Is Mailchimp the Greatest Bootstrapped SaaS Ever?

In 2001, two guys built an email tool as In 2001, two guys built an email tool as a side project. They had no login screen a side project. They had no login screen a side project. They had no login screen and customers physically mailed them and customers physically mailed them and customers physically mailed them checks. checks. checks. >> That's it. It was an accident. Wow. It >> That's it. It was an accident. Wow. It >> That's it. It was an accident. Wow. It was an accident and so and so was an accident and so and so was an accident and so and so I told you we Forrest Gumped our way I told you we Forrest Gumped our way I told you we Forrest Gumped our way into this thing. into this thing. into this thing. >> 20 years later, that accident sold for >> 20 years later, that accident sold for >> 20 years later, that accident sold for $12 billion, $12 billion, $12 billion, the largest bootstrapped exit in the largest bootstrapped exit in the largest bootstrapped exit in history. I'm Rob Walling and this is history. I'm Rob Walling and this is history. I'm Rob Walling and this is SaaS Legends. Today, I'm telling the SaaS Legends. Today, I'm telling the SaaS Legends. Today, I'm telling the story of Mailchimp and what you can story of Mailchimp and what you can story of Mailchimp and what you can learn from two founders who Forrest learn from two founders who Forrest learn from two founders who Forrest Gumped their way into building one of Gumped their way into building one of Gumped their way into building one of the most valuable software companies the most valuable software companies the most valuable software companies ever created. To understand how Mailchimp became a $12 To understand how Mailchimp became a $12 billion company, you have to understand billion company, you have to understand billion company, you have to understand the moment in time that it was born the moment in time that it was born the moment in time that it was born into. It was the year 2000. The dot com into. It was the year 2000. The dot com into. It was the year 2000. The dot com bubble has just burst. pets.com is gone. bubble has just burst. pets.com is gone. bubble has just burst. pets.com is gone. Webvan, gone. Trillions of dollars in Webvan, gone. Trillions of dollars in Webvan, gone. Trillions of dollars in market value have evaporated overnight. market value have evaporated overnight. market value have evaporated overnight. Venture capitalists have retreated to Venture capitalists have retreated to Venture capitalists have retreated to their caves. And in Atlanta, Georgia, their caves. And in Atlanta, Georgia, their caves. And in Atlanta, Georgia, two guys in their late 20s are just two guys in their late 20s are just two guys in their late 20s are just trying to keep their small web design trying to keep their small web design trying to keep their small web design business alive. Ben Chestnut and Dan business alive. Ben Chestnut and Dan business alive. Ben Chestnut and Dan Kurzius weren't trying to change the Kurzius weren't trying to change the Kurzius weren't trying to change the world, they were trying to make payroll.

world, they were trying to make payroll. world, they were trying to make payroll. >> We were laid off from a dot com just >> We were laid off from a dot com just >> We were laid off from a dot com just like everyone else and we sort of took like everyone else and we sort of took like everyone else and we sort of took our severance checks and we started our our severance checks and we started our our severance checks and we started our own company and said, you know, we're own company and said, you know, we're own company and said, you know, we're going to bootstrap it. Screw all this VC going to bootstrap it. Screw all this VC going to bootstrap it. Screw all this VC craziness. Money's going to come from craziness. Money's going to come from craziness. Money's going to come from our paying customers. our paying customers. our paying customers. >> Money is going to come from our paying >> Money is going to come from our paying >> Money is going to come from our paying customers. That's the scrappy defiant customers. That's the scrappy defiant customers. That's the scrappy defiant energy they brought to building energy they brought to building energy they brought to building Mailchimp and they kept that energy for Mailchimp and they kept that energy for Mailchimp and they kept that energy for the next 20 years. the next 20 years. the next 20 years. >> We were building websites for a lot of >> We were building websites for a lot of >> We were building websites for a lot of clients and what we noticed was clients and what we noticed was clients and what we noticed was everybody was asking us to everybody was asking us to everybody was asking us to help them with their email newsletters help them with their email newsletters help them with their email newsletters and they were asking us to log in to and they were asking us to log in to and they were asking us to log in to their email email newsletter clients their email email newsletter clients their email email newsletter clients which were all kind of bulky and bloated which were all kind of bulky and bloated which were all kind of bulky and bloated software, you know, CD-ROMs you software, you know, CD-ROMs you software, you know, CD-ROMs you installed on your server and that sort installed on your server and that sort installed on your server and that sort of stuff. And it was just miserable for of stuff. And it was just miserable for of stuff. And it was just miserable for us. We hated using I mean, it was us. We hated using I mean, it was us. We hated using I mean, it was billable hours we got paid for it, but billable hours we got paid for it, but billable hours we got paid for it, but it was just miserable interfaces and it was just miserable interfaces and it was just miserable interfaces and everything. everything. everything. >> So, they had a problem. Their clients >> So, they had a problem. Their clients >> So, they had a problem. Their clients needed help with email. The existing needed help with email. The existing needed help with email. The existing tools were awful, and they were billing tools were awful, and they were billing tools were awful, and they were billing hours to do work that they hated. Here's hours to do work that they hated. Here's hours to do work that they hated. Here's where the story takes a turn that I where the story takes a turn that I where the story takes a turn that I love, because the solution was already love, because the solution was already love, because the solution was already sitting in a folder on their hard drive.

sitting in a folder on their hard drive. sitting in a folder on their hard drive. A few years earlier, Ben and Dan had A few years earlier, Ben and Dan had A few years earlier, Ben and Dan had tried to start a different company, an tried to start a different company, an tried to start a different company, an e-greetings website, digital greeting e-greetings website, digital greeting e-greetings website, digital greeting cards. Why e-greetings? cards. Why e-greetings? cards. Why e-greetings? >> We saw a press release that said Blue >> We saw a press release that said Blue >> We saw a press release that said Blue Mountain Greetings was acquired by Mountain Greetings was acquired by Mountain Greetings was acquired by Excite for $600 million. So, we were Excite for $600 million. So, we were Excite for $600 million. So, we were like, "Well, let's do that." like, "Well, let's do that." like, "Well, let's do that." >> They did not do that. >> They did not do that. >> They did not do that. The e-greeting site flopped, but they The e-greeting site flopped, but they The e-greeting site flopped, but they kept the code. kept the code. kept the code. >> The spare parts from the e-greetings >> The spare parts from the e-greetings >> The spare parts from the e-greetings website, we found that code again, and website, we found that code again, and website, we found that code again, and we repurposed it and built our own email we repurposed it and built our own email we repurposed it and built our own email newsletter tool, just to make it easier newsletter tool, just to make it easier newsletter tool, just to make it easier for me, basically, to copy-paste content for me, basically, to copy-paste content for me, basically, to copy-paste content and hit send. and hit send. and hit send. >> The foundation of a $12 billion company >> The foundation of a $12 billion company >> The foundation of a $12 billion company came from salvaged code from a failed came from salvaged code from a failed came from salvaged code from a failed side project that nobody used. There's a side project that nobody used. There's a side project that nobody used. There's a lesson here for every founder watching. lesson here for every founder watching. lesson here for every founder watching. Your past failures aren't waste. They Your past failures aren't waste. They Your past failures aren't waste. They just might be inventory. just might be inventory. just might be inventory. So, Mailchimp had paying customers. It So, Mailchimp had paying customers. It So, Mailchimp had paying customers. It was making money. But, you need to was making money. But, you need to was making money. But, you need to understand how janky this operation was understand how janky this operation was understand how janky this operation was in the early days. in the early days. in the early days. >> It was not subscription from the start. >> It was not subscription from the start. >> It was not subscription from the start. I mean, you had to have the URL. We I mean, you had to have the URL. We I mean, you had to have the URL. We would give it to a client, they would would give it to a client, they would would give it to a client, they would just You wouldn't even log in, you'd just You wouldn't even log in, you'd just You wouldn't even log in, you'd just go and use the interface.

