Freemium, Growth at Summit, + Forecasting Currency Fluctuations with Matt Wensing – MicroConf On Air

And we are live. Welcome to this week's And we are live. Welcome to this week's episode of Microcom on Air. I'm your episode of Microcom on Air. I'm your episode of Microcom on Air. I'm your host Rob Walling, the Q&A specialist. host Rob Walling, the Q&A specialist. host Rob Walling, the Q&A specialist. According to producer Xander, who likes According to producer Xander, who likes According to producer Xander, who likes to mix that up. If you're missing out on to mix that up. If you're missing out on to mix that up. If you're missing out on these live streams and seeing the video these live streams and seeing the video these live streams and seeing the video and all the clever stuff Xander comes up and all the clever stuff Xander comes up and all the clever stuff Xander comes up with, um, you're missing out. Microconf with, um, you're missing out. Microconf with, um, you're missing out. Microconf onair.com. onair.com. onair.com. Every Wednesday at 1 PM Eastern, we live Every Wednesday at 1 PM Eastern, we live Every Wednesday at 1 PM Eastern, we live stream for 30 minutes and we cover stream for 30 minutes and we cover stream for 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy value and maintain healthy value and maintain healthy relationships. Thank you so much for relationships. Thank you so much for relationships. Thank you so much for joining me this week. I'm excited to joining me this week. I'm excited to joining me this week. I'm excited to once again be live streaming with my once again be live streaming with my once again be live streaming with my gorgeous library behind me and um the gorgeous library behind me and um the gorgeous library behind me and um the great a great Minneapolis lake in front great a great Minneapolis lake in front great a great Minneapolis lake in front of me. So, it's already snowed twice of me. So, it's already snowed twice of me. So, it's already snowed twice this year, although most of it still is this year, although most of it still is this year, although most of it still is melting. And US Thanksgiving is next melting. And US Thanksgiving is next melting. And US Thanksgiving is next week. So I believe we won't be doing a week. So I believe we won't be doing a week. So I believe we won't be doing a live stream next week and we'll see uh live stream next week and we'll see uh live stream next week and we'll see uh you know back again in early December you know back again in early December you know back again in early December after this. Today's topic is question after this. Today's topic is question after this. Today's topic is question and answer. We've had so many good and answer. We've had so many good and answer. We've had so many good episodes of Q&A and they seem to be episodes of Q&A and they seem to be episodes of Q&A and they seem to be really popular. There's a lot of really popular. There's a lot of really popular. There's a lot of engagement. I've answered a few engagement. I've answered a few engagement. I've answered a few questions. I've had some folks come on questions. I've had some folks come on questions. I've had some folks come on and join me and we want to just dip our and join me and we want to just dip our and join me and we want to just dip our toe in the water further and and figure toe in the water further and and figure toe in the water further and and figure out how to make things as relevant as out how to make things as relevant as out how to make things as relevant as possible for you the the audience possible for you the the audience possible for you the the audience members and you know perhaps you the members and you know perhaps you the members and you know perhaps you the listener if you're listening to this on listener if you're listening to this on listener if you're listening to this on the Micro podcast as well. And so we're the Micro podcast as well. And so we're the Micro podcast as well. And so we're going to be toying around with things going to be toying around with things going to be toying around with things over the next few weeks, few months, and over the next few weeks, few months, and over the next few weeks, few months, and bringing some guests on to help uh you bringing some guests on to help uh you bringing some guests on to help uh you know, know, know, kind of categorize or or shrink the um kind of categorize or or shrink the um kind of categorize or or shrink the um the word I'm looking for is to kind of

the word I'm looking for is to kind of the word I'm looking for is to kind of narrow the focus of some of the narrow the focus of some of the narrow the focus of some of the questions down to the expertise of a questions down to the expertise of a questions down to the expertise of a particular founder or subject matter particular founder or subject matter particular founder or subject matter expert. So to kick us off this week with expert. So to kick us off this week with expert. So to kick us off this week with that in mind, I would love to welcome that in mind, I would love to welcome that in mind, I would love to welcome Matt Wing to the show. He's the founder Matt Wing to the show. He's the founder Matt Wing to the show. He's the founder of Summit, which is usesummit.com, of Summit, which is usesummit.com, of Summit, which is usesummit.com, which is a financial modeling platform. which is a financial modeling platform. which is a financial modeling platform. I call it a forecasting platform for SAS I call it a forecasting platform for SAS I call it a forecasting platform for SAS applications. Matt is the co-host of the applications. Matt is the co-host of the applications. Matt is the co-host of the Out of Beta podcast. He hosts that with Out of Beta podcast. He hosts that with Out of Beta podcast. He hosts that with Peter Sum. If you're not listening to Peter Sum. If you're not listening to Peter Sum. If you're not listening to it, you should check it out. It's two it, you should check it out. It's two it, you should check it out. It's two mostly bootstrap founders having mostly bootstrap founders having mostly bootstrap founders having week-toeek conversations for about 45 to week-toeek conversations for about 45 to week-toeek conversations for about 45 to 60 minutes about what they're up to as 60 minutes about what they're up to as 60 minutes about what they're up to as makers and managers. And Matt is the makers and managers. And Matt is the makers and managers. And Matt is the founding he's the founding CEO of Ris founding he's the founding CEO of Ris founding he's the founding CEO of Ris Pulse, which was acquired in 2019. He Pulse, which was acquired in 2019. He Pulse, which was acquired in 2019. He enjoys writing code and essays about enjoys writing code and essays about enjoys writing code and essays about growth and new forms of capital. Mr. growth and new forms of capital. Mr. growth and new forms of capital. Mr. Wensing, thank you for joining me on the Wensing, thank you for joining me on the Wensing, thank you for joining me on the show today. Uh oh, Uh oh, producer Xander, what's our issue? So, producer Xander, what's our issue? So, producer Xander, what's our issue? So, Matt, yeah, Matt's muted. Matt, yeah, Matt's muted. Matt, yeah, Matt's muted. There we There we go. My my issue was I There we There we go. My my issue was I There we There we go. My my issue was I had to click the microphone button. Hey, had to click the microphone button. Hey, had to click the microphone button. Hey, good to be here, Rob.

good to be here, Rob. good to be here, Rob. I hear that all the time. Yeah, man. I hear that all the time. Yeah, man. I hear that all the time. Yeah, man. Thanks. So, you got a cool little uh Thanks. So, you got a cool little uh Thanks. So, you got a cool little uh purple mic cover there. I'm digging that purple mic cover there. I'm digging that purple mic cover there. I'm digging that on brand. on brand. on brand. Oh, all in fashion. He's got his Jo. Oh, all in fashion. He's got his Jo. Oh, all in fashion. He's got his Jo. Yeah, it's got the Joker uh Joker color Yeah, it's got the Joker uh Joker color Yeah, it's got the Joker uh Joker color theme. So, we already have um questions theme. So, we already have um questions theme. So, we already have um questions coming through for you, man. This is coming through for you, man. This is coming through for you, man. This is good. I'm excited. Uh first question good. I'm excited. Uh first question good. I'm excited. Uh first question from Noah Brag. So, so if you want to from Noah Brag. So, so if you want to from Noah Brag. So, so if you want to ask questions, please do. Um we'll be ask questions, please do. Um we'll be ask questions, please do. Um we'll be fielding them for about the next 23 fielding them for about the next 23 fielding them for about the next 23 minutes. And Micromp onair is the minutes. And Micromp onair is the minutes. And Micromp onair is the channel in the Microcom Connect Slack. channel in the Microcom Connect Slack. channel in the Microcom Connect Slack. If you're not in Microcon, head to If you're not in Microcon, head to If you're not in Microcon, head to microchonnect.com to sign up. So, first microchonnect.com to sign up. So, first microchonnect.com to sign up. So, first question is from Noah Brag. He says, question is from Noah Brag. He says, question is from Noah Brag. He says, "Matt Wing, when are you going to start "Matt Wing, when are you going to start "Matt Wing, when are you going to start hiring a team for Summit?" hiring a team for Summit?" hiring a team for Summit?" I know. But you're like, "Dude, slow I know. But you're like, "Dude, slow I know. But you're like, "Dude, slow down." down." down." That's pretty funny. Uh, yeah, just top That's pretty funny. Uh, yeah, just top That's pretty funny. Uh, yeah, just top shelf right away. Um, yeah. Well, maybe shelf right away. Um, yeah. Well, maybe shelf right away. Um, yeah. Well, maybe I can answer this in a way that's a I can answer this in a way that's a I can answer this in a way that's a little bit more uh helpful if I think little bit more uh helpful if I think little bit more uh helpful if I think about my my reasoning here. And so I was about my my reasoning here. And so I was about my my reasoning here. And so I was actually answering this question for an actually answering this question for an actually answering this question for an investor yesterday. Um, and I think it investor yesterday. Um, and I think it investor yesterday. Um, and I think it really comes down to when do I feel like really comes down to when do I feel like really comes down to when do I feel like some part of what I'm doing has some part of what I'm doing has some part of what I'm doing has effectively been, you might say, effectively been, you might say, effectively been, you might say, derisked or turned into something that derisked or turned into something that derisked or turned into something that somebody else could do in a way where somebody else could do in a way where somebody else could do in a way where I'm just really confident that their I'm just really confident that their I'm just really confident that their time and, you know, the money being time and, you know, the money being time and, you know, the money being spent on them by the company is is well spent on them by the company is is well spent on them by the company is is well spent, right?

