Rob Walling Answers Audience Questions

and we are live. Welcome back to and we are live. Welcome back to Microconf on Air just about every other Microconf on Air just about every other Microconf on Air just about every other week at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 PM Eastern, week at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 PM Eastern, week at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 PM Eastern, we live stream for yeah 20 or 30 minutes we live stream for yeah 20 or 30 minutes we live stream for yeah 20 or 30 minutes and we talk about all things SAS, and we talk about all things SAS, and we talk about all things SAS, startup, sometimes life, sometimes startup, sometimes life, sometimes startup, sometimes life, sometimes freedom, purpose, and relationships. And freedom, purpose, and relationships. And freedom, purpose, and relationships. And I'm really glad that you join me today I'm really glad that you join me today I'm really glad that you join me today because it is this is the most because it is this is the most because it is this is the most creatively titled on air we've ever had. creatively titled on air we've ever had. creatively titled on air we've ever had. Rob answers audience questions. Um, we Rob answers audience questions. Um, we Rob answers audience questions. Um, we are going to be talking for the next 15, are going to be talking for the next 15, are going to be talking for the next 15, 20 minutes, maybe 30 until the questions 20 minutes, maybe 30 until the questions 20 minutes, maybe 30 until the questions run out. I see we already have several run out. I see we already have several run out. I see we already have several that have come in to the MicroCom onair that have come in to the MicroCom onair that have come in to the MicroCom onair channel in Microcom Connect. If you're channel in Microcom Connect. If you're channel in Microcom Connect. If you're not in there, head to microconnect.com, not in there, head to microconnect.com, not in there, head to microconnect.com, get signed up. That's the easiest way to get signed up. That's the easiest way to get signed up. That's the easiest way to answer questions and those get a slight answer questions and those get a slight answer questions and those get a slight priority over over the uh the other priority over over the uh the other priority over over the uh the other avenues. We have crossed 3,000 founders avenues. We have crossed 3,000 founders avenues. We have crossed 3,000 founders and aspiring founders in Microsoft and aspiring founders in Microsoft and aspiring founders in Microsoft Connect as of just a few days ago. So, Connect as of just a few days ago. So, Connect as of just a few days ago. So, it's exciting news. There's a lot of it's exciting news. There's a lot of it's exciting news. There's a lot of great conversations. Um, and there's great conversations. Um, and there's great conversations. Um, and there's channels ranging from whiskey to rants channels ranging from whiskey to rants channels ranging from whiskey to rants to SAS pricing to hiring to micro on air to SAS pricing to hiring to micro on air to SAS pricing to hiring to micro on air where folks are asking questions today.

where folks are asking questions today. where folks are asking questions today. If you are watching on YouTube, you can If you are watching on YouTube, you can If you are watching on YouTube, you can also uh ask them in the chat. And also uh ask them in the chat. And also uh ask them in the chat. And producer Ron is manning the switchboard producer Ron is manning the switchboard producer Ron is manning the switchboard today. So, he'll be pulling those into today. So, he'll be pulling those into today. So, he'll be pulling those into uh this lovely outline doc that I have uh this lovely outline doc that I have uh this lovely outline doc that I have here. And I'm excited to get into it. here. And I'm excited to get into it. here. And I'm excited to get into it. All topics are allowed. Doesn't mean All topics are allowed. Doesn't mean All topics are allowed. Doesn't mean I'll answer every question that you ask, I'll answer every question that you ask, I'll answer every question that you ask, but um we can talk about startups, we but um we can talk about startups, we but um we can talk about startups, we can talk about Star Wars, talk about the can talk about Star Wars, talk about the can talk about Star Wars, talk about the Beatles, duckized horses, or horse-sized Beatles, duckized horses, or horse-sized Beatles, duckized horses, or horse-sized ducks. Let's dive in without further ducks. Let's dive in without further ducks. Let's dive in without further ado. ado. ado. All right, first question from Fast All right, first question from Fast All right, first question from Fast Eddie from YouTube. Thanks for asking Eddie from YouTube. Thanks for asking Eddie from YouTube. Thanks for asking this one, Eddie. He says, "What are this one, Eddie. He says, "What are this one, Eddie. He says, "What are three key tips for pre-launch, three key tips for pre-launch, three key tips for pre-launch, pre-revenue pre-revenue pre-revenue to make sure you absolutely must do?" to make sure you absolutely must do?" to make sure you absolutely must do?" Okay, so there's a lot of tips here. Okay, so there's a lot of tips here. Okay, so there's a lot of tips here. I'll try to stick it to stick to three. I'll try to stick it to stick to three. I'll try to stick it to stick to three. Um the first one is I would absolutely Um the first one is I would absolutely Um the first one is I would absolutely be building some type of launch list. be building some type of launch list. be building some type of launch list. Usually it's an email list that you have Usually it's an email list that you have Usually it's an email list that you have of interested parties. Sometimes it's as of interested parties. Sometimes it's as of interested parties. Sometimes it's as simple as literally a Trello board. Like simple as literally a Trello board. Like simple as literally a Trello board. Like if this is an enterprise product where if this is an enterprise product where if this is an enterprise product where you are going to be doing hight touch you are going to be doing hight touch you are going to be doing hight touch sales and your contract values are $500 sales and your contract values are $500 sales and your contract values are $500 a month, $5,000 a month, like really a month, $5,000 a month, like really a month, $5,000 a month, like really expensive stuff, then maybe you only expensive stuff, then maybe you only expensive stuff, then maybe you only have five or 10 on this launch list who have five or 10 on this launch list who have five or 10 on this launch list who are interested in hearing about it and are interested in hearing about it and are interested in hearing about it and you're handing and doing calls and doing you're handing and doing calls and doing you're handing and doing calls and doing demos and they're doing customer demos and they're doing customer demos and they're doing customer development with them where they have development with them where they have development with them where they have input. If it's something that's priced input. If it's something that's priced input. If it's something that's priced more in the $10 a month, $100 a month more in the $10 a month, $100 a month more in the $10 a month, $100 a month range, then you want to build more of an range, then you want to build more of an range, then you want to build more of an email list in a in an ESP like a drip, a

email list in a in an ESP like a drip, a email list in a in an ESP like a drip, a Mailchimp, an active campaign. And this Mailchimp, an active campaign. And this Mailchimp, an active campaign. And this is where I say I used to say start is where I say I used to say start is where I say I used to say start marketing the day you start coding. And marketing the day you start coding. And marketing the day you start coding. And in fact, that is a title of my third in fact, that is a title of my third in fact, that is a title of my third book. It's available for free. Download book. It's available for free. Download book. It's available for free. Download as a PDF. Um, go to robing.com, enter as a PDF. Um, go to robing.com, enter as a PDF. Um, go to robing.com, enter your email, and you can get that book. your email, and you can get that book. your email, and you can get that book. Now I say start marketing before you Now I say start marketing before you Now I say start marketing before you start coding because I think a huge start coding because I think a huge start coding because I think a huge mistake that so many developers make is mistake that so many developers make is mistake that so many developers make is they go off build a product that no one they go off build a product that no one they go off build a product that no one wants. And oftentimes it isn't that the wants. And oftentimes it isn't that the wants. And oftentimes it isn't that the product is completely unwantable or product is completely unwantable or product is completely unwantable or unusable but it's they missed the mark unusable but it's they missed the mark unusable but it's they missed the mark by 20% or 50% and if they had just had by 20% or 50% and if they had just had by 20% or 50% and if they had just had more conversations with folks on their more conversations with folks on their more conversations with folks on their launch list then you know they would launch list then you know they would launch list then you know they would have been able to build build a better have been able to build build a better have been able to build build a better product. That's the first one. Second product. That's the first one. Second product. That's the first one. Second one is have conversations. Um whether one is have conversations. Um whether one is have conversations. Um whether these are email conversations, whether these are email conversations, whether these are email conversations, whether these are Zoom conversations, whether these are Zoom conversations, whether these are Zoom conversations, whether these are in person, these are in person, these are in person, there should be folks who want what you there should be folks who want what you there should be folks who want what you are building. If you're building B2B are building. If you're building B2B are building. If you're building B2B SAS, then you're trying to solve a pain SAS, then you're trying to solve a pain SAS, then you're trying to solve a pain point. 92 93% of B2B SAS, according to point. 92 93% of B2B SAS, according to point. 92 93% of B2B SAS, according to the state of independent SAS, they are the state of independent SAS, they are the state of independent SAS, they are uh people who have built SAS apps, 93% uh people who have built SAS apps, 93% uh people who have built SAS apps, 93% are doing it to solve a specific pain.

are doing it to solve a specific pain. are doing it to solve a specific pain. And that is really what that's really And that is really what that's really And that is really what that's really what SAS is about, right? Um, it we're what SAS is about, right? Um, it we're what SAS is about, right? Um, it we're not building video games to entertain. not building video games to entertain. not building video games to entertain. We're not building Netflix so people can We're not building Netflix so people can We're not building Netflix so people can chill. We're trying to solve a problem chill. We're trying to solve a problem chill. We're trying to solve a problem that is that that businesses, maybe it's that is that that businesses, maybe it's that is that that businesses, maybe it's small businesses, maybe it's proumers, small businesses, maybe it's proumers, small businesses, maybe it's proumers, but someone is willing to pay for. And but someone is willing to pay for. And but someone is willing to pay for. And so if you're not having that so if you're not having that so if you're not having that conversation in advance of writing code conversation in advance of writing code conversation in advance of writing code as you're writing code, and when I say as you're writing code, and when I say as you're writing code, and when I say writing code, you know, maybe it's no writing code, you know, maybe it's no writing code, you know, maybe it's no code, maybe you're building it in code, maybe you're building it in code, maybe you're building it in bubble. I think we have a question that bubble. I think we have a question that bubble. I think we have a question that might be coming up uh around that. Um, might be coming up uh around that. Um, might be coming up uh around that. Um, but you know, think about having these but you know, think about having these but you know, think about having these conversations up front and whether it's conversations up front and whether it's conversations up front and whether it's whether you want to do validation, whether you want to do validation, whether you want to do validation, whether you want to pre-ell, whether you whether you want to pre-ell, whether you whether you want to pre-ell, whether you want to just ask for verbal commits, want to just ask for verbal commits, want to just ask for verbal commits, whether you just want to ask if if I whether you just want to ask if if I whether you just want to ask if if I built this, would you use it? And then built this, would you use it? And then built this, would you use it? And then dig into, you know, what have you done dig into, you know, what have you done dig into, you know, what have you done to solve this problem uh to date and and to solve this problem uh to date and and to solve this problem uh to date and and going to some place like um the mom test going to some place like um the mom test going to some place like um the mom test if you haven't read that book. Asking if you haven't read that book. Asking if you haven't read that book. Asking those types of questions of, you know, those types of questions of, you know, those types of questions of, you know, will you actually use this product? I will you actually use this product? I will you actually use this product? I think is is number two. So that's think is is number two. So that's think is is number two. So that's getting some type of validation. And I getting some type of validation. And I getting some type of validation. And I don't just mean one time of like, well, don't just mean one time of like, well, don't just mean one time of like, well, five people said they want it and now five people said they want it and now five people said they want it and now I'm going to go spend 6 months building I'm going to go spend 6 months building I'm going to go spend 6 months building it. That's not how you do it. It's it. That's not how you do it. It's it. That's not how you do it. It's iterative, right? You have to iterate iterative, right? You have to iterate iterative, right? You have to iterate and iterate. Much like all the geniuses and iterate. Much like all the geniuses and iterate. Much like all the geniuses of our time have done. If you go back, of our time have done. If you go back, of our time have done. If you go back, listen to podcast episode 600 that I listen to podcast episode 600 that I listen to podcast episode 600 that I released this week, I talked about how, released this week, I talked about how, released this week, I talked about how, you know, it's not, you don't just come you know, it's not, you don't just come you know, it's not, you don't just come up with the genius idea and run with it.

