The Insights of Second Time Founders

Welcome to today's episode of Microcump Welcome to today's episode of Microcump on Air. I'm your host Rob Walling and it on Air. I'm your host Rob Walling and it on Air. I'm your host Rob Walling and it has been a minute. Ron and I were just has been a minute. Ron and I were just has been a minute. Ron and I were just producer Ron and I were just talking. producer Ron and I were just talking. producer Ron and I were just talking. It's been a month or two since we've It's been a month or two since we've It's been a month or two since we've done an on air and that has been due done an on air and that has been due done an on air and that has been due mostly to travel schedules. But when mostly to travel schedules. But when mostly to travel schedules. But when we're not constantly on the road, every we're not constantly on the road, every we're not constantly on the road, every other Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 other Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 other Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, we live stream for about a.m. Pacific, we live stream for about a.m. Pacific, we live stream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related 30 minutes and we cover topics related 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS startups. These are companies that bring startups. These are companies that bring startups. These are companies that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to us freedom and purpose and allow us to us freedom and purpose and allow us to maintain healthy relationships. It's maintain healthy relationships. It's maintain healthy relationships. It's going to be a great time today. We're going to be a great time today. We're going to be a great time today. We're talking about the insights of secondtime talking about the insights of secondtime talking about the insights of secondtime founders. I'll bring my guest on in just founders. I'll bring my guest on in just founders. I'll bring my guest on in just a second. As a reminder, you should and a second. As a reminder, you should and a second. As a reminder, you should and can ask questions of myself and our can ask questions of myself and our can ask questions of myself and our guest today. That's why we do live guest today. That's why we do live guest today. That's why we do live stream. Otherwise, we would just go stream. Otherwise, we would just go stream. Otherwise, we would just go record a podcast and it would, you know, record a podcast and it would, you know, record a podcast and it would, you know, be edited and all fancy and such. The be edited and all fancy and such. The be edited and all fancy and such. The whole point is to be live here in front whole point is to be live here in front whole point is to be live here in front of you such that in the YouTube uh chat of you such that in the YouTube uh chat of you such that in the YouTube uh chat or in microcom connect which is our or in microcom connect which is our or in microcom connect which is our preferred method microcom connect there preferred method microcom connect there preferred method microcom connect there is a um micromp onair channel it's been is a um micromp onair channel it's been is a um micromp onair channel it's been a while so I'm going for memory here a while so I'm going for memory here a while so I'm going for memory here micromp on air channel and you can pipe micromp on air channel and you can pipe micromp on air channel and you can pipe questions into there and producer Ron is questions into there and producer Ron is questions into there and producer Ron is monitoring those. So insights of second monitoring those. So insights of second monitoring those. So insights of second time founders is going to revolve around time founders is going to revolve around time founders is going to revolve around finding product market fit and it's finding product market fit and it's finding product market fit and it's going to be around things that second or going to be around things that second or going to be around things that second or third or fourth time founders do better third or fourth time founders do better third or fourth time founders do better or know more. You know, this ties a lot, or know more. You know, this ties a lot, or know more. You know, this ties a lot, no more than when they were a first- no more than when they were a first- no more than when they were a first- time founder. This ties a lot into time founder. This ties a lot into time founder. This ties a lot into stairstepping where I talk about your stairstepping where I talk about your stairstepping where I talk about your first step is to build something first step is to build something first step is to build something relatively simple, perhaps relatively relatively simple, perhaps relatively relatively simple, perhaps relatively small, perhaps a single traffic channel, small, perhaps a single traffic channel, small, perhaps a single traffic channel, pretty pretty easy to find product pretty pretty easy to find product pretty pretty easy to find product market fit. Don't get too clever or too market fit. Don't get too clever or too market fit. Don't get too clever or too novel, and figure out a way to do that

novel, and figure out a way to do that novel, and figure out a way to do that until you buy out your time and then you until you buy out your time and then you until you buy out your time and then you can move up the chain as you gain this can move up the chain as you gain this can move up the chain as you gain this experience and the skill set and the experience and the skill set and the experience and the skill set and the confidence and frankly, you know, some confidence and frankly, you know, some confidence and frankly, you know, some some money to be able to to do harder some money to be able to to do harder some money to be able to to do harder and harder things. So, it's going to be and harder things. So, it's going to be and harder things. So, it's going to be a great conversation today with Jen Ael, a great conversation today with Jen Ael, a great conversation today with Jen Ael, who is my guest I'll bring on in just a who is my guest I'll bring on in just a who is my guest I'll bring on in just a second. Jen is a B2B entrepreneur. She second. Jen is a B2B entrepreneur. She second. Jen is a B2B entrepreneur. She she's founded Jellyfish and that's with she's founded Jellyfish and that's with she's founded Jellyfish and that's with two J's. So, it's Jellyfish. Jellyfish two J's. So, it's Jellyfish. Jellyfish two J's. So, it's Jellyfish. Jellyfish and uh she's demonstrated a passion for and uh she's demonstrated a passion for and uh she's demonstrated a passion for the 0ero to one stage in the US market. the 0ero to one stage in the US market. the 0ero to one stage in the US market. 0ero to one being getting up started to 0ero to one being getting up started to 0ero to one being getting up started to product market fit. Jellyfish has product market fit. Jellyfish has product market fit. Jellyfish has supported more than 200 startups and supported more than 200 startups and supported more than 200 startups and helped them validate their commercial helped them validate their commercial helped them validate their commercial models, acquire initial US revenue, and models, acquire initial US revenue, and models, acquire initial US revenue, and define a repeatable go to market define a repeatable go to market define a repeatable go to market strategy along with Fortune 500 strategy along with Fortune 500 strategy along with Fortune 500 companies seek to companies seeking to companies seek to companies seeking to companies seek to companies seeking to validate new commercial ventures and validate new commercial ventures and validate new commercial ventures and prove traction. Welcome, Jen Ael, to the prove traction. Welcome, Jen Ael, to the prove traction. Welcome, Jen Ael, to the show. How are you, show. How are you, show. How are you, Rob? It's great to be here. Thanks so Rob? It's great to be here. Thanks so Rob? It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. much for having me. much for having me. Absolutely. It's great to have you on. Absolutely. It's great to have you on. Absolutely. It's great to have you on. And um to let folks know if I start to And um to let folks know if I start to And um to let folks know if I start to sweat or my power is out, I have no air sweat or my power is out, I have no air sweat or my power is out, I have no air conditioning. It is hot. The good news conditioning. It is hot. The good news conditioning. It is hot. The good news is um I don't know what the good news is um I don't know what the good news is um I don't know what the good news is, but the good news is the internet's is, but the good news is the internet's is, but the good news is the internet's the UPS has kept my internet up. So the UPS has kept my internet up. So the UPS has kept my internet up. So hopefully, fingers crossed, I have at hopefully, fingers crossed, I have at hopefully, fingers crossed, I have at least another 27 minutes of internet and least another 27 minutes of internet and least another 27 minutes of internet and we'll get through all this. So Oh, you're on mute.

Oh, you're on mute. We did lose Rob. Let's see if he pops We did lose Rob. Let's see if he pops We did lose Rob. Let's see if he pops back on here. back on here. back on here. Problem. Problem. Problem. Let's see. Send him a note. Let's see. Send him a note. Let's see. Send him a note. Tell me that timing wasn't amazing. Tell me that timing wasn't amazing. Tell me that timing wasn't amazing. That was the best. I'm tethered to my That was the best. I'm tethered to my That was the best. I'm tethered to my phone now. So, as long as the phone phone now. So, as long as the phone phone now. So, as long as the phone battery lasts. All right, I'm back. The battery lasts. All right, I'm back. The battery lasts. All right, I'm back. The live stream is still alive. wanted to live stream is still alive. wanted to live stream is still alive. wanted to ask you about pivoting. ask you about pivoting. ask you about pivoting. Pivoting, it's this there's so many Pivoting, it's this there's so many Pivoting, it's this there's so many misconceptions because I think it's like misconceptions because I think it's like misconceptions because I think it's like so few people do it and so many people so few people do it and so many people so few people do it and so many people do it and I think they often don't even do it and I think they often don't even do it and I think they often don't even know really what a pivot is. You want to know really what a pivot is. You want to know really what a pivot is. You want to talk to us about you know across your talk to us about you know across your talk to us about you know across your experience like tell us what the experience like tell us what the experience like tell us what the misconceptions are? Tell us what your misconceptions are? Tell us what your misconceptions are? Tell us what your experience is. experience is. experience is. Yeah. So when you think about first of Yeah. So when you think about first of Yeah. So when you think about first of all I actually if I could uh all I actually if I could uh all I actually if I could uh take one step back from why the take one step back from why the take one step back from why the importance it is of of pivoting. So, you importance it is of of pivoting. So, you importance it is of of pivoting. So, you know, a lot of firsttime founders, know, a lot of firsttime founders, know, a lot of firsttime founders, right, will will build the product and right, will will build the product and right, will will build the product and then go out and try and and and validate then go out and try and and and validate then go out and try and and and validate um the market, right? They have their um the market, right? They have their um the market, right? They have their product built, super excited, now they product built, super excited, now they product built, super excited, now they want to go sell their baby into the want to go sell their baby into the want to go sell their baby into the market. Um while second- time founders market. Um while second- time founders market. Um while second- time founders do the inverse, they actually will go do the inverse, they actually will go do the inverse, they actually will go out and validate the market and out and validate the market and out and validate the market and understand the problem and then build understand the problem and then build understand the problem and then build the product. Right? So when you think the product. Right? So when you think the product. Right? So when you think about a pivot, a pivot for a firsttime about a pivot, a pivot for a firsttime about a pivot, a pivot for a firsttime founder because the product is the founder because the product is the founder because the product is the starting point, they're going to be starting point, they're going to be starting point, they're going to be trying to pivot all across their trying to pivot all across their trying to pivot all across their product, you know, shifting um the product, you know, shifting um the product, you know, shifting um the value, maybe even readjusting their value, maybe even readjusting their value, maybe even readjusting their vision. Like they're they're they're vision. Like they're they're they're vision. Like they're they're they're going to be in this like vicious cycle going to be in this like vicious cycle going to be in this like vicious cycle of trying to build a product and then of trying to build a product and then of trying to build a product and then all of a sudden they start to build this all of a sudden they start to build this all of a sudden they start to build this really interesting thing that has been really interesting thing that has been really interesting thing that has been consensus focused from everyone they

