The SaaS Podcast Awards

and we're live welcome to this week's and we're live welcome to this week's extra special episode of microcom on air extra special episode of microcom on air extra special episode of microcom on air I am your host Rob Walling as always so I am your host Rob Walling as always so I am your host Rob Walling as always so every Wednesday is every every other every Wednesday is every every other every Wednesday is every every other Wednesday at 1 pm Eastern we live stream Wednesday at 1 pm Eastern we live stream Wednesday at 1 pm Eastern we live stream for about 30 minutes we cover topics for about 30 minutes we cover topics for about 30 minutes we cover topics related to building and growing related to building and growing related to building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy value and maintain healthy value and maintain healthy relationships and a big part of this relationships and a big part of this relationships and a big part of this journey is sharing it with others and journey is sharing it with others and journey is sharing it with others and experiencing it Through The Eyes of of experiencing it Through The Eyes of of experiencing it Through The Eyes of of other folks in this community this this other folks in this community this this other folks in this community this this microcom startups for the rest of us the microcom startups for the rest of us the microcom startups for the rest of us the bootstrap and mostly bootstrap community bootstrap and mostly bootstrap community bootstrap and mostly bootstrap community and such a big part of that over the and such a big part of that over the and such a big part of that over the past let's say five to 10 years as it's past let's say five to 10 years as it's past let's say five to 10 years as it's evolved is uh the the podcast Community evolved is uh the the podcast Community evolved is uh the the podcast Community um and you know producer Xander and I um and you know producer Xander and I um and you know producer Xander and I started talking about that's about six started talking about that's about six started talking about that's about six eight months ago about what we could do eight months ago about what we could do eight months ago about what we could do to promote and recognize some of the to promote and recognize some of the to promote and recognize some of the best podcasts in our space because it's best podcasts in our space because it's best podcasts in our space because it's gotten to the point you know when I gotten to the point you know when I gotten to the point you know when I think back 10 years ago it was like oh think back 10 years ago it was like oh think back 10 years ago it was like oh there's this one bootstrapped podcast there's this one bootstrapped podcast there's this one bootstrapped podcast and then a couple years later it's like and then a couple years later it's like and then a couple years later it's like oh there's another there's two there's oh there's another there's two there's oh there's another there's two there's three well now there literally dozens three well now there literally dozens three well now there literally dozens and there's different formats of two and there's different formats of two and there's different formats of two Founders talking or there's interviews Founders talking or there's interviews Founders talking or there's interviews or there's a mix of those there's or there's a mix of those there's or there's a mix of those there's education there's all types of um pretty education there's all types of um pretty education there's all types of um pretty amazing content being pushed out for amazing content being pushed out for amazing content being pushed out for free on a weekly basis um I should know free on a weekly basis um I should know free on a weekly basis um I should know I'm subscribed to uh way too many of I'm subscribed to uh way too many of I'm subscribed to uh way too many of them I think I'm tipping the scales them I think I'm tipping the scales them I think I'm tipping the scales right now at close to 50 podcasts not right now at close to 50 podcasts not right now at close to 50 podcasts not all in the bootstrapping space but all in the bootstrapping space but all in the bootstrapping space but there's just a plethora of really solid there's just a plethora of really solid there's just a plethora of really solid information that's coming out and so information that's coming out and so information that's coming out and so through microf we wanted to put together through microf we wanted to put together through microf we wanted to put together the SAS podcast Awards which recognize

the SAS podcast Awards which recognize the SAS podcast Awards which recognize the best bootstrapped and mostly the best bootstrapped and mostly the best bootstrapped and mostly bootstrap SAS podcasts out there and we bootstrap SAS podcasts out there and we bootstrap SAS podcasts out there and we took nominations about I think it was took nominations about I think it was took nominations about I think it was five or six weeks ago before the five or six weeks ago before the five or six weeks ago before the holidays then we had uh a boote off uh holidays then we had uh a boote off uh holidays then we had uh a boote off uh in the last couple weeks of December and in the last couple weeks of December and in the last couple weeks of December and we are here to talk about the top we are here to talk about the top we are here to talk about the top nominees today and recognize the winners nominees today and recognize the winners nominees today and recognize the winners this is the big announcement people have this is the big announcement people have this is the big announcement people have been waiting for and um I'm going to been waiting for and um I'm going to been waiting for and um I'm going to have a little uh special surprise have a little uh special surprise have a little uh special surprise special guest after that so let's Dive special guest after that so let's Dive special guest after that so let's Dive Right In to our first category which is Right In to our first category which is Right In to our first category which is the best company or founder Story the the best company or founder Story the the best company or founder Story the nominees are John Buddha and Justin nominees are John Buddha and Justin nominees are John Buddha and Justin Jackson with the story of transistor.fm Jackson with the story of transistor.fm Jackson with the story of transistor.fm Lyn Tha with key values Jordan Gall Lyn Tha with key values Jordan Gall Lyn Tha with key values Jordan Gall story of cart hook Peter levels story of cart hook Peter levels story of cart hook Peter levels levels.io and Matt wiing with the story levels.io and Matt wiing with the story levels.io and Matt wiing with the story of summit and the winner is voted on by of summit and the winner is voted on by of summit and the winner is voted on by you transistor.fm John Buddha and Justin you transistor.fm John Buddha and Justin you transistor.fm John Buddha and Justin Jackson so congratulations s they've Jackson so congratulations s they've Jackson so congratulations s they've been telling their story for several been telling their story for several been telling their story for several years on their podcast years on their podcast years on their podcast um there's so I'm trying to keep so many um there's so I'm trying to keep so many um there's so I'm trying to keep so many things in my head uh build your SAS things in my head uh build your SAS things in my head uh build your SAS almost said building your SAS but almost said building your SAS but almost said building your SAS but they've been telling their story on they've been telling their story on they've been telling their story on build your SAS for several years and if build your SAS for several years and if build your SAS for several years and if you haven't checked it out it's you haven't checked it out it's you haven't checked it out it's definitely something uh you it's a definitely something uh you it's a definitely something uh you it's a podcast that was nominated for a lot of podcast that was nominated for a lot of podcast that was nominated for a lot of of uh a lot of the Sass podcast Awards of uh a lot of the Sass podcast Awards of uh a lot of the Sass podcast Awards so um in several of the categories we so um in several of the categories we so um in several of the categories we have four categories today I probably have four categories today I probably have four categories today I probably should have kicked that off um best

should have kicked that off um best should have kicked that off um best company or founder story which we've company or founder story which we've company or founder story which we've just done then we'll look at the best just done then we'll look at the best just done then we'll look at the best episode next then the best host and the episode next then the best host and the episode next then the best host and the best podcast and again those are best podcast and again those are best podcast and again those are nominated and voted on by folks like nominated and voted on by folks like nominated and voted on by folks like yourself in this uh in this community yourself in this uh in this community yourself in this uh in this community next category is the best next category is the best next category is the best episode uh nominees are code Story episode uh nominees are code Story episode uh nominees are code Story season 2 episode 7 Ryan graciano from season 2 episode 7 Ryan graciano from season 2 episode 7 Ryan graciano from credit Karma I think I actually use credit Karma I think I actually use credit Karma I think I actually use Credit Karma software social the Credit Karma software social the Credit Karma software social the feelings episode that was a good one if feelings episode that was a good one if feelings episode that was a good one if you haven't listened to that you need to you haven't listened to that you need to you haven't listened to that you need to check it out I'm a big fan that show check it out I'm a big fan that show check it out I'm a big fan that show good leadership is ongoing work bold good leadership is ongoing work bold good leadership is ongoing work bold business podcast with Jess duel Indie business podcast with Jess duel Indie business podcast with Jess duel Indie hackers writing code to sell $200,000 a hackers writing code to sell $200,000 a hackers writing code to sell $200,000 a month of cookies with Sam eaten of crave month of cookies with Sam eaten of crave month of cookies with Sam eaten of crave cookie and the last nominee is the SAS cookie and the last nominee is the SAS cookie and the last nominee is the SAS podcast member space bootstrapping a podcast member space bootstrapping a podcast member space bootstrapping a profitable SAS company with Ryan benck profitable SAS company with Ryan benck profitable SAS company with Ryan benck and Ward Sandler and and Ward Sandler and and Ward Sandler and the winner is Indie hackers writing code the winner is Indie hackers writing code the winner is Indie hackers writing code to sell $200,000 a month of cookies with to sell $200,000 a month of cookies with to sell $200,000 a month of cookies with Sam Eaton of crave cookie so Sam Eaton of crave cookie so Sam Eaton of crave cookie so congratulations to Sam and to Indie congratulations to Sam and to Indie congratulations to Sam and to Indie hackers and to Courtland for winning hackers and to Courtland for winning hackers and to Courtland for winning that best episode award for that best episode award for that best episode award for 2021 all right next category is the best 2021 all right next category is the best 2021 all right next category is the best host and we have five nominees in this host and we have five nominees in this host and we have five nominees in this category Michelle Hansen and Colleen category Michelle Hansen and Colleen category Michelle Hansen and Colleen schnettler of the social software social schnettler of the social software social schnettler of the social software social podcast Matt Wallock from the SAS story podcast Matt Wallock from the SAS story podcast Matt Wallock from the SAS story in the making Courtland Allen from Indie in the making Courtland Allen from Indie in the making Courtland Allen from Indie hackers Justin Jackson and John Buddha hackers Justin Jackson and John Buddha hackers Justin Jackson and John Buddha from Builder SAS and Ben orstein and