just go and use the interface. just go and use the interface. Scary, actually. Scary, actually. Scary, actually. >> No login screen. You just went to a URL >> No login screen. You just went to a URL >> No login screen. You just went to a URL and started using it in 2001. and started using it in 2001. and started using it in 2001. And they weren't charging subscriptions. And they weren't charging subscriptions. And they weren't charging subscriptions. Their clients would just mail them Their clients would just mail them Their clients would just mail them checks. checks. checks. >> They would send us checks, and the >> They would send us checks, and the >> They would send us checks, and the checks were like 50 bucks, 25 bucks, and checks were like 50 bucks, 25 bucks, and checks were like 50 bucks, 25 bucks, and I'd have this big pile of them, and I'd I'd have this big pile of them, and I'd I'd have this big pile of them, and I'd go to the bank, and I'd run out of go to the bank, and I'd run out of go to the bank, and I'd run out of deposit slips cuz I was going there so deposit slips cuz I was going there so deposit slips cuz I was going there so much, and I just said, "Is there any way much, and I just said, "Is there any way much, and I just said, "Is there any way that we can just charge by credit card that we can just charge by credit card that we can just charge by credit card so I wouldn't have to drive to the bank so I wouldn't have to drive to the bank so I wouldn't have to drive to the bank so much?" And we put a credit card so much?" And we put a credit card so much?" And we put a credit card interface on it so that our clients can interface on it so that our clients can interface on it so that our clients can just use it directly, and that was, I just use it directly, and that was, I just use it directly, and that was, I guess, SaaS. guess, SaaS. guess, SaaS. >> SaaS. Software as a service. The >> SaaS. Software as a service. The >> SaaS. Software as a service. The business model that would define an business model that would define an business model that would define an entire era of technology. entire era of technology. entire era of technology. Ben and Dan stumbled into it because Ben and Dan stumbled into it because Ben and Dan stumbled into it because they didn't want to drive to the bank. they didn't want to drive to the bank. they didn't want to drive to the bank. They didn't even know what to call what They didn't even know what to call what They didn't even know what to call what they were building. The term SaaS didn't they were building. The term SaaS didn't they were building. The term SaaS didn't exist yet. The closest thing was ASP, exist yet. The closest thing was ASP, exist yet. The closest thing was ASP, application service provider, which was application service provider, which was application service provider, which was confusing because Microsoft had a web confusing because Microsoft had a web confusing because Microsoft had a web development platform called ASP. For development platform called ASP. For development platform called ASP. For years, Mailchimp remained a side years, Mailchimp remained a side years, Mailchimp remained a side project. The real business was still the project. The real business was still the project. The real business was still the design agency. Ben described it as design agency. Ben described it as design agency. Ben described it as building a good, profitable, solid building a good, profitable, solid building a good, profitable, solid company. Something that paid for lunch company. Something that paid for lunch company. Something that paid for lunch while they focused on client work.

while they focused on client work. while they focused on client work. Nine years. Nine years. Nine years. The thing that would eventually sell for The thing that would eventually sell for The thing that would eventually sell for $12 billion $12 billion $12 billion was, for almost a decade, something they was, for almost a decade, something they was, for almost a decade, something they worked on in their spare time. I want worked on in their spare time. I want worked on in their spare time. I want you to sit with that. you to sit with that. you to sit with that. Then in 2007, something shifts. Ben and Then in 2007, something shifts. Ben and Then in 2007, something shifts. Ben and Dan finally decide to get serious about Dan finally decide to get serious about Dan finally decide to get serious about Mailchimp. They start looking at the Mailchimp. They start looking at the Mailchimp. They start looking at the numbers, like really looking at them. numbers, like really looking at them. numbers, like really looking at them. They realize this side project is They realize this side project is They realize this side project is becoming a real business, and it's time becoming a real business, and it's time becoming a real business, and it's time to choose. So, they wind down the design to choose. So, they wind down the design to choose. So, they wind down the design agency and go all in on Mailchimp. They agency and go all in on Mailchimp. They agency and go all in on Mailchimp. They start thinking about pricing, about start thinking about pricing, about start thinking about pricing, about growth, about how to actually build this growth, about how to actually build this growth, about how to actually build this thing into something bigger. And here's thing into something bigger. And here's thing into something bigger. And here's where cloud economics come into play. where cloud economics come into play. where cloud economics come into play. Their server costs weren't rising as Their server costs weren't rising as Their server costs weren't rising as fast as they projected. They were fast as they projected. They were fast as they projected. They were actually saving money, money they'd actually saving money, money they'd actually saving money, money they'd budgeted to spend. So, they asked budgeted to spend. So, they asked budgeted to spend. So, they asked themselves, "What if we gave that themselves, "What if we gave that themselves, "What if we gave that savings back to our customers? What if savings back to our customers? What if savings back to our customers? What if we made Mailchimp free?" They didn't we made Mailchimp free?" They didn't we made Mailchimp free?" They didn't even know there was a word for this. even know there was a word for this. even know there was a word for this. They just thought, "Let's make it free." They just thought, "Let's make it free." They just thought, "Let's make it free." But, here's the thing. The decision to But, here's the thing. The decision to But, here's the thing. The decision to actually launch freemium it was an actually launch freemium it was an actually launch freemium it was an accident. accident. accident. >> I should probably not tell you all this, >> I should probably not tell you all this, >> I should probably not tell you all this, but but but really, we didn't want to do freemium.

