles that transcend culture. moral principles that transcend culture. moral principles that transcend culture. These are principles that are universal These are principles that are universal These are principles that are universal or near universal, even though the or near universal, even though the or near universal, even though the practices may vary, which is what we practices may vary, which is what we practices may vary, which is what we would expect. would expect. would expect. >> Okay. And so, all I'm asking >> Okay. And so, all I'm asking >> Okay. And so, all I'm asking >> Go ahead. One of my more one of my top >> Go ahead. One of my more one of my top >> Go ahead. One of my more one of my top moral priorities is to help people who moral priorities is to help people who moral priorities is to help people who are hungry and homeless. Okay. are hungry and homeless. Okay. are hungry and homeless. Okay. And I think that that for me that is a And I think that that for me that is a And I think that that for me that is a very kind of core moral value.

very kind of core moral value. very kind of core moral value. Um Um Um and I try to act on it. and I try to act on it. and I try to act on it. That moral value That moral value That moral value was not in evidence for was not in evidence for was not in evidence for the vast majority of the 300,000 years the vast majority of the 300,000 years the vast majority of the 300,000 years that Homo sapiens have been in that Homo sapiens have been in that Homo sapiens have been in existence. Mhm. existence. Mhm. existence. Mhm. And so, if you want to say that we all And so, if you want to say that we all And so, if you want to say that we all have those moral values, I think history have those moral values, I think history have those moral values, I think history would show you that you're wrong. would show you that you're wrong. would show you that you're wrong. That in fact those moral values have That in fact those moral values have That in fact those moral values have been around that particular moral value been around that particular moral value been around that particular moral value is being like a high importance to help is being like a high importance to help is being like a high importance to help those in need has been around for about those in need has been around for about those in need has been around for about 1,800 years. 1,800 years. 1,800 years. Out 300,000 years that humans have Out 300,000 years that humans have Out 300,000 years that humans have existed. So, I don't think we all have existed. So, I don't think we all have existed. So, I don't think we all have the same moral code. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Okay, so a couple things. You said your >> Okay, so a couple things. You said your >> Okay, so a couple things. You said your moral value is to help the hungry and moral value is to help the hungry and moral value is to help the hungry and the homeless and that's when you deeply the homeless and that's when you deeply the homeless and that's when you deeply hold. hold. hold. By the way, I applaud you for that. I By the way, I applaud you for that. I By the way, I applaud you for that. I think that is an objectively good moral think that is an objectively good moral think that is an objectively good moral thing to do. And if I understand thing to do. And if I understand thing to do. And if I understand correctly on your own blog, you give correctly on your own blog, you give correctly on your own blog, you give away the proceeds of people who Am I away the proceeds of people who Am I away the proceeds of people who Am I correct on that? You give away the correct on that? You give away the correct on that? You give away the proceeds of people who subscribe to your proceeds of people who subscribe to your proceeds of people who subscribe to your blog, you give away to the poor, to the blog, you give away to the poor, to the blog, you give away to the poor, to the needy, etc. Am I right on that?

