SaaS Growth, Content Marketing + Measuring Success with Lars Lofgren

We're live. Welcome to today's episode We're live. Welcome to today's episode of MicroCom on Air. As always, I am your of MicroCom on Air. As always, I am your of MicroCom on Air. As always, I am your host, Rob Walling. As you know, every host, Rob Walling. As you know, every host, Rob Walling. As you know, every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific. We live stream for about 30 Pacific. We live stream for about 30 Pacific. We live stream for about 30 minutes, and we cover topics related to minutes, and we cover topics related to minutes, and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and purpose and allow us to value and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships. We maintain healthy relationships. We maintain healthy relationships. We believe that showing up every day and believe that showing up every day and believe that showing up every day and shipping that next feature, next piece shipping that next feature, next piece shipping that next feature, next piece of marketing copy, or closing your next of marketing copy, or closing your next of marketing copy, or closing your next sale is a way to build a sustainable sale is a way to build a sustainable sale is a way to build a sustainable company. So, thanks again for joining me company. So, thanks again for joining me company. So, thanks again for joining me today. It's been a couple weeks. Last today. It's been a couple weeks. Last today. It's been a couple weeks. Last week was Thanksgiving in the US. And so week was Thanksgiving in the US. And so week was Thanksgiving in the US. And so we uh I gave producer Xander the the day we uh I gave producer Xander the the day we uh I gave producer Xander the the day off. And of course um you know it it off. And of course um you know it it off. And of course um you know it it doesn't make sense for me to get on here doesn't make sense for me to get on here doesn't make sense for me to get on here and and try to do it without the the and and try to do it without the the and and try to do it without the the expert toutelage of uh of producer expert toutelage of uh of producer expert toutelage of uh of producer Xander and his production. So Trypto Xander and his production. So Trypto Xander and his production. So Trypto fanatic, I think. Is that supposed to fanatic, I think. Is that supposed to fanatic, I think. Is that supposed to say crypto fanfanatic? Do we have a typo say crypto fanfanatic? Do we have a typo say crypto fanfanatic? Do we have a typo in in my lower third? For those in in my lower third? For those in in my lower third? For those listening on the podcast, welcome. Every listening on the podcast, welcome. Every listening on the podcast, welcome. Every Thursday morning we air these episodes Thursday morning we air these episodes Thursday morning we air these episodes on uh the Microcom podcast. You can head on uh the Microcom podcast. You can head on uh the Microcom podcast. You can head to to to microcompodcast.com or search for Micro microcompodcast.com or search for Micro microcompodcast.com or search for Micro in any podcaster and you can hear these in any podcaster and you can hear these in any podcaster and you can hear these hear these uh these episodes. Producer hear these uh these episodes. Producer hear these uh these episodes. Producer Xander says tryptophen is the chemical Xander says tryptophen is the chemical Xander says tryptophen is the chemical in Turkey makes you sleepy. That's in Turkey makes you sleepy. That's in Turkey makes you sleepy. That's right. So I'm a tryptophanatic because right. So I'm a tryptophanatic because right. So I'm a tryptophanatic because you know Thanksgiving and all that. So you know Thanksgiving and all that. So you know Thanksgiving and all that. So thanks thanks for that. Producer Xander thanks thanks for that. Producer Xander thanks thanks for that. Producer Xander got a great show today. I'm super got a great show today. I'm super got a great show today. I'm super excited to bring on a firsttime guest to excited to bring on a firsttime guest to excited to bring on a firsttime guest to micro comp on air, but not a firsttime micro comp on air, but not a firsttime micro comp on air, but not a firsttime guest to the microcom world. Mr. Lars

guest to the microcom world. Mr. Lars guest to the microcom world. Mr. Lars Lofgrren is a manytime micro speaker. Lofgrren is a manytime micro speaker. Lofgrren is a manytime micro speaker. He's also a tiny seed mentor and He's also a tiny seed mentor and He's also a tiny seed mentor and all-around good guy. He is the CEO of all-around good guy. He is the CEO of all-around good guy. He is the CEO of Quicksprout, which you can check out at Quicksprout, which you can check out at Quicksprout, which you can check out at quickprout.com. He's a former director quickprout.com. He's a former director quickprout.com. He's a former director of growth at I will teach you to be of growth at I will teach you to be of growth at I will teach you to be rich, where he worked with with Rammit rich, where he worked with with Rammit rich, where he worked with with Rammit Sethi, and he ran growth for Sethi, and he ran growth for Sethi, and he ran growth for Kissmetrics. And Lars's specialty is has Kissmetrics. And Lars's specialty is has Kissmetrics. And Lars's specialty is has been content marketing and SEO for years been content marketing and SEO for years been content marketing and SEO for years and years and years. And he's one of the and years and years. And he's one of the and years and years. And he's one of the OG content SEO people that I heard about OG content SEO people that I heard about OG content SEO people that I heard about back in the day. If you recall, back in the day. If you recall, back in the day. If you recall, Kissmetrics blog was the leading blog. Kissmetrics blog was the leading blog. Kissmetrics blog was the leading blog. It was the example everyone looked to in It was the example everyone looked to in It was the example everyone looked to in our space in terms of a blog that was our space in terms of a blog that was our space in terms of a blog that was driving a lot of traffic, a lot of driving a lot of traffic, a lot of driving a lot of traffic, a lot of engagement, and just something that we I engagement, and just something that we I engagement, and just something that we I think a lot of us tried to model our own think a lot of us tried to model our own think a lot of us tried to model our own content strategies at. and Lars was the content strategies at. and Lars was the content strategies at. and Lars was the essentially the man behind that um that essentially the man behind that um that essentially the man behind that um that effort. And so with that, I'm going to effort. And so with that, I'm going to effort. And so with that, I'm going to welcome Mr. Lars Lofrren to the show. welcome Mr. Lars Lofrren to the show. welcome Mr. Lars Lofrren to the show. How's it going, sir? Hey, Rob. It's How's it going, sir? Hey, Rob. It's How's it going, sir? Hey, Rob. It's great to be here. Yeah, thanks man. Good great to be here. Yeah, thanks man. Good great to be here. Yeah, thanks man. Good to chat with you again. Lars and I have to chat with you again. Lars and I have to chat with you again. Lars and I have known each other for years. I don't know known each other for years. I don't know known each other for years. I don't know what what do you think we met? 2012, what what do you think we met? 2012, what what do you think we met? 2012, 2013, something like that. Yeah, one of 2013, something like that. Yeah, one of 2013, something like that. Yeah, one of the earlier micro comps in Vegas when I the earlier micro comps in Vegas when I the earlier micro comps in Vegas when I was actually living in Vegas, which is a was actually living in Vegas, which is a was actually living in Vegas, which is a whole other story. Way way way back.

whole other story. Way way way back. whole other story. Way way way back. Yeah. didn't really every time and every Yeah. didn't really every time and every Yeah. didn't really every time and every time we came to Vegas, I'd see you and time we came to Vegas, I'd see you and time we came to Vegas, I'd see you and be like, "Hey, still liking Vegas?" Cuz be like, "Hey, still liking Vegas?" Cuz be like, "Hey, still liking Vegas?" Cuz you you did not like No, I can't stand you you did not like No, I can't stand you you did not like No, I can't stand it. Yeah. it. Yeah. it. Yeah. Northwest now. Yeah. Yes. It's a much Northwest now. Yeah. Yes. It's a much Northwest now. Yeah. Yes. It's a much better fit for my overall, you know, better fit for my overall, you know, better fit for my overall, you know, immensely sunny disposition. I like the immensely sunny disposition. I like the immensely sunny disposition. I like the rain. rain. rain. you know, when folks ask me about you you know, when folks ask me about you you know, when folks ask me about you because something a lot of people don't because something a lot of people don't because something a lot of people don't realize realize realize is we see some some kind of more I'll is we see some some kind of more I'll is we see some some kind of more I'll say celebrities but it's just people who say celebrities but it's just people who say celebrities but it's just people who are popular who either have their own are popular who either have their own are popular who either have their own podcast or their own personal brand or podcast or their own personal brand or podcast or their own personal brand or their blog where they do a lot of their blog where they do a lot of their blog where they do a lot of podcast interviews and we just kind of podcast interviews and we just kind of podcast interviews and we just kind of hear their names a lot folks you and I hear their names a lot folks you and I hear their names a lot folks you and I know and you know have spoken with at know and you know have spoken with at know and you know have spoken with at micro Jason Cohen a heat and Shaw Dan micro Jason Cohen a heat and Shaw Dan micro Jason Cohen a heat and Shaw Dan Martell you know they're they're big Martell you know they're they're big Martell you know they're they're big names in the space you have chosen not names in the space you have chosen not names in the space you have chosen not to do that I think intentionally you to do that I think intentionally you to do that I think intentionally you certainly have chop to do it and the certainly have chop to do it and the certainly have chop to do it and the success behind But you're kind of an success behind But you're kind of an success behind But you're kind of an understated like you're a tactician and understated like you're a tactician and understated like you're a tactician and you get in and you just wreck [ __ ] You you get in and you just wreck [ __ ] You you get in and you just wreck [ __ ] You get it done. You grow big things big get it done. You grow big things big get it done. You grow big things big really quickly, but you haven't been I really quickly, but you haven't been I really quickly, but you haven't been I think uh you think uh you think uh you know immensely self-promotional or or know immensely self-promotional or or know immensely self-promotional or or building like a a personal brand. Has building like a a personal brand. Has building like a a personal brand. Has that been a pretty deliberate choice on that been a pretty deliberate choice on that been a pretty deliberate choice on your on your part? Yeah, I think it's your on your part? Yeah, I think it's your on your part? Yeah, I think it's you know for a little while I sort of you know for a little while I sort of you know for a little while I sort of entertained it. um you know because you entertained it. um you know because you entertained it. um you know because you can obviously do a lot of things with can obviously do a lot of things with can obviously do a lot of things with your career and you can whatever you your career and you can whatever you your career and you can whatever you build just having that personal brand build just having that personal brand build just having that personal brand and audience like you can just get and audience like you can just get and audience like you can just get started so much faster right it's started so much faster right it's started so much faster right it's there's so many advantages to it and there's so many advantages to it and there's so many advantages to it and most of the companies that I was most of the companies that I was most of the companies that I was involved in and built marketing programs involved in and built marketing programs involved in and built marketing programs around like there were personal really around like there were personal really around like there were personal really heavy really intense personal brands heavy really intense personal brands heavy really intense personal brands that were kind of the foundation that we

