The Stair Step Approach In Action

and we are live. Welcome back to Micro and we are live. Welcome back to Micro Comp on Air. This is a show where we Comp on Air. This is a show where we Comp on Air. This is a show where we live stream every other Wednesday at 1 live stream every other Wednesday at 1 live stream every other Wednesday at 1 PM Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific. And we do PM Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific. And we do PM Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific. And we do it for about 30 minutes. We cover topics it for about 30 minutes. We cover topics it for about 30 minutes. We cover topics related to building and growing related to building and growing related to building and growing ambitious SAS startups. These are the ambitious SAS startups. These are the ambitious SAS startups. These are the startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to maintain healthy purpose and allow us to maintain healthy purpose and allow us to maintain healthy relationships while also being relationships while also being relationships while also being incredibly motivated and excited about incredibly motivated and excited about incredibly motivated and excited about what we are working on every day. So, what we are working on every day. So, what we are working on every day. So, thanks so much for joining me again this thanks so much for joining me again this thanks so much for joining me again this week. I have a great guest who's going week. I have a great guest who's going week. I have a great guest who's going to be joining me in a minute, Corey to be joining me in a minute, Corey to be joining me in a minute, Corey Haynes. You may have heard of him uh as Haynes. You may have heard of him uh as Haynes. You may have heard of him uh as the founder of Swipe Files or you've the founder of Swipe Files or you've the founder of Swipe Files or you've probably seen him on the Twitters. If probably seen him on the Twitters. If probably seen him on the Twitters. If you have any questions for Corey Haynes you have any questions for Corey Haynes you have any questions for Corey Haynes about marketing, about growth, about about marketing, about growth, about about marketing, about growth, about he's built a pretty incredible business he's built a pretty incredible business he's built a pretty incredible business um on, you know, essentially an email um on, you know, essentially an email um on, you know, essentially an email newsletter. Feel free to pipe them into newsletter. Feel free to pipe them into newsletter. Feel free to pipe them into the Microcom onair channel in Microcom the Microcom onair channel in Microcom the Microcom onair channel in Microcom Connect or you can put them as uh in the Connect or you can put them as uh in the Connect or you can put them as uh in the chat uh YouTube chat microcom.com chat uh YouTube chat microcom.com chat uh YouTube chat microcom.com if you're not already in there. We have if you're not already in there. We have if you're not already in there. We have almost 3,000 founders and aspiring almost 3,000 founders and aspiring almost 3,000 founders and aspiring bootstrapped SAS founders and it's free bootstrapped SAS founders and it's free bootstrapped SAS founders and it's free and it's moderated and the community is and it's moderated and the community is and it's moderated and the community is it's just really a great place to be to it's just really a great place to be to it's just really a great place to be to hang out and to get advice and give hang out and to get advice and give hang out and to get advice and give advice. So with that, we're going to be advice. So with that, we're going to be advice. So with that, we're going to be talking today about the stairstep talking today about the stairstep talking today about the stairstep approach in action. And again, my guest approach in action. And again, my guest approach in action. And again, my guest is Corey Haynes on Twitter. He is Corey is Corey Haynes on Twitter. He is Corey is Corey Haynes on Twitter. He is Corey Haynes COO. He's the founder of Swipe Haynes COO. He's the founder of Swipe Haynes COO. He's the founder of Swipe Files. He's been a SAS marketer and a Files. He's been a SAS marketer and a Files. He's been a SAS marketer and a growth expert for many years. He growth expert for many years. He growth expert for many years. He currently is the marketing lead for currently is the marketing lead for currently is the marketing lead for Derek Rhyr's Savvy Cal who, you know,

Derek Rhyr's Savvy Cal who, you know, Derek Rhyr's Savvy Cal who, you know, I've mentioned I've mentioned Savvy Cal I've mentioned I've mentioned Savvy Cal I've mentioned I've mentioned Savvy Cal uh many times on the show. He was the uh many times on the show. He was the uh many times on the show. He was the first marketing hire at Bare Metrics and first marketing hire at Bare Metrics and first marketing hire at Bare Metrics and Cordial. He's an investor and adviser to Cordial. He's an investor and adviser to Cordial. He's an investor and adviser to more than 10 B2B SAS companies. So, join more than 10 B2B SAS companies. So, join more than 10 B2B SAS companies. So, join me in welcoming Corey Haynes to the me in welcoming Corey Haynes to the me in welcoming Corey Haynes to the show. show. show. Sir, how's it going? There he is. Sir, how's it going? There he is. Sir, how's it going? There he is. Good. Good. Good. A round of applause. a nice warm micro A round of applause. a nice warm micro A round of applause. a nice warm micro welcome as I say as I say a microc um welcome as I say as I say a microc um welcome as I say as I say a microc um don't worry there are people watching don't worry there are people watching don't worry there are people watching you know even though it's just it's just you know even though it's just it's just you know even though it's just it's just you and I it's uh of course good energy you and I it's uh of course good energy you and I it's uh of course good energy cool so yeah let's um cool so yeah let's um cool so yeah let's um I want to talk about a couple things I want to talk about a couple things I want to talk about a couple things today we questions will start pouring in today we questions will start pouring in today we questions will start pouring in and we'll um interrupt when those do and we'll um interrupt when those do and we'll um interrupt when those do but I like this idea of you know you've but I like this idea of you know you've but I like this idea of you know you've kind of stairstepped your way up I think kind of stairstepped your way up I think kind of stairstepped your way up I think most folks listening know the stairstep most folks listening know the stairstep most folks listening know the stairstep approach to bootstrapping I've talked approach to bootstrapping I've talked approach to bootstrapping I've talked about starting small starting simple and about starting small starting simple and about starting small starting simple and um then building on top of that as you um then building on top of that as you um then building on top of that as you gain experience, as you gain revenue, as gain experience, as you gain revenue, as gain experience, as you gain revenue, as you gain the confidence, all these you gain the confidence, all these you gain the confidence, all these things. And so if it feels like swipe things. And so if it feels like swipe things. And so if it feels like swipe files may, you know, on its own be a files may, you know, on its own be a files may, you know, on its own be a stair step in action, oftentimes I talk stair step in action, oftentimes I talk stair step in action, oftentimes I talk about building one small product early about building one small product early about building one small product early on in an ecosystem like Shopify or on in an ecosystem like Shopify or on in an ecosystem like Shopify or Heroku or WordPress and then acquire Heroku or WordPress and then acquire Heroku or WordPress and then acquire usually you can't make a full-time usually you can't make a full-time usually you can't make a full-time living off of those and then oftentimes living off of those and then oftentimes living off of those and then oftentimes you get two or three of those. Hey, now you get two or three of those. Hey, now you get two or three of those. Hey, now I buy out my time and now I have the I buy out my time and now I have the I buy out my time and now I have the freedom to kind of work on whatever I freedom to kind of work on whatever I freedom to kind of work on whatever I want, which in my world usually is want, which in my world usually is want, which in my world usually is bootstrapping or mostly bootstrapping a bootstrapping or mostly bootstrapping a bootstrapping or mostly bootstrapping a SAS company. But you've done it a little SAS company. But you've done it a little SAS company. But you've done it a little differently and I think it's uh you know differently and I think it's uh you know differently and I think it's uh you know equally um viable approach. I think to equally um viable approach. I think to equally um viable approach. I think to start let's talk about swipe files. So start let's talk about swipe files. So start let's talk about swipe files. So swipe files.com if folks want to check swipe files.com if folks want to check swipe files.com if folks want to check it out. Can you tell us I can try to

it out. Can you tell us I can try to it out. Can you tell us I can try to describe it but there's a lot to it and describe it but there's a lot to it and describe it but there's a lot to it and I just want to make sure that you you I just want to make sure that you you I just want to make sure that you you cover it so folks understand what it is. cover it so folks understand what it is. cover it so folks understand what it is. Yeah, absolutely. So swipe files is on Yeah, absolutely. So swipe files is on Yeah, absolutely. So swipe files is on the front end uh what people get for the front end uh what people get for the front end uh what people get for free is a newsletter that helps you with free is a newsletter that helps you with free is a newsletter that helps you with SAS marketing. So I share all sorts of SAS marketing. So I share all sorts of SAS marketing. So I share all sorts of case studies and tactics and stories case studies and tactics and stories case studies and tactics and stories from my experiences. Uh and then the from my experiences. Uh and then the from my experiences. Uh and then the back end is a membership a product uh back end is a membership a product uh back end is a membership a product uh which is essentially a community a which is essentially a community a which is essentially a community a collection of courses. I do live office collection of courses. I do live office collection of courses. I do live office hours and then access to me for all hours and then access to me for all hours and then access to me for all things SAS marketing and growth to help things SAS marketing and growth to help things SAS marketing and growth to help you with your business. Um since it's you with your business. Um since it's you with your business. Um since it's what I've sort of known and breathed and what I've sort of known and breathed and what I've sort of known and breathed and and done for the last couple of years. and done for the last couple of years. and done for the last couple of years. Uh now I just get to do that forever and Uh now I just get to do that forever and Uh now I just get to do that forever and uh there's a direct access to me uh uh there's a direct access to me uh uh there's a direct access to me uh through all that. through all that. through all that. Not a bad not a bad living. And so Not a bad not a bad living. And so Not a bad not a bad living. And so you're pretty public about numbers. You you're pretty public about numbers. You you're pretty public about numbers. You have on the homepage that there are have on the homepage that there are have on the homepage that there are almost 7,400 SAS founders and marketers almost 7,400 SAS founders and marketers almost 7,400 SAS founders and marketers on the free list. Hey Pablo. Um you and on the free list. Hey Pablo. Um you and on the free list. Hey Pablo. Um you and then when I click on the membership link then when I click on the membership link then when I click on the membership link uh you have your MR down at the bottom uh you have your MR down at the bottom uh you have your MR down at the bottom of that page. And I think you and I were of that page. And I think you and I were of that page. And I think you and I were just talking offline before we started just talking offline before we started just talking offline before we started that that MR is a little out of date. Do that that MR is a little out of date. Do that that MR is a little out of date. Do you want to tell folks how much you're you want to tell folks how much you're you want to tell folks how much you're making from swipe files?

making from swipe files? making from swipe files? Yeah, so the MRR right there is now Yeah, so the MRR right there is now Yeah, so the MRR right there is now today. I need to update it. Uh we're today. I need to update it. Uh we're today. I need to update it. Uh we're just talking about how it's make.com, just talking about how it's make.com, just talking about how it's make.com, but I need to update a formula in there. but I need to update a formula in there. but I need to update a formula in there. Didn't get around to it before this Didn't get around to it before this Didn't get around to it before this interview, but hovers around 5,000 to interview, but hovers around 5,000 to interview, but hovers around 5,000 to 5,500 uh a month. So, Mr. uh there's 5,500 uh a month. So, Mr. uh there's 5,500 uh a month. So, Mr. uh there's also other revenue from sponsorships, also other revenue from sponsorships, also other revenue from sponsorships, which is about equally as much. And then which is about equally as much. And then which is about equally as much. And then there's also uh affiliates. And I'll do there's also uh affiliates. And I'll do there's also uh affiliates. And I'll do sort of some random consulting stuff sort of some random consulting stuff sort of some random consulting stuff here and there. Uh there used to be like here and there. Uh there used to be like here and there. Uh there used to be like a coaching component which I since kind a coaching component which I since kind a coaching component which I since kind of ramped down because I figured out I'm of ramped down because I figured out I'm of ramped down because I figured out I'm I'm actually not much of a coach. Not a I'm actually not much of a coach. Not a I'm actually not much of a coach. Not a huge uh fit for my strengths, but um huge uh fit for my strengths, but um huge uh fit for my strengths, but um altogether it does around 120,000 a year altogether it does around 120,000 a year altogether it does around 120,000 a year uh total. uh total. uh total. Good for you. And so has that allowed Good for you. And so has that allowed Good for you. And so has that allowed you I mean that's a full-time living in you I mean that's a full-time living in you I mean that's a full-time living in most places in the world. I know you're most places in the world. I know you're most places in the world. I know you're in a little more expensive place than in a little more expensive place than in a little more expensive place than many of us living in California, but many of us living in California, but many of us living in California, but would that allow you to essentially go would that allow you to essentially go would that allow you to essentially go full-time and, you know, not have to full-time and, you know, not have to full-time and, you know, not have to work a day job? Yeah, I mean as of work a day job? Yeah, I mean as of work a day job? Yeah, I mean as of literally two months ago in December I literally two months ago in December I literally two months ago in December I think is when I hit sort of default think is when I hit sort of default think is when I hit sort of default alive. Uh there are expenses in there alive. Uh there are expenses in there alive. Uh there are expenses in there and there's taxes and all that jazz and and there's taxes and all that jazz and and there's taxes and all that jazz and so it's still pretty much like ramen so it's still pretty much like ramen so it's still pretty much like ramen profitable for San Diego, California profitable for San Diego, California profitable for San Diego, California which is a high cost living area.

which is a high cost living area. which is a high cost living area. Um and you know account for vacations Um and you know account for vacations Um and you know account for vacations and upgrades and things like that. So and upgrades and things like that. So and upgrades and things like that. So but it does unlock my time like I can but it does unlock my time like I can but it does unlock my time like I can say that it's default life and that if I say that it's default life and that if I say that it's default life and that if I really wanted to or needed to swipe really wanted to or needed to swipe really wanted to or needed to swipe house could be like the sole source of house could be like the sole source of house could be like the sole source of income. Uh the only challenge with that income. Uh the only challenge with that income. Uh the only challenge with that of course is cash flow. And so it es and of course is cash flow. And so it es and of course is cash flow. And so it es and flows and some months it'll be great and flows and some months it'll be great and flows and some months it'll be great and there's 105 grand coming through the there's 105 grand coming through the there's 105 grand coming through the door. Other months there's two or three door. Other months there's two or three door. Other months there's two or three thousand and it's like oh that's weird. thousand and it's like oh that's weird. thousand and it's like oh that's weird. But it's just a you know uh the But it's just a you know uh the But it's just a you know uh the difference in billing schedules, right? difference in billing schedules, right? difference in billing schedules, right? And when people sign up and how many new And when people sign up and how many new And when people sign up and how many new people come through the door that month. people come through the door that month. people come through the door that month. But uh yeah, unlocks my time um and pays But uh yeah, unlocks my time um and pays But uh yeah, unlocks my time um and pays for my living. for my living. for my living. Yeah, that's great. And I I would also Yeah, that's great. And I I would also Yeah, that's great. And I I would also venture to say that I think it will be venture to say that I think it will be venture to say that I think it will be to your benefit to continue to do things to your benefit to continue to do things to your benefit to continue to do things like you're doing with Derek on Savvy like you're doing with Derek on Savvy like you're doing with Derek on Savvy Cow because it keeps you close to the Cow because it keeps you close to the Cow because it keeps you close to the metal. And you know, I have to do this metal. And you know, I have to do this metal. And you know, I have to do this with Tiny Seed, right? I'm no longer a with Tiny Seed, right? I'm no longer a with Tiny Seed, right? I'm no longer a founder of a SAS company because I sold founder of a SAS company because I sold founder of a SAS company because I sold Drip six years ago now. And I absolutely Drip six years ago now. And I absolutely Drip six years ago now. And I absolutely felt myself drifting away from that in felt myself drifting away from that in felt myself drifting away from that in internal deep founder knowledge until I internal deep founder knowledge until I internal deep founder knowledge until I started, you know, investing and started, you know, investing and started, you know, investing and advising in in the tiny seat companies.

