The BEST Sales Funnel For Your SaaS (new data changed my advice)

Most SaaS founders don't realize that a Most SaaS founders don't realize that a few small tweaks to their trial funnel few small tweaks to their trial funnel few small tweaks to their trial funnel can mean the difference between stalled can mean the difference between stalled can mean the difference between stalled growth and doubling your revenue. In growth and doubling your revenue. In growth and doubling your revenue. In this video, I'll break down the specific this video, I'll break down the specific this video, I'll break down the specific trial strategies I've seen move the trial strategies I've seen move the trial strategies I've seen move the needle, not just from my 224 needle, not just from my 224 needle, not just from my 224 investments, but also from nearly 700 investments, but also from nearly 700 investments, but also from nearly 700 startups we surveyed for the State of startups we surveyed for the State of startups we surveyed for the State of Independent SaaS Report. The results Independent SaaS Report. The results Independent SaaS Report. The results were so surprising they actually changed were so surprising they actually changed were so surprising they actually changed the advice I've been giving founders for the advice I've been giving founders for the advice I've been giving founders for years. And here's the key, the right years. And here's the key, the right years. And here's the key, the right trial strategy depends on your stage. trial strategy depends on your stage. trial strategy depends on your stage. So, whether you're just launching or So, whether you're just launching or So, whether you're just launching or already converting at double digits, already converting at double digits, already converting at double digits, you'll want to see which approach fits you'll want to see which approach fits you'll want to see which approach fits your SaaS right now. But before we get your SaaS right now. But before we get your SaaS right now. But before we get into the tactics, let's clarify, what into the tactics, let's clarify, what into the tactics, let's clarify, what exactly is a free trial and how is it exactly is a free trial and how is it exactly is a free trial and how is it different from freemium? The main different from freemium? The main different from freemium? The main difference is that a free trial ends at difference is that a free trial ends at difference is that a free trial ends at some point. It might be an amount of some point. It might be an amount of some point. It might be an amount of time, like a 7-day free trial, or it time, like a 7-day free trial, or it time, like a 7-day free trial, or it might be usage-based, like you can send might be usage-based, like you can send might be usage-based, like you can send 100 emails through your account before 100 emails through your account before 100 emails through your account before your trial ends. But with freemium, or your trial ends. But with freemium, or your trial ends. But with freemium, or as I sometimes call it forever free, it as I sometimes call it forever free, it as I sometimes call it forever free, it doesn't end. It automatically renews. doesn't end. It automatically renews. doesn't end. It automatically renews. So, maybe instead of sending 100 emails So, maybe instead of sending 100 emails So, maybe instead of sending 100 emails and having a trial end, you get to send and having a trial end, you get to send and having a trial end, you get to send 100 emails every month, forever, without 100 emails every month, forever, without 100 emails every month, forever, without paying. But only when you go over that paying. But only when you go over that paying. But only when you go over that 100 emails in a given month, do you need 100 emails in a given month, do you need 100 emails in a given month, do you need to start paying? So, it it renews, it to start paying? So, it it renews, it to start paying? So, it it renews, it doesn't expire based on time or usage.