that were kind of the foundation that we that were kind of the foundation that we ended up launching off of. So, I've seen ended up launching off of. So, I've seen ended up launching off of. So, I've seen that. I know exactly how that works, that. I know exactly how that works, that. I know exactly how that works, what it can do for a company or whatever what it can do for a company or whatever what it can do for a company or whatever someone's trying to accomplish. But at someone's trying to accomplish. But at someone's trying to accomplish. But at the end of the day, I I just it's not the end of the day, I I just it's not the end of the day, I I just it's not me, right? I like to I want to go work me, right? I like to I want to go work me, right? I like to I want to go work on the business. I want to drive on the business. I want to drive on the business. I want to drive revenue. I want to go build stuff. I revenue. I want to go build stuff. I revenue. I want to go build stuff. I don't want to like, you know, just run don't want to like, you know, just run don't want to like, you know, just run the speaking circuit, right? Like, I'm the speaking circuit, right? Like, I'm the speaking circuit, right? Like, I'm happy to do it if people find it helpful happy to do it if people find it helpful happy to do it if people find it helpful and I get an invite, but like grinding and I get an invite, but like grinding and I get an invite, but like grinding that out and playing that game, it's not that out and playing that game, it's not that out and playing that game, it's not not that it's a bad game, it's just a not that it's a bad game, it's just a not that it's a bad game, it's just a different game that is not as good. different game that is not as good. different game that is not as good. Totally. Yeah. It's just not It's just Totally. Yeah. It's just not It's just Totally. Yeah. It's just not It's just not your thing. And for you know folks not your thing. And for you know folks not your thing. And for you know folks at home listening um you know you you've at home listening um you know you you've at home listening um you know you you've worked with Neil Patel and Heaton Sha worked with Neil Patel and Heaton Sha worked with Neil Patel and Heaton Sha and Ramit Sethi and and others and so and Ramit Sethi and and others and so and Ramit Sethi and and others and so yeah you've seen it from the inside. yeah you've seen it from the inside. yeah you've seen it from the inside. That's the thing, man. I was on Twitter. That's the thing, man. I was on Twitter. That's the thing, man. I was on Twitter. It was probably about a month or two It was probably about a month or two It was probably about a month or two ago, and I, you know, I just keep seeing ago, and I, you know, I just keep seeing ago, and I, you know, I just keep seeing the, "Hey, build an audience before you the, "Hey, build an audience before you the, "Hey, build an audience before you build your product." And I I think build your product." And I I think build your product." And I I think that's an amazing advice for info that's an amazing advice for info that's an amazing advice for info products. Like, if I'm going to sell a products. Like, if I'm going to sell a products. Like, if I'm going to sell a course or a book or any of that stuff or course or a book or any of that stuff or course or a book or any of that stuff or a coaching, I'm going to I people got to a coaching, I'm going to I people got to a coaching, I'm going to I people got to know, like, and trust me, all that know, like, and trust me, all that know, like, and trust me, all that thing. If I'm gonna build a SAS from the thing. If I'm gonna build a SAS from the thing. If I'm gonna build a SAS from the ground up and I don't already have kind ground up and I don't already have kind ground up and I don't already have kind of a personal audience, I was I just of a personal audience, I was I just of a personal audience, I was I just don't think it's worth the time, you don't think it's worth the time, you don't think it's worth the time, you know, and and when I look at people like know, and and when I look at people like know, and and when I look at people like you and Ruben Gomez and frankly like 80 you and Ruben Gomez and frankly like 80 you and Ruben Gomez and frankly like 80 or 90% of the SAS apps that I see get or 90% of the SAS apps that I see get or 90% of the SAS apps that I see get into the seven or eight figures, they into the seven or eight figures, they into the seven or eight figures, they don't build an audience from the start.

don't build an audience from the start. don't build an audience from the start. They might build a launch list. You They might build a launch list. You They might build a launch list. You build an interest list in the app, but build an interest list in the app, but build an interest list in the app, but it's not about the person, you know? it's not about the person, you know? it's not about the person, you know? It's not about the story. It's about It's not about the story. It's about It's not about the story. It's about it's about blocking and tackling, right? it's about blocking and tackling, right? it's about blocking and tackling, right? It's it's paid ads, it's content, it's It's it's paid ads, it's content, it's It's it's paid ads, it's content, it's SEO, it's cold email, it's sales, it's, SEO, it's cold email, it's sales, it's, SEO, it's cold email, it's sales, it's, you know, all the stuff that you do to you know, all the stuff that you do to you know, all the stuff that you do to to to scale an app. Um, and I just don't to to scale an app. Um, and I just don't to to scale an app. Um, and I just don't I I I have have enjoyed watching you I I I have have enjoyed watching you I I I have have enjoyed watching you succeed without having to, you know, succeed without having to, you know, succeed without having to, you know, again, start a podcast or or be a big uh again, start a podcast or or be a big uh again, start a podcast or or be a big uh personality, you know. Yeah, I personality, you know. Yeah, I personality, you know. Yeah, I appreciate that and it's true. I agree appreciate that and it's true. I agree appreciate that and it's true. I agree with all that. Um in fact if you go the with all that. Um in fact if you go the with all that. Um in fact if you go the personal brand route some businesses you personal brand route some businesses you personal brand route some businesses you learn a lot of good lessons and it feeds learn a lot of good lessons and it feeds learn a lot of good lessons and it feeds into it really well. You know consulting into it really well. You know consulting into it really well. You know consulting if you want to write books info products if you want to write books info products if you want to write books info products certainly like they they tend to gel and certainly like they they tend to gel and certainly like they they tend to gel and actually are almost required. Um but for actually are almost required. Um but for actually are almost required. Um but for other businesses you learn a lot of bad other businesses you learn a lot of bad other businesses you learn a lot of bad habits and you end up it forces you to habits and you end up it forces you to habits and you end up it forces you to go a route that's not congruent with go a route that's not congruent with go a route that's not congruent with what the business model really needs in what the business model really needs in what the business model really needs in the long term. Um and I I do see a lot the long term. Um and I I do see a lot the long term. Um and I I do see a lot of people kind of learn those bad habits of people kind of learn those bad habits of people kind of learn those bad habits and then the business suffers later for and then the business suffers later for and then the business suffers later for it. like SAS doesn't need any of the it. like SAS doesn't need any of the it. like SAS doesn't need any of the typical, you know, personal brand stuff.

typical, you know, personal brand stuff. typical, you know, personal brand stuff. It's nice like if you have it, great. It's nice like if you have it, great. It's nice like if you have it, great. The early days can be faster, but The early days can be faster, but The early days can be faster, but there's if you don't have it and you're there's if you don't have it and you're there's if you don't have it and you're considering building that stuff from considering building that stuff from considering building that stuff from scratch, honestly, there's way more scratch, honestly, there's way more scratch, honestly, there's way more effective ways to get your first five effective ways to get your first five effective ways to get your first five customers, your first 10 customers to customers, your first 10 customers to customers, your first 10 customers to get the ball rolling. And if you do that get the ball rolling. And if you do that get the ball rolling. And if you do that kind of the non-scalable direct route, kind of the non-scalable direct route, kind of the non-scalable direct route, you're actually going to learn way more you're actually going to learn way more you're actually going to learn way more about your mar market, what the business about your mar market, what the business about your mar market, what the business needs, and you're going to get a much needs, and you're going to get a much needs, and you're going to get a much healthier foundation. Um, because I I healthier foundation. Um, because I I healthier foundation. Um, because I I have seen businesses go sideways. Uh, have seen businesses go sideways. Uh, have seen businesses go sideways. Uh, because they leaned on the personal because they leaned on the personal because they leaned on the personal branding and the audience love too much branding and the audience love too much branding and the audience love too much and they ended up delaying some really and they ended up delaying some really and they ended up delaying some really core fundamental problems that kind of core fundamental problems that kind of core fundamental problems that kind of nipped them later. Yep. Very cool. Well, nipped them later. Yep. Very cool. Well, nipped them later. Yep. Very cool. Well, let's dig in. We got a couple. Well, let's dig in. We got a couple. Well, let's dig in. We got a couple. Well, first I got a comment from Mr. Justin first I got a comment from Mr. Justin first I got a comment from Mr. Justin Jackson. and he says, "Lars, miss Jackson. and he says, "Lars, miss Jackson. and he says, "Lars, miss arguing with you at the bar at micro." arguing with you at the bar at micro." arguing with you at the bar at micro." Yeah, smiley face. So, I'm sure you guys Yeah, smiley face. So, I'm sure you guys Yeah, smiley face. So, I'm sure you guys had a great conversation there. And had a great conversation there. And had a great conversation there. And then, and then we have a a question from then, and then we have a a question from then, and then we have a a question from Kasra from feedback Kasra from feedback Kasra from feedback onsite.co. And he says, it's a bit of a onsite.co. And he says, it's a bit of a onsite.co. And he says, it's a bit of a long question, so I'll read it. He says, long question, so I'll read it. He says, long question, so I'll read it. He says, "What is a good content marketing "What is a good content marketing "What is a good content marketing routine for a solo startup founder?" And routine for a solo startup founder?" And routine for a solo startup founder?" And then he adds some some uh additional then he adds some some uh additional then he adds some some uh additional information thinking like considering information thinking like considering information thinking like considering aspects like publishing on your own site aspects like publishing on your own site aspects like publishing on your own site versus guest posting for popular versus guest posting for popular versus guest posting for popular publications in the niche and I would publications in the niche and I would publications in the niche and I would even add versus posting on medium like a even add versus posting on medium like a even add versus posting on medium like a lot of people are doing these days. Uh lot of people are doing these days. Uh lot of people are doing these days. Uh the ratio of educational to promotional the ratio of educational to promotional the ratio of educational to promotional flavor or any other tips that come to flavor or any other tips that come to flavor or any other tips that come to mind. So let's start with that. You mind. So let's start with that. You mind. So let's start with that. You know, may maybe with the first general know, may maybe with the first general know, may maybe with the first general thoughts you have on as a solo founder,