advising in in the tiny seat companies. advising in in the tiny seat companies. And I feel like Savvy Cal or you know And I feel like Savvy Cal or you know And I feel like Savvy Cal or you know whatever whatever gigs you pick up as a whatever whatever gigs you pick up as a whatever whatever gigs you pick up as a SAS marketer I think would would will SAS marketer I think would would will SAS marketer I think would would will keep your chops up if that makes sense. keep your chops up if that makes sense. keep your chops up if that makes sense. Oh yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean my Oh yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean my Oh yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean my relationship with Derek has been uh has relationship with Derek has been uh has relationship with Derek has been uh has been awesome and just the opportunity to been awesome and just the opportunity to been awesome and just the opportunity to be able to work with him. I sort of see be able to work with him. I sort of see be able to work with him. I sort of see Savvy a little bit selfishly as kind of Savvy a little bit selfishly as kind of Savvy a little bit selfishly as kind of my my playground where I get to test my my playground where I get to test my my playground where I get to test different things that I talk about or different things that I talk about or different things that I talk about or that I see other people do and now I get that I see other people do and now I get that I see other people do and now I get to actually go put it into uh into to actually go put it into uh into to actually go put it into uh into action and then use that as a case study action and then use that as a case study action and then use that as a case study to share later for for Swipy Files and to share later for for Swipy Files and to share later for for Swipy Files and for members and uh maybe as a newsletter for members and uh maybe as a newsletter for members and uh maybe as a newsletter edition later on or just something I can edition later on or just something I can edition later on or just something I can use as material for what I'm teaching or use as material for what I'm teaching or use as material for what I'm teaching or building a new course around. And so um building a new course around. And so um building a new course around. And so um it's yeah it's absolutely and it's also it's yeah it's absolutely and it's also it's yeah it's absolutely and it's also just great practice for me speaking just great practice for me speaking just great practice for me speaking about the the stairstep approach for about the the stairstep approach for about the the stairstep approach for eventually when I get to assess on my eventually when I get to assess on my eventually when I get to assess on my own then I have a lot of at bats a lot own then I have a lot of at bats a lot own then I have a lot of at bats a lot of reps um a lot of things that I can of reps um a lot of things that I can of reps um a lot of things that I can draw from even from like a year ago I draw from even from like a year ago I draw from even from like a year ago I would say that my my sort of experience would say that my my sort of experience would say that my my sort of experience and like the way that I see SAS and like the way that I see SAS and like the way that I see SAS marketing and growing SAS businesses you marketing and growing SAS businesses you marketing and growing SAS businesses you know every day kind of progresses and know every day kind of progresses and know every day kind of progresses and you get 1% better. Uh but then like you get 1% better. Uh but then like you get 1% better. Uh but then like looking back now from a year I was like looking back now from a year I was like looking back now from a year I was like man I didn't know any anything right man I didn't know any anything right man I didn't know any anything right it's like always you look back a year it's like always you look back a year it's like always you look back a year like I was so naive I was so ignorant like I was so naive I was so ignorant like I was so naive I was so ignorant but um now I get to take all these and but um now I get to take all these and but um now I get to take all these and put them into practice for myself and so put them into practice for myself and so put them into practice for myself and so today working on a couple of small SAS today working on a couple of small SAS today working on a couple of small SAS side projects sort of been always my side projects sort of been always my side projects sort of been always my endgame of course with the server endgame of course with the server endgame of course with the server approach sort of in mind of okay each approach sort of in mind of okay each approach sort of in mind of okay each one of these things is going to be one of these things is going to be one of these things is going to be something that will eventually help me something that will eventually help me something that will eventually help me get to you know the the last step or the

get to you know the the last step or the get to you know the the last step or the top of the ladder which for me is uh top of the ladder which for me is uh top of the ladder which for me is uh being in SAS full-time being in SAS full-time being in SAS full-time and this this is a great way to do it. and this this is a great way to do it. and this this is a great way to do it. So, let's talk I think we have like So, let's talk I think we have like So, let's talk I think we have like three or four steps that you took along three or four steps that you took along three or four steps that you took along the way. Um and I have some notes here the way. Um and I have some notes here the way. Um and I have some notes here that I think you and producer Xander that I think you and producer Xander that I think you and producer Xander were were talking about that'll kind of were were talking about that'll kind of were were talking about that'll kind of lead us through. But was the first thing lead us through. But was the first thing lead us through. But was the first thing that you did was creating a couple of that you did was creating a couple of that you did was creating a couple of courses to kind of encapsulate your your courses to kind of encapsulate your your courses to kind of encapsulate your your marketing knowledge? marketing knowledge? marketing knowledge? Yeah. So, that was kind of my first uh Yeah. So, that was kind of my first uh Yeah. So, that was kind of my first uh my first app. Actually, the very first my first app. Actually, the very first my first app. Actually, the very first one was Hey Marketers, which is the job one was Hey Marketers, which is the job one was Hey Marketers, which is the job board, which funnily enough, I actually board, which funnily enough, I actually board, which funnily enough, I actually reacquired after I sold the majority reacquired after I sold the majority reacquired after I sold the majority stake of it, uh, in November of 2020, I stake of it, uh, in November of 2020, I stake of it, uh, in November of 2020, I think it was. Um, and so the job board think it was. Um, and so the job board think it was. Um, and so the job board was kind of one, I wouldn't recommend was kind of one, I wouldn't recommend was kind of one, I wouldn't recommend that be people's first step, uh, per se, that be people's first step, uh, per se, that be people's first step, uh, per se, because because because the challenge that I figured out very the challenge that I figured out very the challenge that I figured out very quickly was that it's you're doing two quickly was that it's you're doing two quickly was that it's you're doing two products and you're doing two marketing, products and you're doing two marketing, products and you're doing two marketing, uh, for each side of the marketplace. So uh, for each side of the marketplace. So uh, for each side of the marketplace. So for the companies hiring and then for for the companies hiring and then for for the companies hiring and then for the people looking for jobs. Um and the people looking for jobs. Um and the people looking for jobs. Um and that's actually why I ended up selling that's actually why I ended up selling that's actually why I ended up selling it. Reacquiring was a whole different it. Reacquiring was a whole different it. Reacquiring was a whole different story cuz I was in a different place and story cuz I was in a different place and story cuz I was in a different place and actually could kind of reinccorporate it actually could kind of reinccorporate it actually could kind of reinccorporate it back into the Swifiles brand and back into the Swifiles brand and back into the Swifiles brand and umbrella and I sort of never stopped umbrella and I sort of never stopped umbrella and I sort of never stopped doing a lot of the uh helping with doing a lot of the uh helping with doing a lot of the uh helping with recruiting and helping match make uh recruiting and helping match make uh recruiting and helping match make uh opportunities for marketing roles. But opportunities for marketing roles. But opportunities for marketing roles. But that was the first atbat that I have. Uh that was the first atbat that I have. Uh that was the first atbat that I have. Uh but yeah, the first I would say like but yeah, the first I would say like but yeah, the first I would say like step that I took was creating those step that I took was creating those step that I took was creating those courses. So, I first created um mental courses. So, I first created um mental courses. So, I first created um mental models for marketing and again that was models for marketing and again that was models for marketing and again that was a very like it was just with my very a very like it was just with my very a very like it was just with my very meager at the time, you know, 1,00

meager at the time, you know, 1,00 meager at the time, you know, 1,00 people uh 1,000 follower uh Twitter list people uh 1,000 follower uh Twitter list people uh 1,000 follower uh Twitter list and um it was one channel, one product, and um it was one channel, one product, and um it was one channel, one product, a one-time sale. Let's just see what I a one-time sale. Let's just see what I a one-time sale. Let's just see what I can do with this. Uh and I was actually can do with this. Uh and I was actually can do with this. Uh and I was actually I mean that was kind of a life-changing I mean that was kind of a life-changing I mean that was kind of a life-changing moment for me, especially with that moment for me, especially with that moment for me, especially with that first one because I had very low first one because I had very low first one because I had very low expectations of all right, I just need expectations of all right, I just need expectations of all right, I just need to get something out there. It might be to get something out there. It might be to get something out there. It might be a slow burn. I'll just, you know, a slow burn. I'll just, you know, a slow burn. I'll just, you know, experiment. experiment. experiment. And when launching, within the first And when launching, within the first And when launching, within the first week, it had made $10,000. And I was week, it had made $10,000. And I was week, it had made $10,000. And I was like, whoa, this is this is crazy. This like, whoa, this is this is crazy. This like, whoa, this is this is crazy. This is real. This is real money. You know, is real. This is real money. You know, is real. This is real money. You know, and showed my wife and that inspired a and showed my wife and that inspired a and showed my wife and that inspired a lot of confidence with her and sort of lot of confidence with her and sort of lot of confidence with her and sort of just taught me too like, oh yeah, I can just taught me too like, oh yeah, I can just taught me too like, oh yeah, I can I can do this for myself or like there's I can do this for myself or like there's I can do this for myself or like there's a lot more things that I can do. It kind a lot more things that I can do. It kind a lot more things that I can do. It kind of opened my eyes because your marketer of opened my eyes because your marketer of opened my eyes because your marketer was just making a couple hundred bucks a was just making a couple hundred bucks a was just making a couple hundred bucks a month and it was doing okay, but it was month and it was doing okay, but it was month and it was doing okay, but it was kind of a struggle and it was uh a grind kind of a struggle and it was uh a grind kind of a struggle and it was uh a grind in a lot of ways. This was different. It in a lot of ways. This was different. It in a lot of ways. This was different. It was with an existing audience. I already was with an existing audience. I already was with an existing audience. I already had a one-time sale, something that was had a one-time sale, something that was had a one-time sale, something that was very near and dear to my heart that I very near and dear to my heart that I very near and dear to my heart that I could talk about all day long. And um so could talk about all day long. And um so could talk about all day long. And um so then I created another one, refactoring then I created another one, refactoring then I created another one, refactoring growth, which is now the five factors of growth, which is now the five factors of growth, which is now the five factors of growth, just to make things a little bit growth, just to make things a little bit growth, just to make things a little bit more descriptive. Um, and same deal, you more descriptive. Um, and same deal, you more descriptive. Um, and same deal, you know, within the first week about 15 know, within the first week about 15 know, within the first week about 15 grand in revenue. And then both of those grand in revenue. And then both of those grand in revenue. And then both of those combined, I was like, I think there's I combined, I was like, I think there's I combined, I was like, I think there's I can do more of these like info products, can do more of these like info products, can do more of these like info products, um, things that really help the type of um, things that really help the type of um, things that really help the type of people I want to serve, which are SAS people I want to serve, which are SAS people I want to serve, which are SAS founders and marketers. Um, but also founders and marketers. Um, but also founders and marketers. Um, but also since I can't code and I'm not a since I can't code and I'm not a since I can't code and I'm not a programmer, not a designer, those sort programmer, not a designer, those sort programmer, not a designer, those sort of like those are the only options I can of like those are the only options I can of like those are the only options I can have, right? Uh, again, like you said, have, right? Uh, again, like you said, have, right? Uh, again, like you said, I'm not going to go build a Shopify app.

I'm not going to go build a Shopify app. I'm not going to go build a Shopify app. I'm not going to go build a little I'm not going to go build a little I'm not going to go build a little Chrome extension because I can't. So, Chrome extension because I can't. So, Chrome extension because I can't. So, I'm just going to do with what I can uh I'm just going to do with what I can uh I'm just going to do with what I can uh do the most with what I can and build do the most with what I can and build do the most with what I can and build info products. info products. info products. Yep. And that's I I believe I'm going to Yep. And that's I I believe I'm going to Yep. And that's I I believe I'm going to the blog my blog post right now. Yes. It the blog my blog post right now. Yes. It the blog my blog post right now. Yes. It says one predict. Oh, no. It's I a lot says one predict. Oh, no. It's I a lot says one predict. Oh, no. It's I a lot of software. But in some of the of software. But in some of the of software. But in some of the instances when I talk about the instances when I talk about the instances when I talk about the stairstep approach I specifically call stairstep approach I specifically call stairstep approach I specifically call out you can do you could write a book, out you can do you could write a book, out you can do you could write a book, you can write an ebook, you can do a you can write an ebook, you can do a you can write an ebook, you can do a video course, you can do you know audio, video course, you can do you know audio, video course, you can do you know audio, you can do WordPress, Shopify, Heroku, you can do WordPress, Shopify, Heroku, you can do WordPress, Shopify, Heroku, you know. So, some of it's software and you know. So, some of it's software and you know. So, some of it's software and some of it's not. Um, I believe I've some of it's not. Um, I believe I've some of it's not. Um, I believe I've updated the the post itself to be more updated the the post itself to be more updated the the post itself to be more focused on software just because that's focused on software just because that's focused on software just because that's really, you know, I'm really all in on really, you know, I'm really all in on really, you know, I'm really all in on SAS uh at the moment. But, um, so I want SAS uh at the moment. But, um, so I want SAS uh at the moment. But, um, so I want to hear next. So, that that was your to hear next. So, that that was your to hear next. So, that that was your first step then is these courses these first step then is these courses these first step then is these courses these one it's kind of a one-time big push. one it's kind of a one-time big push. one it's kind of a one-time big push. Hey, 10 15 grand and then it kind of Hey, 10 15 grand and then it kind of Hey, 10 15 grand and then it kind of trickles out and it does because I've trickles out and it does because I've trickles out and it does because I've done courses too and they're amazing. done courses too and they're amazing. done courses too and they're amazing. And then longer term it it's always like And then longer term it it's always like And then longer term it it's always like I got to I'm on a hamster wheel now. I I got to I'm on a hamster wheel now. I I got to I'm on a hamster wheel now. I got to keep creating courses. And so got to keep creating courses. And so got to keep creating courses. And so we're going to we have some questions I we're going to we have some questions I we're going to we have some questions I want to jump to and then I want to come want to jump to and then I want to come want to jump to and then I want to come back to your story and find out okay back to your story and find out okay back to your story and find out okay how'd you get you know because now how'd you get you know because now how'd you get you know because now you're you're talking Mr about swipe you're you're talking Mr about swipe you're you're talking Mr about swipe files. So somewhere you made a couple files. So somewhere you made a couple files. So somewhere you made a couple steps there. Uh first question is from steps there. Uh first question is from steps there. Uh first question is from Pablo on YouTube and he says you know Pablo on YouTube and he says you know Pablo on YouTube and he says you know now that you're wiser you said you know now that you're wiser you said you know now that you're wiser you said you know you get getting 1% smarter uh every day you get getting 1% smarter uh every day you get getting 1% smarter uh every day in essence. He says are there SAS ideas in essence. He says are there SAS ideas in essence. He says are there SAS ideas that you wouldn't delve into or that you that you wouldn't delve into or that you that you wouldn't delve into or that you wouldn't tackle now that you know what wouldn't tackle now that you know what wouldn't tackle now that you know what you know?