spent, right? spent, right? um where you don't have that doubt and um where you don't have that doubt and um where you don't have that doubt and uh I am definitely stretched thinner and uh I am definitely stretched thinner and uh I am definitely stretched thinner and thinner but not quite there yet. I would thinner but not quite there yet. I would thinner but not quite there yet. I would say I mean say I mean say I mean early next year is my uh is my early next year is my uh is my early next year is my uh is my guesstimate for that. I I do feel that guesstimate for that. I I do feel that guesstimate for that. I I do feel that there are now things in the business there are now things in the business there are now things in the business where hey I've figured this out. I know where hey I've figured this out. I know where hey I've figured this out. I know how this works. You just got to do it. how this works. You just got to do it. how this works. You just got to do it. Somebody just needs to turn this wheel Somebody just needs to turn this wheel Somebody just needs to turn this wheel every day. Um, and it would be totally every day. Um, and it would be totally every day. Um, and it would be totally worth it for somebody to do that. I just worth it for somebody to do that. I just worth it for somebody to do that. I just have to work on the resources now to have to work on the resources now to have to work on the resources now to staff that position. So, yeah. staff that position. So, yeah. staff that position. So, yeah. Yeah. No, I think you make a great point Yeah. No, I think you make a great point Yeah. No, I think you make a great point here. I often think about it as two here. I often think about it as two here. I often think about it as two things. One is do I have the budget? And things. One is do I have the budget? And things. One is do I have the budget? And two, do I have tasks or projects that two, do I have tasks or projects that two, do I have tasks or projects that someone else could do that it doesn't someone else could do that it doesn't someone else could do that it doesn't require essentially a founder or a require essentially a founder or a require essentially a founder or a founder level like an owner level founder level like an owner level founder level like an owner level mindset and that that's how you broke it mindset and that that's how you broke it mindset and that that's how you broke it down and down and down and um early next year. It's a good answer, um early next year. It's a good answer, um early next year. It's a good answer, man. man. man. I hope. Uh, second question, uh, Dave I hope. Uh, second question, uh, Dave I hope. Uh, second question, uh, Dave Wmer. I think it's it's a little jokey Wmer. I think it's it's a little jokey Wmer. I think it's it's a little jokey question, but I'll read it anyways. He question, but I'll read it anyways. He question, but I'll read it anyways. He says, "Matt Wing, have you and Peter S says, "Matt Wing, have you and Peter S says, "Matt Wing, have you and Peter S considered changing the name of your considered changing the name of your considered changing the name of your podcast to Out of Metaphors? Definitely podcast to Out of Metaphors? Definitely podcast to Out of Metaphors? Definitely the most metaphor dense startup podcast the most metaphor dense startup podcast the most metaphor dense startup podcast I listen to, and I love it. Great stuff.

I listen to, and I love it. Great stuff. I listen to, and I love it. Great stuff. Love listening each week." Love listening each week." Love listening each week." That's That's funny. Uh, we haven't, but That's That's funny. Uh, we haven't, but That's That's funny. Uh, we haven't, but I I have been accused of I've been I I have been accused of I've been I I have been accused of I've been accused of stuffing many many metaphors accused of stuffing many many metaphors accused of stuffing many many metaphors into things before, so that's not the into things before, so that's not the into things before, so that's not the first time I've heard that. um uh first time I've heard that. um uh first time I've heard that. um uh positive complaint. positive complaint. positive complaint. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or commentary. So, yeah, I appreciate it Or commentary. So, yeah, I appreciate it Or commentary. So, yeah, I appreciate it and I'm glad. Thanks for listening. and I'm glad. Thanks for listening. and I'm glad. Thanks for listening. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, metaphors are good for kind of Yeah, metaphors are good for kind of Yeah, metaphors are good for kind of framing framing things that may be too framing framing things that may be too framing framing things that may be too complex or just thinking about them in a complex or just thinking about them in a complex or just thinking about them in a different way, right? different way, right? different way, right? Yeah. Actually, real quick thought, I Yeah. Actually, real quick thought, I Yeah. Actually, real quick thought, I think there's a book which I didn't think there's a book which I didn't think there's a book which I didn't grab. I really should have given grab. I really should have given grab. I really should have given everybody's feedback, but uh just everybody's feedback, but uh just everybody's feedback, but uh just reading a little bit of it, it was it reading a little bit of it, it was it reading a little bit of it, it was it was basically saying that um we can only was basically saying that um we can only was basically saying that um we can only learn through metaphors or relationships learn through metaphors or relationships learn through metaphors or relationships to things we already know. Um and if you to things we already know. Um and if you to things we already know. Um and if you want to really dive into the current want to really dive into the current want to really dive into the current worlds, I mean, that's what positioning worlds, I mean, that's what positioning worlds, I mean, that's what positioning I think that's what April Dunford and I think that's what April Dunford and I think that's what April Dunford and positioning and all that is all about, positioning and all that is all about, positioning and all that is all about, right? You're effectively saying, "Let right? You're effectively saying, "Let right? You're effectively saying, "Let me help you triangulate what the heck me help you triangulate what the heck me help you triangulate what the heck I'm doing and what I'm talking about."

I'm doing and what I'm talking about." I'm doing and what I'm talking about." So, yeah, it's a you're going to see So, yeah, it's a you're going to see So, yeah, it's a you're going to see that all over the place. that all over the place. that all over the place. Yeah, I like that thought. I was going Yeah, I like that thought. I was going Yeah, I like that thought. I was going to bring positioning in too. I remember to bring positioning in too. I remember to bring positioning in too. I remember talking to a founder and we were talking to a founder and we were talking to a founder and we were chatting through uh their website. I chatting through uh their website. I chatting through uh their website. I went to their website and the H1 said went to their website and the H1 said went to their website and the H1 said something very vague of like we help you something very vague of like we help you something very vague of like we help you send better email or I don't remember send better email or I don't remember send better email or I don't remember what it was but something like that and what it was but something like that and what it was but something like that and I was like so are you like Gmail or are I was like so are you like Gmail or are I was like so are you like Gmail or are you like cold email outreach like you like cold email outreach like you like cold email outreach like yeswear or are you like Mailchimp or are yeswear or are you like Mailchimp or are yeswear or are you like Mailchimp or are you like and and what I realize is you like and and what I realize is you like and and what I realize is all I'm doing is trying to relate you to all I'm doing is trying to relate you to all I'm doing is trying to relate you to some a category that's already in my some a category that's already in my some a category that's already in my head. I know there's an email client or head. I know there's an email client or head. I know there's an email client or you know and I know that there is cold you know and I know that there is cold you know and I know that there is cold email I know there's warm email I know email I know there's warm email I know email I know there's warm email I know that there is marketing email I know you that there is marketing email I know you that there is marketing email I know you know and that's what positioning comes know and that's what positioning comes know and that's what positioning comes back to and that's how metaphors help us back to and that's how metaphors help us back to and that's how metaphors help us right is how do I link this to something right is how do I link this to something right is how do I link this to something already in my own head already in my own head already in my own head yeah and very concretely I think the yeah and very concretely I think the yeah and very concretely I think the integrations that your product requires integrations that your product requires integrations that your product requires and the integrations that your product and the integrations that your product and the integrations that your product can support these days are like the can support these days are like the can support these days are like the shortcut to people figuring that out in shortcut to people figuring that out in shortcut to people figuring that out in a way it's like oh you you read from my a way it's like oh you you read from my a way it's like oh you you read from my stripe and you feed into my whatever stripe and you feed into my whatever stripe and you feed into my whatever like instant sort of positioning in a like instant sort of positioning in a like instant sort of positioning in a way. Um at least you're technical. So way. Um at least you're technical. So way. Um at least you're technical. So that is that is another way to almost that is that is another way to almost that is that is another way to almost self diagnose or help others diagnose self diagnose or help others diagnose self diagnose or help others diagnose your positioning is even if you don't your positioning is even if you don't your positioning is even if you don't have the best words. It's like oh if you have the best words. It's like oh if you have the best words. It's like oh if you integrate with these three tools you're integrate with these three tools you're integrate with these three tools you're probably you're not any of those but you probably you're not any of those but you probably you're not any of those but you you know you enhance those. I think you know you enhance those. I think you know you enhance those. I think that's um definitely something I've been that's um definitely something I've been that's um definitely something I've been thinking about with Summit.

