MicroConf Remote 2020

let's get the show let's get the show started welcome to microconf remote the started welcome to microconf remote the started welcome to microconf remote the must-see tv must-see tv must-see tv experience of the year for the next five experience of the year for the next five experience of the year for the next five hours we're going to take you on a hours we're going to take you on a hours we're going to take you on a binge-worthy journey binge-worthy journey binge-worthy journey that will showcase a story arc that that will showcase a story arc that that will showcase a story arc that every bootstrap founder aspires to every bootstrap founder aspires to every bootstrap founder aspires to create create create microconf has been the meeting place for microconf has been the meeting place for microconf has been the meeting place for thousands of founders over the last thousands of founders over the last thousands of founders over the last decade decade decade for years we've talked about hosting for years we've talked about hosting for years we've talked about hosting microconf remote but if there was ever a microconf remote but if there was ever a microconf remote but if there was ever a year to take the show online year to take the show online year to take the show online 2020 is it when we launched microconf 2020 is it when we launched microconf 2020 is it when we launched microconf back in 2011 back in 2011 back in 2011 terms like stair stepping value metric terms like stair stepping value metric terms like stair stepping value metric and the long and the long and the long slow sas ramp of death didn't even exist slow sas ramp of death didn't even exist slow sas ramp of death didn't even exist and the idea of building a bootstrap and the idea of building a bootstrap and the idea of building a bootstrap startup to a transformational level of startup to a transformational level of startup to a transformational level of success success success seemed out of the question for years seemed out of the question for years seemed out of the question for years this movement has blown this movement has blown this movement has blown expectations out of the water and has expectations out of the water and has expectations out of the water and has created an entire economy of sas created an entire economy of sas created an entire economy of sas products with the sole goal of helping products with the sole goal of helping products with the sole goal of helping others reach scalable others reach scalable others reach scalable sustainable levels of success we've had sustainable levels of success we've had sustainable levels of success we've had conversations with thousands of founders conversations with thousands of founders conversations with thousands of founders who have started life-changing who have started life-changing who have started life-changing businesses businesses businesses generate thousands tens of thousands or generate thousands tens of thousands or generate thousands tens of thousands or more in revenue each month more in revenue each month more in revenue each month we've seen folks take back their sense we've seen folks take back their sense we've seen folks take back their sense of freedom by having the chance to work of freedom by having the chance to work of freedom by having the chance to work for themselves for themselves for themselves on their own time we've seen on their own time we've seen on their own time we've seen groundbreaking products that have groundbreaking products that have groundbreaking products that have changed the way we work changed the way we work changed the way we work all while avoiding the rat race chasing all while avoiding the rat race chasing all while avoiding the rat race chasing after venture capital after venture capital after venture capital and we believe that you can do the same and we believe that you can do the same and we believe that you can do the same that's why we're here today that's why we're here today that's why we're here today to show you that no matter the stage of to show you that no matter the stage of to show you that no matter the stage of your founder journey you have all of the your founder journey you have all of the your founder journey you have all of the resources you need resources you need resources you need to build something that can change your to build something that can change your to build something that can change your life you're going to hear from an life you're going to hear from an life you're going to hear from an all-star lineup all-star lineup all-star lineup who have reached some of the most who have reached some of the most who have reached some of the most celebrated milestones in a business's celebrated milestones in a business's celebrated milestones in a business's growth growth growth from launch to the grind towards your from launch to the grind towards your from launch to the grind towards your first 10k of mrr

first 10k of mrr first 10k of mrr then onto a pair of co-founders who have then onto a pair of co-founders who have then onto a pair of co-founders who have found a clear strategic found a clear strategic found a clear strategic path to help them blow past 100k of mrr path to help them blow past 100k of mrr path to help them blow past 100k of mrr and finally we'll leave you with one of and finally we'll leave you with one of and finally we'll leave you with one of the most successful stories of a tech the most successful stories of a tech the most successful stories of a tech company company company that has endured the dot-com bubble that has endured the dot-com bubble that has endured the dot-com bubble economic downturns economic downturns economic downturns and was able to launch another business and was able to launch another business and was able to launch another business in the midst of a pandemic in the midst of a pandemic in the midst of a pandemic to viral levels of success hi to viral levels of success hi to viral levels of success hi my name is patrick i'm based in the my name is patrick i'm based in the my name is patrick i'm based in the dallas texas area dallas texas area dallas texas area and i am in the midst of starting my and i am in the midst of starting my and i am in the midst of starting my very first productized very first productized very first productized service business in the healthcare space service business in the healthcare space service business in the healthcare space never been to a microconf before never been to a microconf before never been to a microconf before but found this community tangentially but found this community tangentially but found this community tangentially through some other podcasts and have through some other podcasts and have through some other podcasts and have really been inspired really been inspired really been inspired nearly 500 of you are brand new to the nearly 500 of you are brand new to the nearly 500 of you are brand new to the microcomp community microcomp community microcomp community we want to welcome you these are your we want to welcome you these are your we want to welcome you these are your people and we know people and we know people and we know because there are people too hi folks my because there are people too hi folks my because there are people too hi folks my name is anna mast and i'm the cto of name is anna mast and i'm the cto of name is anna mast and i'm the cto of boondocker's welcome which is an online boondocker's welcome which is an online boondocker's welcome which is an online driveway surfing community for our driveway surfing community for our driveway surfing community for our viewers viewers viewers i went to my first microcomp last spring i went to my first microcomp last spring i went to my first microcomp last spring as a lucky scholarship recipient as a lucky scholarship recipient as a lucky scholarship recipient and i was feeling a bit stuck in my and i was feeling a bit stuck in my and i was feeling a bit stuck in my business and i had a decent offer to business and i had a decent offer to business and i had a decent offer to sell on the table so i arrived thinking sell on the table so i arrived thinking sell on the table so i arrived thinking i would learn how to run a i would learn how to run a i would learn how to run a real internet business and plan to start real internet business and plan to start real internet business and plan to start fresh fresh fresh the very first night at the mixer i had the very first night at the mixer i had the very first night at the mixer i had a conversation with a fellow attendee a conversation with a fellow attendee a conversation with a fellow attendee who suggested i read before the exit who suggested i read before the exit who suggested i read before the exit by dan andrew of tropical nba fame that by dan andrew of tropical nba fame that by dan andrew of tropical nba fame that piece of advice alone was worth the trip piece of advice alone was worth the trip piece of advice alone was worth the trip the cost of my flight through all the the cost of my flight through all the the cost of my flight through all the hallway track conversations i had i came hallway track conversations i had i came hallway track conversations i had i came to realize that the business i had was a to realize that the business i had was a to realize that the business i had was a real business real business real business and i started breaking free of some of and i started breaking free of some of and i started breaking free of some of my imposter syndrome my imposter syndrome my imposter syndrome for those of you returning to microconf for those of you returning to microconf for those of you returning to microconf thank you you're the reason we've been

thank you you're the reason we've been thank you you're the reason we've been grinding away at this event for nearly a grinding away at this event for nearly a grinding away at this event for nearly a decade decade decade and why when we couldn't come together and why when we couldn't come together and why when we couldn't come together in april we knew we needed to make some in april we knew we needed to make some in april we knew we needed to make some magic happen magic happen magic happen so grab a snack a cup of coffee or a so grab a snack a cup of coffee or a so grab a snack a cup of coffee or a glass of wine glass of wine glass of wine and welcome to the microconf remote and welcome to the microconf remote and welcome to the microconf remote studio studio studio uh it's time to start the founder uh it's time to start the founder uh it's time to start the founder journey of getting to your first journey of getting to your first journey of getting to your first fail so corinne pope is a long time fail so corinne pope is a long time fail so corinne pope is a long time microconf attendee i've had many microconf attendee i've had many microconf attendee i've had many conversations with her and i'm stoked conversations with her and i'm stoked conversations with her and i'm stoked that she's here that she's here that she's here to share the stage with me today she's to share the stage with me today she's to share the stage with me today she's the founder of speckled the founder of speckled the founder of speckled a tool that helps product managers build a tool that helps product managers build a tool that helps product managers build the right thing at the right time the right thing at the right time the right thing at the right time after stair stepping her away from a after stair stepping her away from a after stair stepping her away from a corporate gig through an info product corporate gig through an info product corporate gig through an info product business and then to a product business and then to a product business and then to a product apprenticeship apprenticeship apprenticeship she recently made the leap into building she recently made the leap into building she recently made the leap into building sas products and in the quest for sas products and in the quest for sas products and in the quest for product market fit product market fit product market fit she enjoys talking to customers she enjoys talking to customers she enjoys talking to customers designing and developing new features designing and developing new features designing and developing new features and of course plusing over conversion and of course plusing over conversion and of course plusing over conversion rates as we all do rates as we all do rates as we all do failing from austin texas she fuels her failing from austin texas she fuels her failing from austin texas she fuels her enjoyment of running stupid long enjoyment of running stupid long enjoyment of running stupid long distances her words not mine distances her words not mine distances her words not mine with tex-mex and toppo chico so corrine with tex-mex and toppo chico so corrine with tex-mex and toppo chico so corrine pope welcome to the show thanks for pope welcome to the show thanks for pope welcome to the show thanks for joining me on microcom joining me on microcom joining me on microcom thanks rob all right good morning thanks rob all right good morning thanks rob all right good morning everyone everyone everyone i'm really excited to be here and talk i'm really excited to be here and talk i'm really excited to be here and talk to you about the story of how i to you about the story of how i to you about the story of how i inadvertently launched speckled now from inadvertently launched speckled now from inadvertently launched speckled now from my story my story my story i hope that you can learn from some of i hope that you can learn from some of i hope that you can learn from some of my mistakes and take away some new my mistakes and take away some new my mistakes and take away some new tactics to apply to your own ideas tactics to apply to your own ideas tactics to apply to your own ideas i'll start with the origin of the idea i'll start with the origin of the idea i'll start with the origin of the idea and how it got off to and how it got off to and how it got off to an admit at least slow start an admit at least slow start an admit at least slow start talk about the groundwork that was laid talk about the groundwork that was laid talk about the groundwork that was laid way before this ever became a thing way before this ever became a thing way before this ever became a thing and finally move into how i managed to

and finally move into how i managed to and finally move into how i managed to build up the momentum build up the momentum build up the momentum that i needed to launch my product so that i needed to launch my product so that i needed to launch my product so let's get into it how many of you have had this happen to how many of you have had this happen to you you you you get an idea you're super excited you get an idea you're super excited you get an idea you're super excited about it so you about it so you about it so you run to your journal or your note-taking run to your journal or your note-taking run to your journal or your note-taking app you write it down app you write it down app you write it down the more you start thinking about it the the more you start thinking about it the the more you start thinking about it the more convinced you are that more convinced you are that more convinced you are that this is the one like this is the idea this is the one like this is the idea this is the one like this is the idea that you need to work on right now that you need to work on right now that you need to work on right now so you spend probably a little bit too so you spend probably a little bit too so you spend probably a little bit too much time picking up much time picking up much time picking up just the perfect domain and then you dig just the perfect domain and then you dig just the perfect domain and then you dig into the fun parts into the fun parts into the fun parts now this happens to me a bit more now this happens to me a bit more now this happens to me a bit more frequently than i'd like to admit frequently than i'd like to admit frequently than i'd like to admit but you know the beginnings part is just but you know the beginnings part is just but you know the beginnings part is just so much fun so much fun so much fun however fast forward however fast forward however fast forward a couple of months sometimes even a few a couple of months sometimes even a few a couple of months sometimes even a few weeks weeks weeks and something happens somehow you've and something happens somehow you've and something happens somehow you've lost a bit of momentum lost a bit of momentum lost a bit of momentum and your great idea has migrated over to and your great idea has migrated over to and your great idea has migrated over to your your your project graveyard now project graveyard now project graveyard now my project graveyard is a pretty my project graveyard is a pretty my project graveyard is a pretty expensive place expensive place expensive place the amount of money i spend on domain the amount of money i spend on domain the amount of money i spend on domain renewal fees renewal fees renewal fees is straight up embarrassing is straight up embarrassing is straight up embarrassing but you know this isn't a place where we but you know this isn't a place where we but you know this isn't a place where we really want our projects to land really want our projects to land really want our projects to land we want to launch them put them out into we want to launch them put them out into we want to launch them put them out into the world get people on board the world get people on board the world get people on board and make a tool that provides value to and make a tool that provides value to and make a tool that provides value to the people that we serve right the people that we serve right the people that we serve right now quite honestly this whole

now quite honestly this whole now quite honestly this whole cycle is how speckled got started off it was a sunday in june in the middle of it was a sunday in june in the middle of a hot texas summer a hot texas summer a hot texas summer i was sitting outside writing in my i was sitting outside writing in my i was sitting outside writing in my journal brainstorming some ideas journal brainstorming some ideas journal brainstorming some ideas i had a job at the time and we were i had a job at the time and we were i had a job at the time and we were getting all of this work getting all of this work getting all of this work piled onto our plate but no new piled onto our plate but no new piled onto our plate but no new resources to handle it so we had to resources to handle it so we had to resources to handle it so we had to prioritize prioritize prioritize pretty ruthlessly so i was like okay pretty ruthlessly so i was like okay pretty ruthlessly so i was like okay i have this issue and i get the feeling i have this issue and i get the feeling i have this issue and i get the feeling that other people may too that other people may too that other people may too so i'm gonna register a domain and get so i'm gonna register a domain and get so i'm gonna register a domain and get to work so to work so to work so i design the website write the copy i design the website write the copy i design the website write the copy start drawing up some user flows and start drawing up some user flows and start drawing up some user flows and wireframes wireframes wireframes but then life gets in the way but then life gets in the way but then life gets in the way now as i mentioned i was working a job now as i mentioned i was working a job now as i mentioned i was working a job my team members were everywhere from my team members were everywhere from my team members were everywhere from eastern europe eastern europe eastern europe to the u.s to the philippines and it to the u.s to the philippines and it to the u.s to the philippines and it felt like i was in meetings from felt like i was in meetings from felt like i was in meetings from sun up to sun down on some days and to sun up to sun down on some days and to sun up to sun down on some days and to be honest be honest be honest at this point my job was the top at this point my job was the top at this point my job was the top priority and priority and priority and you know the time needed to get this you know the time needed to get this you know the time needed to get this idea really really kicked off just idea really really kicked off just idea really really kicked off just wasn't quite there wasn't quite there wasn't quite there but still you know but still you know but still you know this idea kept bugging me it elizabeth this idea kept bugging me it elizabeth this idea kept bugging me it elizabeth gilbert has this concept in her book big gilbert has this concept in her book big gilbert has this concept in her book big magic that magic that magic that ideas are going to constantly come visit ideas are going to constantly come visit ideas are going to constantly come visit you they're going to wake you up in the you they're going to wake you up in the you they're going to wake you up in the middle of the night middle of the night middle of the night distract you and not leave you alone distract you and not leave you alone distract you and not leave you alone until they have your fullest attention until they have your fullest attention until they have your fullest attention and then in a quiet moment they're going

and then in a quiet moment they're going and then in a quiet moment they're going to ask do you want to work with me to ask do you want to work with me to ask do you want to work with me and at this point you can say no you and at this point you can say no you and at this point you can say no you know that's okay know that's okay know that's okay maybe you're not the right idea for me maybe you're not the right idea for me maybe you're not the right idea for me you know why don't you go and meander you know why don't you go and meander you know why don't you go and meander over to my project graveyard over to my project graveyard over to my project graveyard or you can say yes and so this idea had or you can say yes and so this idea had or you can say yes and so this idea had been really bugging me been really bugging me been really bugging me and for so long i wanted to work on it and for so long i wanted to work on it and for so long i wanted to work on it so i said yes at the end of 2019 i had at the end of 2019 i had made the decision to leave my job quite made the decision to leave my job quite made the decision to leave my job quite honestly i was a bit burnt out at the honestly i was a bit burnt out at the honestly i was a bit burnt out at the time time time i needed some time to recover and get i needed some time to recover and get i needed some time to recover and get all those creative juices back so i took all those creative juices back so i took all those creative juices back so i took some time to relax some time to relax some time to relax hang out with my family over the hang out with my family over the hang out with my family over the holidays follow some curiosities holidays follow some curiosities holidays follow some curiosities and then once i was ready start working and then once i was ready start working and then once i was ready start working on this idea on this idea on this idea and about seven later seven months later and about seven later seven months later and about seven later seven months later i i i inadvertently launched my product and inadvertently launched my product and inadvertently launched my product and today i want to talk to you today i want to talk to you today i want to talk to you about the time between committing to the about the time between committing to the about the time between committing to the idea and actually launching idea and actually launching idea and actually launching like what was the difference between like what was the difference between like what was the difference between this project that landed up launching this project that landed up launching this project that landed up launching and all the other ones that had landed and all the other ones that had landed and all the other ones that had landed in my side project graveyard in my side project graveyard in my side project graveyard now in prep for this talk i did a now in prep for this talk i did a now in prep for this talk i did a lot of looking back to try to figure out lot of looking back to try to figure out lot of looking back to try to figure out what it was that made this one different what it was that made this one different what it was that made this one different and i realized it came back to this and i realized it came back to this and i realized it came back to this concept concept concept of momentum now previously i do the of momentum now previously i do the of momentum now previously i do the whole whole whole get super excited about something lose

get super excited about something lose get super excited about something lose momentum kind of think momentum kind of think momentum kind of think but this idea it managed to achieve a but this idea it managed to achieve a but this idea it managed to achieve a sort of sort of sort of escape velocity and avoid the graveyard escape velocity and avoid the graveyard escape velocity and avoid the graveyard and there were two things i realized and there were two things i realized and there were two things i realized that helped me achieve this escape that helped me achieve this escape that helped me achieve this escape velocity velocity velocity and that was to have a strong base from and that was to have a strong base from and that was to have a strong base from which to launch which to launch which to launch and the other one was the tactics that i and the other one was the tactics that i and the other one was the tactics that i implemented to get enough momentum to implemented to get enough momentum to implemented to get enough momentum to get this thing out into the world get this thing out into the world get this thing out into the world so let's first talk about building your so let's first talk about building your so let's first talk about building your base base base now to get this started you're going to now to get this started you're going to now to get this started you're going to need a strong launch pad that you can need a strong launch pad that you can need a strong launch pad that you can push off of push off of push off of and the great thing about this part is and the great thing about this part is and the great thing about this part is it's something that you can work on it's something that you can work on it's something that you can work on way before you ever start building a way before you ever start building a way before you ever start building a single thing single thing single thing and for me the first part of this base and for me the first part of this base and for me the first part of this base is made out of is made out of is made out of confidence and skills and and this confidence and skills and and this confidence and skills and and this component component component took a good ten years for me to build took a good ten years for me to build took a good ten years for me to build and and and you know i'll just put it out there i'm you know i'll just put it out there i'm you know i'll just put it out there i'm not the most confident person in the not the most confident person in the not the most confident person in the world world world you know many days on this journey i've you know many days on this journey i've you know many days on this journey i've woken up and been like oh my god woken up and been like oh my god woken up and been like oh my god what did i get myself into can i really what did i get myself into can i really what did i get myself into can i really do this do this do this and you know other days it's like okay and you know other days it's like okay and you know other days it's like okay this is great i can't believe i get to this is great i can't believe i get to this is great i can't believe i get to do this on a day-to-day basis this is do this on a day-to-day basis this is do this on a day-to-day basis this is awesome awesome awesome so you know while i'm not 100 confident so you know while i'm not 100 confident so you know while i'm not 100 confident i am about 80 of the way there i am about 80 of the way there i am about 80 of the way there and i realized before starting that this and i realized before starting that this and i realized before starting that this that if if i could get to 80 that if if i could get to 80 that if if i could get to 80 confident and build the skills that i confident and build the skills that i confident and build the skills that i knew that i would need knew that i would need knew that i would need i could manage to pick up the rest along i could manage to pick up the rest along i could manage to pick up the rest along the way the way the way so i started working on more and more

so i started working on more and more so i started working on more and more ambitious projects ambitious projects ambitious projects now rob calls this the stair-step now rob calls this the stair-step now rob calls this the stair-step approach and it's an approach that approach and it's an approach that approach and it's an approach that took that i took that worked for me all right so i started off in a all right so i started off in a corporate gig corporate gig corporate gig i was doing project management for i was doing project management for i was doing project management for government government government i.t infrastructure projects let me tell i.t infrastructure projects let me tell i.t infrastructure projects let me tell you you you it was a complete snooze fest i could it was a complete snooze fest i could it was a complete snooze fest i could only push papers around only push papers around only push papers around and follow arbitrary processes for so and follow arbitrary processes for so and follow arbitrary processes for so long before i began to ask long before i began to ask long before i began to ask is this really something i want to do is this really something i want to do is this really something i want to do the rest of my life the rest of my life the rest of my life so a couple years into this role i so a couple years into this role i so a couple years into this role i decided to start a little info products decided to start a little info products decided to start a little info products business on this side business on this side business on this side there i learned the basics of running a there i learned the basics of running a there i learned the basics of running a little internet business little internet business little internet business how to build and distribute a product how to build and distribute a product how to build and distribute a product and how to make a little bit of money on and how to make a little bit of money on and how to make a little bit of money on the web the web the web however i also learned that you should however i also learned that you should however i also learned that you should pick pick pick a niche you like and you should pick a a niche you like and you should pick a a niche you like and you should pick a market that is going to be able to market that is going to be able to market that is going to be able to support you financially support you financially support you financially now i didn't either i picked a niche now i didn't either i picked a niche now i didn't either i picked a niche that could not support me that could not support me that could not support me and i quickly began bumping up against and i quickly began bumping up against and i quickly began bumping up against the wall the wall the wall now the goal was always to build a now the goal was always to build a now the goal was always to build a product but i didn't feel like i was product but i didn't feel like i was product but i didn't feel like i was quite there yet i was missing some quite there yet i was missing some quite there yet i was missing some skills skills skills and i realized that so i swallowed my and i realized that so i swallowed my and i realized that so i swallowed my pride pride pride and i went and i got a job working for and i went and i got a job working for and i went and i got a job working for someone else someone else someone else now i was managing someone else's now i was managing someone else's now i was managing someone else's product but i was working on developing product but i was working on developing product but i was working on developing my product sense my product sense my product sense learning how to manage a development learning how to manage a development learning how to manage a development team do onboarding calls team do onboarding calls team do onboarding calls conduct customer interviews and all

conduct customer interviews and all conduct customer interviews and all other things that come along with other things that come along with other things that come along with running a sas product running a sas product running a sas product and after a few years i was a bit tired and after a few years i was a bit tired and after a few years i was a bit tired this darn idea was still knocking down this darn idea was still knocking down this darn idea was still knocking down my door my door my door i was ready for a change my confidence i was ready for a change my confidence i was ready for a change my confidence was was was almost there and i had developed the almost there and i had developed the almost there and i had developed the skills that i need to get started skills that i need to get started skills that i need to get started but confidence and skills aren't the but confidence and skills aren't the but confidence and skills aren't the only thing that you need to construct only thing that you need to construct only thing that you need to construct your launch pad your launch pad your launch pad you you need a community now you you need a community now you you need a community now i'd always thought of myself as a bit of i'd always thought of myself as a bit of i'd always thought of myself as a bit of a lone wolf like a lone wolf like a lone wolf like i don't need anyone i could do this on i don't need anyone i could do this on i don't need anyone i could do this on my own it's going to be fine my own it's going to be fine my own it's going to be fine but over time i started working out but over time i started working out but over time i started working out finding a community finding a community finding a community and now that i have one i realized just and now that i have one i realized just and now that i have one i realized just how critical how critical how critical it has been along the way and there are it has been along the way and there are it has been along the way and there are some really great communities out there some really great communities out there some really great communities out there micro conf connect is a great example micro conf connect is a great example micro conf connect is a great example there's also indie hackers maker pad there's also indie hackers maker pad there's also indie hackers maker pad women make women make women make i'm in the go rails community and i love i'm in the go rails community and i love i'm in the go rails community and i love that so that so that so go find a community contribute and give go find a community contribute and give go find a community contribute and give more than you take more than you take more than you take really dig in and find your tribe really dig in and find your tribe really dig in and find your tribe next up join a mastermind they're going next up join a mastermind they're going next up join a mastermind they're going to give you the accountability that you to give you the accountability that you to give you the accountability that you need to push through from week to week need to push through from week to week need to push through from week to week and they're going to be the sounding and they're going to be the sounding and they're going to be the sounding board that you need on this board that you need on this board that you need on this often lonely path my mastermind group often lonely path my mastermind group often lonely path my mastermind group members are on the call supporting me members are on the call supporting me members are on the call supporting me right now so right now so right now so hey guys also consider getting a mentor hey guys also consider getting a mentor hey guys also consider getting a mentor now if you're going to go straight up now if you're going to go straight up now if you're going to go straight up ask someone that has ask someone that has ask someone that has never heard from you will you be my never heard from you will you be my never heard from you will you be my mentor you're probably not going to have mentor you're probably not going to have mentor you're probably not going to have a good time

a good time a good time you know the people you want to be your you know the people you want to be your you know the people you want to be your mentor are often really busy mentor are often really busy mentor are often really busy in demand people so that being said in demand people so that being said in demand people so that being said if you get stuck on something and you if you get stuck on something and you if you get stuck on something and you want them to weigh in want them to weigh in want them to weigh in maybe type it up in an email add a maybe type it up in an email add a maybe type it up in an email add a little context little context little context shoot it over to them and if they shoot it over to them and if they shoot it over to them and if they respond respond respond then that's great you know you take then that's great you know you take then that's great you know you take their advice their advice their advice and you work on closing that feedback and you work on closing that feedback and you work on closing that feedback loop let them know how their loop let them know how their loop let them know how their you know their advice went and you know you know their advice went and you know you know their advice went and you know start building that relationship start building that relationship start building that relationship and if they don't respond no worries and if they don't respond no worries and if they don't respond no worries okay um and then okay um and then okay um and then finally this is this kind of this kind finally this is this kind of this kind finally this is this kind of this kind of thing is something that i wish i had of thing is something that i wish i had of thing is something that i wish i had known before i had gotten started so i known before i had gotten started so i known before i had gotten started so i just wanted to make sure just wanted to make sure just wanted to make sure to include it realize that not everyone to include it realize that not everyone to include it realize that not everyone is going is going is going to understand this path you know it's to understand this path you know it's to understand this path you know it's not a role not a role not a role at some famous corporation complete with at some famous corporation complete with at some famous corporation complete with a matching 401k a matching 401k a matching 401k plan and three weeks vacation it's a plan and three weeks vacation it's a plan and three weeks vacation it's a little different little different little different some family and friends may not get it some family and friends may not get it some family and friends may not get it at first and at first and at first and heck even my parents have no idea what heck even my parents have no idea what heck even my parents have no idea what it is that i do on a day-to-day basis it is that i do on a day-to-day basis it is that i do on a day-to-day basis now when xander called me about speaking now when xander called me about speaking now when xander called me about speaking to all of you to all of you to all of you i was so excited one of the first things i was so excited one of the first things i was so excited one of the first things i did when i got off the phone was to i did when i got off the phone was to i did when i got off the phone was to call my parents and let call my parents and let call my parents and let let them know so you know they said hey let them know so you know they said hey let them know so you know they said hey hey mom and dad like i'm gonna be hey mom and dad like i'm gonna be hey mom and dad like i'm gonna be speaking speaking speaking speaking at microcontrol and they're speaking at microcontrol and they're speaking at microcontrol and they're like oh oh that's nice corinne like oh oh that's nice corinne like oh oh that's nice corinne congratulations congratulations congratulations you know that'll be a great thing for you know that'll be a great thing for you know that'll be a great thing for you to put on your resume for when it's

you to put on your resume for when it's you to put on your resume for when it's time to get a real job time to get a real job time to get a real job it's like ouch but you know i think it's like ouch but you know i think it's like ouch but you know i think they'll get it maybe they'll get it maybe they'll get it maybe eventually at least i'm secretly hoping eventually at least i'm secretly hoping eventually at least i'm secretly hoping that they do that they do that they do but the funny thing that i realized from but the funny thing that i realized from but the funny thing that i realized from this is that you don't need permission this is that you don't need permission this is that you don't need permission to go get started on the path like you to go get started on the path like you to go get started on the path like you you can just go get start you can just go get start you can just go get start get go get started so go start get go get started so go start get go get started so go start build your confidence build your skills build your confidence build your skills build your confidence build your skills and then get ready for the next phase and then get ready for the next phase and then get ready for the next phase get something out there and start get something out there and start get something out there and start building your momentum building your momentum building your momentum all right so let's start with the most all right so let's start with the most all right so let's start with the most logical place to start logical place to start logical place to start the idea now people say there's no such the idea now people say there's no such the idea now people say there's no such thing as a bad idea thing as a bad idea thing as a bad idea but i would say that a really good idea but i would say that a really good idea but i would say that a really good idea can help you get a lot more momentum can help you get a lot more momentum can help you get a lot more momentum than say just than say just than say just an okay idea now an okay idea now an okay idea now even though i had this idea for speckled even though i had this idea for speckled even though i had this idea for speckled i still spent some time making sure it i still spent some time making sure it i still spent some time making sure it was a good one and making sure it was a was a good one and making sure it was a was a good one and making sure it was a valid problem valid problem valid problem so i went and i made sure people were so i went and i made sure people were so i went and i made sure people were talking about this problem online that talking about this problem online that talking about this problem online that people were people were people were complaining about it in forums and complaining about it in forums and complaining about it in forums and websites and websites and websites and you know all those places online you know all those places online you know all those places online so you know that that was there i made so you know that that was there i made so you know that that was there i made sure people understood this category sure people understood this category sure people understood this category and were buying things like it i was not and were buying things like it i was not and were buying things like it i was not quite ready to quite ready to quite ready to start a whole product in a category that start a whole product in a category that start a whole product in a category that no one understood so i wanted to make no one understood so i wanted to make no one understood so i wanted to make sure that this was a category sure that this was a category sure that this was a category that existed and that existed and that existed and i wanted to make sure that i enjoy being

i wanted to make sure that i enjoy being i wanted to make sure that i enjoy being around the kind of people who have this around the kind of people who have this around the kind of people who have this problem problem problem now i'm a product manager i love product now i'm a product manager i love product now i'm a product manager i love product people so i was like okay people so i was like okay people so i was like okay i think i'm good with that one i can i think i'm good with that one i can i think i'm good with that one i can hold my own hold my own hold my own and this was kind of the basic criteria and this was kind of the basic criteria and this was kind of the basic criteria that i made sure to that i made sure to that i made sure to suss out and make sure that this was a suss out and make sure that this was a suss out and make sure that this was a decent idea decent idea decent idea now there may be more questions out now there may be more questions out now there may be more questions out there you want to consider but these there you want to consider but these there you want to consider but these were the ones that worked for me were the ones that worked for me were the ones that worked for me okay so you want to start off with a okay so you want to start off with a okay so you want to start off with a decent idea and then it's time to do decent idea and then it's time to do decent idea and then it's time to do some dun dun dun marketing yep if that makes you marketing yep if that makes you if that makes you squirm then i am right if that makes you squirm then i am right if that makes you squirm then i am right there with you there with you there with you now i feel like this is an obligatory now i feel like this is an obligatory now i feel like this is an obligatory microcomp slide microcomp slide microcomp slide i feel like it's advice that is commonly i feel like it's advice that is commonly i feel like it's advice that is commonly dished out dished out dished out and it's commonly ignored and i think i and it's commonly ignored and i think i and it's commonly ignored and i think i know why know why know why it's just that building is just it's just that building is just it's just that building is just so much fun like who doesn't love going so much fun like who doesn't love going so much fun like who doesn't love going into this flow state and doing all the into this flow state and doing all the into this flow state and doing all the stuff that they love to do and stuff that they love to do and stuff that they love to do and talking about yourself and hyping up talking about yourself and hyping up talking about yourself and hyping up your product is super your product is super your product is super super uncomfortable most introverts like super uncomfortable most introverts like super uncomfortable most introverts like us us us don't really like to toot our own horn don't really like to toot our own horn don't really like to toot our own horn it's awkward it's awkward it's awkward and quite honestly it sucks but and quite honestly it sucks but and quite honestly it sucks but you know what sucks more going into a you know what sucks more going into a you know what sucks more going into a flow state flow state flow state for a couple of months surfacing for air for a couple of months surfacing for air for a couple of months surfacing for air with something that's ready for the with something that's ready for the with something that's ready for the market market market and realizing you haven't told anyone and realizing you haven't told anyone and realizing you haven't told anyone about it yet about it yet about it yet so we're going to try to avoid that and

so we're going to try to avoid that and so we're going to try to avoid that and this is the technique i use this is the technique i use this is the technique i use to avoid that and it's um to avoid that and it's um to avoid that and it's um by building a reverse press release this by building a reverse press release this by building a reverse press release this is kind of something that amazon does is kind of something that amazon does is kind of something that amazon does for their new products for their new products for their new products so before anything is ever built you so before anything is ever built you so before anything is ever built you write a press release write a press release write a press release hyping up your new product talking about hyping up your new product talking about hyping up your new product talking about its features its features its features the value that users are going to get the value that users are going to get the value that users are going to get from it and heck maybe even throw some from it and heck maybe even throw some from it and heck maybe even throw some fake customer testimonials in there for fake customer testimonials in there for fake customer testimonials in there for good measure good measure good measure now once you've shaped up a product that now once you've shaped up a product that now once you've shaped up a product that you'd be happy to see hit the market you'd be happy to see hit the market you'd be happy to see hit the market then it's time to take some of that then it's time to take some of that then it's time to take some of that language add it to a landing page language add it to a landing page language add it to a landing page and make sure you add an email capture and make sure you add an email capture and make sure you add an email capture now spend a little plan time promoting now spend a little plan time promoting now spend a little plan time promoting that around a bit that around a bit that around a bit and you'll start seeing new emails and you'll start seeing new emails and you'll start seeing new emails trickle onto your list trickle onto your list trickle onto your list now then and only then do you actually now then and only then do you actually now then and only then do you actually go go go and build the darn thing and build the darn thing and build the darn thing now as you may have picked up i am not now as you may have picked up i am not now as you may have picked up i am not an engineer by training an engineer by training an engineer by training i only started teaching myself how to i only started teaching myself how to i only started teaching myself how to code last year code last year code last year end of last year really and still have a end of last year really and still have a end of last year really and still have a bit of a way to go bit of a way to go bit of a way to go still though i was very optimistic on still though i was very optimistic on still though i was very optimistic on how much i could get done how much i could get done how much i could get done and how quickly i could do it you know i and how quickly i could do it you know i and how quickly i could do it you know i remember remember remember writing in my journal in january be like writing in my journal in january be like writing in my journal in january be like ah i could totally launch this by march ah i could totally launch this by march ah i could totally launch this by march in march i wrote oh yeah it'll be done in march i wrote oh yeah it'll be done in march i wrote oh yeah it'll be done by april by april by april maybe in april it was like okay i think maybe in april it was like okay i think maybe in april it was like okay i think i could get it down i could get it down i could get it down down by uh down by may and you know down by uh down by may and you know down by uh down by may and you know things just kept getting getting pushed

things just kept getting getting pushed things just kept getting getting pushed back and it was late february i was on a back and it was late february i was on a back and it was late february i was on a call with one of my code mentors call with one of my code mentors call with one of my code mentors and i was walking him through this and i was walking him through this and i was walking him through this problem that i was having problem that i was having problem that i was having and he basically told me that i was and he basically told me that i was and he basically told me that i was making this entirely too complicated for making this entirely too complicated for making this entirely too complicated for myself myself myself i had all these tables in my application i had all these tables in my application i had all these tables in my application and a very academic understanding of and a very academic understanding of and a very academic understanding of what a database should look like what a database should look like what a database should look like so already a couple months in i was so already a couple months in i was so already a couple months in i was tearing tearing tearing everything apart starting all over again everything apart starting all over again everything apart starting all over again and it was a bummer but from this i and it was a bummer but from this i and it was a bummer but from this i learned learned learned to keep it simple instead of adding to keep it simple instead of adding to keep it simple instead of adding features cut them features cut them features cut them now this is what my initial mock-up for now this is what my initial mock-up for now this is what my initial mock-up for my product my product my product look like okay nothing too crazy look like okay nothing too crazy look like okay nothing too crazy but here is what i actually launched but here is what i actually launched but here is what i actually launched with with with just this part in this pink box just just this part in this pink box just just this part in this pink box just this little prioritization feature this little prioritization feature this little prioritization feature and had i tried to get everything on and had i tried to get everything on and had i tried to get everything on here done here done here done i probably would have lost any momentum i probably would have lost any momentum i probably would have lost any momentum and sent this project to join the many and sent this project to join the many and sent this project to join the many others in my project graveyard others in my project graveyard others in my project graveyard now it did feel super underwhelming to now it did feel super underwhelming to now it did feel super underwhelming to launch with this i'm not going to lie launch with this i'm not going to lie launch with this i'm not going to lie but the thing is i got it out there but the thing is i got it out there but the thing is i got it out there and even getting this out there was a and even getting this out there was a and even getting this out there was a bit of a struggle to be honest bit of a struggle to be honest bit of a struggle to be honest that last 10 of the work was taking that last 10 of the work was taking that last 10 of the work was taking the same amount of time as the first 90 the same amount of time as the first 90 the same amount of time as the first 90 it was like it was like it was like wtf i kept hearing myself say wtf i kept hearing myself say wtf i kept hearing myself say oh i'll just build this one more thing oh i'll just build this one more thing oh i'll just build this one more thing this one more feature this one more feature this one more feature i just need to make this one more bug

i just need to make this one more bug i just need to make this one more bug fix i just need to fix up the ui ux it fix i just need to fix up the ui ux it fix i just need to fix up the ui ux it needs a little bit of tweaking it's not needs a little bit of tweaking it's not needs a little bit of tweaking it's not quite there yet quite there yet quite there yet still need to add notifications so on still need to add notifications so on still need to add notifications so on and so forth and so forth and so forth now fortunately i realized that i was now fortunately i realized that i was now fortunately i realized that i was killing my killing my killing my own momentum so one day after fixing own momentum so one day after fixing own momentum so one day after fixing some issues some issues some issues uh i i realized it was uh i i realized it was uh i i realized it was it was good it was good enough you know it was good it was good enough you know it was good it was good enough you know it wasn't perfect it wasn't perfect it wasn't perfect but it wasn't you know absolutely but it wasn't you know absolutely but it wasn't you know absolutely terrible terrible terrible so one morning i pushed everything to so one morning i pushed everything to so one morning i pushed everything to production production production i let that marketing list that i had so i let that marketing list that i had so i let that marketing list that i had so conveniently conveniently conveniently built up a few months ago know built up a few months ago know built up a few months ago know that you know hey it's live it's ready that you know hey it's live it's ready that you know hey it's live it's ready to try out to try out to try out and i watched as some users rolled into and i watched as some users rolled into and i watched as some users rolled into my production my production my production database you know there was no splashy database you know there was no splashy database you know there was no splashy product hunt launch product hunt launch product hunt launch there was no launch party heck i don't there was no launch party heck i don't there was no launch party heck i don't think i even popped open a bottle of think i even popped open a bottle of think i even popped open a bottle of wine or cracked open a beer wine or cracked open a beer wine or cracked open a beer but and what i did have was a product but and what i did have was a product but and what i did have was a product that was in motion that was in motion that was in motion it was out in the world it's picking up it was out in the world it's picking up it was out in the world it's picking up momentum momentum momentum users are starting to use it and now i'm users are starting to use it and now i'm users are starting to use it and now i'm trying to figure out how to trying to figure out how to trying to figure out how to build and maintain my momentum and to be build and maintain my momentum and to be build and maintain my momentum and to be honest honest honest this is a work in progress from what this is a work in progress from what this is a work in progress from what i've learned so far i've learned so far i've learned so far you know feedback has been critical in you know feedback has been critical in you know feedback has been critical in this part this part this part and learning how to take it how to take and learning how to take it how to take and learning how to take it how to take it not personally it not personally it not personally has been a challenge and it's been a

has been a challenge and it's been a has been a challenge and it's been a really good learning lesson really good learning lesson really good learning lesson now i'm definitely not good at it by any now i'm definitely not good at it by any now i'm definitely not good at it by any means i remember means i remember means i remember i got my first piece of negative i got my first piece of negative i got my first piece of negative feedback i was out camping feedback i was out camping feedback i was out camping i checked my phone because i'm i checked my phone because i'm i checked my phone because i'm apparently the kind of person who brings apparently the kind of person who brings apparently the kind of person who brings their phone camping their phone camping their phone camping i know shame on me and i saw this piece i know shame on me and i saw this piece i know shame on me and i saw this piece of negative feedback come in and i was of negative feedback come in and i was of negative feedback come in and i was like oh like oh like oh man like this sucks so i sit there man like this sucks so i sit there man like this sucks so i sit there wallowing myself pity for about 15-20 wallowing myself pity for about 15-20 wallowing myself pity for about 15-20 minutes minutes minutes stare into the campfire and realize that stare into the campfire and realize that stare into the campfire and realize that you know this you know this you know this feedback is a gift and you can use the feedback is a gift and you can use the feedback is a gift and you can use the feedback that you get after you launched feedback that you get after you launched feedback that you get after you launched to work on iterating your product and to work on iterating your product and to work on iterating your product and building a better product building a better product building a better product so you could do a lot of positive with so you could do a lot of positive with so you could do a lot of positive with the feedback that you get the feedback that you get the feedback that you get and also combined with using your own and also combined with using your own and also combined with using your own product you'll quickly figure out what product you'll quickly figure out what product you'll quickly figure out what it is that you need to work on improving it is that you need to work on improving it is that you need to work on improving so in review we talked about so in review we talked about so in review we talked about building your base and how building a building your base and how building a building your base and how building a community community community your confidence and your skills is going your confidence and your skills is going your confidence and your skills is going to set you up on the path to set you up on the path to set you up on the path for success down the road how for success down the road how for success down the road how a good idea is going to help carry your a good idea is going to help carry your a good idea is going to help carry your momentum momentum momentum a bit more than say an okay idea a bit more than say an okay idea a bit more than say an okay idea and of course then you could go you know and of course then you could go you know and of course then you could go you know by the domain and start thinking about by the domain and start thinking about by the domain and start thinking about some of the fun parts some of the fun parts some of the fun parts but before you do that but before you do that but before you do that spend a couple of days setting up a very spend a couple of days setting up a very spend a couple of days setting up a very basic marketing system basic marketing system basic marketing system so that when you do come up from air for so that when you do come up from air for so that when you do come up from air for air after building this air after building this air after building this you know you're not starting from a dead

you know you're not starting from a dead you know you're not starting from a dead stop you do have some momentum and some stop you do have some momentum and some stop you do have some momentum and some some place to go from here some place to go from here some place to go from here and to be honest i'm not sure what and to be honest i'm not sure what and to be honest i'm not sure what happens after this part happens after this part happens after this part i'm really looking forward to hearing i'm really looking forward to hearing i'm really looking forward to hearing some of the other speakers some of the other speakers some of the other speakers that are going to be coming later today that are going to be coming later today that are going to be coming later today to see maybe what's in store for me down to see maybe what's in store for me down to see maybe what's in store for me down the road the road the road but in the meantime i hope you learned a but in the meantime i hope you learned a but in the meantime i hope you learned a bit from the story about how i bit from the story about how i bit from the story about how i launched speckled and how it got started launched speckled and how it got started launched speckled and how it got started off pretty slow off pretty slow off pretty slow how i managed to build up some momentum how i managed to build up some momentum how i managed to build up some momentum with a decent idea with a decent idea with a decent idea a very simple marketing system and a a very simple marketing system and a a very simple marketing system and a paired down product paired down product paired down product and how i inadvertently launched to make and how i inadvertently launched to make and how i inadvertently launched to make sure that i could keep my momentum going sure that i could keep my momentum going sure that i could keep my momentum going now if you're thinking about taking this now if you're thinking about taking this now if you're thinking about taking this path and launching your own product path and launching your own product path and launching your own product hopefully with a bit of a more hopefully with a bit of a more hopefully with a bit of a more deliberate launch than i did deliberate launch than i did deliberate launch than i did i'd highly recommend it it is incredibly i'd highly recommend it it is incredibly i'd highly recommend it it is incredibly rewarding rewarding rewarding and i think you're going to enjoy the and i think you're going to enjoy the and i think you're going to enjoy the ride you got it well corinne ride you got it well corinne ride you got it well corinne again audience questions are gonna start again audience questions are gonna start again audience questions are gonna start coming in i'm gonna kick us off with a coming in i'm gonna kick us off with a coming in i'm gonna kick us off with a couple questions couple questions couple questions um that i had for you great talk i um that i had for you great talk i um that i had for you great talk i really really really enjoyed it and loved hearing your story enjoyed it and loved hearing your story enjoyed it and loved hearing your story um um um i think the the first thing i wanted to i think the the first thing i wanted to i think the the first thing i wanted to ask is about the stair-step approach ask is about the stair-step approach ask is about the stair-step approach that you mentioned that you mentioned that you mentioned um what i've noticed is i personally um what i've noticed is i personally um what i've noticed is i personally traveled the stair step traveled the stair step traveled the stair step approach but i didn't realize i was approach but i didn't realize i was approach but i didn't realize i was doing it as i was doing it that wasn't doing it as i was doing it that wasn't doing it as i was doing it that wasn't my goal from the start necessarily i was my goal from the start necessarily i was my goal from the start necessarily i was just so risk-averse i didn't want to just so risk-averse i didn't want to just so risk-averse i didn't want to build the big sas app quit the day job i build the big sas app quit the day job i build the big sas app quit the day job i had a wife and a kid and a mortgage and had a wife and a kid and a mortgage and had a wife and a kid and a mortgage and all that all that all that i'm curious with you did you from the i'm curious with you did you from the i'm curious with you did you from the start think i'm going to build the small start think i'm going to build the small start think i'm going to build the small one and then the next and next and next one and then the next and next and next one and then the next and next and next level up or was it more of an

level up or was it more of an level up or was it more of an inadvertent walk down that path inadvertent walk down that path inadvertent walk down that path it was probably a combo of the two i it was probably a combo of the two i it was probably a combo of the two i think that i probably got to think that i probably got to think that i probably got to the info products business and i was the info products business and i was the info products business and i was like okay like this is cool like this is like okay like this is cool like this is like okay like this is cool like this is a path that i a path that i a path that i i could take in the future but i'm not i could take in the future but i'm not i could take in the future but i'm not sure i would like to do a product in the sure i would like to do a product in the sure i would like to do a product in the future future future and i'm not quite there so i think i'm and i'm not quite there so i think i'm and i'm not quite there so i think i'm gonna need to take a couple stair steps gonna need to take a couple stair steps gonna need to take a couple stair steps so i kind of got there so i kind of got there so i kind of got there halfway there organically and then the halfway there organically and then the halfway there organically and then the rest of it was a little bit more planned rest of it was a little bit more planned rest of it was a little bit more planned yeah yeah i think that's a pretty common yeah yeah i think that's a pretty common yeah yeah i think that's a pretty common story actually i think some people story actually i think some people story actually i think some people start doing it because they want to keep start doing it because they want to keep start doing it because they want to keep the day job or they don't want to leap the day job or they don't want to leap the day job or they don't want to leap from one island to the next they want to from one island to the next they want to from one island to the next they want to have you know a foot on both of them have you know a foot on both of them have you know a foot on both of them and then once they hear about it it's and then once they hear about it it's and then once they hear about it it's like a theory that matches up with what like a theory that matches up with what like a theory that matches up with what they wanted to do they wanted to do they wanted to do anyways you know and it kind of gives anyways you know and it kind of gives anyways you know and it kind of gives them permission to do it i think them permission to do it i think them permission to do it i think another thing i want to touch on is another thing i want to touch on is another thing i want to touch on is about you talked about asking for about you talked about asking for about you talked about asking for permission permission permission um which is something i've harped on um which is something i've harped on um which is something i've harped on quite a bit because quite a bit because quite a bit because i've spoken at events where it's just i've spoken at events where it's just i've spoken at events where it's just tech founders but i've spoken at events tech founders but i've spoken at events tech founders but i've spoken at events where there were like filmmakers where there were like filmmakers where there were like filmmakers and and writers and i've noticed that and and writers and i've noticed that and and writers and i've noticed that there's a very similar there's a very similar there's a very similar um i don't know mentality that a lot of um i don't know mentality that a lot of um i don't know mentality that a lot of us are scared to ship us are scared to ship us are scared to ship and and with writers i say are authors and and with writers i say are authors and and with writers i say are authors you know i say don't ask for permission you know i say don't ask for permission you know i say don't ask for permission from a publisher or agent from a publisher or agent from a publisher or agent go write like you look at andy weir who go write like you look at andy weir who go write like you look at andy weir who wrote the martian he started writing and wrote the martian he started writing and wrote the martian he started writing and publishing it on his blog and it was publishing it on his blog and it was publishing it on his blog and it was really good and people started liking it really good and people started liking it really good and people started liking it and then he eventually published it into and then he eventually published it into and then he eventually published it into a book he just wrote a book he just wrote a book he just wrote um filmmakers you can say i need money um filmmakers you can say i need money um filmmakers you can say i need money from a studio you can say i need from a studio you can say i need from a studio you can say i need permission permission permission to get distribution or you can do what to get distribution or you can do what to get distribution or you can do what kevin smith or robert rodriguez did kevin smith or robert rodriguez did kevin smith or robert rodriguez did and you can go out and just shoot a film and you can go out and just shoot a film and you can go out and just shoot a film for 20 grand you know and it's not going

for 20 grand you know and it's not going for 20 grand you know and it's not going to be the best film ever but it's at to be the best film ever but it's at to be the best film ever but it's at least something that you're making and least something that you're making and least something that you're making and putting into the world putting into the world putting into the world the same thing with startup founders i the same thing with startup founders i the same thing with startup founders i feel like a lot of founders are waiting feel like a lot of founders are waiting feel like a lot of founders are waiting for permission for permission for permission i mean in the silicon valley narrative i mean in the silicon valley narrative i mean in the silicon valley narrative it's waiting for permission from it's waiting for permission from it's waiting for permission from people to write you a big check to do it people to write you a big check to do it people to write you a big check to do it like i can't do it without 10 million like i can't do it without 10 million like i can't do it without 10 million bucks and it's like bucks and it's like bucks and it's like no you can a bunch of people have no you can a bunch of people have no you can a bunch of people have already done that already done that already done that um but in your case you know you really um but in your case you know you really um but in your case you know you really talked about almost talked about almost talked about almost asking for permission from uh i don't asking for permission from uh i don't asking for permission from uh i don't know it's like from know it's like from know it's like from it wasn't you weren't waiting for it wasn't you weren't waiting for it wasn't you weren't waiting for funding but you were like waiting for funding but you were like waiting for funding but you were like waiting for uh was it permission from yourself or uh was it permission from yourself or uh was it permission from yourself or talk about that a little more about what talk about that a little more about what talk about that a little more about what your particular you know predicament was your particular you know predicament was your particular you know predicament was there there there yeah i mean i definitely always had a yeah i mean i definitely always had a yeah i mean i definitely always had a little bit of imposter syndrome and i little bit of imposter syndrome and i little bit of imposter syndrome and i was like okay well maybe if someone else was like okay well maybe if someone else was like okay well maybe if someone else tells me that i can go tells me that i can go tells me that i can go and do this then i can go and do this um and do this then i can go and do this um and do this then i can go and do this um but you know i think you know i i just but you know i think you know i i just but you know i think you know i i just like having this like having this like having this knowing that i have the support of knowing that i have the support of knowing that i have the support of people but eventually it got to the people but eventually it got to the people but eventually it got to the point where point where point where you know eventually you just don't care you know eventually you just don't care you know eventually you just don't care as much and you're just like i'm just as much and you're just like i'm just as much and you're just like i'm just gonna do it gonna do it gonna do it screw it so um yeah so i just uh screw it so um yeah so i just uh screw it so um yeah so i just uh i just went i just learned to get over i just went i just learned to get over i just went i just learned to get over that uh that feeling of um that uh that feeling of um that uh that feeling of um needing permission to go do it and just needing permission to go do it and just needing permission to go do it and just do it and it definitely was a little bit do it and it definitely was a little bit do it and it definitely was a little bit of a learned skill like of a learned skill like of a learned skill like and i remember the first time i told my and i remember the first time i told my and i remember the first time i told my parents i was even starting like an info parents i was even starting like an info parents i was even starting like an info products business and they're like products business and they're like products business and they're like why don't you just stay with your job why don't you just stay with your job why don't you just stay with your job and you know and you know and you know have that 401k plan and the benefits and have that 401k plan and the benefits and have that 401k plan and the benefits and everything that comes along with it but everything that comes along with it but everything that comes along with it but you know that's not what i wanted to do you know that's not what i wanted to do you know that's not what i wanted to do right and that's the part you touched on right and that's the part you touched on right and that's the part you touched on where family and friends aren't going to where family and friends aren't going to where family and friends aren't going to understand i ran through the same thing understand i ran through the same thing understand i ran through the same thing um no one in my family was or friends

um no one in my family was or friends um no one in my family was or friends were entrepreneurs and so i got were entrepreneurs and so i got were entrepreneurs and so i got questioned a lot as well as even like questioned a lot as well as even like questioned a lot as well as even like yeah yeah yeah it's always gonna be a struggle um i it's always gonna be a struggle um i it's always gonna be a struggle um i have some questions coming in for you have some questions coming in for you have some questions coming in for you first question says i love the press first question says i love the press first question says i love the press release idea release idea release idea how do you push it meaning how do you how do you push it meaning how do you how do you push it meaning how do you promote it organic seo promote it organic seo promote it organic seo ads how do you build buzz how did you ads how do you build buzz how did you ads how do you build buzz how did you build buzz build buzz build buzz around it and that's from deep okay um around it and that's from deep okay um around it and that's from deep okay um yeah actually in terms of the press yeah actually in terms of the press yeah actually in terms of the press release that wasn't something that i release that wasn't something that i release that wasn't something that i actually released into the world it was actually released into the world it was actually released into the world it was more of a thought exercise more of a thought exercise more of a thought exercise on how i wanted to shape this product up on how i wanted to shape this product up on how i wanted to shape this product up and get it to the point where it was and get it to the point where it was and get it to the point where it was something that was something that was something that was exciting to people so it was exciting to people so it was exciting to people so it was a good way to me for me to try to figure a good way to me for me to try to figure a good way to me for me to try to figure out some of the messaging that i could out some of the messaging that i could out some of the messaging that i could then put in my landing page so i didn't then put in my landing page so i didn't then put in my landing page so i didn't necessarily necessarily necessarily publish this or promote this anywhere it publish this or promote this anywhere it publish this or promote this anywhere it was just a document that lived in was just a document that lived in was just a document that lived in you know in my notion and you know i you know in my notion and you know i you know in my notion and you know i just would eventually just would eventually just would eventually and sometimes go back to it just to make and sometimes go back to it just to make and sometimes go back to it just to make sure that i was on the right path sure that i was on the right path sure that i was on the right path and building the thing that was exciting and building the thing that was exciting and building the thing that was exciting to build as i was building it to build as i was building it to build as i was building it yep yeah it's something i've actually yep yeah it's something i've actually yep yeah it's something i've actually done myself um done myself um done myself um to write to write the i didn't just call to write to write the i didn't just call to write to write the i didn't just call it a press release i would call it the it a press release i would call it the it a press release i would call it the landing page landing page landing page so i would start with the landing page so i would start with the landing page so i would start with the landing page before i would build a product or before i would build a product or before i would build a product or write the book or launch like before we write the book or launch like before we write the book or launch like before we launched launched launched the very first microconf mike tabor and the very first microconf mike tabor and the very first microconf mike tabor and i sat down and built a landing page with i sat down and built a landing page with i sat down and built a landing page with all the marketing copy and some all the marketing copy and some all the marketing copy and some headshots of people we thought we wanted headshots of people we thought we wanted headshots of people we thought we wanted to be in to be in to be in and we didn't we didn't release that and we didn't we didn't release that and we didn't we didn't release that before we invited the people but then before we invited the people but then before we invited the people but then that was really the launch you know

that was really the launch you know that was really the launch you know before we booked a hotel that's how before we booked a hotel that's how before we booked a hotel that's how that's how we did it so that's how we did it so that's how we did it so i like that piece of advice um for our i like that piece of advice um for our i like that piece of advice um for our next question we actually have a brave next question we actually have a brave next question we actually have a brave soul who soul who soul who is going to come on and ask it via video is going to come on and ask it via video is going to come on and ask it via video for producer xander we'll bring them on hello my question is you had people sign hello my question is you had people sign up up up on your landing page because they were on your landing page because they were on your landing page because they were curious about the product curious about the product curious about the product how much did you interact or did you how much did you interact or did you how much did you interact or did you interact with those people interact with those people interact with those people at all during your building process at all during your building process at all during your building process i i did email them a couple points i i did email them a couple points i i did email them a couple points throughout the process throughout the process throughout the process um and another thing that was also um and another thing that was also um and another thing that was also helpful was after i sent them to helpful was after i sent them to helpful was after i sent them to that email capture i also sent them to a that email capture i also sent them to a that email capture i also sent them to a thank you page that had you know thank you page that had you know thank you page that had you know what brought you here to you know why what brought you here to you know why what brought you here to you know why were you interested were you interested were you interested in this product today and that helped me in this product today and that helped me in this product today and that helped me get a lot of good information but get a lot of good information but get a lot of good information but yeah i would email people occasionally yeah i would email people occasionally yeah i would email people occasionally on the list but i probably should have on the list but i probably should have on the list but i probably should have done it more than i did to be honest done it more than i did to be honest done it more than i did to be honest but you know hindsight is 20 20.