up with the genius idea and run with it. up with the genius idea and run with it. The Beatles didn't do it. Um, Einstein The Beatles didn't do it. Um, Einstein The Beatles didn't do it. Um, Einstein didn't do it and and Picasso didn't do didn't do it and and Picasso didn't do didn't do it and and Picasso didn't do it. They often iterated and iterated it. They often iterated and iterated it. They often iterated and iterated until they find found the right answer. until they find found the right answer. until they find found the right answer. So unless you think you are a better So unless you think you are a better So unless you think you are a better better musicians in the Beatles, smarter better musicians in the Beatles, smarter better musicians in the Beatles, smarter than Einstein and or better artist than than Einstein and or better artist than than Einstein and or better artist than Picasso, you're probably going to have Picasso, you're probably going to have Picasso, you're probably going to have to iterate too. So that's number two. to iterate too. So that's number two. to iterate too. So that's number two. First was launchless. Second is having First was launchless. Second is having First was launchless. Second is having conversations ongoing um as you go. And conversations ongoing um as you go. And conversations ongoing um as you go. And then the third one, let's see, then the third one, let's see, then the third one, let's see, pre-launch, pre-revenue. pre-launch, pre-revenue. pre-launch, pre-revenue. I think I would start toying with some I think I would start toying with some I think I would start toying with some marketing approaches because the biggest marketing approaches because the biggest marketing approaches because the biggest so the biggest risk when you are so the biggest risk when you are so the biggest risk when you are launching a B2B SAS these days it's not launching a B2B SAS these days it's not launching a B2B SAS these days it's not technology risk you can build any idea technology risk you can build any idea technology risk you can build any idea you have pretty much the risk is that no you have pretty much the risk is that no you have pretty much the risk is that no one cares or that you can't reach anyone one cares or that you can't reach anyone one cares or that you can't reach anyone who cares and so how do you reach folks who cares and so how do you reach folks who cares and so how do you reach folks well there's Facebook groups there are well there's Facebook groups there are well there's Facebook groups there are um there's SEO there's content marketing um there's SEO there's content marketing um there's SEO there's content marketing there are paid paper pay-per-click ads there are paid paper pay-per-click ads there are paid paper pay-per-click ads there are partnerships and integrations there are partnerships and integrations there are partnerships and integrations There's all these things that you can be There's all these things that you can be There's all these things that you can be thinking about and even dipping your toe thinking about and even dipping your toe thinking about and even dipping your toe into the water, testing before you into the water, testing before you into the water, testing before you launch. So when before we launched Drip, launch. So when before we launched Drip, launch. So when before we launched Drip, I was already running Facebook and I was already running Facebook and I was already running Facebook and Google ads to a couple different landing Google ads to a couple different landing Google ads to a couple different landing pages, split testing headlines, and pages, split testing headlines, and pages, split testing headlines, and gathering emails. And I wound up gathering emails. And I wound up gathering emails. And I wound up gathering a total of about 3,400 emails gathering a total of about 3,400 emails gathering a total of about 3,400 emails on our launch list. That was from on our launch list. That was from on our launch list. That was from podcast appearances I was doing. That podcast appearances I was doing. That podcast appearances I was doing. That was from Inerson conversations. And was from Inerson conversations. And was from Inerson conversations. And about I think about 500 of those were about I think about 500 of those were about I think about 500 of those were were paid. they didn't, you know, they were paid. they didn't, you know, they were paid. they didn't, you know, they didn't convert amazingly well, but I was didn't convert amazingly well, but I was didn't convert amazingly well, but I was learning the space, learning how people learning the space, learning how people learning the space, learning how people talked about it. And so, I think um talked about it. And so, I think um talked about it. And so, I think um that's the other thing I'd be doing is

that's the other thing I'd be doing is that's the other thing I'd be doing is is figuring out one approach that I that is figuring out one approach that I that is figuring out one approach that I that I feel good about, you know, that that I feel good about, you know, that that I feel good about, you know, that that when the day we hit launch, I know we're when the day we hit launch, I know we're when the day we hit launch, I know we're going to be, you know, doing the product going to be, you know, doing the product going to be, you know, doing the product hunt thing and emailing our list. But hunt thing and emailing our list. But hunt thing and emailing our list. But beyond that, what are we thinking about? beyond that, what are we thinking about? beyond that, what are we thinking about? Um Oh, my screen just went black. Um Oh, my screen just went black. Um Oh, my screen just went black. Hopefully, I'm still streaming. Yeah, it Hopefully, I'm still streaming. Yeah, it Hopefully, I'm still streaming. Yeah, it looks good. All right. So, thanks for looks good. All right. So, thanks for looks good. All right. So, thanks for that question, Eddie. It's It's a really that question, Eddie. It's It's a really that question, Eddie. It's It's a really good question. Um, probably deserves, good question. Um, probably deserves, good question. Um, probably deserves, you know, a blog post or a whole podcast you know, a blog post or a whole podcast you know, a blog post or a whole podcast episode, to be honest. All right, next episode, to be honest. All right, next episode, to be honest. All right, next question is from David. He says, "What question is from David. He says, "What question is from David. He says, "What has the body of a unicorn and the head has the body of a unicorn and the head has the body of a unicorn and the head of a Pegasus? I love the um I This is of a Pegasus? I love the um I This is of a Pegasus? I love the um I This is like the duck size one." So, I will like the duck size one." So, I will like the duck size one." So, I will admit, David, I didn't know the answer admit, David, I didn't know the answer admit, David, I didn't know the answer to this, and that's why it's amazing to this, and that's why it's amazing to this, and that's why it's amazing that we have Google at our disposal. So that we have Google at our disposal. So that we have Google at our disposal. So according to Google, this creature has according to Google, this creature has according to Google, this creature has no specific name, but in some literature no specific name, but in some literature no specific name, but in some literature and media, it has been referred to as an and media, it has been referred to as an and media, it has been referred to as an alicorn, a Latin word for the horn of a alicorn, a Latin word for the horn of a alicorn, a Latin word for the horn of a unicorn, especially an alchemical text. unicorn, especially an alchemical text. unicorn, especially an alchemical text. I don't know what alchemical means, but I don't know what alchemical means, but I don't know what alchemical means, but I like it. And producer Ron, let's skip I like it. And producer Ron, let's skip I like it. And producer Ron, let's skip down to Justin Jackson's question. Yeah, down to Justin Jackson's question. Yeah, down to Justin Jackson's question. Yeah, looks like we have three down here at looks like we have three down here at looks like we have three down here at the bottom.

the bottom. the bottom. Um, next question is from Justin Jackson Um, next question is from Justin Jackson Um, next question is from Justin Jackson on YouTube and he says, "Hi Justin, uh, on YouTube and he says, "Hi Justin, uh, on YouTube and he says, "Hi Justin, uh, you originally launched Startups Rest of you originally launched Startups Rest of you originally launched Startups Rest of Us in 2010. Later, you launched Tiny Us in 2010. Later, you launched Tiny Us in 2010. Later, you launched Tiny Seed Tales. How was launching Tiny Seed Seed Tales. How was launching Tiny Seed Seed Tales. How was launching Tiny Seed Tales different than Startups for the Tales different than Startups for the Tales different than Startups for the Rest of Us, which is a podcast. What's Rest of Us, which is a podcast. What's Rest of Us, which is a podcast. What's changed in terms of podcast launch changed in terms of podcast launch changed in terms of podcast launch strategy since then?" It's a really good strategy since then?" It's a really good strategy since then?" It's a really good question because I've actually been question because I've actually been question because I've actually been noodling and yeah, don't quote me on noodling and yeah, don't quote me on noodling and yeah, don't quote me on this, but we've been noodling on, you this, but we've been noodling on, you this, but we've been noodling on, you know, should should we launch yet know, should should we launch yet know, should should we launch yet another podcast? And so I was actually another podcast? And so I was actually another podcast? And so I was actually revisiting this topic over the past few revisiting this topic over the past few revisiting this topic over the past few weeks. So launching Tiny Seed Tales was weeks. So launching Tiny Seed Tales was weeks. So launching Tiny Seed Tales was a lot. Well, it's interesting because a lot. Well, it's interesting because a lot. Well, it's interesting because when we launched Startups for the rest when we launched Startups for the rest when we launched Startups for the rest of us, I actually did go all in on of us, I actually did go all in on of us, I actually did go all in on promoting it and we got on Apple's new promoting it and we got on Apple's new promoting it and we got on Apple's new and noteworthy. Um, we followed the and noteworthy. Um, we followed the and noteworthy. Um, we followed the these basic principles that I'm not 100% these basic principles that I'm not 100% these basic principles that I'm not 100% sure if they're still valid today, but sure if they're still valid today, but sure if they're still valid today, but back in 2010, you you didn't have back in 2010, you you didn't have back in 2010, you you didn't have trailers. You would record four episodes trailers. You would record four episodes trailers. You would record four episodes of your podcast and you would put all of of your podcast and you would put all of of your podcast and you would put all of those in the iTunes store. It was iTunes those in the iTunes store. It was iTunes those in the iTunes store. It was iTunes podcast thing. It's called Apple Podcast podcast thing. It's called Apple Podcast podcast thing. It's called Apple Podcast today, right? There was no Spotify.