thinking about with Summit. thinking about with Summit. Yeah. Yeah, you had a cool description Yeah. Yeah, you had a cool description Yeah. Yeah, you had a cool description of summit I believe on the first time of summit I believe on the first time of summit I believe on the first time you came on startups with the rest of us you came on startups with the rest of us you came on startups with the rest of us where you said barometrics chart mogul where you said barometrics chart mogul where you said barometrics chart mogul and profit well essentially look and profit well essentially look and profit well essentially look backwards they're your analytics or your backwards they're your analytics or your backwards they're your analytics or your metrics um and and summit looks forwards metrics um and and summit looks forwards metrics um and and summit looks forwards looks ahead and I was like ah that's I looks ahead and I was like ah that's I looks ahead and I was like ah that's I mean it's forecasting right that's why I mean it's forecasting right that's why I mean it's forecasting right that's why I say that but I know it's more than that say that but I know it's more than that say that but I know it's more than that now it's modeling and all that but now it's modeling and all that but now it's modeling and all that but that's a really that hit me very that's a really that hit me very that's a really that hit me very poignant as a because I'm not I'm not an poignant as a because I'm not I'm not an poignant as a because I'm not I'm not an MBA I'm not a sophisticated you know MBA I'm not a sophisticated you know MBA I'm not a sophisticated you know startup founder in that respect But I startup founder in that respect But I startup founder in that respect But I did know my numbers and I do know what did know my numbers and I do know what did know my numbers and I do know what forecasting is and means. So thought forecasting is and means. So thought forecasting is and means. So thought that was a nice way to explain it. that was a nice way to explain it. that was a nice way to explain it. All right. Follow up from Noah Brag. He All right. Follow up from Noah Brag. He All right. Follow up from Noah Brag. He says, "At what point do you think you says, "At what point do you think you says, "At what point do you think you will be to the growth stage with will be to the growth stage with will be to the growth stage with Summit?" Summit?" Summit?" Oh, man. Um, Oh, man. Um, Oh, man. Um, hard to predict, huh? hard to predict, huh? hard to predict, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way I the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way I the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way I the way I look at the business is a I'm way I look at the business is a I'm way I look at the business is a I'm trying to build and I talk about this on trying to build and I talk about this on trying to build and I talk about this on the podcast. I'm trying to build a the podcast. I'm trying to build a the podcast. I'm trying to build a company that is essentially a series of company that is essentially a series of company that is essentially a series of of processes, right? And what I mean by of processes, right? And what I mean by of processes, right? And what I mean by that is the process of bringing on a new that is the process of bringing on a new that is the process of bringing on a new user, user, user, onboarding them, getting them into the onboarding them, getting them into the onboarding them, getting them into the product, getting them to activate. We we product, getting them to activate. We we product, getting them to activate. We we know the steps, right? The the pirate know the steps, right? The the pirate know the steps, right? The the pirate metrics, if you will, the R, but you metrics, if you will, the R, but you metrics, if you will, the R, but you know, there's that kind of classic know, there's that kind of classic know, there's that kind of classic funnel. But now we're learning, oh, funnel. But now we're learning, oh, funnel. But now we're learning, oh, they're not not just linear funnels.

they're not not just linear funnels. they're not not just linear funnels. actually like once people are really actually like once people are really actually like once people are really excited and using the product like excited and using the product like excited and using the product like there's upsells and referrals and it's there's upsells and referrals and it's there's upsells and referrals and it's it's a whole loop to answer the question it's a whole loop to answer the question it's a whole loop to answer the question then using that framework I think it'd then using that framework I think it'd then using that framework I think it'd be more about um be more about um be more about um when will kind of the whole diagram of when will kind of the whole diagram of when will kind of the whole diagram of the business be complete enough where the business be complete enough where the business be complete enough where growing one part of it is actually where growing one part of it is actually where growing one part of it is actually where the next that's the next high leverage the next that's the next high leverage the next that's the next high leverage point, right? Because if you, you know, point, right? Because if you, you know, point, right? Because if you, you know, if you have a funnel and there there's if you have a funnel and there there's if you have a funnel and there there's giant holes in it, growth really giant holes in it, growth really giant holes in it, growth really hopefully means just fixing the the hopefully means just fixing the the hopefully means just fixing the the giant holes like completing the bucket giant holes like completing the bucket giant holes like completing the bucket in the first place or completing the in the first place or completing the in the first place or completing the diagram. I think it really comes down to diagram. I think it really comes down to diagram. I think it really comes down to when is that initial when is that initial when is that initial uh loop or when is that initial um uh uh loop or when is that initial um uh uh loop or when is that initial um uh diagram complete so that you can go, diagram complete so that you can go, diagram complete so that you can go, okay, everything's at least a one, not a okay, everything's at least a one, not a okay, everything's at least a one, not a zero. You know, we have conversions, we zero. You know, we have conversions, we zero. You know, we have conversions, we have this, we have this, we have this. have this, we have this, we have this. have this, we have this, we have this. Now, we're going to focus on growth. Now, we're going to focus on growth. Now, we're going to focus on growth. Well, where's the where's the Well, where's the where's the Well, where's the where's the bottleneck? Where are the constraints? bottleneck? Where are the constraints? bottleneck? Where are the constraints? And like that to me is the definition of And like that to me is the definition of And like that to me is the definition of growth phase. It's when you realize growth phase. It's when you realize growth phase. It's when you realize we're not just turning things on for the we're not just turning things on for the we're not just turning things on for the first time, which is what a founder first time, which is what a founder first time, which is what a founder does. We're we're growing them from a does. We're we're growing them from a does. We're we're growing them from a one to a five to a 10 to 100, right? And one to a five to a 10 to 100, right? And one to a five to a 10 to 100, right? And I'm not there yet. I've still got zeros I'm not there yet. I've still got zeros I'm not there yet. I've still got zeros in several places that I need to fix.

in several places that I need to fix. in several places that I need to fix. So, right. Um So, right. Um So, right. Um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Next year sometimes hope. Next year sometimes hope. Next year sometimes hope. Yeah. And and that's the thing to think Yeah. And and that's the thing to think Yeah. And and that's the thing to think about is like in this early stage about is like in this early stage about is like in this early stage typically it's whether you believe that typically it's whether you believe that typically it's whether you believe that pre that product market fit is a thing pre that product market fit is a thing pre that product market fit is a thing or exists or whatever there is a moment or exists or whatever there is a moment or exists or whatever there is a moment where you kind of have a product that where you kind of have a product that where you kind of have a product that really starts resonating with people and really starts resonating with people and really starts resonating with people and that people are really anxious to pay that people are really anxious to pay that people are really anxious to pay for even if it's a small subset before for even if it's a small subset before for even if it's a small subset before that point before product market fit that point before product market fit that point before product market fit it is a lot of what you're saying which it is a lot of what you're saying which it is a lot of what you're saying which is fixing leaks in the bucket. It's is fixing leaks in the bucket. It's is fixing leaks in the bucket. It's looking at a funnel and saying, "Oof, looking at a funnel and saying, "Oof, looking at a funnel and saying, "Oof, that number is not it's not there." And that number is not it's not there." And that number is not it's not there." And you need to drive just enough traffic so you need to drive just enough traffic so you need to drive just enough traffic so that you can tell where the leaks are, that you can tell where the leaks are, that you can tell where the leaks are, but really no more because you don't but really no more because you don't but really no more because you don't want to burn people out on your product want to burn people out on your product want to burn people out on your product and be like, "Ah, you know, Summit is and be like, "Ah, you know, Summit is and be like, "Ah, you know, Summit is like, it's not that great that or like, it's not that great that or like, it's not that great that or whatever." You know, you don't want that whatever." You know, you don't want that whatever." You know, you don't want that to be in people's head. I mean, I know to be in people's head. I mean, I know to be in people's head. I mean, I know that the age-old thing of, hey, if that the age-old thing of, hey, if that the age-old thing of, hey, if you're not embarrassed by your your MVP you're not embarrassed by your your MVP you're not embarrassed by your your MVP or your first version, then you launch or your first version, then you launch or your first version, then you launch too late. too late. too late. Yes and no. Like there there's Yes and no. Like there there's Yes and no. Like there there's you know what I mean? Like there's you know what I mean? Like there's you know what I mean? Like there's trade-offs to for sure. I think the trade-offs to for sure. I think the trade-offs to for sure. I think the thing that people, you know, it's not thing that people, you know, it's not thing that people, you know, it's not the next feature, but it is the minimal the next feature, but it is the minimal the next feature, but it is the minimal set of features plural, right? And it's set of features plural, right? And it's set of features plural, right? And it's like summit doesn't integrate with like summit doesn't integrate with like summit doesn't integrate with accounting systems yet. Wait, it's a accounting systems yet. Wait, it's a accounting systems yet. Wait, it's a financial modeling product that doesn't financial modeling product that doesn't financial modeling product that doesn't integrate with QuickBooks or Zero. Like integrate with QuickBooks or Zero. Like integrate with QuickBooks or Zero. Like people are using it, but they're almost people are using it, but they're almost people are using it, but they're almost swimming against the stream, right? Like swimming against the stream, right? Like swimming against the stream, right? Like which is a good sign. People are willing which is a good sign. People are willing which is a good sign. People are willing to use it even though it's missing this to use it even though it's missing this to use it even though it's missing this giant thing. So part of me goes, "Well, giant thing. So part of me goes, "Well, giant thing. So part of me goes, "Well, once I have that, then there's a lot once I have that, then there's a lot once I have that, then there's a lot more confidence that the wheel is more confidence that the wheel is more confidence that the wheel is complete. You know, the circle's complete. You know, the circle's complete. You know, the circle's complete and you can you can focus on complete and you can you can focus on complete and you can you can focus on growth." Until you have that. Yeah.