doesn't expire based on time or usage. doesn't expire based on time or usage. And so, comparing a free trial to a And so, comparing a free trial to a And so, comparing a free trial to a freemium plan, you can see that with freemium plan, you can see that with freemium plan, you can see that with freemium, there's much less motivation freemium, there's much less motivation freemium, there's much less motivation to convert to paid. That's one of the to convert to paid. That's one of the to convert to paid. That's one of the reasons why it's actually quite reasons why it's actually quite reasons why it's actually quite difficult to make work. Let's take a difficult to make work. Let's take a difficult to make work. Let's take a quick look at a page from the 2024 State quick look at a page from the 2024 State quick look at a page from the 2024 State of Independent SaaS Survey, and you can of Independent SaaS Survey, and you can of Independent SaaS Survey, and you can see that about 29% see that about 29% see that about 29% of bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped of bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped of bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped SaaS companies have some kind of SaaS companies have some kind of SaaS companies have some kind of freemium offering versus 51% freemium offering versus 51% freemium offering versus 51% who offer a free trial. So, not quite who offer a free trial. So, not quite who offer a free trial. So, not quite twice as many, but it's significantly twice as many, but it's significantly twice as many, but it's significantly more. If you're wondering, well, when more. If you're wondering, well, when more. If you're wondering, well, when should I try freemium? Because my should I try freemium? Because my should I try freemium? Because my default advice is freemium's probably default advice is freemium's probably default advice is freemium's probably not going to work for you. I'd say 90, not going to work for you. I'd say 90, not going to work for you. I'd say 90, 95% of the time it doesn't work. But 95% of the time it doesn't work. But 95% of the time it doesn't work. But what are Ruben's rules of thumb for when what are Ruben's rules of thumb for when what are Ruben's rules of thumb for when freemium might work? Ruben is the freemium might work? Ruben is the freemium might work? Ruben is the founder of SignWell and he's one of the founder of SignWell and he's one of the founder of SignWell and he's one of the most knowledgeable people about SaaS most knowledgeable people about SaaS most knowledgeable people about SaaS freemium that I know exist in the world. freemium that I know exist in the world. freemium that I know exist in the world. And he has five requirements for when And he has five requirements for when And he has five requirements for when freemium might work. So even if you have freemium might work. So even if you have freemium might work. So even if you have these requirements, you still might not these requirements, you still might not these requirements, you still might not get it to work. But the first one is get it to work. But the first one is get it to work. But the first one is that you are self-serve and you have that you are self-serve and you have that you are self-serve and you have simple onboarding. Second one is it's simple onboarding. Second one is it's simple onboarding. Second one is it's quick for customers to get to value.

quick for customers to get to value. quick for customers to get to value. They don't need to onboard for weeks in They don't need to onboard for weeks in They don't need to onboard for weeks in order to see value from the product. You order to see value from the product. You order to see value from the product. You have almost zero cost for each new user. have almost zero cost for each new user. have almost zero cost for each new user. Some element of virality and you're in a Some element of virality and you're in a Some element of virality and you're in a very large market, so not a small niche. very large market, so not a small niche. very large market, so not a small niche. And again, even if you have all five of And again, even if you have all five of And again, even if you have all five of those, there's no guarantee it's going those, there's no guarantee it's going those, there's no guarantee it's going to work, but those are the five minimum to work, but those are the five minimum to work, but those are the five minimum criteria that I would look at if I were criteria that I would look at if I were criteria that I would look at if I were to even consider launching a freemium to even consider launching a freemium to even consider launching a freemium plan. There is a reason that free trials plan. There is a reason that free trials plan. There is a reason that free trials are so much more prevalent than are so much more prevalent than are so much more prevalent than freemium. And what's interesting with freemium. And what's interesting with freemium. And what's interesting with those numbers of 29% and 51% is I bet a those numbers of 29% and 51% is I bet a those numbers of 29% and 51% is I bet a lot of those freemium offerings are not lot of those freemium offerings are not lot of those freemium offerings are not actually working. So now let's talk actually working. So now let's talk actually working. So now let's talk about your trial and whether you should about your trial and whether you should about your trial and whether you should ask for a credit card up front before ask for a credit card up front before ask for a credit card up front before someone gets to try your product. Big someone gets to try your product. Big someone gets to try your product. Big question you have to ask is is the question you have to ask is is the question you have to ask is is the person who's signing up for your product person who's signing up for your product person who's signing up for your product likely to have a company credit card? likely to have a company credit card? likely to have a company credit card? For example, a software engineer at a For example, a software engineer at a For example, a software engineer at a very large company might not have a very large company might not have a very large company might not have a company credit card. And so if they are company credit card. And so if they are company credit card. And so if they are the person who's going to be signing up the person who's going to be signing up the person who's going to be signing up or they are your end user, well, maybe or they are your end user, well, maybe or they are your end user, well, maybe you don't require credit card on this you don't require credit card on this you don't require credit card on this one. But if you're selling to one. But if you're selling to one. But if you're selling to engineering managers, they are very engineering managers, they are very engineering managers, they are very likely to have a credit card. In fact, likely to have a credit card. In fact, likely to have a credit card. In fact, at my last startup Drip, we ran an at my last startup Drip, we ran an at my last startup Drip, we ran an experiment where we asked for your email experiment where we asked for your email experiment where we asked for your email address and your password on one screen address and your password on one screen address and your password on one screen and then on the next screen we asked for and then on the next screen we asked for and then on the next screen we asked for a credit card. And if the person bailed a credit card. And if the person bailed a credit card. And if the person bailed before entering the credit card, we before entering the credit card, we before entering the credit card, we emailed them like it was 12 hours or a emailed them like it was 12 hours or a emailed them like it was 12 hours or a day later and we offered to let them in day later and we offered to let them in day later and we offered to let them in to the trial without a credit card. And to the trial without a credit card. And to the trial without a credit card. And somewhere around 0% of those we let in somewhere around 0% of those we let in somewhere around 0% of those we let in were a good long-term fit for the were a good long-term fit for the were a good long-term fit for the product. Now, I say approximately zero.