today, right? There was no Spotify. today, right? There was no Spotify. There were none, you know, most of these There were none, you know, most of these There were none, you know, most of these other others didn't exist. So, it was other others didn't exist. So, it was other others didn't exist. So, it was all after iTunes and you did four all after iTunes and you did four all after iTunes and you did four episodes because I believe when someone episodes because I believe when someone episodes because I believe when someone clicked subscribe by default it clicked subscribe by default it clicked subscribe by default it downloaded up to four episodes and it downloaded up to four episodes and it downloaded up to four episodes and it would goose your download numbers giving would goose your download numbers giving would goose your download numbers giving you if you only had one it would give you if you only had one it would give you if you only had one it would give you a quarter of the download numbers you a quarter of the download numbers you a quarter of the download numbers and so download numbers get Apple's and so download numbers get Apple's and so download numbers get Apple's attention and I believe if you have it's attention and I believe if you have it's attention and I believe if you have it's it was like good artwork and good it was like good artwork and good it was like good artwork and good quality and reasonable downloads they quality and reasonable downloads they quality and reasonable downloads they would put you in uh new and noteworthy would put you in uh new and noteworthy would put you in uh new and noteworthy and so that was a big thing that that and so that was a big thing that that and so that was a big thing that that tried and we we succeeded. Tiny seed tried and we we succeeded. Tiny seed tried and we we succeeded. Tiny seed tails was different. I didn't launch it tails was different. I didn't launch it tails was different. I didn't launch it like that. We actually just used our own like that. We actually just used our own like that. We actually just used our own audience because we have you know across audience because we have you know across audience because we have you know across microcom tiny seed robing.com startups microcom tiny seed robing.com startups microcom tiny seed robing.com startups the rest of us like literally tens of the rest of us like literally tens of the rest of us like literally tens of tens and tens of thousands of folks who tens and tens of thousands of folks who tens and tens of thousands of folks who already know about us. So we were able already know about us. So we were able already know about us. So we were able to send some emails do some social and to send some emails do some social and to send some emails do some social and and we really did parlayed that. Um what and we really did parlayed that. Um what and we really did parlayed that. Um what so what I don't know is if that same so what I don't know is if that same so what I don't know is if that same strategy would still work today you know strategy would still work today you know strategy would still work today you know to try to get on new and noteworthy. My to try to get on new and noteworthy. My to try to get on new and noteworthy. My gut is that it is so competitive today gut is that it is so competitive today gut is that it is so competitive today that it it it might still work but it that it it it might still work but it that it it it might still work but it it's a much more long shot and that's it's a much more long shot and that's it's a much more long shot and that's actually why we decided not to spend all actually why we decided not to spend all actually why we decided not to spend all the time on that launch strategy um of the time on that launch strategy um of the time on that launch strategy um of kind of targeting Apple trying to get kind of targeting Apple trying to get kind of targeting Apple trying to get the reviews early. Like I've never asked the reviews early. Like I've never asked the reviews early. Like I've never asked for reviews on Tiny Tales because it's for reviews on Tiny Tales because it's for reviews on Tiny Tales because it's just not like a main focus. So, um, and just not like a main focus. So, um, and just not like a main focus. So, um, and these days, you know, I launched Tiny these days, you know, I launched Tiny these days, you know, I launched Tiny Sea Tails as a separate podcast and then Sea Tails as a separate podcast and then Sea Tails as a separate podcast and then a couple months later, um, I was having a couple months later, um, I was having a couple months later, um, I was having a conversation with Dan Andrews of

a conversation with Dan Andrews of a conversation with Dan Andrews of Tropical MBA and he said, "Why is it Tropical MBA and he said, "Why is it Tropical MBA and he said, "Why is it even on a different feed? You're the even on a different feed? You're the even on a different feed? You're the same host. You're still talking about same host. You're still talking about same host. You're still talking about SAS and startups and bootstrapping. SAS and startups and bootstrapping. SAS and startups and bootstrapping. It's kind of the same thing. I would It's kind of the same thing. I would It's kind of the same thing. I would just put on the same feed. you already just put on the same feed. you already just put on the same feed. you already have the distribution there, you know, have the distribution there, you know, have the distribution there, you know, because startups, the rest of us at the because startups, the rest of us at the because startups, the rest of us at the time probably had 10 times maybe 20 10 time probably had 10 times maybe 20 10 time probably had 10 times maybe 20 10 to 20 times the listener base that Tiny to 20 times the listener base that Tiny to 20 times the listener base that Tiny Tales did because starting the next Tales did because starting the next Tales did because starting the next thing is really hard. Um, it is hard to thing is really hard. Um, it is hard to thing is really hard. Um, it is hard to to launch your next startup. I think we to launch your next startup. I think we to launch your next startup. I think we have a question about that later. It's have a question about that later. It's have a question about that later. It's hard to launch your next podcast. It's hard to launch your next podcast. It's hard to launch your next podcast. It's hard to launch your next blog because it hard to launch your next blog because it hard to launch your next blog because it it doesn't have the same um I I think it doesn't have the same um I I think it doesn't have the same um I I think it's kind of like you've moved past it's kind of like you've moved past it's kind of like you've moved past there often, you know, after you've been there often, you know, after you've been there often, you know, after you've been doing it for a decade. you're like, doing it for a decade. you're like, doing it for a decade. you're like, "Well, I'm used to there being tens of "Well, I'm used to there being tens of "Well, I'm used to there being tens of thousands of listeners and to go back to thousands of listeners and to go back to thousands of listeners and to go back to a thousand people listening to you." a thousand people listening to you." a thousand people listening to you." It's kind it can be kind of tough. No, It's kind it can be kind of tough. No, It's kind it can be kind of tough. No, on the flip side, it's easier because on the flip side, it's easier because on the flip side, it's easier because you already have an audience and you can you already have an audience and you can you already have an audience and you can point them there. Um, but you know, not point them there. Um, but you know, not point them there. Um, but you know, not everyone subscribes. So, that uh thanks everyone subscribes. So, that uh thanks everyone subscribes. So, that uh thanks for the question, Justin. I appreciate for the question, Justin. I appreciate for the question, Justin. I appreciate that. Next question is from Carlos from that. Next question is from Carlos from that. Next question is from Carlos from Micromp Connect. He says, "I'm starting Micromp Connect. He says, "I'm starting Micromp Connect. He says, "I'm starting a new SAS business and despite a a new SAS business and despite a a new SAS business and despite a successful previous experience, I can't successful previous experience, I can't successful previous experience, I can't stop feeling extremely anxious about stop feeling extremely anxious about stop feeling extremely anxious about it." Hey, this is the exact topic we it." Hey, this is the exact topic we it." Hey, this is the exact topic we are. This is a great segue. Is this are. This is a great segue. Is this are. This is a great segue. Is this something you're familiar with? How did something you're familiar with? How did something you're familiar with? How did you deal with it? Absolutely. So, every you deal with it? Absolutely. So, every you deal with it? Absolutely. So, every time I launch something, whether it's a time I launch something, whether it's a time I launch something, whether it's a new podcast, a single blog post, um new podcast, a single blog post, um new podcast, a single blog post, um a new conference, um launching Tiny a new conference, um launching Tiny a new conference, um launching Tiny Seed, launching Drip, each of these I Seed, launching Drip, each of these I Seed, launching Drip, each of these I get that terror of firsts, that Google get that terror of firsts, that Google get that terror of firsts, that Google terror of first. It's a blog post I

terror of first. It's a blog post I terror of first. It's a blog post I wrote years ago, an essay, and I wrote years ago, an essay, and I wrote years ago, an essay, and I absolutely had it with Drip. already had absolutely had it with Drip. already had absolutely had it with Drip. already had um literally created millions of dollars um literally created millions of dollars um literally created millions of dollars in SAS revenue before um Drip. I had you in SAS revenue before um Drip. I had you in SAS revenue before um Drip. I had you know written a book that became a know written a book that became a know written a book that became a bestseller about starting startups. Like bestseller about starting startups. Like bestseller about starting startups. Like I had been doing this for a long time I had been doing this for a long time I had been doing this for a long time and let's see when we launched Drip it and let's see when we launched Drip it and let's see when we launched Drip it was when was it? It was 2013 and I was when was it? It was 2013 and I was when was it? It was 2013 and I started Yeah. So I was about eight years started Yeah. So I was about eight years started Yeah. So I was about eight years in. Um, and I had multiple successes in. Um, and I had multiple successes in. Um, and I had multiple successes under my belt. Like I had been working under my belt. Like I had been working under my belt. Like I had been working for myself for, you know, six years or for myself for, you know, six years or for myself for, you know, six years or something. And I was still something. And I was still something. And I was still pretty anxious about it. And I think the pretty anxious about it. And I think the pretty anxious about it. And I think the stakes get, well, I think there's a stakes get, well, I think there's a stakes get, well, I think there's a couple things. The stakes get a little couple things. The stakes get a little couple things. The stakes get a little higher when you're perhaps a little well higher when you're perhaps a little well higher when you're perhaps a little well more well known because there's more more well known because there's more more well known because there's more eyeballs on you. So that can be one eyeballs on you. So that can be one eyeballs on you. So that can be one thing. And I'm not sure, Carlos, if you thing. And I'm not sure, Carlos, if you thing. And I'm not sure, Carlos, if you have that. But the other thing is, like have that. But the other thing is, like have that. But the other thing is, like I said, it's hard to go back. It's we I said, it's hard to go back. It's we I said, it's hard to go back. It's we forget how difficult it is in the early forget how difficult it is in the early forget how difficult it is in the early days. You know, you forget what it's days. You know, you forget what it's days. You know, you forget what it's like to sit and code for three months like to sit and code for three months like to sit and code for three months and really only have a handful of people and really only have a handful of people and really only have a handful of people that you're talking to about it. Not that you're talking to about it. Not that you're talking to about it. Not knowing if you're going to get the knowing if you're going to get the knowing if you're going to get the positioning right, not knowing if you're positioning right, not knowing if you're positioning right, not knowing if you're building something people wants, building something people wants, building something people wants, something people want, not knowing if something people want, not knowing if something people want, not knowing if if it's going to work and to spend if it's going to work and to spend if it's going to work and to spend months and months and then launch and months and months and then launch and months and months and then launch and then it you know, even if the launch then it you know, even if the launch then it you know, even if the launch goes well, you'll often have a lot of goes well, you'll often have a lot of goes well, you'll often have a lot of churn up front and then you'll feel bad churn up front and then you'll feel bad churn up front and then you'll feel bad like I'm not really good at this. you like I'm not really good at this. you like I'm not really good at this. you get imposter syndrome again like you get imposter syndrome again like you get imposter syndrome again like you have already many many times. So um have already many many times. So um have already many many times. So um absolutely you know uh I've I've felt

absolutely you know uh I've I've felt absolutely you know uh I've I've felt it. I think the thing to think about or it. I think the thing to think about or it. I think the thing to think about or what the way I've thought about it is a what the way I've thought about it is a what the way I've thought about it is a just because I've succeeded in the past just because I've succeeded in the past just because I've succeeded in the past does not mean I can do it again. Um so I does not mean I can do it again. Um so I does not mean I can do it again. Um so I try not to almost I try to almost let try not to almost I try to almost let try not to almost I try to almost let that let that go and it makes me I think that let that go and it makes me I think that let that go and it makes me I think work harder and focus more on doing the work harder and focus more on doing the work harder and focus more on doing the right things. It's blocking and right things. It's blocking and right things. It's blocking and tackling, right? launching these tackling, right? launching these tackling, right? launching these products. As long as you're not trying products. As long as you're not trying products. As long as you're not trying to launch Facebook or Netflix or or you to launch Facebook or Netflix or or you to launch Facebook or Netflix or or you know Uber or something like you're know Uber or something like you're know Uber or something like you're launching B2B SAS, we have some pretty launching B2B SAS, we have some pretty launching B2B SAS, we have some pretty specific blueprints, guidelines on how specific blueprints, guidelines on how specific blueprints, guidelines on how to get that done. And you still have to to get that done. And you still have to to get that done. And you still have to put in the work. Like it's hard work, put in the work. Like it's hard work, put in the work. Like it's hard work, it's luck and skill. You can't control it's luck and skill. You can't control it's luck and skill. You can't control luck. So you have more skill than you luck. So you have more skill than you luck. So you have more skill than you used to. You probably have more revenue used to. You probably have more revenue used to. You probably have more revenue money in the bank than you used to if money in the bank than you used to if money in the bank than you used to if you've had a win. And you probably have you've had a win. And you probably have you've had a win. And you probably have more experience than you used to. and more experience than you used to. and more experience than you used to. and you still need to put in that hard work. you still need to put in that hard work. you still need to put in that hard work. And I think that's something um I think And I think that's something um I think And I think that's something um I think I I think it's something that's easy to I I think it's something that's easy to I I think it's something that's easy to forget. The other thing is forget. The other thing is forget. The other thing is well a expect it to be a little longer well a expect it to be a little longer well a expect it to be a little longer and a little harder than you know than and a little harder than you know than and a little harder than you know than you want it to be. But also sanity check you want it to be. But also sanity check you want it to be. But also sanity check this. Do you have a co-founder? Do you this. Do you have a co-founder? Do you this. Do you have a co-founder? Do you have a mastermind group? Do you have a have a mastermind group? Do you have a have a mastermind group? Do you have a spouse? Do you have someone who's been spouse? Do you have someone who's been spouse? Do you have someone who's been on your journey with you who can not you on your journey with you who can not you on your journey with you who can not you know blow smoke at you, but who can say know blow smoke at you, but who can say know blow smoke at you, but who can say look this is going to be challenging but look this is going to be challenging but look this is going to be challenging but like I'm going to be here with you.

