Founder Spotlight with Edwin Williams and Tony Chan – MicroConf On Air

welcome welcome we are live this is today's episode of we are live this is today's episode of we are live this is today's episode of microconf on air i am your host rob microconf on air i am your host rob microconf on air i am your host rob wallen every wednesday we live stream wallen every wednesday we live stream wallen every wednesday we live stream for about 30 minutes for about 30 minutes for about 30 minutes we cover topics related to building and we cover topics related to building and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious startups growing ambitious startups growing ambitious startups that don't require us to work 80-hour that don't require us to work 80-hour that don't require us to work 80-hour weeks raise millions in venture capital weeks raise millions in venture capital weeks raise millions in venture capital or drive us to the brink of burnout we or drive us to the brink of burnout we or drive us to the brink of burnout we believe in a long-term mindset we think believe in a long-term mindset we think believe in a long-term mindset we think in terms of years not in terms of years not in terms of years not months and as such we don't grind months and as such we don't grind months and as such we don't grind ourselves into ourselves into ourselves into little little pieces of human flesh by little little pieces of human flesh by little little pieces of human flesh by working these crazy hours and working these crazy hours and working these crazy hours and sacrificing our mental health or our sacrificing our mental health or our sacrificing our mental health or our relationships relationships relationships that's what microconf startup to the that's what microconf startup to the that's what microconf startup to the rest of us is all about and that's rest of us is all about and that's rest of us is all about and that's the lens through which we view startups the lens through which we view startups the lens through which we view startups today i'm excited to have a slightly today i'm excited to have a slightly today i'm excited to have a slightly different episode format i guess we did different episode format i guess we did different episode format i guess we did one of these uh in the past one of these uh in the past one of these uh in the past but we're doing what's called a founder but we're doing what's called a founder but we're doing what's called a founder spotlight a microkoff connect spotlight a microkoff connect spotlight a microkoff connect founder spotlight and so if you haven't founder spotlight and so if you haven't founder spotlight and so if you haven't heard heard heard i'd be surprised because i say it every i'd be surprised because i say it every i'd be surprised because i say it every week on this on this live stream week on this on this live stream week on this on this live stream but microsoft connect is microcomp's but microsoft connect is microcomp's but microsoft connect is microcomp's year-round slack channel year-round slack channel year-round slack channel and it's our online community and we and it's our online community and we and it's our online community and we have 1100 and i don't know 50 founders have 1100 and i don't know 50 founders have 1100 and i don't know 50 founders or something approaching 1200 at this or something approaching 1200 at this or something approaching 1200 at this point point point who are in there uh ambitious building who are in there uh ambitious building who are in there uh ambitious building cool things most are bootstrapped cool things most are bootstrapped cool things most are bootstrapped they're so much self-funded some are they're so much self-funded some are they're so much self-funded some are very small amounts of money but it's you very small amounts of money but it's you very small amounts of money but it's you know it's not the venture track know it's not the venture track know it's not the venture track go crazy ask people for permission to go crazy ask people for permission to go crazy ask people for permission to build your business it's hey let's let's build your business it's hey let's let's build your business it's hey let's let's actually build a real business for real actually build a real business for real actually build a real business for real customers are paying us real money customers are paying us real money customers are paying us real money rather than rather than rather than sitting around waiting for someone to sitting around waiting for someone to sitting around waiting for someone to write us a check to be able to do it write us a check to be able to do it write us a check to be able to do it and so today uh we're going to be and so today uh we're going to be and so today uh we're going to be talking with two of our talking with two of our talking with two of our connect founders who are at different connect founders who are at different connect founders who are at different stages so it'll be kind of stages so it'll be kind of stages so it'll be kind of fun to get to know these folks the first

fun to get to know these folks the first fun to get to know these folks the first founder i want to bring on and we'll founder i want to bring on and we'll founder i want to bring on and we'll talk for about half the episode then talk for about half the episode then talk for about half the episode then we'll transition we'll transition we'll transition to second the first one is edwin to second the first one is edwin to second the first one is edwin williams he's the founder and ceo of williams he's the founder and ceo of williams he's the founder and ceo of zen hammer which he calls the pocket zen hammer which he calls the pocket zen hammer which he calls the pocket office for subcontractors office for subcontractors office for subcontractors and that's construction i believe right and that's construction i believe right and that's construction i believe right not uh not like developer subcontractors not uh not like developer subcontractors not uh not like developer subcontractors he's also the associate vp of the he's also the associate vp of the he's also the associate vp of the johnson city tennessee area home johnson city tennessee area home johnson city tennessee area home builders association builders association builders association as a reminder if you have questions put as a reminder if you have questions put as a reminder if you have questions put them in the micrograph on air channel in them in the micrograph on air channel in them in the micrograph on air channel in microconf connect microconf connect microconf connect i'm going to ask him a few questions and i'm going to ask him a few questions and i'm going to ask him a few questions and as we go if you have any uh it'd be as we go if you have any uh it'd be as we go if you have any uh it'd be great great great if you could um let us know so i can ask if you could um let us know so i can ask if you could um let us know so i can ask him to edwin him to edwin him to edwin so edwin welcome to the show sir so edwin welcome to the show sir so edwin welcome to the show sir thank you for having me it's great to thank you for having me it's great to thank you for having me it's great to see you again i know see you again i know see you again i know you missed the last conference but yeah you missed the last conference but yeah you missed the last conference but yeah yeah i know it's great to have you here yeah i know it's great to have you here yeah i know it's great to have you here man i'm glad to hear or i'm happy to be man i'm glad to hear or i'm happy to be man i'm glad to hear or i'm happy to be able to dig into what you've been doing able to dig into what you've been doing able to dig into what you've been doing with zen hammer with zen hammer with zen hammer we were talking offline right before we we were talking offline right before we we were talking offline right before we we started streaming that we started streaming that we started streaming that you were gonna launch a couple weeks ago you were gonna launch a couple weeks ago you were gonna launch a couple weeks ago you ran into some technical issues and you ran into some technical issues and you ran into some technical issues and so you're you're looking to launch in so you're you're looking to launch in so you're you're looking to launch in the next week or two the next week or two the next week or two that right yes yeah um turn everything that right yes yeah um turn everything that right yes yeah um turn everything live and go live and go live and go it's exciting it's scary uh we've got it's exciting it's scary uh we've got it's exciting it's scary uh we've got some some some website that redesigns to do as well but website that redesigns to do as well but website that redesigns to do as well but yeah i'm really excited yeah i'm really excited yeah i'm really excited really scared but that's life that's really scared but that's life that's really scared but that's life that's that's par for the course that's why we that's par for the course that's why we that's par for the course that's why we do this i think right both to scare do this i think right both to scare do this i think right both to scare ourselves and also to uh ourselves and also to uh ourselves and also to uh i don't know to just just feel alive sir i don't know to just just feel alive sir i don't know to just just feel alive sir so do you have a uh do you have a nice so do you have a uh do you have a nice so do you have a uh do you have a nice you have an email launch list then like you have an email launch list then like you have an email launch list then like kind of what are your plans for the kind of what are your plans for the kind of what are your plans for the launch rollout i'm curious this is off launch rollout i'm curious this is off launch rollout i'm curious this is off script by the way i script by the way i script by the way i i had a list of questions that i talked