you know? you know? Um I think my Um I think my Um I think my two marketplace two of marketplace for two marketplace two of marketplace for two marketplace two of marketplace for me. Yeah, me. Yeah, me. Yeah, totally. I think that's sort of a given. totally. I think that's sort of a given. totally. I think that's sort of a given. Um on the product and the marketing Um on the product and the marketing Um on the product and the marketing side, I'll speak to both of those. Uh side, I'll speak to both of those. Uh side, I'll speak to both of those. Uh for the product side, again, I think for the product side, again, I think for the product side, again, I think that yeah, you should know what you're that yeah, you should know what you're that yeah, you should know what you're getting yourself into like do you have getting yourself into like do you have getting yourself into like do you have some sort of expertise or can you do you some sort of expertise or can you do you some sort of expertise or can you do you feel the pain personally? But also I feel the pain personally? But also I feel the pain personally? But also I think there are some markets like you've think there are some markets like you've think there are some markets like you've talked about Rob. I'm just basically talked about Rob. I'm just basically talked about Rob. I'm just basically just going to recitate other things just going to recitate other things just going to recitate other things you've said is um there are some product you've said is um there are some product you've said is um there are some product categories especially that just like categories especially that just like categories especially that just like they need VC and there I personally I they need VC and there I personally I they need VC and there I personally I don't want to take any VC. I'm not like don't want to take any VC. I'm not like don't want to take any VC. I'm not like antie but just for me and my background antie but just for me and my background antie but just for me and my background my goals I want to go bootstrapped or my goals I want to go bootstrapped or my goals I want to go bootstrapped or sort of very lean and fund strapping. Um sort of very lean and fund strapping. Um sort of very lean and fund strapping. Um and so think about the product itself. and so think about the product itself. and so think about the product itself. what are the things that um sort of what are the things that um sort of what are the things that um sort of price you out and avoiding the things price you out and avoiding the things price you out and avoiding the things that you know are too big of a a bite that you know are too big of a a bite that you know are too big of a a bite for you and um maybe that are just like for you and um maybe that are just like for you and um maybe that are just like the wrong category if you're building a the wrong category if you're building a the wrong category if you're building a bootstrap SAS business on the marketing bootstrap SAS business on the marketing bootstrap SAS business on the marketing side especially too the way I think side especially too the way I think side especially too the way I think about it is um what are the channels about it is um what are the channels about it is um what are the channels that can grow and grow this business that can grow and grow this business that can grow and grow this business from the get- go can I scope that out from the get- go can I scope that out from the get- go can I scope that out beforehand are there a lot of unknowns beforehand are there a lot of unknowns beforehand are there a lot of unknowns what are the channels um I think what are the channels um I think what are the channels um I think especially too like for me I'm not super especially too like for me I'm not super especially too like for me I'm not super interested in growing a SAS business interested in growing a SAS business interested in growing a SAS business primarily through sales. I'm an primarily through sales. I'm an primarily through sales. I'm an introvert. I'm a marketer. Um I like introvert. I'm a marketer. Um I like introvert. I'm a marketer. Um I like things that scale and that can be reused things that scale and that can be reused things that scale and that can be reused and that are sort of async. Um meetings and that are sort of async. Um meetings and that are sort of async. Um meetings and just talking with people and like a and just talking with people and like a and just talking with people and like a sales function which is very monotonous sales function which is very monotonous sales function which is very monotonous or repetitive would just be soul sucking or repetitive would just be soul sucking or repetitive would just be soul sucking for me. I'm not saying it's bad. It's for me. I'm not saying it's bad. It's for me. I'm not saying it's bad. It's right for a lot of other people. And right for a lot of other people. And right for a lot of other people. And again, some SAS products and the

again, some SAS products and the again, some SAS products and the customers that you sell to will require customers that you sell to will require customers that you sell to will require a very heavy sales function and sales a very heavy sales function and sales a very heavy sales function and sales motion. So I wouldn't go into a SAS motion. So I wouldn't go into a SAS motion. So I wouldn't go into a SAS business that would require that to be business that would require that to be business that would require that to be the primary one. And of course, you're the primary one. And of course, you're the primary one. And of course, you're going to have like some inbound sales. going to have like some inbound sales. going to have like some inbound sales. And in the early days, you kind of just And in the early days, you kind of just And in the early days, you kind of just want to like scrape and claw your way to want to like scrape and claw your way to want to like scrape and claw your way to every extra dollar and every customer every extra dollar and every customer every extra dollar and every customer that you can get. And so, you want to do that you can get. And so, you want to do that you can get. And so, you want to do some sales and, you know, mix some sales some sales and, you know, mix some sales some sales and, you know, mix some sales with like customer development with like customer development with like customer development essentially early on. But today, I essentially early on. But today, I essentially early on. But today, I wouldn't do a SAS business that, you wouldn't do a SAS business that, you wouldn't do a SAS business that, you know, is outside of like a product know, is outside of like a product know, is outside of like a product category of um that would require VC or category of um that would require VC or category of um that would require VC or just outside of like my expertise. And I just outside of like my expertise. And I just outside of like my expertise. And I also wouldn't do one that would require also wouldn't do one that would require also wouldn't do one that would require a marketing channel or a sales channel a marketing channel or a sales channel a marketing channel or a sales channel that I'm not comfortable with or uh that that I'm not comfortable with or uh that that I'm not comfortable with or uh that doesn't suit sort of what I'd like to doesn't suit sort of what I'd like to doesn't suit sort of what I'd like to do. do. do. Yeah. And I I think those those are Yeah. And I I think those those are Yeah. And I I think those those are great answers and I always struggle with great answers and I always struggle with great answers and I always struggle with this question because I can give some this question because I can give some this question because I can give some general ones of like well you know maybe general ones of like well you know maybe general ones of like well you know maybe don't go B TOC or like be a proumer is don't go B TOC or like be a proumer is don't go B TOC or like be a proumer is going to have a high churn and all going to have a high churn and all going to have a high churn and all that's true but I often come back to that's true but I often come back to that's true but I often come back to like there's a lot of it that's personal like there's a lot of it that's personal like there's a lot of it that's personal like you personally don't want to do a like you personally don't want to do a like you personally don't want to do a salesdriven org even if um you know salesdriven org even if um you know salesdriven org even if um you know salesdriven orgs can grow really quickly salesdriven orgs can grow really quickly salesdriven orgs can grow really quickly but for you that it's not interesting but for you that it's not interesting but for you that it's not interesting right and so for for me similarly like right and so for for me similarly like right and so for for me similarly like if I were to launch another SAS I if I were to launch another SAS I if I were to launch another SAS I wouldn't want to work like a customer wouldn't want to work like a customer wouldn't want to work like a customer group that I wasn't super fired up to group that I wasn't super fired up to group that I wasn't super fired up to work with. So that there's a reason that work with. So that there's a reason that work with. So that there's a reason that I run tiny seed and micro startups for I run tiny seed and micro startups for I run tiny seed and micro startups for rest of us because I love hanging around rest of us because I love hanging around rest of us because I love hanging around ambitious founders. I personally would ambitious founders. I personally would ambitious founders. I personally would struggle to start some of like we've struggle to start some of like we've struggle to start some of like we've funded companies in with Tiny Seed that funded companies in with Tiny Seed that funded companies in with Tiny Seed that are like um selling to home improvement are like um selling to home improvement are like um selling to home improvement contractors or electrical contractors contractors or electrical contractors contractors or electrical contractors and it's like that's cool. I was an and it's like that's cool. I was an and it's like that's cool. I was an electrician for a while but I don't like

electrician for a while but I don't like electrician for a while but I don't like I personally don't have an affinity to I personally don't have an affinity to I personally don't have an affinity to that market and I would thus get bored that market and I would thus get bored that market and I would thus get bored with the business personally at this with the business personally at this with the business personally at this point you know. Um, and let's we have point you know. Um, and let's we have point you know. Um, and let's we have another question uh from Spencer another question uh from Spencer another question uh from Spencer Microcom Connect. He says, "Corey, did Microcom Connect. He says, "Corey, did Microcom Connect. He says, "Corey, did you ever work a full-time job? Where did you ever work a full-time job? Where did you ever work a full-time job? Where did you acquire your marketing skills?" you acquire your marketing skills?" you acquire your marketing skills?" Yeah, so my first full-time gig was with Yeah, so my first full-time gig was with Yeah, so my first full-time gig was with Cordial was the first marketing hire Cordial was the first marketing hire Cordial was the first marketing hire there and sort of worked myself up um as there and sort of worked myself up um as there and sort of worked myself up um as an intern all the way to full-time hire an intern all the way to full-time hire an intern all the way to full-time hire and then all the way to a content and then all the way to a content and then all the way to a content marketing manager. Um and then uh my marketing manager. Um and then uh my marketing manager. Um and then uh my second gig was with Parametrics. Uh second gig was with Parametrics. Uh second gig was with Parametrics. Uh those are both again playgrounds for me. those are both again playgrounds for me. those are both again playgrounds for me. Uh sort of say I was paid to learn being Uh sort of say I was paid to learn being Uh sort of say I was paid to learn being the first-time marketing hire. I think the first-time marketing hire. I think the first-time marketing hire. I think especially you're given a lot of freedom especially you're given a lot of freedom especially you're given a lot of freedom and autonomy. You can make mistakes. Uh and autonomy. You can make mistakes. Uh and autonomy. You can make mistakes. Uh you can test things out. You're going to you can test things out. You're going to you can test things out. You're going to have like a a broad swath of skills that have like a a broad swath of skills that have like a a broad swath of skills that you have to acquire and just things you have to acquire and just things you have to acquire and just things you're going to have to tackle in you're going to have to tackle in you're going to have to tackle in general. Whereas if I were to start with general. Whereas if I were to start with general. Whereas if I were to start with like a uh an Airbnb or a Salesforce, like a uh an Airbnb or a Salesforce, like a uh an Airbnb or a Salesforce, you're going to be hyper specialized, you're going to be hyper specialized, you're going to be hyper specialized, right? and you're just like going to be right? and you're just like going to be right? and you're just like going to be very very in in your lane, you know, to very very in in your lane, you know, to very very in in your lane, you know, to use corporate speak is you're only going use corporate speak is you're only going use corporate speak is you're only going to be doing a very small subset of to be doing a very small subset of to be doing a very small subset of skills and responsibilities. Um, and so skills and responsibilities. Um, and so skills and responsibilities. Um, and so I think just being able to work at uh I think just being able to work at uh I think just being able to work at uh startups, being an early marketing hire, startups, being an early marketing hire, startups, being an early marketing hire, and also just being like more of a a and also just being like more of a a and also just being like more of a a generalist and in a general generalist generalist and in a general generalist generalist and in a general generalist position allowed me to um well really position allowed me to um well really position allowed me to um well really just to not be like a a jack of all just to not be like a a jack of all just to not be like a a jack of all trades, master of none, but really to be trades, master of none, but really to be trades, master of none, but really to be a jack of all trades and then like a a jack of all trades and then like a a jack of all trades and then like a master of a couple of things and to master of a couple of things and to master of a couple of things and to figure out what I actually did like to figure out what I actually did like to figure out what I actually did like to do. Even when I started at Cordial, uh I

do. Even when I started at Cordial, uh I do. Even when I started at Cordial, uh I started as an intern, they were just started as an intern, they were just started as an intern, they were just throwing stuff left and right at me throwing stuff left and right at me throwing stuff left and right at me like, "Hey, we need to we need to test like, "Hey, we need to we need to test like, "Hey, we need to we need to test some LinkedIn ads and we need to sponsor some LinkedIn ads and we need to sponsor some LinkedIn ads and we need to sponsor this conference and we're going to host this conference and we're going to host this conference and we're going to host a cocktail party up in Santa Monica and a cocktail party up in Santa Monica and a cocktail party up in Santa Monica and how do we need to drive people over how do we need to drive people over how do we need to drive people over there?" And I just like figure it out. there?" And I just like figure it out. there?" And I just like figure it out. And I also figured out very quickly the And I also figured out very quickly the And I also figured out very quickly the things that I don't like doing. like things that I don't like doing. like things that I don't like doing. like events to me are the bane of my events to me are the bane of my events to me are the bane of my existence and it's just all the things I existence and it's just all the things I existence and it's just all the things I don't like about being detail- oriented don't like about being detail- oriented don't like about being detail- oriented and uh everything being very time bound and uh everything being very time bound and uh everything being very time bound and on a schedule and a deadline and um and on a schedule and a deadline and um and on a schedule and a deadline and um but I figured out other things like I but I figured out other things like I but I figured out other things like I really love content I really love SEO I really love content I really love SEO I really love content I really love SEO I really love performance marketing um I really love performance marketing um I really love performance marketing um I really love co-arketing and partnerships really love co-arketing and partnerships really love co-arketing and partnerships and so being a generalist I was able to and so being a generalist I was able to and so being a generalist I was able to also figure out what I don't like to do also figure out what I don't like to do also figure out what I don't like to do um but I also had the the affordance um um but I also had the the affordance um um but I also had the the affordance um I would say the you know the generosity I would say the you know the generosity I would say the you know the generosity of managers just to be able to kind of of managers just to be able to kind of of managers just to be able to kind of go and test and build a broad swath of go and test and build a broad swath of go and test and build a broad swath of skills. skills. skills. Getting paid to learn is awesome. That's Getting paid to learn is awesome. That's Getting paid to learn is awesome. That's those are great roles. Um yeah, those are great roles. Um yeah, those are great roles. Um yeah, I tell like aspiring founders or folks I tell like aspiring founders or folks I tell like aspiring founders or folks who say, "How can I learn to program or who say, "How can I learn to program or who say, "How can I learn to program or how can I learn to to market?" Right? I how can I learn to to market?" Right? I how can I learn to to market?" Right? I say try to find a job where at a small say try to find a job where at a small say try to find a job where at a small company where you have a lot of autonomy company where you have a lot of autonomy company where you have a lot of autonomy because if you go to a Fortune 1000 because if you go to a Fortune 1000 because if you go to a Fortune 1000 company and do marketing, you're going company and do marketing, you're going company and do marketing, you're going to do one thing and you're going to do a to do one thing and you're going to do a to do one thing and you're going to do a shitload of it. you know, you're going shitload of it. you know, you're going shitload of it. you know, you're going to write a lot of content and not you're to write a lot of content and not you're to write a lot of content and not you're not going to edit content, you're not not going to edit content, you're not not going to edit content, you're not going to strategize what content. You're going to strategize what content. You're going to strategize what content. You're going to be kind of handed an assignment going to be kind of handed an assignment going to be kind of handed an assignment and you can do that over and over. If and you can do that over and over. If and you can do that over and over. If you're doing pay-per-click, Google ads, you're doing pay-per-click, Google ads, you're doing pay-per-click, Google ads, that's all you're going to do. You're that's all you're going to do. You're that's all you're going to do. You're going to go kneedeep in that, which is going to go kneedeep in that, which is going to go kneedeep in that, which is that's not bad, but you don't get the that's not bad, but you don't get the that's not bad, but you don't get the exposure to find out what you like, what exposure to find out what you like, what exposure to find out what you like, what you don't like. Um, so I want to get

you don't like. Um, so I want to get you don't like. Um, so I want to get back to your story, it looks like. Yeah. back to your story, it looks like. Yeah. back to your story, it looks like. Yeah. All right. So, cool. So, no more All right. So, cool. So, no more All right. So, cool. So, no more questions right now, folks. If you have questions right now, folks. If you have questions right now, folks. If you have more questions for Corey, please do post more questions for Corey, please do post more questions for Corey, please do post them uh to YouTube or Microsoft Connect. them uh to YouTube or Microsoft Connect. them uh to YouTube or Microsoft Connect. So step one of the stair step for you So step one of the stair step for you So step one of the stair step for you was basically uh building these courses was basically uh building these courses was basically uh building these courses this onetime revenue and then step two this onetime revenue and then step two this onetime revenue and then step two was what got you your first thousand was what got you your first thousand was what got you your first thousand email subscribers. So you started email subscribers. So you started email subscribers. So you started writing tearowns of landing pages, writing tearowns of landing pages, writing tearowns of landing pages, emails and ads. You want to tell us a emails and ads. You want to tell us a emails and ads. You want to tell us a little about that? little about that? little about that? Yeah. So uh the next project kind of Yeah. So uh the next project kind of Yeah. So uh the next project kind of just going one after the other trying to just going one after the other trying to just going one after the other trying to get my reps in from mental models for get my reps in from mental models for get my reps in from mental models for marketing to the five hacks of growth. marketing to the five hacks of growth. marketing to the five hacks of growth. Uh then I was like well I want to have Uh then I was like well I want to have Uh then I was like well I want to have something now that has some sort of something now that has some sort of something now that has some sort of recurring revenue. So, I still knew kind recurring revenue. So, I still knew kind recurring revenue. So, I still knew kind of like trying to go up to the next of like trying to go up to the next of like trying to go up to the next step. I knew there was probably still step. I knew there was probably still step. I knew there was probably still going to be like one channelish, but I going to be like one channelish, but I going to be like one channelish, but I also want to diversify away from just also want to diversify away from just also want to diversify away from just being Twitter and also have like a more being Twitter and also have like a more being Twitter and also have like a more owned channel, which I talk a lot about owned channel, which I talk a lot about owned channel, which I talk a lot about these days. Uh, which is like, you know, these days. Uh, which is like, you know, these days. Uh, which is like, you know, an email list is probably the most an email list is probably the most an email list is probably the most valuable thing uh the most valuable valuable thing uh the most valuable valuable thing uh the most valuable marketing asset you can have. Um, but marketing asset you can have. Um, but marketing asset you can have. Um, but also wanted something with a recurring also wanted something with a recurring also wanted something with a recurring sale. So, not just a onetime sale, but sale. So, not just a onetime sale, but sale. So, not just a onetime sale, but also recurring revenue. Um, at that also recurring revenue. Um, at that also recurring revenue. Um, at that time, I think that was uh, you know, time, I think that was uh, you know, time, I think that was uh, you know, January, February of 2021.