but you know hindsight is 20 20. but you know hindsight is 20 20. yeah your your first one is always hard yeah your your first one is always hard yeah your your first one is always hard i'll tell you what i so just a quick i'll tell you what i so just a quick i'll tell you what i so just a quick piece on that piece on that piece on that um when we launched drip which was 2013 um when we launched drip which was 2013 um when we launched drip which was 2013 now wow so long ago um we started now wow so long ago um we started now wow so long ago um we started building up a pretty good list building up a pretty good list building up a pretty good list and i had learned enough by then that i and i had learned enough by then that i and i had learned enough by then that i knew that we i should be in contact knew that we i should be in contact knew that we i should be in contact every few months so i was sending some every few months so i was sending some every few months so i was sending some screenshot updates screenshot updates screenshot updates but more importantly i started sending but more importantly i started sending but more importantly i started sending light surveys light surveys light surveys and saying hey what's your role what are and saying hey what's your role what are and saying hey what's your role what are you looking for from drip what do you you looking for from drip what do you you looking for from drip what do you hope it does you know all these hope it does you know all these hope it does you know all these questions and then i was able to segment questions and then i was able to segment questions and then i was able to segment that audience that audience that audience and then i had some one-on-one and then i had some one-on-one and then i had some one-on-one conversations i most via email actually conversations i most via email actually conversations i most via email actually i didn't do a lot of kind of zoom stuff i didn't do a lot of kind of zoom stuff i didn't do a lot of kind of zoom stuff um but that did help us shape the um but that did help us shape the um but that did help us shape the direction of the product from the start direction of the product from the start direction of the product from the start and so and so and so that's a pretty loose framework i think that's a pretty loose framework i think that's a pretty loose framework i think i went pretty in-depth on i went pretty in-depth on i went pretty in-depth on startups for the rest of us which is my startups for the rest of us which is my startups for the rest of us which is my podcast i haven't mentioned yet today podcast i haven't mentioned yet today podcast i haven't mentioned yet today but um but um but um there's an episode there where i talk there's an episode there where i talk there's an episode there where i talk about doing a survey of a pre-launch about doing a survey of a pre-launch about doing a survey of a pre-launch list list list and that really walks through the and that really walks through the and that really walks through the questions i asked and kind of the um questions i asked and kind of the um questions i asked and kind of the um help it gave me but it just goes to show help it gave me but it just goes to show help it gave me but it just goes to show you corinne didn't do that and still had you corinne didn't do that and still had you corinne didn't do that and still had a you know it had a decent launch so a you know it had a decent launch so a you know it had a decent launch so it's like you don't have to do these it's like you don't have to do these it's like you don't have to do these things things things they just add they add a little bit they they just add they add a little bit they they just add they add a little bit they maybe help you a little bit more with maybe help you a little bit more with maybe help you a little bit more with vision or they help you vision or they help you vision or they help you land a few more folks all right another land a few more folks all right another land a few more folks all right another question all right there's another one question all right there's another one question all right there's another one where someone's coming on camera where someone's coming on camera where someone's coming on camera producer xander please roll it producer xander please roll it producer xander please roll it hey corinne thanks so much for your talk hey corinne thanks so much for your talk hey corinne thanks so much for your talk really appreciated it um really appreciated it um really appreciated it um so i've also come from a non-technical so i've also come from a non-technical so i've also come from a non-technical background i'm in sales and business background i'm in sales and business background i'm in sales and business development development development uh where did you learn coding and which uh where did you learn coding and which uh where did you learn coding and which programming language did you start with programming language did you start with programming language did you start with cool yeah so i in the beginning i

cool yeah so i in the beginning i cool yeah so i in the beginning i just took a whole bunch of tutorials and just took a whole bunch of tutorials and just took a whole bunch of tutorials and did all the basic tutorials for a whole did all the basic tutorials for a whole did all the basic tutorials for a whole bunch of languages bunch of languages bunch of languages i ended up going through the ruby on i ended up going through the ruby on i ended up going through the ruby on rails tutorial rails tutorial rails tutorial and that was the one that made the most and that was the one that made the most and that was the one that made the most sense to me sense to me sense to me so that's what i started off with so i so that's what i started off with so i so that's what i started off with so i started off with started off with started off with going through the tutorials finding some going through the tutorials finding some going through the tutorials finding some things online and then i eventually things online and then i eventually things online and then i eventually joined the go rails community joined the go rails community joined the go rails community and they have a really great a bunch of and they have a really great a bunch of and they have a really great a bunch of videos to learn videos to learn videos to learn there so if you're interested in rails there so if you're interested in rails there so if you're interested in rails as the language as the language as the language i would definitely recommend them and i would definitely recommend them and i would definitely recommend them and yeah yeah yeah ruby and rails just made the most sense ruby and rails just made the most sense ruby and rails just made the most sense to me so to me so to me so that's what i ended up going with wasn't that's what i ended up going with wasn't that's what i ended up going with wasn't super anything super exciting wasn't super anything super exciting wasn't super anything super exciting wasn't this this this cool new javascript framework du jour it cool new javascript framework du jour it cool new javascript framework du jour it was just was just was just just rails i still say that just rails i still say that just rails i still say that those old proven tools are like the way those old proven tools are like the way those old proven tools are like the way to go um to go um to go um if i were to build an app today i would if i were to build an app today i would if i were to build an app today i would i would go with something very proven i would go with something very proven i would go with something very proven and also and also and also well i don't know i'm just uh at this well i don't know i'm just uh at this well i don't know i'm just uh at this point i'm not going to be said about point i'm not going to be said about point i'm not going to be said about using boring technology i know i know using boring technology i know i know using boring technology i know i know so much of an ecosystem so we have quite so much of an ecosystem so we have quite so much of an ecosystem so we have quite a few questions and maybe a few questions and maybe a few questions and maybe let's try to lightning round them i let's try to lightning round them i let's try to lightning round them i believe we have six minutes left and we believe we have six minutes left and we believe we have six minutes left and we have 12 questions so let's see how many have 12 questions so let's see how many have 12 questions so let's see how many we get through we get through we get through um the audience was obviously you know um the audience was obviously you know um the audience was obviously you know engaged and interested in what you're engaged and interested in what you're engaged and interested in what you're saying saying saying first question when your first users first question when your first users first question when your first users started trickling in do you know started trickling in do you know started trickling in do you know where they came from was it from your where they came from was it from your where they came from was it from your email list social or something else email list social or something else email list social or something else yeah it was pretty much all for my email yeah it was pretty much all for my email yeah it was pretty much all for my email list uh i hadn't done too much social list uh i hadn't done too much social list uh i hadn't done too much social promotion but yeah it was

promotion but yeah it was promotion but yeah it was it was my email list that was that was it was my email list that was that was it was my email list that was that was the main source the main source the main source email list for the win i'm such a big email list for the win i'm such a big email list for the win i'm such a big proponent i'm glad you touched on that proponent i'm glad you touched on that proponent i'm glad you touched on that all right a question from arthur clef all right a question from arthur clef all right a question from arthur clef kliptukov he says kliptukov he says kliptukov he says how else do you keep your scope focused how else do you keep your scope focused how else do you keep your scope focused and constrained and constrained and constrained for your first launch i don't always for your first launch i don't always for your first launch i don't always know when i'm in a rabbit hole know when i'm in a rabbit hole know when i'm in a rabbit hole thanks arthur yeah that's that's a tough thanks arthur yeah that's that's a tough thanks arthur yeah that's that's a tough question question question um you know i do try to keep uh um you know i do try to keep uh um you know i do try to keep uh my list of all the things that i'm my list of all the things that i'm my list of all the things that i'm working on working on working on i use my own tool for that i keep i use my own tool for that i keep i use my own tool for that i keep everything prioritized and everything prioritized and everything prioritized and i you know it's just if i landed up i you know it's just if i landed up i you know it's just if i landed up taking way more time than i thought it taking way more time than i thought it taking way more time than i thought it was going to take i kind of have to step was going to take i kind of have to step was going to take i kind of have to step back and be like okay why is this taking back and be like okay why is this taking back and be like okay why is this taking so long so long so long uh if i get really stuck i'll um i'll uh if i get really stuck i'll um i'll uh if i get really stuck i'll um i'll call up like a code mentor and be like call up like a code mentor and be like call up like a code mentor and be like hey can you help me through this problem hey can you help me through this problem hey can you help me through this problem and that'll help me get and that'll help me get and that'll help me get through it but yeah you know through it but yeah you know through it but yeah you know it sounds silly but meditating every it sounds silly but meditating every it sounds silly but meditating every morning and having kind of like a high morning and having kind of like a high morning and having kind of like a high level overview of level overview of level overview of what's going on at the moment and making what's going on at the moment and making what's going on at the moment and making sure every week sure every week sure every week um writing down you know what went um writing down you know what went um writing down you know what went poorly last week what was going to poorly last week what was going to poorly last week what was going to happen happen happen this week and you know what can i learn this week and you know what can i learn this week and you know what can i learn from last week and apply to this week so from last week and apply to this week so from last week and apply to this week so you know you know you know making sure that sometimes you know you making sure that sometimes you know you making sure that sometimes you know you get into the rabbit hole get into the rabbit hole get into the rabbit hole and you're like doing your work and you're like doing your work and you're like doing your work sometimes you just need to remember to sometimes you just need to remember to sometimes you just need to remember to zoom out a little bit and you know take zoom out a little bit and you know take zoom out a little bit and you know take a high level overview of a high level overview of a high level overview of what the work that you're doing is

what the work that you're doing is what the work that you're doing is yeah and that's a really nice way to yeah and that's a really nice way to yeah and that's a really nice way to sanity check it um two other sanity check it um two other sanity check it um two other things that i've done because it's a things that i've done because it's a things that i've done because it's a really hard question it's there's no really hard question it's there's no really hard question it's there's no one-size-fits-all but one thing one-size-fits-all but one thing one-size-fits-all but one thing is when i had a co-founder that was is when i had a co-founder that was is when i had a co-founder that was super helpful um when i didn't it was my super helpful um when i didn't it was my super helpful um when i didn't it was my mastermind group mastermind group mastermind group so there were two other three two or so there were two other three two or so there were two other three two or three other folks that i would get three other folks that i would get three other folks that i would get together with every couple weeks together with every couple weeks together with every couple weeks and typically i would say man i'm really and typically i would say man i'm really and typically i would say man i'm really struggling with something i would email struggling with something i would email struggling with something i would email one of them and just set up an impromptu one of them and just set up an impromptu one of them and just set up an impromptu like like like i need to bounce this off the wall you i need to bounce this off the wall you i need to bounce this off the wall you know i need to bounce this off someone know i need to bounce this off someone know i need to bounce this off someone else for a sanity check else for a sanity check else for a sanity check all right we have a text question from all right we have a text question from all right we have a text question from janet a carr janet a carr janet a carr she says corrine could you go into a bit she says corrine could you go into a bit she says corrine could you go into a bit of detail on how and where you of detail on how and where you of detail on how and where you distributed your press release and distributed your press release and distributed your press release and landing page landing page landing page so again you didn't distribute the press so again you didn't distribute the press so again you didn't distribute the press release but how did you promote the release but how did you promote the release but how did you promote the landing page i think landing page i think landing page i think is probably the best way to ask that so is probably the best way to ask that so is probably the best way to ask that so since i was since i was since i was part of the audience that i was selling part of the audience that i was selling part of the audience that i was selling to i knew where they were hanging out to i knew where they were hanging out to i knew where they were hanging out there were a bunch of slack groups there were a bunch of slack groups there were a bunch of slack groups online where online where online where people were hanging out so i started people were hanging out so i started people were hanging out so i started getting getting getting involved there and occasionally you know involved there and occasionally you know involved there and occasionally you know if they had a self-promotion channel i if they had a self-promotion channel i if they had a self-promotion channel i would post it there would post it there would post it there um there's a whole bunch of facebook um there's a whole bunch of facebook um there's a whole bunch of facebook groups you know you just need to find groups you know you just need to find groups you know you just need to find the watering holes that your audience is the watering holes that your audience is the watering holes that your audience is at and at and at and go and participate in them and uh go and participate in them and uh go and participate in them and uh and you'll start to you know get some and you'll start to you know get some and you'll start to you know get some involvement from that audience and you involvement from that audience and you involvement from that audience and you know it can just pick up from there so know it can just pick up from there so know it can just pick up from there so that's that's what i did personally that's that's what i did personally that's that's what i did personally awesome from david mcneil how important awesome from david mcneil how important awesome from david mcneil how important was it for this project was it for this project was it for this project that you were doing it full time whereas that you were doing it full time whereas that you were doing it full time whereas with previous projects you were also with previous projects you were also with previous projects you were also juggling a full-time job

juggling a full-time job juggling a full-time job well to be honest doing it full-time has well to be honest doing it full-time has well to be honest doing it full-time has definitely helped definitely helped definitely helped it definitely gives me a lot more focus it definitely gives me a lot more focus it definitely gives me a lot more focus and you know instead of and you know instead of and you know instead of you know approaching it in two-hour you know approaching it in two-hour you know approaching it in two-hour chunks i can sit down for chunks i can sit down for chunks i can sit down for a good amount of time and really really a good amount of time and really really a good amount of time and really really get get get some of the harder parts and get into some of the harder parts and get into some of the harder parts and get into that flow state so that flow state so that flow state so i think that having it doing it full i think that having it doing it full i think that having it doing it full time was definitely beneficial time was definitely beneficial time was definitely beneficial however you know there's something to be however you know there's something to be however you know there's something to be said about building something on the said about building something on the said about building something on the side side side and you know spending a little bit of and you know spending a little bit of and you know spending a little bit of time chipping away at it here and there time chipping away at it here and there time chipping away at it here and there i don't i don't i don't i don't think there's a right answer for i don't think there's a right answer for i don't think there's a right answer for you know it really depends on what your you know it really depends on what your you know it really depends on what your personality is and what your priorities personality is and what your priorities personality is and what your priorities and and and what's going on in your life at the what's going on in your life at the what's going on in your life at the moment yep moment yep moment yep i would agree all right our next i would agree all right our next i would agree all right our next question is coming to you live from question is coming to you live from question is coming to you live from zachary kessin welcome zachary bruce xander is going to wire him up bruce xander is going to wire him up here we go uh-oh no audio yet uh-oh no audio yet no we don't have audio on zach if we have the text and the question be if we have the text and the question be a text i could read it a text i could read it a text i could read it or producer xander you can send me the or producer xander you can send me the or producer xander you can send me the next one next one next one all right what is a good way to get all right what is a good way to get all right what is a good way to get people into a mailing list people into a mailing list people into a mailing list if you have no traffic hmm i think you kind of have to produce hmm i think you kind of have to produce some traffic some traffic some traffic yeah i think you do have to produce some yeah i think you do have to produce some yeah i think you do have to produce some kind of traffic so kind of traffic so kind of traffic so like i mentioned before getting involved like i mentioned before getting involved like i mentioned before getting involved in the places where my community

in the places where my community in the places where my community where the audience was hanging out was a where the audience was hanging out was a where the audience was hanging out was a good source of traffic for me it was good source of traffic for me it was good source of traffic for me it was probably the best source of traffic that probably the best source of traffic that probably the best source of traffic that i had i had i had so go and get involved in your your so go and get involved in your your so go and get involved in your your audiences communities and you know audiences communities and you know audiences communities and you know you know give more than you take in you know give more than you take in you know give more than you take in those communities you know answer those communities you know answer those communities you know answer questions questions questions you don't have to be the one always you don't have to be the one always you don't have to be the one always promoting what it is that you're working promoting what it is that you're working promoting what it is that you're working on make sure that you're providing value on make sure that you're providing value on make sure that you're providing value to the people there to the people there to the people there and you know then maybe organically and you know then maybe organically and you know then maybe organically they'll check out your little you know they'll check out your little you know they'll check out your little you know profile link and be like okay what is profile link and be like okay what is profile link and be like okay what is this person looking at so this person looking at so this person looking at so yeah all right 26 seconds left corinne yeah all right 26 seconds left corinne yeah all right 26 seconds left corinne last question from last question from last question from georgia nikolev he says did you find georgia nikolev he says did you find georgia nikolev he says did you find your product market fit first your product market fit first your product market fit first or did you have the audience first and or did you have the audience first and or did you have the audience first and you built a product they needed you built a product they needed you built a product they needed i think i went with the audience first i think i went with the audience first i think i went with the audience first approach like i i knew that i really approach like i i knew that i really approach like i i knew that i really wanted to serve wanted to serve wanted to serve project product managers i knew that our project product managers i knew that our project product managers i knew that our lives were pretty chaotic at times and lives were pretty chaotic at times and lives were pretty chaotic at times and that they could use all the help that they could use all the help that they could use all the help that we could get so i i definitely that we could get so i i definitely that we could get so i i definitely concentrated on concentrated on concentrated on product managers first figured out what product managers first figured out what product managers first figured out what problems that they were having that i problems that they were having that i problems that they were having that i was also having was also having was also having and you know went from there so i and you know went from there so i and you know went from there so i definitely went audience first for my definitely went audience first for my definitely went audience first for my project project project corinne pope thank you so much again for corinne pope thank you so much again for corinne pope thank you so much again for joining me on microcomfyremode today joining me on microcomfyremode today joining me on microcomfyremode today it's great to be here it began as an it's great to be here it began as an it's great to be here it began as an idea eager to escape his unnecessarily idea eager to escape his unnecessarily idea eager to escape his unnecessarily complicated dealings with domain hosting complicated dealings with domain hosting complicated dealings with domain hosting anthony eden a mild-mannered web dev anthony eden a mild-mannered web dev anthony eden a mild-mannered web dev with a penchant for surfing thought with a penchant for surfing thought with a penchant for surfing thought this should be simple and dn simple

this should be simple and dn simple this should be simple and dn simple was born i want to make domain name was born i want to make domain name was born i want to make domain name management super simple for everyone to management super simple for everyone to management super simple for everyone to use use use sounds impossible i'm in there would be sounds impossible i'm in there would be sounds impossible i'm in there would be no no no venture capital or giant corporations venture capital or giant corporations venture capital or giant corporations pulling the strings pulling the strings pulling the strings just a tightly knit remote team of just a tightly knit remote team of just a tightly knit remote team of normal folks building the most normal folks building the most normal folks building the most streamlined domain name management streamlined domain name management streamlined domain name management automation the internet automation the internet automation the internet no the world has ever seen no the world has ever seen no the world has ever seen ten years sixteen thousand amazing ten years sixteen thousand amazing ten years sixteen thousand amazing customers and four hundred thousand customers and four hundred thousand customers and four hundred thousand domains later begs the question domains later begs the question domains later begs the question what's next the team worked tirelessly what's next the team worked tirelessly what's next the team worked tirelessly day and night searching for an answer to day and night searching for an answer to day and night searching for an answer to this baffling conundrum this baffling conundrum this baffling conundrum among the proposals a magical domain among the proposals a magical domain among the proposals a magical domain connecting button congratulations connecting button congratulations connecting button congratulations you're connected voice controls connect you're connected voice controls connect you're connected voice controls connect my domain i'm sorry did you say croquet my domain i'm sorry did you say croquet my domain i'm sorry did you say croquet championship they even thought of championship they even thought of championship they even thought of enlisting a soothsayer to connect enlisting a soothsayer to connect enlisting a soothsayer to connect domains before they were even thought of domains before they were even thought of domains before they were even thought of i can see the future but as the team i can see the future but as the team i can see the future but as the team toiled on toiled on toiled on one idea soared above the rest people one idea soared above the rest people one idea soared above the rest people should be able to connect domains to the should be able to connect domains to the should be able to connect domains to the services they use without even thinking services they use without even thinking services they use without even thinking once about dns sounds impossible once about dns sounds impossible once about dns sounds impossible we're in journey with us through the we're in journey with us through the we're in journey with us through the next 10 years of dn next 10 years of dn next 10 years of dn simple anthony is the founder of simple anthony is the founder of simple anthony is the founder of dnsimple he's been a huge supporter of dnsimple he's been a huge supporter of dnsimple he's been a huge supporter of the microcomp community for years the microcomp community for years the microcomp community for years and with a decade of success under his and with a decade of success under his and with a decade of success under his belt he's got some exciting new things belt he's got some exciting new things belt he's got some exciting new things coming up coming up coming up so we're excited to share a few screen so we're excited to share a few screen so we're excited to share a few screen minutes with him to chat about what's minutes with him to chat about what's minutes with him to chat about what's happening happening happening over the next 10 years mr eden welcome over the next 10 years mr eden welcome over the next 10 years mr eden welcome to remote to remote to remote hey thanks hopefully you can hear me hey thanks hopefully you can hear me hey thanks hopefully you can hear me been having a heck of problems with been having a heck of problems with been having a heck of problems with audio today

audio today audio today absolutely no i can hear you loud and absolutely no i can hear you loud and absolutely no i can hear you loud and clear my first question is clear my first question is clear my first question is is for you is surfing long board or is for you is surfing long board or is for you is surfing long board or short short short short board for sure indeed a better short board for sure indeed a better short board for sure indeed a better better man than i i was a longboarder better man than i i was a longboarder better man than i i was a longboarder and not and not and not that good at it so i want to ask you a that good at it so i want to ask you a that good at it so i want to ask you a couple questions over the next couple couple questions over the next couple couple questions over the next couple minutes um minutes um minutes um you bootstrapped d and simple a decade you bootstrapped d and simple a decade you bootstrapped d and simple a decade ago ago ago now you're at about 15 employees now you're at about 15 employees now you're at about 15 employees what made you think 10 years ago i guess what made you think 10 years ago i guess what made you think 10 years ago i guess i'll start with the pain what pain were i'll start with the pain what pain were i'll start with the pain what pain were you solving you solving you solving when you started d and simple it's a when you started d and simple it's a when you started d and simple it's a pretty ambitious idea pretty ambitious idea pretty ambitious idea yeah so the the domain industry at the yeah so the the domain industry at the yeah so the the domain industry at the time was pretty stagnant and i was using time was pretty stagnant and i was using time was pretty stagnant and i was using one of the big players and i just got one of the big players and i just got one of the big players and i just got fed fed fed up with using their i was like i know up with using their i was like i know up with using their i was like i know how all of this works i've been working how all of this works i've been working how all of this works i've been working in the domain industry for years in the domain industry for years in the domain industry for years how is it possible that i am using this how is it possible that i am using this how is it possible that i am using this terrible interface there's no api terrible interface there's no api terrible interface there's no api this is just awful and i think that was this is just awful and i think that was this is just awful and i think that was the initial start of it i just said i the initial start of it i just said i the initial start of it i just said i got to be able to do something that's got to be able to do something that's got to be able to do something that's better than this that's designed for better than this that's designed for better than this that's designed for developers developers developers and for entrepreneurs rather than for uh and for entrepreneurs rather than for uh and for entrepreneurs rather than for uh for somebody who it doesn't need that for somebody who it doesn't need that for somebody who it doesn't need that type of experience so yeah that's how it type of experience so yeah that's how it type of experience so yeah that's how it started started started and i mean you went into a very crowded and i mean you went into a very crowded and i mean you went into a very crowded space obviously competing against space obviously competing against space obviously competing against hundreds and hundreds of other hundreds and hundreds of other hundreds and hundreds of other domain registrars including big big domain registrars including big big domain registrars including big big gorillas you know like godaddy or gorillas you know like godaddy or gorillas you know like godaddy or namecheaper namecheaper namecheaper or these others what kind of what made or these others what kind of what made or these others what kind of what made you think that you could pull that off you think that you could pull that off you think that you could pull that off i think a lot of it just came down to i think a lot of it just came down to i think a lot of it just came down to knowing that there was still knowing that there was still knowing that there was still a gap there there was there was a gap there there was there was a gap there there was there was definitely an underserved definitely an underserved definitely an underserved market of developers like me who were market of developers like me who were market of developers like me who were looking for something with a better

looking for something with a better looking for something with a better experience experience experience um and and they weren't getting that um and and they weren't getting that um and and they weren't getting that from these other providers and those from these other providers and those from these other providers and those other providers other providers other providers really had no incentive to move forward really had no incentive to move forward really had no incentive to move forward in any way the the the battle had been in any way the the the battle had been in any way the the the battle had been to the bottom for prices and to the bottom for prices and to the bottom for prices and and so i i wanted to give it a chance and so i i wanted to give it a chance and so i i wanted to give it a chance and and i took my experience and started and and i took my experience and started and and i took my experience and started trying to work on something really that trying to work on something really that trying to work on something really that that i thought people would want to use that i thought people would want to use that i thought people would want to use and plus and plus and plus we gave good support at the same time we gave good support at the same time we gave good support at the same time and there were a lot of problems at the and there were a lot of problems at the and there were a lot of problems at the time with how do you get somebody who's time with how do you get somebody who's time with how do you get somebody who's intelligent who knows how domains work intelligent who knows how domains work intelligent who knows how domains work and again this comes from just i was in and again this comes from just i was in and again this comes from just i was in the business for a long time before the business for a long time before the business for a long time before giving it a try as starting a business giving it a try as starting a business giving it a try as starting a business and it and it and it felt like the right time even even with felt like the right time even even with felt like the right time even even with all the big players who all the big players who all the big players who were there now and or were there before were there now and or were there before were there now and or were there before and even more who have come in now and even more who have come in now and even more who have come in now yeah that's the thing i think a lot of yeah that's the thing i think a lot of yeah that's the thing i think a lot of founders are scared away by these big founders are scared away by these big founders are scared away by these big markets these competitive spaces markets these competitive spaces markets these competitive spaces but if you can find a massive space but if you can find a massive space but if you can find a massive space there's always all there's always all there's always all almost always room to niche yourself in almost always room to niche yourself in almost always room to niche yourself in especially if you're part of that market especially if you're part of that market especially if you're part of that market you've done it with diane simple you've done it with diane simple you've done it with diane simple i did it with drip you know it was a i did it with drip you know it was a i did it with drip you know it was a nightmare trying to launch an esp but nightmare trying to launch an esp but nightmare trying to launch an esp but you do it and you find that angle but you do it and you find that angle but you do it and you find that angle but you just you can't go head-to-head with you just you can't go head-to-head with you just you can't go head-to-head with them right it's like them right it's like them right it's like you didn't go and try to be godaddy you you didn't go and try to be godaddy you you didn't go and try to be godaddy you tried to be tried to be tried to be the not-go daddy you know or the the not-go daddy you know or the the not-go daddy you know or the not-name cheap or to figure out where not-name cheap or to figure out where not-name cheap or to figure out where the the the the gaps were and where the the gaps were and where the the gaps were and where the opportunities were all right final opportunities were all right final opportunities were all right final final question for you today what is the final question for you today what is the final question for you today what is the thing you're most excited about that you thing you're most excited about that you thing you're most excited about that you guys are launching in the next guys are launching in the next guys are launching in the next you know whatever in the next year or you know whatever in the next year or you know whatever in the next year or two six to 12 months whatever two six to 12 months whatever two six to 12 months whatever we've been working really hard on trying we've been working really hard on trying we've been working really hard on trying to make it an addition to make it an addition to make it an addition a new api into our system where people a new api into our system where people a new api into our system where people can integrate better and can integrate better and can integrate better and push data back into d and simple so you push data back into d and simple so you push data back into d and simple so you can actually for example wire up

can actually for example wire up can actually for example wire up external services and see how they're external services and see how they're external services and see how they're operating for any given domain operating for any given domain operating for any given domain and that's the one i keep pushing to try and that's the one i keep pushing to try and that's the one i keep pushing to try to get to get us to go to because i feel to get to get us to go to because i feel to get to get us to go to because i feel like that's going to be something that's like that's going to be something that's like that's going to be something that's going to be exceptional going to be exceptional going to be exceptional is essentially not just querying into is essentially not just querying into is essentially not just querying into our system but actually pushing back our system but actually pushing back our system but actually pushing back metadata about services and domains metadata about services and domains metadata about services and domains in real time essentially yep amazing in real time essentially yep amazing in real time essentially yep amazing thank you so much sir for all your thank you so much sir for all your thank you so much sir for all your support of microconf and uh support of microconf and uh support of microconf and uh for coming on the show today it's been for coming on the show today it's been for coming on the show today it's been great having you thanks rob have a good great having you thanks rob have a good great having you thanks rob have a good one one one this is a 2017 volvo xc90 this is a 2017 volvo xc90 this is a 2017 volvo xc90 the xc90 is a midsize luxury suv the xc90 is a midsize luxury suv the xc90 is a midsize luxury suv manufactured and marketed by volvo cars manufactured and marketed by volvo cars manufactured and marketed by volvo cars since 2002 since 2002 since 2002 and now in its second generation both and now in its second generation both and now in its second generation both generations of the xc90 have won motor generations of the xc90 have won motor generations of the xc90 have won motor trends suv of the year award in their trends suv of the year award in their trends suv of the year award in their debuts debuts debuts this particular vehicle is rarely washed this particular vehicle is rarely washed this particular vehicle is rarely washed and comes fully loaded with cups and comes fully loaded with cups and comes fully loaded with cups books papers and other items long since books papers and other items long since books papers and other items long since abandoned by my children abandoned by my children abandoned by my children the xc90 has three rows of seats perfect the xc90 has three rows of seats perfect the xc90 has three rows of seats perfect for carrying a lot of gear for carrying a lot of gear for carrying a lot of gear a lot of kids or both the tachometer a lot of kids or both the tachometer a lot of kids or both the tachometer goes to 8000 rpm and the in-dash goes to 8000 rpm and the in-dash goes to 8000 rpm and the in-dash computer never fails to play the best computer never fails to play the best computer never fails to play the best crunch tunes of the 90s crunch tunes of the 90s crunch tunes of the 90s welcome to our remote edition of welcome to our remote edition of welcome to our remote edition of microcomp remote microcomp remote microcomp remote we're not live on set but we're actually we're not live on set but we're actually we're not live on set but we're actually driving around it's startup founders and driving around it's startup founders and driving around it's startup founders and cars getting coffee cars getting coffee cars getting coffee we're truly remote am i going to get we're truly remote am i going to get we're truly remote am i going to get coffee out of this no it was just an coffee out of this no it was just an coffee out of this no it was just an expression expression expression such false advertising i thought you such false advertising i thought you such false advertising i thought you were actually just inviting me for were actually just inviting me for were actually just inviting me for coffee coffee coffee so i rented this maserati here this is so i rented this maserati here this is so i rented this maserati here this is your volvo your volvo your volvo so we could drive around paris yeah no

so we could drive around paris yeah no so we could drive around paris yeah no this is great thanks so much for for this is great thanks so much for for this is great thanks so much for for joining me for a few minutes to joining me for a few minutes to joining me for a few minutes to chat about founder origin stories can i chat about founder origin stories can i chat about founder origin stories can i get like a rain check on the coffee get like a rain check on the coffee get like a rain check on the coffee rain check on the coffee rain check on rain check on the coffee rain check on rain check on the coffee rain check on driving around paris in a maserati driving around paris in a maserati driving around paris in a maserati you've made big promises this is amazing you've made big promises this is amazing you've made big promises this is amazing and the entire microcomp community now and the entire microcomp community now and the entire microcomp community now has my back on this i hope can we add an has my back on this i hope can we add an has my back on this i hope can we add an editor can we cut that part out editor can we cut that part out editor can we cut that part out so this is my lovely wife dr sherry so this is my lovely wife dr sherry so this is my lovely wife dr sherry walling walling walling and she is the founder of zen founder and she is the founder of zen founder and she is the founder of zen founder she's host of she's host of she's host of the zen founder podcast and the zen founder podcast and the zen founder podcast and she and i co-founded our family and she and i co-founded our family and she and i co-founded our family and co-wrote a book called the co-wrote a book called the co-wrote a book called the entrepreneur's guide entrepreneur's guide entrepreneur's guide to keeping your together and what to keeping your together and what to keeping your together and what we're going to talk about today is we're going to talk about today is we're going to talk about today is actually actually actually a piece about founder origin stories a piece about founder origin stories a piece about founder origin stories that made it into it really is the that made it into it really is the that made it into it really is the second second second chapter of the book understanding where chapter of the book understanding where chapter of the book understanding where you come from you come from you come from to optimize where you're going and i to optimize where you're going and i to optimize where you're going and i think to set the stage think to set the stage think to set the stage um you know as a clinical psychologist um you know as a clinical psychologist um you know as a clinical psychologist someone who someone who someone who who works with founders high performing who works with founders high performing who works with founders high performing executives ceos executives ceos executives ceos how does someone's story or their origin how does someone's story or their origin how does someone's story or their origin impact how they operate day to day and impact how they operate day to day and impact how they operate day to day and how they run companies how they run companies how they run companies and and i think the real question is and and i think the real question is and and i think the real question is like why should a founder listening to like why should a founder listening to like why should a founder listening to this care this care this care about how they were brought up about how about how they were brought up about how about how they were brought up about how they were raised about their family they were raised about their family they were raised about their family system system system yeah i have a lot of conversations about yeah i have a lot of conversations about yeah i have a lot of conversations about this actually and i think this actually and i think this actually and i think because most of us who are entrepreneurs because most of us who are entrepreneurs because most of us who are entrepreneurs are so are so are so um either future oriented or very um either future oriented or very um either future oriented or very present oriented we kind of live in the present oriented we kind of live in the present oriented we kind of live in the moment we're planning for the future moment we're planning for the future moment we're planning for the future we're we're we're building something working towards building something working towards building something working towards something it can be easy for us to something it can be easy for us to something it can be easy for us to overlook the importance of reflecting

overlook the importance of reflecting overlook the importance of reflecting back on our past back on our past back on our past but a lot of the science that's coming but a lot of the science that's coming but a lot of the science that's coming out really in the last 10 or 15 years out really in the last 10 or 15 years out really in the last 10 or 15 years really speaks to the importance of really speaks to the importance of really speaks to the importance of understanding how your early life understanding how your early life understanding how your early life narrative might shape narrative might shape narrative might shape things as simple as your relationships things as simple as your relationships things as simple as your relationships your capacity for trust your capacity for trust your capacity for trust or even the way that your body responds or even the way that your body responds or even the way that your body responds to stress to stress to stress the adverse childhood experiences study the adverse childhood experiences study the adverse childhood experiences study is was a really really large sales is was a really really large sales is was a really really large sales scale study conducted in the us that scale study conducted in the us that scale study conducted in the us that looked at like health data for something looked at like health data for something looked at like health data for something like 17 000 people like 17 000 people like 17 000 people and found really really strong and found really really strong and found really really strong relationships between early life relationships between early life relationships between early life adversity and things like adversity and things like adversity and things like depression suicidality things that you depression suicidality things that you depression suicidality things that you would expect but also things like heart would expect but also things like heart would expect but also things like heart disease disease disease um number of times and types of cancer um number of times and types of cancer um number of times and types of cancer diabetes obesity things like that so i diabetes obesity things like that so i diabetes obesity things like that so i guess guess guess maybe a long-winded way of saying it is maybe a long-winded way of saying it is maybe a long-winded way of saying it is that your past matters a tremendous that your past matters a tremendous that your past matters a tremendous amount to amount to amount to your relationship to your body and to your relationship to your body and to your relationship to your body and to the way that you solve problems the way the way that you solve problems the way the way that you solve problems the way that you manage stress the way that you that you manage stress the way that you that you manage stress the way that you really really really respond to the life that you're living respond to the life that you're living respond to the life that you're living right now yeah and i think that holds right now yeah and i think that holds right now yeah and i think that holds certainly holds true for me certainly holds true for me certainly holds true for me i know that the way i was brought up in i know that the way i was brought up in i know that the way i was brought up in the way that i was taught to deal with the way that i was taught to deal with the way that i was taught to deal with conflict or adversity or conflict or adversity or conflict or adversity or manage anger or all that is or anxiety manage anger or all that is or anxiety manage anger or all that is or anxiety is something that i have to manage on a is something that i have to manage on a is something that i have to manage on a day-to-day basis right as a founder day-to-day basis right as a founder day-to-day basis right as a founder yeah and it's even it's even more maybe yeah and it's even it's even more maybe yeah and it's even it's even more maybe nuanced than what you were taught or nuanced than what you were taught or nuanced than what you were taught or what you observed it's really what got what you observed it's really what got what you observed it's really what got encoded into your body encoded into your body encoded into your body and the way that your dna responded to and the way that your dna responded to and the way that your dna responded to the kinds of environment the kinds of environment the kinds of environment that you were exposed to as a kiddo that you were exposed to as a kiddo that you were exposed to as a kiddo right and so right and so right and so as part of zenfat the zen founder as part of zenfat the zen founder as part of zenfat the zen founder podcast which is what on episode

podcast which is what on episode podcast which is what on episode is it 250 or something at this point is it 250 or something at this point is it 250 or something at this point like yeah more than that like yeah more than that like yeah more than that 254 255 something like that you know 254 255 something like that you know 254 255 something like that you know you did a series of interviews for that you did a series of interviews for that you did a series of interviews for that where where where you talked to actually multiple rounds you talked to actually multiple rounds you talked to actually multiple rounds of interviews over the of interviews over the of interviews over the course of a couple years it was kind of course of a couple years it was kind of course of a couple years it was kind of my summer project yeah so over the my summer project yeah so over the my summer project yeah so over the course of the year we would course of the year we would course of the year we would put out new episodes during the year and put out new episodes during the year and put out new episodes during the year and then over the summer i would sort of do then over the summer i would sort of do then over the summer i would sort of do a bunch of interviews at once and then a bunch of interviews at once and then a bunch of interviews at once and then have them ready to have them ready to have them ready to release throughout the summer that they release throughout the summer that they release throughout the summer that they were all founder origin stories so i were all founder origin stories so i were all founder origin stories so i did a really deep dive into lots of did a really deep dive into lots of did a really deep dive into lots of microcomp speakers actually microcomp speakers actually microcomp speakers actually sally fd patrick mckenzie jason cohen sally fd patrick mckenzie jason cohen sally fd patrick mckenzie jason cohen lots of folks that we know well in the lots of folks that we know well in the lots of folks that we know well in the community community community and um shaw reuben yeah yeah and um shaw reuben yeah yeah and um shaw reuben yeah yeah yeah they became really interesting yeah they became really interesting yeah they became really interesting conversations to just say hey tell me conversations to just say hey tell me conversations to just say hey tell me how you grew up like what were your how you grew up like what were your how you grew up like what were your first experiences of entrepreneurship first experiences of entrepreneurship first experiences of entrepreneurship what shaped you and what made it hard what shaped you and what made it hard what shaped you and what made it hard for you to get to where you are now for you to get to where you are now for you to get to where you are now yeah and and as part of that you pulled yeah and and as part of that you pulled yeah and and as part of that you pulled out out out four patterns or four kind of four patterns or four kind of four patterns or four kind of commonalities that a lot of the founders commonalities that a lot of the founders commonalities that a lot of the founders shared these ambitious shared these ambitious shared these ambitious high achieving founders who had achieved high achieving founders who had achieved high achieving founders who had achieved success and i'd love to run through success and i'd love to run through success and i'd love to run through those now those now those now and in addition i think one of the and in addition i think one of the and in addition i think one of the perhaps even the more interesting part perhaps even the more interesting part perhaps even the more interesting part is you then pulled out these four is you then pulled out these four is you then pulled out these four archetypes these founder archetypes archetypes these founder archetypes archetypes these founder archetypes um or would you call them founder um or would you call them founder um or would you call them founder archetypes sure yeah and it's archetypes sure yeah and it's archetypes sure yeah and it's it's they're pretty cool like to tease it's they're pretty cool like to tease it's they're pretty cool like to tease them it's like the golden child the them it's like the golden child the them it's like the golden child the loner the pleaser the survivor loner the pleaser the survivor loner the pleaser the survivor and so i'd love to dig into those in and so i'd love to dig into those in and so i'd love to dig into those in just a second because just a second because just a second because you have some kind of risks or like pros you have some kind of risks or like pros you have some kind of risks or like pros and cons and how to if you fi if you and cons and how to if you fi if you and cons and how to if you fi if you find that you resonate with this like find that you resonate with this like find that you resonate with this like this is probably how you operate

this is probably how you operate this is probably how you operate and and ways to kind of optimize you and and ways to kind of optimize you and and ways to kind of optimize you know who you are and how to know who you are and how to know who you are and how to how to get the most out of things right how to get the most out of things right how to get the most out of things right yeah i think one of the things that i yeah i think one of the things that i yeah i think one of the things that i really wanted to drive home really wanted to drive home really wanted to drive home in the course of doing these interviews in the course of doing these interviews in the course of doing these interviews and i didn't have to make the point the and i didn't have to make the point the and i didn't have to make the point the interviews made the point themselves is interviews made the point themselves is interviews made the point themselves is there are lots of there are lots of there are lots of ways to become an entrepreneur it's not ways to become an entrepreneur it's not ways to become an entrepreneur it's not like you have to have a certain kind of like you have to have a certain kind of like you have to have a certain kind of background or a certain type of life background or a certain type of life background or a certain type of life experience that makes you successful or experience that makes you successful or experience that makes you successful or not successful not successful not successful and so by by looking at the interviews and so by by looking at the interviews and so by by looking at the interviews um kind of thematically and pulling out um kind of thematically and pulling out um kind of thematically and pulling out different archetypes it different archetypes it different archetypes it i think it really helped me to see how i think it really helped me to see how i think it really helped me to see how people can be successful and then also people can be successful and then also people can be successful and then also have have have you know have shadow sides or have risk you know have shadow sides or have risk you know have shadow sides or have risk factors have downsides to really factors have downsides to really factors have downsides to really whatever kind of upbringing they whatever kind of upbringing they whatever kind of upbringing they experienced experienced experienced cool so what were the before we get into cool so what were the before we get into cool so what were the before we get into the architects what were those four the architects what were those four the architects what were those four um patterns or commonalities that you um patterns or commonalities that you um patterns or commonalities that you found across a lot of the found across a lot of the found across a lot of the successful founders that you interviewed successful founders that you interviewed successful founders that you interviewed for this founder origin series yeah i for this founder origin series yeah i for this founder origin series yeah i found found found that um of the folks that i interviewed that um of the folks that i interviewed that um of the folks that i interviewed almost all of them almost all of them almost all of them had some kind of early life adversity had some kind of early life adversity had some kind of early life adversity um the death of a parent a big um the death of a parent a big um the death of a parent a big transition a big move maybe right when transition a big move maybe right when transition a big move maybe right when they're going into junior high some they're going into junior high some they're going into junior high some really big shift really big shift really big shift a parent with cancer um the loss of a a parent with cancer um the loss of a a parent with cancer um the loss of a sibling sibling sibling you know mental illness mental illness a you know mental illness mental illness a you know mental illness mental illness a parent with substance abuse parent with substance abuse parent with substance abuse so these are the things that might show so these are the things that might show so these are the things that might show up in that adverse childhood experiences up in that adverse childhood experiences up in that adverse childhood experiences study that i mentioned earlier study that i mentioned earlier study that i mentioned earlier things that really disrupt the things that really disrupt the things that really disrupt the trajectory of your childhood but in the trajectory of your childhood but in the trajectory of your childhood but in the case of these founders case of these founders case of these founders the key thing that we know really from the key thing that we know really from the key thing that we know really from the field of the field of the field of psychological research which really bore psychological research which really bore psychological research which really bore out in my conversations with out in my conversations with out in my conversations with entrepreneurs

entrepreneurs entrepreneurs is that that high adversity was is that that high adversity was is that that high adversity was accompanied by a high level of support accompanied by a high level of support accompanied by a high level of support so there was someone in that kid's life so there was someone in that kid's life so there was someone in that kid's life who who who maybe it was a teacher maybe it was a maybe it was a teacher maybe it was a maybe it was a teacher maybe it was a parent an uncle an parent an uncle an parent an uncle an aunt someone who saw something and just aunt someone who saw something and just aunt someone who saw something and just encouraged and supported and helped make encouraged and supported and helped make encouraged and supported and helped make kind of a safe place for that young kind of a safe place for that young kind of a safe place for that young person to continue to develop person to continue to develop person to continue to develop so high adversity you know we tend to be so high adversity you know we tend to be so high adversity you know we tend to be okay we can tend to be resilient if we okay we can tend to be resilient if we okay we can tend to be resilient if we have have have a helpful supportive adult around so a helpful supportive adult around so a helpful supportive adult around so that's what i found in a lot of the that's what i found in a lot of the that's what i found in a lot of the interviews was that trend interviews was that trend interviews was that trend um so high adversity but high support um so high adversity but high support um so high adversity but high support right that combination right that combination right that combination had to exist together and i definitely had to exist together and i definitely had to exist together and i definitely found found found totally true to the entrepreneurial totally true to the entrepreneurial totally true to the entrepreneurial story is that people just had an story is that people just had an story is that people just had an inherent need to blaze a trail inherent need to blaze a trail inherent need to blaze a trail like these were kids who these founders like these were kids who these founders like these were kids who these founders were children who weren't necessarily were children who weren't necessarily were children who weren't necessarily super content to just super content to just super content to just roll with the rules as they were roll with the rules as they were roll with the rules as they were presented to them they were people who presented to them they were people who presented to them they were people who were were were either trying to break the rules in either trying to break the rules in either trying to break the rules in sometimes like a pretty sometimes like a pretty sometimes like a pretty problematic way um you know dan martel problematic way um you know dan martel problematic way um you know dan martel tells some stories about breaking rules tells some stories about breaking rules tells some stories about breaking rules that got him in big trouble that got him in big trouble that got him in big trouble um but they were just people who weren't um but they were just people who weren't um but they were just people who weren't super content with the status quo and super content with the status quo and super content with the status quo and wanted to wanted to wanted to you know go off trail a little bit yeah you know go off trail a little bit yeah you know go off trail a little bit yeah and that and that and that pattern persisted even once or really pattern persisted even once or really pattern persisted even once or really began when they were young children began when they were young children began when they were young children the third is that these were folks who the third is that these were folks who the third is that these were folks who were self-taught were self-taught were self-taught and self-led like patrick mckenzie i and self-led like patrick mckenzie i and self-led like patrick mckenzie i love the story about him love the story about him love the story about him he really was interested in coding he

he really was interested in coding he he really was interested in coding he loved video games he wanted to write loved video games he wanted to write loved video games he wanted to write video games and make video games video games and make video games video games and make video games but he didn't have a computer so but he didn't have a computer so but he didn't have a computer so he went to the library and checked out he went to the library and checked out he went to the library and checked out library books about coding and started library books about coding and started library books about coding and started writing out code by hand writing out code by hand writing out code by hand so he learned to code from books and so he learned to code from books and so he learned to code from books and then would just do the mental exercise then would just do the mental exercise then would just do the mental exercise of coding of compiling i'm writing it of coding of compiling i'm writing it of coding of compiling i'm writing it despite longhand right despite longhand right despite longhand right so that's that's a unique trade and so that's that's a unique trade and so that's that's a unique trade and that's kind of the entrepreneurial that's kind of the entrepreneurial that's kind of the entrepreneurial secret sauce is somebody who can get secret sauce is somebody who can get secret sauce is somebody who can get themselves going is self-motivated and themselves going is self-motivated and themselves going is self-motivated and is going to teach themselves is going to teach themselves is going to teach themselves yeah i actually did that as well yeah i actually did that as well yeah i actually did that as well although i had a computer but when my although i had a computer but when my although i had a computer but when my brother was coding brother was coding brother was coding i would write it out on binder paper i i would write it out on binder paper i i would write it out on binder paper i know it's it's like when it's my turn know it's it's like when it's my turn know it's it's like when it's my turn what's my turn what's my turn what's my turn time sharing you know when i didn't know time sharing you know when i didn't know time sharing you know when i didn't know what that meant so that was the third what that meant so that was the third what that meant so that was the third what's the fourth what's the fourth what's the fourth the last one in this one oh man was so the last one in this one oh man was so the last one in this one oh man was so important for me to reflect on as a important for me to reflect on as a important for me to reflect on as a parent parent parent um the last one is time all of the um the last one is time all of the um the last one is time all of the entrepreneurs that i talked to or entrepreneurs that i talked to or entrepreneurs that i talked to or the vast majority of them had extended the vast majority of them had extended the vast majority of them had extended periods of time periods of time periods of time to tinker um so one to tinker um so one to tinker um so one my favorite example of this is heath and my favorite example of this is heath and my favorite example of this is heath and shaw his dad would take him shaw his dad would take him shaw his dad would take him out as a physician he'd take him to the out as a physician he'd take him to the out as a physician he'd take him to the hospital in the evenings hospital in the evenings hospital in the evenings when he was doing paperwork or whatever when he was doing paperwork or whatever when he was doing paperwork or whatever and he'd basically and he'd basically and he'd basically had him a screwdriver and let him loose had him a screwdriver and let him loose had him a screwdriver and let him loose in the in the in the in the like it room like with all of the in the like it room like with all of the in the like it room like with all of the machines and just be like hey machines and just be like hey machines and just be like hey entertain yourself essentially so entertain yourself essentially so entertain yourself essentially so heathen had all of this time to just heathen had all of this time to just heathen had all of this time to just i mean frankly like probably take apart i mean frankly like probably take apart i mean frankly like probably take apart computers and look at circuits and computers and look at circuits and computers and look at circuits and just problem solve and and i think the

just problem solve and and i think the just problem solve and and i think the thing thing thing that um you know is so dangerous for us that um you know is so dangerous for us that um you know is so dangerous for us maybe in our era of parenting is that a maybe in our era of parenting is that a maybe in our era of parenting is that a lot of kids that i know are really lot of kids that i know are really lot of kids that i know are really really structured their days are really really structured their days are really really structured their days are really full full full and they don't have this expansive time and they don't have this expansive time and they don't have this expansive time to just kind of mess around in the to just kind of mess around in the to just kind of mess around in the basement and tinker basement and tinker basement and tinker and write code by hand or or listen to and write code by hand or or listen to and write code by hand or or listen to their own imaginations their own imaginations their own imaginations so i thought that was a really important so i thought that was a really important so i thought that was a really important take home about that take home about that take home about that that road to entrepreneurship involves that road to entrepreneurship involves that road to entrepreneurship involves time to just sort of mess around in time to just sort of mess around in time to just sort of mess around in anchor anchor anchor the first is the golden child second is the first is the golden child second is the first is the golden child second is the loner and then there's the pleaser the loner and then there's the pleaser the loner and then there's the pleaser and the survivor and the survivor and the survivor you want to maybe talk through the the you want to maybe talk through the the you want to maybe talk through the the golden child being mindful of time as golden child being mindful of time as golden child being mindful of time as our time is our time is our time is is running short but talk through that is running short but talk through that is running short but talk through that and like i don't know what you have and like i don't know what you have and like i don't know what you have advantages disadvantages things to watch advantages disadvantages things to watch advantages disadvantages things to watch out for whatever it is you want to add out for whatever it is you want to add out for whatever it is you want to add context to just what you know what the context to just what you know what the context to just what you know what the golden child kind of archetype is golden child kind of archetype is golden child kind of archetype is yeah so archetypes take a little bit yeah so archetypes take a little bit yeah so archetypes take a little bit more time to explain but i'll do my best more time to explain but i'll do my best more time to explain but i'll do my best um so as you're hearing this realize um so as you're hearing this realize um so as you're hearing this realize you're hearing this very sort of you're hearing this very sort of you're hearing this very sort of redacted version of this so forgive me redacted version of this so forgive me redacted version of this so forgive me if it feels over general there's a full if it feels over general there's a full if it feels over general there's a full book chapter too it's like four dollars book chapter too it's like four dollars book chapter too it's like four dollars on kindle the entrepreneur's guide to on kindle the entrepreneur's guide to on kindle the entrepreneur's guide to keeping your together chapter two keeping your together chapter two keeping your together chapter two is basically the expanded version of is basically the expanded version of is basically the expanded version of this if you want to dig in deeper this if you want to dig in deeper this if you want to dig in deeper so um in the course of these interviews so um in the course of these interviews so um in the course of these interviews i i i realize that a lot of people come to realize that a lot of people come to realize that a lot of people come to entrepreneurship and in different ways entrepreneurship and in different ways entrepreneurship and in different ways so one way is is this sort of golden so one way is is this sort of golden so one way is is this sort of golden child upbringing experience and this child upbringing experience and this child upbringing experience and this is like probably what all of us strive is like probably what all of us strive is like probably what all of us strive to provide our kids as parents to provide our kids as parents to provide our kids as parents lots of support lots of stability lots of support lots of stability lots of support lots of stability lots of um capacity to go deep lots of um capacity to go deep lots of um capacity to go deep in your own interests like these are the in your own interests like these are the in your own interests like these are the parents that are out on the soccer field parents that are out on the soccer field parents that are out on the soccer field like just cheering you on

like just cheering you on like just cheering you on bringing the snacks like all invested in bringing the snacks like all invested in bringing the snacks like all invested in you and i think you and i think you and i think um this again highly supportive very um this again highly supportive very um this again highly supportive very enthusiastic lots of resources enthusiastic lots of resources enthusiastic lots of resources and this is great for people in their and this is great for people in their and this is great for people in their entrepreneurial journey because they entrepreneurial journey because they entrepreneurial journey because they really i think develop this deep sense really i think develop this deep sense really i think develop this deep sense of confidence of confidence of confidence this deep sense that what they think how this deep sense that what they think how this deep sense that what they think how they see the world that that matters they see the world that that matters they see the world that that matters and that it's something that's worth and that it's something that's worth and that it's something that's worth sharing or that people will generally be sharing or that people will generally be sharing or that people will generally be responsive to when they share it responsive to when they share it responsive to when they share it so that's one of the best um you know so that's one of the best um you know so that's one of the best um you know aspects aspects aspects if you're going into this sort of life if you're going into this sort of life if you're going into this sort of life of entrepreneurship which can be pretty of entrepreneurship which can be pretty of entrepreneurship which can be pretty hard hard hard is that you know you have this great is that you know you have this great is that you know you have this great foundation of support and belief foundation of support and belief foundation of support and belief in yourself um the downside of this is in yourself um the downside of this is in yourself um the downside of this is that sometimes people just have very that sometimes people just have very that sometimes people just have very limited experience with failure limited experience with failure limited experience with failure i mean you think of the the it kid the i mean you think of the the it kid the i mean you think of the the it kid the student council president student council president student council president or the high school quarterback or the or the high school quarterback or the or the high school quarterback or the head of the cheerleading squad head of the cheerleading squad head of the cheerleading squad these are these are kids who really have these are these are kids who really have these are these are kids who really have a lot of support maybe a lot of coddling a lot of support maybe a lot of coddling a lot of support maybe a lot of coddling even and they just haven't had to fight even and they just haven't had to fight even and they just haven't had to fight super hard which can be a downside when super hard which can be a downside when super hard which can be a downside when you're an entrepreneur and you you know you're an entrepreneur and you you know you're an entrepreneur and you you know you have you have you have you have things that don't work well you have things that don't work well you have things that don't work well that you have to sort through that you have to sort through that you have to sort through all right how about second that is the all right how about second that is the all right how about second that is the loner loner loner yeah the loner is you know is maybe the yeah the loner is you know is maybe the yeah the loner is you know is maybe the kid who's in the library handwriting kid who's in the library handwriting kid who's in the library handwriting code code code this is someone whose way of seeing the this is someone whose way of seeing the this is someone whose way of seeing the world or their interests world or their interests world or their interests didn't necessarily align with an obvious didn't necessarily align with an obvious didn't necessarily align with an obvious peer group peer group peer group maybe when they're teenagers and so much maybe when they're teenagers and so much maybe when they're teenagers and so much of the development of who they became of the development of who they became of the development of who they became and what they cared about and what they cared about and what they cared about happened within their own you know their happened within their own you know their happened within their own you know their own autonomous time own autonomous time own autonomous time okay there's someone in the middle of

