The Contraindications of Key Performance Indicators with Keith Perhac — MicroConf On Air

And we are live. Welcome to Micro Comp And we are live. Welcome to Micro Comp on Air. This is a weekly show where on Air. This is a weekly show where on Air. This is a weekly show where every Wednesday we live stream for about every Wednesday we live stream for about every Wednesday we live stream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related 30 minutes and we cover topics related 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS startups. These are startups that don't startups. These are startups that don't startups. These are startups that don't require us to work 8 hour weeks, raise require us to work 8 hour weeks, raise require us to work 8 hour weeks, raise millions in venture capital, or drive us millions in venture capital, or drive us millions in venture capital, or drive us to the brink of burnout. In this show, to the brink of burnout. In this show, to the brink of burnout. In this show, we seek freedom, purpose, and we seek freedom, purpose, and we seek freedom, purpose, and relationships. and we want to maintain relationships. and we want to maintain relationships. and we want to maintain those values while building interesting those values while building interesting those values while building interesting companies that can have an impact on the companies that can have an impact on the companies that can have an impact on the world or maybe just our little corner of world or maybe just our little corner of world or maybe just our little corner of it. So, thank you so much for uh joining it. So, thank you so much for uh joining it. So, thank you so much for uh joining me again this week, whether you're me again this week, whether you're me again this week, whether you're joining us live um maybe you're in joining us live um maybe you're in joining us live um maybe you're in MicroM connect and uh you're going to be MicroM connect and uh you're going to be MicroM connect and uh you're going to be asking some questions of our guest today asking some questions of our guest today asking some questions of our guest today or even if you're listening or even if you're listening or even if you're listening asynchronously on the podcast feed, asynchronously on the podcast feed, asynchronously on the podcast feed, that's that's that's micropodcast.com or search for Micromp micropodcast.com or search for Micromp micropodcast.com or search for Micromp onair in any podcaster that you use. We onair in any podcaster that you use. We onair in any podcaster that you use. We have a pretty cool lineup set up today. have a pretty cool lineup set up today. have a pretty cool lineup set up today. And I say lineup, it's it's one guest. I And I say lineup, it's it's one guest. I And I say lineup, it's it's one guest. I don't know why I said lineup, but I'm don't know why I said lineup, but I'm don't know why I said lineup, but I'm excited to uh welcome um Oh boy, I'm excited to uh welcome um Oh boy, I'm excited to uh welcome um Oh boy, I'm getting slacked. All right, it's not getting slacked. All right, it's not getting slacked. All right, it's not from produ. Whenever I hear the slack from produ. Whenever I hear the slack from produ. Whenever I hear the slack noise while we're doing uh microphone on noise while we're doing uh microphone on noise while we're doing uh microphone on air, I think producer Xander's, you air, I think producer Xander's, you air, I think producer Xander's, you know, tech telling me that my know, tech telling me that my know, tech telling me that my microphone's not on or my my flies down microphone's not on or my my flies down microphone's not on or my my flies down or something like that. So, but we're or something like that. So, but we're or something like that. So, but we're all good. Um today, I have the pleasure all good. Um today, I have the pleasure all good. Um today, I have the pleasure of uh bringing Keith Perhack on the of uh bringing Keith Perhack on the of uh bringing Keith Perhack on the show. You may know Keith as the founder show. You may know Keith as the founder show. You may know Keith as the founder of of of Segmetrics and he is uh you know hailing Segmetrics and he is uh you know hailing Segmetrics and he is uh you know hailing from the Portland area so it's a little from the Portland area so it's a little from the Portland area so it's a little smoky outside his house right now but smoky outside his house right now but smoky outside his house right now but segmetrics.io if you want to check it segmetrics.io if you want to check it segmetrics.io if you want to check it out. Um they're a team of about 10 out. Um they're a team of about 10 out. Um they're a team of about 10 people in the growth stage. Um I was

people in the growth stage. Um I was people in the growth stage. Um I was talking to him beforehand kind of like talking to him beforehand kind of like talking to him beforehand kind of like how can we give people a sense of of how can we give people a sense of of how can we give people a sense of of where the company is? Um and he said where the company is? Um and he said where the company is? Um and he said look we have product market fit and look we have product market fit and look we have product market fit and we're in the the growth stages. We're we're in the the growth stages. We're we're in the the growth stages. We're starting to grow quickly. Um, and that's starting to grow quickly. Um, and that's starting to grow quickly. Um, and that's so that's where they are. And yeah, if so that's where they are. And yeah, if so that's where they are. And yeah, if you go to uh segmetrics.io, you can see you go to uh segmetrics.io, you can see you go to uh segmetrics.io, you can see their H1. Um, but in essence, Segmetrics their H1. Um, but in essence, Segmetrics their H1. Um, but in essence, Segmetrics is a tool that helps you get 100% is a tool that helps you get 100% is a tool that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, clarity on where your leads come from, clarity on where your leads come from, how they behave, and how much your how they behave, and how much your how they behave, and how much your marketing is really worth. They allow it marketing is really worth. They allow it marketing is really worth. They allow it allows you to get a handle on the KPIs allows you to get a handle on the KPIs allows you to get a handle on the KPIs that matter most for your marketing that matter most for your marketing that matter most for your marketing funnels. It's built by marketers for funnels. It's built by marketers for funnels. It's built by marketers for marketers. And today, Keith and I are marketers. And today, Keith and I are marketers. And today, Keith and I are going to be talking about how KPIs can going to be talking about how KPIs can going to be talking about how KPIs can be misleading when optimizing your be misleading when optimizing your be misleading when optimizing your marketing. So Keith Perhak, welcome to marketing. So Keith Perhak, welcome to marketing. So Keith Perhak, welcome to Micro Compound Air. Hey, hey, Rob, Micro Compound Air. Hey, hey, Rob, Micro Compound Air. Hey, hey, Rob, thanks for having me. Absolutely, man. thanks for having me. Absolutely, man. thanks for having me. Absolutely, man. Um, the skies look kind of clear from Um, the skies look kind of clear from Um, the skies look kind of clear from what I can see reflecting in your what I can see reflecting in your what I can see reflecting in your window. Is the air quality improved up window. Is the air quality improved up window. Is the air quality improved up there? It's not bad right now. It was there? It's not bad right now. It was there? It's not bad right now. It was really bad last night. It was kind of really bad last night. It was kind of really bad last night. It was kind of bad this morning. Uh, we'll see. It's bad this morning. Uh, we'll see. It's bad this morning. Uh, we'll see. It's really weird, you know, as the sun really weird, you know, as the sun really weird, you know, as the sun starts to set at and at like 3:00 it starts to set at and at like 3:00 it starts to set at and at like 3:00 it looks like an apocalypse out there. At 2 looks like an apocalypse out there. At 2 looks like an apocalypse out there. At 2 o'clock it looks like it's nighttime o'clock it looks like it's nighttime o'clock it looks like it's nighttime almost. So yeah, knock on wood that it's almost. So yeah, knock on wood that it's almost. So yeah, knock on wood that it's getting better. Yeah, for future if if getting better. Yeah, for future if if getting better. Yeah, for future if if you're listening to this in a year, this you're listening to this in a year, this you're listening to this in a year, this these are the great uh fires of the these are the great uh fires of the these are the great uh fires of the Pacific Northwest and in California Pacific Northwest and in California Pacific Northwest and in California happening in fall of 2020. So if you are happening in fall of 2020. So if you are happening in fall of 2020. So if you are in Microcom connect, go to the MicroM in Microcom connect, go to the MicroM in Microcom connect, go to the MicroM onair channel and you can ask questions onair channel and you can ask questions onair channel and you can ask questions of Keith or myself and we of course will of Keith or myself and we of course will of Keith or myself and we of course will tackle those live. But Keith, we're tackle those live. But Keith, we're tackle those live. But Keith, we're going to talk about how KPIs can be