growth." Until you have that. Yeah. growth." Until you have that. Yeah. People show up and they're like, "Well, People show up and they're like, "Well, People show up and they're like, "Well, how do I integrate my blank?" Oh, you how do I integrate my blank?" Oh, you how do I integrate my blank?" Oh, you can't. Oh, okay. Well, when are you can't. Oh, okay. Well, when are you can't. Oh, okay. Well, when are you going to have that? And that's how you going to have that? And that's how you going to have that? And that's how you know it's not maybe ready yet is people know it's not maybe ready yet is people know it's not maybe ready yet is people are asking you for the missing thing and are asking you for the missing thing and are asking you for the missing thing and it's so obvious that you should have it, it's so obvious that you should have it, it's so obvious that you should have it, but you don't yet. So, but you don't yet. So, but you don't yet. So, yeah. All right. Next question. This one yeah. All right. Next question. This one yeah. All right. Next question. This one is from Tmaine Tyler and it's a little is from Tmaine Tyler and it's a little is from Tmaine Tyler and it's a little bit of a long one so follow me on this. bit of a long one so follow me on this. bit of a long one so follow me on this. He says, "My product is a social He says, "My product is a social He says, "My product is a social internet software sort of like micro I'm internet software sort of like micro I'm internet software sort of like micro I'm sorry, Microsoft Teams sorry, Microsoft Teams sorry, Microsoft Teams Facebook." Microsoft Teams Facebook Facebook." Microsoft Teams Facebook Facebook." Microsoft Teams Facebook combined. Okay. So, but it's obviously combined. Okay. So, but it's obviously combined. Okay. So, but it's obviously seems like it's B2B. Uh, a lot of my seems like it's B2B. Uh, a lot of my seems like it's B2B. Uh, a lot of my competitors make it very difficult for competitors make it very difficult for competitors make it very difficult for their customers to sign up. Do not give their customers to sign up. Do not give their customers to sign up. Do not give free trials or premium. You have to fill free trials or premium. You have to fill free trials or premium. You have to fill out a form for a demo to get signed up. out a form for a demo to get signed up. out a form for a demo to get signed up. Sounds like enterprise software. Is Sounds like enterprise software. Is Sounds like enterprise software. Is there some sort of hidden advantage to there some sort of hidden advantage to there some sort of hidden advantage to being difficult to get started with? Is being difficult to get started with? Is being difficult to get started with? Is there an advantage to weeding people out there an advantage to weeding people out there an advantage to weeding people out or what exactly is the goal there? or what exactly is the goal there? or what exactly is the goal there? Yeah, the I mean there there are Yeah, the I mean there there are Yeah, the I mean there there are trade-offs, right? Um the I mean the trade-offs, right? Um the I mean the trade-offs, right? Um the I mean the famous the famous you know famous the famous you know famous the famous you know original play in this space was Yammer original play in this space was Yammer original play in this space was Yammer which was a David Saxs company who they which was a David Saxs company who they which was a David Saxs company who they got acquired for a billion dollars by I got acquired for a billion dollars by I got acquired for a billion dollars by I forget who but uh Yammer um David Scott forget who but uh Yammer um David Scott forget who but uh Yammer um David Scott I think was the investor but anyway they I think was the investor but anyway they I think was the investor but anyway they they uh they built they did social for they uh they built they did social for they uh they built they did social for for enterprise and you know people were for enterprise and you know people were for enterprise and you know people were signing up for it. It was essentially signing up for it. It was essentially signing up for it. It was essentially like an internal Twitter. Um, so if you like an internal Twitter. Um, so if you like an internal Twitter. Um, so if you haven't looked at them, I would. But it haven't looked at them, I would. But it haven't looked at them, I would. But it was definitely a premium play and it was was definitely a premium play and it was was definitely a premium play and it was the this was like 2005 six7 somewhere in

the this was like 2005 six7 somewhere in the this was like 2005 six7 somewhere in there or the advent of fremium like in there or the advent of fremium like in there or the advent of fremium like in the early days and everyone was like, the early days and everyone was like, the early days and everyone was like, "Oh my gosh, look at this bottoms up "Oh my gosh, look at this bottoms up "Oh my gosh, look at this bottoms up adoption that they're getting." Like 500 adoption that they're getting." Like 500 adoption that they're getting." Like 500 people at Microsoft have signed up for people at Microsoft have signed up for people at Microsoft have signed up for this Yammer thing and they're all using this Yammer thing and they're all using this Yammer thing and they're all using it. to now to get it under control, it. to now to get it under control, it. to now to get it under control, corporate needs to buy an enterprise corporate needs to buy an enterprise corporate needs to buy an enterprise license to essentially make sure the license to essentially make sure the license to essentially make sure the network's being managed properly, that network's being managed properly, that network's being managed properly, that you know you're you know what's being you know you're you know what's being you know you're you know what's being said, you know it's being shared, like said, you know it's being shared, like said, you know it's being shared, like all of those enterprise features. And so all of those enterprise features. And so all of those enterprise features. And so in that sense, like a so anything social in that sense, like a so anything social in that sense, like a so anything social like a Slack or a Yammer or one of those like a Slack or a Yammer or one of those like a Slack or a Yammer or one of those tools, I think really helps you get that tools, I think really helps you get that tools, I think really helps you get that enterprise deal at least if that's your enterprise deal at least if that's your enterprise deal at least if that's your pitch. like, hey, you can't just have pitch. like, hey, you can't just have pitch. like, hey, you can't just have this thing growing like a weed this thing growing like a weed this thing growing like a weed internally. Like, you need to get this internally. Like, you need to get this internally. Like, you need to get this under control. Do you know what files under control. Do you know what files under control. Do you know what files are being put out there on the social are being put out there on the social are being put out there on the social internal social network? But, um, the internal social network? But, um, the internal social network? But, um, the drawback is, you know, you got to do a drawback is, you know, you got to do a drawback is, you know, you got to do a lot better, uh, lead qualification and lot better, uh, lead qualification and lot better, uh, lead qualification and farming of those, right? You got to get farming of those, right? You got to get farming of those, right? You got to get good at looking through, you know, I've good at looking through, you know, I've good at looking through, you know, I've had 2,00 So, I'm a, you know, summit is had 2,00 So, I'm a, you know, summit is had 2,00 So, I'm a, you know, summit is premium. I've had 2,000 signups since premium. I've had 2,000 signups since premium. I've had 2,000 signups since July 6, I want to say. Um, well, 2,000 July 6, I want to say. Um, well, 2,000 July 6, I want to say. Um, well, 2,000 registered users means I can't I can't registered users means I can't I can't registered users means I can't I can't manually go through those anymore and manually go through those anymore and manually go through those anymore and and sell them, right? Like I now the and sell them, right? Like I now the and sell them, right? Like I now the trade-off is now I have to invest in trade-off is now I have to invest in trade-off is now I have to invest in product analytics and engagement product analytics and engagement product analytics and engagement analytics to figure out you have to do analytics to figure out you have to do analytics to figure out you have to do product qualified leads. So maybe I product qualified leads. So maybe I product qualified leads. So maybe I would I would summarize by saying the would I would summarize by saying the would I would summarize by saying the trade-off is now you need to do product trade-off is now you need to do product trade-off is now you need to do product qualified leads. The advantage of being qualified leads. The advantage of being qualified leads. The advantage of being high friction is you're not doing high friction is you're not doing high friction is you're not doing product qualified leads, you're doing