okay there's someone in the middle of okay there's someone in the middle of the road taking a picture of a baldy the road taking a picture of a baldy the road taking a picture of a baldy eagle in a tree eagle in a tree eagle in a tree so that's that's minnesota moment for so that's that's minnesota moment for so that's that's minnesota moment for you right now so if the camera catches you right now so if the camera catches you right now so if the camera catches it there is a bald eagle it there is a bald eagle it there is a bald eagle yeah okay so the loner i mean in some yeah okay so the loner i mean in some yeah okay so the loner i mean in some ways this is a great advantage because ways this is a great advantage because ways this is a great advantage because you're used to hearing your own voice you're used to hearing your own voice you're used to hearing your own voice you're used to cultivating your own you're used to cultivating your own you're used to cultivating your own ideas ideas ideas you spend a lot of time in your own head you spend a lot of time in your own head you spend a lot of time in your own head in a way that i think can really yield a in a way that i think can really yield a in a way that i think can really yield a lot of ingenuity lot of ingenuity lot of ingenuity and again a sense of confidence and a and again a sense of confidence and a and again a sense of confidence and a way of just knowing yourself way of just knowing yourself way of just knowing yourself well and trusting your own creative well and trusting your own creative well and trusting your own creative process but of course this is a downside process but of course this is a downside process but of course this is a downside because as much as we because as much as we because as much as we like to think that we can be successful like to think that we can be successful like to think that we can be successful in a vacuum in a vacuum in a vacuum networking and our relationships and our networking and our relationships and our networking and our relationships and our connections connections connections are incredibly important no matter what are incredibly important no matter what are incredibly important no matter what we're doing as entrepreneurs we're doing as entrepreneurs we're doing as entrepreneurs so the downside potentially of the loner so the downside potentially of the loner so the downside potentially of the loner is that is that is that those early life skills in terms of how those early life skills in terms of how those early life skills in terms of how to really connect with to really connect with to really connect with other people how to really build a other people how to really build a other people how to really build a network and as that's a network and as that's a network and as that's a sort of a bunch of different sort of a bunch of different sort of a bunch of different relationships may not be as intact or as relationships may not be as intact or as relationships may not be as intact or as well practiced well practiced well practiced it could be helpful and this is the one it could be helpful and this is the one it could be helpful and this is the one that resonates the most with me with my that resonates the most with me with my that resonates the most with me with my upbringing because we lived out in the upbringing because we lived out in the upbringing because we lived out in the middle of nowhere middle of nowhere middle of nowhere we had books and computers and with no we had books and computers and with no we had books and computers and with no internet because it was the 80s when i internet because it was the 80s when i internet because it was the 80s when i was growing up and was growing up and was growing up and um i thought that my whole deal when i um i thought that my whole deal when i um i thought that my whole deal when i first started doing software right doing first started doing software right doing first started doing software right doing products was like products was like products was like i'm going to do it all i don't have to i'm going to do it all i don't have to i'm going to do it all i don't have to answer to anyone micro answer to anyone micro answer to anyone micro solo it was all about being a software solo it was all about being a software solo it was all about being a software no network i didn't build that and then no network i didn't build that and then no network i didn't build that and then eventually areas i realized oh i was eventually areas i realized oh i was eventually areas i realized oh i was just never taught that skill and i just never taught that skill and i just never taught that skill and i have learned that over the past 15 years have learned that over the past 15 years have learned that over the past 15 years but it was it was a detriment to me at

but it was it was a detriment to me at but it was it was a detriment to me at the start the start the start sure how about the third yeah the third sure how about the third yeah the third sure how about the third yeah the third um i call the pleaser and this is um um i call the pleaser and this is um um i call the pleaser and this is um this is the kiddo who's growing up in a this is the kiddo who's growing up in a this is the kiddo who's growing up in a context where maybe they have a pretty context where maybe they have a pretty context where maybe they have a pretty hard driving parent hard driving parent hard driving parent a parent that wants them you know to be a parent that wants them you know to be a parent that wants them you know to be that high school star athlete but that high school star athlete but that high school star athlete but they're really more of a chess playing they're really more of a chess playing they're really more of a chess playing kind of kid this is where you know you kind of kid this is where you know you kind of kid this is where you know you think of like the person who's think of like the person who's think of like the person who's kind of trying to overcompensate for kind of trying to overcompensate for kind of trying to overcompensate for that parent who pushed them really hard that parent who pushed them really hard that parent who pushed them really hard who maybe they felt like they were just who maybe they felt like they were just who maybe they felt like they were just never successful enough never successful enough never successful enough and i think this is in some ways it's a and i think this is in some ways it's a and i think this is in some ways it's a tough upbringing but in some ways it tough upbringing but in some ways it tough upbringing but in some ways it really helps you develop these skills of really helps you develop these skills of really helps you develop these skills of learning to learning to learning to read what people need like this is a read what people need like this is a read what people need like this is a great customer skill right you're great customer skill right you're great customer skill right you're learning what your customers need and learning what your customers need and learning what your customers need and how to respond how to respond how to respond in ways that um really fit their needs in ways that um really fit their needs in ways that um really fit their needs this is the kind of entrepreneur who this is the kind of entrepreneur who this is the kind of entrepreneur who will over deliver will over deliver will over deliver who's somebody who really um kind of who's somebody who really um kind of who's somebody who really um kind of understands understands understands the emotional context of what people the emotional context of what people the emotional context of what people will pay for and what they want and what will pay for and what they want and what will pay for and what they want and what they need they need they need um but this is not necessarily someone um but this is not necessarily someone um but this is not necessarily someone who is able to set who is able to set who is able to set good boundaries for themselves for their good boundaries for themselves for their good boundaries for themselves for their family or for their business this might family or for their business this might family or for their business this might be the person who's be the person who's be the person who's always like yes yes yes but that drives always like yes yes yes but that drives always like yes yes yes but that drives themselves into the ground themselves into the ground themselves into the ground because they're not actually thinking because they're not actually thinking because they're not actually thinking about what's most important for them about what's most important for them about what's most important for them or for the growth and well-being of or for the growth and well-being of or for the growth and well-being of their business they're other oriented their business they're other oriented their business they're other oriented in a way that's both helpful and in a way that's both helpful and in a way that's both helpful and problematic the survivor problematic the survivor problematic the survivor is the last archetype that i came across is the last archetype that i came across is the last archetype that i came across and and and this is the kiddo who really dealt with this is the kiddo who really dealt with this is the kiddo who really dealt with a lot of a lot of a lot of maybe aggression violence instability maybe aggression violence instability maybe aggression violence instability chaos chaos chaos in their early life experience and this

in their early life experience and this in their early life experience and this is somebody who is somebody who is somebody who has potentially lots of street smarts has potentially lots of street smarts has potentially lots of street smarts who really knows how to who really knows how to who really knows how to get what they need and provide for get what they need and provide for get what they need and provide for themselves even in really really themselves even in really really themselves even in really really sort of difficult situations um so great sort of difficult situations um so great sort of difficult situations um so great entrepreneurial skill and like this is entrepreneurial skill and like this is entrepreneurial skill and like this is the person who doesn't get up give up the person who doesn't get up give up the person who doesn't get up give up rather this is they don't give up rather this is they don't give up rather this is they don't give up they're a fighter they're a strong they're a fighter they're a strong they're a fighter they're a strong strong sort of mental game strong sort of mental game strong sort of mental game um but this can be problematic um but this can be problematic um but this can be problematic in the sense that um this kind of in the sense that um this kind of in the sense that um this kind of upgrading tends to upgrading tends to upgrading tends to either lead to a path where people are either lead to a path where people are either lead to a path where people are pretty shut down emotionally like pretty shut down emotionally like pretty shut down emotionally like they're just kind of machines they're just kind of machines they're just kind of machines or they're pretty reactive emotionally or they're pretty reactive emotionally or they're pretty reactive emotionally they may they may they may experience a lot of anger or not experience a lot of anger or not experience a lot of anger or not necessarily have necessarily have necessarily have had calming experiences that help their had calming experiences that help their had calming experiences that help their body body body regulate well when they're under a lot regulate well when they're under a lot regulate well when they're under a lot of stress of stress of stress or distress so again really hard driving or distress so again really hard driving or distress so again really hard driving forceful powerful forceful powerful forceful powerful but maybe not always know how to wield but maybe not always know how to wield but maybe not always know how to wield that power in that power in that power in helpful positive productive ways uh the helpful positive productive ways uh the helpful positive productive ways uh the bottom line is that no matter what bottom line is that no matter what bottom line is that no matter what upbringing you have um there are upbringing you have um there are upbringing you have um there are strengths and there are liabilities strengths and there are liabilities strengths and there are liabilities in that so it's worth the time to just in that so it's worth the time to just in that so it's worth the time to just do a little bit of do a little bit of do a little bit of exploration around what you're coming to exploration around what you're coming to exploration around what you're coming to this point in your life with what are this point in your life with what are this point in your life with what are the lessons that the lessons that the lessons that your upbringing taught you what are the your upbringing taught you what are the your upbringing taught you what are the things that it maybe didn't teach you so things that it maybe didn't teach you so things that it maybe didn't teach you so well that you might need to supplement well that you might need to supplement well that you might need to supplement um and i give some more we give some um and i give some more we give some um and i give some more we give some more tips and tricks more tips and tricks more tips and tricks and strategies in the book if you're

and strategies in the book if you're and strategies in the book if you're needing to needing to needing to just fill out your early life experience just fill out your early life experience just fill out your early life experience with some counter balance and growth with some counter balance and growth with some counter balance and growth yeah i mean one of the biggest pivot yeah i mean one of the biggest pivot yeah i mean one of the biggest pivot points or changing points for me points or changing points for me points or changing points for me as an entrepreneur or when i started as an entrepreneur or when i started as an entrepreneur or when i started realizing my weaknesses and really honed realizing my weaknesses and really honed realizing my weaknesses and really honed in on on in on on in on on my upbringing but it was both my my upbringing but it was both my my upbringing but it was both my strengths and my weaknesses and how i strengths and my weaknesses and how i strengths and my weaknesses and how i handle stress and how i handle handle stress and how i handle handle stress and how i handle certain situations that was a big point certain situations that was a big point certain situations that was a big point of growth again of growth again of growth again probably about 15 years ago was when probably about 15 years ago was when probably about 15 years ago was when that started you know and really that started you know and really that started you know and really culminated maybe five years ago i'm culminated maybe five years ago i'm culminated maybe five years ago i'm sorry about 10 years ago where i was sorry about 10 years ago where i was sorry about 10 years ago where i was like okay like okay like okay you just finished growing at that point you just finished growing at that point you just finished growing at that point no but i finished i i knew a lot more no but i finished i i knew a lot more no but i finished i i knew a lot more about myself like it was a dramatic about myself like it was a dramatic about myself like it was a dramatic you know increase so thank you i'm you know increase so thank you i'm you know increase so thank you i'm giving you a hard time but i do think giving you a hard time but i do think giving you a hard time but i do think it's helpful to realize that it's helpful to realize that it's helpful to realize that this kind of growth process is ongoing this kind of growth process is ongoing this kind of growth process is ongoing like you do some of the growth you do like you do some of the growth you do like you do some of the growth you do some early childhood stuff and then some early childhood stuff and then some early childhood stuff and then there are times when you have to revisit there are times when you have to revisit there are times when you have to revisit it because your perspective on it it because your perspective on it it because your perspective on it changes as you grow as your kids grow as changes as you grow as your kids grow as changes as you grow as your kids grow as different factors around your change different factors around your change different factors around your change sure sure sure thank you so much dr walling for joining thank you so much dr walling for joining thank you so much dr walling for joining us today us today us today you owe me a coffee oh you a coffee and you owe me a coffee oh you a coffee and you owe me a coffee oh you a coffee and a maserati it sounds and you host the zen founder podcast if and you host the zen founder podcast if folks want to uh folks want to uh folks want to uh to keep up with you all right have a to keep up with you all right have a to keep up with you all right have a great microconf y'all thanks so much for great microconf y'all thanks so much for great microconf y'all thanks so much for joining us joining us joining us founders in cars not getting coffee i founders in cars not getting coffee i founders in cars not getting coffee i enjoyed that enjoyed that enjoyed that if you're interested in the book we kept if you're interested in the book we kept if you're interested in the book we kept mentioning it's called the mentioning it's called the mentioning it's called the entrepreneur's guide to keeping your entrepreneur's guide to keeping your entrepreneur's guide to keeping your together in chapter two of this together in chapter two of this together in chapter two of this book book book is in essence an expanded version of the is in essence an expanded version of the is in essence an expanded version of the conversation that you just heard

howdy i'm rand fishkin co-founder and howdy i'm rand fishkin co-founder and ceo of sparktoro ceo of sparktoro ceo of sparktoro uh previously the founder of moz and uh previously the founder of moz and uh previously the founder of moz and author of lost and founder author of lost and founder author of lost and founder and i want to help you folks at and i want to help you folks at and i want to help you folks at microcomp remote microcomp remote microcomp remote uh with one thing that you can do today uh with one thing that you can do today uh with one thing that you can do today that can potentially have a that can potentially have a that can potentially have a transformative impact on your business transformative impact on your business transformative impact on your business tomorrow and in the future so i'll show tomorrow and in the future so i'll show tomorrow and in the future so i'll show you something that's been working really you something that's been working really you something that's been working really well for us here well for us here well for us here at sparktoro which is uh so we have this at sparktoro which is uh so we have this at sparktoro which is uh so we have this this free tool this free tool this free tool well we have a free version and then a well we have a free version and then a well we have a free version and then a paid version it's a software as a paid version it's a software as a paid version it's a software as a subscription like like probably a lot of subscription like like probably a lot of subscription like like probably a lot of you with at microconf you with at microconf you with at microconf and um one of the things that we do that and um one of the things that we do that and um one of the things that we do that works really well is when someone starts works really well is when someone starts works really well is when someone starts running their free search right so they running their free search right so they running their free search right so they say like oh well my audience say like oh well my audience say like oh well my audience whatever uses these words in their whatever uses these words in their whatever uses these words in their profile uh profile uh profile uh software engineer right and they they software engineer right and they they software engineer right and they they run that first search they're asked run that first search they're asked run that first search they're asked to um sign up and put in their email i'm to um sign up and put in their email i'm to um sign up and put in their email i'm i'm logged into my account but i'm logged into my account but i'm logged into my account but you get the idea they they lo they you get the idea they they lo they you get the idea they they lo they have to create an account with us and have to create an account with us and have to create an account with us and give us their email and give us their email and give us their email and uh that email address uh that email address uh that email address and that registration process means that and that registration process means that and that registration process means that we can shoot them a quick message and i we can shoot them a quick message and i we can shoot them a quick message and i send them a message from my email send them a message from my email send them a message from my email account right rand sparktaro.com like it account right rand sparktaro.com like it account right rand sparktaro.com like it comes from me comes from me comes from me that says can i help you with your that says can i help you with your that says can i help you with your spartoro account and it's just a spartoro account and it's just a spartoro account and it's just a super short uh email message in fact it super short uh email message in fact it super short uh email message in fact it literally says um can i can i help with literally says um can i can i help with literally says um can i can i help with your spark tour account is the title your spark tour account is the title your spark tour account is the title this we found works really well high this we found works really well high this we found works really well high open rate open rate open rate uh and it says you know hi first name

uh and it says you know hi first name uh and it says you know hi first name saw your spector saw your spector saw your spector sign up wanted to offer these sign up wanted to offer these sign up wanted to offer these suggestions for your free searches we suggestions for your free searches we suggestions for your free searches we give people 10 free searches this is my give people 10 free searches this is my give people 10 free searches this is my personal email so if you have questions personal email so if you have questions personal email so if you have questions or a minute to tell me what you'd like or a minute to tell me what you'd like or a minute to tell me what you'd like to accomplish with the tool to accomplish with the tool to accomplish with the tool i'm happy to help that's trent fishkin i'm happy to help that's trent fishkin i'm happy to help that's trent fishkin so it looks and feels like a real email so it looks and feels like a real email so it looks and feels like a real email because it really is because it really is because it really is if they send a reply it comes right to if they send a reply it comes right to if they send a reply it comes right to me i get me i get me i get a dozen two dozen sometimes three dozen a dozen two dozen sometimes three dozen a dozen two dozen sometimes three dozen of these replies of these replies of these replies uh every day it's it's pretty awesome uh every day it's it's pretty awesome uh every day it's it's pretty awesome it's a fantastic way it's a fantastic way it's a fantastic way to connect with the customers and to connect with the customers and to connect with the customers and potential customers potential customers potential customers of our product and people are using it of our product and people are using it of our product and people are using it get a sense for who's struggling get a sense for who's struggling get a sense for who's struggling how what they're trying to do and how what they're trying to do and how what they're trying to do and accomplish i love this when when you're accomplish i love this when when you're accomplish i love this when when you're at a small scale right when you have at a small scale right when you have at a small scale right when you have um a few dozen to a few hundred people um a few dozen to a few hundred people um a few dozen to a few hundred people signing up every month for signing up every month for signing up every month for your product offering something for free your product offering something for free your product offering something for free and then getting in touch with those and then getting in touch with those and then getting in touch with those folks and building those relationships folks and building those relationships folks and building those relationships just incredibly powerful if you can find just incredibly powerful if you can find just incredibly powerful if you can find a way to do this in your software a way to do this in your software a way to do this in your software business business business i think you can really move the needle i think you can really move the needle i think you can really move the needle on getting a deep understanding of on getting a deep understanding of on getting a deep understanding of who your potential buyers are and then who your potential buyers are and then who your potential buyers are and then taking the messaging that works that taking the messaging that works that taking the messaging that works that that's helping people that's helping people that's helping people uh at a at a one-to-one level and uh at a at a one-to-one level and uh at a at a one-to-one level and translating that into what you put translating that into what you put translating that into what you put on pages like you know your homepage on pages like you know your homepage on pages like you know your homepage which we've done with sparktoro right which we've done with sparktoro right which we've done with sparktoro right this instantly discover what your this instantly discover what your this instantly discover what your audience reads watches listens to and audience reads watches listens to and audience reads watches listens to and falls falls falls that comes from those conversations the that comes from those conversations the that comes from those conversations the whole how it works page the the video whole how it works page the the video whole how it works page the the video uh the the graphics and explanation it uh the the graphics and explanation it uh the the graphics and explanation it all comes from these conversations all comes from these conversations all comes from these conversations and i i find that uh incredibly helpful

and i i find that uh incredibly helpful and i i find that uh incredibly helpful so i encourage you to do it with your so i encourage you to do it with your so i encourage you to do it with your software business software business software business as well all right thanks everyone take as well all right thanks everyone take as well all right thanks everyone take care good luck care good luck care good luck um we're gonna dive into our second um we're gonna dive into our second um we're gonna dive into our second keynote of the day keynote of the day keynote of the day and if you recall our first keynote was and if you recall our first keynote was and if you recall our first keynote was from corinne pope and that was on that from corinne pope and that was on that from corinne pope and that was on that first stage of first stage of first stage of getting to launch and having that first getting to launch and having that first getting to launch and having that first sale sale sale the second keynote that we're about to the second keynote that we're about to the second keynote that we're about to roll into talks about the next milestone roll into talks about the next milestone roll into talks about the next milestone that many of you in uh in the crowd are that many of you in uh in the crowd are that many of you in uh in the crowd are trying to achieve trying to achieve trying to achieve it's 10k mrr it's the point at where a it's 10k mrr it's the point at where a it's 10k mrr it's the point at where a lot of us can go full time lot of us can go full time lot of us can go full time we're going to hear from colleen johnson we're going to hear from colleen johnson we're going to hear from colleen johnson she's an enterprise agile coach she's an enterprise agile coach she's an enterprise agile coach a speaker a trainer an entrepreneur a speaker a trainer an entrepreneur a speaker a trainer an entrepreneur she's the co-founder and the ceo she's the co-founder and the ceo she's the co-founder and the ceo of scatterspoke colleen thank you so of scatterspoke colleen thank you so of scatterspoke colleen thank you so much for joining me on microconf remote much for joining me on microconf remote much for joining me on microconf remote today today today thanks for having me here rob excellent thanks for having me here rob excellent thanks for having me here rob excellent i'll let you take it from here from here i'll let you take it from here from here i'll let you take it from here from here all right thank you well i do want to all right thank you well i do want to all right thank you well i do want to disagree with you rob and we can disagree with you rob and we can disagree with you rob and we can settle this in the in the q a but i do settle this in the in the q a but i do settle this in the in the q a but i do think mall rats was probably one of the think mall rats was probably one of the think mall rats was probably one of the best movies ever made so i disagree with best movies ever made so i disagree with best movies ever made so i disagree with the twenty thousand dollar the twenty thousand dollar the twenty thousand dollar budget okay well let's dig in here so budget okay well let's dig in here so budget okay well let's dig in here so what is scatter spoke scatter spoke is a what is scatter spoke scatter spoke is a what is scatter spoke scatter spoke is a tool tool tool for um for online retrospectives and for um for online retrospectives and for um for online retrospectives and it's it's it's it's built to help agile teams have it's built to help agile teams have it's built to help agile teams have um continuous feedback about how they're um continuous feedback about how they're um continuous feedback about how they're working so that they can have honest working so that they can have honest working so that they can have honest conversations about conversations about conversations about what things are working and what needs what things are working and what needs what things are working and what needs to improve and to improve and to improve and and make adjustments to their process and make adjustments to their process and make adjustments to their process along the way so when we think about retrospectives so when we think about retrospectives they typically look something like this they typically look something like this they typically look something like this what didn't go well what what went well

what didn't go well what what went well what didn't go well what what went well what didn't go well what can we improve what didn't go well what can we improve what didn't go well what can we improve they're usually done in a room where they're usually done in a room where they're usually done in a room where everybody's everybody's everybody's together with stickies on the wall and together with stickies on the wall and together with stickies on the wall and often done on a often done on a often done on a regular cadence and not for a lot of regular cadence and not for a lot of regular cadence and not for a lot of teams that are running scrum teams that are running scrum teams that are running scrum practices this is an every two week practices this is an every two week practices this is an every two week occurrence or at the end of each sprint occurrence or at the end of each sprint occurrence or at the end of each sprint you're reflecting back on the sprint and you're reflecting back on the sprint and you're reflecting back on the sprint and saying saying saying how did this work what can we change um how did this work what can we change um how did this work what can we change um for teams that are for teams that are for teams that are running um kanban or maybe longer running um kanban or maybe longer running um kanban or maybe longer running intervals running intervals running intervals they might do this monthly but it's a they might do this monthly but it's a they might do this monthly but it's a chance for the team to all come together chance for the team to all come together chance for the team to all come together and really have and really have and really have an honest conversation with each other an honest conversation with each other an honest conversation with each other so you might be thinking so you might be thinking so you might be thinking that's cool this is all cool why the that's cool this is all cool why the that's cool this is all cool why the hell would someone pay for this hell would someone pay for this hell would someone pay for this um which is a valid question um you know um which is a valid question um you know um which is a valid question um you know i think when i think when i think when from my experience and i've been in in from my experience and i've been in in from my experience and i've been in in the agile world for the agile world for the agile world for 10 years a little over 10 years in the 10 years a little over 10 years in the 10 years a little over 10 years in the software industry for over 20. software industry for over 20. software industry for over 20. it sounds really straightforward get it sounds really straightforward get it sounds really straightforward get everybody together and get everybody everybody together and get everybody everybody together and get everybody talking but when you think about talking but when you think about talking but when you think about teams especially teams of software teams especially teams of software teams especially teams of software developers it can be very hard developers it can be very hard developers it can be very hard to get great honest feedback from people to get great honest feedback from people to get great honest feedback from people it can be even harder when you think it can be even harder when you think it can be even harder when you think about that interval of time between about that interval of time between about that interval of time between when something happens and when we get when something happens and when we get when something happens and when we get together to talk about it people forget together to talk about it people forget together to talk about it people forget we want to sweep those emotions under we want to sweep those emotions under we want to sweep those emotions under the rug and not really the rug and not really the rug and not really have a you know have an honest have a you know have an honest have a you know have an honest conversation about what's going on conversation about what's going on conversation about what's going on um so it can be hard to feel like these um so it can be hard to feel like these um so it can be hard to feel like these are having any are having any are having any you know any actual impact on how we're you know any actual impact on how we're you know any actual impact on how we're working working working i think the other piece of this that

i think the other piece of this that i think the other piece of this that that's really important when you think that's really important when you think that's really important when you think about the tool that we're about the tool that we're about the tool that we're providing to teams is that you can have providing to teams is that you can have providing to teams is that you can have the same conversation the same conversation the same conversation at every retrospective it can feel a at every retrospective it can feel a at every retrospective it can feel a little bit like groundhog's day little bit like groundhog's day little bit like groundhog's day probably dating myself with this movie probably dating myself with this movie probably dating myself with this movie reference too so you can end up having reference too so you can end up having reference too so you can end up having this this this same exact conversation where you're same exact conversation where you're same exact conversation where you're maybe talking about your maybe talking about your maybe talking about your you know issues with your ci cd pipeline you know issues with your ci cd pipeline you know issues with your ci cd pipeline or you're talking about or you're talking about or you're talking about issues with um with your qa efforts and issues with um with your qa efforts and issues with um with your qa efforts and wanting to move to automation but if wanting to move to automation but if wanting to move to automation but if you're doing this you're doing this you're doing this every two weeks and you're having the every two weeks and you're having the every two weeks and you're having the same conversation it's same conversation it's same conversation it's it's hard to feel like this is a it's hard to feel like this is a it's hard to feel like this is a productive use of anyone's time productive use of anyone's time productive use of anyone's time and what's worse is for a lot of and what's worse is for a lot of and what's worse is for a lot of organizations these organizations these organizations these these conversations are probably these conversations are probably these conversations are probably happening in with multiple small teams happening in with multiple small teams happening in with multiple small teams all at the same time everybody's talking all at the same time everybody's talking all at the same time everybody's talking about the same similar problems and we about the same similar problems and we about the same similar problems and we don't have a great way don't have a great way don't have a great way to connect the dots to see how we can to connect the dots to see how we can to connect the dots to see how we can improve those you know those pain points improve those you know those pain points improve those you know those pain points for the organization for the organization for the organization so like rob said this story isn't about so like rob said this story isn't about so like rob said this story isn't about the tool the tool the tool it's about the journey and how we got it's about the journey and how we got it's about the journey and how we got there um you are not mistaken there um you are not mistaken there um you are not mistaken that that first image on our timeline that that first image on our timeline that that first image on our timeline here of our road to 10k as a coors light here of our road to 10k as a coors light here of our road to 10k as a coors light can can can so in 2015 my husband so in 2015 my husband so in 2015 my husband and i were hanging out one afternoon and i were hanging out one afternoon and i were hanging out one afternoon drinking coors light in the backyard drinking coors light in the backyard drinking coors light in the backyard and he said i really want um to learn and he said i really want um to learn and he said i really want um to learn more about how to build a real-time more about how to build a real-time more about how to build a real-time app so i want to learn node.js and app so i want to learn node.js and app so i want to learn node.js and angular angular angular and play around with web sockets and at and play around with web sockets and at and play around with web sockets and at the time i was moving into a consulting

the time i was moving into a consulting the time i was moving into a consulting position and i was working with a lot of position and i was working with a lot of position and i was working with a lot of teams on how to build out teams on how to build out teams on how to build out a portfolio portfolio kanban system that a portfolio portfolio kanban system that a portfolio portfolio kanban system that would help them track things like would help them track things like would help them track things like um how to do exploratory testing on um how to do exploratory testing on um how to do exploratory testing on problems and solutions with users before problems and solutions with users before problems and solutions with users before building things building things building things and i said you know this sounds this and i said you know this sounds this and i said you know this sounds this sounds fun let's try let's try to build sounds fun let's try let's try to build sounds fun let's try let's try to build something something something um and it felt like a great way for him um and it felt like a great way for him um and it felt like a great way for him to get his hands dirty with the to get his hands dirty with the to get his hands dirty with the technology he was interested in technology he was interested in technology he was interested in and for me to really put my money where and for me to really put my money where and for me to really put my money where my where my mouth was i was teaching my where my mouth was i was teaching my where my mouth was i was teaching other teams how to do these things but other teams how to do these things but other teams how to do these things but had never had never had never built something on my own so it was built something on my own so it was built something on my own so it was really started with really started with really started with an opportunity to learn i knew the agile an opportunity to learn i knew the agile an opportunity to learn i knew the agile space really well space really well space really well and so i knew that there was this need and so i knew that there was this need and so i knew that there was this need for for for a way to have a retrospective where a way to have a retrospective where a way to have a retrospective where people could provide feedback people could provide feedback people could provide feedback anonymously anonymously anonymously and not be tied to the comments they and not be tied to the comments they and not be tied to the comments they were putting up on the stickies were putting up on the stickies were putting up on the stickies and then the other problem i kept seeing and then the other problem i kept seeing and then the other problem i kept seeing was that in clients i was working with was that in clients i was working with was that in clients i was working with they would they would they would constantly reschedule their their constantly reschedule their their constantly reschedule their their retrospectives especially if they were retrospectives especially if they were retrospectives especially if they were on a friday and people were out or they on a friday and people were out or they on a friday and people were out or they were down to the wire on a sprint were down to the wire on a sprint were down to the wire on a sprint deadline deadline deadline it was the first meeting to always get it was the first meeting to always get it was the first meeting to always get pushed off pushed off pushed off so i wanted to figure out how could we so i wanted to figure out how could we so i wanted to figure out how could we um how could we build something and test um how could we build something and test um how could we build something and test out you know these new technologies how out you know these new technologies how out you know these new technologies how could we build could we build could we build something i could use so it was very something i could use so it was very something i could use so it was very selfish that i could use with my clients selfish that i could use with my clients selfish that i could use with my clients to help to help to help make these retrospectives a better make these retrospectives a better make these retrospectives a better experience for for the teams experience for for the teams experience for for the teams um so sat around drank a bunch of coors um so sat around drank a bunch of coors um so sat around drank a bunch of coors light um light um light um did exactly what corinne said and hopped did exactly what corinne said and hopped did exactly what corinne said and hopped on and tried to buy a domain

on and tried to buy a domain on and tried to buy a domain um and then we did the very important um and then we did the very important um and then we did the very important next step next step next step of um purchasing a shitload of stickers of um purchasing a shitload of stickers of um purchasing a shitload of stickers and then nothing happened so i got and then nothing happened so i got and then nothing happened so i got really focused on really focused on really focused on consulting um and used you know i consulting um and used you know i consulting um and used you know i continued to use the tool continued to use the tool continued to use the tool from a coaching perspective my husband from a coaching perspective my husband from a coaching perspective my husband john continued to tinker with it and john continued to tinker with it and john continued to tinker with it and play around with different play around with different play around with different technologies but we really didn't do a technologies but we really didn't do a technologies but we really didn't do a whole lot with the tool whole lot with the tool whole lot with the tool for about a year um it was really cool for about a year um it was really cool for about a year um it was really cool because it was because it was because it was an opportunity for me to keep using it an opportunity for me to keep using it an opportunity for me to keep using it with people in here real-time feedback with people in here real-time feedback with people in here real-time feedback and i would come home with that and say and i would come home with that and say and i would come home with that and say you know people want to be able to vote you know people want to be able to vote you know people want to be able to vote or want to be able to group on items or want to be able to group on items or want to be able to group on items or create an action item and so we were or create an action item and so we were or create an action item and so we were slowly adding new things but never slowly adding new things but never slowly adding new things but never still never really had the intent of still never really had the intent of still never really had the intent of turning this into an turning this into an turning this into an actual business it was still just actual business it was still just actual business it was still just something that was something that was something that was for both of us both of us to learn how for both of us both of us to learn how for both of us both of us to learn how to to to how to put all of this into practice how to put all of this into practice how to put all of this into practice so the next step for us so the next step for us so the next step for us um around 2017 um was actually we um around 2017 um was actually we um around 2017 um was actually we started to see that started to see that started to see that using our google analytics that we had a using our google analytics that we had a using our google analytics that we had a fair amount of people coming to the site fair amount of people coming to the site fair amount of people coming to the site we that was all we could track we didn't we that was all we could track we didn't we that was all we could track we didn't have have have the concept of a user so we said why the concept of a user so we said why the concept of a user so we said why don't we don't we don't we go ahead and create a simple way to go ahead and create a simple way to go ahead and create a simple way to register before you can access register before you can access register before you can access the boards still everything was the boards still everything was the boards still everything was completely free there was completely free there was completely free there was you know no charges or credit cards or you know no charges or credit cards or you know no charges or credit cards or subscriptions or anything at that point subscriptions or anything at that point subscriptions or anything at that point it was just a way to collect email it was just a way to collect email it was just a way to collect email addresses um and

addresses um and addresses um and i was the one that was very reluctant to i was the one that was very reluctant to i was the one that was very reluctant to have any kind of user registration for have any kind of user registration for have any kind of user registration for the longest time i wanted to make sure the longest time i wanted to make sure the longest time i wanted to make sure that this was simple to use i was very that this was simple to use i was very that this was simple to use i was very scared that scared that scared that if we made it harder to you know if we if we made it harder to you know if we if we made it harder to you know if we made it harder to get in and use the made it harder to get in and use the made it harder to get in and use the tool quickly that people would just tool quickly that people would just tool quickly that people would just stop using it and what we found was stop using it and what we found was stop using it and what we found was quite the opposite we just saw the quite the opposite we just saw the quite the opposite we just saw the the number of registered users going up the number of registered users going up the number of registered users going up and up and up and up and up and up and up in 2017. um we closed in 2017. um we closed in 2017. um we closed 2017 out with about 12 000 2017 out with about 12 000 2017 out with about 12 000 users and um users and um users and um what was really funny when curran was what was really funny when curran was what was really funny when curran was talking about feedback talking about feedback talking about feedback was that year we also installed drift so was that year we also installed drift so was that year we also installed drift so that we could that we could that we could look so we could start to communicate look so we could start to communicate look so we could start to communicate with people if they were having issues with people if they were having issues with people if they were having issues if they had feedback if they had feedback if they had feedback like curran said um we had some really like curran said um we had some really like curran said um we had some really rough rough rough feedback there for a while probably one feedback there for a while probably one feedback there for a while probably one of the funniest moments i think was of the funniest moments i think was of the funniest moments i think was like her campfire story we were sitting like her campfire story we were sitting like her campfire story we were sitting around and had somebody around and had somebody around and had somebody pop on and say um your ui looks like pop on and say um your ui looks like pop on and say um your ui looks like it looks like it was built by a it looks like it was built by a it looks like it was built by a drunk drunk drunk intern we had some fun moments intern we had some fun moments intern we had some fun moments that that were a little painful but um that that were a little painful but um that that were a little painful but um that combination that combination that combination in 2017 of creating a user account and in 2017 of creating a user account and in 2017 of creating a user account and being able to communicate with users and being able to communicate with users and being able to communicate with users and track users track users track users and then also have drift on the site so and then also have drift on the site so and then also have drift on the site so we were getting feedback and we were getting feedback and we were getting feedback and understanding what problems they were understanding what problems they were understanding what problems they were running running running into kind of changed everything for us into kind of changed everything for us into kind of changed everything for us the funny part about having drift on the funny part about having drift on the funny part about having drift on there was towards the there was towards the there was towards the end of 2017 we had somebody pop on drift

end of 2017 we had somebody pop on drift end of 2017 we had somebody pop on drift and um it was kind of creepy at first and um it was kind of creepy at first and um it was kind of creepy at first they were looking for me specifically they were looking for me specifically they were looking for me specifically and invited me to come speak at a big and invited me to come speak at a big and invited me to come speak at a big agile conference agile conference agile conference in brussels belgium in 2018 in brussels belgium in 2018 in brussels belgium in 2018 so we got super excited and we saw this so we got super excited and we saw this so we got super excited and we saw this as a way as a way as a way um to launch a new version of the site um to launch a new version of the site um to launch a new version of the site that would start to charge that would start to charge that would start to charge and we used that experience of keynoting and we used that experience of keynoting and we used that experience of keynoting and being on stage in brussels and being on stage in brussels and being on stage in brussels is kind of this kicking off point so is kind of this kicking off point so is kind of this kicking off point so that was in february of 2018 so we spent that was in february of 2018 so we spent that was in february of 2018 so we spent really like the entire holiday season really like the entire holiday season really like the entire holiday season leading up to that trying to get leading up to that trying to get leading up to that trying to get a complete redesign of the site up with a complete redesign of the site up with a complete redesign of the site up with new logos new new logos new new logos new just a completely brand new um interface just a completely brand new um interface just a completely brand new um interface that we ended up launching um alongside that we ended up launching um alongside that we ended up launching um alongside that agile conference in belgium that agile conference in belgium that agile conference in belgium so we started charging and we kept the so we started charging and we kept the so we started charging and we kept the free version free version free version but we always we made it we made some of but we always we made it we made some of but we always we made it we made some of the other features basically the other features basically the other features basically subscription only and um when we subscription only and um when we subscription only and um when we when we launched all of this we were when we launched all of this we were when we launched all of this we were pretty close to 20 pretty close to 20 pretty close to 20 000 registered users and we started to 000 registered users and we started to 000 registered users and we started to see some small conversions see some small conversions see some small conversions i think at that time you know it was i think at that time you know it was i think at that time you know it was like just as many people that would like just as many people that would like just as many people that would subscribe would cancel a month later so subscribe would cancel a month later so subscribe would cancel a month later so we were still we were still we were still missing something and we were continuing missing something and we were continuing missing something and we were continuing to communicate with people through drift to communicate with people through drift to communicate with people through drift get feedback about the tool um and get feedback about the tool um and get feedback about the tool um and really start to understand what things really start to understand what things really start to understand what things were missing were missing were missing i would say around the same time in 2018 i would say around the same time in 2018 i would say around the same time in 2018 we saw a ton of other retrospectives we saw a ton of other retrospectives we saw a ton of other retrospectives tools start to enter the market and tools start to enter the market and tools start to enter the market and charge so it was kind of validating for charge so it was kind of validating for charge so it was kind of validating for us that this was

us that this was us that this was this was something that could become an this was something that could become an this was something that could become an actual business because we were starting actual business because we were starting actual business because we were starting to see some competition to see some competition to see some competition we were also pretty excited around you we were also pretty excited around you we were also pretty excited around you know the competition that was coming know the competition that was coming know the competition that was coming into the space took a very different into the space took a very different into the space took a very different approach to retrospectives than what we approach to retrospectives than what we approach to retrospectives than what we were doing and so it gave were doing and so it gave were doing and so it gave us kind of a unique a uniqueness in the us kind of a unique a uniqueness in the us kind of a unique a uniqueness in the industry industry industry so in 2018 we kind of we saw a lot of so in 2018 we kind of we saw a lot of so in 2018 we kind of we saw a lot of use uh usage go up new accounts coming use uh usage go up new accounts coming use uh usage go up new accounts coming in in in um started to see some of those convert um started to see some of those convert um started to see some of those convert but it wasn't like but it wasn't like but it wasn't like we were going to quit our day jobs we were going to quit our day jobs we were going to quit our day jobs anytime soon it was still very slow anytime soon it was still very slow anytime soon it was still very slow growth and then um in 2019 i think we were both and then um in 2019 i think we were both starting to feel like um we were i think starting to feel like um we were i think starting to feel like um we were i think we were both just distracted to be we were both just distracted to be we were both just distracted to be honest honest honest um i was leaving my consulting career um i was leaving my consulting career um i was leaving my consulting career and starting my own consulting business and starting my own consulting business and starting my own consulting business my husband was working for um a big my husband was working for um a big my husband was working for um a big uh cryptocurrency exchange uh cryptocurrency exchange uh cryptocurrency exchange and so we were both kind of getting and so we were both kind of getting and so we were both kind of getting focused in very different places focused in very different places focused in very different places and i think feeling a little bit like and i think feeling a little bit like and i think feeling a little bit like this just wasn't going to work this just wasn't going to work this just wasn't going to work especially not especially not especially not on nights and weekends and all of the on nights and weekends and all of the on nights and weekends and all of the sudden we got a request sudden we got a request sudden we got a request from a huge company that wanted to buy from a huge company that wanted to buy from a huge company that wanted to buy 2000 2000 2000 licenses um and we were like oh my god licenses um and we were like oh my god licenses um and we were like oh my god what's happening what's happening what's happening where is this coming from um this is where is this coming from um this is where is this coming from um this is never you know we didn't really even never you know we didn't really even never you know we didn't really even know how to do enterprise pricing know how to do enterprise pricing know how to do enterprise pricing we were googling for enterprise we were googling for enterprise we were googling for enterprise contracts contracts contracts we didn't have a lawyer we didn't have we didn't have a lawyer we didn't have we didn't have a lawyer we didn't have you know we just really were not ready you know we just really were not ready you know we just really were not ready to do to do to do any of this but super it like

any of this but super it like any of this but super it like reinvigorated reinvigorated reinvigorated all of our energy around trying to make all of our energy around trying to make all of our energy around trying to make this into this into this into an amazing business um so we went down an amazing business um so we went down an amazing business um so we went down the path of contract negotiation with the path of contract negotiation with the path of contract negotiation with this big company this big company this big company to get them set up with 2000 licenses to get them set up with 2000 licenses to get them set up with 2000 licenses and a big part of that was and a big part of that was and a big part of that was we just didn't have a lot of we just didn't have a lot of we just didn't have a lot of infrastructure in place to support a infrastructure in place to support a infrastructure in place to support a large large large organization yet so we had to build out organization yet so we had to build out organization yet so we had to build out like an admin portal to manage like an admin portal to manage like an admin portal to manage teams and accounts we had to build out teams and accounts we had to build out teams and accounts we had to build out single sign-on we had all of these single sign-on we had all of these single sign-on we had all of these things that this company wanted things that this company wanted things that this company wanted us to build as part of this contract us to build as part of this contract us to build as part of this contract that was actually that was actually that was actually in a lot of ways forcing us to an actual in a lot of ways forcing us to an actual in a lot of ways forcing us to an actual product market fit that we just didn't product market fit that we just didn't product market fit that we just didn't have before i think have before i think have before i think it was it was a cool way for us to learn it was it was a cool way for us to learn it was it was a cool way for us to learn and experiment and experiment and experiment um in both of our areas of expertise but um in both of our areas of expertise but um in both of our areas of expertise but for up until this point in time a lot of for up until this point in time a lot of for up until this point in time a lot of what we were doing was what we were doing was what we were doing was was playing i would get ideas and want was playing i would get ideas and want was playing i would get ideas and want to try something john would get ideas i to try something john would get ideas i to try something john would get ideas i want to try something different want to try something different want to try something different and so until we have this big enterprise and so until we have this big enterprise and so until we have this big enterprise deal staring deal staring deal staring staring us down with all these custom staring us down with all these custom staring us down with all these custom requests requests requests it really helped us see what do we need it really helped us see what do we need it really helped us see what do we need to sell into these large organizations to sell into these large organizations to sell into these large organizations going forward so i think we didn't going forward so i think we didn't going forward so i think we didn't really find our product market fit really find our product market fit really find our product market fit until just last year so going in to this year so so going in to this year so we are part of the 2020 um tiny seed we are part of the 2020 um tiny seed we are part of the 2020 um tiny seed cohort cohort cohort and um we've had a bunch of of great and um we've had a bunch of of great and um we've had a bunch of of great things happen things happen things happen this year so we've been able to focus on

this year so we've been able to focus on this year so we've been able to focus on on this on this on this business full time now we have been able business full time now we have been able business full time now we have been able to to to invest in marketing which we had never invest in marketing which we had never invest in marketing which we had never spent any money on spent any money on spent any money on in the past we've gone down the road of in the past we've gone down the road of in the past we've gone down the road of getting getting getting a lot of security things shored up that a lot of security things shored up that a lot of security things shored up that we hadn't done we hadn't done we hadn't done in the past and we're on track to close in the past and we're on track to close in the past and we're on track to close two more two more two more large enterprise deals this year we've large enterprise deals this year we've large enterprise deals this year we've closed three smaller enterprise deals closed three smaller enterprise deals closed three smaller enterprise deals um since coming on um or since the um since coming on um or since the um since coming on um or since the beginning of 2020 so we're on beginning of 2020 so we're on beginning of 2020 so we're on track to hit a 10k mrr hopefully next track to hit a 10k mrr hopefully next track to hit a 10k mrr hopefully next month and expect to close those two month and expect to close those two month and expect to close those two enterprise deals before the year enterprise deals before the year enterprise deals before the year is over and that will pretty much double is over and that will pretty much double is over and that will pretty much double where we're at where we're at where we're at in terms of mrr so we're super excited in terms of mrr so we're super excited in terms of mrr so we're super excited this path has been kind of a crazy road this path has been kind of a crazy road this path has been kind of a crazy road for us for us for us of um a lot of ups and downs and it was of um a lot of ups and downs and it was of um a lot of ups and downs and it was interesting to hear sherry talk because interesting to hear sherry talk because interesting to hear sherry talk because i was thinking about some of that i was thinking about some of that i was thinking about some of that emotional rollercoaster that you feel of emotional rollercoaster that you feel of emotional rollercoaster that you feel of being super excited and having a ton of being super excited and having a ton of being super excited and having a ton of wind in your sails and having that wind in your sails and having that wind in your sails and having that totally knocked out of you um you know a totally knocked out of you um you know a totally knocked out of you um you know a couple days later it is a lot of couple days later it is a lot of couple days later it is a lot of ups and downs but we feel like now we're ups and downs but we feel like now we're ups and downs but we feel like now we're really on this great trajectory really on this great trajectory really on this great trajectory and a lot of that came from landing that and a lot of that came from landing that and a lot of that came from landing that big enterprise deal that helped us sort big enterprise deal that helped us sort big enterprise deal that helped us sort out out out um what do big companies want and what um what do big companies want and what um what do big companies want and what do they need and for our do they need and for our do they need and for our particular sas model um that's that's particular sas model um that's that's particular sas model um that's that's the bus that's the the bus that's the the bus that's the um sale that we want to go after we want um sale that we want to go after we want um sale that we want to go after we want to really target these large enterprises to really target these large enterprises to really target these large enterprises there's a lot of easy ways and and other there's a lot of easy ways and and other there's a lot of easy ways and and other free tools available free tools available free tools available that are in our space for small teams um that are in our space for small teams um that are in our space for small teams um but there's not a lot but there's not a lot but there's not a lot available that helps big organizations

available that helps big organizations available that helps big organizations connect these problems across the connect these problems across the connect these problems across the organization the way that scattersbook organization the way that scattersbook organization the way that scattersbook does does does so we're super excited that's everything so we're super excited that's everything so we're super excited that's everything i've got oh one more i've got oh one more i've got oh one more um and that's what's what's next for us um and that's what's what's next for us um and that's what's what's next for us so going into 2021 we're continuing to so going into 2021 we're continuing to so going into 2021 we're continuing to focus on these large enterprises focus on these large enterprises focus on these large enterprises and really trying to find alignment with and really trying to find alignment with and really trying to find alignment with some different agile frameworks things some different agile frameworks things some different agile frameworks things like scale dagil like scale dagil like scale dagil there's a couple new players in the there's a couple new players in the there's a couple new players in the market around different frameworks for market around different frameworks for market around different frameworks for large organizations going through large organizations going through large organizations going through transformation efforts transformation efforts transformation efforts another big focus for us going into another big focus for us going into another big focus for us going into 2021 is integration so we're we've 2021 is integration so we're we've 2021 is integration so we're we've already got already got already got thing we've got integrations with slack thing we've got integrations with slack thing we've got integrations with slack and with jira and with jira and with jira um we're gonna focus heavily on adding a um we're gonna focus heavily on adding a um we're gonna focus heavily on adding a lot more lot more lot more um integrations to that list going into um integrations to that list going into um integrations to that list going into next year and continuing to target these next year and continuing to target these next year and continuing to target these these big enterprise contracts these big enterprise contracts these big enterprise contracts that's everything i've got that's our that's everything i've got that's our that's everything i've got that's our road to 10k mrr road to 10k mrr road to 10k mrr we'll go ahead and kick it back to you we'll go ahead and kick it back to you we'll go ahead and kick it back to you rob all right thank you so much colleen we all right thank you so much colleen we are gonna have um are gonna have um are gonna have um some audience questions coming through some audience questions coming through some audience questions coming through and before we do that and before we do that and before we do that uh i have a couple for you so uh i have a couple for you so uh i have a couple for you so i appreciate your thoughts on mall rats i appreciate your thoughts on mall rats i appreciate your thoughts on mall rats however however however so kevin smith's first film was clerks so kevin smith's first film was clerks so kevin smith's first film was clerks and it was a black and white film that and it was a black and white film that and it was a black and white film that he made for like 25k of credit card debt he made for like 25k of credit card debt he made for like 25k of credit card debt yeah and so i i own i'm like the the yeah and so i i own i'm like the the yeah and so i i own i'm like the the comic book nerds who i own comic book nerds who i own comic book nerds who i own i think they called the unholy trilogy i think they called the unholy trilogy i think they called the unholy trilogy right like my rats chasing amy and uh

right like my rats chasing amy and uh right like my rats chasing amy and uh and dogma and dogma and dogma um and he's another one that like didn't um and he's another one that like didn't um and he's another one that like didn't ask for permission you know and he went ask for permission you know and he went ask for permission you know and he went off and started his own podcast network off and started his own podcast network off and started his own podcast network because he got tired of because he got tired of because he got tired of cow towing to uh to hollywood so cow towing to uh to hollywood so cow towing to uh to hollywood so all rats were good what was the budget all rats were good what was the budget all rats were good what was the budget for mall rats for mall rats for mall rats i think it was a quarter million dollars i think it was a quarter million dollars i think it was a quarter million dollars oh yeah it was pretty small oh yeah it was pretty small oh yeah it was pretty small no no that's actually incorrect maul no no that's actually incorrect maul no no that's actually incorrect maul rats was like five or six million rats was like five or six million rats was like five or six million and he didn't like having so much money and he didn't like having so much money and he didn't like having so much money because he had to blow it because he had to blow it because he had to blow it and then he when he came back to make and then he when he came back to make and then he when he came back to make chasing amy he made it for a quarter chasing amy he made it for a quarter chasing amy he made it for a quarter million dollars million dollars million dollars and that was again it was like he and that was again it was like he and that was again it was like he preferred to be that scrappy preferred to be that scrappy preferred to be that scrappy bootstrapper to not be on the hook for bootstrapper to not be on the hook for bootstrapper to not be on the hook for that huge budget and feel all the that huge budget and feel all the that huge budget and feel all the pressure it's kind of like raising pressure it's kind of like raising pressure it's kind of like raising venture capital right venture capital right venture capital right you raise 1 million versus yeah you know you raise 1 million versus yeah you know you raise 1 million versus yeah you know your bootstrap or you raise 100k it's your bootstrap or you raise 100k it's your bootstrap or you raise 100k it's like such a different like such a different like such a different such a different game have you seen such a different game have you seen such a different game have you seen clerks yes definitely clerks yes definitely clerks yes definitely i've seen them all what are doing what i've seen them all what are doing what i've seen them all what are doing what do you like all rats are clerks do you like all rats are clerks do you like all rats are clerks i like mama rats better than clerks but i like mama rats better than clerks but i like mama rats better than clerks but dogma is definitely my favorite dogma is definitely my favorite dogma is definitely my favorite yeah yeah i think mine too uh producer yeah yeah i think mine too uh producer yeah yeah i think mine too uh producer xander can i get a little more of xander can i get a little more of xander can i get a little more of colleen in my monitor i'm having trouble colleen in my monitor i'm having trouble colleen in my monitor i'm having trouble hearing a little bit hearing a little bit hearing a little bit all right so i'm curious um oh we have a all right so i'm curious um oh we have a all right so i'm curious um oh we have a awesome i was going to start asking you awesome i was going to start asking you awesome i was going to start asking you my questions but my questions but my questions but i'd love to get live questions from the i'd love to get live questions from the i'd love to get live questions from the audience so first question from james audience so first question from james audience so first question from james mcbrien he says what were the key mcbrien he says what were the key mcbrien he says what were the key changes that opened up the enterprise changes that opened up the enterprise changes that opened up the enterprise pipeline for you pipeline for you pipeline for you you know i'm i don't know if i have a you know i'm i don't know if i have a you know i'm i don't know if i have a really solid answer here we really solid answer here we really solid answer here we um i think starting to so i started um i think starting to so i started um i think starting to so i started really doing a lot of public speaking in really doing a lot of public speaking in really doing a lot of public speaking in 2017 and speaking at conferences 2017 and speaking at conferences 2017 and speaking at conferences we had still until this year haven't we had still until this year haven't we had still until this year haven't spent any money on advertising that spent any money on advertising that spent any money on advertising that includes even just google adwords includes even just google adwords includes even just google adwords um so all of our users and all of our

um so all of our users and all of our um so all of our users and all of our traffic came from traffic came from traffic came from um presenting at conferences word of um presenting at conferences word of um presenting at conferences word of mouth people seeing reviews on different mouth people seeing reviews on different mouth people seeing reviews on different networks networks networks or hearing other you know other coaches or hearing other you know other coaches or hearing other you know other coaches or scrum masters talking about or scrum masters talking about or scrum masters talking about what do you use for retros um so i think what do you use for retros um so i think what do you use for retros um so i think a lot of what opened up that a lot of what opened up that a lot of what opened up that opportunity for us enterprise-wise has opportunity for us enterprise-wise has opportunity for us enterprise-wise has been um been um been um these tight-knit communities and karen these tight-knit communities and karen these tight-knit communities and karen talked about this too of like finding talked about this too of like finding talked about this too of like finding your audience finding who your audience finding who your audience finding who are the people that are the ones going are the people that are the ones going are the people that are the ones going to search for a tool to search for a tool to search for a tool so that they that you can really target so that they that you can really target so that they that you can really target having a presence in that having a presence in that having a presence in that in that space and so for us that's a lot in that space and so for us that's a lot in that space and so for us that's a lot of things linkedin is like of things linkedin is like of things linkedin is like facebook fragile coaches it's kind of facebook fragile coaches it's kind of facebook fragile coaches it's kind of funny um funny um funny um and then there's a lot of different and then there's a lot of different and then there's a lot of different forums that are very specific to agile forums that are very specific to agile forums that are very specific to agile practices and how to run great retros practices and how to run great retros practices and how to run great retros where we've where we've where we've made sure that we are our voices heard made sure that we are our voices heard made sure that we are our voices heard in those forums too so in those forums too so in those forums too so people just have found us through things people just have found us through things people just have found us through things like that like that like that very cool and i'm curious um you talked very cool and i'm curious um you talked very cool and i'm curious um you talked about about about the competition that started springing the competition that started springing the competition that started springing up and charging in up and charging in up and charging in uh well i can't see your slide but i uh well i can't see your slide but i uh well i can't see your slide but i forget if it was 20 17 or 18 time frame forget if it was 20 17 or 18 time frame forget if it was 20 17 or 18 time frame was that you mentioned it was motivating was that you mentioned it was motivating was that you mentioned it was motivating um was it also um was it also um was it also intimidating a bit or was it only intimidating a bit or was it only intimidating a bit or was it only positive for you positive for you positive for you oh my god it's still intimidating that oh my god it's still intimidating that oh my god it's still intimidating that that hasn't gone away that hasn't gone away that hasn't gone away and i think i you know it's been it's and i think i you know it's been it's and i think i you know it's been it's been interesting because we came out been interesting because we came out been interesting because we came out with like with like with like 39 a month plan and then we dropped it 39 a month plan and then we dropped it 39 a month plan and then we dropped it to 29 and then we dropped it to 25 to 29 and then we dropped it to 25 to 29 and then we dropped it to 25 and at one point you know before we and at one point you know before we and at one point you know before we signed that big contract we were like signed that big contract we were like signed that big contract we were like let's just make it 19 a month we've been let's just make it 19 a month we've been let's just make it 19 a month we've been all over the place all over the place all over the place in terms of what took a charge and what