going to talk about how KPIs can be going to talk about how KPIs can be misleading when you're optimizing your misleading when you're optimizing your misleading when you're optimizing your marketing. I'm going to define KPIs as marketing. I'm going to define KPIs as marketing. I'm going to define KPIs as key the phrase is key performance key the phrase is key performance key the phrase is key performance indicators for folks who aren't fluent indicators for folks who aren't fluent indicators for folks who aren't fluent in MBA speak. See, I don't I don't like in MBA speak. See, I don't I don't like in MBA speak. See, I don't I don't like KPIs, so I'm just going to be the hater KPIs, so I'm just going to be the hater KPIs, so I'm just going to be the hater on this one. But key performance on this one. But key performance on this one. But key performance indicator, I mean, they're they're indicator, I mean, they're they're indicator, I mean, they're they're critical and they're needed in larger critical and they're needed in larger critical and they're needed in larger orgs. It's just the stuff as a startup orgs. It's just the stuff as a startup orgs. It's just the stuff as a startup founder, I'm always like, get out of my founder, I'm always like, get out of my founder, I'm always like, get out of my way. I want no process, you know. Um, way. I want no process, you know. Um, way. I want no process, you know. Um, key performance indicators are the key performance indicators are the key performance indicators are the critical indicators of progress towards critical indicators of progress towards critical indicators of progress towards an intended result. KPIs provide focus an intended result. KPIs provide focus an intended result. KPIs provide focus for strategic and operational for strategic and operational for strategic and operational improvement. They create an analytical improvement. They create an analytical improvement. They create an analytical basis for decision-making and help focus basis for decision-making and help focus basis for decision-making and help focus attention on what matters most. That is attention on what matters most. That is attention on what matters most. That is a definition I took from something on a definition I took from something on a definition I took from something on Google. So, probably the little the Google. So, probably the little the Google. So, probably the little the little inset with the questions. But to little inset with the questions. But to little inset with the questions. But to me, I've I've realized that it's like uh me, I've I've realized that it's like uh me, I've I've realized that it's like uh once Drip got acquired and Lead Pages, once Drip got acquired and Lead Pages, once Drip got acquired and Lead Pages, you know, we became a went from a you know, we became a went from a you know, we became a went from a 10erson team up to a 100 person team 10erson team up to a 100 person team 10erson team up to a 100 person team basically. Um it's like each team needs basically. Um it's like each team needs basically. Um it's like each team needs something to focus on and if it's something to focus on and if it's something to focus on and if it's numeric, all the better. you know if numeric, all the better. you know if numeric, all the better. you know if it's um uh for customer success team it's um uh for customer success team it's um uh for customer success team maybe it's it's NPS or maybe it's churn maybe it's it's NPS or maybe it's churn maybe it's it's NPS or maybe it's churn or maybe it's trial to paid conversion or maybe it's trial to paid conversion or maybe it's trial to paid conversion rate and that's the those are the key rate and that's the those are the key rate and that's the those are the key performance they might be looking at it performance they might be looking at it performance they might be looking at it for sales obviously it's going to be for sales obviously it's going to be for sales obviously it's going to be closed deals dollar amount of deals closed deals dollar amount of deals closed deals dollar amount of deals closed um Mr growth from sales for closed um Mr growth from sales for closed um Mr growth from sales for engineering those ones are always hard engineering those ones are always hard engineering those ones are always hard right I I the the CEO when I left was right I I the the CEO when I left was right I I the the CEO when I left was like how can we measure engineering and like how can we measure engineering and like how can we measure engineering and I'm like well it's not bug count and I'm like well it's not bug count and I'm like well it's not bug count and it's not number of features shipped and it's not number of features shipped and it's not number of features shipped and it's not lines of it's not lines kinds it's not lines of it's not lines kinds it's not lines of it's not lines kinds of code shift. So, I I am very skeptical of code shift. So, I I am very skeptical of code shift. So, I I am very skeptical of of KPIs with with development teams, of of KPIs with with development teams, of of KPIs with with development teams, but that that gives you an idea of um

but that that gives you an idea of um but that that gives you an idea of um you know, if you're listening out there you know, if you're listening out there you know, if you're listening out there and you you've heard KPIs or you really and you you've heard KPIs or you really and you you've heard KPIs or you really didn't know what they are? Um they're didn't know what they are? Um they're didn't know what they are? Um they're just numbers that help you kind of guide just numbers that help you kind of guide just numbers that help you kind of guide your business, right? And and to drive your business, right? And and to drive your business, right? And and to drive it forward. Does that sound accurate? it forward. Does that sound accurate? it forward. Does that sound accurate? You have anything to add to just that You have anything to add to just that You have anything to add to just that definition before I kind of Cool. Yeah, definition before I kind of Cool. Yeah, definition before I kind of Cool. Yeah, I think that's that's fully accurate. I think that's that's fully accurate. I think that's that's fully accurate. The one thing I would add on there is The one thing I would add on there is The one thing I would add on there is that the idea of KPIs is kind of like a that the idea of KPIs is kind of like a that the idea of KPIs is kind of like a scorecard and like you and that they're scorecard and like you and that they're scorecard and like you and that they're key. You don't want to have so many that key. You don't want to have so many that key. You don't want to have so many that you're just looking at a line of you're just looking at a line of you're just looking at a line of numbers, but at some point you want to numbers, but at some point you want to numbers, but at some point you want to know, are we doing better or are we know, are we doing better or are we know, are we doing better or are we doing worse than we were last week or doing worse than we were last week or doing worse than we were last week or last month or last year? And as SAS last month or last year? And as SAS last month or last year? And as SAS founders, most of us are looking at MR. founders, most of us are looking at MR. founders, most of us are looking at MR. That's our top yep key KPI. It's like That's our top yep key KPI. It's like That's our top yep key KPI. It's like what's our MR? Is it going up or is it what's our MR? Is it going up or is it what's our MR? Is it going up or is it going down? going down? going down? Yep. Yeah. That's um that was my topline Yep. Yeah. That's um that was my topline Yep. Yeah. That's um that was my topline KPI too uh when I all my when I was KPI too uh when I all my when I was KPI too uh when I all my when I was running all my SAS companies and running all my SAS companies and running all my SAS companies and everything else. But then everything everything else. But then everything everything else. But then everything builds uh I'm sorry, everything builds builds uh I'm sorry, everything builds builds uh I'm sorry, everything builds to that because then I would look at how to that because then I would look at how to that because then I would look at how many trials did we get this month? What many trials did we get this month? What many trials did we get this month? What is our trial to paid conversion rate? is our trial to paid conversion rate? is our trial to paid conversion rate? What is our churn? What is our net What is our churn? What is our net What is our churn? What is our net churn? You know, and all those things churn? You know, and all those things churn? You know, and all those things contribute to it. But you're right, the contribute to it. But you're right, the contribute to it. But you're right, the number that it builds to is MR. It's number that it builds to is MR. It's number that it builds to is MR. It's growth rate. It's that kind of stuff. We growth rate. It's that kind of stuff. We growth rate. It's that kind of stuff. We do have uh we have a comment from the um do have uh we have a comment from the um do have uh we have a comment from the um from MicroCom Connect. Tristan Bailey from MicroCom Connect. Tristan Bailey from MicroCom Connect. Tristan Bailey says, "Yay, Keith. Smiley face might says, "Yay, Keith. Smiley face might says, "Yay, Keith. Smiley face might have bias." I assume you might know have bias." I assume you might know have bias." I assume you might know Tristan. Yeah, Tristan and I are working Tristan. Yeah, Tristan and I are working Tristan. Yeah, Tristan and I are working together on psychmetrics. So Oh, together on psychmetrics. So Oh, together on psychmetrics. So Oh, awesome. Very cool. Yeah, cool. So, um, awesome. Very cool. Yeah, cool. So, um, awesome. Very cool. Yeah, cool. So, um, first question of the day. All right.

first question of the day. All right. first question of the day. All right. What are the main KPIs that people What are the main KPIs that people What are the main KPIs that people should be looking at in their marketing? should be looking at in their marketing? should be looking at in their marketing? So, this is always an interesting one So, this is always an interesting one So, this is always an interesting one for me because it really depends on what for me because it really depends on what for me because it really depends on what you are trying to do with your marketing you are trying to do with your marketing you are trying to do with your marketing um, and what you're trying to improve. um, and what you're trying to improve. um, and what you're trying to improve. And so this number, this what KPI should And so this number, this what KPI should And so this number, this what KPI should you look at is something I get asked a you look at is something I get asked a you look at is something I get asked a ton, but it doesn't have a specific ton, but it doesn't have a specific ton, but it doesn't have a specific answer, but what I like to do is look at answer, but what I like to do is look at answer, but what I like to do is look at what you are trying to accomplish. And what you are trying to accomplish. And what you are trying to accomplish. And usually that means look at a funnel, usually that means look at a funnel, usually that means look at a funnel, look at a marketing funnel that you look at a marketing funnel that you look at a marketing funnel that you have. Let's take it from a SAS uh have. Let's take it from a SAS uh have. Let's take it from a SAS uh perspective where we have an ad, we have perspective where we have an ad, we have perspective where we have an ad, we have maybe an opt-in for some sort of white maybe an opt-in for some sort of white maybe an opt-in for some sort of white paper or a guide or an email marketing paper or a guide or an email marketing paper or a guide or an email marketing course, we have a nurture sequence and course, we have a nurture sequence and course, we have a nurture sequence and then we start with the product or the then we start with the product or the then we start with the product or the trial after that. Um some people skip trial after that. Um some people skip trial after that. Um some people skip right to the trial, but the idea is the right to the trial, but the idea is the right to the trial, but the idea is the same. You have a flow that people are same. You have a flow that people are same. You have a flow that people are going to go down. going to go down. going to go down. And the main KPIs that you want to look And the main KPIs that you want to look And the main KPIs that you want to look for in a marketing funnel like this is for in a marketing funnel like this is for in a marketing funnel like this is how many people are coming in. So how how many people are coming in. So how how many people are coming in. So how many visitors are we getting? How many many visitors are we getting? How many many visitors are we getting? How many optins are we getting? So what's that optins are we getting? So what's that optins are we getting? So what's that conversion rate? What's the conversion conversion rate? What's the conversion conversion rate? What's the conversion rate to rate to rate to paid? And then at the end, how much paid? And then at the end, how much paid? And then at the end, how much money are we making? And everything else money are we making? And everything else money are we making? And everything else comes back and can be calculated from comes back and can be calculated from comes back and can be calculated from these just four things. And I think the these just four things. And I think the these just four things. And I think the key number that you're looking for is key number that you're looking for is key number that you're looking for is from the number of people who come in, from the number of people who come in, from the number of people who come in, how much are they worth at the end of how much are they worth at the end of how much are they worth at the end of the funnel? And that's the number that the funnel? And that's the number that the funnel? And that's the number that you want to improve. So if I get a,000