from Builder SAS and Ben orstein and from Builder SAS and Ben orstein and derck Rymer the art of product derck Rymer the art of product derck Rymer the art of product podcast and the winner of the best host podcast and the winner of the best host podcast and the winner of the best host is courand Allen of Indie hackers that's is courand Allen of Indie hackers that's is courand Allen of Indie hackers that's the best episode graphic but luckily the best episode graphic but luckily the best episode graphic but luckily luckily it's the same host so uh luckily it's the same host so uh luckily it's the same host so uh congratulations to courand and Indie congratulations to courand and Indie congratulations to courand and Indie hackers this is uh it's you know hackers this is uh it's you know hackers this is uh it's you know obviously courtland's been doing his obviously courtland's been doing his obviously courtland's been doing his podcast in fact Indie hackers podcast in fact Indie hackers podcast in fact Indie hackers really formed out of the podcast he really formed out of the podcast he really formed out of the podcast he started building an audience through the started building an audience through the started building an audience through the inders podcast and used that as kind of inders podcast and used that as kind of inders podcast and used that as kind of the lever or the the basis on which to the lever or the the basis on which to the lever or the the basis on which to build this community of of Indie build this community of of Indie build this community of of Indie hackers.com so congratulations uh to him hackers.com so congratulations uh to him hackers.com so congratulations uh to him he's been doing interviews for several he's been doing interviews for several he's been doing interviews for several years and you know obviously a top-notch years and you know obviously a top-notch years and you know obviously a top-notch host so um I'm proud to uh have them as host so um I'm proud to uh have them as host so um I'm proud to uh have them as the best SAS podcast this year and the best SAS podcast this year and the best SAS podcast this year and finally our fourth and final category finally our fourth and final category finally our fourth and final category the best picture category if you will is the best picture category if you will is the best picture category if you will is best podcast best podcast best podcast and our five nominees are the art of and our five nominees are the art of and our five nominees are the art of product podcast Indie hackers Builder product podcast Indie hackers Builder product podcast Indie hackers Builder sass bootstrapped sass bootstrapped sass bootstrapped web and software web and software web and software social and without a drum roll s's drum social and without a drum roll s's drum social and without a drum roll s's drum roll I wish we had a really nice sound roll I wish we had a really nice sound roll I wish we had a really nice sound effect the winner of the best podcast is effect the winner of the best podcast is effect the winner of the best podcast is the art of product with derck Rymer and the art of product with derck Rymer and the art of product with derck Rymer and Ben orstein Ben orstein Ben orstein congratulations gentlemen and I actually congratulations gentlemen and I actually congratulations gentlemen and I actually have a extra special uh surprise to have a extra special uh surprise to have a extra special uh surprise to bring on here we are going to do a live bring on here we are going to do a live bring on here we are going to do a live Q&A Q&A Q&A impromptu um listener questions and you

impromptu um listener questions and you impromptu um listener questions and you are able to ask anything you'd like are able to ask anything you'd like are able to ask anything you'd like about the well you can ask about their about the well you can ask about their about the well you can ask about their businesses but honestly this is like an businesses but honestly this is like an businesses but honestly this is like an inside baseball podcast story and I inside baseball podcast story and I inside baseball podcast story and I really want this episode to focus on really want this episode to focus on really want this episode to focus on what Ben and Derek have built in the what Ben and Derek have built in the what Ben and Derek have built in the with the art of product podcast so I'd with the art of product podcast so I'd with the art of product podcast so I'd love to welcome the co-host Derrick love to welcome the co-host Derrick love to welcome the co-host Derrick Rymer co-founder of drip now the founder Rymer co-founder of drip now the founder Rymer co-founder of drip now the founder of Savvy Cal and Ben orenstein longtime of Savvy Cal and Ben orenstein longtime of Savvy Cal and Ben orenstein longtime host of several successful podcasts and host of several successful podcasts and host of several successful podcasts and the found co-founder of tupal gentlemen the found co-founder of tupal gentlemen the found co-founder of tupal gentlemen thanks for joining me today hello hello thanks for joining me today hello hello thanks for joining me today hello hello thanks for having us thanks for having thanks for having us thanks for having thanks for having us thanks for having us the sweet and sultry sounds of Derek us the sweet and sultry sounds of Derek us the sweet and sultry sounds of Derek ker and Ben orstein so this this has to ker and Ben orstein so this this has to ker and Ben orstein so this this has to be one of I'm imagining the just the be one of I'm imagining the just the be one of I'm imagining the just the highlights of not just 2021 but perhaps highlights of not just 2021 but perhaps highlights of not just 2021 but perhaps of the past decade for you guys is would of the past decade for you guys is would of the past decade for you guys is would that be an accurate that be an accurate that be an accurate assessment uh truly indeed yes and this assessment uh truly indeed yes and this assessment uh truly indeed yes and this is great we we we begged our listeners is great we we we begged our listeners is great we we we begged our listeners for this uh we spent a lot of air time for this uh we spent a lot of air time for this uh we spent a lot of air time uh asking for the votes we got out the uh asking for the votes we got out the uh asking for the votes we got out the vote this year uh we toppled the giant vote this year uh we toppled the giant vote this year uh we toppled the giant that is Courtland Allen and uh I that is Courtland Allen and uh I that is Courtland Allen and uh I couldn't be happier about it I love I couldn't be happier about it I love I couldn't be happier about it I love I couldn't be happier with your uh couldn't be happier with your uh couldn't be happier with your uh tongue-in-cheek tongue-in-cheek tongue-in-cheek sarcastic tone on Twitter arguing about sarcastic tone on Twitter arguing about sarcastic tone on Twitter arguing about how you know art a product deserved was how you know art a product deserved was how you know art a product deserved was great it was great so truly was a fight great it was great so truly was a fight great it was great so truly was a fight to the Finish so um that I just want to point out that I that I just want to point out that I find kind of hilarious which is so we find kind of hilarious which is so we find kind of hilarious which is so we won best podcast but not best hosts won best podcast but not best hosts won best podcast but not best hosts which is great because art of product