needy, etc. Am I right on that? needy, etc. Am I right on that? Yeah, the last 3 years we've given a Yeah, the last 3 years we've given a Yeah, the last 3 years we've given a million and a half dollars to charities million and a half dollars to charities million and a half dollars to charities dealing with hunger, homelessness, and dealing with hunger, homelessness, and dealing with hunger, homelessness, and disaster relief. disaster relief. disaster relief. Yeah, this is quite beautiful and I I Yeah, this is quite beautiful and I I Yeah, this is quite beautiful and I I love that about Bart, you know, giving love that about Bart, you know, giving love that about Bart, you know, giving all of that money away. Absolute hats all of that money away. Absolute hats all of that money away. Absolute hats off to him. Clearly a good good man who off to him. Clearly a good good man who off to him. Clearly a good good man who is in a good place with his heart and is in a good place with his heart and is in a good place with his heart and he's searching for the truth and is also he's searching for the truth and is also he's searching for the truth and is also doing incredible works like that. So, my doing incredible works like that. So, my doing incredible works like that. So, my hats off to him. hats off to him. hats off to him. Amazing. I love that. And I would say Amazing. I love that. And I would say Amazing. I love that. And I would say good for you because you're helping good for you because you're helping good for you because you're helping people who can't help themselves. I love people who can't help themselves. I love people who can't help themselves. I love that. that. that. It is where you and I can have common It is where you and I can have common It is where you and I can have common cause. I mean, it's absolutely. I mean, cause. I mean, it's absolutely. I mean, cause. I mean, it's absolutely. I mean, and with just anybody who has that kind and with just anybody who has that kind and with just anybody who has that kind of moral sense. My point of my book is of moral sense. My point of my book is of moral sense. My point of my book is that moral sense was a sense that almost that moral sense was a sense that almost that moral sense was a sense that almost that that nobody had that that nobody had that that nobody had in the ancient world. And to claim it as in the ancient world. And to claim it as in the ancient world. And to claim it as some kind of objective moral value is I some kind of objective moral value is I some kind of objective moral value is I think a historical. It's not recognizing think a historical. It's not recognizing think a historical. It's not recognizing the realities of the human race. the realities of the human race. the realities of the human race. Okay, so I do agree with you that things Okay, so I do agree with you that things Okay, so I do agree with you that things like hospitals and orphanages and like hospitals and orphanages and like hospitals and orphanages and nursing homes and charity and nursing homes and charity and nursing homes and charity and forgiveness, caring for the poor and the forgiveness, caring for the poor and the forgiveness, caring for the poor and the weak weak weak came in terms of a universal ethic, it came in terms of a universal ethic, it came in terms of a universal ethic, it came through Jesus.

came through Jesus. came through Jesus. That doesn't mean that all morality is That doesn't mean that all morality is That doesn't mean that all morality is therefore subjective. therefore subjective. therefore subjective. And it doesn't mean that Jesus' teaching And it doesn't mean that Jesus' teaching And it doesn't mean that Jesus' teaching isn't more objectively right than isn't more objectively right than isn't more objectively right than previous teaching. previous teaching. previous teaching. I don't think that follows from it. So, I don't think that follows from it. So, I don't think that follows from it. So, part of my question for you would be is part of my question for you would be is part of my question for you would be is I I applaud you, we have common cause I I applaud you, we have common cause I I applaud you, we have common cause cuz I say, "Hey, the poor that you're cuz I say, "Hey, the poor that you're cuz I say, "Hey, the poor that you're giving money to are made in the image of giving money to are made in the image of giving money to are made in the image of God. They have value and they have God. They have value and they have God. They have value and they have dignity. dignity. dignity. And so we ought to those of us who have And so we ought to those of us who have And so we ought to those of us who have power and privilege, etc. ought to care power and privilege, etc. ought to care power and privilege, etc. ought to care for those who don't. for those who don't. for those who don't. But it seems to me if you're saying this But it seems to me if you're saying this But it seems to me if you're saying this is just your subjective value and you do is just your subjective value and you do is just your subjective value and you do it and it's not objectively true, it and it's not objectively true, it and it's not objectively true, you could have said, "I'm going to take you could have said, "I'm going to take you could have said, "I'm going to take the proceeds from my blog and I'm going the proceeds from my blog and I'm going the proceeds from my blog and I'm going to give it to advance racism or sexism." to give it to advance racism or sexism." to give it to advance racism or sexism." And that's just my personal private And that's just my personal private And that's just my personal private subjective feeling. subjective feeling. subjective feeling. Uh and by your standard, if I hear you Uh and by your standard, if I hear you Uh and by your standard, if I hear you correctly, that's not actually wrong. correctly, that's not actually wrong. correctly, that's not actually wrong. You don't prefer it, you don't like it, You don't prefer it, you don't like it, You don't prefer it, you don't like it, but that's not really wrong in itself.