you want to improve. So if I get a,000 you want to improve. So if I get a,000 people coming to my homepage and I made people coming to my homepage and I made people coming to my homepage and I made $1,000, each person is worth a dollar. $1,000, each person is worth a dollar. $1,000, each person is worth a dollar. So then that and that's my core KPI. I So then that and that's my core KPI. I So then that and that's my core KPI. I want to improve that number. And then as want to improve that number. And then as want to improve that number. And then as I look at different parts of that I look at different parts of that I look at different parts of that marketing funnel, that's when I'm going marketing funnel, that's when I'm going marketing funnel, that's when I'm going to build out those secondary level KPIs. to build out those secondary level KPIs. to build out those secondary level KPIs. Right? So, you know, you were talking Right? So, you know, you were talking Right? So, you know, you were talking about, okay, each department has about, okay, each department has about, okay, each department has different KPIs that they're watching um different KPIs that they're watching um different KPIs that they're watching um and monitoring. Well, if we're looking and monitoring. Well, if we're looking and monitoring. Well, if we're looking at improving the marketing funnel, that at improving the marketing funnel, that at improving the marketing funnel, that nurture sequence, then there's going to nurture sequence, then there's going to nurture sequence, then there's going to be different KPIs that we're looking at. be different KPIs that we're looking at. be different KPIs that we're looking at. We're going to be looking at email open We're going to be looking at email open We're going to be looking at email open rates and uh click-through rates and rates and uh click-through rates and rates and uh click-through rates and retention rates and unsubscribes and retention rates and unsubscribes and retention rates and unsubscribes and stuff like that. But that's not the core stuff like that. But that's not the core stuff like that. But that's not the core KPIs that we're looking at the top KPIs that we're looking at the top KPIs that we're looking at the top level. So when someone says, "What KPIs level. So when someone says, "What KPIs level. So when someone says, "What KPIs am I looking for?" It really matters am I looking for?" It really matters am I looking for?" It really matters what's the goal? What are you trying to what's the goal? What are you trying to what's the goal? What are you trying to improve in your marketing funnel? And improve in your marketing funnel? And improve in your marketing funnel? And like I said, I like to start at those like I said, I like to start at those like I said, I like to start at those those top four or five and then as we those top four or five and then as we those top four or five and then as we find a place that we're looking to find a place that we're looking to find a place that we're looking to optimize, break down and break down optimize, break down and break down optimize, break down and break down into KPIs for that initiative.

into KPIs for that initiative. into KPIs for that initiative. Yep. Makes a lot of sense. I would I Yep. Makes a lot of sense. I would I Yep. Makes a lot of sense. I would I would follow along with the those KPIs would follow along with the those KPIs would follow along with the those KPIs of that funnel as well. Um, what is what of that funnel as well. Um, what is what of that funnel as well. Um, what is what do you see as the number one issue then do you see as the number one issue then do you see as the number one issue then when people start looking at marketing when people start looking at marketing when people start looking at marketing KPIs? Because I mean I think our title KPIs? Because I mean I think our title KPIs? Because I mean I think our title is kind of saying, hey, KPIs can be is kind of saying, hey, KPIs can be is kind of saying, hey, KPIs can be misleading or or there can be misleading or or there can be misleading or or there can be counterindications or people maybe counterindications or people maybe counterindications or people maybe misuse them. So like what what do we misuse them. So like what what do we misuse them. So like what what do we mean? What do you mean by that? You mean? What do you mean by that? You mean? What do you mean by that? You know, when you're when you're saying know, when you're when you're saying know, when you're when you're saying that they can be misused or that they can be misused or that they can be misused or misunderstood. Yeah. And I think misunderstood. Yeah. And I think misunderstood. Yeah. And I think that people think that KPIs are because that people think that KPIs are because that people think that KPIs are because it's in all the MBA books. Everyone's it's in all the MBA books. Everyone's it's in all the MBA books. Everyone's talking about, oh, what are your KPIs? talking about, oh, what are your KPIs? talking about, oh, what are your KPIs? It's the number one thing that everyone It's the number one thing that everyone It's the number one thing that everyone thinks they need to focus on. And I thinks they need to focus on. And I thinks they need to focus on. And I don't believe that. I believe that KPIs don't believe that. I believe that KPIs don't believe that. I believe that KPIs are kind of like what you were saying is are kind of like what you were saying is are kind of like what you were saying is a great indicator of how you're doing. a great indicator of how you're doing. a great indicator of how you're doing. Are you improving or are you not Are you improving or are you not Are you improving or are you not improving? Right? Are you going up or improving? Right? Are you going up or improving? Right? Are you going up or are you going are you going are you going down? And that's all they are. They are down? And that's all they are. They are down? And that's all they are. They are a great measurement of where you are at a great measurement of where you are at a great measurement of where you are at any point in your marketing or in your any point in your marketing or in your any point in your marketing or in your founder in your SAS journey.

founder in your SAS journey. founder in your SAS journey. However, they don't really tell you However, they don't really tell you However, they don't really tell you anything other than I'm doing better or anything other than I'm doing better or anything other than I'm doing better or worse than I was last week, right? And worse than I was last week, right? And worse than I was last week, right? And that's the key problem that I think a that's the key problem that I think a that's the key problem that I think a lot of people have when they're starting lot of people have when they're starting lot of people have when they're starting to look at KPIs. So, two key problems. to look at KPIs. So, two key problems. to look at KPIs. So, two key problems. One, they look at too many. They're One, they look at too many. They're One, they look at too many. They're like, they forget the key. They're just like, they forget the key. They're just like, they forget the key. They're just like performance indicators. So they're like performance indicators. So they're like performance indicators. So they're like, "Okay, we need to know how many like, "Okay, we need to know how many like, "Okay, we need to know how many leads and how many people opened emails leads and how many people opened emails leads and how many people opened emails and how many clicks and how many people and how many clicks and how many people and how many clicks and how many people click this one little link and how many click this one little link and how many click this one little link and how many people are named um Sally on Tuesdays people are named um Sally on Tuesdays people are named um Sally on Tuesdays and like these are all the numbers that and like these are all the numbers that and like these are all the numbers that we think we need to we think we need to we think we need to know." And as soon as you start know." And as soon as you start know." And as soon as you start measuring all of them, you have lost any measuring all of them, you have lost any measuring all of them, you have lost any key performance indicator. And so the key performance indicator. And so the key performance indicator. And so the rule of thumb that I always go to is you rule of thumb that I always go to is you rule of thumb that I always go to is you want five at the most. You want five key want five at the most. You want five key want five at the most. You want five key performance indicators for any performance indicators for any performance indicators for any department or any initiative, right? So, department or any initiative, right? So, department or any initiative, right? So, for example, um if you're the CEO, you for example, um if you're the CEO, you for example, um if you're the CEO, you want probably how is revenue going up or want probably how is revenue going up or want probably how is revenue going up or down? Um I I don't even know anymore.