consensus focused from everyone they consensus focused from everyone they speak to. the when you're thinking about speak to. the when you're thinking about speak to. the when you're thinking about your product, you should never take your product, you should never take your product, you should never take advice from the market unless they're a advice from the market unless they're a advice from the market unless they're a paying customer. So, first and foremost, paying customer. So, first and foremost, paying customer. So, first and foremost, so like you'll see a lot of first-time so like you'll see a lot of first-time so like you'll see a lot of first-time founders make that misstep of going out founders make that misstep of going out founders make that misstep of going out and speaking to the market, asking them and speaking to the market, asking them and speaking to the market, asking them what they think about their product, and what they think about their product, and what they think about their product, and then adjusting their product then adjusting their product then adjusting their product accordingly. And all of a sudden, accordingly. And all of a sudden, accordingly. And all of a sudden, there's all of these different there's all of these different there's all of these different iterations from there versus second time iterations from there versus second time iterations from there versus second time founders who first validate the problem, founders who first validate the problem, founders who first validate the problem, right? The market is the expert on the right? The market is the expert on the right? The market is the expert on the problem, the founder is the expert on problem, the founder is the expert on problem, the founder is the expert on the solution. and the vision of that the solution. and the vision of that the solution. and the vision of that solution. So when you go out to the solution. So when you go out to the solution. So when you go out to the market, the market knows their problem market, the market knows their problem market, the market knows their problem better than anyone. So it's great advice better than anyone. So it's great advice better than anyone. So it's great advice to say and validate, hey, help me to say and validate, hey, help me to say and validate, hey, help me understand the types of problems you're understand the types of problems you're understand the types of problems you're facing. How are you trying to prioritize facing. How are you trying to prioritize facing. How are you trying to prioritize this? Now, mind you, you need to go out this? Now, mind you, you need to go out this? Now, mind you, you need to go out with some set of vision. Otherwise, with some set of vision. Otherwise, with some set of vision. Otherwise, you're going to be collecting a lot of you're going to be collecting a lot of you're going to be collecting a lot of uh noise. But when you go out and test uh noise. But when you go out and test uh noise. But when you go out and test the assumptions you have about what the the assumptions you have about what the the assumptions you have about what the market needs, your need is, the best market needs, your need is, the best market needs, your need is, the best thing to do is actually then um use that thing to do is actually then um use that thing to do is actually then um use that to then fuel and build your product. So to then fuel and build your product. So to then fuel and build your product. So now when you're a second time founder, now when you're a second time founder, now when you're a second time founder, you're iterating and pivoting on the you're iterating and pivoting on the you're iterating and pivoting on the market problem, which is way more market problem, which is way more market problem, which is way more sustainable than sitting there and sustainable than sitting there and sustainable than sitting there and trying to re re-engineer a product every trying to re re-engineer a product every trying to re re-engineer a product every time you get a new piece of feedback. So time you get a new piece of feedback. So time you get a new piece of feedback. So um so a pivot is something sometimes um so a pivot is something sometimes um so a pivot is something sometimes different to whom you're speaking to.

different to whom you're speaking to. different to whom you're speaking to. But the grand vision of what a pivot was But the grand vision of what a pivot was But the grand vision of what a pivot was really meant for it was adjusting your really meant for it was adjusting your really meant for it was adjusting your market or adjusting the problem the market or adjusting the problem the market or adjusting the problem the market is facing and then backing your market is facing and then backing your market is facing and then backing your solution into it. It wasn't to go out solution into it. It wasn't to go out solution into it. It wasn't to go out and build a new solution every day. and build a new solution every day. and build a new solution every day. Right. Uh oh, did I mute myself? Yeah. Right. Uh oh, did I mute myself? Yeah. Right. Uh oh, did I mute myself? Yeah. Oh, okay. So I'm I'm having trouble with Oh, okay. So I'm I'm having trouble with Oh, okay. So I'm I'm having trouble with my mics and and settings, but um don't my mics and and settings, but um don't my mics and and settings, but um don't mind that. You know, my second book was mind that. You know, my second book was mind that. You know, my second book was called Start Marketing the Day You Start called Start Marketing the Day You Start called Start Marketing the Day You Start Coding. Coding. Coding. And and what it was it was aimed at And and what it was it was aimed at And and what it was it was aimed at developers and product builders who and developers and product builders who and developers and product builders who and now these days I say start marketing now these days I say start marketing now these days I say start marketing before you start coding, but that was before you start coding, but that was before you start coding, but that was you know how I thought about it then was you know how I thought about it then was you know how I thought about it then was when you start building you should when you start building you should when you start building you should already have right some idea of the already have right some idea of the already have right some idea of the problem, some idea of the solution I'm problem, some idea of the solution I'm problem, some idea of the solution I'm trying to get to. trying to get to. trying to get to. And what's interesting is no one listens And what's interesting is no one listens And what's interesting is no one listens to me. I've been saying this for 15 to me. I've been saying this for 15 to me. I've been saying this for 15 years and it's like it it just people years and it's like it it just people years and it's like it it just people they just don't they don't internalize they just don't they don't internalize they just don't they don't internalize it. They they can hear that from you and it. They they can hear that from you and it. They they can hear that from you and I over and over. But you're right, I over and over. But you're right, I over and over. But you're right, first- time founders haven't gone first- time founders haven't gone first- time founders haven't gone through the pain. through the pain. through the pain. Yeah.

Founders taken the they've taken the gut Founders taken the they've taken the gut punches, right? And so they're more punches, right? And so they're more punches, right? And so they're more likely to validate. likely to validate. likely to validate. And the thing is is it's much easier to And the thing is is it's much easier to And the thing is is it's much easier to build a product. it's um you have way build a product. it's um you have way build a product. it's um you have way more control more control more control versus when you go out to market and versus when you go out to market and versus when you go out to market and someone's like that's not a problem or someone's like that's not a problem or someone's like that's not a problem or like I wouldn't use that. That's hard to like I wouldn't use that. That's hard to like I wouldn't use that. That's hard to hear. hear. hear. Um so yeah, I I totally agree. I mean we Um so yeah, I I totally agree. I mean we Um so yeah, I I totally agree. I mean we all default to where we're comfortable all default to where we're comfortable all default to where we're comfortable and of course if you look at what most and of course if you look at what most and of course if you look at what most founders are, they're product and founders are, they're product and founders are, they're product and engineering centric and technical engineering centric and technical engineering centric and technical centric and the product is their centric and the product is their centric and the product is their expertise. So um that's why I think they expertise. So um that's why I think they expertise. So um that's why I think they spend so much time there and want to spend so much time there and want to spend so much time there and want to default there, default there, default there, right? Because that's where the right? Because that's where the right? Because that's where the certainty is. I am certain I can sit certainty is. I am certain I can sit certainty is. I am certain I can sit down today and I can write 100 lines of down today and I can write 100 lines of down today and I can write 100 lines of code. I can build a feature. I'm scared code. I can build a feature. I'm scared code. I can build a feature. I'm scared because of the uncertainty of I don't because of the uncertainty of I don't because of the uncertainty of I don't know if anybody wants this. I don't know know if anybody wants this. I don't know know if anybody wants this. I don't know if anybody needs this. I don't know if I if anybody needs this. I don't know if I if anybody needs this. I don't know if I can sell this. Right? These are the can sell this. Right? These are the can sell this. Right? These are the scary parts. And so I think that's what scary parts. And so I think that's what scary parts. And so I think that's what we're trying to we're trying to we're trying to So talk about that a little bit then So talk about that a little bit then So talk about that a little bit then product validation before product product validation before product product validation before product development. How would you if you were development. How would you if you were development. How would you if you were starting let's let's say SAS today starting let's let's say SAS today starting let's let's say SAS today because that's really what Microsoft's because that's really what Microsoft's because that's really what Microsoft's focused on. you know, if you were going focused on. you know, if you were going focused on. you know, if you were going to start a SAS today and you had an idea to start a SAS today and you had an idea to start a SAS today and you had an idea in a space, you know, I want to build a in a space, you know, I want to build a in a space, you know, I want to build a CRM and ESP or whatever, like how would CRM and ESP or whatever, like how would CRM and ESP or whatever, like how would you think about and go about validation you think about and go about validation you think about and go about validation before development?