really, we didn't want to do freemium. really, we didn't want to do freemium. We wanted to We wanted to We wanted to charge the hell out of people. We charge the hell out of people. We charge the hell out of people. We What we wanted to do was like make it What we wanted to do was like make it What we wanted to do was like make it free to sign up for the email collection free to sign up for the email collection free to sign up for the email collection part of Mailchimp. Like, you can embed a part of Mailchimp. Like, you can embed a part of Mailchimp. Like, you can embed a sign-up form on your website or your sign-up form on your website or your sign-up form on your website or your blog. But, then if you wanted to send blog. But, then if you wanted to send blog. But, then if you wanted to send emails to your customers, that's when I emails to your customers, that's when I emails to your customers, that's when I would get you. would get you. would get you. I would charge you for that. Um so, I would charge you for that. Um so, I would charge you for that. Um so, there was really no freemium intention. there was really no freemium intention. there was really no freemium intention. >> So, that was the plan. Free to collect >> So, that was the plan. Free to collect >> So, that was the plan. Free to collect emails, paid to send them. Simple, emails, paid to send them. Simple, emails, paid to send them. Simple, logical, but there was one problem. logical, but there was one problem. logical, but there was one problem. >> The new programmer that we hired was >> The new programmer that we hired was >> The new programmer that we hired was looking through all of our old looking through all of our old looking through all of our old Frankenstein code and he said there's no Frankenstein code and he said there's no Frankenstein code and he said there's no way in hell I can get this done way in hell I can get this done way in hell I can get this done by the due date that I gave which was by the due date that I gave which was by the due date that I gave which was December. You know, we had to hit the December. You know, we had to hit the December. You know, we had to hit the Christmas rush. So So he said, "Here's Christmas rush. So So he said, "Here's Christmas rush. So So he said, "Here's what I can do for you. I can I can what I can do for you. I can I can what I can do for you. I can I can instead of making two products, I'll instead of making two products, I'll instead of making two products, I'll make it one, but we can make it free for make it one, but we can make it free for make it one, but we can make it free for a certain amount of time." a certain amount of time." a certain amount of time." And I was like, "Well, we're running out And I was like, "Well, we're running out And I was like, "Well, we're running out of time. Do it." of time. Do it." of time. Do it." That's it. It was an accident. That's it. It was an accident. That's it. It was an accident. >> The freemium model, the idea that you >> The freemium model, the idea that you >> The freemium model, the idea that you give something away for free to get give something away for free to get give something away for free to get people in the door, then convert them to people in the door, then convert them to people in the door, then convert them to paying customers later, this would paying customers later, this would paying customers later, this would become one of the defining strategies of become one of the defining strategies of become one of the defining strategies of modern software. Dropbox did it. Spotify modern software. Dropbox did it. Spotify modern software. Dropbox did it. Spotify did it. Slack did it. Zoom did it.

did it. Slack did it. Zoom did it. did it. Slack did it. Zoom did it. Mailchimp did it by accident because a Mailchimp did it by accident because a Mailchimp did it by accident because a programmer couldn't hit a deadline. But programmer couldn't hit a deadline. But programmer couldn't hit a deadline. But here's the thing, Ben didn't even know here's the thing, Ben didn't even know here's the thing, Ben didn't even know what to call it. what to call it. what to call it. >> We said, "Okay, we'll call it the free >> We said, "Okay, we'll call it the free >> We said, "Okay, we'll call it the free plan or something." That was our plan or something." That was our plan or something." That was our creative name for it, and I wrote a blog creative name for it, and I wrote a blog creative name for it, and I wrote a blog post, and I saved the draft, and the post, and I saved the draft, and the post, and I saved the draft, and the weekend passed, and on Monday morning I weekend passed, and on Monday morning I weekend passed, and on Monday morning I came in and somebody put a book on my came in and somebody put a book on my came in and somebody put a book on my desk, and it was a book by Chris desk, and it was a book by Chris desk, and it was a book by Chris Anderson from Wired magazine. It was Anderson from Wired magazine. It was Anderson from Wired magazine. It was called freemium. called freemium. called freemium. And I didn't read it. I still haven't And I didn't read it. I still haven't And I didn't read it. I still haven't read it, but I read the back cover, read it, but I read the back cover, read it, but I read the back cover, and the summary described it, and I was and the summary described it, and I was and the summary described it, and I was like, "That's what we're doing." So I I like, "That's what we're doing." So I I like, "That's what we're doing." So I I just said, "Mailchimp's introducing just said, "Mailchimp's introducing just said, "Mailchimp's introducing Mailchimp's premium plan." Mailchimp's premium plan." Mailchimp's premium plan." >> He named one of the most important >> He named one of the most important >> He named one of the most important pricing decisions in software history pricing decisions in software history pricing decisions in software history based on reading the back cover of a based on reading the back cover of a based on reading the back cover of a book he's never finished. book he's never finished. book he's never finished. September 1st, 2009, they launched what September 1st, 2009, they launched what September 1st, 2009, they launched what Ben called their power to the people Ben called their power to the people Ben called their power to the people campaign. You could send up to 3,000 campaign. You could send up to 3,000 campaign. You could send up to 3,000 emails a month for free. emails a month for free. emails a month for free. And then he got invited to speak about And then he got invited to speak about And then he got invited to speak about it. it. it. >> And I went to this thing called the >> And I went to this thing called the >> And I went to this thing called the freemium summit, and you know, I sat freemium summit, and you know, I sat freemium summit, and you know, I sat down next to this guy named Drew down next to this guy named Drew down next to this guy named Drew Houston, some little startup called Houston, some little startup called Houston, some little startup called Dropbox, and dude named Mikkel from Dropbox, and dude named Mikkel from Dropbox, and dude named Mikkel from Zendesk was there, and Zendesk was there, and Zendesk was there, and what's the elephant Evernote? Yes. So what's the elephant Evernote? Yes. So what's the elephant Evernote? Yes. So yeah, there were all these guys talking yeah, there were all these guys talking yeah, there were all these guys talking about freemium.