which is great because art of product which is great because art of product does not have any guests doesn't have does not have any guests doesn't have does not have any guests doesn't have any sponsors there's not even like intro any sponsors there's not even like intro any sponsors there's not even like intro music uh it's basically so it's like music uh it's basically so it's like music uh it's basically so it's like they like the podcast but not the hosts they like the podcast but not the hosts they like the podcast but not the hosts so there's something about the podcast so there's something about the podcast so there's something about the podcast that is not just me and Derek talking that is not just me and Derek talking that is not just me and Derek talking when in fact that's all the podcast is when in fact that's all the podcast is when in fact that's all the podcast is that people are into so I appreciate that people are into so I appreciate that people are into so I appreciate that it is that is a very uh Adept and that it is that is a very uh Adept and that it is that is a very uh Adept and astute observation Derek do you have any astute observation Derek do you have any astute observation Derek do you have any thoughts on that about why that I don't thoughts on that about why that I don't thoughts on that about why that I don't know I think I guess um I mean we have know I think I guess um I mean we have know I think I guess um I mean we have been making decently good radio I feel been making decently good radio I feel been making decently good radio I feel like with well I don't know everything's like with well I don't know everything's like with well I don't know everything's up to the right for tupal right but uh up to the right for tupal right but uh up to the right for tupal right but uh but making good radio with uh with level but making good radio with uh with level but making good radio with uh with level and with all my uh Trials of the last and with all my uh Trials of the last and with all my uh Trials of the last few years so maybe my stories precede my few years so maybe my stories precede my few years so maybe my stories precede my actual hosting abilities I don't know I actual hosting abilities I don't know I actual hosting abilities I don't know I see and I would say the success story of see and I would say the success story of see and I would say the success story of of both savy Cal and tupal is um I think of both savy Cal and tupal is um I think of both savy Cal and tupal is um I think something people been you know they've something people been you know they've something people been you know they've been rooting for you guys for a long been rooting for you guys for a long been rooting for you guys for a long time I mean back from so you know some time I mean back from so you know some time I mean back from so you know some folks may not know but uh Ben you hosted folks may not know but uh Ben you hosted folks may not know but uh Ben you hosted podcast called giant robots smashing podcast called giant robots smashing podcast called giant robots smashing into other giant robots is that right it into other giant robots is that right it into other giant robots is that right it was for thoughtbot and that was for yeah was for thoughtbot and that was for yeah was for thoughtbot and that was for yeah when there was a hundreds of episodes when there was a hundreds of episodes when there was a hundreds of episodes there and dererk joined you at a certain there and dererk joined you at a certain there and dererk joined you at a certain point you want to give us a little point you want to give us a little point you want to give us a little history lesson of what happened there history lesson of what happened there history lesson of what happened there yeah I uh hosted 239 episodes of that yeah I uh hosted 239 episodes of that yeah I uh hosted 239 episodes of that podcast W um over years it was weekly so podcast W um over years it was weekly so podcast W um over years it was weekly so whatever that is divided by 52 or so um whatever that is divided by 52 or so um whatever that is divided by 52 or so um yeah Derek so it started off as an yeah Derek so it started off as an yeah Derek so it started off as an interview format so I was interviewing interview format so I was interviewing interview format so I was interviewing programmers and then I kind of moved programmers and then I kind of moved programmers and then I kind of moved from being just a programmer to someone from being just a programmer to someone from being just a programmer to someone who was interested in SAS businesses and who was interested in SAS businesses and who was interested in SAS businesses and I I started a small SAS inside

I I started a small SAS inside I I started a small SAS inside thoughtbot um and as my interest turned thoughtbot um and as my interest turned thoughtbot um and as my interest turned more to that I started uh interviewing more to that I started uh interviewing more to that I started uh interviewing more business you people but then more business you people but then more business you people but then eventually started the show shifted as eventually started the show shifted as eventually started the show shifted as well as my interest changed and so I well as my interest changed and so I well as my interest changed and so I started talking to one of my colleagues started talking to one of my colleagues started talking to one of my colleagues Chris Tumi um for a good chunk of Chris Tumi um for a good chunk of Chris Tumi um for a good chunk of episodes in there as he was sort of episodes in there as he was sort of episodes in there as he was sort of doing the same thing and then towards doing the same thing and then towards doing the same thing and then towards the end of my tenure there um I invited the end of my tenure there um I invited the end of my tenure there um I invited Derrik on and he was my my co-host for Derrik on and he was my my co-host for Derrik on and he was my my co-host for uh something like 30 or 40 uh something like 30 or 40 uh something like 30 or 40 episodes yep and when you invited Derek episodes yep and when you invited Derek episodes yep and when you invited Derek on I've heard this story once but was on I've heard this story once but was on I've heard this story once but was Derek like heck yes Ben I would love to Derek like heck yes Ben I would love to Derek like heck yes Ben I would love to come on and and be your co-host no he come on and and be your co-host no he come on and and be your co-host no he was much dumber than that was much dumber than that was much dumber than that actually as Derrik is to be no so I I actually as Derrik is to be no so I I actually as Derrik is to be no so I I sent Derek an email because and this is sent Derek an email because and this is sent Derek an email because and this is this is the early days you were he was a this is the early days you were he was a this is the early days you were he was a drip at this point and I was like a fan drip at this point and I was like a fan drip at this point and I was like a fan and I wanted to be friends with him and and I wanted to be friends with him and and I wanted to be friends with him and like get to meet you and like get like get to meet you and like get like get to meet you and like get plugged into the microcom world and so plugged into the microcom world and so plugged into the microcom world and so like Derek was like partly my like my like Derek was like partly my like my like Derek was like partly my like my wedge uh I was like I gotta be friends wedge uh I was like I gotta be friends wedge uh I was like I gotta be friends with Derek and so I was like I'm gonna with Derek and so I was like I'm gonna with Derek and so I was like I'm gonna invite him on the podcast and have him invite him on the podcast and have him invite him on the podcast and have him co-host with me and so uh I did and he I co-host with me and so uh I did and he I co-host with me and so uh I did and he I sent him this nice email and he was like sent him this nice email and he was like sent him this nice email and he was like yeah it sounds really good but you know yeah it sounds really good but you know yeah it sounds really good but you know like we got a lot going on with trip like we got a lot going on with trip like we got a lot going on with trip right now and it's super busy so like right now and it's super busy so like right now and it's super busy so like I'm sorry I can't and I thought about it I'm sorry I can't and I thought about it I'm sorry I can't and I thought about it for a day or two and then I wrote him for a day or two and then I wrote him for a day or two and then I wrote him another email I was like yeah I get all another email I was like yeah I get all another email I was like yeah I get all that that all sounds reasonable but like that that all sounds reasonable but like that that all sounds reasonable but like maybe just do it anyway maybe just do it anyway maybe just do it anyway and he was like all right fine I'll try and he was like all right fine I'll try and he was like all right fine I'll try it and I was just kind of like you know it and I was just kind of like you know it and I was just kind of like you know do do it for short term it's really do do it for short term it's really do do it for short term it's really actually pretty easy like we have a actually pretty easy like we have a actually pretty easy like we have a producer it's not a big time commitment producer it's not a big time commitment producer it's not a big time commitment and uh fortunately I I convin him to and uh fortunately I I convin him to and uh fortunately I I convin him to change his mind yeah I think you could