in terms of what took a charge and what in terms of what took a charge and what does that include does that include does that include um and even just pushed out some new um and even just pushed out some new um and even just pushed out some new changes in april around our pricing changes in april around our pricing changes in april around our pricing i think that's been a good lesson and i think that's been a good lesson and i think that's been a good lesson and part of the tiny seed mentor program is part of the tiny seed mentor program is part of the tiny seed mentor program is that that that that's okay and that's a normal kind of that's okay and that's a normal kind of that's okay and that's a normal kind of journey for a startup to take is to journey for a startup to take is to journey for a startup to take is to continue to play around with that continue to play around with that continue to play around with that pricing but pricing but pricing but we spent a lot of time initially looking we spent a lot of time initially looking we spent a lot of time initially looking at our competitors and saying at our competitors and saying at our competitors and saying what do we have that they have or what what do we have that they have or what what do we have that they have or what do they have that we don't have and how do they have that we don't have and how do they have that we don't have and how do we price do we price do we price according to to what they've got um i according to to what they've got um i according to to what they've got um i think not until this year would i say think not until this year would i say think not until this year would i say that we've gotten to the point where we that we've gotten to the point where we that we've gotten to the point where we don't care don't care don't care we don't care what they have or what we don't care what they have or what we don't care what they have or what they're charging i think we have a they're charging i think we have a they're charging i think we have a pretty good understanding of what we pretty good understanding of what we pretty good understanding of what we offer and what the value there is offer and what the value there is offer and what the value there is especially knowing that it's an especially knowing that it's an especially knowing that it's an enterprise that's paying for it right enterprise that's paying for it right enterprise that's paying for it right it's not it's not it's not it's not often somebody pulling out it's not often somebody pulling out it's not often somebody pulling out their own credit card um to pay for our their own credit card um to pay for our their own credit card um to pay for our tool tool tool so knowing that we're yeah keep going so knowing that we're yeah keep going so knowing that we're yeah keep going keep going with that keep going with that keep going with that yeah so knowing that it's like a big yeah so knowing that it's like a big yeah so knowing that it's like a big enterprise that's writing a check for an enterprise that's writing a check for an enterprise that's writing a check for an entire year of service or license seats entire year of service or license seats entire year of service or license seats it's kind of changed our approach to it's kind of changed our approach to it's kind of changed our approach to what we charge what we charge what we charge and i think that that's given us a and i think that that's given us a and i think that that's given us a little bit more confidence in where little bit more confidence in where little bit more confidence in where we're at now and we're at now and we're at now and i think more flexibility and continuing i think more flexibility and continuing i think more flexibility and continuing to change it going forward to change it going forward to change it going forward yeah and that's such a big i mean part yeah and that's such a big i mean part yeah and that's such a big i mean part of the key part of what you just said is of the key part of what you just said is of the key part of what you just said is you used to be really concerned about you used to be really concerned about you used to be really concerned about what your competitors were pricing and what your competitors were pricing and what your competitors were pricing and how they were arranging that how they were arranging that how they were arranging that and now you're kind of confident that and now you're kind of confident that and now you're kind of confident that you're doing the right thing based on you're doing the right thing based on you're doing the right thing based on your customers your customers your customers that's such a part of product market fit that's such a part of product market fit that's such a part of product market fit that people don't realize or don't talk that people don't realize or don't talk that people don't realize or don't talk about is once you have about is once you have about is once you have the confidence in um in what you're the confidence in um in what you're the confidence in um in what you're doing and what the feedback you're doing and what the feedback you're doing and what the feedback you're getting and it's just working and you're getting and it's just working and you're getting and it's just working and you're signing these big deals

signing these big deals signing these big deals that is again a component of you know that is again a component of you know that is again a component of you know what i would i would call product market what i would i would call product market what i would i would call product market fit because until you're fit because until you're fit because until you're starting to feel decent about your starting to feel decent about your starting to feel decent about your pricing i don't i don't think that you pricing i don't i don't think that you pricing i don't i don't think that you have that have that have that yeah yeah and it's hard to i think it's yeah yeah and it's hard to i think it's yeah yeah and it's hard to i think it's hard you know we even had a huge company hard you know we even had a huge company hard you know we even had a huge company come to us at one point and ask come to us at one point and ask come to us at one point and ask for a quote for an enterprise contract for a quote for an enterprise contract for a quote for an enterprise contract when we provided them a number when we provided them a number when we provided them a number um the person on the on the phone was um the person on the on the phone was um the person on the on the phone was like i don't understand how you can like i don't understand how you can like i don't understand how you can charge that much it's just a whiteboard charge that much it's just a whiteboard charge that much it's just a whiteboard tool like it's just sticky notes and so tool like it's just sticky notes and so tool like it's just sticky notes and so we you know we got defensive i think we you know we got defensive i think we you know we got defensive i think initially and we were like initially and we were like initially and we were like oh no but here's all the other things oh no but here's all the other things oh no but here's all the other things that could do and here's how it's useful that could do and here's how it's useful that could do and here's how it's useful and then it was like you know what and then it was like you know what and then it was like you know what um thank you for your feedback and you um thank you for your feedback and you um thank you for your feedback and you know explore other options and if you know explore other options and if you know explore other options and if you change your mind come back change your mind come back change your mind come back to us um so it's it's hard the pricing to us um so it's it's hard the pricing to us um so it's it's hard the pricing game is a hard one to i think game is a hard one to i think game is a hard one to i think find find that groove and feel confident find find that groove and feel confident find find that groove and feel confident like you said that like you said that like you said that what you're offering matches up with what you're offering matches up with what you're offering matches up with what you're charging what you're charging what you're charging yep yeah so easy to be so fragile it's yep yeah so easy to be so fragile it's yep yeah so easy to be so fragile it's like like like um yeah it's like your feelings or your um yeah it's like your feelings or your um yeah it's like your feelings or your ego are tied up in it i mean every time ego are tied up in it i mean every time ego are tied up in it i mean every time i've launched a new i've launched a new i've launched a new product or service or conference or product or service or conference or product or service or conference or accelerator or anything accelerator or anything accelerator or anything it's just the first like five it's just the first like five it's just the first like five conversations you have when people don't conversations you have when people don't conversations you have when people don't like it you're like oh no this is never like it you're like oh no this is never like it you're like oh no this is never gonna work we can't possibly make this gonna work we can't possibly make this gonna work we can't possibly make this work work work but you know obviously obviously you do but you know obviously obviously you do but you know obviously obviously you do because you're on the road to 10k here because you're on the road to 10k here because you're on the road to 10k here uh we have a question from dominic uh we have a question from dominic uh we have a question from dominic taylor and he says how do you know when taylor and he says how do you know when taylor and he says how do you know when to leave to leave to leave the day job how do you think about that the day job how do you think about that the day job how do you think about that weighing that you know that because we weighing that you know that because we weighing that you know that because we all have responsibilities and everything all have responsibilities and everything all have responsibilities and everything yeah it's super hard i mean um actually yeah it's super hard i mean um actually yeah it's super hard i mean um actually joining tinyseed was the catalyst for us joining tinyseed was the catalyst for us joining tinyseed was the catalyst for us to be able to make that happen to be able to make that happen to be able to make that happen um i had i had branched off and started um i had i had branched off and started um i had i had branched off and started doing consulting

doing consulting doing consulting you know under my own business about two you know under my own business about two you know under my own business about two years ago and that really helped me years ago and that really helped me years ago and that really helped me make the jump into making scatter spoke make the jump into making scatter spoke make the jump into making scatter spoke our full-time our full-time our full-time you know our full-time business so we you know our full-time business so we you know our full-time business so we started to tiptoe into other ways i started to tiptoe into other ways i started to tiptoe into other ways i think to supplement income to get us think to supplement income to get us think to supplement income to get us there and there and there and now my husband's full-time on this as now my husband's full-time on this as now my husband's full-time on this as well but it's it's hard i mean i think well but it's it's hard i mean i think well but it's it's hard i mean i think that there's that there's that there's there's all these things right of there's all these things right of there's all these things right of understanding what your threshold is understanding what your threshold is understanding what your threshold is um feeling like you have enough sucked um feeling like you have enough sucked um feeling like you have enough sucked away in case things don't work out for a away in case things don't work out for a away in case things don't work out for a couple months i mean for couple months i mean for couple months i mean for i would say up until 2019 we were i would say up until 2019 we were i would say up until 2019 we were spending more just on like hosting and spending more just on like hosting and spending more just on like hosting and emailing emailing emailing services than we were ever making on the services than we were ever making on the services than we were ever making on the tool so it's been pretty new to be tool so it's been pretty new to be tool so it's been pretty new to be um even marginally profitable let alone um even marginally profitable let alone um even marginally profitable let alone to the point where we could to the point where we could to the point where we could thinking about supporting our family thinking about supporting our family thinking about supporting our family this way so taking the tiny seed this way so taking the tiny seed this way so taking the tiny seed investment definitely helped us get investment definitely helped us get investment definitely helped us get there even though there even though there even though we've been spending that on other things we've been spending that on other things we've been spending that on other things as well but as well but as well but i think there's a lot of personal i think there's a lot of personal i think there's a lot of personal factors that go into that around what factors that go into that around what factors that go into that around what your threshold is for your threshold is for your threshold is for for risk and what does your day job look for risk and what does your day job look for risk and what does your day job look like right i mean that was a big factor like right i mean that was a big factor like right i mean that was a big factor for me of for me of for me of um you know at any time i can jump back um you know at any time i can jump back um you know at any time i can jump back into coaching and teaching into coaching and teaching into coaching and teaching and helping helping agile teams and so i and helping helping agile teams and so i and helping helping agile teams and so i think think think you also have to weigh what the climate you also have to weigh what the climate you also have to weigh what the climate looks like for the industry that you're looks like for the industry that you're looks like for the industry that you're in so that if you need to in so that if you need to in so that if you need to if you need to go back that option's on if you need to go back that option's on if you need to go back that option's on the table the table the table yeah i think that's a good way to think yeah i think that's a good way to think yeah i think that's a good way to think about it i mean i think the about it i mean i think the about it i mean i think the there's probably three or four cases there's probably three or four cases there's probably three or four cases where i think of people leaving where i think of people leaving where i think of people leaving or the road to leaving the day job one or the road to leaving the day job one or the road to leaving the day job one is and i know is and i know is and i know i have friends and colleagues who've i have friends and colleagues who've i have friends and colleagues who've done exactly these one is you save up done exactly these one is you save up done exactly these one is you save up enough money that you don't need to enough money that you don't need to enough money that you don't need to work for 18 months and then you try to work for 18 months and then you try to work for 18 months and then you try to do it and that's a little scary and most

do it and that's a little scary and most do it and that's a little scary and most people can't do it but that's one way people can't do it but that's one way people can't do it but that's one way another is to raise a small amount of another is to raise a small amount of another is to raise a small amount of funding to cover yourself for the 12 to funding to cover yourself for the 12 to funding to cover yourself for the 12 to 18 months 18 months 18 months another is to spare step your way up and another is to spare step your way up and another is to spare step your way up and either use either use either use products other products or use products other products or use products other products or use consulting to kind of transition that consulting to kind of transition that consulting to kind of transition that and the fourth one really is to have a and the fourth one really is to have a and the fourth one really is to have a partner you know a supportive partner partner you know a supportive partner partner you know a supportive partner who's kind of willing to support you who's kind of willing to support you who's kind of willing to support you doing that so it's figuring out other doing that so it's figuring out other doing that so it's figuring out other streams of revenue streams of revenue streams of revenue um to do it and then knowing your own um to do it and then knowing your own um to do it and then knowing your own you know some people are willing you know some people are willing you know some people are willing the story of like customer.io they had the story of like customer.io they had the story of like customer.io they had almost no revenue and they like both almost no revenue and they like both almost no revenue and they like both quit their day jobs and that would freak quit their day jobs and that would freak quit their day jobs and that would freak me the hell out like i didn't do i mean me the hell out like i didn't do i mean me the hell out like i didn't do i mean i had i had i had eight grand a month coming in before i eight grand a month coming in before i eight grand a month coming in before i quit my day job and it was enough to quit my day job and it was enough to quit my day job and it was enough to cover the mortgage and all the stuff and cover the mortgage and all the stuff and cover the mortgage and all the stuff and that i think it just depends on maybe that i think it just depends on maybe that i think it just depends on maybe risk tolerance risk tolerance risk tolerance you know yeah and i think that's you know yeah and i think that's you know yeah and i think that's compounded right when it's a husband and compounded right when it's a husband and compounded right when it's a husband and wife wife wife um founder situation because it's like um founder situation because it's like um founder situation because it's like if this fails we're both out of a job so if this fails we're both out of a job so if this fails we're both out of a job so there's some interesting pressure added there's some interesting pressure added there's some interesting pressure added but but but absolutely all right another question absolutely all right another question absolutely all right another question from george i nikolev he says from george i nikolev he says from george i nikolev he says what was this is a tough one actually what was this is a tough one actually what was this is a tough one actually i'm curious to hear you take what was i'm curious to hear you take what was i'm curious to hear you take what was the key to nailing down the key to nailing down the key to nailing down product market fit for you um product market fit for you um product market fit for you um honestly listening you know i think this honestly listening you know i think this honestly listening you know i think this is i think one of the things that's been is i think one of the things that's been is i think one of the things that's been kind of challenging kind of challenging kind of challenging in in building this product is i am in in building this product is i am in in building this product is i am super close to the users and super i super close to the users and super i super close to the users and super i am the demographic right that we're am the demographic right that we're am the demographic right that we're sewing to so i get excited sewing to so i get excited sewing to so i get excited and i get all these ideas about things and i get all these ideas about things and i get all these ideas about things that i want to build and that i want to that i want to build and that i want to that i want to build and that i want to do and that i want to see do and that i want to see do and that i want to see um and i think when we go down that path um and i think when we go down that path um and i think when we go down that path often especially you know i get excited often especially you know i get excited often especially you know i get excited about the features my husband gets about the features my husband gets about the features my husband gets excited about the technology and starts

excited about the technology and starts excited about the technology and starts building all these things and building all these things and building all these things and you know it takes us then we end up with you know it takes us then we end up with you know it takes us then we end up with like a six month release which is like a six month release which is like a six month release which is not really very agile when you think not really very agile when you think not really very agile when you think about it it's not what we coach other about it it's not what we coach other about it it's not what we coach other people to do people to do people to do um we build these huge releases that um we build these huge releases that um we build these huge releases that take forever to get out the door take forever to get out the door take forever to get out the door and we're doing you know a hail mary and we're doing you know a hail mary and we're doing you know a hail mary once we put those out to find out if once we put those out to find out if once we put those out to find out if it's it's it's stuff that people like um and honestly stuff that people like um and honestly stuff that people like um and honestly like production is the most expensive like production is the most expensive like production is the most expensive place you can test out an idea place you can test out an idea place you can test out an idea so one of the things that i think has so one of the things that i think has so one of the things that i think has really helped us is not building so much really helped us is not building so much really helped us is not building so much stuff until people ask for it and that stuff until people ask for it and that stuff until people ask for it and that that enterprise deal that we got at the that enterprise deal that we got at the that enterprise deal that we got at the beginning of 2019 really beginning of 2019 really beginning of 2019 really set us up for that we had to shelve a set us up for that we had to shelve a set us up for that we had to shelve a bunch of stuff that we were excited to bunch of stuff that we were excited to bunch of stuff that we were excited to build build build and listen to what they wanted us to add and listen to what they wanted us to add and listen to what they wanted us to add to the tool in order to support a 2000 to the tool in order to support a 2000 to the tool in order to support a 2000 person organization and that you know it person organization and that you know it person organization and that you know it kind of changed things for us and also kind of changed things for us and also kind of changed things for us and also helped us going forward with other helped us going forward with other helped us going forward with other contracts so now when we go to the table contracts so now when we go to the table contracts so now when we go to the table and start to work with these large and start to work with these large and start to work with these large enterprises one of the first things we enterprises one of the first things we enterprises one of the first things we ask is ask is ask is are there things that aren't in the tool are there things that aren't in the tool are there things that aren't in the tool that you're interested in having added that you're interested in having added that you're interested in having added to the tool to the tool to the tool and even if it's you know we've had we and even if it's you know we've had we and even if it's you know we've had we have a recent one that was a laundry have a recent one that was a laundry have a recent one that was a laundry list of stuff list of stuff list of stuff and when we came to them with a price to and when we came to them with a price to and when we came to them with a price to add it all they said just add this one add it all they said just add this one add it all they said just add this one thing thing thing um but now we have a you know we have a um but now we have a you know we have a um but now we have a you know we have a whole backlog of other things they'd whole backlog of other things they'd whole backlog of other things they'd like to see added that are probably like to see added that are probably like to see added that are probably things other organizations want added to things other organizations want added to things other organizations want added to so a big part of it i think has just so a big part of it i think has just so a big part of it i think has just been been been listening like finding who who's our listening like finding who who's our listening like finding who who's our optimal customer optimal customer optimal customer and listening to their needs yep very and listening to their needs yep very and listening to their needs yep very nice nice nice all right a reminder to folks in uh all right a reminder to folks in uh all right a reminder to folks in uh in remote um click the question button

in remote um click the question button in remote um click the question button and submit your own question if you have and submit your own question if you have and submit your own question if you have any questions for colleen we have uh any questions for colleen we have uh any questions for colleen we have uh almost another five minutes to go i have almost another five minutes to go i have almost another five minutes to go i have another question um this one from jack another question um this one from jack another question um this one from jack dempsey how have you navigated the dempsey how have you navigated the dempsey how have you navigated the challenges of being married to your challenges of being married to your challenges of being married to your co-founder co-founder co-founder any tactic strategies or principle to any tactic strategies or principle to any tactic strategies or principle to help principals to help make this work help principals to help make this work help principals to help make this work well lots more coors light clearly we're well lots more coors light clearly we're well lots more coors light clearly we're in colorado in colorado in colorado so that helps um no so that helps um no so that helps um no in all honesty i think some of the in all honesty i think some of the in all honesty i think some of the things that we've really figured out things that we've really figured out things that we've really figured out help us help us help us are things that i think would help any are things that i think would help any are things that i think would help any co-found like co-founders we try to co-found like co-founders we try to co-found like co-founders we try to um we use jira for our work we have a um we use jira for our work we have a um we use jira for our work we have a kanban board where we track kanban board where we track kanban board where we track priorities we use that with our priorities we use that with our priorities we use that with our contractors contractors contractors whether it's marketing folks now or dev whether it's marketing folks now or dev whether it's marketing folks now or dev folks um folks um folks um we try to communicate in slack a lot we try to communicate in slack a lot we try to communicate in slack a lot even though we're sitting usually even though we're sitting usually even though we're sitting usually two feet apart from each other so we use two feet apart from each other so we use two feet apart from each other so we use slack for everything so that we can see slack for everything so that we can see slack for everything so that we can see what each other's what each other's what each other's communicating especially when it's like communicating especially when it's like communicating especially when it's like third-party contractors so that third-party contractors so that third-party contractors so that i know if he's told the developer you i know if he's told the developer you i know if he's told the developer you don't have to build this thing don't have to build this thing don't have to build this thing um that way i don't yell at them later um that way i don't yell at them later um that way i don't yell at them later and then we also block off times we and then we also block off times we and then we also block off times we block off different times during the block off different times during the block off different times during the week where we either look at the backlog week where we either look at the backlog week where we either look at the backlog together we look at our metrics together together we look at our metrics together together we look at our metrics together um because i think um because i think um because i think it can be like we both get like i said it can be like we both get like i said it can be like we both get like i said we both get excited about the things we both get excited about the things we both get excited about the things that we're passionate about that we're passionate about that we're passionate about and kind of go down different paths and and kind of go down different paths and and kind of go down different paths and we've we've had that bite us in the ass we've we've had that bite us in the ass we've we've had that bite us in the ass before where we're both going so far before where we're both going so far before where we're both going so far away from what each other's working on away from what each other's working on away from what each other's working on because we assume we're because we assume we're because we assume we're go you know we assume because we're in go you know we assume because we're in go you know we assume because we're in the same house we're going down the same the same house we're going down the same the same house we're going down the same road and and we're not road and and we're not road and and we're not and so we try to um going into this year

and so we try to um going into this year and so we try to um going into this year set up some more regular check-ins where set up some more regular check-ins where set up some more regular check-ins where we're making sure that we're working we're making sure that we're working we're making sure that we're working together on the same things and our together on the same things and our together on the same things and our priorities are lining up priorities are lining up priorities are lining up um and that the kids aren't there we um and that the kids aren't there we um and that the kids aren't there we have three kids have three kids have three kids so it's it's chaos here right now with so it's it's chaos here right now with so it's it's chaos here right now with kids being home from school and kids being home from school and kids being home from school and daycare's being closed so um it's i daycare's being closed so um it's i daycare's being closed so um it's i think that makes it even more important think that makes it even more important think that makes it even more important to carve out specific time to take care to carve out specific time to take care to carve out specific time to take care of those tasks on a regular of those tasks on a regular of those tasks on a regular basis sounds like lots of communication basis sounds like lots of communication basis sounds like lots of communication yeah we have a question from hector de yeah we have a question from hector de yeah we have a question from hector de pereira and he says pereira and he says pereira and he says how do you decide to target small how do you decide to target small how do you decide to target small business small and medium-sized business small and medium-sized business small and medium-sized businesses businesses businesses versus big corporations as a versus big corporations as a versus big corporations as a bootstrapped company bootstrapped company bootstrapped company in your experience which are the pros in your experience which are the pros in your experience which are the pros and cons and cons and cons of each um so for us i think of each um so for us i think of each um so for us i think we still target those small small to we still target those small small to we still target those small small to medium businesses medium businesses medium businesses and we we have a lot of them using the and we we have a lot of them using the and we we have a lot of them using the tool now and i would say a lot of those tool now and i would say a lot of those tool now and i would say a lot of those kind of tend to sit in the like 100 user kind of tend to sit in the like 100 user kind of tend to sit in the like 100 user seat seat seat type of bucket um the organization might type of bucket um the organization might type of bucket um the organization might be bigger but be bigger but be bigger but it tends to be like 100 licenses that it tends to be like 100 licenses that it tends to be like 100 licenses that they're looking for um and they're they're looking for um and they're they're looking for um and they're awesome to work with we get a ton of awesome to work with we get a ton of awesome to work with we get a ton of feedback from them i think you know feedback from them i think you know feedback from them i think you know we're getting to the point now where we're getting to the point now where we're getting to the point now where we've got a few small we've got a few small we've got a few small small medium sized businesses where we small medium sized businesses where we small medium sized businesses where we can kind of experiment with them can kind of experiment with them can kind of experiment with them so like we're we're pushing out a beta so like we're we're pushing out a beta so like we're we're pushing out a beta version of a canvas board that's more version of a canvas board that's more version of a canvas board that's more like a whiteboard like a whiteboard like a whiteboard um where you can post things and they're um where you can post things and they're um where you can post things and they're not in columns not in columns not in columns and it'll still pull all that you know and it'll still pull all that you know and it'll still pull all that you know pull all of that back into our analytics pull all of that back into our analytics pull all of that back into our analytics and and and um we can push that now out to some of um we can push that now out to some of um we can push that now out to some of these smaller businesses and and test it these smaller businesses and and test it these smaller businesses and and test it with them with them with them and get feedback from them and that's a

and get feedback from them and that's a and get feedback from them and that's a cool relationship to have that i think cool relationship to have that i think cool relationship to have that i think would be a little harder to do would be a little harder to do would be a little harder to do when there's two that you know 2000 when there's two that you know 2000 when there's two that you know 2000 users um but for us users um but for us users um but for us you know a lot of uh and and they tend you know a lot of uh and and they tend you know a lot of uh and and they tend to onboard quicker i would say that's to onboard quicker i would say that's to onboard quicker i would say that's the other piece with small to medium the other piece with small to medium the other piece with small to medium business business business businesses is it's pretty self-service businesses is it's pretty self-service businesses is it's pretty self-service they can kick that off there's not a they can kick that off there's not a they can kick that off there's not a long contract long contract long contract so we love that part of it it's kind of so we love that part of it it's kind of so we love that part of it it's kind of instant revenue instant revenue instant revenue enterprises tend to take a long time i enterprises tend to take a long time i enterprises tend to take a long time i mean these can be like up to six months mean these can be like up to six months mean these can be like up to six months of of of back and forth legal security reviews um back and forth legal security reviews um back and forth legal security reviews um but once we do finally close those i but once we do finally close those i but once we do finally close those i mean it like mean it like mean it like like i said it'll two enterprise deals like i said it'll two enterprise deals like i said it'll two enterprise deals doubles our mmr where we're at right now doubles our mmr where we're at right now doubles our mmr where we're at right now so um i think that's the other part so um i think that's the other part so um i think that's the other part that's kind of you know from a that's kind of you know from a that's kind of you know from a from a focused perspective we want to from a focused perspective we want to from a focused perspective we want to keep focusing on these enterprise deals keep focusing on these enterprise deals keep focusing on these enterprise deals because they're because they're because they're they're a lot more lucrative and then they're a lot more lucrative and then they're a lot more lucrative and then they're usually a year-long contract if they're usually a year-long contract if they're usually a year-long contract if not not not three so that tends to be another piece three so that tends to be another piece three so that tends to be another piece that these big companies want to buy a that these big companies want to buy a that these big companies want to buy a tool for tool for tool for for like a three year minimum um so once for like a three year minimum um so once for like a three year minimum um so once we go through the long road to get there we go through the long road to get there we go through the long road to get there we're really locked into that revenue we're really locked into that revenue we're really locked into that revenue for for for a decent amount of time yeah i think a decent amount of time yeah i think a decent amount of time yeah i think that's good perspective i mean that's good perspective i mean that's good perspective i mean the sales cycles are really long with the sales cycles are really long with the sales cycles are really long with enterprise but man the churn is just enterprise but man the churn is just enterprise but man the churn is just they don't want to change unless there's they don't want to change unless there's they don't want to change unless there's a real problem they sign these long a real problem they sign these long a real problem they sign these long contracts contracts contracts and there's this other thing i'll say and there's this other thing i'll say and there's this other thing i'll say versus going after versus going after versus going after small medium versus enterprise is if you small medium versus enterprise is if you small medium versus enterprise is if you can build a business that actually can build a business that actually can build a business that actually has a i call it a dual funnel where you has a i call it a dual funnel where you has a i call it a dual funnel where you have people coming in paying a low price have people coming in paying a low price have people coming in paying a low price and high volume and you can build it and high volume and you can build it and high volume and you can build it like a nice brand but then you also have like a nice brand but then you also have like a nice brand but then you also have the enterprises coming in the enterprises coming in the enterprises coming in that's an amazing business those are the

that's an amazing business those are the that's an amazing business those are the ones i see growing the fastest so drip ones i see growing the fastest so drip ones i see growing the fastest so drip was like that where we had a 50 was like that where we had a 50 was like that where we had a 50 starter plan but we had people coming starter plan but we had people coming starter plan but we had people coming and paying us a thousand dollars a month and paying us a thousand dollars a month and paying us a thousand dollars a month when they had a huge when they had a huge when they had a huge list uh squad cast who we'll hear from a list uh squad cast who we'll hear from a list uh squad cast who we'll hear from a little later little later little later you know it's podcast recording and they you know it's podcast recording and they you know it's podcast recording and they of course have the fly fisherman of course have the fly fisherman of course have the fly fisherman who's paying them 15 a month and then who's paying them 15 a month and then who's paying them 15 a month and then you might have a huge you know uh you might have a huge you know uh you might have a huge you know uh you can imagine like a podcast network you can imagine like a podcast network you can imagine like a podcast network coming in and paying them thousands a coming in and paying them thousands a coming in and paying them thousands a month month month those funnels are really quite amazing those funnels are really quite amazing those funnels are really quite amazing so so so all right colleen thank you so much all right colleen thank you so much all right colleen thank you so much we're at time i really appreciate you we're at time i really appreciate you we're at time i really appreciate you coming on to microcomp remote today coming on to microcomp remote today coming on to microcomp remote today yeah thanks for having me this was great hey everyone i am meryl johnston and hey everyone i am meryl johnston and here today to talk about business here today to talk about business here today to talk about business finances and specifically finances and specifically finances and specifically how to become a financially savvy sas how to become a financially savvy sas how to become a financially savvy sas founder i always like to ask founder i always like to ask founder i always like to ask why should i listen to someone on a why should i listen to someone on a why should i listen to someone on a particular topic particular topic particular topic and here's a little bit about me i come and here's a little bit about me i come and here's a little bit about me i come at business finances at business finances at business finances from both an accounting perspective i'm from both an accounting perspective i'm from both an accounting perspective i'm a trained accountant a trained accountant a trained accountant a child accountant which is like a cpa a child accountant which is like a cpa a child accountant which is like a cpa in the us but i'm also a founder in the us but i'm also a founder in the us but i'm also a founder and i've scaled my business binges and i've scaled my business binges and i've scaled my business binges up to a team of 15 people over the last up to a team of 15 people over the last up to a team of 15 people over the last five years five years five years i realized this is a virtual event i i realized this is a virtual event i i realized this is a virtual event i i add a couple of extra things about me i add a couple of extra things about me i add a couple of extra things about me particularly when it's an in-person particularly when it's an in-person particularly when it's an in-person event and then we can connect and chat event and then we can connect and chat event and then we can connect and chat over something that might not be over something that might not be over something that might not be accounting related and maybe it's accounting related and maybe it's accounting related and maybe it's surfing or parenting or something

surfing or parenting or something surfing or parenting or something different so feel free to connect with different so feel free to connect with different so feel free to connect with me afterwards and to have a chat about me afterwards and to have a chat about me afterwards and to have a chat about either this topic either this topic either this topic or something else that about this that or something else that about this that or something else that about this that is is is that you're interested in the way that i thought we'd frame this the way that i thought we'd frame this is to look at is to look at is to look at four different stages of business of four different stages of business of four different stages of business of particularly related to sas particularly related to sas particularly related to sas and look at what the financial and look at what the financial and look at what the financial challenges are related to these challenges are related to these challenges are related to these millionaire mary we're going to leave millionaire mary we're going to leave millionaire mary we're going to leave for today the financial challenges that for today the financial challenges that for today the financial challenges that i would normally talk about there i would normally talk about there i would normally talk about there are related to preparing business for are related to preparing business for are related to preparing business for exit and instead we're going to focus exit and instead we're going to focus exit and instead we're going to focus on ceo carl who is building a leadership on ceo carl who is building a leadership on ceo carl who is building a leadership team team team and really in the process of scaling and and really in the process of scaling and and really in the process of scaling and he's ready to be adopting best practices he's ready to be adopting best practices he's ready to be adopting best practices when it comes to when it comes to when it comes to the finance function in his business but the finance function in his business but the finance function in his business but we're also going to have a look at we're also going to have a look at we're also going to have a look at hustling hector hustling hector hustling hector and stressed out susie who are a bit and stressed out susie who are a bit and stressed out susie who are a bit earlier stage and look at earlier stage and look at earlier stage and look at what are some things that they could what are some things that they could what are some things that they could implement or take action on implement or take action on implement or take action on today that are going to help them build today that are going to help them build today that are going to help them build out this out this out this best practice finance function and also best practice finance function and also best practice finance function and also have a look at have a look at have a look at why would you even care about business why would you even care about business why would you even care about business finances in your business so senior carl he's been in business for so senior carl he's been in business for a while a while a while now and he's he's got a team and now and he's he's got a team and now and he's he's got a team and really trying to build out a leadership really trying to build out a leadership really trying to build out a leadership team so that you can take a bit more team so that you can take a bit more team so that you can take a bit more time away time away time away from business you can take a day off from business you can take a day off from business you can take a day off here and there

here and there here and there but it's still quite difficult for him but it's still quite difficult for him but it's still quite difficult for him to to to to take a week or two weeks or a month to take a week or two weeks or a month to take a week or two weeks or a month off and so he knows that he needs to get off and so he knows that he needs to get off and so he knows that he needs to get his financial house in order his financial house in order his financial house in order there's three main things that he needs there's three main things that he needs there's three main things that he needs to do in order to to do in order to to do in order to assist with that the first is assist with that the first is assist with that the first is making sure that there's a clear set of making sure that there's a clear set of making sure that there's a clear set of deliverables and a timeline deliverables and a timeline deliverables and a timeline so what actually needs to happen what so what actually needs to happen what so what actually needs to happen what are the deliverables or the results are the deliverables or the results are the deliverables or the results that we're aiming for and this would be that we're aiming for and this would be that we're aiming for and this would be similar that would be a marketing and similar that would be a marketing and similar that would be a marketing and sales function sales function sales function in the business as well and again it'd in the business as well and again it'd in the business as well and again it'd be a clear set of deliverables be a clear set of deliverables be a clear set of deliverables might be writing a blog post or whatever might be writing a blog post or whatever might be writing a blog post or whatever it is it is it is the next component of that is having the next component of that is having the next component of that is having documented sops documented sops documented sops so that it's really clear about how so that it's really clear about how so that it's really clear about how these things need to be done these things need to be done these things need to be done and that they can be done consistently and that they can be done consistently and that they can be done consistently and you've got backups in place and you've got backups in place and you've got backups in place if something's happened to different if something's happened to different if something's happened to different team members and then the last is team members and then the last is team members and then the last is looking at well looking at well looking at well what financial reports should you be what financial reports should you be what financial reports should you be looking at as a founder looking at as a founder looking at as a founder and how can you use dashboards and how can you use dashboards and how can you use dashboards right let's start off with the right let's start off with the right let's start off with the bookkeeping timetable and really here bookkeeping timetable and really here bookkeeping timetable and really here i'm interested in i'm interested in i'm interested in who needs to do what by when and the who needs to do what by when and the who needs to do what by when and the deliverable deliverable deliverable is typically month end reports that is typically month end reports that is typically month end reports that would include a profit and loss of would include a profit and loss of would include a profit and loss of income statement income statement income statement and a balance sheet and there's probably and a balance sheet and there's probably and a balance sheet and there's probably some other more specific some other more specific some other more specific reports that are customized to your reports that are customized to your reports that are customized to your business as well business as well business as well and in order to do that there's a number and in order to do that there's a number and in order to do that there's a number of steps that need to be completed of steps that need to be completed of steps that need to be completed before we can get to the reports so we

before we can get to the reports so we before we can get to the reports so we need to know what are the steps need to know what are the steps need to know what are the steps who needs to do them and and when they who needs to do them and and when they who needs to do them and and when they need to be completed by need to be completed by need to be completed by and the way i like to break it down is and the way i like to break it down is and the way i like to break it down is to look at well what are some of the to look at well what are some of the to look at well what are some of the monthly monthly monthly tasks okay in order to finalize in a tasks okay in order to finalize in a tasks okay in order to finalize in a month then month then month then there's a number of steps that we need there's a number of steps that we need there's a number of steps that we need to do you might pay to do you might pay to do you might pay your suppliers and your team fortnightly your suppliers and your team fortnightly your suppliers and your team fortnightly right so that's in the fortnightly right so that's in the fortnightly right so that's in the fortnightly category category category there might be some weekly tasks and there might be some weekly tasks and there might be some weekly tasks and then daily then daily then daily this is just a template you would adapt this is just a template you would adapt this is just a template you would adapt this to your business this to your business this to your business as i said what's really important here as i said what's really important here as i said what's really important here is getting clear on what the deliverable is getting clear on what the deliverable is getting clear on what the deliverable is and then who needs to do what by when is and then who needs to do what by when is and then who needs to do what by when in order to achieve it in order to achieve it in order to achieve it the next part of that is the how which the next part of that is the how which the next part of that is the how which is the standard operating procedures is the standard operating procedures is the standard operating procedures and due to time constraints i won't go and due to time constraints i won't go and due to time constraints i won't go into examples of standard operating into examples of standard operating into examples of standard operating procedures procedures procedures but the finance function is very similar but the finance function is very similar but the finance function is very similar to to to other areas of your business in that you other areas of your business in that you other areas of your business in that you would have a defined way would have a defined way would have a defined way of doing things whether it was a defined of doing things whether it was a defined of doing things whether it was a defined way of paying your suppliers way of paying your suppliers way of paying your suppliers a defined way of preparing your a defined way of preparing your a defined way of preparing your end-of-month reports end-of-month reports end-of-month reports to find way of chasing out customers if to find way of chasing out customers if to find way of chasing out customers if you're doing something like you're doing something like you're doing something like enterprise sales rather than having enterprise sales rather than having enterprise sales rather than having customers on customers on customers on direct debit or they're paying for direct debit or they're paying for direct debit or they're paying for implementations implementations implementations the next thing i wanted to talk about is the next thing i wanted to talk about is the next thing i wanted to talk about is having as a founder having as a founder having as a founder having access to metrics and some kind having access to metrics and some kind having access to metrics and some kind of weekly dashboard of weekly dashboard of weekly dashboard that really helps you keep a finger on that really helps you keep a finger on that really helps you keep a finger on the pulse typically the pulse typically the pulse typically even though we're aiming for monthly even though we're aiming for monthly even though we're aiming for monthly reports typically many founders that i reports typically many founders that i reports typically many founders that i speak with

speak with speak with and not actually getting reports on a and not actually getting reports on a and not actually getting reports on a timely basis timely basis timely basis which is making it hard for them to make which is making it hard for them to make which is making it hard for them to make decisions decisions decisions so on the one hand i encourage you to so on the one hand i encourage you to so on the one hand i encourage you to get your your bookkeeper or your get your your bookkeeper or your get your your bookkeeper or your accountant accountant accountant to get reports to you quickly within 10 to get reports to you quickly within 10 to get reports to you quickly within 10 business days after the end of each business days after the end of each business days after the end of each month month month but the other component of that is what but the other component of that is what but the other component of that is what metrics can you track on a regular basis metrics can you track on a regular basis metrics can you track on a regular basis to get a feel for what might lie ahead to get a feel for what might lie ahead to get a feel for what might lie ahead and these are metrics that i track and these are metrics that i track and these are metrics that i track this report i get this report on a this report i get this report on a this report i get this report on a weekly basis and that goes to my weekly basis and that goes to my weekly basis and that goes to my management team management team management team and this really helps us from a sales and this really helps us from a sales and this really helps us from a sales and marketing perspective we have an and marketing perspective we have an and marketing perspective we have an idea of the pipeline idea of the pipeline idea of the pipeline from a delivery perspective we can track from a delivery perspective we can track from a delivery perspective we can track how we're going how we're going how we're going and then also looking at onboarding and and then also looking at onboarding and and then also looking at onboarding and cash flow too cash flow too cash flow too so the metrics and the key drivers of so the metrics and the key drivers of so the metrics and the key drivers of your business will be different your business will be different your business will be different for example if you're offering free for example if you're offering free for example if you're offering free trials trials trials and then you've got an idea around and then you've got an idea around and then you've got an idea around conversion rate there conversion rate there conversion rate there you might be tracking how many new you might be tracking how many new you might be tracking how many new people signed up for a free trial people signed up for a free trial people signed up for a free trial or if you're doing enterprise sales then or if you're doing enterprise sales then or if you're doing enterprise sales then you might you might you might have a sales section that looks a bit have a sales section that looks a bit have a sales section that looks a bit like this where you know like this where you know like this where you know that typically 10 calls results in that typically 10 calls results in that typically 10 calls results in two customers or a certain dollar value two customers or a certain dollar value two customers or a certain dollar value of revenue of revenue of revenue and so this really gives you an idea of and so this really gives you an idea of and so this really gives you an idea of how you're tracking how you're tracking how you're tracking these dashboards can be they can be these dashboards can be they can be these dashboards can be they can be tracked in excel in google sheets i tracked in excel in google sheets i tracked in excel in google sheets i think that think that think that that's fine it's a good way to start out that's fine it's a good way to start out that's fine it's a good way to start out and there's also and there's also and there's also dashboarding tools where you can bring dashboarding tools where you can bring dashboarding tools where you can bring in data sources in data sources in data sources from multiple different platforms i

from multiple different platforms i from multiple different platforms i think brian think brian think brian who's also in this community has i hope who's also in this community has i hope who's also in this community has i hope i'm getting the name right here i think i'm getting the name right here i think i'm getting the name right here i think it's called sunrise kpi it's called sunrise kpi it's called sunrise kpi where you can track kpis as well so where you can track kpis as well so where you can track kpis as well so that's another option for you too that's another option for you too that's another option for you too the key steps in in this being the key steps in in this being the key steps in in this being meaningful or giving you meaningful meaningful or giving you meaningful meaningful or giving you meaningful information information information uh one actually figure out what metrics uh one actually figure out what metrics uh one actually figure out what metrics uh the drivers of your business and it uh the drivers of your business and it uh the drivers of your business and it may be different and then may be different and then may be different and then what's an effective way to track them what's an effective way to track them what's an effective way to track them and then three and then three and then three carving out time to look at the numbers carving out time to look at the numbers carving out time to look at the numbers coming to you now i wanted to go back a step so we've now i wanted to go back a step so we've looked at carl looked at carl looked at carl and really what a best practice finance and really what a best practice finance and really what a best practice finance function would look like function would look like function would look like where there's a really clear set of where there's a really clear set of where there's a really clear set of deliverables everyone's clear on who deliverables everyone's clear on who deliverables everyone's clear on who needs to do what by when needs to do what by when needs to do what by when the how is documented in sops the how is documented in sops the how is documented in sops and then there's financial reports and then there's financial reports and then there's financial reports coming in within coming in within coming in within 10 days after the end of each month and 10 days after the end of each month and 10 days after the end of each month and there's a dashboard there's a dashboard there's a dashboard that's being looked at on a weekly basis that's being looked at on a weekly basis that's being looked at on a weekly basis with the king metrics of the business with the king metrics of the business with the king metrics of the business that's where we're aiming for but if that's where we're aiming for but if that's where we're aiming for but if you're just starting out you're just starting out you're just starting out you're probably not at that point yet you're probably not at that point yet you're probably not at that point yet and actually you and actually you and actually you probably should be focused on other probably should be focused on other probably should be focused on other things like making sales and trying to things like making sales and trying to things like making sales and trying to increase increase increase mrr monthly recurring revenue but there mrr monthly recurring revenue but there mrr monthly recurring revenue but there definitely are some simple things that definitely are some simple things that definitely are some simple things that you can do today you can do today you can do today to help with the financial side of your to help with the financial side of your to help with the financial side of your business business business if you're hustling hectares just if you're hustling hectares just if you're hustling hectares just starting out don't have any employees starting out don't have any employees starting out don't have any employees yet you've got some freelancers that are yet you've got some freelancers that are yet you've got some freelancers that are helping to build your product helping to build your product helping to build your product some of the things that you can do uh to

some of the things that you can do uh to some of the things that you can do uh to implement client accounting software implement client accounting software implement client accounting software i use xero then there's other tools like i use xero then there's other tools like i use xero then there's other tools like quickbooks quickbooks quickbooks out there what's important here is that out there what's important here is that out there what's important here is that it connects to your bank account it connects to your bank account it connects to your bank account and also has the ability to connect to and also has the ability to connect to and also has the ability to connect to other apps other apps other apps or add-ons too so that you're reducing or add-ons too so that you're reducing or add-ons too so that you're reducing the amount of data entry required and the amount of data entry required and the amount of data entry required and eliminating risk of errors eliminating risk of errors eliminating risk of errors so having xero setup really helps but so having xero setup really helps but so having xero setup really helps but also being disciplined with also being disciplined with also being disciplined with firstly setting up business bank firstly setting up business bank firstly setting up business bank accounts and then using them only for accounts and then using them only for accounts and then using them only for business purposes business purposes business purposes personal bank accounts for personal personal bank accounts for personal personal bank accounts for personal business bank accounts for business business bank accounts for business business bank accounts for business and it sounds quite simple but i often and it sounds quite simple but i often and it sounds quite simple but i often this is this is this is often where i see a bit of a mess when often where i see a bit of a mess when often where i see a bit of a mess when people are just getting started people are just getting started people are just getting started with building their finance function and with building their finance function and with building their finance function and then the third then the third then the third receipt management again it sounds receipt management again it sounds receipt management again it sounds simple and it should be simple but again simple and it should be simple but again simple and it should be simple but again something that typically isn't done well something that typically isn't done well something that typically isn't done well particularly by founders in their first particularly by founders in their first particularly by founders in their first couple of years couple of years couple of years just pick a receipt management process just pick a receipt management process just pick a receipt management process and stick to it and stick to it and stick to it you might pick dropbox or google drive you might pick dropbox or google drive you might pick dropbox or google drive it might be an email but something it might be an email but something it might be an email but something all of your receipts should be going to all of your receipts should be going to all of your receipts should be going to one location one location one location typically travel costs are handled typically travel costs are handled typically travel costs are handled poorly poorly poorly we're doing less of that at the moment we're doing less of that at the moment we're doing less of that at the moment so if you've got physical receipts so if you've got physical receipts so if you've got physical receipts from buying meals out hotels things like from buying meals out hotels things like from buying meals out hotels things like that that that take photographs and then save them to take photographs and then save them to take photographs and then save them to whatever system that you're using whatever system that you're using whatever system that you're using and that will save you a lot of headache and that will save you a lot of headache and that will save you a lot of headache at tax time

at tax time at tax time trust not susie sorry stressed out sofia trust not susie sorry stressed out sofia trust not susie sorry stressed out sofia is is is she's a little bit further along than she's a little bit further along than she's a little bit further along than hector she's hector she's hector she's starting to transition her team of starting to transition her team of starting to transition her team of freelancers freelancers freelancers into a team of employees she's scaling into a team of employees she's scaling into a team of employees she's scaling up the businesses up the businesses up the businesses growing she's got more customers and growing she's got more customers and growing she's got more customers and really for her really for her really for her the main issue is around cash flow the main issue is around cash flow the main issue is around cash flow there's more pressure on her there's more pressure on her there's more pressure on her to make sure that there's enough money to make sure that there's enough money to make sure that there's enough money to pay her employees to pay her employees to pay her employees some of the things that she can do some of the things that she can do some of the things that she can do assuming that she's already put in place assuming that she's already put in place assuming that she's already put in place the the three points that we talked the the three points that we talked the the three points that we talked about with hector which we're about with hector which we're about with hector which we're getting zero or other cloud accounting getting zero or other cloud accounting getting zero or other cloud accounting software using business bank accounts software using business bank accounts software using business bank accounts and receipt management so she's got all and receipt management so she's got all and receipt management so she's got all of that happening of that happening of that happening really she should then be able to review really she should then be able to review really she should then be able to review a set of reports the profit and loss and a set of reports the profit and loss and a set of reports the profit and loss and balance sheet at a minimum balance sheet at a minimum balance sheet at a minimum every month and she should be able to every month and she should be able to every month and she should be able to have those reports come out of something have those reports come out of something have those reports come out of something like xero like xero like xero and either work with a bookkeeper or an and either work with a bookkeeper or an and either work with a bookkeeper or an accountant or someone accountant or someone accountant or someone in-house or maybe it's as her to in-house or maybe it's as her to in-house or maybe it's as her to to check those numbers and make sure to check those numbers and make sure to check those numbers and make sure that they're accurate the last thing you that they're accurate the last thing you that they're accurate the last thing you want to do is want to do is want to do is make decisions based on what you saw in make decisions based on what you saw in make decisions based on what you saw in your financial statements your financial statements your financial statements and for them to have not been accurate and for them to have not been accurate and for them to have not been accurate and there's checks and balances that you and there's checks and balances that you and there's checks and balances that you can do and can do and can do and my second dot point here around my second dot point here around my second dot point here around financial literacy skills financial literacy skills financial literacy skills also really helps and i think every also really helps and i think every also really helps and i think every founder should have a baseline level founder should have a baseline level founder should have a baseline level of finance skills some knowledge of of finance skills some knowledge of of finance skills some knowledge of accounting and bookkeeping and some accounting and bookkeeping and some accounting and bookkeeping and some knowledge of knowledge of knowledge of taxes as it applies to the country and taxes as it applies to the country and taxes as it applies to the country and the location

the location the location that you're in and there's books you can that you're in and there's books you can that you're in and there's books you can read courses that you can do read courses that you can do read courses that you can do and i think every founder should invest and i think every founder should invest and i think every founder should invest in building some of these skills in building some of these skills in building some of these skills and enough to know that when you are and enough to know that when you are and enough to know that when you are hiring an accountant or bookkeeper hiring an accountant or bookkeeper hiring an accountant or bookkeeper you can ask the right questions and you you can ask the right questions and you you can ask the right questions and you can know that they're doing can know that they're doing can know that they're doing a good job and also it gives you a good job and also it gives you a good job and also it gives you confidence in confidence in confidence in when you're reviewing financial reports when you're reviewing financial reports when you're reviewing financial reports that you can use that information to that you can use that information to that you can use that information to make make make good decisions not rely on other advices so if we do a little bit of a recap we so if we do a little bit of a recap we spent most of today talking about spent most of today talking about spent most of today talking about ceo kyle and what a best practice ceo kyle and what a best practice ceo kyle and what a best practice finance function finance function finance function looks like and the reason i wanted to do looks like and the reason i wanted to do looks like and the reason i wanted to do that was to paint the picture that was to paint the picture that was to paint the picture of as your business where when your of as your business where when your of as your business where when your business scales up business scales up business scales up what it can and should look like so what it can and should look like so what it can and should look like so something painful something painful something painful but i also wanted to talk about some but i also wanted to talk about some but i also wanted to talk about some earlier stages of business and we talked earlier stages of business and we talked earlier stages of business and we talked about hustling hector about hustling hector about hustling hector and stressed out sofia who were at the and stressed out sofia who were at the and stressed out sofia who were at the early stages early stages early stages of their entrepreneurial journey and of their entrepreneurial journey and of their entrepreneurial journey and some of the things more simple things some of the things more simple things some of the things more simple things that they could implement today that they could implement today that they could implement today to really help them on that path to to really help them on that path to to really help them on that path to where ceo carl where ceo carl where ceo carl is that's it from me is that's it from me is that's it from me i'd love to connect i'm definitely more i'd love to connect i'm definitely more i'd love to connect i'm definitely more active on linkedin than i am on twitter active on linkedin than i am on twitter active on linkedin than i am on twitter but here are the the options if you but here are the the options if you but here are the the options if you would like to connect

mr martin how you doing sir very well mr martin how you doing sir very well happy to be here happy to be here happy to be here this is andy martin he has over 10 years this is andy martin he has over 10 years this is andy martin he has over 10 years of technical and management experience of technical and management experience of technical and management experience in building in building in building designing and constructing control designing and constructing control designing and constructing control systems systems systems and project management most of that was and project management most of that was and project management most of that was a mouthful most of which were with a mouthful most of which were with a mouthful most of which were with mission critical facilities like data mission critical facilities like data mission critical facilities like data centers and hospitals centers and hospitals centers and hospitals he holds a masters of science in he holds a masters of science in he holds a masters of science in software engineering from the university software engineering from the university software engineering from the university of st of st of st thomas in st paul which of course is why thomas in st paul which of course is why thomas in st paul which of course is why he could join me here today because he's he could join me here today because he's he could join me here today because he's local to the cities and you will know local to the cities and you will know local to the cities and you will know that we are properly socially distancing that we are properly socially distancing that we are properly socially distancing even though it looks even though it looks even though it looks like we're far away um he has had full like we're far away um he has had full like we're far away um he has had full responsibility for responsibility for responsibility for tons of scopes of work including p tons of scopes of work including p tons of scopes of work including p l on many multi-million dollar complex l on many multi-million dollar complex l on many multi-million dollar complex contracts contracts contracts like data centers hospitals and even an like data centers hospitals and even an like data centers hospitals and even an nfl stadium nfl stadium nfl stadium and i can guess which one that is i and i can guess which one that is i and i can guess which one that is i think take a wild guess you'll probably think take a wild guess you'll probably think take a wild guess you'll probably be playing be playing be playing you can't tell anyone but you know we you can't tell anyone but you know we you can't tell anyone but you know we live here at uh where the vikings play live here at uh where the vikings play live here at uh where the vikings play so andy is the president founder of blue so andy is the president founder of blue so andy is the president founder of blue rhythm which is rhythm which is rhythm which is sas focused on streamlining mission sas focused on streamlining mission sas focused on streamlining mission critical and commercial critical and commercial critical and commercial commissioning efforts and so people who commissioning efforts and so people who commissioning efforts and so people who have no idea what that is have no idea what that is have no idea what that is i'm going to talk a little bit so i was i'm going to talk a little bit so i was i'm going to talk a little bit so i was a an electrician a an electrician a an electrician for just like the blink of an eye before for just like the blink of an eye before for just like the blink of an eye before i decided i wanted to go write code for i decided i wanted to go write code for i decided i wanted to go write code for a living a living a living and i remember on one of these things so and i remember on one of these things so and i remember on one of these things so we were installing pipe and running wire we were installing pipe and running wire we were installing pipe and running wire and i remember we built a big data and i remember we built a big data and i remember we built a big data center in the and i say we i was like an center in the and i say we i was like an center in the and i say we i was like an apprentice right but we built a big data apprentice right but we built a big data apprentice right but we built a big data center in the bay area center in the bay area center in the bay area and i had to carry around this clipboard and i had to carry around this clipboard and i had to carry around this clipboard and had to follow an engineer around and and had to follow an engineer around and and had to follow an engineer around and it was a big it was a big it was a big checklist of all this stuff as they checklist of all this stuff as they checklist of all this stuff as they would turn on the the uninterruptable would turn on the the uninterruptable would turn on the the uninterruptable power supplies the ups's power supplies the ups's power supplies the ups's and then they would turn the generator and then they would turn the generator and then they would turn the generator on they'd make sure that the failsafe on they'd make sure that the failsafe on they'd make sure that the failsafe tripped and there was an automatic tripped and there was an automatic tripped and there was an automatic switch breaker and blah blah blah and

switch breaker and blah blah blah and switch breaker and blah blah blah and you had to test you had to test you had to test all this crap because once it's live and all this crap because once it's live and all this crap because once it's live and you have a thousand servers in there it you have a thousand servers in there it you have a thousand servers in there it can't break can't break can't break right and so that's commissioning and right and so that's commissioning and right and so that's commissioning and that's what blue rhythm does that's what blue rhythm does that's what blue rhythm does is it takes that clipboard or the five is it takes that clipboard or the five is it takes that clipboard or the five clipboards that we used to carry around clipboards that we used to carry around clipboards that we used to carry around and all the paper and all the paper and all the paper we then had to fax to people right we then had to fax to people right we then had to fax to people right that's how old i am and it puts it into that's how old i am and it puts it into that's how old i am and it puts it into sas sas sas exactly that's the idea exactly yeah exactly that's the idea exactly yeah exactly that's the idea exactly yeah it's just a it's a project management it's just a it's a project management it's just a it's a project management tool for that specific tool for that specific tool for that specific situation so you know if you're the situation so you know if you're the situation so you know if you're the person building the data center you person building the data center you person building the data center you might hire might hire might hire somebody who's one of our customers and somebody who's one of our customers and somebody who's one of our customers and our customers will take our software and our customers will take our software and our customers will take our software and they'll go through their checklist they'll go through their checklist they'll go through their checklist it'll create the reports for them and it'll create the reports for them and it'll create the reports for them and just really kind of automate everything just really kind of automate everything just really kind of automate everything right and i love it because it's such a right and i love it because it's such a right and i love it because it's such a niche right there's there's so much niche right there's there's so much niche right there's there's so much value and not value and not value and not you know you're not competing against you know you're not competing against you know you're not competing against whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know these other big players google like these other big players google like these other big players google like you've picked such a small slice that you've picked such a small slice that you've picked such a small slice that really really really you know microsoft's not going to come you know microsoft's not going to come you know microsoft's not going to come build commissioning software right you build commissioning software right you build commissioning software right you know or google or facebook like right know or google or facebook like right know or google or facebook like right you are in a place obviously you have you are in a place obviously you have you are in a place obviously you have big bigger competitors than you but big bigger competitors than you but big bigger competitors than you but um it's not something that they're going um it's not something that they're going um it's not something that they're going to come and attack and to come and attack and to come and attack and you i asked you about mrr um you're in you i asked you about mrr um you're in you i asked you about mrr um you're in your your your five-figure mrr which for folks who are five-figure mrr which for folks who are five-figure mrr which for folks who are counting it's that means 10 000 counting it's that means 10 000 counting it's that means 10 000 or more in mrr just to give you an idea or more in mrr just to give you an idea or more in mrr just to give you an idea of you know of where he lands of you know of where he lands of you know of where he lands um your yeah your minneapolis based i um your yeah your minneapolis based i um your yeah your minneapolis based i think we already mentioned that which is think we already mentioned that which is think we already mentioned that which is why we can hang out why we can hang out why we can hang out and really my first furious question for and really my first furious question for and really my first furious question for you is longboard or shortboard sir you is longboard or shortboard sir you is longboard or shortboard sir actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid that's uh that's kind of what i've grown that's uh that's kind of what i've grown that's uh that's kind of what i've grown up doing and up doing and up doing and actually did around this past weekend actually did around this past weekend actually did around this past weekend which i'm still feeling the effects which i'm still feeling the effects which i'm still feeling the effects though though though from yeah so a wakeboard you pull on the from yeah so a wakeboard you pull on the from yeah so a wakeboard you pull on the back of a boat right and you stand up on back of a boat right and you stand up on back of a boat right and you stand up on it so it's