thoughts you have on as a solo founder, thoughts you have on as a solo founder, which a lot of folks, you know, solo which a lot of folks, you know, solo which a lot of folks, you know, solo founder with maybe a contractor or two founder with maybe a contractor or two founder with maybe a contractor or two or a solo founder with noises. I mean, or a solo founder with noises. I mean, or a solo founder with noises. I mean, that's what a lot of folks watching this that's what a lot of folks watching this that's what a lot of folks watching this are thinking. What are your thoughts are thinking. What are your thoughts are thinking. What are your thoughts today on how to build that up? Yeah. So, today on how to build that up? Yeah. So, today on how to build that up? Yeah. So, obviously, I'm going to my opinions are obviously, I'm going to my opinions are obviously, I'm going to my opinions are my method. There's multiple ways to win my method. There's multiple ways to win my method. There's multiple ways to win in this game, but I'll give you a few in this game, but I'll give you a few in this game, but I'll give you a few quick quick tips that I would do quick quick tips that I would do quick quick tips that I would do personally. Uh, first is [ __ ] Medium. personally. Uh, first is [ __ ] Medium. personally. Uh, first is [ __ ] Medium. I'd never post anything on Medium. I I'd never post anything on Medium. I I'd never post anything on Medium. I never want to post anything on Medium. I never want to post anything on Medium. I never want to post anything on Medium. I want nothing to do with that entire want nothing to do with that entire want nothing to do with that entire site. In my opinion, it defeats the site. In my opinion, it defeats the site. In my opinion, it defeats the entire point of content marketing. You entire point of content marketing. You entire point of content marketing. You want to go play a social network viral want to go play a social network viral want to go play a social network viral game, like go go play on Facebook or game, like go go play on Facebook or game, like go go play on Facebook or Instagram or Tik Tok and or Twitter or Instagram or Tik Tok and or Twitter or Instagram or Tik Tok and or Twitter or whatever and go actually play that game. whatever and go actually play that game. whatever and go actually play that game. Medium is this like weird hybrid where Medium is this like weird hybrid where Medium is this like weird hybrid where you get all the work of content you get all the work of content you get all the work of content marketing, but like none of the marketing, but like none of the marketing, but like none of the long-term benefit and you get this long-term benefit and you get this long-term benefit and you get this ephemeral like social network type pops. ephemeral like social network type pops. ephemeral like social network type pops. So then the ROI and the content is just So then the ROI and the content is just So then the ROI and the content is just really wonky. But anyway, that's my really wonky. But anyway, that's my really wonky. But anyway, that's my opinion. [ __ ] Medium. I don't like it at opinion. [ __ ] Medium. I don't like it at opinion. [ __ ] Medium. I don't like it at all. Um, but if I was, let's say I had all. Um, but if I was, let's say I had all. Um, but if I was, let's say I had some SAS startup that I was just trying some SAS startup that I was just trying some SAS startup that I was just trying to get off the ground. We had some to get off the ground. We had some to get off the ground. We had some paying customers trying to and I was paying customers trying to and I was paying customers trying to and I was committed to content marketing. Um, committed to content marketing. Um, committed to content marketing. Um, well, the first thing I tell people is well, the first thing I tell people is well, the first thing I tell people is only do content marketing if you like only do content marketing if you like only do content marketing if you like really love it and you as a founder like really love it and you as a founder like really love it and you as a founder like have a deep passion for creating that have a deep passion for creating that have a deep passion for creating that type of content, right? Because content type of content, right? Because content type of content, right? Because content content marketing is a long-term game.

content marketing is a long-term game. content marketing is a long-term game. It takes years and years and years to It takes years and years and years to It takes years and years and years to pay off. you will never feel the payoff pay off. you will never feel the payoff pay off. you will never feel the payoff until you forget about it and then look until you forget about it and then look until you forget about it and then look back after a few years and you're like, back after a few years and you're like, back after a few years and you're like, "Wow, this really is helping the "Wow, this really is helping the "Wow, this really is helping the business." Um, so if you don't stick business." Um, so if you don't stick business." Um, so if you don't stick with it, you're never going to get with it, you're never going to get with it, you're never going to get there. So if you feel like you have to there. So if you feel like you have to there. So if you feel like you have to do content marketing and that's why do content marketing and that's why do content marketing and that's why you're getting into content marketing, you're getting into content marketing, you're getting into content marketing, then you should probably go do something then you should probably go do something then you should probably go do something else. This also applies to the type of else. This also applies to the type of else. This also applies to the type of content that you're considering, right? content that you're considering, right? content that you're considering, right? There's there's podcasts, there's con, There's there's podcasts, there's con, There's there's podcasts, there's con, there's actual blog posts, there's there's actual blog posts, there's there's actual blog posts, there's YouTube videos. All of these mediums are YouTube videos. All of these mediums are YouTube videos. All of these mediums are very valid and can work exceptionally very valid and can work exceptionally very valid and can work exceptionally well. The key whether or not it actually well. The key whether or not it actually well. The key whether or not it actually ends up helping the business, especially ends up helping the business, especially ends up helping the business, especially for like a solo or early stage like for like a solo or early stage like for like a solo or early stage like bootstraps startup of some kind, is if bootstraps startup of some kind, is if bootstraps startup of some kind, is if the founder is actually dedicated to the founder is actually dedicated to the founder is actually dedicated to that medium for the long term. So, if that medium for the long term. So, if that medium for the long term. So, if you are way more interested about you are way more interested about you are way more interested about videos, then go do YouTube. if you're videos, then go do YouTube. if you're videos, then go do YouTube. if you're way more interested about podcasts, go way more interested about podcasts, go way more interested about podcasts, go do that. Um, don't force yourself into do that. Um, don't force yourself into do that. Um, don't force yourself into writing blog posts when you really want writing blog posts when you really want writing blog posts when you really want to do something else or vice versa. And to do something else or vice versa. And to do something else or vice versa. And then, so let's say you've checked all then, so let's say you've checked all then, so let's say you've checked all those boxes, like you're committed to those boxes, like you're committed to those boxes, like you're committed to content, you don't care if you ever like content, you don't care if you ever like content, you don't care if you ever like see the results, you just feel like it's see the results, you just feel like it's see the results, you just feel like it's important and you enjoy doing it. And important and you enjoy doing it. And important and you enjoy doing it. And then you also enjoy the actual um, you then you also enjoy the actual um, you then you also enjoy the actual um, you know, whatever specific channel you're know, whatever specific channel you're know, whatever specific channel you're going into. A good starting cadence is going into. A good starting cadence is going into. A good starting cadence is publish something once a week. Make it publish something once a week. Make it publish something once a week. Make it high quality. Try to talk to your high quality. Try to talk to your high quality. Try to talk to your customers directly. Um, prospects, folks customers directly. Um, prospects, folks customers directly. Um, prospects, folks in your market. Answer the like the in your market. Answer the like the in your market. Answer the like the evergreen questions that you know

evergreen questions that you know evergreen questions that you know they're going to have this year and they're going to have this year and they're going to have this year and they're like they have this year, they're like they have this year, they're like they have this year, they're going to have next year. So, the they're going to have next year. So, the they're going to have next year. So, the content is not going to really decay content is not going to really decay content is not going to really decay really fast. Um, and then yeah, just really fast. Um, and then yeah, just really fast. Um, and then yeah, just keep doing it week after week and try to keep doing it week after week and try to keep doing it week after week and try to get better at it. Um there's obviously a get better at it. Um there's obviously a get better at it. Um there's obviously a ton of nuance and tactics and secret ton of nuance and tactics and secret ton of nuance and tactics and secret maybe not secrets but just like little maybe not secrets but just like little maybe not secrets but just like little tweaks and all that stuff but um the key tweaks and all that stuff but um the key tweaks and all that stuff but um the key is consistency and creating high value is consistency and creating high value is consistency and creating high value content over a long period of time not content over a long period of time not content over a long period of time not getting distracted right which a lot of getting distracted right which a lot of getting distracted right which a lot of folks do. They tend to quit six months folks do. They tend to quit six months folks do. They tend to quit six months in and that's that's not even enough to in and that's that's not even enough to in and that's that's not even enough to get get get started long game. Yeah. And in terms started long game. Yeah. And in terms started long game. Yeah. And in terms let's say someone did want to focus on let's say someone did want to focus on let's say someone did want to focus on kind of building a a blog or building a kind of building a a blog or building a kind of building a a blog or building a bunch of um Yeah. I'll just say with the bunch of um Yeah. I'll just say with the bunch of um Yeah. I'll just say with the blog, they want essays. Is is it true in blog, they want essays. Is is it true in blog, they want essays. Is is it true in your experience that today longer your experience that today longer your experience that today longer content, Google is valuing that more content, Google is valuing that more content, Google is valuing that more than it used to? than it used to? than it used to? Yeah. I mean, as a general rule, there Yeah. I mean, as a general rule, there Yeah. I mean, as a general rule, there are exceptions to this. The main thing I are exceptions to this. The main thing I are exceptions to this. The main thing I always go back to is search intent, always go back to is search intent, always go back to is search intent, right? So, every little keyword is kind right? So, every little keyword is kind right? So, every little keyword is kind of a very unique funnel where the people of a very unique funnel where the people of a very unique funnel where the people plugging in that keyword have a plugging in that keyword have a plugging in that keyword have a different set of expectations. Sometimes different set of expectations. Sometimes different set of expectations. Sometimes people really want the crazy in-depth people really want the crazy in-depth people really want the crazy in-depth just endless amounts of content on that just endless amounts of content on that just endless amounts of content on that subject. They want to go deep. Other subject. They want to go deep. Other subject. They want to go deep. Other times they just want the quick answer times they just want the quick answer times they just want the quick answer and then for you to get out of the way.