i had a list of questions that i talked i had a list of questions that i talked to edwin about and then i'm just i'm to edwin about and then i'm just i'm to edwin about and then i'm just i'm just gonna just gonna just gonna play it play by ear here but i i just play it play by ear here but i i just play it play by ear here but i i just realized i wanted to hear more about you realized i wanted to hear more about you realized i wanted to hear more about you know what you're thinking in terms of know what you're thinking in terms of know what you're thinking in terms of that that that so yes i actually have a pretty good so yes i actually have a pretty good so yes i actually have a pretty good email list email list email list um i've collected over the last couple um i've collected over the last couple um i've collected over the last couple years from when we did purcerbid years from when we did purcerbid years from when we did purcerbid pre-pivot to zen hammer and even with pre-pivot to zen hammer and even with pre-pivot to zen hammer and even with the last year with going to different the last year with going to different the last year with going to different associations associations associations meeting people getting their contacts meeting people getting their contacts meeting people getting their contacts people were like this is cool keep us people were like this is cool keep us people were like this is cool keep us updated updated updated and so i've built out like about a and so i've built out like about a and so i've built out like about a couple hundred personal contacts i've couple hundred personal contacts i've couple hundred personal contacts i've made made made start with that group as warm email start with that group as warm email start with that group as warm email marketing marketing marketing and then move from there to like and then move from there to like and then move from there to like visiting associations visiting associations visiting associations um facebook campaigns and um facebook campaigns and um facebook campaigns and other methods of reaching the market all other methods of reaching the market all other methods of reaching the market all right right right cool and so that's that you know in the cool and so that's that you know in the cool and so that's that you know in the conversation today i mean i think i have conversation today i mean i think i have conversation today i mean i think i have a couple goals number one a couple goals number one a couple goals number one there are there are folks in connect who there are there are folks in connect who there are there are folks in connect who you know you know you know want to hear your story because they see want to hear your story because they see want to hear your story because they see you in in connect talking about things you in in connect talking about things you in in connect talking about things and it's always nice to just know more and it's always nice to just know more and it's always nice to just know more about the founders that you're about the founders that you're about the founders that you're interacting with so i want to hear a interacting with so i want to hear a interacting with so i want to hear a little more about that little more about that little more about that in addition it's nice to bring in some in addition it's nice to bring in some in addition it's nice to bring in some some learnings you know some learnings some learnings you know some learnings some learnings you know some learnings from your experiences that of things you from your experiences that of things you from your experiences that of things you feel like you've done well feel like you've done well feel like you've done well things maybe you made a mistake and have things maybe you made a mistake and have things maybe you made a mistake and have learned from learned from learned from including i mean you just mentioned you including i mean you just mentioned you including i mean you just mentioned you know you pivoted like i want to start know you pivoted like i want to start know you pivoted like i want to start with this you pivoted with this you pivoted with this you pivoted your prior app to to zenhammer um you your prior app to to zenhammer um you your prior app to to zenhammer um you want to want to want to tell us you know what you learned doing tell us you know what you learned doing tell us you know what you learned doing this and what that process was like this and what that process was like this and what that process was like so yeah um when we i started uh so yeah um when we i started uh so yeah um when we i started uh the idea was per service personal the idea was per service personal the idea was per service personal service bidding

service bidding service bidding where contractors or homeowners could where contractors or homeowners could where contractors or homeowners could post jobs and contractors would bid on post jobs and contractors would bid on post jobs and contractors would bid on them and we told the money in escrow them and we told the money in escrow them and we told the money in escrow and so like a two-sided marketplace yes and so like a two-sided marketplace yes and so like a two-sided marketplace yes and uh i'll never forget my first and uh i'll never forget my first and uh i'll never forget my first microconf conference microconf conference microconf conference everybody was like don't do marketplaces everybody was like don't do marketplaces everybody was like don't do marketplaces don't do it yeah don't do it yeah don't do it yeah if you had written into me on the if you had written into me on the if you had written into me on the podcast i'd have been like here's my podcast i'd have been like here's my podcast i'd have been like here's my first piece of advice first piece of advice first piece of advice don't do it so yeah they're they're hard don't do it so yeah they're they're hard don't do it so yeah they're they're hard but so but so but so did you try to get that going and it was did you try to get that going and it was did you try to get that going and it was it was brutal and it was brutal and it was brutal and we ran into a couple interesting we ran into a couple interesting we ran into a couple interesting problems not exactly what we expected problems not exactly what we expected problems not exactly what we expected uh one problem was that the jobs were uh one problem was that the jobs were uh one problem was that the jobs were getting posted getting posted getting posted but at least in our area the contractors but at least in our area the contractors but at least in our area the contractors were busy and couldn't were busy and couldn't were busy and couldn't couldn't address those jobs so they're couldn't address those jobs so they're couldn't address those jobs so they're like if the people could wait like if the people could wait like if the people could wait six months we can get to them but nobody six months we can get to them but nobody six months we can get to them but nobody wants to wait six months wants to wait six months wants to wait six months to have their deck remodeled and then we to have their deck remodeled and then we to have their deck remodeled and then we also had a couple technical issues also had a couple technical issues also had a couple technical issues as well and so as as well and so as as well and so as things weren't going as planned we came things weren't going as planned we came things weren't going as planned we came we were actually at the point of calling we were actually at the point of calling we were actually at the point of calling it quits it quits it quits and the contractors in the area were and the contractors in the area were and the contractors in the area were like don't quit you're almost there like don't quit you're almost there like don't quit you're almost there here's what we really want and so here's what we really want and so here's what we really want and so what the biggest thing that i'd say i'd what the biggest thing that i'd say i'd what the biggest thing that i'd say i'd learned out of the pivot was learned out of the pivot was learned out of the pivot was we were asking the wrong question we were asking the wrong question we were asking the wrong question for our market the contractors didn't for our market the contractors didn't for our market the contractors didn't need more customers they just needed a need more customers they just needed a need more customers they just needed a better better better way to handle the customers or way to handle the customers or way to handle the customers or yeah so we sat down with them sat down yeah so we sat down with them sat down yeah so we sat down with them sat down with our friends and with our friends and with our friends and advisors and we moppeded our business advisors and we moppeded our business advisors and we moppeded our business model model model um came up with zen hammer uh the name

um came up with zen hammer uh the name um came up with zen hammer uh the name zenhammer zenhammer zenhammer i was basically told the contractors in i was basically told the contractors in i was basically told the contractors in our market hey our market hey our market hey if you want me to build this out for you if you want me to build this out for you if you want me to build this out for you you have to help me name it so i you have to help me name it so i you have to help me name it so i brainstormed some names push it out to brainstormed some names push it out to brainstormed some names push it out to several people several people several people they came back with the several names they came back with the several names they came back with the several names and then we had a vote and then we had a vote and then we had a vote and zen hammer came out on top so that's and zen hammer came out on top so that's and zen hammer came out on top so that's actually how we picked the names in actually how we picked the names in actually how we picked the names in hammer so hammer so hammer so crazy was it influenced at all by my crazy was it influenced at all by my crazy was it influenced at all by my wife zen founder wife zen founder wife zen founder i'm guessing no i didn't know your wife i'm guessing no i didn't know your wife i'm guessing no i didn't know your wife [Music] [Music] [Music] that's her twitter handle and her that's her twitter handle and her that's her twitter handle and her podcast name yeah so no no okay so keep podcast name yeah so no no okay so keep podcast name yeah so no no okay so keep keep going with that so that's super keep going with that so that's super keep going with that so that's super interesting then so you launch this interesting then so you launch this interesting then so you launch this marketplace it's not working the marketplace it's not working the marketplace it's not working the contractors are saying ah don't shut it contractors are saying ah don't shut it contractors are saying ah don't shut it down what we really need is down what we really need is down what we really need is is the ability to it manage is the ability to it manage is the ability to it manage communications is that the idea with communications is that the idea with communications is that the idea with yeah so they were basically telling you yeah so they were basically telling you yeah so they were basically telling you that's really cool how many contractors that's really cool how many contractors that's really cool how many contractors were using it at that time were using it at that time were using it at that time or were at least you know on the i had about roughly i had about roughly 86 to 90 contractors who on there 86 to 90 contractors who on there 86 to 90 contractors who on there um what and then my and um what and then my and um what and then my and contractors i've been talking to on a contractors i've been talking to on a contractors i've been talking to on a regular basis but i hadn't signed up regular basis but i hadn't signed up regular basis but i hadn't signed up that list goes up to about 200. but that list goes up to about 200. but that list goes up to about 200. but the they were saying this is what we'd the they were saying this is what we'd the they were saying this is what we'd like like like this is what we want here's what's in this is what we want here's what's in this is what we want here's what's in the market here's what has not been the market here's what has not been the market here's what has not been addressed addressed addressed and so when we sat down and wrote and and so when we sat down and wrote and and so when we sat down and wrote and we're like okay what's the really big we're like okay what's the really big we're like okay what's the really big idea idea idea we sat down together with the big idea we sat down together with the big idea we sat down together with the big idea and then we scaled it back just like and then we scaled it back just like and then we scaled it back just like okay okay okay where do we start and they're like well where do we start and they're like well where do we start and they're like well if you start right here if you start right here if you start right here that will help us a lot so that's where