about freemium. about freemium. And I I had to make up some stuff that I And I I had to make up some stuff that I And I I had to make up some stuff that I had to be like I didn't read the book. had to be like I didn't read the book. had to be like I didn't read the book. >> And the results? At that same summit, >> And the results? At that same summit, >> And the results? At that same summit, just 7 months after launching freemium, just 7 months after launching freemium, just 7 months after launching freemium, Ben shared the numbers. Ben shared the numbers. Ben shared the numbers. >> The stupendous thing to me I didn't >> The stupendous thing to me I didn't >> The stupendous thing to me I didn't really realize until I made this slide really realize until I made this slide really realize until I made this slide was it took us 9 years to get to 85,000 was it took us 9 years to get to 85,000 was it took us 9 years to get to 85,000 users organically. users organically. users organically. And then 7 months to get to 290,000 And then 7 months to get to 290,000 And then 7 months to get to 290,000 users with freemium. So it's a testament users with freemium. So it's a testament users with freemium. So it's a testament to freemium I think, but also to having to freemium I think, but also to having to freemium I think, but also to having sort of an installed base of loyal users sort of an installed base of loyal users sort of an installed base of loyal users giving you a little bit of momentum. giving you a little bit of momentum. giving you a little bit of momentum. >> What was radical and ahead of its time >> What was radical and ahead of its time >> What was radical and ahead of its time in 2009 is obvious now. That's often how in 2009 is obvious now. That's often how in 2009 is obvious now. That's often how it works with genuine innovation. It it works with genuine innovation. It it works with genuine innovation. It looks inevitable in retrospect. But in looks inevitable in retrospect. But in looks inevitable in retrospect. But in 2009, giving away your core product for 2009, giving away your core product for 2009, giving away your core product for free felt insane. And Ben and Dan did it free felt insane. And Ben and Dan did it free felt insane. And Ben and Dan did it because they ran out of time to do because they ran out of time to do because they ran out of time to do anything else. anything else. anything else. By the mid-2010s, Mailchimp had become By the mid-2010s, Mailchimp had become By the mid-2010s, Mailchimp had become one of the most successful software one of the most successful software one of the most successful software companies in the world. Hundreds of companies in the world. Hundreds of companies in the world. Hundreds of millions in revenue, millions of users, millions in revenue, millions of users, millions in revenue, millions of users, and still no outside investors. How did and still no outside investors. How did and still no outside investors. How did they scale without the resources that they scale without the resources that they scale without the resources that venture-backed competitors had?

venture-backed competitors had? venture-backed competitors had? Relentless focus. While their Relentless focus. While their Relentless focus. While their competitors were chasing enterprise competitors were chasing enterprise competitors were chasing enterprise deals, big contracts, long sales cycles, deals, big contracts, long sales cycles, deals, big contracts, long sales cycles, customer success teams, Mailchimp stayed customer success teams, Mailchimp stayed customer success teams, Mailchimp stayed focused on small customers. And Ben had focused on small customers. And Ben had focused on small customers. And Ben had a framework for explaining this to every a framework for explaining this to every a framework for explaining this to every new employee. new employee. new employee. >> Yeah, I used to tell all new employees I >> Yeah, I used to tell all new employees I >> Yeah, I used to tell all new employees I used to draw this this diagram on a used to draw this this diagram on a used to draw this this diagram on a sticky note. It was two mountains. In in sticky note. It was two mountains. In in sticky note. It was two mountains. In in in our business you have small business in our business you have small business in our business you have small business mountain or enterprise mountain. If you mountain or enterprise mountain. If you mountain or enterprise mountain. If you want to be king of the mountain, pick want to be king of the mountain, pick want to be king of the mountain, pick one of those two. And in the middle I one of those two. And in the middle I one of those two. And in the middle I drew Death Valley. I said that was drew Death Valley. I said that was drew Death Valley. I said that was mid-market. Mid-market is Death Valley. mid-market. Mid-market is Death Valley. mid-market. Mid-market is Death Valley. You have basically clients who have the You have basically clients who have the You have basically clients who have the ambitions of a large business and the ambitions of a large business and the ambitions of a large business and the budget of a small business. budget of a small business. budget of a small business. >> Death Valley. I've seen so many >> Death Valley. I've seen so many >> Death Valley. I've seen so many companies wander into that trap. They companies wander into that trap. They companies wander into that trap. They start serving small businesses, things start serving small businesses, things start serving small businesses, things are going well, and they think if we are going well, and they think if we are going well, and they think if we just moved up market a bit, we could just moved up market a bit, we could just moved up market a bit, we could charge more. So, they hire sales people, charge more. So, they hire sales people, charge more. So, they hire sales people, they add customer success managers, they they add customer success managers, they they add customer success managers, they build enterprise features, and suddenly build enterprise features, and suddenly build enterprise features, and suddenly they're stuck in the middle and often they're stuck in the middle and often they're stuck in the middle and often not charging enough for the effort that not charging enough for the effort that not charging enough for the effort that it takes to sell to larger customers. it takes to sell to larger customers. it takes to sell to larger customers. Ben saw that trap early and refused to Ben saw that trap early and refused to Ben saw that trap early and refused to walk into it. And I want to make a note walk into it. And I want to make a note walk into it. And I want to make a note that these days going up market is often that these days going up market is often that these days going up market is often the right choice. But back in 2009 to the right choice. But back in 2009 to the right choice. But back in 2009 to 2014 or 15, there were still a 2014 or 15, there were still a 2014 or 15, there were still a significant number of SMBs that were significant number of SMBs that were significant number of SMBs that were looking for email marketing, and looking for email marketing, and looking for email marketing, and Mailchimp was an early product that Mailchimp was an early product that Mailchimp was an early product that people flocked to. It was a huge people flocked to. It was a huge people flocked to. It was a huge horizontal market, and they were able to horizontal market, and they were able to horizontal market, and they were able to take advantage of that at that point in take advantage of that at that point in take advantage of that at that point in time.

time. time. >> So, we focused really on just the >> So, we focused really on just the >> So, we focused really on just the bare-bones smallest of the small bare-bones smallest of the small bare-bones smallest of the small customers, and you will just lose your customers, and you will just lose your customers, and you will just lose your shirt if you have success customer shirt if you have success customer shirt if you have success customer success managers trying to help them, success managers trying to help them, success managers trying to help them, give them any kind of, you know, give them any kind of, you know, give them any kind of, you know, [clears throat] service. So, it was all [clears throat] service. So, it was all [clears throat] service. So, it was all about self-serve for us when we were about self-serve for us when we were about self-serve for us when we were serving those small businesses. serving those small businesses. serving those small businesses. >> Self-serve, no hand-holding, build the >> Self-serve, no hand-holding, build the >> Self-serve, no hand-holding, build the product so well that people can figure product so well that people can figure product so well that people can figure it out on their own. And here's the it out on their own. And here's the it out on their own. And here's the thing about serving really small thing about serving really small thing about serving really small businesses. Your sales cycles look businesses. Your sales cycles look businesses. Your sales cycles look completely different. completely different. completely different. >> And these are people who would sign up >> And these are people who would sign up >> And these are people who would sign up for an account, a free account, run it for an account, a free account, run it for an account, a free account, run it for like 10 months, shut their business for like 10 months, shut their business for like 10 months, shut their business down, go get a job, 2 years later figure down, go get a job, 2 years later figure down, go get a job, 2 years later figure out, oh, that's how you run a business, out, oh, that's how you run a business, out, oh, that's how you run a business, start up a new business, revitalize that start up a new business, revitalize that start up a new business, revitalize that old Mailchimp account, and then pay us old Mailchimp account, and then pay us old Mailchimp account, and then pay us money. Like, that's like a, you know, money. Like, that's like a, you know, money. Like, that's like a, you know, 3-4 year sales pipeline. You don't make 3-4 year sales pipeline. You don't make 3-4 year sales pipeline. You don't make money with customer success for that money with customer success for that money with customer success for that kind of clientele. kind of clientele. kind of clientele. >> A 3-4 year sales pipeline. Most >> A 3-4 year sales pipeline. Most >> A 3-4 year sales pipeline. Most investors would lose their minds hearing investors would lose their minds hearing investors would lose their minds hearing that. But Ben and Dan didn't have that. But Ben and Dan didn't have that. But Ben and Dan didn't have investors to answer to. They could take investors to answer to. They could take investors to answer to. They could take the long view. They could wait for that the long view. They could wait for that the long view. They could wait for that first-time entrepreneur to fail, get a first-time entrepreneur to fail, get a first-time entrepreneur to fail, get a job, learn some lessons, and come back.