product qualified leads, you're doing product qualified leads, you're doing sales qualified. So you're having those sales qualified. So you're having those sales qualified. So you're having those conversations and making sure that conversations and making sure that conversations and making sure that people are a good fit and all that people are a good fit and all that people are a good fit and all that stuff. So I think the question just stuff. So I think the question just stuff. So I think the question just becomes like when do you want to eat becomes like when do you want to eat becomes like when do you want to eat that cost of qualification? Are you okay that cost of qualification? Are you okay that cost of qualification? Are you okay delaying it and doing it in product or delaying it and doing it in product or delaying it and doing it in product or do you need that feedback and those do you need that feedback and those do you need that feedback and those conversations first of all because they conversations first of all because they conversations first of all because they might be a gold mine of of insights but might be a gold mine of of insights but might be a gold mine of of insights but second of all you don't have the second of all you don't have the second of all you don't have the resources to support all those people or resources to support all those people or resources to support all those people or you know you don't want to waste you you know you don't want to waste you you know you don't want to waste you don't have the product analytics in don't have the product analytics in don't have the product analytics in place to really know who's qualified place to really know who's qualified place to really know who's qualified without a conversation like just think without a conversation like just think without a conversation like just think through how you're going to qualify through how you're going to qualify through how you're going to qualify people I think would be my way of making people I think would be my way of making people I think would be my way of making that decision and um yeah I you know that decision and um yeah I you know that decision and um yeah I you know hopefully it grows goes like crazy. hopefully it grows goes like crazy. hopefully it grows goes like crazy. Either way, you're okay. You know, rapid Either way, you're okay. You know, rapid Either way, you're okay. You know, rapid adoption of a product like that will adoption of a product like that will adoption of a product like that will cover a multitude of sins. So, so, uh, cover a multitude of sins. So, so, uh, cover a multitude of sins. So, so, uh, good luck. good luck. good luck. Yeah. So, people were chiming in saying Yeah. So, people were chiming in saying Yeah. So, people were chiming in saying Microsoft acquired Yammer. So, Microsoft acquired Yammer. So, Microsoft acquired Yammer. So, yeah, you're right. It was, uh, years yeah, you're right. It was, uh, years yeah, you're right. It was, uh, years ago for 1.2 billion. Um, one thought on ago for 1.2 billion. Um, one thought on ago for 1.2 billion. Um, one thought on that and then I want to I want to ask a that and then I want to I want to ask a that and then I want to I want to ask a follow-up to it is um I see that if if follow-up to it is um I see that if if follow-up to it is um I see that if if your competitors are all not listing your competitors are all not listing your competitors are all not listing pricing and gating and doing the pricing and gating and doing the pricing and gating and doing the enterprise, you know, sales process, enterprise, you know, sales process, enterprise, you know, sales process, that's either that's either that's either an opportunity for you to do the an opportunity for you to do the an opportunity for you to do the opposite or it's a trap to do the opposite or it's a trap to do the opposite or it's a trap to do the opposite and they've already tried it.

opposite and they've already tried it. opposite and they've already tried it. And that's what I would try to figure And that's what I would try to figure And that's what I would try to figure out is sometimes like I've tried to be out is sometimes like I've tried to be out is sometimes like I've tried to be you know you can be too clever you know you can be too clever you know you can be too clever and I've tried to do that before where and I've tried to do that before where and I've tried to do that before where I'm gonna zigg when they're zagging and I'm gonna zigg when they're zagging and I'm gonna zigg when they're zagging and I just I ate and it was the wrong I just I ate and it was the wrong I just I ate and it was the wrong way to do it and they had tried it way to do it and they had tried it way to do it and they had tried it before. So if you can figure out, you before. So if you can figure out, you before. So if you can figure out, you know, if they've already tried it and if know, if they've already tried it and if know, if they've already tried it and if there's a reason. Now, a lot of times there's a reason. Now, a lot of times there's a reason. Now, a lot of times people raise buck bucket loads of people raise buck bucket loads of people raise buck bucket loads of venture capital and they have to go up venture capital and they have to go up venture capital and they have to go up market because now they have to get market because now they have to get market because now they have to get really big really fast. And if you're a really big really fast. And if you're a really big really fast. And if you're a bootstrapper and you want to get to 10K, bootstrapper and you want to get to 10K, bootstrapper and you want to get to 10K, 50K a month, whatever, there may be a 50K a month, whatever, there may be a 50K a month, whatever, there may be a really nice opportunity for you. But really nice opportunity for you. But really nice opportunity for you. But that's that's that's you know what's fun? Internet wayback you know what's fun? Internet wayback you know what's fun? Internet wayback machine is your friend. So load up machine is your friend. So load up machine is your friend. So load up somebody else in that space and look at somebody else in that space and look at somebody else in that space and look at their marketing and pricing pages and their marketing and pricing pages and their marketing and pricing pages and how they've evolved and you'll be able how they've evolved and you'll be able how they've evolved and you'll be able to tell if they ever tried what you're to tell if they ever tried what you're to tell if they ever tried what you're thinking about and you know oh after thinking about and you know oh after thinking about and you know oh after they raised a bunch of money they went they raised a bunch of money they went they raised a bunch of money they went to what they're doing now like you can to what they're doing now like you can to what they're doing now like you can almost find a correlation. Internet way almost find a correlation. Internet way almost find a correlation. Internet way machine I think is an underused asset machine I think is an underused asset machine I think is an underused asset for that kind of stuff zigging and for that kind of stuff zigging and for that kind of stuff zigging and zagging you know. zagging you know. zagging you know. Yep. And here's another pro, this is a Yep. And here's another pro, this is a Yep. And here's another pro, this is a pro tip just between you and me, Matt, pro tip just between you and me, Matt, pro tip just between you and me, Matt, because uh nobody else is listening, but because uh nobody else is listening, but because uh nobody else is listening, but so something I did back in the day, I so something I did back in the day, I so something I did back in the day, I was trying to figure out how to improve was trying to figure out how to improve was trying to figure out how to improve our sales process with Drip. And so I our sales process with Drip. And so I our sales process with Drip. And so I found like three or four sales ex found like three or four sales ex found like three or four sales ex salespeople from big competitors of salespeople from big competitors of salespeople from big competitors of ours, let's say Marquetto or Infusionoft ours, let's say Marquetto or Infusionoft ours, let's say Marquetto or Infusionoft or Parardot, and they were big marketing or Parardot, and they were big marketing or Parardot, and they were big marketing automation, and they were used to be automation, and they were used to be automation, and they were used to be sales people for them and no longer sales people for them and no longer sales people for them and no longer were. and I messaged him on LinkedIn and were. and I messaged him on LinkedIn and were. and I messaged him on LinkedIn and I said, I said, I said, "I run this company. You know, it "I run this company. You know, it "I run this company. You know, it competes with your former employer. I'm competes with your former employer. I'm competes with your former employer. I'm I just have like 30 minutes of your time I just have like 30 minutes of your time I just have like 30 minutes of your time um to just ask questions." Every I um to just ask questions." Every I um to just ask questions." Every I figured I'd get like a one out of 10.

figured I'd get like a one out of 10. figured I'd get like a one out of 10. Every one of them scheduled a call with Every one of them scheduled a call with Every one of them scheduled a call with me because they're sales people and they me because they're sales people and they me because they're sales people and they want to talk. And then at the end, some want to talk. And then at the end, some want to talk. And then at the end, some of them were like, "Hey, maybe I might of them were like, "Hey, maybe I might of them were like, "Hey, maybe I might want to work for you later." Or they want to work for you later." Or they want to work for you later." Or they were all like networking, right? Sales were all like networking, right? Sales were all like networking, right? Sales people are good at. So I offered to people are good at. So I offered to people are good at. So I offered to compensate like, "Hey, I'll compensate compensate like, "Hey, I'll compensate compensate like, "Hey, I'll compensate you as a consultant if you want." None you as a consultant if you want." None you as a consultant if you want." None of them took me up on it. And they and I of them took me up on it. And they and I of them took me up on it. And they and I one guy walked me through the entire one guy walked me through the entire one guy walked me through the entire he's like within he's like within he's like within 15 minutes of a lead submitting their 15 minutes of a lead submitting their 15 minutes of a lead submitting their form like we would be on the phone form like we would be on the phone form like we would be on the phone calling them like they were warmly and calling them like they were warmly and calling them like they were warmly and so he talked walked me through this so he talked walked me through this so he talked walked me through this whole thing and I learned a bunch about whole thing and I learned a bunch about whole thing and I learned a bunch about affiliates and how they were using them affiliates and how they were using them affiliates and how they were using them and blah blah blah. So that's another and blah blah blah. So that's another and blah blah blah. So that's another thing you can do if the wayback machine thing you can do if the wayback machine thing you can do if the wayback machine doesn't work for that competitor in doesn't work for that competitor in doesn't work for that competitor in particular. That's great. particular. That's great. particular. That's great. Is there anyone who doesn't work for him Is there anyone who doesn't work for him Is there anyone who doesn't work for him anymore? You know anymore? You know anymore? You know that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Good hack. that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Good hack. that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Good hack. All right. Hope that was helpful Tmaine. All right. Hope that was helpful Tmaine. All right. Hope that was helpful Tmaine. Feel free to ask a followup uh if you Feel free to ask a followup uh if you Feel free to ask a followup uh if you have one. Okay. So, this is this one have one. Okay. So, this is this one have one. Okay. So, this is this one from Pablo Fernandez. I don't have any from Pablo Fernandez. I don't have any from Pablo Fernandez. I don't have any insight into this, Matt, so feel free um insight into this, Matt, so feel free um insight into this, Matt, so feel free um if if you don't either, but he says, if if you don't either, but he says, if if you don't either, but he says, "How do you think non-American startups "How do you think non-American startups "How do you think non-American startups should forecast currency fluctuations if should forecast currency fluctuations if should forecast currency fluctuations if most companies are in the US are in the most companies are in the US are in the most companies are in the US are in the US paying in dollars?"