like I'm going to be here with you. like I'm going to be here with you. you're good at this and the odds of you you're good at this and the odds of you you're good at this and the odds of you succeeding somehow, pivoting and succeeding somehow, pivoting and succeeding somehow, pivoting and figuring it out eventually are really, figuring it out eventually are really, figuring it out eventually are really, really high. When you look at folks like really high. When you look at folks like really high. When you look at folks like Jason Cohen who started multiple Jason Cohen who started multiple Jason Cohen who started multiple startups, um Ruben Gomez, myself, um you startups, um Ruben Gomez, myself, um you startups, um Ruben Gomez, myself, um you know, Heat and Shaw, like you do get know, Heat and Shaw, like you do get know, Heat and Shaw, like you do get better at it as you go. And while it's better at it as you go. And while it's better at it as you go. And while it's still hard every time, I I think that still hard every time, I I think that still hard every time, I I think that it's I think keeping that in mind as a it's I think keeping that in mind as a it's I think keeping that in mind as a healthy fear, but then letting the healthy fear, but then letting the healthy fear, but then letting the anxiety go, knowing that the odds of you anxiety go, knowing that the odds of you anxiety go, knowing that the odds of you succeeding are probably much much much succeeding are probably much much much succeeding are probably much much much higher than they were five years ago higher than they were five years ago higher than they were five years ago when you did your last effort. So, it's when you did your last effort. So, it's when you did your last effort. So, it's a good question. You know, I I say the a good question. You know, I I say the a good question. You know, I I say the what is it majority of being an what is it majority of being an what is it majority of being an entrepreneur is managing your own entrepreneur is managing your own entrepreneur is managing your own psychology. This is exactly point on um psychology. This is exactly point on um psychology. This is exactly point on um to that, you know, to that uh that to that, you know, to that uh that to that, you know, to that uh that topic. So, thanks for that question. topic. So, thanks for that question. topic. So, thanks for that question. Carlos Devon on Microsoft Connect asks, Carlos Devon on Microsoft Connect asks, Carlos Devon on Microsoft Connect asks, "I'm actively picking customer pain for "I'm actively picking customer pain for "I'm actively picking customer pain for my company's segment as opposed to my company's segment as opposed to my company's segment as opposed to competitor pain, and I'll define those competitor pain, and I'll define those competitor pain, and I'll define those in a second. Do you have any general in a second. Do you have any general in a second. Do you have any general observations about SAS for non-technical observations about SAS for non-technical observations about SAS for non-technical customers? Okay, so customer pain is customers? Okay, so customer pain is customers? Okay, so customer pain is where your customers are more where your customers are more where your customers are more challenging to reach. Perhaps there may challenging to reach. Perhaps there may challenging to reach. Perhaps there may be lower tech, so you have to do high be lower tech, so you have to do high be lower tech, so you have to do high touch and a lot of onboarding. they're touch and a lot of onboarding. they're touch and a lot of onboarding. they're probably more effort to support. Think probably more effort to support. Think probably more effort to support. Think of like legal or real estate agents or of like legal or real estate agents or of like legal or real estate agents or um any, you know, a lot of um any, you know, a lot of um any, you know, a lot of brickandmortars where it's just harder brickandmortars where it's just harder brickandmortars where it's just harder to serve those folks than saying serving to serve those folks than saying serving to serve those folks than saying serving developers, designers, and entrepreneurs developers, designers, and entrepreneurs developers, designers, and entrepreneurs who probably going to get your product.

who probably going to get your product. who probably going to get your product. They may be a little more picky, but They may be a little more picky, but They may be a little more picky, but they're going to get the basics of stuff they're going to get the basics of stuff they're going to get the basics of stuff and not going to need nearly as much and not going to need nearly as much and not going to need nearly as much handholding to do it. And then handholding to do it. And then handholding to do it. And then competitor pain is where you enter a competitor pain is where you enter a competitor pain is where you enter a space like email service providers or space like email service providers or space like email service providers or CRM where it's like oh it's a lot of CRM where it's like oh it's a lot of CRM where it's like oh it's a lot of entrepreneurs and technically skilled entrepreneurs and technically skilled entrepreneurs and technically skilled people but good lord are there a lot of people but good lord are there a lot of people but good lord are there a lot of competitors and so the pain is just competitors and so the pain is just competitors and so the pain is just dealing with that you know it's dealing dealing with that you know it's dealing dealing with that you know it's dealing with how many competitors you have. So with how many competitors you have. So with how many competitors you have. So um so Devon has said I'm actively um so Devon has said I'm actively um so Devon has said I'm actively picking customer pain instead of picking customer pain instead of picking customer pain instead of competitor. Do you have any general competitor. Do you have any general competitor. Do you have any general observations about SAS for nontechnical observations about SAS for nontechnical observations about SAS for nontechnical customers? Um, yeah. I think, you know, customers? Um, yeah. I think, you know, customers? Um, yeah. I think, you know, I think it's kind of what I said. We we I think it's kind of what I said. We we I think it's kind of what I said. We we actually fund quite a few of these with actually fund quite a few of these with actually fund quite a few of these with Tiny Seed. Um, ranging from H I'm trying Tiny Seed. Um, ranging from H I'm trying Tiny Seed. Um, ranging from H I'm trying to think like Builder Prime is for home to think like Builder Prime is for home to think like Builder Prime is for home improvement contractors and, uh, um, improvement contractors and, uh, um, improvement contractors and, uh, um, Senior Place is for placement agents who Senior Place is for placement agents who Senior Place is for placement agents who help seniors find assisted living help seniors find assisted living help seniors find assisted living facilities. Um, yeah, there there's a facilities. Um, yeah, there there's a facilities. Um, yeah, there there's a lot and if you go just click through lot and if you go just click through lot and if you go just click through tinyc.com/portfolio, tinyc.com/portfolio, tinyc.com/portfolio, you can see it. So, I'm very bullish on you can see it. So, I'm very bullish on you can see it. So, I'm very bullish on these segments. they just have different these segments. they just have different these segments. they just have different they have different challenges than if they have different challenges than if they have different challenges than if you pick competitor pain and so so here you pick competitor pain and so so here you pick competitor pain and so so here are the some of the challenges I see and are the some of the challenges I see and are the some of the challenges I see and here's the folks that are winning in the here's the folks that are winning in the here's the folks that are winning in the in you know in the the customer pain in you know in the the customer pain in you know in the the customer pain spaces um number one they do hight touch spaces um number one they do hight touch spaces um number one they do hight touch sales especially in the early days like sales especially in the early days like sales especially in the early days like as high touch as you can possibly do as high touch as you can possibly do as high touch as you can possibly do without going crazy and spending you without going crazy and spending you without going crazy and spending you know 40 hours onboarding somebody um know 40 hours onboarding somebody um know 40 hours onboarding somebody um they just they're doing a lot of things they just they're doing a lot of things they just they're doing a lot of things that aren't that don't scale very well that aren't that don't scale very well that aren't that don't scale very well and in fact we have a company who's and in fact we have a company who's and in fact we have a company who's Still, I think to onboard a customer and

Still, I think to onboard a customer and Still, I think to onboard a customer and import all their data, it takes like 8 import all their data, it takes like 8 import all their data, it takes like 8 to 10 hours of dev work and they're but to 10 hours of dev work and they're but to 10 hours of dev work and they're but they're doing tens of thousands a month they're doing tens of thousands a month they're doing tens of thousands a month in MR. So, you would think, well, in MR. So, you would think, well, in MR. So, you would think, well, shouldn't they be past that? And it's shouldn't they be past that? And it's shouldn't they be past that? And it's like, well, no, because they've like, well, no, because they've like, well, no, because they've optimized for customer acquisition, not optimized for customer acquisition, not optimized for customer acquisition, not for optimizing that one piece of it, and for optimizing that one piece of it, and for optimizing that one piece of it, and they're in the process of doing it now they're in the process of doing it now they're in the process of doing it now after they know they have a business after they know they have a business after they know they have a business that they're pretty confident can grow that they're pretty confident can grow that they're pretty confident can grow into seven figures. So that's one thing into seven figures. So that's one thing into seven figures. So that's one thing is like spend a lot of time uh both in is like spend a lot of time uh both in is like spend a lot of time uh both in the sales touch and also in the success the sales touch and also in the success the sales touch and also in the success and onboarding. Another thing is you and onboarding. Another thing is you and onboarding. Another thing is you have to price your product accordingly have to price your product accordingly have to price your product accordingly if you're going to spend that much time. if you're going to spend that much time. if you're going to spend that much time. And so you cannot charge $50 a month um And so you cannot charge $50 a month um And so you cannot charge $50 a month um in these spaces. Now you could say $50 a in these spaces. Now you could say $50 a in these spaces. Now you could say $50 a seat if you think your average company seat if you think your average company seat if you think your average company will have you know four seats or five will have you know four seats or five will have you know four seats or five seats. It's in that low $100 range. Uh, seats. It's in that low $100 range. Uh, seats. It's in that low $100 range. Uh, and I would say two 200 250 a month is and I would say two 200 250 a month is and I would say two 200 250 a month is probably bottom end what I would look probably bottom end what I would look probably bottom end what I would look at. It depends on how much customer pain at. It depends on how much customer pain at. It depends on how much customer pain it is, right? Um, if you're dealing with it is, right? Um, if you're dealing with it is, right? Um, if you're dealing with folks who are really really folks who are really really folks who are really really nontechnical, it may need to be $500 or nontechnical, it may need to be $500 or nontechnical, it may need to be $500 or $1,000 a month. And dealing with folks $1,000 a month. And dealing with folks $1,000 a month. And dealing with folks who are uh, you know, just slightly more who are uh, you know, just slightly more who are uh, you know, just slightly more tech technically savvy, um, that's in tech technically savvy, um, that's in tech technically savvy, um, that's in that 2 to 250. Again, I think that's a that 2 to 250. Again, I think that's a that 2 to 250. Again, I think that's a minimum price point. And if you can't minimum price point. And if you can't minimum price point. And if you can't ask for that, it may be a nonviable ask for that, it may be a nonviable ask for that, it may be a nonviable business, right? Right? So, you have to business, right? Right? So, you have to business, right? Right? So, you have to price it in because of all the time that price it in because of all the time that price it in because of all the time that you are going to have to spend or you're you are going to have to spend or you're you are going to have to spend or you're going to have to hire someone to do it going to have to hire someone to do it going to have to hire someone to do it eventually and you have to be able to eventually and you have to be able to eventually and you have to be able to afford that.