that will help us a lot so that's where that will help us a lot so that's where we're starting we're starting we're starting and it's the quickest and it's the quickest and it's the quickest easiest version that we can get out that easiest version that we can get out that easiest version that we can get out that does does does the core things that they need done so the core things that they need done so the core things that they need done so that's super helpful that's super helpful that's super helpful it's super helpful to have those 86 it's super helpful to have those 86 it's super helpful to have those 86 contractors right or the 90 contractors contractors right or the 90 contractors contractors right or the 90 contractors so so so i'm curious how you know i imagine i'm curious how you know i imagine i'm curious how you know i imagine someone listening to this is thinking someone listening to this is thinking someone listening to this is thinking well how do you get 90 contractors even well how do you get 90 contractors even well how do you get 90 contractors even interested in this app what was that interested in this app what was that interested in this app what was that process like process like process like ah that's not a personal face to face ah that's not a personal face to face ah that's not a personal face to face um yeah and so like uh back to the when um yeah and so like uh back to the when um yeah and so like uh back to the when i started preserving i walked into the i started preserving i walked into the i started preserving i walked into the front door of the johnson city area home front door of the johnson city area home front door of the johnson city area home builders association builders association builders association and pitched the idea for them and the and pitched the idea for them and the and pitched the idea for them and the original idea they're like original idea they're like original idea they're like we don't think that'll work but if you we don't think that'll work but if you we don't think that'll work but if you join us join us join us and have the contractors talk to and have the contractors talk to and have the contractors talk to contractors you can tweet the idea contractors you can tweet the idea contractors you can tweet the idea and so that's how i got into the and so that's how i got into the and so that's how i got into the association association association and then just by working with them over and then just by working with them over and then just by working with them over the years the years the years that's how i got the list that's how that's how i got the list that's how that's how i got the list that's how they signed up they signed up they signed up um and so it was a lot of personal um and so it was a lot of personal um and so it was a lot of personal equity put into like meeting the people equity put into like meeting the people equity put into like meeting the people sitting down with them sitting down with them sitting down with them finding out what they want that type of finding out what they want that type of finding out what they want that type of thing yeah it's like it's like a thing yeah it's like it's like a thing yeah it's like it's like a different form of you know you think different form of you know you think different form of you know you think about folks who build an audience right about folks who build an audience right about folks who build an audience right you know you know uh whatever a you know you know uh whatever a you know you know uh whatever a base camp you know dhh and jason freed base camp you know dhh and jason freed base camp you know dhh and jason freed or justin jackson or myself or whatever or justin jackson or myself or whatever or justin jackson or myself or whatever and if you spend these years doing a and if you spend these years doing a and if you spend these years doing a podcast doing a blog whatever podcast doing a blog whatever podcast doing a blog whatever you did it in such a unique way where you did it in such a unique way where you did it in such a unique way where you went to a homeowner's you went to a homeowner's you went to a homeowner's not a homeowners a home builders not a homeowners a home builders not a homeowners a home builders association in johnson city tennessee association in johnson city tennessee association in johnson city tennessee was where you live was where you live was where you live and you just started talking to him and and you just started talking to him and and you just started talking to him and then you became the associate vp and

then you became the associate vp and then you became the associate vp and suddenly that's uh suddenly that's uh suddenly that's uh that that becomes a thing i find that a that that becomes a thing i find that a that that becomes a thing i find that a pretty fascinating approach and one i pretty fascinating approach and one i pretty fascinating approach and one i haven't haven't really heard haven't haven't really heard haven't haven't really heard you know before yeah i'm getting a you know before yeah i'm getting a you know before yeah i'm getting a question in slack sorry yeah yeah you question in slack sorry yeah yeah you question in slack sorry yeah yeah you can keep going with that can keep going with that can keep going with that so yeah then now we're at the point so yeah then now we're at the point so yeah then now we're at the point where where where we're getting ready to launch and we we're getting ready to launch and we we're getting ready to launch and we have have have all the contractors who've helped us all the contractors who've helped us all the contractors who've helped us with through the redesign with through the redesign with through the redesign the test and so we're pretty excited the test and so we're pretty excited the test and so we're pretty excited about about about the reach that we hopefully will have the reach that we hopefully will have the reach that we hopefully will have over the next over the next over the next rest of the year going into 2021. cool rest of the year going into 2021. cool rest of the year going into 2021. cool we have a question from pablo he says we have a question from pablo he says we have a question from pablo he says are you using braintree marketplace or are you using braintree marketplace or are you using braintree marketplace or have you evaluated it have you evaluated it have you evaluated it but i guess if you're not running a but i guess if you're not running a but i guess if you're not running a marketplace anymore you wouldn't right marketplace anymore you wouldn't right marketplace anymore you wouldn't right yeah so uh we used braintree marketplace yeah so uh we used braintree marketplace yeah so uh we used braintree marketplace when we were under preservid when we were under preservid when we were under preservid but when we um pivot did our pivot but when we um pivot did our pivot but when we um pivot did our pivot we kind of threw the old stack away and we kind of threw the old stack away and we kind of threw the old stack away and built from the ground up and now we're built from the ground up and now we're built from the ground up and now we're using stripe connect using stripe connect using stripe connect um for our okay cool uh we do have a um for our okay cool uh we do have a um for our okay cool uh we do have a question another question this is from question another question this is from question another question this is from uh uh uh tony from cloudforecast who will be the tony from cloudforecast who will be the tony from cloudforecast who will be the next uh founder spotlight but he says next uh founder spotlight but he says next uh founder spotlight but he says um what he says do you have any goals or um what he says do you have any goals or um what he says do you have any goals or expectations expectations expectations about this upcoming launch and i'll even about this upcoming launch and i'll even about this upcoming launch and i'll even add to that add to that add to that like yeah okay cool go go with it then like yeah okay cool go go with it then like yeah okay cool go go with it then i'd love to describe that i'd love to describe that i'd love to describe that so um our goal is so um our goal is so um our goal is for the next uh for q3 to finish out q3 for the next uh for q3 to finish out q3 for the next uh for q3 to finish out q3 is is is 25 paying subscribers by end of q3 25 paying subscribers by end of q3 25 paying subscribers by end of q3 and then another 150 q4 um

and then another 150 q4 um and then another 150 q4 um and then our goal then for 2021 like and then our goal then for 2021 like and then our goal then for 2021 like going out going out going out we want to get at least 200 users paying subscribers by the end 200 users paying subscribers by the end of of of this year is our goal what's your this year is our goal what's your this year is our goal what's your what's your price point approximately uh what's your price point approximately uh what's your price point approximately uh 49 49 49 a month the subscription and then when a month the subscription and then when a month the subscription and then when we add we add we add our next feature we'll be taking a small our next feature we'll be taking a small our next feature we'll be taking a small percentage off of transaction fees percentage off of transaction fees percentage off of transaction fees between between between contracts right cool so contracts right cool so contracts right cool so just between you and i since no one else just between you and i since no one else just between you and i since no one else is listening is listening is listening i would i love the idea of moving to sas i would i love the idea of moving to sas i would i love the idea of moving to sas from a marketplace like from a marketplace like from a marketplace like it's it's going from one of the hardest it's it's going from one of the hardest it's it's going from one of the hardest businesses where you need all this stuff businesses where you need all this stuff businesses where you need all this stuff to happen all at once really quickly to happen all at once really quickly to happen all at once really quickly to like i don't know if we have five to like i don't know if we have five to like i don't know if we have five customers we provide them with the same customers we provide them with the same customers we provide them with the same value as if we have five value as if we have five value as if we have five thousand right and as bootstrappers or thousand right and as bootstrappers or thousand right and as bootstrappers or you know early stage folks that's super you know early stage folks that's super you know early stage folks that's super valuable valuable valuable the i want to ask a little bit about the i want to ask a little bit about the i want to ask a little bit about your network where we're we have about your network where we're we have about your network where we're we have about three or four more minutes before we three or four more minutes before we three or four more minutes before we have to bring tony have to bring tony have to bring tony but um i have two more questions for you but um i have two more questions for you but um i have two more questions for you the first one is the first one is the first one is you mentioned specifically um when you you mentioned specifically um when you you mentioned specifically um when you applied for the founder spotlight applied for the founder spotlight applied for the founder spotlight and by the way yes if anyone if you're and by the way yes if anyone if you're and by the way yes if anyone if you're in connect and you want to be in connect and you want to be in connect and you want to be uh you know potentially featured on uh uh you know potentially featured on uh uh you know potentially featured on uh microconf on air microconf on air microconf on air um i think producer xander will post a um i think producer xander will post a um i think producer xander will post a link into um the slack channel the link into um the slack channel the link into um the slack channel the on-air slack channel and you can apply on-air slack channel and you can apply on-air slack channel and you can apply but in your application you mentioned but in your application you mentioned but in your application you mentioned that one of the things you feel like you that one of the things you feel like you that one of the things you feel like you did really well did really well did really well while while building zen hammer is you while while building zen hammer is you while while building zen hammer is you built a built a built a really strong network and i'm curious really strong network and i'm curious really strong network and i'm curious what benefit like specific benefits did what benefit like specific benefits did what benefit like specific benefits did you gain from that you gain from that you gain from that so um one of the things like for through