and then for you to get out of the way. and then for you to get out of the way. It's like everyone, you know, it's not a It's like everyone, you know, it's not a It's like everyone, you know, it's not a cliche to when you go to like a recipe cliche to when you go to like a recipe cliche to when you go to like a recipe site, you get this long story about site, you get this long story about site, you get this long story about their grandma and where the like the the their grandma and where the like the the their grandma and where the like the the recipe came from and no one really cares recipe came from and no one really cares recipe came from and no one really cares about that [ __ ] they just they just about that [ __ ] they just they just about that [ __ ] they just they just want the recipe and then to get get back want the recipe and then to get get back want the recipe and then to get get back to cooking and you you know there's to cooking and you you know there's to cooking and you you know there's there's places for that content and you there's places for that content and you there's places for that content and you do need some authority and you need to do need some authority and you need to do need some authority and you need to add value on the page but you can do add value on the page but you can do add value on the page but you can do that in a way that's not getting in the that in a way that's not getting in the that in a way that's not getting in the way of uh what people are actually way of uh what people are actually way of uh what people are actually looking for. So it's very keyword looking for. So it's very keyword looking for. So it's very keyword dependent and this I always go to the dependent and this I always go to the dependent and this I always go to the keyword itself see what people are keyword itself see what people are keyword itself see what people are looking for what other pages are ranking looking for what other pages are ranking looking for what other pages are ranking well and then I kind of back out from well and then I kind of back out from well and then I kind of back out from there. Sometimes it's nice and short. there. Sometimes it's nice and short. there. Sometimes it's nice and short. Sometimes you want to go really really Sometimes you want to go really really Sometimes you want to go really really long. Um, without additional information long. Um, without additional information long. Um, without additional information as a starting rule. I'm I always like to as a starting rule. I'm I always like to as a starting rule. I'm I always like to go in with roughly 2,000 words. Uh, you go in with roughly 2,000 words. Uh, you go in with roughly 2,000 words. Uh, you can always add more. You can always cut can always add more. You can always cut can always add more. You can always cut if you have a really good reason. But if if you have a really good reason. But if if you have a really good reason. But if you don't have a reason to do one or the you don't have a reason to do one or the you don't have a reason to do one or the other, then start at 2,000 and go from other, then start at 2,000 and go from other, then start at 2,000 and go from there. Got it. And I I want to call there. Got it. And I I want to call there. Got it. And I I want to call something out that you and I have talked something out that you and I have talked something out that you and I have talked about several times, but a listener may about several times, but a listener may about several times, but a listener may not have picked up on. In your mind, not have picked up on. In your mind, not have picked up on. In your mind, content marketing is all about SEO. It's content marketing is all about SEO. It's content marketing is all about SEO. It's much much less about the social and I'm much much less about the social and I'm much much less about the social and I'm going to put it on Twitter and it's going to put it on Twitter and it's going to put it on Twitter and it's content pop. You're right. I mean, content pop. You're right. I mean, content pop. You're right. I mean, that's what Kissmetrics the blog was that's what Kissmetrics the blog was that's what Kissmetrics the blog was about. That's what the Reit Seth stuff.

about. That's what the Reit Seth stuff. about. That's what the Reit Seth stuff. I mean, that's what you're doing today, I mean, that's what you're doing today, I mean, that's what you're doing today, right? Is this evergreen. I want a ton right? Is this evergreen. I want a ton right? Is this evergreen. I want a ton of organic search traffic on a monthly of organic search traffic on a monthly of organic search traffic on a monthly basis. Yeah, we uh we actively do not basis. Yeah, we uh we actively do not basis. Yeah, we uh we actively do not promote any of our blog posts like promote any of our blog posts like promote any of our blog posts like currently today. Um, we don't we don't currently today. Um, we don't we don't currently today. Um, we don't we don't even have Twitter accounts or Facebook even have Twitter accounts or Facebook even have Twitter accounts or Facebook accounts, right? We don't have any of accounts, right? We don't have any of accounts, right? We don't have any of this [ __ ] I don't even know if uh we we this [ __ ] I don't even know if uh we we this [ __ ] I don't even know if uh we we actually have like a course Twitter actually have like a course Twitter actually have like a course Twitter account or maybe some other user has it. account or maybe some other user has it. account or maybe some other user has it. I don't even know and I don't even care. I don't even know and I don't even care. I don't even know and I don't even care. Uh so, uh you know, and back in the day, Uh so, uh you know, and back in the day, Uh so, uh you know, and back in the day, I mean, you can do basic stuff like if I mean, you can do basic stuff like if I mean, you can do basic stuff like if you have a company and you know, you you have a company and you know, you you have a company and you know, you have a a pretty wellestablished SAS have a a pretty wellestablished SAS have a a pretty wellestablished SAS company, you have a whole marketing company, you have a whole marketing company, you have a whole marketing team, should they be emailing your users team, should they be emailing your users team, should they be emailing your users or their marketing list about a new blog or their marketing list about a new blog or their marketing list about a new blog post? Yeah, probably. But in the early post? Yeah, probably. But in the early post? Yeah, probably. But in the early days when you just got to be like days when you just got to be like days when you just got to be like scrappy and super lean, like I don't scrappy and super lean, like I don't scrappy and super lean, like I don't worry about that stuff at all. Like it's worry about that stuff at all. Like it's worry about that stuff at all. Like it's all um it is it's it's all SEO all um it is it's it's all SEO all um it is it's it's all SEO backwards. So I'm not thinking about backwards. So I'm not thinking about backwards. So I'm not thinking about trying to like create some like a bunch trying to like create some like a bunch trying to like create some like a bunch of noise in the space and it's not it's of noise in the space and it's not it's of noise in the space and it's not it's not really like thought leadership. It's not really like thought leadership. It's not really like thought leadership. It's you know what are the keywords? What you know what are the keywords? What you know what are the keywords? What keywords can I rank for? And um how do I keywords can I rank for? And um how do I keywords can I rank for? And um how do I build a site that's powerful enough in build a site that's powerful enough in build a site that's powerful enough in order to rank for those keywords? And so order to rank for those keywords? And so order to rank for those keywords? And so it's always keyword backwards.

it's always keyword backwards. it's always keyword backwards. And so if you were to take a keyword and And so if you were to take a keyword and And so if you were to take a keyword and search for it in Google, a key phrase, search for it in Google, a key phrase, search for it in Google, a key phrase, right, that you want to rank for, search right, that you want to rank for, search right, that you want to rank for, search for it in Google, and a bunch of the top for it in Google, and a bunch of the top for it in Google, and a bunch of the top ranking posts are really, really long, ranking posts are really, really long, ranking posts are really, really long, would that influence your decision to go would that influence your decision to go would that influence your decision to go really long because Google is is in really long because Google is is in really long because Google is is in essence choosing those over short form? essence choosing those over short form? essence choosing those over short form? As a general rule, yes. There's always As a general rule, yes. There's always As a general rule, yes. There's always this balance between, you know, you want this balance between, you know, you want this balance between, you know, you want to you want to give that individual like to you want to give that individual like to you want to give that individual like keyword market exactly what it wants, keyword market exactly what it wants, keyword market exactly what it wants, right? like you don't want to go left right? like you don't want to go left right? like you don't want to go left when they want to go right, but you also when they want to go right, but you also when they want to go right, but you also have to differentiate yourself with have to differentiate yourself with have to differentiate yourself with what's already been done just enough, what's already been done just enough, what's already been done just enough, right? So, there's that there's that right? So, there's that there's that right? So, there's that there's that balance. Um, and and how far to like balance. Um, and and how far to like balance. Um, and and how far to like differentiate, you know, comes down it's differentiate, you know, comes down it's differentiate, you know, comes down it's ve it's very nuanced based on the actual ve it's very nuanced based on the actual ve it's very nuanced based on the actual keyword. And honestly, it's a lot of keyword. And honestly, it's a lot of keyword. And honestly, it's a lot of judgment calls. You're like, well, you judgment calls. You're like, well, you judgment calls. You're like, well, you know, we know this about this topic. We know, we know this about this topic. We know, we know this about this topic. We know we have all this other research and know we have all this other research and know we have all this other research and we we compete with all these other we we compete with all these other we we compete with all these other keywords in the same general category. keywords in the same general category. keywords in the same general category. We know people generally want to go this We know people generally want to go this We know people generally want to go this direction and maybe because we have all direction and maybe because we have all direction and maybe because we have all that extra information, maybe we do do a that extra information, maybe we do do a that extra information, maybe we do do a hard left, right? And we totally break hard left, right? And we totally break hard left, right? And we totally break the norm and go super short when the norm and go super short when the norm and go super short when everybody else is going long. Other everybody else is going long. Other everybody else is going long. Other cases like, well, we don't really know cases like, well, we don't really know cases like, well, we don't really know about this market at all. It seems like about this market at all. It seems like about this market at all. It seems like people are, you know, want the longer people are, you know, want the longer people are, you know, want the longer content. That makes sense. Maybe we content. That makes sense. Maybe we content. That makes sense. Maybe we start there and try to differentiate start there and try to differentiate start there and try to differentiate ourselves in a smaller way. So it's um ourselves in a smaller way. So it's um ourselves in a smaller way. So it's um again it is very topic and keyword based again it is very topic and keyword based again it is very topic and keyword based um and there's a lot of nuance keyword um and there's a lot of nuance keyword um and there's a lot of nuance keyword to keyword.