job, learn some lessons, and come back. job, learn some lessons, and come back. That patience is a competitive advantage That patience is a competitive advantage That patience is a competitive advantage that's almost impossible to replicate if that's almost impossible to replicate if that's almost impossible to replicate if you've raised venture capital. you've raised venture capital. you've raised venture capital. Now, this is the part of the story where Now, this is the part of the story where Now, this is the part of the story where in most Silicon Valley narratives, the in most Silicon Valley narratives, the in most Silicon Valley narratives, the venture capitalists show up. The venture capitalists show up. The venture capitalists show up. The company's growing fast, it's profitable, company's growing fast, it's profitable, company's growing fast, it's profitable, it's the perfect time to raise $100 it's the perfect time to raise $100 it's the perfect time to raise $100 million, million, million, hire aggressively, and shoot for an IPO. hire aggressively, and shoot for an IPO. hire aggressively, and shoot for an IPO. That's the playbook. And especially back That's the playbook. And especially back That's the playbook. And especially back in the 2010s, that's what you were in the 2010s, that's what you were in the 2010s, that's what you were supposed to do. Ben and Dan didn't do supposed to do. Ben and Dan didn't do supposed to do. Ben and Dan didn't do that. For two decades, from 2001 to that. For two decades, from 2001 to that. For two decades, from 2001 to 2021, they never took a dollar of 2021, they never took a dollar of 2021, they never took a dollar of outside investment. And it wasn't outside investment. And it wasn't outside investment. And it wasn't because nobody asked. because nobody asked. because nobody asked. >> When we started it was during the >> When we started it was during the >> When we started it was during the dot-com bust, nobody was getting money. dot-com bust, nobody was getting money. dot-com bust, nobody was getting money. I mean, all the VCs had gone bust. Uh I mean, all the VCs had gone bust. Uh I mean, all the VCs had gone bust. Uh and so, many years passed before the and so, many years passed before the and so, many years passed before the economy again and VCs started knocking. economy again and VCs started knocking. economy again and VCs started knocking. But by then it was too late. I mean, But by then it was too late. I mean, But by then it was too late. I mean, Mailchimp was already making tens of Mailchimp was already making tens of Mailchimp was already making tens of millions of dollars. We were on the millions of dollars. We were on the millions of dollars. We were on the verge of making hundreds of millions. verge of making hundreds of millions. verge of making hundreds of millions. And I could just see just over the And I could just see just over the And I could just see just over the horizon hitting a billion. And so, you horizon hitting a billion. And so, you horizon hitting a billion. And so, you know, when they came knocking, it was know, when they came knocking, it was know, when they came knocking, it was nice. It was good for my ego, but it was nice. It was good for my ego, but it was nice. It was good for my ego, but it was I was like I I couldn't figure out what I was like I I couldn't figure out what I was like I I couldn't figure out what I would spend the money on.

I would spend the money on. I would spend the money on. >> The company was already profitable, >> The company was already profitable, >> The company was already profitable, already growing. What would more money already growing. What would more money already growing. What would more money actually do? But there was another actually do? But there was another actually do? But there was another reason, something deeper than the math. reason, something deeper than the math. reason, something deeper than the math. >> What I noticed every time they came >> What I noticed every time they came >> What I noticed every time they came knocking, they would really just give me knocking, they would really just give me knocking, they would really just give me someone else's playbook. They would say, someone else's playbook. They would say, someone else's playbook. They would say, "Take our money and then you can do what "Take our money and then you can do what "Take our money and then you can do what Constant Contact did." This is They Constant Contact did." This is They Constant Contact did." This is They really just wanted me to be the next really just wanted me to be the next really just wanted me to be the next IPO. And so, I I kind of as an IPO. And so, I I kind of as an IPO. And so, I I kind of as an entrepreneur, I'm sure you all can entrepreneur, I'm sure you all can entrepreneur, I'm sure you all can relate, I wanted to build my own thing relate, I wanted to build my own thing relate, I wanted to build my own thing my way. You know, this was my baby. I my way. You know, this was my baby. I my way. You know, this was my baby. I was going to do it, you know, Bruce Lee was going to do it, you know, Bruce Lee was going to do it, you know, Bruce Lee style. This is the way, my way. I didn't style. This is the way, my way. I didn't style. This is the way, my way. I didn't want to be a copycat. I didn't want to want to be a copycat. I didn't want to want to be a copycat. I didn't want to be a copycat and I didn't want to take be a copycat and I didn't want to take be a copycat and I didn't want to take orders from some nerdy MBA VC to become orders from some nerdy MBA VC to become orders from some nerdy MBA VC to become a copycat. That's like the worst hell, a copycat. That's like the worst hell, a copycat. That's like the worst hell, you know? you know? you know? >> Year after year, Ben and Dan said no to >> Year after year, Ben and Dan said no to >> Year after year, Ben and Dan said no to VCs, no to private equity, no to anyone VCs, no to private equity, no to anyone VCs, no to private equity, no to anyone who wanted to tell them how to run their who wanted to tell them how to run their who wanted to tell them how to run their company. And year after year, the offers company. And year after year, the offers company. And year after year, the offers got bigger. got bigger. got bigger. >> The older and older I got, you know, the >> The older and older I got, you know, the >> The older and older I got, you know, the more like bigger private equity firms more like bigger private equity firms more like bigger private equity firms started knocking and then I was kind of started knocking and then I was kind of started knocking and then I was kind of like, you know, give me your business like, you know, give me your business like, you know, give me your business card and I'll put it in the safe and card and I'll put it in the safe and card and I'll put it in the safe and I'll tell my wife if I die, you know, I'll tell my wife if I die, you know, I'll tell my wife if I die, you know, call these guys. I mean, so it's good to call these guys. I mean, so it's good to call these guys. I mean, so it's good to keep those connections.