afford that. afford that. Last thing with customer pain is there Last thing with customer pain is there Last thing with customer pain is there does tend to be a lot of word of mouth does tend to be a lot of word of mouth does tend to be a lot of word of mouth in these spaces. Um, and it's it's in in these spaces. Um, and it's it's in in these spaces. Um, and it's it's in and you have to find out where they are and you have to find out where they are and you have to find out where they are because while we in, you know, we hang because while we in, you know, we hang because while we in, you know, we hang out in Microcom Connect, we hang out in out in Microcom Connect, we hang out in out in Microcom Connect, we hang out in our Slack rooms, um, we hang out on hang our Slack rooms, um, we hang out on hang our Slack rooms, um, we hang out on hang out on Twitter, there's a lot of people out on Twitter, there's a lot of people out on Twitter, there's a lot of people that don't hang out in any of those that don't hang out in any of those that don't hang out in any of those spaces and they hang out in old bulletin spaces and they hang out in old bulletin spaces and they hang out in old bulletin board for like old forums. Um, like so board for like old forums. Um, like so board for like old forums. Um, like so like if I were serving silver age comic like if I were serving silver age comic like if I were serving silver age comic book collectors, they're in Facebook book collectors, they're in Facebook book collectors, they're in Facebook groups and they're on on the CGC, which groups and they're on on the CGC, which groups and they're on on the CGC, which is a grading company, forums, they call is a grading company, forums, they call is a grading company, forums, they call them the boards. That's those are the them the boards. That's those are the them the boards. That's those are the two biggest on Instagram now. Those are two biggest on Instagram now. Those are two biggest on Instagram now. Those are the two or three places. And ver versus the two or three places. And ver versus the two or three places. And ver versus if you're serving uh lawyers, then where if you're serving uh lawyers, then where if you're serving uh lawyers, then where are they? I don't actually know. I know are they? I don't actually know. I know are they? I don't actually know. I know that there's a few podcasts they listen that there's a few podcasts they listen that there's a few podcasts they listen to. I know there's a website called The to. I know there's a website called The to. I know there's a website called The Lawyerist who a friend of mine runs. Lawyerist who a friend of mine runs. Lawyerist who a friend of mine runs. It's very popular. Um and then they It's very popular. Um and then they It's very popular. Um and then they probably have some Facebook groups, but probably have some Facebook groups, but probably have some Facebook groups, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know I don't know. I don't know. I don't know I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if they're still in Facebook groups or if they're still in Facebook groups or if they're still in Facebook groups or if they've, you know, migrated. And so if they've, you know, migrated. And so if they've, you know, migrated. And so you have to find those places. And I you have to find those places. And I you have to find those places. And I would get in there early and I would would get in there early and I would would get in there early and I would start to understand those customers start to understand those customers start to understand those customers really well. Word of mouth goes really really well. Word of mouth goes really really well. Word of mouth goes really fast in these spaces because they'll try fast in these spaces because they'll try fast in these spaces because they'll try something new and they'll either rave something new and they'll either rave something new and they'll either rave about it or they'll rant against it. And about it or they'll rant against it. And about it or they'll rant against it. And you want to be present for that. And if you want to be present for that. And if you want to be present for that. And if they rant against it, then you come in they rant against it, then you come in they rant against it, then you come in and you say, um, "Hey, so sorry you had, and you say, um, "Hey, so sorry you had, and you say, um, "Hey, so sorry you had, you know, I'm the founder. So sorry I you know, I'm the founder. So sorry I you know, I'm the founder. So sorry I had that experience. I'm willing to fix had that experience. I'm willing to fix had that experience. I'm willing to fix it. Like we're work in progress and blah it. Like we're work in progress and blah it. Like we're work in progress and blah blah blah." Like you jump in. So those blah blah." Like you jump in. So those blah blah." Like you jump in. So those are I could go on, but you know, we have are I could go on, but you know, we have are I could go on, but you know, we have to have to move on. But those are the to have to move on. But those are the to have to move on. But those are the three off the top of my head kind of of three off the top of my head kind of of three off the top of my head kind of of um elements that I would be or or things um elements that I would be or or things um elements that I would be or or things I would be looking to do for customer

I would be looking to do for customer I would be looking to do for customer pain. Thanks for that question, Devin. pain. Thanks for that question, Devin. pain. Thanks for that question, Devin. All right, reindeer Jiggy from YouTube. All right, reindeer Jiggy from YouTube. All right, reindeer Jiggy from YouTube. If you were starting over today and If you were starting over today and If you were starting over today and trying to find a net invoice to acquire trying to find a net invoice to acquire trying to find a net invoice to acquire and iterate on, where would you look? and iterate on, where would you look? and iterate on, where would you look? Yeah. So, I do you know what you know Yeah. So, I do you know what you know Yeah. So, I do you know what you know what question I really don't like is what question I really don't like is what question I really don't like is when people say this is not this, but when people say this is not this, but when people say this is not this, but when they say if you were starting over when they say if you were starting over when they say if you were starting over today with nothing and none of your today with nothing and none of your today with nothing and none of your experience, none of your network, what experience, none of your network, what experience, none of your network, what would you do? and because I'm just like would you do? and because I'm just like would you do? and because I'm just like probably something very similar to what probably something very similar to what probably something very similar to what I did back then just you know I may need I did back then just you know I may need I did back then just you know I may need to work harder today or something. Um to work harder today or something. Um to work harder today or something. Um but this is not that question. This is but this is not that question. This is but this is not that question. This is like I bought I bought an app for like I bought I bought an app for like I bought I bought an app for $11,000 in 200 I always forget the year. $11,000 in 200 I always forget the year. $11,000 in 200 I always forget the year. I think it was like 2006 if I were to I think it was like 2006 if I were to I think it was like 2006 if I were to guess. Net invoice. It was doing a guess. Net invoice. It was doing a guess. Net invoice. It was doing a couple hundred a month. It was in couple hundred a month. It was in couple hundred a month. It was in shambles. I was told it was in great shambles. I was told it was in great shambles. I was told it was in great shape. It wasn't. I uh rewrote half the shape. It wasn't. I uh rewrote half the shape. It wasn't. I uh rewrote half the codebase. I relaunched it. I marketed it codebase. I relaunched it. I marketed it codebase. I relaunched it. I marketed it and I got it up to between $3 and $5,000 and I got it up to between $3 and $5,000 and I got it up to between $3 and $5,000 a month in revenue. who ultimately um a month in revenue. who ultimately um a month in revenue. who ultimately um before I took on a business partner when before I took on a business partner when before I took on a business partner when I started doing HitTail Drip and then I started doing HitTail Drip and then I started doing HitTail Drip and then eventually just just gave it to him. But eventually just just gave it to him. But eventually just just gave it to him. But these days and back then I looked at these days and back then I looked at these days and back then I looked at some certain sites that basically don't some certain sites that basically don't some certain sites that basically don't even exist anymore. So these days I even exist anymore. So these days I even exist anymore. So these days I would be looking at a couple places. One would be looking at a couple places. One would be looking at a couple places. One I would uh subscribe to Quietite I would uh subscribe to Quietite I would uh subscribe to Quietite Brokerages um buyers list uh FE Brokerages um buyers list uh FE Brokerages um buyers list uh FE International as well and Empire International as well and Empire International as well and Empire Flippers. Those are the three. And I Flippers. Those are the three. And I Flippers. Those are the three. And I would look at micro acquire and there would look at micro acquire and there would look at micro acquire and there are there also there's like 1k projects are there also there's like 1k projects are there also there's like 1k projects and side projects.com. There's a couple and side projects.com. There's a couple and side projects.com. There's a couple really low-end ones where it's like really low-end ones where it's like really low-end ones where it's like $1,000 with no customers. And $1,000 with no customers. And $1,000 with no customers. And personally, personally, personally, I'm I don't know that that's much of a

I'm I don't know that that's much of a I'm I don't know that that's much of a head start, you know, unless you have head start, you know, unless you have head start, you know, unless you have some type of customer base, some type of some type of customer base, some type of some type of customer base, some type of revenue, like has the idea even been revenue, like has the idea even been revenue, like has the idea even been proven? Because the hard part is proving proven? Because the hard part is proving proven? Because the hard part is proving it, not writing the code, right? It's it, not writing the code, right? It's it, not writing the code, right? It's timeconuming to write the code, but the timeconuming to write the code, but the timeconuming to write the code, but the uncertainty is in the customer base. So, uncertainty is in the customer base. So, uncertainty is in the customer base. So, I would personally save up a few more I would personally save up a few more I would personally save up a few more thousand dollars and look for something thousand dollars and look for something thousand dollars and look for something that has at least a bit of traction. I'm that has at least a bit of traction. I'm that has at least a bit of traction. I'm trying to think if there's there's got trying to think if there's there's got trying to think if there's there's got to be another Oh, the I know what the to be another Oh, the I know what the to be another Oh, the I know what the other thing cuz I bought HitTail. I was other thing cuz I bought HitTail. I was other thing cuz I bought HitTail. I was cold emailing. So, I sent like 30 or 30 cold emailing. So, I sent like 30 or 30 cold emailing. So, I sent like 30 or 30 or 40 cold emails and eventually bought or 40 cold emails and eventually bought or 40 cold emails and eventually bought Hitale and I basically looked for apps Hitale and I basically looked for apps Hitale and I basically looked for apps that that didn't look like they were that that didn't look like they were that that didn't look like they were maintained and um was just pitching maintained and um was just pitching maintained and um was just pitching like, "Hey, I'm looking to acquire like, "Hey, I'm looking to acquire like, "Hey, I'm looking to acquire something." So, that that's kind of the something." So, that that's kind of the something." So, that that's kind of the fourth or fifth, I guess, approach uh fourth or fifth, I guess, approach uh fourth or fifth, I guess, approach uh that I'd be thinking about. That's a that I'd be thinking about. That's a that I'd be thinking about. That's a good good question. Reindeer Jiggy Dan good good question. Reindeer Jiggy Dan good good question. Reindeer Jiggy Dan on YouTube asks, "Looking for our first on YouTube asks, "Looking for our first on YouTube asks, "Looking for our first sales hire, where should the balance sales hire, where should the balance sales hire, where should the balance fall between domain knowledge, industry fall between domain knowledge, industry fall between domain knowledge, industry connections, and general sales skills?" connections, and general sales skills?" connections, and general sales skills?" Oo, Oo, Oo, I think I think I think industry connections are the least. I industry connections are the least. I industry connections are the least. I mean, it'd be amazing. It'd be amazing, mean, it'd be amazing. It'd be amazing, mean, it'd be amazing. It'd be amazing, but to to get someone with industry but to to get someone with industry but to to get someone with industry connections, but I that's a nice to connections, but I that's a nice to connections, but I that's a nice to have. I think you almost have to just have. I think you almost have to just have. I think you almost have to just write it off as it would be great if it write it off as it would be great if it write it off as it would be great if it happened. But I think general sales happened. But I think general sales happened. But I think general sales skills is number one. Um because teach skills is number one. Um because teach skills is number one. Um because teach if you're good as a founder and you've if you're good as a founder and you've if you're good as a founder and you've trained your customer success people, trained your customer success people, trained your customer success people, your support people, your developers to your support people, your developers to your support people, your developers to generally understand your domain, you generally understand your domain, you generally understand your domain, you can do that with a good salesperson.