to keyword. to keyword. Yeah. And I think you know Kazar to kind Yeah. And I think you know Kazar to kind Yeah. And I think you know Kazar to kind of wrap up his question part of it he of wrap up his question part of it he of wrap up his question part of it he said what is the ratio of educational said what is the ratio of educational said what is the ratio of educational versus promotional or or salesy content versus promotional or or salesy content versus promotional or or salesy content that you would put out if you were doing that you would put out if you were doing that you would put out if you were doing a blog. And I was going to phrase it as a blog. And I was going to phrase it as a blog. And I was going to phrase it as like how do you think about it Lars in like how do you think about it Lars in like how do you think about it Lars in terms of top offunnel, you know, middle terms of top offunnel, you know, middle terms of top offunnel, you know, middle of the funnel and bottom of the funnel of the funnel and bottom of the funnel of the funnel and bottom of the funnel content. Uh if you're whether on content. Uh if you're whether on content. Uh if you're whether on Quicksprout or maybe on a on a SAS blog. Quicksprout or maybe on a on a SAS blog. Quicksprout or maybe on a on a SAS blog. Yeah. So as a general rule, start at the Yeah. So as a general rule, start at the Yeah. So as a general rule, start at the bottom of the funnel and work up because bottom of the funnel and work up because bottom of the funnel and work up because the bottom of the funnel, that's where the bottom of the funnel, that's where the bottom of the funnel, that's where all the revenue is. Like I mean, if you all the revenue is. Like I mean, if you all the revenue is. Like I mean, if you had um I'm sure if you spent like any had um I'm sure if you spent like any had um I'm sure if you spent like any time in the space, you've heard that time in the space, you've heard that time in the space, you've heard that like stupid ROI stat around email. It's like stupid ROI stat around email. It's like stupid ROI stat around email. It's like email produces like email produces like email produces 42x ROI or whatever ridiculous 42x ROI or whatever ridiculous 42x ROI or whatever ridiculous percentage it is. And the only reason percentage it is. And the only reason percentage it is. And the only reason that's the case is because email's at that's the case is because email's at that's the case is because email's at the bottom of the [ __ ] funnel, right? the bottom of the [ __ ] funnel, right? the bottom of the [ __ ] funnel, right? People are already on your list. They're People are already on your list. They're People are already on your list. They're already in your orbit. They're already already in your orbit. They're already already in your orbit. They're already aware of the problem. They're already uh aware of the problem. They're already uh aware of the problem. They're already uh have some trust in you and they're on have some trust in you and they're on have some trust in you and they're on your email list. So yeah, when you send your email list. So yeah, when you send your email list. So yeah, when you send an email, do they respond and click an email, do they respond and click an email, do they respond and click through and buy? Like yes, because through and buy? Like yes, because through and buy? Like yes, because they're all the way down. Um, you can't they're all the way down. Um, you can't they're all the way down. Um, you can't compare the ROI to like Twitter or compare the ROI to like Twitter or compare the ROI to like Twitter or Facebook or something at the very very Facebook or something at the very very Facebook or something at the very very top. It's just different stages of the top. It's just different stages of the top. It's just different stages of the funnel. SEO is generally further down funnel. SEO is generally further down funnel. SEO is generally further down the funnel compared to other channels.

the funnel compared to other channels. the funnel compared to other channels. But there is also a range keyword to But there is also a range keyword to But there is also a range keyword to keyword. Some stuff is very direct. Um, keyword. Some stuff is very direct. Um, keyword. Some stuff is very direct. Um, you know, it's like product categories. you know, it's like product categories. you know, it's like product categories. When people are searching for actual When people are searching for actual When people are searching for actual product categories like dog food, then product categories like dog food, then product categories like dog food, then yeah, they are interested in purchasing yeah, they are interested in purchasing yeah, they are interested in purchasing dog food. They're aware of the need. dog food. They're aware of the need. dog food. They're aware of the need. They're aware of the solution and they They're aware of the solution and they They're aware of the solution and they are looking for advice on how to make a are looking for advice on how to make a are looking for advice on how to make a purchase. Every business has some of purchase. Every business has some of purchase. Every business has some of those categories within Google. Now, those categories within Google. Now, those categories within Google. Now, depending on the size of the market in depending on the size of the market in depending on the size of the market in the category, sometimes it's super niche the category, sometimes it's super niche the category, sometimes it's super niche and sometimes it's, you know, massive. and sometimes it's, you know, massive. and sometimes it's, you know, massive. Um, but you always want to start with Um, but you always want to start with Um, but you always want to start with those really direct keywords. And then those really direct keywords. And then those really direct keywords. And then you're always making these trade-off you're always making these trade-off you're always making these trade-off considerations of how competitive is it? considerations of how competitive is it? considerations of how competitive is it? Like you're building a new CRM and Like you're building a new CRM and Like you're building a new CRM and you're going up against Salesforce you're going up against Salesforce you're going up against Salesforce head-to-head. Are you going to get on head-to-head. Are you going to get on head-to-head. Are you going to get on the first page? Probably not. Um, but the first page? Probably not. Um, but the first page? Probably not. Um, but hopefully you're in a niche or you have hopefully you're in a niche or you have hopefully you're in a niche or you have a way to segment down your industry a way to segment down your industry a way to segment down your industry somewhat so you can get to some areas somewhat so you can get to some areas somewhat so you can get to some areas that are not as competitive and you can that are not as competitive and you can that are not as competitive and you can at least get in the running. Uh, which at least get in the running. Uh, which at least get in the running. Uh, which is generally on page one. And then from is generally on page one. And then from is generally on page one. And then from there, you can build up your authority there, you can build up your authority there, you can build up your authority and expand and, you know, get more and expand and, you know, get more and expand and, you know, get more coverage over time. But, um, and also go coverage over time. But, um, and also go coverage over time. But, um, and also go up the funnel. Uh, every if you get big up the funnel. Uh, every if you get big up the funnel. Uh, every if you get big enough, then yeah, you're going for enough, then yeah, you're going for enough, then yeah, you're going for super broad terms, you know, stuff super broad terms, you know, stuff super broad terms, you know, stuff that's not even like directly related to that's not even like directly related to that's not even like directly related to your product. like you might have a AB your product. like you might have a AB your product. like you might have a AB testing tool and that's your your your testing tool and that's your your your testing tool and that's your your your SAS product, but you might start SAS product, but you might start SAS product, but you might start releasing marketing content on funnels releasing marketing content on funnels releasing marketing content on funnels and copywriting and conversions and and copywriting and conversions and and copywriting and conversions and going after all those topics just going after all those topics just going after all those topics just because you need that broader awareness because you need that broader awareness because you need that broader awareness that's one step up from the purchase that's one step up from the purchase that's one step up from the purchase decision. That takes a lot of money, a

decision. That takes a lot of money, a decision. That takes a lot of money, a lot of time. It's generally pretty lot of time. It's generally pretty lot of time. It's generally pretty competitive because there's a lot more competitive because there's a lot more competitive because there's a lot more players in those categories. Um, but players in those categories. Um, but players in those categories. Um, but when your business is at that stage, when your business is at that stage, when your business is at that stage, then sure, yeah, go after it. But start then sure, yeah, go after it. But start then sure, yeah, go after it. But start at bottom and leave the top of funnel at bottom and leave the top of funnel at bottom and leave the top of funnel stuff for later. At least that's my stuff for later. At least that's my stuff for later. At least that's my preference. preference. preference. Cool. That's great advice. A couple Cool. That's great advice. A couple Cool. That's great advice. A couple things I want to add to that, too. You things I want to add to that, too. You things I want to add to that, too. You know, in talking to to Ruben Gomez, know, in talking to to Ruben Gomez, know, in talking to to Ruben Gomez, founder of Doc Sketch, whom you and I founder of Doc Sketch, whom you and I founder of Doc Sketch, whom you and I both know, um, he says that to find both know, um, he says that to find both know, um, he says that to find bottom of the funnel terms, uh, go to bottom of the funnel terms, uh, go to bottom of the funnel terms, uh, go to Google Adwords and look at the cost per Google Adwords and look at the cost per Google Adwords and look at the cost per click. And usually the higher clicks, click. And usually the higher clicks, click. And usually the higher clicks, the higher cost per click is more the higher cost per click is more the higher cost per click is more towards the bottom of the funnel because towards the bottom of the funnel because towards the bottom of the funnel because those are the ones that are actually those are the ones that are actually those are the ones that are actually converting to revenue. Um, the other converting to revenue. Um, the other converting to revenue. Um, the other thing is I wanted to give one example of thing is I wanted to give one example of thing is I wanted to give one example of if someone's never heard of this these if someone's never heard of this these if someone's never heard of this these terms top of funnel, middle of funnel, terms top of funnel, middle of funnel, terms top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of the funnel. Like imagine bottom of the funnel. Like imagine bottom of the funnel. Like imagine someone imagine you are podcast someone imagine you are podcast someone imagine you are podcast recording software like Squadcast, recording software like Squadcast, recording software like Squadcast, right? They're a tiny seed company. Uh, right? They're a tiny seed company. Uh, right? They're a tiny seed company. Uh, top of funnel might be how do I start a top of funnel might be how do I start a top of funnel might be how do I start a podcast? Middlefunnel might be um, how podcast? Middlefunnel might be um, how podcast? Middlefunnel might be um, how do I record my podcast or record how to do I record my podcast or record how to do I record my podcast or record how to record a podcast online? And then bottom record a podcast online? And then bottom record a podcast online? And then bottom of funnel might be squadcast versus of funnel might be squadcast versus of funnel might be squadcast versus competitor or best yeah podcast record.