it so it's it so it's it's as close as you can kind of get to it's as close as you can kind of get to it's as close as you can kind of get to surfing on this yeah exactly that's how surfing on this yeah exactly that's how surfing on this yeah exactly that's how you start from the midwest i guess you start from the midwest i guess you start from the midwest i guess 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide for a long board so for a long board so for a long board so obviously this was a pain point you know obviously this was a pain point you know obviously this was a pain point you know to build blue rhythm like the origin to build blue rhythm like the origin to build blue rhythm like the origin story story story since you were involved in this since you were involved in this since you were involved in this commissioning this was a pain point that commissioning this was a pain point that commissioning this was a pain point that you were experiencing you were experiencing you were experiencing but you weren't a developer i know you but you weren't a developer i know you but you weren't a developer i know you had toyed around with some stuff had toyed around with some stuff had toyed around with some stuff but like what made you think that you but like what made you think that you but like what made you think that you could build the prototype of blue rhythm could build the prototype of blue rhythm could build the prototype of blue rhythm not having ever built you know really not having ever built you know really not having ever built you know really built production code built production code built production code yeah so i guess i didn't know for sure yeah so i guess i didn't know for sure yeah so i guess i didn't know for sure that i could that i could that i could but i also didn't know that i couldn't but i also didn't know that i couldn't but i also didn't know that i couldn't so i really just wanted to try so i really just wanted to try so i really just wanted to try um so that's what i did i just kind of um so that's what i did i just kind of um so that's what i did i just kind of started tinkering at first and just kind started tinkering at first and just kind started tinkering at first and just kind of testing the waters i tested the mark of testing the waters i tested the mark of testing the waters i tested the mark a little bit i did some outreach a little bit i did some outreach a little bit i did some outreach um just put some feelers out and it just um just put some feelers out and it just um just put some feelers out and it just kept building and building and kept building and building and kept building and building and i got good response from people and i got good response from people and i got good response from people and decided to decided to decided to just keep at it yeah and so when you just keep at it yeah and so when you just keep at it yeah and so when you started building blue rhythm started building blue rhythm started building blue rhythm was there existing software already was there existing software already was there existing software already doing doing doing this and if so why did you think you this and if so why did you think you this and if so why did you think you know what edge did you think you had know what edge did you think you had know what edge did you think you had what did you think you could do better what did you think you could do better what did you think you could do better sure so yeah there were some existing sure so yeah there were some existing sure so yeah there were some existing solutions out there so that gave me just solutions out there so that gave me just solutions out there so that gave me just a little bit of confidence that a little bit of confidence that a little bit of confidence that there was a market you know there was there was a market you know there was there was a market you know there was people paying money for a solution like people paying money for a solution like people paying money for a solution like this this this um but the the existing options were um but the the existing options were um but the the existing options were either either either real old legacy platforms that were kind real old legacy platforms that were kind real old legacy platforms that were kind of on the downslope of their their life of on the downslope of their their life of on the downslope of their their life cycle cycle cycle or there's a there's a couple newer real or there's a there's a couple newer real or there's a there's a couple newer real modern sas modern sas modern sas you know web web-based platforms that you know web web-based platforms that you know web web-based platforms that are out there and are out there and are out there and they just have real clunky pricing they just have real clunky pricing they just have real clunky pricing models they're not as easy to do

models they're not as easy to do models they're not as easy to do business with business with business with so i felt like there was an opportunity so i felt like there was an opportunity so i felt like there was an opportunity to to get in to to get in to to get in it's not a saturated market over half of it's not a saturated market over half of it's not a saturated market over half of this industry is not this industry is not this industry is not using a sas solution right now they're using a sas solution right now they're using a sas solution right now they're using a combination of using a combination of using a combination of home-grown tools access databases maybe home-grown tools access databases maybe home-grown tools access databases maybe some cloud file storage so some cloud file storage so some cloud file storage so lots of opportunity for them to lots of opportunity for them to lots of opportunity for them to streamline and really come on board with streamline and really come on board with streamline and really come on board with a you know modern a you know modern a you know modern web platform to manage their projects web platform to manage their projects web platform to manage their projects yeah that makes sense yeah that makes sense yeah that makes sense and so how in an industry like this and so how in an industry like this and so how in an industry like this obviously you're not going to be able to obviously you're not going to be able to obviously you're not going to be able to run run run um i shouldn't say not but i would guess um i shouldn't say not but i would guess um i shouldn't say not but i would guess i'm guessing facebook ads is not going i'm guessing facebook ads is not going i'm guessing facebook ads is not going to work in your space you know and even to work in your space you know and even to work in your space you know and even like like like google adwords and linkedin are going to google adwords and linkedin are going to google adwords and linkedin are going to be a tough they're going to be tough be a tough they're going to be tough be a tough they're going to be tough traffic traffic traffic channels so you know are there a couple channels so you know are there a couple channels so you know are there a couple kind of lead gen kind of lead gen kind of lead gen avenues that have really worked for you avenues that have really worked for you avenues that have really worked for you yeah it's it's been tricky it's still yeah it's it's been tricky it's still yeah it's it's been tricky it's still it still is tricky so whatever we do it it still is tricky so whatever we do it it still is tricky so whatever we do it just has to be very very targeted so yes just has to be very very targeted so yes just has to be very very targeted so yes facebook ads are difficult um we're facebook ads are difficult um we're facebook ads are difficult um we're trying some different things with trying some different things with trying some different things with just promoting uh blog posts to a just promoting uh blog posts to a just promoting uh blog posts to a retargeted audience or lookalike retargeted audience or lookalike retargeted audience or lookalike audiences so still very very narrow audiences so still very very narrow audiences so still very very narrow um same thing with with google ads so um same thing with with google ads so um same thing with with google ads so any paid paid acquisition we're any paid paid acquisition we're any paid paid acquisition we're we're keeping it very small very focused we're keeping it very small very focused we're keeping it very small very focused and the things that have really i think and the things that have really i think and the things that have really i think moved the needle are kind of the moved the needle are kind of the moved the needle are kind of the in-person events so in-person events so in-person events so we go to industry conferences it's such we go to industry conferences it's such we go to industry conferences it's such a small community that a small community that a small community that if you're not at those events you're if you're not at those events you're if you're not at those events you're really kind of not part of the really kind of not part of the really kind of not part of the industry and in the community so you industry and in the community so you industry and in the community so you know last year once we know last year once we know last year once we once we started showing up to those once we started showing up to those once we started showing up to those events it really just gets our name events it really just gets our name events it really just gets our name out there people see that we're serious out there people see that we're serious out there people see that we're serious and we're here to stay and make a and we're here to stay and make a and we're here to stay and make a long-term push

long-term push long-term push in the market so the in-person events at in the market so the in-person events at in the market so the in-person events at conferences conferences conferences you know setting up a booth talking to you know setting up a booth talking to you know setting up a booth talking to people face-to-face and people face-to-face and people face-to-face and cold outreach has been a good channel cold outreach has been a good channel cold outreach has been a good channel for us too for us too for us too which is difficult and there's some good which is difficult and there's some good which is difficult and there's some good bad ways to do that but bad ways to do that but bad ways to do that but um had some success there just some um had some success there just some um had some success there just some people just you know aren't aren't aware people just you know aren't aren't aware people just you know aren't aren't aware or or or um just aren't currently you know in the um just aren't currently you know in the um just aren't currently you know in the mindset where they're looking so they mindset where they're looking so they mindset where they're looking so they just need just need just need that little extra prompt to get them that little extra prompt to get them that little extra prompt to get them interested yep interested yep interested yep yeah and that's the thing is you know yeah and that's the thing is you know yeah and that's the thing is you know i'll hear people say that let's say cold i'll hear people say that let's say cold i'll hear people say that let's say cold email is dead email is dead email is dead or that um you know trade shows and or that um you know trade shows and or that um you know trade shows and events aren't worth it but in these events aren't worth it but in these events aren't worth it but in these small niches small niches small niches where there are only thousands of where there are only thousands of where there are only thousands of potential customers you know or maybe potential customers you know or maybe potential customers you know or maybe tens of thousands but there aren't that tens of thousands but there aren't that tens of thousands but there aren't that many many many that oftentimes that still works you that oftentimes that still works you that oftentimes that still works you know if you're trying to cold email know if you're trying to cold email know if you're trying to cold email um i'm trying to say you know if you're um i'm trying to say you know if you're um i'm trying to say you know if you're trying to cold email startup founders trying to cold email startup founders trying to cold email startup founders today today today or startup executives or whatever that's or startup executives or whatever that's or startup executives or whatever that's a it's pretty saturated it's still a it's pretty saturated it's still a it's pretty saturated it's still possible you can possible you can possible you can but it takes a lot of time but in a but it takes a lot of time but in a but it takes a lot of time but in a space like that that maybe isn't space like that that maybe isn't space like that that maybe isn't inundated inundated inundated uh you know i think there's a lot of uh you know i think there's a lot of uh you know i think there's a lot of room there yep so room there yep so room there yep so you started working on blue river then you started working on blue river then you started working on blue river then part time about four years ago it was part time about four years ago it was part time about four years ago it was 2016 2016 2016 um you toiled part-time for two years um you toiled part-time for two years um you toiled part-time for two years and and and you you know you told me offline before you you know you told me offline before you you know you told me offline before we chatted you had a bunch of beta users we chatted you had a bunch of beta users we chatted you had a bunch of beta users coming really early coming really early coming really early they would come in they'd use it and they would come in they'd use it and they would come in they'd use it and they would churn out what was going on they would churn out what was going on they would churn out what was going on there what was the issue because there what was the issue because there what was the issue because i'm sure there are folks listening right i'm sure there are folks listening right i'm sure there are folks listening right now who are in exactly the same position now who are in exactly the same position now who are in exactly the same position that you were two years ago that you were two years ago that you were two years ago yeah so for better or worse i took the yeah so for better or worse i took the yeah so for better or worse i took the path of path of path of getting something put together getting a getting something put together getting a getting something put together getting a usable product usable product usable product i don't know if you call an mvp or not i don't know if you call an mvp or not i don't know if you call an mvp or not but getting something there where people

but getting something there where people but getting something there where people could come in and use it could come in and use it could come in and use it so i was i was just testing the product so i was i was just testing the product so i was i was just testing the product testing to see what what people testing to see what what people testing to see what what people would respond to and i got a huge amount would respond to and i got a huge amount would respond to and i got a huge amount of feedback of feedback of feedback so it's not a so it's not a so it's not a approach that would work or i would approach that would work or i would approach that would work or i would advise in all situations advise in all situations advise in all situations but for me never having started a but for me never having started a but for me never having started a business before let alone a software business before let alone a software business before let alone a software company company company getting that getting all that feedback getting that getting all that feedback getting that getting all that feedback early on really drove the direction that early on really drove the direction that early on really drove the direction that we ended up taking the company and i we ended up taking the company and i we ended up taking the company and i think without that feedback we would think without that feedback we would think without that feedback we would have have have toiled a lot longer and and had a lot toiled a lot longer and and had a lot toiled a lot longer and and had a lot more difficulty reaching the point where more difficulty reaching the point where more difficulty reaching the point where we finally feel like we have we finally feel like we have we finally feel like we have product market fit um where we've product market fit um where we've product market fit um where we've figured out these different marketing figured out these different marketing figured out these different marketing channels and stuff so channels and stuff so channels and stuff so just lots of experimentation and some of just lots of experimentation and some of just lots of experimentation and some of those early adopters that are willing to those early adopters that are willing to those early adopters that are willing to give us a try they're also willing to give us a try they're also willing to give us a try they're also willing to you know tell you how bad it sucks or you know tell you how bad it sucks or you know tell you how bad it sucks or give you some some feedback that'll get give you some some feedback that'll get give you some some feedback that'll get you going in the right direction so you going in the right direction so you going in the right direction so um that's that's really what it was it um that's that's really what it was it um that's that's really what it was it just was a product that just was a product that just was a product that that wasn't quite ready yet and you know that wasn't quite ready yet and you know that wasn't quite ready yet and you know so many developers that i know so many developers that i know so many developers that i know go in their basement for two years and go in their basement for two years and go in their basement for two years and just code and they don't have anybody just code and they don't have anybody just code and they don't have anybody use the app use the app use the app whereas you went counter to that it whereas you went counter to that it whereas you went counter to that it sounds like intuitively your natural sounds like intuitively your natural sounds like intuitively your natural instinct was to let people use it early instinct was to let people use it early instinct was to let people use it early again that's again that's again that's even back in the day that was not my even back in the day that was not my even back in the day that was not my instinct because i was scared and i it instinct because i was scared and i it instinct because i was scared and i it was never good enough and it was never was never good enough and it was never was never good enough and it was never there there there why do you think you did that why do you why do you think you did that why do you why do you think you did that why do you think you did the opposite of what most think you did the opposite of what most think you did the opposite of what most people do people do people do um partly for the reasons i said and um partly for the reasons i said and um partly for the reasons i said and partly just out of ignorance um partly just out of ignorance um partly just out of ignorance um honestly there were a couple times where honestly there were a couple times where honestly there were a couple times where i i thought we had i i thought we had i i thought we had got it to a point where it was going to

got it to a point where it was going to got it to a point where it was going to work and it was work and it was work and it was good enough so to speak but it wasn't good enough so to speak but it wasn't good enough so to speak but it wasn't and and and those were the just in terms of those were the just in terms of those were the just in terms of rejection and uh just the emotional rejection and uh just the emotional rejection and uh just the emotional response that i had those were some of response that i had those were some of response that i had those were some of the the the the toughest times but um you know i the toughest times but um you know i the toughest times but um you know i just stuck with it and i was like you just stuck with it and i was like you just stuck with it and i was like you know there's there's a response people know there's there's a response people know there's there's a response people want this want this want this if i keep at it eventually we'll get if i keep at it eventually we'll get if i keep at it eventually we'll get this figured out and eventually they'll this figured out and eventually they'll this figured out and eventually they'll you know the the feedback will shift to you know the the feedback will shift to you know the the feedback will shift to more more more positive versus more negative right yeah positive versus more negative right yeah positive versus more negative right yeah that's what i was going to ask you about that's what i was going to ask you about that's what i was going to ask you about you spent two years part-time obviously you spent two years part-time obviously you spent two years part-time obviously you were probably working a day job you were probably working a day job you were probably working a day job right and you had nights and weekends right and you had nights and weekends right and you had nights and weekends working on blue rhythm two years is a working on blue rhythm two years is a working on blue rhythm two years is a long time long time long time you're getting rejection people are you're getting rejection people are you're getting rejection people are churning out why didn't you quit churning out why didn't you quit churning out why didn't you quit i think there was always enough momentum i think there was always enough momentum i think there was always enough momentum for me to keep pushing forward and and i for me to keep pushing forward and and i for me to keep pushing forward and and i just had a strong desire to make it work just had a strong desire to make it work just had a strong desire to make it work i'd always wanted to have i'd always wanted to have i'd always wanted to have something that i that i own that i something that i that i own that i something that i that i own that i created i just liked the created i just liked the created i just liked the the process of creating and getting the the process of creating and getting the the process of creating and getting the feedback even though it's not always feedback even though it's not always feedback even though it's not always good and good and good and and taking that adding it into the and taking that adding it into the and taking that adding it into the product and then getting the feedback product and then getting the feedback product and then getting the feedback that says hey that's great that says hey that's great that says hey that's great thanks for thanks for doing that um so thanks for thanks for doing that um so thanks for thanks for doing that um so just the just the desire to see it to just the just the desire to see it to just the just the desire to see it to see it through and to see it through and to see it through and to to see it work and just knowing that the to see it work and just knowing that the to see it work and just knowing that the market was there you know it wasn't like market was there you know it wasn't like market was there you know it wasn't like i was trying to i was trying to i was trying to convince people to to do something that convince people to to do something that convince people to to do something that they had never they had never they had never thought of or seen before right yeah and thought of or seen before right yeah and thought of or seen before right yeah and then then then it was just about a year ago it was it was just about a year ago it was it was just about a year ago it was mid-2019 that you you kind of mid-2019 that you you kind of mid-2019 that you you kind of call your soft launch right where you call your soft launch right where you call your soft launch right where you actually feel like you kind of went all actually feel like you kind of went all actually feel like you kind of went all in

in in you said this is when things started you said this is when things started you said this is when things started growing for you and growing for you and growing for you and i'm sure is that when you went full-time i'm sure is that when you went full-time i'm sure is that when you went full-time it is yeah may last year it is yeah may last year it is yeah may last year may of last year and did you have enough may of last year and did you have enough may of last year and did you have enough revenue to cover revenue to cover revenue to cover your you know expenses or did you have your you know expenses or did you have your you know expenses or did you have savings or did you just savings or did you just savings or did you just jump off the diving um yeah i didn't jump off the diving um yeah i didn't jump off the diving um yeah i didn't wasn't quite at a point where wasn't quite at a point where wasn't quite at a point where the the business alone would have um the the business alone would have um the the business alone would have um kept me going so kept me going so kept me going so i had a fallback plan which was some i had a fallback plan which was some i had a fallback plan which was some savings which i did use some of savings which i did use some of savings which i did use some of um but yeah i just had confidence that um but yeah i just had confidence that um but yeah i just had confidence that we were we were we were close enough to product market fit that close enough to product market fit that close enough to product market fit that it was going to work it was going to work it was going to work um just because of our who our customers um just because of our who our customers um just because of our who our customers are and how our pricing model works it are and how our pricing model works it are and how our pricing model works it makes sense most of the time for people makes sense most of the time for people makes sense most of the time for people to pay annually to pay annually to pay annually so even though our mrr you know was so even though our mrr you know was so even though our mrr you know was maybe in four figures the actual amount maybe in four figures the actual amount maybe in four figures the actual amount of money coming in the door was of money coming in the door was of money coming in the door was you know in five figures potentially or you know in five figures potentially or you know in five figures potentially or higher four figures so higher four figures so higher four figures so um i just i just had confidence that it um i just i just had confidence that it um i just i just had confidence that it was was was going to work out one way or another and going to work out one way or another and going to work out one way or another and you know worst case i you know worst case i you know worst case i like i told you i end up living in my like i told you i end up living in my like i told you i end up living in my parents basement for a little bit but parents basement for a little bit but parents basement for a little bit but that happens it's sacrifices we make that happens it's sacrifices we make that happens it's sacrifices we make right yeah yeah so right yeah yeah so right yeah yeah so pull the trigger i figured if if i'm pull the trigger i figured if if i'm pull the trigger i figured if if i'm going to make it work i got a i got to going to make it work i got a i got to going to make it work i got a i got to be all in and be all in and be all in and that's the that's when i jumped off yep that's the that's when i jumped off yep that's the that's when i jumped off yep and and and i was so that he he just said a pretty i was so that he he just said a pretty i was so that he he just said a pretty cool hack that i've heard many people cool hack that i've heard many people cool hack that i've heard many people mention i've actually done it myself mention i've actually done it myself mention i've actually done it myself jason cohen talked about it jason cohen talked about it jason cohen talked about it um in in one of the best talks about um in in one of the best talks about um in in one of the best talks about bootstrapping uh bootstrapping uh bootstrapping uh ever called backing what is it yeah ever called backing what is it yeah ever called backing what is it yeah building the ideal bootstrap business i building the ideal bootstrap business i building the ideal bootstrap business i believe but it's the annual prepay and believe but it's the annual prepay and believe but it's the annual prepay and if you're in a space if you're in a space if you're in a space where as a bootstrapper you can get your where as a bootstrapper you can get your where as a bootstrapper you can get your customers to annually

customers to annually customers to annually prepay you typically give them two prepay you typically give them two prepay you typically give them two months off is how you know i would often months off is how you know i would often months off is how you know i would often work it so you give them about a 16 work it so you give them about a 16 work it so you give them about a 16 and 23 discount um then your cash flow and 23 discount um then your cash flow and 23 discount um then your cash flow is way more than your mrr but that can is way more than your mrr but that can is way more than your mrr but that can allow you to either hire someone or allow you to either hire someone or allow you to either hire someone or allows you to quit your day job or allows you to quit your day job or allows you to quit your day job or whatever it is whatever it is whatever it is i'm curious so you have this two years i'm curious so you have this two years i'm curious so you have this two years of just two or three years of kind of of just two or three years of kind of of just two or three years of kind of toiling part-time toiling part-time toiling part-time and struggling people are churning out and struggling people are churning out and struggling people are churning out then you s you had enough traction that then you s you had enough traction that then you s you had enough traction that you're like i think we're almost at you're like i think we're almost at you're like i think we're almost at product market fit and and then you did product market fit and and then you did product market fit and and then you did you have achieved it at this point um you have achieved it at this point um you have achieved it at this point um what changed between that early height what changed between that early height what changed between that early height those early high those early high those early high churn days and the past 12 months of churn days and the past 12 months of churn days and the past 12 months of kind of as your growth has accelerated kind of as your growth has accelerated kind of as your growth has accelerated like what's like what's like what's what's different yeah i can't point to what's different yeah i can't point to what's different yeah i can't point to one specific thing but it's definitely one specific thing but it's definitely one specific thing but it's definitely just a just a just a you know a combination of um getting the you know a combination of um getting the you know a combination of um getting the getting the messaging and the marketing getting the messaging and the marketing getting the messaging and the marketing the positioning figured out the positioning figured out the positioning figured out uh you know so we're we're talking to uh you know so we're we're talking to uh you know so we're we're talking to the right people we're the right people we're the right people we're having the right people coming to talk having the right people coming to talk having the right people coming to talk to us about signing up to us about signing up to us about signing up um so they know what they're getting um so they know what they're getting um so they know what they're getting into we know who we're talking to and into we know who we're talking to and into we know who we're talking to and and what the you know ideal customer is and what the you know ideal customer is and what the you know ideal customer is looking for looking for looking for and then just having that much time to and then just having that much time to and then just having that much time to to work on the product and get it ready to work on the product and get it ready to work on the product and get it ready and and and and get you know as closer i can't say and get you know as closer i can't say and get you know as closer i can't say that we're that we're that we're 100 there but getting much much closer 100 there but getting much much closer 100 there but getting much much closer to product market fit to product market fit to product market fit yeah that makes sense such an evolving yeah that makes sense such an evolving yeah that makes sense such an evolving process and it's not binary right it's a process and it's not binary right it's a process and it's not binary right it's a continuum it's like continuum it's like continuum it's like you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 50 50 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a new audience and i don't know new audience and i don't know new audience and i don't know in your tight niche if it'll do that but

in your tight niche if it'll do that but in your tight niche if it'll do that but then you find a new audience that finds then you find a new audience that finds then you find a new audience that finds out about you out about you out about you and then your aggregate part of market and then your aggregate part of market and then your aggregate part of market fit actually goes down again and then fit actually goes down again and then fit actually goes down again and then you have to work you have to work you have to work because the new audience you don't quite because the new audience you don't quite because the new audience you don't quite have it right you don't have all the have it right you don't have all the have it right you don't have all the features yep features yep features yep um as as we kind of wrap up i you know um as as we kind of wrap up i you know um as as we kind of wrap up i you know you're you're in tiny seed batch two you're you're in tiny seed batch two you're you're in tiny seed batch two yep and um i'm curious yep and um i'm curious yep and um i'm curious why like what made you decide to well why like what made you decide to well why like what made you decide to well first i'm curious how you heard about first i'm curious how you heard about first i'm curious how you heard about tiny seed and second what made you tiny seed and second what made you tiny seed and second what made you decide to apply because the application decide to apply because the application decide to apply because the application you know you went um middle of of 2019 you know you went um middle of of 2019 you know you went um middle of of 2019 you went full time you went full time you went full time you would have applied probably four or you would have applied probably four or you would have applied probably four or five months later it would have been five months later it would have been five months later it would have been november of 2019 november of 2019 november of 2019 and then you would have been accepted i and then you would have been accepted i and then you would have been accepted i think you know about six seven months think you know about six seven months think you know about six seven months ago so ago so ago so first you know where'd you hear about it first you know where'd you hear about it first you know where'd you hear about it in a second what made you decide to in a second what made you decide to in a second what made you decide to apply apply apply so i had been a listener of startups for so i had been a listener of startups for so i had been a listener of startups for the rest of us for a long time the rest of us for a long time the rest of us for a long time so i that's probably where i heard about so i that's probably where i heard about so i that's probably where i heard about it or just something related to that it or just something related to that it or just something related to that that channel and the idea was to that channel and the idea was to that channel and the idea was to it wasn't so much a safety net so to it wasn't so much a safety net so to it wasn't so much a safety net so to speak but it was speak but it was speak but it was originally planned to be kind of an originally planned to be kind of an originally planned to be kind of an accelerant so there were some other accelerant so there were some other accelerant so there were some other parts of the the platform that we really parts of the the platform that we really parts of the the platform that we really needed to to reach needed to to reach needed to to reach to really get our platform built out and to really get our platform built out and to really get our platform built out and get to parity and exceed get to parity and exceed get to parity and exceed parity with the other options out there parity with the other options out there parity with the other options out there and the plan was to take that and really and the plan was to take that and really and the plan was to take that and really just kind of just kind of just kind of throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i felt like we had a really good idea of felt like we had a really good idea of felt like we had a really good idea of what we needed to do at that point and what we needed to do at that point and what we needed to do at that point and i just wanted to do it faster really and i just wanted to do it faster really and i just wanted to do it faster really and has it accelerated for you has it accelerated for you has it accelerated for you yeah definitely awesome yep well sir yeah definitely awesome yep well sir yeah definitely awesome yep well sir we're at time thank you so much for we're at time thank you so much for we're at time thank you so much for joining us today yeah joining us today yeah joining us today yeah absolutely happy to be here all right absolutely happy to be here all right absolutely happy to be here all right great having you

hello and welcome to your five minute hello and welcome to your five minute seo hack seo hack seo hack in this hack we want to be using free in this hack we want to be using free in this hack we want to be using free google tools to find opportunities google tools to find opportunities google tools to find opportunities within existing content within existing content within existing content and then i'll show you some tweaks that and then i'll show you some tweaks that and then i'll show you some tweaks that you can be making to rank for more you can be making to rank for more you can be making to rank for more keywords keywords keywords for pages that you already have my name for pages that you already have my name for pages that you already have my name is viola eva and i run a company called is viola eva and i run a company called is viola eva and i run a company called flow seo where we help digital flow seo where we help digital flow seo where we help digital businesses to rank on google and businesses to rank on google and businesses to rank on google and increase their organic traffic increase their organic traffic increase their organic traffic here i've jumped into google search here i've jumped into google search here i've jumped into google search console console console google search on console is our google search on console is our google search on console is our opportunity to communicate with google opportunity to communicate with google opportunity to communicate with google it is not google analytics google it is not google analytics google it is not google analytics google analytics is something where you've analytics is something where you've analytics is something where you've probably in and probably in and probably in and before which allows you to look how many before which allows you to look how many before which allows you to look how many people visit your website people visit your website people visit your website and what do they do on your website and what do they do on your website and what do they do on your website google search console is google search console is google search console is more of your control center in which you more of your control center in which you more of your control center in which you communicate with google communicate with google communicate with google it allows you to see how many pages are it allows you to see how many pages are it allows you to see how many pages are indexed if there are any errors indexed if there are any errors indexed if there are any errors and it also gives you a brief keyword and it also gives you a brief keyword and it also gives you a brief keyword report report report it's probably not the best keyword it's probably not the best keyword it's probably not the best keyword report to be found that's what seo tools report to be found that's what seo tools report to be found that's what seo tools are for but once you set it up it's free are for but once you set it up it's free are for but once you set it up it's free so this is what's making it interesting so this is what's making it interesting so this is what's making it interesting i'm here in the performance report and i'm here in the performance report and i'm here in the performance report and i've chosen to look i've chosen to look i've chosen to look at the last text month now i'm clicking at the last text month now i'm clicking at the last text month now i'm clicking here for average ctr and average here for average ctr and average here for average ctr and average position position position and i'm scrolling down to pages and i'm scrolling down to pages and i'm scrolling down to pages what i'm looking for are pages where i'm what i'm looking for are pages where i'm what i'm looking for are pages where i'm stuck on page two or three or four of stuck on page two or three or four of stuck on page two or three or four of google google google these are the pages where google is these are the pages where google is these are the pages where google is showing some interest we showing some interest we showing some interest we are ranking right we made it to page two

are ranking right we made it to page two are ranking right we made it to page two but we're not getting the organic but we're not getting the organic but we're not getting the organic traffic that we deserve because google traffic that we deserve because google traffic that we deserve because google thinks we're not quite relevant thinks we're not quite relevant thinks we're not quite relevant so i'm looking here at the position so i'm looking here at the position so i'm looking here at the position column to kind of like find column to kind of like find column to kind of like find opportunities opportunities opportunities and i basically want to see where i may and i basically want to see where i may and i basically want to see where i may be getting some impressions and some be getting some impressions and some be getting some impressions and some clicks but not a whole lot clicks but not a whole lot clicks but not a whole lot so this one here stands out to me and it so this one here stands out to me and it so this one here stands out to me and it stands out to me because it's a good stands out to me because it's a good stands out to me because it's a good important keyword seo agency berlin but important keyword seo agency berlin but important keyword seo agency berlin but it's really not getting any it's really not getting any it's really not getting any good like clicks that make it worthwhile good like clicks that make it worthwhile good like clicks that make it worthwhile i can now click and see more details i can now click and see more details i can now click and see more details about that specific page about that specific page about that specific page and i'm typing here to look at the and i'm typing here to look at the and i'm typing here to look at the queries queries queries so here i can see all the keywords that so here i can see all the keywords that so here i can see all the keywords that i'm i'm i'm currently ranking for and that google currently ranking for and that google currently ranking for and that google search console is tracking and showing search console is tracking and showing search console is tracking and showing to me to me to me so this gives me an idea on where i'm so this gives me an idea on where i'm so this gives me an idea on where i'm doing well so seo agency berlin i can doing well so seo agency berlin i can doing well so seo agency berlin i can see see see okay i'm almost on page on the bottom of okay i'm almost on page on the bottom of okay i'm almost on page on the bottom of page 1 position 10 that's quite good page 1 position 10 that's quite good page 1 position 10 that's quite good but then for example there's seo company but then for example there's seo company but then for example there's seo company in berlin where i'm in position 19 so i in berlin where i'm in position 19 so i in berlin where i'm in position 19 so i could be doing much better here could be doing much better here could be doing much better here and this is also a keyword that has a and this is also a keyword that has a and this is also a keyword that has a lot better click-through rate lot better click-through rate lot better click-through rate so it might be interesting for me so so it might be interesting for me so so it might be interesting for me so what i'm curious to understand what i'm curious to understand what i'm curious to understand is if i'm leaving any money on the table is if i'm leaving any money on the table is if i'm leaving any money on the table here with this keyword seo company here with this keyword seo company here with this keyword seo company compared to my focus keyword seo agency compared to my focus keyword seo agency compared to my focus keyword seo agency so i'm jumping into the article so i'm jumping into the article so i'm jumping into the article and it basically allows me to have a and it basically allows me to have a and it basically allows me to have a look on what i have here look on what i have here look on what i have here and then use another free seo tool and then use another free seo tool and then use another free seo tool called seo minion called seo minion called seo minion and i can basically click on analyze on and i can basically click on analyze on and i can basically click on analyze on page seo and in can i'm trying to

page seo and in can i'm trying to page seo and in can i'm trying to understand if i did my seo basics right understand if i did my seo basics right understand if i did my seo basics right the seo basics include adding my keyword the seo basics include adding my keyword the seo basics include adding my keyword into the url into the url into the url adding my keyword into the page title adding my keyword into the page title adding my keyword into the page title and then adding it and then adding it and then adding it into my headline one and possibly a few into my headline one and possibly a few into my headline one and possibly a few sub-headlines sub-headlines sub-headlines i can see that i've done a really good i can see that i've done a really good i can see that i've done a really good job here the keyword boutique seo agency job here the keyword boutique seo agency job here the keyword boutique seo agency berlin berlin berlin it appears in some of the most important it appears in some of the most important it appears in some of the most important ranking factors ranking factors ranking factors what i can never see here is the keyword what i can never see here is the keyword what i can never see here is the keyword seo company it doesn't appear in the sub seo company it doesn't appear in the sub seo company it doesn't appear in the sub headlines it doesn't headlines it doesn't headlines it doesn't appear in the page shuttle meta appear in the page shuttle meta appear in the page shuttle meta description or url now one word of description or url now one word of description or url now one word of advice about urls advice about urls advice about urls you don't want to change and redirect you don't want to change and redirect you don't want to change and redirect your urls in this case this is really your urls in this case this is really your urls in this case this is really rolling the dice if you create a new rolling the dice if you create a new rolling the dice if you create a new page always make sure to keep it page always make sure to keep it page always make sure to keep it optimize your urls but if you're already optimize your urls but if you're already optimize your urls but if you're already on page two on page two on page two i wouldn't dare to roll the dice and i i wouldn't dare to roll the dice and i i wouldn't dare to roll the dice and i just leave it it is just leave it it is just leave it it is so i'm jumping into the actual page and so i'm jumping into the actual page and so i'm jumping into the actual page and i'm typing the word company to see if i'm typing the word company to see if i'm typing the word company to see if i'm even using the word company i'm even using the word company i'm even using the word company and i can see that i'm using it several and i can see that i'm using it several and i can see that i'm using it several times times times but i'm always using it in the context but i'm always using it in the context but i'm always using it in the context of talking about my clients basically of talking about my clients basically of talking about my clients basically seo enables your company or your seo enables your company or your seo enables your company or your company's goal company's goal company's goal um and then what else do you have here um and then what else do you have here um and then what else do you have here again again again as you ordered for your company we will as you ordered for your company we will as you ordered for your company we will sleep and breathe your company sleep and breathe your company sleep and breathe your company so what i can see is in this entire page so what i can see is in this entire page so what i can see is in this entire page the word seo company berlin the word seo company berlin the word seo company berlin actually never appeared so this is actually never appeared so this is actually never appeared so this is actually a really really good actually a really really good actually a really really good opportunity opportunity opportunity because i'm already in position 19 and i because i'm already in position 19 and i because i'm already in position 19 and i didn't even use that keyword didn't even use that keyword didn't even use that keyword so if i can now start adding that so if i can now start adding that so if i can now start adding that keyword keyword keyword my chance of improving is a lot better

my chance of improving is a lot better my chance of improving is a lot better same here is like search engine same here is like search engine same here is like search engine optimization berlin optimization berlin optimization berlin i'm in position 22 and that probably i'm in position 22 and that probably i'm in position 22 and that probably doesn't even appear on the page doesn't even appear on the page doesn't even appear on the page so by adding in those keywords that are so by adding in those keywords that are so by adding in those keywords that are that are doing somewhat well but not that are doing somewhat well but not that are doing somewhat well but not super well but not even appearing in the super well but not even appearing in the super well but not even appearing in the text that can dramatically improve my text that can dramatically improve my text that can dramatically improve my chance of ranking chance of ranking chance of ranking i have an seo checklist that you can i have an seo checklist that you can i have an seo checklist that you can download here download here download here at floyd.com content slice checklist no at floyd.com content slice checklist no at floyd.com content slice checklist no opt-in opt-in opt-in no sign up no nothing you just jump no sign up no nothing you just jump no sign up no nothing you just jump right into my content calendar template right into my content calendar template right into my content calendar template and the parts that are interesting for and the parts that are interesting for and the parts that are interesting for you is the seo checklist that starts you is the seo checklist that starts you is the seo checklist that starts here at column h here at column h here at column h and it basically tells tells you what and it basically tells tells you what and it basically tells tells you what you should be looking at first it asks you should be looking at first it asks you should be looking at first it asks you have you done a good job with the you have you done a good job with the you have you done a good job with the main keyword which is the most important main keyword which is the most important main keyword which is the most important keyword for the page keyword for the page keyword for the page but then it also asks you did i use my but then it also asks you did i use my but then it also asks you did i use my supporting keywords in the sub-headline supporting keywords in the sub-headline supporting keywords in the sub-headline in the body of text in the body of text in the body of text and here i can see for the two keywords and here i can see for the two keywords and here i can see for the two keywords that were my opportunities that were my opportunities that were my opportunities i didn't even do that so now my job i didn't even do that so now my job i didn't even do that so now my job would be basically taking that page and would be basically taking that page and would be basically taking that page and making sure that i can confidently say making sure that i can confidently say making sure that i can confidently say yes yes yes for all these important on-page seo for all these important on-page seo for all these important on-page seo factors factors factors and this is how you can find seo and this is how you can find seo and this is how you can find seo opportunities just by using the free opportunities just by using the free opportunities just by using the free google search console google search console google search console and the seo minion plugin and a free and the seo minion plugin and a free and the seo minion plugin and a free spreadsheet that i offered you here spreadsheet that i offered you here spreadsheet that i offered you here i hope you're going to have fun with i hope you're going to have fun with i hope you're going to have fun with this and happy ranking this and happy ranking this and happy ranking our next keynote is from the co-founders our next keynote is from the co-founders our next keynote is from the co-founders of squadcast squadcast.fm of squadcast squadcast.fm of squadcast squadcast.fm is podcast it's remote podcast recording is podcast it's remote podcast recording is podcast it's remote podcast recording software software software so you log into a web browser you send a so you log into a web browser you send a so you log into a web browser you send a link to

link to link to a guest up to three guests and you can a guest up to three guests and you can a guest up to three guests and you can all uh just get in all uh just get in all uh just get in and instantly record local audio super and instantly record local audio super and instantly record local audio super high quality it's what i high quality it's what i high quality it's what i use to record all three of my podcasts use to record all three of my podcasts use to record all three of my podcasts so zach moreno and rock felder so zach moreno and rock felder so zach moreno and rock felder they've been friends for most of their they've been friends for most of their they've been friends for most of their lives and they're lucky to have lives and they're lucky to have lives and they're lucky to have maintained that friendship maintained that friendship maintained that friendship as they built squad cast into a company as they built squad cast into a company as they built squad cast into a company that has blown past that has blown past that has blown past 100k mrr they've blown past that mark in 100k mrr they've blown past that mark in 100k mrr they've blown past that mark in the past year the past year the past year and with that let's welcome rock and and with that let's welcome rock and and with that let's welcome rock and zach to the show thank you gentlemen so zach to the show thank you gentlemen so zach to the show thank you gentlemen so much much much hi thanks rob thank can you hear us guys yep can you hear us guys yep all right well hello to our friends of all right well hello to our friends of all right well hello to our friends of microconf thank you all for your time microconf thank you all for your time microconf thank you all for your time today today today we're super excited maybe even a little we're super excited maybe even a little we're super excited maybe even a little nervous about sharing our story with you nervous about sharing our story with you nervous about sharing our story with you on how we blew past 100k mrr just a on how we blew past 100k mrr just a on how we blew past 100k mrr just a warning warning warning uh it happened a little bit different uh it happened a little bit different uh it happened a little bit different than we expected and we think it can for than we expected and we think it can for than we expected and we think it can for you too you too you too uh before we do get started with uh the uh before we do get started with uh the uh before we do get started with uh the presentation though we would like to presentation though we would like to presentation though we would like to introduce ourselves so zach say hi and introduce ourselves so zach say hi and introduce ourselves so zach say hi and tell him a little something about what tell him a little something about what tell him a little something about what you do at squad cast yeah hey everyone you do at squad cast yeah hey everyone you do at squad cast yeah hey everyone i'm the co-founder and ceo of squad cast i'm the co-founder and ceo of squad cast i'm the co-founder and ceo of squad cast with my good friend rock with my good friend rock with my good friend rock yeah and i'm rock and i'm the co-founder yeah and i'm rock and i'm the co-founder yeah and i'm rock and i'm the co-founder and cfo so kind of handle and cfo so kind of handle and cfo so kind of handle uh more of the business sales side of uh more of the business sales side of uh more of the business sales side of things things things okay so a little bit about okay so a little bit about okay so a little bit about our backstory we're uh longtime friends our backstory we're uh longtime friends our backstory we're uh longtime friends as we shared as we shared as we shared and we are avid podcast listeners rock and we are avid podcast listeners rock and we are avid podcast listeners rock actually introduced me to podcasts and actually introduced me to podcasts and actually introduced me to podcasts and i've always loved i've always loved i've always loved listening because we have uh we have a listening because we have uh we have a listening because we have uh we have a love for for learning new things and

love for for learning new things and love for for learning new things and podcasts are a fantastic way to go podcasts are a fantastic way to go podcasts are a fantastic way to go really deep really deep really deep into a niche topic uh very quickly into a niche topic uh very quickly into a niche topic uh very quickly and from there we decided to make the and from there we decided to make the and from there we decided to make the the transition over the course of a the transition over the course of a the transition over the course of a couple years later decided to make the couple years later decided to make the couple years later decided to make the jump from being a jump from being a jump from being a passive listener to a lot of podcasts passive listener to a lot of podcasts passive listener to a lot of podcasts and really make the jump into being and really make the jump into being and really make the jump into being an active creator and participate in an active creator and participate in an active creator and participate in making our own show making our own show making our own show we wanted to do a science fiction audio we wanted to do a science fiction audio we wanted to do a science fiction audio drama so drama so drama so um that's a relatively new category um that's a relatively new category um that's a relatively new category within podcasting within podcasting within podcasting and uh just fell in love with that right and uh just fell in love with that right and uh just fell in love with that right away so away so away so uh once we started that journey we had a uh once we started that journey we had a uh once we started that journey we had a we had a constraint we had a constraint we had a constraint of being a remote team and um of being a remote team and um of being a remote team and um you know like like we are today so uh we you know like like we are today so uh we you know like like we are today so uh we we didn't want to sacrifice the we didn't want to sacrifice the we didn't want to sacrifice the the audio quality of our production uh the audio quality of our production uh the audio quality of our production uh with uh with that constraint of having a with uh with that constraint of having a with uh with that constraint of having a remote producer and remote producer and remote producer and voice actors and authors and all of voice actors and authors and all of voice actors and authors and all of those things we we needed to have those things we we needed to have those things we we needed to have high quality production while having a high quality production while having a high quality production while having a distributed team to have any kind of distributed team to have any kind of distributed team to have any kind of regular cadence which is super important regular cadence which is super important regular cadence which is super important to podcast to podcast to podcast audience growth so we we found that audience growth so we we found that audience growth so we we found that problem of problem of problem of of audio quality wasn't really there of audio quality wasn't really there of audio quality wasn't really there with the state of the art with the state of the art with the state of the art in in the industry and really saw that in in the industry and really saw that in in the industry and really saw that as a as a challenge kind of accepted as a as a challenge kind of accepted as a as a challenge kind of accepted that challenge and pivoted then from that challenge and pivoted then from that challenge and pivoted then from doing this sci-fi audio drama podcast doing this sci-fi audio drama podcast doing this sci-fi audio drama podcast to uh to a sas startup which which is a to uh to a sas startup which which is a to uh to a sas startup which which is a first for us so what we do like rob shared we help

so what we do like rob shared we help professional podcasters professional podcasters professional podcasters record remote interviews in studio record remote interviews in studio record remote interviews in studio quality quality quality so we help with recording thousands of so we help with recording thousands of so we help with recording thousands of hours each month hours each month hours each month in over 120 countries around the world in over 120 countries around the world in over 120 countries around the world and in the graphic you can see there on and in the graphic you can see there on and in the graphic you can see there on the right the right the right the ah there we go sorry about that ah there we go sorry about that cool there we go that's the graphic all cool there we go that's the graphic all cool there we go that's the graphic all right so right so right so um we help podcasters we do it a lot and um we help podcasters we do it a lot and um we help podcasters we do it a lot and um um um and that ux is uh very similar to other and that ux is uh very similar to other and that ux is uh very similar to other video apps and conferencing apps that video apps and conferencing apps that video apps and conferencing apps that you may have used you may have used you may have used except that we record studio quality except that we record studio quality except that we record studio quality audio audio audio and we have two patents pending on our and we have two patents pending on our and we have two patents pending on our technology solutions for technology solutions for technology solutions for how we empower that style of recording how we empower that style of recording how we empower that style of recording and and and we've been bootstrapped and working on we've been bootstrapped and working on we've been bootstrapped and working on this for around four years now all right and uh on this next slide all right and uh on this next slide you'll see some of the companies that you'll see some of the companies that you'll see some of the companies that we're honored to work with but we also we're honored to work with but we also we're honored to work with but we also get to work with get to work with get to work with a lot of amazing podcasters like pat a lot of amazing podcasters like pat a lot of amazing podcasters like pat flynn kara swisher flynn kara swisher flynn kara swisher people at the spotify gimlet teams and people at the spotify gimlet teams and people at the spotify gimlet teams and so many of those other companies that so many of those other companies that so many of those other companies that you see you see you see oh excuse me and the great rob walling oh excuse me and the great rob walling oh excuse me and the great rob walling too like he mentioned so it's truly an too like he mentioned so it's truly an too like he mentioned so it's truly an honor honor honor yeah it's truly an honor to help that yeah it's truly an honor to help that yeah it's truly an honor to help that and so many other podcasters in and so many other podcasters in and so many other podcasters in various uh places in their journey various uh places in their journey various uh places in their journey whether they're just starting off whether they're just starting off whether they're just starting off or they're uh you know a pro working for or they're uh you know a pro working for or they're uh you know a pro working for a big corporation a big corporation a big corporation and these creatives really define the

and these creatives really define the and these creatives really define the standards for audio quality in our standards for audio quality in our standards for audio quality in our industry industry industry and will really help them to achieve it and will really help them to achieve it and will really help them to achieve it at scale all right but because we have such deep all right but because we have such deep respect respect respect for the work that you all are doing we for the work that you all are doing we for the work that you all are doing we need to be real with our fellow need to be real with our fellow need to be real with our fellow bootstrappers bootstrappers bootstrappers it honestly felt like it took forever it honestly felt like it took forever it honestly felt like it took forever for us to reach 10 kmrr for us to reach 10 kmrr for us to reach 10 kmrr and um that wasn't very long ago and um that wasn't very long ago and um that wasn't very long ago yeah so um we've never done any of this yeah so um we've never done any of this yeah so um we've never done any of this before before before and uh like rock said we respect all of and uh like rock said we respect all of and uh like rock said we respect all of you for going on you for going on you for going on on a similar journey and uh our founding on a similar journey and uh our founding on a similar journey and uh our founding team team team have all had day jobs for for years into have all had day jobs for for years into have all had day jobs for for years into this experience together this experience together this experience together and uh and when we finally did reach 10k and uh and when we finally did reach 10k and uh and when we finally did reach 10k mrr mrr mrr um 100k just seemed like um 100k just seemed like um 100k just seemed like light years in the future from that and light years in the future from that and light years in the future from that and uh uh uh rock and i finally started paying rock and i finally started paying rock and i finally started paying ourselves in january of this year so ourselves in january of this year so ourselves in january of this year so still 2020 even though it has been kind still 2020 even though it has been kind still 2020 even though it has been kind of a dumpster fire in lots of ways of a dumpster fire in lots of ways of a dumpster fire in lots of ways uh that was a big milestone for us so we uh that was a big milestone for us so we uh that was a big milestone for us so we suspect that uh this may sound familiar suspect that uh this may sound familiar suspect that uh this may sound familiar to the to the journey that you're on all right so we're gonna go back about a all right so we're gonna go back about a year when we did finally reach that 10k year when we did finally reach that 10k year when we did finally reach that 10k mrr mrr mrr um milestone and you remember how good um milestone and you remember how good um milestone and you remember how good that felt man like how that felt man like how that felt man like how i mean we felt like we made it we felt i mean we felt like we made it we felt i mean we felt like we made it we felt like we were balling and we weren't like we were balling and we weren't like we were balling and we weren't paying ourselves we were paying ourselves we were paying ourselves we were still operating on pretty minimal still operating on pretty minimal still operating on pretty minimal resources but it was a big moment

resources but it was a big moment resources but it was a big moment yeah it felt like it it took forever uh yeah it felt like it it took forever uh yeah it felt like it it took forever uh to get there and then lots of tweaks and to get there and then lots of tweaks and to get there and then lots of tweaks and listening and conversations uh listening and conversations uh listening and conversations uh to even have a shot at doing that and to even have a shot at doing that and to even have a shot at doing that and yeah that that was a huge milestone for yeah that that was a huge milestone for yeah that that was a huge milestone for us so us so us so and it started to feel validating and it started to feel validating and it started to feel validating because like more uh because like more uh because like more uh other companies entrepreneurs fellow other companies entrepreneurs fellow other companies entrepreneurs fellow founders that we talked to like founders that we talked to like founders that we talked to like it was like oh okay 10k like you know it was like oh okay 10k like you know it was like oh okay 10k like you know good job boys finally good job boys finally good job boys finally yeah yeah later i felt like we were yeah yeah later i felt like we were yeah yeah later i felt like we were clawing our ways there clawing our ways there clawing our ways there calling our way there so uh fast forward calling our way there so uh fast forward calling our way there so uh fast forward to uh about a year to uh about a year to uh about a year so a year later may 2020 we hit so a year later may 2020 we hit so a year later may 2020 we hit 100k mrr and uh so much has changed and 100k mrr and uh so much has changed and 100k mrr and uh so much has changed and continues to evolve and i think that's continues to evolve and i think that's continues to evolve and i think that's what's really fun about the journey is what's really fun about the journey is what's really fun about the journey is is how things have changed and evolved is how things have changed and evolved is how things have changed and evolved and we're going to walk you through some and we're going to walk you through some and we're going to walk you through some of the main reasons why we think we of the main reasons why we think we of the main reasons why we think we reach this reach this reach this point and yeah just go over how it happened happened all right so after all right so after all right so after lots of reflection and kind of soul lots of reflection and kind of soul lots of reflection and kind of soul searching searching searching and really trying to unpack that that and really trying to unpack that that and really trying to unpack that that journey journey journey uh which we do as a practice kind of uh which we do as a practice kind of uh which we do as a practice kind of ongoing but but this opportunity ongoing but but this opportunity ongoing but but this opportunity uh to speak with you today really uh was uh to speak with you today really uh was uh to speak with you today really uh was it was a great forcing function to look it was a great forcing function to look it was a great forcing function to look at this more deeply at this more deeply at this more deeply and that's really where we we realized and that's really where we we realized and that's really where we we realized that our story that our story that our story of this rapid growth really arcs across

of this rapid growth really arcs across of this rapid growth really arcs across these three chapters of focus these three chapters of focus these three chapters of focus reputation and the final chapter reputation and the final chapter reputation and the final chapter the final chapter we're going to keep as the final chapter we're going to keep as the final chapter we're going to keep as a surprise so we'll keep you in suspense a surprise so we'll keep you in suspense a surprise so we'll keep you in suspense temporarily on that but uh stick with us temporarily on that but uh stick with us temporarily on that but uh stick with us it'll be it'll be worth your while yeah hopefully our marketing folks out yeah hopefully our marketing folks out there can appreciate the uh mystique there can appreciate the uh mystique there can appreciate the uh mystique tactic so the first one uh focus so to be quite so the first one uh focus so to be quite candid the candid the candid the original vision for squad cast was more original vision for squad cast was more original vision for squad cast was more or less pretty similar to to what it is or less pretty similar to to what it is or less pretty similar to to what it is today today today however it was a bit inflated we were however it was a bit inflated we were however it was a bit inflated we were kind of trying to do kind of trying to do kind of trying to do a little too much to be honest a little too much to be honest a little too much to be honest thankfully we're really fortunate to get thankfully we're really fortunate to get thankfully we're really fortunate to get great advice from great advice from great advice from our advisors our customers and really our advisors our customers and really our advisors our customers and really what they told us was what they told us was what they told us was we don't need you to be good at we don't need you to be good at we don't need you to be good at everything we need you to focus on this everything we need you to focus on this everything we need you to focus on this one one one thing and that is being experts at thing and that is being experts at thing and that is being experts at remote recording and really helping remote recording and really helping remote recording and really helping the industry and and the creators in the the industry and and the creators in the the industry and and the creators in the space really understand space really understand space really understand what that is like whether they're using what that is like whether they're using what that is like whether they're using squad cast or not there's a lot of squad cast or not there's a lot of squad cast or not there's a lot of opportunities for us to help and of opportunities for us to help and of opportunities for us to help and of course you know we think once we can course you know we think once we can course you know we think once we can build up that reputation that build up that reputation that build up that reputation that um you know that they'll come to us um you know that they'll come to us um you know that they'll come to us because we are the the experts when it because we are the the experts when it because we are the the experts when it comes to comes to comes to recording their content remotely um so recording their content remotely um so recording their content remotely um so really what they really what they really what they guided us to understanding was that was guided us to understanding was that was guided us to understanding was that was our role uh it wasn't intuitive our role uh it wasn't intuitive our role uh it wasn't intuitive to us at first but it was really about to us at first but it was really about to us at first but it was really about us really uh putting our flag in the us really uh putting our flag in the us really uh putting our flag in the ground as as ground as as ground as as establishing ourselves as experts so one establishing ourselves as experts so one establishing ourselves as experts so one of the state the sayings that's really of the state the sayings that's really of the state the sayings that's really stuck with me over the years is one that

stuck with me over the years is one that stuck with me over the years is one that dan martell says which is dan martell says which is dan martell says which is startups typically died not from startups typically died not from startups typically died not from indigestion but due to starvation or not indigestion but due to starvation or not indigestion but due to starvation or not from starvation but due to indigestion from starvation but due to indigestion from starvation but due to indigestion so it's too much ideas too much going on so it's too much ideas too much going on so it's too much ideas too much going on um not a lack of ideas which is kind of um not a lack of ideas which is kind of um not a lack of ideas which is kind of funny because at least at first when we funny because at least at first when we funny because at least at first when we were trying to were trying to were trying to you know start off squad cast or i know you know start off squad cast or i know you know start off squad cast or i know you and me separately were each trying you and me separately were each trying you and me separately were each trying to do something more entrepreneurial and to do something more entrepreneurial and to do something more entrepreneurial and independent it's like independent it's like independent it's like what's going to be that idea and it what's going to be that idea and it what's going to be that idea and it turns out that's turns out that's turns out that's not the hard part um yeah so not the hard part um yeah so not the hard part um yeah so in addition to that though we we also in addition to that though we we also in addition to that though we we also learned that we needed to focus not just learned that we needed to focus not just learned that we needed to focus not just on being experts on being experts on being experts in this particular niche of podcasting in this particular niche of podcasting in this particular niche of podcasting but also that we're but also that we're but also that we're we're sas founders we're bootstrap sas we're sas founders we're bootstrap sas we're sas founders we're bootstrap sas founders so really focusing on founders so really focusing on founders so really focusing on becoming professionals at being sas becoming professionals at being sas becoming professionals at being sas founders specifically bootstrap founders specifically bootstrap founders specifically bootstrap uh sas founders so we did that by uh sas founders so we did that by uh sas founders so we did that by learning from the greats learning from the greats learning from the greats and really not just taking in that and really not just taking in that and really not just taking in that knowledge but like knowledge but like knowledge but like applying that knowledge like almost applying that knowledge like almost applying that knowledge like almost immediately one of the things that immediately one of the things that immediately one of the things that i don't know if you could call it a i don't know if you could call it a i don't know if you could call it a mantra or just a saying that we say a mantra or just a saying that we say a mantra or just a saying that we say a lot it's not ours so we're not trying to lot it's not ours so we're not trying to lot it's not ours so we're not trying to take it from anybody but it's called take it from anybody but it's called take it from anybody but it's called just in time learning that just in time learning that just in time learning that as things kind of come up during the as things kind of come up during the as things kind of come up during the founder entrepreneur journey founder entrepreneur journey founder entrepreneur journey you can't know everything but we got to you can't know everything but we got to you can't know everything but we got to get comfortable with at least learning get comfortable with at least learning get comfortable with at least learning on the fly and so on the fly and so on the fly and so like understanding key topics like our like understanding key topics like our like understanding key topics like our unit economics unit economics unit economics like pricing i mean we wouldn't be in like pricing i mean we wouldn't be in like pricing i mean we wouldn't be in this position today if we hadn't this position today if we hadn't this position today if we hadn't really taken it upon ourselves to really really taken it upon ourselves to really really taken it upon ourselves to really learn about those things because learn about those things because learn about those things because pricing was one of those things that