change his mind yeah I think you could change his mind yeah I think you could probably see through you could see probably see through you could see probably see through you could see through my excuse making right like through my excuse making right like through my excuse making right like certainly things were busy but it was certainly things were busy but it was certainly things were busy but it was more of a grappling with my own impostor more of a grappling with my own impostor more of a grappling with my own impostor syndrome and like can I actually do this syndrome and like can I actually do this syndrome and like can I actually do this I don't feel like I didn't feel like it I don't feel like I didn't feel like it I don't feel like I didn't feel like it was something that NE necessarily came was something that NE necessarily came was something that NE necessarily came naturally to me and so I was really I naturally to me and so I was really I naturally to me and so I was really I was really nervous uh when I was first was really nervous uh when I was first was really nervous uh when I was first starting out and I I had only really starting out and I I had only really starting out and I I had only really been interviewed on a few other podcasts been interviewed on a few other podcasts been interviewed on a few other podcasts before that and they were like the before that and they were like the before that and they were like the podcasts that I listened to for years podcasts that I listened to for years podcasts that I listened to for years like I think I did a ruby Rogues episode like I think I did a ruby Rogues episode like I think I did a ruby Rogues episode and felt like a complete impostor on and felt like a complete impostor on and felt like a complete impostor on that because it's like I've been that because it's like I've been that because it's like I've been listening to these hosts for many years listening to these hosts for many years listening to these hosts for many years and now I'm G to be on this panel what and now I'm G to be on this panel what and now I'm G to be on this panel what does that even mean so I was grappling does that even mean so I was grappling does that even mean so I was grappling with all of that but I was I appreciated with all of that but I was I appreciated with all of that but I was I appreciated your persuasion skills your your second your persuasion skills your your second your persuasion skills your your second ask of like you might want to reconsider ask of like you might want to reconsider ask of like you might want to reconsider this it was it was effective nice yeah this it was it was effective nice yeah this it was it was effective nice yeah and it was just a part-time thing at and it was just a part-time thing at and it was just a part-time thing at first or not even part-time but wasn't first or not even part-time but wasn't first or not even part-time but wasn't it like hey let's try three or four it like hey let's try three or four it like hey let's try three or four episodes right that was your episodes right that was your episodes right that was your wedge think so yeah I think I pitched wedge think so yeah I think I pitched wedge think so yeah I think I pitched this I think I pitched it as a trial for this I think I pitched it as a trial for this I think I pitched it as a trial for like some number of episodes and then it like some number of episodes and then it like some number of episodes and then it just worked and so we kept going yeah just worked and so we kept going yeah just worked and so we kept going yeah that's great and then oh so we have a that's great and then oh so we have a that's great and then oh so we have a comment from YouTube and apparently comment from YouTube and apparently comment from YouTube and apparently folks want to hear an acceptance speech folks want to hear an acceptance speech folks want to hear an acceptance speech from the two of you for winning this from the two of you for winning this from the two of you for winning this award so it's it's all caps speech so as award so it's it's all caps speech so as award so it's it's all caps speech so as if they're if they're if they're call and any I I do actually feel all call and any I I do actually feel all call and any I I do actually feel all right I I do actually feel a lot of right I I do actually feel a lot of right I I do actually feel a lot of gratitude for the people that that voted gratitude for the people that that voted gratitude for the people that that voted for this I mean it's we we did a long for this I mean it's we we did a long for this I mean it's we we did a long pitch and we did it very pitch and we did it very pitch and we did it very tongue-and-cheek and very silly but like tongue-and-cheek and very silly but like tongue-and-cheek and very silly but like yeah there was there was a madeup yeah there was there was a madeup yeah there was there was a madeup internet award and we wanted it and

internet award and we wanted it and internet award and we wanted it and people were willing to like help us get people were willing to like help us get people were willing to like help us get there and it feels good like honestly I there and it feels good like honestly I there and it feels good like honestly I it's it it shouldn't feel this good to it's it it shouldn't feel this good to it's it it shouldn't feel this good to win a thing that was invented uh win a thing that was invented uh win a thing that was invented uh recently and you know was kind of has no recently and you know was kind of has no recently and you know was kind of has no tangible value I guess correctly um yes tangible value I guess correctly um yes tangible value I guess correctly um yes it's a madeup internet Award of course it's a madeup internet Award of course it's a madeup internet Award of course it has tangible value it has tangible value it has tangible value yeah yeah the bragging right the yeah yeah the bragging right the yeah yeah the bragging right the bragging right that's what it yeah to bragging right that's what it yeah to bragging right that's what it yeah to pretend aren't rights is foolish yeah pretend aren't rights is foolish yeah pretend aren't rights is foolish yeah every time I intro either of you for every time I intro either of you for every time I intro either of you for anything from now on in fact that should anything from now on in fact that should anything from now on in fact that should now be in your bio winner yeah winner of now be in your bio winner yeah winner of now be in your bio winner yeah winner of the of the 2021 SAS podcast Awards I the of the 2021 SAS podcast Awards I the of the 2021 SAS podcast Awards I need to talk to Xander with these I need to talk to Xander with these I need to talk to Xander with these I guess these are 2021 since we're guess these are 2021 since we're guess these are 2021 since we're announcing first week of January right announcing first week of January right announcing first week of January right oh so yeah 2021 SAS podcast Awards it's oh so yeah 2021 SAS podcast Awards it's oh so yeah 2021 SAS podcast Awards it's a big deal Jen Derek you have you have a big deal Jen Derek you have you have a big deal Jen Derek you have you have words of wisdom yeah I want to Echo that words of wisdom yeah I want to Echo that words of wisdom yeah I want to Echo that I mean it's it's um yeah a lot of I mean it's it's um yeah a lot of I mean it's it's um yeah a lot of gratitude like thank you to everyone who gratitude like thank you to everyone who gratitude like thank you to everyone who voted um and uh I think it's it's fun to voted um and uh I think it's it's fun to voted um and uh I think it's it's fun to to get these types of feedback to get these types of feedback to get these types of feedback mechanisms from time to time because one mechanisms from time to time because one mechanisms from time to time because one of the one of the weird things about of the one of the weird things about of the one of the weird things about podcasting is you know you record these podcasting is you know you record these podcasting is you know you record these episodes we sit down every week talk to episodes we sit down every week talk to episodes we sit down every week talk to each other drop our files in a Dropbox each other drop our files in a Dropbox each other drop our files in a Dropbox full full full our editors produce stitch them together our editors produce stitch them together our editors produce stitch them together put out an episode and then we can see put out an episode and then we can see put out an episode and then we can see many downloads happen but we you know many downloads happen but we you know many downloads happen but we you know don't often hear back directly from don't often hear back directly from don't often hear back directly from listeners I mean it's compared to the listeners I mean it's compared to the listeners I mean it's compared to the number of downloads it's we hear from

number of downloads it's we hear from number of downloads it's we hear from very few so this is just this is a very few so this is just this is a very few so this is just this is a really cool like um feedback loop of really cool like um feedback loop of really cool like um feedback loop of like oh people actually enjoy this and like oh people actually enjoy this and like oh people actually enjoy this and um and so yeah makes me makes me um and so yeah makes me makes me um and so yeah makes me makes me happy happy happy very do you when you guys get on the mic very do you when you guys get on the mic very do you when you guys get on the mic I'm curious do you do you feel like I'm curious do you do you feel like I'm curious do you do you feel like you're just talking to one another and you're just talking to one another and you're just talking to one another and and you just record it that way or do and you just record it that way or do and you just record it that way or do you think oh there are going to be you think oh there are going to be you think oh there are going to be several thousand people listening to several thousand people listening to several thousand people listening to this episode is that in the back of your this episode is that in the back of your this episode is that in the back of your mind it's somewhere in between for me mind it's somewhere in between for me mind it's somewhere in between for me it's definitely not as comfortable and it's definitely not as comfortable and it's definitely not as comfortable and like fully disclosed as a totally like fully disclosed as a totally like fully disclosed as a totally private conversation would be but I am private conversation would be but I am private conversation would be but I am sometimes surprised at how little the sometimes surprised at how little the sometimes surprised at how little the recording impacts me or like like how recording impacts me or like like how recording impacts me or like like how close to Natural we can kind of get like close to Natural we can kind of get like close to Natural we can kind of get like I think Derrick and I don't really shy I think Derrick and I don't really shy I think Derrick and I don't really shy from asking each other like kind of hard from asking each other like kind of hard from asking each other like kind of hard questions sometimes um and talking about questions sometimes um and talking about questions sometimes um and talking about highs and lows and like painful parts of highs and lows and like painful parts of highs and lows and like painful parts of of running our businesses so it's I of running our businesses so it's I of running our businesses so it's I can't fully get it out of my mind I'm can't fully get it out of my mind I'm can't fully get it out of my mind I'm not exactly the same as if I were just not exactly the same as if I were just not exactly the same as if I were just talking to Derek but um I try to get as talking to Derek but um I try to get as talking to Derek but um I try to get as close as possible because I feel like close as possible because I feel like close as possible because I feel like that's what makes it good I that's what that's what makes it good I that's what that's what makes it good I that's what makes it interesting to listen makes it interesting to listen makes it interesting to listen to yeah how about you Derek yeah I would to yeah how about you Derek yeah I would to yeah how about you Derek yeah I would say the same um I think we've the like say the same um I think we've the like say the same um I think we've the like the fur the longer we've done it the fur the longer we've done it the fur the longer we've done it definitely the more comfortable we've definitely the more comfortable we've definitely the more comfortable we've gotten with these types of conversations gotten with these types of conversations gotten with these types of conversations that we have and they they've so I think that we have and they they've so I think that we have and they they've so I think it took a little while for me to to it took a little while for me to to it took a little while for me to to Really settle in as most podcasts Really settle in as most podcasts Really settle in as most podcasts probably experience um but I do notice I probably experience um but I do notice I probably experience um but I do notice I and this often gets uh told to me by and this often gets uh told to me by and this often gets uh told to me by listeners too that like things often get listeners too that like things often get listeners too that like things often get the best right towards the end of the