competitor or best yeah podcast record. competitor or best yeah podcast record. You know what I mean? It's like you're You know what I mean? It's like you're You know what I mean? It's like you're kind of making their way down. Would you kind of making their way down. Would you kind of making their way down. Would you you agree that that assessment? you agree that that assessment? you agree that that assessment? Yeah, most uh most software categories Yeah, most uh most software categories Yeah, most uh most software categories especially they usually follow like a especially they usually follow like a especially they usually follow like a few like typical keyword like templates few like typical keyword like templates few like typical keyword like templates like it's the category alternatives, like it's the category alternatives, like it's the category alternatives, category services, category tools, category services, category tools, category services, category tools, category there's there's like five to 10 category there's there's like five to 10 category there's there's like five to 10 of these things that you see over and of these things that you see over and of these things that you see over and over and over again. Uh a little over and over again. Uh a little over and over again. Uh a little googling in any keyword tool, you'll googling in any keyword tool, you'll googling in any keyword tool, you'll figure out which ones are the most figure out which ones are the most figure out which ones are the most popular, the fastest, and then go focus popular, the fastest, and then go focus popular, the fastest, and then go focus on those. on those. on those. Very cool. All right, we have a question Very cool. All right, we have a question Very cool. All right, we have a question from Tony from Cloud Forecast. He says, from Tony from Cloud Forecast. He says, from Tony from Cloud Forecast. He says, "How much time does it usually take to "How much time does it usually take to "How much time does it usually take to start ranking for keywords you target? start ranking for keywords you target? start ranking for keywords you target? How do you ensure that eventually How do you ensure that eventually How do you ensure that eventually happens?" happens?" happens?" Yeah. So, okay, spend like days, weeks, Yeah. So, okay, spend like days, weeks, Yeah. So, okay, spend like days, weeks, months on just the how to ensure it months on just the how to ensure it months on just the how to ensure it happens. That's like my whole job right happens. That's like my whole job right happens. That's like my whole job right now. But um as far as the initial now. But um as far as the initial now. But um as far as the initial timeline um is let's say so you picked a timeline um is let's say so you picked a timeline um is let's say so you picked a keyword you you do a little you know keyword you you do a little you know keyword you you do a little you know googling around and you kind of figure googling around and you kind of figure googling around and you kind of figure out the search intent a little bit you out the search intent a little bit you out the search intent a little bit you write a blog post you think you have a write a blog post you think you have a write a blog post you think you have a good shot at ranking you publish how good shot at ranking you publish how good shot at ranking you publish how long does it take uh before you make any long does it take uh before you make any long does it take uh before you make any decisions? General rule of thumb 90 decisions? General rule of thumb 90 decisions? General rule of thumb 90 days. U so once you go live don't even days. U so once you go live don't even days. U so once you go live don't even make like you don't even really know make like you don't even really know make like you don't even really know where the post is going to land for 90 where the post is going to land for 90 where the post is going to land for 90 days. So, you got to wait. Then after 90 days. So, you got to wait. Then after 90 days. So, you got to wait. Then after 90 days, you can kind of see where it sits days, you can kind of see where it sits days, you can kind of see where it sits in the rankings. So, just keep googling in the rankings. So, just keep googling in the rankings. So, just keep googling that same keyword. Uh, usually just in

that same keyword. Uh, usually just in that same keyword. Uh, usually just in an incognito window and then just start an incognito window and then just start an incognito window and then just start going through the search results. I going through the search results. I going through the search results. I mean, there's ways to automate this mean, there's ways to automate this mean, there's ways to automate this stuff. Um, you know, there's a bunch of stuff. Um, you know, there's a bunch of stuff. Um, you know, there's a bunch of keyword trackers out there, but you keyword trackers out there, but you keyword trackers out there, but you don't have to get fancy. And you want to don't have to get fancy. And you want to don't have to get fancy. And you want to see where you land. If you are on page see where you land. If you are on page see where you land. If you are on page one, that is fantastic. You know, lucky one, that is fantastic. You know, lucky one, that is fantastic. You know, lucky you. you. you. like you're off to the races and you can like you're off to the races and you can like you're off to the races and you can work on climbing that first page, which work on climbing that first page, which work on climbing that first page, which is a whole other set of stuff you can is a whole other set of stuff you can is a whole other set of stuff you can do. But let's say you're like buried, do. But let's say you're like buried, do. But let's say you're like buried, then what do you do? Um, well, it's a then what do you do? Um, well, it's a then what do you do? Um, well, it's a probably a sign that you really don't probably a sign that you really don't probably a sign that you really don't have the authority you need in that have the authority you need in that have the authority you need in that general category within Google, right? general category within Google, right? general category within Google, right? So, it's Google really thinks in like So, it's Google really thinks in like So, it's Google really thinks in like category or topical areas. uh every site category or topical areas. uh every site category or topical areas. uh every site tends to have authority in one area but tends to have authority in one area but tends to have authority in one area but not as much authority in others. That's not as much authority in others. That's not as much authority in others. That's why like uh you know PC gamer can rank why like uh you know PC gamer can rank why like uh you know PC gamer can rank really well with a lot of terms but they really well with a lot of terms but they really well with a lot of terms but they get into other software terms and they get into other software terms and they get into other software terms and they struggle, right? Or you know Quick struggle, right? Or you know Quick struggle, right? Or you know Quick Sprout ranks really well in certain Sprout ranks really well in certain Sprout ranks really well in certain marketing topics but then we get into marketing topics but then we get into marketing topics but then we get into other business areas and we don't do as other business areas and we don't do as other business areas and we don't do as well even though the domain score is well even though the domain score is well even though the domain score is just off the charts, right? It's a just off the charts, right? It's a just off the charts, right? It's a fantastic domain. Um, it's really how fantastic domain. Um, it's really how fantastic domain. Um, it's really how much authority do you have in a specific much authority do you have in a specific much authority do you have in a specific area? And if you have a brand new area? And if you have a brand new area? And if you have a brand new domain, if you have a brand new company, domain, if you have a brand new company, domain, if you have a brand new company, and you you just most likely just don't and you you just most likely just don't and you you just most likely just don't have the authority, especially if have the authority, especially if have the authority, especially if there's any degree of competition, there's any degree of competition, there's any degree of competition, that's most likely the reason why you're that's most likely the reason why you're that's most likely the reason why you're getting buried, which case you are getting buried, which case you are getting buried, which case you are signing up for the long slog, which I signing up for the long slog, which I signing up for the long slog, which I still think is worth it. That's why I do still think is worth it. That's why I do still think is worth it. That's why I do this. But, uh, for a lot of, uh, you

this. But, uh, for a lot of, uh, you this. But, uh, for a lot of, uh, you know, scrappy small businesses that, you know, scrappy small businesses that, you know, scrappy small businesses that, you know, pretty lean on budget, then you're know, pretty lean on budget, then you're know, pretty lean on budget, then you're going to have to make some trade-offs. going to have to make some trade-offs. going to have to make some trade-offs. And, um, honestly, my my advice for most And, um, honestly, my my advice for most And, um, honestly, my my advice for most SAS businesses, um, if you're not SAS businesses, um, if you're not SAS businesses, um, if you're not getting the rankings that you want, just getting the rankings that you want, just getting the rankings that you want, just keep building the business. like as you keep building the business. like as you keep building the business. like as you get more customers, as you increase your get more customers, as you increase your get more customers, as you increase your MR, as you increase, you know, your your MR, as you increase, you know, your your MR, as you increase, you know, your your sales pipeline and your lead genen and sales pipeline and your lead genen and sales pipeline and your lead genen and you release new features and you do more you release new features and you do more you release new features and you do more promotional stuff and you write more promotional stuff and you write more promotional stuff and you write more content, you will end up building an content, you will end up building an content, you will end up building an immense amount of authority in that immense amount of authority in that immense amount of authority in that whatever category you happen to be in whatever category you happen to be in whatever category you happen to be in naturally, if you just keep going. So, a naturally, if you just keep going. So, a naturally, if you just keep going. So, a lot of times the answer is don't force lot of times the answer is don't force lot of times the answer is don't force it. This is for a SAS company it. This is for a SAS company it. This is for a SAS company specifically because you have so many specifically because you have so many specifically because you have so many other cars to play in order to grow the other cars to play in order to grow the other cars to play in order to grow the business. And then you can come back to business. And then you can come back to business. And then you can come back to content and you actually discover content and you actually discover content and you actually discover assuming that you know you have you're assuming that you know you have you're assuming that you know you have you're building a company in a very specific building a company in a very specific building a company in a very specific niche and your content is focused on niche and your content is focused on niche and your content is focused on that niche. Um it'll end up doing much that niche. Um it'll end up doing much that niche. Um it'll end up doing much better over time just naturally as you better over time just naturally as you better over time just naturally as you build a company. Yeah, there's all sorts build a company. Yeah, there's all sorts build a company. Yeah, there's all sorts of ways to accelerate it and double down of ways to accelerate it and double down of ways to accelerate it and double down and guarantee that you actually move and guarantee that you actually move and guarantee that you actually move that stuff forward. Um, but it's that stuff forward. Um, but it's that stuff forward. Um, but it's intense, it's expensive, requires an intense, it's expensive, requires an intense, it's expensive, requires an immense amount of focus. And I would immense amount of focus. And I would immense amount of focus. And I would actually make the case that most SAS actually make the case that most SAS actually make the case that most SAS businesses should not do that because businesses should not do that because businesses should not do that because they have other things to worry about they have other things to worry about they have other things to worry about like churn and product market fit. And like churn and product market fit. And like churn and product market fit. And like honestly, marketing and SAS like honestly, marketing and SAS like honestly, marketing and SAS business doesn't have to be that good.