January, February of 2021. January, February of 2021. Um, actually, no, that was that was Um, actually, no, that was that was Um, actually, no, that was that was 2020. Um, right in the middle of the 2020. Um, right in the middle of the 2020. Um, right in the middle of the pandemic. I also wanted to just, you pandemic. I also wanted to just, you pandemic. I also wanted to just, you never know what was going to happen never know what was going to happen never know what was going to happen during the pandemic. So, I also just during the pandemic. So, I also just during the pandemic. So, I also just wanted to like get something out there wanted to like get something out there wanted to like get something out there just to have another uh kind of just to have another uh kind of just to have another uh kind of diversify, another income stream. Um, diversify, another income stream. Um, diversify, another income stream. Um, but that was when newsletters and but that was when newsletters and but that was when newsletters and communities were really taking off. So, communities were really taking off. So, communities were really taking off. So, I was like, I think why don't I'm going I was like, I think why don't I'm going I was like, I think why don't I'm going to try to take a couple stabs here. I'm to try to take a couple stabs here. I'm to try to take a couple stabs here. I'm going to start with a newsletter, later going to start with a newsletter, later going to start with a newsletter, later get to a community. So, I started doing get to a community. So, I started doing get to a community. So, I started doing these kind of weekly tearowns of landing these kind of weekly tearowns of landing these kind of weekly tearowns of landing pages, ads, emails. Um, mainly a lot of pages, ads, emails. Um, mainly a lot of pages, ads, emails. Um, mainly a lot of SAS companies, but some other things SAS companies, but some other things SAS companies, but some other things kind of, you know, put in there. Not kind of, you know, put in there. Not kind of, you know, put in there. Not trying to think too much about like trying to think too much about like trying to think too much about like what's my overall strategy here. More what's my overall strategy here. More what's my overall strategy here. More just trying to get the reps in and do just trying to get the reps in and do just trying to get the reps in and do these weekly tear downs. So, I got the these weekly tear downs. So, I got the these weekly tear downs. So, I got the first thousand subscribers that way. I first thousand subscribers that way. I first thousand subscribers that way. I think I ended up doing about 42 think I ended up doing about 42 think I ended up doing about 42 consecutively uh week after week. So, consecutively uh week after week. So, consecutively uh week after week. So, almost a full year of doing those almost a full year of doing those almost a full year of doing those tearowns. Um and then I started a tearowns. Um and then I started a tearowns. Um and then I started a community for marketers um or just community for marketers um or just community for marketers um or just around marketing in general. Uh I was around marketing in general. Uh I was around marketing in general. Uh I was one of the early users of circle which one of the early users of circle which one of the early users of circle which is a common platform now used for is a common platform now used for is a common platform now used for communities. communities. communities. Um and that was allowed me to get like Um and that was allowed me to get like Um and that was allowed me to get like the first hundred customers like the first hundred customers like the first hundred customers like recurring um you know members recurring um you know members recurring um you know members essentially subscript really essentially subscript really essentially subscript really subscriptions right uh and my first kind subscriptions right uh and my first kind subscriptions right uh and my first kind of taste at recurring revenue.

of taste at recurring revenue. of taste at recurring revenue. Very nice. And I'm just about to do step Very nice. And I'm just about to do step Very nice. And I'm just about to do step three and we got another question. So three and we got another question. So three and we got another question. So this is great. Will uh on microcom this is great. Will uh on microcom this is great. Will uh on microcom connect he says I feel that a lot of connect he says I feel that a lot of connect he says I feel that a lot of times I come across case studies of times I come across case studies of times I come across case studies of startups selling to other startups or startups selling to other startups or startups selling to other startups or the old course build course builder the old course build course builder the old course build course builder marketing a course on creating and marketing a course on creating and marketing a course on creating and marketing a course. I like to say marketing a course. I like to say marketing a course. I like to say teaching people how to make money online teaching people how to make money online teaching people how to make money online by teaching people how to make money by teaching people how to make money by teaching people how to make money online by you know that thing. But online by you know that thing. But online by you know that thing. But Will's question is, "What advice would Will's question is, "What advice would Will's question is, "What advice would you have to someone who is a loan you have to someone who is a loan you have to someone who is a loan marketer for a small insurance agency or marketer for a small insurance agency or marketer for a small insurance agency or a company that makes legal software?" a company that makes legal software?" a company that makes legal software?" Basically, marketing to companies that Basically, marketing to companies that Basically, marketing to companies that aren't buying on Twitter or aren't as aren't buying on Twitter or aren't as aren't buying on Twitter or aren't as active online. active online. active online. Well, this gets pretty kind of in the Well, this gets pretty kind of in the Well, this gets pretty kind of in the weeds on marketing strategy. Uh, of weeds on marketing strategy. Uh, of weeds on marketing strategy. Uh, of course, there's no one-sizefits-all. to course, there's no one-sizefits-all. to course, there's no one-sizefits-all. to be as prescriptive as possible. Really, be as prescriptive as possible. Really, be as prescriptive as possible. Really, what you want to do is you want to kind what you want to do is you want to kind what you want to do is you want to kind of go through like an influence mapping of go through like an influence mapping of go through like an influence mapping exercise where you're trying to figure exercise where you're trying to figure exercise where you're trying to figure out what are all the things, the out what are all the things, the out what are all the things, the channels, the people, the sources of channels, the people, the sources of channels, the people, the sources of content that your target market pays content that your target market pays content that your target market pays attention to, where they give their time attention to, where they give their time attention to, where they give their time and energy and attention. Uh, you know, and energy and attention. Uh, you know, and energy and attention. Uh, you know, where do their eyeballs go? What do they where do their eyeballs go? What do they where do their eyeballs go? What do they spend time online on their phone or on spend time online on their phone or on spend time online on their phone or on their desktop researching, learning, their desktop researching, learning, their desktop researching, learning, educating themselves, hanging out educating themselves, hanging out educating themselves, hanging out online? where the the digital watering online? where the the digital watering online? where the the digital watering holes as it were of sort of where you holes as it were of sort of where you holes as it were of sort of where you can find those types of people. Um and can find those types of people. Um and can find those types of people. Um and then how do you find ways to get in then how do you find ways to get in then how do you find ways to get in front of them in an authentic and front of them in an authentic and front of them in an authentic and compelling way, right? And so maybe compelling way, right? And so maybe compelling way, right? And so maybe there's a couple of uh I don't know there's a couple of uh I don't know there's a couple of uh I don't know online publications or magazines or um online publications or magazines or um online publications or magazines or um uh if they're I'm trying to like speak uh if they're I'm trying to like speak uh if they're I'm trying to like speak in a little bit like you know old school in a little bit like you know old school in a little bit like you know old school kind of marketing tactics. If it's maybe

kind of marketing tactics. If it's maybe kind of marketing tactics. If it's maybe like a an older um more analog industry like a an older um more analog industry like a an older um more analog industry maybe like insurance or insurance tech maybe like insurance or insurance tech maybe like insurance or insurance tech maybe not, right? But just think about maybe not, right? But just think about maybe not, right? But just think about what are all the things that they pay what are all the things that they pay what are all the things that they pay attention to. A really easy way to do attention to. A really easy way to do attention to. A really easy way to do that is you can run a survey to your that is you can run a survey to your that is you can run a survey to your existing customers if you have some. Uh existing customers if you have some. Uh existing customers if you have some. Uh you can also just do some online you can also just do some online you can also just do some online soothing looking through you know doing soothing looking through you know doing soothing looking through you know doing uh Google searches and asking friends of uh Google searches and asking friends of uh Google searches and asking friends of friends. Um kind of just doing research friends. Um kind of just doing research friends. Um kind of just doing research online of where these people hang out online of where these people hang out online of where these people hang out what what sort of uh even doing like what what sort of uh even doing like what what sort of uh even doing like keyword research in a tool like hrefs or keyword research in a tool like hrefs or keyword research in a tool like hrefs or Uber suggest typing in keywords like you Uber suggest typing in keywords like you Uber suggest typing in keywords like you know insurance uh tech or like common know insurance uh tech or like common know insurance uh tech or like common keywords of what people have searched keywords of what people have searched keywords of what people have searched for. So, how to do X Y and Z that's for. So, how to do X Y and Z that's for. So, how to do X Y and Z that's related to your industry. Um, or even related to your industry. Um, or even related to your industry. Um, or even just doing video calls with those just doing video calls with those just doing video calls with those customers or with uh people even like customers or with uh people even like customers or with uh people even like podcasters in the industry or people who podcasters in the industry or people who podcasters in the industry or people who are influencers or content creators in are influencers or content creators in are influencers or content creators in that space. They normally have speaking that space. They normally have speaking that space. They normally have speaking from experience a good kind of lay of from experience a good kind of lay of from experience a good kind of lay of the land and good perspective and the land and good perspective and the land and good perspective and opinions about who all the players are, opinions about who all the players are, opinions about who all the players are, what people care about, um, what other what people care about, um, what other what people care about, um, what other source of content or influences uh, are source of content or influences uh, are source of content or influences uh, are in the market that you can use to tap in the market that you can use to tap in the market that you can use to tap into. And uh you can either pay to play, into. And uh you can either pay to play, into. And uh you can either pay to play, you can sponsor, you can advertise, you you can sponsor, you can advertise, you you can sponsor, you can advertise, you can build some sort of revenue share or can build some sort of revenue share or can build some sort of revenue share or affiliate relationship with those uh affiliate relationship with those uh affiliate relationship with those uh sources of influence or you can do a sources of influence or you can do a sources of influence or you can do a more um sort of uh collaborative effort more um sort of uh collaborative effort more um sort of uh collaborative effort and by creating content for them uh with and by creating content for them uh with and by creating content for them uh with them, you can show up in those them, you can show up in those them, you can show up in those communities, you can show up in those communities, you can show up in those communities, you can show up in those dig digital watering holes, you can get dig digital watering holes, you can get dig digital watering holes, you can get uh a column in one of those um uh a column in one of those um uh a column in one of those um publications or magazines or whatever it publications or magazines or whatever it publications or magazines or whatever it might be. you can show up at the

might be. you can show up at the might be. you can show up at the conferences and that becomes your conferences and that becomes your conferences and that becomes your marketing strategy, right? It's just marketing strategy, right? It's just marketing strategy, right? It's just show up where they are and then whittle show up where they are and then whittle show up where they are and then whittle it down to what are the most effective it down to what are the most effective it down to what are the most effective ways to show up to make a compelling ways to show up to make a compelling ways to show up to make a compelling case to those people. And uh now you've case to those people. And uh now you've case to those people. And uh now you've got a marketing plan got a marketing plan got a marketing plan that I I I love a that you just went that I I I love a that you just went that I I I love a that you just went that deep on it. And the other thing is that deep on it. And the other thing is that deep on it. And the other thing is as you were talking I was thinking to as you were talking I was thinking to as you were talking I was thinking to myself, what would I what would I do if myself, what would I what would I do if myself, what would I what would I do if I was this? And I made this list and I was this? And I made this list and I was this? And I made this list and it's a bunch of stuff that you just it's a bunch of stuff that you just it's a bunch of stuff that you just said. Basically, it's I'm not sure I'm said. Basically, it's I'm not sure I'm said. Basically, it's I'm not sure I'm not sure you covered cold. like I not sure you covered cold. like I not sure you covered cold. like I thought of cold email, cold calls, cold thought of cold email, cold calls, cold thought of cold email, cold calls, cold LinkedIn outreach, right? So that's one. LinkedIn outreach, right? So that's one. LinkedIn outreach, right? So that's one. Um you mentioned inerson events because Um you mentioned inerson events because Um you mentioned inerson events because I you know with tiny seed companies and I you know with tiny seed companies and I you know with tiny seed companies and even with micro companies like there are even with micro companies like there are even with micro companies like there are folks who are targeting legal, who are folks who are targeting legal, who are folks who are targeting legal, who are targeting insurance agents, who are targeting insurance agents, who are targeting insurance agents, who are targeting small private movie theaters targeting small private movie theaters targeting small private movie theaters that are not corporately owned, you that are not corporately owned, you that are not corporately owned, you know, I mean just this they're not know, I mean just this they're not know, I mean just this they're not online really. And so this is these are online really. And so this is these are online really. And so this is these are the things you have to do. Inerson the things you have to do. Inerson the things you have to do. Inerson events, there's usually a trade event. events, there's usually a trade event. events, there's usually a trade event. There's a few during the year. Um SEO There's a few during the year. Um SEO There's a few during the year. Um SEO you mentioned partnerships and bisdev is you mentioned partnerships and bisdev is you mentioned partnerships and bisdev is another one that I think is is probably another one that I think is is probably another one that I think is is probably underutilized in a lot of these spaces.

underutilized in a lot of these spaces. underutilized in a lot of these spaces. Someone somewhere has the the these Someone somewhere has the the these Someone somewhere has the the these folks ear like lawyers you know you and folks ear like lawyers you know you and folks ear like lawyers you know you and I wouldn't know this but there's a I wouldn't know this but there's a I wouldn't know this but there's a website called the lawyerist website called the lawyerist website called the lawyerist and it is this big education brand. They and it is this big education brand. They and it is this big education brand. They have courses and they have stuff. The have courses and they have stuff. The have courses and they have stuff. The only reason I know is I know the only reason I know is I know the only reason I know is I know the founder. He lives in Minneapolis. We founder. He lives in Minneapolis. We founder. He lives in Minneapolis. We hang out. We have you know lunch hang out. We have you know lunch hang out. We have you know lunch sometimes. But now that I know that, sometimes. But now that I know that, sometimes. But now that I know that, every time I talk to someone in legal every time I talk to someone in legal every time I talk to someone in legal software, they're like, "Oh, yeah, the software, they're like, "Oh, yeah, the software, they're like, "Oh, yeah, the lawyerist. We know that." So, can you lawyerist. We know that." So, can you lawyerist. We know that." So, can you write for the lawyerist? Can you I You write for the lawyerist? Can you I You write for the lawyerist? Can you I You can sponsor the lawyerist. Um there are can sponsor the lawyerist. Um there are can sponsor the lawyerist. Um there are trade pubs. Are there agencies that do trade pubs. Are there agencies that do trade pubs. Are there agencies that do marketing work or web work for marketing work or web work for marketing work or web work for this space? Again, it's lawyers or if this space? Again, it's lawyers or if this space? Again, it's lawyers or if it's um home improvement contractor, it's um home improvement contractor, it's um home improvement contractor, like who who has at least 10 or 20 of like who who has at least 10 or 20 of like who who has at least 10 or 20 of those on their list? Thousands would be those on their list? Thousands would be those on their list? Thousands would be great, but who has at least a few? and great, but who has at least a few? and great, but who has at least a few? and how can you gather those people? You how can you gather those people? You how can you gather those people? You know, that's how I be thinking about it. know, that's how I be thinking about it. know, that's how I be thinking about it. That's a good question. That's a good question. That's a good question. It's it's one that I don't, you know, we It's it's one that I don't, you know, we It's it's one that I don't, you know, we don't often get asked, but I think there don't often get asked, but I think there don't often get asked, but I think there there are a lot of ways to do it. And there are a lot of ways to do it. And there are a lot of ways to do it. And yeah, it's not Twitter and it's probably yeah, it's not Twitter and it's probably yeah, it's not Twitter and it's probably not Google paperclick ads. You know, not Google paperclick ads. You know, not Google paperclick ads. You know, it's going to be you're going to have to it's going to be you're going to have to it's going to be you're going to have to get get more creative with it.