the best right towards the end of the the best right towards the end of the episode so I think even even when we episode so I think even even when we episode so I think even even when we start out you know it's like it starts start out you know it's like it starts start out you know it's like it starts out maybe a little bit more rigid but by out maybe a little bit more rigid but by out maybe a little bit more rigid but by the end we're really getting into a into the end we're really getting into a into the end we're really getting into a into a flow state of of conversation and a flow state of of conversation and a flow state of of conversation and stuff yeah I can see that I've actually stuff yeah I can see that I've actually stuff yeah I can see that I've actually so I never used to do pre interviews at so I never used to do pre interviews at so I never used to do pre interviews at all or you know if I have a guest on all or you know if I have a guest on all or you know if I have a guest on Startup to the rest of us but I've Startup to the rest of us but I've Startup to the rest of us but I've started now for a 40-minute episode I started now for a 40-minute episode I started now for a 40-minute episode I schedule 75 minutes and for the first schedule 75 minutes and for the first schedule 75 minutes and for the first 1520 all we do is chat and I've I've 1520 all we do is chat and I've I've 1520 all we do is chat and I've I've started and then by the time it starts started and then by the time it starts started and then by the time it starts we're M you know whether I know them or we're M you know whether I know them or we're M you know whether I know them or not there's just a level of comfort and not there's just a level of comfort and not there's just a level of comfort and a level of um of kind of discourse a level of um of kind of discourse a level of um of kind of discourse that's going on so we have a question that's going on so we have a question that's going on so we have a question from the chat from Oren toy he says did from the chat from Oren toy he says did from the chat from Oren toy he says did Ben and Derek did you ever did the two Ben and Derek did you ever did the two Ben and Derek did you ever did the two of you ever consider starting a business of you ever consider starting a business of you ever consider starting a business together I have sort of had that in my together I have sort of had that in my together I have sort of had that in my mind for a long time um and I felt like mind for a long time um and I felt like mind for a long time um and I felt like for me being in the same place at the for me being in the same place at the for me being in the same place at the same time was was a deal breaker and so same time was was a deal breaker and so same time was was a deal breaker and so like if Derrick had lived in Boston I like if Derrick had lived in Boston I like if Derrick had lived in Boston I feel like I would have been like nagging feel like I would have been like nagging feel like I would have been like nagging him constantly to do something but like him constantly to do something but like him constantly to do something but like we just like we never in the same place we just like we never in the same place we just like we never in the same place at the same time and it never seemed at the same time and it never seemed at the same time and it never seemed like we were going to be and so I I kind like we were going to be and so I I kind like we were going to be and so I I kind of like had to rule that out because I'm of like had to rule that out because I'm of like had to rule that out because I'm I'm such an extrovert I couldn't I I'm such an extrovert I couldn't I I'm such an extrovert I couldn't I couldn't do like a fully remote thing I couldn't do like a fully remote thing I couldn't do like a fully remote thing I think it just wouldn't work for me think it just wouldn't work for me think it just wouldn't work for me me yeah I feel like I I mean definitely me yeah I feel like I I mean definitely me yeah I feel like I I mean definitely The more I've gotten to know Ben the The more I've gotten to know Ben the The more I've gotten to know Ben the more I'm like sold on his uh his chops more I'm like sold on his uh his chops more I'm like sold on his uh his chops as a founder and would be you know as a founder and would be you know as a founder and would be you know honored to be on a founding team with honored to be on a founding team with honored to be on a founding team with him but I think it's been kind of a him but I think it's been kind of a him but I think it's been kind of a matter of timing um of like it just you

matter of timing um of like it just you matter of timing um of like it just you know we've kind of staggered our our know we've kind of staggered our our know we've kind of staggered our our Journeys it's funny how I I've want been Journeys it's funny how I I've want been Journeys it's funny how I I've want been wanting to do this actually map out kind wanting to do this actually map out kind wanting to do this actually map out kind of the timeline of since we started of the timeline of since we started of the timeline of since we started podcasting together to see because when podcasting together to see because when podcasting together to see because when we started out I was still at drip but we started out I was still at drip but we started out I was still at drip but it was post acquisition and then I was it was post acquisition and then I was it was post acquisition and then I was starting level and in that time you left starting level and in that time you left starting level and in that time you left thoughtbot and then you were like riding thoughtbot and then you were like riding thoughtbot and then you were like riding some hasal for a while working for a some hasal for a while working for a some hasal for a while working for a company and then you did your company and then you did your company and then you did your refactoring rails so like there was uh refactoring rails so like there was uh refactoring rails so like there was uh we were just kind of uh flip-flopping we were just kind of uh flip-flopping we were just kind of uh flip-flopping between like traditional employment and between like traditional employment and between like traditional employment and building startups and stuff and so it's building startups and stuff and so it's building startups and stuff and so it's kind of a kind of a staggered kind of a kind of a staggered kind of a kind of a staggered Journey that was my over here Journey that was my over here Journey that was my over here Boston yeah no no doubt once this uh Co Boston yeah no no doubt once this uh Co Boston yeah no no doubt once this uh Co mad is done mad is done mad is done the it was so remember four years ago the it was so remember four years ago the it was so remember four years ago when I asked you to coost a podcast with when I asked you to coost a podcast with when I asked you to coost a podcast with me it was really to uh enable to me to me it was really to uh enable to me to me it was really to uh enable to me to bring you to Boston and be a founder of bring you to Boston and be a founder of bring you to Boston and be a founder of a product H that's great so I'm curious a product H that's great so I'm curious a product H that's great so I'm curious I mean the the podcast has followed the I mean the the podcast has followed the I mean the the podcast has followed the two of you as you've just said I mean two of you as you've just said I mean two of you as you've just said I mean Derek was Derek was Derek was essentially um co-founder of drip and essentially um co-founder of drip and essentially um co-founder of drip and had sold it by the time he was you know had sold it by the time he was you know had sold it by the time he was you know he was still working at drip but he was he was still working at drip but he was he was still working at drip but he was essentially like a you know a VP of essentially like a you know a VP of essentially like a you know a VP of engineering or what what whatever your engineering or what what whatever your engineering or what what whatever your title was there and then you left it and title was there and then you left it and title was there and then you left it and you started uh level and then you're you started uh level and then you're you started uh level and then you're doing saval and during that time Ben doing saval and during that time Ben doing saval and during that time Ben also went through he was employed by two also went through he was employed by two also went through he was employed by two different companies he did uh what I different companies he did uh what I different companies he did uh what I would call more of an info product or would call more of an info product or would call more of an info product or training course um with your refactoring training course um with your refactoring training course um with your refactoring rail stuff and then um obviously you