product. Now, I say approximately zero. product. Now, I say approximately zero. There were certainly a trickle of There were certainly a trickle of There were certainly a trickle of people, but the quality of the leads of people, but the quality of the leads of people, but the quality of the leads of folks who wouldn't enter their credit folks who wouldn't enter their credit folks who wouldn't enter their credit card up front, who we then let in card up front, who we then let in card up front, who we then let in without a credit card, was without a credit card, was without a credit card, was significantly, and I mean 10 to 20 times significantly, and I mean 10 to 20 times significantly, and I mean 10 to 20 times worse than when we had the credit card worse than when we had the credit card worse than when we had the credit card up front. So, it might sound like I'm up front. So, it might sound like I'm up front. So, it might sound like I'm totally pro credit card up front. But, totally pro credit card up front. But, totally pro credit card up front. But, here's the thing, if you're just here's the thing, if you're just here's the thing, if you're just starting out and you have no brand and starting out and you have no brand and starting out and you have no brand and you have a trickle of people coming to you have a trickle of people coming to you have a trickle of people coming to the website, but they're not signing up the website, but they're not signing up the website, but they're not signing up for trials and you do want to I get some for trials and you do want to I get some for trials and you do want to I get some type of feedback, it might not be the type of feedback, it might not be the type of feedback, it might not be the worst idea to remove that credit card worst idea to remove that credit card worst idea to remove that credit card early on to get people in and, you know, early on to get people in and, you know, early on to get people in and, you know, they're going to be less qualified, but they're going to be less qualified, but they're going to be less qualified, but if you don't have enough users coming in if you don't have enough users coming in if you don't have enough users coming in and you don't have any support going on, and you don't have any support going on, and you don't have any support going on, then having folks come in and try the then having folks come in and try the then having folks come in and try the product and to at least try to have product and to at least try to have product and to at least try to have conversations with them, it can be worth conversations with them, it can be worth conversations with them, it can be worth it. Just know that you're going to get a it. Just know that you're going to get a it. Just know that you're going to get a lot of unqualified people if you do lot of unqualified people if you do lot of unqualified people if you do that. When I bootstrapped my last SaaS, that. When I bootstrapped my last SaaS, that. When I bootstrapped my last SaaS, we did ask for credit card up front we did ask for credit card up front we did ask for credit card up front because I had a big launch list, 3,400 because I had a big launch list, 3,400 because I had a big launch list, 3,400 people who were interested in trying out people who were interested in trying out people who were interested in trying out the product. And so, I put a credit card the product. And so, I put a credit card the product. And so, I put a credit card gate up front because I didn't want a gate up front because I didn't want a gate up front because I didn't want a bunch of unqualified people coming in bunch of unqualified people coming in bunch of unqualified people coming in and swamping us. So, if you're in that and swamping us. So, if you're in that and swamping us. So, if you're in that position, I'd probably ask for credit position, I'd probably ask for credit position, I'd probably ask for credit card up front early. And then, once card up front early. And then, once card up front early. And then, once you're rolling and you know that your you're rolling and you know that your you're rolling and you know that your funnel is working and let's say you're funnel is working and let's say you're funnel is working and let's say you're doing hundreds of thousands a year, doing hundreds of thousands a year, doing hundreds of thousands a year, let's say 500k or a million or 2 let's say 500k or a million or 2 let's say 500k or a million or 2 million, it probably makes sense if million, it probably makes sense if million, it probably makes sense if you're asking for credit card up front you're asking for credit card up front you're asking for credit card up front to experiment with removing it to see to experiment with removing it to see to experiment with removing it to see what impact it has, as long as you can what impact it has, as long as you can what impact it has, as long as you can roll it back. Because at this point, roll it back. Because at this point, roll it back. Because at this point, you'll have historical numbers, you'll you'll have historical numbers, you'll you'll have historical numbers, you'll have really good knowledge of your have really good knowledge of your have really good knowledge of your business and you'll be able to see how business and you'll be able to see how business and you'll be able to see how it impacts your company relatively it impacts your company relatively it impacts your company relatively quickly. Now, maybe it takes a month or