before development? before development? Yep. So when you go out to validate, it Yep. So when you go out to validate, it Yep. So when you go out to validate, it is really really critical. I think is really really critical. I think is really really critical. I think people misconstrue what customer people misconstrue what customer people misconstrue what customer discovery and validation is. They think discovery and validation is. They think discovery and validation is. They think it is. Let me just give you the it is. Let me just give you the it is. Let me just give you the misconception. The misconception is go misconception. The misconception is go misconception. The misconception is go out, talk to the market, listen to them, out, talk to the market, listen to them, out, talk to the market, listen to them, and report back what you hear. Okay, and report back what you hear. Okay, and report back what you hear. Okay, that's half right. You need to go out to that's half right. You need to go out to that's half right. You need to go out to the market with a set of structured the market with a set of structured the market with a set of structured assumptions and let them help you assumptions and let them help you assumptions and let them help you identify what is most true about your identify what is most true about your identify what is most true about your assumptions and what is most false about assumptions and what is most false about assumptions and what is most false about your assumptions. If you go out to the your assumptions. If you go out to the your assumptions. If you go out to the market and ask them what they want, market and ask them what they want, market and ask them what they want, you're going to bring back a ton of you're going to bring back a ton of you're going to bring back a ton of noise. So, you need to keep it somewhat noise. So, you need to keep it somewhat noise. So, you need to keep it somewhat constrained in focus like you like you constrained in focus like you like you constrained in focus like you like you mentioned earlier um about doing one mentioned earlier um about doing one mentioned earlier um about doing one thing and doing it well. you know, pick thing and doing it well. you know, pick thing and doing it well. you know, pick three or four things you believe the three or four things you believe the three or four things you believe the market is facing and let them then tell market is facing and let them then tell market is facing and let them then tell you which one of those four is most true you which one of those four is most true you which one of those four is most true and maybe which one is most un or and maybe which one is most un or and maybe which one is most un or falsified. Um, do not just go out to the falsified. Um, do not just go out to the falsified. Um, do not just go out to the market having open-ended questions market having open-ended questions market having open-ended questions expecting them to give you vision. You expecting them to give you vision. You expecting them to give you vision. You need to set the vision. Um so you know need to set the vision. Um so you know need to set the vision. Um so you know when when we talk about uh problem when when we talk about uh problem when when we talk about uh problem validation or customer development validation or customer development validation or customer development before product development that means before product development that means before product development that means get the assumption validated prior to get the assumption validated prior to get the assumption validated prior to building the product. Now you can have building the product. Now you can have building the product. Now you can have some level of early you know um early some level of early you know um early some level of early you know um early lowfi product built or um you know have lowfi product built or um you know have lowfi product built or um you know have something structured where if someone something structured where if someone something structured where if someone says let me see it you can you know put says let me see it you can you know put says let me see it you can you know put something in action. But I'm talking something in action. But I'm talking something in action. But I'm talking like don't overbuild. Don't like don't overbuild. Don't like don't overbuild. Don't overengineer. Don't go, you know, put overengineer. Don't go, you know, put overengineer. Don't go, you know, put 90% of your time into just building the

90% of your time into just building the 90% of your time into just building the product. It should be split 50/50. 50% product. It should be split 50/50. 50% product. It should be split 50/50. 50% of your time should be speaking to the of your time should be speaking to the of your time should be speaking to the market and maybe the other 50% should be market and maybe the other 50% should be market and maybe the other 50% should be using that market's insight on the using that market's insight on the using that market's insight on the problem to then further develop the problem to then further develop the problem to then further develop the product because I've met a lot of product because I've met a lot of product because I've met a lot of founders who have built the product and founders who have built the product and founders who have built the product and the market doesn't agree the problem the market doesn't agree the problem the market doesn't agree the problem exists. And that that is the first thing exists. And that that is the first thing exists. And that that is the first thing that's going to crush your business. You that's going to crush your business. You that's going to crush your business. You can have an ugly product, but if you're can have an ugly product, but if you're can have an ugly product, but if you're solving the right problem, you'll be solving the right problem, you'll be solving the right problem, you'll be okay. okay. okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And you know, I'm glad Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And you know, I'm glad Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And you know, I'm glad you mentioned um having a vision as a you mentioned um having a vision as a you mentioned um having a vision as a founder because I will hear people say founder because I will hear people say founder because I will hear people say on Twitter, YouTube, whatever, and on Twitter, YouTube, whatever, and on Twitter, YouTube, whatever, and they'll say just talk to your customers. they'll say just talk to your customers. they'll say just talk to your customers. Your customers will tell you what to Your customers will tell you what to Your customers will tell you what to build. And I say with my last I my last build. And I say with my last I my last build. And I say with my last I my last SAS company was called Drip. It started SAS company was called Drip. It started SAS company was called Drip. It started off as just an email capture widget. It off as just an email capture widget. It off as just an email capture widget. It was in 2012 before anything, you know, was in 2012 before anything, you know, was in 2012 before anything, you know, there was no Optin Monster. There was no there was no Optin Monster. There was no there was no Optin Monster. There was no Sumo, right? So, so we built essentially Sumo, right? So, so we built essentially Sumo, right? So, so we built essentially the first productized uh SAS version of the first productized uh SAS version of the first productized uh SAS version of just an email capture popup. It could do just an email capture popup. It could do just an email capture popup. It could do toaster widgets in the bottom. It could toaster widgets in the bottom. It could toaster widgets in the bottom. It could do exit intents, blah blah blah. And all do exit intents, blah blah blah. And all do exit intents, blah blah blah. And all it did was do that plus send uh like an it did was do that plus send uh like an it did was do that plus send uh like an email autoresponders like a sequence.

email autoresponders like a sequence. email autoresponders like a sequence. That was it. So, it wasn't Mailchip, That was it. So, it wasn't Mailchip, That was it. So, it wasn't Mailchip, right? It didn't do broadcast. It did right? It didn't do broadcast. It did right? It didn't do broadcast. It did you couldn't import list. It couldn't do you couldn't import list. It couldn't do you couldn't import list. It couldn't do anything. It was just opting in. That anything. It was just opting in. That anything. It was just opting in. That was the initial hypothesis. Um was the initial hypothesis. Um was the initial hypothesis. Um we eventually became an ESP, right? We we eventually became an ESP, right? We we eventually became an ESP, right? We started competing with Mailchimp. Our started competing with Mailchimp. Our started competing with Mailchimp. Our customers, the early ones, all wanted us customers, the early ones, all wanted us customers, the early ones, all wanted us to just copy Mailchimp. And they all to just copy Mailchimp. And they all to just copy Mailchimp. And they all wanted us to copy Infusionoft. They kept wanted us to copy Infusionoft. They kept wanted us to copy Infusionoft. They kept saying, like people would be like, "We saying, like people would be like, "We saying, like people would be like, "We want you to build a shopping cart into want you to build a shopping cart into want you to build a shopping cart into your your ESP. We want you to build your your ESP. We want you to build your your ESP. We want you to build affiliate management because infusionoft affiliate management because infusionoft affiliate management because infusionoft if you did that, I would switch. We want if you did that, I would switch. We want if you did that, I would switch. We want you to build an Android app and a and an you to build an Android app and a and an you to build an Android app and a and an iOS app." And I'm like, we're a iOS app." And I'm like, we're a iOS app." And I'm like, we're a bootstrap team of two people like in a bootstrap team of two people like in a bootstrap team of two people like in a closet in Fresno, California. We don't closet in Fresno, California. We don't closet in Fresno, California. We don't have the resources. So as a result, as have the resources. So as a result, as have the resources. So as a result, as you said, you can listen to your you said, you can listen to your you said, you can listen to your customers, but you're some customers are customers, but you're some customers are customers, but you're some customers are going to send you off on wild freaking going to send you off on wild freaking going to send you off on wild freaking goose chases and you have to know or some filter, right, to say which of or some filter, right, to say which of these and which of these requests, these and which of these requests, these and which of these requests, right? Or which of these uh data points right? Or which of these uh data points right? Or which of these uh data points am I going to take in and act on? So am I going to take in and act on? So am I going to take in and act on? So with with that in mind, like how do you with with that in mind, like how do you with with that in mind, like how do you think how do you think about doing that think how do you think about doing that think how do you think about doing that filtering and going after the ones that filtering and going after the ones that filtering and going after the ones that are right? are right? are right? Yeah. And you make such a good point Yeah. And you make such a good point Yeah. And you make such a good point because when you an early adopter or because when you an early adopter or because when you an early adopter or your first c your first few customers, your first c your first few customers, your first c your first few customers, they're not going to buy a platform.