rail stuff and then um obviously you rail stuff and then um obviously you know tupal software products so really a know tupal software products so really a know tupal software products so really a wide variety of things to talk about on wide variety of things to talk about on wide variety of things to talk about on what what most of us would normally what what most of us would normally what what most of us would normally categorize at Art of product is like hey categorize at Art of product is like hey categorize at Art of product is like hey this is a like it's a software SAS this is a like it's a software SAS this is a like it's a software SAS startup podcast but you've done a lot of startup podcast but you've done a lot of startup podcast but you've done a lot of stuff that really isn't like I'm the stuff that really isn't like I'm the stuff that really isn't like I'm the founder of a SAS prod so how I guess founder of a SAS prod so how I guess founder of a SAS prod so how I guess what's your take on that and and how do what's your take on that and and how do what's your take on that and and how do you think it has stayed interesting even you think it has stayed interesting even you think it has stayed interesting even when you're fully employed you know when you're fully employed you know when you're fully employed you know you're working for someone else or you're working for someone else or you're working for someone else or you're doing an info product that has you're doing an info product that has you're doing an info product that has nothing to do with SAS why do you think nothing to do with SAS why do you think nothing to do with SAS why do you think that you obviously have had chemistry that you obviously have had chemistry that you obviously have had chemistry and and the the podcast has been good and and the the podcast has been good and and the the podcast has been good the you know the whole time how do you the you know the whole time how do you the you know the whole time how do you think you've been able to to keep that think you've been able to to keep that think you've been able to to keep that up I actually feel like the variety is up I actually feel like the variety is up I actually feel like the variety is kind of interesting on its own like kind of interesting on its own like kind of interesting on its own like Derrick and I will sometimes joke like Derrick and I will sometimes joke like Derrick and I will sometimes joke like when one of us is struggling or like when one of us is struggling or like when one of us is struggling or like starting a new thing or or blowing starting a new thing or or blowing starting a new thing or or blowing something up it's like well it's gonna something up it's like well it's gonna something up it's like well it's gonna make good radio and like it actually to make good radio and like it actually to make good radio and like it actually to me the change I think is is actually me the change I think is is actually me the change I think is is actually kind of a good ingredient to it um if we kind of a good ingredient to it um if we kind of a good ingredient to it um if we had just gone directly to a successful had just gone directly to a successful had just gone directly to a successful thing and then like we're working on the thing and then like we're working on the thing and then like we're working on the same product for years I actually think same product for years I actually think same product for years I actually think that would probably get that would have that would probably get that would have that would probably get that would have the biggest danger of kind of getting the biggest danger of kind of getting the biggest danger of kind of getting stale or or less interesting week to stale or or less interesting week to stale or or less interesting week to week so I think like one of us is going week so I think like one of us is going week so I think like one of us is going to have to start failing soon um so to to have to start failing soon um so to to have to start failing soon um so to to address that to address that to address that I was gonna ask Ben I mean obviously I was gonna ask Ben I mean obviously I was gonna ask Ben I mean obviously keep keep going dere sorry there's a keep keep going dere sorry there's a keep keep going dere sorry there's a delay yeah no I was just gonna say like delay yeah no I was just gonna say like delay yeah no I was just gonna say like um that's what was one of the Silver um that's what was one of the Silver um that's what was one of the Silver Linings of the the kind of level Linings of the the kind of level Linings of the the kind of level timeline where it was it was grueling it timeline where it was it was grueling it timeline where it was it was grueling it was really tough personally mentally as was really tough personally mentally as was really tough personally mentally as a Founder but I knew like the

a Founder but I knew like the a Founder but I knew like the opportunities to talk about the ways opportunities to talk about the ways opportunities to talk about the ways that a startup can go wrong and do that that a startup can go wrong and do that that a startup can go wrong and do that on the podcast and do that on the blog on the podcast and do that on the blog on the podcast and do that on the blog were going to be you know that was going were going to be you know that was going were going to be you know that was going to be a nice contribution to the to be a nice contribution to the to be a nice contribution to the community so there have definitely been community so there have definitely been community so there have definitely been times where I have felt like times where I have felt like times where I have felt like you know like showing up on the mic you know like showing up on the mic you know like showing up on the mic every week was was really difficult every week was was really difficult every week was was really difficult because I didn't feel like things were because I didn't feel like things were because I didn't feel like things were going really well but um I also knew going really well but um I also knew going really well but um I also knew that that is that's often the most that that is that's often the most that that is that's often the most helpful stuff for for people to hear and helpful stuff for for people to hear and helpful stuff for for people to hear and um and so that helps with my motivation um and so that helps with my motivation um and so that helps with my motivation and I just try to keep that in mind you and I just try to keep that in mind you and I just try to keep that in mind you know as I'm doing know as I'm doing know as I'm doing it yeah and I think that brings up a it yeah and I think that brings up a it yeah and I think that brings up a point like a lot of most podcasts you point like a lot of most podcasts you point like a lot of most podcasts you know last seven episodes or 10 episodes know last seven episodes or 10 episodes know last seven episodes or 10 episodes um and especially the kind of the ones um and especially the kind of the ones um and especially the kind of the ones without Two Hosts right those ones tend without Two Hosts right those ones tend without Two Hosts right those ones tend to to really go so I'm curious if that to to really go so I'm curious if that to to really go so I'm curious if that well I guess the the real question is if well I guess the the real question is if well I guess the the real question is if you could name one thing of how how have you could name one thing of how how have you could name one thing of how how have you you know done 255 episodes of this you you know done 255 episodes of this you you know done 255 episodes of this podcast plus another 30 to 250 of of the podcast plus another 30 to 250 of of the podcast plus another 30 to 250 of of the other one depending on you know which other one depending on you know which other one depending on you know which which person I'm looking at I mean how which person I'm looking at I mean how which person I'm looking at I mean how how do you feel like you've been able to how do you feel like you've been able to how do you feel like you've been able to maintain that level of maintain that level of maintain that level of consistency we actually talked about consistency we actually talked about consistency we actually talked about this a little bit recently um on our this a little bit recently um on our this a little bit recently um on our product where for some reason podcasting product where for some reason podcasting product where for some reason podcasting does not really feel like work to me does not really feel like work to me does not really feel like work to me like when I see the um aop calendar slot like when I see the um aop calendar slot like when I see the um aop calendar slot I'm like oh I don't really have much to I'm like oh I don't really have much to I'm like oh I don't really have much to do today I'm just doing the podcast in do today I'm just doing the podcast in do today I'm just doing the podcast in the morning and then some work in the the morning and then some work in the the morning and then some work in the afternoon and it feels like kind of easy afternoon and it feels like kind of easy afternoon and it feels like kind of easy and I think part part of that is that and I think part part of that is that and I think part part of that is that we've outsourced all the parts that are we've outsourced all the parts that are we've outsourced all the parts that are not fun so we use podcast motor uh which

not fun so we use podcast motor uh which not fun so we use podcast motor uh which has been great for us where like Derrick has been great for us where like Derrick has been great for us where like Derrick and I record and then drop the files in and I record and then drop the files in and I record and then drop the files in a Dropbox and then a week later an a Dropbox and then a week later an a Dropbox and then a week later an episode comes out with you know notes episode comes out with you know notes episode comes out with you know notes and editing and all that stuff so like I and editing and all that stuff so like I and editing and all that stuff so like I only think about the podcast for like a only think about the podcast for like a only think about the podcast for like a little bit before we record and then little bit before we record and then little bit before we record and then while we're recording and and that's it while we're recording and and that's it while we're recording and and that's it um and just talking about what's going um and just talking about what's going um and just talking about what's going on and asking each other interesting on and asking each other interesting on and asking each other interesting questions and trying to have good questions and trying to have good questions and trying to have good discussions just it's it's mostly fun discussions just it's it's mostly fun discussions just it's it's mostly fun honestly it doesn't feel like a honestly it doesn't feel like a honestly it doesn't feel like a SLO yeah it's become firmly a habit by SLO yeah it's become firmly a habit by SLO yeah it's become firmly a habit by this point for me and I think it it this point for me and I think it it this point for me and I think it it helps having the accountability of helps having the accountability of helps having the accountability of having a co-host you know if I was having a co-host you know if I was having a co-host you know if I was trying to like do a blogging habit or trying to like do a blogging habit or trying to like do a blogging habit or something and I was just just on my own something and I was just just on my own something and I was just just on my own one it would take a lot more time like one it would take a lot more time like one it would take a lot more time like writing blog posts you know six to eight writing blog posts you know six to eight writing blog posts you know six to eight hours on average for me I feel like and hours on average for me I feel like and hours on average for me I feel like and the podcasts I mean I intentionally the podcasts I mean I intentionally the podcasts I mean I intentionally don't do a ton of pre-preparation I kind don't do a ton of pre-preparation I kind don't do a ton of pre-preparation I kind of drop notes in a file throughout the of drop notes in a file throughout the of drop notes in a file throughout the week to like oh this could be week to like oh this could be week to like oh this could be interesting to talk about just little interesting to talk about just little interesting to talk about just little breadcrumbs for myself but other than breadcrumbs for myself but other than breadcrumbs for myself but other than that I don't I don't do a ton of prep that I don't I don't do a ton of prep that I don't I don't do a ton of prep and that's partially just to make this and that's partially just to make this and that's partially just to make this sustainable because I'm trying to build sustainable because I'm trying to build sustainable because I'm trying to build a company too you know um but I think we a company too you know um but I think we a company too you know um but I think we we managed to draw enough out of each we managed to draw enough out of each we managed to draw enough out of each other so it stays interesting but other so it stays interesting but other so it stays interesting but without a huge uh a huge time commitment without a huge uh a huge time commitment without a huge uh a huge time commitment I think the the the co-host thing is I think the the the co-host thing is I think the the the co-host thing is underappreciated earli perhaps like I underappreciated earli perhaps like I underappreciated earli perhaps like I don't think I appreciated it until you don't think I appreciated it until you don't think I appreciated it until you brought it up just now um yeah if I had brought it up just now um yeah if I had brought it up just now um yeah if I had I would never be able to Su succeed at a I would never be able to Su succeed at a I would never be able to Su succeed at a solo podcast for very long in fact I've solo podcast for very long in fact I've solo podcast for very long in fact I've started a couple and they usually make started a couple and they usually make started a couple and they usually make it like six or seven episodes um right it like six or seven episodes um right it like six or seven episodes um right but something about the fact that like I but something about the fact that like I but something about the fact that like I have this appointment with a person and have this appointment with a person and have this appointment with a person and we're going to do it together and like