so um one of the things like for through so um one of the things like for through the network was experience that i the network was experience that i the network was experience that i didn't have so where there was didn't have so where there was didn't have so where there was information that i didn't know information that i didn't know information that i didn't know like when i started i was non-technical like when i started i was non-technical like when i started i was non-technical and i've learned and i've learned and i've learned programming over the years and that's programming over the years and that's programming over the years and that's come from come from come from studying talking to other founders who studying talking to other founders who studying talking to other founders who have the skills like how do i do this have the skills like how do i do this have the skills like how do i do this what's to do and um even though what's to do and um even though what's to do and um even though i'm not the doing heavy lifting um i i'm not the doing heavy lifting um i i'm not the doing heavy lifting um i still understand what's going on still understand what's going on still understand what's going on even though i'm focused on the sales of even though i'm focused on the sales of even though i'm focused on the sales of marketing marketing marketing also um experience in the industry also um experience in the industry also um experience in the industry i learned a lot about the building i learned a lot about the building i learned a lot about the building industry the building industry needs industry the building industry needs industry the building industry needs from meeting people in the industry from meeting people in the industry from meeting people in the industry listening to them talk listening to them talk listening to them talk hearing them complain about what they hearing them complain about what they hearing them complain about what they what wasn't serving them um what wasn't serving them um what wasn't serving them um and trying to figure out okay nobody's and trying to figure out okay nobody's and trying to figure out okay nobody's addressing that specific thing addressing that specific thing addressing that specific thing how do i help them in that specific area how do i help them in that specific area how do i help them in that specific area and get there um and building that and get there um and building that and get there um and building that network was network was network was a bunch of again meeting people a bunch of again meeting people a bunch of again meeting people volunteering for events in the industry volunteering for events in the industry volunteering for events in the industry helping people in the industry helping people in the industry helping people in the industry and then just doing what i could to and then just doing what i could to and then just doing what i could to get to know the industry and get to know the industry and get to know the industry and building it's been extremely helpful and building it's been extremely helpful and building it's been extremely helpful and it's allowed me to go to like other it's allowed me to go to like other it's allowed me to go to like other markets and say hey markets and say hey markets and say hey i'm new here but here's who i know i'm new here but here's who i know i'm new here but here's who i know here's where i come from here's what i here's where i come from here's what i here's where i come from here's what i do do do and like oh come in and it's given me and like oh come in and it's given me and like oh come in and it's given me access to other industry networks across access to other industry networks across access to other industry networks across the country

the country the country yeah yeah totally and that's a lot of yeah yeah totally and that's a lot of yeah yeah totally and that's a lot of that's a lot of hustle it's a lot of that's a lot of hustle it's a lot of that's a lot of hustle it's a lot of hard work and frankly it's a lot of hard work and frankly it's a lot of hard work and frankly it's a lot of things that some especially i would say things that some especially i would say things that some especially i would say more people like me who are more more people like me who are more more people like me who are more developers developers developers don't want to do when they're launching don't want to do when they're launching don't want to do when they're launching a sas right they don't want to get out a sas right they don't want to get out a sas right they don't want to get out of there out of their basement and they of there out of their basement and they of there out of their basement and they don't want to go don't want to go don't want to go um you know shake hands and and make um you know shake hands and and make um you know shake hands and and make in-person connections but it is in-person connections but it is in-person connections but it is incredibly valuable and so i think incredibly valuable and so i think incredibly valuable and so i think that's a lesson that folks should take that's a lesson that folks should take that's a lesson that folks should take away from your experience away from your experience away from your experience um last question for you we have about a um last question for you we have about a um last question for you we have about a minute i wanna minute i wanna minute i wanna hear you specifically mention one of hear you specifically mention one of hear you specifically mention one of your regrets or a kind of a mistake you your regrets or a kind of a mistake you your regrets or a kind of a mistake you made made made was listening to the wrong people when was listening to the wrong people when was listening to the wrong people when you first got started so um one of the problems especially so um one of the problems especially like like like when you don't have any entrepreneur when you don't have any entrepreneur when you don't have any entrepreneur back people in your life back people in your life back people in your life is you don't know who to ask information is you don't know who to ask information is you don't know who to ask information from so from so from so um one of the big mistakes i um one of the big mistakes i um one of the big mistakes i wish i hadn't listened to was someone wish i hadn't listened to was someone wish i hadn't listened to was someone told me that i never needed to learn told me that i never needed to learn told me that i never needed to learn programming i can just hire it out programming i can just hire it out programming i can just hire it out without understanding without understanding without understanding the code if i could go back i would have the code if i could go back i would have the code if i could go back i would have told myself told myself told myself back then learn the basics so you back then learn the basics so you back then learn the basics so you understand what's going on understand what's going on understand what's going on um to know if what's happened what's um to know if what's happened what's um to know if what's happened what's being written being written being written is correct or not and that type of thing is correct or not and that type of thing is correct or not and that type of thing um also just basic business practices um also just basic business practices um also just basic business practices um there's a lot of um there's a lot of um there's a lot of wrong information um i blame the movie wrong information um i blame the movie wrong information um i blame the movie the social network for that the social network for that the social network for that where they're like you built it and where they're like you built it and where they're like you built it and people are just supposed to show up people are just supposed to show up people are just supposed to show up and you get a million dollars it does and you get a million dollars it does and you get a million dollars it does not work like that not work like that not work like that uh and nobody tells you that if you

uh and nobody tells you that if you uh and nobody tells you that if you don't know don't know don't know who to talk to right so um who to talk to right so um who to talk to right so um finding the correct mentors the correct finding the correct mentors the correct finding the correct mentors the correct people to talk to people to talk to people to talk to i try to find people who have built i try to find people who have built i try to find people who have built businesses businesses businesses who do marketing who do program who are who do marketing who do program who are who do marketing who do program who are good programmers good programmers good programmers ask them for their advice and try ask them for their advice and try ask them for their advice and try to learn from the mistakes that they to learn from the mistakes that they to learn from the mistakes that they made so you don't make them yes you're made so you don't make them yes you're made so you don't make them yes you're going to make mistakes but the goal is going to make mistakes but the goal is going to make mistakes but the goal is to make them to make them to make them learn from them as fast as possible learn from them as fast as possible learn from them as fast as possible iterate and make that iterate and make that iterate and make that as quick as possible i'm not going to as quick as possible i'm not going to as quick as possible i'm not going to say as painless as possible say as painless as possible say as painless as possible but as quick as possible but yeah but as quick as possible but yeah but as quick as possible but yeah it's i'd say if i had the correct it's i'd say if i had the correct it's i'd say if i had the correct information things would have gone a lot differently things would have gone a lot differently um i'm not going to say smoother as well um i'm not going to say smoother as well um i'm not going to say smoother as well but right we might get there a lot but right we might get there a lot but right we might get there a lot faster is typically how i think about it faster is typically how i think about it faster is typically how i think about it i think a lot of us especially i think a lot of us especially i think a lot of us especially when we become bootstrappers are when we become bootstrappers are when we become bootstrappers are self-funded we've already gone down the self-funded we've already gone down the self-funded we've already gone down the venture path because we thought it was venture path because we thought it was venture path because we thought it was the only path because that's all the only path because that's all the only path because that's all everybody talks about and everybody talks about and everybody talks about and and people you say i'm gonna start a and people you say i'm gonna start a and people you say i'm gonna start a software company they say okay so go software company they say okay so go software company they say okay so go raise build a deck and raise money and raise build a deck and raise money and raise build a deck and raise money and it's like wait a minute like why is it's like wait a minute like why is it's like wait a minute like why is everyone saying that like everyone saying that like everyone saying that like there's so many like zen hammer can be there's so many like zen hammer can be there's so many like zen hammer can be wildly successful wildly successful wildly successful and change your life and not need any of and change your life and not need any of and change your life and not need any of that you know so it's it's having and that you know so it's it's having and that you know so it's it's having and that's part of our mission right i mean that's part of our mission right i mean that's part of our mission right i mean that's part of the microconf started for that's part of the microconf started for that's part of the microconf started for the rest of us the rest of us the rest of us chinese mission is to like you know to chinese mission is to like you know to chinese mission is to like you know to not only offer that alternative but to not only offer that alternative but to not only offer that alternative but to promote it such that people know promote it such that people know promote it such that people know that there there are these other options that there there are these other options that there there are these other options out there and it's it's better or worse out there and it's it's better or worse out there and it's it's better or worse than venture capital depending on your than venture capital depending on your than venture capital depending on your goals and goals and goals and how you want to go about it so edwin how you want to go about it so edwin how you want to go about it so edwin thank you so much for joining me today thank you so much for joining me today thank you so much for joining me today man it was great to catch up