can do that with a good salesperson. can do that with a good salesperson. But can you teach sales skills to But can you teach sales skills to But can you teach sales skills to someone who doesn't have them? I would someone who doesn't have them? I would someone who doesn't have them? I would say it's a lot harder. Right? Right? If say it's a lot harder. Right? Right? If say it's a lot harder. Right? Right? If someone innately is a great developer or someone innately is a great developer or someone innately is a great developer or a salesperson or customer success, you a salesperson or customer success, you a salesperson or customer success, you can teach them. I mean, look, I'm going can teach them. I mean, look, I'm going can teach them. I mean, look, I'm going to be honest. Drip is a complicated to be honest. Drip is a complicated to be honest. Drip is a complicated product. It's amaz It's simple to use. product. It's amaz It's simple to use. product. It's amaz It's simple to use. It's uh, you know, super powerful. But It's uh, you know, super powerful. But It's uh, you know, super powerful. But there is, when I say complicated, I there is, when I say complicated, I there is, when I say complicated, I mean, there's a lot to it. It's very mean, there's a lot to it. It's very mean, there's a lot to it. It's very powerful. I should probably who had and Gmail before and we could who had and Gmail before and we could educate them in a handful of days about educate them in a handful of days about educate them in a handful of days about Drip, how it works, who the customer Drip, how it works, who the customer Drip, how it works, who the customer base is enough that they could start base is enough that they could start base is enough that they could start answering emails that week. And you answering emails that week. And you answering emails that week. And you know, by the time I left Drip, we had know, by the time I left Drip, we had know, by the time I left Drip, we had 12, is that right? 12 or 14 uh customer 12, is that right? 12 or 14 uh customer 12, is that right? 12 or 14 uh customer support people doing live chat and support people doing live chat and support people doing live chat and email. And we had an additional six email. And we had an additional six email. And we had an additional six customer success staff who would customer success staff who would customer success staff who would actually do um zoom call screen shares actually do um zoom call screen shares actually do um zoom call screen shares and also email with like high you know and also email with like high you know and also email with like high you know the VIP or the higherend customers. We the VIP or the higherend customers. We the VIP or the higherend customers. We trained all of those folks. So domain trained all of those folks. So domain trained all of those folks. So domain knowledge while again it's it' be you knowledge while again it's it' be you knowledge while again it's it' be you know when people came over from other know when people came over from other know when people came over from other ESPs yes it was a quick start but that ESPs yes it was a quick start but that ESPs yes it was a quick start but that was just a week of training you know or was just a week of training you know or was just a week of training you know or three to three to five days or a three to three to five days or a three to three to five days or a learning curve of a couple weeks. um learning curve of a couple weeks. um learning curve of a couple weeks. um training someone on sales skills months, training someone on sales skills months, training someone on sales skills months, six months. I mean, someone like me, you six months. I mean, someone like me, you six months. I mean, someone like me, you can never train me on sales skills.

can never train me on sales skills. can never train me on sales skills. Like, I'm never going to be as good as Like, I'm never going to be as good as Like, I'm never going to be as good as someone who, you know, either is someone who, you know, either is someone who, you know, either is naturally uh that, you know, engineered naturally uh that, you know, engineered naturally uh that, you know, engineered towards that or who someone who just has towards that or who someone who just has towards that or who someone who just has learned how to do it. So, that would be learned how to do it. So, that would be learned how to do it. So, that would be my order. Number one, sales skills. my order. Number one, sales skills. my order. Number one, sales skills. Number two, I think domain knowledge. Number two, I think domain knowledge. Number two, I think domain knowledge. Number three, industry connections. It's Number three, industry connections. It's Number three, industry connections. It's like when I'm thinking about, so if I like when I'm thinking about, so if I like when I'm thinking about, so if I was thinking about business development, was thinking about business development, was thinking about business development, someone who's going to do partnerships, someone who's going to do partnerships, someone who's going to do partnerships, industry connections would be really industry connections would be really industry connections would be really high on the list. But for a salesperson, high on the list. But for a salesperson, high on the list. But for a salesperson, I think we should be we should be I think we should be we should be I think we should be we should be bringing in the leads inbound and or bringing in the leads inbound and or bringing in the leads inbound and or doing outbound to bring in, you know, doing outbound to bring in, you know, doing outbound to bring in, you know, prospects for that um salesperson. So, I prospects for that um salesperson. So, I prospects for that um salesperson. So, I don't know that I expect my sales people don't know that I expect my sales people don't know that I expect my sales people to, you know, essentially bring their to, you know, essentially bring their to, you know, essentially bring their own prospects. But thanks for that own prospects. But thanks for that own prospects. But thanks for that question, Dan. I think it's a good one. question, Dan. I think it's a good one. question, Dan. I think it's a good one. David, this might be our last question. David, this might be our last question. David, this might be our last question. We'll see how much time we have left. If We'll see how much time we have left. If We'll see how much time we have left. If you still have a question, do feel free you still have a question, do feel free you still have a question, do feel free to post it and I I may be able to zip to post it and I I may be able to zip to post it and I I may be able to zip through these. David on connect asks, through these. David on connect asks, through these. David on connect asks, "What is the best thing to do if revenue "What is the best thing to do if revenue "What is the best thing to do if revenue has plateaued? Am I doomed?" David be has plateaued? Am I doomed?" David be has plateaued? Am I doomed?" David be chin up, man. No, you're not doomed. Um, chin up, man. No, you're not doomed. Um, chin up, man. No, you're not doomed. Um, so it really depends on why revenue has so it really depends on why revenue has so it really depends on why revenue has plateaued. Usually, it's that you have plateaued. Usually, it's that you have plateaued. Usually, it's that you have churn. Usually, it's that your churn is churn. Usually, it's that your churn is churn. Usually, it's that your churn is high or your your um, you know, new high or your your um, you know, new high or your your um, you know, new trial count. I'll say I'm just going to trial count. I'll say I'm just going to trial count. I'll say I'm just going to assume you have a free trial that your assume you have a free trial that your assume you have a free trial that your new trial count is is too low. Usually new trial count is is too low. Usually new trial count is is too low. Usually you want to be looking ahead. There's a you want to be looking ahead. There's a you want to be looking ahead. There's a pretty simple formula for when am I pretty simple formula for when am I pretty simple formula for when am I going to plateau and I would always be going to plateau and I would always be going to plateau and I would always be calculating that um when I was running calculating that um when I was running calculating that um when I was running SAS apps it because it's just it's SAS apps it because it's just it's SAS apps it because it's just it's simple math right if your churn is this simple math right if your churn is this simple math right if your churn is this your customer base is this large you

your customer base is this large you your customer base is this large you need this many new trials every month to need this many new trials every month to need this many new trials every month to stay flat at this point or you need you stay flat at this point or you need you stay flat at this point or you need you know twice that to keep growing at at x know twice that to keep growing at at x know twice that to keep growing at at x amount and so best thing to do if amount and so best thing to do if amount and so best thing to do if revenue is plateaued is a couple things. revenue is plateaued is a couple things. revenue is plateaued is a couple things. Number one, go to startups for rest of Number one, go to startups for rest of Number one, go to startups for rest of us.com and Google and uh there's a us.com and Google and uh there's a us.com and Google and uh there's a search bar in the upper right. Type in search bar in the upper right. Type in search bar in the upper right. Type in Ruben Gomez G-Z plateau. And he and I Ruben Gomez G-Z plateau. And he and I Ruben Gomez G-Z plateau. And he and I recorded an episode five years ago about recorded an episode five years ago about recorded an episode five years ago about this topic, this exact topic of revenue this topic, this exact topic of revenue this topic, this exact topic of revenue plateauing because of the founders I plateauing because of the founders I plateauing because of the founders I know, he is one of the most thoughtful know, he is one of the most thoughtful know, he is one of the most thoughtful and one of the most knowledgeable about and one of the most knowledgeable about and one of the most knowledgeable about breaking through plateaus. So go listen breaking through plateaus. So go listen breaking through plateaus. So go listen to that. But aside from that, as I said to that. But aside from that, as I said to that. But aside from that, as I said before, turn's too high, not enough before, turn's too high, not enough before, turn's too high, not enough trials, or your um pricing's too low, trials, or your um pricing's too low, trials, or your um pricing's too low, right? These are your three levers. And right? These are your three levers. And right? These are your three levers. And so if you the odds are your pricing's so if you the odds are your pricing's so if you the odds are your pricing's too low anyways, so I would consider too low anyways, so I would consider too low anyways, so I would consider raising prices. Um raising prices. Um raising prices. Um but only well, it it's a really depends but only well, it it's a really depends but only well, it it's a really depends answer. So in general, I would consider answer. So in general, I would consider answer. So in general, I would consider raising prices. However, um if you're raising prices. However, um if you're raising prices. However, um if you're not landing some of these trials because not landing some of these trials because not landing some of these trials because your pricing's because you're not your pricing's because you're not your pricing's because you're not providing the value in the product, then providing the value in the product, then providing the value in the product, then that's not a good time to do it. But um that's not a good time to do it. But um that's not a good time to do it. But um anyway, so pricing is a big lever. I anyway, so pricing is a big lever. I anyway, so pricing is a big lever. I would consider that. Um churn, I would would consider that. Um churn, I would would consider that. Um churn, I would find out why people are churning. Are find out why people are churning. Are find out why people are churning. Are they turning early? Are they turning they turning early? Are they turning they turning early? Are they turning late? Are they never getting because if late? Are they never getting because if late? Are they never getting because if they're never getting onboarded and they're never getting onboarded and they're never getting onboarded and they're turnurning all in the first 60 they're turnurning all in the first 60 they're turnurning all in the first 60 days, then you know you have an days, then you know you have an days, then you know you have an onboarding problem. But if people are onboarding problem. But if people are onboarding problem. But if people are after the first 60 or 90 they are after the first 60 or 90 they are after the first 60 or 90 they are sticking around or they're they're sticking around or they're they're sticking around or they're they're turning after six to 12 months then you turning after six to 12 months then you turning after six to 12 months then you have to ask yourself is this um