down? Um I I don't even know anymore. down? Um I I don't even know anymore. CEO would be it might be net profit or CEO would be it might be net profit or CEO would be it might be net profit or it might be money in the bank, you know, it might be money in the bank, you know, it might be money in the bank, you know, whatever, right? There's Yeah. whatever, right? There's Yeah. whatever, right? There's Yeah. And then you have your marketing And then you have your marketing And then you have your marketing department. And your marketing department. And your marketing department. And your marketing department has other goals. And then department has other goals. And then department has other goals. And then your ad department has a different set your ad department has a different set your ad department has a different set of goals probably around ad spend and of goals probably around ad spend and of goals probably around ad spend and cost per cost per cost per acquisition. But the CEO doesn't need to acquisition. But the CEO doesn't need to acquisition. But the CEO doesn't need to know, okay, what's our ad spend versus know, okay, what's our ad spend versus know, okay, what's our ad spend versus cost per acquisition right now. It's not cost per acquisition right now. It's not cost per acquisition right now. It's not his key focus. He has someone in charge his key focus. He has someone in charge his key focus. He has someone in charge to look at that, right? And I think to look at that, right? And I think to look at that, right? And I think that's that's the main problem that that's that's the main problem that that's that's the main problem that people come to, which is they just want people come to, which is they just want people come to, which is they just want they think this is important. So it's a they think this is important. So it's a they think this is important. So it's a key performance indicator. key performance indicator. key performance indicator. So too many. So that's the number one So too many. So that's the number one So too many. So that's the number one issue you see is just too many. Now you issue you see is just too many. Now you issue you see is just too many. Now you mentioned something to me about outliers mentioned something to me about outliers mentioned something to me about outliers and that how important outlier is it and that how important outlier is it and that how important outlier is it outlier KPIs or just outlier numbers are outlier KPIs or just outlier numbers are outlier KPIs or just outlier numbers are when trying to measure your marketing when trying to measure your marketing when trying to measure your marketing outliers in general. And this goes back outliers in general. And this goes back outliers in general. And this goes back to I think what I kind of feel is the to I think what I kind of feel is the to I think what I kind of feel is the second problem with KPIs is that people second problem with KPIs is that people second problem with KPIs is that people think that they can then improve their think that they can then improve their think that they can then improve their business by looking at those KPIs. business by looking at those KPIs. business by looking at those KPIs. Right? So, let's take the MR um example Right? So, let's take the MR um example Right? So, let's take the MR um example and we're like, okay, we had a huge dip and we're like, okay, we had a huge dip and we're like, okay, we had a huge dip in MR. Okay. Well, we know why because a in MR. Okay. Well, we know why because a in MR. Okay. Well, we know why because a bunch of people canceled, but what did bunch of people canceled, but what did bunch of people canceled, but what did that tell us? That didn't tell us that tell us? That didn't tell us that tell us? That didn't tell us anything. We just know that we're doing anything. We just know that we're doing anything. We just know that we're doing worse. So, people have this idea of, worse. So, people have this idea of, worse. So, people have this idea of, okay, I'm measuring the KPIs now. I know okay, I'm measuring the KPIs now. I know okay, I'm measuring the KPIs now. I know what to do to improve the business. And what to do to improve the business. And what to do to improve the business. And that's not it at all. It's like a that's not it at all. It's like a that's not it at all. It's like a speedometer. It just tells you kind of speedometer. It just tells you kind of speedometer. It just tells you kind of where you are. It doesn't tell you any where you are. It doesn't tell you any where you are. It doesn't tell you any problems that are going on.

problems that are going on. problems that are going on. And oh go ahead. No, can you keep going? And oh go ahead. No, can you keep going? And oh go ahead. No, can you keep going? Sorry, with a delay. Um, so with Sorry, with a delay. Um, so with Sorry, with a delay. Um, so with outliers, what I always say is from that outliers, what I always say is from that outliers, what I always say is from that KPI, you want to find the breakdown of KPI, you want to find the breakdown of KPI, you want to find the breakdown of people who are doing really well at that people who are doing really well at that people who are doing really well at that KPI and people who are doing really KPI and people who are doing really KPI and people who are doing really poorly at that KPI. So a a standard one poorly at that KPI. So a a standard one poorly at that KPI. So a a standard one I think of is conversion rate because I think of is conversion rate because I think of is conversion rate because I'm a conversion rate optimization guy. I'm a conversion rate optimization guy. I'm a conversion rate optimization guy. I've been doing this for years. Let's I've been doing this for years. Let's I've been doing this for years. Let's say you have a marketing funnel. You say you have a marketing funnel. You say you have a marketing funnel. You have a conversion rate of 50% on that have a conversion rate of 50% on that have a conversion rate of 50% on that funnel. So 50% of people who come into funnel. So 50% of people who come into funnel. So 50% of people who come into that funnel convert. Awesome. You are that funnel convert. Awesome. You are that funnel convert. Awesome. You are doing great. But let's look at drilling doing great. But let's look at drilling doing great. But let's look at drilling it down one. So you have two traffic it down one. So you have two traffic it down one. So you have two traffic sources. You have Google ads and you sources. You have Google ads and you sources. You have Google ads and you have Facebook ads. And let's say Google have Facebook ads. And let's say Google have Facebook ads. And let's say Google ads are converting at 100%. And Facebook ads are converting at 100%. And Facebook ads are converting at 100%. And Facebook ads are converting at ads are converting at ads are converting at 0%. Well, suddenly that 50% great number 0%. Well, suddenly that 50% great number 0%. Well, suddenly that 50% great number now has a whole different spin on it. now has a whole different spin on it. now has a whole different spin on it. Right? We're seeing now that we're Right? We're seeing now that we're Right? We're seeing now that we're wasting all of this money on Facebook wasting all of this money on Facebook wasting all of this money on Facebook ads because zero of them are converting.

ads because zero of them are converting. ads because zero of them are converting. And this this is not a hypothetical. And this this is not a hypothetical. And this this is not a hypothetical. This is something that we actually came This is something that we actually came This is something that we actually came to in segmentrics where we found that to in segmentrics where we found that to in segmentrics where we found that Facebook ads had a cost per acquisition Facebook ads had a cost per acquisition Facebook ads had a cost per acquisition of I think like $800 of I think like $800 of I think like $800 and our Google ads had a cost per and our Google ads had a cost per and our Google ads had a cost per acquisition of $60. And it's like, okay, acquisition of $60. And it's like, okay, acquisition of $60. And it's like, okay, well, we know where we're going to go well, we know where we're going to go well, we know where we're going to go with this difference. Yeah, it is. And with this difference. Yeah, it is. And with this difference. Yeah, it is. And fa and Facebook doesn't tell you this fa and Facebook doesn't tell you this fa and Facebook doesn't tell you this because they only see their own data, because they only see their own data, because they only see their own data, right? They're not letting you're not right? They're not letting you're not right? They're not letting you're not able to see this data, able to see this data, able to see this data, right? That's that's fascinating. So, right? That's that's fascinating. So, right? That's that's fascinating. So, are you able I I have a couple questions are you able I I have a couple questions are you able I I have a couple questions actually. Um, I think one one comment I actually. Um, I think one one comment I actually. Um, I think one one comment I want to make is like this goes back to want to make is like this goes back to want to make is like this goes back to the whole the whole the whole like when I look at like Amazon reviews like when I look at like Amazon reviews like when I look at like Amazon reviews for example, like I can look at a at a for example, like I can look at a at a for example, like I can look at a at a review for a new spatula, you know, or a review for a new spatula, you know, or a review for a new spatula, you know, or a new whatever, a pasta, you know, a new whatever, a pasta, you know, a new whatever, a pasta, you know, a garlic press or something and I can see garlic press or something and I can see garlic press or something and I can see that it's like a three and a half star, that it's like a three and a half star, that it's like a three and a half star, which isn't very good, right? But I which isn't very good, right? But I which isn't very good, right? But I always dig into the reviews and look at always dig into the reviews and look at always dig into the reviews and look at what are the onestar reviews. And what are the onestar reviews. And what are the onestar reviews. And there's often a bunch of one stars that there's often a bunch of one stars that there's often a bunch of one stars that are like this was delivered late and are like this was delivered late and are like this was delivered late and this thing when I tried to bang a nail this thing when I tried to bang a nail this thing when I tried to bang a nail with it, it didn't drive it in and it with it, it didn't drive it in and it with it, it didn't drive it in and it broke, you know, and then you'll see broke, you know, and then you'll see broke, you know, and then you'll see there's a bunch of five star views and there's a bunch of five star views and there's a bunch of five star views and the and the knowing that it's three and the and the knowing that it's three and the and the knowing that it's three and a half is actually not super helpful.