man it was great to catch up man it was great to catch up i i look forward to seeing you at a i i look forward to seeing you at a i i look forward to seeing you at a future micro conference we're able to uh future micro conference we're able to uh future micro conference we're able to uh get back in person get back in person get back in person all right sir take it easy all right all right sir take it easy all right all right sir take it easy all right now our second guest is mr tony chan now our second guest is mr tony chan now our second guest is mr tony chan he's the co-founder and ceo of cloud he's the co-founder and ceo of cloud he's the co-founder and ceo of cloud forecast and their h1 tag on forecast and their h1 tag on forecast and their h1 tag on cloudforecast.io is monitor and cloudforecast.io is monitor and cloudforecast.io is monitor and eliminate wasted costs eliminate wasted costs eliminate wasted costs in aws without spending significant in aws without spending significant in aws without spending significant engineering time and resources engineering time and resources engineering time and resources so amazon web services their track and so amazon web services their track and so amazon web services their track and billing and they're helping you do it billing and they're helping you do it billing and they're helping you do it more efficiently more efficiently more efficiently prior to cloud forecast he worked at prior to cloud forecast he worked at prior to cloud forecast he worked at perfect audience which some of you may perfect audience which some of you may perfect audience which some of you may have heard about that was actually the have heard about that was actually the have heard about that was actually the first platform i ever used to uh to do first platform i ever used to uh to do first platform i ever used to uh to do retargeting advertising was before retargeting advertising was before retargeting advertising was before google and facebook offered it google and facebook offered it google and facebook offered it specifically um perfect audience was was specifically um perfect audience was was specifically um perfect audience was was this great platform this great platform this great platform i love how he added this little personal i love how he added this little personal i love how he added this little personal bit and i love it outside of work his bit and i love it outside of work his bit and i love it outside of work his interests include interests include interests include tuning import cars think hondas eating tuning import cars think hondas eating tuning import cars think hondas eating and cooking travel and and cooking travel and and cooking travel and asian american history tony chan welcome asian american history tony chan welcome asian american history tony chan welcome to the show to the show to the show thank you so much first time caller long thank you so much first time caller long thank you so much first time caller long time listener so yeah time listener so yeah time listener so yeah awesome man yeah i've known you for awesome man yeah i've known you for awesome man yeah i've known you for quite some time so it's great to quite some time so it's great to quite some time so it's great to be part of this uh community and podcast be part of this uh community and podcast be part of this uh community and podcast here here here absolutely it's a pleasure to have you absolutely it's a pleasure to have you absolutely it's a pleasure to have you on we've done several phone calls over on we've done several phone calls over on we've done several phone calls over the past couple of years so i kind of the past couple of years so i kind of the past couple of years so i kind of have some pretty good context of cloud have some pretty good context of cloud have some pretty good context of cloud forecast where you've been and where forecast where you've been and where forecast where you've been and where you're headed you're headed you're headed uh yeah you're pretty much a lot about uh yeah you're pretty much a lot about uh yeah you're pretty much a lot about us i know us i know us i know i know it's surprising well you follow a i know it's surprising well you follow a i know it's surprising well you follow a story and you just kind of you know the story and you just kind of you know the story and you just kind of you know the the hurdles and the bumps and this and the hurdles and the bumps and this and the hurdles and the bumps and this and that so um that so um that so um i think we'll you know i want to remind i think we'll you know i want to remind i think we'll you know i want to remind folks in microconf on air folks in microconf on air folks in microconf on air if you have questions for tony as we if you have questions for tony as we if you have questions for tony as we move forward please post them in the

move forward please post them in the move forward please post them in the slack but for slack but for slack but for now um i'm gonna just start diving into now um i'm gonna just start diving into now um i'm gonna just start diving into some questions that we talked about in some questions that we talked about in some questions that we talked about in advance advance advance so i'm curious to hear what's been the so i'm curious to hear what's been the so i'm curious to hear what's been the hardest part one of the hardest parts of hardest part one of the hardest parts of hardest part one of the hardest parts of building cloud forecast for you building cloud forecast for you building cloud forecast for you i would say you know you you read about i would say you know you you read about i would say you know you you read about bare metrics and he he writes about the bare metrics and he he writes about the bare metrics and he he writes about the slow ramp of death slow ramp of death slow ramp of death and i think for us you know that's and i think for us you know that's and i think for us you know that's that's the hardest part that's the hardest part that's the hardest part um especially launching from scratch um um especially launching from scratch um um especially launching from scratch um getting data getting data getting data uh from just chatting with people um uh from just chatting with people um uh from just chatting with people um on your product and figuring out what to on your product and figuring out what to on your product and figuring out what to build build build and especially if you're launching from and especially if you're launching from and especially if you're launching from scratch view you have an idea scratch view you have an idea scratch view you have an idea of your product and what you want to of your product and what you want to of your product and what you want to build build build but as you're chatting with people you but as you're chatting with people you but as you're chatting with people you have to kind of adjust that have to kind of adjust that have to kind of adjust that thinking a little bit so that's been thinking a little bit so that's been thinking a little bit so that's been really hard right um really hard right um really hard right um you know we had revenue goes but you you know we had revenue goes but you you know we had revenue goes but you know that that went out the door know that that went out the door know that that went out the door after a few months um i would say that's after a few months um i would say that's after a few months um i would say that's been the hardest part it's just like been the hardest part it's just like been the hardest part it's just like sticking with it um being consistent sticking with it um being consistent sticking with it um being consistent always chatting with people and just always chatting with people and just always chatting with people and just gathering that data on what we need to gathering that data on what we need to gathering that data on what we need to build to bring value to people in build to bring value to people in build to bring value to people in the amazon web service so that's been the amazon web service so that's been the amazon web service so that's been really hard for us really hard for us really hard for us yeah yeah it sometimes it takes a lot yeah yeah it sometimes it takes a lot yeah yeah it sometimes it takes a lot longer than the the longer than the the longer than the the stories that we see even the ones not on stories that we see even the ones not on stories that we see even the ones not on techcrunch right i mean if you look at techcrunch right i mean if you look at techcrunch right i mean if you look at the barometric story like josh went from the barometric story like josh went from the barometric story like josh went from uh they went from zero to 30 kmrr in uh they went from zero to 30 kmrr in uh they went from zero to 30 kmrr in not very much time and i remember not very much time and i remember not very much time and i remember watching that because he was you know it watching that because he was you know it watching that because he was you know it was public was public was public and thinking oh man this is really and thinking oh man this is really and thinking oh man this is really happening and if you think that's the

happening and if you think that's the happening and if you think that's the norm you're going to be really really norm you're going to be really really norm you're going to be really really disappointed because josh caught disappointed because josh caught disappointed because josh caught lightning in a bottle you know and if it lightning in a bottle you know and if it lightning in a bottle you know and if it takes you takes you takes you it might take you two years to get there it might take you two years to get there it might take you two years to get there where it took him four months or where it took him four months or where it took him four months or whatever and whatever and whatever and right and i think a lot of things we right and i think a lot of things we right and i think a lot of things we read kind of perpetuates the idea that read kind of perpetuates the idea that read kind of perpetuates the idea that hey this is an overnight success story hey this is an overnight success story hey this is an overnight success story but there is just so much but there is just so much but there is just so much grit hustle learning i don't like saying grit hustle learning i don't like saying grit hustle learning i don't like saying failure more so setback right that failure more so setback right that failure more so setback right that discourages you and you're like why am i discourages you and you're like why am i discourages you and you're like why am i not getting the success that i'm reading not getting the success that i'm reading not getting the success that i'm reading about about about but you know it's relative right at the but you know it's relative right at the but you know it's relative right at the end of the day end of the day end of the day um so i think that's been hard but we're um so i think that's been hard but we're um so i think that's been hard but we're making good progress on our side making good progress on our side making good progress on our side um the data that we're getting from our um the data that we're getting from our um the data that we're getting from our customers and the conversations are customers and the conversations are customers and the conversations are becoming a tighter story in some ways becoming a tighter story in some ways becoming a tighter story in some ways instead of instead of instead of making guesses we're making better making guesses we're making better making guesses we're making better guesses than what we're doing before guesses than what we're doing before guesses than what we're doing before so i think that's a encouraging part of so i think that's a encouraging part of so i think that's a encouraging part of where we're at last year when we did it where we're at last year when we did it where we're at last year when we did it for full time for full time for full time for one year total to what we have now for one year total to what we have now for one year total to what we have now so that's been good for us so that's been good for us so that's been good for us yeah yeah that's good oh and i also yeah yeah that's good oh and i also yeah yeah that's good oh and i also meant to set this kind of set the stage meant to set this kind of set the stage meant to set this kind of set the stage of the stage you're at of the stage you're at of the stage you're at uh before we started talking but i'll do uh before we started talking but i'll do uh before we started talking but i'll do it now so you know you mentioned to me it now so you know you mentioned to me it now so you know you mentioned to me that in essence you are two co-founders that in essence you are two co-founders that in essence you are two co-founders taking salaries and your default alive taking salaries and your default alive taking salaries and your default alive so that gives people somewhat of an idea so that gives people somewhat of an idea so that gives people somewhat of an idea you're definitely po you know definitely you're definitely po you know definitely you're definitely po you know definitely post revenue post revenue post revenue um but you know you don't have any um but you know you don't have any um but you know you don't have any employees or anything are there any employees or anything are there any employees or anything are there any other other other um any other failures you want to talk um any other failures you want to talk um any other failures you want to talk about or or mention about or or mention about or or mention um i wouldn't call them failures maybe um i wouldn't call them failures maybe um i wouldn't call them failures maybe set max set max set max speed yeah yeah i i think early