Yeah, that's I have um I have thought Yeah, that's I have um I have thought about it in and currency is a setting in about it in and currency is a setting in about it in and currency is a setting in summit for financial modeling. Um and I summit for financial modeling. Um and I summit for financial modeling. Um and I remember putting in the exchange rates remember putting in the exchange rates remember putting in the exchange rates for that and people can set but then you for that and people can set but then you for that and people can set but then you know there's extra complication of okay know there's extra complication of okay know there's extra complication of okay now I'm ingesting stripe data every now I'm ingesting stripe data every now I'm ingesting stripe data every payout has its own current. So I have payout has its own current. So I have payout has its own current. So I have I've definitely thought about this and I've definitely thought about this and I've definitely thought about this and actually risk pulse was a risk factors actually risk pulse was a risk factors actually risk pulse was a risk factors company. So currency risk quick way to company. So currency risk quick way to company. So currency risk quick way to think about risk in general is think about risk in general is think about risk in general is risks you can control and risks you risks you can control and risks you risks you can control and risks you can't and then um you know risk that are can't and then um you know risk that are can't and then um you know risk that are external or internal. And so if you want external or internal. And so if you want external or internal. And so if you want to do the classic kind of consultant to do the classic kind of consultant to do the classic kind of consultant quadrant thing, there's internal risks quadrant thing, there's internal risks quadrant thing, there's internal risks you can control. Then there's internal you can control. Then there's internal you can control. Then there's internal risks you can't, right? So the second risks you can't, right? So the second risks you can't, right? So the second one is like the entire office comes down one is like the entire office comes down one is like the entire office comes down with mono, right? Like can't really with mono, right? Like can't really with mono, right? Like can't really control it. You can try to mitigate it. control it. You can try to mitigate it. control it. You can try to mitigate it. It's internal. It's not going to fight It's internal. It's not going to fight It's internal. It's not going to fight other companies. Currency risk is other companies. Currency risk is other companies. Currency risk is external risk that you cannot control. external risk that you cannot control. external risk that you cannot control. You have no ability to control that. So You have no ability to control that. So You have no ability to control that. So the best thing you can do, but you can the best thing you can do, but you can the best thing you can do, but you can predict it like it's a it's a thing predict it like it's a it's a thing predict it like it's a it's a thing that's known about. This is not like that's known about. This is not like that's known about. This is not like completely unpredictable. So I think completely unpredictable. So I think completely unpredictable. So I think what you'd want to do I mean this is and what you'd want to do I mean this is and what you'd want to do I mean this is and this is super dangerous right because this is super dangerous right because this is super dangerous right because there is no precedent for hyperinflation there is no precedent for hyperinflation there is no precedent for hyperinflation per se like there is but the question is per se like there is but the question is per se like there is but the question is like how paranoid do you want to be is like how paranoid do you want to be is like how paranoid do you want to be is sort of the initial gut check and in sort of the initial gut check and in sort of the initial gut check and in that case you'd want to look at they're that case you'd want to look at they're that case you'd want to look at they're paying in dollars well if dollars are paying in dollars well if dollars are paying in dollars well if dollars are strong that's a good thing for you strong that's a good thing for you strong that's a good thing for you because the exchange rate is going to be because the exchange rate is going to be because the exchange rate is going to be in your favor right and you're paying in your favor right and you're paying in your favor right and you're paying people locally right so that's a good

people locally right so that's a good people locally right so that's a good thing I think what you'd want to do is thing I think what you'd want to do is thing I think what you'd want to do is just look at I mean look at the future just look at I mean look at the future just look at I mean look at the future and look at history and ask yourself and look at history and ask yourself and look at history and ask yourself like what level of how much risk can you like what level of how much risk can you like what level of how much risk can you stomach as a founder and and know that stomach as a founder and and know that stomach as a founder and and know that you will not be able to predict this you will not be able to predict this you will not be able to predict this thing when it happens. It could be a thing when it happens. It could be a thing when it happens. It could be a week from now. So knowing you can't time week from now. So knowing you can't time week from now. So knowing you can't time it, how much risk can you stomach? And it, how much risk can you stomach? And it, how much risk can you stomach? And gez, when you do that, it actually gez, when you do that, it actually gez, when you do that, it actually sounds a lot like, you know, what's your sounds a lot like, you know, what's your sounds a lot like, you know, what's your approach to investing in public equities approach to investing in public equities approach to investing in public equities like or Bitcoin, like how do you feel like or Bitcoin, like how do you feel like or Bitcoin, like how do you feel about those things, right? And you can about those things, right? And you can about those things, right? And you can almost look at that and say, and I don't almost look at that and say, and I don't almost look at that and say, and I don't know how much control you have, but if know how much control you have, but if know how much control you have, but if you're a bootstrapper, personal and you're a bootstrapper, personal and you're a bootstrapper, personal and private are pretty mixed. Like I would private are pretty mixed. Like I would private are pretty mixed. Like I would almost take the same sort of gut check almost take the same sort of gut check almost take the same sort of gut check there and say, "Yeah, I really don't do there and say, "Yeah, I really don't do there and say, "Yeah, I really don't do well with a sudden dramatic drop in my well with a sudden dramatic drop in my well with a sudden dramatic drop in my in that, right? I to sleep well at in that, right? I to sleep well at in that, right? I to sleep well at night, I need X." Right? And then maybe night, I need X." Right? And then maybe night, I need X." Right? And then maybe that maybe that then can relate back to that maybe that then can relate back to that maybe that then can relate back to something you've done before and then something you've done before and then something you've done before and then the rest is you know no one in the world the rest is you know no one in the world the rest is you know no one in the world can can do the rest of the homework can can do the rest of the homework can can do the rest of the homework assignment which is like now predict assignment which is like now predict assignment which is like now predict what it's going to be. I don't know you what it's going to be. I don't know you what it's going to be. I don't know you know know know it's tough.

it's tough. it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. I think this ties into a Yeah. Yeah. I think this ties into a Yeah. Yeah. I think this ties into a conversation I was having with uh in conversation I was having with uh in conversation I was having with uh in tiny seed slack with some founders. tiny seed slack with some founders. tiny seed slack with some founders. Someone said how many months of Someone said how many months of Someone said how many months of payroll or how many months of of company payroll or how many months of of company payroll or how many months of of company expenses do you keep in the bank? you expenses do you keep in the bank? you expenses do you keep in the bank? you know, should I? The question was, how know, should I? The question was, how know, should I? The question was, how much should I? And the answer, of much should I? And the answer, of much should I? And the answer, of course, is it depends a little bit like course, is it depends a little bit like course, is it depends a little bit like you're saying, depends a little bit on you're saying, depends a little bit on you're saying, depends a little bit on your risk tolerance. And I was thrown your risk tolerance. And I was thrown your risk tolerance. And I was thrown out like I think two months is like out like I think two months is like out like I think two months is like that's pretty tight and scary for me. that's pretty tight and scary for me. that's pretty tight and scary for me. And 6 months starts to feel like that's And 6 months starts to feel like that's And 6 months starts to feel like that's a hell of a lot. Like as a SAS app, a hell of a lot. Like as a SAS app, a hell of a lot. Like as a SAS app, 6 months of all expenses. Like we would 6 months of all expenses. Like we would 6 months of all expenses. Like we would have to hit a a depression, you know, have to hit a a depression, you know, have to hit a a depression, you know, for you to to need truly need six for you to to need truly need six for you to to need truly need six months. So somewhere out there, but months. So somewhere out there, but months. So somewhere out there, but someone said like I have 18 months of of someone said like I have 18 months of of someone said like I have 18 months of of my monthly expenses. and it's like okay my monthly expenses. and it's like okay my monthly expenses. and it's like okay so that's where you want to start so that's where you want to start so that's where you want to start reinvesting you know whether it's in reinvesting you know whether it's in reinvesting you know whether it's in hiring or whether it's in more ads or a hiring or whether it's in more ads or a hiring or whether it's in more ads or a developer or whatever um but it does it developer or whatever um but it does it developer or whatever um but it does it depends but there's a reasonable range depends but there's a reasonable range depends but there's a reasonable range right it's not the range is not one to right it's not the range is not one to right it's not the range is not one to 20 months it's probably 20 months it's probably 20 months it's probably two or three up to I'd say six and if two or three up to I'd say six and if two or three up to I'd say six and if you're venture funded it's different you're venture funded it's different you're venture funded it's different story but bootstrap mostly bootstrap story but bootstrap mostly bootstrap story but bootstrap mostly bootstrap just just just yep yep yep all right so I actually have a question all right so I actually have a question all right so I actually have a question for you about if you're still in for you about if you're still in for you about if you're still in microphone on air channel you know, feel microphone on air channel you know, feel microphone on air channel you know, feel free to toss another one in. It's about free to toss another one in. It's about free to toss another one in. It's about fremium and because this is a question fremium and because this is a question fremium and because this is a question that comes up a lot. Should I try that comes up a lot. Should I try that comes up a lot. Should I try Fremium? Does Fremium work? And of Fremium? Does Fremium work? And of Fremium? Does Fremium work? And of course, we know it depends. It works in course, we know it depends. It works in course, we know it depends. It works in certain instances and and there are certain instances and and there are certain instances and and there are certain criteria and such. You've certain criteria and such. You've certain criteria and such. You've basically had a free plan, I believe, basically had a free plan, I believe, basically had a free plan, I believe, since since you launched and you still since since you launched and you still since since you launched and you still do, but you've made a lot of adjustments do, but you've made a lot of adjustments do, but you've made a lot of adjustments to it and you've moved the free line to it and you've moved the free line to it and you've moved the free line around. Do you have any like, you know,