a half is actually not super helpful. a half is actually not super helpful. It's helpful at a at a high level, but It's helpful at a at a high level, but It's helpful at a at a high level, but knowing the details of why there are knowing the details of why there are knowing the details of why there are ones and what people like and dislike ones and what people like and dislike ones and what people like and dislike about it, I think are important. And about it, I think are important. And about it, I think are important. And that's kind of what you're saying here that's kind of what you're saying here that's kind of what you're saying here is mixing these numbers. I see this with is mixing these numbers. I see this with is mixing these numbers. I see this with um I've seen this with churn where um I've seen this with churn where um I've seen this with churn where everybody groups hey my churn number my everybody groups hey my churn number my everybody groups hey my churn number my monthly churn right now is 5%. And it's monthly churn right now is 5%. And it's monthly churn right now is 5%. And it's like oh what's your churn for you know like oh what's your churn for you know like oh what's your churn for you know the first month uh or the first 60 days the first month uh or the first 60 days the first month uh or the first 60 days or what's for the first 60 days of this or what's for the first 60 days of this or what's for the first 60 days of this particular cohort you know you can drill particular cohort you know you can drill particular cohort you know you can drill down those numbers are harder to get to. down those numbers are harder to get to. down those numbers are harder to get to. Um I think today with with dashboards Um I think today with with dashboards Um I think today with with dashboards like uh profit well barometrics chart like uh profit well barometrics chart like uh profit well barometrics chart mobile they're easier but um they're mobile they're easier but um they're mobile they're easier but um they're still it's it's hard to fully understand still it's it's hard to fully understand still it's it's hard to fully understand and yeah until you really get in and are and yeah until you really get in and are and yeah until you really get in and are able to drill down to that level you're able to drill down to that level you're able to drill down to that level you're you're often kind of looking at this you're often kind of looking at this you're often kind of looking at this aggregated data which while that's aggregated data which while that's aggregated data which while that's sometimes the best we can do as sometimes the best we can do as sometimes the best we can do as marketers it's kind it's kind of marketers it's kind it's kind of marketers it's kind it's kind of dangerous and that's what you're saying dangerous and that's what you're saying dangerous and that's what you're saying right exactly exactly and let let's take right exactly exactly and let let's take right exactly exactly and let let's take that churn number so I think a lot of that churn number so I think a lot of that churn number so I think a lot of people have realized recently that churn people have realized recently that churn people have realized recently that churn initial just the top level churn is not initial just the top level churn is not initial just the top level churn is not a valid metric because your churn in the a valid metric because your churn in the a valid metric because your churn in the first month is going to be so much first month is going to be so much first month is going to be so much higher than standard churn and it higher than standard churn and it higher than standard churn and it especially when you have a trial or especially when you have a trial or especially when you have a trial or something like that that churn really something like that that churn really something like that that churn really doesn't count I guess but let's look at doesn't count I guess but let's look at doesn't count I guess but let's look at it one different way which is okay so it one different way which is okay so it one different way which is okay so now we know we're going to ignore churn now we know we're going to ignore churn now we know we're going to ignore churn for the first 30 days we're only looking for the first 30 days we're only looking for the first 30 days we're only looking at what we'll call real churn well now at what we'll call real churn well now at what we'll call real churn well now we want to know what's the churn of ads we want to know what's the churn of ads we want to know what's the churn of ads versus organic versus referrals. Right?

versus organic versus referrals. Right? versus organic versus referrals. Right? So now we've added a second level onto So now we've added a second level onto So now we've added a second level onto there because we still have that churn there because we still have that churn there because we still have that churn KPI, but we want to figure out well we KPI, but we want to figure out well we KPI, but we want to figure out well we have a 10% churn. Who's churning? Why have a 10% churn. Who's churning? Why have a 10% churn. Who's churning? Why are they churning? So where do So we are they churning? So where do So we are they churning? So where do So we start asking questions. And this is what start asking questions. And this is what start asking questions. And this is what I think's really missing and what's I think's really missing and what's I think's really missing and what's important for marketing analytics tools, important for marketing analytics tools, important for marketing analytics tools, which is being able to ask these which is being able to ask these which is being able to ask these questions and in real time where I'm questions and in real time where I'm questions and in real time where I'm saying, okay, I see I have a churn of saying, okay, I see I have a churn of saying, okay, I see I have a churn of 10%. Is it okay? Where are these people 10%. Is it okay? Where are these people 10%. Is it okay? Where are these people coming from? Is there an outlier there? coming from? Is there an outlier there? coming from? Is there an outlier there? So, I look at my my uh levels of churn So, I look at my my uh levels of churn So, I look at my my uh levels of churn for out for uh lead source and I look at for out for uh lead source and I look at for out for uh lead source and I look at Google, uh Facebook, organic, etc. And I Google, uh Facebook, organic, etc. And I Google, uh Facebook, organic, etc. And I say, okay, no, they all look the same. say, okay, no, they all look the same. say, okay, no, they all look the same. Well, let's ask a different question. Well, let's ask a different question. Well, let's ask a different question. How about how far they get on the How about how far they get on the How about how far they get on the onboarding? And suddenly we see people onboarding? And suddenly we see people onboarding? And suddenly we see people who don't complete step two in the who don't complete step two in the who don't complete step two in the onboarding churn 20 times as often as onboarding churn 20 times as often as onboarding churn 20 times as often as someone who completes up to step three. someone who completes up to step three. someone who completes up to step three. So being able to ask these questions in So being able to ask these questions in So being able to ask these questions in real time and just see a chart, right? real time and just see a chart, right? real time and just see a chart, right? Just see a list of numbers of okay no Just see a list of numbers of okay no Just see a list of numbers of okay no everything looks normal or oh look this everything looks normal or oh look this everything looks normal or oh look this outlier is there and this is either outlier is there and this is either outlier is there and this is either really good so we want to spend more to really good so we want to spend more to really good so we want to spend more to do that or this is really bad so we want do that or this is really bad so we want do that or this is really bad so we want to fix that. And that's to me the power to fix that. And that's to me the power to fix that. And that's to me the power of those outliers which is when of those outliers which is when of those outliers which is when everything's good and everything's everything's good and everything's everything's good and everything's copathetic awesome you're doing great copathetic awesome you're doing great copathetic awesome you're doing great but that's not what you're going to do but that's not what you're going to do but that's not what you're going to do to improve. If everything is good, you to improve. If everything is good, you to improve. If everything is good, you don't have anything to do. But somewhere don't have anything to do. But somewhere don't have anything to do. But somewhere in that good is something that's not in that good is something that's not in that good is something that's not performing well or that's performing performing well or that's performing performing well or that's performing great and you want to do more of that.

great and you want to do more of that. great and you want to do more of that. Got it. That makes sense. And is that Got it. That makes sense. And is that Got it. That makes sense. And is that like is there a major mistake that like is there a major mistake that like is there a major mistake that people make when they start to look at people make when they start to look at people make when they start to look at outliers? outliers? outliers? I think they look at I think they look at I think they look at places where they don't have enough data places where they don't have enough data places where they don't have enough data yet or they don't have focus. So, one of yet or they don't have focus. So, one of yet or they don't have focus. So, one of the big ones that I see, especially with the big ones that I see, especially with the big ones that I see, especially with overall u conversion rate optimization, overall u conversion rate optimization, overall u conversion rate optimization, is so let's say we have that that is so let's say we have that that is so let's say we have that that salesunnel. Let's do a a product this salesunnel. Let's do a a product this salesunnel. Let's do a a product this time and people say, "I'm just not time and people say, "I'm just not time and people say, "I'm just not getting any sales. We need to optimize getting any sales. We need to optimize getting any sales. We need to optimize the sales page, this checkout page where the sales page, this checkout page where the sales page, this checkout page where they put in the credit card information. they put in the credit card information. they put in the credit card information. We really need because that's closest to We really need because that's closest to We really need because that's closest to the money. It makes sense. Really want the money. It makes sense. Really want the money. It makes sense. Really want to optimize that." It's like, "Okay, to optimize that." It's like, "Okay, to optimize that." It's like, "Okay, yeah, there's a lot of things we can yeah, there's a lot of things we can yeah, there's a lot of things we can change on this, a lot of things we can change on this, a lot of things we can change on this, a lot of things we can do to optimize this." How many people do to optimize this." How many people do to optimize this." How many people are coming to this page? like five a are coming to this page? like five a are coming to this page? like five a week like you're you're never going to week like you're you're never going to week like you're you're never going to be able to optimize this because it's be able to optimize this because it's be able to optimize this because it's going to take there's not enough data. going to take there's not enough data. going to take there's not enough data. So yeah, this is really the big issue So yeah, this is really the big issue So yeah, this is really the big issue that I see is people start way too far that I see is people start way too far that I see is people start way too far down the funnel when they don't have any down the funnel when they don't have any down the funnel when they don't have any data. So the kind of rule of thumb I use data. So the kind of rule of thumb I use data. So the kind of rule of thumb I use is to work backwards from because you is to work backwards from because you is to work backwards from because you want to be as close to the money as want to be as close to the money as want to be as close to the money as possible but work backwards from that.