but that's not really wrong in itself. but that's not really wrong in itself. And And one thing before you say this is And And one thing before you say this is And And one thing before you say this is you said I'm hung up on this at the root you said I'm hung up on this at the root you said I'm hung up on this at the root of your book is about the moral of your book is about the moral of your book is about the moral transformation of the West. transformation of the West. transformation of the West. And you dismiss the moral argument, And you dismiss the moral argument, And you dismiss the moral argument, which is fine. You're totally welcome to which is fine. You're totally welcome to which is fine. You're totally welcome to do so. I'm enjoying this give-and-take. do so. I'm enjoying this give-and-take. do so. I'm enjoying this give-and-take. But part of this question is But part of this question is But part of this question is what describes reality? what describes reality? what describes reality? Can evolution and natural selection in Can evolution and natural selection in Can evolution and natural selection in the way you take it, if I understand the way you take it, if I understand the way you take it, if I understand correctly, describe morality and the correctly, describe morality and the correctly, describe morality and the rest of our beliefs? Or is there rest of our beliefs? Or is there rest of our beliefs? Or is there something in the world that points something in the world that points something in the world that points beyond itself beyond itself beyond itself to a god, an objective moral code? to a god, an objective moral code? to a god, an objective moral code? That's the question. So, That's the question. So, That's the question. So, part of your blog, it seems to me you're part of your blog, it seems to me you're part of your blog, it seems to me you're saying, yes, it's your private saying, yes, it's your private saying, yes, it's your private inclinations, inclinations, inclinations, but it would follow that if you used it but it would follow that if you used it but it would follow that if you used it for anything else, there is no moral for anything else, there is no moral for anything else, there is no moral distinction, distinction, distinction, which makes me raise a question, why are which makes me raise a question, why are which makes me raise a question, why are you doing it then? If it's not you doing it then? If it's not you doing it then? If it's not objectively good, does it make you feel objectively good, does it make you feel objectively good, does it make you feel good? Is it virtue signaling? I'm not good? Is it virtue signaling? I'm not good? Is it virtue signaling? I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying it saying you are, I'm just saying it saying you are, I'm just saying it raises the question if this is not raises the question if this is not raises the question if this is not objectively good, why choose A over B?

objectively good, why choose A over B? objectively good, why choose A over B? Just cuz you like it? Brilliant point. Just cuz you like it? Brilliant point. Just cuz you like it? Brilliant point. So, so, so well put by Shawn that. I'll So, so, so well put by Shawn that. I'll So, so, so well put by Shawn that. I'll be fascinated to see Bart's response. be fascinated to see Bart's response. be fascinated to see Bart's response. I think part of the problem I'm having I think part of the problem I'm having I think part of the problem I'm having with this conversation is that you're with this conversation is that you're with this conversation is that you're raising so many points when you talk raising so many points when you talk raising so many points when you talk that that that each one needs to be dealt with each one needs to be dealt with each one needs to be dealt with separately. separately. separately. And so, it's very difficult to have a And so, it's very difficult to have a And so, it's very difficult to have a conversation about any of the single conversation about any of the single conversation about any of the single points. I mean, and to begin with, you points. I mean, and to begin with, you points. I mean, and to begin with, you agreed that throughout the vast majority agreed that throughout the vast majority agreed that throughout the vast majority of human history, people have not had of human history, people have not had of human history, people have not had felt this need to help those who were felt this need to help those who were felt this need to help those who were hungry and thirsty Agreed. if they hungry and thirsty Agreed. if they hungry and thirsty Agreed. if they weren't friends and families. That means weren't friends and families. That means weren't friends and families. That means that most people did not have the moral that most people did not have the moral that most people did not have the moral inclinations that you have. inclinations that you have. inclinations that you have. But then you claim that your moral But then you claim that your moral But then you claim that your moral inclinations are objective. inclinations are objective. inclinations are objective. And either that means that you have And either that means that you have And either that means that you have greater access to object objective truth greater access to object objective truth greater access to object objective truth than 99.99% than 99.99% than 99.99% of the human race since it's existed, of the human race since it's existed, of the human race since it's existed, or it means you're not or it means or it means you're not or it means or it means you're not or it means you're contradicting yourself.