get get more creative with it. get get more creative with it. That's Go ahead. you have anything else That's Go ahead. you have anything else That's Go ahead. you have anything else to add or to add or to add or I was just going to say I a Swifile's I was just going to say I a Swifile's I was just going to say I a Swifile's member actually sells to uh insurance member actually sells to uh insurance member actually sells to uh insurance agents in certain states in the agents in certain states in the agents in certain states in the northeast and we were talking we had a northeast and we were talking we had a northeast and we were talking we had a call I meet with every one of the call I meet with every one of the call I meet with every one of the members that I can and so he's asking me members that I can and so he's asking me members that I can and so he's asking me about kind of uh marketing strategy and about kind of uh marketing strategy and about kind of uh marketing strategy and sometimes it is one of those things sometimes it is one of those things sometimes it is one of those things where like there literally is no uh where like there literally is no uh where like there literally is no uh influence mapping that you can do influence mapping that you can do influence mapping that you can do because those people don't pay attention because those people don't pay attention because those people don't pay attention to anything really they don't go to any to anything really they don't go to any to anything really they don't go to any conferences they don't read any blog conferences they don't read any blog conferences they don't read any blog posts there are no trade publications posts there are no trade publications posts there are no trade publications and so but we what we did find out was and so but we what we did find out was and so but we what we did find out was that all of their sort of uh since that all of their sort of uh since that all of their sort of uh since they're licensed agents in the state, they're licensed agents in the state, they're licensed agents in the state, you can find them fairly easily you can find them fairly easily you can find them fairly easily directly. And so in that case, you just directly. And so in that case, you just directly. And so in that case, you just like I said, you just go DM them on like I said, you just go DM them on like I said, you just go DM them on LinkedIn, you email them, you find their LinkedIn, you email them, you find their LinkedIn, you email them, you find their email address, uh you send them a email address, uh you send them a email address, uh you send them a postcard and you do some like direct postcard and you do some like direct postcard and you do some like direct mailers back to them. Um and that's mailers back to them. Um and that's mailers back to them. Um and that's actually worked really really actually worked really really actually worked really really effectively. So sometimes even just like effectively. So sometimes even just like effectively. So sometimes even just like the most straightforward uh simple the most straightforward uh simple the most straightforward uh simple marketing strategy is the one that ends marketing strategy is the one that ends marketing strategy is the one that ends up being the winner. up being the winner. up being the winner. Read the Ultimate Sales Machine by Chad Read the Ultimate Sales Machine by Chad Read the Ultimate Sales Machine by Chad Holmes if you haven't. I'm not talking Holmes if you haven't. I'm not talking Holmes if you haven't. I'm not talking to you, Cory. I'm talking to the to you, Cory. I'm talking to the to you, Cory. I'm talking to the audience. I I'm sure you know most read audience. I I'm sure you know most read audience. I I'm sure you know most read it, too.

it, too. it, too. It's It's legit. And the He talks about It's It's legit. And the He talks about It's It's legit. And the He talks about the dream finding your dream 100, your the dream finding your dream 100, your the dream finding your dream 100, your dream 100 customers. And then and look, dream 100 customers. And then and look, dream 100 customers. And then and look, maybe for your business, it's dream thou maybe for your business, it's dream thou maybe for your business, it's dream thou 10,000. You need a thousand to, you 10,000. You need a thousand to, you 10,000. You need a thousand to, you know, make your number, whatever it is. know, make your number, whatever it is. know, make your number, whatever it is. Uh he talks about getting that 100 and Uh he talks about getting that 100 and Uh he talks about getting that 100 and um contacting them and first you call um contacting them and first you call um contacting them and first you call and then you email and then you postcard and then you email and then you postcard and then you email and then you postcard and then you lumpy mail. If you've heard and then you lumpy mail. If you've heard and then you lumpy mail. If you've heard of lumpy mail which is where you send of lumpy mail which is where you send of lumpy mail which is where you send something in a in an envelope that's something in a in an envelope that's something in a in an envelope that's you know a calendar or something and so you know a calendar or something and so you know a calendar or something and so it's like lumpy is what they and then it's like lumpy is what they and then it's like lumpy is what they and then you call again and and so you spend you you call again and and so you spend you you call again and and so you spend you know a year courting these people and know a year courting these people and know a year courting these people and you're not going to close them all but you're not going to close them all but you're not going to close them all but they will notice you eventually you know they will notice you eventually you know they will notice you eventually you know but you have to have the price point if but you have to have the price point if but you have to have the price point if you're going to go into these spaces. you're going to go into these spaces. you're going to go into these spaces. You have to have the LTV or the ACV in You have to have the LTV or the ACV in You have to have the LTV or the ACV in order to justify being, you know, order to justify being, you know, order to justify being, you know, spending that much time. spending that much time. spending that much time. Questions are pouring in. So, I want to Questions are pouring in. So, I want to Questions are pouring in. So, I want to cover the rest of your story quickly cover the rest of your story quickly cover the rest of your story quickly because we are going to run out of time. because we are going to run out of time. because we are going to run out of time. I I think we're going to push a little I I think we're going to push a little I I think we're going to push a little long. Are you are you have a few extra long. Are you are you have a few extra long. Are you are you have a few extra minutes? Awesome. minutes? Awesome. minutes? Awesome. I've got as much time as you want. I've got as much time as you want. I've got as much time as you want. Cool. So, the the third step then in Cool. So, the the third step then in Cool. So, the the third step then in your stairstep um was starting this your stairstep um was starting this your stairstep um was starting this community for founders and marketers, community for founders and marketers, community for founders and marketers, which is the member, I'm assuming, the which is the member, I'm assuming, the which is the member, I'm assuming, the membership side of Swipe Files.

membership side of Swipe Files. membership side of Swipe Files. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's gone through a lot Yeah. Yeah. So, it's gone through a lot Yeah. Yeah. So, it's gone through a lot of uh iterations. I would say, you know, of uh iterations. I would say, you know, of uh iterations. I would say, you know, the difficult part about building an the difficult part about building an the difficult part about building an online membership uh however you want to online membership uh however you want to online membership uh however you want to kind of define that. Well, that's that's kind of define that. Well, that's that's kind of define that. Well, that's that's part of the problem. It's really hard to part of the problem. It's really hard to part of the problem. It's really hard to define. Like, there is no single model define. Like, there is no single model define. Like, there is no single model or single best way to do it. Single or single best way to do it. Single or single best way to do it. Single best, you know, product offering or best, you know, product offering or best, you know, product offering or combination of sort of features, if you combination of sort of features, if you combination of sort of features, if you will, for a membership. And so, it's will, for a membership. And so, it's will, for a membership. And so, it's taking me a while to really figure out taking me a while to really figure out taking me a while to really figure out um like what is the product market fit um like what is the product market fit um like what is the product market fit look like for an online membership that look like for an online membership that look like for an online membership that people would pay for? And I'm still people would pay for? And I'm still people would pay for? And I'm still learning that and still making tweaks learning that and still making tweaks learning that and still making tweaks and still uh sort of iterating my way to and still uh sort of iterating my way to and still uh sort of iterating my way to getting closer and closer to what getting closer and closer to what getting closer and closer to what exactly people want and need. Um but I exactly people want and need. Um but I exactly people want and need. Um but I think it's difficult because you think think it's difficult because you think think it's difficult because you think about SAS products and and software and about SAS products and and software and about SAS products and and software and uh it's very utilitarian. It's does this uh it's very utilitarian. It's does this uh it's very utilitarian. It's does this thing do what I need it to or not, thing do what I need it to or not, thing do what I need it to or not, right? And if it doesn't, then it's not right? And if it doesn't, then it's not right? And if it doesn't, then it's not worth paying for. If it does, I will worth paying for. If it does, I will worth paying for. If it does, I will gladly pay and I will even pay more if gladly pay and I will even pay more if gladly pay and I will even pay more if it becomes more useful and more helpful it becomes more useful and more helpful it becomes more useful and more helpful over time. Um with a membership, it's over time. Um with a membership, it's over time. Um with a membership, it's not utilitarian. Uh it's a little bit not utilitarian. Uh it's a little bit not utilitarian. Uh it's a little bit more of a journey. It's content. It's more of a journey. It's content. It's more of a journey. It's content. It's information. It's it's empowering in information. It's it's empowering in information. It's it's empowering in some way, but it's a lot more like some way, but it's a lot more like some way, but it's a lot more like emotionally benefit driven than it is emotionally benefit driven than it is emotionally benefit driven than it is just like a strict here's this thing just like a strict here's this thing just like a strict here's this thing that helps you, you know, you're picking that helps you, you know, you're picking that helps you, you know, you're picking up a hammer basically with software.

up a hammer basically with software. up a hammer basically with software. Whereas you're attending uh well quite Whereas you're attending uh well quite Whereas you're attending uh well quite literally like a seminar, right? Or literally like a seminar, right? Or literally like a seminar, right? Or you're picking up a book or you're you're picking up a book or you're you're picking up a book or you're reading content that will uh give you reading content that will uh give you reading content that will uh give you the information you need to go and do the information you need to go and do the information you need to go and do the things and learn how to wield the the things and learn how to wield the the things and learn how to wield the hammer or the saw or whatever it is the hammer or the saw or whatever it is the hammer or the saw or whatever it is the tool that you need. Um, all that to say, tool that you need. Um, all that to say, tool that you need. Um, all that to say, I'm trying to build up context to I'm trying to build up context to I'm trying to build up context to describe all the different sort of describe all the different sort of describe all the different sort of iterations that I've gone through. So, iterations that I've gone through. So, iterations that I've gone through. So, it started with the with the newsletter. it started with the with the newsletter. it started with the with the newsletter. Uh, and basically, I also introduced a Uh, and basically, I also introduced a Uh, and basically, I also introduced a paid newsletter version where um it was paid newsletter version where um it was paid newsletter version where um it was kind of an interesting mechanic that I'm kind of an interesting mechanic that I'm kind of an interesting mechanic that I'm a little bit proud of. I wish it would a little bit proud of. I wish it would a little bit proud of. I wish it would have like scaled further, but I just have like scaled further, but I just have like scaled further, but I just felt like it kind of tapped it out. But felt like it kind of tapped it out. But felt like it kind of tapped it out. But I made it so that the the latest issue I made it so that the the latest issue I made it so that the the latest issue was always free. But then anytime you was always free. But then anytime you was always free. But then anytime you wanted to to access like a previous wanted to to access like a previous wanted to to access like a previous issue of a newsletter, then you have to issue of a newsletter, then you have to issue of a newsletter, then you have to pay for access and become a member. And pay for access and become a member. And pay for access and become a member. And that worked pretty well to get the first that worked pretty well to get the first that worked pretty well to get the first again 100 members. But then after that again 100 members. But then after that again 100 members. But then after that um I was sort of like tapping out the um I was sort of like tapping out the um I was sort of like tapping out the potential of the newsletter growth and I potential of the newsletter growth and I potential of the newsletter growth and I figured well with these numbers if I'm figured well with these numbers if I'm figured well with these numbers if I'm converting uh you know 100 members from converting uh you know 100 members from converting uh you know 100 members from at that time I think it was about 2,000 at that time I think it was about 2,000 at that time I think it was about 2,000 subscribers total then in order for me subscribers total then in order for me subscribers total then in order for me to get to a th000 I need to get to you to get to a th000 I need to get to you to get to a th000 I need to get to you know 16,000. That just felt like a long know 16,000. That just felt like a long know 16,000. That just felt like a long road and a grind. And I was also feeling road and a grind. And I was also feeling road and a grind. And I was also feeling kind of like the, you know, being on the kind of like the, you know, being on the kind of like the, you know, being on the hamster wheel on the treadmill of just hamster wheel on the treadmill of just hamster wheel on the treadmill of just creating stuff week after week after creating stuff week after week after creating stuff week after week after week and trying to put out my best stuff week and trying to put out my best stuff week and trying to put out my best stuff and some things would do really well and and some things would do really well and and some things would do really well and kind of go a little bit viral. Some kind of go a little bit viral. Some kind of go a little bit viral. Some things would just fall completely flat.

things would just fall completely flat. things would just fall completely flat. And so anyways, I wanted to find And so anyways, I wanted to find And so anyways, I wanted to find something else. So then I started the something else. So then I started the something else. So then I started the community and the community was going to community and the community was going to community and the community was going to be now like this added benefit to where be now like this added benefit to where be now like this added benefit to where when you became a paid member of the when you became a paid member of the when you became a paid member of the newsletter, you also get access to the newsletter, you also get access to the newsletter, you also get access to the swiles community and so it's like-minded swiles community and so it's like-minded swiles community and so it's like-minded people and but really there was no like people and but really there was no like people and but really there was no like hook in there and so I spent a while a hook in there and so I spent a while a hook in there and so I spent a while a good long time maybe like 8 months just good long time maybe like 8 months just good long time maybe like 8 months just trying to figure out what else can I add trying to figure out what else can I add trying to figure out what else can I add to this? um how can I get people from to this? um how can I get people from to this? um how can I get people from the newsletter to the community to then the newsletter to the community to then the newsletter to the community to then the courses what I which I can upsell the courses what I which I can upsell the courses what I which I can upsell and uh and then I joined a mastermind and uh and then I joined a mastermind and uh and then I joined a mastermind with a couple other other creators about with a couple other other creators about with a couple other other creators about seven or eight actually I believe we seven or eight actually I believe we seven or eight actually I believe we meet once a month we have some hot seats meet once a month we have some hot seats meet once a month we have some hot seats um and it was in one of those hot seats um and it was in one of those hot seats um and it was in one of those hot seats that I was describing all these things that I was describing all these things that I was describing all these things that I'm talking about about just how that I'm talking about about just how that I'm talking about about just how difficult it is to find product market difficult it is to find product market difficult it is to find product market fit and what's the offering and how do I fit and what's the offering and how do I fit and what's the offering and how do I push people back and forth and they're push people back and forth and they're push people back and forth and they're like look we have after I'd you know like look we have after I'd you know like look we have after I'd you know gone on my whole spiel for about half an gone on my whole spiel for about half an gone on my whole spiel for about half an hour. They were like, "Look, it's hour. They were like, "Look, it's hour. They were like, "Look, it's really, really simple. You need to get really, really simple. You need to get really, really simple. You need to get back to basics. Why aren't you focusing back to basics. Why aren't you focusing back to basics. Why aren't you focusing on SAS marketing? Why aren't you lumping on SAS marketing? Why aren't you lumping on SAS marketing? Why aren't you lumping everything into just one single everything into just one single everything into just one single membership and just going all in on that membership and just going all in on that membership and just going all in on that thing instead of architecting this thing instead of architecting this thing instead of architecting this really big, complex, sophisticated, you really big, complex, sophisticated, you really big, complex, sophisticated, you know, upsell funnel and all these flows know, upsell funnel and all these flows know, upsell funnel and all these flows and all these different paths that and all these different paths that and all these different paths that people are supposed to go down that people are supposed to go down that people are supposed to go down that they're that they're not today." And I they're that they're not today." And I they're that they're not today." And I was like, "Dang it, they're right." So, was like, "Dang it, they're right." So, was like, "Dang it, they're right." So, I have to go do that. Um, so I I have to go do that. Um, so I I have to go do that. Um, so I consolidated everything under one brand, consolidated everything under one brand, consolidated everything under one brand, one membership, all the courses, the one membership, all the courses, the one membership, all the courses, the community, what was the paid newsletter, community, what was the paid newsletter, community, what was the paid newsletter, but now all the archive of the the but now all the archive of the the but now all the archive of the the tearowns and everything else I had done.