quickly. Now, maybe it takes a month or quickly. Now, maybe it takes a month or two and then you have to look at churn two and then you have to look at churn two and then you have to look at churn and there's all kinds of things, but it and there's all kinds of things, but it and there's all kinds of things, but it is a worthwhile experiment because it is is a worthwhile experiment because it is is a worthwhile experiment because it is a big bet and sometimes you have to take a big bet and sometimes you have to take a big bet and sometimes you have to take big bets to really change the trajectory big bets to really change the trajectory big bets to really change the trajectory of your business. I do know of a company of your business. I do know of a company of your business. I do know of a company that removed credit card up front after that removed credit card up front after that removed credit card up front after they were doing about a million a year. they were doing about a million a year. they were doing about a million a year. It happened to make absolutely no It happened to make absolutely no It happened to make absolutely no difference to their particular business. difference to their particular business. difference to their particular business. Now, that doesn't mean that it would be Now, that doesn't mean that it would be Now, that doesn't mean that it would be the same for your business, but it is the same for your business, but it is the same for your business, but it is one data point that I often think about. one data point that I often think about. one data point that I often think about. Let's take a look at another page from Let's take a look at another page from Let's take a look at another page from the 2024 State of independent SaaS where the 2024 State of independent SaaS where the 2024 State of independent SaaS where we looked at the rate of free trial we looked at the rate of free trial we looked at the rate of free trial requiring credit card over 4 years. And requiring credit card over 4 years. And requiring credit card over 4 years. And you can see in 2020, it was around 73%. you can see in 2020, it was around 73%. you can see in 2020, it was around 73%. In 2021, it ticked up. In 2022, it In 2021, it ticked up. In 2022, it In 2021, it ticked up. In 2022, it ticked up. And then in 2024, it ticked ticked up. And then in 2024, it ticked ticked up. And then in 2024, it ticked back down relatively significantly. What back down relatively significantly. What back down relatively significantly. What is that a like more than 10% drop. But is that a like more than 10% drop. But is that a like more than 10% drop. But this gives you an idea of still about this gives you an idea of still about this gives you an idea of still about three quarters of mostly bootstrapped three quarters of mostly bootstrapped three quarters of mostly bootstrapped SaaS companies are requiring credit card SaaS companies are requiring credit card SaaS companies are requiring credit card up front before allowing someone to up front before allowing someone to up front before allowing someone to start a trial. And the reason for that start a trial. And the reason for that start a trial. And the reason for that is that when you're bootstrapped and is that when you're bootstrapped and is that when you're bootstrapped and you're time limited, asking for credit you're time limited, asking for credit you're time limited, asking for credit card reduces noise and your support card reduces noise and your support card reduces noise and your support burden. But realize it also might turn burden. But realize it also might turn burden. But realize it also might turn away a small number of qualified away a small number of qualified away a small number of qualified prospects, especially if your prospects, especially if your prospects, especially if your competitors allow a trial without credit competitors allow a trial without credit competitors allow a trial without credit card. So that's another factor is card. So that's another factor is card. So that's another factor is looking around at the competitive looking around at the competitive looking around at the competitive landscape. And if all of your landscape. And if all of your landscape. And if all of your competitors have freemium, for example, competitors have freemium, for example, competitors have freemium, for example, and you don't, well, maybe it's time to and you don't, well, maybe it's time to and you don't, well, maybe it's time to think about it. It doesn't mean they're think about it. It doesn't mean they're think about it. It doesn't mean they're making it work, but you might need that making it work, but you might need that making it work, but you might need that to get customers. And if your to get customers. And if your to get customers. And if your competitors are allowing a trial without competitors are allowing a trial without competitors are allowing a trial without a credit card, there's definitely a pull a credit card, there's definitely a pull a credit card, there's definitely a pull there. You definitely absolutely should, there. You definitely absolutely should, there. You definitely absolutely should, but it's another data point in thinking