speed yeah yeah i i think early speed yeah yeah i i think early on in my career right that's when i on in my career right that's when i on in my career right that's when i started changing that because failure is started changing that because failure is started changing that because failure is such a finality too in some ways like such a finality too in some ways like such a finality too in some ways like you failed and that's it and i think you failed and that's it and i think you failed and that's it and i think that's what culture perpetuates like you that's what culture perpetuates like you that's what culture perpetuates like you failed that's it failed that's it failed that's it um i think our greatest setback in um i think our greatest setback in um i think our greatest setback in different ways is just different ways is just different ways is just um you know we pro we apply to a lot of um you know we pro we apply to a lot of um you know we pro we apply to a lot of accelerators on our side accelerators on our side accelerators on our side and i think for us getting rejected is and i think for us getting rejected is and i think for us getting rejected is really difficult um in some ways really difficult um in some ways really difficult um in some ways because i think at that time because i think at that time because i think at that time when you're rejected it's a sinking when you're rejected it's a sinking when you're rejected it's a sinking feeling that you have you're like oh did feeling that you have you're like oh did feeling that you have you're like oh did i fail as a founder is my product not i fail as a founder is my product not i fail as a founder is my product not good enough good enough good enough but i think one thing that francois had but i think one thing that francois had but i think one thing that francois had done really well is like we take a step done really well is like we take a step done really well is like we take a step back back back we take a look a bigger picture it's not we take a look a bigger picture it's not we take a look a bigger picture it's not indicative indicative indicative of who we're as founders or our product of who we're as founders or our product of who we're as founders or our product but it's an opportunity for us to learn but it's an opportunity for us to learn but it's an opportunity for us to learn an opportunity for us to like okay these an opportunity for us to like okay these an opportunity for us to like okay these are the things that didn't like about us are the things that didn't like about us are the things that didn't like about us you know they know what they're doing you know they know what they're doing you know they know what they're doing right um they're smart startup people right um they're smart startup people right um they're smart startup people how can we apply that and grow our how can we apply that and grow our how can we apply that and grow our business a little bit further business a little bit further business a little bit further so i think that's the biggest one that so i think that's the biggest one that so i think that's the biggest one that we've faced you know every time we we've faced you know every time we we've faced you know every time we applied to accelerator got rejected applied to accelerator got rejected applied to accelerator got rejected sinking feeling sinking feeling sinking feeling took a step back learn from it and then took a step back learn from it and then took a step back learn from it and then we just grew from that those we just grew from that those we just grew from that those opportunities right and just try to opportunities right and just try to opportunities right and just try to take advantage of those advice that we take advantage of those advice that we take advantage of those advice that we get from um those those accelerators get from um those those accelerators get from um those those accelerators yeah sorry because you applied the yeah sorry because you applied the yeah sorry because you applied the chinese seed and we chinese seed and we chinese seed and we we you know it just it happens you get we you know it just it happens you get we you know it just it happens you get 900 applicants and yeah 900 applicants and yeah 900 applicants and yeah i've liked what you guys are doing i i've liked what you guys are doing i i've liked what you guys are doing i like your team and it just said you know like your team and it just said you know like your team and it just said you know a certain point a certain point a certain point at the end of the day it's like i i

at the end of the day it's like i i at the end of the day it's like i i always talk to francois about this always talk to francois about this always talk to francois about this there's just so many things you just there's just so many things you just there's just so many things you just can't control can't control can't control yeah you know like extracurricular stuff yeah you know like extracurricular stuff yeah you know like extracurricular stuff and it's very and it's very and it's very i think if you dwell on it you become i think if you dwell on it you become i think if you dwell on it you become consumed about it right consumed about it right consumed about it right but if we dwell on things that we can but if we dwell on things that we can but if we dwell on things that we can control i think you know you can build a control i think you know you can build a control i think you know you can build a better business out of that better business out of that better business out of that and put more effort to it and less and put more effort to it and less and put more effort to it and less spring power to spring power to spring power to kind of dealing with those issues kind of dealing with those issues kind of dealing with those issues absolutely that's a skill i didn't learn absolutely that's a skill i didn't learn absolutely that's a skill i didn't learn until until until way too late in my life i was probably way too late in my life i was probably way too late in my life i was probably in my 30s before i learned to like let in my 30s before i learned to like let in my 30s before i learned to like let things go things go things go and realize hey let's focus on the and realize hey let's focus on the and realize hey let's focus on the things i am in control of you know things i am in control of you know things i am in control of you know yeah yeah our next our next question is yeah yeah our next our next question is yeah yeah our next our next question is from justin jackson he says how do from justin jackson he says how do from justin jackson he says how do people currently people currently people currently find cloud forecast what's going on in find cloud forecast what's going on in find cloud forecast what's going on in their life their life their life that brings them to you and before you that brings them to you and before you that brings them to you and before you answer that it's cloudforecast.io answer that it's cloudforecast.io answer that it's cloudforecast.io if you want to check out the website but if you want to check out the website but if you want to check out the website but go ahead and hit us up tony yeah go ahead and hit us up tony yeah go ahead and hit us up tony yeah absolutely so we work with a lot of um absolutely so we work with a lot of um absolutely so we work with a lot of um startups and mid-market size companies startups and mid-market size companies startups and mid-market size companies that might have a huge that might have a huge that might have a huge engineering team and they're high growth engineering team and they're high growth engineering team and they're high growth right so right so right so their aws bill is growing month over their aws bill is growing month over their aws bill is growing month over month over month month over month month over month and their engineering team might be 20 and their engineering team might be 20 and their engineering team might be 20 30 40 people 30 40 people 30 40 people deep and a lot of them are deploying deep and a lot of them are deploying deep and a lot of them are deploying things on amazon web services so but things on amazon web services so but things on amazon web services so but with so many moving parts what often with so many moving parts what often with so many moving parts what often can happen is you might deploy a c2 can happen is you might deploy a c2 can happen is you might deploy a c2 instance or instance or instance or or a product that someone might not be or a product that someone might not be or a product that someone might not be aware of aware of aware of and it just becomes a recurring cost and and it just becomes a recurring cost and and it just becomes a recurring cost and you might not catch it in a month you might not catch it in a month you might not catch it in a month and then when the month bill comes and then when the month bill comes and then when the month bill comes you're like whoa why am i getting the you're like whoa why am i getting the you're like whoa why am i getting the surprise here