business doesn't have to be that good. business doesn't have to be that good. It just needs to be good enough to not It just needs to be good enough to not It just needs to be good enough to not be the problem. Right. There's other be the problem. Right. There's other be the problem. Right. There's other things that I'm way more concerned about things that I'm way more concerned about things that I'm way more concerned about for SAS. But my business is 100% SEO, so for SAS. But my business is 100% SEO, so for SAS. But my business is 100% SEO, so that's why we go crazy with it. Right. that's why we go crazy with it. Right. that's why we go crazy with it. Right. Right. And something you mentioned while Right. And something you mentioned while Right. And something you mentioned while you were talking about that is, you you were talking about that is, you you were talking about that is, you know, if you rank on the first page, know, if you rank on the first page, know, if you rank on the first page, let's say you're number nine or number let's say you're number nine or number let's say you're number nine or number 10, that's great. Now you have to work 10, that's great. Now you have to work 10, that's great. Now you have to work on climbing that first page. Is that on climbing that first page. Is that on climbing that first page. Is that these days? Is that just links? Is it these days? Is that just links? Is it these days? Is that just links? Is it what it's always been or how do you what it's always been or how do you what it's always been or how do you think about that? Yeah, it's how you think about that? Yeah, it's how you think about that? Yeah, it's how you it's content and links. That's all it it's content and links. That's all it it's content and links. That's all it comes down to in my opinion. It's it's comes down to in my opinion. It's it's comes down to in my opinion. It's it's simple, but it's not easy. So, um, you simple, but it's not easy. So, um, you simple, but it's not easy. So, um, you know, people like to get it really know, people like to get it really know, people like to get it really complicated and, oh, we're going to complicated and, oh, we're going to complicated and, oh, we're going to redirect all these domains and do all redirect all these domains and do all redirect all these domains and do all this fancy stuff. And I'm just like, no, this fancy stuff. And I'm just like, no, this fancy stuff. And I'm just like, no, just don't. Like, yeah, we hate we don't just don't. Like, yeah, we hate we don't just don't. Like, yeah, we hate we don't do any of that [ __ ] So, um, first do any of that [ __ ] So, um, first do any of that [ __ ] So, um, first sides, the content one is, and this is sides, the content one is, and this is sides, the content one is, and this is something that we do that's very something that we do that's very something that we do that's very differently than most people and differently than most people and differently than most people and programs is, uh, we take the content programs is, uh, we take the content programs is, uh, we take the content really seriously uh, to in two ways. One really seriously uh, to in two ways. One really seriously uh, to in two ways. One is it needs to be super fresh because is it needs to be super fresh because is it needs to be super fresh because that's what Google prefers. In fact, I that's what Google prefers. In fact, I that's what Google prefers. In fact, I think their algorithm is overweight for think their algorithm is overweight for think their algorithm is overweight for us. It's like it's stupid how much it us. It's like it's stupid how much it us. It's like it's stupid how much it matters. Like you can see like you on a matters. Like you can see like you on a matters. Like you can see like you on a competitive term like if you if you competitive term like if you if you competitive term like if you if you spend any time uh paying really close spend any time uh paying really close spend any time uh paying really close attention to search results and you go attention to search results and you go attention to search results and you go look at the like the dates on when look at the like the dates on when look at the like the dates on when everything was published on competitive everything was published on competitive everything was published on competitive terms, everything's been published like terms, everything's been published like terms, everything's been published like within the last week. Well, that's not within the last week. Well, that's not within the last week. Well, that's not actually true, right? like everything actually true, right? like everything actually true, right? like everything like those those pages have been around like those those pages have been around like those those pages have been around for years and years and years and years, for years and years and years and years, for years and years and years and years, but everyone has realized how much

but everyone has realized how much but everyone has realized how much freshness matters. So they like they freshness matters. So they like they freshness matters. So they like they have to keep it updated. If you play in have to keep it updated. If you play in have to keep it updated. If you play in really competitive circles like it's it really competitive circles like it's it really competitive circles like it's it becomes a requirement and updating becomes a requirement and updating becomes a requirement and updating weekly is like I'm not that that's not weekly is like I'm not that that's not weekly is like I'm not that that's not exaggerational. You actually have to exaggerational. You actually have to exaggerational. You actually have to update these things every week if you're update these things every week if you're update these things every week if you're in really competitive circles and that's in really competitive circles and that's in really competitive circles and that's like adding adding a few paragraphs, like adding adding a few paragraphs, like adding adding a few paragraphs, adding a new section, rem just updating adding a new section, rem just updating adding a new section, rem just updating content changes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, content changes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, content changes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, you actually you do have to update the you actually you do have to update the you actually you do have to update the content. You can't just change the date. content. You can't just change the date. content. You can't just change the date. Google picks up on that pretty fast. But Google picks up on that pretty fast. But Google picks up on that pretty fast. But you go, you know, you go fix some typos, you go, you know, you go fix some typos, you go, you know, you go fix some typos, you add some extra sentences, you you you add some extra sentences, you you you add some extra sentences, you you condense things, you clean it up, you condense things, you clean it up, you condense things, you clean it up, you polish it, and then you, you know, you polish it, and then you, you know, you polish it, and then you, you know, you reship it. Um, so that's one side, you reship it. Um, so that's one side, you reship it. Um, so that's one side, you know, because the freshness does matter know, because the freshness does matter know, because the freshness does matter at Google. So, you always have to be at Google. So, you always have to be at Google. So, you always have to be pounding that kind of freshness pounding that kind of freshness pounding that kind of freshness treadmill. But the other side that that treadmill. But the other side that that treadmill. But the other side that that we take really seriously because we're we take really seriously because we're we take really seriously because we're all uh because we focus so heavily on all uh because we focus so heavily on all uh because we focus so heavily on keywords and none of the other keywords and none of the other keywords and none of the other promotional stuff, you know, whether promotional stuff, you know, whether promotional stuff, you know, whether it's email or social feeds that's very it's email or social feeds that's very it's email or social feeds that's very calendar driven. You get these pops that calendar driven. You get these pops that calendar driven. You get these pops that come and go. Like we don't have an come and go. Like we don't have an come and go. Like we don't have an editorial calendar, not a conventional editorial calendar, not a conventional editorial calendar, not a conventional sense. like we don't have dates, we sense. like we don't have dates, we sense. like we don't have dates, we don't have any of that nonsense, but we don't have any of that nonsense, but we don't have any of that nonsense, but we do have posts and we need to keep those do have posts and we need to keep those do have posts and we need to keep those things updated and improve it in quality things updated and improve it in quality things updated and improve it in quality over time in a in a really deliberate over time in a in a really deliberate over time in a in a really deliberate way. Uh because we know that we rank for way. Uh because we know that we rank for way. Uh because we know that we rank for a certain term today and we're going to a certain term today and we're going to a certain term today and we're going to want to rank for it tomorrow and next want to rank for it tomorrow and next want to rank for it tomorrow and next month and next year and five years from month and next year and five years from month and next year and five years from now. Like search term volume and search now. Like search term volume and search now. Like search term volume and search volume does not change in a big way.

volume does not change in a big way. volume does not change in a big way. It's it's really consistent, which means It's it's really consistent, which means It's it's really consistent, which means we can go really hard on doubling down we can go really hard on doubling down we can go really hard on doubling down on that content and really upleveling it on that content and really upleveling it on that content and really upleveling it over time. So like I could go through over time. So like I could go through over time. So like I could go through our update program and what that looks our update program and what that looks our update program and what that looks like and most content teams would be like and most content teams would be like and most content teams would be like that's insane. Why would you ever like that's insane. Why would you ever like that's insane. Why would you ever do it that way? Like well that's what do it that way? Like well that's what do it that way? Like well that's what Google wants and it works. Uh and that's Google wants and it works. Uh and that's Google wants and it works. Uh and that's why we do it that way. So one we always why we do it that way. So one we always why we do it that way. So one we always want to be improving our content and two want to be improving our content and two want to be improving our content and two that you there is that freshness that you there is that freshness that you there is that freshness component of the algorithm. The other component of the algorithm. The other component of the algorithm. The other side of everything is you do Yeah, go side of everything is you do Yeah, go side of everything is you do Yeah, go ahead. Sounds like you've got a ahead. Sounds like you've got a ahead. Sounds like you've got a followup. Oh, I was just going to ask um followup. Oh, I was just going to ask um followup. Oh, I was just going to ask um you you talked about content and links you you talked about content and links you you talked about content and links and I mean I think a lot of people will and I mean I think a lot of people will and I mean I think a lot of people will say well how do you build link you know say well how do you build link you know say well how do you build link you know what are you what are you doing? Are you what are you what are you doing? Are you what are you what are you doing? Are you guest posting and linking back? Are you guest posting and linking back? Are you guest posting and linking back? Are you I mean back in the day people used to I mean back in the day people used to I mean back in the day people used to buy links like how do you build links buy links like how do you build links buy links like how do you build links these days? Yeah. So that that is the these days? Yeah. So that that is the these days? Yeah. So that that is the other big component is the links and if other big component is the links and if other big component is the links and if you are in a competitive category you are in a competitive category you are in a competitive category fundamentally you're going to need fundamentally you're going to need fundamentally you're going to need links. End the story. Doesn't matter links. End the story. Doesn't matter links. End the story. Doesn't matter what else you do, you have to find a way what else you do, you have to find a way what else you do, you have to find a way to get links. There's a couple ways to to get links. There's a couple ways to to get links. There's a couple ways to do it depending on how aggressive you do it depending on how aggressive you do it depending on how aggressive you want to be. Uh, like I said, most SAS want to be. Uh, like I said, most SAS want to be. Uh, like I said, most SAS businesses, if you just keep really businesses, if you just keep really businesses, if you just keep really doubling down on your business and just doubling down on your business and just doubling down on your business and just building out like a great blog and doing building out like a great blog and doing building out like a great blog and doing all that conventional like content or all that conventional like content or all that conventional like content or inbound marketing type stuff, you'll end inbound marketing type stuff, you'll end inbound marketing type stuff, you'll end up getting there, especially as you up getting there, especially as you up getting there, especially as you build a really large business. Um, but build a really large business. Um, but build a really large business. Um, but like more specifically, what can you do?