pricing was one of those things that pricing was one of those things that guys like rob wallin are always telling guys like rob wallin are always telling guys like rob wallin are always telling you it's a big deal it's one of those you it's a big deal it's one of those you it's a big deal it's one of those levers that you can pull and and truly levers that you can pull and and truly levers that you can pull and and truly transform transform transform uh transform the business and and it it uh transform the business and and it it uh transform the business and and it it did like our revenue went up as you can did like our revenue went up as you can did like our revenue went up as you can imagine but our churn went down imagine but our churn went down imagine but our churn went down it's it's exactly what they say another it's it's exactly what they say another it's it's exactly what they say another one is like kind of figuring out our one is like kind of figuring out our one is like kind of figuring out our customer support customer support customer support especially relative to the type of especially relative to the type of especially relative to the type of business model you have so our business model you have so our business model you have so our our business model is a little bit on our business model is a little bit on our business model is a little bit on the lower price side the lower price side the lower price side but we were delivering high-touch but we were delivering high-touch but we were delivering high-touch customer support which customer support which customer support which can't scale and that it was never can't scale and that it was never can't scale and that it was never designed to scale it was designed to designed to scale it was designed to designed to scale it was designed to build relationships but build relationships but build relationships but just understanding the whys and um and just understanding the whys and um and just understanding the whys and um and learning from it learning from it learning from it and again like learning from it is one and again like learning from it is one and again like learning from it is one thing but actually implementing it is thing but actually implementing it is thing but actually implementing it is way harder i mean how how difficult was way harder i mean how how difficult was way harder i mean how how difficult was it to it to it to not just figure out what our pricing was not just figure out what our pricing was not just figure out what our pricing was but actually put it into place but actually put it into place but actually put it into place but boy was it worth it right difficult but boy was it worth it right difficult but boy was it worth it right difficult yeah yeah yeah one word and uh now as part of tiny seed one word and uh now as part of tiny seed one word and uh now as part of tiny seed uh uh uh we're seeing that have an impact uh we're seeing that have an impact uh we're seeing that have an impact uh again on the next iteration of our again on the next iteration of our again on the next iteration of our pricing pricing pricing but uh but with our peer companies uh but uh but with our peer companies uh but uh but with our peer companies uh that inspire us by uh by making these that inspire us by uh by making these that inspire us by uh by making these these uh improvements as well so uh these uh improvements as well so uh these uh improvements as well so uh so as founders like uh like all of you so as founders like uh like all of you so as founders like uh like all of you and and and us we're a finite and valuable resource us we're a finite and valuable resource us we're a finite and valuable resource so please don't waste any of your time so please don't waste any of your time so please don't waste any of your time working on stuff something that doesn't working on stuff something that doesn't working on stuff something that doesn't matter matter matter but zach you might be saying how do we but zach you might be saying how do we but zach you might be saying how do we know know know what matters right that's over what matters right that's over what matters right that's over simplistic um simplistic um simplistic um so much has been said about founders so much has been said about founders so much has been said about founders having having having extreme passion for the work that

extreme passion for the work that extreme passion for the work that they're doing they're doing they're doing but um i i would challenge you there or but um i i would challenge you there or but um i i would challenge you there or submit that submit that submit that what what about your customers like do what what about your customers like do what what about your customers like do they have passion they have passion they have passion for the problem that you're working to for the problem that you're working to for the problem that you're working to solve for them solve for them solve for them if that's not the case then it probably if that's not the case then it probably if that's not the case then it probably doesn't matter that's probably doesn't matter that's probably doesn't matter that's probably a good indicator so uh the base a good indicator so uh the base a good indicator so uh the base camp team who we're big fans of uh camp team who we're big fans of uh camp team who we're big fans of uh coined the term coined the term coined the term jomo and uh we love that so jomo and uh we love that so jomo and uh we love that so as a result of intense focus as a result of intense focus as a result of intense focus one result i should say of intense focus one result i should say of intense focus one result i should say of intense focus is that is that is that you will for sure miss out on other you will for sure miss out on other you will for sure miss out on other opportunities opportunities opportunities and that's okay just accept that now or and that's okay just accept that now or and that's okay just accept that now or we have anyway we have anyway we have anyway what's joe mommy uh the joy of missing what's joe mommy uh the joy of missing what's joe mommy uh the joy of missing out excuse me yeah out excuse me yeah out excuse me yeah so kind of the kind of a different take so kind of the kind of a different take so kind of the kind of a different take on fomo on fomo on fomo um so we have had plenty of huge um so we have had plenty of huge um so we have had plenty of huge opportunities opportunities opportunities and potential game-changing ideas and potential game-changing ideas and potential game-changing ideas pitches from pitches from pitches from vcs on pivot to this and we'll fund you vcs on pivot to this and we'll fund you vcs on pivot to this and we'll fund you or do this other thing at the same time or do this other thing at the same time or do this other thing at the same time in squad in squad in squad cast um so we've we've had those those cast um so we've we've had those those cast um so we've we've had those those ideas ideas ideas uh for for other sas companies um but uh for for other sas companies um but uh for for other sas companies um but we've not we've not we've not pursued any of them with intention um pursued any of them with intention um pursued any of them with intention um and i should say yet because we're and i should say yet because we're and i should say yet because we're focused focused focused because we're focused on realizing our because we're focused on realizing our because we're focused on realizing our potential within squad cast that's potential within squad cast that's potential within squad cast that's that's the opportunity at hand that's the opportunity at hand that's the opportunity at hand so one thing about focus is uh so one thing about focus is uh so one thing about focus is uh that is a constant struggle to maintain that is a constant struggle to maintain that is a constant struggle to maintain focus focus focus so i would recommend that you stay

so i would recommend that you stay so i would recommend that you stay mindful check in with yourself mindful check in with yourself mindful check in with yourself and just keep saying no to stuff that and just keep saying no to stuff that and just keep saying no to stuff that doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter using that same approach that we shared using that same approach that we shared using that same approach that we shared before yeah one of the things we said is like yeah one of the things we said is like the bootstrappers way is just inevitably the bootstrappers way is just inevitably the bootstrappers way is just inevitably to get good at saying no to get good at saying no to get good at saying no yeah yeah so uh so we have reputation yeah yeah so uh so we have reputation yeah yeah so uh so we have reputation um so if the problems you are solving um so if the problems you are solving um so if the problems you are solving they do matter to customers then there's they do matter to customers then there's they do matter to customers then there's likely going to be a community of people likely going to be a community of people likely going to be a community of people who that matters to and we're all here who that matters to and we're all here who that matters to and we're all here because because because we're bootstrapping which also means we're bootstrapping which also means we're bootstrapping which also means that we're investors that we're investors that we're investors in ourselves so invest the resources in ourselves so invest the resources in ourselves so invest the resources that you have that you have that you have not just in your business keep doing not just in your business keep doing not just in your business keep doing that but also that but also that but also into the community that you're in into the community that you're in into the community that you're in service of service of service of and you can do that by hosting meetups and you can do that by hosting meetups and you can do that by hosting meetups by sponsoring conferences like this one by sponsoring conferences like this one by sponsoring conferences like this one and uh and just generally fostering and uh and just generally fostering and uh and just generally fostering conversations conversations conversations and we're a bit biased but we think that and we're a bit biased but we think that and we're a bit biased but we think that podcasting is a great way to have an podcasting is a great way to have an podcasting is a great way to have an ongoing dialogue with on uh within the ongoing dialogue with on uh within the ongoing dialogue with on uh within the topic topic topic that you're an expert in and you're that you're an expert in and you're that you're an expert in and you're helping serve customers in helping serve customers in helping serve customers in so um if your customers are more so um if your customers are more so um if your customers are more involved involved involved in in this community than your company in in this community than your company in in this community than your company is is is then you're probably not that's probably then you're probably not that's probably then you're probably not that's probably an indicator that you're not an indicator that you're not an indicator that you're not investing enough so you want to invest investing enough so you want to invest investing enough so you want to invest more than them more than them more than them and uh and that'll also help position and uh and that'll also help position and uh and that'll also help position you within the the you within the the you within the the their minds as being you know part of

their minds as being you know part of their minds as being you know part of this industry part of this this new this industry part of this this new this industry part of this this new category that you're working to create category that you're working to create category that you're working to create so it's important to speak with your so it's important to speak with your so it's important to speak with your community community community but it is more important it's paramount but it is more important it's paramount but it is more important it's paramount in fact that you you listen in fact that you you listen in fact that you you listen when you're having these these when you're having these these when you're having these these conversations i think our friend colleen conversations i think our friend colleen conversations i think our friend colleen uh mentioned listening is is critical to uh mentioned listening is is critical to uh mentioned listening is is critical to their business it's been critical to their business it's been critical to their business it's been critical to ours we often say that uh ours we often say that uh ours we often say that uh in an industry full of people who speak in an industry full of people who speak in an industry full of people who speak for a living our superpower needs to be for a living our superpower needs to be for a living our superpower needs to be listening to them so we practice that listening to them so we practice that listening to them so we practice that and while you're investing in the and while you're investing in the and while you're investing in the community community community it's it's a good idea to listen more it's it's a good idea to listen more it's it's a good idea to listen more than you speak than you speak than you speak like help catalyze these conversations like help catalyze these conversations like help catalyze these conversations but then listen but then listen but then listen the community will then invest feedback the community will then invest feedback the community will then invest feedback and ideas and ideas and ideas into your product and uh don't into your product and uh don't into your product and uh don't don't stop there don't stop with don't stop there don't stop with don't stop there don't stop with listening uh put it into practice listening uh put it into practice listening uh put it into practice actually do actually do actually do what they are telling you to do and then what they are telling you to do and then what they are telling you to do and then and this is kind of magical then you get and this is kind of magical then you get and this is kind of magical then you get to tell this story to tell this story to tell this story to other people and you get to give to other people and you get to give to other people and you get to give those customers those those customers those those customers those community members credit for that idea community members credit for that idea community members credit for that idea and you can keep going through this and you can keep going through this and you can keep going through this cycle and you keep doing that until you cycle and you keep doing that until you cycle and you keep doing that until you stop counting stop counting stop counting and your product will have improved and your product will have improved and your product will have improved dramatically dramatically dramatically and the community will love you because and the community will love you because and the community will love you because of the roi they got on their investment of the roi they got on their investment of the roi they got on their investment of ideas and feedback yeah i think another big part of how we yeah i think another big part of how we developed our reputation developed our reputation developed our reputation within the space was uh really how what

within the space was uh really how what within the space was uh really how what our approach our approach our approach to managing what was in our control and to managing what was in our control and to managing what was in our control and that's what i mean by that's what i mean by that's what i mean by what we mean rather by show up every day what we mean rather by show up every day what we mean rather by show up every day uh it uh it uh it sounds kind of cliche and just like not sounds kind of cliche and just like not sounds kind of cliche and just like not specific but like specific but like specific but like we've just experienced so many magical we've just experienced so many magical we've just experienced so many magical things just by things just by things just by showing up every day and also the fact showing up every day and also the fact showing up every day and also the fact that like our competition just that like our competition just that like our competition just does not so we just saw it as a way of does not so we just saw it as a way of does not so we just saw it as a way of like like like showing our passion about the problems showing our passion about the problems showing our passion about the problems we're solving and how we solve customers we're solving and how we solve customers we're solving and how we solve customers like like like taking that opportunity any way that we taking that opportunity any way that we taking that opportunity any way that we can because it's really easy to show up can because it's really easy to show up can because it's really easy to show up when when when customers are happy but when showing up customers are happy but when showing up customers are happy but when showing up actually matters the most we've found is actually matters the most we've found is actually matters the most we've found is is when they're unhappy so kind of like is when they're unhappy so kind of like is when they're unhappy so kind of like what zack was talking about was that we what zack was talking about was that we what zack was talking about was that we found found found that those are the opportunities to that those are the opportunities to that those are the opportunities to build the most positive reputation build the most positive reputation build the most positive reputation by figuring out to make it uh right and by figuring out to make it uh right and by figuring out to make it uh right and excuse me those people that were our excuse me those people that were our excuse me those people that were our biggest critics we've time and time biggest critics we've time and time biggest critics we've time and time again turned them into again turned them into again turned them into uh our biggest fans and so we kind of uh our biggest fans and so we kind of uh our biggest fans and so we kind of almost seen it as like almost seen it as like almost seen it as like somewhat of a repeatable process but somewhat of a repeatable process but somewhat of a repeatable process but over time over time over time we believe this mindset of showing up uh we believe this mindset of showing up uh we believe this mindset of showing up uh over time over time over time yields similar benefits as like compound yields similar benefits as like compound yields similar benefits as like compound interest and that investment over interest and that investment over interest and that investment over time money and going wherever necessary time money and going wherever necessary time money and going wherever necessary built up a built up a built up a significant amount of social equity that significant amount of social equity that significant amount of social equity that we believe really contribute we believe really contribute we believe really contribute contributed to our final chapter and contributed to our final chapter and contributed to our final chapter and what's that final chapter what's that final chapter what's that final chapter yeah so a bit of a bit of a drum roll yeah so a bit of a bit of a drum roll yeah so a bit of a bit of a drum roll here please here please here please all right and

all right and all right and there we go all right it's luck so there we go all right it's luck so there we go all right it's luck so to be honest there's in our opinion no to be honest there's in our opinion no to be honest there's in our opinion no getting around the fact that getting around the fact that getting around the fact that our growth was significantly impacted our growth was significantly impacted our growth was significantly impacted by some strange fortune uh by some strange fortune uh by some strange fortune uh several people in our network whether several people in our network whether several people in our network whether they were advisors or customers or just they were advisors or customers or just they were advisors or customers or just like like like other founders investors they would other founders investors they would other founders investors they would always talk about startups always talk about startups always talk about startups having some sort of inflection point or having some sort of inflection point or having some sort of inflection point or moment when moment when moment when you know they just had it just things you know they just had it just things you know they just had it just things change for them change for them change for them uh and so we would just always wonder uh and so we would just always wonder uh and so we would just always wonder when's our time coming it seems like when's our time coming it seems like when's our time coming it seems like things are going good we're hitting 10k things are going good we're hitting 10k things are going good we're hitting 10k mrr mrr mrr continuing to grow it's going good but continuing to grow it's going good but continuing to grow it's going good but it's it's it's it's not like we're not nothing's gone it's not like we're not nothing's gone it's not like we're not nothing's gone viral yet if you will viral yet if you will viral yet if you will um and so we're just one of those many um and so we're just one of those many um and so we're just one of those many stories stories stories of a crazy opportunity and shelter in of a crazy opportunity and shelter in of a crazy opportunity and shelter in place place place was ours so suddenly content creators was ours so suddenly content creators was ours so suddenly content creators across the world were in desperate need across the world were in desperate need across the world were in desperate need of a high quality remote solution to of a high quality remote solution to of a high quality remote solution to keep their production on schedule and keep their production on schedule and keep their production on schedule and thankfully squad cast had already thankfully squad cast had already thankfully squad cast had already built up this reputation as being really built up this reputation as being really built up this reputation as being really focused on focused on focused on uh recording quality content remotely uh recording quality content remotely uh recording quality content remotely um so i don't know if you remember man um so i don't know if you remember man um so i don't know if you remember man but like back in march but like back in march but like back in march uh getting on the phone and just being uh getting on the phone and just being uh getting on the phone and just being like holy like holy like holy f word is this is this happening is this f word is this is this happening is this f word is this is this happening is this is this it and then what were you saying is this it and then what were you saying is this it and then what were you saying this is it this is it this is it yeah i think it is so uh a little crazy yeah i think it is so uh a little crazy yeah i think it is so uh a little crazy and and not lost on us that like we are and and not lost on us that like we are and and not lost on us that like we are fortunate and fortunate and fortunate and and but uh i don't think our story is

and but uh i don't think our story is and but uh i don't think our story is necessarily that exceptional because necessarily that exceptional because necessarily that exceptional because there's other people that are benefiting there's other people that are benefiting there's other people that are benefiting and having and having and having success in this as well but success in this as well but success in this as well but anthony bourdain who we're a big fan of anthony bourdain who we're a big fan of anthony bourdain who we're a big fan of and i know he's not a startup founder so and i know he's not a startup founder so and i know he's not a startup founder so i have no idea what the context of this i have no idea what the context of this i have no idea what the context of this quote was in quote was in quote was in but he uh was quoted of saying luck is but he uh was quoted of saying luck is but he uh was quoted of saying luck is not a business model not a business model not a business model and we agree with him so but we believe and we agree with him so but we believe and we agree with him so but we believe our luck was only realized our luck was only realized our luck was only realized uh because we were so focused on being uh because we were so focused on being uh because we were so focused on being the best at something that mattered the best at something that mattered the best at something that mattered and had built up a reputation uh for and had built up a reputation uh for and had built up a reputation uh for when our time come when our time come when our time come came yeah and uh came yeah and uh came yeah and uh about luck you know as far as we know uh about luck you know as far as we know uh about luck you know as far as we know uh in inflections in inflections in inflections inflection points they can't really be inflection points they can't really be inflection points they can't really be designed or engineered designed or engineered designed or engineered sidenote if you feel otherwise we're sidenote if you feel otherwise we're sidenote if you feel otherwise we're happy to explore that happy to explore that happy to explore that but what you can design and engineer is but what you can design and engineer is but what you can design and engineer is in preparation for those inflection in preparation for those inflection in preparation for those inflection points to come points to come points to come so why did we sponsor the largest so why did we sponsor the largest so why did we sponsor the largest conference conference conference in our industry before we even had a in our industry before we even had a in our industry before we even had a stable product or any customers stable product or any customers stable product or any customers why did we need to build a global cloud why did we need to build a global cloud why did we need to build a global cloud infrastructure with microservices infrastructure with microservices infrastructure with microservices built to scale when we only had like 50 built to scale when we only had like 50 built to scale when we only had like 50 customers customers customers so much of the work that we did before so much of the work that we did before so much of the work that we did before shelter in place felt like extreme shelter in place felt like extreme shelter in place felt like extreme overkill overkill overkill but in reality it wasn't um because we but in reality it wasn't um because we but in reality it wasn't um because we were ready for when were ready for when were ready for when luck found us so look at where you are luck found us so look at where you are luck found us so look at where you are each day and ask yourself each day and ask yourself each day and ask yourself what would break if we were to 10x

what would break if we were to 10x what would break if we were to 10x tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow like i was just talking with my wife like i was just talking with my wife like i was just talking with my wife over the weekend and over the weekend and over the weekend and it's like are you ready to explode you it's like are you ready to explode you it's like are you ready to explode you know that's know that's know that's that's a strange question but that's that's a strange question but that's that's a strange question but that's essentially another way to say it essentially another way to say it essentially another way to say it so make those improvements now so make those improvements now so make those improvements now uh ask yourself that question make a uh ask yourself that question make a uh ask yourself that question make a list do those improvements keep list do those improvements keep list do those improvements keep repeating that repeating that repeating that and take your startup seriously i know and take your startup seriously i know and take your startup seriously i know you all do you all do you all do but take it more seriously and have but take it more seriously and have but take it more seriously and have intentions intentions intentions to grow it be ready to explode to grow it be ready to explode to grow it be ready to explode so what are you doing all of this hard so what are you doing all of this hard so what are you doing all of this hard work for if work for if work for if you're not expecting that growth is even you're not expecting that growth is even you're not expecting that growth is even another way to put it all right so the big question is is what all right so the big question is is what now well now well now well i mean we're certainly not done yet as i mean we're certainly not done yet as i mean we're certainly not done yet as as proud as we are of as proud as we are of as proud as we are of our accomplishments in many ways we our accomplishments in many ways we our accomplishments in many ways we still feel like we're just getting still feel like we're just getting still feel like we're just getting started and there's so many things left started and there's so many things left started and there's so many things left to accomplish which i guess is the to accomplish which i guess is the to accomplish which i guess is the beauty and the beast of beauty and the beast of beauty and the beast of of this whole game that we're in uh but of this whole game that we're in uh but of this whole game that we're in uh but we have learned that we have learned that we have learned that what got us to 10k is not what got us to what got us to 10k is not what got us to what got us to 10k is not what got us to to to to 100k i mean you know think about how 100k i mean you know think about how 100k i mean you know think about how different our jobs different our jobs different our jobs day to day are from just a couple months day to day are from just a couple months day to day are from just a couple months ago it's it's continuing to evolve and ago it's it's continuing to evolve and ago it's it's continuing to evolve and change and change and change and something i think we're learning to something i think we're learning to something i think we're learning to embrace and really uh get excited about embrace and really uh get excited about embrace and really uh get excited about even though even though even though uh you know change isn't always the uh you know change isn't always the uh you know change isn't always the easiest thing to deal with easiest thing to deal with easiest thing to deal with but we do feel like the same is going to but we do feel like the same is going to but we do feel like the same is going to be true for when we hit that be true for when we hit that be true for when we hit that 1 million mrr amount or beyond 1 million mrr amount or beyond 1 million mrr amount or beyond yeah and we have some really good ideas yeah and we have some really good ideas yeah and we have some really good ideas we built up and are continuing to build

we built up and are continuing to build we built up and are continuing to build a really great team a really great team a really great team uh to prepare for that tomorrow uh to prepare for that tomorrow uh to prepare for that tomorrow today and um if if we and um if if we if we if we would not be able to get if we if we would not be able to get if we if we would not be able to get there there there without focus reputation and luck to without focus reputation and luck to without focus reputation and luck to this next milestone this next milestone this next milestone beyond where we're headed so thank you beyond where we're headed so thank you beyond where we're headed so thank you all so much for all so much for all so much for for listening to us today and making for listening to us today and making for listening to us today and making this event really great this event really great this event really great uh we we've had a great time learning uh we we've had a great time learning uh we we've had a great time learning from everybody and we hope the same is from everybody and we hope the same is from everybody and we hope the same is true for you gentlemen thank you so much just a gentlemen thank you so much just a reminder to folks reminder to folks reminder to folks in shindig feel free to ask your in shindig feel free to ask your in shindig feel free to ask your questions in the chat it looks like it questions in the chat it looks like it questions in the chat it looks like it looks like we have quite a few questions looks like we have quite a few questions looks like we have quite a few questions already pouring in already pouring in already pouring in um i'm going to kick us off with first um i'm going to kick us off with first um i'm going to kick us off with first question question question did you guys ever launch that sci-fi did you guys ever launch that sci-fi did you guys ever launch that sci-fi audio drama audio drama audio drama tell you have uh we do have a podcast tell you have uh we do have a podcast tell you have uh we do have a podcast though called between two mics where we though called between two mics where we though called between two mics where we explore the and have conversations with explore the and have conversations with explore the and have conversations with people people people that are helping to advance podcasting that are helping to advance podcasting that are helping to advance podcasting forward in different ways uh forward in different ways uh forward in different ways uh audio dramas science fiction are are a audio dramas science fiction are are a audio dramas science fiction are are a big part of that but we also talk about big part of that but we also talk about big part of that but we also talk about the technology the technology the technology and just a general momentum podcasting and just a general momentum podcasting and just a general momentum podcasting being a relatively new medium being a relatively new medium being a relatively new medium has all sorts of opportunities for for has all sorts of opportunities for for has all sorts of opportunities for for innovation and innovation and innovation and some of that science fiction is is some of that science fiction is is some of that science fiction is is becoming science facts so we're proud to becoming science facts so we're proud to becoming science facts so we're proud to play a small part in that play a small part in that play a small part in that very cool if you ever launch it i want very cool if you ever launch it i want very cool if you ever launch it i want to check it out so to check it out so to check it out so first question we got one subscriber

first question we got one subscriber first question we got one subscriber yeah and we have uh yeah and we have uh yeah and we have uh we've made more connections and friends we've made more connections and friends we've made more connections and friends who are actually turns out podcasts like who are actually turns out podcasts like who are actually turns out podcasts like that are a tremendous amount of work i that are a tremendous amount of work i that are a tremendous amount of work i mean mean mean you know rob with uh with your media you know rob with uh with your media you know rob with uh with your media production production production uh an interview podcast is uh is a lot uh an interview podcast is uh is a lot uh an interview podcast is uh is a lot of work but uh of work but uh of work but uh scripted drama with voice actors all scripted drama with voice actors all scripted drama with voice actors all over the world yeah over the world yeah over the world yeah but thankfully our technology solution but thankfully our technology solution but thankfully our technology solution is there to uh to keep the quality up is there to uh to keep the quality up is there to uh to keep the quality up indeed so first question from the indeed so first question from the indeed so first question from the audience deep asks audience deep asks audience deep asks zack without any previous references of zack without any previous references of zack without any previous references of success how did you stay on a path to success how did you stay on a path to success how did you stay on a path to solid growth did you put your eyes on solid growth did you put your eyes on solid growth did you put your eyes on 100k mrr or was it more wing it 100k mrr or was it more wing it 100k mrr or was it more wing it more a wing it playful approach to see more a wing it playful approach to see more a wing it playful approach to see how far you got how far you got how far you got and then he has a separate question for and then he has a separate question for and then he has a separate question for rock but i feel like either of you could rock but i feel like either of you could rock but i feel like either of you could answer that yeah answer that yeah answer that yeah these you know yeah yeah it's good um these you know yeah yeah it's good um these you know yeah yeah it's good um i i would not say it was wing it i would i i would not say it was wing it i would i i would not say it was wing it i would say that it's uh you know milestone say that it's uh you know milestone say that it's uh you know milestone uh reassess you know reach a milestone uh reassess you know reach a milestone uh reassess you know reach a milestone reassess what's next what's what do we reassess what's next what's what do we reassess what's next what's what do we think it's gonna take to get us there think it's gonna take to get us there think it's gonna take to get us there what are kind of the bottlenecks what are kind of the bottlenecks what are kind of the bottlenecks to that today what's our path to remove to that today what's our path to remove to that today what's our path to remove those those those and also then um like what are the and also then um like what are the and also then um like what are the resources we have resources we have resources we have now because that's another thing that's now because that's another thing that's now because that's another thing that's evolving it's not just a new set of evolving it's not just a new set of evolving it's not just a new set of challenges it's a new set of challenges it's a new set of challenges it's a new set of opportunities opportunities opportunities that come from your new mrr having that come from your new mrr having that come from your new mrr having reached that you can reached that you can reached that you can use those resources to add invest use those resources to add invest use those resources to add invest further into your business further into further into your business further into further into your business further into the community the community the community and just continue uh continuing that and just continue uh continuing that and just continue uh continuing that cycle cycle cycle i think is more so how we look at it i think is more so how we look at it i think is more so how we look at it it's just that there's more zeros now it's just that there's more zeros now it's just that there's more zeros now uh it's it's it's kind of a trip but

uh it's it's it's kind of a trip but uh it's it's it's kind of a trip but that that's our process that that's our process that that's our process and if i could just add it's kind of and if i could just add it's kind of and if i could just add it's kind of similar to the advice we give to similar to the advice we give to similar to the advice we give to podcasters that have interview shows podcasters that have interview shows podcasters that have interview shows where they ask like where they ask like where they ask like should i have like a script of all these should i have like a script of all these should i have like a script of all these detailed questions i want or is it detailed questions i want or is it detailed questions i want or is it better to wing it better to wing it better to wing it what do you think is best what we found what do you think is best what we found what do you think is best what we found is somewhere in the middle having an is somewhere in the middle having an is somewhere in the middle having an outline of where you want to go some outline of where you want to go some outline of where you want to go some type of road map if you will type of road map if you will type of road map if you will but leaving yourself freedom for things but leaving yourself freedom for things but leaving yourself freedom for things to come up some creativity like you to come up some creativity like you to come up some creativity like you never know what's never know what's never know what's what's going to happen like we didn't what's going to happen like we didn't what's going to happen like we didn't know shelter in place would just know shelter in place would just know shelter in place would just put us in a position where we had to put us in a position where we had to put us in a position where we had to handle just a surge of handle just a surge of handle just a surge of new podcasters or experienced podcasters new podcasters or experienced podcasters new podcasters or experienced podcasters that need to record their shows remotely that need to record their shows remotely that need to record their shows remotely yeah i like to think of it because when yeah i like to think of it because when yeah i like to think of it because when i record a podcast interview i do have i record a podcast interview i do have i record a podcast interview i do have an outline of questions i'm going to ask an outline of questions i'm going to ask an outline of questions i'm going to ask but i almost never stick to that outline but i almost never stick to that outline but i almost never stick to that outline i'll also i'll also i'll also i'll either skip them or i'll insert i'll either skip them or i'll insert i'll either skip them or i'll insert additional ones additional ones additional ones uh you know based on what someone says i uh you know based on what someone says i uh you know based on what someone says i like to think of it as if i'm going to like to think of it as if i'm going to like to think of it as if i'm going to drive from la to new york i know that drive from la to new york i know that drive from la to new york i know that i'm going east i'm going east i'm going east i don't know if i'm going the south i don't know if i'm going the south i don't know if i'm going the south route or the north route there's all route or the north route there's all route or the north route there's all these different places i could go these different places i could go these different places i could go through but in general i know where i'm through but in general i know where i'm through but in general i know where i'm going and then going and then going and then you just don't know how fast you're you just don't know how fast you're you just don't know how fast you're going to go and exactly what roads going to go and exactly what roads going to go and exactly what roads you're going to take right i think you're going to take right i think you're going to take right i think that's a decent metaphor for it that's a decent metaphor for it that's a decent metaphor for it totally um next question from deep um he totally um next question from deep um he totally um next question from deep um he addressed it to rock but again i feel addressed it to rock but again i feel addressed it to rock but again i feel like either you could ask it like either you could ask it like either you could ask it he said rock you mentioned learning from he said rock you mentioned learning from he said rock you mentioned learning from the greats plus just in time the greats plus just in time the greats plus just in time learning can you elaborate on that what learning can you elaborate on that what learning can you elaborate on that what specifically worked really well for you specifically worked really well for you specifically worked really well for you with regards to learning with regards to learning with regards to learning with regard to learnings yeah so when we with regard to learnings yeah so when we with regard to learnings yeah so when we first first first started squad cast we didn't really know started squad cast we didn't really know started squad cast we didn't really know what we were what we were what we were becoming a part of in the sense of a becoming a part of in the sense of a becoming a part of in the sense of a community we didn't know like

community we didn't know like community we didn't know like bootstrapping was this whole thing and bootstrapping was this whole thing and bootstrapping was this whole thing and we didn't know any podcasters well we didn't know any podcasters well we didn't know any podcasters well that too yeah so we just would go to that too yeah so we just would go to that too yeah so we just would go to wherever those people were that were wherever those people were that were wherever those people were that were either either either you know experienced sas founders like you know experienced sas founders like you know experienced sas founders like like you rob dan martell like you rob dan martell like you rob dan martell or you know some of the more specific or you know some of the more specific or you know some of the more specific stuff like uh stuff like uh stuff like uh patrick campbell from profitwell they do patrick campbell from profitwell they do patrick campbell from profitwell they do a bunch of stuff on pricing so when we a bunch of stuff on pricing so when we a bunch of stuff on pricing so when we needed to learn pricing needed to learn pricing needed to learn pricing just in time we went to the people who just in time we went to the people who just in time we went to the people who were seen as experts were seen as experts were seen as experts and again the easy part is is learning and again the easy part is is learning and again the easy part is is learning the hard part is implementing um the hard part is implementing um the hard part is implementing um and but we just are we i feel like we're and but we just are we i feel like we're and but we just are we i feel like we're a testament of a testament of a testament of it's worth that effort because it did it's worth that effort because it did it's worth that effort because it did transform our business transform our business transform our business it it's also a bit meta we use it it's also a bit meta we use it it's also a bit meta we use i mentioned in the very beginning that i mentioned in the very beginning that i mentioned in the very beginning that we love learning we love learning we love learning from podcasts because it's a very from podcasts because it's a very from podcasts because it's a very efficient way to go deep on a very niche efficient way to go deep on a very niche efficient way to go deep on a very niche topic topic topic so you want to learn about sas pricing so you want to learn about sas pricing so you want to learn about sas pricing right right right you can find you know three podcast you can find you know three podcast you can find you know three podcast episodes 10 podcast episodes on that and episodes 10 podcast episodes on that and episodes 10 podcast episodes on that and be from zero to 60 by like later today be from zero to 60 by like later today be from zero to 60 by like later today listening to those and like rock said listening to those and like rock said listening to those and like rock said the trick really is the trick really is the trick really is having the levers being able to having the levers being able to having the levers being able to implement that right away so implement that right away so implement that right away so um i can't uh there's so many examples um i can't uh there's so many examples um i can't uh there's so many examples of of of oh i just read this book or i just read oh i just read this book or i just read oh i just read this book or i just read this chapter or the section of this book this chapter or the section of this book this chapter or the section of this book and you know it's it's part of our and you know it's it's part of our and you know it's it's part of our business and strategy the next day business and strategy the next day business and strategy the next day um that's something that we repeat over um that's something that we repeat over um that's something that we repeat over and over and over again and over and over again and over and over again yep it's that advantage of being a yep it's that advantage of being a yep it's that advantage of being a startup founder and being able to startup founder and being able to startup founder and being able to implement really quickly right versus implement really quickly right versus implement really quickly right versus working at a fortune 500 or a thousand working at a fortune 500 or a thousand working at a fortune 500 or a thousand and you're it might take you three

and you're it might take you three and you're it might take you three months to get everyone on board and like months to get everyone on board and like months to get everyone on board and like if you don't get a pilot project going if you don't get a pilot project going if you don't get a pilot project going or whatever i'm not saying or whatever i'm not saying or whatever i'm not saying it's bad to work at fortune 1000 it's it's bad to work at fortune 1000 it's it's bad to work at fortune 1000 it's just the different trade-offs we have just the different trade-offs we have just the different trade-offs we have right right right absolutely yeah and tinyseed is some absolutely yeah and tinyseed is some absolutely yeah and tinyseed is some extreme version of that so extreme version of that so extreme version of that so uh so we've picked up uh we've picked up uh so we've picked up uh we've picked up uh so we've picked up uh we've picked up so much and implemented it very quickly so much and implemented it very quickly so much and implemented it very quickly and we're seeing that and we're seeing that and we're seeing that same uh same approach from our pure same uh same approach from our pure same uh same approach from our pure company so that's a great way to kind of company so that's a great way to kind of company so that's a great way to kind of throw some gasoline on the fire throw some gasoline on the fire throw some gasoline on the fire with advice and all the great things with advice and all the great things with advice and all the great things that come from the work that they're that come from the work that they're that come from the work that they're doing doing doing yeah and that that brings us to our next yeah and that that brings us to our next yeah and that that brings us to our next question it's a good segue so justin question it's a good segue so justin question it's a good segue so justin jackson jackson jackson asked why take funding from tiny seed if asked why take funding from tiny seed if asked why take funding from tiny seed if you were at 100k you were at 100k you were at 100k mrr well that's a great question justin mrr well that's a great question justin mrr well that's a great question justin uh uh uh so we were not at 100k by the time we so we were not at 100k by the time we so we were not at 100k by the time we started talking to started talking to started talking to tinyseed uh it just kind of happened but tinyseed uh it just kind of happened but tinyseed uh it just kind of happened but we were already we were already we were already uh looking for ways to um uh looking for ways to um uh looking for ways to um just grow our network and become more just grow our network and become more just grow our network and become more professional founder professional founder professional founder after talking with so many different after talking with so many different after talking with so many different investors angels investors angels investors angels accelerators tiny c just felt like the accelerators tiny c just felt like the accelerators tiny c just felt like the right fit for right fit for right fit for uh many reasons but yeah shortly after uh many reasons but yeah shortly after uh many reasons but yeah shortly after that relationship became formalized we that relationship became formalized we that relationship became formalized we did hit 100k so did hit 100k so did hit 100k so the money was not something we really the money was not something we really the money was not something we really necessarily needed but the necessarily needed but the necessarily needed but the advice and the the support is something advice and the the support is something advice and the the support is something that we truly value especially as we're that we truly value especially as we're that we truly value especially as we're navigating these waters for the first navigating these waters for the first navigating these waters for the first time that's something we've always tried time that's something we've always tried time that's something we've always tried to um to um to um try to remain mindful of is uh when try to remain mindful of is uh when try to remain mindful of is uh when you're not you're not you're not going out and actively raising venture going out and actively raising venture going out and actively raising venture capital we tend to think of it exactly capital we tend to think of it exactly capital we tend to think of it exactly like that where it's it's it's capital

like that where it's it's it's capital like that where it's it's it's capital um but you're also kind of uh um but you're also kind of uh um but you're also kind of uh potentially sacrificing opportunities to potentially sacrificing opportunities to potentially sacrificing opportunities to get advice from people who have done get advice from people who have done get advice from people who have done this before this before this before and so we've always been very and so we've always been very and so we've always been very intentional about our advisory board and intentional about our advisory board and intentional about our advisory board and the the skills within um so that we can the the skills within um so that we can the the skills within um so that we can we can learn from people who have done we can learn from people who have done we can learn from people who have done this before as first time founders and this before as first time founders and this before as first time founders and then tiny seed then tiny seed then tiny seed again was just a crazy crazy degree of again was just a crazy crazy degree of again was just a crazy crazy degree of that same approach that um that same approach that um that same approach that um has already been having a really great has already been having a really great has already been having a really great impact uh beyond impact uh beyond impact uh beyond kind of our core advisory board yeah i kind of our core advisory board yeah i kind of our core advisory board yeah i think that's an important point in tiny think that's an important point in tiny think that's an important point in tiny seat aside it's like seat aside it's like seat aside it's like a mistake i made early on i think a lot a mistake i made early on i think a lot a mistake i made early on i think a lot of bootstrappers make is that they feel of bootstrappers make is that they feel of bootstrappers make is that they feel like they should be able to do it all on like they should be able to do it all on like they should be able to do it all on their own their own their own and they don't set up an advisory board and they don't set up an advisory board and they don't set up an advisory board or they don't have a mastermind group or or they don't have a mastermind group or or they don't have a mastermind group or they don't have other people they don't have other people they don't have other people who have true kind of insight and impact who have true kind of insight and impact who have true kind of insight and impact on on on into their business and and you guys into their business and and you guys into their business and and you guys have done a good job there's some people have done a good job there's some people have done a good job there's some people that i know that i know that i know like ruben game is another example of like ruben game is another example of like ruben game is another example of someone who has really always sought out someone who has really always sought out someone who has really always sought out mentors and is just willing to be mentors and is just willing to be mentors and is just willing to be teachable you know is willing to to not teachable you know is willing to to not teachable you know is willing to to not have the attitude again the attitude i have the attitude again the attitude i have the attitude again the attitude i had 10 years ago of like had 10 years ago of like had 10 years ago of like well i'm going to figure it out and i'm well i'm going to figure it out and i'm well i'm going to figure it out and i'm going to do it all on my own it just it going to do it all on my own it just it going to do it all on my own it just it took me a lot longer to get there took me a lot longer to get there took me a lot longer to get there because of that so i think advice because of that so i think advice because of that so i think advice network and and the bat you know being network and and the bat you know being network and and the bat you know being in a community and having a mastermind i in a community and having a mastermind i in a community and having a mastermind i think all that's like think all that's like think all that's like so so important so uh eric tompkins asks so so important so uh eric tompkins asks so so important so uh eric tompkins asks can you talk more about how you invest can you talk more about how you invest can you talk more about how you invest in the podcast community in the podcast community in the podcast community where and how can this be done where and how can this be done where and how can this be done yeah so uh just the most recent example yeah so uh just the most recent example yeah so uh just the most recent example we we we uh we funded or we provide this

uh we funded or we provide this uh we funded or we provide this we provided the seed funding for the we we provided the seed funding for the we we provided the seed funding for the we are diverse creators summit are diverse creators summit are diverse creators summit which is um was a remote event for by which is um was a remote event for by which is um was a remote event for by uh founded by one of our advisors uh founded by one of our advisors uh founded by one of our advisors adriana flores regard adriana flores regard adriana flores regard co-founded this new event that was an co-founded this new event that was an co-founded this new event that was an underserved underserved underserved conversation in community within conversation in community within conversation in community within podcasting and i'm very grateful that we podcasting and i'm very grateful that we podcasting and i'm very grateful that we could help could help could help bring that to life through some through bring that to life through some through bring that to life through some through some some some investment and also participation so investment and also participation so investment and also participation so it's not all it's not all it's not all dollars and you know capital it's also dollars and you know capital it's also dollars and you know capital it's also rock spoke at that event rock spoke at that event rock spoke at that event um and we we helped kind of provide uh um and we we helped kind of provide uh um and we we helped kind of provide uh our network for getting speakers to that our network for getting speakers to that our network for getting speakers to that event and there's all sorts of ways that event and there's all sorts of ways that event and there's all sorts of ways that you can you can you can leverage the resources that you have leverage the resources that you have leverage the resources that you have that may not always be that may not always be that may not always be capital uh to invest it's social equity capital uh to invest it's social equity capital uh to invest it's social equity it's your network it's it's these um it's your network it's it's these um it's your network it's it's these um these additional these additional these additional elements that you can bring to uh to the elements that you can bring to uh to the elements that you can bring to uh to the community community community so we speak at events all the time so we speak at events all the time so we speak at events all the time that's another great way of course we that's another great way of course we that's another great way of course we we sponsor events and we sponsor events and we sponsor events and continue continue on that path i mean of continue continue on that path i mean of continue continue on that path i mean of course shelter in place has kind of course shelter in place has kind of course shelter in place has kind of turned that on its head as we're all turned that on its head as we're all turned that on its head as we're all experiencing experiencing experiencing right now so i i respect what you're right now so i i respect what you're right now so i i respect what you're doing doing doing uh with with the team rob of of finding uh with with the team rob of of finding uh with with the team rob of of finding a way to make this engaging and stay a way to make this engaging and stay a way to make this engaging and stay stay the course even though uh 2020 has stay the course even though uh 2020 has stay the course even though uh 2020 has been so strange been so strange been so strange so uh so there are all sorts of ways so uh so there are all sorts of ways so uh so there are all sorts of ways another is just another is just another is just um talking to our customers talking to um talking to our customers talking to um talking to our customers talking to the community and not having kind of a the community and not having kind of a the community and not having kind of a sales agenda just

sales agenda just sales agenda just listening right through meetups and listening right through meetups and listening right through meetups and and in our case we uh have we have the and in our case we uh have we have the and in our case we uh have we have the ability to go on and be guests on ability to go on and be guests on ability to go on and be guests on people's podcasts people's podcasts people's podcasts and learn from them about what they're and learn from them about what they're and learn from them about what they're doing um how they're doing um how they're doing um how they're interviewing other people what they're interviewing other people what they're interviewing other people what they're learning from their guests so learning from their guests so learning from their guests so there's there's all sorts of ways um i there's there's all sorts of ways um i there's there's all sorts of ways um i would just even would just even would just even it's probably helpful to just even not it's probably helpful to just even not it's probably helpful to just even not even worry about the money as an even worry about the money as an even worry about the money as an investment investment investment find other resources that you have and find other resources that you have and find other resources that you have and uh and put those to work in the uh and put those to work in the uh and put those to work in the community community community very cool so we have we're gonna have very cool so we have we're gonna have very cool so we have we're gonna have the lightning round here we have about the lightning round here we have about the lightning round here we have about three and a half minutes and i think i three and a half minutes and i think i three and a half minutes and i think i have like have like have like another six questions or something so a another six questions or something so a another six questions or something so a question from andrew comfort he says you question from andrew comfort he says you question from andrew comfort he says you have pending patents have pending patents have pending patents and perhaps more in the works how do you and perhaps more in the works how do you and perhaps more in the works how do you balance your intellectual property balance your intellectual property balance your intellectual property secrecy secrecy secrecy nda needs with your openness and nda needs with your openness and nda needs with your openness and communication and acceptance of ideas communication and acceptance of ideas communication and acceptance of ideas from from from users ooh i thought that was going to users ooh i thought that was going to users ooh i thought that was going to take a different turn i thought he was take a different turn i thought he was take a different turn i thought he was going to talk about going to talk about going to talk about when you file patents the public and when you file patents the public and when you file patents the public and competitors can copy them competitors can copy them competitors can copy them so but he's saying user global you only so but he's saying user global you only so but he's saying user global you only filed patents in the u.s so filed patents in the u.s so filed patents in the u.s so that's a whole different uh you know that's a whole different uh you know that's a whole different uh you know consideration consideration consideration but um you're absolutely right we are but um you're absolutely right we are but um you're absolutely right we are open with our customers open with our customers open with our customers uh it's just the level of detail that we uh it's just the level of detail that we uh it's just the level of detail that we provide and provide and provide and um one of those patents anyway is how we um one of those patents anyway is how we um one of those patents anyway is how we upload and um progressively upload our upload and um progressively upload our upload and um progressively upload our audio so that it's uh reliable as well audio so that it's uh reliable as well audio so that it's uh reliable as well as high quality as high quality as high quality and that idea came from one of our from and that idea came from one of our from and that idea came from one of our from our founding advisor harry duran who our founding advisor harry duran who our founding advisor harry duran who uh you want to listen to our podcast the uh you want to listen to our podcast the uh you want to listen to our podcast the episode just dropped today episode just dropped today episode just dropped today with a conversation with him that's with a conversation with him that's with a conversation with him that's called between two mics so

called between two mics so called between two mics so uh harry gets full credit for that idea uh harry gets full credit for that idea uh harry gets full credit for that idea of progressive upload of progressive upload of progressive upload well not full credit well yeah how we well not full credit well yeah how we well not full credit well yeah how we actually built it very actually built it very actually built it very very different thing it took us 10 very different thing it took us 10 very different thing it took us 10 attempts right to build this out so um attempts right to build this out so um attempts right to build this out so um there's uh it's just a level of there's uh it's just a level of there's uh it's just a level of transparency that that you provide you transparency that that you provide you transparency that that you provide you we can talk about how things work we can talk about how things work we can talk about how things work without getting into the nitty gritty without getting into the nitty gritty without getting into the nitty gritty nitty gritty of how this particular nitty gritty of how this particular nitty gritty of how this particular micro service sends this micro service sends this micro service sends this request and routes you know how we request and routes you know how we request and routes you know how we render that audio or render that audio or render that audio or there's all sorts of details there that there's all sorts of details there that there's all sorts of details there that that actually inform that actually inform that actually inform the patent of being novel that uh you the patent of being novel that uh you the patent of being novel that uh you don't need to put in your marketing don't need to put in your marketing don't need to put in your marketing material material material it's just more so communicating the it's just more so communicating the it's just more so communicating the benefits of it benefits of it benefits of it question from james mcbrian since you question from james mcbrian since you question from james mcbrian since you grew a lot during shelter in place do grew a lot during shelter in place do grew a lot during shelter in place do you expect you expect you expect do you expect the post shelter in place do you expect the post shelter in place do you expect the post shelter in place world to impact your company world to impact your company world to impact your company how are you preparing for that yes i'll how are you preparing for that yes i'll how are you preparing for that yes i'll answer this as best i can with lightning answer this as best i can with lightning answer this as best i can with lightning round response uh round response uh round response uh of course we definitely anticipate some of course we definitely anticipate some of course we definitely anticipate some sort of change sort of change sort of change however our main focus is to just make however our main focus is to just make however our main focus is to just make sure that the relationships we're sure that the relationships we're sure that the relationships we're building now continue to stay intact and building now continue to stay intact and building now continue to stay intact and sticky sticky sticky what we're learning uh because we're so what we're learning uh because we're so what we're learning uh because we're so intimately involved with all of our intimately involved with all of our intimately involved with all of our customers whether it's solo podcasters customers whether it's solo podcasters customers whether it's solo podcasters or or or vox espn the folks over there that we're vox espn the folks over there that we're vox espn the folks over there that we're talking to it does sound like there's talking to it does sound like there's talking to it does sound like there's going to be a place for remote recording going to be a place for remote recording going to be a place for remote recording in their production that they see the in their production that they see the in their production that they see the benefits of it a lot of these companies benefits of it a lot of these companies benefits of it a lot of these companies or people uh aren't all in the same room or people uh aren't all in the same room or people uh aren't all in the same room so they're still gonna so they're still gonna so they're still gonna we think that we're confident that we think that we're confident that we think that we're confident that there's still going to be a place for there's still going to be a place for there's still going to be a place for for squad cast in these production for squad cast in these production for squad cast in these production schedules schedules schedules uh for for the near future right not uh for for the near future right not uh for for the near future right not near future long time espn is a great

near future long time espn is a great near future long time espn is a great example they're a example they're a example they're a distributed company because of their distributed company because of their distributed company because of their scale so there's absolutely there was a scale so there's absolutely there was a scale so there's absolutely there was a place before there's a place after place before there's a place after place before there's a place after now it's just more so like hey we don't now it's just more so like hey we don't now it's just more so like hey we don't have to sacrifice quality to uh to have to sacrifice quality to uh to have to sacrifice quality to uh to record remotely record remotely record remotely we're trying to do that i'm trying to do we're trying to do that i'm trying to do we're trying to do that i'm trying to do lighter come on man lighter come on man lighter come on man so last question for the day from justin so last question for the day from justin so last question for the day from justin jackson how big jackson how big jackson how big is the squad cast team yeah so we're uh we're up to seven as of yeah so we're uh we're up to seven as of last week so we just added a new last week so we just added a new last week so we just added a new a new uh software engineer and product a new uh software engineer and product a new uh software engineer and product manager grace manager grace manager grace thank you and uh and she's already thank you and uh and she's already thank you and uh and she's already crushing it crushing it crushing it um up and running and then as of last um up and running and then as of last um up and running and then as of last week a voice week a voice week a voice very strong voice within our community very strong voice within our community very strong voice within our community we hired as a community manager and her we hired as a community manager and her we hired as a community manager and her name is arielle nisenblatt so we're very name is arielle nisenblatt so we're very name is arielle nisenblatt so we're very excited with the growth of the team excited with the growth of the team excited with the growth of the team uh the the five uh in addition to that uh the the five uh in addition to that uh the the five uh in addition to that were kind of rock and i were kind of rock and i were kind of rock and i and our founding team so uh you know and our founding team so uh you know and our founding team so uh you know that's that's where we're at right now that's that's where we're at right now that's that's where we're at right now gentlemen thank you so much again gentlemen thank you so much again gentlemen thank you so much again rock and zach appreciate your time today rock and zach appreciate your time today rock and zach appreciate your time today on micro conference everyone hello hello okay my name is asia and i hello hello okay my name is asia and i am the ceo and founder of demand maven am the ceo and founder of demand maven am the ceo and founder of demand maven and the question is what's a quick fix and the question is what's a quick fix and the question is what's a quick fix that you can implement now that you can implement now that you can implement now in order to make your business way in order to make your business way in order to make your business way easier to run in the future easier to run in the future easier to run in the future and hands down i have to say it's paying and hands down i have to say it's paying and hands down i have to say it's paying off your analytics debt today off your analytics debt today off your analytics debt today right now if you possibly can what is right now if you possibly can what is right now if you possibly can what is analytics debt well it's actually based analytics debt well it's actually based analytics debt well it's actually based off of a term off of a term off of a term that you might actually already know that you might actually already know that you might actually already know especially if you're a technical founder especially if you're a technical founder especially if you're a technical founder or co-founder or co-founder or co-founder you might have heard of technical debt

you might have heard of technical debt you might have heard of technical debt or code debt which basically just means or code debt which basically just means or code debt which basically just means as you implement certain parts of your as you implement certain parts of your as you implement certain parts of your product product product there's going to be certain parts of the there's going to be certain parts of the there's going to be certain parts of the code base and even just code base and even just code base and even just certain investments technology-wise that certain investments technology-wise that certain investments technology-wise that over over over time prevent you from growing in some time prevent you from growing in some time prevent you from growing in some kind of way kind of way kind of way it could also just be impacting overall it could also just be impacting overall it could also just be impacting overall operations the code base isn't as operations the code base isn't as operations the code base isn't as efficient especially as the product and efficient especially as the product and efficient especially as the product and the business grows and matures the business grows and matures the business grows and matures especially so as you start making especially so as you start making especially so as you start making certain decisions about certain decisions about certain decisions about how certain features are implemented how how certain features are implemented how how certain features are implemented how certain things are coded and also how certain things are coded and also how certain things are coded and also how certain parts of the platform again certain parts of the platform again certain parts of the platform again are implemented you over time just are implemented you over time just are implemented you over time just naturally incur this technical debt naturally incur this technical debt naturally incur this technical debt you'll have to naturally start making you'll have to naturally start making you'll have to naturally start making decisions decisions decisions about if you tackle rebuilding certain about if you tackle rebuilding certain about if you tackle rebuilding certain parts of your product or parts of your product or parts of your product or even uh replacing certain technologies even uh replacing certain technologies even uh replacing certain technologies and also what's just kind of okay to and also what's just kind of okay to and also what's just kind of okay to kind of turn a blind eye to for now but kind of turn a blind eye to for now but kind of turn a blind eye to for now but knowing that you'll get to it and fix it knowing that you'll get to it and fix it knowing that you'll get to it and fix it or replace it in the next six months or replace it in the next six months or replace it in the next six months could even be up to several years and could even be up to several years and could even be up to several years and not all technical debt is necessarily not all technical debt is necessarily not all technical debt is necessarily bad debt you naturally incur it bad debt you naturally incur it bad debt you naturally incur it it's really up to you the founders the it's really up to you the founders the it's really up to you the founders the engineering team engineering team engineering team and then of course the product team to and then of course the product team to and then of course the product team to decide what makes more sense to tackle decide what makes more sense to tackle decide what makes more sense to tackle now versus later but as long as you are now versus later but as long as you are now versus later but as long as you are aware of the choices that you make and aware of the choices that you make and aware of the choices that you make and also the choices that you don't make also the choices that you don't make also the choices that you don't make that's that's what uh that's what that's that's what uh that's what that's that's what uh that's what technical debt is all about technical debt is all about technical debt is all about and analytics debt is the same exact and analytics debt is the same exact and analytics debt is the same exact concept except it's applied specifically concept except it's applied specifically concept except it's applied specifically to your to your to your analytics it might sound really shocking analytics it might sound really shocking analytics it might sound really shocking but there's actually businesses but there's actually businesses but there's actually businesses out there right now today who have out there right now today who have out there right now today who have reached 20k number r or 50k number r

reached 20k number r or 50k number r reached 20k number r or 50k number r and they have no idea what the top and they have no idea what the top and they have no idea what the top channels are that contribute to overall channels are that contribute to overall channels are that contribute to overall marketing growth or just overall marketing growth or just overall marketing growth or just overall acquisition they have no idea what the acquisition they have no idea what the acquisition they have no idea what the top features are that someone needs to top features are that someone needs to top features are that someone needs to execute in order to execute in order to execute in order to most likely become a paying customer most likely become a paying customer most likely become a paying customer there's there's so much from there's there's so much from there's there's so much from acquisition to activation to retention acquisition to activation to retention acquisition to activation to retention that is relatively unknown that is relatively unknown that is relatively unknown and part of this is because there's no and part of this is because there's no and part of this is because there's no overall overall overall analytics strategy or plan in order to analytics strategy or plan in order to analytics strategy or plan in order to really figure out how to measure really figure out how to measure really figure out how to measure the ultimate things that you need to the ultimate things that you need to the ultimate things that you need to measure in order to make good decisions measure in order to make good decisions measure in order to make good decisions and on top of that the interesting part and on top of that the interesting part and on top of that the interesting part about analytics debt is that it really about analytics debt is that it really about analytics debt is that it really starts from day one it really starts starts from day one it really starts starts from day one it really starts from day one from day one from day one building the product and then of course building the product and then of course building the product and then of course launching it going to market with a launching it going to market with a launching it going to market with a product product product and deciding what are the features and and deciding what are the features and and deciding what are the features and just just just customer segments that we need to be customer segments that we need to be customer segments that we need to be able to measure able to measure able to measure and what how do certain cohorts over and what how do certain cohorts over and what how do certain cohorts over time perform time perform time perform and analytics that is it's extremely and analytics that is it's extremely and analytics that is it's extremely common common common and i work with early stage sas and i work with early stage sas and i work with early stage sas companies companies companies on reaching those very first growth on reaching those very first growth on reaching those very first growth milestones and i've got to say it's an milestones and i've got to say it's an milestones and i've got to say it's an extremely common thing extremely common thing extremely common thing it's very normal if you are experiencing it's very normal if you are experiencing it's very normal if you are experiencing analytics debt in any kind of way right analytics debt in any kind of way right analytics debt in any kind of way right now now now let me just say that it's absolutely let me just say that it's absolutely let me just say that it's absolutely normal but i will also encourage you to normal but i will also encourage you to normal but i will also encourage you to pay it off pay it off pay it off now if you can you don't want to get to now if you can you don't want to get to now if you can you don't want to get to 15k mrr 15k mrr 15k mrr or even 30k number r honestly even 10k or even 30k number r honestly even 10k or even 30k number r honestly even 10k number are and have zero idea about number are and have zero idea about number are and have zero idea about where those customers came from how they where those customers came from how they where those customers came from how they found you found you found you and the cool part about analytics debt and the cool part about analytics debt and the cool part about analytics debt is that you can technically start now is that you can technically start now is that you can technically start now with really simple really simple tools