we're going to do it together and like we're going to do it together and like if nothing else I'm catching up with if nothing else I'm catching up with if nothing else I'm catching up with Derek and like seeing how he's doing and Derek and like seeing how he's doing and Derek and like seeing how he's doing and like talking about what I've been doing like talking about what I've been doing like talking about what I've been doing and it also sometimes makes good podcast and it also sometimes makes good podcast and it also sometimes makes good podcast content and that's that's nice too right content and that's that's nice too right content and that's that's nice too right yeah it's really nice that a casual I yeah it's really nice that a casual I yeah it's really nice that a casual I mean you guys it feels very natural and mean you guys it feels very natural and mean you guys it feels very natural and that just a casual conversation between that just a casual conversation between that just a casual conversation between two people is usually not that two people is usually not that two people is usually not that interesting but between folks like interesting but between folks like interesting but between folks like yourself and all the other nominees yourself and all the other nominees yourself and all the other nominees frankly that those conversations are frankly that those conversations are frankly that those conversations are pretty captivating to lot have no oh the pretty captivating to lot have no oh the pretty captivating to lot have no oh the shots fired oh okay so we have a couple shots fired oh okay so we have a couple shots fired oh okay so we have a couple more uh questions from the listen or more uh questions from the listen or more uh questions from the listen or from the audience Devon fit Simmons says from the audience Devon fit Simmons says from the audience Devon fit Simmons says have either Ben or dererk focused on have either Ben or dererk focused on have either Ben or dererk focused on growing the podcast audience or have you growing the podcast audience or have you growing the podcast audience or have you just kind of let it build just kind of let it build just kind of let it build naturally we've I don't occasionally we naturally we've I don't occasionally we naturally we've I don't occasionally we talk about it we like look at the talk about it we like look at the talk about it we like look at the analytics and go um should we what could analytics and go um should we what could analytics and go um should we what could we do to make this go up and like the we do to make this go up and like the we do to make this go up and like the things that to do to grow it I feel like things that to do to grow it I feel like things that to do to grow it I feel like are mostly not things we're super are mostly not things we're super are mostly not things we're super interested in like it helps to have like interested in like it helps to have like interested in like it helps to have like famous guests come on but like Derrick famous guests come on but like Derrick famous guests come on but like Derrick and I kind of like talking to each other and I kind of like talking to each other and I kind of like talking to each other um and like I find we I don't quite um and like I find we I don't quite um and like I find we I don't quite enjoy the interview formats as as much enjoy the interview formats as as much enjoy the interview formats as as much as a host generally um and it's kind of as a host generally um and it's kind of as a host generally um and it's kind of a labor of love like the podcast is nice a labor of love like the podcast is nice a labor of love like the podcast is nice and that some people like do find our and that some people like do find our and that some people like do find our companies through it like it's it's been companies through it like it's it's been companies through it like it's it's been super helpful for that for sure like a super helpful for that for sure like a super helpful for that for sure like a lot of our I think I think a lot for lot of our I think I think a lot for lot of our I think I think a lot for both of us a lot of our early customers both of us a lot of our early customers both of us a lot of our early customers um initially were like podcast people um initially were like podcast people um initially were like podcast people and it helps people follow the journey and it helps people follow the journey and it helps people follow the journey so there's certainly like business so there's certainly like business so there's certainly like business benefits to it but in a way I think if benefits to it but in a way I think if benefits to it but in a way I think if our AUD like we don't I don't check the our AUD like we don't I don't check the our AUD like we don't I don't check the analytics often and I'm an analytics analytics often and I'm an analytics analytics often and I'm an analytics Checker like I I like looking at the

Checker like I I like looking at the Checker like I I like looking at the numbers but for for other product I'm numbers but for for other product I'm numbers but for for other product I'm just kind of like yeah it's it hovers just kind of like yeah it's it hovers just kind of like yeah it's it hovers around where it hovers and like it's I around where it hovers and like it's I around where it hovers and like it's I sort of just don't care that much for sort of just don't care that much for sort of just don't care that much for some reason about the podcast ER thoughts no yeah that that captures ER thoughts no yeah that that captures it pretty well I think it pretty well I think it pretty well I think um yeah I think the guest having guests um yeah I think the guest having guests um yeah I think the guest having guests has been the there's been certain points has been the there's been certain points has been the there's been certain points where we have some a season where we where we have some a season where we where we have some a season where we have more guests on and things kind of have more guests on and things kind of have more guests on and things kind of step up a little bit on the on the like step up a little bit on the on the like step up a little bit on the on the like downloads graph but it doesn't feel yeah downloads graph but it doesn't feel yeah downloads graph but it doesn't feel yeah it always feels like a deviation from it always feels like a deviation from it always feels like a deviation from the format that our listeners really the format that our listeners really the format that our listeners really enjoy the most and so I think that's enjoy the most and so I think that's enjoy the most and so I think that's where the struggle has been like do we where the struggle has been like do we where the struggle has been like do we want to that on a regular basis and I want to that on a regular basis and I want to that on a regular basis and I don't don't think either of us have felt don't don't think either of us have felt don't don't think either of us have felt particularly motivated to like it's not particularly motivated to like it's not particularly motivated to like it's not worth the potential audience gain to worth the potential audience gain to worth the potential audience gain to change up the format like that it could change up the format like that it could change up the format like that it could be also like this is a blind spot like be also like this is a blind spot like be also like this is a blind spot like we're just being dumb and like there' we're just being dumb and like there' we're just being dumb and like there' like be smart promotion things that like like be smart promotion things that like like be smart promotion things that like any Savvy marketer would be doing so any Savvy marketer would be doing so any Savvy marketer would be doing so don't take this as like prescriptive don't take this as like prescriptive don't take this as like prescriptive like just because we do it this way like just because we do it this way like just because we do it this way doesn't mean it's actually good I mean doesn't mean it's actually good I mean doesn't mean it's actually good I mean in man in my experience there there in man in my experience there there in man in my experience there there really is not a silver bull over growing really is not a silver bull over growing really is not a silver bull over growing podcast audience aside from having podcast audience aside from having podcast audience aside from having guests having them promoted having these guests having them promoted having these guests having them promoted having these big names on which is exactly what big names on which is exactly what big names on which is exactly what you're kind of like eh don't really want you're kind of like eh don't really want you're kind of like eh don't really want to do that you know and that's that's to do that you know and that's that's to do that you know and that's that's the beauty of what much like a bootstrap the beauty of what much like a bootstrap the beauty of what much like a bootstrap business you have a podcast that is business you have a podcast that is business you have a podcast that is something that you love and you enjoy something that you love and you enjoy something that you love and you enjoy and so you have the you don't H it and so you have the you don't H it and so you have the you don't H it doesn't have to be um the entrepreneur doesn't have to be um the entrepreneur doesn't have to be um the entrepreneur on fire or you know uh I'm trying what's on fire or you know uh I'm trying what's on fire or you know uh I'm trying what's it guy just sold to Spotify you know it guy just sold to Spotify you know it guy just sold to Spotify you know these these massive you know hundred these these massive you know hundred these these massive you know hundred million dollar um podcasts it's like