>> There's a side of Mailchimp story that >> There's a side of Mailchimp story that doesn't get talked about as much. A doesn't get talked about as much. A doesn't get talked about as much. A battle that Ben fought every single day battle that Ben fought every single day battle that Ben fought every single day for 20 years. for 20 years. for 20 years. >> I I used to say death, taxes, and spam. >> I I used to say death, taxes, and spam. >> I I used to say death, taxes, and spam. Like if if there's a way to exploit your Like if if there's a way to exploit your Like if if there's a way to exploit your system, they will find it. system, they will find it. system, they will find it. >> Spam, the dark side of email marketing. >> Spam, the dark side of email marketing. >> Spam, the dark side of email marketing. From the moment Mailchimp started From the moment Mailchimp started From the moment Mailchimp started growing, spammers tried to use it to growing, spammers tried to use it to growing, spammers tried to use it to send garbage to millions of inboxes. And send garbage to millions of inboxes. And send garbage to millions of inboxes. And if they succeeded, if Mailchimp got a if they succeeded, if Mailchimp got a if they succeeded, if Mailchimp got a reputation as a platform that spammers reputation as a platform that spammers reputation as a platform that spammers used, the whole business would collapse. used, the whole business would collapse. used, the whole business would collapse. Internet service providers would block Internet service providers would block Internet service providers would block their emails, legitimate customers would their emails, legitimate customers would their emails, legitimate customers would leave. The entire company depended on leave. The entire company depended on leave. The entire company depended on staying one step ahead of the bad staying one step ahead of the bad staying one step ahead of the bad actors. And when they launched freemium, actors. And when they launched freemium, actors. And when they launched freemium, the problem exploded. At the freemium the problem exploded. At the freemium the problem exploded. At the freemium summit, Ben was blunt about what summit, Ben was blunt about what summit, Ben was blunt about what happened. Abuse-related issues more than happened. Abuse-related issues more than happened. Abuse-related issues more than tripled, their abuse desk staff had to tripled, their abuse desk staff had to tripled, their abuse desk staff had to grow 200%, grow 200%, grow 200%, legal costs jumped 245% just dealing legal costs jumped 245% just dealing legal costs jumped 245% just dealing with people gaming the system. But with people gaming the system. But with people gaming the system. But here's what Ben said that really stuck here's what Ben said that really stuck here's what Ben said that really stuck with me. with me. with me. >> This is actually inevitable. You are >> This is actually inevitable. You are >> This is actually inevitable. You are going to have a really horrible going to have a really horrible going to have a really horrible abuse-related event if you're abuse-related event if you're abuse-related event if you're successful. It's just going to happen.

successful. It's just going to happen. successful. It's just going to happen. Everyone's going to have your Google Everyone's going to have your Google Everyone's going to have your Google China. It might not be that big, China. It might not be that big, China. It might not be that big, but you're going to have something but you're going to have something but you're going to have something really embarrassing and traumatizing. It really embarrassing and traumatizing. It really embarrassing and traumatizing. It happened to us just a few months into happened to us just a few months into happened to us just a few months into our business. our business. our business. >> Everyone's going to have their Google >> Everyone's going to have their Google >> Everyone's going to have their Google China. China. China. In 2010, that was the reference point In 2010, that was the reference point In 2010, that was the reference point when Google had that massive security when Google had that massive security when Google had that massive security breach in China. His point was, if you breach in China. His point was, if you breach in China. His point was, if you build something successful, bad actors build something successful, bad actors build something successful, bad actors will come for you. It's not a matter of will come for you. It's not a matter of will come for you. It's not a matter of if, but when. So they built something to if, but when. So they built something to if, but when. So they built something to fight it. They called it project fight it. They called it project fight it. They called it project omnivore. They took every email ever omnivore. They took every email ever omnivore. They took every email ever sent from their servers, 10 years of sent from their servers, 10 years of sent from their servers, 10 years of data, and analyzed which ones had been data, and analyzed which ones had been data, and analyzed which ones had been reported for abuse, which got too many reported for abuse, which got too many reported for abuse, which got too many unsubscribes, and which had too many unsubscribes, and which had too many unsubscribes, and which had too many bounces. Then they used machine learning bounces. Then they used machine learning bounces. Then they used machine learning to find patterns to predict which users to find patterns to predict which users to find patterns to predict which users would become spammers before they sent would become spammers before they sent would become spammers before they sent the first email. This was 2009, maybe the first email. This was 2009, maybe the first email. This was 2009, maybe 2010, before machine learning was a 2010, before machine learning was a 2010, before machine learning was a buzzword, before everyone was talking buzzword, before everyone was talking buzzword, before everyone was talking about AI. Ben and Dan were using about AI. Ben and Dan were using about AI. Ben and Dan were using predictive analytics to protect their predictive analytics to protect their predictive analytics to protect their platform because they knew freemium platform because they knew freemium platform because they knew freemium would be worthless if spammers destroyed would be worthless if spammers destroyed would be worthless if spammers destroyed their reputation. But, the threats kept their reputation. But, the threats kept their reputation. But, the threats kept evolving. When I sat down with Ben at evolving. When I sat down with Ben at evolving. When I sat down with Ben at MicroConf, he told me about the lengths MicroConf, he told me about the lengths MicroConf, he told me about the lengths that they went to.

that they went to. that they went to. >> I mean, I had Kevin Mitnick constantly >> I mean, I had Kevin Mitnick constantly >> I mean, I had Kevin Mitnick constantly penetrating Mailchimp. I caught him in penetrating Mailchimp. I caught him in penetrating Mailchimp. I caught him in our company elevator one day trying to our company elevator one day trying to our company elevator one day trying to hack our elevator. hack our elevator. hack our elevator. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I mean, that guy That guy was a nut. He >> I mean, that guy That guy was a nut. He >> I mean, that guy That guy was a nut. He was a beast at that stuff. was a beast at that stuff. was a beast at that stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and he never He never got in, >> Um and he never He never got in, >> Um and he never He never got in, actually. He got He He He never actually. He got He He He never actually. He got He He He never penetrated. Uh and he He had to stop He penetrated. Uh and he He had to stop He penetrated. Uh and he He had to stop He We were the only client that he never We were the only client that he never We were the only client that he never penetrated during the project. And he penetrated during the project. And he penetrated during the project. And he got in, though, because the invoice he got in, though, because the invoice he got in, though, because the invoice he sent had a virus. The son of a sent had a virus. The son of a sent had a virus. The son of a >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. animal, which we maintain is cheating. animal, which we maintain is cheating. animal, which we maintain is cheating. >> For 20 years, when everyone saw the cute >> For 20 years, when everyone saw the cute >> For 20 years, when everyone saw the cute chimp logo and the clever marketing chimp logo and the clever marketing chimp logo and the clever marketing campaigns, Ben and Dan were fighting a campaigns, Ben and Dan were fighting a campaigns, Ben and Dan were fighting a war behind the scenes. A war that never war behind the scenes. A war that never war behind the scenes. A war that never ended. That's the unsexy reality of ended. That's the unsexy reality of ended. That's the unsexy reality of building something that lasts. It's all building something that lasts. It's all building something that lasts. It's all the work that no one ever sees. By 2020, Mailchimp was reportedly doing By 2020, Mailchimp was reportedly doing around $800 million in annual revenue, around $800 million in annual revenue, around $800 million in annual revenue, over 1,000 employees, one of the great over 1,000 employees, one of the great over 1,000 employees, one of the great success stories in tech. And Ben success stories in tech. And Ben success stories in tech. And Ben Chestnut was starting to feel different. Chestnut was starting to feel different. Chestnut was starting to feel different. >> It's It's much deeper than that. I mean, >> It's It's much deeper than that. I mean, >> It's It's much deeper than that. I mean, I had been warned in some of my earlier I had been warned in some of my earlier I had been warned in some of my earlier years, in my early 30s, I don't know, years, in my early 30s, I don't know, years, in my early 30s, I don't know, maybe late 20s.