with really simple really simple tools with really simple really simple tools even free tools so google analytics is even free tools so google analytics is even free tools so google analytics is probably one of the most common probably one of the most common probably one of the most common analytics tools that you can use to analytics tools that you can use to analytics tools that you can use to measure overall marketing performance so measure overall marketing performance so measure overall marketing performance so how does the website perform how does the website perform how does the website perform how does certain channels perform what how does certain channels perform what how does certain channels perform what what what what what is the overall behavior just from what is the overall behavior just from what is the overall behavior just from traffic traffic traffic it could also just be demos if you're it could also just be demos if you're it could also just be demos if you're more of a demo model versus a free trial more of a demo model versus a free trial more of a demo model versus a free trial model model model how does overall marketing perform and how does overall marketing perform and how does overall marketing perform and then you can also get into much more then you can also get into much more then you can also get into much more complex platforms over time like complex platforms over time like complex platforms over time like full story or amplitude or mixed panel full story or amplitude or mixed panel full story or amplitude or mixed panel heap and start looking more at heap and start looking more at heap and start looking more at product specific analytics so how do product specific analytics so how do product specific analytics so how do certain cohorts behave in the product certain cohorts behave in the product certain cohorts behave in the product how do certain customer segments convert how do certain customer segments convert how do certain customer segments convert in the product based off of where you've in the product based off of where you've in the product based off of where you've acquired them from and also what are acquired them from and also what are acquired them from and also what are just the most important behaviors just the most important behaviors just the most important behaviors to become a paying customer these are to become a paying customer these are to become a paying customer these are questions that you don't want to go too questions that you don't want to go too questions that you don't want to go too long long long not knowing the answer to it's so not knowing the answer to it's so not knowing the answer to it's so critical to pay it off now if you can critical to pay it off now if you can critical to pay it off now if you can because the interest can actually set because the interest can actually set because the interest can actually set you back entire you back entire you back entire years especially if you get to a certain years especially if you get to a certain years especially if you get to a certain growth point growth gets stagnant and growth point growth gets stagnant and growth point growth gets stagnant and again you have no idea how to again you have no idea how to again you have no idea how to troubleshoot it you have no idea where troubleshoot it you have no idea where troubleshoot it you have no idea where everything comes from everything comes from everything comes from there's really three kinds of analytics there's really three kinds of analytics there's really three kinds of analytics that i've identified that i've identified that i've identified uh and and there's i'm sure there's uh and and there's i'm sure there's uh and and there's i'm sure there's certainly more but the most common ones certainly more but the most common ones certainly more but the most common ones hands down hands down hands down are uh product analytics marketing are uh product analytics marketing are uh product analytics marketing analytics and of course business analytics and of course business analytics and of course business analytics analytics analytics product analytics i mentioned a few product analytics i mentioned a few product analytics i mentioned a few platforms already but you can look at platforms already but you can look at platforms already but you can look at things like things like things like uh even uh user list there's also mixed uh even uh user list there's also mixed uh even uh user list there's also mixed panel amplitude panel amplitude panel amplitude and then of course there's marketing and then of course there's marketing and then of course there's marketing analytics some of the most common analytics some of the most common analytics some of the most common platforms have to do more with platforms have to do more with platforms have to do more with attribution and then of course just attribution and then of course just attribution and then of course just overall website performance google

overall website performance google overall website performance google analytics i would say is extremely analytics i would say is extremely analytics i would say is extremely common to start with and then common to start with and then common to start with and then layering on complexity over time using layering on complexity over time using layering on complexity over time using tools like maybe a hubspot tools like maybe a hubspot tools like maybe a hubspot or it really just depends of course on or it really just depends of course on or it really just depends of course on your business from there your business from there your business from there and then lastly there's business and then lastly there's business and then lastly there's business analytics just very simple analytics just very simple analytics just very simple metrics and kpis like lifetime value or metrics and kpis like lifetime value or metrics and kpis like lifetime value or average revenue per user average revenue per user average revenue per user uh how long does a particular cohort uh how long does a particular cohort uh how long does a particular cohort stay with you of customers and what is stay with you of customers and what is stay with you of customers and what is the overall retention after six months the overall retention after six months the overall retention after six months 12 months 12 months 12 months being able to answer those questions being able to answer those questions being able to answer those questions with like a subscription metrics with like a subscription metrics with like a subscription metrics platform platform platform something like profit well or bear something like profit well or bear something like profit well or bear metrics or chart mogul metrics or chart mogul metrics or chart mogul and again like this this tackles more and again like this this tackles more and again like this this tackles more maybe more of the subscription side maybe more of the subscription side maybe more of the subscription side and then at the end of the day and then at the end of the day and then at the end of the day especially if you are technical especially if you are technical especially if you are technical you can of course leverage your own you can of course leverage your own you can of course leverage your own database of information database of information database of information to pull whatever number of reports you to pull whatever number of reports you to pull whatever number of reports you need to pull but just make sure that you need to pull but just make sure that you need to pull but just make sure that you actually can actually can actually can and make sure also that you have a plan and make sure also that you have a plan and make sure also that you have a plan for thinking about for thinking about for thinking about what are some of the unknowns in your what are some of the unknowns in your what are some of the unknowns in your business today and then start figuring business today and then start figuring business today and then start figuring out like what are the tasks that we need out like what are the tasks that we need out like what are the tasks that we need to to to uh define defines that we can start uh define defines that we can start uh define defines that we can start tackling that this is my quick fix tackling that this is my quick fix tackling that this is my quick fix i really hope that was helpful pay off i really hope that was helpful pay off i really hope that was helpful pay off your analytics debt now if you can your analytics debt now if you can your analytics debt now if you can you again you just you don't want to get you again you just you don't want to get you again you just you don't want to get too long or too far into your growth too long or too far into your growth too long or too far into your growth process process process not knowing certain answers so if you not knowing certain answers so if you not knowing certain answers so if you can tackle them now can tackle them now can tackle them now do it if you have the means to do it and do it if you have the means to do it and do it if you have the means to do it and you don't have to become super complex you don't have to become super complex you don't have to become super complex from day one like i said you can use from day one like i said you can use from day one like i said you can use something simple like google analytics something simple like google analytics something simple like google analytics and then layer on complexity over time and then layer on complexity over time and then layer on complexity over time but you really want to be able to answer but you really want to be able to answer but you really want to be able to answer some of those fundamental questions some of those fundamental questions some of those fundamental questions thanks again have a good one

now here in the studio once again now here in the studio once again socially distancing socially distancing socially distancing it feels like you're so far away i have it feels like you're so far away i have it feels like you're so far away i have nate groshak he is a nate groshak he is a nate groshak he is a uh st paul local yes so it's amazing to uh st paul local yes so it's amazing to uh st paul local yes so it's amazing to have you join me here in person even have you join me here in person even have you join me here in person even during these non-travel uh during these non-travel uh during these non-travel uh covid times so nate actually is the the covid times so nate actually is the the covid times so nate actually is the the focus of focus of focus of the most downloaded startups for the the most downloaded startups for the the most downloaded startups for the rest of us episode ever rest of us episode ever rest of us episode ever and i believe i mean it's probably 200 and i believe i mean it's probably 200 and i believe i mean it's probably 200 episodes ago but it's how a episodes ago but it's how a episodes ago but it's how a non-technical founder built a non-technical founder built a non-technical founder built a seven-figure sas app if i recall seven-figure sas app if i recall seven-figure sas app if i recall something something something right so nate is uh the founder of right so nate is uh the founder of right so nate is uh the founder of sticky albums sticky albums sticky albums and he founded that in 2012. he's a and he founded that in 2012. he's a and he founded that in 2012. he's a former portrait photographer former portrait photographer former portrait photographer and a corporate trainer and he loves and a corporate trainer and he loves and a corporate trainer and he loves anything radio controlled anything radio controlled anything radio controlled not like cars and airplanes it is yeah not like cars and airplanes it is yeah not like cars and airplanes it is yeah that's cool so he and i are going to that's cool so he and i are going to that's cool so he and i are going to dive into a topic that i think inspires dive into a topic that i think inspires dive into a topic that i think inspires both fear and both fear and both fear and perhaps some aspiration and many perhaps some aspiration and many perhaps some aspiration and many bootstrap founders it's the ability to bootstrap founders it's the ability to bootstrap founders it's the ability to delegate responsibilities to your team delegate responsibilities to your team delegate responsibilities to your team so that they can get the job done so that they can get the job done so that they can get the job done without you hovering over them without you hovering over them without you hovering over them so i think you have some email rules or so i think you have some email rules or so i think you have some email rules or tips for empowering your team tips for empowering your team tips for empowering your team thanks for having me man just driving in thanks for having me man just driving in thanks for having me man just driving in hey that's weird yeah reflecting on hey that's weird yeah reflecting on hey that's weird yeah reflecting on the last nine years of running my the last nine years of running my the last nine years of running my business listening to story of squad business listening to story of squad business listening to story of squad cast just really brought me back to cast just really brought me back to cast just really brought me back to how grateful i am for this community how grateful i am for this community how grateful i am for this community you've created so it's an honor to be you've created so it's an honor to be you've created so it's an honor to be here here here to give back and even a little bit uh to give back and even a little bit uh to give back and even a little bit uh thinking back thinking back thinking back i grew to a million in arr in two years i grew to a million in arr in two years i grew to a million in arr in two years so that really relating to that all of a so that really relating to that all of a so that really relating to that all of a sudden sudden sudden where's my life what kind of balance where's my life what kind of balance where's my life what kind of balance semblance i had semblance i had semblance i had two new kids and i learned these lessons two new kids and i learned these lessons two new kids and i learned these lessons haphazardly so uh i think the

haphazardly so uh i think the haphazardly so uh i think the first thing i learned is the right type first thing i learned is the right type first thing i learned is the right type of communication has to happen in the of communication has to happen in the of communication has to happen in the right channels right channels right channels so right now let's just talk about email so right now let's just talk about email so right now let's just talk about email and i think that and i think that and i think that for for as much love as slack gets i for for as much love as slack gets i for for as much love as slack gets i still still still think there's some good things about think there's some good things about think there's some good things about email even internally email even internally email even internally instead of just interrupting each other instead of just interrupting each other instead of just interrupting each other all the time so number one all the time so number one all the time so number one i set these rules with my team you want i set these rules with my team you want i set these rules with my team you want to get a quick to get a quick to get a quick response from me it has to pass response from me it has to pass response from me it has to pass the yes test what i mean by that is and the yes test what i mean by that is and the yes test what i mean by that is and for any of you if you want to send this for any of you if you want to send this for any of you if you want to send this try to get attention to somebody a vip try to get attention to somebody a vip try to get attention to somebody a vip or just to give these rules to your new or just to give these rules to your new or just to give these rules to your new team or new and growing team team or new and growing team team or new and growing team make sure that when they send an email make sure that when they send an email make sure that when they send an email it passes a yes test meaning it passes a yes test meaning it passes a yes test meaning we can all use our imagination how great we can all use our imagination how great we can all use our imagination how great is it in gmail is it in gmail is it in gmail i think this is a labs feature where it i think this is a labs feature where it i think this is a labs feature where it gives you those three suggestion buttons gives you those three suggestion buttons gives you those three suggestion buttons i've got to love those i love hitting i've got to love those i love hitting i've got to love those i love hitting yep that's perfect yep that's perfect yep that's perfect yeah and it's done guess what those yeah and it's done guess what those yeah and it's done guess what those emails get replied to emails get replied to emails get replied to first so i want walk through these three first so i want walk through these three first so i want walk through these three rules rules rules number one give me a good useful subject number one give me a good useful subject number one give me a good useful subject line line line uh don't use the word urgent because if uh don't use the word urgent because if uh don't use the word urgent because if it's urgent uh it's urgent uh it's urgent uh it shouldn't be an email number two it shouldn't be an email number two it shouldn't be an email number two give me what you recommend and even give me what you recommend and even give me what you recommend and even though we typically though we typically though we typically will give the whole context give the will give the whole context give the will give the whole context give the story of the issue story of the issue story of the issue uh what's happening and then we'll wrap uh what's happening and then we'll wrap uh what's happening and then we'll wrap up with a recommendation i tell my team up with a recommendation i tell my team up with a recommendation i tell my team to put that at the top to put that at the top to put that at the top so i can just glance it i know what is so i can just glance it i know what is so i can just glance it i know what is you're going to try to do

you're going to try to do you're going to try to do or what you recommend and then if i need or what you recommend and then if i need or what you recommend and then if i need to to to i can scan down to the recommend the i can scan down to the recommend the i can scan down to the recommend the needed context needed context needed context and that's the third element and so i and that's the third element and so i and that's the third element and so i say give me say give me say give me screenshots don't don't assume that i'm screenshots don't don't assume that i'm screenshots don't don't assume that i'm on my phone on my phone on my phone i'm on vacation maybe i don't have time i'm on vacation maybe i don't have time i'm on vacation maybe i don't have time to log into which facebook group to log into which facebook group to log into which facebook group something's happening in or something's happening in or something's happening in or which system just take a screenshot and which system just take a screenshot and which system just take a screenshot and put it in the email put it in the email put it in the email and it's there if i need it and then i and it's there if i need it and then i and it's there if i need it and then i can respond with can respond with can respond with yep that's awesome i'll also walk them yep that's awesome i'll also walk them yep that's awesome i'll also walk them through through through [Music] [Music] [Music] give me so make sure you don't put in give me so make sure you don't put in give me so make sure you don't put in too many to do's too many to do's too many to do's this is a big one for a while uh my team this is a big one for a while uh my team this is a big one for a while uh my team thought they were being helpful by thought they were being helpful by thought they were being helpful by giving me like the summary giving me like the summary giving me like the summary but for a lot of us still for better or but for a lot of us still for better or but for a lot of us still for better or worse our worse our worse our inbox is our to-do list in some ways and inbox is our to-do list in some ways and inbox is our to-do list in some ways and so so so what was happening is if i had an email what was happening is if i had an email what was happening is if i had an email with with with five things i had to do they'd have to five things i had to do they'd have to five things i had to do they'd have to sit there sit there sit there until i got all five of them done until i got all five of them done until i got all five of them done instead if you just break it up into instead if you just break it up into instead if you just break it up into five emails i can five emails i can five emails i can knock those out really quickly so for knock those out really quickly so for knock those out really quickly so for those of you watching the tricky part those of you watching the tricky part those of you watching the tricky part here is how do we deliver this message here is how do we deliver this message here is how do we deliver this message how do i get my team to follow these how do i get my team to follow these how do i get my team to follow these rules right rules right rules right um so i think the biggest one is just to um so i think the biggest one is just to um so i think the biggest one is just to be be be to use some some humor some humility to use some some humor some humility to use some some humor some humility and apologize when um having a and apologize when um having a and apologize when um having a one-on-one and going you know what look one-on-one and going you know what look one-on-one and going you know what look i'm really sorry i owed you i'm really sorry i owed you i'm really sorry i owed you these emails or uh i should have got these emails or uh i should have got these emails or uh i should have got back to you sooner back to you sooner back to you sooner this is what uh if we follow this this this is what uh if we follow this this this is what uh if we follow this this set of rules

set of rules set of rules it'll help me empower you to continue to it'll help me empower you to continue to it'll help me empower you to continue to do the work do the work do the work and i think that's the that's probably and i think that's the that's probably and i think that's the that's probably the bigger point here is like the bigger point here is like the bigger point here is like just really learning how to delegate just really learning how to delegate just really learning how to delegate right um right um right um i think that it's fun for a while when i think that it's fun for a while when i think that it's fun for a while when you're in the weeds you you're in the weeds you you're in the weeds you get to do everything but the more i get to do everything but the more i get to do everything but the more i would would would if i let's just take an example of a bad if i let's just take an example of a bad if i let's just take an example of a bad email hey nate uh email hey nate uh email hey nate uh so and so said something on facebook so and so said something on facebook so and so said something on facebook what should i do about it what should i do about it what should i do about it i don't know which which where on i don't know which which where on i don't know which which where on facebook who like what's the history facebook who like what's the history facebook who like what's the history what's the context what's the context what's the context that then i would just go do it because that then i would just go do it because that then i would just go do it because it was it felt urgent to me and i'd want it was it felt urgent to me and i'd want it was it felt urgent to me and i'd want to go to go to go just solve it but i was conditioning my just solve it but i was conditioning my just solve it but i was conditioning my team team team to just give me alerts they weren't to just give me alerts they weren't to just give me alerts they weren't actually doing and solving it themselves actually doing and solving it themselves actually doing and solving it themselves so when i switched to this this system so when i switched to this this system so when i switched to this this system it really empowered them it really empowered them it really empowered them to do the work and it feels so good to do the work and it feels so good to do the work and it feels so good to be there's i think uh you you and to be there's i think uh you you and to be there's i think uh you you and sherry talk a lot about the value of sherry talk a lot about the value of sherry talk a lot about the value of vacation and taking a breather and it's vacation and taking a breather and it's vacation and taking a breather and it's such a good stress test for your such a good stress test for your such a good stress test for your business and for your team business and for your team business and for your team to step away and i personally take such to step away and i personally take such to step away and i personally take such pride pride pride in being able to see the team in being able to see the team in being able to see the team handle it and me just say you got it handle it and me just say you got it handle it and me just say you got it and it empowers them the next time they and it empowers them the next time they and it empowers them the next time they know what to do know what to do know what to do and it just starts to snowball in the and it just starts to snowball in the and it just starts to snowball in the right direction right right direction right right direction right very cool it reminds me of um you know very cool it reminds me of um you know very cool it reminds me of um you know the the the kind of the managerial adage of of bring kind of the managerial adage of of bring kind of the managerial adage of of bring problems not problems not problems not solution yeah and that's in essence what solution yeah and that's in essence what solution yeah and that's in essence what you're saying is you're trying to level you're saying is you're trying to level you're saying is you're trying to level people up people up people up look i remember being i was right out of look i remember being i was right out of look i remember being i was right out of college i was 21 years old i think

college i was 21 years old i think college i was 21 years old i think and i got a job as a project manager and and i got a job as a project manager and and i got a job as a project manager and i would i was in project i was a i would i was in project i was a i would i was in project i was a project coordinator or something which project coordinator or something which project coordinator or something which is like below and i go to the project is like below and i go to the project is like below and i go to the project managers and i'd say managers and i'd say managers and i'd say oh my gosh i there's something wrong oh my gosh i there's something wrong oh my gosh i there's something wrong you know what i mean because i didn't you know what i mean because i didn't you know what i mean because i didn't know what to do and and so it took me a know what to do and and so it took me a know what to do and and so it took me a few years to learn few years to learn few years to learn oh start thinking i started learning oh start thinking i started learning oh start thinking i started learning from what these project managers from what these project managers from what these project managers would tell me and i was realizing oh would tell me and i was realizing oh would tell me and i was realizing oh here's they're thinking about it in a here's they're thinking about it in a here's they're thinking about it in a systematic way systematic way systematic way and they're and they would give me a few and they're and they would give me a few and they're and they would give me a few you know solutions and i would go back you know solutions and i would go back you know solutions and i would go back and implement one and i realized and implement one and i realized and implement one and i realized why can't i start doing that i'm a smart why can't i start doing that i'm a smart why can't i start doing that i'm a smart person right and so that's what you're person right and so that's what you're person right and so that's what you're doing you're like leveling up your own doing you're like leveling up your own doing you're like leveling up your own team with team with team with this yep and it's it's really it's i this yep and it's it's really it's i this yep and it's it's really it's i think it's a double-edged sword think it's a double-edged sword think it's a double-edged sword you have to really trust and be okay you have to really trust and be okay you have to really trust and be okay that your team can do it at least 80 to that your team can do it at least 80 to that your team can do it at least 80 to 90 90 90 as good as you can it's always going to as good as you can it's always going to as good as you can it's always going to be different but being able to see their be different but being able to see their be different but being able to see their thought process thought process thought process the other thing is think about and this the other thing is think about and this the other thing is think about and this is a message you can deliver is a message you can deliver is a message you can deliver to your team too when implementing this to your team too when implementing this to your team too when implementing this say look say look say look um let's just pretend i'm your your um let's just pretend i'm your your um let's just pretend i'm your your diving coach diving coach diving coach i can only help you so much talking i can only help you so much talking i can only help you so much talking about it about it about it or me showing me doing the dive and or me showing me doing the dive and or me showing me doing the dive and showing you what to do showing you what to do showing you what to do but where the real growth comes is when but where the real growth comes is when but where the real growth comes is when you just get up and start jumping off you just get up and start jumping off you just get up and start jumping off the diving board the diving board the diving board then so that's the connection here is then so that's the connection here is then so that's the connection here is when your team when your team when your team starts giving you their recommendation starts giving you their recommendation starts giving you their recommendation that's the big that's the big that's the big risk right when they say i recommend we risk right when they say i recommend we risk right when they say i recommend we should do this yep should do this yep should do this yep at first they're going to be insecure at first they're going to be insecure at first they're going to be insecure about it so you have to be gentle about about it so you have to be gentle about about it so you have to be gentle about what critiques you give and say look what critiques you give and say look what critiques you give and say look this is you did great here

this is you did great here this is you did great here here's a slight thing to add make sure here's a slight thing to add make sure here's a slight thing to add make sure you copy this person or let's do this you copy this person or let's do this you copy this person or let's do this too too too but awesome recommendation so that but awesome recommendation so that but awesome recommendation so that conditions them to continue wanting to conditions them to continue wanting to conditions them to continue wanting to do it do it do it and empowering them to to really do and empowering them to to really do and empowering them to to really do their job without you their job without you their job without you yeah it's at the end of the day what we yeah it's at the end of the day what we yeah it's at the end of the day what we really want so so what were the rules really want so so what were the rules really want so so what were the rules again again again number one you need a useful subject number one you need a useful subject number one you need a useful subject line okay number two line okay number two line okay number two add and make sure they include what they add and make sure they include what they add and make sure they include what they recommend number three recommend number three recommend number three any retired required context with any retired required context with any retired required context with screenshots instead of links to things screenshots instead of links to things screenshots instead of links to things got it um why not links got it um why not links got it um why not links what do links do what how do links make what do links do what how do links make what do links do what how do links make things more complicated for you things more complicated for you things more complicated for you um it breaks the yes test so i tell um it breaks the yes test so i tell um it breaks the yes test so i tell people people people there's here's the the tricky part to there's here's the the tricky part to there's here's the the tricky part to walk is walk is walk is uh i want people to know i want them to uh i want people to know i want them to uh i want people to know i want them to pretend like i'm on vacation almost pretend like i'm on vacation almost pretend like i'm on vacation almost right right right and you have to be delicate delivering and you have to be delicate delivering and you have to be delicate delivering that message that message that message but you bring it back to what they want but you bring it back to what they want but you bring it back to what they want they want they want they want growth they want to stay productive they growth they want to stay productive they growth they want to stay productive they want to show you that they can handle it want to show you that they can handle it want to show you that they can handle it and so you focus on those things that's and so you focus on those things that's and so you focus on those things that's why i don't why i don't why i don't want links is because i am on my phone want links is because i am on my phone want links is because i am on my phone and i don't i don't have a password or and i don't i don't have a password or and i don't i don't have a password or it look it's not mobile friendly if it look it's not mobile friendly if it look it's not mobile friendly if there are any of those there are any of those there are any of those still a mobile it's like a really bad still a mobile it's like a really bad still a mobile it's like a really bad interface that i don't want to go interface that i don't want to go interface that i don't want to go digging in digging in digging in just give me the screenshot because i just give me the screenshot because i just give me the screenshot because i don't really need to know all of it don't really need to know all of it don't really need to know all of it i can just scan and see it with a i can just scan and see it with a i can just scan and see it with a screenshot screenshot screenshot right and that's the thing i mean this right and that's the thing i mean this right and that's the thing i mean this may sound crazy if if you're a team of may sound crazy if if you're a team of may sound crazy if if you're a team of two people or a team of three people two people or a team of three people two people or a team of three people but you get to where you're managing six but you get to where you're managing six but you get to where you're managing six eight ten people and suddenly this

eight ten people and suddenly this eight ten people and suddenly this is a big issue because even if you're is a big issue because even if you're is a big issue because even if you're not on your phone you just can't respond not on your phone you just can't respond not on your phone you just can't respond you can't solve everyone's problems all you can't solve everyone's problems all you can't solve everyone's problems all the time right exactly you should be the time right exactly you should be the time right exactly you should be getting yourself as a manager getting yourself as a manager getting yourself as a manager or ceo or founder into a position where or ceo or founder into a position where or ceo or founder into a position where only the fi the real bad fires are only the fi the real bad fires are only the fi the real bad fires are coming up to you and coming up to you and coming up to you and it's that can be tough because then all it's that can be tough because then all it's that can be tough because then all your whole day is just fighting really your whole day is just fighting really your whole day is just fighting really bad fires and i've been there bad fires and i've been there bad fires and i've been there but um but if you know the better you but um but if you know the better you but um but if you know the better you make your team the more they can make your team the more they can make your team the more they can they can handle these so okay so you they can handle these so okay so you they can handle these so okay so you talked a little bit about like the talked a little bit about like the talked a little bit about like the beauty of doing it beauty of doing it beauty of doing it so you can go on vacation and kind of so you can go on vacation and kind of so you can go on vacation and kind of have more freedom or or get more done have more freedom or or get more done have more freedom or or get more done are there any other are there any other are there any other like in your experience why did you need like in your experience why did you need like in your experience why did you need to make these rules any other reasons to make these rules any other reasons to make these rules any other reasons beyond that beyond that beyond that yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna add like a yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna add like a yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna add like a bonus concept in here because it's one bonus concept in here because it's one bonus concept in here because it's one of my favorite analogies i think that i of my favorite analogies i think that i of my favorite analogies i think that i have have have so we had a very agile team of like so we had a very agile team of like so we had a very agile team of like three people in product three people in product three people in product and two or three people in support and and two or three people in support and and two or three people in support and we were all on a two week on hands we were all on a two week on hands we were all on a two week on hands dev call that was our best two-week call dev call that was our best two-week call dev call that was our best two-week call and i'm i wanted to eliminate and i'm i wanted to eliminate and i'm i wanted to eliminate all of the direct interruptions i really all of the direct interruptions i really all of the direct interruptions i really think it's so important think it's so important think it's so important to protect people's uninterrupted time to protect people's uninterrupted time to protect people's uninterrupted time and and and i said we need to pretend like the i said we need to pretend like the i said we need to pretend like the developers developers developers are on a ship with no communication are on a ship with no communication are on a ship with no communication they're coming into port they're coming into port they're coming into port one for one one meeting we get to load one for one one meeting we get to load one for one one meeting we get to load them up them up them up with everything we need them to do with everything we need them to do with everything we need them to do because for the first couple years because for the first couple years because for the first couple years i was constantly changing my mind i was i was constantly changing my mind i was i was constantly changing my mind i was the biggest offender right the biggest offender right the biggest offender right these rules were for me too yeah and i these rules were for me too yeah and i these rules were for me too yeah and i said nope said nope said nope we're gonna define these objectives for

we're gonna define these objectives for we're gonna define these objectives for these two weeks these two weeks these two weeks we're not going to ship course because we're not going to ship course because we're not going to ship course because that's where we lose so much that's where we lose so much that's where we lose so much not just productivity but mental health not just productivity but mental health not just productivity but mental health and people just don't they get burned and people just don't they get burned and people just don't they get burned out when you're constantly redirecting out when you're constantly redirecting out when you're constantly redirecting them them them so i said we can't add to do's to them so i said we can't add to do's to them so i said we can't add to do's to them during that the sprint once they're gone during that the sprint once they're gone during that the sprint once they're gone they go out to port they go out to port they go out to port guess what their phones will work back guess what their phones will work back guess what their phones will work back to us for emergencies for like to us for emergencies for like to us for emergencies for like hey wait what's the clarification on hey wait what's the clarification on hey wait what's the clarification on this thing and then we can connect and this thing and then we can connect and this thing and then we can connect and really quick solve it but we're not really quick solve it but we're not really quick solve it but we're not gonna change to do's gonna change to do's gonna change to do's we're not going to change priorities and we're not going to change priorities and we're not going to change priorities and what they're building this for this what they're building this for this what they're building this for this sprint and that was sprint and that was sprint and that was really helpful also yep very cool so really helpful also yep very cool so really helpful also yep very cool so i'm curious you have you know what they i'm curious you have you know what they i'm curious you have you know what they should always make a recommendation should always make a recommendation should always make a recommendation what about an issue that is is perhaps what about an issue that is is perhaps what about an issue that is is perhaps so complex so complex so complex or so challenging or someone's like i or so challenging or someone's like i or so challenging or someone's like i think there's like one of four things think there's like one of four things think there's like one of four things maybe maybe maybe it's almost kind of needs a white board it's almost kind of needs a white board it's almost kind of needs a white board of brainstorming sessions what about of brainstorming sessions what about of brainstorming sessions what about those issues what should they do with those issues what should they do with those issues what should they do with them yeah i think that comes down to them yeah i think that comes down to them yeah i think that comes down to this one extra rule is making coaching this one extra rule is making coaching this one extra rule is making coaching your team to use communicate the right your team to use communicate the right your team to use communicate the right message message message in the right channel and i made this in the right channel and i made this in the right channel and i made this mistake as an employee too where mistake as an employee too where mistake as an employee too where in a one-on-one it's i i love doing them in a one-on-one it's i i love doing them in a one-on-one it's i i love doing them i i i love being you finally get the boss's love being you finally get the boss's love being you finally get the boss's attention attention attention i really enjoyed the one-on-one time i i really enjoyed the one-on-one time i i really enjoyed the one-on-one time i would dread it leading up to it because would dread it leading up to it because would dread it leading up to it because it meant i have to stop it meant i have to stop it meant i have to stop what i was doing but like i really did what i was doing but like i really did what i was doing but like i really did enjoy developing my team enjoy developing my team enjoy developing my team um so but what they're there um so but what they're there um so but what they're there there's that connection that i think a there's that connection that i think a there's that connection that i think a lot of lot of lot of rookie employees will take that same

rookie employees will take that same rookie employees will take that same energy and tone of the meeting energy and tone of the meeting energy and tone of the meeting and they'll try to keep talking to me and they'll try to keep talking to me and they'll try to keep talking to me that way over slack that way over slack that way over slack and it's like what no that's not going and it's like what no that's not going and it's like what no that's not going to work like i think naming it you just to work like i think naming it you just to work like i think naming it you just got to name it like look this is our got to name it like look this is our got to name it like look this is our time to do this time to do this time to do this so i would on our we would use trello so i would on our we would use trello so i would on our we would use trello where they could keep kind of a where they could keep kind of a where they could keep kind of a an inbox for themselves of things that an inbox for themselves of things that an inbox for themselves of things that they wanted to talk to me about they wanted to talk to me about they wanted to talk to me about during their one-on-one yep that way during their one-on-one yep that way during their one-on-one yep that way they weren't they weren't they weren't just hey nate i have this idea yeah just hey nate i have this idea yeah just hey nate i have this idea yeah that's a and that's a real danger of that's a and that's a real danger of that's a and that's a real danger of slack um i slack um i slack um i kind of the rules that i've made with my kind of the rules that i've made with my kind of the rules that i've made with my teams over the years since slack came teams over the years since slack came teams over the years since slack came around is around is around is if you need something if something is if you need something if something is if you need something if something is truly urgent and is blocking you and you truly urgent and is blocking you and you truly urgent and is blocking you and you need an answer in the next 20 minutes need an answer in the next 20 minutes need an answer in the next 20 minutes then slack me yep then slack me yep then slack me yep but if you can wait uh i don't know but if you can wait uh i don't know but if you can wait uh i don't know two to four hours then email me and two to four hours then email me and two to four hours then email me and frankly i'm faster than that if they frankly i'm faster than that if they frankly i'm faster than that if they give me email like this i'm way faster give me email like this i'm way faster give me email like this i'm way faster right and then um i don't remember what right and then um i don't remember what right and then um i don't remember what overnight is overnight is overnight is i don't know carrier pigeon or something i don't know carrier pigeon or something i don't know carrier pigeon or something but okay cool so as we wrap up we have a but okay cool so as we wrap up we have a but okay cool so as we wrap up we have a couple minutes left couple minutes left couple minutes left um obviously this can be a big change um obviously this can be a big change um obviously this can be a big change for folks and you can coach him into it for folks and you can coach him into it for folks and you can coach him into it but are there other ways to implement but are there other ways to implement but are there other ways to implement this how would you advise that you know this how would you advise that you know this how would you advise that you know a founder a founder a founder listening to this role this out yeah so listening to this role this out yeah so listening to this role this out yeah so i put together this morning because i i put together this morning because i i put together this morning because i was like huh this is good was like huh this is good was like huh this is good for you guys to know you want but i put for you guys to know you want but i put for you guys to know you want but i put together a quick training together a quick training together a quick training literally like before i came in this literally like before i came in this literally like before i came in this morning and i'm going to share it in the morning and i'm going to share it in the morning and i'm going to share it in the slack group i'll give it to xander he'll slack group i'll give it to xander he'll slack group i'll give it to xander he'll post a quick 10 minute training post a quick 10 minute training post a quick 10 minute training and i delivered this same content but and i delivered this same content but and i delivered this same content but direct as if it's a training for your direct as if it's a training for your direct as if it's a training for your team to watch team to watch team to watch so you could just hear the link and say so you could just hear the link and say so you could just hear the link and say hey guys i

hey guys i hey guys i what do you think about this new what do you think about this new what do you think about this new strategy to help us strategy to help us strategy to help us to help me uh give you answers faster to help me uh give you answers faster to help me uh give you answers faster um but i think the bigger thing is just um but i think the bigger thing is just um but i think the bigger thing is just having humility having humility having humility apologizing i think some of the best apologizing i think some of the best apologizing i think some of the best things i did as leaders apologize things i did as leaders apologize things i did as leaders apologize when i made a mistake like look guys i'm when i made a mistake like look guys i'm when i made a mistake like look guys i'm new at this i'm sorry new at this i'm sorry new at this i'm sorry i'm sorry this i i dropped the ball here i'm sorry this i i dropped the ball here i'm sorry this i i dropped the ball here um um um i i was i i tried to get too much in the i i was i i tried to get too much in the i i was i i tried to get too much in the weeds and i cuz i like it weeds and i cuz i like it weeds and i cuz i like it but you know what i hired you for a but you know what i hired you for a but you know what i hired you for a reason you're super talented at what you reason you're super talented at what you reason you're super talented at what you do do do you should just go do it uh and so you should just go do it uh and so you should just go do it uh and so these rules are as much for me getting these rules are as much for me getting these rules are as much for me getting out of your way out of your way out of your way as they are for you to be productive and as they are for you to be productive and as they are for you to be productive and really enjoy your job really enjoy your job really enjoy your job i think that's a really important way to i think that's a really important way to i think that's a really important way to think about it too so we will think about it too so we will think about it too so we will get those into shindig we'll get it to get those into shindig we'll get it to get those into shindig we'll get it to producer xander as well as the microconf producer xander as well as the microconf producer xander as well as the microconf connect slack awesome nate graham thank connect slack awesome nate graham thank connect slack awesome nate graham thank you so much sir good honor to be here you so much sir good honor to be here you so much sir good honor to be here man thank you so much man thank you so much man thank you so much thanks for all of the investment and the thanks for all of the investment and the thanks for all of the investment and the time and energy to this community i know time and energy to this community i know time and energy to this community i know this is weirdly this is weirdly this is weirdly remote but man what this is such an remote but man what this is such an remote but man what this is such an honor to be here and honor to be here and honor to be here and it's so cool to see you still making an it's so cool to see you still making an it's so cool to see you still making an effort to bring what can be like lonely effort to bring what can be like lonely effort to bring what can be like lonely as entrepreneurs i think this is really as entrepreneurs i think this is really as entrepreneurs i think this is really important that we're doing this so important that we're doing this so important that we're doing this so thanks a lot thanks a lot thanks a lot thanks sir so thanks sir so thanks sir so our our next guest um is our our next guest um is our our next guest um is the co-founder of hey hey.com and so the co-founder of hey hey.com and so the co-founder of hey hey.com and so um hey is a a headline sponsor headline um hey is a a headline sponsor headline um hey is a a headline sponsor headline partner of partner of partner of microconf and startups for the rest of microconf and startups for the rest of microconf and startups for the rest of us in 2020 and they've been a great us in 2020 and they've been a great us in 2020 and they've been a great supporter of ours supporter of ours supporter of ours for the past several years and you know

for the past several years and you know for the past several years and you know our next guest jason free joined me our next guest jason free joined me our next guest jason free joined me on stage last year at microcomp growth on stage last year at microcomp growth on stage last year at microcomp growth we had a really good we had a really good we had a really good q a session and conversation where he q a session and conversation where he q a session and conversation where he answered questions about answered questions about answered questions about the early days of base camp he took the early days of base camp he took the early days of base camp he took questions from the audience and was questions from the audience and was questions from the audience and was just very gracious with his time and and just very gracious with his time and and just very gracious with his time and and we really appreciated it we really appreciated it we really appreciated it and uh you know hey has launched this and uh you know hey has launched this and uh you know hey has launched this year this is the new product coming out year this is the new product coming out year this is the new product coming out of base camp of base camp of base camp um and hey has been as i said you know a um and hey has been as i said you know a um and hey has been as i said you know a sponsor and they've come alongside to sponsor and they've come alongside to sponsor and they've come alongside to to try to help this bootstrap indie to try to help this bootstrap indie to try to help this bootstrap indie funded community and and help funded community and and help funded community and and help us be able to provide events like this us be able to provide events like this us be able to provide events like this to you because these to you because these to you because these types of events we'd have to charge a types of events we'd have to charge a types of events we'd have to charge a lot more for them lot more for them lot more for them if we didn't have sponsors like hey um if we didn't have sponsors like hey um if we didn't have sponsors like hey um so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out to hey on twitter and just thank them to hey on twitter and just thank them to hey on twitter and just thank them for supporting for supporting for supporting this bootstrapped community and with this bootstrapped community and with this bootstrapped community and with that i'd love to that i'd love to that i'd love to welcome jason fried the co-founder of welcome jason fried the co-founder of welcome jason fried the co-founder of base camp to the show base camp to the show base camp to the show um you know obviously he's one of the um you know obviously he's one of the um you know obviously he's one of the original badass bootstrappers that has original badass bootstrappers that has original badass bootstrappers that has consistently provided guidance and good consistently provided guidance and good consistently provided guidance and good advice to founders for advice to founders for advice to founders for going on two decades now several books going on two decades now several books going on two decades now several books written with his co-founder dhh written with his co-founder dhh written with his co-founder dhh and obviously an outlier that's you know and obviously an outlier that's you know and obviously an outlier that's you know taking a stair-step approach to the very taking a stair-step approach to the very taking a stair-step approach to the very top top top started building mean prep to take their started building mean prep to take their started building mean prep to take their companies to new heights it's like he he companies to new heights it's like he he companies to new heights it's like he he added many zeros to the added many zeros to the added many zeros to the to the formula that i think most of us to the formula that i think most of us to the formula that i think most of us uh ascribe to so this is an uh ascribe to so this is an uh ascribe to so this is an ama and ask him anything this is here to ama and ask him anything this is here to ama and ask him anything this is here to answer all your questions about answer all your questions about answer all your questions about what it was like to build hay how the what it was like to build hay how the what it was like to build hay how the successes of base camp served as a basis successes of base camp served as a basis successes of base camp served as a basis for the launch of hay for the launch of hay for the launch of hay and really anything you'd like to ask and really anything you'd like to ask and really anything you'd like to ask them about that i also have a few them about that i also have a few them about that i also have a few questions um to kick us off but you can

questions um to kick us off but you can questions um to kick us off but you can just use the question button in shindig just use the question button in shindig just use the question button in shindig and it's it's down below you and we'll and it's it's down below you and we'll and it's it's down below you and we'll try to get to as many of them try to get to as many of them try to get to as many of them as possible my guess is based on how as possible my guess is based on how as possible my guess is based on how these things normally go with jason these things normally go with jason these things normally go with jason there will be more questions that we can there will be more questions that we can there will be more questions that we can possibly answer but we have about um possibly answer but we have about um possibly answer but we have about um well just under 30 minutes now to roll well just under 30 minutes now to roll well just under 30 minutes now to roll in in in so jason sir thank you so much for so jason sir thank you so much for so jason sir thank you so much for sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again oh it's great to be here thanks for oh it's great to be here thanks for oh it's great to be here thanks for having me back yeah it's awesome awesome having me back yeah it's awesome awesome having me back yeah it's awesome awesome to see you again to see you again to see you again are you uh are you in chicago or are you uh are you in chicago or are you uh are you in chicago or california california california i'm currently in california yeah but i'm currently in california yeah but i'm currently in california yeah but primarily primarily primarily living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and sunny outside there so i was thinking sunny outside there so i was thinking sunny outside there so i was thinking you might be on you might be on you might be on on a coast there somewhere so for for on a coast there somewhere so for for on a coast there somewhere so for for folks who don't know so folks who don't know so folks who don't know so anyone can email me rob walling hey.com anyone can email me rob walling hey.com anyone can email me rob walling hey.com if you want to hit my hey inbox um but if you want to hit my hey inbox um but if you want to hit my hey inbox um but hey hey hey is an email service that doesn't you is an email service that doesn't you is an email service that doesn't you know so i wanna i wanna set the stage know so i wanna i wanna set the stage know so i wanna i wanna set the stage right there's gmail right there's gmail right there's gmail and then superhuman launched a few years and then superhuman launched a few years and then superhuman launched a few years ago and superhuman is built on top of ago and superhuman is built on top of ago and superhuman is built on top of gmail so you need a gmail or google apps gmail so you need a gmail or google apps gmail so you need a gmail or google apps account to use it account to use it account to use it hey is not that hey is is next to gmail hey is not that hey is is next to gmail hey is not that hey is is next to gmail like you have like you have like you have bare bones servers smtp top three bare bones servers smtp top three bare bones servers smtp top three all that stuff right it's it you have all that stuff right it's it you have all that stuff right it's it you have you have the entire infrastructure in you have the entire infrastructure in you have the entire infrastructure in place place place yeah hey is an email service so just yeah hey is an email service so just yeah hey is an email service so just like when you sign up for gmail you get like when you sign up for gmail you get like when you sign up for gmail you get a gmail.com address a gmail.com address a gmail.com address if you sign up for hey you get it if you sign up for hey you get it if you sign up for hey you get it hey.comhey.com so we are a provider hey.comhey.com so we are a provider hey.comhey.com so we are a provider you don't need to use google you don't you don't need to use google you don't you don't need to use google you don't need to use outlook you don't need to need to use outlook you don't need to need to use outlook you don't need to use apple icloud you don't need to use use apple icloud you don't need to use use apple icloud you don't need to use any other email provider any other email provider any other email provider and the reason we did that is because we and the reason we did that is because we and the reason we did that is because we wanted to innovate we wanted to make new wanted to innovate we wanted to make new wanted to innovate we wanted to make new something new something new something new and if you're riding on top of someone and if you're riding on top of someone and if you're riding on top of someone else's platform like most email clients

else's platform like most email clients else's platform like most email clients sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp provider provider provider you there's not a lot you can really do you there's not a lot you can really do you there's not a lot you can really do because you're beholden to how they do because you're beholden to how they do because you're beholden to how they do things so if you want to do something things so if you want to do something things so if you want to do something new new new you've got to start from the ground up you've got to start from the ground up you've got to start from the ground up um you've got to be vertically um you've got to be vertically um you've got to be vertically integrated in that way integrated in that way integrated in that way and that's where you can really make and that's where you can really make and that's where you can really make some changes and some changes and some changes and you know so obviously i mean base camp you know so obviously i mean base camp you know so obviously i mean base camp is an amazing success story is an amazing success story is an amazing success story but you know compared let's compare your but you know compared let's compare your but you know compared let's compare your revenue to google microsoft apple these revenue to google microsoft apple these revenue to google microsoft apple these other companies you're competing with other companies you're competing with other companies you're competing with it's there's there's a lot of zeros it's there's there's a lot of zeros it's there's there's a lot of zeros difference there so difference there so difference there so a lot yeah i mean yeah a lot yeah i mean yeah a lot yeah i mean yeah yeah what i guess you know what is in yeah what i guess you know what is in yeah what i guess you know what is in your dna your dna your dna you know the dna base camp that that you know the dna base camp that that you know the dna base camp that that convinced you guys that hey we can take convinced you guys that hey we can take convinced you guys that hey we can take on these these bigger players on these these bigger players on these these bigger players well for one i mean yeah technically well for one i mean yeah technically well for one i mean yeah technically we're taking them on because a lot of we're taking them on because a lot of we're taking them on because a lot of our customers our customers our customers have switched over um from from have switched over um from from have switched over um from from gmail for primarily from gmail over to gmail for primarily from gmail over to gmail for primarily from gmail over to hey so technically yes we're competing hey so technically yes we're competing hey so technically yes we're competing but not really and what i mean by that but not really and what i mean by that but not really and what i mean by that is i think is i think is i think gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts on gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts on gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts on gmail gmail gmail we're not going to have that we're not we're not going to have that we're not we're not going to have that we're not looking for that looking for that looking for that we're not even in that realm and we we're not even in that realm and we we're not even in that realm and we don't want to be don't want to be don't want to be you know we're a paid service so we're you know we're a paid service so we're you know we're a paid service so we're not giving email away for free not giving email away for free not giving email away for free and just like with base camp you know if and just like with base camp you know if and just like with base camp you know if we get a hundred thousand paid customers we get a hundred thousand paid customers we get a hundred thousand paid customers we're in a pretty good position so we're in a pretty good position so we're in a pretty good position so that's kind of what we're looking for that's kind of what we're looking for that's kind of what we're looking for we're looking for people who really care we're looking for people who really care we're looking for people who really care about email who about email who about email who are frustrated to no end with it looking are frustrated to no end with it looking are frustrated to no end with it looking for something new looking for something

for something new looking for something for something new looking for something that's private that's private that's private looking for something that's not going looking for something that's not going looking for something that's not going to mind your data and looking at to mind your data and looking at to mind your data and looking at something that has built-in workflows something that has built-in workflows something that has built-in workflows and not workarounds and not workarounds and not workarounds and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of those kinds of people those kinds of people those kinds of people we're we're in a good place so we don't we're we're in a good place so we don't we're we're in a good place so we don't need to match google or outlook or need to match google or outlook or need to match google or outlook or or or yahoo different game although or or yahoo different game although or or yahoo different game although we're playing the same by some of the we're playing the same by some of the we're playing the same by some of the same rules and that we're a service same rules and that we're a service same rules and that we're a service provider like they are but but our provider like they are but but our provider like they are but but our approach is very different so approach is very different so approach is very different so yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing we've ever done and i mean that in the we've ever done and i mean that in the we've ever done and i mean that in the most most most you know appealing way um but we're also you know appealing way um but we're also you know appealing way um but we're also not really trying we're like for us not really trying we're like for us not really trying we're like for us we're not going to look and go like we're not going to look and go like we're not going to look and go like we didn't we didn't get you know we we didn't we didn't get you know we we didn't we didn't get you know we didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's just not how we look at things in just not how we look at things in just not how we look at things in general general general yeah that makes sense here's the other yeah that makes sense here's the other yeah that makes sense here's the other thing i want to say about this is that thing i want to say about this is that thing i want to say about this is that companies have their own economics companies have their own economics companies have their own economics and this is something you don't hear and this is something you don't hear and this is something you don't hear enough about in my opinion which is that enough about in my opinion which is that enough about in my opinion which is that people are like well how do you compete people are like well how do you compete people are like well how do you compete with them and how do you compete with with them and how do you compete with with them and how do you compete with them and well one of the first questions them and well one of the first questions them and well one of the first questions i would ask is like i would ask is like i would ask is like what are your costs because if your what are your costs because if your what are your costs because if your costs are a lot less than everyone costs are a lot less than everyone costs are a lot less than everyone else's costs else's costs else's costs then you can afford to compete in a then you can afford to compete in a then you can afford to compete in a different level like if we had to get a different level like if we had to get a different level like if we had to get a billion signups to make this thing billion signups to make this thing billion signups to make this thing viable for us well then we're probably viable for us well then we're probably viable for us well then we're probably not going to be not going to be not going to be gmail but we don't need that we need gmail but we don't need that we need gmail but we don't need that we need tens of thousands or a hundred thousand tens of thousands or a hundred thousand tens of thousands or a hundred thousand or a couple hundred thousand like over a or a couple hundred thousand like over a or a couple hundred thousand like over a number of years because our cost number of years because our cost number of years because our cost structure structure structure is is set up completely differently we is is set up completely differently we is is set up completely differently we don't need that much to cover our cost don't need that much to cover our cost don't need that much to cover our cost compared to what compared to what compared to what google does of course when they have you google does of course when they have you google does of course when they have you know tens of thousands of employees so know tens of thousands of employees so know tens of thousands of employees so you got to start with that and then then you got to start with that and then then you got to start with that and then then you can sort of figure out what makes you can sort of figure out what makes you can sort of figure out what makes sense for you it doesn't you don't have sense for you it doesn't you don't have sense for you it doesn't you don't have to to to do what someone else does you got to do

do what someone else does you got to do do what someone else does you got to do what works for you what works for you what works for you and that's really an important thing i and that's really an important thing i and that's really an important thing i think for entrepreneurs think for entrepreneurs think for entrepreneurs yeah no i think that's really important yeah no i think that's really important yeah no i think that's really important thanks for calling that out you thanks for calling that out you thanks for calling that out you mentioned a couple mentioned a couple mentioned a couple differentiators you know you said you're differentiators you know you said you're differentiators you know you said you're very privacy focused very privacy focused very privacy focused uh workflows not workarounds um do you uh workflows not workarounds um do you uh workflows not workarounds um do you want to dive into those two and maybe if want to dive into those two and maybe if want to dive into those two and maybe if there are any others that are you know there are any others that are you know there are any others that are you know common talking points about how you are common talking points about how you are common talking points about how you are different why you're different than different why you're different than different why you're different than these other providers these other providers these other providers yeah for sure let's start with privacy yeah for sure let's start with privacy yeah for sure let's start with privacy um one of the big problems with email um one of the big problems with email um one of the big problems with email and i'm going to hit it from a couple and i'm going to hit it from a couple and i'm going to hit it from a couple different angles but one of the big different angles but one of the big different angles but one of the big problems with email of course is that problems with email of course is that problems with email of course is that you're not in control of who can contact you're not in control of who can contact you're not in control of who can contact you it used to be that you'd give out you it used to be that you'd give out you it used to be that you'd give out your email address to someone your email address to someone your email address to someone and only that person would have it and and only that person would have it and and only that person would have it and you that was how you kept control over you that was how you kept control over you that was how you kept control over who can get touch with you but who can get touch with you but who can get touch with you but these days your email address has been these days your email address has been these days your email address has been bought and sold and traded and posted bought and sold and traded and posted bought and sold and traded and posted online online online it's everywhere so we've stopped being it's everywhere so we've stopped being it's everywhere so we've stopped being in control in control in control of who can get in touch with us which is of who can get in touch with us which is of who can get in touch with us which is a problem if someone calls your cell a problem if someone calls your cell a problem if someone calls your cell phone phone phone and you don't recognize the number you and you don't recognize the number you and you don't recognize the number you just don't pick it up it's very there's just don't pick it up it's very there's just don't pick it up it's very there's very little effort just to go ah very little effort just to go ah very little effort just to go ah no with email anyone who emails you no with email anyone who emails you no with email anyone who emails you basically lands in your inbox basically lands in your inbox basically lands in your inbox this is a problem it's a fundamental this is a problem it's a fundamental this is a problem it's a fundamental problem with email today problem with email today problem with email today so with hey you get to decide who can so with hey you get to decide who can so with hey you get to decide who can email you email you email you the first time somebody emails you you the first time somebody emails you you the first time somebody emails you you give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down and if they're thumbs down you'll never and if they're thumbs down you'll never and if they're thumbs down you'll never hear from them again hear from them again hear from them again so that's one version of privacy which so that's one version of privacy which so that's one version of privacy which is that you are in control who can get is that you are in control who can get is that you are in control who can get in touch with you you're in control who in touch with you you're in control who in touch with you you're in control who can communicate with you can communicate with you can communicate with you the other side of course is that we um the other side of course is that we um the other side of course is that we um we don't sell ads so we're not mining we don't sell ads so we're not mining we don't sell ads so we're not mining your data we're not looking at your data your data we're not looking at your data your data we're not looking at your data we're not pulling anything out of your we're not pulling anything out of your we're not pulling anything out of your data data data not interesting to us don't want to do not interesting to us don't want to do not interesting to us don't want to do that ever and also that ever and also that ever and also we um we block trackers so

we um we block trackers so we um we block trackers so what a lot of people don't know is these what a lot of people don't know is these what a lot of people don't know is these days by simply opening an email days by simply opening an email days by simply opening an email with no indication this is the case if with no indication this is the case if with no indication this is the case if you just open an email you just open an email you just open an email the sender the person who sent it to you the sender the person who sent it to you the sender the person who sent it to you can receive all sorts of personal can receive all sorts of personal can receive all sorts of personal information about you information about you information about you how long you read the email if you how long you read the email if you how long you read the email if you opened it how often you opened it what opened it how often you opened it what opened it how often you opened it what kind of phone you have what brand kind of phone you have what brand kind of phone you have what brand computer you have what time it was your computer you have what time it was your computer you have what time it was your ip address which they can give you ip address which they can give you ip address which they can give you you know basically get you down to some you know basically get you down to some you know basically get you down to some local information that way as well local information that way as well local information that way as well we block all that so if someone tries to we block all that so if someone tries to we block all that so if someone tries to include a tracker an email and you're a include a tracker an email and you're a include a tracker an email and you're a hey.com customer they will not know hey.com customer they will not know hey.com customer they will not know anything about you so we're protecting anything about you so we're protecting anything about you so we're protecting your privacy on that side too so one your privacy on that side too so one your privacy on that side too so one number one is control number one is control number one is control number two is on the back end we're number two is on the back end we're number two is on the back end we're making sure that nobody learns anything making sure that nobody learns anything making sure that nobody learns anything about you about your behavior no one about you about your behavior no one about you about your behavior no one tracks you tracks you tracks you simply by opening an email now that's simply by opening an email now that's simply by opening an email now that's some of the privacy stuff some of the privacy stuff some of the privacy stuff there's a bunch of other things as well there's a bunch of other things as well there's a bunch of other things as well but the the bigger thing though to me is but the the bigger thing though to me is but the the bigger thing though to me is is the workflow situation is the workflow situation is the workflow situation what's amazing to me about email is that what's amazing to me about email is that what's amazing to me about email is that email has not evolved email has not evolved email has not evolved for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail came out came out came out and it felt different it had new ideas and it felt different it had new ideas and it felt different it had new ideas in it in it in it the thing is is that we're still stuck the thing is is that we're still stuck the thing is is that we're still stuck doing the same things we've always done doing the same things we've always done doing the same things we've always done and no one's really come up with better and no one's really come up with better and no one's really come up with better workflows for example workflows for example workflows for example simple one someone sends you an email simple one someone sends you an email simple one someone sends you an email and you need to get back to someone and you need to get back to someone and you need to get back to someone later comment this happens later comment this happens later comment this happens all the time it's like yeah i gotta get all the time it's like yeah i gotta get all the time it's like yeah i gotta get back to that person later so what do you back to that person later so what do you back to that person later so what do you do do do you hack you hack it you like mark it on you hack you hack it you like mark it on you hack you hack it you like mark it on red red red again maybe you star it or flag it maybe again maybe you star it or flag it maybe again maybe you star it or flag it maybe you you you maybe you make a folder or a label and maybe you make a folder or a label and maybe you make a folder or a label and put some stuff in there maybe you snooze put some stuff in there maybe you snooze put some stuff in there maybe you snooze it it it none of those things have anything to do none of those things have anything to do none of those things have anything to do with