but it's another data point in thinking but it's another data point in thinking about this. In our state of independent about this. In our state of independent about this. In our state of independent SaaS report, we had some expert analysis SaaS report, we had some expert analysis SaaS report, we had some expert analysis by Asia Orangio, the founder of Demand by Asia Orangio, the founder of Demand by Asia Orangio, the founder of Demand Maven. And one of the things she looked Maven. And one of the things she looked Maven. And one of the things she looked at were growth rates and churn based on at were growth rates and churn based on at were growth rates and churn based on whether you had a free plan, freemium whether you had a free plan, freemium whether you had a free plan, freemium plan, or whether you asked for credit plan, or whether you asked for credit plan, or whether you asked for credit card up front or not before your trial. card up front or not before your trial. card up front or not before your trial. So when we look at the month-over-month So when we look at the month-over-month So when we look at the month-over-month growth on average for these three growth on average for these three growth on average for these three options, free trial with a credit card options, free trial with a credit card options, free trial with a credit card required is double the growth of not required is double the growth of not required is double the growth of not requiring a credit card. And it's about requiring a credit card. And it's about requiring a credit card. And it's about what 40% more than having a freemium what 40% more than having a freemium what 40% more than having a freemium plan. In addition to that, churn is the plan. In addition to that, churn is the plan. In addition to that, churn is the lowest with credit card required. Based lowest with credit card required. Based lowest with credit card required. Based on this data set and this analysis, it on this data set and this analysis, it on this data set and this analysis, it would imply that credit card required would imply that credit card required would imply that credit card required might be the way to go for the majority might be the way to go for the majority might be the way to go for the majority of mostly bootstrapped SaaS companies. I of mostly bootstrapped SaaS companies. I of mostly bootstrapped SaaS companies. I would also point out that if you're not would also point out that if you're not would also point out that if you're not asking for a credit card, I think that asking for a credit card, I think that asking for a credit card, I think that could mean these are more early stage could mean these are more early stage could mean these are more early stage companies who haven't quite figured out companies who haven't quite figured out companies who haven't quite figured out their funnel, and that could be a reason their funnel, and that could be a reason their funnel, and that could be a reason that their month-over-month growth is that their month-over-month growth is that their month-over-month growth is low, and their churn is relatively high.

low, and their churn is relatively high. low, and their churn is relatively high. And lastly, I want to bring up this very And lastly, I want to bring up this very And lastly, I want to bring up this very puzzling slide. I'm I'm genuinely puzzling slide. I'm I'm genuinely puzzling slide. I'm I'm genuinely puzzled by this. Asia looked at lifetime puzzled by this. Asia looked at lifetime puzzled by this. Asia looked at lifetime value of a customer for free, and then value of a customer for free, and then value of a customer for free, and then free trial with credit card, and not and free trial with credit card, and not and free trial with credit card, and not and free trial without a credit card offered free trial without a credit card offered free trial without a credit card offered 2.2 times the lifetime value. I 2.2 times the lifetime value. I 2.2 times the lifetime value. I genuinely don't know how to explain genuinely don't know how to explain genuinely don't know how to explain this, but these are the numbers from the this, but these are the numbers from the this, but these are the numbers from the data set. It is interesting that the data set. It is interesting that the data set. It is interesting that the lifetime value of a free plan really lifetime value of a free plan really lifetime value of a free plan really free plan this is why it's tough to make free plan this is why it's tough to make free plan this is why it's tough to make work. I think a lot of these folks are work. I think a lot of these folks are work. I think a lot of these folks are trying it and in the process and with trying it and in the process and with trying it and in the process and with the churn so high and month-over-month the churn so high and month-over-month the churn so high and month-over-month growth not great and the lifetime value growth not great and the lifetime value growth not great and the lifetime value so low, you can see why it's an uphill so low, you can see why it's an uphill so low, you can see why it's an uphill battle. But could this be a case for not battle. But could this be a case for not battle. But could this be a case for not asking for a credit card before your asking for a credit card before your asking for a credit card before your free trial? It might be. And what this free trial? It might be. And what this free trial? It might be. And what this also might indicate is like I said also might indicate is like I said also might indicate is like I said earlier, past say a million in ARR and earlier, past say a million in ARR and earlier, past say a million in ARR and you do want to do that experiment of you do want to do that experiment of you do want to do that experiment of removing