possible but work backwards from that. possible but work backwards from that. So start at okay checkout. Do we have So start at okay checkout. Do we have So start at okay checkout. Do we have enough traffic there to do we have enough traffic there to do we have enough traffic there to do we have enough people coming to that page to enough people coming to that page to enough people coming to that page to make a difference? No. Go to the next make a difference? No. Go to the next make a difference? No. Go to the next one. Sales page. How about there? No. one. Sales page. How about there? No. one. Sales page. How about there? No. Emails. No. Opt-in page. Okay. We Emails. No. Opt-in page. Okay. We Emails. No. Opt-in page. Okay. We finally have enough people coming to the finally have enough people coming to the finally have enough people coming to the opt-in page, but they're not converting. opt-in page, but they're not converting. opt-in page, but they're not converting. Okay. So, let's fix that first and then Okay. So, let's fix that first and then Okay. So, let's fix that first and then let's fix the next one. And then let's let's fix the next one. And then let's let's fix the next one. And then let's fix the next one. And it's really it is fix the next one. And it's really it is fix the next one. And it's really it is a funnel a funnel a funnel because the closest things you can get because the closest things you can get because the closest things you can get to the money are at the end. But if you to the money are at the end. But if you to the money are at the end. But if you don't have anyone coming in the top, it don't have anyone coming in the top, it don't have anyone coming in the top, it doesn't matter. Mhm. That's interesting doesn't matter. Mhm. That's interesting doesn't matter. Mhm. That's interesting because it's, you know, uh, Asia Orangio because it's, you know, uh, Asia Orangio because it's, you know, uh, Asia Orangio talks about starting your optimization talks about starting your optimization talks about starting your optimization at the bottom of the funnel, which makes at the bottom of the funnel, which makes at the bottom of the funnel, which makes sense because if you get that working sense because if you get that working sense because if you get that working and as you work backwards, the more and as you work backwards, the more and as you work backwards, the more people you push through it, the more people you push through it, the more people you push through it, the more you're going to you're going to you're going to convert. But your point is because convert. But your point is because convert. But your point is because you're, you know, kind of saying the you're, you know, kind of saying the you're, you know, kind of saying the opposite. You're agreeing with her and opposite. You're agreeing with her and opposite. You're agreeing with her and also disagreeing with her, I think, and also disagreeing with her, I think, and also disagreeing with her, I think, and and kind of saying, well, until you have and kind of saying, well, until you have and kind of saying, well, until you have enough people, you can't really improve. enough people, you can't really improve. enough people, you can't really improve. How can you really even know how to How can you really even know how to How can you really even know how to improve, right? How to test, right?

improve, right? How to test, right? improve, right? How to test, right? Yeah. And I think there are of course Yeah. And I think there are of course Yeah. And I think there are of course lowhanging fruit that you can do on that lowhanging fruit that you can do on that lowhanging fruit that you can do on that checkout page. You could make sure it checkout page. You could make sure it checkout page. You could make sure it has a button. Like there there's there's has a button. Like there there's there's has a button. Like there there's there's obvious things you can do at the obvious things you can do at the obvious things you can do at the beginning at the bottom of the funnel to beginning at the bottom of the funnel to beginning at the bottom of the funnel to make sure that it is following best make sure that it is following best make sure that it is following best practices, it works, right? But when practices, it works, right? But when practices, it works, right? But when you're looking to improve, right, rules you're looking to improve, right, rules you're looking to improve, right, rules of thumb. But when you're really looking of thumb. But when you're really looking of thumb. But when you're really looking to improve, when to improve, when to improve, when you're not when you're looking for that you're not when you're looking for that you're not when you're looking for that next thing, you have to move up the next thing, you have to move up the next thing, you have to move up the funnel. You have to have enough traffic funnel. You have to have enough traffic funnel. You have to have enough traffic to be able to test. Because I I've to be able to test. Because I I've to be able to test. Because I I've worked with a number of clients who are worked with a number of clients who are worked with a number of clients who are like, "Hey, we want to test this button like, "Hey, we want to test this button like, "Hey, we want to test this button on the sales page. If it's red or it's on the sales page. If it's red or it's on the sales page. If it's red or it's blue, and this is a small change, and if blue, and this is a small change, and if blue, and this is a small change, and if you're not getting enough traffic, you're not getting enough traffic, you're not getting enough traffic, you're never going to get an answer to you're never going to get an answer to you're never going to get an answer to that question." But if you have that question." But if you have that question." But if you have something that has a th00and 2,000 something that has a th00and 2,000 something that has a th00and 2,000 people coming to it, you're going to get people coming to it, you're going to get people coming to it, you're going to get that answer question that question that answer question that question that answer question that question answered pretty quickly, right? Yeah. I answered pretty quickly, right? Yeah. I answered pretty quickly, right? Yeah. I think it's something good for people to think it's something good for people to think it's something good for people to keep in mind is that we you know I keep in mind is that we you know I keep in mind is that we you know I remember I I tweeted something this is remember I I tweeted something this is remember I I tweeted something this is year it was probably five years ago and year it was probably five years ago and year it was probably five years ago and it was just a a random thought I had one it was just a a random thought I had one it was just a a random thought I had one day but I had realized like I said day but I had realized like I said day but I had realized like I said something like making decision I it was something like making decision I it was something like making decision I it was probably the first time I had said like probably the first time I had said like probably the first time I had said like being a founder is making hard decisions being a founder is making hard decisions being a founder is making hard decisions with incomplete information and then I with incomplete information and then I with incomplete information and then I said I find most of the decisions I make said I find most of the decisions I make said I find most of the decisions I make I can get about most of the decisions I I can get about most of the decisions I I can get about most of the decisions I make it's like 80% is made on data and make it's like 80% is made on data and make it's like 80% is made on data and 20% is like rules of thumb and gut feel 20% is like rules of thumb and gut feel 20% is like rules of thumb and gut feel or something like that. And someone came or something like that. And someone came or something like that. And someone came back and I don't know who it is, but he back and I don't know who it is, but he back and I don't know who it is, but he was like, "No, 100% data all the time. I was like, "No, 100% data all the time. I was like, "No, 100% data all the time. I make every decision with data." And I make every decision with data." And I make every decision with data." And I remember being like, "Well, then how do remember being like, "Well, then how do remember being like, "Well, then how do you build a landing page when you have you build a landing page when you have you build a landing page when you have no traffic? You don't have data yet."

no traffic? You don't have data yet." no traffic? You don't have data yet." You know, it's like that that's what I You know, it's like that that's what I You know, it's like that that's what I was trying to imply by that is I use um was trying to imply by that is I use um was trying to imply by that is I use um my rules of thumb or other people's my rules of thumb or other people's my rules of thumb or other people's rules of thumb to do the first cut at rules of thumb to do the first cut at rules of thumb to do the first cut at pretty much everything. you know, if pretty much everything. you know, if pretty much everything. you know, if it's an email that I'm going to send it's an email that I'm going to send it's an email that I'm going to send out, if it's a landing page, if it's a a out, if it's a landing page, if it's a a out, if it's a landing page, if it's a a product or an ad campaign, it's like, product or an ad campaign, it's like, product or an ad campaign, it's like, how do you decide the first 10 images to how do you decide the first 10 images to how do you decide the first 10 images to test test when you have no data? You test test when you have no data? You test test when you have no data? You know, what what 10 images should I test know, what what 10 images should I test know, what what 10 images should I test in the Facebook ad or whatever? And then in the Facebook ad or whatever? And then in the Facebook ad or whatever? And then once you have the data, of course, we're once you have the data, of course, we're once you have the data, of course, we're going to go with that. But there has to going to go with that. But there has to going to go with that. But there has to be something. So, I I gut feel and and be something. So, I I gut feel and and be something. So, I I gut feel and and um if you before so gut feel I think um if you before so gut feel I think um if you before so gut feel I think comes from experience or just from, you comes from experience or just from, you comes from experience or just from, you know, an instinct or whatever. But I know, an instinct or whatever. But I know, an instinct or whatever. But I think the nice part is rules of thumb think the nice part is rules of thumb think the nice part is rules of thumb you can often hear on on shows like this you can often hear on on shows like this you can often hear on on shows like this or conversations with founders who have or conversations with founders who have or conversations with founders who have been doing it long enough that they have been doing it long enough that they have been doing it long enough that they have their own mental rules of thumb, right, their own mental rules of thumb, right, their own mental rules of thumb, right, of what where the conversion should be. of what where the conversion should be. of what where the conversion should be. And I think that that's also important And I think that that's also important And I think that that's also important when looking and it's it's a dichotomy when looking and it's it's a dichotomy when looking and it's it's a dichotomy because marketing is part science because marketing is part science because marketing is part science because it's part databased and it's because it's part databased and it's because it's part databased and it's part art because you have to know what part art because you have to know what part art because you have to know what to do and how people think, right? It's to do and how people think, right? It's to do and how people think, right? It's almost like a like applied psychology in almost like a like applied psychology in almost like a like applied psychology in a way, right? You have to understand how a way, right? You have to understand how a way, right? You have to understand how people think. like you can see the data people think. like you can see the data people think. like you can see the data all day that okay organic is converting all day that okay organic is converting all day that okay organic is converting really well where Facebook is not but really well where Facebook is not but really well where Facebook is not but that doesn't tell you what you need to that doesn't tell you what you need to that doesn't tell you what you need to do to fix it and that's where the art do to fix it and that's where the art do to fix it and that's where the art and the psychology and the understanding and the psychology and the understanding and the psychology and the understanding um of that is and that comes with um of that is and that comes with um of that is and that comes with experience and even the idea of like experience and even the idea of like experience and even the idea of like okay what should we look at to find okay what should we look at to find okay what should we look at to find those outliers what are some things like those outliers what are some things like those outliers what are some things like people aren't they're coming on this people aren't they're coming on this people aren't they're coming on this webinar but they're not converting well webinar but they're not converting well webinar but they're not converting well Facebook ads are not converting because