you're contradicting yourself. you're contradicting yourself. And so, um And so, um And so, um you know, you're making a lot of other you know, you're making a lot of other you know, you're making a lot of other points about how you have to have points about how you have to have points about how you have to have objectivity and or because otherwise you objectivity and or because otherwise you objectivity and or because otherwise you could just it could be random, or that could just it could be random, or that could just it could be random, or that objectivity proves that there is a god, objectivity proves that there is a god, objectivity proves that there is a god, and uh you know, those are other points. and uh you know, those are other points. and uh you know, those are other points. My point here is that you've agreed My point here is that you've agreed My point here is that you've agreed that your inclination to help those in that your inclination to help those in that your inclination to help those in need is based on the development within need is based on the development within need is based on the development within the human psyche. You said that you the human psyche. You said that you the human psyche. You said that you agreed with my sense that Jesus agreed with my sense that Jesus agreed with my sense that Jesus transformed transformed transformed the moral conscience of the West. If he the moral conscience of the West. If he the moral conscience of the West. If he transformed it, that means the moral transformed it, that means the moral transformed it, that means the moral conscience now is different from what it conscience now is different from what it conscience now is different from what it was before, which means that people was before, which means that people was before, which means that people haven't always had access to this haven't always had access to this haven't always had access to this objectivity, which should raise objectivity, which should raise objectivity, which should raise questions for you about what you even questions for you about what you even questions for you about what you even mean by a few by anybody having access mean by a few by anybody having access mean by a few by anybody having access to it. to it. to it. Including your example about torturing a Including your example about torturing a Including your example about torturing a child, which of course I agree with. child, which of course I agree with. child, which of course I agree with. But if you can list that as an example But if you can list that as an example But if you can list that as an example of what's morally objective, why not of what's morally objective, why not of what's morally objective, why not list everything? So, I mean, we could go list everything? So, I mean, we could go list everything? So, I mean, we could go on there and do listen and watch the on there and do listen and watch the on there and do listen and watch the full thing link below. And God bless full thing link below. And God bless full thing link below. And God bless Shawn. God bless Bart here, two Shawn. God bless Bart here, two Shawn. God bless Bart here, two absolutely phenomenal minds going at it.

absolutely phenomenal minds going at it. absolutely phenomenal minds going at it. I absolutely love this. It makes me so I absolutely love this. It makes me so I absolutely love this. It makes me so excited. It makes me so pumped. And and excited. It makes me so pumped. And and excited. It makes me so pumped. And and also just also just also just blessed to be a Christian in a way, to blessed to be a Christian in a way, to blessed to be a Christian in a way, to be honest, because I I really do believe be honest, because I I really do believe be honest, because I I really do believe that Jesus was Lord. Jesus was Messiah. that Jesus was Lord. Jesus was Messiah. that Jesus was Lord. Jesus was Messiah. And I do believe believing in God is And I do believe believing in God is And I do believe believing in God is intellectually defensible. Like it's intellectually defensible. Like it's intellectually defensible. Like it's it's fair to say that. It really is. And it's fair to say that. It really is. And it's fair to say that. It really is. And but yeah, God bless. I hope you did but yeah, God bless. I hope you did but yeah, God bless. I hope you did enjoy this. Subscribe to my Substack. enjoy this. Subscribe to my Substack. enjoy this. Subscribe to my Substack. That would mean so so much. It's That would mean so so much. It's That would mean so so much. It's completely free. completely free. completely free. Uh just click the link below. And yeah, Uh just click the link below. And yeah, Uh just click the link below. And yeah, God bless all of you. Thank you for God bless all of you. Thank you for God bless all of you. Thank you for watching. And I'll see you on the next watching. And I'll see you on the next watching. And I'll see you on the next one tomorrow. Peace.