the credit card, you're removing the credit card, you're removing the credit card, you're probably at a pretty high lifetime probably at a pretty high lifetime probably at a pretty high lifetime value. And so this could imply that this value. And so this could imply that this value. And so this could imply that this high LTV is attributed to companies that high LTV is attributed to companies that high LTV is attributed to companies that are a little bit later stage and have are a little bit later stage and have are a little bit later stage and have their funnel more figured out. In a their funnel more figured out. In a their funnel more figured out. In a minute, I'm going to revisit what I got minute, I'm going to revisit what I got minute, I'm going to revisit what I got wrong in the advice I used to give about wrong in the advice I used to give about wrong in the advice I used to give about trials. But first, if you've made it trials. But first, if you've made it trials. But first, if you've made it this far, that means you're really in this far, that means you're really in this far, that means you're really in the weeds of trying to optimize your the weeds of trying to optimize your the weeds of trying to optimize your pricing, which means you're my kind of pricing, which means you're my kind of pricing, which means you're my kind of people. You should consider joining us people. You should consider joining us people. You should consider joining us in MicroConf Connect, our vetted in MicroConf Connect, our vetted in MicroConf Connect, our vetted community of SaaS founders. It is a community of SaaS founders. It is a community of SaaS founders. It is a worldwide community that runs year-round worldwide community that runs year-round worldwide community that runs year-round and there are amazing conversations, and there are amazing conversations, and there are amazing conversations, monthly live events, quarterly live Q&As monthly live events, quarterly live Q&As monthly live events, quarterly live Q&As with me, and a lot of camaraderie. We

with me, and a lot of camaraderie. We with me, and a lot of camaraderie. We have a full-time moderator and we charge have a full-time moderator and we charge have a full-time moderator and we charge to keep the quality of that community to keep the quality of that community to keep the quality of that community much, much higher than any free much, much higher than any free much, much higher than any free community you've ever been a part of on community you've ever been a part of on community you've ever been a part of on the internet. I believe MicroConf the internet. I believe MicroConf the internet. I believe MicroConf Connect is one of the best, if not the Connect is one of the best, if not the Connect is one of the best, if not the best, paid communities for bootstrapped best, paid communities for bootstrapped best, paid communities for bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped SaaS founders. and mostly bootstrapped SaaS founders. and mostly bootstrapped SaaS founders. To apply, head over to To apply, head over to To apply, head over to microconfconnect.com. microconfconnect.com. microconfconnect.com. So, my default recommendation used to be So, my default recommendation used to be So, my default recommendation used to be that all founders should ask for credit that all founders should ask for credit that all founders should ask for credit card up front, but these days I can see card up front, but these days I can see card up front, but these days I can see a case, especially in the early days, to a case, especially in the early days, to a case, especially in the early days, to remove it if you're not getting enough remove it if you're not getting enough remove it if you're not getting enough feedback on your product. And I can also feedback on your product. And I can also feedback on your product. And I can also see a case to remove it once you're see a case to remove it once you're see a case to remove it once you're further along and you know your business further along and you know your business further along and you know your business well, you have revenue coming in, and well, you have revenue coming in, and well, you have revenue coming in, and you want to run it as an experiment to you want to run it as an experiment to you want to run it as an experiment to widen your funnel. At the start of this widen your funnel. At the start of this widen your funnel. At the start of this video, I talked about how freemium and video, I talked about how freemium and video, I talked about how freemium and free trials are different. Freemium can free trials are different. Freemium can free trials are different. Freemium can be a great marketing strategy if your be a great marketing strategy if your be a great marketing strategy if your SaaS checks a few critical boxes, which SaaS checks a few critical boxes, which SaaS checks a few critical boxes, which I lay out in this next video. Generally, I lay out in this next video. Generally, I lay out in this next video. Generally, most founders should avoid freemium, but most founders should avoid freemium, but most founders should avoid freemium, but as with all things, there's nuance. as with all things, there's nuance. as with all things, there's nuance. Check it out and see if it's right for Check it out and see if it's right for Check it out and see if it's right for you. Thanks for watching, and I'll see you. Thanks for watching, and I'll see you. Thanks for watching, and I'll see you next time.