surprise here surprise here you know what is this right and it's you know what is this right and it's you know what is this right and it's already already already 15 days too late right and you can go to 15 days too late right and you can go to 15 days too late right and you can go to aws and be like hey can i get a credit aws and be like hey can i get a credit aws and be like hey can i get a credit um um um but that's that's a problem right um but that's that's a problem right um but that's that's a problem right um because because because managing your costs is not going to make managing your costs is not going to make managing your costs is not going to make your product better at the end of the your product better at the end of the your product better at the end of the day day day right it's not going to make your right it's not going to make your right it's not going to make your features better so what we do when we features better so what we do when we features better so what we do when we come in and the pain point that we help come in and the pain point that we help come in and the pain point that we help is just is just is just providing quick visibility to engineers providing quick visibility to engineers providing quick visibility to engineers like engineers don't like like engineers don't like like engineers don't like going into dashboards they don't want to going into dashboards they don't want to going into dashboards they don't want to do another tool just provide a simple do another tool just provide a simple do another tool just provide a simple email email email on a daily basis that gives them rapport on a daily basis that gives them rapport on a daily basis that gives them rapport and say hey here are the anomalies here and say hey here are the anomalies here and say hey here are the anomalies here are the deltas are the deltas are the deltas here are things that you should care here are things that you should care here are things that you should care about here are things you shouldn't care about here are things you shouldn't care about here are things you shouldn't care about archive about archive about archive on your day so you can focus on on your day so you can focus on on your day so you can focus on technical priorities technical priorities technical priorities yeah and that's an interest it's an yeah and that's an interest it's an yeah and that's an interest it's an interesting problem you're solving interesting problem you're solving interesting problem you're solving because because because before i experienced it and i don't before i experienced it and i don't before i experienced it and i don't remember if it was hit tail or drip but remember if it was hit tail or drip but remember if it was hit tail or drip but at some point we left a server going at some point we left a server going at some point we left a server going you know it's a typical thing and you know it's a typical thing and you know it's a typical thing and suddenly we spent thousand bucks in a suddenly we spent thousand bucks in a suddenly we spent thousand bucks in a month where our hosting should have been month where our hosting should have been month where our hosting should have been 200 or something and before i 200 or something and before i 200 or something and before i experienced it i didn't even think it experienced it i didn't even think it experienced it i didn't even think it would be an issue so i wouldn't have would be an issue so i wouldn't have would be an issue so i wouldn't have sought you out but the moment it sought you out but the moment it sought you out but the moment it happened i was like happened i was like happened i was like how did we not figure this out is there how did we not figure this out is there how did we not figure this out is there a solution and of course at the time we a solution and of course at the time we a solution and of course at the time we you know let's say it was 20 but you know let's say it was 20 but you know let's say it was 20 but somewhere between 2013 2015 somewhere between 2013 2015 somewhere between 2013 2015 i don't remember there being solutions i i don't remember there being solutions i i don't remember there being solutions i like googled like aws like googled like aws like googled like aws you know tracking or whatever and there you know tracking or whatever and there you know tracking or whatever and there wasn't anything there so it's almost wasn't anything there so it's almost wasn't anything there so it's almost like like like i imagine it's potentially an uphill i imagine it's potentially an uphill i imagine it's potentially an uphill battle for you to find people who have battle for you to find people who have battle for you to find people who have already experienced that pain because already experienced that pain because already experienced that pain because other other other it's either it's an aspirin only if it's either it's an aspirin only if it's either it's an aspirin only if you've experienced the pain once yeah you've experienced the pain once yeah you've experienced the pain once yeah versus the vitamin before that and we we versus the vitamin before that and we we versus the vitamin before that and we we try to be relevant with our code try to be relevant with our code try to be relevant with our code outreaches you know that's one way that

outreaches you know that's one way that outreaches you know that's one way that we're finding people we're finding people we're finding people like their bill arrives beginning a like their bill arrives beginning a like their bill arrives beginning a month so we month so we month so we do a lot of code outreach in the do a lot of code outreach in the do a lot of code outreach in the beginning month with beginning month with beginning month with hey here's your did you get your aws hey here's your did you get your aws hey here's your did you get your aws invoices were there any surprises invoices were there any surprises invoices were there any surprises right and yeah um and that's why we're right and yeah um and that's why we're right and yeah um and that's why we're pretty realistic about pretty realistic about pretty realistic about kind of where we're at with a bootstrap kind of where we're at with a bootstrap kind of where we're at with a bootstrap startup right um startup right um startup right um other players in the uh space are other players in the uh space are other players in the uh space are focused on enterprise focused on enterprise focused on enterprise right and they're focused on bigger right and they're focused on bigger right and they're focused on bigger businesses and whatnot businesses and whatnot businesses and whatnot uh whereas we're focused on mid-market uh whereas we're focused on mid-market uh whereas we're focused on mid-market and uh and uh and uh adabus provides really great reporting adabus provides really great reporting adabus provides really great reporting tool but we're tool but we're tool but we're a in a big market right a in a big market right a in a big market right so that gives us a lot of opportunity so that gives us a lot of opportunity so that gives us a lot of opportunity and we're a nice and we're a nice and we're a nice um add-on tool to uh cost explorer in um add-on tool to uh cost explorer in um add-on tool to uh cost explorer in different ways different ways different ways yep that makes sense another couple yep that makes sense another couple yep that makes sense another couple questions from justin jackson and i'll questions from justin jackson and i'll questions from justin jackson and i'll split them up into two but the first one split them up into two but the first one split them up into two but the first one he asks is what marketing channels are he asks is what marketing channels are he asks is what marketing channels are working for you right now working for you right now working for you right now yeah um marketing to engineers is always yeah um marketing to engineers is always yeah um marketing to engineers is always tough tough tough um they're very skeptical they're um they're very skeptical they're um they're very skeptical they're they're they're highly skeptical they're they're highly skeptical they're they're highly skeptical so i would say content is working really so i would say content is working really so i would say content is working really well for us well for us well for us right and bringing free value to them right and bringing free value to them right and bringing free value to them and building an audience that way uh we and building an audience that way uh we and building an audience that way uh we have a few really strong blog posts that have a few really strong blog posts that have a few really strong blog posts that are very are very are very technical um related to amazon web technical um related to amazon web technical um related to amazon web services so that's been really helpful services so that's been really helpful services so that's been really helpful for us to for us to for us to drive more traffic and drive um just drive more traffic and drive um just drive more traffic and drive um just organic organic organic search through our website another search through our website another search through our website another channel that we've been testing that channel that we've been testing that channel that we've been testing that we're starting to see successes actually we're starting to see successes actually we're starting to see successes actually code outreach you know a lot of people

code outreach you know a lot of people code outreach you know a lot of people say say say code outreach doesn't work that's 10 code outreach doesn't work that's 10 code outreach doesn't work that's 10 years ago but years ago but years ago but surprisingly like for us if we get a few surprisingly like for us if we get a few surprisingly like for us if we get a few that are larger that are larger that are larger yeah it still works that are larger and yeah it still works that are larger and yeah it still works that are larger and it makes sense it makes sense it makes sense um and that's the way that we've been um and that's the way that we've been um and that's the way that we've been able to acquire a lot of our larger able to acquire a lot of our larger able to acquire a lot of our larger customers as well customers as well customers as well you just got to do it in a very solid you just got to do it in a very solid you just got to do it in a very solid way way way that's not too invasive right and you that's not too invasive right and you that's not too invasive right and you got to be respectful as well so i think got to be respectful as well so i think got to be respectful as well so i think those are the rules that we follow those are the rules that we follow those are the rules that we follow within our space that we we do for cold within our space that we we do for cold within our space that we we do for cold outreach outreach outreach very nice and his follow-up is are there very nice and his follow-up is are there very nice and his follow-up is are there any marketing channels that you've any marketing channels that you've any marketing channels that you've you haven't tried that you'd like to try you haven't tried that you'd like to try you haven't tried that you'd like to try yeah i think the part that yeah i think the part that yeah i think the part that you know francei and i were just talking you know francei and i were just talking you know francei and i were just talking about yesterday is building more assets about yesterday is building more assets about yesterday is building more assets of value of value of value to engineers to engineers to engineers um highly technical assets whether it's um highly technical assets whether it's um highly technical assets whether it's an ebook an ebook an ebook or maybe a playbook or a playbook of or maybe a playbook or a playbook of or maybe a playbook or a playbook of scripts scripts scripts of like here are some scripts that you of like here are some scripts that you of like here are some scripts that you can run to help you scan through all can run to help you scan through all can run to help you scan through all your ec2 instances that are over your ec2 instances that are over your ec2 instances that are over provision provision provision like stuff like that so i think that's like stuff like that so i think that's like stuff like that so i think that's the the the next move that we are going to invest a next move that we are going to invest a next move that we are going to invest a little bit more in little bit more in little bit more in is just valuable assets for engineers is just valuable assets for engineers is just valuable assets for engineers and continue to build the audience that and continue to build the audience that and continue to build the audience that way and continue to way and continue to way and continue to build more of a domain knowledge into build more of a domain knowledge into build more of a domain knowledge into space through that space through that space through that yeah very cool so last question before yeah very cool so last question before yeah very cool so last question before we wrap up we wrap up we wrap up um what has been your what do you think um what has been your what do you think um what has been your what do you think has been your biggest victory to date has been your biggest victory to date has been your biggest victory to date in building cloud forecast yeah i think in building cloud forecast yeah i think in building cloud forecast yeah i think for us our greatest victory is just