Facebook ads are not converting because Facebook ads are not converting because they weren't looking to purchase they weren't looking to purchase they weren't looking to purchase anything. They're not. And it's like anything. They're not. And it's like anything. They're not. And it's like just thinking through that mental just thinking through that mental just thinking through that mental process of people in each of these modes process of people in each of these modes process of people in each of these modes as they're coming through that funnel. as they're coming through that funnel. as they're coming through that funnel. And that's how you start getting those And that's how you start getting those And that's how you start getting those ideas of well, what about this? Oh, what ideas of well, what about this? Oh, what ideas of well, what about this? Oh, what about this? And that's I think how you about this? And that's I think how you about this? And that's I think how you build those outliers, how you start to build those outliers, how you start to build those outliers, how you start to identify people who are performing and identify people who are performing and identify people who are performing and who aren't performing and then figure who aren't performing and then figure who aren't performing and then figure out how you can best um tailor your out how you can best um tailor your out how you can best um tailor your messaging towards them. Yep. Cool. We messaging towards them. Yep. Cool. We messaging towards them. Yep. Cool. We have a question from the live audience. have a question from the live audience. have a question from the live audience. So Reasonz, hopefully I'm pronouncing So Reasonz, hopefully I'm pronouncing So Reasonz, hopefully I'm pronouncing your name right. Reason Simone Reasonz your name right. Reason Simone Reasonz your name right. Reason Simone Reasonz Simon says, "What is a good traffic Simon says, "What is a good traffic Simon says, "What is a good traffic number to start optimizing for number to start optimizing for number to start optimizing for conversion?" So I think he's kind of conversion?" So I think he's kind of conversion?" So I think he's kind of asking like how much traffic do I need asking like how much traffic do I need asking like how much traffic do I need to start split testing things? Right. to start split testing things? Right. to start split testing things? Right. The It's interesting. So I generally The It's interesting. So I generally The It's interesting. So I generally have around 100 people going through have around 100 people going through have around 100 people going through something before I um before I start something before I um before I start something before I um before I start optimizing it. So traffic-wise, I would optimizing it. So traffic-wise, I would optimizing it. So traffic-wise, I would actually say that's so traffic is actually say that's so traffic is actually say that's so traffic is different than optimization. So what I different than optimization. So what I different than optimization. So what I would say is if you have a 100 people would say is if you have a 100 people would say is if you have a 100 people filling out the form on a page, you are filling out the form on a page, you are filling out the form on a page, you are ripe for optimizing that optin, right?

ripe for optimizing that optin, right? ripe for optimizing that optin, right? Yeah. 100 conversions at any step is Yeah. 100 conversions at any step is Yeah. 100 conversions at any step is what you should use to say, "Okay, I now what you should use to say, "Okay, I now what you should use to say, "Okay, I now have enough people to start testing this have enough people to start testing this have enough people to start testing this and going through this." and going through this." and going through this." Um, Um, Um, traffic-wise, it's interesting because, traffic-wise, it's interesting because, traffic-wise, it's interesting because, you know, conversions, especially when you know, conversions, especially when you know, conversions, especially when you're split testing, you have a you're split testing, you have a you're split testing, you have a um you have a calculation of um you have a calculation of um you have a calculation of how statistical significance of that how statistical significance of that how statistical significance of that test. And what we have seen is that when test. And what we have seen is that when test. And what we have seen is that when you have small changes, the statistical you have small changes, the statistical you have small changes, the statistical significance is generally very small. So significance is generally very small. So significance is generally very small. So if you change the wording on a button, if you change the wording on a button, if you change the wording on a button, uh a lot of times the change is very uh a lot of times the change is very uh a lot of times the change is very small, the difference is going to be small, the difference is going to be small, the difference is going to be very small and it's going to take a long very small and it's going to take a long very small and it's going to take a long time for you to figure out, okay, did time for you to figure out, okay, did time for you to figure out, okay, did this really move the needle? Where if this really move the needle? Where if this really move the needle? Where if you have a big change where it's like a you have a big change where it's like a you have a big change where it's like a completely different picture of a person completely different picture of a person completely different picture of a person or a person versus a robot or like these or a person versus a robot or like these or a person versus a robot or like these things things things that highly ch or especially H1 changes, that highly ch or especially H1 changes, that highly ch or especially H1 changes, right? So you're changing the key right? So you're changing the key right? So you're changing the key proposition of the page. These are tests proposition of the page. These are tests proposition of the page. These are tests that we see big differences in that we see big differences in that we see big differences in conversion rates and you're able to get conversion rates and you're able to get conversion rates and you're able to get that statistical significance much that statistical significance much that statistical significance much quicker.

quicker. quicker. Never do multi- rate uh testing when Never do multi- rate uh testing when Never do multi- rate uh testing when you're when you only have a little bit you're when you only have a little bit you're when you only have a little bit of traffic because that will take you of traffic because that will take you of traffic because that will take you years. That's what I was saying. Never. years. That's what I was saying. Never. years. That's what I was saying. Never. Yeah. Yeah. And that's um that's a big Yeah. Yeah. And that's um that's a big Yeah. Yeah. And that's um that's a big part of it, right? is it's that part of it, right? is it's that part of it, right? is it's that experience level of I know that if I experience level of I know that if I experience level of I know that if I change the headline or the design, like change the headline or the design, like change the headline or the design, like everything on it, that I'm going to have everything on it, that I'm going to have everything on it, that I'm going to have a dramatic difference. And I know that a dramatic difference. And I know that a dramatic difference. And I know that if I change some wording in a body if I change some wording in a body if I change some wording in a body paragraph or I change one icon or I paragraph or I change one icon or I paragraph or I change one icon or I change the button color from blue to change the button color from blue to change the button color from blue to red, the odds of me getting that big of red, the odds of me getting that big of red, the odds of me getting that big of a change are pretty low. So, you need a change are pretty low. So, you need a change are pretty low. So, you need more traffic, you know, at that to to more traffic, you know, at that to to more traffic, you know, at that to to make these tiny tweaks. I think that's a make these tiny tweaks. I think that's a make these tiny tweaks. I think that's a mistake mistake I've seen people make is mistake mistake I've seen people make is mistake mistake I've seen people make is not changing enough or not not making not changing enough or not not making not changing enough or not not making drastic enough changes and then you just drastic enough changes and then you just drastic enough changes and then you just let the test run for a month or two and let the test run for a month or two and let the test run for a month or two and then it's like oh these are basically then it's like oh these are basically then it's like oh these are basically the same thing. Yeah. And if you have the same thing. Yeah. And if you have the same thing. Yeah. And if you have low traffic generally focus on so there low traffic generally focus on so there low traffic generally focus on so there is no more fold anymore. Anyone who says is no more fold anymore. Anyone who says is no more fold anymore. Anyone who says oh it has to be above the fold doesn't oh it has to be above the fold doesn't oh it has to be above the fold doesn't exist anymore to a degree but focus on exist anymore to a degree but focus on exist anymore to a degree but focus on that what that hero image that above the that what that hero image that above the that what that hero image that above the fold. What is your H1? What is the fold. What is your H1? What is the fold. What is your H1? What is the iconography that you're using when iconography that you're using when iconography that you're using when people first visit the page? That's people first visit the page? That's people first visit the page? That's going to be your biggest kind of win going to be your biggest kind of win going to be your biggest kind of win because that's your first ex this the because that's your first ex this the because that's your first ex this the first experience that people are going first experience that people are going first experience that people are going to have with that page. Right. Right.