around. Do you have any like, you know, around. Do you have any like, you know, nice learnings that you've had from nice learnings that you've had from nice learnings that you've had from that? You've now had two products with that? You've now had two products with that? You've now had two products with premium plans to be honest because Risk premium plans to be honest because Risk premium plans to be honest because Risk Pulse was free for a while with no paid Pulse was free for a while with no paid Pulse was free for a while with no paid plan than you implemented in a fresh plan than you implemented in a fresh plan than you implemented in a fresh paid plan, paid plan, paid plan, you know. you know. you know. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Yeah. Yeah. Um, Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I I think the reason to go free at so I I think the reason to go free at so I I think the reason to go free at the beginning and this could be an early the beginning and this could be an early the beginning and this could be an early access. Let's say you're in early access. Let's say you're in early access. Let's say you're in early access. I I access. I I access. I I let me just talk about how I how I've let me just talk about how I how I've let me just talk about how I how I've operated and I've I've learned operated and I've I've learned operated and I've I've learned basically. So this is not gospel and we basically. So this is not gospel and we basically. So this is not gospel and we we know this, right? But just want to we know this, right? But just want to we know this, right? But just want to preface that anyway. The reason I like preface that anyway. The reason I like preface that anyway. The reason I like free at the beginning is because it free at the beginning is because it free at the beginning is because it allows me to not put a artificial allows me to not put a artificial allows me to not put a artificial governor or throttle on learnings or governor or throttle on learnings or governor or throttle on learnings or insights. You know, I know that I need insights. You know, I know that I need insights. You know, I know that I need feedback from as many people as possible feedback from as many people as possible feedback from as many people as possible to make this product incredible and to to make this product incredible and to to make this product incredible and to serve to figure out who my segment is, serve to figure out who my segment is, serve to figure out who my segment is, who am I even serving? Like how what is who am I even serving? Like how what is who am I even serving? Like how what is the opposite of premium, right? Or free. the opposite of premium, right? Or free. the opposite of premium, right? Or free. It's having a price. Well, how do you It's having a price. Well, how do you It's having a price. Well, how do you have a price? Well, you know your value. have a price? Well, you know your value. have a price? Well, you know your value. How do you know your value? Well, you How do you know your value? Well, you How do you know your value? Well, you got to know who you're serving. Well, got to know who you're serving. Well, got to know who you're serving. Well, how do you know you're ser? So, it's how do you know you're ser? So, it's how do you know you're ser? So, it's kind of this vicious cycle of like in kind of this vicious cycle of like in kind of this vicious cycle of like in the earliest days it's, you know, yeah, the earliest days it's, you know, yeah, the earliest days it's, you know, yeah, I realize you could put a number on it I realize you could put a number on it I realize you could put a number on it and and I think that's probably the the and and I think that's probably the the and and I think that's probably the the fallback positioning is like I know it's fallback positioning is like I know it's fallback positioning is like I know it's not the right number, but I'm going to not the right number, but I'm going to not the right number, but I'm going to put a number on it. Well, then, you put a number on it. Well, then, you put a number on it. Well, then, you know, I could get philosophical and say, know, I could get philosophical and say, know, I could get philosophical and say, what is it? So, my like what are you what is it? So, my like what are you what is it? So, my like what are you putting the number on? Seats. Why? Um, putting the number on? Seats. Why? Um, putting the number on? Seats. Why? Um, so I've always been free in the so I've always been free in the so I've always been free in the beginnings. The with Storm Pulse, we beginnings. The with Storm Pulse, we beginnings. The with Storm Pulse, we were actually free for too long. Um, and were actually free for too long. Um, and were actually free for too long. Um, and our our, you know, our desire to be our our, you know, our desire to be our our, you know, our desire to be free, our appetite for being free, I

free, our appetite for being free, I free, our appetite for being free, I think, exceeded the market size. So, think, exceeded the market size. So, think, exceeded the market size. So, here's a thought experiment. Like, if here's a thought experiment. Like, if here's a thought experiment. Like, if you're doing fremium, as Patrick you're doing fremium, as Patrick you're doing fremium, as Patrick Campbell says, to own the leads, right? Campbell says, to own the leads, right? Campbell says, to own the leads, right? If you now, if you get to the point If you now, if you get to the point If you now, if you get to the point where you own all the leads, where you own all the leads, where you own all the leads, you know, fremium is not really a, you you know, fremium is not really a, you you know, fremium is not really a, you know, doing you much more now, if you know, doing you much more now, if you know, doing you much more now, if you will. Like if if there's only a thousand will. Like if if there's only a thousand will. Like if if there's only a thousand people ever going to buy this product people ever going to buy this product people ever going to buy this product and you have a thousand free users, like and you have a thousand free users, like and you have a thousand free users, like your focus now should be on monetizing your focus now should be on monetizing your focus now should be on monetizing those users, right? Because you've those users, right? Because you've those users, right? Because you've exhausted the market. So it is possible exhausted the market. So it is possible exhausted the market. So it is possible to get ahead of yourself and give too to get ahead of yourself and give too to get ahead of yourself and give too much away and essentially lose that lose much away and essentially lose that lose much away and essentially lose that lose sight of the benefit, which is I want to sight of the benefit, which is I want to sight of the benefit, which is I want to have this really wide funnel and I want have this really wide funnel and I want have this really wide funnel and I want to have the email addresses of to have the email addresses of to have the email addresses of everybody, right? As I like to say everybody, right? As I like to say everybody, right? As I like to say though, like you're always going to have though, like you're always going to have though, like you're always going to have a free plan. So it it might be a a it a free plan. So it it might be a a it a free plan. So it it might be a a it might be a newsletter you're on the hook might be a newsletter you're on the hook might be a newsletter you're on the hook to send every month. It might be a to send every month. It might be a to send every month. It might be a podcast you're producing. It might be we podcast you're producing. It might be we podcast you're producing. It might be we all are giving out free content and all are giving out free content and all are giving out free content and samples all the time. So my approach samples all the time. So my approach samples all the time. So my approach with Summit has been with Summit has been with Summit has been I'd rather work on product than work on I'd rather work on product than work on I'd rather work on product than work on and I do a podcast but I'd rather work and I do a podcast but I'd rather work and I do a podcast but I'd rather work on product than work on you know a on product than work on you know a on product than work on you know a marketing website. These materials these marketing website. These materials these marketing website. These materials these are like I've just chosen that as my are like I've just chosen that as my are like I've just chosen that as my marketing material because I feel like I marketing material because I feel like I marketing material because I feel like I I I'm really comfortable in product and I I'm really comfortable in product and I I'm really comfortable in product and I can deliver a great product experience I can deliver a great product experience I can deliver a great product experience and it's in the same headsp space as the and it's in the same headsp space as the and it's in the same headsp space as the rest of what I'm doing. So I basically rest of what I'm doing. So I basically rest of what I'm doing. So I basically chose product as the free offering as chose product as the free offering as chose product as the free offering as sales. When you have a sales team and

sales. When you have a sales team and sales. When you have a sales team and they're talking to people on the phone, they're talking to people on the phone, they're talking to people on the phone, that is not free. And the marginal cost that is not free. And the marginal cost that is not free. And the marginal cost of a person being on the phone with of a person being on the phone with of a person being on the phone with somebody to try to negotiate a a a deal somebody to try to negotiate a a a deal somebody to try to negotiate a a a deal is very expensive. So when I look at is very expensive. So when I look at is very expensive. So when I look at non-fremium plays, I just remind people non-fremium plays, I just remind people non-fremium plays, I just remind people like if you're a bootstrap and you have like if you're a bootstrap and you have like if you're a bootstrap and you have very limited resources, it's a lot very limited resources, it's a lot very limited resources, it's a lot cheaper to give a little bit of product cheaper to give a little bit of product cheaper to give a little bit of product away for free than to hire a salesperson away for free than to hire a salesperson away for free than to hire a salesperson or even to use your own time. Like just or even to use your own time. Like just or even to use your own time. Like just at least think about that cost structure at least think about that cost structure at least think about that cost structure of like, oh yeah, you're right. This 16 of like, oh yeah, you're right. This 16 of like, oh yeah, you're right. This 16 hours I spent on the phone with sales hours I spent on the phone with sales hours I spent on the phone with sales prospects this week wasn't free, right? prospects this week wasn't free, right? prospects this week wasn't free, right? I gave it away for free, but it cost me I gave it away for free, but it cost me I gave it away for free, but it cost me something. I'd rather have thousands of something. I'd rather have thousands of something. I'd rather have thousands of people or hundreds of people using the people or hundreds of people using the people or hundreds of people using the product and not be in those hightouch product and not be in those hightouch product and not be in those hightouch conversations at least right now as the conversations at least right now as the conversations at least right now as the founder because I just think product is founder because I just think product is founder because I just think product is higher leverage. So all I can say is higher leverage. So all I can say is higher leverage. So all I can say is like realize that in order to get like realize that in order to get like realize that in order to get people's attention in 2020 and 2021 people's attention in 2020 and 2021 people's attention in 2020 and 2021 you're going to give something away for you're going to give something away for you're going to give something away for free if it's not product what is it and free if it's not product what is it and free if it's not product what is it and what is that costing you right and and what is that costing you right and and what is that costing you right and and be honest with yourself like is that be honest with yourself like is that be honest with yourself like is that actually free because it's probably not actually free because it's probably not actually free because it's probably not you know everything costs something. So you know everything costs something. So you know everything costs something. So yeah.