they're not going to buy a platform. they're not going to buy a platform. They're going to buy an injection point They're going to buy an injection point They're going to buy an injection point where they can say, "You know what? I where they can say, "You know what? I where they can say, "You know what? I think you can do it. Let me test it think you can do it. Let me test it think you can do it. Let me test it first." Who, what B2B buyer or um uh first." Who, what B2B buyer or um uh first." Who, what B2B buyer or um uh executive is going to say, "Yeah, let's executive is going to say, "Yeah, let's executive is going to say, "Yeah, let's rip out everything we've just done and rip out everything we've just done and rip out everything we've just done and implement this unknown thing to do all implement this unknown thing to do all implement this unknown thing to do all of these other things, right? you you of these other things, right? you you of these other things, right? you you almost want a very small little um uh almost want a very small little um uh almost want a very small little um uh little entry point that can be tested little entry point that can be tested little entry point that can be tested and then you can always expand from and then you can always expand from and then you can always expand from there. Um and I always say 80% of the there. Um and I always say 80% of the there. Um and I always say 80% of the value usually comes from 20% of the value usually comes from 20% of the value usually comes from 20% of the product the first time around. Um sorry. product the first time around. Um sorry. product the first time around. Um sorry. Yes, 80% of the value comes from 20% of Yes, 80% of the value comes from 20% of Yes, 80% of the value comes from 20% of the product. Um and and to to what the product. Um and and to to what the product. Um and and to to what you're saying like it's so like if you you're saying like it's so like if you you're saying like it's so like if you go out and speak to the market and they go out and speak to the market and they go out and speak to the market and they give you all the things that they want, give you all the things that they want, give you all the things that they want, you're going to end up with a Swiss Army you're going to end up with a Swiss Army you're going to end up with a Swiss Army knife. Do you know how hard it is to knife. Do you know how hard it is to knife. Do you know how hard it is to sell a Swiss Swiss Army knife? Like sell a Swiss Swiss Army knife? Like sell a Swiss Swiss Army knife? Like that's a really really hard who's your that's a really really hard who's your that's a really really hard who's your customer? What do they care about? Why customer? What do they care about? Why customer? What do they care about? Why are they going to use a Swiss Army are they going to use a Swiss Army are they going to use a Swiss Army knife? There's millions of reasons to knife? There's millions of reasons to knife? There's millions of reasons to use a Swiss Army knife, right? And I use a Swiss Army knife, right? And I use a Swiss Army knife, right? And I think there's this this misconception think there's this this misconception think there's this this misconception that, you know, when you go out and that, you know, when you go out and that, you know, when you go out and raise funding, your VC wants to have a raise funding, your VC wants to have a raise funding, your VC wants to have a large market, which is true, right?

large market, which is true, right? large market, which is true, right? Because they have an objective, too. Because they have an objective, too. Because they have an objective, too. However, a horizontal product on day one However, a horizontal product on day one However, a horizontal product on day one is a disaster. You need to verticalize is a disaster. You need to verticalize is a disaster. You need to verticalize and you need to have traction and you and you need to have traction and you and you need to have traction and you need to build specificity and trust with need to build specificity and trust with need to build specificity and trust with a very specific customer base and then a very specific customer base and then a very specific customer base and then you can easily expand from there, right? you can easily expand from there, right? you can easily expand from there, right? Getting your first two customers that Getting your first two customers that Getting your first two customers that look alike makes getting your third, look alike makes getting your third, look alike makes getting your third, fourth, fifth customers easier and fourth, fifth customers easier and fourth, fifth customers easier and easier and easier and there's these easier and easier and there's these easier and easier and there's these compounding effects. And once you have compounding effects. And once you have compounding effects. And once you have product market fit there and the wheel product market fit there and the wheel product market fit there and the wheel is spinning and the momentum is built, is spinning and the momentum is built, is spinning and the momentum is built, you can then use that revenue and then you can then use that revenue and then you can then use that revenue and then say, "Okay, now let's go test the net say, "Okay, now let's go test the net say, "Okay, now let's go test the net new segment, right?" and start to build new segment, right?" and start to build new segment, right?" and start to build on top of build build on top of it. Um on top of build build on top of it. Um on top of build build on top of it. Um but yeah, I mean people and the other but yeah, I mean people and the other but yeah, I mean people and the other thing too is is like when you reach thing too is is like when you reach thing too is is like when you reach product market fit a lot of people want product market fit a lot of people want product market fit a lot of people want to build upon their product and sell to to build upon their product and sell to to build upon their product and sell to existing customers and just create more existing customers and just create more existing customers and just create more value that way. That is so much harder value that way. That is so much harder value that way. That is so much harder to do than take what ex is existing to do than take what ex is existing to do than take what ex is existing working and then going out and starting working and then going out and starting working and then going out and starting to add more and more logos because you to add more and more logos because you to add more and more logos because you also want to diversify your customer also want to diversify your customer also want to diversify your customer base. You don't want this concentration base. You don't want this concentration base. You don't want this concentration of 10 people that you know are buying of 10 people that you know are buying of 10 people that you know are buying more and more of your product and you more and more of your product and you more and more of your product and you get one to leave and all of a sudden get one to leave and all of a sudden get one to leave and all of a sudden everything breaks. So um so yeah the the everything breaks. So um so yeah the the everything breaks. So um so yeah the the idea of being extremely focused having a idea of being extremely focused having a idea of being extremely focused having a clear injection point a clear entry clear injection point a clear entry clear injection point a clear entry point and expanding from there is really point and expanding from there is really point and expanding from there is really important and you don't need to important and you don't need to important and you don't need to overbuild like it doesn't require that overbuild like it doesn't require that overbuild like it doesn't require that much you don't you're not building a much you don't you're not building a much you don't you're not building a platform on day one.

platform on day one. platform on day one. We have a question for we have a couple We have a question for we have a couple We have a question for we have a couple questions actually. So, Brandon Briner questions actually. So, Brandon Briner questions actually. So, Brandon Briner on YouTube, he says, "How do you find on YouTube, he says, "How do you find on YouTube, he says, "How do you find the market?" I think that is my biggest the market?" I think that is my biggest the market?" I think that is my biggest problem. And I think he's referring to problem. And I think he's referring to problem. And I think he's referring to how do I find people to speak with, how do I find people to speak with, how do I find people to speak with, right? Even just the initial and I'm right? Even just the initial and I'm right? Even just the initial and I'm going to throw out just a quick on going to throw out just a quick on going to throw out just a quick on because the answer is it depends on your because the answer is it depends on your because the answer is it depends on your market. So, we have tiny I've invested market. So, we have tiny I've invested market. So, we have tiny I've invested in 100 companies between tiny seed and in 100 companies between tiny seed and in 100 companies between tiny seed and my personal investments. We have a app my personal investments. We have a app my personal investments. We have a app called or or a portfolio company called called or or a portfolio company called called or or a portfolio company called Sign Tracker and they are SAS for Sign Tracker and they are SAS for Sign Tracker and they are SAS for running your sign making business. Like running your sign making business. Like running your sign making business. Like if you make signs, you know, you often if you make signs, you know, you often if you make signs, you know, you often see the storefront of, you know, in a see the storefront of, you know, in a see the storefront of, you know, in a strip mall that's like we make signs. strip mall that's like we make signs. strip mall that's like we make signs. Okay. How are you going to find those Okay. How are you going to find those Okay. How are you going to find those people? Well, they're probably not in people? Well, they're probably not in people? Well, they're probably not in Facebook groups. They're probably not on Facebook groups. They're probably not on Facebook groups. They're probably not on Twitter and Hacker News, right? It's Twitter and Hacker News, right? It's Twitter and Hacker News, right? It's like you you either cold call them, you like you you either cold call them, you like you you either cold call them, you visit them in person. What do they say? visit them in person. What do they say? visit them in person. What do they say? Go to the phone book, you know, and you Go to the phone book, you know, and you Go to the phone book, you know, and you make a you make a trip to them. On the make a you make a trip to them. On the make a you make a trip to them. On the flip side, when I started Drip, the ESP, flip side, when I started Drip, the ESP, flip side, when I started Drip, the ESP, I didn't have to look in the phone or I didn't have to look in the phone or I didn't have to look in the phone or drive around cuz I knew that, well, drive around cuz I knew that, well, drive around cuz I knew that, well, there were going to be kind of going to there were going to be kind of going to there were going to be kind of going to be SAS founders, there were going to be be SAS founders, there were going to be be SAS founders, there were going to be bloggers, there were going to be like bloggers, there were going to be like bloggers, there were going to be like there were different segments that you there were different segments that you there were different segments that you really needed a good ESP. And so, I knew really needed a good ESP. And so, I knew really needed a good ESP. And so, I knew where to find SAS founders. Where are where to find SAS founders. Where are where to find SAS founders. Where are they? They're on Twitter. They're they? They're on Twitter. They're they? They're on Twitter. They're listening to podcasts. They're in some listening to podcasts. They're in some listening to podcasts. They're in some Facebook groups. And same thing with, Facebook groups. And same thing with, Facebook groups. And same thing with, you know, bloggers. It's like they all you know, bloggers. It's like they all you know, bloggers. It's like they all hang out and go to the same events, hang out and go to the same events, hang out and go to the same events, right? So, that's how I looked at it.