like more specifically, what can you do? like more specifically, what can you do? Uh, guest posting works. I know Google Uh, guest posting works. I know Google Uh, guest posting works. I know Google officially says you shouldn't do it and officially says you shouldn't do it and officially says you shouldn't do it and uh but everybody still does it and it's uh but everybody still does it and it's uh but everybody still does it and it's just just be careful with it. Don't just just be careful with it. Don't just just be careful with it. Don't don't don't like scale it too much, but don't don't like scale it too much, but don't don't like scale it too much, but like a few guest posts here and there like a few guest posts here and there like a few guest posts here and there with some very targeted, you know, like with some very targeted, you know, like with some very targeted, you know, like one link per post back to you type of one link per post back to you type of one link per post back to you type of deal. Uh that stuff does work. Uh and a deal. Uh that stuff does work. Uh and a deal. Uh that stuff does work. Uh and a lot of people do it and for good reason. lot of people do it and for good reason. lot of people do it and for good reason. Uh you can there's all sorts of outreach Uh you can there's all sorts of outreach Uh you can there's all sorts of outreach games you can play. Um, so you know, games you can play. Um, so you know, games you can play. Um, so you know, like a lot of the popular ones are like a lot of the popular ones are like a lot of the popular ones are finding sites with broken links to sites finding sites with broken links to sites finding sites with broken links to sites like yours and then saying, "Hey, the like yours and then saying, "Hey, the like yours and then saying, "Hey, the link, you know, that page is down at link, you know, that page is down at link, you know, that page is down at 404s. You have a broken link on your 404s. You have a broken link on your 404s. You have a broken link on your site." You know, hey, here's a we just site." You know, hey, here's a we just site." You know, hey, here's a we just put out this research, this resource. put out this research, this resource. put out this research, this resource. It'd be perfect as a replacement. You It'd be perfect as a replacement. You It'd be perfect as a replacement. You mind changing it to us? There's a bunch mind changing it to us? There's a bunch mind changing it to us? There's a bunch of these things that I mean, you just of these things that I mean, you just of these things that I mean, you just Google around, you'll find all sorts of Google around, you'll find all sorts of Google around, you'll find all sorts of them. Um, and that stuff does work. You them. Um, and that stuff does work. You them. Um, and that stuff does work. You got to get pretty intense on the volume got to get pretty intense on the volume got to get pretty intense on the volume though because the the response rates though because the the response rates though because the the response rates are always like small. But but if you are always like small. But but if you are always like small. But but if you really want to grind your way to links, really want to grind your way to links, really want to grind your way to links, you end up doing something like that. So you end up doing something like that. So you end up doing something like that. So some crazy guest posting program, some some crazy guest posting program, some some crazy guest posting program, some crazy outreach program. Um as far as crazy outreach program. Um as far as crazy outreach program. Um as far as buying links, I would tell everyone to buying links, I would tell everyone to buying links, I would tell everyone to never do that. Do not do that. Um, I never do that. Do not do that. Um, I never do that. Do not do that. Um, I I've been in the space a long time and I I've been in the space a long time and I I've been in the space a long time and I don't trust anybody to build links don't trust anybody to build links don't trust anybody to build links because they're [ __ ] they'll [ __ ] it because they're [ __ ] they'll [ __ ] it because they're [ __ ] they'll [ __ ] it up. Um, if it's actually the one way you up. Um, if it's actually the one way you up. Um, if it's actually the one way you can destroy a site is with if you build can destroy a site is with if you build can destroy a site is with if you build bad links and you do it wrong, you can

bad links and you do it wrong, you can bad links and you do it wrong, you can totally kill all of your search totally kill all of your search totally kill all of your search authority. So, the risk here is super authority. So, the risk here is super authority. So, the risk here is super super high. You got to be really really super high. You got to be really really super high. You got to be really really authentic and really careful with how authentic and really careful with how authentic and really careful with how you do it. Uh that's why guest posting you do it. Uh that's why guest posting you do it. Uh that's why guest posting like you can kind of you really keep like you can kind of you really keep like you can kind of you really keep control of it and make it like very control of it and make it like very control of it and make it like very legitimate um and not get into any gray legitimate um and not get into any gray legitimate um and not get into any gray water with Google. Same thing with water with Google. Same thing with water with Google. Same thing with outreach. Like you can still do outreach outreach. Like you can still do outreach outreach. Like you can still do outreach stuff that's legitimate and is adding stuff that's legitimate and is adding stuff that's legitimate and is adding value and yeah is it you know any value and yeah is it you know any value and yeah is it you know any outreach or cold email a little spammy? outreach or cold email a little spammy? outreach or cold email a little spammy? Sure. But you can still find tricks and Sure. But you can still find tricks and Sure. But you can still find tricks and and angles where you are actually adding and angles where you are actually adding and angles where you are actually adding value like trying to fix some links. Um value like trying to fix some links. Um value like trying to fix some links. Um are you doing it in a self-s serving are you doing it in a self-s serving are you doing it in a self-s serving way? Sure. But yeah, you're also trying way? Sure. But yeah, you're also trying way? Sure. But yeah, you're also trying to fix a link on a site, right? So, it's to fix a link on a site, right? So, it's to fix a link on a site, right? So, it's there is some value that you're there is some value that you're there is some value that you're contributing there. Uh, buying links, if contributing there. Uh, buying links, if contributing there. Uh, buying links, if you have some vendor, some agency or you have some vendor, some agency or you have some vendor, some agency or someone doing that for you, they're not someone doing that for you, they're not someone doing that for you, they're not going to do any of that. They are going going to do any of that. They are going going to do any of that. They are going to find the fastest, sketchiest way to to find the fastest, sketchiest way to to find the fastest, sketchiest way to get you whatever link volume that you get you whatever link volume that you get you whatever link volume that you just purchased and then they're going to just purchased and then they're going to just purchased and then they're going to move on to the next client. And you do move on to the next client. And you do move on to the next client. And you do too much of that for too long and you too much of that for too long and you too much of that for too long and you will kill your domain. Um, so just stay will kill your domain. Um, so just stay will kill your domain. Um, so just stay away from that. I I don't even touch it.

away from that. I I don't even touch it. away from that. I I don't even touch it. And I I believe I have the expertise to And I I believe I have the expertise to And I I believe I have the expertise to actually evaluate these folks and I I actually evaluate these folks and I I actually evaluate these folks and I I don't find anyone that I actually trust don't find anyone that I actually trust don't find anyone that I actually trust and do it. So I just stay away from it and do it. So I just stay away from it and do it. So I just stay away from it entirely. Yep. Very cool. Wise words, entirely. Yep. Very cool. Wise words, entirely. Yep. Very cool. Wise words, sir. We are over time now. We do have sir. We are over time now. We do have sir. We are over time now. We do have another question, but I think maybe I another question, but I think maybe I another question, but I think maybe I will answer it in Slack afterwards. will answer it in Slack afterwards. will answer it in Slack afterwards. Really appreciate you taking time today, Really appreciate you taking time today, Really appreciate you taking time today, sir. And folks want to up you online. sir. And folks want to up you online. sir. And folks want to up you online. Yeah. Are you on are you on Twitter? Are Yeah. Are you on are you on Twitter? Are Yeah. Are you on are you on Twitter? Are you Lars Lafrren on Twitter? Yeah. Yeah. you Lars Lafrren on Twitter? Yeah. Yeah. you Lars Lafrren on Twitter? Yeah. Yeah. Lars, Lars Lafgrid. You can find me. Lars, Lars Lafgrid. You can find me. Lars, Lars Lafgrid. You can find me. It's a very quiet account, so if you It's a very quiet account, so if you It's a very quiet account, so if you follow me, don't expect any active follow me, don't expect any active follow me, don't expect any active content, but if you ever want to hit me content, but if you ever want to hit me content, but if you ever want to hit me up, that's a good way to do it. up, that's a good way to do it. up, that's a good way to do it. Sounds great, man. Thanks again. Hope to Sounds great, man. Thanks again. Hope to Sounds great, man. Thanks again. Hope to see you in person maybe in 2021, see you in person maybe in 2021, see you in person maybe in 2021, assuming that great to see you at a assuming that great to see you at a assuming that great to see you at a microcon or something. All right, microcon or something. All right, microcon or something. All right, thanks, Rob. thanks, Rob. thanks, Rob. All right, we are wrapping up for today. All right, we are wrapping up for today. All right, we are wrapping up for today. Thanks for joining us and thank you as Thanks for joining us and thank you as Thanks for joining us and thank you as always to Hey and Stripe for supporting always to Hey and Stripe for supporting always to Hey and Stripe for supporting Microcom. We love having them aboard.

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