to have with that page. Right. Right. to have with that page. Right. Right. Right. Very cool. So sir, um we are Right. Very cool. So sir, um we are Right. Very cool. So sir, um we are almost at time, but you have any other almost at time, but you have any other almost at time, but you have any other thoughts? I don't know, maybe best thoughts? I don't know, maybe best thoughts? I don't know, maybe best practice or thought. Yeah, it all it practice or thought. Yeah, it all it practice or thought. Yeah, it all it goes so fast. I goes so fast. I goes so fast. I mean, it really does. It's like, hey, we mean, it really does. It's like, hey, we mean, it really does. It's like, hey, we answered like three questions. Um yeah, answered like three questions. Um yeah, answered like three questions. Um yeah, thanks everybody in the in the audience thanks everybody in the in the audience thanks everybody in the in the audience for asking those. Uh that was a good for asking those. Uh that was a good for asking those. Uh that was a good question about conversions, but you have question about conversions, but you have question about conversions, but you have any other thoughts before we close? any other thoughts before we close? any other thoughts before we close? I think that I think especially in the I think that I think especially in the I think that I think especially in the developer community and in the founder developer community and in the founder developer community and in the founder community, I think there's a lot of community, I think there's a lot of community, I think there's a lot of people who think oh marketing I don't people who think oh marketing I don't people who think oh marketing I don't get it or oh it's a dirty word kind of get it or oh it's a dirty word kind of get it or oh it's a dirty word kind of thing. I I'm a developer by trade. Um, I thing. I I'm a developer by trade. Um, I thing. I I'm a developer by trade. Um, I kind of fell into marketing kind of fell into marketing kind of fell into marketing and the biggest successes I've had with and the biggest successes I've had with and the biggest successes I've had with marketing is thinking about marketing marketing is thinking about marketing marketing is thinking about marketing the same way I think about development the same way I think about development the same way I think about development where it's not a measma of things I'm where it's not a measma of things I'm where it's not a measma of things I'm going to do. I break it down just like going to do. I break it down just like going to do. I break it down just like we were talking about with those funnels we were talking about with those funnels we were talking about with those funnels of we have a start condition, we have an of we have a start condition, we have an of we have a start condition, we have an end condition, and we have a number of end condition, and we have a number of end condition, and we have a number of steps, processes that are going to go steps, processes that are going to go steps, processes that are going to go through everything. And we just put a through everything. And we just put a through everything. And we just put a number on each one. How is this one number on each one. How is this one number on each one. How is this one doing? What is the value of people who doing? What is the value of people who doing? What is the value of people who have done this step? What is the dollar have done this step? What is the dollar have done this step? What is the dollar value of people who have done this step?

value of people who have done this step? value of people who have done this step? And just writing out I have flowcharts And just writing out I have flowcharts And just writing out I have flowcharts for every single marketing campaign we for every single marketing campaign we for every single marketing campaign we have and we put a dollar value to every have and we put a dollar value to every have and we put a dollar value to every single thing. And that lets us easily single thing. And that lets us easily single thing. And that lets us easily see where our holes are and we can see where our holes are and we can see where our holes are and we can really look at it in a more scientific really look at it in a more scientific really look at it in a more scientific and structured way than I think a lot of and structured way than I think a lot of and structured way than I think a lot of people who are not in that marketing people who are not in that marketing people who are not in that marketing world uh realize that you can do. Yeah, world uh realize that you can do. Yeah, world uh realize that you can do. Yeah, I agree. And that's how I mean also a I agree. And that's how I mean also a I agree. And that's how I mean also a developer engineer from you know my my developer engineer from you know my my developer engineer from you know my my most of my life and that's how I view most of my life and that's how I view most of my life and that's how I view marketing too. I've always viewed it as marketing too. I've always viewed it as marketing too. I've always viewed it as a technical marketer a leftrain marketer a technical marketer a leftrain marketer a technical marketer a leftrain marketer where the numbers and the funnels made where the numbers and the funnels made where the numbers and the funnels made sense to my brain. Um I've heard sense to my brain. Um I've heard sense to my brain. Um I've heard marketing described as math and human marketing described as math and human marketing described as math and human psychology and I the math was easy. The psychology and I the math was easy. The psychology and I the math was easy. The math is very natural and I think if math is very natural and I think if math is very natural and I think if you're a developer lean into the math you're a developer lean into the math you're a developer lean into the math and learn enough of the human psychology and learn enough of the human psychology and learn enough of the human psychology when you say human psychology it's how when you say human psychology it's how when you say human psychology it's how people make buying decisions the stages people make buying decisions the stages people make buying decisions the stages they go through what cop you know what they go through what cop you know what they go through what cop you know what copywriting is and what sales copy copywriting is and what sales copy copywriting is and what sales copy actually looks like I mean these are the actually looks like I mean these are the actually looks like I mean these are the things I had to learn and I read all the things I had to learn and I read all the things I had to learn and I read all the I mean this was 2005 to 2011 when I was I mean this was 2005 to 2011 when I was I mean this was 2005 to 2011 when I was teaching myself this it was uh there was teaching myself this it was uh there was teaching myself this it was uh there was no startup writing on this there was no no startup writing on this there was no no startup writing on this there was no copy hackers at the time it was all the copy hackers at the time it was all the copy hackers at the time it was all the um infoarketer guys it was the Dan um infoarketer guys it was the Dan um infoarketer guys it was the Dan Kennedy and that whole crew which I Kennedy and that whole crew which I Kennedy and that whole crew which I don't love a lot of the stuff they do don't love a lot of the stuff they do don't love a lot of the stuff they do from a person, you know, personal from a person, you know, personal from a person, you know, personal perspective, but but because they're perspective, but but because they're perspective, but but because they're just too hard driving sales and it's just too hard driving sales and it's just too hard driving sales and it's money, money, money. And I feel like money, money, money. And I feel like money, money, money. And I feel like some of them like trick people into some of them like trick people into some of them like trick people into buying stuff. Um, but they know buying stuff. Um, but they know buying stuff. Um, but they know copyrightiting and they know persuasion copyrightiting and they know persuasion copyrightiting and they know persuasion and that was a big thing that I think is and that was a big thing that I think is and that was a big thing that I think is kind of the other side of it. Totally.

kind of the other side of it. Totally. kind of the other side of it. Totally. And then you can learn from them and And then you can learn from them and And then you can learn from them and apply it in a way that feels comfortable apply it in a way that feels comfortable apply it in a way that feels comfortable to you. And that's all it is. This is to you. And that's all it is. This is to you. And that's all it is. This is not it's not so complicated. It's not not it's not so complicated. It's not not it's not so complicated. It's not black magic. It really is. You know, the black magic. It really is. You know, the black magic. It really is. You know, the first cop first copy I wrote was crap. first cop first copy I wrote was crap. first cop first copy I wrote was crap. Didn't convert very well. and the 10th, Didn't convert very well. and the 10th, Didn't convert very well. and the 10th, you know, landing page I built was you know, landing page I built was you know, landing page I built was really good, you know, and it's just really good, you know, and it's just really good, you know, and it's just it's just learning like the first hello it's just learning like the first hello it's just learning like the first hello world program you write sucks and then world program you write sucks and then world program you write sucks and then the, you know, that 20th code you ship the, you know, that 20th code you ship the, you know, that 20th code you ship is is much better. So sir, thank you so is is much better. So sir, thank you so is is much better. So sir, thank you so much for joining me on Microconf on air much for joining me on Microconf on air much for joining me on Microconf on air today. Yeah, thank you for having today. Yeah, thank you for having today. Yeah, thank you for having wonderful twitter handle is uh there on wonderful twitter handle is uh there on wonderful twitter handle is uh there on screen. I feel like I'm going to screen. I feel like I'm going to screen. I feel like I'm going to pronounce it wrong because it's pronounce it wrong because it's pronounce it wrong because it's Japanese, isn't it? Is it Harrison Bon? Japanese, isn't it? Is it Harrison Bon? Japanese, isn't it? Is it Harrison Bon? Very close. Uh, Haris Senbon. Haris the Very close. Uh, Haris Senbon. Haris the Very close. Uh, Haris Senbon. Haris the onen. Yeah, got it. Senbon 79 used to onen. Yeah, got it. Senbon 79 used to onen. Yeah, got it. Senbon 79 used to live in Japan for those who don't know. live in Japan for those who don't know. live in Japan for those who don't know. So, thanks again for coming on the show, So, thanks again for coming on the show, So, thanks again for coming on the show, man. Thanks so much, Rob. I had a great man. Thanks so much, Rob. I had a great man. Thanks so much, Rob. I had a great time. Absolutely. All right. And a time. Absolutely. All right. And a time. Absolutely. All right. And a couple housekeeping items as we check couple housekeeping items as we check couple housekeeping items as we check out. Thank you so much to Hey, and out. Thank you so much to Hey, and out. Thank you so much to Hey, and Stripe. They are our uh flagship Stripe. They are our uh flagship Stripe. They are our uh flagship partners with MicroM for the year and uh partners with MicroM for the year and uh partners with MicroM for the year and uh they make everything we do just a little they make everything we do just a little they make everything we do just a little easier and we always appreciate being easier and we always appreciate being easier and we always appreciate being partnered up with them. Microcom partnered up with them. Microcom partnered up with them. Microcom masterminds are happening. Round two of masterminds are happening. Round two of masterminds are happening. Round two of our matching. Go to our matching. Go to our matching. Go to microcommasterminds.com. I believe it's microcommasterminds.com. I believe it's microcommasterminds.com. I believe it's plural. Uh or you can just head to plural. Uh or you can just head to plural. Uh or you can just head to microcom.com and and search around for microcom.com and and search around for microcom.com and and search around for masterminds. If you haven't already, masterminds. If you haven't already, masterminds. If you haven't already, head to head to head to youtube.com/microconf hit subscribe and youtube.com/microconf hit subscribe and youtube.com/microconf hit subscribe and we'll see you next Wednesday, same time, we'll see you next Wednesday, same time, we'll see you next Wednesday, same time, same place. microconfonair.com.

same place. microconfonair.com. same place. microconfonair.com. Have a good week. Have a good week. Have a good week. [Music]