right? So, that's how I looked at it. right? So, that's how I looked at it. Um, but, you know, Jen, I'd love to love Um, but, you know, Jen, I'd love to love Um, but, you know, Jen, I'd love to love to hear your opinion. to hear your opinion. to hear your opinion. Yeah. So my my expertise is really in Yeah. So my my expertise is really in Yeah. So my my expertise is really in the B2B world. So I I don't know how the B2B world. So I I don't know how the B2B world. So I I don't know how much this will pertain to B TOC but B much this will pertain to B TOC but B much this will pertain to B TOC but B TOC is much more of a marketing TOC is much more of a marketing TOC is much more of a marketing objective right while B2B is much objective right while B2B is much objective right while B2B is much typically you know obviously a typically you know obviously a typically you know obviously a productled growth and all these other productled growth and all these other productled growth and all these other different go to markets but typically is different go to markets but typically is different go to markets but typically is you know somewhat salesled at least in you know somewhat salesled at least in you know somewhat salesled at least in the beginning the beginning the beginning right which we are so micro in general right which we are so micro in general right which we are so micro in general like our advice our advice my advice is like our advice our advice my advice is like our advice our advice my advice is don't do B2C SAS like it almost doesn't don't do B2C SAS like it almost doesn't don't do B2C SAS like it almost doesn't exist right we're not Netflix and exist right we're not Netflix and exist right we're not Netflix and Spotify like we are strength mostly so Spotify like we are strength mostly so Spotify like we are strength mostly so everything's B2B we can just assume B2B everything's B2B we can just assume B2B everything's B2B we can just assume B2B SAS in this conversation But but SAS in this conversation But but SAS in this conversation But but sometimes now B2B can be marketing le sometimes now B2B can be marketing le sometimes now B2B can be marketing le right without sales we can have like no right without sales we can have like no right without sales we can have like no yeah but you know both both those yeah but you know both both those yeah but you know both both those approaches. Yep. approaches. Yep. approaches. Yep. So if you think about I think there well So if you think about I think there well So if you think about I think there well first of all in the zero to one journey first of all in the zero to one journey first of all in the zero to one journey when you're getting your first customers when you're getting your first customers when you're getting your first customers to your point of doing coding or to your point of doing coding or to your point of doing coding or marketing before coding you got to do marketing before coding you got to do marketing before coding you got to do sales before marketing right if you sales before marketing right if you sales before marketing right if you can't nail one to one you're never going can't nail one to one you're never going can't nail one to one you're never going to nail one to many right as a founder to nail one to many right as a founder to nail one to many right as a founder so or uh in anything you're doing so if so or uh in anything you're doing so if so or uh in anything you're doing so if you're targeting B2B right almost you're targeting B2B right almost you're targeting B2B right almost everyone has a pretty um upto-date everyone has a pretty um upto-date everyone has a pretty um upto-date LinkedIn in most cases right so going on LinkedIn in most cases right so going on LinkedIn in most cases right so going on LinkedIn LinkedIn LinkedIn getting access to tools like Apollo or getting access to tools like Apollo or getting access to tools like Apollo or data.com and segmenting within those data.com and segmenting within those data.com and segmenting within those tools to figure out your market. So, tools to figure out your market. So, tools to figure out your market. So, there's two things that are really there's two things that are really there's two things that are really important about a market. One, how big important about a market. One, how big important about a market. One, how big is it? I know many people that want to is it? I know many people that want to is it? I know many people that want to sell to CMOs of um ventureback startups

sell to CMOs of um ventureback startups sell to CMOs of um ventureback startups that have a marketing team size of 50. that have a marketing team size of 50. that have a marketing team size of 50. Okay, I'm just using that as a Okay, I'm just using that as a Okay, I'm just using that as a constraint. That actually might only be constraint. That actually might only be constraint. That actually might only be 50 startups, right? So you have just 50 startups, right? So you have just 50 startups, right? So you have just built this whole go to market and focus built this whole go to market and focus built this whole go to market and focus of trying to target this very specific of trying to target this very specific of trying to target this very specific group and the size of it is pretty group and the size of it is pretty group and the size of it is pretty small. Now that's okay if you're looking small. Now that's okay if you're looking small. Now that's okay if you're looking to get your first wins. But like if you to get your first wins. But like if you to get your first wins. But like if you want to generate some sustainability want to generate some sustainability want to generate some sustainability around what you're doing, you want it to around what you're doing, you want it to around what you're doing, you want it to be at least going to be able to produce be at least going to be able to produce be at least going to be able to produce a million dollars in in ARR, right? So a million dollars in in ARR, right? So a million dollars in in ARR, right? So when you're thinking about your market, when you're thinking about your market, when you're thinking about your market, the math piece must play a role. The the math piece must play a role. The the math piece must play a role. The second piece is you as the founder, you second piece is you as the founder, you second piece is you as the founder, you need to know who you built your product need to know who you built your product need to know who you built your product for. No one else. The market's not going for. No one else. The market's not going for. No one else. The market's not going to tell you that. They don't know, to tell you that. They don't know, to tell you that. They don't know, right? They only know their problem. So, right? They only know their problem. So, right? They only know their problem. So, you have to have some idea of, okay, you have to have some idea of, okay, you have to have some idea of, okay, here are three different types of here are three different types of here are three different types of specific groups I could sell to. And specific groups I could sell to. And specific groups I could sell to. And then what you need to do is go out and then what you need to do is go out and then what you need to do is go out and validate it. And it's a process of validate it. And it's a process of validate it. And it's a process of elimination. It's not a hedge. Don't go elimination. It's not a hedge. Don't go elimination. It's not a hedge. Don't go out and talk to all three different out and talk to all three different out and talk to all three different segments because you're going to bring segments because you're going to bring segments because you're going to bring back a lot of noise. Pick one, back a lot of noise. Pick one, back a lot of noise. Pick one, understand the math behind it, make sure understand the math behind it, make sure understand the math behind it, make sure it makes sense, and then go speak to 10 it makes sense, and then go speak to 10 it makes sense, and then go speak to 10 to 15 executives that you can get on the to 15 executives that you can get on the to 15 executives that you can get on the phone by sending a personalized cold phone by sending a personalized cold phone by sending a personalized cold email. Okay. If they're not inspired by email. Okay. If they're not inspired by email. Okay. If they're not inspired by the problem that you've listed in your the problem that you've listed in your the problem that you've listed in your email, that should also tell you email, that should also tell you email, that should also tell you something, right? So, you you almost something, right? So, you you almost something, right? So, you you almost have to run it through a little bit of have to run it through a little bit of have to run it through a little bit of an experiment to understand, can you an experiment to understand, can you an experiment to understand, can you even inspire people to take a call with even inspire people to take a call with even inspire people to take a call with you based off of the problem you're you based off of the problem you're you based off of the problem you're solving? And once you're on a call with solving? And once you're on a call with solving? And once you're on a call with them, what are the four problems you them, what are the four problems you them, what are the four problems you believe they're facing today? And that's believe they're facing today? And that's believe they're facing today? And that's when you want to test your vision. And when you want to test your vision. And when you want to test your vision. And you might come back after 10 calls and you might come back after 10 calls and you might come back after 10 calls and be like, none of my vision is correct.