million dollar um podcasts it's like million dollar um podcasts it's like that's not your goal and the pressure to that's not your goal and the pressure to that's not your goal and the pressure to do that could could could either of you do that could could could either of you do that could could could either of you execute on that yeah probably you know I execute on that yeah probably you know I execute on that yeah probably you know I mean you're building startups that are mean you're building startups that are mean you're building startups that are successful and take a lot of hard work successful and take a lot of hard work successful and take a lot of hard work and a lot of focus and if you focus on and a lot of focus and if you focus on and a lot of focus and if you focus on the podcast that much it would it would the podcast that much it would it would the podcast that much it would it would probably grow and be really interesting probably grow and be really interesting probably grow and be really interesting uh or or you know have really like large uh or or you know have really like large uh or or you know have really like large numbers but um and that's not your goal numbers but um and that's not your goal numbers but um and that's not your goal it's It's a Grind like do you want that it's It's a Grind like do you want that it's It's a Grind like do you want that to be your job I think you know and both to be your job I think you know and both to be your job I think you know and both of you are kind of saying No this is of you are kind of saying No this is of you are kind of saying No this is this is a fun labor of love that also this is a fun labor of love that also this is a fun labor of love that also serves some business purpose but serves some business purpose but serves some business purpose but realistically you guys have been doing realistically you guys have been doing realistically you guys have been doing it when it didn't serve a business it when it didn't serve a business it when it didn't serve a business purpose when you were working a purpose when you were working a purpose when you were working a full-time job and it didn't benefit you full-time job and it didn't benefit you full-time job and it didn't benefit you at all other then for probably a little at all other then for probably a little at all other then for probably a little bit of accountability and just the bit of accountability and just the bit of accountability and just the ability to catch up with one another ability to catch up with one another ability to catch up with one another right all rightt there's a great other right all rightt there's a great other right all rightt there's a great other benefit too where I'll like go to benefit too where I'll like go to benefit too where I'll like go to microcom or just like talking to people microcom or just like talking to people microcom or just like talking to people on Twitter and like they've listened to on Twitter and like they've listened to on Twitter and like they've listened to the podcast it's like they're already the podcast it's like they're already the podcast it's like they're already like up to speed on everything which is like up to speed on everything which is like up to speed on everything which is kind of fun it's like they have so much kind of fun it's like they have so much kind of fun it's like they have so much context on things and people will context on things and people will context on things and people will usually apologize like they feel awkward usually apologize like they feel awkward usually apologize like they feel awkward about it where they're like oh it feels about it where they're like oh it feels about it where they're like oh it feels weird that I know you and you don't owe weird that I know you and you don't owe weird that I know you and you don't owe me and I'm like no that's actually me and I'm like no that's actually me and I'm like no that's actually that's the point that's the that's a that's the point that's the that's a that's the point that's the that's a feature that's great yeah um so I dig feature that's great yeah um so I dig feature that's great yeah um so I dig that that's a fun little friend Fringe that that's a fun little friend Fringe that that's a fun little friend Fringe benefit there too cool perk yeah last benefit there too cool perk yeah last benefit there too cool perk yeah last question as we're heading towards time a question as we're heading towards time a question as we're heading towards time a question from Cubit and uh they ask question from Cubit and uh they ask question from Cubit and uh they ask having listened from episode one oh I having listened from episode one oh I having listened from episode one oh I guess not a question a comment having guess not a question a comment having guess not a question a comment having listened from episode one of art of listened from episode one of art of listened from episode one of art of product I feel old when I find out they product I feel old when I find out they product I feel old when I find out they have done 155 episodes so I guess my have done 155 episodes so I guess my have done 155 episodes so I guess my question to you gentlemen is do you feel question to you gentlemen is do you feel question to you gentlemen is do you feel old having produced 55

old having produced 55 old having produced 55 episodes Derek do you feel old um no you episodes Derek do you feel old um no you episodes Derek do you feel old um no you know I I don't the funny thing about know I I don't the funny thing about know I I don't the funny thing about this is like sometimes I look at the this is like sometimes I look at the this is like sometimes I look at the numbers and it doesn't feel like it's numbers and it doesn't feel like it's numbers and it doesn't feel like it's been that long it's like longer than it been that long it's like longer than it been that long it's like longer than it feels like it has been to me I don't feels like it has been to me I don't feels like it has been to me I don't know if you feel the same way but like know if you feel the same way but like know if you feel the same way but like when I see 155 episodes plus 40 some odd when I see 155 episodes plus 40 some odd when I see 155 episodes plus 40 some odd giant robots like we're almost to 200 giant robots like we're almost to 200 giant robots like we're almost to 200 episodes together but which is a spans episodes together but which is a spans episodes together but which is a spans of many years but I don't know it it of many years but I don't know it it of many years but I don't know it it hasn't felt like a like a long slog I hasn't felt like a like a long slog I hasn't felt like a like a long slog I guess yeah same I think it comes back to guess yeah same I think it comes back to guess yeah same I think it comes back to that that sense that it's just not it's that that sense that it's just not it's that that sense that it's just not it's just kind of fun and like also to be just kind of fun and like also to be just kind of fun and like also to be fair whenever we don't feel like doing fair whenever we don't feel like doing fair whenever we don't feel like doing it we just skip it so that probably it we just skip it so that probably it we just skip it so that probably helps too yeah there's like that text on helps too yeah there's like that text on helps too yeah there's like that text on you know Thursday morning like you have you know Thursday morning like you have you know Thursday morning like you have anything for this week it's like not anything for this week it's like not anything for this week it's like not really let's do it next week I think really let's do it next week I think really let's do it next week I think that flexibility there that helps also that flexibility there that helps also that flexibility there that helps also make it kind of it's we never we rarely make it kind of it's we never we rarely make it kind of it's we never we rarely force ourselves to do it just because force ourselves to do it just because force ourselves to do it just because it's you know that's the day that might it's you know that's the day that might it's you know that's the day that might be part of the key for keeping it you be part of the key for keeping it you be part of the key for keeping it you know Fresh and Easy right yeah and know Fresh and Easy right yeah and know Fresh and Easy right yeah and avoiding burn out right having to force avoiding burn out right having to force avoiding burn out right having to force force content is never fun so well force content is never fun so well force content is never fun so well gentlemen Ben orstein Derk ryr thank you gentlemen Ben orstein Derk ryr thank you gentlemen Ben orstein Derk ryr thank you so much for joining me today so much for joining me today so much for joining me today congratulations on winning the best congratulations on winning the best congratulations on winning the best podcast for the 2021 microf SAS podcast podcast for the 2021 microf SAS podcast podcast for the 2021 microf SAS podcast Awards Derek rammer you're Dereck rammer Awards Derek rammer you're Dereck rammer Awards Derek rammer you're Dereck rammer on Twitter and benor Senor on Twitter and benor Senor on Twitter and benor Senor RK on RK on RK on Twitter great to see than for having us Twitter great to see than for having us Twitter great to see than for having us thanks take it thanks take it thanks take it easy all right thanks for joining us easy all right thanks for joining us easy all right thanks for joining us that was fun was nice to have have those

that was fun was nice to have have those that was fun was nice to have have those guys on congratulations to them and guys on congratulations to them and guys on congratulations to them and thanks to hay and stripe they are thanks to hay and stripe they are thanks to hay and stripe they are headline Partners this year in 2021 if headline Partners this year in 2021 if headline Partners this year in 2021 if you um haven't checked out hey and you um haven't checked out hey and you um haven't checked out hey and stripe obviously they're great partners stripe obviously they're great partners stripe obviously they're great partners of microcom and we love you know of microcom and we love you know of microcom and we love you know everything that they're up to if you everything that they're up to if you everything that they're up to if you haven't already head to youtube.com haven't already head to youtube.com haven't already head to youtube.com microcom and subscribe and we'll see you microcom and subscribe and we'll see you microcom and subscribe and we'll see you again in a couple weeks for the next again in a couple weeks for the next again in a couple weeks for the next microcom on air have a great week and microcom on air have a great week and microcom on air have a great week and happy New Year