with with the mental understanding that i need to the mental understanding that i need to the mental understanding that i need to get back to someone later get back to someone later get back to someone later so you're hacking around with so you're hacking around with so you're hacking around with workarounds to try to remember that you workarounds to try to remember that you workarounds to try to remember that you need to do something later need to do something later need to do something later and you're using all these different and you're using all these different and you're using all these different things that aren't quite right so with things that aren't quite right so with things that aren't quite right so with hey which of a button on every email hey which of a button on every email hey which of a button on every email that says reply later that says reply later that says reply later and when you say reply later it goes and when you say reply later it goes and when you say reply later it goes into a nice pile along with all the into a nice pile along with all the into a nice pile along with all the other emails that you said reply later other emails that you said reply later other emails that you said reply later to to to then you can go into a mode called focus then you can go into a mode called focus then you can go into a mode called focus and reply you click that it opens up and reply you click that it opens up and reply you click that it opens up all those emails it stacks them one on all those emails it stacks them one on all those emails it stacks them one on top of the other and lets you simply top of the other and lets you simply top of the other and lets you simply reply to those one after another reply to those one after another reply to those one after another without being interrupted or distracted without being interrupted or distracted without being interrupted or distracted by anything else that's happening by anything else that's happening by anything else that's happening and it's an entirely different way and it's an entirely different way and it's an entirely different way to work on email and it saves you it to work on email and it saves you it to work on email and it saves you it saves me hours a week saves me hours a week saves me hours a week which is significant um and which is significant um and which is significant um and it saves me a lot of hassle and it it saves me a lot of hassle and it it saves me a lot of hassle and it allows me to say okay i've got like 30 allows me to say okay i've got like 30 allows me to say okay i've got like 30 minutes now i'm going to knock out all minutes now i'm going to knock out all minutes now i'm going to knock out all my emails at the end of the day my emails at the end of the day my emails at the end of the day i know exactly where they are nothing i know exactly where they are nothing i know exactly where they are nothing else is going to get my way so else is going to get my way so else is going to get my way so we've got a dozen or so of those kinds we've got a dozen or so of those kinds we've got a dozen or so of those kinds of workflows built into hay of workflows built into hay of workflows built into hay versus workarounds where you're trying versus workarounds where you're trying versus workarounds where you're trying to make one thing do something else so to make one thing do something else so to make one thing do something else so we thought about all that stuff and we we thought about all that stuff and we we thought about all that stuff and we were so frustrated by the fact that like were so frustrated by the fact that like were so frustrated by the fact that like email just hasn't changed in so long email just hasn't changed in so long email just hasn't changed in so long it's time to do something new and that's it's time to do something new and that's it's time to do something new and that's what hay's all about what hay's all about what hay's all about awesome we have a we have questions awesome we have a we have questions awesome we have a we have questions pouring in from the listeners as you pouring in from the listeners as you pouring in from the listeners as you would expect would expect would expect um i want to jump down to one producer um i want to jump down to one producer um i want to jump down to one producer zander from brian zander from brian zander from brian yiddo because it ties into something i yiddo because it ties into something i yiddo because it ties into something i was going to ask you about anyways jason was going to ask you about anyways jason was going to ask you about anyways jason this question is how is hayes pushback this question is how is hayes pushback this question is how is hayes pushback on apple's app store on apple's app store on apple's app store terms of service going and if you terms of service going and if you terms of service going and if you wouldn't mind just giving a wouldn't mind just giving a wouldn't mind just giving a you know a couple sentences or one you know a couple sentences or one you know a couple sentences or one minute description of what happened

minute description of what happened minute description of what happened there with apple there with apple there with apple uh to catch people up and then talk uh to catch people up and then talk uh to catch people up and then talk about you know has there been a about you know has there been a about you know has there been a resolution and what that's been resolution and what that's been resolution and what that's been yeah of course um so yeah of course um so yeah of course um so when we launched hey we put 1.0 version when we launched hey we put 1.0 version when we launched hey we put 1.0 version 1.0 in the app store apple app store and 1.0 in the app store apple app store and 1.0 in the app store apple app store and android store android store android store both were approved which was wonderful both were approved which was wonderful both were approved which was wonderful and then we were and then we were and then we were we we put a 1.0.2 bug release version we we put a 1.0.2 bug release version we we put a 1.0.2 bug release version or update into the app store in the or update into the app store in the or update into the app store in the apple app store a few days later apple app store a few days later apple app store a few days later and apple rejected it and they rejected and apple rejected it and they rejected and apple rejected it and they rejected it even though it even though it even though nothing materially changed they rejected nothing materially changed they rejected nothing materially changed they rejected on the ground that we weren't giving on the ground that we weren't giving on the ground that we weren't giving them 30 percent of our revenue them 30 percent of our revenue them 30 percent of our revenue because we were selling a subscription because we were selling a subscription because we were selling a subscription service and somehow that slipped by the service and somehow that slipped by the service and somehow that slipped by the reviewers in the first place is reviewers in the first place is reviewers in the first place is what apple claimed um and so we got in what apple claimed um and so we got in what apple claimed um and so we got in this battle with apple basically apple this battle with apple basically apple this battle with apple basically apple said you have to give us 30 said you have to give us 30 said you have to give us 30 of your revenues and we said we're not of your revenues and we said we're not of your revenues and we said we're not giving you 30 of our revenues giving you 30 of our revenues giving you 30 of our revenues um and they gave us some other things um and they gave us some other things um and they gave us some other things and this basically kind of blew up in and this basically kind of blew up in and this basically kind of blew up in the press we went to the press over the press we went to the press over the press we went to the press over because it was a strong arm tactic by because it was a strong arm tactic by because it was a strong arm tactic by apple apple apple to extract 30 percent of our business to extract 30 percent of our business to extract 30 percent of our business which they are not entitled to um the which they are not entitled to um the which they are not entitled to um the problem is that on ios of course problem is that on ios of course problem is that on ios of course everybody knows you don't have choice so everybody knows you don't have choice so everybody knows you don't have choice so we can't sell we can't even mention that we can't sell we can't even mention that we can't sell we can't even mention that we can sell our product some other way we can sell our product some other way we can sell our product some other way we can't mention billing we can't we can't mention billing we can't we can't mention billing we can't mention credit cards we can't mention mention credit cards we can't mention mention credit cards we can't mention sign up can't mention all these things sign up can't mention all these things sign up can't mention all these things and we didn't mention any of those and we didn't mention any of those and we didn't mention any of those things things things long story short is um we got into a big long story short is um we got into a big long story short is um we got into a big public uh public uh public uh battle with apple over this um it was battle with apple over this um it was battle with apple over this um it was all over the press for about a week all over the press for about a week all over the press for about a week and um we we didn't give in on terms of and um we we didn't give in on terms of and um we we didn't give in on terms of the 30 we're not paying them 30 percent the 30 we're not paying them 30 percent the 30 we're not paying them 30 percent but what we did eventually come to terms but what we did eventually come to terms but what we did eventually come to terms with with them over was um

with with them over was um with with them over was um we introduced a slightly well free we introduced a slightly well free we introduced a slightly well free version uh of hey that's available on version uh of hey that's available on version uh of hey that's available on ios ios ios which is a slightly different version which is a slightly different version which is a slightly different version from our main product and if you still from our main product and if you still from our main product and if you still want to buy hey want to buy hey want to buy hey the full version you still go to hey.com the full version you still go to hey.com the full version you still go to hey.com and you buy it there and you buy it there and you buy it there but at least when you load the app up but at least when you load the app up but at least when you load the app up there's something that you can sign up there's something that you can sign up there's something that you can sign up for for for that doesn't require visiting our that doesn't require visiting our that doesn't require visiting our website so it turned out that apple was website so it turned out that apple was website so it turned out that apple was comfortable with that we're still not comfortable with that we're still not comfortable with that we're still not giving them 30 giving them 30 giving them 30 of our revenue um but they were of our revenue um but they were of our revenue um but they were comfortable with at least the app doing comfortable with at least the app doing comfortable with at least the app doing something on something on something on on launch um but the the bigger thing on launch um but the the bigger thing on launch um but the the bigger thing here is not here is not here is not there's a few things going on so there's there's a few things going on so there's there's a few things going on so there's the 30 which of course i think is just the 30 which of course i think is just the 30 which of course i think is just you know uh usury it's it's it's unfair you know uh usury it's it's it's unfair you know uh usury it's it's it's unfair it's too it's too much it's too it's too much it's too it's too much first of all but it's deeper than that first of all but it's deeper than that first of all but it's deeper than that and this is i think will resonate with and this is i think will resonate with and this is i think will resonate with with people who are who are with people who are who are with people who are who are watching this who are entrepreneurs watching this who are entrepreneurs watching this who are entrepreneurs which is that i do not believe which is that i do not believe which is that i do not believe that a company any company should be that a company any company should be that a company any company should be able to tell me how i able to tell me how i able to tell me how i can service and treat my customers one can service and treat my customers one can service and treat my customers one of the big of the big of the big unknown things about the app store is unknown things about the app store is unknown things about the app store is that when that when that when if you use the in-app payment system if you use the in-app payment system if you use the in-app payment system that apple requires you to use if you that apple requires you to use if you that apple requires you to use if you sell products through apple sell products through apple sell products through apple is that you cannot provide your is that you cannot provide your is that you cannot provide your customers a certain level of customer customers a certain level of customer customers a certain level of customer service if you have a billing issue you service if you have a billing issue you service if you have a billing issue you have to defer them to apple have to defer them to apple have to defer them to apple if you want to give them a discount you if you want to give them a discount you if you want to give them a discount you can't if you want to give them half off can't if you want to give them half off can't if you want to give them half off you can't you can't you can't if you want to give them a hardship if you want to give them a hardship if you want to give them a hardship discount you can't for example discount you can't for example discount you can't for example when covid first hit a lot of our when covid first hit a lot of our when covid first hit a lot of our customers on base camp wrote us saying customers on base camp wrote us saying customers on base camp wrote us saying hey we're small businesses this is hey we're small businesses this is hey we're small businesses this is really going to get take a big hit this really going to get take a big hit this really going to get take a big hit this is really hard for us we said is really hard for us we said is really hard for us we said we'll give you a couple months free we'll give you a couple months free we'll give you a couple months free don't worry about it like we'll help you don't worry about it like we'll help you don't worry about it like we'll help you out we're here to help you out we're here to help you out we're here to help you you can't do that once you've given your

you can't do that once you've given your you can't do that once you've given your customer to apple because you're not in customer to apple because you're not in customer to apple because you're not in control of the billing system control of the billing system control of the billing system so now i have two tiers of customers i so now i have two tiers of customers i so now i have two tiers of customers i have the customers i can really help the have the customers i can really help the have the customers i can really help the way i want to help them way i want to help them way i want to help them and i have the customers have to say and i have the customers have to say and i have the customers have to say well you got to go talk to apple and by well you got to go talk to apple and by well you got to go talk to apple and by the way apple's not going to be able to the way apple's not going to be able to the way apple's not going to be able to help you because that's not what the help you because that's not what the help you because that's not what the business apple's in business apple's in business apple's in it's not apple's right to be able to do it's not apple's right to be able to do it's not apple's right to be able to do that to me that to me that to me they're a one trillion dollar company they're a one trillion dollar company they're a one trillion dollar company why should they tell me how i can why should they tell me how i can why should they tell me how i can provide service to my customers it's provide service to my customers it's provide service to my customers it's completely completely completely abhorrent to me and i'm not going to abhorrent to me and i'm not going to abhorrent to me and i'm not going to give in to that so that was another big give in to that so that was another big give in to that so that was another big big angle that we pushed all this big angle that we pushed all this big angle that we pushed all this forward and out there and a lot of forward and out there and a lot of forward and out there and a lot of people started to pay attention and saw people started to pay attention and saw people started to pay attention and saw people came out of the woodwork saying people came out of the woodwork saying people came out of the woodwork saying apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been pushing us and bullying us apple's been pushing us and bullying us apple's been pushing us and bullying us for years and i think it created a for years and i think it created a for years and i think it created a groundswell of of um groundswell of of um groundswell of of um of interest and excitement and then you of interest and excitement and then you of interest and excitement and then you know apple changed the rules at wwc know apple changed the rules at wwc know apple changed the rules at wwc the following week um hopefully the following week um hopefully the following week um hopefully influenced a little bit by what we did influenced a little bit by what we did influenced a little bit by what we did and hopefully over time they'll change and hopefully over time they'll change and hopefully over time they'll change them more and more and more and give them more and more and more and give them more and more and more and give developers choice developers choice developers choice i can go into more detail but i want to i can go into more detail but i want to i can go into more detail but i want to take over all the time but that's kind take over all the time but that's kind take over all the time but that's kind of of of how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank you sir you sir you sir good explanation um completely another good explanation um completely another good explanation um completely another direction we have a question from direction we have a question from direction we have a question from wang von and he says is hey using ruby wang von and he says is hey using ruby wang von and he says is hey using ruby on the back end on the back end on the back end oh yes all of our products are built on oh yes all of our products are built on oh yes all of our products are built on on rails on rails on rails um so yep hey base camp high rise um so yep hey base camp high rise um so yep hey base camp high rise campfire backpack everything campfire backpack everything campfire backpack everything from this point back forward or four or from this point back forward or four or from this point back forward or four or backwards and forwards is built on rails backwards and forwards is built on rails backwards and forwards is built on rails there's other technologies we're using there's other technologies we're using there's other technologies we're using as well but as well but as well but rails rails is the predominant uh rails rails is the predominant uh rails rails is the predominant uh language behind everything language behind everything language behind everything yep or framework um

ah i'm trying to figure out if i ah i'm trying to figure out if i understand this question it's from understand this question it's from understand this question it's from adrian fletcher adrian fletcher adrian fletcher and it says what features were basecamp and it says what features were basecamp and it says what features were basecamp slash hey employees really upset to slash hey employees really upset to slash hey employees really upset to ignore or miss out on ignore or miss out on ignore or miss out on in order to launch the service so i in order to launch the service so i in order to launch the service so i think what he's asking is what did you think what he's asking is what did you think what he's asking is what did you leave out of hay leave out of hay leave out of hay that maybe team members really wanted to that maybe team members really wanted to that maybe team members really wanted to be in there but you you just be in there but you you just be in there but you you just many things here's the thing about a 1.0 many things here's the thing about a 1.0 many things here's the thing about a 1.0 version 1.0 of anything is not version 1.0 of anything is not version 1.0 of anything is not all your ideas it's not the best version all your ideas it's not the best version all your ideas it's not the best version it's not everything you've ever wanted it's not everything you've ever wanted it's not everything you've ever wanted to do to do to do it's simply what made the cut and there it's simply what made the cut and there it's simply what made the cut and there are so many things that didn't make the are so many things that didn't make the are so many things that didn't make the cut cut cut that will add in subsequent releases that will add in subsequent releases that will add in subsequent releases we've already added some we'll be adding we've already added some we'll be adding we've already added some we'll be adding more and more down the road we're more and more down the road we're more and more down the road we're currently working on hey for work which currently working on hey for work which currently working on hey for work which will allow companies to use hay will allow companies to use hay will allow companies to use hay and all the employees to use hey and all the employees to use hey and all the employees to use hey together um and host your your company's together um and host your your company's together um and host your your company's email on that so we're working on that email on that so we're working on that email on that so we're working on that right now right now right now um there are so many things um one of um there are so many things um one of um there are so many things um one of the features that didn't make it the features that didn't make it the features that didn't make it that i really liked was simply a feature that i really liked was simply a feature that i really liked was simply a feature called waiting on called waiting on called waiting on sometimes you send an email to somebody sometimes you send an email to somebody sometimes you send an email to somebody and you're waiting on a reply from them and you're waiting on a reply from them and you're waiting on a reply from them and so we had this feature we built the and so we had this feature we built the and so we had this feature we built the feature early on where you'd you'd mark feature early on where you'd you'd mark feature early on where you'd you'd mark something waiting on and it would put it something waiting on and it would put it something waiting on and it would put it into a separate pile so you can keep into a separate pile so you can keep into a separate pile so you can keep track of the things that you really know track of the things that you really know track of the things that you really know you need to hear back from someone about you need to hear back from someone about you need to hear back from someone about so you can see you can go to that list so you can see you can go to that list so you can see you can go to that list later and go oh yeah these are the six later and go oh yeah these are the six later and go oh yeah these are the six things that i really need to get things that i really need to get things that i really need to get answers back from and then the system answers back from and then the system answers back from and then the system could potentially send could potentially send could potentially send out a nag or something to the other out a nag or something to the other out a nag or something to the other person saying hey jason really needs to person saying hey jason really needs to person saying hey jason really needs to hear about this or whatever hear about this or whatever hear about this or whatever as we started using it we didn't build

as we started using it we didn't build as we started using it we didn't build the whole feature we just built the whole feature we just built the whole feature we just built basically the way to flag something is basically the way to flag something is basically the way to flag something is waiting on and it didn't have enough waiting on and it didn't have enough waiting on and it didn't have enough bite there wasn't enough value in it bite there wasn't enough value in it bite there wasn't enough value in it without without without kind of completing the whole idea which kind of completing the whole idea which kind of completing the whole idea which is like the the additional system is like the the additional system is like the the additional system going out and helping you out by going out and helping you out by going out and helping you out by reminding the other person that you need reminding the other person that you need reminding the other person that you need something by a certain time something by a certain time something by a certain time so since we didn't build the whole thing so since we didn't build the whole thing so since we didn't build the whole thing we decided to hold it back we decided to hold it back we decided to hold it back so we didn't build sort of a half-assed so we didn't build sort of a half-assed so we didn't build sort of a half-assed piece of software so we held that back piece of software so we held that back piece of software so we held that back there's a lot of things like that that there's a lot of things like that that there's a lot of things like that that we that we held back that weren't fully we that we held back that weren't fully we that we held back that weren't fully formed formed formed but the idea is right and it's there and but the idea is right and it's there and but the idea is right and it's there and we'll get to it later when we can we'll get to it later when we can we'll get to it later when we can complete the whole thing and put the complete the whole thing and put the complete the whole thing and put the whole thing out um but there's a number whole thing out um but there's a number whole thing out um but there's a number of little things like that but waiting of little things like that but waiting of little things like that but waiting on on on is one of those like the first thing is one of those like the first thing is one of those like the first thing that comes to mind is something i still that comes to mind is something i still that comes to mind is something i still want today want today want today but we didn't really make it useful but we didn't really make it useful but we didn't really make it useful enough to put it out there and i'd enough to put it out there and i'd enough to put it out there and i'd rather kind of rather kind of rather kind of make a splash with it when it's actually make a splash with it when it's actually make a splash with it when it's actually really fully ready really fully ready really fully ready but there's literally hundreds of things but there's literally hundreds of things but there's literally hundreds of things we didn't do we didn't do we didn't do that we're going to do in 2021 that we're going to do in 2021 that we're going to do in 2021 specifically is going to be pretty specifically is going to be pretty specifically is going to be pretty exciting for hey we've got a lot of exciting for hey we've got a lot of exciting for hey we've got a lot of things planned this will be pretty fun things planned this will be pretty fun things planned this will be pretty fun awesome did i read somewhere and correct awesome did i read somewhere and correct awesome did i read somewhere and correct me if i'm wrong but me if i'm wrong but me if i'm wrong but i think it was posted in a tiny seed i think it was posted in a tiny seed i think it was posted in a tiny seed slack by just a founder who's commenting slack by just a founder who's commenting slack by just a founder who's commenting that that that did you guys release numbers either like did you guys release numbers either like did you guys release numbers either like mrr that you launched to or mrr that you launched to or mrr that you launched to or number of customers or number of users number of customers or number of users number of customers or number of users was it like a hundred thousand users a was it like a hundred thousand users a was it like a hundred thousand users a month already month already month already or something yeah so when when hay first or something yeah so when when hay first or something yeah so when when hay first launched launched launched we signed up about 200 000 people in the we signed up about 200 000 people in the we signed up about 200 000 people in the first few weeks first few weeks first few weeks so the the interest was off the charts so the the interest was off the charts so the the interest was off the charts we didn't exp we didn't exp we didn't exp we we knew we had something really good

we we knew we had something really good we we knew we had something really good here um here um here um we didn't know that it was really going we didn't know that it was really going we didn't know that it was really going to strike a nerve like it did and how to strike a nerve like it did and how to strike a nerve like it did and how it's continued to strike a nerve um so it's continued to strike a nerve um so it's continued to strike a nerve um so we're really excited about that we had we're really excited about that we had we're really excited about that we had about 200 000 in the first couple weeks about 200 000 in the first couple weeks about 200 000 in the first couple weeks a lot of this was driven by the apple a lot of this was driven by the apple a lot of this was driven by the apple news and the publicity we got there news and the publicity we got there news and the publicity we got there but a lot of it was driven by pure but a lot of it was driven by pure but a lot of it was driven by pure excitement over the product as well like excitement over the product as well like excitement over the product as well like people people people were so hungry finally to do something were so hungry finally to do something were so hungry finally to do something new with email and see email in a new new with email and see email in a new new with email and see email in a new light light light and like when they when they watch my and like when they when they watch my and like when they when they watch my demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which you can find on you can find on you can find on on youtube or if you google like jason on youtube or if you google like jason on youtube or if you google like jason freed hey demo freed hey demo freed hey demo or hey walkthrough you'll find it um or hey walkthrough you'll find it um or hey walkthrough you'll find it um when people watch that i think it got a when people watch that i think it got a when people watch that i think it got a lot of people really excited um lot of people really excited um lot of people really excited um about the product because i shared the about the product because i shared the about the product because i shared the philosophy behind the features and then philosophy behind the features and then philosophy behind the features and then walk people through the features at the walk people through the features at the walk people through the features at the same time same time same time and i think a lot of product people and i think a lot of product people and i think a lot of product people really appreciated that type of work really appreciated that type of work really appreciated that type of work walkthrough walkthrough walkthrough um and that got people fired up and um and that got people fired up and um and that got people fired up and people signed up about it and told about people signed up about it and told about people signed up about it and told about it and told everyone and we had an it and told everyone and we had an it and told everyone and we had an invite process the whole thing so invite process the whole thing so invite process the whole thing so there's a lot of that it's of course there's a lot of that it's of course there's a lot of that it's of course tapered off as as you'd expect i mean tapered off as as you'd expect i mean tapered off as as you'd expect i mean it's like boom it's like boom it's like boom launch tapered off um but you know we launch tapered off um but you know we launch tapered off um but you know we have tens of thousands of paying have tens of thousands of paying have tens of thousands of paying customers customers customers um already um conversion rate's been um already um conversion rate's been um already um conversion rate's been been pretty wonderful we're pretty happy been pretty wonderful we're pretty happy been pretty wonderful we're pretty happy with that with that with that um it's been more than basic higher than um it's been more than basic higher than um it's been more than basic higher than basecamp which has been great basecamp which has been great basecamp which has been great um and there's some things that a lot of um and there's some things that a lot of um and there's some things that a lot of people really really want like for people really really want like for people really really want like for example custom domains which has been example custom domains which has been example custom domains which has been something that a lot of people been something that a lot of people been something that a lot of people been asking for which we don't offer yet asking for which we don't offer yet asking for which we don't offer yet everyone gets an at hay.com email everyone gets an at hay.com email everyone gets an at hay.com email address address address once we launch custom domains later this once we launch custom domains later this once we launch custom domains later this year i think a lot more people are going year i think a lot more people are going year i think a lot more people are going to jump back in and check it out again to jump back in and check it out again to jump back in and check it out again for a second time so for a second time so for a second time so we're very comfortable with how things we're very comfortable with how things we're very comfortable with how things are going and it feels really great

are going and it feels really great are going and it feels really great all right awesome congratulations on all right awesome congratulations on all right awesome congratulations on that that that um thank you so deep asks he says i love um thank you so deep asks he says i love um thank you so deep asks he says i love your contrarian way of thinking your contrarian way of thinking your contrarian way of thinking how do you suggest a new founder who how do you suggest a new founder who how do you suggest a new founder who wants to build a wants to build a wants to build a company with solid values and a solid company with solid values and a solid company with solid values and a solid culture that sticks culture that sticks culture that sticks i think he's asking just that like base i think he's asking just that like base i think he's asking just that like base camp has such strong culture and values camp has such strong culture and values camp has such strong culture and values and you've obviously been deliberate and you've obviously been deliberate and you've obviously been deliberate about that like about that like about that like how can how can another founder do that how can how can another founder do that how can how can another founder do that in their company in their company in their company first off um it's a mindset right so you first off um it's a mindset right so you first off um it's a mindset right so you have to believe that that have to believe that that have to believe that that that's what you want so don't follow us that's what you want so don't follow us that's what you want so don't follow us you can't follow us or follow anyone you can't follow us or follow anyone you can't follow us or follow anyone because that's not you're not being true because that's not you're not being true because that's not you're not being true to yourself to yourself to yourself if we if you believe what we believe if we if you believe what we believe if we if you believe what we believe then you're being true to yourself but then you're being true to yourself but then you're being true to yourself but don't don't look to us don't don't look to us don't don't look to us i want to be like them figure out what i want to be like them figure out what i want to be like them figure out what matters to you matters to you matters to you um and it's all about actions so for um and it's all about actions so for um and it's all about actions so for example like example like example like it's not about what you write down it's it's not about what you write down it's it's not about what you write down it's not about you know not about you know not about you know your handbook it's really about the way your handbook it's really about the way your handbook it's really about the way i like to think about culture is it's a i like to think about culture is it's a i like to think about culture is it's a 50-day 50-day 50-day moving average what have you been doing moving average what have you been doing moving average what have you been doing as a company over the last 50 days how as a company over the last 50 days how as a company over the last 50 days how do you treat people do you treat people do you treat people what do you do when people are stressed what do you do when people are stressed what do you do when people are stressed out how do you help people what kind of out how do you help people what kind of out how do you help people what kind of criticism or critique do you get what criticism or critique do you get what criticism or critique do you get what kind of feedback do you give how do you kind of feedback do you give how do you kind of feedback do you give how do you share share share how do you help people who are stuck how do you help people who are stuck how do you help people who are stuck like those the things like those the things like those the things that make the culture and those things that make the culture and those things that make the culture and those things can change which is good and bad but can change which is good and bad but can change which is good and bad but what what what how the last 50 days been that's kind of how the last 50 days been that's kind of how the last 50 days been that's kind of how i look at it because there's always how i look at it because there's always how i look at it because there's always these spikes or these moments these spikes or these moments these spikes or these moments for example we launched hey two weeks of for example we launched hey two weeks of for example we launched hey two weeks of incredible stress incredible stress incredible stress terrible stress i hated it it was

terrible stress i hated it it was terrible stress i hated it it was wonderful but i hated it wonderful but i hated it wonderful but i hated it but it's unsustainable and so we're past but it's unsustainable and so we're past but it's unsustainable and so we're past that now that now that now so now we're settling back into how we so now we're settling back into how we so now we're settling back into how we want to be um because we don't want to want to be um because we don't want to want to be um because we don't want to be be be working late at night working on the working late at night working on the working late at night working on the weekends and being stressed out so i weekends and being stressed out so i weekends and being stressed out so i think it's a matter of how think it's a matter of how think it's a matter of how you act it's a matter of the last 50 you act it's a matter of the last 50 you act it's a matter of the last 50 days or so of how you act days or so of how you act days or so of how you act and understanding what's important to and understanding what's important to and understanding what's important to you now real quick about this you now real quick about this you now real quick about this um a lot of people like look at our our um a lot of people like look at our our um a lot of people like look at our our benefits and they look at our handbook benefits and they look at our handbook benefits and they look at our handbook and they read that and go i want to be and they read that and go i want to be and they read that and go i want to be like that like that like that it took us 20 years to get to that i it took us 20 years to get to that i it took us 20 years to get to that i mean we didn't offer mean we didn't offer mean we didn't offer most of these i mean we've been layering most of these i mean we've been layering most of these i mean we've been layering in things that we've been learning we've in things that we've been learning we've in things that we've been learning we've been layering been layering been layering in benefits we've been layering in the in benefits we've been layering in the in benefits we've been layering in the ability to give people more vacation ability to give people more vacation ability to give people more vacation time or to give people more time or to give people more time or to give people more sabbatical time like we couldn't afford sabbatical time like we couldn't afford sabbatical time like we couldn't afford to do some of these things many many to do some of these things many many to do some of these things many many many years ago and i many years ago and i many years ago and i for people were just starting out a lot for people were just starting out a lot for people were just starting out a lot of people in your audience of people in your audience of people in your audience this is probably the beginning is this is probably the beginning is this is probably the beginning is probably not the right time to be probably not the right time to be probably not the right time to be extremely generous on time off and extremely generous on time off and extremely generous on time off and you know like wait till you have some you know like wait till you have some you know like wait till you have some some some cushion some room in the bank some some cushion some room in the bank some some cushion some room in the bank and you can layer things in as you go so and you can layer things in as you go so and you can layer things in as you go so figure out what the most important figure out what the most important figure out what the most important things are and in my opinion things are and in my opinion things are and in my opinion the most important thing to begin with the most important thing to begin with the most important thing to begin with is free which is is free which is is free which is make sure you give people more time to make sure you give people more time to make sure you give people more time to themselves during the day themselves during the day themselves during the day longer stretches of uninterrupted time longer stretches of uninterrupted time longer stretches of uninterrupted time to get their work done that is the best to get their work done that is the best to get their work done that is the best benefit benefit benefit any company can give any employee um any company can give any employee um any company can give any employee um and and let them go home at the end of and and let them go home at the end of and and let them go home at the end of the day fulfilled the day fulfilled the day fulfilled satisfied get a good night's sleep come satisfied get a good night's sleep come satisfied get a good night's sleep come back refresh the next morning back refresh the next morning back refresh the next morning that's a wonderful benefit and that that's a wonderful benefit and that that's a wonderful benefit and that doesn't cost you anything doesn't cost you anything doesn't cost you anything bravo sir all right so question from bravo sir all right so question from bravo sir all right so question from justin jackson

justin jackson justin jackson whom you know he says as hate takes over whom you know he says as hate takes over whom you know he says as hate takes over the world the world the world um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong questions you joked questions you joked questions you joked saying building hay was the dumbest saying building hay was the dumbest saying building hay was the dumbest thing we've done on a serious note do thing we've done on a serious note do thing we've done on a serious note do you regret it at all you regret it at all you regret it at all all the drama with apple the scale of all the drama with apple the scale of all the drama with apple the scale of the app etc the app etc the app etc i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled that we built hay hay's going to make that we built hay hay's going to make that we built hay hay's going to make base camp better hay's going to make hay base camp better hay's going to make hay base camp better hay's going to make hay better base camp's going to make hay better base camp's going to make hay better base camp's going to make hay better better better i like this thing where we can go back i like this thing where we can go back i like this thing where we can go back and forth now one of the things we've and forth now one of the things we've and forth now one of the things we've learned about launching something new learned about launching something new learned about launching something new is that you launch something new and is that you launch something new and is that you launch something new and that's the only time you can really that's the only time you can really that's the only time you can really explore explore explore really new ideas and those new ideas in really new ideas and those new ideas in really new ideas and those new ideas in you know of course you know of course you know of course affect the new product you're building affect the new product you're building affect the new product you're building but they also affect the other things but they also affect the other things but they also affect the other things that you have so we're that you have so we're that you have so we're we've already begun work on base camp we've already begun work on base camp we've already begun work on base camp four which is going to be out next year four which is going to be out next year four which is going to be out next year and a lot of those ideas and a lot of those ideas and a lot of those ideas came from the things we developed when came from the things we developed when came from the things we developed when we built hay so hey is going to benefit we built hay so hey is going to benefit we built hay so hey is going to benefit everything everything everything um i don't regret the the apple uh um i don't regret the the apple uh um i don't regret the the apple uh fight at all i think it was absolutely fight at all i think it was absolutely fight at all i think it was absolutely the right thing to do and we're the right thing to do and we're the right thing to do and we're continuing to do so um we're supporting continuing to do so um we're supporting continuing to do so um we're supporting a whole a whole a whole wide variety of um of of efforts and wide variety of um of of efforts and wide variety of um of of efforts and initiatives to initiatives to initiatives to to to you know bring this to to the to to you know bring this to to the to to you know bring this to to the government's you know government's you know government's you know awareness and and you know both in in awareness and and you know both in in awareness and and you know both in in the in the us and the eu the in the us and the eu the in the us and the eu um standing with other companies that um standing with other companies that um standing with other companies that are fighting and other developers that are fighting and other developers that are fighting and other developers that are fighting because this is not are fighting because this is not are fighting because this is not something you just do and walk away from something you just do and walk away from something you just do and walk away from like like like apple's going to be relentless about apple's going to be relentless about apple's going to be relentless about this and you've got to continue to stand this and you've got to continue to stand this and you've got to continue to stand up for up for up for for what you believe to be right so no i for what you believe to be right so no i for what you believe to be right so no i don't regret it that said don't regret it that said don't regret it that said it was a horrible it was the most it was a horrible it was the most it was a horrible it was the most stressful time stressful time stressful time we've ever had in 20 years those two

we've ever had in 20 years those two we've ever had in 20 years those two weeks were terrible weeks were terrible weeks were terrible um again like exciting and um again like exciting and um again like exciting and hugely rewarding but terrible mentally hugely rewarding but terrible mentally hugely rewarding but terrible mentally physically physically physically we aged we aged we didn't feel good we aged we aged we didn't feel good we aged we aged we didn't feel good people were people were people were sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time so sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time so sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time so what i would regret is if we stayed at what i would regret is if we stayed at what i would regret is if we stayed at that pace that pace that pace past the first couple weeks of launch past the first couple weeks of launch past the first couple weeks of launch that would have been a that would have been a that would have been a that would not be worth that would not that would not be worth that would not that would not be worth that would not have been worth it but the fact that have been worth it but the fact that have been worth it but the fact that we've been able to we've been able to we've been able to to kind of settle back into our normal to kind of settle back into our normal to kind of settle back into our normal cadence we hired like five customer cadence we hired like five customer cadence we hired like five customer service people service people service people um really quickly that really helped a um really quickly that really helped a um really quickly that really helped a lot to bring the we're getting about 2 lot to bring the we're getting about 2 lot to bring the we're getting about 2 000 emails a day 000 emails a day 000 emails a day um when we launched hey so like it we um when we launched hey so like it we um when we launched hey so like it we just weren't ready for any of those just weren't ready for any of those just weren't ready for any of those things so things so things so that was a mess but we we remedied that that was a mess but we we remedied that that was a mess but we we remedied that and now we're comfortable again but if and now we're comfortable again but if and now we're comfortable again but if we were not comfortable and had to live we were not comfortable and had to live we were not comfortable and had to live at that pace i would have regretted it at that pace i would have regretted it at that pace i would have regretted it yes yes yes yep all right this is an interesting yep all right this is an interesting yep all right this is an interesting question i actually get this one now and question i actually get this one now and question i actually get this one now and again and i sometimes struggle to answer again and i sometimes struggle to answer again and i sometimes struggle to answer it so it so it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so the question is from tom biscuit and he the question is from tom biscuit and he the question is from tom biscuit and he says says says if you didn't have your brand and your if you didn't have your brand and your if you didn't have your brand and your resources how would you start a company resources how would you start a company resources how would you start a company today today today would addressing something as big as would addressing something as big as would addressing something as big as email be possible without that kind of email be possible without that kind of email be possible without that kind of leverage um it's a great question um it's a great question i would launch the company the same way i would launch the company the same way i would launch the company the same way we launched base camp when we had no we launched base camp when we had no we launched base camp when we had no branding and no awareness which is branding and no awareness which is branding and no awareness which is slowly slowly slowly carefully with no expectations carefully with no expectations carefully with no expectations um we were a web design firm when we um we were a web design firm when we um we were a web design firm when we when we started

when we started when we started we launched this base camp thing we we launched this base camp thing we we launched this base camp thing we built it for ourselves we did it on the built it for ourselves we did it on the built it for ourselves we did it on the side we put it out there side we put it out there side we put it out there and we waited a while to see if it was and we waited a while to see if it was and we waited a while to see if it was going to work it turns out it worked going to work it turns out it worked going to work it turns out it worked really well and then we were able to really well and then we were able to really well and then we were able to stop doing the other thing that we were stop doing the other thing that we were stop doing the other thing that we were doing doing doing um so i so so they're like i would do um so i so so they're like i would do um so i so so they're like i would do the same thing i would always try to the same thing i would always try to the same thing i would always try to have have have i wouldn't i don't like putting myself i wouldn't i don't like putting myself i wouldn't i don't like putting myself at risk i like taking a risk but i don't at risk i like taking a risk but i don't at risk i like taking a risk but i don't like putting myself at risk like putting myself at risk like putting myself at risk so um in the case of when we launched so um in the case of when we launched so um in the case of when we launched base camp no one really knew who we were base camp no one really knew who we were base camp no one really knew who we were we had a little bit of a following but we had a little bit of a following but we had a little bit of a following but like like like you know a thousand people reading our you know a thousand people reading our you know a thousand people reading our blog it was not very blog it was not very blog it was not very big compared to today a lot of people big compared to today a lot of people big compared to today a lot of people have a lot larger followings today when have a lot larger followings today when have a lot larger followings today when they launched than we did when we they launched than we did when we they launched than we did when we launched launched launched um it's much harder to reach people back um it's much harder to reach people back um it's much harder to reach people back than everything but we had than everything but we had than everything but we had we had a functional business of some we had a functional business of some we had a functional business of some sort that was going that could fund sort that was going that could fund sort that was going that could fund our endeavors into something else and our endeavors into something else and our endeavors into something else and only when that something else did better only when that something else did better only when that something else did better than the other thing that we than the other thing that we than the other thing that we stopped doing the other thing and start stopped doing the other thing and start stopped doing the other thing and start focusing 100 on base camp focusing 100 on base camp focusing 100 on base camp so i would do it the same way and keep so i would do it the same way and keep so i would do it the same way and keep your cost again your cost again your cost again cost low small team no rent cost low small team no rent cost low small team no rent one or two or three people to start one or two or three people to start one or two or three people to start struggle through that struggle through that struggle through that um before you you make it hard on um before you you make it hard on um before you you make it hard on yourself by it yourself by it yourself by it seems like you'd make it easier on seems like you'd make it easier on seems like you'd make it easier on yourself by raising money or hiring more yourself by raising money or hiring more yourself by raising money or hiring more people but you're actually in some ways people but you're actually in some ways people but you're actually in some ways making a lot harder on yourself so i'd making a lot harder on yourself so i'd making a lot harder on yourself so i'd start as start as start as small as you can and and um and small as you can and and um and small as you can and and um and and keep that you know maybe a little and keep that you know maybe a little and keep that you know maybe a little bit of money here and there right but bit of money here and there right but bit of money here and there right but not a big amount of money which forces not a big amount of money which forces not a big amount of money which forces all sorts of unreasonable expectations all sorts of unreasonable expectations all sorts of unreasonable expectations on you on you on you as far as tackling email um no we as far as tackling email um no we as far as tackling email um no we couldn't we could not have other people couldn't we could not have other people couldn't we could not have other people might be able to might be able to might be able to we could not have tackled email in the we could not have tackled email in the we could not have tackled email in the way that we chose to do it way that we chose to do it way that we chose to do it um had we not had um

um had we not had um um had we not had um probably a big brand behind us to launch probably a big brand behind us to launch probably a big brand behind us to launch um it was it took us two years to build um it was it took us two years to build um it was it took us two years to build hay and the expertise that we needed we hay and the expertise that we needed we hay and the expertise that we needed we didn't we would not have had had we just didn't we would not have had had we just didn't we would not have had had we just started today started today started today it took us 20 years to understand how to it took us 20 years to understand how to it took us 20 years to understand how to do this how to deal with do this how to deal with do this how to deal with the loads we were gonna we were gonna the loads we were gonna we were gonna the loads we were gonna we were gonna have how to deal with the technology have how to deal with the technology have how to deal with the technology that we needed to build that we needed to build that we needed to build um all the infrastructure email is um all the infrastructure email is um all the infrastructure email is incredibly complicated it would not be incredibly complicated it would not be incredibly complicated it would not be the first thing i would ever choose to the first thing i would ever choose to the first thing i would ever choose to pick off pick off pick off um so we could not have done it but that um so we could not have done it but that um so we could not have done it but that wasn't about the brand wasn't about the brand wasn't about the brand necessarily although it helped to launch necessarily although it helped to launch necessarily although it helped to launch but it was more about the understanding but it was more about the understanding but it was more about the understanding and the learning and the just the skills and the learning and the just the skills and the learning and the just the skills and experience that we needed to build and experience that we needed to build and experience that we needed to build over the last 20 years to be able to over the last 20 years to be able to over the last 20 years to be able to feel confident enough to even take this feel confident enough to even take this feel confident enough to even take this challenge on challenge on challenge on yep excellent so i think we have time yep excellent so i think we have time yep excellent so i think we have time for one or maybe two more for one or maybe two more for one or maybe two more questions uh and we have several pouring questions uh and we have several pouring questions uh and we have several pouring in so some really good in so some really good in so some really good i'm picking the best off the top this is i'm picking the best off the top this is i'm picking the best off the top this is a really interesting one and it's a really interesting one and it's a really interesting one and it's actually one actually one actually one that i've thought about and i was going that i've thought about and i was going that i've thought about and i was going to ask you on my own so so i like it to ask you on my own so so i like it to ask you on my own so so i like it it's from it's from it's from tim van dyk castile and he says tim van dyk castile and he says tim van dyk castile and he says you meaning base camp decided for a you meaning base camp decided for a you meaning base camp decided for a while to only have one while to only have one while to only have one product because you you know used to product because you you know used to product because you you know used to have several products as you said uh have several products as you said uh have several products as you said uh yeah i won't name them but whatever it yeah i won't name them but whatever it yeah i won't name them but whatever it was campfire and we all had our list and was campfire and we all had our list and was campfire and we all had our list and all this stuff all this stuff all this stuff you actually said it for a while to only you actually said it for a while to only you actually said it for a while to only have one product stopping actively have one product stopping actively have one product stopping actively developing the other products and developing the other products and developing the other products and selling them off selling them off selling them off what made you to decide that you still what made you to decide that you still what made you to decide that you still wanted or you want to go back to being a wanted or you want to go back to being a wanted or you want to go back to being a multi-product company multi-product company multi-product company so this is sort of an interesting one so this is sort of an interesting one so this is sort of an interesting one and i'll try to make it fairly brief and i'll try to make it fairly brief and i'll try to make it fairly brief because i know we don't have a lot of because i know we don't have a lot of because i know we don't have a lot of time time time we didn't set out to build another we didn't set out to build another we didn't set out to build another product actually when we built hay we product actually when we built hay we product actually when we built hay we set out to build a new version of set out to build a new version of set out to build a new version of high-rise

high-rise high-rise so we set out to build rise two like we so we set out to build rise two like we so we set out to build rise two like we built base camp built base camp built base camp two and now we're in base camp three and two and now we're in base camp three and two and now we're in base camp three and we're building basically four but we're we're building basically four but we're we're building basically four but we're gonna go back gonna go back gonna go back and build high-rise two as we were and build high-rise two as we were and build high-rise two as we were building high-rise building high-rise building high-rise two we recognized that um there was two we recognized that um there was two we recognized that um there was something else going on here that we something else going on here that we something else going on here that we were building were building were building that we wanted this thing that we were that we wanted this thing that we were that we wanted this thing that we were making for all of our communication not making for all of our communication not making for all of our communication not just business communication but personal just business communication but personal just business communication but personal family all these things family all these things family all these things and so eventually it split it off into and so eventually it split it off into and so eventually it split it off into its own thing but i think its own thing but i think its own thing but i think we've what we learned about what's good we've what we learned about what's good we've what we learned about what's good about having about having about having two things versus one thing is again two things versus one thing is again two things versus one thing is again that you get to start that you get to start that you get to start from scratch again more frequently from scratch again more frequently from scratch again more frequently um so we're building you know we just um so we're building you know we just um so we're building you know we just built hey now we're doing hey for work built hey now we're doing hey for work built hey now we're doing hey for work next year we're gonna do base camp four next year we're gonna do base camp four next year we're gonna do base camp four we're gonna learn some stuff we're gonna we're gonna learn some stuff we're gonna we're gonna learn some stuff we're gonna pull some stuff from hay into base pull some stuff from hay into base pull some stuff from hay into base for when we build base camp four we'll for when we build base camp four we'll for when we build base camp four we'll learn some new things that we'll bring learn some new things that we'll bring learn some new things that we'll bring into hay so into hay so into hay so i think this idea what we're calling it i think this idea what we're calling it i think this idea what we're calling it is like tick-tock development back and is like tick-tock development back and is like tick-tock development back and forth back and forth between two forth back and forth between two forth back and forth between two products is actually a really products is actually a really products is actually a really fresh and healthy thing to do i think fresh and healthy thing to do i think fresh and healthy thing to do i think though though though it wouldn't work for us if we had three it wouldn't work for us if we had three it wouldn't work for us if we had three or four or five or four or five or four or five so i think two is so i think two is so i think two is what we feel right now is probably going what we feel right now is probably going what we feel right now is probably going to be our sweet spot to be our sweet spot to be our sweet spot it's going to be different for every it's going to be different for every it's going to be different for every company if you have hundreds of company if you have hundreds of company if you have hundreds of employees you can do more things we have employees you can do more things we have employees you can do more things we have 56 57 58 employees 56 57 58 employees 56 57 58 employees in our skies at our scale we feel like in our skies at our scale we feel like in our skies at our scale we feel like two is right two is right two is right and here's one other reason why we think and here's one other reason why we think and here's one other reason why we think two is right two is right two is right basecamp's product cycle so we do basecamp's product cycle so we do basecamp's product cycle so we do basically do a new version of base camp basically do a new version of base camp basically do a new version of base camp every four to five years every four to five years every four to five years whole new version from scratch whole new version from scratch whole new version from scratch essentially and essentially and essentially and the when we launched that new version

the when we launched that new version the when we launched that new version we're all in on it we're all in on it we're all in on it but then over the next number of years but then over the next number of years but then over the next number of years we're basically just making marginal we're basically just making marginal we're basically just making marginal improvements around the edges that's improvements around the edges that's improvements around the edges that's like technically what happens to mature like technically what happens to mature like technically what happens to mature products you're not products you're not products you're not like reinventing the product every year like reinventing the product every year like reinventing the product every year like you just kind of like you just kind of like you just kind of can't reinvent it every year so what can't reinvent it every year so what can't reinvent it every year so what ends up happening is you built up this ends up happening is you built up this ends up happening is you built up this all these skills and all these people all these skills and all these people all these skills and all these people who are really wonderful at making who are really wonderful at making who are really wonderful at making products products products and we're putting all those skills and and we're putting all those skills and and we're putting all those skills and just making marginal improvements around just making marginal improvements around just making marginal improvements around the edges and the edges and the edges and it's not a really efficient way to run a it's not a really efficient way to run a it's not a really efficient way to run a company actually with all that company actually with all that company actually with all that talent just tweaking which is what ends talent just tweaking which is what ends talent just tweaking which is what ends up happening with mature products up happening with mature products up happening with mature products so by jumping into a new thing we get to so by jumping into a new thing we get to so by jumping into a new thing we get to use all that energy and all that talent use all that energy and all that talent use all that energy and all that talent on something brand new from scratch on something brand new from scratch on something brand new from scratch work on that for a while and then jump work on that for a while and then jump work on that for a while and then jump back on the other thing and make a whole back on the other thing and make a whole back on the other thing and make a whole new version of that so we're going to be new version of that so we're going to be new version of that so we're going to be making new versions of things more making new versions of things more making new versions of things more frequently frequently frequently in a staggered way i think which is in a staggered way i think which is in a staggered way i think which is going to just be a healthier perspective going to just be a healthier perspective going to just be a healthier perspective for us so that's that's for us so that's that's for us so that's that's i mean in a nutshell that's why we i mean in a nutshell that's why we i mean in a nutshell that's why we decided to do it it kind of decided to do it it kind of decided to do it it kind of was an accident then we kind of leaned was an accident then we kind of leaned was an accident then we kind of leaned into it and now we think it's into it and now we think it's into it and now we think it's kind of probably going to be the right kind of probably going to be the right kind of probably going to be the right thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it yes sir if you're over time but do you yes sir if you're over time but do you yes sir if you're over time but do you have quest time for one more question of have quest time for one more question of have quest time for one more question of course yeah cause i've gone long on course yeah cause i've gone long on course yeah cause i've gone long on these answers these answers these answers no no this is great this is perfect um no no this is great this is perfect um no no this is great this is perfect um there's a i like this question uh so there's a i like this question uh so there's a i like this question uh so it's from johnny tong and he says it's from johnny tong and he says it's from johnny tong and he says how does base camp manage employee how does base camp manage employee how does base camp manage employee career progression when it favors a low career progression when it favors a low career progression when it favors a low head count head count head count flat structure because you know a lot of flat structure because you know a lot of flat structure because you know a lot of people want to progress and move up the people want to progress and move up the people want to progress and move up the chain and in a larger org right that's chain and in a larger org right that's chain and in a larger org right that's easier to do so i'd love to hear your easier to do so i'd love to hear your easier to do so i'd love to hear your take on that take on that take on that yeah it's a really wonderful question um yeah it's a really wonderful question um yeah it's a really wonderful question um and we've struggled with this over the and we've struggled with this over the and we've struggled with this over the years years years um what we basically do is we don't

um what we basically do is we don't um what we basically do is we don't really have a managerial track really have a managerial track really have a managerial track so people in most companies people move so people in most companies people move so people in most companies people move up right up right up right at base camp you you move sideways by at base camp you you move sideways by at base camp you you move sideways by expanding your your ability so for expanding your your ability so for expanding your your ability so for example example example a lot of our designers get better by a lot of our designers get better by a lot of our designers get better by learning programming as well learning programming as well learning programming as well so they're not just designers but they so they're not just designers but they so they're not just designers but they they do all their css themselves they do they do all their css themselves they do they do all their css themselves they do all the visual design they do a lot of all the visual design they do a lot of all the visual design they do a lot of rails now they do a lot of javascript rails now they do a lot of javascript rails now they do a lot of javascript now now now so so they sort of expand outward and so so they sort of expand outward and so so they sort of expand outward and that's typically how most people that's typically how most people that's typically how most people progress progress progress and then they move up in the and then they move up in the and then they move up in the organization on our pay scale because organization on our pay scale because organization on our pay scale because they have more skills and they take more they have more skills and they take more they have more skills and they take more responsibility responsibility responsibility we do have team leads so there are some we do have team leads so there are some we do have team leads so there are some team leads but they're pretty well team leads but they're pretty well team leads but they're pretty well established people who've been here for established people who've been here for established people who've been here for a long time so it's not a very it's not a long time so it's not a very it's not a long time so it's not a very it's not like a like a like a high churn position so those positions high churn position so those positions high churn position so those positions pretty much sit there pretty much sit there pretty much sit there um but but people sort of expand their um but but people sort of expand their um but but people sort of expand their skill set and then move up in our pay skill set and then move up in our pay skill set and then move up in our pay tier tier tier so that's something that's that's kind so that's something that's that's kind so that's something that's that's kind of unusual actually at companies because of unusual actually at companies because of unusual actually at companies because most people actually most people actually most people actually they get narrower narrower in a sense they get narrower narrower in a sense they get narrower narrower in a sense they move into a managerial track where they move into a managerial track where they move into a managerial track where they actually they actually they actually lose a lot of the skills that they had lose a lot of the skills that they had lose a lot of the skills that they had and they atrophy like me i've atrophied and they atrophy like me i've atrophied and they atrophy like me i've atrophied like i i'm like i i'm like i i'm i'm not as good anymore getting in the i'm not as good anymore getting in the i'm not as good anymore getting in the html and css like i used to like i i'm html and css like i used to like i i'm html and css like i used to like i i'm not just not just not just not that good at that anymore because not that good at that anymore because not that good at that anymore because i've been focusing on other things and i've been focusing on other things and i've been focusing on other things and this happens to a lot of people as they this happens to a lot of people as they this happens to a lot of people as they move up through management but at base move up through management but at base move up through management but at base camp we want people to get better at camp we want people to get better at camp we want people to get better at their craft their craft their craft and so you know if you could think of a and so you know if you could think of a and so you know if you could think of a someone who's good with woodworking someone who's good with woodworking someone who's good with woodworking loves woodworking they might also expand loves woodworking they might also expand loves woodworking they might also expand into other materials they might explore into other materials they might explore into other materials they might explore you know metal they might explore

you know metal they might explore you know metal they might explore ceramics they might explore other things ceramics they might explore other things ceramics they might explore other things they're still using the same skills but they're still using the same skills but they're still using the same skills but in in in different mediums and i think that's the different mediums and i think that's the different mediums and i think that's the idea here at base camp is that you might idea here at base camp is that you might idea here at base camp is that you might be a great designer but you might want be a great designer but you might want be a great designer but you might want to pick up some programming or you might to pick up some programming or you might to pick up some programming or you might want to be a better writer want to be a better writer want to be a better writer and that's how people expand and that's and that's how people expand and that's and that's how people expand and that's how people get paid more and move up the how people get paid more and move up the how people get paid more and move up the scale scale scale at our company and then there are some at our company and then there are some at our company and then there are some people always some people people always some people people always some people who just simply do want to run teams or who just simply do want to run teams or who just simply do want to run teams or manage people manage people manage people and if there's not a position here it's and if there's not a position here it's and if there's not a position here it's totally fair for them to say totally fair for them to say totally fair for them to say you know base camp doesn't have what you know base camp doesn't have what you know base camp doesn't have what what what what i want what what what i want what what what i want um and i'm gonna move on to go find a um and i'm gonna move on to go find a um and i'm gonna move on to go find a place that does that and we would gladly place that does that and we would gladly place that does that and we would gladly help them we'd hate to lose them but we help them we'd hate to lose them but we help them we'd hate to lose them but we understand that like it's no it's not understand that like it's no it's not understand that like it's no it's not good good good for us to keep anyone who would want to for us to keep anyone who would want to for us to keep anyone who would want to do something else so we're gonna do something else so we're gonna do something else so we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna help them find we're gonna we're gonna help them find we're gonna we're gonna help them find something somewhere else that would something somewhere else that would something somewhere else that would satisfy that we've had a number of satisfy that we've had a number of satisfy that we've had a number of people who either left to manage bigger people who either left to manage bigger people who either left to manage bigger teams teams teams or left to start their own businesses um or left to start their own businesses um or left to start their own businesses um and uh that's great and uh that's great and uh that's great we're you know happy for them and want we're you know happy for them and want we're you know happy for them and want to support them as well to support them as well to support them as well sure and i bet they're set up well to do sure and i bet they're set up well to do sure and i bet they're set up well to do it because with base camp on your resume it because with base camp on your resume it because with base camp on your resume you can get hired by you can get hired by you can get hired by most of the people that i know so yeah most of the people that i know so yeah most of the people that i know so yeah it's helpful it's helpful it's helpful such a such a gentleman thank you for such a such a gentleman thank you for such a such a gentleman thank you for taking your time to taking your time to taking your time to you know to give back to founders um you know to give back to founders um you know to give back to founders um i've been i mean this is the kind of i've been i mean this is the kind of i've been i mean this is the kind of stuff where if i say it one-on-one it stuff where if i say it one-on-one it stuff where if i say it one-on-one it sounds sounds sounds awkward but like i've been an admirer of awkward but like i've been an admirer of awkward but like i've been an admirer of yours for at least 14 years i've read yours for at least 14 years i've read yours for at least 14 years i've read all your books and all your books and all your books and and i just love i love having and i just love i love having and i just love i love having conversations with you because you're conversations with you because you're conversations with you because you're you're always just dropping knowledge you're always just dropping knowledge you're always just dropping knowledge and giving back and giving back and giving back founder so thanks so much for you know founder so thanks so much for you know founder so thanks so much for you know sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again well thanks rob this is great and i'm well thanks rob this is great and i'm well thanks rob this is great and i'm happy to by the way answer additional happy to by the way answer additional happy to by the way answer additional questions that people have them questions that people have them questions that people have them um you can email me at jason hey.com

um you can email me at jason hey.com um you can email me at jason hey.com h-e-y h-e-y h-e-y or on twitter jasonfreedfied or on twitter jasonfreedfied or on twitter jasonfreedfied and i'll try to answer there as well and i'll try to answer there as well and i'll try to answer there as well thanks again jason catch you next thank you you [Music]