tearowns and everything else I had done. tearowns and everything else I had done. There was a few other uh like workshops There was a few other uh like workshops There was a few other uh like workshops and um sort of special like premium and um sort of special like premium and um sort of special like premium piece of content I put in there all up piece of content I put in there all up piece of content I put in there all up under one membership and now it's all under one membership and now it's all under one membership and now it's all focused on SAS marketing which is again focused on SAS marketing which is again focused on SAS marketing which is again my bread and butter. And I think weaving my bread and butter. And I think weaving my bread and butter. And I think weaving like trying to expand outside of that like trying to expand outside of that like trying to expand outside of that also end up hurting me because then it also end up hurting me because then it also end up hurting me because then it was a lot of um kind of like was a lot of um kind of like was a lot of um kind of like overplanning and overengineering like overplanning and overengineering like overplanning and overengineering like well if I write this piece of content well if I write this piece of content well if I write this piece of content how do I make sure that it applies to how do I make sure that it applies to how do I make sure that it applies to SAS and to e-commerce and to info SAS and to e-commerce and to info SAS and to e-commerce and to info products and to marketplaces and it was products and to marketplaces and it was products and to marketplaces and it was just like getting like way too difficult just like getting like way too difficult just like getting like way too difficult too much I yeah I know SAS marketing too much I yeah I know SAS marketing too much I yeah I know SAS marketing really really well. I can tell you very really really well. I can tell you very really really well. I can tell you very quickly how this tactic applies directly quickly how this tactic applies directly quickly how this tactic applies directly to SAS marketing. So that was in to SAS marketing. So that was in to SAS marketing. So that was in September of 2021 and that was like a September of 2021 and that was like a September of 2021 and that was like a huge inflection point because after that huge inflection point because after that huge inflection point because after that just like the offering the way that the just like the offering the way that the just like the offering the way that the way that I described it and so sold it way that I described it and so sold it way that I described it and so sold it become so much more simple. It wasn't become so much more simple. It wasn't become so much more simple. It wasn't like well I have a newsletter and like well I have a newsletter and like well I have a newsletter and there's a paid version and a community there's a paid version and a community there's a paid version and a community and I have these courses and I have this and I have these courses and I have this and I have these courses and I have this coaching component. It's like no no it's coaching component. It's like no no it's coaching component. It's like no no it's a newsletter and it's a membership even a newsletter and it's a membership even a newsletter and it's a membership even though that's like still a little bit though that's like still a little bit though that's like still a little bit difficult to define. It's a newsletter difficult to define. It's a newsletter difficult to define. It's a newsletter and a membership for SAS marketing to and a membership for SAS marketing to and a membership for SAS marketing to help you grow your SAS business. That help you grow your SAS business. That help you grow your SAS business. That can be for founders, that can be for can be for founders, that can be for can be for founders, that can be for marketers. I get pretty much dump marketers. I get pretty much dump marketers. I get pretty much dump everything I can into that thing. But everything I can into that thing. But everything I can into that thing. But there are courses and everything is there are courses and everything is there are courses and everything is revolving around that single uh value revolving around that single uh value revolving around that single uh value proposition right of this is what I will proposition right of this is what I will proposition right of this is what I will help you with and help you with and help you with and it's simplicity and focus that you got it's simplicity and focus that you got it's simplicity and focus that you got and you found it not only in your and you found it not only in your and you found it not only in your product offering but in the positioning product offering but in the positioning product offering but in the positioning of it and then in the niche

of it and then in the niche of it and then in the niche you're focusing on SAS now. It's that you're focusing on SAS now. It's that you're focusing on SAS now. It's that everything was it's like you were everything was it's like you were everything was it's like you were wandering around creating all this stuff wandering around creating all this stuff wandering around creating all this stuff that was kind of working and then that was kind of working and then that was kind of working and then realized you know through your advice realized you know through your advice realized you know through your advice from your mastermind it's like oh I just from your mastermind it's like oh I just from your mastermind it's like oh I just this is so it's that click right where this is so it's that click right where this is so it's that click right where something clicks and it's like this oh something clicks and it's like this oh something clicks and it's like this oh this is going to get me to product this is going to get me to product this is going to get me to product market fit right I bet you knew it the market fit right I bet you knew it the market fit right I bet you knew it the moment moment moment the moment you sat down to like the moment you sat down to like the moment you sat down to like architect and be like well I got to architect and be like well I got to architect and be like well I got to rename this I got to did it start to rename this I got to did it start to rename this I got to did it start to feel like oh man this is the ticket feel like oh man this is the ticket feel like oh man this is the ticket right here right here right here yeah 100% it was the thing that I just I yeah 100% it was the thing that I just I yeah 100% it was the thing that I just I had known but I just didn't want to had known but I just didn't want to had known but I just didn't want to accept because I wanted to do it my way accept because I wanted to do it my way accept because I wanted to do it my way and just sort of of like all these and just sort of of like all these and just sort of of like all these little things that were independently little things that were independently little things that were independently working cuz I felt like that would be working cuz I felt like that would be working cuz I felt like that would be easier in some way, but it really was easier in some way, but it really was easier in some way, but it really was working against me and it was working working against me and it was working working against me and it was working against the business and against my against the business and against my against the business and against my goals. And even like the next step after goals. And even like the next step after goals. And even like the next step after that was they were like, "Hey, you got that was they were like, "Hey, you got that was they were like, "Hey, you got to raise your prices, man. Like 100 to raise your prices, man. Like 100 to raise your prices, man. Like 100 bucks a year is an absolute steal." Like bucks a year is an absolute steal." Like bucks a year is an absolute steal." Like they were like, "How much value are you they were like, "How much value are you they were like, "How much value are you creating by helping people grow their creating by helping people grow their creating by helping people grow their SAS business?" And I was like, "Well, SAS business?" And I was like, "Well, SAS business?" And I was like, "Well, like millions of dollars." You know what like millions of dollars." You know what like millions of dollars." You know what I mean? Like if you add a couple a I mean? Like if you add a couple a I mean? Like if you add a couple a couple thousand dollars in MR to your couple thousand dollars in MR to your couple thousand dollars in MR to your SAS business over time. And when that SAS business over time. And when that SAS business over time. And when that that growth compounds, you're we're that growth compounds, you're we're that growth compounds, you're we're generating million millions of dollars generating million millions of dollars generating million millions of dollars in value and I'm charging a hundred in value and I'm charging a hundred in value and I'm charging a hundred bucks a year. Like it doesn't really bucks a year. Like it doesn't really bucks a year. Like it doesn't really make any sense. Um so then it also make any sense. Um so then it also make any sense. Um so then it also created a couple of uh price increases.

created a couple of uh price increases. created a couple of uh price increases. Finally got the price to where it is Finally got the price to where it is Finally got the price to where it is today at $500 a year, which is still today at $500 a year, which is still today at $500 a year, which is still they really wanted me to go to like they really wanted me to go to like they really wanted me to go to like $1,000, $2,000 a year. I thought, you $1,000, $2,000 a year. I thought, you $1,000, $2,000 a year. I thought, you know what, I'm going to start here and know what, I'm going to start here and know what, I'm going to start here and then maybe once I start to like push then maybe once I start to like push then maybe once I start to like push against like what's the maximum number against like what's the maximum number against like what's the maximum number of people I can support, then I'll get of people I can support, then I'll get of people I can support, then I'll get there. Um, but they were also like, hey, there. Um, but they were also like, hey, there. Um, but they were also like, hey, you got to, you know, you don't have to you got to, you know, you don't have to you got to, you know, you don't have to just do memberships. You can also sell just do memberships. You can also sell just do memberships. You can also sell sponsorships. And so that's provided sponsorships. And so that's provided sponsorships. And so that's provided another 50 grand in revenue. You can another 50 grand in revenue. You can another 50 grand in revenue. You can also do affiliates. So I've now been, also do affiliates. So I've now been, also do affiliates. So I've now been, you know, incorporating more of that. you know, incorporating more of that. you know, incorporating more of that. And that provides another 5 to 10 grand And that provides another 5 to 10 grand And that provides another 5 to 10 grand a year in revenue. Um, and now things a year in revenue. Um, and now things a year in revenue. Um, and now things are humming pretty much. Uh, I'm still are humming pretty much. Uh, I'm still are humming pretty much. Uh, I'm still working out some of the tweaks there, working out some of the tweaks there, working out some of the tweaks there, but it feels good to like, you know, but it feels good to like, you know, but it feels good to like, you know, like I have product market fit. I can like I have product market fit. I can like I have product market fit. I can say that. I didn't I don't know. It's say that. I didn't I don't know. It's say that. I didn't I don't know. It's one of those things again you don't know one of those things again you don't know one of those things again you don't know you can't really describe it like you you can't really describe it like you you can't really describe it like you just know if you have it or not. The just know if you have it or not. The just know if you have it or not. The whole product market fit discussion is whole product market fit discussion is whole product market fit discussion is kind of interesting anyways but kind of interesting anyways but kind of interesting anyways but especially for an info product it's just especially for an info product it's just especially for an info product it's just so like ethereal and um difficult to put so like ethereal and um difficult to put so like ethereal and um difficult to put your finger on that you really do have your finger on that you really do have your finger on that you really do have to just you know when it's working or to just you know when it's working or to just you know when it's working or not you know am I proud of selling this not you know am I proud of selling this not you know am I proud of selling this thing and talking about it if yes then I thing and talking about it if yes then I thing and talking about it if yes then I think you have proud market fit. Yeah, I think you have proud market fit. Yeah, I think you have proud market fit. Yeah, I have this new segment on startups with have this new segment on startups with have this new segment on startups with the rest of us. Uh I think it'll start the rest of us. Uh I think it'll start the rest of us. Uh I think it'll start in the next couple episodes. Every in the next couple episodes. Every in the next couple episodes. Every founder comes on, I say, founder comes on, I say, founder comes on, I say, when did you have when did you know you when did you have when did you know you when did you have when did you know you had product market fit? There's a little had product market fit? There's a little had product market fit? There's a little jingle and stuff, but it I'm asking that jingle and stuff, but it I'm asking that jingle and stuff, but it I'm asking that because because because every definition I hear of it, even my every definition I hear of it, even my every definition I hear of it, even my own mine is, you know, you've built own mine is, you know, you've built own mine is, you know, you've built something people want and are willing to something people want and are willing to something people want and are willing to pay for. But even that, it's like, well, pay for. But even that, it's like, well, pay for. But even that, it's like, well, yeah, but you get there, you can get yeah, but you get there, you can get yeah, but you get there, you can get there early and not have product market

there early and not have product market there early and not have product market fit and still have that. Like, it's it's fit and still have that. Like, it's it's fit and still have that. Like, it's it's so hard to define. And uh so I like to so hard to define. And uh so I like to so hard to define. And uh so I like to hear, you know, other people's hear, you know, other people's hear, you know, other people's perspectives on it. perspectives on it. perspectives on it. I need to jump into listener questions. I need to jump into listener questions. I need to jump into listener questions. They are pouring in. So let's do it. They are pouring in. So let's do it. They are pouring in. So let's do it. Um yeah, we can maybe try to lightning Um yeah, we can maybe try to lightning Um yeah, we can maybe try to lightning round these because I think there's four round these because I think there's four round these because I think there's four of them. Okay. of them. Okay. of them. Okay. And we are over time, but people are And we are over time, but people are And we are over time, but people are hanging around asking things. So let's hanging around asking things. So let's hanging around asking things. So let's do it. So Sam on YouTube says, "What do it. So Sam on YouTube says, "What do it. So Sam on YouTube says, "What would be your advice for an absolute SAS would be your advice for an absolute SAS would be your advice for an absolute SAS beginner with a with strong programming beginner with a with strong programming beginner with a with strong programming experience? Where should I start?" I'll experience? Where should I start?" I'll experience? Where should I start?" I'll weigh in on that first and then Cory, weigh in on that first and then Cory, weigh in on that first and then Cory, you can weigh in. So I would say sem it you can weigh in. So I would say sem it you can weigh in. So I would say sem it depends on depends on depends on do you want to learn marketing like is do you want to learn marketing like is do you want to learn marketing like is that something that excites you and you that something that excites you and you that something that excites you and you want to add that to your tool belt. If want to add that to your tool belt. If want to add that to your tool belt. If so, I would start with swipefiles.com. I so, I would start with swipefiles.com. I so, I would start with swipefiles.com. I would enter my email there and then I would enter my email there and then I would enter my email there and then I would, you know, sign up for the paid would, you know, sign up for the paid would, you know, sign up for the paid membership. But seriously, I would membership. But seriously, I would membership. But seriously, I would educate myself, right? I would I would educate myself, right? I would I would educate myself, right? I would I would be in microcom uh connects. I would be be in microcom uh connects. I would be be in microcom uh connects. I would be at, you know, following Corey, Asia, at, you know, following Corey, Asia, at, you know, following Corey, Asia, Oranio, like there are people who know Oranio, like there are people who know Oranio, like there are people who know SAS marketing. But that I will say that SAS marketing. But that I will say that SAS marketing. But that I will say that is a hard road to go if all you've done is a hard road to go if all you've done is a hard road to go if all you've done is coding to date. And the whole idea of is coding to date. And the whole idea of is coding to date. And the whole idea of the stairstep approach is that you have the stairstep approach is that you have the stairstep approach is that you have this skill as a developer. So, if you this skill as a developer. So, if you this skill as a developer. So, if you were to go build a Shopify add-on, a were to go build a Shopify add-on, a were to go build a Shopify add-on, a Heroku add-on, a WordPress plug-in, Heroku add-on, a WordPress plug-in, Heroku add-on, a WordPress plug-in, Build or Acquire, any of these things.

Build or Acquire, any of these things. Build or Acquire, any of these things. You already have the software expertise, You already have the software expertise, You already have the software expertise, you don't have to learn marketing. You you don't have to learn marketing. You you don't have to learn marketing. You can just rank well in, you just have to can just rank well in, you just have to can just rank well in, you just have to learn enough to rank well in their app learn enough to rank well in their app learn enough to rank well in their app store. Now, this business will not be a store. Now, this business will not be a store. Now, this business will not be a $5 million business. But, can it get to $5 million business. But, can it get to $5 million business. But, can it get to 10 grand a month, 15 grand a month, 10 grand a month, 15 grand a month, 10 grand a month, 15 grand a month, allow you to quit your day job? Yes. allow you to quit your day job? Yes. allow you to quit your day job? Yes. I've seen a lot of add-ons, you know, I've seen a lot of add-ons, you know, I've seen a lot of add-ons, you know, app store apps, um, that apply to Tiny app store apps, um, that apply to Tiny app store apps, um, that apply to Tiny Seed, frankly, that are in the 10 to Seed, frankly, that are in the 10 to Seed, frankly, that are in the 10 to 50,000 a month range. Now, these are not 50,000 a month range. Now, these are not 50,000 a month range. Now, these are not venturebackable crazy startups, but venturebackable crazy startups, but venturebackable crazy startups, but that's not what you want. You want the that's not what you want. You want the that's not what you want. You want the first step of the stairst step, which is first step of the stairst step, which is first step of the stairst step, which is to, you know, first two steps, which is to, you know, first two steps, which is to, you know, first two steps, which is to basically buy out your time. So, to basically buy out your time. So, to basically buy out your time. So, those are kind of the two ways I would those are kind of the two ways I would those are kind of the two ways I would think about it. Corey, what do you have think about it. Corey, what do you have think about it. Corey, what do you have to add? to add? to add? Yeah, I would uh I would say you want to Yeah, I would uh I would say you want to Yeah, I would uh I would say you want to know enough to be dangerous and to know know enough to be dangerous and to know know enough to be dangerous and to know what you're looking for. what you're looking for. what you're looking for. uh to kind of scrape and claw your way uh to kind of scrape and claw your way uh to kind of scrape and claw your way to your first, you know, customers. to your first, you know, customers. to your first, you know, customers. Honestly though, um I I'm maybe in like Honestly though, um I I'm maybe in like Honestly though, um I I'm maybe in like a it's maybe like a controversial take a it's maybe like a controversial take a it's maybe like a controversial take in some ways, but I'm of the opinion in some ways, but I'm of the opinion in some ways, but I'm of the opinion that you should be working really really that you should be working really really that you should be working really really hard in your circle of competence and hard in your circle of competence and hard in your circle of competence and like in your zone of genius. And I think like in your zone of genius. And I think like in your zone of genius. And I think that one of the things that we forget that one of the things that we forget that one of the things that we forget about in this whole conversation around about in this whole conversation around about in this whole conversation around bootstrapping and uh and you know bootstrapping and uh and you know bootstrapping and uh and you know building a profitable SAS business and building a profitable SAS business and building a profitable SAS business and stairstepping and like building a stairstepping and like building a stairstepping and like building a business that supports your lifestyle is business that supports your lifestyle is business that supports your lifestyle is you want to be doing things that you you want to be doing things that you you want to be doing things that you actually enjoy and that you like doing actually enjoy and that you like doing actually enjoy and that you like doing day-to-day. And my hunch is that day-to-day. And my hunch is that day-to-day. And my hunch is that marketing probably isn't in that uh marketing probably isn't in that uh marketing probably isn't in that uh equation of what are things that you equation of what are things that you equation of what are things that you like to do. It's probably more in the like to do. It's probably more in the like to do. It's probably more in the programming, design, architecture, programming, design, architecture, programming, design, architecture, engineering, uh product word, customer