have to ask yourself is this um have to ask yourself is this um is this something is it a product that is this something is it a product that is this something is it a product that people don't use long term or am I people don't use long term or am I people don't use long term or am I dropping the ball and people are dropping the ball and people are dropping the ball and people are graduating from this product up right graduating from this product up right graduating from this product up right you have to figure out that reason by you have to figure out that reason by you have to figure out that reason by looking at the numbers so you do want to looking at the numbers so you do want to looking at the numbers so you do want to segment churn by price point and you segment churn by price point and you segment churn by price point and you want to segment churn based on month so want to segment churn based on month so want to segment churn based on month so you have a full grid of it because if you have a full grid of it because if you have a full grid of it because if you just have a number like churn is you just have a number like churn is you just have a number like churn is 10%. That doesn't tell you anything. You 10%. That doesn't tell you anything. You 10%. That doesn't tell you anything. You need to know that in the first 30 days need to know that in the first 30 days need to know that in the first 30 days churn is 15% and then it drops down to churn is 15% and then it drops down to churn is 15% and then it drops down to like 4%. It's like oh we just people are like 4%. It's like oh we just people are like 4%. It's like oh we just people are either using it as a trial or um they're either using it as a trial or um they're either using it as a trial or um they're yeah using it as a trial or they are um yeah using it as a trial or they are um yeah using it as a trial or they are um not getting onboarded. You need to work not getting onboarded. You need to work not getting onboarded. You need to work on that. Last thing I'll say is on that. Last thing I'll say is on that. Last thing I'll say is oh some products really are one-time use oh some products really are one-time use oh some products really are one-time use products and they have enormous churn products and they have enormous churn products and they have enormous churn 20% 25% churn and you just can't get 20% 25% churn and you just can't get 20% 25% churn and you just can't get around it. is like I want to research around it. is like I want to research around it. is like I want to research what products I should sell on you know what products I should sell on you know what products I should sell on you know insert e-commerce platform here on insert e-commerce platform here on insert e-commerce platform here on Amazon. Well, unless you build Amazon. Well, unless you build Amazon. Well, unless you build additional things like rank tracking to additional things like rank tracking to additional things like rank tracking to keep them around, then I'm going to go keep them around, then I'm going to go keep them around, then I'm going to go research and then I'm going to cancel research and then I'm going to cancel research and then I'm going to cancel and that's it. You're going to have and that's it. You're going to have and that's it. You're going to have lifetime value of a month, right? And so lifetime value of a month, right? And so lifetime value of a month, right? And so you have to ask yourself, is that what you have to ask yourself, is that what you have to ask yourself, is that what your product is today? And do you just your product is today? And do you just your product is today? And do you just let it go and and hey, it's plateaued let it go and and hey, it's plateaued let it go and and hey, it's plateaued and I'm all good or um you know, do you and I'm all good or um you know, do you and I'm all good or um you know, do you adjust the product as such? Final thing, adjust the product as such? Final thing, adjust the product as such? Final thing, I know I just said final thing, but I know I just said final thing, but I know I just said final thing, but final thing is I was talking about final thing is I was talking about final thing is I was talking about leads. A lot of people you just don't leads. A lot of people you just don't leads. A lot of people you just don't get enough traffic and get enough traffic and get enough traffic and that's like the number one enough that's like the number one enough that's like the number one enough traffic or enough prospects, you know, traffic or enough prospects, you know, traffic or enough prospects, you know, if you're doing outbound stuff and if you're doing outbound stuff and if you're doing outbound stuff and that's like the number one cause of that's like the number one cause of that's like the number one cause of plateauing that well churn and and then

plateauing that well churn and and then plateauing that well churn and and then that um so it's like try more marketing that um so it's like try more marketing that um so it's like try more marketing approaches, get better at the marketing approaches, get better at the marketing approaches, get better at the marketing approaches you have. Like that's that's approaches you have. Like that's that's approaches you have. Like that's that's what I'd be looking at. So without more what I'd be looking at. So without more what I'd be looking at. So without more context, that's what I got for you, context, that's what I got for you, context, that's what I got for you, David. Thank you. A couple more David. Thank you. A couple more David. Thank you. A couple more questions and we will wrap. Bill on questions and we will wrap. Bill on questions and we will wrap. Bill on Microsoft Connect asks, "I know you've Microsoft Connect asks, "I know you've Microsoft Connect asks, "I know you've touched on this before being a struggle touched on this before being a struggle touched on this before being a struggle when you were in the weeds with drip. when you were in the weeds with drip. when you were in the weeds with drip. What advice do you have for staying What advice do you have for staying What advice do you have for staying positive in spite of frequent fires positive in spite of frequent fires positive in spite of frequent fires caused by platform risk?" Oh, I know caused by platform risk?" Oh, I know caused by platform risk?" Oh, I know that feeling. It is hard to remain that feeling. It is hard to remain that feeling. It is hard to remain positive about the future with positive about the future with positive about the future with platforms, frequent frequent changes, platforms, frequent frequent changes, platforms, frequent frequent changes, and potential for sudden massive and potential for sudden massive and potential for sudden massive changes. It is. And I live in the future changes. It is. And I live in the future changes. It is. And I live in the future like, you know, my wife lives in the like, you know, my wife lives in the like, you know, my wife lives in the present and I live in the future. And I present and I live in the future. And I present and I live in the future. And I know founders, I know some people, you know founders, I know some people, you know founders, I know some people, you know, I have a relative who lives in the know, I have a relative who lives in the know, I have a relative who lives in the past, right? When you live in the future past, right? When you live in the future past, right? When you live in the future and you have platform risk, it is scary. and you have platform risk, it is scary. and you have platform risk, it is scary. Um, so the things you have to ask Um, so the things you have to ask Um, so the things you have to ask yourself is, is this platform risk real? yourself is, is this platform risk real? yourself is, is this platform risk real? Like, have they smoked other uh, you Like, have they smoked other uh, you Like, have they smoked other uh, you know, competitors of yours or, you know, know, competitors of yours or, you know, know, competitors of yours or, you know, do you think that there's a real do you think that there's a real do you think that there's a real possibility that they will. So, you possibility that they will. So, you possibility that they will. So, you know, in that case, then um, you either know, in that case, then um, you either know, in that case, then um, you either have to decide, do I diversify across have to decide, do I diversify across have to decide, do I diversify across multiple platforms? Do I just take this multiple platforms? Do I just take this multiple platforms? Do I just take this risk and live with it? Can I live with risk and live with it? Can I live with risk and live with it? Can I live with it? Or do I sell this this company?

it? Or do I sell this this company? it? Or do I sell this this company? because you can sell companies with because you can sell companies with because you can sell companies with platform risk, they just may be platform risk, they just may be platform risk, they just may be discounted, you know, based on um uh discounted, you know, based on um uh discounted, you know, based on um uh based on what would otherwise be a full based on what would otherwise be a full based on what would otherwise be a full purchase price. But look, if you can get purchase price. But look, if you can get purchase price. But look, if you can get if you're SAS and you can get 5x annual if you're SAS and you can get 5x annual if you're SAS and you can get 5x annual revenue, 6x, and you can take that, even revenue, 6x, and you can take that, even revenue, 6x, and you can take that, even if it's 50 grand, 50 grand to 500 grand, if it's 50 grand, 50 grand to 500 grand, if it's 50 grand, 50 grand to 500 grand, and you can move on to something that and you can move on to something that and you can move on to something that doesn't have platform risk, it might not doesn't have platform risk, it might not doesn't have platform risk, it might not be a bad call. You just have to think be a bad call. You just have to think be a bad call. You just have to think about it. Um, what doesn't help is to about it. Um, what doesn't help is to about it. Um, what doesn't help is to worry about it all the time because you worry about it all the time because you worry about it all the time because you do have to ask yourself, can I control do have to ask yourself, can I control do have to ask yourself, can I control this? The answer is probably not. But this? The answer is probably not. But this? The answer is probably not. But then when I think about that, I actually then when I think about that, I actually then when I think about that, I actually think what platform is it? And can we think what platform is it? And can we think what platform is it? And can we build relationships with people on the build relationships with people on the build relationships with people on the inside there so that we have a little inside there so that we have a little inside there so that we have a little bit of of an inside track like what can bit of of an inside track like what can bit of of an inside track like what can I do to lessen my platform risk? And the I do to lessen my platform risk? And the I do to lessen my platform risk? And the folks who I see who deal well with folks who I see who deal well with folks who I see who deal well with platform risk are kind of good platform risk are kind of good platform risk are kind of good networkers and they start talking networkers and they start talking networkers and they start talking partnership or they connect with um partnership or they connect with um partnership or they connect with um let's say you're on uh Heroku that you let's say you're on uh Heroku that you let's say you're on uh Heroku that you go to Heroku's event and you you know go go to Heroku's event and you you know go go to Heroku's event and you you know go to events where Heroku employees might to events where Heroku employees might to events where Heroku employees might go and you connect with them or you go and you connect with them or you go and you connect with them or you connect with them on Twitter or if you connect with them on Twitter or if you connect with them on Twitter or if you see someone on Indie Hackers or see someone on Indie Hackers or see someone on Indie Hackers or Microsoft connect who works at Heroku Microsoft connect who works at Heroku Microsoft connect who works at Heroku like you make it a point to start like you make it a point to start like you make it a point to start relationships with them and just be like relationships with them and just be like relationships with them and just be like hey we have an app on Heroku we love it.