be like, none of my vision is correct. be like, none of my vision is correct. So, you have an option. you pivot on the So, you have an option. you pivot on the So, you have an option. you pivot on the IC on your target market and test that IC on your target market and test that IC on your target market and test that that the next one or you dig deeper into that the next one or you dig deeper into that the next one or you dig deeper into the insights you've collected from the insights you've collected from the insights you've collected from learning from these folks and say okay I learning from these folks and say okay I learning from these folks and say okay I was off here but there's something over was off here but there's something over was off here but there's something over here let me dive deeper um and it's here let me dive deeper um and it's here let me dive deeper um and it's truly about finding repeatable themes truly about finding repeatable themes truly about finding repeatable themes and understanding where the rejection and understanding where the rejection and understanding where the rejection will redirect you and that can only will redirect you and that can only will redirect you and that can only happen in you know 10 to 15 happen in you know 10 to 15 happen in you know 10 to 15 conversations but again if you can't conversations but again if you can't conversations but again if you can't even get them on a phone call even get them on a phone call even get them on a phone call you also should be questioning, is this you also should be questioning, is this you also should be questioning, is this a market that's even inspired to want to a market that's even inspired to want to a market that's even inspired to want to learn more about this? learn more about this? learn more about this? All right, next question. We have four All right, next question. We have four All right, next question. We have four more questions that just poured in. This more questions that just poured in. This more questions that just poured in. This is great. So, lots of stuff coming from is great. So, lots of stuff coming from is great. So, lots of stuff coming from YouTube. Um, tech_ology YouTube. Um, tech_ology YouTube. Um, tech_ology asked, "So, this is a I'm I'm interested asked, "So, this is a I'm I'm interested asked, "So, this is a I'm I'm interested to see your reaction to this, Jen, to see your reaction to this, Jen, to see your reaction to this, Jen, because this is this is a fun one. So, because this is this is a fun one. So, because this is this is a fun one. So, after talking to friends, family, and after talking to friends, family, and after talking to friends, family, and some random people about your product, some random people about your product, some random people about your product, when do you know if it's good to build? when do you know if it's good to build? when do you know if it's good to build? How do you know that you validated How do you know that you validated How do you know that you validated enough?" And it feels like you started enough?" And it feels like you started enough?" And it feels like you started answering that question with with the answering that question with with the answering that question with with the prior answer, but you want to keep going prior answer, but you want to keep going prior answer, but you want to keep going with it.

with it. with it. Yep. Sure. So, first of all, never take Yep. Sure. So, first of all, never take Yep. Sure. So, first of all, never take any advice from friends and family. any advice from friends and family. any advice from friends and family. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Remove it. It will hurt you more than Remove it. It will hurt you more than Remove it. It will hurt you more than help you. So, just completely strip help you. So, just completely strip help you. So, just completely strip anything they've said. Okay. The anything they've said. Okay. The anything they've said. Okay. The unaffiliated customers or the randos are unaffiliated customers or the randos are unaffiliated customers or the randos are the sweet spot, right? Um it one, how the sweet spot, right? Um it one, how the sweet spot, right? Um it one, how did you get a convers Well, I guess I did you get a convers Well, I guess I did you get a convers Well, I guess I can't talk to them directly, but how did can't talk to them directly, but how did can't talk to them directly, but how did you get those conversations? I would you get those conversations? I would you get those conversations? I would keep doing that if it's sustainable and keep doing that if it's sustainable and keep doing that if it's sustainable and get more conversations. Again, there's get more conversations. Again, there's get more conversations. Again, there's three questions you can ask of a three questions you can ask of a three questions you can ask of a unaffiliated prospect that will help you unaffiliated prospect that will help you unaffiliated prospect that will help you determine leading indicators of them determine leading indicators of them determine leading indicators of them being an early adopter. One, do they being an early adopter. One, do they being an early adopter. One, do they agree a problem exists? Can you simply agree a problem exists? Can you simply agree a problem exists? Can you simply get a head nod? Okay, check gate check get a head nod? Okay, check gate check get a head nod? Okay, check gate check one. Gate check two. Have they tried to one. Gate check two. Have they tried to one. Gate check two. Have they tried to solve this in the past? solve this in the past? solve this in the past? The number one question, right? The number one question, right? The number one question, right? Historics are leading indicators of Historics are leading indicators of Historics are leading indicators of future intent. If they have not tried to future intent. If they have not tried to future intent. If they have not tried to solve this in the past, dig into the solve this in the past, dig into the solve this in the past, dig into the why. There might be a reason. It might why. There might be a reason. It might why. There might be a reason. It might be more of a relevant problem, but uh or be more of a relevant problem, but uh or be more of a relevant problem, but uh or a recent problem. But if someone has a recent problem. But if someone has a recent problem. But if someone has tried to solve this in the past tried to solve this in the past tried to solve this in the past unsuccessfully, leading indicator number unsuccessfully, leading indicator number unsuccessfully, leading indicator number one of an early adopter. Okay. The third one of an early adopter. Okay. The third one of an early adopter. Okay. The third piece is do they currently have budget piece is do they currently have budget piece is do they currently have budget or do they know how they would create or do they know how they would create or do they know how they would create budget to pay for this?

budget to pay for this? budget to pay for this? If they can't answer those last two If they can't answer those last two If they can't answer those last two questions, okay, I would mark that as questions, okay, I would mark that as questions, okay, I would mark that as false, right? Because just because they false, right? Because just because they false, right? Because just because they agree it's a problem doesn't mean it's a agree it's a problem doesn't mean it's a agree it's a problem doesn't mean it's a prioritized problem. That's what you prioritized problem. That's what you prioritized problem. That's what you want to understand. So, you know, want to understand. So, you know, want to understand. So, you know, there's certain gate checks you can go there's certain gate checks you can go there's certain gate checks you can go through. Those are the three types of through. Those are the three types of through. Those are the three types of questions I really like to understand in questions I really like to understand in questions I really like to understand in terms of the depth in terms of where terms of the depth in terms of where terms of the depth in terms of where this might sit on a priority list. And this might sit on a priority list. And this might sit on a priority list. And the the number one leading indicator is the the number one leading indicator is the the number one leading indicator is that historic piece of, hey, I have a that historic piece of, hey, I have a that historic piece of, hey, I have a problem with Y. Great. How have you problem with Y. Great. How have you problem with Y. Great. How have you tried to solve for Y? Well, we actually tried to solve for Y? Well, we actually tried to solve for Y? Well, we actually purchased X, but it didn't work. That's purchased X, but it didn't work. That's purchased X, but it didn't work. That's where you want to spend your time. Dig where you want to spend your time. Dig where you want to spend your time. Dig deeper with that individual and try and deeper with that individual and try and deeper with that individual and try and see if you could sell it before you see if you could sell it before you see if you could sell it before you build it. Like, hey, would you be a build it. Like, hey, would you be a build it. Like, hey, would you be a design partner with me? I'd love to design partner with me? I'd love to design partner with me? I'd love to bring you in on this. Um, if you didn't bring you in on this. Um, if you didn't bring you in on this. Um, if you didn't work with me, how else would you solve work with me, how else would you solve work with me, how else would you solve for this? And just there's different for this? And just there's different for this? And just there's different types of questions like that that you types of questions like that that you types of questions like that that you can start to seed them. And all you're can start to seed them. And all you're can start to seed them. And all you're trying to do is get the why behind the trying to do is get the why behind the trying to do is get the why behind the why behind the why. Um, which hopefully why behind the why. Um, which hopefully why behind the why. Um, which hopefully will give you the the true intent. will give you the the true intent. will give you the the true intent. Very nice. Next question is from Pavle Very nice. Next question is from Pavle Very nice. Next question is from Pavle VI Pavle 6 on YouTube. Uh let's touch VI Pavle 6 on YouTube. Uh let's touch VI Pavle 6 on YouTube. Uh let's touch the main area of Jen's expertise. How do the main area of Jen's expertise. How do the main area of Jen's expertise. How do you make it in the US after reaching you make it in the US after reaching you make it in the US after reaching product market fit in a different product market fit in a different product market fit in a different region? How big how much tuning or I region? How big how much tuning or I region? How big how much tuning or I think how much tuning is to be done? I think how much tuning is to be done? I think how much tuning is to be done? I think you know how many adjustments and think you know how many adjustments and think you know how many adjustments and changes or usually are we talking about changes or usually are we talking about changes or usually are we talking about starting from scratch?