engineering, uh product word, customer engineering, uh product word, customer research. And if you don't like doing research. And if you don't like doing research. And if you don't like doing it, then don't do it. Get a co-founder. it, then don't do it. Get a co-founder. it, then don't do it. Get a co-founder. Get someone who or again know what Get someone who or again know what Get someone who or again know what you're looking for so you can go and you're looking for so you can go and you're looking for so you can go and hire someone once you have somebody to hire someone once you have somebody to hire someone once you have somebody to work with who can do the marketing for work with who can do the marketing for work with who can do the marketing for you like Dererick has done with me. And you like Dererick has done with me. And you like Dererick has done with me. And that will make your life a lot easier, a that will make your life a lot easier, a that will make your life a lot easier, a lot more enjoyable. Uh you can work in lot more enjoyable. Uh you can work in lot more enjoyable. Uh you can work in your sort of circle of competence, your your sort of circle of competence, your your sort of circle of competence, your zone of genius. And that way um you zone of genius. And that way um you zone of genius. And that way um you don't have to compromise because I mean don't have to compromise because I mean don't have to compromise because I mean Robbie you might have an opinion here Robbie you might have an opinion here Robbie you might have an opinion here but I think that especially for software but I think that especially for software but I think that especially for software there are two very distinct jobs that there are two very distinct jobs that there are two very distinct jobs that both require full-time attention and both require full-time attention and both require full-time attention and that is building the software and that is building the software and that is building the software and selling the software. It's really really selling the software. It's really really selling the software. It's really really hard to straddle and do both of those hard to straddle and do both of those hard to straddle and do both of those things. The best advice that I've heard things. The best advice that I've heard things. The best advice that I've heard from people who do do that and there are from people who do do that and there are from people who do do that and there are technical founders who are solo founders technical founders who are solo founders technical founders who are solo founders is they tell you do like a week on week is they tell you do like a week on week is they tell you do like a week on week off where one week you're doing off where one week you're doing off where one week you're doing programming, one week you're doing programming, one week you're doing programming, one week you're doing marketing. you're doing two jobs at once marketing. you're doing two jobs at once marketing. you're doing two jobs at once part-time, right? And so that's really part-time, right? And so that's really part-time, right? And so that's really really difficult. I feel like that kind really difficult. I feel like that kind really difficult. I feel like that kind of caps your your potential and also of caps your your potential and also of caps your your potential and also it's kind of a recipe for burnout, I it's kind of a recipe for burnout, I it's kind of a recipe for burnout, I think, for a lot of people. And um they think, for a lot of people. And um they think, for a lot of people. And um they might tell you that if you ask them, but might tell you that if you ask them, but might tell you that if you ask them, but um I would say, you know, learn enough um I would say, you know, learn enough um I would say, you know, learn enough to be dangerous so you can hire someone to be dangerous so you can hire someone to be dangerous so you can hire someone and outsource uh specialists for certain and outsource uh specialists for certain and outsource uh specialists for certain areas that you know are work or areas that you know are work or areas that you know are work or promising if if it's SEO or if it's promising if if it's SEO or if it's promising if if it's SEO or if it's sales or if it's partnerships or sales or if it's partnerships or sales or if it's partnerships or whatever that looks like. or find a whatever that looks like. or find a whatever that looks like. or find a co-founder who can do the the marketing co-founder who can do the the marketing co-founder who can do the the marketing for you. Trust me, there are plenty of for you. Trust me, there are plenty of for you. Trust me, there are plenty of people like me who are not product people like me who are not product people like me who are not product people who are desperate for an amazing people who are desperate for an amazing people who are desperate for an amazing product person, an engineer, a product person, an engineer, a product person, an engineer, a developer, and we're just kind of like developer, and we're just kind of like developer, and we're just kind of like flailing around trying to network,

flailing around trying to network, flailing around trying to network, trying to find the right people. They're trying to find the right people. They're trying to find the right people. They're out there for sure. There are a lot of, out there for sure. There are a lot of, out there for sure. There are a lot of, you know, charlatans you know, charlatans you know, charlatans also. You want to be careful of that as also. You want to be careful of that as also. You want to be careful of that as well. But there are a lot of people like well. But there are a lot of people like well. But there are a lot of people like me who are like, man, if I just had me who are like, man, if I just had me who are like, man, if I just had someone to build the software, like I someone to build the software, like I someone to build the software, like I can sell the crap out of this thing. And can sell the crap out of this thing. And can sell the crap out of this thing. And that just makes both your lives really that just makes both your lives really that just makes both your lives really easy. easy. easy. Good advice. Next question. Matt in Good advice. Next question. Matt in Good advice. Next question. Matt in Micromp Connect. Do you think you can Micromp Connect. Do you think you can Micromp Connect. Do you think you can leaprog some of the earlier steps by leaprog some of the earlier steps by leaprog some of the earlier steps by spending money through a broker like spending money through a broker like spending money through a broker like Quiet Light, FE International or through Quiet Light, FE International or through Quiet Light, FE International or through Micro Acquire? Or can or can should you Micro Acquire? Or can or can should you Micro Acquire? Or can or can should you spend money on the earlier steps as spend money on the earlier steps as spend money on the earlier steps as well? I'm not sure I understand the well? I'm not sure I understand the well? I'm not sure I understand the latter part of the question. So my my latter part of the question. So my my latter part of the question. So my my take yes, I absolutely did this. I take yes, I absolutely did this. I take yes, I absolutely did this. I jumped to product market fit like four jumped to product market fit like four jumped to product market fit like four times because I bought apps and some of times because I bought apps and some of times because I bought apps and some of them were really small. Um I guess hitto them were really small. Um I guess hitto them were really small. Um I guess hitto was the biggest one. It was 30 grand. So was the biggest one. It was 30 grand. So was the biggest one. It was 30 grand. So and but that had product market fit. and but that had product market fit. and but that had product market fit. It's just no one was marketing it and it It's just no one was marketing it and it It's just no one was marketing it and it was buggy as hell and it was was buggy as hell and it was was buggy as hell and it was infrastructure was going down like twice infrastructure was going down like twice infrastructure was going down like twice a month and so I fixed all that and then a month and so I fixed all that and then a month and so I fixed all that and then marketed it but I didn't have to build marketed it but I didn't have to build marketed it but I didn't have to build something from scratch. something from scratch. something from scratch. I don't know if you have any other I don't know if you have any other I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that Corey.

thoughts on that Corey. thoughts on that Corey. Yeah, it's interesting because even like Yeah, it's interesting because even like Yeah, it's interesting because even like the way that you answer it, it's more of the way that you answer it, it's more of the way that you answer it, it's more of a a marketing question than it is a a a a marketing question than it is a a a a marketing question than it is a a product question, right? And so I think product question, right? And so I think product question, right? And so I think from a product standpoint, 100% you can from a product standpoint, 100% you can from a product standpoint, 100% you can buy your way to product market fit. You buy your way to product market fit. You buy your way to product market fit. You can buy an app that's, you know, already can buy an app that's, you know, already can buy an app that's, you know, already pre-built, looks interesting, looks like pre-built, looks interesting, looks like pre-built, looks interesting, looks like it has a little bit of traction, and it has a little bit of traction, and it has a little bit of traction, and that you sort of already have like, that you sort of already have like, that you sort of already have like, okay, this is an a promising idea that okay, this is an a promising idea that okay, this is an a promising idea that we can expand on and build out and we we can expand on and build out and we we can expand on and build out and we can fix and whatever, but then you can fix and whatever, but then you can fix and whatever, but then you actually have to go and and market it, actually have to go and and market it, actually have to go and and market it, right? So I would say for a a developer right? So I would say for a a developer right? So I would say for a a developer or a programmer, maybe that's not the or a programmer, maybe that's not the or a programmer, maybe that's not the way that you want to go because uh you way that you want to go because uh you way that you want to go because uh you can't like product your way out of that can't like product your way out of that can't like product your way out of that or into growth. um you're still going to or into growth. um you're still going to or into growth. um you're still going to have to do a lot of marketing and in have to do a lot of marketing and in have to do a lot of marketing and in fact especially if you want to like fact especially if you want to like fact especially if you want to like depending on the way that you fund it or depending on the way that you fund it or depending on the way that you fund it or sort of how you uh you pay for it like sort of how you uh you pay for it like sort of how you uh you pay for it like you want to grow so that you have more you want to grow so that you have more you want to grow so that you have more money to work with more resources. Um if money to work with more resources. Um if money to work with more resources. Um if you're a marketer 100%. I mean I think you're a marketer 100%. I mean I think you're a marketer 100%. I mean I think that's actually uh so maybe a couple that's actually uh so maybe a couple that's actually uh so maybe a couple people I know have gone have gotten into people I know have gone have gotten into people I know have gone have gotten into SAS is they they're marketer they have SAS is they they're marketer they have SAS is they they're marketer they have good uh kind of growth chops. Ryan Culp good uh kind of growth chops. Ryan Culp good uh kind of growth chops. Ryan Culp comes to mind where um him and a partner comes to mind where um him and a partner comes to mind where um him and a partner bought FOMO.com. He wasn't a programmer bought FOMO.com. He wasn't a programmer bought FOMO.com. He wasn't a programmer back then, I don't think. Um, and so back then, I don't think. Um, and so back then, I don't think. Um, and so they used like a basically like a um they used like a basically like a um they used like a basically like a um seller financed loan where basically seller financed loan where basically seller financed loan where basically they just they bought it but then they they just they bought it but then they they just they bought it but then they repaid it over time and they used the repaid it over time and they used the repaid it over time and they used the profits to pay a developer to go and profits to pay a developer to go and profits to pay a developer to go and like fix all the issues and build up the like fix all the issues and build up the like fix all the issues and build up the product and then they focused on growing product and then they focused on growing product and then they focused on growing it which allowed them to generate more it which allowed them to generate more it which allowed them to generate more cash flow to then you know reinvest into cash flow to then you know reinvest into cash flow to then you know reinvest into building the product and expanding from building the product and expanding from building the product and expanding from there. Um, so, uh, you know, a yes and

there. Um, so, uh, you know, a yes and there. Um, so, uh, you know, a yes and or a yes, but. or a yes, but. or a yes, but. Yep. All right. Uh, next question. Sean Yep. All right. Uh, next question. Sean Yep. All right. Uh, next question. Sean on microcom connect. Uh, my problem with on microcom connect. Uh, my problem with on microcom connect. Uh, my problem with stairstepping is I have a successful stairstepping is I have a successful stairstepping is I have a successful consulting business. Starting small consulting business. Starting small consulting business. Starting small means focusing on things that are low means focusing on things that are low means focusing on things that are low revenue compared to what I do now. And revenue compared to what I do now. And revenue compared to what I do now. And the time invested can be high, which the time invested can be high, which the time invested can be high, which takes away from consulting. It's a broad takes away from consulting. It's a broad takes away from consulting. It's a broad question. So kick it to the curb if you question. So kick it to the curb if you question. So kick it to the curb if you want, but I keep wondering how the want, but I keep wondering how the want, but I keep wondering how the approach is stairstepping in this approach is stairstepping in this approach is stairstepping in this situation or do I just take the hit in situation or do I just take the hit in situation or do I just take the hit in terms of time and money and start with terms of time and money and start with terms of time and money and start with something small. So I have thoughts on something small. So I have thoughts on something small. So I have thoughts on this. I did this I had a consulting I this. I did this I had a consulting I this. I did this I had a consulting I mean I was just a contractor and I had a mean I was just a contractor and I had a mean I was just a contractor and I had a micro agency and I was billing 120 150 micro agency and I was billing 120 150 micro agency and I was billing 120 150 an hour and then I was going spending an hour and then I was going spending an hour and then I was going spending time working on stuff that was time working on stuff that was time working on stuff that was generating no revenue and it killed me. generating no revenue and it killed me. generating no revenue and it killed me. So a couple things. Number one, you're So a couple things. Number one, you're So a couple things. Number one, you're probably making buckets of money because probably making buckets of money because probably making buckets of money because that's what you do if you're consulting. that's what you do if you're consulting. that's what you do if you're consulting. you should be charging a lot and if you you should be charging a lot and if you you should be charging a lot and if you are then go buy something like that's are then go buy something like that's are then go buy something like that's what I did my first probably two or what I did my first probably two or what I did my first probably two or three successes net invoice and wedding three successes net invoice and wedding three successes net invoice and wedding toolbox or whatever I acquired them no toolbox or whatever I acquired them no toolbox or whatever I acquired them no they were in bad shape and I overpaid it they were in bad shape and I overpaid it they were in bad shape and I overpaid it was 2005 six like there was no none of was 2005 six like there was no none of was 2005 six like there was no none of the stuff we have the infrastructure in the stuff we have the infrastructure in the stuff we have the infrastructure in place was there and I you know made some place was there and I you know made some place was there and I you know made some bad decisions but I turned them around bad decisions but I turned them around bad decisions but I turned them around my back was to the wall I spent 10 11 my back was to the wall I spent 10 11 my back was to the wall I spent 10 11 grand on net invoice and I was like well grand on net invoice and I was like well grand on net invoice and I was like well I have to make this work now because I have to make this work now because I have to make this work now because that's all the money I had in you know that's all the money I had in you know that's all the money I had in you know my bank account my bank account my bank account um um um so number one, acquire to jump ahead or so number one, acquire to jump ahead or so number one, acquire to jump ahead or number two, you know, if I don't know if number two, you know, if I don't know if number two, you know, if I don't know if you're solo or if you have a team. Uh you're solo or if you have a team. Uh you're solo or if you have a team. Uh because you say it's a business. So like because you say it's a business. So like because you say it's a business. So like if you have a whole team of people, I if you have a whole team of people, I if you have a whole team of people, I would just fork one person off and I um would just fork one person off and I um would just fork one person off and I um I probably would go after an app store I probably would go after an app store I probably would go after an app store thing. That's just such a it's such an

thing. That's just such a it's such an thing. That's just such a it's such an easy opportunity these days. Um but you easy opportunity these days. Um but you easy opportunity these days. Um but you know, if you want to be more ambitious, know, if you want to be more ambitious, know, if you want to be more ambitious, you go after the full SAS, but then it's you go after the full SAS, but then it's you go after the full SAS, but then it's like, all right, so now I have one like, all right, so now I have one like, all right, so now I have one developer working on this, probably developer working on this, probably developer working on this, probably part-time as other consulting stuff part-time as other consulting stuff part-time as other consulting stuff comes in. who's going to then market comes in. who's going to then market comes in. who's going to then market that? Like that's still the thing is that? Like that's still the thing is that? Like that's still the thing is like if you don't know how to market and like if you don't know how to market and like if you don't know how to market and sell a product, a SAS product, that's sell a product, a SAS product, that's sell a product, a SAS product, that's still a big gap and that's what these still a big gap and that's what these still a big gap and that's what these this step one of the stairst step can, this step one of the stairst step can, this step one of the stairst step can, you know, can help you with. What are you know, can help you with. What are you know, can help you with. What are your thoughts, Corey? Yeah, I'll offer a your thoughts, Corey? Yeah, I'll offer a your thoughts, Corey? Yeah, I'll offer a different interpretation of maybe where different interpretation of maybe where different interpretation of maybe where he's coming from and say uh if he's he's coming from and say uh if he's he's coming from and say uh if he's consulting now, a successful consulting now, a successful consulting now, a successful consultancy, um then maybe he does sort consultancy, um then maybe he does sort consultancy, um then maybe he does sort of what I've done with Savvy Cal and you of what I've done with Savvy Cal and you of what I've done with Savvy Cal and you go more part-time and that way you split go more part-time and that way you split go more part-time and that way you split your time still paying the bills cuz you your time still paying the bills cuz you your time still paying the bills cuz you can charge a lot consulting and uh maybe can charge a lot consulting and uh maybe can charge a lot consulting and uh maybe you're not making buckets of money and you're not making buckets of money and you're not making buckets of money and uh you're not living the high life uh you're not living the high life uh you're not living the high life anymore, but you're spending your time anymore, but you're spending your time anymore, but you're spending your time on things that are enjoyable and fun and on things that are enjoyable and fun and on things that are enjoyable and fun and rewarding and that will pay off later rewarding and that will pay off later rewarding and that will pay off later down the road. you can kind of delay down the road. you can kind of delay down the road. you can kind of delay some gratification or uh maybe you can some gratification or uh maybe you can some gratification or uh maybe you can productize that consultancy. In fact, I productize that consultancy. In fact, I productize that consultancy. In fact, I think maybe Rob you can correct me if think maybe Rob you can correct me if think maybe Rob you can correct me if I'm wrong, but kind of one of the steps, I'm wrong, but kind of one of the steps, I'm wrong, but kind of one of the steps, right, is or one of the options for that right, is or one of the options for that right, is or one of the options for that second step is you can productize that's second step is you can productize that's second step is you can productize that's right right right what you're doing manually. And I would what you're doing manually. And I would what you're doing manually. And I would say there's a very clear path to uh like say there's a very clear path to uh like say there's a very clear path to uh like doing something as a consulting function doing something as a consulting function doing something as a consulting function and then productizing that thing and and then productizing that thing and and then productizing that thing and then then then um like sassifying that same thing. So, um like sassifying that same thing. So, um like sassifying that same thing. So, for example, if you're doing uh content for example, if you're doing uh content for example, if you're doing uh content marketing as a consultant and you're marketing as a consultant and you're marketing as a consultant and you're just writing articles and then you can just writing articles and then you can just writing articles and then you can productize that and you can do a you productize that and you can do a you productize that and you can do a you know sort of like an audience ops Brian know sort of like an audience ops Brian know sort of like an audience ops Brian Castle play or uh even like a content