for us our greatest victory is just for us our greatest victory is just having difficult having difficult having difficult co-founder conversations that can often co-founder conversations that can often co-founder conversations that can often shut down a company shut down a company shut down a company whether it's hey when should we go full whether it's hey when should we go full whether it's hey when should we go full time what should we pay ourselves time what should we pay ourselves time what should we pay ourselves uh what is our equity structure looking uh what is our equity structure looking uh what is our equity structure looking like like like and that's always really tough right and that's always really tough right and that's always really tough right because you know because you know because you know when you read about just the startup when you read about just the startup when you read about just the startup landscape in general landscape in general landscape in general that's when the moment where there's a that's when the moment where there's a that's when the moment where there's a lot of disagreements and failures can lot of disagreements and failures can lot of disagreements and failures can often happen within startups but i think often happen within startups but i think often happen within startups but i think francoinai we've always taken a bigger francoinai we've always taken a bigger francoinai we've always taken a bigger picture picture picture of how we approach those tough founder of how we approach those tough founder of how we approach those tough founder conversations conversations conversations one we um we look out for one we um we look out for one we um we look out for each other's best interests so that's each other's best interests so that's each other's best interests so that's really helpful for us right really helpful for us right really helpful for us right so like we we always look out for each so like we we always look out for each so like we we always look out for each other what's the best of company as well other what's the best of company as well other what's the best of company as well but the bigger picture is like we but the bigger picture is like we but the bigger picture is like we also look at it as like as a privilege also look at it as like as a privilege also look at it as like as a privilege for us to work for us to work for us to work on this full-time as well right um on this full-time as well right um on this full-time as well right um my family and my dad came here from my family and my dad came here from my family and my dad came here from china as an immigrant china as an immigrant china as an immigrant and there's really no reason why i can't and there's really no reason why i can't and there's really no reason why i can't be successful when he was able to be successful when he was able to be successful when he was able to come here with no english background and come here with no english background and come here with no english background and be successful here so like i always try be successful here so like i always try be successful here so like i always try to take it one step back and look at to take it one step back and look at to take it one step back and look at bigger picture thing it's a privilege bigger picture thing it's a privilege bigger picture thing it's a privilege for us for us for us to work on this and francois in to work on this and francois in to work on this and francois in different ways as well so different ways as well so different ways as well so that's been i in my opinion if i had to that's been i in my opinion if i had to that's been i in my opinion if i had to take a step back take a step back take a step back the the ability to just go through those the the ability to just go through those the the ability to just go through those conversations without conversations without conversations without jeopardizing a relationship has been the jeopardizing a relationship has been the jeopardizing a relationship has been the greatest success story and i really hope greatest success story and i really hope greatest success story and i really hope that will continue on as we continue to

that will continue on as we continue to that will continue on as we continue to build cloud forecasts build cloud forecasts build cloud forecasts bravo yeah bravo to that because bravo yeah bravo to that because bravo yeah bravo to that because co-founder disputes and co-founder disputes and co-founder disputes and and co-founder split ups are some of the and co-founder split ups are some of the and co-founder split ups are some of the biggest reasons you know some of the biggest reasons you know some of the biggest reasons you know some of the most frequent reasons that most frequent reasons that most frequent reasons that startups fail so thanks for all your startups fail so thanks for all your startups fail so thanks for all your wisdom today man i really appreciate it wisdom today man i really appreciate it wisdom today man i really appreciate it and uh you're you're quite active in in and uh you're you're quite active in in and uh you're you're quite active in in connect and i know folks have seen you connect and i know folks have seen you connect and i know folks have seen you around so i think it's cool if they you around so i think it's cool if they you around so i think it's cool if they you know get to see your face and and hear know get to see your face and and hear know get to see your face and and hear what you're up to what you're up to what you're up to um if they want to follow i know you um if they want to follow i know you um if they want to follow i know you guys are at cloud forecast on twitter guys are at cloud forecast on twitter guys are at cloud forecast on twitter and obviously if they're if there's and obviously if they're if there's and obviously if they're if there's someone listening to this it's like hey someone listening to this it's like hey someone listening to this it's like hey i do have aws i do have aws i do have aws uh potential you know to be overcharged uh potential you know to be overcharged uh potential you know to be overcharged here to let stuff go um here to let stuff go um here to let stuff go um cloudforecast.io thank you thank you so cloudforecast.io thank you thank you so cloudforecast.io thank you thank you so much for the opportunity rob much for the opportunity rob much for the opportunity rob absolutely it was a pleasure so yeah to absolutely it was a pleasure so yeah to absolutely it was a pleasure so yeah to in wrapping up in wrapping up in wrapping up a couple housekeeping items um i don't a couple housekeeping items um i don't a couple housekeeping items um i don't know that i mentioned know that i mentioned know that i mentioned zenhammer's uh information it's at it's zenhammer's uh information it's at it's zenhammer's uh information it's at it's get get get zenhammer on twitter and it's zenhammer on twitter and it's zenhammer on twitter and it's getzenhammer.com that was edwin's url getzenhammer.com that was edwin's url getzenhammer.com that was edwin's url and obviously cloudforecast.io and obviously cloudforecast.io and obviously cloudforecast.io is tony who we were just speaking with is tony who we were just speaking with is tony who we were just speaking with two how our three housekeeping items two how our three housekeeping items two how our three housekeeping items before we wrap up before we wrap up before we wrap up the first is the microconf on air the first is the microconf on air the first is the microconf on air podcast is airing podcast is airing podcast is airing uh this live stream every thursday uh this live stream every thursday uh this live stream every thursday morning and then every tuesday morning morning and then every tuesday morning morning and then every tuesday morning we are airing we are airing we are airing microconf talks and we started with the microconf talks and we started with the microconf talks and we started with the top five of all time i do a little intro top five of all time i do a little intro top five of all time i do a little intro and outro to give it a and outro to give it a and outro to give it a you know a little bit of context but you know a little bit of context but you know a little bit of context but it's the audio from these really it's the audio from these really it's the audio from these really to be honest amazing talks i mean it's to be honest amazing talks i mean it's to be honest amazing talks i mean it's five best out of 200 something talks five best out of 200 something talks five best out of 200 something talks that we have that we have that we have and we're just going to continue with and we're just going to continue with and we're just going to continue with that i don't remember what the next that i don't remember what the next that i don't remember what the next playlist is we're doing but playlist is we're doing but playlist is we're doing but producers andrew and i are putting these producers andrew and i are putting these producers andrew and i are putting these out every tuesday morning so microconf out every tuesday morning so microconf out every tuesday morning so microconf on air search for that in any podcatcher on air search for that in any podcatcher on air search for that in any podcatcher um or you can listen on the web at

um or you can listen on the web at um or you can listen on the web at microcomppodcast.com microcomppodcast.com microcomppodcast.com as always you know we are on youtube as always you know we are on youtube as always you know we are on youtube youtube.com microcomp you should youtube.com microcomp you should youtube.com microcomp you should head over there and subscribe if you head over there and subscribe if you head over there and subscribe if you haven't already so you can be notified haven't already so you can be notified haven't already so you can be notified about these videos as well as about these videos as well as about these videos as well as all the other stuff we're putting out all the other stuff we're putting out all the other stuff we're putting out there and finally thank you to basecamp there and finally thank you to basecamp there and finally thank you to basecamp and stripe they're our headline partners and stripe they're our headline partners and stripe they're our headline partners for the year for the year for the year and we really appreciate their and we really appreciate their and we really appreciate their involvement and we we just think the involvement and we we just think the involvement and we we just think the world of world of world of of these companies and how they do of these companies and how they do of these companies and how they do business and feel like they fit the business and feel like they fit the business and feel like they fit the microphone microphone microphone ethos really really well so um next ethos really really well so um next ethos really really well so um next wednesday wednesday wednesday we will be live streaming once again we will be live streaming once again we will be live streaming once again we'll be doing more microconf on air at we'll be doing more microconf on air at we'll be doing more microconf on air at same time same time same time same place it's microconf onair.com same place it's microconf onair.com same place it's microconf onair.com wednesday at 1pm eastern thank you so wednesday at 1pm eastern thank you so wednesday at 1pm eastern thank you so much for joining us much for joining us much for joining us see you next week see you next week see you next week [Music] [Music] [Music] you