starting from scratch? starting from scratch? Okay, so this is a little Okay, so this is a little Okay, so this is a little counterintuitive. Um, so counterintuitive. Um, so counterintuitive. Um, so the counterintuitive piece is because I the counterintuitive piece is because I the counterintuitive piece is because I found product market fit in a in my found product market fit in a in my found product market fit in a in my local market, it will be easier to find local market, it will be easier to find local market, it will be easier to find product market fit in the US market. It product market fit in the US market. It product market fit in the US market. It is actually harder to find product is actually harder to find product is actually harder to find product market fit in the US market after you market fit in the US market after you market fit in the US market after you have found product market fit elsewhere. have found product market fit elsewhere. have found product market fit elsewhere. I know that seems odd, but let me I know that seems odd, but let me I know that seems odd, but let me explain why. explain why. explain why. One, it does. One, it does. One, it does. You now you have the mindset now that You now you have the mindset now that You now you have the mindset now that because you're successful in this local because you're successful in this local because you're successful in this local market, it's going to translate. It market, it's going to translate. It market, it's going to translate. It never does. I've never seen a founder never does. I've never seen a founder never does. I've never seen a founder successfully take their learnings from successfully take their learnings from successfully take their learnings from their existing market and translate it their existing market and translate it their existing market and translate it into the US market. It's usually wildly into the US market. It's usually wildly into the US market. It's usually wildly different, right? The technical different, right? The technical different, right? The technical maturities are different, the buying maturities are different, the buying maturities are different, the buying processes are different, the willingness processes are different, the willingness processes are different, the willingness to spend is different. Um just the way to spend is different. Um just the way to spend is different. Um just the way the organizations are structured and how the organizations are structured and how the organizations are structured and how then their risk appetite is radically then their risk appetite is radically then their risk appetite is radically different. So completely you the the different. So completely you the the different. So completely you the the most successful founders take a day one most successful founders take a day one most successful founders take a day one approach when they come to the US even approach when they come to the US even approach when they come to the US even if they have product market fit if they have product market fit if they have product market fit elsewhere. Second, your product is built elsewhere. Second, your product is built elsewhere. Second, your product is built for a different market right now. It is for a different market right now. It is for a different market right now. It is literally you've taken feedback from literally you've taken feedback from literally you've taken feedback from your existing customers and have your existing customers and have your existing customers and have structured a product for that local structured a product for that local structured a product for that local region. So you actually might have gone region. So you actually might have gone region. So you actually might have gone down a little bit too far of a track. So down a little bit too far of a track. So down a little bit too far of a track. So now when you come into the US, the US now when you come into the US, the US now when you come into the US, the US might be like, well, it has to do this, might be like, well, it has to do this, might be like, well, it has to do this, this, and this in order for me to buy, this, and this in order for me to buy, this, and this in order for me to buy, right? Um, so don't assume that your right? Um, so don't assume that your right? Um, so don't assume that your product is ready to sell in the US product is ready to sell in the US product is ready to sell in the US either. Like again, take a day one either. Like again, take a day one either. Like again, take a day one approach and make sure you learn before approach and make sure you learn before approach and make sure you learn before you go out to sell. you have to earn the you go out to sell. you have to earn the you go out to sell. you have to earn the right to sell in the US. Um, the third

right to sell in the US. Um, the third right to sell in the US. Um, the third priest is it's so easy to delegate this priest is it's so easy to delegate this priest is it's so easy to delegate this to someone else because you've proven to someone else because you've proven to someone else because you've proven traction in your local market. traction in your local market. traction in your local market. Startups don't make it in the US. In Startups don't make it in the US. In Startups don't make it in the US. In fact, the failure rate is close to 93% fact, the failure rate is close to 93% fact, the failure rate is close to 93% for international ventureback startups for international ventureback startups for international ventureback startups to expand into the US because they to expand into the US because they to expand into the US because they delegate it so fast to a non-founder and delegate it so fast to a non-founder and delegate it so fast to a non-founder and then they don't find product market fit then they don't find product market fit then they don't find product market fit here. So, the biggest piece of advice I here. So, the biggest piece of advice I here. So, the biggest piece of advice I can have for you is assume a day one can have for you is assume a day one can have for you is assume a day one approach. Don't assume you have any approach. Don't assume you have any approach. Don't assume you have any level of product market fit here in the level of product market fit here in the level of product market fit here in the US and go out and validate the vision US and go out and validate the vision US and go out and validate the vision you have from your local market and see you have from your local market and see you have from your local market and see if it's true in the US market. It it it if it's true in the US market. It it it if it's true in the US market. It it it most likely will need to be iterated on I think there's a little bit of a lag I think there's a little bit of a lag here. wrong. I think here. wrong. I think here. wrong. I think he looks like he's still shaking his he looks like he's still shaking his he looks like he's still shaking his head from uh the question infantry to another. Am I back? I can infantry to another. Am I back? I can see you.

see you. see you. Uh I can hear you. I can't see you Uh I can hear you. I can't see you Uh I can hear you. I can't see you anymore. anymore. anymore. Okay, I'm going to kill my cam back real Okay, I'm going to kill my cam back real Okay, I'm going to kill my cam back real quick. There you go. quick. There you go. quick. There you go. Yeah, let's do that. All right, I'm Yeah, let's do that. All right, I'm Yeah, let's do that. All right, I'm going to ask the next question. We only going to ask the next question. We only going to ask the next question. We only have five minutes left, so we have three have five minutes left, so we have three have five minutes left, so we have three questions. We'll see if we can get questions. We'll see if we can get questions. We'll see if we can get through them before we wrap. Serendra through them before we wrap. Serendra through them before we wrap. Serendra Moran on YouTube asks, "What if you have Moran on YouTube asks, "What if you have Moran on YouTube asks, "What if you have a big competitor? Should you focus more a big competitor? Should you focus more a big competitor? Should you focus more on product than your 50 on product than your 50 on product than your 50 and perhaps split your time 8020 and perhaps split your time 8020 and perhaps split your time 8020 instead?" What is should I invest more instead?" What is should I invest more instead?" What is should I invest more time in my product to improve it because time in my product to improve it because time in my product to improve it because this competitor is more fullfeatured? this competitor is more fullfeatured? this competitor is more fullfeatured? So, uh, one is, uh, competitive spaces. So, uh, one is, uh, competitive spaces. So, uh, one is, uh, competitive spaces. There's pros and cons. The pro is people There's pros and cons. The pro is people There's pros and cons. The pro is people usually have budget created for it. So, usually have budget created for it. So, usually have budget created for it. So, that's exciting. The best thing you can that's exciting. The best thing you can that's exciting. The best thing you can do is find that injection point because do is find that injection point because do is find that injection point because it's typically the that's typically it's typically the that's typically it's typically the that's typically where the unmet need will live. Right? where the unmet need will live. Right? where the unmet need will live. Right? If you're selling, let's use a CRM, If you're selling, let's use a CRM, If you're selling, let's use a CRM, right? CRM are very competitive space. right? CRM are very competitive space. right? CRM are very competitive space. Um, when you go out and talk to Um, when you go out and talk to Um, when you go out and talk to prospective customers, what part of prospective customers, what part of prospective customers, what part of their existing CRM is not working? Are their existing CRM is not working? Are their existing CRM is not working? Are they still struggling with? That's where they still struggling with? That's where they still struggling with? That's where I would I would try and find that I would I would try and find that I would I would try and find that secondary job to be done knowing the secondary job to be done knowing the secondary job to be done knowing the primary job to be done is being served primary job to be done is being served primary job to be done is being served by probably most likely a competitor. So by probably most likely a competitor. So by probably most likely a competitor. So dig for that secondary job to be done dig for that secondary job to be done dig for that secondary job to be done and create assumptions based off of and create assumptions based off of and create assumptions based off of that. Two is find the and when you find that. Two is find the and when you find that. Two is find the and when you find that secondary job to be done, it's that secondary job to be done, it's that secondary job to be done, it's typically going to be une uneconomical typically going to be une uneconomical typically going to be une uneconomical for the con for the incumbent for the con for the incumbent for the con for the incumbent to solve for it, right? Because they're

to solve for it, right? Because they're to solve for it, right? Because they're they're they're focused on the 80%, not they're they're focused on the 80%, not they're they're focused on the 80%, not the 20%. Right? So, if you can find that the 20%. Right? So, if you can find that the 20%. Right? So, if you can find that small sliver that they kind of ignored small sliver that they kind of ignored small sliver that they kind of ignored or haven't gotten to yet because they're or haven't gotten to yet because they're or haven't gotten to yet because they're so big and they're not as flexible, own so big and they're not as flexible, own so big and they're not as flexible, own that and really again try and leverage that and really again try and leverage that and really again try and leverage that to your to your advantage because that to your to your advantage because that to your to your advantage because you can always expand, right? You can be you can always expand, right? You can be you can always expand, right? You can be a boltin to whatever solution they're a boltin to whatever solution they're a boltin to whatever solution they're using now and then you can use that using now and then you can use that using now and then you can use that trust to expand later down the line. So trust to expand later down the line. So trust to expand later down the line. So definitely seek to uncover the secondary definitely seek to uncover the secondary definitely seek to uncover the secondary job to be done by speaking to people job to be done by speaking to people job to be done by speaking to people already using maybe your competitor and already using maybe your competitor and already using maybe your competitor and understanding what is currently an unmet understanding what is currently an unmet understanding what is currently an unmet need or where are they still spending need or where are they still spending need or where are they still spending time and money because X solution is time and money because X solution is time and money because X solution is still not solving it entirely and no still not solving it entirely and no still not solving it entirely and no solution solves everything entirely solution solves everything entirely solution solves everything entirely right you look at Salesforce right right you look at Salesforce right right you look at Salesforce right Salesforce is a extremely mature robust Salesforce is a extremely mature robust Salesforce is a extremely mature robust and um uh you know wellused CRM but you and um uh you know wellused CRM but you and um uh you know wellused CRM but you still need to hire a CRM admin to pay to still need to hire a CRM admin to pay to still need to hire a CRM admin to pay to build it out for because it's so you build it out for because it's so you build it out for because it's so you know it's so challenging right so that know it's so challenging right so that know it's so challenging right so that secondary job to be done is really the secondary job to be done is really the secondary job to be done is really the services side to it right and they've services side to it right and they've services side to it right and they've they haven't really you know tackled they haven't really you know tackled they haven't really you know tackled that especially down market so what's that especially down market so what's that especially down market so what's that sec that secondary job or current that sec that secondary job or current that sec that secondary job or current underserved need that you can exploit underserved need that you can exploit underserved need that you can exploit knowing that it's going to be somewhat knowing that it's going to be somewhat knowing that it's going to be somewhat uneconomical for them to solve for it uneconomical for them to solve for it uneconomical for them to solve for it hopefully that was helpful excellent next question excellent next question asks Can you continue to talk about when asks Can you continue to talk about when asks Can you continue to talk about when is the right time to go horizontal and is the right time to go horizontal and is the right time to go horizontal and find new customer segments after you find new customer segments after you find new customer segments after you find product market fit in your first