Castle play or uh even like a content Castle play or uh even like a content marketing agency out of that you can marketing agency out of that you can marketing agency out of that you can spin out products or you can even say spin out products or you can even say spin out products or you can even say what do we do best we can build a tool what do we do best we can build a tool what do we do best we can build a tool around that that maybe maybe it's an AI around that that maybe maybe it's an AI around that that maybe maybe it's an AI copyrightiting tool or maybe it's some copyrightiting tool or maybe it's some copyrightiting tool or maybe it's some sort of tool to help with SEO maybe it's sort of tool to help with SEO maybe it's sort of tool to help with SEO maybe it's a tool to um sort of uh streamline the a tool to um sort of uh streamline the a tool to um sort of uh streamline the processes that you use in your agency uh processes that you use in your agency uh processes that you use in your agency uh to efficiently pump out a lot of content to efficiently pump out a lot of content to efficiently pump out a lot of content that ranks well in Google, right? And so that ranks well in Google, right? And so that ranks well in Google, right? And so I think maybe there's there's steps up I think maybe there's there's steps up I think maybe there's there's steps up from consultancy that can lead you uh to from consultancy that can lead you uh to from consultancy that can lead you uh to your end goal of building SAS or kind of your end goal of building SAS or kind of your end goal of building SAS or kind of going further up the the steps or you going further up the the steps or you going further up the the steps or you can kind of scale it back and then you can kind of scale it back and then you can kind of scale it back and then you can just spend time doing things that can just spend time doing things that can just spend time doing things that you enjoy. And you know, if you're just you enjoy. And you know, if you're just you enjoy. And you know, if you're just optimizing for for money, then like optimizing for for money, then like optimizing for for money, then like don't stop consulting. But if you want don't stop consulting. But if you want don't stop consulting. But if you want to optimize for lifestyle and the work to optimize for lifestyle and the work to optimize for lifestyle and the work you enjoy and something that does have you enjoy and something that does have you enjoy and something that does have recurring revenue from a product, then recurring revenue from a product, then recurring revenue from a product, then of course you want to build something of course you want to build something of course you want to build something else, right? Even though you might take else, right? Even though you might take else, right? Even though you might take a hit financially, a hit financially, a hit financially, you're going to take a big dip. This is you're going to take a big dip. This is you're going to take a big dip. This is from, you know, full-time work to moving from, you know, full-time work to moving from, you know, full-time work to moving to products. Like almost everyone I to products. Like almost everyone I to products. Like almost everyone I know, if you unless you raise funding, know, if you unless you raise funding, know, if you unless you raise funding, you take this hit in income and it can you take this hit in income and it can you take this hit in income and it can take you years, two, three, five years take you years, two, three, five years take you years, two, three, five years to get back to the point where now, oh, to get back to the point where now, oh, to get back to the point where now, oh, I'm finally making as much as I was back I'm finally making as much as I was back I'm finally making as much as I was back then. But you have the freedom, you have then. But you have the freedom, you have then. But you have the freedom, you have purpose, you have relationships, all the purpose, you have relationships, all the purpose, you have relationships, all the things that I talk about. It's it's the things that I talk about. It's it's the things that I talk about. It's it's the lifestyle, you know, and so if you're lifestyle, you know, and so if you're lifestyle, you know, and so if you're optim like you, I love it the way you optim like you, I love it the way you optim like you, I love it the way you said it. If you're optimizing for money, said it. If you're optimizing for money, said it. If you're optimizing for money, keep consulting. You're just probably keep consulting. You're just probably keep consulting. You're just probably going to make more money for the going to make more money for the going to make more money for the foreseeable future and let you know uh foreseeable future and let you know uh foreseeable future and let you know uh versus products. It's going to take a versus products. It's going to take a versus products. It's going to take a while to get back to that point. All while to get back to that point. All while to get back to that point. All right, last two questions and then we'll right, last two questions and then we'll right, last two questions and then we'll wrap. Octavio on YouTube says, "My wrap. Octavio on YouTube says, "My wrap. Octavio on YouTube says, "My software is in German because I live in software is in German because I live in software is in German because I live in Germany, but I want to open it to all

Germany, but I want to open it to all Germany, but I want to open it to all countries. So should I have the website countries. So should I have the website countries. So should I have the website in English or translate it to multiple in English or translate it to multiple in English or translate it to multiple languages? My hot take is I would go languages? My hot take is I would go languages? My hot take is I would go English next and then figure I would not English next and then figure I would not English next and then figure I would not go like hey let's have six languages go like hey let's have six languages go like hey let's have six languages from the start because you know you just from the start because you know you just from the start because you know you just don't I none of the markets are that big don't I none of the markets are that big don't I none of the markets are that big like the English market's going to get like the English market's going to get like the English market's going to get you the next biggest market and then you the next biggest market and then you the next biggest market and then maybe it's probably Spanish after that. maybe it's probably Spanish after that. maybe it's probably Spanish after that. Depends on what your software does so Depends on what your software does so Depends on what your software does so it's a little hard for me to answer but it's a little hard for me to answer but it's a little hard for me to answer but what else do you think? Uh, yeah, I what else do you think? Uh, yeah, I what else do you think? Uh, yeah, I agree completely. From like a a growth agree completely. From like a a growth agree completely. From like a a growth marketing perspective, what you'll see a marketing perspective, what you'll see a marketing perspective, what you'll see a lot of companies do when they're trying lot of companies do when they're trying lot of companies do when they're trying to expand internationally, starting with to expand internationally, starting with to expand internationally, starting with English or like a US-based company, is English or like a US-based company, is English or like a US-based company, is that they'll they'll literally like that they'll they'll literally like that they'll they'll literally like they'll go to one market, maybe Germany they'll go to one market, maybe Germany they'll go to one market, maybe Germany or Spain or uh or or France, and they'll or Spain or uh or or France, and they'll or Spain or uh or or France, and they'll get that all set up. They'll figure out get that all set up. They'll figure out get that all set up. They'll figure out like what's the playbook for for this like what's the playbook for for this like what's the playbook for for this country, and then once they figure that country, and then once they figure that country, and then once they figure that out and they feel like they have some out and they feel like they have some out and they feel like they have some traction and things are working well, traction and things are working well, traction and things are working well, then they'll go to the next one. So, for then they'll go to the next one. So, for then they'll go to the next one. So, for sure, don't do like more than one kind sure, don't do like more than one kind sure, don't do like more than one kind of country expansion at once because of country expansion at once because of country expansion at once because you'll have too many plates in the air you'll have too many plates in the air you'll have too many plates in the air and it just be giant juggling act that and it just be giant juggling act that and it just be giant juggling act that you don't want to deal with. Um, but you don't want to deal with. Um, but you don't want to deal with. Um, but also every country is different. So, you also every country is different. So, you also every country is different. So, you can't treat them the same. Like, oh, can't treat them the same. Like, oh, can't treat them the same. Like, oh, we're just going to expand we're just going to expand we're just going to expand internationally. Like, what does that internationally. Like, what does that internationally. Like, what does that mean, right? have to take each country mean, right? have to take each country mean, right? have to take each country has its own uh norms, rules, um has its own uh norms, rules, um has its own uh norms, rules, um different uh cultural ways of you know different uh cultural ways of you know different uh cultural ways of you know again if you're doing like the influence again if you're doing like the influence again if you're doing like the influence mapping exercise that's everyone's got mapping exercise that's everyone's got mapping exercise that's everyone's got like a different mix of like what's like a different mix of like what's like a different mix of like what's normal how do people normally buy normal how do people normally buy normal how do people normally buy software in that country it's probably software in that country it's probably software in that country it's probably going to differ maybe not like a ton but going to differ maybe not like a ton but going to differ maybe not like a ton but you want to treat it that way just so

you want to treat it that way just so you want to treat it that way just so you have a very personalized experience you have a very personalized experience you have a very personalized experience you're making the most of your money um you're making the most of your money um you're making the most of your money um if you're doing the opposite if you're if you're doing the opposite if you're if you're doing the opposite if you're going from German uh Germany to going from German uh Germany to going from German uh Germany to somewhere else 100% I would start with somewhere else 100% I would start with somewhere else 100% I would start with English, you're going to get the US and English, you're going to get the US and English, you're going to get the US and Canada. Um, or if you have some sort of Canada. Um, or if you have some sort of Canada. Um, or if you have some sort of inroad with another country, maybe like inroad with another country, maybe like inroad with another country, maybe like a neighboring country like France or uh a neighboring country like France or uh a neighboring country like France or uh or even if you want to start with or even if you want to start with or even if you want to start with English, but you want to target more English, but you want to target more English, but you want to target more like the UK for example, and you have like the UK for example, and you have like the UK for example, and you have some sort of connection um some friends, some sort of connection um some friends, some sort of connection um some friends, you know, your network is there, then you know, your network is there, then you know, your network is there, then maybe start there and maybe that's your maybe start there and maybe that's your maybe start there and maybe that's your inroad. Um, but again, go one by one. inroad. Um, but again, go one by one. inroad. Um, but again, go one by one. Don't do more than one at once, Don't do more than one at once, Don't do more than one at once, right? And if he was asking this right? And if he was asking this right? And if he was asking this question in reverse, saying, "I have an question in reverse, saying, "I have an question in reverse, saying, "I have an app in English and I want to, you know, app in English and I want to, you know, app in English and I want to, you know, translate it to Germany or to German translate it to Germany or to German translate it to Germany or to German because I feel like I'm um running out because I feel like I'm um running out because I feel like I'm um running out of uh customers or whatever." I would of uh customers or whatever." I would of uh customers or whatever." I would actually give different advice. I would actually give different advice. I would actually give different advice. I would say don't do that. Um, usually that's say don't do that. Um, usually that's say don't do that. Um, usually that's the wrong choice. Usually the the the wrong choice. Usually the the the wrong choice. Usually the the English speaking market is plenty big English speaking market is plenty big English speaking market is plenty big enough. Once you if I'm going to enough. Once you if I'm going to enough. Once you if I'm going to translate to Spanish or German, translate to Spanish or German, translate to Spanish or German, we often think, oh, I just need the app we often think, oh, I just need the app we often think, oh, I just need the app to be translated and we know how to do to be translated and we know how to do to be translated and we know how to do that. Localization, globalization, easy that. Localization, globalization, easy that. Localization, globalization, easy enough. But no, then you have to enough. But no, then you have to enough. But no, then you have to translate your entire marketing site.

translate your entire marketing site. translate your entire marketing site. You have are you going to support it via You have are you going to support it via You have are you going to support it via email in that language? Are you going to email in that language? Are you going to email in that language? Are you going to have a KB translated to that? Are you have a KB translated to that? Are you have a KB translated to that? Are you going to do sales in that language? Are going to do sales in that language? Are going to do sales in that language? Are you going to translate all your landing you going to translate all your landing you going to translate all your landing pages? Are you going to run ads in that pages? Are you going to run ads in that pages? Are you going to run ads in that language? How do you market in that language? How do you market in that language? How do you market in that language? You know, it's just even like language? You know, it's just even like language? You know, it's just even like I can't go on the podcasts in Germany I can't go on the podcasts in Germany I can't go on the podcasts in Germany because I don't speak German, right? because I don't speak German, right? because I don't speak German, right? It's like I you can't reach those It's like I you can't reach those It's like I you can't reach those people. So anyways, that's a different people. So anyways, that's a different people. So anyways, that's a different question, but it is something that I get question, but it is something that I get question, but it is something that I get asked relatively often. And asked relatively often. And asked relatively often. And yeah, that's a good point. you really yeah, that's a good point. you really yeah, that's a good point. you really only see like the largest SAS companies only see like the largest SAS companies only see like the largest SAS companies who are they've tapped out every other who are they've tapped out every other who are they've tapped out every other marketing channel every other like sales marketing channel every other like sales marketing channel every other like sales function that's like the very last step function that's like the very last step function that's like the very last step is international expansion and then you is international expansion and then you is international expansion and then you see you know the hubspots and the sales see you know the hubspots and the sales see you know the hubspots and the sales forces of the world now they're going forces of the world now they're going forces of the world now they're going and they're building offices in other and they're building offices in other and they're building offices in other countries and they're sort of hopping countries and they're sort of hopping countries and they're sort of hopping around they're might focus on Europe around they're might focus on Europe around they're might focus on Europe first and then APAC and then you know first and then APAC and then you know first and then APAC and then you know vice versa but um yeah that's that's vice versa but um yeah that's that's vice versa but um yeah that's that's definitely a last step I would say definitely a last step I would say definitely a last step I would say Corey Haynes we are way over time but I Corey Haynes we are way over time but I Corey Haynes we are way over time but I appreciate you sticking around to answer appreciate you sticking around to answer appreciate you sticking around to answer those really thoughtful and insightful those really thoughtful and insightful those really thoughtful and insightful uh listener questions. Thanks everyone uh listener questions. Thanks everyone uh listener questions. Thanks everyone in the audience for asking them. Folks in the audience for asking them. Folks in the audience for asking them. Folks want to keep up with you, you are Corey want to keep up with you, you are Corey want to keep up with you, you are Corey Hannes, CEO on Twitter and Hannes, CEO on Twitter and Hannes, CEO on Twitter and swipefiles.com if they want to see what swipefiles.com if they want to see what swipefiles.com if they want to see what you're working on. Thanks so much for you're working on. Thanks so much for you're working on. Thanks so much for joining me, man.

joining me, man. joining me, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's an honor. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's an honor. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's an honor. Awesome. And thank you for sticking Awesome. And thank you for sticking Awesome. And thank you for sticking around and listening to that. Uh it was around and listening to that. Uh it was around and listening to that. Uh it was it was became improv at a certain point it was became improv at a certain point it was became improv at a certain point because there were so many good because there were so many good because there were so many good questions. I didn't want to, you know, questions. I didn't want to, you know, questions. I didn't want to, you know, normally I wrap pretty hard uh right at normally I wrap pretty hard uh right at normally I wrap pretty hard uh right at 30 minutes, but wanted to keep going. 30 minutes, but wanted to keep going. 30 minutes, but wanted to keep going. So, couple announcements before we wrap. So, couple announcements before we wrap. So, couple announcements before we wrap. Microsoft Growth tickets in Minneapolis Microsoft Growth tickets in Minneapolis Microsoft Growth tickets in Minneapolis are on sale. We only have we have less are on sale. We only have we have less are on sale. We only have we have less than 30 tickets available. Um, and today than 30 tickets available. Um, and today than 30 tickets available. Um, and today we announced Don Pottinger from Kevy and we announced Don Pottinger from Kevy and we announced Don Pottinger from Kevy and Langualk will be delivering a keynote on Langualk will be delivering a keynote on Langualk will be delivering a keynote on the extended version of stairstepping to the extended version of stairstepping to the extended version of stairstepping to create a legacy. If you're wondering how create a legacy. If you're wondering how create a legacy. If you're wondering how to grow your business to seven or eight to grow your business to seven or eight to grow your business to seven or eight figures, you need to come to MicroCom figures, you need to come to MicroCom figures, you need to come to MicroCom Growth. um microcom.comgrowth. And as always, thanks to Hey and Stripe And as always, thanks to Hey and Stripe for being our headline partners in 2020, for being our headline partners in 2020, for being our headline partners in 2020, in 2021, and yeah, now again in 2022. in 2021, and yeah, now again in 2022. in 2021, and yeah, now again in 2022. They're super helpful, and they've been They're super helpful, and they've been They're super helpful, and they've been longtime supporters of microcom. So, longtime supporters of microcom. So, longtime supporters of microcom. So, thanks again for joining me. I'll see thanks again for joining me. I'll see thanks again for joining me. I'll see you again in two weeks.