maybe late 20s. maybe late 20s. You know, I had a lot of mentors, and You know, I had a lot of mentors, and You know, I had a lot of mentors, and some of them said, "Hey, you know, Ben, some of them said, "Hey, you know, Ben, some of them said, "Hey, you know, Ben, this business It's your business. You this business It's your business. You this business It's your business. You just started it. It means everything to just started it. It means everything to just started it. It means everything to you. It defines you. It's your whole you. It defines you. It's your whole you. It defines you. It's your whole life." And that was absolutely true. And life." And that was absolutely true. And life." And that was absolutely true. And I I never thought I'd sell. I thought I I never thought I'd sell. I thought I I never thought I'd sell. I thought I'd be 100 years old, you know, I'd be 100 years old, you know, I'd be 100 years old, you know, coming into work on my cane and still coming into work on my cane and still coming into work on my cane and still running Mailchimp. My mentors told me, running Mailchimp. My mentors told me, running Mailchimp. My mentors told me, "One day you're going to find out that "One day you're going to find out that "One day you're going to find out that the business is not really you. It the business is not really you. It the business is not really you. It doesn't define you. It's a tool. It's a doesn't define you. It's a tool. It's a doesn't define you. It's a tool. It's a nice thing that enriches your life. nice thing that enriches your life. nice thing that enriches your life. Uh you should be proud of it, but it Uh you should be proud of it, but it Uh you should be proud of it, but it doesn't It doesn't define you. So, one doesn't It doesn't define you. So, one doesn't It doesn't define you. So, one day, day, day, you know, if you're ever ready to sell you know, if you're ever ready to sell you know, if you're ever ready to sell it, could you please sell it to me?" it, could you please sell it to me?" it, could you please sell it to me?" That was Somebody That was Somebody That was Somebody You know, so You know, so You know, so that it's a little suspicious advice. that it's a little suspicious advice. that it's a little suspicious advice. >> The pandemic was the final catalyst. >> The pandemic was the final catalyst. >> The pandemic was the final catalyst. Running a thousand person company Running a thousand person company Running a thousand person company through COVID, the stress of it, the through COVID, the stress of it, the through COVID, the stress of it, the weight, and those business cards in the weight, and those business cards in the weight, and those business cards in the safe started to seem less like insurance safe started to seem less like insurance safe started to seem less like insurance and more like an option. On September and more like an option. On September and more like an option. On September 13th, 2021, Intuit announced it was 13th, 2021, Intuit announced it was 13th, 2021, Intuit announced it was acquiring Mailchimp for approximately 12 acquiring Mailchimp for approximately 12 acquiring Mailchimp for approximately 12 billion dollars. It was the largest billion dollars. It was the largest billion dollars. It was the largest acquisition in Intuit's history. And acquisition in Intuit's history. And acquisition in Intuit's history. And because Ben and Dan had never taken because Ben and Dan had never taken because Ben and Dan had never taken outside investment, there were no outside investment, there were no outside investment, there were no venture capitalists to pay off, no venture capitalists to pay off, no venture capitalists to pay off, no preferred shareholders waiting for their preferred shareholders waiting for their preferred shareholders waiting for their cut. Just two founders who had bet on cut. Just two founders who had bet on cut. Just two founders who had bet on themselves for 20 years and won.

So, what can we take away from this? If So, what can we take away from this? If you're building something on your own or you're building something on your own or you're building something on your own or considering building something, what can considering building something, what can considering building something, what can we actually take away from Ben and Dan's we actually take away from Ben and Dan's we actually take away from Ben and Dan's story? First, your side project might be story? First, your side project might be story? First, your side project might be the thing. Mailchimp was an afterthought the thing. Mailchimp was an afterthought the thing. Mailchimp was an afterthought for nine years. Ben and Dan kept for nine years. Ben and Dan kept for nine years. Ben and Dan kept treating the design agency as the real treating the design agency as the real treating the design agency as the real business. Sometimes the thing that's business. Sometimes the thing that's business. Sometimes the thing that's paying for lunch while you focus on your paying for lunch while you focus on your paying for lunch while you focus on your real work turns out to be the big play. real work turns out to be the big play. real work turns out to be the big play. Pay attention to what's working even if Pay attention to what's working even if Pay attention to what's working even if it's not what you planned. Second, it's not what you planned. Second, it's not what you planned. Second, constraints can create breakthroughs. constraints can create breakthroughs. constraints can create breakthroughs. Freemium happened because a programmer Freemium happened because a programmer Freemium happened because a programmer couldn't ship on time. The lack of VC couldn't ship on time. The lack of VC couldn't ship on time. The lack of VC funding forced them to stay profitable funding forced them to stay profitable funding forced them to stay profitable from day one. You can't plan for from day one. You can't plan for from day one. You can't plan for constraints to create breakthroughs, but constraints to create breakthroughs, but constraints to create breakthroughs, but you can choose not to optimize them you can choose not to optimize them you can choose not to optimize them away. Sometimes the limitation is the away. Sometimes the limitation is the away. Sometimes the limitation is the gift. Third, pick your mountain. Now, gift. Third, pick your mountain. Now, gift. Third, pick your mountain. Now, one mountain that Mailchimp picked was one mountain that Mailchimp picked was one mountain that Mailchimp picked was to do small business instead of to do small business instead of to do small business instead of enterprise and not try to do both. Ben enterprise and not try to do both. Ben enterprise and not try to do both. Ben drew that diagram on a sticky note for drew that diagram on a sticky note for drew that diagram on a sticky note for every new employee. And that specific every new employee. And that specific every new employee. And that specific strategy may or may not work today, but strategy may or may not work today, but strategy may or may not work today, but the idea is that Ben and Dan had really the idea is that Ben and Dan had really the idea is that Ben and Dan had really strong opinions about how they wanted to strong opinions about how they wanted to strong opinions about how they wanted to grow the business and the direction that grow the business and the direction that grow the business and the direction that they wanted to take it. And that allowed they wanted to take it. And that allowed they wanted to take it. And that allowed them to say no to opportunities that them to say no to opportunities that them to say no to opportunities that would have put them into a death valley.