find product market fit in your first find product market fit in your first segment? Is there a rule of thumb? segment? Is there a rule of thumb? segment? Is there a rule of thumb? Um Um Um it it really depends on your like how it it really depends on your like how it it really depends on your like how far how how big your ex your initial far how how big your ex your initial far how how big your ex your initial target market is. So I know people whose target market is. So I know people whose target market is. So I know people whose initial target markets are a thousand initial target markets are a thousand initial target markets are a thousand companies that they can go after. I know companies that they can go after. I know companies that they can go after. I know others that have 250 companies they can others that have 250 companies they can others that have 250 companies they can go after. Um, you really need to figure go after. Um, you really need to figure go after. Um, you really need to figure out, again, the math is probably going out, again, the math is probably going out, again, the math is probably going to answer that more than anything. Um, to answer that more than anything. Um, to answer that more than anything. Um, and there's a little bit of intuition as and there's a little bit of intuition as and there's a little bit of intuition as well, like when you have non-founders well, like when you have non-founders well, like when you have non-founders being able to service that existing being able to service that existing being able to service that existing market, I think that's usually a good market, I think that's usually a good market, I think that's usually a good sign, sign, sign, meaning a non-founder is able to sell meaning a non-founder is able to sell meaning a non-founder is able to sell into that market you're in. Um, that's into that market you're in. Um, that's into that market you're in. Um, that's usually a good sign that you as the usually a good sign that you as the usually a good sign that you as the founder can focus on the next market.

So, I I'll read this. I think there's a So, I I'll read this. I think there's a little bit of a lag from from Rob. Um, little bit of a lag from from Rob. Um, little bit of a lag from from Rob. Um, Francisco says, "I'm thinking of Francisco says, "I'm thinking of Francisco says, "I'm thinking of Excellent." Excellent." Excellent." Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. Last question for today because we're at Last question for today because we're at Last question for today because we're at time. Francisco on YouTube asks, I'm still here. Did the question come I'm still here. Did the question come through or was I too garbled? through or was I too garbled? through or was I too garbled? Uh, go ahead. You can repeat it. Uh, go ahead. You can repeat it. Uh, go ahead. You can repeat it. All right. So, Francisco on YouTube All right. So, Francisco on YouTube All right. So, Francisco on YouTube asks, "I'm thinking of a case manage of asks, "I'm thinking of a case manage of asks, "I'm thinking of a case manage of building a case management app. I have a building a case management app. I have a building a case management app. I have a lawyer who's looking for a solution. Uh lawyer who's looking for a solution. Uh lawyer who's looking for a solution. Uh lawyers sometimes get a bit scary. lawyers sometimes get a bit scary. lawyers sometimes get a bit scary. What's your advice? And I'm going to What's your advice? And I'm going to What's your advice? And I'm going to interpret the lawyer get a bit scary as interpret the lawyer get a bit scary as interpret the lawyer get a bit scary as you know I've heard that legal is you know I've heard that legal is you know I've heard that legal is sometimes difficult to sell, right? Or sometimes difficult to sell, right? Or sometimes difficult to sell, right? Or uh selling to lawyers is hard or uh selling to lawyers is hard or uh selling to lawyers is hard or something like that. So do you have any something like that. So do you have any something like that. So do you have any any opinions on that? any opinions on that? any opinions on that? Yep. Yeah. So if that is going to be the Yep. Yeah. So if that is going to be the Yep. Yeah. So if that is going to be the mark target market you are going to mark target market you are going to mark target market you are going to serve, uh it's good to get accustomed to serve, uh it's good to get accustomed to serve, uh it's good to get accustomed to that now. They are just risk averse, that now. They are just risk averse, that now. They are just risk averse, right? Like lawyers, if you think about right? Like lawyers, if you think about right? Like lawyers, if you think about just the the natural um in the the the just the the natural um in the the the just the the natural um in the the the natural uh duty of their job, it's to be natural uh duty of their job, it's to be natural uh duty of their job, it's to be riskaverse, right? And to reduce as much riskaverse, right? And to reduce as much riskaverse, right? And to reduce as much um exposure as possible. So, if you can um exposure as possible. So, if you can um exposure as possible. So, if you can understand what will get a lawyer understand what will get a lawyer understand what will get a lawyer comfortable uh and trust you. Again, if comfortable uh and trust you. Again, if comfortable uh and trust you. Again, if someone has a true pain, they're willing someone has a true pain, they're willing someone has a true pain, they're willing to take slightly more risk. A lawyer is to take slightly more risk. A lawyer is to take slightly more risk. A lawyer is going to want to know what that risk is.

going to want to know what that risk is. going to want to know what that risk is. So, be super upfront and vulnerable with So, be super upfront and vulnerable with So, be super upfront and vulnerable with them and just say, "Listen, I'm building them and just say, "Listen, I'm building them and just say, "Listen, I'm building this. I would love you as a design this. I would love you as a design this. I would love you as a design partner. Um, we're going to take this partner. Um, we're going to take this partner. Um, we're going to take this slowly, right? Let me solve this one job slowly, right? Let me solve this one job slowly, right? Let me solve this one job first and then we can always add more." first and then we can always add more." first and then we can always add more." Um, but again, it's good to know who Um, but again, it's good to know who Um, but again, it's good to know who your market is. But yes, I do agree your market is. But yes, I do agree your market is. But yes, I do agree lawyers are slightly more riskaverse. lawyers are slightly more riskaverse. lawyers are slightly more riskaverse. But all that means is you just need to But all that means is you just need to But all that means is you just need to change your buying process and how you change your buying process and how you change your buying process and how you approach it a little bit differently and approach it a little bit differently and approach it a little bit differently and just be upfront uh and vulnerable and um just be upfront uh and vulnerable and um just be upfront uh and vulnerable and um and and do things that or ask them what and and do things that or ask them what and and do things that or ask them what would make them feel comfortable, right? would make them feel comfortable, right? would make them feel comfortable, right? If if you were to come in and integrate. If if you were to come in and integrate. If if you were to come in and integrate. Um so yeah, that would be my answer to Um so yeah, that would be my answer to Um so yeah, that would be my answer to that. that. that. Sounds great. Jen Aable, you are Sounds great. Jen Aable, you are Sounds great. Jen Aable, you are Jen_abbeel Jen_abbeel Jen_abbeel on Twitter if folks want to follow you. on Twitter if folks want to follow you. on Twitter if folks want to follow you. And of course, jellyfish dot And of course, jellyfish dot And of course, jellyfish dot jellyfish.com jellyfish.com jellyfish.com if they they want to see what you're if they they want to see what you're if they they want to see what you're doing dayto-day. Thanks so much for doing dayto-day. Thanks so much for doing dayto-day. Thanks so much for joining us today. joining us today. joining us today. Awesome. Thank you so much, Rob. This Awesome. Thank you so much, Rob. This Awesome. Thank you so much, Rob. This was great. was great. was great. All right, a couple things as we wrap. All right, a couple things as we wrap. All right, a couple things as we wrap. We have a Micro Comp local coming up in We have a Micro Comp local coming up in We have a Micro Comp local coming up in 13 days in Philadelphia, August 16th.

13 days in Philadelphia, August 16th. 13 days in Philadelphia, August 16th. We're going to have Shaok Roy, the CEO We're going to have Shaok Roy, the CEO We're going to have Shaok Roy, the CEO and founder of Yellow Dig. Tickets are and founder of Yellow Dig. Tickets are and founder of Yellow Dig. Tickets are on sale, microsoft.com/locals. on sale, microsoft.com/locals. on sale, microsoft.com/locals. And as always, thank you to Hey and And as always, thank you to Hey and And as always, thank you to Hey and Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners once again this year. They make once again this year. They make once again this year. They make everything we do just a little easier. everything we do just a little easier. everything we do just a little easier. Thanks so much for joining