hey we have an app on Heroku we love it. hey we have an app on Heroku we love it. it it it can help you like build a it it it can help you like build a it it it can help you like build a little bit of immunity. Obviously, it little bit of immunity. Obviously, it little bit of immunity. Obviously, it can't make you 100% immune, but it can can't make you 100% immune, but it can can't make you 100% immune, but it can give you a leg up versus doing nothing. give you a leg up versus doing nothing. give you a leg up versus doing nothing. So, there's a lot there, right? It's So, there's a lot there, right? It's So, there's a lot there, right? It's like, can you first thing is can you do like, can you first thing is can you do like, can you first thing is can you do anything about it? If the answer is yes, anything about it? If the answer is yes, anything about it? If the answer is yes, try to do those things. Um, if you can't try to do those things. Um, if you can't try to do those things. Um, if you can't do anything about it, then you need to do anything about it, then you need to do anything about it, then you need to stop worrying about it. And if you can't stop worrying about it. And if you can't stop worrying about it. And if you can't stop worrying about it, then you either stop worrying about it, then you either stop worrying about it, then you either diversify. So, you fix it or you may diversify. So, you fix it or you may diversify. So, you fix it or you may need to move on. And that's what I did need to move on. And that's what I did need to move on. And that's what I did with HitTail actually, right? about with HitTail actually, right? about with HitTail actually, right? about every 12 to 18 months, Google would just every 12 to 18 months, Google would just every 12 to 18 months, Google would just it was so annoying. I was working on it was so annoying. I was working on it was so annoying. I was working on drip. It's like trying to run this team drip. It's like trying to run this team drip. It's like trying to run this team and like Hitail's being being decimated and like Hitail's being being decimated and like Hitail's being being decimated by Google. And so, um, that was when I I by Google. And so, um, that was when I I by Google. And so, um, that was when I I just sold it. And I actually sold it for just sold it. And I actually sold it for just sold it. And I actually sold it for not a great multiple because it was not a great multiple because it was not a great multiple because it was declining at the time, but I did I just declining at the time, but I did I just declining at the time, but I did I just didn't have the time and focus to do it. didn't have the time and focus to do it. didn't have the time and focus to do it. So, hope that's helpful, Bill. It's a So, hope that's helpful, Bill. It's a So, hope that's helpful, Bill. It's a really good question. Last question for really good question. Last question for really good question. Last question for today and then we'll wrap. Pacidu on today and then we'll wrap. Pacidu on today and then we'll wrap. Pacidu on YouTube asks, "How do I find a good SAS YouTube asks, "How do I find a good SAS YouTube asks, "How do I find a good SAS idea? Is e-commerce a good niche?" idea? Is e-commerce a good niche?" idea? Is e-commerce a good niche?" There's a bunch of good niches. There's There's a bunch of good niches. There's There's a bunch of good niches. There's I you know I I venture to say there are I you know I I venture to say there are I you know I I venture to say there are no bad niches. There are only niches no bad niches. There are only niches no bad niches. There are only niches where people don't charge enough money where people don't charge enough money where people don't charge enough money or um they don't understand the or um they don't understand the or um they don't understand the customer's pain. So I think ruling a a customer's pain. So I think ruling a a customer's pain. So I think ruling a a niche out as good or bad I don't think niche out as good or bad I don't think niche out as good or bad I don't think is super helpful. How to find a good SAS is super helpful. How to find a good SAS is super helpful. How to find a good SAS idea. So idea. So idea. So most state of independence asks most most state of independence asks most most state of independence asks most people find a problem and they find a people find a problem and they find a people find a problem and they find a problem that either they are problem that either they are problem that either they are experiencing and want to fix with experiencing and want to fix with experiencing and want to fix with software that their spouse significant software that their spouse significant software that their spouse significant other is experiencing that a colleague other is experiencing that a colleague other is experiencing that a colleague at work is experiencing or that they at work is experiencing or that they at work is experiencing or that they experience as a customer of another

experience as a customer of another experience as a customer of another platform. And so back to an example I platform. And so back to an example I platform. And so back to an example I gave earlier Jonathan founder of Builder gave earlier Jonathan founder of Builder gave earlier Jonathan founder of Builder Prime which is CRM software for home Prime which is CRM software for home Prime which is CRM software for home improvement contractors. improvement contractors. improvement contractors. He had a home improvement job done on He had a home improvement job done on He had a home improvement job done on his house and he hated the communication his house and he hated the communication his house and he hated the communication so much that he said I'm going to build so much that he said I'm going to build so much that he said I'm going to build software to do this. Um, and that is software to do this. Um, and that is software to do this. Um, and that is often the way people do it. Now, scratch often the way people do it. Now, scratch often the way people do it. Now, scratch your own itch has been something around your own itch has been something around your own itch has been something around for years of well, you should only solve for years of well, you should only solve for years of well, you should only solve problems that you're an expert on. I problems that you're an expert on. I problems that you're an expert on. I don't believe that. I I believe it gives don't believe that. I I believe it gives don't believe that. I I believe it gives you a leg up, but it's not binary of you a leg up, but it's not binary of you a leg up, but it's not binary of well, you're going to succeed if you do well, you're going to succeed if you do well, you're going to succeed if you do and you're not if you don't, right? But and you're not if you don't, right? But and you're not if you don't, right? But I do think that um I keep an idea I do think that um I keep an idea I do think that um I keep an idea notebook of like problems that I see notebook of like problems that I see notebook of like problems that I see kind of in in the world and if I were kind of in in the world and if I were kind of in in the world and if I were ever going to start another SAS, you ever going to start another SAS, you ever going to start another SAS, you know, maybe I would solve um them. The know, maybe I would solve um them. The know, maybe I would solve um them. The there you know there is some common there you know there is some common there you know there is some common advice out there that it's like go advice out there that it's like go advice out there that it's like go research in Facebook groups and look for research in Facebook groups and look for research in Facebook groups and look for pains and I think that's cool and pains and I think that's cool and pains and I think that's cool and interesting. I think that's neat to interesting. I think that's neat to interesting. I think that's neat to validate things. What we've seen in validate things. What we've seen in validate things. What we've seen in state of independence ass is it's like state of independence ass is it's like state of independence ass is it's like 5% of companies that launch do that find 5% of companies that launch do that find 5% of companies that launch do that find it that way and the overwhelming it that way and the overwhelming it that way and the overwhelming majority are actually finding it through majority are actually finding it through majority are actually finding it through themselves their network at work seeing themselves their network at work seeing themselves their network at work seeing it in the wild having conversations. I it in the wild having conversations. I it in the wild having conversations. I would depends on where you are in the stairst depends on where you are in the stairst step like I should step like I should step like I should should you even start a sassite think should you even start a sassite think should you even start a sassite think about go the stair step to bootstrapping about go the stair step to bootstrapping about go the stair step to bootstrapping and think about maybe I'm just going to and think about maybe I'm just going to and think about maybe I'm just going to look at all these platforms and in fact look at all these platforms and in fact look at all these platforms and in fact where is there's a list of a bunch of

where is there's a list of a bunch of where is there's a list of a bunch of marketplaces I'm going to find it for marketplaces I'm going to find it for marketplaces I'm going to find it for you it is rocketgeems.comblog and search that for SAS marketplaces and and search that for SAS marketplaces and there are 68 marketplaces, app stores, there are 68 marketplaces, app stores, there are 68 marketplaces, app stores, things like Shopify, Salesforce, things like Shopify, Salesforce, things like Shopify, Salesforce, HubSpot, Pipe Drive, Zoho, CRM, Zenesk, HubSpot, Pipe Drive, Zoho, CRM, Zenesk, HubSpot, Pipe Drive, Zoho, CRM, Zenesk, on and on and on. Do you have any on and on and on. Do you have any on and on and on. Do you have any familiarity with any of those or a familiarity with any of those or a familiarity with any of those or a desire to go into any of them? Because desire to go into any of them? Because desire to go into any of them? Because to me, that's a that's an easier way to to me, that's a that's an easier way to to me, that's a that's an easier way to build a SAS because the distribution is build a SAS because the distribution is build a SAS because the distribution is built in and built in and built in and um um um yeah, I'll link it up in the show notes yeah, I'll link it up in the show notes yeah, I'll link it up in the show notes here, but the the distribution is built here, but the the distribution is built here, but the the distribution is built in. And so in. And so in. And so that's where you don't have to learn all that's where you don't have to learn all that's where you don't have to learn all at once and you can build you still have at once and you can build you still have at once and you can build you still have platform risk but you can build some platform risk but you can build some platform risk but you can build some small things. You get the quick wins. small things. You get the quick wins. small things. You get the quick wins. You can uh build enough revenue to quit You can uh build enough revenue to quit You can uh build enough revenue to quit your day job and then you go and start your day job and then you go and start your day job and then you go and start the harder SAS. Like you shouldn't go the harder SAS. Like you shouldn't go the harder SAS. Like you shouldn't go and try to start drip. Like drip is a is and try to start drip. Like drip is a is and try to start drip. Like drip is a is a good it was a good SAS idea and it a good it was a good SAS idea and it a good it was a good SAS idea and it still is but I really wouldn't advise still is but I really wouldn't advise still is but I really wouldn't advise you to do that unless you have what I you to do that unless you have what I you to do that unless you have what I had which was an audience experience had which was an audience experience had which was an audience experience confidence and $200,000 being thrown off confidence and $200,000 being thrown off confidence and $200,000 being thrown off of a prior app. You know, it all depend of a prior app. You know, it all depend of a prior app. You know, it all depend like good SAS idea really depends on like good SAS idea really depends on like good SAS idea really depends on your stage. And so I'd be looking at your stage. And so I'd be looking at your stage. And so I'd be looking at simpler ideas including things that I simpler ideas including things that I simpler ideas including things that I could solve with no code. Bubble.io air could solve with no code. Bubble.io air could solve with no code. Bubble.io air table. Um I think those are some pretty table. Um I think those are some pretty table. Um I think those are some pretty great ideas today. And with that we are great ideas today. And with that we are great ideas today. And with that we are going to move towards wrapping up. I going to move towards wrapping up. I going to move towards wrapping up. I went a little long but those were really went a little long but those were really went a little long but those were really good questions. Thanks so much for good questions. Thanks so much for good questions. Thanks so much for showing up today. A couple housekeeping showing up today. A couple housekeeping showing up today. A couple housekeeping items. Microcom remote is in just about items. Microcom remote is in just about items. Microcom remote is in just about a week. It is microconf.com/reote

a week. It is microconf.com/reote a week. It is microconf.com/reote May 3rd through the 5th. It's from 11:00 May 3rd through the 5th. It's from 11:00 May 3rd through the 5th. It's from 11:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Eastern time. We're a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Eastern time. We're a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Eastern time. We're diving into all things money. It's going diving into all things money. It's going diving into all things money. It's going to be super fun. And the venue that to be super fun. And the venue that to be super fun. And the venue that Xander has picked out is pretty amazing. Xander has picked out is pretty amazing. Xander has picked out is pretty amazing. Um, it's a 3D walkthrough venue where Um, it's a 3D walkthrough venue where Um, it's a 3D walkthrough venue where it's almost like a first-person, you it's almost like a first-person, you it's almost like a first-person, you know, interaction where you're walking know, interaction where you're walking know, interaction where you're walking around. It's really cool. and the the around. It's really cool. and the the around. It's really cool. and the the topics ranging from uh you know topics ranging from uh you know topics ranging from uh you know investing as a founder to um what do we investing as a founder to um what do we investing as a founder to um what do we have sales to like uh have sales to like uh have sales to like uh prediction promotion what is it it's prediction promotion what is it it's prediction promotion what is it it's looking forward it's uh oh my god looking forward it's uh oh my god looking forward it's uh oh my god forecasting it's like forecasting your forecasting it's like forecasting your forecasting it's like forecasting your SAS revenue anyway it's going to be SAS revenue anyway it's going to be SAS revenue anyway it's going to be great in addition we have microcom local great in addition we have microcom local great in addition we have microcom local in London uh in about two and a half in London uh in about two and a half in London uh in about two and a half weeks it's in miday and that's weeks it's in miday and that's weeks it's in miday and that's microcom.comlocal-london from 10 a.m. to 5:00 PM on um May May from 10 a.m. to 5:00 PM on um May May something. Go to that URL because I something. Go to that URL because I something. Go to that URL because I forget the URL or I forget the the exact forget the URL or I forget the the exact forget the URL or I forget the the exact date. And thank you to hey.com and date. And thank you to hey.com and date. And thank you to hey.com and Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners once again in 2022. They've been with us once again in 2022. They've been with us once again in 2022. They've been with us since 2020 and they make everything we since 2020 and they make everything we since 2020 and they make everything we do just a little easier. Thanks again do just a little easier. Thanks again do just a little easier. Thanks again for showing up today and uh your for showing up today and uh your for showing up today and uh your questions were awesome and I look questions were awesome and I look questions were awesome and I look forward to connecting again hopefully at forward to connecting again hopefully at forward to connecting again hopefully at Microcom Remote and or Microcom London.

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