yeah. yeah. Yeah. Very cool, sir. We have one Yeah. Very cool, sir. We have one Yeah. Very cool, sir. We have one question to wrap us up because we're at question to wrap us up because we're at question to wrap us up because we're at time, but it's from Patrick Foley. He time, but it's from Patrick Foley. He time, but it's from Patrick Foley. He says, "Easy plug. What does Summit do? says, "Easy plug. What does Summit do? says, "Easy plug. What does Summit do? At what stage in my business is it for At what stage in my business is it for At what stage in my business is it for me? I don't get the answer to both of me? I don't get the answer to both of me? I don't get the answer to both of these questions from your landing page. these questions from your landing page. these questions from your landing page. Winky face." So Winky face." So Winky face." So I know, I know, I know, I know, I know the new landing page is I know, I know the new landing page is I know, I know the new landing page is coming in in Q1. Um coming in in Q1. Um coming in in Q1. Um as I finish the wheel uh that we talked as I finish the wheel uh that we talked as I finish the wheel uh that we talked about. about. about. So yeah, easy plug. Um, if you've ever So yeah, easy plug. Um, if you've ever So yeah, easy plug. Um, if you've ever sat down and tried to build a financial sat down and tried to build a financial sat down and tried to build a financial forecast for your business in a forecast for your business in a forecast for your business in a spreadsheet and you've experienced the spreadsheet and you've experienced the spreadsheet and you've experienced the the joy of doing that and the benefit, the joy of doing that and the benefit, the joy of doing that and the benefit, which there is, but then you've also which there is, but then you've also which there is, but then you've also experienced the pain and frustrations of experienced the pain and frustrations of experienced the pain and frustrations of having to maintain it, update it, um, or having to maintain it, update it, um, or having to maintain it, update it, um, or even worse, tell somebody else what all even worse, tell somebody else what all even worse, tell somebody else what all the numbers mean, then you understand the numbers mean, then you understand the numbers mean, then you understand where Summit fits in. So, Summit is a where Summit fits in. So, Summit is a where Summit fits in. So, Summit is a replacement for that Google sheet or replacement for that Google sheet or replacement for that Google sheet or that Excel sheet that you would that Excel sheet that you would that Excel sheet that you would otherwise build from scratch. If you otherwise build from scratch. If you otherwise build from scratch. If you have a spreadsheet like that already, have a spreadsheet like that already, have a spreadsheet like that already, I'm happy to look at what you've got and I'm happy to look at what you've got and I'm happy to look at what you've got and try to translate it into the Summit try to translate it into the Summit try to translate it into the Summit world. But really, where I want to help world. But really, where I want to help world. But really, where I want to help founders is get started on that journey founders is get started on that journey founders is get started on that journey of forecasting. And I will say this, the of forecasting. And I will say this, the of forecasting. And I will say this, the more I've thought about it, financial more I've thought about it, financial more I've thought about it, financial modeling properly as a CFO does is a modeling properly as a CFO does is a modeling properly as a CFO does is a significant undertaking. We don't start significant undertaking. We don't start significant undertaking. We don't start there. But you know what you start with?

there. But you know what you start with? there. But you know what you start with? You start with expense forecasting which You start with expense forecasting which You start with expense forecasting which is budgeting. You start with goal is budgeting. You start with goal is budgeting. You start with goal setting which is forecasting. You start setting which is forecasting. You start setting which is forecasting. You start with product management which is with product management which is with product management which is predicting the return on investing in predicting the return on investing in predicting the return on investing in product. So the funny thing is like in product. So the funny thing is like in product. So the funny thing is like in your mind or scenario planning what if your mind or scenario planning what if your mind or scenario planning what if we run out of runway. So I would we run out of runway. So I would we run out of runway. So I would actually say this as a founder you're actually say this as a founder you're actually say this as a founder you're probably forecasting in four ways probably forecasting in four ways probably forecasting in four ways already. Summit is a way of doing that already. Summit is a way of doing that already. Summit is a way of doing that in a product instead of in your head. in a product instead of in your head. in a product instead of in your head. And I'd love for people to try it out. And I'd love for people to try it out. And I'd love for people to try it out. Awesome. Uh we we have another question, Awesome. Uh we we have another question, Awesome. Uh we we have another question, but I'm going to point them to our but I'm going to point them to our but I'm going to point them to our recent conversation on startups with the recent conversation on startups with the recent conversation on startups with the rest of us because um I think it answers rest of us because um I think it answers rest of us because um I think it answers it. But Brendan Andrad says, "When it. But Brendan Andrad says, "When it. But Brendan Andrad says, "When moving from Summit V1 to V2, there was moving from Summit V1 to V2, there was moving from Summit V1 to V2, there was there a key insight that drove you there a key insight that drove you there a key insight that drove you toward a more flexible tool or was it toward a more flexible tool or was it toward a more flexible tool or was it more that you that your refactor led you more that you that your refactor led you more that you that your refactor led you naturally in that direction?" And Matt naturally in that direction?" And Matt naturally in that direction?" And Matt and I dug into that as episode I believe and I dug into that as episode I believe and I dug into that as episode I believe it's 516 of Startup for the rest of us. it's 516 of Startup for the rest of us. it's 516 of Startup for the rest of us. You can just search for Winging uh on You can just search for Winging uh on You can just search for Winging uh on the website. And um Noah Bragg says in the website. And um Noah Bragg says in the website. And um Noah Bragg says in closing, really like how you're thinking closing, really like how you're thinking closing, really like how you're thinking about free plan. New way to think of it about free plan. New way to think of it about free plan. New way to think of it for me. Gotta spend something on for me. Gotta spend something on for me. Gotta spend something on marketing, so might as well be product marketing, so might as well be product marketing, so might as well be product if that's what you're good at.

if that's what you're good at. if that's what you're good at. So sir Matt Wens, thanks so much for So sir Matt Wens, thanks so much for So sir Matt Wens, thanks so much for joining me. Folks want to keep up with joining me. Folks want to keep up with joining me. Folks want to keep up with your Matt Wensing on Twitter and of your Matt Wensing on Twitter and of your Matt Wensing on Twitter and of course use.com. course use.com. course use.com. There's a free plan so you can sign up There's a free plan so you can sign up There's a free plan so you can sign up and check it out if you want to. Thanks and check it out if you want to. Thanks and check it out if you want to. Thanks again. again. again. That's right. Thanks so much. That's right. Thanks so much. That's right. Thanks so much. All right. Thanks for joining me today, All right. Thanks for joining me today, All right. Thanks for joining me today, me and Matt. That was a great me and Matt. That was a great me and Matt. That was a great conversation. conversation. conversation. I'm I'm searching around for my uh I'm I'm searching around for my uh I'm I'm searching around for my uh outro. Oh boy. All right. Too many outro. Oh boy. All right. Too many outro. Oh boy. All right. Too many windows open. Join us next week at 1:00 windows open. Join us next week at 1:00 windows open. Join us next week at 1:00 p.m. Eastern time. Same time, same p.m. Eastern time. Same time, same p.m. Eastern time. Same time, same place. Thank you so much uh for hanging place. Thank you so much uh for hanging place. Thank you so much uh for hanging out and thanks to Base Camp and Hey, and out and thanks to Base Camp and Hey, and out and thanks to Base Camp and Hey, and Stripe, all three of them. They're our Stripe, all three of them. They're our Stripe, all three of them. They're our headline partners for this year with headline partners for this year with headline partners for this year with Microsoft and I look forward to chatting Microsoft and I look forward to chatting Microsoft and I look forward to chatting with you. Oh, won't be next week because with you. Oh, won't be next week because with you. Oh, won't be next week because of Thanksgiving, but the week after. I of Thanksgiving, but the week after. I of Thanksgiving, but the week after. I will see you with Mr. Lars Lofrren for will see you with Mr. Lars Lofrren for will see you with Mr. Lars Lofrren for more Q&A.