would have put them into a death valley. would have put them into a death valley. So, for you, my advice is to find your So, for you, my advice is to find your So, for you, my advice is to find your mountain. There are certain things about mountain. There are certain things about mountain. There are certain things about your vision of the product or the market your vision of the product or the market your vision of the product or the market that you need to decide on and stick to. that you need to decide on and stick to. that you need to decide on and stick to. And you don't need to do this in the And you don't need to do this in the And you don't need to do this in the first day or week of your product, but first day or week of your product, but first day or week of your product, but once you're launched and serving once you're launched and serving once you're launched and serving customers, knowing what you're really customers, knowing what you're really customers, knowing what you're really out to do and what you stand for can be out to do and what you stand for can be out to do and what you stand for can be so helpful to say no to all the other so helpful to say no to all the other so helpful to say no to all the other opportunities that come along. Fourth, opportunities that come along. Fourth, opportunities that come along. Fourth, abuse is inevitable. Prepare for it. Ben abuse is inevitable. Prepare for it. Ben abuse is inevitable. Prepare for it. Ben told the Freemium Summit audience in told the Freemium Summit audience in told the Freemium Summit audience in 2010, you were going to have a really 2010, you were going to have a really 2010, you were going to have a really horrible abuse-related event if you're horrible abuse-related event if you're horrible abuse-related event if you're successful. They built Omnivore before successful. They built Omnivore before successful. They built Omnivore before they needed it. They hired Kevin Mitnick they needed it. They hired Kevin Mitnick they needed it. They hired Kevin Mitnick to try to break in. They treated to try to break in. They treated to try to break in. They treated security and abuse prevention as core to security and abuse prevention as core to security and abuse prevention as core to the business, not an afterthought. If the business, not an afterthought. If the business, not an afterthought. If you're building something people will you're building something people will you're building something people will use, bad actors will find you. Start use, bad actors will find you. Start use, bad actors will find you. Start thinking about it now. Fifth, no one has thinking about it now. Fifth, no one has thinking about it now. Fifth, no one has all the answers. all the answers. all the answers. >> We're all winging it. I mean, I get >> We're all winging it. I mean, I get >> We're all winging it. I mean, I get invited to some pretty damn good invited to some pretty damn good invited to some pretty damn good conferences these days with like top conferences these days with like top conferences these days with like top executives from huge companies, executives from huge companies, executives from huge companies, they're winging it. they're winging it. they're winging it. Like I came with my notepad right there. Like I came with my notepad right there. Like I came with my notepad right there. I I was I was like, "Oh, They I I was I was like, "Oh, They I I was I was like, "Oh, They don't know either."

don't know either." don't know either." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Nobody has all the answers. Not the VCs, >> Nobody has all the answers. Not the VCs, >> Nobody has all the answers. Not the VCs, not the executives at the top, not the not the executives at the top, not the not the executives at the top, not the founders who seem like they have founders who seem like they have founders who seem like they have everything figured out. There are everything figured out. There are everything figured out. There are definitely people who have more definitely people who have more definitely people who have more experience and more answers than others, experience and more answers than others, experience and more answers than others, but those folks are also making some but those folks are also making some but those folks are also making some things up as they go. The difference is things up as they go. The difference is things up as they go. The difference is whether you keep going. And finally, whether you keep going. And finally, whether you keep going. And finally, your business is not you and you are not your business is not you and you are not your business is not you and you are not your business. your business. your business. Ben thought he'd run Mailchimp forever, Ben thought he'd run Mailchimp forever, Ben thought he'd run Mailchimp forever, but somewhere along the way he learned but somewhere along the way he learned but somewhere along the way he learned that his identity wasn't intertwined that his identity wasn't intertwined that his identity wasn't intertwined with the company he built. That with the company he built. That with the company he built. That separation, that freedom, is what separation, that freedom, is what separation, that freedom, is what allowed him and Dan to walk away on allowed him and Dan to walk away on allowed him and Dan to walk away on their own terms with $12 billion their own terms with $12 billion their own terms with $12 billion and no regrets. Near the end of our and no regrets. Near the end of our and no regrets. Near the end of our conversation, someone asked Ben, "If you conversation, someone asked Ben, "If you conversation, someone asked Ben, "If you could go back 23 years and give yourself could go back 23 years and give yourself could go back 23 years and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?" one piece of advice, what would it be?" one piece of advice, what would it be?" >> I mean, look at me. Things turned out >> I mean, look at me. Things turned out >> I mean, look at me. Things turned out okay. okay. okay. Uh Uh Uh I would I would I would I'd probably keep my mouth shut. I'd probably keep my mouth shut. I'd probably keep my mouth shut. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Don't want to screw it up. Don't F with >> Don't want to screw it up. Don't F with >> Don't want to screw it up. Don't F with anything. Just keep going. anything. Just keep going. anything. Just keep going. >> Just keep going. Mailchimp story isn't >> Just keep going. Mailchimp story isn't >> Just keep going. Mailchimp story isn't about being the smartest or the fastest.

about being the smartest or the fastest. about being the smartest or the fastest. It's about showing up every day for 20 It's about showing up every day for 20 It's about showing up every day for 20 years, making decisions that felt right, years, making decisions that felt right, years, making decisions that felt right, and having the courage to ignore the and having the courage to ignore the and having the courage to ignore the playbook everyone else was following. playbook everyone else was following. playbook everyone else was following. Ben Chestnut and Dan Kurzius built the Ben Chestnut and Dan Kurzius built the Ben Chestnut and Dan Kurzius built the largest bootstrapped exit in history, largest bootstrapped exit in history, largest bootstrapped exit in history, not by being geniuses, but by, in Ben's not by being geniuses, but by, in Ben's not by being geniuses, but by, in Ben's words, Forrest Gumping their way through words, Forrest Gumping their way through words, Forrest Gumping their way through two decades of challenges. If you're in two decades of challenges. If you're in two decades of challenges. If you're in the early days of your company right the early days of your company right the early days of your company right now, feeling like you're just stumbling now, feeling like you're just stumbling now, feeling like you're just stumbling through, take heart. So were they. I'm through, take heart. So were they. I'm through, take heart. So were they. I'm Rob Walling, and this has been SaaS Rob Walling, and this has been SaaS Rob Walling, and this has been SaaS Legends. If you want to see the full Legends. If you want to see the full Legends. If you want to see the full conversation I had with Ben at MicroConf conversation I had with Ben at MicroConf conversation I had with Ben at MicroConf 2024, including his thoughts on AI, on 2024, including his thoughts on AI, on 2024, including his thoughts on AI, on building a creative culture, check out building a creative culture, check out building a creative culture, check out the full interview from MicroConf in the full interview from MicroConf in the full interview from MicroConf in Atlanta over here. And if you're Atlanta over here. And if you're Atlanta over here. And if you're building something of your own, hit building something of your own, hit building something of your own, hit subscribe. I'll see you next time.